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Play Episode Listen Later Aug 26, 2021 58:58

Females In Business with Rachel Edlich In this episode, Rachel Edlich shares how she started as an entrepreneur, the influence her father had on her success today, her partnership with her sister, how she learned to be a successful product creator and marketer and so much more. Radical Skincare, the business she co-founded with her sister Liz Edlich, is a powerhouse skincare line that can be found in over 900 retail stores and in more than 17 countries. They also have a Brand Partner program that is empowering mostly women and some men, to be successful entrepreneurs in their own right. This was an enjoyable conversation with Rachel and I look forward to interviewing her again down the road at their next successful milestone. Also, check out their book "Get Radical: Secrets to Living a Life You Love": https://amzn.to/3jkyoFD As always, thanks so much for listening! Joe Rachel Edlich Co-founder - Radical Skincare Website: https://radicalskincare.com Discount Code: Costello10 Their Book "Get Radical: Secrets to Living a Life You Love" Our affiliate link: https://amzn.to/3jkyoFD Instagram: @radicalskincare Facebook: @RadicalSkincare YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/radicalskincare Twitter:@radicalskincare LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/radical-skincare Email: customercare@radicalskincare.com Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.libsyn.com Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to: https://joecostelloglobal.lybsyn.com Follow Joe: https://linktr.ee/joecostello Transcript Joe: Rachel, welcome to the show. I'm excited to have you. I thought I might also see this, but I guess Liz is not going to be here with us. So you're going to have to answer all the questions that I have. Rachel: That's great. I'm ready. I'm Joe: Ok, Rachel: Ready. Joe: Ok, OK. First off, the company's name is Radical Skincare. Is that correct? Rachel: That's right. Joe: Ok, this is really cool because I don't have a lot of women on the show as much as I would like to have more women, because I think there's a big separation in the amount of exposure to women that are running, businesses that are successful. So, first of all, thank you so much for coming on the show. Rachel: It's my pleasure, thank you so much for having me here. Joe: Yeah. Awesome. OK, so I always like to get a back story from my guests because I think it's really important that a lot of times podcast will just kick off and people either know the guest that they don't and they'll do a little reading on them and not saying me as the host, but people that might listen to it don't know who someone is. But more importantly, I think how you got to where you are today stems from all that happened before at this point. And I think so much of that is missed on a lot of podcasts. People all of a sudden they just start talking about what they're doing today. And the newest book that they have out and all this other stuff. So if you don't mind, I would love for you to give a little bit of history and you can go back as far as you want. I've had people go back to kindergarten, so I don't care. And and since Liz isn't here, you can also, if you want, put in a little bit about that whole, you know, how it happened with her and you and the connection of all of it. So now I will be quiet and let you click. Rachel: Ok, no problem, while I was going to say how much time do we have? Joe: Yes. Rachel: It's like if I go back to kindergarten. Yeah. So, you know, so for for us, we were raised in Virginia on an 18 acre farm, and our father was a very well known worldwide reconstructive surgeon who specialized in wound healing and skin rejuvenation. And he started the burn unit at University of Virginia. He invented stere strips. He invented dissolvable sutures. So, you know, his commitment was really to science and changing the world like that was my dad and my mom was a bit different. She was an actress on Broadway. She was in West Side Story. But, you know, she basically was just God kissed her and said, you will sing. And so she was in West Side Story, but then decided, hey, I'm going to I'm going to have kids. And then she met my dad. So we were really bookended by two very interesting people. And it was my sister, my brother and I. And growing up on a farm surrounded by my father's brilliance. And we were pretty much we'd go to the hospital with him, work in the lab. We did research with him if there was ever a problem. My dad was like, we'll invent it. See, my brother, my brother broke his clavicle and he's like, we're inventing the shoulder of the perfect shoulder pads. We did. Rachel: I've done I don't know how many research papers on lacrosse injuries because I was a lacrosse player or whatever. So it was like, you know, we we really were raised in that environment all the time. And we got a very, very strong work ethic, because imagine we were basically the ones running a farm as well. So from that, you know, I ended up wanting to really follow being able to help other people. I thought, gosh, I think I might become a therapist, that, you know, that's what I'm going to go and I'm going to I'm good at communicating with other people. I think I read situations really well. So I went to college. My sister went to we all went to actually we all went to the same college. And I got a counseling degree. And then I was like, OK, well, you know, if I really want to sit in a room all day and go through that process. So I ended up running a Boys and girls club for like 800 children. And I love working with kids and developing programs and drug prevention programs and all the different things that the Boys and Girls Club provided. But at the same time, I love to be able to give back that way. I also wanted to make money. Joe: This is. Rachel: I'm like, OK, you know, I love working with children and, you know, especially where a lot of them were in really tough situations. But I said I could do that as my volunteer time. So my sister was living in L.A. and we were always super close. And she's like, well, just come move out here. And it's like, I can't move without a job. You know, it's like having all these reasons why I can't. And I was like, you know what? I'm doing it. I was like, Liz, I can't come without a job. And she's like, well, you know, I just raised money for a company. She was in money management and venture capital, and she was like, and they actually need someone and to run their customer service department. And I was like, I can do that. So, you know, you're young. You Joe: Right. Rachel: Can make me make these big moves. So I packed up my dog in my house and I moved out to L.A. and Liz and I started working together and deciding we were going to start a company. Really wanted to always at the core of us is like it has to be driven with purpose. We have to have like we always need that passion. We're very entrepreneurial because we just can't help ourselves. It's like that's just our nature. So we got into the skincare business and in 1999 and doing, you know, product development, a lot of research, science, of course, you know, coming from a science background with my father, that was that like completely made sense to us. So we started creating products for celebrities, for retailers or QVC, Aitchison, a lot of brand development. So that was kind of our entree into working together. And I know everyone's like the big question is, how do you work with your sister? Joe: It's right, it's tough. Rachel: Everyone's like, how do you guys do it? And we're super blessed. I know we're rare. We're like or like a rare breed, but we're both different in our strengths. So we are able to really complement. Each other and I think there's the bond of our family and that we look after each other. And I mean, that's been probably one of the most special things about our relationship and being in business together, kind of coming into how Radical happened was we were doing our business. We were like at one hundred and fifty million dollars and sales. I mean, we were doing amazing, loving what we were doing. And then I had my second child and I developed rosacea. So, you know, life throws in like little things to move things around, make you start thinking. And I was like, wow, you know, I've always had good skin and my skin was red, splotchy, irritated. I tried putting makeup on. It made it worse. It was the first time where I had actually had this level of insecurity. Like I'd walk into a room and it's like my face walked in first and people I'm like, are they looking at me? Oh, my gosh. They can tell. And, you know, it's like this weird thing that you go through when you're when you're experiencing how you look on the outside matter so much. So you have to like say, OK, it's how you feel on the inside. It's a this is an inside job. You know, work life is not perfect. We don't we're not going to always look perfect. Right. Joe: Mm hmm. Rachel: So, you know, how we feel on the inside is felt by the world. And I went to the dermatologist. They basically said, you'll be on medication for the rest of your life. I'm like, are you joking about it? This is like a little quick fix. You know, you're going to Joe: Right. Rachel: Give me some cream and it's going to be gone and then I'm done. Poof, right. And they're like, no. I was like, oh, great. So I ended up trying on everything they gave me. And my skin was always more inflamed, burning. It was on fire. My face was on fire. And my sister, she's six years older. And since she's not with us, I can always like make her the older sister. Joe: Yes. Rachel: But she Joe: Yeah. Rachel: Is. Joe: There we go, I knew this was going to start sooner Rachel: Yeah, Joe: Or later. Rachel: Exactly. That's what happens when we're not together Joe: That's right. Rachel: On the Joe: That's Rachel: Podcast. Joe: What she gets for not being here. Rachel: Right. Joe: Right. Rachel: Right. So I'll make sure she listens to this. So she's like, Rachel, I'm older than you. It's going to be happening to you, too, but I'm looking in the mirror and gravity is really, truly real. Like this stuff is happening. My skin is just now bouncing back the way I used to, that I wanted it to. And I said, OK, Liz. Well, I guess this is the perfect storm. This is like between the two of us. And I said we have to create the strongest skin care for antiaging, but design for sensitive skin. So thank goodness we had the brilliance of my father and his ability for science and research. And then we got together with a team of chemists and we basically said we are going to put the best of the best in the bottle. We had no intentions of selling it. It wasn't like, oh, we need to be in another skin care business. Not at all. We were like, put the best of the best in the bottle. We didn't care about the cost. We weren't worried about the margins. We weren't worried. We're just like, let's just fix our face. So we got with the scientist, we really started to look at some of the leading reasons for aging skin coming up with solutions for that and coming up with a technology which was our TRALA cell technology, where we're able to deliver all the powerful ingredients to the skin without irritation. Rachel: And after my skin, after just three weeks, my skin completely transformed. I was able to get off all my medication. I'm telling you, it was like adversity brought complete opportunity for us in that moment. And my sister, people were noticing her skin changing. We gave it to friends and family and like little bottles that were like serum moisturizer, you know, it's like in the back of the lab, we're like, okay, here you go. You got a tray. And and people were like calling us like, what is this stuff? So listen, I looked at each other and we said, you know, that's pretty radical. And that's kind of where Radical was born. And we said, you know, our dad always said, if you have an asset sitting on the shelf that no one else knows about, it's not OK. You have to share with the world because there's other people going through what you're going through. You're not in this little world of just Rachel and rosacea. There's millions of people out there that are struggling with rosacea or problematic skin or sensitive skin. And the more research we did, it was like 80 percent of women believe they have sensitive skin. And so they're very particular about what they're putting on their skin and the irritation. So we really took a lot of time and developing our products to make sure they were consciously clean, that we were delivering radical results. Rachel: So we had science behind it. You know, we did clinical on our products because we like to prove out whatever we're going to say. We want to be there with confidence. So we launched in 17 different countries, in over 900 stores and just two years. And Liz and I hit the road and started to work with all the prestige retailers and training. And the interesting thing that we found is this yearning and hunger from all the associates and customers that we talked to about that feeling of were inner self meets. Outer beauty, which is so important to us, is, you know, how we feel on the inside is felt by the world. And we've been really blessed with working with Bob Proctor, who was very close to us and a lot of personal development work where we knew that there was a method to really getting amazing skincare science, to getting radical results. But also there is a technology for creating a life you love. And so we ended up really looking at that closely and listening to people really wanting more there or there are hungry for more purpose and passion in their lives. So that was like our aha moment. And we said when we came back to the states, we're a global so we have a global footprint where in Australia, Switzerland, the UK, all over the place. But in the US, we decided that we were going to buy our products back off of the shelf. Rachel: We we wrote our book, which is "Get Radical: Create Secrets to Creating a Life You Love." And then we said, we're going to buy all of our products back off the retail shelves, take the profit that we normally give to the retailers. Take our science. Take all of our from clinical to all the press that we've gotten over the 11 years and the investment of 20 million dollars into our brand and give that as a turnkey opportunity for others to be able to create passion, purpose, health and wealth. And that's when our brand partner program was born. And we did that. That was kind of like born out of. Covid and a lot of it and and that's just caught on fire because we have the selfcare element, that purpose element. We're a movement that matters. And we always know that if we stay close to our purpose and our passion, Liz and I, we've had moments, we've gotten off track where you're not waking up feeling passionate or purpose driven. Then it's like, OK, OK, I'm going to go do that today. And that was important to us. We wanted to we want to touch millions of people's lives. And we know through our brand partner program, we can touch more people than through any retail store ever. So that's kind of our journey to where we are today. Joe: Well, there's a lot to unpack here, Rachel: I know. Joe: Because any time you can correct me, but I would I would say that this is going to be a unique episode, because for the listeners are out there that are women. This will speak to them more than it will. Guys, I don't even know if you have any men in the brand partner program. Rachel: We do, actually, Joe: Ok, Rachel: We Joe: So Rachel: Do. Joe: See, that's why I wanted to ask you. Rachel: But Joe: Ok. Rachel: It's the majority, a majority of them are women. Yeah. Joe: Ok. And then the products that you have, are they mostly all women? Are there some men? And that's why you have a couple of men and the brand ambassador Rachel: Our Joe: For that. Rachel: Our brand is very unisex Joe: Ok. Rachel: From our packaging all the way through, it delivers amazing results. We do a lot of coaching, even with a lot of the women that are like, oh, what do we offer to the man? And it's like these core products that men just absolutely love. Like we were in Barneys, we were in the men's department there when we launched, and because we did so well and with the men as well. Joe: Ok, so here's the part where we're going to rewind, because Rachel: Ak. Joe: This is this is how I think your story and there's this story and this product and how you did all of this will really help the listeners and especially the women listeners. So you came from a background that was science based because of your father. It sounds like a brilliant man. Is he still with us or is Rachel: No. Joe: Not OK? Rachel: Yeah, my father had multiple sclerosis on top of everything else Joe: Yeah, Rachel: And Joe: I saw that, and Rachel: Yeah. Joe: So I was I was so I didn't know if he was still around, but Rachel: Would Joe: When Rachel: You Joe: You Rachel: Have. Joe: Started this process of wanting to do this with your sister, was he around to help with the initial part of it? Rachel: Yes, Joe: Ok. Rachel: My my dad basically, when I moved to or before I moved to L.A., was saying to my sister, you two need to work together. Like he he's like family. You need to work together. Joe: Right. Well, that's awesome. Okay, cool. So I'm going to put a pin in that one piece of it because I have to come back to that again, because there's more questions than if I Rachel: Sure. Joe: Was listening. I would be like, OK, there's one thing that was a plus for the both of you. Rachel: For sure. Joe: So I'll get to it. I'll explain where I'm going. And I'm sure you Rachel: Ok. Joe: Already understand. Your sister was a stockbroker, an investment banker, a stockbroker, whatever. She she took that route. And then I noticed that there was a company called One World Live. Is that Rachel: Mm Joe: Correct? Rachel: Hmm. That's Joe: Ok, Rachel: Right. Joe: So this is the company that she ended up creating, purchasing, investing, one of those. Right. Rachel: Well, it was actually a company prior to that that she invested money in, and I came out and I worked for that particular company. Joe: Ok. Rachel: But One World Life we created together, and that was really driven from product to we had a lot of celebrities with where we would do merchandising for them with their product. Yeah. So that was where we really got into product development, like the the whole process of making products, whether it was weight loss, whether it was jewelry, whether it was skincare. And that's where we actually had our first experience with skincare at that time. Joe: Ok, so if I was sitting and listening to this, I'd be like, OK, how do two women that are not in this world make this jump into this competitive marketing product delivery business? People usually have some sort of experience that they initially get in that and then they go, hey, I can do this, and then they go out on their own and start it. So explain to me how your system leaves doing the investment banking piece of this. You leave what you're doing and you move out and all of a sudden you're this powerhouse marketing team Rachel: Right. Joe: That has this company. And there's a there's a gap there that I want you to Rachel: Got Joe: Fill Rachel: It. Joe: Forms. Rachel: Ok, so my sister raised money for a company that had a weight loss product. That was the company that I started working for. And I started to learn about infomercials, commercials, direct mail catalog. That was kind of where I first learned like, oh, who was right when infomercials hit in 94, it was like all of a sudden it's like, what's this infomercial thing? And so we. Joe: But wait, there's more. Rachel: Yes, exactly. Hey, you know exactly what I'm talking about, Joe: Yeah. Rachel: And I'm so yeah, so we. I worked for that company and unfortunately the people that were running the company were not doing the right things with the finances. So I told my sister, hey, heads up, my check is bouncing. She's she has investors in the company. So she ended up having to go in and basically take over the company. And that's called like you're just thrown into the waters. You have no idea what you're doing. And it was crazy. She had to sue the company, a lot of the players, and she won, which was unbelievable and won the company. So then we all of a sudden inherited a weight loss company that was doing really, really well. But, you know, we didn't have a lot of experience at the time. So it was something that I do primarily and anything like all my businesses. If I don't know something, I get really smart really quick. And I talk to a lot of people that know a lot more than me. And so like no one Joe: Right. Rachel: Will find someone that knows more than you. Joe: Yeah. Rachel: And so that's what we did. And we worked with different individuals and started to understand the business more and how media spin worked. And I had to manage the media spend and I had to managed print campaigns and I had to buy inventory for all these products. I was like, buy what I like. All right, let's let's break open a spreadsheet and start getting organized. That was point one. But I actually realize I have a I'm super strong at doing those type of like I can operationally managing and dealing with a lot of moving parts and seeing how all the pieces fit together. So, listen, I basically kind of divided and conquered with that particular product. And then we did another weight loss product where we had investors involved in that. And then that launched. And then Liz decided that she was going to go back more into the investment banking. So I took the weight loss product and I went to another company and brought our product with us and had their infrastructure supports our product. But also, it was a great opportunity for me to learn side by side with other people that have been doing it for a long time. So it was for me like that part where we I worked with another company necessarily wasn't necessarily like my happiest time, to be really honest, because a little more entrepreneurial and. But I did that for two years and I was like, I'm going to get so good at all of this. I'm going to be so good. Like I'm going to just be a sponge. Rachel: I'm going to learn. I'm going to learn. I'm going to learn until I feel like I got my arms around this, all these tentacles that were flying around me and feeling proficient in that. And that was a really graceful time of firsts. Sometimes you're feeling and that feeling of uncertainty. And I'm sure everyone up there is gone through that feeling like lack of confidence, whatever it might be in that certain area. But again, I felt like one of the things that Liz and I had done is we surround ourselves with people that are mentors that can help teach and guide and trust me, you're going to pay it forward because there will be a time when someone's going to work for you that you can teach and you can guide. And so from that, I was Liz was doing her thing. So she started is a big thinker, a lot of creative ideas. And she she she and this other person decided we're going to start this company. And she called me up and she's like, rich, like, I can't do it without you. Like I need you. You know how to get it all done. You know, I had to make it all. I'll put all the wheels on the bus and make it go forward. And, you know, you've been in the business. And I actually haven't been in that part of the business. But we're going to kind of do that business again in a different way. And I was like, let's do it in our. So that's how one world was actually created. And. Joe: And what year was that? Rachel: That was in 19, I think it was 1999 is when one world was was created. I Joe: And Rachel: Actually. Joe: When did you when did you move out to L.A. from Virginia? Rachel: 94. Joe: Ok, so five years later is when Rachel: Yes. Joe: This happened, OK, Rachel: Yep. Joe: So you've had all that time. Rachel: Exactly. To Joe: It. OK. Rachel: Learn fast. Joe: Yeah. Have. Rachel: It was like a fire hose experience, like, OK, open Rachel, Joe: Yeah. Rachel: Insert all information. Yeah. So from there, that's when one world leader was born. And we did that for we still have that company. We still have a product line that we have on QVC. And so we had a. And we really had it was the that company was going to we were looking at it as a public, the public traded opportunity to do an IPO. And it was when the technology just fell, fell apart. And we ended up having to really pivot fast because a lot of money was raised for the company. And at that point, we had we had probably almost a hundred employees. We had a lot of VC and investors. And Liz, that was primarily her responsibility to deal with them. But at that point, they just weren't investing. And unless you were a true technology, you know, like you're an app or you're, you know, so we ended up really bringing back through our direct marketing, our direct response. We had we did infomercials the whole time. So we had a lot of things going on. And that's really when we got into the skincare business, it was an infomercial of skincare. And then I developed the whole line, which had about say about 30 skews. So I did all the product development, all the research, creative and just learned, learned a lot about science, working with manufacturers, working with the chemists. Of course, we were fortunate enough with our dad for hours. But the chemists, we started to really learn about product development ingredients, raw materials, clean, clean beauty. And that kind of took us on our journey to Radical. Joe: Ok, so here we go Rachel: Ok. Joe: Is I have to ask because it's I know that even if I was listening to this and I just reframed it to be something that a guy would do, I have ideas all the time. But we stop ourselves because of things that we think are going to be roadblocks. So my first question is, let's talk about your father and the science and all of that without that piece. Some of the audience listeners might be saying to themselves, well, that's that's a huge chunk like that help having that experience, having your father to lean on, having that around you, to be able to start the process of creating products. Because if you start thinking about it, it's like, OK, I'm not going to go in my kitchen and start putting all sorts of things in a little bowl and seeing it smells nice and it works nice and right. So Rachel: Right. Joe: What would you say to any of the women listening? They don't have that science background. They don't have that father with that Rachel: Mm Joe: Brain Rachel: Hmm. Joe: And that intelligence Rachel: Right. Joe: And background. BILLINA. Can they still accomplish this? Rachel: Absolutely. So, yes, we were very blessed, and we we understand that so much. But we also know, like when we were developing products for One World Lives, I was in product development all the time. But I lean on my manufacturers. I wasn't calling my dad saying, hey, dad, like what do you think about this? Because it wasn't personal then. It was just like, oh, I'm creating products for a client and this is what they want. Some of the benefits to be or I look at like what the story is like, what is it that they're trying to say about, you know, themselves and their skincare brand. So it makes like it's makes sense. And then I talk to my manufacturer, who has chemists on staff, and I go and I sit with them and I talk to raw material houses. There's shows that you can go to that have all the raw material houses that go there that are talking about a unique ingredients that they're using. But I find a lot I get a lot from the chemists that are from the manufacturers about what's new, what's hot, what's working, what's an alternative to like we have right now that we just launched are an alternative to a retinol cream, which outperforms retinol without all the side effects. I went I researched, I talked to my chemist. What's what is out there right now? It took us it's not an overnight experience, like, oh, poof, we we just developed a product because then you want to prove the results, right? So you want to have some science. So you have confidence that if you're saying any kind of a claim, that you can substantiate that. So the process for Radical, it was with our dad, but that was like the beginning of the ideas and the science footprint. But I leaned heavily on all of the chemists to really help direct and come up with formulations that we know were going to give radical results. Joe: Ok, great, so I appreciate that answer. Rachel: Yeah. Joe: The next thing that I put a pin in my own mental brain was the money portion of this. Right. None of this has to be divulged. I just but let's say your father was a successful reconstructive surgeon, potentially. He made a good living doing that. At the same time, I know when I read doing my own research that when M.S. came around, that was also a financial burden. Right. So. Rachel: Big Joe: So. Rachel: Time. Joe: Right. So we can just let's say we eliminate that fact that he could have helped you at all. But then you have you have Liz being this smart financial person. So potentially she made a decent amount of money in what she was doing to then be able to back this whole thing. So my second question. Oh, yeah. Well, it's easy when you have a lot of money. You have someone who's able to bring in voices and start out with a chunk of capital and all of that. So can you address that both in either how it helped you and how you still think people can do it without having all of that? Rachel: So a couple of things, I think absolutely you can do it without having all of all of that and the that that we had pretty much for one world. I went to a lot of overhead because we had so many people, because it was such it was the One World Live Web site was really like the hub of what that company was. And so there was a lot of big talent being thrown at that because the VCs wanted to see a certain thing. Right. So in product development, if you want to launch a product, I mean, it can be in skin care, whatever it may be. I know that I can go and create a product with a chemist. I can call packaging companies and get samples of what the packaging might be. And I can come up with a marketing plan. And you you can get small business loans to support you on your initial growth. And I am really believe in a grassroots approach. So Radical has like our new business, which is that our Brand Partners program where we're treating that as a brand new business. So just because our our retail business we have from a global that took us a lot of years to put together and create success that doesn't come into my brand partner like I really keep those separated because I want to have this sitting and standing on its own. We could have gone to raise money. We could have, you know, tried to find people that would invest in it. But for us, we actually didn't want to have to deal with investors. We've done that. There's there is a side to having investors in your company that is a lot of work. So there is something really cool about owning your own company and you owning your own company and not having to answer to five other people and tell them what you're doing and why you know that it's on you. So. Joe: I second that, amen, I Rachel: Yeah, Joe: Say that. Rachel: Trust me, we've we've done it, we've had it where it's been investors and we now we have it where it's our own and we much prefer it as our own. Joe: Mm hmm. Rachel: And we're not willing to bring in money to fund our brand partners program because we want that to be it can be done organically. It might not be as fast as the guy that has five million sitting next to me, but does it have the heart and soul that I have? Does it does it have the you know, the credibility that my brand has? Like there's so many different things and who my audience is. So there's always ways of getting into a business without needing lots and lots of money to do it. You just have to take it slow and bit by bit and grow, you know, have a plan in place that you're you're following into doing your own projections, giving yourself like, OK, you can you can go and get private label products, which sometimes is an interesting way of testing a concept where you don't you can buy 100. You can test it on a Web site. I mean, Joe: Mm Rachel: There's Joe: Hmm. Rachel: So many different ways that you can go through your social media, Bienen, you know, you can be your own influencer and whatever it is that your passion and dream might be. So there's definitely ways of starting your business and not being like, oh, gosh, you need millions and millions of dollars to do it. Joe: Ok, great. I love all these answers, because to me, it's encouraging to the audience. And I was hoping that I even though I backed you into a corner on these questions, I know that reading part of your story and empowering women, this is important. And so that's why I want to talk about it as much as I want to make sure that we talk about your business. And trust me, we'll get the word out about Radical. But I think it's important that what this business means to you. I can tell is coming through this interview. And that's what I think is even more important, because that is really what people are attracted to, people who care about people. Right. And there's something that you keep saying that's a great saying that I'm going to steal from you at some point, but I forget what it is. But you'll say it again, I'm sure. And Rachel: Ranchero. Joe: I'll be like, OK, I got to remember that. So quickly, explain to me then the the science part of it, where if you end up working with the chemist, let's say someone out there has an idea and they want to do something. How painful and how long is that process of tweaking and creating the product? And then do products that you sell have to get FDA approval? Rachel: Ok, so no so in skin care, you have ones that are considered like over the counter, which would be an SPF. So those have to go through certain testing in the United States for skin care in the U.S.. It's actually it's pretty loose. It's actually not very rigorous at all. So we are global, so we're EU compliant. So we have a compliance person in the EU that goes through all of our formulations. I make sure they're checking it against the list of all the ingredients that are not allowed on the market or about to not be allowed on the market. It goes down to the like the raw materials, make sure they're paraben free, that they're not using any preservative systems that to be able to make certain claims. Like I can say, I'm paraben free in the U.S. It's not as rigorous. It has some things. And you can literally like look them up online, but they're not regulated. Like people are not regulating your formulas to say what's in it is OK. And think about how many you have a lot of people that make up their own skincare and will sell it even locally that don't have, you know, strong preservative systems in it where, you know, you don't know really how long they can last and that they're good for. But I always encourage that when you're doing development and you're talking to your chemists to make sure that you're being as clean as possible, there's a list on like even on our website that shows all the ingredients that we do not have in under our consciously clean tab. So, Joe: I saw that, which I Rachel: Yeah. Joe: Thought was brilliant, that there's Rachel: Yeah. Joe: No you're not hiding anything, it's all right. There it was. Rachel: Exactly. Joe: It Rachel: So Joe: Was Rachel: It's Joe: Very Rachel: Actually Joe: Impressive. Rachel: It's a resource for other people, honestly, Joe: Yep, Rachel: So, Joe: Yep. Rachel: Which is great. You know, just knowing what you don't want to have going into your product, and the chemist usually have a pretty good handle on that if you're working with a good, good manufacturer. What is regulated is the FTC regulates claims. So you can't make a product and go on Instagram and say, my product reduces fine lines and wrinkles, 400 percent and then show before and after. That's not necessarily the right one or whatever. Like that's where you get in trouble in the U.S. So they regulate that really, really closely. So you do have to be with your marketing. You have to be accurate in your claims and making sure that you're not misleading a customer. Joe: Ok, let's talk about. So now I understand that you still have the global retail business that's still happening in over 900 stores, and I had a note down here in 17 countries, probably Berklee. Now it's 20. So this is amazing. What is the team that you have? So you said you kept you keep the two businesses separate. So what is the team that's running Radical as opposed to the team that's running the ambassador brand program? Rachel: Right. OK, so we used to have a team in London, an office in London, office in Paris, one in Hong Kong, and Liz and I, we're looking at each other saying this does not make sense. And this was when we started Radical. We had definitely some big players involved, which were more on the state lotor level. And so us being entrepreneurial or we're not like corporate girls at all. So put us into a corporate environment or like what do we do here? We're like, we have to clock in and clock out. We're like Joe: Yeah. Rachel: We work. We work 24/7 anyway. Joe: Right. Right. Rachel: That's being an owner of your own company. They wanted to have this really broad footprint. And Liz and I, they were the experts and prestige and we really weren't. So we really follow their lead. And we noticed that like we we built it. We had all the locations. But you really have to have boots on the ground everywhere. So, listen, I ended up saying, you know what, we're going to buy our company back and we're going to do this in a smart way where we have distributors internationally. So like, for instance, in Australia, we work with Mekka, who's the largest skincare or any cosmetics retailer there. It's like the Safar of the U.S. and but they handle everything. I don't have to put freelancer's in the store. I don't have to do anything. They own it and they do an amazing job. And then in the U.K., I have a distributor there, and in Switzerland I have a distributor there. So my international business is very much distributor driven. So they manage their own markets, they invest in their own markets. They have certain things that they're supposed to do in order to maintain their exclusivity there. But that operates pretty much separately. The U.S. it's I have a core team that works just on the brand partners program. And it's a small team because like I said, we're doing this in a very organic way and obviously bringing people that have the experience and building a peer to peer business. So that's been super exciting. And that's that's what's worked by just having a core team that works for only on brand partner business. Joe: Ok, can you talk more about the the brand the ambassador program, just so that we can get an understanding if someone is listening to this and saying, I love this, I love the idea. They go to your website and they look at all of this. They get hit up all the time with all these other programs to sell cosmetics and skin care. It's sometimes it's a hard sell for them. They end up dropping off or they just they can't figure out how to get into something like this. And I'd like to know what your program is about so they know and then why it's different. And obviously that the ingredients that you use that's really coming to the forefront these days is that you're not putting ingredients in that can harm someone. So that's another really important thing. So can you talk a little bit about that program? Rachel: Yes, absolutely. So we kind of what I talked about earlier is that we just started to recognize that our brand is so much more than skin deep, and it always has been. It's just been listen, I speak from the place of possibility all the time. And we with all of our brand partners were like invested in their future. That's like we are invested in their future. That's why we call them brand partners, like you are our partner in this. And that's a big shift in how you are within a company, because we've created such a turnkey solution and support to help you get to wherever it is that you want to go. And we are building a very, very strong core community. We have a our comp plan is very, very simple. We noticed and the different types of ambassador brand partner type programs where there's this exclusion element, if you don't do certain things and you are not a part and our part is you are included. We're like, you can participate with us, however it works for you. So we have people that just are more like influencers are on there. You know, they're selling through their social channels and they're making great money. Then we have people that are like, oh, my gosh, I've got like I want to build a business. Like I want to invest Radical like my new baby. And you guys have handed over the keys with science, clinical backing, credibility. You've been in prestige. You have press for over the past ten years, you know, steeped in science about a movement that matters. And our company is always listen, I only see things like it has to be larger than us. Like everything we do has to be larger than us. Rachel: It's not money. It's not it's like it has to be bigger than us. And so like our vision is and goal will be we're going to be a billion dollar company. And that means that we are we are making millions of dreams come true. Millions. And that is our number one goal is to do that. So and within our community, we have like our deep dive, which we just did on Monday, where we open that up to customers or brand partners, where we do a chapter in our book and we like unpack it and we talk about it. And it's always amazing because it speaks to people wherever they are, whatever they're going through. We have the opportunity to interact and communicate and share ideas. It's great. And then we have a lot of other activities where, you know, we'll be traveling some to meet different people. And we have a shared pool for company sales where you can earn into the share pool. That's three percent of our company. So we're taking profit for all of our brand partners to be able to participate and based on whatever their performance is. So it's like they are profiting. And we have a founder's club, which is a group of individuals that are just working super hard and achieving different levels. So it's it's really a straightforward program. And we have one of the best ladies on our team that really focuses on helping individuals figure out how to incorporate that into their life, understanding comp plans. And she's like the best cheerleader in town, like you want her behind you. You know what I'm saying? She's like, come on, you got Joe: Right. Rachel: This. You know, I call her like Joe: That's awesome. Rachel: So. Yeah, Joe: Ok, cool. Rachel: And it's super easy. You can go on to our website and it says, just become a brand partner. You just click on it and has a lot of information there. Joe: Great. OK. I don't. We're getting close to the end, and I want to keep you longer than I promise. So talk to me about the book, "Get Radical: Secrets to Living a Life You Love." Rachel: Yeah, yes. So that was a labor of love. It was definitely time consuming for the both of us. Like what? What an experience writing a book. Never did we think I mean, my father is like such a. He's like published like 3000 peer review articles. Written books. I mean, it's like that's like no, no problem for him. And Liz and I like we really want to put this to paper, like we want to share through the mentors that we have met. And just the stories, because we really know that there is a technology to getting a life that you love, whether, you know, really getting those fundamentals of goal setting visualization and then what gets in your way. So the fear of failing, you know, people get stuck in making decisions like paralysis. So we talk about a lot of that throughout the story. And we bring in different mentors that share stories that are super relatable, that you can be like, oh, my gosh, that's happened to me. Oh, yeah, I've been through that. Oh, I love that. And at the end of every chapter is really a Radical recap where it gives you back the ideas of like, OK, these are the things that you may want to focus on, the questions you may want to ask yourself some you know, some guided ideas of how to get where you want to go to creating that passion, purpose, health and wealth, you know, whatever that is for you. Joe: Yep. OK. That's awesome. A question I wanted to ask earlier that I forgot, which I think is important in any partnership, because I grew up observing my father in a family business. And it's really tough when you have your own family in the business. It's tough when you are in a partner relationship because a lot of them don't work out as we know, as entrepreneurs. We've heard the horror stories. So with you and Liz, you talked about it earlier, how you both have your strengths and weaknesses. Right. And you use those to conduct this business. Do you recommend or do you have a line in the sand that says, OK, Liz, you are handling all of the financial part of this and anything that comes out of this financial related, that's your baby. I'm doing all the product stuff or whatever. So I'm not putting words in your mouth, Rachel: Right, Joe: But I'm just Rachel: Right, Joe: Trying Rachel: Right. Joe: To give you an example of can you explain how that division works? Rachel: Gosh, I wish it was that clear cut. Joe: Yes. Rachel: Like I'm like, here, take that hat. Oh, wait, wait, I'll Joe: Right. Rachel: Wear Joe: Right. Rachel: This one today. Joe: Exactly. Rachel: That's Joe: Well, Rachel: Kind of. Joe: I think the fear is, is that with businesses and partnerships, it's stuff sometimes somebody say, wait, I thought you were handling that. It's one of those things or you did it, but you didn't do it as well as I would have done. You know, so I'm trying to make sure we get this out to explain that you really have to be honest with yourself and say, I'm really not any good at marketing, so I'm not doing it. And if you don't want to do it as my partner, then we need to get somebody who does. Rachel: Exactly. Joe: So. Rachel: Well, first off, I would always say really, you know, know your family dynamics like how you operate with whether it's a brother or a sister or a family business. And we been fortunate because we we both see things. We both have the same goals, right, so I always say like, know that first, do you do you are you in alignment on what your goals are for your company and what purpose you both have in that? Like make sure you're on the same page? Because if one person sees the company for something else and you see it, then it's always going to be like this. Right? So you have to be on the same page, an alignment on your goals and your vision for what it is that you want. So that's like the biggest thing I can say. Everything else for us. We both have a lot of creative ideas. So I would say that we take our creative ideas and then I do more a lot more on that implement and manage. She does a lot more in the network. And, you know, big picture of whatever it is that we might be be doing. So it's very we complement one another. So I think you do. I think if you can make some more clear boundaries, I wouldn't say we were maybe the perfect example. We're kind of a weird group because we can just kind of work together. Well, I don't know. Maybe since we've been doing it since 1994, I think my sister and I have had maybe two arguments in business, and they went for a good quality like ten minutes and it was over. But yeah, I think having a making sure your visions are in alignment really takes away a lot of the issues. Joe: Ok, so the website is radicalskincare.com. Rachel: Yes. Joe: There is the whole retail side of the business that if any of those people are listening, they can contact you for distributorship wholesale or whatever that might be. And then there's the whole brand ambassador side, Rachel: Yes. Joe: Which is really to empower mostly I think it leans towards women, and I think that's great. But obviously, we talked about earlier that men can get involved because you said that the products are Rachel: Unisex, Joe: What was the word, unisex, Rachel: Unisex. Joe: Right. Is there anything else that I missed that you wanted to talk about before I let you go? Rachel: No, I mean, I guess back to I always just feel like you want to be part of a movement that matters, like really having a movement that matters. And Joe: That's it, I think that's the saying, Rachel: That was Joe: You Rachel: That. Joe: Keep saying, that's Rachel: See, Joe: It. Rachel: I told you it was going to happen. Joe: I love it. Rachel: I Joe: I'm Rachel: Was going Joe: Still Rachel: To get it in right at the end for you. Joe: I'm stealing it. I'm stealing. Rachel: Yeah. So that's like really what we we stand for and being a part of something that's bigger than yourself. And that's what really Radical is all about. It is we're in herself meets outer beauty. And, you know, your purpose is our promise. And that's that's what we want, you know, surrounding yourself in life around like minded people. That's just a beautiful thing. And I think that's what we we want to be able to help others with, to really get to, you know, living a life that they love and dream and going above and beyond. And so we really appreciate you having me on today. And Joe: Yeah, Rachel: I was Joe: Absolutely. Rachel: Really I was happy to be able to distinguish that I'm the younger sister, Joe: Well, Rachel: Older Joe: That's how she Rachel: Man. Joe: Gets that, too. That's what Liz gets. And you can tell her that even though we've never talked, I'm no longer talking to her. Rachel: Right. Yes, OK, we're on the same page. Joe: And I want the I want the audience, the listeners, and then eventually the viewers. But right now, the listeners that listen to the podcast, your message, what you are accomplishing with this is very sincere. And the integrity is there. I hear it in your voice. I see it in your face. So when the viewers go to watch this episode on YouTube, they, too, will understand that this means a lot to you. This is not about making money. This is about empowering people to live the life that they love and to just do great things and feel good about themselves. And it's both with having potentially a small business of their own or a large business through this. It's about making some extra money on the side. It's it's about feeling good, both financially, physically, inside and outside. And I think it's awesome what you're doing. And I just I could tell. Like, I interview a lot of people and the comment maybe it's an L.A. thing, but the calmness in you is not this sales motivated conversation that we're having. It's a conversation from the heart that you love what you do. This is something you wanted to do to help us. And it comes across. So I wanted you to know that that I was hoping so much that it would be this and not be this powerful woman who is just like sell, sell, sell, sell. And if you get this and you come into our program and you can drive a Mercedes in a year Rachel: No, Joe: And Rachel: No, no, Joe: All Rachel: No. Joe: Of that stuff. So this was wonderful. I loved Rachel: Yeah. Joe: It. Rachel: Yeah, well, we're not those girls, Joe: Yeah, Rachel: We're we're definitely heart centered, so. Joe: Perfect. I will put in the show notes all the ways to get in contact with you, the website and all of that, if there unless there's any special spot that you like to communicate. If there's I don't know if your Instagram fan and that's where you like to do it, or just like people to contact through the company email. But now's your chance to tell me Rachel: Yeah, Joe: Or the audience. Rachel: Either way and I was also Joe: Ok. Rachel: Going to do a code, so people Joe: Beautiful. Rachel: That are listening that Joe: Yeah, that'd Rachel: They Joe: Be great. Rachel: Can they can get a 10 percent discount on our products, but also we can send them an eBook. Joe: Beautiful. Rachel: So, yeah, we'd love Joe: Ok. Rachel: To do that so we can do Castelo 10. Joe: Beautiful, I'm going to write it down because I'm old and I'll forget Rachel: There's the old. Joe: It. All right, Castelo, 10 is the code to get 10 percent off. I love Rachel: That's Joe: It. Rachel: Right. Joe: Ok. Beautiful. Rachel, thank you so much. I appreciate your time. This was really cool. It was an honor to speak with you. I love what you're doing. And again, please tell Liz to that. I don't know. I don't ever want to talk to her. Rachel: Ok, Joe: No, it can't. Rachel: I'll call her right now. Joe: Yeah. They say you had one chance to come on Rachel: You Joe: Joe Rachel: Know, Joe: Show Rachel: You had Joe: And you Rachel: It, Joe: And you blew it. Rachel: She Joe: And Rachel: Missed Joe: We. Rachel: You missed the best podcast ever. Joe: Well, we had so much fun and Rachel: We did Joe: Ok, Rachel: The clip. Joe: Thank you so much, and I wish you all the best and I look forward to seeing your progress with everything. And it was really an honor to talk with you. Rachel: Thank you. Thank you so much.

Jordan Montgomery Interview

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 18, 2021 45:42

How To Find A Business Coach Or Mentor with Jordan Montgomery. My discussion with Jordan involved learning about the various types of performance coaches, the styles, how can someone benefit from a coach and why you would need/want one. I enjoyed this honest conversation with Jordan, his ideas and how well he spoke and conveyed his ideas and message. There's a good chance a performance coach could really improve so many things in your life, that it's worth looking into for sure. Thanks for listening! Joe #thejoecostelloshow #montgomerycompanies #performancecoach Jordan Montgomery Owner - Montgomery Companies Website: https://www.montgomerycompanies.com/ Instagram: @jordanmmontgomery Facebook: @montgomerycompanies LinkedIn: @jordanmmontgomery Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.libsyn.com Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to: https://joecostelloglobal.lybsyn.com Follow Joe: https://linktr.ee/joecostello Transcript Jordan: Hey, Joe, thanks for having me, man. I've been following your work, and I want to say congratulations on all that you've built and continue to build. And it's an honor to have this conversation with you. Thanks. Joe: Hey, Jordan, welcome to the podcast. Man, I'm glad you're here. I'm excited to talk with you. Jordan: Well, Joe: Thanks Jordan: I appreciate Joe: For coming. Jordan: That question and I'll try to be succinct with my answer, but I grew up in southeast Iowa and a little town called Colonia in Kelowna is the smallest Joe: Thank you, man, I appreciate Jordan: One of the smallest Joe: It. 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Jordan: So Joe: So Jordan: I live in Iowa Joe: The stage Jordan: City, Joe: Is Jordan: Iowa, Joe: Yours. Jordan: Actually just outside of Iowa City and a little small town called Tiffin with my wife Ashley and our three daughters. My wife today runs the business. I run my mouth. We have a full scale coaching and consulting firm, Montgomery Companies. We have several coaching partners, and today we serve several thousand coaching clients. Those clients range from professional athletes to entrepreneurs and salespeople. We do work with some executive leaders at some larger firms. And I just have a blast getting to do what I do. And I meet some really interesting people. We get to help people think more deeply about who they are and where they're headed. And ultimately you get to help people live into who they were created to be. And it's a tremendous blessing. So I had a career in the financial services business, allowed me to pivot into this world pretty open about my professional journey. But at the end of the day, I graduated college 2010 and University of Iowa spent the last 11 years really building a skill set that's allowed us to build a business around coaching, consulting and leading people. So that's kind of the short version of my story. Obviously, there's a lot of twists and turns and gods provide a lot of grace. Jordan: Certainly I've been thankful to be around a lot of the right people. But if you're asking me the short version on how I got to where I'm at today, that's the the short version on Jordan Montgomery. Yeah, I think my dad, at the end of the day, my dad was a family man with a business, not a business man with a family. And I wanted to model that. I wanted to be a family man with a business, not a business man with a family. And I think as a driven type, a young man living in America, I kind of fight that every day. I mean, at the other day, like my wife and my kids are my top priority. But if I say they're my top priority, then that needs to show up in my calendar and that needs to be reflected in how I spend my time. And I want to be respected the most by people who know me the best. And that means that I'm a father first. I'm a husband first. I'm leading my family well. And if I lead inside the walls of my home, then I think I can lead in other areas of my life Joe: Cool. Jordan: As well. But Joe: So Jordan: I just didn't want to be Joe: First Jordan: The guy Joe: Of Jordan: That Joe: All, I love the part Jordan: Built Joe: Where you Jordan: Something Joe: Said Jordan: Professionally Joe: That because your father Jordan: But Joe: Was Jordan: Then Joe: Able Jordan: Sacrificed Joe: To make it, Jordan: Or Joe: You Jordan: Compromised Joe: Gravitated Jordan: In really other Joe: Towards Jordan: Important Joe: That Jordan: Areas Joe: Feeling Jordan: Of life. 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Not a lot of people have said that in the past on the show when they when they said, oh, I became an entrepreneur because and it was all of these other reasons. But to actually associate it with your father sitting on the sidelines, watching you play sports and concert or whatever it might be, that was really cool. Jordan: Well, and I'll say this to Joe, because there are some entrepreneurs listening that maybe don't have that flexibility, like maybe you're truly in a situation where you've got a team or your businesses in an industry that requires you to work certain hours or whatever. So that's not a shame or guilt. Anyone who's working really hard to provide, because at the end of the day, entrepreneurs are called to work longer hours is just part of the deal. So if you're in that grind right now, here's what I'd encourage you with, is somebody that's going to change and the reason that you're doing what you're doing right now, the reason that you're working as hard as you're working right now is to have the flexibility and the autonomy. And, you know, I also wasn't there for my dad's early years. Like, I missed you know, I was born when my dad was eight to 10 years into being an entrepreneur. So he earned that flexibility. So let's just not forget that that flexibility is earned. And that looks different for every entrepreneur based on the industry Joe: Yeah, that Jordan: That Joe: Was Jordan: You're Joe: Really Jordan: In Joe: Cool, and I Jordan: And Joe: Came Jordan: This Joe: From Jordan: Stage Joe: An entrepreneurial Jordan: Of Joe: Family as well. Jordan: The business Joe: The Jordan: That Joe: Unfortunate Jordan: You're in. Joe: Thing for Jordan: So Joe: Me is that Jordan: I think Joe: My Jordan: That's Joe: Father Jordan: Important to Joe: Could Jordan: Underscore. Joe: Not attend most of my stuff. So when you said it, it kind of hit home and I hold nothing. He's passed on at this point. But I never held a grudge because he just he worked his butt off and and just to provide and create something great. So it never struck me the other way. It wasn't Jordan: Yeah. Joe: Like I was resentful over it. But I just love the way you framed that whole thing. That was really cool. Jordan: Well, yeah, you know, I just I fell in love with sports at a really early age. I just love competition. I loved competing. I love watching other people compete. I love the atmosphere. I love the energy that goes into a sports competition. I'm still the guy, Joe. Like, I will watch one shining moment at the end of the final four for those who are familiar with that show. I cry every year when I watch that one shining, but that little three minute clip. And I think part of the reason I get emotional about that as you watch young people get emotional over competition. And I just loved the rush of competition. I loved watching people give their all to a very specific activity, blood, sweat and tears. And Joe: Yeah, absolutely, Jordan: So Joe: I totally Jordan: I just fell Joe: Agree Jordan: In love with sports Joe: And Jordan: At a young Joe: I'm Jordan: Age. Joe: Still Jordan: I played Joe: Working Jordan: Sports Joe: Like Jordan: All the way Joe: Crazy, Jordan: Through high school. Joe: But Jordan: I did Joe: It's Jordan: Not compete Joe: Just Jordan: In college. Joe: Because Jordan: And Joe: I Jordan: It's something Joe: Don't Jordan: That's Joe: Say no Jordan: Kind Joe: And Jordan: Of Joe: I Jordan: Interesting Joe: Just keep Jordan: About Joe: Adding Jordan: My story Joe: More and more Jordan: And background. Joe: To my plate. Jordan: A lot of people Joe: So it's Jordan: Ask Joe: My Jordan: Me, well, Joe: Own fault. And Jordan: You must Joe: And, Jordan: Have played professional Joe: You Jordan: Sports Joe: Know, we're empty Jordan: Or at least Joe: Nesters. Jordan: Collegiate sports. Joe: I have no Jordan: You're going Joe: One Jordan: To Joe: To Jordan: Work Joe: Provide Jordan: With these professional Joe: For myself, but Jordan: Athletes Joe: I Jordan: And college Joe: Just can't Jordan: Athletes. Joe: Stop Jordan: And I'm just Joe: The Jordan: Very Joe: Train. Jordan: Open about that. Joe: So Jordan: A lot of what I learned Joe: It is what Jordan: As Joe: It is. Jordan: Applied Joe: So let's Jordan: And most Joe: Before Jordan: Of the athletes Joe: We get Jordan: We're working with, Joe: Into Jordan: We're working with in the areas Joe: All of what Jordan: Of Joe: You offer Jordan: Mindset and Joe: In Jordan: Leadership development. Joe: Montgomery Jordan: So Joe: Companies Jordan: I'm not teaching Joe: And Jordan: A basketball player how to shoot. Joe: Your team Jordan: You Joe: And Jordan: Know, Joe: The Jordan: I'm Joe: Different Jordan: Not helping Joe: Levels Jordan: The Joe: Of coaching Jordan: Football Joe: That you do, Jordan: Player with his footwork, Joe: Talk to me about Jordan: But Joe: You Jordan: We are helping Joe: And Jordan: Him with Joe: Sports. Jordan: Our mental game and Joe: Just Jordan: We're Joe: Because Jordan: Helping Joe: I Jordan: Them Joe: Want Jordan: With the Joe: To Jordan: Six Joe: Know, Jordan: Inches in between Joe: Was Jordan: Their ears Joe: There a correlation Jordan: And we're helping them with how Joe: Of Jordan: They see the world and their self Joe: You Jordan: Awareness Joe: Doing sports Jordan: And Joe: Young Jordan: Their externalisation Joe: Or sports in college Jordan: And optimization. Joe: Or to Jordan: You Joe: Me, Jordan: Know, Joe: You looked Jordan: At the Joe: Like Jordan: End of the Joe: You Jordan: Day, Joe: Were a football Jordan: I think Joe: Player. Jordan: It athletes Joe: I was like, maybe Jordan: In a really Joe: He played Jordan: Unique Joe: For Jordan: World Joe: The Hawkeyes. Jordan: Where they Joe: I Jordan: Give Joe: Don't Jordan: So Joe: Know. Jordan: Much of their time for such a really, really small window of competition. You know, you think a lot like the average NFL athlete will compete for less than two hours, whistle to whistle over the course of a season. But they can be literally all year round and they'll get paid, graded and evaluated for what they do inside of two hours. All year long, but it's kind of a metaphor for it for all of us, right, because the reality is each one of us is practicing for little moments, for small moments. Some of them we can predict, some of them we can't. But you get paid and your best to show you get paid really, really, really well to be prepared Joe: Hmm. Jordan: In small little windows of time. And so I developed the sort of fascination or obsession with helping athletes prepare and be at their best when that small window of opportunity presents itself and, you know, your clutch, your clutch when you can show up and do normal things. In an abnormal times, so like Derek Jeter, Kobe Bryant, you know, they're considered clutch because at the end of the day, they could show up normal. They could just be who they were because they had practiced so much in the most important windows of time. And it's a really interesting metaphor that we can apply to all of life. Yeah. Yeah, well, it's it's a pursuit of excellence, right, and you know, I'm reading a book right now by Tim Grover, The Unforgiving Race to Greatness, and it's called Winning. And, Joe: Yeah, it's Jordan: You know, there's Joe: And Jordan: So much of what Tim Joe: Again, Jordan: Grover preaches Joe: People Jordan: That I Joe: That Jordan: Really love. Joe: Maybe Jordan: I'm Joe: Just Jordan: Not Joe: Watch sports casually Jordan: Maybe not aligned Joe: Don't Jordan: With one Joe: Understand Jordan: Hundred percent of it, Joe: The Jordan: But Joe: Grueling Jordan: Winning has a price, Joe: Effort Jordan: You know, in Joe: In the lifelong Jordan: Pursuing your Joe: Commitment Jordan: Calling has a price Joe: To potentially Jordan: Regardless Joe: Never, Jordan: Of what you do, Joe: Ever Jordan: You know, sports or otherwise. Joe: Getting Jordan: If you're an Joe: That Jordan: Athlete, Joe: Chance Jordan: Great. But Joe: In Jordan: If Joe: The sports Jordan: You're an entrepreneur, Joe: World and Jordan: There's going to Joe: Used Jordan: Be a cost Joe: To have some really good friends Jordan: Associated Joe: On the Buffalo Jordan: With Joe: Bills Jordan: Your calling. Joe: Football team because Jordan: And Joe: I went to college Jordan: I Joe: Out Jordan: Think Joe: There Jordan: Sports is the epitome Joe: And Jordan: Of that. Joe: I was Jordan: But certainly Joe: A musician. Jordan: Entrepreneurship Joe: I was Jordan: Is Joe: In a band. Jordan: Is Joe: They Jordan: Right Joe: Loved Jordan: There Joe: Our band and they used Jordan: With being Joe: To come Jordan: With being Joe: And Jordan: An athlete Joe: Hang Jordan: In Joe: Out. Jordan: Terms Joe: We've got Jordan: Of Joe: The dinner with Jordan: Making Joe: Them and Jordan: Sacrifice. Joe: You would hear the stories. And it's just to live on the edge of not knowing if you're playing or you're sitting each day and who's who's looking for your spot and the work so hard and give up so much from a really young age all the way through. It's unbelievable. You know, and I watch certain friends here in Arizona, believe it or not, Arizona has got a very big hockey base. You know, like fans love hockey. And there's a lot of kids that come here, play hockey, play on the farm team of the coyotes or and we've had friends that had their kids just go through all in hockey. Moms and dads have the worst it's the worst schedule I've ever seen. And to go all the way to the very end and be on the farm team and never get called up. And I can't even imagine that it's just grueling. Jordan: Yeah, well, you know, there's there's a lot that goes into speaking, right, speaking as an art form, and in today's world, attention is currency. So something we think about a lot and the keynote speaking world is you've got Joe: Mm Jordan: To Joe: Hmm. Jordan: Keep people's attention. And if you can't, you're out, you're done. You'll never be the really high demand keynote speaker if you don't know how to keep somebody's attention. So there's multiple ways that we do that. One of the ways that we keep people's attention is through story. It's a story sell facts, tell. When you get really good Joe: Yeah, Jordan: At telling stories, Joe: Yeah, I Jordan: You keep Joe: Agree. Jordan: People's attention. Joe: Ok, Jordan: In Joe: So Jordan: Fact, Joe: Enough about sports. Jordan: If I Joe: I Jordan: Were to Joe: Watched Jordan: Tell you about Joe: The video Jordan: My business, Joe: Of Jordan: If Joe: You Jordan: I were Joe: Working Jordan: To say, well, Joe: With Jordan: You know, Joe, Joe: The Hawkeyes Jordan: These are the five Joe: And Jordan: Things that I do my Joe: I Jordan: Business, or Joe: Was watching as Jordan: If Joe: The Jordan: I said, hey, Joe: Camera Jordan: Joe, Joe: Went around the room, I Jordan: Let Joe: Was Jordan: Me tell Joe: Watching Jordan: You a story. Joe: To see how intently Jordan: The minute I said, I'll Joe: The Jordan: Tell Joe: Players Jordan: You a story, Joe: Were listening Jordan: I would actually Joe: To you. Jordan: Activate Joe: And Jordan: Your brain Joe: Like I was Jordan: At 12 Joe: Watching Jordan: Times Joe: Their eyes Jordan: The Joe: And Jordan: Capacity. Joe: Their expressions Jordan: So Joe: And they Jordan: There's Joe: Were Jordan: A Joe: All Jordan: Lot of neuroscience Joe: Incredibly Jordan: That supports Joe: Focused. Jordan: The fact that Joe: And Jordan: I've got Joe's Joe: I can Jordan: Attention Joe: Only imagine the coach going, hey, Jordan: At 12 Joe: Today we're Jordan: Times Joe: Having Jordan Jordan: The rate. Joe: Mcqueary come in today. He's Jordan: If Joe: Going Jordan: I Joe: To talk Jordan: Decide Joe: To Jordan: To Joe: Us Jordan: Allow Joe: About Jordan: My words Joe: The Jordan: To Joe: Six Jordan: Paint a picture, Joe: Inches Jordan: Draw Joe: Between Jordan: You Joe: Our Jordan: Into Joe: Ears. Jordan: A story Joe: I want you guys Jordan: That Joe: To pay Jordan: Actually Joe: Attention. Jordan: Activates Joe: I want you to Jordan: Your Joe: Be open to Jordan: Senses. Joe: What he says Jordan: So Joe: And whatever. Jordan: The first Joe: And Jordan: Thing is we try to Joe: It Jordan: Tell Joe: Feels Jordan: A lot Joe: Like when Jordan: Of stories Joe: Somebody Jordan: To drive Joe: Comes Jordan: A plan. Joe: Into the Jordan: We Joe: Classroom, Jordan: Don't use PowerPoint Joe: When you're in elementary Jordan: Slides Joe: School, Jordan: Or use Joe: You Jordan: Pictures Joe: Start Jordan: Or graphs. Joe: Throwing papers Jordan: I'm not Joe: At each other. And Jordan: I'm Joe: So Jordan: Not minimizing Joe: How do you deal with that Jordan: Anybody Joe: When you Jordan: Who does Joe: Speak? Jordan: Those Joe: Because Jordan: Things. Joe: You do all sorts Jordan: I just Joe: Of speaking Jordan: Think if you're going Joe: Engagements. Jordan: To be someone who keeps Joe: So Jordan: People's Joe: This was Jordan: Attention, Joe: Just one Jordan: You got Joe: Small Jordan: To be great Joe: Piece of it. Jordan: At Joe: But you Jordan: Stories. Joe: Do something to capture Jordan: I Joe: People. Jordan: Think eye Joe: When I Jordan: Contact Joe: Watched Jordan: And tonality Joe: Even Jordan: Is Joe: The speaking Jordan: Is another Joe: Engagements Jordan: Big one, right? There's Joe: At Jordan: A difference Joe: The corporations Jordan: Between communicating Joe: That you've Jordan: And Joe: Done, Jordan: Connecting. People Joe: You Jordan: Want to feel Joe: Have a really Jordan: Like you're Joe: Good flow. Jordan: Speaking to them Joe: You don't Jordan: Like, Joe: Use Jordan: Wow, Joe: All Jordan: This guy's Joe: Of the Jordan: Speaking directly Joe: Weird words Jordan: To me. Joe: That people use Jordan: And Joe: All the time. Jordan: It sounds Joe: Tell Jordan: So Joe: Me Jordan: Simple, Joe: How you do Jordan: But what's Joe: It. Jordan: Common sense is not always kind of practice. If you watch your average keynote speaker, their eyes will kind of drift all throughout the room to look down, look sideways. I think at the speaker, you want to keep constant eye contact. And then the other thing I think about is being really you centered in the message being you centered. So I'm going to use two people's names. I'm going to pick people out in the crowd. I'm going to touch people, maybe even on the shoulder or the arm as I'm speaking. And I'm going to move through the crowd. And so much of communication is nonverbal, right? 90 percent is nonverbal. It's not what you say, it's how you say it. And it's also not what you say. It's what people hear and it's what they remember. Maya Angelou famously said it's not what you say that people remember. It's how you make them feel. And so I try to stay really in tune with how I make people feel. A lot of that is my energy, my body language. It's you focus communication, it's telling stories, and it's the difference between connecting and communicating. So if you're listening and you're thinking about your communication style or maybe you want to develop your craft as a keynote speaker, those are a few things that you could consider. Jordan: And I'll say this to Joe. I'm a long way away from where I want to be. I got a long way to go. So those are things that I think about repetitiously. And I get obsessed with the practice of my craft. And I'm evaluating and observing high level keynote speakers. You know, how do they move? What do they say? What do they not say? You know, their pace, their tonality, the way that they tell stories, their presence. Yeah, those are all things that I'm paying attention to. So I appreciate your kind words. I think communication as an art form is no different than playing an instrument or doing a dance. And for anybody that's in sales, for any entrepreneur, if you're not taking that seriously as you develop and grow your business, that's something to really consider and think about. Because whether you're speaking to an audience of one hundred or a thousand or an audience of five or ten, you're in the human connection business before you're in the construction business or before you're in the marketing business or financial planning business or real estate business. We've got to remember that the human connection is at the center of everything that we do. Well, thank you. It's kind of you to say. I did and I went to school for interdepartmental studies, which is a fancy way to cover recreational management, so I literally wanted to go to school, have a great social experience, and then start a business and the fitness world. Jordan: That was kind of my dream. And so I took some entrepreneurial courses, got a degree in recreation management, fell into finance and in two things were true. I didn't want to have a boss, so I went to work for myself and I wanted to create my own schedule that that was it. I want to call my shots, create my own schedule. But I didn't have any money and I didn't have any experience. And so I fell into financial services because it allowed me to be in business for myself, but not by myself. So I had a great support system. It was kind of like a franchise model, had a lot of success in that world at an early stage, had a big event in my life in twenty fifteen that really have me thinking about my future in a deeper way. And then I decided to pivot into sort of the consulting and coaching world making financial planning, kind of our kind of our core client. And so in a very early stage in a coaching business, financial advisers were some of our first clients by way of my background in the financial planning world. Joe: Yeah, and you do it incredibly well, my friend. So thank you. So let's just backtrack really quickly so that I can get the progression from college into starting this company. So did you go to school for finance? Jordan: I think it's so true Joe: Ok. Jordan: In life and in business, definitely in entrepreneurship, where we're leading people, that more is caught than taught. Joe: Ok. Jordan: And so nobody really taught me how to coach. But I watched other people coach and I watched other people in my industry that do what I'm doing now, do it at a really high level. And again, I paid attention to quality of life. I paid attention to the relationships. I paid attention to the way that they manage their decisions and manage their time. And I thought, you know, I want to do that. I think I can do that. And I actually did it in tandem with my own financial planning. And so I started sort of coaching on the side and I had really been coaching all the while I was in financial planning and some aspect working with clients. But I also started getting asked to speak and do workshops. And so I sort of fell in love with that work, Joe. But the reality is I had a couple of mentors. I had some key people in my life that had done that work in a really high level. One of those people is a guy by the name of Ben Newman. Another guy is John Wright Senior. And they both had Joe: How did Jordan: Big Joe: Coaching Jordan: Coaching Joe: Catch your Jordan: Practices Joe: Eye, or Jordan: Working with Joe: Was it because Jordan: Professional Joe: You were Jordan: Athletes Joe: Just taking Jordan: And Fortune Joe: From Jordan: 500 Joe: Your Jordan: Executive Joe: Love of Jordan: Leaders. Joe: Sports Jordan: And Joe: Being a coach? Right. Jordan: I just Joe: I Jordan: Admired Joe: Mean, just Jordan: The work. Joe: Taking Jordan: I thought, Joe: That, Jordan: You know, Joe: But Jordan: I think Joe: Now Jordan: I Joe: Saying, Jordan: Can Joe: Ok, Jordan: Do that. Joe: Wait, Jordan: I got a lot to learn, Joe: I want Jordan: But Joe: To do a little Jordan: I'll Joe: Bit Jordan: Learn Joe: Of that Jordan: As I Joe: With Jordan: Go. Joe: Sports Jordan: And Joe: People. I want to do that with Jordan: Just Joe: Entrepreneurs. Jordan: Like you or any Joe: I want Jordan: Other Joe: To do Jordan: Entrepreneur, Joe: It with Jordan: You Joe: With Jordan: Kind Joe: Business Jordan: Of dive headfirst Joe: People. Jordan: And just Joe: I mean, Jordan: Hope Joe: What Jordan: It works Joe: Made Jordan: Out. Joe: You Jordan: So Joe: Wake up one day and Jordan: Our Joe: Say, Jordan: Business Joe: Yeah, Jordan: Grew Joe: I Jordan: Rapidly, Joe: Want to do coaching and Jordan: By Joe: I Jordan: God's Joe: Want to Jordan: Grace, Joe: Do it Jordan: Into Joe: In Jordan: The help Joe: This Jordan: Of a lot Joe: Form? Jordan: Of good people. And I woke up one day and I thought, you know what? I could leave my financial planning business based on what we built in the coaching business. And then we started to add more partners and multiply our efforts through other people. And that's when it really starts to get financed, when you can impact the world or you can impact the world around you through the people that work with you. So virtually everybody on our team right now, with the exception of maybe two to three people there in the coaching business, so their coaching partners, so they're leading, they're doing coaching and consulting work, either individual coaching group, coaching, keynote speaking, they're all contracted out. So some of them have five clients, some of them have 30 clients. We have a couple that have just a couple of clients and they're all sort of specialized. So we have some former professional athletes. We have some people that came from the ministry world. So they're actually pastors or they have been pastors. And then we have some people in the world of sales. We have some real estate agents and financial advisers. Some of them are very technical. Somebody might say a more motivational, but all of them are for hire as coaching partners. It's my job to lead them and make sure that they're getting what they need from a content standpoint and also just keeping them connected to to a vision and and keeping them connected to our company. But we're having a ton of fun. I mean, it's it's awesome to be on a team. It's fun to be a part of something that's bigger than just me. And, you know, each one of them is unique in terms of what they bring to the table. Joe: So that's a great segue because you do have a fairly Jordan: You Joe: Sizable Jordan: Know, what's Joe: Team. Jordan: Most important Joe: So Jordan: To us, Joe, Joe: What Jordan: Is that Joe: Do those Jordan: We all Joe: Team Jordan: Have Joe: Members Jordan: Similar Joe: Do Jordan: Values, Joe: For you? Jordan: So I want to give people the freedom and flexibility to be autonomous and how they work with clients. And so I've never told somebody, hey, here's the five step plan. Here's exactly what you have to do. Now, I'll make some general suggestions about the way that we lead people and care for people. But at the end of the day, most of the people that are on our coaching platform have been wildly successful in other arenas. And so they've been leading. They've been coaching. They've been training and developing people. So I think we're aligned in terms of our values. But beyond that, I want them to really operate in their true giftedness. And for some of them, that giftedness is in listening. You know, for some of them, it's in the world of neuroscience. You know, they just really understand how the brain works for others. They're just big on accountability, the kind like the bulldog that's in your face. It's really intense and motivational. So we want people to be who they are. We want them to have strong values, which for us means their faith filled and family oriented. And if they're faith filled, family oriented, others focus. They're usually a good fit for our coaching Joe: Did Jordan: Practice. Joe: They follow Jordan: And then, of course, Joe: A Jordan: There Joe: Certain Jordan: Are some other criteria Joe: Structure Jordan: That we want to Joe: That Jordan: Vet Joe: You Jordan: Out. Joe: Have Jordan: But Joe: Set up Jordan: That's Joe: So Jordan: A that's Joe: That Jordan: A good question. Joe: When someone hires one of those people, they know that if they're getting the quality of the Montgomery companies coach and there's a certain structure formula, something like that? The. Jordan: Yeah. Yeah, I would say that's that's very true of of our team, I think we're well positioned to help just about anybody in any industry with any problem. You know, there's a few that we would say, hey, we're not not licensed to do that. We're not going to dive into that space. But for the most part, if it is in the world of performance sales and driving results, there's somebody on our team that can handle the issue of the opportunity. Yes, so there's really two components to coaching for us and our business model, one is group coaching and one individual coaching, and those are obviously very separate. If I'm working with an individual client and we're talking about the phases of coaching or how I work with a client, first is discovery. So the answers you get are only as good as the questions that you ask. And people don't care how Joe: Cool. Jordan: Much you know Joe: Well, Jordan: Until Joe: I Jordan: They Joe: Just Jordan: Know that you care. Joe: It's important Jordan: And Joe: Because Jordan: To Joe: I Jordan: Us, Joe: When Jordan: It's Joe: I Jordan: A Joe: Went Jordan: Relationship. Joe: And looked at the website, I was like, Jordan: And Joe: This Jordan: So Joe: Is this Jordan: I Joe: Is Jordan: Always Joe: Cool. Jordan: Tell Joe: You Jordan: People, Joe: Have a Jordan: Hey, Joe: Really Jordan: I'm Joe: Cool team Jordan: A coach, Joe: Around Jordan: Which means Joe: You. And Jordan: I'm Joe: I Jordan: Going Joe: Wanted Jordan: To hold Joe: To Jordan: You Joe: Find Jordan: Accountable. Joe: Out if there Jordan: I'm Joe: Was Jordan: Going Joe: A variety Jordan: To share ideas Joe: In Jordan: Where to talk about Joe: What Jordan: Concepts Joe: They Jordan: And strategy, Joe: Coach on Jordan: Just Joe: Which Jordan: Like Joe: You Jordan: Any Joe: Answered Jordan: Coach Joe: That question. They Jordan: Would. Joe: Do. You have people that Jordan: The Joe: Specialize Jordan: Difference Joe: In Jordan: In Joe: All Jordan: Our Joe: Sorts Jordan: Approach, Joe: Of things. Jordan: I Joe: So Jordan: Think, is Joe: It's Jordan: That Joe: Great Jordan: I'm also Joe: That Jordan: A Joe: If Jordan: Strategic Joe: Someone Jordan: Partner. Joe: Loves working with you for all Jordan: And so Joe: The reasons Jordan: If I sign Joe: That Jordan: Up Joe: They Jordan: To work Joe: Love Jordan: With a client, Joe: To work with you, they Jordan: What Joe: Can Jordan: That means Joe: Get Jordan: Is Joe: Basically whatever Jordan: I'm going Joe: They Jordan: To advocate, Joe: Need under one roof, Jordan: I'm going Joe: Which Jordan: To support, Joe: Is cool. It's Jordan: I'm Joe: Not Jordan: Going Joe: Like Jordan: To connect Joe: You do. It's not one Jordan: And Joe: Dimensional Jordan: I'm going to highlight Joe: In any Jordan: And spotlight Joe: Any way, Jordan: Who Joe: Shape Jordan: You Joe: Or form. Jordan: Are and what you do. That means that my network is your network. It means if you want to speak engaged, we're going to help you with that. If you need marketing help or we're going to help you with that. If I need to get you connected to another leader, I'm going to help you with that. If we need help, you track down a client or prospect, I'm going to help you with that. So it's our approach is a little bit different that way. It's it's heavily based around relationship. The relationship has to start with Joe: All right, Jordan: Discovery. Joe: Cool. So let's talk about Jordan: One of my Joe: The Jordan: Other Joe: Coaching Jordan: Beliefs, Joe, is Joe: Part Jordan: That if Joe: Of it, Jordan: I'm working Joe: And Jordan: With a client, Joe: If Jordan: It's always Joe: You can go through Jordan: 100 percent Joe: And tell Jordan: Of the time, Joe: Me the Jordan: Their time, not Joe: Different Jordan: Mine. Joe: Types Jordan: Which Joe: Of Jordan: Means Joe: Services Jordan: I've got to Joe: That Jordan: Deal Joe: You Jordan: With Joe: Have Jordan: The issues, Joe: For the coaching Jordan: The Joe: Piece Jordan: Opportunities Joe: Of. Jordan: And the challenges that are most present for them right away before I try to drive my agenda. So if I show up to the call and I say, hey, Joe, here's three things I want to talk about today. Here's the here's the new approach to closing a sale or here's the new approach to the discovery process or whatever. And I find out that your dog just died or that you just lost the key employee or that your house just burned down. But I'm using really dramatic examples. But anyway, the point, is there something else on your mind? I'm missing it. I'm not know I've failed to connect with you, and candidly, I failed to lead you. So the first question I asked to all of our coaching clients and a coaching meeting, and they would tell you, this is not to say, hey, Joe, how do we create space to discuss and talk about the things that are most pressing, interesting and relevant for you today? I want to start there and then we'll recap and we'll talk about some of the stuff that we've talked about the past. I'm always, you know, forcing accountability. So we're we're bringing things to the forefront. Did you do X, Y and Z to do that or Yapp with that? But we addressed the issues that are most present. And then I'm always trying to share ideas and concepts that I feel like are relevant to them based on the seasonal life there in industry they're in or what they've said that they needed help with. Conversations tend to be fairly organic because, again, it's it's a relationship. And, you know, people open up to us about all kinds of stuff, their marriage, their finances, their friendships, their their problems that go way beyond their professional life. Jordan: So I appreciate the question. I don't know if I if I answered it exactly. But to give you a window into our world and how we work with people, that that's sort of our our process and style. You know, right now we work with such a wide range of people, Joe, so I'm not as concerned about like industry or niche. Here's what I what I'm really concerned with this character traits. So they've got to be values oriented, right? They got to care. They're going to be a decent person. In other words, if they just want to go make all the money in the world, they don't want to leave their family. I'm probably not a good fit. I'm going to challenge them on their values and lead in their family and growing in their faith. And that's part of who I am. But that's not for everybody. But so we're probably not a good fit if that's not part of who they are. And then the second thing that I would tell you is they got to be open minded. They have to be willing to learn. They have to be somebody that enjoys new information and new ways of thinking. A new perspective, fresh perspective. Right. Doesn't mean that I'm always right or my perspective is the right perspective. It just means that they're willing to listen right there. They're willing to hear and then they're willing to be challenged. So they want somebody to ask them the tough questions and share the truth and mix even said it best. You said average players want to be left alone. Good players want to be coached, great players want the truth. I want people that want the truth. I want people that really want to be challenged. Joe: Great. Jordan: They've Joe: So Jordan: Got Joe: Before Jordan: An open Joe: We Jordan: Mind Joe: Move to Jordan: And they have strong Joe: A Jordan: Values. Joe: Group coaching piece Jordan: And Joe: Of it, Jordan: If they've Joe: Because Jordan: Got those Joe: We just Jordan: Three Joe: Talked Jordan: Things, Joe: About the one on Jordan: They're Joe: One. Jordan: Usually a good fit for Joe: What's Jordan: Our coaching Joe: Your sweet Jordan: Practice. Joe: Spot? Who who are the people that you feel you work best with or can can help the best. Jordan: So the group coaches typically kind of a one hour session, we try to kind of meet people where they're at. So I work with organizations, as do our partners, to figure out, hey, what really do you need? What's the right time frame? What's the right size? I'd love to tell you that we've got, like, this specific program. It's cookie cutter. It's not. But that's by design. We really want to be a partner and meet people where they're at. So sometimes it's a small as is five people. I've got one group right now, 60, which I think is a little too big. What's important to us is that that's it's intimate or as intimate as it can be where people really feel like, you know, them. And and so we call on people. I try to get to know everybody by name and remember little facts about who they are and what's important to them. It's highly interactive. So I'm calling on people throughout the session. Usually I'm delivering 30 minutes of content or 30 minutes of discussion. We challenge challenge on the spot. I have other people challenge each other. I always say this in our group coaching program that where you sit determines what you see and you see something different than everybody else's and different is valuable. And so what that means is your voice matters because whether you're the most experienced person on the call are the least experienced person on the call, you see something that nobody else in the organization sees. And so we need your voice. We need your perspective, because you've got a different perspective than everybody else. So, Johnny, that sits at the front desk, that's the director of First Impressions, has some really valuable Joe: Awesome, Jordan: Perspective Joe: I Jordan: Because Joe: Love Jordan: Johnny Joe: That. OK, cool. Jordan: Sees Joe: So Jordan: Something Joe: The group Jordan: That Sarah, Joe: Coaching, Jordan: The CEO, Joe: What does that entail? Jordan: Doesn't see. And so we really just try to foster conversation, encourage people and empower people to share and speak up and then deliver content that's inclusive and relevant to the group. Yes, so much of our business is virtual, it just kind of always has been and most a lot of our clients aren't local. So they're you know, they're kind of spread out. We have people all over the US. I'm pretty used to Zoom calls and phone calls, and I speak a lot. Right. So keynote speaking is live often, but we still do virtual keynotes as well. So it's a good mixture, I would say, in so many ways covid changed our business. I was always willing to do things virtually, but I think a lot of companies weren't until they realized like, hey, we can do it this way. And so for me, as a person with a young family, it allowed me to stay at home and I didn't have to. I wasn't on a plane twice a week sleeping in a hotel. So so covid in some ways I'd be careful how I say this, because it was a really difficult time for a lot of people for our business. It actually affected my day to day rhythm or quality of life and I think a positive way and allowed me to be more present with my family. So it's a good mix of both. But I would say the pandemic certainly forced it to be more virtual. Joe: The coaching business, covid or not covid, were you doing live coaching up until that point and now a lot of Jordan: Yeah, Joe: It has shifted Jordan: I would say Joe: Onto Jordan: A good Joe: Like Zoom Jordan: Portion Joe: Calls and things Jordan: Of Joe: Like Jordan: Our Joe: That, Jordan: Clients Joe: Or Jordan: Are either Joe: How your Jordan: In Joe: Business Jordan: Sales or entrepreneurs, Joe: Today and what's Jordan: You know, Joe: The Jordan: So Joe: Mixture Jordan: There Joe: Of live Jordan: In fact, Joe: Versus Jordan: I would say it's Joe: Online? Jordan: Probably 80 percent of our business, either business owners or they're in sales and then there's maybe 20 percent that are in the world of executive leadership or sports. So that's kind of a mix of our business. When I say executive leadership, they're a leader in some sort of a corporate setting, but it's starting to change more every day. Like we work. I work right now with a group of physicians. We've got a gal that owns a very successful cosmetology clinic. So her whole thing is cosmetology Joe: Yep. Jordan: And she's been wildly successful and real estate agents and financial advisors and and college athletes and pro athletes. And so it's a it's a it's a wide range of people. Joe: Perfect out of the clients that you have, what is the percentage of general corporations, then entrepreneurs and then sports related? OK. Awesome. OK, we're closing in on the amount of time that I have you for, which is unfortunate because I love talking with you and I love your approach. 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First of all, have 20 years of experience, a team of 20 people there doing tens of millions of dollars revenue, that they're very successful. And so they hire us. They hire me to come in and do coaching work with them. And every one of them has sort of a different set of needs. But one of the things that we always talk about, at least on some level, is our communication style. Right, because they're in sales and they're communicating all day, every day for a living. So I challenge this financial advisor. Usually within the first few meetings, I'll say, hey, I want you to send me your approach language, which is really their what they say to engage a client and conversation. So it's a first time meeting and this is the first five minutes of sort of the introductory meeting. And I can I can feel their energy when I when I challenge them and I say, I want you to send me that communication. Their energy is like at a negative to. Right, they're thinking you're going to bill me X for coaching, I've been doing this for 20 years, like what I don't need is help on the basics of what I say. And, you know, I can just feel that just not really excited about that. Jordan: But I challenge him. I say I think this is a really important part of our work together. It helps me understand who you are and how you're showing up for people. So send that over when you get some time. So they send it over and it's not going to have all the answers. But I'm willing to listen to it repeatedly. Our team listens to it repeatedly. And then we give them an analysis. We give them feedback. The energy level, when we give them feedback, goes from a negative two to a 10. Every single time. Because they do not know what they do not know. And I just had a guy the other day, I said, OK, so when the first two minutes of your communication, you said the word thirty seven times. Did you know that? You know, hey, the way that you show up, did you know that you use me focused conversation? Over and over, you are literally saying I my, me repeatedly. And you were doing it for 20 years and nobody has ever told you that you're doing it, and that's a shame because you would connect with people and a deeper and more meaningful way because you would be able to drive better results. You would have more purposeful conversation if you could just make that one small tweak. Jordan: You know, we could end the conversation at the cozy relationship right there, and the time that we had spent together would have been massively impactful. Again, not because I have all the answers, but because I'm willing to listen, give real feedback and press in on blind spots that we all have. And the last thing I'll say is people need to be encouraged. You know, people will go farther than they think they can when someone else thinks they can, period. And I don't care for the most successful person, the least successful person, the most experienced, the least experienced. I'm working with a guy the other day, Fortune 500, executive leader, big time leader of people. They had a record breaking year at the firm. Unbelievable year. This guy is in charge of literally hundreds of direct reports. And I asked him in a conversation, I just said, hey, how many people told you over this past fiscal year? So you just wrapped up the year. How many people told you? Good job. And he says, well, like, what do you mean? I said, you know what I mean? Like e-mails, texts, phone calls. Like how many people reached out to you said, hey, good job, great you. And he said, Zira. Zero people had picked up the phone and sent a text instead of an email, so the point is this job that I've worked with, this guy named John. Jordan: So the point is this, John, that you need to be encouraged. You need somebody to point out what you're doing. Well. You need somebody to touch your heart and remind you of who God made you to be and all of the natural God given giftedness that's inside of you. And I just want to share with you it's an honor to be able to do that for you and with you. But let me let me help you see what I see. Let's look back at the last 12 months. Here's what you've achieved. In that moment, I think I think when you step into somebody's life in that way, you're a lid lifter and you do it authentically and you help them see more and you help them see before. Man, I think you're in a position of strength relationally. And I think that person at that moment realizes that that relationship means more than they ever realized. So there's a lot that we can say about coaching. But I think, Joe, when you touch somebody's heart, when you appreciate people for who they are, when you point out their God given gift A. and when you deliver the truth and love and you point out the blindspots, you can be a world class coach and it has nothing to do with what you know, it's all about. Jordan: You show up and serve people. Well, that's just my answer. I don't know if it's the right answer by anybody else's standard, but in my world, it's the way that I try to live each and every day with the people that we serve. I love it. Yeah, so here's what I'd say, we do a lot of work through social media, so Instagram is probably where I'm most active. I'm Jordan and Montgomery on Instagram, so I would love it. If you want to get in touch to send a direct message, I'll communicate back with you. I would love to connect Montgomery Companies dot com is on our website. I'm also active on Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter, and if anybody reaches out, I will gladly respond. If you got a question, if you're wrestling with an issue, an opportunity I'd love to talk to it with and be of service to anybody listening. And Joe, I want to say thank you for having me on your show. It's an honor. It's always an honor to share your great with the questions that, yes, it's very clear that you showed up prepared and you also had great energy. And so I just want to say thank you for your time and attention. Thanks for who you are and for what you're putting out into the world. It's making a difference. I. Right back at you, brother.

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Results Coaching Model with Brian Lovegrove

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 12, 2021 75:03

Results Coaching Model with Brian Lovegrove Brian Lovegrove has been on his journey of personal growth and professional development since the age of 17. Inspired by Tony Robbins, he has created not only a catalyst but a unique approach and process to helping others, like you, achieve their goals. He believes in providing & building upon the knowledge most coaches provide by practicing these lessons and building a HABIT! Using his "5 Keys of Success" in his coaching, he is a firm believer that if these keys are used, failure is all but eliminated. In this episode, we learn about all the tactics Brian uses and has honed over the years of being a coach and we did into a few of these methods during our conversation. As always, thanks so much for listening! Joe Brian Lovegrove Leadership Developer and Results Coach Website: https://brianlovegrovecoaching.com Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/brianslovegrove LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brianlovegrove/ Live Masterclass: https://www.becomeunstoppable.info 5 Keys to Success Podcast: https://5-keys-of-success.simplecast.com/ Unleash Your Fear eBook: https://www.unleashyourfear.com/freebook Email: lovegrove@lovegroveltd.com Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.libsyn.com Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to: https://joecostelloglobal.lybsyn.com Follow Joe: https://linktr.ee/joecostello Transcript Joe: Hi Brian, welcome to the podcast. I'm looking forward to having you on so many things I have to ask you, because you hit a core thing here with training, personal development courses, all of these things that I read about. And it's going to be interesting to find out your answers to these burning questions I asked. Brian: All right, Joe, I'm looking forward to it. Let's get rocking and rolling here. Joe: Awesome. OK, so you have to bear with me, because I literally do this with every single person on my podcast, is that I think it's important for my audience, who I believe is mostly entrepreneurs, whether they're currently doing their thing or they want to do their thing or they're struggling, doing their thing or whatever it might be. I think it's important for them to know the back story of the person that is on, because it's important to understand the development of where you came from and how you got to where you are today. And I think a lot of those things that you talk about actually people listening, going, oh, yeah, I've been there. I did that. I remember that. So I always leave this open to saying you can go back as far as you want, because if something in elementary school created who you are today, I want the audience to know about it so you can start wherever you want. Brian: Well, people ask me how I got introduced to personal development in the first place, and I actually go back to junior high. My dad was a commercial real estate broker and I grew up in Montana. And any time we would leave town, we would go on a long trip. And so he would pull out these tapes from work. And this was, of course, back before the iPods. The noise canceling headphones in that great, wonderful device that many of us grew up with, the Sony Walkman, Joe: Near Brian: Whatever Joe: And dear to my Brian: He Joe: Heart. Brian: Put into that. Yes. Yes. And so I got stuck listening to whatever was in the tape deck. And so I got introduced to guys like Earl Nightingale, Jim Roan and my favorite Zig Ziglar. And listening to those guys, Dennis Wailea, on and on and on and on, they taught me what it was to be an entrepreneur. And I remember Ziggs saying, treat every job as if you were the owner of the business and those HAQQ series that I listened to through junior high and high school shaped me in my choices in college. I actually got a degree in professional sales because of a I was originally going for a management degree my first year. My sister was two years ahead of me and she told me after my freshman year and says, you know what, Brian, you might want to consider changing majors because the people that I know that are graduating with management degrees are struggling to find jobs. And I went back and that that prompted me to ask a really good deep question at all. I don't know, 18. I asked myself, what career, what major, what level of information do I need to get while you're at college that would regardless of what happens to the industry, because I knew, you know, it's going to be out here in the marketplace for over 50 years. What degree do I need to go get that will? Regardless of what's going to happen, the ups and downs of the industry, whether we end up in another recession, we end up in another depression, that I would always have an opportunity to have a job if I wanted one. Brian: And that always brought me back to the sales aspect that Zig always mentioned, because, again, he did a lot of his sales around the Depression area and that that aspect of life where it's like how do you survive? How do you keep going in those areas? And it's really the salespeople that make the world go round. And so that's what led me to a sales degree. The other decision that I made when I was 17 was I got introduced to a guy named Tony Robbins and I bought his first tape series. Imagine a freshman in college spending probably a month of his earnings on a tape series. And I bought Tony's unlimited power. I still have the tapes are used today, actually gone and bought a second set because I wore out one of those tapes so that because I listened to it so much and I followed Tony ever since, I actually helped promote and put on his seminars for one of his franchises. And along the way, I've always been doing personal development, personal growth, and, you know, a lot I loved it. I just ate it up. But one of the big challenges that I ran into, I turned 40. Brian: It was like, why am I not far enough along? I've been doing this for 20 years. Why am I just here? Because at the time I was struggling to pay the bills. I was struggling to get by. My wife was working. We had two small kids. And I thought by the time I turned 40, I would have been much farther along by now. And so in this process, I realized it wasn't until much later that learning is not enough to make lasting change. I was actively learning. I was seeking the puzzle pieces, the pieces of information that was missing in my life. And I figured once I learned that then life would be easy and I'd be making all this money. But that never happened because I never did. The one thing that I learned all the way back in the beginning from XG is you have to do it until you get good enough at it, till it becomes your new normal. And only then, once you've applied and implement those strategies in your life, will they actually work for you. And you've got to do it long enough to get good enough at it and then continue to stick with it to where you can actually allow the compounding effect to, you know, you slowly creep and then you kind of turn that corner and it goes straight up. And it took me 50 years to hit that. Joe: So I'm going to go back real quick because I want to know what triggered you to buy that Tony Robbins course. You know, I know you were listening to this stuff in the car with your father on the Walkman or whatever else you were doing it. I mean, a kid at 17 doesn't do that. So what triggered it? Brian: Well, I had read the book, his book had come out and I had read the book and I really loved he had such a different style and he was talking about different things and he was talking about the things in the mind and he was talking about he and the different aspects there. And a lot of that was like, oh, my gosh, this stuff makes so much sense. And I was applying some of those strategies and I was seeing specific results. And I was like, and that's really what made me buy in. In fact, that's probably one of the few programs that I really started implementing strategy on. One of the big strategies you talked about was marketing Meeri, and it was one that I specifically used as I got into my initial first jobs and sales career. But I used on a consistent basis to help me actually get as far as long as I did. Joe: Ok, I'm still going to ask the question, because I'm not sure if you answered it yet. Why would a 17 year old buy the book like 17 year olds don't don't get into this stuff. So and I think it's important to figure out what triggered it for you. Brian: Well, again, I think it has to do with that was the next step, I the company that was putting those out was Nightingale Conant Joe: Yeah. Brian: And my dad would get those and I probably was home. I don't remember where I was when I got it. I might have gone home for Thanksgiving or Christmas. And I grabbed the magazine I love looking at because again, I've been doing this for a number of years now. And I was like, what? What's the new stuff they got? You know, Wayne Dyer was there and you know, you know who who are who's the new people? And there was this new one from this guy named Tony Robbins. And I don't know, I guess it just resonated with me. And I think it was seventy five bucks. And it was like and to be honest with you, I really can't say what prompted me to go. I want that. Joe: Mm hmm. Brian: But I think it was more of the sales pitch in the description of what it promised me. Joe: Got it. Brian: More than anything, that's what I would say it was based upon the results that were promised, based upon the description of the tape series. Joe: Ok, so you've been around that sort of thing for a long time, right? And if correct me if I'm wrong at any point, because I want to make sure this is super clear to the listeners, is that from what I get of what we're going to go still back, I still have other stuff to do, but I want to kind of set the stage of your expertise or what you believe is, is how you can help people. As you said, you can buy all the courses and attend all the conferences and do all of this stuff. You've said it here. You set it on your website. The enthusiasm kind of goes away when life gets in the way. Right. It's basically that simple. You come back from the high of of being at a conference or are listening to something and then life literally just gets in the way and you don't get the things done that you promised yourself that you would. So my understanding is that you are basically this coach that is going to keep you on track. Whether life gets in the way or not, you're basically going to be this person that is going to bring people along through all of this and keep them accountable to what they promise themselves that they would do and make sure that they do all of the things that are needed without shelving anything because life got in the way. Is that fair? Brian: Right, it is because, again, you know, Tony is great if you've ever been to one of his big events, you P.W. he he can talk nine thousand people into walking across twelve hundred degree recalls in a day. Joe: Yeah. Brian: By the end of day one, he's got you walking across Coles. But again, how do you can't maintain that energy and that excitement and the momentum of that event for weeks, months, years to get to where you want to go? And Tony has admitted that this is an area that he struggles with, is how do I get people to keep going? Joe: Mm hmm. Brian: Which is one of the reasons why he has his coaching program that you can go and pay tens of thousands of dollars to get a coach for a year, and it's one of the reasons why he actually created the pyramids, Madonna's training group, to train people like me to be coaches that help people implement his strategies. And that's really what it comes down to, is how do you take the strategies that, you know, you need to be doing and implement them? One of the biggest challenges in society today is we don't teach people discipline for the most part. There's a few places that that happens. But outside of that, it's not encouraged. In fact, it's almost especially in today's society, you're not responsible, you know, being responsible for yourself, being accountable. That goes out the window. And yet that's how you are going to be successful. That's how you're going to get to where you want to go. Unfortunately, society is teaching people to be cheap and to live in mediocrity. That is not how you're going to get to where you want to go, because I'm assuming that most people here are entrepreneurs. Joe: Mm Brian: They're Joe: Hmm. Brian: Entrepreneurs for a reason because they are sick and tired of working for somebody else's dreams. And so they want to pursue their own dreams or they think they can do it better. And so they're out there trying to do it on their own. But there's a myth that goes with that is the fact that they have to do it on their own, they have to try to figure it out all by themselves. And some of my best clients are the people that have gone to school to learn how to do what they want to do, a chiropractor or a massage therapist, the tradesperson, they know how to either pound nails Turner Ranch, adjust somebody's back, but they don't necessarily know how to do this thing called run a business. And so there's certain aspects that come into play because my my ideal market is that small business owner, entrepreneur and professional who's out there wanting to make a difference in their world, in their communities and their lives to make a bigger impact. But they're struggling to do that because they're trying to deal with all of the distractions and all the stuff that's coming at us. And it's like, how do I get a hold of that? How do I how do I focus on those things that truly matter that are going to move the needle for me and my business? And that's really where I come alongside them. Brian: And I say that specifically because I can't take the journey for you, but I'm happy to take the journey with you. And see, that's where the big challenge is, is a lot of people feel like they go to the seminar, which is, OK, here's how you go climb a mountain. Here's the equipment you're going to need and what happens to the trainer. They get all loaded up. They load them up and they say, go have fun. And they go walking down the path. And the river that they were told was a small creek is now this raging river, the bridge that they were supposed to be able to go across was washed out. And it's not like, what the heck am I supposed to do now? They weren't prepared for what they're going to experience or they didn't get enough information. That's one of the things that I always felt in the training classes and seminars I went to. I always felt like there was a piece of information missing. And there's only so much that somebody can teach you. You actually have to go experience it for yourself in order to develop those nuances that are really going to make a difference for you. Joe: Yeah, and I think that there are very, very, very few people in the world that can and you hit it on the head, the discipline that they will actually take, what they've learned, whether it's in a chorus, it's at a seminar or whatever, and actually implement it and be accountable to themselves. I think that's a really, really small pool of people. And so Brian: It is. Joe: Because the Olympics just happened, if we even made an analogy of like you went to class to become a gymnast and you said in a week long seminar to learn all of the different moves and tricks and flips and things, and then you just don't go and show up and start doing that. You have a coach that's watching you Brian: Right. Joe: And and helping you understand all of those things and the mechanics of it. So to me, that's what you're that's really where you help, is that you are there to, like I said earlier, to to to to push them, keep them on track, assist them with when they Brian: The. Joe: Hit roadblocks. You're by their side throughout the whole process. Right. Brian: Right, and I think so many times we have this misunderstanding because we've been taught that learning is going and sitting in class. And that's not necessarily true, but unfortunately, the self development industry has taken this model of let's bring them in, sit them down, overwhelm them with information, make them feel like they're drinking from a firehose so they feel like we've given them a tremendous amount of value and then send them on their way. And so the more people we can pack into that room, the better we make more money that way. Yeah, we actually end up doing a disservice to the customer, to the client, because at the end there is no support. And so how do you make sure somebody has what they need in order to actually achieve the results they want? And that is challenging along the way. And we've created several ways for people to do that because, again, money gets in the way. I mean, if you have enough money, you can find somebody that's going to come alongside and help you get to where you want to go. Joe: Mm hmm. Brian: But we actually started one hundred bucks a month. We've got programs where you can get that at least some help along the way to get you to where you want to go. And we grow from there. But it comes down to this process of how do we get you to take the actions you know you need to take? How do we get you to move forward consistently? And it's just like the example you used is great. The one that I love to use is the example of going to get into shape. You don't go to the gym for three days straight and be done. That doesn't cut Joe: It's. Brian: It. You know, usually you go once for a few hours and you're like, oh my God, you wake Joe: Yeah. Brian: Up the next day and you can't move. And so it's like, why would you expect you to be able to do that in the other areas of your life? Joe: Yeah, I go to the gym five days a week and I still am like, why don't I look better? So you're really in a great position to do this, because how many years did you spend in that whole seminar course kind of world? And I know you're still involved in some of it, but you helped run Brian: Well, Joe: Some Brian: I Joe: Of these. Brian: Yeah, I help promote Joe: Yep. Brian: To put them on the grand scheme of things, I didn't do that a lot. I was probably with them for maybe about a year before the franchise partnership broke up and therefore the franchise collapsed. But it was a great opportunity and I learned a lot going through that process. Back in starting in 2003, I joined Toastmasters and worked myself up over the number of years to become a semi-professional speaker when I wrote my first book and got kind of started in that. But I never really got traction and got that off the ground in this process. One of the things that happened was I shifted from Toastmasters into a leadership role in nonprofit organizations, specifically to the Boy Scouts. But one of the things I saw was because, again, I was focusing on the teaching aspect because I love watching that light bulb go off. But what I didn't realize was because I didn't see it in my life at the moment, at the time yet was that, again, teaching them was good. But coaching them is better because, again, it's about growth and it's part of my all the exercises and things I've done. I mean, I have done it easily. Quarter of a million dollars on personal development. I have bookcases and bookcases of books and tape series that are, you know, this is the pretty self I have, you know, boxes on wooden shelves and storage units full of books and stuff that I've consumed. And it's actually one of my coaching partners mentioned to me and from one of the coaching programs I was in, he says she said, Brian, you have a vault of ideas and strategies to help somebody to move forward. Brian: And so when they need it, you can provide it for them. And so really, it's about getting people to move. It's not about trying to teach you something new. It's about how can I get you to move forward and understanding how to motivate somebody to move. And he talks about the pleasure and pain principles. We move away from pain a lot easier than we do towards pleasure. But many times we only use pleasure as the incentive for us to do something. And a lot of times I'm working with some basic activities with somebody. One of the things that you can see it here in the video, if you're watching it, is my incredible results, 928 Challenge Journal, which is basically spending about 20 minutes each evening documenting what happened today, well, as planning tomorrow. And the first challenge that people come up with is doing it every day. So far, nobody has done ninety one days straight. There's a few that have come close. But on average, it takes people a good month to get into the habit of consistently writing in their journal. And so, again, it's about understanding what it takes to get people to move in the direction they have said they want to go and using those two buttons and pushing them at the right point to get things to to happen. And again, once we start getting that ball rolling and we start developing momentum, that's when it gets fun. Joe: So we are in the age of so many, like self education, know so many programs and classes and courses and all of this stuff on the Internet, right. You can find it everywhere. So and you might even admit to this yourself, because based on what you just said about having a shelf full of tapes and all of this stuff, what would you say to the there are people out there that are professional seminar attendees right there, their professional course. So, Brian: We call them seminar junkies. Joe: Ok, so Brian: Yeah, Joe: We Brian: I've been there. Joe: Ok, so this is good because you're coming from the understanding that Brian: Oh, yeah. Joe: One more seminar, a one more class or one more course is not going to make the difference. It's that you have to start implementing what you've already learned and actually admit to yourself that you haven't done the work or this is the work you need to do and actually come up with a plan. Right. It's just like we hear it a million times. It's just so hard for people to understand, myself included. I'm not I'm not preaching from a soapbox here that, you know, you have to have a roadmap. Right. Because if you wanted to get hop in your car today and drive somewhere, you need to know where you're going. Right. You would get lost. Brian: Yes. Joe: It's no different Brian: Yes. Joe: With our life. Right. So what would you say to those people that are listening to that do continue to just think that that next breakthrough is around the corner by buying yet another course are going to some sort of seminar or conference? Brian: Put down the Kool-Aid because you have drunk the Kool-Aid, Joe: Right. Brian: What they're actually doing is they're pursuing the feeling, the positive feelings they get when they go to the seminar. They're enjoying that high and over time that wears off and they want to change the way they feel. They get frustrated and they go, oh, I want to feel better. Their subconscious then says, OK, well, how do we make ourselves feel? How we do that? Let's go to another seminar. I talk about this in the master class. That is, we get stuck on this learning loop and we go and we learn some information. We get all excited and we go try it and we fail. And usually when we fail once or twice, we quit. It gets hard. It gets uncomfortable. And we don't like to stay there. We don't like we don't we want to don't want to go through that process of learning how to do it and do it long enough to get good enough at it that we actually get to the other side of. OK, I got this. You know, it's like learning to ride a bike. You're going to fall and the only way to get better is to have somebody let go in and you fall down. You got to go through that process. You've got to learn to you have to make the mistakes. You have to, quote, fail, because, again, it depends on how you define the word failure, because at the end of the day, we get to choose what things mean. My definition of failure is different than most people's. My definition of failure is you only fail when you quit or give up. Joe: Hmm, agreed. Brian: Or you don't even try. Joe: Yeah, so it's almost better that if someone had that itch, they should stop for a moment and say, OK, let's do this, let's just try something completely different that we've never done before. Let's actually hire a coach and spend the same amount of money that we would have spent on a course. But we have a coach with us by our side for however many months or a year or whatever, however long that is. That same amount of money could be spread out to have someone keep you accountable and help you to come up with a plan and stay on track and implement all the ideas. Right. Brian: Absolutely. Joe: It would be worth a try for anybody who's one of these. You could Digicom junkies to seminar junkies. Brian: Yeah, the seminar junkies, Joe: Yeah, Brian: Yes. Joe: Right. So it would be a change? Brian: What's Joe: Of course Brian: The Joe: It would Brian: Right Joe: Be. Brian: If what's your outcome? What do you want? Why are you going to that seminar? And there were several times where people said, well, what are you what do you expect from this? What do you want to learn from this? And people are sitting there throwing out answers. And I would be sitting in the background going, I really don't know. I don't I don't have an answer for that. Joe: Mm hmm. Brian: And that was kind of the clue is like, wait a minute, why am I here? Because I want to learn. That's not good enough. I want you to know I started getting specifics is I want to learn how to do such and such and such, and I want to be able to, you know, be successful at doing that. And, you know, whether that was real estate investing or personal development becoming a coach, a lot of those things was, OK, how do you do it? Because, again, we're learning about doing and we learn through doing much more powerfully. There's a difference between head understanding and gut level understanding. And so, first off, a coach, if you haven't had a coach before. I'll share a good story with you, because this is how I got introduced to coaching was I actually bought the up sell of a seminar program that actually included six monthly coaching sessions with one of the coaches that's kind of designed to help you do it. And my experience was I actually got more done in those six months than I had in the previous five years. I did more stuff. I made more progress. And as I went back and analyzed the even deeper, I did more the week before that phone call that I had the previous three weeks combined because I knew I was going to have to get on the phone with him. And again, we're leveraging fear and that pain to our advantage. That's one of the reasons why I wrote my last book on Leisure Fear. One of the strategies that I teach is how to make your friend and how you make sure your friend, as you turn fear around, it's pulling you forward instead of holding you back. Brian: And one of the ways that we do that, as we make it more painful to stay where you are than where you want to go and having to get on the phone call with me or on the Zoom call with me. And we sit in there and says, OK, Joe, you said last week you were going to accomplish these three things. How how far did you get on number one, how far did you get on number two? How far did you get on number three? Now, I don't beat you up if you don't get them done. What I'm doing is I'm wanting to get under neath it and understand the root cause of what's holding you back, because when I when we're able to do that, you see hole that was fear of criticism. That's what prevented me from making those sales calls. I needed to make up for the fear of rejection or whatever it was. And we talk about that. And then we because again, we get to choose what things mean. And so what does it mean to make a cold call? Most people hate cold calls. What if you could turn things around to where you loved cold calls? Because, again, you get to choose what things mean. You can love cold calls. And so, again, it's basically going in there and playing in the mind and shifting away the what the beliefs are, because that's what it comes down to it. That's what our life is all about, is how we feel and what we believe. And when we understand that we do everything in life to change the way we feel. It's really interesting on where things go from there. Joe: Yeah, and I think either I think I read something from your website, I believe, but something you said, I think that's where it was, but it was something about the moment we actually tell the world what it is that we want to do. We're accountable for it. Right then we everyone that that was in earshot of that or reads it somewhere on our website that we're now responsible to do it. And that's why so many people don't actually put that out there, because then they're like, oh, crap, I actually have to do that now. I said it. Brian: Right, Joe: I told Brian: Yeah. Joe: Everyone I was going to do this. Brian: But you're right, it comes down to we are afraid to put ourselves out there Joe: Mm hmm. Brian: Because we're afraid of being criticized now, we do have different types of people in our lives. We have people that I refer to as Krabs, and they're usually in your left hand. For those people who haven't heard the story, I'm sure you have. Is it if you put a crab in a five gallon bucket without a lid on it, it'll crawl out right Joe: Mm hmm. Brian: Easily. But if you put two crabs into that five gallon bucket without a lid, they won't crawl out. The more actually, the more crabs that are in there, the less likelihood that the crab is going to get away, because as that crab, they're programming mental instinct programming that we have within us is that to stay part of the group to follow the herd. Joe: Mm hmm. Brian: And if somebody is trying to climb out, they're going away. And so the rest of the group will pull them back down. And if he continues to do that time and time again, they will actually kill him. Joe: Oh, I didn't know that part of the story. Brian: Yes, well, the same thing is true with other people in our lives. We have people that are on the same level that we are or below us and we're wanting to grow. Now, that doesn't mean that they have negative intentions. They're actually doing it for a positive reason because, one, they don't want you to leave them, but they also don't want to see you get hurt. This is where our family comes in. Parents say, oh, you just sit still, Johnny, because you're not ready for that yet, or they don't want you to go pursue this thing that they perceive as scary, risky, and you're likely to get hurt. And so they're going to try to talk you out of going in, pursuing your great dream. But then there's other people that, again, they're just going to knock you down, they're going to pull you down. And if you've ever listened to Lester Brown, he talks about that and his family, he'd show up for Thanksgiving. And his brother goes, Hey, Les, how's that seminar speaking gig going? And it was almost I'm getting there. I'm getting there. I'm getting there. But we also have people that want to support us and help us. And so it's who are you going to listen to and who are you going to spend time with? And so but it's also important to be in that group of people. Brian: Your support people are in your right hand, your crabs are in your left hand. It's important to know who the person you're across the table with and who you're talking with on the phone. Is this person a crab or is this a supporter and then interact with them appropriately? Because if you're talking with a crab, you stay in the shallow end. You don't talk about your dreams. You talk about the weather, you talk about sports, you talk about whatever that is dull and boring at the time and not really enlightening to us, but allows us to maintain the relationship because there's times in our life when, yes, we can eliminate some of those crabs because other times they're related to us and we can't get rid of them. And so what do you do? So in part of it is, one, you reduce the amount of time, and then two, you understand who you're having the conversation with and understand they're coming to you with a positive intent. They're trying to keep you safe. They're trying to they want you to be happy and they want you to stay well and they don't want you to get hurt. But the same thing is true with our subconscious, which is why our biggest enemy is right up here Joe: Yep. Brian: Is the robot that runs the show 80 to 90 percent of the time. And that's where I spend a lot of time, is helping people reprogram the robot, their subconscious, because unfortunately, it was a program with a lot of crappy code and trying to reprogram it is not as easy as copy, delete and then copy and paste. It's not that easy. It's like the biggest, ugliest ball of spaghetti you've ever seen and trying to figure out where that thing goes. And it's a mess. It's just a mess in there. And but we do have the ability to go in there and change it. And the more we actively pursue that and focus on that and pursue growth, the faster we can get to where we want to go. Joe: So we're going to talk about the services you offer, but you touched upon something that in a previous episode that I had put out, I got a lot of comments about it. And so I want to talk about it as it relates to you personally. And then we can talk about how you use it with your clients. But you spoke about journaling. And the more and more I hear, either I have guest on or I hear people talk about it, the more and more I feel like it's almost got the same benefits as when people talk about meditating, how you can quiet the mind. It was all this fufu stuff many years ago and now it's becoming more the norm. Right? It's something that you need that quiet time. So tell me more about what you think journaling does for people and the importance of journaling Brian: Ok, well, Joe: And Brian: Actually. Joe: Whether or not you actually do it nightly or daily or I'd be Brian: Yes, Joe: Interested to know. Brian: Yes, the the if you can see it there, it says, a life worth living as a life worth recording. And so, Tony, he's inspired me to consistently journal. I have journals from my first in fact, in my latest move, I was going through a lot of them. And I came across the journal that I had right after college. And I was actually really interested to go back and see the progress of my first sales job that I bombed out. I lasted like three months. My experience was the story I was telling myself was different than the story that I was reading. And so, one, it's a great way to document your journey in life. But the way that I teach people to journal No. One is it leverages the power of evaluated experience because you stop and think about it. You probably have heard that experience is the best teacher. Yes and no, because unless we learn the lessons from that experience, then it was pointless. If we keep repeating the same mistakes over and over again, we keep doing the same thing and expect different results. We're not learning. We're not growing. And so journaling is a great way for you to document your journey, but also to stop and evaluate what happened today. What did I get done? Because many times we get to the end of the week, we get to the end of the month. Man, I feel like I didn't get anything done. And you can go back to the daily journal process and go, oh, yeah, well, I did that and I did that and I did that and I did that. Brian: But it also allows you to say, OK, what am I actually getting done? And is what I'm getting done, moving me in the direction I want to go? Because, again, we've talked about the journey that we're on. We have a goal we want to achieve. And in order to get there, we like you said, we have to have a plan. Many people don't put together the plan. In fact, many go study programs. And I listen to rarely was there any planning process involved. And so I actually stepped somebody through this. Exactly. And the incredible results on what they challenge is Ugo's. We set our big yearly goal and we break that down into what are we going to accomplish in the next ninety one days and then we break that down. This is OK. What's going to be month one? What's going to be month two? What's going to be month three? And then we break that down. OK, what's going to be week one of month one. What's going to be in week two. Week three, week four. Because again, the only way to get to complete the ninety one day journey is to each day make forward progress. And how do you make sure you're making forward progress if you never look at the map and compare your results, what you're getting to see if you're moving in the right direction. Brian: It's like a airplane taking off from New York to L.A. without a GPS system, without a method for them to course. Correct. You know, there's a reason why there's a compass in the airplane. There's a reason why there's a GPS in there that's consistently every moment checking in and saying, am I on track? Am I on track and making those little minor adjustments along the way? Because if you actually look at a slight wiggle from L.A. to New York, because there's turbulence up there, there's wind currents up there, lots of different things depending on which way you're flying. Are you flying with the jet stream or against the jet stream? All of these things are impacting that flight. The same thing is true in our life. How do we make sure we are on target? And journalese is one of the ways to do that. But we also encourage people. The way that the journal is set up is to do that evaluation experience where you document what you got done, you documents your lessons along the way, and you also document the changes that you want to make, the adjustments that are going to make tomorrow a better day. How can I be better tomorrow? And then you plan tomorrow. One of the biggest challenges we have is making sure we get the right stuff done. How do you make sure you make time to get those important but not urgent activities into your schedule? Because if you do not intentionally plan them and schedule them into your calendar, rarely, very rarely are they going to actually happen, which means you're never going to really make the progress you want to make, because stop and think about it, your goals require a lot of time and energy doing those things that are important but not urgent, which is another reason why having the accountability is a big factor in that. Brian: It's like, OK, it's it's not urgent, but oh, my coach is going to be asking about it. What do we just do? We created the needed urgency. Give you a perfect example. I had one of my clients. She wanted to raise her rates and so she'd been talking about it for months. And so we were working on the programming in her head so that she felt like she was worthy of that price increase, putting it off and putting it off. And this is OK, put and says, OK, what's the plan? And so we specifically detailed walk through the plan. OK, I need to put a sign up on the door and I need to send out a notification of my. People and I got an email and, you know, here's an opportunity for people to come in and sign up for a plan where they can lock in the current pricing. And I says, OK, when I come see you next week, I want to see the sign on the door. When you think you put the sign on the door right after that call, Joe: Ten minutes Brian: 15 Joe: Before Brian: Minutes Joe: You showed Brian: Before Joe: Up. Brian: I 15 minutes before I walked in the door. Exactly. And it wouldn't have happened if I had not pushed her to make that commitment. As a mom, what are we going to do? Are we just going to keep going down this road? Because that's one of things that we do, is we look at it, says, OK, what happens if you don't change? If you keep doing the same thing you're doing today over and over again, you're going to get the same results. Are you happy with that? Are you satisfied with it? If you're not, then what are you going to do differently tomorrow? That's going to change. The trajectory that you're going internally is a big piece of that is to help make sure that you are documenting your journey and you're evaluating the experiences that you're getting and making sure that they're taking you in the direction you want to go and if it's not making those adjustments along the way. Joe: Is the majority of the time it happens is at night, just before you go to bed sort of thing. Brian: One of the things that we designed the system to be very flexible. There's actually a place for people to write in their schedule and there's no numbers on it because I've got clients. It's wake up at five o'clock in the morning and then there's guys like me who don't start their day until seven, but I'm usually up till midnight. So, again, it just comes down to fitting it into your system. And that's actually one of the things we do within the group coaching calls is we're saying, how do I take this system that Brian has created and apply it to my life? How does this fit into my life? And we teach people how to do that. And I've got one client who does restoration work. So he's very much like a firefighter. The phone rings and it's like the alarm bell going off. He's got to go fix somebody's problem. So how does he schedule his day? And so we came up with a system on how to use the system because what happens if the alarm doesn't go off? What are you going to do? So we had a plan, a system and a Plan B system Joe: Mm Brian: For Joe: Hmm. Brian: It. We recommend the Evening Times for a couple of reasons. Number one, when you're planning tomorrow, you don't have to remember it. Actually, you get a better night's sleep. Joe: I get it off your brain. Brian: Right, and so your brain, is it trying to remember all the things you've got to do tomorrow? We also encourage now I have some people completed at their end of their workday. So at four thirty, when they go home at 5:00, I've got one woman who does it at three thirty before she go pick up her kid at school at 4:00 and she's basically document what did I get done? And she's also there's still some things potentially that she's going to do because we incorporate not just your business, but your life in the journal. And so it's like, OK, what am I going to be doing for all 16 hours? And I'm awake and relax and let go because so many times we struggle with constantly running. And there's a reason why there's a pad of paper and a pen on my bedside is because there's a lot of times I wake up in this ideas and I got to sit there and I get to write it down because I will not remember when I wake up in the morning. And so it just comes down. We try to get the system to fit the person, not the person to fit the system Joe: Mm hmm. Brian: Like so many of them do. But at the end of the day, it comes down to what works for you. We recommend in the evening because of the benefits there. There are some people that do it first thing in the morning. If that's the case, as long as you're doing the system, great. Joe: I just hear about it all the time, and I said I was going to start it after the last episode, that someone who was heavily into it, I even publicly said, all right, I got to start doing it and I still haven't done it. Brian: Well, let's have a conversation about that, Joe, because, again, at the end of the day, it's what is it going to take to get you to move? Joe: Yeah. Brian: And that's actually something that because, again, I've got numerous stories that I can tell you about people that because one of the one of the most common mistakes that people make when they're doing the journal is the fact that they only do it Monday through Friday. They don't do it Saturday, Sunday, because, again, like the woman who does it at the end of the workday, my question to them is, OK, that's good. But what are you going to do, come on Saturday, Sunday when you're not going to the office? What are you going to do then? And so we create a plan on how and then we got to you got to figure out how to make it work. And so I actually challenged several of the people to do it, says, OK, if you don't in. The other thing is, is not getting the journal done. The night before it was OK. If you don't do the journal the night before, you have to spend two minutes on a cold shower in the morning. I don't know about you, but yes, they talk about cold showers being this great, wonderful thing. But I don't want that in the morning. No, thank you. And so, again, we move away from paying much better than the the perceived pleasure. OK, and so it's creating the pain. So it was like, OK, you don't do the journal, not before you're going to take a cold shower or I mean, really what I would do is I give them a choice. I says you can either a take the cold shower or B, you have to text me that says I didn't do my journal last night. Which one do you think people chose? And I said, OK, those are your two choices. You have to choose the greater pain. Which one do you think they chose as the greater pain? Joe: I would think having the texture would be more of the pain. Brian: Yes, Joe: Yeah. Brian: Because that is admitting Joe: Yeah, Brian: That they failed, Joe: Yeah. Brian: Which just goes to show you the level of programming we have around failure. And so, again, it's using fear and pain to move you in the direction you want to go. Joe: All right, a lot to unpack there. So we only have a little bit of time left and I want to honor your time. So let's do this first. Let's talk about I have for services written down that you offer. And you might have added one. You might have taken one away. But I have your one on one coaching. I have the ninety one day challenge. I have the mastermind and then I have your weekly accountability coaching. And so can you just briefly give us an explanation of those. And if I missed one at it and if you're not doing one of them, take it away. Brian: Ok, well, as a coach, I need I don't know where you are, so I don't know which service to offer you or which one is the right fit for you, Joe: Mm hmm. Brian: You or your listener. And so I really start with what I refer to as a discovery session where we sit down and talk about where you are and where you want to go. And then based upon that conversation, we determine how to best help you. Now, where do people usually start? But most people start with the incredible results, starting with their challenge, because it is the one skill that helps people take the action they know they need to be taking that will help them reach their goals. And they see tremendous immediate results, positive results and benefits from participating in the program. And it's one that it's only one hundred and ninety seven dollars if somebody wanted to participate in it. But you got to come through me and do that discovery session in order to determine whether or not that's the good right fit for you. The other thing that is like rocket boosters on the on any one day challenge is the weekly accountability coaching calls and the incredible results. And what a challenge. We do a group coaching call where we are sitting down and we are we're talking how to help use the system, how to get the system to work and fit into your life, and how to help you consistently take action on it. But we also help you with your plan on accomplishing your ninety one day goal. So if your goal is to get 50 new clients, this is OK. What are you doing this week that's going to make you more clients? And we're talking about those different activities in those different ideas and strategies. Brian: So the problem is, is there's anywhere from five to 15 people on that call, depending on how many people are actually in the group at one time. And so it comes down to how do you get enough of my time to where we can truly focus on that programming piece that we've talked about, which is such a big, ugly mess that gets in the way all the time. That is where that one on one time comes in to, where we actually spend 30 minutes specifically talking. We it's a very specifically designed program, says, OK, here's what I'm going to do. Here's what I got done. Here's what I learned. And here's the changes I'm going to make so we can review that in eight to ten minutes pretty quickly. And then we spend the next twenty minutes digging into what got in the way. What's the challenge and struggle you're dealing with right now? That's either the bitch that you're in, the roadblock you're facing, or what's holding you back from moving forward. And that right there is tremendously powerful and makes the ninety one day challenge much more successful. And people who are participating in both their results that they get in and I know they challenge is heads and shoulders above the people that are just in the program by itself. Joe: Yep, and I have to ask this, because I'm sure if I was listening to this, it would be driving me nuts the entire time. It's like, why ninety one days? It's not 60, 30, 90, 120. Brian: It's seven times 13 is 91, seven days for 13 weeks. Joe: Steamworks got it. Brian: So because, again, one quarter is three months, which is four point three weeks, and so it's to get a full 13 weeks is ninety one days. Joe: Perfect. So we covered that and the Brian: Ok, Joe: Weekly accountability and then Brian: Right. Joe: The one on one coaching is. Brian: The one on one coaching I refer to I refer to as my general coaching, and that's where somebody is really wanting to grow and make changes. And a lot of times people will start off there. And again, they're wanting to do a lot of growth and unpacking and deal with the programming issues that are going on. And they're wanting to make some significant changes. Those are one hour sessions and those are usually each week as well where we're digging in and we're trying to figure out again, we're making some serious shifts in there. And then a lot of times it's like, OK, we got them straightened out and we got them on a path. We've created the plan. We've got the momentum going now and it's starting to move forward. And a lot of those people will roll into the accountability coaching so that they have the regular check ins that are getting done what they want to get done, but they don't need to necessarily. OK, let's dive in deep in there and start digging around. Those are wonderful sections. I love doing them, but they take a lot of energy on both myself as well as the person because we're going deep. Know, one of the things that you probably have learned by now listen to this is I don't like to play in the shallow end. I like to dive deep and I like to go under the covers. And if people aren't, that's the other thing is if you've got to be comfortable in playing in the deep end and there's a lot of times when my role as a coach is not to tell somebody what to do, I almost never do that because who's an expert on Joe and Joe's business, Joe is right. So my role is to ask you the questions that is going to help you come up with the answers and solutions to the problems that you're faced with that external perspective and to help you come up with the solution that is within yourself and that the mastermind is more Joe: That's Brian: At the upper Joe: Ok. Brian: Level Joe: Ok. Brian: And that right now is closed. So people are not available into that. And usually what happens is we start people off in the 90s when they challenge and there's those people are rolling up into that mastermind as they complete the 91 day challenge. Joe: Scott. Brian: But we start people off with where they are and what they can afford of what they need to do. And so we have programs that start, like I said, at one hundred dollars a month, up to twenty five to five thousand dollars a month, depending upon which program you're involved with. And there are other things that I do. I have mentioned Tony Robbins, but I have not mentioned John Maxwell, most certified coach, trainer and speaker of the John Maxwell team, which means for those people who are not familiar with John Maxwell, he's a world renowned leadership expert. And that was one of the big challenges that I saw was there was a lack of quality leadership in our world today. And because my target market is that small business owner, entrepreneur and professional, they have never really had much experience with leadership training. But again, I'm not a leadership trainer. I'm a leadership developer. And so we have leadership programs using John's world class material that over a period of 90 days, we teach you the strategies and you practice them for ninety one days so that you develop those skill sets along the way. And so, again, it depends upon where you are and what you need and what tool is necessary to help you fix the problem that you're up against. Because again, I use Stephen Covey, I use Joe Mitali. I will pick from anybody I need to and I will claim that everything that I share didn't originate with me. Brian: I'm standing on the shoulders of the giants that went before me as far as you know, all the way back to the Greeks, Aristotle and and some of those, because they had it first. They they mentioned it. And again, everybody since then is really just repackaging it from there. And if somebody wants to do a DIY version of it, pick a great book. Napoleon Hill's was probably the the godfather of personal development or at least modern person development with they can grow rich. And one of my mentors actually went and read the book and studied it over and over and over again. You probably have heard the suggestion that you should go read a book a week or so, go read 50 bucks a year. Right. I challenge you. That's not the right strategy if you're wanting to grow. It's a great way to learn information. But if you're wanting to make changes in your life. Yeah, one great book and read it 50 times, study it, do the exercises at the end of the chapter, implement the strategies. Another great one is Stephen Covey's Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. That that book still to date. That's one book I try to read at least once a year. And I'm usually listening to it because I'm taking advantage of the windshield time that I have. And it seems like there's always something more in there. Brian: That book is so deep and there's so many different levels that you can get into it as you grow. There's another level. There's another level. There's another level, which is how I spend a lot of my time. Yes, I have three different coaches and I'm constantly consuming more and more material. But there are there's about ten different books that I try to spend time reading consistently because they're the road maps, they're the foundational skills. And it's going to take for me to get to where I want to go. And it's only through consistently coming back to it. You don't become a master blackbelt by learning how to do the form and doing it perfectly. One time I believe it was Berklee that said, I don't fear the man that knows ten thousand ticks. I fear the man that is practiced one kick ten thousand times in the story that got you the story and the rest of the story was the example of that was he says will show me. And and basically what it was is because that person had practice that kicks so well. It doesn't matter if even if you know it's coming, you can't block it, you can't stop it. He has mastered how to do it regardless of what you do to counteract that. The only way to not get kicked is to not get into the fight. Joe: So. We're over a little bit, we have a few more minutes. Brian: Oh, yeah, I'm good. Joe: Ok, cool. So I want to ask you about because you mentioned since we're on the subject of books and you mentioned Joe Vitale and you were you are part of a book called The Abundance Factor. Brian: Yep. Joe: Can you tell me a little bit about that and how that came about and. Brian: Well, I was on the short list as Joe was looking to write his next compilation book, and I had been following him, been a fan of him, read a number of his books. I still practice one of one of the big things that sticks for me from Joe is the story of Hopital Pono. If you have not read the book Zero Factor, I highly recommend it. It's a very fascinating book. The mantra that that book teaches is something that actually helps me go to sleep at night because my brain has a hard time shutting down. And by saying that for phrase mantra helps my it's kind of a signal to my brain to stop thinking and go from into my head and into my body. And so it's really helpful there. And so I was on the short list of authors that Joe asked to help participate in that book. It's called The Abundance Factor. I knew the group of people that were pulling together. And so my chapter is called The Unpleasant Truth, because, again, there's a lot of people out there teaching because we're talking about the mindset of abundance, which is something that a lot of people struggle with. But it's hard for people to actually do it and practice it consistently. And that's really what my chapter was about. It was about taking the actions that the book is encouraging you to take. And so that's what my chapter is in that book. April of the year that it came out, we did hit the Amazon bestseller list with that book at the time. And it's been a great book. And I use it more of a as a calling card and as an introduction to myself when I'm meeting new people. Joe: And then you mentioned earlier about a book that you wrote that I did not actually see in my notes. So can you tell me about that? Right. Was Brian: Ok, Joe: There. Brian: I've written three books. Joe: Ok. Brian: The first book is called Ready, Set Succeed, which is a self published book. Again, it was another compilation with a series of different authors. And I've got several boxes of those still today that, again, I use them as is handouts. And it's, again, about taking action because again, that's what I saw people struggle with and implementation because again, at the end of the day, it's ready, set, succeed, go. You've got to get moving. And so we were all writing the chapter based upon that. It was a self published book. The only way that you can get that is to go through me to get that I'm aware of. And I actually did have a client come to me through that book for one of the other offers. They got it. They called me up and that chapter resonated with them. And it was an opportunity for me to help them out. Then we wrote The Abundance Factor, and then after that we wrote a book called Unleash Your Fear. And that book is available right now. You can go to unleash your fear dot com and get a copy of that. Right now, at this point in time, it is about a 40 page e-book. You can get a copy were actually read it to you for in about an hour. Brian: But that's one of our projects for the rest of this year, is to work on rewriting that book and expanding it to where it's around a hundred pages and we turn it into a physical book and using that as a methodology to share that message. Because as we've gone back and we've we've shared that message, we teach in a very powerful concept in that book about the relationship that people have with fear, because right now most people have a lousy relationship with fear. But fear is just a tool that's used by our subconscious. And our subconscious causes us problems because it's designed not to make us happy. It's not designed to make us successful. It's designed to make us survive. Problem is, when we do go out there, when we want to grow, when we want to succeed and we want more, it sees that as not surviving. That's risky. There's pain out there if we pursue those things. So how do we how do we change that? How do we work on that? That's what I've understood from the people that have read the book, that a lot of people enjoyed it and you can actually still get it for free for a little bit longer. Brian: We're in the process of getting that changed. You can go to unleash your fear Dotcom and get a copy of that book there. And once we get the expanded version, we will still be using that. You are all along the way. And so in this process, we've got a lot of great tools that are available to you. And we've talked about a lot. Joe, you're actually one of the longer podcasts that I've gone on and we've talked about a lot of different things. But one thing we haven't talked about is one of the foundations that I used for my coaching, which I refer to as the Five Keys of Success. And that's actually a podcast that I do called the Five Keys of Success podcast. And you can go out there to wherever you get your podcasts and Google five Keys successor Brian Lovegrove, and you'll be able to find it. And I talk about those five keys, because at the end of the day, because, again, I've been doing personal development for decades now. And so I boiled down all of that stuff to what is the true fundamental foundational skills and tools you need. And I came up with those five keys. You want to know what those five keys Joe: I Brian: Are? Joe: Do, I have actually you were not going to get off this podcast without talking about it, so I have them here. I still have other stuff. That's why I like that. Yes. So please, I totally want to these this is like one of the things that really triggered it. When I wanted to have you on as a guest, I'm like, man, I want to know what those are. Brian: Well, the five keys of success, the first key is clarity, and I refer to it as get clear because without clarity, you're lost, you're wandering around in a fog. If you don't have a destination, you're never going to be able to get there. And if you don't know where you are, how do you know how you're going to go from where you are to where you want to go? And we talked about the plan. If you are not clear on the plan on how to achieve your goal, you're not going to get there now. But there's some also challenges with that piece because, again, a lot of people may not necessarily know how to get to that point, but do you know how to get started? Because that's the key. Do you know what the next step is? How many people get bogged down with steps? Nine hundred and eighty seven through steps. Twelve hundred and eighty four. Well, what steps do you want? I'm on step five. What step six. I don't know. Focus on step six, seven, eight, nine. OK, focus on what's in front of you and these other steps you will figure out by the time you get to that point. The second key is commitment because without commitment we cave in to the fear. We don't have the motivation, the energy and the power to keep going when things get. And the analogy that I love to use is the story about Cortez. When he landed in The New World, he burned his boats. His men woke up the next morning and they went in. He addresses many gentlemen. There is no way home that we do not create for ourselves. And so his small band took on and conquered much larger nations and groups of people in South America because they were committed to making it happen because it was either do or die. Joe: I'm a big fan of burning the boats, by the way. Brian: Absolutely, that's one of the podcasts that we did, is, OK, how do you burn the boats? Joe: Yeah. Brian: And we kind of walk through that exercise and that's that can be a whole coaching process. My story around that was I used to weigh two hundred and sixty pounds and I went on a diet and I lost thirty five pounds in the first month and a half. It was a radical diet. And one of the things that I did on the back deck in the fire pit is I burn my fat jeans and I actually have a picture of you. It's it's at night. You can all you can really see the flames. You can barely make out the jeans as part of the picture. But I vividly remember that process. And I promised myself I would never buy that size pair of clothes ever again. Now, have I been able to keep off all the weight that I lost? No. But when my pants get tight, that option is not there. Joe: Yeah. Brian: It's like, OK, we got to do something, we got to turn this around because we are not buying a bigger sized pair of pants. And so, again, that's where that burning the boats actually comes in, which leads us to step three, which is get crankin or get busy taking action. Money talks about taking massive action. And, you know, how many times have I you know, I've tried everything. Really? How many times have you tried? What have you tried? A hundred things.

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Dr. Shawn Dill and Dr. Lacey Book - the Black Diamond Club, The Specific and more...

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 5, 2021 58:31

Dr. Shawn Dill and Dr. Lacey Book talked with me about so many things happening in their lives. Amongst the many of subjects we discussed, we talked about their book "None of Your Business: A Winning Approach to Turn Service Providers into Entrepreneurs", their organization the Black Diamond Club and their franchise business, The Specific Chiropractic Centers. It was great to talk with such a power couple as I like to call them and learn how they navigate through both their business and professional lives. The Black Diamond club is about helping service providers learn all the necessary tools to be successful while offering a community of support and like minded individuals. Their book gives you the tool in hand, to do the same. The Specific is their chiropractic franchise organization that helps chiropractic offices use a proven formula for growth is their specific realm of expertise being knee, chest, upper cervical specific clinics. I had a great with with Shawn and Lacey and I hope you get as much out of this episode as I did. Thanks for listening, Joe Dr. Shawn Dill & Dr. Lacey Book Owners - The Specific Chiropractic Centers Website: https://thespecific.com/ Founders - Black Diamond Club Website: https://blackdiamondclub.com/ Their mutual website: https://shawnandlacey.com/ Lacey's Info: Website: https://laceybook.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drlaceybook/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/drlaceybook/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/laceybook/ Shawn's Info: Website: https://shawndill.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drshawndill/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thespecific/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/dr-shawn-dill/ Emails: shawn@blackdiamondclub.com lacey@blackdiamondclub.com Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.libsyn.com Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to: https://joecostelloglobal.lybsyn.com Follow Joe: https://linktr.ee/joecostello Transcript Joe: Sean, Lacey, thanks for joining me on the podcast. I'm super excited after I went and looked at everything that you guys are doing. It's like I probably need a week with you on air. I'm exhausted, actually, from my research, but I'm excited about this. So welcome to the show. I appreciate it. Shawn & Lacey: Thank you so much. Boy, that's that's a I never heard that before, I don't think we hear stuff similar to that. I would say, though, it takes a little while, it takes a little while for us to explain what we do. Sometimes Joe: Yeah, Shawn & Lacey: I get that. Joe: There's a lot going on, so I'm going to jump right in, I might have a different approach than some podcasters. For me, it's really about the origin of where you came from, because I think that's missed a lot of times. And I like people that are listening to the podcast as either entrepreneurs that are in the throes of it and trying to figure stuff out or they're they're on their way up or people that are on the sidelines going mad. Do I really want to do this? I hear how hard it is to be an entrepreneur and and I'm one myself, so I know what it's like. And I would love to at least get your history first. And if you want, you can obviously you probably need to both do it separately because you you didn't all of a sudden disappear together as this good looking power couple that you are. And so I'd like to hear a little bit about each of your story and then the connection and then we'll go from there. And I promise I won't miss anything. I have a ton of notes so either of you can go first, whoever wants to. Shawn & Lacey: Well, Sean is a couple of years on me, so I'll let him go first chronological order, chronological order. Well, I'll accelerate through the early stages of my entrepreneurial development. Joe: Not too Shawn & Lacey: I Joe: Much, Shawn & Lacey: Graduated. Joe: Though, not too much, because it's I like to know who you were when you grew up, like it's Shawn & Lacey: Ok. Joe: Important because I think, you know, people just think all of a sudden, hey, Sean, at least he had a lucky. They they had rich parents and they grew up in an affluent neighborhood. And Sean's trajectory was to be a chiropractor the moment he was born. And and I think it's important for people to know that it's not that easy. And not everyone most of us don't come from that sort of direction Shawn & Lacey: Mm Joe: Early Shawn & Lacey: Hmm. Joe: On. Shawn & Lacey: Ok, well, my both of my parents worked nine to five job superimportant, and I would say we were sort of just middle class, maybe just above middle class. Not definitely not upper middle class. I distinctly remember for my age, wanting designer jeans, Jordache jeans, and I was allowed a pair of Jordache jeans. But my friends, they wore Jordache jeans every day. And so unless I wore the same jeans every day, I wasn't wearing designer jeans every day, hated to wear the lead jeans. I worked one of the things that super important as I worked during high school, shining shoes at a country club in Fort Wayne, Indiana. That was sort of my first real job making money. Of course, I mowed yards, but nothing like nothing super sexy from the entrepreneurial space. I was I had a job. But what I what I noticed was that the members at the country club, they were able to play golf on Wednesdays and Fridays and Saturdays and Sundays. And there I was shining their shoes every day and something sort of sparked in me that made me wonder how they had that lifestyle. I know that you've had conversations with Steve Sims, a similar thing. I think that people people have that sort of that moment when they question what makes you so different than me. Shawn & Lacey: So that was sort of my moment. I fell in love with this idea. I was like, I think that if you truly have made it in my life, you're 16 years old. I thought, like, well, then you could have a country club membership and you can play golf on Wednesdays and Fridays. That became something that was super important to me at a very early age. Now, I didn't play golf at that time. I was shining shoes, but then I went on. My cousin was a chiropractor. This was during the 80s. And the chiropractic space, the 1980s are known as the Mercedes 80s because insurance reimbursement was high. My cousin drove three BMW, so I think he had two BMW cars and he had a BMW motorcycle and his license plate was three BMW s three BMW. And I thought, well, that's really cool. You must really do well. If you if you're a chiropractor and a chiropractic experience, then my cousin really encouraged me to go to chiropractic college, go to chiropractic college. I'm very passionate about chiropractic. But what I realize is that just like culinary art school, when you go to culinary art school, you're being taught how to be a great chef and every great chef's dream is to own their own restaurant. Joe: Yeah. Shawn & Lacey: Well, the same thing in professional trade schools. If you go to become a dentist, a chiropractor, medical doctor, lawyer, they teach you how to be a great practitioner. And of course, every practitioner's dream is to own their own place. But I didn't really have the business education that would be necessary to be successful. I graduated chiropractic college at the age of twenty four. I knew everything there was to know in the world at twenty four. I mean you just Joe: Yes, Shawn & Lacey: That said, Joe: Absolutely. Shawn & Lacey: You know everything. So I moved from the United States to Costa Rica. I didn't speak any Spanish where Costa Rica. The primary language is Spanish. But you know, you figure that out later. And my first year in business was absolutely terrible. It was just it was terrible. I ended that year wondering if I made the right decision, one to be a chiropractor, to to be in business. And I had to make a decision to either, like, bite down hard and press forward or to throw in the towel. I could probably go back to the United States and get a job working for someone else. Thankfully for it, for my sake, I decided to press forward one more time. I caught a break. I was invited to be on a television show. My Spanish was still pretty terrible, so the show was pretty terrible. Imagine you're interviewing me and my English was so broken that you were trying to piece it together right like that. That's what we did. But then slowly I began to get my bearings with the language. I got better and my business blew up. We ended up having four chiropractic offices in Costa Rica. That was sort of my first taste of that magic called scale. I was like, wow, so we could do that, end up coming back to the United States. Shawn & Lacey: I have two daughters and wanted to get them into school here and then here I really that's when I got to the states. That was kind of why would accelerate that. But it is important to know where someone came from. That's really when that sort of entrepreneurial bug started to really develop. I opened up one office and had that bug to scale. We eventually created a chiropractic franchise called the Specific Chiropractic Center. We began consulting with chiropractors and then consulting outside of the chiropractic space. We've worked with some great many. Tours like Jay Abraham and David Meltzer, who began to encourage us to look at other verticals, so we started to get into the software space, we are in the digital marketing space. We do events, but they're all interrelates. It's not like a hodgepodge of things. They they're all sort of interconnected and that sort of then that acceleration on the on the backside, you know, we've just been super blessed. I think a lot of people that really have their game together did well during the pandemic. And so we were blessed through this through this year. And then, of course, you know, looking ahead, trying to prepare the business for what's to come. Joe: So all that was amazing, and I appreciate you doing that for me, and I think the audience will really appreciate it. The only question in the whole thing that I had, and I always hate interrupting, so I just kept quiet, was why Costa Rica? It seems like such a random thing to say. And even though I want to go there and I want to possibly live there, I get it now. But at twenty four y. Shawn & Lacey: I just told the story last night, and I remember we also have a podcast and I appreciate when podcast and they say I'm actually going to tell you the answer to that. The real answer, when I was in St. Louis at Chiropractic College, my roommate, he was dating a girl and eventually became a fiance. And her grandmother was the president of Nicaragua. And my roommate was like, we should go down and visit Nicaragua. I was like, yeah, let's do that. So we stayed. We ended up staying at her grandfather on the other side of the family at the grandfather's house. And we were invited to have a couple of meetings. We were exploring. I wanted to go to Nicaragua and we sat down with a guy and very nice. And he explained he talked to me and he said, Sean, you don't want to come to Nicaragua. Not safe, not good, not stable. If you like Nicaragua, for some reason, you should go to Costa Rica. And I was like, OK, well, that guy, his name was Popl tomorrow. And there's a book written. It's called Everybody Has His Own Gringo. Pulpo was Joe: Well. Shawn & Lacey: Oliver North's contact in this whole Iran Contra affair. I was sitting in his guy's office and he told me so Jamal told me, you don't want to come to Nicaragua, go to Costa Rica. I did. A couple of months later, I went to Costa Rica. Costa Rica was just absolutely beautiful. I was honestly, too, trying to escape something that's interesting from the health care space. I was trying to escape the advent of managed care. This was nineteen ninety five. Managed care was coming on the scene. People didn't really know what that was going to mean for the providers. And so I was like, look, I mean, again, I know everything. The best thing for me is to go to Costa Rica. First it was Nicaragua and then I was convinced by some very powerful people that I should go to Costa Rica instead. Joe: That's amazing. All right, well, and did you end up buying any property there because by now everyone wants to be there and everyone wants to own property. Shawn & Lacey: I did, but I sold that property when we moved back to the United States. That was the other thing is that I worked very hard. You know, we may dive into that at some point here in our discussion as an entrepreneur. So people always ask me, like, wow, you're in Costa Rica like, what's your favorite beach? And honestly, the answer is, I don't know. I was working like a given. We have a home in Florida, but if you're working, you're not at the beach. So just because you live in Florida doesn't mean you're like out renting jet skis or doing all of these things every day. Yeah. Joe: Yeah, well, great, well, that's awesome. Well, I appreciate you doing that, Lacey, it's your turn now. I want to hear about you. Shawn & Lacey: Wonderful, and I'll fill in some of the gaps that Joe: Perfect, Shawn & Lacey: John glossed Joe: Perfect. Shawn & Lacey: Over when the two of us came together, so for me, I grew up a little bit differently. I actually grew up in Silicon Valley in Northern California. And you think Silicon Valley and you think just that the tech capital of the United States and it really was like that. I remember when I grew up, I literally grew up around the corner from Netflix when it was in one little tiny office and I could walk there from my home. But that didn't mean that I grew up with a lot of money. And so majority of my life, we actually lived off of a single family income. My mother worked. My dad, my father was a lot older and so he retired pretty early on in my childhood. And so my mom was really solely responsible for the money in our household, which especially in California, didn't go very far. Joe: The. Shawn & Lacey: And so for me, I actually started working since the day I turned 14. We got some permission from the school and I worked at a really horrible but really fun second run movie theater, probably doing things that no kids should have done. But it taught me a lot, taught me a lot about customer service and really being able to take care of people. And honestly, I can say to this point, I've never stopped working since that day. I've always been a go getter, I think for me, because we didn't have a lot. I always just had this desire for more. And on top of that, I a lot of people out there may relate to this because I wanted more. I had a rebellious side of me. I always wanted to to to break the limits, break the mold. And so I thrived in almost every job I had when I went to undergrad. Since I paid for it myself, I worked three jobs and went to school to get it done. And so I always had that spirit in me, but I never had the knowledge or the intellect or know how. Shawn & Lacey: I don't know how to put it all together. And I ended up going to chiropractic school. And along that road is when I met Sean and just I was just as passionate about chiropractic as he was and ended up we ended up working together in that office that he started in California. And then from there, that's where the two of us started our relationship and started working together as well. And I remember at that time, I we want to talk about beginnings. We tell this story a lot because that was in two thousand and eleven and we were in a six hundred and twenty five square foot apartment. I had a ton of debt coming out of school. Like carpenters come out of school with around two hundred and fifty thousand dollars in debt. He had just come to the United States quite a few years before that, but was still, I mean, really starting from scratch. So we had the six hundred twenty five square foot apartment and we had the two girls that are two kids there as well. I Joe: Scott. Shawn & Lacey: Mean, it was teeny tiny. And we always tell the story of our green couch because at that time we had no money. We had to get a hand-me-down couch from another student that was at the school that moved away. And that's what our girls slept on. And so oftentimes I know and I love that you said that because people automatically think, well, maybe they maybe they had opportunity. I didn't maybe they were blessed. Maybe they grew up that way. Honestly, not only did not grow up that way, but in 2011, it was actually worse. Right. We didn't know what we were going to do with the our actually I didn't know I should say I was the one in the relationship that really struggled with a lack of mentality. Sean has always thought very abundantly. And so we really had to work that out in our relationship to make it work. But the other thing about us is not only were we passionate about chiropractic, we're passionate about helping other people. And so that's what allowed us to go on that trajectory of having our chiropractic franchise and then becoming consultants for people that are service based entrepreneurs and really growing to where we are at today. And that's how we end up sitting here before you. And so it was it was a lot of work, a lot of struggle, a lot of wrong decisions, but mostly just a desire and a tenacity to continue to reach more people and make an impact. Joe: Yeah, and it's so I understand why Sean got into it, because he saw his cousin with the three BMW, right. It made sense. What triggered you to take that path? Shawn & Lacey: You know, it's really interesting, I was actually thinking about when he was telling that story. It's funny because I've heard that story many times. But where I grew up, because because it was Silicon Valley, I was surrounded by money, surrounded by it. There was a lot of entrepreneurs. There are a lot of people in the tech world. The high school that I went to, I, I drove the Cruddas car in the whole parking lot like it was so bad that it was like of those felt ceilings. You remember Joe: Yes. Shawn & Lacey: When they had that and the glue had melted Joe: Yes, Shawn & Lacey: Off. So the Joe: The liner Shawn & Lacey: Felt Joe: The Shawn & Lacey: With Joe: Liner starts Shawn & Lacey: The liner, yeah, it would be bumping my head Joe: Right. Shawn & Lacey: And I would have to tack it up. And I think for me, I would I would boil it down to one word and it was contrast. I was able to see what those what that life could look like Joe: Mm hmm. Shawn & Lacey: In stark contrast to where I was. And so I always wanted to have the opportunity in my own life like I saw like that my that my friends had. And it wasn't that I grew up in a bad household. My parents were amazing and phenomenal. But it's just when you grow up around that, you go, how do I get that? What do I need to do? How hard do I need to work? And so I think that a lot of that came down to it for me. Joe: That's great. So, Sean, real quick, you you and I are probably close to the same age, I might even be older, but the we had parents from potentially the Depression era. Right. Or at least my mother Shawn & Lacey: Oh. Joe: Came from that. So it was always even though they were encouraging, my father was more encouraging for some reason, it was just in his DNA. My mother was like the safety thing. Like, No, you just got to get a good job, work hard, go to school, go to whatever. And every time I wanted to dip my toe in an entrepreneurial pool, she was always like, Are you sure about this? Even as I got older when I was literally being successful doing various companies that I opened. So Lacey said that her parents were very supportive. How about you and your your parents? Shawn & Lacey: You know, my parents, and it's not that her parents were not supportive, but probably my parents were more supportive of of of just sort of the idea of being an entrepreneur. However, right now, as we are speaking, my parents don't really know what we do. So I still ask all the time, what do you guys actually Joe: Hey, Shawn & Lacey: Do Joe: I Shawn & Lacey: Exactly? Joe: Can't I can't blame them, because if you look at the websites and the events that you guys are like, my head is spinning, so I get it. Shawn & Lacey: But I I also was lucky that and I just think there's about people I think if you have a conversation with somebody and you dive deep enough, superstars in life have superstar characteristics and they exhibit superstar characteristics early on, most people don't realize that they are they themselves are Joe: Yeah. Shawn & Lacey: Superstars. But if you look at people that are successful, they have sort of these sort of interesting ways that they were successful. So I suppose I excelled in academics. My mother told me as an adult that there were many times that she was like, hey, are you going to study for that test? And I was like, now? And that she she was like, it was a dilemma as a mother because she wanted me to fail so I would learn the lesson. Joe: Yeah. Shawn & Lacey: But I never did. And she's like, somehow you just kept getting through. And I got great grades and I was successful in music. And so they at least in the area of music, I when I left high school, I either wanted to be a professional soccer player or a professional musician playing the saxophone. I went to Indiana University, which has Joe: Great Shawn & Lacey: A very Joe: School, Shawn & Lacey: Good soccer Joe: Great, Shawn & Lacey: Team and a great music program, Joe: Great. Shawn & Lacey: And it took me less than a semester to figure out that I wasn't going to be able to do either one of those. And so then I had to kind of figure out. But they were always very supportive in the sense of do what you want. I think also to a contrast, I didn't have any school debt compared to Lacey's two hundred and fifty thousand. So my parents at least, you know, they were they were, though, of that mindset. Right. You know, buy a house, save money, pay for your kid's education. That was the mark of success. And I was I was the beneficiary of that. And they were also very, very supportive. I will say to I think actually I'm more like you, Joe. Yeah. Yeah, Joe: Oh, yeah. Shawn & Lacey: Actually, Joe: Ok. Shawn & Lacey: Yeah. My my father was born in nineteen twenty seven Joe: Oh, and my Shawn & Lacey: And Joe: Father Shawn & Lacey: So. Joe: Was born in nineteen twenty nine, so. Shawn & Lacey: Yeah, and so I actually grew up and my mother, my father, it was in his DNA to just to just to just love one on me and like just say you can do these things. My mother was actually the worrywart. Joe: Yeah, Shawn & Lacey: And Joe: Exactly. Shawn & Lacey: So I always say she was one of those people that could could find the worst case scenario and anything. Right. And and that and I don't know if you can relate to that, but I meet a lot of people that, yeah, I Joe: Gosh. Shawn & Lacey: Grew up that grew up with somebody. And so it would be like, OK, but if you do this, here's what could happen. Right. So it was a it was an interesting, I think, balance that the two of them played in my in my life and I was in the middle of it. And so for me, I wasn't like Sean. Like I instead I pushed back and try to do everything as independently as I could. Right. And so it was very different, I think, growing up. Joe: God, it's so nice to meet someone who had the same dichotomy of the father and the mother, and it was she was so protective and so fearful because Shawn & Lacey: Yes. Joe: She they they had an alcoholic father who left. They had just there. Shawn & Lacey: My mom, too. Joe: Yeah. They just scrounged for everything. It was just it was devastating for them when they were young. So she didn't want any of those. She didn't want me to take any chances at all. But I was the middle child. I was the one that just constantly bought the system. And she just Shawn & Lacey: Yep. Joe: My poor mother, I from God. Man, old Shawn & Lacey: I Joe: Man. Shawn & Lacey: Know I said I told my mom, too, I don't know how you how you did it with me, No. One. And then we fed into their worrying, Joe: Mm Shawn & Lacey: Right, Joe: Hmm. Shawn & Lacey: Because Joe: Yeah, Shawn & Lacey: We kept bucking back. Joe: Yeah, Shawn & Lacey: So, Joe: Yeah, well, Shawn & Lacey: You know. Joe: That's that's awesome. So, OK, so you meet and it's is it twenty eleven when you well you met before then but twenty eleven is when you kind of really started this relationship and partnership. Shawn & Lacey: Yep. Joe: Is that true Shawn & Lacey: Yeah, Joe: For Shawn & Lacey: We met in 2006, Joe: Ok. Shawn & Lacey: And then I think we started dating like end of 2010, yeah. Joe: Ok, and you had one chiropractic location out in California. Shawn & Lacey: Yes. Joe: Ok, so what is the conversation that happens that you say, OK, we can do more than this and we can open up either other offices of our own or we've created such a successful practice that we could actually duplicate this and franchise it? I don't know what came first or how, but I'm Shawn & Lacey: Let Joe: Interested Shawn & Lacey: Me give you an idea Joe: Because there's Shawn & Lacey: The Joe: Many Shawn & Lacey: Answer Joe: Business Shawn & Lacey: To Joe: Out Shawn & Lacey: That. Joe: There that, like, I have a entertainment booking agency and I have systems in place that if I got ran over by bus today, literally someone could walk in and everything goes in order Shawn & Lacey: It's Joe: And Shawn & Lacey: Great. Joe: It's all planned out and it's totally franchise able. If I ever wanted to do that, I'm probably too old to do something like that. So but how did you how did this conversation happen? Because I looked in all the locations you have in some of them, you have multiple one of the locations. You have four offices alone in it, right? Four. Shawn & Lacey: Mm hmm. Joe: So you guys really blew this up. And I'd love for the audience who has this maybe in the back of their mind. How does someone go about this conversation and then take those steps? And I know that's part of what you also do in your training. So we're going to get to all of that. But this interests Shawn & Lacey: Absolutely. Joe: Me as well. Shawn & Lacey: So I think even if someone is listening, we are two people, but anybody listening is probably had this conversation with themselves as if even if you're one person, sort of this, you know, white right shoulder, left shoulder, good angel, bad angel. However you want to configure it. I my role in that, that is that my mindset always has been one of superabundance. I'm one that is the opposite of the risk of, you know, this is all the bad things that can happen. My position is always like, yeah, but this is all the cool stuff that could happen if it went the other way. And that's sort of where my my focus goes. Lacey can share that hers is is different and how it's different. But I always thought that man, we could just figure this out and then really what that the desire was for me was to reach as many people as possible. That was one of my big lessons in Costa Rica. I remember I had four offices in Costa Rica. There's four million people in Costa Rica. And what I realized was that four million at that time. There's probably more now. But what I realized is that I wasn't even making a dent. I was like, we've got four when we were busy, like my office was seeing two hundred and fifty patient visits, patient transactions per day, Joe: Oh, my Shawn & Lacey: Five Joe: Gosh. Shawn & Lacey: And a half days a week. People were pouring in. And I'm like, and we're still not making it that we're not we're not getting close like we're not. We would need to have such an incredible infrastructure to really reach more people. And that was sort of a big transition for me. I think that people that want to scale in the sense of multiple units, franchising, etc., as you come to this realization that you're just one person, seven billion people on the planet, this podcast, the reason why we agree to come on it is because it amplifies our voice, the people that are listening to the podcast or the people that don't normally listen to us and vice versa. And so the effort is gaining leverage by being able to scale your message for me and being in the service world to reach more people. So that was always in the back of my mind. I wanted people I wanted to just reach more people. Now, then, your question. So that's the pre answer, because then your question is like, so what does the conversation look like? And that's not as easy, because if it were that easy, everybody would do it. I always say people that are in the service world that have a passion to reach a lot of people, that is the answer. Well, then why don't they do that? Because here's the scariest thing to do before he adds sort of what that transition look like is that in the service world, if we are if we really believe that we are impacting and changing people's lives fundamentally by whatever it is we do, whether you're a massage therapist or a hairstylist or whatever you do, like you feel like the person on the other side of the transaction, that their life is radically changed as a result of your doing it. Shawn & Lacey: Don't you actually have an obligation then to reach as many people as possible? And I'll add to that and scale, because this is the problem. If you were run over by a bus and you hadn't put the systems in place, then the entire thing stops with you. Even the people that you are currently serving, they just all of a sudden don't have a way to continue on. So that's always been in my mind. Now, going to lazy and saying, yeah, let's just open up a bunch of those with zero money that is not necessarily very well received. And so she can tell you. Yeah, and people ask us all the time where you guys work together, you do everything together, you live together. And so very early on, I mean, one of the reasons I fell in love with Sean is his his ability not just to be just a visionary, but his ability to be a strategic visionary, like to see so many moves ahead, because the way that I grew up, I was taught to look at the very thing in front of you. Shawn & Lacey: Right. And so it's a very different way of going about and doing business. Not to say that I'm not a risk taker, but I just do it differently. And so we were very lucky because people saw the model that Sean had created with that original office and fell in love with it. It was all cash, no insurance, a very specific type of technique that we do. And they said, I, I want in on that. I want you to teach me how to do that. But here's the problem. He was still working in the office seeing patients with me. And it doesn't matter if you're in a relationship with somebody working together or you're in a partnership with somebody working together. What we learned very quickly is that we were doing the work of one person as two people, super inefficient. And so he's like, we need to we need a scale. We need to grow. But I'm being selfish. And I wanted him to stay and work in the office with me. And so I had a life coach. She was Russian. So she was very straightforward. Joe: Yes. Shawn & Lacey: She and she said she she didn't have a filter. And she literally said to me one day, she said. I want you to know that what I'm feeling is that you're holding Sean back from being able to do the thing that he's good at. It's like so crazy. Why Joe: Not Shawn & Lacey: Would you say Joe: Me, Shawn & Lacey: Something Joe: Be Shawn & Lacey: Like that? Joe: Right. Shawn & Lacey: Come on. And luckily, I don't I'm not an individual takes things personally. And so I went home to Sean and I said, you know, Cachalia, my life coach, she said this crazy thing to me. She said, I'm holding you back. And he looked me dead in the face. And he said, You are. And so the very next day, that's when he started doing his thing. And he never came in the office again. And because I'm an executer and I'm really good at that and I'm great at systems and infrastructure, that's my superpower. And I recognize that. And I recognize that he's a strategic visionary by having that separation and allowing us to do what we were strongest at, I think, was the catapult to allow us to scale that business specifically. Joe: And that is such an important thing that you just said, and I think it's the biggest problem with partnerships and like you said, even though you're married and you're also partners in a business, I think I learned this from a couple of restaurant owners that I'm friends with that are no longer in the business together. But just because one of them retired was that they had very strategic like a line in the sand. And this is your side of the room and this is my side of the room. And one of them was all front of house and the other one was all the back and part of it. And it was they never crossed those lines. And I think that's important to maybe like you said, you make a list of your superpowers and you say, OK, here's all the things I'm good at. I'm going to take all of that on my shoulders as part of the business. And do you agree or disagree? These are all the things that you're really good at. You take all those. I think that's a recipe for success. And it's so important that you said that. I think that's missed a lot. Everyone they Shawn & Lacey: It Joe: All Shawn & Lacey: Is. Joe: It's just like this is a big pot of soup and everybody wants to stir and you Shawn & Lacey: Yeah, Joe: Can. Shawn & Lacey: Yeah, let me get some Joe: Yeah, Shawn & Lacey: Of that you don't know what you're getting, Joe: Yeah, Shawn & Lacey: Right, Joe: Yeah. Shawn & Lacey: And I'll tell you, Joe, the other thing that we did when we learned that lesson is we translated that into our are the personal side of our life. And so we created very clear lines and roles and things that we do in our household as well, because that that we want that to be just as successful as our businesses. So it's never a question of who's doing the laundry or the dishes or responsible for shopping or paying the bills. It's never like, did you do that? Why didn't you do that? We know who does what. And that helps actually in that personal side of things as well. And it was just a great lesson to adopt on both ends. Joe: See, I knew I loved you guys. This Shawn & Lacey: Gus. Joe: Is good looking power couple, just I mean, Joel and my life partner were the exact same way. We've been together for twenty two years. We we do Shawn & Lacey: All that. Joe: Stuff together and we just it's just a perfect situation. But it takes like anything. All the little stumbles along the way. But you figure it out. But it's I love that. That's awesome. And I bet you're the only person who has the run of the house is Dexter. Shawn & Lacey: Oh, Joe: You're Shawn & Lacey: My gosh, Joe: Right. Dexter Shawn & Lacey: Yes. Joe: Gets away with anything. Dexter is your Shawn & Lacey: Well, Joe: Right. Shawn & Lacey: How could you tell he's here, somebody somewhere Joe: There is. Shawn & Lacey: He was scratching at the door and I just had to tell texting our team, get the dog. Somebody needs to get the dog. Joe: That's Shawn & Lacey: Yes. Yes, he has the run of the house. I'm sure you could tell. Joe: Right. That's awesome. OK, so what's the time frame when you opened up the second office or you started the franchise, however that happened. Shawn & Lacey: I'm just going to clarify for you some of these questions, my sense of time, that is my weakness. So if if Laci said it was three years after or said it was three months after, I would agree with either answer. So I'm going to have to if you ask me, how long have you known Laci? I Joe: I Shawn & Lacey: Don't know. Joe: Am exactly the same way. When did you meet, like where? I don't remember. Sorry. Shawn & Lacey: Do you want to know how bad is actually at time that he he thought it was the most brilliant idea and somehow he talked me into it for us to get married on my birthday, which also happens to be New Year's Eve. So he will never forget the dates on any of those. Joe: That's Shawn & Lacey: Talk Joe: Not Shawn & Lacey: About a smart businessman. Joe: True and that's not fair. She gets ripped off on two other holidays. Shawn & Lacey: No, that's false, and it's the world's biggest party on her birthday Joe: Oh, Shawn & Lacey: And Joe: My Shawn & Lacey: On Joe: God. Shawn & Lacey: Our anniversary, it's the best. So Joe: Oh, God. Shawn & Lacey: So two thousand nine is when people started coming and saying, I want to get in on this model. Joe: And Shawn & Lacey: And Joe: I'm Shawn & Lacey: We had. Joe: Sorry and I hate to interrupt you, but when you say Shawn & Lacey: Yeah. Joe: People because you brought this up a couple of times Shawn & Lacey: Oh, Joe: Now, Shawn & Lacey: Yeah. Joe: I don't understand who those people would be. They wouldn't necessarily be patients. They would be people that are in the chiropractic industry. And they look at you as being, wow, you guys are killing and how do I do that? Shawn & Lacey: Yeah, and I should probably I think for context, I don't know if you said it in your in your intro, your story, but when Sean came back from Costa Rica, because literally he was starting over, the first thing he did was take a job at the chiropractic college. I don't know if we had mentioned Joe: No. Shawn & Lacey: That before. Joe: Ok, perfect. Shawn & Lacey: And so he was at the chiropractic school and he was teaching chiropractic philosophy. And then he was teaching like the one real business class that they had at the school. And so that gave him exposure to a lot of other chiropractic students, people that were graduating to see and understand the way that he viewed business and what we were trying to do with the specific chiropractic centers. So those are the individuals that said, I want to be part of this. I see the vision. I see where you're going. I love the model. And early on, we actually had it created as a licensing model. But that just gets a little bit sticky for anybody out there that's trying to scale in a licensing model. You really have to have ownership, I guess, and all of them. But a true franchise, it takes time, money, energy and a lot of good advice to to create, especially in health care. So we had about six offices that were under the licensing model and we went moved into a legitimate franchise and then grew from there in two thousand and sixteen. Joe: Ok, and so how many do you have now? Shawn & Lacey: 13. Joe: Wow, that's incredible. Shawn & Lacey: And they span from we have to in Hawaii and then they go all the way to Tennessee. So far, this Joe: That's Shawn & Lacey: One. Joe: Incredible. Shawn & Lacey: No. Joe: Yeah, you guys are killing it. I love this story, and that's why I said I was so excited to have you on and I was like, I'm going to need hours to interview these two. There's just like so many things. OK, so the most important thing, not the most important thing, but one thing I want to touch upon, because there's I'm sure the people that are listening to this and eventually watching the YouTube version of this are going to say, how do I learn more? That is not going to get covered in the short time that we have together. So you put out a book called None of Your Business in twenty nineteen. And it's a winning approach to turn service providers into entrepreneurs. And I love that because even when I listen to a little bit of your interview with Steve Sims, it Shawn & Lacey: You. Joe: Was it was like it's more than just providing a service. You are it's not transactional, right? It's more of like you're doing something you're passionate about. And the ultimate thing at the end is that, you know, you've helped somebody. It's Shawn & Lacey: Mm Joe: That Shawn & Lacey: Hmm. Joe: To me, that's what it is for me for sure. With everything that I do, it's like, how can I help did this? How can I help you, you know, those sort of things. So I feel like that's the approach that that I get from the both of you and what your book is about. So can you talk a little bit about the book? Shawn & Lacey: Yeah, the book definitely has more in depth, our story, plus the fundamentals that we teach from from marketing sales mindset, and we've had to do a ton of work together as a couple on mindset mindset. You can have all of the right instruction and do all of the right things, but your mindset could blow that. And part of that is exactly what you are talking about. Sometimes service providers shoot themselves in the foot because they want to help a lot of people. And that becomes overwhelming to the point that that desire to serve destroys the business. And so you have a business hand and a service hand. Basically, these two hands are coexisting, but they really can't meet because they they they are they are the antithesis to the business hands. Like, we have to make money. The service hands, like, well, we should just give it away for free. And so how do you reconcile that and be successful? And ultimately, you know, it all circles back to if you really do have this wonderful service that can change the world, the fuel that makes it go as a successful business in all businesses, every single business in the world, the sole reason for their existence is to make a profit, because if there is no profit in the business can exist and then people can't be serviced, can't be helped, can't be changed, can't be impacted. And so service providers really have a hard time with that. And so Joe: Oh, Shawn & Lacey: That's why Joe: Yeah. Shawn & Lacey: The book. Right. And fundamentally, before we wrote the book, the premise was, is that the world's greatest service providers in the world live in relative obscurity. We don't know, you know, and I'm not knocking him. I've had the opportunity to meet him. He's a phenomenal guy. But the world doesn't know what kind of doctor Dr. Oz is Joe: The. Shawn & Lacey: And whether he's good. But he's on TV and that makes him, in our eyes, have a degree of reverence for him or belief and credibility in him. But there are people that are phenomenal musicians and artists, practitioners, hairstyles and everything, but nobody knows who they are because they refuse to embrace the business concepts that would bring their message to more people. And so that's why we wrote the book. Joe: And you hit on another thing that even at my age, it took me forever to not feel like making money was this dirty thing. Right. And our mutual friend, David Meltzer, he talks about it in such great ways that he expresses how you've got to help yourself so you can then help others. Right. You have to make sure that you and then your family and it's just changing. That whole dynamic of making money is not an awful thing and not a dirty thing. And just it I don't know. It's it's such a it was such a struggle for so long. I just I felt like, yeah. Let's just give it away. Like, I'll do this for pennies. I just want you to be happy and I can't it's not sustainable. Shawn & Lacey: Yeah, you can't give what you don't have. Joe: Yeah. Shawn & Lacey: I mean, and that's a lesson that we've learned many times over. I mean, you can't you can't serve out of abundance if you don't have abundance. I mean, it's very difficult. And that's the best way to reach a lot of people and make a bigger impact as to be is to be financially stable or financially full because it allows you to go out there and do the things that you need to do in order to reach them. And so that's what we that's our passion is to help service entrepreneurs to really fall in love with that idea so that they can not only touch the people and help the people that they're trying to serve, but that so they can get out of it the life that they desire to Joe: Yeah, Shawn & Lacey: Write because Joe: Yeah, Shawn & Lacey: They deserve it. Joe: Yeah, Shawn & Lacey: So, Joe: Yeah, and Shawn & Lacey: Yeah. Joe: Yeah, that's it, they deserve it, it's people Shawn & Lacey: Yeah. Joe: Don't think they deserve to have this success and Shawn & Lacey: Right. Joe: Whether it's business or financial or family or whatever it might be, it's it's amazing. The specific dotcom is all about the chiropractic offices and all of this is the franchise piece of that. Is that Shawn & Lacey: The Joe: Correct? OK, great. Shawn & Lacey: Correct. Joe: So we've already talked about that. So then we have this is where it gets complicated. And this might just be because you had certain websites before the websites and then you kept so you have you have one in together, right. So you have Sean and Lacy Dotcom and Shawn & Lacey: Yeah. Joe: Then you have Sean del Dotcom. And then on top Shawn & Lacey: There's Joe: Of Shawn & Lacey: Also Joe: That. Shawn & Lacey: Makes it look like we need to Joe: Oh Shawn & Lacey: Clean all Joe: Yes. Shawn & Lacey: These up, no. Joe: So it's just so and at the end I'm going to do this and all the show notes and everybody will know where to find you everywhere. So it won't matter. But so is it important to talk about Sean and Lacey Dotcom and Sean Del Dotcom at this point, or is it better to talk about the Black Diamond Club dotcom? Shawn & Lacey: Like Diamond Club Dotcom. Joe: I mean, we could talk about it all, I just don't I Shawn & Lacey: Yeah, no. Joe: We only have a little bit more time, but I want to make sure we get through everything and I want to also make sure that we promote the August event coming up in Carmel, Indiana. So let's talk about Black Diamond Club, because that'll segway into what you're Shawn & Lacey: Hmm. Joe: Doing with that organization, the events that you have and all of that. Shawn & Lacey: Yes, a black diamond club is the place where service entrepreneurs go to receive instruction or marketing sales mindset. But I think more importantly, support and accountability. Six hundred and twenty plus service providers that are all there sharing best practices. One of the things that people always talk about that the fast food drive thru concept is not a restaurant concept. It's a banking concept. Banks really don't. Few banks have that little tube thing that goes back and forth. But they were the ones that introduced this banking from your car, the restaurant industry. It was a swipe and deploy like that's genius. Can we put it in our and McDonald's and then they don't have to get out of their car and come in. And I always say, like, think about how much you could learn if you weren't just surrounded by people in your industry like you. You found out what other industries were doing well. And then you actually thought about how can you apply that into your industry? And that's really what Black Diamond Club is about, is looking at what's working in the world. You know, e commerce. We don't sell things. Shawn & Lacey: We sell a service. But still, you know, people in e commerce, they really get social media, advertising, Legian, they get email, follow ups, they understand retention. So if you are looking at how can I improve that, maybe it would be worthwhile looking at things that they were doing. And that's what Black Diamond Club really, really is all about. It's a great place. Never will you be talked down to, never will you be looked down upon. But also, I think really important. It's a place where you can come and also say, hey, guys, I had my biggest month. I collected two hundred and fifty thousand dollars in revenue this month and everybody will celebrate you as well. That's part of that, too, is we don't know when you're saying, like, the mindset around money. Oftentimes we're afraid to tell people how well we're doing because we don't want to be shot down, especially by someone that we hold in high regard or that is close to us. So we've tried to create a community where we can foster that high energy and help service professionals to to go out and reach more people. Joe: Ok, so you have the specific and you have this chiropractic franchise and you're building this amazing business. When do you decide that? Wait a second. This is something that is goes well beyond chiropractic and chiropractic offices. You are building a model of success. So all of a sudden, one night you're sitting down at dinner and a glass of wine and you go, hey, wait a second. We're once again, we need to expand our mind and say, this is this is too narrow. Obviously, we're helping all of these chiropractors build successful businesses and being part of our franchise. But we can actually take this a step further. We can create a black diamond club that actually works with all forms of entrepreneurs. So is that sort of how this came about? Shawn & Lacey: Well, I wish it was that easy or simple, but I like the glass, I Joe: See how I put Shawn & Lacey: Use that Joe: I Shawn & Lacey: Now. Joe: Put Shawn & Lacey: Why Joe: All Shawn & Lacey: Didn't Joe: Those Shawn & Lacey: We Joe: Words Shawn & Lacey: Have wine? Joe: In? Shawn & Lacey: I think I think first and foremost, from very early on, like all of the business principles that Sean taught were not, you know, from the old ways of chiropractic thinking, it wasn't from our profession and from our industry. In fact, very early on in our relationship, when we were still struggling financially, he wanted to hire a business coach and he had been teaching out of Michael Sportsbook yourself solid book for many years to all of the chiropractic students in learning how to build community and really attract their ideal client. And so he came to me one time and again in my mentality, I was like, there's no way we're ever going to be able to afford that. We can't we can't handle that. And he said we'll figure it out. The money will come. And we figured it out. And Shawn was able to become a book yourself, solid certified coach. And that was kind of the first movement in going, man, this stuff that's outside of our profession, in our industry translates really well into what we do. But, hey, business concepts are business concepts and they actually translate into any profession. So we always had those thoughts. But really the story goes that there was another individual, another group in chiropractic that was very negative, that based on people that talked down to people that didn't support their individuals that were in the group. And one day Shawn was just like, we're just going to create the exact opposite of that, the exact opposite of that. And that's what we did. And that's how Black Diamond Club in a nutshell, got started. And we want it to be everything. That group was not so that people could have a place to go, where they could grow, reach more people, be supported and not be ashamed. Joe: That's great. When did you start, like nine o'clock? Shawn & Lacey: Twenty sixteen. Joe: Wow, so you're Shawn & Lacey: Hmm. Joe: Already busy and you just said, let's the heck with it, let's tax something else on the plate. Shawn & Lacey: It was a need and, you know, if you listen to the people, they'll tell you what they need Joe: Yeah. Shawn & Lacey: And if you have the skill set to fill that gap, then you should. And that's what we did. Joe: Perfect. How about tell us about the summercamp twenty twenty one that's coming up on the 13th and 14th of August in Carmel, Indiana. Shawn & Lacey: Well, this is edition number five of Summercamp, it was started by our good friend Tristan Qof. He had created this event separate from us that had nothing to do with us. And he wanted to create an event that brought together chiropractor's and expose them to entrepreneurs, which really fits our brand. But that was an idea that he had birthed. The very first edition was held in Las Vegas and the keynote speaker was Grant Kardon. And a Joe: Well. Shawn & Lacey: Lot of people were like, oh, wow, how did you get greencard on? The second edition had a stellar lineup. Brian Tracy was one of the keynotes, had multiple keynotes. Tom, Billu was there. I mean, it was it was an all star lineup. It was starting to grow. And Tristin at that point was a one man show. And so we saw his his his struggles in trying to run around and put on events of that caliber. And we were like, hey, Lacey really gets scale and process and organization and we could really help you. And so he was like, look, why don't you just acquire me? So we acquired the company and we kept Tristant on. And then we did audition number three in Miami with DJ Abraham. Roger Stone spoke Joe: Resum, Shawn & Lacey: At that one. Also, Roger Love, Joe: Yeah. Shawn & Lacey: Audition number four last year, right in the middle of the pandemic in person, we had Jordan Belfort and Eric Thomas headline. And then this year we're celebrating our fifth year. Carmel, Indiana's just north of Indianapolis, just just north of Indianapolis. We have David Meltzer. We have Patrick. But David, who's all over the news right now with this Trump and Obama debate, we have Steve Simms's speaking, Chris Winfield, Jen Gottlieb, John, ruling from Gift. This the super Joe: Well. Shawn & Lacey: Pac lineup. It is all about helping service providers. These are these are speakers that normally you would hear at an entrepreneurial Joe: Mm hmm. Shawn & Lacey: Conference. But it's it's helping expose service providers to these concepts and helping them understand how to apply them in their business so that they can reach even more people. Joe: That's incredible. I have no idea what the cost of this thing is, but just the fact that David Meltzer is there. Shawn & Lacey: I Joe: I Shawn & Lacey: Had. Joe: Had the opportunity to spend a full day with him in his office in California. Joellen and I went out and literally shadowed him from nine o'clock in the morning. And then later on, we had drinks that night and met his wife. And it was just the most incredible thing. And that the positivity that comes from him and Shawn & Lacey: Yes. Joe: It's just amazing. So that alone is I don't even know what what it cost, but that alone is worth the price of admission, just that alone. Shawn & Lacey: Well, I'm going to throw in there I don't I don't even have a link to this, but one of the things that we'll be putting out here in the back half of the year, so if people plug in with Laci and and social media, we are we are collaborating with David and we are putting on a two two day, three night mastermind on a private island in the Caribbean in December. So it'll be myself and Laci and David Meltzer trapped on a private island. So that's great. You'll have us locked there to be able to help you to ask any questions. I mean, probably Laci mostly just being having cocktails. I'm sure David will be happy for everybody's going to want so when he's there. But that's something we're super excited about, being able to collaborate with him. And he's just like you said, and one day imagine two days Joe: It's. Shawn & Lacey: And imagine, you know, your dinner is together. Yeah. You're doing everything together. So we're super excited about that. And we'll have information out about that very soon. Joe: That's cool, because we Joellen and I like to go away during the summer because we don't really have family here in Shawn & Lacey: Oh. Joe: Phoenix, Arizona, so, hey, Shawn & Lacey: Yeah. Joe: Maybe you'll get stuck with us for that trip. Shawn & Lacey: I would love Joe: All Shawn & Lacey: That Joe: Right, Shawn & Lacey: Would not Joe: Cool. Shawn & Lacey: Be a bad thing. Joe: No, not to be awesome. Yeah, I'm sorry. I actually missed you guys. You were here in Phoenix in March, right? Shawn & Lacey: Yep. Joe: You ran an event here. So you. Shawn & Lacey: That was our first time in Phoenix in a long time. Joe: Oh, Shawn & Lacey: Yeah, Joe: Yeah. Shawn & Lacey: We do we do three events a year. We do one on marketing, one on sales, and then one around money mindset. And we typically like to kind of move them throughout the country because we've got clients Joe: Sure. Shawn & Lacey: From coast to coast. So Phoenix, that's where we were doing our Money Mindset workshop. Joe: Now, let's Shawn & Lacey: And Joe: Call. Shawn & Lacey: We shout out to Phoenix, you guys really had it together. It wasn't super restrictive. We have been very pro keeping our events going during this time. And Phoenix was very cooperative. We had a really good time there. So Joe: Yeah, Shawn & Lacey: It really sounds like a great place to be. Joe: It is, but we they get in trouble because there they are a little overzealous when the data is said, take your mask off. And I went to the Shawn & Lacey: Well. Joe: Gym and I got a lifetime, literally. I walked in. Not one person that I'm Shawn & Lacey: Yes. Joe: Like, there's there's no on ramp, folks. What's going on? It was ridiculous. I was like, you're telling Shawn & Lacey: That's Joe: Me, Shawn & Lacey: Funny. Joe: Oh, is there anything else that I missed? What's the best place to get in touch with the both of you or the specific or Black Diamond Club? And again, I'll put it all in the show notes. But do either of you like people to reach out on Instagram, any of that stuff? What works for you? Shawn & Lacey: Social media is great, you can reach me and Sean Black Diamond Club dot com, that's my email. Yeah, basically we try to be here's one thing that I've learned is that as I've been around more successful people. You mentioned Joe: David Shawn & Lacey: David Meltzer. Joe: Is. Shawn & Lacey: I specifically asked him, I was like, you're giving your personal email out all the time, all over the place, national television. You don't care. How does that work? And I just found, like, super successful people are hyper responsive. That's why they're that's why they're successful. And so this is me getting over that. I'm giving my personal email shonen at Black Diamond Club dot com. Yeah. Hit me up. And if there's any way that I can provide value to your life, I will be more than happy to do that. I'm usually I usually like maybe once or twice a year, send out an email to just saying, you know, tell me what I can do for you if I can do it within reason and on this day I will comply. So likewise, if it's an within reason and I can get it done quickly, I can't take on a project, but if I can get it done quickly, make the ask, I'd be happy to help. And we're on all the social media platforms. Sean Delisi book. I bet you could guess my email address. COVID-19 Club dot com super easy. And if you want any more information, Black Diamond Club dot com is the best place to find about all the things we're doing. Joe: That's perfect. One question I didn't ask during the book conversation was I know authors when they write a book, they say it's a struggle like it's a hard thing to do. It's not as easy as people think. How how easy was it or hard with two of you writing the same book and and how did you figure out who's writing what? Or did you just sit down together? It's just something that came to my brain that I wanted to ask that question. Shawn & Lacey: I'm going to shameless plug, and if I can help you, although you're very well established, you don't need my help. Tucker Max from Scribe, Joe: Oh, yeah, I know, yeah. Shawn & Lacey: That's all. So that's how we do. The book is a chain of the chain of command on this was Abraham sat us down in his office and said, you need to write a book. And I was like, I was like, no, it sounds like a terrible idea. And he was like, well, there's a lot of ways to write a book. We were introduced to Tucker by Tristan Sharp, who I mentioned earlier. We hit it off. Tucker was like, let's just get this book done in the process with Scribe is painless. I mean, they really do have it down. People that read that book after knowing me, they say it's kind of you get to pick, but the book is written in my voice. And so people are like, yeah, I can hear you. It's we don't have an audio book. If we did, I would probably be the one that reads the book. But super simple. We just collaborate on our ideas. You meet with the scribe people, they get the thoughts out of your collector right out, Joe: Yeah. Shawn & Lacey: Put it on the paper and write it. I highly recommend if you have a book in, you use Scribe. Yeah, well worth the money because you'll just it just amplifies your voice again. Joe: Yeah, that's great. It's so funny, I know Tucker's program, and I actually I think I started doing it and I was like, do I really have a book? I mean, so who Shawn & Lacey: You Joe: Knows? Shawn & Lacey: Do you do an. Joe: Is there anything else that I missed that you wanted to speak about before I let you go? Shawn & Lacey: Not me, I think you did a great job, Harry. A lot Joe: All right, well, cool. Shawn & Lacey: A lot of real estate. Joe: I was it's you you are both very busy, so I was very nervous. I got so many things I want to ask and we'll probably have to do this again because there's there's Shawn & Lacey: Oh. Joe: There's more. But thank you. Thank you both so much. I really appreciate you being on the podcast. I want that event in August to have a bunch of my listeners hopefully show up. So thank you again. I really appreciate it. And I wish you both all the success in the world. Shawn & Lacey: Thank you. Thank you for having us. If your listeners show up, we promise that we will make them feel right at home. Joe: Perfect. Thank you so much.

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Decluttering Tips For Hoarders with Tracy McCubbin

Play Episode Listen Later Jul 29, 2021 66:42

Decluttering Tips For Hoarders with Tracy McCubbin was my guest recently on my podcast, "The Joe Costello Show". She is a decluttering expert and she shared how she got started, what her business does and some tidbits that can really help you get started. Tracy's company has so many service to help people declutter their home, office, home office, etc. She also has other services such as closet audits, garage organization, moving services, senior downsizing, estate decluttering. Please go to https://dclutterfly.com/ and check out how she might be able to help. Tracy has also written a book called "Making Space, Clutter Free: The Last Book on Decluttering You'll Ever Need" which you can buy at Amazon or support this cool book website called BookShop.org. Here's the link to the book: Making Space, Clutter Free: The Last Book on Decluttering You'll Ever Need Also check out OneKidOneWorld which Tracy plays an important role in as the Co-Executive Director Thanks for listening! Joe Tracy McCubbin CEO & Owner of dClutterfly Website: https://dClutterfly.com Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dclutterfly Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/tracy_mccubbin Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thisistracymccubbin Private FB Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2036212949941199 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tracy-mccubbin-566829b2/ One Kid One World: https://www.onekidoneworld.org/ Email: info@dClutterfly.com Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.libsyn.com Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to: https://joecostelloglobal.lybsyn.com Follow Joe: https://linktr.ee/joecostello Transcript Joe: Tracy, welcome. I'm glad to have you on the podcast. I've been waiting to have you because clutter is is just the worst thing in the world. So I'm excited to talk to you. So welcome to the show. Tracy: Thanks, Joe. I'm super excited to be here, and it's always interesting to meet people sort of who have different expertise and different focuses like everybody have in common everybody. Joe: Yup, Tracy: So Joe: Yup. Tracy: It it's just I love talking to different people about kind of how they can manage their clutter, get ahead of their clutter and live their best life. Joe: Well, I'm excited and I, I follow a pretty strict format in the sense that I really like to know the person and I think my audience likes to know the person. And I think that's how they connect with you. I just don't want the end of this podcast to come and say other this really great woman that was on who understands how to do clutter. I want to know how you got into this and more about you. So can you kind of give us the background leading up to when you started to clarify? Tracy: Yeah, it's a very interesting subject, I like to say that I'm one of those people who all I had a bunch of jobs that turned out to not be my passion, but everything I did along the way brought me here. So I was a personal assistant for a very long time to two different people. I was a bookkeeper for small businesses. I was an administrative assistant to lawyers. I had all these various I took care of my grandmother, helped her manage her finances. So I had all these various kind of office centric jobs. And then when I was working for one of the people I was a personal assistant for, he was a television director. So when he had downtime, friends of his or he for, say, the friends of his oh, my assistant, she can handle anything. So I started helping other people. Somebody's grandmother had passed away and they need to clean up the house. They had a big accounting mess and all of a sudden people started to tell other people and I would get phone calls. And at first I wasn't charging. And then I was charging a little bit. And a friend of mine said, I think you have a business. And I was like, no, I'm just helping people. This is. And he's like, no, that's what a business is. And so I I'm like, all right, let me just see. And I made a little website and I put the word out. And that's fourteen years later at eight employees later and thousands of jobs and everything I did in the past, from acting in commercials to doing bookkeeping to taking care of my grandmother, it all led me to creating this business. And then the big piece of the puzzle, which I didn't even realize when I first started the business and I had to have a client of mine point out I'm the child of a hoarder. Tracy: So my dad is an extreme hoarder. And I have lived my whole life watching him struggle with his relationship to his stuff. So very acutely aware of our relationship to stuff is emotional and but I'm not kidding. It was like ten years into my business when this client of mine, who is a psychiatrist was like, that's so interesting. Have you ever thought of the connection? I was like, what? No, what do you mean? And then you're like, oh. So watching what my father went through and still continues to go through gave me so much empathy to people's struggle and how for so many people there's all this shame around it. I'm messy and I'm disorganized. I'm a bad housekeeper. And my goal and what I realized through clients of my dad is that that's not the case, that there is this emotional attachment. And if you're not aware of that emotional attachment, you're going to keep repeating the same mistake. So it's getting to the root of why you're hanging on to all the stuff and changing your relationship so you can have the home you want to live. So I'm a I'm late to this business. I opened this business in my forties, so I'm also a really good poster child for like if you have something you want to do, don't get stuck in the age. Don't think like I and get this done. My success is all coming my fifty. So I'm um like if you have a passion follow. It doesn't matter where you are in your life. Joe: Yes, and that's what's great, because my audience, at least what I think is my audience is really entrepreneurs like that's most of what I like, because that's where I come from. My heart is in that. So I like that. You said all of what you just said. I encourage people out there that have an idea that having made the commitment to go forward with it. So that was awesome. And I read the part about I didn't know what family, what person it was in your family, but I read that you had a family member who was a hoarder. So I'm glad you brought that up. But I wanted to know, like, what your trajectory was when you started. Like, did you what Tracy: Oh, Joe: Did you want Tracy: This is Joe: To do? Like. Tracy: Oh, this is this is even better if you if this is your conversation, I call myself an accidental entrepreneur, right. That I, I just I had no idea what I was doing. I was like, oh, let me just start a business. That'll be fine. Oh, let me just charge X an hour. Like I just made up some number which was clearly too low. And then I think about a year into my business, I read a book called The MF. That Joe: Yeah, Tracy: Right. Am Joe: Oh, Tracy: I getting Joe: Yeah, Tracy: The name of that. Joe: Yeah, Tracy: Yeah. Joe: It's a great Tracy: And Joe: Book. Tracy: I and I did the math and I was like, wow, I'm working for four dollars an hour. When I when I realized how much time I was putting in and what I was charging and another like I like when I say I had no business, I'd always work for other people, I'd always put things together. But I didn't I didn't go in with this. I didn't have a business plan. And I learned so much along the way. And every misstep was a giant step forward. And the biggest change for me, too, was when somebody said to me, you know, you're not charging for your time, you're charging for your expertise. Joe: Mm hmm. Tracy: And that just switched anything because I had a lifetime of dealing with someone and their staffs. And that just turned the light bulb on like, oh, right. It doesn't matter that this business has only been open for a year. I have 40 some years of doing this. And when I thought that and then I started to read more and realize and I hired a business coach and I started to really shift things around, that's when the business took off. That's when I was like, oh, stepped into the role of being an entrepreneur. And then I started to hire employees. And then I became a boss. Right. Which is a whole other thing. Joe: Yes, Tracy: And how Joe: It Tracy: Do Joe: Is. Tracy: You take care? How do you take care of your employees and how do you serve your clients and how do you not work twenty four hours a day. And so I love being an entrepreneur, but it was it wasn't an easy journey. It's not like, oh, just open your own business. I would do it no other way. And Joe: Mm Tracy: I Joe: Hmm. Tracy: Had to stay really clear about because I fall a bit into the imposter syndrome, like who am I to open a business and who am I to do this? And if they want to know you've worked for work since I was 13. I've had job like I know how to do it. So I had to take all my past experiences and filter them in and realize that even though the path didn't look like a linear line, I didn't get an MBA, I didn't get venture capital. I didn't I have just as much experience, maybe more. So I always tell people, you know, in some ways you're not reinventing the wheel. A lot of people have done this. So gather information, listen to podcasts, read books. I'm a business coach if you need it. Like you can do it. If you have a great idea that know what it's done, you follow it through, follow it through. So Joe: So. Tracy: I feel I feel really I love it. I love running my own business. I love it. It's hard. Joe: Yes, Tracy: It's Joe: It is, Tracy: Hard, Joe: Yeah. Tracy: You know. And some days I really I, I, I just got a text from a client. We helped them with this fundraiser that they were doing and it was a very emotional cause. And my team went and we kind of helped them organize all their stuff for it. And it was just a very grateful text. And when I get those texts, it's like, oh yeah, this is why we do this. This Joe: Yeah. Tracy: Is why we do this. So, yeah, I have a very funny like I it was not a straight line, but all roads have led me here. Joe: So I'm going to just that's where you have to bear with me for a moment, because I want to know more about Tracy, so I want to Tracy: Ok. Joe: Know, like, where you and the kid like like what Tracy: Yeah, Joe: Did you do? Like Tracy: That's Joe: Like Tracy: The Joe: So Tracy: Idea. Joe: I want you to go back a little further. So, Tracy: Ok, Joe: Like, Tracy: Yes, Joe: Go back Tracy: Absolutely. Joe: As far as you want. But I just want to know I want I think it's important because where I am today, everything. And you are saying all the right things for all of the listeners that will listen to this is that everything that you've done in the past just adds to who you've become now? Right. And it'll continue that way. And so many people lose sight of that. And at one point I did I was like, oh, I wasted so much time. And then I look back and I go, wait, that helped. And that helped. And that helped. And I learned a lesson there. And so what did you like? What was what did you want to do? Tracy: Yeah, you know, it's funny, I I was a neat child, I wasn't crazy, crazy, crazy organized, but I had a pretty between my dad being a hoarder and my parents getting divorced. I had a pretty California in the 70s. Like I had a kind of chaotic childhood. There was everywhere. Parenting was being reinvented. School was being we lived in a van for a year, traveled through Joe: If. Tracy: Europe. So I definitely like to make order out of chaos. I definitely like to know, OK, this is my space and I can live in it this way. And I also grew up very close to both of my grandmothers and my grandfather, but they came from the Midwest and Fresno and we're farm farmers. They came from and one of my grandmothers was an immigrant from Scotland and they all lived through the Depression. So my generational experience, the sort of generational trauma of living through the Depression, living through World War Two, you saved every yogurt container. You saved Joe: Mm hmm. Tracy: Every rubberband, learning how my ground both my grandmothers were. You don't put it down, you put it away and you fix. And I learned how to sew and I learned how to change it. I can change the oil in my car and I can change a tire. And I had all these really practical things. And also for me, I think one of the big lessons that really served me in opening my own business when I started working, I started babysitting when I was 12, 13, and I started making my own money and I was like, oh, I can buy that blue, shiny satin hang tan jacket that I really want. No one can tell me, like I learned, especially as a young woman, that money equated freedom. Right. That this money that I made also could make mistakes with it, rack up some credit card debt, like I could do that. But if I work and money comes and I have power over this and my grandmother and I, we bought some stocks and she kind of helped me figure that out. And so it was a really that was one of those life lessons that they don't teach you in school, that this is making my own money. I want to take a trip, then I can do it. And that was and I'm a worker bee hardwired that way. I like to work. So I think it was I think a lot of my childhood was trying to make order out of chaos and having control and having power, you know, and I was very blessed. Like I got to I went to UC Santa Barbara. I went to a great college. I had a lot of opportunities. My family was very pro education. So I traveled the world. So again, it's all these things that at the time like, I don't know, I'm going to live in Italy for a year to study art. The smartest thing. Yeah, it turns out it was Joe: Oh, that's awesome. Tracy: You Joe: When Tracy: Know, Joe: Was Tracy: Turns Joe: That? Tracy: Out I did that my junior year of college, Joe: Wow, Tracy: So. Joe: That was that's awesome. And Tracy: Yeah. Joe: Was there Tracy: So. Joe: Were you was there something that you were wanting to become like? Did you aspire to be or Tracy: You know, Joe: Was? Tracy: Yeah, it was funny, I never I for a while, I thought I wanted to be an actress, and so I took acting classes and I did that. I had to moderate, moderate success, but I didn't like the business side of it. And then I was so for me, it was a lot of figuring out what I didn't want to do. Joe: Uh huh. Tracy: Like I was like, oh, you know, and because I'm a hard worker and I'm industrious, kind of whatever job I had before, like, we'll promote you to manager, we'll make it up. And it was a very much a series of like, oh, I don't want to do this. I don't want to spend the day doing this. And when this business started, it was the first thing that I was like, I want to do this every day, like the rhythm of it, the helping the clients, the feeling of satisfaction when it was done. It was the first I mean, I liked other things that I did, but Joe: Mm Tracy: It Joe: Hmm. Tracy: Wasn't I was like, oh, I want to do this all day, every day. Like, I you know, technically the joke is I would do it for free. Well, there was like a year I did do it for free. It's literally like that is a brutal I'll tell anybody, the entrepreneurs, people starting a business, track your hours, track what you're getting paid, do that math because it'll gut punch you and it'll make you rethink everything. Like Joe: Goup. Tracy: When you realize, oh, I'm working for four dollars an hour. No, no, no, no, no. That's an important lesson for everybody and it makes you really rethink things. So it really wasn't until this until this business started that I realized my purpose. Joe: Right, and if I remember reading correctly, it came out of you being this service assistant to this, right? And then. Tracy: Director Yahya. Joe: Yeah, and then everybody you were helping, everybody saw all the stuff you were doing and it just went from there and then you realized. Tracy: And I'd always been, you know, it always been of service and my grandmother was there, like my grandmother was the lady at the church who kind of did everybody's books and she was a secretary at the church. And we were forever if somebody was sick, I spent a lot of time with her, we would drive over to somebody's house and we'd take them to the post office. So for me, helping people in sort of an admin sense was just a being of service. That's just what we did. We were a nice person. You help your friends. So I never thought about monetizing it. I never thought that it was a service that people desperately needed desperately. I was like, Joe: Right. Tracy: Well, of course, you know how to move yourself. You just pack your boxes. Now, people don't know how to do that. So when I realized that there were so many people that either didn't have the time or the inclination and there was a way to offer the service, get paid, help them know that was the perfect marriage, that was like, oh, this is a something that's desperately needed. And I feel like for kind of where we are in the world, it's interesting. But I think as we get further away from making things ourselves, knowing how to sew, knowing how to cook, that there are more and more people that I mean, they can do things for themselves. They just it's I Joe: I know. Tracy: You know, it's just it's just really interesting. I'm a little worried and I have young nieces and nephews, and so I'm very worried about what they can do. And so I it's just it's interesting that this has become very desperately needed service. Joe: Yeah, OK, so the name of the business is dclutterfly, right, Tracy: Correct, yep, Joe: That Tracy: DClut Joe: It's Tracy: ter Joe: A Tracy: fly. Joe: Mouthful, the cutter Tracy: Oh, trust Joe: Fly. Tracy: Me. Oh, and trust me, here's another thing I'll say to aspiring entrepreneurs. When you name your business, say it out loud all day. So it would be easy to come off the time and then try and spell the website, because that's something else I didn't think about. So when I give people the email, they there's D.. C. There's no Joe: Yeah. Tracy: Easy people leave it up. So do a little bit of market research. Go. Joe: Yeah, Tracy: Can Joe: That Tracy: I, can Joe: It Tracy: I say this. Yeah. Joe: It's so funny, it's all those Tracy: Yeah. Joe: Little things you learn as you're doing it, you print your business cards and people, and especially you get older clients that want the help with some of these services that you have. And the prince too small and you're just like, oh, my God. Tracy: I went I went through that I rebranded the company about two, three years ago and the designers did a beautiful job and I was like, the font is too small and they're like white. And I'm like, oh, I'm like they're like we have like less tags, bigger font. Joe: Yes. Tracy: Like the bulk of my clients are over 50, like make it big. Joe: Right, right. That's awesome. Tracy: I, I just about a year ago I bought my first about a truck, a 17 foot truck because we're so busy and I got it wrapped and it's like my traveling billboard and I was like no bigger, bigger, Joe: Mm Tracy: Bigger Joe: Hmm. Tracy: Phone, no bigger. And the guy that the drug had the rapping place, like, are you sure? I'm like, bigger, bigger, Joe: That's Tracy: Bigger. Joe: Awesome. That's perfect. OK, so your your I know you have clients all over, but you're you're based out of California. Tracy: Yeah, and based in Los Angeles pre pandemic, we were I was in New York a lot traveling a lot post pandemic were starting to travel again. Joe: Mm hmm. Tracy: I'll go anywhere. But right now it's been the book is Los Angeles to New York. Joe: Ok, perfect. So I want to go through the services quick, because I want everyone Tracy: Yeah. Joe: To sort of understand. And so I want to start with the home, the home de cluttering and it also on on the website, his office as well. And that's that's an important piece for me. And I think the audience, because if there are entrepreneurs out there, like my desk was clean a couple of weeks ago and now I'm in the middle of doing a bunch of videos and I have research materials and now it's starting to become something that I can't look at. So. So Tracy: Yep. Joe: Let's start with that. The home deck fluttering, plus the office stuff. And and just a brief explanation of each so that at least we can get an idea Tracy: Yes, Joe: Of what that means. Tracy: That's great. Go home and office cluttering is if your space that you live in or work in is unmanageable. I always tell people the really good litmus test is if you can't tidy up a room and make it presentable where you have somebody else walk in in 20 minutes or less, you have too much stuff. So that services we come in, we help people sort through it. We help people figure out what they need to keep, what they need to let go of, and then creating systems for where it goes. So in an office, where do you keep your printer? Is it near the printer where you keep your paper? How much paper do you need to print out? Can we move you to digital? And if we move you to digital, how do you organize it? How do you find that is a really important thing in offices, in the whole home, but really in your offices, where do you put the things you need to keep so that you can access them when you need them, that you can go and buy? And don't tell me. I know there's people out there that are saying I know where everything is in my office. There's giant piles on their desk. I'm like, that doesn't count. You Joe: Right. Tracy: Can't point to a giant pile and say, oh, I know what's in there. First of all, you don't I'm talking about you won't be able to find it like, Joe: Right. Tracy: You know, creating filing systems or digital filing systems. And it's and again, the really underlying message is this isn't about creating a home that you can put on Instagram or Pinterest. You can if you want. It's about creating a space that works for you. And now if you are working from home pandemic, from home schooling, from home, all you got to make your space work. You just have to make your space work. They've done so many studies, they scientists about the effects of clutter and stress. It just this is all about that. It raises your cortisol so puts you in a fight or flight your brain. I'm sure you've probably talked about this on here, but decision fatigue, where you make so many decisions, your brain just shuts down. Joe: Mm hmm. Tracy: Will every piece of clutter in your house is a decision? Do I need it? Do I not need it? Where does it live? So the physical and mental effects of clutter are very real, very, very, very real. So my purpose isn't, again, to create I'm not saying be a minimalist. I'm not a minimalist. You know, it works for you. But is your home is your office working for you? Is it working for you? Chances are for a lot of people it's not. Joe: Right. Tracy: And that's OK. You may not we don't know what we don't know. Right. So if it's not working and if you have an issue with that or if if it's tough for you, you know, it it's like I always say, if you didn't know how to play the violin, you have beat yourself up like I wasn't born knowing how to play the violin. You might not have been born organized. You might have spatial issues. You might have added. There may be a bunch of things. So let's not beat yourself up for it. Let's educate and get it working for you. Joe: Yeah, you hit it on the head because cluttered just causes me angst, like I hate my garage, I hate walking in my garage, and so I understand it, Tracy: Can you even walk in your garage because only 20. Joe: But it's lucky I can. There's so many of our neighbors that have their cars in their driveway, in the hot sun here in Arizona because they have so much stuff in their garage. And that was like priority number one. My Tracy: Yeah. Joe: Car has to go in the garage. It's one hundred Tracy: Only, Joe: And thirteen outlets like. Tracy: Yeah, only twenty five percent of Americans can park their cars in their garage. Joe: Really? Tracy: Seventy five percent of Americans who have garages cannot park their cars Joe: That's Tracy: That. Joe: Amazing. Tracy: I know, I always say I always say we put our forty thousand fifty thousand dollar cars on the street where we fill our garage with trash. Joe: That's you know what, and you might I don't want to put you on the spot, but I can't imagine what the statistic is of people that have storage units and how many times they visit that unit a year. I just Tracy: It's Joe: I, I could Tracy: It's Joe: Never bring Tracy: A. Joe: Myself to have one. Tracy: This is where I get on my soapbox, this is the thing I get on my cell phone calls Joe: I Tracy: About Joe: Knew this was Tracy: And Joe: Going to kick Tracy: I Joe: Something Tracy: Yeah, Joe: Off here. Tracy: It's a billion dollar industry, a billion dollars. I have been in no exaggeration, hundreds of storage units, hundreds. I have had clients who because I make them do it, I've done the math of what they've spent on that storage unit. Twenty thousand thirty thousand a hundred thousand dollars. I have never once and I say it is no exaggeration, I have never once been in a storage unit or what's in there is worth more than what they paid to store it. It is a colossal waste of money. You will never go there if you have something in storage that you can't access. Why are you storing it? Joe: That's. Tracy: There is it is. I like till I'm blue in the face, I'm like, get rid of it, get rid of it, get rid. I have had clients crumble to their knees when they open it up and see what they've been saving. There's no there's like one or two slight somebody sometimes doing a remodel. There's a few Joe: Mm hmm. Tracy: Where I'm like, oh no, no, maybe. Joe: Yeah, Tracy: Let's Joe: It's. Tracy: See if we can find another way. It is, it is just take money and just burn it because Joe: Correct. Tracy: It is such a waste of money. Joe: Amen. I agree with Tracy: Yeah. Joe: You. I just it's so funny, and I just figured I'd throw that out because I, Tracy: Yeah, Joe: I knew that was going to trigger. Tracy: Yeah, I know, and it's people don't go there and they don't it's just really like if I can convince anything to anybody, just don't have it, don't Joe: Yeah, Tracy: Have it, don't Joe: Yeah. Tracy: Get it. Because once you get it, you're never going to empty. Joe: Ok, real quick on the on the topic of the home and office right now in your business, how much is home and how much is it? When I say office, I'm not talking about Home Office because I'm I would think because of covid home offices are on the rise because so many. Right. So Tracy: Yeah. Joe: But but do you actually go to commercial office spaces to help CEOs Tracy: I do, Joe: And. Tracy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean that in covid has just worn Joe: Hmm. Tracy: Down, Joe: Yep. Tracy: We haven't done any, but we have definitely we definitely will go in like work with big offices, like how do people use their space? How do people do that? I'm going to be really interesting to see if that. Comes back after covid, I Joe: Mm Tracy: Think Joe: Hmm. Tracy: We're going to get a lot of those calls, the way the business sort of shakes out now, I mean, right now we've just been trying to get everybody off. Does that how that was that was like how do you work from home? How do you go from home? That's been a big one, but it's probably it's probably a third of the business is senior downsizing. A third of the businesses are moving services and a third of the business is declaring Joe: Mm hmm. Tracy: Home declaring and then probably 20 percent that is office. I'm excited. I also think that when we go back, how offices work are going to change because everybody's like open floor plan. And now it's like, well, maybe not so much. So I'll be curious to see how that goes. I've also interestingly, too, I've had a couple calls lately about helping already offices, office companies that are moving small, 10 people, companies that are moving and setting up the office spaces before people even get in there. So that's a that's a thing that's starting to happen. And I think it's really how to keep people safe and covid and that kind of stuff. So that's that's always interesting to me. Joe: Perfect. OK, so let's go down the list here, so the next one that I have is closet audit. And Tracy: That's a good one. Joe: I Tracy: Yep. Joe: Know. Tracy: So, yeah, I have a couple of the people who work for me are like they can make it look like the Carrie Bradshaw perfect closet. So we come in, we help you figure out what you wear, what you don't wear. Get rid of the stuff that you don't wear. We donate everything. And then it's organizing like the like color coordinated matching hangers. Like it's really. And the thing first of all, it looks beautiful, but also your clothes are an armor that you go out into the world with. And if you have if you have a business where you have to meet with clients or you have to go in and pitch your services to another company, if you start your day off digging through the laundry basket to put something on, you're starting at a deficit. You're already starting stressed. I wear the same thing to work every day. I have 10 shirts from the same company, ten different colors. I have four pairs of jeans. I have my nice Nike shoes that are comfortable, but they're fashionable. I don't want to think about it. Joe: Yeah. Tracy: I want to get dressed. I wear a nice belt, I look presentable, but I look like I can roll my sleeves up. I figured out what works and I don't think about it. Joe: Mm Tracy: I Joe: Hmm. Tracy: Just don't think about it. And I start my day ready to go. It's not my morning isn't about like, oh, what am I going to wear? What am I. So people have to understand, if your closet is disorganized, it's not serving you right. You're already starting the day. Right? Where are my keys? I packed my lunch and what happens and what people don't understand is, OK, so you're taking your clothes out a laundry basket, you can't find your keys. You're running late. Oh, you didn't make yourself breakfast. So you're going to go through the drive thru. So you're going to eat Egg McMuffin and coffee like you've already set your day up so that you're not at your peak. Joe: He. Tracy: Right. You know, if you knew if your clothes were organized, you could get dressed, then you could make yourself that delicious smoothie that's healthy. You could start your day relaxed. And that's my whole I get out into the world ready to go, not frazzled. And especially if you've got kids like Model Man, those parents with the Zoom schooling like Joe: Oh, Tracy: To Joe: I know, Tracy: Have that, you Joe: Yeah. Tracy: Know, to have that extra to anywhere we can grab time. That's what the goal is. So if your closet's organized, you've just gained yourself fifteen minutes, right? Oh, those are my jeans are those are my shirts are great. Off Joe: Yeah, Tracy: We go. Joe: Yeah. Tracy: So that's a really closet. We love deposits. We love it. We love it. We love it. And we do the really big fancy lady those. But we love closet. Joe: Let me before we get off the closet audit subject are what you do with closets, do you ever get in a situation where you go and and they not only want you to organize, but they want you to actually help design a more efficient closet, and then you Tracy: Yeah, Joe: Have to bring in Tracy: Yeah. Joe: Like a company that does all of the shelving and Tracy: Yep, Joe: Ok. Tracy: Yep, it's it's great, we've I've really started in probably about in the last three or four years of service, I'll consult on construction. So clients that I've worked with for a long time are building new homes or remodeling their homes. So I'll come in in the design phase and meet with the architect and the contractor and say, OK, look, this is how many pairs of shoes they have. This is how long this is. So I love doing Joe: Oh, Tracy: That. Joe: Cool. Tracy: It's I love it. It's a constant fight because architects do not believe people have as much stuff as they have Joe: Mm hmm. Tracy: Contractors don't listen to forever, like the person that's like there's no broom closet, you know, and they're like, oh, you know, Joe: Yep, yep. Tracy: There's no broom closet. They're like, what do you need? A broom closet for it? Like, we need a broom closet. Joe: Right, Tracy: We need a real good bit. Joe: Right. Tracy: So that's been really fun. I have been pitching it. I'm working on my second book, but I have been pitching for a little while. I want to do a book, so I'll probably be down the road a bit. But I want to do a book between myself, an architect, an interior designer and a cabinet worker Joe: Mm hmm. Tracy: About how to remodel or build houses in the most efficient way. So that's Joe: Oh, Tracy: Super exciting. Joe: Yeah, Tracy: Yeah, it's super exciting. Joe: All right, cool. We've already touched upon this a little bit, but garage organizations, brutal. Tracy: Our favorite is Joe: Yeah. Tracy: Brutal, it's brutal. We we do it, we got we have packages one, two, three days a team goes in there. I'm at the point now where I don't do any more garages. Joe: Mm Tracy: I Joe: Hmm. Tracy: Never need to be in a sweaty garage Joe: Yeah, Tracy: Again. Joe: Yeah. Tracy: But my team's really good at it. It's a big and post covid this this one's been really people lots of people have been called in. They're like, we have so much toilet paper, we have so much canned goods. And that was one in terms of this is actually a great entrepreneurial point. This was one of the services that I realized. So one of the things I'm constantly balancing is how do I work on my business and in my business? Joe: Mm hmm. Tracy: In my business is a cult of personality. People want me. People will wait for me, people will pay for me. But I can only work so many hours so I couldn't grow the business if I'm doing it. So I had to find some of the services closets. I hired two people who are amazing at it. Garages are another way. It was a service that I could offer where people got the Tracy McCubbin experience, but I don't have to do it. So it Joe: So. Tracy: Was a way to go vertical. And that was a big learning like, oh right. This is something I can hand off, you know, get my team up to speed on it. And it's a good moneymaker for us and Joe: Yeah. Tracy: It's a really good moneymaker. So it's if you are starting a business and if you especially are sort of a consulting service, what are the services that somebody else can do? But your clients still feel like they're getting you. Joe: Yeah, man, you hit it on the head, it's so hard, they want they want you, you are the brand and it's such a hard thing to break away from and it's such a hard thing to hand over to trust other people. Tracy: Oh, yeah, Joe: Yeah, I get it. Tracy: It's Joe: I get it Tracy: You know, everybody Joe: Now. Tracy: Knows if, Joe: Yeah. Tracy: You know, you know, it's Joe: Yeah. Tracy: Really been in there and especially we were like, oh, wait, you're like it's a six week wait. And now, like, I don't care. And Joe: Yeah, Tracy: I was like, OK. Joe: Yeah, I know it's explain the moving services. Tracy: Yeah, that's been a big that's been our biggest thing during covid because we were essential workers, that we were able to do it and so I started when I started. This is another great entrepreneurial lesson. When I started, I just oversaw the move. So I would just take over, become the client, but the movers. And then we started offering de cluttering before people moved. So all the stuff you didn't want to take with you, let's get rid of it, not pack it up. Then we would unpack and organize into the new houses. So it was like, OK, we'd oversee. We get everything to the new house, we'd unpack and organize. And then I was like, wait, why? If we're doing the de cluttering and we're putting things in piles, why don't we just start doing the packing also? So it was another service that I could add that I didn't have to do. So we now did clutter pack, oversee the move and unpack into the new house. And we deal with very complicated situations like going to two houses or we do a lot after people, but people have passed away people's parents. So the grown kids have full time jobs. They can't be here for two weeks. So we'll empty the whole house, get everything shipped across the country. And so it's been a great. So that was another way to realize to go vertical. Right. Joe: Skep. Tracy: Here's another service I can offer. It doesn't take my time. It dovetails perfectly, we're declaring. So we might as well pack anyway. Know I bought a 17 foot truck. I hired a couple of expert packers and it's been a great part of the business. So I always invite people from my own experience to like, what's the what's the thing that you're outsourcing that could you move it in the house and make it part of your vertical? Joe: Yeah, yeah, it's such a great service because there's a huge gap there, there are great moving companies and they will provide Tracy: Oh. Joe: The services to pack stuff up, but it's just merely taking what's in a cabinet and putting it in a box and taping it up. There's no rhyme or reason. So when you get to the new property, you're like, where is this and where is it back? And you're moving Tracy: Yeah. Joe: A box from that landed in a bedroom that should have been in the kitchen and all. Tracy: And Joe: It's. Tracy: Look, I work with I work with moving companies all the time, I you know, they're amazing at what they do. Those teams work so hard. I have great relationship, about three or four moving local while I have about six and Joe: Mm Tracy: Everything. Joe: Hmm. Tracy: They're fantastic. But the story I always tell when people are like, well, why should I hire you as the movers? Joe: Mm hmm. Tracy: We're a little more expensive them and not much. Ten dollars an hour. And I tell the story of a client of mine who was a musician when on tour movers packed all our stuff up, put it in storage. We unpacked for her. And it was it was I unpacked a box and there were literally like a year old half-Eaten Sarcone and a Starbucks coffee. Joe: Oh. Tracy: And she was like she was like, oh, that's where that where the movers just pack everything Joe: Like, Tracy: In sight. Right? That's what they do there Joe: Yeah, Tracy: Based on time, their speed, Joe: Yeah. Tracy: They're doing it. So for us, we go in, we did clutter, we pack in an organized manner so that everything goes in room. So in a way, I tell people it feels like a more expensive service, but we actually save you on Joe: Mm Tracy: The other Joe: Hmm. Tracy: End Joe: Yeah. Tracy: Because it's super organized. We love it. It's one of my favorite favorite and especially the sounds so strange to say, but helping people after a family member has passed away Joe: Yeah. Tracy: Is it is one of my favorite services. It's so hard. It's so emotional. It's heartbreaking when the liquidation company comes in as your child is not worth saving your coffee cups, are they? They are. It's heart breaking. So to be able to honor the legacy of a family, deal with the, you know, not not pretty part. It's just it's one of my favorite things that we can do for people, Joe: Yeah, that's Tracy: Really, Joe: Really cool. Tracy: Is. Joe: So we can talk about that next sense, you kind of moved into that and then we'll get to the last one. So let's talk about the state. Kicklighter because Tracy: Yeah. Joe: That to me is that along with the other one, which is the senior downsizing, to me, those are both very, very sensitive type situations. Like you said, there's emotions that are involved in and these two things. So how do you deal with that? Tracy: You know, for me, it's I view it as such an important service. I know how difficult it is. I've had to do it for both. My grandparents like to I just know that it really providing a service that not many people do. And we my company is very special. There are a lot of organizing companies out there, but there's not I have been in this business longer than anybody. I, I know what's valuable. I know what's not valuable. I have the sensitivity. Everyone who has worked for me. We're all a little we're all a little damaged. We all have a little trauma in our childhood. We all have something to draw on. We've all been caregivers to family members. So we have so much respect. I just feel so honored that a family would trust us for this. And we just did a family. There were four children. Three of the children were on board. The parents lived into their 90s and it was taught it was time Joe: No. Tracy: For them to go. And there were three of the children were on the same page and one was an outlier and that that one person was making it very difficult for everybody else. And so to be able to step in and a little bit be the bad guy like these, these books aren't worth anything. Yes, they are. It is. It was like, OK, well, let's get the appraiser in. And then the appraisers, they're not worth anything. Joe: Right, Tracy: So being Joe: Right. Tracy: Able to sort of draw from my Rolodex and and my experience, like I've donated I've donated thousands of sets of China. It's not worth anything. I'm Joe: Yeah. Tracy: Sorry. I'm so sorry. It doesn't mean that your holidays when you were growing up weren't important. It doesn't mean that you have the memories that you have. And if you love that China and it brings back those memories, keep it. But if you are keeping it because you think it's the family fortune, then we're going to have a different conversation. Joe: Yeah. Tracy: So I just feel so honored to be a part of it. I've met such interesting people and when this steps into the senior downsizing, when we move seniors from lifelong homes into smaller places, a lot of what we're facing when we declare in these phases is our own mortality, right? Oh, right. We're going to die someday. You know, did my life matter if I don't have the staff? Did I make an impact? So it's very I just feel very, very, very lucky that I get to be a part of this process with people. I hear amazing stories. I met amazing people. We always approach it with love and laughter and humor and respect. And it's just a nobody. Nobody does this. Nobody does this. Joe: Yeah, Tracy: I Joe: Yeah, Tracy: Know Joe: It's Tracy: I Joe: A Tracy: Get Joe: Great Tracy: Phone calls Joe: Service, Tracy: All the time. Joe: Yeah, Tracy: Yeah, Joe: It's Tracy: It's Joe: So Tracy: It's. Joe: It's tricky, it's emotional and elderly people become a little bit they don't trust people. They don't know you're in their house Tracy: They Joe: Or. Tracy: Shouldn't, Joe: No. No. Right. Tracy: They Joe: Yeah, Tracy: Shouldn't, Joe: Right. And so Tracy: They shouldn't. Joe: That's a tricky balance. Tracy: We are one of our favorite things. We just did it last week. We've said we're now we've been working for so long, we're now helping parents of clients. Right. So kind of my mom died. I went to Nashville to help. I went to New York and doing that. But what we've been doing, a lot of which I love, is moving someone into an assisted living or community. So we like it. Like we feel like we're on a TV show. We're like, OK, we've got 12 hours until we get the apartment all set up so that when they're making the move, the drive from the old and they get to the new, their artwork is hung up. Joe: Oh, Tracy: The TV's Joe: That's cool, Tracy: Working, their bed is made Joe: Yeah, yeah. Tracy: So that they walk into this new experience with familiarity. And we love it. We're like running around sweating like they would do it, do Joe: Yeah, Tracy: It. But Joe: Yeah. Tracy: Then they walk in and they see their stuff and it's home. They're not stepping into boxes everywhere. Joe: Yeah. Tracy: So this is this is it's my favorite part of what we I mean, I love everything that we do, but this one's really that's really important. Joe: That's very cool, just the way you describe. That was awesome. A couple of questions out of the way of the business. And then I want to get into the book and then I want to get into Tracy: If. Joe: The chair, the organization, and we're running out of time because this is I love this, but Tracy: It's great, Joe: It's Tracy: It's great. Joe: So if somebody wants to work with your company and in a sense you're based in California, let's just say somebody here in Arizona, I wanted to hire you to come in and clean out my crotch. How does somebody work with you that is in like how do you work in other states with people? Tracy: Yeah, we do it know we pay our rates, they just cover travel costs so we can make it sometimes. Sometimes if I'm in other cities, like in New York, I have two women who I can subcontract to sometimes all subcontract. I'll go myself and maybe bring one of my people and then subcontract to try and use the local companies that do that. I have I'm getting a pretty good network. I mean, I'm very I have very high standards, Joe: Mm hmm. Tracy: So I'm pretty I need somebody to be tried and true. But I can I can make it work. But yeah, it's just it's the same rates. It's not more it's just the travel cost. So Joe: Perfect. Tracy: A lot of times when people they're realizing like, oh, it's actually, you know, the other thing I've started to do for clients to if they if they I got a client who had to go to Florida and they just didn't have a sister, their mom passed away. They didn't have the means to pay my travel costs. So I actually helped interview local people for him. So I'll do that for my clients. Like, let me let me make the first phone calls. Let me have the conversation. And I just because I'm I'm very mama bear about my client if I want Joe: The. Tracy: To and I want to just go to anybody. Joe: Perfect. All right. And you scared me for a moment because you almost sound like you're bleeding into my my last thing about the business, which is the virtual dcluttering. So how do you handle that? Tracy: Yeah, Joe: Is that like Tracy: You Joe: A Tracy: Know, Joe: Face time walking around with an iPad? Tracy: Yeah, Joe: Show me this Tracy: Yeah, Joe: Room. Tracy: Yeah, yeah, we do. So the virtual declaring, it's been a bit of an experiment to make it work. And what I've found is that we it's it's we have to set very specific goals. So oftentimes we break it up into half an hour sessions. One session is about right. Here's what you're going to get accomplished. Here's less paperwork. You have these four boxes of paperwork. What are you going to do with them? I don't as much sit there and sort of go through things with them. It's more about helping them come up with a work plan, what the traps are going to fall into, then a period of time, and then we come back and go over it and they ask me specific questions about what they got stuck at. So it's Joe: Got. Tracy: Really almost the virtual it almost becomes a little bit more time management focused help you come up with a work plan. How can you get it accomplished? I also have I have a private Facebook group called Concreter Clever with Tracy McCubbin. It's a free Facebook. I go live pretty much every Wednesday and people can that's a really great it's a very supportive community. Everybody's read my book. We're all so sometimes people would join their and the group will help them. So that's that's great. They're like, OK, it's Joe: Yeah. Tracy: A lot of accountability this weekend I'm going to tackle. And that's what the virtual turned out to be. Two is a lot of accountability. Joe: That's great. OK, cool. OK. The book came out in 2019 called "Making Space, Clutter Free" and you can get it on. I know you can get it on Amazon. I think I saw two other Tracy: Indie Joe: There was an Tracy: Bound. Joe: Indie Tracy: I think Joe: Band Tracy: It's indie band. Joe: Of. Tracy: Yeah, I send people to either Amazon, there's a really great website called Bookshop Dawg Joe: Ok. Tracy: And it connects all the independent booksellers. So you it's a clearinghouse. And so if you don't want to give the man who just went into space more of your money, bookshop dog is a great way. It's available on Kindle. It's available ebook. It's available as an audio book. I narrated Joe: Oh, great. Tracy: A lot of. Yeah, it was great. A lot of libraries have it. They did a really big push. So your local library has it and it's great. It's great. It's doing really well. It got to be an Amazon bestseller and it's an evergreen book. It is not going out of style, Joe: That's Tracy: So. Joe: Awesome, yeah. The reviews Tracy: Yeah, Joe: Are great. Tracy: Yeah. Joe: Yeah. Tracy: So making space clutter free. The nice thing about it is we really delve into the emotional part so very deep about the emotional part. And then there's an actual work plan, how you tackle the house room by room. So people are really it's just I'm very, very happy with that. And I'm in the process of writing the second book called Make Space for Happiness. And it's a it's about why we shop, why we overshot the holes in our lives that we're trying to fill by shopping. Joe: Mm Tracy: So Joe: Hmm, Tracy: It's a little Joe: That's called. Tracy: I love it. I love it. But it's going to be a little controversial. Joe: That's Tracy: I Joe: All right. Tracy: Feel like I feel like I feel like that man who just went into space is not going to like what I have to say. But, you know, Joe: Well, I like to think about Tracy: You. Joe: The closet that I saw one thing and one thing out, right? Tracy: Yeah, Joe: That's awesome. Tracy: It's very practical, it's very you know, there's a lot of oversimplified I think that part of the feedback I always get and I know from growing up with the parent that I did it. And also some people understand a lot of times reporting is generational. So Joe: He. Tracy: I my I had two other a great uncle. It's a genetic thing. It's a it's an anxiety disorder. I think it's a bit of an addiction. I think that people who hoard get a big dopamine hit when they find something. So there's just a lot of empathy. I'm not judging. I'm not shaming. I under I understand how hard it is. And Joe: Yet. Tracy: So people really respond to that. Joe: Yeah, OK, cool. One last question, I thought it was really cool you had the Clutter Block Quiz on your website and you talk about blocks, right? Clutter blocks. Tracy: Yep, Joe: Can you real Tracy: Yep, Joe: Quickly, can you just. Tracy: Sure, and this is the crux of the book. So basically a clutter block is an emotional story that we tell ourselves about why we can't let go of what we don't want or need. So it's so there are seven of them. And I witnessed this from working with clients for so long. I was like, this is that story again. This person is that same story. This is that. So it ranges everything from my stuff keeps me stuck in the past. Sentimental things that you can't let go of, the stuff I'm avoiding, which is your paperwork, which is me. That's my clutter block. I'm not worth my good stuff. So not using your nice things, saving Joe: Mm. Tracy: My fantasy stuff for my fantasy life. Oh, I'm going to become a rock climber. I'm going to knit, I'm going to buy all that stuff for this stuck with other people's stuff. And when in the book and in a Facebook group, I talk about it when you identify you're like, oh, this is a thing. The perfect example. Last Clutter Block No.7, the stuff I keep paying for, this is storage unit. You bought this stuff and now you're paying to store it. And when you see it that way, like, oh, I'm paying to store stuff I never use. Oh, it's like it's it's illuminated, you know, Joe: Yeah. Tracy: You're like, oh, this is why it's not I'm not a bad person. I'm not a bad person. This is just, you know, we're humans. We're meaning making machines. Right. We just rains on your wedding day that all that stuff. So we make all this meaning out of the stuff that's meaningless and it gets a hold on us. So the clutter blocks are really effective for people really, really affected, like, oh, this is real. This is you know, it's not just me. It's Joe: Yeah. Tracy: Not just me. Joe: Yeah. All right, awesome. Before we move off of your business to the organization you're part of, because I think it's really important to talk about real quick. You've made incredible headway in the press, like being on the shows that you're on. And for the entrepreneurs that are listening to this, you could have just been another de cluttering company in California, right? You've said it yourself, Tracy: Amy. Joe: But you obviously you have a unique approach with all the different services you're passionate about. It's very clear by talking with you and everyone will pick up on that. When they listen to this and when they watch the YouTube video, they're going to tell that, yeah, this is this woman is really has the integrity and really loves what she does and it speaks to her. How did you get the the press and all of the stuff that has catapulted you to be the expert in this field? I mean, it's it's amazing, Tracy: Yeah, Joe: The Tracy: Yeah, Joe: Shows Tracy: Yeah, Joe: You've been on and the podcast Tracy: It's Joe: And. Tracy: Yeah, it's great. So I think the thing the first thing that I got really clear about was a couple of things. One, people need content, TV shows need content. Morning news means content, podcasts meet. Everybody needs content. So even if you have a product or a service, you know, there's a mission statement behind it. There's a reason that you're doing it. So what's the what's the story that you can tell about why your service is going to help? Or how can you tell your mission statement and not even mention your product? If you can talk about the service or what you're offering, you know, how can you talk about it without even mentioning it, then that's the content and people need it. And I'll tell you, you say yes to everything. I have been I mean, my favorite story is like morning news show in Temecula, California, like sandwiched in between the October Fest dancers and the like kid who won the spelling bee, like I said, yes to everything. And I worked on my media training. I worked on the messaging. I really understood that you have to be able to communicate it. And so I just started saying yes. And then it I got a reputation for being good and delivering and I did. I have worked with when the book came out, I did work with a publicist. I found the best person who specializes in non-fiction authors. That's the other thing about PR. If you're going to pay for PR and you sometimes you have to and you're the two things you're paying for someone's Rolodex. So who can they call? Joe: Mm hmm. Tracy: Who do they have connections to? And also you need to find the person who understands what you do. Right? So let's say you have a company where you've invented a new kind of pool cover that will save children's lives, superimportant, Joe: Mm Tracy: Needed. Joe: Hmm. Tracy: Don't hire a publicist who works with beauty products. Joe: All right. Tracy: Right. Like really honed down on what you're offering and can that person help it? And sometimes you need to sometimes you need to pay a marketing person. Sometimes you need to pay a social media manager. We can't do it all. So it's really understanding, understanding how valuable those marketing and publicity dollars are. Right. Because they can get expensive Joe: Oh, Tracy: Fast. Joe: Yeah. Mm hmm. Tracy: You can turn around. And I mean, you people are out there and starting to look at that, you know, problems and say, oh, yeah, we have a ten thousand dollar per month retainer. You're like, oh, so what are their goals? What are their goals for you? How can you help? And I always say this. You can't for those kinds of positions. It's like if you have an agent, right? I have a literary agent. Help me with my book. She takes 10 percent of my money. She does ten percent of the work. Joe: Mm Tracy: I Joe: Hmm. Tracy: Still got to do the 90 percent. So you can't dump and run against. Oh, I have a publicist. I don't have to do it. Now you are working in conjunction with them. It's your product. No one's going to care more about your business than you are. So show up. Say yes to everything. You know, like be realistic. It's like I want to be on Good Morning America. OK, well, you start following the October 1st dancers. You just say yes, you say Joe: Yeah. Tracy: Because first of all, it gives you practice, Joe: At. Tracy: It gives you practice and you hone your message. And and this is where the Internet is fantastic. Reach out to podcasts, you know, get really clear about the content you have to offer. Just cold call people, cold email people. Here's what I want to say. Like people that you listen to where the message across, it's the biggest it's the least fun. The marketing and publicity is the least one part about running a business, I think. But the most important. Joe: Yeah, well, you've done great, it's amazing Tracy: No, Joe: And Tracy: Thank you. Joe: Yeah, it's absolutely awesome. Did I miss anything about the business that you would like to talk about before we move on to the organization? Tracy: The only thing I would say is that if you're out there and if you're struggling with your relationship to your staff, don't be afraid to find help locally. Joe: Love it. Tracy: There's lots of people who are opening this business. Reach out to me. I can give you some questions to ask. So don't be afraid to ask for help. Joe: Perfect. OK, one kid, one world. Tracy: Yeah. Joe: It's super cool. I went and I looked at the website, I watched the videos and can you explain what it does? You know, what what the the mission of it is? And then Tracy: Yeah, Joe: I Tracy: Yeah, Joe: Don't want to forget Tracy: So. Joe: After you do that. I want to understand when a volunteer goes, are they just volunteering their time and you get them there and you get them back or so let's start with Tracy: Sure, Joe: The organization Tracy: Yeah, yeah, Joe: First. Tracy: Yeah, so basically, quick story, my childhood friend of mine, our dads, went to law school together. He went to Darfor and he was in the volunteering in the refugee camps and he realized that the bulk of the people in the refugee camps were women and children and that they were setting up schools and setting up little shops, like trying to get normalise as much as possible and realizing, as we all know, that education is the key. So we ate on that trip. He met a Kenyan doctor, a nurse. They told him about this girl's school in Kenya that needed a science lab. The girls couldn't take their exams because they didn't have a science lab. So he said to me, it's twenty five thousand dollars. Want to help me raise that? Let's throw a party. You know, our our peers were all starting to make money and their careers were taking off. So we threw the party, raise the money. We're like, let's just go and see. Let's just go and see what this is. And we went and it was life changing. Joe: Mm Tracy: Here Joe: Hmm. Tracy: Were these girls. And in Kenya, most of them are orphans because HIV AIDS Joe: Mm hmm. Tracy: And the desire for education. And so there's a lot of organizations that are curriculum based and this and that. And what we were like were like they don't have desks to sit in. There are no there's no room. There's not. So we started focusing on capital improvements. We built buildings, we built dorms, we put desks, we put bookshelves, we pay teachers salaries. We put nurses in the school. We just do the things that they need to stay open. We never build a school from scratch ever. We know nothing about what the community needs. We get in partnership with a community where a school has already been established. We do not affect curriculum, not for us to say Joe: Mm hmm. Tracy: We try and work in schools that have at least a 50 percent girl population because girls education is much underfunded. A big part of what we do is we supplied feminine hygiene products to our girls school because that keeps girls out of school. So we're we work mostly in Kenya and then we have branched out to Central America of Salvador, Nicaragua, Guatemala. And, you know, it's an amazing it's amazing where we started the same year I started my business. So I did both of those. I think we're up to like twenty six schools we rebuilt. And part of our fundraising model is we do volunteer trips. So we go, for instance, to Central America. We fly for a long weekend. We rebuild a suite. We don't we do the big capital improvements before we get there. And then when we're there, we demolish bathrooms and paint murals and get very, very involved. And for us, what we found is that there's sort of two types of donors. There is the vicarious donors who your friend goes and see the work that the friends do and donate that way. And then there are the people who want to see where the money goes, really make a difference. So when you go on a trip with us, you you commit to raising a certain amount of money when you come back. And we always had our goals. We never operated a deficit. We don't ever take on projects that we can't finish. We're very lucky. Both Josh and I have other businesses that we work for free. We don't Joe: Mm Tracy: Take a Joe: Hmm. Tracy: Salary. So we're like we're at like ninety percent of every dollar we raise goes back. And not that, not that. I don't think that nonprofit workers should not be paid. They absolutely should be. But we choose for us. We choose not to. And it's been it's been great. It's been one of where a couple of years ago, our first round of girls started to go to college in nursing school and technical school. And it's it's really amazing. It's a really, really, really amazing covid has been really hard. We haven't been able to go. I think next spring will be our first trip if everything goes OK. Joe: Mm hmm. Tracy: But it's been a really amazing it's been an amazing thing to be a part of. It's been an amazing thing to be a part of. Joe: Yeah, it was really cool, I watched the video and I saw where there was a person taking Polaroids and then everyone and then the Polaroid was there was a square where the Polaroid would go on the piece of paper and each student had to say, I'm going to be a doctor Tracy: Yeah. Joe: There or I'm going to be a nurse, or it was a radical. Tracy: Well, one of the funny things I get I invented invented this exercise, I was realizing, talking to the girls in Kenya, that because they didn't have parents, so many of them, they didn't they never they didn't know how to make a business phone call. They didn't know how to apply for a job because it's like the teachers are teaching them. But there's not that. So I started to do this exercise where they would be the shop owner and I'd be like another volunteer. And I like I'd be the bad like I wouldn't say, you know, I'd say my name really quiet. I wouldn't shake a hand. And you just did these roleplaying exercises of how to apply for a job. When you realize, like, you have to learn that stuff, you don't know you don't know how to call someone and say, hey, here's my name or walk into a shop or say like, I'd like a job and walk in with confidence. And so now it's like day can't wait. Every time we go, we all line Joe: And Tracy: Up Joe: That's Tracy: And they Joe: Called. Tracy: All get to pretend. And, you know, it's such a it's such an amazing just right to have the self-confidence to get go in there and do that. And so it's very practical and we love it. We love Joe: That's Tracy: It. Joe: Awesome, Tracy: We love it. We can't wait to get back. So Joe: I'm Tracy: If anybody Joe: Sure. Tracy: Out there is listening and want to come on a trip with us, one kid, one world dog, tell me you heard me on here and would love to get. Joe: Awesome. OK, I've taken your time. I've gone over, I apologized, Tracy: It's Joe: But Tracy: All right, Joe. We're Joe: This Tracy: Having Joe: Is Tracy: A great conversation. Joe: This was awesome. So let's give everyone the and I'll put it in the show notes, but the website for your business did clarify. Tracy: Yep, yep, so the website is dClutterfly.com, so a d c l u t t e r f l y dot com. See, this is why you say it Joe: Yeah. Tracy: Out before you name your business. The clutter block places on there. You can sign up for my newsletter. It's a great place to find me. I'm very active on Instagram. So Tracy_McCubbin and then if you are looking for some extra love and support, the private Facebook group, which is called "Conquer Yo

Who is the Voice in Your Head?

Play Episode Listen Later Jul 16, 2021 41:19

Most of us have a voice in our heads constantly narrating our experiences. Have you ever noticed what yours is like? How it talks to you? How would you feel is someone else spoke to you the way that this voice speaks to you? Would you speak to someone else this way? Today we are going to explore how the voice in our head influences what we say, do and feel. We will learn how we can develop a new relationship with it. "You have this deep, critical voice in your head. It is like you are living with a horrible, micromanaging boss all the time. We know what that's like if we are actually sitting next to one of those people and they are constantly barraging us, and yet we just think it is normal when it is coming from ourselves." Most of us have a voice in our heads constantly narrating ourselves [Whispers: Why did you say that? She hates me. Get it together. Get it together.] Have you ever noticed what yours is like? How it talks to you? How would you feel if someone else spoke to you the way this voice speaks to you? Would you speak to someone else in this way? Today we are going to explore how the voice in our head influences what we say, do and feel and explore how to develop a new relationship with it. Joe, what is the voice in the head? Joe: The voice in the head. Let's make a distinction. There's a voice in your head, which is the thing you can hear talking to yourself. It´s kind of the editor that's constantly happening, that's judging your situation, wondering what people are thinking about you, telling you what to do, telling you how to do it. I would make a distinction here that there's the voice in your head that is repetitive, and the voice in your head that is unique or inspirational. Neurologically speaking, they say that we have about 50,000 thoughts a day that happen. That's the voice in your head. Most of those for most people, the voice is saying the same thing over and over again. You should lose weight. You should lose weight. Or why are you drinking so much coffee? Stop drinking so much coffee. It's a repetitive voice in the head. When I am speaking about the voice in the head in the context of working with people, I am talking about the repetitive, bossy, critical voice in the head. Brett: Let's take a moment to help tap into their voice in the head right now. If it is 50,000 thoughts a day, it must be accessible at any time.Joe: Yeah, that's great. So a wonderful way to do this is to just be silent for the next, say, 20 to 30 seconds and stop thinking. [silence] In that time period, a thought arose, and maybe the thought was how long will this silence last or this is stupid. What makes us do this? Or I hope I didn't forget the eggs in the oven, whatever. That's the voice in the head. That's what it is. It's the constant thinking that goes on, and for most people it is very auditory. It is very word focused. For some people, it is more somatic. It is more body focused. But the grand majority of people, literally it is like they can hear the voice. Brett: I felt both. As the silence went on, I started to feel a little bit of tension in my body, and then the thought that popped up was I wonder how much dead space we should have in a podcast before we lose people's attention. Joe: Perfect. Both are always happening. There's somatic. That's not exactly true. There's always the somatic experiencing that's occurring. You cannot stop that, and then oftentimes there are thoughts that go with it. The tricky part is that the more you become aware of the voice in your head, the more you become aware of what it is saying. Oftentimes, when people first get confronted with the idea, they might not think they have many thoughts in their head and the voice in the head isn't very active, and then the more they pay attention to it, the more they realize it is constantly humming along back there. Obviously, there are people who do a tremendous amount of meditation or different practices where the voice in the head is far more silent, particularly the reoccurring voice in the head is far more silent and quiet. That in itself is an interesting thing because the somatic experiencing hasn't stopped, and so to some degree it is harder to find the pain that's occurring. The voice makes it much easier to feel that pain or to see the dysfunction of the way the voice happens. It is harder to understand it or see it or work with it if it is just a somatic experience. What I notice is the more you become aware of it, the more sensitive you are to it. The more sensitive you are to it, the more you realize what it is saying and how it is saying it. A great example of that, I did a ton of meditation in my earlier years. A point came along where the voice in the head cut by like 75%. I felt like it was gone for a while as far as the recurring negative, looping thoughts. Over time, I have noticed oh no, there are still things there that took me a while to notice. Just the thing that's always saying have you done this, have you done this, have you done this. It's just a matter, like anything, it is subtle until you see it. The more sensitive you become to it, the more you become aware of how much it is affecting your day to day, minute to minute life. Brett: What makes it important or interesting to become aware of it? I imagine if I had a roommate in my head just constantly talking to me, ignorance would be bliss. What makes it worthwhile to start paying attention and noting what it is saying if what it is saying can be so self-critical and distracting?Joe: There are a couple of reasons. One is because it is the first step to a different relationship to it. In my first experience of really becoming aware of it, I was reading a psychology book on Gestalt. It was Fritz Perls, I believe, and he was talking about how there was an upper dog and an underdog in your internal dialogue. The upper dog was like the bully telling you what to do, criticizing you, and then the underdog was the one rebelling against that, which is a much more subtle, quiet voice that it often takes years for people to get in touch with and experience. Just being aware of it, just being aware. For me, in particular, it was the should thing. I think he called it out. When you tell yourself you should do something, that's the upper dog. Just by recognizing it and seeing it every time it came, it just started to become quieter and quieter. Just the recognition of the voice in the head can change the way the voice in the head dialogues with you until you resist it, until you are like oh man, I have got to change that voice in my head. Then the voice in the head is now telling you to change the voice in your head, and that resistance makes the voice in your head persist. But just the simple awareness of it, just like the gentle, there it is doing that thing again, can reduce it. So then the question of course is why would I want to reduce this voice in my head. There are a ton of reasons for that. A very active, negative voice in the head is in the DSM called dysthymia. The definition of low-level depression is this constant, negative self-talk. That' s one reason. Another reason is because life is just far more enjoyable and sweet when your consciousness isn't a horrible boss. On one level, you said if my roommate was like that, I would rather just not hear them. The truth is when you have this deep, critical voice in your head, it is like you are living with a horrible micromanaging boss all the time. We know what that's like if we are actually sitting next to one of those people and they are constantly barraging us, and yet we just think it is normal when it is coming from ourselves. Just the joy and bliss of life as that voice changes or as your relationship to it changes, it totally can transform how much joy and happiness and easy and clarity you can have. Brett: Somebody I was talking to recently about the voice in the head, they said their voice isn't a self-critical voice, but what they do is they rehearse conversations they could have had. It seems like that is a way of being self-critical. The fact that you would rehearse a conversation you have already had about how you could do it better comes from self criticism, and then self-criticism is shaping the thoughts of what you thought you should have said. What are some of the other ways that the voice can show up in people if somebody is listening to this and they are not connecting with this idea of their being a voice in their head that's critical of themselves or the upper dog, as you put it? Joe: Constantly telling you things to do, shoulding you, wondering about what other people think of you incessantly or even just more than once, rehearsing and trying to make sure you get perfect at something before you actually go and live it. All of those are great examples of how the voice in the head can work. There's a multitude of ways it can work, and it is quite cool in the way that it finds its new home when you have spotted one. Like I said before, you can be saying the should thing, I understand that. I don't want that, so I am just going to be aware of it. Then pretty soon the voice in the head becomes the aggressor to the voice in the head itself. It's amazing how it can just find it's new natural home. In Zen, they talk about trying to use the voice in the head to get rid of the voice in the head. I am paraphrasing here, but to use the voice in the head to get out of the voice in the head is like asking a thief to be the security of your house. It doesn't work. Brett: Yeah, the voice isn't you, and the voice speaking to the voice is also not you. All of it is just in the way of your impulse. What that kind of brings me to is one of the characteristics of the voice is that it seems to be slowing us down, either by pulling us out of the present into the past or the future, trying to solve some unsolvable puzzle, or the self-criticism in it can just inhibit us from taking steps that may be imperfect but are steps or speaking what's true for us in the moment without imposing a lot of restraints around what people might think or what might be wrong about it. Joe: Yeah, I mean just a great way to think about this is so the voice in your head has worried about how some future things are going to go, maybe a job interview or maybe a first date. If you think about all the worrying that you did and all the scenarios that it went through and all the things you thought you were going to say and all of the ways you were going to behave, how much of that was actually pertinent, how much of that was actually useful energy, how much of that actually helped you prepare, and how much of it just did nothing and was just a waste of time. How much of it actually hurt? I see oftentimes when people are rehearsing things over and over and over again, it builds up such an anxiety around the actuality of the thing happening that they are not there in present with what's occurring in front of them when the time to rehearse is over. Brett: My experience of that is it also sets up for major disappointment and a shame spiral after the conversation doesn't go anything according to your rehearsal. Joe: That's a characteristic of the voice in the head, actually, to create the reality it is trying to avoid. Give an example of a perfectionist, and having the voice in the head trying to convince you that you need to be perfect about something. That incessant nature makes it very hard to even do something really well. That's why you see so many artists get hooked on heroin or alcohol, anything that just silences the voice in their head so they can be in that flow state so they can create their best work. It's no different than doing a PowerPoint presentation or making a speech, or having a great first date. It's about being present in the moment, and being true to yourself in that moment. Brett: In an even more diffuse way, just sitting down and looking at a blank page or a blank canvas and feeling just that slight negative emotion of like uh, whatever my brushstroke is about to be is going to be wrong. Whether or not that's even a voice. I've always felt that present in anything that I am doing to some extent and most of the time just didn't notice it, and many times just didn't take action on things that I wanted to do or would have loved to have done but just didn't notice that I didn't do them because I avoided feeling that feeling. Then I avoided feeling that I had felt that feeling, and that's why I didn't do the thing I wanted and then justified it for some other reason. I just didn't have time. Joe: That's a great example. It could just be a feeling. Then if you stop and say hey, what's the message behind that feeling, then you will be more aware of the voice. Oftentimes for different people they will be more aware of the feeling or more aware of the voice, and they are often in concert. The voice can be really subtle, or the feeling can be seemingly very subtle, just like the voice can seemingly be very subtle. Brett: When you start noticing this voice and you start paying more attention and noting it, what are some tips for not getting into a resistance battle with it but also not buying into everything it says, which is I guess is what we do by default when we are not noticing there's a voice_ Joe: That's the thing. The thing about having no awareness of the voice and it is happening. Even in this moment, I have awareness of the voice happening. In this moment, I don't. When we are not noticing it is happening, it is far more likely to control what we are doing. That's a really good point you just made. There are so many ways. There is a plethora of ways of working with the voice in your head. One whole category of ways to work with the voice in your head is just to ask how you relate to it. Voice in the head says you should have done better in that project, so some ways to relate to it would be okay, fine and then a subtle fuck you in response to it. Another way to relate to it is I see that you really care that I do a good job and I would love to ask you to use better management techniques with me. Another way to deal with it is to practice silence. Another way to deal with it is to love it. Another way to deal with it is to tickle it. Another way to deal with is it to really get in a massive fight with it and then see what happens when you are exhausted from that fight. The main thing here that I really recommend is to play and to experiment. Oftentimes the underlying assumption is there is this voice. A, it is never going to change, and B, there is nothing I can do about it. C, it will always be there. What if it is like I am going to do a series of experiments with the voice in my head? I am going to play with it in different ways. I am going to laugh at it hysterically one day, and I am going to just notice it another day. I am going to love it the third day. There is so much flexibility in it, but there is something in our system that is so scared of having that voice in the head go away or to change that it convinces us that we have no flexibility or no options around the voice in the head. Brett: When I have heard other people describe this in other books or other work, and there is even a little bit of it in this conversation, there is an assumption that the voice itself is not valuable. It would be better if we didn't have it. Here's a bunch of strategies to get rid of it. But I am curious what value there is in that voice because often the self-criticism that I experience of how I could have done something better is real. It is just that I feel ashamed that I didn't do it that way the first time, but I actually could have done better. Maybe the voice has something valuable to say. Joe: There is a way of hearing the voice in the head and hearing the intention behind what it is saying, and that's almost always valuable. If you assume for a minute that the voice in the head loves you and it just really has a whole bunch of crappy strategies to love you but it really loves you, then there is a way of listening to everything the voice in the head says has a deep care. It is just not doing it really well. If I told you you are messing up this podcast, hey, you are messing up this podcast, hey, you are messing up this podcast, look. You are still being silent. You are messing up this podcast. Why aren't you saying something, Brett? You are messing up this podcast. That's not going to make a great podcast. But the deep care behind that is it really wants you to be successful and so getting into a war with the voice in the head is you can't ever win that. The question is what relationship you want with it. Another cool thing to think about is oftentimes the voice in the head is talking to itself more than it is talking to you. I am going to let that one sit for a second. It's almost projecting on to you. When the voice in the head is saying you are messing up this podcast, you are messing up this podcast, is it you or the voice in the head that's messing up the podcast? Brett: There's something interesting in that where the voice in our heads often seems to map onto an actual person in our history or some blur of many people in our history that were caretakers or parents or teachers. A lot of the things that I say to myself in my head are things somebody else might have said to me in the past, and so I've just internally learned to say it to myself first before somebody else does it. Joe: That's part of the care it has. It is trying to keep you out of trouble. It is trying to keep you from not being insulted, not being chastised, not having to feel the way it felt when you were three years old and being chastised. It often mimics very important figures in our life or it is reacting to very important events in our life. That's definitely how it goes, which is interesting because oftentimes if we had, let's say, a really critical mom and the mom just really criticizes us, at some point you are like you are full of it. You don't know what you are talking about. But you don't question your head that way. If your mom is constantly like you should shave more, you should shave more, you should shave me, you are like you are the wrong generation. You don't know. But if the voice in your head says you should shave more, you should shave more, you should shave me, you are far more likely to buy into it. But you didn't even choose to program it. You didn't even choose what reality it agrees with. That was chosen for you, and yet humans constantly believe what's going on with the voice in the head, which is another way to relate to it. To actually see through the false logic of the voice in the head. The voice in the head is always contradicting itself. You were too cocky there. You were too humble there. You spoke too much. You didn't listen enough. You listened too much. You didn't speak enough. If you really start looking at how the voice in the head operates, it doesn't give you actually a place to succeed often. There's no way out. There's a problem with everything, and yet we still buy into it. To really look and find out that there's a little bit of untruth in everything the voice in the head says, everything the voice in the head says, and to find that, it gives you a lot of freedom and perspective from the voice in the head itself, the recurring negative voice in the head. Brett: What about the truth in it? What about the times where if I did say the thing I thought to saying, then I might have lost a client or a partner or angered somebody or gotten judged? How much of it is untrue? How much of it is true? Joe: This is an interesting question, right? So let's say you have done something that insulted a client, and let's say the best thing is to say hey, I am really sorry about that. I did that. It's not what I wanted to do. It's not how I want it to be with you, and I apologize. Then that thing you did wrong can build trust, and can actually make your relationship deeper. If you are in your head saying, wow, you screwed up with a client, and that happens once. It's not a reoccurring negative thing, and you immediately take action on it. Then whatever is happening is an effective, efficient cycle, but if you are saying it multiple times and doing nothing about it, or you are saying it 20 times and then doing something about it, that is not an efficient cycle. That's just self-abuse. There's is no need for that. It doesn't make you happier. It doesn't improve the relationship. It doesn't make them happier with you. It doesn't build trust. It doesn't add anything there. The important thing is it is reoccurring, and it is negative self-talk. Brett: Something I have noticed is when it is reoccurring, there is often some kind of double bind. There is like I really screwed that up. What I need to say is this, but I already said the other thing and I cannot go back on my word. Now there's sort of a fight between the different versions of the voice. Joe: Yeah, exactly. How efficient is that? How is that helpful? Exactly. And there is a wisdom to it, and it is like what is it that you want. I want a better relationship with him, and I don't want to look like I am inconsistent. I want to be respected by this person. If you get in touch with that and you just name that, put it in a VIEW frame of mind, it is amazing to say wow, I noticed that I was being inconsistent here. It´s now how I want to be you. I always noticed I am having a hard time saying that I was inconsistent because I am scared you are going to look at me this way or this way. It is more important for me to be in my integrity than to try to look good in front of you. I apologize, and how can we proceed to build trust from here. When the voice in the head is abusing like that, what's occurring is you are creating fear in your system. It is creating an anxiety, and then that anxiety makes you think in a binary way, either apologize or don't apologize. It doesn't give you the whole, vast array of opportunities in front of you at any moment. Also, that anxiety puts it so that you have like a false end. The only moment you can see is that moment of apologizing or not apologizing. You are not seeing the whole relationship and how it can get better over time. That abuse, that self-abuse, turns into anxiety, and the anxiety prevents us from learning. The anxiety limits our options, the options we can conceive of. The anxiety stops us from seeing a very particular moment. That's another reason why an abusive voice in the head is not effective. Brett: That thing you just said, that scenario where you were just speaking to the client was beautiful and I could imagine being. This has happened before where I am like what would Joe say. I am like I can't come up with what Joe would say, and I am like oh. What would I say if I was speaking so clearly from my truth that I don't feel like I have access to because a barrage of all these different voices. Then nothing gets said. The thing you said to me the other day, which was like life is really great once you realize you are already wrong. Joe: Yeah, there's another thing. What I did when I said what is it that I really want, and then I spoke the want. What you are doing is some version of what's the right thing to say whether it is through the projection of me or being completely high integrity. Doing the right thing, trying to make it right, is part of the anxiety. Brett: That is the voice. That's what the voice is trying to do. It is trying to make you right. A fear of being wrong. Joe: And that's how the voice gets more and more subtle. It sounds like a great thing. What would my highest integrity self say? That sounds like a great thing, but it is still trying to get it right. That's why I said to you that life is great when you know you are wrong because then you don't have to try to be right. Then you are just operating from that place naturally, that place of integrity naturally. I find the much neater trick is just to say what do I want, and then speak into that want, which is far more vulnerable than trying to be right. Brett: Absolutely. Being right is trying to say or do the thing that is perceived by both the voice in your head and others as everybody agrees that it is right, which is an impossible task. Joe: Totally impossible. Brett: What you want is something that can flow and change, and it can be true in the moment and you get what you want or not what you want and then learn more. Joe: That's right. Also, there is this total freedom in identity. If you aren't worried about being right, then you don't need everyone to think you are right and you don't need to be right. There's a huge freedom in that. There's this amazing freedom in it. What's cool is that if you are there and every time you worry about being right or every time you are wrong and somebody is chastising you for being wrong, and you let that emotion move through, it disintegrates more and more of what some traditions would call the ego, but I would call just limited perspectives. It just starts to disintegrate your limiting perspective, and it allows your identity to be an internal experience of identity to be far more expansive and to need a lot less protection. [BELL]Okay, so this is the time in our podcast when we do something just a little bit different. We take a break from the intellect and incorporate our bodies and emotions into the conversation. We do this because it helps us integrate the information better, and usually it is a bunch of fun. We crowdsource these exercises from our community, so if you have a good one, please share it with us. When doing the exercise, take it as a treat and as an experiment. Just do the activity and see what happens. As always, enjoy yourself. [BELL] Woman's voice: Hi everyone. This is Tara. Take a big inhale. You are going to keep your eyes open for this one. Our attention is going to be on our eyes this time. On your next inhale, you can use the inhale to sort of scan if you have any tension around your eyes. You can use the exhale to release any tension around your eyes. See how much you can let your eyes just rest in their sockets. Many of us carry a lot of tension around our eyes. You can use your breath to continue letting your eyes relax. You are going to let your vision go soft so you are not going to focus on any one thing in front of you, just see how much you can let your vision go soft. Everything may go a little fuzzy. That's okay. Take another inhale. I am going to take it one step further. With your eyes deeply resting in their sockets, see how much they can just receive the visual field in front of them. The visual field comes to them and all they have to do is they get to receive the visual field. Just notice how you feel different at the end of this than when you started. [BELL]Joe: Welcome back. I hope you enjoyed the exercise as much as we did when we found it. Before we go back into the episode, I wanted to thank all of you who have been sharing the podcast and signing up for the VIEW course. The interest and support you guys have shown has been both overwhelming and humbling. It is a pleasure to know that we have something to offer that has been so helpful to you. All right, now let's get back into the conversation. Brett: I can observe that any of my internal thoughts are actually trying to avoid feeling something. The thought might be self-criticism, which is trying to gain control over myself to avoid feeling whatever I felt by not getting it right in whatever sense. But also rehearsing a conversation or just overthinking about something a project that I want to do, if I find myself in a circle or a cycle on it, it is often that I am just trying to collapse the discomfort of the unknown into some framework of known. If I am trying to do that, to some extent that's impossible. It will just be an unsolvable possible. I will just keep doing it. When if I just let myself feel the powerlessness of the unknown, then all of a sudden those thoughts go away and I am actually freed up to take action. Joe: What's cool about what you just said is that's a fractal or a micro version of a major thing that happens, whether it be the fear of death or a fear of taking a risk. To be okay with that feeling of unknown, to be okay with I don't know what's going to happen next, which is true. We think we know what's going to happen next. We get taught over and over again. We don't. We create our world so that we think it is predictable, and then something very unpredictable happens. Brett: Everyone has a plan until you get punched in the face. Joe: I haven't heard that one. Brett: I think it was Muhammad Ali or somebody. Don't quote me on that. Joe: There's another one. I think it was John Lennon, which is plans are what you do while life is happening. That generally is to be in love with the feeling of confusion and mystery and unknown, and like all emotions, it seems like if we do that, then we don't make plans or if we do that, we won't be prepared. If that's happening, then the voice in the head has convinced you of that through some wonky logic. What actually happens when we get good with that is that plans happen far more naturally, organically. They flow far easier. Brett: This brings up something else, another way that this has shown up in my life as stopping me from moving forward. If I get to the point where I am rehearsing a possible conversation, and then I feel like I have actually fully rehearsed it and then it was perfect, then all of a sudden it becomes completely uninteresting to have that conversation. A, I don't want to break its perfect image in my mind, and B, it becomes boring because there is no unknown in it. C, sometimes I will actually trick myself into thinking I actually had the conversation. It could be disastrous. Joe: Yeah. Brett: I can't count how many times I've been like wait a minute, didn't we talk about this. No, we didn't talk about this. Oh no. Joe: Those are all the more subtle ways the voice in the head operates. You just kind of described maybe the voice in the head doesn't want to feel or the system doesn't want to feel rejection, and so the voice in the head starts with, let's rehearse so that you don't experience the rejection. Then the voice is like this is boring, and then the voice is like you probably had the conversation. That's how the whole thing works. There is always a way for it to insinuate itself, and the more you become aware of it, like I say, it is subtle until you see it. The more you see it, the more depth there is available. All that is needed is to relate to it differently, and to love it and to be aware of it and not have a fight with it. Then you can moments that happen in your life that feel like big moments. Sometimes and sometimes they don't. All of a sudden, you realize the voice in my head is so much quieter. There is so much less of it. Brett: What happens when you get to that point? What did it feel like when you had that 75% reduction of the voice in your head? Joe: It's different from different people. For some people, it is hardly noticeable. It is such a slow progression. What I notice is people that were like really deeply depressed and then that kicks in, and then it is just like this life changing, holy crap what just happened. Some people resist it. There is this whole thing called depersonalization disorder. The Zen call it Zen sickness It can happen, and people are like wait a second, where am I. This isn't good. I need that back. You can have all sorts of reactions to it. When it happens and you are aware of it, and you are not fighting with it, it is incredibly joyful. Your car has just become 75% more efficient. Your energy is far more aligned with the way you want to be going, and not second guessing yourself. It is more enjoyable, and you are more in the present, all that stuff. Again, to have a goal to get rid of the voice in your head is to not love the voice in your head, and therefore, it is a very slow process. It is far better to just love the voice in your head as it is, and not try to get rid of it and not reject it. Brett: It almost sounds like the framing of getting rid of the voice in the head is creating separation from it, but what we are actually going for is developing such a relationship with it that it is communicating with us so cleanly that it is just part of us, instead of compressing itself down into words and then hitting us in our logic battlefield. Joe: Yeah, it is an interesting question. Eventually, that question comes up as you are talking about what is the voice in the head and what's you. What's the difference between them? I think that's a great question to be sitting with but not to be answering. To be in that question, what's the different between me and the voice in my head actually? That in itself can change your relationship with the voice in your head. Brett: With that to sit with, what's another practice or maybe a homework assignment to develop this relationship further with our voice? Joe: There's an infinite amount. They work differently for different people at different stages. When I see somebody, I can point more directly to what might be useful for them. Generally, there are two that come to mind. One is just tell yourself that you love yourself, maybe in a mirror, in a camera, and then listen to the response to you loving yourself, all the ways it makes you uncomfortable, all the things you say that you are not loveable for. That's all the voice in your head. if you want to excavate it, that's a great way to excavate it. Another one, which is a more subtle trick is just to ask the question what's looking out behind my eyes right now. You'll notice that that often quiets the mind. It also kind of puts you in where your identity has moved from the voice in your head to awareness. Are you voice the in your head that's constantly talking or are you the awareness of the voice in the head talking? It asks that question, and you can do it at any time. It is a great practice in the fact you can be in a meeting, you can be in a fight, you can be going to the bathroom and you can say what's looking out behind my eyes. There's a ton of versions of that question. The most common one is who am I or what am I. That's not a question to be answered. That's a question to be in wonder. It's to be in wonder in that question. But there are a ton of little hack questions like that that are available, but I would say start with one of those. Brett: What about journaling? Writing down the voice in your head. Joe: I don't have any problem. It is a great thing if you want to write what the voice in the head is saying to you. Great. Bring it into awareness. Even better, once you have done it, be an argumentative lawyer to it. Not an adversary, but an argumentative lawyer and find out what's a little untrue in each of the statements. Someone says I should lose weight. You should lose weight. According to who? What do you mean by should? Shouldn't you be the weight you are because the definition of should is what is, right? I have to lose weight because if not, I'll die early. What makes dying early bad? Who is to say that the best thing isn't for me to die early? I know that's crazy, but look for anyway in which the logic might be. Also, I should lose weight. I've been saying it for a decade. It doesn't work, so what makes me keep on saying I should lose weight. Maybe I should say I want to lose weight. What's the response to I should lose weight. Most people's response is rebellion. They don't do it. There's all sorts of ways to just start looking into and analyzing and bringing a fresh perspective into the voice in your head. Brett: It seems like the example you just gave, somebody asking those questions would get themselves more in touch what they are actually afraid of underneath the judgement the voice had. Joe: You can bring VIEW from the first podcast and from the course. You can bring that same methodology and point it towards the voice in your head. Being vulnerable with it. Ow, it really hurts when you tell me I should lose weight. Being impartial with it, I am not going to try to get rid of you. What´s going on? What do you really have to say? Being empathetic with it, how scared is the voice in the head to be shouting at you like this? What is it so afraid of? To feel that, to bring wonder to it. You can bring all of that VIEW to your voice in your head, and you can dialogue with it in a journal. It is a great practice. There´s really infinite ways to deal with it, to play with it, to have fun with it, and I just encourage people to experiment, play. Brett: It seems like a great internal playground for VIEW, and then you might find that the same kind of VIEW conversations you start to have with the voice in your head are going to probably be somewhat similar to the conversations you might have with your first VIEW conversations with your family or your parents or your family of origin where many of the voices come from. Joe: It will also affect all of your relationships. If you see through your own shoulds, and somebody says I really think I should, you see through their should, whereas if you believe your should, then you believe their should. If you believe your sense of rigid morality, then that is inhumane, then you will believe their sense of rigid morality that is not humane. When you see through your own voice in your head, you area bastion of freedom for people because when they are talking to you, you don't buy into their limiting perspectives. Brett: To wrap this up, can you ask a couple questions for our listeners to ponder, to integrate this conversation. Joe: How do you want to relate to the voice in your head? What's the most fun experience you can think to do around the voice in your head? What would it take for you to enjoy the voice in your head just as it is without want it to change? Brett: Perfect. Thank you, Joe. I really loved this conversation. Joe: I really liked it. It felt really alive. Thanks for listening to the Life in View podcast. If you enjoyed what you heard today, please subscribe. We would love your feedback, so feel free to send us questions and comments. To reach us, join our newsletter, learn more about VIEW or to take a course, visit view.life

Josh Carey - Co-founder of PodMAX.co

Play Episode Listen Later Jul 7, 2021 52:32

My conversation today is with Josh Carey, co-founder of PodMAX.co, an event that happens about every 6 weeks where business people and/or entrepreneurs are matched up with podcast hosts where they do 3 interviews in one day while also attending an event where there is networking, education and keynote speakers. Josh explains in this interview how this event that they hold quite frequently, is like speed dating for podcast guests and hosts alike. It's an efficient way for hosts to get 3 interviews in the can in one day and for business people and/or enterpreneurs,to get out there and promote themselves, their businesses and tell their story 3 times in one day on 3 different podcasts. This is an interesting interview with Josh as he shares his own journey to exposing himself and his talents and now helping others to do the same. As always, thanks for listening! Joe Get 30% off at The Healthy Place by using code "costello" Josh Carey Co-founder - PodMAX.co Website: https://podmax.co Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/onairbrands/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/onairbrandsLIVE/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/onairbrands/ Email: josh@podmax.co Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.libsyn.com Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to: https://joecostelloglobal.lybsyn.com Follow Joe: https://linktr.ee/joecostello Transcript Joe: Hey, Josh, welcome to the show. I'm very excited to have you. Josh: Likewise, Joe. Pleasure to be here. Thanks. Joe: Yeah, so this obviously as a podcast or this hits home for me, having someone unlike you that has this this business, if you will, called Pod Max. Right. I guess it's it's also an event. Right. So I need you're going to help me understand Josh: Yeah, Joe: It. Josh: I shall. Joe: I've watched a bunch of different videos and I watched the testimonial video, but I still want clarification. I think you hit it on the head when you said it's like speed dating for podcasters. And that was Josh: Hmm. Joe: That totally was a very clear thing for me. At least brought me to a point where I said, oh, this is really sort of different, but this is what I do with all my guests. So you'll have to you'll have to suffer through this part. Josh: I shall suffer. Joe: We because my audience is mainly entrepreneurs and it's it's me trying to help educate Josh: Mm hmm. Joe: Them as much as possible. I always like them to know the back story of my guests. I want to know Josh: Hmm. Joe: Where you came from, where you came from as far back as you want to go, because it doesn't Josh: Mm Joe: It Josh: Hmm. Joe: Doesn't matter to me. It's exciting to figure out the how you develop to who you are today and how you are doing what you're doing today and what was all in between to make this happen. And then from there, we'll get into the depths of tiebacks. Josh: I love it. I shall take you down that journey, then Joe: Perfect. Josh: We'll start we'll start with Current Day. Today, I'm known as the Hidden Entrepreneur, and that's because I spent 40 plus years of my life hiding. I literally showed up in every situation, hiding all of my true talent and ability. Everything that I was really capable of doing remained hidden because I was so desperate to seek the approval of others. Now, what really sucked about this is behind closed doors. I knew darn well what I was capable of doing. So this created a lot of anger, frustration, resentment, jealousy, all that stuff. And the bigger thing is that not only did I want to seek your approval, I was scared so much by the fact that if I were to come forward with something quite good, right. Impressive, even in any regard, you might feel so insecure about your accomplishments and talent and scale, what you may or may not be doing. Right, because we're all just a mirror and a reflection of each other that what it might make you a little upset by what you're seeing and then you might retaliate against me in some form. And I knew my whole life that I just didn't feel strong enough to stick up and stand up for myself. Josh: So all of that made for this recipe of living life that way cut to today. I'm the proud father of two adoring children. I have an eight year old daughter, a six year old son who are my absolute everything. I love playing the role of father. I love being their dad. And early on in their young lives, I realize that I see what's happening here. I'm the child in this circle and I'm the one who has work to do. So I said, guys, keep doing what you're doing. I get it. I can't continue to be this miserable kind of person and have them watch me that way their whole lives. It wouldn't end well. And fast forwarding to, you know, seeing an empty nester. Now, if I was 20 years down the road and they just grew up with that type of father, they'd naturally become that type of person. And in that scenario, there'd be nothing I can do and I wouldn't be able to live with myself. So I said, that's all I need to say. Right. I'm Joe: Yeah. Josh: Going to make them prouder. I'm going to make me proud or I'm going to do what needs to happen. And I started just taking inventory, replacing some of my bad non serving habits with slightly better ones and slowly but surely seeing the positive result in effect of that. And here we are. I just keep stacking those on each other and I've come a long way and still have a long way to go. But I'm very happy and proud with where I am today. Joe: And so what did you do in your past life, let's say that you're now doing what you do. I mean, what was your what was all these things you were doing while you're hiding from the world? Josh: So I got in in eighth grade, I got bit by the acting bug, right? I found that in there was a school audition taking place and I felt like I should audition to see what this was about. And I did. And it was a a drug awareness program, whatever it was. And I got a cast as the comic relief of all things. So I was bumbling around on stage and hundreds of my right, hundreds of my classmates were laughing at me from what I was doing on stage. Now, I knew that they were in fact laughing at me. Right. They weren't laughing with me, but I was I was OK with that because I was getting the attention I was so desperately seeking. So I thought, wow, I will continue to seek out this attention, hopefully thinking this is what I need to fill this emotional void. Right. This external approval is exactly what I need now. Doesn't work that way. It took me a few decades to realize that, but I set out on a path to become an actor and said, I'm going to dedicate my life to this because if I could just get this daily, my life sucked. So I pursued that dream. I wound up spending 15 years in New York as a working actor and filmmaker. Great credits, wonderful era of my life. But again, it didn't really, you know, fill the void. You know, when the curtain comes down, I'm still miserable and alone in the corner, often crying and trying to figure out where my life went so wrong. Josh: So I did that for a while. I had some, you know, day jobs to pay the bills. I taught myself webdesign to keep myself busy when the Internet started rising up in the nineties. And slowly but surely, I just became somewhat of an entrepreneur, not realizing at the time that that's what it was. But I was just trying to make ends meet while I was pursuing my passion. And then I found myself running my own digital marketing agency where I was building websites for an industry and all this stuff. Ten years later, this industry became just like any other toxic relationship we might find ourselves in personally. But this was my business and the industry taking full responsibility. It was on me because I was showing up that way, which is why I was attracting those very people. So I knew that something needed to change. This correlated with the time where me and my children had the talk, where I was the child, and I said, I get it. I know it has to be done. This relationship with the industry and my my work here, it can't continue. It's part of the problem. Let me rip the Band-Aid off. I said I don't know what's next, but I'm going to seek something. I'm going to figure it out. And just like if you're in a bad relationship, you don't necessarily wait until you have another relationship. Josh: You get out and figure it out. And that's what I did. I got out. I said, let me take a few months. Let me take some time, figure out what I want to do, where I want to go and be true to myself for one of the first times in my life. And I said podcasting. I think I felt that I would be good at it and I would enjoy it. And it would create opportunity and I would connect with people because, God, that's all I ever wanted in my life. I said, well, if I do it honestly and authentically, I might finally attract the right kind of people instead of attracting the miserable and getting what I don't want because you focus on it. So I created a brand called The Hidden Entrepreneur and then became that became the podcast. And I started interviewing people. And slowly but surely I started feeling good about it and getting a good response. And it just kept building the confidence. And I was told I was half decent and I certainly started feeling that way, still replacing a lot of my bad habits with better ones, trying to live wonderfully for my children. It all came together. And now here we are. I'm doing some some some really interesting things in the podcast space because of those moments that that got me here. Joe: Right. And that's what's important. That's why I wanted to ask, because, you know, as much as everyone can say, their life went on a certain path and certain things did not go right Josh: Uh. Joe: Or whatever, they all build the person you are today. And so I think probably whatever you're doing with Pod Max now, you're leaning on some of your marketing and, you know, Josh: Exactly. Joe: Your and all the stuff that you did earlier in Josh: All Joe: Your entrepreneurial Josh: Of it. Joe: Life. Right. So it's like you can't throw the baby out with the bathwater. That's this. This is all created to help to create who you are now, to make this next portion of your life excel even more. Josh: Sometimes in the moment, we don't and can't recognize that a lot of acts in retrospect that the game is being able in real time when there's a little bit of a glitch or a detour that you're forced to take or something that's happening that you didn't quite see coming wasn't as you planned. You have to realize, wow, this is probably going to work out for the best. And as you're seeing everything I've spelled out, even my acting and film days to this very moment, I pull a lot from those days how to how to communicate, how to perform, how to create, how to talk on the mic, how to write. All of that is acting and film. And then, like you said, the marketing from the digital marketing, knowing what you don't want on a grand scale to know exactly what you do want. It's all relevant and quite perfect. Joe: Yeah, and it's funny, and you gave it away already, but I was going to ask you where you from? And I was like, he's got to be from New York. I can recognize and I'm from New York. So he's like, he's got to be from New York. And then you said it. You're like. Josh: What did I say, oh, that I spent time there Joe: Yeah, Josh: In New York. Joe: Yeah, and so did I and I and my background is I went to school for music and I Josh: Yeah. Joe: And I landed in New York. I lived two hours north of the city where I grew up. But then I landed Josh: Mayor. Joe: In New York as to be my big time career break Josh: As Joe: In. Josh: A drummer, Joe: Yeah, Josh: Yeah. Joe: Right. And so and at the same time, we all have to go find jobs. And then and then you sort of get steered off a path because you start making money and going, OK, how much do I want to suffer living in this one bedroom apartment and eating mac and cheese every night where Josh: True. Joe: It's just whatever, whatever developed over that time. But we had the same sort of path. So it's Josh: Yeah. Joe: Interesting to hear your story. Josh: Mm hmm. Joe: Ok, so you started podcasting and you have a podcast called The Hidden Entrepreneur. How did you make the jump from that to come to being the coach? When I heard you say you're actually a co-founder of God Macs. So where did this idea come from? How did we get to where we are today with that? Josh: In twenty eighteen is when I created The Hidden Entrepreneur Show, and it's still running strong today, over 200 episodes and I in the summer of 2019, I had the opportunity to record episodes of my show at an event. And one of the one of the people that I was interviewing didn't know him prior to this event was Eric Cabral, who's now my co founding partner in Pod Max. I interviewed him for my show and we hit it off and we connected. And after the interview, he said, you know, we're both from Jersey. I have. Which is where I live Joe: Mm Josh: Now. Joe: Hmm. Josh: He said, I have a I have a studio in in Jersey. Once you come out and check it out one day and, you know, we'll see we'll see what's possible. And I said, OK. And then it turns out I never left. Now, what I like to point out is that what what I did just, you know, basically, yes. By design, but subconsciously during that first interview where he was on my show when we didn't know each other prior, was I was already leaning into my full potential, which was quite different from what I did the first 40 plus years of my life, where I spoke about I showed up really small, didn't want to rock the boat, didn't want to make you feel insecure. So I just took a back seat. But then in twenty eighteen, I started figuring out how can I come to the table with the ability that again, I've always known darn well I'm more than capable of doing. And really I believe we're all in that same boat. We all know what we are capable of doing. We just adjust and alter that for so many reasons inappropriately, so more often than not. So I said, I'm going to just start coming out, you know, strongly with what I'm capable of and miraculously, quote unquote, I started attracting the very people who understood that, who liked it, who appreciated it, respected it. Ironically, all the things I wanted my whole life, Joe: Mm Josh: Just Joe: Hmm. Josh: Somebody to appreciate me. How can anybody appreciate when you're being, you know, a weak man, Joe: Yeah. Josh: Which I was. So I thought that if I were to come out powerfully doing what I'm capable of, everybody is going to retaliate against me. And oh, no, I don't even see those people. I only see people like you, like Eric, like people who are like, wow, you know, like attracts like, of Joe: Mm Josh: Course. Joe: Hmm. Josh: So that's that's the amazing thing. So all that to say, I was already able to do what I was doing to get in front of somebody like Eric, for him to recognize something within me because I had already appeared that way. So you have to sort of do the work first instead of like me hoping that somebody can see a glimmer of potential in me and then anoint me capable and relevant to the masses. You know, that doesn't happen. Joe: Right. Josh: So it only happens when you are first putting it out there to attract the good back. So Eric and I started talking and hanging out and we had a very similar vibe and connection, a lot of similar goals. He also came from the podcast space. He has and had his own show. And we just started talking about this idea Pod Max, which started in person in twenty nineteen. It started as a live in person event. We had the studio in North Jersey where we figured we do this one day kind of hybrid event where it's part conference, part workshop and part podcast recordings. So we set up makeshift like a dozen different studios like like little mini areas where hosts can record with guests. And we invited about a dozen show hosts in, sold tickets to the event to high level entrepreneurs and thought leaders who wanted to get their message out by recording on shows we would match them. Thus the speed dating for the podcast industry. And over the course of that day, each hour they would rotate into a new studio area and record as a guest on a different show. And in between those recordings, we would provide a catered lunch, we would provide networking, we would provide training and education, and we would provide a high level keynote. So we had the conference, the workshop feel the retreat and the podcast recordings. We did that a few times and then twenty twenty happened. So we're like, OK, well this is crazy because we're a live events company. What happens now? We had no idea, so he said, can this work virtually? There was only one way to find out. We took that agenda, that format. We sort of reworked what needed to be worked into a virtual format. And since May of 20, 20, which was our first pod, Max Virtual, we've never looked back. We're about to do our 14th 14th virtual event in August. And it's you know, it's one of those things that we we couldn't have seen that coming. Right. We wouldn't Joe: Yep, Josh: Have even looked virtual. Joe: Correct. Josh: So so now it's an eight hour event, which people who don't really know our style will say eight hours virtual. That's crazy. But we hear all the time that it flies by because we've sort of been able to really hone in on making all of those minutes per hour the best they can be. Joe: Right. Josh: And then the entrepreneurs get to record still on multiple shows. We have a keynote. We have training and education. So we know prior to the event we work with the thought leaders to help them further identify, practice and fine tune their message. So when they get to the recording, they feel confident and ready to go. Joe: It's so cool, so how many of these do you do? Josh: We do them about every six weeks. Joe: Wow, and how Josh: Yeah. Joe: Did you figure out the logistics, like I attended a couple virtual conferences and logistically it's very cool because you you don't really miss anything because a lot of stuff is is recorded to playback later and you're not wasting a lot of time on a showroom floor. You're going exactly what you want Josh: Exactly. Joe: Without having to walk around it. But how did you guys figure that out? Josh: Well, it came from the live, and then we we sort of transferred that virtually and we fill the eight hours, it's single track, right, to everybody's in the room going to the same places, Joe: Ok, Josh: Doing the same things. Joe: Ok, Josh: Yeah, Joe: And Josh: It. Joe: What's the number of attendees that you've gotten up to? Josh: We get about 50. Joe: That's amazing. Josh: Now. Joe: It's really cool, and I wasn't sure when so when when we talked about this being sort of like the speed dating for podcasting, there's a lot of podcasters out there who either are looking for gas or they want to be guest on podcast. And Josh: Mm hmm. Joe: I think they need to understand how iPod, Max, differs from those services that are out there, whether it's someone you get this connection with someone and they start feeding you gas or Josh: Yeah. Joe: You get this connection with someone and they keep putting you on different podcasts. Josh: Mm hmm. Joe: I think the important thing is that as a podcast for myself, I get I Josh: All Joe: Haven't Josh: The Joe: Been Josh: Time. Joe: On a podcast, which is kind of funny, but I haven't. Josh: Wow. Joe: But I get a lot of requests either from an agency that that Josh: Mm hmm. Joe: Said, hey, we want to work with you with really great guests or just people that find my podcasts and reach out and say, hey, I think you would really like this person. And I have to sort of filter through Josh: Yeah. Joe: What I think fits my audience. I'm not going to accept everyone because Josh: That's right. Joe: It's not fair to the listeners. Josh: Mm Joe: It's Josh: Hmm. Joe: A selfish endeavor for me. And you kind of hit upon it yourself. It makes it allows me to connect with people like you. It allows me to learn so much. But at the same time, I need to make sure that I'm servicing my audience and educating them on what they came here in the first place to see. Josh: That's right. Joe: So when you do iPod, Max, how do you do this matchmaking? How do you figure out that this guest is going to go and sit with this person and do recording and it fits the mold of their podcast or they're the right person? How does that all happen? Josh: Well, we've been lucky enough to do it for a while, and we have a lot turned out to be a core group of show hosts, like the vast majority of the show hosts return over and over again. Joe: Ok. Josh: Why? There's a lot of winwin. There's a lot of benefit. It's really cool for them to get to record three episodes in one day Joe: Mm hmm. Josh: In three different hours, which is a great thing. They also get to network with a lot of high level entrepreneurs and the other show hosts. They get to be right in the room with. We bring three now virtually we bring three keynotes in at a very high level of keynote. So they get to leverage that relationship off. Often they'll reach out to the keynote and then welcome them on their show. So it's just a really great vibe. There's a lot of a lot of personal growth and development built in to the day that you almost don't see coming until you're on the back end of it and you're like, oh, my gosh, it's just amazing. So they keep returning and through that then they become like family, right? Joe: Mm Josh: Like Joe: Hmm. Josh: At every event, the chats, everybody's just excited to see each other again. And it's sort of like old home week. So to answer your question, we've gotten to really know a good core group of the show hosts, knowing who they are, what their businesses are, what their shows are, what their goals are. And with that, we can then do our job. That takes a lot of the matching difficulty out because we know exactly who's coming through that they'd be perfectly matched for and because of the reputation where we've done such a good job prepping the entrepreneurs and attracting the right level of entrepreneurs and training them. Well, we hear all the time from the hosts that they don't even they don't even worry who they're going to be matched with. Joe: Right. Josh: You know, the week prior, you get you know, you get all the contact and bio information, but they're like, I don't even need to worry because I know whoever comes through, whoever you match me time and time again is going to be a home run. So then we we ask the entrepreneur coming through to fill out a somewhat detailed, extensive profile so we get to know them so we can properly match them. Then we just take the two sides and we have a few team members who are specifically dedicated to the matchmaking process because it's you know, it's got to be done right, takes a little bit of time, but we do it and then everybody seems to be happy on the other side of it. Joe: That's really cool, so when I saw on the website there was a apply to be a host, Josh: Mm hmm. Mm Joe: Correct? Josh: Hmm. Mm hmm. Joe: Is that the is that where the people that are going to do these interviews go to become part of TotEx? Josh: Correct, Joe: Ok. Josh: We're always, always open to meeting new potential show hosts for our event. Basically, you fill that out and the most important thing is we have to make sure because we we can't anticipate prior who's going to come through the event. But generally, our show hosts fill a category that can be broad enough in nature where it's an entrepreneur, it's a business show, it's about success, struggles, failures, life stories, growth mindset, that whole concept. A lot of categories fit into that. So as long as you're as long as you could, as long as you welcome guests that fit that, we could most likely start the conversation. And then we have a few other criteria just to make sure that you're relevant to to our whole brand and audience. Joe: So that was you actually hit upon one of my questions, which was what is the variety of hopes that you have at Cognex? Like, I would just give you an example off the top of my head. Would you Josh: Mm hmm. Joe: Ever have a. And it sounds like no, the answer is no based on what you just gave me, but that you at this moment there, it's more about entrepreneurial stuff. It's about success. It's about business. It's about things like that's not like you have one of these host who has a cooking podcast. Josh: It's so funny because Joe: Ok. Josh: To know well, yesterday, in fact, it's very strange you said cooking because yesterday a show we received an application from a potential new show host and it was, in fact, a cooking podcast. Joe: Unbelievable. Josh: That's the most yeah, it's the most amazing thing. But I think that to his credit, I think that there was an entrepreneurial spin. Like it's like he says like like I'll welcome chefs and cooks and entrepreneurs. I don't know. So Joe: Restaurant Josh: So there was Joe: Owners Josh: I mean. Joe: Were Josh: Yeah, Joe: Given Josh: Now Joe: A. Josh: Now something like that is going to be a little too niche for us because we can't fulfill. Right. Joe: Yeah. Josh: We don't get that kind of people, Joe: Now. Josh: But we are we do have the in the near future, we're going to start niching these out like pod max invest. Right. Joe: Oh, Josh: And then Joe: Cool. Josh: Every show is about investing in real estate and whatever. And then the people who come through or their pod max health and wellness. And then every show is that and then the audience supports that. But right now it's the first thing. It's entrepreneurial, it's business, it's growth, it's success. It's a life story. It's struggles, wins, failures, which we find a lot of people, even if they fit a specific niche, we help them extract. Let's get your life story out. And that's in. That's how we work with them prior to the event, to really fit a bigger a bigger audience here. Joe: Yeah, it's funny because my life partner, Joellen, and I have a YouTube channel that kind of morphed, we started it when covid hit and it sort of morphed over the year to now be really concentrated on travel. Our goal is to eventually have that the you know, Josh: A Joe: We're Josh: Travel log. Joe: Not young, so we're trying to inspire people of our age to go out and just do whatever you want to do and what's what's your excuse? Right. So we were talking about how some of these YouTube channels are lucky because they are they deal with things that are very current. So these guys that have these Krypto YouTube channels, they can't get out videos fast enough because that things Josh: Mm. Joe: Are changing so quickly. So it'd be interesting if you have a crypto pod, Max, someday and Josh: That's Joe: You could Josh: Right. Joe: Have like 12 crypto experts or I mean host Josh: Yeah. Joe: Having these people on because it's this new frontier. It's just crazy. But it's true that the things that are current, it's easy for those people. That's not so easy for people like us who are just in the trenches every day. Josh: Yes. Joe: But we're in New Jersey. Did you hold this just because. My own curiosity, because I live there as well. Josh: Trenton. Joe: Trenton OK, OK. I lived in Montclair, Upper Montclair, Josh: Oh. Joe: West Orange, even Newark, Josh: Of course, Joe: Even Newark Josh: One Joe: As Josh: Fifth Joe: It when it was starting Josh: Well. Joe: To grow. So. Yeah. Josh: 153 B, I went to Montclair State for a year. Joe: Oh, Josh: Yeah, Joe: That's so cool. Josh: You Joe: Yeah, Josh: Were by Joe: So, Josh: The campus, I imagine. Joe: Yeah, I was I was right there Josh: Yeah. Joe: Trumpet's the jazz club. You remember Josh: Yes, Joe: That? Yes. Josh: Of course, Joe: Ok, Josh: So funny Joe: I know. Josh: Jersey taqiyya. Joe: That's right. So talk to me about the people. So you have the application online for the host and you're obviously looking for those all the time to expand Josh: Mm Joe: Because Josh: Hmm. Joe: What is it? Each each host gets three interviews during that eight hour day. Josh: That's right. Joe: Ok, and then the people that want to attend Pod Max are potentially people that want to be guests be matched up with one or Josh: That's Joe: Two Josh: Right. Joe: Or any of Josh: Mm Joe: Those Josh: Hmm. Joe: Hosts. Josh: Three Joe: Three, three, three. Josh: Up to three Joe: Right, Josh: Up. Joe: Right. And then on the website I saw there was a button to buy. Is it is it to purchase a ticket for the next five max in August? Josh: That is correct. Joe: Ok. Josh: So the revenue and the and the tickets are from the entrepreneur side who want to be guests on the shows, Joe: Got Josh: They Joe: It. Josh: Come in, we train them, we work with them, we put them and match them on the show. So they record. We then, you know, they're in the room for the keynotes and the networking and everybody's happy. Joe: So explain to me, when you say we train them, what does that mean? Josh: We have so we when we first started virtual, we didn't have any sort of built in training, we just saw people coming to the event and the day the event happened and that was that. Then we had some people coming to us that said, you know what, I want to attend because they saw this as a great way to basically click a button, buy a ticket, and they'll be a guest on three shows. Right. How how else can that happen so quickly? And so guarantee that you're going to record in the course of a day and it's done now. You got three under your belt Joe: Mm hmm. Josh: More. We started getting people who in their own right were successful business people, six, seven, eight figure business people at everything from the C Suite on down. But they're coming to us saying, I've never been on a show before, but I want to or I've been on some. But I'm not that good. I need more confidence. I need more need more skill. And we thought, oh, my gosh, we're attracting a wide variety of successful business people who are now trying to break into podcasts, guesting. So we said, well, let's hold a prevent training where prior to the event, which is what we do now, we hold a 90 minute session with all the attendees prior to the event where we work with them in small groups. So they get one on one attention with Eric and me where we really get them going with their story, their message. We we listen to it, we prompt them, we give them feedback. We have them do it again. We give them notes. We say you're missing the bigger point. This is actually your sound bite. This is your message. This is what I'm hearing. And we just poke and prod until they're ready to go. And then they take the week prior to the event to get comfortable and practice and rehearse. And we do that kind of training. Joe: Well, that's very cool, and I think what I found as a as a host is I run into those people when they've written a book Josh: Mm Joe: And now Josh: Hmm. Joe: They want to promote the book. And Josh: Ok. Joe: They know that a really good way to promote the book is to get on as many podcasts as you can to get the message out Josh: Ok. Joe: That they've never been on one. So Josh: There you go. Joe: There you can see that they're a little awkward in having to talk to a camera and you know what I mean? So I find that that's that's a that's a big spot for me. When I get someone contacts me about, hey, we want to have so-and-so on. He's just written this great book and it's going to be released on Amazon in a month. And we'd like to get some sales. And Josh: Uh. Joe: And then you get that person and you can tell that they're just sort of wet behind Josh: Now. Joe: The ears in regards to being a guest. Josh: Yeah. Joe: So. Josh: Right, whether it's a host or a guest, you know, you said you have guests, but certainly, you know, as a host, it's not often as easy as it looks, right. Just because somebody is in front of a camera and has a mic, once you start doing it and then you put and then you're like, OK, this is a podcast. There's a lot of moving parts that you didn't anticipate. You have no clue what to do. And then there's so many things that you don't even know what you don't know until it's too late. And you're like, wait, what am I missing here? Same thing on the guest side. Everybody thinks like, no, I just talk to me, ask me some questions, I'll answer them. No way. Because there's two parts here. There's the technical and then the technique. Right. The technical is all this stuff, how you're framed, how you look, the lighting, the earphones, the microphone. Right. All very deliberate. And then there's the technique. What are your stories? How long are you answering? What's your energy and persona like? What are your sound bytes? Joe: Please, Josh: And we teach Joe: Please Josh: All that. Joe: Tell me that when you do some of this training with these new guests that you actually talk about equipment. Josh: Oh, my gosh, you have to, Joe: It's Josh: Of Joe: Just Josh: Course. Yeah, Joe: A. Josh: Thank you for observing that, because we don't want them showing up to the event because they're representing us and our brand. And it's all right. The next events that are better, they are they'll look good to the hosts and vice versa. Right. So we always require great professional level of host because we want a great host to represent the guests. And that's what makes it so well. So hosts nine times out of ten will already have, especially if they're working with us, they're professional. This is part of their business model and they're in it for the long run. They have a growth mindset. They get it. They're up and running guests. So you're right. Even like the ones that you would expect, like C suite level or quote unquote known famous company executives and employees, it's like they not ever you could assume, but they don't know. Joe: Yeah, Josh: A lot of them just don't know. So, Joe: That's. Josh: Yeah, we we do talk about that. Like you can't use your computer. Might stop with the window behind you, stop with that terrible green screen because half of your face is, you know, see through and it just doesn't work. Yeah. Joe: Yeah, I think the most brutal thing for me is when they have my voice coming out of their speaker and it keeps it keeps wiping out what right instead of it coming in headphones or in ears like I have, it just keeps Josh: Yeah, Joe: Hammering Josh: Uh. Joe: Over whatever when we're talking because it's the feet, it's the loop coming back through the mic. It's just Josh: Yeah, Joe: Brutal. Josh: Yeah, and even the angle, you got the perfect angle, you know, that that's, you know, are you too high, too low? It's it's all right. The technical and the technique, we cover it all. Joe: That's very cool. Well, that's that Josh: Thanks. Joe: Makes me so happy the more we can do that with guess, Josh: At. Joe: The better it will be. Josh: We're doing our part. Joe: So when is Permax? In August. Josh: August twenty seventh, we always have it on a Friday, it started that way and then we continued that way because one of the reasons it makes so much sense now to have it on a Friday, especially virtual, you spend eight hours from 9:00 to 5:00 Eastern again. Believe me, it will fly by. That's my promise. That's the way we make it happen. It's going to fly by no matter if you're a guest or a host. But you've still spent eight hours in the room absorbing everything and recording everything. So we just thought it was it was quite perfect to almost accidentally do it on a Friday, but then keep it it because let's take the weekend to sort of decompress and let it all process. Joe: Sure. Let me ask you the more of a personal question in regards to Josh: Sure. Joe: You with the hidden entrepreneur and you as a host and then as a guest, are you busy being a guest on other podcasts? And are you when you are a guest or are you talking about your show and what you've done as an entrepreneur? Are you talking more about, let's say, Pod Max and what you're doing with that? Josh: So I'm I'm a guest here and now in real time, Joe: Yeah. Josh: So you're so you're asking Joe: Do Josh: When Joe: You do a lot Josh: I'm Joe: Of these? Josh: Out. Joe: Do you do Josh: Oh yeah. Joe: You are you a guest? A lot on Josh: Yes, Joe: A lot of. Josh: Yeah, you ask a good question, though, what we what I do and really what we teach and promote is it's less about what you do and more about who you are, because that's what I think people are going to be attracted to. So I've spent time really honing in on and perfecting and continuing to perfect my story, my messaging, my communication, my positioning. A it's what I do on the business side. Right. So you sort of have to show that you can do what you're claiming to teach. Right. Which I think a lot of people Joe: Right, Josh: Don't Joe: What Josh: Do. Joe: You're asking others to do, right? Josh: Right. So if I can sort of show an example through me and be somewhat good at it, you're going to have more confidence coming along with what product or service I have. So it's in my best interest for a variety of reasons also because I still have some of that. I want the external validation right now. I don't need it, but it always feels good just as confirmation that you're doing something people value. Right. How else do you get that? But the feedback. So by doing something like this, it gives me feedback, my personal feedback and others. So I continue to hone and craft my story and message because it's what I teach and it'll help get my brand and message and story and business out there. Further, I, I talk about where I came from and my struggles, upbringing, and like we touched upon here, how I spent all the time hiding and all of those years led to creating what became the hidden entrepreneur, which then helped lead me into a career deep in the podcast space. But really it's about communication because you can apply it anywhere. You can apply it to your social media videos, to your emails, you know, to your sales calls, to all these stories and messaging still become relevant. So it's all encompassing. Joe: So for the entrepreneurs, again, that would be listening to my show, when you decided to do your podcast called The Hidden Entrepreneur. What was your main reasoning behind that? Josh: Great question, the reason out of the gate was I felt like I needed something to do right. I left that 10 year career running my own digital marketing agency, and I said, OK, what do I want to do with myself now? I didn't have all the answers. This is the important part. I didn't have all the answers. I just got the next answer, which I felt it clearly podcasting. And I said, I'm going to try it. I'm going to do it. I want to do it. I'm motivated to do it. And I think I'd be good at it. Meaning I think that I'll stick with it. And I think that this can really turn into something. I think that I can create this show and then around that show, parlay that into some sort of product or service in some regard that will put me on a path to success that I can live with and support myself with. That's really all I knew. And I knew that the show would give me confidence, right. Just by doing it and showing up each day, I knew that it would give me connection to each individual person. And lo and behold, it's it's it's literally has given me life. Joe: And the guests that you have on that show are entrepreneurs of all walks of life, but are Josh: Correct. Joe: So it's not that you are talking specifically to entrepreneurs who, like yourself, broke out of a shell and decided to do something. Josh: No, Joe: It's just Josh: No. Joe: It's just the name of it. It's something that speaks Josh: Correct? Joe: To your heart because that's Josh: Mm hmm. Joe: How you felt for a long time. And now it's just sort of like my show where we have great guests who are running their own businesses that have gone through the struggles are going through the struggles, have Josh: There Joe: Survived Josh: You go. Joe: 20, 20, all of those things. Josh: Absolutely, yes. Joe: Ok, cool, so then when let me ask you this question that when you are a guest, because I think all of this helps not only all the entrepreneurs that are listening, Josh: Mm hmm. Joe: That I don't have a podcast that don't go on podcasts that don't listen to whatever it might be, Josh: Right. Joe: Which is hard for you and I to understand, because, like, I was at the gym and I constantly having a podcast in my years. But when you are a guest, how do you figure out what your story is? Because you are this you led this life like I did, Josh: The. Joe: Right, with all of these things. And that's sort of like this is a selfish question, because I'm asking because Josh: Sure. Joe: If I was to be a guest on a podcast, Josh: Mm Joe: I'm Josh: Hmm. Joe: Not sure what Joe Costello would show up for that, because I don't there's so much that has happened. But it's not like I like I had Shaun Spawner on my show who summited all of the summits, like the they Josh: Right, Joe: Call Josh: Right, Joe: It the Josh: Right, Joe: I forget Josh: Right. Joe: What it's called anyhow. But he was amazing. He went to Everest, he went to the North Pole, South Pole, did all the summits. And so he has a story to tell and he has a short film that they did. There's people who come on and they have books. And so they've written a book on something very special. And Josh: Yeah, yeah. Joe: What's the story that you tell when you are on a show as a guest? Josh: The past forty six minutes will answer that. But in all seriousness, I I have over time you develop a library of stories that you have at the ready that encompass you and who you are, what you stand for, how you want to stand, why you want to stand for that, how you want to be perceived and positioned in your in your world. So I have a variety of stories that come about that I could explore based on the conversation I'm having. But they all wind up having an overarching theme, a core message, a core value, core stance that I deliver based on the hidden entrepeneur and where I've been and who I am and where I'm going. So you could learn about me so you can relate to me. So maybe you can like me enough to say, I want to I want to get to know this person more, see what else he does, Joe: Mm Josh: See Joe: Hmm. Josh: What he's about, and then we can explore each other's worlds together. So that takes a little bit of time to do, but that's sort of what we do. So if you're asking which I think you're asking, like, how would somebody like you who doesn't yet go on shows, where do you begin? Is that sort of what you're asking? Joe: Yeah, Josh: Like Joe: I mean, I Josh: Maybe Joe: Think. Josh: Right now? Everybody has a story where you you had a a life affirming or confirming incident that we can all write like I don't think I did necessarily, but I have enough of a story to make it interesting, relatable, compelling write. These are all things that are learnable skills, but they do start somewhere. Joe: All right. Josh: So you I read your website. So I know generally about you wanting growing up. You wanted to be a drummer, Joe: Mm hmm. Josh: Right, for the Stones or with the Stones. And so so broadly speaking, even if you started there with like a dream lost, never fulfilled yet, you know, where was the struggle there? I could spend five minutes and really dig into how painful did that get? What were some of the the turn how close did you get if if at all? What were some of those moments when you were behind closed doors in your own head? And then where are you today and how did it all go? Right. How did it all lead? OK, that could be a very compelling story that people can relate to. Of course, not everybody wanted to be a drummer for the Stones, but we all have our own version of that. So that's all you're tapping into, making it intriguing, making it compelling. And everybody has fascinating stories that they can put pieces together with and share them with the people who want to hear it. Joe: Yeah, that's great, I it's just that you think about it and you go and I think a lot of people feel this way, right? They're like, Josh: Nothing happened, right? Joe: My my story is not that interesting. Why should I tell it? And I don't necessarily feel that way. I've gone through a lot of iterations Josh: Right. Joe: And I have a lot of experience. And besides podcasting and our YouTube channel, you know, I run a seven figure booking agency here in Phoenix and Scottsdale. So I'm a successful entrepreneur. But again, this is the selfish thing for me is like I Josh: Yeah. Joe: Like meeting people like you and learning these kinds of things and sharing them before you. And I can help one entrepreneur out there with our show or what Josh: Yeah. Joe: You do with Cognex. That's a great thing, right? If it's just about and that's what I loved about this interview with you, is that you were very vulnerable and the way you spoke about yourself and it and it's refreshing to have someone to do that and not come and go. Oh, yeah. Well, yeah, I ran I did this and I was running these huge corporations. And then I had all this money and I figured I didn't need any more money. So I decided to start a fight or whatever. I mean, it's just it's nice to hear that you and I went sort of through the same kind of thing Josh: Mm Joe: And Josh: Hmm. Joe: It was refreshing to hear. So I appreciate you doing that. I wanted to say thank you earlier when you were doing it, but the momentum was going. But it was very, very cool that Josh: Great. Joe: You were that real about all of that stuff. So thank you. Josh: You're very welcome. Joe. Joe: So what is the cost for the August next? Josh: We have three ticket levels that you could you could explore on the site generally there between under a thousand, up to two thousand. Joe: Ok, and. Josh: Depending on how you want the experience to go. Joe: Got it and all of that up there, they click on that button and they'll have those choices there. Josh: Mm hmm. Joe: Is there a deadline? Josh: Yes, one week prior to the event, tickets, clothes, whatever, whenever you're hearing this, if it's one week prior to the very next event, tickets, clothes, because that's when we have to do the match ups and get all the information out to the attendees. Joe: What's the date and August again? Josh: August 27. Joe: Twenty seven. OK, is there anything else that I missed that you wanted to touch upon? Josh: No, you've Joe: Wow, Josh: Been thoroughly thorough. Joe: That's beautiful. OK, great. So the links that you got work for you in order for people to either contact you in regards to the hidden entrepreneur, contact you in regards to Pod Max, what's the website, you URL, all of that stuff so we can make sure and then I'll have it all in the notes anyhow. But if anybody's listening, I want to I want Josh: Mm hmm. Joe: Them to hear it. Josh: That's great. Well, the business side is Pod Max Dot CEO, and then on the personal side, which will lead you to all kinds of forks in the road that you could explore. It's Josh Carey Dotcom. Joe: Perfect. OK, well, this is been great, man, I really appreciate it. I was excited to hear about Max. I will also check out The Hidden Entrepreneur. I appreciate you coming on here and sharing this with the audience. And hopefully we'll get a bunch of people that will attend and maybe some new host and guest will come out of all of this. But I appreciate your time today, and it's very, very nice to meet you and very interesting to hear what's going on with Max. Josh: Likewise, I appreciate it greatly. Thanks so much. Joe: Thank you, man. I'll talk to you soon.

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Tim O'Brien from The Healthy Place

Play Episode Listen Later Jun 30, 2021 56:01

Tim O'Brien along with his wife Becki, have created a unique vitamin, supplement and nutrition store that is more about helping people than it is about margins and commissions. As Tim says" Souls before sales!" It was a pleasure sitting down with Tim to learn more about The Healthy Place and what products and services they have to offer. After Tim educated me, I'm definitely going to lean on him and his team in the future, to help me make better and more educated decisions when it comes to my health. I hope you enjoy this episode and you walk away with at least one snippet that either helps you in your entrepreneurial journey or with you health in general. For 30% off, please use our affiliate link as it helps us to generate a little income to produce this podcast...thx so much! https://findyourhealthyplace.com/?rfsn=5901087.08b0f6 Thanks for listening! Joe Tim O'Brien Founder - The Healthy Place Website: https://findyourhealthyplace.com/ Website: https://livelyvitaminco.com/ Website: https://wildtheory.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/applewellness/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thehealthyplaceTHP YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYQVVKB58mGd_YgxAL0LMGA/videos LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/apple-wellness-the-healthy-place/about/ Email: tim@findyourhealthyplace.com Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.libsyn.com Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to: https://joecostelloglobal.lybsyn.com Follow Joe: https://linktr.ee/joecostello Transcript Tim: My guest today is Tim O'Brien, the founder of The Healthy Place, an e-commerce store for healthy products. They also have for brick and mortar locations, one in Madison, Wisconsin, one in Fitchburg, Wisconsin, one in Middleton, Wisconsin, and one in Sun Prairie, Wisconsin. Tim's passion is health and wellness, and he has spent the last decade sharing his passion with the world on a personal side. He is married to Becky and together they have three children. In this conversation with Tim, I expressed how much health and wellness is important to myself and how convoluted the marketplace is and very difficult to trust who you buy from and which products you buy. I was excited to have Tim on the show so that I could learn more about the difference in what the healthy place offers over buying products at other places like GNC, Walgreens, the vitamin shop and obviously Amazon.com. So sit back and listen to the education that we get from Tim on how to buy better and healthier products in the health and wellness space. Joe: Hey, Tim, welcome to the show. Tim: Hey, hey, how you doing, buddy? Joe: I'm doing great, man, happy, what is it? Wednesday, I lost track, I just got Tim: Yeah, Joe: Back into Tim: It's Joe: Town. Tim: Hump hump day of the week, man, and Joe: Beautiful. Tim: I'm doing this to say thank you for giving me a chance to be on your show. Man, this is cool. Joe: Yeah, no, that's my pleasure, as as I mentioned before, we actually started this that I have, you know, I know that literally health is everything. Like you can have everything in the world that you ever, ever wanted. And without your health, it's just, you know, it's it's unfortunate because I know people go through things that had nothing to do with them not being healthy. They just got delivered a bad hand, Tim: Yahav. Joe: You know, so that's a different story. But those of us Tim: Jerome. Joe: That can make sure we stay healthy, there are things that we can do. But before we get into all of that, and as a lot of my listeners for the podcast and the viewers of a YouTube channel, now, I'd like to get the back story because a lot of the people who listen to the show are my hope is that these entrepreneurial spirits that are trying to figure out what they want to do are there in the midst of doing it. And they they need ideas from people that are being successful doing it. So I would like to go back as far as you're willing to go back to allow myself and the viewers to understand how you got into what you're doing today. What Tim: I love Joe: For? Tim: To share that. Yeah. Joe: Yeah, like what triggered the fact that you're now in this world of, you know, Tim: Supplements, Joe: The health world Tim: Natural Joe: And. Tim: Alternatives, Joe: Yeah, Tim: Yeah. Joe: Yeah, yeah. So I'd love to hear that and then we'll get in, Tim: I'd love to. It's Joe: Ok. Tim: A cool story, I kind of like telling it because it's just cool to see how things can work together to sort of bring you to the place that you're at. And it's sort of confirmation in some different ways. So I love to share it, man. I'd be happy to do so when my when I was like five or six years old, my mom fought through thyroid cancer. And I remember her like going through the chemo radiation and losing the hair, like seeing her at the hospital. I have four siblings, so just a lot of fear in the home, worried about mom. And then I remember this time where she came home and she was sort of like excited and sort of like filled with a little bit of hope because she had gone into this health food store in a little town called Muskego, Wisconsin, just this tiny little town that had a health food store. And she talked to this guy named John for like an hour and a half. And John shared with her all these natural alternatives that had some good science and some good reason to believe that it could help her in her process recovery, treatment of the thyroid cancer. And so she would like go in there like once a week, whether it was a refill for some supplements or whether it was some more education, because there was a lot of literature that this guy handed out as well, like books that he gave her. Tim: And I would go with her. And through this whole process, she she was benefited quite a bit from these natural alternatives that helped her and her recovery process. So I remember hearing about that as a little guy. And through that process, she got a job as a manager at this health food store. And she was there all the time, 40, 50 hours a week kind of thing. And us kids were home schooled. So we would go with mom often sitting in this back room of this health food store, doing our math problems, doing our schoolwork. And I watched over the years these testimonies produced of people coming in with chronic pain, depression, sleep issues, other folks that battled cancer, that my mom held their hand through the process, educating them. And so that was like my whole upbringing. And it really got into my DNA that there is natural alternatives out there that work and the general population just doesn't know about them, because the way our medical system set up pharmaceutical medications, you know, we have some of the best doctors in the world. And, you know, you go to them, you get a prescription, you don't Joe: Mm Tim: Necessarily Joe: Hmm. Tim: Get a natural alternative recommendation. So I got a bit passionate about that in my late teen years. So I got a job at a GNC franchise and worked for the owner who invited me to move out to Madison, Wisconsin, to manage some of his GNC stores after a little while. So I was like, man, OK, my boss thinks I'm good at this. I really enjoy helping people, encouraging people. I just happen to like like people in general. So it was it was sort of a fit. Like I got this passion for this natural alternative thing. I feel like I'm helping people. I'm impacting the world. I want to make a difference. And I was managing these GNC franchises in Madison, Wisconsin. Well, there was a corporate takeover, dude, in twenty seven where everybody lost their jobs, like corporate took over these six franchises that my boss owned. And it was like, OMG, like, what am I going to do now? And so I determined, you know, hey, I want to do something. And that's natural alternative space. I have always been sort of passionate about business in general. I had like three paper routes when I was 11 and I hired my sisters for a quarter a day. I was making bank Joe: Right. Tim: And I was so I tried a network marketing business for a little while that was suppliments and that was brutal. Multi-level marketing can be really hard. And I was like, OK, I don't want to go that route. Maybe I should open my own health food store. And at that time I had just met dating, married Becky, my wife. So we're prayerfully like thinking through this. Should we do this, put the house on the line, open up our own health food store and risk everything. And we decided to take the plunge. So our first brick and mortar store, 2010, was in a town called Fitchburg, Wisconsin, which is right outside of Madison, Wisconsin. And then twenty fifteen, it was store number two in the Madison area and then twenty nineteen with stores three and four. So that was going well. We then moved towards ecommerce where like, hey, if we're making an impact and a difference here locally, which is really exciting, we really enjoy it together. We work as a team like let's let's hit the nation. That sounds fun. And so we started to see a little bit of success there, especially ones covid hit of last year because our in-store traffic took a hit. So our pivot as a company, like a lot of smart companies, was, let's focus on e-commerce. And so that really helped us talk about a blessing in disguise, really helped Joe: Mm hmm. Tim: Us figure out the e-commerce space a little bit. So really exciting. In December, January of this last year, we got our little warehouse. So now we have a warehouse in Madison and we're shipping packages out all over the United States. And that's the story. And the mission is about impacting, empowering and educating as many people as we can to just like, learn, grow and create a lifelong foundation of health and wellness. It's like a fanning a flame. You know, somebody already just has a little spark. You know, they're putting the cigarette out outside my store, throwing the McDonald's bag in the trash and like, I need something for my chronic pain all the way up to the health enthusiasts. And no matter what, to me, it's so encouraging to just fan the flame of someone's health and wellness. Because you said it earlier, life is a gift and people need to remember that. Joe: Yeah, and so have you always, based on the background of sitting in that store with your mother and seeing what the proper nutrition and supplements and things like that did for her? Did you always pretty much lead a healthy lifestyle? Tim: Funny is Joe: Don't Tim: No. Joe: Tell me you're a fast food junkie. Tim: No, I wasn't. Yeah, I was, and I always felt very bad if I was going through that fast food line, but my diet really didn't really take a huge impact until I married Becky. So for whatever reason, I would I knew a lot about supplements, really passionate about natural alternatives. But I was I was not the guy who is eating ultra clean, raw, organic, clean. I was like, OK, I'm going to eat a basic diet cleaner than most know what kind of excuses that. And then I'd lean on supplements for nutrition. And so when I met Vecchi, this is two thousand eight, she's like, wow, this doesn't even make sense. Like you can't go eat at pizza, frozen pizza, you know, and then go take your supplements. And so she really convicted me. And it's been a pretty cool team because that's always been her passion is very clean eating. And she didn't understand or know about the supplement natural alternative thing. And my passion has always been for my mom's story of natural alternatives and supplements can change a life. And so then getting married and working together as a team to educate Madison and our social media platforms and on YouTube, it's like there has to be a marriage between nutritional deficiencies, making sure we don't have them eating well, eating clean exercise. So we should work together. And I've improved since meeting, Becky. Joe: Wow, so are you actually telling me that she was already before you guys even met, she was interested in this sort of thing or she was she was Tim: Yeah. Joe: A healthy, clean eating person. Tim: Yes, she was Joe: Wow. Tim: A health enthusiast, yeah, I mean, just health, and that's part of what drew me to her is like, man, this girl's got discipline, like extreme self-control. For me, that's been an area of struggle, just like in general, like discipline waking up early. I'm the guy that would, before I met Becky, like stay up till one and then sleep till nine till I had to quit, get to work. And, you know, he's like, man, we got some work to do. But, yeah, she sure inspired me and a few of those areas. Joe: Ok, so without prying too deeply then, because now you're really piqued, my interest is the fact that you guys are lying so well. How did you meet? Tim: Yeah, so we there was like a young adults meeting through it, through church called Metro Believers Church in Madison, Wisconsin, you know, I'm a Christian, she's a Christian, and in my early twenties, it was like, hey, I really enjoyed finding people like minded. And I think in the back of my mind, I'm like, I'm searching for a life, you know? So I would go to a couple of these different churches, young adult ministry meetings, whatever, 20 something groups. And we just started hanging out. So it was like a group of like six or seven of us. And I was about six months in. I pulled her aside one day after church and said, I still laugh at what I said. I said, Hey, Becky, I've taken a shining to you and I'd like to continue on to marriage. And she's like, oh my gosh. Like, OK, I'm kind of like you, too. It was weird way to ask, but OK. Joe: It's also that's Tim: Yeah, Joe: Old school, Tim: I don't do it right. Oh, yeah. Joe: But also Tim: Oh. Joe: All right, cool, well, that's that's great. So how did you change or why did you change the name from Apple Wellness to the healthy place? Tim: Yeah, really good question, you know, Apple Wellness was a good name, you know, in the sense of like Apple a day keeps the doctor away and we just had too many people thinking we are the Mac Apple store. So I literally get calls, at least weekly, Joe: Wow, Tim: And Joe: That's so subtle. Tim: At least I know, and then I'd see my employee across the way and he'd be talking to somebody and he'd be like, well, try turning the phone off and then turn it back on, you know? Joe: Oh, my Tim: So Joe: God. Tim: Especially after he got the e commerce thing going, I started, Becky, as the graphic designer and kind of branding expert within our company for a long time. She's like the Apple word's taken. That's just gone. And I should have consulted with her a little bit more before we chose the name. Joe: Uh huh. Tim: And so she's always kind of wanted it changed. But then I found out that Apple, the company, has an Apple wellness program Joe: Oh, Tim: For employees Joe: Of. Tim: Like it's trademarked. I mean, so I figured it was just a matter of time before I end up getting some sort of litigation letter from Joe: Yeah, Tim: Apple. Joe: Yeah, well, OK, that's interesting. Tim: Yeah. Joe: So you stole one of my questions, but it was perfect because it was actually in line with what you were talking about. But I want to go back to it because Tim: Sure. Joe: It's important, again, for like the entrepreneurs that are listening to this and what we just went through with covid, you talked about shifting. They're not shifting, but literally adding to what you've already established. Right. So you were Tim: You. Joe: You were a retail store, people walking in foot traffic. That's what you counted on to make a living. Right. So when covid hit, obviously, everyone stayed home. So there goes all the foot traffic. So did you already have the e commerce portion of this set up before this happened when you said it was a blessing in disguise? Were you already ready to go the moment like that? Tim: Really Joe: The Tim: Good. Joe: You know, Tim: Yes, Joe: The doors. Tim: Yes and no, I Joe: Ok. Tim: Mean, it's like we had the website, we had the ability to set up ship products out. We had maybe three hundred out of the four thousand products that we have in our stores on the site. So we were ready in certain ways and then not ready for a lot of things. And we had no idea on the digital side of marketing, Google ads, Facebook ads, SEO optimization, email marketing. We hadn't done text messaging. We hadn't done very much of that, very basic and each one of those areas. So it was all of a sudden like pedal to the metal once March hit, where it was like, OK, we have some of these basic fundamentals. And I always tell a business owner like you, if you don't already, you have to have a website like I mean, covid showed us all that pretty quick, like Joe: Yeah. Tim: Have to have a website and you can get free ones are very inexpensive. Wick's dotcom. I'll tell business owners, like even if you're not a photographer, don't don't try to be don't don't get some real basic a white posterboard. Put the product right over it. Just take a picture by a window. Don't don't try to get real clever with it because Vecchi tells me that it can end up looking really bad if Joe: Mm hmm. Tim: You're trying to do so. Basic things like get a website, get a social media, you know, ask your grandkid if you don't know how to set one up sort of thing. So we had all the basics, but then for us it was like, OK. Let's get live chat on our website, because we are one of our difference makers, is consultations Joe: Huh? Tim: With we change lives because we ask questions and we figure out the best products and forms and brands for their specific issues, problems. So let's get a live chat on our website so we can have those conversations. Let's get free shipping. Let's make it really easy. Even if we lose money on maybe one out of five orders, let's just like make it easy, reduce friction in any way that we can. Let's get on Google ads and Facebook ads. So we hired a digital agency for that and it's pretty cool. A year later, we had 30 percent overnight of our foot traffic was just gone once we were able to stay open, thankfully. But that 30 percent in one year's time, we were able to build that on our e-commerce platforms. We were able to replace what was lost. So I'm still head spinning, so thankful for my team able to bring that together because it's quite the operation and it takes a lot of work. Joe: Yeah, did you did you keep the stores open themselves or did you? Tim: We did Joe: You did OK. Tim: Not. Joe: Ok, Tim: We Joe: And Tim: Were Joe: Was it. Tim: Scrambling in the beginning of if we could be classified as essential or not, and my belief is that the immune system is something that can really be strengthened. I'm more passionate about terrain versus the germs so we can strengthen our terrain, strengthen our immune systems, both defense and offense. I mean, there's incredible science behind simple nutrients like sand, mucus from elderberry. The University of Sydney showing the prevention which with elderberry prevention of viruses entering the cell. I mean, it's some pretty cool science. So at the beginning of the covid thing, it was like, OK, I'm not going to tell anybody I can cure or prevent Joe: Mm hmm. Tim: Whatever, but I'm sure as heck going to yell it from the rooftop that you can strengthen your immune system and a strong immune system. Strong health is the best defense against any disease, virus, sickness anywhere. So I got pretty passionate about that a year ago. Joe: Cool. Yeah, that's great. So I'm normally pretty good at not bouncing around, but in this case, I want to go back to when you decided to do this. You know, obviously when when someone gets released from a corporate environment and they're like, oh, my gosh, I don't have control over my own destiny because these people Tim: The. Joe: Just literally rip the rug out from underneath me, which is another thing that a lot of entrepreneurs know because this is how they got to where they are there that happen to them. Like I'm not letting someone else dictate how my life is going to turn out. Right. So Tim: Yeah. Joe: But what's really crazy is I don't know if it if in Wisconsin or the places where you have these stores, obviously we know that you already brought it up at GNC is a big brand around the country. There's also where we are. There's the vitamin store. Right. Are the stuff that one of those Tim: Yeah, Joe: Is a vitamin Tim: Yeah, Joe: Shopper. Tim: Yeah. Joe: So there's a lot of these places. So it's almost like you saying you and Becky going, oh, yeah, we're going to create the next pizza delivery like pizza Tim: Now, Joe: Delivery Tim: There's already Joe: Franchise. Tim: 10 right around Joe: Yeah, Tim: The corner, Joe: Right. Tim: So let's see number 11, yeah. Joe: Right. It's we're going to be the next Pizza Hut or Papa John's or whatever. It's just like that that industry Tim: Yes, Joe: That's it takes a lot Tim: It's Joe: Of guts. Tim: So competitive. Joe: Yeah. So when you thought about it, as all entrepreneurs, do, we always come up with these ideas and then we sometimes will kill our own ideas without our spouse or partner or someone will say they'll be the sensible one and say Tim: Right, Joe: That's Tim: Right, Joe: Never Tim: Yeah. Joe: Right. But then you have all these outside influences of of friends and things. And, you know, at any moment, if you would have said, hey, we're thinking of opening up a vitamin supplement, healthy sort of Tim: John. Joe: That people would look at you. But what about all of these major brands? So tell me about how you got over the hump to make to pull the trigger. Tim: Yeah, do that's such a good question and, you know, to identify and I had some friends who opened a coffee shop, you know, and a year later, you know, the coffee shops not doing so well is unfortunate with covid timing and everything. And it's like the supplement thing where you, like, hear this and you're like, oh, I don't know, you know, I wish him well, but I don't know if that's going to work because it's just like there's a hundred of them, you know. Joe: Right. Tim: So I think for me what happened was I worked for GNC for, I don't know, five years. And you start to see good stuff. You start to see bad stuff, you start to see their model. They were purchased by China a while back. So, OK, it's all sourced from China. Forms of nutrients are in their synthetic forms or not so absorbable forms. And you start to learn like, OK, a better product would help this person more than this form of curcumin that's not absorbing into their system from China or wherever, you know, so you start to see where you could make a difference and you sort of start to see your difference makers. So in the supplement world, there's two veins of supplement stores. There's the type of stores that are all about muscle gain and weight loss, you know, weight loss, thermogenic high caffeine, ephedra, and then trim and tracks Hydroxycut. And a lot of that isn't super healthy for Joe: Hmm. Tim: People to be taking steroids or pro hormones, you know, not super healthy. So that's like one vein of supplement stores. And then there's another vein of supplement stores that just they sourced from China. They use synthetic nutrients. It's a little bit more about margin and profit than it is about quality and making a difference. And so that is something I realized pretty early on. And there's not too many supplement health food stores that have a lot of knowledge where you walk in. And there's not just like a high schooler selling the huge jug of protein because it gets a two dollar commission on it, you know. Joe: Yes, I do know. Tim: Yeah, yeah. And there's just not a lot of those out there. So then all of a sudden starting to dream about, you know, originating from my mom's story where somebody really helped her out, where I can really make a difference, because if I open my own stores or store at the time, I can bring in some of the best brands in the world. And pretty quick, in any industry, you find out, good, better, best. And I want to be in that best category. And all of a sudden you're working with some of the best brands in the world and you have the knowledge to be a to guide somebody with Crohn's disease. Let's just Joe: Mm hmm. Tim: Talk over asthma on natural alternatives that really work. And if you impact them, if you help them, if you change their life a little bit for the better, now they're going to keep coming back forever. And they tell everybody they know because there's such a vacuum, such a desperate need in this day and age for knowledgeable resources in the natural alternative space. We have a ton of medical, we have a ton of pharmaceutical drugs. We just don't have information coming to the general public on natural alternatives that work. And I get to be that resource in Madison, Wisconsin. So I think that's why we have done well in our brick and mortar stores. And I think that's probably why our attention is higher for our e-commerce is because of that customer service, that knowledgeable resource, that going the extra mile to impact their lives. And I'll give you an example. A lady might hit our live chat from California and say, hey, I'm looking for a V12. Can you give me a recommendation? And then we might ask the question like, absolutely. Here's a couple of options. Do you mind if I ask while you're while you're taking V12? Oh, my doctor said because I have really low energy, I have nerve pain and my mental clarity and focus, I get like foggy brain all the time. So then all of a sudden we say, awesome, OK, I'm actually going to encourage the method in form of V12 because it absorbs much better than this sign form that I first sent you, because I really want you to feel the difference. And since you're feeling fatigued, a little brain fog, I'd love for you to consider this adrenal boost product that has adapted genic herbs in there, like Atul Gawande wrote Rodeo Mocca because ninety two percent of fatigue is related to your adrenal glands. So then you recommend that product. They get it. And this lady two months later goes, Oh my gosh, my energy is a little better, my focus is better, my stress is reduced, which I didn't even bring up. But that adrenal product helps with stress, too, I guess. Joe: Mm hmm. Tim: Then all of a sudden they're leaving a review like, wow, that wellness consultant, Ryan, he's one of our our wellness consultants. He really helped me out. And so it's a very different sort of dynamic than a typical GNC store, health food store, vitamin shop type experience. They're Joe: Huh? Tim: All great stores. I mean, I love Natural. Anywhere you can get them. So that was like our difference maker and that's why I thought I could make a go out of it. Joe: Ok, cool. I have so much to ask you now, because you keep opening up like Kansas. So. So before again, I, I want this stuff to be helpful for the entrepreneur. And then then we're going to help the consumers that listen to this. So how when you decided on doing this and said, OK, and let's pull the trigger, how did you figure out the place where you're going to open up store number one, that you do all that extensive, Tim: Oh, Joe: You know, Tim: Good question, yes. Joe: Traffic, you know, what's going to pop up around us? What Tim: You know, Joe: Is, you Tim: Find Joe: Know? Tim: Find a good broker, a real estate broker that can find you spaces. So I had a guy named Kent in Madison, Wisconsin, and he you don't have to pay these guys. You know, it's the landlord that pays them. Joe: Right. Tim: And so as a young entrepreneur about to, like, risk everything you had, that was really important for me to know. Like, I I still am shocked by that. Like, you can just call one of these guys, try to find a reputable one, find somebody that trusts that can make a good referral. And they do all this scouting for you. They send you all the reports and you don't pay a penny. You know, I am a bottom line at the end or something, but you don't pay a penny for this. They get paid from the landlord. So he was bringing me idea after idea after idea. And he had been in the industry for a long time. So he knew the city really, really well. And he was able to guide me through, hey, this has a really strong anchor. The anchor in Fitchburg was Joe: Yeah, Tim: Target. Joe: Yeah. Tim: It was a super, super target. So I was like, oh, learning about anchors are important, Joe: Yeah. Tim: Really important. So I tell you, if you're listening, like, look for some strong anchors, because that's really going to help you for traffic. Joe: And just for the listeners and the people that don't like it, like when they talk about like a small strip mall or a plaza or something like that or even in a in a mall small, an anchor is an anchor store. That is when they go in, there's a really good chance they're not going away like they are a big thing like Target or Wal-Mart Tim: Exactly. Joe: Or Nordstrom or whatever. So I just wanted to clear that up because I didn't know at one point. But I know when you're looking at retail space like that, you want to be surrounded by an anchor store that has been around forever and is not going away. Tim: Yes, and just to further drive that point home, we have for brick and mortar stores and the one that's doing like the worst is the one that doesn't have a strong anchor by it. So just get one with a strong anchor and then look at price points and definitely negotiate. So we had that broker that was able to help us out. He was able to negotiate tenant improvement. Our big deal when you're opening a store, because you you could use money towards the build out and you can ask landlords for that. So if, again, if you have a good broker and you tell them your story, what you're trying to build out, a lot of times you can get a number of things paid for by the landlord because they're about to ask you to sign a five year lease. Joe: Mm hmm. OK. So at this point, the four locations that you have, you are in a lease situation Tim: Yes, all for you Joe: At Tim: And I've Joe: Any Tim: Looked into purchasing. Joe: Ok, so there is yeah, that's my question. It's like when do you pull the trigger on saying, OK, I want to actually start to own some of these buildings are these spaces. And that's a huge job. That's that's really put your Tim: Yeah, Joe: Neck out. Right. Tim: So in all four, I looked at them and each one has a different story, the first one I looked into though, at the Fitchburg location, the buildings were not for sale. So I was like, all this is so cool. So I looked into it and it was seven million dollars for these two buildings because it's in a strong anchor, high traffic area. So it is difficult to buy the spot by the strong anchor Joe: Maha. Tim: Because it really it would have been risking I couldn't I couldn't do it. But then the idea next idea is like, well, maybe I should move locations now that my name is established, if I can buy a strip mall down the way or something like that. So that Joe: Te. Tim: Idea is in the back of my head. But then you move away from the strong anchors. That's Joe: Right. Tim: Been called me back. Joe: Right, cool. See, that was perfect because that was like all of the things that you have to consider and Tim: Right. Joe: It's yeah, that's a tough decision, man. That's a lot of money. Tim: It is, Joe: Yeah. Tim: Dude, I Joe: Yeah. Tim: Know and I have a buddy who owns a dentistry office and he Joe: We. Tim: Was able to purchase his location and it's awesome. He's about to pay it off after ten years. And I'm super excited. So Joe: Yeah. Tim: It is depends on the situation. Joe: Yeah, OK, so now let's get into what I consider in the world that you're in and I'm a huge fan of natural like I is, it's a there's a difference between naturopathic or is. Right. Is that pronounced correctly? Is that they say it Tim: Yeah, Joe: Now Tim: Naturopathic Joe: Or Tim: Medicine Joe: Or homoeopathic. Tim: Homoeopathy yupp homoeopathy Joe: Right. OK. Tim: And integrative medicine is kind of like medical and naturopathy together. Joe: Yep, yep, so Joel and my life partner went through a battle of breast cancer where she had some lymph nodes and luckily, you know, Tim: Giese. Joe: Through through chemo and radiation, she came out on the other side and everything's great. But Tim: Good. Joe: The big thing that she also had was she had a naturopathic doctor Tim: Hmm. Joe: That went that came from the cancer world. So the advantages is that he understood the treatment that was happening with the normal medicine and he knew what to give her to not take away from what she was doing with the chemo and radiation, but at the same time helped to keep her system built up and not offset any of that. So there was a perfect marriage between the two. And Tim: That's. Joe: I swear to this day, I feel like that was the reason that she was Tim: Wow. Joe: Fairly, fairly normal through the process, like we were doing 90 X and she was in the middle Tim: That's Joe: Of chemo Tim: All Joe: And radiation. Tim: Right. Joe: Yeah, it was ridiculous. So Tim: Dude, that's Joe: So Tim: Awesome. Joe: I'm a big fan of the naturopathic side of things and natural remedies and all of that. So Tim: Not the. Joe: So that's why this was a cool episode for me, because it's hard to talk with somebody that is in this niche that you're in without it being the big stores. And so my first question, because I got so many of them Tim: I Joe: First question and the first Tim: Love Joe: Question Tim: It. Joe: Is how do you become with all of the misinformation that's out Tim: The. Joe: In the world? Right. And this is what confuses all of us as consumers. You go to Amazon and you say, I need a B vitamin of Tim: Right Joe: Some B supplement. Tim: Now. Joe: And the habit is you you click on the five star rating, things that you want. You think that's going to be the best because people are taking their time to read it, which Tim: Yeah. Joe: I think there's enough Tim: What Joe: Conversation Tim: Did he. Joe: In the world that says that's not necessarily true. Tim: Right. Joe: And then you literally are just like throwing darts at a dartboard with Tim: I Joe: A blindfold Tim: Know that, Joe: On. So. Tim: I know. Joe: So how do you get through all the misinformation that you feel so confident enough that when you when you suggest something to a client that you haven't been taken advantage of by the misinformation, like Tim: Yeah, Joe: How do you get through Tim: Because. Joe: All of that stuff? Tim: A great question and even the reviews, if a company markets really well and they're incredible at marketing, they can get a billion, five star reviews and they can be like synthetic sourced from China, not NSF certification. So over the years, you start to be able to read between the lines and you start to be able to say, hey, this is B.S. over here. This is marketing. Only not met with quality. And like any industry, you start to learn the good, better and best. So there's a few things. So first and foremost, I think everybody needs somebody on their team. Like your wife has that naturopathic doctor now as a resource that she can probably shoot an email to or make an appointment with and ask these questions. I think everybody needs somebody on their team because most people have a medical doctor and beyond that and they might have a pharmacist. Right. And they're good to have on your team, but we need somebody with. Expertise, knowledge, history in the supplement space, because even a naturopathic doctor, they know way more than I do about the human body, about maybe. Yeah, just just how to treat maybe disease. Tim: Right. When you're in the supplement space, there is you get to deal with hundreds and hundreds of brands. And over the decades, which I think 18 years now, you start to find out what brands are good and trustworthy and which ones aren't because the FDA doesn't regulate all the supplements. So you can say whatever you want on the label about me, your romantic drink here, but you can say whatever you want and. FDA isn't going to necessarily nail you if you're lying, if your label is making false label claims and this happens, there was a clinic in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, where not real clinical, but where they took products from a number of stores, GNC, Walgreens, Wal-Mart and Target. They took supplements from those four stores and then they had them tested at Chavannes and it was Chavannes Labs. And all four of them had discrepancies with what the label said and what was actually in the capsule. And one product was an Asia product, which is good for the immune system. And it had zero percent echinacea in there and a little bit of garlic like Joe: Oh, Tim: What Joe: My Tim: The H Joe: Gosh. Tim: Now? Yeah. So that exactly what you said. It's shooting in the dark. Is it marketing that's producing these reviews? Is it quality? Is it going to help me? Is it a waste of my money? Am I being sold. Right. So there's all those questions and the privilege that I'm so thankful for is just being submersed in the supplement world long enough. You learn a couple of things. So sourcing is vital. Where is it coming from? There is vitamin C that you can get our China, that there's some concerns there with chemicals, heavy metals, arsenic, or you can get vitamin C from Scallan, which happens to have a really rich ascorbic acid form of vitamin C clean, great place to source it from. So where a product is sourced from is really important. Number two is does the brand have NSF certification? So NZDF C, GMP grade facilities that they work with, which they're paying money to NSF to a third party test and ensure that they're having all of these practices that are healthy for supplements, they're sourcing their cleanliness. Has it been tested? Is it clean? Those questions? And NSF doesn't care about the company. They care about the reputation. So there sure as heck going to just that's a good certification is trusted in the supplement world to ensure that what's on the label is actually in the product. Tim: So sourcing No. One, NSF, GMP certification, number two and number three, which all of these take some sort of expertise or having somebody on your your team. You know, that's why I say to have somebody on your team first. But number three is the forms of nutrients. So E 12, which I gave the example earlier, Psion Kabalan and B 12 is synthetic. So your body has to convert it and you lose a lot of the content in that conversion versus a methyl form B 12, which is the natural form that your body absorbs really, really well. So four items, number one and two, saucing and NSF, you can have a very clean form of sign Kabalan and B 12 source, very clean. You could have NSF facility ensuring that you have that 50 micrograms of cyanide Kabalan B 12 in the B complex. But then it would take some expertise to know, like, OK, that's fine, that's good. But we would prefer a methyl form would be 12 because it absorbs so much better Joe: Mr.. Tim: And every single nutrient. This blows my mind because every single nutrient has good, better, best. You know, whether you're talking about vitamin C, ascorbic acid, sodium ascorbic calcium ascorbic B 12, which I'm talking about the six paroxetine hydrochloride versus toxified phosphate turmeric. You can get the the turmeric that colors your Indian curry orange and you can take that capsule and it's good for you. It just doesn't do very much for inflammation unless you extract the curcumin out and then even that doesn't have a good absorption rate. So blending it with the turmeric, essential oils and the sunflower lecithin launch the absorption where it's literally absorbing two hundred to five hundred times better than the turmeric Indian spice that you started with. And that's the form of ninety five. That's the form that Baylor University of Texas is using to literally treat cancer and chronic pain with incredible results. I mean, the cancer story is very cool. Inflammation is the root of the root system of cancer. Joe: Mm, huh. Tim: So that's an example where it's like oh man form so saucing, NZDF, GMP, great facility forms of nutrients. Those are the big three that you want to look at to know quality. Right. So that's what I always tell somebody, find somebody that you can trust. So for you guys, it might be your your doctor that your wife worked with for in Madison, Wisconsin. A lot of people trust the healthy place to help guide them, know we don't do commission so that we can just recommend what's best so Joe: Right. Tim: People can use that live chat feature on our website to just ask those questions. But find a health food store maybe that is trustworthy in your home town, that you do meet a job like my mom met John Joe: Mm hmm. Tim: Or find a store like mine that you can connect with and you can go to when health strikes, health problems strike because everybody has some conditions, some problem, something, even if it's something as simple as fatigue, you know. Ninety two percent of fatigue is related to your adrenal glands. You can strengthen your adrenal glands and you can have more vibrant energy every day. And people just don't know that. So they keep reaching for the coffee or the soda or the caffeine pills, what have you. So get somebody on your team that you can trust. Joe: So go. So you said at one point in this conversation that do you have over 4000 Tim: Products, yeah. Joe: Excuse now, right? OK, so let's just take that as an example. It's a full time job for someone like you to be the Tim: Yes. Joe: Gatekeeper Tim: Yeah. Joe: Of your of the healthy place. You have to be the gatekeeper to say, yes, this comes into our door and gets put on ourselves or in our e-commerce store or Tim: The. Joe: No, this doesn't meet the criteria. So to me, it feels like it's continuing education and literally a full time job for whoever that person. Let's just say it's you at the moment that Tim: Yeah. Joe: Is the person that says yay or nay on these products. So it's just mind boggling what is out there and what you have to do to sort of educate yourself to to say, yes, this makes the cut, not only doesn't make the cut, but it's in a product. It's not a product and not a C product, you Tim: Yeah, Joe: Know what I mean? Tim: You're Joe: So. Tim: Absolutely right. And it's like reading a book, though, you don't want to minimize what I do, it's like it's not hard for you to read English, you know, after you've learned it. But if you're learning a new language, it looks like totally confusing. Overwhelming can take me forever to learn this language. And it might take some years to learn it. Once you have that language mastered, it's just like reading a book, you know, Joe: Yeah. Tim: You just check the boxes, right. OK, where is the source from NSF? GMP, what's the forms of these nutrients? Because you start to learn and then you have experts that you follow. A lot of people smarter than me that I follow. Dr. X, Dr. While, Dr. Whitaker, Dr. Northrup. And you start Terry Lambrew and you start to follow these gurus in the southern industry that have been there for 40 years, that know so much more than you. And you're reading their literature, listening to their podcasts. They're the symposiums around the planet that are going on for this breakthrough, that breakthrough. You get the subscriptions right to the. So I just tell everyone, get plugged in at least where you're getting encouraged on a regular basis to own your health, build your terrane strength in your health and all the ways that you can inspire yourself on a regular basis and then get somebody on your team that you can trust to help guide you in the space, because it is a new language, right? Joe: It's nuts, it's just it's so frustrating. Did a three month vegan plan Tim: Nice. Joe: Because Tim: Yeah. Joe: I'm not vegan, but I loved it like it was good for me. But I Tim: Yeah. Joe: Actually I actually, in the process, lost a lot of muscle mass because I was also going always going to the gym. But all of a sudden I started to shrink both, Tim: Right, Joe: You Tim: Like, Joe: Know. Tim: No. Joe: So, yes, I'm like, I'm doing all this hard work. And it's just I needed to get on a B 12 vitamin of something. And it's funny because I don't even know what I'm taking, but it's something that I got from Amazon and Tim: Your Joe: I Tim: I can do it. I've been assigned to general Joe: I'm sure. Tim: Check that Joe: So Tim: After Joe: I'm going Tim: The program. Joe: To look when yeah. When we're done, I'm going to look and then I'm going to and then I'm going to say I need a direct line to Tim in Tim: There Joe: The Tim: We Joe: Chat Tim: Go. Joe: Room. Tim: Yeah. Joe: So have you ever thought of franchises? Tim: I have, I Joe: And Tim: Have. Joe: And I'm Tim: You Joe: Just interested you don't have to you don't have to Tim: Know, Joe: Say to. Tim: I'm so I am very interested and I have been kicking that ball around in my head for a long time because we are we specialize in education, right. So you got to find ways to duplicate yourself in a franchise. And so we created a three month curriculum that our wellness consultants have to go through. They have to pass quizzes and tests and they have to get certifications from this company, this company and MKB certification, all the enzyme certifications to understand the industry, know what questions to ask customers and how to make recommendations. So that's one of the hardest things that we've done that would make it more easy to duplicate the knowledge side of our company and our brand. And as I've talked to people who have created franchises, the the legal side to it is one hurdle and then enforcing them to actually maintain your model as representing the healthy place. What we have created is the two big unknowns for me as far as difficulty. So then the choice came, should we just keep adding brick and mortars in our own territory? Right, right. In the Madison area and then put all of our energy and focus into our brands that we've created and our website because there's infinite you can do in the business world and you kind Joe: Mm Tim: Of Joe: Hmm. Tim: Have to choose. Joe: Yeah. Tim: So we decided to park the franchise idea for now and really go after lively vitamin CO. This is one of the brands that have been borne out of our brick and mortar stores. So now we're selling that to other health food stores around the country. And the number two is build find your healthy place dotcom, because just like Amazon is a freakin mammoth, there's so much opportunity to impact and power and educate everything that I'm passionate about on that website. So currently with four kids, we are chilling on the franchise idea. But I think it's brilliant because there's not there's not the option out there, which is why it keeps coming back to me Joe: Yeah, Tim: Like Joe: Yeah. Tim: There's not that many health food stores out there that really care. Soulsby for sales. You know, as one of my Joe: Mm Tim: Saying Joe: Hmm. Tim: That, Joe: I Tim: I really Joe: Love that, by the way, I love that. Tim: Thank you. Thank you. There is a time I was praying and it was like not I it going to make my friggin mortgage. When I first opened the store, I was praying to God for sales and I was like, God to declare bankruptcy here is brutal. And it was like an arrow is like, do you care about their soul as much as you care about the sales? Joe: Yeah. Tim: And it was kind of striking. So, yeah, there's not that many stores out there that really care about the human that have knowledge to help guide them and a model that works to help people, you know. So it's still an idea that keeps coming back to me. So Joe: Right. Tim: We'll see. Joe: Yeah, well, good luck if it happens, I'm sure it'll be great. Tim: Thank you. You see one popping up next door, you'll know where to get your V12. Joe: There you go. So you hit upon this a moment ago with the whole franchising thing of how to actually create this template and create a strict thing where where the people that are talking to your customers are very educated and they're giving the right information and asking the right questions. So how have you done that with the people that are at your current stores and how have you done that with the people that are on the other end of the chat? When somebody files in to ask these questions, Tim: Yeah, so. Joe: How do you get something like when is somebody OK? You're ready to take a call, you're ready to be on the chat, you're ready to to advise a customer in the store, like, what's that process? Tim: Yeah, Joe: And you don't Tim: So. Joe: Have to go too deep. I just Tim: No, Joe: I Tim: No, Joe: But Tim: That. Joe: I'm sure somebody is going to say, like, hey, Tim, super educated on this. So every time I talk, like I just said, you know what I call him on the chat, I want him, you Tim: Right. Joe: Know. So Tim: Right. Joe: How to how do you duplicate Tim so that everyone that's coming in on the chat or walking in the store says this is just a clone of Tim like he may. He's already run them through the ringer, you know? Tim: Yeah, that's so the three month curriculum that we created is our pride and joy. I'm so thankful for that. It was brutal to create. So I created one hundred videos, having a five minute conversation where I'm explaining different parts of the world and explaining brands and what to look for and how to explain it. And then we'll go through they'll have to pass quizzes and tests based on each module. So there's nine different modules to this curriculum. They have to go through trainings with specific companies. They have to do a number of roleplaying activities with our managers where they pretend to be the customer Joe: Mm Tim: And Joe: Hmm. Tim: Coming in, hey, I'm looking for some CBDs. What do you got? And so they get tested there and they have to get these certifications from each of these brands, so they have to pass it. So there's one guy who got to the end and he is like, OK, dude, we got to rewind because you're not retaining this stuff. So either you did the last minute cramming for this quiz the night before. And like I didn't I did that in high school. Joe: Ok. Tim: And then you don't retain it, right. Joe: Yeah. Tim: So do you really care about this or not? So he had to start over. He had to go through it again. So it's a team. We have a leadership team of five. And so we have these nine modules, the quizzes, the tests. They have to pass them. They have to do the role playing. And then the leadership team of five will say, OK, this person's ready or they're really not ready. And there's still a couple of parts of our team where we're like, OK, where they can be a wellness consultant in the store, but we don't think they're ready to be on live chat. So then we'll wait maybe six months until they have a little bit more experience, because where our team learns the most is from the customers coming in asking the questions and they don't know the answers of how to treat colitis Joe: Mm Tim: With Joe: Hmm. Tim: Whatever. So then they have to go find out to get back to that customer and then they learn something. So right now, I'm proud to say our live chat feature on our website, if you go to find your other place, dotcom lower, right. You get that little live chat bubble, the seven different consultants that you might run into over there are, I wouldn't say clones of Tim because I think they're smarter than me, but they are really well equipped and able to match, kind of hit the mark of where they need to be. And they all know and are passionate enough about helping people to not. One of the first things that I'll tell them is, dude, never bullshit. Joe: Yeah, yeah. Tim: That's a real thing. And I came from a I won't say anything negative where it's just more about getting the sale, about getting that commission. And and that's part of why we don't do commissions. So it's a fun process for intense. Joe: Well, that's great, man. Yeah, so I want to respect your time. We're down to the wire. I want to make sure I didn't miss anything that you want to talk about. So you have four stores in Wisconsin. Tim: Madison, Joe: Correct. Tim: Wisconsin, the. Joe: Ok, and you have the website Tim: Find your healthy place, Dotcom. Joe: Buying your healthy place, Dotcom. Anything else that I missed that is important that we talk about? Tim: You know, dude, I mean, as I was thinking about this program and your followers, like what your mission is, you're trying to encourage entrepreneurs, trying to encourage people to be thankful for life. You don't Joe: Mm Tim: Take Joe: Hmm. Tim: To treat life like the gift it is, you Joe: Yep. Tim: Know? So I did want to offer your followers a coupon code. If they don't have you know, if you have a health food store in your own home town, that's great sport. Those guys, if you have somebody on your team, that's awesome. That's my main passion. And if you need a resource that you can trust, if you go to find your healthy place dotcom and you get something type in coupon code, Castelo, and that'll give 30 percent off the full price on anything on our whole website, we have thousands of products. So anything from V12 to something more intense. And regardless if you buy something or not, use that live chat feature to ask questions. You know, I've had people call my cell phone bill. Hey, Jim, you know, I'm in Wholefoods right now and I'm looking at three different multivitamins. Like which one do you think I should get? You know, and I get to tell them and it's fun and you can share the love. And so use that live chat feature as a resource, because more than ever, dude, we need natural alternatives. We need some education we at least need to know about, like Joel and your Joe: Yeah, Tim: Life partner. Dude, Joe: Yeah. Tim: What if she didn't have that naturopathic doctor that gave her some natural supplements through one of the most intensive crisis's that she ever faced in her life? Like, you know, in your gut that that helped her in a dramatic way because you watched her do P ninety three, the cancer experience. Joe: Yeah. Tim: I mean, that's a miracle, dude. And it took somebody reaching out and it took a resource being willing to respond to create that miracle, you know. And so that's what I want for people. Joe: Yeah, it's I can't stress it enough that Tim: Right. Joe: What I saw before my very eyes every single Tim: Right. Joe: Day and it would and then I see people that are going through cancer of some type and they're only being treated, Tim: As Joe: You know, Tim: A medical doctor, yeah. Joe: And they're their body is just being crushed. Tim: Yes. Joe: And there's and there's nothing, no nothing helping to offset the chemicals and all of the harshness Tim: Know. Joe: Of that treatment. And so. Tim: Right, and let me say, you know, you saw it with somebody you loved very much, I saw it with my mom when I was five or six. And since then, I'm getting goosebumps. I have seen it for thousands of people through the last 11 years that the healthy place has been a company, thousands of people, not always cancer, but but we're talking depression, chronic pain, Crohn's disease, asthma, like people suffering like megacorp. There's so much suffering going on Joe: Mm hmm. Tim: In the world and there is natural alternatives that people literally don't know about. They have nobody in their world telling them. So they just listen to whatever mainstream media or their medical doctor Joe: Yeah. Tim: Or their pharmacist. And there's a lot of good people with good intent in those areas. It's just there's not the voice of natural alternatives. So we need to know about this stuff. We've got to get the word out. Joe: Yeah, it's great, man, I love what you're doing, and this Tim: Think. Joe: Was exciting for me and and I think I actually have your personal email, so I'm just going Tim: That's Joe: To I'm Tim: Awesome. Joe: Going to go I'm going to go ten. I need Tim: You Joe: More Tim: Should. Joe: Energy, Tim. I think I think I have inflammation. And I'm going Tim: Yeah, Joe: To be like. Tim: I know you should, and if anyone's listening to and they because sometimes, you know, they just have a trust factor or whatever, Tim at Find Your Healthy Place Dotcom. I am happy to take emails. This what I get to do all day, dude, and it's just fun. It's so rewarding. You just get to point people in the right direction and help them out. So I love it. Joe: I wish you all the luck in the world, this is a Tim: Thank you. Joe: This is a great thing that you're doing. It's nice to have somebody who is, like you said, it's it's Soulsby before sales. It's a great it's a great way to do it. And I think Tim: Thank Joe: You'll be Tim: You. Joe: Rewarded continually be rewarded for doing Tim: Thank Joe: It that Tim: You. Joe: Way. I'll put everything in the show notes. Thank you for the coupon for the listeners Tim: Now. Joe: And I'll make sure I have all the correct links. So find your healthy place. Dotcom is the website. The company's name is the Healthy Place for locations in Madison, Wisconsin. You eventually might franchise someday, Tim: Yes, Joe: But Tim: And people on Facebook, you know, Joe: Yeah. Tim: The healthy people on Facebook, my wife's a genius as far as really caring for our community there. So you'll find a lot of good content and Instagram as well. So thank you, dear. This Joe: Yeah, Tim: Is. Joe: Tim, thanks so much, man, I really appreciate your time today and thanks for all the insight and I really do wish you the best of luck. Tim: Any time, brother, and wish the same to you. Joe: Thank you, Matt. Tim: I hope you enjoyed this episode, and I want to thank you for listening to my podcast. I know you have many options to listen to various podcasts, and I'm honored that you chose to listen to mine. I would love it if you were to rate my podcast Five Stars and write a nice review. It really helps to bring up the rankings of the podcast. Other listeners, once again, thank you so much for listening to the Joe Costello show. I appreciate you very much.

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Care vs. Caretaking

Play Episode Listen Later Jun 18, 2021 42:17

What is wrong with making people feel better? When some of us think of codependency, we think of alcoholism or addiction but it can affect our lives in subtle ways both personally and professionally. Today we are going to talk about the difference between care and caretaking."If it ever crosses your mind that the person can't handle what you are going to say to them, what you want to say to them, if you ever think they are too weak or incapable, those absolutely are key indicators that you are in it, that you are in the caretaking side of things."What is wrong with making people feel better? When a lot of us think of codependency, we think of alcoholism or we think of addiction, a lot of the extreme examples, but co-dependency is something we really do a lot in our daily lives, and this happens in very subtle ways in relationships, personally and in business. Today we are going to talk about the difference between care and caretaking. Joe, today, I want to talk about something we have all dealt with before, which is a really common scenario where you want to make somebody feel better, and you think that this is going to help. You do something specifically with a goal of making them feel better, and it actually ends up making things worse in the long run. We have talked about that in your courses, and we have labeled it with the term caretaking, which sounds a lot like care. People think about care as a good thing, and then caretaking becomes this thing that is disempowering. What is caretaking? How did you come to this as a concept worthy of inquiry?Joe: Semantically speaking, you could call it co-dependence or caretaking, and just for the sake of this conversation, let's make caretaking the side that is in the lexicon as co-dependence, more on that co-dependence side, and caring for being something that's not in that camp. That's how I use the words, so I just want to define that for everybody who is listening. If you heard, I was laughing as soon as you were talking about wanting to make somebody feel better because that's actually the way I would define the difference between caring for somebody and caretaking somebody. It is the idea that you are trying to manage their experience, and this gets particularly dangerous when you are managing their experience for your experience. For example, the wife who comes home and is doing everything she possibly can to make sure her husband doesn't get mad at her. Is she doing that to manage her husband's emotions? Or is she doing that to manage her own emotion? Is she trying to avoid fear? Or is she trying to avoid his anger? If she is trying to avoid his anger, just for him, what would be the purpose of that? What would be wrong with letting somebody be angry? People get angry all the time. Humans are meant to get angry. All mammals have moments of anger. What would make you want to stop you if it is to try to manage your own experience?That's where co-dependence of in this case what we are calling caretaking is. It is when you are trying to manage another person's emotions through what we call care to make it so that you don't have to experience your own emotional situation. You don't have to experience something you don't want to experience. Brett: In a sense, it is taking care of yourself. For example, that wife, maybe what she is avoiding is being attacked in anger by somebody larger than her, and so she is trying to make him feel better, trying to manage his experience, trying to tiptoe around the lava in order to prevent her experience from deteriorating or going in a direction she doesn't want. Joe: That's exactly it. I'll give you an example. I had a woman come to me and she was talking about this exact same situation. She was talking about how my husband gets angry at me, and I don't know what to do and there's nothing I can do. It was very much that she was not capable of changing her reality because she had this angry husband. She genuinely felt that. This wasn't something like her mind was wanting to be a victim in this way. It was generally she felt trapped. That's the feeling she was having. I said, ah, BS, you like it. She didn't like me saying that very much, obviously. I got a smile out of it. She looked perplexed. I said tell me what would happen if every time he started getting angry, you just got up and walked out. You just consistently did this for let's call it 10 weeks. Every time he started losing his cool, you just got up and walked out. How long would he still be yelling at you? How would this work for him if this anger thing that he does stopped working? What if every time he yelled at you, you were like yeah, baby, I like to see your anger? Give me some more. Tell me how angry you are. Tell me how frustrated you are. You have nothing to be ashamed of. I can accept your anger. If you did that for 10 weeks, how long would it be that he was getting angry at you? Obviously, I am not talking about if he is hitting her. If he is hitting her or being physically abusive or mentally abusive, that's not a relationship you want to be in. Even if you are in that situation, leaving is a far better situation than trying to make them feel better because you are just telling them that this works. If I get angry, you will stop being yourself and you will try to manage my experience, which gives me all the power in the relationship. That's what co-dependence is. That's what care taking is. You are trying to make someone else feel better so you don't have to feel it. That's an extreme version of it, but there's everyday versions of this too. The most obvious one that you see is somebody sad. Somebody else says it will get better. What makes you want to take away their sadness? Is it that you don't want to feel their sadness? Is it that you don't want your own sadness? What's the problem with them being sad? Sad is beautiful. Good cries are amazing things for people. Is it because your mom and dad told you not to cry for 20 years? And so now you are just doing whatever you can to make sure you never have to hear tears. That's co-dependence. On the other side of the equation, caring for is when you are moving, not out of any desire to change the person. Your desire is just simply to relish and enjoy the feeling of caring for somebody. It is an unbelievable joy to care for somebody. It is just a great experience to have, but you are not trying to change them in any way. Their reaction to your care is completely unimportant. The way you can tell internally that you are in one or the other is resentment. Caretaking eventually will lead to resentment in you. You will start resenting the person, and they will start resenting you because they have no choice but to resent you because you are treating them like they are kids. You are treating full adults like I have to manage your emotions. I have to make sure you don't get upset. I have to make sure you are not sad. Eventually the person is like screw off. I am capable. I can take care of my own emotions. What makes you think you are better than me? That's the reason. Then the person who is caretaking is like look, I've given you all this stuff. I am sacrificing myself every day for you. I am not speaking my truth. I am trying to position my truth for you in such a way that you can hear it, and you are angry at me. Forget you, then. This is the rigmarole that people put themselves through instead of just I am speaking my truth to you, and that's my responsibility. Your responsibility is to have whatever emotional reaction you want to have to it. I am not going to try to change that. Brett: What about situations where the person really is dependent in some way, for example a child or an elderly or sick relative? To some extent, you want to care for them, and to some extent, you resent it also. But if you don't, you are not okay with the alternative of them being left completely on their own. How would you pick apart the care and caretaking in that situation? How do we know the difference?Joe: There are so many of these that are very different from one another. They are very different from one another. A child is very different than an alcoholic father, which is very different than a mother who is bipolar, which is very different than somebody who is developmentally disabled. All of those are very different things. Everybody likes to clump them all in. Basically, them clumping any of this in together is saying wait a second, I don't want to stop being a caretaker because then I will have no control. What will my life be without control, which, by the way, is the same reason the abuser, or the bully, or the yeller is saying I am not going to stop yelling because then I have no control. Everybody has got their control in different ways. Behind that question is mostly that. Behind that kind of question is wait a second, there are people I really have to take care of, and behind that is mostly that fear of losing the control that one does have. For instance, with a drug addict, there's whole rooms of Al Anon built to teach those living with addicts how to take care of themselves and not take care of the addict. That one is an easy one. That one is a complete illusion. When I say it is a complete illusion, what I want to say is not that the person is bad or ignorant. They might be ignorant, but they are not bad. It's actually they just can't see through it. They have been trained their whole life to take care of people emotionally. They think it is their job. It is very hard for them to see outside of that thing. But with children, on the other hand, you actually do have quite a responsibility to take care of kids, and yet a lot of people care take kids. Don't cry, Billy. That's a perfect example of it. The only way you can really tell when you are at the difference is when your resentment starts building when you are trying to manage their experience so you don't have to deal with a certain feeling you are having. Brett: Back to the kid or the addiction example, this is where a lot of these topics get the response from people. This sounds really great in theory. This is probably true for a lot of people, but my situation is dire. If I, for example, don't care of my addict brother, then the next thing that might happen is that he dies of an overdose. That happens for real all the time. And so like somebody may be like no, I absolutely cannot accept the possibility of my brother dying of an overdose, so I need to do at least the minimum of caretaking or care or enabling that should at least keep him alive. That can make this really, really difficult to pull apart. A lot of people always feel like their situation is different. Their situation is not the textbook case. Theirs is actually they are trapped. What advice would you have for somebody who feels that way? They feel resentment and they also feel like they have no other choice. Joe: I would say first look at the other choices you have, and really ask yourself the question. For example, with the addict, if I don't pay for this addict to live, then they will be homeless. If I don't take care of them, then they will die of a drug overdose. What makes you think they are going to not die of a drug overdose or not go homeless if you are taking care of them? How does that work in your brain? Do you think that every single person who has a drug overdose is because their brother/sister/mother/father stopped caring for them? Do you think that every one of them that's homeless is because they stopped caring for them? Taking a look at the other side of your logic and deconstructing it is an incredibly important tool. The evidence that I have seen is that the caretaking drives the person into the addiction further, and there's evidence of this where the alcoholics who have the hardest time to break alcoholism are the people who have independent wealth, and they have nobody particularly depending on them. They have no bottom to hit to get out of it. Most of the time the co-dependence is just making it so the person doesn't hit their bottom. You are actually hurting them. You are again trying to avoid somebody from feeling pain so that you don't have to feel the loss of your loved one. If you were being honest with yourself, and here's the trick, feel the loss. Feel the loss before you even make your decision. I am not saying stop or stop. Just feel the loss. If I stop this, they are going to die. Feel your person's death, mourn it, go all the way through it so that you are making decisions that are based on what's best for them, not because you are trying to avoid the grief. Brett: That was a really good point you brought up there about hitting the bottom. A lot of these difficult emotions, their purpose is for us to feel them so they can teach us the lessons they are meant to be teaching. If you are protecting somebody else from feeling their emotion and receiving their lesson while also using that as a tool to avoid yourself feeling the difficult emotion and learning your lesson, then you really can't get out of the pattern. Joe: Yeah, and take a look at it the other way. Occasionally, I get to meet these beautiful people who have dedicated their life to caring for a mother or a father who is passing or a child who has such bad disabilities they can't leave their wheelchair. They have dedicated their life to these people in a way that's healthy. There is a care for. You can spot them a while away. The reason you can is because they have just gotten so soft and their heart is so big. There's a way in which they have used this experience of caring for somebody to dissolve themselves, to sandpaper their edges. They are just soft people. I don't mean soft like not strong. They are far stronger than most people. I mean soft as in they are not rigid. If that's happening to you, it is a pretty good indicator that you are in the caring for camp. Then there are other people even if they are caring for those same people but more likely they are caring for an addict or they are caring for somebody who is abusive to them, and they feel like they can't get out of it. They are not getting softer. They are getting more and more neurotic. They are getting more and more spun up over the years. They are losing friends. They are becoming more isolated. That's another way. In the long term, that's another way to tell the difference between which camp you are in. Is it softening you up? Is your heart getting bigger? Is there less resentment or is there more resentment and more feeling of trappedness and more spinning?Brett: Let's talk a little bit more about some of those subtle forms because it is pretty common to talk about alcoholism or some of the deeper forms of co-dependence. For many people, I think that just feels like a separate category. I don't have these problems. That's not in my life. My life is great. Everything is good. Then just not seeing that there are always. There's only an asymptotic reduction of these habits it seems over time. Everybody does at least a small amount of it, and most people are doing some amount of it. In a romantic relationship, for example, how can you identify the smaller forms of subtle caretaking that are occurring and co-dependence and transform that into care?Joe: I had a friend once, and he had a strong faith. It was a Catholic faith. He was a sweetheart of a human. One day he came to me and he said I have a hard time, Joe, knowing when I am supposed to take care of myself and when I am supposed to take care of others. I said to him wow, so your God is a masochist. Brett: Explain. Joe: What I am saying is if your God has set up a world where it is binary, where it is either self-love or the love of another, then the design that this God has created is one that's masochistic. It is one that is to torture. It is not the way that I see the world working at all. What I see is the thing that is true in us is the compassionate treatment of ourselves and is also the compassionate treatment of the person across from us. Now, everyone says what's best for me is I just want to go out and drink, but I've got to take care of my kid. Is going out and drinking or partying really what's best for you? I am talking about what's really best for you and what's really best for them. Somebody says what's really best for them is if I am really nice and take care of them. Is that what's really best for them? Or is what is really best for them to learn how to be independent, for them to be told the truth? That's the overarching way that I look at this is that the most compassionate thing you can do for yourself is also the most compassionate thing you can do for someone else. I see this all the time when somebody finally breaks through into this is what I want. When they are in a relationship where they are constantly caretaking somebody, and then they are like oh wow, this is what I want, I will almost always then ask the question and so what about that is not the most compassionate thing for the person you have been caretaking. Brett: That gets almost into a different topic of what is the deeper want. You might think that what you want is just to keep the peace, the harmony in the relationship or not to get yelled at or not have somebody be sad at you. Is that what you really want? Do you really want to be authentic? I have run into this a number of times in my relationships. Joe: That's exactly right. How deep are you going to go down that want hole? How deep are you going to go down that compassion hole? If you are going to go down compassion to the place where everybody is nice to each other, this law doesn't work. But if you go down to the deepest level of compassion, which is I am willing to sacrifice our relationship for my love for you. I am willing to sacrifice what you think of me. I am willing to sacrifice this person, you, who I love because I know it is what's best for you. Then the law works. Then God isn't masochistic. But you asked a question, so I started with this story just so I could say when people are in the more gentle forms of caretaking each other, there[s some pretty easy signs. One is you notice that you are managing how you are going to say it. If you are worried about how you are going to say it so that the person across from you can hear it and accept it, and you have run over multiple solutions, multiple ways of talking to them in your head with the hopes that you are going to get it so that they will have a different reacting than they normally do, then you are definitely in it. Then you are definitely caretaking. Brett: I resonate with you. I have experienced a lot of times where I will have some issue or challenge in a relationship, and then I will go to a safe space to process it where they aren't present. It is not really vulnerable to them. I am just kind of doing the process with whatever my group is, and then I am like oh, okay, great, now I have gotten to my core want. I have gotten to my authenticity. I know what I want. Now, what's the way I can say it in a quick paragraph that I can hide behind and that will exactly get this point across without me messing it up or having to hold my ground in a sense or truly feel into myself in the moment. I think a lot of that comes from there being fear of constricting in the moment. This happens a lot of times where when you are away from the person you are having this challenge with, you feel relaxed. You feel open. You can feel the love for them. And then the moment you are with them, and perhaps you are being accused of something or there are emotions that are uncomfortable for you that are either being thrown at you or they are just coming up in the other person and they are uncomfortable for you, then we constrict. Then, all of a sudden, it seems we lose access to all of this stuff. Joe: Yeah, that's the trick in all of this work. All of this work is those moments of defensiveness, those moments of resistance, how do we fall in love with them? How do we fall into them? How do we open up and allow them to permeate us? The more felt sense of it is how we open up and let it permeate through us. That is the kinesthetic or the somatic experience. The other way to look at that is to say when I get in front of them, I am totally going to constrict and I am totally not going to say the right thing. Great, fantastic! That gives you practice. It is like the best batting cage in the world. You can even start the conversation and say hey, I am nervous that in the middle of this conversation, I am going to constrict and I am not going to bring my full, true self here. I don't want that. What I want is to love you with my full self. If you see me constricting, if you see me not being myself, please point it out to me, and just give me a couple minutes or seconds or whatever I need to get back to being able to bring my full truth to you. Brett: What about accusations or attacks that come as a consequence of speaking our truth in this way? It may be not just from the person that you stop caretaking, but it may be from your entire friends' group or your family or everybody around you. It may be normalized that what you are doing in this caretaking way is actually how you are supposed to be and if you are not doing this, you are a bad person. If you are not enabling your partner or we could talk about the addict again or we could talk about elderly parents, if you are not taking care of your elderly parents in a particular way and everybody around you is externalizing this guilt towards you, what's the way to process that?Joe: That's a good question. Before we get into that, there is something back that I want to touch back on, which is how you know when this is happening. We talked about a couple of the ways you can know it is happening, but there's a key one, which is if it ever crosses your mind that the person can't handle what you are going to say to them, what you want to say to them, if you ever think they are too weak or incapable, and/or if you feel like if I say this, they are going to fly off the handle at me, those are absolutely key indicators you are in, that you are in the caretaking side of things. If you think they are too weak, then basically you are treating them like they are weak, and they will get resentful. If you are scared of them getting angry, then they definitely have learned that getting angry gets them what they want, and you are delivering it for them. Those are just two other indicators that really let you know if you are in a relationship, that that's happening. When you get really attuned to this, you will notice. You said it is asymptotic. The way I would make that very real is that you will just notice how often, just listen. Go to the person you love. Listen very carefully to every sentence you are speaking to them. Notice how many of them are subtle excuses or subtle hedges, not completely owning yourself, not completely owning your experience, hedging it, shaving it so that they will think differently of you than what you are scared they are going to think of you. If you are scared about what somebody is going to think about you, and you are modifying your behavior in any way, that is a form of caretaking. It just gets more and more subtle. It is subtle until you see it. It just gets more and more subtle. *BELL SOUND* Okay, so this is the time in our podcast when we do something just a little bit different. We take a break from the intellect and incorporate our bodies and emotions into the conversation. We do this because it helps us integrate the information better and usually it is a bunch of fun. We crowdsource these exercises from our community so if you have a good one, please share it with us.When doing the exercise, take it as a treat and as an experiment. Just do the activity and see what happens. As always, enjoy yourself. *BELL SOUND* Tara: Hi, everybody. This is Tara. I am a coach who works with Joe. Come to a sitting position with your feet on the floor, and your hands on your lap facing palm up so your hands and your wrist are on your lap, palm up. You are going to keep your eyes open for this one. Go ahead and raise your hands so your upper arms are next to your body and your arms are bent at the elbow with your hands in front of you, your palms facing you. You are going to start shaking them. Your hands are shaking back and forth at the wrists. It is like your middle finger goes back and forth from the back arm to the front arm, and your hands are just going back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. You are going to do this for like 30 seconds. This is a Qi Gong move to calm the nervous system. Keep going. Keep shaking your hands at the wrist. You are going to take a deep inhale through your nose, and exhale slowly through the mouth with like pursed lips. Inhale with the nose, through the nose, and exhale through the mouth with pursed lips. Your hands will keep shaking. We will do one more inhale through the nose. Exhale through the mouth with pursed lips. You will stop shaking your arms, and you´ll put them back down on your lap. Just notice how you feel. *BELL SOUND*Joe: Welcome back. I hope you enjoyed the exercise as much as we did when we found it. Before we go back into the episode, I wanted to thank all of you who have been sharing the podcast and signing up for the VIEW course. The interest and support you guys have shown has been overwhelming and humbling. It is a pleasure to know we have something to offer that has been so helpful to you. Now, let's get back into the conversation. Brett: A lot of what we have been talking about seems like it is a one against one kind of situation where there is a person you are caretaking. But if you have, for example, a community, and you are concerned about what that community is going to think or how they are going to respond, then you are actually caretaking them as well as the entire situation. Joe: That's exactly right. That can happen in the workplace. I see this in workplaces all the time where you have a group of people, and they are just not speaking their truth to each other. This is death. If it is in manufacturing, it is not as much of a death. It just means you are giving up a massive advantage, but if you are in a tech or a creative, this is death where people can't speak their truth and feel really safe about it and be just blatant and be able to be wrong and for other people to say I don't think that's right and for having that open discussion. That's where great things happen. If you are going to be inventive or creative or do something out of the box, you need that. There are companies, back to your example, whether it be everybody wants you to take care of an alcoholic mom or everybody wants you to work from six am until 11 pm because that's what the company is doing. If you don't do it, you are going to suffer the consequences. Whatever that situation is, there is a real possibility that you will be ousted from the group. There's also an equally real possibility that you will force the healing of the group. Brett: Bringing that into a business context, there's a real tragedy of the commons-esque thing about this. If an entire group is slowly trending towards optimizing for harmony, optimizing for fitting in, if there's an unseen value around being a team player, you are staying as long as everybody is staying after work, and it is really getting to the point where it is not good for anybody individually. Then everybody also fears if they are the one to speak up about it, then they will be ostracized from the group, then they are allowing the entire group culture to deteriorate. Joe: And there's no leader, meaning there's somebody who is in charge, but there's no leadership happening. The healthy cultures are the ones where everybody is acting like a leader from time to time. If you mute people as the boss or if you, the employee, decide to be muted, you are killing leadership in the group because leadership comes from I am going to lead the way into a new place. You don't lead the way into the place you are at. You lead the way into the place that you have not been or that you are going to. The only way that happens is being the tip of the spear. That's how leadership works. You can't be the tip of the spear if the whole thing is optimizing for harmony and/or optimizing for competitiveness and/or optimizing for intelligence, even. Optimization is for what's happening right now, and that changes in business. And so the people have to change as well, and new places have to be led to. Brett: From a leadership standpoint, how would you apply that to accountability or discipline with regards to if there's an employee that's not meeting certain criteria? Maybe coworkers are trying to protect him because they like the employee, and so everybody hides each other's flaws or shortcomings. Joe: The question is how to hold them accountable. The idea that holding somebody accountable, particularly accountable with love could ever be a problem is a good determination that you are in co-dependence. If I am speaking my truth, I don't want to work with somebody who can't deliver on time or at least tell me why they can't deliver on time and tell me how they are going to compensate for it. My truth is I don't want to work with somebody like that. I also notice that people that work like that aren't happy with the way they work. It is not good for them, and it is not good for me. To own that want, and to say this is the reality I choose to live in, whether you are the boss or the employee is 100% acceptable. Now, if you say it to your boss and your boss gets pissed and you say it to your boss again, and they fire you, then you are going to get exactly what you asked for, which is a work situation in which people are reliable. If that's how you want to work, it is a good thing you are out of that situation with the job. If you are the boss, then it is a good thing you have lost that employee even if it is a short term pain in the butt because you are going to have a long term great team if this is the reality. You are also going to create a culture where everybody knows this is how we behave in this culture, and then it just starts having a gravity of its own. The reason you wouldn't hold them accountable is because you are caretaking, and the reason you wouldn't fire them is you are caretaking. They will become resentful of you. That happens all the time in business where you see somebody who has been trying to be nice to their employees and their employees are resentful. You see the boss in the group next to them. They are dead straight forward, and they are very clear about their wants and the expectations. They do it with love and gentleness, and they are cared for and a deep sense of loyalty has been created by that kind of leadership. Brett: A lot of the times when people start working with a new tool like this, they will do what they think is actually working with the tool, for example, not caretaking. They will actually end up avoiding and weaponizing the tool. An example of that is I don't care about your feelings. I am not responsible for them. It is not my job to make you feel better. They will say it in a way that actually pulls them away and creates distance. What are some ways to recognize that? What are some other ways that might happen as we start to work with this? Joe: The first way it is going to happen is you are going to start judging other people who are caretaking of you. That's the first eh that happens in the process of learning about this. What's actually happening is that you are judging your own caretaker, that you have started a war with yourself about your caretaker. You have seen that it causes you pain. You have seen it is suboptimal. Then you have decided let's make an enemy out of this thing and try to change it, which is underneath the same thing you are trying to do by being co-dependent is trying to change somebody else or change yourself. That doesn't help. It doesn't do much. It is fine for a bit because it is part of the process you are going to go through. It's okay. There's no reason to start a war with yourself over it because you are not going to win. That's one of the ways it is going to start. Then the second thing is what you are saying is really true. People will start weaponizing it and say now I am just going to cut myself off from you in a different way. Our society likes to tell the story that if you are caretaking, then you are not cutting yourself off from people. You are caring for them. You are not being arrogant. You are not being rude. You are not being dismissive. But you are still cutting yourself off from them because you are not telling them your truth. You are managing them, just in a different way. So then all of a sudden, if you decide to cut off from them in another way, like I am not going to talk to you or I am going to basically feel or have empathy, then it is just another way of cutting them off. In all of these things, what happens is your body will start constricting whether you are being co-dependent or whether you decide to be defensive in a more traditional manner or cut yourself off from them. You will start feeling your body somatically start to tense up. That's the indicator. That's the main thing. The last thing that can happen is you can start going down that caring for route, which is a beautiful route. You can start feeling how soft you are getting, the benefit of keeping an open heart and allowing them to feel anything they need to feel or want to feel and not trying to manage their reality, and at the same time not closing yourself down from them. That becomes this incredibly inspiring place, and you start noticing how much benefit you and the people around you get. Then you forget to draw boundaries. Then all of a sudden, it is like I can just manage myself to continually be open-hearted instead of I actually have to draw boundaries to maintain an open heart. You can't keep loving people without boundaries. A mom who doesn't have boundaries raises horrible children that eventually will be very abusive to the mom or dad, for that matter. Those are some of the pitfalls you can go into but the biggest pitfall is people will get through one layer of how they are caretaking, and they think they are through it. There are just more and more subtle ways. Brett: The corkscrew. Joe: Yeah, it is just the corkscrew. Exactly. Brett: It reminds me of another subtly there. You were talking about how we will start judging the caretaking in others. Perhaps the progression is that we begin completely not aware of our caretaking, and thinking that it is care. Then we start to become more subtly aware of the caretaking, and we are like oh shit, I am doing this. That's bad. I can't be doing that. Then we start attacking the part of ourselves that does it, which makes us judge the part of other people that is doing it. It seems there is another layer I have experienced myself that happens, which is I am done caretaking. I am not caretaking anymore, and what that means is that I am over it. I am done. I am better. All these other people are expecting me to caretake them, and they just need to be experiencing their emotions. I just need to let them experience their emotions because they need to process them. Then, all of a sudden, it becomes about everybody else having to process their shit and then I am just on this pedestal of like I am good. That has always led to some kind of heartbreak or challenge. Joe: The people I see who are really able to care for others without any kind of abandonment of themselves, they often feel people's emotions when the person isn't feeling their emotions. You will see them weep. These are rare folks, but you will see them weep or take in the sadness the other person is avoiding. Any way that we are defending ourselves is an opportunity to lean in, love more, and accept ourselves and others. Brett: Let's say somebody around you has started to address their caretaking habits. They are going this thing we were just discussing where they are starting to be blunt and rude with you. What advice do you have for anybody who is working with that?Joe: Cherish it. If you are listening to this podcast and you see somebody who is finally standing up for themselves, they are going to be wonky and weird about it. It is going to be clunky, and it will change. That's guaranteed to change, meaning the person who has been co-dependent or caretaking and they stop caretaking, they are going to be harsh for a while, most likely. They are not going to go straight into loving. The reason that that's the case is because they are so sure that if they don't care for people, people are going to attack them because their whole life they were attacked when they didn't abandon themselves for their mom, dad, or their sister or whoever it was. They are very sure they are going to be attacked, and so they are preparing for that attack. So what looks like they are being dicks is really them preparing for attack. Brett: It is like courage of them challenging their inner assumption and just hoping it gets proven wrong. Joe: If you see them doing it, the best thing you can possibly do is just say I am so glad that you are asking for what you want and I just want you to know I am not going to attack you. There's no need to be defensive. Then it is super short-lived. That's the trick. The other side, which we didn't get to talk about too much, which is when you are starting this new way of being of not caretaking, most likely you are going to be a little defensive, which is going to make people attacking you more likely. One thing you can do is to hold yourself with love and care as you are doing it, and not need to defend yourself. You are just going to say what you have got to say, and if the attack comes, you are going to allow yourself to use it as a sandpaper, to use it as a way to clean yourself out or to cleanse yourself, purify yourself. That's the best way to approach it, and at the same time, people are going to get upset with you. They are probably going to get upset with you even more the second time or even more the third time. If you stay in a loving, non-defensive stance, then the most likely scenario is they will see that there is this other way of being and they want to be that way with you. Sometimes that won't happen, and you will lose people. But either way, in a year or two, you will be surrounded by people who want to hear your truth, who don't want you to manage them, who don't want you to caretake them, who want to be sovereign and empowered next to you, not in you or through you. It might be a hell of a transition, but it is unbelievably worth it. Brett: I have got one more question for you. This came from somebody within our community. If you had to pick between a vaccine for Coronavirus and a vaccine for caretaking, which would it be? Why? Joe: Wow. I don't want to answer this question. Brett: We don't have to. We can cut that whole thing out. Joe: I don't want to answer the question because my answer is I wouldn't pick either. I wouldn't pull the butterfly out of the cocoon because it won't be able to fly afterwards. For me, it would be like do you build a vaccine for crawling or do you build a vaccine for a capacity to do mathematics in an eight year old. There are developmental steps we need to go through. All systems require something to challenge them so they can grow and be strong and evolve. If there is no challenge, there's no evolution. I don't want to get rid of our challenges. I want to learn how to embrace how, how to embrace the death that we face, to learn how to embrace the caretaking that we do, to learn how to embrace the innocence that tries to get us to manage other people to feel safe. That's what I want. It is not to get rid of it. It is to learn how to embrace it. Brett: That's amazing. Thank you very much, Joe. I just realized when I asked you that question, I caretook you by giving you an out. I am going to sit with that until next week. Joe: Awesome. What a pleasure to be with you, Brett. Brett: Yeah, same here. Once again.Thanks for listening to the Life in VIEW podcast. If you enjoyed what you heard today, please subscribe. We would love your feedback, so feel free to send us questions and comments. To reach us, join our newsletter, learn more about VIEW, or to take a course, visit http://view.life.

god relationships business coronavirus leadership entrepreneurship spirituality fall in love humans bs catholic personal development sad qigong exhale inhale al anon caretaking joe there

Sean Swarner Interesting Facts

Play Episode Listen Later May 12, 2021 73:27

Sean Swarner Interesting Facts - Learn how Sean not only beat cancer twice but went on to summit Mt. Everest and the remaining 6 summits and the north and south poles. He now brings hope to all who have cancer and those who have survived cancer with his organization CancerClimber.org. I loved, loved, loved this conversation with Sean and my hope is next July 2022, I will join him to climb Mt. Kilimanjaro and add the names of my own loved ones, who have had to deal with cancer and either survived or lost their battle with this awful disease. Thanks so much for listening! Joe Sean Swarner Speaker | Author | Performance Coach Adventurer | World Record Holder Author of: Keep Climbing: How I Beat Cancer and Reached the Top of the World Website: https://www.seanswarner.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanswarner/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sean.swarner LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/seanswarner/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/seanswarner Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.libsyn.com Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to: https://joecostelloglobal.lybsyn.com Follow Joe: https://linktr.ee/joecostello Transcript Joe: Ok, today, my guest is Shawn Swarner. Sean is an incredible human being, you're not going to believe the things that he has done already in his life. And I am so excited for this interview. As I was talking to Sean offline, I was explaining how the whole thought of summiting Everest is just in itself amazing. And then the way that it's been accomplished by Shaun and the adversity that he had to deal with growing up and just to to be this person that he is. So this is exciting, not just at a sports level or at a level of just doing all these amazing feats, but just just the human drive that this person has. So, Shawn, welcome to the show. Man, I am so excited to have. Sean: I appreciate it. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to do the. Joe: So I like to start and people that listen to my podcast hear me say this one hundred times that I like to start from the beginning. And I know you probably told the story a million times already, but I like to set a foundation of pollution is where you came from, how you grew up, the main health factors that happen early on, how you got over that and then become who you are today. So if you don't mind, if you could at least give us as much of the back on the floor is yours so as much of the back story that you want to give? I welcome it all. Sean: I appreciate that and I'm going through my mind, and one of the things that got me through was a sense of humor, which we'll get to, but I'm assuming you probably don't want to go back. Forty six years with my mom and dad got together, then nine months later. Joe: Yeah, that's got no so that we could start right there. That's what. Sean: So I came into the world crying and screaming and kicking. And Joe: There we go, Sean: I remember it like it was yesterday. Joe: Right. Sean: No, I. Well, I guess my I was born and raised in Ohio, just a normal Midwest kid. I remember back in the day before toilet paper was hard to find. We would TPE the coach's house and across country in the house. And then he installed a motion sensor lights. So we had to be a little bit more careful. And I just I learned to. Do things I wasn't supposed to, but I never got caught because I learned how to not get caught. So I was a kind of a studious growing up. But everything was it was completely normal until I was in eighth grade. And I was actually I was going up for a layup and basketball things and I came down and something snapped my neck and it sounded like like, say, for Thanksgiving, you grab the chicken bone and you're pulling on the leg like the ripping the tendons in the ligaments and everything. That's that's kind of what my knee sounded like when I was hobbling over to the stage that to sit down my whole body the next day swallowed up so much. My my mom and dad couldn't even recognize their own son. So they stuck in the local hospital. Willard, Ohio, population was five thousand, I think is maybe five thousand three now. So it's not much just change. Maybe eight stoplights or something like that, but they stuck in the hospital, they started treating me for pneumonia and it's very it's very difficult to cure cancer by sucking on a nebulizer. So I wasn't getting any better. But at 13, I was thinking, well, you know, I'm going to soak up all this attention. I got the cheerleaders coming in. I got my friends coming out of balloons all over my room. Joe: The. Sean: It was fantastic. But I didn't know what was going on in my body, which was advanced stage four Hodgkin's lymphoma. And I remember my parents didn't tell me that I had cancer. They told me that I had Hodgkin's. And I can only imagine what they were going through when the doctor told them that I had three months to live. The doctors approach to my my parents said your first born son now has an expiration date. And no one wants to hear that, and I've heard that one of the greatest pains, pains that you can have is outliving your your son or your daughter. So I didn't want that to ever happen to my mom and dad. And I remember very vividly where I was on the bottom of the on my hands and knees in the shower three or four months into treatment. And because of the treatment, I was bald from head to toe. I was on my hands and knees sobbing, just absolutely weeping, pulling chunks of hair out of the drain so the water could go down. And I was also thinking because I was getting ready for school that day, and that's when my hair came up all in that one time in the shower. And I was thinking about what my friends may have been doing at the same time, getting ready for school the same time I was. Sean: And they were probably worried about the latest hairstyles being popular. If things that in my mind, looking back at it now, were trivial, it meant nothing because there were nights I went to bed not knowing if I was going to wake up the next morning. I mean, can you imagine what it feels like being terrified to close your eyes and fall asleep because you don't know if you're going to wake up. And that's that's what I had to deal with as the 13 year old. So I grew up with a completely different perspective. And thanks to the miracle of modern medicine, family support, prayer just in a will to move forward. I guess if I walked out of the hospital, a hairless, happy, bloated young man and I, I went back into being a quote unquote normal teenager, I guess if there is anything that's that you can say normal for a teenager. But the remission was short lived because I was going in for a checkup for the first cancer when they found a second cancer completely unrelated to the first one. And in fact, on the apparently I'm the only person to ever had Hodgkin's and ask start. And the chances of surviving both of those illnesses is roughly the same as winning the lottery four times in a row with the same numbers. Joe: Radical Krutch. Sean: So I think I'm a living, breathing, walking miracle, without a doubt, and. I remember going in for a check for that first cancer in one day, they found a tumor on an X-ray. They did a needle biopsy. They removed a lymph node, put in a hip and catheter. They cracked open my ribs, took out the tumor, are put in danger and started chemotherapy less and less than one day. And they diagnosed me with a type of cancer called ASCAN sarcoma. And that's basically they gave me 14 days to live. Joe: And this is at age 60. Sean: 16, so 13, the first cancer, 60 Joe: Yeah. Sean: Percent cancer, cancer, my my whole teenage years were just they were taken from me, from the cancer. Joe: He's trying to just picture this in my brain of what happens during those years of like those prom, there's sports and it sound like you were active before 13 when you were first diagnosed. So you are definitely you look like someone that would be athletic. So you're missing all of that. Sean: It's a green, it just makes me look like I'm. Joe: No, Sean: I Joe: But. Sean: Was I was I was incredibly athletic, and I, I think I because I was a swimmer, I started competitive swimming at maybe five or six years old. And I think I still have some records from the 11, 12 age group. Joe: Still hold it. Sean: Still Joe: Wow, that is so cool. Sean: Undefeated in the summer league, went to Nationals numerous times. I loved it, but I also think that's one of the reasons why I'm still alive, is because I looked at things differently from a competitive angle, and I pushed myself not to be the best, but I always pushed myself to be my best. And that's what I did, was going through the treatments, I I knew that when I was going through the cancer that I was going to have bad days. And I also knew I was going to have good days. So if today was a bad day, then I just I focused on tomorrow or the next day when I was going to have a good day. And I when I had those good days, I was I was truly living and learning how to be in the present moment. Joe: Yeah, that's definitely one of the gifts that would come out of what you went through, which people struggle their whole life to eliminate the noise around them and to be present. Right. Because you literally only have this moment right now. So many people worry about what's on the schedule for tomorrow or the future or all of that. And some people even and I'm totally guilty dwell on the past. So I should have done that different. Where would I be today if I had gone left instead of right? So it's it's really hard to bring that in to be present and figure out how to do that. And I would assume that's a that's at least a good outcome of what you went through, is that it forced you to live every day the most that you could, knowing that this just this who knows what tomorrow will bring, if anything. Right. Sean: Absolutely. I mean, one of the things that I do every morning before I even get out of bed, the instant I open my eyes in the morning, I don't I don't I never hit the snooze, because if you constantly hit the snooze over and over and over again, you're telling yourself subconsciously, I'm excited about the day. The day can wait. But if you turn it off and I actually have a smartwatch and just vibrate so it doesn't wake up my wife. So I turn I turn the alarm off and I lay there and I tell myself the past is done. There's nothing I can do about it. Tomorrow may never come, so no matter what happens today, today is the best day ever. And I have a choice, we all have a choice to make that day turn out however we want it to, and it starts with that morning intention. Joe: Also, I don't want to get too far because I had so many questions. This is exciting. Like I said, I'm not going to let you go. So 16. So you're you were diagnosed and you're going through all of these treatments. When do you become and for lack of a better term, quote, normal where they say, OK, we've we've clobbered this thing, you're you're in remission and your hair is growing back. You're starting to feel like average every day. 16 year old, our seventh year, however long it took for you to become being normal. Sean: That's a great question, and I was I was thinking, while you're talking and I honestly want to say that the answer is never. Joe: Ok. Sean: Because no one's ever had these cancers before. No one no one knows what's going to happen to me. Joe: Yeah. Sean: I go in once a year for a checkup and they obviously for the past 20, 30 years now, it's come back clean. So I literally see every time I go into to get my blood work done at my annual checkup, I see it as I have another year left. And I try to accomplish as much as I can in that year, so I don't think because of the way I'm looking at it, I don't think I'll ever have a normal life. Joe: Yeah. Sean: This is my new normal. And I've just adapted to I think because of everything I've been through, I'm comfortable with being uncomfortable. So when when things are going well for me, I'm like, oh, something's going to happen. Joe: Yeah, so that was I was going to ask you that I just turned fifty nine and I don't envy having that fact for lack of a better term, that cloud hanging over my head, knowing that I went through something, I beat it. Sean: The. Joe: But there's always the chance that it'll rear its ugly head. And so people that have to live with that Sean: And. Joe: Sort of pressure on them, that has to take its toll. I would I would assume it has to take its toll depending on how you deal with it. Right. And with everything. When you wake up, you have the choice of saying this is going to be a great day. It's going to be a bad day. And for some reason and you can help me with this and hopefully the listeners will really heed your advice on this is why do we always choose the negative part? Like everyone, people just love to complain about how their job sucks so they don't have enough money or whatever the case might be. And if they and I listen, I've gone through my whole life having sort of this always this negative thing, like, why didn't I ever reach this goal or that goal or this accomplishment? And I'm hard on myself about it. And I also know I didn't do the work to potentially get to some of those goals. So I'm starting at this ripe old age admitting to myself, OK, you just didn't put in the time. But now I'm only in the past few months I've really shifted my frame of mind to say I literally have everything that I need know. I love my life. I I love the person that I live with. Joellen, my life partner I love. I have everything that I need. And why would I just complain all the time of all the things that I don't have? And our mutual friend David Meltzer says you literally have to get out of your own way and let the universe deliver to you the abundance that's there. And we actually get in the way of making that happen. So why don't people choose the negative? That's what I want to know. Sean: Absolutely, and I honestly, I was thinking of a couple of things, one. We do have we have we do have a choice, and when people start to get anxious, when people start to worry about things, it's because of of two words. What if. What if this happens, what if that happens? What if this happens? What if I get cancer again? But you learn to to realize that for me, it was a it was a house of letters. It was a six letter word that that I was allowed to have power over me. So. And recently, it's funny you mention that recently you were thinking of this, that with because I'm doing the same thing recently, I'm realizing that this word cancer. Had so much control and power over me because I allowed that to happen. And then I realized, why am I freaking out over a word? I mean, don't get me wrong, I completely respect cancer and it can be deadly and it oftentimes is. But it's the word that's making me freak out when I go in for my annual checkups. It used to be smelling sailin that would make me think of all these traumatic things that happened in my past. But it doesn't mean it's going to happen again. So when I realize I'm asking myself, what if. I'm projecting into the future and I'm giving my brain permission to go crazy, to come up with any any cockamamie imaginary thing that I can come up with. So when I when I think of my my treatments or what I think of my annual checkup and I constantly, constantly ask myself, what if I realized, well, what if I get cancer, but what if I don't? Joe: Yeah. Sean: Perfect example. Joe: Yep. Sean: So I realized that the word itself means nothing. It's what I'm actually placing on that word and how I react to it. So when people hear cancer, they're like, oh, wow. But if this is what I did, I spared myself in the mirror and I said cancer about 50 times over and over and over again. And slowly it lost its power over me. And around thirty five or forty times I looked at myself laughing, what the hell this is? This is crazy. But it's lessened its power over and over and over. You just can't cancel. The more you hear about it, the more you get rid of it, you know, the less power it has over you. Joe: Yeah. Sean: And then why people are focused on on the negative so much. I think it's because unconsciously, people are allowing their brains to be programmed by outside sources. If you look at it, most people probably I would say 80 to 90 percent of the world, the first thing they do when they wake up, they grab their phone, they check their emails, they go on social media, whatever it might be. Either they do it before they go to the bathroom or while they're going to the bathroom. It's one of the. And what happens is if you're not paying attention to what you're consuming, because there's that old saying of you are what you eat, but in all honesty, it is you are what you consume. Joe: Yeah. Sean: So if people are constantly consuming this, this this false information from the media and with the media, let me turn on the news. You don't have to watch it for more than 30 seconds to realize it's going to be depressing Joe: Yeah. Sean: Because it's the same stuff all over and over and over again. You have to wait through, what, 60 different stories to see one positive story that takes a point zero five percent of the hour long program. So what people are doing is they're allowing their brains to be programmed by outsiders, outside sources. That outside source is just constantly bombarding their brain with negativity. However you can you have a choice to, like, wake up in the morning and have a positive affirmation, today is the best day ever. I write down my, my, my daily affirmation and I write down three things that I'm going to do and three things I'm going to try to do or and then at the end of the day, as opposed to turning on the news, I get my journal and write down five things I'm grateful for. So I'm essentially bookending my day on a positive note as opposed to, I would say, most of the world they book in their day on the negative note. Joe: Yep. Sean: So if you're constantly being bombarded in allowing negative thoughts into your brain, how do you think it's even possible to be positive? Joe: Yeah, it's I don't know if you hit it on the head and it's just it's it's letting all of that stuff come in from the outside. You have a different perspective for what you went through. And and I think people just take for granted that they're alive and healthy and have a roof over their head and all of the simple things that we just don't we don't think about. And it's important to take a step back and look at that. And instead you take what if and you say, what if all of this stuff went away? Sean: Now. Joe: Where would I be right? Or what if all of this stuff tripled and double that? I had even more abundance because of this, this and this. But it seems like what you wish for, what you think about when people concentrate on the negative things, more of that stuff, it's just Sean: Mike. Joe: It's just naturally happens. And I was doing it for so long. And now that I've shifted, it's just completely changed. And it's I don't know if it's because it's so hard to understand that you can do that with your own brain and your own inner power to shift your mindset. And people, though, that's all that fufu stuff. And it's not. It's and I think that's why it's so hard to explain. It's so hard to get people to just give it a try. Just 30 days. Just think towards the most positive thing you can think of. And every day just try to eliminate as much negativity in your life will change. And Sean: Right. Joe: It's just really hard for people to understand, I think. Sean: And I think that I mean, there are some there are a large percent of the population who think they're still positive when they're actually being negative to the brain and they don't even realize it. So a perfect example. You're walking down the street and you're telling yourself, don't trip, don't trip. You're going to fall on your face, but if you turn it around it from a different perspective and you tell yourself, stand tall, stand tall, walk strong. When entrepreneurs when people go into the stock market, whatever it might be, I guarantee you they don't think, oh, I don't want to lose money. No, that's state. That's that. People are thinking, I'm being positive. No, they want to make money to focus on what they want. And that's exactly what happened when I was in the hospital. The story of that 13 year old who was 60 pounds overweight in the bottom of the shower floor. Like I mentioned before, I didn't I didn't focus on not dying. I focused on living. I mean, can you imagine how it would have turned out if I kept telling myself, oh, don't die, don't die, don't die or climbing Everest. Hey, don't fall, don't fall, don't fall, don't don't stop. And same thing for runners and people doing anything athletic. I guarantee you people who are so don't stop, don't stop as opposed to make it to that spot. And then when you make it there, make it to the next spot. Same thing in life. People are saying never quit, don't quit your brain, just quit Joe: Yeah. Sean: As opposed to make it to that milestone, make it to the next milestone, make it to the next day. Make it to the next day. Keep pushing forward. Joe: Yeah, that's a great point, and that's what I think really people should take away from this section of what we're talking about is that even when they talk about visualization, right, it's like you're you your body, your brain does not know whether or not you've accomplished something or not. Right. So why not tell it the best story you can write? Why not say that? I, I, I'm like, visualize you're on top of Everest. Like just visualize it until it happens. Right. It's just so you have to tell your own, your own body the best story possible. And I think that's this portion of what we're talking about should be a lesson to say your your body, your brain and your body is listening. So make sure you tell the right story. So can you take us back to your 16? You're going through all this. What's the next phase in your life? Sean: A wild and crazy college life Joe: Ok, where was that? Sean: That was in Westminster College, and I think looking back at it, because my my teen years and my high school years were taken from me, have Joe: You're going Sean: You Joe: To make up for Sean: Have you ever seen a movie Animal Joe: The Sean: House? Joe: Absolute. Sean: There you go. And I was Bellucci. I had a wonderful time Joe: Nice. Sean: And I wouldn't change a thing. And I started off molecular bio thinking I was going to cure cancer by splicing genes. And I took organic chemistry and immunology. And it's it's pretty difficult to pass those classes when you don't open a book and study. So. So I actually switched to psychology because I was taking a an introductory psych course while I was going through the immunology class. And I really found it fascinating. And I started thinking, oh, well, maybe there's something here where I can help cancer patients and cancer survivors move on with their lives because it's not an individual disease. It affects everybody in the family thinking, OK, well, I have this great insight. Took the GRE, went to Jacksonville, Florida, to go to work on my master's and my doctorate. And then some things happen. I was working for different jobs, trying to go through my doctorate, which is just ridiculous. I mean, just to focus on education. Wow. So at some point I decided that I hadn't dealt with my own issues. Because of what I went through, I never even considered what cancer did to me and how I wanted to quit on the other end, because in college I just I left it behind. I didn't even bring it up. I mean, there I dated some girls and I was thinking, OK, well, how do I bring up that? I'm a survivor. It's not like, you know, dinner conversation. Oh, you know, how how how's your wife and how is your dinner? Oh, I had cancer. You know, he just Joe: Yeah, Sean: Can't do that. Joe: Yeah. Sean: So I was so worried about I didn't know what to do. I just I just I forgot about it. So then in grad school is thousands of miles away from Ohio. And it was the first time I actually stopped and looked myself in the mirror and ask myself those deep questions, you know, who are you? What do you want from life? What's your purpose? So I just did some deep, deep understanding of who I was, and then I realized, OK, I had been given a tremendous gift of the mind body connection, and I wanted to help and give back to cancer patients in the cancer world. And that's what I did, more research and more research and kept getting bigger and bigger and thinking higher and higher and like, OK, well, how about we use the biggest platform of the highest platform in the world to scream? Hope the guy. Great. Let's let's go climb Everest. Moved to Colorado just because, like the highest point in Florida is the top of the for the Four Seasons Hotel in Miami. Joe: And Sean: So I moved to Colorado, Rocky Mountains Joe: I love. Sean: Because I know I don't know too many mountaineers who live in Florida. Joe: No, no, but it's also. Sean: So I moved to Colorado and I trained in and literally nine months later flew over to Kathmandu, Nepal, and headed up Everest as the first cancer survivor to some of the highest mountain in the world. Joe: So what year was this and how old were you? Sean: Well, that was that was 2002, I actually submitted May 16th at nine thirty two in the morning. So night again almost 20 years ago, 19 years ago. I was twenty seven at the time. That's right. Joe: And Sean: Twenty Joe: You Sean: Seven. Joe: Did this with nine months of training. Sean: Nine months of training and when I first. Well, when I first moved to Colorado, I didn't even have any support. My brother came with me. We lived out the back of my Honda Civic and we camped in Estes Park for two months before we even got a sponsorship. Joe: Oh, my gosh. Sean: So we were I remember one morning we woke up, we were going to go climb, I think it's one of the Twin Peaks in Estes Park and we got about two feet of snow in August. And I was thinking to myself, because we're living in the car, that camping, it's like, the hell am I doing here? Joe: Josh. Sean: What did I get myself into? My my office was the library and a pay phone bank. So I was calling corporations like Ghatak and Karvelas in the Northeast saying, hey, I'm a two time cancer survivor with one lung and I'm going to go climb Mount Everest in 10 months and I need your help. Ninety nine doors closed in my face. Joe: Really, that's Sean: At. Joe: So surprising that your story is so unique that that one that triggered people to say yes more often. Sean: But they didn't think it was even possible. Joe: I guess, Sean: They thought Joe: Wow. Sean: It was physiologically impossible to do that with half your lung capacity, so they like, like I said, nine out of 10 people. I mean, hey, you know, this is my story. Click And I thought it was a joke. So Joe: What? Sean: I. I actually have both lungs, but there's so much scar tissue from the radiation treatment, there's really no oxygen transfer. Yeah. So Joe: So Sean: It's Joe: There wasn't removed, it was just Sean: Like. Joe: It's just collapsed or Sean: Now. Joe: If that's the right term, but Sean: That's Joe: The scar tissue, Sean: A perfect term, Joe: Ok. Sean: Yeah. Joe: Ok, and this that was from the age 16 to one. A lot of the chemo and radiation was done. That's when it happened. Sean: Exactly. Joe: Did you have it? Did you also have chemo and radiation at 13? Sean: I had chemo the first time and chemo radiation the second time. Joe: Ok, and so it just affected the one long in the sense that it just created just the scar tissue over Sean: Correct, Joe: It where it wasn't. So Sean: Correct. Joe: It doesn't really work at all. Sean: Not not really. In fact, in January, I had a little scare, they think it's a long term side effect from the radiation where I had some spots in my back removed and now I have another another starless by about six inches long where they had to go remove that. But if that's all I have to do, the first cancer, the second cancer is 16, 17, and the now 46 year old. Cut it out. I'm good. Joe: Yeah, Sean: Yeah. Joe: Ok, so we are. You said what was the date again, Sean: May 16th. Joe: May 16th of two thousand and two, Sean: Yeah. Joe: And you were twenty seven years old, OK? And so you trained nine months before you decided you said, I'm going to go do this. So you you set aside nine months to get ready for this. Sean: Correct. Joe: Ok, so does the training. Is the training the stuff that I saw in some of the videos where you're you're pulling a sheet behind you and and whatever, your pull tire's up a hill and like, how did you figure out how to train for such as that? Sean: So that was actually when I when I went to the North Pole a couple of years ago, but for training going up to up Everest, there's lungs Long's peak, which is 18 miles round trip, and it's it's fourteen thousand two hundred and fifty six feet. And I eventually worked my way up to climbing that peak once a week with 100 pounds of rocks in my backpack. So I would train myself and I'll go up onto that peak and into the Rocky Mountain National Park in a bad day, thinking that a bad day on Long's peak was probably better than a good day on Everest. And what I do a training for, for anything like the North Pole, the Hawaii Ironman, I did that. I train harder than I think the event actually event is going to be for two reasons. I get my body in shape, my mind in shape, but also I'm thankful I don't have to train more and I'm more excited about the actual event. Joe: Right. That's crazy. So what is a normal when you're when you're training for something like that? What what would be a normal day in Sean's life? What time do you get up? What kind of stuff do you like? I can't even fathom something like this. I just Sean: Well. Joe: Got done skiing and snowboarding in Utah. I got home last night. I went with the old my oldest friend. We went from elementary and junior high and high school. And Sean: Now. Joe: Our families were friends and his father was my dentist. And so he said, I'm going to snowboard spring skiing. I haven't been skiing in twenty five plus years. Sean: Now. Joe: Like, come on, let's go. And I was a good skier a long time ago and yeah, I just can't imagine what it would take. My legs were shot. So what does it take. What's Seans the day in the life of of what you do. Sean: Well, I'm going to challenge you again, then, what are you doing July twenty, Fourth to August seven? Joe: I saw that and I was like, God, I want to do that. So Sean: So. Joe: Explain. So since you're talking about. Explain what that is before we talk about your daily routine. So Sean: Well, Joe: Explain. Sean: Yeah, that would lead into it, because I everybody every year I take a group of Kilimanjaro as Joe: That's. Sean: A fundraiser for cancer charity, and what we do is we actually we pay for a survivors trip. And then it's the responsibility of that survivor to raise funds for next year's survivor, kind Joe: Oh, Sean: Of Joe: Wow. Sean: Paying it forward. Anyone can go. We just fund the survivors trip. And this year we actually have enough funds to send to survivors. So I'm hoping with those two survivors, there isn't. They raise enough funds to take three and twenty twenty two and then maybe five and twenty, twenty three and so forth up to. I'd love to take 15 people, 15 survivors for free every year at Joe: Wow, that's Sean: All Joe: Incredible. Sean: Costs. But for Kilimanjaro, let's say I would, I would wake up and about four miles from here we have a set of stairs that are pretty steep and there are two hundred and I live at I want to say sixty, sixty four, sixty five hundred feet. So I'm already an altitude which helps a lot. Joe: Is Sean: I Joe: It? Sean: Wake up in the morning before sunrise and eventually I will do that. That set of stairs 10 to 15 times with about 70 or 80 pounds of rocks in my backpack. So you're talking what, two thousand, maybe, maybe three, four thousand steps up and down in how many stairs are there? The Empire State Building. I think there's one thousand something so Joe: Yeah, Sean: Less than I did. Joe: Right. Wow. Sean: Then come back, wake my wife up, will do some yoga, eat breakfast, come here to do some work on my laptop, and then I'll probably either do it depending on the day, either rowing, lifting or running, and then on the weekends go out and do a 14 or something like that and a 14 year, a fourteen thousand foot peak. But I also have a sponsorship through a company called Hypoxic Go Joe: Check. Sean: Where there's this machine. I call it Arcudi to like R-2 because it's tiny and it actually filters out oxygen to simulate altitude. So I'll I'll do the yoga, I'll do the rowing machine or and I'm doing this because it's a mask of Joe: For those of you who are listening, he's putting his hand over his face. Sean: Just randomly. That's that's what I do. And I work out, I, Joe: That's right. Sean: I, I'll do those workouts at home on a mask that's connected to this machine and I'll end up doing these workouts at nineteen thousand feet. So what I'm doing is I'm pretty acclimatizing my body because I have to make up for the lack of my right lung because when you get into altitude there's less oxygen, you know, it's spread out, spread out further. And when you get to like if we left, if we went from here to the top of Everest, we'd be dead in five minutes just because of the lack of oxygen. So I treat it and I try to pre acclimatize myself. And when we go to Kilimanjaro, I tell people my training schedule and like, I could never do that. Well, remember, you're training for yourself. I'm training for me and ten other people. Joe: Right. Sean: So Joe: Right. Sean: This if you're interested, this would be my 21st summit of Kilimanjaro. Joe: That's incredible in regards to what you eat, are you like a very strict like is everything that you do? Very strict and regimented. Sean: Not not everything, I mean, I give myself some leniency sugar during the week, I don't do on the weekends Joe: Ok. Sean: On Easter. Yeah, I have those little malt balls, you know, the Easter Mother's Day. But for the most part, I mean, no sugar. See, what did I have just for lunch? My wife made a salad. We had some chick like a chicken, homemade chicken salad. We're very conscious of what we eat. We stay away from the sugars. No. And that means no white pasta, no white bread. I love I've always loved broccoli. I just eat healthy. Joe: Right. Sean: Every once in a while I'll have a burger or steak, but, you know, maybe once a month. Joe: Beer, a glass of wine, no. Sean: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I Joe: Ok, Sean: Like I actually I brew beer at home too. Joe: Ok, OK, Sean: Yeah. Joe: Ok. Sean: It's great because when I travel you know, I make the beer, I come back two weeks later I'm like, oh beer. Joe: There you go. OK, cool. Sean: Oh. Joe: So were you afraid going Tavaris like, I can't I can't even imagine I'm telling you to sit here and talk with you about this. I I've watched like we've talked about before, we actually started recording, watched the shows, the different movies or documentaries about it and the getting frostbite and people getting pneumonia and their sister, their body shutting down. And they're having to have the tip of like my nose is red right now from being sunburned and windburn from Snover. And I'm like, I don't I can't even fathom all the things that must go through your brain. And then watching where you cross over on that, I don't even know what it's called. You think I know after Sean: Remasters Joe: Watching. Sean: Have. Joe: Yeah. The with the ones with the ladders. Right. I don't know how many of those you have to cross and I just I don't know. And then the spots where I don't even know if this is something people point out on the way up or on the way down. But that's where we had to leave so and so like at the all those things go into your brain and you don't want to be the weak link in the chain. Something happens to you and then all of a sudden other people have to descend, like, I don't even know how that works. So, I mean, arriving at base camp must have been just like incredible and scary as hell. I've been like, oh, my gosh, there's no turning back here. It is base camp. And I'm and I said, I'm going to do this. Sean: I think for me, I obviously was focused on the summit, I wanted to get to the top like everybody else who goes over there, but I think I was more focused on enjoying the whole process because literally when I got to base camp, every step outside of base camp was my personal record for altitude. I had never been any higher than base camp. But so every step was higher than I'd ever been, so Joe: What Sean: I Joe: Is Sean: Am. Joe: What is base camp at? Sean: Seventeen thousand six hundred feet. Joe: Ok, and you and you're saying this machine you use change you at nineteen thousand. Sean: But I didn't I didn't have that machine before Joe: Oh, Sean: I. Joe: Wow. Sean: So the highest I have ever been was just around just below fourteen thousand five hundred feet, which is the highest mountain here in Colorado. Joe: That's correct. Sean: Albert. Joe: Wow. Sean: And when I got to the summit of Everest, I mean, it was double the whatever, the highest point I'd ever been. But I knew that I was so focused on, you know, you asked me about being afraid, there were times that those little. Negative seeds got planted in my brain, but I didn't want them. I didn't let them grow and I was very mindful and very aware of when those thoughts came in my brain, because looking back at the same analogy of that young boy on the shower floor, I focused on living as opposed to not dying. And when I when I was crossing the ladders on on the glass across the crevasses, I wasn't focused on, hey, don't fall in the crevasse. I was focused on making it to the next side. And when we passed the dead bodies, I stepped over a number of dead bodies. I just I tried to not ask myself the question, I did this when I got back down. Why did he die? Why would nine? And what's the difference, like, why would I why would I be worthy and he wouldn't be. But it's it's like anything in life where you just don't know sometimes. Why did I get cancer? I don't know. It's a whole question. Why me? Why me? Well, the fact of the matter is, it was me. So deal with it. Why not me? Joe: Yeah, I've had this conversation with other people on the podcast who have gone through some adversity. I you know, I feel like that adversity has been given, fortunately or unfortunately, however you want to look at it, because the outcomes of things that you've learned through what you've gone through have created this person, this mental strength, and someone who is very happy day to day or other people, just no matter, they could be having the most amazing life and they still complain. But I feel like, you know, the adversity has been given to people with strength, and I'm not sure if that's true. It's something I made up of my own brain because I think I'm such a wimp that I cut my finger. I start like I don't know how I would deal with what you've gone through, what other people around me have gone through. So that's what's my own little story, I tell myself. So you just didn't choose me because he knew I couldn't handle it, so. Sean: But but you never know what you can handle until you're put in that situation. Joe: Right. Sean: And people always say say things like that all the time, I don't. My God, I have no idea what I would do if I was ever in your situation. You don't know. Joe: Yeah. Sean: And you'd be amazed at how much you can actually handle when you are in that situation. Joe: Yeah, that's incredible. OK, so you're at base camp and how many are you in? I don't know how you travel if there's 12 or 15 or whatever the number is. How many are there with you going up? Sean: So, as you probably know, a normal Everest expedition could I mean, it could be 20, 30 people. Joe: Ok. Sean: A number of sardars Sherpas, you name it, and clients. I had my brother at base camp, a cook at base camp, two Sherpas and me, and that was it. We were I say I was we were on a shoestring budget, but we didn't even have shoelaces. So we. Joe: Did Sean: It Joe: You end Sean: Was. Joe: Up ever getting sponsorship before you left? Sean: I did in Joe: Ok, Sean: One of Joe: Good. Sean: Them was Ghatak, one was Capello's, and Joe: Ok. Sean: Believe it or not, I didn't even have a summit suit a week before I was supposed to go up for the top. And just my crazy luck. And I know it's not like it was by the big guy upstairs, but the north face came in with my my summit suit and it actually said Shantz Warner Everest base camp on the box. And it got to. Joe: Wow, that's crazy. Sean: It's like two or three days before I was supposed to go up in the sun at my summit suit came in. Joe: That is nuts. Wow. All right, so when you start out, how long does it. How long should it take you or how long is like the most that you can spend up that high? Like, is there a period of time that you have the summit? And I know it's due to weather, too, right. You have to sometimes Sean: At. Joe: Just go. We can't make the attempt today. The weather is just not good enough. So what did it end up taking you from base camp to summoning Everest? Sean: So a lot of people don't understand that when you get there, you don't go from base camp and go up to Camp One, spend a couple of days there, go up to camp to spend a couple of days there, three, four. Same thing from the south side. We actually there are four camps and then with base camp there. Joe: Ok. Sean: So we arrived at base camp April 8th and I summited May 16. So almost a month and a half. The whole time we're going from base camp up higher, establishing different camps and then coming back down so that that does two things, we go up with a full back, a pack drop off stuff and then go back with an empty backpack, go back up with a full pack your stuff and go back down. So, like I said, does two things. It actually transports the gear and material that we need to each camp, food, gear, whatever. But it also is getting our body adjusted to the altitude. Joe: Ok. Sean: So then we would go up and down, up and down, up and down after we established three and then four when when you get to camp for your before you get to Camp four, you pay attention to the weather. And there's a weather window because everybody has seen that that quintessential picture of Everest with the snow plume Joe: Yep, Sean: Blowing off the top. Joe: Yep. Sean: That's because that's because the sun is puncturing the jetstream, the just Joe: Uh. Sean: Tunnels, the summit, two Joe: Huh? Sean: Hundred three hundred miles an hour. So it's impossible to climb on that. So what happens is pre monsoon season, there's a high pressure system that pushes the jet stream north. And that's when people sneak up on top of Everest and come back down. So you see on I guess you don't look on a map, but meteorologists know and they give you a weather window like it's usually mid-May. For us, it was supposed to be May 15th where the weather window was good. But for whatever reason, that may on May 14th, we were supposed to move to May 15th and go up for the summit. I was at camp three and I was suffering a mild form of cerebral edema, which is altitude induced swelling of the brain. And I couldn't move. So every single other expedition who was on the same schedules, us went from Camp three, moved to Camp four and went to the summit that night. The next morning, the winds were howling. They came down the aisle retreat, and they lost their opportunity to climb. I slept on an oxygen that day. The next morning we went up to camp for summited on May 16th, a day later, and there was just a slight breeze in the top. We spent about 30 minutes up there to forty five minutes, which is unheard of. Joe: Who's medically trained to tell you what's wrong with you or do you just have to know, like there's no one is like in your own little group, it's you just have to know what's right or wrong with you and how to fix it. Sean: In my group, yeah, I mean, in other expeditions are expedition doctors, you know, everybody there were we made friends with some people from Brown University who were doing a study up there. And it was it's actually really funny. They're doing a study on how the altitude affects the brain. And they gave me this book and I became a volunteer to help with the study. And I was at Camp three when I was acclimatizing and not going up for the summit, but just sleeping at Camp three is going to come back down the mountain like a little Rolodex thing. It's like the size of an index card and you flip it back and on the front of it, you're supposed to pick out which object was was different, which which one didn't belong. And it was like a small triangle, a large triangle, a medium sized triangle and a Pentagon or something like that. Right. Joe: So. Sean: And so and each each are different. So big, medium, small square in a circle you pick out the circle. But it was funny. So I get up to camp three and I'm radioing down to them. All right. You guys ready to go? Yeah, we're good. So I flip it over and I'm thinking I'm going to have some fun with this. Joe: All right. Sean: So I go page one, the Penguin Page to the House, page three, the dog. And keep in mind, they're all geometric shapes. So Joe: All Sean: I think. Joe: Right, to the naming of animals, as they say, oh, for. Sean: It's like I take my thumb off the microphone and there's a long silence. Joe: It's not. Sean: And all of a sudden, Sean, are you feeling OK? Joe: Right. Sean: Like, yeah, why, what's going on? There are no animals. Joe: That is so funny. Oh, my gosh, they were probably like, oh, we got to get a helicopter up there. Sean: They were thinking, we need to get emergency up there and get him down off the mountain. Joe: That is so funny. Oh, my gosh. So is it true that it gets backed up up there when people are trying to summit during a certain season? Sean: It is now when I was there, it wasn't as bad Joe: Check. Sean: And also. A few years ago, there was a big earthquake and there used to be a section called the Hillary Step, Joe: Yep, I Sean: And Joe: Remember hearing. Sean: So it used to be a chunk of rock that used to hang out. And literally, if you took six inches off to your left side, you would plummet a mile and a half straight down. And there was that section where only one person could go up or one person could go down at a time, and that's where the bottleneck usually was. So with the earthquake, what I've heard is that there's no longer a Hillary step. It's more like a Hillary slope now because that giant rock has been dislodged. But from the obviously you saw a picture from a couple of years ago that just that long queue of people, apparently it's getting a little out of control. Joe: And that's crazy. Would you ever do it again? Do you ever care about doing it again? Sean: Well, as is my family or my wife going to hear this this time, I don't know if it calms down and it becomes less popular, I honestly would I would like to attempt it again without oxygen to see if it's possible to climb Everest with one lung and no no supplemental oxygen. Joe: Who was the guy that did it with no, nothing. Sean: Reinhold Messner, he's climbed, yeah, and then there's also a guy named Viscose who climbed the 8000 meter peaks. So it's been it's been done numerous times, but the first person who did it was Mesner. I believe. Joe: No oxygen, it just all right. Yeah, I don't want to get you in trouble with your wife, so we'll just, well, not talk about it anymore, OK? I'm telling you, I can sit here and talk to you forever, and I want to respect your time. I don't want to run too far over. So besides everything you've done every day, the tallest peak on every continent at this point, is that true? Sean: Correct. Still the seven summits, Joe: Yeah, Sean: Yep. Joe: Ok, and then along with that, you have this series of books that you're doing. Can you explain what that's about, what people find when they give each one of those books? Sean: Oh, sure, yeah, it's actually it's in the infant stages right now, but it's called the Seven Summits to Success. And I just signed an agreement with a publishing company. We're producing we're publishing the first one which is conquering your Everest, where it helps people bring them kind of into my life and understand how I've done what I've done, not just what I've done, what I've done, not what I've done I've done, not what I've done, but how I've done what I've done. Joe: Yeah. Sean: And it's also it's very similar to what I just I put together called the Summit Challenge, which is an online series of individual modules, seven different modules walking people through. Utilizing their own personal core values to accomplish things like self actualization, and at the end they essentially find their purpose and it came from the concept and the idea where after a keynote presentation, so many people would come up and say, that's a great story, but a handful would say, that's a great story. And then followed up with a question, but how did you do it? And then looking at Kilimanjaro again, the average success rate on the mountain is roughly forty eight percent, meaning fifty two people out of 100 don't even make it to the top. And like I said, this this July with my twenty first summit with groups and our groups are at 98 percent success rate, double that of the average. So I was thinking, OK, well what's what's the difference? And the difference is I've been subconsciously imparting what I've learned going through the cancer because my first goal was to crawl eight feet from a hospital bed to the bathroom, and then I ended up climbing twenty nine thousand feet to the top of the world. So all those little things, those little insights that I've learned, I've been imparting on people in my groups. So we do something every day that's different to help people get up there. In the main, the main understanding that they get is understanding what their personal core values are. Because once you hold fast to your personal core values and you have an understanding of a deeper purpose, nothing is going to get in your way. Joe: So in that kind of brings us back to when you left college and you decided that you're you're camping with your brother and then you decide you're going to do this thing to Everest. Right. Was that the beginning of this this portion of Shawn's life where you're going to do these things? But now there's an underlying what's the word I'm looking for this an underlying mission, which is you're you're doing this, I guess, because you like to challenge yourself. Obviously, you just want to you're so happy with the fact that you have been given this chats with Sean: Right. Joe: With what happened to you. You're going to make the most of it. So here I am, Sean Zwirner. I am so grateful that I went through two different types of cancer that easily either one of them could have killed me. One of them ruined one of my lungs. I'm still living. Not only that, but I'm going to make the most of every day. So you go to Everest, you do this, you accomplish that, and then you say, OK, that that's that's it. You went for the biggest thing on your first run. You would start out small. You just like, screw it, I'm going to Everest. And then after that, all these other things would be cakewalks, and I'm sure they're not. But then you did all seven summits. And now, though, is it the underlying mission is that you are you are the voice of cancer survivors and and what you do and I don't want to put any words in your mouth, so stop me at any moment. But is it like you're doing this to to to provide hope for them to say, listen, I not only did it twice, but I am living at the highest level of accomplishment and and I don't know what there's so many words I can think of that you just you want them to all think the same way, just keep pushing forward, get the most out of life. And I'm here to support you. And look at me. I've done it. I'm not just spewing words from a stage. I've literally gone out and done this. So I want you to be on this journey with me, both mentally, physically, if you can. Does that make sense or that I just destroy it? Sean: No, absolutely, I I wouldn't I wouldn't personally profess that I am the voice of survivors if others want to think that that that's great. But I wouldn't I wouldn't declare myself that. But I have found a deeper purpose. And it did start with Everest, because when I made it to the summit, I had a flag that had names that people touched by cancer on it. Joe: Yeah, I saw that, yep. Sean: And that was always folded up in my chest pocket, close to my heart as a constant reminder of my goals in my inspiration, and I planted a flag on the top of Everest. I planted a flag on the seven summits, the highest on every continent. And I also planted a flag at the South Pole and most recently at the North Pole. And I think it initially started. With the concept of I don't want to say infiltrating the cancer community, but getting there and showing them exactly what you said, you know, being up on stage and saying, hey, I'm not just talking the talk, I'm walking it as well. I know what it's like being in your situation. I know what it's like to have no hope. But I also know what it's like on the other side. And I also know what it's like to scream from the rooftops that there's there's a tremendous life after after cancer and it can be a beautiful life. So a lot of people who and like I said, it started off with cancer, but now it's it's reached out to anybody who's going through anything traumatic, which is with the state of the world, is it's everybody now. So with with any uncertainty, you can use that, especially with my cancer. It wasn't the end. It was the beginning. So what the world is going through right now, it's not necessarily the end. It's not uncertainty. How we come out of this on the other side is entirely up to us. And it's our choice. And we can use all the trials and tribulations and turn that into triumph of success if we want. It is all based on our own perspectives. Joe: So you come off of Everest and then there's your life now become this person who is going to continue to push themselves for because you obviously want to live this amazing life and you don't you just do love the adventure. You love the thrill of the accomplishment. I'm sure all of that stuff that any of us would love, like I went skiing for three days of twenty five years. I'm glad I'm still alive. Sit and talk Sean: They. Joe: Because trust me, I wasn't the guy you were talking about walking down the sidewalk and say, don't trip down. I was like, you're fifty nine. You break a bone now you're screwed, you're breakable. And I'm going over. These moguls go, oh my gosh, why am I here? How did you survive? How does someone like that survive financially? How do you survive financially that you now did that? Does that start to bring in sponsorships and endorsements and book deals and speaking deals, or is it just the snowball that happens? And how do you decide that this is the path your life is going to take? Sean: You would think so, and I've been approached by numerous corporations where the conversation went, something like me telling them, well, I really can't use your product up in the mountains and doing what I do. They say, OK, we'll just take the money we're going to give you by which you really use but endorse our product. So if I went if I went down that path, absolutely, I would be living the high life. Joe: Right. Sean: But because I'm a moral and ethical person, I think. Joe: So. Sean: It's not nearly what you probably think it is, I don't have people banging down my door for a movie. I don't have people banging down my door for a book. And I think it's because most of the media that we see on television is is paid for media. And every time I reach out to a production company or a marketing company or a PR company, they're usually the first question is what? What's your budget? OK, well, how about the story? How about helping people? Because like I said, every morning I write an affirmation down, in fact, or was it just yesterday was I will give more than I receive. I will create more than I consume. And I think most people who don't understand that think that you're living in a state of lack. And maybe I am. But I'm also incredibly grateful for everything we have. And do I want my story out there? Absolutely. But I don't need to make millions and millions of dollars on it. And what I what I want to do is take those millions and millions of dollars and take cancer survivors up Kilimanjaro every year. I'd love to do that three or four times a year. So I'm always looking for people who can who can jump in here and help me out and share my story with others to give back to help people and help them believe in themselves and help them find their purpose, their their inner drive, their inner. Joe: Is this is going to sound so stupid, so forgive me, so when you do this, this trek up Kilimanjaro, you do it in July, right? Sean: Yeah, yeah, Joe: It. Sean: People should arrive at Kilimanjaro International Airport July 20 for. Joe: Ok, is it cold up there? Sean: It depends. That's a it's not a stupid question, Joe: Really, Sean: But Joe: I Sean: That's Joe: Thought Sean: Like Joe: You were going to Sean: Asking. Joe: Be like, yeah, it's it's it's however many thousand Sean: Oh. Joe: Feet. What do you think, Joe? Sean: But that would be like me asking you, hey, what's it like in snowboarding? What's it going to be like in snowboarding? July? Twenty Fourth. Twenty twenty three. I mean, you have a rough estimate. Joe: I. Sean: So in going up Kilimanjaro, it's one of the most beautiful mountains I've been on because you go through so many different climactic zones getting up that you start off in an African rainforest where it can be a torrential downpour. It's always green, but it could be a torrential downpour or it can be sunny and the sun kind of filters through the canopy and you'll see these little streams of light coming to the camp, which is beautiful. And then the next day, it's it could be sunny or rainy, but it goes through so many different zones. You just have to be prepared for each one summit night. However, yes, it's tremendously cold. It can be zero degrees or maybe even minus 10. But with the right gear, you're going to be fine. I mean, there's there's no such thing as bad weather, just bad year. Joe: Well, here's a good question, and if someone was to go on this is how do they get that gear that they have to buy all that stuff? Sean: You can you can purchase it or you can rent it over there. I've used the same group of people for the past 18 months, and if you're if you're never going to use a zero degree sleeping bag again in your life, just rent it for 30 bucks. You don't spend three hundred four hundred dollars to buy one. Or if you do buy one and you're never going to use again, give it to my friends, the Sherpas of who use it all the time. Joe: Right, so basically somebody's going on this could, when they arrive there, get everything they need to make it happen. Sean: Well, except for your boots and your underwear, you probably don't want to rent me underwear. Joe: The point well taken. OK, go. So I want to ask you about the Big Hill challenge. Sean: So great, the big Hill challenge is actually an abridged version of the summit challenge, so some challenges this really in-depth twenty one week program where you take micro challenges and utilize something that you learn and just incorporate into your daily life. The Big Hill challenge is going to be a three week challenge where I take a group of one hundred people at a time and work them through three weeks of little micro challenges to help them along. Joe: Ok. Sean: And they're both based on understanding and utilizing your personal core values. Joe: Perfect. And these can be found on your website. Sean: Yeah, you can go to the summit challenge dotcom event eventually, you can go to the Big Hill challenge dotcom, Joe: Ok, Sean: But every Joe: Ok, Sean: One or dotcom. Joe: Ok, great, because I'll put all of this in the show, notes and everything else, I wrote this question down because I wanted to make it clear that besides your website, Shawn Sean: Like. Joe: Swane or Dotcom, you have the cancer Climategate. Sean: Correct. Joe: Can you explain can you explain that site to me and what the goal of that site is? Sean: So cancer climber, cancer climate Doug is actually the organization my brother and I founded that funds trips for cancer survivors to kill javu. Joe: Ok. Sean: And actually, if we raise, my goal is to raise about two million dollars to have a mobile camp for kids with cancer. Joe: Wow. That's Sean: Because Joe: Incredible. Sean: You there are camps all over the country, all over the world, but oftentimes you can't get the survive or you can't get the patient to the camp because of the compromised immune system. So I thought, well, what if there's a semi truck that brings the camp to the kids? Joe: Hmm, that's interesting. That's a really cool. And the reason I ask about coming on being cold is because Joel in my my better half of 20 some years survived breast cancer. It was lymph node sort of stuff. So taken out and be like God. But she hates the cold like she I would be so cold to do something like this with her. She just literally I mean, I don't know if she would go the last section to the summit because her cold do not mix. She's so happy here in Arizona and she never complains about the heat. So Sean: My. Joe: That's the only reason I ask that. So. Sean: My wife was born and raised in Puerto Rico, Joe: Ok. Sean: Forty forty years of her life, and she went with me. Joe: She. Sean: She did. She hated the last night, but she's so happy she didn't. Joe: So it's really just the one night that's the Sean: Yeah. Joe: Coldest. So it's one night out. How long does it take to get from where you started out in the rainforest to the. Sean: So the whole trip itself is a seven day trip up and down the mountain summit on the morning of the 6th, we leave the evening of the 6th, and then after we come off the mountain, we actually go we fly into the Serengeti and do a four day safari to the Serengeti. Joe: And when you're staying on the way up to the summit, or is it just like caps right Sean: But Joe: There? Oh, so that's it. There it is. Sean: The. Joe: That's right. So the people that are listening to this on the podcast, you'll have to look at the YouTube video later. But he's showing me the actual Sean: The. Joe: Tents and. And is everybody carrying their own tent? Sean: No, I actually, because I've been there so many times, we pay two porters per person to haul your gear up and all you have to worry about is your day pack some water, snacks, showers, your camera, sunscreen, hat, stuff like that. I don't want anybody carrying anything more than, say, twenty five thirty pounds up the mountain, but the sort of porters will actually give them the leave. After we leave camp, they'll pass us on the way.

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Business Motivation With Tony Whatley

Play Episode Listen Later Apr 21, 2021 68:36

I had an amazing discussion with Tony Whatley about working twice as hard as the next person, never giving up, building a business from scratch, selling his business for millions, working for a corporation and now his new life of helping entrepreneurs. Check out his book "Sidehustle Millionaire": https://amzn.to/3fXEwmd Also check out his Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/365driven and his website at https://365driven.com/. This was a fascinating chat with someone who has really done it...created a business and sold it for millions. So many people act as if they've done it but rarely do you find someone who has and is willing to share their knowledge to help lift others up. Enjoy and thanks so much for listening!! Joe Tony Whatley CEO - 365Driven.com Author of: Sidehustle Millionaire Website: https://365driven.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/365driven/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/365driven 365Driven Faceook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/365driven/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tonywhatley/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrETiHfxlI0Igei04hd1KVQ Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.libsyn.com Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to: https://joecostelloglobal.lybsyn.com Follow Joe: https://linktr.ee/joecostello Transcript Joe: All right, my guest is Tony Whatley. Tony, welcome to the podcast. Tony: Joe, good to connect and thank you for having me on the show, brother. Joe: Yeah, man, so you and I connected on Clubhouse and there is a tremendous amount of noise on the Clubhouse, as with any platform, once it takes off and you stuck out to me because you're not one of those people that are leaning against a rented Lamborghini or sitting in a hollow like a fuselage. So and when I listen to you talk in certain rooms on clubhouse, just something attracted me to wanting to connect more with you and learn about your story. So what I like to do with all my guests, as I like to go back, I think it's important for people that become successful like you, that the people that are listening to this and who will eventually watch the YouTube video of this a few days after I release this on the platform that they understand where you came from, because I think that's always really important to know that you just weren't handed all of these things. And this just with any anybody becoming an entrepreneur, it's not an easy journey. So can you kind of bring us forward to today, but tell us where you started? I know that you got into oil and you had a regular career, quote, regular giving air quotes for the podcast listeners. So if you could take us from the beginning, it would be awesome. Tony: Hey, thank you for the opportunity. So my life grew up lower middle class to hard, hardworking parents, blue collar careers. My mom was a cafeteria worker in the public schools for over 30 years, serving kids meals. She had a really strong heart. She loved everybody, didn't and didn't dislike anybody. Even some of the people I disliked, she was like she could find the love in everybody. Right. And my dad, Vietnam veteran U.S. Marines, and after the military, he worked in chemical refineries here in the UAE, an area the rest of his career. They're both retired now, doing well. And I just learned the value of hard work and having to learn to be grateful for what I had in the houses that I grew up in. Three houses specifically in Friendswood, Texas, is really the lowest income neighborhood in the entire city, which had affluence and also had lower middle class, lot more of the affluence. But, you know, fewer of us. And we would basically buy the crappiest house and the smallest house in the neighborhood and live in it while we flipped it for a few years, while we were restoring it, making it nicer. And eventually those small houses would become one of the nicer houses on the street. And then they would go by a little bit nicer, bigger house, because me and my sister, which we're growing just like the house sizes. And so I just thought that was a normal life. I saw that there was a affluence nearby. I could get on my bicycle and my skateboard and run around and look at these big houses that had a lot of windows on the front. Tony: I remember being a kid and I only had one window on the front of my first house. I grew up and it was the one that was a bay window on the living room. And I would watch my sister, who was a year and a half older, get on the bus every day, and I would wave to her just like my mom would be standing in the window. And that was always my view of the house, the first house I grew up in. And I just thought that every house just had one view. So I just thought that was normal. And I remember when I became old enough to go right around and leave the neighborhood and go see what was outside, I saw all these big houses with multiple windows. And I remember thinking to myself, I wonder what the view at that window looks like. I wonder what the view at that window looks like. And I could just envision myself running through this house and like looking through the windows and seeing if was a different view. And each one, as funny as thing is, as my wife is a realtor and sometimes I'll go do some showings with her and I'll we'll be at these large houses and I'll still look out every window. Even to this day. I'll still look out every window just to see what the view is. Joe: That's Tony: And Joe: Right. Tony: So I started to catch myself doing this. Like, why am I so fascinated by what's outside? Each one is like, oh, now I remember. Now I remember. Joe: Yeah. Tony: So yeah, a little bit about me Joe: Yeah, Tony: And. Joe: Yeah, so how did you get into so what did you did you go to college for some particular subject or degree or. Tony: I went to college for the pursuit of the six figure paycheck. That Joe: Let's Tony: Was that was the only reason Joe: Get. Tony: Because because I turned well, my first job was McDonald's at age 15. I worked there through high school. Then I was a busser at Olive Garden. And then I became a waiter there because I was good busser. And then I went to work at a steakhouse where I was another waiter. And then I became a manager of this brewery steakhouse and Clear Lake, Texas, and. I turned 18 and it really wasn't enough money to live on just just working at the restaurant, so I actually started working in construction just like my dad and and working in Texas and fire retardant clothing with a hard hat and 95 degree temperatures. It only took me a few summers of realizing that that's not where I wanted to be. I saw these these men with collared shirts walking into air conditioned rooms on the same facility. I was like, well, what do they do? All their engineers like? Well, man, I need to figure out how to work in the air conditioning. Yes. So I just said, hey, if you've got to go get a six figure career, that's what we tell you. You could be a doctor, a lawyer or an engineer. Well, I happen to love cars. So I said, well, maybe there's something in engineering that I can learn about cars and I can maybe go get that six figure paychecks. I became a mechanical engineer and I worked full time during that whole ordeal. I paid for school myself and actually the first person and both sides of my family to go to a university. My dad was the first one in his family to to move to a house that didn't have wheels attached to it. And so it was the first one to go to university. So I really applaud him for not going back to his hometown after he got out of the military and just decided, like, I don't want to grow up there. I don't want my kids Joe: At. Tony: To grow up there. We're moving somewhere else. So he went where the work was and he facilitated that change. And I felt like it was my obligation to do, you know, a little bit better for him, for the work that they put in. Isn't that what we all should be striving to is trying to do a little bit more than our parents Joe: Yeah, Tony: Who struggled Joe: Absolutely. Tony: To put us in that situation? And so, you know, me getting that degree took me seven years. I was I was going to school at night time, usually between six and 10 p.m. and sleep deprived and broke and stressed out and actually had more gray hair in college than I do now. Is is strange and really a sleep and stress. You know, it really does has a lot of physiological, you know, turmoil on us. And my relationship struggled back things I just didn't have any time to dedicate to those kind of things. But, you know, I never changed majors. I never quit. I did drop some classes along the way because I struggled and my grades were suffering at the point said I didn't quit. And that was a testament to me is like, I'm going to see this through because I actually had friends that joined mechanical engineering program. Honestly, even when they tell you that when you start freshman year of school, they said only 20 percent of you are going to graduate. And then they said, OK, well, how many of you have a girlfriend or boyfriend or you're married and raise your hand? Remember that orientation freshman year? And I said, OK, well, only 10 percent of you will graduate. And they said, how many of you are working full time job to do this? And I raise my hand again, I said, well, only 10 percent of you will graduate. So I was like out of a 20 percent pool, 10 percent of that and 10 percent had really bad odds. But you Joe: At. Tony: Know what? I'm pretty defiant. And I said, you know, I'm going to prove them wrong. I'm going to be the one that defeats the odds. And upon graduating, it was only 12 people in my class that had graduated that that semester. Joe: Wow, that's Tony: And Joe: Crazy. Tony: I was the only one that was working full time. So I really did defeat the odds. And I thought that I wanted to go into automotive career. But automotive in Detroit just didn't pay nearly as much as oil and gas in my hometown of Houston. So I decided to just take the paychecks in Houston. And that's why I started businesses in the automotive performance arena, because I still wanted to satisfy that itch. Joe: Right. So you ended up taking a full time job in the oil and gas world. What was that job? Tony: Earliest was a project engineer role working for a manufacturing facility, we built subsea equipment and pay pay back then was probably 45000 base salary, you know, entry level at that time. So for context, this was around 1997, 1998, and I was getting home at four thirty in the afternoon, like most people with a 40 hour job. We started really early in the morning, but I get home at four thirty and I felt like. After going through seven years of hustle and grind and working three jobs, I was still a waiter working construction as a mechanic and said this feels like a part time job. So here I am with my big boy salary and my big boy degree feeling like, OK, I guess I'm on my journey. I'm on my early journey to go chase the American dream. And I've done it. And and I was just bored. I was Joe: Yeah. Tony: Bored and I would be really honest with myself. I'd look at my small apartment and, you know, I bought myself a nicer car, bought a Pontiac Trans Am when I graduated. So that that was like my reward to myself. Joe: Uh. Tony: And I felt like this is this isn't enough. This is not enough. And I got a lot of energy. I got a lot of time. So I actually went back and waited tables at the restaurant that I was a manager of because I had promoted one of my friends to be the manager when I left. And I called him up and say, hey, man, do you think I could just come pick up shifts and bartending and waiting? He's like, hell, yeah, dude, you're awesome. Like, come back any time. I don't even need to put you on the schedule to come pick up one. And so for me that meant seven nights a week. I just I put the apron on and people lot of the people that were still working there knew who I was. And I graduated and that's why I left. And to go, why are you back? And it's like because I'm not where I want to be. Like, I can sit home and sit on the couch and watch TV or I can come back and make an extra 150 bucks a night. Tony: So I chose to go suck up my pride and go do that. You know, his thing is I've never I've never felt shame for doing what was necessary to get what I needed to do. And I think a lot of times people put ego or self-importance above what they need to do. And, you know, I was fine if I was cleaning the bathrooms at McDonalds, I did it the best I could find, mopping floors. That is the best I could. And even as a kid, I go back and some of my long term friends like you just never complained. You just did what was required. Like football coaches would tell you something. You just do it. I've never been the complainer because I watched my parents work so hard and we literally were living inside of a flip house the entire time, and I just know that blood, sweat and tears is not just some a cliche phrase. And I learned from my dad like, hey, you know, he's a combat vet. Like, you should see what I had to do when I was 18, son, Joe: Right. Tony: You know, like like suck it up, Joe: Yep. Tony: Go do the work. Don't complain. You have it better than a lot of people in this world. And that's the mentality I adopted as a kid. And I grew into a young adult and I still carry that with me today. Joe: So you're at this job, you're doing part time at the restaurant. And when do you decide and is the first side hustle that you start? Is it is it less one tech? Is that what it was? Tony: Now, actually, my first side hustle. It's going to get really nerdy, but I learned how to build electronic circuits with resistors, a little bread boards and soldering, and I was kind of geeking out on this and I learned how to design a device that you could plug into an engine harness on a on a Camaro or a Corvette or a TransAm that would fool the NOx sensors and give you about 10 horsepower. So it basically would give it a little bit more ignition time. And it was a plug and play thing. And I knew how to design it and I built it. And so I would go to RadioShack back when those were everywhere, Joe: Yeah. Tony: Buy all the resistors and I would buy these little circuit boards and little boxes and the wiring and I would buy the GM harnesses from the parts counter at the local Chevy dealership. And I get home and I would bust out my little kit and I would solder things and it would take me about take me about an hour to build each one of these units. And I had about thirty dollars in parts. I can sell over 75 bucks. And so it didn't scale very well, obviously, because there was only a limited market, you know, I mean, hundreds of people that maybe wanted to buy that. And I can only build two or three a night without running at a time. And so that was my first online business. I actually built a little one page landing page is Joe: Mm Tony: What we Joe: Hmm. Tony: Call it now. But it was actually that's all my capability was back then. Joe: Yeah. Tony: And I sold I mean, I could sell six or seven a week and it was like good beer, money or aside, money was better than waiting tables, to be honest, because I could still make the same amount of time, but I could be at home. So that allowed me to leave the restaurants. And then I started building Web pages. I taught myself how to code HTML about really simple Web pages and do graphic design with Photoshop and take some good photos and build Web pages. Because I started that. A lot of people out there, a lot of automotive performance shops and manufacturers didn't have Internet presence at that time because they didn't have a website. So it's like, well, shit, I could trade my skills for car parts. So it's like a barter system is like Joe: Right, Tony: I can get free car parts Joe: Right. Tony: Of a website. And that funded my car and my racing hobby. Right. And so I got known for building these little simple one to three page websites, which I would have to basically layout on Photoshop visually first and then slice them and make the little buttons and like re rebuild those slices into like what looked like a Web page on the. There is a whole lot harder than it is nowadays and I probably got 100 of those websites over a period of two years. And so I got known as the guy that could build car stuff websites and I would get paid or I would trade car parts. And I was hanging out on other communities at the time and they weren't being managed very well. You know, they were they're not paying their server bills. Things were getting crashed. And sometimes all the content we create would be gone. You know, after you built all this, how to articles and you're writing all the stuff that's free of user generated content. And and finally we approached the owner of that Web site and we said, hey, we see you've got advertisers. We know how much you charge because some of my friends, advertisers have built their websites like, why aren't you paying your server bill? It's like it's like three hundred dollars a month, like what's going on. And rather than take that as constructive feedback from some of his best supporters, like a group of us, he said, well, if you guys think you can do a better job, go start your own. Joe: Mm hmm. Tony: And it never even was a thought in my mind until he said that he challenged me again, like you don't challenge me. I'm the kind of person if you challenge me, I'm going to go do it. I'm going to prove you wrong. And so I said, well, man, I could build websites and I don't know much about servers, but I'm pretty sure I can figure out how to load some software on there into a server. That's pretty easy. If I could read a how to. And so that's what we did is like, you know, two of us started a website that was at least one tech. That was November 2001. So 20 years from now and this year. And we just started as a hobby. Dude, it's like, you know, the Set-aside Kim, it's not reliable. Let's just go start our own place to hang out. And my partner, John and I, we just thought, you know, if we can make 500 dollars a month, which is the Karno to the Trans Am I had and the Karno to the Camaro SS that he had. So that would be pretty cool to be like we would have a free car just to hang out and a place to talk about cars. And I've got a big boy job and a salary and you've got your own too. And we don't need this and it's just something we want to have fun with. And I like to illustrate that because, you know, you know, shocker. Tony: Yeah. That thing went on to earn hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in profit. And we sold it for millions in 2007, but was never intended to make millions of dollars. You know, a lot of people are like, oh, did you were you a visionary? And could you stop this? And it's like, no, we just wanted to make five hundred dollars a month. But the main difference, why we became the number one in the category and why we really dominated that entire automotive form seemy we we set so many bars and taught those other forums and the BMW sectors and the the Porsche sectors, we taught them how to monetize the audience. We, we taught them how to build a strong community and attract advertising revenue. So I had clients like Chevrolet and Cadillac and Goodyear and big name brands that were paying me to advertise on my website. So the main difference is that we treated it like a business. What started as a hobby, we started seeing real dollars come in and within within six months we're making 10000 dollars profit a month and we're like, whoa, I think we need to go get one of those. What are they called an LLC or I think we need to go do that. And I think we may need to create a separate bank account instead of just paying ourselves Joe: Mm Tony: Like in Joe: Hmm. Tony: Our personal account, like. So I love to share that because I want people understand that you don't have to have all the answers. You don't have to be the best entrepreneur ever. You don't have to overdose on YouTube and podcasts and reading books and attending seminars. You've got to just start you just Joe: Yeah. Tony: Got to start and you're going to improve with time. Joe: Yeah, so the important things I want to touch upon about this before we leave the subject about Ellis one tech is how did you get the advertisers? Did you actually one of you go out as a salesperson, whether it was phone calls or in person, or did they actually care about you and come to you and say, hey, we heard about your site, we want to advertise. Tony: And this is a little bit going back to we hear about personal branding all the time, right? Nowadays, it's Joe: You Tony: Like Joe: Know. Tony: The buzz, personal branding. You've got to build a personal brand. Well, I was already doing that, and so was he, because we were active contributors to an existing community. So to put that in today's context, we have Facebook groups, you've got online communities. Go join those communities and actually be a contributing, valuable member. That's always helping people by answering their questions and giving encouragement and giving advice and sharing your resources and sharing your network. And then you start to build that personal brand of being someone that creates value rather than asking for all the stuff. And whenever it comes time for you to go launch your own community or write a book or launch a podcast or whatever, that's your side of the fence. Guess what? You're going to have a really strong group of supporters of, you know what, this person I like them because they're always helping and they've always never asked me for anything. So here's the thing they're finally asking me for. I'm going to go support that. And that's the way it worked. And I didn't understand that. It's just my nature to be that person. I'm the person that I follow on social media or a forum or anything that I'm spending time on. If I see somebody ask a question that I know the answer to, I'm not going to be. The person goes, well, you know what? Somebody else can answer that because I don't have time or I'm just super important. And Joe: Mm hmm. Tony: Oh, that's too trivial of a question for me to answer. I'll let some beginner answer that one for them. Know, guys, if I'm scrolling and I actually see someone that needs help, I respond. If I have the time, I respond and and it takes me a few seconds. But those few seconds of me investing into that pay dividends. If there's a few seconds here, a few seconds or a few seconds there, and people start to see because what you don't understand is on a social community, especially on the Internet, is that thousand people will see that response over a period of time. Let's say you're in a Facebook group and somebody asks a really good question and you happen to have the answer, even if you think it's trivial or a beginner. But you answer it, thousands of people will see that exchange of information. They will see who asked the question, they will see who answered the question. And if they start to see this pattern showing up over and over, hey, Tony is always helping people. He's always answering questions. You don't think that's a building you some kind of a personal brand capital that you'll be able to use later on if needed, because you may never deploy that, but if needed, it's going to be there for you. So, you know, that was how we built the advertisers because we were helping the manufacturers on other sites by answering some of the technical questions. Tony: I would buy those parts. I would install those parts. I knew how to. I would give the good and the bad of it and do a little review of those things. And we just answered questions on Web sites. And when it came time to go launch our own website, we were such contributors that they're like, you know, we're going to go see what they're doing, what's what's that's about. And we'd already established relationships with people who are willing to advertise that we actually had ten advertisers in the first week. And I was not the cold caller. My partner, John, he owned a recruiting, a technical recruiting agency, and he loved to call people on the phone. I was like, that is not me. I will build the websites. I will create the graphics, I will set up the servers. I will run things at a technical level like an engineer. And I'm a project manager by trade. By that point is like, oh, I'll plan things out and execute. And he was the one I was going to make the calls. I was OK emailing, but I still even to this day, I don't like making cold calls. And I don't I just don't. Joe: All right, so the timeline now is you're doing your day job project, managing in the oil and gas arena, and you have this website with your friend and you are selling advertising, you're building. And it's basically if it if it looked the way it did, then that it does now. It's literally a forum that you guys built. But Tony: Yes. Joe: Now it's it's probably expanded. Where I see it has the marketplace and it has all these other pieces of it that's helping to build that whole infrastructure on that site. Tony: Yeah, definitely, we we had access to all the activity logs of the forms that we created so we could see the response of the individual categories that we put in the community and the classified section. We were actually one of the first ones to do a class of five sections in a forum and an automotive forum, especially because we realized that hotrods have used parts to sell and they always want to upgrade or they're looking for a better this and that. So we put this classified in there so people can list their used parts, not new parts, because if they want to sell new parts, they need to be an advertiser. But the used parts, we're fine. And we saw that that really increased the the longevity of their visits by about 40 percent. And just give you guys a context of how busy this site was. On average, we had about 100000 unique visitors per day. Joe: Same. Tony: So. So if you're thinking about a speed shop or a car dealership or anything like that, imagine with a hundred thousand people walking through your front door every single day and spending an average of about 20 minutes, looks like that's how we were able to generate the advertising revenue because we had the data logs, we had the Google analytics and we said, hey, what are you guys spending on magazines and television ads? And they go, We're spending 5000 for a half page ad. And this automotive magazine, OK, cool that the automotive magazine has a circulation of about 250 copp, 250000 copies per month. We see that in two and a half days. And we're going to charge you 10 percent of what they charge. And they were like, whoa, like this is a no brainer. And said, even better, you don't have to give us content 30 days in advance ahead of publication because there's that waiting period for publishers to print magazines Joe: Yeah. Tony: And they have to have the content editors and make it all look pretty and put it all in the pages and number of the pages. And I said, so if you wanted to do and unveil of a product, you could actually show up that day and your representatives could log in with their account and post a video or something that they've created that day. And you could get real time feedback from the people who see it and give you questions and maybe even pull out their credit card. So, you know, forums and things like the things I created, you know, we were really were the the commercial demise of magazines in that regard. And we've seen the magazines, the publications struggle. But here's the thing. As much as I love magazines and I was a contributing editor for most of the automotive magazines for over a decade, what they failed to do was adapt. They had the brand name, they had the readership, but they were like, you know, we are super important and we're the media and we are magazines and nobody's ever going to replace magazines. And we're just super awesome in that forum stuff. That's just a waste of time Internet fad. And really, this is the kind of conversations that we would have with these publishers, say, hey, we're trying to partner up with you. How about we build out your forum and you've got the audience base? You could start mentioning it in your magazines and, you know, get them to drive to the forum and we can help you monetize that. And they're like, oh, no, we're not interested in that. Our business model is public catering and our ad rates are much higher than yours. So we make a lot more revenue than you and guys like me put them out of business. Guys like me sold my brands for millions of dollars when they went bankrupt. So that's a good lesson and adaptability and understand that you have to go where technology's telling you to go. Joe: And same with the newspapers, right? They didn't move Tony: Oh, Joe: Quick Tony: Yeah. Joe: Enough. Same thing. Yeah, Tony: They have the audience Joe: I Tony: And Joe: Know. Tony: They don't use it. Joe: It's crazy. Tony: The Joe: Ok, Tony: Men had it. Joe: So I don't want to harp on this subject too long, but I want to make sure that the audience understands the the exit route and how that happened out of this. And so still, at this point, you still have a dual career, right? You're still working and you still have this website. It wasn't like this Web site took off so much that you decided that, OK, I'm not doing the day job anymore. Tony: Now, that's one of the things people ask me is why didn't you quit your job? You know, when we were really the last two years that we're on this website, we're making about hundred thousand a year profit and. People are like, well, why don't you quit because at that point, my job was probably making 150, 175 range and I said, well, I also work offshore. I did a lot of offshore construction. So sometimes I was gone 28 days, sometimes with Internet, sometimes without. And so me being a project manager and engineer, I was very well adept at writing processes and procedures and systems that other people could follow. That's what I did for a career. And I said, I don't need to fire myself. So how can I create processes and systems to be able to hand these to other people that can do these in my absence? Because I don't can't guarantee if I'm going to be there or not. And so that's what I did, is we started to build a team at about 75 people on the team and we paid them in perks and free car parts and sponsorships and sometimes, you know, ten, ninety nine dollars just to do certain tasks. And that's what I did, is I fired myself. And what that did is allowed me to use my website as a consumer now. So I get to be at the same ground level and see what the problems were and what we could improve on and how we can add more features to attract more eyeballs and more time on screen. Tony: And a lot of the things that Facebook and Instagram do nowadays, we were doing a long time ago. We just had to do it manually versus, you know, with A.I. So that's what we do, is we try to stay focused on how can we increase engagement, how to increase eyeballs, how to increase time on screen, and what was the hot topics and what are the things that we can do to create content that was going to keep them coming back as the value proposition that needed exist for them to be entertained or get some information. And there's a reason my website is still existing and I sold it. And still it is still the number one General Motors website to this day. It's been 20 years. But the thing is that I didn't quit the job because I didn't need to. And it goes back to that scarcity mindset that I grew up with, that if I can work the career and make, you know, 150000 plus like, why would I quit that? Because, one, we were the top of the market share. We're number one. And they're always trying to people trying to take us down or literally hundreds of copies of our website, always trying to take us down. But we are way ahead of these people. Right. And so I had the market share me working one hour a day versus eight hours. There was not going to ATX my revenue. It wasn't going to increase revenue at all. I had the market share. Joe: Mm hmm. Tony: So the hours versus multiplication just wasn't there. Right. I was realistic about that. I could have been lazy and played PlayStation at that time or Xbox 360 and built cars and done nothing but. But why would I do that? Is like in I wasn't where I wanted to be at the time, so I was OK stacking money, working to career that also I had to struggle to get that engineering degree. And for a long time I felt like I didn't want to waste that effort. You know, I built it. I spent this time and investment and the hardship I explained earlier and I said, you know what? I don't want to waste my degree. I was pursuing the corporate executive path in oil and gas eventually. So I was very good at my career and I was very good at entrepreneurship at the same time. And I always find that was fascinating because I I saw my entrepreneur friends on one side of the fence and I saw my employee friends on the other side of the fence. And the mindsets are completely different between the two. And I would try to cross over. So I was what you would call an intrapreneur, someone who's an entrepreneur that works within a corporation to try to always enhance, improve, evolve. And I was always met with resistance, especially the larger the company names game. I was working for major oil companies in my later career. I mean, I left in 2015 and it was always like, hey, if it isn't broke, don't fix it. You know, this is the way we've always done it. Like all these things that Joe: Mm Tony: Make Joe: Hmm. Tony: Corporations collapse. Joe: Same old thing, yeah. Tony: Same thing over and over and over. And it drove me nuts. And but yeah, that's that's why I never quit, man. I was good at doing both. Joe: Ok, so how did you how did the approach happen to buy the website? Tony: And that's a funny one, because at the time, very few people understood the amount of volume and dollars that was coming through a business model like that, because they just thought, oh, it's a cool car side. People are hanging around and making, you know, talking about cars. They're probably making, you know, 50000 a year doing this. You know that that's probably what they're thinking. Joe: And Tony: Nobody Joe: I have Tony: Knew. Joe: To I have to make the point that when you did this, it was hard to do what you did. It was not the drag and drop and all of Tony: Uh. Joe: That stuff. It was not easy because I grew up I was telling a story the other day. I used to teach companies how to use an Internet browser like Tony: Oh, yeah, Joe: I Tony: You Joe: If Tony: Know Joe: I'm old Tony: You Joe: Enough Tony: Know, Joe: That Tony: We're from Joe: The Tony: The same era. Joe: Well, I'm probably older than you. But anyhow, you you did this at a really hard time. And when you're talking about the you know, the construction of the site and then on top of it being smart enough to keep all of the logs and Google analytics, I mean, it's hard to use today. I can't even imagine what it was like when you were trying to pull the data out when you did it. So I just wanted to make that point. I didn't mean to interrupt you, but I think people need to understand Tony: Now. Joe: That this you have to put it into the context of when it happened. And it was not easy at the time that you did it. Tony: Yeah, yeah. For context, I sold the website in 2007 and I was 34 and multimillionaire and Facebook and Instagram came out two years later. Joe: There you go. Tony: See, so everything that you see now, easy, like I could just do a video and Joe: The. Tony: I could do targeted ads and I can find all these people like we didn't have that we had we had to rely on joint ventures with media and racing events and person type events to be able to to really build the snowball of momentum. Joe: Mm hmm. Tony: There was no like buying targeted ads. And it's super easy nowadays. Like, really, there's the excuses nowadays for entrepreneurs to not have success is like it just makes me laugh. It's like, come on, it's never been easier. The information has never been easier to find. All the stuff is being shared nowadays, which we had to go learn ourselves the hard way. And, you know, so the approach going back to the question of the approach. So it wasn't uncommon for people to casually email us saying, hey, you think about selling your website and. We never really thought about it, to be honest, because we're doing pretty well. We didn't need to sell it and we were really taking a lot of the profits, rolling it back in the company to make it grow because we had careers. And so they would always just just out of curiosity, once someone was, hey, would you like to sell your website? We always would entertain the question. We would say, well, what do you think it's worth? Because we're curious ourselves. Like we Joe: All Tony: Didn't know anything about Joe: Right. Tony: Valuation. Joe: All right. Tony: Like, what do you think it's worth? Like what's your offer? And most of it would be like, you know, I was thinking like Dr. Evil. We know when he talked about the one million dollars like this and it was like it. Going to go watch that movie if you haven't. You know what I'm talking about, but they'll be like, how about a hundred thousand dollars? Joe: Right. Tony: Thinking like, man, we sold advertising packages for bigger than that, you know, like, do you want to buy an ad package or do you want to buy the website? Joe: Right. Tony: You know, and and it just shows you that they had no clue. And that probably happened a dozen times over a period of quarters. And we just kind of laughed about it like they don't know. And we're not going to tell them what we're making because it's just they just have no clue. And and this is one company came in and they their eventual buyers were a little bit different in their approach. And they said, hey, we're looking at acquiring the top level forums and each brand marquee. We've already bought this one, this one, this one and this one. And all of those brands we were well recognized with, like it was the best BMW side, the best Volkswagen site, like top level names on par with the one I'd built for General Motors. I was like, whoa, if those people sold, then maybe there's some there's something to this one. Right. Joe: Mm hmm. Tony: I remember having this conversation with John. And as a man, we're kind of getting long in the tooth on this. I want to go build on some different projects. I want to do something different. And, you know, what do you think? And he's like, we're both on board. Like, you know, if they make us this offer and we came up with a number. Right. And I said, if they come up to this and we can negotiate it, I think we both agree that will sell as I call. So we responded back and said we'd entertain this offer. You know, what kind of questions would you like answered? And they actually asked if they could put their Google Analytics pixel into our website so they could see for themselves if we're full of shit or not. I said, OK, no problems. I'll put it in there to help them put it in there. And then about two weeks later, they called back and they said, we're at it, have a discussion with you guys about the moving forward. And I said, OK, cool. And so their initial offer was double our number that we had come up with in our mind. Joe: Oh, my gosh. Tony: And we're like, oh. So we had to contain our excitement, first of all. And act like, oh, OK, well, we'll consider Joe: Right. Tony: That we're going to have a talk about that and we'll get back to you. And the first thing I said is like, John, we need a lawyer, we need it. We need to get an attorney. That's a good with M&A and we need to have some conversations with him on these early contracts, negotiation things. And of course, luckily, he had a good friend of his that specialize that in Chicago. And we got on the phone we talked a couple of times, went through some details of the preliminary offer. And he's like, so you're going to counter right? Or like, well, should we? And he's like, yeah, there are first offers, always the lowest Joe: Mm Tony: Offer, Joe: Hmm. Tony: Like, what do you want to make? And so we said, well, what about this? No, it's like worst they can say is no. And so we put that back out to them and they said, sounds good to us. And Joe: Wow. Tony: We're like, damn it, maybe we should ask Joe: All Tony: For some Joe: Right. Tony: More. So of course, we're not going to be greedy because it was already double our number in our mind. And we sold them and then they said yes, and we're so cool. We went down that road and it was about a better one year due diligence phase of going through all the accounting and understanding, all the systems and processes in place and negotiating the contract and the details. And that was a really, I would say, a semi stressful situation, Joe: Yeah, Tony: Because Joe: I can imagine. Tony: Even though that the millions of dollars is looking in your mind, you don't really think it's real. Actually, because I actually interviewed somebody on my show yesterday. It sold a nine figure exit and he and I had very similar, even though he was a whole different range of the money. I made very similar psychological things going through your mind because it seems fake until you see it in your actual bank account. Joe: Yep. Tony: And even when you initially see it in your bank account, it still feels a little fake until you, like, spend it a little bit, you're like it's real, OK, they're not going to call me back and say, oh, we made a mistake. We need to have our money back. Right. Joe: All right. Tony: So does these weird things that we go through the exit companies and only one percent of businesses actually sell. And to hear this kind of experience is very rare. But I wanted to be really transparent and show people that because it's a it's very intrusive to go through that your books better be damn right. If you think you can lie about things that your company is doing or not doing, you're going to get discovered during that because lawyers get involved and they're digging through all kinds of stuff. I mean, they're literally looking for ways to devalue your company and you're looking for ways to add value to your company during that one year process. So you just got to be transparent about things and keep your books in order. That's the main thing. And learn how to build valuation in your companies. And it just turns out we were just doing everything right. We had the recurring revenue business model. We had presold ads. We were cash flow positive. We had proven database of, you know, information of users and their emails and our names, which increased valuation based on customer acquisition cost. It would cost them to go find those people in the same market. So we had a lot of things that were checking the boxes. And it was also a tech platform with a really strong brand, which also increased valuation. So we just did everything the right way. And the reason we did that is because we just did things like business. Again, it wasn't a hobby to us. Joe: Yep, so you get to the final stage, it gets sold, they buy it, you sell it, you're still working. How long did you stay at your job once you exited this company? Tony: Another eight more. Joe: Eight more years. Tony: Eight more years. Joe: Wow, Tony: Yeah, Joe: That was Tony: I Joe: Not the Tony: Actually Joe: Answer Tony: Had Joe: I expected. Tony: I had spin offs, I had verticals that I created from that acquisition, I had a retail company selling wheels for cars because, one, we didn't have an advertiser that was selling wheels. And I was referring a lot of business out the door. And I said, you meant I could just do the buying and get another LLC and create my own wheel company and sell the wheels. And, you know, that became a seven figure business on its own. And when the website came up for sale, I said, do you guys want the retail side? Or like, oh, now we just want the data. We want the assets. We don't want anything to do with retail. They're a marketing house. Joe: Yes. Tony: I was like, so I could just create another LLC and keep this business to myself. And that's and so I did. So I still had a seven figure business even after that. That was part time that I enjoyed that kept me in the industry, kept me relevant, kept me engaged in cars. And so but I was also in that pursuit of becoming an executive with an oil and gas. That was my my goal. And I was really good at navigating that. And I made it towards making about 250000 a year in salary. And and near the end of that, I started to realize that the oil industry just doesn't treat people as good as they should. And I started to have to be that person that had to make tough decisions on employing certain people. And even though they were high performers and I got to see a lot of shady things in H.R., the things that are unwritten that we always hear about, like ageism and like cutting people before their pension fully Joe: Oh, Tony: Hits Joe: Man. Tony: Because, you know, it's a it's a it's a it's a financial decision. It's not personal. And I get to see this multiple times. And it started to impact me. And it's like, you know, I don't want to support another industry that does not support people, that we're we're basically disposable. And when I was young and disposable and making less money, it was very easy to find me a replacement job because I was it was inexpensive and unexperienced as I started to make, you know, multiple six figures. And in my 40s, if I were getting laid off, it was typically a six to eight month sitting on the bench waiting for the next bus to come around type scenario. And a lot of times I was having to fire myself and put people in my my desk that was ten years younger than me and 100000. I was less income than made just to keep the bench warm. For me to return at the market turned around. I was like, I don't like being in this situation. And so, you know, I took a near-death experience for me, racing cars to finally realize, like, I don't want to go back to that and I need to go create more impact in the world. And that's what I did, is I decided I need to go teach people what I have passions for. And one was cars, which I built a lot of success in cars. The other thing has always been entrepreneurship. And so I said, OK, that's how I'm going to best impact this world, is teach people business and confidence around being an entrepreneur. And that's what I've been doing since 2017. It took me two years, even after leaving my job, to think about what I really wanted to do. You know, was it was it a nonprofit, wasn't a philanthropy? What is it that I wanted to do? And for me, I just love to be a teacher, so that's why I do what I do now. Joe: So do you. I've thought about this question a lot in regards to you, if this if the site didn't do what it did and you didn't sell it and make that kind of money. Have you ever thought about where you would be today? Tony: Yeah, I would still be working in the oil and gas industry for sure. Joe: So Tony: For sure. Joe: With viewers, listeners and viewers that will hear this. What would you say to them if they were to say, well, he I mean, you did the work, it wasn't like you got lucky, but you got lucky in the sense that someone wanted to buy it. Right. I mean, and and Tony: Yeah, it wasn't for sale, Joe: Right. Tony: So you're right. Joe: So someone saying, well, what's the chances of that happening to me? Or how do I if that doesn't happen, then I do have to just continue on the path that I'm on. So what would you say to them about not getting a lucky break like that? How do you create that break for yourself to to then become this entrepreneur and service the world and do good things? Tony: I mean, honestly. My book, Side Hustle Millionaire, teaches people how to take the ideas for businesses and create reality out of those, because I was always ask, hey, what do you think about this business idea and what do you think about this? And the thing is that too many people take pride in having ideas. They think that there's their super smart. They think they're genius because they have this idea. And, you know, you and I both know that thousands of people die every single day with brilliant ideas and take them to the grave that were never materialized. And so ideas really aren't worth anything until you take any actions and see some results from those. So don't give yourself too much credit if you're listening to this or watching this, if you've got an idea, unless you try it and it's OK to fail, sometimes failing is actually the best lessons. But for people who are employed when you're all your bills are paid, you need to start thinking about what the number is and the number is what is the bare necessities. You need to be able to sustain your lifestyle or even downgrade your lifestyle. Tony: Let's be honest, because a lot of times people live above their means. What is the number? And I'm thinking a dollar number. What is the actual number like? Take your rent or your mortgage, your car, note your insurance, your food, your utilities, and put them on a spreadsheet and go, this is the number. And if it's 2000 or 3000 or 10000, whatever that number is, you need to have that number in your mind. Because once you start to make a profit in your side business that meets or exceeds that number, you need to really force yourself into a decision moment. Like you need to know that number is so important to know that number, because a lot of times we find that side hustlers and people that do things on the side will exceed that number, but never force themselves into decision mode. Because the question that you have to have in this decision is, should I just drop my career and go full time with this? And I have two reasons to do that. Right. Like you heard me give examples of why I didn't leave because it wouldn't have increased my income Joe: At. Tony: Like I was the number one in the category. I had all the market share. The extra hours would not have translated to extra dollars. It made no sense for me to leave. Now, if you do have a company and you realize that, hey, if I can contribute eight extra hours, maybe nine hours, if you have a commute to go to work, if I can commit nine extra hours a day to this business, what are the numbers look like? Does it scale? Does it make a higher profit? Because I'm already at the number I could actually leave right now. I actually have a parachute on my back that I could deploy that it's going to replace my salary already. So why am I staying here? And if the answer is like, yeah, extra hours will increase the business, it will also increase your freedom and your confidence. And most people really don't understand the confidence that entrepreneurship brings because I've never experienced that. There's something beautiful about commuting to your coffeemaker and walking to your office and you're in your own house, in your pajamas Joe: Aymen. Tony: And and waking up like you fire up the email, you go, Oh, I made three thousand dollars last night while I was asleep. I mean, it just sounds so unrealistic. But the reality is, is realistic realistically, when you start to surround yourself with people who are doing it and who could teach you how to do that, your eyes just start to open up and you go, wow, I remember thinking, eighty five dollars an hour at work was like a lot of money because that's close to two hundred thousand dollars salary. You know, I remember negotiating like they wanted to give me eighty, eighty dollars an hour and I was like, I want nineteen. OK, how about we meet in the middle eighty five. I mean I was at 180, 200 range. If you do the if you do the math. And the thing is, is there's this perception that multiple six figures is a lot of money and corporate and it is because I get it, the average income in the United States is 67000 a year. Some people will never make 100000 hours. It's sad to me because I can make that in a weekend now. Tony: And had you asked me twenty years ago if that was possible with a laugh, it's like there's no way you can make a hundred thousand dollars in a week. And that just sounds stupid, like you're dreaming. You get rich quick, you join some kind of network marketing or whatever, like it's bullcrap, Tony. But now I've done it a couple of times, like why did I ever have these limitations on income and why did that exist? And you start to think about where that comes from. It's because of your supervisors, from your parents is from your teacher, your professors. They're telling you what you they think you're worth based on what the market will bear. Oh, you're a mechanical engineer. Well, you can make one hundred fifty thousand dollars if you work twenty years. So, OK, so your self-worth becomes well, I can make one hundred and fifty thousand dollars by the time I'm sixty, and maybe they'll give a bonus to me and my last five years as an attaboy and I'll get a Rolex. And Joe: Right. Tony: Why the hell we give Rolex is to people that are retiring. Like what do they need to be on time anymore. Joe: Exactly. Tony: Like thank you. What, why don't you give me the Rolex when I'm twenty, so I'm always on time. Right. So a lot of weird things. They were created in these boundaries and and so people tend to define their self-worth based on a limitation of their salary. Their profession, which is really sad, is really sad. Joe: Yeah. Tony: And none of these limitations exist in reality. It's that there's no such thing as a limitation. And when you start to hang around people that think like I do, you're going to challenge everything you believe. And it's going to be really hard to to unwind a lot of the things that were were screwed up with. But it's crazy. The reality of. It really exists. Joe: Yeah, and this is why I do my podcast and I openly admit it to people, is it's because it's a selfish endeavor for me to be able to hang out with people like you and just virtually rub elbows. And at some point, hopefully we meet in person. But that's the goal, is to change the mindset. I watched my father just work himself to death. He literally was. I forget if it was two weeks away from retiring and had a stroke Tony: Oh, Joe: And Tony: Man. Joe: Was paralyzed on his right side. I watched him work harder than any man I ever watched. And I just I don't want to see that. I don't want to experience that. So I appreciate that. So you jumped ahead on me, which is great, because I want to know. So here's twenty seventeen. Your you decide that you're going to do you know, you're Tony: The Joe: Going Tony: Coaching Joe: To do Tony: And the Joe: The Tony: The Joe: Coaching. Tony: Community building, yeah. Joe: So when did you decide to write Side Hustle a Millionaire. When did you decide that. Well I have to write a book on this because that's a big endeavor. I everybody I hear that has written a book says it's probably one of the hardest things I ever had to do. Tony: You know, the funny thing about writing the book. Side Hustle Millionaire was a idea in my mind five years before I actually wrote it. Five years, because I knew even because I was around 40 at that time and I was like, you know, I need to do something that helps more people, you know, before the Internet flex on Instagram, I was the one that would post driveway photos with 10 cars and things like that, because, one, I had some insecurity issues and self validation things that I had to work through. And I didn't ever feel like I belong with the rich people. And I had to prove that I belong with them and a whole lot of weird things that we grow up through. But besides, the point is that as I wanted to start teaching people how I got those cars, because the only people that were benefiting from that knowledge were my friends and like people I worked with people within my close proximity because one, I didn't like being on camera. I didn't like being on stage. I didn't like my recorded voice. And I had a lot of insecurities around that, too. And I became a highly successful kind of in the background, and I was fine with that. So anytime people were like, oh, you should go write a book and you could teach all the stuff, I'd be like, Oh man, but I'm so busy. You know, I've got a kid and a wife and I've got a career and I've got this retail company. And I would just make a a list of bullshit excuses of things why I wasn't really serving the purpose that I am on today. Tony: And it was all stem based on the fear of criticism. Right. And so even when I go through this near-death experience, racing cars and deciding that I need to impact the world, I was still approaching it from a I need to make impact. But I was still being cowardly about my way of doing that, my method. And so I said, you know what, I could write a book. And that doesn't mean I have to be on a stage or a camera or radio or TV and I can just write this book and it'll be a good way that's affordable. It's portable, and I can get what's in my mind out to thousands of people. And so I decided in really November of 2017 I'm going to write a book and I validated the idea and use my social media to ask what they would want from me. And I asked them what questions they would want answered. I was really good at using my entrepreneurship, evaluating a product before I spend time on it. I did that. I applied the same principles to a book which is another product. And while I was writing the book, my editor, Mike, I was giving him a chapter at a time to review and he was like, Man, this is going to be a good book. I cannot tell because he's helped a lot of people become bestsellers and and one day he's like, they're going to want to interview. Joe: You're like, oh, no. Tony: Yeah, he's like because you might be on TV, radio, podcasts, and I felt that Stagefright, again, coming up was like, I'm in. But I'm kind of a daredevil anyways, and I said, you know what, this is a sign. This is this is a sign I need to go take care of this fear. So just like any other normal human with a fear or something or challenge like so just like most people with a fear of public speaking or any other challenge, they basically get on Google or they get on Syria, they ask, you know, how do we overcome this? And for the results, I said, join a Toastmasters or join a Rotary Club and hire a speaking coach. I said, OK, this is something I have to do. And and obviously, it was really, really avoiding this kind of scenario. So I joined Toastmasters. It's a it's a nonprofit that teaches public speaking and leadership. And there's local clubs all over the world and is really inexpensive. I think it was like 45 dollars for our whole six months. And I said this is like a no brainer. So I'll I'll try that. And so I said, if I'm going to go, I'm going. I'm not going to be a spectator. I'm going to make myself really uncomfortable. I want to sit in the front row and I'm going to raise my hand every meeting with, like once a week and just volunteer to do something in the front of the room and just make myself uncomfortable. And because I knew that the book was about five months out and I needed to get ahead of this. Right. So Joe: Yeah. Tony: So that's what I did is so I would learn a new tactic of public speaking at a meeting. And then for the next seven days, I would do videos. I would I would go on Instagram or Facebook and just practice what I was learning on public speaking to my phone and is really uncomfortable. And I did not. All those videos exist or like in May, June of 2017. And I basically just I just did them every day. And that's how I improved. And I used to be so afraid of just doing videos, I would do them in my truck. Somebody walked by in the park in like an aisle away, I would put the camera down and act like I wasn't doing any videos because I was so weird to go through that. And I would record myself like ten takes and I would finally get one. That was the best I could do at that given moment. And I would share that one. And and that's how I did better. And I did that for over a year. And now within six months of me joining Toastmasters and doing those reps and making myself uncomfortable and doing about a speech per month, I actually started competing and representing that club and the Toastmasters competitions. And I actually won and went three rounds like Joe: Wow. Tony: I went I was like fourth place in all of Houston, you know, after doing the club level than the area level that I went to district. And it was it was crazy. So even after winning a couple of competitions, I, I finally started realizing there might actually be something to this. Like I actually might be OK at doing this. Joe: Mm hmm. Tony: So it's me winning competitions to finally realized that. And like anything else that I get into, I just go all in. And to me, public speaking was the thing I needed to go get good at. And I focused on it. I studied who I thought were the best speakers. I learned from people to hire a speaking coach. And I did reps and and I actually became the president of that Toastmasters club. And I grew it to one of the largest clubs in Houston and had about 50 active members at the time. I was president for a year or so. I got to go from being transformed to transforming hundreds of people that came in and out those doors for a period of over four years of being in that organization. And and I just I've seen so many changes that most people really underestimate the the quickness you can change. And I would say for most Toastmasters, you can come in definitely afraid. And if you participate within three to six months, you'll be a completely different person. So it happens that fast. And I've seen it too many times to to argue the results. So if you're out there and you're worried about public speaking or doing videos like this or you have a fear of that, like go join, make yourself uncomfortable, do the reps and it is a skill is not a talent. When you hear someone speaking like I do now, it's not a talent. It's not something I was born with. It wasn't even a thought in my mind to be a public speaker. But I learned the tactics and the strategies of effective communication and how to use my vocal inflections and speed and volume control presence, hands. All the things that you never even think about are part of communication. You learn when you actually get coached and you actually it's a skill. It's just like learning a new language. Joe: Yeah, and it was a real surprise to me, because I actually heard you say that you had a real fear of public speaking in it. I think it was a clubhouse room because you were giving advice to someone. And when you said that, I was like, I can't be the same person. I just, you know, I didn't understand it. And I personally think, you know, I come from the entertainment side of things. I own an entertainment booking agency here in Phoenix, probably one of the biggest ones here. So I was a performer my whole life. So it's not hard for me to necessarily do this, even though, yeah, a lot of people don't like how they look. They don't like how they're their own voice, all these things. But Tony: Yeah. Joe: I think you have a great voice. It's it's incredibly soothing the way that's what I liked about how you presented yourself in those rooms. It wasn't like I'm great and it wasn't like there's a lot of people that just sort of yell and they're like, you know, that's how they Tony: I'm Joe: Get there Tony: Super awesome, Joe: Exist. Tony: And for nine hundred ninety seven dollars, Joe: But Tony: You can get the course that will make you a millionaire Joe: That Tony: And one Joe: Is

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Empower over Power — AoA Series #8

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 26, 2021 48:22

The accumulation of power seems like a good idea at first. Then we see how deeply insecure some billionaires and leaders of countries can be. What if no amount of power could ever make you feel safe? What if it was just another thing that could be taken away from you? What if being empowered is the key to the only security that truly sets you free?"Power is control over other people and empowered means that you are not looking for control of others. You are just being you despite the consequences."The accumulation of power seems like a good idea at first. Then we see how deeply insecure some billionaires and leaders of countries can be. What if no amount of power could ever make you feel safe? What if it was just another thing that could be taken away from you? What if being empowered is the key to the only security that truly sets you free? Brett: Joe, what makes this distinction so important?Joe: The empowered overpower distinction. I think there's a deep confusion in us as a people and internally between the two and that confusion is what creates the subjugation that we feel both in the relationship to ourselves and the relationship with the outside world. To clarify that confusion, to actually see that we are always a choice and that choice is always empowered, whether we want to admit it or not is a way to set us free from that subjugation.Brett: Power is real. There are people who really do have power over us and there are situations in which we have limited control. That must be partially responsible for our situation.Joe: Yes and no. The thing is, that we're all interdependent, everything is interdependent. It's like a gigantic machine if you will or a gigantic ecosystem. Who has the power, the ants or the mountain lion or the rabbits? If any of them go, the whole system changes. The whole system is dependent on all the other parts of the system. In that way, yes, there are things that have power over us. If you're a deer, deer ticks have power over you and mountain lions have power over you, but if you're a mountain lion, deer have power over you because if the deer disappear, you're screwed, you're not eating. There's a way of looking at it that says, "Oh, wow, everything that I'm interdependent on has power over me." You can look at it that way and it's absolutely true. The other way to look at it is that, our choice is ours. We get to choose and we might not like the consequences. We don't always have control over the consequences. I think when we don't have control over the consequences, that's when the mind wants to say, "Oh, somebody has power over me." But there's nobody on this planet that isn't dependent on somebody else or something else.Take the most powerful person in the world, if people stop buying their product or if people rebel against them or if the price of oil goes to $20 a barrel and all of a sudden, their money to control their society goes away. Everybody has something like that. It's something that I think about oftentimes when I'm thinking about CEOs and my experience in working with them is that they have more bosses than anybody. They have their key employees who they need to keep happy, their customers they need to keep happy, their shareholders they need to keep happy. They have Board of Directors they need to keep happy. There are so many people who they are dependent on or they need their approval or they need them to buy into their vision in some way. There's nobody in this system that isn't dependent on other people. There's nobody in this system that isn't scared to change the system because of consequences. As one person is sitting there and saying, "Hey, if I stand up for myself, I'll lose my job." There's a CEO that says, "Hey, if I don't give my quarterly numbers, I'll lose my job. If I don't get to the quarterly numbers, I'll lose my job." There's a billionaire that's like, "Wow, if I don't keep on finding more oil, I'm going to lose my fortune." There's something everywhere, everybody's got something. In that aspect, absolutely, everybody has somebody who has power over them. I think we often think about the people who diversified, like lots of customers or lots of people as more powerful, meaning that they're not dependent on one person. They're not dependent on one customer. They feel more powerful on our system but, everybody's dependent.Brett: It sounds like what you're pointing at in terms of power, when something has power over us, it's setting the constraints of our environment. If we have power over someone else, we have the power to set the constraints for the system in some way, but that doesn't tell the whole story. There's what we do within the constraints and which constraints we buy into or don't.Joe: That's it. Inside of the constraints, you're completely empowered. The way that you show up inside the constraints, the constraints have to adjust. Meaning, if you are scared of losing your job and you say, "Forget it, I'm going to show up the way that feels right for me and if I get fired, I get fired." You will change the system. There's no way for it not to change, even if you get fired. There's no way for the system not to change. There's no way that the way you interact with the system doesn't affect it.Brett: Even the structure of a company or even the interpersonal relations in your team will change if you're not being the same cog in the ecosystem that was existing before.Joe: That's right. You see this. Working with CEOs and working with billionaires, you see this all the time, that there's a whole bunch of things that they want to affect change on that they can't. They don't know how to or that nobody knows how to or it's just beyond their control. It's not like anybody in any situation doesn't have something that they're not able to affect the change on. There're billionaires that I know that if they could control everything, they would have more billions and there're billionaires I know, that if they could control everything, everybody would have social and economic equality but they can't, just like we can't, you can't, I can't, nobody can. As long as you need to control a situation to feel empowered, then you are subjugated.Brett: That's not real empowerment.Joe: That's right.Brett: Where does this come from? Where does this yearning for power arise from if not empowerment?Joe: Fear. If we're making the distinction between power and empowered and I think that even in our language, oftentimes, when someone says, "I feel powerful," they mean empowered. As far as the semantics we're going to use, that means empowered. Then some people are like, "I feel powerful, meaning I have control over you." People who want to feel powerful control over situations just fear. They are scared. On some level, we all are scared when we are looking to find power. Now, power might come to us and just because I have power doesn't mean I'm scared, but if I'm looking for it, then I'm scared.Brett: How does achieving some sense of power actually satiate or affect that fear, or does it?Joe: It doesn't. It's like any addiction. There's a short-term high that you get and then it's over. I remember when I was in one of my poorest times in my life when I had the least amount of resources and my attitude towards money and power was changing. I was driving in my car and I was thinking, "Oh, I don't have enough." As it turned out at that time, I knew several billionaires and I went through the list and I'm like, "Oh, they're driving around right now thinking they don't have enough either." Like, "Oh my God, I'm a billionaire." My situation, their situation is no different. They can affect some change in a way that I can't, but I can affect some change in the way that they can't.Brett: I could imagine a situation where a billionaire even feels more powerless, because they realize they have all this money and they're actually not able to change the world. So they don't get to believe that money would solve that problem for them.Joe: That's right. That's the thing is, one of the best investors I ever met said that if you see somebody who thinks that money is going to solve their problems, don't invest. They're dead right. Capitalization doesn't solve problems. It makes them bigger often.Brett: You throw money at problems and you end up with bigger problems that require money to sustain.Joe: Yes, that's right. It's like this illusion, once you have the power, then you got to worry about holding on to it. Another billionaire guy told me at one point, he said, “Everybody works, Joe. Everybody works.” If you have a billion dollars, you got to work to maintain it. Everybody works.Brett: If you're going for social capital, you have the billion dollars. You still have to work to maintain social capital and connections.Joe: Yes, or you've got $54 billion and you can't affect an election. One guy with maybe a billion dollars can beat another guy with 54 billion. Both of them can be beaten with somebody with less than a million. Power isn't accumulated by more power. It makes it easier in some forms of power, but sometimes having large amounts of power actually make it harder to accumulate power.Brett: In the current election cycle, trying to get elected as a billionaire takes you down a whole bunch of notches already.Joe: Right, or being a really big shot investor with a lot of power. On some level, there's some benefits to it and on other levels, a lot of people follow you, which creates complications as far as liquidity and other things. It's the same thing with somebody who has the power of leadership in a small community. On one level, there's certain things that they can affect change around that other people can't and in another level, there are certain things they can't.There's a certain balance that is struck in any leadership position and some things can be taken away from you more readily and some things you can't affect change on. It's something that I realized when I was in Boards of Directors. Sometimes in certain Boards of Directors, I had more power being off the board than I did being on the board. Being on the board, I was part of the dynamic and I couldn't help the leadership see through the dynamic. My capacity to help people see through the dynamic was more powerful than having a vote.Brett: Everything unseen and behind the curtain kind of thing.Joe: The way that I define power is, that power is the thing that can be taken away from you. Empowerment can't be taken away from you. Power is control over other people and empowered means that you're not looking for control of others. You're just being you despite the consequences. Power is looking to find safety. It's an expression of fear. Empowered is standing in the face of that fear and being truthful to yourself.If you think about every story that we've ever heard, it's always the story of the person who goes against the consequences for their truth. This is what we long for in ourselves is that, “I'm going to be empowered in a way that I will do the right thing despite the consequences whether I'm saving somebody from a burning building or whether I'm risking my job to be authentic.” That's what empowered is.Brett: Yes, burning building was a good example because, running into a burning building to save somebody, the fire has power over you. There's nothing anybody's going to do to change that, but you are going into the burning building to do your truth, to try to save somebody regardless of the consequences. You're willing to experience and feel the consequences of coming up against something with much greater power than you.Joe: Yes, that's right. There's the material power, like money or gun or fire and then there's also just the power of influence over you or other people. What I noticed is that when people act empowered, eight times out of 10, maybe seven times out of 10, the consequence that they're scared of doesn't come to pass. Even though the moment before they take that action, they're pretty sure it's inevitable. If I'm saying I'm going to be true to my wife even though I might lose her, eight times out of 10, I'm not going to lose her. If I'm saying I'm going to be true to myself even if I might get fired, eight out of 10 times, I don't get fired.If you're actually going into a burning building, I don't know what the odds are. It is not something that I have enough experience with. I will say, the other part of that is that even when you act empowered and things don't go the way you want them to go, they end up going the way you want them to go eventually. Meaning, yes, maybe your wife leaves you but eventually, you get in a relationship that works for you. Meaning that as you act empowered, as you act in your truth, the world that can handle your truth surrounds you and that becomes your reality bubble. We're all in these echo chambers. If I believe one political thing, I'm going to be in an echo chamber of verification of that. If I believe something else, I'll be in an echo chamber that verifies that. It's how our consciousness works and if we're true to ourselves, we end up in an echo chamber that is true to ourselves.Brett: It seems there's a difference between the actual constraints that our environment places on us and then the predictive constraints that we are simulating, that we are actually acting on, which are not exactly the real constraints of the environment. If we start operating in a way that doesn't fit the constraints of our immediate environment, we may end up losing a partnership, we may end up losing a job. If we stick with operating as though the world had the constraints that we want, eventually, we will only end up fitting into a system that fits those constraints.Joe: That's right. You see this in great leadership. I would say that one of the ways that you know that you're empowered is that you're acting in a way as if your reality is already true, that your vision is already true. If you're a civil rights leader, you're acting as if you are already equal and free. You're being that example for everybody to follow and you're assuming that everybody will treat you that way. It starts bending the world into that way of treating you. If you feel like you're less than, then your civil rights movement by its nature will have more friction in it. More people will treat you as you're less than.It's the same with anything-- if you're acting as a leader of a CEO and you're like, “Of course, we're going to be successful,” and you're acting like you're successful. When you're in the negotiations, you're acting like you're successful, then the world wants to bend towards that. It doesn't mean it bends towards it all the time, but it wants to bend towards that. That's what being a visionary is and that is, if you're empowered, then that visionary nature starts becoming more and more obvious to you. It just becomes something that starts happening.Brett: That brings up an interesting subtlety, the idea of acting as though you're already successful. It seems like there could be ways of performing success that are not beneficial, but the actual belief that you are successful. How would you distinguish between those two things?Joe: The way I would distinguish between those two things is, that there's a great story. It was an admiral in the Navy who got into a POW camp in Vietnam and he was asked who made it, who didn't make it? He said, “Well, who didn't make it was easy. That was the optimist.” The interviewer is like, “What do you mean optimist?” He said, “It means that they thought they were going to get out by Christmas or by the next season or whatever it was. They didn't make it, because when that came, that timetable came and left, they became defeated and they didn't make it.” He said, “Well, who did make it?” He said, “Well, that's clear, it's the people who thought that they would get out. The people who maintained that vision of their own freedom.”Brett: In that sense, if we find ourselves performing successfulness and then, signs of failure come, then that can just completely break down and we'll actually just believe our failure and that'll be the end, whereas realizing that this business can entirely fail and I still feel empowered as the person who can be successful.Joe: Correct and will be. It might be the next business. You see this all the time when people are transforming. When they're changing, they have this massive breakthrough and then they go, “Oh!” then, they feel disempowered because of the power of the pattern and they're like, "How do I keep it? How do I keep this breakthrough?" As soon as you see that, as soon as you see somebody start wrestling with how do I keep it, you know that it's going to be in flux. You know that it's going to pendulate back and forth for a while.But when the person sees it so clearly that they're like, "Of course, this is what's happening," then it's over. Even if it comes back a little bit, it's over. The whole process is quicker. If somebody has been getting angry a ton in their world and then all of a sudden they have this breakthrough of like, "Oh my gosh, it's not that I'm angry. It's that I'm hurt." They start crying and they see this new reality. They're like, "Yes." Of course, they don't need to hold on to it. Then you know that that change is going to be smooth and quick. If they are like, "Oh my God, I see it. How do I keep it?" Then you know that they're not fully empowered.Brett: That's a belief that's fragile then and that they don't really have it.Joe: Exactly. In that belief system, they still feel like this thing has power over them, this influence. What's interesting is, of course, it has power over you, of course and it's exactly that that you need to enter into. It's exactly that helplessness that helps us become empowered. What I mean by that specifically, because that can be incredibly confusing is, that going through the feeling of helplessness is what creates, oftentimes, that sense of empowerment.Brett: Yes, that's important, because what you were just saying earlier is that the power itself or the seeking of power as a deep expression of fear and it seems like that would be the fear of feeling the helplessness, the fear of being helpless. If you just move through that helplessness, then you end up on the other side feeling empowered.Joe: That's it. You just said it better than I could.Brett: Is there anything else you want to add to the definition of empowered?Joe: Yes. Empowered really is a feeling. It's a state. It's not a life condition. Meaning, you can be a billionaire and feel empowered and you can be in poverty and feel empowered. It's not really about how many resources you have. It's about your resourcefulness. It's knowing that you have the courage to do what's true for you. The other thing about empoweredness is that you can't really love without it. If you look at all the people who we see as beacons of love, there is a deep sense of empowerment to them. If you close your eyes and you go inside and you feel what it is to be unconditionally loving and then you feel what it is to be unconditionally empowered, you'll notice that they're two sides of the same mountain and you can't get to the peak without both sides of the mountain.Brett: I'm curious about what some of the different ways are that we allow ourselves to have power taking over us. What are some of the types of power? There can be economic power, there could be emotional power. I think a lot of this could allude to the victim-savior-bully stuff that we've discussed in some of the other episodes.Joe: When we're in fear, which is often when we're seeking power over another person, we're often in a victim, savior or a bully role. That is a good sign that you're in the power over. You can have power over somebody by being a bully. That role we know really well. Our society agrees with that one. They're like, "Oh yes, that person's a bully. They want power over." But you can get power over people as a victim too. I was watching a television show about magic and for whatever reason, they had this group of moms and they were all talking about guilt. They were all laughing and smiling over how guilt was a good way to control their kids. It's like, "Right, that is how people can control through the victim." Like, I'm so fragile that you can't tell me your truth. If there is somebody in your life that you can't tell your truth to because you're scared of hurting them, then you're being somebody who's controlling through victimhood. It's the same way with a savior. You can control people by saving them. You see this in very wealthy families all the time. They maintain control over their children by making sure that their money is there to save them. Or the Al-Anon saving the alcoholic. It happens all the time. There's all sorts of ways in which we are trying to have power over people. They mostly fit in the three categories, which is victim, savior and bully.Brett: The example with the rich people with the money doing the savior thing, I think there's many ways that that could apply to philanthropy as well.Joe: Yes, absolutely.Brett: Philanthropy can be done in a way that is entirely disempowering and that it can be done in a way that is empowering and I think a lot of that would come from the mindset of the people involved on all sides of it in the system.Joe: That's right. When I did a lot of philanthropy with schools and with kids, I would stay away from working with anybody who was coming from a place of guilt, that they were doing it because they felt guilty because their philanthropy just didn't work. If they were trying to help people, I would also stay away from it. If they were working with people so that both they and the people they were there to serve were being helped, then those were effective.Brett: What's an example of how that would work? Philanthropy failing, because it came from a place of guilt.Joe: I was in Nicaragua at one point and there was a group of Canadians there that had brought a whole bunch of clothing for this village. They all felt really great about themselves. When I asked them why they did it, they were all like, "Oh, I just feel bad that we have so much and I want to spread it." There's nothing wrong with it, but it just isn't successful. I remember sitting with them and saying, "Hey, there's all these turtles here that are going extinct." All these people could be saving the turtles. What if they earned their clothing by helping the turtles? How does that change this whole system?What it does change is, it makes people have an equal exchange and so they feel empowered. If somebody's just giving them stuff without an exchange, then it's actually quite disempowering because now you have power over them because they need you to give them stuff. In the '70s in Africa, you saw where food drops would happen. Then when the people who had the walkie talkies that helped the food drops happen went away, the native people tried to build fake walkie talkies and act like the person with the walkie talkies to get the food to drop.It's like you're not teaching that person how to fish. You're giving them fish. When people act out of guilt, that's usually how it works, because they feel like they have to give. Good philanthropy is an exchange. It's not a gift. It's a recognition that you're getting as much from it as you're giving.Brett: That segues to another interesting thing from earlier in the conversation about your empowerment is something that you have to give up. You choose to give up your empowerment. Let's talk a little more about that.Joe: There's a choice that you make and every time that you feel like you've been disempowered or that someone has power over you and you can't be true to yourself, then what's actually happening is that you are choosing to avoid a potential bad consequence. That's a choice that you're making. You have to choose that for it to be the case. Mandela had everything taken from him except his life. He was crushing rocks. He was beaten. It was not pretty for him and yet he stayed empowered. He continued to make choices and knew the choices that he was making despite the consequences.Brett: How does that work in daily life? Like with a job or perhaps with a receiver of philanthropy, trying to become empowered, but finding that the moment they become empowered, they stop receiving gifts and so, it's easier not to.Joe: Yes, it's really true. It's harder to raise money for something that's deeply empowered too, it's interesting that way. But then again, the people who truly feel empowered don't need to raise as much money. They have other ways of making things happen. Yes, it's a good question. How does it happen in daily life? One of the ways that I work with my clients on this often that makes it really acute is-- and I mentioned it a bit in the beginning, but I'll use a different example. It's like a husband that's deeply unhappy in his marriage. I'll ask the question, what if you act exactly how you want to act and see if they leave you, see if the divorce occurs. That's an empowered act. It's like, "Oh, I'm not going to compromise my authenticity, my truth to keep your love. I'm not going to compromise my authenticity and my truth to keep the job. I'm not going to compromise my authenticity and my truth to avoid the conflict and that's when people feel disempowered is, when they don't make that choice. That's when people complain about somebody having power over them.Brett: Right? Like believing that we're not going to be able to find another job, if we leave this job or believing we're never going to find another partner, if things don't work out with this one and we don't conform to this structure we're in.Joe: Yes. Then that becomes pretty obvious pretty quickly when you're dealing with one-on-one relationships, but then when it comes to being in a company or being in a country or being part of a geopolitical system, it becomes a little bit harder to see, because the change that you're creating is just less palpable. It's because it's a numbers game and so it becomes harder for people to see in that way.But that's an intellectual thing. On an emotional and a gut level, you feel it right away, you know it right away when you are acting empowered in those situations, say, "Oh, I'm going to be this way," and I see it all the time. It's like if you look at the people who are breaking the social norms in a way that is liberating for them, that are the front runners or the trailblazers, if you look at those folks, they are the ones who are not buying into the consequences.Brett: It's contagious then like, if you're looking for a social change, it requires empowerment on a population level. It might feel from a disempowered place that if you're the only person who becomes empowered, you're just going to get steamrolled by the system. Yet, you look at examples like MLK and it's, one person was empowered enough to have like a halo around them, creating more empowerment.Joe: Yes and he died. Right. There was somebody who had a gun and that's real power and it affected change. He had real power and it affected change. Both of the men who shot and the man who got shot in this particular case, both affected massive change in the world. The difference between the two is one felt empowered and one felt disempowered. The change that we affect when we feel disempowered usually doesn't serve ourselves or humanity.Brett: Yes, that reminds me of the archetype of the rebel, somebody who feeling what they think is power, ends up destroying their life and others in the name of their truth. Whoever shot MLK felt like they were following their truth and you see this all the time. Let's talk about that.Joe: Yes. It's really hard to see the difference sometimes, especially when you're in the middle of it and it's subtle until you see it and when you see it, it's clear. If you are in blame for another person or shame for yourself, then you are disempowered and you are trying to accumulate power. If you are not in blame or for others or shame for yourself, then that is empowered. That's the emotional way to know where you're at.Brett: Or guilt I guess, guilt and shame can be distinguished as well a little bit.Joe: Yes, guilt and shame. We'll put them together. Those are such-- semantically, that's a very interesting thing and it's very culturally based, but yes, guilt, shame, blame, all that stuff is a good indicator that you're disempowered.Brett: Earlier we were talking about the drama triangle with the bully and the victim and the savior and how that's based in fear. Can you relate that to blame and shame?Joe: Yes, so oftentimes, that fear is based on the sense of helplessness. That sense of helplessness is because we believe the story of blame and shame in our head. When you feel like someone else's making your life X, Y and Z way, then you're in blame and there's a helplessness and there's a fear that you will lose complete control and therefore, you need to have control over. Or, there's a shame, like, “I'm inherently bad.” There's no way out of that. It's a deep feeling of helplessness and we're scared of feeling that helplessness, so we then move into the drama triangle or the fear triangle. That's how it works. It's that helplessness is the feeling of that blame and shame felt all the way through, that we don't want to feel. That's the amazing thing about feeling helplessness. Feeling helplessness doesn't make you more helpless. Feeling helpless makes you more capable. It's so counterintuitive, but if you do it, you know it, right, because so much of our decision-making process is based on trying to avoid an emotional state. The emotional state of helplessness is one of the ones underlying most of our avoidance.Brett: What are some of the indicators for each of these particular roles? If all of them are fear state being set into place with blame and shame and we need to feel helplessness to get through them, what are some of the indicators for some of these particular roles of victim, bully and savior?Joe: The reason I don't call the drama triangle very often and I'm more prone to call it the fear triangle is because, the victim, bully and savior correspond with fight, flight or freeze, which are the states of fear. Fight is pretty obviously bully. Right? It's like, when I'm scared, I fight. When I'm scared, I freeze, that's more victim. When I'm scared, I fly, that's savior and that's the harder one to understand. But what happens is, I run away from myself in my own experience and I try to fix you, so that I can feel safe. If I can make it so you don't get drunk, I'll feel safe. If I can make it, that you're happy, then I'll feel safe.I'm running away from myself going into you to try to fix my issues and so, that's why I call it the fear triangle. There's a feeling for each one of them, right? It's kind of the indicator. The indicator is, if I am feeling all alone in it, that's the bully. If I feel obligation, that's the savior and if I feel stuck, that's the victim. In actuality, we'll feel all three of these things if you really slow it down for a minute and you'll notice that you'll feel all three of these things in a moment of fear. My wife comes home, she's in a horrible mood and I feel helpless that now my mood is going to be screwed up and the house is going to be screwed up and the kids are going to be screwed like, “I can't do anything.” I might feel alone, like, "Oh, God, I can't. I'm the only one who has to fix this thing." Then I feel, "Oh my God, I got to do something for her so that she feels better and then I'm stuck with this thing." It's like all three of them can happen slowly or quickly. But there's one that usually we dominate in situations that are dominating us in situations. Most people tend towards fight, flight or freeze most of the time.Brett: Yes, I personally tend towards the savior.Joe: Yes, I have tended towards both savior and bully. Those are the two places I'll go depending on the circumstance. Yes and often in quick succession.Brett: Let's talk a little bit more about how this works in companies and in teams.Joe: It works in a number of ways. The first is, you see this happening all the time in companies and teams, that somebody is acting like the victim or some group is acting like the victim. Some are acting as the savior. There's different ways that they're trying to create control. The less empowered the team feels, the more drama and that's a great-- as soon as you walk into a team, if it's super political, it's just like everybody feels disempowered. You just know it. Where everybody feels empowered and they feel like they can affect change, there's so little politics that are going on. It's a great litmus test.Brett: Right, because politics is a control mechanism.Joe: Correct. Yes, it's that fear. Drama. That's the thing that you see in politics everywhere. I don't mean politics as in people running countries. I mean politics. It might be people running countries.Brett: People being political. Joe: Being political, right. It's a deep expression of fear and people trying to capture power. Exactly. It's because everybody feels helpless and feels like they're not actually able to affect change in a way that's meaningful.Brett: How do you affect this kind of change in a company, whether you're leading the company or you're within the company or at the bottom of some ladder?Joe: Yes. Well, this is the tricky bit, because as a leader of a company, you want your people to be empowered. You also, often out of fear, want to limit their capacity to affect change. I don't want the new mail clerk to decide what my initial public offering price is going to be. It's this constant balance of people feeling empowered. You wanting people to feel empowered and at the same time, a fear of having that power runaway or this lack of control. This is the balance and the subtle war that's happening oftentimes with leaders.You'll hear it all the time because they'll say something like, "I wish everybody would act like the owner of the company." They mean that to a point, meaning they want everyone to take responsibility like that, but they don't want everybody to have all the benefits and they don't want everybody to have all the choice that they have. There's this very interesting balance that happens. What's happening in those companies is that the empowerment and the roles have gotten confused.If everybody can feel empowered in their role and their role is defined and how decisions are made is defined, then people feeling deeply empowered is incredibly good for a company. As soon as those roles aren't defined well, as soon as people don't know what they have to do to be successful, then a whole bunch of empowered people just creates a lot of mess. Brett: It sounds like there's a bit of a paradox here, where having well-defined roles and well-defined processes is structure and that could be something that people feel has power over them. Then also what you want is them to feel empowered to push back and change that structure or work fully within the structure and also perhaps challenge it. If you don't have structure like clear goals, criteria for success, loving accountability, transparency, then what happens there? There's a powerlessness in having no structure.Joe: That's right. Yes, if there's no way to affect change or make decisions, then what you'll have is this crazy politics with people trying to get power so that they can feel safe. Yes, you want to have some sort of structure that allows itself to change and a structure that doesn't change without very specific things happening, so that people can feel safe that they know what to do, that they know what success means. This doesn't matter if it's AA or Enron. In AA, there's a very particular structure that has to happen. There's 12 steps. There's the way that the meetings get run and that structure happens. It's important or people can't feel safe in those environments. In Uber, there's very particular structures in place. There's, "I'm going to rate you five stars or not," and there's another structure of making sure that drivers don't rip other people off by tracking them on maps. Those structures are really incredibly critical or people don't feel safe. Will those structures need to change over time? Absolutely. But, you need the structure for people to feel safe and know what their roles are. Then you need to be able to make room for people to grow and change their roles. The Constitution of the United States does a pretty good job of it, too.Brett: Yes, sets a structure. Joe: Yes. That's the balance that you're constantly looking for is, “How I create the amount of structure that makes people feel safe but also gives them autonomy and gives them the capacity to feel as empowered as possible.” Brett: Includes mechanisms for that structure itself to be updated to match reality.Joe: Absolutely. Right, that's it. That's how looking at company-- and what you see typically is, the more transparency and the less structure that creates safety, the more elegant the structure is that creates safety, then the more successful the company. Taxi cabs becoming Uber is an example of this, less structure, less infrastructure, but it creates actually more safety. It's the same thing that happened with GM and Toyota. Toyota became more decentralized than GM, which was at the time, the most centralized company. That decentralization, but still maintaining the structure, is what usually gives those companies a competitive advantage. The reason is, because it creates more empowerment with the employees.Brett: It seems like this would also promote scalability for a company, because if you have 100 empowered decision-makers instead of three, then more decisions can be made and more information can be processed.Joe: That's exactly right. Yes. You saw that there was a-- I can't remember, it was one of the Malcolm Gladwell books talked about, how in this war game that the Pentagon does, this small band of people beat the US Army, because their decision-making was happening at the bottom. There was some set of principles, some set of structure that they could all operate within. That's basically how you do it. It was in David and Goliath, was I think his book. You see that all the time and you see it in business books as well, like Reinventing Organizations, where the same principle is there. Brett: Yes, another war game example, just war example, would be when Rommel first encountered US troops in Northern Africa. He was like, "Oh, these guys are totally green and completely disorganized. It'll be a cinch." Then, not long after, he was writing letters back to Germany like, "Wait, don't underestimate these people. You can cut off an entire unit from their command and somehow, they'll still figure out how to fight."Joe: But this isn't just an external thing. This is an internal thing as well. When you become more empowered, you start operating on a set of principles and that set of principles, you're going to operate on whether it's comfortable or not. If I have a principle that basically says, "I am not going to work with assholes," and somebody says, "Here's a billion dollars to work with an asshole," I'm going to say, "No." It's a set of principles. I'm not going to operate any differently than that. If I have a set of principles and it's like, I'm going to be transparent with people and tell them my truth despite the consequences, that's my set of principles. I'm going to do it no matter what. That's when all the drama in me starts disappearing. That's when I feel empowered is, I've given myself a structure that it doesn't change very readily. It takes some time to change that set of principles, but I'm going to operate in that way no matter what. That helps me feel deeply empowered, which is strange. It's like a set of criteria that I live by that actually makes me feel empowered.Brett: Yes, as though this entire process of inquiry into values is to create a more and more consolidated, elegant structure by which we live our lives, so that we don't have to think about the complicated consequences and how the consequences are going to play out of, “What if I say this to my boss? Or speak my truth here or leave this job?” It's just, this is simply how I want to live and I'll accept the consequences if that's what it takes.Joe: That's exactly right. Yes, that set of principles is what frees us. If you look around at the people who you just saw like, “Holy crap, they didn't have resources, but they were empowered and they changed the world.” That's something else they all have in common. They were living by a set of principles internally and externally. Not perfectly, obviously. We're humans. We are not made perfect, but it's generally how one lives their life. When you see somebody who's living by a set of principles, you'll also notice that they never are blaming other folks. They're never worried about somebody's power over them. They're addressing it. Brett: That also will affect your opportunities as well. When I'm hiring, I'm much more interested in the resourcefulness and the ownership, the self-ownership of the person rather than the skills listed on their resume. People really detect that in any counterpart that they might work with.Joe: That's right, I'd rather pick the right mentality than the right skillset, for sure. I obviously like to pick both when I can, but yes, that's right. This is what happens internally, like I said, as well as externally, the drama internally goes away when we feel empowered internally, when we don't feel that we will make the choice even if it's uncomfortable. Even if I have to feel helpless, I'm going to make that choice. Even if I have to-- I'm not going to have power over somebody else or try to have power over myself. I will rather feel the discomfort of the fear and the helplessness. I'll rather enter into the shame. I would rather allow my own destruction as far as the destruction of my identity, my identity as one who's put upon or my identity as one who's valuable. I'd rather allow that to be destroyed, rather than move into fear and act from fear and try to have control over somebody. It's an internal and an external thing. When you figure it out internally, you have no choice but to act externally. If you feel like you are subjugated by something externally, then you also feel like you're subjugated by something internally.Brett: That sounds like a great point to wrap this up on. Thank you very much, Joe.Joe: Yes. Pleasure, Brett. Thank you very much.Thanks for listening to The Art of Accomplishment podcast. If you enjoyed what you heard today, please subscribe. We would love your feedback, so feel free to send us questions and comments. To reach us, join our newsletter, learn more about VIEW, or to take a course, visit: artofaccomplishment.comResources:Frederic Laloux, Reinventing Organizations, https://www.reinventingorganizations.com/Malcolm Gladwell, David and Goliath: Underdogs, Misfits and the Art of Battling Giants

Authenticity over Improvement — AoA Series #7

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 19, 2021 50:14

When we consider how we want life to be in the future we often create a list of things that we have to improve about ourselves. Yet we rarely consider that we could succeed in “improving” every aspect of our lives, and by doing so, completely lose touch with who we are and what we want. What if learning who we are creates a future far better than what we think we want? What if it creates a future better than we could imagine?"I will watch people and if they are just following their intuition, they will just pick the next thing. This is what we do, when we are just following our nature. My nature, my authenticity improved me in ways I didn't even know were happening."When we consider how we want life to be in the future, we often create a list of things that we have to improve about ourselves. Yet, we rarely consider that we can succeed in improving every aspect of our lives and by doing so, completely lose touch with who we are and what we want. What if learning who we are creates a future far better than what we think we want? What if it creates a future better than what we could imagine? Today's episode is about valuing authenticity over improvement. Brett: Joe, let's talk about authenticity. What is authenticity?Joe: Authenticity is an endless spiral in one way and the fact that it's evolutionary by nature. We think that there is an authentic self and it is the solid thing, but it's not. It's as we discover ourselves, there's always more to discover. As we discover ourselves, we transform. Authenticity is really a path more than a destination. The way that you can identify when you're on that path of authenticity is, it's always about the process. It's never about the reward. It's never like a means to an end. It's like a river. It's very much like a river in the fact that there's a way that a river wants to run and that's the natural flow of the river.Next year, you'll come back and that river will run a different way. Authenticity is constantly changing, but there's just this natural flow to it. In Daoism, they call it the way. It's a very natural course. They call it self-discovery. They don't call it self-building. We're not building ourselves, we're discovering ourselves. That's why ultimately the path of authenticity is a path of self-realization. It is finding out the truth of who you are. Somehow, for some reason, the more we discover who we are, the more that we evolve, the more that we change, the more that we show up in a way that is far more gentle, or loving, competent, capable and strong.Brett: Can you talk a little bit more about self-realization?Joe: Yes, self-realization. There's a story of, I think it's in the Upanishads. I can't remember which tradition. So many times traditions have really similar parables. There's another parable very much like this about a tiger, but this one's about a musk deer. This musk deer is moving along one day. There's a smell and it's like, "What is that smell?" It just feels like a memory. It feels like a calling. It's like something gets opened up in this musk deer. His impulse is like, "I need to follow this thing. I need to follow it."It goes searching for the place where the scent emerges. It wants to find the origin of that scent. It looks and looks and looks and looks and it's almost upon its death, still looking for the scent and falls off of a cliff and punctures its stomach. It realizes, at that moment of death that, "Oh, the thing that I've been searching for comes from me. That scent emanates from me." That is the movement of self-realization. The thing that we're looking for in all the self-improvement, what we're actually looking for, is ourselves.Brett: How can you relate the story of the deer following its own scent to our path of self-realization? Joe: The search of the deer looking for the scent is the self-improvement. It's like, "Once I eat the right diet, then I'll be good enough, or I'll be awake, or then I'll be loved. Once I look pretty, then I'll be good enough and then I'll be loved. Once I lose enough weight, once I meditate enough, once I have no more negative thoughts, once I stop thinking," whatever it is that you think you have to do, become rich enough. Then you'll have it and you'll find the scent that you're looking for. The scent you're actually looking for is you, it is to understand yourself.It's the only thing that really solves the issue. It's why you see so many executives and I've worked with so many executives who are at the top of their game. They've made a successful billion-dollar company and they're miserable. They did everything that they thought they needed to do to improve themselves, so that they will be loved or that they would accept themselves and nothing's really changed. As soon as they start on that path of self-realization, as soon as they are looking for their own authenticity and they no longer are willing to sell that authenticity or bargain that authenticity for a result, when it stops becoming a means to an end-- it just is like, "This is my authentic expression." Then their life starts unfolding in happiness and joy.Brett: Let's talk a little bit more about that scent trail then. How would you define improvement?Joe: Yes. Improvement is basically, “If this, then this”, in terms of the self. It's like, "If I get sexy enough, then I will have the lover that I want. If I lose enough weight, then people will like me. If I have enough money, then I'll feel secure." Improvement is thinking that you're going to get a result from it. Authenticity is the opposite. It's, "This is what I'm going to do despite the consequences, because it's my authentic truth." That's basically what improvement comes. It comes from the idea of ways that we don't want to be who we are. The other way to look at all the ways we think we need to improve is all the ways that we don't love ourselves just as we are.Any point where you can't unconditionally love yourself, whether that is because you yell, because you don't work hard enough, because you're lazy, because you're a pessimist, whatever it is that you are telling yourself that you have to change, they're just ways that you're not loving yourself. They don't typically change. We just keep on telling ourselves that we don't love that about ourselves and we keep on telling ourselves that we have to improve it. When we actually accept our authenticity, those things just naturally move. They just shift.Brett: Reminds me of a quote that I've heard before, where somebody is speaking to somebody as though they were a child. They ask the question, “What do you want to be when you grow up?” Instead of thinking to ask, "How do you want to be when you grow up?"Joe: I have never heard that. That's beautiful. How do you want to be when you grow up? The other way to think about self-realization I think it's a Pema Chödrön quote. It's basically to constantly offer yourself up to annihilation, so you can find out what's the part of you that can't be annihilated.Brett: What are we annihilating, these built up ideas of who we are?Joe: That's exactly it. The things that we think we are that we have to defend, you can tell them because you're defending them. It's like when someone's like, "You didn't do that very well," and you go, "er." Then you are defining yourself as somebody who's competent. You're not able to love the incompetent part of yourself. Authenticity is, "This is how I'm competent. This is how I'm incompetent." Being able to own that. Then in the owning of the lack of competence becomes more competence. It's this thing where, oftentimes, with executives, helplessness is this big thing where they feel it. Authentically, they feel helpless, but to allow themselves to feel helpless is incredibly difficult because the fear is, "If I allow myself to feel helpless, then I will become more helpless." But if they authentically own their helplessness, then they become less helpless. Brett: I think there's also a fear of being seen.Joe: Yes. That's right.Brett: Fearing that there will be consequences to that.Joe: Yes. That's how you know that part of yourself that needs, wants, to be destroyed. It's the part of yourself that doesn't want to be seen in that way, whatever that way is. "I don't want to be seen as blank, a hypocrite. I don't want to be seen as helpless. I don't want to be seen as greedy." Whatever it is that you don't want to be seen. "I don't want to be seen as weak." Brett: How would you separate improvement from growth? Even in this process of finding your authenticity, you can get better at it. What is that if not improvement? Don't we need some form of improvement, whether we're tracking our growth in some way to see where the trajectory is going?Joe: The question is, what would make you need it? What will happen if you don't have it? I think that's where the key is. Does growth happen? Absolutely. I always use this metaphor of an oak tree because when I look out my window, there is an oak tree. The oak tree grows. The growth happens. Does it need to? No. Is it looking to improve itself? No. It's nature. Another way to think of our authenticity is our nature. Our nature is to grow, our nature is to improve, our nature is to learn. If you take a little kid when they're babies, they can't even walk. One of the things that they smile most at is when a face comes at them sideways, not when a face comes at them straight up and down. Straight up and down face is the face that they see right before they feed. That doesn't make them smile as much as a sideways face, which means, "Oh, we're here to play." Play for a kid is learning and we have this natural desire to learn. It is authentic in us. We have a natural desire to grow. It's authentic in us. This just all happens very, very naturally, but it's when you think you have to improve to be good enough or when it's not just the nature of your life. You look at a six-year old kid, they're constantly wanting to learn and grow and it doesn't stop. It doesn't stop unless someone has kicked the love of learning out of us, it just keeps going. I don't think we have a need to do it. I think the thing is, that improvement is just happening naturally and that's authenticity. But if you are looking to improve yourself, then you are putting the brakes on the process and you're often going in the opposite direction of the river.Brett: How do we address that fear of becoming stagnant if we don't improve or just to be measuring? Measuring where we're at and then measuring that according to some scale of value that we've created.Joe: That's a great question. First of all, question your scale. That's the ultimate thing. It's easy to play a game when you have a measurement. It's hard to play a game when you don't. If your measurement for life is how much money I have in the bank, then you can play. If the measurement is how kind I am to people, then you can play. Then you have something to measure to. If you start really questioning those measurements, what do you mean by kind? Do you mean having the most positive impact? How do you measure positive impact? What's the difference between kind and nice? What if I was deeply truthful, but I wasn't kind? Why is kind more important than truth? These questions, as soon as you start really looking at the end, if you really deeply look at the end, then it gets really scary. That's when the stagnation fear really shows up and you're like, "Oh, all the progress that I thought I was making might not have been to the right end. Maybe there's no end." This fear sets in and it's almost like this fear, like it's going to be nihilistic or something like that. Even the idea that it's nihilistic is just another way of trying to create meaning out of a situation, but the nature of life doesn't really require meaning. There's no other part of life that requires meaning except for humans. Life wants to evolve, it wants to grow, it wants to improve. It seems, as it turns out, most humans, when they understand themselves more and more, there's a deeper and deeper compassion that shows up. There is a deeper, deeper amount of empowerment that shows up. What you find is, the things that you think are opposite, such as love and being empowered, they turn out to be the same thing. That the pinnacle of loving is empowerment, that the pinnacle of empowerment is loving. You can feel this. If you just stop for a second and close your eyes and you feel what it would be like to unconditionally love the world. You just let that settle in your body for a moment. Your love is so big and so great that it expands everywhere. It's not weak love, it's not love like I'm going to let people abuse me. It is the kind of love that a mother has, that's a great mother. They have boundaries. Then you let that go for a second and then feel what it's like to be completely empowered. Feel what it would be like to not have to worry at all about the future, to not have to prepare, to not have to plan, to just know that you are capable of handling any situation, to be like Superman on a mountaintop with no Kryptonite in the world, or Superwoman on the mountaintop with no Kryptonite in the world. Nothing can touch you. That feeling of empowerment. Then just feel the two next to each other. How are they different, if at all, this full empowerment, this full love? That's how it moves. The fear of stagnation, the fear of, "Oh, there's no meaning. There's no place to go and therefore I'll stop moving," it hits the human psyche for sure. It's definitely a part of this human psyche, at least in the modern world, but life doesn't require any of that stuff. Life can't stop moving. Try to not improve for a week. Take two weeks and do your best to not improve. Don't learn anything, don't grow, don't have any realizations, don't have any recognitions. Try that for two weeks. [laughs] I told someone to do that once and they were like, "Oh my God, so many recognitions, so much realization," because they stopped trying. We feel this all the time when we're on holiday. You have two weeks off and then you come back and you perform better. It's smoother. The whole thing works better. You make better calls because you weren't actively trying to improve for two weeks. It's just the nature of life. We, by our nature, learn and want to grow.Brett: Something that came up for me in the exercise that we just did, was that both in the unconditional loving the world state and the feeling fully-empowered state, there wasn't any fear. But the concern of stagnating is just fear. The fear of stagnating is the thing that I know for me, in my life, I have spent a lot of time in the fear of stagnation. That has constricted me in those times and led to-Joe: Stagnation. Brett: -stagnation.Joe: Exactly. That's how it works. We invite the things that we're scared of, that's our nature. Our nature is to invite. If we have a fear of something, we're inviting it in, because we want to. We want to learn and grow from that experience, we want to face that fear. The fear of stagnation invites stagnation, the fear of loss invites loss, the fear of abandonment invites abandonment.Brett: Let's try to bring this back into more concrete examples to make this real.Joe: Yes. I'll do a couple of them. One way to look at it, is kids and their learning. Kids, we were just talking about, their nature is to learn, they're curious, that's what they're genetically programmed to do. All humans are. Somehow or another, we can put them into a school system, tell them that they have to improve and get A's and then they stop wanting to learn. It actually happens to something like 47% of highly intelligent kids fail high school.Brett: Yes, I did really great in school up until I got an IQ test that told me I was smart and then I got my first B+. This was like fourth grade. Then it was just like, "Screw it."Joe: Yes, you stopped trying.Brett: To hell with this whole thing.Joe: There's a great psychological test on this, that basically if you tell a kid they're smart and then they try and they don't succeed, they'll stop trying because then they will prove that they're not smart. They'll just stop trying, so they can maintain the identity of smart. It's some fascinating work. That's an example of it. Now if you take kids who've been unschooled, I think it's called non-schooling or unschooling or something like that, where kids have been somewhat traumatized in their school situation, so their parents pull them out. They say, "You can't watch television. You can't do things that are destructive, but you can not do any work until you're ready."They often times don't do any work for three months or six months. Then all of a sudden, they're like, "I want to work." Those kids, when they want to learn math, they can learn basically fractions to calculus in something insane, like three months or five months or something like that. You can read the studies on it, because they want to learn, because it is their desire to learn in that direction and they want to do it and they will do it. It's like one is moving with the authenticity of the situation and one is telling the kids that they have to improve to be good enough. It's like a punishment and reward situation, so that's one aspect.Another way is a personal story from my life. I was in high school and I started smoking cigarettes. I was socially awkward at the time. I had issues. My upbringing had some turmoil in it. I was constantly telling myself I should improve by not smoking. I was constantly telling something that I needed to improve in. Then just by nature, I got drawn into hacky sacking. I just started to hacky sack all the time and I just really enjoyed hacky sacking. It just became this thing. Then about 10 years ago, I was with one of my daughters. My daughter's having some problems in school and this occupational therapist came to us. Then said like, "Your daughter has something called sensory processing disorder." It just basically means that the neurology isn't really melding the way it would with other kids and it makes you very sensitive to stimulus through your senses. I said, "How do we solve this thing?" She was like, "The way you solve it is through doing exercises across the midline that require coordination," et cetera, et cetera. Hacky sacking would have been a perfect example of that. If you look at me, before hacky sacking and after hacky sacking, I became socially more fluid. I became less sensitive.When you have sensory processing, it's a bit of like a nerd's disease, more likely to wear glasses, you're awkward and clumsy, you don't do as well socially, that kind of stuff. All that changed with me hacky sacking. My nature knew what I needed, knew what was needed next and did it without anybody telling me to, without anything happening. I watched this happen all the time with clients. I watched clients all the time. I know basically the dance steps of transformation. Everybody does them a little bit differently.Sometimes chapter three comes before chapter one or whatever, but I will watch people. If they're just following their intuition, man, they will just pick the next thing and I would be like, "Oh my God, they picked it perfectly again." This is what we do when we're just following our nature. Then smoking, for me, on the other hand lasted until I was in my 30's, as a perpetual habit into my 30's and that was all the ways I was supposed to improve. My nature, my authenticity improved me in ways that I didn't even know were happening.Brett: That's fascinating. I can think of a lot of experiences in my life that are a lot like that. One of them being joining a 18-month course where I felt like an intuition. It felt like a lot of money at the time. In retrospect, it was very little. It was just like, "Man, this seems like my kind of thing." I don't even know what it is and I didn't. When I got there, I was like, "Wait, this isn't really all that."Joe: Yet, it transformed your business too, which is the insane part. That's the other thing.Brett: Yes, but more than that in my life.Joe: Exactly. That's the insane part. That's a great example of it as well. It's when people come, because they often come to me, because they want to transform their business and we transform their life by them taking their natural steps and their business naturally transforms. If they would have just focused on their improvement, their business may or may not have transformed. In this way, the reason I use this methodology of working on personal stuff is because that always transforms the business. It has a hundred percent success rate as the person transforms their attitude towards, their business will transform and so will their business. Brett: Let's relate all this back into the concept you were talking earlier about self-realization and self-discovery.Joe: That's good. If you look back to my journey, let's hear it from my journey for a second. For the early part, I got really deeply into awakening, enlightenment in the non-dual sense of the word, not like woke culture. I'm talking about like the Christ consciousness or enlightenment, whatever religious tradition you have, has a word for it. At the beginning of that journey, I thought it was improvement that would get me there. Once I ate the right diet, or once I did the right exercises, or meditated hard enough or blah, blah, I would become enlightened. That was the improvement side of things. It's a slow, arduous, painful process. It luckily moved enough for me to realize that it wasn't about improvement. It was just about the recognition of who I am. When that happened, this question appeared to me, it was, "What am I?" I asked that question for 10 years, maybe 10 times a day, I would ask that question. That is really what transformed everything for me. Just being in that question for that long with that level of wonder transformed everything. It was funny. I was seeing a guy at the time. I was reading every non-dual teacher I could find. The only guy that I had met personally, who I thought, "Wow, this is a person I would want to learn from," was a guy named Adia Shantay. I got up and asked him a question once in front of this big auditorium of people. I said, I keep on asking this question, "What am I?" All I get is silence. Some dude in the back just started laughing and I was like, "That's not funny?" Adia smiled and I can't remember what else happened. I remember about three years later, I was at a meditation retreat when that question, what am I, faded away. The question never gets answered. It just expires and then it expires like a firecracker, but it expires. I was in the back and somebody got up in the front and asked the question, "What am I and nothing." I just started laughing hysterically, as if that nothing wasn't the answer and that's what it turns into. That recognition of self is something that just unfolds into nothingness. That nothingness is incredibly free and incredibly potent and capable.Brett: So, who are you now?Joe: [laughs] Yes, that question has expired. There's an exercise on this, just to go back and forth and ask somebody, "What are you?" Over and over again, "What are you? What are you? What are you?" See what happens as all your answers expire. But if I had to put, what am I, in words right now, which is an exciting thought process, I would say, "What am I? I am infinitely you. I am everything and nothing in the silent vastness that everything arises in and so are you."Brett: Then what happens once that question expires? It sounds like there could be a trap here in thinking that, "This question of who I am has expired. Now I don't have to prove myself and there's just nothing to do." What am I going to do to just stay in that cave and meditate until-- ?Joe: Yes, there's a thought that says that that might be the case. In fact, some people go through that for a while. I think it's because they're like those kids, who needed to be unschooled for a while, when they have that recognition of their essential self in that way, that there is this need to just sit there for a while and do nothing. It becomes a bit dissociative. Eventually, it's no longer satisfying. We just become more and more human. We like to play. We like to learn. We like to grow. It's our nature. It's our authenticity. Once we have been let out of school, we realize there's nothing that we have to do to improve ourselves, because our essence is unbelievably beautiful, miraculous, a dream that we never thought even possible coming true, that we couldn't even have thought of coming true. There's this natural desire to rest for a while, potentially. But eventually, you want to move, you want to dance, you want to play, you want to be alive. Then the journey turns into, "How do I be alive? How does my authenticity really want to be alive? How fully can I embrace this life?" There's a book called The Unbearable Lightness of Being, which I don't even know what it's about, but the title is amazing. That's what it is. Life becomes, "How do I allow myself to be more and more vulnerable to the unbearable lightness of being?"Brett: I love that. Both of us are the kind of person who would recommend a book or reference a book that we haven't read just because of its title.Joe: [chuckles] The title. I highly recommend that title. Brett: [chuckles] The title.It seems like there could be another trap here where we have somewhere where we want to go and we're like, "Maybe improving myself along the particular metrics that I have in mind right now, maybe that's not the best way to get there, because authenticity is the best way to get there. If I just get more authentic, then I'll become this thing that I want to be and get to where I want to go."Joe: Yes, that's right. That is a real trap. It's like, you'll see this happen oftentime in tools. You get this tool that you start working with and in the realm of self discovery and you get this tool, it works really well for a while and then it stops working. Some of the times, it stops working, because you're using the tool to change yourself instead of loving yourself, so it stops working. Some of the time, that tool stops working, because you've co-opted it into improvement, instead of recognition. It's really the same thing, to improve yourself isn't to love yourself as you are. To find the authentic expression of you, is to love yourself as you are and to know that that authentic expression will naturally change you, just like the natural flow of a river changes the river.Brett: That could mean your goals will shift.Joe: Will shift. Yes. I've seen a lot of things not change as people go through this journey and I've seen a lot of things change, but I've never seen the goals of a person not change through the journey. That always changes. What's often interesting is, the goals that they used to have, just get met naturally without any effort or thought process, because they become just a step in what's necessary for them to evolve into their authenticity. I had a goal for years of having enough money to blah, blah blah. Somewhere along the line, I just didn't care at all about money. Then money just started rushing in. That's a really typical story. Not always, but it's a very, very typical story.Brett: We've talked about how wanting something is good. We just had a whole episode on what you want, how wanting itself is critical. Then we're just talking now about how wanting something from ourselves or wanting something in our future can lead towards this constant improvement process and away from our authenticity. What do you have to say about that?Joe: Wanting is critical, what you want is really inconsequential. What you want is directionally correct, but it is not the end all be all of anything. That wanting is what pulls you. That wanting is the natural pull of evolution, of authenticity. That's what it is. What you want is a strategy to get there. There's 10 or 20 strategies. What you want is inconsequential and there's no reason to attach to it. It is to follow your wanting and then to watch how you're wanting changes and watch how what you want changes. Brett: What happens if you're going through this process and the things that you want just change so rapidly that your life starts to feel disconnected or disorienting?Joe: You're very fortunate. You might feel disturbed depending on your personality type. Some folks will find that to be a beautiful free ride and some people will feel like-- there's that quote, that sometimes falling feels like flying for a little while. People will be like, "I'm flying, which means I must be falling." In actuality, as they say, the bad news is you're falling, the good news is there's no bottom. That is part of it. Rumi called it, a Sufi poet, he calls it a holy confusion, that not knowing. It's called the mystery for a reason.It's absolutely what happens and the goals shift and then the goals disappear. Then there's like no goals for a while. Then after there's no goals for a while, there's very specific goals and then there's just this movement that's like-- how did I describe it? The goal is to live principled, because you know, that living principled will make you happier than any goal that you could ever achieve. Brett: That's something that's entirely within your power too?Joe: Yes, it becomes choice-less at a point, it becomes outside of your power. At some point it's like, "I just can't not live with principled, because it's too damn painful."Brett: Give us another concrete example of how that works, when what you want is inconsequential, but the wanting itself isn't. Joe: I can give you a funny one. I'm sitting with my godson and his father and he has been a friend since high school. This story is going to be one of those stories that lets you know, maybe you don't want to have me as a friend. We're sitting there and we're having lunch together at this restaurant and my friend tells me about how his son stole $50 from him, bought a vape pen and was vaping in the classroom. I'm just listening. Son is in those teenage years. All of a sudden, five minutes later he's like, “The problem with my son is that he just doesn't have ambition. He just doesn't want to do anything.” I was like, “What? Of course he wants to do something. Do you know how hard it is to do what he did? Stealing $50, he planned that stuff out. That's ambition. Then he went and did it. Then with the knowledge that he could have gotten caught, which is totally ambition and then he figured out a way to go buy the vape pen. Then he had so much ambition to do it that he did it in a classroom and got caught. That is some CEO level ambition. What are you talking about?” [laughs]At this point my friend is just looking at me like, "Shut up, Joe, shut up." His son is looking at me like a smile, "Oh, wow, I didn't know. I should have visited my godfather more often." I was just saying, “There's clearly ambition, it's just that you want him to be ambitious in one way, but he's ambitious in another. Let's look at how he's ambitious.” I started talking to him. "What is it that you want to do?" He wants to play this particular sport that requires some money and you got to get these guns or whatever. It's like a laser tag type thing, the next version of a laser tag. He's telling me about it and I'm getting into it with him.Then I'm like, “How are you going to afford this?” He's like, “Maybe I have to get a job.” “What kind of job do you want to get? This kind? You don't make a lot of money.” Then, “How are you going to get there?” We just went through this whole thing and he was clearly eager to do all this stuff, so that he could do the thing that he wanted to do. I was like, “How can your dad help?” He is telling his father what his father can do, to help him be ambitious and get things done. That's the difference between, “You should improve”, to “What is the authentic expression?”The thing is, that we do that internally as well as externally, meaning we're usually like the father in that story, rather than the godfather in that story to ourselves. We're telling ourselves what we have to improve, what we need to do, blah, blah, blah, blah, instead of just paying attention to what the natural thing is. If we follow that thread far enough down, it has far better results and moves much quicker.Brett: It's fascinating. By that measure, I was extremely ambitious and barely passing any of my high school.Joe: Exactly. It's because it couldn't hook on to your authentic-- most schooling doesn't hook on to a child's authentic desire to learn.Brett: In my case, that presented a lot of different tracks and opportunities all of which just didn't quite hook.Joe: It's really hard to hook, when you're grading people and say you need to improve. That's not hook-worthy.Brett: It's like a culture of constant improvement.Joe: We don't listen to songs that tell us that we need to improve. "Wow, a triple platinum song by Jay-Z called, “Boy, You Better Workout More." It just doesn't happen.Brett: Let's talk a little bit more about how this works in companies and in a more general sense, in cultures of self-improvement or just not even self improvement, just cultures of everybody needs to improve to get better.Joe: The constant improvement culture. It's not assuming that people want to improve by nature is what happens here. A great example of this is in that book, Reinventing Organizations, there's a nursing company in there called Herzog. Basically what happened, it was in Holland, what happened is, there's these community nurses and they got privatized. It just became all about efficiency. It all became: improve, improve, improve, improve and it was like, "This is how long it should take you to get there, this is how long it should take you to administer the shot. This is how long it should take you to get back. That's how much time you have. That's how much payment you're going to get."Everybody was going for the improved nursing efficiency. This company came along and it did a lot of really cool things. One of the things it did is it said, "You know what, our job isn't to be as quick as possible. Our job is not to improve our process in that way. It's to make it, so that we help people become self-reliant." Through figuring out how to get to that home and make the person self-reliant, instead of administering the shot, they became 60% more efficient than their competition or something like that. Maybe it's 40%. I don't remember the numbers exactly, but it was a tremendous amount more efficient.One had that natural hook, because we naturally want to help people. That is part of our nature. All mammals, that are community-based mammals, have altruism as part of us. They hooked on to that natural thing and then that led to natural improvement, but they weren't trying to improve in some unnatural way. The interesting thing is, as soon as I say, it's our nature to be altruistic, somebody will say something like, "It's our nature to be self-interested." I say, "I agree, it is." It's our nature to be altruistic and it's our nature to be self-interested and it's our nature to want to be rewarded and it's our nature to want our team to win and it's in our nature for us to win. Companies that are really becoming the most efficient companies, are hooking on to all of that. If you think about that nursing company, their team won and they had individual reward for the performance. As it turned out, people got to decide their own reward. Also, they got to help. They're hooking onto all of these natural things in us.If you look at the great products of our day and the great nonprofits of our day, they hook into a natural, authentic desire in people. Sometimes it's drug-like, like Facebook or coffee and sometimes it is not drug-like. Sometimes it is just our nature to want to communicate. That's what it means. Not only does your product-- but your culture needs to--if you want to be highly efficient, it needs to hook into that nature of people, our authenticity.Brett: Another one of our ESF group was recently telling me about a company that they're applying for. It's a debt collections agency that operates on transparency. Instead of trying to be as efficient as they can, milking the most money from people as possible and buying the debt for the cheapest possible whatever, they're optimizing for really being in connection with people. They purchase debt and then they're transparent. They're like, "Hey, we bought your debt for this much. We have this much of it. We expect to get a certain percentage of it paid back from various places. What can we do to get this paid off?" With that transparency and working closer to their customers, their debtors, they actually get across this sense of actually caring. They're able to come up with much more creative solutions which actually results in-- this is a new company, but it seems like it's resulting in getting much better results for them. Also they're getting just swathes of testimonials from customers that are like, "Wow, I wish all of my debt had been bought by this company. This is amazing. They're actually people and they talk to me like a human."Joe: You can see this in sales processes are more effective, when there's a real relationship, real connection going on and that authenticity is there. People think they have to compartmentalize themselves to do business and that compartmentalization, that inauthenticity, it absolutely makes you less efficient. It might make things easier to do in the short-term, but absolutely harder to do in the long-term. It makes you less efficient, because you're basically asking anybody you interact with to compartmentalize themselves that same way. A debt collector compartmentalizes their heart and they go in hard. Then their customer compartmentalizes their heart and they respond hard, or they respond like a victim or whatever it is, but they're going to match that more on average.Brett: If we focus on finding the authentic movement, then--Joe: How do I collect debt in a way that feels good in my system? How do I nurse in a way that feels good in my system? How do I produce a social media app that feels good in my system? All of those will be a more efficient product.Brett: Then with that continual asking, "What am I?" Like, "What am I? Am I an efficient debt collector or am I a human?"Joe: That's right. "If I am them and they are me, then how do I want to behave here? If I feel my natural authenticity and my desire to learn and my desire to be of service to people, how do I collect debt in a way that's of service to people?" It feels horrible to not pay your debt. To help people feel that they are standing on their own two feet and have achieved paying off debt, that can be a real deep service for humans.Brett: I wonder how many other industries can be rethought that way.Joe: Every one of them. It's endless. It's just like there's always more money to be made. There's always a way to become more authentic and each one is an efficiency.Brett: It sounds like there's a lot of faith in this process because with each layer of authenticity you find, you really have to let go of what you valued or what you thought was important, entirely to find what's beneath it.Joe: Yes, that's true. It feels like faith, until you get used to reading the river in some way. It's the same faith that maybe a basketball player would have that's going into a game. It's like you can't plan out the whole game. You can't plan out everything. You're basically choosing, “I am going to plan out my entire basketball game”, or “I'm going to learn how to read a river” and “Learn how to read the field, learn how to read my opponents and so that I am competent in every situation where I'm in that basketball game.” Then you start having faith in your capacity to handle situations.You become excited, but you can't handle them, because it means you're getting to learn something and it makes you more capable next time. It's the same thing. It's like if you've learned to read a river to go down that river and get to the mouth of the river, it's not an act of faith anymore. It's just what you do. You're watching other people build canals and that makes them feel secure. Like, "I will just take a canal the whole way, but I have to build the whole canal." It's a lot more effort. It's very much like that. Once you start realizing, that your authenticity naturally brings you to the next level over and over again and that improving yourself is like building a canal. It's like this idea of safety, that it takes a tremendous amount of effort and is really not that safe, because lots of people die building canals. That's how it works. It feels constantly, like you're taking faith, that you're taking the risk. Then at some point, you're like, "Oh, no. It's more risky to do the other thing. It's more risky to be 60 years old and all my dreams have come true and I'm miserable," which is where that typically leads.Brett: I think we often over-index on the cost, the perceived cost of stopping doing things the way that we're doing them, but forget about the opportunity cost of continuing to do the same thing.Joe: What's interesting is, that's also part of our nature. It's also part of our nature to stay with something that feels safe.Brett: Predictable is safe.Joe: Yes, that's right. That's exactly right. Luckily, as authenticity matures us, as we evolve being authentic, we become more and more sensitive. That stuff becomes more and more painful, where we're naturally kicked out of those cycles because we just can't handle them anymore, because they're just too painful.Thanks for listening to The Art of Accomplishment podcast. If you enjoyed what you heard today, please subscribe. We would love your feedback, so feel free to send us questions and comments. To reach us, join our newsletter, learn more about VIEW, or to take a course, visit: artofaccomplishment.comResources:Frederic Laloux, Reinventing Organizations, https://www.reinventingorganizations.com/

Brian Bogert - No Limits - Embrace Pain In Order To Avoid Suffering

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 16, 2021 60:16

I had the honor to interview Brian Bogert who for me, is a real life superhero in a sense. He has dealt with his share of adversity and he continues to brush himself off while continuing to bust through barriers to create his best self. I admire all that he has accomplished in his life and he's here to help other accomplish the same and more. He goal to impact over a billion people is lofty yet if there is anyone who can do, I'm putting my money on Brian. This was a special episode as Brian was so gracious and share so much and sometimes the conversation gave me a lump in my throat as we went deep. I sure hope you enjoy this episode as much as I did creating it with Brian. Thanks for listening! Much love, Joe Brian Bogert: Human Behavior and Performance Coach, Keynote Speaker, YouTuber, Podcaster and Course Creator Founder - Brian Bogert Companies Website: https://brianbogert.com/ No Limits: https://brianbogert.com/no-limits/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bogertbrian/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/bogertbrian YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmhaMgY8q-tMMCj0rpGg7iw LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-brian-bogert-companies/ Email: info@brianbogert.com Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.libsyn.com Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to: https://joecostelloglobal.lybsyn.com Follow Joe: https://linktr.ee/joecostello Transcript Joe: Ok, today, I want to welcome my guests, Mr. Brian Boger. Brian, welcome. Brian: What's up, Joe, I love I love that shirt you're rockin no limits, soldier, right there. I Joe: Hey, Brian: Love it. Joe: There you go. You know what? So since we're talking about the shirt, we've brought it up. Explain to me the purpose behind this shirt. I know that you give all the money away to Brian: One hundred Joe: Charity. Brian: Percent of the proceeds, huh? Yeah, so I'll first describe kind of what no limits is just high level and then we'll talk about kind of where this is. No limits is is part of our branding. And it's this belief that I genuinely feel like we all can live with no limits. It's not that we're unlimited and we can do anything we want. It's that we can live significantly beyond the limits we place on ourselves and certainly be on the way the world has placed limits on us. And so that infinity sign, there's a lot of intentionality around it, which is really about awareness and intentionality and how those weave together to help us find who we are so we can live with no limits with our life in alignment. And so as we've been building this brand, there's always been this altruistic philanthropic side of me. Everything I do and desire for me to be financially successful is also for my ability to distribute that wealth back out into the community. So when we had an opportunity that people started to really attach to the brand and what they were doing were like, you know what, let's make some apparel. And we've got, I think, five different t shirt designs, both in men and women. We actually also have a dog design, too. I'll explain that in a second. Brian: But the reason we did it is one hundred percent just to allow people to attach to it. You see, there's not Brian Bogot companies and stuff written all over it. Right? It's really the infinity in no limits and embedding people in that. And one hundred percent of the proceeds are going to nonprofits that we're going to rotate on a quarterly basis. And so, you know, it's just another cool way. You know, I'm not gonna make a bunch of money off t shirts. That wasn't something that needed to move the needle. But, you know, people can attach to the brand and feel like they're doing something better. Their investments also helping more lives. And a big part of who I am, I'm on a mission to impact a billion lives by twenty, forty five. This is just another way to perpetuate that. The dog shirts are that we're an animal family and my wife is like obsessed with them. And she's like, we can't have apparel without matching dog apparel, which just saw me die laughing because I still think it's so ridiculous. But I love my wife to death and every time my animals wear clothing, it just makes me laugh. But it's been cool because, yeah, those are those who go to support our local Humane Society and ASPCA as well. So some of the proceeds. Joe: That's great. Yeah, and it's a beautiful shirt. I'm always nervous about when you can't you can't feel it first, but when I took it out, I was like, I don't know. I've been in the gym a lot lately. I might be a little a little too big for him. It's like fit perfect. It makes me actually look better than I should look. So I Brian: Well, Joe: Appreciate Brian: You know, Joe: It. Brian: I'm super anal about t shirts as well, so I'm actually happy that he said that because I before we ever posted them, before we started selling them, we actually tested a bunch of shirts. And I wanted to make sure that they fit and they felt like I like shirts to fit. Not that that means everybody else needs to like what I like. But I've had so many other t shirts and different apparel that they just don't fit right in. You never wear it. And I'm like, if I if I'm going to buy something for my own brand or have something for somebody else, I want something that people feel comfortable in. Joe: Yeah, Brian: So Joe: Yeah, Brian: I'm Joe: So Brian: Happy that you feel that way. Joe: Yeah, and besides wearing it out like normal, like this with her jeans and whatever, I definitely am going to get some more because I think it's cool and it'll be a gym shirt for me. And then I think people will come to me and go, that's cool, what is that? And then send more people your way. So that's my goal. Brian: I'm so grateful, yeah, for the gym one, you're going to get one of those embrace pain to avoid suffering shirts. That's Joe: There you go. That's Brian: That's Joe: Right, Brian: That's that's the motto in the gym that's Joe: That's Brian: Going to help push you, man. Joe: Right. All right, deal. So I always I know you've told your story a zillion times, I'm sure. And I want you to tell as much or as little as you want to bring us up to today. So however, you can kind of let the audience Brian: All Joe: Know. Yeah. Brian: Hold it a million times, so I feel like I know the points I want to hit, so I'll just I'll just run with it. I'm going to ask you and anybody who's listening, unless they're driving to just close your eyes for just one second. And I want you to imagine going to a store, having a successful shopping trip, heading back out to your car. And it's a beautiful day. And you think you're just going on with the rest of your life like it was just any other normal shopping trip. And then you get to your car and you turn your head and you see a truck barreling 40 miles an hour right at you with no time to react. Go and open your eyes. That's where this portion of my story begins. My mom, my brother and I went to our local Wal-Mart to get a one inch paint brush. And anybody who's known me followed me or even in the few minutes we've been talking can probably tell. I've always had a lot of energy. It's the first one of the car and not a surprise to my mom because I want to get home and put that paint brush to use. You know, this is back in the days, though, before they had key fobs. So I had to literally wait for my mom and brother to close the gap of those four or five feet, catch up, stick the key in the door and unlock it to get on the other way. Brian: And as it happened, the truck pulls up in front of the store and a driver, a middle passenger, get out. And the passenger all the way to the right felt the truck moving backwards. So he did what any one of us would do, Joe, and he screwed up and put his foot on the brake instead of the gas combination of shock and forced Zoom up onto the steering wheel, up onto the dashboard. And before you know it, he's catapulting across the parking lot 40 miles an hour right at us with no time to react. Now, we were in that spot, so we went up into the median, went up to the car in the median, ultimately knocked me to the ground, ran over me diagonally, tore my spleen, left the tire tracks, scar on my stomach and continued on to completely sever my left arm from my body. So there I am laying on the parking lot on one hundred and fifty three day in Phoenix, Arizona, my mom and brother just watched the whole thing happen and they look up and they see my arm 10 feet away. Fortunately for me, so did my guardian angel. She saw the whole thing take place, she was a nurse that walked out of the store right when this happened. Brian: She saw the literal life and limb scenario in front of her and she rushed immediately into action. She focused on life. First, she came over and stopped the bleeding and she saved my life. And then she instructed some innocent bystanders to run inside, grab a cooler filled with ice and get my detached limb on ice within minutes. Had she not done one or both of those things, I either wouldn't be here with you today or I'd be here with you today with the cleaned up stop. That's just the facts, right? So I will expedite a whole lot of the rest of that particular story. We can dig deeper if you want to. But as you can imagine, there was years of recovery that came from this. Twenty four surgeries and a whole lot of lessons and observations. What I've definitely learned is that I have an extremely unique story. I'm sure that your listeners weren't expecting it to go there today. But what I've also realized is that we actually all have unique stories. And what's important is that we pause and become aware of the lessons we can extract from those stories and then become intentional. How do we apply to our lives? And we all have the ability to do that. We also all have the ability to tap into the collective wisdom of other people's stories, to shorten our own curve, to learn something to share with you two primary ones. Brian: And then we'll just see where the conversation goes. The first is I learned not to get stuck by what has happened to me, but instead get moved by what I can do with it, and the second I didn't realize until far later. I was a kid. I was seven, eight, nine, 10, 11, 12 years old when I was going through the meat of all of this. Yes, I was the one doing the the therapy. Yes, I was the one having the surgeries done to me. But I was also being guided through the process. So I was a little bit in a fog. My parents, however, were not they were intimately aware of the unceasing medical treatments, years of therapy and the idea of seeing their son grow up without the use of his left arm was a source of great potential suffering for them. So they willed themselves day in and day out to do what was necessary. It was tough to embrace the pains required to ultimately strengthen and heal me. So whether it was intentional or not, what they did was they ingrained in me a philosophy and a way of living which I embody and everything I do now, which was to embrace pain, to avoid suffering. And I believe when that's done right, that's also where we gain freedom. Brian: So it's these concepts that I use to not only become this unique injury, but how my business partners and I scaled our last business to 15 million with the span of a decade. And now how is a human behavior performance coach and entrepreneur? I flip that on its head. You will have individuals and organizations just like you, just like the people listening, become more aware, more intentional, and who they already are, their most authentic selves. You see, I believe that's when magic starts to happen and the door starts to crack to perspective, motivation and direction. And that's when people have the opportunity to have joy, freedom and fulfillment and to back into their lives. And those are the reasons I'm spending the next twenty five years of my life committed to trying to impact a billion lives on this planet. Because if we can reduce the level of suffering that people experience, which there's a lot, and we give them the chance to experience joy, freedom and resentment, we give them the permission to be exactly who they are and know the world will embrace them and love them for exactly who they are. And we can bring vulnerability and authenticity into everything we do, which are the glue that binds human connection. Then we can come together and leave this world a lot more. Beautiful place for my kids, my grandkids. Joe: Well, let me start here first. Do you still are you still in contact with that nurse? Brian: You know, I am actually on a mission to find her right now. I've never spoken with her. And so part of the reason I also talk about that role in that process on so many platforms is I want there to be a lot of exposure and hopefully the world is going to help me track her down because I just want to say thank you. Joe: Sure, that time that I've heard the story, it was like, I need to ask him that question, I'm just wondering if they're in connection with each other. Brian: We're not I'm actively looking for her right now. Joe: Got it during the time you were going to school. How did you handle I would assume you were treated differently, right, Brian: Of Joe: By Brian: Course. Joe: Your by your friends and teachers and they always whatever the case might be. How did you handle that? Brian: Yes, so I think I handled it from a place to survive and protect myself, although I didn't realize that's what I was doing until far later. I didn't I didn't like being the center of attention and I didn't like. Being defined. By boundaries that were placed upon other people's view of what they'd be capable of in my scenario, and so I got this really adamant approach to I'm not going to be defined by those boundaries and I'm going to break beyond boundaries for my entire life, because why not? If I want to do something, the limitation is inside. Right. I need it. And there may be a physical limitation in some ways, but like I can always overcome the physical limitation. If I have a will and desire, that's great enough. But what happened right to protect myself is I created this intellectual narrative, which was I'm good, I'm strong, I'm capable. I don't need anybody's help. And it served me really well for a long time during that period of time, I was able to really hone my emotional intelligence because I got so good at wanting to divert attention from me that I got very strong in my ability to read people, read environments, read situations so that I could almost ensure that that attention wasn't on me. And so it honed those skill sets. And it also honed my mental toughness, which, again, I'm a huge believer is a big part of the equation to be kind of successful. That intellectual narrative ended up biting me later in life. And when I was 20 years old, I broke my arm in a snowboarding injury. Brian: Compound fracture almost lost it again. And that was the moment that I realized the power of our narratives because the world bought into mine. I had I had sung that preached that narrative so strong. I never even said those words right. That's just the message that I was sending with my energy and how I showed up and how I interacted. And now all of a sudden, I'm in my most vulnerable period ever as an adult, not having the same infrastructure and support system that I had at home that I probably took for granted up until that point, how much support I had. Now, sitting in this vulnerable position, I didn't have the courage to ask for help. So I had a lot of friends, a lot of family. Nobody showed up and they didn't show because they didn't love me or didn't care about me. And they showed up because they just believe Brian's goody strong is capable. He doesn't need anybody else. And so that's kind of the during that whole school adolescent period. Right. It was really about me proving that I could overcome the physical limitations, that I could protect myself, that I could get myself there. But what I really downplayed the importance of was the importance of human connection. So that whole next year of my life, I shifted to vulnerability and authenticity and how do I hone the relationships that I was developing so strongly through emotional intelligence to be able to focus on a true connection. Joe: So it sounds like your parents were super special. Did they go out of their way and whatever normal way for them to handle it, to not limit you from doing anything like when somebody knocked on your door and said, hey, can Brian come out and play and we're going to play football? Did they say, Brian, go have fun? Like, is Brian: Yeah. Joe: That the approach they took? Brian: You know, nobody's ever asked me that question, you just gave me chills when you asked that. I think it's a blend, honestly. They did. They never wanted to be the reason that I didn't do something. But as you would expect, all parents have a protection mechanism that kicks in. So immediately after the accident, I was I was in slings and during surgeries for a few years. And so that first year after the accident, no, I wasn't going out and playing at the level that I would have right between seven and eight. But it wasn't long after that that it was it opened up. We started having good friends in the neighborhood. We played football in the street. We played basketball on the street. We rode bikes nonstop. And so they were never going to tell me that I couldn't do those things. Now, what they didn't want me to do, they didn't want me to join a football team where we were playing tackle because for obvious reasons, I get hit really hard on that arm. Even though the doctor said the bone wasn't strong, we don't know. Right. So so they would limit it in terms of like, exactly the application. But at the same time, they got so used to me doing what I was doing that whenever the phone rang and it was somebody a number that my mom didn't know back then, she was expecting insert branded something again because I needed I think they appreciated the fact that that's who I was when I was born. Brian: I mean, I was always the guy that was pushing the limits even before this. This gave me perspective in humility that I wouldn't have had otherwise. And so they at least were aware enough to recognize, like Brian's got a higher risk threshold and probably has an even higher one after the accident than he would have had anyway. And they they knew that they needed to give me those outlets to be able to spread my wings and be free. So they always encouraged. Right. Like, if I wanted to go mountain bike and do jumps, they'd be like, OK, you're going to get hurt. And then if I got hurt, we'd figure it out. Right? I mean, within reason, they gave me the freedom. I think they made the right decision to not let me play tackle football. Who knows what could have happened, but did I play on other sports teams? Absolutely. So, yeah, I think my parents really did encourage and they still do to this day, despite the fact that they know you know, I think my mom has just gotten used to constantly being on edge, like expecting that Brian is going to do something crazy and get hurt. That's how we find our limits in this world, is we've got to push them. Joe: Well, tell her to not follow your Instagram account so she doesn't have to see you squatting. Four hundred pounds. I saw that. I saw the photo of you sitting there. I'm like, oh, my gosh, I can't watch this. This is killing me. Brian: Well, I mean, and that's one of those things I had to learn, right? I mean, my biggest limitation for some of those things is my hand strength. And so I have to get creative and I figure out how to do things. And when I first started deadlifting, I mean, I knew I couldn't deadlift with a normal bar because of the imbalance in my body already, but I could deadlift with a bar and protect myself for the most part. Well, that worked really well until the one time that my strap broke Joe: Oh. Brian: While I was lifting. And this was like early on. So I had to, like, learn these things. Well, my instinct wasn't to just let go of the bar on the other side. And I think so what you saw the other day, I wasn't 400 pounds. I think it was two hundred and Joe: Yeah, Brian: Forty. Joe: I know, I just I couldn't remember, Brian: But Joe: But. Brian: But I but I have I have reps significantly above 300 pounds. I don't say that to impress. I rest to the point I was doing that in this one scenario when the strap broke and I didn't let go on my right hand because it wasn't instinct, because I wasn't expecting the strap to break. And this was a learning experience because it tweaked me really bad. And I mean, I didn't deadlift for a few months after that. I had to recover. But once I started getting back into it, it changed my form. It changed my focus, it changed my attention. And now I'm like intimately aware of, like every movement on the strap. And I'm like ready at any moment to just drop so that I don't tweak my back. But my core strength is a big part of my ability to not be in debilitating pain every single day. Those deadlifts keeping my upper thoracic, keeping my shoulders, keeping my back because I don't have a lot on the left side of my back, keeping them strong is essential for me to not be literally in debilitating pain every day. Brian: And so those are the those are the pains I have to embrace. I've got to embrace the pain of figuring out how do I lift in a way that pushes my body, gets the hip hinge in there, gets the movement, my back and my core strength and all that stuff engaged in a way that's going to allow me to maintain a livable amount of pain in my back because the imbalance versus debilitating suffering. So it's funny that you mention that. But yeah, I think my mom is just used to it. My wife is too. I mean, my wife is incredible. She literally is like I know that if you set your mind to something, you're just going to go do it. And there's a high degree. At some point you going to get hurt. She's like, but what am I going to, like, box you in and continue? Like, you're just going to go do it anyway. I was like, yeah, see, like, I love that, right? It's like just let people let people spread their wings. Joe: That's right. Well, that's great before we get off of this subject and move on. I know that you and Blake do mountain biking, Brian: Yeah, we do, Joe: Right? Brian: Yeah. Joe: And that's like a big thing he loves to do with you and you with him. And so that's got to be at least I mean, I've done it and that's a lot on the arms. Brian: Yes, so what's funny is I have no other perspective because I didn't learn how to mountain bike until after my injury, I didn't I didn't learn how to mountain bike when my when my son did at five and six and seven. So, yeah. It isn't in balance. Yeah, it is difficult. And I did it for almost. Let's see, I did it for probably 20 years before I actually started adapting my bike. And so there's no tricep, so Tricep and Laerte are the two muscles that you absorb, all of it, all of the impact with when you're mountain biking outside of the suspension. So I don't have a lot of tricep. So there's an automatic imbalance in my body, but I've learned how to balance it because I didn't know any other way and I was motivated and wanted to do it. Mountain biking is one of the few places that I'm absolutely free. And the reason I'm absolutely free there is I don't have the ability to think about anything else. Almost any other workout I do, almost anything I do like there's time to think. Mountain biking, you've done it right. You know, like you've got to be on your game. Brian: One hundred percent focused on what's ahead of you. And so because of that, I've learned how to how to modify my body, my weight distribution, the way that I actually handle the handlebars. But two years ago about I started researching modifications for people with upper extremity injuries. And I landed with this company in the UK that they're actually right now building a product for me that I think is going to take my mountain biking to the next level, which is cool. But what I did is I got a steering stabilizer almost like the ones they have on their bikes. There's a company in the US called Hoby and they make these steering stabilizers for for mountain bikes. So I ended up getting that which what it essentially does is it's a spring unit which snaps the bars back to being straight. I thought it was going to help me more going downhill than uphill. What's crazy is it's actually helped my climbing more than anything because I can pick a line and put all the power I need to in the pedals and not worry about the imbalance in the handles, because it'll it'll keep my lane pure Joe: Yeah. Brian: And with slight, rigid and then downhill. It just gives me more confidence as well, because if I were to hit a bump and it goes on the left side, your weight goes forward, the handlebars collapse. Right. And just like twist the bars, this steering stabilizer stabilizer allows me to balance it with the muscle structure having the right arm and how I can balance my body on the left and then hope, hope he breaks is also another brand that I actually found out they just released this last year, a brake unit that has two master cylinders in one unit so you can have your front and your rear brake both on the same side. I've always never used the front brake in mountain biking Joe: Sure, Brian: Because my right Joe: All that Brian: Side Joe: Pressure. Brian: Is always Joe: Yes. Brian: What you want to be able to use primarily anyway, right? Whereas road biking, which I do a lot of the front brake is more important. Mountain biking, the rear one's more important. So I was always able to get around the corners, but I never had the confidence that I could actually stop and modulate my brakes effectively. So I would take things a little more cautiously now that I have these brakes on both sides and I can truly modulate, like just with, like little twitches in my fingers and the steering stabilizer and it's changed my mountain biking game. I can go out there and rip at a level that I've never been able to with confidence. And then there's like I said, these are these two other products that I'm really excited about. But, you know, one of the things I never knew any different, I wanted to do it and I figured it out. And I think that, again, that's one of those things that I could have just told myself, like, nope, you can't do it. You don't have tricep, you don't have a lot. But I genuinely believe if you want something badly enough and you take the time to think, plan and put things into trial and error, you start to realize you can do a lot more than what the world conditions us to believe we're capable of. Mountain biking is just another example for me on many things that I've been able to break those boundaries and expectations. I see I go mountain biking. People are like, how do you do it? I'm like, how do you do it? I mean, you could you could explain to me with a fully abled body how you do it, but I wouldn't understand because that's not my experience. Joe: Yeah, that's crazy. So, Blake, is your son Addisons, your beautiful redheaded little daughter? With what happened to you, do you believe that certain people on this earth are have the power to get through some of these things where I just think about what you've gone through? I think about even my own brother, who, when he was young, why they were there at my parents house, they were splitting wood with one of those hydraulic splitters. That goes really slow. Right. But the Brian: Oh, Joe: Log Brian: Yeah. Joe: Slipped and he had like these two fingers crushed Brian: Yeah, Joe: And Brian: Yeah. Joe: Then, you know, reconstructed but not usable in a sense. Then he lost his son at 21 years old in a car accident. And I think about this and I go, God, I. I am not I don't have the capacity to handle something like that. And I guess when it happens, it's different. Right? You figure it out. But I almost feel like certain people I don't know if they just they're born to be able to handle these things. And if this is more for the audience Brian: Yeah. Joe: That might hear this and go, oh, God, there's all of these things that come into people's lives that they're they're given to deal with whatever that might be. And is it just the chosen ones that can handle it? That's why they've it just doesn't make any sense to me. So that's. Brian: Yeah, so. I really appreciate the direction your questions are going. By the way, I just have to compliment you on that. You're asking a depth of questions that don't often get contemplated. And I think that there's a lot of truth behind even what you said. You know, it's interesting if you even think about what you just said when you were talking about your brother, you say, I look at him and I'm not sure that I could have handled it. And the reason I pay attention to that is because that is what I truly believe in, how the world has viewed me, they have viewed my limits through their own lens of what they believe they're capable of. I don't think that people truly know what they're capable of until they're tested. And that can be done either intentionally or externally, right? Sometimes we get tested not by our choice. Clearly getting run over by a truck was not by my choice, but it was a test. And I could show my strength to myself into the world by how I stood back up and what I've now done with it. Why I say I have a unique story is it doesn't matter the trauma that I experienced because it's unique solely to me. The trauma that your brother experienced, the trauma that other people experience with divorce or loss of a loved one or financial despair or like you name it, we all have our own unique challenges that we face. And I don't care who you are, if you're still on this planet and you're still standing. You are a survivor. None of us get through this world unscathed. Brian: None of us. Perspective allows us to really pay attention to what other people are going through, but what perspective is really doing is allowing us the opportunity to get in someone else's world to gain perspective, to apply to our own. So it's not necessarily about what each one of us are inherently able to handle. It's that I think we're all dealt a unique set of cards and it's how we play those cards that matter. So the thing about pain, and I'm just going to speak to that, because my experience was pain, your brother's experience was pain. He had physical pain, probably emotional and spiritual pain with the loss of two fingers and a deep emotional, mental, spiritual, and probably manifested as physical pain with the loss of his son. Pain, that's what it is. Now, pain can't be measured independent of the person experiencing it. But the one thing we know is that it's a universal human experience, we all experience pain. And so what's important is not to question can I or could I have handled that? But just to say I've handled everything that's ever been thrown my way and I'm still standing here today. So what that tells me is you're probably capable of handling a lot more than you thought you were capable of at a prior period in your life. And if something were to happen that's devastating, right in that moment, you have to choose, is this going to define me and keep me stuck or am I going to use this as fuel to who I'm capable of becoming because of what I've gone through? That's why I said earlier I learned not to get stuck by what's happened to me, but I get moved by what I can do with it. Brian: I realize I have a gift not just in my own natural abilities and gifts and intuition and emotional intelligence and all the things. But this has given me perspective that I couldn't I couldn't have gained any other way. I can put myself in other people's shoes and know what it feels like to not be seen, to know what it feels like, to feel like nobody understands me, to know what it feels like, to have people question everything I'm capable of for my entire life, even if it has nothing to do with my physical ability, even if it's one hundred percent mental, one hundred percent job and application, they view me. As not capable of doing I know what that feels like and I've had to battle that my whole life, I don't know a single person on this planet who has never felt that way. We all feel that we all experience and it's real to each one of us uniquely so I know it's probably a lot longer of an answer than you were hoping for, but the depth of the question, I think, required that approach because it's not about what you believe you could handle based on other people's circumstances. It's about what you already have handled and what you're very capable of handling if you change the way you think and feel about what you're capable of, which, again, is typically limiting in our own belief system. Joe: So because we're doing this recording and you and I have not talked about what we could talk about or what we couldn't talk about, I want to ask this and obviously I can always edit it out. And you Brian: Free Joe: Know Brian: Game, buddy, go ahead, go ahead. Joe: What? So when does someone say, like, did you ever have these dark moments? And this is not the part of the question that I'm going to ask. This is just in front of it. And you ever have a moment that you said, why me? Like, did you ever Brian: Absolutely. Joe: Ok? Brian: Absolutely, and I have those moments still today when I get when I get hit with certain things. The reason I was able to shift out of that so quickly, I remember being seven years old and that was the first thing I remember when I woke up, one feeling like it was a dream. And then I was like in this hazy state of like what this altered reality felt like, it didn't feel real. And then it was probably a day or two before I really came to and was like awake, awake, not just like in that dazed awake. At least this is from memory, I don't know the exact timeline. This is just how I feel it. And I literally remember. That question. Weiming. What is the rest of my life going to look like, like this sucks. I felt sorry for myself. I was given the opportunity to snap out of that quickly because the uniqueness of my story drew a lot of attention to it and there was a lot of families in the ICU with us who were coming up to us saying, we're so sorry for what happened to you. This is so horrible. We can't believe how hard this must be for you as a family. Let us know whatever we can do to help. Just getting wrapped with love and support from strangers to strangers saved my life. Right. That's crazy to think about. A stranger went into action and saved my life. Had she not chosen to do that, I wouldn't be here. Brian: So I don't take that lightly, but what's happening in the ICU with these families is we start to realize that these families that are giving us just unfiltered support. Are also questioning whether or not their kid is going to survive another 30 days from the terminal illness that they're in the ICU with. Only immediate threat to my life and not at that moment knowing whether or not I'd be able to use my arm. I knew I'd be alive and over the course of the next ten years, being with those kids and all of us who wanted to rally around this cause to help more people, to bring perspective, motivation, direction to an organization that helped us so holistically in a healing process, either physically, emotionally, spiritually, whatever. Right. I lost multiple of them to their terminal illnesses over the course of the next ten years. And so although I don't think about them every day, when I'm asked questions like that, it really centers me on grounds me because I'm here happy, healthy and productive, living a life that many would dream of. And those kids didn't have the opportunity to do so. And so I have to just know and honor that it was me for a lot of reasons, I might not know all those reasons in this lifetime, I believe I know a lot of them at this point, but I still ask that question. I mean, last week was an unbelievably challenging week for me. Joe: I saw the story and, yeah, that's part of where, Brian: Yeah, Joe: You know, this Brian: I mean, Joe: Is Brian: Last Joe: Going. Brian: Week Joe: Yeah. Brian: Was an unbelievably challenging week for me, for a variety of reasons. One was around this fabricated reality, around a date that in some ways is very significant, in other ways is not significant. But coincidentally or coincidentally, I got kicked in the stomach multiple times last week. And yet it didn't really totally faze me in a way that brought me down to the deepest, darkest moments, because every time I face those things, every time I start to ask the question, why me? It starts to reveal itself faster and faster the more I go through the pain. And and and so I now have this element of trust in surrender where the literally last week I was like, why do I always have this stuff happening? Why am I the one that has to deal with this? Literally? I mean, I said to my wife last week and then in the same breath, I'm like, I know why. And so for those that did ask that question still. I would just encourage you to recognize that there absolutely is a resum. Nothing happens by accident. You could call this my accident, but this was for a purpose, it wasn't on purpose, but it was for a purpose. And I realize that now more holistically than I have in my entire life, but it's the same thing for everybody else. I mean, I guarantee that your brother has learned from his experiences and having to adapt and do things with the loss of two fingers. He's had to learn and adapt. What does it mean to be a parent? And there's so many are out there who live on their lives without their child. Still a part of it. Parents aren't meant to outlive their kids. Joe: Correct. What's Brian: Right, Joe: The what Brian: And. Joe: The worst car I could think of? Brian: And by the way, there was this pending doom around this date last week that was connected to that for me, as well as from a parent's lens now. And the data is reference to a couple times I didn't I didn't say specifically on the show, but this last Saturday, March 6th, was the day that my son, who's my little clone, my little mini me, my my only boy and my oldest. Was the exact same age to the day that I was on the day of my injury. Twenty nine years separated. And. There was a lot to that most of what happened in the 10 days leading up to it had nothing to do with my son. But they were absolutely clarifying moments that needed to take place in that window. And Saturday was kind of a new start for me and a whole variety of ways, which was just unbelievably cleansing and freeing and purifying. And so even the questions last week, why me? Why does this always happen to me? Why do I have to be the one to do this? We're very clear. I know, and I think all of us do we just fight and we resist because it's not in alignment with what the world tells us. It's not in alignment with what the narrative is externally. Right. But it's not about being the victim. It's about recognizing that if we have ownership and accountability with everything we do, we recognize that there's always a reason, there's always a cause, and there's always a way through it if we desire it enough. That's when we start to become free. Joe: Ok, so here's the the part where I want to talk about Blake and Addison really quickly, I don't want to stay because, you know, I know you're super productive, positive guy. And I don't want this episode to be like the Debbie Downer episode. But you went through a lot in your life up to this Brian: Yeah, Joe: Point. Right. Brian: Yeah, Joe: And Brian: A lot. Joe: Then, Blake, I remember you talking about this, so I'm only bringing this up because I think you've talked about Brian: Yeah, Joe: It and. Brian: I've shared publicly on stuff, I'm sure I know where you're going, Joe: Yeah, Brian: But go ahead. Joe: So so you said it is is on the spectrum, right, and so you there's an extra amount of attention that has to happen Brian: Of course, Joe: There. Right. Brian: Of course. Joe: So then you deal with that another moment where you said, why me? Like, I haven't I haven't. I gone through enough. Why me? Right. And then now you have yet a third time now with with Adderson with her here. Right. And I could be another time we go. What is it going to stop. Like why me. Right. I'm sure there's people out there that do not handle this anywhere near as well as you do. And I'm hoping your words of wisdom, if they run across this episode, that it will help them understand how you I mean, you can look at their beautiful faces and go, oh, it doesn't matter. You know, they're amazing. It just it's a it's a small little blip on the radar. But it's still some people can't even handle the bullet. So Brian: They Joe: That's, Brian: Can't. Joe: You Brian: They Joe: Know. Brian: Can't. And by the way, there's a lot more depth and truth to that statement than than you probably even realized, I mean, to the point that when we found out about our daughter's hearing loss. The audiologist actually said to us she does have loss and she could benefit from hearing devices. And I paused and I said. She could benefit, like are you saying she needs hearing aids, like is her hearing profound enough that it's not like she would benefit? She she needs it to restore it to what we would expect are going to be? And she said, yeah. I said, why didn't you just say that? And she said, because most parents don't want to hear it. And she said that even when they do want to hear it, she said, because of the reports that we get when we plug in hearing aids, even if they go through the process of getting hearing aids, even if they go through the process of doing these things, she said. Most kids, the hearing aids live in a drawer. Because of some reason, right, that either the parents don't think it's important they're embarrassed by their kid or whatever, like there's a whole slew of things. You're exactly right. And in both those moments, by the way, when we found out about our son's diagnosis on the autism spectrum and we found out about our daughter. Brian: It was it was challenging, right? It was absolutely challenging for both my wife and I and we both we both grieved in different ways. And why I choose the word grieve is any time we have a vision for our lives. And that reality that we've created gets stolen from us, we experience loss. We literally go through the grieving process, the multiple steps of grieving, sometimes it's anger that manifest first, sometimes it's just like absolute depression. But but recognize it for what it is like having something happen to your kid and realizing that they might have an altered future from what you always desired and hoped for them. You have to process that, but then once you process that and you start to realize like this doesn't define the kid, just like a mine accident didn't define me right. What this really does is it's a gift because what getting both of their diagnosis is as early as we did, what allows us to do is wrap them with services, wrap them with all the support they need to close the gap between whatever their diagnosis limits them from doing to what a typical kid might be capable of doing. It shortens that gap early in those foundational early development years so that it won't really ever hurt them. Brian: Plus, the more that we talk about it not as an ailment, but just a part of who they are, right. It's no longer a label. It becomes a term of empowerment because they recognize that like they have superpowers as a result of what their diagnoses are. So the answer is yes. There's there was absolute grieving for both my wife and I, for both children. We're well beyond that at this point. But it hung with us for a while. And and there are still moments where the difficulty and complexity of our household that most people will never understand and ours is light compared to what some other people's situations are. Right. So we keep that in perspective, too. Is it harder than most parents and most households might have to be? We believe so, but it's not about like we have got it more difficult than what they have. It's just this is the cards were dealt, so we're going to play them as best we can for both of our kids. We know how lucky they are to have us. My wife is brilliant. My wife is brilliant and what she has done to allow our kids to feel authentically who they are in safe, despite all of these things, despite the fact that they know they're different in certain ways and honoring and cherishing, encouraging them to just make do the things that make their hearts happy and stand up for what is right and know that they're worthy of receiving love like exponentially. Brian: And all these things, like my wife and I were partners, but our kids are lucky to have us at the counter to that is we also feel extremely privileged to have our kids because they have challenged me to go to depths of myself, my soul, my emotions that allow me to be more effective in the world. That had I not recognized those scenarios for what they were, which is we can handle them and let's figure out the plan forward. It probably would have made me feel stuck longer than it did. And so for those parents that are listening out there that might have kids like this or even if there's not a diagnosis, but you just have a challenging time or there's an injury or there's something like, again, nothing happens by accident. And so the only way through it is through it, and if you if you desire something on the other side, then you've got to go through and that's really what it comes down to. Joe: Really powerful and I appreciate you sharing leading up to this interview, I wanted to talk about those things and I was just like, I know he's talked about it, but I I didn't know how to actually go after it and Brian: You did it beautifully, my friend, it was Joe: Think Brian: Great. Joe: I'm grateful that you shared. And so, OK, so now you and I know this is a big jump, but I just want to I know we Brian: Yeah, Joe: Have limited Brian: No, let's go. We got it, yeah. Joe: We have limited time and I don't and I want to get to where you are today. So then you get into the insurance business. Correct. So you're in that for you grew a company. I think it was from like. Brian: Quarter million to 15 million over the span of a decade. Joe: You just picked that that was just a career that you pick at one point and. Brian: Yeah, you know what's funny, I saw depicted it sort of picked me up, I was my junior year in college, was deciding that I needed to go get an internship. And so I started looking at a whole bunch different places. And I actually ended up getting into insurance because my one of my childhood friends and my childhood girlfriend, in fact, that we grew up together. And a lot of ways I always had her parents were like second parents to me for a lot of years. And I always had a great lot of respect. But I always viewed her dad as this very successful man. But I knew nothing about what he did. And I reached out to him as a mentor, frankly, and just said, hey, I'm going out. I'm doing these interviews and I have these things. And I talked to my own parents and they're successful. They've done these things as well. But I wanted extra perspectives. And he ultimately was like, I'm going to pass on your resume to so-and-so. And if you don't get a call in three days, call me. I was like, OK, not a clue what it was. It was the only one that was in insurance. Right. Very, very amazing opportunity. And it just took off from there. And nobody grows up wanting to be an insurance, right? I mean, and if they do and if you're listening to this, I apologize if you always had a desire to be an insurance. I know there's some people who love it. I never loved it. It was a great vehicle for me. And it was a great testing ground for me to grow and develop who I was as a professional, who I was as a man. I kind of grew up in it, but yeah, no, I didn't seek out insurance. I kind of fell into it and it just it fit. Joe: Right. So while you were there with your inner voice saying there's more out there for me, I want to do more, whatever it might be. I mean, how did you make the jump then when you left Brian: Yeah. Joe: There to now what you're doing, which is the coaching and the speaking and and the podcast. And I mean, I, I look at your website and I get tired just looking at all the all the different menus that I could take a look at stuff. And then I went into the podcast when I was like, wait, is he doing actually three podcasts? Like, how is he doing all this? So how did you decide how did you decide you were going to leave insurance and then pursue the Brian Bogot we know today? Brian: Yes, so I'm going to start with the first question you asked, which was, did I always know? I knew for a long time I've always had this gut feeling that like there was something meaningful that I was meant to do. No idea what that meant. OK. And then I conditioned that out of myself, and when I first got out of college, it was like bright eyed and bushy tailed, I was going to go take over the world and make a ton of money. Right. I'm going I'm literally going to be running the company. I'm going to climb the corporate ladder. I mean, it was all external. And, you know, this is one of the things I talk about now is I chased the what like so many of us did. Right? I chased what house, what car, what amount of money, what amount of success, what image do I want to portray? What, what, what, what, what. And I lost the who along the way. And I woke up one day after having accomplished all the words that I ever desired, way earlier than I thought I would have, in a way bigger level than I ever thought I would. And I realized, like, what have I been doing all this for? The more money I made, the less I cared about money, the more I got into a successful career, the more I was like, why am I doing to myself? And then I'm running in circles with people making six, seven, eight figures who all were having high of success and they were all miserable to. Brian: And so those were the turning turning point moments over the probably the last seven to eight years, maybe six, seven years, if I'm being real honest, because when I first started coaching, it was because I had my son and I always said that I'm going to do everything for the benefit of my family always. And I did. But then six months went by when my son like that and I realized I missed all of it except the first week because I was burning the candle at both ends, I was still living the life that I was to create this abundant amount of external success and validation that I needed to prove to myself I could do it and I never recalibrated my life. So part of providing everything for my family is with finances and security and opportunity and safety and all those things. But but but it's also love and leadership and presence and connection. And I don't want to be that guy that did everything for his family, then woke up twenty five years later and never had a relationship with any of them. Brian: They decided that I didn't serve a role for them outside of money. It's not all about money. It never was all about money. And so it was the first in my life. I didn't have the people in my life, the mentors, the experience or the intellect myself to figure out how to fix it. So I hired my first coach. And he said to me, a month of working together, because you're going to be doing this, like, what are you talking about? He said you need to be coaching and speaking. So you've been on stages since you were seven because you've got a unique ability or a unique story and you have an ability that you're not afraid in front of groups. And he's like, you're all about building people and building businesses. Like you're always helping. You're always finding ways to level people up. You're always helping them connect dots. And I was like, yeah, whatever. I was like, I'm paying you a lot of money. Not that's how great I have to figure out this stuff. And I completely threw it out the window. And then it just kept trickling. It kept trickling in every single month for about nine months. Brian: And then this crazy experience happened, which again, nothing happens by accident. But the universe gave me the sign that I needed, which was he told me what I needed to hear, not what I wanted to hear. And that's when I started to desire a little bit more and started to feel like maybe I wasn't in alignment. But I had to ask the question if I'm going to jump in being in coaching, is this complementary or conflicting to everything else I had because I was so significantly invested mentally, physically, emotionally and spiritually and monetarily. Right. In this other business that we built, that was the fruits of its labor were just starting to pay off. And it's like, let's let's make sure that we forge ahead on what we're doing here. So I started coaching and speaking and I did it alongside for about five years and then summer of twenty nineteen comes around. And again, I told you, I'm running in circles with people that are miserable. And I realized my relationship with my clients started shifting to more coaching relationships. We were placing multi million, hundreds of millions, tens of millions of dollars of insurance for people. And my conversations had nothing to do with insurance with the people that I was actually interacting Joe: Right. Brian: With at the C Suite. Joe: Yeah. Brian: Right. I was coaching them on how to be better people, how to be better leaders, how to change the culture of their business, think through and problem solve on things that really had nothing to do with insurance. But the insurance was how we were in the door. And so the more that started to migrate, we have this connection moment summer twenty nineteen with my wife and I. We go away for a weekend and it was one of those that like mentally, spiritually, physically and emotionally, like brother, like our souls were bonded like we were one and we're driving back to pick up our kids and she looks, everybody goes, how would you feel if you did have to go to the office on Monday morning? And I was like, that's a pretty loaded question. Joe: No. Brian: Why don't you tell me more? Well, I had some other I had some other health stuff that impacted me pretty significantly a few years back. I'm good now. It's all all squared away. But she said, I think you let some of this stuff allow fear to enter into your world in a way I've never seen you operate. She said, I feel like you've convinced yourself that we need the money, the status, the prestige, the security, the all of the above, what's been built. She said, I'm here to tell you we don't I don't care if we live in a cardboard box. What we need is one hundred percent of you. And she said, I don't know if you see it or not, but I see you dying a little bit inside every single day. You live in insurance. And and so she said, I think you're barely scraping the surface of your potential, nor do I think you have any impact on the world that you want. And then she said, you know, there's nobody on this planet I'd rather take a bet on than you. We took a big bet on you once and it paid off. Why don't we double down on that bet and see what you can do? And so, you know, this was one of those moments where I was flooded with fear, flooded with a whole bunch of emotions. And I had to spend three months really unpacking it with complete awareness, complete intentionality, understanding where my blocks were and ultimately came to the decision that I needed to embrace the pain of walking away from the easy button, from the sure thing, to avoid the suffering of not ever knowing what I could become or what I'd be capable of doing from an impact perspective. Brian: So you fast forward to today and you know, I spent 10 months unpacking that business left at the time, the best year ever in that industry, the year I left and was simultaneously building the foundation for where we could go. And, you know, I'm not sure if I said it or not yet on this show. I think I did. Yeah, but but that's that's now where I'm so clear and convicted on this billion lives. I genuinely believe, like we've got an opportunity to to change the world and make people feel at a level that they've never felt and feel free. And so I know what that miserable, dark place looks like. I've spent a lot of my life in moments like that. No one deserves to feel that way, but a lot of people do. And right now, I feel more free, more fulfilled, happier and more like myself than I have in my entire life. Everybody deserves to feel how I'm feeling right now. And so when I started to get the curiosity, I didn't even lean into it. My wife pushed me. And she, along with my other coach, told me what I needed to hear, not what I wanted to hear, and it's not lost on me, the courage it took in my wife to take that leap of faith with me and give me the push knowing it could upset her entire lifestyle. And so that's what I had to honor because my kids are watching, I don't want my kids to see me do what I want my kids to see me do what's right. Joe: Incredible. I love it, so your podcast, what are there, is there are there three, is that Brian: You Joe: Right Brian: Know what, I actually Joe: Or. Brian: Don't even have my own yet, Joe: Ok. Brian: I I'm in the process of developing a few. What you've probably seen as I have Bogarts Bullets, which is a regular consistent thing, but and it's going to be repurposed into a podcast. But right now it's just on YouTube and it goes on all my social channels. We have a marriage hack's string that we've started that my wife and I, we've now done we've only done one episode, but we repurpose it into three. And then my content team and strategist's decided that there are a whole lot of thought leaders, influencers, speakers in the world that create intellectual content similar to what I have for years, Bogarts, bullets putting things out, podcasts, other pieces of content to get distributed. And then there's bloggers that are much more niche, but there's nobody that's doing both. And so he's like. If you talk about how you live, you talk about these philosophies, you talk about these guiding principles, these lessons, these things that you do. Why don't we pull the curtain back and show people behind the scenes that that's actually how you operate. And so those are the three things that you've probably found is bogus bullets, the marriage tax and then the No Limits blog. And all three of those, although they're not currently set up as podcasts, one of them will be repurposed that way. And then I'm actually in the process right now. I'll be a co-host on at least two podcasts. We're going to be launching here soon, likely three if this other concept takes off. The podcasting world has kind of changed my world in a lot of ways, in a way I never saw coming. And I've been on over one hundred and fifty other people shows in the last seven, eight months, and it's allowed me to have opportunities to meet people like you. Right. And the connection with Ken Joslyn and Steve Sams. Right. Which both were people that I was on their platforms, on their shows. Like it's allowed me to align myself with incredible individuals on this planet so that we can truly have collective impact. So those are the three shows that currently exist. But they're not podcast currently. Joe: Got it. OK, so you have things coming up, I know that you're doing the Ken Joslin's Brian: Yep, Joe: Boot camp, right? Brian: Yep, yep, I'm doing his boot camp in April, I've done two of his I've got some other speaking events coming up. And then we've also got a few things launching that I'm really excited about. So we're still doing all of our work with no limits university, which is really like the concepts and the philosophies to help people understand who they are, leading them on intrinsic journey. But we also have another entity in a movement that's called Who before what that's launching as we speak, which is really an attempt to help us change the language and narrative in society about putting more emphasis on what we do versus who we are. And it's not that one or both don't matter. It's that they both matter. But one needs to lead, which is who. And so we're going to change the narrative because it's this whole idea that you go to a networking event. And the first question everybody asks is, what do you do? And even if you asked who you are, like, tell me who you are. Ninety eight percent of people answer with what they do, not who they are. Joe: So Brian: Part of the Joe: True. Brian: Pain and suffering that exists on this planet, as so many people don't know who they are. And so a lot of the core of the work with everything we do with our coaching and the No Limits university and those things are all about that. But we're actually creating a specific movement to bring into conscious awareness this idea of who needs to be before what. Joe: I love that is the university and the who before. What are they separate from your actual coaching piece Brian: They're Joe: That you Brian: All Joe: Do Brian: There, it's all kind of integrated, Joe: Ok? Brian: So, yeah, my my I would say my one to one coaching is the only thing that's kind of outside of that umbrella. It all fits on the same coaching philosophies. But just with the people I work with one to one, it's it's just inherently different than the other structure that we have. But it's the same philosophies, what you'll know about me and a lot of what we do with the no limits you and everything is this idea that we truly have the ability, if we are aware enough and influential enough to build a life of alignment that can become self-regulating. So for me, I'm very clear on who I am. I'm very clear on where I'm headed. I'm very clear on the impact I want to have, as well as the hierarchy of importance in my life. Family being first. Right. After that, because I'm so clear, everything I do is in alignment with where I'm headed. So when you ask the question, are they all, yeah, they're integrated because they're all holistically apart and in alignment of where we're going to impact a billion lives. How those are translated look a little bit different. But they are all towards the same intent, which is to impact a billion lives. Joe: So it's the YouTube channel, it's eventually some podcasts on their way. It's but no limits university. There's the Who before what portion of that? There's the coaching, which is one on one with you. Correct. Speaking engagements. When when? I mean, obviously, you still do it virtually, but you're actually going to be live at that bootcamp coming Brian: Yep, Joe: Up in Brian: Yep. Joe: April. So as that opens up again, I mean, when I watched you on the Growth Now summit, which I attended, your portion of, it was brilliant. I Brian: Oh, Joe: You Brian: Thank Joe: Know, I Brian: You. Joe: Just said, I mean, you're an amazing speaker. Brian: Thank you. Joe: You're just not talking to us. But you bring people in to the story. Brian: Thank Joe: And Brian: You. Joe: I just Brian: Thank Joe: Sat Brian: You. Joe: There and I was like, oh, this is unbelievable. Like, I would have paid thousands of dollars to Brian: Thank Joe: Watch. Brian: You. Joe: So it Brian: Thank Joe: Was amazing. Brian: You. Joe: Did I miss somewhere on your website? Because it's just so much on there. I can't figure out. Brian: No, Joe: But Brian: You Joe: Is Brian: Didn't miss you didn't Joe: It. Brian: Miss anything. There's going to be new sections actually built on the website, Zoom. Let's put it this way. You listed a lo

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Want over Should — AoA Series #6

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 15, 2021 41:53

If you look at all the bad habits that you've been trying to stop for a decade they all have one thing in common: They are all things you're telling yourself you SHOULD stop doing. What if thinking you “should” is what keeps you stuck? And what if getting in touch with your wants, in a deep way, is the quickest way to get you unstuck?"The want is that very simple impulse that is moving us, that moves us to have a closer relationship with our loved ones. It is a constant pull that leads us all the way down the developmental line. If we allow it, it will take us all the way to freedom."If you look at all of the bad habits you have been trying to stop for a decade, you will find they all have one thing in common. They are all things you are telling yourself you should stop doing. The same is likely true for the things you tell yourself you should be doing more of, finishing a project, going to the gym, calling your mom. What if thinking you should is what keeps you stuck? What if getting in touch with your wants in a deep way is the quickest way to get unstuck? Let's get to the bottom of this. Brett: Joe, I would think this is pretty obvious, but you usually have a unique definition of things. What exactly do you mean by should?Joe: Should is really a mechanism of shame. It is. There's a saying that says that shame is the locks that keep the chains of bad habits in place. Should is like a really bad management technique. Energetically, it's oppressive. Intellectually, it's control-based. Emotionally, it's rigidity and neurologically, it's a threat. If you say to somebody, "You should really do that," there is a threat in that. What's interesting is, that same energy really doesn't happen in certain cultures. When you see, particularly, more indigenous cultures that I've been a part of and seeing that whole should telling people thing just doesn't happen, at least energetically, it doesn't happen. When I mean energetically, I don't mean energetically in a spiritual new age way. I just literally mean the energy in which you are talking to the person. That's what I think it is. You're right. They are the things that keep your bad habits in place. Shoulds are just really ineffective. I'll tell you the story where I learned this. I was like 26 years old and I decided I was going to be brutally honest with myself. I wrote down a list of everything about myself that I didn't want to admit to myself. Then I folded it away and I put it away and I found it like six months, maybe a year later. I went through the list and I was like, "How many of these things have changed?" Remarkably, most of them had. I was like, "Wow, that's amazing. I did nothing and they just changed," just the recognition of them changed, awareness changed them.Then I looked through all the ones that hadn't changed and to a tee, each single one of them had a very heavy should attached to it. That's when I started to realize that this way of managing ourselves by telling ourselves we should do things is just really ineffective.Brett: To keep it simple around the definition of should, we're talking about the moment that we tell ourselves that we should do something.Joe: Well-- the voice in the head will tell you that you should do something and that's the most obvious thing, but there's also an energetic should that happens. It's almost a muscular response or a neurological response to something and it doesn't always have to have the verbal, "You should do this." You could just reach for the double flourless chocolate cake and you'll just feel that "er" inside of you and that is just a nonverbal should. I think it's really important to see it as both.Brett: What's wrong with controlling ourselves in this way? If these shoulds are pointing us towards the things that we want or don't want to be doing, what's causing that to get in the way?Joe: It's because you've put an extra layer on it. If you're just in the wants, it's an amazing fluid thing. Then when it gets into the shoulds, it creates the threat, like I said and a rigidity. As an example, if I try to control a two-year-old and I have that energy of like "rah", “You will do this, you should do this”. There's one of two responses that happen in any human. If I did it to you right now, "Hey, you should speak differently on this podcast." It immediately creates one of two things in you. Let's do it for the audience here. "You should be listening to this podcast better. You are not paying close enough attention."If I'm treating you like that, there's one of two responses. One of those responses is going to be rebellion. There's just something innate that's like "er". No response. That's not a really effective way to create anything. It's just creating no's. The other thing that it does is you're like, "Oh, you're right, I should." It's this submission. It's not surrender. It's submission. It's like, "I am weak and I will just do what you say." Then you've got a whole bunch of disempowered people and that doesn't really help much either. Especially if you're in a company, you want a company full of empowered people or you want a community full of empowered people, or you want yourself to feel empowered. Every time you're using the should, what's happening is that you are either creating your own internal rebellion, which is why you haven't done the things you've been telling yourself you should do for decades, because you're rebelling against it. Or you're creating a disempowered situation inside yourself. You're creating more of a victim mentality to this voice in your head that's being abusive.Brett: Interesting. What I notice about myself is, that when I think about not telling myself what I should do or shouldn't do anymore, there becomes this fear that I'll just become lazy or some couch potato and I just won't do the things that I should do as I use that word.Joe: [chuckles] Totally, exactly.Brett: What's your response to that? What happens if we stop doing the should, if we stop setting out a path for what we want from ourselves from a perspective of being conscious of the risks and the threats?Joe: Great questions. This is that inherent goodness thing that we've spoken about before, which is basically-- the idea is that you are a lazy slob, piece of shit, just going to pick your ass and live off of other people unless you tell yourself you should do something. You know what I mean? Could you imagine if you thought about somebody else that way? Unless I tell Joe that he should do a podcast, he's just never going to fricking do it. I got to tell him he should do it. It's a nonsensical thing to really think like, "Here I am doing this podcast. Nobody told me I should do it. I wanted to do it." If you think about kids from zero to eight years old, there's no internal should. They're doing all sorts, they're developing crazy amounts compared to any other time in life. They're learning all sorts of things. It's all just because they're following their wants. On one level, that's a really important thing to note. On the other hand, you actually may become a couch potato for a while, which sounds a little weird. The thing is, if you have been under threat for an extended period of time, there's going to be a need to relax. There's going to be a need to recover. If you're going cold turkey on your shoulds, you might actually just need to slow down for a bit. It's not going to be a couch potato. The couch potato thing happens when you burn out and then you tell yourself you shouldn't be burning out. You should stop playing video games. You should stop laying on the couch. You should stop. You should stop. You should stop. Then you really will go into full couch potato mode. If the natural burnout happens with the should, then it looks like depression. There might be a time where you need some more rest, where you need to recover. You see this happen in schools all the time, when there's this thing called unlearning or un-schooling or something like that, where kids are taken out of the school that have burnt out. They take like five or six months and do very little. Then all of a sudden, they learn three or four times as quickly as they were in school. There's lots of studies on this. You're basically saying, "If I don't put myself under threat of a should, if I don't tell myself that I'm bad if I don't, then I won't." It's just not my experience at all. My experience is that the people who are most generative in their life are people who want to do shit, not who feel like they should do.Brett: It sounds like it takes time to shift paradigms of thinking. This reminds me a little bit of a thought experiment--Joe: Hold on a second. That may be true. That may not be true. Don't assume that one though, at least for people listening. For me, turning off the shoulds in the voice in my head was very quick. It didn't take a tremendous amount of time. Once I really just understood, "Oh, this shit doesn't work." If you know that you have a screw gun and every time you use the screw gun it strips screws, you're pretty much not going to use that screw gun. It's not going to take a lot of time to figure that out. If you start telling yourself you should stop using shoulds, it could take years.Brett: That makes sense. This reminds me of the thought experiment of having the voice in your head be a roommate. If you were to go to talk to somebody like a roommate or a friend and they were the person that's just going to tell you what you should do, versus the kind of person that helps you find what you want, then you might either stop going to that person, because it doesn't feel like you're really getting helped, or you might become dependent on them telling what you should do.Joe: Most humans would just move out. Some of us are engineered or programmed to give up our own empowerment for a person like that. That's right. Most of us who had a boss who spoke to us like that should voice in our head, we would quit or we would be miserable. If that “should voice” in your head is really strong and really loud, there is a strong case that you're miserable, whether you see it or not.Brett: As we release ourselves from the oppression of these shoulds and we start listening to what we want and trusting that our wants are inherently good and healthy for us-- let's get into the wants side of this then. How would you define wants?Joe: The want is just that impulse that moves through you, that animates your actions. That is what the want is. The should is just this egoic layer on top of it that slows the whole thing down. Let me explain. You're sitting and you think to yourself, "I should exercise." What's actually happening is there's an impulse and a want to exercise and it shows up. Instead of just like, "Oh, cool," and doing 10 jumping jacks, you say to yourself, "I should go to the gym." Then that just destroys your chances of actually working out or at least very much lowers your chances of working out.The want is just that very simple impulse that's moving us, that moves that eight-year-old, that five-year-old, that three-year-old. It moves the toddler to walk better. It moves the crawler to toddle. It moves us to speak. It moves us to have a closer relationship with our loved ones. It is a constant pull that leads us all the way down the developmental line. If we allow it, it'll take us all the way to awakenings and freedom.Brett: What if I'm listening to my want and my want is to have a big piece of chocolate cake?Joe: That's a really good question. There's one other piece that I think is really important to explain. The thing is that wants are somatically expansive. They're intellectually empowering. The want is very different, if you attach to it or if you don't attach to it. If you attach to, let's say, having that girlfriend Jennifer, then you're in craving, which is different than want. The want is just that impulse. It's just that empowering expansive impulse. If you look at the cake and you're in that empowering expansive place, that's very different, than the way most people want a cake, what they think is wanting a cake, which either this struggle, "I want it, but I don't want it. I want it. I don't want it. I want it. I don't want it." That's not a clean want. There's still some refinement that needs to go there or there's just that unconscious shoving the cake in their mouth and calling it a want. The want is something that feels very expansive. If you look at something like a chocolate cake and it feels very expansive to sit and eat that thing, then yes, follow the want. Because the thing about the wants in general is that you have to follow them to deepen into them. What that means is you want to follow the chocolate cake because you want to have this sense of pleasure. Great, have the sense of pleasure. Then you start finding out what the deeper sense pleasures are.You follow that want home and you find out it has seven more beautiful siblings. If the want is clean, it doesn't matter if it's a short-term or a long-term-- healthy in your mind and your superego, it's far more about allowing that movement, so you can find the next step. You can't want to run unless you've wanted to learn how to walk. You have to actually get to the walking point to have an effective next level of want. That's how it works is that the wants move us. A toddler, they just want to walk and walk well. Maybe as a toddler, you want to run, but then you can want to play baseball and then you can want to play basketball and then you can want to play basketball really, really well.It's the same thing with our wants. When we start really getting in touch with our wants, then they really transform. For example, the want is, “I want a million dollars” and there's some shame with that and so it's not a clear impulse. Then we're like, "What is that clear impulse?" It's like, "Oh, I want to be empowered."Brett: That sounds very relevant to a career path as well. I heard a story recently from a friend who's a lawyer. Halfway through their first semester, they were like, "Okay, I'm not going to do this. I don't want to be a lawyer. This sucks." The experience was they were like, "These are all the things that I have to do to get to where this path is supposed to put me and it doesn't look fun at all." This person described that they simply stopped caring about what they were supposed to be doing and they started paying attention to what they actually wanted. They were like, "Actually, there's all things that I want to be doing that I could do if I was enabled with this law degree."They started just making it theirs. They took all the classes they wanted, that nobody else was taking and ended up on some trends that they were ahead of their game on or ahead of the trend on as a result of following the way they wanted to be a lawyer and they ended up really loving their career. Joe: That's exactly right. If you're doing your shoulds and you're basically following rigidity, you're following a tightness and you're going to have that kind of tight life. You're going to have a very rigid life. If you're following your wants, your life becomes much more expansive.Brett: I liked what you had been saying about craving as well. It sounds like craving is distinct from wants. Craving is a want that you don't want. It feels like a want, but you really don't want it.Joe: [laughs] Yes, there's a thing about the want. If you just take the want viscerally and you don't try to get there, you don't try to get to the end, if you just take the want viscerally, you can feel it. Let's do this for a second. If you close your eyes and you feel a really deep want inside of you, you have a deep one, not a superficial one, but a very deep one, maybe a want for a deeper form of intimacy or a want for a more expansive consciousness, or a want for more love in your life. You feel that want and you take it in and you don't worry about whether you can get it or not. You don't even think about how to get it. You just feel what it is to want.Wanting is just a feeling like anger or sadness. Just allow that feeling in your system without trying to get to the goal. That experience is really pleasant. It's really quite lovely. To me, the way it works in my system is, it is one of the closest feelings to love, to allow a desire deeply inside of you. I think it's why so many of the the Sufi poets, they talk about desire in this way that they just love desire. This longing-- because that longing is so close to love. It's so close to that expansive acceptance of everything. That's what wanting is. “Now I got to get it. How do I get it? Why can't I get it?” That's craving and that's painful as shit.Brett: This reminds me of a lot of different spiritual traditions that tell us, that craving is a hindrance to freedom. For example, Buddhism's principle of non-attachment or Christianity's warnings about the desires of the flesh. Is that what they mean?Joe: There's those spiritual traditions and then there's the tantric spiritual traditions. People think that they're at odds, but they're really not at odds at all. What's happening there is that people have been beaten out of their wants and so they start turning cravings into an excuse not to want to not allow themselves to want anymore. If you're really deeply closely looking into your own personal experience, the craving is the thing that they're talking about and the wanting, the desire that the Sufis are talking about, the tantric people are talking about, is, there are two different things that are happening inside of your system.Brett: It's interesting. The exercise that we just did about the wanting-- for myself, I was thinking about having a healthy body and being fit and having strength. In feeling the wanting, I was imagining moving my body and having range of motion, flexibility and strength. The moment I started trying to figure out how I was going to get there, then all of a sudden it turned into "Oh, but I'd have to work out." Suddenly, the working out feels like a chore. The actual wanting of being healthy, the way that I was imagining that was actually working out, was the equivalent of moving and using my body.Joe: Exactly. If you just stick with that as a daily practice, how do I want to be in my body right now? Thirty minutes of how do I want to be in my body right now would get you exactly where you want to be in your body. How much more appealing is that? I have to work out today or, “How do I want to be in my body for 30 minutes?” It seems like it's almost no different and it's like worlds and worlds apart.Brett: Let's get this into the context of business and achievement. A tremendous amount of successful executives are deeply attached to winning and succeeding and it seems to be working well for them in many regards. How would you factor that into this?Joe: There's people who tell themselves they should do stuff. Apparently they're pretty successful at it or they're deeply attached. They have a deep craving and they're successful at getting their cravings met. For me, it's pretty simple. There is the intention which is critical. I'm not suggesting to drop all intention in life. We have our intention, we have that want, we have the impulse and that's a really, really important thing. It gives us a north star. It gives us a heading that we move down. To hold that intention is absolutely completely important to getting stuff done in the world of accomplishing stuff in the world. Being attached to succeeding is absolutely a fine way to succeed. It's not the most efficient way to succeed. It is not the most enjoyable way to succeed, but it is absolutely a fine way to succeed. You can really, really get attached to something. You can work at it and you can get there. In fact, it's really important to have some of that if you're going to get anywhere in life and that's the intention. You can have that intention without that craving, without that deep attachment. If you don't have it, you're lucky to get anywhere. That intention is really quite important. If you're going to put attachment on top of that intention, on top of that want, then you are dragging. Then you are like throwing an anchor out and sailing across the ocean with your anchor out. It is not going to be the most effective. The real thing is that intention, like, "What is the context of it? What's the way that you make it most enjoyable? Let me give you an example. If I look at every single CEO that I know who has been very, very successful, their intention wasn't to make money. They weren't attached to making money. What they were attached to was being the best or beating their competition, or reducing carbon in the world, or being the best at customer service. They had some intention, that was past this intention of just succeeding. Their attachment was beyond succeeding. Because if you're just attached to the succeeding part, it's a lot more difficult. If succeeding is something that you have to do to get to the part that you're attached to, then it's easier. The attachment isn't the most efficient way to get to where you want to go, to have that strong attachment. It's definitely not the most enjoyable way to get to where you want to go, but the intention, absolutely critical. Does that make sense?Brett: Yes, totally. It seems like having the intention versus having the attachment to success, the intention makes it easier to pivot. If your intention is to build a company or build a product that reduces carbon in the world, there are many ways to do that. You could start out with one idea of doing it and discover that there's different ways of doing it. One of them just isn't working in the market. It seems like it would be easier to get out of the local optimum or maybe you just have to let go of what you are doing and start something new, which is just really common in any any business endeavor, this idea of pivoting and flowing with reality. If you're really attached to the particular success, then you might be more resistant to make changes, that seem in the short-term to lead away from your goal of success.Joe: That's right. You have your intention out there. That's where you know which way you're going. We'll call that like the goal or the want. That intention is what's moving you in the direction. Then you can have different attitudes towards that goal, towards that want. The attitude could become a should, the attitude could be, "I'm scared of getting to the goal. I'm angry that I don't haven't gotten to the goal. I have absolute faith that I will be there." All of those ways are different attitudes towards having that goal. You're not going to get there without the goal. The most efficient attitude to get to the goal is to be in the want of it, not the should of it. It is to be in the enjoyment of it, not the rigidity of it. That's the more efficient way to get there and to be beyond the goal itself. It's that the goal of succeeding is really just a necessary step to get to your deeper goal.Brett: Give me some more examples of holding an intention without the should.Joe: You're running a company and you have a revenue goal of $100 million. You can hold that as, "I should get to $100 million". You can hold that goal as, "I want to get to $100 million." You can hold that goal as, "I will get to $100 million." You can hold that goal as, "I can't wait until I get to $100 million." The way you hold that goal is going to affect how much energy you have. It's going to affect how rigid you are in it. It's going to affect your ability to be flexible. Then the second level of it is choosing that goal as far as whether you're going to make that the easy goal or the long-term goal. Are you saying, "I want to get a $100 million, just to get a $100 million?" Are you saying, "I want to get a $100 million, so that I can build a spaceship to get to Mars"? Are you saying, "I want to get a $100 million, so I can beat the competition"? All of those things are important. It's not the intention or the goal. It is how you approach the goal, how you attach to the goal, the relationship you have with the goal. That's the important piece for efficiency and enjoyment.Brett: Feeling like you should be doing this prescriptive path towards the goal is controlling yourself with threat, essentially.Joe: Correct, that's right. It could work short-term, but it's definitely not going to work long-term.Brett: What makes it that we don't see the inefficiency of our shoulds when we're in them? If it is the case that everything that we don't do in life that we want to do and everything that we do do that we want to stop doing is all locked in place by these shoulds, what makes it so opaque to us?Joe: It's a shame situation. The way that you can look at it is even if you take it up a level for a second, what's the important thing about having the intention? What's the important thing about having the goal? It tells you what questions to ask. If I say to you, "You need to start a company and that company needs to sell widgets to 10 people," then you're going to ask questions to get to that goal. But if I say, "You need to sell widgets to a hundred million people, you're going to ask different questions." You're going to say, "Maybe I have to think about venture capital. Maybe I have to think about private equity. Maybe I have to think about distribution at that scale," that you're not going to have to think about it if you're selling 10 widgets.The goal is important, because it very, very much helps us determine what questions to ask. That's why goals are so important, but what most people do is they put some shame into those goals, tell them they should reach the goals, not that they want to, not that they can, but that they should reach the goals and then all of a sudden those goals become a burden. They become like, "Oh, if I don't do that, I'm bad." That's what makes it hard for us to see the shoulds is, that it makes us think that we're bad. The should makes us think that we're bad and if we think that we're bad, it's very hard to see what actually motivates us. It's the same thing like in wars. If two countries are warring with each other and that whole war has to depend on people thinking the other side is bad. If people look up and say, "You know what, they're just people. We're just people. We're just both trying to get along," the war's going to stop. To have that internal war of should means that you have to think you're bad and that's what makes it so hard to see through the should, to see through the war. What's really strange about it is, that you can see it from a manager 10 miles away. You're sitting there and you see a manager like "You should, you should, you should." You're like, "Oh my God, that's not going to work." That's horribly ineffective. There's been hundreds of management books saying, "Don't do that because it doesn't fricking work," and psychological studies, but we'll do it to ourselves all fricking day long. We will recognize it outside, but we won't recognize it inside.Brett: It's as if the moment we say we should be doing something, the structure of that should is to flatten all of our wants to go do that one thing, because we've prioritized it. If we are routinely doing that thing where we're suppressing our wants to do the thing we should do, then we can't hear or feel our wants anymore.Joe: That's right. The wants, for many of us, are very scary. It's a very scary thing to have a want, because we were taught at a young age not to have wants. We don't have that want because mom won't be happy. You don't have that want because you won't be codependent with that. You don't have that want because blah, blah, blah. A lot of people are told to disassociate from their wants. They're not taught that their wants are amazingly beautiful things, that can guide them in their entire life.Brett: Let's talk more about that. What makes wanting so vilified in our society?Joe: My experience is, that there's a pain that we feel from being rejected in our wants. It's like a deep level of rejection. We're all kind of school kids that got deeply rejected when we asked someone out on a date and so we're hesitant to do it again. Because our wants are this deeply intimate thing, this very vulnerable thing. They are at the core of us. If they've been rejected, we don't want to feel that rejection again. I think that's the internal process. Externally, if you have a whole bunch of people who are codependent or a whole bunch of people, who were told that they were selfish as kids, which really, if you're told that you were selfish as a kid, that really just means that you weren't doing what your mom and dad wanted you to do. If you were told that, then having somebody own their wants is very uncomfortable for you. There's this external world that is uncomfortable with people owning their wants. There's also this external world of people who just can't wait for that person to be owning their wants some more. It's like rock and roll. Back in the day, rock and roll was there. There's these people who shut up and they're like, "I'm going to get whatever I want. I want to do this and do that." There was this group of people were like, "Yes." There was a group of people like, "Devil." That's how it works when you're really owning your wants, especially the earlier wants. The later wants start to refine and start to become more and more beautiful. Then it's a little bit less likely to happen. We all start with the early wants and to own them gets a certain level of rejection, because other people would have to feel their own wants. The thing about wants in general is that it's our human nature to want. You can play this game with friends and after every sentence, just say what it is that you wanted to get out of that sentence. You will find a want in every single sentence that you speak. Right now, I want to have you guys understand what I'm saying. Right now, I want you to taste the deep pleasure of wanting. There's always this conscious want behind almost every sentence we have, it's such a part of our human nature. We cannot get away from it. All we can do is own it or we can sublimate it. Should is just a way of sublimating it, which is why it doesn't work as effectively.Brett: I'm going to say something right now because I want to participate in this podcast and feel relevant.Joe: [laughs] I want to respond so that you know that I love you and I care for you.Brett: I want to end the pregnant pause. [both laugh] A lot of what you were saying about the societal aspect is that it's uncomfortable for people to feel their wants. Part of what it is, is people have a problem seeing other people want what they want, because that makes them feel the pain of their own wants. The pain of our own wants seems to be linked to something we've discussed on some other episodes, the consequences of wanting, the potential consequence. If I want something, I might not get it, I might have to feel disappointment. I might be judged. I might break this cozy structure of this job that I'm in or this relationship that I'm in, because my wants feel incongruent with that.Joe: The interesting thing about that in general is, that not getting our wants met is not actually as scary as we want or pop psychology would say that it is, because we all have a dozen wants that we haven't had met. It doesn't devastate us all the time. How many people listening to this podcast want to have $10 million more in the bank? it hasn't happened. Didn't devastate any of us. I think it's the exposure, the vulnerability of showing your want and having it rejected. That's the deeper scare.Brett: Admitting that you want $10 million in the bank and people judging you for that, greedy.Joe: Exactly. The amazing thing is when you totally own a want, oftentimes the want goes away almost immediately. I really want $10 million in the bank. If you fully feel that all the way and you're just like, "Oh, yes, $10 million," just feel that want. Oftentimes, it just starts shifting. It's just like, "Oh, what I want is security." Then it's like, "Oh, what I really want is to feel empowered in every situation." If you don't allow yourself to have the want, it can't move through you. It's just like, if you don't allow yourself to get angry, it can't move through you. If you don't allow yourself to get sad, it can't move through you. It's just another emotion that needs to move through you and is so pleasant when it does.Brett: It sounds like on one level, you're saying that it is an impulse and on another level, you're saying it's an emotion. Can you get into that distinction a little bit more?Joe: That's a great question. Let me feel inside for a moment and really see what the distinction is there. It seems like there's this impulse that moves. The way it's working in my system is, there's this impulse to move, to say these words, to be in front of my computer right now, to answer your question. There's this natural impulse. If that impulse meets any friction, then this emotional experience of wanting starts to occur. As this emotional experience of wanting starts to occur, that becomes the feeling. That's the feeling that's there.If I fully feel the feeling, the friction starts to fade. There's the impulse side of the wanting and then there's also the emotional side of the wanting. It's what distinguishes, “I'm just going to walk to the bathroom right now” and there's no experience of wanting in that process, because there's no friction met. As soon as that impulse meets any level of friction, then there's this experience of wanting. If you fully feel that experience, it turns deeply into a loving expansive experience and then that friction starts to go away.Brett: I want to hear one more story from you, a personal story relevant to how you arrived at all of this.Joe: I'd be happy to share a story, Brett. It's a story of shoulds and wants. When I was earlier in my venture capital career, I had this idea that I really should be making money. It was foreign to me because it wasn't something that was really ever important to me before. It was a combination of a feeling of indebtedness to the investors and also doing a good job and being valuable, but the shoulds started appearing in my life at that point. Then I was sitting in a hammock and I read this news at some point. I remember the time specifically. I read this news, that this company that was formed with almost no money sold for multi billions of dollars and it felt like just an absolute kick in my stomach, just like a whack in my stomach. I stopped and I went, "Oh, where did I feel that for the first time?" I traced it back, not intellectually, but like my entire body traced back that feeling to the first time I felt it. The first time I felt it was trying to please my father as a kid and it was like, "Oh," and it was not pleasable at that time. To please him, at least from my point of view, wasn't possible. I saw that this whole money making activity had nothing to do with actually making money and the should behind it had nothing to do with it. It was this very early should that I had of I should be pleasing my father. That was a very ingrained should. It was at that moment that I was like, "Okay, hold on a second. This doesn't have anything to do with money and it's a should. What do I want? What I really want to do here?" What I realized is, I just wanted to create great cultures for people. I want it to be a part of creating great cultures for people to work in. That changed everything. It changed my approach. It changed my ability to be effective. It just changed everything as soon as I just moved from the should that was driven by an early feeling to a want, which was very present and it was just very immediate. All of a sudden, everything started to open up and flourish in my life in a new way.Brett: Wow, thank you. How do you want to end this?Joe: I want to express a deep gratitude for everybody who's listening, who's dedicated to understanding themselves, who honors me by choosing to be here as part of this experience. My deepest want is a very deep bow to everybody who's listening and to say that I wouldn't be here without people who were bowing to me. I am grateful to be bowing to you. My deep hope is, that you will bow to the people who appear before you.Brett: Joe, thank you for taking the time to help all of us build our culture internally and in our companies.Joe: Thanks for doing the work, man. Thanks for listening to The Art of Accomplishment podcast. If you enjoyed what you heard today, please subscribe. We would love your feedback, so feel free to send us questions and comments. To reach us, join our newsletter, learn more about VIEW, or to take a course, visit: artofaccomplishment.com

PTSF49 - MDMA For Alcoholism, The Placebo Effect, and Ceremonial Magicians

Psychedelics Today

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 5, 2021 87:41

In today’s Solidarity Fridays episode, Kyle, Joe, and Michelle once again meet through the airwaves to discuss recent news articles and see where that takes them. They first talk about a North Wales police boss who wants to give prisoners controlled amounts of cannabis as a way to combat violence and drug addiction and how that questions the notion of prisoners being expected to suffer. Then, they head to "Missurah," where a bill was just introduced to remove their established provision against Schedule I substances, expanding eligibility and getting them closer to how other states use 2018's federal Right to Try Act to help people with terminal and life-threatening illnesses. They then talk about a study that showed significant reduction in alcohol consumption after MDMA use and why the sense of connection that MDMA fosters could be the reason, a self-blinding microdosing study that proved the power of the placebo (and expectation) effect and what that might mean for regular microdosers, and a listener email highlighting the importance of establishing the idea that rituals and ceremonies don’t have to have a Shaman, healer, or some other person in an all-knowing, leadership role. Other topics covered: how to make therapy cheaper, whether or not a lot of letters after someone's name matters, learning survival skills, Paul Stamets, NASA, and astromycology, Zapatistas, Star Trek: Discovery, and Pauly Shore (but only a little- hopefully more next week). Notable Quotes “I feel like they’re getting a little out of hand sometimes with how we sell these treatments. In press releases or on websites for retreat centers, it’s like: 'Cure everything that’s ever been wrong with you in one week!' and 'Addiction no more!' -all this kind of stuff. ...It’s not as sexy to sell a mushroom retreat as like: 'Start this new relationship with mushrooms and work on it every day for the rest of your life!” That’s not going to sell.” -Michelle “How essential is it that the therapist is even in the room? Can’t you just be somewhere really safe with a volunteer sitter or somebody that doesn’t have a huge student debt to pay off? Is the conversation being steered in a particular direction because of incentives like graduate degrees, licensure, etc? ...If I can consume $30 of street MDMA and not have to pay 12 grand, and I can just go to my medicare-covered therapist a few times before and after, that’s a way cheaper proposition.” -Joe “There’s a lot of great healers in the world that would be really amazing at doing a lot of this stuff, but could they afford their degree? The answer is probably no, and so they don’t get to even be at the table to make any of these decisions.” -Kyle “We can say microdosing is all a placebo effect, but I think there’s something more interesting here on the power of the expectation effect, and how we’re almost manifesting our own mood change.” -Michelle “You don’t need a Shaman there, I think, for a spiritual experience. ...You don’t need someone in a seat of power. I also feel like Shamans and healers- they’re fascinating and they’re a deep part of human history, but so is the desire for power. ...You don’t have to get stuck in that ‘I’m nobody, the Shaman has all the power, and I need you for learning' [narrative].” -Michelle Links Bbc.com: Police boss wants cannabis trial for prisoners Marijuanamoment.net: Missouri Bill Would Add MDMA, Psilocybin Mushrooms And LSD To Right-To-Try Law Independent.co.uk: Taking MDMA could help to treat alcoholism, study suggests Dr. Ben Sessa’s appearance on Psychedelics Today Elifesciences.org: Self-blinding citizen science to explore psychedelic microdosing Drweil.com: Is The Placebo Effect Real? Nature.com: Positive expectations predict improved mental-health outcomes linked to psychedelic microdosing Paulstamets.com: Astromycology funded by NASA, Science Fiction becomes Science Fact Nasa.gov: Making Soil for Space Habitats by Seeding Asteroids with Fungi Damer.com (Dr. Bruce Damer) Mehl-madrona.com (author Lewis Mehl-Madrona) Psychedelicstoday.com: Online Psychedelic Community Options to Ride Out the Rest of Covid-19 Free Psychedelics Today Event: On Dreams, the Feminine and the Practice of Psychotherapy: An Interview with Maria Papaspyrou (with Kyle and Johanna Hilla) Support the show! Patreon Leave us a review on Facebook or iTunes Share us with your friends Join our Facebook group - Psychedelics Today group – Find the others and create community. Navigating Psychedelics

covid-19 practice nature positive police nasa science fiction magicians feminine shaman alcoholism mdma star trek discovery pauly shore shamans north wales ceremonial placebo effect paul stamets rideout zapatistas psychedelics today michelle you joe there michelle how try act navigating psychedelics

Enjoy over Manage — AoA Series #4

Play Episode Listen Later Feb 13, 2021 46:16

The problem with getting good at managing your life is that you end up with a life that has to be managed. What would happen if you found out that focusing on enjoying your life could make you more productive and happier than managing your life? We know most of the greats enjoyed what they did. What if enjoyment is an essential part of what makes us great?"Imagine that you are on a boat and you are going down a river. Management is when you are fighting against the river, but when you are in that effortless flow of the river, there's an enjoyment to it. What you have to do is, you have to be listening to that river deeply. You have to be listening to that impulse."We're told all of our lives that if we want results, we have to manage ourselves and the world around us in order to get what we want. What if that isn't true? What if intention and determination are critical, but managing life gets in the way? What if the way to get the life we want is to focus on enjoying our life, not only by doing what we enjoy, but also by learning to enjoy whatever is happening? This is what Joe and I will be getting into today.Brett: Joe, what makes this an important topic for you?Joe: There's a personal story behind it. When I was really young in my career, I did international stock lending for a while. I was still sorting through so much of my personal issues at the time. I decided in my head what I really wanted was to have a creative career. That was something that I decided, which was far out there that I had to attain, instead of realizing that it was really available, if I had the right perspective. I quit this great job as far as money goes and as far as career path goes. I went for seven years trying to have a creative career. There was this place where I had basically reached it. I was working on this TV show and I had written something. I was being brought in to train, to direct the show. I did this two-week stint on the show and I realized it was the same thing that international stock lending was, meaning that everything that I had run away from in international stock lending, I was running to in this creative career. One person had all the power. Everybody was working long, hard hours. They were unhappy. I remember the actor of the TV show saying to me, "Every time I come into work, it's like having a piece of my soul ripped out." Everybody wanted to be doing something else and not the thing that they were doing. They had some dream of the next level of their career. Most people weren't leaving because of the money. I said, wow, that's exactly the thing I was running away from and running to. I had spent all these years of my life trying to manage this outcome. I had finally achieved it, but I didn't have any idea that it wasn't the thing that I wanted. At that moment, the revelation came on me and I said, "Wow, you know what I'm going to do instead, what I'm going to do is I'm just going to say yes to whatever shows up. If I enjoy it, I'll keep on saying yes. If I don't enjoy it, I'll say no."Then all of a sudden, there was more and more stuff to say yes to and so I got to keep on picking the things that were more enjoyable. As that happened, everything took off; my money, my happiness, my career, everything in ways that I couldn't even have expected. It was like I had surrendered and I allowed that surrender into my own enjoyment to lead my life. All of a sudden, I was surrounded by a life that I enjoyed.I neither enjoyed stock lending, nor did I enjoy trying to become an artist nor did I enjoy being the artist, but I ended up enjoying my life, not by managing it, but by focusing on the enjoyment. That's why it's important to me. I think why it's important to talk about in general is, because it's the biggest misconception that a lot of people have is they think that if they're going to manage their life, they're going to end up with a life that makes them happy. In actuality, if you learn to manage your life, you end up with a life that you need to manage and that is not happiness.Brett: What does it mean to manage your life in the way that you're describing?Joe: One way to think about it is, intellectually, you're trying to assure an outcome. When I was directing films, one of the things that I really realized in that process was that, if I had a very specific outcome in mind of how the actors were going to do their thing, it was horrible. The result was horrible. Everything was horrible. The process was horrible. If instead, I gave the actor's direction and then I just waited until it felt right and I just allowed that impulse to carry us and go, "That's it. That's going to work," without the idea specifically of how it was going to be, the results were far better.That's one way to think about the difference between management and non-management is that you're not holding really specific future outcomes. You're holding the intention of the scene is going to be great and it's going to be emotional. You're holding the intention. The actors are holding the intention of whatever it is for them, getting the person to say they love them and getting out of the room, whatever their intentions are. Everybody's holding their intentions, but the outcome is something that you are recognizing when it's right. It's not something that you're being specific and controlling about.There's this implicit feeling of trying that happens when you are doing management and trying is very different than doing. Doing is just the action. It's like in mental waves, you think about doing as alpha. There's this flow state that happens and it's just everything's happening and there's not a lot of tension in it. Managing life is when you feel like you have to bring tension into the process to get it your way.Another great example of this, I think, that's really palpable is I see this with clients all the time is they're thinking about a big conversation they have to have. Maybe it's with their husband, maybe it's with their boss, maybe it's with a good friend. They're trying to figure out how they're going to say it in such a way that they're going to get the outcome that they want, instead of thinking about, what's the authentic way for them to say, what's their deepest truth that they're trying to share and let the chips fall where they may. If they're in the first, then they're in management and if they're in the second, then they are not in management.Brett: I think that film example is actually a great one, because in filmmaking, in production, you often have an art department that's trying to make exactly the igloo that's in the treatment for the director, when maybe they could make any number of igloos that fit the theme and that would work great in the scene. Many other parts of the scene are likely to drift through the course of production from the treatment. There are ways to flow with that and there are ways to try to manage every single detail, which you just ended up having the entire crew fighting reality for a while.Joe: It's something that I've realized. When I'm running businesses and I want something a specific way where it's creative or someone's doing something creative, like copy editing or some visual aspect or building slides, I've realized that if I just give them three adjectives, just I want it to be reliable, grounded and empowering, then the results are far better than if I start thinking I know how to design something. I'm like, well, it should be a little more blue and turn this a little bit this way. That broad stroke thing. We know that people in general, in the management of people, respond a lot better and are a lot more motivated, if they feel like they have autonomy. That doesn't mean that they don't want direction. It means they don't want management in the way that I'm talking about management.Brett: Right. I see that a lot in design as well. Micromanagement of design is a great way to get terrible work from a good artist.Joe: Exactly. That's everything. There's a way of looking at every person's role as an artistry. You're going to get bad work out of everybody's artistry in that. The other way to look at it is to imagine that you're on a boat and you are going down a river. Management is when you're fighting against the river. When you are in the flow of the river, even if your paddle's in the water every once in a while and you're doing that stuff, but when you're in that effortless flow of the river, there's an enjoyment to it and there's a non-management. When you're fighting against the river, then you're in the management.For that to happen, you have to not be managing a river, which obviously never really works. What you have to do is, you have to be listening to that river deeply. You have to be listening to that impulse. When people are in management mode, they usually are not listening to their internal impulse, or the impulse of the people around them.Brett: It sounds like a distinction to be made here is, management is to try to fight reality to conform to your results and enjoyment in this concept is more combining your intention with the randomness of reality and seeing what happens.Joe: Yes, that's right. I work with a lot of executives and this is one of the hardest things for the executives to really catch on to because they have all made a living in being able to have this determination and drive to get the results. Many of them have used management to get there. That determination and drive, that utter unacceptance of a result that's different than the one that you want, is really critical, but you need to be very general about the result that you want. It can be general like I want a company that's super successful. I want a product that sells better than all the competition. That's great.When you start managing that process and want it to be this specific way. You want it to have this kind of sales technique. You want to have, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, then that's when it goes south. You have to keep all that determination. You have to keep all that fortitude. You have to keep all that utter unacceptance of a reality that you don't envision and there is also reading the river and letting the river flow and paying attention to that river and following it to get there.Brett: A lot of this seems to happen by buying in the moment like, "Oh, no, this has to happen because if this doesn't happen this particular way, then the entire plan is ruined." Without this 30,000-foot view that we're discussing right now, how would you know in the moment, if you are managing rather than following your intention? What are some ways to mindfully recognize this in the process?Joe: One of the things that I see managers do, since we're on management, specifically, one of the things that I see managers do is they don't ask this question. They don't say, "What speaks against that?" Let's say I come into a room and I say I want to sell in question-based selling and then we're talking to the sales team. I'm like, "Let's do question-based selling." I might try to convince everybody and push everybody into it, motivate everybody and give a good speech. Everybody's like, "Yes, let's do question-based selling."What is usually far more effective and that tells you that you're not in the management of that experience is to say, "Let me give a good case for question-based selling. Here it is. Now, tell me what speaks against it?" People will tell you, "Here are the things that we don't think will work about it." That tells you the things that you have to address. Then you address them and then you're in the flow of the situation. Then you're like, "Okay." Most likely, you're going to get a much better solution because the things that they want you to address are important to address. If you can't address them, then you don't have real buy-in. Without real buy-in, they're not going to do as good of work. Without real buy-in, it probably means that there's a better solution out there. That's one of the ways to know is, if you're trying to push people into a result instead of being eager to find out what speaks against it. When you're listening to what speaks against it, your results are going to be far better. That's one way to know it.Brett: There's a delicious irony there, the idea of trying to sell a sales team on a sales process about question-based selling without asking any questions.Joe: I hadn't thought of that in my example. Yes, exactly. That would be incredibly ironic. Yes, exactly. It's why question-based selling works is, because you're not managing the customer. You're actually empathizing with, following the customer. You're following the river instead of trying to manage the river. That's one way to know it.Other ways are, when you're more listening to the outcome than you are to the impulse. Right now if you listen for the impulse, as to what to say next, that's a very particular somatic experience. You can still have determination in this experience. You can still be feeling like, "Oh, we're going to get to a resolution and I can be listening," and waiting for the impulse to speak. That's all a very possible situation. But when I want your next sentence to be something or I want my sentence to do something to you, to get to a particular place, then I'm in management.Brett: That adds another filter in the process of what you're going to say when you have to think about how you think it's going to be received.Joe: Exactly.Brett: Which then builds in all of your projections into the conversation.Joe: Yes, totally. It also builds a tremendous amount of inefficiency. When you're managing stuff, what you are always doing is not looking at the root cause. As an example, which is a more enjoyable car to own? Is it an MG or is it a Lexus? Most people who don't like fixing cars would say a Lexus is a far more enjoyable car to own than an MG, because you know with an MG, every 500 miles, you have the thing up on blocks and you have to do something.When you are in management, you're just constantly trying to figure out how to fix the MG with the least amount of money and as quickly as possible. When you're in enjoyment, you're looking at the core issue. If you are looking at the core issue, everything becomes far more efficient. You're not trying to patch the boat as it's sinking. Instead, you're thinking, "What's the right boat to build?"Brett: Getting out of context to the bigger question.Joe: Exactly.Brett: We have learned to manage things for a reason, many would propose. Don't you have to manage some level of things for anything to get done? If so, where is that line?Joe: It's not where you think it is, that's for sure. What I mean to say is, if you ask the people at Hyatt, "Hey, man, do you have to manage your properties?" They'd say, absolutely. If you ask the people at Airbnb, "Do you have to manage your properties?" They'd say no. If you ask SK Telecom and all those telecom companies that tried apps before Apple, "Did you have to manage your apps, the building of the apps?" They'd say, "Yes, absolutely. We need to manage it," but Apple said, "No, we don't. As long as they hit a minimum requirement, they can be on the App Store." If you think about all your great employees, how much management do they actually require? It's the people that you're managing that are not usually your great employees.Brett: Maybe because you're managing them so hard.Joe: Indeed. Do you have to manage and what's the boundary? The answer is that the better your system is in place, the better you have the mechanism working, the less management is necessary. Every place that you are managing is basically a way to look at an inefficiency that you have. If you build a really good machine, say like an iPhone, you don't have to manage the iPhone. You and I have never said the word, "Well, I really had to manage my iPhone yesterday." It's because it works.Brett: We might have to manage our iPhone use and that arises from inefficiencies in our attention.Joe: Exactly. That's right. Even that, that's the self-management part, which is you can say, "I need to manage my cell phone use," or you can turn off all your notifications. You can turn your phone into black and white and don't allow for color usage on your phone. Or you can turn on the sleep mode. There's all things that you can do, so that you don't actually even have to manage your cell phone usage, so that it's all done systematically.Brett: Or I can find out what it is in my emotions that makes me want to go to Instagram and start scrolling.Joe: Yes, exactly. All different levels of it. Even managing your own state is ineffective. In fact, that's the thing about meditation generally, is that most people call sitting still and trying to manage your state of mind meditation. It's not meditation. It's torture. Enjoyment of sitting there is meditation. Yes, management is going to happen. This isn't something that you get upset about. Is it something that you're going to never have to do in your whole life? No, but every time you're managing something, you can absolutely see it as a chance to become more efficient and the way that you find that efficiency is through enjoyment.Brett: That's great.Joe: The other thing that happens here, oftentimes when people are talking about they're like, "Yes, but I got to manage my company. I got to tell people what to do." Then you look at other companies. There's this company called Valve. There's this Valve Handbook, which is just amazing. The way they manage what they do, is they figured out how to choose really good people. They have a whole thing about that and then when you get to Valve, you have a desk that's on wheels. Where you push your desk is what projects they do. There's not even somebody saying, "Okay, these are the projects we're going to do. Here's our big initiatives." They literally just have people roll their desks to what they want to do and those are the initiatives that get done in the company.If you look at our entire economy. We have four tools to manage our economy and we don't do it very well. There's just interest rates and how constraining the laws are for businesses, et cetera. Our whole economy doesn't have a manager and yet, we're the biggest economy in the world. So far, we have been the most resilient economy in the world. Is there really a need for management? Is there really a need for that level of centralization? There may be in certain circumstances but guaranteed there is a more efficient system out there and when somebody finds it, they will be the winner of that business and their life will be more enjoyable.Brett: It sounds like, if somebody wants to start experimenting with loosening management and finding more enjoyment, there seems to be a requirement for a certain amount of slack in the system. If you're running a company that's just barely making payroll month after month after month and you imagine that if you just stopped managing people in the way that you're currently managing them and you even have one or two hiccups then everything is all over. Or imagine in a life, where somebody's like, "Well, I'm working three jobs right now to make ends meet. If I just started focusing on enjoyments, then if I left one of those jobs, then I'm not going to feed my family." How would you respond to there being a feeling for a need for slack or people's fear that they don't have enough slack to try an experiment in this way?Joe: I would say that they're looking at enjoyment in a backwards way, meaning there's one way to look at enjoyment, which is, "Here are the things that my head says that I will enjoy when I do it, like me having a creative career." Your head doesn't really know what you're going to enjoy. You can try to organize a life where everything you do is enjoyable, meaning that you've chosen things to do that you enjoy, that you think you enjoy, or you can learn to enjoy the things that you're doing.I'll give you an example of this. When I was 27 years old or something like that, I did this experiment where I said, "I'm not going to do anything I don't enjoy for a month and see how that goes." After the first three or four days, it was everything that I enjoyed. I took a nap when I wanted to take a nap, I did everything I wanted, then the trash started smelling. I was like, "Well, I'm not enjoying living with no trash and I don't enjoy taking out the trash. What the hell am I going to do?" I learned, "Wow, how do I take out the trash and enjoy myself? How do I write emails and enjoy myself? How do I pay bills and enjoy myself." I don't enjoy not having bills unpaid or having a bad credit rating. That's not enjoyable for me.The only way to really get to a life that you enjoy is to not avoid the intensity. It's not to run away from difficult things. It's finding the pleasure in whatever you're doing. It has to be a major part of the equation. If you have three jobs and you need the three jobs to get by, then learn to enjoy the jobs that you have. Learn how to do them with more enjoyment and watch, when you do your job with more enjoyment, your job changes pretty darn quickly. People want to be around people who are enjoying themselves. People want to work with people who are enjoying themselves and people will be attracted to you, people will give you more opportunities.It's the same thing in your business. Maybe you don't have the ability to reinvent your organization, where the management is so low that people are deciding their own payroll and people on the bottom line of a company like the manufacturing line of a company are deciding what $3 million pieces of equipment to buy. Those are companies that are run like that and maybe you can't get there tomorrow. Maybe it's not even smart for your company to get there, but the question that you can always ask is, "What's making this so unenjoyable and how do I enjoy this process?" That is going to build efficiency in your company.The thing is that there's somebody in mind right now when they're listening to me and they're saying, "This isn't necessary. I can be successful without enjoying myself." That is so true. You can be successful financially. You can accumulate a lot of power. You can have a good looking mate on your side. You can have all the toys that you want and not enjoy yourself. That's absolutely 100% the case. They're not actually being correlated-- that success and enjoyment. There's a lot of people that are successful who don't enjoy themselves and there's a lot of people that are successful who do enjoy themselves. What I am saying is that you can have both. If you are having both, you're finding efficiencies.Brett: Yes. Let's define enjoyment then. A lot of people think of enjoyment as there is a sense of control. People have the freedom to do what they want to do, but a lot of what it seems like you're describing with enjoyment is that it doesn't really require freedom. For example, you could be working three jobs and be micromanaged and potentially find enjoyment in what you're doing. Can you talk a little bit more about that?Joe: Yes, absolutely I can. There are people in jail right now enjoying themselves. There are people on this earth right now, who are sitting in three by three cells who haven't lied down in two years, two months and a day who are doing it to learn how to enjoy themselves. That's part of the Lama tradition. The enjoyment is available to you right now. Right now I can say to everybody who's listening to this, "Hey, enjoy yourself just a little bit more right now. Just a little. Just allow a little more enjoyment in this moment."Brett: My entire body just relaxed a little bit.Joe: Right. Exactly. What did that take? Your conditions did not change at all. You're in the same space. You have the same bank account. You have the same girlfriend. Nothing has changed and you just enjoyed yourself a little bit more. Enjoyment doesn't cost anything. Enjoyment is just a perspective. It's just an allowing. It's just a receiving. It's visceral. It requires us to be a little more present. That's it. It requires us, maybe to be a little bit more in our body, but it's not something that is ever inaccessible to us.Brett: It sounds like this is definitely an internal thing as well. We've been talking a lot about enjoyment in our environment, in our circumstances, in our businesses, in our organizations. How does this management and enjoyment dynamic work internally in the way that we just experienced?Joe: Yes, it's a bit of a mystery exactly how it works. What I've seen is that, internally, there is a capacity to feel pleasure that is almost like a muscle. It's a nervous system thing, but it feels like it's a muscle in the fact that you can build it. You can build the capacity for this feeling of enjoyment in your life and this feeling of pleasure. There's a certain amount of overwhelm that happens when you feel too much of it. Your level of too much is going to be different than my level of too much, which is going to be different than person C's level of too much.Brett: What makes it be too much?Joe: I'll tell you what I think it is. If you put your hands together, put your hands like your thumb and your fingers all together and then intertwine your fingers. Now, intertwine your fingers in the opposite way so that your hand looks the same but your pinkies have switched positions. You'll notice that one of those ways is comfortable. The first way is comfortable and the second way is uncomfortable.Brett: Yes, interesting.Joe: Pleasure being too much is very much like that. It's just what you're used to. It's very much a level of comfort based on what you're used to and based on what your nervous system feels safe handling. If your nervous system had to be on high alert to feel safe as a child, then there's a low level of pleasure that you are going to allow yourself an enjoyment that you're going to allow yourself because you're going to feel unsafe. If you were deeply nurtured as a child, then that level of pleasure and enjoyment is going to be much higher. We can train our nervous systems to start accepting higher and higher levels of pleasure.Brett: It seems like there's an inverse relationship between enjoyment and letting our guard down. The more enjoyment we're experiencing, the more down our guard must be and there's some baseline level of guard that we must viscerally believe is required to be safe. Does that make sense?Joe: Yes, that's right. That's exactly right. What you're basically saying there is, that you have to believe that a certain level of defense is necessary, to be able to protect yourself, which also means that you don't believe that you can respond in the moment, that you have to be prepared. That is one of the main things that creates us not listening to our impulse, not watching the river, is that idea that we have to be prepared so we're not in the present moment handling the thing that's in front of us. Or that we're in the future in a way that's very hard. We're not in the future in a soft way.You can be in the future and be like, "I'm dreaming the future and have intentions in the future," but most of the time when we're in the future, we're trying to control the future. That's like the perfect example of management. We do this internally all the time. We're literally having conversations in our heads to control the future. Have you noticed that the conversations that you've had about how you want the future to go, they have never worked out specifically as you planned? You think about how you're going to have the conversation 10 different ways and it never happens that way. It always happens differently.We're thinking about our thoughts. We're trying to manage our future. It never works out and it's definitely not enjoyable. That's called spin. We're just spinning. Now, I imagine that you're in that conversation with that person and you're just listening to the impulse and focused on enjoying the conversation.Brett: Which results in a lot more listening to what they're saying as well.Joe: Exactly and it helps them feel connected with you. You feel more heard and they feel more heard. The conversation goes better. It's the same thing internally. Internally, we're trying to manage ourselves all the time. "Hey, lose weight. Hey, get more in shape. Hey, you should listen more. Hey, you should stop managing." Whatever it is that your brain is constantly telling yourself you should manage and it doesn't work very well. It's not the most efficient way by any stretch.We do this in meditation and we do this in yoga. Now, what is it like to meditate and focus on enjoyment? Not just doing something that you enjoy, but also enjoying what you're doing. Now, what is it like to do yoga and focus on enjoyment or crossfit for that matter? What's the internal thing that you do when you're managing and how effective is it compared to enjoyment?The amazing thing is, I could say to somebody, "Hey, look, whatever internal exercise you do, just focus on enjoyment. Just enjoy that exercise. That's your number one thing to do." Most people won't, because they're like, "Enjoyment is scary," subconsciously, but if they do it, what they notice is that they do it a lot more, because it's more enjoyable. If meditation isn't enjoyable, you don't keep on meditating. If working out isn't enjoyable, you don't keep on working out.The enjoyment propels the practice. Telling yourself you should do it and you really have to do it and you have to do better and stronger da-da-da, it's not very enjoyable and so you stop doing it. The other thing that's important here to say is, that the reason you think you have to manage yourself is, because you don't see that you're inherently good. You don't believe in your inherent goodness. You believe that you're like some lazy gluttonous asshole, if you were left to your own devices and that you need to be whipped into shape.If you believe that about yourself, then that's who you're going to end up being. If you believe that you are inherently good, you want what's best for you and for the people around you and that you want to have an active, enjoyable, fulfilling life, then why on earth would you need to be managed for? If you want that stuff, what would make it, that you wouldn't just naturally do it?Brett: It seems that that would also show up in the way that you manage or treat your employees or expect to be managed or treated by a boss.Joe: Yes. Any boss you've ever had who is a micromanager, I guarantee you they micromanage themselves horribly. If they're not depressed now, they will be. If they don't have major anger issues, they will have. Any boss that you have, that is constantly in fear of how you are behaving is constantly in fear about how they're behaving. It's just the nature of it. The self-development-work works so well in companies, is because you are projecting your internal relationship externally.Brett: Yes, let's dig into more about how this management enjoyment dynamic shows up in relationships.Joe: Yes. Here's the story that I think freaks everybody out and it's very apropos. I have two girls. I don't think there's any time I punish them and I don't think my wife ever punished them. We got angry from time to time. That absolutely happened. I'm sure they felt ashamed from time to time, though we did our very best not to ever shame them. The thought process then is that, well, your kids must be spoiled and that your kids must not do what they're told and your kids must not behave well.If you get into my home, what you find out is that my kids are amazing kids. It's so palpable that when people come they're like, "Wow, you have amazing children. How did you raise them?" That question gets asked all the time. Even after they see our kids, most people are dumbfounded that that's how we did it. We trusted that they wanted to be connected with us. We trusted that they wanted to be connected with themselves. When they were connected with themselves, they would show up thoughtfully and lovingly and with care. That's what they did. That's how it worked out. We never said to them, "Hey you're a bad person. Hey, you're naughty and we need to control that naughtiness." That never happened. They never believed that they were naughty. They just saw that we saw them as good and they ended up as good.Obviously, some adults, that would take years and years and years of treating them that way for them to act that way. I'm not suggesting that you go around and go into a maximum security prison and treat all of them like they're amazing people who are inherently good, because unless they believe that, there's going to be friction to get to that point. In general, that's the way that you walk around in a relationship. The way you walk around is that you find out what's motivating them, find out what's moving them, find out what they want to do and follow that flow instead of saying, "This is what I want you to do and do that."You see this happen all the time. One person convinces another person to join a project. If I'm hiring somebody for a project, I basically say, "What's your dream job?" If they're not really close to the job that I have in mind, it's not a good fit. I'd rather have somebody whose dream job it is, to do the job that I have in mind than to convince someone to do something because, eventually, I'm going to have to manage them. It's something that I learned in making investments. What I realized was that the amount of management that it took to make a deal happen was the same amount of management that I would have to consistently provide to make the deal work. Then that's really inefficient investing. I've learned that if I had to manage to get a deal done, I just would not do the deal. It was the deals that happened with a certain amount of flow and ease that then continued with that same amount of flow and ease. Obviously, there's ups and downs with everything, but generally, that flow and ease was far more likely.Brett: There's also that disempowering factor of managing. If you invest in somebody's company and then you manage them, you're really saying that you don't trust their idea, unless it's done the way you think it should be done.Joe: Yes, that's right.Brett: That brings me back to that prison example, as well. You could go to a maximum-security prison and yes, on one hand, you can't just relax all the restrictions and behave as though everybody knows their inherent goodness, but we could actually stop doing a lot of the things that we do that reinforce the, "I am bad belief." There's a lot of talk about how the system reinforces itself.Joe: Absolutely. You can go in and treat every single person in a maximum-security prison like they are good people. That absolutely will help them. There's a great video documentary called Being Human. If you look it up online, Leonard, Being Human, you will see an example of somebody who has killed a woman and her child. The grandmother of that woman and the child showed him a certain amount of love that changed his life and you can see it. It's absolutely doable and that's how it works in relationships.The other thing is when you're trying to be managing a relationship, you don't want to be in the damn relationship. There's some part of you, whether it is you are getting sold a car and the person is trying to manage you into buying the car, you don't want to be in the relationship. That salesperson isn't as successful. They know that the best car salesmen are the ones who focus on having a good relationship and that don't try to sell the car and they outperform the ones trying to sell the car, usually, four or five to one.It's the same thing we see in our love life; our husbands, our wives, our girlfriends/boyfriends, that when we are trying to manage the other person's mood, there is less love. When we are trying to manage the other person's reaction, there is less love, there's less enjoyment in the relationship. If you are enjoying the person, there's a lot less management. If you're enjoying the moment, there's a lot less management.Brett: In the prison example, you can have boundaries.Joe: You can have boundaries without having to manage anything. A boundary is following an impulse. That's a great point. Having a boundary is basically the deepest act of non management on some level. The reason it is is because what you're saying is, "Here's what I'm going to do," and then you allow the other person to do what they are going to do, which is like, "Hey, what I know is that interacting in this kind of relationship isn't working for me. If I'm going to continue to act in this relationship, then what I want is to not have a lot of yelling and I want it to be respectful and kind." Now, that person can leave and they might leave you. It's really non management. It's just saying, "This is what I'm game for, this is what I'm willing to do in this world." That's what non management is to a large degree. That's what creates an enjoyable life even if it's scary to get there.Brett: It sounds like what you've been saying would be also if a partner is going to leave you and then you're going to have a lot of uncomfortable feelings, because of that and sadness, then that is also something to be enjoyed.Joe: Absolutely.Brett: Or we're going to be trapped by it.Joe: Right, that's another way. Most of what we are trying to manage in our life is an emotional reality. We're trying to manage emotions, trying to not feel heartbreak when our lover leaves us, trying to not feel like a failure if our boss gets angry at us. The non management of those emotional states and when I say non management, I don't mean that now you're like a puddle on the floor throwing temper tantrums and throwing tennis rackets around your house.I'm not saying non management in that way. I'm saying allowing yourself to feel the emotions fully, not act out on them, but allowing the non management of emotions so that you can actually feel them fully and you're not trying to push them down and repress them and hold your muscles to not feel them or judge other people not to feel them. That is a far more productive way of changing patterns in your life, than all the management of telling yourself you should do this or do that. You even mentioned it at the beginning of the podcast. You talked about, “...or I could just look at emotionally what's happening when I scroll on Instagram and what I'm trying to avoid.”Brett: How can we cultivate the enjoyment of those feelings that we are trying to avoid by managing?Joe: Well, stop resisting them. Half of the lack of enjoyment is the management itself. Stop trying to manage them and they'll all of a sudden become a lot more enjoyable. Stop resisting them.A lot of the things about emotional states that we find out is that it is the resistance to them that's painful, not the actual emotion itself. It's the fear of them that's painful, not the actual emotion itself. All of it is a physical sensation in your body. It has different intensities, but once it's unresisted they change rapidly, the sensation of them changes rapidly. No one's ever really been killed by an emotion or maimed by an emotion internally. Maybe an angry person maimed somebody else, but if you internally are feeling your emotions, you're not going to be wounded.Brett: Through the process of managing and suppressing our emotions, we can slowly kill ourselves with stress. That's true and depression.Joe: Yes, that's exactly it. Generally, that's the thing about management, we think we need it. What it actually is, is just a constant signal that we can find a more efficient way and a more enjoyable way. Just dropping the management itself can be enjoyment. Just to say, it's just about taking your hand of control away from it slowly.Some people, after listening to this, are like, "Okay, I'm just not going to manage any of my employees ever again." Then everything goes to shit and then they'll be like, "Yes that's right. I needed to manage it and I've proven that. I do need to manage it." What I'm saying is, see what the next level of enjoyment is, see what the next level is, because you have to find the new ways of being without management.An example that's really critical is, you're sitting with a bunch of employees or people that you work with and you need a job done. Let's say you need the car cleaned. One way to do it is to say, "I need the car cleaned." That would be maybe the least amount of management. The least amount of management is to see if anybody cleans the car, which may happen. If they have the right to defined roles and everything like that, reinventing organization style, somebody might just come and clean the car because they see it needs to get done.There's, "Hey, I need the car cleaned". Then there's like, "I need to get the car cleaned in this way, this way, this way and then make sure you detail this and do this and dah, dah, dah." Then there's car cleans just like, "Hey, I need the car cleaned and I need it to look like it looks when you get off of a new car lot. I need it to be done for less than $150 and I need you to enjoy yourself doing it." Where you give people the parameters of what a good job is but you don't tell them how to do it. You just tell them how to win.You don't see a lot of people doing it that way. You don't see that interim step, the interim step of letting people discover how to do it in a way that lets them win. Most people want to know how to win. If you keep determination and you keep intention and you keep boundaries and you keep maintaining and mandating the results that you want, then how necessary is management? The management is just the fear, that you're not going to get there. The management is just the fear, that people are going to hurt you, that people aren't going to show up.Brett: What you have been saying then in this entire episode is that in order to stop managing, we need to be willing to feel and enjoy feeling these emotions that we're trying to avoid like fear. That sounds like a really interesting topic to get into on another episode.Joe: Yes, indeed. That is a great way to think about that which is, we often try to figure stuff out before we actually allow the feeling of stuff. If we really let that feeling happen and learn how to enjoy that feeling, then most of what we're trying to figure out doesn't need to be figured out anymore.Thanks for listening to The Art of Accomplishment podcast. If you enjoyed what you heard today, please subscribe. We would love your feedback, so feel free to send us questions and comments. To reach us, join our newsletter, learn more about VIEW, or to take a course, visit: artofaccomplishment.comResources:Frederic Laloux, Reinventing Organizations, https://www.reinventingorganizations.com/Yann Arthus-Bertrand, Human, http://www.human-themovie.org/

Embarking on the Journey — AoA Series #2

Play Episode Listen Later Feb 13, 2021 48:57

When we are ready to embark on the journey of self-transformation we want to make the most of our time in an effective and progressive way. For this, as with all journeys, it helps to have a compass and a clear map.A clear map tells us four things about the journey: the necessary conditions, the best approach, what to expect along the way, and impediments where we might get lost. The compass that keeps us on track—our constant reference along the path—is enjoyment."There is no way of getting it right. There is no complete. There is no finish line, no done, there is no “I'm going to get it.” There is just “What's the next experiment?” “What's the next adventure?” “What can I learn from what just happened?” There is just play."Brett: Today we're going to talk about everything you need to know about embarking on a personal transformative journey, conditions for transformation, what happens on the journey, what we can get excited about and what will get on our way. Joe, tell me what does someone need to know about embarking on a transformative journey?Joe: There's a way to look at it that we can dissect it into all the parts of it and let's do that. Before I even start there, the most important thing that someone should know about in deciding lik, "Hey, I want to do something that transforms my life," is that it's a process to be enjoyed. Not only is it a process to be enjoyed because that's nice, but it's because it's more effective.The only thing to tweak about that is that enjoying yourself is a little bit different than maybe how you're thinking of it. Most people think or a lot of people think, if someone says, "Hey, go enjoy yourself." They think, "What am I going to do?" For example, I'll go play golf or I'll go and have a conversation with a friend or I'll go get high on heroin, whatever their idea of enjoying themselves is. That's not what I'm speaking to. What I'm speaking to is how do you allow yourself more enjoyment in everything that you're doing. That's what I mean by enjoy yourself.If it means that you're in a satsang listening to a guru, how do you enjoy yourself in that? If it means that you are listening to this digital recording, even if you notice that you're criticizing yourself, how do you enjoy criticizing yourself? That's the question. The question isn't how do I do the things that I enjoy? The question is how do I enjoy the things that I'm doing. That's the golden mean of the journey, that's where you guide your footsteps by and then everything else is a technicality that revolves around that sun. It's like the gravitation, how do you enjoy yourself?As far as the details, I think you can clump them into four parts. One part is, what are the conditions that need to be set for transformation? There's an acupuncturist who once taught me this idea of conditions for healing. I was like, "What do you need to do just so that somebody can potentially heal if you're treating them."It's the conditions that need to be there for transformation to be possible. Then there's a question of approach, how do you approach it because at the end of the day, you're responsible and your approach is going to make a big difference in the alacrity, the enjoyment and the depth of transformation.Then I think you can also talk about what to expect on the journey, because when you really got to get into it there's certain things that happen over and over again and they can fool you and they can also, when you see them in a slightly different light, they can really propel you. Then I think then you can also talk about what gets in the way? What are the impediments of the journey? That's how I would break it down.Brett: Let's get started on it. What are the conditions that we would set in place for us to enjoy our transformation?Joe: The most important thing is you need to feel safe. And safe is misused often in today's world. We've got a lot of times people use safety as a way to control. Like, “I don't feel safe.” It's not actually a lack of safety, it's a way that they can control their environment, but you have to feel safe. Fear reduces your capacity to learn. Here's something that you've never seen before.You've never seen two people in a yelling match, where one person going, "You son of a pa-pa-pa-pa and you mother, ba-ba-ba-ba." The other person say, "Oh yes, you're right. You've got a point there." It doesn't happen because it's neurologically impossible. Feeling safe is really critical to being able to learn. That's important and it's really important also to understand the difference between whether you feel unsafe or whether you feel defensive.There's a great trick to doing that. Take a moment, pause this or whatever, but feel in your body what it feels like to feel unsafe. When you really felt like your life was threatened or that you were threatened and then feel what it's like when you were really defensive. Your body has two different signals for that defensiveness and safety and they get confused sometimes. To know the difference is really important.Brett: What are some examples of what that might feel like in the body? I remember early on going through your courses, a lot of the instruction were like: “How does that feel in your body?” A lot of times it would just be dissociation. I couldn't quite feel, like, "What do you mean in my body? I'm thinking. This is a thought.” Joe: [laughs] Oftentimes safety is felt more electrically in the body. It can be felt in the shoulders and in the belly often, but it's different for everybody and it's really based on, when you feel unsafe, if you go to fight, flight, or freeze. Your body's literally going to feel one of those ways. Defense is a hardening. It's usually like a more increased rigidity in some way.Brett: Muscles tightening.Joe: Tightening, yes. It doesn't always have to be that. It's very different for each person. Those are some of the signals to look for, such as how much electricity is moving through, what feels like electricity or energy is moving through your body. How rigid your body is, what part of your body lights up? These are the ways to know the difference for you between safety and resistance. Great question. Then, another thing that's the condition needs to be set, there needs to be trust. If you don't believe that you are going to transform, you are at a severe disadvantage.Trusting a teacher if you choose to have one is really important. Trusting yourself is so critical. Trust is a really important thing. The belief that it's possible to really know that that transformation is there-- there's this thing called the placebo effect. The interesting thing is, that it's always seen like it's a glitch of science. We can't really test it, because some people just think that they will get better and so they do. [chuckles] In this work, the placebo effect is a feature. It's not a glitch, it's not a bug. It's really important that you think that it's possible.I don't mean to do it in a namby-pamby kind of way. [chuckles] I'm talking about doing the research, do what you have to do to find out that it's possible. Talk to people who've been in the course or know that it's possible. The truth is we have a great success rate in our courses. We've had great studies done and we have a consistent shift that's measurable, but the main part is the belief that that's possible.The other thing to see is that some people don't change. Occasionally, you get someone who goes through who doesn't change. One of the things that you can always know about that person is they never came in with the confidence that they could change. They were resistant right from the start to the whole thing. If you're that, just don't do it. It's a waste of your time and it hurts the other people that you're on the journey with. That's really important.Another really important thing is seeing beyond your intellect and knowing that your thoughts are only part of the way the transformation happens. Do your research if you need to, to know that there are things like mirror neurons and mirror neurons don't register in the intellect of the brain. They're just some way in which we know that our body has an intelligence that if you move differently, your thoughts will be different.Research things like Sensory Processing Disorder where we know that kids who do not get to inhabit their body in a full way have a different brain function than kids who have inhabited their body in a full way, who have an understanding of where they are in space, they have appropriate perception issues. We know that the way that we move changes.Our body has an intelligence, our emotions have an intelligence, our intellect have an intelligence. If you are trying to do all of your change through the intellect, you're going to be screwed. It's going to be slow. You're going to be able to describe everything that's wrong with you, but very little is going to have changed.Brett: I've experienced that myself.[laughter]It took some time to realize that, while I could logically create a framework around everything that I was experiencing, I wasn't able to actually transform until I let the fuzzier logic of emotions and the body make movements that I didn't have to intellectually understand.Joe: Yes. For me the journey was similar. It was slightly different, I just deconstruct it. I spent almost 10 years deconstructing all my thoughts so that I could be free enough of them to trust the other ways of knowing. It's so apparent, it's just to ask somebody who's a great gymnast, how they did it and they're not going to give you an intellectual explanation. There's knowledge that happens that the intellect can't describe, muscle memories, examples like emotional memory.Brett: The endocrine system has its own memory.Joe: Exactly, hormone systems. Right. Exactly. Nervous system. All of that is very hard to describe. Another really important thing is vulnerability. It's really hard to have a transformational journey if you're like, "Yes, I got it. It's cool. I'm good. Yes. It's not that bad. Yes. There's some something that could be done there, but, it's not that big of a deal."If you're coming at it with that approach, you are not going to have that much transformation. It doesn't mean that you have to think there's something wrong with me either. It doesn't mean that you have to say, "I'm broken. Fix me. I'm broken. I have to fix myself. I need to be healed." You don't have to have that attitude either.Brett: You could create that entire model of yourself and stay in that for years too. [chuckles]Joe: Exactly, but if you can't explore the depths of your pain and your constriction and express it to other people, then you're not going to be able to approach it. You're not going to be able to do anything about it. You're not going to be able to understand it better. You know? It's like unless your attention can go to the discomfort, then your system can't do anything about the discomfort.A lot of people have learned how to just not go to the discomfort. Obviously, it builds up. Other things happen. It's a painful life. That's a really important thing. I'd say finally and I think I've stated it before which is just, if you're not willing to take full responsibility for your journey, if you start blaming the teacher, if you start blaming your wife, if you start blaming your mom and dad, you have to take full responsibility for the journey.It doesn't mean that you shame yourself, it doesn't mean that you blame yourself, but it just means you don't shame or blame anybody else. You have to just say something like, "I am exactly where I need to be. I am responsible for this." That is incredibly important in the journey, because every time you blame somebody else for where you are, including blaming yourself. Anytime you are blaming anything for where you are, you are slowing the process down tremendously.Brett: It seems like each of these is, there's a catch-22 because they're both conditions and also the effects. For example, with trust, many people might approach personal development, because starting with a position of that they don't trust themselves, they don't trust their own goodness or they don't trust teachers or they don't trust the process and that's something th at they're working with. What advice would you have for somebody who wants to embark on a personal transformation journey but is worried about being manipulated or controlled by a guru or ending up in some woo-woo backwater?Joe: I would say maybe two or three things there. The first thing is I get back to the first principle, right? It's enjoying yourself. If you are not trusting somebody, how do you enjoy that movement of non-trust? It's clear that if you feel safe, there's a deeper level of enjoyment. If you feel trust, there's a deeper enjoyment in being vulnerable than there is in being protected.Brett: Do you have any tips or exercises for anybody who's embarking on this and finding that they're having that difficulty with say, trust or vulnerability? Some way to help them just enjoy feeling what they're feeling rather than trying to change it?Joe: Yes. Let's say you are with a teacher and you're not trusting them or you know that you want to sign up for the course, but you know you're going to have trust issues; the best thing you can do is just go to the person and say, "I don't trust teachers and I want to. How can we work together so that this isn't a burden for you and this isn't a burden for me." That would be taking responsibility, being vulnerable and trusting.Even in saying that, you're trusting yourself, which is the more important thing than trusting the teacher. In saying all this to your teacher, you're giving them trust in that moment. If they react in a way that's just like, "Well, if you don't trust me, motherfucker," [laugh] then you pretty much know it's not the right teacher. Or if they go, "This is all about just letting go into my words," then you know you don't have a great teacher there and that maybe that you shouldn't be trusting them.Brett: It's a good litmus test. A teacher should be able to receive that mistrust. [chuckles]Joe: Yes, should be able to receive that mistrust, especially if you're taking ownership; and if you're not taking ownership and they point to the ownership, then also a teacher worth trusting. Yes. That's an easy way to look at it. Yes, you're right that to some degree, all of these things are the things you're working on as well as the things that you need to be successful at it, so then it's just an order of operations thing. It's make trust your first thing to work on. Don't make your mommy issues the first thing. Make trust the first thing. It's probably relates to your mom issues or your dad issues, but make trust the first thing and really focus there. Yes.Brett: Another feature of this is that it creates a positive feedback loop. The safety, trust and vulnerability and seeing beyond the intellect, maybe are the things that are initially holding you back, but then as you work on them more and more, the speed of your development increases.Joe: Yes, that's exactly right and it becomes more enjoyable, which is the speed, it becomes far less important than the enjoyment. If you enjoy your entire developmental journey deeply, who cares how fast you're going and who cares when you're going to get there, you know?Brett: Yes. You start to get to that point where you feel that restriction: "Oh, I'm interviewing Joe, I'm feeling restriction now." Then you're like, "Oh good. This is something to work on." Instead of, “No, I want to go away." [chuckles]Joe: Yes. That's a beautiful pointing. That's a great way to think about all of this stuff is, that there is a point in that path, where everything that's uncomfortable, you trust. That uncomfortable thing approaches and you say, "Oh, I can trust this thing because it's going to teach me something. I just have to be vulnerable in it and take full responsibility." Yes. Beautiful.Brett: Tell me more about how to approach this?Joe: How to approach [crosstalk]?Brett: How to first set those conditions and the spiritual path in general.Joe: Approaching the spiritual path-- what I mean by that is, what's the best way to be on the path, right? If those are the conditions that are important for you, make sure they are met before you even are packing your bag. That's the tent and the food stores. This is about, how do you walk down the path? When I say, "The approach to a path," that's what I mean. It's like, how do you walk down it? How you walk down the path is-- you know some of this stuff, because of the 18-month course you did, but I have it as to five principles of how to be on the path.One is loving accountability, which basically means that you're honest with who you are and what you've done without shame. It means that you can apologize to somebody, that you can take an honest inventory of yourself, without shame. That you can look at yourself directly and not feel like you have to be any different. That's loving accountability and it's approaching life in that same way. It's asking those around you to meet you in that place.An example of that would be to say to the teacher, "I'm having trust issues and I don't want to be having trust issues." It's kind of loving the accountability to say I have trust issues because that might be making them responsible. That full loving accountability is that I have trust issues and I don't want to have them. I want to be able to trust life, I want to be able to trust people. That's full loving accountability. Then embrace intensity is, it's not creating intensity, which I think some people mistake it far often, but it's embracing intensity.It's a business theory as well. It's like being a great CEO, one of the biggest things about it is just making sure the right amount of attention from the organization is going to the right parts of the organization. Are we being attentive to our problems? Are we being attentive to being proactive? Are we being attentive to our culture? Are we being attentive to our customer? How much attention is going where and the most--Brett: And where there's intensity, that's generally where that attention needs to go. [chuckles]Joe: Correct. That's right. Just like in the body, if there's pain, it's that pain is telling you, "Hey, this is where you pay attention." If you want to take care of yourself, pay attention to the pain. It's the same thing. I call it intensity because it's not all pain because it can be pleasure. Often what we avoid more than pain is pleasure. People have a hard time seeing that, until they see it and then they're: "Whoa." I always say it's subtle till you see it. In that moment when you actually notice: "Oh, it's more intense for me to be in deep pleasure than it is for me to be in pain," that's a moment. That's embracing intensity.The other principle is everything is an iteration. It just means that there's no way of getting it right, there's no complete, there's no finish line, there's no done, there's no I'm going to get it, there's just what's the next experiment? What's the next adventure? How do I learn? What can I learn from what just happened? There's no blame, there's no shame, there's just play.There's just moments of, "Let's do it this way, okay now let's do it this way." There's just a trust that you're going to keep on iterating and it's going to keep on getting better and you're going to learn and there's no need to think of anything that you've done as right or wrong." I can hear the brains out there already going, "But if you kill somebody that's wrong." I would agree that killing somebody is not how we want to behave.If there is a person out there, who has killed somebody and they're not going to be caught, my hope for them would be that their mindset is that of iteration. That their mindset is for example, "Okay, well that felt shitty in my body and I feel horrible and I'm still thinking about this thing and my guilt is creeping up on me and my life has gotten worse and it didn't make me any happier and it didn't solve my problems, so let's do a different iteration next time I have a problem with somebody." That's what I would hope that they would do. Brett: That brings up a great point because a lot of what happens and soldiers that come back from war with PTSD, a lot of the PTSD isn't around what happened to them personally but it's perhaps around the fact that they killed somebody and they did it in anger or rage in the intensity of the moment and that they actually enjoyed it or just something about having done it makes them feel like a monster. They think that that's just some core part of themselves that's unchangeable and makes them bad. Then holding that core belief, just causes so much more suffering and pain in their lives and the lives of those around them.Joe: Yes, that's right. That's exactly it. We are never finished. There is no moment of perfection; and we are reacting to an environment and we're iterating-- that same person-- never going to Iraq or Iran or wherever people are fighting these days, that same soldier, if they hadn't hit that environment, what would they be thinking about their core selves? It's a very iterative thing and I think it's really important to have that mindset and that change not only can happen, it's the only thing that you know will happen. Yes, so that's it.I would think being curious is really important as well, that's the other way of approaching the path that's really important is being curious. This is one of the most enjoyable ones. Let's take that person as an example who feels like, "I'm a bad person because I killed people." What if you're curious about that? What are the questions that actually come up? Instead of knowing that you're a bad person, what would be the most curious questions about it?Brett: What was I feeling, that led me to take that action?Joe: Yes. What makes me not want to kill everybody right now? If that's who I am, what's stopping that in me right now? If that's who I am, what's making me keep on beating myself up over it? What's the part of me that's beating myself up over it, if it's essentially who I am? If it's essentially who I am, what makes me not go to the grocery store and kill a whole bunch of people? There's just curiosity and it frees it up because your fear and curiosity can't exist at the same time.If you imagine yourself running from a tiger. Really, close your eyes for a moment. You're running from a tiger, this tiger is fast and it is hungry and you are running and feel the fear coursing through your system and you're moving as quick as you can and it's catching up on you and you can hear its breath and it's going to get you. You can feel that fear in your system and now wonder how much does the tiger weigh? [Brett chuckles] All the fear goes away. You can't operate from fear if you're curious.It doesn't just operate in the way that I can be curious if I'm not scared. It's why safety is so important from earlier right, because you can't learn, when you're scared. You can also just turn on curiosity and it just reduces fear, just like if you turn on fear it reduces curiosity. That's a cool one. Then the last one and I'd say the most important one is connection. That it's really important to stay in connection, in connection with each other, in connection with yourself, in connection with your body.Brett: What does that mean?Joe: It means being in contact with. It's being in contact. Like you were saying earlier that before when you're thinking about emotions, you're like, "Well, I don't know how to be in my body, all I have is disassociation." A contact means literally like touching. It's to have that point of contact.Can I just touch into the emotion? Can I just touch into the pain? Can I just touch into you? Can I just touch into me? Can I touch into that part of me that I don't want to see? Can I touch into that part of me I'm not proud of? Can I touch into that part of me that is proud?It's connection. It is what allows the tree to evolve, it's what allows us to evolve, is a connection.Brett: Tell me more about how embracing intensity or being curious about the lion that is about to eat you, how is that enjoying yourself? [chuckles] How does that help you get away from the lion?Joe: Yes, that's a great question. On the lion part. Obviously, I'm not suggesting that you should wonder how much a lion weighs or a tiger weighs if they're chasing you. Our system isn't curious when we're in fear for a reason. If you are in fear over something else, like what color of car you should buy or if you're going to get fired, yes, being curious is far more enjoyable than that. Being curious about being fired is far more enjoyable than worrying about being fired.The curiosity is-- you can just feel that in your system. If you just take a moment and you can pause here; and just feel what it's like to know shit and you say "I know, I know what you are, I know what I am," and then to be curious about who you are. You can just feel there's more enjoyment in the body.Embracing intensity is a little bit more complicated as far as enjoyment goes. It's the embrace part of it that makes it enjoyable. Intensity happens, you can't stop it. The Buddhists talk about it and they say, "Pain occurs, suffering is the choice." It's the embracing of the pain that prevents the suffering. The enjoyment is embracing something that you can't avoid or that if you avoid, it's less enjoyable.Meaning if you're a heroin addict, you can avoid the detoxes, you can avoid withdrawals, but it's not going to make an enjoyable life. At that moment, you want to embrace the intensity of the withdrawals. Part of it is the embracing of it when it needs to be done or when it's unavoidable or when it's just better to face the intensity than not, which is almost always. Sometimes we create intensity which is not necessary, but if we're not creating it in a conscious way, then embracing it is great. In fact, embracing intensity is one of the great ways to stop intensity from happening in our lives.Brett: Got it. In a way you let it move through you and change you. Then you learn the lesson in the intensity.Joe: Exactly. Yes, that's exactly it.Brett: Tell me more about what happens on this journey? What are some of the pitfalls, or some of the things that might be surprisingly enjoyable?Joe: Being on the journey, the pitfalls in my mind are slightly different but the being on the journey is there's just some things to know about it. One of the things to know about it is that the way human beings learn is a back and forth nature. It's a pendulation, is the word. I don't even know if it's a word, but it's the word I made up or I'm using depending on whether you can find it in a dictionary. There's a back and forth nature to it.If you look at a baby and a baby learns to walk, they don't just crawl, then one day stand up and walk and then never crawl again. That's not how we learn. We don't learn all at once. We learn by going back and forth. In fact, what they know is that when that back and forth doesn't happen, particularly in babies crawling, that their brain develops differently and it's not a good thing. If you pull a butterfly out of the cocoon, it won't be able to fly. What we think to be struggle or friction, that pendulation of going back and forth, is really a necessary part of the learning process.What you'd normally hear people talking about when they're on the journey, they say for example, "Man, it was doing so good and now it's all gone." Or something like, "Man, I was feeling so blissed out and now all that's gone. How do I get it back?" The other way to look at it is to say, "Oh, cool, that's gone. I'm in the learning process. This is how learning goes." There's a way of looking at it that says, "Oh, cool, it's gone away," which means that I am as much in the learning process as when it's there and I am getting closer; because it's gone, I'm getting closer to a life where that's fully understood and fully recognized. That's a really important thing.Brett: That relates to something else I've seen when somebody starts going through this journey and then all of a sudden they start feeling more emotions that they label as negative and they're like, "Oh, no, I had done all of this work and now all that work is undone and I'm a total mess." [laughter]Joe: Right, which is not. That's beautiful. It's not at all the case. One of the things that could be happening is they're just recognizing that they're having the emotions instead of just taking them out on people when they didn't recognize it before. That's common. The other thing is that they're able to handle them now. One of the things that I'll talk about often, is that we'll do a lot of exercises, where people really increase their love and you'll just notice this happiness.It's like when people can love themselves, then every part of themselves that was unlovable, comes to the surface to be loved, or the next wave of them. It's like shining a light in the water at night to attract cuttlefish. The more work we do, the more attuned we get. If I make an album, which I did in my 20s, I made a Rock 'n' Roll album, I can't listen to songs the same way before and after, I'm so much more sensitive to it, but that allows me to understand and enjoy music in deeper and deeper ways. That's the same thing. There's that sensitivity. That's a beautiful point.Another thing to understand is that when you have big jumps in development, when these big moments happen, there's a natural step that happens which is, things go from unclear to clear to being able to affect the change. Easy way to look at this is with kids. The first thing infants-- they don't even know it's their hand, it's hitting them, it's scratching them, they don't even know it's theirs, then they recognize it's theirs, but they can't control it and then they can control their hand.Piaget calls this primary, secondary and tertiary circular reaction I think is the terminology for it. That doesn't happen just for the use of our hands, it happens when people fully access for the first time, let's say, their emotional intelligence or their somatic intelligence or their awareness. If they're finding that moment of seeing that they are their awareness. Oftentimes, they can't even talk. They're say, "What's going on?" They try to reconstruct their life, because they're like, "Everything I believe is gone, what the hell is going on?" That's the way it works.It's as if they've walked into this new world that they can't control and they can't even identify the parts of. Slowly, you just hang out in the world and everything takes care of itself, just like it does with an infant. If you don't get scared about it, then you're just, "Okay, yes, I don't know anything and I don't have to reconstruct anything." Pretty soon you're talking from that place. That's another thing to know.Development moves like a corkscrew, that's really important. If you think about a corkscrew or stock market, you're moving up into the right, in human development, just like a stock market, you're moving ahead. It's like a corkscrew. Every time you're at the bottom of that corkscrew, it's like daddy issues and every time you're at the top, it's mommy issues. Then you can have abandonment issues or whatever.You have these core things going through your life and you're refining them and they're becoming more and more subtle and more and more different as you become more and more sensitive, that you can notice more and more of the pain and agitation that you're feeling. What people often say is, "I thought I dealt with all my dad issues." It's like before awakening dad issues, after awakening to dad issues.Brett: I was just going to say there's that one meme, where it's like before awakening and there's a child with a boot on his face. Then after awakening, it's the child with the boot on his face, but you can see it's zoomed out and he's holding the boot to his face.[laughter]Joe: I haven't seen that. That's funny.Brett: That's great.Joe: I would say after awakening, he's loving the fact that he's putting his own boot on his face.Brett: It's the unclear to clear part saying, "Oh, I'm putting the same boot on my face." Then the corkscrew is like, "Oh, these are all the different ways I put the boot on my face." It's the same way each time around, but I just keep finding more and more subtle ways to heal it.Joe: Yes, that's exactly--Brett: That comes back to that pendulation, which is, "Wait, I thought I dealt with all this before. How am I--" Sometimes you're just seeing a new spin, the new turn on the corkscrew. Joe: Right, a television show isn't enjoyable if it's just everybody's celebrating the whole show. If you can enjoy being in the not clear as well as the clear, if you can enjoy the corkscrew-- there's this great metaphor and truth, it's not a metaphor in a way. They know that if two people are on a roller coaster and they're going down, same exact experience and one of them is like, "Woohoo," and one of them is, "Oh my God, I'm so scared."You go into their neurochemistry, what they know is that the one, that is scared, is releasing carcinogenic chemicals into their body and the other one is releasing anti-carcinogenic chemicals into their body. The exact same experience can be used to destroy somebody or to heal somebody.Brett: It's the same as learning neurotransmitters like serotonin and dopamine.Joe: Yes, that's right. The cortisol is carcinogenic if I recall correctly. That's what it is. It's, you're going to be on the roller coaster ride. How do you enjoy it? That's the question. How do you allow enjoyment to happen? That's the real question. The last thing to think about on this is, that we have our three brains. We can call them the head, the heart and the gut, or the human, the mammalian and the reptilian, or the nervous system and the emotional and the intellectual. They limit each other.Even though they're really all one, if you're really developed on your intellectual side and you're not developed on your emotional side, it's like having three pencils attached by rubber bands. One can get only so high if one is so low. The most bang you're going to get for your buck is to move the low one higher because it gives everything else the most flexibility. It's just important to know that, if the path that you're working on has stopped working, you probably neglected one of the sides of yourself, one of the parts of yourself, so that's a really important thing to know.Brett: Tell me about enjoying those things? Because this process we've just discussed is that there's going to be pendulation, you're just going to go from, "Oh, I'm healed to I'm still a total wreck." Of course, going through the same problems over and over in different ways, spending a lot of time feeling unclear and then playing whack-a-mole with these three [chuckles] parts of our nervous system. How do we enjoy this process?Joe: A good story from my life was that there's this time when we got kicked out of the house for and at the time I felt like very unjust reasons in retrospect, it wasn't a match. It was a long time ago. Every time I saw the people involved or the house, it just like this knot in my stomach just was so there. It would come and go, as all emotions do, they come in waves. At some point, I'm: "Oh, cool. There's something there that I get to learn from."It got to the point where I would literally drive by the house to hope that that feeling would come back so I could be with it and I could love it and I could spend time with that, I get to attend to it. That's what I did. I learned how to enjoy the thing that I felt was uncomfortable. That's critical and that's what it is, it is to not buy in--Even this story is a way to help you enjoy it because if you buy into the pendulation that you've lost it, then it's very hard to enjoy. If you realize it's a learning process, then it's very easy to enjoy. If you are enjoying it, the learning happens quicker. It's like a virtuous loop. The more we enjoy it, the more we want to approach it and the easier the whole situation gets.Brett: A feedback loop that we were talking about earlier.Joe: Yes, that feedback there. Exactly. Clear to unclear is another great example of it. It's really easy to enjoy not knowing. [chuckles] It's really easy to enjoy being taken. Get in a car with somebody and ask them to drive you somewhere, but not to tell you where they're driving you and not to tell you how long and just see, that can be just as enjoyable, if not more enjoyable. It's really how do you let the enjoyment in, is the question in all of this stuff. That's really the key to preparing for the spiritual journey.Brett: That's great, something to be curious about the entire way.Joe: The entire time, yes.Brett: Now, before we run out of time, I would like to get back to touching on these impediments and pitfalls. What kind of things can happen that can block this whole process?Joe: There's so many little ones that I'm thinking about categorizing them in big ones. One of the pitfalls is thinking that you should do anything. That's a pitfall. It's like finding the wants behind your shoulds and letting your wants motivate you instead of your shoulds motivate you. In essence, the journey of self-development is the discovering of the self.It is self-realization, it is self-awareness and a should in its nature is saying that you need to be controlled, that who you are in general needs to be managed, controlled, modified. Your wants are there is a general trust in who you are. If you think about it in a developmental perspective, an infant from zero years old until seven, they don't have any shoulds, there is no should in their brain. I don't know for sure, but I bet there's a culture where there might not ever be shoulds ever.In that time period, they develop more than any other time period in life. They just follow their wants. Following your wants is really the most effective way to transform and following your shoulds is the least effective way and to make it a should is really just a doubt of trust of who you are.The other crazy thing about wants that I think is really important is you take a five-year-old and they want something, they shout, "No. No. Yes. No," and they throw a temper tantrum.Obviously, when we get older, we don't want to throw temper tantrums, so we say we shouldn't throw a temper tantrum instead of getting in touch with the fact that we don't want to throw-- we have iterated, we have evolved, we now want something different, but we turn that into a should, we change that natural impetus inside us into something that we should do.Resisting resistance is another big one. People don't embrace the resistance, they don't embrace that intensity of resistance. There's a great phrase that just says, "If you can't love it, love the resistance to not loving it." That's really an important thing, is that don't fight the resistance, that's just more resistance. Another one is--Brett: How do you not resist that resistance without creating a new resistance around that? [chuckles]Joe: Yes. Right, exactly. In a war with yourself, who's going to lose? Exactly, yes. There's no way to do it, but to drop it. You just have to just stop. It's the only way. I remember that, I think it was the first time, I was about 24 years old, I went out into the woods to fast. I was looking over this ridgeline and I was noticing that I was fighting myself. Then I was noticing that I was fighting myself to stop fighting myself. Then I was noticing I was fighting myself to stop fighting myself to stop fighting myself. I was just ending up saying, "Yes, this isn't going to work."[laughter]Joe: I just stopped. That was the first moment that I realized that it's not a matter of effort, it's a matter of acceptance, it's a matter of not efforting, it's the stopping of the trying, it is the trust. That's important. Another piece that's important is skepticism. There's two forms of skepticism. One is important, one sucks for the spiritual journey.The important one is, hey, if it's not true for you, you should know it's not true for you and you shouldn't think that it's true for you because some guru said it or because some Bible said it. If there is a truth, then that truth will be apparent in you and it will resonate in you and you will know it. Being skeptical of truth until you understand it and fully feel it, is important. Being skeptical prevents you from trying, preventing you from experimenting, preventing you from being open enough to see a truth, that level of skepticism, it's getting kneecapped. It's like getting your legs cut off in a race. Then spreading that to other people is violent. That's that. Another important one is just notice when you're future or past living.One of the biggest impediments is somebody who's either future living by state-seeking like, "Oh, I want to be in that experience of state again. Oh, I want to enjoy again. Oh, I want to be awakened." The opposite of that future living, which is, "This is going to be so hard. Oh, my God, I don't want to have to do this work. Oh, I have to feel my emotions again. This sucks." Like that. Oh, boy, both of those things, it's not enjoyable. [laughs] It is not enjoyable.Brett: Just having an idea of what you're going to look like, who you're going to be once you've transformed.Joe: Yes, exactly. Not enjoyable.Brett: Projecting your current self onto your future self, "Oh, if only I was perfect in all of the ways that I currently think I should be, then I'll be done." [chuckles]Joe: Yes, exactly. [chuckles] Not enjoyable. It is like the moment is far less enjoyable when you're thinking about how you're going to end up than [laughs] enjoying this moment. If you think about the moments that you've enjoyed yourself most, you probably weren't thinking about your conclusion. [chuckles] Some of the times we enjoy ourselves most is when the proposed conclusion just happened and so there's just nothing to strive for in that moment. Then, you come to the conclusion, "Ah," and then you create something to strive for and then you don't enjoy yourself anymore.Then there's the future and past living in the past. Comparative mind is a form of this, of who's better and who's worse, it's like that requires future and past living to be able to do that. Anything like that it's also, they're big pitfalls, they're stalls in the journey. Then, the last thing about the journey that I think is really important--This is the one that gets the most is that there's this natural cycle that happens that people go through and I'm sure you can recognize it. It's, you think to yourself, "Oh, I really want to--" I don't know, we'll pick anything. "I really want to stop smoking." We'll pick an easy one, "I really want to stop smoking." Then, "Okay, I got to do it. I got to really do it. You should do that. You should do that. You should do that. Why aren't you doing it? Why aren't you doing it? Okay, I'm good." Then, you do it.Then as soon as you do it you're like, "Oh, okay. I hope this lasts. I hope this lasts. I hope this lasts." Then it's, "Oh, it's already going away. I already noticed that I'm wanting cigarettes again. Oh, shit, I had a cigarette. Oh, it's all over, I'm going back into-- Oh, crap, fuck, now I'm smoking again. I got to quit smoking. I got to quit smoking." That's the routine.All of them rely on each other and you can cut it off at any other point but one of the easiest places to cut it off is when that moment when you actually have quit smoking or you have stopped yelling at your wife or you have stopped being a victim, is to appreciate it, is to actually just appreciate that moment and to keep on appreciating it. Instead of trying to hold on to it.Brett: Right.Joe: The idea that it's going to go away, it is the thing that creates it going away. The only thing that's really there to do is just to enjoy this moment. Enjoy that it's gone and the same thing can be said when you're smoking. If you're in the middle of smoking a pack a day, how do you enjoy each cigarette? How do you enjoy the hell out of yelling at your wife if you're going to do it? Because nobody really enjoys yelling at their wife. If you can really enjoy yelling at your wife, I bet the way you yell at your wife will change. It's not going away.Brett: That circles back to a lot of the goal isn't for things to go away, it's to just watch how they shift and how they change. What is the impulse behind the behavior? Trying to be, rather than what our resistance changes it into. All of these impediments that you've just listed, all seem like different forms of resistance and so to wrap this up, since we're running out of time, I just want to ask you, how can you enjoy resistance? [chuckles]Joe: You just pointed to something which is really great, which is if you want yourself to change, it slows down the process. Want is the wrong word. If you're getting angry and you are trying to change the fact that you get angry, that is a slower process, than if you love your anger and you invite your anger in and you welcome your anger. That is a far quicker process.Brett: How can we do that without hurting people?Joe: Wait. Unless you start doing it to try to make it go away, for example “I'm going to welcome my anger to make it go away”, then it doesn't work anymore. I'm not saying welcome your anger at people, I'm just saying welcome the experience of anger that one feels when they're angry. I'm not suggesting to go and be angry at people, but to welcome your anger, to accept it and to love it. To express it in a way that's safe, it doesn't create more shame.I just want to point that, what you said was brilliant and then I think your question was, how do you enjoy resistance? That goes back to that statement of, if you can't love the thing, if you can't love the anger, love your resistance to the anger. How do you enjoy resistance? How do you love your resistance? This is the whole question of the spiritual search and the whole way to prepare, is how do you enjoy this process?Brett: That's great. This has been amazing. I think we're running out of time now.Joe: What a pleasure.Brett: Yes, this has been amazing.Joe: Awesome. Well, I look forward to the next time and it was good talking to you. More to come.Thanks for listening to The Art of Accomplishment podcast. If you enjoyed what you heard today, please subscribe. We would love your feedback, so feel free to send us questions and comments. To reach us, join our newsletter, learn more about VIEW, or to take a course, visit: artofaccomplishment.com

The Art of Accomplishment — AoA Series #1

Play Episode Listen Later Feb 13, 2021 47:41

The premise of The Art of Accomplishment is simple: it is our heart's capacity that determines our success and happiness in life. Emotional intelligence is the bottleneck to the change we want to see in ourselves and the world. Tapping into our heart's potential opens up the possibility of fulfilling our greatest ambitions without sacrificing our sense of joy and authenticity.We are taught early on that if we accomplish enough stuff we will have the life of our dreams, only to find it is a life that fails to make us happy and fulfill our hopes. In this 9-part series, you will discover that how you get things done is what makes your life far more fulfilling.Not only because you will enjoy the process of an authentic life but because enjoyment and self-awareness are critical tools in making what you accomplish more meaningful and effortless.The Art of Accomplishment podcast series accompanies the online course led by Joe Hudson. More more info, visit artofaccomplishment.com."When you're self aware, it means there is a full expression of you happening. It's why with the great artists, you see their full expression. And they can only get to that self expression, they can only get to that level of ease, by having more and more self awareness."Brett: A lot of people have a sense that self-development and accomplishment are mutually exclusive, that in order to be maximumly productive it's necessary to sacrifice parts of who we are, or to back-burner our own personal evolution. We focus on creating systems for setting and achieving goals. We imagine that by doing this, we'll somehow arrive at our fully developed self without examining where these goals came from in the first place. A question I often hear asked is how will self inquiry help me be productive and lead to more accomplishment?Joe: It's an amazing thing about the human brain, that we really like to create false distinctions. It's something that we do. I think it's because the brain in general its job is to create distinction, it likes to create false distinction. It's very much to me like the way it was in the 1970s when you could either be a businessman or you could be an environmentalist but you couldn't be both, that they were at odds.Then somewhere in the '90s, they figured out, "No, you can do both, that's possible." It's the same thing with this. In fact, they really drive each other. The personal development focus, that course if you will, gets tested in business and gets tested in projects, gets tested in getting things done. You get to learn a lot from where that rubber meets the road and vice-versa; that as you learn how to understand yourself better and other people better, which is the whole point of personal development.Then obviously you get better tools in business and you do better at getting things done. It's why I always use the phrase, art of accomplishment. It's speaking about the fact that accomplishing stuff is more about the how, than it is about what you get done. You can accomplish something and your focus could be like, my job is to earn a million dollars but in actuality you're going to be less likely to earn that million dollars, if you're not focused on the how you're going about it.I'll give you an example of this. My girlfriend in college, her name was Cate and she was a really good tennis player. With her coach, she would serve and try to hit like a basket, one of those baskets that you pick up the balls with. She was good, so she would hit it two or three out of five times. Then one day the coach took the basket off the ground and put a quarter right in the middle where that basket was sitting and said, "Serve and hit the quarter."She didn't hit the quarter once, but she would have hit the basket every single time if it was still sitting on top of that quarter. It's the thing that we see in business all the time which is focusing through the goal is one of the ways to make sure you accomplish your goals.Whether it be being the best company in the world, or whether it means beating the competition, or whether it means trying to change the world for the better through environmental solutions, or whether it means great customer service, whatever it is, having a goal that's beyond the goal that you have, makes the goal more likely to be gotten. It makes the goal more likely to be gotten.Brett: Tell me what makes this an art.Joe: You think about art. Think about it like this, there's accomplishment and accomplishment basically means that you've achieved something successfully. Successful is the first question that you have to ask. What does successfully mean? To me, it means that the task is done holistically. Is it an accomplishment to make $10? If that's my goal, if I also like sacrificed everything I love for that $10? That doesn't make any sense at all, that doesn't feel like accomplishment. It's a holistic success.It means that you're firing on all cylinders, that you're getting the whole thing done. Think about it like a building. Success isn't just getting the building erected. It's a quality building. It's a beautiful building. It's a useful building. That's what makes success. You're looking for the holistic thing. Then if you're thinking about it as far as an art form, then you have to move out of the tyranny of a checklist.Which is like, "I've written something down. Now I have to do it, or I'm going to beat myself up because I haven't done it." It's going to move into how you do it. How is it that I'm going about doing it? That's what makes it an art form. There's very specific things. If you think about art in general, what art does, the artistry of something, it means that you have more ease in doing it. It's a path of self-awareness and you recognize that your consciousness is the product. Brett: Let's get into those further. Tell me more about the ease. There's a lot of things that we want to do that are accomplishments, that just simply are not going to ever be easy, or so we think. Joe: Or so we think. There's a couple of ways that go at the ease part of it. One way to go at the ease part of it is to think about it like there's an old story about a prince coming to a butcher. He says to the butcher, "How often do you sharpen your knives?" The butcher says, "I never sharpen my knives." The Prince goes, "That's impossible. The best butchers in the world have to sharpen their knives at least once a month." The Butler says, "No, no, my blade finds the space between the meat and the bone."It's basically saying how you get things done is with the minimal amount of friction, that the master of a craft is doing it with the least moves. It's not about winning or losing anymore. They're far beyond the winning and losing of something. It's just, how do I do it with the least amount of effort? What's amazing in our society is that we think about effectiveness or efficiency in speed, as humans not as cars. Cars, it's really obvious.The fastest car doesn't mean it's the most efficient car, but we think that if we've gotten done something quickly, then we're very efficient, but efficiency isn't measured by speed. In the human condition, it's measured by enjoyment. We are efficient when we are enjoying ourselves. It means the least amount of effort is necessary. The least amount of fuel is necessary to make something happen. If you're accomplishing something with that kind of ease, when you're accomplishing something with enjoyment, which is how we measure that ease, then you're in the artistry of it. That's what I mean by ease.Brett: That makes a lot of sense, because the opposite of ease is that you are actually fighting yourself in some way. There's a part of you that doesn't want to do the thing, another part of you that does want to do the thing. There's dissonance there and a loss of efficiency. It's interesting to think of efficiency as ease or measured by ease.Joe: Exactly. Which is beautifully put, because what you're saying there is that the friction is mostly caused by the lack of self-awareness. When you understand what you are, when you are aware of how you work, there's a lot less friction. That's why the second part is so important. The artistry brings you closer to yourself.If you've ever met a great artist and there's a way, at least when they're working, at the very least when they're working, you see this self-awareness, this presence that occurs and that's what it means. That self-awareness, it brings you closer to yourself. It calls you into something deeper. It has to be a full expression of you. It's self-awareness. When you're self-aware, it means that there's a full expression of you happening. It's with the great artists, you see their full expression. They don't feel muted or stilted. They can only get to that self-expression, they can only get to that level of ease by having more and more self-awareness and the self-awareness of how they work.Brett: That sounds similar to what might happen if somebody's looking at a to-do list of things they want to get done and they think efficiency is efficiently knocking out all the boxes, but what might be actually more efficient is asking themselves why they want to get that list done in the first place. Maybe, if there's one question they could ask themselves that removes half of that list, that is actually an increase in efficiency.It sounds like this is the personal version of doing that, like, "Why is it that I want to be getting these things done? Why is it that I want to be successful? What does success actually bring to me?"Joe: That's a beautiful point. That's exactly right. When I look at my list every morning, I always think about what can I do that will make this whole list irrelevant or easier? It's the same thing with the medalist in life. There's a beautiful technique that you can use, which is, "Okay, if I get that done, am I happy then?" Then my mind will usually go, "No, I'll need this," and say, "Okay, well, if I get that done, will I be happy then?" It can just go on and on.Brett: It's like making the one decision that can eliminate 100 other decisions. Finding, perhaps in many of these cases, the one need within us that resolves 100 other secondary needs that we thought we needed to fill.Joe: That's exactly it and that's what self-awareness does just by its nature.Brett: Great. You mentioned that your consciousness is the product that you're working on in that case. Let's dig into that a little bit more.Joe: That's the last part of what makes it an art form, is that, if you're looking at a piece of art, there's a way in which you can feel like a painting, you can feel how the artist was when they were painting. When the artist acknowledges that, then what the artist can do is really understand that their consciousness is what is being consumed. It doesn't matter if it's Facebook, or Ford, or Van Gogh, we're feeling the consciousness of those people who made it.We're feeling that experience. If they were anxious and nervous, then we're perpetuating anxiousness and nervousness. If they were worried about not having enough, they're going to make sure that we are worried about not having enough, when we use that product or when we consume their consciousness.[crosstalk]Brett: That seems even more true these days, as a lot more consumers are thinking about products that they feel much more personally aligned with rather than just, "Oh, look, it's a jug of milk." It's like, "No, because this is a jug of milk that treats cows in the way that is more agreeable to me." Or, "This is the company that is working on making more fuel-efficient or electric cars and that's something that really speaks to me." What you're saying is that, even a company, even a product, is a piece of art and that the consciousness of its creators should come through in that.Joe: It does. You just can't help it. There's a great quote that my friend Steve used to say to me, he said, "At the peak of a poet's career, he is a businessman and the peak of a businessman's career, he is a poet," or she is a poet or she is a businessman. It is an absolute truth, that how we get something done affects what the end product of our doing is. It's as simple as if we rush to sweep the porch, or if we enjoy sweeping the porch. We're going to get two different jobs done and it's going to look different at the end of it.Our consciousness affects it and it's the acknowledgment that that's the case, that the real gift that we're giving to the world is in the product, that's tangible, it's the product of our consciousness that we're delivering. Acknowledging that the consciousness is part of the equation of the product, that it is in part the product that we are producing and that other people are consuming, is what makes it an art form, not just a doing.Brett: I think another great example of that would be in software development. Any software that's developed by a team that's frenetically running around trying to finish completing their backlog, product and engineering aren't communicating with each other very well. That product is going to end up having that consciousness writ large in its implementation in bugs and missed-- like features that don't make sense, et cetera.Joe: Exactly. That's right.Brett: Let's talk a little bit more about our consciousness as the product of this work. A lot of people would see that as odds with business because the focus is moving away from perhaps the business itself towards yourself. What would you say to them?Joe: Again, it's a lot like the '70s with the environmentalist. You can make money cutting down trees. You can make money planting trees. You can make money making all of your product artistic. You can make money making all of your product as cheap as possible. There's a thousand ways to make money. Just walk down the street of any city and everything you look at has got 7 or 8 or 10 people making money behind it.There's infinite ways of making money. The idea that how we are when we make the money isn't part of that equation is just silliness. It's something that happens when people don't want to feel their whole experience and they make the excuse that, "Oh, it's just business." Or they make the excuse that I had to do this because it's business. The craziest thing is, you look at incredibly successful businessmen who are just merciless in their desire for winning competition or for quality or for customer service. They will never allow a team to not deliver or allow a team to sacrifice the important things.Yet, as soon as the idea is like, "Oh, we can all be growing as humans," or that we can all be having full expression here comes up, they're like, "No, I can't do that." We can out-compete. We can build a billion-dollar company. We can out-compete over-resourced competition, but we can't also do it in such a way that we really enjoy ourselves. It's a ridiculous notion and it comes from an inner thought that they have that they can't be their full selves and be successful. That they had to cut off a part of themselves to be successful. That normally just comes from the fact that they had to cut out a part of themselves to make mom and dad happy. That's where it's really coming from. It's just very limited thinking.Brett: A belief that productivity and achievement requires sacrifice. If you're feeling sacrificed, that might mean you're on the right track to achievement.Joe: Let's take a look at that one for a second. Who sacrificed more, the men who created Google or the men who created Benelli Tires? Who worked harder? Who put their family at bigger risk? It's just nonsensical to think who worked harder. It's nonsensical to think that there is that level of sacrifice needed. There's people who make millions of dollars without it, millions of dollars with it. It's what do you enjoy? It's what do you love?If you love working 80 hours a week and you love that kind of productivity, don't tell everybody it's necessary. Just say it's what you did and you loved it. I listened to Elon Musk talk about this and he said, you have to work all the time and I thought to myself, "You had to work all the time when you had one company. Now you have three companies or four companies, or five companies and you're still working all the time, which really means that you only had to work 25% of the time to do the company that you originally did. You didn't have to work all the time. You're proving it."Brett: That's a really good point. A lot of people say that they have to get a paycheck and so all this art sounds great, but they're not in that position or maybe they're not running their own company. Maybe they're in some hierarchy in some organization or even if they do have their own company, they're just, "Well, I have to make money. I have to make money now. I have to make money with this particular runway. I just don't have time to make this an art."Joe: [laughs] I lived in Los Angeles for a while, I live next to this first generation from Central America family, just sweethearts. The son, when he decided it was time to go out to work, he was 18 years old and he worked at a subway. When he was working at the subway, he just did it with pizzazz. He did it with friendliness, he did it with joy. He did it with a bit of like a singing-- he was just one of those characters.You've had the experience, you've gone into someplace and there's somebody on the other side of the counter who's enjoying themselves and they're maybe singing or they got a little pizzazz, he was one of those people. He worked there I think for three weeks until somebody walked in and was like, "Hey, I have a restaurant and I need someone." Then within another six months, he was the Sous chef. Then he just kept on going.I don't know where he is now but that was the example to me, that it doesn't matter what you're doing. If you do it with artistry, you're creating the world that you want. The idea that you can't do that in any situation-- I mean, Mandela did it in a prison. How he wanted to be. The artistry that he was delivering to humanity was there when he was in a prison. To think that you can't do it because you're in a bureaucracy, it's just as limited of the thinking as a businessman saying, "We can't be whole humans and do business."The crazy thing about that that I think people don't recognize is if you think you can't do it because of your situation, then you're owning the position of a victim. It's like somebody whose life is oppressing them. If you have that position, there's only two people who really want to spend time with you, other victims and people who abuse you, because that's the only people who you have that value for.Other victims will be like, "Great, yes, we're oppressed. Let's all talk about how oppressed we are." The abusers are like, "Cool, you feel like you're oppressed? Great, I will oppress you. That's exactly what I need to get my world cranking." The mentality of that invites it, just like all of our mentalities invite the world that we see, to become real.Brett: Right. That could be an entire episode of its own and I'm sure it will be. How does a person get to this place then?Joe: There's three bits on how a person gets to seeing all of their accomplishment as art, to seeing that there's an art of accomplishment. The first is an intention. I don't call it a goal. I don't call it a mandate. It's just holding it in your consciousness that this is where I want to be. It's like looking at a map and saying Los Angeles is where I want to be, or San Francisco is where I want to be. It doesn't require any more weight than that.Brett: It's like an implementation agnostic goal.Joe: Yes, exactly. That's right. If you dig into that a little bit-- there's this story about an admiral. I can't remember his name, who it was, taken in the POW camps in Vietnam and he was asked, "Who got out of the camps?" He said, "That's easy. It was the people who knew they would get out." The interviewer asked then, “Who didn't get out of the camps?” He answered, "That's easy. It's the optimists."The interviewer was confused and said, "Optimist? What do you mean? How is that different than your first answer?" He said, "The optimists were the ones who thought they'd get out by Christmas, or by Easter, or by the rainy season. They were the ones that didn't make it." The intention is just holding that intention out there, knowing that you're going to arrive there. That's the first bit. The second bit is take it all as an iteration. There's no failure. There's no success.There's just I am learning by iterating and experimenting, iterating and experimenting, iterating and experimenting. I don't have to be hard on myself to learn lessons. I don't have to be hard on myself, because I had a certain timeframe. It's just a very gentle iteration, iteration, iteration, just the way you would think an artist would do after a 20-year career. They kept on playing, kept on trying and new and crazier things came out. Then the last part is to know that it's not really a doing.You asked, how does a person get there? It's not a doing, it's an undoing. We're just basically learning to undo a whole bunch of training and be in a natural state. I'll give you a great example of it. If you put your two hands together and put it like, let's say that the palms of your hands in front of your face and try as hard as you can to pull your hands apart.If your hands are apart right now, you're not trying, you're doing, so forget the doing and just go to the trying and try as hard as you can to pull your hands apart. Now without thinking about it, feel the exact opposite thing that you feel when you're trying. That's what it means to undo, you're undoing. That's what you do. To make all of your accomplishment artistry, to make life the art of accomplishment, then you're undoing.Brett: It's interesting. As I did that, during the trying, there's like a sense of planning going on throughout my entire system. Imagining which muscles I would move and how to move my hands apart. I can do all of that without actually moving at all. It feels like a good metaphor for beating myself up over a to-do list.Joe: Exactly. That's exactly it. Awesome. That's great.Brett: Then what are we undoing exactly and what does that help us accomplish, or how does that help us to accomplish things?Joe: The main thing that you're undoing is this misconception that you aren't inherently good. Basically, what we're undoing is a whole bunch of limiting beliefs. There's probably about seven main limiting beliefs, but they're all resting on one limiting belief. The one limiting belief is that you're not inherently good, that you have to put effort to make yourself good enough, of value, better, that it's not your natural place, that you're not there yet.If you think about an oak tree, when is an oak tree good enough? Is the oak tree good enough when it's an acorn or when it's 2 years old or when it's 150 years old or when it's collapsing, when it's becoming dirt, when is it good enough? When is it not inherently good? That's the thing that we think about ourselves is that we have someplace to be to get inherently good and or some way of being and what's actually preventing us from acting in an inherently good way is only the idea that we're not, it's only the idea that we've done something wrong--Brett: Right. I think that's a really good point, because there's a really big pitfall that I've experienced in personal development or trying to become more productive or work on my systems of accomplishment, where we start to see how everybody else is doing things and we're like, "Oh man. I need to get from where I am to where they are by somehow making myself better, because I'm not good enough. If only I had this person's system or that person's motivation and drive or that person's clarity. If I could get there, then I would be able to get things done," which just really does reinforce that, "Oh, I'm just not there yet. I just don't have it in me." Silently.Joe: Exactly, which just slows down the whole system. A baby doesn't think that they're bad, because they're crawling, they're going to walk. They don't need to think that they're bad, because they're crawling. It's just a natural part of the developmental cycle and there's that form of goodness and there's also the other form of goodness, which is every time you defend something in yourself, there's some way that you're believing that you're not inherently good, that you have to defend something about yourself.I don't mean defense like someone tries to throw a punch, you block it. I mean defense like someone accuses you of being bad and you think you have to justify something. What would make you need to justify something? If somebody came to you and said the sky is purple at noon, the sky is purple, would you really need to defend the fact that the sky was blue? There's some inherent belief system that there's something, that there's a shame, that there's something wrong with us and that's part of the inherent goodness that once you understand that that is your natural state, there's so much less to be doing, so much less.I'll give you an example for a second about how it works. Let's say one of the limiting beliefs that I see people do all the time is that perfection is more important than connection. They think that they need to be perfect because they think that they're not good enough or their thing needs to be perfect or their presentation needs to be perfect or their product needs to be perfect or the date needs to go perfect or whatever it is.They focus on that trying to make it perfect instead of how do I connect. They choose perfection over connection. If they choose connection, they're far more successful and they will choose it naturally if they don't think that they have to be perfect to be good enough or to be good. Specifically, how this works is, you can try to create the perfect product or you can try to create a product that's in connection with your customer and to stay in connection with your customer. The second is going to do much better than the perfect product. If you have a first date and you're trying to be perfect, that's not going to go so well.Even if they happen to have a second date for you, you've been trying to be perfect so they're not dating you, they're dating some idealized version of yourself and eventually that shit's going to go sideways. Whereas, if you just go for the connection, if you say, "Oh, how do I connect with this person? Let's see if it's a match." Then it's a far more productive stance. The place where it's most articulated is in meditation where people try to have the perfect experience of meditating instead of being in connection with themselves. It's the difference between torture and meditation. Meditation is connection. Managing yourself is torture.Brett: I spent a long time in meditation doing maybe an hour practice every day just because I was really stressed out about work and beating myself up over to-do list, the usual. I would meditate more and more and find that it would call my mind, but my goal in meditation was to call my mind not to feel what I needed to feel. That really just pulled me away from the emotions that were trying to help me update to my situation.Joe: I find that if you're trying to manage your experience, it's pulling you away from yourself instead of being with what you are and enjoying it.Brett: Tell me some more of those limiting beliefs.Joe: There's a couple others that I can think about. There is improvement instead of being authentic. That's the one that you mentioned earlier in the podcast, where you were talking about wanting to be better at this or better than that, instead of wanting to know what you actually are. I want to be enlightened instead of wanting to know what I am. Wanting to be enlightened path is a far slower path than wanting to know what I am.I want to work successfully 60 hours a week is far less effective than understanding what your natural rhythm is and what your natural way of being most productive is. It's that constant question of like trying to improve yourself instead of find out what your authenticity is.Brett: Or I want a hundred million users versus I want this to improve people's lives.Joe: Right. If it's authentic that you want a hundred million users, if that's really the thing that's going to charge you, then that might be your authenticity, but then the question is, what do you have to do that is authentic to you to get them, instead of how do I make my podcasts so great that they get them, that I get the users?Brett: What are some others?Joe: Other ones is shoulds before wants. I find people always are trying to motivate themselves with their shoulds instead of with their wants and wants are far more motivating and far more effective at getting us places. If you think about the first seven years of your life, you couldn't even have shoulds and then all of a sudden, shoulds show up and all your development slows down. You get more development in the first seven years of your life than you do pretty much at any other time of your life.It's when you stop following your wants and you start following your shoulds that everything gets slowed down. Again, like with both of these, the only way you would think, oh, I need to improve, instead of, I need to be authentic, is if you think that you're not inherently good. The only way you would think I should do that, instead of, I want to do that is because you think that you aren't inherently good.There's seven of them but the other one that's just coming to mind right now is the one we spoke about, defense versus love. That most of us immediately move to defend ourselves rather than love the person. The quintessential example of this is the boss tells you what you need to do to improve and most people get defensive, instead of saying to themselves, "Oh my goodness, my boss just took a social risk on me. Potentially risked our relationship, because he cared or she cared enough to help me be successful." We don't think, "Oh well, thanks. Thanks for taking the risk of telling me that."Brett: That's quite a flip on the usual script.Joe: Right, because we move from defense instead of love. These are all the ways and we only have to do that if we think we're not inherently good. That's what they are.Brett: How does seeing your inherent goodness tie into the art part of this art of accomplishment?Joe: If you see that you're inherently good, then obviously things become more enjoyable and more easy because there's less fight that you have with yourself. That's just simple. The more that you focus on your enjoyment, the more you stop having to fight with yourself. There is this quote that, "In a war with yourself, you're always going to lose." That enjoyment comes to a large degree because you're fighting with yourself has ceased or has slowed down. That happens when you see your inherent goodness. That's part of how that works.Then when you fully realize, that your consciousness is what is coming through whatever product you're creating, then the question is what's the consciousness that you want to give to other folks. If you're coming from a place of understanding your inherent goodness, then that's the product that you're going to be creating. It's one that ties people into their inherent goodness. It's not so limiting as one might think. Meaning, take a look at some of the great artists of our day. I'll use a comedian because it's the--Brett: For example?Joe: I'll give us an example because some people might not call him an artist but Jim Carrey. If you listen to his story and this is so much the case, it's like they were going about their career. It wasn't going so well. Then all of a sudden they just were like, "I am going all the way. I am not going to hold back. I am going to take the big risk of my full expression. I'm going to basically trust that if I just go all the way with myself, things are going to work out. I'm going to trust that goodness." All of a sudden, bolder and bolder things come out of the artist. Jim Carrey is an example of this.When we watch it, we think it's confidence. We're like, "Oh my God, that guy could do all that crazy stuff. How confident must he be?" It's really a confidence in something that's beyond them. It's a confidence in their inherent goodness. When you see that in people, we just naturally want to follow it. We just naturally want to be a part of that. It's why we see so much of that in some of the greatest movers and shakers of our time. People who've accomplished just amazing things in their lives is that full trust. I guess one of the ways to look at it, is to see it as it's like channeling. You can only channel if you trust what's coming through you.That channeling is what it starts to feel like when you're deeply in the art of accomplishment. A way to look at the art of accomplishment is like in some traditions they would call it channeling. They would call it cleaning out your tube so that you could have greater access to the thing that's moving through all of us. The animator of all life. Neurology would call it alpha waves but it's not flow state. Being in that flow state can only come when you can rely on your inherent goodness. If you're judging yourself, you're questioning yourself and you're in a fight with yourself, you can't be an alpha. You can't be in flow state.Brett: Another good way to describe that I think is just something, this idea of channeling is acting from something that's coming from outside of your identity of yourself. A lot of artists-- we were talking about artistry here. A lot of musicians have talked about how when they were in the flow and they were writing some of their biggest hits, they felt like it wasn't them doing the writing. It was just the words were coming through them. Joe: We've all had this experience. We've all had the experience of playing music without having to think about it or just channeling the emails and just knowing exactly what to write. We've all had the experience of being in that flow state and that only comes when we can trust our inherent goodness.Brett: I think that's the feeling people are trying to get at, when they're knocking out a to-do list, finding themselves in that flow. I think a lot of this is just it's not about the to-do list, it's about what it is that you actually want to be doing.Joe: It's about allowing the lack of fight to be in your system. Our system by nature doesn't want to fight with itself. To allow that to happen really allows the flow state to occur. The final bit is as I think you already mentioned it, it's the self-awareness, which is the only way that we're ever going to see that we're inherently good is for us to see what we inherently are. It requires us to drop the stories of ourselves and the ideas of ourselves and it requires us to love the ego right into oblivion.That self-awareness is what allows us to see that we're not just channeling it, we are it. That we thought we were small, but what we really are is part of everything. When we see ourselves as everything, when our identity switches from the little me to the whole, then the inherent goodness is all. Everything is in that inherent goodness. There's just a piece that comes with it. That's why, when you see those artists who have 50 years at the carving table and you see just this piece in them, the piece of artistry, of a deep artistry, that's where it comes from.Brett: As we start to view accomplishment more as an art, what is going to change about the way that we do things and how do we address that fear that might exist, that getting into this personal development stuff is going to make us even for a period of time, less productive? If we have a 18-hour Workday right now and that's the thing that we're doing and it just feels like the whole house of cards is going to collapse if we just take one day off from that, what's the step forward?Joe: That's a great question. They did this great study in the US Army. The study was that they took two tests that were the same test, but different reliable and whatnot. They took a group of soldiers in boot camp and they just worked them to death and had them sleep-deprived. Then they put them in front of the test and they did the test and then they let them rest for a couple of days, RNR and then they came back. They weren't sleep-deprived and they did the test.They asked the soldiers of these two tests, which one did you think you scored better at and which one do you think you did quicker? 80% of the people thought that they had done quicker work and more accurate work on the first test when they were sleep-deprived. In actuality, 100% of them did better when they had rest and they were not being rushed through the whole situation. It tells us that we have a mental illusion that happens, like an optical illusion. We think that when we're busy and we were sleep-deprived and we're running around checking off boxes, we think we're more efficient when in actuality we're not. Brett: The multitasking studies as well, where they proved that people really do not multitask. They just think they multitask, but their performance actually degrades.Joe: Exactly. It's exactly the same principle. The first thing is to acknowledge that situation. Then to start to disassociate the idea of ease with productivity. Some people, because they're only productive when they're in friction, they think that productivity is friction. To see, to really find real ways of measuring, "Are you getting the stuff done and not working as hard or enjoying yourself more?" They really find that out.It's interesting. This culture, it's, "You didn't work 60 hours, why are you lazy?" In other cultures that have been doing particularly Southern Europe, they're like, "You had to work 60 hours to get your job done? Why are you so incompetent?" It's just a completely different way to take a look at it. That's the first thing to know. The second part of your question is how do things change? Well, you get bigger things done. You get things that are more aligned in your system done. You don't sacrifice your well-being from the accomplishment of your career or your money but you don't sacrifice your career and your money, so that you can have better well-being.The dichotomy starts to go away and you see that your work is a means to an end of your well-being. That the well-being is a means and an end to your work. That they become the same thing. They stop becoming separate in your system. The nervous system starts to relax. You start doing things like, "Oh, I can move this lever here and I just have to wait for a couple of months and everything will fall into place." Or, "I could put two weeks in and I will have it done in one month instead of two."You start to see these little leverage points. You start to see the world more as a system. The way the artist talk about it is-- like carving artists, they'll talk about, that they see the work in the wood, before they even get started. It's not about, "I have an idea of what I want it to look like and I'm going to carve it into the wood." It's like the wood is telling me what it wants to be carved into. What it wants to be made into.That's the experience of life in general. Is that you're following. The Daoists talk about it as the way of water. Water doesn't require any effort to get to the ocean. It just follows. It just goes to the lowest point. It is effortless in its way. It is more powerful than any sword. Try to fight water with a sword and you'll know. That's the way that it starts to feel. That life starts to feel.Brett: So, what you were saying earlier, is that a lot of this work is actually an undoing. An undoing of the limiting misconceptions of self?Joe: If you look at the martial arts, they really subscribe a lot of the same theory to what I'm talking about. One of the ways is that your whole body is relaxed until the moment of impact. If I was going to tense the whole time and hit you, my punch is a lot less powerful than if I'm relaxed the whole time and then tense right before I hit you. It's conserving your energy and making you stronger at the same time. Making your movement have more impact. We somehow think walking around tense all the time is going to make us more effective. It's just ridiculous.Brett: Right. Also keep us narrowed and focused too. If we're walking around tense about all the things that we're thinking about getting done, we're not asking the bigger questions, that really help us find that one decision that can eliminate a hundred decisions. A lot of what you're talking about, this idea of breaking down these misconceptions of the self and trusting and leaning back into our inherent goodness. Letting go of the trying and just being in the doing.A lot of that allows us, our entire nervous system and our minds to relax and see outside of the boxes of any of the shorter-term tasks of thinking that we're doing which, really helps us to really guide our lives out of grander scale and then drive our businesses. Kids spend several months working on go, go, go. Getting one particular project done. Pushing one feature, that part way through the process we could have easily, if we had a big enough view, determined the landscape had changed and that this is becoming a waste of effort.Joe: It happens on fractal levels. It happens on, "Wow, I've just spent 20 years creating a life that I don't want." It happens on, "I just spent two months doing a project, that my boss really didn't give a shit if I did and I just spent the last two minutes worrying about something that I could have spent creating something."Brett: I think that's one of the things that makes this so counterintuitive is that often it's just much easier to think, "Oh, I'm almost there. I just need to do this, that and the other things, that are in line with my past 20 years of plan and that would get me there," which is a much easier thing to experience for many, than the recognition that maybe 20 years of my life has been spent further and further away from my authenticity.Joe: Right and getting me there is the crux. That's the bit, the idea that where you are right now isn't good enough. You see this all the time in business where you see somebody who's been successful talking to somebody who's trying to be successful. The person who's trying to be successful is like, "Well, you're able to be so confident, so being able to say yes or no to things, so nonchalant about opportunities, because you already have success." There's some truth to that. There's no doubt about it, but what I've seen is that the people who hold that position, invite the success, more than they get it.What I notice in my business is that the more that I became picky, the more that I decided it just wasn't worth it if I didn't do the thing that I wanted to do. I started rejecting clients, or I started rejecting investments, or I started rejecting really good deals, then all of a sudden, more and more good deals, more and more good clients started showing up. That comes when you aren't in that place of fear that you need to prove something. To be good enough, to be loved, it comes when you can trust your inherent goodness.Brett: I think that speaks a lot to this reciprocal nature of accomplishment versus personal development, where it seems that, many of us think that accomplishment is going to give us the confidence and so if we just go for accomplishment first, then we'll have the confidence. What you're saying is that we can build the confidence. We can build not just a false sense of confidence, but if we are confident in who we actually are, then that will lead to the accomplishment, which then can feedback-- because there is a little bit of feedback loop.Like you said, once you've been successful doing something, it definitely helps you feel that way. We can actually work on that personal side directly and everything else is downstream of there.Joe: I wouldn't even call it confidence. It's like the closest word that our society knows to put on it, because confidence feels like-- at least the way it's interpreted is "I'm good enough or da, da, da." It's not really I'm good enough. It's just, I know what I am. I just know what I am. I know what I like. I know what I want and I am committed to being a full expression of that.That's the key thing and that knowing who you are and really finding out, that's what the real cool part about the whole journey is, right? Because to do that, you have to see that you're inherently good. Then to do that, you have to see what you inherently are and then that requires us to drop these stories and our ideas of ourselves and it requires us to just allow the ego to be loved into oblivion. Brett: That transforms us into an artist.Joe: Yes and the artist transforms us into that. To see ourselves as everything, allows us to have that energy when we move in the world instead of to see ourselves as this limited thing.Brett: Great. Well, thanks again for your time.Joe: Thank you. A pleasure.Thanks for listening to The Art of Accomplishment podcast. If you enjoyed what you heard today, please subscribe. We would love your feedback, so feel free to send us questions and comments. To reach us, join our newsletter, learn more about VIEW, or to take a course, visit: artofaccomplishment.com

The Future of Retail: A Conversation with Intel Exec, Joe Jensen

Up Next In Commerce

Play Episode Listen Later Feb 4, 2021 54:32

Convenience is king. Everyone wants the easiest experience possible, but, they also expect that experience to be seamless and delightful at the same time. When it comes to shopping, ecommerce has been able to bring all those elements together better than in-store retailers. But even though brick and mortar retailers are facing an uphill battle, Joe Jensen believes that they aren’t going anywhere, and there are still massive innovations to be seen to make a more cohesive experience. Joe is a vice president in the Internet of Things Group and the general manager of the Retail, Banking, Hospitality and Education Group at Intel. He is helping brands across all industries and of all sizes become more nimble and data-centric. According to Joe, there are simple changes retailers can implement to solve big problems so long as you’re asking the right questions.. Like, what if you could solve all of your inventory issues with a simple technology that has already been in existence for years? And how can brands leverage in-store experiences as more of an enhancement to customers who typically enjoy online shopping but crave something more in-person?On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Joe answers those questions and more. Plus, he explains how and why traditional retailers should be utilizing more data just like their ecommerce competitors, and he gives a first look into the technologies that will be making an impact on the future of retail. Main Takeaways:Curation is the Cure: The role of retail is changing, and the retailers who lean into curated experiences will be able to better meet the new expectations of consumers. Rather than offering a little bit of everything, stores will want to give customers a deep dive into a specific brand experience, because that is what they crave when they are shopping offline.Bring On The Data: When digitally-native businesses start to open brick-and-mortar locations, they insist on having as much data captured as possible about the customers who enter their stores. Traditional retailers don’t want or feel they need the data simply because they’ve never used it before. But the nimble retailers that use all the data at their disposal will be the ones to win even against their data-heavy, digitally-native competition.Incoming Technology: From computer vision to full RFID implementation, technology is going to change the way shopping happens for both the customer and the business. But, don’t expect these changes too quickly. Despite the fact that using RFID technology would solve nearly all inventory issues, many brands are hesitant to implement that wholesale change. Why is that? And what will be the catalyst to finally change? Tune in to find out.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Hey everyone and welcome back to Up Next in Commerce. This is your host, Stephanie Postles, co-founder at Mission.org. Today on the show we have Joe Jensen, vice president and general manager of Retail Banking, Hospitality and Education Business at Intel. Joe, how's it going?Joe:Oh, fantastic. Beautiful day here in Phoenix.Stephanie:Good. Yeah, I'm glad to hear it. That is a mouth full title, but I feel like you deserve it when you've been somewhere for 36 years, I saw?Joe:Isn't that scary. I didn't even think I'm 36 years old, so it's weird.Stephanie:That's amazing, actually. I want to just start there. Tell me how did your journey begin at Intel and what are you doing today? What's your day to day look like now versus 36 years ago?Joe:Well, I started as a product development engineer at Intel, and I worked in a bunch of different product disciplines as an engineer. My original life plan was really to leave Intel at about year 10 and go to a startup, but by year 10, Intel stock options were so attractive that I ended up being so that fully handcuffed into the company.Stephanie:Yeah. As with most tech companies, I was this close to staying at Google for the same reason. I'm like, "Oh, it's hard to leave. I see my options vesting in year three and five and seven," and you can just extrapolate it out and it'll keep you there. But it's good-Joe:I shifted from engineering to the business side in about year seven, and I've done a ton of different business startups in the company. I think one of the things I'm most proud of, I've started three businesses that were at zero and have hit over 500 million a year.Stephanie:Oh, wow. So what are the businesses that you've worked on?Joe:Two different ones in an embedded space, and then now the Retail Banking, Hospitality. Education is added into that, but that business started, gosh, it started at single digit millions and we grew it to, well, we're the largest business within the IoT space in Intel I can say.Stephanie:That's cool. So tell me a bit about when you're saying IoT, and then retail banking, now education, how do I imagine what you guys are doing for your partners? What are you providing them? What does that look like?Joe:In our space, the IoT space for Intel is really where IT for an enterprise meets the real world. So in the case of retail, it could be digital signs, point of sales systems, inventory management, building management, time clocks, any system that might be connecting into IT. If you go into the manufacturing side, which is in my space, the manufacturing units, it's where equipment data flows in off of manufacturing side flows into the enterprise.Stephanie:And how many opportunities are being missed right now by not implementing? I would say data analytics like you're talking about. When it comes to inventory I know that Walmart for a while was trying to figure out how to track out of stock issues and it was really hard even when they had the cameras going around the lanes because they couldn't see behind what was in front of it. I don't know if they figured it out yet, maybe you know better than me, but what opportunities are being missed by not having this implemented into retail stores?Joe:As an engineer, I really think about root cause and what's the underlying problem, and we really believe that inventory inaccuracy is one of the underlying problems in physical retail. The problem we have is if customer can't find it in the store, it's out of stock. It doesn't matter if it's in the backroom, doesn't matter if it's hidden behind some items on the shelf, it doesn't matter if it's misplaced. If the customer can't find it, it's out of stock. We have data and research that shows that 1% of customers who experience an out of stock will go through the whole journey of they search on the shelf for it, they go track down a staff person to go find it, they dig through the rack or they don't find it. They say, "Hey, hold on. Let me go check in the back." They go look in the back and then come out and then maybe they go to the POS and they look to see if another store has it, or they'll ship it to your house. 1% of the shoppers are that patient.Stephanie:That's me. I'm that 1%. I did that the other day at Pottery Barn. But then I was very upset at the end because I was like, just like what you said, let me look in the back. Not there. Let me look at our partner stores. Not there. Let me look online. Ooh, it's not the size you want. And at the end I'm like, "Ugh. Okay, goodbye. I never want to come back again." I love Pottery Barn, but.Joe:Talk about a study that showed that if a customer experiences that out of stock frustration five times in a store, they stopped going.Stephanie:Yeah, I can see that. So how do you go about solving something like that to get all your systems on top?Joe:It's really tough. I still think RFID is going to play a key role. Japan has a huge labor shortage problem. They just said because of the aging of their population, they don't have enough labor, and the government decided four or five years ago to put a big push on RFID, and they're mandating by 2025, all consumer goods that are sold in China have to come from the manufacturer RFID tagged. They've also funded a kind of research-Stephanie:And that essentially keeps everything inventoried, right? Then you don't have staff to work.Joe:Yes. What happens is you don't even need staff to check out now because consumers will put their items in a basket, step the basket on the checkouts, and it'll read all the tags and then we'll just pay and go.Stephanie:So it's like the Amazon Go store where they're experimenting with, but I don't know whatever actually happened to that. I went into one in Seattle maybe two years ago, but are they still around? What happened with the Amazon stores like that?Joe:They're still running. They do a tremendous amount of business. I don't know how much of it's because of convenience and how much of it is the novelty. I suspect that they're augmenting a lot of that with human capital behind the scenes. I do think that you're going to find retail bifurcating into two types of retail. You're going to see the hyper-convenient side, which is you just want to take all the friction out. How do I take all the hassle? How do I take all the friction out for the shopper? And I think for staples day to day things, you want to go pick up fast food, fast food should be fast. I won't throw the chain under the bus, but there's a new location near our house, and I swear there's a three-hour wait all day, every day.Stephanie:Oh my gosh.Joe:Fast food just isn't that good for me. I'm not going to wait in line for three hours to get my fast food. And so I think on the hyper-convenient side, that's a big part of retail. Then on the other side, we're calling hyper experience. With hyper experience, shopping is an enjoyment and a pastime for a lot of people. And during the pandemic, obviously you can't go to the mall. You can't go shopping like you used to, but that will come back, and that you want to go and get experiences. You don't want to go to department store A and then walk down the mall to the department store B. And if you close your eyes when you walked in, you wouldn't know which store you're in.Joe:Now, if they all have the same assortment, they all have the same brands, they all have the same brand micro stores inside their department store, what's the experience that you're delivering to the consumer? If you go try to find a piece of clothing and it's out of stock, how's that experience? That's not a very good experience. So yeah, it's funny. I had one of my engineers in China explaining how he really has everything delivered. All his groceries, all his food. China is just hyper convenient from that perspective. It's cool and I love it.Stephanie:But they're used to it. They grew up like that, though. I feel like here, if you try and introduce some of those conveniences, it'd be like everything should be done this way. I don't know. I think Americans are a little bit more like, "Oh, that's weird," because we just know we have to do like this.Joe:It's really cultural differences, but I love this quote from him. And he said, "If I'm going to bother to put pants on and leave my apartment, it'd better be worth it."Stephanie:That's pretty great, and true. I feel that.Joe:It's like if I need batteries, do I want to get in the car and drive and go buy batteries? Well, if I do that and go to the store and they don't have that special battery, then it's really disappointing because now I spent 20, 30 minutes going out of my house to go get something because I wanted it right now and then they don't have it. This is why consumers do it a few times, they just start ordering online.Stephanie:Yeah. And I think the product, like you said, has to be worth it. How are you guys thinking about the experiences piece? Because we've had quite a few guests come on the show who've talked about their retail locations and turning them more into an experiential place, where you go there and you've got the certain music, and the vibes, and maybe you've got a yoga class going on over here and you're going there, not just to maybe pick up your product that you did order online during this time period, but you're also going there to maybe experience something that you wouldn't get elsewhere.Stephanie:A lot of people are saying retail's dead and I definitely do not see that happening. I'm like there is pent up demand to go in person and to go into stores, but I do think now there's going to be a new level of expectations of the consumers, not just going to want to go and shop around, they're going to want something else. How do you do that?Joe:I think that the role for retail is changing in terms of what experience means. If you go back 30 years ago, 40 years ago, shoppers didn't know what the new fashions were until they went to their favorite store and they saw what the new fashions were. So you went to your favorite store whether you're a Neiman Marcus shopper or Macy's shopper or a Target shopper, you went to the store to see what's available, what's in now. And there was that discovery and learning and value proposition that that store was giving you by bringing you things that fit your demographic. Today people know what's current as the store learns what's current. It's what the celebrities are wearing between social media and how quick things are in internet time. There is really no discovery value proposition for mass merchandise things.Joe:Where we see real success is curation. So you go to a store that's not a little bit of everything. It's a store that dives deep into a lifestyle or deep into a fashion style or deep into a demographic, and you go there and you immerse yourself in that brand, and then you immerse yourself in what that brand is about. That's the discovery. If you're someone who likes West Elm, and the style that West Elm delivers, you go to West Elm to see things that would be hard to find on your own elsewhere. If you wanted to go find your own curation, it would take you months of time on the internet trying to go discover all that stuff. But you can go to a store where their buyers have pulled that look together for you.Joe:If you're a Pottery Barn shopper, same kind of thing. You go to Pottery Barn and they've curated a set of things that fit a certain demographic and the lifestyle that they're looking for. So I think you're going to see a lot more of that curation. We did tour in New York City a couple of years ago, and the stores that were really doing amazing well were really deep into that curation idea.Stephanie:Yeah. I love that. I completely agree. I'm thinking right now about going into a Crate and Barrel or something like that, and I'm looking to find new things of a similar style, instead of going somewhere that's exactly the same that I can just find online. That's a really interesting take. How are you viewing the omni-channel experience of making sure that's frictionless when someone's looking online and then going into the store and having a good experience online and offline?Joe:I think a few retailers are starting to really get it right. I think in the beginning, omni-channel was a poor band-aid for I'm out of stock in the store, and I think most customers didn't see that as a good solution. I think the right way to think of omni-channel is there used to be a really consistent funnel for how shoppers and the shopper journey went from just initial discovery all the way through purchase, and that funnel, I think, no longer exists. I think people find out about products all over the place. You might see it on a television show. You might hear about it from a friend, you might see it on social media, and your discovery happens in your life. Omni-channel really ought to enable you to easily find something you're interested in whenever you see it, or whenever you want to. There was an old Burger King commercial Have It Your Way, I think 30 years ago.Stephanie:I remember that.Joe:I think the omni-channel today really means that shoppers ought to be able to engage with a brand or engage with a product wherever and however they want to.Stephanie:And I like the idea too of picking up where you left off. Like if I'm shopping online and then I enter the store or get near it, a subtle reminder of, "Oh, hey. You were looking at this and it's actually here on aisle seven," or whatever it is, directing me to complete the consumer journey. But I don't feel like it's there yet. I know we've got beacons and ability to see when people are entering your store and track that, but it seems like not a lot of retailers have fully leaned into that method to make sure that the full experience is cohesive.Joe:Yeah. I think that we're coming from the early days of that. One of my favorite stories years ago, we were shopping for a Tiffany lamp years ago, a couple of years ago, Tiffany lamp. And I searched online one night, looked at some options. We went to a store and we bought a Tiffany lamp. And for the next two months, every banner ad I had on the internet was for Tiffany lamps.Stephanie:Yeah. It's like I'm past Tiffany now. I'm onto the next kind of lamp.Joe:I think that what's happened is there's been too much of trying to use algorithms and online searches and data to try to target individuals with things that you think they might be interested in and not enough focus on helping people build a cart of things that you are interested in. So, for example, imagine if you turn it around for a minute and the brand for an item that you're interested in has an ability for you to put something that you're interested in, in a basket. And then when you pass a store that carries that item, that has it in stock, they flag you that this thing you're interested is in this store, and it's almost turning it all the way around from the store or the brand pushing to having the brand help guide you to where you find things.Stephanie:Yeah, that's really good. That's the kind of world I would like to live in where it actually is helpful and not annoying. I was just speaking with another guest about text messages and how certain retail locations will be like, "Come on in for 20% off," and I'm like, it's not helpful when I'm sitting on my couch, watching The Bachelor. It's helpful when I'm walking into the store and they're like, "Hey, you better make sure you buy that rug from World Market because here's a coupon now. So make sure you finish the journey and you don't just walk in and out." But yeah-Joe:You're reaching to the point that's one of the things I think the retailers especially are missing, and I don't know what a good analogy is, but I think that discounts and sales and coupons are an overused tool and they influence a lot of people, but not everybody. I think that for some people being first is more important than getting it on sale. For other people something scarce and having access to it before it runs out. So I think there's a lot of opportunity, even just convenience. Take a grocery store, nearly every grocery store I've ever been in, they put all the staples in the back, and they run with 19th century's retail logic of, oh, if I make people walk all the way through the store, they might buy some more stuff.Stephanie:Not me, I got blinders on. I'm like I need my milk and goodbye.Joe:It turns out that the convenience stores like 7-Eleven sell a ton of milk. I don't know if you've ever bought a gallon of milk at 7-Eleven.Stephanie:I have, yeah. Hey, my two year old, desperate times desperate measures.Joe:And it's about convenience. So if I were in a grocery chain, in fact, I talked to one about this big chain recently and said, "Why don't you take your house brands of the staples and put them in a section in the front of the store where they're super convenient and mark them up, make them the same price or maybe even a little bit more than the branded stuff." And the answer was, "Well, we tried that and it didn't work." I'm like, "Oh, when did you do that?" "It was like 10 years ago." I'm like, "People have changed a lot in 10 years."Stephanie:Yeah. I'd rather pay more to get right to it. So what are some maybe interesting stories like that, where they have listened to your advice and they've seen good results? Or anything where you're like, "Oh, I remember this one customer did this and they increased revenue a bunch because of this one subtle tweak in the store layout or how they did their products or inventory," or whatever it may be.Joe:We'll start a little bit maybe with I think that pretty much in every case when we've helped a retailer test or try a technology, the results always exceed the indicators that they put forward. And the very be wilderness thing to us is that even though these solutions look to deliver tremendous results and impact, they still don't scale them.Stephanie:I don't think.Joe:Years ago we had a partner that was putting cameras in the ceiling to measure shopper engagement, how long does it take for a staff to engage a customer? And they happen to have as an artifact of that, I won't say the brand, but they had a brand of popular, very popular Cola was in the camera view on the shelf. And they observed that this diet version, this Cola was out of stock almost all the time. So they went to the head of all stores for this giant grocery chain and said, "Hey, I think that there's an opportunity for you to..." Actually it was, I'm sorry, the brand, they went to the brand and said, "You got a not at stock problem in this grocery chain." The guy they talked to said, "Oh, there's no way. I was head of merchandising in Southern California. We have people in that store twice a day checking inventory. Its inventory are stocked twice a week. We are never out of product."Joe:And I'm like, "Oh, really? Here's some video of how much you're out of stock." And it turned out that within a half a day that they stocked, they would sell out and they would be out of stock all day, for two days. The problem we run into is you put process in place and you tell people to follow the process and it may or may not happen. So they look at this and they're like, "Well, there's tremendous value in having this product in stock. It's a driver product for the store." If they're out of stock, and the store cares that they're out of stock. The cost of deploying the solution was probably $30 a month per store, not a huge thing for one of their top 70 driver products, and yet it never scaled.Stephanie:Interesting.Joe:And you feel this thing. There was another one where the labor, they showed this 30% increase in tool sales in a major chain by tracking the staff and shopper engagement and improving that. It was really simple solution. Almost never scales. Now one that we have seen scale, Theatro makes a Voice over IP ear piece set up for staff. So if you go to, I think, well Bass Pro Shops, as an example, who's the one that does jeans and apparel for teams? They all have an ear piece and a radio.Stephanie:Oh, Alister? Gap.Joe:Anyway, it doesn't matter. A lot of retailers use radios, and there's a cost in the radios, and for a parody, they can switch over to this Voice over IP, and this is one where we're seeing people test it, and then in a matter of weeks completely changed all their devices over. The value in that if you look at it, if you're on a radio network, everybody that has an ear piece in their ear hears all the chatter from everybody all day. With this new solution, you can address a message to an individual person. So only the person you want to talk to gets the message. Then there's the ability to ask for stock and deliveries and things like that. So they've also built the ability, some of their customers, if somebody drives up to do a pickup, you order online, pick up at the curb, you don't want there to be a high friction experience. You want to be able to pull up, very quickly have somebody bring your item and leave.Stephanie:So where do you think then the future of retail? What does it look like with all these new... Some of them feel like little tweaks, a radio where you just talk to who you want. To me, some of those things feel little. Are there not enough incentives for these retail stores to change? I know you had mentioned Wall Street maybe beating up on retailers a little bit when it comes to wanting to try new and innovative things. What do you think is holding back retail right now?Joe:I think a big part of it is Wall Street, again, back to that root cause problem. There's a set of retailers that we think of as digital media, and these are brands that started as a purely online brand, and now they're going to open up stores and they realize once they get to about a billion dollars or so in revenue to get to the next level, they've got to go physically open stores or expand their reach.Stephanie:Yeah, like Warby Parkers of the world.Joe:Yeah, exactly. And these digital native retailers, when they come into the physical world, they expect access to the same kind of insights that they've been getting with their online entity. They want to understand how many shoppers are coming in and when? What's the dwell? When people are picking things up and putting them down and not buying them, it's like something in your cart that you took back out. And they come in with a long list of insights that they'd like to be able to get in the retail operation. The question in Intel is how can you help me find people that can bring these solutions or help me deploy these solutions? And when I go to more traditional brick and mortar retail, the conversation is trying to convince them they should have these insights.Joe:So I think that a part of it is the digital natives come from a world of when you're online only, the only insights you have into your shopper is through the data trail they leave behind them. I think if you go to brick and mortar, they're not used to capitalizing and utilizing that data. Talked to one partner recently, they haven't validated this, but they said that the amount of data that Walmart generates in a day would take 26 years to upload to the cloud, being given traditional techniques.Stephanie:Wow.Joe:So there's a tremendous amount of data created in the enterprise of retail every day. And we think with IoT and the cost of compute coming down so much, and the ability to use AI to get insights, you can utilize a lot of this data at the edge without incurring the costs of moving it to the cloud and trying to process it there. I think that if you imagine that you're moving petabytes of data to the cloud, and you're trying to find the needles in the haystack, it's a really big haystack. How about if I just try to sift through the insights real time as they're occurring in the store?Joe:We talked to a major fast food chain who prides themselves on fresh product, and one of their major problems, I won't say what the product is, but they were throwing away 40% of their product to maintain the freshness, and they wanted to have a short wait because they understood freshness was important, and freshness was important for the brand, but they were having a huge product waste problem, and they wanted to use predictive analytics to understand what's happening in the parking lot? What's happening in the drive through and what's my queue look like in the store so they could predict when to put product in the cooker versus cooking it always, and then having it there just in case.Stephanie:Were you guys able to help with that?Joe:Absolutely. That kind of change drives tremendous business cost savings, but also ensures that your product is fresh and that your customers are satisfied in having to wait for product. So when done well, we think these insights deliver not only customer satisfaction, but also tremendous business impact.Stephanie:I mean, that also makes sense for why a lot of the more Legacy Retailers are scooping up all these DTC brands and keeping them separate and learning from them to see like, oh, what are you guys doing over there? And then starting to integrate them into the org to maybe be brought up to speed a bit with how maybe retail should operate from a digital perspective and what are the expectations coming in from someone who's used to that? And how can it get implemented into the org? We had someone on from Kellogg's who said just that. They would acquire different DTC brands, but then keep them off on their own so they didn't get too mixed into the Kellogg's culture because they wanted the DTC brands to stay as their own brand. So they didn't, I guess, turn too corporate if it happens. I don't know.Joe:Maybe not say corporate. I think you don't want to turn them old school.Stephanie:Yeah, exactly.Joe:[crosstalk] We see that same thing, and you mentioned the expectations. One of the ways we explained this consumer expectations, every time you have a better consumer experience on your mobile, better app experience, in the back of your mind, you wonder why every experience isn't that good. I'm old enough that I used to travel where you had to go to the ticket counter to get your boarding passes before you could print it at home, and then they went to kiosk where you could print them at the airport and it was an amazing improvement, and then they went to actually really pretty good apps. So airline apps, you can see if there's a meal on the plane, you can pick your seat. You can do quite a few things, check the status of the incoming flight, et cetera. Airline apps are really pretty good, and I travel a ton and I stay in hotels all the time. Why are the hotel apps worse than the airline apps? Why can't I pick my room?Stephanie:That's true. Why? I'm sure you probably asked them before.Joe:Well, and actually it's interesting. It turns out that the most hotel chains are using a third party service to assign and block rooms.Stephanie:Got it.Joe:So they don't actually have control over that, which is kind of crazy.Joe:And so I think what happens is anytime you have this better experience as a consumer, then it raises the bar on your expectations for every other experience. Cabs were, I've never enjoyed a cab ride. Not once in my life, I think.Stephanie:No, never.Joe:Uber realized early that there was a huge amount of friction in getting ride and people hated cabs. You'd call for a cab, all they would do is throw it on the radio network and maybe a cab responds, maybe not. You didn't have any predictability. When you get to your location, the last thing you want to do is sit there in the cab on the street corner and spend two or three minutes paying the cab driver.Stephanie:Yeah, awkward.Joe:And they understood that there was this huge friction. Well, now that Uber has taken the friction out of getting a ride, consumers see friction elsewhere in their life, and like why do I have this friction? Why is this not as good as an Uber?Stephanie:So what areas do you think are the biggest friction points when it comes to retail locations right now? And what do you wish things were looking like maybe over the next couple of years? What are you guys planning for? Where are you hoping the world will be in like three to five years?Joe:Well, we think that you're going to see a lot more delivery. I think that grocery delivery was very slowly ramping, pick up at the curb or delivery, and with the pandemic, a ton of people jumped in and tried it that probably wouldn't have tried it for a long time. So the adoption curve for that took a real steep spike up, and we don't think that that adoption is going to slow down. So I think that the grocery, and the grocery business is tough. They run really slim margins, and we talked to one major chain and they said, if you pick up at the curb, that they lose $5. And if they deliver, they lose 10 to 15. So the chains have to figure out how they're going to deal with that. There are a bunch of startups that are building essentially dark store technology. So instead of having a retail location with a giant parking lot and a big square footage and employees, they'll end up with a small industrial space with all the same inventory, but some robotics that will pull stuff off the shelf and pack totes.Stephanie:We actually just talked to a company called Wolseley who talked about how they see the future being... They're B2B also for plumbing and HVAC and things like that, but they're like, "I'm not so sure if retail for us anyways is the way to go anymore," instead of just having a small guide shop out front, and then just having a micro fulfillment center or a warehouse in the back, and then they get your stuff and give it to you on the curb. But why do you need to come in for their business anyways and shop around when a lot of times these contractors already know what they want. They don't need to walk around like they would at Home Depot.Joe:It's funny, I was at a home improvement store recently, and I'm waiting in customer service to make a return, and they're on the phone with a customer who very wisely placed an order for like 50 things, probably contractor, but he did an online pickup at the curb order. They were on hold with this guy and they're talking to each other saying, "We don't have the labor to have somebody spend an hour running around the store to pick all these stuff." What a smart contractor? Why not have the home improvement staff eat that labor versus him send somebody? And he said, "Hey, can you please call me once it's all picked?"Stephanie:That's smart. I mean, how can-Joe:And of course they had to say, "Sure." The manager's like, "Yeah, absolutely." So I think what's going to happen is these expectations are going to keep rising from consumers, and the retailers are going to have to figure out how to adapt.Stephanie:Yeah. It seems it's the pricing thing, though. Right now everyone is expecting a curbside delivery or something to be free because it's new and that's the expectation now, but I could see eventually being like, if you want someone to shop for you, just like you would with any of these grocery delivery shopping apps, you're going to have to pay a little bit to have them go and-Joe:But look at it this way. We talked, again, one of these companies building these systems and we talked to a big chain that's testing it. If you go to the normal financial model for a grocery store, big piece of real estate, prime location, huge parking lot, a lot of physical assets tied up. And if you go to a dark store, really cheap, industrial space real estate, so the real estate model's completely different, the staffing model's completely different, and the financials could be such that, and again, I don't know, but it actually might be cheaper to deliver groceries that way. Now, it's a new build add, it's a new approach, but again it's a huge change, but it doesn't necessarily have to mean higher prices for consumers. And I think what's going to happen is some will try to charge more and others will figure out how to go do it in a way that doesn't cost more.Stephanie:That's a good point. I like that. So how do you think about-Joe:It's competitiveness, right?Stephanie:Yeah. Hey, that's economics right there. Someone will figure it out and put the other one out of business possibly, or not. But how are you thinking about new technology right now? I know we were talking a bit about AI and how it's impacting retail and retail workers. What are your thoughts around that or other technologies that are maybe going to disrupt retail?Joe:Well, still really believe a lot in computer vision, and I think one of the things I'm really proud of for Intel is we've always been huge advocates and protectors of consumer privacy, personal privacy. So as a company, our core culture, our philosophy, our lobbying efforts are all around protecting privacy. Our point of view in using cameras in retail, and we've been helping people do this for many years, we only want to do it in a way that's totally anonymous. So it's not like I'm trying to detect Joe when Joe walks in the store. I want to look at the pattern of behavior that this shopper has anonymously, and what have people in the past that had that similar pattern of behavior been interested in, and how might I go send some staff over to do the right thing there. So take me, for example, if we go to the mall and I'm with my wife or daughters, I'm probably hanging out with him and I'm not really shopping. So I'm wandering in the store-Stephanie:You're that personally couch just chilling.Joe:Yeah, or I might be wandering around in the men's department, but I'm kind of killing time, but I'm probably open for somebody to come show me something, because I'm browsing and you could observe that, oh, this person is slowly walking around and looking at stuff. There's other times when I need another white dress shirt for a business trip, and I know exactly which door to park at, that's the shortest distance to the white dress shirts. And I'm walking in a direct line to a section. Computer vision and AI could detect that this shopper's not browsing, don't bother him. Don't send them a discount coupon or don't send him alert to some new item they might be interested in.Stephanie:Do you have retailers right now who are implementing that? Because that sounds awesome and a really good way to personalize to the shoppers coming in. Do you have anyone who's trying anything out yet?Joe:There've been lots of things to experiment and test, a lot of partners building solutions like that. I think the world of privacy right now is way too fragmented. Too many different points of view, too many different state perspectives on it. You've got some places where cameras are banned. You can't use a camera at all. And I think that the governments really need to get their act together and understand how is the data going to be used? How is the technologies? How can it be done in a way to protect privacy? In the implementations, we advocate no data ever leaves the edge, the system. The only thing that ever leaves the system it's account. This kind of shopper did this kind of pattern of behavior. Everything's fully anonymous. Back in the early days, we actually went and talked to governments across Europe where the privacy is even more simple, and every government entity we talked to was totally comfortable with the approach we were advocating.Joe:I think the computer vision that we think is really going to be profound, and it'll be used for mundane things like trying to understand out of stocks or inventory situation. Years ago, I won't say the name of the chain, but there was a study where they're comparing Amazon to a giant big-box retailer. They went to 25 locations of the big-box retailer and bought these 40 items and then they priced it out on Amazon. The headline for the story was Amazon was more expensive than the physical retail location, which was big news at the time because everybody thought Amazon is just winning on price. But the subtitle of the article, the second message was, but 25% of the items on average were out of stock at the brick and mortar retailer.Joe:We happened to be meeting with the executives in that company about a week after that, story came out and their heads were exploding because they thought they had a 5% out of stock problem. And it turns out that they did in terms of it was in the store, but it had a huge congestion of stuff in the back room that wasn't on the shelf yet. And as we dug into it further, we did a lot of work with them using computer vision and whatnot, this is years ago, and it turned out that one of the behaviors they had that they had to try to break is the people stocking the shelves would bring a box of say large size mint shampoo out and they needed to have the small and the large, but they didn't have the small, so they just filled the shelf up in the large.Joe:So when somebody came to look for the small, it's out of stock, and the shelf looked full because they would face it all out so that every front was full of product, but they didn't have all the products on the shelf. It was really because the people stocking the shelves were not following the process and they're being lazy, and that's where we thought to-Stephanie:Use robots then. Robots aren't lazy and they listen to whatever you tell them. So that must just be the way to fix things.Joe:Yeah, maybe. I guess as a tech company maybe that's a good thing for us, but I think that, again, if it's a staple, you just want it to be convenient, and convenient means the fastest, easiest way possible. To me it's like when I run out a catch-up, wouldn't it be amazing if it was just at my door automatically the moment I needed it? Well, we're not there yet, but at some point, somebody's going to figure out how to make my running out of ketchup something that won't happen.Stephanie:Yeah. I thought there were brands or companies working on that to track what's in your refrigerator and then reorder it if it's out. Maybe that never came to fruition and that was more just that [inaudible 00:36:00].Joe:They've been a lot. We actually had some partners who were doing that years ago as well. The challenge ran into it I think is how do you know what's in your fridge? Does the consumer scan all the barcodes? Do you have the discipline to scan a barcode when you run out. These problems certainly aren't easy to solve. We mentioned earlier out of stock, so I'm working at that problem. We worked with probably, I don't know, more than 20 big retailers on trying to see how RFID could help solve their inventory accuracy. Then we would always start with taking one of their stores and we would do a really deep physical inventory. We never found any retailer that had better than 65% of their skews correctly counted.Stephanie:Wow. That's sad.Joe:Then if you want to be able to compete with an online-only retailer who gives free shipping, you probably have to give free shipping, but wouldn't it be ideal if you could deliver all of your stuff from a local store so that you minimize the shipping time, you minimize the shipping cost. But if you don't know what your inventory is, then you take an order assuming you've got really close delivery, but then it's out of stock in the store. We talked to the department store who was really aggressively trying to do this fulfill from store, and they were spending on average 20 minutes per item to find it on the floor.Stephanie:Jeez, if they're taking 20 minutes-Joe:That's [crosstalk 00:37:26], right?Stephanie:Yeah, that's wild.Joe:So they were looking at RFID to try to be able to help with that as well. With RFID, you would know where things are in the store. This is another one too. We talked to, gosh, I'm try to really keep people anonymous here, a head of stores executive who came from a large brand who had a lot of stores, and they deployed RFID in all their products in the branded stores, and they've got their sales go up like 60%.Stephanie:So why wouldn't everyone do RFID? We're talking about Japan's doing it with all their stores now, brands who are implementing it, are taking off when it comes to sales. Why wouldn't people? What's the holdup? Why are more people-Joe:That's the big mystery? So if you can figure this out through your interview, please share.Stephanie:I will have to start asking around. I'm like it seems like a no brainer. Is it hard to get your manufacturers to do it?Joe:I think there's a lot of processes that get touched, is one of the problems. There's your supply chain, there's your distribution center, there's all the staff in the distribution center, there's process changes at the store. So there's a lot of pieces of this that end up getting touched. We talked to one retailer, big retailer, who they made the change on the POS. It was a touchscreen checkout for the staff. They had to do a training class to train people on this change, and it was a two hour training class for like 170,000 employees. And they said it was all extra time. You couldn't do it on the floor. So now you've got 340,000 extra hours of labor to make a simple change on a user interface.Joe:I think when it gets to doing these kinds of changes, what happens when there's a return? What happens when there's a return but the RFID tag is no longer in the item? So there's a lot of things that have to change. I think what's going to happen is we're going to see branded retail do this first because they control the supply chain, and you're going to see some really tremendous results. The example I gave you when they were head of brand and retail at one brand, and then went to another one, the challenge with the second one is they had a lot more suppliers, so they had to manage a lot of factories to supply their stores, even though they were all their own brand. It was still a supply chain challenge.Stephanie:Well, it seems like Whole Foods and Amazon are going to be the first ones that can do it. They've got the ability to, especially with Amazon's operations and processes, and they've got the Whole Foods brand going on. They control all their supply chain.Joe:And the Amazon could decide to spend a gigantic amount of cash modernizing Whole Foods infrastructure and Wall Street wouldn't blink an eye. Kroger could never do that because Wall Street wouldn't let them.Stephanie:That's sad, and also just shows how there's, I don't know. It makes you wonder about how a lot of companies right now aren't going the IPO route, and I get it. I get it hearing and seeing the incentives like that, or lack of incentives of wanting to... They talk about destroy your business to make an even better one and how some of the best companies had to do that, whether it be the Netflix of the worlds. But yeah, it seems like a lot is held back.Joe:What do you mean? Private equity, we're seeing more and more where private equity will come in and the leadership of the company will be in favor of a private equity takeover because it can pull themselves off the Wall Street treadmill for a bit to make these fundamental changes.Stephanie:But isn't it usually a bad sign when PE comes in? Don't most of those companies end up going bankrupt when this happens?Joe:I think there's a couple kinds of private equity. Look at Dell. Not a retail case, but Dell they needed to retool Dell and they needed to not be under the scrutiny of Wall Street for a while, and Dell has done amazing things through the use of private equity. I think if the company is fundamentally unsound, private equity might be vulture capital, where they come in and strip things down to the bones and get rid of it. But I think fundamentally sound business that needs to make changes that aren't really possible to Wall Street, I think this is going to be one of the areas where I think there's going to be a lot of money made where private equity is going to go look at some of these really good retailers that fundamentally have to change. And if wall street doesn't change the model P&L expectations, I think private equity will become a much bigger factor.Stephanie:That's a hot take. I like that. That's very interesting. So if there was some data right now that brands should be collecting at their retail locations, that's not really hard to implement, but they should be doing from the start, what comes to mind? Where you're like, "Right away, you should be collecting at least these five attributes on your customers as they come in and you don't need computer vision. You don't need beacons or RFID, but you should at least have this to be able to give a better experience to your consumer." Anything come to mind?Joe:I think that the thing that is most fundamental, and it's still shocking that all retailers don't do this, and that's just counting your traffic. Not counting it daily, but knowing what's happening with your traffic every minute.Joe:But I think understanding your traffic, that's the most important thing for an online business. What's my traffic? Dwell. How long was this shopper in the store? How long was this shopper on my site? What things did the shopper browse? What was their click path for my online? What was their path in the store? For me, if I were going to leave tech and move into retail, I would start with how does an online retailer excel? And how would I try to get all those same insights for brick and mortar? One of the things to me that... There's a tremendous amount of demand created real time in retail. So we saw one study that says 60% of purchases in stores in the US and Europe are for things people didn't know they were going to buy when they went to the store. So a huge amount of real-time demand. You see something, you like it, and you decide you want to buy it. Well, how disappointing is it when you see something you like and then it's out of stock in your size?Stephanie:That's worse sometimes.Joe:That goes from being a point of excitement. You got a little bit of excitement to buy something and then you're let down. What we would say is rather than having mannequins displaying items that the brand is paying you to show this week. We talked to retail after retailer after two or three days of something on the mannequin that sold out, but they're paid to run it for a week. So they're creating demand for something that's sold out because the contract of the brand said you need to show this item for a week. It's funny. If you talk to a giant apparel brand about this problem, honestly, one of the C-suite executive was like, "Oh my God, that's why stuff's always out of stock in the store." I'm like, "Yeah, you have some flexibility and freedom to the staff to put what they have too much of."Joe:We talked to one major department store chain that made that change a few years ago where they said, "Instead of getting paid to run things on the mannequins, we're going to have our staff every evening look at inventory and whatever they have too much of, put that on the mannequin for the next day." And it's amazing how much they were able to sell through inventory before they had the market down. We would advocate that at the front of the store where you've got posters and prints, maybe it's a department store and it's prom dress season, so you're showing prom dresses on the poster, that isn't really relevant to most of your shoppers. Most girls are not prom dress age. Most moms are not at the age of having daughters that are prom dress age. Most dads don't buy the prom dress.Joe:Put a more simple thing in it. Put a digital sign at the front of the store with a camera that will anonymously look at age and gender. And then if you're really sophisticated, you could say, "Okay, well now I'm going try in inventory system and I have too many of something." Phoenix it was a really dry winter. We have too many raincoats. I see a guy coming in and I've got too many men's raincoats. Throw a men's raincoat on the screen. And even the next step, we can estimate the size of the shopper. So I've got a really big guy coming in, but I'm out of extra large raincoats. Don't show them a raincoat. These subtle things, and it's not like every shopper is going to buy a raincoat, but suddenly putting something that's possibly more relevant on the screen than a prom dress is a great way to use that valuable real estate. That's the kind of thing that an online retailer will do. Like Zulily, they introduce thousands of new products every day.Stephanie:Zulily? Yeah.Joe:We met with them one day at one point, and they said in the morning, early in the morning, they have one landing page, and by 8:00 AM, they have 280 unique landing pages. Then they know what demographic, what bucket you fall in for them as a shopper. So when you go to their landing page at 10 in the morning, you're going to see something that's full of things likely to be relevant to you.Stephanie:We were talking with Lenovo way early on in the show and they were saying they have 85,000 different landing pages going on at any one point. I'm like, "Oh my gosh, how do you keep track of that?" But he's like, "Oh yeah, that's just how you test and know what people want." So it's just very interesting. But I think Zulily though, when they say how many landing pages they have, they are all about talking about being personalized and stuff, but I think a lot of times they just think having a new name isn't being personalized and they count that towards a new landing page. That does not count just saying, "Hi, Stephanie," or, "Hi, Joe."Joe:The way they were explaining to us is if you shop for baby clothes, you often are buying baby clothes, your landing page would have baby clothes on it. If you don't buy baby clothes, your landing page would not have baby clothes.Stephanie:Yeah. That's more personalized. I like that. Very cool.Joe:The key thing here is that this is a journey. I don't think anybody's going to go make all these changes overnight, but there's the ability to start using this information. I think one starting, know your shoppers. It's amazing how many retailers when we talk to them about what are your shopper's pain points? What are your shoppers not happy with? They don't have a good answer, which is really surprising. For me, when we're out trying to define solutions for the market, the first thing we look for is what's a business problem. And if I go into education, what is the problem that educators are having right now that they're worried about? We go into hospitality, what problem do they need help solving? I often tell people at Intel, we have 3,200 PhDs. If we understand your problem, we can figure out how to solve it. And it's amazing how many retailers don't spend time really understanding what friction or what pain points do their shoppers have.Stephanie:Yeah. I think they're going to have to now. I think now with everything that's happened and you had the acceleration of ecommerce, there will be, like you said, new expectations. And yeah, I think the theme is now there's also all these new technology to use and utilize, and maybe implement if it's allowed, but then putting that extra level of human curation on top of it when needed is going to be the way of the future. So use the tech, but also have it curated and have the human feel to it that people are going to miss over this next year, especially with how much we've been at home all by ourselves.Joe:And after people have really radically modified their behavior for a year. A few months it was one thing, but we're coming up on a year where people have had to change pretty fundamentally how they shop and live. How much of that's going to stick permanently? Like I said, I think grocery, and some of those things are going to way more people will be doing that post pandemic than did pre pandemic and they'll stick with it. What else is going to fundamentally change?Stephanie:Yeah, I agree. All right. Well, I know we're running up on time, so I want to shift over to the lightning round brought to you by our friends at Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I'm going to ask you a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready, Joe?Joe:I am ready.Stephanie:All right. What's the nicest thing anyone's ever done for you?Joe:Oh my gosh. Our twin daughters were born three months premature, and the amount of help and leaning in that we had as relatively young and new to Arizona couple was just staggering. Probably 80 families leaned in to help us, which is amazing,Stephanie:Man, I'm going to come to Arizona. That sounds like a nice spot to be. How old are your twins?Joe:They're 30 today. That was a long time ago.Stephanie:Nice. I also have twin boys, and I'm a twin.Joe:That's awesome.Stephanie:What's up next on your reading list?Joe:I'm really actually studying more around AI and frameworks and trying to get a bit smarter around the nerdy geek stuff. So I don't have any grade to casual reading. For me it's more about the tech.Stephanie:Hey, that's good. Well, I was just going to ask you what one thing do you not understand today that you wish you did? Is it AI, or are there other things that you wish you understood?Joe:I grew up as a silicon engineer and so I'm a hardware person and I'm not a software developer, I never have been. And so I'm really trying to understand the worldview of a software developer more than a hardware person. At least I think I know I don't know everything. So it's almost like the first step of the 12 step program, acknowledging that I don't know everything, I'm there.Stephanie:Well then maybe you want to check out the book I'm just starting to read. I think it's called Ask your Developer by the Twilio CEO. I just started reading it.Joe:That sounds good.Stephanie:Yeah, there you go. If you were to have a podcast, what would it be about? And who would your first guest be?Joe:My podcast would be on how technology is going to fundamentally transform shoppers' lives.Stephanie:I love that. Who would your first guest be?Joe:And my first guest, I would actually like to have Bezos.Stephanie:As do I. Let's go get him. Jeff, where are you at?Joe:See if he can help you with that.Stephanie:Yeah, I know. Is Moore's law dead?Joe:Moore's law, if you think about it purely as Silicon, which is when Gordon created that, it was really a silicon construct. We're no longer on that same track, but at a system level in terms of what a system does for you, we're on a similar curve. One of my favorite ways to explain this is, if you hold up your smartphone, the amount of compute in your smartphone 10 years ago was 100X the volume and the same thing's going to be true. So if you look at this amount of compute today is going to be one-100th the size in 10 years. Or you could say, "Hey, what would 100X?" It'd be a giant server room could be in your phone. And so if you think about it, it's not a matter of if I have enough compute to do something, it's a matter of when I have enough compute to do something.Stephanie:Got it.Joe:And I think that's probably to me the magic of Moore's law and some people really get it, and they really understand that it's just a matter of a few years until the compute is cheap enough to do what you want. We're talking about AI for a minute, if we go back 10 years ago at Intel, we had $100,000 computer workstation on every one of our factory tools and these are $50 million tools. Workstation and a huge number of engineers creating algorithms to optimize our manufacturing. So we were doing AI that was very expensive 10 years ago. Very few manufacturing processes can afford that. You jump forward to today and it's simple and cheap and easy to have that amount of compute, and the maturity of this AI computer environment is so much improved that anybody can really deploy what took an army of engineers and very expensive compute 10 years ago.Stephanie:Oh, I love that. I forget what show podcast I was listening to where they were talking about AI and saying a lot of the stuff that we have today, we had access to 10 years ago. We just didn't have the compute power and the ability to do it, but people knew it was coming. And I'd always be interested to hear from those people who could see the vision and be like, "I just need another five or 10 years of acceleration and then my product will work." It's very interesting.Joe:If you imagine the amount of compute that you can afford, whatever that number is, $1000, $100, whatever, but the amount of compute you can afford is going to double in performance every 18 months. Okay, double, you can imagine that, but you don't realize it's 10X in five years and 10X is really hard to comprehend.Stephanie:Yeah, it's hard to extrapolate things like that. Well, I appreciate you answering that question. I was like, "Hmm, I know Joe will have a good answer for this one, even though it's very maybe off of ecommerce." But Joe, thank you so much for coming on the show. Where can people find out more about you and your work?Joe:Well, I work for Intel, obviously. We do have a retail landing page at Intel. We actually don't sell anything to retailers. All of our work is done enabling suppliers to retail to build better solutions, and I try to spend all my time, if possible, talking to retailers to better understand the business problems they have so I can help guide my partners in building better solutions.Stephanie:Cool. Sounds good. Well, people will go and find you if they have any questions I'm sure then. Thanks so much.Joe:Thanks, Stephanie.

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PTSF 43

Psychedelics Today

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 22, 2021 33:40

In today’s Solidarity Fridays episode, Kyle and Joe cover a crazy story about a man who injected psilocybin tea, only to end up having fungi grow in his blood and put him into organ failure. They question the logistics of this and wonder if it’s ever happened before, but Joe has since found an article reporting that this did happen back in 1985. So as crazy as it seems, it is absolutely possible. Be careful out there, folks. They then talk about how the current psychedelic rush is diluting the existing culture, and how we should react to it, comparing it to "Eternal September," the Usenet term for when AOL started mailing out internet disks to millions, providing access to Usenet, and how that affected the long-established and tight-knit Usenet community. This leads to a discussion of what tends to happen in the black market when cannabis is legalized, what lawyers will likely be doing in this space, why outlaw behavior is so attractive to people, and how "plant medicines" is too broad of a term to be used for psychedelics. They also talk about Dr. Carl Hart's new book, Drug Use for Grown-Ups: Chasing Liberty in the Land of Fear (which you can win from Psychedelics Today), and let us know that seats are already selling quickly for the next round of Navigating Psychedelics for Clinicians and Therapists, which begins on March 11th. Curious about what you're missing? Head to the page and view the growing collection of glowing testimonials to find out! Notable Quotes “Say you have a small music club and you’re used to 20 people coming, or a social club of some kind, and all of a sudden, 20 people get added every day. At a certain point, culture can’t really persist. That original culture’s going to be so diluted that it’s not necessarily a substantial part of the thing anymore. And I was thinking about this in terms of psychedelics, because there’s so much money coming in. If you’ve come in because of Michael Pollan, you’re part of this new wave. There’s some resistance to it- we see a lot of hate directed at Michael Pollan [and] a lot of these businesses. And I kind of get it- the resentment towards newcomers, but how do we balance that? How do we not turn into vicious defenders of our culture, as opposed to emissaries pushing our values in a nice, positive way? ...There’s plenty of room for cultural dissemination. It’s just: how do we do it skillfully without becoming the thing we don’t want to become?” -Joe“There’s this whole tradition that has nothing to do with psychedelics, necessarily, and it’s quite multicultural. Plants were largely medicine for huge portions of our history- probably the majority of our history as a species. And now, in the last 60 years or whenever this whole trend started, people say ‘plant medicines’ and they really mean psychedelics, but they don’t want to sully their perception of their preferred plant allies by saying ‘psychedelic.’ They want to differentiate themselves because ‘those LSD users and those heroin users are dirty. But we’re clean.’ ...Carl Hart pointed out that calling yourself a psychonaut or any of these terms that we use in the psychedelic world- it’s sort of mental gymnastics that we use to justify our drug use and vilify other people for their drug use.” -Joe Links Insider.com: A man injected himself with 'magic' mushrooms and the fungi grew in his blood, which put him into organ failure Annals of Emergency Medicine: Intravenous mushroom poisoning Wikipedia.org: Eternal September Netflix: “Murder Mountain” Drug Use for Grown-Ups: Chasing Liberty in the Land of Fear, by Dr. Carl L. Hart Win a copy of Drug Use for Grown-Ups from Psychedelics Today! Doubleblindmag.com: Somerville, Massachusetts Decriminalizes Naturally Occurring Psychedelics Support the show! Patreon Leave us a review on Facebook or iTunes Share us with your friends Join our Facebook group - Psychedelics Today group – Find the others and create community. Navigating Psychedelics

fear head land curious therapists wikipedia plants lsd aol clinicians grown ups drug use somerville michael pollan annals carl hart usenet psychedelics today eternal september joe there carl l hart navigating psychedelics

Wonder — VIEW Series #2

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 4, 2020 52:40

Being in wonder helps you understand the value of the right question and If you're in wonder, it's a constant exploration. Questioning the assumptions that are in your mind is one of the quickest ways to get to wonder, where curiosity and awe are being experienced together."It's really a point of view of looking at the world. Follow your wonder. It´s a trail. Just follow it in the conversation about the other person, about yourself. In the conversation, just follow it."Welcome to the Art of Accomplishment, where we explore how deepening connection with ourselves and others leads to creating the life we want with enjoyment and ease.My name is Brett Kistler. I am an adventurer, entrepreneur and a self exploration enthusiast. I am here with my co-host, Joe Hudson. Joe is a business coach who has spent decades working with some of the world´s top executives and teams developing a unique model of human patterns that underpin how we operate with ourselves, each other and the world. A good entry point into this model is a mindset called VIEW, vulnerability, impartiality, empathy and wonder. Through understanding and cultivation we learn to easefully drop into the VIEW state of mind, deepening self awareness and increasing our connection with the world around us. To learn more about this podcast or courses, visit artofaccomplishment.comBrett: Most of us spend a lot of our time feeling a subtle pressure to know things, to understand our world so that we can make predictions, feel safe, and be seen as knowledgeable, but the moment we think we know everything is also the moment we stop learning. What if there's always more to the story than we can ever know? How might living our lives from a consistent place of wonder give us more actionable information and opportunities, than clinging to what we think we know? This is the practice of wonder, the W in VIEW. Joe, can you tell me what you mean by wonder?Joe: Yes, wonder is, there's a lot of ways to describe it, but one of the ways to describe it is to say we've all felt it before. We all know that like [exhales]. Maybe some of us haven't felt it since we were kids, but that's something that we all know. What it is, it's like curiosity without looking for an answer, because when you're looking for an answer, you can just feel in your system, that your system constricts a little bit. If you're just like, "Oh my gosh, what is happening here?" and there's no pressure to find an answer. An answer may come, but there's no pressure. Then the physical state remains expansive.The other way to think of it is, it's like curiosity and awe put together. The thing about awe, the reason I use that word in particular is, because if you're awestruck by something, you have a recognition that it's out of your control. It's something that's beyond you, beyond your ability to maybe even recognize in that moment. There's only a few things in the way that the human psyche works that creates that. Gratitude is another one, that creates that feeling of there's something greater. Acknowledging that you need things is another, because just all these things are outside of your control often.Most of the time, we don't say gratitude, like, "I'm really grateful that I kicked ass." We might occasionally, but most of the time, we're grateful for things that are beyond us, and that's the thing about wonder. It has awe, because we acknowledge that there's something beyond our ability to even maybe recognize.That's another way of thinking of it, but the other thing that's particularly important to VIEW conversations is, that you're in the question. There was a time in my life when this question arose and it was, “What am I?”, was basically the question. I was in that question for 10 years, and it wasn't about trying to answer the question. It was about being in the question.I could come up with answers, but every answer was based on some context. I could say I am my body, but then I would be in wonder for a while, and I'm like, "Well, which part of my body? If I cut my body in half, which part of my body is me?" To realize that even that isn't me, what am I? The power of that was being in the question. It wasn't ever finding the answer to the question. That's another way to look at wonder is that you're in the question.Brett: Right. It's like the moment you come up with an answer, it's like the search stops, but if you stay in the question, there's always opportunity for some other aspect to come in, like some other aspect of yourself to be seen.Joe: Exactly. Yes, that's beautifully put. Yes.Brett: How does cultivating a persistent state of wonder benefit us? What does this do for us?Joe: There are so many ways in which it does. If you just think about those times that you're awestruck, imagine a life when you're awestruck all the time, and just imagine living a life where that is 10%, 20% more of your life, just even 10% or 20% more awestruck by life. There's this thought process that people share about miracles and that actually we're experiencing miracles all the time, but we're so used to them or we can describe enough of them.We can describe the sun, for instance. You can just be awestruck by the sun. You can answer forever how it got formed maybe and how it's working, or you see it every day so there's nothing to be awestruck about, but if you really just contemplate like, "Why? Why sun? Why universe? Why cosmos?" Goodness, how did it-- Yes, all this stuff happened, but how did it actually come to pass that we were circling the sun? It's just awe-inspiring and it leads you to places that you can't get to any other way.I was listening to, out of all people, recently the head of Amazon, and he talked about the beginning of his day, he would just wander. He just wanders in his mind and in the space, that's part of what he does because there's a harvest from wandering or from being in wonder and just exploring without looking for a place to land. There's a harvest that comes from that, because you discover all sorts of cool stuff.This applies in business and in relationships. Oftentimes, when people are in relationships, one of the things that you see is that everybody thinks they know everybody. [laughs] They categorize everybody and then the relationship gets dull, otherwise, if you're in wonder, it's a constant exploration. Who I am, when I married my wife, is very different than who I am today, and there's constantly an evolution to be discovered in my wife and for her to discover in me. That keeps our relationship fresh, keeps a business fresh in the exact same way.It's nice in the body to be in wonder. It just feels really good. It's quite an enjoyable thing. Another thing that it does is, it's quite an antidote to fear. If you, say, do this experiment, close your eyes and imagine you are running from a tiger. The tiger is coming and it's getting close. You can hear the footsteps, you can hear its breath. It's panting to catch you, and you're running as fast as you can and you don't really think there's any way out. You know it's about to come and pounce and now wonder, "How much does that tiger weigh?"You can't hold the fear if you're in wonder and you can't be in wonder, particularly, if you're holding the fear. To reflect on what you are in wonder about immediately does something to the fear, the more subtle fears that may be running through you. That's another one.Brett: It's like the fear itself is something that optimizes us to produce a fast result and a fast output but not to process more deeply. I think that's a good thing sometimes. I imagine, if we walk around being constantly awestruck by the sun and the universe, that must have its drawbacks. There are people who do that constantly and they're disconnected from the world. They're not taking any action.Joe: One more thing before we go there. One more thing is just to say, that the other thing that it benefits you being in wonder is that it-- In today's world, it's really not the answer. In the age of Google, anybody can find an answer. It's really the right question, are you asking the right question? Being in wonder helps you ask the right questions. One person can spend their life building Google and another person can spend their life building the local tire shop, and they can both work just as hard as each other. It's just a different question that they're living in.Or one person can ask, "What's the phone that everybody will use?" Another person will ask the question, "What's the phone that's easy to use?" You're going to get two different phones. Being in wonder really helps you understand the value of the right questions, is the last one.Brett: Right, it can help you break out of the limited context of your previous question into a bigger question.Joe: Yes.Brett: Which brings you back to that question that I just had of if we're constantly breaking out of the limited question into the biggest question of why sun, why universe, how do we ground ourselves in that? Is there a going too far with this wonder thing?Joe: I don't know anybody who can actually be in a perpetual state of wonder. I've never seen that. There's a way to have a pretty consistent awestruck experience of the world. It's actually interesting. I was recently listening to all these people who'd lived over 100 years, and I've actually met a couple as well. There is something that they all have in common, is that they all have this just like, "Isn't it wonderful?" Where they're talking about, they eat this food and it was just so amazing or they were doing little things, but it was these little things in life that just created so much awe and joy and wonder in them.Yet they were 100 years old or more, and they had friends and they had family and they had careers that they've lived through, but that was the thing that they all had in common. It's just like kids are the same way. They have this amazing wonder in their worlds, and they've learned incredibly quickly. If you kill it completely, you can get a task done, but you might not get the right task done. Yes, there's a place where wonder ebbs and flows. It's really about your access to it in the moment.I think that there is this illusion of this person who's constantly disassociated from life and they're in this constant state of wonder. My experience of those people is that they're not actually in a constant state of wonder. It's good for books and stuff, but what they actually are is, they're in a constant state of dissociation where whatever is happening in real life is very difficult for them. Their mode of being able to handle that isn't to fight, it's to disassociate. I don't see people who are in a deep state of wonder too much. I just don't. I haven't seen it, but I can expect if you are in a state of wonder so much that you have stopped doing stuff, that obviously would go too far. One of the things that wonder does, interestingly, is it propels you to do stuff. "I'm really curious. How does this work?", propels you to do stuff. Oh, wow, what would happen if I had this different kind of business or if I changed my business in this way, or if I looked at my wife this way, or if I looked at my best friend this way? It propels you to change the way you're doing stuff, run experiments, and learn. When I see people in that deep level of curiosity, then there's a lot of movement in their life. Now, if there's other things that are happening that might stop them from taking action, that would be more things like depression or being lost in their head all the time in their thought, repressed anger, things like that, that would be a stuck feeling. I don't know a lot of people who have that stuck feeling or anybody who has that stuck feeling who also has a lot of wonder. Because let's say, you're depressed and you have a ton of wonder, what happens? You're like, “Huh, what's making me depressed? What is depressed exactly?”I don't mean what is-- like what part of me, what's the me that's depressed. What's the me, that can see through, that can see I'm depressed? How does that work?Brett: How is this feeling of depression being in-- like in my body?Joe: Right, and as you start asking those questions, that depression starts to alleviate, because the depression is being created mostly because of a critical voice in the head that there's no curiosity about. You can just turn that curiosity right to the critical voice in the head and things will change pretty quickly, if you can consistently have that state of wonder about the voice in your head, not trying to solve it, but just to be in awe of like, “Whoa, what is this thing constantly managing me?” [laughs] “What gives it the right? What makes it thinks it's right? What makes it think it's good at its job, when it's created complete stagnation in my system? What makes it think it's good at its job, if it's still having to manage me over the same shit 10 years later, like what is happening here? That state of awe and wonder is going to shift a lot. It's going to create-- you can just feel how that creates movement. I've never really seen people stop doing-- Obviously, if you're in a state of wonder so much that you are like can't [chuckles] you can't complete a sentence, because you're so in awe of the language, that's going to get problematic. I've just never seen it.Brett: The example of the old people reminds me of something I learned recently about dementia, where there are people who die, who have a normal life and are vibrant throughout their older years, their later years, and then they die and their brain is autopsied, and they have the brain of somebody who has dementia but they didn't have it. The difference between the people who don't actually present it psychologically, are that they have-- they're constantly learning. They're constantly in wonder so they're constantly rewiring.Even though the wiring is getting tangled, it's developing new pathways all the time versus living in the same pathways that are just breaking down over time and then becoming less and less efficient.Joe: Wow. I didn't know that, that's beautiful. You can start to feel it in your 40s and definitely in your 50s, this desire to stay in the neuropathways, to stay in the routine of life, and it just starts to take the joy out of life, and like look at how few people you see in their 70s who are living a joyful life, that exuberant life. Their lives are great often when they're in their 70s, outside of potentially some physical pain there. They're retired, at least in America. They're retired and they have a family and they-- but there's just no wonder in it.Brett: What happens to us, when we shut that wonder down? Like in the moment, let's say in a conversation or a business negotiation where, for example, we're worried about getting it right or being perfectly understood and so we shut down the wonder. What happens then? More simply, I guess the question is what is the opposite of wonder?Joe: [chuckles] The opposite of wonder is knowing, or wanting to be maybe seen as knowing since knowing is really impossible on one level of looking at it. The way I would say it is, I see this all the time, especially when I was a venture capitalist. I saw this all the time, which was, people would come to me and they would make their pitch. People would come to me and they'd make their pitch and the standard way of thinking about it was, that they were going to come and impress me with their knowledge and show me that they had a really good business idea.Then I would know that they have a really good business idea and then I would give them money. That would be the kind of the standard way that they would come to the meeting, which is weird, because as a venture capitalist, I probably should know more about it than they do, because I'm in 10 businesses or at least the same amount as they do. They're coming in with this knowing, trying to share the knowing and what basically happens is, if I agree with them, I will fund it, and if I don't agree with them, I won't fund it, which is a very limited potential to fund it.There's just like this very skinny chance, that we're going to agree, but if they come in with wonder, and I had this happen once. I remember I was so blown away by-- it was a great company. It was very successful. The CEO came in to raise the money and he was like, “Okay, what do you need to see to fund? What are the boxes that you need to check off?”I immediately told him, because that would save me a shit ton of time, instead of having to listen to 10 slides on the total addressable market and what the market was like, as if I like hadn't done that research or whatever. Then he just went through and went through exactly what I needed to hear. He started in a place of wonder instead of a place of knowing. He knew that I would be more attracted to him in a learning journey than I would in a being told what is right and what is wrong.If you just think about that, like, you look at your friends who know what's right and wrong and like how enjoyable is it to be around them? I don't know how many companies I've been in where I see somebody and they're like, that's the problem person. I'm like, okay. Then you can meet the problem person. The problem person thinks they know everything. That's the problem person. They think they're right about everything. There is no wonder in their system.Brett: They're also probably pointing at a lot of problem people because they know it.Joe: Yes, that's right. That's right. They're not in a learning journey with anybody. Nobody wants to be that. What people want to be is in a learning journey with each other. We like to have someone who knows some stuff, yes, it's great. People are listening to this podcast right now hopefully with the idea that I might know something, but my job is to go on learning journeys with people. My job is to ask them what they know. Is to ask open-ended questions to them. My job is to assume that they know the best step that's there for them in a way that I couldn't.How could I know that? I don't know their whole history. I don't know everything that happened to them. It doesn't matter if I had the wisdom of every human being in the world, except for them, they still know more than I do about what they're supposed to do next. If you're in a state of knowing and trying to convince people of your knowing, that's the opposite. [chuckles]Then being attached to your knowing, which is utterly ridiculous on so many levels, because knowing is only relevant based on context. Meaning, let's say, I know it's bad to lie. That's a context that I'm assuming. I'm assuming that we're all in the same context of whatever it might be, say, suburban living, but if I'm in the context of hiding people from an authoritarian government who wants to kill them, that's a different context. At least at that point, lying is more of a question. For me, it wouldn't be a question. It would be, yes, I would lie to the authoritarian government, but there'd be more of a question about the right and wrongness of it.Everybody has their own context. To think you know something is to not only assume that you know the right answer, but it's also to assume that you know the context of the person that you're going around with. It's also to assume that they don't have some wisdom in what they're saying, which is ridiculous. We can't be that. It's far better to be in wonder, and then you're in a journey with the people. You're both learning and it's like your mutual freedom instead of you're telling them something.Brett: Right. So how do you stop a shutdown of wonder from happening, this collapse into knowing? Wonder seems like it might be a pretty fragile thing sometimes, even being afraid of not being in enough wonder, telling myself, "Okay, now I'm going to walk around the world and wonder all the time-- Oh, goddammit I'm not doing it." Even that fear might be enough to cause us to start closing down. How do you keep the wonder channel open?Joe: It's a great question. It's far more of an undoing, than it is doing. Effort is one of the things that makes wonder more difficult, but the trick is when I say it's an undoing, if I say, “Okay, now I have to go and do wonder and I have to be in a wonder state of mind”, that immediately makes it harder to be in a wonder state of mind. But there's no moment where, if you look, there's not something you're curious about. Just keep it really simple all you have to-- just look around your room right now. There's something that's wondrous.You don't know even how the bedsheets were made. You don't know who made them. You don't know if the company still exists. You don't know about the detergents, and if you happen to be one of those people who knows exactly that, then you don't know about the paint. There's never a moment, especially when you're with somebody else, or when you're in nature when there isn't this opportunity for awe. To try to get there takes you away, but to just recognize that there's something in you, and if you see this with kids, they're just in a state of wonder all the time.I remember this psychological study of when children are most likely to smile when they're infants, and it's not when they're about to be fed, which is what they thought, and they did this by facial positions of what a kid would see before feeding. It's when they're being engaged, where there's learning happening. Young kids just love to learn until it gets kicked out of them by a parent or a teacher or something like that. Curiosity is our nature. It's absolutely our nature, which means basically being in wonder and investigating, it's in our nature.All you have to do is undo everything that's taking you away from your nature. That's it. It's simple. It's just like, what is wonderful about this? What am I awestruck about? What am I curious about in a way that I don't need to find an answer? Just what's-- what am I going to say next? [chuckles]Brett: What are some examples or steps or pointers that we could bring from this podcast into our lives to cultivate a deeper sense of wonder. Joe: Yes, practice is good. It's you're asking yourself, what am I in wonder about right now? If you just do that 10 times a day, that's a pretty tremendous way to get there. It's really a point of view of looking at the world. If you think about a little kid, and he's picking up a frog for the first time and how he looks, or she looks at that frog, that's the way you can look at life. That's the way you can look at your business.If you were to, say just for a second, if you had two people who were looking at a business and both of them have the same level of knowledge, let's say, and one of them was looking at it with immense wonder. One of them was looking at it with like, "I'm trying to solve the problem." What do you think is going to happen with those two people? How do you inspire that in yourself, it's just a question of intention. It's not a question of doing. It's not a question of effort. It's just a question of getting in touch with that part. If you ever are not there, and you can't find your way there, then I really suggest looking at the context of something or questioning the assumption of something.Brett: What do you mean by that?Joe: Questioning the assumption is a great way to also get out of partiality and to become impartial as well. It means that if I say to you, "Life is challenging, because I don't have enough work," there's so many assumptions in that. There's an assumption that it's challenging not to have enough work. There's an assumption that I don't have enough work. There's an assumption that I should have more work. All of those things, instead, there could be other assumptions. There could be assumptions like, "Oh wow, I have free time to start my own business." I could say, "There's something here that's asking me-- an opportunity here to take my marketing to the next level."There's all sorts of assumptions that one can make about having less work one week, then say, the next week or one year, say to the next year. Questioning the assumption that's in your mind is one of the quickest ways to get to wonder, or in somebody else's mind is one of the quickest ways, and then also, to question the context, right? I don't have enough work in America is very different than I don't have enough work in Africa, which is very different than I don't have enough work in Iceland. They're different experiences, and so what's happening there? What makes you think your truth is truth everywhere or even true for you right now, because not having enough work for me is priceless? It's like that free time is lovely.Brett: With every tool like this, there's always ways that they can be used in a way that's performative or inauthentic. I've definitely found myself in a number of conversations where it felt like the other person was pretending to be interested in me as if they were acting out of some curiosity script. This kind of interaction feels really creepy and probing. How do we cultivate an authentic state of wonder without creeping people out as we practice and try to be in wonder?Joe: You're touching on some things that make-- like if wonder gets a little tilted, it can become a strategy, and as soon as it becomes a strategy, it starts to feel creepy. I know people who are always asking questions, but that's just to avoid any kind of intimacy about themselves. I know people who are asking questions, because it's their way of trying to create intimacy. But if you're trying to create intimacy, it's not intimacy.Yes, I see that happen a lot, and the answer is, simply, is don't be inauthentic. The most simple answer is don't use this as the strategy, have wonder for the sake of wonder for the gifts that it brings, for the feelings and sensations in your body that it creates, that awe creates and be there. It's far more enjoyable than to be strategic about it or to try to avoid intimacy. Those are both far more painful states of existence to be in. That's the easiest way to say it.Brett: I guess being strategic about it implies that there's a certain outcome that you're trying to get--Joe: That's right.Brett: --which is a certain kind of knowing.Joe: Right, an outcome through defending yourself. If people are creeped out, if you really want to get into wonder, and if you notice that you're asking questions and they start resisting, you can just be in wonder about that. You can be like, "Whoa, what's making you feel creeped out right now?" [laughs] They might say, "I feel like I'm being probed. I feel like I'm under investigation." Then you can be vulnerable or correct or say, "Oh wow. What do you want to ask me?"You can also just apologize and say, "I'm sorry, I was asking you questions as a way to avoid myself or as an experiment." Or whatever your ulterior motive was. The whole thing is in a frame of mind, and that's when we get back to that thing, VIEW is a state of mind. If it starts becoming a technique, it'll just cease to work. At least most of the time.Brett: In a lot of conversations, the context of the conversation is built around us being looked at as an expert or the holder of knowledge. This can happen often in work like in consulting or sales or speaking, or your role in this podcast, for instance. How do you stay in wonder when you are or your ideas are themselves the topic of discussion are in the spotlight and you're expected to be delivering information rather than consuming it?Joe: [laughs] I gave a talk I think three times, and the very beginning of my talk I was like, "I have no idea what I'm about to say." I purposely got here on this stage, without preparation on purpose.The only thing I had in my mind was to not be prepared when I came on the stage, because I want to talk about what life is like in this state of just being in this moment and seeing what happens, seeing what comes out. Oftentimes, during all these podcasts, I am curious about what's going to come out of my mouth, and I'm in wonder of what does come out of my mouth often. Almost as similarly, which is ridiculous, this actually might [laughs] make everybody lose a little faith, people will tell me, they'll be like, "Oh, this thing happened on your podcast. That was so great." I'm like, "Really, I said that?" [laughs] I have no recollection of it. Sometimes I'm quite impressed with what I say, and sometimes I'm like, "Oh, that's a little off."To me, being in the question with somebody is far more valuable. When I think about the idea of, let's say, you watch a normal Ted Talk where there's somebody who's really there explaining some piece of knowledge, and it's absolutely, totally fascinating about it. It's a wonderful thing to listen to. It's made even more wonderful if you see their own awe of the situation, if you see that they're still in the question. That someplace in there, there's a question that they're still living in. Then you really want to be there with them.Brett: It's like they're inviting you into the question with them and showing you a map of what they've seen so far.Joe: Yes, that's exactly right. That's a whole different way than like, "Hey, I got through my Ted talk. I'm going to tell you what's what, and I'm going to tell you the conclusion to have, I'm going to tell you there's no more questions left." You just see people are more likely to bristle unless they happen to agree with this person, or they've never thought about it before. The other thing that happens when you're in that state of wonder, as the expert, as the knower, it happens to me all the time, you've witnessed this, is people are like, "I don't agree with you." I'll be like, "Yes, I don't agree with me entirely either," because as soon as I switch the context, I can see, "Oh, yes. That's not true."I can be speaking one moment about freedom of choice, that there's choice. That's a very useful thought for somebody who feels stuck and feels like they are a victim of things. I'll talk all about choice and then somebody can say, "Man, there's no choice. It's all grace." I'll be like, "Yes, totally. It's so true." I can't even decide what to think. I can't even decide to stop thinking entirely or forever. Yes, I don't have control over that. If I don't even have control over the most basic things, then how can I have control over everything else? I don't have any choice.If you're in that state of wonder, there's no personal attachment to the knowledge, and there's the ability to see the other sides of it, and to start understanding the context. That's where a tremendous amount of freedom is, because most of our pain comes from defending an idea.Brett: That wonder about our choice or our internal experience is interesting. Each of these tools brings its own interesting twist when we direct them inward. What happens when we have wonder for ourselves and for our experience?Joe: It's really sweet. It's like a little slice of heaven to be in a state of wonder about your internal experience. There was a time in meditation for a while where all I did was focus on the unknown. I would just be silent with my eyes closed, and I would just focus on what I didn't know. It's a really cool experience if you want to make a chance for yourself to do that. It's so sweet. It's also sweet, because all the things that you tell yourself, that inner critic, just it starts to lose all of its grip, if you're able to focus on the wonder.When your voice says, "You got to eat less, you have to work out more, whatever, you need to have a nicer butt," that is met with wonder, "Well, what's the nicer butt going to get me?" They're like, "Then I'll have somebody maybe who loves me for my butt." If I look in the world, the people with the nicest butts, do they have the life I want? What's happening here? There's so much freedom.Brett: People could be in an entirely different context there. It's like, "Well, if I have a nice butt, then I'm going to get a lot of attention. I don't want the attention. I don't want a bunch of creepy guys on me."Joe: Exactly, or creepy girls.Brett: Or girls. I don't know why I use that from the other.[laughter]Joe: It's quite a lovely existence to be in wonder about yourself. It's far more neat instead of being like, "This is how I am, and this is how I need to change." Be like, "I wonder what I'm going to do next. I wonder what's making me do this again."Brett: What's your favorite example of a moment when bringing a little wonder to the moment changed everything for you?Joe: I had an example recently, [chuckles] last night, [chuckles] we've left California because of the fires and the smoke. We went to Arizona, and we took our girls out to a stunning lake. When we were driving back, there was this steakhouse and there were political signs that were in contrast with my daughter's political beliefs. My daughters are young, but societally right now, there is a lot of fire over the political system. A lot of people believe and have really strongly. My girls have adopted some of that stuff. I see these signs on a restaurant, which is pretty bold in America to potentially say no to half of your clientele because you're so enamored of a political candidate.My daughters didn't like this political candidate. I was like, "Okay, we're going to go eat there. Let's go eat." One was scared and one was like, "No. I don't want to deal with these people." I was saying, "Well, how is that any different than racism? If what you think they're doing is ignorant, we're not in control of our own ignorance, just as much as we're not in control of our own race. What makes it okay to just not even want to be around?" That was the beginning of the wonder.We have this new puppy. All of a sudden, some of the people around us were loud and boisterous. It was a desert bar steakhouse thing. They made the kids even more anxious for a while. Then all of a sudden, the dog got into-- There's awes, and there's this connection, then the waiter was super nice, and there was just, all of a sudden, it was just like we were humans together again.As we were driving home, I heard both of my daughters, interestingly, see some of the wisdom on the other side of the political argument. To be able to see like, "Oh, I see how they would view things this way, given this circumstance, given this thing." Not that they agreed with it or disagreed with it anymore, but it was just like their heart opened up because they were in wonder about this whole situation.It was an incredibly beautiful thing to watch. I think that that's the way it is all the time. We come across all-knowing, and we don't want it to be messed with, because we don't want that feeling of uncertainty. It's amazing what wonder does. Uncertainty doesn't matter in wonder. It's quite lovely.Brett: That's beautiful. How can we expect our lives to change as we deepen our wonder?Joe: More joy, more awe, quicker progress, deeper relationships. It changes stuckness, it opens up stuckness, more intimacy, [laughs] shit like that. All those cool and groovy things, man. It's just life is better. We're more capable. We're more competent. You can be certain and still be in wonder. I think that's the complication that people have a hard time understanding.I know in my business what the next step is. I don't know that it's going to be the right step. I don't know that a better next step isn't going to show up a second from now. It's not like I'm not a wonder of, "Well, how is this the best step?" I have a certainty over my next step. I know the next thing that I'm called to do.When I'm talking to somebody, I might be completely baffled by what's coming out of my mouth, which is a constant state of being, but I know that whatever comes out is the thing that's supposed to be coming out. I'm not questioning myself. I'm not like, "Is that the right thing? How did that?" There's a knowing of my truth. There's a knowing of a process that works.If somebody comes up with something else, I can totally be like, "Oh, what am I missing? What's happening here? What am I not seeing?" It doesn't stop me from being certain, but it stops me from thinking that I know. That's what it stops me from. I don't think that I know. I just know what the right next step is for me, or for what I'm here to do. I only know that that's the right next step. For instance, if I'm taking the right next step, it might be just to find out how bad [chuckles] I've done it, or how wrong it is, or how messed up that idea was. It might be to learn. It might not be to succeed. It might be that I take that step only to find out, "Oh, I need to go back the other way."There's a certainty that I'm living with that is not at all in conflict with wonder. I think that's something that people get confused about in wonder.Brett: I think that relates back to the dissociation version of not really in wonder. That story earlier in the episode.Joe: Yes, that's right. I just say being in wonder doesn't mean that you're not clear on the actions that you're taking. It's not like you're not clear on like, "From my experience, this is the thing to do." Then you're totally open that something might stand against it this time.Brett: You're in the clarity, but also ready to update what you think the next step is by constantly surveying for new information.Joe: Yes, exactly. It's the same way that mice move. Mice and other small mammals are desperately curious animals, but then it doesn't make them hesitate. They're going about their day, they're sticking to the sides of the wall, collecting seeds, making decisions about left or right every two seconds with clarity, and yet, they have this deep level of, "What's this? How do I-- Can I get through here? What's happening?"Brett: Unless they're traumatized and freeze up in fear, which what we do sometimes.Joe: [chuckles] Exactly. Yes, you can traumatize animals too.Brett: Let's tie all of this back into VIEW, like a VIEW conversation. Can you summarize some pointers that we could use to bring more wonder into our view conversations?Joe: The most important thing is just to follow your wonder. It's a trail. You just follow it in the conversation about the other person, about yourself in the conversation, just follow it. If you're going to have to hold an agenda, if you're going to be partial about anything, be partial about staying in wonder. That's the thing. You're treating it, like I said, like a kid holding a frog or a lizard for the first time.Also, just seek what you don't know. Oftentimes, you'll be presented with data from a person, "My mother did this, my father did this. This is how it's affecting me." What is it then to say, "What do I not know?" I just got told all this information. There's a thought process. The first thing I'm supposed to do is, take all this information and then spit out a good question. What if the thing you're supposed to do is first, find out all the things you don't know, because often if someone tells you the story, they're telling you all the things that they know. There's no new information, but if you start focusing on what you don't know, it might also be stuff that they don't know. That's another thing that you can do.Then as we talked about questioning the context and the assumptions, those are all ways to be in wonder, but more importantly, it's to be in awe of what's happening for that person. It might be, you have this friend, and you have a friend who's constantly telling you about how the boyfriend isn't working. You're just like, "Stop talking to me about this." We all have this friend, or have had this friend at some point in our life, who is in their loop, and then they bring us into it with a conversation every week or so. What are you in wonder about there? What's the thing that you don't know? What's the thing that you have just like how, how, how? Even maybe the question is, "How do you keep doing this? What is it that's working for you here that keeps you in this relationship?" There's something there always. That's where you can go. It's a lot easier to find if you're not trying to lead them anywhere, because then it's just a natural thing that arises in you.Brett: All right. Let's close this episode a little bit differently. I'd love for you to tell me about your most spectacular, epic fail, wonder face plant, where just a little more wonder could have gone a long way but you just didn't have it.Joe: [laughs] All good. Let's see. The biggest one. In college, I had the honor of being kicked out of my first college. Beyond that, I had the honor of having a 3.95 grade point average and getting kicked out of my college at the same time. That could only be done if I wasn't knowing instead [chuckles] of wonder.The way it worked was I was, because of my upbringing, rebellion was really the thing for me. That was my caricature. I went to college. They had all these rules. It was the beginning of a stronger morality in college. The college decided that there was going to be some moral education as well. I really didn't like it. I didn't like it at all. I rebelled against it. That was my thing. I was being a punk. There's no doubt about it.People would come in and put signs in the dorm, and it would block the windows. The signs would be Christian Fellowship or whatever those things were. I would just take down the signs like, "Hey, if you can just cover my windows, I can just uncover my windows." The people of power in the room or whatever, of a parent power in the room said, "What are we going to do about this?" I'm like, "I pay rent. I'm going to keep on taking the signs down." [chuckles] That was my attitude. I was right in my mind. I couldn't see their context. I was right. I was like, "You don't have the right to do this."There were other things where the different things-- I got busted once drinking in my room. There's people who got busted smoking pot 10 times and nothing ever happened, but I got busted once. I was on a roof once, not correctly and whatever. Anyways, I got kicked out of the dorms. I got in trouble for one of these things that I did. 355M of the California Penal Code, annoying phone conversation. The powers at be, were really annoyed with me, because I was not being compliant, and I was not buying into the whole situation. I went to the ombudsman and I said, "Hey, this is ridiculous." He's like, "Yes, and it is totally ridiculous, just say you're sorry." [chuckles] I was like, "I'm not sorry. I don't want to be sorry." He was like, "Yes, but if you don't, you're going to get kicked out of college." It's a kangaroo court. This is the ombudsman. The person who, you just say, “I'm sorry”, and you'll get a slap on the wrist. I didn't say I was sorry.I had the longest court thing that they had ever had. I had RAs defending me. I had a petition of 300 people. I had my professors come in and talk about how I contributed. All it did was just piss these people off more, and more, and more. I just flying in the face of them. I wasn't on the learning journey with them at all. Then I got the response and they were like, "Okay well, so here's our agreement. We're going to kick you out of school for a year and we're going to kick you out of the dorms for life."I had a history professor who didn't know me at the time, [laughs] and he said, "How can I expect you to go out into the world and have healthy children if this is the way you're going to behave?" It was something.Luckily, I was still in my knowing after that. I threatened to sue the school. The 355M of the California Penal Code annoying phone conversation never landed. There were no charges, but the school, these authority figures, at the time, they did their thing. No doubt I was an ass. I just said, "I'm going to sue you guys. This is ridiculous. You can't do this." The Dean of students who wasn't involved was like, "Yes, this is utterly ridiculous." He suspended me for a quarter and out of the dorms for a year. Then I switched schools.What I learned in that process was that being right doesn't mean anything. Having the best database doesn't make you the best database company. We have this idea that being right is important, but all the people who are right the most, what has it gotten them? It does it even increase their odds of success, or happiness, or good relationships.Then I remember it striking me. I can't look back and say that I was wrong. I can't look back and say that, nowadays-- I can't look back and even say that they were wrong. I think we were both ignorant, because we were both in some level of war with ourselves and each other, but none of us got any closer to understanding ourselves and each other in the process. None of us made any progress. They didn't have a better dorm because of it. They weren't happier people because of it. Neither was I.Brett: What was stopping you from being in the wonder throughout that whole experience?Joe: I had a self-definition of being right. It was really important in my family of origin to be right. There would be debates, or arguments, or yells, and whatever they were, and if you weren't right, you were going to get it worse. You had to prove yourself to be right. I identified with being right at the time. I identified with a fairness and I was going to fight for that fairness. Now it's like, "How does that help me to be right? What am I? Do I want the answer to be right? I don't care if the answer's right. That's not the answer I want to the question, what am I."Brett: Reminds me of a conversation I had a while back where somebody just paused me in the middle of the conversation and they're like, "It seems you're being very right, right now. How could we optimize for connection?" I'm like, "Oh, I see."Joe: [laughs] Yes, exactly. [laughs] That's how I was in a conversation with the college about being right. [chuckles] The fortunate piece, this is the thing, I was completely certain about this stuff at the time. It led me into a job for the time that I was suspended, which was caring for developmentally disabled kids. It was a job that I got quickly. I got promoted quickly. Then I was in charge of this house of kids and these residents. That was who I was. That's what I was doing at the time.Talk about seeing that you can have connection with people who are not even capable of being a quarter of as right. Developmentally disabled people, even a complicated thought process is not really at their fingertips. Yet, they could be beautiful people. You could have a deep connection with them. I learned the lesson that being right had nothing to do with anything that was important to me.Brett: Often, their thought processes are more complicated in a different direction than you expected. There's actually something brilliant behind it. Or beautifully simple that you had overlooked.Joe: If you sat in wonder with these guys, you were in for a treat. It was frustrating at times to tune it out, but you were often in for a treat, if you could just sit in wonder with them and see the world through their eyes.Brett: Well, that wraps it up for VIEW. Thank you very much, Joe. I wonder what our next episode will be.Joe: [laughs] Me too. Thanks, Brett. It was a pleasure as always.Brett: Thank you.Thanks for listening to The Art of Accomplishment. If you enjoyed what you heard today, please subscribe & rate us in your podcast app. We would love your feedback, so feel free to send us questions and comments. To reach out to us, join our newsletter, or check out our courses at artofaccomplishment.com.

Introduction to VIEW — VIEW Series #1

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 26, 2020 49:01

VIEW is a state of mind that, through a series of experiments and exercises, you can learn to drop into with ease. When we approach conversations from VIEW we are able to understand others and ourselves in any situation and in a way where even conflict can bring joy and connection."Think about this way. If you have a conversation with a person and at the end of that conversation, they feel like they understand themselves and their business better, they want to continue to have conversations with you."Welcome to the Art of Accomplishment, where we explore how deepening connection with ourselves and others leads to creating the life we want with enjoyment and ease.My name is Brett Kistler. I am an adventurer, entrepreneur and a self exploration enthusiast. I am here with my co-host, Joe Hudson. Joe is a business coach who has spent decades working with some of the world's top executives and teams developing a unique model of human patterns that underpin how we operate with ourselves, each other and the world. A good entry point into this model is a mindset called VIEW, vulnerability, impartiality, empathy and wonder. Through understanding and cultivation we learn to easefully drop into the VIEW state of mind, deepening self awareness and increasing our connection with the world around us. To learn more about this podcast or courses, visit artofaccomplishment.comThere are so many approaches out there for deepening communication and interpersonal skills, whether in the realm of the personal or the professional. These frameworks are often composed of learned strategies and techniques that offer perspective style adjustments that may be directionally correct, but most fall short of pointing to the root conditions that facilitate true depth in human connection. What if the key ingredient at the core of strong communication was not a strategy, but a state of mind? How can we cultivate a more connective way of being through practice in our relationships as they are right now? These are the questions behind a practice we call VIEW, which we will be covering in this 5-part series. Brett: Great. Joe, what is VIEW?Joe: Practically, it's a way to have conversations. It's a communication methodology that allows your conversations to be far more effective. By effective, I mean more connected, more intimate and more productive, from anything from sales to product development to conversations with your husband or wife or coworker. It's particularly good at creating, like I said, more connection. Also, it's really good at embracing any kind of conflict or having difficult conversations. Practically, that's what it is. Realistically, it's a state of mind. It's communicating from a state of mind, and practicing that state of mind.Brett: What do you mean by "realistically"?Joe: To answer that question, I have to really talk about how the whole thing came about. The way that it came about was, I was an investor for a while. I hired this consultant at some point. This consultant had this amazing capacity. He had this capacity to do two things. One, he could sit down and have a conversation with somebody, and in a very short period of time, they could have a breakthrough where they would see themselves and the world differently in a way that gave them more freedom, and more capacity.He also had this great ability to sell. He couldn't sell what he didn't believe in, so he always sold stuff that he really cared about, but he could sell. I would watch him sit with somebody who was absolutely the opposite of him in characteristic. He would just ask questions, and he would end up selling whatever it is that he was there to sell, about 80% of the time. I would say generally, he had an 80% hit rate in both of these two kinds of conversations.I would say to him, "Wow, how did you do that?" He goes, "It's not the technique. You can't do this if you're channeling the technique." I've tried. This guy was a character. His name was Case. He would just be like, "You can't learn this. It's not a technique." That's what he would say. Anyway, Case got ill with cancer, unfortunately, has passed away. He wanted a very particular technique of healing that you can only find in California.He came to California and he lived with my family. We became very close. We were very close before that. I would watch him have these conversations every day. I've learned a lot through osmosis. I had already been 20-something years of self-discovery, so a lot of it made sense to me. When he passed, I was like, "I know there's other people who can do this." I knew one famous person who could have a similar set of conversations. I was like, "I'm going to find out what makes this tick." I went around the world looking for people, found people, and realized what they all had in common. What they all had in common was VIEW, the acronym of VIEW. I'm sure we'll get into it in a second.The main thing is that it is the state of mind that allows it. It is not the technique. That's why I say realistically, it's the state of mind because if you see this and view this as a technique, it won't work. If you see it as practicing a state of mind that allows for the technique to work if there's a technique even needed, there's definitely a technique that helps, then you can have a tremendous amount of success with it, and not just the success of like, "Wow, now I can have good conversations.” It's success in like, "Oh, now I talk to myself in a different way. Now I am in a frame of mind and I have a perspective that's more open, more free, more loving."Brett: Come to think of that, I've seen some of the aspects of this work in other places as techniques and they just never seem to land quite as deeply, and the state of mind concept seems to really be key here. Can you explain a little bit more about that?Joe: Neurologically and physically, when we communicate, there's a lot of things going on besides what we say. There is our body language, there is the empathy that's happening via mirror neurons, there's intonation, there's micro-expressions, there's so many things that are happening outside of language. As animals with mirror neurons, we know that that's happening. Whether we want to admit it to ourselves or not, there's some part of us that has the awareness of this stuff and they can't be faked.Micro-expressions can't be faked. It is a representation of what's actually happening in your system on an emotional level and on a nervous system level. If you are using it as a technique, it can't work, because the actual state of mind is going to shine through in these other non-intellectual ways. If you think about that for a second, it's like this. It's a very cool thought process.If you see people, they learn these great techniques that are out there, like nonviolent communication or something like that and all of a sudden, they've been weaponized. You just see them being weaponized. It's like you see all this communication training go south. If you've done communication training, you know you've done it and then it's gone south. It's because communication is a natural out-point of your state of mind. It can help you change your state of mind, but if you just focus on it like I'm practicing a state of mind, and that communication comes out of it, it's just far more successful.Brett: Can you give us an example of that?Joe: Yes. Let's say your boyfriend or girlfriend wants your undivided attention and you don't really want to give it to them. You want to watch the soccer match or you want to watch ER or whatever it is, but you decide like, "Oh, they're going to be pissed if I don't, or oh my god, I'm going to listen to the bitch forever if I don't", so then you give them your attention, but it's unwilling. It's full of resentment. It's frustrating, let's just say.Inevitably, you'll be paying attention to the person who asked you to pay attention and then they're going to start getting frustrated. Now, you don't really want to be here and you're like, "What the hell? I just stopped what I was doing to give you the attention that you asked for. Now that's not good enough?” Who hasn't been in this conversation?Brett: That's how it starts.Joe: Yes, exactly. That's how it starts, and it's because it's obvious in everything besides your language that you don't want to be there paying attention. It doesn't feel good, because we know it and that's what I mean. If the state of mind isn't, "Oh, I want to pay attention to you," it will never work. If the state of mind in the communication is "I'm trying to get something out of you," which is the antithesis of VIEW, then it'll never work, no matter what technique you use.Brett: Then sometimes we actually are duped by believing somebody's intentions that aren't true through whatever techniques they're using. How does that work when somebody's state of mind doesn't shine through?Joe: The state of mind, maybe if they're like sociopaths so they're not actually having a very natural human experience when they're talking to you, outside of something like that, then it's really two things that happen, when you can't sense this from other people. One is that you have something you want to believe and they are giving you that. We'll believe a lie if it rhymes with the truth that we want to believe.Now you see this in mass media all the time. It's like, "Okay. Cool. They said that and that rhymes with what I believe, so I'm going to buy into that," or salespeople or infomercials. "Yes. You can be rich and without any effort." "Oh, I want to believe that so you can--" That's part of the ways that we get duped is, that we're actually basically duping ourselves. The other thing that happens is, that, if you study trauma and I don't mean huge trauma. That also is true, like a war trauma or a car accident of trauma, but even the minor traumas of always been criticized by somebody who is supposed to be nurturing you.When we hear somebody that reminds us of that trauma, then we're not actually hearing them, we're not actually with them, we're with the person or people who helped us get that trauma into our bones. There's this great data on that about how you're not in the same time and space when you're moving to trauma. You see this with war veterans all the time in a major way, where they think they're in the war even though they're on their living room sofa. It happens in minor ways all the time. In those places, then we're not really aware of the person's intentions. Those are the two main ways it happens.Brett: Those times when somebody starts acting like a child and it's like, "Wait a minute. Okay, they're acting the age they were, when the thing that this is mapping onto occurred to them."Joe: Exactly. That's exactly right. It's why you can learn really duplicitous sales techniques and they work one out of eight times, because you're just basically fishing for the fish who wants that bait. You can do that, and it looks like it works. If you're authentic and you're actually in a deep care for the person, then it works a lot more effectively, and there's great studies on this of what the best sales techniques are.You see that they did this with car salesmen. It was even a used car salesman. They were like, "Who are the most effective car salesmen?" There was good car salesman and really good car salesmen, and then there was these just unbelievably great salesmen, just in numbers. The cases of those unbelievably great performers, it was because they actually cared about their customer. They saw it as a relationship.Those relationships came back over and over again. They saw their job is to really help that person be in the right vehicle, and people knew it and so it worked. The numbers were far better than the whatever it is, one in eight. You can't quote me on it, but it was something like three times the performance of an average car salesperson.Brett: What does VIEW stand for?Joe: The acronym. V is the vulnerability, I is impartiality, E is empathy and W is wonder. That's what it stands for, vulnerability, impartiality, empathy and wonder. That's really describing the state of mind. There's some techniques layered on top of that, not much and they're not necessary if you're actually in that vulnerable, impartial, empathetic, and full-of-wonder state of mind.Brett: It seems like almost ways to check that you're in the state of mind. If you're in the state of mind that these point to, then you will be having vulnerability, impartiality, empathy and wonder.Joe: Yes. It's like that. It's also they're great ways. I use these four ways to describe it, because they're great ways to sink into it quickly. If you're not there, what are the best techniques, what are the best words or reminders to get you there quickly?Brett: That makes sense. Let's go through each of them. What do each of these mean to you?Joe: Vulnerability is to speak your truth even when it's scary. That's what it is to be vulnerable, is to be very much yourself in your truth, even though you're scared of the result or the potential results. Impartiality is not trying to achieve an outcome for yourself or others. It's far more like wandering, than it is like goal orientation. Empathy is to be with a person in their emotions. Wonder, it's a lot like curiosity except for you're not looking for the answer. There's a lot more awe in wonder than there is in curiosity, but you're definitely not looking for the answer.Brett: Vulnerability sounds a lot like a weakness for a lot of people. How did you come up with this definition for vulnerability?Joe: Yes. I think the reason that people think being vulnerable as being weak is because they get confused with the difference between being weak and feeling weak. When we are vulnerable, there's often a visceral response in our bodies, an emotional response, a nervous system response like, "Oh, I'm going to get weak. I'm being weak and I'm going to get attacked." You're going to get that when you're being vulnerable, especially for the first 10 or so times.I think that's where that confusion comes from. Vulnerable, the reason I describe it this way is, if you're not in your truth, you can't be vulnerable. If you're not in your truth, there's no exposure. If I'm pretending to be somebody else and you attack me for being somebody else, it's like, "Well, they're not really attacking me. They're attacking someone else." That's the truth part of it. Then the second part of it is even when it's scary.Being in our truth isn't scary, if we don't think we're going to get attacked. Being in our truth isn't scary, when we don't feel like somebody will judge us, being in our truth isn't scary when we aren't scared of the consequences, and so vulnerability is being in your truth, even when we're scared of those consequences. It's really the opposite of weakness. It's actually an incredible form of strength.Brett: Courage.Joe: It's a very deep practice. Yes. It can take you a very long way if you practice it on a daily basis.Brett: Yes. It reminds me of the definition of courage, which is that courage isn't the lack of fear, courage is the willingness to feel fear.Joe: Yes. Not overcome it but feel it, that is so right. Yes. That's it. Yes, that's vulnerability.Brett: Yes. Let's get into impartiality. It sounds impossible, especially in business. Theoretically, you could just be completely impartial in your entire life and how would you get anywhere that you want to go?Joe: [laughs] Yes, that's the assumption.Brett: There has to be some partiality.Joe: Yes, there definitely is some partiality. If you really, really pay attention, every sentence that we have has some little bit of an agenda in it. It's very asymptotic in that way, meaning that we can keep on getting less and less partial, but we can't become completely 100% impartial. What I'm talking about here is the difference between getting in your car at a very specific time to get to your job at a very specific time and making sure that you get there and getting in a car and driving around, following what feels great to follow in that moment, and wandering like the old-fashioned Sunday drive. That's what I'm talking about. In that case, one is highly partial. It is "Let's get in the car, let's get there, let's get there on time. This is the route I want to take, and I don't want traffic and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." One of them is like, "I'm partial on the fact that I want to take a drive, but I don't care where I end up and I am here to enjoy myself," so that's the thing. The reason this is so important is because we feel when somebody has an agenda for us and we resist it.Just tell a two-year-old to do something and the nature of them, they say no, right? The more agenda that we have and you feel with a salesperson all the time, they really want you to buy the less you want to buy. Even if you buy, you're like, "No." It's like, "Stop fucking trying to sell me." That's what I mean by agenda and with business, what's interesting is, everyone thinks that you need to be highly partial to be good at business. You do have to have a clear intention. You do have to have a clear goal. There's no doubt there.How you get there if you're really highly partial, it's going to slow you down, because there might be 10 ways to get there that are better or quicker or better for the people who are getting you there. Impartiality is actually far more efficient as a way of getting someplace in business. The way I talk about or think about that often is, there is a river that we are on, particularly in business where there's where the customer wants to go, what's needed, what's wanted, where the employees want to go.If you are reading that river and going with that river, then there's a lot less effort. If you decide you're going against that river, if you decide that you are going to not go with the flow but go against the flow or counterflow, it's a lot more effort and--Brett: Or build a canal, as you've said before.Joe: [laughs] Yes, or build a canal. Yes. That's the thing. To be impartial, it works incredibly well. I work with, as you know, some executives running companies of thousands of people, and there's this amazing click that happens when they realize like, "Oh, if I can be impartial in these ways, not give up my goal but be impartial in how this thing happens and be impartial with people, I actually discover what is, and then I can use that information and use that data to create a better plan.“If I don't try to force a particular thing and we just agree on a goal, then all of a sudden, things move so much quicker and have so much more efficiency." It's the hardest one for people to get, impartiality. It's the hardest one for people to get. Yes.Brett: It reminds me of an example you've mentioned before about trying to plan a whole basketball game.Joe: That sounds like a good example. Can you tell me what it is? I've completely forgotten.Brett: Oh, yes. You have a clear goal, which is to put the ball in the hoop, and if you try to plan the whole thing and you're partial to "No, the ball is going to go to this person now," but somebody is already in the way. Passing it to them is clearly not a good idea. If you're not open to other options, then you're not going to make it to your goal.Joe: That's it. That's exactly it. Yes. Awesome. Thanks for remembering that.Brett: Empathy then. Some folks feel lost in empathy, and they get lost in the other person, and they lose their own goals, they lose their own wants.Joe: Yes. Empathy isn't that. I would say empathy is being with somebody in their emotions. It's not avoiding their emotional state, it's not trying to change their emotional state, it's not trying to make them happy, it's not trying to get them to an epiphany. Empathy is just like, "Oh, you're there and I'm with you," but it's also not being in it with them. It's not believing the story and saying, "Oh, it's true. Your husband does that, your wife does dah, dah, dah, and your boss...Oh my God, they are taking advantage." It's also not losing your own emotional state. Oftentimes, we'll be so empathetic with people that whatever they're feeling, we're feeling. Brett: "Oh, you're right. I am the bad guy, I am terrible to you. Oh, shame."Joe: Yes. That's a perfect way that people are empathetic in a way that they've lost themselves, so it's not true empathy. True empathy-- being with somebody, it's being next to them, it's holding their hand, it's not losing yourself in them.Brett: Then wonder then. You said wonder and not curiosity or as opposed to or distinct from curiosity. Why not curiosity? Why wonder?Joe: Curiosity, it's a lovely thing. It's like, "Oh, what's happening over there?" There's something that switches in your physical state. If you just, right now, think to yourself, "Oh, what's happening for Brett in this conversation?", there's an open expansiveness that happens with that question, but then as soon as you try to figure it out, something constricts. Wonder is living in the openness of the question with awe. Curiosity can be that, but curiosity can also become very focused on need the answer, need the answer, need the answer. I'm pointing, by using the word "wonder," to that being in the question without needing to get an answer.If you just stop and think about, "What would it be like to be with a person who's just in the question with me, who just has wonder about what's happening with me and they don't need me to solve anything?" You can feel your whole system relax. Brett: It makes for a lot of ease in a sales conversation as well.Joe: Right. Exactly, because if you're not in that ease and you're focused on trying to figure out, "Err," then the person's mirror neurons are like, "I don't want to be around this."Brett: In a way, all of this feels very process-based.Joe: Yes, that's right. It's interesting that you mention it. Recently, I was watching a TED Talk on design process. One of the things that they were talking about in this lecture was how if you're shooting for a result, you won't get it. The thing you have to do is stay focused on the process, and it's going to go sideways, it's not going to go well at times, but the output is consistently better, than if you're going for a particular result.If you look at design theory, they all talk about this process and having faith in the process and that it will lead you to the outcome. If you leave the process, it won't lead you to the outcome. This is the exact same thing. It's very much like living principled. You're saying, "Here are the principles I'm living by, because I know consistently if I live by them, it works out in the way that works for me and works for my deepest truth."It's the same thing with this. That guy, Case, that I talked about in the earlier part of the program. He would get into these conversations because I have no idea what the hell is going to happen. He would always point it to that. That's what he's saying. He's saying that "I don't know what's going to happen, because if I did or if I tried to make it happen in a particular way, it's going to go to shit. It's far better for me to just be in this process and trust the process."Brett: It sounds like this is a way to trust and flow with the self-organizing, social and business dynamics that are already occurring and not get in the way of them through a narrow-minded constraint or management of the process or over-management.Joe: Yes, that's right. An example is, that for a while there I directed short films. One of the things that I learned was that if I wanted a very specific result from an actor, I'd get a horrible performance, whereas if I could give the actor a clear objective, then their performance just did really, really well. It's a really similar thought process, is that if you hold that objective and you trust in the process, then it works out.That's not to say, this is an interesting part, because a lot of people when they start learning VIEW, they think, "Then I'm not allowed to have an opinion, or I'm not allowed to have a boundary," that's absolutely not the case. Those are really important things, and they can be actually incredibly vulnerable things to say, and in business all the time, I'll say, "What I'm not okay with is this." I'll just leave that upfront on the table. Like, "This isn't working for me. Here are the reasons it doesn't work for me. How do we solve that problem?" But then I'm impartial once I have that. I'm even impartial as far as if someone says, "Why, what is it? What are you missing, dah, dah, dah?" I'm open to listening to that. If I'm not convinced out of it, I'm not going to pretend that I am to be in a VIEW conversation, because I can't be, because if I'm not being true to myself inside the conversation, I can't be vulnerable. I can't be impartial either, for that matter, and it's very hard to be curious. Brett: The person's not doing business with you.Joe: Yes, exactly. You're right, exactly, and then it's going to go to shit eventually anyhow. Exactly.Brett: You mentioned earlier that there are techniques. This is all a process around a frame of mind that it emerges from, but that there are techniques. There must be something to help point us back to this frame of mind. Can you tell me a little more about that?Joe: Yes. It's how and what questions. That's the entirety of the technique is to ask how and what questions. There is a technique that's more for running meetings that I've developed as well. The general thing is how and what questions, and the reason is, because they're open-ended questions. If you say, "Do you like ice cream?" I get to say yes or no. If you say, "How do you feel about ice cream?" You might hear a story of my childhood, and you might hear that chocolate chip is my favorite, then you might hear about my dairy allergy, or you might hear how I had a cow when I was a kid. You have no idea what you're going to hear. You get access to so much more data, which shows that you're actually in wonder. If you only want to hear yes or no, you're not really in wonder.It's how/what questions, which are mainly-- because they are open questions. Obviously, there's who, what, where, when, and why. All those other ones are good, but they're just not very common. How and what are the most common ones, and we don't use why questions in the technique because of two reasons. One is most people when they're saying a why question, they're in judgment. It's, "Why'd you do that?" There's not real curiosity there. It's just like, "You should feel shitty, and I want you to make an excuse for yourself." That´s really what that communication is.Brett: "Why wasn't this done on time?"Joe: "Why wasn't this done on time?" It's like you're looking for them to make an excuse. You're already in a judgment place with them. Typically, not always. The other reason, that why questions don't work so well, is because they're the hardest questions to actually answer. There's somebody who said why questions are the questions that scientists can't answer. Like, "Why is the sun?" is a really hard question and I would say an unanswerable question, whereas "What makes the sun, how did the sun get there?" Those are answerable questions. That's the other thing.Brett: At least there was a lot of information you can speak on about it.Joe: Yes, exactly, so true. Exactly, you get information. You get data. The other thing is, usually when I talk about all this, somebody will say to me, "Yes, but you can be judgmental with how/what questions." Yes, you can. You can be judgmental with anything.Brett: "What makes you such a dick?"Joe: Yes. The funniest thing is when I'm doing VIEW, I might actually ask that question like, "Hey, what's making you such a dick right now?" If I say it from VIEW, if I say it with vulnerability, impartiality, if I say it like, "Oh my God, this is scary to say this to this person," but it's true for me that they're being a dick and I'm actually quite curious, I have wonder there and I don't really need them to answer in a particular way, nor do I want them not be a dick, and I actually can empathize with them, then their answers can be--. It happens all the time in my world where I can say, "What's making you such a dick right now?" and they'll laugh, or they'll say, "Oh, yes, I've had a bad day or blah, blah, blah" because it's not, "What makes you such a dick?"Brett: One of those ways of asking it is open to all answers like, "Hey, did you have a rough day? What's going on with you?" Another one of them is just like, "You better have a really fucking good excuse for this."Joe: That's exactly it. Why questions just imply it more, and it's easier for the person on the other side to assume it, than how or what questions. Also, how and what questions make you reframe questions in a new way, which triggers your brain. It opens your neurology for a second when you say to somebody something like, "What is it that's making you such a dick?" It's not a way we'd normally phrase the question. It does something to them and to us.Brett: Yes. I've found after doing this work, there's been so many times I've been in a conversation, I'm about to say something and it starts with something other than how or what, and then I pause and then I find the thing I'm curious about. Then a question comes out and the conversation goes in a totally different direction.Joe: That's right. Yes, exactly. That's what happens all the time. It's not just different. It's also far more meaningful and productive often. I'll do this in a room full of high-powered executives. After we have our first few conversations, I'll say, "You just had a 10-minute meeting. Have you ever had such a productive 10-minute meeting?" That's the moment of realization that everybody goes through where they're like, "Holy crap, without an agenda, I just solved more puzzles or I just overcame more roadblocks than I have having an hour-long meeting with a direct report, pushing them to an answer."Brett: Right. There's a two-sidedness to it. There's the side that we'd spoke to earlier, where the open-ended questions give you more information, more data. On the other side, the person gets to be heard and speak their piece and speak to their wants and needs rather than checking a box of like, "Oh, which option was I given, vanilla or chocolate?"Joe: Yes. Exactly. Because of that, you can actually come up with a better solution for a problem if you're in that position, in the conversation. But also, oftentimes that's all that anybody actually needs. I see this happen all the time where say a manager wants to be able to go in one direction and the people don't want to go and all they actually need is to be heard. When they get fully heard, they're like, "Okay, I'll go in that direction. That makes sense." We've all lived in that situation where we are basically being stubborn and, “No, I don't want to do it.” Then when we feel fully heard, we're like, "Oh, okay."Brett: Almost every complaint I've ever heard about a boss or an employee has had some form of, I don't feel heard in it.Joe: Yes. That's right. Tell me a time that you were at your peak productivity and you felt unheard.Brett: Yes, no.Joe: Yes. Exactly. Nobody can.Brett: Unless I was shutting myself out from everybody else and doing peak productivity with myself.Joe: Right. Which means that you were being productive in a team. That's right.Brett: Let's swing back to the science around this. Tell me more about that.Joe: There's a lot of stuff out there in psychology, neuroscience and CBT, all sorts of different kinds of studies, that support what's happening if you're in a VIEW state of mind. Let's focus on, let's say two or three of the main ones. One of them is just a simple thing. If you are under attack, you can't be curious, or if you're under attack, you can't learn because you're not curious. We know this and on many different levels. One, we know that if kids feel under stress, they don't do as well on tests. They don't learn as quickly.We know that if two people are in a fight-- here's something you've never seen, one person's like, "You son of a blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, I hate you, dah, dah, dah and you're stupid, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." The other person says, "Oh, you know what? You're right. I get your point." We don't do that, because it's neurologically not possible. That's, let's say the extreme attack where we can never see somebody, ended up being curious or learning.Then there's just more and more subtle forms of attack. The most subtle forms of attack are you just trying to push somebody into doing what you want them to do, be happy, stop crying, just do this task. The more that attack is there, the more you're trying to push somebody into something and be different than who they are, the less able they are to learn. That's just a simple one.If you think about it this way, it's like, if you close your eyes and you visualize yourself running from a lion and you're running as fast as you can. It's like, you can hear the paws hitting the ground, it's catching up to you. It's going to pounce on you at any minute and it's a huge thing. You know you're dead and it's coming, it's coming, it's coming, it's coming. Here's what you don't do. You don't go, "Oh, I wonder how much it weighs.”If you actually do that exercise and you stop and you go, "How much does this weigh?" All the fear goes away, which is why wonder is such an important thing to point to. Because if you actually stop and say, "What am I curious about, what do I have actual deep wonder for?", then the fear that you have dissipates. If you're trying to push somebody into something, that's because you're in fear. That's what creates the drama of our life, is our incapacity to love people as they are. We're scared of something and so we start trying to push them around.Brett: This lion example, it brings up a good point. That fear is actually useful. Because if you did stop running from the lion to think about how much it weighs, then you would get eaten. Fear is helpful. It's just a lot of times in our lives, we end up having a stress response that doesn't match the actual moment. It seems like you're pointing to with the VIEW– is really cultivating a lower homeostatic set point for stress from which open-ended questions can emerge naturally and curiosity can exist.Joe: Yes. That's exactly it. That's all together true. Then there's also a practical thing, which is we are not going to be as open, we're not going to learn as much, we are not going to want to hang out with as much people, who are scared in their conversation with us and therefore trying to control us.Brett: We'll trust them less.Joe: We'll trust them less. That's right. Because they're trusting themselves less. They think that they have to control something to be safe, and people who actually deeply trust themselves don't think that that's true. They know that they're safe no matter what, unless a lion is chasing them.Brett: Yes. As mammals, we can detect that in other people a mile away. We naturally do that when we walk into a room and we find out who is the one that's the most stressed out and scared, and who's the one that's the most calm. Then subconsciously we put ourselves into pecking orders based on this.Joe: That's right. That's exactly it. The predator smells it out and attacks the one that's-- exactly. That's it. That's that part of it. Then there's also another part of the science, is that there's-- we make decisions emotionally. If you took out our emotional centers of our brain, we stop making decisions. It would take us half an hour to decide what color pen to use. It would take us four hours to decide where to have lunch. There's a great book on this called Descartes' Error. We make decisions emotionally.Do people pay $200 for Nike shoes because they think that it's a $200 worth of shoe? No, they're making an emotional decision. Do you buy this piece of software because you like the sales guy or the saleswoman? Do you buy this piece of software because it makes you feel safe? Do you buy this piece of software, because you beat it up and you feel like that they would have answers for it? The answer is that you are buying that piece of software based on an emotion.You might use logic to figure out the most likely way that you would get that emotion. I don't want to be yelled at by my boss, so I'm making an emotional decision to not get yelled at and I'll use logic to figure out how to not get yelled at by my boss, but we're making emotional decisions. All the information in the world won't sell people stuff. If it was just pure information, then a Nike ad would be like, "Look at this shoe. It has 6 inches of leather siding and it has 8 holes on each side for the shoestrings." That would be, "Oh”, but it's not. You make the emotional buy.If I'm hanging out with you, you're hanging out with me because of an emotional experience that we have when we're together. If I am buying the product, it's because I'm having an emotional experience around the product. If I am wanting intimacy with you, if I would want to call you when I'm having a problem, if I want to come home and see my parents, if I don't get offended when you tell me that you need space, all those things are based on emotions. They're not based on facts. That's really a main thing about VIEW because we're acknowledging, owning, and addressing the emotional part of a conversation.Brett: Well, when we're making a decision, there's only so much logic you can actually do, given the time constraints and there's so much more to consider. I think what you're saying is that the emotions are a way that we make a probabilistic inference based on everything that's happened in our lives with just a feeling in our body that helps shape which questions we even ask with logic to figure out the final details and then make a decision.Joe: Yes, there's that aspect of it and there's also the aspect of it, like, “How many decisions have you made so that you don't feel like, let's say weak. How many decisions have you made to feel loved?” Whole swaths of decisions are made over this kind of thing. A VIEW conversation allows people to have all those emotions, feel safe in them and to feel actually accepted and wanted and appreciated in that experience for who they are, which we all want.Brett: Yes, it's important to just remember that everybody that you're in a conversation with, even in a stuffy business environment, everybody's making emotional decisions based on the things you just spoke to.Joe: That's right, absolutely.Brett: Tell me more about the payoff and the benefits of practicing VIEW.Joe: This is a common story in my world. I will go into a team of people, typically it's Silicon Valley teams that I go into. It's not only Silicon Valley, but typically it is. You're talking about really smart programmers or really smart business people, and they're not getting along. I remember this one particular example, the team had like an ex-Navy seal on it and a MIT triple graduate, that kind of a team of just super intense people. They weren't getting along. They weren't being productive.Half-day into a two-day workshop, the people who hadn't been able to get along were crying with each other because of all the pain and all that resistance in their system they could let go when they realized, the person across from me doesn't hate me, isn't trying to kill me, and isn't trying to destroy my thing. We're just not communicating with each other clearly.It was so amazingly beautiful. That team who had not hit their performance metrics, and I think it had been three years, hit their performance metrics that quarter. That's a payoff. You get a tremendous amount of cohesion, not just between the team but between you and the people around you. We all know that when we feel deeply connected with somebody that we will go to the ends of the earth to support them and they will go to their ends of the earth to support us. That's really what we want from friends. If it's a true support, it's not dysfunctional support. It's really what we want. It's what we want in our teams. That's one benefit.Another benefit is that most people right now are like, “Conflict, how do I avoid that?” Or, “Conflict, I'll just get through it. I'm just going to push, go get in conflict so I can get on the other side of it.” When you really understand this frame of mind, conflict is an amazing thing, because what happens every time is that conflict gives you better solutions than you had before. You start looking for conflict.Not looking for conflict like, "Ah, here's a way I can pick a fight", but like, "Oh, there's a tension. Let's go explore it." Because I know if I explore it from this frame of mind, all of a sudden I'm going to have better solutions, better answers, and better paths forward. It's also really a lovely state to be in. It's really quite pleasant. If you are in wonder, it's a more open and spacious feeling, than if you think you know everything all the time. Think about the people you know in your life who know everything all the time. They don't look like they're enjoying themselves.If you think about people who are empathetic, not in somebody, but they're just like, “Oh, I can be here with you in your state, that's just a more open state.” It's just a really lovely place to be. There's the efficiency that I mentioned, like with the 10-minute sessions. The other thing is that what I noticed is, when people really get into this conversation and they start practicing it, the sense of loneliness just dissolves.There's so many people in our society who feel very lonely and very insecure. Not insecure like I'm not good enough, but insecure like, "Oh my God, I might lose my job." When they see this technique at work and they use it and that frame of mind becomes a steady state place, what happens is, they don't have that deep experience of loneliness. They know what it is to be alone, but they're not, "Oh my God, I'm all alone and nobody loves me." That's not happening. It's not only that the loneliness starts to dissolve, but also this sense of security shows up. The sense of security is there, because you realize that no matter what your boss says, no matter what happens, you're able to have this conversation with them that actually benefits you and them consistently.There's a deep level of security in that, because we're not really scared of losing our job and not being able to make money. What we're really scared of is that we're not going to be of value, that we're not going to be heard and that we're not going to be able to be seen for what our value is. We're worried about losing our job, but if we know that every time we have a conversation it's valuable to ourselves and the other people around us, whenever we want that, that's a deep form of security.Brett: Right. If we're worried about losing our, job because that would mean to us that we are not valuable anywhere, it doesn't matter if you lose your job if you know you're valuable somewhere else and you could go do something that you're valuable at.Joe: Yes, that's right. If you think about it this way, it's like, if you have a conversation with the person and at the end of that conversation, they feel they understand themselves better, they understand their business better, they want to continue to have conversations with you. That's how it works. The thing is, you don't have to know shit to do that. You just have to ask really good questions and be vulnerable in it, to be empathetic in it, to be impartial in it and to be full of wonder in it. It doesn't even require that you have skills. It just requires that you are having a conversation with them that allows the best of them to come up.Brett: To that, I've noticed that VIEW, it seems to be like, this magical ingredient, this special sauce. You can just pour on a workplace and it transforms relationships and teams. How do you account for this?Joe: Yes. It's like I was saying it happened in that one company. I've seen it so consistently happen and it feels like magic. I think partially because often revenue increases, because team cohesion increases, because sales methodology improves, because the products are more connected with the customer. Product development conversations are better. There's all sorts of things that happen when people feel more connected and they're actually more in wonder. They're wondering what the right question is, they're wondering what the customer wants, and when they're willing to be vulnerable about maybe that product sucks. There's all sorts of cool things but really, when people are met with this level of openness, when they're met with this level of care and nurturing, when they're met with this level of support, they really know it. That is what relaxes something in them. It allows them to perform at their best. Like we said at the beginning, if you know you're being judged by a team, if you know that the people in your team are not open to you, you're not going to be at your peak performance.But if you know that that's there, if you know that you can be accepted and the boundaries will be held and you feel safe in that environment, you're going to be incredibly effective. Even if the outside world is like, man, you've got two months to solve this and you better solve it, if you've got your team there with you, that's going to get you your best performance. It's going to get you your best performance in a marriage as well. If I know that my wife deeply supports me, deeply cares about me, is open to my truth, is in deep wonder about my experiences, is vulnerably sharing with me, that's what allows me to be the best husband and vice versa.That's really the magic of it. The magic of it isn't some technique or some state of mind. The magic of it is that it allows all of us, it creates the environment where all of us can be the best, where all of us can live in our truth. That's what's the magic. It's just like a really good soil. Then the seed of who we are gets to sprout in who we are is frickin amazing.Brett: VIEW, vulnerability, impartiality, empathy, and wonder. This has been a great episode. Joe, thank you very much.Joe: My pleasure, Brett. Thank you. Thanks for listening to The Art of Accomplishment. If you enjoyed what you heard today, please subscribe & rate us in your podcast app. We would love your feedback, so feel free to send us questions and comments. To reach out to us, join our newsletter, or check out our courses at artofaccomplishment.com.

Jeff Behrens, PhD - Why You're Wrong About Biotech Funding

Angel Invest Boston

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 14, 2020 40:38

Join Sal Daher's Investment Syndicate: Click to Join Jeff Behren's doctoral dissertation suggests that life science startups are not funded the way we all think. Listen to our discussion of his work and learn why he believes we have to revise what is taught to founders about raising money. Highlights: Sal Daher Welcomes Jeff Behrens Back on the Podcast to Discuss His Findings on Biotech Funding “We published papers. We had a world class SAB, and ultimately, we sold these drugs. So, during that, you'd think, "Well, we should be able to raise venture capital." We never could.” The Conventional Wisdom about How Life Science Startups Are Funded Casma Therapeutics as an Example of a Startup Born Inside a Venture Firm “There was no Lisa and Joe… There [was] no outside founders. This was born inside the venture firm.” Jeff’s Research Result: Only 8% of All Startups Follow Path of Angel Funding Then VC Funding Jeff’s Research Result: For Biotech Startups, 4.5% of those that Started with Angel Money Got VC Funding “So, it's almost like these are two distinct entrepreneurial streams that don't intermingle very much.” Angel Investors Should Not Expect Future Rounds to Come from VCs – Should Think About How to Fund Future Rounds in the Absence of VC Money "Well, we want to have fewer new companies and more companies that we invest longer and heavier and over time." Jeff’s Research Result: In a Decade VC-Started Biotechs Went from Taking 20% of Funded Deals to Taking 80% The Big Biotech VCs Don’t Take Pitches from Outside Companies Anymore Only 3% Funding Goes to the Scrappy Biotechs Who Were Not VC-Founded or Did Not Have Famous Founders Scrappy Biotech Startups Need to Draw a Credible Path that Does Not Include VC Funding Corporate Venture Groups Created to Allow Big Players to Look at New Technologies Being Funded by a Corporate VC Does Not Seem to Increase the Chances of a Venture Being Acquired Trends Among Life-Science VCs Vary Geographically: Boston, NY vs. West Coast “We never take pitches” – Dave Berry - Partner - Flagship Pioneering Accelerators, Business Schools, Advisors Need to Revise their Ideas about Funding of Biotech Startups “So, it is true that Polaris is probably... Of these companies that are doing venture creation, they're probably more balanced than the others.” Path Dependency of Funding “…unfortunately, great science can languish unfunded.” Parting Thoughts from Jeff Behrens, PhD

phd ny ideas started chances draw funding absence sab biotech business school polaris revise behrens conventional wisdom you're wrong parting thoughts joe there

Get Positive Cashflow More Quickly Through Wholesaling With Ecommerce Expert Dillon Carter

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 22, 2020 29:06

On this episode of the Quiet Light podcast, we speak with Dillon Carter about his path to launching a wholesale CRM, why he pivoted to a slighted different business model, and how his company helps their clients succeed. Dillon Carter is one of the founders of Aura, a wholesale CRM that helps you with repricing, managing wholesale suppliers, and growing your Amazon business. Tune in to hear our interesting discussion! Topics: How he floundered before finding his true passion. Launching a wholesale-based CRM software, before pivoting into repricing software. Explaining wholesale. Working with an antiquated business model. What happens when everyone is using Aura at the same time. How Aura works. Resources: Aura Dillon Carter's Website Quiet Light Transcription: Joe: Hey folks, Joe Valley here from Quiet Light Brokerage and the Quiet Light Podcast sponsored by Quiet Light Brokerage, oddly enough. Everybody here is an entrepreneur. We've all built, bought, and sold our own online businesses. I sold my last e-commerce business in 2010. Things have changed a little bit since then. We've got to Dillon Carter on the podcast today. Dillon is one of those changes. He was; well, let's see, 2010, you were still in high school back then, weren't you? Dillon: I graduated in 2010, yeah. Joe: That makes me an old guy or you very good at what you do at such a young age. Probably just that, I'm going to call at Syed Balkhi right now. Syed I think might have just turned 30 years old and referred a client over to me so I was just chatting with him earlier today. Incredibly impressive at a young age and I'm looking at your LinkedIn profile, I'm looking at Vendrive, I'm looking at Aura Repricing and, man, you've got a lot going on in your life. Can you help people that are listening, who you are and what you do and summarize or give more detail to that summary that I just gave? Dillon: Sure. So I started out graduating high school not knowing what in the world I wanted to do, like most entrepreneurs. So, I kind of floundered for about four to five years, just testing a bunch of different things. I found myself being a personal trainer, working ridiculous hours and realizing I did not like a service based business because that's kind of difficult to scale. I realized okay, physical products is something that could theoretically scale in my mind at that time so I started playing around with the Amazon FBA model. Like most people, you get started with retail or online arbitrage, right? Low capital requirement, you could kind of test the waters. I did that and eventually me and the GM of the gym I was training at did not see eye to eye so I decided, you know what, let's go ahead and put myself in a corner and make it work. And so, eventually I decided retail arbitrage, although was better than being able to scale my time so I could not scale in the way that I wanted the business to. So like most FBA sellers, I decided to either go the wholesale or the private label route. I chose wholesale. It made a little bit more sense to me; low capital requirement, I could start paying the bills immediately because it was certainly an issue that I was faced with. I went that route and really spent a handful of years just crafting what wholesale meant to me, how I approached it. At the same time, I decided to go back to school full time for college. So it was one of those lingering aspects of my life where I was like do I really want to be that statistic where you took a few semesters, you kind of dropped out, and never went back. I'm like, no, I'm tripling down on my life at this point, no holds barred, and so that's what I did. And then eventually I met my co-founder, James. We eventually launched www.Vendrive.com, which is wholesale-based CRM software and then pivoted actually funny enough into repricing software. And that's our primary focus at the moment. So I've kind of traversed this world in a few different ways. I launched a podcast or two here and there. I shared all the knowledge that I've gained along the way and the podcast and blog posts and our Facebook group I mean, really just somewhat built an audience just teaching everything for free and I learned a lot from that. It's been a long journey, so to speak, but I feel like I'm just getting started. Joe: That's the way to do it. You help, help, and help some more. Give it all for free and make some friends along the way. It's amazing what you do when you help others, how it comes back to help your own business. In fact, we had Steven Pope on our podcast. I think he's www.MyAmazonGuy.com and so did you and he connected the two of us together. Strangely enough, I told you at the beginning of this call or before we hit record, that I sent a message out to the team that we just don't have enough wholesale guys; men, women, people, individuals, entrepreneurs on the podcast, because we have not historically sold a ton of wholesale businesses. But it's a funny thing, I come from the private label world. I didn't sell on Amazon. When I sold my e-commerce business it really wasn't much focused on Amazon. I did after that, but it was always my own products, always private label and some people look down on wholesale. At this point in my career; not that I'm going to change what I do, but if I were, I might look at wholesale before I look at private label. I might look at an agency before I make a private label. I might do a lot of different things. I might even look at content. But why don't you, for the sake of those that are listening, that are not as versed in it as you are define what wholesale is versus private label and how it works? Dillon: Sure. Wholesale is a very antiquated business model and I don't say that in a negative tone. What I mean by that is you are buying low and you are selling higher. You're literally finding listings on Amazon that are already doing well and you are doing what we call reverse sourcing. So you're finding listings already doing well, finding those brands, those products, and then you are going to the brand to open a wholesale account to purchase in bulk like pallets and stuff like that. It's actually very straightforward. There's nothing crazy to it. The difference here because you made a good point that a lot of people don't view the wholesale business model as a sexy business model. That's not your quote but that's kind of what I hear and you hear it a lot. And I think the reason why you have not sold a whole lot of wholesale Amazon business models is because the multiples are not that great. So, when I went back to school, I actually went to be finance major and so my focus was actually M&A. So doing a lot of valuations, some discounted cash flows, kind of nerdy stuff. But when you look at it, those businesses are easy to replicate. There's not a lot that you're really protecting, right? There's not a lot that I can really build up and get a decent multiple on. And so, I think they're very great in the sense of I can get cash flow positive within 30 days if you kind of know what you're doing and you're being serious about it. Right. Whereas private label is going to take a little bit more time. That's an investment for the future. I view a wholesale business model as a cash flow business where private label is more something you're looking to expand the value of your equity over a long period of time and potentially exit and so, it depends on what you're optimizing for. Joe: There's definitely a difference between the two, because the private label businesses that are growing like crazy, those folks are not taking a whole lot of money out of the business. They're constantly putting it back into inventory to try to keep up. But you said you said sourcing by looking out in the marketplace; Amazon, if that's what we're talking about, to see what other people are selling and then sourcing the product from the brand owner. So, we're talking about brands that have multiple sellers on Amazon in this particular case and you are then going to compete against the other sellers on Amazon as well, correct? Dillon: That's correct. Absolutely. Joe: All right, that doesn't sound very attractive. How do you compete against the others? How do you do a better job on your listings and your ratings and reviews and your pricing and things of this nature? Dillon: This is where it becomes an antiquated business model, in my opinion. And again, not in a negative tone where it comes down to relationships. So, a lot of people are jumping into the Amazon space want that lifestyle business, right. What a lot of people kind of project as this is what it's like to sell on Amazon. The reality of it is it's a lot of phone calls. It's a lot of old school relationship building. It's understanding that… Joe: We all have to do that. Dillon: I know right. Joe: It's now like rocket science. Yeah, it sounds much simpler than trying to figure out the thickness of a corrugated box that you're going to import from China. Dillon: 100%. I've said for the past three or four years that wholesale is simple, not easy. It's simple enough. I mean, we can sketch the entire business model on a napkin, and I've done that. It's not easy because it's a lot more work. Now, that's not a bad thing, right? This is not sending a bunch of emails to manufacturers in China and playing that kind of game. This is actually jumping on the phone and having a real conversation with somebody. What's different about wholesale and why it's uncomfortable for a lot of people is that you are essentially doing a sales job; you are calling a brand to sell them on allowing you to give them your money. It's a bit backwards, right? But that's kind of what it is. And so a lot of people get stuck where they jump into these relationships and they're trying to get these accounts and they're like I keep getting denied. Why won't they take my money? I'm trying to give them money. And what a lot of people have to learn, first and foremost, is the value add that you are bringing to the table is not your money, it's the relationship. What else can you do for that brand? Because what you're not doing is necessarily just jumping on the listing and taking another slice of the pie. You're strategically looking to increase the sales volume here, right? You're looking at running PPC campaigns, you're looking at listing optimization, and you're looking at how can I help my supplier negate other sellers. I keep going below minimum advertised price so, mat price. You're looking at this as a very strategic business model if you're doing it correctly and I think a lot of people view it too simplistically. And again, it is simple, but when you approach it from an operation standpoint as too simple, I think you negate the requirements that enable you to be successful. Does that make sense? Joe: Yeah, they're looking at the wrong things. Dillon: 100%. Joe: They're not looking at the most important thing, which is the relationship. With wholesale accounts, with wholesale clients, you've had friends; I mean, you're in the circles, people that you work with. How many wholesale brand relationships do they have or have to have; sorry, I know this is an unanswerable question with accuracy, in order to really make a good living out of it? Dillon: Sure. If you want to replace a job, the way I source, and the criteria I look for purchasing inventory, which is not super complex by any stretch of the imagination, 10 to 12 SKUs is pretty solid. I think you can get to a point where you're actually replacing job income and at least paying the bills. The cool thing about; so you have the spectrum, right, where private label is going to have like a handful; like a small amount of SKUs, in my opinion. One to two, obviously, you're trying to grow that over time, but if you look at the average it's probably a little bit less. Then on the other end of that spectrum, you have like retail and online arbitrage where it's like thousands upon thousands of SKUs. Wholesale is kind of somewhere in the middle, but leaning more towards the private label route. So a handful of great relationships is enough. You don't need to have 30 plus relationships. I think that's where you get really, really big but you don't really need that. You could do a quarter million in revenue with six to seven SKUs if they're the right kind of SKUs because it is repeatable and scalable. Joe: And what are your margins on that? What's left over for you at the end of the day, if you're doing a quarter million in revenue? Because if it's a private label, that's kind of doing a quarter million in revenue, there's not a lot left over. I guess maybe upwards of 50,000 maybe. But they're taking that money and they're putting it right back in inventory so there's not a lot of cash flow in that situation. Dillon: Yeah, it can vary. I've seen people have some pretty high margins. I've seen people take really, really slim margins. I look for at least 30% in gross margin. Obviously, the business expenses that's kind of going to be situational. But if I could do 30% outside of the business expenses, that's pretty good in my opinion. I think it's scalable. Joe: This is after Amazon fees. Dillon: That's correct. Joe: Okay, that's pretty good. That's pretty solid, actually. What about exclusivity? At what point do you get to be exclusive? Because in my view, that's going to make the business more sellable and have value. So, you're not only building cash flow but you're also building equity. Obviously you got to do better than everybody else and be really important to that relationship. Is that it? Dillon: For the most part, yeah. What's funny is it is that relationship and it's understanding that it just takes time; like any great relationship, it just takes time. So a lot of sellers jump in and say, hey, I just got this account, how do I get exclusive? You wait. You do a great job, you become their biggest buyer, you work with them, you add more value than just your money, and then you start to have that conversation over time. I had a friend, she started her Amazon business, it was doing well, and she followed up every two weeks for a year just to get an account. And not just like, hey, how's everything going? These are in-depth emails of, hey, I noticed this on your listing here's what I would recommend you do and gave them all of that knowledge. And eventually they let you know that that's a lot of work, what would it take for you to do that for us? Give me the account and I want exclusive rights. They go, you know what, let's test it for two weeks and if it if it pans out, we'll absolutely give you the exclusive rights. And she's got it now. Joe: Excellent. Yeah, I know that's the trick. Just again, help them. It is a ton of work so give it all the way and then they realize I really do understand the value of having you do it for me. Let's talk about competing on Amazon for the buy box and what Aura Repricing does because it's so very different than what most people have heard on this podcast because most people are content owners, SaaS owners, private label brand owners. They're not wholesale. Dillon: Yeah, so roughly 82% of organic sales come via the buy box. So that buy box is just that where you go as a consumer and hit one click purchase. That's what we call the buy box. When you're competing with other sellers on the same listing, you're not trying to optimize your listing to beat the other listings. That goes out the door. Now, it's about value. In terms of your price it obviously comes down to your competitive advantage in terms of getting cost lower from your supplier hence relationships matter. It comes down to seller feedback a lot of the times. So what we're having to do is stay competitively priced 24/7. And by the way, these things are changing every few seconds. Private label, you're used to set the price and maybe every now and then we'll change it. Joe: Yeah. Dillon: No, 24/7 here and so some of our larger users that have a few hundred thousand SKUs that are actively repricing, we're doing tens of thousands of price changes per second just for them. So, what we're having to do is say you can't do it yourself, it doesn't scale so let's hand that over to a computer with an algorithm with a set of rules that can say, you know what, the price just changed let's react to that as quickly as possible. And if doing so, we increased the amount of time you're in the buy box, which increases the amount of sales you get. Joe: What happens if you've got three products in the buy box, they're all the same brand, and two out of the three are using Aura Repricing? Dillon: Yes, we get this question a lot; what if everybody's using Aura at the same time? At that point, it comes down to two major things. One, your strategy because you have some control over that. Some people are willing to be more aggressive than others. And then number two, what's really more important, in my opinion, is your cost. A lot of sellers make the assumption that we got the same costs. I know what I paid for so therefore, I theoretically know what you paid for it. That's not true. I could have lower cost because I have a better relationship or I have more capital to play with. So, I'm purchasing in larger quantities, in which case I'm getting quantity breaks on my cost, in which case I can be more aggressive in my price. So, it comes down to those major two things. Joe: Okay, what else can people that are a wholesaler do to improve their rankings, listings, and so on and so forth on Amazon? Dillon: Yeah, one of the things we've seen; forecasting with wholesale is very important, just like it is with private label. However, it's a little bit different. So, if I'm not mistaken, a lot of private label people are purchasing like three months' worth of inventory because you have a lead-time for manufacturing. For us, it's like every two to four weeks we're placing restock orders. So, we're trying to get dense from when the capital goes out of the business to when it comes back with profits as small as possible. Joe: So, it's two to four weeks if you just average to three I mean that's a quarter of the working capital that you need for a private label business. Dillon: 100%. So, we're looking at stuff like that. What's important there was a lot of forecasting won't factor in regional distribution. And what I mean by that is a lot of times you can take a SKU that you're selling on and you have repeat sales and let's say you're moving a hundred units per month like clockwork. You testing increasing that to 200 can actually have a larger distribution in terms of where your SKUs are in the country and now you're starting to get access to what's called a regional buy box and you actually start to see a little bit more sales from that. I didn't believe it at first and then I tested it with a few selling friends, and sure enough, they increased sales by just doing that. So you don't have just the one global buy box, although that's what we're able to focus on as developers. You also have a regional buy box. Joe: And Aura Repricing can have an impact on that? Dillon: That's correct. That comes basically down to where is your inventory today, like right now. Joe: And how do you control that again with Amazon? Dillon: Increased inventory. Joe: Just spend more money and have more inventory and then you're going to… Dillon: Yeah, it's a test for sure. Joe: And you can do that over time, obviously, if you have personal overhead. Dillon: Absolutely. Joe: Okay, tell me about Aura Repricing and when did you launch it? To me, honestly, the development of this must have been crazy. I mean, you did finance and M&A; is your business partner a coder or a developer? Dillon: Yeah, so me and my co-founder, James, met actually via Instagram. So, we were both wholesale sellers, separate of each other and we just started to meet up once a week via Skype back in the day and just, hey, what's going on? What's new? He was kind of helping me scale my business because his was already at seven. Mine was at six figures so he was helping me understand some cash flow stuff that I needed to learn. And eventually he was like, hey, by the way, I'm at UMass and I am an engineering student. I'm already starting to work on some side projects. Do you want to partner up? And that's when we started to launch Vendrive. So, Aura, the beta took roughly eight to nine months of him by himself, because I'm not an engineer. I'm not a coder. I can script some stuff and that's about it. Joe: Yeah. Dillon: So that was him pretty much working 80, 90 hour weeks for eight to nine months, just grinding it out and we got the beta up. We tested with 20 to 30 users just from day one just to get that feedback loop going. Launched my winter break between semesters in December of 2018 and then we launched that and I had 50 users paying and we just started a feedback loop and scaling from there. Joe: And you both finished college? Dillon: We did. Yeah, we both finished college at the same time and now we're actually; we were fully remote. I was in Florida, now we're in Boston and we have our first like large office which you can see back here. We have the walls painted and the whiteboard is up, and we're actually hiring three engineers in the next month or two. Joe: Very cool. That's a great success story, man. Dillon: Yeah, thanks. Joe: I know that you said he was in college and you were in college at same time but developing it in college; doing seven figures in revenue while in college is pretty impressive. So let's say he's doing a million, he's doing maybe 300,000 in cash flow, in profit, even if you divide by two while a student in college, that's pretty damn impressive. Dillon: It's not bad. Yeah, it's definitely not bad. That's the thing about wholesale is I tell people, it can be at whatever scale you want. I think it's difficult to really take a private label brand and just be like, oh, I just kind of want to make a little extra cash. When I started mine again, I went back to school, and I was like if this thing just pay my bills and allows me to focus on school full time and get through that and not take six years to get through, it's kind of a solid win. And to be honest, that's kind of where I got it and I was happy with that. And then once I graduated, it's like cool now, we can go full force. And really I did like two semesters before because Aura started to really scale and outpace itself, which was awesome. But yeah, I think it's cool thing. Joe: Let's get back to the repricing part, because if I'm the wholesale owner, how am I going to work with Aura and Aura Repricing to determine how low it goes? Is this simply a matter of math and numbers and what my relationship is; how does it work? Dillon: So you have two major ways of setting a min max. We always require a minimum and a maximum price. This is the range of which Aura is allowed to play within because we don't want to go too low and not too high and all that good stuff. You can manually set that. Some people have their own formulas, some people just take current buy box price and reduce that by 30%. What I typically recommend is the second option, which is an automated option. So, you can set that based on an ROI. We'll actually import your cost that you give us or you're using a tool like Inventory Lab to store that. So, we'll import those and you'll say a minimum I want 20% ROI. What we'll do is we'll factor in your cost and then the Amazon fees, obviously factoring in that 20% ROI and say, okay, here's your calculated min price. We'll automatically set that for all your SKUs. So we create different strategies and those strategies can be assigned to a group of SKUs, one SKU, your entire account; it's really up to you. And then however you want to set those min max prices, you can definitely do that. Joe: That's pretty impressive. Dillon: Yeah. Joe: When it comes to wholesale, again, I'm a little ignorant on it, because it's probably a well-known brand; I would assume or a well enough known brand are people searching for the brand name and therefore there's not as much sponsored ads or are people doing sponsored advertising as well? Dillon: This is what's interesting, I know ads are very prominent and expensive for private label. What's interesting is when I started testing paid ads on wholesale, they were actually very cheap. And for whatever reason, the brands themselves do not seem to be doing that on Amazon. They don't. They just let the sales happen and they don't progress with it, period. The opportunity is that it's less competitive because from my personal experience, what I've done is I've created ads targeting the brand name and the product name and not the type of product. So the proverbial garlic fresh, right. Joe: [Inaudible 00:22:36.5]. Dillon: Yeah, but we're going to do as an example, Nike, blah, blah, blah. When you're doing that they're super cheap and very scalable. I had a product that retailed for $329.95, it was costing me an additional $5 per sale via paid ads, and they're already doing 30 to 40 units per month organically. But that netted me $55 net profit so minus the $5 we're still doing 50 bucks. So I'm able to increase my volume. I'm trading five bucks for 50 bucks at this point. Joe: Sure. Dillon: [inaudible 00:23:11.3] oh, that's expensive, five bucks. I'm like, not really when you do the math on it. Joe: Absolutely, you're paying five bucks and you're getting 50 bucks back. That's a good return. Dillon: Yeah, I'm not even very good at it. That's the important part. Joe: Are you doing any video ads; do you have the options to do whatever you want or can you not do video ads for wholesale? Dillon: I've yet to see any restrictions on that. I haven't done the video ads. There's this weird dichotomy where there's some things you should be willing to do for your brands and then there are some things that are just going to cost too much. It's very ROI driven. So, some brands are going to do that themselves and that's going to help you organically. Some sellers, if you have the right exclusive agreement, it can make sense. It just comes down to the math where it really will... Joe: We just had Judson Morgan on from www.Butter.la and he talked everybody through how to do videos from your iPhone or a Pixel, and it's not a lot of dough. An unboxing, if you will. You're making it natural and normal and he talked about the lighting and all that stuff. That's what I'm talking about. He talked about the bump in conversion rate with videos, either video ads or videos in your listings. I know that with private label, they get six or seven; maybe six to eight images that they're allowed to have and one of them can be video. Normally it's pushed to the very end. Do you do that with wholesale as well, the video, the unboxing, and things of that nature? Dillon: You do to a certain degree. So, part of the value add to the brand, again, is not just your capital. It's looking at where the listing itself can be optimized. A lot of sellers are hesitant to do that stuff because all that work is not just coming back to you. It's coming back to all the other sellers. And so that's where it gets kind of interesting, where there's some growth hacks, so to speak, that are only going to come back to you as the seller. So you're not really increasing competition's volume as well. I'm of the opinion if it raises all boats, I'm still probably willing to do it because I'm still getting a positive ROI on that it just depends on the person. So, I'm a huge fan of a growth strategy that I kind of created actually from Amazon affiliate sites. So, I was looking at different brokers. I'm just looking at what's for sale in the Amazon space. I'd like to keep a look at multiples and what's being sold. I was like, you know what, these Amazon affiliate sites are genius. They're there to make money and move inventory because that's when they get paid. So then I said, well, what happens when I start to reach out to these site owners and say, you know what, I sell a grill thermometer, you have a bestbarbecue.com Amazon affiliate site, what happens when I get you to replace your $200 grill thermometer with my $329 one, does that actually increase sales? And if we can structure the URL correctly, all of the sales are coming straight to me, not just anybody who happens to be in the buy box at the moment. It turns out you can. So, there's some more strategy there in terms of growth but that's where you have to really think through the relationship you have. If it's a very short term seasonal relationship, I may not be willing to go to that extent because it is a lot of work. However, if it's a brand that I want to work with for a long period of time, that's different. And I've always told people to approach it that way. If I don't in my mind think that I can work with a brand for the next 12 plus months, I really don't see the point in it. I'm not opportunistic in the way I approach wholesale. Joe: You're blowing my mind that you're 28 years old, I got to tell you that. Dillon: I appreciate it. Thank you. Joe: All right. So, Aura Repricing, anybody that does any wholesale got to go to Aura Repricing. Check it out and see what Aura repricing could do for them. Let's talk also about the two podcasts; I think you've got two podcasts or is it one? Anything else you want people to know about you and things of that nature before we wrap it up here? Dillon: Sure. So, I kind of got sick of the $3,000 courses. I'm not anti-course by any stretch of the imagination. Joe: We just launched one for $3,000. Dillon: So, I decided I was going to share everything that I knew, which is I'm not an expert in my opinion, but I know some stuff and so I'm willing to share everything that I do know. So if you go to www.Vendrive.com/blog, I've pretty much written some crazy in-depth articles on wholesale in terms of overcoming objections with suppliers, the cash flow management of it; all the fun nitty-gritty stuff. And of course, Wholesale Made Easy, which is the podcast. I'm not running that active anymore. That was structured to be like an evergreen podcast where it's not short-term tactics. It's foundational stuff like we're talking about here that if you listen to it a year from now, it's still going to apply. We do have the new podcast called Welcome to Growth, which is me and my co-host, Jonathan. It's way more casual and it's more just me and him going back and forth every Thursday on different topics. Joe: That's where I heard your first. I'm like I like these guys, they don't have any scripts at all. It's perfect for me. Dillon: We literally show up that morning. We might text the night before and say, hey, here's three topics that I would like to talk about. We'll pick one and just riff on it for about an hour. Joe: Yeah, it's awesome and you're a wealth of knowledge. We need to talk more about wholesale again someday. Thanks for coming on the podcast. I appreciate it. Dillon: Yeah, thanks for having me.

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Starting and Scaling an Amazon Business for Exit With FBA Expert Kellianne Fedio

Middle Market Mergers and Acquisitions by Colonnade Advisors

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 25, 2020 33:35

On this episode of our podcast, we speak with Kellianne Fedio, an Amazon consultant. She discusses selling her previous business for seven figures and the creation of her new podcast. Her journey is long and interesting, with a lot of twists and turns. Here, she shares her entire story and offers great advice to those who want to follow in her footsteps. Tune in to hear Kellianne's great insights. Topics: When she stumbled on Ecommerce, she realized it was a good fit. How Amazon has changed since she started. Why outside funding sources are necessary. The importance of Mastermind groups. Living through rocky periods. Explaining rebates. Kellianne's consulting methods. Resources: Kellianne on LinkedIn Kellianne on Facebook Digital Shelf Strategy Quiet Light Podcast@quietlightbrokerage.com Transcription: Mark: Joe, we know that first-hand experiences of people that have gone through the process of building a business, preparing it for sale, going through that exit, that tends to be some of the greatest stories and stories where we can get a lot of lessons back to us that we can apply and learn how to optimize our own businesses for a better exit. I know you had Kellianne on recently and she shared her story of building her business and going through that exit and now her current pivot where she's starting up a podcast on this very topic. Joe: Yeah, Kellianne is good friends with another good friend of ours, Paul Miller, who owns Cozy Phones and Kellianne had a seven-figure exit. Technically, I guess it would be early this year that she closed on the transaction; early 2020. And she's learned a lot through that process and now she's sharing that experience and the knowledge and the networking and the story of building a business on Amazon; all the resources and connections that you need to make in order to build it well and build it right with an eventual exit in mind. So she shares her entire story and gives real tips and advice from her own direct experience during the interview. Joe: Hey, folks, Joe Valley here from Quiet Light Brokerage and the Quiet Light Podcast, Today I've got Kellianne Fedio and I had to say that out loud several times to make sure I pronounced it right. Kelly is a former attorney, Amazon seller, seven-figure exit that she's had recently. And she's going to be moving into helping people build their Amazon businesses for a stronger exit down the road. Kelly, welcome to the Quiet Light Podcast. Kelly: Thank you so much for having me, Joe. I'm such a big fan of everything you guys are doing over at Quiet Light and have done for the past several years so it's a real honor to be here. Joe: I appreciate that. I did more of an intro just now than I normally do, but I didn't read from the script. But why don't you go ahead and tell us who you are and your story and where you came from and what you've done here? Kelly: Sure. So I started out as an attorney in a former life, and after having kids, getting married, I became very unhappy in that profession. That was just a lot of long hours, not enough pay at least for what I was doing, and I really wanted to be there for my kids. So I became a stay at home mom for a while and loved every minute of it. And then when my kids started elementary school, I was like, okay, what's my next chapter here? And I never would have guessed it would have been entrepreneurship. I was very traditional type-A personality in high school. I'm going to get all A's. I'm going to go to college. I'm going to go to law school. I'm going to be an attorney. And that was like my plan for the rest of my life. And so fast forward to several years later, after having practiced law for 10 years and now having kids and a husband and a wonderful family life, I was like what am I passionate about? What can I put out there into the world that not only is going to hopefully bring in income to our family but also that I could be excited about doing? And so I just knew it had to have something to do with online; being online and creating value online. And so, like a lot of other entrepreneurs getting involved in the online space, I tried a lot of different things, made tons of mistakes, had tons of failures, learned a lot, loved every minute of that experience, but sooner or later stumbled upon e-commerce and pretty quickly realized this is something that I really could see myself doing for the foreseeable future. And so around that time, Amazing Selling Machine had become pretty prominent in terms of the Amazon education space. So I was in ASM3 and of course… Joe: I got to ask, what number were you? The early ones were the good years. They're coming back around. They're doing good stuff again. I talked to them last week. Kelly: They are. They're always innovating, always doing new stuff so, I mean I always bring that out when I'm on podcasts or other interviews, because if it wasn't for that course my life would be a lot different. So I met an amazing group of entrepreneurs with the affiliate group that I joined. It was Ryan Moran and his tribe. I met a lot of amazing people. I'm still friends with them to this day, and really just dug in and had some pretty early success early on. So it was really, really exciting and I knew that this was what I was going to be focusing on, probably forever. Joe: How did you choose your first product? Kelly: I chose something that I thought I could build a brand around. So I'm very passionate about talking to other Amazon sellers about when they're thinking about how to start their business. You know, people always ask, well, how do you pick a product? First and foremost, you have to build a brand these days. When I started, you could throw up kind of anything and just with a little luck and… Joe: How many years ago was it that you started? Kelly: 2014. Joe: Okay. Kelly: Yeah, so it was a while ago. Things have drastically changed, right, in the Amazon space? Joe: A little bit, yeah. Kelly: Yeah, a little bit. And so even back then; and I had no branding experience or consumer product experience, but I knew that this first product, I could build a brand around it and actually wasn't a product that had a huge demand at the time, but it was a product that I knew that I would love and that I knew that other active women would love. So that's really what I built the brand around and just continued to develop products; not all winners, lots of failures… Joe: Additional products all within that brand, yes? Kelly: Exactly, that would serve a core audience and solve a problem or need. Joe: How many products did you launch initially, was it just one? Kelly: It was just one. Joe: And it was a success out of the gate? Kelly: Not right out of the gate. So I launched it in August but by that Q4, I had reached seven figures on top-line revenue so it was really, really exciting. Joe: Cool, very exciting. Kelly: Just with one product, one variation. Joe: And probably not working as many hours as you did as an attorney. Kelly: No, I mean, I definitely was working a lot because I was still in learning mode. I mean, the thing about Amazon and e-commerce is you're not only learning the platform itself, but you're learning how to source overseas, perhaps, and manufacturing and product design and advertising and marketing. So there's a lot of different skill sets you have to learn. So I definitely was really, really passionate about learning as much as I could. Joe: When you learn all of those things, do you think it's things you need to learn and then do yourself or do you think that there are certain experts that you can outsource certain things to like photography or listing creation or whatever it might be; importing from China, dealing with different things? Are there certain aspects to an Amazon business you feel that should be outsourced and things that you should do in-house as the entrepreneur that started the business? Kelly: Oh, absolutely. In the beginning, I think you should do everything with the exception of maybe photography. Super specific skill sets, like graphic design or photography certainly, you can outsource that early on. But everything else I would say you have to learn first and foremost yourself before you can effectively outsource it. And there are I mean, so many great service providers now that have obviously spawned in this Amazon industry not only software services but also other types of services, whether it's Amazon brand management or writing listings, things like that. So now it's all out there, but you should really learn the components and the strategy behind it first before outsourcing. Joe: How much money did you start with Kellianne? Kelly: I started with about $5,000. Joe: Okay, and did you have to borrow more to keep up with inventory? Because that's the story that I consistently hear. I started out with X and then when you dig deeper the business didn't fund the growth. Did yours fund the growth or did you have to go and borrow more? Kelly: In the beginning, it did. But yes, even if you reinvest all of your profits, there's no way you can grow initially without getting capital from outside sources. So about a year into it, I was able to get Amazon Lending so that was great. But before that, it was a lot of credit cards. And then early on, I actually was able to get a line of credit after the first year. But until then, it was really credit cards. And I wouldn't recommend people doing that but sometimes it's just a necessary evil to get where you need to go. Joe: Yeah, I was playing golf with a mentor years ago before I grab my head and one of the things he said to me was get a line of credit set up now; before you need it, get that line of credit set up because you never know when you're going to need it. And I see so many people that are struggling to keep up with purchasing more and more inventory for growth or developers if it's a SaaS business because they don't have the ability to stroke a check when it's necessary. They go hunting for that line of credit when they need it as opposed to getting it set up beforehand so I think it's great to get it set up beforehand. So you hit six figures you said by the end of Q4 your first year… Kelly: Seven figures, I was very lucky. Yeah. Joe: And did a million in revenue in 2004. Kelly: Mm-hmm. Joe: Don't you like how I could do the seven-figure translation to a million? That was really; okay, all right. Anyway was it all with one SKU or did you add additional SKUs as well? Kelly: By that next quarter of 2015 then I started adding more SKUs, but it was really just on one product. And so that talk about funding the inventory for that, I got to say it was just a lot of luck. I was able to forge a really strong relationship with my supplier very early on in China without ever having met him. And he gave me terms once he saw that this thing; and that normally doesn't happen that early on in the relationship. Joe: No. Yeah, I know. Kelly: He was able to give me terms. So that's another way that I was able to fund that growth so quickly that that first year. Joe: Yeah, if you can get to China, folks, we did a podcast with Athena Severi from China Magic and before that with Dan from Titan Network all about negotiating terms with your Chinese manufacturers, and it does exactly what Kellianne did, which was it gives you more cash flow for buying more inventory. And if you can get terms, it's a lot better than an Amazon Loan because the interest rate is very different. It's nonexistent in most cases. During that initial journey Kellianne if we summarize things so far, you took ASM3, you invested $5,000, you did a million dollars in revenue. Sounds easy, but I'm sure it wasn't, right? Kelly: It was and I know it sounds easy and like I said, there was a lot of luck in there too. I'm not going to like take credit that it was just all my superpower genius. But I did have tremendous tenacity because between the time that I launched the product in August, it was like pushing a boulder uphill; August, September, October, November. It wasn't really till November that it really took off. And I had the foresight and maybe just stupidity to order a bunch of inventory in anticipation of Q4 and early on recognize that I could market this product as a gift in addition to just the primary keywords that were related to the product. So that was something that I did very early on and that allowed me to scale too because I was able to secure top positioning for keywords such as gifts for women, top Christmas gifts for women, things like that, very early on. So all of that came from me putting in the hard work of learning and masterminding, I can't underestimate the power of masterminding as well. I found a small group of; there were all guys, actually, I was the only girl. They are all amazed… Joe: So you were in charge essentially, right? Kelly: Yeah, sort of but we just were kindred spirits and we became very close and we would meet once a week and we were all building Amazon businesses, others went on to build SaaS businesses and all other types of businesses. They're all super successful entrepreneurs and that really made a huge difference in making me feel like I could really do this because I had other people in my corner so that was all. Joe: There's nothing more valuable than that and it didn't cost you anything. It sounds like there are groups that can get together just to help share information or you can join more formal groups like eCommerceFuel or EcomCrew Premium things of that nature. Kelly: Exactly. Joe: I think it's incredible. So let's talk money; ASM3, launched million dollars in revenue within the first year, you must be rolling in cash flow, yes? Kelly: No, absolutely not. Joe: I knew the answer to that. Kelly: I wish. Joe: How much did you; other than distributions just to make you feel good to pay taxes that were going to be due, did you put yourself on payroll or take any money out of the business for you and your family? Kelly: No, not the first couple of years I did not. And I was again, lucky that I had a husband who had a full-time career and that's the money that we relied on to support our family. So starting this business, that wasn't the mindset that we were going to do this to support our family. This was hopefully something that we could build into something bigger and perhaps fuel some bigger investing goals and things like that. Joe: So you would not recommend someone listening quit their job and they've got $10,000 and they're going to do $5,000 to start the Amazon business and live off the rest until revenues start rolling; bad idea, right, because they're going to run out of money very fast? Kelly: Absolutely, I would never recommend somebody quit their day job. You really need to start any business, in my opinion, as a side hustle. I mean, even my husband and I to this day, like right now, I'm really getting into real estate investing and he's getting into day trading and we're going to wait until we become masters of that and really start making significant sums of money before he would ever consider quitting his job. Joe: Yeah, good advice. All right, so 2016 rolls around how do things go? Did you have any rocky periods where you thought this isn't for me or did revenue just continue to climb? Kelly: Oh, no. There was a lot of rocky periods. So back then there was no brand registry, there was no; just counterfeiters galore and the initial product that I had launched all of a sudden came on everybody's radar. I can't remember if by then there were tools such as Jungle Scout or things like that to look at what sales revenue these products were doing. But it definitely; people caught on and started copying my exact listings, the exact product. I mean, certainly, I didn't have any proprietary rights. The product was a private label product, but definitely, competition grew and revenue; I was able to maintain revenue because I diversified my keyword traffic and wasn't going with what everybody else is going for. Slowly but surely the market grew. But my market share also grew with it and then declined at some point because so many competitors came in. Joe: Did your margins tighten; did you have to drop the price too? Kelly: Yes, I did. I remember actually, so Q4 of my first year of selling, I think I sold that particular product at a price point of I think as high as $35. And now if you were to look at this product on Amazon it ranges between $10 and maybe $17 tops. Joe: Wow. Kelly: Yeah, and that happens. I mean you don't get to; that product was still a winning product by the time I sold my business but I knew that this couldn't sustain me forever. I needed to obviously continue rolling out products, right? Joe: And that's how you combatted it; you continued to roll out new SKUs? Kelly: Yes, absolutely. Joe: How did you determine what to do next in terms of SKU expansion? Kelly: I did make a lot of mistakes there. I launched a lot of products that failed. Joe: How many? Just out of curiosity. Kelly: How many failures? Joe: Yeah, after the initial launch out of the next 10, how many were successes, and how many were failures? Kelly: I would say I was probably at a 50:50 rate. Joe: That's good. Kelly: I would have liked it to be higher. And I think nowadays, with all of the tools that are available and with the mindset that you have to cut losers quickly; that was my biggest downfall, is it was so hard for me to give up on a product that I spent not only time but a lot of money on developing and then to just let it go. That was really hard for me. I was emotionally tied and that's one area that if I had cut those losers quicker, I would have freed up my cash flow and been able to expand and scale a lot quicker and more efficiently. Joe: Let's go into that a little bit further. Let's define a loser in terms of products. Is it one that is negative profit-wise or is it at 5% profit where the others are at 43% profit? How do you determine what a loser is and then what action do you take with it? Kelly: Well, it also depends on the time period. So when you're launching a product; everybody has their own time frame, but I kind of give it a three-month cycle of pushing it out, launching, ranking it, advertising, heavy on advertising so you're usually in the red. At least I was okay with being in the red at that point, but then it should start to pick up after that if it's going to be a winning product. If you've done everything right with your launch, and ranking strategy, it should just start to kind of take off on its own, really. Joe: A three month period is that what you're okay? Kelly: Yeah, about three months. Joe: Okay. Kelly: At least for me back then. I would say now it's probably a longer time window. I would say probably about six months. But there becomes this like intuitive sense of you're still continuously pushing a boulder uphill with your nose rather than it's starting to gain some traction and go downhill. And so you've got to know when is that point to cut it off and it definitely took me a lot of failed products and a lot of wasted money and time to finally realize. Even up until when I sold my business; I mean, the buyer who bought my business, there were quite a few SKUs that he was just like I don't want to continue with these because these are just not making enough profit. They were profitable but not making enough profit. So everybody has their own standards. Joe: So yeah, there's SKU balance that offsets risk. If you've got one SKU doing 60% or 70% of your revenue, some buyers will perceive it as more risk other buyers will perceive it as less work, and they like that. Kelly: Yeah. Joe: How do you; I mean, if you're at a six month period now in your assessment of really it takes that long to push that boulder uphill until it's profitable and then you determine whether or not you get to keep that SKU that you've worked so hard on or if it's not profitable enough and you move on. How often are you launching SKUs? It sounds like you're probably needing to launch them every couple of months just to keep up and stay ahead of the game. Is that the case or is that something you recommend? Kelly: Yeah, it definitely depends on your product mix and what your revenue goals are and what capital you have to work with and your cash flow; all those things. But ideally, if you could be launching a new product I would say at least every quarter but there are sellers out there that are launching products every week or every two weeks. It just depends. I did not have nor did I want to have some big, huge behemoth of a business where I had a million employees and I was doing all the product design in the beginning; myself, along with my manufacturers, maybe hiring some outside design people to create changes to existing products to make them better. That was always kind of my MO. And really, you have to have a certain amount of capital that is allocated to new product development and know where that line is because then you don't want to let your other product suffer either and that's what's bringing cash in and keeping the lights on, right? So there's a fine balance there and I really do think that comes down to cash flow management; knowing your cash flow. Joe: And that's something so many people fail at. I probably looked at 8,000 profit and loss statements over the last eight, almost nine years now, and I'll be honest with you, probably 70% of them are inaccurate; wrong cash accounting, not using Quick Books or Xero, but the audience knows that. I know that's my thorn in my side. Let's talk about favorite tools. I mean, you obviously have figured out the Amazon game. You must have used some tools along the way. Have there been any that have stood out that you kind of you think must have? I mean, you mentioned Jungle Scout a few minutes ago. What tools do you use in your Amazon business or recommend as you work with new Amazon owners now to help them fine-tune their business and get it ready to sell? Kelly: Well, I wouldn't say I would at this point in time recommend a specific tool because there's a lot of competitors in the Amazon SaaS space, right? But you want a good tool for first and foremost, keyword research and keyword tracking. So, for example, Helium10 is a great one for that. But there are many others out there that are very good. So I'm not going to say that Helium10 is the best. They are one of the best and I like that tool a lot. And then you're going to want to have a tool for launching and ranking. These days that's all about rebates and so I recommend Six Leaf. My good friend Joe Junfola created Six Leaf and he's got a very new and exciting rebate option in there now and I'm helping my friend Paul Miller with his business in using that. Joe: Really? He's my friend, too. Kelly: What's that? Yes, your friend too; our good friend. Joe: Our friend. Kelly: Yeah, and so if you don't have outside traffic that you can send to your listings and have like a system for that, you definitely are going to need to do some I would say giveaways but these days that means rebates. And so there are other platforms that can do that but that's the one I recommend for that. And then Helium10 basically has all the other components that I would recommend, such as product research and keyword tracking. There are so many different tools out there and they've all kind of evolved over time and they all kind of overlap and what was most frustrating to me by the time that I sold my company is I had so many different tools. And even though they did a lot of the same functions, one did one better than the other and so I felt like I just had a lot of bloat in there and a lot of things that I could cut out. And so I wish somebody would just like focus on one thing and just do it right. Joe: Yeah, because if you wasted a thousand dollars a month, that's going to cost you an awful lot in the sale of your business. Kelly: Yeah. Joe: Can we talk about rebates for just a second? I want you to educate me and educate the audience because a rebate to me; from a novice standpoint and I don't sell on Amazon, I did once upon a time but it'd be a conflict for me now as I see it. Plus, I don't ever want to import from China. Kelly: I don't blame you. Joe: Yeah, I don't want to; I was at Helium10 back when it was a man he had Illuminati Mastermind and I was at the event. It was in Cancún and somebody was up on stage and she was literally talking about importing from China, talking literally about the thickness of the corrugated box that your products have to be in. And I swear to God I felt sick three times and I thought never will I import from China. Rebates, you're giving something away. They're getting a discount back or they're doing a review and they're getting a discount. Explain how it worked because it sounds like it's definitely against terms of services depending upon how it's used. Kelly: Now, I don't think it's against terms of services. I mean there's a lot of rebate services out there now. Joe: What is a rebate? Kelly: A rebate is the purchaser gets to purchase the products and then they get reimbursed the full amount usually to be most effective or it could be some percentage of that amount. So traditional retailers have been doing rebates for years. I mean, it's a very common thing in marketing. Joe: So there's no hey, we'll give you 100% refund for review it's just buy it and we're giving you your money back and that improves the algorithm rankings; organic rankings. Kelly: It's a keyword ranking strategy. I would not use it as a review strategy; absolutely not. Joe: Yeah, okay the review strategy definitely gets against terms of services. Okay, thank you. I needed to hear that. Kelly: I mean, I wouldn't say it's necessarily against terms of service if you're asking for a review after the fact. But it just can be on that blurred line that you could potentially; and I haven't heard of anybody getting taken down for this but if you were to rebate a customer and then after the fact ask for a review then Amazon could potentially look at that as gaming the system. So you just want to be really careful and I would just recommend that sellers don't ask reviews for customers that they've given rebates to. Joe: What about is it cheaper or should it be a dual strategy of sending traffic from outside; buying traffic on Facebook that would drive directly using a keyword directly to the Amazon page, is that going to have a similar effect as rebates, cost less, cost more, or would you recommend a dual strategy of both of those or have you not sent traffic from outside sources like Facebook? Kelly: Well, that's a great question, Joe, but the rebate is just kind of like the end result of what the customer is getting but the traffic and the quality of the traffic is the most important thing. So a lot of these rebate services that are out there, they're just for using the same audience that they've built on Facebook over and over again. And Amazon now is so sophisticated they can tell that all that traffic is coming from the same source that's just this incestuous pool. So you really want to be careful of the services that you use. And ultimately, the best way is always to build your own list, to have your own audience whether that's a mini chat list or an email list or if you're a master of Facebook Marketing and you know how to target and you know what kind of audiences are really going to go and actually buy your product and if you have enough profit margin built into your product to do Facebook advertising. That's a whole another thing in and of itself. But for ranking purposes, you need to send high-quality traffic and a lot of these ranking or rebate services you just have to be careful of where they're getting their traffic from. Joe: Okay, so far we've established you as an Amazon expert; one that's been there, done that. I had to ask a couple of questions; dumb questions, if you will, to get us to where we are right now. Let's talk about digital shelf strategy, your business, where you're going to actually help Amazon sellers. If somebody out there in the audience is thinking that they want to exit their business someday in the future, or if they're just struggling and they're barely able to keep up with inventory demands, not taking any money out of the business and they're pulling their hair out, how are you going to be able to help them? Kelly: Great question. I started digital self-strategy when I was still a seller because I've over the years, I love Amazon. I live, breathe, eat, sleep, Amazon. I still do. And I would get questions from people anywhere from one-off questions to people wanting me to help them with their businesses. And so I have been very, very generous I feel like with my time wanting to help people. But sometimes if it needs to be a little bit more work or more time spent with somebody then I set up this agency just so I could have a way to work with sellers ongoing. And so between that and then another new business that I started with, Paul Miller, Amazing Exits, the consulting piece of that is really helping sellers with being able to look at their businesses holistically and help them figure out what are the strengths and weaknesses of that business. So kind of like a SWAT analysis and being able to help them with the things that are going to really move the needle and increasing the value of their business, whether or not they ever want to sell it because if you increase the value of your business, you're going to be spending out more cash flow. It's going to make you healthier in the long run. And then it'll certainly make it a lot more attractive to a potential buyer someday if you've got all your financials in order and you've got a really healthy profit margin and ROI and all the other things that go into having a valuable and sellable business. So it's a one-stop-shop, really, in terms of being able to look at a business, identify what are its strengths and weaknesses. For the weaknesses, we want to connect them with the resources that are going to help them fix those weaknesses and then ultimately be kind of their white-glove concierge along the way to a successful exit. Joe: And the Amazing Exits Podcast, that's where you're going to talk to people that have actually sold their businesses and have those resources, those experts on as well. Kelly: Yes, that's going to be both. I mean, we are looking for as many sellers as we can who have exited so we definitely want to have those as guests on. But we're also featuring top experts such as yourself to talk about exit planning. We're really trying to make exit planning sexy. This is what I say all the time and to really… Joe: Good luck. Kelly: Well, we're very passionate about it. And I think that if we couch it in terms of making your business more valuable now, like do you want more money now in your bank account and your pocket to feel your life, to feel your investments? Well, that's what it takes to build a successful business. And you might not ever want to sell it, but you should be building a sellable asset and realize why you're doing this. Joe: You're preaching to the choir. Making exit sexy again or sexy to begin with is; I had David Wood on the podcast and one of his visions was for people that are planning to eventually sell their business to imagine themselves on the beach doing whatever they want because they've got enough money in the bank to live off of and that's the sexy part of it. Or if you're building a better business, it's kicking off more cash flow. You are struggling less. You're able to do the things that you want because you've got the money and that part is sexy as well. Accounting makes most people's eyes bleed. It's the foundation of understanding cash flow and running your business successfully to get a strong exit. As you know, Kelly, anyone listening that owns any kind of online business at this time odds are that their business is their most valuable asset. Also, if it's an e-commerce business that's growing odds are that more than 50% of the money they'll ever make from that business will come the day that they sell it. All of that combined should kick start them into wanting to do more exit planning or coaching or training or things; whatever you want to call it, just getting in shape. As you want to work out and get your body in shape you should exercise your exit strategy muscles so that you're in better shape for your eventual exit because you will have a better path to it, a better exit as well, and be better off afterwards so that you can all go on to your next adventures, whether it be start another online business or do what Kelly is doing which is consulting and helping other people or where she was just a few years ago. Kelly: I couldn't agree more. That's so well said. And I would just add to that then, I truly believe, Joe, that one of the fastest ways to build wealth is to build a business and in this case an Amazon business and sell it. And that's the word that I want to get out to people, is that this is, like you said, your most valuable asset, most likely. And I didn't retire after I sold my business. I made a nice chunk of change and now I'm able to invest that into cash-producing assets but I will never stop being an entrepreneur. But I have so much freedom; clarity now that I didn't have when I was on that hamster wheel of running the business. So I want to just be able to express that to other sellers that there is another option to get off the hamster wheel and you can sell and do this again if you want so you'll have a lot more freedom and peace of mind. Joe: And cash in the bank throughout though. Kelly: Yes. Joe: Great. Kelly, thanks so much for joining the Quiet Light Podcast. I appreciate it. We'll put URLs up in the show notes for people who want to reach out. Kelly is there any other way that they can or should find you? Kelly: Yes, absolutely. They can connect with me on LinkedIn. I'm pretty active over there. @KellianneFedio on Facebook and then they can also go toAmazingExits.com and sign up for our email list for when we get ready to launch the podcast later in August most likely. Joe: All right, she rolled her eyes a little bit here folks for those not watching. She's got a hopeful goal of August. I think it's going to be great whenever you launch it. If it takes an extra few weeks is not a big deal. Kelly, thanks for being in the Quiet Light Podcast. I appreciate it. Kelly: Thank you so much, Joe.

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MM M&A 005: It's All About Your Numbers

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 11, 2020 36:16

In this episode, Gina Cocking and Jeff Guylay continue their discussion around the due diligence process related to the sale of a company. This episode is part of a four-episode series exploring the due diligence process that began with 003 on the business aspects of the due diligence process. EP003: Business aspects of due diligence: https://coladv.com/podcasts/003/ EP004: Legal aspects of due diligence: https://coladv.com/podcasts/004-due-diligence-deep-clean-and-hygiene/ EP005: Accounting aspects of due diligence (today’s episode) EP006: Technology aspects of due diligence (coming soon) In today’s episode, we invite our featured guest, Joe Kaczmarek, to share his insights on how companies can best prepare for an M&A transaction. Joe is the National Fintech practice leader at RSM, a leading provider of audit, tax, and consulting services focused on the middle market. Show Notes: There are six key takeaways from the episode (35:17) Start early Review your financials monthly Keep books in GAAP (Generally Accepted Accounting Principles) Get an audit Prepare forecasts for your business and track achievement to forecast Invest in the finance department. If your goal is to sell your company, the number one action you should take (related to accounting and finance due diligence) is to get a good CFO In this episode, Colonnade Advisors addresses the following questions as related to the accounting aspects of due diligence: When should an owner start preparing to sell their company? (01:20) Gina: “It starts years in advance. At the very basic level, a business owner or leader of a company should be reviewing the financials on a monthly basis. The reason is to get comfortable with the cadence of their business so that they can talk to the financials.” Does a company need a public audit prior to selling the company? (1:40) Gina: “We recommend all companies have a financial audit for several years before they go to market.” What is the difference between an audit and a compilation? (01:58) Gina: “A compilation is when accountants come in and put your financials together for you. They may even do it on a GAAP basis. An audit means that the accounting firm is doing a deep dive into the numbers. They’re looking at bank reconciliations. They’re doing different types of testing for fraud and for receivables and payables, et cetera. It’s a very involved process, but it is a must for a business that is planning for a successful sale.” Do I need a financial forecast? (02:35) Gina: “A company should keep a forecast and measure themselves to the forecast and plan. The reason for this is twofold: 1) I believe that you only get to where you’re going if you plan for it, and 2) buyers are going to look at the company’s financial forecast and how they are doing compared to that forecast.” What other financial statements must be in order? (03:54) Gina: “Another good thing to prepare for a sale process is a monthly data book. This data book includes the income statement, cash flow statement, balance sheet, and MD&A (Management Discussion and Analysis).” How does a company select an accounting firm to work with on accounting due diligence? (06:25) Gina: “I usually recommend that companies not go with the local firm that does their tax returns. Typically (I recommend) a regional accounting firm, or a national one, because you need a team that can defend its choices in accounting principles interpretation.” When should a company start working on accounting due diligence? (08:20) Jeff (07:37): “The sooner the better. The first audit is the worst. After that, it gets a little bit easier. Getting that process rolling is important.” When is meeting the financial forecast key? (10:21) Gina: “The financial forecast is crucial when we’re actually selling the business. The key is when you’re in the sale process, from the moment we release that confidential information memorandum (CIM) until the check clears and the business is sold, the company has got to make its numbers.” What is the management team’s role in owning the forecast? (11:44) Jeff: “It’s important that the management team understands and owns the forecast because they’re going to have to live with it. The financial forecast obviously develops the metrics upon which you’re going to be judged either through management contracts, earn outs or just general performance. You really want to be confident that you’re going to hit the numbers one, two, three years out.” What is an MD&A (Management Discussion and Analysis)? (13:45) Gina: “A paragraph or a page and a half that explains the numbers, e.g. ‘Revenues were up by X because we sold Y more; expenses were down by Z because we lost three people in headcount.’” How should revenues be broken out? (14:12) Gina: “By number of products sold, pricing, number of customers; whatever metrics that are core to your business. Companies that can do that generally have a good finance department.” What are some common missteps Colonnade sees in accounting practices of middle market companies? (16:40) Gina: “The finance department is looked at as a cost center.” Owners keep the books themselves or use a part-time bookkeeper. When companies don’t hire a CFO, there’s a potential problem. What are some other missteps management can make when getting ready to sell their company? (18:00) Jeff: “When the CEO is the master of everything. He’s the head of sales, he’s the head of marketing, he’s the head of IT sometimes, and in a lot of cases, he or she is the CFO. That’s a problem because an investor could come in and say, ‘Well, I’m not going to pay $50 million for this one guy or this one woman. Where’s the team?’” When do you know that a company has the infrastructure to be sold? (18:35) Jeff: “The real enterprise value gets built when you say, ‘This is a business that is going to be my legacy, but I don’t need to be here as the CEO or the founder. I built this business. I built out a team. The finance function is all built out. The marketing function is built out. The sales function is built out. This business runs on its own. And so if you want me here or not, that’s fine, but my team is really more important than I am.” Why does a company wanting to be sold need a CFO? (19:00) Gina: “Without a CFO, when a buyer comes in, they will do a negative adjustment to your historical financial statements to fill that role. That CFO role will be built into your valuation regardless. So invest in the CFO. It’s going to be worth far more than not doing it.” What is the difference between GAAP and cash accounting? (20:22) Gina: “Here’s the non-CPA’s way of explaining GAAP. Under GAAP, the timing of your revenues and expenses need to match, and they need to also match the timing of your liabilities, which means if you are selling a service that is a service for six months, you receive the payment upfront, the revenue upfront, you’re going to have to recognize that revenue over six months.” What is an example of GAAP accounting vs. cash accounting? (21:00) Gina: “ A common example is payroll. Accruals should be done for payroll. Let’s say you pay your employees every other Friday. The month doesn’t always end on the fourth Friday, so you end up having to pay in the following month, let’s say the Wednesday the following month. (When you pay in the following month) you’re paying for the prior month’s work. You need to do an accrual for that payroll so it matches the month in which it occurred. So accruals need to be done under GAAP and revenue needs to be recognized in line with what the services or the products provide.” What industries can use modified cash accounting? (21:36) Gina: “We work a lot in the F&I (Auto Finance and Insurance) and administrator space. (These companies) can be sold on a modified cash basis. But that doesn’t happen in all industries.” How does modified cash accounting work when selling a business in the F&I or administrator space? (22:16) Jeff: The important thing is understanding the difference between the two accounting processes or procedures. In the cases where it’s beneficial to the clients to present themselves on a cash or a modified cash basis, we’re certainly going to do that to maximize value. There has to be a spreadsheet that says, here’s the audit according to GAAP, and here are the cash financials that we want you to value the company on, and here are the adjustments we’ve made to get there, and it has to be logical and make sense and be consistent.” Gina invites Joe Kaczmarek, an expert in audit tax and consulting services, to share his perspective on due diligence accounting aspects. What is the difference between an audit and a sell side Quality of Earnings (QOE)? (24:19) Joe: An audit is to go back and verify information at a point in time. We’re validating the accuracy of your balance statement and your income statement. When we do a quality of earnings (QOE) report, we’re really stripping out one-time expenses, one-time revenues, and coming down to a real accreditable earnings number on a cash basis. From a quality of earnings perspective, it’s also much broader.” How many years back should an audit go? (27:02) Joe: “What I typically say is, ‘If you want three years in the marketing documents, it typically presents the best if those are all audited.’ (Three years). But more importantly than how many years is having a firm that really understands the industry and is really nailing down those things that could come up in diligence.” What are the bare minimum processes and procedures a firm should have in place before they go to market? (28:02) Joe: “The big thing is having a CPA on staff and having that person really understand what’s required. We like to see monthly financial statements, on not only a cash basis but an accrual basis, a GAAP basis.” What else should companies thinking of selling consider? (28:34) Joe: “investing in your financial reporting group. That’s not something that’s providing revenue so it’s often overlooked. You really need to have the infrastructure there to be able to report and provide the information necessary to go through diligence.” How quickly should a company be able to close the prior month’s books? (29:07) Joe: “It really depends on the complexity of the organization and the systems they have in place. It can take two days to two months. (However,) those companies taking two months realize very quickly through this process that that’s not going to be adequate (fast enough). If it’s a private equity group coming in to acquire them, they’re going to need reporting on a monthly basis that’s going to be out within a week or two from the month-end or the year-end.” What is your view on QuickBooks? (30:36) Joe: “Depending on the industry that you work in, Quickbooks may be adequate. QuickBooks could be fine for smaller companies and midsize companies. But you’ve got to realize what the limitations with QuickBooks are (such as controls, access, and integration).” How should companies account for a PPP loan? (32:40) Joe: “There is going to be a portion of it that’s going to be forgiven, if not all of it. You should record it as debt. Then as you get approval for that forgiveness, that’s the point in time when it should flow through your income statement for GAAP purposes. If you look at a transaction, that’s one of those one-time items that will most likely be backed out, and I would say that’s non-operating revenue, so it should be down below the line.” What’s one piece of advice you would give a company that’s about to go through an M&A process? (33:47) Joe: “Engage a reputable firm to conduct sell-side due diligence. Sell-side due diligence firms will dig into the company’s financial information and figure out where there may be issues. If identified issues are likely to be deal-breakers, then the company will need to pause the process until the issues are fixed.” Featured guest bio and contact information: Joe Kaczmarek Email: joe.kaczmarek@rsmus.com Joe Kaczmarek services as the National Fintech leader at RSM. In this role, he is responsible for driving the firm's strategic objections in fintech, while assisting traditional financial service clients with their digital transformation. Joe also leads RSM's specialty finance practice for the Great Lake Region. Joe has expertise servicing fintech and online lenders, direct to consumer lenders, sales financing lenders, purchasers of automobiles and other retail installment contracts, rent-to-own companies, title lenders, purchasers of distressed debt, mortgage originators and servers, and various types of commercial lenders. Joe has vast experience providing and supervising audit, consulting, and risk management services to entities ranging in size from startup companies to international organizations. Joe also has extensive experience in transaction advisory services working with private equity groups, venture capital firms, and clients. Joe earned his bachelor's degree and MBA from Eastern Illinois University. Host Information Gina Cocking Gina Cocking serves as the Chief Executive Officer of Colonnade Advisors. She returned to Colonnade as a Managing Director in 2014. Gina began her career in investment banking at Kidder Peabody, was an analyst at Madison Dearborn Partners and an associate at J.P. Morgan & Co. She was a Vice President at Colonnade Advisors from 1999 to 2003. She left Colonnade to gain operating experience as the Chief Financial Officer of Cobalt Finance, a specialty finance company. She went on to become the Chief Financial Officer of Healthcare Laundry Systems, a private-equity backed company for which she oversaw the successful sale to a strategic acquirer. Gina served as the Line of Business CFO – Consumer Banking and Lending at Discover Financial Services. Gina serves on the Board of Directors of CIB Marine Bancshares, Inc., a bank holding company based in Waukesha, Wisconsin, that operates banking offices in Illinois, Indiana, and Wisconsin. Gina received her BA in Economics and an MBA from the University of Chicago. Additionally, Gina holds the Series 24, 28, 79, and 99 securities licenses. Jeff Guylay Jeff Guylay is a Managing Director of Colonnade Advisors. Prior to joining Colonnade in 2000, Jeff was an investment banker at J.P. Morgan in the firm's Mergers & Acquisitions and Fixed Income Capital Markets groups in New York. He also spent several years in J.P. Morgan's Chicago office. Jeff has over 20 years of M&A and investment banking experience and has served as lead execution partner on over 25 M&A and financing transactions at Colonnade. Jeff received an MBA from Northwestern University's Kellogg Graduate School of Management and a Master of Engineering Management from the University's McCormick School of Engineering. Jeff received a BA from Dartmouth College and a BE from Dartmouth's Thayer School of Engineering. Jeff holds the Series 7, 24, 63, and 79 securities licenses. Jeff serves as a director of the non-profit Nurture, an organization dedicated to enhancing the nutrition and wellness of children and families. About the Middle Market Mergers & Acquisitions Podcast Get the insiders' take on mergers and acquisitions. M&A investment bankers Gina Cocking and Jeff Guylay of Colonnade Advisors discuss the technical aspects of and tactics used in middle market deals. This podcast offers actionable advice and strategies for selling your company and is aimed at owners of middle market companies in the financial services and business services sectors. Middle market companies are generally valued between $20 million and $500 million. *** For more information, read Colonnade's blog post, Accounting Due Diligence: https://coladv.com/blog If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, and please consider leaving us a short review. To learn more about Colonnade Advisors, go to https://coladv.com/ Follow us on LinkedIn, https://www.linkedin.com/company/colonnade-advisors-llc_2

Landing a Million-Dollar Shark Tank Deal (And The Lessons Learned From Facing a Sudden Surge in Demand)

Up Next In Commerce

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 6, 2020 50:58

There are a lot of twists and turns in Joe Demin’s journey to founding Yellow Leaf Hammocks. It opens with a childhood refugee turned successful real estate developer, then twists into a story of entrepreneurship and an appearance on Shark Tank, and then turns again when a request for $400,000 became a $1 million investment. Through it all, though, Joe was guided by a singular idea to build a business that could actually have a measurable, sustainable positive impact on people. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Joe guides us through his quest to make Yellow Leaf a success. Tucked within this incredible story are some critical bits of knowledge about running a successful eCommerce shop, including the challenges of selling on Amazon and the ways to optimize your Amazon strategy, plus some of the pitfalls to watch out for if you decide to pursue a path into retail. 3 Takeaways: There are challenges to selling on Amazon, and it all comes down to whether you choose the seller-central or vendor-central route. If you choose seller-central, you have more control, but have to provide the inventory and warehouse the product on your own. With vendor-central, Amazon purchases directly from you, but then they resell on the Amazon site and the algorithm sets the price, so you have to constantly monitor that aspect to make sure you are not cannibalizing your own business Today, there are many companies that have a social good aspect to what they do. However, very few take the steps toward setting up an actual sustainable enterprise that truly benefits the people you are trying to help. By providing jobs and then programs that teach financial literacy and other skills, you create an impact that lasts longer There are certain pitfalls that small businesses encounter when pursuing the retail path. Whether that is claiming shelf space, creating market-ready packaging or understanding inventory needs and retail term agreements, there are headaches involved, so you need to be prepared to deal with them or find a different strategy For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length. --- Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce --- Transcript: Stephanie: Hey everyone, and welcome back to Up Next in Commerce. This is Stephanie Postles from mission.org. And today we have Joe Demin on the show, the founder and chief relaxation officer of Yellow Leaf Hammocks. Joe, how's it going? Joe: Going really well Stephanie: So, your title, I don't think I've ever had anyone on the show with a title of chief relaxation officer. I was very excited when I saw that. Joe: Yeah, we're laid back, so we can't take our titles too seriously. Stephanie: Yeah, completely agree. Joe: It's a fun job. Stephanie: So, when I was looking over a little bit about you, you have a very interesting background and I was hoping you could start from the beginning actually, which I don't ask from a lot of my guests. But I mean, I want you to go way back, like age five. Joe: Yeah, wow. Stephanie: Tell me a little bit about your journey to where you're at now. Joe: Yeah. I mean, I appreciate the question and definitely I think a lot of what I'm doing now is sprouted from my background. So, I came to the U.S when I was five as a Jewish refugee from the former Soviet Union and had, I guess, natural hustle built in just from my experience growing up in a kind of a rougher part of Boston and just worked my way up through into college. And was, I would say, on a track to do something entrepreneurial. Joe: And early on in college, I fell in love with real estate development for various reasons. We can probably have a whole separate podcast on that, but ended up getting a really amazing job, like a dream job and where I got to lead a lot of high profile development projects. And through that experience, that was my first foray into fusing positive impact with making money in business. Joe: And this is around the time where green building was just starting to become a more of a mainstream topic. And as one of the younger people at the firm, I spearheaded efforts to reposition the firm as a leader in green building and sustainable development. And part of that philosophy that I had early on was this realization that we can actually increase profitability by building things that were better, more sustainable, that had a better health impact, creating healthier communities and so forth. Joe: It was definitely driven by wanting to do good but also realizing that you can do good and have a profitable enterprise. And as 2006 came around, the recession started and real estate was really the first. I graduated in 2006 and so I lasted a couple of years through the recession and ended up taking a job, more of an institutional finance position, but focusing on affordable housing. And a similar philosophy there where if you roll up your sleeves, you can actually take on a part of the sector that wasn't necessarily as sexy, but also had real impact on people, and again, keeping on profitability. Joe: And around this whole time of being in real estate, I was starting to get exposed to other entrepreneurs more in the consumer product space who were some of the early pioneers in sustainable agriculture and fashion, those types of areas and they were doing it in ways that were really impactful. Joe: And so, I caught that bug and had no idea what I was going to do next, but real estate was not the place to be at the time. And I was basically planning to go to business school. And right before going and applying for business school, I saved up all my vacation days and ended up going to visit a good friend in Thailand who was living abroad with four of my other close friends from growing up. Joe: And it was on that trip where the idea for Yellow Leaf came to be, but it all transpired on that trip, but driven by this experience that I had and exposure that I had to other social entrepreneurs. Stephanie: Okay, cool. So what happened in Thailand where you were like, "Uh-huh, I need to start Yellow Leaf." What did that look like? How did you find the hammock? What was the story behind that? Joe: So, I was originally on a remote island and reading a local guide book trying to figure out what to do with my day. We're sitting on the beach one morning and in this book, there was a story, it was a basically said, there's a little shop on the other end of the island in the old part of the island. Joe: And in the shop, there's a map that they give out for free that's a locals' only knowledge type of thing where it'll tell you the secret waterfall and the secret beach. And I was like, "Okay, I got to go check this out." So, I hopped on my motorbike, zipped through to the other end of the island and ended up getting to the shop and it was closed. So I was pretty exhausted by the time I got there. I sat down, someone came and opened the shop and I asked for the map. Joe: And then I also noticed that there was just a plethora of hammocks that were beautiful. And I immediately jumped in. I had loved hammocks before this never thinking that I would be in the hammock business. But I jumped in and was immediately struck by how soft the yarn was, the intricate weave. And I started asking questions about this hammock thinking that I would buy some and bring them home. Joe: And I was told the story of the Mlabri tribe and an aid worker who was working with this tribe and how literally through hammock weaving they had gone from being on the brink of extinction as a culture and they were trapped in indentured servitude. And through hammock weaving, they were able to provide enough income in their community where they were able to self-sustain themselves and build a path out of poverty or were on track to do that. Joe: The impact that they were creating for themselves that was driven by themselves and not an outside aid organization was really interesting to me. I had been familiar with the Toms Shoes model, the handout approach to creating impact. And so, this struck me as something really different. And I learned that these hammocks were not sold really anywhere else outside of a few places in Thailand. Joe: And so, a week later, that story of this community and what they were doing and the hammocks really stuck with me and I contacted the shop and I asked if I can go visit. And they connected me with the village. And long story short, I convinced the cab driver to drive me 600 miles to the village. Stephanie: Gosh. Joe: And I went there and I got to meet the women making the hammocks and spent a whole day in the community. And I learned that people would hike as far away as the Laotian border to this village because they heard how much money they could earn, how well they could be treated. And they were being turned away because there just weren't enough sales. Joe: And immediately I was like, "Well, this is a great product." Naively I was like, "Oh, I can sell some hammocks. We can provide work in this community. And I came home with a backpack stuffed full of hammocks and all this energy and excitement, threw them down on the bed when I got home and with my now wife was who was my girlfriend at the time we were living together. And told her about my experience and it all just snowballed from there. And I basically decided not to go to business school and start doing this on the side and diving into it and slowly getting to where we are today. Stephanie: Okay, cool. Yeah, that's such an amazing story. Where are you guys today? How many hammocks are you selling? Joe: Oh, God. Well, we have over 200 trained weavers. We started with about eight women when we first decided to do this full time. So, we've grown quite a bit in terms of annual units. I mean, tens of thousands that we've sold. And we're actually growing a ton right now. But yeah, it's definitely a very sustainable business. We're past the ideation stage and more into growth right now, so. Stephanie: For sure. Yeah. And I love that idea of giving jobs and actually, like you said, developing a market, a bigger market and providing an opportunity instead of just giving things to someone. Because I do think that's a much more sustainable path and one that I'm always very interested in. How has it changed though from when just a few women making these hammocks? What does it look like now with all these weavers? Are you ingrained in the training process? How do you keep up product quality? It seems like there's so many questions when you're working with a village in Thailand. Joe: Oh my God. Yeah. I don't even know where to start. There's a lot that we've learned and I think we've built a really, hopefully, a model that others can replicate for the artisan sector. But basically, when we started, we were, well, one of the first things we did was update the designs and we learned early on that... Joe: I guess to just step back even a little bit. When I first came back from Thailand, my co-founder Rachel's idea was that we needed to test the market and see if other people thought these hammocks were as great as I thought and that I wasn't just crazy. And that proved to be a really valuable process that we went through where we started selling hammocks at local markets and different fairs around New England, where we were at the time. And we didn't share the impact story. We just tried to sell the product and we led with product first. Joe: And through that experience, we gained a lot of feedback around design and being really design-focused. And so, one of the first things we did as we were starting to really grow was update a lot of the aesthetic to be more on trend with color and pattern and things like that. Upgraded materials so they were really built for the outdoor use and using performance materials. Joe: And so, as we were introducing these things, our weavers were really receptive to that. And we really engaged them in the process. But some of the things we've done as we've continued to grow and looking at how do we create more impact? Layering in like we built a financial literacy program, we have this amazing partnership with kiva.org where we're able to provide zero interest flexible loans to our weavers. Joe: And thinking about how do we provide additional support or bring in partners that can provide additional support in the communities to make it truly sustainable because the first step is giving somebody an opportunity to earn a great living wage and helping people evolve to the middle class. But then it's taking that next step. And so, we've done some work around that and really focusing on quality control from the beginning as well has been super important for us. Stephanie: That's amazing. So, how do you manage inventory levels? I saw you were on Shark Tank, which I'd love to hear the story behind that, but it also made me be like, "Oh my gosh, when you're on Shark Tank, I'm sure you got a million orders." How did these weavers keep up? So maybe first, if I can hear a bit about the Shark Tank story and what that is like, and then move on to how you manage inventory from that surplus of sales I'm sure you have. Joe: Yeah. Yeah, Shark Tank was quite the experience for us. I think we have an ideal product to showcase on Shark Tank, especially during today's times where people are spending more time at home. But for us going on Shark Tank was really, it's catapulted us truly. First off, we've had our first infusion of capital. I guess I can give away what happened. Joe: We received a million dollar investment from one of the guest sharks, Daniel Lubetzky, who's the founder of KIND Snacks. So, he's a very mission-driven investor who has a similar track record as us in terms of rolling up his sleeves and taking 10 years to build what he's built. And so, he's been through the trenches, but our experience in Shark Tank was, I mean, since Shark Tank, we've definitely seen a huge uptick in sales and we've been able to put some systems in place to really shift our business towards more of a direct-to-consumer model. Joe: And it's only been a month and a half since we were on the show. So, we're still living through a lot of the chaos that comes after you're on the show. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). So what kind of unexpected chaos came? Because I'm sure you're like, "Oh, we're for sure going to get more sales," but what things happened or what surprising things happened after you were on the show or maybe during the show? Joe: Well, we honestly had no idea what to expect. We talked to some other entrepreneurs that have been on the show and have learned that it's different for everyone. It depends on what's going on in the world at the time that your episode airs. I talked to one person who was on the show during a massive snow storm and people were at home watching and he had a product that really fit the times. And so he did really well. Joe: And I talked to other people who were like, "Oh, it was okay." So, we just had no idea. And then going into this also, we're going through such a crazy time where we just didn't know if people are, how bad people are impacted economically. And so, we didn't know how to prepare inventory-wise, we didn't want to overinvest in inventory. That's been something we've really tried to hone in on and not hold inventory too long, have some of those kind of basic business principles baked in. Joe: But we've seen sales have far exceeded our expectations and it's broke a lot of the systems that we've had and created a lot of inefficiency now as we're trying to catch up. And going back to your question around the supply chain, on the one hand it's been a challenge, but we've also been able to catch up pretty quickly. And I think having a vertically integrated supply chain like we do and really great relationships with our weavers is what's allowed us to not lose out on, we're not leaving too many sales on the table and trying to take advantage of everything that's going on, keeping our foot on the gas. Joe: But it's been just the uptick in order volume within a short amount of time and sustained order volume has been something that's new to us. And so, it's been a fun challenge to work on. Stephanie: Yeah, that's amazing. Congratulations. Getting a million dollars from Shark Tank is awesome. And you went in only asking for 400,000, right? Joe: 400,000, yeah. Stephanie: That's crazy. Joe: Yeah, they have a great clip at the end where Kevin O'Leary goes, "It's never happened before in Shark Tank where someone comes in for 400,000 and comes out with a million." And honestly, we had no intention of raising a million dollars on Shark Tank. I think, yeah, we're still like, "Did that just happen?" Stephanie: Did it hit your bank account pretty instantly or was there a whole process behind it? Joe: There was definitely a whole process. You go through due diligence after, it's more of a handshake agreement on the show. And so, we ended up closing and then went to work afterwards just preparing to be on the show, making sure that everything was in place for us to have a successful airing. Joe: And this was before COVID existed, so we did not anticipate what the world would look like when the episode actually aired. But it's great to see some money in our account for the first time and actually be able to think a little more strategically, so- Stephanie: That's always a good feeling. Joe: ... definitely a different business today than, yeah. Yeah. Stephanie: So, what was the first thing that you invested in after that cash hit? Did you have a plan for it or what did that look like? Joe: So, we knew we needed to build our marketing engine. Prior to getting investment, we were very bootstrapped, we would reinvest all our profit and we were always getting pulled in a lot of different directions. And for once we can actually focus in on updating our website and really making sure we're telling our story and being a little more deliberate in the communications through our website. And so that was several months of a project and also focusing more on product development. We've got this new product called the hammock throne, which is a new category of its own. Stephanie: I need the throne because I consider myself a queen, so I like that. Joe: So, putting money towards that and making sure that we're positioned for this next phase of growth with product development and a really good Ecommerce experience was the first two things. And we're continuing to reinvest into those areas right now. Stephanie: Very cool. Do you ever test with the messaging on your website? And if so, what kind of testing do you do and what do you see works best to tell the story? Joe: Yeah, we've done some light testing. And the one thing we've tested the most, I would say, is how we message the product and the impact. And it's always odd to us if we ever lead with impact and the artisan story, it doesn't resonate as well as telling the product story. And so, we continue to test and we continue to iterate how we're communicating that because obviously impact is super important to us. It's baked into our business model, it's why we started, but the product is what makes it sustainable. Joe: And so, we're trying to really weave that into the storytelling more, but that's one thing we've, every time we test it, product story always wins. But we're starting to really get that striking a chord with more about how we tell the impact and how the impact story really contributes to making the product superior and what the benefit is to our customers. Stephanie: Yeah, that makes sense. I did go on your about page and I was watching more of the story of the weavers and I couldn't stop watching. It was like one of those addicting memes or videos where you're watching someone knit something and I'm like, "Oh, I can't look away." That's a really good video. Joe: Thank you. Yeah, and that's how we're now figuring out how to really tell that impact story of showing how it's made, showing the people that are making it. Every hammock is also signed on the label by the woman who made it. Stephanie: Oh, cool. Joe: And so, we really want to connect customers to, there are real people that are so enthusiastic about every single sale that we get. It's awesome. And we want to connect our customers with our weavers. And so, that video is something that it took us a while to get. Again, just not having raised money up until recently, everything came naturally and organically and over time, but those are things that we've tested out and seen how once we're able to show how it's made, that's one of our advantages. A lot of products are just made in I guess more of a boring way. I'm not sure, but just not in the same environment. And so, there's this beautiful craftsmanship that we want to showcase. Stephanie: Yep. Yeah, I probably would not watch how my office chair was made, but yeah, that I could not look away from. Joe: I did just get back from an office chair factory as we were figuring out the hammock [inaudible] that's was... I do think... Stephanie: What were you doing there? Joe: We were sourcing components for the hammock [inaudible] because we're getting into furniture. And I think that just showing how things are made should be done more. I think it creates more transparency and connects people to where things are coming from, which is important for sustainability and just awareness around that's important stuff. I would challenge that and say, even the way office chairs are made, at least maybe I'm just a geek around manufacturing and production, but I think there's some, I don't know, I saw some cool things that I thought other people would be interested in. Stephanie: Well, if you take a good video, I will be open to watching it and- Joe: Absolutely. Stephanie: ... seeing if it's as enticing as watching someone weave a hammock together. Joe: Yeah. Stephanie: So, when it comes to new products, you just mentioned that you guys are looking into getting into new products. But one thing I saw on your site was that you could actually build a custom hammock and it made me just think about, how did you decide that you would allow consumers to build a custom hammock and how does that get to the weavers? Because it seems like it would be easier just to have like, "Here's our three products, and this is what the weavers know how to do, and this is all you can order." What was that thought process like allowing a customer to create their own? Joe: Yeah. We had a lot of debate around whether or not we wanted to pursue that because it does add extra work for us. We figured out what would be the premium cost. I think it's a $50 premium to make a custom hammock. The process has evolved over time and we're getting more towards a tech-oriented solution in this next iteration. But there's a design guide that we share out with customers. Joe: Right now it's pretty manual. You order the custom hammock, we then email you a design guide, a PDF that you fill out. So you can't actually see the hammock, but we have a lot of examples in that design guide and you can see the different colors. And it's worked really well, but what inspired us to do that was more around just realizing we have the ability. Joe: We have a very design-oriented customer, or at least one segment of our customers are very, in that interior design world. We also were previously, we did a lot of collaborations with companies like Anthropologie — we made all the hammocks for Tommy Bahama and other brands and realizing that they wanted something unique to them and limited edition collections and things like that and that we have the ability to do that. We realized maybe individual customers also have that preference and to make something that really fits their space as they're designing that area in their home or backyard. Joe: And so, we tested it out and we got a pretty good response and realized it was something we can do. And it's allowed us to differentiate as well, but also just another way to add value to people. And I think there's this broader trend around customization and less mass market products and things that really represent your personality and your style and things like that. So, we really lean towards that and wanted to empower our customers to be able to do that. Stephanie: Yeah. That's awesome. So, are you guys in retail or are you only doing direct-to-consumer? Joe: When we first started the business, we basically were trying to get any sale we can get. There's that bootstrap approach, just hit profitability as quickly as possible. We weren't really deliberate about where our sales were coming from, didn't have the resources for one strategy or the other. And as we grew and started reinvesting and we became a little more strategic and we focused on, our business was at, a year ago, it was probably 50/50 between retail partnerships and Ecommerce. Joe: And we've obviously started shifting heavily towards direct-to-consumer with stores being shut down, but other reasons as well, I think we were going in that direction anyway of being more direct-to-consumer. And the other thing that we're focusing on, thinking about more longterm is, I don't think we're going to not sell into retail. We're just going to be more strategic around who we work with and making sure that our story is really told well, the product showcased well, it's definitely a hard product to merchandise. And it's an easier story to tell on the internet with video like you mentioned and being able to really focus more on storytelling, which is a big part of our brand. Stephanie: Yeah. That makes sense. What kind of issues did you run into when you were going into retail, outside of COVID and everything, but what problems did you encounter? Joe: Well, taking up space on store shelves, packaging, we didn't really have retail ready packaging. And so, going through a couple of iterations of different displays, things like that, it took so much time to develop. Also, payment terms aren't flexible with most retailers, things like that. We pay our weavers immediately upon completion of the hammocks and some in advance. Joe: And so, just the whole retail business model wasn't really friendly for our art model. And we constantly were up against having to negotiate for better terms, having to figure out how to display the product in a store. And it's always just been so much easier to do it online. Stephanie: Yep. So, earlier you mentioned that when you started getting more orders, a bunch of things broke. What kind of things started breaking first and how did you go about fixing them? Or are there any best practices where you're like, "Well, when you have this happen, we saw this work, then this didn't?" Joe: So, I would say on the supply chain side, a lot of the efficiency that we had created just broke in the sense of... So, when we first were working with eight women, we were able to really go to someone's house and collect hammocks. And it was very manual and individual. As we grew to 200 weavers, we created a little bit more of a schedule around when we would drop off yarn, created a central location and standardized some of the things around collecting hammocks and payments. Joe: And after the Shark Tank appearance, our sales, we far exceeded what we expected to sell. And so, we ended up going on back order and still working through a lot of that right now as we speak and ended up having to go door to door again, completely lost all the efficiencies that we had, just trying to get the hammocks to the customers as quickly as possible. Joe: We started drop shipping directly from the communities where they're made in Thailand direct to customers homes. And so, a lot of the efficiencies just broke down and those things are compounded as you continue to stand back order. And so, that's one thing. The other is that when we relaunched our website in the beginning right before we went on Shark Tank, we had all these plans to continue innovating testing and a lot of those plans just fell by the wayside because we were putting out so many fires around being on back order, trying to get more yarn. Joe: There are so many challenges right now with global logistics. So, getting hit from a lot of angles. Stephanie: Yep. Do you see the industry evolving around logistics in the future? Because it seems like so many brands were maybe dependent on one location or these couple of factories or something. And if they're down for the count, you're in a pinch, how do you see things evolving in that part of the business going forward? Joe: Yeah, that's a really interesting thought to try to predict what will happen. But I definitely think a lot of brands are reliant on just one manufacturer and there's reasons to maybe figure out other backup solutions. I think we'll definitely start seeing that it's definitely wise to not just be fully dependent on one supplier. But it's going to be really tricky because in the U.S we're just not set up to manufacture a lot of things that people buy here. And so, it's not like it's going to be a sudden shift to bring manufacturing back. Joe: And globalization, personally, I feel like has had a positive impact on prices of products for people and accessibility to different things, but we're retracting a little bit, so I don't know. I'm definitely closely watching it and thinking about how do we look at different yarn suppliers and raw materials and maybe have more options just in case. Joe: But I think we're also inclined to not create a problem and just stick with the status quo. I think a lot of businesses are that way, so it's a little bit of a balance of putting some resources towards planning for worst case and also keeping your foot on the gas and keeping up with what's actually working now, but things will certainly be changing in the coming year. Stephanie: Yeah. Completely agree. So, with everything going on and all the chaos that you just mentioned, have you been able to focus on your content and marketing strategy? And if so, what does that look like for you all? Joe: Yeah, we've been definitely trying to scale up our content strategy. It's a little too early for us to report anything significant, but one of our, an area that I think we've done it really well in is having a lot of user-generated content. And if you look at our website, most of the photos on there are actually taken by our customers and this might have been a benefit of being bootstrapped and that we didn't have the resources to do a lot of these full-on photo shoots that bigger brands have been able to do. Joe: And that's allowed us to have real people in our products and to be able to show that to our customers, creating that relate-ability. And we're definitely wanting to continue that, and we're hiring now, trying to build out the content arm of Yellow Leaf more and focusing more around what a hammock represents in your life and relaxation and really shifting our mission a little bit more towards making relaxation a daily ritual in your life. And so, focusing our content strategy more towards that. Joe: And so, being a little bit more deliberate around our photography too and really showing the product in different places and how to use it. It's a little bit of a technical product in terms of how do you set it up? Where do you place it? And so, going forward, we're really focusing on being able to create content that showcases and answers a lot of those questions. Stephanie: Yeah. Yeah. That's definitely a good move. I also saw on the reviews, people were able to select where they place their hammock, and I thought that was so important because then you can be like, "Oh, she's like me and she put it in her backyard," or they put it in their kid's room. And it just helped you visualize, "Okay, it must not be that hard if a bunch of people are able to do it." Joe: Yeah, exactly. And that's where the user-generated photos that we have come into play. We also included a 12 page hammocking 101 guide book with every purchase. Stephanie: That's good. Joe: So, it has a lot of resources on how to hang it, where to hang it. Everybody sets it up a little bit differently. And so, as we look ahead, developing products that allow you to really be able to hang a hammock anywhere, there's more of our focus going forward. I think we've done really well with perfecting the woven hammock and now making sure that we can increase the amount of hammocks we can sell and the way people can use hammocks and making it a more integral part of our culture in the U.S. And so, that's the biggest focus for us in this next phase with solving that how to hang problem. Stephanie: So, when it comes to, you were mentioning UGC earlier, how do you encourage your customers to post those images? Joe: Well, I think for us, we're fortunate in that it's the type of product that people like to brag about. So, we definitely see a lot of people who are excited to use it. And so they're like, "Hey, take a photo of me," and they share it. And we try to really monitor social channels. I wouldn't say we have a massive audience compared to others yet. It's growing right now, but we try to really connect with people individually and have them share those photos with us directly so we can reuse them and just engaging with people one-on-one has helped. Joe: And then, more people see others sharing and they share. And so, it just builds on itself. Obviously, we send out the post-purchase review requests and anytime we communicate with customers we're always like, "Oh, we'd love to see your photos." And it makes our day to see that. And I think they're excited to share. And so, we try to keep that momentum going post-purchase. Stephanie: That's great. So, for a product that's pretty durable, probably going to last many years, what's your idea around increasing the lifetime value of a customer? How do you bring them back? How are you trying to get them to buy more than one product? What does that strategy look like? Joe: Yeah. With hammocks, it's obviously you would think a onetime purchase, and we were really surprised with our findings once we started really looking at the numbers behind our sales. And for us, it's about just under 20% repurchase rate within first year of purchase. And so, we were just shocked that for a hammock that we were seeing that. Joe: And what we learned was that this was such a great gift for people. And we started communicating that more once we discovered that so many people were gifting hammocks to a new, if someone, a friend buys a new home, get them a hammock. That's a great wedding gift. It's unique, it's different. And so, we've started really showcasing a lot of that gift giving more. And so, that's helped with the repeat sale. Joe: But that aside, we're also looking at how do we add more products? How do we build out, there's that space in your backyard that compliments the hammock? So, you buy a hammock, but there's other things. What else are you buying to create that space? And thinking about building more of a robust home and backyard brand centered around the idea of creating that relaxation space. And so, what can we do to add more value there? That's the product philosophy is more around hammock-inspired products, I guess. Stephanie: So, earlier you were talking about creating different messaging around relaxation or gift giving and things like that. What kind of marketing channels are you seeing success with? Joe: I would say right now, definitely the basics of being on Facebook and Instagram, especially for a very visual product like ours is great. We see a lot of success there and we've really tried to focus in on those. In the earlier days when we were starting to really focus more on digital marketing, we cast a little bit of a wider net. We found Google to be really expensive, really competitive and narrowed it down to, let's really figure out Facebook and Instagram before we start branching out elsewhere. Joe: And so, that's what our key focus right now. And we're also seeing with a lot of bigger brands moving off of Facebook right now with things happening politically, we're seeing prices come down a little bit. So, it's a smaller brand, it's honestly benefiting us. And so, we're trying to take advantage of that to be totally transparent. Stephanie: Oh, yeah. We've had a lot of brands, smaller brands say that as well, so you're not the only one. Joe: Okay. Yeah, and it's great. I mean, I think things are always shifting. The more people jump on a particular marketing channel, the cost increase, so you have to be really nimble. And for us, this is also new. We're also focusing more on Amazon these days. And so, I would say that's another really, it's been a great sales channel for us too. Stephanie: What was that process or what does it look like selling on Amazon versus B2C? What kind of things do you encounter while selling through their platform? Joe: Definitely very different. You lose a lot of control. Amazon's broken up between seller central and vendor central. And seller central you warehouse the product on your own either in your warehouse or put it in Amazon's warehouse so that you can offer prime shipping if you do that. But you have more control on that end. And on vendor central, they purchase direct from you and on the inventory and therefore their algorithm prices your product. Joe: And so, if you have a minimum asking price map pricing like we do, we never really discount our products. And so, you're constantly having to monitor and make sure that the product is represented the way you want it, which is really challenging. But at the same time, so many people are shopping on Amazon. Joe: And I think when we were first starting to shift more towards direct to consumer, we had a little bit of pride around thinking, "Oh, we're just going to be on our own website and some select retail channels." And really again, I don't think that's wise, I think you want to be where your customers are, particularly for your category. And for hammocks, we had an opportunity to really stand out on Amazon because it's such a commoditized category. Joe: And so, we definitely, yeah, we made this decision and it's worked out well for us, but there's definitely challenges around being in control of how your product is showcased and there's less customization and so forth, but a lot of people [crosstalk 00:43:39]. Stephanie: How do you stand out on Amazon? Joe: You can pay a little bit of money to be able to create your page. I think it's called A+ pages. And really you're still working with their templated sections, but really focusing in on like, what are the core things you want to showcase? And you have to stick within those walls. But trying to make that section mirror our website as much as possible and just having good customer service on Amazon as well is important. Joe: You do lose a lot of that control when you're selling on Amazon, especially if you have such a, you're trying to build a brand and not just another kind of a trinket type product. But again, if people are especially already aware of your brand, like for us, we saw after Shark Tank, people would go to our website, but also people would check Amazon just because Amazon has such a strong reputation for quick delivery, easy returns. And so, why compete against Amazon when you could be on there and increase your sales to reach more customers? Stephanie: Yup. That makes sense. So, how do you build, I mean, we've had a lot of our, we do a survey for some of our listeners and many people ask about selling on Amazon. So, what kind of optimizations do you do to your page, or are you experimenting with where you're like, "This is working really well or make sure you pay attention to this part." What kind of things are you looking at when it comes to creating a different page that gets found and it's enticing and still tells your product story and the background and all that? Joe: I would say we're still learning a lot, but one thing that's worked for us was to move all of our products under a single page so you can click through the different views all in one page. And for a while, we thought that would be a bad thing to do because if you're searching for a particular product and you only see one design, you might not click on it. We found that to not be true. Joe: Once you click on, you actually land on the product page, you can click through the different designs. And so, keeping people all on one page. And I guess you can apply this to your website as well. And Amazon obviously tests these things and we started just following whatever their best practices are. And it also allows you to have all the reviews for all of the products on all in that one page versus broken out across 30 plus views. Joe: So yeah, I mean, generally we're just trying to follow their best practices and take their advice on how to set your page up and just stick to the basics and good photography obviously is a given too, so that's been important. Stephanie: Yeah. A previous guest also mentioned that, let the algorithm do its job, or like you said, let Amazon tell you best practices, because he was just saying that a lot of people will try and just do something different because they think they know more and instead it's like stick with what works and what the brand is telling you what works and see how that goes first. So, yeah. Joe: Yeah. Yeah. Stephanie: That's good. So, earlier you were mentioning your website, is there any new tools or technologies that you're playing around with right now that you're seeing help conversions or maybe before you were seeing cart abandonment and now you're not, or you were dropping off traffic from the homepage and now you're not anymore? Anything that you've had success with on your website? Joe: For us having the live chat functionality is really great. And rather than having something that pops up and is in your face right away, just having a subtle message in a corner that you can click on and you can ask questions and if we're on, you can chat with somebody right away. Oftentimes it's been turned off lately just because we still have a pretty small team. Joe: But you can, instead of going to a contact us page, having that there, we learned that for our customers, that was really important. A lot of people have questions before purchasing. And so, making that readily available without a way that's super intrusive to their site browse-ability. And then having a popup with really good messaging around. What's the value to you to sign up to our newsletter and not just trying to throw another discount in your face, because again, for us we're not able to really discount heavily. Joe: And so, those two things have been probably the greatest for us. But we're continuing to develop our site more and add a little more functionality and features. And so, but yeah, we're just, again, sticking to what works and following... We oftentimes look at maybe what other brands are doing and get inspiration from them. Joe: If you're small like us, what we've learned is that there's no point in reinventing the wheel. And bigger companies like Amazon and other Ecommerce companies that have huge markets that are testing things constantly, you can really learn a lot by looking at what they're doing. And so, yeah, we're testing on our own, but also taking cue from others. Stephanie: Well, that's a good question then. What kind of other brands are you looking at? What Ecommerce companies do you keep an eye on? Joe: Definitely some of the big marketplaces like Amazon and Wayfair, very different from our website and they're more of a marketplace but just what their experience is like for customers is great. Actually, another company that we look at our category specifically, The Inside, who I think was on your podcast. They do an amazing job. We were looking at a lot of furniture and direct-to-consumer brands who are also selling products that require a lot of thought before purchase and how they're communicating some of the questions that people have when they're shopping for their home like Parachute Home, Floyd, or another furniture company. Joe: And also I would say some of the early pioneers and direct-to-consumer brands like Warby Parker, Away travel, who's done a really great job. And so, yeah, looking at the companies that have been able to raise a ton of money, grow super fast, build those departments out, what are they doing and how can we tailor some of those best practices towards our own business has helped. Stephanie: Cool. Yeah, I love that. So, before I move into a quick lightning round, is there anything that I missed that you were like, "Man, I really wish we had talked about this?" Joe: I mean, no, I think we covered so much. Stephanie: We did. All encompassing. Well, cool. Then we can move right into lightning round brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. So, this is where I ask you a question and you have one minute or less to answer. Are you ready to go? Joe: Ooh, great. Let's do it. Stephanie: All right. What's up next on your reading list? Joe: Ooh. I am really looking forward to reading something that is non-fiction. Honestly, I've had my head down for so long that I have not had a chance to actually kick back in one of our own hammocks. And maybe I have to do a little staycation. So, I'm looking for a book that can take me away from all the work stress and everything else. I can't say I have one right now. But I would encourage people to... I'm sure a lot of your listeners are always looking for ways to improve, innovate like I am. And I think I've always found value in trying to step away from that. And so, I would say I don't have a book on my list, but I would recommend A Gentleman in Moscow, which totally takes you to a whole different world. Stephanie: I like it. Joe: And that requires all sorts of great creativity when you do that. Stephanie: Yep, completely agree. What is your number one recommended spot when you go to Thailand that you would tell other people, "You have to go here?" Joe: I would say if you're going to Southern Thailand and doing more of the beach thing, take the extra step to go further from, a lot of people go to Phuket, which is great, but get on a boat, travel a couple hours further. And there's hundreds of islands to choose from. Honestly, pick any one of those. I would say Ko Lanta is great. It has a little bit of everything, but just, yeah. Go a little bit further, a little bit further away from the people and allow yourself to have that experience of truly being remote. Stephanie: Yeah. That's awesome. What is the favorite piece of tech that makes you more efficient? Joe: I would say, I mean, I love my MacBook Pro. Stephanie: Same. Joe: Yeah, thing is great, I take it everywhere. But everyone's got a computer these days. I would say, I don't know. Lately it's been just my computer because I've been staring at it for so long lately. Stephanie: Makes sense. Yeah. As is all of us. If you were to have a podcast, what would it be about and who would your first guest be? Joe: It would be around relaxation and how to live a more values-oriented life. And my first guest would probably be, I would say, Wim Hof, maybe. Stephanie: Ooh, that's a good one. Joe: Yeah. Stephanie: I was just watching a series about Iceland. It reminded me of him doing his cold plunges and yeah, he's great. Joe: Yeah. He's figured some things up. Stephanie: All right. Well, this was a great lightning round. Where can people find out more about you and Yellow Leaf Hammocks? Joe: So, our website would be the first place we recommend yellowleafhammocks.com and also our Instagram which is Yellow Leaf Hammocks. So yeah, looking forward to, yeah, seeing where things take us after this, but thank you so much for having me on. It's always a pleasure to share our story and hopefully add value to others. Stephanie: Yep. Yeah, it was awesome. Thanks so much for coming on Joe, and we will have to bring you back after all the Shark Tank craziness dies down and see how you're doing in six months to a year. So, that'd be fun. Joe: Yeah, that would be amazing, Stephanie. Stephanie: All right. Thanks Joe, have a great day. Joe: You too, bye.

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An Interview with Speaker, Author, Life Coach and Entrepreneur Simon T Bailey

Play Episode Listen Later Jul 29, 2020 57:13

I had the distinct privilege to sit down with Simon T Bailey to discuss his timeless book, "Shift Your Brilliance". I met Simon in March of 2020 when he gave a keynote address at a conference I was attending and his infectious manner and positive energy, drew me in. I had to interview him and find out more about this man. In this interview, we explore his book "Shift Your Brilliance" because it is so incredibly timely with what's happening in the world today with COVID-19, so many people furloughed from their jobs and so many companies going under with the weight of an almost non-existent economy due to social distancing. I hope this interview provides some real life guidance to those of you who may be a little lost at the moment and not sure what you next move might be. If you can shift your brilliance in a new direction, you'll surely come out on top when the dust settles. Enjoy! Simon T Bailey: Simon's Website: Simon T Bailey Connect with Simon: LinkedIn Personal: https://www.linkedin.com/in/simontbailey/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/BrilliantSimonT/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/simontbailey Twitter: https://twitter.com/SimonTBailey Simon's Books: "Shift Your Brilliance" "Release Your Brilliance" "Be the Spark: Five Platinum Service Principles for Creating Customers for Life" "Brilliant Living: 31 Insights to Creating an Awesome Life" "Success is an Inside Job: Brilliant Service is the Bottom Line" "Releasing Leadership Brilliance: Breaking Sound Barriers in Education" "The Vuja de Moment: Shift from Average to Brilliant" "Simon Says Dream: Live a Passionate Life" Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#thejoecostelloshow Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#thejoecostelloshow Follow Joe: Twitter: https://twitter.com/jcostelloglobal Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jcostelloglobal/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jcostelloglobal/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUZsrJsf8-1dS6ddAa9Sr1Q?view_as=subscriber Transcript Joe: Welcome, everybody. I'm really excited today to have Simon T. Bailey on the show, Simon and I met in March of this past year, but it was very briefly was passing in the hallway at a conference in Colorado. I shook his hand, told him how I loved the talk that he had just given the group. And then I was lucky enough to get him to say yes to come on to my podcast. So, Simon, welcome to my podcast. Thank you so much. Simon: Hey, Joe, good to be with you. Thank you for having me. Joe: Yeah, so I have one question before we even start, Simon: Sure. Joe: Why Simon T. Bailey? Simon: Because the "T is for terrific, you walked into Joe: I Simon: It Joe: Said, Simon: there, Joe: Damn, I should have guessed, I should have guessed. Simon: Though, the T is is a family name that my father gave to me. It stands for Theopolis, which is great. So Joe: Wow, OK, I was just wondering. Simon: It's a branding thing as well. Joe: So we are definitely going to talk today about your very timely book, which was published in 2014 called Shift Your Brilliance, Harness The Power of You Inc. Super interesting. I'm an audio book guy, so I listen to the audio book part, which for me is even better because I love your voice. Your laugh is probably the most infectious laugh that I've heard in such a long time. So that was great for me. But before we get into it, I just kind of want to lay a little groundwork about who Simon T. Bailey is. I know that from the book and from your talk that you gave out in Colorado, and I know you speak all over the world, that you came from the corporate environment. So you can start as far back as you want. I know the book covers some of your childhood, so it's completely up to you how far back you want to go. But I want to just lay a little groundwork so they know who you are and then we can get into all the other stuff. Simon: All , so give us two in a minute and a half or less, because it's important to what I'll share today, 14 years of age, mom and dad took me to Bennett High School or McKinley High School in Buffalo, New York, where I grew up, went out for football, basketball, got cut, went out for track and field. They said you're too slow that summer, attempted to commit suicide, didn't go through with it. Sophomore year, brand new high school teacher says to me, write a speech for the entire school. Absolutely changed my life. Ended up being class president. I moved to Atlanta, Georgia, dropped out of college after my first year, went back to college, took me ten years to finish my undergrad degree, started at a decent hotel making five dollars and ten cents an hour as a front desk clerk. That was about 30 years ago, fast forwarding got hired at Disney after a ten interviews over a ten year period. I stayed at Disney for seven years, left Disney after turning down for job same and a job saying that I wanted to be or I did an interview saying I wanted to become the number one guy at Disney that was put in front of that didn't quite work out. So I thought it probably best for me to find my happiness elsewhere. After Joe: But. Simon: Being married for twenty five years, went through a divorce and a video was posted to Facebook about me telling that story. That video has over 90 million views to date. And then from there I went through a bout of cancer. I am a cancer survivor, thank goodness. I have two amazing children. Twenty one year old son, eighteen year old daughter. And today I've worked with almost eighteen hundred organizations in forty nine countries just teaching a very simple concept that you have to shift your brilliance in the midst of uncertainty. I've written ten books, I've worked in forty nine countries and three of my courses are linked and learning. So that's just it in a nutshell. Joe: Man, oh, man, I'm tired just hearing that's amazing, that's truly amazing. And there's some of those things, obviously I didn't even know so and what I love about you besides the talk that you gave and how infectious you are and and it's and I even said it the other night, we were having a conversation and how I was having you on as a guest is that you're you're so positive. And it's it's and you you smile all the time, like every Instagram post, everything. It's just it's part of who you've become. And I think when I when I listen to the audio book and I heard you talk, I feel like you were the person at Disney that you've you're now trying to get at least the business people. Not like there's regular people that I know that this book and what you talk about attracts. But you were that person at Disney where it was just heads down working. And I think you even talked about a sport where you didn't even know the people that were part of your team or you didn't like you talked about getting reviews or something to that, where they just said if you actually knew the people you were working with and they knew you as a person, it would shift things for you. Simon: Totally, totally, I was so busy trying to climb the ladder of perceived success, in the words of Dr. Stephen Covey, only discovered my ladder was against the long haul. So I was the boss with an agenda instead of a leader with a vision. Joe: Yeah, it's it's really amazing. Well, I appreciate you giving us the background, I think now the people that are listening to this, they're in for a real treat. So I can let you just take take it from here and then I'm going to try to sneak in some of these things that I want to sneak in. But I really want you to get into the fact that you wrote this book in twenty fourteen. And literally it's almost as if you you could have written it in the beginning of March knowing that covid-19 was coming, because when I listen to it, it's, it's literally that, that everyone needs to be poked and say this is the time to do this, this is the time to shift your brilliance and figure out what it is. I keep preaching. No one's coming to rescue us. We've got to do this Simon: That's Joe: On our own. Simon: That's totally yeah, so when I when I wrote the book and it's so appropriate for now, I was holding on to the way things had always been going for me as my business. When I left Disney, I started speaking Friday in training consulting and I was thinking that's the way it was always going to but as you can imagine my entire world has been disrupted as as everyone else. And what I recognize is sometimes we have to let go of what is comfortable and convenient in order to embrace what wants to emerge. So everyone now is experiencing what many will call V.U.C.A., volatility, uncertainty, complexity and ambiguity. So you have 40 million people that have been laid off. You have millions who have been furloughed. You have companies that have gone under. But also in the midst of that, there are some companies that are totally shifted what they have been doing and moving into a whole other direction. I was interviewing a company out of Baltimore and they are whiskey company, but guess what business they are in now, hand sanitizer, because they understand there's an opportunity to shift. So everyone is listening to us, has to begin to say, what about my career or my business? I could be doing this now for 18, almost 18 years since I left Disney. And I have to tell you, Joe, I have reinvented I'm on my fifth reinvention in 18 years because I have to shift. So I wrote that book from a deep place with this is one concept, and that is we have to implement vu ja de If deja vu has been there, done that, that's pre covid budget day is going. They're doing that. It's seeing the old and the new. The new and the old. Joe: Yeah, it's just really incredible, it's literally like the book was, I don't know how it did when it came out in 2014, I'm sure it did great because I was just so captured listening to the stories that you told in it. But, man, it's just like it was written for now. It's just unbelievable. Is it OK if I ask a couple of questions about it? OK, Simon: Absolutely! Joe: So there's a line in there that you talk about where you say we are spirit beings having a human experience. And I heard that and I was like, wow. So could you elaborate more on that? Simon: Yeah, so when I first started out years ago, I was invited to an event where Dr. Stephen Covey, the late, great Dr. Stephen Covey, author of Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, was the opening speaker, Libby Sartain, who at that time was the chief people officer for Yahoo! And I was the closing speaker. And I just wanted to sit in and hear Dr. Covey because I was so fascinated. And he made this statement, which was originally, I think, quote by Wayne Dyer, and he said, We are not human beings having a spiritual experience where spirit beings having a human experience. And when I heard a joke, it was like a joy bomb, like BOOM!. I was like, what's that? And what I begin to recognize is all of us, we have a spirit. But how we show up into an environment, we either are hugging people with our words or we're tearing people down with our words and and words impact our spirit because words carry energy. And so we are spirit beings having a human experience. I believe what we're going through now is everybody is being spiritually reset. Whatever spirituality means to everyone, they are thinking about meaning, not just money. Yes, money's important, but they're thinking about is my life really meaningful to thinking about power, not just or they're thinking about purpose, not just power, but that I think the other part of the spiritual reset that's happened is that people are also thinking about moving from success to significance. And that's so important when you're on the spiritual journey. Joe: And then there was another line in there, and again, I remember now that you brought it to my attention that Stephen Covey had said that and you had heard it in that that event. But hearing it from you gave it a different meaning when I listen to the audio book. So I had to bring it up because it was just like, man, I got to remember that and just keep that in the forefront of my mind. But then there was another one which was live from the inside out. Simon: Mm hmm, yet when you look from the inside out, you break the cycle of fear and worry because see what happens is now uncertainty and worry has driven up stress and anxiety. And when a person is stressed out and they are living in fear and worry, it actually slows down the human operating system. So when you live from the inside out, what you're saying is, I'm not going to allow the outside circumstances to dictate how I what I produce, how I show up, how I thrive or survive. I'm going to take control of the steering wheel of my life and drive into the future and not be driven by all the news around me that's living from the inside out now. Yes, we need to be informed. Yes, we need to be well read. Yes, we need to pay attention to significant notifications that hit our phones. When you live from the inside out, what you realize is life is not a remote control. You can change the channel on your tell-a-vision. So when I live from the inside out, I am literally forecasting my future instead of living in the predictions of the day. Joe: When we talk about the book, but what's the audience that really needs something like this? Simon: Yes, so the book is written to that person who say twenty five to fifty five and they have either been furloughed or they're back at work, they're waiting for the other shoe to drop because now there's massive pressure to do to do more with less and working now might be working remote. So they're having to deal with the new world. But it's also written to that entrepreneur who says, I've done X, now I need to do Y and Z. How do I begin to harness the power of what we've done to be relevant for where things are going? It might be that solopreneur or that person who said, you know what I'm thinking about this is the time to go for it. And literally, I give you the tips and techniques on how to shift your brilliance, because it's my exact story when I left is the question. My entire for one with significant housing stock took out a line of credit on the house. So when I wrote "Shift Your Brilliance", I was probably already 10 years into my business. But I was thinking what had made me successful ten years in 10 years would make me successful in another 10 years. And I was wrong. Joe: Again, I keep thinking that people just think the Calvary's coming, you know, Simon: Oh, no, no. Joe: It's. Simon: Listen, every industry that literally can be turned upside down is being turned upside down. When you hear about retail like Brooks Brothers, Neiman Marcus filing for bankruptcy, J.C. Penney. These are these are brands that you thought would be around forever. And they are they're just going to look different, Joe: Yeah, Simon: ? Joe: Yeah, and by the way, you would know Neiman Marcus because I've seen you dress, so I know that Simon: Good. Joe: I know they love they love seeing you walk in the door because I've seen sharp and really sharp. It's funny because I met you there because I own management booking agency here in Phoenix and Scottsdale, Arizona. And then we expanded into Colorado last summer. I spent six weeks there developing all these relationships to take what I've done here with success and move it out there. So I'm in the same boat as you. There was nothing going on. I'm just starting to put some entertainment back in the resorts. But when I work with these destination management companies who you know well through the corporate world, who books entertainment to the level of someone like you, they're starting to come to me going, OK, what are the virtual options? And so have you been doing some virtual speaking? Simon: I've done about 25 virtual events in the last 100 days, Joe: Wow, that's Simon: And Joe: Amazing. Simon: It is it has been just a rewarding experience and now I've told the team, hey, let's get it down. I can do two to three a day, you know, Joe: Yeah, Simon: Let's go. Joe: Yeah, Simon: Yeah, let's go. Joe: And where are you doing them from? Are you doing where you are now or. Simon: Really that now and every now and then, I will put up, depending on the setting, I will, you know, just change my screen there and . Joe: Exactly, exactly. Simon: This is the world we live in. And, yeah, it's been a great experience. I really love this virtual setting and I can't wait for life to come back, but I'm totally fine with doing the hybrid. Joe: Yeah, I was just wondering, because I know that's how we met, so I was wondering how you're faring through all of this and how many times you've done the whole virtual the virtual experience. So and and while we're talking about live, when you did give that talk, I noticed that you very rarely stood on the stage. And I don't know how do you know the number of people that were there were like 15 or 18 or twenty five hundred. Simon: They were expecting to lose about twelve hundred. Joe: Twelve hundred, OK, so for me and someday I aspire to maybe public speaking, so we'll see if that happens, but that's why for me, it was so interesting to watch you and you were on the floor most of the time. And so why do you when do you choose to do something like that? Simon: So, so many times everybody is looking at the stage, the stage on stage, and what I really believe people really want is a connection. And can you imagine that was probably the last presentation that I've given with that amount of people where there was no physical distance yet we had even heard of social distancing. Joe: . Simon: . So what I like to do is I like to have a conversation with people. So me coming off stage allows me to be almost like a jazz artist in the moment. I can reflect. I know where we need to go. I'm going to I'm going to stay on time. But I also get to do things on the fly in the moment. And it can only happen if I'm looking face to face with the human being. Joe: Yeah, I thought it was really different because there were so many people there and I was close enough to the front and towards an aisle, so I was happy. But I think some of those people in the back might be like, I can't really tell what he's doing or where he is, Simon: Which Joe: But. Simon: Is why they've got the IMAX, so Joe: Yeah, Simon: I knew they had and they had the cameras and Joe: Yeah, Simon: They would project me on the screen Joe: Yeah. Simon: And good on the video as well, because on a video, if I'm only on stage, you don't see the audience. So for your purposes to come off the stage, you see the audience. It is spontaneous and it's in the moment. Joe: Yeah, it was great, I was captivated the entire time. I love listening to you talk, conscious mind versus unconscious mind, that also hit me when I was listening to the audio book. And I understand it because I work on at least my own. I try to do meditation when I can remember to. It's tough. I was in a really good routine at one point and I slipped a little bit. At least I'm doing yoga almost three times a week. So it's Simon: Very. Joe: It's at least a little bit of a balance. But can you go into that a little bit more? Simon: Yeah, so one of the things I really believe is, as you know, in the unconscious mind, we just do things automatically, like if you get in, you drive in your car, you're going to go the way you always go. It's just unconscious. But when you become conscious, you're paying attention to what am I thinking? Thoughts, what am I saying? Words, and then what is the habit or behavior that I'm doing? And then what? It's that slight adjustment that I need to course correct in order to get better. So I'll give you a prime example. I've been working on losing weight and this has just been an ongoing battle for 20 years. So I decided during this COVID-19 time that my health coach sent me a Fitbit. So I got the Fitbit and it's monitoring my walk. So I go on a walk every morning. I get in at least seven to eight thousand steps within forty five minutes. But then I come. I came back home and I started doing push ups. Just ten push ups and sit ups will now up to 40. Now, I don't say that to be braggadocios or anything, but here's the deal. When I became conscious that I really want to lose weight, I start I stop focusing on losing the weight and focused on a healthy lifestyle, some conscious of that. I work out that I sleep. Did I drink my water? I got my water here. Did I actually take my vitamins? How am I eating better? So it's becoming conscious to say there's something I have to do every single day to move towards where I'm going. And I'm happy to say that I lost ten pounds over the last six weeks, but I have a good 10 to 15 to go and I'm excited about it because it's a conscious, healthy lifestyle instead of I have to lose weight because now the emphasis is on losing instead of maintaining and being healthy. Joe: No, well, that's great, congratulations, And see, and that's what I like about your post and when I watch your videos and is that you take things that so many of these people have been hearing for years and years, but there's a way that you word things and you shift things in your speech or you change the way someone thinks about something. And it's sometimes just that shift alone helps people to then understand it better and say, I can do that. And it's Simon: This. Joe: It was it's literally doing the same thing, as was mentioned five hundred other times, but it's the way it was said or the way it was presented. And that's what's cool about you. That is. Yeah. Another thing that popped out and stop me at any time where you want to dig in deeper to anything in the book. These are all the things that just jumped out at me. So information to revelation, that's a strong phrase. Simon: Yeah, so what I have discovered over many decades of studying, researching and really being mentored by very, very wise men and women, is that information is knowledge. OK, but then the next level below information is understanding, which is comprehension. So, for example, when I go to get my driver's license, I have read everything that I need to know to get the license. That's information. That's knowledge. But it's the understanding that if I don't stop at the stop sign and a cop sees me, I'm going to be pulled over and given a ticket because I ran through a stop sign. So now I have understanding to stop at the stop sign, to stop at the red light. It's not just information, but then the next level down is revelation and revelation is application. So car example, if I'm in my car driving, as my dad used to tell me, you have to drive for the car in front of you and the car behind you. I grew up in Buffalo, New York. So dealing with snow all the time. You know, if you're driving, you don't want to pay attention to the snow bag because somehow the car is going to veer over. So. So you have a revelation that I want to look straight ahead. Simon: I don't want to end up over there, but it's it's like that causes you to drive straight ahead and avoid an accident. So when I talk about my information revelation, it's really understanding that sometimes we can have information that is a mile wide but only an inch deep. And when I moved to revelation, I have the ability to go three to four levels down in in whatever I'm working on. So when we look through this COVID-19 time. All , let's just look at it from a revelation standpoint. So the first is PTSD is going to be at an all time high because there's fear, stress and worry on the planet. . We also understand that that the magnetic fields, climate change, everything is just being turned upside down. We also then recognize that industries are collapsing and being reinvented. The fourth level is we also realize that during this time that corporations see this as an opportunity to furlough and to lay people off and never bring them back, because we are in a world of automation, algorithms, artificial intelligence like never before. But the fifth level, which is so I think even more powerful, we also see the companies that have cash who have been sitting on the sidelines waiting. Simon: They're going to poach and buy up companies. So if you remember, just a few years ago, Apple had over one hundred and seventy billion dollars in an offshore account. And due to the Patriot Act, they could bring it back and not have to pay as much. But when you have that much cash, you could go and buy companies. Warren Buffett, the Oracle of Omaha, they have over a hundred billion dollars of cash sitting and waiting. So when everyone is running scared and worried as as a good friend of mine, a hedge fund investor, he said, Simon, the money is made in the dip. You don't make the money at the top of the mountain. You make it when everybody is running scared. So when you think about revelation, it's going five levels deep, saying, what do you see that others don't see? What what are you noticing? What's the budget day? Because we will hear of companies that will literally come through this that time. And we're like, where do they come from? Because they decided to play another game. They shifted their brilliance and what the opposite direction. So everyone was zigging. They were zagging. Joe: Yes, so let me ask you this, when you wrote this in 2014, what sparked it? Like I can see you writing it now, like I can see you writing it on March 15th going well. I need to write this because we're in some deep stuff now. So if I really put my head down and I can get this done in 30, and that's another thing I'd love to do some days, write a book. But if you put your head down, you could have maybe finished it by April 15th and now it would be out. But it makes total sense now. And that's why when I listen to it, I was like, gosh, this is like he he knew it was coming. It's like, well, what made you write it in twenty fourteen. Simon: My business had dried up. I was holding on by a thread Joe: And what was Simon: Business Joe: That just Simon: Wise, and Joe: Was that Simon: Yes, Joe: Speaking and Simon: I was Joe: Coaching? Simon: I was I wasn't getting the bookings at the feed that I needed, because when I quit my job, my wife, my then wife didn't work outside the home. So everything was on me. And we had young kids, mortgage, private school, the whole nine yards. So the business wasn't coming in and and the book sales weren't moving. We had a consultant project that had come to an end that had kind of given me a buffer. And so literally it was dry as toast business wise. And I said, you know what, I got to shift what I'm doing. I've got to think differently. And that's when I began to realize I'm not in the business. I'm in the content media distribution business. And the money is in content. That's what I remember at Disney. So I recognize if I didn't shift my my brilliance and reinvent and let go of what had been working and move into another direction, I probably wouldn't be here today talking to you. So what I realize is I can always do the speaking. But then I started adding coaching. I started adding training, I started doing online learning. And that's when I got connected with the folks over at then it was Lynda.com was called LinkedIn Learning Now and they said, you need to put your course into micro content. I was like, what's micro content? And there they're like three to five minutes of the snippet where you don't give it all away, but you chuck it down and people can access it. Twenty four, seven, three sixty five. Joe I had never heard of it. I was like what? I've always delivered on stage. But now all of a sudden a new opportunity came out of nowhere. And it's kind of like when Netflix had an opportunity to be purchased by Blockbuster and Blockbuster didn't see it will look more. Netflix is now and Blockbuster. ? So I had five when I wrote the book. Do I want to be Netflix or do I want to be Blockbuster? Joe: Wow, and did you is it basically the book, did it come as you were making this transition yourself? Were you take would you take everything that you sort of did and put it into the book as you were physically working on yourself and mentally and emotionally and whatever your transformation is, basically this book during 2014. Simon: So you ask a very important question, what a lot of people know, the book that came out in twenty fourteen was actually a book that I had written back in 2008 during the financial meltdown, Joe: Wow. Simon: And it was a different title. So the book has gone through three title changes and twenty five rewrites over almost two to three year period because I had to live through the shift. So the reason some of the words pop off the page from a just an energetic standpoint, because I wrote it from a deep place I was living, I was in the thick of it, so I was phoning it in. It was literally my life. I had to change the title because when I went to a publisher there, "Vuja de Moment", that's, you know, that's like esoteric. What the great for the average person could understand Joe: . Simon: It. So what if we do this together? Like, no, Shift Your Brilliance. And I said, OK, that's what I'm living. But I had to live through it in order to write about it. Joe: Yeah, that's incredible. It's and you could tell and I really hope a lot of the listeners and viewers of the YouTube channel will go in and get the book because I'm doing it like obviously I have no choice. So it's so funny. I'm a musician at heart. I actually went to school out at Fredonia. Out where? Simon: Oh. Joe: Yeah. And and I played a lot in Buffalo. I played at the Lafayette Taproom. I don't know if that was there when you were there. I don't know. Simon: We Joe: Yeah. Simon: Got a good. Joe: Yeah, I got a I got a buddy that lives in Williamsville. Yeah. So when I found out you lived in Buffalo, I think man, when I picked that school to go to college and I was waking up at eight o'clock in the morning to go to theory and walking through four feet of snow, I was like, what were you thinking? Simon: Wow. Joe: Gone to Miami or somewhere. Oh, this is a great phrase. Broadband results on a dial up network. I love that. I heard that. I was like, gosh, I got to make signs of all of these things and just put them around my office. Simon: You have to evaluate how often are we upgrading what we're doing and here why this is why this is important for everyone listening to us from the time Apple releases the iPhone. OK, over many years, . The iPhone had 18 upgrades from two thousand seven to twenty nineteen eighteen upgrades. Every upgrade of the iPhone, a camera was better. More storage on and on. But what's interesting, if you look at that over 12 years, 12 times, 12, 12 years, 12 months is one forty four, one forty four divided by 18 upgrades simply means every eight months Apple was upgrading what they were doing because if they didn't, everybody else out of the market would catch up. So when I made the statement, we sometimes want broadband results by using dial up methods. It's the challenge that if I'm not upgrading my mindset, my skill set, my will set, then there's somebody else that's catching up when I'm asleep. Joe: People should make that sign and just put it somewhere, especially during this time now, you know what I mean? Just trying to get the word out to say this is this is like of we've been given. What did I say? I said something about where you thought you had a deadline March 1st for some assignment a teacher gave you and the biggest gift and you totally hadn't done a thing. And the biggest gift that you got was the teacher gave you six months to get it done. And I Simon: That's. Joe: Feel like this period of time, I don't know if this will ever happen again in history. Like I went through 9/11 with an office in New York, like I owned the company. I was on 38th Street and Broadway. Everything shut down just like this. And now obviously we got hit a lot harder than the rest of the country because New York just stopped. The rest of the world, paused for a moment and then started to pick back up. New York just stopped. So I've gone through that. And then, like you said, we've gone through the 2008 crisis and then now this. And when each time these things happen, I was less stressed because I I knew that I would just figure out a way and shift and change and pivot and move on. So I never even though I my company was just slamming up and told when we were out in in Colorado every couple of days, I'd get a phone call from another client because I book a lot of resort entertainment here and it would come in little dribs and drabs and say, hey, I think we're going to have to cancel the music. Things are starting to get a little weird here. And I'm thinking, OK, and then it just hit. And then everyone call like within four days and said we're I need everything canceled until further notice. I was like, oh my God, now. And but I never stressed about it because I knew I was going to pivot and do something different. And I was able to finally start my podcast, which I had put down on a piece of paper. And I think in twenty fifteen. So here we are, twenty twenty. And I finally have the opportunity to get it . Simon: That's so that hey, that's so good. Same thing with me. We had over six figures worth of business disappeared seven days Joe: And. Simon: That night and some of it canceled, some of it moved to next Joe: Mm Simon: Year. Joe: Hmm. Simon: Some of it they just we never heard back from that. They just and then we also had to refund about five figures of of money back to folks who just wanted their money back. You know, Joe: Yeah. Simon: And what I recognize, I can either stay bitter or I can get better. And I was already working on some new things that I said are, let's hit the gas. Let's go. Joe: Yeah, yeah, I hear you, man. OK, here's another phrase that I heard in the in the audio book, Make a U-turn. I don't remember the context of it, but I'm hoping you do. Simon: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so I'm sitting at the beach and on the way to the beach with my family because living here in Florida, we're really big beach people. And you know how you see a sign that says you're so many miles away from the destination? Well, I thought, hey, I know a better way how I'm going to get there. Well, I went almost 30 to 40 minutes in the wrong direction, so I had to make a U-turn to come back because my my my wife had said to me at the time, you know, you should turn there. And I'm like, no, I got, you know, typical guy, . All directions. Joe: , , . Simon: So clearly, I'm sitting up, sitting by the pool the next day and I got a little drink with a pink umbrella and it hits me what happens when a person is heading in a direction and they never make a U-turn and see what I say, U-turn. It's not just the letter U. It's YOU u turn. Because when you turn, that's when you notice all the opportunities and possibilities that were waiting for you to make a turn. But if you never make the turn, you can miss it. Joe: And it's so funny because I think having GPS now has saved a lot of arguments in cars with the guys because we're always , we'll go out of our way to just say, no, we didn't miss any turn. Fail forward... Simon: Yeah, you know, in the dictionary, failure comes before success, and I'll never forget I went to speak for the CEO Council of Tampa Bay, and during the debrief time, one of the executives said that he had he gets out of failure award every quarter. And the failure award is to encourage his team members to fail. And I happen to go back and talk to them again. And I said, do you still give out the failure award? He says, no, we changed it. We changed it to fail faster. And what he was saying is so many people walk on eggshells at work. They don't want to break out and do anything that's out of the norm because they want to play it safe. And real breakthroughs comes when you walk on the edge, when you do something that you haven't done before. That's where the breakthrough is. So failure comes before success. If you go to the dictionary, fail faster because failure is not a bad word. It's only feedback. And the quicker you fail, then you can quickly see what won't work. Listen, I have failed more times than I can count on both hands. ? But I can tell you those failures have informed some of the successes that we've experienced as well. Joe: Yeah, so it's too bad the word has such a bad connotation to it, because you're , it's just it's just a flare. It's just, hey, this this wasn't or something didn't work. But instead, it makes you feel as if you're less of whatever you're trying to do, whether it's less of a human, less of a father, less of a business person, less of whatever. And it's too bad it has that that feeling or that label attached to it. Simon: Yes, Joe: You know, and Simon: Yes. Joe: Like you just worded it, it's it's you need those things in order to know if you didn't have those signals, how would you know that something was wrong or that you need to change? . Simon: Exactly. Joe: Ok, you're going to have to help me on this one because it's Chapter seven. And all I put was it's about today. I assume it's about the time we're living in. But I didn't put any more than that. Simon: Yes, so what I was really getting at about today is so many times we are future focused that we forget to be present in the moment today. And if we focus on today, tomorrow, it's going to take care of itself. But who we are today goes into our future, waits for us to get there and says, welcome, we've been waiting for you. So what are you doing today? Is this the highest and best use of your time today? Joe: Are you in your space now with what's happening and the pivot's you're making, the changes you're making, how much different do you feel than you did when things were rocking and rolling in January of this year? Simon: Yeah, you know what, I have to be really, really real with you. I struggled for about a good thirty to forty five days when this first first of the year I was rocking and rolling. I was in my groove. I was great. Life was wonderful. I've been home since obviously March 13th. And for a few of the weeks, I just was down in the dumps. I was ticked off. I was like, oh my goodness, woe is me. What's this virtual thing? What, what, what, what, what. And then. And then I said, Wait a minute. Hello, buddy. You know, a little of your cooking, if Joe: The. Simon: Not a little bit. So I got up and I looked at my wounds and stopped crying over spilled milk and all of the contracts that it cancelled and realized entrepreneurship is not easy. If it was easy, everybody would be doing it, Joe: A man, Simon: But. Joe: Gus. Simon: You know, you don't earn your stripes, entrepreneur, when you're on top of the mountain in the valley, when no one is coming to save Joe: . Simon: You, the phone is not ringing and you're looking at your bank account and say, I need to make a payroll. Joe: Yeah, Simon: And so we mentioned the IRS, Joe: Yeah, Simon: . It's a real brother. Joe: Yeah. Simon: It is real. And that's what I just said. OK, I've got a choice to make. First quarter got second, third quarter, it's going to look a little bit different, so I told our team we're not going to dial for dollars to try to get business. We're just going to love on people and help them understand that serving is the new selling. So who could we serve? So we just reached out to clients and say, hey, we'll do a free virtual whatever you need, bring your team. And I just started doing a ton of those. And it's so rewarding. And then almost counterintuitive, we started getting calls for business Joe: Yeah. Simon: And it's just like we weren't even setting out to do that, but it just happened. So, yeah. Joe: Yeah, and I was curious because, like I said, you never know what's going on behind the curtain with anybody, ? And you Simon: Yes. Joe: And I don't know each other that well, but there's something that just comes through the screen, comes through on the videos, definitely when I'm there in person with you. And to me, I would have been that person that had gotten down and I flowed through. Like people were just like how people are calling me How, because I, I, I think we sent out probably over one hundred, ten, ninety nines for twenty nineteen because we have so many entertainers on our roster and it's literally everything across the board and they're all reaching out. How are you holding up. Because they knew everything dried up and I was like man and I know people think I'm nuts, but this was such a blessing for me because I just needed this time to do other things. And, and and I have I have not stopped with someone as positive as you. I wanted to just kind of get a feel for how does Simon T Bailey handle a situation like this to me? He'd be like, oh, we got this. And so I was just wondering if and and I appreciate you explaining that you aren't the superhero that I think you are, that you did have your moment, which is very human. But like you said, you you lick your wounds. You stood back up and said, OK, now it's time to get busy and stop crying. . Or whatever. Simon: And you know, when I came out of this fog, I realized I needed to start cooking, so I started cooking. I've learned how to cook a little bit enough to survive. I stop binge watching on on everything. That was all. I turn the TV off. I started reading. I started writing, I started thinking and I started doing Zoom calls, almost like as a mastermind with different people from different areas of business, just getting input insight. And all of a sudden I was like, OK, wow, OK, here's what we need to do. And once I got into the groove, because I love all things business and I love what I do, I just start seeing all the opportunity. You and I said, OK, we're going to have to come to this. But probably the most important and I would be remiss if I didn't say this COVID-19 and my my my prayers and heart goes out to all of those who've been directly impacted in either losing a loved one or have been impacted by it. But for me, it has been a time for me to get closer to my children. I've got a twenty one year old sophomore in college, Daniel, a daughter who graduated. She's the COVID-19 graduate, you know, graduated from high school to head the college. Interesting time of life. Two kids in college, ? So I'm like, OK, I'm writing checks now. Joe: Oh. Simon: It's just like in school you go to school at seventeen thousand dollars a year. I'm like, oh, Joe: Oh, Simon: Like, Joe: Man. Simon: Yo. But here's what I did during this COVID-19 time. I hired both of them as my research assistants. So every Sunday night they have to read a book that I have purchased for the different books, business books. They have to listen to a podcast, listen to a YouTube video, watch or view an article, and then they have to write a summary and answer seven to nine questions. They have to turn it in by Thursday at five p.m. I pay about twenty dollars a day. They could take Friday off and we're already seven weeks into this. And it's all the things that Dad said you should know. Now I'm paying them to learn because it's actually research for another book that I'm working on, but it's probably closer to my children. This is your covid-19 time, so I'm just eating it up. Joe: That's awesome. Are they going to school there where you can see them? So they're going you're in Florida, ? You're Simon: Not in Florida, Joe: At. Simon: So so my son is online and my daughter, believe it or not, she's actually going to go to campus, the private school, private college, and she's going to their class ratio is maybe one professor to 20 students. So they're just going to practice physical distancing and she'll start in the fall. But I'm excited for them. But we've gotten closer Joe: Yeah, that's great. Simon: And so it's been good. Joe: Yeah, are your Simon: Yeah. Joe: Beaches open or closed? Simon: The beaches are open, you know, here in Florida, we we kind of march to the beat of a different drummer and we love our beaches. Joe: I don't blame you, I I grew up on the East Coast, so I'm from New York originally, so. Simon: Oh, Joe: Yeah, Simon: Yeah. Joe: I don't blame you. Brilliant versus average. Simon: So average living is dead, as we would say here in the south, that dog won't hunt. So the days of doing average work with an average attitude is gone um average people show up to collect a check. Brilliant people show up to add value. What I discovered after interviewing top performers, those who got promoted, who were promoted over time, they discovered that a paycheck is given to people who show up, but opportunities are given to people who work and think beyond what they're paid to do. That's a difference between average versus brilliant. Joe: So you can help me with this, because I I and I was there like I'm not I don't ever see these things as if I had all the answers. I'm fifty eight. I'm I'm a late bloomer, like, you know, I'm working Simon: Young Joe: Now. Simon: Man. Joe: Yeah. I'm working on this stuff as if I'm reinventing myself. And I feel like so many people get stuck in thinking they can't do things and I don't know where that comes from. I know it's fear is part of it, but there's got to be a way to say, listen, all the people that use you look up to or you see or you aspire to become or they all they all have to figure it out the same way we all put our pants on one leg at a time type thing. . So how is it to how do you try to get people to shift their their frame of mind to say, listen, you can do this just as much as anyone else. It just takes hard work. But other than that, some of these people are like lifelong learners, but they literally don't do anything . They take course after course, conference after conference, seminar after seminar or whatever, and they just don't do anything with it. Simon: You know, it's it really comes down to something so simple and not to be simplified, but there's a Yiddish proverb that says the only person that likes change is a wet baby. And what I've discovered, the reasons people don't go for it is because they don't want to change. So think about it. When you first learn to ride a bike, probably you fell, ? You perhaps started your business. You started had some success, but maybe experienced a little failure. It was a change that you had to make. Just look at this whole virtual world like everybody now understands Zoom. But when they first heard Zoom, you're like, no, no way. Or you could get changed. All of a sudden you're telling other people, did you know that you can go in the chat and you could do this? You could do that. So until people are willing to take just a little step, I don't have any entrepreneurs in my family. I'm the first one in my family to leave a nine to five and venture out into these uncharted waters. Why do I why did I do it? Well, first of all, it was a dream, but a dream until you put feet to it. And it's just something in the sky. You got to move every single day. And until people are really ready to change, they don't want it bad enough. You got to be hungry and go after it. Joe: Yeah, I guess that's just it, , it's not it's not even the fear, because if you want to bet enough, you'll push the fear aside. Simon: Anything you want, your first car, your first home, your first job, you become laser focus and you go after it. Joe: Well, this brings me to the last thing I had on my know, which was and this is perfect shift or be shifted, ? Simon: When you look at that work shift, shift, if we were to break that down, simply means see how I fit tomorrow, see how I fit tomorrow shift. That's the acronym. So if if I don't shift, see how I fit tomorrow, I will be shifted by everything in every one. So let's look at a prime example. How many malls are going to survive after this? COVID-19 malls are going to forever be changed. But guess what? If they don't adapt and come up with a new model, the Amazon of the world is literally going to shift and replace them. And if it's that simple, so everyone listening to us now, they have to say, don't wait for the tap on the shoulder or the phone call with your boss. You shift before you shifted. So how do I begin to look at my workplace through a fresh lens if I'm an entrepreneur? Who are the top 20 percent in my field? What are they pivoting to? What are they doing? How do I begin to ask a different set of questions that allows me to shift before I'm shifted? Joe: Yeah, and that's , this is what we're talking about now, the Calvary is not coming . You have to shift, you have to do it on your own or you're going to be shifted for sure. And it might be wherever. Simon: Yes. Joe: Yeah. Is there anything else about the book you want to talk about before? I don't want to keep you we're just about at an hour. And I know you're a busy man. So is Simon: One Joe: There. Simon: Thing, there are exercises in the book that I encourage each person to go through, and also we have an online course called "Shift Your Brilliance" system that people can walk through to take their teams through it. And we've gotten rave rave reviews from people who've gone through the course, and it's at simontbailey.com. Joe: Awesome, so I'll put all of this stuff in the show notes for everybody so they'll have all the links. What is the best way to get in contact with you? Simon: Yeah, they just go to simontbailey.com, "T" for terrific, Joe: Exactly. Simon: As we really Joe: Love it. Simon: Got to. Joe: So my my middle initials, P. So I can't say P for perfect, because that's not going to fly. Simon: P for Powerful. Joe: There you go. OK. I like that, OK. Like I said, I'll put all of that in there. I can't thank you enough for doing this. I you know, I respect you so much. I love watching all your videos, Instagram stuff that pops up. So it's super inspiring to me. Someday if I can get my speaking act together, maybe I'll ask you for advice someday on how I get my first one and how I Simon: Oh. Joe: Can get to the point. And maybe we'll share a stage someday before I take a dirt nap or say. Simon: Thank you. Thank you so much. Joe: Thanks. Thanks a lot for coming on here again. I appreciate it from the bottom of my heart, I really appreciate your time. And it was an honor to speak with you. Simon: Thank you, Joe. Joe: Ok, man, you take care of yourself. Simon: Take care.

How to Build Out an Accounting System Using Automation with Scott Scharf

Play Episode Listen Later Jul 28, 2020 44:55

On‌ ‌today's‌ ‌episode,‌ ‌we‌ bring back ‌Scott‌ ‌Scharf‌ to talk about‌ ‌how‌ ‌to‌ ‌build‌ ‌out‌ ‌an‌ ‌accounting‌ ‌system‌ ‌using‌ ‌automation.‌ ‌ Scott is the Co-Founder of Catching Clouds, an outsourced cloud accounting service for e-commerce businesses. Topics: Why accounting is a daily, weekly, and monthly endeavor. The best accounting software. Setting clients up for accrual. Understanding the technological ecosystem. Switching from cash-basis accounting. Refining the process of cash flow projections. Why cash is king. One thing to increase optimization. Transcription: Joe: Mark, I said many times that I actually fell asleep in accounting class in college. And unfortunately, it was Northeastern University and there were probably 200 people in the room. I was sitting near the door. So 199 people marched out with me there, my head on my desk, drooling, and then the next class came in yet somehow I'm in the position over the last eight years of really revealing a bare minimum of 5,000 profit and loss statements. And I get on my soapbox and preach about this; how important good clean financials are, not only for an entrepreneur's ability to analyze his own business and make sure they're driving towards their goals properly, but to be able to even just get in the room with highly qualified buyers. Once you get in the room, there's a ton of other things, but the P&Ls will get you in the room. And I understand you just had another conversation with our good friend Scott Scharff from Catching Clouds about building automation into accounting so you don't have to actually do this yourself day in and day out, week in and week out by building some automation into the process, either through QuickBooks or Xero. I understand Scott has preferences for both and good things and bad things to say about both. Mark: Yeah, so you're not the only one that fell asleep in accounting class. I did as well. If you looked at my grades, you'd wonder why I'd talk about accounting so much. But you know this Joe I've been working my way through some biographies of various titans of American business. I went through John D. Rockefeller. I'm now in the middle of a biography on Andrew Carnegie. And you know what one thing they both have in common? They were religious about their books. In fact, that was one of the big advantages that Carnegie brought into his business, was detailed books that they could optimize. I just find it fascinating that we can see that this is the case all the way through history what the people have been super successful. Their books are up to date. They're clean. They use them to optimize their businesses. And Scott and I talked a lot about how to do that with an Amazon business. I'm not going to lie, it was overwhelming, partly because Scott is crazy intelligent when it comes to this stuff and he has his systems all set up and he starts throwing around this system, that system, you just hook this up and you do that and then the other thing happens. And in my head, I'm thinking, how can anyone even start this? And at the end of this episode, you'll hear me kind of say that to him. I'm like Scott, this is overwhelming. How do you even get started? But the idea is simple and it is you just get started. He said something in this episode, which I didn't call out in the middle of the episode, but I think is really, really key. He said that of all the financial records that he sees people put together, he will see sometimes accountants that don't know the Amazon world trying to do books, and then he'll see some owners doing their own books. He said both are typically a mess but the ones done by the owners are less a mess than those being done by the bookkeepers because the bookkeepers don't know anything about Amazon. Joe: That is CPAs you mean, right? Not the bookkeepers. Mark: Yes. Joe: Yeah, I'll agree with them a million percent because CPAs do taxes, bookkeepers manage books, and owners try to manage books as well but never quite as good. So I think he's spot on. Guys, listen, and by guys, that's a unisex term. Pay attention to this. I know I preach on it sometimes and I'm so sorry, but it's because I'm here to help you. I'm here to protect you. We are entrepreneurs, we're advisers, we're brokers, we're mentors, and we're your friends, and we're sharing this information for you to help you build a better business and have a better exit someday. Even if that someday is 20 years from now, if you've got automation in your books like Scott is talking about here with Mark, it's going to make your life easier and help you make more money. So with that, let's move to it. But before we do, I want you all to send an email to Mark to discuss whether Carnegie is pronounced Carnegie or Carnegie. Mark: That's a really good question. I go both ways by the way. The author of this; it's an audiobook, he's saying Carnegie so I'm saying Carnegie now. Joe: Okay, Carnegie Hall is where I've been before, but I don't know either. I actually said we have a client that is a one, two, three, fourth remove descendant of Teddy Roosevelt and I pronounced it Roosevelt because I Googled that. Mark: That's wrong. Joe: I know. It was dead wrong. Mark: Carnegie, Carnegie Accounting, let's do accounting. Joe: There we go. All right. Here we go. Mark: Scott, thank you so much for coming back on the podcast. I know you are on the podcast a while ago. I think we talked about the ultimate seller's checklist about the things that you have to do, both leading up to a sale and then after the sale, closing on the business but I'm excited about today's conversation. We're going to talk a little bit about bookkeeping and the reason I'm excited about this and I know people in the cars or wherever you're listening at would be like I need to stay awake, I want to talk bookkeeping. I hop on this all the time. Bookkeeping is so important and there's so much data in your books if you keep them right. I had a conversation with somebody just the other day who is ready to sell. He's got a great business that's growing like crazy and he's going to have to put things on hold to flip over to accrual because that's what we require now. And so I want to talk to you about this because it's what you guys do over at Catching Clouds. Why don't you just kind of give a quick introduction for those that are listening to you for the first time? Scott: Okay, cool. Thank you. That was a while ago and that was a good conversation. So Catching Clouds, we provide outsourced cloud accounting services to e-commerce businesses. So our whole focus is only working with businesses that are selling a physical widget on Amazon, eBay, Shopify, Bigcommerce, TrueCommerce, House, Wayfair, Wish, Amazon Canada, CO, UK. Really most of our clients are those more complex multi-channel sellers and we're working with the larger established businesses and the one to fifty million dollar range. But the main value we offer is we provide the bookkeeping, accounting, and controller level review of their financials and we do all the work. The clients get read-only access to the financials. They threw everything over the wall to us and we leverage technology to pull everything together and then we turn that into accurate financials. And we just consider ourselves part of our client's businesses. Were just part of their team. Mark: Why? I mean, let me just start off with kind of an obvious question and one that I think if somebody is not at the million-dollar revenue or fifty million dollar revenue level, why are companies at that level hiring and spending money on a company like yours? Why is it that their financials are important enough to have that controller level service like yours? Scott: Yeah, so the main thing is that they feel out of control. And we have talked all about management accounting, not just year-end for taxes; we're like a clock, strike twice a day. And otherwise, you only know; and if anything it is extended, you only know if you're profitable in September for the whole prior year. And our whole focus is accountings at daily, weekly, monthly piece and that the owners at a minimum have to stop, take a step back and look at their financials and adjust their gut feeling so they can make great decisions on a daily, weekly, monthly basis, which are all those decisions you have to make so that your business runs better. It's more efficient, it's more profitable, and better to sell because it's managed well. But if you don't get that feedback where we have people; sellers that will go, wow, that was my best month ever and we're like, yeah, you lost a bunch of money. And they're like, wait, what? Well, you spend all the money on this and you didn't pay attention to your marketing spend and you spent through all your profit on the marketing spend. And if you don't see that, it doesn't do any good to notice that six months from now. So it's those kind of things. Or when they're looking at any of the many real-time tools, there's a big difference between real-time tools to do re-pricing and high-level reporting and you can use to make real-time decisions on re-pricing product or what to buy and all that stuff, and then double-entry accounting that accounts for everything. And then we help them adjust they're gut. Hey, this tool always shows you your sales numbers 10% too high, and then they can adjust to it and make those real-time tweaks. But the real value is they're serious about being entrepreneurs. They understand and they hate doing accounting. Most of these businesses didn't go into business to pay sales tax or do accounting and they want somebody else to do it, but they want somebody else who can talk the talk, who understands where the FBA is and FBA reimbursements and inventory and accrual and landed costs. And they don't want to have to train the accountants on just the terminology, let alone what are all the crazy things Amazon does, what's the settlement statement, and all that crazy. So that somebody that they can trust is taking care of those financials and then it's our goal to educate them on how to read the financials themselves and provide insight. Mark: Yeah, I think you talked a lot about kind of those boots on the ground sort of decisions, those granular decisions. I think financials and getting comfortable with reading your financial statements there's two levels. I'm a big picture type of guy and I actually just recently did this with Quiet Light and with another company I own where I took a look at my financials over the course of the last year and I just simply broke down the expenses as a ratio of revenue in the big categories and where are we? And with Quiet Light one thing I want to do is up our data game. We've got a lot of data that we built on over the years, but it's not organized as well as it could be. It's not point and click we could pull this data up. It requires some work. And you know what? It shows in my P&L because we historically had a large tech department that's changing. With my other company, we should be more marketing focused and it was this kind of bigger directional sort of CEO sort of thing and saying, hey, you know what, we really need to double down on the marketing. So I think the financials have that kind of dual-level play of you get the big picture, but the granular boots on the ground sort of decisions too is important if you know how to read them and understand them. You guys help with that. You help laicized some of it. Scott: We do. And one of the key values we do is each of our controllers who are CPAs we don't do federal and state income taxes, but they understand accrual accounting, gap accounting, and everything else. But each one is supporting at least 10 sellers and we never share confidential information, SKUs, or whatever but we can look across all of our clients and say, hey, wow, you're spending three times as much on your Google ad spend as we've seen with our other clients and we're not seeing that show up in your income. And they're like, oh, I just launched a new product, in four weeks I'm going to cut that back. And then our controller as from an accountability puts it on the calendar, calls the seller and say cut it back so you can start making profit. It's okay to ramp up your marketing spend and burn through your profit for whatever number of weeks to launch a product but sometime you've got to back it down. And if you forget all your profit is flowing out. And so it's that comparison and we can do that common comparison, kind of small data, big data across our client base because they're all consistent because we have no restaurants or which would be bad or nonprofits or other things. So it's that insight of being able to see multiples and your business too, you have the same benefits of the fact that I've looked at over a thousand seller's books. You guys have looked probably at least that many if you get that when you're in this niche and you focus on these areas, you really understand the nuances and you see the different scenarios and then you can provide that feedback. Mark: Absolutely, specialization especially for what you guys do. It makes a huge difference. Let's start with talking about different types of software, because Joe Valley, the co-owner of Quiet Light he often, says Excel is not accounting software. Unfortunately, we see a lot fewer Excel books these days than we used to, although they still come up every once in a while. The two dominant ones seem to be QuickBooks and Xero. I have seen other systems thrown in there from time to time. I know you've dealt with NetSuite to an extent. What's your favorite, why, or are they equally good? Scott: So Pepsi, Coke, they're great. It's so great that they… Mark: I'm a pop guy. Scott: Okay, yeah. Mark: Oh no, I'm joking. I'm not, I don't drink pop or soda. Scott: Yeah, I know. So in general it's great that they're both out there, they're both heavy competitors, Xero does much better internationally. Intuit has a much bigger footprint here; a much, much bigger footprint here in the US. But because Xero came along and has been in the cloud and about six years ago, got 200 million in VC funds Intuit went uh-oh we better fix our cloud solution. So that helped anybody that was on QuickBooks. So today they're both feature consistent. Okay, so if you pick either platform one or the other, you're going to be okay. We prefer Xero. We think Xero is a better cloud platform. It's better with multi-currency. If you're doing multi-currency, it is by far significantly better. And then our view is that Xero is a better company. Intuit is a shareholder driven marketing company and that's all they care about. They don't care about accountants. They don't care about small business. I mean their marketing says they do. They are a big, big business. And Xero even though it's much bigger, is still only a few thousand people. It started in New Zealand and is very much about supporting businesses and being engaged in everything else. And they're just really upping the feedback always. Mark: Yeah, I've got a soft spot in my heart for Xero. I put my other company on it for a while. I actually had to take it off because I didn't like their PayPal integration at the time and that other company had a good amount of PayPal sales, but I just like how they set up the system philosophically. It just felt tighter. It felt like QuickBooks you could have all these loose ends kind of floating out there and Xero, like their name kind of alludes to, wants everything zeroed out and they wanted all the balance out. And philosophically, it felt better. What about NetSuite or other third-party systems? Are there other systems that you think are good to work with? Scott: Not really. Really it's in that small; even if you're a startup, you should start on Xero and QuickBooks and you should be doing accounting from day one even if you have no idea what you're doing. And every business owner, entrepreneur, you have to wear every hat in the business so you understand it enough so when you delegate it, you can oversee it. So you can start at that level and the only reason we would expect anybody that would outgrow Xero or QuickBooks online or us at that 50 million or whatever stage is when their supply chain gets more complicated. So we can talk about cloud inventory tools but the idea is need and I'm a big believer in best of breed; so Xero for cloud accounting, Gusto for payroll, A2X for Amazon and Shopify income, Hubdoc for document management, Bill.com and others and Veem for international wire. So we've got these set of tools but then the cloud inventory tool really has to be specific to the client. Almost all of them suck in different ways but there are some that are getting to be pretty good that you can use. But if you outgrow those or you can't find a tool that you need that will meet your supply chain and the number of 3PLs you have and your manufacturing process, then you might have to grow up to NetSuite. And if you're a larger business and you want to be able to; you're buying a lot of international stuff and you have customs invoices that show up six months after you've done a sale and you want to back-calculate all of your COGS into the past, the only way to do that is on NetSuite. Because we do monthly snapshot accounting so if there's an adjustment six months later we posted in that month, we don't go unravel everything and put it all back. So if you need that sophistication or you need a more advanced one but you're going to pay for it price wise and you're actually going to pay a penalty that in my opinion, not great integrations to pull data from these sites and it makes it difficult to impossible to at least reconcile Amazon working with the different NetSuite integrations. Mark: Well, let's talk a little bit about that because I want to talk about some of the automation of this because I think the biggest challenge with a lot of the software is figuring out how to pull in the data in an efficient manner and we especially run into this problem with accrual accounting. This is why so many bookkeepers mistakenly or misguidedly tell their clients you should just do cash basis, because for them it's a lot easier, right? You see the purchase order, you enter it in, and going through to an accrual, you need to check your beginning inventory levels at the beginning of the month and ending inventory levels to figure that out. And it's just more work than they want to do, frankly. How do you set your clients up? I want to talk two questions, one would be how do you set your clients up for forward-looking moving forward we're going to be on accrual and keeping that automation in place. And then secondly, what are easy ways if there is an easy way to go back and get those historical COGS on a monthly basis for an Amazon business? Scott: Yeah, the two sides income. I mean, the first piece would be the automation we look at is first making sure you're posting your income properly. If you sell a hundred widgets that you get paid for 100 widgets and so we use a tool called A2X accounting to post the Amazon income. We've been using it for six-plus years. If posted a penny, it breaks up a hundred plus Amazon fees and follows the accrual method by posting a summary invoice. Because the main thing we recommend for everybody, unless you're doing B2B or direct manual sales on turns, every other sale can be summarized on a daily or weekly or monthly invoice and A2X will post Amazon and Shopify income. For Shopify, it will post Shopify payments every day that matches the payout every day. So the first thing you want to do is be able to get all the income into the system properly and then A2X breaks out based on our design. We're their close partners. We're using it for a year and a half but we were in Alpha for about six months, but they'll post and our standard is to post all the income by payment processor. So on Shopify, if you're using Shopify Payments and Amazon Pay and PayPal and Globally and Sasol and Afterpay or whoever else. It'll break out each of those posted invoice for each of those merchant providers and then you can reconcile it. So that's how you get your income and it's going to post it in the right period as to when the sale happened, not when you got paid. The difference between accrual, you track everything. And in our opinion and accrual, not only do you need it for valuation, not only do you need accrual to make sure you have a balance sheet so you can see your inventory and your assets versus liabilities but it's also easier to look at that if you have these huge expenses that you pay for or you're buying a ton of inventory and you pay $100,000 this month in shipping charges you want to spread that out and as you sell the product, pull that out not pull it together. Now for COGS and inventory, if you're looking for your values, the best tool is just you can't do it on spreadsheets. Just like you can't run accounting on spreadsheets, you really need a cloud inventory tool. You need the automation so you have a structured process to purchase products through a purchase order so you know what you're paying for. I mean you're constantly updating your costs, you're receiving that inventory. So whether it's fraud or they forgot to put a case; you bought 20 cases and they only put 19 in and they were just going super fast, which is usually the problem not so much someone's trying to rip you off. And if you can't catch that in controller control, you just have money that's just leaking because inventory is just cash in a different form that you're trying to turn into more cash. And so you really need those tools that are pulling in every order because all of that detailed data doesn't have to live in the accounting and it shouldn't. Xero and Quickbooks online are not set up to pull in every Shopify transaction, every Amazon transaction. They're not. The idea is you want that summary information and then you want to make sure that your cost of goods sold aligns with the income. So you have to have a consistent process. For Amazon, we upload costs into A2X and it'll post cost of goods sold so the same orders that were in your income even if the settlement statement splits over the end of the month all get posted in the appropriate month, and then you can do the same thing for Shopify. And then for our clients that are on cloud inventory, you can run as long as the tools provide in our focus, which would be cost of goods sold per channel so you can see your profitability per channel on the financials is really the piece you want to make sure that you can get that number, be able to validate it, and everyone's like, oh, that's this big accounting thing. I'm like no your whole world is operations; its purchasing product and shipping product out. Everybody will know we did 422 orders last month and they'll go, okay, and there's all the data for it and that needs to get applied to the accounting and then you need somebody who can do that properly. Mark: You said something just a little bit ago here which I find; it tends to be a mindset shift among a lot of sellers and that is your inventory is just cash in a different form that you hope to turn into more cash. And this is where the switch from cash to accrual changes and people that are on cash basis tend not to see this, right? They see their business bleeding cash and they see a cash in, cash out and when they spend all the money on inventory, they see that as losing value but it's not. You're just transitioning one asset cash into another asset inventory. And I think this is, again, why this topic of discussing books excites me because it causes you to think of your business in a different way; in completely different ways, as a blend of assets. Most of what you said, I already know our listeners are going to listen to this and be like that is way too complex for me to go through and do. Can I connect these things directly? Can I just plug and go or do I need to hire somebody to do this? Can I train somebody to do this? I mean, how do you actually go about implementing this? Scott: So there isn't one tool that will connect all the different pieces. Now Xero and QuickBooks online and A2X for an Amazon-only business gets you a long way along the method because if you're all FBA A2X will get you most of the way there. But for anything else, there's no secret process. So someone's like, oh, I'll just use what Logility and use their reports, they connect everything. I just did a deep dive review of them again and we couldn't figure out how they were posting the data and then we couldn't rec because we were evaluating we were trying to implement it. So you have to have a consistent set of processes to know you're doing your accounting on a daily, weekly, monthly basis. We do cost of goods sold monthly. So it's an hour or two per client per month because we have a standardized process that we follow through that shakes out vendor deposits and the other details. So the first process is what are you doing, what are you trying to accomplish, and just break that down, whether you're doing it yourself. Look at resources. We have some online courses. We have a bunch of YouTube videos to make sure we educate people. But then we still have a manual process for Walmart and eBay and Etsy and House and Wayfair and all these other channels where we download the data monthly, pivot it to post the income, and reconcile it. But we use the exact same data to apply a cost to post COGS. So it's a matter of that. Now, there are consultants out there that will help you set up the cloud inventory tool which we don't do, or you can work with the vendors to implement it and then you either have to manage it yourself or hire someone like Catching Clouds or another e-commerce accountant that understands the technology, the e-commerce space, and accounting. Mark: I think this is why it's so tough for so many people. Because as an entrepreneur, I have an idea, I've invented a product or I've identified a niche I want to go after and I'm good at that but now you're asking me to understand my financial reports. And then on top of that, you're asking me not to just understand my financial reports, but to understand the technological ecosystem around these financial reports to make them all work without hiring somebody who's going to cost me $10,000, $20,000, $30,000 a month just to be able to do this and suck up any profits that I do if I do have. That's why it is so difficult for people. The whole ecosystem is complex and difficult to understand. But I do know once you do get it set up, it is just a few hours a month. So you put in the effort of what am I selling, what are my processes, and then how can I get this into the system the right way? Once you get that setup, then maintaining it isn't as difficult as the initial setup. Is that fair? Scott: That is correct. Once you get those processes in place and you've got a defined process, you're just not assuming you can set automation and set and forget it, you're there. And then I would put the same due diligence that everybody puts into outsourcing; I mean, e-commerce sellers, the big things they outsource, except for the few that decide to buy a warehouse and want to invest in property and that's important to them being an entrepreneur and that's part of the journey. But that's, in my opinion, a very small percentage of the sellers, everybody else is working with 3PL warehouses or FDA or Walmart fulfillment service, Shopify fulfillment network. The same due diligence that anybody puts into that and understanding their supply chain or their vendors or who they're purchasing from, you just need to decide the financials are a priority for that order and then go through the same due diligence where you know nothing as an entrepreneur about whatever and then you start. But it is absolutely possible to put these systems in place or outsource the work like most sellers outsource and one thing I recommend every seller do is outsource sales tax. Don't try to use a tool like TaxJar or Taxify or Avalara. Just hire assault consultant or have someone like Catching Clouds, which we do it only with our accounting services because it's so complex. We're filing over 5,000 returns a year and even if you do everything right, the states generate notices and you have to deal with all of that. And the same thing applies to outsourcing your 3PL and your fulfillment. And then I would recommend outsourcing your accounting and finance because unless you're 30, 40, 50 million, it's really expensive to hire a bunch of accountants and manage them and train them and make sure they stay on top of the technology and all that other stuff. Mark: You know this is the sort of field that if you fall behind, is that much more work to get caught up. And I know we've referred some business over to you in the past that need some cleanup. We refer them to other partners as well that need clean up. What does that process look like? I'm saying, okay, I've fallen behind, I've been doing cash basis accounting for the past forever and now I want to go back three years to do this right and get moving forward. What sort of workload are you typically looking at to be able to get that caught up? Scott: Yeah. So in general, unless they were using A2X and it's very, very rare or they were doing things right or in a lot of cases it's interesting if the owners are involved, they don't know all the things in accounting and what they do they're very particular about so they do less wrong. Invariably when we see other accountants that don't work with any other e-commerce businesses, they're just making it up as they go and they make it worse and worse. 80%, 90% of the time we have to start over with a brand new Xero file even if somebody is on Xero because there's just tens of thousands of bad records in there and you can't get to it. So we set up a new Xero file. You import all the bank and credit card transactions for that time period. You categorize them and you reconcile all those accounts. Then you post all the income and then you go through accounts payable through all that time. And of course, once you just identify the data and even if they have another system, we can rip all that out, put it back in, but then make sure that no, no, this invoice was paid this month, but it was from the prior month to make sure that the bills are in the right period to get all that going. And you just do those accrual things and then we can post the income per month historically and then do the cost of goods sold per month. And so if it's 12 months or; and so we have to go back to either 1120 or 1119 to the prior tax return or back to the beginning of the business and run that and that's what it's going to take. We have looked at; we are Xero expert experts. My co-founder, partner, and wife Patti teach Xero experts how to do cool expert things in Xero and we have all these tricks to clean up the accounting. And I've got a whole list of things that I want Xero to do to allow us to make it so we can just take what's already in Xero and clean it up because the bank feeds and the fundamentals for Xero are great it's just when you connect all these apps and push in data, you end up with whatever. So it's really a process for us. It's about four to six weeks for one to maybe a little bit longer but it takes time. It takes time to set up the systems. It takes time to pull in the data. It takes time to get through it all and redo it and then validate things with the client go away. Hey, I bought a forklift. That was in inventory. I don't sell forklifts. You go, oh okay that doesn't go in inventory. We'll move it over to a fixed asset and off you go to the races. But it just takes a fair amount of work to understand to pull in all the data and do it. But for the most part, you just start with a new accounting file, get all your data; bank, credit card, bills, income, and COGS, and repost it following the accrual method. Mark: Yeah, I get that. I've been there. I've had to do that before. And you're right, going back when you have thousands of transactions can be a nightmare. I want to know where's the balance between good enough and probably not good enough and too much. And here's what I want to bring up to you, there's a well-known accounting company, which I will not name names, that has a cloud-based service that I know does cash basis and then at the end of the year does an inventory adjustment so basically giving you a full yearly accrual basis. And I've seen these financials before where all of a sudden December looks like the worst month ever because they're doing this massive adjustment at the end of the year. So that's one extreme and for a lot of owners, they'll say, well, it's good enough, I'm getting some high-level understanding of my sales and maybe my some cost, but not COGS. That's one and I would say that's not good enough but that is the attitude. On the other end, you and I have talked before about entering sales down to the individual sale, and being that's ridiculous you don't need to go to that level of detail. What is the balancing point from a controller standpoint being able to look at financials and be able to understand these books and be able to get both those kind of big picture decisions made, but also those granular decisions of look you're over overspending here. This is not a profitable product line or you need to stop ramping up your expenses in this area. What's that balancing point for you guys? Scott: So, yeah, there are a lot of people that really look at their financials and that other method is good enough for a tax return. It's not good enough to make those decisions to understand what's in your business. And it's just making sure that you're doing all of the accounting, not everything, right which means every bank. And the most common things we see when we review books is that they're not reconciling every bank account and credit card every month. Because if you think your system; you downloaded whatever data and you think you have $50,000 in the bank and the bank thinks you have 10, they win unless you've caught the error and fixed it. And it's typically just a data error so if you're not looking at the end of the month settlement for every bank account, credit card, and merchant account to say, hey, this is where we have clients were like, you had $30,000 disappear. Oh, it's a reserve. PayPal's got a reserve or Strike has a reserve which has been happening a lot recently. So we want to have those triggers but you want to make sure you're doing those reconciliations so that you know about all of those expenses and all the things flowing through your credit cards. The other thing is make sure every account's on there. If you're using a personal credit card from the owner because you don't have an Amex, Plum, or whatever in your business, and as long as it's dedicated to that business, it should be on the books. You should be tracking those expenses and then it's just do; and then you pay it off and it's just payments to the owner and it all works out from an accounting perspective. And then, like we said, you just want to make sure you're posting the income in a summary fashion and you could just decide to do it all monthly and know that I'm going to take four hours a month, I'm going to post the income and figure out COGS and get that done and it's good enough and if there's any adjustments. And then the last thing is you have to make sure that the balance sheet balances, which means all the numbers and the liabilities and assets. If the balance sheet doesn't balance you can't trust the P&L. You can't trust your statement of cash flows. And so it's kind of a do those core things and then go make sure you have somebody; an external party that's reviewing what you're doing at least monthly or quarterly to say, yeah, this is right or no, you have this write off or hey, you have this big hundred thousand dollar adjustment leach let's go see if we can figure out what's going on in there. Mark: It sounds like there's two steps here, right? There's the validation of your financials, but there's also an understanding or review of those financials. And maybe they're kind of linked together in the same thing where when things don't add up right that's a sign that you need to be digging deeper into something. Maybe you have an inventory leakage or you're leaking money because not all the inventory has been shipped or accounted for. And you would recommend that on a monthly basis then? Scott: Yeah, at a minimum, it's hard to do. We try to do as much of the accounting daily as possible. We believe that to stay on top of a dynamic e-commerce business, you have to be pulling in the bank feeds from yesterday today. You need to be looking at accounts payable and bills you know oh, I did a $30,000 prepayment on a $100,000 purchase order and I owe $70,000 in six weeks when it ships. Like if you're not paying attention to those things on a daily basis, then the owners are constantly pulling money out when they have to pay bills out of the business; their personal bills, and then the next week loaning the same amount of money or more back into the business and you just go do this swing if you're not staying on top of it. But if you're smaller and you're ramping up and everything else, at least do it monthly and then start doing a little bit more weekly. There is more automation that's coming over time around bank feeds and AI and other stuff, but it's going to take a while to get here. Mark: You know, one of the things that I think can really help once they start getting the stuff together is the ability to forecast. And I'm not talking about even on the sales side, that's kind of the second level of forecasting. But on the expense side, because you just brought it up right now, right? You have a bill of $70,000 that's going to come due. Have you planned for that or is that something that's gotten lost with all the craziness of the rest of your business? Or you want to launch a new product line what do your expenses look like over the next three, four, or five months? You can't do that if you aren't living to some extent in your financials on a fairly regular basis where you understand what's coming up. Do you guys get into much of forecasting even on the expense side? Scott: Not long term forecasting, but cash is king and cash flow projections. So we're just refining our process. So we have some clients that we'll do it for a daily for a short time when they've got lots going on at a specific time frame. And then we'll just provide kind of a weekly cash flow that's always that four to six-week view; here's where payroll comes out, here's your expected income, here's what the Amazon payments come in if you're not using Payability or something that lets you cash out every day so you can manage cash flow but it's really all about that. And we just haven't chosen to extend it for a longer period of time because our focus is daily, weekly, monthly but the idea is that the owner should take a step back and look and say, oh, because what we're trying to always get to is to say, here's how much free cash flow you have to buy inventory, pay for marketing, invest in the business, new products, new design, new people, whatever and then hopefully there's something left over for the owner as well. Unless you're in that I'm continually investing that's great but you need to know how much that is so you're not constantly doing. And that cash flow and that availability can include you have a $100,000 Amex plan card. That's just capital to you because most e-commerce sellers love racking up points and that's not debt. That's not a long term loan. They're going to pay that Amex bill probably every two or three times a week to keep the balance down so they can keep buying product to keep up with demand. But you need to know where those numbers are, where are those thresholds? When you're starting to push out against them if you're growing and your sales are growing, which is what's been happening for a ton of sellers in this big new world that we're in where everyone's home and everyone's buying online and that's all ramped up you need to know when you're hitting those limits and that you either need to invest more money as the owner because you're going to turn that cash into more profit; into more cash. Or you're looking at different lines of credit whether it's with a bank, which is usually the most painful way. But there are other alternative ways that aren't quite online loan shark and you find the balance between those to post that in. But it's really cash is king. If you're not looking at it; there's so many businesses that are profitable on paper, profitable on their P&L that go out of business because they didn't manage their cash. Mark: They didn't manage their cash or the cost. And you said costs are king what do you mean by that? Scott: Cash is king. Mark: Cash is king. Scott: Well, actually, costs are pretty important. If you don't have a good handle on your costs, you're going to run into the situation where you don't know what the value of your inventory is. And the most important thing is you don't know how to price your product. So if you have a product that you buy in the US and you buy in huge volumes and that your suppliers don't charge you shipping, you can use your buy cost. It's pretty straightforward. But if you're buying a product, either whether it's being manufactured or shipped internationally and it costs you a dollar per unit, but it costs you nine dollars to get it live in Amazon FDA or your warehouse, you need to know your cost is $10 is your landed cost after shipping and customs and insurance and even inbound into Amazon. So you know your all up cost to know what that is. And if you don't have a good handle on one of the first things we do with just about every client is revalidate their costs, identify the ones that are wrong, and then look at what they're selling it for. And they think they're averaging some margin and it's usually a lot less because they're not aware of their full cost for their product. And that's understanding that landed cost and landed cost is a key accrual process where you pay for everything and then you take that shipping and it gets added to inventory and then as you sell, it comes out and it's value. And that can make a huge difference on client's business. We have clients that are close and they're using landed cost, but they're not doing that last accounting bit monthly to do a journal entry to take hey, I spent as much on cost, customs, tariffs, whatever, and moving that all into the inventory account. And then you go, oh, I really have spent two million dollars on inventory and shipping and everything else, and I'm pulling out 200,000 a month in cost of goods sold. I have not just the number of quantity of units, but you can see the money flowing in and out of your business. Mark: Why don't we have you on monthly to the podcast? I don't know I feel like we just scratched like the first quarter of what you put together as far as the list of things we can talk about. But we are up against the half an hour, so I am going to cut it here and ask the best way to reach you; obviously CatchingClouds.net. You guys have courses available. Is that on Catching Clouds? Scott: Yeah. So if you go to our site, we have a contact form if you want to talk to me, especially if you're a larger business, I'm happy to talk or email and interact with anybody. I just enjoy interacting with sellers. Then we have our YouTube channel, which we have over a hundred YouTube videos, and we'll start adding more next month on basic topics. Now it's all my wife mostly who can explain things better and doesn't talk as fast as I do, but we're really there. And we have so much more that we want to push out onto those YouTube videos because we're happy to share the basics; how to read financials, and all these different things. We just want to help those sellers that are smaller than a million and or do it yourself. And then we also have a Facebook group that supports that for sellers and accountants for providing answers and questions for people that take our courses and just have general questions and then we have our outsourced service. So if you go to our contact form, reach out and I'm happy to interact and have a conversation. And most of my focus is really where your biggest challenge is and if I can help them figure out the top two or three cloud inventory tools that would be there or a developer that would do automation and build zappy integration to improve their efficiency or point them in the right direction, I'm happy to do that. And then our big services, we'll just take it all over, clean it all up, and then run it. Mark: Yeah, I think for those that are listening here, especially those that may not be in that one to fifty million dollar revenue range, the one thing I can say just from my experience is the companies that get there have books in order for the most part, much more so than smaller companies. And part of the reason that they've gotten there is because they have taken the time to put together good books. And it does give you insights into the business that you can't get otherwise. That doesn't mean that we haven't seen companies in the one to 50 million dollar range that don't have their books together. But all the more reason for those companies to make sure you're are doing this because if you aren't, I can almost guarantee you're bleeding cash somewhere and you're lacking optimization somewhere. I think the biggest thing; let's end with this cut, people are overwhelmed by this, they may be not sure how to start. What's one thing that they can do today? If they think that they're under optimized with their books right now, what's one thing that you would suggest that they do today? Scott: I mean, it really usually just comes down to education. So whether it's our YouTube videos or books like Financial Intelligence for Entrepreneurs is a good book. It's looking at that and then our big thing is process. So if you're not documenting your process for receiving inventory and dealing with returns, just take a whiteboard and put it on your wall and start building those things. So it's called the combination of education and then it's just organization so you can keep track of your to-do list and you know, oh, I've got to block out this much time every day or week or month for accounting. It's more about that discipline and then just get an accountability coach. There are other things you can do, like profit first for a different way to look at profit. Or you can hire someone for EOS entrepreneurial operating system and the traction books. So there are actual structured processes that you can join in where it's not just you have to determine it ahead of time, but it's kind of education. Have coach as partners, whether that's Quiet Light who gives out I know great advice. Even when they're talking to people two or three years from when they're selling and they may never sell to say, no, these are the smart things to do because everything they're telling you to do smart to sell your business is the same guidance to run your business profitably. And then get those external resources, find your peers out there and talk to them and share best practices, and just continue to evolve as an entrepreneur. Mark: Scott, it's really good to see you again. Thanks so much for coming on. Scott: You're welcome. Thank you. Resources: Catching Clouds Catching Clouds Contact Form Catching Clouds YouTube Channel Catching Clouds Facebook Page Quiet Light Podcast@quietlightbrokerage.com

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Maria Luna - CEO of BRAVO Pay

Play Episode Listen Later Jul 15, 2020 47:08

I sat down with CEO Maria Luna from BRAVO Tip or Pay soon to be BRAVO Pay. We finally reconnected after meeting each other in 2016 when she was very kind and supported a venture I was working on here in Phoenix, AZ. The BRAVO app falls in the payment technologies category and is available as both an iPhone and Android app. Initially, the app was created for hard working people and creatives to get tipped for their services and it has now grown into a payment powerhouse. The new version adds so many more features including social media, social connection, fan pages, store fronts and has literally morphed into an all-inclusive app for anyone who works for themselves or has the ability to make money on their directly with their clients and followers. Unlike the competitors who share your information inside their apps like your name, email, phone # and have deep marketing pockets and charge large fees, BRAVO stands out as caring for all who work hard and deliver great service without giving up your identity and taking money out of your pockets with unfair fees. Maria is so sincere and you can tell that her goal is uplifting everyone and that sole purpose is more important to her than making a single dime. I hope you enjoy our conversation and more importantly, I hope you download the BRAVO app and start using it for all your payments, tipping and social interactions when it comes to promoting your goods and services. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIY2hkhIiZs Maria Luna: BRAVO Pay: https://trybravo.com/ Connect with Maria: LinkedIn Personal: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mlunaceobravopay/ LinkedIn Business: https://www.linkedin.com/company/trybravopay/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqzMQ63Znk4H4wKwO496F9A Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/bravopay Instagram: https://www.instagrm.com/bravo_pay Twitter: https://twitter.com/Bravo ********** Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass ********** If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#thejoecostelloshow Subscribe, Rate & Review:I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#thejoecostelloshow Follow Joe: Twitter: https://twitter.com/jcostelloglobal Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jcostelloglobal/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jcostelloglobal/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUZsrJsf8-1dS6ddAa9Sr1Q?view_as=subscriber Transcript Maria Luna: Joe: Hey, everybody, welcome. I'm excited for my guest today. I have Maria Luna from Bravo. She is going to explain the app and everything about it. Maria and I met, I think, back in twenty sixteen, and I haven't talked to her in quite some time, but they have definitely done a ton of stuff since then. And we're going to get into all that. I'm not going to spoil it. But Maria, welcome and thank you so much for being here. Maria: Thank you. The pleasure is all mine. Joe: There's plenty of interviews with your history and all of your growing up stories about your mother, how she made money and how this is so dear to your heart. The concept of what you built and then your own education, a bachelor's degree, masters degree. So there's plenty of places people can see all that. I really. For me. I love the app so much. And you were so gracious to be a part of my life in 2016. We had opened up a small performance school. And I really want to use this time mostly to get the word out about Bravo and allow you to explain where you've come from and where it's going. I know that there's a new iteration of it since 2016. I didn't even notice in 2016 or actually I didn't even know if this had happened since then. But we're going to talk about Shark Tank, which is cool. I don't know how much you can talk about it, but so you can just say, I can't talk about that. But I just I have some questions about all of that. But again, let's let's start with just the basic concept of what the app does and then we'll get into I know all these other questions will come up. Maria: Awesome, we'll thank you for the opportunity. So with an honor and a pleasure, whenever I invited to speak about our company, it's it's really a team effort. Unfortunately, I'm the majority of the cases on the face of the company, but there's so many amazing people in the team. I want to recognize their work and I'll be happy to answer anything about Bravo and our history and where we're going. More than anything. Joe: Great. Well, again, I think the best place to start is I think there's everyone's going to have some initial confusion when they hear about the app and they then go. But what about and I'm not going to mention any of the other apps that are on that same sort of platform or potentially do somewhat of the same thing, because I know there's a very distinct difference with Bravo. So I need you to explain what Bravo brings to the table where it's different than the the other apps air quotes Maria: Well. Joe: That are happening or what other people might use. Maria: Ok. More than happy. So starting with our journey and our purpose. When we started Bravo, the main purpose is to financially empower anybody that depends on cash payments, tips or content creators and freelancers to make a living. And you say, well, there's many ways of doing that. Yes. But what we bring different to the table. Number one, with Bravo, you your data is not the product. So we do not monetize on our users data. And that has massive implications in your security and the security of your data. And the money. So starting with that, we are super different based on how private, how protective and secure we are for our users. But beyond that, and the purpose to financially empower that takes me to the next version of Bravo. We create first a minimum viable product. And then a beta where we wanted to prove, OK. There is this perfect way. We're two perfect strangers can meet each other, page other and not exchange a single point of data. And that was to take Bravo to the market and prove that there was a need for a super private way for two strangers to connect each other and continue with their lives while taking bravo to the market. And we have listened unlocked to our users and we started to see a lot of verticals popping up beyond the typical tipping situation where you're tipping your valet or anybody that gives you great service. And then we started to see a lot of increase use age in musicians. Broadcasters can benefit from brow. We're seeing some very important podcasts and podcasters using Bravo. Maria: Any type of freelancers, photographers, yoga instructors, trainers. And then we listen to their pain points. And what are those pain points? OK. Whenever they go and put their content out to monetize, to to make a living. All of the platforms out there start either taking a lot from certain income. So they're costly to use their platforms and they start having tiers that make it super complicated. So, for example, if I have ten thousand users, I have access to these tools. But if I don't, I, I do not make the money or I depend on ads. And then they start hiding your content so that you have to pay to be visible and will listen to all of those pain points. And then we did focus groups. We tested things. We went back to them and we made sure that all of the tools to monetize combining that social aspect of it. Let me bring your my content out and let me be financially empowered by my fans or my supporters are in one platform and in a fair price, not hiding anybody's content. So you work hard for your followers or your supporters. I'm not going to hide your content. I'm going to provide those tools and democratize the tools. Why do you need to wait until your super big to have access to to the tools? And that's what we're bringing to the market in our next item nation, which is a perfect combination of sharing who you are monetizing directly from your fan base and providing a store item where you can sell pretty much anything. Joe: Yeah, that's really cool. And along with this new version, is that part of the name change that I saw or did that happen a while ago? Maria: Well, as a company, we because we went very focus on one side of the market. One one niche inside the market, which was tipping. Joe: Mm hmm. Maria: We first position bravo there because we knew that there is a pawn. Right. Tipping was the tip of the iceberg. So we knew that the first thing we could solve right away was that interaction of two strangers. But the vision is way bigger. And it was to eventually become this platform that around the world, anybody can be financially empowered directly from somebody that wants to either pay them for one time. And now we're adding recurring revenue. And we're also opening tools so that you can have your own store inside Bravo, if you will, to to sell anything like experiences. One use case would be I'm a musician and I'm going to say on this concert, I am going to open 10 spaces for people to buy a backstage experience and they can go and buy it on Bravo presented and have their picture taken with their favorite artist. Things like that. So the sky's the limit. Your imagination is the limit. Joe: Right. So is it now called Bravo Pay? Is that official, the Maria: We Joe: Official? Maria: Are evolving now. The Joe: Ok. Maria: Name to the final purpose, which is way bigger than just sending Joe: Tipping. Maria: One time gratuity. So we're evolving the name to Bravo pay. Joe: Awesome. OK, so can I give you some scenarios so that I again, I want this to be I think the marketplace in the sort of pay apps is a little clouded. Or people get used to something and it's a habit forming type thing and they don't they don't want to change and they might not understand that they might be paying fees that they don't need to pay or they're sharing information that they don't need. That's probably the most important thing that Bravo brings to the table unless I've missed something. But that's the thing that I keep hearing, is that it's an anonymous exchange of money, in a sense. Maria: On this version, on our next restoration, on top of that, which is great for your safety and security, what we're adding is that intersection of of social finance of you happen, that direct support from your customer and and your fan base and expanding the tools, democratizing the tools that in any other platform are costly or dependent ads, or they hide your content so that you have to then pay more. Joe: Great. So, again, for clarity, I want to. I want to say that before the new version comes out, though, the huge part of Bravo was not having to exchange any personal information in order for someone to pay you or for you to get paid. Is that correct? Maria: Correct. The security Joe: Ok. Maria: Of being a total. Joe: Right. And so now the new version is you're stacking on the social layer that has been missing because it's just basically was a tipping paying app. But now you're adding in. If you have Bravo, you have all you're capturing all the social tribe that follows you. You're allowed to interact with them. So you're adding other layers that could be more helpful to everybody, but definitely artistic types and creatives for sure. Maria: Correct. And let let me paint the picture for different use cases. Let's Joe: Ok. Maria: Say I'm a yoga instructor and I am on the app and now my my students can not only premium Bravo, but then I can offer it experiences to them through the app that I can sell in my store. So I create a store item for everything that I am going to offer. And like a super private class or an advanced class or anything that I want to offer, I can do it inside the app. I can also grow my my user base or my followers by sharing what I do on the app so I can then also put videos and pictures and content that can be featured on the app and can be also shared to anyone that it's on the app. So we're doing that intersection of social content and payments. Joe: Wow. So it's not just social connection and payments. It's actually you're allowing content. And are you allowing. Are you saying you're allowing even like a store front situation? Maria: Yes, you can create a store on the only thing it's like because of the different regulations of the different platforms, the store items have to be for something physical or something that is not an app purchase. So I can buy things like I like I mentioned the experience of a backstage meeting or I can buy a special class, something that it's not digital. I can buy it on the app, merch, a t shirt, anything that I want to create on a store item for. Joe: That's great. That's really. So it's really come like much different than what I knew. Maria: Oh, yes. The division, it's big and again, because the purpose is to financially empower everyone on all of these tools are offered in a very democratized way. If you use the recurring tools or the additional tools to monetize, Brummell will keep a five percent, but you keep a ninety five percent of the income. And for the gratuity payments, you keep a hundred percent of. Joe: Right, sorry, member. The the actual formula is it's a two percent fee going to the person that's actually making the payment. Right. So it's a Maria: Which which is another differentiator, because Joe: Right. Maria: Let's say if you're going to make a payment with other platforms, you in order for that transaction to be free, and then when I say, quote unquote, free, it's because you are the product most of the time. But let's say if you're going to pay with those platforms, you can only pay with a debit card or retrieving the money directly from your bank account. Bravo allows credit card payments at a two percent fee, which is Joe: Yeah. Unheard of. Maria: Unheard of in the market. Well, yes. Joe: Yeah, it doesn't happen. And it's funny because the listeners and eventually I take this and I put it on my You Tube channel because some people just don't. I don't want the content to be lost for people who don't listen to podcast. But you and I are both in Arizona. And I first saw Bravo when I would pull up to various restaurants and the valet would have a sign and I would look at it and would say, bravo, you know, tipping and whatever the sign said or used to say or still says, I'm not sure. But again, for the users, I want them to understand that what has to happen is both parties have to have the app on their phone, which is a free app. It's downloadable on either Android or iPhone. Right. And the initial way that the payment occurs is by the Jeep finding that person via G.P.S.. Maria: There's Joe: Right. Maria: Two ways if I am near you. I can you find you by proximity because of the G.P.S. capabilities. But we also have a search tab that I can find you by your username. And that's another way we protect your privacy, because my name is Murray. I will not. But on the app, if bananas is not taken, I can be bananas. So that gives another layer of security. Obviously we're in the payments industry in the back end. We need to know who you are because there are laws and regulations. Joe: Mm hmm. Maria: We need to know our customers there so KYC know your customer regulations. So in the back end, we know who you are, but the person that it's paying you doesn't need to know, you know, your real information if you don't want to. Joe: Right. Maria: Your handle is customizable. Joe: Sure. And I think that, again, money. I don't want to say this in the wrong way. Money is great. But money. Physical money is really dirty. Like Maria: It's Joe: The handle. Maria: 30 Joe: It's nasty. Maria: Now, the call, the make makes us realize they're doing more. Joe: Right. So this is a very cool thing because the timing of it where I now have a fairly sizable booking agency in Arizona. And then we expanded into Colorado last summer. So now we're in two states and we have over 500 forms of entertainment on our roster, everything from literally a instrumental guitarist to synchronize swimmers in a pool all the way up to A-list entertainment. And so for us and our entertainers were in that time right now where they are very you know, they all need to go back to work because that's how they make their living. Most of ours are full time entertainers, but they don't want people coming up to them to necessarily request songs because they get right on top of you there, or sometimes they'll even come up. I've seen people come up and they're right in your ear while you're playing a song you're trying to set. It's just ridiculous. Maria: Yeah. Joe: But on top of it, having people come close to put in a tip and put that money in a tip jar, and then you have to handle all that money later on at the end of the night. So this is a huge way to get rid of that whole they don't have to get out of their seat, that you don't have to handle dirty money. And it's just another great reason why, you know, not only the entertainers should all have the app, but consumers should start to look to put it on their phone and they're going to see more more opportunities pop up where they don't have to go, pat their pockets and go, oh, I don't have any cash. It's just right. It's all done. Maria: Correct. Joe: Yeah. Maria: And that is the general purpose. We want everybody to work hard for their money. That has something to bring to the world. Either service or your art, your talent to be to have a decent way of living. So we want to facilitate that interaction where I can. I see. I love what you do and I just tip you or pay you. But now, on top of a one time gratuity, we're adding the ability for me to subscribe to you as a fan and then on a monthly basis support what you do. So do us a podcast or I can subscribe on a monthly basis, you know, support what you do. But I also we're offering and bringing to the table partnerships like right now. We partnered with so many virtual concerts. There's a group, Facebook, that does a blues night every single night, and they're accepting the tips via Bravo. And a lot of people tell me, you know. What is next? So what is next is all of these tools that we are providing to put even more money on the hands of the creators, the artists and the service workers. And then we are going to be rolling out a marketing campaign state by state, to bring the word out in a disciplined way. I'm very proud to say that we we took problem from a bootstrap organic movement to now a movement that is going not only in the USA, but we're going to expanding to Europe, we're going to expanding to Latin America eventually. So Canada will say so. Yeah, you're going to hear more about us. Joe: Yeah, and I want the listeners to know that I knew you when. Because it's true. It's and and the fact that you and your husband, Hector, the both of you are real people like you've come from understanding that this is a situation where you're you're you're making money at something. But more of it is that you're helping people like it's a very sincere movement. This is not a gouging situation. Maria: Well, I would say it's a team effort, like the idea was conceived in a trip that hit there I was we were we wanted to tip our tour guide. We couldn't we didn't have cash. And that's where the idea was born. It took me back to the days of my mother living Joe: Yeah. Maria: On tips and all of that. And then we wanted to create an easy way for people to connect and pay. And then the vision was eventually this could help not only in the ticketing situations, but people that depend on other people to pay at a distance or take a bigger level. But we wanted to go very disciplined. It was the two of us at the very beginning. Joe: Mm hmm. Maria: I mean, Elmer joined us. Hector is a self-taught coder, although he's a physician. So he did the initial wire frames. Then Elmer joined us as a chief technology officer. And now we have six engineers of of world class quality. Joe: Wow. Maria: We have a team. We have Adam that then joined us in the marketing side and sales side. Travis Kohlberg, that it's he is super young, but probably one of the most creative social content creators in the world that he's working with big names. I can I don't dare to say it because, I mean, I don't know how private these projects are, but as big as it gets and we're so fortunate that he is part of the team as well. So super talented, passionate people. And we started with twenty five users by invitation. I think I knew you a little bit after that. Joe: Sure. Maria: And we have been told everything. We have been told that brand is going to crush you. They have, you know, millions and millions and billions of dollars. And unlike we're driven by a purpose, we're not here to take anybody out of market. We are creating our own opportunities. And the more the merrier, the more tools that people have to make money. And let's all competing. In fairness, I'm not afraid of big money or big pockets because we are driven by that purpose. We created a grass roots with twenty five users now. Now we're over two hundred and fifty thousand people all over USA and growing. And that is because of a true excited people talking to their customers and their fan base. Joe: Yeah, that's great. I'm really happy for you. I want to. Can we talk about the subscription piece of it just Maria: Because. Joe: So that I so that I understand? I want to make sure that the users, both the person getting the money and the person paying, understand that the app is free and they just put in whatever their information and then they can create, like you say, create their handle, which basically makes them somewhat anonymous or hidden. But then you offer a subscription based. Maria: And that it's coming. It's not available to Joe: Ok. Maria: Everyone yet. However, Joe: Ok. Maria: All of our brand ambassadors are testing it and very soon we're going to open it for a number of thousands of people. General public that that one, too, tested. We're going to open it for testing before releasing it to the whole wide world. And then it's a beautiful thing. Now we're allowing people to first check us out. So you don't even need to create an account to see. And that's we are changing also our tag name to explore, pay, earn, because that describes better what you can do on the app. Joe: Mm hmm. Maria: So you can explore different profiles. So you create your profile. I'm going to be able to see your profile even before I decide, OK, I'm going to actually sign up to sign up. You provide very little information, your name, your last name, your email. You enter and you can even enter with your credentials with Facebook twitch, many Apple. We're allowing people just boom. I entered with my own credentials and then you can explore the content, whatever you are offering on the app. Your videos, your pictures, all of that, it's free. I don't need to pay for all that to the content creators. What we allow them to do is create a subscription model. So let's say your diehard fans or customers can then subscribe to support you and you can offer them physical experiences or things or merch or anything that it's not an in app purchase. You can offer them on the app by creating sport items. So more to come. We are going to start releasing little by little. We already started a teaser campaign of what's coming on Joe: Mm hmm. Maria: Social media Bravo page. But we're going to very soon open it for people to test themselves. Joe: Yeah, that's great. So one of the things that I saw was Richard Sherman. Is he a spokesperson for Bravo? Maria: I am so fortunate, again, that we started with so many passionate users, but then they brought Richard Sherman is one of the kindest, nicest human beings ever. And he he shared with me that even though he's very conscientious of the importance of of empowering, financially empowering people, he dedicates time to educate his fellow friends on players, on the importance of finance and good education on your own finances. So he loved the idea and he joined us. He's part of our advisory team to better understand that world of athletes, because that's another thing. You create content. You can be a problem. Not only you have to be on service. I'm an athlete. Think about all of the athletes right now sitting at home waiting to be called to work. And now they can have this opportunity that on the app they share who they are, they share the routines, they can share everything, and then they can have that special connection with their fans. Something else we're adding on. It's the ability to chat with your favorite person, but it's at will. So let's say you can say to my customers, I'm going to chat with them Fridays at 1:00 p.m. and then you can turn it off as well. Joe: Yeah, that's great. And I just before we get away from Richard Sherman, I want to make sure that the listeners, because not everyone's going to know him if they don't watch football. But he's a he's an amazing NFL football player. Maria: With the San Francisco 49ers. Joe: That's it. All right. Maria: Yes, yes, he's a cornerback for Joe: Yeah. Maria: The San Francisco 49ers. Joe: To Maria: And Joe: Try. Maria: But again, beyond the big figure that he is inside of the NFL. He is a way bigger human being. He has his own charity. He's he's an amazing person. Joe: That's great. It's great to hear I was really when I saw that, I was like, wow, this is man, Murray is blowing it up and I just. It's crazy. Maria: Really, it's the whole the whole team and the passion behind it. Joe: Yeah, it's really, really exciting. I'm glad. Oh, so when is the new version? I think you said you're starting to kind of send it out here and there to different Maria: Well, Joe: People. Maria: Right now, all of our brand ambassadors have it in their hands. So they're they're testing it for us. And we gathered all of their feedback to make it even stronger on the next phase. Very soon we're going to release it to their fan base. So they're going to be able to provide a code to their fan base to test it. And we are going to also do a campaign so people can request to test it before we release it to the general public. Joe: And is there a release date? Maria: We're not going to announce it yet because Joe: Ok. Maria: There's many factors, and once you are in technology, you know that there are many factors around the launch. And we wanted to make it again, like everything we have done in a lack of grassroots. So we want to bring both our ambassadors, the ambassadors, Zoom, bowling their fan base. We're going to open it to people that are curious when tested and we want to use their voices. So if I talk to you, I can talk for many hours. But if a friend of yours or somebody you admire tells you this is a secure, perfect way for us to have this connection, then it's a more personalized thing. Joe: So you've mentioned a couple of times about a brand ambassador. Can you explain to me what that is and how someone would find out about it and how to become one? Maria: Well, we call them Jubran Ambassadors, but they're so gracious. They're just people that that love our kirp really much Joe: So Maria: Up. Joe: I can be a brand ambassador. Maria: Yes. You're hired. No. Yes. It's people that are passionate enough to join our movement and we call them Bravo family. And they just they just tested with their with their fan base because ultimately it's a tool to be empowered financially, directly by their supporters in the future as we grow. We will open opportunities for. To be paid to be a brand ambassador. But so far, it's a very grassroots. We have famous people like Madonna's guitarist. This woman want to give money Joe: Yes. Maria: Is one Joe: I saw Monty Maria: Rapper. Joe: And on the Shark Tank episode. Maria: Yes. Joe: Yeah. Maria: And he's still he's like a like a brother. I love him so much. I would have a richer. We have Mike Studd, which is a platinum recording artist, and he also has a podcast called Y and Kay. We have John Kilmer's that does a podcast with him. We have Alice Cooper, Solid Rock. We Joe: Oh, Maria: Have Joe: Awesome. Maria: Lee Jansen that it's a professional golf player. Jarrett under Meehl, which is a band that it's amazing. If you haven't heard your music, find you a band. I can't keep going on and on. There's there's many and comedian Brad Bryant Toffler, so many that I am I will be unfair if I leave somebody out. Joe: Right. Maria: But. Joe: No, I get it, I get it. Yeah. It's so funny. I know for Ruka and I know Jared Jared in the middle. Just because, you know, they're Arizona based, but. Yeah. That's awesome. I have a question that I don't want to forget to ask. How does somebody know that that person has Bravo? And I know that at one point when we know you and I met and in 2016 and we had it, there were stickers and there were signage. And so does that all of that still happen? Is that still available to someone? Maria: We can, but court called it temporarily changed the scene. And Joe: Ok. Maria: I'm very proud to say that the spy, that many restaurants have been affected and we have been partnering with some like Helio Raisin. It's a local restaurant that we partnered with two to help as much as we can. But all of that market dried up very soon. And then we started then to see a lot of growth in the virtual world, like like the blues artist that I mentioned and the musicians and whatnot. So we have been growing despite all of this tragedy. And my heart goes out to everybody that it's suffering from from this cold it. But the main point to be said is that that changed the arena. So now the physical interaction doesn't happen as much, though, paid by proximity. So most of the things are virtual. And the way people let them know was talking about it, like you can find no. Awful. Joe: Ok. Yeah. So if a performer let's so I already have people back at work at a local resort here called the Phoenician. So it would be a matter of them getting into the habit of saying, Maria: You Joe: Hey, Maria: Can remember Joe: You know, Maria: The. Joe: Yeah, just if you like what you hear, please hit me up on Bravo. Just something simple like that. Yeah, Maria: Now Joe: Well, that's Maria: It Joe: Great. Maria: Is, but I guess I can mention it is a movement. And normally the person that it's the receiving side has the power to to to bring the message to the people. They. Joe: Yeah, yeah, and it's funny because you mentioned the virtual stuff. And obviously I have a lot of entertainers locally in town that I know that I see up on any of the various platforms doing their live sessions with the hope of making any amount of tips whatsoever to just keep their head above water. So it more than ever, it's important to a have an app like Bravo to be able to receive those tips. And the fact that you're not gouging them with these huge fees. And so everything that a fan or a customer pays, they have it all goes to them. And it's just it's a great thing. So I just I can't stress it enough because I just think that you're in a different realm and I know that you're sincere and it's very much comes from the heart, which is in the business world. That's a hard mixture of having a heart and still wanting to be successful. Maria: I Joe: But. Maria: Don't know what they have to fight, like Joe: I. Maria: Henry Ford said once, a business that only makes money, it's a poor business. And I totally live by that. Joe: Yeah. Maria: You can. I have to be responsible with my stakeholders. And obviously, we're adding now more ways to monetize forever. The receiving side gets the one time gratuities for free and then the recurring revenue because we need to provide other tools. They keep running five percent. But beyond making money, why not be that responsible partner in society where everybody is uplifted with you? That that's Joe: Yeah, Maria: What actually. Joe: Yeah. And you are that person, so thank you for that. I appreciate it for sure. OK, so Maria: But Joe: Now. Maria: Now you're hired as an ambassador Joe: Ok. Maria: To Joe: All right. I'm holding Maria: The. Joe: You to it. All right. So I want to talk about Shark Tank because Maria: Of course. Joe: I didn't know it totally caught me by surprise. And I'm a huge shark tank fan. I follow all of them on social media. I comment all the time on a lot of stuff, on Laurie Laurie stuff and on Damon's stuff. They seem to really be up there a lot. Those are the two that I and you know, the likes. I mean, I don't know if it's them in the background doing it, but it seems sincere, like they they seem like they might be the ones answering the comments or are liking them or not. But who knows. But I have the date of November 5th. Twenty seventeen. Is that correct? Maria: That's correct. Joe: Ok. And I understand the way it happened was you had won a tech award at some other. Maria: Right through San Francisco, Joe: What was it again? Maria: Techcrunch Disrupt in San Francisco, the audience speak. Bravo was their favorite startup. Joe: Yeah. And so from there, my understanding was one of the producers from Shark Tank saw that, heard heard about it, whatever, and invited you on. Maria: Yes, they invited us to to to start the process. But after that, you just like anybody else, so you don't have any special privilege. You still have to submit your versions and everything. And then you go through a very lengthy process all the way until they select the final people presenting. And we were in that group. It was a great experience. And they're they're good people. They're fun. They're they're they're good human beings. Joe: So when you say a lengthy process, what what is that? Maria: I mean, I cannot share because I would I have a confidentiality Joe: Yep, Maria: Agreement, I can there's things that I can not share. Joe: Yep. Maria: But let me. It is not that you just submitted one audition and you're in. That's as much as I can say there. It's a process. Joe: Sure. Maria: It's an Joe: Ok. Maria: Ongoing process where they filter different. The offers are are real. All the conversations are real. And like in any business situation after the show, then there's the conversation continues. Joe: Yes. Maria: And then some companies move on with the offers and some companies are not necessarily depending on on additional discussions. Joe: Mm hmm. Maria: But I have to say they were very fair throughout the process. Everybody makes their own decisions based on what is best for the future. Joe: So Laurie said, and I quote. You were Maria: Lori. Joe: Here. You were one of the most impressive people she has ever seen on the carpet. Maria: She was very generous to say that. And I have to say this about her. I always say that whenever you say something good about a person or bad. Unfortunately. But I tend not to say or try not to say anything bad about anybody. But whenever somebody says something good is because they see that doubting themselves. And Laurita is a good person. So she is all about women empowerment. And I think she was super kind and generous of saying that. And I thank her for that. Joe: How nervous were you? Maria: I have to say the truth at the moment that you're pitching, there's this all adrenaline that it's in you that you're going to an automatic mode. And I'm the kind of person that I don't take no for an answer easily at least. Oh, I went there to bring it before that. I was extremely nervous, like any other human being, because there's many things. I mean, obviously, I saw other chapters where they pretty much crush the Joe: Right. Maria: Spinners. But my team and this is we're having a great team behind you. It's so important. Heck, they're out on Karoline, everybody. My team kept me focused on one thing. The people that do poorly on the show, it's because they don't know their business for a reason or they don't prepare well. But we built this from the ground up. I deal with the finances when the accounting, everything. So from day one. So I knew the numbers. I knew my stuff. And I knew my purpose and the purpose of everybody in the team. So that that took care of of the, you know, having the confidence. I mean, in life, what what can happen is not going to kill you. It's going to make you stronger if it goes by. Joe: It's a. Maria: Fortunately, when. Well, and it opened great doors for us. Joe: I have to tell you, I could be an amazing entrepreneur. I think if I only had the financial side of things together and I think that's probably my biggest downfall. And I'm trying. It's just so hard for me. But the fact that, like everyone that goes on Shark Tank, you go in with. We want this amount of money for this percentage of the company or whatever type of deal. But Muzi, it's that, right? It's we want X for X and you after the end. So the first thing happened is Barbara sort of interrupted you as you were about to explain some stuff and just said, I'm out. Whatever she said it was. And then Kevin thought the space was complicated. So he was out. Alex very cordial. He was just like, if it's not on the back of a napkin, I can't understand that. But me, the back of an envelope, I forget. Maria: Oh, my God. Do you remember it better than I Joe: Yeah, Maria: Do? Joe: Well, I just I had to watch it because I wanted to make sure that I really understood what happened. And then I could see Lori and Mark whispering and ultimately they made you the offer. But the thing that impressed me the most was you were so calm. And when they gave you the offer, it wasn't even like you turned to Hector and did one of those Pylos that everyone doesn't share. You were like you knew the numbers so well that you knew what you could give up and what you couldn't give up. And you counter offered, like, so quickly and so precisely. Damn, I want to know how to do that. Maria: Well, I think it's, um, it's a combination of you have other people that that were with us, friends and family that believed in us and invested also in the company. So you have to have them also in mind and have a bare minimum that will bring value to the people that believed in your first. Right. So that that was part of it. And. And having a, you know, a plan for what was acceptable and what wasn't. Joe: Yeah, it was amazing. I was just like, wow, I would have crumbled when when Barbara first Centera, I would have been like, oh, it threw me off and I would have just been all over the place. But you were just right right there. I say, go, go, Maria. It's like. Maria: They're very gracious. It's just like, oh, well, obviously it's a show, so they baby to make it super endearing, like there were places where I saw policies and I'm like, they make it, you know, super exciting. And that's that's why they're successful. They're they're very good at anything. Joe: Yeah, it was great. OK. So let me recap. So what is the Web site for the app Maria: Look, Joe: At? Maria: You can go to try. Bravo dot com right now, because we started this campaign, you're going to see a video. Is an upgraded experience coming soon? But I tried Bravo dot com. If they want to contact us, they can write to support. I try like when you try something new. I try bravo dot com support. I tried Robillard. Com and and contact us. And also we're very responsive on Instagram. Well you can find us. That's Bromwell underscore pay. And Facebook and Twitter. Joe: Yeah, and I'll. Maria: We're on TCW. Joe: Perfect. So and I'll go and put all the links in the show notes so that it'll be easily accessible by everyone. So again, to make it super, super clear for everyone so they don't go and go. What about. I hate to use this to use that word again. The selling point for Bravo is that it's a very safe, secure, practically or basically anonymous way to pay and accept money from from anyone. So. Maria: Yes. And then in all of those payment applications, which Bravo, that's a small part of Bravo were more than just payments. But those payment applications are are designed for friends and family to pay each other because you need to trust the person. If if I don't trust you, I better not receive the money because once I pay or I it's it's a done deal. And then. But with Bravo, more robust way to pay a stranger, for starters. But then the next version of Bravo, which is super robust, where you can share who you are. Share your content directly. Contact your fan base or your fan base. Contact you and then offer exclusive experiences or merch on the same. Joe: It's really exciting. I am, Maria: The majority of the money, it's a recurring Joe: Yes. Maria: And keep a hundred percent if it's a one time thing. Joe: That's a big, big plus. So I'm really excited for you and Hector and the whole team. I feel like we're family because we go back so far. And I felt like it was the beginning. Even though I know you start I think it was 2014 was the inception of. Maria: Well, we've we formed the company in 2014, but our minimum viable product. We brought it to the market in 2015. Joe: So a year later, I met you. So and here we are, 20, 20. And you guys are just crushing it. And I'm really happy for you. Maria: Thank you. Thank Joe: So Maria: You. Joe: I'll put in all the links in the show notes. And this way everyone can find you and reach out and I'll make sure this gets on all the various platforms that I push this out to. I'm almost at 5000 friends on my Facebook. Me musician page. So they will see this and hopefully we can convert them over and have them start using Bravo. And keep. Maria: Let them join Joe: Yeah. Maria: The movement. Joe: Let them join the movement. I love it. Well, I can't thank you enough for your time. I know you're super busy, but stay healthy. Much success to you. I'm really excited for you both. And the team. Maria: Thank you. Let's continue the conversation. I don't want to lose contact with you. Joe: I know it's been too long. Right. Maria: Yes. Yes. Joe: All right. Maria: It's really Joe: Well, Maria: A pleasure Joe: Thank Maria: To see Joe: You Maria: You. Joe: So much. Maria: All right. Take care.

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Part 2 - A Conversation with Richard Maxwell

Play Episode Listen Later Jun 3, 2020 83:03

Richard Maxwell has created and runs one of the most unique and inspiring creative musical arts and sciences program in the nation. For me, it reminds me of the entry level sound recording program I went through in college, only Richard's students get into the creative process early because of what he had the guts to create. This program happens in an area of the school campus where they have their own section of rooms that is their facility. It's made up of a larger classroom if you will that doubles as a performance room plus they have 15 Pro Tools stations and Pro Tools running in their A and B recording studios. They learn how to be expressive without fear of judgement, they write songs, they mutually assist and critique each others work in a helpful, loving way and it's magical to see what happens on a daily basis. Richard is a loving, caring person who, by his own efforts and fortitude, has created a platform where he can give the students, his very best in regards to guidance, ideas and processes.If you love music, talking about music, the process of making music, what music looks like in today's world, interested in how music could be handled in schools or always wondered how a single person can make a huge change in our education system, these episodes split into Part 1 and Part 2, are for you! Enjoy, share and spread the musical love. ********** Richard Maxwell's Links: Richard's Website: https://sites.google.com/view/richardmaxwell CMAS Program: https://sites.google.com/view/arcadiacmas YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/RichardMaxwellMusic/videos Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/richard.maxwell.3538 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/rchrdmxwll/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/rchrdmxwll LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-maxwell-235ab513/ https://youtu.be/wtg_TV3j_wA ********** Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass ********** If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#thejoecostelloshow Subscribe, Rate & Review:I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to https://joecostelloglobal.com/#thejoecostelloshow Follow Joe: Twitter: https://twitter.com/jcostelloglobal Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jcostelloglobal/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jcostelloglobal/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUZsrJsf8-1dS6ddAa9Sr1Q?view_as=subscriber Transcript Part 1 – Richard Maxwell Interview: Richard: Basically on a whim. A weird situation develops. And I get a phone call from the then band teacher of all things at Arcadia. This is the late 90s, I'm giving away my age a little bit, I suppose, but we didn't know each other directly, but he had also gone to U of A at one point. And we've heard of each other and for a variety reasons, it just wasn't happy in Tucson. And he says, "Hey, I have a situation, would you be interested in moving up to teach here at Arcadia? [Richard] "Sure!" [He says] "You want to know what the gig is?" [Richard] "Not really" So we're three weeks into the school year at this point. So I come up and I spent a day with him at the school getting a sense for what it is and I walk away thinking, ok, this could be kind of cool. I want the orchestra too. Because that's where my love was, so, I, I meet the principal, great guy, Jim Lee. And he hires me and in the conversation I said, "Look, I'm so excited for it," it's like a first real, it's a big gig for me, it's a huge thing. And it's I'm going to, you know, bigger city, better music town, I'm thinking all these different things, but I tell him, like, "I know the orchestra teachers a couple years from retiring, I want writer first refusal." And he's, you know, whatever, but he, he agrees, thinking probably I'll forget and I can remember a long interview process, with parents and everybody else. Basically what happens is, is after my first year, a couple of things happened that kind of get things a little weird. So I'm still trying to do my own thing in the world of regular music but I don't know enough about the Phoenix music scene at the time I was trying to hold down this job, that is awesome but kind of beaten me up just because I'm new at it. So I make a whole bunch of changes, you know, he had a very, very big jazz program, which is awesome! I love jazz, but as a director, which I don't like the word director, if it makes me feel like a traffic cop, if I can still want to Greg's themes, but I didn't that wasn't where I wanted to be. So I morphed into more like wind ensembles and we ended some pretty heavy stuff. And there's a bit of a love hate with it, but you can see like the level of musicianship. And I'm like everybody who's gonna read notes, like we're not playing games with this, lot of wrote stuff, a lot of, you know, play it based on your, you know, improvising skills, which is fine and you need to do that as well. But I had a certain level standards and I was still pretty, pretty much full of my own brilliance at that point. I mean, let's not kid ourselves. Joe: And this Richard: And Joe: Was just band at this point. Richard: Was that Joe: Was this just Richard: This Joe: Band Richard: Is band Joe: At Richard: This Joe: This Richard: Is that Joe: Point? Richard: First Joe: Ok. Richard: Year. Joe: Ok. Richard: So the second year, two things happen. One is Jim, I guess, decides the principle that I must not have completely destroyed things. And he comes to me and says, "Look, we have this opportunity to expand your contract. We don't have a choir teacher anymore. Can you take over the choir?" I very foolishly said Joe: Well. Richard: "Yes!" It was bad idea, it was a bad idea for the kids. It was bad idea for I mean, it was just bad. It was. It was. It was. It was well-intentioned... if had that opportunity now, because I do a lot of stuff with a lot of vocalists now, now I could do it and do it comfortably and make that experience significant in a way for those kids that they would be glad, I think that they had it, not then! Oh, my gosh, not even not, I mean, like, literally, I want you to imagine the worst possible experience for those students and then be grateful if they would have had even half of that level of a caliber of experience. I mean, it was, it was, it was horrible. But the other thing he asks me to do is take over the guitar class slash club. Because Joe: Interesting. Richard: He knows that I gig a little bad and I do the singer-songwriter thing a little bit and the studio stuff a little bit, he knows I have these other interests, but he doesn't really know to what extent. And you know, I'm not responsible basically anybody but myself in terms of my time at that point. I don't have any real you know, why not? And it's money and and it's a gig and I like the school and I like the people there and I like the community and da a da a da. So "Sure, why not?" So I take on this whole thing and basically what happens is, things start to build and eventually you wind up with, you know, I have two full symphony orchestras, winds, strings, percussion, all in the same rehearsal hall every day, all year round. We're still doing a marching band, while my version of marching band, which I have been justifiably criticized many times, I'm not a marching band guy, I'm a, I mean, I love the art of it. But I was I like, you know, one year we wrote our own show, the kids and you know, one year, you know, we were doing crazy, we were, it was just nuts, it was you know, they wanted to do rock shows the last two years. And I was kind of moving away from that because I you know, you just you know what you know and you know what you are Joe: Yep, Richard: Or what you're not. Joe: Yep. Richard: So I was like, okay, we'll do rock shows, but if we're going to do rock shows, you don't need a conductor, that's where literally we're wasting a ah resource, right? So, so we had a drum line, our drum line became our click track, screwed up everything in our scores because you didn't get a caption award and you didn't get points, they deducted points for not having a drum major. Joe: WOW! Richard: So it killed our scores. But musically, I think those kids benefited from that. Because that sense of internal clock and time and how you synchronize and what that does to intonation and every other musical element you can think of. I mean, all the things that you as a very seasoned studio player, let alone all your live work when you're sitting there in the control room, listening to playback on that and you're going, you know, because somebody can't...you know, Joe: Yeah, Richard: I know, you know, but Joe: Sometimes Richard: But Joe: It's me, Richard: well... Joe: So I do know. Richard: I doubt it. No, seriously. But my point is, is that, that, that was sort of where things started to change up a little bit. The guitar program is growing crazy. Some Joe: Still Richard: In Joe: To Richard: Some Joe: This Richard: Ways Joe: Day, Richard: Because it Joe: Are then. Richard: This is then Joe: Then Richard: This is Joe: Ok. Richard: Then. So we've got the orchestra building. We've got you know, there's Joe: A Richard: Now there's Joe: Wind Richard: Piano, Joe: Dancer. Richard: There's, you know, everything's building up and we've got songwriting I introduce because for me I've always been kind of a cool you play an instrument, what can you make with it. Well but it's the clarinet. I don't care, what can you make with it? You know, I don't, it doesn't matter to me. So guitar to me, you know, the first year or two was very much about just technique and then I got very much in to, I don't, I don't care about this technique. Let's write songs, let's make music. And it just so it seems kind of going and going, going and eventually it just, the circumstances are such, that there's basically too much to do for one person or even two people. My oldest son, who came in a minute ago, was born without going too far, but he was born 10 weeks early. And he's obviously, you saw he's fine. But at the time and I'm like, I need a change. I've been at Arcadia at that point for nine years. Joe: You Richard: There Joe: Basically Richard: Is a point. Joe: Have said yes to every single thing they've asked you to do. Richard: Well, Joe: Ok. Richard: But I've also enjoyed the challenge. I mean Joe: Right. Richard: I mean, the truth is, is I enjoy the challenge. I'll tell you, this is heading to something that you're probably going to go either think, WOW!, that's really cool or are you out of your mind or possibly both. But in any case, we, you know, there's an opportunity, that our principal has changed, and we have Anne-Marie Woolsey, Dr. Woolsey is there. And I start talking about this idea. And the idea is why, I'm starting to really and maybe it's just because of my own state of mind, but we're doing all these things with, you know, we have what we call the songwriters and we have the more traditional ensembles, it's not CMAS yet, but it's in its early stages of existing. And I'm actually still, I have I have a couple of now what I would say close friends that are graduates from that time who are incredibly supportive people you might even talk to, you just like, like I'm like, so I'll just, local guys like Thomas Brennaman and Alex Fry and Zach Tonkin and there's a ton of them, there's a ton, Ed Bakerman, Addie. She's still gigging all the time all over the country, she's brilliant. I mean, there's, there's, there's a ton of these people, but Joe: And Richard: They're Joe: This Richard: On one Joe: Is late, Richard: Side of. Joe: This is late. Richard: This is this is still within those nine years. Joe: Right. So this would be since you started there. Richard: This is like 08, 07, 08 kind Joe: Right. Richard: Of thing. Joe: Right. OK. Richard: And I am starting to get and it's just kind of I think it's a culmination of things. Most music teachers at a school are, you know, the average is less than five years, I'm at nine, which isn't like good or bad, it just kind of is what it is. But I'm also really struggling. I realize now in retrospect with this dual musical experience, because you know, this is at a time where these devices are starting to come of age, streaming is starting to become a thing and on and on. And you, I just, other people have phrased it so much better than I have but just this idea that the kids, it's done in their rehearsal and they explore all this music, but then as soon as the rehearsals over, they're going home and what are they listening to? Everything but what they're rehearsing. Joe: Right. Richard: And I understand the argument of well, but that's why you need to have those ensembles and do, and I don't think that's necessarily wrong. But fundamentally, there's something missing, if you are, if you, if the real world has one opportunity and the educational world has one that is completely diametrically opposed to that. And we're talking about something that ultimately comes down to a cultural element, a tell your story, if you will, element, which is what I think all art really comes down to. And that's being effectively either ignored or dismissed or in many cases, I would say, mutated into something that basically makes somebody feel, makes a student feel like somehow their musical instincts are either, I don't know, at best immature. But, you know, you talk about a terrible amount of disenfranchisement and disenfranchisement, you're talking about a terrible amount of just not, they think, they feel like it's not legit, like they're not legitimate somehow, that's their choice, you Joe: Right. Richard: Know, or we don't do that here, kid, that kind of thing. Joe: There's a misalignment. Richard: Yeah, and Joe: It's Richard: It doesn't Joe: Just weird. Richard: Mean anything if you walk the logic through, it doesn't make any sense. And yet, it is still essentially perpetrated across the world and a lot of ways, and I just was like, got to do something, now I, you could argue I went too far to the extreme and I regret but, you know, for all the things we've accomplished and all the things that we've done and, you know, the program is basically now I said, okay, look, I've got all these songwriters, we've got this, this is what I've become kind of like an industry history class. We've got the guitar players. You know, we had the pianist. We've got, we, we have this contemporary thing happening anyway. So I went to the principal and I basically said, "Can I just walk away from the band and orchestra part?" It's become, you know, "It's just not me anymore the way we'd like it to be," the politics with the parents and everything else is getting sick, I was just tired Joe: Yes. Richard: Of it. I don't do well with it anyway. That's why, I just, I'm just, I'm very confrontation adverse. It's just, just naturally. And then you get into like high school band and orchestra parent land, with all due respect and it just wasn't, it wasn't gonna be, I wasn't gonna last long without losing my mind. Plus again, Grayson, ten weeks early. So I held on for one more year and I remember very clearly that last concert we did, you know, the good, the farewell symphony, the Haydn at the, as the last piece. And I remember choreographing it and nobody knew about what I was doing, except for my very good friend, who's still my good friend, the theater teacher who was running the lights for us in the on the stage and the head of the school security who's still there, Jeri Eshelman. I told the two of them what I was gonna do, and that was it. Go through the whole concert, do the whole senior recognition thing, the whole thank you's and all of it and then we do, traditionally, we would do one last song. We do the one last song which the farewell symphony, which I'm not sure if you're familiar with, but literally the way Haydn wrote it was that as it's ending, the players get up and leave the stage until eventually Joe: Right. Richard: Not Joe: Right. Richard: Even the conductor is there and it's just I believe it's just the single first violinist if I remember right. So we did that and I added one element. I walked off the stage and very quietly walked out the stage door to my car and went home. Joe: Of course you did. Richard: I just left. It's kind of rude, I suppose. Joe: It's awesome! Richard: But, but, but it is. Joe: And you're still there Richard: Yes. Joe: And you're still employed by that school. Richard: I am, I am, but doing something very different. And it has been, I mean, you know, we could have an entire series of podcasts on the politics of what has gone on. Joe: Oh, Richard: It has Joe: I Richard: Been. Joe: Can Richard: It's Joe: Only imagine. Richard: It's been. I used to get really angry about it. I still am frustrated by it at times. But now I'm more like, I don't, I'm almost more entertained. Because there are too many people now that like yourself who are seasoned industry professionals or their education professionals, who see the concept of what what we've built there and very specifically say that concept is important and vital and necessary so that, you know, you get enough music education, professors and universities and like I said, actual, real in the industry, people saying this is what should happen. And all the arguments become a little bit silly after a while. So now Joe: Yup. Richard: I'm just kind of like, really? You want to line up, you know, your cynical view against of, forget me, you're going to tell all these other people they're wrong!? Joe: Yeah. Richard: WOW! Even in my most arrogant, I wasn't going to do that. So it is what it is. But, you know, it's, it's, it's, it has evolved a lot. I mean, you know, if you look at the setup and even now, I mean, obviously with the closure, Joe: But Richard: Things are different. Joe: Wait, Richard: But. Joe: Before you get past this, so you, you, you state you said you were gonna do one more year. Richard: This is the end of that year. Joe: Ok. Richard: So this is the end of that year. So I basically, you know, and, you know, I made several mistakes, big ones! One of them was, the then head of the district's fine arts and I've talked to Anne Marie since about this and she agrees that she should never have agreed to this. Basically said, ok, we'll support you doing this, but you have to stay away from your old program because you're still going to be on campus and the new teacher needs the opportunity, because, because that kind of community of students is it's a, it's a very family kind of thing. Well, what happened is it became very confrontational between the two programs. My new program is the new "IT." The new teacher is struggling for a lot of different reasons. Put in a situation that she cannot possibly succeed in. You know, imagine being a young teacher and they give you a class of band, a class of orchestra that they've separated now, you have a percussion ensemble, you have a piano class, I think she had a computer class, I mean, it was literally like we're giving you all of the leftovers. It was Joe: Yes. Richard: It was a terrible gig. Nobody is going to do well in that situation under any circumstances, period. It's just. Joe: Right. Richard: A nightmare scenario. But what winds up happening is it creates a lot of friction and a lot of confrontation. And I again, I am so committed to, we have to prove that this thing should exist because I like in my gut, I know it should but I don't have proof of concept yet. There's nobody doing it at a high school, the way I wanted to do it, you know, there was, there were programs that I had found it, then maybe, maybe this is more my inability at the time to search Google effectively. But, you know, you had people doing production. Absolutely! You had the technical side of it and you had people having like composition classes or songwriting classes, even rock band classes or whatever they call them. But I wasn't finding anybody that was looking at it in a more homogenous way, in a more holistic way of it needs to all be, it's all of it, you know. And so I was kind of starting from scratch. I took a lot of college curriculum. I talked to a lot of people that were in the industry and just kind of threw things against the wall to see what would stick. But in those early years, as I'm getting, you know, all these criticisms and destroying this, you know, you're killing the orig...you know, the traditional program, all these things that are provably false and everything else. But that reputation did build for quite a while and I I was like constantly biting my tongue because, again, you know, if I could avoid the confrontation and put it off for Joe: Yeah, Richard: A little while, I'd rather do that bad habit. Don't you know, Joe: Yeah. Richard: Kids don't do that if you're listening, don't do that! But I know, so I just, I really I struggle with that a lot. But we kept building things and one of the things that I saw, a couple of things that I've discovered in all of this, which is that, kind of like what I was saying earlier about the shows we did even during the COVID closure, that are very imperfect. If you, if you were to sit down and look at those shows that we did just these last several weeks, you could be arguably disappointed in a lot of there's, there's glitches and sound and some other things like but this is not what, don't you deal with audio and all this other stuff? But that wasn't really the point. And so we would have we have shows and in some shows there's people that are like, wow, you put that act onstage? Really? I'm like, yeah, is that kid now has been on stage and now we can move from there. Process has to matter more. I get in the professional world why it can't on some level but at the same time, boy, I wish it could. I'm Joe: Yeah, Richard: Sure you do too. And a Joe: Yeah. Richard: Lot of ways just knowing you, you know, I mean, you don't, you get duplication and you get repeats and you get even a certain level of perfection, but you don't get real originality unless you're willing to deal with process over product. I mean, you have to really embrace it. You know, Little Richard just died, as you know and it really, I mean, aside from I mean, is there anybody he did not influence in some way? I mean, literally, the man's legacy is endless. The other thing that kind of is horrible to say, but we're getting to a point where we are going to be out of truly original musicians, truly innovative people, there are very few people and I'm not even saying it's an age thing, it's just who's out there doing things that you go, WOW!, I've never heard that before in that context. And they're just, you know, there's a lot people perfecting it. There's a lot of people doing incredibly viable things and wonderful things musically. But to truly be innovative like that. But anyway, I'm so sorry I get Joe: No Richard: On tangents. I'm Joe: Better. Richard: So sorry Joe: It's okay. Richard: He I'm so, so, so this idea of, you know, process becomes really, really important and we're building it. And then. And what I was gonna say is, is that. Joe: But at this point, I'm trying to just make sure that both the viewers and listeners and I'm clear, though, that that you have this woman who is now responsible for these various things like band and orchestra and whatever else she was given that you have now been given the license, you know, the stamp of approval by the principal or Richard: And the district. Joe: The Richard: Yeah, Joe: District Richard: Yeah. Joe: To create this program that involves what at that time? Richard: Ok. So I you know, I'm sorry. Thank you for pulling back. So there actually is another player, analyst named Mitch Simmons, who needs to be mentioned. He is the director of the district's what's called Career and Technical Education Department at the time. And Mitch is brilliant and wonderful and will self-described himself as not having a musical bone in his body. But when I made this absurd proposal to him and I gave him like a 20 page document, like I had a curriculum and I had standards that I had adapted and which later wound up becoming basically the first draft that the state used and is still using for a lot of, a lot of things. Thankfully, they've had other people come in and perfect them and not just be stuck with my mediocrity, but. But Mitch, Mitch looked at and he goes, we so need this, this is the bridge, we've been looking for the bridge. Arts and here's the thing, everybody looks at career technical education, they get so hung up on the t the technology part. That's, in my view, as I get a lot, I get on a lot trouble with actually CTE people. I get, I get in trouble with the arts people for one thing and then I get in trouble for CTE people with the other. The "T" is, is completely to me, is nearly, it needs to be like lower case and in the smallest font possible. It's the "C" it's the career part. Joe: Right. Richard: Where's the job? Mitch saw it even better, like I understood, like it was my idea. But he saw other things in it and he's like "You", he's like, "Oh, my gosh, we can get, kids could get jobs in these industries." I'm like, "Yeah, we could!" And he gave me, I was, it was a perfect storm. He gave me the flexibility to just screw it up and rework it and reiterate it and retry and my principal did the same thing. And coming back to these shows that we had done, I told you I knew I would loop around back to my tangent. One Joe: And Richard: Of the Joe: This Richard: Things Joe: Is still Richard: That I. Joe: 2009. Richard: We're Joe: Is Richard: Still Joe: This Richard: In 2009, Joe: Ok? Richard: But Joe: Ok. Richard: It relates to something that just happened in the last few weeks. When you have students go through a process where we start with essentially nothing and they go through a self derived process or a self adapted process at the very least and then at the end there's a thing. I don't care what that thing is, that is powerful and wonderful and awesome and so that when you have like we would have shows, we still sometimes have shows that are just like, oh, you got to be kidding me. Because underneath that, there's also the, you've got to be kidding me! Joe: Yeah. Richard: Like, I mean, it works in both directions because it's derived and, and one of the things that I've learned is, teachers and educators who live exclusively and vicariously through their students are doomed to get burned out, frustrated and every other negative you can possibly think of. And I, I am committed to that completely. I don't think you can be competitive and creative at the same time. I believe that is like one of my very big mantras. I think that, you have to be your own creative, like I have struggled a lot, like, like thank God for therapy a lot, with not feeling like I've been able to do my own creative stuff. And I've sort of over the last year and it's been a struggle, it's made this year very weird and very difficult in some ways to say, like wait, I need to find a way to have my own creative outlet because it's not healthy. Like, it just isn't healthy. And whether that creative outlet is me throwing a video up on YouTube or a song up on SoundCloud that four people listened to or four million people listened to is kind of not really the issue. But that, we go from nothing through the process that a thing exists. It's all, it all ties together in this weird Zen ying yang thing. But as we grow, you know, we start doing all kinds of live events. We are, you know, we start very cobbled together. The early parts of the program in the early versions of the program, I didn't let the kids record anything in the first year. It was all learn an instrument. Keeps Joe: Did you even Richard: Them. Joe: Have the equipment Richard: Oh, yeah. Joe: That early? Richard: I mean, it was it wasn't what we have now. Don't Joe: No. Richard: Get me Joe: But Richard: Wrong. Joe: But you went Richard: Yeah. Joe: In there and you said, I need this, this, this, this and this to make this happen. Richard: So we started they got me a bunch of iMacs and we got some interfaces and we got Pro Tools early on because I know we're gonna do it for real and I was very committed to the legitimacy. Overcommitted, possibly, that I allowed other things to suffer. That battle that I know, the politics of things that I allowed myself to fall into the traps of these circular logic arguments that now I would never allow myself to do but, you know. Joe: Guy. Richard: Past is behind us and what's been has been, you know, that is what it is, but. But we just kept evolving and it's still evolves and, you know, we've we've, we've gone so far, as you know, there were years, the marching band kind of fell into a state of disarray and almost non-existence for several years. We started playing all of the home games, kind of like mini Super Bowls. Literally wheeling stages out and putting together shows for that. We still do them once a year. The marching band is back and is now for the last several years, like wins every award on the planet, literally. And God love them for it. It's amazing! Not my, you know, but that wasn't me. And that needs to be ok. I have some people that are still mad at me about that too, but whatever I don't, you know. But we, you know, we can go into studios, we go into every couple of years now we've been going to Blackbird Studios in Nashville this is like, in Nashville. This is a multi-million dollar facility. The last time we were there in February, just before all the closure happened, we were, I mean this is how far the things have evolved, this is possibly the greatest, I've gotten a lot of big compliments and they all mean a lot to me. We befriended Steve Marcantonio because he's the uncle of one of my former students. I don't know if you know, forgive the namedrop but Steve, I mean, like he got his start on John Lennon's last album. What, I mean, so you mean he's, the man knows his stuff! He's a genius and the nicest guy in the world. Like, like unbelievably giving of his time. He has come in and produced our sessions at or engineered our sessions at Blackbird and supervised them while we're there. So we're like one of the greatest recording spaces on the planet with one of the most gifted engineers to ever live and it's a bunch of high school students and me. Joe: That's amazing. Richard: Yeah. Life, Joe: How many Richard: Eight life. Joe: How many go to that trip? Richard: We took like 25 or so, this time 30. Joe: And how do you how do they get chosen? Richard: They just decide they want to go. Joe: Ok. Richard: We make it through tax credit. I have, I'm not going to do the cookie dough thing. I'm just not going to. You know, Joe: Yeah. Richard: Hey, I just I can't do it, but and it's expensive and it sucks and we try to scholarship where we can, Joe: Yeah. Richard: You know, we don't take nearly as many. But, but it's an opportunity. We do other things, we go to the conservatory recording arts and sciences. I'm looking at doing more. There's a lot of great stuff here in Phoenix for that opportunity Joe: Right. Richard: Or similar opportunities. But there is something cool about it, I mean, Nashville is Nashville. Let's not kid ourselves. It's just it's a great if Joe: Get. Richard: I could move anywhere and know I could still make a living, Joe: Yeah. Richard: I'd totally I'd totally being Nashville. I Joe: Yeah. Richard: Just. What a great place! But what you say is, is that this is this, this, this is unbelievable to me. So Steve walks in and he's giving the students an orientation and he's talking about all this gear and he gets about two minutes into it and then he looks at me and then he looks at them and he literally goes, "What? I'm wasting our time, your kids already know all this!" Because he's like talking Joe: Nice. Richard: About how, like the studios are set up and everything else. Ok, so that's not even the biggest compliment. We start getting everything set up and the boards placed and you know, Blackbird's provided interns and these are very highly skilled professionals and we've got Steve, ok? I have a couple of my more experienced students, one in particular who's she's like, I don't even think she's five feet tall, she's a graduating senior. She's just really quiet, sweet little girl, Emma. And she's up at the board and he just walks away. Like, not like I'm quitting, he walks away and he leans over to me and goes, "You don't need me." Joe: What's so funny? Richard: He goes, "She's got this!", he's like, "I'm going to just sit here and listen and I'll give some suggestions." And literally, that's how we spent an entire day recording, I don't know, 9 or 10 tracks or whatever it was of the students, some of them are great, some of them not so much, it doesn't really matter. But, you know, he, and it wasn't because he was lazy. Steve is like the least, you know, like between the two of you, it would be a really tough pick of who works harder. I mean, he wasn't just walking away because he didn't feel like helping, he was just like I'm going to give them the chance at this and this is a like it's like an 18, 20 million dollar place. This was not like, you know, these weren't inexpensive facilities with inexpensive gear. This was, you know, potentially massive, you know, liability and he's like "They have, they have this, just just do what you're doing." Joe: And I assume Emma is running a Pro Tools session? Richard: Oh, yeah, yeah, Joe: Right! Richard: A but, but mostly running the board, you know, on the side. I think it was an API. Joe: Ok, Richard: Something worth like more than my house, like Joe: Sure. Richard: 10 times over Joe: Yeah. Richard: In a room, you know, I think at one point Queen had recorded in the same room. I mean, this is not you know, Joe: Yeah. Richard: And who knows who else. I mean, this is unbelievable! I mean, Joe: Right. Richard: It was, but that to me, that was one of those moments where I was like, ok, the ups and downs of everything that may have gone on, clearly, again, at least as terms in terms of the concept, wWe're doing ok. You know, Joe: Yeah. Richard: If Steve Steve Marcantonio feels like he can let my students run a session on that equipment...ok Joe: Yeah, Richard: I'm going to take that for the win. I just Joe: Sure. Richard: I just don't think Joe: So the program Richard: I. Joe: At this point still in 2009 involves what different aspects? And how do kids get into it or not be in it? Richard: Ok, so I and I still, as much as I can have a, if you like anything at all about music in any capacity, I want you in here. Joe: Ok. Richard: If you're hard to work with, this is probably not going to go well. If you're, if you're lazy, that's going to be ok, as long as you're not blaming me for your laziness. If you own up to it, we'll find a way to make it work. I know that there's a lot of people will say, you know what? "You got to drive the kids, you got to drive the kids." And you know what? That's probably true. I just can't do it because my brain keeps going back to like I get, I get, I get hung up on the I, "You don't want to pick up that instrument and play it!?" I don't, what? what? "Why would you not want to pick up that instrument and play it!?" It literally, doesn't, I can't, I can't sort it, I wish I could, I know that maybe that's a cop out. But basically, at this point, everybody comes in and it's a year of intense, got to play instruments, got to play instruments, got to play instruments. There's a lot of benefits to that. But I start running into a philosophical problem, which maybe I needed to get over myself. But, you know, at the time, the original name of the program was not Creative Musical Arts and Sciences, it was Contemporary Music and Sound. The word contemporary has a lot of baggage, I soon found out. And I also felt like it wasn't really accurate. I wanted the word creative. Joe: Super important. Richard: It needed, it just needed to be there. So there you have the name change. And what, what starts to happen over the preceding years and you know, we get better at producing more material. We are proving ourselves more and more so we can get a hold of more equipment and things of that nature. And all the while, in the back of my head, is this creative name thing happens. You start referring to like what I wanted to be, which is a truly open, creative platform. And so what happens is I start to look at that first year and I go, well, wait a minute, I'm setting up roadblocks for these kids, well-intentioned roadblocks. And I think from a pedagogy standpoint, the idea of you have to rock or a rock...you to walk before you can run. I get it! I understand it! You know, you got to start with, you know, plan like, you know, your 50's kind of surf beats before you're gonna go play Tom Sawyer kind of stuff or whatever, you know, you're not you know, you're not playing a Purdie shuffle right out of the gate. You know, it's I mean, there's you know, and I understand that. But, and maybe this is a, a nod to the reality of the world that students currently live in and maybe maybe it's wrong of me to to say, well, it's ok but there is a, if you're going to be truly open and creative, then you need to be open and creative. Richard: And I started to develop this process where I would look at the program and anything we would want to do or anything the kid would propose and I would say, "Does this move their process forward or not?" And I started to look at the first year and that massive intensity on learning to play an instrument. And I looked at the well, ok, it could be argued that the long term benefits outweigh the short term frustrations but I'm loosing kids. And I'm also, I realize the thing that made me stop having just a year long exploration, if you will, of how to play an instrument, was I realized that the very thing that I was railing against in the traditional music world that, you know, you got to stop telling kids that just because they want to, like the turntables thing, is somehow illegitimate musically. I realize that in my own way I was doing that. And there are so many graduates now that I have been so tempted to try to find on social media and be like, hey, you probably don't remember me, that jerk music teacher you had for a year or two in high school but I wanted to tell you, I was wrong about this part of the approach. And I'm constantly looking like, to me, this is cathartic, like I will confess that in a heartbeat. Whereas other people what are you doing? What do you know? But I'm I can't, I can't, I have a hard... Richard: I look at the program right now. I look at the program in terms of this closure and I even thought, we were doing a workshop yesterday with a bunch of students on some stuff and we got on the topic of it and just their frustrations and the whole thing and I said, honestly, I'm not looking for false compliments here, I said "I would give myself a C plus for how I've executed things as the instructor, as the facilitator." And I'm pretty good at this stuff, I actually have been consulting for years with other people on how to move their game forward and you know, weird situations or whatever. And I'd only give myself a C plus. And, you know, that's really made me think. But in any case, it all comes back to this open creative platform idea. And so what I realized is that when I tell a kid, look, you're going to spend a year really getting good at guitar so that in year two we can start writing and recording. What I've actually said to them is your ideas aren't worthy yet. And the more I thought about it, the more I got really upset with myself. And I just basically decided that whatever happens, happens but I'm not going to do that anymore. And if a kid comes in and all they can do is grab a single drumstick and whack a snare drum in time with their friend. Go back to that Marcus Mumford kick drum idea Joe: Yeah, Richard: A little Joe: Yeah. Richard: Bit, if that's all they can do? We're going to legitimize that because and here's what I found. It's like a slingshot a little bit. Yeah, they seem like they're almost moving backwards in their musical skill set because you're not pushing that but what seems to happen is when you legitimize it a couple of things happened, including they get self-motivated. Because that kid that starts just on that snare drum hitting out time, if they stick with that in the context of I'm making music with my friend, they will get it in time, and then once that's in time, they're going to go, "What happens if I pick up another drumstick and now I've got one in each hand?" And now we have, you know, doubled the rhythmic possibilities. But they're looking at it through the perspective of what can I do with it musically, not all about technique. Technique can't be the "T" for technique can't be important, just like the "T" for technology can't be important. It just can't! The creativity, the career, the career part has to be the over shouting or over overarching thing and it has to be overshadowing everything else on, as far as I'm concerned, a multi expo, an exponential level. It just has to be! So I've continued to move into that. So now the technique is covered differently. I have what I call the, I just, I call it the GAC should be the GEC. It's G, E minor and C and the premise is you're going to learn G, E minor and C or you're going to learn how to keep a very basic beat to somebody else who's learning G, E, minor and C and we're going to have you make a piece of music with those three really basic chords that are all white keys on a piano, that you can play with one finger on a couple of strings on a uke or a bass or a guitar, or you're gonna you know, you're gonna sing unison tones if you're a vocalist or match it with that clarinet or I don't care, it's not about that. It's about seeing the musical connections with somebody else. You are going to collab, that's the other thing, the collaboration part. I can keep bringing on all these "C" words, but it really. They'll become, the self motivation will make up for it. The other thing, too, is, you know, if I want to play Beethoven, I need a certain amount of technique or I'm not getting Beethoven, I acknowledge that, that's important. There is an art to that, that cannot be overstated. But I don't require Beethoven to express myself. And I think a lot of people get confused about that. And I think a lot of people don't understand the importance of it. I think. well, heck, Beethoven himself changed things so radically because he himself believed that he should express himself the way he felt he should express. I mean, I mean like literally by ironically moving away from Beethoven, where if we do it, I think in this context, we're actually paying an odd sort of homage to him Joe: All right. What he believed Richard: Philosophically Joe: In. Richard: in terms of music. And it's just evolved from there. I would rather see a kid get up and play something that's theirs, that is imperfect. But that is them. Then have a kid get up there and feel like, well, it doesn't sound like it's supposed to because that's not what the recording sounded like. Who cares? That's not what it's for. I found over the course, you know, as it's as this is as grown. It was interesting over that, we're finished out. The school year ends next week. But I've been having weekly scheduled workshops that I have kids come into when they can. I should have probably and this is part of my C plus or C minus that I'd give myself. I made them essentially optional as long as they kept up with the asynchronous assignments and stuff. But what I found happened was, is a lot of kids are showing up to these things, just for the sense of showing up to something. You know, we're having conversations that are Joe: To Richard: Rooted Joe: See their Richard: In Joe: Friends Richard: Music. Joe: And. Richard: Yeah, but, but, but, but that's, that's OK. Like, like that's turning into good things. Or I'll go out and frequently what happens is we'll have our session, we'll be talking, we'll come to the end of it, I'll have to go on to something else with another group or whatever and they'll be saying, "Hey, can you hit me up real quick? You know, open up another Zoom?" Or they'll do it on Dischord or whatever and, you know, let's play around some ideas or stuff. So it's, they're still making connections and if they use the workshops for that, do I really have to care that they didn't present the project, you know, in the same circumstance? They submitted the project, will take a look at it or we'll do it in a different workshop. It's ok. I think things like that have to matter more. What I was gonna say and I know, oh, my gosh, I'm gonna hit your two and a half hour mark. I'm so sorry! Joe: So Richard: I mean, I'm, I'm embarrassed. Joe: It's okay...No not at all Richard: I do have to, but I do have to share one other part of the program that has evolved since just last year. And I'm glad you're sitting down for this, because when I describe it to you, it's almost comically funny, but I mean to preface it by telling you that I am now so committed to this because I see the open creative platform element, in such a different way now, that I am, I'm well into my career as an educator. I'm not that old, but I'm old enough. This has given me so much of an interest in what could the next phase of this CMAS program be that I can't even begin to tell you. I would love to bring back the more traditional ensembles. I know, I actually have derived a plan. I know it would work. Politics won't let me do that. Someday I still have hope but this is different. Out of the blue last spring, I get asked and I still don't fully understand why I got asked. I got asked to, of all things, pilot, no, not pilot. I got us the first started with teach at Arcadia, an engineering design class. Why are you giving me an engineering design class? Well, because you're technically qualified because of the CTE, the way the rules are written for CTE. And you like having the extra contract and this way you can keep the extra contract, because every I look at everything through the lens of my two little boys. That I will literally do I will braid your hair, Joe, for a six fig, for an extra contract. Richard: That's literally where my, that's I mean, I will totally do it. So but so I'm like, ok, sure, why? why not. Right? And I'm, I don't want to throw anybody under the bus, but to put it nicely, I'm promised a whole lot of resources and none of them, none of them come through. On a whim, I threw a thing like, the one thing that they said they were setting up for me, the people organizing were like, "Yeah, you don't have the engineering background to come to this conference for us to work with you, really sorry." The woman who was basically organizing it for this conference, not in my district, not at my school, actually still have yet to meet her. I would like to meet her. Jill was really kind. She's like, but I know of this other thing going on. I'm going to call you back in half an hour. She calls me back with these phone numbers. I went up on the phone with these people that are going to pilot for this previous school year, for the first time, they have a multi-million dollar grant through the National Science Foundation to revamp the entire concept of engineering in schools. Richard: It's headed up by and now I am flexing on their behalf. ASU, which is one of the large...I think it's the largest engineering school in the world, believe it or not, Vanderbilt, University of Maryland, Virginia Tech and I forget the fifth major university that is supervising this. And they, because the woman, Jill, from this other thing, this small little training session that they won't let me go to because I don't have the degree in engineering. Got all this experience in audio engineering but none of that, and that's fine. They are all excited and I think they may all be drunk. I don't know what's going on. So literally, they're like, no, no, no, no, we, I'm like, I'm like, what are you talking about? They're like, okay, here's your, [Them]"Can you come to Maryland for a week over the summer?" [Richard] "I guess" [Then] "We'll pay for it, don't worry, we'll pay for everything. Just can you come to the University of Maryland, we're gonna do a training session." [Richard] "Yeah, OK." [Them] "It starts Sunday." This is like a Tuesday. They're like [Them] "If you can get on a plane, we want you here for a week to do this thing. We just got to make sure we, we just got dot some "i's" and cross some "t's" or whatever. Richard: So we get to Friday night and I get this call from, you know, one of their head lead, lead investigators on this whole thing and he goes, [Them]"Ok, yeah, yeah, we need you here!" I'm like, [Richard] "Are you sure? [Them] "No, no, no, we've been looking at your website and we've been looking at you, you're the perfect person for this!" And I'm like [Richard] "I'm a musician, maybe, I sure as hell I'm not an engineer, and they're like, [Them] "No, you don't understand." OK, they're like [Them] "Just come to Maryland." So I literally, I booked a flight on a Friday, I get on a plane Sunday morning and Sunday night I'm at a dinner where I am so not the smartest person in the room, it's not even funny, Joe. I mean, it's, and by the end of dinner, I realized what they're trying to do and what they've basically decide, what they've basically come up with and they've done all this research prior to it over the last several years, that the concept of what people think engineering is, is completely off. I say the word engineering not to be funny and flip the script here a little bit on you, what are the first three words when I say engineering that you think of? Joe: Well, I always think when you and I are talking and you say engineering, I'm thinking just sound engineering. That's like so when you keep, you keep talk, you keep talking about engineering, I'm like, what does he know about engineer, like Richard: Ok, Joe: Sound engineering? Richard: Ok, Joe: But Richard: So remove Joe: There's electrical Richard: The sound. Joe: Engineering, there's, I don't know, mechanical engineer, I don't know. There's whatever. Richard: Right. But are you going to minus the sound engineering part, you're not going to time much of any of that to music in any fashion right? And the thing of it is, where they did all this research is that apparently most people don't tie it to creativity either. And they don't tie it to solving problems for people. And they don't tie it to something that I've latched on to that, there's a story behind every single thing that has to get designed or built or created or engineered, because otherwise, how would you come up with the need? And some of these stories are incredibly impactful. So their whole premise is that they wanted to pilot this year, there were nine of us across the country, most of them on the East Coast and the Midwest. I was the only, one part of the reason they got excited, I think was also because I was from Arizona and Arizona didn't have anybody in it. And the University of Arizona was one of the biggest contributors to this whole thing excuse me, not University of Arizona, Arizona state. But in any case, but what started to happen, we start having these conversations. And by the end of dinner, we are talking about what they call the engineering design process and what I have for years been calling and have gotten, I guess you could say, known for of the creative process. And what we start to realize are, well, they're, they're kind of like halfway laughing at me, halfway laughing with me because they understood this already. This is why they got so excited for me, I know and they've told me this since. Because when you take the two processes, engineering, design and creative process and you put them next to each other when you keep the definitions the same, but change the jargon on a few terms, they're not just similar, they're actually identical in a really freaky way. So all of a sudden, last fall, I'm in the summer and fall, I'm like, oh my gosh! Well, now and you have to remember all these years of building this thing, then that whole epiphany about open creative platform and what that needs to mean. And now I just feel like I'm on a mission with this. So I go through this whole year and it's, it's very much kind of an engineering design process, although interestingly, I'm still getting and I still am every year getting the music education interns from ASU, nearly every music I get, I don't know I don't get every one of their music education majors, but I get almost all of them. At some point they spend a semester with me, for better or worse. They're coming in and they're watching this class, too and it's getting really interesting to see. And we're talking about parallels and process and parallels and possibilities everything else. And as we're going through this and I'm having meetings with these engineering folks from all over the country and we're talking about all the connections. And I'm like, I have an idea for year two. And I'm like, so I've built this industry based music program that has proven itself, I'm not saying we've got it perfected, but you know, I have a, I do at least have a reasonable track record for flying a plane while it's being built. Richard: And for upping the possibilities of where we can push things in terms of opportunities for kids. And I've been successful,I mean, it's not like, you know, I think that, you know, on balance, the risk of sounding a little egotistical, it's not unreasonable to say at least "Give me a shot to explore the idea." Right? So I started looking some like I'm looking at the standards for this new program I've been piloting for a year and looking at the state education standards. I'm looking at my music standards and my own program standards. And I'm going, oh, my gosh, we could take all of this stuff, you know, speaking of mixers, could have a kid build a mixer. Why not? They're going to have to, I mean, there's electrical engineering in that, we're getting into mechanical engineering because of what a mixture does in terms of its functions, in terms of controlling the sound of space in a room. There's all kinds of engineering already that and I was starring in little projects throughout the year. You know, had them designing windows. We'd need a window between our control room and our life studio space. These are the champagne first world problems that we have in CMAS. But I had the engineering students designing how that would look. We were talking, you know, the lighting on the soundstage and how can we build a different mechanism, door thresholds. I mean, we were already starting to do some of these stuff, at least as concepts and on all these different things. And I'm like, there's so many things. So I called the head of the State Joe: Wait, Richard: Department. Joe: Wait. Please Richard: I'm sorry. Joe: Tell me please tell me you're addressing the the buzz that can potentially come through the console from the lights Richard: Oh, absolutely. No, Joe: And Richard: We're talking about the electrical Joe: Please, Richard: Interference. Joe: Please tell me you're you're talking about the the awful sound of the air conditioner when it comes on while you're in the middle of Richard: Absolutely, Joe: All those all those Richard: All Joe: Things Richard: Those Joe: We Richard: Different Joe: Struggle. Richard: Things. Joe: That's right. Richard: You know, right now above my head, there's a fan because we live in Arizona and this is a house that I've been very lucky enough to be not to convert to a nice home studio, but it's still a house not built as a studio from scratch, you know. And we're talking about things of that nature, you know, how do you deal with isolation when you don't have isolation? I mean, you name it, we're, we're dealing with all this kinds and it's endless and this is my point. So I'm, I'm, I'm, I have this idea my, my district, God love them, doesn't quite see it. But the people who run the pilot with the National Science Foundation, they're looking at, they're going, "You're basically just talking about changing up the projects, not really changing up the standards of the curriculum goals." And I'm like, "Exactly!" Because it's the same thing, the prob...I mean, it's just the same thing. So I call the state, the head of the State Dept. of Ed, who I get along with to be fair. And I'm just like, "I just want to run this by you so that if anybody comes back and says you can't or shouldn't." And she hears that and she's like, "That's just I said, I already wanted to take your classes and now I now, I think I'm going to like, I'm going to come take your class!" Like she's all over it, but she's giving me ideas. So now, just to give you a sense of where this is headed, she goes, "OK, what about this?" I looked like she was even worse than I was. She's like, "What if you had the kids simulate like they're touring, like they're, they're a production company for a tour and they have to get the band from, let's say, LaGuardia Joe: That's awesome. Richard: Airport Joe: Yeah. Richard: Over to London and they got a design like, how are they going to put the gear on the plane? And they've got to calculate now, like, how much tonnage can they actually take and what are they gonna have to buy or rent over there versus what can they take it? How are they gonna get all these other things calculating like the air velocity and how long it will? Well, I'm like, we are so open like that, I mean, like the creative options are there, the industry options are there. And if you had told look, if you had told me years ago that, first of all, I'd be making, you know, my day job would be an education and I would enjoy that, I would think you were nuts! If you told me that I would be developing a pilot for an engineering program that somehow tied in the music industry legitimately and I'm not just like phoning it in and I'm like passionately committed to it. I would have had you locked up somewhere for being certifiable. But, but, you know, back to the original thing and I know that sounds funny, but this all still comes back to those key concepts to me, and that's why I'm excited about it. To me, what is the, what does the art need? Well, the art needs engineers. The art needs musicians. The art needs producers. The art needs...and I'm not just talking about sound engineers. They are important too. The art needs marketing. We've actually had and you've mentioned we've brought in a marketing track a little bit into, you know, what we do with the program. Anything that's industry based, the career part, you know, if it's career based, if it's creative, if it's collaborative. We should be able to do it, and if we can't, what I have learned is that's not because we can't do it, it's because we haven't figured out how to do it yet. And so I'm really big on any silos or any walls that block creative process. I'm knocking them down, you know, and I'm going to try piss off some people doing it. This engineering thing, there are some people that aren't thrilled about it and I'm gonna have to work through that at some point with them, just like there are people who aren't happy that the program exists. You know, on the music education side of it. Joe: That, to me, is just, blows my mind because and Richard: Because Joe: I Richard: Your career, Joe: Don't get it. Richard: But that's because you're career oriented. To you, you love the art but you also know what's necessary to pay the bills. Joe: Yeah, but it's just, it's a tool set that is invaluable because you're, you're going to run into situations where you're gonna be like, I'm so glad I was a part of that, because I can take even that one little piece of it and it's going to help me get through this moment. I mean, to be able to be a musician but at the same time, understand the process of recording, of acoustics, of, you know, so many other things. It's, I don't know. I'm blown away to even hear that. But that's. Richard: I, I, I hate to say it, but it's true. I mean. But like I said, part of me now looks at that and thinks it's just kind of funny almost. And not to, I don't I'm not wish, I'd like, I don't want the confrontation. But I mean, like the people that are going to say no to this, are going to go on record and saying those five major engineering institutions. You know, the National Science Foundation is wrong, Joe: Yeah. Richard: That that's not a real engineer. The state, the Department of Ed for the state, which is funny enough, almost like the smallest bat to swing in all of this, and that's a huge bat to swing. So I'm just kind of like, I'm just going to keep moving forward. It's good for the kids, the good you know, my site administration think they've, they don't get it, but they like it and they're kind of like, we're just going to stay out of your way. I'm not really worried, you know. I mean, it'll be what it'll be. If I'm wrong, I'll go find some, I mean, I guess I'd go find somewhere else, but I just don't I know I'm not wrong, I hate to say it that way. That's such a horribly arrogant thing to say after I talk all of that about not being arrogant. But these people have convinced me people like you have convinced me, you know, like I said, the industry part of it. Why? You know, of course, we all want to be A Listers with valets and somebody plugs in all our gear for us and everything else. But at the same time, the best musicians know how their gear works. Joe: Yeah. Richard: They just do. And to some extent, want to go and make sure it's, like even if they have somebody who plugs it in for them, can you honestly tell me? Look, I know you've had gigs where some but, you know, you've got a drum tech or whatever. You don't go and check that kit before before you perform on it? Just Joe: Yeah, it just Richard: I mean, it's Joe: It's part of your being. Yeah. Richard: Exactly Joe: Yes. Yeah. Richard: It's absurd not to. So I think all of that put together. This is fascinating to me. Joe: And you've already proven the concept. So you would think that, I guess that would be the most frustrating part for me is that you've already proof of concept been done. It's how many years is the program now been in running. Richard: It's officially 12, I guess. Joe: Because of the CMAS program is 12 years, is it, is it, you're in the program from what? What year of high school. To. Richard: So well, and this is becoming an issue, too, it's always been open from freshmen through senior. Joe: Ok. And is it you're either in it or you're not? Or is there tracks that you can say, I'm interested in the sound recording track. But I'm not Richard: Ok, Joe: Interested Richard: So, Joe: In the songwriting Richard: Yeah. Joe: Tracks. Richard: As he was saying, so I'm going to take the this new engineering, in the traditional word of the word engineering, I'm going to set that aside, because that's where that's going to take some years to develop. Richard: So I'm going Joe: Right. Richard: To set that aside. But as far as the rest goes. Basically, it's what's your interest? I want to be in it, I want to I want to do sound engineering. I want to be a producer. I want to be on the stage as the performer. I want to be a beat maker. You name it and again, I, I, I want to promote the shows. I want to make the music videos, whatever. OK. Everybody's gonna go, there's like some core things, I need everybody to understand the basics of how this microphone works that I'm talking. I need the basics of why your headphones need to go into an interface and what that interface does. I need you to understand the stuff on the walls here, why it does what it does and why it's actually not gonna soundproof the roomm, it's only treating the roo

Part 1 - A Conversation with Richard Maxwell

Play Episode Listen Later May 27, 2020 76:35

Richard Maxwell has created and runs one of the most unique and inspiring creative musical arts and sciences program in the nation. For me, it reminds me of the entry level sound recording program I went through in college, only Richard's students get into the creative process early because of what he had the guts to create. This program happens in an area of the school campus where they have their own section of rooms that is their facility. It's made up of a larger classroom if you will that doubles as a performance room plus they have 15 Pro Tools stations and Pro Tools running in their A and B recording studios. They learn how to be expressive without fear of judgement, they write songs, they mutually assist and critique each others work in a helpful, loving way and it's magical to see what happens on a daily basis. Richard is a loving, caring person who, by his own efforts and fortitude, has created a platform where he can give the students, his very best in regards to guidance, ideas and processes.If you love music, talking about music, the process of making music, what music looks like in today's world, interested in how music could be handled in schools or always wondered how a single person can make a huge change in our education system, these episodes split into Part 1 and Part 2, are for you! Enjoy, share and spread the musical love. Richard Maxwell's Links: Richard's Website: https://sites.google.com/view/richardmaxwell CMAS Program: https://sites.google.com/view/arcadiacmas YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/RichardMaxwellMusic/videos Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/richard.maxwell.3538 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/rchrdmxwll/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/rchrdmxwll LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-maxwell-235ab513/ https://youtu.be/KPMuQNW9GL4 ********** Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass/ ********** If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#thejoecostelloshow Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world.For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#thejoecostelloshow Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to https://joecostelloglobal.com/#thejoecostelloshow Follow Joe: Twitter: https://twitter.com/jcostelloglobal Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jcostelloglobal/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jcostelloglobal/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUZsrJsf8-1dS6ddAa9Sr1Q?view_as=subscriber Transcript Part 1 – Richard Maxwell Interview: Joe: Hey, Richard, great to have you, man. I'm glad you could come on the show. And as you know, I'm a huge fan and when I reached out, I figured, you know, while we're all in this COVID-19 thing, you aren't quite as busy as you usually are. So I'm glad Richard: Different Joe: I was able to Richard: And Joe: Get you in here. Richard: Different, busy? No, I'm I'm I am as I'm I'm as big of a fan of yours as you are always so kind to me as well. So Joe: I Richard: I think Joe: Appreciate Richard: A Joe: It. Richard: Mutual admiration society. But that's Joe: Awesome. Richard: A Joe: Yeah. Richard: That's a good thing. I'm flattered to be here. Joe: So I know just from my own personal experience with you that you are a multi instrumentalist because I know that you and I have a kinship with drums for sure. Richard: Yes, we do. Joe: But that's pretty much where my talent starts and stops. And then you go on to songwriting and playing guitar. And I'm sure you play the keys. Richard: Yeah, but. Joe: So. Richard: Yeah. But to be fair, your skill you have in, like your little finger in drums eclipses my entire rhythmic independence and abilities beyond belief. Joe: Now that you talk about being too kind, that's too kind. Right. Richard: Well, no. I mean, you are a masterful musician in your own right. Absolutely. Joe: Well, Richard: I am Joe: Thank you. Richard: A jack of all trades, master of none in some ways. But I think that I mean, for what it's worth, the multi instrumentalist thing is partially due to the control freak nature of my personality, I think. I've had time to analyze this over the years and some of that I'd like you know, I'd like to be able to sort of be like, yes, I love playing all these instruments and I do. But some of it is because somewhere along the line, it was hard to find people that I felt like I could say, hey, let's do it this way, you know, and some of that was because I was probably not probably I was really difficult to work with. I think myself. So I started just kind of trying to figure out ways to do it on my own. On the other hand, you do learn a lot when you explore other instruments. So there's a lot of instruments that I will pick up and play badly just for the sort of joy of seeing what it does. What's that? But I like that. I think I think I think musically, there's something about process for me. You know, I'm I'm at an age where, you know, there's a lot of "what ifs" in my life and in my career musically. So now, you know, it's interesting because, like, I think you're, you're in, you're at a point in your thirties where you like all of those things are sort of like, oh, man, if only I had. If only I had. And then, weirdly enough, you get to a point where you're like, wait a minute, I actually now this actually means like artistic freedom. Which has been fascinating for me, and I know we also want to talk about, you know, the program at the school and stuff, but it sort of relates to it like, like you start to realize, like sometimes that's actually more valuable. Like there's a ya know, there obviously we all want to be Springsteen or Taylor Swift or whoever is that, you know, that that A-list group. Of course. I mean, who wouldn't want Joe: Yeah. Richard: That lifestyle and and those opportunities and I think that anybody who says they don't, is probably not being entirely honest. On the other hand, you know, I remember, I've been biking through this COVID stuff as much as I can so I, I have one ear with a couple different podcasts that I listen to and when John Prine died, when and if you know who he was or Joe: Yeah, Richard: Not, is Joe: Absolutely. Richard: Really a brilliant songwriter. So there was this one podcast that was talking about him that had said something that just stuck with me. I was never a huge John Prine fan. I mean, I respected the guy, but they were saying how he looked at his career and at one point, the fact that he never had, like, that top 10 smash hit was a detriment. But then the music critic who, who's pretty, pretty brilliant guy, he goes, yeah, but on the other hand, when you talk to people about his entire catalog, everybody's like, yeah, but everything's brilliant and not having that hit, like, he wasn't identified by a particular sound or of particular time and he could always kind of do what he artistically wanted. I've become more fascinated by, by that than, than anything else. And I talk a lot about that with my students, you know, in their process to like, you know, that thing that you love is wonderful. But what's like, what's the step before and maybe what's the step after? And are you and frankly, are you allowed to even take it? You know, we get very critical of artists and what we see on TV and on, you know, any video and YouTube now and everything else, but sometimes I wonder, you know, man, it's that the pressure to sustain that, whatever that thing is for them. I don't know. I know it sounds weird to maybe people would say, oh, he's just copping out for whatever. I don't know if I'd want it at this point in my life. Joe: Yes Richard: You don't. I mean. Joe: That's funny because I've had the same conversation with myself. I totally in my heart and in my soul and to be truthful to myself, that's all I ever wanted. And then it took me until I don't think it was that long ago that I actually was able to look myself in the mirror and go, you just didn't put in the work. You didn't put in that extra thing to allow yourself to rise above to be noticed. It just, it didn't and I know that, you know, I just I just never went that last whatever it was Richard: Sure. Joe: To get Richard: But then, Joe: It done. Richard: On the other hand, you know that what's the cliche about, you know, one. One door opens and another and one closes and another opens. I mean, you just you know, I've come to realize that. That that. Things happen for a reason like, like, you know, along the lines of what you're talking about. So, like, I never took the risk to, like, go out to, I've been to L.A. enough times that I kind of have a love hate relationship with that city in some respect, I think, like everybody does. And places that nature in terms of the industry. But I never when I was in my early 20s, you know, I didn't do the stereotype I wanted to but the thing of it is, is that I know now, looking back, if I'm like you're saying, being truly honest with yourself, I'm truly honest with myself, I know for a fact that if I had gone out and done that, then, it wouldn't, I would have, I would have destroyed myself, probably like I wasn't going to hit it, like it wasn't going to happen then. It Joe: That's Richard: Just Joe: Interesting. Richard: It just wasn't I wasn't ready. Joe: The. Richard: I wasn't you know, I am a very slow process learner. It takes me a long time. I guess I'm not OK with it, you know? I mean, I'm sitting in this, you know, not to sound funny, but on the other hand, I'm this is everyday for me where I am right now. Like, Joe: Right. Richard: This is you know, I was I was in a position we were able to get a house built. And it's not like it's that fancy. And I'm not going to show you. I could show you what I'm looking at out my window. But like, if you saw like, there's just gear and stuff everywhere, it's a mess in the studio. But the fact that I'm able to sit in a studio every day, I have opportunities where I can make music on my own terms. You know, I'm thinking about everybody I grew up with and stuff like that, that's, that's not so bad. You know, I mean, I'm not like like taking a, like, sort of second place on that either, I mean, you know, I have I have friends, I have students who tour, former students who tour all over the world now. And I'm so proud of them. And it but it's brutal, I mean, it's just I mean, not even I'm not even talking about, like, the COVID stuff. I mean, just that lifestyle in general and trying to maintain that, I mean, it, it I did I did some of that, you know, like one hundred years ago. But, you know, it's I guess, I guess maybe I feel lucky we live in a time where I can feel fulfilled in some ways. Joe: Yeah, yeah, and it's so funny because I just the last guests that I had on it, we actually talked for two and a half hours and I won't do that to you. And it was I'm going to actually blame it on him because he's such a great storyteller. But I had Nate Morton on who is the drummer for The Voice, and him and I have become good friends over the past few years. And, you know, we went through his early childhood then, you know, going to engineering school, of all things, and quitting it because it was he knew it wasn't in his heart. Going to Berklee and then the connection that I'm making here was you talking about L.A., is he said that I knew I had to go where the gigs were of of the caliber that I wanted. I know I could have stayed in Boston, but I wanted to play on a hit TV show or I wanted to tour with the best of the best. And so he said, I just knew that that's the only move that I had with the two things that he he points out the two biggest things, decisions he's ever made in his life, even to this day was, number one, going to Berklee and number two, going to L.A. And without those combination of those two things, you wouldn't be where he is today. Richard: Sure, sure, Which Joe: So, Richard: Totally makes sense. Joe: Yeah. Richard: Which makes sense and for everybody, you know, and you've got to find your place in it. I don't know. Who knows? I mean, we're not that old. You never know. It's, I mean, to me, mean and the industry is different now. And there's, you know. I mean, because I work obviously I work with a lot of teenagers and a lot of 20 somethings and they're all and they're wonderful. But it is interesting how, like, you really can almost you can almost like feel the sort of like flash in the pan kind of vibe of whatever they're, they're currently into. Joe: Yeah. Richard: Which I don't see that as a criticism. I just mean, you know. Sometimes you, you know, I wonder, like, yhere are certain artists or certain bands and, you know, they used to get like, you know, the joke was like the oldies circuit kind of thing. But at the same time, you look at what those musicians are doing and there's something about the fact that they're that they're playing like, like I feel like that state, even with all the technology and I am a technology guy, let's not kid ourselves. Joe: Right. Richard: At the end of the day, it can't be about the technology. And I feel like there's something, you know, like. And I know they have all kinds of ups and downs with personnel and issues of personality. But like journey of all the, you know, sort of like stereotypical cliche kind of bands in a way. But it is interesting to me that decades on, when you see them play they're play like they're actually are playing Joe: All right. Richard: Late. And I think that's the right partially think that that's a big part of the reason I think that people go and see the Rolling Stones play. Because they're playing like like it's not tracks, it's not you don't you know, you don't go into their show going, well, they're going to produce it this way or produce it that way. And I don't think that has so much to do with age. I think that has to do with approach. I've become a big fan of all crazy things. I tell my students I always find this funny. I found myself a few years ago and I couldn't figure out what it was. At first I would I would be in here like in the studio and just kind of like I'd be doing like paperwork or like just whatever, like just I wasn't working on something, but I'd want happened in the background and I would find myself streaming from YouTube, live bluegrass. And I could not for the life of me, I don't like, I'm not like a country guy, I don't, what in the world is happening? You know, that's like my having, like, some sort of, like, long, weird dystopian out of body midlife musical crisis... Richard: I mean, like because I mean, I was, you know, my first musical love was classical and in prog rock. And then I got into rock and anything else. So like bluegrass is is just. We're, we're, we're moving on in a chain that was so bizarre and then I finally figured it out and it was because it was pure, like it's a bunch of guys and girls sitting with acoustic instruments, basically, and they have to play them. The instrument has to respond. You don't get the benefit of, you know, all the other stuff if you don't do it, it doesn't happen. And I have that has become incredibly compelling for me. And now so I've been spending years and I don't know if you want to get into this part of it or not. But I've been spending years trying to figure out a way to marry the two. How can you like my big thing right now is. How do you take like I love loopers, for example? The textures you can create. I really dislike the lack of in the moment control you have, though, with a looper, because once you do a loop, you're basically stuck with it. Joe: Right. Richard: You know, you can stop it. You can start it and sign. But in real time, I want to sit down like, like when you sit down behind a kit, you know, I want the high hat to respond as I'm playing it, not in some prefabricated way that I can no longer alter in any way. So I've been working on trying to figure out a way to play with all of the layers, but have them respond to me like I was sitting down behind the kit and doing it organically or at a piano or on a guitar or just, you know, a kazoo. I don't care what the instrument is but the idea that it responds immediately to me, that's a more interesting use of all of this. So anyway. Joe: What are you doing? Yeah. Not to go too far because we know, but it's interesting now, what are you doing to do that? Richard: So a lot of it has to do with um, figuring out ways to like, look what makes up the layer that you need. Do you know what I mean? So like like a loop for me, when I was like, you know, you there's there's people that are brilliant data. I mean, and that's the other thing, too. You know, you're you know, Ed Sheeran is a brilliant songwriter. He is gifted on so many levels and he's kind of perfected the looping thing. You know, Tash Sultana, I don't know who she is or not. Joe: I don't Richard: You should definitely look her up. She Joe: Work. Richard: Is. Oh, my gosh. She is about the most organic looper I've ever seen in my life to the point where you can tell that something glitched or made a mistake. And it's like she does it, it doesn't stop. She's so in the moment about the music she's making and it's it's just frickin' brilliant. It's unbelievable. But the point is, is that, you know, you start to look at all these textures and you start to see some commonalities. And then funny enough, I, I started looking at, well, what do I really need? Like like when when I when a singer songwriter starts a loop performance, a lot of times, you know, they start with like a drumbeat kind of thing, right? And, you know, they've got their acoustic guitar and they're doing all kinds of stuff. And there's not I mean, it's cool. But then it's like, well, what is that really about? You know? And so I had gotten really heavy into Mumford and Sons, of all things. And I'm watching Marcus Mumford, especially when it's just the four guys. Sorry, four guys [shows fingers]. And, you know, and the and he's doing you know, he's just got that kick drum and he's got that weird little pedal mechanism for the tambourine. But it's essentially he's doing all that momentum off of a kick drum. And because it's so well played organically, you can hear the rest of the drumkit, but you don't actually need it. I know for a fact that you in studio work because, you know, I've talked about this. You have a less is more kind of approach. You know, you don't have to you know, don't get me wrong, we're all fans of Neil Peart. I mean, Joe: Yes. Richard: You know, God rest his soul. The man was a genius on so many levels, but we're not gonna be able to pull that off. Like, I mean, he he could he could fill the space and you didn't go "Well, that was gratuitous." Joe: Yeah. Richard: You know, that's a I mean, you know, he's like he's not the only drummer. I think that could really get away with that consistently. Simon Phillips may be another one. But that's just and that's just just my opinion. But my point being, what I've basically been doing is I'm looking at the layers of what can you actually do and then essentially it's a variation on voice splitting. So if I take a tone and I branch it out and I noodle with it and essentially process it in a certain way, you don't necessarily know what it is that I'm playing from. But then it goes even further, and I promise we won't stay too long on this. But just because this is where my brain goes, Joe: That's right. Richard: Still, I had developed this hole and there's some video and stuff you can I mean, I'll send you some links and stuff of early, like prototypes of what I was doing and it's fun. But it's are real, first, I was a real pain to get a song prepped. Like the irony of the amount of time it would take me to get a song prep so that it could feel natural and organic was just like killing me. Like it, it became so creatively so, so I went back, I've gone back and I've read redressed it. And the crazy thing is, is so I started looking at instead of for the drum kit, I started looking at the relationship between the kick drum and the bass drum. And part of that was because at one point years ago, I had developed this really cool way to simulate what sounded like drums off of an acoustic guitar without having to play it as a loop like it was coming essentially off the strings, believe it or not. And it sounded really cool. And then I would do like some coffeehouse gigs or some, you know, whatever, some small shows and things, theater kind of gigs and stuff. And I realized that people like if they knew what I was doing, they'd be all over it. But just as a listener, it was like, oh yeah, he's got backing tracks. An I'm like, no wait, you've missed the whole point. And then I realize. And then. And then you like and I know, you know, you perform all the time. You can't really blame your audience if they if they don't get what you're doing, that's on you. You know, there's only so far you can go. Oh yeah. They didn't understand like Joe: Right. Richard: I mean, it's just, you Joe: Right. Richard: Know, you can't play that game successfully. I don't think anybody can. So I've gone back now and I've started to look at what really is required for momentum. And can I treat like for some reason, hearing a bass line off of a guitar? We'll make that jump. I'm still trying to figure out how far do I go with the actual percussion sounds and things, but that's also to me, part of it is I'm a big process guy. I come back to that all the time. This, to me is fascinating. I've been playing with this concept since before my oldest son was born. And I'm really, really freakin old. It's been a long time, Joe: No, Richard: But Joe: I Richard: I. Joe: Really friggin old. Richard: Fair enough... Joe: I Richard: Off. Joe: Don't. Richard: Fair enough, now you're not. And it's just a number anyway, Joe: Right. Richard: Even if you were. And even if I was. No. But seriously, you know, to me, it's the process. I think that. That's the fascinating part. I am reminded Mick Jagger has been asked how many times what you know, "How do you write a hit song?" And I love his response in certain in one interview. He's like, "I don't know and as soon as I figure it out, I'm probably done." Joe: Yeah, Richard: Like, I don't want to know Joe: Yeah, it's interesting. Richard: Why it looked like it. It kind of ruins the magic of it. Joe: Right. Richard: I think there's great merit in, you know, I think art in all of its forms. And for me, it's music is its own, kind of like its own living, breathing entity. And you communicate with it. And, you know, if you if it's if you're working with it collaboratively, it's there's some way, you know, these amazing things will happen. And if you piss it off, it's like it takes its toys and goes home and then you're stuck. And I don't know what to do anymore. I mean, that's but that's that's literally my my thing. Which maybe I don't like I said, I can talk for like I went two and a half hours. I can so beat that Joe. I have. Oh my gosh. I love Joe: So Richard: The sound of my own voice. Joe: That Richard: I'm not going do that. I won't do that to you. Joe: No. Richard: But I know what it's like about the program. Joe: Well, no but, but because we talked about a couple of things here, I'm just going to put. Just add my own two cents based on, you know, the whole looping thing for me. I also love and I'm enamored when I watch it done. The problem that I have when it's in a live situation and I deal with it with the people that, you know, my other persona is being the owner of Onstage Entertainment, right? So booking a lot of entertainment in here in both Arizona and Colorado. I, I have to ask some of them that, OK, I don't mind you looping, but you have to get into the song within the first, like, minute to loop the layer, you know, the layers. And there's I don't know, I don't loop I mean, I don't do it. So I don't, I can't tell them what to do and I can't feel their pain. But if you're going to do it, you got to be quick at it and you got to figure out how to get into the song quickly because people whose interest it just. Richard: Well, you're not wrong. I mean, that's the other thing. I mean, you know, mostly, you know, you do the looping thing and it's like the first time, the first song. That's really a two and a half minute song that takes you 12 minutes to perform. And the audience is like, okay, that was cool. Three songs in and I can tell you this from experience. Some of this is because I don't have the gift that certain people do for looping, which is probably why I gave up on looping in some respects, and now but now I mean, like again a door closes. This is so much more creatively interesting for me. But, you know, three or four songs in the audience is always like we've seen this trick before. We know. We know they. They don't know what's gonna happen specifically, but they kind of know where it's headed. And I think some of that's the lack of interaction in all honesty, I think that's why you see some people like, you know, time. But the looping thing I've I. The one thing that fascinates me about Ed Sheeran is genius level songwriter, brilliant performer. Albums sound nothing like the live show albums are basically a band. Then he goes out by himself, which is very fascinating to me, you know, but on the other hand, I kind of respect it because that kind of I absolutely respect it because to me that's using looping in an effective way, using technology in an effective way. But I'm with you. I, I can imagine, you know, that battle. You're right, people don't, but especially, you know, bars and clubs and stuff. There's Joe: Yeah. Richard: Only so they that you can go and. And again, I think one of the things I know I deal with this a lot with my students is, you know, there is a line that you have you have to accept the fact that if you're going to go off on those musical tangents, that may be incredibly invigorating for you personally, you have to be willing to accept the fact that, you know, you may not get all the gigs you want. You know, or you may not get the type of gig that you think you deserve because people are going to you know, if that's you know, if that's not what the listener wants, that's not what the listener wants. And then, then and then that needs to, but that has to be OK, too. I mean, I think, you know, I firmly believe it's kind of like there's two music industries in a way. There's the industry that we see on TV that, you know, is, you know, is is the big influencers and stuff. And the award shows and everything else. And God love him for it. I like I said, I would love to have their problems, but then there's all this other stuff, but isn't going to make it beyond, you know, it's going to play the smaller clubs and it's going to be in in more intimate settings. Richard: But that's OK, you know what I mean? Like, that's OK. And at least now that's when you and I were growing up. You know, we were we were still of the generation where if it did come on the radio, you didn't hear it. You know, or you had to really I mean, I can remember you would spend hours at a record store. Because you couldn't return it. You know, I mean, you really chose carefully, you know, those, those you know that 10 bucks or 20 bucks or whatever it happened to be, you know, before we really got into the whole Napster opens up streaming for us. You know, world. You know, it's a totally different thing in it's interesting talking to my students about that, because some of them... It's that they are still very careful and they'll tell me they're like, my time is valuable to me. And they'll stay, but, but there's still even with them, there's still a sense of acceptable risk. You know, for, whatever, 10 bucks a month or whatever you spend for whatever streaming platform. I mean, that's like, ya know, that's insane to me. Joe: Yeah, Richard: I mean, Joe: Yeah. Richard: That you can get pretty much every recording that exists for 10 bucks a month. Which Joe: Yeah, Richard: Then also Joe: It's. Richard: Begs the begs the question, is it worth being worried about signing the big record deal anyway? Because you're not gonna make any money for it anyway. Maybe just go make what your heart wants you to make artistically. You know, 50 percent of not much. OK, now you are getting that much in the first place. But. Joe: Yeah, yeah, and it's, it's for them, you know, for all of us these days with the streaming part of it, it's like drinking water through a firehose when it comes to the amount of content you can actually take in. Where you? Yeah, and you and I are talking. It's like, yeah. Go to the right. You know, you you mowed for lawns. You have ten bucks to go buy the one album that you've been waiting to get Richard: Exactly. Joe: In. Richard: Exactly, exactly. But Joe: Yeah. Richard: It made it so much more, you know, I cannot remember buying an album and not sitting down and listening to it, track for track, multiple times all the way through. Joe: Reading all the liner notes, Richard: Exactly. Joe: Knowing Richard: Exact. Joe: Everybody who played on it every yeah, Richard: Yep, yep, Joe: Yeah. Richard: Or like I can remember. I can't remember what album it was, but I can remember buying an album, taking it home to listen to and then we like I remember my parents were like, we have we have something to go to in like 20 minutes or something. And I can remember sitting there thinking, ok do I put on listen, like the first two tracks or do I wait till I get homesick and listen to the whole thing? And I waited. You know, because there was something about that experience. And even now I find myself, you know, fast forward and, you know, I mean, it just did it. It's I find myself with some of those bad habits a little bit that I wish I didn't, necessarily...but it is what it is. Joe: Yes. Well, and two other things you touched upon that I know you. You brought it up and it's something that I deal with. But I took a position a long time ago and I started Onstage, that I actually don't hire anyone that runs tracks. And I did it purely for the fact that I didn't want any musicians being put out of work on basically my watch for lack of a better term. Richard: Oh, that's awesome. Joe: So that's just the position I took. And I don't have anything, you know, like there's a like I had a corporate gig. So when I say that, it's really like the local type stuff. So I'm not going to, I'm not going to put a single guy in a resort and put a bass player and drummer out of work because he walks in with bass and drums on tracks and back and backup vocals. And, you know, these other people are sitting home and not working. But the caveat with that is if I there's a corporate band that I hired out of Montreal, Canada, who had amazing tracks that they had built from scratch for themselves. Now, the difference between them is that every single track that they had, there was literally an instrument onstage playing it. So all it was for was for the thickness of the sound. Richard: Sure, sure. Right. Joe: There was literally not one sound on those tracks that did not exist as a human being on the stage. Richard: Right. See, and I think that you're hitting on something to me that's really important, which is intent. Like, I think that gets lost in all of this because we're so we're so caught up in the spectacle. Or the site. You know, I was just at a wedding not too long ago for for one of my nephews and it was interesting because the band, the band was they were good. This is back in Ohio where I grew up, but it was lots of tracks. And it was interesting the way, you know, I'm sitting there picking the thing apart because that's where my head goes. But the rest of my family's just enjoying the sound. You know, almost to the point where, like I've seen deejay's lately, do a thing, oh, sorry, my son's come in and Joe: Hmm Richard: Interrupt Joe: Hmm, hmm, Richard: Here Joe: Hmm, Richard: For a second. Joe: That's Richard: We have Joe: Totally Richard: To Joe: Fine. Richard: Apologize. My apologies, Joe. Joe: No, Richard: That's Joe: It's all Richard: My Joe: Good. Richard: Ex, Gray. He's gone and he's gone in for your drumming job. Joe: All right, perfect. Richard: His no, but I think I'm, you know, like deejay's lately, you see them like they'll travel with a drummer. And I actually think that's a really good thing. You know, it's, it's, it is a little bit in the other direction, because I actually I respect that decision you've made and I actually I did not realize that that's awesome. And I think, I think the world of professional musicians would be better off if more of the owners of these companies, such as yourself, took a stance like you do. But on the other hand, you come from this as a player. So you have a you know, I think some of this is, you know, that battle. You know what that's, you understand on a different level. And nothing against promoters, managers and anybody else out there but a lot of them don't. Is my as a you know, they're well-meaning, but they don't you know, they don't get it. You know. Joe: Yeah, we've talked about this a lot. You know that the success of what happened with my booking agency is the fact that I take the position and I also have the business acumen part of it. So I'm kind of a hybrid in a way where I can understand what I have to deliver to the end client and how professional all of that has to be and at the same time, I have to put my self in the position of the performers or performer, either one. And that, you know, when it's really hot outside, they need shade and if it's too hot, it's just impossible to perform outside in Arizona. And yet, because we live in Arizona and it's the desert, you know what? It gets freaking cold in the wintertime. So, and the fact that other than a singer who then has to worry about catching some sort of cold or bronchitis or something, that all the musicians use their fingers and as soon as your fingers freeze up, the performance goes downhill and everyone's upset and it just doesn't make for a good... So in our contracts, it's very in-depth about, you know, needing shade and needing heaters in the winter and then if it's too hot or too cold, that has to be moved inside. And we, had ad nauseum, I could talk about all Richard: No, Joe: This, Richard: Of course. Joe: You know, circumstances, but that's the approach that I took. Richard: But it's interesting, too, because like as you're as you're describing all of us, I keep coming to the word legacy like like like your own sort of personal legacy and all of this like, you know, and I've known you now for years. So I kind of I feel like I, I. I can say this maybe with a little bit of insight, if you like. I know you to be like you need to be able to sleep at night like you don't like it. But that's important. Like, look, I know that, you know, some of that's just because you couldn't send somebody on a gig that you yourself wouldn't feel comfortable taking, which I think is important, because, again, I think, you know, again, I deal with a lot of younger musicians, you know, a lot of teenagers, lot of 20 somethings with, you know, with the the college stuff folks that I work with, too. And, you know, you do have to kind of be aware, you know, the pay to play thing that goes on a lot. I see a lot of younger musicians that get really excited over gonna get this gig at blah blah, blah, blah plays. That's awesome! Can you buy a ticket? Because we have to sell 200 of them Joe: Yeah, Richard: To get Joe: Yeah. Richard: The opening spot. I'm thinking to myself, I know I get it. I mean, I you know, I understand there are costs and everybody needs to be able to make a living and provide for themselves and their families. And I really do understand that. But it's, there's something off putting about like, like to me, I feel like art's disposable enough, like it's treated almost like a fast food meal sometimes that, that going into that world, I don't know. I just, I just feel like, you know, one of the things I'm always telling kids is, you know. To me and this is this has always been my approach, and if I ever decide that I want to get myself out of this studio environment here where I noodle around, which I might, you know, in my midlife extended crisis of who knows what the heck's going on right now. I actually had plans and then the COVID thing kind of hit. But that's a separate conversation, I suppose. But no, but to think about, you know. We look at gigs, I think, especially younger musicians, they look at gigs in this context of, I have to get the gig for the exposure and the, quote, "fame." But I also equally need the money from the gig, and I think that that's in some ways, the problem. Everybody's got to eat, everybody needs to. I get, I understand that. But I do think that when you can eliminate either one or the other from the equation, you actually give yourself more opportunities. Joe: Yeah, it's. Richard: You know, like if you can, you know, and now I realize I'm in a very unique situation. I could take a gig or not just for the joy of the gig. And then one of the reasons why I started to think about I should really start playing out again just for my own sense of self and to noodle around with this not looping looper thing, to be perfectly honest with you in front of people, was because I realized I don't really care if I make any money doing a gig. Of course, I would love to get some cash, you know, some money in my pocket for for for performing. But at the same time, it's like you priority, you know what what matters? And I think that that's part of it, you know, especially now, you know, because there isn't you know, it's really tough. As you know, being a gigging musician is really brutal and obviously right now it's basically impossible, Joe: All right. Richard: You know, with with the situation we're in. But I do think. Like, it's funny, like I've had a lot of conversations with a lot of my, my students about the fact that I know and just a lot of people in general. There are some you know, this is horrible right now. I mean, it just it is devastating the live music industry, which is like, what, eight billion dollars annually or something at a minimum is just devastated right now. And all of the ripple effect of it is, is just it's gutting. But I do think there is also some good possibly to come out of this. The number of people I talk to, younger people that are so excited at the notion of when I can go see another show, like the appreciation for it. You know, like when you're younger and like you can go to any show you want, anytime you want, basically because you've got all your income is basically disposable and, you know, whatever else or even if it's not but you can you can seriously prioritize it. You know, you not to worry about house and car and bubble on food. And I know some kids do, I'm, I'm speaking generalities, but just in general. Joe: Yeah. Richard: When that's been removed now. It is so interesting, the number of conversations I've had with kids that are like, WOW!, I'm just so appreciative of when I'll be able to do that again. Or, or the realization that that because we would we talk about it all the time and might within my classes, like, OK, you go to that show. I don't care what show it is. That person onstage, even if it's a soloist, isn't the only person involved in you seeing that show. They just aren't. There's no circumstance where it's just them. And you start to really now understand how it all changes, you know? You know, or not changes but how, I mean, it's gone right now, you know, and they're talking about 2021 before major tours happen again, major festivals and things like that. I want to get all the pressing and down on stuff. But but Joe: Oh, Richard: I think. But I mean, it's like you don't already know this. I'm sure you. Joe: I have. I have tickets to see the Doobie Brothers and the Eagles. Yeah. And and that the Eagles, I think, was supposed to happen in April. That's been delayed, I think, until October or December and you know, there's a good chance they're all going to be moved until 2021 to just Richard: Yeah, Joe: Me. Richard: It. Joe: No one's gonna want to go to a concert and sit, you know, six feet apart from the person they went with and sit, you know, have every other row with someone, it's just it would be weird Richard: Well, and Joe: Because. Richard: Not to even some more paranoid, but like I've been reading about different things about like I guess they did a study recently about that choir that had that rehearsal before anybody realized it was a pandemic. But then like 40 out of the 60 people that were in the choir wound up getting tested. They're testing positive. Joe: Oh, wow. Richard: And they you know, I mean, it's a horrible tragedy, I think like two or three of them passed away from it and the whole circumstance was awful and they were going off of all the information they had, which at the time was nothing. And I mean, the whole thing is a terrible tragedy. But out of that, they recreated the circumstances. They obviously didn't infect people again, but they started to look at how singing and things of that nature, what it does to the transmission of a disease, you know, of a virus of this nature and then you think about people that like an event where they're shouting or screaming or singing along and all this other stuff. And you just think to yourself, you know, how is this going to look? Joe: Yeah. Richard: You know what we know? I don't know. It's it's, a it's an interesting. If it wasn't so devastating to the to people that I personally know and just to the industry that I'm aware of and the ripple effects of all of that, it would be just fascinating. But instead, it's just I mean, it's just. Joe: Yes. Richard: It is really. It just makes me really sad and I'm really grateful, like I feel weird sitting in a studio talking to you right now because I feel like almost like I'm, I'm unintentionally flexing and I don't mean to be. It's just, you know. I never thought my life musically would be in a place where I could feel musically secure more than most musicians out there in the world. That is such a bizarre moment of clarity for me. I almost feel obligated to be making more music right now. Not because anybody needs to hear it or that it'll be any good, but almost because I feel like if I don't, I'm being incredibly selfish, that I have the option to do it and I'm not Joe: Right. Richard: Taking advantage of it. Joe: A. Richard: I feel like, you know. You can believe this, but I feel like I would just do like such an ass, like if Joe: Now I get it. Richard: I feel like, I feel like I believe in karma. And I just, I just feel like I have I have an obligation, especially I'm about to head into summer, which changes up my teaching obligations and my, you know, Joe: Yes. Richard: Obligations of that nature. And running the studios are going to be very different for the foreseeable future, at least. Joe: Yes. Richard: Wrote Joe: And it's then Richard: permanent excuse Joe: It's like, no, yeah. No. And I get it. And it's in a lot of our talent is struggling. You know, that that I personally know and had, had helped to get a fair amount of work that they, you know, at times where they don't have work and they're struggling just to put food on the table and pay their car payment, keep a roof over their head. They now are sort of forced into possibly going into debt to buy a webcam and a microphone and and learn, you know, some sort of software if need be, or if they just end up going live on Zoom or Facebook or any of the streaming platforms. But, you know, they're putting in there they're Venmo and PayPal handles as a virtual tip jar just to try to make any sort of money. Richard: Yeah, anything is Joe: And Richard: Anything. Joe: Yeah, Richard: Mm Joe: And Richard: Hmm. Joe: It's it's really tough. So, yeah, I keep brainstorming on ways to try to figure out a way to help. And I haven't come up with it yet. I but I'm working on it. It's not like I'm sitting here, I'm not you know, I'm lucky enough that I had a business where because at one point I was the seven day week musician, you know, I was playing, you remember, and Richard: I do. Joe: That's all I Richard: I Joe: Did Richard: Do. Yeah. Joe: Before. Richard: Yeah. You were impossible to get a hold of because it would always be like a message back, like dude I'll call you later, I'm on, I'm like, you know, 17 gigs today. Joe: Yeah, right. Yeah. But so I get it. Again, we go back to. I've I've lived it and I understand where it's all coming from. Now I just have to figure a way to help and so that's a struggle for me. But that's that's a whole like you said, it's a whole different conversation. And the one last piece that you touched upon that I don't want to forget is that in the conversation I had with Nate Morton, the drummer from The Voice, there's a connector in L.A. that you may or may not have heard of that that I knew when I wanted to, you know, possibly get a tour. A guy named Barry Squire and Barry is basically the music matchmaker out there. So if Cher is looking for a band, Barry will put out the notice that Cher is about to go on tour and they need this, this and this. Same thing with Pink or any of those, Barry was the guy to basically piece these bands together in L.A. for these big tours. Richard: Interesting, Joe: And Richard: I did. Joe: And so now the listing and Barry puts these listings up now on, on Facebook and it's obviously become a lot easier as part of the discussion I had with Nate, where it used to be, hey, you go to this executive's office and you pick up a C.D. or tape, you learn these three songs on it, you come to this studio/soundstage on the Saturday at 1:00, you play the songs and we'll let you know kind of thing. Now, Barry posts these things on Facebook and its he post the requirements. And, you know, everyone has to be pretty much for the most part, 25 or younger, you know, there's there's no none of these things that are going to take all these old dudes like us out on tour. Richard: Right. Joe: Her Richard: Right Joe: Or me Richard: Now, of course. Joe: Anyhow. Richard: No, no, no, no, no, I'm right there with you. I'm Joe: But Richard: With you. Joe: But the instead of it being the old style that you and I are used to, which is, you know, bass, drums, maybe two guitars, keys and a couple of back, backup singers or maybe a horn section. Now it's guitar, drums and a multi instrumentalist that knows Ableton. So it's, it's that and Barry and Nate were talking, they went to lunch a few weeks ago. They'll always be a drummer because the visual part of it, of of that makes it look like it's a band. So that that one seat, you know, thankfully, has not been necessary, eliminated as much as the others. But it's just so weird and Nate and I were talking was like, I mean, I know I, I don't know Ableton anywhere near that I could say I could do it to go get a gig and neither does Nate. But that's the state of things right now. And then, and then Nate's talking and he's like, and if the band becomes, you know, popular and there's more money in the budget, they don't turn around and then start adding bass and guitar and keys that they add more production, they add dancers, they are they whatever. It's just it's so weird to me. Richard: Well, yes, the idea of a show, it's different, you know. That's why, that's why it still comes back to me of this idea of playing. And I think that, I don't know, Like like, do you still sit down to play just for the joy of playing? Joe: I, I do here and there, but nowhere near as much as I should. Richard: Well, nobody ever does that as much as they should. Joe: Yeah. And it's like we Richard: But. Joe: Played a gig last Wednesday and we played out in the parking lot at an assisted living complex for Richard: Oh, Joe: The Richard: Cool. Joe: For the residents because these elderly people had not been out of this place for the last two months or whatever. Richard: Oh, Joe: They're Richard: My Joe: Just Richard: Gosh. Joe: Going stir crazy. Richard: Sure, Joe: So Richard: Sure. Joe: There was four different jazz combos and we were setup out in the parking lot where the people could come out on their balconies and Richard: Oh, Joe: We played to Richard: How Joe: Them. Richard: Cool. Joe: Yeah, it was fun and it was cool. And at the end, like all the guys in the band are like, God, I so misplaying, like I just the hell with practicing, I just want to play because there's that interaction on stage and anticipating where that that other player is going to next and just being able to interact and lock in with somebody. And because I left the gig going I really got to practice. And everybody's like, no, we're just gotta play, we just it's more fun just playing. So, Richard: Yeah, yeah, Joe: Yeah. Richard: And that's I think that I think there's something about that visceral live element. You know, Joe: Yeah. Richard: We it's funny when, when when, when the COVID shut down happened, it sort of sent obviously a lot of chaos into the whole educational system, especially into arts education, which regardless of titles and everything else, I am basically running an arts program. You know, call it what you want, but it's an arts program. And it's been it was interesting what wound up happening very much and that's why I truly thought I'm going to get all these kids that are just going to send me you know, here's this recording I worked on at home, here's this work and I've got a lot of those. I mean, that's. And it's great. But the lot of them, first of all, a lot of them, you know, you started to really see the demographic of the students and who had what available to them. Joe: Yeah, Richard: Lots of posturing and Joe: Yeah. Richard: In high school certainly about that and that's fine. But I don't begrudge because any we've distributed gear as much as possible in that. But it was, you know, was interesting how a lot of them really enjoyed the live streams we did more than anything else. So we wound up doing our big annual end of year concert anyway. But we did it online on Zoom. It was clunky we were subjected to all kinds of elements related to streaming and what mics they had and Wi-Fi connectivity and everything else and yet in the moment, the fact that it wasn't taped, that we, you know, like Joe: Yeah. Richard: I had some kids that played some sessions, that we just kind of watch the sessions on the screen, which was still cool and it was really awesome. I had one group that actually did go in and they pre-recorded their parts and filmed themselves while they did it and then we spliced it together into kind of like a live video and and whatnot. But most of it was a kid with their guitar, at the piano or whatever it happened to be singing. You know, in some cases it was just through their phone and imperfect, absolutely! But, it it had that kind of because you knew it was right then. And there wasn't a well, we're going to go back and fix it in post kind of option. It was interesting that, that, you know, you still got a little bit of that same charge. I mean, it was different because obviously you don't get the you know, you don't hear the applause in the same Joe: Yeah, Richard: Way that you're hopefully Joe: Yeah. Richard: Getting you know, there wasn't really production in terms of lights and stuff that we normally would do. But, you know, because I asked a lot of them, you know, should we be prerecording this and some of them are like, yeah, that would be better for me. But that was because of nervousness that they always have had inherently. You know, these are kids that don't like to get up on stage, even though they're wonderfully talented. They just may be, you know, at that age, they're, they're they get freaked out by it or whatever. But the vast majority wanted it live and in the moment, warts and all. And I found that to be very fascinating. Joe: Yeah, Richard: And Joe: That's cool. Richard: We wound up, you know. We did a tie. I think we did. I think we did like seven or eight live broadcast. We're still doing them. We've done a bunch of podcasts, but it's been interesting watching the students. Their response, and maybe it's not an entirely, like I'd like, I don't think that I can, I always look at my own students and I go, I probably shouldn't be lumping you in with every other teenager is like a generality because they tend to be a little bit of a unique and and if we're being honest, I probably do have a bit of an influence on their approach Joe: Right. Richard: In that regard. Joe: Yeah. Richard: Hopefully a good way. But I do think it's interesting, like what you're saying, that there's something about a live response, even if it's remote, even if it's from streaming, it still beats the just watching video. Joe: Yeah, Richard: There's something. And organic and visceral about it. Joe: Yep. Richard: Which is Joe: All Richard: Important. Joe: Right, well, you know, since we are now, you know, sort of talking about the graduation piece, I wanted to...so I always refer to it as CMAS and I think that's probably what most of you do. But it's Creative Musical Arts and Science program, correct? OK, So this is happening at Arcadia High School here in, are we, this is considered Phoenix. You're right down the street from me, right? So it's Phoenix. Richard: Yes, well, I'm yeah. Joe: The border is. I don't know. Richard: Yeah, it's Scottsdale Unified School District, but it's technically in greater Phoenix we're like I want to say, what's 48 Street and Indian School and what is it? 56th is the line into Scottsdale. Joe: Ok. Richard: I don't actually know. I mean, I've been at that school for, gosh, 20 plus years, if you can believe that...long time. Joe: Yeah. Richard: I don't know. I was long before my time how they managed to carve out that section of, you know why it's Scottsdale and not in Phoenix Union, I don't know. Joe: All right. OK. So you just mentioned 20 some years ago, so when did you get to this school? Richard: Ok, so let me see. How do I explain this? 1990 or something so I'm at the U Of A Joe: Ok. Richard: I have finished my second master's degree in orchestral conducting, which I still miss, I, you know, if only for not having enough time in the day. Basically, I start working in Tucson at one of the high schools and a middle school, I've got an orchestra program that I love. I am always still for years and years and when I did it, I grew up in the Midwest. So as an undergrad and as a grad student and at different times and in different places, I was always gigging as a very mediocre drummer. I like to say I was, I was sort of the, the, would you want to call it? I brought the game down for everybody else, But um..but, you know, and so I done some touring, nothing, nothing fancy. So but I had done a lot of it, I loved the studio experience and also their stuff. But there was no at the time at least available to me, you only were really able to do that kind of independently and on your own. And there was very much this sense of, you know, we were we were talking before about two different music industries well, there were sort of like two different musical experiences. You had the experience you could have as a student. I mean, you know, you know, it was one thing and there were in it, it was great. I mean, don't get me wrong, I have such fond memories of growing up. And I still every now and then I am lucky enough, I guess. I've talked to my old high school band director a few times, he's long since retired. He drives trains now, of all things Joe: Wow. Richard: Which he just loves. Old, old military, retired guy, sweetheart of a guy, brilliant musician, far more, I didn't realize his musical chops. This is another problem I have like I hadn't like it takes me a while to realize something in the moment. Oh my gosh. The level of lost opportunity on my count two, like not tap into more of his experience as he came out of a military band experience but he had this incredibly open view of what music was for, even if he had a particular love of a certain style and what not. But I'm I've Joe: Wait, Richard: Got this. Joe: Before before you leave, that point is just amazing that you just said that because I look at you and go, God, if I only had a band teacher in high school like you. My teacher, and God rest his soul, I think I'm sure he's gone by now but I was just there doing it, collecting the paycheck, Richard: Sure, Joe: Going through the Richard: Sure. Joe: Motions. Just it was just the worst. And. Richard: And it can't. Yeah, I mean, I. I don't know, I can't speak to that. I mean, the educator in me says, you know, at a certain point you can it's very easy to get disenchanted if you get wrapped up in it and you never know. I mean, you know, the further back you go. People that I get asked all the time, you know, did you have something like CMAS when you were in high school or whatever? And I can't tell if they're sometimes I wonder if they're being sarcastic, if they've completely misjudged my age, if, you know, I don't even know where it's coming from. But, but the truth of the matter is, is that it's not a matter of if I did or not, it wasn't even an option. It just literally wasn't a possibility. I can't, I can't fault Pete Metzker was his name, is his name or Jeff Bieler or Bob Wagner. I literally remember all of these people...West Frickey. They were brilliant! They didn't, if they, if you would come to them and said, we have this idea and you described what I built with the CMAS Program, what I designed, honestly, I think they would have been like, OK, that's really cool! We can't, like we, if we could figure out how to do that in the architecture or the in, the in, the the infrastructure, if you will, of music education at the time, I really think they probably would have been like, OK, sure! Let's do it! I don't think it was an option. I mean, I really think that, you know, there's a prospective element. I'm not that old but it does remind me a little bit of what I have conversations with students about classical music, for example. And I always tell them the same thing. Richard: You know, you can't, you can't fault Beethoven or Mozart and say you don't like their music because there's no electric guitar. Because there wasn't even electricity at the time. You can't you know, you're missing the whole point. You don't think, like that can't be your thing. In the same way when I have students who are very, very much of a more and this is fine too, but we'll say a more traditional mindset. I'm like, you can't look at a kid who wants to do like turntables and say that's not a legitimate musical instrument. You do it, for the same exact reason because you've got to deal with intent, you just you just have to. And that's the thing that like I said, I look back on those that band director and those teachers, all of them throughout all of my school years, as it were. And Dave Vroman, I mean, I could list all these professors throughout, you know, college that some of which I'm still friends with, which is really wonderful too, you know. Sorry, I, I have to I have to namedrop Molly Slaughter, I don't have anyone to know who she is but just for me, I got to say it karma again, and there's lots of others. Greg Sanders, Steve Heineman I'm gonna shut up now, okay...Ed Kaiser God, we would be here for a long time, but, but all of them would tell you...but, but the thing of his you is the best musicians are about intention. You know, Springsteen walks up onstage with the E Street Band and it's unbelievable and then the band takes a break for a minute and he sits down with just as acoustic guitar and it's unbelievable. Joe: Yeah. Richard: And it's I mean, look, the guy's a genius. And I mean, that's you know, you don't need me to say that. But I think the reason it works in both settings is because of his musical intentions. Joe: Yeah. Richard: It comes out different, of course, it comes out differently when you have more people and you can interact. And again, we go back to that visceral thing, but it's about intent. And I think that's what I've carried with me from all of those people. Joe: Right. Richard: I go on in any case, so I go, I go to Bradley University and become their first music educator, excuse music composition and theory graduate ever out of that university. I don't, I don't know if that's like I have two distinctions being a Bradley, one is I'm the first person ever to receive that degree from that institution, which I'm very proud of and two, I was probably the most arrogant pain in the butt student that's ever been through there in the history of that university's music school. And it was a brilliant place, it was wonderful. They had an old Moog synthesizer, that had been installed by Robert Moog himself. Joe: Oh. Richard: But it unfortunately didn't work. If I could go back now...know, you, you know, you always say if you know, if I knew then what I know now. But they allowed you know, they bought some equipment. We had, you know, an old Mac computer and we were able to do some sequencing and learn some bit. And I just kind of got bit by the bug of it. I just found it so compelling and so interesting. Didn't know what I was doing, had a couple of microphones, couldn't even tell you what they were. Probably a 58, like a beat up condenser, by whom...You know, I want to say there was a, I don't know, I want to say it was like an old Rode or an AKG or something, but it was I mean, we you know, we didn't know what we were doing. But freedom to explore the process. I mean, again, in hindsight, I see all of us greatest gift possible. Graduate, don't know what I'm going to do. So the Youngstown's, I don't know if I'm gone too far back Joe: No, Richard: Or Joe: No, Richard: Not in the story. Joe: No, no, no. Richard: So I'm going to I go to university, so Youngstown State University. Partially out of desperation, partially out of you know, I didn't, I was wandering in sort of like the the desert of my own immaturity and unawareness, you know? I just, I just I had this thought in my head that I was gonna be the next Leonard Bernstein. Not realizing that basically even the next Leonard Bernstein wasn't going to be the next Leonard Bernstein because that world doesn't exist. And it wasn't like people were telling me that but it doesn't, I mean, it just doesn't exist. And and I didn't, I wasn't that guy. I mean, that's, you know, kind of like what you were talking about before, which I disagree with your assessment of your skill set but we can have that conversation off of air sometime. But no, but, but in all seriousness, I mean, you know but I wasn't that guy. I mean, that's just that's a reality, I wasn't that guy. But while I'm in Youngstown, Stephen Gage, who's another one of these sort of like ah ha moment people. I'd done a lit..I'd done some conducting. I even put together for my senior recital at Bradley, I put together my own sort of like mini orchestra of friends just for the heck of it. And I seem to remember Vroman, Dave Vroman, who was head of the music department, and that can be one of the main conductors there, I seem to remember him saying, you know, we could have like. Richard: To help you out with this, like you didn't have to, like, do it covertly here. He's a guy I really did not appreciate nearly as much as I should have at the time, brilliant man, just brilliant, wonderful guy. But anyway, he, um, so but so Steve Gage basically goes, you know, I need a, I, I've got an opportunity for graduate student. And he was the band conductor is like, but you'll also work a little bit with the orchestras as well. And you'll get to do you know, you'll get to conduct and I'll teach you how to and he was my first real conducting teacher that I took seriously. I had taken cond

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Part 2 - An Interview with Nate Morton, Drummer for "The Voice"

Play Episode Listen Later May 13, 2020 62:19

Nate Morton from "The Voice" In this episode, Part 2, we dig deeper into the audition he went on thanks to Barry Squire and his own networking becoming known as a "player" in town. Besides doing gigs around town and networking, he would go to some of the more well-known jam session so he could be seen, heard and start to build his network. As you'll hear as a constant thread throughout both parts of this conversation, networking and relationships have been key to Nate's growth and success. We talk about the sequence of auditions and gigs in a timeline so you can get a feel for the progression of what Nate went through to bring us current to today. In 2005, there's the lengthy audition for "Rock Star: INXS" and then in 2006, "Rock Start: Supernova". Then onto "The Bonnie Hunt Show" from September 2008 to May 2010. Finally in 2011, he lands one of the greatest gigs of all times, "The Voice" We talk more about his early days in Los Angeles and we walk through his timeline of auditions, touring gigs with well-known artists and end in the present day. Enjoy and thank you for listening!! ********** Nate Morton: Nate's Website: https://natemortondrums.com/ Fraudprophets Website: http://www.fraudprophets.com/ YouTube: Nate Morton Drum Cam Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/natemortondrums/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/n8drumz/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/n8drumz Nate's company affiliations include: Pearl drums & percussion Zildjian cymbals & sticks Roland Remo ePad Cympad GoPro Sennheiser Kelly SHU WingKey https://youtu.be/pjljYtm5DCQ Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. 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Joe: Were you given music ahead of time or did you have to go in and just wing it? Nate: Oh, God. No, no, no, no. If you're gonna do an audition typically back in that era and they would say, you know, oh, go to her manager's office and pick up this C.D. and the he would have, you know, three songs on it and they would generally be listed in the order that they were gonna be released as singles. You know, here's the first single second, third. And in the case of Billy Myers, I feel like her single was already out or was a song called Kiss the Rain. Kenny Aronoff, I think, played drums on the original recording. Joe: Ok. Nate: And yeah, that dude. Yeah. You know that. Yeah. That that up and coming guy. Joe: Right. Nate: What Joe: Right. Nate: He's got, he's got a lot of potential. Joe: Yeah. Nate: I think if he sticks with it, he's really Joe: Right. Nate: Going to Joe: Yeah, Nate: Go far. Joe: Yeah. Nate: I hope, I hope people get my, my stupid sense of humor Joe: They Nate: Like Joe: Totally. Nate: They're just out there just not like oh my God. He said he thinks Kenny Arnow is up and coming. Joe: The Nate: Oh, my God. He's an idiot. That guy. Joe: No. Nate: So, yes, Kenny, if you're listening. I'm sorry. Just joking. So. So I pick up, you know, you pick up the C.D. and. This is twenty, twenty years before almost 20 years before I have to start. No, no, no, no, no. I think that that. I'm sorry. That would have been in the. That would've been let's call it let's call it ninety nine. Two thousand area. And then it wasn't until. Two thousand, five, six or so when Rockstar came along, which is which is this TV show that I did where we started having to learn these like kind of high volumes of songs, right. Where it's like, oh, there's fifteen songs this week to learn, which in retrospect doesn't seem like a lot because there are times on the voice when it's like, OK, here's the thirty six songs rolling this week. Joe: It's amazing. Nate: But at that time to have to come in and in a week learn 14 songs or 12 songs, it was like, I mean if you do a tour. If you do a tour, you might be rehearsing. Let's just say six days a week. Seven or eight hours a day. And you, depending on the tour you're doing and the level you're doing. I mean, you might be learning two songs a day. You're not Joe: Hey, Nate: Saying Joe: Yeah. Nate: Muddy Lane shoes on the day because the keyboard players are dialing sounds and this is that I didn't want to wear. It was it was actually literally that it was literally out of a 10 hour day. The keyboard players and guitar players were dialing sounds for seven and a half or eight hours of getting the sound right for you. The track was so the idea that you would come in and in the space of a week, from Monday to Saturday, Saturday, really Monday to Sunday, you know, it's like Monday and Tuesday, you've got to learn 14 songs because you're seeing the contestants on Wednesday and Thursday. I mean, at that, like I said now. I mean, I could I could, I could. You know, this sounds terrible, but, I mean, I could do that and read a book and crochet a sweater at the same time. Well, but then but then the idea of fourteens on the two days like war. So anyway, my Joe: And this Nate: Only. Joe: Was the rock star time frame that you're talking about. Nate: Correct. Joe: When? Nate: This was the beginning Joe: Ok. Nate: Of rock star. This is Joe: All Nate: The Joe: Right. Nate: Beginning of rock star. Joe: Ok. Nate: So. So. Joe: And how did you get that? Like. Morgan walks in the room and like every drummer runs its runs to the corner like a bunch. Nate: Are you out of your mind? Joe: So don't don't you know, don't belittle Nate: Okay, okay, okay, Joe: The Nate: Okay, Joe: Fact Nate: Ok. Joe: That you had to go do something to get these gigs. That's important. Nate: Ok, Joe. Joe: It's. Nate: Ok. Why did you ask me? Ask me? Joe: Ok, so you were with Nate: Ask Joe: Billy Nate: Me, Joe: Myers Nate: Ask me, Joe: And then. Nate: Ask me the big question, which is because this is this is this was this is the big question that I'll bring it on home. Ask me the big question, which is how did you get the gig on The Voice? Joe: No, because there's so many other things in Nate: No, Joe: Between. Nate: No, no, no, no. Just Joe: Oh, Nate: Try Joe: I thought there Nate: It. Joe: Was. Nate: No, no, no, just try Joe: Ok. Nate: It. Joe: Really? OK. So Nate, how did you get the audition on The Voice? Nate: No, no, no, no, no, no. The gate, the gate stretch. Joe: Oh, the Nate: Try, Joe: Gag Nate: Try again. Try again, Joe. Nate, how did you get the gig on The Voice? Joe: Me. How did you get the gag on The Voice? Nate: Funny you should ask. Joe: Oh, good. Nate: So back in, ho, ho, ho. Get comfortable people back. Somewhere around 2002. I always want to do like in the year 2000. Joe: Right. Nate: If anyone remembers that, I don't even remember that little Conan O'Brien bit. That has to do with Eddie Richter. So back somewhere around 2002, I was playing with the singer songwriter piano player named Billy Appealing. That was a little earlier named Vanessa Carlton. So 2002, 2002, 2003, somewhere in that neighborhood, maybe 2003. And for those of you who may not be familiar with Vanessa Carlton, she had a single called A Thousand Miles. It was a really big summertime single. So interrelates with Vanessa, and we're somewhere in the middle of somewhere and I get a call. Joe: See? But there you go again, you skipped over, how did you get that gig? Nate: Well, I actually didn't skip over Joe because I said because I said Nate's a jerk because because I said that many of my earlier auditions, of which Vanessa Carlton was one can't be very Swier, actually. Probably Joe: Ok. Nate: Did. I probably Joe: Ok. Nate: Admitted that. Yes, she. So OK, then I'll give you the quick I'll give you the quick. Overview of the various wire gate, so of the various of the gigs that I did or of the auditions that I did when I first moved the town, that I found myself in a room in some way, shape or form or fashion at the result of knowing or as a result of knowing various wire. The first one was Billy Myers. The next one, I think, was Tommy Hinrichsen, who is a guitar player, bass player, singer songwriter, rocker of all levels. He's currently playing guitar with Alice Cooper. Right. But it's time he had a deal on capital. Yes, capital is the only capital records. So Billy Myers, Tommy Henderson. Darren Hayes, who was a lead. I think he was the lead singer of Savage Garden. And so for a minute there, Darren Hayes had a solo project. Darren Hayes. And so I didn't audition that. I was fortunate to get through that. I was unable to do it because of a conflict with another very ask audition that I did, which was Vanessa Carlton. So Darren Hayes and Vanessa Carlton conflicted. So I found myself having to choose between the two or fortunate to have the, you know, good, good problem of choosing between the two. And and I elected to. Play with Vanessa Carlton and then also in there was there was a well, there is a he's a bad ass, a techno dance artist, ETM artist, if you will, called Brian Transito or Beatty is his name. So those those handful of auditions all came through the Barry Squire stream. So Joe: Perfect. Nate: Very smart, Joe: Now, I feel Nate: Very Joe: So Nate: Suave Joe: Much Nate: Stream. Joe: Better now. Nate: There you go. Barry Swier Stream led to Vanessa Carlton. So both now mentor Vanessa. Phone rings This might've been a Bery call as well, but it was Hey, Nate. There's a certain big artist who's auditioning and she is looking to put the band on retainer and the auditions are this day, she's heard a lot of players. They haven't said of the band yet. And we would like you to come to the audition and I won't say the artists. Name, but her initials are Alanis Morissette. So. Let's hope Joe: Oh, Nate: So. Joe: Good. Nate: So Joe: That Nate: I'm Joe: Was true, Nate Nate: So Joe: Martin Nate: I'm free. Joe: Form right Nate: Thank you. Joe: There Nate: Thank Joe: Was Nate: You. Thank Joe: Perfect. Nate: You. Thank you. Thank you. Joe: God, I'm so glad. Nate: So so I'm out with Vanessa and I get this call that Atlantis is auditioning. And I know that Vanessa's tour is winding down. And so I'm very excited. I'm like, oh, man, this could be a great transition. So in the middle of the Vanessa gate, I fly home. All of this, by the way, I'm still answering the question, how did you get to get on the voice? If you can't if you can believe it. So, so so it works out that the day she's auditioning it, it falls on like a day off that I've got with Vanessa. And so it's a day off with Vanessa. I don't remember where we are, but I raced to the airport in the morning. I fly home. I'm listening to Atlanta songs on the way home, the song songs if you're going to ask for a rhyme, charting out my little charts. And I think and I get there and I go to the audition and. And it was amazing. I played it. Yeah. Sounds great. You guys will rock it. And at the end of the audition they go, man, that was great. You didn't get to play. Oh, my heart broke. I was so sad. Right. So I did not get the gig. They said, thank you for joining us. You're you know, you did a good job. But we're going to you know, we have another guy. OK, I get back on a plane the next day, I fly back, I rejoin Venessa, which is a great gig. No disrespect to Buddhism. Joe: Anybody Nate: And so. Joe: Know where you went in that period of time? Nate: Sure, Joe: Was it Nate: Probably. Joe: That the van? Nate: Or you know what? Do you know what the truth is? I'll be honest with you. I don't even remember. I don't remember. I don't remember. I might have said maybe it would be not kosher to be like, hey, I'm going home to audition for a gig that's no bigger than this one. And so so maybe I wouldn't have said it. Maybe it would have added more a little bit more subtle approach. But nonetheless, I didn't get it anyway. So I arrived back and then I finish out of Inessa tour and I'm a little bit bummed that I missed out on that great opportunity because. Hashtag comments were sent. Joe: Yeah, Nate: All Joe: Yeah, Nate: Right. Joe: Yeah. Hell, yeah. Nate: Shoot. So if you called me today, I'd be like, I don't know, can I. Can I fit your voice schedule? Or is it here? I mean, she's amazing. Right, Joe: Yeah, absolutely. Nate: Though. So the Vanessa. Tour finishes and not too long after the Vanessa tour finishes, and I feel like this is I feel like this is the end of. Oh, for. I get a call from a friend and he says, hey, mate, Mark Burnett is putting together his TV show. It's called Rock Star. He needs a band. And so he is called upon however many in eight, ten, twelve days to put together bands to come in audition to potentially be the house band on this show. It's going to be like American Idol, but it's going to have like rock and rock songs. You know, it could be great. And so I go, okay. That man, of course, I would love to. And so the person who called me for that audition was a bass player named Derek Frank, who has a very, very long list of credits to his name. So Derek put together the band as the band leader, and we went and auditioned. So now we're in early 2005, because if memory serves the first round of auditions for Rock Star, we're in the first or second week of the year. That was like January 5th or something, right? Was the audition. We audition and again, multiple bands audition again. The whole process is going on and on and on. And eventually they wind up saying, OK, I get a call from Clive Lieberman, who is I'm still in my life at that time. I get a call from Clive Lieberman and he says, OK, we've narrowed it down. We have three drummers that we're looking at. And you're one of the three. And here's the next day, you know, can you be here on this day? At this time? OK, sure. Of course I can. So I go there. And now now we're in like late January because the process started like early January. Now we're moving into like mid late January. Joe: Wow. That's incredible. Nate: The man I was started. I'm just getting warmed up. So so I go there. And the other drummers are playing and the rotating Grumman's in and out in the way that. I mean, I've done several auditions and they all work a variety of ways. But generally, if none of the band is set, then some portion of the audition live audition is that drummer with that bass player, that bass player with that guitar player, that guitar player with that drummer that removes that bass player on that guitar player in there, especially in this sense, has a television show. They're analyzing it all. So so they're they're well above like, do these guys sound good? They're like, do I like that guy's dreadlocks? In my case, for example, I know that guy has a guitar that's like Dayglo pink. That's cool. Oh, I hate that guy's boots. Like, it's on that level because the TV show. Right. So at the end of the day, we're playing with vulnerably. Okay. I'm let's let's say I'm drummer number three. So we're playing, playing, playing, playing, playing. At some point they say, okay, drummer number one, you can go home. And then I look around and there's just like German number two and me bling, bling, bling, bling, bling. And at some point they say, OK, drummer number two. Thank you a lot. You can go home and then it's just me and I'm playing for like the rest of the day and well into the night. So finally they say, OK, we're finished for the night. Everybody can go home. Now, when they did that on Billy Myers, it was this is the band we're playing Vibe tomorrow. Let's get her done as opposed to on this, where they're like. All right. Joe: Go Nate: So Joe: Now, Nate: I Joe: Go home Nate: Could Joe: And worry. Now go home and Nate: Go Joe: Worry. Nate: Home. Now go home. Right. So I go up to Clyde. Clide Lieberman. Love them, love, love, love. I got to climb. I go say Hi, Clyde. As I look around, I don't see any other drummers. I said so. So can I. I said, so should I. Should I go home and, you know, have a celebratory drink? And Clyde's response was, well, you should definitely go home and have a drink, Joe: Yes. Oh, no. Nate: Right? It's so, Joe: Oh, no. Nate: So, so now we're at the end of January. The band that they arrived at. Sort of somewhere in February. They had this band. Right. And I was included among and within that band. And they had an M.D., a guitar player, a bass player and a multi instrumentalist. And so then that band did a gig for the. That was a CBS show. So we'd have done a gig for, like, those higher up CBS guys. Right. We would have had to have been approved by them. Then at some point, they kind of went like, well, what if we had this person on bass? So then that band did another gig for the CBS people. Then, well, what do we have this person on guitar? Then that band did another gig for the CBS people. Joe: Wow. Nate: Then I was like, wow, this isn't working out. Let's go back to the other band. OK, now then that band did. So. So there were there were there were hoops aplenty to jump through. But in the end of all the jumping through hoops and I remember this date, I don't know why it's burned in my head. I could have it wrong. But I remember this date. I feel like May. I feel like it was May 19th. We were all sat in a room with the executive producer of that show, Rock Star. His name is David Goffin and that band. Was myself on drums. Sasha could face off on base. Half Amaria on guitar, Jim O'Gorman on guitar and multi instrumentalist and musical director. Paul Markovich. So that was the first time Paul, Sasha and myself worked together as a rhythm section. Now, Sasha was my bass player on Vanessa Carlton. And Paul had also worked with Sasha in other situations. But this is the first time at that that this was the genesis of that rhythm section. So. From Rock Star, that rhythm section went on to do multiple sessions in town. Two seasons of Rock Star. That band went on to do a tour with Paul Stanley. Ultimately, that rhythm section wound up doing the Cher Caesars Palace run. So now I flashed all the way forward from 2000 and. Five. Right. By the way. So the first audition, the first part of that audition was in early January. And the band wasn't solidified until Joe: May 19th. Nate: The end of May. Well, May 19th was when they said, if you want to do it. Joe: Got it. Nate: And then ultimately, by the time contract or signed. Yeah, it was the end of May. It was the end of May. Beginning of June. Somewhere in there. Joe: So all of this time, you're not making any money. Nate: No, the auditions that we did and the rehearsals that we did were paid Joe: Ok. Nate: Because because at the end of the day, you are a professional musician. So even whether whether you have the gig or not, it is still your time, you know. And Joe: Ok. Nate: It is, you know, I mean, we were we weren't on some sort of, you know, incredible retainer or anything. But at the same time, the powers that be know that to expect you to dedicate the time to learning these songs and doing these rehearsals and showing up and, you know, wearing halfway presentable clothes and showing up with good gear and playing gigging town and good, that's not something that people would typically want to do for free. That's something that that you know, that that's what we do. And so Joe: Right. Nate: They wouldn't have expected us to do that for free. Joe: So any point during this interview process from early January to this may date where it finally gets solidified? Did any other tour opportunities come up that almost tore you away to go and say, OK, this great thing has just come in? And if I get this, I'm out here, I'm done with these auditions. I'm going. Nate: So, Joe, when you called me. And you were like, hey, man, can you come in my pocket hasn't got to me and I was like, Sure, sure. And then you were just like, Yeah, we'll talk about your life story. Joe: All. Nate: And I was like Joe: Right. Nate: I was kind of like, oh, there's gonna be like everything I've always been asked before and about we all the same stuff. I hope Joe comes with a new question. I hope so. That's the first time anyone has ever asked me that question. Joe: Seriously? Nate: And yes, that's the first time I've ever been asked that question. And that is an interesting question. And it is, is it is very insightful. Joe: So we'll think I'm Nate: So Joe: Looking. Nate: Absolutely. Joe: I'm looking through all of this because I live through you, you know that, right? So I am all of these questions are like, man, if I was in the middle of all this and all of a sudden, you know, share, I get the call from Barry saying Cher's auditioning. So anyhow, that that's why it was Nate: Well, Joe: Important. Nate: And like I said, it's a good question and it's a very astute question. And the answer is yes. I mean, because it was from early part of the year to like May, April, you know, in that in that neighborhood. Joe: And they're building Nate: So, Joe: Up Nate: Yeah, Joe: Their tour Nate: That's Joe: Vans. Nate: When things are Joe: Right. Nate: Happening. Joe: Right. Nate: Right. That's why things are happening. I can't remember specific things that I would have, you know, turned down or that I would have not been available for. But I will say that even in that context of it not being solidified. I felt like it was definitely worth keeping my. Carts hooked to that ox because it was a TV show. And all the time that I was touring, I was definitely like, you know, like touring is great. Touring is a blast. I love it. I may wind up doing it again at some point. That'll be amazing. We'll be fine. But there's also an extent to where it's like it might also be nice to be able to make a living, staying in town and seeing your family every day and sleeping in your own bed, driving your car and go into your favorite restaurants and not dealing with the fact that you showed up at, you know, 10 and the rooms won't be ready until two. So you're sleeping on a couch in the hotel lobby. You know, that's that's also an element of truth. So. So, yes. So things came in. Kate came and went, and I definitely decided to stay the course and, you know, follow that that that path towards what I thought would be a TV show which wound up being a TV show. And where was I? Sorry, Bella. Joe: So, no, it's OK. So Rockstar, you guys did Nate: Right. Joe: A bunch Nate: So Joe: Of Nate: That Joe: Shows. Nate: Was the first time I played Joe: Yes. Nate: It, right? Right, exactly. Exactly. Joe: You're the new Nate: So. Joe: Heart rhythm section in town, right? Nate: Where are the new rhythm section and how. Joe: Ok. Nate: Oh, we were that time. But but yeah, you know. And so so the whole the only the only point that I was really trying to make in this very, very, very, very long winded, you know, spool here is. The. The fact that I'm able to be on The Voice now is a direct result of the relationship that I started with Paul Markovich back in 2005 on Rock Star. So what is this, 2020? Joe: Yes. Nate: Right. So. This whole gig started coming about. A decade and a half ago. And so I. And so I say all that, I say that to even spend it further back to talk about what I was saying earlier about relationships, which is that you have no idea, you know, the the guy that you do a gig with one time for one hundred bucks at a club somewhere. Might be the guy who calls you for the audition that completely changes the course of your career. Joe: All right. Nate: So, you know, Joe: So Nate: I mean, and. Joe: So Rockstar was till when? Nate: Rockstar, unfortunately, only lasted two seasons, Rockstar was 2005, 2006 on CBS. The first season it was Rockstar in excess and the feature band was in excess. And we were going through the process to find a lead singer to replace Michael Hutchence. And then the subsequent season was called Rock Star Supernova. And they had chosen Tommy Lee. Oh, this is embarrassing. Tommy Lee. Jason is dead. And a guitar player. Joe: Tell us of. Nate: But they are putting together the supergroup. They're putting the supergroup. And and so they were basically auditioning for a singer to front this supergroup. And that was what that season was about. And so then, yeah, like I said, that's easy. It ended. And then Paul Stanley called like Vee Paul Stanley. Joe: Yeah. Nate: Like the walking, breathing, living. Iconic legend Joe: Yes. Nate: Paul Stanley calls and says, Hey, guys, I'm going to go out and support my solo record. You want to play with me and I will. Duh. Joe: Right. Nate: You know, I mean, Paul is amazing. Paul, Paul, Paul is Paul and Cher. Paul, Stanley and Cher share. Shares is a share on all adult donor list, but possibly in share. Both have this. They are at once incredibly. Sort of present and know exactly who they are. And the fact that they are literally. Iconic legends. But at the same time, able to make fun of themselves, able to laugh. Selves able to be down to earth, able to be. Just so what's the word I'm looking for, relatable. Joe: Authentic. Yeah, Nate: Authentic, relatable Joe: Yeah, Nate: In a crazy Joe: Yeah. Nate: Way. You know what I mean? Have figured. I didn't pause daily. I said to you, man, I was in this band, you know, however long ago or whatever you guys met and she was older than that. Oh, okay. Go. I love it. Was the early days as to whether I was the rock band. It's the story. Joe: Peter. Nate: Sorry. You know, because I was such a funny time. So it's the band from Rockstar Impulse Daily. And I hit the pause daily as it meant the band from Rockstar and Paulist Aliens is the best band ever played with us. Here it goes. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure this is the best band you've ever played with. Joe: Nice. Oh, my guys, Nate: No, Joe: It's Nate: It was Joe: Hours Nate: It was Joe: Of. Nate: So great. He was so great. It's like the cool thing, too, is we did it. We did a show a while back. And one of the songs we played in season finale after the season finale is over and the show's over. I hopped my car to drive home and drink. And I have a text from Paul Stanley telling me, oh, my God, man, great job on, you know, such and such a song tonight. Joe: That's so cool, man. Nate: It's amazing. Joe: It's so Nate: You know, Joe: Cool. Nate: He is he is genuinely one of those guys who. I don't know. He's just he's he he's he's able to balance being an icon and still being sort of down to earth and, Joe: That's really Nate: You know, Joe: Cool. Nate: Relatable and. Yeah. Joe: So what year is this that you go out with him right after Rockstar ends? Nate: Well, Roxette would have been a five oh oh oh five was one season. 06 was another season. And so I feel like we did. I mean, it would have been 06. It would've been 06. Maybe in two oh seven. But maybe just because because Rock Star was a summer show, so we wider than rock star and been down at the end of the summer. And then we might respect, like the fall slash winter with Paul Stanley Joe: Ok. Nate: And then been done because because the the second leg of the Paul Stanley tour was Australia. And so Australia, if you don't know or if anyone doesn't know. Is backwards to us. So Australia winter is our summer. So it's 100 degrees in the winter. So I feel like it was that. I feel like it was like the fall here. I feel like it was 2006 rehearsals. Maybe in the fall tour here in the fall. And then I feel like that tour would have gone into like maybe. Like October, November in in Australia, Joe: Ok. Nate: Something of that nature. Joe: And at Nate: Yeah. Joe: This point, is this the biggest tour that you've done up to date to Nate: With Joe: That Nate: Paul. Joe: Yet? Nate: He is definitely the most iconic artist that I would have worked with up Joe: Up Nate: To that point, Joe: To that Nate: You know? Joe: Point. OK. Nate: Well, OK. Well. No, because I don't mean. I tried not to like. Joe: You've done so many great things, we can't leave anything out. Nate: No, no, I'm just. I'm OK. What exactly Joe: That's why Nate: Is Joe: I'm Nate: Going Joe: Prodding Nate: On right now? Joe: You for all of this stuff. This Nate: No, Joe: Is my job. Nate: I mean, man, I'm just fortunate. I'm fortunate that I've managed to eke out a living doing this thing. And I'm fortunate that, like, people calling me to do what I do, I feel like. Joe: And you're about the most humble person I've ever met in my life. That's the reason. Nate: That's nice. That's nice of you to say. Thank Joe: It's Nate: You. Joe: True. Nate: But it's Joe: It's. Nate: True. I know. But you know what? It is so so look. So when I was in high school. I wasn't walking around like, yeah. One day I'm gonna play a post alien, Chaka Khan, and, you know, remember me on TV? I didn't think that. I thought like Joe: That was like your Richard Pryor. Nate: I thought. Joe: Now it's like you're selling Richard Pryor. That Nate: I'm so not going to even try to do Richard Pryor. Joe: Was Nate: But Joe: Great. Nate: But Joe: Oh, Nate: But Joe: Good. Nate: I mean, I guess. But bye bye. But my point is that, like, my point is every day I am of two people. I am the person who gets up and goes like, OK, today it's time to get up and learn the Peter Frampton song that we're playing on the show today. Like what? Like the first. Right. Right, so so, so part of me goes. OK, let's learn. Peter Frampton on. That's the that's the current me. But the high school me is still in there, and one of the first records I ever owned was a Peter Frampton record, right? Not Frampton comes alive, but it's like one before that. The single was a song called I Can't Stand It No More. Which I'm not even going to try to sing. But it's a really cool tune. But like so the part of me gets up and goes, OK, let's go to Linda Peter Frampton song play today. But then inside that is still like the little kid going like, I can't believe I'm playing with this guy. That is one of the dudes that I learned to play drums by jamming along to my drum set Joe: Yeah, Nate: To the Joe: It's Nate: To Joe: Crazy. Nate: The LP. I'm a record player, so I say all that just to say, like in terms of being humble. It's not like I'm trying to be humble. It's just that I still the meet the young me still steps back and looks at what I'm fortunate to do and goes, Oh my God. Dude, you're you're a lucky friggin fortunate mofo to get to do what you're doing. So and then again, circling back to where we were, which was you said up to that point, Paul Stanley. And the reason why I paused. I had not played with Cher at that point, but I feel like I had played with Natalie Cole at that point. Joe: Ah, Nate: Yeah, so. Joe: So that's Nate: Right. Joe: Here. Nate: So so genre differences, obviously, and volume of people who know, obviously, you know, potentially different. Joe: Yes. Nate: But I mean, in terms of iconic, Joe: Yes. Nate: I mean, they're both they're both right there. I remember going out to dinners. Natalie would have these dinners. We were on tour in Japan at one point and she said, we know want everybody come down to dinner at the restaurant, at the hotel or whatever, and we're there. And she would say things like, you know what? When Daddy said that? And I'm like. Joe: Oh, my gosh. Your mind explodes. Nate: My mind explodes. Joe: That is so Nate: One Joe: Cool. Nate: Time Daddy said, and it was like, Wow. Joe: Yeah. Nate: So yeah, man. So I mean so so I can't remember the exact timeline. But up to that point. Yes, it would have been Natalie, Paul Stanley. I had a short I had a short run with Chaka Khan Joe: Ok. Nate: Up to that point. So she's you know, she's you know, I mean, Chaka Joe: Yeah. Nate: Khan. Right. Joe: Hey. Nate: I mean it again, like I said, even as I say this, that I have a hard time saying these things because I don't come across like I played with her. It's like to me, I literally look back and I like I play with a person like they hired Joe: So Nate: Me. They're bad. Joe: Call Soquel. Nate: So now I it's. Yeah, it's man. I'm so fortunate. I'm so fortunate. Joe: So where are we in the timeline now, because. Nate: Well, at this point, we're up to about where we're up to Paul Stanley. So impossibly ends, Joe: Yeah. And this again, Nate: Stanley Joe: What Nate: Ends. Joe: Year is this? Remind me. 2009, Nate: Well, Joe: You Nate: We're Joe: Said. Nate: All well, we're we're pretty much almost current at this point because when Paul Stanley ends. That's got to be like, let's see, oh, five or six or seven. That's got to be like in the O2 eight ish 07, Joe: Ok. Nate: Seven or eight ish ballpark. Joe: Yes. OK. Nate: And then I did a TV show. I was fortunate to do a couple of TV shows, and one of them was called the Bonnie Hunt Show, which was a daytime talk show on NBC. And circling way back to your way earlier question about in terms of who was at early with me, who that I know still. So Churchill era was the piano player and the band on the body honcho. And and it is and it is through Chechu Elora that I got the call to audition for the band or the Bonnie Joe: Wow. Nate: Hunt show right Joe: How many years later Nate: Later than Berkeley. Joe: Here? It's like. Nate: I mean, it's a little Berkeley, I graduated ninety four, the call for Bonnie Joe: It's crazy. Nate: Hunt to audition comes 94, 2004 to about a decade and a half. Joe: It's crazy, right? This is exactly Nate: It's crazy, Joe: What you were talking about. Nate: But it's relationships, Joe: Yeah, Nate: It's relationships, Joe: Yeah. Nate: You know. So, yeah. So then. So Bonnie Hunt. And then that ran for a while and then Bonnie Hunt for a stretch, ran concurrent with Cher. So I was playing with Bonnie. And share at the same time, and I can't actually remember which one came online first, but what I was basically doing was I was playing in Vegas with Cher and then on my days off from Cher, I was coming home to Bonnie here in L.A. and I was basically driving back and forth and doing sort Joe: Wow. Nate: Of double duty. Yeah, it was it was a little bit. It was a little taxing because Joe: Oh, my God. Nate: I. Joe: So was Cher a Barry Squire gig? Nate: Cher actually came through my relationship with Paul Markovitch dating back to 2005, Joe: Ok. Nate: So meeting him in 05, doing the show with all five of six rock star Paul Stanley tour sessions in town. Other things in town. And then Cher would have come about. I mean, it feels like. Oh, nine ish. But don't quote me on that. Oh nine oh nine. Give or take six months to a year. Joe: Ok. And the share gig was at a walk on for you because of Paul. Or you still had to audition. Nate: Share. That's what he called a walk on. Joe: Guy, Nate: It makes Joe: I Nate: It sound so Joe: Don't Nate: So Joe: Know Nate: It Joe: What Nate: Makes us so casual, like, Joe: Would Nate: Hey, Joe: Have Nate: Man, Joe: Come Nate: Come on over Joe: Up. Nate: And play with us and share. Joe: I don't even Nate: Hey. Joe: Know where that term comes from. Walk on. Was Nate: Oh, Joe: It? Nate: Well, we'll Joe: Isn't Nate: Walk Joe: That like Nate: On Joe: A Nate: Is Joe: Football Nate: Like. Joe: Thing? Like if you don't have to. You don't have to go through the audition. Nate: No, Joe: Are Nate: I Joe: The. Nate: Think it's. No, I think it's kind of the opposite. I think it's a college. I think it's a college athletics term. But it's not a good thing. I know you're using it as a good term, but I think that in college athletics, you have your your your top tier guys who are on scholarship. So like, for example, on a college basketball team, like a Division One team, I think there's like twelve kids, I think. And I think that, like, 10 of them are on scholarship, but there's like auditions, auditions, music nerd tryouts Joe: Tryout. Nate: To fill like those last spots. Joe: Hey, Nate: And Joe: I Nate: I think Joe: Said auditions, Nate: Those last Joe: Too. Nate: Spots. Joe: I couldn't think of the word. Nate: Right. I think those last spots are walk ons like, OK. We've got art, we've got our eight or whatever it is, our 10, we've got our we've got our blue chippers over here. We've got to fill out the team, open tryouts, and then there's like 100 kids. And of that one hundred kids, you pick like four or five, whatever it is to fill out your team. That's a walk on. So like a walk on. Oftentimes never even gets on the floor like in in that context. But Joe: So Nate: I understand Joe: I Nate: What you're Joe: Totally Nate: Saying. Joe: Use Nate: No, Joe: That. Nate: You did. But no, but I understand. I totally understand what you meant. I told you so. But and to answer your question, yes. I did not audition. Mark was playing with Cher. And I believe that Pink had dates that conflicted. And so I believe that he made the decision to go and fulfill his obligation with Pink, which vacated the Cher position, which gave Paul the leeway to basically call me. And then I came in and I finished out the whole run with Cher at Caesar's Palace in Vegas. Joe: Got it. And she Nate: So Joe: Was Nate: Then. Joe: Amazing. Amazing person, everything you actually got to hang with her a little bit. Nate: She's Joe: A lot. Nate: Awesome. She's awesome. She she is one of the people like and again, I never take any of this for granted. I never think any of this is assumed. None of it. But like those kind of stories that you hear about artists who are like, you know what, I'm just gonna buy out the whole theater for Tuesday night. So my whole band and crew and dancers and everyone can go and watch Boogie Nights. You know, I mean, like or hey, I'm just gonna, like, buy out all of the pole position, indoor, you know, go kart race track for a night. So my whole band and crew could just go and do that. So, you know, she really she did a thing once where Cher is the coolest. Like, shares the coolest. And the first person to make fun of Cher is Cher. Like, she's so, you know, like self-effacing. But at the same time knows that she's an icon. And that's an amazing thing. It's an amazing balance. But we did a thing one night where we played. Bingo. Right. Hey, guys, I want everybody to come down to the theater where we're going to play bingo. OK, so here we sit playing bingo. And the prizes, if you get bingo, is like an Apple iPad. OK. So this person wins, OK? He got B eleven I 17 in bingo. Here's my pad. Thank Joe: Nice. Nate: You. Good bye. OK. Here's your iPad. OK. It's like. It's like. It's like Oprah. You got a car. Joe: Right. Nate: You've got a car. You've got a car. Right. So. So. So the night is that we played. I don't know. There's there's 200 people on the crew. And we played 30 rounds of bingo. So 30 people have walked out with iPods. OK, well, it's late. It's you know, it's Vegas. So. So, so Vegas late. So it's, you know, hetero. 3:00 in the morning. OK, everybody. It's all good. Great job. Last round works on me. OK. Goodnight. Right. Bye. OK. Show up the next day. Do you know whatever it is, soundcheck? Oh, date. He's right that way. What you mean? I didn't win. No, no. Sure. Have for everybody. Joe: Nice. Nate: You know, I mean, like that kind Joe: Yeah, Nate: Of thing. Joe: Yeah, yeah, Nate: He get out Joe: That's cool. Nate: So. So. So, yeah, I know she was she was one of the. Coolest, most relaxed, she Ampol. I mean, I don't. I got to say, it's it's ironic or not that two of the most well-known, iconic, well respected artists that I've ever worked with are also two of the most down to earth. Relaxed. Nothing to prove. Cher has nothing to prove. Paul Stanley has nothing to prove. There's no attitude. There's no weirdness. Like. Joe: It's really cool. Nate: It's really cool. Joe: Yeah. Nate: It's really cool. And I've just been fortunate that. I. I have historically never shows in. Gigs, opportunities, situations. Politically, and here's what I mean. I've never chosen a gig because the artist was the biggest artist or because the guys in the band I thought were the coolest guys who would call me for gigs one day. I've always been the guy who. If you call me for a gig, you call me for a game. OK, Joe. Hey, Nate. Put together a band for this game of going on. I'm never gonna be like, let me call the four guys who I think are most likely to call me for a big gig. Let me call the four guys who are my boys, who I think could really a user gig or B are going to play this the best. I'm never. So that might wind up being four guys you've never heard of. Joe: Right. Nate: But they'll kill it. Joe: Sure. Nate: And they're my buddies and. And it'll be a great game. So I guess my point is I've always done that and I've never chosen gigs. By the way. Based on. Political or financial gain? So numerous times. I've had a. That might be more beneficial politically or financially, frankly. But maybe I hate the music or I've got gig B. Where I love the music and I love the dudes, but it pays half what gig pays on gig based. And the reason I've always done that is because I've always hoped that in the end, wherever I land, I'm gonna be playing great music with great musicians in a cool situation with guys that I really love being around. And I am so fortunate that that's the case. The guys in the band on the boys are my brothers. Those are my guys. Joe: Right. It could Nate: You Joe: Prove Nate: Know. Joe: To be a really long tour if you're on a gig where it pays a lot of money. But the music sucks and Nate: Or you Joe: You don't Nate: Don't Joe: Like Nate: Like Joe: The Nate: The Joe: People. Nate: People. Yeah, or you don't like the people you're playing with. And and yeah. And. Yeah, I like I said, I've just I've just been very I've been very fortunate, you know? And again, it's like the guys on the voice are my family and not even just the guys on the voice. The guys are the boys in the band. The girls on the voice in the band. The whole voice, music, family. People sometimes say, how do you guys get along so well? And I'll quote one of our keyboard techs slash. Brainiac Patrick, who knows the answers to all the questions. He just does he's like DOE technology. But someone once asked, how do you guys get along so well? And Patrick said, or no, they said, why do you guys go along so well? No. Was it. Hold on. Let me go straight. Yeah, I was how do you guys get along so well? And Patrick said it's because we have to. But we have to in other words, what we do and the product that we create and the amount of time that we spend around each other and working with each other. It could only exist if we had the kind of family relationship that we did. We have to if it if it's not that it can't get done, it can't Joe: Right. Nate: Happen. Joe: Right. Nate: You know, Joe: Yes. Nate: So I'm rambling, but that's kind Joe: No, no, Nate: Of where Joe: No. Nate: That's kind of that's that's the whole story. So, so, so an answer. Joe: So, again, in the timeline, year two thousand nine. Nate: Yeah. That's when the voice starts 2010, somewhere in that ballpark. Yeah. Joe: When the voice was, I guess I might be getting it mixed up with the rock star. The Voice wasn't a lengthy audition, right? It was you already because of Paul and everything. I don't remember. Nate: Well, I mean, the voice, so the voice came about. The voice was not an audition. The process that led to me being on The Voice. Started. A decade prior. Over a decade prior, you know, so. So, no, it wasn't an audition, but it was a relationship that built over the over the preceding however many years that was from. Well, I said it decades. So I guess I guess not a decade. But. The voice would have been 2009 10 and I would have met Paul is more than five. So about a half a decade. So, yeah, so would have been a five year, six year relationship prior that led to the voice ultimately Joe: That's Nate: For Joe: Amazing. Nate: Me anyway. Joe: Right. Nate: Yeah. Joe: And it's and it's going strong and you guys sound better than ever. And it's just amazing. And just to be on the set. It was so cool. I think the funny and I tell people the story all the time. The fact that I was able to have, you know, some ears to listen to Nate: Yes. Joe: The band, Nate: Oh, God. Joe: The banter Nate: Oh. Joe: On the bandstand. Nate: Woo! Oh, don't you ever put that out anywhere Joe: Oh, okay. Nate: Where the worst are the worst. Joe: Okay. Nate: All we do is back on each other all day. Joe: Oh, my gosh. It is amazing. So what else? I want to make sure we didn't miss anything. And I want to also give you a moment to plug anything that you're doing. I don't know if you still you still have your band outside of The Voice. Nate: Well, I'm involved in a side project with my buddy Sean Halley, Sean Halley and I, and sadly now do you always do these v a zoom? Joe: So far, because I just started it when all of this happened. Nate: Right. Joe: So. Nate: And all of this for your listeners who may see this down the road, years, three years, four years is that we are in the midst of a zombie apocalypse. Joe: Correct. Nate: There are cars being turned over. Joe: Better known as Cauvin Nate: Yes, Joe: 19. Nate: Yes. Yes. That's Joe: Yes. Nate: It's it's it's crazy. So, yeah, I mean, all of this is happening amidst this time when, you know, gigs are getting canceled and all of this. And actually, I had a gig with my side project, which is a band called Fraud Profits, which is myself and my dear, dear friend Sean Halley, also a genius, by the way. And we had this band for our profits, which was filled out by bass player Ben White. And Ed Roth was gonna be playing keys with us. And we had a gig booked on April 10th that we were all excited to do it. And so it's not happening. But in terms of things that I'm doing outside the voice, that is one of the primary things. So you can if you're interested, you can look up Frauke profits F are eight. You d p r o p h e t s dot com. And you can also find us on Instagram. You can also find us on Facebook. And so we will continue to keep you updated on what we're up to in the albums available where all albums are available. It's called Pop Ptosis and it's really rad. Yeah, Joe: Awesome. Nate: Yeah, Joe: All Nate: Man, Joe: Right, cool. Nate: It's. Joe: And then what about lessons? What are you doing Nate: I don't know, I guess trying to study with you at some point when you have some have Joe: Ok. Nate: Some availability Joe: Well, Nate: And you can you Joe: Yeah, Nate: Can fit me Joe: I'm Nate: In. Joe: Pretty tied Nate: Ok. Joe: Up Nate: We'll Joe: Right Nate: Get back Joe: Now. Nate: To me. Get back to me. You can when you can fit me in your schedule. Now, Joe: Oh, Nate: So. Joe: Good. No, sir. So how can people how can drummers that want to go to the next level take lessons from you? How I know that. Nate: Right. Joe: I guess if they're in L.A. and when things get back to whatever air quotes normal, if that happens, they could come there to your studio and Nate: Right. Joe: Do it. Nate: Right. But in Joe: You Nate: The meantime, Joe: Doing? Nate: I Joe: Yeah. Nate: Will. I am making myself available for online lessons. And it's a thing that thanks to this. I think I mentioned to you earlier, I got my whole rig up and running. So I'm talking into like an actual microphone as opposed to my my earbuds and I have on headphones as opposed to my earbuds, because the headphones, the microphone are all running through my studio gear, which I'm making like gestures at, but no one can see. But I am getting the rig here setup so that I can do online lessons. I have done some of the past and I'm thinking that with my new audio going on. Thanks to the motivation of getting with you and chatting tonight. I have it a little bit more under control. So sure, if you want to man if you want get together online for like a lesson or an exchange of knowledge or any of that stuff, I'm so easy to find. I'm on Instagram or Insta, as I call it, when I want to make my wife really Joe: It's Nate: Angry. She's like Joe: Nice. Nate: No one calls it. It's the I call it ads that no one calls it. It's. Oh. Joe: Oh, good. Nate: No, Joe: So Nate: It's very. Joe: What's your what's your handle on Instagram? Nate: Oh, no. Joe: Oh, man, I'll I'll find Nate: Shut up, Joe: It and put it Nate: Shut Joe: In the show Nate: Up. Joe: Notes. Nate: Wait, wait, wait. No, I think it's just. I think it's in in as inmate eight, the number eight D. Are you Amzi in eight D. Are you M z. I think that's me on Instagram. It's also my license plate. Oh, hey, buddy, sorry. So so the band was having a rehearsal at center staging. And my license plate on my SUV says in eight D-R, UMC meat drums. And there were some other band there and I can't remember who the artist was. But like the drummer and the guitar player of that band came over to our rehearsal. I was hanging out. And you know how it is. Musicians know, what is this? The voice. Oh, what are you doing? I'm doing this gig. And so the drummer talks to me and says, Oh, you know, you're the drummer on The Voice. What's your name? Nate anymore. Oh, Nate. Nate. Oh, is that your car in the parking lot? This is Nate drums on the license plate. I was like, yeah. And like, literally, I swear to God, that's because. I could be an atriums like like I felt like I needed to have a gig Joe: Right. Nate: Of a stature that would allow me to Joe: The Nate: Have the mic. Joe: Name Nate: And Joe: On Nate: They Joe: Your Nate: Trust. Joe: License plate. Perfect. Nate: Oh, yes. I was like, oh, you're so young, like young, you Joe: Oh, Nate: Know? Joe: Good. Nate: But he was funny. He was funny. All right. You could be aid drops was like, thanks. Joe: That's so Nate: Next year, Joe: Funny. It's awesome. Nate: Let me just give like a.. Joe: Yeah. Nate: Ok. Joe: Oh, God. Nate: David, he was girl. Of course. And of course, I looked him up and he's like, you know, what are these killing young drummers? There's so many bands. There's so many of those incredible guys Joe: Yeah, Nate: Just playing all that stuff. Joe: Well, cool. Nate: And I go, boom, boom, boom bap. Joe: Yeah, well, no, you don't, but you can say that if you want. You do a lot more Nate: It's Joe: Than that. Nate: True. Joe: So how about Nate: Well. Joe: Facebook? Do you know where they find you on Facebook? Nate: Yeah, sure, Facebook dot com slash Nate Morton drums. Joe: Perfect. So we did Instagram, Facebook. You have a website. Nate: I don't have an actual Web site. The closest thing I have is probably the for profit scam Joe: Ok, cool. Nate: Site. Joe: Ok. Nate: And what else we got? Joe: I assume Nate: Facebook. Joe: You don't hang out on Twitter or do you? Nate: You know what? So here's the thing. And I'm just being honest right now, it is being real. Somewhere along the line, I intentionally or unintentionally linked my Instagram to my Twitter. So it seems like whatever I put on Instagram winds up on Twitter. Or maybe it's my Facebook. But no, I'm not really active on Twitter. So if you actually want to catch up with me, find me on Facebook and I'm easy and like I'm not always the fastest to get back, but I get back to people. So if you find me on Facebook, dot com slash Nate Morton drums and you follow me there, you send me a message, whatever, whatever. I'm going to find it eventually. I'm gonna get back to you because it bugs me. My OCD would be bother. I can't look at a message and like, just delete it. Like, I look at it and I go back to that. So even so, if it's a it's over a day or a week or a month. I do my very best to get back. Joe: I'm sure. Nate: And and and you can always go, like super old school and just email me at an eight D argue Amzi at EarthLink thought that. Joe: Cool. And then really important is your YouTube page. Nate: Oh, I asked ask you to recite Joe: No. Nate: It. Joe: I'll put it in the show notes. But do you have more? Do you have your name? One and then. Is it the nake? Nate: No, no, it's just one. Joe: So it's the one Nate: It's Joe: With Nate: Just Joe: The Nate: One. Joe: Nait can. Like all the stuff. The Nate: Yeah, Joe: Voice videos. Nate: Yeah, it's all Joe: Right. Nate: On the same. That's all Joe: Ok, Nate: The same. Joe: Cool. Nate: Yes, that's all the same channel and it's YouTube dot com slash. See, like the letter C slash. Nate Morton drums, Joe: Perfect. Nate: Youtube dotcom Joe: See, Nate: Slash Joe: Nate Martin jumps. Nate: C slash O C anymore and drums. Oh, wow. Joe: There you go. Nate: I kind of just got that. Again, I swear. Joe: Oh. I think I should actually put some, like, cool Jeffs Nate: Yes, Joe: On the Nate: Yes, Joe: Video like that, lower Nate: Yes. Joe: Your head, just explode like the top flies off. Nate: I think Joe: All right. Endorsement's. Nate: If. You're awesome, Joe. Joe: Say always thinking. Nate: That's my endorsement. That's my words. Joe: No, no, Nate: That's my judgment. Joe: No. Nate: You said endorsements, Joe, your incredible. Joe: Yeah, well, you're amazing. But that's not Nate: What Joe: What you know. Nate: Does that mean? OK. So I am very, very fortunate to be affiliated with some really awesome companies. I'm afraid to say them all because like. I'm afraid to forget one and then Joe: Oh, I know. OK, Nate: So, so, so, so it's OK to put it in the Joe: I put in Nate: In Joe: The show. Nate: The text. Joe: Yeah. Is there anything else that I missed that you wanted to talk about? You know, I don't want to leave anything out. Nate: You know what? That's that's that's interesting, you should ask. And I will just I will just say this. I have it's going to be really weird. I'm going to go a little a little go a little left, Joe. Joe: That's Nate: And I Joe: Right. Nate: Know if you're expecting this Joe: That's Nate: Or not. Joe: Ok. Nate: I have six kids. I have a wife. Her name is Nicole, and outside of all of this, the show stuff and the gigs and this audition and that audition and this tour and that artist in that venue and that TV show and all of those things are amazing. I have to say that. I find my motivation and I find myself. Looking back on what is most important and all of those things are great. In the sense that. They allow me to do the things that I want to do with my family. Does that make sense? Joe: Absolutely. Nate: Know, I don't mean to be fruity or anything. It's just it's like I spend I spend a little bit of time getting to do things like this, like chatting to you. And I talk about drumhead to talk about music on the show. And I just never want to lose sight of the fact that within that world. I take a lot of pride and I put a lot of import on being able to spend time with my kids and my family as well. And one of the biggest words in our industry or in my life. I'll speak very small scale. One of the biggest words in my life is balance. And so while it may look from the outside, like the balance is completely shifted to all of that, there's also the other side, which is that you've also got allow yourself time to like spend time with your gnarly four year old to drive you crazy because she's insane or you're a two year old who might fall off the trampoline if you don't zip the thing closed. Or my 13 year old who has a tennis lesson or who can't play tennis right now. So I take him to Home Depot so he can hit on the on the wall or my 17 year old who I drag into the lounge room to play a game of chess with me or my 19 year old who is away at college while he's home. Now, who I communicate with and go, how's things going in your pursuits? You know. Or my. I left on my eight year old. Who? Who is it? Eight year old teenager. She's eight, but she's already a teenager. Isabelle, could that have a hug? Okay. Joe: Fine. Nate: You know, so. So it's like I don't mean to get too cheesy, but, you know, a long time ago, a great and dear friend of mine, Tony de Augustine, said the hardest thing about creating a career as a professional musician is finding a balance. And I said, a balance between what? And he said a balance between everything. And at the time, I was in my early 20s and I was like, what? What does that mean? And the older I get and every day, every week, month, year that goes by, I really do get it. It's a balance between. Gigs that you love. Gigs that pay the bills. Being gone on tour, making money and supporting your family. Seeing your family. Working hard and, you know, doing whatsoever versus having to work, but making yourself spend time doing things that are important otherwise. So again, I don't mean to get too cosmic with all of this, but yeah, I just want to make mention of that. I just wanted to make mention the fact that. Again. Certainly. Certainly way back again to Sharon, what's her name? Who said you don't sound very well rounded? I said I'm focused. Well, now I've adapted that focus. And that focus is, you know, to fill the time, music and and creativity and doing that side of things. But it's also in focus on Family and spending time with the wife and the kids. All those people who put up with me, Joe: Yeah. Nate: You know, all those little people who call me dad, I'm like, what? Joe: Yeah. Yeah. You have such a great Nate: And Joe: Family. Nate: My wife and my wife and the wife who puts up with me, the wife. Joe: Yes. Nate: I couldn't. I couldn't I couldn't be in my studio working 10 hours a day without her. Joe: No. Nate: I couldn't jump in my car and drive in the universal and work, you know, 80 hours a week without her. Joe: Go Nate: Right. Joe: Get. Nate: So. So those people are important and those people create the balance that that that makes my life really fucking cool. Joe: You deserve, brother. It's. I am honored to call you a friend. I am so glad we met. I don't even know how it happened. I, I know that we were both at one of those drum get togethers. It was a remote village in something. Nate: Yes, sure, probably, yeah. Joe: And I saw you as I was leaving and I handed you a card. And I had this funny slogan on the back of the card. And I was like a block and a half away already. And you're like, Hey dude, I love your card. Nate: It's Joe: It was really funny Nate: Like Joe: Like Nate: Me Joe: That. Nate: That Joe: Yeah. Nate: Sounds Joe: And Nate: Like me. Joe: Then it just it went from there and all the other stuff. So I appreciate you so much and I can't wait to Nate: I Joe: See Nate: Appreciate Joe: You in Nate: You. Joe: Person Nate: I appreciate Joe: Again. Nate: It. Joe: Please give. Nate: Hopefully soon. Joe: Yeah, I know. Please give my love to your family. Nate: We'll Joe: And Nate: Do, buddy, and you Joe: Yeah I will. Nate: And you. Joe: I will. And I really appreciate your time. And this is awesome. And thanks so much. Nate: Joe, absolutely my pleasure. And thank you for having me on. Joe: All right, brother, I appreciate it. You take care.

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Joe Morgan '81

Mission-Driven

Play Episode Listen Later Apr 13, 2020 59:41

Luke Knox ’22 speaks with Joe Morgan ‘81 about what it takes to be a successful entrepreneur, and how his Holy Cross education prepared him to lead with integrity. Recorded on January 28, 2020 --- Transcript Joe: So, the experiences that I had at Holy Cross created tremendous friendships but also expanded my mind and allowed me to get into situations that are uncomfortable for me, but then find a place for me within that circumstance. And I think a lot of times that I see people that don't have that background, they get into a circumstance, they get fixed on their belief, and they can't participate in critical thinking. And critical thinking is the essence of what I believe Jesuit education's all about, is it puts you on a circumstance where you are given the tools, but then almost expected to participate in a broader discussion. And as soon as you get stubborn and dig in, unless of course you're in a debate, you lose the opportunity, I think, to take full advantage of the Holy Cross education. Maura: Welcome to Mission-Driven where we speak with alumni who are leveraging their Holy Cross education to make a meaningful difference in the world around them. I'm your host, Maura Sweeney from the Class of 2007, Director of Alumni Career Development at Holy Cross. I'm delighted to welcome you to today's show. Maura: This episode features Joe Morgan from the Class of 1981, a self-proclaimed poster child of Worcester higher education, Joe is a Worcester native who attended Holy Cross, WPI, and Clark University. After beginning his career as an engineer, he quickly rose through the ranks to serve as President of Sony Chemicals Corporation of America. From there, he pursued corporate roles at numerous private and public companies. At each stage, he used his influence in the C-Suite to lead with the values that he learned in his Jesuit Holy Cross education. Maura: Luke Knox from the Class of 2022 speaks with Joe about his decision to start his own company in November 2016 called siY. Be safe. Be inspired. Be you. As an entrepreneur himself, Luke speaks with Joe about best practices in business and management. Throughout the conversation, Joe touts the importance of leading with empathy in order to transform individuals, teams, and corporations. Luke: Welcome, everyone. I'm Luke Knox, a sophomore economics major. Today I have the pleasure of speaking with Joe Morgan, Holy Cross Class of 1981. Joe, it's great to have you on today. Thank you for coming onto the show. Joe: Thanks for inviting me, Luke. Glad to be here. Luke: No problem. Yeah. Luke: Starting off, you were a chemistry major when you were at Holy Cross, and in addition to receiving a Bachelor of Arts from here, you also earned your Bachelor of Science degree from Worcester Polytechnic Institute (WPI) and an MBA from Clark University. It sounds like you've been educated by really the top institutions of Worcester. Joe: Right. So, I often refer to myself as the poster child of higher education in Worcester. There's actually a little bit of extra data on those choices though. I started as a math major at Holy Cross. My dad was a math major, so dutiful son, I wanted to do what my dad did. But then I didn't like it, so I became a chemistry major. And then there was a 3/2 program with WPI, and I like scale, big scale instead of beakers and labs, so I didn't really like the experimental side of chemistry, so I went and got a chemical engineering degree at WPI. And then I needed a business degree in order to do what I do, which I'm sure we're going to talk about. Luke: Yeah, we'll get to that. That's great. Worcester, obviously, grew up in Worcester. Great schools here. It's nice to see that homegrown and experiencing all that Worcester has to offer. And I know that, from being a chemistry major at Holy Cross, now you're getting your MBA and you're running businesses, you're obviously a very highly motivated individual. And in your opinion, what would you say your personal mission is and how does that drive you in the work you do? Joe: Well, I think when I was growing up, my parents focused on a few things. One was faith, certainly, and the other was education. So they invested a lot of time in both of those. And when you have strong faith and then you've spent your time in education, you get exposed to a lot of thought process, honestly. And so what my mission is, and it does reflect back probably to my family, which is the third thing my parents focused on, is giving back to people that don't have the benefit of the things that you've been given. Joe: And so I spent a lot of time thinking about that with kid is really a passion for me. The impoverished is another thing I'm deeply passionate about. Joe: But I would say what's interesting now for me more so than ever before, I've run a lot of bigger companies, and now I have my own company, which we'll chat about. But we're at a time I think in our world and our country where we can't seem to get to a common agenda. And so, I have a mission or a passion now to help people see the possibilities of that. Because leadership is daily providing a platform for hope, but then wrapping it with reality. And that's what I spend my time on each day and more. Joe: There's a thing called The Bridge that I've developed with some folks, and we can chat a little bit about that, but that's the essence of my focus now is to help people see the possibilities, but deep down inside for me, it's the kids. It's just making sure that that next generation can see the possibilities of the future. And I don't think today in every case that is true, so that's something that me and others like me are spending time on. Luke: And that same thought process intertwines right with the Holy Cross mission statement- Joe: Right. Luke: ... men and women for others. Joe: Right. Luke: And could you speak a little more about how that... being at Holy Cross and going by that motto, how that has also affected you and your life decisions? Joe: You know what? I was chatting this morning about this, is I think growing up in a Catholic education is a lot of memorization that takes place. And I think if you don't get stressed about trying to memorize all the things about Jesuit education and the mission and the vision and all, but just live it, let it penetrate you, then I think the possibilities of living what you just said comes to be. Joe: So, the experiences that I had at Holy Cross created tremendous friendships but also expanded my mind and allowed me to get into situations that are uncomfortable for me, but then find a place for me within that circumstance. And I think a lot of times that I see people that don't have that background, they get into a circumstance, they get fixed on their belief, and they can't participate in critical thinking. And critical thinking is the essence of what I believe Jesuit education's all about, is it puts you on a circumstance where you are given the tools, but then almost expected to participate in a broader discussion. And as soon as you get stubborn and dig in, unless of course you're in a debate, you lose the opportunity, I think, to take full advantage of the Holy Cross education. Joe: Now where that's taken me in my career, you mentioned WPI and the 3/2 program, I always say that Holy Cross helped me get every job that I have because I learned communication skills, I learned adaptation. WPI allowed me to advance in technical fields because of the process expertise that I was able to glean through that particular education. And that combination was really powerful for me. Luke: And going back to what you were saying about communication skills, I think when I was thinking about my own choices on where I wanted to go to school, I definitely wanted to go somewhere like Holy Cross where I could learn those crucial communication skills. And I know that being in business, being an entrepreneur, how like you were just saying, how really important being able to present yourself and effectively communicate with others, how important that is to not only sell a product, but to grow a business. I was wondering if you could speak more about that and how you've used your communication skill to further your career? Joe: On the communications side, simplicity is so, so important. I am sure as you've gone through your entrepreneurial journey you probably got way too complex at the start, and people have advised you to make it simple, simple, simple. The one-pager, whatever they've told you, and it's true. Because people can't absorb more than that generally. And as the entrepreneur, as the person with the idea, you know way more than they do, and you're trying to engage them just a little bit in what you do so that they'll help you, whether you want money or you want them to buy the product or you want advocacy, whatever that might me, on the communications side, simple, simple, simple. But then also be really clear on knowing your audience. What is it that you want from them or need from them or desire from them and focus only on that. Don't make it broader because you'll lose them. And I think a lot of entrepreneurs that I'm around, they get so passionate about what they do, they lose sight of why they're in this particular conversation and dialog. So that would be one thing. Joe: The other thing is the issue of courage. You have to be somewhat courageous to be an entrepreneur. That doesn't mean that you're necessarily saving lives or something like that. You might, depending upon what you do, but you really do have to have courage because as I'm sure, you can share this with the group too, the audience, is there's a lot of negative that comes from entrepreneurialism. You get a lot of feedback that hurts. And how fast do you respond to that is going to be important. Your resilience quotient is really, really important because if you get stubborn and say, "I don't really care what you said to me. I'm just going to continue to do what I was doing." Probably shouldn't take that approach. There's some value in every input that you get. Joe: The other, probably the third part of this is trust. Be really careful who you look to for trust. If someone doesn't have your interest in mind, it's really all about them, then you're probably not going to get good advice. So that's the other part. So, you want to focus on being courageous, learn a lot, but then your advice, and then always, always, always be simple. Luke: And I think it's super important as an entrepreneur, and I'm sure that you realize this as well, is that when you receive that, it always happens you're going to receive negative criticism. And I think me personally, in my own experience, I've taken that really, not as an opportunity to be bitter, but to be better and to realize, okay, it's really important to view every single opinion that's coming at me with, whether you have a product or a business or you're offering a service, anything like that, and to use it to every day learn more about yourself, learn more about what you want to do, your product, whatever, and use that to help you out in that business setting the next day. Joe: Right. Luke: Stuff like that. Joe: Well, I think, you're an entrepreneur, so when you start a business, it's probably your money. So- Luke: Yeah, it is. Joe: ... people that are around you, it's not their money. So it's easy to spend someone's money if it's not your money. And then time is all you have. So if you waste your time and waste your money, you're not going to have the opportunity to create something of value from your ideas. So really what's important is keeping it simple, but then taking the input from people that you trust and adapting quickly so that you can use whatever resource you have, which I think for... As I'm an entrepreneur too, you end up just with a little bit of time and a little bit of money, and if you use it right, you can turn it into more time and more money. If you use it badly, then it spirals. So, I'm sure you've experienced that. Joe: I think the other part of entrepreneurialism too is at some point you want whatever you're doing to grow, and at that point you're going to bring in other people. Learning how to trust other people is really a big deal, and I actually think that gets back to your first question about Holy Cross, is you believe in the mission, which I think we do or we wouldn't be sitting here, and you are a good judge of people, you always have to validate, you can bring people in far more easily than people that don't have belief in others. And you'll never be able to get the benefit of what your idea is if you can't eventually bring people into the conversation. Joe: I have been the intrepreneur a number of times working for entrepreneurs early in my career, and I actually never asked the question, but they trusted me enough to let me do the things on their behalf because they knew that they couldn't scale it beyond their own means. But I've also seen entrepreneurs that don't trust anybody, and it's a problem because their idea's great, but who wants to work in an environment where you're not trusted? Where every day you think, "Oh my gosh, you've taken something from me?" That's not helpful. So what happens then is people leave. The really good ones leave and then they get marginalized and the business never really achieves what it set out to do. Joe: So that would be a piece of advice for you because I hope that what you're doing just explodes- Luke: Thank you. Yeah. Joe: ... but you're going to have to bring in other people when you do it, you know? Luke: Yeah. And we're kind of in that process right now where we're really building a team. And I know that one of your skills is being able to do that and build a successful team. And if you just had to list off a couple of big characteristics that every team regardless of what business they're in or whatever, what are those main characteristics that every team kind of needs to have? Joe: I thought you were going to ask me a different question, so I'm going to answer the one I thought you were going to ask me, and then I will answer... Joe: I think the first thing to build a team is you have to know what you are good at. So get a white board and write that down. Don't write it in a notebook. Put it on the wall and then walk past it for a few days and make sure that you're being honest with yourself. Don't put it in a notebook, close it, stick it somewhere that you'll never go retrieve it. Put it on a wall. And then let a couple people that you know that actually care about you look at it and say, "You know what, Luke, I don't agree with that. You think you're really good at that but you're actually not." And so move that to the other one which is, whatever the right term is, deficiency or something that I can improve. But be really clear on the three to five things that you're really great at, but then also compare that to what you're most passionate about. Joe: If you could spend the amount of time that you spend on entrepreneurialism, what part of that do you love the most? And if you could spend all your time doing that, because that's likely to equate to value. Once you get that right, now you can start filling in the spots. And don't think about it so much functionally, although eventually you have to have competency in the functions. Think about it in terms of behaviors and values. You've got to get people with the same values as yourself, and they have to be able to articulate that and then demonstrate it. So that's one. Joe: The second one is the behaviors which are different. Values are aligned in the sand. Integrity, think honesty, things like that. Behaviors are when faced with a pressure situation, I scream and yell. That's a behavior. Luke: Right. Joe: I'm guessing you probably don't want that around. Luke: No. Yeah. Joe: You want somebody that's going to get on the balls of their feet and participate and dig in. That's a behavior that you might want in your business. So I'd be really clear on who you are, where you like to spend your time, get the attitudes and the behaviors and the values right. Joe: Now you can talk about financial. So if you're going to scale your business, you're an economics major so you have some reasonable financial understanding, but you do have to have financial expertise in your business so people can cover your back so you can do all those great things you want to do. Joe: Without sales, we don't have a business, so that may be your strength, but you might be the idea person. You may be the product manager, whatever that strength is. So if you need sales and you need finance, make sure that you've got really strong people in the marketplace that you're in. Now you could have a pure online business in which case you need somebody with e-commerce expertise. Whatever that core thing is, get the best you can, and whatever you think you can afford, pay a little more. Because what tends to happen, I see a lot of times with entrepreneurs is you scale it back just a little bit, and you want people to feel like you do, but they're not going to because it's not their business. Luke: Good point. Yeah. Joe: So, don't ever be misguided by a person's individual passion to be an employee versus an entrepreneur. They're different. They're just different. So I think it's really about who the person is first, and then you get to the acumen. Because I'm on a lot of boards with people and I meet some people that are just misaligned on the behaviors and the values, but they're wicked smart. And I can tell you the wicked smart does not trump values and behaviors ever. Eventually that is going to catch up, and it's I would... that's kind of the pecking order that I would recommend. Luke: Yeah, values and behavior, definitely. Joe: Always. Joe: And it depends on what you need in your business too. I don't know the details of your company, but you have to be clear on what competencies are most critical to you. Luke: Great point. And then being a leader in those teams, I know in one of your most recent articles, you talk about having the ability to really fully understand what's going on in somebody's life and how that might affect them in the workplace and outside of it. Joe: Right. Luke: Being a leader in a team and definitely being a leader in a startup company, how do you think that, myself or you, how do you go about that with being compassionate and empathetic towards your employees, your partners, people in your company? Joe: Well, this gets to curiosity. I was asked recently in an article, what do truly curious people do? It's not questions. It's about answers. So you're asking me questions right now. You're curious about those, I can tell by this conversation. But if you were just asking questions and you don't really care what I say, we're not going to have a very productive conversation. Luke: Right. Joe: And you're not going to demonstrate any compassion. Or interest, actually. Joe: So, I think the most important thing is that first question or two that you ask in any interaction. Demonstrate that you actually about the person. So for example, we've faced some tragedy here at Holy Cross recently and I am quite confident that people that were closest to that, if you tried to have a conversation about something other than that circumstance, it would be very, very difficult for them. And you might have planned for weeks, months, maybe even six months, a year, to have a particular meeting with someone that might have been close to that situation, and you want to talk about your product. And you know what? They don't want to talk about your product. They're dealing with something that is just life changing and devastating to them. And if you have no ability to be sympathetic to that, then how are you possibly ever going to connect with them? Joe: And that's one of the things I've learned in my career is you can plan and prepare as an entrepreneur, as a business owner, for that sale or that interaction, but what happened just before that person walked in the room is going to affect whether that interaction that have been planning for is successful or not. And so we need to draw that out. We need to not take it personally if they're not involved in the meeting. Something awful might have happened. Joe: I'll tell you a small story. My daughter was sick, and she was diagnosed with mono when she was in high school. And I was in a board meeting and my office was attached to the board room. And I had a board member that was very high personality and I'm a high personality too, and so he and I would often get into these challenges of one another. And as CEO, I'm supposed to accept that, and generally I did, and I kind of facilitated it. But when I heard my daughter was sick, my energy and my life is driven by my children and my wife, and so when I heard that I was just really affected by it. And so of course I walked into the board room moments after that, and within 15 minutes he was, not attacking, but he was on me again, and to me that was a game-on moment. And my back went up and I leaned in, and it was one of the most intense interactions of my career. Joe: Did I say anything inappropriate? No. Could I have taken a different track? For sure. Could you have heard a pin drop in the room? Absolutely. And he and I went at it, and then afterward he finally asked me what was different about today, and I said, "Here's why." "So why didn't you tell me that?" I said, "You never asked a question. You've never asked me a question about me ever." Joe: And so that to me is one of the largest demonstrations. You can have tremendous people around you, but if you never ask them anything about them, how you possibly going to get the most out of the relationship? You won't. So that would be most advice is really get the questions right, and really care about the answers. And then once you know the answers, if the meeting that you were going to have isn't possible now, talk about the other thing. Go there. Joe: I will say this though. There's a lot of conversation about empathy right now. I think empathy is one of the most difficult things. Pure definition, I see the world as you do. I think that's really, really hard, but I do think if you listen to people and have the right conversation, you can get closer and closer to their life experiences. But I think empathy is one of the most challenging things in the world. Luke: And it sounds like from what you're saying, a huge part in working with clients or working with your team is having a relationship with them- Joe: Yeah. Sure. Luke: ... and like a pure relationship. And I definitely agree with you that that understanding and that ability to emphasize with people, granted it is very difficult to do that, but putting your effort into that shows and people definitely can appreciate that. Joe: So for you, what is your favorite place on campus here? Luke: My favorite place? Probably Cool Beans. Joe: Cool Beans. Why? Luke: It's just a place where usually I'm studying in the science library or Dinand, and it's just like a place where go back, get a coffee, kind of decompress and just kind of enjoy myself for a little bit before I go back to studying. Joe: So it's comforting to you, right? Luke: Yeah. Definitely. Joe: It allows you... Do you think better there? Luke: Yeah. I do. Joe: So that's really interesting question, isn't it? Luke: Yeah, it is. Joe: So if I want to have a- Luke: It is. Yeah. Joe: ... really interesting conversation with you, that would be the place we should go. Luke: True. Joe: We shouldn't go where I want to go. If I want to have a conversation about you, then I need to find where you're most comfortable. And then let's go there. Joe: So here's an interesting thing. When I was first a manager, there were all these books about management, leadership, and... I had some managers that, "We're going to adopt this book." You know what? That's not really what we should do. Think about Holy Cross. When you read all these books we read, you're only two years in and I was here for four years. I didn't commit to memory everything I read, but I adapted my life to certain principles that I learned, and then I paid attention to the professors who have read far more than I ever would read about a specific topic. I wasn't trying to memorize all of it or have my life guided verbatim with everything I learned. It was really about this will help me shape it. Joe: So there was this thing called manage by walking around. So, okay. We're going to manage by walking around, which was about visibility. People would get feedback that managers weren't visible, so we have to be more visible. So what managers would do... I wasn't a manager. I was becoming a manager. They would just appear. So what would your reaction be if you're in the middle of doing something and a person that you never see suddenly appears? What would your reaction be do you think? Luke: I would probably be first, like if it was my boss or something that came over, I would definitely make sure I was really paying attention to everything I'm doing and doing it the best I can, and then try to get some type of one-on-one interaction with them if I never see them and kind of put a face to their name. Joe: So you're taking the burden of that. It's supposed to be them making you feel good, and you're feeling like you have your change your behaviors- Luke: Work harder and- Joe: Yeah. Exactly. Luke: ... yeah. Yeah. You feel on the spot. Yeah. Joe: Precisely. I was annoyed because I don't... they weren't adding any value to me. So I thought that was really... to be honest with you, I thought that was stupid, a really stupid guiding principle. So I think management by walking together is better. Joe: So what I do and have done is I go get somebody and say, "Let's go take a walk." And it's fascinating what happens when you take a walk with someone versus sitting in a small space with someone. There's a lot going on. You can point out things, say, "Hey." It's just more comforting, more casual, and so that's the way I began doing it. And I learned so much about people getting, again, closer to empathy by walking with them as opposed to walking into their environment and hovering over them and making them feel like I was participating, when in fact, I really wasn't. Joe: I didn't do it but once or twice. I thought it was foolish, and then I did this other thing. It was really great. So that's how I did my one-on-ones and my up-to-speeds and all that stuff with people, which was great. Luke: Because sometimes in my opinion, it can feel like if you have a boss hovering over you, it almost feels like they're micromanaging you. And that kind of makes you feel a little degraded and kind of, "Hey, I can do my job. I don't need him watching over me." Joe: Right. Luke: And I think that's a great idea of walking around with whoever is in your company and really, like I was saying, building that relationship with them. Joe: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah, because it's... You break barriers that way. Joe: I had a guy that worked for me, 6'7", and I used to get feedback that he would be intimidating sometimes. He's the nicest guy, and what he would do is he would walk up to someone when they were sitting at their desk and he'd lean over them. He was like Godzilla. And they would be so intimidated by his size, but he was the nicest guy. And all I told him to do was just sit down. Just sit down with them. And then he... And that barrier went away. It was fine. But he just, he wasn't intimidating, but he... intending to be intimidating. Luke: And building that relationship and how have you as a leader within the company that you're starting right now, siY, how have you adopted those same principles into, hey, now you're the CEO. Now you're running this company. You're at the very top. How have you done that as the head of this company? Joe: The truth of that is when you're running a big company like I've had the fortune of doing, you have a platform. I have employed large numbers of employees that work for me and if there's something that I want to convey, get across, I have resources all over the place. I don't have that now. I have a virtual company essentially. And so, I have a large group of executives that I have great regard for that work as part of my network. I have some other people that subcontract work to me. So my influence has to be demonstrated in a very, very different way. Joe: So I'm on the front end of the business creating demand for what we do at siY, and then engaging these folks as independent people. But they buy into the mission. It goes back to what I said before, we have values in our company, we have behavioral expectations, and then we have a vision to create environments where dialog leads to impact. It's not to create a dialog, but it's actually to have an impact. And everybody agrees with that. Joe: So we go together in our own walks of life, not associated entirely to siY, but when we come together, that's who we are. So it's a very different experience for me, but one that has yielded so many incredible situations that I wouldn't have otherwise been able to do. Luke: At siY, could you tell me a little more about what you do? Joe: Sure. Luke: How you got the name? Joe: Let me tell you the story on the name because I think that really kind of demonstrates my career journey. When I came out of WPI, I was a chemical engineer. That was 1983. Market wasn't so good. Economy was rough. So I ended up taking a job as a buyer. And I figured, my father always said, "You may not be the biggest," which I'm not, "you may not be the smartest," I'm not, "but no one should ever out work you." So I figured if I get a job, I'll just work really, really hard and then I'll create opportunities for myself. Which I was fortunate to do. Joe: And the first big job I got was a safety engineer. So, I was working at a chemical plant focused on safety. And what I found was that the mechanism of creating a safe environment for people was vital to being successful in business, but attitudes and behavior were so important in order for that environment to actually be created. Joe: So the first part of be safe was physical safety. And then I experienced that, and then I also had experiences as a manager, and I realized that emotional safety is also very important. Going back to that conversation we had just a few moments ago, people have stuff going on in their lives. It's actually okay to cry and laugh. Don't judge people because they have emotion. Actually try and help them leverage their emotion in a positive way. So emotional safety was really, really important. I always say every person who's ever worked for me has cried at some point, not because I'm yelling or mean to them, but because they have something going on in their life and they need to express it. Joe: The other one is people are really, really smart and they have a lot of experiences. They may be different experiences, but I respect you, Luke, for what you've done already. And those experiences that you have and your intellect, I need to learn from you just as you're learning from me. But a lot of people don't do that because you don't have my experience. You don't have gray hair yet. So therefore, your experiences aren't really relevant. Not true. Absolutely not true. Luke: Right. Joe: So the other one is intellectual safety. I need to create an environment where you can feel that whatever experience and intellect you have can be applied. So those are three parts. Joe: I started with a triangle, and then I realized cyber safety is very, very important in the world we're in today. Having had my identification stolen, I know that personally. So now I call that the safety diamond. So physical, intellectual, emotional, and cyber safety. So we talk about that. So be safe. Inspired is... I'm not an alarm clock. You have to get out of bed in the morning, but then I'm going to ask you one question. What are you most passionate about? That question I ask you, if you could spend all of your time doing something, what would it be? And once you tell me that, if you're willing to tell me that, let's focus on that and I'll inspire the hell out of you to be able to go after that dream. I will push you in ways that will allow you to live that dream. That's the inspired part. Joe: And then you, in my company it's YOU, there's something about you, maybe more than one thing, that's truly unique. It's not that you're an economics major. There's a lot of economics majors. There's something about you, and let's find out what that is and let's celebrate that. So create a safe environment, find your passion, inspire you to continue to peck away at that every day, and then celebrate what's unique about you, that's be safe; be inspired; be you. Joe: The logo of my company is a wave. I grew up going to Maine in the summer. Surfed a little bit. Always found that the whole surfing thing, you have to work really, really hard. You have to be strategic to choose when to go. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. And if it doesn't work, then you... some people get mad and they leave, but you just go back out until you get that. And when you get that wave, it is the best feeling in the world. Luke: It's great, yeah. Joe: It is absolutely one of the best feelings ever, and that's why the wave's there. And the blue is the eyes of my kids. And so every time I look at it, I see my children, which is the source of a great deal of energy for me. Luke: Totally. Joe: So that's why that's where that is. And my daughter designed it for me. And she's a Holy Cross grad. Luke: Oh nice. Joe: So, be safe; be inspired; be you; that's how that all came together, and where that comes to live is we do advisory work for small to mid-sized companies, and we help them... we bring people with experiences that they normally wouldn't be able to access due to the size of their company, and we help them do things with strategy, culture, and... sometimes it's the finances and the business, but it's always strategy and culture. But everything we do starts with people. And if we are not allowed to interact with the people, we can't do business with them because that's where it all starts. So, that's what we do. Luke: That's nice. Yeah. A consulting firm for- Joe: Yeah, we do advisory consulting. Luke: Yeah, for those small companies who might not be able to access- Joe: That's right. Luke: ... the resources of a large consulting firm like McKinsey or something like that. Joe: Right. With have the skills of companies, the larger companies, but we do it at a point where, price point, and also a participation point that's a little different. Luke: And back to what you were saying about... personal interaction and culture, do you mean the culture within that said company? Joe: Yes. But that's a great question because culture is all about interactions. And so, interactions are not just the employees or the team or whatever the term is for the company; it's really whoever you interact with. So there's a supplier interaction. There's a customer interaction. There's a community interaction. And if it's a privately held business, there's a family interaction. So you have to be concerned and confident in all of those things. Joe: We take an operator's view. So we try and sit on the side of the table of the owner or the leaders, and that's how we come at it every day. We don't come in with a mechanism, we're going to say, "This is how you do it." We're going to adapt our business to... or excuse me, our approach to what is most appropriate for the company that we're doing business with. And we're not for everybody because not everybody wants to share everything about what they do. Luke: Very true. Luke: So essentially, reiterating, you go in. For each different client you work with, do you attack that operation differently? Like so for company X, you might advise them this way, but then for this company, you're doing it in a different way. Do you approach each person you work with the same, or do you kind of take it as a case-by-case scenario? Joe: I would say... That's a great, that's a very good question because I think there has to be somewhat of an approach that's consistent- Luke: Sure. Yeah. Joe: ... or you can never scale it. So there is a... It always starts with an assessment. So, I always meet with the CEO. I would say 9 out of 10 times I interact with the board, if there is one. Most of the time there is. And then I talk to the most senior leaders of the company. And then I walk the business with them, going back to my walking thing. I want to see the business myself. Because sometimes people describe the business to you in a room, and then you go out, and like that is not at all what's going on here. So you get a really good sense right away how people react to people. Joe: So for example, I have had numerous situations where a CEO would tell me, "I am absolutely connected with the employees of the company." And then they walk out there, and everybody turns away as they walk in. And so that's not... So they're missing something there. Joe: So it's really, the assessment is, tell me about your business. Let me talk to some people so that I can balance it. Let's go for a walk. And then let's come back. I'll give you some observations and some thoughts on it. And from there, let's build a plan. What is it that you need to do? Joe: And it could be that we help people kind of restate their vision. We help people understand the value system that actually exists within their business. Have they been consistent there? And spend some time on the truths of the company. What is it that is actually going on here? And then from there, I would say that all the time there's a transformation happening in the business. Joe: If you go back to the first question you asked me about Holy Cross and the Jesuits, that it's evolution. It's about evolution, evolving as people. And that's what happens in companies too. You may have a great idea as an entrepreneur but it's not going to last forever. In fact, in your lifetime- Luke: Very true. Yeah. Joe: ... ideas come and go far more quickly than they did when I was starting at your age. So, we have to be aware of those changes, and we spend a lot of time with preparing the company for a transformative change. Joe: So for example, if you have a product that's been great, you've made money, and then suddenly it's starting to decline, well, it could be that the team that you have around you is really good for that, but where you need to go, it's not. So we come in as a third party and help you see the things that you wouldn't otherwise see. Joe: Because it's hard. Change is very difficult, especially when it becomes personal. Sometimes people aren't the right people and you have to help them see that, and if they can change, great. If they can't, then maybe you need to get someone different. So we do that too. We help people do it. Joe: But we try and work with companies that are probably between 50 million and a billion and a half to two billion in size. And we always work with the most senior people in the company. And we get in early, and then we help create plans, and generally we'll stay for maybe six months, and then if they want us to operate, we will, but generally, they don't. Joe: And then I have a lot of clients personally that I work with the CEO in an advisory capacity and I'm kind of a confidant to them. So we spend time talking about the business and I get to help them. Because CEO jobs are very lonely, and so they don't have anybody to talk to, so I become that person for them. So, that's just Joe Morgan. It's part of siY, but it's not the total focus. Luke: And going back to your Holy Cross education, were there any times when you were at Holy Cross or any other school in Worcester where you thought about wanting to do that in the future? Wanting to be in this line of work that you're currently in? Joe: I'll tell you, my parents were schoolteachers so we didn't talk about business. But if I was honest about it, if I go back to my first job, if I had been aware of what I was actually doing, I think the answer would have been yes, but I wasn't. I worked. I made money. I wanted... My wife and I went to Holy Cross. We got married in 1983. We've been married for 36 years. Love of my life and my best friend. Very, very fortunate. But I thought about I need a job. I'm going to advance. Hopefully as I advance, I'll get more responsibility, but I don't think it was until I got exposed to presidents of companies that I realized there was a better way. And it was at that time when I was in my late 20s where I thought, "I think I can do this better." Joe: Now, I had great mentors that were around me that taught me different things. Like my father-in-law is a finance guy. I remember when I was just out of Holy Cross, my wife Amy and I went down to visit her parents in Washington, DC, and I went to his office. The people loved him. They absolutely loved him. But they would do anything for him too, and they worked incredibly hard. And I thought, "Why aren't all the executives like that?" Luke: Right. Interesting. Joe: Because wouldn't it be great if they were? Luke: Yeah. It would be. Yeah. Joe: And they're not. They're just not. And he was just such a great guy. Joe: And then I worked for an entrepreneur, and he said, "I need you to go do things that I can't do in the role that I'm in, but I have your back." And I thought, "Wow. He trusts me. What a great thing. I'll go do anything now that I know that." I had another mentor, he taught me about people. He said, "It's all about the people, Joe." And he communicated and he... I've told this story before, but when you're interviewed, he'd say, "Cross your legs," which I'm doing right now. And I did. And I had short socks, and you could see skin. The next day... You'll never have this in your career, interoffice envelope. You ever heard of that? Luke: No, I haven't. No. Joe: So it's an envelope that you write someone's name on and then you put it in the mailbox, and it gets delivered. Luke: Okay. Yeah. Joe: And there's a little red string on the back that you put on this little circle thing that's a clasp. Luke: Got it. Joe: So and the next day I get an interoffice envelope from the president. I'm like, "Oh my gosh. Did I do something wrong?" And I open it up and it's... I'll show you right now, long socks. So I've always worn long socks. Joe: So the little things matter. Shine your shoes. Clean your car. It's all the little stuff. Luke: It's all attention to detail, stuff like that. Joe: Exactly. Always. And that was very, very important to me in my development as a career. Joe: But I will say, going back to my first job, I was an ice cream maker in Ogunquit, Maine at the Viking. It's not there anymore. Mrs. Everson was the owner, and to be a cashier was like a big thing because you're holding the money at the company, right? And to get a key to get into the business when the family wasn't there was also a big thing. I got both of those. Luke: Wow. Joe: I got to be a cashier and my sister was a cashier too, but I got to be a cashier, and they gave me the key to make the ice cream. But the thing that I remember absolutely the most was when you give people back change, this is how you do it. So the George Washington, Lincoln, Hamilton, the face is always in the same direction. And how many times... You probably... I don't even know if you use money, but... cash. Luke: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Joe: You may just use a card. Luke: Yeah. Joe: Today, nobody... They just hand the money to you. It's unbelievable. It drives me absolutely crazy. Luke: I never thought about that. Joe: But it's the attention to detail and respecting that it's my money actually. I just bought something from you. It's actually my money. So give it back to me with respect. That's what she taught me. So those are the things... Joe: I wish I had a mentor when I was your age about business that allowed me to kind of coagulate all these experiences because I think I would have been... I think I would have done something on my own earlier, but I also got married when I was 23, so we began a life shortly thereafter together, and so you get in that groove, that swim lane, and it wasn't until about three years ago that I decided to start my own business. Luke: And it's those very small but important attentions to detail that really build your character and really show you how a business should operate and how you should operate in life. But however, you got married at 23, and then you were in jobs. It's definitely a difficult and very courageous decision to step out of that and then go and start your own business. And I was wondering if you could speak a little bit to about the courage that entrepreneurs have to have if they want to succeed? Joe: My courage at this stage is probably different than the courage at your stage possibly. I've got a large network. I've been fortunate in some circumstances. I do fund my own business, so I'm not... I don't have any investors or anything. I don't have any partners per se. Joe: The courage for me was the change. It was less the financial implication, but it was more... But I will say right now, it's a financial implication because what I've learned, I want to address... because I have a couple other things that will become... I'll hire employees to do these other things. So now I have to make a substantial investment to make those happen. So that's going to require some courage on my side to go with it, right? Joe: But I would say that the thing that was the catalyst... This was actually an absolute true story. I was at church on a Sunday, and I was in a situation with a business that I was CEO of. It was a difficult situation, and the priest is fantastic at our church, and... in his homily he told a story about when he was in... being prepared to become a priest. He said that he was walking. He was distraught about something. He was walking in the hills and he found himself in a place where he really wasn't paying attention and suddenly, he can't go back because the crevice was so large. And he doesn't really even know exactly how he got there. And the only thing he could do was go forward. And had he been totally cognizant of the situation, he never would have gotten himself into that particular spot. Joe: So at that moment in church, I decided, I am going to go do this. That was when I decided to do this. Luke: Wow. Joe: And it was because of my faith and it was because- Luke: Your faith. Yeah. Joe: ... of that story, and I said, "This is my moment. I have stepped across. I can't go back so I'm going forward." And I actually went and resigned the next day. Luke: Wow. Joe: Now I had to talk to my wife about it, of course. And that was the courageous part, because it was hard. We were going to eat, we had a house, and all that stuff. It's not like that. But it was a big difference, and our lives changed as a result of that. Joe: And so, I went, and I actually went to Gethsemani in where Thomas Merton was as a monk, and I spent three days there in silence, which is hard to believe. I didn't talk for three days. I went to mass six or seven times a day, and I read a lot of books and I went walking in the woods. And here's what I got from that experience is silence is the loudest experience you'll ever have. And just by being alone in the woods, I heard things that I hadn't heard. And that was tragic to me because I had been working and traveling, and I missed out on so much. And I realized that I had missed a spontaneity in life by traveling and doing all that I had done and my career. I never missed a birthday, I never missed an anniversary, I never missed any of the planned things, but I missed all the things when your son or daughter comes home and someone's mean to them at school, or something happened that was great. I wasn't there. I wasn't there. And I made a vow that if I was able to make this change that I would be more aware of that. Joe: Now I'm not perfect, but I work every day to try and be more in the spontaneity of life. And that's a lesson is to... sometimes you have to step out of what you have to see that there's so much more. Like I wouldn't be doing this today probably if I was in the other situation. My schedule would be too busy. Well, I made this a priority because I love Holy Cross and I want to give back, and if one person walks away from this conversation feeling better about themselves, or they see there's something that they can do now that they might have not really thought possible, then Luke, you and I just spent a good 20, 30 minutes together. And that's the way I would say I feel now. Luke: It's powerful, yeah. Joe: Yeah, it's big. For me it works. Luke: That's amazing about the faith and church. That's... yeah. That's unbelievable. Joe: He's fantastic. Actually the other priest, we have... There's only one Jesuit in Tennessee and he graduated with Father Bruce. He went to Holy Cross, Class of '81. Yeah. So he's great too. Yeah, he's awesome. It wasn't his story though. Luke: Just going back to Worcester, that's a lot to digest. But some more lighthearted stuff now. Grew up in Worcester. Went to school in Worcester. I got to know, best spot, restaurant. What do you think? Joe: Wow. That's a great question. Luke: There's a lot of good ones. Joe: My favorite place is no longer there, which was the Millbrook Diner, which you probably have never heard of. So that's a good question. What's the favorite... There's... I would say where I usually go is either Miss Woo's or The Boy. And then I used to go to the... What's the diner across the street? Part... from the Boulevard. That's where we used to go, but I don't think that- Luke: I know- Joe: You know what I'm talking about? Luke: Yeah, I know what you're talking about. Joe: But I would- Luke: I can't think of the name. Joe: That's a good... I don't know. That's a... I don't know. There's it's many new places here. What the heck? Luke: Yeah, there are. Joe: So, I will tell you this. Kelley Square today, I did go through Kelley Square, which is when I went to St. John's in Shrewsbury, I had a brother, Brother William taught us. He said he used to close his eyes and just drive through. Continues to be the case. The worst place, although with the new baseball stadium, I suppose it's going to be addressed. Very happy that the Sox are coming to Worcester. We're happy about that, yup. Joe: I'm a diner guy, to be honest with you, so I love all the diners. That would be the way I grew up. Luke: Yeah, diners are great. Yeah. Luke: Another kind of just lighthearted question. But as a business executive, obviously you got to be very in-tune with what's going on in society. Are there any new type of trends in social media or in the news that have really caught your eye? Joe: Yeah. So without getting too political, I will say that I have a problem with current leadership. It does matter how you do what you do. It's not just the outcome. So the mechanism, the value system, and how you actually approach leadership matters a lot to me. So, I'm going to add something here that is a little bit of a twist on your question, but I think it'll kind of bring- Luke: Sure. Joe: ... a few things together. Joe: So when I was running a bigger company, I had a platform and I had a responsibility as the CEO of the company, I felt, to talk about the question that you just asked me about. If we're having a bad economic period, 2008 I was CEO of a company, economic crash, I got in front of everybody and said, "Okay, we got problems. Here's what's going to have to happen. We're going to have to freeze... We might have to have some layoffs," but I was honest and transparent with everybody. Very, very difficult. Joe: So macroeconomic trends, I think, if I were running a bigger company, this issue with the virus from China- Luke: Coronavirus. Joe: ... everybody's concerned about that. They should be. Whether it'll be bigger than people think it is at the moment, I don't know. I'm not an expert in that area, but I do think we need to be aware of it. So I think we need to convey these things. Joe: But what's most troubling to me is that we can't seem to get to a common agenda. We can't figure that out. And if the country were a business, we'd go out of business. And so, I believe that some of the business principles can be brought to that conversation. So I started a thing called The Bridge. And The Bridge is bringing people from different perspectives together. And I've done it in Ohio. I've had public forum in Ohio with groups of people, and now I'm doing it in Nashville on the 18th of this month. Joe: And people that are helping me facilitate this are four people. Well, there's three that's going to do this one. There's Troy Smith. He's an African American leader in the city. Great guy. He did some rap stuff when he was a kid. He grew up in the hood as he told me. We couldn't in some ways be any more different, but we're actually found a common platform. Jenn Miller is an inclusion diversity expert. She does this for businesses. She too is African American. Has got seven kids. Absolutely fantastic person. And then Chloe Adams. Chloe Adams is, she's 25. She went to Auburn University as a marketing communications person. And I got to know her because my office is there and she's just a direct communicator and appeals to her generation. Joe: So we're having a meeting where we're bringing people together, about two groups of 40, and we're going to have a conversation about the common platform. And the four of us are going to tell a little story of why this is so important to us, and I want to show people that it's possible to not solve it, but to agree that we can address things together. That we're going to have this conversation. And so we're addressing it through the lens of men and women, black and white, or Asian, what... Indian. Luke: Sure. Joe: Different races, ages, and orientation. Bring people... It doesn't matter. It's the you, YOU. We're trying to bring as much diversity- Joe: ... into that conversation. And then show... These will be people that don't know each other, and they'll be able to sit in a room and have a conversation. And just by virtue of bringing this up, it's amazing how many people want to participate in a conversation. Joe: Now not sure where it's going to go and I don't really care at the moment where it goes, but I think it can be a bit of a movement, and I'm really excited about where we can take it. Joe: So that's probably a part of where my energy is now being focused because I think without figuring this out, it's just not helpful. So that's a big part for me. Luke: It's super important to understand everybody and everyone's background, and like you were saying, that whole empathy and understanding where people are coming from, their beliefs and stuff like that- Joe: Right. Luke: ... instead of shying away from that, embracing everybody and figuring out... or not even figuring out problems in society or whatever, in a company, but just addressing those issues and talking about it and being united, that's huge in my opinion. Yeah. Joe: Think about this conversation. We don't know each other that well, right? Luke: Right. Joe: But we were educated by the same institution, similar principles, many decades apart. But the expectation of us is the same. We're to take this platform and bring it into the world, not pass judgment on people, but bring people together. And then evolve as we learn from others and make an impact that's different tomorrow than it is today because we've evolved. We've learned. That's the part. But you can't dig in too early. And as long as you're willing to listen and learn and talk, we can make a difference. And I will not be dissuaded from that. I will not. And there are people that get angry about these things and they want to dig in on one issue or they disagree, but that's part of this. I'm not right, but I can facilitate a conversation. And I think that's a skillset that I would really recommend continue to let evolve for yourself is be able to facilitate and bring people into the conversation because the most quiet person in the room is maybe the one that's most valuable. Just because people process, you know? Luke: And that's something that I was taught growing up as well. My dad, I always remember him talking to me about listening to everybody in the room. That's what he would say. "Listen to everybody in the room. Everybody can offer something unique and bring something to the table. And comprehend that, understand that, and then use that to move forward." Joe: Right. Luke: And yeah, that's big. Joe: Because if you think about it metaphorically, it's like making a cake or some... I don't know, some meal or whatever. If you look at the people as being the ingredients, you don't put equal amounts of everything. But if every person is an ingredient, you just take the right amounts, oh my gosh, it's like the best cake ever, right? Luke: Yup. Joe: And that's, I think, what I always think about when I'm in a room is, we're trying to bake something. We're try to make something together. And I don't know if I heard someone say this or I made this up myself, but every time we're together, just today, this will never happen again. Luke: True. Joe: Once in history will you and I be sitting in this room at this time of the day under this circumstance. So if we don't walk away... if we can walk away with one thing from that and then tell someone else and do something different, what a great experience. And if you have more people in the room, wow. So let's take full advantage of that. Because we are blessed to be able to do these things. Luke: Completely agree. Yeah. And we'll just wrap it up here briefly. Joe: Sure. Luke: But one last thing about Holy Cross. What was your favorite class? Were there any... I know you're a chemistry major, but were there any other... obviously the liberal arts education, learning more about just the specific major you're in, were there any big classes that jumped out at you and really help you even today? Joe: I think the one that I talk about often is I took a course on, I don't know if it was about atheism, but it was taught by an atheist. And I thought that was really interesting because, of course, being void of faith given how I grew up, I said the rosary every day and went to mass and all that stuff. But I just thought it was really interesting to have someone with such conviction about a totally opposing view, but also being open to the others and being able to teach us about that. And that to me gave great confirmation of what the Jesuit, what I took away from one of the Jesuit pillars was, "We will teach you from those that have depth of understanding and belief as opposed to someone that has a surface level understanding and just expose you to the topic." And I thought that was fantastic. Joe: Now he didn't convert me to atheism obviously, but it really in some ways confirmed my faith. But I would not have thought about that in a way that I have. And I also think that he moved my lack of judgment, how I don't judge people, forward because I might have had a very negative reaction to an atheist. But in that course, I learned that he too is good person. He just has a different viewpoint. And I thought that was fantastic. Joe: I played soccer at Holy Cross so I cannot leave this conversation without saying that the guys that I played soccer with, those stories continue, and we just had a blast. And being a student athlete was fantastic. We had so much fun. We had so much fun. Luke: All right. Joe: Luke, thank you. Luke: Yeah, thank you. Joe: This was great. Luke: Appreciate it. Joe: Awesome. Luke: Definitely. Joe: So much fun. Good luck to you. Luke: Thank you. You as well. Maura: That's our show. I hope you enjoyed hearing about just one of the many ways that Holy Cross alumni have been inspired by the mission to be men and women for and with others. A special thanks to today's guest and everyone at Holy Cross who has contributed to making this podcast a reality. Maura: If you or someone you know would like to be featured on this podcast, please send us an email at alumnicareers@holycross.edu. If you like what you hear, then please leave us a review. This podcast is brought to you by the Office of Alumni Relations at the College of the Holy Cross. You can subscribe for future episodes wherever you find your podcasts. I'm your host, Maura Sweeney, and this is Mission-Driven. In the words of St. Ignatius of Loyola, "Now go forth and set the world on fire." --- Theme music composed by Scott Holmes, courtesy of freemusicarchive.org.

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Do You Know The Value Of Your Greatest Asset? Here's How You Can.

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 24, 2020 47:59

One of the biggest challenges we face as business brokers is getting sellers to understand that we too are entrepreneurs. Getting people to do a valuation is one of the biggest hurdles because many think that just staying afloat is the goal, and the rest will come later. Sometimes later is too late. Today Joe and Mark are back sharing how to get valuation right. At Quiet Light we work hard to educate and help people find the growth paths that will get them the most value for their business in the event of a sale. We have a ton of experience in giving valuations and can guide current and future sellers to profit. When you build a great business with buyers in mind it will make the transfer so much easier. Episode Highlights: Why a business owner should plan an exit strategy early in the business building process. The benefits and tradeoffs of entrepreneurship. How long in advance someone should plan their valuation. How much it costs to do a valuation. The threefold beneficiaries of the valuation. The importance of the end goal while building. How the valuation process benefits the potential buyer. Ways selling a cohesively built business creates valuable relationships. The level of detail that is essential to a full valuation. Accounting tips for a better valuation as you go. How the valuation process gives owners paths hidden profits. The other three of a successful business How the invisible fifth pillar makes a difference in the overall value of your business. Mark's quick wrap-up of the importance of a valuation. Transcription: Joe: Mark, one of the biggest challenges that we have as business brokers is conveying to people that we're entrepreneurs first. We've all been in their shoes. We're technically still entrepreneurs, right? We run Quiet Light Brokerage. And getting people to get beyond the mindset of running their business and saying I'm not ready to sell I don't to have a conversation about exiting to actually thinking well in advance of an exit is one of the biggest challenges and honestly, it's frustrating. It's frustrating for me and that's why we work so hard to educate and help and we do this podcast so we can get more people thinking well in advance of their exit. But I want to ask you as the original founder of Quiet Light Brokerage, the man with so many stories to tell, why in your opinion should somebody even plan their exit and give it thought well in advance of selling their business; what are the benefits? Mark: Boy that's a big question and I could actually give you a number of benefits and since you put me on the spot I don't have them in order in terms of what I would think would be the most important. But I'll start with this one which I think might not be the most important reason but I think it might be the most applicable for most people. It will resonate with most people and that's this, having a business that is valuable in an exit usually means you have a very valuable business to own. That's the number one reason in my opinion. So let me explain that and flesh that out a little bit. Obviously, if somebody is willing to buy your business for quite a bit of money; let's say they're willing to pay a four-time or five-time multiple, what they're seeing there as a business that is desirable to own, it is going to grow, and it's going to kick off a lot of cash in the future which obviously if you come to me or come to any entrepreneur and say do you want to own a business that doesn't require a ton of work has a lot of upsides and is consistently throwing off money most people would say yes, right? If we talk about the four pillars which we do so often here, do you want to own a business that has a low-risk profile and good growth prospects as the two first pillars? Yes, most of us want to. So the first reason I would say is when you go through the process of planning to sell even if you decide not to sell your business the result of it is that you have a business which is more stable, you know the growth paths available to your business, and you have great documentation in place for the business. So that'll be my number one reason right out the gate. And I don't know if you want to discuss that or I can give you a couple of others if you want. Joe: Yeah well let's first tell the folks listening that there is no special guest today it's you and me and we're going to talk through… Mark: I'm special Joe. You're special. I am special. Joe: Actually, I just gave you hosting privileges on this. Mark: So we're special. Joe: Technically I'm the guest and then I'm not special. Hey, we're not having anybody on today because Mark and I have a ton of experience at this. We do valuations every day so we want to talk about the reason to have one done and then what we do. We'll talk about what goes into it, and what we discovered, and what we learned along the way. So yes Mark if you want to talk first about that first example that you gave an elaborate on it a little bit we can do that and then go into some details on what it's like to get a valuation and what we do here at Quiet Light Brokerage when we put someone through the process. Mark: Oh sure. Actually, I do want to get to the other reason because these are the two that were kind of vying for my attention when you first asked that question. The second reason is that you just really don't know what the future holds. In the 14 years of doing this; at the time of this podcast almost 14 and a half years that I'm doing this, the number of clients that I've run into that are unprepared for the sale is exceedingly high and the number of clients that are unprepared who wish they had planned in advance is almost universal. So if you find that you're unprepared to sell you you've reached that point where you want to and you realize you aren't there yet there's often some sort of regret. It's kind of like thinking about the person who goes into the dentist for a root canal wishing that they had visited the dentist more frequently before. That inconvenience at the time would have paid off. Or for the person reaching retirement age wishing they had done more to plan their retirement. There are so many of these examples where especially entrepreneurs would get focused on the here and now today which is important. Obviously, we need to take care of that without the eye towards tomorrow that when tomorrow comes it often takes you by surprise. For entrepreneurs, we're in such a really cool spot. We have an opportunity to generate income that frankly people in the regular business world or regular careers don't have the opportunity to make. The tradeoff is some of that stability that you would get in the corporate office world and maybe some of the benefits and everything else that goes along with that. But for us, the benefit; the gain is the income potential but also what most people fail to see is the value of the asset that they are building in and of its own right and that alone can lead to early retirement, that can lead to being able to invest in much larger projects, that can be catapulted into something significantly bigger. But it does not happen if you build an asset which can't be sold. And so not only is it good to own a business like this because it follows basic business principles of having a low-risk profile and high growth opportunities and is usually very well documented which is a good thing; it ties into those two elements but it also gives you financial flexibility for the future and also career flexibility for the future as well. And if you don't do it the flip side is you can build yourself a prison which I'm sure you've seen a few people build prisons for themselves and their businesses. Joe: That's very, very hard. You want the independence and life of an entrepreneur and you've built yourself a business prison that you can't get out of and you just can't get ahead. But let's ask this; people ask me these questions all the time, we have a conversation about exits and valuations all the time so I mean I'd just grow you with a few here. Number one how long in advance should somebody do evaluation and plan their exit? We always hear I'm not ready to sell, why should I talk to you now? Mark: At least 12 months, right? I'm working with a client right now and they wanted to do evaluations, see where they're at financially and I said that's great send me your P&Ls and your balance sheets and they did which is awesome. I had a chance to review them and I had some further questions for them. Nothing came back so I bugged them about it and nothing came back. I finally bugged them again and they said well you know what we're doing is we're actually going through and we're eliminating some of these discretionary expenses, we're going to be doing this, that, the other thing and alarms are going off of my head because I see them taking some tax that they probably shouldn't be, right? Okay, I understand where you're going. For example one of the things that they're doing is they're cutting back on advertising spending in order to grow their bottom-line earnings. Well, let me ask you, Joe, what happens when you cut back on advertising? Joe: That's a big no-no. It's convergent graph lines, right? Discretionary earnings go up and your total revenue goes down. Mark: Right. Yeah. Nobody likes that alligator going to the left. Because if you see a graph where the revenue is going down or earning is going up we know that earning is going to go down in the future or to regain the momentum you have to outspend on advertising in most cases. To make it a more efficient one thing but that's on another. So how long; sorry, you asked me a question and you know me, I won't shut up. 12 months at a minimum? I would recommend 24, even 36 if you can just because if there's big changes that you want to make; let's say that you really want to explore that new product line, give yourself some runway to be able to plan that out. Joe: Okay, how much does it cost to do a valuation? Mark: Well it doesn't cost anything. Joe: Why? If it's free what's it worth. I don't understand. What's the business model? You're doing valuations for nothing. Mark: Oh you convinced me. If somebody wants to do a valuation of myself you're going to be paying a lot of money. So for us, it makes sense, right? I mean the number of times when I've started Quiet Light and was working with clients in the early days so many clients were being turned away because; not in saying I won't work with you but I would do the valuation. They say I'm ready to sell my business and I take a look at it and Joe you know the conversation. You and I had this conversation. And I looked at your business and I said okay right now it's worth X but Joe if you wait a little bit time, do some of the things that you're doing right now, actually, you're doing a lot of good things, just wait a little bit you're going to add this much value to your business. Other people it's a little bit different, right? It's hey you know what you have your name, you are a doctor and you are selling an information guide about how to take care of athlete's foot. And your name is plastered all over this. Well, guess what? That's not a transferable business because everyone's buying it based on your name. So I'm going to have trouble selling your business and if we do sell it it's going to come at a discount. But Mr. Doctor athlete's foot if you take your name off of this and show us that it can run for 12 months just as well if not better than it is right now without your name plastered all over it instead of getting maybe a 1½ multiple you're going to get like a 3.2 or 3.3. Joe: And who does that benefit? Mark: That benefits the client. Joe: There are three parties that it benefits. Mark: I'm being quizzed here. Joe: You are being quizzed. So it benefits the guy who's running the business, it benefits Quiet Light Brokerage which is a weird model, right? We do it for free folks but in the long run, it benefits us because you're going to have a more valuable business. But there's this third party that benefits as well and that third party… Mark: Is the buyer. Joe: Right. They might eventually become our clients as well too. So it's an odd model. As my mentor said, Joe, it seems like you guys are giving things away for free on a hope and a prayer that they'll come back to you someday. And I said exactly Walter that's what we're doing and it works very well. We're building relationships and building trust and we're helping first. And strangely the more people we help the more our business grows and the more valuable their businesses become and the more buyers buy great businesses. And it's an endless positive cycle and works very well. With that said I remember being at eCommerceFuel a few years ago and I came back; I sat at the bar with one of the presenters, I cannot pronounce his name. All I know is he swore a lot on stage but he was really good. He was really good and I had a beer with him afterwards and he said something like well I'd have a valuation done but honestly it's free I'd feel like I'm committed to you. I'm obligated to you because I didn't pay you. If I pay you I can just walk away. And it's an interesting viewpoint but we are all about relationships and we want to help. We want to get it done. And the more conversations we can have well in advance of a sale selfishly it makes it a lot easier for us when it comes to the time to list your business. I'm in the middle of a valuation right now where there are two brands in one seller account and there's a royalty arrangement and they have a coaching business and different LLCs. It's just a mess and the add-back schedule is getting deep and long. It's almost as long as the P&L itself which raises the antenna of the buyers. We don't want that. We want to have this clean business presentation as possible. So I'm with you 12, 24, 36 months in advance. Have the conversation. Get an education on the value and the process of maximizing the value of what is likely your most valuable asset. I was having a conversation with Mike Jackness a few weeks ago and we're doing a presentation it was actually at eCommerceFuel and he said the problem is you can't talk too much about exits and planning with these guys. They're doing all they can just to keep the wheels on the bus, to keep revenue going, and not run out of inventory, and do all these different things. I'm like yes, yes, yes, but when they have a clear vision of the value of the business and the view of an eventual exit when the wheel falls off and they've got to put it back on it's a lot easier because they still know where they're going. Otherwise, they're just wandering aimlessly trying not to run out of inventory; solving problems without an end goal in mind which is it's exhausting sometimes. Mark: Yeah and I want to comment on one aspect here about the idea of benefiting the buyer because if you're a business owner you might be thinking well I don't really care about the buyer at the end of the day. I mean I care but when you talk to entrepreneurs and sellers sometimes the approach they take is yeah I hope that the buyer does well with it but that's definitely a footnote compared to what they get out of the sale and understandably so. I'm not criticizing anyone who has that sort of attitude. But in your opinion, Joe why should the seller care about whether or not the buyer gets a good deal? Not a good deal as far as discounted but a good business that they can make a good return on investment on. Joe: Yeah that's actually not very complicated. It's when you do the right thing you will be rewarded. If you build a great business that checks all of the four pillar boxes, that really highlights all of the financial key metrics in a very, very positive way; and these are things that we do in the valuation folks when all of those things are you know 8s, 9s, 10s or a really solid green light guess what? That buyer is going to pay you more for the business. They're going to pay a higher multiple with better terms and it's going to be an easier transaction for you. Most people that are selling their businesses sometimes it comes down to okay like Quiet Light Brokerage we had 2½ offers for every listing that we put out there in 2019. So buyers are liking our listings, they're liking the way the packages are put together because we work with our clients for a long time and sellers sometimes have a choice. And sometimes they want to choose who is going to be easier in the transition afterwards. When you build a great business and you think of your eventual buyer in mind that transition is going to be easy because you've got SOPs in place, you've got a long communication with your broker advisor here at Quiet Light that's going to talk to you about all of those different things and making that transition easier because that's one of the four pillars; the transferability of the business and all the things that generate revenue for it. So now you're asking a short question and I'm giving you a long answer, it's the buyer will pay you more, as simple as that. Mark: The buyer will pay you more. I would also add on there that I think we are quick to dismiss the power of relationships and the people that you're going to meet when you go to sell your business. These are really important things. I had a situation; as you know I have another business besides Quiet Light Brokerage that doesn't take up a lot of my time but I ran into an issue the other day. It was a really complex difficult issue but the seller and I are friends at this point. We know each other pretty well and I hadn't run into this before. So I sent him an e-mail and said hey how have we dealt with this before he came back with a nice long response and insightful and everything else. It was a really good resource for me to have and he and I are on good terms because he's treated me fairly all along and built a business that was worth buying, to begin with. He's a valuable asset and if I ever want to do new things in this space he would be somebody that I would look to partner with because he's already skilled in this area. And when you're selling your business you're typically selling to somebody who is highly skilled and a successful entrepreneur in their own right. Isn't that a good person to have you in your Rolodex? I don't want to overemphasize this point and say this is the only reason you want to do it. I think what you listed Joe what you explained I think that is really where you want to put the focus and emphasis. But there's a whole host of ancillary benefits to creating a transaction that benefits yourself first, the broker who is going to be working with you and your team your partner with you, and also that buyer making sure that they have a business that they're going to be able to succeed with. Joe: Let's talk about what we actually do in evaluation. Mark: Sure. Joe: I'm going to kick this off. One of the first things that; I've got a call this afternoon at 4:00 today I'm doing an initial valuation call with a couple of very experienced entrepreneurs. The first thing we need are financials. So as an entrepreneur, as a business owner, if you're not able to run a profit loss statement with a monthly view going back more than 12 months we're not going to be able to do a full valuation because the full valuation does a year over year comparison. I'm going to look at January of 2020 versus January of 2019 and hopefully ‘18 and so on. And that's part of the financial key metrics in terms of where the top-line growth trends are, where the advertising cost as a percentage of revenue is, and where it's trending. Is it seasonal? We're going to talk about the timing of listing a business sale. Even if you're looking three or four years out we're going to talk about some of those things and we're going to see all of that with the detailed financials. Now today Walker wrapped up a long email chain between all of us where he had a client trying to do a valuation and get his business listed for sale and all he had were quarterly P&Ls. What's the problem in your view Mark with quarterly P&Ls versus monthly P&Ls? Mark: It's just the level of detail, right? I mean I can go backwards. I can take monthly P&Ls and go over to quarterly and I didn't comment; we had a discussion about this within the company and I didn't comment on it before everything resolved themselves. There are some businesses frankly that I think quarterlies worked really well for and probably better for; businesses with lumpy income benefit from having a little bit larger of a lens that we're looking through to even that out so we can see what the real trends are. But it's good to have that option to be able to go to monthly because you have more detail. What you pointed out Joe and I think it's a very good point is that when you get into the transaction and let's say a buyer places an offer we get past a quarter and let's say that we're month one into the quarter, most buyers before they close on a transaction want to know what the business has done over the past month and that time that they're doing their due diligence. Did it completely blow up while they were doing that final piece of due diligence? So they're going to ask for these updated numbers along the way as they're going through the process. Well if you have to wait two more months in order to close to be able to get reliable updated numbers that's just going to extend your timeline, introduce further risk that something happens and the buyer has to pull out and will disadvantage you in that way. And again the lack of detail when I'm doing analysis on a business for a valuation I love looking at the trends I like looking at year over year trends and really I start to look at the different months. And it's surprising the number of businesses that obviously November December get a spike are pretty high but let's say like home and garden stores often get a bump right around April or May so that'll be a second quarter. Maybe it spans two different quarters and you really get a sense for how does this business breathe over the course of a year. Right? Joe: So we're going to look in great detail at the financials. So we want you to run a profit and loss statement for me to Quick Books or Xero with a monthly view going back as far as you can up through the most recently reconciled month. If it's an e-commerce business we definitely want to get those P&Ls on an accrual basis. If we can't get them on accrual basis because you do cash accounting at some point we're going to have to find a way to flip the land cost of goods sold to accrual. Why? Because if a business is growing like crazy you're taking a lot of cash flow from the business and putting it right back into more and more inventory and that's going to depress your seller's discretionary earnings. And your business is a multiple of seller's discretionary earnings which is net income plus add-backs equals SDE. Mark: Yeah I want to talk about this accrual basis because I'm seeing this more and more. People are hearing us, they're hearing this message, and I'm seeing more and more books delivered to us on a false accrual basis is what I would call it. So here's the problem, bookkeepers don't like to do accrual basis accounting because it's hard. It takes more work. It takes more reporting on a monthly basis. They need to dig in, see what you sold, tie that back to the cost of goods sold, and record that. What I'm seeing pretty commonly here is accountants who make a year-end adjustments for the cost of goods sold. And so what you end up seeing is cost of goods sold seems kind of flat or kind of lumpy all throughout the year and then in December all of a sudden everythings out of whack. It doesn't match up. Speaking about the monthly one of the elements that a buyer is going to evaluate when looking at your business if you're selling physical products business or even if you're selling; you can do this if you're SaaS business as well it's just a cost of sales numbers out of the cost of goods sold. One of the key metrics we want to look at is your business getting more expensive to run; in other words, if you're consistently bringing in 5 million dollars of revenue what does it cost to generate that 5 million dollars of revenue? Are your products getting more expensive? Have you had a discount on those products over time? Are there periods during the year where you have to do one or the other? If you are in SaaS business are the cost of sales going up; your commissions that you're paying out the salespeople if you're on a commission sales basis. You can't get these numbers unless you're on accrual basis accounting. And a buyer, a smart buyer, if you want to sell to a smart buyer will want to see this information to see is this trending in the right direction and if not then we need to work this into the valuation; so monthly accrual. Joe: When this false accrual practice is done it's generally done by a CPA not a bookkeeper because they're doing some adjustments for the end of the year. Although just to be clear everyone if you've got an e-commerce business with physical products you are going to file your taxes on a cash basis. But when you're looking at the value of your business we need it on an accrual basis. You should have a CPA for your taxes. You should have an e-commerce bookkeeper for your daily, monthly, quarterly profit and loss statements. You should not in my opinion or view do that work yourself anymore if it takes you three or four hours a month you're worth more than the $400, $500, or $600 a month that a really highly qualified e-commerce bookkeeper is going to charge you. Mark: Yeah and we've made this point before but I'll make it again. It all depends on how you enter the information or your bookkeeper how they enter the information into whatever accounting software you're using. If you enter the information as an accrual basis you can flip to cash with a click of a button. It's very easy to do. Joe: Very easy, yeah. Mark: If you enter your information into your books on a cash basis you can't flip it to accrual. I mean you can, you're just going to get the wrong numbers, right? The software is stupid in that way. It's going to try and it's going to calculate it but you've entered the data wrong. So if you entered it in as accrual you can file in cash, that's totally fine. But for the sake of accuracy, you should be entering it or having your bookkeeper enter it in as accrual. And ask your bookkeeper this too, when I hired our bookkeeper I asked them; I sent them an interview, a written interview and I asked them to explain what accrual accounting was. I know what it is but I wanted to see could they explain it. And I was shocked at the number of foot keepers that couldn't explain it in a clear, concise way. Joe: It's not hard guys. Just we'll move beyond this make your eye bleed accounting part of the conversation. Look up cost of goods sold accrual formula. That's all it is. It's beginning inventory plus purchases minus ending inventory on a monthly basis. That's ideal. But the point; one last point is that if you spend a million bucks a year on inventory and you're just doing adjustment or a guess we have to flip things sometimes to accrual. If you're off by 1½%, that's $15,000. If you're spending a million bucks on inventory, you're spending a lot of money; you may be doing 4 million 5 million dollars a year in revenue which probably means you're doing $750,000 in discretionary earnings. You might be at a four-time multiple at that point; four times the $15,000 that you got wrong on the inventory is $60,000 that you're not putting in your pocket in the sale of your business because you wouldn't spend $500 a month on an e-commerce bookkeeper. Or you're overcharging your buyer by that 15,000 times four because you guessed on the wrong side and things are going to fall apart or go off the rails in due diligence. So get it right, build trust, and move on. Okay, so first thing we need is a clean professionally done profit and loss statement with a monthly view. We're going to import that into the Quiet Light Brokerage import system. We're going to normalize the P&L. If you've ever looked at our listings folks you can see they look pretty much the same; our profit and loss statements. We do that because we see them in every shape, size, quantity, format, PDF, Excel. I mean it's crazy I'm surprised somebody hasn't mailed in a napkin at one point or another to Quiet Light. Mark: I had a notepad document once on a 20 million-plus business. Joe: We don't want our buyers to see that so we import it. We have an importing process where we're going to pull it in and we're going to analyze the key metrics; the financial key metrics that buyers over the last 14 years have told us this is what we look at. They're looking at top-line revenue trends. They're looking at gross profit, trends, shrinking or growing, and then they're looking at advertising cost as a percentage of total revenue and how it's trending. As Mark said earlier you could be spending a lot of money on advertising in the last six months to drive top-line revenue or the reverse and it all weaves together in a web, right? I've had a listing for sale last year and the seller said I handed my advertising off to a VA in late spring last year and I let him run it and five months in I realize things got out of hand and I pulled it back and took it over myself. We do a recorded interview just like we're doing right now on Zoom. We do it on video, we do it on audio, that's part of the package when a business is for sale. And that question may come up then it also may come up in the written client interview and then guess what it all weaves into the profit and loss statements and the financial key metrics when then you can go and look at the advertising trends going yeah look at that Joe was right in July, and August and September the numbers were up and advertising was 17% instead of the normalized 12% that it's been for the last three years. So you can see those different types of things. I had a situation just last week where I was looking at a profit loss statement where the ad spend went through the roof in December but revenue went down. That tells a story that he's struggling against competition and it's not really working out. He's spending a lot more money but sales are going down and lo and behold January and February are down as well. The numbers tell a story so the first thing we've got to get are the numbers, right Mark? Mark: Yeah. And I'm going to share something here Joe that I think was last week or maybe the week before, you actually did a valuation on Quiet Light brokerage. Joe: I did. Mark: Which was done not because we're looking for a buyer although if somebody wants to offer us 30 million dollars let's have a conversation. More importantly you wanted to look for areas of wasteful spending on our part and also key trends for the business as well. So let's think about this in terms of not selling our business, let's think about this in terms of business owners who want to run their business efficiently. Let's say you take the last three years' worth of your P&Ls and they're done on a true accrual basis and you take a look and you see that your gross profit margins have gone from 60% and they're dropping down to 52%. Now you might know why that's happening, you might know what's going on there but you can also identify that as a trend that if you were to correct that trend it's going to help the business. I worked with a client; I'm actually in the middle of doing a valuation for them and they keyed in on this on their own. They were very proud of this. They said look our gross profit margins are 42% right now but what we did over the course of the past year our revenue is down because of a very explainable reason but what we did is we found a product line. We found a method here to increase our gross margins from 42% upwards to 54%, 55%. We were able to test this on a singular product and it worked well and we plan to expand this. Well look what happened by looking at their margins and understanding the margins and understanding that's an area of opportunity they've uncovered a huge avenue to growth which is replicable and from a valuation standpoint it's great but from a business ownership standpoint, it's even better for them because now they can charge a charge more, pay less. Who doesn't want that, right? So let's exercise; again you asked why should we do a valuation beyond being prepared to sell should that they arise? It's a valuable exercise to do as business owners. Joe: I got an email the other day and it was from somebody named Anthony; let's leave it at that. And he wrote Joe this is really, really insightful. I had certain financial goals in the business and now I realize I'm that much closer to them than I ever was. This is making it so much more exciting to run my business every day which is exactly what it truly is. In that situation we determined, he determined; he came to the table with they've decided to charge shipping on items over a certain dollar value and that was going to add their estimate was $180,000 in additional discretionary earnings over a 12 month period. And then they had renegotiated cost of goods sold, they were going to save about $2 a unit and that was going to add $200,000 in total discretionary earnings over the next 12 months. That's $380,000 right there and with another $400,000 now they're at $680,000 they expect to be adding 2020. It's getting that much closer to their exit goal and it just defogs their window put your high beams on you can really see that much better when you're running your business it makes it that much more exciting. A lot of the things that we do talk about beyond the financials, Mark; it's not just about the numbers folks, it really starts with them. It's funny that it starts with them but that's pillar number four, documentation. Let's talk about the other three pillars briefly, Mark. Go ahead and tell me what the other three are. Mark: Risk, growth, transferability. Joe: It took me a while to remember what all four those are and I'm going to hold this up everybody; anybody that's on YouTube. I still have this on my desk after eight years. It says what they all are right there. Mark: I didn't make it memorable enough. Joe: Risk, growth, transferability, and documentation. Mark: How are you as a student in school? I'm just curious. Joe: Oh I fell asleep in accounting class I tell that story all the time. And the bottom part of that; oh look at that I forgot to turn my phone off you're hearing my Twitter. Mark: I heard a bird. Joe: The bottom part of that note there was that our business is relational, not transactional. I need reminders every day. Anyway, risk, growth, transferability, and documentation; we've talked about number four, risk. I've got a business that should be closing in the next few days and 70% of their revenue is from one SKU. What is that called? Mark: That's product concentration or a single point of failure. Joe: Or a hero SKU or a bad idea or a unicorn; all sorts of trouble. I had a conversation with somebody; a couple three years ago… Mark: Bad idea. Joe: Actually it's a bad idea. Mark: It's not a bad idea if it's sustainable just to be clear but yeah I get where you're going. Joe: Well here's the sustainable part, so there was a gentleman that I was working on a valuation for and he had one SKU that generated 90% of his revenue. And I'm like this is a bad idea. He's like well it's a lot less work Joe, it's very defensible, look at our reviews. I mean he had me convinced that it was actually a good idea. And then guess what happened? Facebook changed an algorithm and they're their ads that were working with no longer allowed and they never recovered. Their business was worth two million dollars one month and the next month it was worth like one maybe; two million, 50% cut just like that and I haven't heard from him so I'm sure it's gotten worse and worse and worse. It's a single point of failure. It's a hero SKU. It's a risk. So, therefore, buyers are going to decrease the value when it comes to the valuation. We're going to do it for you and we're going to tell you what buyers think but it's a decimal point or two or three. So instead of at a 3.2 multiple; I'm going to do some math for everybody, simple numbers at 3.2 if you've got $100,000 in discretionary earning you're at 320,000 in terms of list price. Two-tenths of a decimal point off because of a risk point you go from 320 down to 300 or 300 down to 280. It changes that quickly because of a single point of failure or because of risk in disregard. So that's part of the risk, it's the hero SKU; things of that nature. But there's also age, there are trends, right? So generally we want to have a business that's about 24 months old at a minimum. We sold them for less. There are exceptions to every single rule we talked about here. But 24 months is when buyers start to have confidence and they don't discount the value of the business because of age. The other thing to talk about is the trends, Mark, right? I just had a valuation call last night with somebody I've been talking to for six months. And I can't seem to get updated financials on a monthly basis. That's the challenge. And finally, I get them and we have a conversation. We're recording this on March 3rd. I don't have January and February's numbers. I finally have Q4 and top-line revenues down 25%, bottom line discretionary earnings down 30%. So the value of that business just went from three-point something based upon the numbers down to easily 2.5 on the top side. So it's risk because it's trending down and somebody has to jump in and fix that downward trend, right? Mark: Mm-hmm that's right; yeah, absolutely. And one thing with these downward trends you talked about how quickly the discount, just an observation multiples go down much more easily than they go up. It's hard to prop the value and that multiple upwards but people would discount much more aggressively when they start to see problems such as the concentration or as you said the bad idea. Joe: So it is a bad idea when somebody calls and says hey I'd like to sell, I'd say hey you really can't nobody else will buy it. Bad idea. So we touch risk, we touched on growth; these are the first two, let's talk about the transferability of the business. What are the key components to this pillar? Mark: Yeah, the transferability; the easiest way in my world to think about this is just can somebody step into your shoes today and run the business without having a significant decline. Or maybe another way to think about it would be what's the learning curve of the business, or do you have documentation in place that will allow people to be replaced if needed? The transferability is just that and it can encompass a number of things first of all that affects all businesses would be procedures. The procedures that you have within your company to run it on a day to day basis; how do you handle returns if you have that sort of business, what are some common customer complaints or concerns or questions and how do you handle those; do you have a process set up for that. If you're an inventory-based business what is your inventory ordering process and your forecasting process? That's something that should be in a standard operating procedure. So there's all sorts of SOPs. Outside of those elements, transferability can come into your customer acquisition process and I brought this example up before during this call. If you're a doctor and your name is all over the website for your great athlete's foot cure now you've set up a barrier to transferability because you're selling off your own personal reputation. And unless you're willing to give your name and reputation to somebody else which most people aren't and understandably so you need to get that off there and no longer be the key method for customer acquisition. And the last thing would be licensing issues or other requirements to run your business. We've seen this before. Joe you had a valuation I remember this clear as day at Rhodium Weekend when they were doing live valuations up onstage and somebody came with a business we were supposed to be working quiet with other advisors, everyone was going to do valuations so we could see what it looked like live on stage and what was the result; it was an e-commerce business, what was the result of that valuation? Joe: It wasn't transferrable because they were sourcing product from the old; it was the old school, they were required to have a retail space so the business was going to be very, very hard to transfer. And I want to comment on that. Mark: It used to very common where wholesalers would require that you have a brick and mortar store because a lot of the legacy brick and mortar stores were telling their suppliers don't let these internet people come in and just start selling this and so they would require that storefront but it still exists out there. The other issues that I've seen with these licensing issues would be not only the storefront issue but maybe if you actually have to have a license to run the business. And you see this like; we had this with somebody that was selling high-end hair products. And you think well, what's the problem there? Well in order to sell these hair products you need to have a cosmetology license. And so that's a transferability issue. It cuts both ways though. Transferability when it comes to licensing and then these hurdles does set you up with some defense ability that can actually help your risk profile be lowered; anytime that there's a hurdle to jump over a business if you jump over it you're leaving some of your competitors on the other side of that hurdle, so that's a good thing. But the element that we started off with the SOPs and the documentation of your procedures, it's something that everybody should be able to do and should have in place. What are your common procedures, how do you do it, let's make it easy? I know you have something to say here on this, the last thing that I would recommend people do and I actually just did this with Quiet Light Brokerage for your sake and for other people within the company, diagram your business. Write out everybody who works for your business. Write it out; you can draw it if you like to draw, you can use a graphing software. I used Lucid Chart; very easy to use Lucid Chart for this or just write it out and see who has what roles within your business and how does that look. I'll tell you what it's an eye-opening experience because what you find especially in small businesses is you have people who wear multiple hats. You might find some crossover there as well. So that's where I would put transferability. Joe: Too many people are focused on the top line and very proud of the total revenues that they're doing. But ultimately we're running these businesses to make money and to be profitable and we can help you hone in on that profitability and what your business is truly worth. So we've touched on what we do when we import and normalize a P&L and look at financial key metrics. We've touched on the four pillars which are risk, growth, transferability, and documentation. Within each pillar, there's five to six different points that we touched on in a valuation process and we really get to know this invisible; I call it a fifth pillar. Mark corrects me every time. You don't need to Mark, people know this. The person behind the business; the trust and credibility that they have is that invisible fifth pillar. It's the mortar holding it all together. Are you a good human? Do people trust you? Do people like you? Believe it or not, if you are people are going to pay more for your business. You do make a difference in the overall value of your business. So we do all of these things and then we create a profit and loss statement with a detailed add-backs schedule. We go through that with you and we firm up your seller's discretionary earnings and apply a multiple range to it. This is where it gets into the weeds and we won't do it today on this podcast. I'm actually going to go ahead and record a podcast following this one on the three levels of add-backs. There are six different points to each level and it's very eye-opening. A lot of people don't understand the importance of detailing the add-backs. A few folks are like why do I need a broker for I'm just going to sell to this consumer group that's buying up FBA businesses. You need to understand the add-back schedules so that if you choose to sell directly to them you're getting maximum value for your business or even better the real value for your business; not maximum, the real value. It's okay, you can choose to sell to whomever you want however you want but make sure you're getting your own numbers right and that's what I'm going to share on the next podcast. Mark: Fantastic. Joe: Okay, one more final thing. Mark: I was going to say we're getting close to time here. People are like my drive is done. I'm at the office. Joe: We are. You're so eloquent Mark with your words and your e-mails and all this. I say this all the time and people hear you speak. You speak very, very well so why don't you do one final wrap up on why you think someone should have a business evaluation done through Quiet Light Brokerage and how it's going to help them in the future and then I'll give my two cents as well. Mark: Flattery is not going to get you anywhere Joe. Joe: Tell them what I want you to tell them. Mark: Well that I don't exactly know, I'll tell them what I think. So the question is why should people get a valuation done to kind of wrap this up. Your business is most likely your most valuable asset and if it isn't yet hopefully it will be someday and you should know what the value of it is. More importantly, you should understand what drives the value of your business and also what's holding it back. My favorite part of evaluation when I'm doing one; and actually I've got a call here in seven minutes to do a valuation, it's going to be coming up soon, somebody is taking us up on this. My favorite part of a valuation isn't telling somebody what their business is worth right now because that's usually somewhat predictable. It's being able to tell them what I love about this business and what buyers are going to salivate over is fill in the blank, and this part you've done a great job here, the areas where you're going to have some friction in your sale and it's going to cause a discount on the business are these elements. Now what I'm doing there is I'm really giving some insight into where the business is today but I'm also laying out a roadmap for everybody that I'm doing that for to say if you want to grow the value of this asset work on these elements and you know what if there's an element of your business that's really good double down on it. One of the areas that we've talked about in the past is this pillar of growth, we want them to have lots of growth potential for the business; lots of growth prospects for that business and they need to be real. However, if you have easy obvious growth within your business take advantage of it because I would rather multiply a larger earnings number and get that going up because it's a lot easier to grow your value that way. Doing a valuation will help identify those aspects of your business; where is it valuable right now, what's holding it back, and what's the plan to be able to make it more valuable. You don't have to sell the business. If you do these things you will have a business that is more valuable and you're going to gain insights that you never really thought about. I will challenge everybody if you don't do anything else on this call we've talked a lot about finances so I'm going to change it up. Diagram your business and then feel free to email me if you thought it was a complete waste of time. Joe: Or you can go at Mark@QuietLightBrokerage.com. Mark: Tell me it's a complete waste of time. Joe: Mark with a K. Mark: Mark with a K. The only way it would be a complete waste of time is if you have like two people in your company. But then you know what? Joe: Send him an email. Mark: Yeah, right. But then if you're going to do that diagram out the other people that are supporting you. Your contractors, the vendors, the people that are key for your business to run and take a look at that and you might not gain a whole lot of new insights but you're going to see your business in a way that you've never seen it before. Joe: What you're hearing here from Mark is that we're here to help. We're sharing information with you and giving you tools to make a better decision for your business and for the future when you are ready. If you are ever ready to sell. In no way shape or form are we ever here to talk you into anything. We're going to share the information with you. And that was the reason I chose Quiet Light Brokerage back in 2010 to sell my own business. I talked to three different firms. Two were trying to get me to sign a contract. The third was giving me helpful information to build a more valuable business to sell when I was ready to sell. And that conversation was with Mark. Lastly, don't be embarrassed by the size of your business. Sometimes we'll go to Mastermind groups and someone will; I can tell they're uncomfortable talking to us because they're only doing $100,000 in profit. Are you kidding me? You're an entrepreneur, you've built your own business, you're doing $100,000 in profit which is 40% higher than the national average; I don't know the numbers, I'm going to get a correction on that Joe@QuietLightBrokerage.com. It's huge compared to the national average. Don't ever be embarrassed by the size of your business. The smallest one we sold in 2019 was $28,000. Yes, it was a pocket deal because Brad had a larger listing and the gentleman had two smaller sites he wanted to sell off. They're all shapes and sizes. Our average transaction size in 2019 was 1.1 million. It grows every single year but we go through all different sizes. We want to help you get from that hundred thousand dollar valuation to a million-dollar valuation. We've had clients where they first sold their business at 7,000 then 20,000 then 220,000 and now nine million and the next exit that that particular individual has set is 100 million. We want you guys to achieve your goals and we're going to help you along the way. But we're not going to talk you into a single thing. So reach out go to the website. It's the valuation form or sell form I think it is or it shoot us an email at inquiries@QuietLightBrokerage.com and we'll hook you up with one of the qualified advisors here who are all entrepreneurs themselves. Links and Resources: Quiet Light Brokerage

How to Cultivate an Exitpreneur Mindset With Joe Valley

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 3, 2020 37:49

What is one of the surest paths to substantial wealth? Grow and sell a business. Today's episode is all about Joe's book project, “The Exitpreneurs Playbook.” Joe has over 8000 stories to tell about what it's like to buy, what it is like to sell, and ways to outsmart the typical entrepreneur process. Mark is interviewing Joe about this upcoming project, his motivations behind creating it, and how getting to the writing process carried its share of challenges. Joe believes that an exitpreneur should have the tools in hand to start, run, and grow their business for better decision making later on. He is not telling anyone to sell, he is offering them the strategies they need in order to be ready if they do. Episode Highlights: Joe's idea and the process of putting it into book format. Why he wanted to write the book. Reasons exit planning can be challenging for the business owner. The differences between an entrepreneur who is considering a sale versus one who has actually prepared an exit. How businesses often outgrow the founder and smart moves to make before that happens. The importance of reverse engineering to the goal for a better exit strategy. The difference between the entrepreneur and an exitpreneur. How Joe came up with the book title. Transcription: Mark: So Joe I was at an event recently in Salt Lake City and it was in just general kind of a conference meeting room for about 50 people or so and they had a lot of books in this place. And I was intrigued to just kind of look around and see what was there and you'll never guess what book was up on the shelf. Actually, do you want to guess? Joe: Yeah I want to guess. I'm looking around my office, Tools of Titans by Tim Ferriss? Mark: You know what? It actually was in there. Joe: It was in there. Mark: Not the one I'm referring to. Joe: The ONE Thing by John Keller? Now, wait let's call out one of our friends; Superfans by Pat Flynn? Mark: You know I don't know. There were a lot of entrepreneurial focused books so maybe that one was there; I don't know. Joe: Okay. Buy Then Build by Walker Deibel? Mark: Buy Then Build by Walker Deibel; yeah absolutely, that was on the shelf. In fact, they had multiple copies of it. They were giving that book away. And today; what is it? It's February 11th so we're a little bit past a year since Walker launched that book and it spent a year as number one on Amazon Bestseller in this category which is pretty fantastic. I mean obviously, we're super happy for Walker. He won an award for being the thought leader of the year through a major alliance of mergers and acquisition advisors. Joe: Huge. Mark: That is huge. He's had professors from Ivy League colleges come up and talk to him about the book. All of this leads me to something beyond just the accolades and that is the information that's out there in this space about what it's like to sell, what it's like to buy. Walker is talking on specifically which is the buy-side and how to use this as an investment vehicle, how to outsmart the Startup Game as he says and reduce some of that risk. But there's also a whole on the sell-side as well where people don't really know that their business is sellable or they don't think about it. But just yesterday I was reading something on the fastest way to build wealth; what is the fastest way to build wealth? And the conclusion that they had is the fastest way to build wealth is through building a business and selling it. This is one of the quickest ways to actually building wealth. And I know you've had guests on the podcast here who have talked about this process or you call it your Incredible Exits series. I'm really, really excited that you're writing a book on this and you're not calling it Incredible Exits despite everybody else's opinions that you should but it's these stories behind the scenes. Joe: Yeah I'm excited to be writing it finally. I sat down with some friends a year ago probably around a fire pit; maybe a year and a half ago because it was summertime. We're recording this in February of 2020 and I said look I'm making an announcement, I'm writing a book, I'm telling you guys to call me out on it and then I didn't do anything but I tried. I tried to write it. I tried to outline chapters. I tried to follow up… Mark: Hold on one second. You made this promise right on a fire pit with friends? Joe: Yes. Mark: How much did you consume before you made this promise? Joe: I'm a 2-drink maximum kind of guy, that's just the way I am. Mark: Okay. Joe: It's like giving myself an injection of the flu when I have more so it wasn't much. But I didn't get it done. It's a lot of work. So I followed the original book in a box method and didn't get it done at the scheduled time. I was at Brand Accelerator Live with our friend Scott Voelker last September and one of big Scott's announcements was that he actually wrote a book. And it is also here on my desk somewhere; where is it Scott? It's the Take Action Effect. I just turned my head away from the microphone, sorry folks. And I met his scribe; a young lady by the name of Brennan and I connected with her during the event and talked with her and said okay this is it I'm done. I'm hiring a scribe and I'm going to write the book. And I've talked to a number of people about it and let me just cover the process and then answer the question as to why the heck I'm doing this because it's a massive undertaking. The process is instead of actually writing a book myself with written words and a keyboard I get interviewed for I think it was 8 2-hour sessions; so 16 hours in interviews. First, we outlined the chapters and go through the whole process and instead of talking about; I mean writing an article or a chapter on seller's discretionary earnings and add-backs and the three levels of add-backs and all the different things that we talk about on a regular basis Brennan interviewed me. She transcribes the entire interview through UberConference and Rev.com for those that really want great transcription services. And now we're in the sort of lull between all of those interviews and me getting my first draft. They're going to give it to me in thirds. So the first one I will get will probably be I want to say mid to late March and then they'll drip it out in thirds every week for 3 weeks. They want to overwhelm me in terms of reviewing and editing. I still have a lot of technical stuff to add to it but it's really kicked the process into high gear. It's not cheap, let me tell you that. It's an expensive undertaking but I think given what we do for a living and how many people we're trying to help I think it's well worth it. Why am I writing a book? Walker's been an inspiration, very successful with Buy Then Build and the amount of people that he's been able to reach and help on the buy-side. We work with sell-side brokers or sell-side clients for the most part and I've done the math Mark, does it sound inconceivable that I've talked to 8,000 entrepreneurs over the last 8 years? Mark: Not at all. Joe: Yeah and that's probably a conservative number. I'm not saying I've had an in-depth evaluation with 8,000 of them but I have without a doubt talked to 8,000 and that does not count standing in front of a room with 3, 4, 500 people. And the challenge has been we've got to reach them one by one and I know that Walker's book has been as you said best seller. I think it's probably sold over 10,000 copies at this point. Mark: It's over 15 at least. Joe: 15,000 copies? Mark: Yeah, I actually talked to Walker about it a while ago. Joe: I think he told me something like 99% of books sells less than a hundred copies that are published. Now Walker, correct me if I'm wrong but it's pretty impressive. So to get what we share on those valuation calls into somebodies hands before, during, and after they have a valuation call and when they're in an audience that will give them every possible detail that we've developed over the last 8 plus years of doing what we do and sharing that in writing so that they can essentially change their mindset. And that's the goal of the book, it's to change their mindset from reaching out to us when they're sick and tired of running their business or they've had a bump where things get tougher and they say Gosh how can I sell this business? A buddy of mine told me I can get X multiple. I'm going to call Mark and say Mark how much can I sell my business for? I want to change people's mindsets. Instead of saying how much can I sell my business or more often they say how much is my business worth, I want them to say I want to build wealth like you said at the beginning and I want to sell my business for X dollars. I want to do that in 4 years. In order to do that, they need to understand where they are today. And the book is going to help them reverse engineer the path from where they are today to that exit so that they can do a partial valuation, get comfortable with brokers, and drive that path. I had a conversation with Mike Jackness recently and Mike talked about the fact that about what we do sometimes entrepreneurs just don't want to hear it because the idea of exit planning is so beyond what they're trying to do when they're just trying to keep the wheels on the bus, right? They're running out of inventory, they've got competitors coming at them from every angle, they're trying to do cash flow planning and it's just so hard that they can't see out the front window. The objective of the book is to sort of clear that window, have a clear path to an exit that they understand and it's a much better ride. I've been through it myself personally. You did it for me back in 2010. I could see nothing, understood nothing, we had a call, we had several calls and the light bulbs went off and I knew exactly the path to take and I'll tell you what operating my business became a lot more fun and exciting even though I was sick and tired of it after 5 years. Mark: You know the more I experience the business and grow as an entrepreneur the more I'm learning. With anything dealing with a goal really the best way to achieve these things is what you've said, reverse engineer it. Rather than just kind of impulsively decide that I'm going to do something figure out where you want to be and then reverse engineer. But in order to reverse engineer it, you need to understand the mechanisms that are going on to create that value. You're trying with this book to create a shift in the mindset of entrepreneurs, right? By the way, folks if you haven't figured this out we don't have a guest; Joe is the guest. I'm going to interview Joe about the book and maybe we'll talk a little bit about what it is like to do what Joe and I've been doing and everyone else at Quiet Light. Joe: Right, we're co-guests. We're co-hosts and co-guests today because I want to grill you too. Mark: Very good. Alright, I want to start out by saying okay let's talk about your experience. You've been doing this for 8 years. You've done literally tens of millions of dollars of transactions on your own within Quiet Light Brokerage. Joe: I'm fastly closing in on 100 million. Mark: That's right you are. You are; absolutely. Joe: Inaudible[0:11:17.8] 12 to 18 months; pretty shocking. That's amazing. Mark: Absolutely amazing. Talk to me about the mindset that you often see or most naturally see in an entrepreneur that comes to us to sell versus those rare cases of somebody who has planned to sell and what is the difference in the actual process value and stress levels I would say for everyone involved. Joe: Yeah. Look all the success stories that you guys hear about on the Incredible Exits for the most part those are people that had the mindset that they wanted to determine and plan out their exit. They got an education, they figured out what their exit goal was and they called Mark, myself, Jason, Amanda, Chuck, anyone of us and reverse engineer the path to that. They didn't call and say what's your fee, okay I want to list. It was this how does this whole thing work and then we worked with them over a 6, 12, or 18 month period sometimes even more. Those are the success stories that you're hearing about. The people you're not hearing about never sell their business because they call. They might have a call like this or I was just at eCommerceFuel last week as an event and kudos to Andrew Youderian and all the guests and all the people that are there; brilliant, so many smart folks. But even with that high level of entrepreneurial success and drive I still get e-mails like I've gotten this week which is a great chat last week, great presentation. I did a presentation with Mike about the sales of ColorIt. You've really inspired me to sort of try this path to an exit. And then I said okay well this is what I need. Yeah, I don't know I'm so busy with adding SKUs and I'm not really there yet. I'm not ready to sell yet. I'm not ready to think about selling yet. Whereas the yet it should be now regardless of where you are in the business. These people are already doing; the 2 that I'm thinking about where I got the e-mails like the one I don't know his growth. Well, I could do the math on his growth but the discretionary stands out that he's close to 600,000 in discretionary earnings and it is 5 to 6 times more than he ever made in his prior day job. And so he's trying to work towards an exit and retirement. The other was doing nearly 10 million in revenue and had a 25% decline. He's young, he's under 30 years old. And neither of these guys are really ready to exit. Of course, they're not ready to exit but I want them to set a financial goal. I don't care if it's 3 to 5 years from now. Set that goal. I need to exit for X in order to exit. And then figure out where they are, get the education, and work towards that. In 5 years if they're not ready to sell then move the goal post, move it 6 years down the road or 7 years down the road. That is as you said at the beginning the surest way to real financial wealth. But we're not talking about them yet because they're pausing, they're hesitating, they're not going to do it. Those are the stories that I talk about a little bit in the book. There's somebody that was my first million-dollar listing back in the day at Quiet Light. I remember it well. I'm not going to name names. We'll call him Big Mike. That's not his name but we'll call him Big Mike. He had no financials; none whatsoever. And I remember sitting over Christmas break taking all of his bank statements and I actually created the profit and loss statement myself. That is a no-no. We do not do that anymore. No. But I did it. I got it all detailed and accurate and listed the business for 1.1 million. I got an offer for 800 from the gentleman that you sold his business once upon a time. It was actually a good offer because the revenue trends were in decline. And Big Mike said to me well why would I accept it all I have to do is XYZ over the next 12 months and I'll make a quarter of a million dollars and then we can sell the business for 1.2, 1.3 million. And I had a great deal of experience in paid advertising at the time as you know because I just sold my business. This was probably 2012 or early '13. And so we walked through all the possibilities, what to do and how to do it and off he went. The problem was that Big Mike's heart was not in it anymore. He had run up all of his personal debt and personal expenses; his overhead was very high. He lived the life of a very, very successful entrepreneur and his business was no longer trending that way so money was getting tight. He didn't have the ability to pull money from the business and put it into the ad spend that he needed to to reverse it. And so every year for the following 3 years I got any mail from Big Mike that said something along the lines of hey my revenue and profit is at XYZ, can we sell the business for this? And each year it went from that offer from Tony of 800 to the value really was in about 600 the next year. And then the next year he sent me an e-mail it was really based upon what he had given me, about 500. The last time he sent me an e-mail it was about 400. Every single time I replied with based upon what you've given me which is just an email with numbers and I'd say your business value was probably X. Please run a profit and loss statement out of Quickbooks or Xero and export it to Excel with a monthly view. Silence, nothing for 12 more months because he didn't take the necessary steps to do what you have to do in protecting your most valuable asset, in his case his business. And so he's probably got a job, unfortunately. And that's the path unfortunately too many people go down or they learn from the mistakes and they hang up their hat on this particular business. They can't sell it and they move on to another one and hopefully learn from that mistake but it's a painful one. I just want to see people learn from that and therefore the painful process of writing a book. Mark: You know it's great to focus on the success stories. We like success stories. I like talking about success stories that make me happy. But for all these success stories that you have shared so far through the podcast that you'll be sharing through this book we also have the stories like that. And I could probably rattle off a number as well. Maybe I'll start a new podcast or write a book called Unincredible Exits or Nasty Exits or something like that. It will be real depressing and no one will ever want to read it. But you're absolutely right in; that example is really good. That example shows what we see so often from entrepreneurs where they're running; they're used to the hustle, they're used to the grind, they're used to being able to pull themselves up by their bootstraps to be able to correct something but sometimes when a business gets mature especially after you've run it for a while doing that can be really, really difficult. I also think it's; I want to re-emphasize something you said which is the picking number, reverse engineering, and getting to that number doesn't mean that you have to sell at that point. We've been pretty public and I will continue to be public by saying that the best scenario for you is to create a business that you can own for your life, right? Because it's difficult to start a business; the cash flow that they build is great, the value that is in them as assets is also fantastic. So I'm a big believer in building and holding or buying and holding and growing but that doesn't mean that exiting shouldn't be an option. And so when you hit that number, if you're not ready to sell you can always move the goalposts as you suggested or create a new goal. But something that I know you've told me in an email where we were discussing this book is you said one of the goals is to not allow the business to outgrow its founder. And boy this is an issue that comes up time and time again that we see and that is business owners were really good at starting, really good at founding something and even growing it to a certain extent getting to a point where making that next shift is difficult. I always describe that the growth path of a business is a series of climbs and plateaus. You climb to a point and it starts to plateau and then you have to change the business a little bit. Maybe you have to add new people; maybe you have to add a different structure to the business. And once you do then hopefully you start climbing again and then you hit another plateau and then it's another shift or another restructuring of the company or maybe a new initiative. What point and is there any examples that you've seen where somebody has hit that point where business is just about to outgrow them and they were smart enough to be able to not let it do that? Joe: Yeah the climbing the plateaus, by the way, let's not forget the valleys, right? Yes, my name is Joe Valley but… Mark: Don't forget the valley. Joe: There are two valleys here, right? It's a climb, it's a plateau, and then boom there's a really nasty valley right there and you're in it. You got to climb out of it. That's why I think it's important to actually do something that you like; something that you enjoy a little bit. It could be something that you're passionate about because when those tough times come and as an entrepreneur they will unless I'm unique and nobody else has tough times. I don't think I'm unique. You're going to have to fight and climb back out of that valley and on the other side there's a mountain, a peak; not a plateau hopefully. And those are great success stories to tell and very sellable businesses. But the idea of a business outgrowing the founder is not original, right? I mean this is something I've seen throughout my own entrepreneurial life where I used to do radio advertising. I owned a radio direct response media buying agency back when there were 800 numbers associated with 60-second spot ads. I could have held that business and grown it but it would have required more and more overhead in terms of people. I don't like managing a lot of people. I tell you what your job is and how to do it and I expect that you're going to work hard and do the best you can. If you don't I'm kind of blunt unfortunately and fortunately in some ways. So if you're in a situation and I see this a lot where buyers sometimes naively say well if it's so great why are they selling it? And it is because the business more often than not has outgrown them. They wanted to live the 4-hour workweek. It turned into 30 and that's okay. And they've got 5 VA's and that's okay. But in order to take it beyond just a SaaS business that's doing 2 million in revenue, they need to hire 3 more developers. They don't want to go through the headache and hassle of that. Or to take it off of Amazon they need to learn SEO offline or email marketing or whatever it might be and that's not their skill set. Or it's hiring people and that's not their skill set. And they learned that one of the greatest ways to earn wealth is to sell a business. Now people that buy Walker's book have learned that they can; a different breed, a different mentality of an entrepreneur comes in. They're not the startup entrepreneurs. They come in and they take over where that startup entrepreneur left off. The business has outgrown them and they hand it off to somebody like Matt Howeth who can. He comes from the corporate world. He's always had lots of travel, lots of staff, and lots of hours. He gets it. He can take it and bring that business in and have a team of employees, a team of VA's and manage it and take it up to the next level because that's his passion. That's what he does. He gets it. The startup is not his passion. It's not his skill set. So one of the things that I think is critically important and sometimes this only comes with age and mistakes and failures and successes and that is to figure out who the hell you are. What kind of entrepreneur are you? Mark: That brings in mind 2 clients I've worked with in the past 14 years now. And one of them; I've quoted this story before but he came to me with a business, I've never talked to him about sharing his story so I won't say what he was selling. But he was selling a physical product. He had initially acquired this business for 5 figures, like a mid-5 figure level and immediately grew the business significantly to the point where it was doing 7 figures in top-line revenue, mid-6 figures in discretionary earnings and so when he gave it to me to sell one of my very first questions was why are you selling? You've been growing year over year, you're only adding value to the business, this looks like a fantastic business, you've got great rankings, great positioning great pricing; all these things working in your favor and he said well right now I store all of the inventory in an external garage on my property. On Tuesdays and Thursdays, my son and I go out and we fill orders. It's really nice. It's like I don't have any more room for inventory and if I wanted to get another space I'm going to have to hire somebody and then I'm going to have to hire more people to handle the marketing. I just don't want to do that. I would rather cash out and move on. Meanwhile, another entrepreneur that I've dealt with, he was a CPA by trade and loved being on the buy-side and what he really, really enjoyed was taking a business that was somewhat complex, somewhat messy, somewhat inefficient in the way it was run and simplifying it. And I love; I've sold a couple of businesses for him, I love taking a look at where his businesses started. Their P&Ls were these super long crazy messes and by the time that he was ready to sell they were consolidated down into less than 30 lines because he simplified these businesses, really focused on this principle of 80:20 and said I'm going to just focus on what really makes sense and I'm going to get rid of all the rest of it. For him the act of cleaning it up was great but he would; unlike with Walker's book which is a lot of buy, build, and grow, his was I'm going to buy make more efficient and then I'm going to sell. And he did this several times and it was really fun to watch because he knew who he was. That first seller that I had, he knew who he was. He knew he didn't want to have a staff he had done that and didn't want to do it again. He loved running the business with his son. The second entrepreneur, he was a buyer, he knew what he liked, he also didn't want to have a large staff. There are other people out there that do want to build that team. There are people out there that say I want to have 100 million dollar exit so I'm going to buy a bunch of these businesses and build something or I'm going to acquire 15. They're all different types of entrepreneurs and everyone has different skill sets. Knowing who you are I think that right there is a great bit of advice but going back to what you were saying earlier Joe if you're so busy and in the weeds constantly and just running and hustling and hustling and hustling and never taking a moment to step back and to think about either the exit or about maybe this topic here of what type of entrepreneur are you, where do you want to see yourself in the next 5 years, what type of business operation do you want to have it's really hard to know where you're going and then your business drives you instead of driving your business and your career drives you instead of you driving your career. Joe: Yeah. Walker's book takes the mystery out of buying a business and the how-to and building it beyond that hence the title Buy Then Build or what he coined as acquisition entrepreneurship. My book The Exitpreneurs Playbook is going to take the mystery out of selling your business and setting those goals on what your exit is and reverse engineering a path to that. Now that I've said the title can we make fun of me in terms of predicting I don't know the future doom and gloom of this title because I did the opposite of what everybody told me to do? Mark: You know what? I like it. I remember doing this when I picked the Quiet Light Brokerage logo. I did 99 designs and I had everyone vote on different types and I hated what everybody chose. So I'm like well it's my business so I'm going to do my own thing. Joe: And you know it's a check, check, send something; I don't know, it must've been fall of last year and email out something about the Quiet Light logo and how it has stood the test of time so kudos to you. Yeah so I sent an e-mail out to a couple of dozen past clients that I sold their businesses and they're going to be part of the book. So part of the book is education and part inspiration; inspiration with them sharing some golden nuggets, wisdom, experience things that they wish they did differently. So I sent it out to them and then another say dozen of influencers that are in the space. People that we know well like Mike Jackness, Greg Mercer, Andrew Youderian, Ezra Firestone, things of that nature; people of that nature. And I think out of roughly 25 people Jason Yellowitz is the only one who said he liked Exitpreneur. Everyone else said Incredible Exits, Joe, it just rings, it rings. And there's been something about the term Exitpreneur that has stuck with me during the interview process and the more I said it out loud the more Brennan and I, and again she's my scribe, the more it just felt natural. Because that's what people are becoming when they sell their business, they're exitpreneurs. The difference between an entrepreneur and an exitpreneur is an entrepreneur is somebody that runs their own business but an exitpreneur is somebody that runs their own business and they have the knowledge and a plan. And I want to give them that knowledge in order to devise a plan and become one of those people that generate most of their wealth from an exit. So fingers crossed on that. Can I do a shameless plug right now for the Quiet Light Podcast where I think we're about 25 minutes in and just a little bit of a shameless plug? I have to tell you… Mark: I felt like this whole thing was a shameless plug for your upcoming book. Joe: I know but I don't even; I haven't even put up a website yet. There's no Facebook group. Really what it is, is a plug for education because part; in truth, I've said the same thing 8,000 times over and over. Maybe I'm just tired of saying it so I'm… Mark: With that Joe when I was on this trip recently I was in the airport and thinking about Mission, Vision, Values for Quiet Light Brokerage and I don't have the vision statement out yet but this component of education, if it's not part of our main vision it's definitely one of our core values and really something that I've built up. I was speaking to somebody just this morning before we recorded this about one of the goals or one of the mission; I'm sorry one of the core values of Quiet Light is to give entrepreneurs the right education and the right set of tools to be able to make good informed decisions. Because when I sold my business I didn't feel like I had that. I felt like I was misled. I felt like I was put in a position where somebody wanted to get me in an exclusive contract, promised me big bucks, and then when I went to go sell I was completely unprepared. I didn't know what was happening and so when I started Quiet Light the goal has been from day one not to tell anyone to sell but to give them the tools so that they know what their business is worth today, what it could be worth in the future, what's driving its value so that you can just make a good decision. That's your decision. So the education piece and I joke about this being a shameless plug; the reason that I'm excited about this, and I genuinely am excited that you're writing this book is because that education piece needs to be out there. And I love the idea; more than the idea, love the opportunity that we have to educate entrepreneurs of what's available to them if they transition from an entrepreneur to exitpreneur, understanding that, the bulk of the wealth that you build in your lifetime for most entrepreneurs will be at that exit. That might be 2 years from now, that might be 20 years from now, either case it's fine but having that plan to maximize that value and keeping the process smooth is important. Sorry, I totally cut you off of that but I want to emphasize that the education piece is really what I'm super excited about. Joe: Now we were going to do 2 parts of this podcast, a little bit on the book and a little bit about the philosophy behind Quiet Light's foundation and how you built the company and the entrepreneurial approach. So let's do a; I think we should do an entire podcast on this business and how it's built with entrepreneurs helping entrepreneurs just to educate people more about who we are, what we do, and why we do it because I think it's necessary and you've done an incredible job with the model. But in terms of the education, I got a voicemail yesterday and this is the type of thing I want everybody out there that thinks they don't have time to do it and they're just keeping the wheels on the bus so to speak, take the time to make time for planning your exit using the educational tools that we provide whether it's this podcast or articles or Walker's book on my eventual book or having a conversation because that's an education tool. Have a conversation with an adviser at Quiet Light. Really do it. But I got a voicemail from somebody who I sold businesses for, very, very well off financially, runs a family office now, bought a business from Walker for around 8 million dollars in 2019. And he heard the podcast on product innovation, product development with Zack at Gembah. And he just left a voicemail yesterday saying hey man I just want to let you know on the way back home from Austin I got a chance to meet with Zack and we're going to go ahead and do some product innovation, product expansion, adding a number of new SKUs and accessories to the brand. I really appreciate it. I don't know if enough people tell you that we actually use the tools that you share so thank you. It's great to hear that. So thank you sir; I'm not going to say your first name, for reaching out and letting us know. For the rest of us this is the shameless plug part and I've said this, I said this at Blue Ribbon Mastermind and I said it in eCommerceFuel, Mark you and I have done now I think it was 114; I checked this morning, podcasts. So that's how many are up on iTunes. We've got a total of 31 reviews. They're all huge close to 5-star reviews. Thank you, everyone, who has given us reviews. I wasn't aware that we had any at all because we hardly ever plug it. And so I was at Blue Ribbon Mastermind talking to David Wood who will be a guest on the podcast in a few weeks. He's a personal coach and a good friend of Ezra's and he said something about he was on 70 podcasts last year and he chose which ones to go on based upon the number of reviews. So I checked ours. We have 31; pleasantly surprised. I checked the EcomCrew, Mike Jackness and he's got 81. So I stood on stage at Blue Ribbon Mastermind and I said everybody come on now Mike's not here, I want one more reviews than Mike has. He's been doing; I think he's done 3 times as many podcasts as us so we're doing okay. But please if you enjoy the podcast, if you like the podcast take a minute and go to iTunes or Stitcher or wherever you're listening and pop in a review. We greatly appreciate it and share the information and wealth with all the others that need it. Mark: Yeah. There's a video out there and I don't know if we're going to be posting it on our YouTube channel but there's a video out there of you making this plug at Blue Ribbon Mastermind and Ezra is standing there with you and he's thinking this is what you're using the stage time for? Like you have the opportunity to talk about what Quiet Light does and all you're doing is trying to beat Mike Jackness and like absolutely I'm trying to beat Mike Jackness that's it. Joe: We won't be sharing that video. That's not ours to share but I shared it with the team and had a good laugh at myself because of it so no doubt about it. Mike's a great guy. Ezra is a great guy. We don't mention people that we don't like obviously so if we've never mentioned you oh boy that's a long list; oh no, I can't say that. Let's just say thanks; final thanks, Mike Nuñez. Thank you, Mike. Mark: Yeah, Mike Nuñez, absolutely. I think that's a great way to end up this episode here. Let's do one in the future about the building of Quiet Light Brokerage and I'd also love to get feedback from people that have listened this far through this episode and are listening right now. Are there topics that you'd like to hear us talk about outside of bringing guests in? And we can bring on people within Quiet Light Brokerage, bring in Walker on the podcast again or Chuck or Brad or any of the many entrepreneurs that are working with Quiet Light Brokerage. Anything you want us to talk about specifically when it comes to buying or selling? We'd love to know, we want to produce content that you guys wanted to hear so feel free to hit me up Mark@QuietLightBrokerage or Inquiries@QuietLightBrokerage as well. Joe: Awesome. Thanks, everyone. Links and Resources: Quiet Light Brokerage

christmas amazon vision talk mission mindset tools silence va values rev seo stitcher titans saas cpa salt lake city excel cultivate ivy league tim ferriss xyz amazon best seller quickbooks pat flynn superfans xero big mike david wood skus ezra firestone markit quiet light brokerage joe valley quiet light greg mercer mark you walker deibel scott voelker startup game joe it mark yeah mark how mike jackness uberconference exitpreneur joe yeah andrew youderian gembah ecommercefuel john keller joe there mark don mark okay mark absolutely joe now quiet light podcast brand accelerator live

Incredible Exits: How to Build the Pillars of a Successful Business With Paul Anderson

Play Episode Listen Later Feb 25, 2020 33:19

One year ago we listed a business that created a massive amount of activity, garnering ten offers, many above asking price. As part of our incredible exit series, today we welcome a seller who has had some time to reflect on all the things he did right in his sale and share what he has been up to since. Paul Anderson started his career as an accountant, taking the safe path and spending ten years in corporate America. An increasing lack of passion led him to start to build his own lifeboat. He avidly studied Amazon FBA and learned by following experts in the e-commerce space. Although his first launch failed he carried on, honing his awareness of product opportunities out there and eventually he hit it big. Today Paul delves into the building of the business, the pillars of his success, and the components of his path to becoming an exitpreneur. Episode Highlights: Paul's first product's failure to launch and what he learned. How he sourced the second product and what happened in the last quarter of 2016. Funding subsequent stock and the challenges of inventory planning. How Paul stands on all four pillars of a successfully built business as well as that invisible fifth pillar. The scheduling and nitty gritty of the sale process. How the final buyer was chosen and the deciding factors for Paul. Why the highest bidder does not always win. The toughest challenges of running the business. Why Paul decided to sell. What he has been doing since the sale. Tips for building a successful content website. Transcription: Mark: So almost one year ago to the date of the recording of this episode of the podcast I was on a car ride with Joe; you Joe from where was it? It was from Dallas down to Houston and then Houston back up to Dallas. We were meeting with a good friend of ours that lived in Houston and while we were in that car ride you had launched a new listing that went absolutely berserk. And I've referenced this; I think we've actually talked about this on the podcast a few times, I've referenced this deal because it was one of these outlier deals that seem to check every single box and the result was just a massive amount of requests for phone calls and I believe 10 offers within a very short amount of time. And it's been a year since that launched and obviously, the deal closed which we're super happy about but now you finally get to have the seller on the podcast talking about all the things that he did right. Joe: Yeah it's a great time because it's a year out so he gets to look back. And over the years of doing this podcast the people listening have heard us talk about the four pillars; risk, growth, transferability, and documentation and someone might go yeah ok whatever, the reality is that they matter. Paul Anderson sold his business; 10 offers, he checked off every one of these pillars and the six little subtitles under each pillar and then the fifth one which I know Mark there's no fifth pillar, but the fifth one is the man or person or entrepreneur behind the business. Paul being a former CPA turned entrepreneur who outsourced his bookkeeping to a bookkeeper is just a super likable guy, stay at home dad, buttoned up in so many different ways. The end result is I had to clear his schedule; he basically had three conference calls with highly qualified buyers for five days in a row. He was exhausted from it because each one was… Joe: So you had 15 conference calls then. Paul: 15 conference calls. Joe: And I remember again we were in the car going back up to Dallas and you were on the phone pretty much constantly telling people okay let me see if I can arrange a time for you. So there was a lot more requests for conference calls on this deal. Paul: A lot more requests and we say we had 10 offers but finally a few people dropped out because they just didn't want to compete because they knew what it is going to be. And the funny thing is people get concerned about that and we always say right up front look don't get caught up in the hype of multiple offers, don't go beyond your comfort level, offer-wise. We want you to make an offer that works for you and hopefully will work for the seller as well because we want it to go all the way from letter of intent through to due diligence and that's exactly what we wound up with. And oddly enough Paul did not choose as we always say they don't necessarily choose the highest price. He didn't do that. He picked the offer that was best for him and I think it was somewhere $150,000 lower than the highest price. So we talked about a little bit of that process, what makes a good seller, a good buyer, and then we talked about what he's doing today which is really interesting as well so hopefully, everybody will enjoy this podcast. Joe: Absolutely. Paul: Let's go to it. Joe: Hey folks. Joe Valley here from the Quiet Light Podcast and today I have an Incredible Exits client on the phone with me. It's Paul Anderson. We sold Paul's business I think; when was it, Paul? Paul: March of last year, so a little under a year ago. Joe: Spring of 2019; so a little under a year ago. So we're going to talk about Paul's exit. We're going to talk about what Paul went through when he built the business, sold the business after he sold the business, and what he's doing now so we're going to get the full picture. Paul welcome to the Quiet Light Podcast. Paul: Thanks Joe, good to be here. Good to talk to you. Joe: So for the folks listening why don't you give a little bit of background on your professional pedigree and your entrepreneurial journey? Paul: Yeah, sure. So I actually studied accounting and followed that path. I was kind of one of those people that never really knew what I wanted to do. Like some people I think they're just like hey I want to be a TV news reporter or a journalist, I never really had that strong thing tapped me on the shoulder that said this is what you should do so I took a pretty safe practical path. I went into accounting and got my CPA. I spent about 10 years working in corporate America doing accounting and finance jobs and didn't really ever feel like that passion and eventually it started to kind of wear me down. I got to the point where I had to think of something else to do and try to build my own little lifeboat to escape from that because something inside me just didn't feel right anymore doing that. So that's kind of what led into starting a business. So that's in 2016. Somewhere; I don't even remember where I started to hear about Amazon FBA and I kind of consumed everything I could about it like podcasts, there's this guy Manny Coats inaudible[00:06:09.6] Helium10, he had a great podcast back then, Amazing Seller; there's all sorts of good stuff online about the model and that's kind of how it started and I started really small. We can get into it from there but that was kind of the first step, learning about it and seeing like oh I think I could do this. Joe: So you learned about it from podcasts; you didn't pay for a course or anything like that, you were absorbing free information from experts in the space. Paul: I never bought a single course it was all podcasts, Facebook groups, Reddit forums, and I was just… Joe: I love it. Paul: Yeah I can tell you about the first launch which was a total fail but that was like my training course like the very first launch because I learned. Joe: Failure is a great lesson. How much money did you pull together to launch the business and were you working at that point in the CPA business? Paul: Yeah I was still working. It was 2016, I put $5,000 in to do; most of it was an inventory buy so I was on Alibaba like at night trying to find my suppliers talking with China and I put in probably about 5,000 bucks to start on my first product. Joe: Okay. And you just mentioned Helium10; did you use Helium10 to help you find that first product? Paul: Yes. So it's funny like almost all the products I launched I've kind of like encountered in the real world somewhere and the product that turned out to be my big business was I kind of got onto it from a discussion with my parents. We're just having a casual discussion like you would have many times a day and they mentioned this particular thing and I would always in my iPhone put down; anything that seemed interesting I would just like log it in there and then I come back to it. So I had a list of 20 to 30 things going and I went back and started doing some research. I actually was using Jungle Scout back then and I switched over to Helium10 for everything now. Joe: Oh they're both great products; both of them. Manny and Greg have both been on the podcast; great guys. Paul: Yeah, for sure. So I kind of punched it in there and said like oh this looks like; the numbers look good and that's kind of how it started but it really was that conversation being like; I think if there's a lesson there it's being aware, we have so many kinds of filters and blinders on like if you really put yourself in the headspace of looking for opportunities you'd be surprised how many little things you read online or you hear about through friends like this is really popular; there's just all sorts of those little things that pop up that could turn out to be big businesses. Joe: So pay attention to your surroundings; the stuff that you use every day, emerging products in categories and niches and try to pay attention to and think is there an opportunity? Did you use any tools to see if a lot of people were selling in that particular category and that particular product? Paul: I mean Jungle Scout helps with that but mainly you can just go on and kind of assess like if page one everyone's got a thousand reviews and they're really well-known brands or something that's probably going to be a tough place to break into. Joe: Tough barrier; okay. So tell us about your first test, it was an epic fail? Paul: Yeah, so I was really pumped and thought like here it is, this is going to be like my ticket out of full-time work and it's going to be amazing and it was actually an accessory. Have you ever heard of pour-over coffee? Joe: Yeah. Paul: So that was kind of just bubbling up, seeming like oh this is really a trending product… Joe: Too much work; I never bought it because… Paul: Too much work, yeah, but there's a lot of people that are really into the craft obviously a coffee one and having some artisan experience. So I sourced these little wooden coffee stands that's basically used to make pour-over coffee. And it was kind of a cool thing but it turns out products made out of wood can crack and can break and have issues and I was not an expert at sourcing at that point in time so the long story short a lot of the products ended up cracking and breaking. And then once you start getting all these one-star reviews and returns; like my garage was full all around with carts of returned inventory and there wasn't that much demand I think. At the start, I was thinking oh you really got a niche down into this little tiny space and own that and there just wasn't quite enough demand in that space either. So I kind of learned to be a little smarter on sourcing and just to look for ways that things can go wrong inaudible[00:10:31.6] thing that's just so niche that like even if you execute and everything is great like you're going to be selling a couple of units a day. Joe: So how much money did you test and lose on that first product launch? Paul: So that was about 5,000 bucks in and I didn't take to bad a bee but I think I lost about a thousand dollars on it which isn't bad. Joe: Oh that's not bad. Paul: Yeah. Joe: Not enough to make you go away and say okay this didn't work I'm done; I'm going to go back to the corporate world. You got a taste for it and you said okay I just picked the wrong product. Paul: Exactly. And I mean I was still in the corporate world and like 5,000 bucks it's not like a lot of money at the time so it wasn't like I was; I'm like yeah whatever it doesn't matter. At that point, the stakes felt real and high. Joe: Yeah. Paul: Because it definitely was like I can see the power here on Amazon it's just like finding the right thing to really get this thing spinning. Joe: Okay. So you learned a lesson; you only lost 20% of your money but you get an excellent education from it better than any course you could have ever purchased. You went out there tried it, failed, learned, and didn't lose so much that you couldn't do it again. So you came up with another product niche and decided to go at it again? Paul: Exactly yes. So then I was actually going over to; are you familiar with the Canton Fair which is the big supplier…? Joe: Yeah. Paul: So I had a trip booked to go over there and kind of in-between going there… Joe: Just out of curiosity did you book it with a group or was it just you? Paul: Just me and my wife went over. Joe: Oh okay, because I was just talking to Athena from China Magic and they have a group of folks that go on a regular basis for those that are terrified to go alone. So you and your wife chose to book a flight to China and go to the Canton Fair alone. Paul: I loved it. It was really, really full out and I'm eager to go over there. Joe: Okay. Paul: I actually ended up finding my supplier on Alibaba before I went so I can't really say that the trip necessarily paid off in terms of like… Joe: Did you connect with him in person when you got to the Canton Fair? Paul: No because it was still too early and he was pretty far away from the Canton Fair. I think it helped me really see kind of like the culture of China and doing business with China and I think just a little savvier about how things work. So it was a great education for that and just like a lot of fun to check it out; I mean the place is just massive, like multiple football fields. Anything you want to ever source it would be out there so it was a super interesting spot. But anyway back to your second question so yes I stumbled upon this other product and started kind of the wheels turning in 2016 to source it. I got it on I think in the fall of 2016 and I remember that Q4 for Amazon or e-commerce is like the prime time and I remember just refreshing that seller app that Black Friday, Cyber Monday, like all through up until Christmas and it was just mind-blowing the sales that were coming in off this new product. Joe: What was it like your first day that you got a sale, how many sales did you have all together; do you remember? Paul: Oh I mean it started slow. The first thing was probably just two or three units. I mean it's really; it was in such a momentum game like when you have no momentum it's hard to keep momentum and then once you get this momentum going and the wheels start spinning it can blow your mind like the amount of sales that… Joe: And that actually blew our mind within the first month or in that first quarter like what did you wind up with on the biggest day within a couple of months of launching it in the Q4 of ‘16? Paul: I don't want to say maybe like $8,000 of sales there. Joe: Oh, wow. Paul: Something big like and then when you look at the profits from that it's like wow I made more money like on this one day than; and I had a pretty decent corporate job, I'm like this is crazy like the potential. So the hooks kind of got in me right there and then '16 was kind of just getting off the ground and then the next year is when the ball really started to roll. Joe: When you started to get revenue in the fourth quarter of 2016 and sales started to come in you had euphoria with the fact that you were getting that kind of revenue and making more money in one day than you made perhaps in a month in the corporate world but did you also have the fear of oh my God I'm going to run out of inventory? Paul: I did. Joe: Okay. Paul: Yeah, inventory is like not something glamorous to talk about and you don't really hear about it that much in podcasts or anything else but it's like running a physical products company doing an Amazon business like the inventory planning is so difficult because your sales can change on a dime. inaudible[00:15:20.7] your supplier 30 days early to make something and another 30 days to put them on a ship to get it over here. So you've got these difficult variables to manage that can leave you stocked out or even a little bit too much stuck so that's always a tough thing to manage. Joe: Awesome. I don't think I've ever met an Amazon seller or an e-commerce business person that's been growing rapidly that's not run out of inventory at one point or another. All right, so you started with $5,000, did a test, failed, how long between the first failed test and the second product that took off; how many months was it? Paul: That was about three months I think. Joe: Okay, and all the time you kept your day job which is fantastic. So you've got some revenue, you've got some money in the account that's transferred to your business account, at what point did you order more inventory with and did you just use that money or did you sit down and talk as a family and say okay this is a winner we need to take a home equity line of credit; how did you fund the rest of the inventory purchases? Paul: It was all really funded with profits. Joe: It was? Okay. Paul: Yeah, it was. Joe: And you didn't have to take any money out for living expenses because you had your day job so that's perfect. Paul: Yeah. If I wouldn't have my day job it would have made it much more difficult but luckily I had some steady income coming in on the day job and then I was able to just take the profits and reinvest them back in and just go from there. Joe: Fast forwarding you had an amazing 2017, an amazing 2018; strong year over year growth, like huge year over year growth. For those listening, Paul's business was listed again spring of 2019 and it's those perfect situation folks where we talk about the four pillars of a sellable business and that invisible fifth one which is the person behind the business and that's Paul. We have a 30-month-old Amazon business with an incredible brand that's growing rapidly year over year. The financials we're set up impeccably. Paul is a CPA but he did something incredible which was what? You outsourced the books to an e-commerce bookkeeper; brilliant by the way. So those of you that are out there saying oh I can do this I'm not going to pay a few hundred bucks to a bookkeeper we've got a CPA here that chose to outsource to an e-commerce bookkeeper because he can do better things than bookkeeping with his time like grow a multi-million dollar Amazon brand which is exactly what you did. Your business checks so many boxes. It was SBA eligible. You were the owner behind the business. You built trust. People believed in you. During the recorded video interview, you're the first person; and I keep asking people to do it now, you're the first person that ever sat in front of the camera, reached down picked up the product and demonstrated the product. You showed the new packaging that you had just done. It was beautiful and the end result was an overwhelming request to buy the business, conference calls where you had to clear your schedule for a week. I said Paul cancel everything, right? We had to clear it and we ended up with I think three calls with qualified buyers every day for five days. We wound up with 10 total offers. I think we were at; the top one was something like $150,000 over asking price. Paul: Yeah, I think that's right. Yeah. Joe: Yeah, and we say this all the time that it's not always the offer that comes in with the highest number, it's the right fit more than anything else. We had; of the 10 offers, I think we had maybe six that were SBA and four that were cash. You ended up choosing a cash buyer and not just because it was a cash buyer but also the person behind the business. We did video interviews between the buyer and seller. How much did that matter and how much of a difference did that make for you? Paul: The interviews mattered a ton. I mean that was the deciding factor because when I went into the process I just thought like well it's pretty simple, right? You take the highest number and the highest bidder wins but as you get into it and talk to different people it's like a huge diverse set of backgrounds that people are coming through Quiet Light looking to buy, right? Joe: Right. Paul: And some people I felt like wow I could just hand this to them and they could run with it immediately and do like as good or better a job with this than I ever could. And others are like hey I really like this person and their heart is in the right place but I feel like the transition might take a little bit longer and then what if somewhere they dropped the ball and things get sideways like I don't want that somehow to come back to me. I don't know if that's a rational way to think about it but if there was a lot of comfort like feeling this guy or these guys I feel like really got it, they get it, they know what to do, they will hit the ground running from day one so to me that mattered a whole lot. Joe: Yeah. And I think given the fact that we're in this remote world where your buyers and sellers are all over the world literally sometimes doing a video conference call for that initial call breaks the ice. You're not reading the client interview anymore, you're not just talking to somebody on the phone; you can see the whites of their eyes and anybody that wants to see Paul we're recording this both on Zoom with video and audio and it will be up on the YouTube page as well. He does not look like a buttoned-up CPA today and I was making fun of him when we first got on the call. You've always looked like that but today you know what you're a successful exitpreneur. You got the sweatshirt on, a little stubble, working from home; I love it. All right so I want to you ask a couple of things just for the audience purposes. Number one back to running the business what was the toughest challenge in running the business? Let's start with that. Go ahead. Paul: Yeah. I'd say even at the start this isn't even a tactical thing but the hardest thing was just getting the momentum going. Starting an Amazon business is not like hey I'm trying to create an electric car and beat Elon Musk but even me like I had a lot of doubts at the start like is this is going to work, am I going to lose all my money? All of these doubts kind of creep into your head so I remember really kind of struggling to pull the trigger in a way thinking like I just don't know is this supposed to be my pathway? So I think that was really hard to overcome and you just kind of keep going one foot in front of the other and once you get a little momentum it just like brings all this energy and life into you that you just feel so energized to just keep improving and add products and make your products better and make the packaging better. Getting that first momentum can feel elusive and challenging so I think that was like a big thing at the start. Joe: And you failed and then you stuck with it and then you succeeded. Paul: Yeah. And I was kind of at an inflection point like should I keep going or is this just not meant to be and then you know. Joe: This may be a dumb question but are you glad you kept going? Paul: I'm very glad. It changed my life that I kept going. I mean I'd still be sitting at a desk in corporate America right now I hadn't kept going and like we've got a three-year-old son at home like the physical time we will spend with him and then mentally my head is so much like the stress is away from me. So I was always stressed working in corporate America so it's been the biggest blessing ever to go out and do this. It's changed my whole family's life. Joe: Okay. So let me ask the question that all buyers ask, why did you sell the business? Paul: Yeah, it was a tough decision to sell because I was having so much fun running it. And I think the honest answer is the value of the business became such that it really could provide a lot of security for our family. And it felt like if I was 23 and single and didn't have kids I'll like alright instead of going for this I might have just keep on going and try to sell it for three times this or five times this or just keep going. But knowing Amazon can be volatile and like I had all my eggs in that basket so it just felt like the responsible thing is to take some chips off the table and let go of the business but it was really hard. Joe: The responsible thing; I like that, the responsible thing. Your CPA background is coming out now. That's good. Paul: Yeah. Joe: All right so what was the toughest part about going through the sales process and selling the business; what was the hardest part there? Paul: Picking a buyer was really tough. Joe: It's a good problem. That's a good problem to have. Paul: I mean just even knowing how to approach it and you really helped a ton Joe in that process. When it's your first time through and you already have kind of these emotions like you built this thing and now it's worth something that people want it, it's a weird feeling and like how to value it and how to find the right fit and thinking about SBA versus cash; there's just a lot of things that are spinning through your head at that time so I think just getting a clear head and trying to identify what the right fit was the toughest part. Joe: Okay. I think you again exception rather than really had 10 offers, I think maybe one or two might have come in slightly under asking price but the vast majority was above. I think 2019 the average offers that we had on any single listening was two and a half so you are five times that amount which is pretty exceptional. That goes to the brand that you built. It goes to the way that you set the business up with its own entity. You didn't come and go books. You're a CPA but you hired a professional bookkeeper. You instilled so much confidence in buyers. They clearly came out of the woodworks to buy your business. All right, the toughest part was choosing the buyer; that's amazing. It's not what I would've guessed you would have said. Sometimes it's due diligence but with you, it was choosing a buyer. All right so now there's life after the sale, you were in the corporate world working 40, 50 hours a week or sometimes more in tax season and then you're an entrepreneur working from home spending time with your son now what are you doing? You've sold the business nine months ago, what are you doing with your time? Paul: Yeah so it's been nice to have a little; in life usually you're just like chasing after the next thing and I've had just the time to step back and think really what I want to do and what I want my life to look like so it's been like a real luxury. So I'm going into; I'm building a website, it's called WealthFam.com. Joe: Fam like family? Okay. Paul: Yup like family. It's brand new but basically it sort of like combines my background and what I like to do. So it's all about building wealth; becoming financially independent, starting and running online businesses. Basically, it's how to be smarter with your money and use the money to help kind of enable the life that you want to live whether it's being with your kids or going on trips or whatever else. So it's a content site which is a super interesting thing. I thought a lot about going back and doing another Amazon business but I just didn't feel the same spark for like starting it and it takes a lot of energy and mental fortitude to take something from A to Z and you've got to really want it kind of every step of the way. So this just kind of really energized me and there's been some great stories like Ramon's story; you featured Ramon. It like blew my mind the… Joe: His content site, yeah. Paul: And that happened in the content space so that was really exciting to me. And on top of that I just like doing this stuff so it feels like the right sort of fit. Joe: So what kind of subjects are you going to cover on Wealth Fam? Paul: So it's broken down a couple of categories like making money, saving money, investing money, financial independence, and then some stuff like how money intersects with having a kid and being married or buying a house. So I'm trying to make it like a modern personal finance site that people in their teens, 20s, 30s, can find well like at least from my experience like education society; like our schools and in general, there's not a lot of like real training about… Joe: There's none of it. There's none of it, yeah. Paul: And there's even a lesson mode like starting an online business and like the potential kind of betting on yourself. Joe: It seems like a great idea because you're taking your educational experience along with your entrepreneurial experience and marrying them together with a content site which is great. I love content sites. We work with SaaS, content, and FBA and content is just fantastic. Scott Voelker is really, really focused on helping people go beyond FBA and build content sites and some of them have great success and its driving more traffic back to FBA and getting their business products sold. For those that aren't familiar with content site monetization, how do you plan to monetize the site? Paul: So there's a couple of traditional ways that people will do it. So, first of all, you have to have traffic. I mean if I have traffic inaudible[00:28:43.3] selling eyeballs like it's tough to; getting traffic is really hard and you're playing like this SEO game and it takes a long time to rank in Google. Then there's a couple of primary ways, the first is affiliate links like you could be selling a course or selling something on Amazon or selling; the Amazon FBA thing is a really interesting thing for Amazon sellers to marry their inaudible[00:29:04.9] business with content. I love that idea. I think that's really smart. There's brand sponsorships, other partnerships; but it's like advertising and affiliate income are kind of the two main plays for monetizing. Joe: I got you, okay. All right how's life at home; what do you do with your time? I mean you've you don't have a job. You're starting a content site which might take a little bit of your time. You've got a baby. Paul: It takes a lot of time. Joe: It takes a lot; the startup phase is always the hardest, isn't it? Paul: Inaudible[00:29:38.4] the thing I underestimated about content is that like writing is really hard. Joe: Yeah. Paul: I think oh I can write something about Amazon, that's easy, I know this. It takes a lot of time to really do a good job at clarifying your thoughts but overall I'm just trying to optimize my life for happiness and contentment and I get that right now being with my son and my wife. So I spend a lot of time with my family. We do a lot of cool stuff together. And I'm really liking; I do some Amazon consulting because I'm still at the Amazon blog and I like to be involved in it so I'm doing some of that for some local companies which I love doing. Joe: Good. Paul: And then this content thing really is exciting and fun and I'm going to see where it can go and… Joe: So you didn't make enough on the sale of your business to never work again but enough to give you a pretty long runway and you're enjoying your expertise in the Amazon space and doing some consulting while you're building up another content or a content business? Paul: Yeah that's a fair way to… Joe: Does that sum it up? Paul: Yeah and I'd like to go up those kind of shift too, right? I'm not sure how in-tune you are with the financial independence world, all the people that want to retire early and be financially… Joe: Oh yeah, fire. Paul: So like if your burn rate or you can live on 40 grand a year once you stacked up a million bucks, in theory, you can quote-unquote retire. Joe: Sure. Paul: But as you think about education and college and healthcare and all these other things that number maybe gets a little bit… Joe: It gets blown out of the water. I have an 18-year-old and we're 14 days away from knowing what he's getting into which is schools and I'm rooting for the in-state schools; I'm not going to lie to you, I'm rooting for the in-state. Paul: Hey, I went to an in-state school and… Joe: Look at how it turned out; pretty damn good. Paul: Yeah. Joe: All right cool. Well, listen Paul I always tell the story about you and your brand and the fact that that fifth pillar makes a huge difference. It's the person behind the business that builds a great business with the next owner in mind. You kind of did that, I don't know if you did it intentionally or not but you said I'm going to build a great business. I want to put it all in a package that's going to help the new owner of the business do amazing things with it. And Matt the new owner of the business as you know is doing amazing things with it. And it pays off when you think about others exactly what you did that paid off for you, it paid off for your family, and now hopefully through Wealth Fam, it's going to pay off for a lot of other visitors to your website as well so people can start young and start smart and get on the right path financially. So listen man thanks for your time. I appreciate the business that you've built because it allows me to tell a story of how the person behind the business makes a tremendous difference so thank you and I appreciate you coming on the podcast today. Paul: You got it. Anytime. Thanks a lot, Joe. Links and Resources: Paul's Website Jungle Scout Helium 10

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Joost Breeksema - The Interdisciplinary Conference on Psychedelic Research

Psychedelics Today

Play Episode Listen Later Feb 4, 2020 72:17

In this episode, Joe interviews Joost Breeksema from the Netherlands to talk about the Interdisciplinary Conference on Psychedelic Research. In the show they cover topics on ICPR 2020, and the importance of accessibility. 3 Key Points: The Interdisciplinary Conference on Psychedelic Research takes place April 24-26, 2020 in the Netherlands. It's important to acknowledge the indigenous, ethical, and political dimensions to psychedelic use at conferences. Although this conference will be catered toward mainstream science and research, personal experiences and stories are important too. Support the show Patreon Leave us a review on iTunes Share us with your friends – favorite podcast, etc Join our Facebook group - Psychedelics Today group – Find the others and create community. Navigating Psychedelics Show Notes About Joost Joost is a part of the OPEN Foundation ICPR is a huge conference Nobody before was doing research on psychedelics in the Netherlands William James work sparked Joost’s interest in psychedelics ICPR Starting with the OPEN Foundation, the conference has been very scientific It is interdisciplinary, but also taken very seriously This field is so broad, you could really never get bored Wade Davis, Alicia Danforth, Matt Johnson and more will be speaking at the conference There will be over 80 speakers Joost expects it to be a pretty international conference, half local, and half from abroad Psychiatrists are usually short on time, and they like things compressed more It's really easy and cheap to grow psilocybin as mushrooms or truffles Even in Mexico, they need to use GMP Psilocybin Accessibility “If this is going to be the treatment, how are we going to help people afford it?” - Joe There is some tricky stuff happening, companies trying to patent different parts of psilocybin to use it for therapeutic use Ketamine has been off patent for years, but you can develop a new route of administration, patent that, and make a ton of money Spravato is making it to the UK Conference Themes Joost is both excited and scared that they are bringing indigenous practitioners to the conference It's important to acknowledge the indigenous, ethical, and political dimensions to psychedelic use Talking about concepts and approaches to healing is going to be an important aspect The goal would be to do research with the indigenous communities to be able to address the needs of psychedelic use There are also a few neuroimaging people coming For mainstream scientists, the conference has to be as close to a scientific conference as possible, they may be turned off to the cultural aspects of psychedelics It's the conservative nature of psychedelia Joost also says that although the scientific research is important, it is really cool to hear the personal experiences Joe brings up a previous episode of a therapist and patient from the MDMA trials Stories are much more convincing than just data People’s experience with psychedelics may be completely different from each other It's important to share the bad stories with the good stories If we don't share the stories and data and research, then we can never learn Joe hopes that there will be a growth of citizen science in the near future Links ICPR About Joost Joost Breeksema is a part of the OPEN Foundation, which from it came the Interdisciplinary Conference on Psychedelic Research. His current research focuses on the experiences of patients that are undergoing therapy assisted by psychedelic substances. His aim is to better understand psychological mechanisms of action/change, to tease out salient themes, and finally to learn about what works and what does not work in psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy. Use code PSYTODAY at Onnit for a discount on all products except fitness equipment Get a 30 day free audible trial at audibletrial.com/psychedelicstoday

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Future-proof Your Business and Rock the Recession With Jonathan Slain

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 21, 2020 30:24

There is always a recession coming, we just don't know when. The US is in one of the longest expansion periods ever known but many predict a recession in the next twelve to twenty-four months. Business owners can make money in a growing economy and they can make also money in an economy that is pulling back. Today we are talking to Jonathan Slain, founder of Recession.com – a company he started in 2008 when he lost his fitness-based business. He saw an opening and borrowed the money to launch his successful recession-proof consulting business. In his new book, Rock the Recession, Jonathan and his co-author highlight ways savvy entrepreneurs can bounce back from internal recession and make plans to be buyers when opportunity knocks. Episode Highlights: Jonathan's recommendations for owners of online businesses to start assessing themselves as recession ready. How to benchmark a small online business with smaller revenues. Importance of board of advisors and mentors and how to find them. The cost and time involved in choosing advisors and mentors. Other actionable advice for someone running an online business to prepare for economic downturn. The importance of having access to capital and credit now rather than waiting for the pull back. Why Jonathan wrote his book. Internal recessions and how to avoid or rectify them. How to research whether what you're selling will survive or thrive. Advice for the business hunter in pre-recession times. Some final tips in Jonathan's own words. Hint; plan now. Transcription: Mark: Joe there's a recession coming. Joe: Is it? I'm not sure I thought it was here 18 months ago or was coming 18 months ago and now it's going to be fall of 2020. What's the story? How do you know this? Mark: Well there's always a recession coming, right? Joe: Oh, yeah. Mark: I mean we know we just don't know when but if you look at; I would encourage people listening; when you're in your car don't pick up your phone but when you get back to your office or get back to in front of a computer do a search for a graph of recession gaps and you'll get to see from 1900 until present when the recessionary periods were and when the non-recessionary periods were. And we are in a period of time right now, one of the longest expansion periods in our economy and so it's not really soot saying or you know looking in a crystal ball to see that there's a recession coming. We know it's going to happen, we don't know how bad, we don't know when exactly but we do know it is. And I had an investment professor in college who would say all the time bears get rich, bulls get rich, pigs get slaughtered and I always thought well bears get rich too but you need to actually plan for; I screwed that up, it's bulls and bears and pigs but whatever you need to plan for this… Joe: I'm just trying to think through what you just said so thank you I thought I was not keeping up with you. Mark: Well you know what I failed that class so maybe that's why I don't know the right answer. But bulls get rich, bears get rich, pigs get slaughtered. And the point was you can make money in a growing economy, you can make money in a declining economy don't get greedy; that's the lesson but there is an in lesson in there, you can make money in a down economy but how many of those listening right now are just looking at their last year being like that was awesome without any idea of what they're going to do when; not if but when the economy pulls back or they haven't pull backed within their own company. And I know you talked to somebody who specializes in this; he owns recession.com for goodness sake. Joe: I know what a great URL, Recession.com, it's Jonathan Slain and he's been through this. He started his own company in 2008 and just had to fight through meeting payroll and all these different things and learned so much in terms of being ready for the next recession and preparing for the next recession. And he's expanded beyond the actual economic recessions that we're talking about and focuses a little bit in helping companies with internal recessions so that if they had a client that had a subscription or SaaS business but only had 10 major clients and they lost two or three within a month or two that's an internal recession. If you've got a hero SKU that you're selling and 70% of your revenue is from that hero SKU you are setting yourself up for an internal financial recession with your business if competition comes in and hurts that. So he has a readiness assessment test; a recession readiness assessment test on his website and it goes through and compares how you are prepared compared to others and helps people take advantage of upcoming recessions and avoid the major pitfalls in being one of those pigs that get slaughtered. Mark: Well let's get right to it because I think this is an important topic for anyone. Anyone out there that has an online business, don't get too fat on your current earnings. Understand that businesses go through cycles, economies go through cycles, let's all survive this next cycle and thrive in the next cycle and it sounds like that's what we're going to learn here. Joe: Hey folks Joe here from Quiet Light Brokerage and today I've got Jonathan Slain with us. Jonathan is the author of Rock the Recession and is an expert in preparing for an economic downturn either in a worldwide situation or a nationwide situation or possibly in your own business. Jonathan welcome to the podcast. Jonathan: Let's rock. Good to be here. Joe: Can you expand on that background a little bit? We don't do any fancy introductions here. Can you tell the audience who you are what you're all about and where you come from? Jonathan: Yeah, so I come to you today from my home in Cleveland, Ohio but I really started my career; I have to disclose that I'm a recovering investment banker. And so that's where I started. From there I went on to own my own business which was five gyms all located in Cleveland. I think you mentioned earlier that I borrowed some money from my mother in law in the Great Recession so we can talk about that. And since then now I am full time doing consulting for large companies looking to grow revenue in or profit and that is what brought me to writing the book. And then when we were talking before we started the show getting me on Fox News lately. So we can talk about any or all of that but that's my story. Joe: Well congratulations on stepping up to the Quiet Light Brokerage podcast from Fox, it's a big show you're on now. Jonathan: Understood. Joe: Are you nervous? Jonathan: A little bit. Joe: We've got some pretty impressive people in the audience believe it or not; they're both buyers and sellers of online businesses, entrepreneurs that are building businesses that they're solopreneurs in some case sometimes they have remote VAs working for them sometimes they have staff. But what would your recommendations be for those that are; first we'll talk about the owners of online businesses and how they prepare for a potential economic recession. Jonathan: Yes. So the first thing that I would do is to assess where you are. So as a business owner it's really to benchmark how you're doing compared to where everybody else is in the market. So if you don't know where you stand then you can't figure out what you should do first to start to get better and improve. When it comes to benchmarking that was where my business partner and the co-author of the book; that's where we started. And so we put up a free tool. It's on our website so if the audience wants to go to recession.com they can go there. It's 20 questions. It only takes about 5 to 10 minutes Joe and you'll get a score from 0 to 100. If you're a zero then it's likely that you're going to go bankrupt in the next recession, if you're a hundred then you're licking your chops; can't wait to pounce when we hit the next downturn. So that's where I'd start. Joe: How do you benchmark in an industry like the online business with a lot of smaller businesses doing less than 10 million in revenue when none of the information is public? Jonathan: Yeah. So what I can tell you is that from all of the responses we've received to the recession readiness assessment, the average score right now is a 37. So I think for people looking to benchmark themselves with other private companies 37 is where we're seeing the mark. If you're above that score that relative to we've got a thousand plus responses you're probably doing better than the average and below that can be nervous. So I think that's one piece but it brings up a good point and I think part of what I was listening to on some of your other episodes is that private businesses, small businesses need to have their own board of advisors. And so that's one of the questions actually on our assessment is do you have a board of advisors? And I'm not talking about your lawyer, I'm not talking about your accountant, I'm talking about people that have a proven track record of making money in business preferably in a similar business to what you're doing to your online business and that will just give you straight feedback. Again I know that some people bristle when I say don't have your accountant or lawyer on the team. My issue is that your paid professionals may not want to tell you what you need to hear all the time for fear of losing your business. Joe: And I think that's a great idea. I call them mentors or board advisers whatever it might be. The question is I saw something on the hustle the other day, we focus on or I watched that and I know Sam and that was a question that someone came up with so like look I'm trying to find a local mentor or board of advisors; how do you find them? A lot of people gave a lot of different responses but what would your advice be in terms of trying to find the right type of mentor or board of advisor and is there a cost associated with it? Jonathan: So I always have a list. I call it the list. I keep it with me at all times. It's the 10 people I'd love to have on my board of advisors; the people I'd love to have as a mentor or a coach. And the issue is that most of them are not going to work with me right now. These are all folks that are super busy; they're overcommitted, and so they're on my list because once a quarter I bug them. I send them an email, I text them, I give them a phone call, I just drip on them and I try to wear them down until they finally get to the point where they're like fine I'll coach you; I'll mentor you. And that's literally I think how I've gotten a lot of my mentors because the people that I'm chasing don't have discretionary time. And so I don't think it's as simple as we listen to the podcast and we decide I'm going to do this thing and you just all of a sudden have a board. It's going to be a process that takes some time. In terms of the cost associated with it, I do think it depends on who you're working with. But I would think an honorarium of 500 to $1,000 per board member per quarter is fair. And I'll tell you that they shouldn't need the money. If the reason they're doing this is turning a little bit extra money I don't think you have the right person on your board. I think that in most cases they should be donating whatever you are giving them to their favorite nonprofit. And I think they should want you to pay them the 500 just to keep you honest and actually listening to their counsel and to keep them honest so that they feel like they have some skin in the game that they need to do some research; they need to read your financials before they get to the meeting. Joe: And how much time a quarter do you take up with someone like that? Jonathan: Yes. So my thought would be a four-hour meeting once a quarter and that they should do anywhere between two and four hours of prep of reading whatever packet that you send to them before the meeting. Joe: Okay, not too bad. What actionable advice can you give people that are running online businesses now in addition to the board members what could someone do now thinking okay, if there is an economic recession I want to do everything I can to prepare over the next 6 to 12 months. What can they do now? Jonathan: Yes. So the second step in the whole process would be to tune yourself and your business up. And by tune up I mean you're going to be doing things like looking at your line of credit. So do you have the right line of credit to be able to grow in a recession? Joe: Why do they need a line of credit? Jonathan: So by that, I simply mean capital access to cash if we get into a downturn and you see an awesome opportunity to buy assets to buy inventory for cheap, to be able to afford talent that you couldn't get access to during the recession or maybe they find a bolt-on opportunity for their business to purchase another business then you're going to need access to capital in order to make all those things happen. Joe: And what forms of credit would you advise someone seek? Jonathan: Yes. So I think that the best would probably be a line of credit that isn't secured by personal assets. If you can't get that done then look at a home equity line of credit and if you can't get that done then look at credit cards. The thing is to have access to capital; you don't have to use it. But here's the deal like right now when the economy is good this is the best possible time to go to your bank and ask for credits. When we're in a recession, when we're in a downturn the banks are not going to loan you money. They're going to laugh at you if you come and you try to borrow from them. I mean one of my favorite sayings is that you can go to a bank; it's like asking for an umbrella except when it's raining. So banks operate in the same way. They want to extend credit now because all the banks are competing for your business. When we're in a recession, when we're in a downturn they're going to start to contract their portfolios. They're going to start to mitigate risk. They're not going to want to open up new lines of credit especially for online businesses; especially for newer online businesses that they see as riskier and not asset-backed. Joe: I'm going to back that up, folks. I sold my business as you all know in November of 2010. I bought a house in June of 2010. I paid mostly cash for it. I sold my business in November and then got busy got delayed and didn't apply for that home equity line of credit until sometime in May the following year. Well, guess what? I had filed my tax returns. I didn't have employment. I had a ridiculous amount of equity in my home and I got declined for a home equity line of credit because of timing. It was ridiculous. It was 2011 at that point as well. So the economy was just coming back and I had a ridiculous amount of credit but because I didn't have a quote-unquote job or income at the time I got turned out for hillock. And I had been given previous advice exactly like this and this is from my mentor; a business person, a business advisor, always have some sort of line of credit available to you. Jonathan is right. Make sure if you can it's not tied to personal assets but the reality in this solopreneur world that we live in for the most part that's really hard to do. If you can't get that non-secured get secured and get it backed up as a credit line with your investment advisors or on your home equity line of credit or any other way that you can. What about credit cards and revolving credit cards; do you advise people to mess around with that at all or is that something that they should avoid? Jonathan: Well I would as a last resort. Again for me, you don't have to use them. But I'm a business owner too; I'm an entrepreneur I always want to have a backup in case things don't go as planned and so part of this is that I want everyone to look forward to the next recession. I know that's weird but that was the idea behind why we wrote the book. I mean the traditional plan for a recession is fire people and cut overhead and just survive and that book's already been written many times over. The idea here was what if we studied people that leverage recessions and use them as a way to hack the system to escape the usual need to hustle and grind to be able to grow your business and then sell it for a dream outcome. And so I'm always thinking of how can we use credit in downtimes to be able to buy assets to buy businesses from other people that weren't smart enough to listen to our podcast; from everybody that didn't prepare. And at the same time if all the stuff we're talking about isn't working; Joe, if people are listening and they're like look my business isn't growing and I'm in a recession myself then you need access to that capital just to survive. I mean at the end of the day we all need to protect the beehive as entrepreneurs because if the business doesn't survive then none of the rest of this matters. Joe: And that's almost moving into the second type of recession and that's just an internal business recession when someone has key employees that leave or hero SKUs where competition comes in. How do you help people in that regard or what actionable steps can you recommend to them that they take to avoid a situation like that or rectify it if it happens? Jonathan: Perfect. I mean I know a lot of people don't always agree with my predictions. I do think that we're going to have some sort of a downturn in the US economy towards the end of 2020. I don't think it'll be a full-blown recession but I do think as we get closer to the election that consumers and businesses will hold up in terms of spending and that will slow our economy down. But if you're rolling your eyes right now, if you're saying I don't agree with this guy I don't think the next recession still 2021 or 2022 and you're about to tune us out then just wait one sec. The idea here is that you brought up non-economic recessions so if your biggest customer leaves that would usually put most businesses into a recession. It could apply to a hero SKU in our case. If you have a competitor come in and attack your hero SKU; same difference, you're in a recession. If your best one or two employees leave and they go start a competing business, you are in a recession. The other one that has recently come up is what about government and regulatory changes? I mean I know the audience understands that vaping is a huge new business and everybody wants to get into marijuana, get into vaping well in New England they recently passed a law putting a moratorium on vaping while they studied the after-effects of it after there were several deaths. All of a sudden all those online businesses that were selling vaping cartridges were vaporized. And that happened overnight. It happened very quickly. So I want everybody listening to have a plan for how they can leverage those opportunities. Joe: Well the tariffs I guess could be considered a recession for some businesses. I've got a client who's tariffs are 42.6% on top of his cost of goods sold; a pretty big impact. Jonathan: They sell online? Joe: No, they don't. Jonathan: Okay. Well so it's thinking through if you're in one of those businesses what can you do? So the question then becomes you want to start to think about how you can diversify. And I know that the more practical tips for this are that I like to use online research. There's a site called Ibis World and it's a paid site. Joe: Is that I-B-I-S? Jonathan: I-B-I-S. Ibis World. You would have to make an investment but they provide industry reports on where they believe the future of different industries are going. So if you're selling line online they've got a report for that. If you're selling widgets online they've got a report for that. And the idea there is that you want to think about industries that will do better in the downturn and industries that will do worse. So in the book, we write about some of our favorite; some of the ones that got pummeled in the last recession, in the Great Recession and the ones that did well. The ones that got pummeled think like jewelry stores not good in a recession. If you're selling high-end jewelry online or in a store; not good, same thing with things like travel and tourism, discretionary goods. That's why I was selling personal training services in the Great Recession; not good. We all know that insurance and finance got hit especially hard in the Great Recession. Not good. So the ones that did well would be things like consumer staples; so if you're selling consumer staples like toothpaste, people are still going to need to brush their teeth in a downturn. If you start to get more exotic with your thinking; think about like veterinary clinics and veterinary supplies, people still spend money and take care of their pets in a downturn. And people don't care; if their dog is sick they'll put it on a credit card, if their dog likes Eukanuba and that's one of the most expensive brands, people will not change their dog food brand if we're in a recession. So if you're an online seller of those high-end pet products; I actually like that market. I think it will continue moving forward. My point just to answer your question though is that if you slow down, if you do some of the deep work of thinking instead of just being busy then I think all the answers are actually out there for how I will position myself, how I would start to diversify if I am in that hero SKU situation. Joe: In other words I had a neighbor tell me once; I was asking him, he was a bit of a mentor as well, he said Joe, you know exactly what to do. You just need somebody else to tell you to reinforce it. Same thing here folks; you've heard Mark and I say it and almost every guest that's ever been on the podcast, focus on the business. It's not about driving top-line revenue only, focus on the nuts and bolts of the bottom line part of the business and that's going to bring value; improve transferability, the documentation, the growth trends, the data behind the business and that's going to bring you more value in the short run and in the long run if you eventually do sell your business. And that leads Jonathan to talking about the other half of the audience; the people that are buying online businesses, those people that tune in week after week as they're on the hunt for that next business that they want to buy and they listen to us. What advice can you give to someone if they're out there hunting for a business in terms of looking for that business with a potential forthcoming recession? Jonathan: Yeah. So I want to start with the story and that's that Paul Belair who I wrote the book with; right before the Great Recession started Paul bought a business. He invested a million dollars with his management team to purchase the business and they grew it during the Great Recession. It was an HVAC business, so a business that helped out with heating, ventilation, and air conditioning; not a sexy business. And they sold it 63 months later. They sold it for over 70 million. Joe: He bought it for a million and sold it for over 70. Jonathan: So the purchase price was higher than a million but they put in a million in cash. Joe: I got you. Jonathan: And then they had some debt to fund the rest of it. Joe: Fair enough. That still sounds like a hell of a return on investment. Jonathan: Yeah well it's 70X on your cash plus; I can't tell you the exact number. He's under an NDA but in any case, it's even over 70 million. So that's why Paul writes the book with me but in terms of being on podcasts, you would prefer to be off playing pick-up ball in Florida. Joe: So hopefully he's using Amazing Aces. We've got a client that bought that business and it's a great brand. Jonathan: Really? Joe: Yeah. Joe: Jonathan: I love it. Well, it's Amazing Aces? Joe: Absolutely. Jonathan: All right I'm making; you know what? I'm still Christmas shopping for him. Joe: There you go. Jonathan: So I tell you that story because part of the way that they did that huge one million to 70 million dollar exit is that they picked a business and then they moved it such that it would have a tailwind in a downturn. And so if you're a buyer right now it's thinking about what kinds of businesses would get an economic tailwind if we were in a downturn and then like my mom says you've got to put yourself in the middle of the street if you want to get run over. So Paul… Joe: Very bad parenting; I don't know what the deal is with your mom but I got to say that's not very good advice. Alright. Jonathan: Paul put himself in the middle of the street because what he did was when he bought that HVAC business they moved it from doing mostly construction; so by construction I just mean when you buy a new HVAC system and they install it on the roof of your building that's a construction project. Joe: Yeah. Jonathan: Those units cost 5 to 20,000; that's a big project, a big investment. They moved it to doing service. So how could they take the equipment that was existing for a business owner and repair it because in a downturn; in a recession, people would rather repair their equipment than replace it. And so Paul saw that trend coming with his management team and totally changed the business to really capitalize on that. And that's how they were able to grow it into this recurring revenue business which again is another big thing I'd be looking out for your buyers. Joe: Yeah. Jonathan: Yeah. How do we get into a business that has recurring revenue? How can we be selling the razor cartridges instead of that one-time transaction? Joe: So find a business in a niche that's not going to be impacted by a downturn whether it's a critical service business or something like the pet space where people will spend money on their pets no matter what and adding some sort of recurring revenue aspect to it. Beyond that any thoughts in terms of their own personal financials and how to prepare for it in terms of buying; is it the same thing lining up as much line of credit and purchasing power as possible? Jonathan: Yeah well actually my favorite tip there is on the personal guarantee side. So I know right now with the economy booming; I mean consumer confidence is at record highs, unemployment is at record lows, the economy is still booming so banks are still willing to do more than they will at any other point in our economic cycle. I love the idea of capping, reducing, or eliminating personal guarantees especially for your buyers. So what does that look like to go to the bank and ask them to do the deal but to do it without a personal guarantee or to put a cap on that personal guarantee? Right now I think bankers are willing to have that conversation. You don't have to give up a blanket personal guarantee on all of your stuff. So this isn't possible generally with an SBA loan so don't worry about writing to me about that because I get it. But if you can do a conventional loan product can you get it so that you can cap those personal guarantees or reduce them? And it may mean that you have to shop banks, maybe you have to go to four or five banks, maybe you have to talk to your local credit union to make that possible. I just think it's worth having that conversation so that if we get into a downturn; if your business does go sideways that you've mitigated some of the risks that you would otherwise have. And it's free to ask. Joe: And on that aspect folks we've had Shakil Prasla on the podcast and Shakil has bought half a dozen businesses and he's done it mostly with non-SBA money and building up credit with banks and probably is avoiding that personal guarantee as well. So Google Shakil Prasla and Quiet Light Podcast and you'll find that episode. In fact, I think if you Google Shakil he's got a new course on how to purchase an online business as well so check that out. Jonathan before we go any last-minute thoughts or advice for anybody listening in terms of rocking the recession that may be coming in like 2020 in your words? Jonathan: Yes. The main thing is to put together the recession plan in the cool rational light of day as opposed to the emotional heat of the night. I want the audience to be thinking about putting together a plan now and then putting it under glass and then if you do have a recession in your business or you see on Fox or CNN that they're announcing that the economy's in a recession you can go over the glass break the glass take out your plan and start to execute it. The issue most of the time is that we don't have a plan and so when we get into a recession whether it's personal or affecting the entire country you're huddled in the fetal position in the corner of your office like I was when the Great Recession hit. I didn't have a plan. I had people knocking on my office door asking me what was going to happen with the business. And I just spent months trying to figure out what the plan was while all my competitors were executing and taking the best opportunities off the shelf. Well if you're still graciously listening to us that's what I really want for you is to be one of the people that can actually be looking forward to the recession and that can just move into execution mode when the next recession is announced. Joe: That's great advice. Thank you, Jonathan. How do the audience find out about more about what you do online and helping them rocking the recession? How can they find you? Jonathan: Sure. Recession.com is the website and yes we really do own recession.com. All my contact information is on there. They can get me at Jonathan@Recession.com or all the infos are on the site if they want to go do that. Recession Readiness Assessment. They'll see all my contact info right at the site. Joe: Excellent. Thanks for your time today Jonathan. I appreciate it. Jonathan: Alright. Rock on. Links and Resources: Recession.com Free Assessment Tool Rock the Recession Ibis World

christmas business rock advice ohio cnn cleveland new england hint fox news internal saas recession mother in law hvac vas great recession sba nda future proof slain sku skus shakil quiet light brokerage mark well joe yeah eukanuba joe well joe so joe how joe there jonathan so jonathan yeah joe absolutely quiet light podcast

Five Successful Entrepreneurs Share Their Tips for Making a Profitable Exit

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 10, 2019 48:52

One of the privileges we have as the owners of QLB is that we have a panel of experienced entrepreneurs that act as advisers and also happen to be our brokers. On today's episode, we are hosting our first Podcast Panel, these in-house experts are here to answer key questions regarding buying and selling. Jason, Bryan, Amanda, and David have a combined 40 years of experience in brokering e-commerce businesses and are here to share some great insights into their first-hand transaction experience. The discussion today focuses on the sell side and how human behavior can influence a transaction, balancing being a good seller without being a pushover, and finally on valuation and managing expectations from the seller side. Episode Highlights: Can a seller increase their sales amount just by being a good seller? How to handle challenging sellers and tips for approaching the negotiations with them. Thoughts on where seller behavior fits into the entire valuation process. Some of the principals of a good seller and behaviors they should avoid. Where the line is between two being too private and being proactive as a seller. Ways certain SaaS elements can be revealed in due diligence without giving away too much before the handover. Specific contingencies that sellers can hold onto until the signing. The importance of the buyer/seller face to face meeting. Things sellers tend to put too much emphasis on during a transaction. Staying on for extra consult periods as a way to earn buyer trust and confidence. How to temper unreasonable valuations or unreasonable expectations for what market can bear on the part of the seller. Transcription: Joe: So Mark one of the privileges that you and I have as owners of Quiet Light Brokerage is that we have an unofficial board of directors and highly successful entrepreneurs that are our advisors slash brokers. And we joke often that most of them are more experienced and smarter and more successful than we are. And I think with the panel that you put together in this upcoming episode it's absolutely true. We've got Jason, Brad, Amanda, and David all sharing their experience as advisors, brokers about how to be a good seller and beyond that with the entire transaction. How did the overall panel go? Did everybody behave and give nuggets of wisdom throughout the whole podcast? Mark: Well, naturally I started this all first well it was a pretty interesting idea. I was talking to Amanda about going to a conference down in Austin where she lives and she was invited onto a panel and she said that she'd be really interested in doing stuff like that. So I thought well why don't we do a panel here at Quiet Light and bring forward some of the advisors that have been working on deals. I mean I think the combined number of years on that panel alone was something like 40 some odd years of experience combined. Joe: As buyers or entrepreneurs? Mark: I didn't even get into the; I have no idea how to calculate that. That'd be a much bigger number. My math abilities stop after about 40, 45. Joe: So everything is 40 years of experience for you. Mark: Well I become 42 so yeah everything is; that's going to be the limit. Every year I add one number to my math abilities. The panel was pretty fun. I didn't know how it was going to go. I didn't know if it was going to be too many people on the panel. I was hoping for some discussion between them and we did get into that. We got some great discussion between people who have been doing this for a really, really long time. I wanted to keep the topic pretty simple and just kind of dig into their actual experience in doing deals. I wanted to find out what are they seeing on the sell-side specifically and working with people; humans that can really influence a transaction by their behavior. How much are they seeing that actually come into influencing the price? Jason right out the gate is like look we can sometimes influence the price but the bigger worry here is having a primary effect. If you're a crappy seller you might make this an unsellable business. And that kind of launched off this conversation of what is it; how can you be a good seller? How do you balance this idea of being a good seller who is open and proactive? David talked about being proactive as a seller. How do you balance this proactivity and openness versus being a pushover? What elements should sellers also not necessarily open up on their business right away? And where should they stick their foot down and say we shouldn't be sharing this? A pretty interesting conversation on that front to see what other people's experience was in these different questions that came up. I didn't lay it out right away. Joe just to let you know I asked them to pick out a URI moving forward for the company and I won't tell you what the result was of that. Joe: So I have to listen to this to get the answer. What was the question again specifically and what wiseass comment did Jason make because I'm sure that's exactly where it came from? Mark: You're going to have to listen. Joe: Alright. What was the question though? Mark: The question was choose Joe or Mark. Joe: To do what? And you're like hosting the podcast so you could totally edit it out and tell them no, no, no, no, choose me so it's…for the audience, I want to know Mark has full editing control of the podcast so whatever negative things said about him were completely edited out. Mark: Well, that's actually not true. I don't touch it, in fact, there's a point in there and I'm hoping the editors… Joe: See he's fabricating he's making this up. It's totally true. Chris and Podcast Motor; they do what he tells them to do. Mark: They're the only people in my life that do what I tell them to do. Joe: You man have seven children, that's the way it is. Mark: Yeah, I guarantee nobody in my household does what I tell them to do. Joe: There is teenagers. Mark: There is a point in there; I hope the editors catch this where Amanda cuts out and I awkwardly interject so we'll see if the editors catch that part. If they don't just bear with it because she's actually giving some really good advice during that point in the podcast. Joe: So you and I always joke about or I always joke about the fifth pillar. You always correct me and tell me it doesn't exist. And for those that don't know the pillars, it's growth, risk, gross transferability, and documentation and I always say there's a fifth. It's an invisible fifth and it's the person behind the business. Who you are and how you behave and what you post on Facebook and what's your LinkedIn profile says and it's silly pictures and things of that nature. It has an impact on the overall value of your business. People are going to stroke a check for enough money that is going to make a difference in their life savings and the risk they're going to invest in their future. They need to like you number one, they need to trust you number one; both a number one. That is so so valuable so I love this topic. I absolutely have to listen to see how quickly they all said your name instead of mine. And then I'm going to have to have another panel on with the other four advisors and see what they say. Mark: Sounds great. Mark: Okay, welcome everybody. We're having our very first podcast panel or panel podcast. I don't know what we want to call this but basically, we have a bunch of people on this podcast here. We have Amanda, Jason, David, and Bryan all joined me for a conversation. We've never done this before so we're going to see how this actually works out. The format is going to be pretty simple, I'm just going to ask questions and pick out different people and see what sort of conversation comes from those questions. So, guys, I'm just going to start off with a very simple question. You've got to pick one personally Joe or me; me or Joe? No, don't answer that. I'm just joking. Don't answer that because I already know what the answer would be. You guys would want Joe. Alright so let's; I want to focus this panel on more seller questions because we obviously work with buyers. I know a lot of buyers listen to the podcast but we work with a lot of sellers as well. And so I want to focus a lot on that. What is it like to sell a business? What are some of your experiences? You guys have a ton of experience working with sellers, preparing their businesses for sale, helping them go through that really difficult emotional complex process of exiting their companies so I wanted to try and tap into your collective wisdom here, get some good information and insights into sellers and that process of actually selling a business. And I want to start out by looking at how much influence a seller can have on the value of their business just by how they act with their business. Let's start with you Jason because you are the longest-tenured member of QLB here so I'm going to start with you. I'm going to ask you just a pretty basic question here and that is do you think that you can increase the amount of money; can the seller increase the amount of money they get out of the exit of their business by being a quote-unquote good seller? Jason: Absolutely 100% but it may not be in the way that you're thinking about it. I don't know that your value goes from a million dollars to a million one because you're a good seller. I think it's more binary. I think it's either a million dollars or zero. Meaning if you're not a good seller I think it's likely to spook a buyer to the point where they simply don't want to complete a deal. So I think it's incumbent to be a good seller, to be ethical, to be honest, and very very important to be transparent. So like any little thing about the business that in the back of your mind you think gee I really don't want to talk about that, that's exactly the thing that the seller should talk about with the buyer. Get it out there. Mark: Yeah. Amanda, I know over the years you've also been with QLB for a really long time, we've worked with all sorts of different people. Some people are really easy and a joy to work with and while not dumping on any previous clients, some people are a little bit more challenging. And I want to take a step back and just say something real quick. When we talk about challenging clients, difficult people to work with, the one thing that's always important for us to keep in mind is I get why some people are somewhat challenging. They've built a business, they have a valuable asset, they want to make sure the deal goes through well. So they have a right to a certain extent to be a little bit more challenging. But what has been your experience, Amanda, when you've dealt with a client that might be a little bit more difficult to work with and maybe a little more abrasive in the negotiations? Have you seen that impact the deal that they're able to get? Amanda: Absolutely. I think it's important to actually take those clients and take them aside and say it's really important to look at the feedback that we're getting from buyers and to be reasonable with their expectations. Otherwise, we're not going to deliver for with the deal successfully because the buyer's feedback is super valuable. If you get a lot of feedback that's consistent and a seller is not willing to hear it, it makes it very difficult to take those items there that could be actionable, make them happen, and then get a deal done. I think that also working with abrasive sellers can rub buyers the wrong way because obviously after a deal is done they have to work with the buyers. The buyers work with the seller for extended period time for training and support and it certainly is concerning if a seller is not easy to work with and has a difficult time getting along with the buyer for that matter. So yes it definitely can impact the deal. Mark: Yeah. And I think Jason your point about it being somewhat binary I think is interesting. At the end of the day obviously, we're valuing the business not necessarily the business owner and so Bryan what are your thoughts on what Jason is saying as far as it being somewhat binary? Do you agree with that or do you think that the seller is just one other element of the entire business mix? Obviously, we're valuing the business on its own to a certain extent where does the buyer fit in; I'm sorry, where does the seller fit into that entire valuation process? Bryan: Yes. So I think Jason makes a really, really good point and I'd like to touch on his point about honesty first [inaudible 00:11:30.1]. I think that's probably the most important quality that a good seller can have. But in terms of sort of being a good seller, being more binary than affecting the valuation I think it can be like this and if the seller is really difficult to deal with then disconcerting there is something that's not happening. But I think that being a really good seller can actually also increase the ultimate value that the seller gets out of the transaction simply because being likable and getting along well with buyers is in my opinion likely to induce better offers, induce better conversations that lead to better offers, and thereby can lead to a better and more profitable deals for the seller itself. Mark: Yeah, I think the only issue that I would just if I'm going to comment on this here would be that the buyer is going to look at a business and look at the element of risk. There's always a perceived unknown of what am I actually getting into here. And if you have a seller who is shifty, if you have a seller who is maybe withholding information or is being just kind of; I think Jason to what you're saying, if they're being really abrasive or just mean or whatever yeah that becomes a very binary sort of situation where if I'm a buyer I don't want to get into that because who knows what's going to happen after the sale. Jason: I find in the real world though it's not necessarily that that a seller is abrasive it's more the word you used is good shifty. A buyer just gets the sense there's something that the seller is not telling me. Are they planning to start a competing business the day after they sell? Do they know that this industry is about to hit a brick wall? Are there issues with the supplier? It's that shifty element more than the abrasive element is what I find in the real world. Mark: I would agree with that. I mean the thing that I think people on the sell-side need to understand is that from a buyer's standpoint risk plays into a valuation perceived or real. It doesn't matter if the risk is real or if it's perceived it's still there. And so if you are giving off a sense of risk to a buyer that's going to play in the valuation that you get. So I guess we can put this out there as a plea to be a good seller; to behave correctly. But what does that actually mean to be a good seller? David I'm going to throw it over to you because I haven't got you in on this yet. And sorry, I didn't get to turn in you in the first question here but I want to ask you what are some ways that you've seen from sellers that make them good to work with and things that maybe sellers can do to maybe reduce that element of risk; that perceived risk that they might give out otherwise? David: Yeah, it's a great question. For me, it comes down to three core principles and the guys have touched upon perhaps the most important one right away which is honesty. And then after that, I think it's diligence and knowledge of your own business to the extent that they understand their own numbers in great depth. They understand the reasons, the trends, the way things happen, the problems that they've had; like fully understanding then business. When you have that and have someone with that level of knowledge come on the call with the buyers it's incredibly reassuring that they have this gross knowledge about their own business. And then to a company both that depth of honesty with expertise in their own business. And you know that's not taken for granted because sometimes many entrepreneurs are running multiple businesses and they haven't had the time to focus a lot on one specific thing. So when you have that knowledge it's really helpful. And then the third piece, of course, is productivity. I think that it's easy to come into a selling process perhaps when you are quite emotionally spent even being in the business for a while and to underestimate that a lot of clients will ask some questions and they will want to go back into past historic information and having like a positive mindset about putting that information and realizing that it's also the benefit of the ultimate end goal of the transaction which is to get the best deal terms. Going at that formula very proactive and positive perspective really just creates that like perfect cluster I think of the best seller like proactivity, positivity, honesty, and diligence. Mark: Yeah, that can be a really difficult line to draw because from a seller's standpoint you hear some of these questions and you think I don't want to share this. But at the same time, you don't want to appear shifty. I mean where do you guys think that line is for a seller when they're going through; especially like initially, right? We put up the listing out to the market. I think Brad who is not on this call recently put a listing on the market and had like 300 inquiries on it. We had to shut things down and that client is going through multiple calls one after another after another. And some of these buyers get on and they start asking some pretty pointed questions pretty quickly. What do you think the line is? Amanda I'm going to throw it to you, what do you think that line is where between being a shifty yet still open and honest and proactive as David says? Because I agree with you 100% David that being proactive makes a big difference. So where would you put that line, Amanda? Amanda: I think it has to do with creating expectations for when you're going to open up certain information and letting them know upfront what you're comfortable with. So there are certain things obviously that you want to keep pretty close to you like your suppliers or certain proprietary information that you just don't want to open up to everybody. And so possibly you say okay I'm going to give you all this information; my financials, this is how I do this, this, and this but creating a timeline of when they'll have access to that information based on certain steps being in place and finalizing the deal. And keeping some of that information towards the end I believe has worked really well for most sellers and buyers because if you have that trust level that you built between the two along the way and then you're just basically following the course of actions that have been set out ahead of time then I think that creates a nice flow. And obviously, that's what we want. We want sellers and buyers to both be comfortable through the entire process so that we can get to that finish line. And so I think it is obviously definitely a fine line. But also when a seller and a buyer are working together and they're meeting in person I think that makes a huge impact in what information is shared because you can just feel whether a person is trustworthy or not and what they're going to do with that information. It often comes across just in energy and so oftentimes the seller will let their guard down just when they get to know the buyer a little bit more. But upfront I think obviously you don't want to give 300 people everything you have for obvious reasons. Mark: Yeah and I think for… Amanda: It's about creating expectations. Mark: I would agree 100%. For the buyers that are listening to this, I think the insights that you can take away from this as well is understanding that. Amanda your suggestion is something that we use quite a bit here at Quiet Light during the due diligence process of ordering your requests and understanding some items are going to be more sensitive than others is a really good tip there. It does a great job of helping that seller get put at ease and from the sell-side is a great way for you to protect your more sensitive data by promising this saying I'm more than happy to share this with you but let's first go through these other items first just in case that torpedoes the deal. Bryan, I'm interested to know what your thoughts are where you think the most sensitive sort of data is that sellers might want to consider maybe safeguarding a little bit more than others. Obviously, different sellers are at different levels of comfort. Some don't want to share a single thing about their business and other people are like I don't care. You can't replicate what I did because I got the magic sauce. What sort of information do you think sellers is kind of the main stuff you would probably want to hang onto until the end? Bryan: Yeah, that's a great question. I think it depends a lot on like I said an individual seller. It also depends a lot on the type of the business and the business model, to begin with. So I think with that with an e-commerce business the most closely guarded secrets so to speak might be like Amanda mentioned the vendors with any any business that depends entirely or for the most part on a single or a couple of traffic sources the seller might hold the details of those traffic sources confidential such as for instance in indication of PPC traffic they might not feel comfortable disclosing their full keyword lists and that copies and so forth in the early stages. So it really depends on the business model. It also depends on the business itself and how defensible the business is. Like you said there are some business sellers who are happy to open up absolutely everything because they are fully sourcing that nobody can replicate the business no matter what they sold on but businesses are different and so does comfort level is different. Mark: David and Jason I'd be interested to know from you are there any elements that you have ever run across that have been off-limits in a due diligence process and if so how have you handled getting around that? For example vendor names, customer names, talking to employees; if you're able to share any details on that please do. And I didn't prep before this so if you're not we'll just move on to the next question. Jason: No, that's fine. Well, one thing if I may I just want to add onto what Bryan said. He mentioned about whether a business is replicable. One thing sellers hopefully are aware of, any buyer that's going to see the information has signed I think it's about a five-page non-disclosure agreement which specifically says they're not allowed to scan for ideas to steal. So if a buyer did that they would be blatantly violating their NDA. And a seller would potentially have legal recourse. So hopefully that will give sellers a little more comfort. In regards to what information is truly off-limits, the thing I found is by the time of closing it all has to come out. But some of it does come out essentially at the closing table. So one of the big areas of sensitivity I found is if a business has employees a lot of times the seller doesn't want to mention the sale to the employees literally till the last minute. The reasoning is it could really make them panic and look for other jobs if the deal doesn't go through. The buyer who might be inheriting these employees will have some obvious consternation. They're going to want to know who's about to work for them; are those people planning on sticking around? That can be a really sensitive area. And I've had situations where it feels like we're a lock on that or some other small issue and it always seems to get resolved at the closing table at the 11th hour when finally everyone feels confident that the deal is actually going to happen. David: Yeah and I think to add to Jason's point it's something that comes to mind a lot. Me over the years that's owing a lot of SaaS deals you can imagine the code base is just a really cool secret sauce component of SaaS business and the buyer very naturally wants to see that annotate to see what kind of code quality is annotations and see what kind of architecture is and that creates a lot of shrikes naturally in the owner right away. And it was an interesting bridge trying to think about how we could do that in a very safe way to get to that point that Jason is talking about which is the eventual reveal at closing. And what we did that's worked very effectively over the years and what we do at Quiet Light is show a snapshot of that code base and just provide enough insight and then a high-level like architectural look so that they can see how this sort of modules are put together. And then just a small snapshot so they can analyze the code based on a very discrete basis. Or also consider using a third party due diligence advisor to come in and review the code base and that way the owner is never really hands-on with it. It's being reviewed by a third-party specialist and there's a non-disclosure agreement in place and so you really can actually go into something that looks like quite a difficult issue and something to verify with a lot of credibility and integrity. So that's one of the ways that we've done most to do that with SaaS. Mark: Yeah I think one of the things I've learned over now 13 years of helping people through this is that during the due diligence process oftentimes a buyer comes in and says I need to understand X. And rather than saying in the due diligence process that I need to understand X they say okay I need to understand X and the way to do that is Y. And so what they say is let's do Y. And the seller says I can't do Y. And then the buyer says well what are you trying to hide, right? And so one of the tricks for you guys that I know you guys have done so well over the years is figuring out what is that X; what is the person actually trying to achieve through this request? What are they trying to learn through this request? And David to your point I'm glad you brought up [inaudible 00:25:11.7] because I was going to bring that up. That's one thing that I would consider to be kind of a non-negotiable. If I had a SaaS business and a buyer came in and said I need to get the codebase I would say no. I don't think that that's reasonable mainly because we can satisfy the same information that you're seeking in a way that does not involve handing over the entire code base through a third party due diligence requests or otherwise. I think there are other elements that could be non-negotiable such as if you have a business that has only five clients. And if the buyer wants to speak to those clients there might be a reasonable request there. But it can also be pretty dicing so how do you overcome that sort of friction in a due diligence process. Jason, it looks like you have something that you want to add onto that. Jason: Yeah I mean just touching on that. One thing we were talking about earlier was being a good seller and the corollary is being a good buyer. But one thing I've encountered on occasion is somebody will have experience with having done other deals in the past; either business acquisitions or dispositions or real estate or something. And a person might have an attitude of I've done a lot of deals; this is the way it's always done. And one message I would try to get out to people is just because you've done a deal in a certain way that's not the way it's always done. This panel has done literally hundreds of deals and probably in dozens and dozens of different ways. So I think Mark what you're saying is try to figure out the core of wants and then get creative about how to supply it is probably the most appropriate answer rather than being rigid and saying this is how it has to be. Amanda: I also think to David's point about bringing a third party to do due diligence and possibly a financial audit or an audit of some technology or code it brings a lot of value because it gives the buyer some time to focus on actually what they wanted to do at a business point or it takes the nuances of the financial load because it's so tedious when you're going through financial due diligence or looking at code. And to have somebody else do that who's professional and experienced with that while the buyer can focus on future opportunities and getting prepped and ready for your transitioning into the business then I think there's a ton of value in doing that. And oftentimes it helps the seller feel more comfortable sharing that information with a third party as well. Mark: I'd be curious to see what experience each of you has had with conditional purchase agreements. I've used them sparingly and just I'm going to take a step back, whenever we do the podcast I introduce something that is a little bit outside the normal. Oftentimes I hear from you guys they're saying why are you saying that now everyone is going to want a conditional purchase agreement. So I'm not necessarily encouraging this but I've used it on occasion when somebody really doesn't want to disclose vendor names or really doesn't want to disclose something else. So we say alright let's put together a conditional purchase agreement where basically this thing is binding conditioned on a very specific term. Have any of you others worked with those? Jason: I mean I think like I said I've had some deals where it really seems like it's either going to close or fall apart at the closing table and they've always closed. It's always whatever is that one condition has been revealed right at the very end. Mark: Yeah, and I think I'm going to wrap this up. Amanda, I think one point that you made that I kind of went right on over is meet in person. If I could give one bit of advice to anyone doing an acquisition on the buy-side or sell-side, get together and meet in person. It solves so many problems. If you can spend a couple of days with that person in the same room going over some of the due diligence materials I think it solves a ton of problems or it creates a massive problem that deals shouldn't happen anyways. And that's an outcome that might be okay if the deal is going to be bad anyway. And so a meeting in person is a great suggestion. It's something that I would definitely recommend. Alright, I'm going to ask and move on to another topic here. Bryan I'm going to move this over to you here and that is talking about what's important in the negotiation. When somebody is looking to sell their business oftentimes what we do is we think well I want to get money out of this. I want to get X out of it. I want to get as much as I can possibly get out of it and forget that there's a lot of elements that you have to negotiate. You have a non compete agreement, you have an employment or consulting agreement on top of that. And there's literally probably about a half dozen different things that get negotiated through the process of selling an online business. What are some areas that you've seen maybe a wrong emphasis from sellers in the past where they might put too much weight on one element of a transaction? Bryan: Yeah there is definitely a lot going on in terms of what makes an offer than just total price of the offer. There are things you mentioned and there are seller notes, equity rules, you mentioned an offer can be structured in so many ways. In terms of wrong emphasis, I think sellers are often a little bit perhaps too much against carrying a seller note especially if it's a small seller note. I've seen this sentiment changing over the recent years though and it used to be the case years ago that most sellers would basically only want to want to deal with good cash offers. It's now getting more and more common for sellers to be okay with a 5, 10, or 20% seller note. And the reason why I believe a seller should be more okay with carrying small notes is because that's what I often explain to sellers themselves is that oftentimes those offers that they get that are structured this way are actually going to have bought them more money at the end than a full cash offer route to the extent that they can even easy to consider the seller note to be sort of a bonus on top of what they get anyway. So they can keep pushing for an all-cash offer but it's likely that this all-cash offer would actually go to turn out to be lower than the cash part of the offer that might go to small notes. Mark: Yeah to that we have a podcast I think it probably would have aired a couple of weeks before this episode here with Shannon Stewart who's a tax advisor on the sell-side. And she has an example of a business that sold for 11 million dollars and that she was able to; the net proceeds increased by 43% largely through deferring some of the payments that came in. And when you're talking about an 11 million dollar deal a 43% increase in net proceeds is not a small amount of money. So I would agree, seller notes and knowing how to structure those the right way is is something. Jason what would you say; is there any element that you think sellers tend to overemphasize when they're negotiating? Jason: Yeah I mean I think like Bryan said headline price gets a lot of focus when in reality it's more about how much are you going to get overtime after-tax that you get to keep. And then I think another thing that gets way too much emphasis is multiple. I think a lot of people get hung up on multiple both buyers and sellers and it kind of boils down more to bragging rights than to a discernible business reasoning meaning ohI sold my business for 4X or whatever so I can tell my friends. The reality is okay let's say you pushed the multiple for your particular industry; let's say you're selling an e-commerce business and they normally sell around three times earnings and you managed to push it to four times like you're taking a lot more risk to get to four times you had to accept an earn-out and it's depending on performance and this and that and the other. Even if you collect it all you're earning what you would make in four years anyway. You wouldn't be selling the business if the sole reason was the money that you're getting paid. There are clearly other reasons otherwise you're better to keep the business. So the big advice I give to sellers is the market will determine the value of your business better than anyone on this panel, better than you the seller, better than any individual buyer. We have thousands and thousands of buyers and for most businesses, we get multiple offers. That's the market. If you're not willing to accept what the market will bear you're better to keep the business than to sell it or to try to push the market beyond what it will bear because it very likely could backfire. Mark: Well Jason you're begging me to go into a question that is also on the list. I'm not going to go there yet because I want to stay on this one here and then we're going to get over to that question to wrap things up here. David, I'll be interested in your thoughts on this as well here. Are there elements; I mean you've got a ton of experience in working with sellers just like everybody here, what are some things that you see people often negotiate maybe more heavily than they should and what advice would you give to them on that? David: Well I think certainly on the emphasis question I would say to sellers when they're reviewing any offer that 50% of the decision; only 50% of the decision should come down to purchase price and terms and the other 50% should be based on the execution certainty of the buyer that's actually presenting the offset. Because there's an ocean of difference between coming out with an LOI for your business and actually closing it. And I think it's part of the; well a huge component of hiring a broker and an advisor to help you take that bridge from there to there and I think it's for me sellers that have been really receptive to guidance and advice at that point whether they should take the focus off the headline price off the headline multiple that Jason is talking about and consider the wider context that is this still going to close because the buyer has experience, for example, they have a readily available source of funding their due diligence requests are miles and miles long they're not reliant on any kind of outside financing [inaudible 00:35:22.8] all of these things introduce risk into the deal and ultimately that's risk needs to be looked at properly in the context of the whole deal so I think that's really important. Negotiating terms, one thing that I always recommend for sellers to be open to is the prospect of keeping the window open for like the minority kind of consulting arrangements after the sale. Honestly, we had enough every business through a standard transition period and depending on the size and complexity that can vary. But I think one thing that's actually really good for sellers to think about is maybe staying on to do like an hour or two a month to just say six months longer with the sale and that goes a huge way with buyers knowing that they just have a slightly longer line which the owner has to ask a half an hour-long question in four months time. And to that point about getting the trust and getting the deal over the way, that's a huge point that I think sellers are sometimes like they're spent and they never really want to spend more time on the business. But just that tiny little time investment for just a few moments goes a huge way towards getting a deal on the way and a great value. Mark: Yeah I would agree to that 100%. I remember when I sold my business now a long time ago they asked me to stay on for six months afterwards and they paid me for it; so a regular monthly consulting fee and at first I was like man this is going to be a pain but what I found pretty quickly is it wasn't. It was really easy. It was very easy money that I was bringing in as a result of that. And it really helped with their transition as well. Alright, we're at 35 or about 30 minutes here on this so we're going to round it out with one last question and this is one that is pretty important to me because I think it's what we all do here. We all earn a living in some capacity through helping people exit their businesses and from our standpoint it can be really easy to treat people's businesses as inventory that we're simply moving. And obviously, we don't ever want to go there because we're all business owners ourselves. We've all been through that. We know what work it takes to build these and then how difficult it can be and how stressful it can be to sell them. So one of my pet peeves that have grown over the years is just hearing people say oh man is this seller I was approaching them I wanted to buy their business they weren't selling it but I was doing outreach and I asked them how much they'd sell it for and man his expectations were crazy. It's a pet peeve of mine so I'm kind of implanting here the answer that I want to hear. Amanda; we're going to go left and right on my screen, Amanda, you're first here. Do you think that there is such thing as an unreasonable valuation or is it only really unreasonable expectations of what the market can bear? Amanda: Well I think both actually I think unreasonable expectations for where the market can bear; I mean when we're seeing that right now. Certainly, we're seeing a lot of growth in multiples over the last two years and there's been a push to constantly drive that multiple. And I think we've done a really good job of doing that. But sellers, of course, have their own expectations on what they think that multiple should be because they hear things from other sellers or they possibly got an offer four years ago from a strategic and they decide to pass that. And that has dried up and gone away and is no longer a viable option. And so I think the market evolves really quickly. And I'm actually one of those people who may have unreasonable expectation professional with expertise and proper data to bring somewhere like that back to reality. And I think that that's; actually, the core of it is having realistic expectations with what the market is; the ability of the market at this time because obviously, that may change in six months for better or for worse. I think that whether the expectations are reasonable is less important than the seller being able to be open to the feedback and coming back down to reality. And I think that makes a lot of difference because we see that quite often where sellers will come in and they think their business is for X multiple but then they're open to hearing what we're experiencing, what we're seeing because we do a lot of volumes and then having those realistic expectations is super important. Mark: Yeah and I think one thing I've been trying to remind people as well especially in the sell-side when we get up into the high seven and eight-figure territory; you brought up Amanda that the seller might have gotten an offer from a strategic years ago but obviously never went through or they heard about so-and-so who got a 6X on their business what they never really hear when they hear these big prices is what was the composition of that offer. How much was there actually cash? How much was equity that can be the phantom value? Jason, I know you have a lot of stories about phantom values in equity, right? And so that's something that we don't hear about. It's like the sports contract of oh my gosh they got o120 dollars but it's only 10 million dollars guaranteed and like it's so much in incentives. Jason, what are your thoughts on this aspect of unreasonable expectations on the part of sellers? Jason: I think part of it depends on how you define unreasonable because I look at myself as an example. Most people say I've got very unreasonable expectations of the value of an hour of my time and I will concede absolutely positively. What I expect to earn is way more than what my job will provide and all that means is I need to adjust how I use my time in order to achieve it. So if you're a person who believes your business is worth a lot more than the market will bear, that's perfectly fine. I just think don't be a seller because the market won't provide it. It's important to understand the people on the other end of the transaction are buyers. They're seeking a certain rate of return. You're comparing your business not only to save alternatives like or I mean to a spectrum of alternatives and various safety like bonds, stocks, municipals, real estate. They're also comparing it to other businesses for sale that earn roughly the same amount. You might have roughly the same growth plans. And it can be really frustrating if anyone is banging their head saying no, no, no, no, my business is special and deserves more when the market simply won't bear it out. I think most of us on the panel have kind of learned that there's a range. There's a spectrum where a valuation could be within a certain range depending on certain factors. Sometimes it's worth it to test the market to put out something at a bit higher valuation just that so you see the seller understands that the odds are going to go down the harder you push. And then one other kind of important point I want to bring up, we talked about this on an internal email the other day. A lot of times a seller will call multiple brokerages; they'll call Quiet Light and then two or three of our competitors and that's perfectly fine. We want you to talk to whoever you want to talk to. But one common thing I'll hear is a seller will say to me how much is the business worth and I'll quote a price. I'll say I think it's worth about a million dollars for the sake of argument and they'll say well wait I just talked to Brokerage X and they quoted me a million two, can you get me a million two? My answer is I don't know and neither do they. It's not the broker that's buying your business. It's a buyer that we've not yet identified and all that all of us are doing is giving an opinion. And in some cases, it can be really detrimental to the seller to try to play brokers off each other because the broker's tendency might be well gee if these three other people told you it's worth more maybe I'm wrong and the price gets bid up in the sellers head. And then when you get to market the buyers; the people that are actually writing the check for the business are like what are you talking about you're way out of bounds? So it's really important to remember who's the decision-maker. In my mind the decision-maker is always the person that's writing the check for your business; sometimes that's the buyer, sometimes that's the banker who's funding the buyer, but you always have to cater to that ultimate decision-maker to figure out what's the true value. Mark: Absolutely. So in regards to the value of your time Jason I appreciate you putting it on a payment plan for this little podcast panel because it is pretty crazy. Alright, David, over to you I want to get your opinions on this. David: I think Jason said absolutely the best. I think the market ultimately informs everyone to pick up on what Amanda said it's all about receptivity to that. I mean you can continue on as a business owner with a maybe like a grand ass perspective of the value of your business for a long enough period of time and as Jason said potentially go with the broker that's gone for a particularly inflated valuation. The problem is as Jason and we all know here is that if you come out way too high you will flop in the market and it will be a long long period of time before you then eventually have to come off the exclusivity pulling down the listing and then return back to market at a later point in time often with another advisor and how many times do we see that at Quiet Light with people coming to us from a very correct or whatever having spent an awful lot of wasted time and to cut in to Jason's point all of our time is valuable and we love the perception of it. If you're a business owner with a great business that you want to exit your time is especially valuable. So that decision right out the gate in terms of your receptivity and so what the market will bear is arguably the most important decision when it comes to respecting your own time and getting a process done and completed and money in the bag. Mark: Yeah, I remember probably about a year ago I was recording a potential client and then he came back and said another broker quoted me and said that they could get me this much and it was substantially higher than what I was going to; what I was quoting him at. He said and he's going to reduce his commission to this. I looked at it and I called him and said yeah you should sign with them. How do you counteract that, right? You couldn't really counteract that too much other than say if you really think they can get that and are being less commissioned then you should sign with them. He ended up signing with me later and we ended up getting a really good deal for him. But I think you guys point about valuations being a predictive exercise is on point. Alright, Bryan, I saved the best for last. What are your thoughts as far as these unreasonable expectations or is it just unreasonable expectations for the market? Bryan: I think Chris and David both absolutely nailed it. And I'm glad that they took the conversation the way they did. I think the market is always going to be brutally honest and any valuation mistakes that are being made, any unreasonable expectations are going to be corrected by the market. But I think the one most important thing on this is it is going to be the market who will buy the business it's not going to be the broker. There's no point negotiating the valuation of your business with the broker because it's not in the broker's power to value your business it's the market that values your business ultimately. Mark: Absolutely I'm going around this out and close it up by saying one thing and that is Jason, you said this in what you brought up, if the value of your business in your head is 10 million dollars but the valuation of the market is 1 million dollars just don't become a seller. That's kind of the result. As far as Quiet Light Brokerage, look I know where the value of Quiet Light is. If somebody came up the street and offered me the value; the market value of Quiet Light I would say no. If they are offering me two times the market value of Quiet Light I would say no. If they offered me three times I would still say no because the value of my head for what this business is worth to me right now is way more than what the market value is. I'm not a seller; not going to be a seller for a long long time. And that's totally fine because I love this business. I love working with you guys. Thank you so much for coming on this podcast panel. Guys give us feedback on this. Let us know what you think. If there's something that you want us to do a panel on as far as topics let me know. If you want it to be specific in industries such as e-commerce or SaaS or content sites we can do that as well. We've got a wealth of experience here with the advisors and we're about to be able to tap into them more with these podcasts. So again, thanks everyone for joining this. Let's do it again hopefully sometime soon. Bryan: Thanks, everyone. Amanda: Thank you. David: Thanks, Mark.

staying meaning honestly exit guys saas profitable negotiating ppc successful entrepreneurs nda loi uri 4x 6x podcast panel ohi mark david quiet light brokerage quiet light mark you david yeah mark yeah joe you mark well podcast motor shannon stewart joe so joe there david thanks mark they amanda it mark okay mark absolutely

How SMS Marketing Can Increase Your Engagement 4X With Arri Bagah

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 3, 2019 37:49

We have sold over 120 businesses here at Quiet Light but this is the first time we've employed the term text list. Does texting make your business blow up? The young entrepreneur we are talking with today is at the forefront of mobile marketing with his company, Conversmart. When done right, mobile marketing gives customers using smartphones personalized information so that they can get what they need exactly when they need it. SMS subscriptions have begun to bypass email subscriptions with their elevated engagement and conversion rates. Arri Bagah was a computer science major who learned coding to make money as a side hustle in college. After college, he got into messenger marketing with Facebook messenger at an ad agency. He started Conversmart and began to explore looking outside traditional marketing channels for his clients. Arris has quickly become an expert in the mobile messaging space, helping his customers generate millions in additional revenue. Episode Highlights: The difference between message marketing and email marketing by numbers. The advantages of message marketing. How the tool allows for easy customer opt-in. Specific examples of the client conversion rates. Growth opportunities for potential buyers. Categories or spaces where message marketing works best. Ways to collect subscribers. Average return on ad spend. Messaging frequency of a successful text messaging campaign. Costs to get started in message marketing. The ins and outs of opt-in compliance. Advice for all types of eCommerce businesses looking to use message marketing. Transcription: Mark: Joe recently you asked me to make a change to our site; a pretty simple change. And that was to give some of our buyers, the people that want to know when we release a new listing and put it back up a little bit, anyone that's out there wanting to buy they want to know when we release a new listing and they want to know first, right? Everyone wants to be first in line for that. So you made a suggestion which we're going to implement here in the coming months which is to add text messaging; SMS alerts when we release a new listing. And I know this didn't just come from you sitting around and saying hey… Joe: Yes it did. I come up with all these great ideas in my head. I don't get any help from anybody else; just a clarification. Mark: You know I'm not sure I want to; okay fine, this was 100% your idea based on somebody that you talked to on the podcast. Joe: Alright, that's true. Mark: Alright who did you talk to and why are we talking about SMS texting? It sounds invasive to me. It sounds like something I wouldn't necessarily want but the data doesn't really agree with me at all as it often doesn't. Joe: Yeah, it doesn't agree with you at all or me. Talk to teenagers this is what they do. And actually, they don't even text now it's just a snap. But in Seattle… Mark: You have to get on the TikTok train, that's where it is now; Tiktok. Joe: Actually that's true. Mark: Yeah so there you go. Joe: I'm hearing about that as well. You have a teenage girl so you know. Should we be talking about our kids? No, they don't want to hear about our kids. Mark: So we talk about my kids will be on here forever. And like it's two minutes each that's like 15 minutes. Alright, SMS text messaging let's get back on that. Joe: I was at a Blue Ribbon Mastermind in Seattle with Brad and Chris and this young kid gets up on stage and he presents on SMS text messaging and how it impacts engagement with customers and he starts talking about 98% open rates and much, much higher conversion rates. And the average order value in all of this stuff and somebody we know, somebody we've sold a business to engaged with him afterwards and hired him afterwards and his business has blown up. I don't want to give his name because people want to talk to him and we keep referring people to him and he's just trying to make a living and people want to talk to him about how he's doing it. So I'm not going to give his name but his business has absolutely blown up. So I ended up connecting with Arri; Arri Bagah, he's a kid guys. Yeah, he's a kid to me. I got gray on my chin. He's like 24 or 25 years old but he's at the forefront of the next evolution of e-mail marketing which is SMS marketing. It's capturing mobile phone numbers, doing specific marketing directly to that mobile number, and it's amazing. When you're online shopping now; this is how he describes it now, if you're online shopping on your mobile phone and someone says subscribe and you click on it and it's the old school way to subscribe it's your email address and then you've got to go confirm in your inbox and then all these multiple steps. Now with SMS and if it's done right and you subscribe you can confirm it right there on your phone and then you get that coupon code right there on your phone and then you could place the order right there on your phone. It's like so quick; 15 seconds versus multiple steps in multiple places. So there is a little bit of that and a whole lot of you want to help your customers, you want to get good information in front of them. They want information to get to them in a way in which they live now which is on their mobile devices SMS is the way to go. You don't have to check your e-mail. It just pops up. There's a blue dot. I'm looking at my phone right now. There's a blue dot on my phone right now. I think it's probably from you Mark. Somebody texted me and if I want to make it go away I have to click it. I have to do that. Same with Messenger and Facebook; it shows up on my phone. I could get rid of it. So the engagement is much higher, conversion rate is much higher; gosh if I could just give a statistic here. He gave me something like a 25 time ROAS, return on ad spend. So if you spend a dollar you're getting $25 back. That's amazing. I think they guarantee a 15-time ROAS. It's incredible. That's all I have to say about it. Mark: That's amazing. I think the emphasis here because we; let's bring this back to what we talk about on this podcast all the time, we're talking about buying and selling internet-based businesses and for somebody buying we're looking at how can we grow what we're acquiring here. And look we know Facebook we know Google but let's face it Mark Zuckerberg has gotten greedy. It's really, really difficult to make Facebook pay well. And if you had a 25 ROAS on Facebook you'd be selling a course next because that's what people do. You're usually happy if you have that 3 ROAS on Facebook. Google is the same sort of thing. And I think it's important for us to look outside of what we think are the most profitable marketing channels. Look all the data does actually point the same direction. The most profitable marketing channels are the ones that you own; email and email we know is cluttered so SMS text makes a lot of sense if you have permission to be able to send SMS texting because no one else is doing it. So it's going to be a really great channel. I'm excited to listen to this because you asked me to add this as an option. I'd like to hear from buyers as well would you want to have text alerts when we release a new list and I think it's a great idea to do. Obviously, it would be opt-in only but it would be a great way to be right at the forefront of that. I'm excited to listen to this and also learn how to implement this as a system within Quiet Light Brokerage. It's fantastic. Joe: Yeah. You just said opt-in only; you can opt-in, you can opt-out. All of that is right there. So you just invited all of the buyers in the audience to reach out to you and let you know so why don't you give out your cell number so you can have them all text you and say yeah man implement this. Mark: Yeah. Joe: No, don't do that. Mark: Or just e-mail me, Mark@QuietLightBrokerage.com and then when I reply they'll have my cell phone number because it's right there at the signature. Joe: I want you all to harass Mark and stay on top of him on this one because I think it's going to be a game-changer for you the buyers to be notified on your phone that there's a new listing that's launching. Right now we're launching one in four hours. Wouldn't you love to be notified two hours in advance of the e-mail launch? It would be great. I think it's a great service that we can do for you and I think it's a great service that all the e-commerce SAS content owners can do out there for their audience as well. So let's stop talking and go to it. Here we go. Joe: Hey folks Joe Valley here from Quiet Light Brokerage and today we're going to talk about something I'm pretty clueless on which is text marketing, SMS marketing, we've got an expert in the area. I met him at Blue Ribbon Mastermind one Ezra Firestone's Mastermind groups. His name is Arri Bagah. Ari welcome to the Quiet Light Podcast. Arri: Thanks so much for having me, Joe. Joe: I'm so glad you're here and I'm going to call out where you are actually because Ramone Van Miller has been on the podcast as well. He's a good friend of Quiet Light. We're actually out filming in California now telling his story and you're sitting in his kitchen because you're working with him on one of his businesses, correct? Arri: Yeah. That's exactly why I'm here. Joe: So folks those that actually go to the YouTube page and get to see this, you'll get to see a Ramone's kitchen in the background; at least his guest house at the very least. Alright, Arri tell us about what the heck is text message marketing and tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got into it. Arri: So I went to Roosevelt University in downtown Chicago for computer science and before I started I met a friend who had like a really nice apartment in downtown Chicago and I just asked hey how did you get that apartment? And then he was like hey I code and build websites. I was like cool I want that apartment. That's how he got this and that's probably what I should do too; to code web sites for people and make money. So fast forward I learned how to code throughout like the first semester. And then it will be like do a lot of the homework just like to learn how to do it myself. And then I decided if I can learn how to code myself then I can just like keep doing it. And that's where like my entrepreneurship journey started. I built a couple of web sites and then got into Facebook marketing. So I decided to move to LA. I got a job at an agency and before that's when I got into Messenger marketing which is a way for brands to leverage Facebook Messenger to market. So at Facebook Messenger marketing, we're seeing really good results. And at this agency, I was running Messenger marketing for like 15 different e-commerce brands at once and it was pretty, pretty crazy. I learned a lot. I got a lot of experience doing it. And I decided to do it for myself. And that's when I left that agency and started Conversmart. And we've grown pretty much since and then got into text messaging this year. And I'm super excited about text messaging because it's a whole different way for brands to be able to reach their customers. It's more direct. And a lot of the brands that we work with have seen really great results. So that's kind of like how everything started. Joe: So we've had you know guys like Mike Jackness who we're friends with, I sold one of Mike's businesses for him. He's an expert in e-commerce space. He runs EcomCrew. He talks all around the world on e-mail marketing with Klaviyo. Talk to; for those that are new to the space and text message marketing, talk to us about the difference in terms of the open rates and conversion rates and how you're able to reach people and things of that nature. Arri: Yeah that's a great question. I think email marketing is great. It still works. Billions of dollars generated each year through email. But the problem with email is that everybody is doing it. Especially with this season; the Black Friday holiday season, people are sending like 3 to 5 emails per day so as you can see the open rates and performance just completely drops when everybody is sending that much volume in emails. So the difference is that with text there are not a lot of people doing it. And if people are; people are super-specific to like which text or which brands they subscribe to so there's not a lot of competition when you're able to reach that customer directly. And one of the things that we've seen is that if you look at the traffic split for your e-commerce store the majority of the traffic is probably mobile already. So if somebody is like on their cell phone browsing your web site and you want to get them on your list right now brands have pop-ups and really if you give somebody a coupon and they have to leave your web site and go to their email check that email, get that coupon and hopefully come back to site and you can see how many distractions there are in the e-mail inbox. Joe: True. Arri: So there is friction right there already. Whereas with text you get that customer, they're already browsing on your mobile, you get them to opt-in through text, you send them a text, they get the coupon, they click and they're right back to your site. So it's a more direct way to reach customers exactly where they are. And really what we found is that we're not asking people to stop doing email marketing, we just want people to supplement the email marketing with text. Because with text you get 99% open rates, 10 to 20% click-through rates and usually double or triple the conversion rate over convert to like email. I'm working with Ramone like you mentioned on his brands. Really like he was telling me hey like our texts always like performs four times better than our emails let's do more text. So he's sending more text messages now which is something that we help with. We can talk more about what type of content people like. So we come up with really good content that people like and we're able to send it directly to them. They come back to site. They make [inaudible 00:13:29.5] just so that's like I think the big difference between email whereas email has gotten really overused and then text is just like this new channel that allows people to reach their customers directly. Joe: Let's talk about some of the steps that someone would take if they were going to move into text message marketing. With emails there's opt-in and unsubscribe and things of that nature, what's the equivalent of that with text message marketing? Arri: Yeah, so you can't talk text marketing without compliance. So with text messaging, we have to get people to double opt-in. I think the reason why people have these misconceptions about text messaging is because they've probably subscribed to a list before and people are just like spamming them. Or they didn't even subscribe and then they got messages. So one of the things that we do today is that we make sure that people are double opting in and that's one of the reasons why we see these high open rates and click-through rates because people are actually expecting you to text them rather than somebody is going through like a form and then you get their phone number and by surprise they receive a text and they're like why is this brand or business texting me. So we make sure that people are consenting to receiving those texts and that's the reason why we see really good results with it because people are now expecting you to go. Joe: So it starts with the double opt-in just like e-mail and you're capturing then those customers where currently either on someone's website on a laptop, PC, Mac, or whatever it might be or on the mobile device where you've got that pop up asking them to enter their phone number I assume obviously to get a discount or a coupon or to get information in the future. I see pop-ups all day long when I'm on websites. That's what it would be on the mobile phone or mobile device when you're asking for a phone number is that right? Arri: Yes. So basically we mostly only do it on mobile and the experience is really great because we don't even have people typing in their phone number. All they do is they tap the pop up twice and it opens up they tap to pop up the first time it opens up their messaging app they send the message and they get opt-in and we get the phone number through that. That is all powered by our platform partner called Pop Script. So yeah you know… Joe: It sounds like a breeze. Arri: Yeah like when you ask someone to put in their e-mail for a discount a lot of people put in their fake emails and especially with phone number you can expect people to put in like 222 and then whatever to get that discount, right? Now we've bypassed that by getting them to like actually send a text. So that's another compliance step that makes sure that your brand is fully compliant. So they send a text, they get opted in, and that's when they get that welcome message and get opted into the automated flow, abandon cart, and all those different things. So that's kind of like how it's set up. Joe: Okay. So can you talk to us about specific examples where you've had a client that's just been doing e-mail marketing and they brought you on board and what the change was in terms of their open rate, their conversion rate, their total revenues, and things of that nature so people listening either as current owners of online businesses or potentially buyers of online businesses and looking at growth opportunities as a buyer as well. Can you help out with an example or two? Arri: Sure. Yeah, we have a lot of examples. So one of the things that I wanted to mention is that your e-mail list is an asset and your text list is also an asset. And those are people that you can reach out to get them to make a purchase even after the rising cost of Facebook ads and all these different things. These are people that you can reach out to because you own that customer list. So if you're buying a business and they have a text list it's a really great asset to own. Joe: I got to tell you I've sold 120 businesses in the last 7 years and I don't think I've ever asked the question do you have a text list nor has anyone ever said well Joe you're asking about the e-mail list what about my text list? So it's rare. I assume it's coming in the future and that's why I've got you on today. But is the text list usually the equivalent of any e-mail list; smaller, larger, how big are they? Arri: You can have like large text lists and they usually work way more than your email list just because of the difference in the performance like being able to reach someone directly. So a few examples I think I've been like working with Ramone like you mentioned like when we started working together they were doing a lot of emails. So everybody that we work with it's always hesitant. It's like you know what I've never signed up to receive texts from a business. I don't see why anybody else in the world would want to receive texts from a business. So this is one of the things that we get all the time. And one of the things that we say is that you're not your customer. Like your customer doesn't live the same way. There are people out there who are looking to get like deals sent directly to them so they can save money. And there are all kinds of people out there who are willing to receive texts and most customers are and we have data to prove it. So that's the first thing. And then when we started doing the text messaging, when we launched our promotions and stuff like that we saw that text was performing four times better than e-mail. So we started to like send more text messages. Joe: In revenue what we got four times more revenue than email? Arri: Yeah. Joe: Do the math on that. People if you're listening and you have an e-mail campaign gosh Mike Jackness that's; ColorIt was huge on the e-mail campaigns, text messaging four times the revenue. That's crazy. Crazy good and it's time that we sort of adopted text messaging. I know that it's hard to ignore when it comes through because if you want that blue or green or whatever color of dot you have on your phone when a text comes through if you want it to go away you have to open the text. Arri: Yeah. And the crazy part is that looking at the millennial group like over I think it was 80% or so opened that text within 90 seconds. I think it was something like that. And yeah people don't always open every text they receive. So that's one of the great things about this. So we send our texts even for this Halloween campaign and things that we just launched every single text that we sent we saw well above 10 or 15% or so click through rates and the conversion rate was at least like 6% or so. And with text like you mentioned people open it and then they want to take to action, right? It's very short. And one of the things that we do is that we add images and GIFs. We design all these custom-built before; our design team does all that stuff. And I think that's one of the biggest value propositions is that we do the creative for the text so that it's not like somebody is just receiving a text from you they're also receiving like engaging content. So we design these GIFs and we improve the conversion rate. So every time we send like a GIF and text compared to just sending text we see twice the conversion rate when we add the engaging GIF. So those are some of the designs that we do. Joe: So for all non-millennials out there the proper pronunciation is GIF, it's not JIF clearly. That's an ongoing joke in my house. Sorry, I'm sharing a joke, people. So it's a visual aspect to it, it's just not content, they can see the images which is proven to bring more emotions to the surface and obviously convert higher. Are there any sort of categories or spaces in terms of products; e-commerce where it works better than others or certain things that you've tried and it just wouldn't work. You know Quiet Light Brokerage we've got a list of; you and I talked about this, we've got people that want to be notified and get notified when we launch new listings. I would think that text message marketing would work brilliantly for them because they'd get instantly notified instead of having to check their email. In Ramone's space, in his category, it works obviously brilliantly. Are there any spaces where you find that; I'm sure there are people that are listening and going oh yeah but I run a such and such type of business, it wouldn't work for mine? Is there anything that; is there truth to that, any that you can think of, or some categories that work better than others? Arri: That's a great question. I think the reason why people ask that is that they probably think that their customer is different than like everybody else. And the answer to that is as a business all you're doing is providing a solution to a problem to a specific group of people. And if your product works and if you have happy customers those people would want to hear from you and that's the reason why I say text works for like any space. I don't think there's any sort of brand that we work with that we saw okay their customer is not responding to text. And the reason is like I said you're solving a problem for these people and these people want to hear from you. So every single time it doesn't matter what space you're in or what product you promoted. It has always worked for their target audience. Joe: Okay, so we've talked about how to capture more phone numbers on the mobile devices, how to reach them, what the conversion rate is, usually four times the amount of revenue in e-mail marketing, and the fact that it works for every category in your opinion. What about A-cost or return on ad spend or average cost per order, how does that compare to e-mail marketing or if you're familiar with the FDA space things of that nature, do you have a sense in terms of whether it cost less or more in terms of cost per order service text marketing? Arri: Yeah, that's a good question but I wanted to add on to the ways that we collect subscribers real quick. One of the things that we've been doing recently is actually like leveraging Facebook and Instagram ads; lead ads to get more phone numbers. So when we run these text campaigns we realize text is performing way better so why don't we supercharge our text list. So we started running Facebook ads to get people to opt into just text directly through Facebook and then they're able to get on your text list so you can put them through nurturing flows. This was one of the performance methods that we've been using. Going back to your question which I completely forgot. Joe: No, I love where you just went. I wrote my question down so I can look down and ask it again. But you're talking about what would be in e-mail flow that Mike Jackness has always talked about with Klaviyo. You're doing the same thing with text message marketing. Arri: Yeah. Joe: What did you call it; what was that flow you called it just now? In terms of like okay everybody, listening can remember but you and I can't; skip it. It's the flow of nurturing, right? Arri: Yeah. Joe: How you're going to nurture that customer along and help them, help them, help them, and then give them something that they could take action on. I was asking about average cost per order or return on ad spend; what are you seeing there? Arri: Yeah the average return that we see for the plan that we work with is a 25, or the minimum return is 25X and usually for brands that we work with… Joe: Cut it down, 25X? Arri: Yeah. Joe: So I spend $10 and I produce $250; is that right? Arri: Yeah. Joe: So I did that really good math. I spend a dollar and I get 25 back. That's easier math for you and me. Really 25 times? Arri: Yeah. Joe: I'm seeing on e-commerce businesses between when they're doing e-mail all sorts of PPC, Facebook, Google AdWords, whatever it might be but all of it combined with Google as well where the average cost as a percentage of total revenue is somewhere between 9 and 15%. You're talking an incredibly low number here. Arri: Yeah. Joe: It sounds too good to be true. I don't mean to talk over you but people I just want to like hammer home on it really 25 times? Arri: Actually I'm being super conservative here. Joe: Really? Arri: Yeah. So the reason why is that the way we do text messaging we're already like we're capturing for the most part people who are already interested in your brand. So people who are on your web site. So you have good website traffic. That's the reason why text works a lot because we're getting people who are interested and then we're able to reach them directly on their smartphones and then you create really custom automated flows and really great broadcast. So that's how we're able to get really high returns. Like I don't think we have like any brand that's getting lower than like a 50X, to be honest. But we like to say we guarantee a minimum of 15X return. But yeah we get really high returns. And I don't even want to go with the ones that are getting like 200X or whatever because that will scare people. Joe: There's going to be a limit to what they can spend if they're getting even a 50X or 15X I guess the limit would be the total number of phone numbers that you have and how often you send these messages, right? I mean with e-mail I know that with Klaviyo; Mike's campaign on ColorIt, he would send e-mails all the time. They were helpful educational e-mails and really in that regard and then there would be a promotion where they could get a discount or a sample pack or something like that. How often are you sending text messages on one of these nurturing campaigns or flows as you call them? Arri: Yeah so we break down the messaging by automated flows and one time messages which is basically broadcasting. So with the automated flows, we like to send; when somebody subscribes we can send them a message immediately with like whatever the offer was and then we can send reminders. We send like two reminders within 24 hours for them to take action. And then on top of that, we have the [inaudible[00:28:04.1] and if they do not take any action or purchase then we'd get them into the Welcome Series which we can send that every three or four days and we'd like to stop after like five messages. We always give people like the reply stop to unsubscribe because if somebody signs and just said then we rather have them unsubscribe and save us some text money. And there was always that option. And then if they get into abandoned carts we have two series abandoned cart recovery messages that we send out until they make the purchase and then we go in to post-purchase. So with post-purchase, you can do a lot of things with like product-specific flows. If somebody bought this product you can say hey; you can upsell them other sort of products are related. So we can get really nitty-gritty with that. And then we have the one-time messages. With broadcasting, we recommend sending at least twice a week. I've seen people who have like text lists and then never want to message them because I think they're scared that hey they're going to receive too many messages. I really talked to a brand yesterday and they're like yeah we sent only one text a month and I'm like yeah you guys need to be sending at least like 6 to 10 maybe 2 every week because you're just going to like double how much revenue you'll generate. Joe: Right. And if the customer doesn't want to hear from you they're going to opt out; as simple as that. Arri: Yeah. Joe: That was the approach Mike took with Klaviyo and ColorIt as well; send as many as you can, be as helpful as you can, and let them know if they don't want to get any messages they can opt-out. It sounds like your approach is the same with your clients. Arri: Yeah. And I think that content really matters too. It's not about just like blasting sales. I think people think that because we are having all these crazy resources that we're always doing sales but we rarely do sales. It's always like short and sweet content with like a GIF that kind of illustrate what we're trying to say that engages the customer more into taking action and in between, we add like sort of small discounts. So it's not always about sending like hey we're doing like a storewide 20% off or whatever. You can actually send like a content. Joe: Okay. Talk to me about the cost to get started with something like this. I mean with Conversmart your business; that's Conversmart, there's no T in there folks but we'll put it in the show notes as well. How does someone get started dollar-wise? What's a test look like in terms of giving it a shot and seeing if it works and how many times do they have to really test it? What do you recommend to new clients that are coming in? Arri: Yeah. So SMS at the very bottom of the funnel so I recommend having a good amount of traffic; at least 20 to 30,000 web site visitors in order for it to work if you just want to do bottom of the funnel but if you want to use the Facebook ads to start growing your list which is a really good strategy because with the Facebook ads you get people to opt in to your text list and those people who were opting in are also buying which is paying for the cost for you to acquire those leads. So you're basically getting free leads. Joe: That's something beautiful. Arri: And then we'll tell you about because that's probably we've been doing hey let's get more free leads. So that strategy works really well. So we get people to opt-in through the web site and then we also get people to send some automated messages. Those are some of the great ways to start. So first you got to get people to opt-in. You have to have the traffic. You get people to opt-in by having a pop-up or on your mobile device or you do the Facebook ads and once they opt-in then you have to send messages. I think Thank You messages is the most important part lke it goes back to e-mail, right? I've met some people and it's always the same situation; it's like hey I have this e-mail list but I'm not even e-mailing them. It's the same with texts. You have to text the people who have subscribed. And it's always great to text at least once a week so when are you doing your promotion so these people are not completely forgetting about your brand or who you are. So it's a great way to stay top of mind while generating revenue. Joe: But budget-wise though for people going should I try this, is something I can give it a go, do they have to have a thousand to 5,000 or 10,000 dollars set aside to test this with? What do you recommend? Arri: You can get started fairly easy. In fact with our partner Postscript which is the platform that we use; if you own a Shopify, it's the one that we work for Shopify but if you're on another platform we can definitely chat about that. But it's super simple to get started in fact I can give you guys like free 1,000 credit if you want to try out text messaging. You can give them the link or something like that. Joe: Yeah, great. We'll put that in the show notes. Arri: Yeah you get charged by how many messages you send if you want to do it yourself. There is no platform fee or anything like that. So once you get those credits you can start sending and see kind of like what the results look like. And like I said it's only going to cost you if you send the text messages and be able to tell if it's working or not. So it's very simple to start. Joe: Okay. So it's all about the number of texts that you send. First, you've got to capture as many phone numbers as possible and get them to opt-in. Like we've got a fairly large list after a decade of email addresses and phone numbers, we can't just use those phone numbers we've got to get them to opt-in first, correct? We're going to follow the law. Actually, they opt-in to receive information from us anyway via email would that apply for their phone numbers as well? Arri: No they have to have opted in for the text. Joe: I got it. Arri: So if it said like only for them we're going to finish up 5 today check here to opt-in for the e-mails it has to also say text otherwise they're not opting in for the texts. Joe: That's good to know. Okay, any last thoughts for people with e-commerce businesses in terms of text or actually I'm saying e-commerce but I would imagine this would work for SaaS and content businesses as well, right? Arri: Yes. In fact like even with like a B2B company. I got a text. I signed him up for like a demo and he's texting me and we actually had a conversation. So this is a great way to like follow up with people if you're like not even in the e-commerce space. You can text them… Joe: It worked for you and worked for Quiet Light too so I don't know why I'm thinking only e-com. Arri: Last words; if you're an e-commerce business I definitely recommend looking at text because it's going to be the number one way people are going to be communicating. As emails are being sent even more I think there's going to be like over 319 billion e-mails sent in the next year or whatever so text is a great channel for you to reach those customers and you don't have to go all in. You can do like small tests and kind of see what the results look like. So yeah I highly recommend checking it out and doing some small tests to kind of see what the results look like for you. Joe: Okay and it looks like they can reach out to you and get a free consultation as well. How do they find you? What's the URL that they'd reach you at or things of that nature? Arri: Yeah. So Conversmart.com, that's where you'll be able to find us, you'll kind of see like kind of an overview of what we do with text messaging. We take a really different approach to text messaging that people haven't seen before especially with the content that we send and the creative that goes along with that content. That's really what helps brands double that conversion rate when they send all these text messages. And also as an agency, we take over the entire channel for you. So basically you can sign up and basically, you just see like money come in from text messaging after a couple of weeks and then we just give you all the reporting. You don't have to do anything besides approving the content and everything. So we'll basically like take over the entire channel for you. And that's pretty much like what we do for every brand that we work with. We don't want them to like worry about getting 11% open rates and 1% click-through rate over email. We can supplement that by sending people text messages that they actually like. And people are going to convert from those text messages. Joe: Excellent. Well, I know that what you're doing is working because you're hanging out with the likes of Ramone and that is rad. So you're doing something right. There's no question about it. Anybody out there that's interested in reaching out to Arri just go to Conversmart.com. Arri I will see you at the next Blue Ribbon Mastermind event and when Ramone gets back from filming today which he's doing for Quiet Light thank you, Ramone, give him a high five. Tell him I said hello. Arri: Yeah. Joe: Thanks for your time. I appreciate it. Arri: Alright. Thanks for having me. Links and Resources: Conversmart Free 1000 Postscript credits

Incredible Exits: The Beard King (Part One) With Nicholas Galakovic

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 3, 2019 39:27

Today's guest set out to create a product to solve a problem in his bathroom sink, wound up with two utility patents, numerous copyrights and trademarks and went through lots of ups and downs along the way. This week we are having him on the podcast to recount the seller side of a two-part seller/buyer series on the build and sell process. It's always inspiring to hear stories of entrepreneurs who built something based on a need they uncovered. Nicholas Galekovic, the co-founder of Beard King had always been creative, going way back to the dawn of design in technology. He was active in the early days of the digital space, doing one-offs for brands and starting a small digital marketing agency. He had gotten used to seeing brands succeed and fail when he realized that it might be time to start building his own brand equity. Episode Highlights: Nicholas walks us through the process of jumping off the couch and creating the product. How the timing was a factor in the success of Beard King. The patent processes and how they played into the growth and eventual sale of Beard King. What Nicholas did that was outside of the box to make his product and brand different. How long it took him to pivot from US-based to overseas production. Why learning every day is part of the success equation. Nicholas's Shark Tank experience. Amazon's patent neutralization program and how it helps protect product builders. Nicholas shares his two must-dos for preparing the business for the exit. What his next adventure is and what he can now do with all that invaluable learning. Transcription: Mark: For those of you that are listening in your cars and not taking a look at the video that we have up on YouTube of this podcast. You can't see that Joe is actually supporting just the faintest hint of a beard. So Joe is this intentional or is it just the stress of Quiet Light getting to you. Joe: Oh my dear this is embarrassing compared to the guest on the podcast this week. His name is Nicholas Galekovic, there you go. I wasn't going to try saying that name. I know you aren't. But let's just call him the Beard King because that's his company's name or former company name. He developed a product to solve a problem, wound up with two utility patents, a couple of design patents, lots of copyrights, trademarks, and went through lots and lots of ups and downs as we talked about the podcast. He's essentially run up with his doctorate in product development, branding, marketing, things of that nature before he exited a couple of months ago. So this week we're going to have Nicholas on the podcast. He is the person who sold his business. So people get to hear about the process and what it takes. And then the following week we're going to have Raj the person who bought his business. So we're going to do a two-part series on who sold their business and who bought that business so people are going to see it on back to back. Mark: That's fantastic I love this series when we can do the buyer and the seller. Even if we can get just one of the parties on it's always super useful. I know I talked to somebody recently about the podcast and they told me that these are some of their favorite episodes. So we are going to try and get some more sellers on. I know I have a seller coming on here soon in the coming weeks of somebody who is going to tell their story as well. I'm excited about this because I love these products that come out of this practicality of I've experienced this, I had a problem, I solved it, I turned it into a business and not only just a little business but something pretty significant. Joe: Yeah, he's been on the Shark Tank, got an offer, got a deal, ended up turning it down rightfully so; intelligently so. He talks about utility patents, the Amazon program, and grants to patents, and talks about some of the great things he did right in terms of social media and video. He actually had Snoop Dogg who was tweeting about his product and brand which is pretty cool. And then he talks about some of the mistakes he made. You know things that if he looks back he does want to live, gone, I wish, I should have, I could have, I would have. But he points out directly what he thinks he did wrong and what he could do differently and just dropping some advice for folks that are following in his footsteps. Mark: That's fantastic. Let's go and listen to him. Joe: Hey, folks Joe Valley here from Quiet Light Brokerage and today I've got somebody that just sold their business. Well, I shouldn't say just because it was in late spring of this year which is 2019. It's August 29th, 2019, my wife and I's 21st wedding anniversary. Thank you very much. Nicholas: Congrats. Joe: Thank you, Nick or Nicholas. Folks we have Nicholas Galekovic on the line and I had to ask him how to pronounce his name. I've known him for almost a year now and I've always screwed it up so I wanted to get it right. Nicholas, how are you? Nicholas: Good, Joe. How are you doing man? Thank you so much and don't worry my whole life I've heard the mispronunciation of my last name. So I'm quite used to that. I bring that into the branding side but I'm definitely excited to be here. Thanks for having me today so I can share my experience with you guys. Joe: We were going tell it you folks he's down in Florida and there's a hurricane coming in and pardon the lightning and whatnot but instead, he had a light just fall but we're not going to cut that out because you still are great. You sound great and it's life in the podcast where we're not professional; well I guess we, I don't know. Nicholas: Yeah we are. Joe: I don't know if we're professional podcasters. Anyway, I was going to say that is one fine looking beard. You should be in the beard business. Nicholas: Absolutely and I think by accident, by default I became in that business. Joe: You did, didn't you? So why don't we tell the folks because you and I have that little inside joke there; why don't we tell them who you are and your background? I'm going to let you do it. Tell them a little bit of background about yourself. Nicholas: Sure, absolutely. So you know I've always been in kind of the creative field and I really started to hone in on my expertise about eight years ago and I was doing more graphic design for other clients and really started to hone in what technology I like to use. So obviously Photoshop being the main one, Adobe Illustrator, I really got used to the Adobe Creative Suite. So I would just charge clients to do a flyer or one-off. I mean back then the digital space wasn't as big. I mean it has always been big but this is back in like the MySpace thing. So I even started off designing MySpace pages before I created havoc. Joe: You're aging yourself right now. Nicholas: I mean you know but I'm going way back. So then I'll just fast forward a little bit here and I started to hone in on my skill set of design. So then from there at a company called Kovick and Kovick was what I call a brand tailor. We really focus on helping companies with their brand identity, their strategy, website design, logo design, you name it. So I had a small marketing agency where I really started to I would say have success in business in that regard. But I always had a designer mentality we'll call it which later on down the story you'll see how that soon fulfilled me. And then I started to see a lot of these companies fail as far as whether they're small big or whatever and I would put my heart and soul into these companies I was designing. But then I realized I'm building all this brand equity but for other people in a sense. I'm still an entrepreneur but I'm doing it for the sake of their brands; which is fine. So then Beard King came about when I was just simply solving a problem that I had on the day to day basis which was trimming my facial hair. You mentioned the glorious beard hair. So it wasn't always this long and glorious but usually when it's a beard like let's say you're a size or small-sized beard you make some mess all over this thing. Basically, I just came out with this product called a beard bib and we'll dive may be more into the story in detail here but that's kind of how Beard King came about for four and a half years ago. And then I met you Joe last here. And then here we are right now. Joe: You and I and I think Brad. Right? Nicholas: Yes. Joe: We had lunch or breakfast may be down in Miami before the Blue Ribbon Mastermind; shout out to the Blue Ribbon Mastermind members. Nicholas: Shout out to Ezra; yes. Joe: A heck of a group of entrepreneurs there for sure. Nicholas: Absolutely. Joe: So we've been through the process of doing the valuation of getting your business ready for sale of getting it under contract and going through and selling it. We're actually later in the month going to have Raj on the podcast as well. Raj is the gentleman that bought the Beard King. So we're going to go full circle with the buyer and seller and hear Raj's story about how it's been going since he purchased it. And you and Raj have got along great. You're good friends now. You might be doing some business together in the future outside of the Beard King which is always great to hear. Well let's talk about the process because you have something or had something; Raj has it now that was relatively unique. Nicholas: Yeah. Joe: 100 plus businesses in the last seven years and less than a handful have had a utility patent on them. Let's hear a bit of that story you were making a mess in the bathroom sink and created something called the beard bib. How did you develop the product? Did you create one? A prototype from an apron at home or what did you do? What was the first epiphany [inaudible 00:08:25.0] and where do you go from there? Nicholas: Of course, so I mean I used to use a T-shirt. So you could picture you're at home, you're about to trim, it's either A. use the sink. Let that be the catcher. Get the hair all over. Try to clean it up. We all know that's super tedious. And being in 20 19 and then when I invented it that's four or five years ago so still though we're in this age where there's always a solution, right? There's always a product that's been invented. Everything's been invented and now you're just creating a better mousetrap. But in this case, I usually just use my T-shirt but then I wouldn't get like the little hairs all inside the T-shirt. And I'm like there has to be something like; I don't even know if Amazon was huge back then as far as how big it is now. But I think I just did some basic Google searching, Amazon searching, and I didn't really find anything. So I'm like you know what I'm just going to draw something together for myself. And I remember being home one night, I had a few glasses of wine, just chilling and I'm like you know what let me get up and start grabbing whatever household materials I could find. So I grabbed; it wasn't necessarily like an apron but it was almost like one of those hair cutting capes. I didn't know how to sew so I just; what's a man going to do? We're going to use staples. So I was literally finding whatever I can. And it was hideous but it actually kind of worked. So if you can imagine a product like a bib attaches around your neck and suction cups to the mirror as simple as that. Some of the simplest solutions are ingenious. And in fact, as the story goes along a lot of our customers are like I wish I would have thought of that like one of those things. And actually part of the story is funny because I remember thinking to myself well there's nothing out there I'm just going to use this for myself. I know how to brand a business but I don't know how to operate and scale a business. So I kind of let it sit for almost six months. And I remember coming across the Norelco or Panasonic clippers that tried to solve the same issue but with like a vacuum seal. What I found was; what my goal was the death of this idea. Let me just go and buy this product. And I actually tested it out but it didn't really work. It may be caught 20% of the hairs. But not only that sometimes people try to solve simple problems with these extravagant solutions which is unnecessary. So after that, I'm like you know what let me try this again. So I actually ended up manufacturing. I live in Miami so there are tons of manufacturers around here but of course with that comes greater costs. So I just tried a few. And long and behold I'm realizing in my mind, okay I have a company or I have a product called a beard bib but that's very limiting and so the branding mind starts to kick in. So I started thinking bigger scale. And I tripped up on during my naming process. Since I have all these processes and I saw ease of how to create brands it was easy for me to kind of just bootstrap that portion of it which sometimes a lot of people pay a lot of money for that. And I came up with Beard King thinking bigger picture; beard oils, brushes, washes, all these things. So I kind of accidentally got into the beard market. I did just wake up one day and said I'm going to get into the beard niche. And it just so happens that it also started to trend big time many years ago. But the trend was going up and I think that was from some other companies kind of breaking through. And yeah that's kind of the initial process of how I came up with the invention, prototyped it, tested it before even scaling it. Joe: You got off the couch and you actually did it. People have great ideas all the time but don't act on it don't know what to do with it. I'm going to just put this out there and then maybe we'll edit it out but seriously this is like an alcohol-infused invention. You sit and grab whatever you could in the house and started stapling things together and as you said it was hideous but it worked. And after several prototypes and a lot of money you wound up with was it; remind me, was it two utility patents and two design patents? Nicholas: Yes. So we can talk about the intellectual property side of things and again mind you as an entrepreneur you have to be willing to learn. So I didn't know anything about intellectual property maybe besides a little bit of trademarking but the pat world is completely different. So, of course, I did the initial patent process. The name of not a utility, not design but what's the one right before that? Joe: I don't know if there is one before that I thought it was designing utility. Somebody is going to have to call us and help us out. Nicholas: Right. Well, basically it just gets your spot in line for a year. So it allows you… Joe: Provisional patent. Nicholas: There you go. Thank you, Joe. You see your lawyer; I know, but essentially the provisional patent is your spot in line so you can kind of tweak and work on it but you can't go so far outside the scope. I mean it was five years ago that I did it so I forgot the name of it. And they're also not strong; they're really just your place in line. But if you have something that you really know you'd go straight for the utility patent. And what I found was I mean it took almost three years to finally get the patents that were issued. So you have to remember during this process; yes it's great for exit, it was amazing and we'll talk about that of how it all kind of played into the whole Amazon patent neutralization program. But going back in time the product went viral. And of course there's going to be knock offs and whether you have a provisional patent, a patent pending in this cut-throat industry, in this fast-paced e-commerce business, people don't care. They're going to still sell it. So this is kind of gets into the pat IP side of where when you do have a viral product that never existed before we basically created a new market; this beard bib market that never existed before. So it was flattering on one hand but obviously very aggravating on the other. We're losing money left and right with the knockoffs. Joe: Yeah. And that was for a period of time that was just too darn long. Looking back do you think that you could have done anything differently with the provisional patent and patent pending? There's just simply no real protection there. Nicholas: Yeah I mean the only thing I could say that you could do different which I never really like to say I'd like to do all that over again it's more like what did I learn from this. Joe: Yeah exactly. Nicholas: Would be perhaps accelerating the patent process. I think we chose the route because of cost. Usually, that's always when you have a company you don't have the cash to infuse into intellectual property. So I think we did the slower one, not the accelerated patent. Also as you're waiting for the provisional patent it gives you kind of time to pick and choose what elements that you want to claim or drop. Also, it's extremely hard to get a patent because some of these patent examiners they're tough. I mean it's not like they know you personally but it's like every little thing and then prior arts. So that's where you get into the field of you might think you invented something new but when they start stacking you against prior art; for example bibs in general, that was one of the prior art cited against our patent. It's just so difficult. So we have to kind of adjust to what parts of the application we want to claim. Joe: I was curious about that because anybody that I know that's filed a patent has said that they're going to say no and then you've got to pivot and go back at them with this other unique feature to your patent. How many times did you have to go back to that examiner until they eventually said granted; you're right, here's your patent? Nicholas: I mean looking through the docket history; by the way I mean first of all get a great lawyer. I'm not a lawyer so if you try to do things yourself you don't really know the ins and outs but I believe we went through at least three rounds per se and we still by the time we were getting ready to sell the business we'll have to talk about that with Raj when you interview him but there was a design patent still pending. So it took about like I said three or four iterations for the first utility and then just the next utility fell right after that a month later. So I think we got the first one in September and the next one in November and then you know. Joe: It was falling quickly. You were getting them quickly as you were preparing the business to sell. Nicholas: Correct. Joe: But from beginning to end from the time you decided to file for the patent until you got that last one in November of 2018 how many months or years was that process for you? Nicholas: It was almost about like I said three and a half years because again provisional patent was in the first year but that kind of only hold your spot in place. And then when you file for utility that time clock starts all over again. So that was one of the takeaways I was saying that I might have changed is just either going straight to utility and or accelerating. That's how you can probably get it faster. But in hindsight also being able to enforce your patent you're going to need cash to also enforce. It's one thing to have a patent. That's great. That's amazing. You know I actually literally; you could see on the back my wall right here that's a little patent but it doesn't mean anything if it was sitting on a wall. You've got to have cash to enforce. So that was the second part of this strategy was being able to have cash to take down these people. And we can probably segway into the topic of Amazon's pattern neutralization program. Joe: Yeah, I do want to talk about that. You know what I'd like to hear first because though? [inaudible 00:17:44.5] your story and the success that you found at the very end and actually helped Raj your buyer and propelled the business. I mean it was taking off by the time he bought it which is just great timing for him. But you had some great successes along the way with the Beard King and the bib. Can you just highlight a couple of those points? What did you do that was a bit outside the box that your standard e-commerce entrepreneur or Amazon FBA entrepreneur may not have done? Nicholas: Yeah. I think the first thing would be the branding and the marketing. You know with the named Beard King I started to brainstorm on okay how can we treat our customers different? I think even when we first met I would say King Joe or Lord Joe or Queen Sarah or whatever. Joe: [inaudible 00:18:31.7] is what your email add. Nicholas: At a royal day was the signature. So I really thought to every touchpoint, every detail; whether it's a phone call, email, flyer, or whatever it might be; packaging, everything was based around royal theme. And that's important to stand out nowadays especially with Amazon businesses just kind of being one out products and you kind of forget about the brand you just want function but to have that little extra piece; the second piece of that would be the video content. So I did a lot of the storyboarding, scripting, and writing of these pieces. I think the first one we hired one of my buddies to shoot it. And that first video ended up being picked up by a huge Facebook account like 9Gag or Unilab. And then once those big Facebook accounts picked it up it just goes viral. So I think within the first six to eight months of business that first video we did went viral. If anything I was a little self-conscious about it because people were making fun of it. But good or bad PR doesn't matter; it's great. Joe: I think if I recall in the package we put together we shared some of those links and am I remembering it right that Snoop Dogg tweeted out; as it Snoop Dogg or somebody else? Nicholas: Oh yeah. I think the meme was; so that was the meme portion of it but I think it went along the lines like you know a pissed off woman invented this. Joe: Yes, that's what it is. Nicholas: And so basically Snoop Dogg, Usher, even besides those accounts the big accounts; Facebook was huge on video and you can go viral a lot easier than you can today. I mean I think we're in the 40, 50 million views collectively across social media platforms which of course infused fire into the sales and this was right before picture going Shark Tank. So I imagine we had okay sales and then one month I think we had $80,000 in sales. I'm like how am I going to fulfill these orders? Joe: Yeah. Nicholas: That's a good problem to have but… Joe: So moving along with a story there and you just mentioned Shark Tank but we'll get to that in a minute as well. You were manufacturing in the United States which was more expensive. How long did it take you to pivot and move your manufacturing overseas? Nicholas: I think… Joe: I think you did right? Nicholas: Yeah, we did. I mean I think another pain point of any business or entrepreneur is when you're kind of forced to grow. Some people just want to grow but then you grow too fast and you can't handle it. But for me these types of pivots; when you're almost forced to do something it's kind of like working out and you've got to go to that next level of weight to kind of grow. So for me, yes we were manufacturing in Miami for an insane amount of cost per unit. And I did that also on purpose which I suggest people do because you don't want to invest too much with too many units and then they don't sell. So I was willing to see proof of concept. That was my first thing. Joe: Especially for you, because you invented the niche, a lot of folks are finding a niche that's already selling well and they're just doing that branding of their own product. They know there's; they need to get eyeballs. They know the units are going to sell if I can get eyeballs. You know it only had to get eyeballs but you had to educate the people what the product was. Nicholas: Right. Joe: So the video was fantastic. That's a very visual product. Nicholas: Absolutely. Joe: So at one point you did pivot and you moved manufacturing overseas. Did you figure that out yourself? Did you hire a company? Nicholas: Yeah. You know actually that guy originally; so I'm kind of like Bob the Builder, right? I'll piece everything together and when we were manufacturing Miami I was sourcing the materials from China. You just buy; my natural gut feeling like let me source material there, ship it here, and then make it here. So the problem with that obviously is the fact that it's super expensive to be shipping a bunch of material. So the same guy that I ended up ordering a lot of the material from we established a nice rapport and relationship he ended up kind of telling me on the side hey look I'm going to go up my own manufacture let me know if you need anything. So essentially not only did I create a niche but for this individual, he ended up starting his own manufacturing facility almost really based off of our product. And we were like his number one customer. So we had a long relationship. He was basically the only guy I used for the entire time and I think to this day the new owner is actually still using him. Joe: [inaudible 00:22:53.9] loyal; that's the story. Good relationships like that are great. I'm going to throw out there to some of the folks listening there are companies out there that can help with the manufacturing overseas. I just did a podcast with Zach Leonard from Gembah and he's explaining what they do and it's the exact type of company that you probably needed at the time. It would've made your life a lot easier. They do all the importing and shipping, the [inaudible 00:23:22.1] industrial designers on the team. I know their company; I think in Gembah is Austin, Enventys is down in Charlotte. They've been around since 2002. They actually did some of the industrial design work for the Miracle Mop and other products like that; a really, really impressive company there as well. They actually; really interesting for proof of concept like your new invention, new category that you created, they will actually do all the industrial design work, do 3D printing, do a video of the product, and then put it up on Kickstarter there's interest. And then if it's a success they'll take the orders but then they'll go manufacturing. So brilliant idea. It's; I don't know, I wish everybody listening that's an entrepreneur now knew about these different companies. Nicholas: Of course, it would make it; I mean that's why I said in the beginning of the podcast you got to be willing to learn something new every day because I didn't have experience in sourcing or manufacturing but I learned. Joe: Yeah. Nicholas: So it's great to have those companies but with that also will come costs. So you do have to have a little money. I'm sure it's not free. Joe: Yeah, they probably don't work for free that's for sure. Nicholas: No, they probably don't. Joe: Let's talk about Shark Tank. You brought it up; you were on Shark Tank. How did you go through the process? What was it like? Was it the biggest joy in your life or very very difficult? Nicholas: I mean it's obviously very stressful in the sense that they leave it open-ended. Like literally; and I think when I heard one of the other guests on the show talk about how they never really guaranteed anything and that's super true. Actually, the whole process took a year. So from the year that you audition until; and it could be different in any case, but the year you audition or the beginning of it then you go through several funnels of interviews, face to face Skype calls or Xoom calls like this and then eventually you fly out to LA and you pitch in front of the producers and it's still not guaranteed. And then they'll call next. And if not you fly back. And then if they choose you, you stay another day or two and then you just wait for your spot to be filmed and then you're still not guaranteed to be airing. Now the airing of the show is kind of like the pivot for the company. And not only that if you do film and you get a deal that's huge because it adds a lot of value to that shark to then want to close the deal with you. So by the time that we auditioned, filmed, and then I think there was like a six-month gap in between due diligence and finally getting that air date which they only give it to you like a week or two in advance. So imagine that, it's like you're always on your toes like are we going to get it, are we're going to air, are we not; but they just say do your business as if Shark Tank doesn't exist. Joe: That's hard to manage your inventory level if you're going to get that extra 10,000 orders next week. Nicholas: Of course and you can imagine I like to call the Shark Tank effect this kind of trickle effect because let's say you do air. The amazing thing about it is as we all know nobody really watches TV live anymore, or at least I don't. So you get that initial spike from viewers that are viewing it live. Of course, you can advertise that; promote it, but then you're on Hulu, Netflix, Amazon Prime, you're on all these things that you're kind of in the Shark Tank alumni books forever. So you still get spikes. I mean in fact we still re-air all the time; airports, I think it goes from ABC to CNBC. So that content is syndicated across all the platforms and it's great. So just to be on air alone the exposure is worth millions of dollars advertising. So it was a great experience. I definitely will go for it again if I can. And it was great. It was an amazing experience. Joe: I bet they would love to have you back with a second invention someday. That would be really; a good story for them too I could just see it really, really working. So we're going to fast forward a little bit. I just want to say one thing about Shark Tank I had another guest on that said that after you pitch a lot of entrepreneurs come pitch the same day they take them and they put them all in separate hotel. You have to go for an hour of council and then you go to separate hotels. Do you have to do the same thing? Nicholas: Yeah, that was absolutely true and I think I know the conversation that you were having with [inaudible 00:27:51.9]. Joe: So you had to go through an hour of counseling as well just to make… Nicholas: I was like alright can we go now? I'm good. But yeah it just depends. I mean it's very stressful you need to almost debrief because I mean I remember the call time was like let's say 6:00 a.m. but we didn't film until almost 12:00. And I was starving I'm like I literally pulled the producer and I'm like I got to eat I'm about to pass out. I imagine it's like the biggest pitch in your life. And that's another crazy thing to think about to kind of show anybody that's scared to pitch, public speak, to do anything like that. That was the first time I've ever even pitched a business. So it's like I never pitched a business in front of Joe or Bob or anybody. And then here I am in front of Mark Cuban, Lori Grenier, Chris Sacca, like all these major names that I'm like just doing my thing. And that's another cool tidbit of the show that I could probably add that you feel like you might be nervous and all that but not really because it's like having a conversation. They're intimidating, you're in there for like an hour, and then they condense it down to eight minutes. So it seems intense but it's TV guys. So just keep that in mind. Joe: Lots of editing. So the success on Shark Tank led to lots of knock offs. But you were working on the patent the entire time. And eventually, you were offered two utility patents, design patents, things of that nature. What did you do? We talked about this just as they started coming out and you mentioned the patent, the Amazon patent neutralization program, for those that are not familiar with it could you talk about that a little bit? Nicholas: Yes sure. You know this is Amazon's way of showing you know what guys we got to do something about this we know it's an issue and Amazon is such a huge platform. And I think that's why everyday people are kind of like well I want to do this too. And so sometimes dealing with some of these knock offs directly and strategically you realize they're just everyday people that didn't even know they were knocking you off. And then, of course, you have people that know that they're knocking you off and then they try to be slick and go around you whatever it might be. But the Amazon patent neutralization program is great for patent holders, inventors and it says look if you're selling this product you have a utility patent we're not going to be a lawyer but they hire a third-party law firm that instead of going through litigation which we could even touch on that quickly as I went through a litigation with a knock off that tried to sue me and here I am blowing cash which of course affects the bottom line; cash that I'll never see again. But circling back the program actually is instead of going through a long drawn out expensive process of patent litigation it brings in a third party and it says seller if you have a patent give us a list; I think it's 50 Asense at a time, we're going to reach out to all them. They have two weeks to respond. If they don't respond well then guess what? Automatically you get removed; the sellers that are knocking off. So it's kind of like they just said alright we bow out without saying anything. And then what we found was a small percentage of people opt-in. The opt-in process costs I think $4,000. I don't know if it's changed as of today. I mean it's only been a couple of months. So you opt-in with 4k, the other seller has now another two weeks to put in 4k and then you go through the process. I don't know what happens after that because I at this point in the business ended up selling it. And of course, this gave great hope for the new buyer because he's like wow we just got rid of 50 plus Asense, only two people opted in. I think this is great. So it just allows the inventor; because there's really nothing you could do for patents right now before that. You could do trademark claims and copyright claims but that portion of it what we found building our SOP's is that it's really outsourced. So it's crazy you could do the same trademark claim eight times and it doesn't get caught by the first seven agents so the eighth agent might pick it up and remove it but it's a game of Whack a Mole and man is it frustrating. Joe: Yeah. We'll talk to Raj about it. Nicholas: Absolutely. Joe: About the neutralization program and what it looks like competition-wise on Amazon now that they've got that program in there. Let's talk a little bit about preparing your business for sale and you've gone through this, you've got the benefit of hindsight. You did a lot of things right. Clearly, these folks have heard about Snoop Dogg tweeting about your product line, being on Shark Tank, and you got an offer but you ended up turning it down eventually. Just for clarification purposes that is the deal, right? You got the offer but you ended up not going with it. Nicholas: Yeah on Shark Tank we ended up doing a deal with Laurie. That's a funny piece; definitely watch as far as the way I close that deal. She was about to be [inaudible 00:32:38.0] I'm like why don't you make me an offer and she's like wait, what? Okay. So we got the offer but it was a rich 40% for 100k. Thank God I didn't take that deal. Looking back now I'm going to exit, imagine if I only owned 60% percent of the company. Joe: Yeah. So you did get an offer but you eventually turned it down because your business was exploding and growing. Nicholas: Financially it made zero sense but I wouldn't change it for anything. Joe: So then you're preparing the business for sale. We had a chance to meet again down in Miami at the Blue Ribbon Mastermind. So you've got that benefit of hindsight. To the audience that's listening now, that is running a business and may eventually exit or they never thought they could exit. What advice do you have for them in terms of the one or two things that they must do to prepare the business for sale and get them out? Nicholas: Well, first things first. I think having the benefit of hindsight is start a business to exit, right? Have an intent to exit because I don't think most people think about that. Even when I started Beard King I didn't think oh I wonder how this is going to end. I just thought it's going to always go up. And that's fine if you want to leave on a legacy or pass it to your kids or whatever it might be. But regardless I think you should always have an exit plan in the back of your mind and start there and then reverse engineer the business to always have a target to move towards. The second part of what I would suggest and probably would have changed for myself the beginning setting yourself up is the books. When you and I met back in January of 2019 you're like Nick look you got to get your books together. I mean obviously, if you're trying to sell an asset people need to see the numbers and the SDE based off of your last twelve trailing months isn't so strong. But you know what Joe I like how you said wait a little bit. Wait six months or and go get the valuation in the multiple that you want. So I think having your books in place, having the SOPs ready to be literally turn key is really the benefit to getting ready to exit your business. But if you do that from the get-go and you reconcile that every month it's much easier to do so literally in our case sell a business in two weeks. Joe: Yeah. The most difficult thing as a business adviser like myself, broker advisor is when someone comes to us and wants a certain value for their business and they ask is it worth this. And I can't tell because they don't have good clean financials. And by good clean financials, I don't mean that you don't run your personal stuff through the business. Most entrepreneurs do that. In fact a couple of things; I want to give a shout out first to Tyler Jefcoat at Seller Accuntant. So Tyler was great in this relationship; introduced us, good guy, you never hired him but he just gave you some advice and or did you hire him? I don't think you actually hired him to do the books, right? Nicholas: We ended up hiring him to do an audit sweep. Joe: There you go. Okay, so Tyler shout out to Tyler Jefcoat at Seller Accountant. The other thing is that there are generally four pillars; it's that risk, growth, transferability, and documentation. So if you do number one what Nick said was go into this with a plan to exit. Figure out what that exit process is like; figure out what the valuation process is like. Do you know audience what the definition of seller's discretionary earnings is? If you don't go to one of last three or four podcasts; Mark and I did an entire episode on what's a legitimate add back and it goes through that entire process. One of the benefits that you have now is that you've been there and you've done that. You've got that patent back there on your wall. You've sold a business. You've got the branding experience. You've got the manufacturing experience, the importing experience, the marketing experience; you've got it all. Now you just have to find that next great product and do it all again. And I see this every time; the first one you take some money off the table and the next one it's five to ten times bigger. And I'm hoping that's going to be the case for you. What is your next adventure? Do you have it sort of turning around back in your head or you're doing it or are you just taking some well-deserved time off from it? Nicholas: I'm sure like most entrepreneurs you could retire on a beach and then figure out what am I going to do with all this sand, right? You get bored. Joe: Yeah. Nicholas: You know taking a couple of weeks off to just reflect; your personal development I think is key to just kind of figure out your next move. And I think for me it's reflecting and learning from the mistakes and then creating an even stronger foundation even if it's from a corporate level, operational level, legal level; all these things that I learned on the fly. If you can set them up in the beginning with the intent to exit you're going to have a better shot at what you said; a higher multiple. I mean look selling Beard King was amazing but I think for me besides the liquid side of the asset I basically just purchased an MBA. I got a legal degree. Joe: At best you got your doctorate man; you learned so, so much. Nicholas: So much and I think it's that key takeaway of learning all those things hands-on versus just your standard education or self-taught on YouTube; it's invaluable. It's absolutely invaluable. Joe: I'm calling you Doc Galekovic from now on. Nicholas: I like it. Joe: [inaudible 00:37:54.2] because that's what you did for your own business. That's great. Nicholas: Absolutely. Joe: So listen we're running out of time, how do people find you if they want to reach out and talk to you about your story; maybe you can help them with their business or whatever the case is. It's always good to connect. How does somebody find you and reach out? Nicholas: Yeah, for sure. Definitely. You can reach out on Instagram. My handle is just my name so it's Nicholas Galekovic. I know that spelling is going to be tough but G-A-L-E-K-O-V-I-C, or you could shoot me an email directly. It's actually galekovic.nicholas@gmail.com. Joe: And we will put that in the show notes as well. Perfect. This has been fantastic. You're a good man. I appreciate you choosing Quiet Light Brokerage. It's been a pleasure working with you. I look forward to hearing about and helping you with your next adventure. Be sure to stay in touch [inaudible 00:38:43.1]. Links and Resources: Nicholas' Company Nicholas' Instagram Email Nicholas

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Streamline Your Product from Concept to Market with Gembah

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 20, 2019 32:57

Product innovation, product creation, and product variance are the key lifelines to any Amazon e-commerce business. Unless you are very lucky, simply putting one product out there and hoping that pays off is not going to be sustainable to your business. Today's guest helps people working with overseas importers to navigate the realm of product development, sourcing, and all that any e-commerce business owner needs to achieve success and save some money in the process. Zack Leonard became interested in product design and importation after starting out as a consultant and working in operations and strategy. His interest was piqued when he started delving into what goes on in product manufacturing. Zack started to research and test what was missing in the market. What started as quality control team on the ground overseas has grown into a full-service product innovation platform that brings in experts all along the product creation, development, and delivery chain. Episode Highlights: How Zack got started in manufacturing and the story of Gembah. Zack walks us through a case study of a client Gembah has helped streamline product design and delivery. How Gembah is able to shave off thousands and create value for your business with his services. The design process their teams go through with clients. How relationship building is essential to the services Zack offers. How Gembah's consolidated shipping tactics help clients. The process is for new product manufacturing launch – goals for an awesome product. Mutual nondisclosure steps taken by Gembah and their clients. The importance of visiting the factories and making that culture stop overseas. Transcription: Mark: Joe as you and I both know product innovation product creation and variance on your product is one of the key lifelines to any Amazon business. You can't just launch a product or if you can you're very, very lucky. Most businesses don't just launch a product and live with that forever. You need to be able to come up with new products to feed your audience, to feed your; complete your customers in some way. Then I understand you have Zack Leonard on who his company helps with just that; product creation, sourcing, reducing COGS. Tell me a little bit about the conversation. Joe: Yeah. Zack is from a company called Gembah and he came to us through some people that have bought some sizable businesses with us. People that I would say are smarter than us and are in the e-commerce world working with Chinese manufacturers developing new products, sourcing new products, and just focused on all aspects of importing from I should say overseas. It's not always China. But it was a fascinating conversation because a lot of people that we talked to whether they're buyers or sellers want to expand their product line. A lot of conversation that you and I have with entrepreneurs we repeat over and over it's not just about the top line it's the bottom line and you shouldn't just drive revenue and not focus on reducing your cost of goods sold or repackaging or stop shipping things by air and do it by freight things of that nature. Zack's company focuses on all of that and it's right there in Austin, Texas and he just goes through all of it here in the podcast and it's fascinating. I think a lot of people are going to say where the hell was this guy when I started my business because you're going to want to use him and similar services like his. Mark: You know I was just talking to somebody right before you and I jumped on this call here where he had an idea. He's a consultant on a lot of different things and he was asking me about product packaging and Amazon businesses whether or not there would be a market out there from amazon sellers who want to save some money on their packaging and maybe getting better rates from Amazon in that regard. And I tried to explain to them that yes people are interested but in the Amazon eco-space, there is this element of there's so many opportunities to either cut costs or grow revenue. Most people are focusing on this; the 20% that's going to have the 80% effect, right? And so if you can hire somebody like Zack; if you can find a company like Zack's that can come in and take care of maybe the other 80% that you're ignoring because you're simply too dang busy with all the other stuff that's on your plate that can be a really key win for your company. Joe: Yeah I think it's an opportunity to at least listen to it have a conversation I think that; you know I asked him throughout this is not, by the way, a pitch for his services. I asked for golden nuggets all the way through. What are people doing right? What are they doing wrong? What would you advise them to do? How can they cut their own costs and things of that nature? So I think it's going to help people if they're in the e-commerce world now and it's an opportunity. You could talk to him at the end. We gave out his information. It's Gembah.com G-E-M-B-A-H but listen to it, it's fascinating. Some of the tidbits he gives throughout the entire podcast are really valuable. Joe: Hey folks it's Joe Valley from Quiet Light Brokerage and today I've got Zack Leonard on the line with me from Gembah. Zack welcome to the Quiet Light Podcast. Zack: Thanks, Joe. I'm really excited to be here; excited for the next 30, 30-ish minutes to talk more about what we do and a bit more of our background. Joe: Let's jump right into that. Tell us about what you do, what Gembah is, and who you serve. Zack: Yeah. So I am the founder and president of Gembah. We are a product innovation platform. So we help businesses both e-commerce Amazon and promotional products companies and retail brands create and manufacture products. So we have a team of engineers, designers that help more with the product innovation side of things. So helping bring ideas to life through sketches, design, whole renderings, CAD drawings. And then we have a team in China that focuses on the manufacturing once those collaterals for your projects are done; for those cool products that are you trying to make. We turn it over to our team to help put it out to our factory network which is over 500 now. And then once you're into production we do a bunch of quality control measures and really look at it as if you are physically there in the factory yourself to take photos and videos along the way to make sure that we're scrutinizing the way that you would not a third party necessarily. Really we see ourselves as a partner in crime in that sense and then once everything's ready to go we help with the logistics as well. So really a turnkey operation to make sure that you can get these cool products to the market in a very fast manner. So typically we can get them out in like three or six months. Joe: Where the hell were you when I was in the e-commerce world dang because I needed you? Zack: Actually during that, I keep hearing that but we're here now. Joe: Yeah, I actually; two different e-commerce worlds, first for me it was supplements; digestive health supplements that was US-based. But we had another; my wife had a different product that we manufactured in China or she manufactured in China but we had no idea what we're doing. So I love this subject and I think there's probably a lot of people that are listening going oh my God where has this guy been? So tell us that, where have you been? How did you get started doing what you do? What's your background prior to Gembah? Zack: Yeah, so it's actually unrelated completely. I started as a consultant many moons ago; my prior life. And really that helped me organized chaos and kept me that operational and financial way of thinking. And I moved into a role where I was running the Texas markets for a company called Instacart which is same-day delivery. And you get to see explosive growth and I was employee I think number 40 or something like that so moving a market from zero to doing seven-plus figures in a week in GMV which is hiring nonstop. Basically we have to hire 75 to 100 people a day. It is nuts. Joe: Wow. Zack: Yeah and then from there I moved into a strategy role at a company called Dropoff which was focused on more than just grocery delivery but more to same-day courier delivery. And while I was there I started to pick an interest into manufacturing side of things; it always, Show How It's Made always resonates with me. I like to watch that show. And then I met a couple of people that were into the manufacturing. One of them owns a pet products company. And he really opened my eyes to what really goes on into that. And the whole time I was thinking man there's really a problem that was on for a product company to try and find a good resource to really make products overseas especially. So I started doing a ton of research and then I started to really just test this theory out of what is missing in the market out there. And it started off as really just trying to be like a quality control company seeing like how we can help and we've just been like a team on the ground overseas. And as we continue to grow over the last couple of years we've started to say okay so just being a; there's tons of companies out there that do this already. What is the it-factor for Gembah? It is really offering that full-scale design plus manufacturing offering where we can take something from idea all the way through the entire process. And the reason for that is I've seen a couple of my friends go through that process and they work with a designer maybe and then it's kind of disjointed. You have that experience where you go in the designer and they don't know if they can actually get that product manufactured. They go to the manufacturer and they say okay well what do I have to change? You can make a mass scale production here. Then you have to go back to designer and designers are charging them and then the manufacturer says well that's wrong. This whole process is just kind of just not straightforward. And so what we're trying to do is bringing experts along the way at each different part of the cycle so start off with the product design part of it and have experts that have made products and manufacturing at full scale manufacturing before and then sync them up with the factory so that you don't have that lack of communication; that gap in communication. That's resonating really well especially in the Amazon space. We've started to even expand our offering beyond just the product design into more of a research-based company to help with; you know there's tools out there like Helium 10 and so but we have a team over there that can help really expedite that process and enhance the Helium 10 experience. Joe: So expand, you mean expand beyond their current set of SKUs to a wider product line; is that what you mean by expand? Zack: Yeah, so let's say that you have a search term that you find that is really hot right now. There's a lot of investment that could go on into making a product completely new from scratch or incrementally innovating and paying some high design fees if you don't know what you're doing. What we can do is actually say okay you find this hot search term let's go talk to our factory networks and find out what the latest and greatest technology is for that search term and find out a product that isn't on the market yet and then you just go sell it, right? And we've done that successfully now for a couple of our customers and they actually have a seven-figure product now because of our research. Joe: That's amazing. Let's talk real-life examples if we can without naming names or products or anything like that but can you walk us through a relationship that you have where they've come to you, met with you, sat down with you and your team and what you did for them in terms of helping them design and develop the product and expand and find those manufacturers and so on and so forth. Zack: Absolutely so there's a customer that we have that's an eight-figure seller now and they came to us with a couple of issues. One is they're one of those companies that acquires a bunch of other smaller sellers and tries to roll them up. And so a lot of those sellers when they sell they made it from their factories on Alibaba or they may have gone over and met the guy in a subway or something like that and they're taking those guys at face value. Well first thing that we do with them is help optimize their supply chain. So if they have a bunch of different companies we're helping them really understand are they getting the best pricing, are they scaling the correct way, or maybe if they have similar products are we able to condense them into one single factory or maybe two factories instead of three different factories that they have. And so when you talk about that you're talking about giving them buying power. You're talking about giving them scale at the factory. I mean able to shave off like 20 to 30% of their product cost so at their bottom line we're talking; you're adding a ton of revenue or saving a ton of cost to their bottom line so that's kind of the first thing we did for this company. The next thing we did is… Joe: Pause right there just so that people understand and I maybe I don't need to do this because the audience is incredibly smart and adept but if you're selling; simple math 1,000 units a month and you're saving a $10 product cost. And correct me if I'm not getting this right Zack but $10 product cost and you're shaving off 20% that's from manufacturer to FBA in this case $2 per unit or $2,000 per month what that does everyone is that adds 24,000 to the bottom line and if your business is worth 3, 4 times that's going to add $7,500,000 to the overall value of your business when you eventually do exit it as well. So we're always talking about it's not the top line that only matters but working with some of it Zack and improving that bottom line and the efficiencies and the profitability; that's what really drives value. It's not just the top line. I'm sorry to interrupt but keep going. Okay, so you're working with this particular client to reduce their cost of goods sold and streamline and go on. Zack: That's right. So that's kind of the first set of operations that we helped them do. The next set is they identified a bunch of SKUs that they want to add to their brand or add to their existing brands. The first step is if they want to just white label a product because they see how we've been able to give them better pricing they'll come to us and say hey I just want to go white label this, I found a hot product, let's go find it. They set a price target and the quantity and 9 times out of 10 hit that price starting in quantity and get them adding SKUs; adding value to their overall brand, diversifying their brand, giving that perpetual continuous flywheel of bringing out new products that are really reasonable clip in terms of time. Like I said it's like three to six months. Joe: And they're using a software like Helium 10 to see what kind of sales are already occurring. They know that that particular product is a hot seller. They're just going to jump on the bandwagon so to speak? Zack: Sometimes yes I think they also have their own proprietary software that they use. Joe: There's the Jungle Scout, there's the Helium 10, there's a lot of things out there that can help with it but that's what they're doing is to research goods; okay this is something that sells well? I'm going to go ahead. Okay, I got it. Zack: And if they want to differentiate from that then they'll come to us and say okay I want to make a new or incremental innovation on this product. I looked at maybe some of the reviews or I have some sort of test market that I go out and look at and say hey what do you think about this product and they give some feedback and then they say I need to make X Y Z enhancements on a certain product. Our team will design it really fast. Usually we get those designs back in about a week we. And then we go put it out to our factory network and then they're able to again get on that flywheel of creating new products in three to six months. So obviously it's just a straight sourcing white label gig that can take a lot less time. That can take like a month maybe to get a product out to market. And then if it's more of a design-focused project then it can take like three to six months. Joe: Okay, and the designers are industrial designers doing real 3D renderings, things of that nature? Zack: Exactly right. So our process really starts off with sketching. So we'll do two to three sketches of each concept based on a conversation or a full project kickoff we have for each one of the SKUs and from there we then focus in on getting to that final rendering and then we'll then prepare you and enable you to have the real blueprints of the product; so the CAD drawings, all the build materials, all that stuff you need to really look like a professional when you go and start sourcing overseas. One of the biggest problems I see with a lot of sellers is that they try and go talk to these factories on Alibaba and they go and say oh I want to make X Y Z changes to your product not really giving them that collateral and saying these are the exact changes I want to make. And so the factories know that you're a fish in that circumstance. They know that they can take advantage of you. You go to them with a design sheet; full build materials, a full CAD drawing to show them exactly what you want, they're going to take you a lot more serious. And so what we're really trying to do is prepare you for that conversation whether it's through us or whether it's on your own factory network but we want to make sure you look like a professional. You can start getting better pricing because of that. Joe: Okay. So if I was the person that had the e-commerce store or Amazon business or both I can choose. I can take your renderings and go direct to my own manufacturer or I could have you bid it out to your manufacturers as well. Zack: Yeah, if you want to. We prefer that you build it out with our factories obviously. We tend to have better pricing than the average Joe. But if you want to go off on your own we're more than happy to do that. Joe: Yeah, so let's say that I hired you, do the relationships with your manufacturers transfer to me? Do I get to work with them directly or are you always in the middle? Zack: Typically if you're going through us to manage it you're using us as your face in China or Vietnam or India or wherever we're doing business with you. And the reason for that is because the relationship building is so important as well as we provide the quality control. So it's something you just take off your plate. You don't have to worry about it. You don't have to fly over to China. We just handle that relation for you. We're going to show up at the factory, we're going to build the relationship, we're going to constantly go to bat for you, try to get better pricing, make sure that if your factory is getting behind or they're starting to lose scale you can start having a conversation about either bringing you to the next level factory; the higher level or starting to scrutinize the build materials that they give back if it's an assembly factory and say hey maybe this component that you're sourcing you're marking up too much let me go find a different factory for that individual component and get it cheaper for you. So we do that a lot of times with packaging for example; if you go to an assembly factory they're going to upcharge the packaging. But we have the packaging factory work it that. We can compare pricing to make sure that your assembly factory isn't up charging you. Joe: Yeah, every dollar counts again to that bottom line. I had someone on the podcast a few weeks ago; folks if you haven't heard it somebody bought a business from Quiet Light and within a few weeks they did what Zack is talking about which is exchange out one part and get another part. I think he saved something like $4 per unit and per SKU and they sell thousands on a monthly basis. It was just a tremendous instant equity to his business and overall a bump in bottom-line revenue as well or profit I should say. Do you also do consolidated shipping so that if you've got three or four different clients that are manufacturing from different facilities can; do you do partial container load with different folks and reduce their overall shipping costs as well? Zack: Absolutely if they have factories that are located in essentially the central part of China that goes to the same port we absolutely can handle that. We're doing that right now with one of our customers actually. They have three different factories after three different products and they're trying to fill up a 40-foot high container and they want to make sure that we can make it happen for them and that's something we do pretty easily. So yeah we definitely do that. Joe: Educate me. Make me sound smarter than I am. Is it LTL less than container load is that what the acronym is? Zack: LCL, less than container load. Joe: LCL. Okay, thank you. Thank you very much. Alright, I'll try to remember that. I'll get it wrong the next time we do this and people are going to go, God, Joe you just can't get that right. But I don't do what you do so it's okay. I don't need to know what you know that's why people. Alright, so the design aspect going back to that again, how does somebody approach you? What's the ideal situation; is it do you have a form on your website site, do they just come to you and they have a conversation with you, how does it start, how does it work? Zack: Yep. So we have a form on our website which kind of gives you just the basic Name, Email, Phone, What you're trying to make, and then we'll have a conversation with you about what you're trying to make and we'll start the conversation with understanding if there's patent issues or some like that so that we can have an understanding if there's any legal obstacles we have to overcome. After that, it's really just talking with our industrial designer to pull out every information from you that they need to do their job which is who's your inspiration, what's your end-user goal, all the stuff you want to have in terms of making an awesome product and then we go to work. I mean we try to make this process as simple and easy for anyone who wants to come interact with us. Joe: So when we do valuations at Quiet Light which I hope we're doing well in advance of somebody exiting their business so that they get more value. Oftentimes people say well I don't really want to share my information with you until we have a nondisclosure agreement on file. Will you send that to me? Do you start with a nondisclosure agreement on file because you've got an awful lot of information about somebody and you can decide to go into the e-commerce business yourself? Zack: Yeah. We won't have a conversation with you until you sign a nondisclosure because of that. It's mutual. We make sure that all the IP is protected; all the conversations are protected because our business is really secretive, right? So that we make sure that everything is completely sound in terms of legal and protection for the IP. Joe: So theoretically if I decided to work with you, do I really never have to go to China? Zack: Never. I mean we encourage you to because it's always great to meet the factory and our team. But in terms of like reality, no you don't have to. Because we have someone who's going on your behalf showing up at the factory doing pretty much everything that you would do and they understand the culture because they're locals. Joe: You know we had Dave Ryan on the podcast and he's from EcomCrew and a big part of his contribution to that is manufacturing in China and he's an expert at it and his wife is actually from China originally and he lived there for a long time. And he talked about the benefit of that relationship. I've heard people talk about it when they go over and they meet the manufacturers and they go out to dinner drinks and drinks and drinks and drinks as understand. It changes things. They're willing to give you perhaps better pricing, better terms, things of that nature. Do you fully replace that or should a business owner also; it's still your relationship with the manufacturer but should they get over there as well? I mean what do you; I mean you said you think that or you think that they should go over but truly they don't ever have to. What's the benefit of them going if it's your relationship with your manufacturer? Zack: Yeah there is a business culture called Guanxi in China which is exactly what that is. It's basically how they operate in terms of the business language and how they operate from the business culture. And what they enjoy is the face to face interaction. There's a lot more conversations that can be had. You can learn about their family. You can talk about what kind of food they like to have, all that kind of stuff. There's a lot of value that comes out of building the relationship and like you said they'll start to give more concessions. There's a ton of people going to them every single day on Alibaba or in person that wants to do business with them but they value the people who are there for the long term and the people who really make an effort. And that's because that's just how their culture is. So while you don't have to do that because we're taking care of that we definitely enjoy, recommend, whatever you want to call it, you personally as the business owner of your business going over there. Maybe it's not every year; maybe it's every other year, maybe if you want to go there every six months, whatever it is we help facilitate that. So if you show up we're going to take you with our team over there. So you get to meet both our team which is also a part of it as well going to the factory. So yeah we'll take you straight from the plane to the hotel you choose. If you want to stay in our place you can stay at our place. And then from there, it's going to the factories. Joe: I love that. That's great. Zack: So you get to meet our team, see our office, if you want stay in our apartment we're more than happy to but really we give that white coat service in terms of making sure that you again look like a professional and look great in terms of the culture aspect over there. So we're just bridging that gap. Joe: That's awesome. It's standard business stuff and that's why we do video in addition to the audio on these because it's; look we can't meet everybody face to face but it's great to be able to see the whites and odds and talk to them when we talk to people all over the world. Talk to us about what are the biggest mistakes; let's say somebody doesn't want to use Gembah but educate them, help them, what are the biggest mistakes that e-commerce product owners, and marketers, FBA owners, what are they doing wrong at a dramatic level? Zack: That's simple. I think the number one thing I would take away is going to Alibaba unprepared. And the reason I say that is because Alibaba did a great job at bringing the factories to mass market. But they don't do a great job of explaining how the process works. And so there's a lot of things that you can go straight to Alibaba and get wrong. So I'm sure you've experienced this or maybe people; your audience has experienced this. We go to Alibaba, you ask for a price quote or something, you get a sample and then they change the price. Or you ask for an iteration of something they give you a price and then they make the sample and it's completely wrong. Or you order a product and then it's completely defective before you come back. I mean again this is just a software platform into a process that has been going on for thousands of years, right? Software is not going to necessarily overcome the hurdles that exist continuously in manufacturing which is defective products, building that culture, and building a relationship. So those are the three things that Alibaba really doesn't fix. And so what I would recommend again is to hire someone locally to fix those problems because there is a culture gap. You do need to build a relationship and you need to make sure that your products are not coming back defective. So those are the three things I think that are the most important in terms of doing business overseas that most people overlook. Joe: And what is the simplest thing somebody can do to reduce their costs? Zack: It depends on which part of the process they are in. So if they're; if you're talking about building something from scratch it's going to the factories and getting multiple bids with an actual blueprint. Like I always use the analogy of building a house; you wouldn't build a house without an architect. You shouldn't build a product without a designer and an engineer. You're just going to cut corners. They're going to take their interpretation of what you're trying to make and their interpretation is let's make this the cheapest way possible and charge the most they possibly can. Joe: It seems logical when you put it that way. Zack: Right. I mean who wouldn't do that? It's the same thing when you're building a home. If you go straight to the builder and you say I want to build a 2,500 square foot house. Okay, I'm going to build my interpretation of that and I'm going to put it up as fast as I can and as cheap as possible. Why wouldn't they do that? That's the way that we approach it. Joe: Okay. Any tricks or tips or advice in terms of shipping which is a big cost to freight when people are shipping products from China to Amazon or to their own 3PL or whatever the case might be; any tips there? Zack: Yeah. I think again always get multiple bids for that and then always make sure that your compliance is in order especially if you're building a new product. These products have never been out in the market before. There's a ton of compliance measures that need to be taken to make sure that they're labeled correctly. Like for example if you're selling a children's product. They need to be tested. They need to have a CA Prop 65, ASDM testing, a bunch of other testing that needs to happen and be labeled a certain way. If it's intended for infants it need to be choke; make sure there's no small parts that can choke them. They need to be labeled on the packaging as well a certain way. So those are all things that if you don't do those correctly they can get flagged at customs and ultimately turned back. And the factory is not going to reimburse you for the mistake that you made in not going to your compliance in order. And so that is a business killer. So that is the number one tip I can give to someone in terms of logistics and compliance is make sure you have all that in order before you bring a new product into the market. Those are all things that we help do obviously. Joe: Good advice and you do that again but what the heck is Gembah? How did you come up with that name? What does it mean? Zack: In Japanese Kaizen manufacturing theory there's the word Gembah which means the place where value is created on the manufacturing floor. So that is where it's based off of. In Chinese gembah means let's do this. So it's kind of a dual meaning both from the Japanese manufacturing and then the fun side which is gembah. Joe: Very cool. I got it. You just mentioned manufacturing; I want to go back to something you said earlier which was your manufacturers in China or Thailand or wherever they may be you named a few countries. How difficult is it now in this economy and this environment with all the trade wars to find something that's being manufactured currently in China and get a quote on their factories in Thailand and the Philippines and so on that can do the same thing? Zack: Yeah that's a great question and we get that a lot now from our customers and I think there are some products that are more easily transferred to a different country. If you're talking cut and sew apparel for places like Vietnam, glassware you can get in India pretty well, if you're talking injection molded items it's starting to pop up in Vietnam. You just have to make sure that you understand they move a lot slower. Especially in places like Vietnam, Cambodia, Philippines, and the reason for that is because they don't have the raw materials that places like India and China do. So they're importing almost everything from places like China, South Korea, India to get into their factories. So that adds time to the lead time of you making a product. So most Amazon sellers for example don't have the luxury of waiting 60 to 90 days to get a product into their hands of their consumers whereas these big e-commerce brands who spend a lot more time and money on R and D and come up with new products maybe 12 months in advance they can take that luxury and move their production over to different countries. So that's what you're seeing like the Nike the Adidas of the world moving into Vietnam or moved a lot of the production into Vietnam because they can do that. They have the operational capacity to do that. Joe: So for the six, seven, eight-figure brands that we know and we talked to is it worth it time-wise and financially; are they saving costs in terms of cost of goods sold or are they just comfortable knowing that they're not going to have to deal with any trade war issues in the future? Zack: I think that's a true business decision. While I would say the prices that we've seen between India and China specifically are not competitive. China's way more cost-friendly in terms of like apples to apples comparison on the exact same products I've seen 5x in India. Vietnam is pretty competitive because everyone is starting to knock at their door. So I've seen garment and apparel prices go up by 4 to 7% just cost of good before you get to the shipping and logistics side of things. So they're smart. They know that everyone's trying to come to them and their production lines are moving at a high clip now. So I think it's really you have to understand the entire landscape of your true landed cost and lead time before you actually make that decision of moving production over to Vietnam because it's not as easy as it sounds operationally. Joe: Right. Makes sense. Are you renegotiating with any of your Chinese manufacturers to offset the tariffs? Zack: Of course. Joe: They're okay with that; what are they like? Zack: Yeah, I mean it's a geopolitical issue that's going on and they don't like it either. Whoever side they end up taking is on them and whoever side we as Americans take is on us but there's certain things you can do to help them share the tax burden. There's certain things you can do especially with molds that you can start recouping your mold costs if you want to create some injection molded item. That's the kind of stuff that we do and we're talking about making you look like a professional. These are the things that we are bringing to the table when we start the negotiation process. And so because of the geopolitical landscape that we have this is part of the conversation now. Joe: It sounds like a really, really important conversation to have. How do people find you, how do they get started, that kind of thing? Zack: Yeah. So the best approach would be to go on our website www.gembah.com G-E-M-B-A-H.com and fill out a form and we'll be in touch with you as soon as you fill that out. Joe: Geographically where are you located? Zack: So we are headquartered in Austin, Texas; the barbecue capital of the world. Joe: And all you have to do today is put it on your dashboard because it's; I've talked to people in August here right so it'll grow right there. Yeah, I love Austin; lots of folks down there that we work with. Zack: Yup, and then our office in China is in the southern part in a place called Dongguan which is close to the Guangzhou area; it's the manufacturing capital for the south. Joe: So you get the grilling capital and barbecue capital and the manufacturing capital. I think the folks here in North Carolina may argue with you about the barbecue capital but I'm for me. Zack: Yeah we all love your sauce; I've come to learn that it's a saucy type of barbecue. I prefer the sauceless more of a dry rub which fits me well in Texas but I still like the Carolina barbecue. It's great. Joe: I won't say I disagree. Alright man, it's been great having you on the podcast. I'm looking forward to hearing some great successes from some of your clients who I know. I know a few that are working with you; people that have bought businesses from Quiet Light and sold to Quiet Light working with you now too. So it's been great having you on the podcast. I look forward to having the audience reach out to you and work with you and learn and get better pricing and better products out in the future. Thanks for your time today. Zack: Thank you, Joe. I'm really, really glad I could be here. I appreciate it. Links and Resources: Gembah Instagram Facebook

god amazon texas china talk americans chinese japanese market north carolina 3d vietnam phone product thailand software philippines south korea concept ip adidas oftentimes cambodia makes mutual alibaba cad instacart streamline xyz helium fba guangzhou drop off sku skus cogs 3pl gmv in chinese ltl jungle scout dave ryan quiet light brokerage joe valley quiet light mark you guanxi joe it ca prop dongguan joe you joe yeah joe let gembah joe so joe there joe good quiet light podcast

Investing in a Web-Based Business: Mistakes and Best Practices

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 28, 2019 39:13

Today we welcome Chuck (iii) Mullins, we are talking with him about his background, experience, his algorithm knowledge, ask him our rapid-fire questions, and pick his brain about the business. Chuck built his first profitable website back in 1996 when he was an impressionable 18 years old. He studied computer software engineering in college, which taught him the skills to analyze search results and implement strategies. Throughout his career of developing, managing, consulting, and investing in internet-based companies, Chuck has developed a keen ability to spot opportunities and develop strategies that lead to growth and profitability. Episode Highlights: Chuck's background, entrepreneurial experience, and success stories Web-based business ups-and-downs The difference in long-term cash flow from web-based businesses and get-rich-quick cash businesses Chuck's favorite web niches Chuck's favorite audience member (who is also a buyer) Websites that are more/less desirable The importance of knowing your Profit and Loss Biggest mistake buyers can make Best practices for buyers and sellers The importance of understanding the business and doing your research Quiet Light's vision and how we can help you Transcription: Mark: Joe, one of my favorite things about working with team Quiet Light is some of the camaraderie that we have with each other. The fact that we get to tease each other a little bit, egg each other on, but also help each other out; talk about deals, collaborate on our transactions because everybody at Quiet Light has so much entrepreneurial experience that it's like having this built in board of advisors for every single thing that we do. And one thing I think you and I need to do a better job of; I know we've had each of the advisors on Quiet Light at the Quiet Light Podcast. I think we need to bring them on a bit more so that others can enjoy some of the experience that they have. You had Chuck on recently and grilled him a little bit in this episode. Joe: I did. I want people to get to know Chuck for the fun experienced entrepreneur that he is. And so I mixed it up a little bit. I had some fun with him we did some rapid-fire questions. I intentionally; just let me get this upfront and out there for the audience. I intentionally mispronounced somebody's name. I butchered it intentionally. Again I did it seven or eight episodes ago and I got some email saying I think the person you're trying to find is so and so. I did it again. Mark: Same person? Joe: Same person; yeah, if he's listening. Mark: He needs to start listening to the podcast especially my episodes because frankly, I've got a leg up on you. Joe: You have overtaken me for the most popular episode on the Quiet Light Podcast. I will overcome that because I've got some great ones planned coming in here soon. Chuck is a fascinating individual. I've known Chuck for a long time and he's really, really smart when it comes to his entrepreneurial acumen. It's almost annoying to be honest because with a model that we have at Quiet Light Brokerage; we don't have employees, right? No one's an employee of Quiet Light Brokerage. We have a lot of entrepreneurs who work together in sort of a collective group. Well, one of the benefits to that is all the advice and feedback I'm able to get from people. And one of the most annoying things is all the feedback and advice I get from everyone. And sometimes; Chuck especially, Chuck is so thorough. What's the term he gives to himself? Whatever it is he just hyper focuses on the most minute little detail and I fear asking questions sometimes because of the level of detail that he's going to give to me in terms of what I have to fix and correct in a document that I'm creating. Mark: But at the end of the day even though sometimes it can be overwhelming like come on you think I'm doing everything wrong evidently because I keep getting his feedback, it's always on point. And I don't think I've ever received feedback from them where I look at it and say this is not worth considering or looking at; so a smart, smart guy. I'm looking forward to it. What are some of the things that you discussed in this episode? Joe: Well we talked about some of; he's got almost three years brokering now and over 20 years as an entrepreneur now. And he talked about some of his experiences; the pros and cons of A. being an entrepreneur, some of the things that he's found that certain buyers do better than anyone else, and how he wants new buyers to adopt that style, and then the biggest mistakes that someone's selling their business can make as well. And it's fascinating as I just said he's got 20 plus years as an entrepreneur. I'm in the same boat. You're in the same boat. So collectively the team at Quiet Light I'd say what 250 years of entrepreneurial experience that we share with our team with our clients and I think it's fascinating. Chuck is just the tip of the iceberg here in terms of the experience. So it's exciting to share this with him and we had a lot of fun. So that's the key to this one. Mark: Fantastic, well let's get to it. Joe: Hey folks it's Joe Valley from Quiet Light Brokerage on the Quiet Light Podcast. And today we have the most special guest. His name is Chucky. Now that's not what we call him. It's Chuck. I use his personal email address. I'm not going to tell you at what you can all haul in the mail anyway. You know his e-mail address its Chuck@QuietLightBrokerage. Chuck Mullins, welcome back to the Quiet Light Podcast. Chuck: Thank you, sir. Thank you. For any that's specific it's actually Charles Clifford Mullins III. That's my D-I-I-I. Joe: You know I am from New England I can't talk with a British accent; it's something about us. Chuck: Well I can't either. Joe: Alright. Well listen you know the routine. Normally on the podcast we ask people to give their own background; who they are, what they're all about so that we're not sounding like we're reading from a script which we don't. We wing these things. You know that. Our audience knows that. But before we get into that I want to ask you a series of rapid-fire questions; the first one so that people understand and establish your experience here at Quiet Light Brokerage, how long have you been brokering at Quiet Light Brokerage? Chuck: About two and a half; almost three years. Joe: Almost three years. Okay. So let's start with…I've got a total of six questions. Number one; and you've got to give me a quick answer. Number one, who's your favorite broker? Chuck: Joe Valley. Joe: Good, good, good. Alright, if you were stranded on an island with me, Brad Wayland, and Jason Yellowitz and a rash floated by and they would only carry three of us; there's four altogether, who would you leave behind and why? Chuck: Jason Yellowitz, because he would be able to burn his stacks of cash to stay warm. Joe: And he carries it with him, is that what you're saying? Chuck: Inaudible[00:06:25.8] Joe: Jason I know you all listen to the podcast so everybody make fun of Jason. That's your job here. Alright, this is a really important question. Who is the better podcast me or Andy Youderainan; I mean in Andrew Youderian? Chuck: I would have to go with Mark. Joe: You are… Chuck: Hello? Isn't it you that people come up to the Booze and ask for or is it Mark that they come up and ask for? Joe: That's me. It's me. Mark doesn't go to Booze. Alright, sid you know Walker Diabel wrote a book; and a best seller book? Chuck: Have you heard about the second book that he wrote? Joe: No. He wrote a second book? Chuck: Yes. If you go to WalkerDiebel.guru you can check out the second one that hasn't been released yet. Joe: Okay, Alright. So this is a tough question. This is not a trick question. I want to know if you can answer this one. What's the name of Walker's book? Chuck: Buy Then Build. Joe: You got it. Okay. Alright. Chuck: How can you not get it? I've heard it at every conversation. Every conference I go to there's these three books that are just floating around that conference and I'm like wait a second how did that get there? Joe: And it's the bottom of every one of his e-mail signatures. One of these days you're going to dig way back into the archives when he was actually an actor and find a clip and we're going to change his email signature line somehow some way. Alright, so as you know historically Quiet Light Brokerage does not recruit brokers. I have conversations three or four times a week these days with people who want to join the team. But we, for the most part, don't recruit. We have as you know or Mark has as you know recruited a few starting with Amanda back in the day. She was the first. And I think Brad was also recruited. And yourself was also recruited. Of all of the brokers that Mark recruited; last question by the way, what was his best decision? Chuck: Probably Brad. He's been killing it man. Joe: Man and give yourself some credit Chuck. Come on. Anybody but you would probably be the politically correct answer but essentially you just threw Amanda under the bus. But fortunately Amanda doesn't really listen to our own podcast either. Alright, enough of this nonsense; let's talk about you and your experience. I know all about you but for the audience members, Chuck has been on the podcast before Mark had him on when he first joined the team two and a half years ago, three years ago. And the focus of that podcast was a tiny little bit about Chuck but mostly about Chuck's due diligence experience. And I think you had a list of was it 25 due diligence tools? Chuck: Who can remember? Joe: Yeah, a lot. And it's all; if you Google Quiet Light Podcast, Chuck Mullins, due diligence you'll find it. It'd be at the top of the Google search engine and it's great stuff. And I learned a lot when I did it. But I would say I refer most people out for due diligence; buyers that is to our friend Chris Yates at Centurica. They do a great job. Well, let's talk a little bit about who you are and your life experience and a little bit of your brokering experience now that you're three years into Quiet Light. So who the heck are you? Tell us about your entrepreneurial experience. I know that you started way back when you were in college, right? Chuck: Yeah. I graduated high school in ‘96 and I always wanted a computer but we couldn't afford one. So finally for college I needed a computer so I got a computer and started a free website on it's like Angel Fire or Tripod or one of these things way back in '96. And I remember just putting up some content and that is an online library for college students. And I remember somebody offered me like 10 bucks at some point to put a link on my website. I'm like $10 awesome, I'm making money and then somebody offers me like a hundred bucks and I'm like what $100? So then I was; this is before I even had a domain so it was like AngelFire/blahblahblah. I started thinking about okay we'll buy a domain and back then they were like thirty-five bucks. I was talking to my mom and I'm like mom I'd buy a domain and she's like you're crazy you shouldn't buy you know like you're just wasting your money and why are you spending all this time in front of the computer and then it just started growing and then somebody offered me a thousand bucks. And before you know it I was making about sixteen grand a month off of advertising back in the ‘90s. Joe: In college, right? Chuck: In college; yeah, and so I was just… Joe: That's a lot of Jägermeister. Chuck: And the Internet bubble ended up bursting in like the 2000, 2001 and all that money like dried up overnight. So I was like okay now what? So I had to figure out how to pivot and myself and two other guys; we had different businesses. We all pooled together and started a membership site. The first month with our membership site we made like 60 grand. It was just like mind-blowing like oh my God we're in college. I didn't have keggers I had like full bottle; like full bar parties. Joe: Everybody wanted to be your friend, right? Chuck: It was fun and we'd stay at like the Ritz Carlton for Mardi Gras and like just do crazy things. We rented like a ski chalet; it was like a 15 bedroom house on the slopes and I forget where it was bit we then brought all of like; we had affiliates at the time, all our affiliates to come and ski with us and so we had a great time. And at some point, I was making a lot of money and I didn't really know what to do with it all. I was definitely wasting my fair share of it. Actually kind of going back, my mom, the whole thing with her telling me I shouldn't start the business and this and that in 2003 I think it was about my mom and sister cars for Christmas. Joe: I wrote that down when you said it because I knew that. You told me the story about Christmas and your mom went outside and there was a big ribbon on a brand new car. I guess she's happy you bought that domain name, after all, isn't she? Chuck: Yeah. Yeah for sure and I do not usually tell that story so maybe we'll have to edit that out. Joe: No. No editing. Tell the story. Chuck: I made two giant boxes and I had my mom like a box of some keys and she sees them and it had Lincoln in it which I had a navigator at the time and she's like oh it's a scavenger hunt he put his keys in here and she walks outside and sees this giant box and just like; my mom doesn't curse and she goes oh shit and she runs outside gets ready to tear into the box. And I said wait, mom, hold on hold on there's a card on there you've taught me better; open the card. And so she opens it and it says to my sister and my mom is like inaudible[00:12:57.1] my mom's like…well my sister is like to me? And again I wiggle the keys in front of my sister's face and she's like what?! So she runs and dives in and my mom looks at me like what this like WTF and I'm like you're over there. Then she starts walking and then sees it like buried on the other side of the house in a big box and like runs over and dives in. We're in Georgia at that time at a family house and it was cold and she didn't have shoes on. It was a great time. I've got the video. One day I'll have to share with somebody but I don't know that I want to share it. Joe: What a great experience and a great thing to do for your mother and your sister did. Did your mother get the nicer car or was it equal to both? Chuck: I was actually going to buy them the exact same car and then I was talking to my sister trying to like make sure that it was the kind of she would want and I said well what do you think Mom would like? And she said well my favorite car is a Sequoia and I ended up; my mom a Lincoln Aviator and my mom's Sequoia. They're about the same price. I think my sister was a little more but I did get some grief about that. Also the night before or a couple of nights before we went to Walmart and I bought every single piece of cheesy add on part you could get and added it to the car. So I got like a fuzzy steering wheel cover, dice, a little light-up things that go on the rims, and just totally like made the car look as ridiculous as possible and told them in order to get it they'd have to drive it with that stuff on it. Joe: That's hilarious. So for anybody that's listening instead of watching if you look at my chin and Chuck's chin you'll see some gray; there're probably a little more on mine than his of course. His is more his cheek mine's dead on center of my chin that's because of age and life experience. So you had some amazing times Chuck out of college making more money in a month than most people in this country do in a year; all web-based business experience. It's not always wonderful though. Chuck: No, absolutely not. Yeah, entrepreneurship is ups and downs. We've gotten hit by Google so many times I couldn't even tell you. And most of them were just algorithmic. But I have on one of my big businesses, we had about 12 that were all doing the same thing and one of my partners had used the same email address in our Webmaster Tools account and somebody from the spam team I guess noticed and went in and just manually penalized all of our businesses. I think except for two because those were the only two that didn't have those email addresses. And just overnight it's like poof gone and it's just like oh it's heartbreaking. At least when it's the algorithmic type of penalties it's easy to kind of; well maybe not easy but you're going to recover from that. The manual penalties, we hired somebody who used to work in the spam team. They told us what to do. We did it. We just haven't been able to recover from that on those other sites. Joe: Yeah I know it's always hard. Google algorithm updates I think are getting a little better, a little easier to handle and manage I think ultimately. I always used to say this actually if you do the right thing the way Google tells you to do it, ultimately it's not going to hurt you; the algorithm updates. And I guarantee there are people out there shaking their head no right now because a good friend of mine, he built a great business, a great, great content site, and sold it and there was a an update recently. And the buyer, another great entrepreneur bought it and did have some negative impact. What they both know is that sometimes when Google casts a wide net some of the wrong sites get caught up in it and over time that does get corrected but it does sting initially, doesn't it? Chuck: Yeah. And I will say like the reason we got caught up in a lot of the updates wasn't because we were doing the things that Google tells you to do. We were gaining the system and we deservedly got caught for doing those things and we would adjust our technique and then regain. So like one of our sites had like 100,000 pieces of unique content that we were in Google index for like 30 million pages. Joe: Wow. Chuck: So like how does one do that? Joe: How does one do that? Good Lord. Chuck: Trickery. Joe: Well the grey in your chin has matured you to the point that I think you're beyond the trickery because you look at the long term cash flow and benefits of owning an online business now it's not just a quick cash anymore. At least that's the way I look at it; you too? Chuck: Yeah, absolutely. And you're talking about like the algorithm updates and I feel like there's been so many and that most of the really garbage sites have probably gotten taken out by now. I feel like, and maybe I'm wrong but now it's more of like just tweaking the knobs a little bit. So unless you're in one of these like fringe business models I tend to believe and I could be 100% wrong but I tend to believe that most of the major algorithm updates have been already done and then now they're going after I guess like medical websites and things like that. Joe: Yeah. The updates are far further I'm sure in between and in many cases not as severe. Alright so I'm going to throw a question at you. I don't know if I told you this story or not or if you've heard it. Some of the audience members might have heard it so I'm going to just test your algorithm update knowledge. And if you answer within two seconds then I know you heard the story. So I bought a business, I sold my business in November 2010; yada, yada, yada. People have heard this a million times, or at least tens of hundreds of thousands of times if they've listened to every episode and keep downloading everything. No we haven't done 100,000 episodes that's totally inaccurate. I can't do math by the way apparently. Alright so I bought a content site. I sold a great site. The content was amazing. And then I bought a piece of junk. I had 42 amazing days. I bought it March 1st, 2012. I had maybe 3 or 4 keywords on the first page of Google and then boom they fell to the bottom of page 1 and then page 2 and they were gone and I lost over a quarter-million dollars in the course of twelve months. What happened? What algorithm update was that? It was; again I bought it March 1st, 2012; I had forty-two amazing days. Chuck: Panda. Penguin. Joe: Penguin. Alright, you're close. We're going to have to throw that quiz out there. Everybody in the audience wouldn't throw that quiz out there for a price. Chuck's wearing a beautiful Quiet Like Brokerage…is that a polo shirt? Chuck: Yeah. Joe: We need to get some of those packaged up and give away prizes for that kind of stuff. Alright let's jump on to your Quiet Light Brokerage life; your entrepreneurial life, amazing ups and downs, a lot of great ups and you did some good things for family and friends. The downs, we learn from them and we try to take those lessons and make sure that we are really bringing great listings to market so the buyers are making good safe investments and the sellers of those investments can move on with peace of mind to their next adventures whether that's another business or retirement. In your history of transactions here at Quiet Light, is there any particular niche that you gravitate towards and enjoy more than another because as you said a ton of content and affiliate experience, but I think some of your larger deals have been physical product e-commerce sites. But is there anything that stands out for you? Chuck: Yeah I mean so my heart is in like membership sites. I love recurring revenue. I think everybody does and that's why the multiples are higher because of that recurring revenue and the predictability. So I would say that that's kind of where I'd like to be but my biggest sales have been around physical products inaudible[00:20:53.3] an outdoor sporting equipment one that was great. One that I really love that I sold like six months ago was a company that did custom-tailored suits. That thing it's like awesome. Who doesn't want to say they have a business that sells custom-tailored suits? Like it's just; I think it's got the cool factor. Joe: That's the amazing thing about what you do and what we do at Quiet Light is that we come to this role with a lifetime of experience that; I was talking with Walker and Brad about this recently that we didn't know it but all of our entrepreneurial life was preparing us for this role. And now we get to experience so many cool different business models. You come to this role with a ton of membership experience but custom-tailored suits and you're like that's the coolest thing. Who doesn't want to say they own a custom-tailored suit business? I need to buy a custom-tailored suit. I know who bought it and I can reach out to him. I know who he is too. Speaking of that I do want to ask a random question although its timing is not very random and you have to answer this. There's only one answer to this. This buyer listens to the podcast and he comments and he tells us about us sometimes when he's riding his bike. So do you have a favorite audience member that also happens to be a buyer? Yes or no? You have to say yes and you have to say his name now because he's a… Chuck: Sure. Mike Nuñez. Joe: There you go; Mike Nuñez, this is just a shout out to you. Thanks for listening Mike. Chuck: Well I'll tell you it shouldn't just be a shout out to him. If anybody wants to know how to be a good buyer and how to buy businesses they should talk to Mike Nuñez because he is 100% the absolute best buyer I have. And not like just in a sense of like the actual acquisition of the company. When he gets on a phone call and talks to the sellers he makes them feel like they are the only person in the world; the most important person like he's just so smooth and he's not doing it as like a ploy or a gimmick. He's just a nice guy and he really appreciates these people and the businesses they've created. And it's just he's really good on a call. Joe: It's the unknown secret that we tell all the time to buyers. Look, when it's a great business it's a great opportunity. There are going to be multiple buyers. And it's not always the most money or the most cash that gets the letter of intent. In some cases, it's the buyer that the seller likes the most. And being likable on those conference calls is critically important. Mike does it very well. Chuck: And one of my businesses; actually I think two of them that Mike purchased, the sellers actually said like I want to sell to him. Make him buy this. It doesn't matter; I mean within reason, right? The price; but they were willing to take less than somebody else because they liked him so much. Joe: Oh boy. Now if Mike's listening and he paid full price now he's going to be like inaudible[00:23:49.1]. Chuck: That is the problem because of course I did make him pay more than the other people but they were willing to take less. And what's funny is one of my sellers told him as much oh like I would have taken less from you and I'm like don't say that to him. Joe: In his heart, he was willing to take less but his checkbook and his head was willing to take the highest bidder as long as it was Mike Nunez. That's the key. In your experience both as an entrepreneur and as an adviser here at Quiet Light you've seen a lot of businesses that have come up for first they reach out to us for a valuation, they start thinking about an exit sometimes the day before they want to exit, sometimes months or a year or so in advance. What do you see being the biggest thing; most consistent thing that those particular entrepreneurs do wrong time and time again that there's just if there's one thing you could just like shout into the microphone right now to everyone listening even though some of them are doing it right, what are the majority of folks not doing that that you want them to do to bring more value to their business? Chuck: Silence question. Joe: Yeah it was a long one. I kept rambling on in my sentences because I could see you thinking. Chuck: Yeah. Joe: Maybe I should have asked a little more. Chuck: What's weird about at Quiet Light is we actually get so many great businesses to sell. People bring us quality things. So what are some of the bad things people do? Joe: Let me just get some stats behind that though; because it's true what we bring to market, it's great stuff. But the reality is Chuck if you look at my numbers I've closed 105, 106 transactions in seven years. People say well that's not very many but in order to close those transactions; I've ballparked the math and I've talked to 2,500 entrepreneurs. That's 2,500 valuation calls. Your stats are similar. What is that consistent theme that if you could speak to somebody that someday may sell their business what should they be doing? Chuck: Sure. So when we talk about like specific like product-level things like when people are just selling random shots keys that aren't unique in any way; those are really difficult to sell. When you have an actual unique product that's got some sort of a brand to it that's not easily knock off-able that there's a moat around it like that makes it so much more desirable to people and so much more valuable. One of the things I also see probably is just P & L's; having clean P & L's. Oftentimes people's profit and loss statements are just a complete mess. They'll lump, they want to save; I was just thinking about a specific one, but you see people are just lumping things in because they know they had a cost but they don't really know when it was or where it was and they just kind of guesstimate things and put them in the wrong ones. So then you'll see like really lumpy P & L's. And we always try to work with people to flatten those out and figure out where the real costs are. So that often takes a lot of time to just figure out what the true P & L is on a business. And for doing add backs; what's a real add back? We fight with people a lot on what's a real add back versus something they think they should be adding back. Joe: Yeah I want to just step in and shout out that there's no question I think that preparing your business for sale is the number one thing that people don't do. They decide to sell as I say instead of planning to sell. That means they work their tail off. They launch this business. They work like crazy against all odds. They succeed. And it's producing solid revenue and profit for them. And they just burn the candle at both ends and then the candle starts to burn out. And they're emotionally tired, they're frustrated, they're exhausted, and they wake up one morning I'm just not into this. I'm going to sell. I didn't know I could sell but it just occurred to me. I'm done. I'm calling Chuck Mullins. And at that point because they're tired; because they're emotionally worn out they need to sell because trends will go down. They won't do the things that they need to do to keep the business growing and strong and in great shape for somebody else to take over. And so at that point you get those P & L's and you're like yeah Excel is not really accounting software. Ideally Quick Books and Xero or one of the other so that we can run a historical P & L and do year over year trend analysis and look at the metrics. All that is really hard and then there's the commingling. So I'm going to just mention a podcast; not ours, somebody else's. EcomCrewPodcast247. Chuck as you know I sold Mike Jackness' business ColorIt last spring. And Mike is a bright guy. Mike knew exactly what to do as most people in this audience do. They know what to do. And the mindset that Mike had was simply I'll get to it someday. What happens is you end up chasing too many rabbits and that someday comes when you get exhausted and in his case, he had four brands under one LLC and three of them were really not sellable at the time that we decide to list the business. So what does that do? You've got four brands all in one LLC, tax returns commingled, and you're only selling one brand. What does that eliminate? Chuck: SBA financing. Joe: SBA financing; exactly. Is it required to get an SBA loan? No it's not to sell a business; absolutely not. We sold multimillion-dollar businesses without an SBA loan. But what it does do is it casts a broader net; buyers. And even some of those buyers; I've had it. Have you had buyers that have more than enough money to stroke a check for a multi-million dollar business but they use SBA? Chuck: Absolutely why not leverage if you can? Joe: Yeah, so that's I'd say number one. I'm in total agreement on the documentation. We always talk about that the risk, growth, transferability, and documentation; gets your numbers right, get those P & L's in great shape and it's going to help you learn about your business and set goals and then that passion may get reignited and you may do more in the business and grow it and have a bigger exit someday down the road. It's not that I don't love it when somebody calls me and says I'd like a valuation and part of that is okay, what's your timeframe, when are you ready to sell, right now. Not that I don't mind that; I love that if everything's in great shape. It's just tougher to sell it when it's not. They get a lower value, right? Chuck: Yup, absolutely. Having those four pillars and the clean books it makes a big difference. Joe: It really does. I think I'm in total agreement. Buyers or sellers of businesses, get your documents in great shape. The best way to do that, just call, email inquiries@QuietLightBrokerage.com, Chuck@QuietLightBrokerage.com. Reach out. It's a service that we provide. I mean what do we do Chuck? We help, help, help, and then keep helping, right? Chuck: Build value. Joe: Build the value. It's my; I've got a mentor that I talked to long and hard about all my business opportunities and in this particular one as we chatted about the model and what we do here at Quiet Light he's like well it just sounds like you're giving away all your knowledge for free in hopes that maybe they'll work with you. And I' like that's exactly right. We help first and we're entrepreneurs so there are times that we wish we got good advice and we were too young to listen or there was nobody around to talk to about it. And now we share that when it comes to business values and planning an exit. The number one thing you can do is just reach out to somebody. It's free. Talk to Chuck, he's got a ton of experience. Chuck: I'll tell you kind of in my entrepreneurial days if I wasn't going to be an entrepreneur I always wanted to be a consultant and help other people. And I never had like the actual desire to go out and build a portfolio and charge people to help them grow their business. But like you said I've been do this since '96. I've met so many businesses; a lot of focus on optimization and SEO and just so many things. And one of the things I actually like about is giving unsolicited advice. So when I'm on all these valuation calls I'm constantly asking people like oh have you tried this, have you thought about this? So even if they're not ready to sell I'm often giving people advice on how to increase their business. And even when I do have listings like I think of one and particularly like I give him so many ideas and then he did those and the business just kept growing. That actually came to bite me because the business grew so much that we ended up pulling it off the market after getting multiple full-price offers because it just had grown so much and he wanted to just wait a little bit and we're going to actually getting ready to relist that here soon. Joe: It's a good problem, right? I mean I've been in situations that you say it bit you but ultimately this is a long term play for us; it's building relationships and that person respects and appreciates you obviously because he's coming back for some of your entrepreneurial life experience and it's benefited them financially. It's going to grow the business and ultimately they're going to get a bigger value and tell people about what you did. So that was a little bit more about the sellers and the things that they can do and then number one I think we both agree, plan that exit; call somebody, e-mail somebody, get a valuation. It's not going to hurt. What about buyers; biggest mistakes that buyers can make? Chuck: Disrespecting somebody's business. So getting on a call and like; I'm trying to think of a of a PC term that I could use that's not a profanity, just talking smack about somebody's business, trying to negotiate them down in price, and like trash-talking the business. That doesn't work. At least not at this size but maybe it works when you're dealing with a couple hundred million dollar business or something. I don't know. But at these levels, people care about their businesses at least the ones we sell. Inaudible[00:33:38.9] and when you talk smack like… Joe: It's personal even at the 15 to 20 million mark. Mark just closed one just under 15 million. It's owned by an individual. When you're talking about a hundred million, yes somebody is up there at the top like their shareholders and the CEOs and COOs and all that and big-time attorneys are in there negotiating. It's not you're talking to the guy across the table that actually built it and owns it for the most part, right? So he cares about it. Chuck: He worries about it like he's had the baby. I mean you wouldn't believe how many people I've talked to; sellers that cry on the phone about their business like it happens a lot. People are deeply invested emotionally in their business. When somebody comes in and disrespects it for no reason other than they're trying to negotiate, it doesn't go well. You need to be nice. That's what Mike does so well. And I want to keep talking about Mike. Well like… Joe: Should we talk about Walker again? Chuck: He's about people and he's nice. Joe: Let's talk about Walker again then. Actually you're absolutely right. I remember being at the Rhodium Weekend Conference before you were a member of the team here at Quiet Light. Now he's up presenting and talking and I could swear in that environment and I used the word that begins with an A and ends with an E; figure it out, folks. Everybody's got one. And what's the secret to being a great buyer? And I said don't be one; as simple as that. I can see you out there in the audience shaking your head up and down. And that's exactly right. Mike is very nice, very kind. When I sold my business I had people that were well I remember one, in particular, ripping my business to shreds on a conference call; initial call and I'm like why am I even talking to this guy. I'm not selling it to him even if he gives me an offer over asking. And then, strangely enough, the last call, the person that ended up buying my business first thing he said is thanks for creating such a great site. Your products have helped people exactly like me. By the way I took stuff like this and I ran the Boston Marathon actually the Chicago Marathon last month and it's because of products like yours and I said cool. It was actually a really short call; 20-minute call. I didn't ask any great questions I had going on. That was really nice but I don't see he's buying my business and he almost; he bought it almost full price offer. Chuck: I'll tell you what you just mentioned something that is often overlooked. When you get on these calls don't just wing it; do some research, educate yourself before the call, and ask the right questions. It's so important. So many times I get on a call and the seller or the buyer doesn't ask any decent questions and the seller just writes them off and says let's not take any more calls from that person. They weren't serious. So make sure that you understand the business and you're asking good questions that a good buyer would ask, right? Joe: Yeah. They don't have to be the most intelligent questions the seller has ever heard but that you've done your research and you care. I mean yeah Chuck you put there together a great package and all the great questions are in there. They just have to dig into them and digest it a little bit and ask the same question in their voice and see if you get the same or similar answer from the client on it. I think that's great. I think you're absolutely right. Too many times there has been a few buyers that they're not prepared for. You can hear them walking down the street getting in the car and it just feels like a complete and utter waste of everyone's time including the person who's making the call and asking the questions. Okay, is there anything else; before we wrap up is there anything else you'd like to say about Walker Diebel? Chuck: Visit WalkerDiebel.guru to check out his new book that's coming out in a couple of months. Joe: Let's do this; actually everybody do is too. Go to IMDB and look up Walker Diebel the actor and watch some of the movies he's been in. Add a review, let's see if we can boost that one-star rating up to one and a half. Chuck: Inaudible[00:37:37.6] tomatoes maybe. Joe: Alright Chuck, you're a good man. I appreciate you coming on. We'll wrap it up here with time. Any last thoughts for anybody out there thinking about selling their business or buying one; any last pearls of wisdom and I know I didn't prepare you but any last-minute pearls of wisdom? Chuck: Yeah. I would just say that reach out early. We're not here to be high pressure as far as trying to sign you to sell your business. We're here to lead with value. We're going to offer some hopefully some wisdom that's going to help you sell that business in the future. So don't think that like oh I don't want to reach out because I'm not going to sell it for six months or a year. Talk to us now. Let us help you get the business in shape to sell it later. Joe: Great advice. That's Chuck Mullins folks. We will be back in the next podcast. See you soon. Thanks, Chuck. Chuck: Bye-bye. Thanks. Links and Resources: Chuck Mullins Chuck's LinkedIn Walker Deibel's IMDB

christmas god google internet talk british speaking reach mom investing llc web walmart ceos pc profit seo pl wtf buyers websites best practices excel imdb penguin oftentimes booze mardi gras chucky boston marathon sba sequoia mullins ritz carlton xero tripod chicago marathon good lord business mistakes coos inaudible angelfire quiet light brokerage joe valley quiet light chris yates lincoln aviator joe it webmaster tools joe you mike jackness joe yeah andrew youderian joe let joe well chuck it centurica chuck yeah joe how joe there joe good chuck how chuck no chuck so chuck yes quiet light podcast

Are Buyers or Sellers More at Risk with Sales Tax Successor Liability?

Play Episode Listen Later Jul 10, 2019 41:48

Ignorance is not bliss when it comes to sales tax. Believe it or not, today's topic is an exciting one for all buyers and sellers. Our guest is Diane Yetter from the Sales Tax Institute and Yetter Tax. She joins us to talk to us all about sales tax, sales nexus, click through Nexus, and more. Diane is a niche entrepreneur in her own right, uniquely helping other entrepreneurs navigate the tricky waters of sales tax. Diane businesses focus exclusively on sales tax, helping companies learn what sales tax means for them and what they need to do to be in compliance with state tax laws. SalesTax Institute and Yetter Tax are educational consultancies, providing people with all the tools they need to learn the why, when, where and how of remitting sales tax for each state where they do business. Episode Highlights: What click-through nexus is. Where and how affiliate payments are made. The Wayfair decision and the resulting state actions. Physical, Economic, and Marketplace nexus. Where to find the economic guide by state. Educational tools Diane offers on her website. Are there advantages to learning how these nexus' work versus hiring someone to do it? The penalties for collecting sales tax and not remitting it. Concerns and risks in the acquisitions realm. The process each state goes through to identify sellers out there. We go over the risks to buyers if the seller has not satisfied their state economic nexus. The odds of something coming back to haunt the new owner of a business if there are unpaid nexuses. The resources the Institute provides to help listeners wade through all this. Transcription: Mark: Alright guys welcome to another episode of the Quiet Light Podcast. Real quick before I talk to Joe; if anybody out there hasn't left a rating on the Quiet Light Podcast, do me a favor go to iTunes or Stitcher or wherever you listen to us, leave a rating, we certainly appreciate it. Makes us feel good. Makes us feel like we're doing a decent job at this whole podcasting thing. So thanks in advance to everybody that has done that. Okay, so Joe, when we're talking to a potential seller or even talking to a potential buyer one of the topics that comes up often, is how long does it take to complete the deal, right? And we have people wondering am I going to get this done in three months and what have you. The fact is these businesses are complex. On the upfront summaries what we see usually is pretty plain and simple. You see revenue, you see earnings, you see a multiple, and you kind of think well this should be nice and capsid and quick. And sometimes it is. But other times you have to look a little bit deeper. And you and I have talked about this before, right? For buyers to make sure you're looking beyond the multiple and the multiple is one point of data. And for sellers and buyers alike to also have patience with the process and understand that you're selling a complex asset. I know you had Carl on the podcast who is a recent buyer of one of our properties. And it was one of those situations where the deal took longer than expected and the numbers weren't as necessarily straightforward as maybe you would think when you just look at this. But the net result for him as a buyer and for a client were phenomenal by being patient and looking a little bit deeper. Joe: Yes, no question. This particular deal took I want to say from letter of intent to closing seven and a half months which is probably the longest I've ever had. There's really specific reasons for it. And Carl is partly to blame for it because he made a mistake on his application to the SBA lender. So we had to do the process essentially twice. The seller Kevin hung in there with Carl because Carl was a nice guy. It made a difference. And at one point when the deal fell apart, we had to go back. Well, my advice was to go back out to market for an awful lot more money because the business has grown a lot; probably worth $400,000 more. Carl and Kevin got along so well that Kevin said no I don't want to do that to Carl. Let's just bump the price thousand $160,000; crazy. Most buyers would walk away. They'd be like no. Yesterday it was this price today you want $160,000 more. Carl didn't do that and he's being rewarded greatly for it right away instant equity, in my opinion, a quarter of a million dollars in the business. And then some things that he's doing on his end immediately once that first container load comes in doubling the discretionary earnings because of a focus on reducing COGS. It's just fantastic what he's doing. And it's a great lesson for buyers and sellers to be patient, to be focused on helping each other, and not looking just at that multiple. Mark: You know I love this sort of story because I get it right from a buying standpoint you're looking at a lot of deal flow you need to evaluate businesses quickly. So the temptation is often to look at just the high-level metrics and to eliminate something based on that. But so many of these businesses and if I could just say you know maybe even a plug for Quiet Light you know when we bring a business to the market we usually believe in that company pretty strongly as being a good value play for buyers. And so taking the time to kind of dissect it and to understand more than the top-level metrics and what's going on underneath and look for those opportunities for that immediate win and again looking beyond that multiple. So this is a really good story of somebody doing just that and seeing a really quick reward on that. I want to listen to this. I want to hear all the dynamics. This is one of those more complex deals and I think a really good example of what happens when the deal isn't straightforward but still works out in the end. Joe: Yeah. Hey, one other thing. I had a really strange interruption everybody in the audience I want you to get 10, 15 minutes in. Chris, our producer asked me about a particular person. I'm trying to find out who this is. If you could just get that far listen in and shoot me a note. I want to try to track that person down. Thanks, Ben. I appreciate it. Let's go to the podcast. Joe: Hey folks it's Joe from Quiet Light Brokerage and believe it or not this is an exciting topic. It is about sales tax, sales tax nexus, click-through nexus; a term I had not heard until today. Our guest is Diane Yetter or she's from the Sales Tax Institute. So let me try that again. She's from the Sales Tax Institute, see being a podcaster is not as easy as it sounds. She's also from Yetter Tax; both all hers. Diane, welcome to the Quiet Light Podcast. Diane: Thanks, Joe. I'm glad to be here with you. Joe: Alright, so that I don't stutter and stumble my way through trying to tell people what you do, why don't you help us out with that? Diane: Sure. What we do is we are a business that focuses exclusively on sales tax. And we help companies learn what sales tax means to them. So we are primarily an education business. And then we also help them understand what they need to do to be in compliance with sales tax. So we do that through helping them understand where they have nexus, what's taxable that they buy and sell, help them get appropriate systems set up so that they can handle that correctly, and then in the hopefully not event that they get audited we can help them with that. So we do that through our consulting side. And then we also provide a variety of educational courses through our Sales Tax Institute. Joe: And it's good stuff. I just looked at some videos this morning and I've learned a bit already just in your free snippets online. And let's just throw out one of those things because I'm sure the vast majority of listeners have not heard of and I'm going to look at my notes click-through nexus. Let's just give them something that they don't know about right away before we reinforce what they should know about which is overall nexus and collecting sales taxes and the risks of not and the rewards of collecting when they go to sell their business someday. So why don't you just tell us what click-through nexus is, please? Diane: Sure. Click-through nexus is a concept that New York started in 2008. And it's really just the attempt to move to a digital equivalent of paying salesman commissions which was found to be constitutional back in a case against Crypto Corporation in about 1960. And so what click-through nexus is is when a promoter or a seller and this really was intended to go after Amazon. Back in the day when all Amazon sold was books and people like you, Joe, if you wrote a book and you put a link on your website that referred people to Amazon to go buy your book that you would then get paid a commission; a referral fee or making that referral to Amazon. So Amazon was the seller. You were not. They paid you for sending somebody to them. Really no different than a salesman going around and knocking on a door and when they made a sale they would get a commission. And so what New York started and about 25 other states followed along over the years is that paying that commission to somebody in a state if they generated at least a certain amount of sales. Most states had $10,000 of sales from one or more commissioned agents that that created nexus for the out-of-state seller in this example Amazon. Joe: Yeah. And it's a term I hadn't heard of before. I'm impressed if the state of New York actually originally called it click-through nexus back in 2008. Just curious do you know if they call it something else then and have [inaudible 00:09:09.2] click-through nexus? Diane: Well what it was affectionately or unaffectionately referred to by the media was the Amazon Tax. Joe: The Amazon Tax, okay. So most people look at nexus says okay I'm selling a physical product I've got a warehouse or Amazon has a warehouse in how many different states that's where my nexus is. What this is it's for the content sellers, it's for the affiliate marketers, it's for people that are doing product reviews where you don't actually have a physical presence. You don't have the—I'm sorry, the physical product. You're writing content, you're telling the story, you're doing reviews, and somebody in Hawaii—no I'm sorry, if you're in Hawaii and you write the content and somebody buys it in Minneapolis and there's no call center, there's no physical—I'm totally screwing this up, and there's no physical warehouse there, does that mean that you've got to collect sales taxes from that person that bought it or on that sale in Minneapolis? Diane: So what it applies to is if the seller; so in this case, if you are not the seller of the content that you're just the person promoting the content for somebody else that's selling it. Joe: The person that owns the physical product [crosstalk 00:10:24.5] sales taxes. Diane: The person that owns the physical product is the one that would need to collect the tax if they make payments to you as the promoter of it. Joe: Okay, so if anyone listening sells a brand on Amazon and also chose to do the affiliate program through Amazon and is allowing others to sell that product click-through. You should be collecting nexus wherever those sales. Is it—I'm sorry it's not where those sales occur or is it where that person that wrote the blog is? Diane: It is supposed to be a combination of those two. However, that's often difficult to ascertain as to whether or not that affiliate payment generated the sale in that state. And so it really is going after where the affiliate payment is made to. Joe: I got you. Okay, we may need title this to stumble through podcasts because sales taxes are crazy and there's so much information and misinformation. And is it really gray or is it all black and white conversations going out there that I think just the more we talk about the more we'll learn about it. So let's talk about the big Wayfair decision and what has come from that. Can you touch on that; what it was and the end result of for sales tax collection? Diane: Sure. So the confusion that we just talked about with the click-through nexus actually is almost kind of going away because of the Wayfair decision and the resulting state actions. So last June 21st; so close to a year ago, the U.S. Supreme Court issued their long-awaited decision in South Dakota v. Wayfair which was a record-breaking case in terms of how fast it got to the Supreme Court. The original law was only effective in May of 2016. So for a law to be in essence validated and decided by the Supreme Court in just over two years is pretty amazing. But basically what the case was a test and when South Dakota passed their law they wrote it in such a way that they were in violation of the longstanding Supreme Court decisions and Quill Corporation and National Bellas Hess as well as the Commerce Clause. And so what the Commerce Clause said is that a state cannot impose a tax collection responsibility on an out-of-state seller unless they have a substantial presence in the state. Now what the Quill case and the National Bellas Hess case over the last 50 years had interpreted is they added a word into that Commerce Clause test. They said substantial physical presence. What the Wayfair court determined was that physical was never a word in the Commerce Clause and that the state or the prior courts had simply interpreted it to require that physical presence. So by their decision where they actually stated that their decision in Quill was wrong; and they actually said that in the decision, they were overturning that Quill decision. By doing that they said physical presence is no longer a requirement before a state can impose a collection responsibility on an out-of-state business. Rather it needs to have a substantial presence. The company has to have a substantial presence in the state. And the South Dakota law defines substantial presence as having more than $100,000 of sales or more than 200 sale transactions which we define as an invoice into the state. And so that is— Joe: Does this make nexus defined as having a 3PL or Amazon having a warehouse, does this make nexus go away and it flips to what you're talking about now? Diane: It does not. Physical presence is still the first test that needs to be identified. So if there is an Amazon warehouse and you have inventory if you're an FBA seller then the economic nexus really doesn't matter. And the thresholds that are set in the states with the economic nexus are not relevant because of the physical presence of the inventory in the warehouse. Joe: Okay but if there's no physical nexus it then flips to economic nexus. Diane: Correct. Joe: Okay, and how many states currently have adopted the economic nexus? Diane: So we have almost all; every state has either enacted it and it's effective, enacted it and it will be effective. The latest one we have going effective I believe is July 1 right now, we've got some October ones that are in propose. And we've got I think its six states left that are in proposed status right now. The only one that has rescinded and doesn't look like it will pass this year is the state of Florida. Joe: God I love the state of Florida. Diane: Right. Joe: Where on your site and which sites; Sales Tax Institute or Yetter Tax can someone go right now and figure out which states have economic nexus? Do you have something like that? Diane: We absolutely do. So you can go to SalesTaxInstitute.com and then go to our resources section and on that, you'll see a link to the remote seller nexus chart. And on that there are; that page will have all of the different types of remote seller nexus. So the click-through we talked about, affiliate, marketplace, economic, and the notice and reporting. There will also be a link on their specific economic nexus state guide which will give you all of the various different nuances of the rules for economic nexus. Joe: Look at that you've even got a video in there as well. Fantastic. Okay, part of what you do at the Sales Tax Institute is education. You're training people to understand and learn about sales taxes. Are these a combination of in-person training or is it online training as well? Diane: So we do a variety of different types of training. We have monthly webinars that are live in-person or live webinars where you can actually interact with me and ask me live questions. So we have a variety of different topics that you can look at. Joe: Is there a cost to the webinars? Diane: There is. Those cost $175 but you can have your entire team gathered around one phone line and it's a single charge. Joe: And you'll sleep better that night or maybe not at all depending on really. Diane: Exactly. Joe: When I was looking at your some of the videos I wrote down is ignorance bliss?? And I think it's not when it comes to sales taxes. And we'll get into that a little bit more but—alright so there's a monthly webinar; very, very reasonable price. Diane: A monthly live webinar, we also have some on-demand webinars, and one of the ones that might be very helpful to those of you listening now is we have a sales tax 101 webinar. And so that's on-demand. The cost of that is also $175 but you can watch it as many times as you want in 30 days. And that will go through and give you all the basic concepts and it was updated after the Wayfair decision so it's got a lot of the current information about what's going on today. So we've got I think it's five on-demands and then we also have live in-person classes. So we have a three-day basics of sales tax class if you really need to get in depth. That's held in June annually and then we have; it is usually in Chicago. Joe: Okay. Diane: And then our advanced workshop is for people with four or more years of experience and that is held annually in the April-May. We just had that this year in Chicago and next year we'll be out on the West Coast. We also have a; we've offered it twice now, a nine-week online class. We call it sales tax jumpstart. So we will offer that again in September. Exact date not yet defined. And that is really meant and who a lot of our attendees have been in our first two cohorts of that are people that are like your listeners Joe that are smaller businesses, can't get away for three full days of sales tax, and we give them basically all the steps and tools for what they need to do to be compliant. So we break it down into two-hour blocks over nine weeks. And we also share with them a lot of the tools we use in advising our clients. So we try to help them be more self-sufficient. Joe: You know it's interesting as you're talking I know that we're sharing your URL. I mean we're 15 minutes into the podcast and we normally don't pitch and promote the people that are on. It's not about that it's about education. But I think that this is education that you can't listen to it; this podcast and understand everything about sales taxes. So I think I'm having Diane's share this folks early because this information is so complex and so in-depth and changing on a monthly basis because new states are enacting the economic nexus and you need to have some sort of downloadable chart to understand it. Or better yet Diane what we do here often is tell people to outsource. Like you can do the bookkeeping yourself but you're probably a marketer so focus on marketing and outsource the bookkeeping. Yeah, there's legal stuff you've got to do for your business, don't hire an attorney and bring them in-house so you'd outsource that. Why in the world does an entrepreneur that's running a small business with let's say a staff of six need to go through the Sales Tax Institute and learn all of these things themselves when they can hire a company just to do it all for them. I know you don't do that; you train, you educate, you consult. Why not just hire a company to do it all? Again is that a little bit of ignorance is bliss you still have to know it or can you just hire one of these firms that we hear about that will help you set it up and collect and pay the states, what to do and you just don't worry about it. Is that a fantasy? Diane: It's not exactly. You could certainly hire. There are a couple of different things that you need to do. If you're selling on a marketplace platform there are less requirements that you need to worry about and that is because the actual tax calculation is going to be handled by the marketplace. Joe: Let's call the marketplace Amazon. Is that Amazon is going to collect them? Diane: Amazon is the marketplace; correct. If you're selling on Amazon you don't need to acquire software to calculate the tax because Amazon is calculating the tax on that order. Now Amazon is going to send you the data and the financial dollars that they collect in the sales tax. In some of the states, you are going to have to prepare the sales tax return and remit that tax directly to the state. Now the trend that we're seeing in 2019 is states are saying you know what we're going to remove the burden to the sellers that sell on marketplaces and put that tax collection and remittance responsibility on the marketplaces. And so we've got a vast number of states that already have enacted that legislation. And we've got a large number of states that have it still proposed this year. We call this our marketplace nexus on our charts. And so what we're assuming is that—I think there's only five or six states that don't have any legislation proposed to this year or passed yet. And the rest of them are really moving towards saying we're going to remove that burden. Joe: Okay I just want to say. I love that. I love all in capital letters marketplace nexus because that takes the burden out of the hand of the entrepreneur, right? I mean they're just— Diane: It does as long as they are only selling on a marketplace. Joe: Right. Diane: I think what we find is a lot of the sellers that sell on marketplaces also have their own website. Joe: They should. In my opinion, it'll bring a higher value. The problem is that Amazon is growing at such a pace. There are more businesses that used to be 75% let's say Shopify, 25%t Amazon and now it's flipped. Diane: Right. Joe: That will level out over time I'm sure. But yeah let's talk about that. So somebody that is selling on third-party marketplaces but they've also got an Amazon store—I mean their own website, even if they're only selling 5% of their total revenues. Diane: Correct. So where it gets challenging is most of the states require you to include the sales on the marketplaces along with your direct sales in determining whether or not you exceed the threshold to determine if you have substantial taxes. With most states its $100,000 of sales or 200 transactions. So if you're very successful on Amazon and only selling maybe 5 to 20% of your sales are on your own website then you still may exceed those thresholds. And now you do need to have some sort of solution in your direct sales to calculate the tax and then you'll have the responsibility for remitting it. So yes there are companies that sell software that can integrate with your e-commerce platform. Some of the e-commerce platforms have some of the software baked in so to speak so that you don't have to separately license it. Joe: Which ones have that baked in? Diane: So Shopify Plus has a baked-in version of Avalara. Magento I think has some baked in of either Avalara or [inaudible 00:23:58.2] depending upon the version that you're on but others you may have to pay a license fee for that calculation side. The second piece of it is once you calculate and collect the tax you need to remit that tax to the various different tax authorities. Those software companies also could do that for you as an outsource, your bookkeeper may be able to do that for you, and there are also other firms that we work with that are just sales tax outsourcing compliance, providers. My firm doesn't do that but we do work with other firms that do. Joe: Do you have references for those firms on your website? Diane: We do. Joe: Okay. Diane: We got those on our website. Joe: So what would happen if somebody signs up for Shopify plus they collect all this money and they don't properly set up the remittance or the payment to the states? How long is it going to take for the states to figure out and what are they going to do? Diane: Well collecting tax and not remitting it is about the worst thing you can do. Joe: Can we call that a crime? Diane: It actually is criminal fraud. It will earn you an orange jumpsuit. Joe: It is the new black so that's— Diane: It is the new black. You're right. Joe: Thank you. I have to say it. Sorry, everyone. Diane: You had to. Everybody does. So just as you never want to be withholding income taxes from your employee's paychecks and not turn those over to the government collecting sales tax and not remitting it is at that same level. Sales taxes when you collected are considered trust taxes. So you need to make sure that you are remitting the tax that you collect. How quickly will the state find you? That really depends. Often it can happen because an auditor bought something from you and then doesn't see you registered. Or it could be a customer that complains. Joe: That could just be bad luck. Do the right thing folks; do the right thing. Ignorance is definitely not bliss. Let's talk about this a little bit. We're 20 minutes in let's get to the meat of what—say potential buyers and potential sellers are concerned about with both marketplace nexus and economic nexus know, right? Alright, I'm going to just redefine the economic nexus. I get that's when you hit a certain threshold. What's the first nexus? Oh, it's physical nexus. Diane: Physical; correct. Joe: Alright. So yeah this is the stumble through podcast. I'm going to rename it all. Okay, so we've got a business for sale. They've done four million dollars in revenue in the last 12 months. Let's just say they're keeping 20% so the profits are $800,000. The business is for sale for three and a half, four-time multiple and they get three point two million dollars. And let's say that they've been around for five years. They're selling on third-party marketplaces at this point it's probably that 75% there and 25% elsewhere on their own Shopify store, Zulily whatever the case might be. If they're only collecting sales taxes where they have physical nexus and in their own home state and I buy the business; it's an asset sale, not a stock sale. Diane: Right. Joe: What's the risk to me if any? Diane: So I think the first thing is if they're actually collecting in all of the states who have physical presence; so where they've got inventory sitting in an Amazon warehouse they're steps ahead because that's where we're finding a lot of the risk is that these Amazon sellers are not collecting in the states where there is inventory in the warehouse. So if the only risk that they have are the states where there was economic nexus past which the earliest the state goes back on any of that for all practical purposes we have a couple of outliers is June 21st which is the date of the decision 2018 with New York. We've got Massachusetts and Ohio that go back a little bit further because they have something just to add a little bit more confusion to it Joe that's referred to as cookie nexus which is a digital present. So if you drop cookies which every Amazon seller is dropping cookies on their visitor's websites—on their devices so that they can track them. That was deemed to be a physical presence in both Ohio and Massachusetts so they go back a little bit further. Let's take those guys out. Joe: Okay. Diane: So if we're saying today we're selling our business we've been registered in all of my Amazon warehouse states and I've just got economic nexus going back almost a year. And if I haven't been registered in those states then there is a risk although we think that it's probably not a great risk if it is just the economic nexus. Okay? Average sales tax rate across the country is somewhere between 8 ½, 9% is the average rate. Of course, we've got some lower and we've got some higher. And so your risk is not 8 ½% of your profit but 8% of your gross sales. And so it's 8 ½% of—let's say 25% of your 4 million is in economic only nexus, 8 ½% of your million for the last year of sales. Joe: And then you've got to further divide it up into—you've got to hit that economic nexus in those individual states. And with where you've got the physical nexus we're going to count that money and see if we hit that average $100,000 threshold or 200 transactions. It's very complex. Almost to the point where it makes me wonder if that state employee in the sales tax division making whatever they make really cares and is going to dig deep to try to find you that sold a widget after you've sold all the assets of your business. What is the process the state goes through to identify people that are selling products that didn't collect sales taxes properly? Diane: So just as probably most of the sellers listening to this podcast are using data analytics to figure out what should they price their products at, what is a hot product to sell, the states are starting to use data analytics and advanced methods to identify sellers. They've also used methods including subpoenaing; their subpoena power to go to Amazon and ask for the list of the sellers in their states. So we've seen I think about eight or nine states that have done that including New York and Connecticut and North Carolina, Wisconsin, California, Washington. So those are some of the states that have actually gotten that list of those sellers. And we know sellers have gotten those letters from those states saying we think you should be registered. Joe: Okay, they can figure it out is essentially what we're trying to say here. Let's talk about the risk to the—you said the risk to the seller it's still minimum if you've been collecting where you have physical nexus. So great that's the minimum. Well, what about the person that buys the business? And I'm going to try to say this in simple terms and you tell me, correct me, or lead me back on the right path here. Diane: Okay. Joe: Let's say I bought a business. I buy that business for three million dollars and it turns out that you; the seller didn't collect and pay on all the economic nexus that you may have had during your ownership and a few states figure this out and they go after you; your corporation. They're going to go after Diane's brand LLC. First, they're going to try to go after the state after you and if it's an empty—well if the LLC is an empty shell if you ever pierce that LLC by running personal stuff with a business they can then go after you personally for that. And then if you can't pay it on either of those things you're going to go okay well the assets are still being sold, the brand is still out there. I wonder who bought it. Let's go after them. Is that the right path and can they get all the way through to me if they first go after your LLC, can't get money out of the LLC, it's an empty shell or you closed it, okay fine they go after you because you pierced that corporate shell at one point, you're bankrupt, you've got nothing. Can they go after me and if so what's the real risk to me the buyer? Diane: They can and to clarify just a couple of things. Even without doing anything to pierce the LLC all the states have provisions that allow them to go after the officers, the owners, or responsible parties whether the business has been closed down or not. Joe: But everything else was I generally on the right path there in terms of the way it would work? Diane: Correct. They can and there is also provisions that they have that are called successor liabilities. So that means that if they sell the business then they can go after the seller—I'm sorry after the buyer. Joe: Let's just put a point of clarification on that successor liability, you said sell the business. These are assets sales for the most part. They're buying the assets of the business, not the entity itself. Does that successor liability carry through in that case? Diane: It does. Joe: Okay, are they going to go to that successor first or is that going to be the last resort? Diane: It depends on the state and it also can depend on whether or not the rules were followed. Most of the states have something called a bulk sale notification requirement that applies on the sale of bulk assets. So this is not typically required on a stock deal but it is required on an asset deal. And so if you sell those assets there is a requirement that the state be put on notice that that is happening so that they can do a couple of different things. One they now know that this transaction is occurring. In some states, there might actually be a tax on the transaction itself. The second thing is that it gives the state the opportunity to give what's called the tax clearance certificate. So if they've recently done an audit let's say of the seller they can tell the buyer this is all clear. If there hasn't been a sale made or if God forbid the company has not been registered in the state then they can provide information to the buyer in terms of an amount to put into escrow and withhold from the purchase price. Joe: Again though I'm trying to just visualize how that heck the state is going to do this. I buy the assets of the business. It's Diane's brand. I go to the state of North Carolina to get a tax clearance certificate or—no that's for the past is that right? Diane: Correct. Joe: So I want to start collecting sales taxes on my newly formed corporation for Diane's brands. Diane: Correct. Joe: And I do that there's going to—and I actually think I know the answer here. I was going to say how the heck is the state going to know that they were everest passed sales. Diane: Right. Joe: There's a questionnaire that I have to answer that have there been past sales. A few things, I mean I've heard some people just say no or whatever, people in authority, people that are experts like you, I've seen attorneys on this bulk sale notification go yeah no we're not doing that. Are these people just flat out wrong or is it—look the key thing here is risk. I think what I'm trying to help people understand and I need you to throw out numbers for me. I'm trying to understand the odds because that's what these sellers and buyers are going to look at because you can't change the past. You can't change what you did four years ago in terms of sales tax collection. In some case, you don't have to because economic nexus didn't exist back then. But what are the odds of this carrying through in this scenario? Again I'm buying your brand. You've been around. You sold four million bucks in the last 12 months. And I know you can't do this everybody calls labor the legend and I remember just after college I was at a temp agency trying to get a job and had to take a typing test. Diane: Yes. Joe: And I did it. And I was terrible. Terrible was like 82% accuracy at the time and the guy tells me it was. But I'm like what are you talking about. Like Larry Bird shot 66% from the free throw line and he was a legend. That actually got me the job nothing else; my expertise and anything else nothing. But Larry the Legend got me the odds, percentages; that's what people want to know. So I'm buying it. How much—is this going to keep me up at night or is there like a five or 10% risk here that some of this may carry through? Diane: So I think it depends on a couple of factors. So I hate to give you a fudged answer but here's a couple. Joe: I have to put you on the spot. We are recording. Diane: Yeah. So here's a couple of things that come into play. If the only nexus is economic I think the risk is fairly low. If you have been an FBA seller you've got inventory in the state and you haven't been collecting. I think that risk is significantly higher because there is now ways that the states are getting that information. Joe: Fairly low is 3% is that what you're talking? Diane: I would say transactions happening within the first year, we're saying it's probably—you know will the state come after somebody for economic less than 20% chance. Joe: Okay but first I bought your brand; first I'm going to go after you. First, they're going to go after your LLC then they're going to go after you. If they can't get money from either of those then they're going to come after me. So is that 20% on me or is it 20% first to you and then you're all saying— Diane: I think it's about 20% that they're going to go and find that an economic seller did not register when they should have; an economic nexus seller. Joe: And unless you're bankrupt they're going to take money from you first. Diane: Correct. Joe: And how do they get that money? Diane: They will do an audit. So they will look at your books for reference and then they will calculate an assessment. Joe: And if you can't write them a check you're going to work out a payment program. Diane: Correct. Joe: They are attorneys that can negotiate that down. Diane: Correct. Joe: All that still applies? Diane: Yup that would still apply. Joe: Okay, so economic nexus pretty low. Diane: Correct. Joe: Physical nexus fairly high but again even though their sell-through nexus—is that what you call it? There's so many different nexus here. The physical first; they're going to go after you first. The buyers here the concern should be fairly low unless the seller of the business is ultimately going to be filing for bankruptcy and there's no money there, right? Diane: Correct. And how you would get caught as you said when you're filling out your registration application for your business because now you're going to be compliant. One of the questions that is on there is did you buy this business from anybody else. And that's on I think virtually every state application. And that's how it would be identified. Now if you choose to leave that blank the applications are signed under penalty of perjury. Although I have never seen a state actually pursue perjury charges on somebody that answered the questionnaire incorrectly; I got to advise you that that's what it says. Joe: Sure. Okay, and we are 35 minutes in and generally we want to keep this short. Honestly, I feel like I could talk to you about this for another 35 minutes but I don't dare because the listeners would just drop right off a cliff. So Sales Tax Institute, Yetter Tax, what resources; we talked about them at the beginning and I was writing down—I can't even read my own notes, what resources are you making available on the length that we're providing. You're giving us a link on the QoP podcast so we know it's there and you're providing some specific resources for anybody listening. What are those? Diane: Correct. So we're going to make it easy for your listeners Joe. We're going to give you a specific link, SalesTaxInstitute.com/quiet-light-podcast and we're going to load all of these great resources that we talked about right there so it'll be one place that your listeners can go to. And on there we're going to give them the ability to download our white paper that talks all about these different kinds of nexuses and what you need to do. We're going to give them the link to what we call our remote seller nexus chart which will include all the different types of nexus; click-through affiliate which is common ownership and agencies doing things on your behalf, the economic nexus, the marketplace nexus, and the one that we didn't have time to get into which is the awful notice and reporting which is when you don't collect tax. So that chart will be on there. We're going to have a chart for the economic nexus which is all the states and the different thresholds by state, their actual effective dates, what dollars do you include in doing that threshold calculation. We're going to give you a link to one of our greatest FAQs about what is nexus that has a little video about all of those nexus types explaining what they are. And then we also offer a service called our Wayfair Risk Analysis. We can take your data and go through and do the analysis to figure out what your risk is as well as where should you be right. Joe: I love that. I hate that we're at the end of the podcast for that part of it because a lot of people just want to have this done for them. So you can do a risk analysis as part of— Diane: Absolutely. Joe: And do they—is that through Yetter Tax or the Sales Tax; since it'd actually to be through the link but look people listen and then they type it in. So if they go to is it Yetter Tax would they be able to figure out that analysis? Diane: The easiest thing to do is go to the SalesTaxInstitute.com and then click on the consultation button. Joe: I got it. Diane: Then you will see a link to our Wayfair Risk Analysis there. Joe: Alright, Diane you know your stuff. You are a sales tax nerd. I see it. I'm not insulting you. I see that on your Twitter handle. Thank you for being such a nerd and understanding this and sharing the knowledge with everyone here. Ignorance is not bliss. Learn about sales taxes because if you don't it's going to come up and bite you somewhere unpleasant and that's in your wallet. Thank you for your time, Diane. I greatly appreciate it. Diane: Thank you, Joe. It's been a pleasure. Links and Resources: https://www.salestaxinstitute.com/quiet-light-podcast https://www.salestaxinstitute.com http://www.yettertax.com/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/dianeyetter https://twitter.com/yettertax?lang=en Economic Nexus State Guide: https://www.salestaxinstitute.com/resources/economic-nexus-state-guide Remote Seller Chart: https://www.salestaxinstitute.com/resources/remote-seller-nexus-chart Wayfair Risk Analysis: https://www.salestaxinstitute.com/wayfair-risk-analysis Sales Tax Software Vendors: https://www.salestaxinstitute.com/resources/tax-software FAQ: What do I need to know about the Wayfair Case and Economic Nexus?: https://www.salestaxinstitute.com/sales_tax_faqs/wayfair-economic-nexus FAQ: What is nexus? : https://www.salestaxinstitute.com/sales_tax_faqs/what_is_nexus Whitepaper: Nexus after Wayfair – What you need to Know: https://www.salestaxinstitute.com/resources/five-things-to-understand-nexus-whitepaper Sales Tax 101 On-Demand Webinar: https://www.salestaxinstitute.com/sales-tax-education/sales-tax-101-on-demand-webinar Sales Tax Jumpstart Live Online Class: https://www.salestaxinstitute.com/sales-tax-education/sales-tax-jumpstart Consulting Service: http://www.yettertax.com/about-us-services/

Acquisition and Transition: 18 Month Update

Play Episode Listen Later May 7, 2019 29:05

For our first entrepreneur acquisition update episode, we are speaking to Nathan Singh, a buyer who made a purchase through Quiet Light eighteen months back. Nathan is a great example of how a buyer can get a good deal and beat out other buyers just by being personable and investing in the seller. It turns out that it's not always the person who has an all-cash offer on the table that wins the deal. Having a Nathan was more appealing and likable to the seller, won out on a deal, and today we are hearing all about how the acquisition transition has gone for him. Episode Highlights: Nathan tells us all about the two WordPress plugins he bought and what each does. Any regrets regarding the multiple and the use of an SBA loan for the transaction. The company growth rate and any challenges Nathan's faced. Where the growth has come in and what he attributes that growth to. Staff retention and how the transition is going within the staff since the original transition period. Nathan's tips for an easier transition. The importance of involving the customer in order to create a relevant product road map. The biggest challenges and successes of the businesses. Things Nathan has implemented to ignite that growth. Way's Nathan keeps his relaxed disposition. Growth Goals for the next 12-24 months. Nathan's 3P's advice to entrepreneurs looking to strike out and acquire a business. Transcription: Mark: Joe, about a year ago you had Nathan Singh on the podcast. Nathan was a really good example of how a buyer can get a good deal, beat out buyers that maybe have a little bit of a stronger position with their offer or if they're a cash buyer just by being kind and generous and investing more importantly in the person that's selling the business. And I guess it's time for an update from him. Joe: Yeah, Nathan did a great job. His seller was Syed Balkhi. He owns Opt-In Monster. That's not the one we sold but we sold two of his WordPress plugin sites which are essentially SaaS businesses and Nathan beat out a full priced all cash buyer with a full price SBA deal where Syed agreed to carry a 10% seller note which was pretty substantial based upon the size of the business. And it's a story I've told often in the different events that we go to and here on the podcast so sorry for folks hearing it. I'm repeating it but yeah the first podcast we did with Nathan was all about that and the transition and training and things of that nature and we're doing an update. I think this is probably our first entrepreneur acquisition update. And he talks about what it's been like for the last 12 months; some of the wins, some of the losses, some of the challenges, the team and things of that nature. It's a great episode to see what people have done. I think really probably more like 18 months later. I think we sold it to Nathan in the fall of '17. Mark: Yeah, I get asked all the time like do you guys follow up with people that have bought these sites and what does it look like a little bit after. And frankly, we don't do enough update follow up with people who have bought so this is good. I'm glad that we are doing this with somebody we're doing on the podcast live so that people can actually hear how the acquisition has gone a year and a half later. Let's get right into it I want to hear from Nathan. Joe: One more thing I want to just shout out a reminder this new intro that we have, we've got some movie quotes in there. If you can figure out what the movie quote is for the intro go back and rewind, listen to it, put it down in the show notes and we'll give a call out to you in the next episode. Joe: Hey, folks Joe Valley here from Quiet Light Brokerage and today we have our first ever Quiet Light update or acquisition update. We've got Nathan Singh on the podcast; Nathan, welcome. Nathan: Hey Joe. Joe: Good to be back, good to have you back man. I tell your story often. I share the story that it's not always the person who has an all cash full price offer that wins the deal and that being likable is one of those intangible very, very important factors. And for those that didn't listen to the podcast that we did with Nathan, he … I want to say won a deal where someone was bringing all cash to the table at a full price deal and Nathan came to the table just being more likable. He happened to go to the same school as the seller Syed Balkhi. I know it's the Gators, is that … wait a second, hold on, I'm going to put on the hat because I have it. I have it. There it is. Nathan: There you go. That's the right one. Joe: And I didn't plan this I just happened to have the hat up in the cabin. It's been there since fall of 2017. So it's … I'm going to get it wrong and Syed he should … he sighed so loudly when I got it wrong. Is it Florida State? Nathan: No, I would have sighed again, real loudly. Yes, University of Florida. Joe: I'm sorry. Nathan: [inaudible 00:04:41.8] Joe: There it is. There was obviously a quick connection between you and Syed on the conference calls because you both went to Florida State. Nathan: University of Florida, not Florida State. Joe: Okay. Folks, obviously I don't pay attention to schools in Florida. I'm from the Northeast originally and we don't follow our college teams at all. Now for those watching the video, my hair looks great. Okay, I just took the hat off. You connected with him on the school but you also connected with him in terms of the way that you wanted to keep the staff in place and take care of them and that it becomes a family or an extended family. And that just really resonated with him and he didn't want to call the end with you whereas the all cash buyer it was all about the fact that he was all cash he could do a quick close and these types of things but it was a little rough around the edges. Syed believed in you, trusted in you, and actually took an SBA deal where he had to not be all cash, he got 90% and so he carried a pretty substantial seller note that won't be paid in full for … I don't remember the exact terms of the deal but probably a balloon payment in year five along those lines. Does that sound about right? Nathan: Yeah. Joe: Alright. So you bought Soliloquy and Envira Gallery. Can you tell the audience a little bit about both of those businesses and what they're all about and what they do? Nathan: Yeah sure. So both of those businesses are pretty similar in the sense that they are WordPress plugins. Envira Gallery is basically a gallery plugin. That's a really simplified way to put it but it's really a photo management system. And if you Google best WordPress gallery plugins you're probably going to see that in just about every result you see. Soliloquy same deal. It's a slider plugin. Essentially if you've ever seen sliding pictures and things like that in PDFs and videos that's what Soliloquy does. But essentially it just makes developers and designers lives a lot easier when they're developing this sort of thing. That's not something they really want to get into so it just streamlines the whole process. The whole gallery management system is there. And it can display multiple galleries in pictures and sliders in a very professional way. And especially for photographers, that's a big deal. And that's what Envira Gallery does. Joe: Did you have a lot of experience, direct experience in WordPress and plugins and things of that nature before buying the business? Nathan: Not at all. At least some people actually have worked in WordPress to some extent whether they've blogged or … I've had very minimal. I've looked at the backend years ago at one point I'm like no way. So WordPress has come a long way since then. A lot of people who have … who used WordPress and have been keeping abreast of that news, Gutenberg came out, what it did is essentially went straight for the head of Wix and Shopify and some of the really easy to use platforms for building websites. So Gutenberg is that which is a WordPress site builder. It's built in. It's made by WordPress. So that's the main thing for all users, now you can get in the backend. It makes it a lot easier. But no previous to that I was pretty new to it. I didn't really understand the dynamics and the market but the only thing that I had that was slightly close to that is I developed an app before in iOS. And so it was again it was being a part of this community and having some community standards when you have plugins that are uploaded to the depository. Joe: Okay. So you were an entrepreneur. You did sell a business. I sold it for you prior to buying this one but no WordPress experience. You bought it … this business with an SBA loan and it paid a what I would say is a fair multiple. A lot of folks might say I think it's strong. I won't say it. You're welcome to say if you want to. But do you have any regrets in terms of the multiple and the use of an SBA loan in the purchase of this business? Nathan: No I don't think so. Regarding the multiple, we did pay a strong multiple. I knew that going in but I also knew going in … I've gone through hundreds of business over the past few years, I talked to owner things like that. In order to get those businesses kind of like with Envira Gallery and Soliloquy where the churn was pretty good … it's essentially a SaaS business. It's been well maintained. It comes from a good pedigree by way of Syed Balkhi. So all those things played a huge part in me wanting to go ahead and stretch what I was looking to do in that multiple. But on the same end when you're doing an SBA it made that decision a whole lot easier as well. So given the SBA process, I mean I've talked about that in the last podcast that we did as well it was … it's come a long way. And so for me having gone through the trenches and years and years of trying to get SBA loans for businesses with no assets and getting to that point and seeing it streamlined with a guy like Stephen Speer and kind of what Bank United did, it's just … I mean it was like a dream to go through that really quickly. But yeah I mean we're here year later and I don't regret it. The only thing I will say that I kind of … was a thing I didn't sort of anticipate is how quickly the interest rate did change. And it does change year after year but it wasn't so drastic that it affected the business in any way. But it did increase just a bit there so. Joe: Your loan had a variable interest rate. Nathan: I think it was more as a result to the Fed increasing. Joe: Okay. Nathan: It was something that I was aware of but it was just political things happened and it increased a little bit there. Joe: Okay. Alright so why don't you tell us how things are going? Are you seeing the business … what, we closed in the fall of 2017 so it's been a little over 18 months, have you seen the business grow? Are you challenged by anything or is it growing year over year at this point? Nathan: Yes, so it is growing. It's a pretty healthy double digit growth. Joe: Double digit growth, okay. Nathan: So no complaints there. Challenges are really again coming and yeah I've been pretty much like industry agnostic every business I got into. Like I usually know nothing about it and I prefer it that way in some cases. And so coming in and learning it I've been attending the Word Camp. I went to Word Camp in US. I went to Word Camp Miami and really connecting with the people that are shaping where WordPress is going. And just some quick stats for people that like numbers, WordPress was around like 25% or so in all the websites in the world pretty much and now they're around 33 or 35% and that's continuing to grow. And just about every major web site that you probably visit is on WordPress. So the fact that that market share is growing there's … that's helped a lot with the organic growth as well. Joe: Is that US growth or a combination of US and international? Nathan: I think it's a combination of both it's like it's used in the world but definitely United States I think that WordPress has a pretty solid share there. Joe: You know it's interesting that's not something that we zeroed in on in the client interview with Syed in terms of WordPress growth. Is it something you thought about prior to and during due diligence prior to the LOI and due diligence or is it just worked out that way that you bought essentially a SaaS business on a platform that is growing? Nathan: Yeah, I think it was a little bit of both. So I understood that WordPress was … at that time the numbers haven't been released. The numbers are officially sold on Word Camp US or just before. So the actual numbers I didn't really know at what rate it was growing but I did know that just the nature of the open source WordPress community, the fact that they're building a bond and we talked about … a little about Gutenberg during the acquisition as well but just having seeing the route that they were going in relation to all these other paid sites, and what the paid platforms did to me it made sense that WordPress is going to continue to grow. It's got a foundation to expand on and so it did play a little … not a significant amount in terms of the actual business acquisition. Joe: Excellent. One of the big reasons why you and Syed are working together now was that you were going to bring the staff over, keep everybody involved and you worked remotely from a home office whereas everybody else I think does as well. How has that transition worked out in terms of the staff and you and are you still working together? Nathan: Yeah, great. Yeah, it's been great so we talked a little bit about this again in that previous interview but there was kind of a bumpy ride with the staff. Again full time they've been with the previous company for several years and they were part of a larger outfit. So there were some worry there that it's just going to be us, essentially four folks transferring over to a completely new owner; my smaller company, how is that all going to work out? I think that just … it was a trust thing and I think after a couple of weeks that they saw that I was in the trenches with them and I was really working to make their lives easier, making sure they're taken care of. You know we went on a retreat, we stayed in Austin, we stayed in a big house; an Airbnb together, really got a chance to bond and we're doing it again this year as well. I think those things all sort of helped build that trust. I mean from where we were to point one just like in any transition when you're taking people's livelihoods and basically giving it to this owner that's completely new and they've never met there's always that kind of anxiety and stuff. But we've come a long way in that time and I'm happy to say that pretty much the entire team is still in place. One person did move on to another opportunity but outside of that, the core folks are still there. Joe: Oh, that's great to hear. Syed is probably happy with that as well. As far as the training and transition goes I know that normally it's up to 40 hours over the first 90 days after closing is the standard in the asset purchase agreement, have you needed to reach out to Syed and other folks that are in the upper level management side or were of this business beyond that transition and training period so that you just reached out if you had a quick question that didn't come up in the first 90 days? Nathan: Yeah, I think it was that. It was the first maybe really the first month or two is the bulk of the questions and stuff. Syed was really good about it. We went through training together. Thomas the co-founder was there as well or actually the founder. And so we recorded those conversations, went through each one of the processes and so I had all that. That helped tremendously so if you are selling try doing that. Go through recorded conversations and go through the process of what you do day to day and that really helps for them to not have to ask any questions. They can just look at the video again. Joe: Oh, it's a great idea and we use a Chrome extension called Loom, L-O-O-M on a daily basis when a broker has a question for me or I have a question for someone else they often just record their screen and send that. What software do you use? Nathan: We use Zoom. Joe: Better. Okay. We're on Zoom now and we're recording. Fortunately, as you all will hear in an episode or two I just did a podcast this week. I jokingly said it's the best one I've ever done but I forgot to hit record. So we'll be doing it again next week but I'm sure the guest will bring that up in the podcast for sure. Alright, let's talk about the biggest challenges that you have had since buying the business back in the fall of 2017. Nathan: Yeah, I would say the biggest challenges for me just like with any other business is kind of getting on that horse and riding it. It was just that the day to day stuff, making sure there was no loose ends that I was missing. I think aside from that it was really that there was not a strong product roadmap going forward. So everything would have gone well until up until that point and I think the team was kind of like well we're just fixing stuff how long do we want to just continue just fixing stuff day to day? And so that was just like kind of shaving a product roadmap, again I'm coming in super fresh so there's not a whole lot I can bring to it in terms of this is exactly what we need to do to take us to the next level, right? But the great thing is since I run other businesses and you kind of get a process within yourself that you can apply to these other businesses and for me, it was like let's ask the customers. And that's exactly what we did. We went straight to the customers, put out a survey; short, less than 60 seconds to complete. What are the features you like most, what do you want to see, how are we doing, stuff like that and they let us have it in a good way mostly. Joe: In a good way, okay. Nathan: And so the great thing is that they were happy with this feature set and they provided some stuff that would make them much more happier. And so that is what we're working towards right now. Joe: So they gave you that product roadmap and then your team is working on that. You're not working on it, you're just visionary and they're actually doing the actual work itself, right? Nathan: Yeah, you're right the developers … you know what I did is basically help create prioritize the roadmap. And so the things we have to do first which is we got to rebuild some of our functions and things like that. That's the most important part; to keep … to build on that foundation. And then outside of that, it's going to be basically hitting those priority items and then doing those in truncheons as we move along based on that. Joe: What would you say are your biggest successes or triumphs? Things that maybe they were a challenge but you've overcome them and see that it's maybe something that kept you up at night but it's changed and it's a big part of your business now. Anything like that? Nathan: I think for me it's been a little bit of the marketing, kind of the way to take the market. WordPress is a little bit different in the sense that we have three versions that are on this .org repository. They've got somewhere in the range of 150 to 180,000 active users or active installs, probably more than that with Soliloquy. And so there's not a lot of data we can gather. And up until recently there wasn't a lot of … there's not a funnel that you can put them through to bring them over to the paid versions because again it's actively monitored and it's a lot different than if you have a trial version and you're moving them on to a paid version of the funnel. So I think the challenge was trading out ways to get around that and still playing by the rules. So again opt-ins we've recently put in opt-ins in the free version that wasn't something that we could do previously but things in WordPress community has changed. So that's going to be a huge boom for us. Aside from that kind of marketing directly to the WordPress base, a lot of designer and phyto developers that are used to a certain thing. So one thing they weren't used to was re-occurring payments, annual subscriptions and things like that but honestly, it's become something of paramount importance to anyone that's running plugins that they have to be running a SaaS type program in order to survive or else you won't be able to make it. Joe: Have you changed the payment system with these two products? Have you changed the way that the customers are paying for it? Nathan: The payments have stayed the same. I think a lot of it was showing them the value of continuing that. Joe: Okay. Nathan: Because again WordPress is a little bit tricky because once you pay for it once you basically own it for life. Joe: I got you. Nathan: So here that is really … is bringing in those value added updates and the value added support; the source support is probably like number two on our most celebrated feature of Envira Gallery and Soliloquy. We get it all and we saw it in the survey as well. So making sure that we're doing everything we can for that customer experience just from the support standpoint and not only at the stuff that we're doing as far as updates and things like that. Joe: So you really brought your marketing experience and expertise into the business and that's how you're triumphing in a sense. Is that what it is attributable to the growth that you've seen, the double digit growth or is it that it was going that way and you're just on for the ride and making sure you don't break it. Nathan: Yeah, I think there's a balance between those. So initially … mostly when I go into these types of acquisitions I'm looking for something that's like the first year I'm learning. It's not like I can insert myself and change things at day one like say if you got a content site when essentially you're dealing with software. So it's always very different, the base is different, and then the software base is different in terms of developers and things like that. So for me, it's applying the past knowledge of just making a great intuitive software, changing up the interface to what I believe is just a more … a better user experience, and outside of that applying some of those basic marketing things that just need to be done. In this case a lot of that, the basics have been done, but it's that out of the box stuffs that really needed to get taken care of. Joe: I love that first year just learning approach. I see lots of these businesses that are listed and sold. There's a certain amount of year over year growth and the goal is to at least sustain that. And I had a call this week with someone that blew up the SKU count dramatically and it was his kind of biggest failure but at the same time it turned out to be a little bit of a triumph as well because there are some SKUs that are now generating an awful lot of revenue. But there's also a great deal of loss there as well. So I like that learn in the first year process. And what kind of things are you working on now that were never done before in the business? Nathan: Yeah, so there's a couple of things that have also attributed to the growth outside of just again being a SaaS business with not a terrible churn. And the churn for WordPress businesses I think is probably a little bit above average of what other people see in WordPress. Again you buy one so you can potentially keep it. So outside of that, it's been growing. Our affiliate revenue, that's been increasing pretty tremendously. But we had a lot of articles that had been written that were getting pretty decent on the traffic, didn't have any ads on there, didn't have really any affiliate links things like that. So that's one of the things putting in those affiliate links, building more articles around those really high performing traffic. I think at the time this wasn't taken to do that and sort of nurturing that so that's … I've seen— Joe: Are these affiliate links for other plugins or SaaS products or physical products or a combination of all three? Nathan: So the shoe in for us really became the funnel editing tools. We did a lot of … there's been a lot of [inaudible 00:22:24.1] done, tools such as Photoshop and things like that. And so lot of traffic to that kind of stuff. And it just made sense to start saying hey if you don't have Photoshop and you want to do this stuff that you see in this tutorial here's where you can go. And that's pretty much it. And then building off of that and saying what are those Photoshop competitors are out there well there's Skylum Luminar, there is Capture One, there's all these different types of photo editing tools that are kind of riding on the coattails and maybe on the heels of Photoshop. So writing tutorials for those and the same type of strategy that was used and say hey if you don't have it you can go get it over here. Joe: That seems like such a logical thing to do, slow down and read the article, what are people looking for, what can we … Do you know what you're doing? You're helping the audience. They're reading an article about editing and you're then offering them the best photo editing tools right there within the article and you happen to be making money off of it as well. Nathan: Absolutely. And it wasn't the intention of just skyrocket the affiliate. It just made sense. I was like a rational person would mainly look at that and be like you know what this is already an article at Photoshop so you probably already have it. That's not true. There's a lot of people that wouldn't make something black and white and something color in the black and white picture but they didn't know they needed specifically Photoshop to do it. So they end up going … picking up the Creative Cloud plans 9.99 or 19.99 or whatever a month not three or $400 as it used to be. So it's just a lot more easier and accessible. Joe: How did you find the affiliate platform to use, those affiliate themselves? Nathan: Yeah. So share sell has already been in use in the previous ownerships so that's just one of those things. But in this case, it wasn't really even bad. It's just getting … just registering for the program and dropping them the wings and saying hey I should always focus on this some more too because it looks like to be growing. Joe: Pretty easy stuff then. Nathan: Yeah. Joe: Now you mentioned an e-mail list as well; you've historically had lots of free users, a huge e-mail list. Have you ever done anything with that and if not are you planning to do anything? Nathan: Yeah. So the free versions, there was really no list before because there's no way to collect emails from before. So we've started an opt-in for that which again I think is only … it's been a few couple of short weeks but already we're seeing the results come through. The only … the list that we do have is just essentially people that have paid the pro. But the great thing is we're able to cross sell with Soliloquy because generally if you need something like Envira Gallery you probably need something like Soliloquy. Joe: Yeah. Nathan: So that's continuing churn along as well. Joe: That's fantastic. Nathan you look so happy and relaxed and just chill, are you always this way or is it you're just in a good position in right now that you're running this business and see the trends and whatnot? I mean what's the deal? Let's get simple. Nathan: It's a little bit of both so I would be in positions where things were going absolutely terrible and so the short answer is I meditate every day so that I just accept things as they are so that makes life a lot easier for anyone listening. The second part is I think it is that I paid a higher multiple but I've got the security of if all else fails and I can't figure out what to do it will still follow some level of revenue that was expected. So outside of that, I was just building upon that success that's already sort of continuing as well. Joe: Excellent. What's in the works of … goal eyes what are you looking at in the next 12 to 24 months? Anything that if we come back for the second update in another 12 to 24 months what are you hoping to achieve? Nathan: At a minimum, I'd like to achieve that same double digit year over year growth. But I think again entrepreneurs try to go all triple digit all these different revenue channels. Again I opened up the affiliate revenue more and that's beginning to be more of a significant one. But a couple more like that I think would be interesting and just continued growth man. I mean the main thing is … this is one of the things we discussed earlier. It's just that focus on the customer; making sure they're happy, making sure that we're hitting all those needs and then the business kind of just takes off by itself if you're hitting all those things. Joe: That's it. A clear and simple plan; not too complicated. Focus on the customer makes a lot of sense. Any words of advice from one entrepreneur to others in the audience; people that maybe they're working in the corporate world and want to be the next Nathan Singh. Any advice that you can give in terms of running your own business and overcoming challenges and things of that nature? Nathan: Yeah, I would put it safely into patience, persistence, and presence; those three things. Joe: Alright. Patience I get that. Persistence I get it. Presence … meaning? Nathan: Meaning I think as entrepreneurs what we get into is too much looking around to see what someone else is doing or where they wanted to be in a couple of years and getting super stressed if they don't hit those goals. Remember that is just your perception of where you wanted to be, reality happens different things. And I think that if you're approaching everything in a present moment, I'm not trying to sound like a spiritual guru here. Joe: It's just natural though. I like it. Keep going. Nathan: If you're approaching everything in a present manner you're likely to focus on what you're doing at this point and not be so stressed about all those other stuff. Because essentially that's going to be what's going to mess you up; it is worrying about the future, worrying about how things are not going, things like that. Focus on what the problems are at the current moment and do those things at that minute, at that second and just kind of block everything out. I just feel like everybody is uniquely designed to run their own race. So don't look left and right just do your own thing and you'll get to where you're trying to get to. Joe: I like it. I like it very much. Nathan Singh thank you very much for coming back on and giving us the first ever Quiet Light update. I look forward to doing this again. I wish you the best of success. Nathan: Absolutely. Good talking to you Joe. Joe: You too. Links and Resources: Envira Gallery Solliloquy

university google challenges zoom focus transition presence airbnb ios saas fed folks wordpress northeast acquisition shopify chrome photoshop florida state loom sba gators pdfs wix loi syed gutenberg sku skus 3p soliloquy creative cloud capture one growth goals quiet light brokerage joe valley quiet light joe it mark yeah syed balkhi joe you joe yeah joe how joe so joe there joe good nathan it skylum luminar stephen speer joe did joe now nathan there

How Happy Feet Became a Shark Tank Success

Play Episode Listen Later Apr 23, 2019 35:48

Can a plush slipper put you in a happier mood? Today's guest and Shark Tank dealmaker have been banking on that since buying the existing Happy Feet business in 2002. He is with us today talking about the wild ride that his kiosk, retail, and e-commerce business has been on with a single brand that now has licensing agreements with the likes of Disney, Marvel, and the NFL. Pat Yates is another serial entrepreneur and e-commerce success story. Pat has the broadest experience in physical product of almost anyone we've talked with here at Quiet Light. From his early start in a retail golf shop, to selling coffee out of a truck in a one-man distribution venture, on to kiosk retail with Happy Feet which now has a booming e-commerce presence, Pat has done it all. He walks us through the Shark Tank process, the deal he struck, the risks he took in his first licensing deal with a celebrity face, and how he managed the rapid growth and cash flow challenges his business faced. Episode Highlights: When the website for Happy Feet went live and Pat's vision to merge kiosk to e-commerce. The Snooki Story and how he took a chance on licensing for the first time when no one around him thought it was a good idea. His decision to apply to be on Shark Tank, the process he went through, and what his appearance did for the growth of his business. Rapid growth cash-flow challenges and how Pat overcame them. The importance of having good people around when growing. Ways to scale and grow creatively for success. Mistakes Pat made or was perceived as making in scaling the business. How kiosk business works and Pat's thoughts on the current kiosk climate. Pat's advice for those beginning as entrepreneurs and his key tips to being prepared to succeed. Transcription Mark: Joe, Pat Yates is somebody that has been a friend of Quiet Light Brokerage for a long time and might have one of the broadest experiences in the world of physical products of people that I know. He sold everything from licensing products on retail, a whole kiosk business, e-commerce, and he was also on Shark Tank and you finally had him on the podcast where he can talk about some of the experiences that he's had and what it's like to grow a business that's as popular as Happy Feet. Joe: Yeah I know. Over the last six or seven years I've probably talked to maybe a dozen people that have been on Shark Tank and Pat I think has had probably the most success. He got a deal with Robert. He talks about the process, the presentation, preparing for it, a little bit … he goes back into how he started in Happy Feet in malls, in kiosks; really his father bought the business and he tells some great stories about Jersey Shore and meeting Snooki and how he took a risk and did a licensing deal with her. And then really talks about the success after Shark Tank and how to manage cash flows. And then we dipped a little bit into the back side of it because I was at a Blue Ribbon Mastermind last summer and somebody that has e-commerce product talked to somebody that does retail up on stage and whether they should try mall kiosks and things of that nature. And because Pat has a great deal of experience there we talked about that a little bit at the end in terms of how to go from e-commerce to retail and whether he thought the kiosk business was a good option. Mark: I know every time I walked through a mall … a few years ago when I was walking through a mall I'd always come across one of his kiosks and his giant stuffed slippers which is what Happy Feet is right? Joe: Yeah. Mark: They're these ridiculously oversized slippers and they're super fun and I know people bought them for Christmas presents and everything else. So I've always been fascinated with what he's doing. I do have to ask you real quick just changing topics, do you have any idea what the movie quote was on today's intro? Joe: Not at all. No idea whatsoever so if anybody knows what it is rewind, listen to it again, put it down in the show notes, we'll give you a shout out and a thanks in the next episode. Mark: All right why don't we get to Pat and listen to what he has to say about growing an e-commerce business and also the chaos side of things too. Joe: Hey folks it's Joe from Quiet Light Brokerage and today I've got a Shark Tank alumni and we've had some on the past before but this one actually got a deal and has a great deal of entrepreneurial experience; Pat Yates from Happy Feet. Pat welcome to the podcast. Pat: I appreciate you having me on and I'm looking forward to it. Joe: Good man, all right so we don't do big introductions here. We want to hear a little bit of background on your story. Tell us about your entrepreneurial life, how you got started, and where you are today. Pat: Well it's kind of funny. I started my first business pretty much directly out of college. I was actually working for a gentleman in a … when I got to college I started working in a retail golf shop. It's where I've worked in summers and they put me on as the manager in that location which sounded like a really important job at the time. When I got at a college I thought I was going to change the retail golf industry. But in an event when I was working there I had an opportunity through one of the customers I had to get involved in a business in Columbus, Ohio and I lived in Louisville, Kentucky at the time and he basically told me about it and I decided right on the spot to buy into this franchise deal that he had for a coffee company in Columbus. I went home and my wife of three or four months I told her we were moving to Columbus and she'd never been there. So it was kind of an interesting conversation. My first ever business was basically a one man, one truck. I would get up in the morning and I would sell coffee accounts to restaurants and offices and put in vending and just go out and hump it and it was me and that was it. I did everything. Joe: Let me interrupt for just a sec for just a sec for those husbands out there that are newlyweds and still within that first year of that honeymoon, are you still married to the same woman and do you have children now? She actually wanted to go on it? Pat: Amazingly it'd be 29 years this June and yeah [inaudible 00:04:57.3]. So yeah I was pretty lucky and she just had an interesting ride. You should have her on the podcast to talk about me. That would be probably better. But yeah we started … I started that business and 2 ½ years later I sold it back to the company that was a long … it was a long story about a father and son in federal court over their ownership and it was out in the press and we sold ours back. We had a contract. It was exciting. I moved out to Tennessee and started my own company. I basically have a 200 mile non-compete and I looked at the map 200 miles away and my mom lived in Nashville; I've lived in Nashville. We moved over there and started the same kind of company right after I sold it. So at that point, I started working a little bit also in the winner's pawn specialty retail so I would use carts and kiosks for a couple of months and make extra income whilst I was building that company and that's what led me to e-commerce which led me to Happy Feet. So the short synopsis is my father and his wife are trying to work and sell on kiosk too and they were trying to find products. So when they went to a trade show in Atlanta, the Atlanta Gift Mart one time and ran across a guy who had these slippers and he had a patent on them and designed them and he really wasn't selling any so they agreed to buy a container of them. A small container of 4,000 units and put them in a mall here in Louisville. They sold out that season really quickly. It was a great beginning and then we went out and started sending … giving off 24 people to get kiosks across the country. And in 2002 I bought it out from my family and started going in a little different direction, a trajectory on retail that aren't kiosks that turned out to be really big but then really catastrophic with relation to the growth pattern and then started to concentrate more on e-commerce. And that's obviously led me to a Snooki deal which I'm sure you're probably going to end up asking about which is the funny part of the conversation typically. And then it led me to Shark Tank and it has led us to every late night show, morning show, TV show you can imagine. So the press around the company was incredible and obviously, I'm still here doing it basically 20 years later. Joe: That's an incredible story. So if you're focusing specifically on the e-commerce side of it when did you first open up the first web site for Happy Feet? Pat: Well the first one was actually opened up by my dad when they had the business in 1988. They were … they started in doing very little stuff. I mean I'm talking like we packed two orders in the basement one day. Joe: How much [crosstalk 00:07:08.6] 1998 is a lot of having, I think my first site was 50 bucks probably 1998. Pat: I could guarantee that my dad would not have spent $50 on a website. So I don't know how much he spent but it probably was somewhere south of $50. They really weren't doing anything. I think when I bought the company they were doing $22,000 in web sales. They just … it hadn't translated but what happened was I had a little different vision. And my vision was that if I can get it out to people in kiosks and grow that funnel sale it would get the brand recognized by people and then they would continue to buy it online. And since our business was seasonal, two months a year they were coming to me. Two months a year they were going to the kiosks. So if the kiosks can say osh kosh wherever or from like Milwaukee, Wisconsin closed down and someone went back to buy and they didn't have them they see the name on the back of the slipper and all it did was that distribution funnel continued to grow. So my thing was to try to get it to a lot of places for me to market very quickly and try to build the e-com via that. And we went from 22,000 to about 100,000 to about 400 and we capped a million and now we're well over three million and it just shows no signs of slowing down. It's a fun product. Joe: You know the way that you went about it is actually hard work and hustle. And that hard work and hustle got you in the right place at the right time which is not necessarily luck. It's because of the hard work and hustle but being at that trade show in Georgia where your dad was and meeting these folks and taking the risk in buying that half container load so good for you. But then there's a lot of work to do since then. And as we've talked and I've had a lot of people on the podcast and what I've experienced over the last seven years in the brokering side of it is that everybody has problems with cash flows. So I want to talk about that with you. I want to … first I want to hear the Snooki story and I want to hear a little bit of the Shark Tank experience but then I want to talk about how you've solved the problem of cash flow with a company that is growing so rapidly because everybody that's in the first 12 to 36 months of a business that's growing rapidly faces that challenge especially with the Amazon growth these days. But talk to us about the Snooki story did she just happened to have— Pat: Well it's kind of interesting. It's actually my most fun story of all these and actually from many standpoints; number one from a standpoint of growth, second of all from a standpoint of trusting my judgment. I've had done many podcasts before and I've talked to a lot of people about the biggest thing with me is if I always trusted my judgment on what I first had an inclination on I typically had success. Now it's not always that way. Not everybody gets it right the first time but the 80-20 every time I trusted myself it was good. Every time I didn't trust myself it was the same 80-20 but the 80-20 was the other direction. Well, I'm sitting in my house one night and this is 2009 maybe. I'm guessing. I have to go back and look. But my son comes into my bedroom and I've said this many times so I'm sure people have heard it and he said dad your slippers are on Jersey Shore. Snooki is wearing your slippers on Jersey Shore. I said I only have two questions: who's Snooki and what the hell is Jersey Shore? I really had no idea. I had no idea what it was. I've heard of the show but I didn't pay any attention to it and this was the second season on Miami so [inaudible 00:10:13.8] rewind it and I look and she's bent down cleaning something up with our pink slippers on. It turns out she was just a fan of the product. She bought them and took them down there and thought it'd be cool to wear in the house. So we get all these emails and orders immediately as soon as it starts hitting the air. And we sold out of those pink slippers in like three days. So at that point, I knew I had something. So I being a ford motion guy; that's one of the words I use a lot being a ford motion guy, I picked up the phone and I called her agent and it turns out one of the guys is selling license agreements for her because they figured they could capitalize on her fame at the time. It was in Chicago so I got my car and I drove to Chicago four hours the very next day and I sat down and had dinner with her agent and we offered her a license agreement to design her own slippers. I can tell you that there was not one person including my current partner at that time that wanted me to do it. Every person said this will be a complete travesty. Why in the world would you put her in front of your product? I said well there are several reasons: number one, I saw what it did when we got the press and second of all you can always deal with those things. I mean there's no bad press. What you want to do is get it out there. So to make the long story short we sound this license agreement, we launched our product. Her leopard slippers is still probably all-time the greatest selling product we've ever had. The first time she tweeted out about it with only a million followers she crashed our site. So we got to learn really quickly how we needed to scale. Joe: Wow. Pat: Then she took us to trade shows. We went … she was on Jimmy Fallon playing slipper golf which is one of the coolest. If you ever get the chance you can Google it. It was really fun. I was there for it in New York. We were on Good Morning America, on the Today show, so all that stuff came from it and it turned out it was one of the best decisions I've ever made because of the way that it helped to get the notoriety around the product. And I just trusted my judgment because not one person really believed it was ever going to be something good for us. And it was exciting and since then I'm still in touch with her regularly and her management. We still do a lot of things together. So it's been a great relationship for eight or nine years now. Joe: Wow that's fantastic. A fun story too. Is there any chance of Jersey Shore coming back on the air? Have you got any inside information? Pat: They did a rewind this year but I don't know how it did. I know that she has got some other things she's working on so she's always … I mean the thing is people just … really it's amazing in our society how people sort of make quick determinations on small snippets of someone. She's actually a really sweet girl. Some people look at her and think she's this hard core partier; she really isn't. When we were in Vegas is a great example, we went out … everything she gets she gets for free. We went to a restaurant, she took a picture for Instagram, probably a $7,000 bill and with all these people. We went up to this nightclub and it was roped off area, bottles, service, everything she wanted for free. Her life at that time was just immeasurable with relation to the benefits and things she got. But what we ended up finding out was is that she was just this really calm, young girl. We went out to dinner and out to a club and she never had a drink. It wasn't the Snooki they sell on Jersey Shore; it was Nicole Polizzi which is her name. She's an adopted girl from Colombia and she has a great family and she does … she has great young kids now. She's actually a tremendous person. That's the one thing people would really be surprised at next door. Joe: I believe it. Well, I know that you got connected with Quiet Light back in 2010, 2011 or '12. I know you had some conversations with Mark about doing a valuation for Happy Feet. And as Mark often did he probably gave you some good information and suggested you go and fix that or if you want X amount of money you got to build the business more. Not high pressure at all he did the same for me in 2000. I forgot, no it was 2010, maybe we called him about the same time. But at some point, you said okay this Shark Tank thing looks interesting I'm going to give it a go. Can you talk about your decision to apply to Shark Tank, what it was like being on the show, and what it's done for Happy Feet since? Pat: Well I applied on season two originally and it was … I mean if people hadn't done the Shark Tank applications, it's like 50 or 60 pages of disclosures. It's all handwritten. You can't type it. It's so non-technical, you can imagine. And I got turned down that first year. I went to the interview process. We submitted videos and got turned down and I hadn't really thought much of it after that. I watched the show and I was a fan but I remember it they were getting ready to finish casting for season five and I get a phone call. And believe it or not I was actually on a golf course and I picked up the phone and they said look we'd like to revisit your application. We're scaling so fast. We're doing so many new things. We'd like to revisit it would you want to resubmit this application? I said well it took me days to be able to do the application and videos and stuff and I said like okay if you feel like there might be some fruit from it let me know. So I resubmitted the application, did the videos, it comes right down to the end. This is like in September of 2013 they called and said Pat look we have four or five slots left and about 18 or 20 companies where we got it narrowed down to. We want to tape so what we're going to do is we're going to bring you out to LA and we're going to let you tape in front of the producers. If they like you they'll keep you if they don't they'll send you home. And I'm like alright. So I flew out to LA and actually it's interesting because Snooki was sort of involved in this in a pseudo way. I went out and I taped my test and I went that night to Dancing with the Stars and I sat with her family and her agent at Dancing with the Stars live which was really cool by the way and [inaudible 00:15:25.0] I was done I got a call and they said look we're going to tape you tomorrow so be ready. We're keeping you, we are going to go ahead and tape it. So we taped in September of 2013. It aired in April of 2014. And I was also told that probably 30% of people they tape don't get on air. I've heard the number is less than that but there was no guarantee I was even going to get on TV. And then in April of 2014 obviously it aired and it was an exciting episode. It did not go well for a long time in there. And the way that the production was set up and the way they showed it, it turned out to be what I think is one of the better endings and exciting. So it was a lot of fun and obviously, it was a real whirlwind and since then there's just been nothing but great things that have come from it. Joe: Well you got a deal from it. You're one of the first guys I've ever talked to that's gotten a deal from it. I've probably had conversations with five or six people over the last three years that had been on Shark Tank but you got a deal. Actually, I've got somebody else that got an offer but he didn't accept it which in hindsight he should have. But what was the whirlwind part? You were there for a long time it didn't go the way that you wanted it to but you did end up with a deal, how did it go? Pat: Well you're in there … I'm just going to estimate, I'm going to say I was in there probably an hour and ten to an hour and 20 roughly. You get no break rights. There is no break. If you have to go to the bathroom or you have to get a drink forget about it. You're standing on your spot and you're answering questions and they're grilling you. And probably for the first 15 minutes to an hour, it just wasn't going well. Barbara didn't like me which most women don't like me when they meet me the first time. Then I don't know how it went, then Robert— Joe: We'll do another podcast on that and again we'll have your wife on in that podcast. Pat: Anyway it just … everything seemed to be going negatively and then I got an offer from Kevin which was one of his royalty deals which wasn't going to help me. And then Lori I really thought was going to do something then she hitched her wagon to Kevin which was really tough for me because I did not want to deal with that royalty agreement and that was really all I had on the table. And then about an hour and five minutes in I decided because Mark had made comments I asked him if I could tell him a story versus you know asking him. And I talk about my mom who had passed away and I talked about my passion as an entrepreneur and how this is a single product and some people don't do that as a company but I was going to get up every day to make sure it grew. And he made a quick comment which I'm glad they didn't cut out and he said you're the real deal and you have a great business but it isn't a fit for me. At the time I wasn't sure why I mean obviously he has an NBA franchise, we had NBA licensing, I don't know if that got anything to do with it or he just didn't want that kind of product. But either way what happened was it changed more of them because at the end of the day Mark controls more money than most of those people put together. And you're in a situation where if he is saying something like that it makes people view it different. And I think my plea is exactly who I was as an entrepreneur; passion, excitement, and getting people engaged where they feel excited about what they're going to do. Then all of a sudden Robert came back in and made an offer and then Lori and those guys wanted to counter. I gave him a maximum we wanted and understand we only took at our web addition we weren't a consolidated company with relation to wholesale and then all of a sudden Robert said I'll take that deal and I wasn't going to hesitate. I didn't even allow Lori and Kevin to react to it. I just said done and it was over. And the deal changed after the fact. It wasn't exactly the same on the show. It really wasn't anything near that. Joe: There's lots of due diligence after you shake the hand I assume. A lot of verification and it takes process. Pat: For us, it wasn't even that. Robert and I talked and he said you told me you didn't necessarily need the money and he says why do you want to do this? Well I said, first of all, I could use some money but it isn't that important now but I really need the connections and I'd like you to help me grow this company. That's really what I wanted. He said look let's just do a small deal without the money. If you need something in the future I'll try to help you but I want you to work with my Shark Tank group. We signed a deal and we've been working with him ever since. And they're fantastic. They have a Shark Tank division that's run by a really dynamic young lady and she's really good and anytime I need him I can get him. I talk to Robert occasionally. I was in his office four to six months ago before the launch of the Disney line and we went over some stuff but he's just a great guy and it's a great group of people. And honestly, I'm happy it didn't close at what it was before because it would have changed for both of us. There had been a lot more expectations on both sides and other than that Robert has helped me with anything I need from soup to nuts with business including we have so much press. Obviously, it led us to DreamWorks it led us to basically every license we want in the United States and the world for that matter. So it's really a blessing for me and it was exciting, it was stressful, it was fun, it was really scary to watch because I couldn't see the episode. I wasn't allowed to see it. I had to watch it like everyone else. And I swear to goodness I had no idea how it was going to look. And I honestly [inaudible 00:20:12.4] and I don't really get nervous. I've played basketball in a small college, in high school and I've been an athlete. I'm a very competent high playing individual but that one I was sitting there to win. I just don't know how this is going to look. But it was great. And then the one interesting thing that most people don't realize they will usher you off to an airport immediately. As soon as you get off sound stage they take you out of the sound stage into another stage. You do your post interview. They have to sit with a counselor which is required for an hour because they're afraid that some people would be suicidal. So you'll sit with a counsel when they feel like you're in good shape to leave they walk you out the door. This is not a joke. They put you in a van. They drive you to a hotel. You should have your bags packed and they will not put anyone that takes in the same hotel. They don't want you talking. We were originally in the same hotel before we pitched and afterwards they spread you out and then you fly back the very next day. So it was a real whirlwind and it was exciting but it was stressful. But everything that's come out of it has just been fantastic and it made for good television. Joe: Okay I just have to comment on the counselor part and then we'll move on to your growth and then the cash flow challenges that everybody in the audience that's an entrepreneur faces, but does Mr. Wonderful have to pay for the majority of the counselor because he says you're dead to me more than anyone else? Pat: Probably Barbara would be. She has I don't know … it was … again that part was a little odd for me. I didn't know they were going to do that but then they just bring it on me. So I'm like no, I'm in a great mood what do we need to do to get out of here now? They make you stay for an hour. Joe: That's fascinating. Alright so how did it turn out and what kind of growth have you seen since 2014? And then we'll talk about how you dealt with that in terms of financial cash flow challenges. Pat: Yeah I mean we jumped up 40 to 50% over the period of time from where we were in the baseline during at the time. It led us to get passed by DreamWorks to do a license which at the time was a very good thing but it was my first foray into a big license and it was a little challenging. You couple the fact that they were sold in the middle of it in DC universal which became very difficult because they were moving those assets in and they get people assigned, people to work with me. So the DreamWorks thing was an interesting lesson in licensing and how implemented and I didn't do a great job at it but it was a good license and now obviously we're working with Disney and Marvel and all those things came from Shark Tank so it's a great thing for us. Joe: So when it comes to a business that's growing rapidly as many of the folks that I talked to on a regular basis are dealing with a lot of the physical product e-commerce businesses that we're selling, actually I'd say the majority of them are probably less than three years old. And the reason that I see that people exit, you know buyers always say well it's so great why are you selling? It's because for that three year period they're hardly taking any money out of the business. They bootstrapped it, they put it together, and then every penny that comes from the revenue of the business goes back into buying more inventory and trying to stay ahead of it and not have stock outs. What have you done in your business to overcome some of those challenges and what advice can you give to entrepreneurs that are eventually going to be in your position? Pat: Some of it is … there's an easy answer and there's difficult answers. So the easy answer is I think anytime that you're facing cash challenges you should address that either one of two ways. Obviously, they jump off the paper to anyone. Obviously, there's banking that you get involved in but I believe that is really important to find someone who can add value to your company if you decide to do a strategic partner. Some people believe don't believe in partners but if you can find the right strategic partner that not only gives you a leg up in some of the systems and other things that you're going to encounter as you grow but also can help in the financial thing that's premium. What I did as we started to try to grow it is I partnered with someone that could afford to help scale that growth and make sure that we had a position to where we would have the product. But I also started to get creative with vendor relationships. For instance, there's a manufacturer that I work with on licenses that is one of the biggest manufacturers of plush in the country if not the biggest. And I went to them because their margins were really low when we talked about and I said what if we could raise your margins by you going ahead and using your scale and your manufacturing abilities. You send the product in, we have the ability to pay for it as we sell it almost like a consignment deal but we can help you develop a division where your margins grow if it's not capitally intense then it would make sense for both parties. So what I tried to do is be very passionate with people I could put around me in vendor partnerships to try to get them to help me with the initial product I needed to do anything. We developed a brand new credit slipper called zlipperz; Z-L-I-P-P-E-R-Z. That was a collaboration with a company on being able to develop the actual design and to make the product and then we didn't have to put a lot of money on the pocket because we're putting a lot into the system side. I think you just have to talk to everyone you can possibly think of. It doesn't have to be an investor, it doesn't have to be a bank, it could sometimes be your vendors, it could sometimes be family, it could sometimes be a warehousing and distribution company. I mean I almost … I talked to a warehouse and distribution company one time and said look if you could bring your distribution to us we'll help invest in some of the product and we'll mark that back up to be able to help get the distribution business. So there's a lot of ways that people can scale businesses if you put the right people around you. And I think you just have to be willing to have those conversations and think creatively on how to grow your business. Joe: I think you're absolutely right. The more I've talked to different entrepreneurs in this situation it's being likable and it's working hard and it's getting lucky back to the reason you are in the business here and now. And again I don't mean to make light of being lucky because it only came from your hard work and dedication and being willing to take some risks by hopping in a car and drive four hours to Chicago just to meet with the agent of Snooki when you didn't really know. You didn't know what she was all about. So you got to do those things. Well, we had people on the podcast that sort of break the mold in terms of being able to buy internet based businesses because they use local banks because they've built relationships with them. They go and they talk to them, they shake their hands, they see them face to face, and they instill confidence in the bankers, other types of lenders, investors, family funds, family members, warehouse owners, shippers, whatever it might be their goal is to stay in business and to grow. And if you can do what you're talking about and make it mutually beneficial then they're going to help your business grow as well. We do that every day. It's not just brokering and trying to sell a business for the absolute maximum price, it's trying to achieve the goal of the seller. Sometimes they're trying to get it sold very quickly with a better set up and transaction. Maybe all cash close in 30 days other times they want to max it out. They're willing to take a small note on something and hold the business and deal with that emotional stuff you go through for a little longer in order to reach the goal. So I like the fact that you're talking about bringing in other people and talking to as many people as possible to make something mutually beneficial. Well, what would you say has been the biggest challenge and maybe the biggest mistake you've had to have made in terms of finances in cash flow and things of that nature? Just pull on out of your hat to— Pat: Well it's interesting because I can tell you I've made hundreds of mistakes but as I've talked about before there's … let's just say there's a hundred there's less than three that I would regret because the other 97 led me to something that is always better for business. So I'll give you a great example when I was growing the kiosk business my father and his wife Sharon who started it basically had … I don't think they had more than 25 kiosks at one point in any seasons which is still a lot if you're talking season November, December. When I bought it and started doing distribution I changed it up. I brought them into the warehouse because they use to sell only containers. They bring them in to container loads, they bring them in to Seattle or LA Portland and they'd send it to customers. They never touched a product. They didn't have a warehouse; didn't touch it. It was basically just an order company. It's like an FOB order. What I decided to do was get a warehouse and bring the product in, get the warehouse to scale, put people in there, break the containers and ship whatever they needed. So if they didn't get in the 4,000 or 8,000 pair of containers I could still sell. So we went from 30 to about 300 kiosks in about four or five years. So we were one of the bigger kiosk programs seasonally in the United States. We had them from every state. You know I had one guy that ran 20 of them. So what I couldn't see at that time were two things: one, how good that would be and two, how catastrophic it would be. And it's interesting that they're both. And the reason they were both is I started to get so much product and we were so seasonal that I was taking chances on buying product in case we added a few kiosks late or someone needed more or whatever and that was just that all that was doing was rolling the dice and eventually figuring out what year it was going to come up craps. That you ended up a year where you had a million dollars in products sitting on the floor for nine months to a year that you didn't have money to pay for. So I was sort of in a position to where I was betting on to come a little bit more than I needed to be with the kiosk business so it became catastrophic with relation to cash flow. And I ended up having to partner with someone to be able to make sure that I could hedge it and grow. But at the same time, it was the biggest blessing I did because as we put the slippers out there and our name and buy HappyFeet.com was on the back people learned about our brand and we started to build that same funnel I talked about. It's funny how my hands are always down here than they appear but— Joe: And if you had the video I can see that funnel, that visual that you're doing. Pat: I just let everybody know I move my hands we're not even on video. Anyway, my point in this is that it helped grow what we … the scope of the business. It looked bigger. It looked like a company. It looked like something you'd want to be involved with. So all these people started taking notice and we did NBA license, we did NCAA, we did NFL, we did all these different things and we really expanded the base of the product. And it's something that … you know the first container they bought was four styles in three sizes or four sizes, there were 16 SKUs and now we have over 5,000. Joe: Wow, incredible. Pat: So it was catastrophic to our cash flow because it nearly broke me and it should have and still trail the business for years after that because I made the decision. But it's hard to be upset about it because we were in a position to where we decided that we couldn't continue on that trajectory. So we cut the kiosk business back, we concentrated on the .com and what we found out was people were conditioned to buying a product and if the kiosk wasn't there that year they bought it from us for Christmas. So those leap years and those difficult things it's almost hard to be upset about it because it was almost like the lost that you would have taken or the aggravation tax. It was something that you really needed to be able to grow the company overall. So it's really hard to regret that. Every decision that I made that's been bad I always look at something and that thing could be better. The DreamWorks thing, I was terrible at it. I didn't understand any licenses but now I have learned some things about it that going into the Disney/Marvel deal that helps me really understand it better. So I don't regret a lot of those things. I just try to learn from them to get better and back to the point you talked about with relationship on scaling the cash, be passionate like I was. When I talked to people they get excited about building products, they're excited about doing businesses and doing all these things. If you go in and find people that have capital that don't operate businesses and you're passionate they'll put you in place to make you successful because at the end of the day that's what you're going to do for them. It's all going to come around and that's why I have to maneuver so I have to jump up every day and say I want to be passionate. Sometimes it's been hard for me to do that because it's tough but that's what I'm always trying to do. Joe: Yeah it can be exhausting for sure. Let me just pivot here, you've talked about kiosks a lot, it's what you know. You know very well. You're in the ecommerce world now and licensing and so on and so forth. I've been in a few events, Mastermind events where people have stood up and said hey what are your thoughts about me taking my brand and starting in the kiosk business and expanding in retail that way instead of a retail store? What are your quick thoughts on that for folks that are out there thinking of that now? Is it a pain in the ass? Is it worth it? Is it challenging? Is it too much, too late? What are your thoughts? Pat: Let's say … let me answer two ways: number one, for our product as big as it is and needing storage for a couple of months a year it's a very difficult sale. Because I think it's challenging, it's tough, it's a big investment, they want too much per square foot. I personally think that the kiosk and especially retail business is terrible. That's just my opinion. I just think retail, in general, is bad so when it falls down to that and what you see malls do is go away from branded products and good looking kiosks in the past to getting anything they can get in there. It's now like a flea market. So I really don't think it's a very good business unless malls turn around and change it. As far as retail goes you're making a huge commitment to what you're getting in front of customers. Right now I think it's very difficult to get in to retail and be able to scale. But if your product is small enough and you have the ability that you can get people to run them independently then yes I would not sign a lease all over the country as an independent company and then try to make it work for one hug and then have 25 or 30 locations. It's not a good business plan. I think some people have to go to retail. Luckily I'm right now knock on wood I'm not in that position to have to do that. It's not a tremendous business but it's not a bad place to start if you have to. Joe: Okay I got you. Alright Pat you've been an entrepreneur for 30 years, there a lot of folks out there that are just starting off on their entrepreneurial journey some of them are 20 years old, some of them are 50 years old and are quitting the corporate world any last minute advice for those that are just beginning that you can share? Pat: Yeah don't quit your job until you have a built business. I mean I talk to my sons, my sons don't work in my business because we know that I can … first of all, I need them to go and find their own way. And I want them to be able to go out and understand what it takes day to day to be able to work at this job and bride. If they were working for me then I know that they would get a little bit of a sense of complacency. But I tell them if you want to start a business start it while you have a job. Something that is not taking you away from a job, not like you're living and working for someone all day and then taking some of those money. See if you can make a run in whatever product or business you want to do, keep your income so you don't add that stress. There's a stress to starting a business you need to make sure you have an income. If you can figure out how to make that and navigate that as a new entrepreneur, then I think that you have an ability to have a good balance. Either way, you have to be ultra-excited about it and willing to do anything. I'll give you a great story and I know that some people may have heard some of the podcasts, I had a guy that was an entrepreneur here in Louisville that I work for at that golf shop and I told him I said I'm going to go start a business I think I'm going to leave this job is there any advice you can give me? And he said well you're moving from a meal ticket to a suit lot and understand that's not going to be easy. There're going to be days when you're going to worry if you can even have food on the table or whatever it's going to be and you're not going to have a fall back. You're not going to have that check coming on Friday and you better hope it shows up in the mail paying some of your receivables so you're not going to have anything. And it's stressful and some people look at the excitement of taking a product and taking it to market and say hey I can do this so I could really make this work but they don't understand the other intricacies to running a business and stress that comes with that. It's not easy so the biggest thing is just to make sure you're prepared for that. Number two, I'd like you to keep the job and then I would find some mentors to put around you. A board that is a pseudo-board; it may not have to be a board of directors, it's not that sophisticated but people that can help you understand and navigate the problems that you're going to go through. You're going to find them. Joe: Awesome, that's great advice. Pat Yates, HappyFeet.com thanks for coming on the show we'll talk to you soon. Pat: BuyHappyFeet, B-U-Y HappyFeet. Joe: There you go BuyHappyFeet.com I'm going to go buy some. Thanks, man. Pat: Thank you Joe. Links and Resources: Happy Feet Pat's LinkedIn Profile

How to Use Drop Shipping to Kick Business Into High Gear

Answering the Call Podcast - NOBTS

Play Episode Listen Later Feb 19, 2019 34:14

Going back six years, the concept of owning an e-commerce business where you could set up a site, sell a physical product, and never have to hold stock was extremely appealing. That concept has died down in recent past. Today we have someone on the podcast who is here to report that drop shipping is not dead. It is sustainable if it's done right. We're going to hear how our guest is perpetuating that sustainability with his business. Anton Kraly is the founder and CEO of DropShip Lifestyle & eCommerce Lifestyle. His business is focused on empowering people through eCommerce and effective marketing. From a book that he absorbed in one week, Anton got his website up and his business going. He learned all about AdWords and how to make it so his site got those clicks. Anton takes us on his twenty-year journey from delivering a physical product, then moving onto product listing and inventory on a larger scale, to eventually going back to the true drop ship model. A successful drop shipper's job is to build a store with a desirable product, make it look good, have excellent customer service, and then sell, sell, sell. Episode Highlights: Benefits of drop shipping versus building your own brand. The disadvantages of drop shipping – if any! Anton's tips on where to find products. The average order value Anton recommends. How to convince the manufacturer to take you on as a seller. The best platforms to use for sales and website examples to review. How to advertise and where to find clients. Marketing channels to use other than Google. The importance of self-management/DIY when building. We discuss the Amazon factor and its implications for the drop ship model. How to use drop shipping as a stepping stone to building a brand. Transcription: Mark: About five or six years ago Joe we had an e-commerce business … man maybe even more than that, maybe seven years ago or right around the time you started at Quiet Light Brokerage. I remember like the hierarchy for e-commerce businesses right at the top was having a drop ship business. Because people love the idea that you could set up an e-commerce physical products business but never actually have to touch the product like oh this is beautiful. Today they've kind of fallen out of favor. We don't see drop ship business as often and I think it's because people think that they're just kind of easy to spin up and then they get wiped out. But you had somebody on who is in the drop ship world and loves it and is doing a great job. Joe: Yeah. Anton Kraly ‘s been doing it for about 20 years. He actually started in New York. He had a bakery route where he had a truck literally delivering bakery products to different retail outlets and set up a website and started dropping shipping bakery products all around New York online back 20 years ago. Fast forward to today he really talks about the differentiation between owning a physical products e-commerce business and large amounts of working capital rolling like crazy and taking all the profits putting it right back into it and [inaudible 00:01:56.5] that story versus a drop ship model. A drop ship model; he really hones in on the fact that it is mostly pure profit. You're focused on advertising dollars; that's important. We talked about the average ticket size and why it's important to be larger rather than smaller and US manufacturers and how to find them. Like you said five, six years ago it was all the rage. I think it's a great model, to be honest, we think it's fantastic. It takes less working capital to get started if you do your research and really focus in on some of the things that he's talking about. I think it's a great opportunity for somebody to start their own business versus buy. I know you had Amanda on the podcast about that. I think it's a great opportunity to go that route if there's not a ton of money for startup capital and you really don't want to do imported from China which can be complicated. Mark: Yeah. Look at one thing and think about these ideas of fading niches and fading business styles is that if you find a business today that is in one of these fated business setups like drop shipping; if it's doing well today that's most likely a highly sustainable business. We look at these things and we say oh well drop shipping didn't work because it's just not sustainable for the long term. If somebody has been doing it and is doing it now today then there's something sustainable about it. I would agree that the old model of just taking a product feed and throwing it up there, yeah there might be some problems with that. But drop shipping is still viable if it's done right. So I'm interested to see what he's doing specifically for that sustainability and protecting against that competition and hearing how this will all work. And this is fascinating. Again this is kind of a blast from the past but how it works today. So let's get into it and see what he has to say. Joe: Let's go to it. Joe: Hey folks it's Joe from Quiet Light Brokerage and today I've got Anton Kraly with me on the line. Welcome Anton, how are you? Anton: I'm doing very well Joe. Thanks for having me. Joe: It's great to have you here man. You know the process; we've talked about it just before the recording started here. Why don't you give the folks a little bit of background on yourself and what you do with ‎Drop Ship Lifestyle? Anton: Sure. So yeah my name is Anton Kraly. I built my first e-commerce store way back in 2007. I started off then selling cookies online and basically just got into the business after reading I think a book that got most of the entrepreneurs [inaudible 00:04:07.8] started which was the 4-Hour Workweek. I mean it introduced me to back then Yahoo Stores and AdWords. So I spent a week figuring it out and it worked. I since then kind of been working my way up selling more and more expensive products and transitioning from what used to be an importing model to the drop shipping model. Joe: One week? You took the book 4-Hour Workweek and in one week you got a listing up and running and a business off there? Anton: Yes but before that, I thought that e-commerce and building websites was like this big thing that took a team and $100,000 plus and all these … you know just technical people. And that book what all it gave me was you can go to YahooStores.com and spend $29. And the website was ugly. It was very ugly but I had a delivery route for a bakery in Brooklyn, New York. So I had this idea that I could build a website. I had access to these bakery products. I figured out Ad Words and just said hey we'll use keywords like New York Bakery, New York Cookies, and said I think my little descriptions were moved out of New York and missed New York Bakeries? Click here. And yeah I started getting sales like almost right away on that. Joe: That's amazing. I love it. I love the story and I love the action in terms of just doing it and getting things done. It didn't have to be perfect. If you waited for it to be perfect you would still be working on it for sure. I think I built my first site for $50 so congratulations you got me beat. So … but you were actually physically owning the products in terms of the baking goods and at one point you worked in to just drop ship. Can you touch on that a little bit? Anton: It's funny actually I was I guess technically drop shipping then but what I had at that time … I was 21 years old right out of school and I bought a delivery route for a bakery in Brooklyn. Joe: Ah okay. Anton: What I had basically was the rights to pick up boxes of cookies and sell them to a section of Long Island where I was living. And once I started this business at first I was just shipping them myself like literally having USPS pickup branch boxes and then I just said to the bakery like hey can you guys just ship these things for me and they said yes. So that was drop shipping. I didn't know what it was but after I was doing that … not for long, probably a few months I just was thinking like okay I'm selling $20 boxes, $30 boxes making like $10 per sale if that net so why can't I sell something that costs $200 or 500 or a thousand. So my initial plan back then or is my plan of action and what I did was go on e-Bay, look at completed listings and just looking for things that sold consistently. I buy at now prices, basically identified some items, I still don't know what drop shipping was so I found a website Alibaba.com and started importing. So I did that probably for two or three years import only. Bringing in dozens of containers from China to Long Beach in California and all my e-commerce stores back then were on that model. As I did that again after a few years of traction and doing really well growing like doubling over year over year I actually started to have companies reach out to my stores. And they would say hey we saw your website, we see you sell these things, we make these things do you want to sell ours? And they basically introduced me to drop shipping. Because they explained you don't need to buy this, you don't need to put it in your fulfillment center. You can just list these products, you sell them, and we'll ship them for you. Joe: Let's define that then. For people that don't have the experience set that you and I have go ahead and define drop shipping and how it's different from owning your own brand and physically owning the products and shipping them yourself. Anton: Got it. Drop shipping really is a high level term so if you Googled it you could find probably 10 different business models that technically would be drop shipping. And the way that we do it is basically we consider ourselves Internet retailers. So the way I like to describe it is if you went to a shopping mall and let's say you went to Dick's Sporting Goods right? They're a retailer. You go there and you buy Nike shorts and maybe Callaway golf clubs and whatever brands make kayaks and they sell other people's products. So that's how we do drop shipping. So again instead of building a site and let's say … you know I have a sofa behind me, so instead of making sofas or private labeling sofas we would just go out there and find the top 50 or 100 whatever it is sofa company is for us in the US because that's where we do business. We would reach out. We would say hey you know we see your products and we own this site and would like to sell them. And the arrangement on the drop ship model is they give us their full product catalog. They give us all their descriptions, their SKUs, their images, they just give us all the content and then us as retailers it's our job to make them look good on our websites. Basically, make sure we're taking care of customers and then, of course, our job is to drive visitors and then turn those visitors into customers on our online retail stores. Again the difference is I wouldn't ask those 50 sofa companies can I buy ten of all your best selling products and ship them to my warehouse. I would just get the sales on my website after the sale is made the order gets forwarded to whatever brand it is. The brand ships it direct to the consumer. So again your job as a … and the way that we do it your job as a drop shipper or internet retailer is to build a good store that has great product descriptions that actually has existing customer service and that gets really good at finding buyers bring them to your website. Joe: Yeah. So you touched on some things that I think are advantages of drop ship over owning your own brand but I want you to go ahead and give me two or three there and then we'll talk about them for those listening in the audience. Anton: Yeah; definitely, so back again let's … maybe 2008, 2009 when I was only importing. Basically, I was limited in terms of growth, in terms of revenue because every time I place an order with China I had to put down at least 30%. Before the container got to California I had to pay the balance. Joe: A container … I mean we're talking about a tractor trailer load size— Anton: Yeah. [crosstalk 00:09:32.2] Joe: —a lot of money there. Anton: Yeah. That's right a lot of cash. And basically, that's what happened. Our growth back then was limited based on how much cash I had. Again I had … only I had what was coming in so it was a bankroll sitting there that I could draw from. So basically yeah that was an issue. And then also if I wanted to add new products, back then I probably had between 10 and 20 different SKUs. So I couldn't just say I want to sell … I want to double the amount of products we offer and sell those. I just didn't have that option because again it was cash prohibited. Joe: Number one might be … I mean if someone is starting out on their own and they don't have a whole lot of working capital they may seriously consider drop shipping versus finding, building, designing, private labeling their own brand and then ordering some from an overseas country. Anton: Definitely. Joe: So working capital. If somebody is strapped and doesn't have tens of thousands of dollars to start off with. Anton: Yes. Joe: Okay. I got you. What kind of working capital do you think the … an average drop shipper that's someone that you train needs? What's the ideal situation? Anton: So it depends if you want to outsource things. Again like when I first started I built all my own websites and I created all my own ads and I wrote all my own emails and I did it all myself. So if you want to be the type of person or if you are the type of person that does all the work it really doesn't cost that much as far as a budget. Maybe honestly like a thousand dollars, $2,000 in the high end is like that's okay, again, if you're willing to do the work. If you do want to outsource things like uploading products and having unique descriptions and having content created for your website, I wouldn't recommend outsourcing ads at first but if you wanted to do all that then maybe 10,000 bucks and you can get set up with a nice looking store that's pretty much ready to go. Joe: So drop shipping is not dead right? You know I just … before we started recording we've just had a very attractive drop shipping site go into contract in the in the mid million and a half range actually. Most people that are out there looking for a business think physical products and own their own brand so that they can in many cases they do it on Amazon or a Shopify store. What are the disadvantages that you've experienced by being a drop shipper versus owning your own brand … well owning your own brand, you still own the customers as a drop shipper. Anton: Yeah. Joe: But what are the disadvantages? Anton: So we've done it both ways and let's go to it. We can talk about this but if you are again we'll just keep using the sofa example. If I sold for 50 different sofa brands and I had a successful store I would know what the top 20% of products were. I would know what sells the best. And then again what I used to do … I don't do this anymore I'm planning actually my move to Charlotte is to get back into this but what we used to do is introduce our own brands then on our website. We basically just okay we have 50 brands now we have 51, one of them being ours where we could sell our versions of the top products and maximize profit there. So that's the biggest advantage if you have your own brands. The margins just simply are higher. You can make more money because you're not paying for someone else's brand equity basically. Joe: Okay, I got you. That makes a heck of a lot of sense. Anton: Yeah the other one is we usually … I mean you could speak about this but sale price. If you want to sell your store and you have your own brand that could be a bigger package. It could be more valuable to a buyer that wants that. But that would be another advantage. Joe: Maybe. Yeah, there are a lot of advantages and attractive features about drop ship. Number one, no working capital required. A lot of the people that own their own brands and launched their own business with a brand starting out they do it bootstrapped. Maybe they don't have … maybe they have got 5,000 instead of a thousand or two like you talked about for drop shipping business but every ounce of profit that they make if the business is growing like crazy and they're just trying to keep up with volume of orders and inventory so they don't run out what I see is for 24months they're taking all the profit and putting it right back into buying more inventory and there's hardly left … any left over for them; its discretionary earnings, its taxable income, because they're buying a lot of inventory. But they don't get to pull a hold off out of the business and I sense that with a drop shipping business and I've seen it there's a lot more pre-working cash flow because you're not actually buying that physical product and so you've taken the order and have the money hit your account right? Anton: Yeah and that's the beautiful thing. So like you mentioned with building your own brand and constantly having to reinvest if you're growing to purchase more product, typically with that the payday does come when you sell the business. That's when you get all that money out. As the business value grows but your cash flow doesn't … or your free cash flow. And with drop shipping yeah if you do this the right way and you're working with the right type of suppliers and of course you're not overspending on traffic you really do control your costs. So most of your costs are variable so having … even if you're in reinvesting like a little bit more into traffic and trying to raise your budget it is realistic to have a 20% net profit every month in cash that you can then again determine what you want to do with. If you want to invest it into a business or do you want to take it out? So our cash flow from day one is much much higher than when you're going to be trying to scale your inventory. Joe: Okay. So let's talk about I want to start the drop ship business, I'm convinced I want more cash flow. I'm not worried about a big sale down the road although they are very, very sellable businesses. How do I find the products? How do you find manufacturers that are willing to allow me to sell their products on their behalf? Anton: Yep. So as far as finding products there's so many things out there but basically what we look for for some general rules of thumb is expensive products. Our average sale price we want to be usually a thousand dollars or more. We do sell products for less than that but that's the average order value we're looking for. We also look for different product types where customers really don't care what brand they get it from. So an example I sometimes give is let's just say someone heard oh a thousand dollar products price. I want to sell televisions or high end gaming monitors. Well, I would say that's a bad idea because if someone wants to buy that they're going to buy a Samsung TV or an LG monitor and that's not a company you get approved to sell. But if you wanted to sell something like sofas or books shelves or any of these products types no one cares … no one says I want this brand name sofa and I have to have that. So things that … yeah, there's really not brand loyalty. That definitely helps and things where there is a lot of possible variation or colors. So another example I give is chandeliers. So someone buys a new home like we're trying to do now you want to replace the lighting fixtures. If I want a chandelier I can go to Home Depot and Lowes and see what they have. But if I see something on Pinterest or Instagram and I want this specific size and color and amount of bulbs like I'm not going to find that at a local store. So China might stack the cards in your favor by going for things where customers are usually drawn online, to begin with, to make those purchases. Joe: Okay so – Anton: [inaudible 00:16:14.8] to search for a new iPad but something generic. Joe: Right. So something generic with a high ticket item. How do you find those manufacturers? Anton: Yeah. So Google … I mean that's really what we do. And one of the tips I could tell people not to do is don't look for drop ship suppliers online. Because when you go that route what you're going to find is directories and middlemen that typically charge like a monthly fee for access to their products. They really are middlemen. What you want to do is always get approved directly with the brands that you're selling for. So you don't want to go through a distributor if at all possible. You definitely don't want to go through any one that calls themselves a drop ship supplier director or anything like that. Again going back to the sofa example, I would go on Google, I would type in whatever I want to sell; maybe three sitter fabric sofas. I would go through Google. I would open every website in a different tab that sells them. I would look for either a page called brands or manufacturers or suppliers. And I would go ahead and then open or make a document with every company name I found there. And basically, I would work off that list. So I would build my own list of not … again like I wouldn't call them a list of drop shippers, I'd call them a list of brands that manufactures sofas. And then I would reach out to them old school by picking up the phone and saying hey this is Anton from AntonSofas.com, I found your website and these products and thought they'd be a great fit and who can I speak to about getting approved for an account and take it from there so yeah. Joe: How do you convince them to allow you to be a drop shipper when you haven't built a website first or is the—? Anton: We built the website first. So yeah if I was getting into a new industry let's … again sofas, I build a website. I would upload maybe five or 10 stock images. Everything else would be finished though, the about us page, all of it. Then we have blog posts up there. The whole thing; the phone number would work, the live chat would work. And then when we spoke to them we would say basically we're launching this website on whatever it is you know March 1st and our plan is to work with X, Y, and Z companies. So mention some of their competitors that makes sofas that's probably well-known and respected. And we could say our plan is to launch with again these companies, we'd love to have you on board. We think that your products whatever it is X, Y, Z that we found on their website would do really well. If they ask tell them a little bit about our previous experience, how we're going to get traffic. Tell them about how customer service is everything with our business and kind of go through the things that we know that they're looking for and the things that … they're also the things that we know we have to do to make the store successful. Joe: Okay. So build a website on the product and then start the marketing and we'll get to that in a second. So in terms of building the website do you have examples on Drop Ship Lifestyle of what one looks like that would be an ideal one to build? Anton: We do. We have a bunch of different links. I could send you some to check them out but I think one of them that we have a lot now is in lightandchandeliers.com so if anybody wants to check that out. We also have HappyPawsDogStore.com. So those are websites that are built on Shopify using the Drop Ship Lifestyle theme that we had built and they just show again what the site would look like at that stage when you're ready to start contacting suppliers, get approved, and [inaudible 00:19:17.6]. Joe: So you answered one of my other question which is which platform do you prefer and it sounds like Shopify. Okay. Anton: For 99% percent of stores, yeah. Joe: All right so you've identified the niche that you want to go in to, you build the website, and then you find the manufacturers and develop the relationship and bring their catalogues into your website. How do you go ahead and find the customers and market the brands? Anton: Yep so our favorite way is still through Google Shopping by using Google product listing ads. Those are the ads if anybody goes on Google and types in a product name or you can just use the general niche name you'll see the little images of different products. It'll show the product's price. It will show the store name. So we advertise there and then also if you're … if you search that on Google and put shopping you'll see all the ads there. And it's just always been like back in the day I think when I first started it was called frugal.com and like that's always been our highest converting source of traffic. So we focus on not just having our products there but really optimizing our product feeds to make sure that we are getting a good ROI. Because the big … since again all of our expenses are variable our biggest expense is marketing. So we spend a lot of money on ads. And so I'm just making sure that we are putting it in the right places and monitoring it. Like we we're always reviewing our ad campaigns. That's what drives the business. Like you need a high converting website, you need great brands, but if you're not really active with … inside your Google ads account then it doesn't matter. So yeah that's what drives our sales. Joe: So that initial one to $2,000 that you thought was a big budget initially does that include the advertising budget when you launch? Anton: Most of that would be going in there. And this is another good thing I should have mentioned earlier but speaking about how these are cash flow businesses with the way that we do advertise to get the majority of the time it's either coming from a Google product listing at search or someone searching for a brand name or a product name or an SKU number or it's something that we optimize for on our website where they're searching again and they're finding us organically. But by the time people find us they're typically trying to figure out am I going …with where my going to buy from basically. They know they want product X, Y, Z and they're looking to figure out where they should buy it from. So we do a bunch of stuff on our websites to have them choose us. But also by the time they click one of our ads they're either going to buy or not buy typically in like three to five days. So it's not like we're spending whatever a hundred dollars today and hoping it comes back to us two months from now. Joe: Wow. Anton: Spending money now and if we're not [inaudible 00:21:34.0] positive within a few days then turn it off. Joe: Let me just summarize and differentiate the business model between owning your own physical brands folks and the drop ship store. Again I just want to wrap it up and summarize if you're not wrapping up a summarized. So building the shop … you're building the store, you're spending a total $2,000 budget all in and that includes advertising. With a physical products brand, you're doing that as well but you're ordering the product from let's say China, for instance, waiting for that product to come in, putting it up on Amazon, spending some money to get traffic either to Amazon from Facebook or some other source and doing sponsored ads in Amazon. So far we've spent, we've spent, we've spent, we've spent, and then you're going to get paid out every two weeks from Amazon. Your advertising budgets are going to take and blow your credit cards once a month. With Drop Ship Lifestyle or drop shipping, you're not spending any money on product. You're building the website and you're building … doing the marketing campaign. And it sounds like if somebody is going to take … you start getting orders right away after a few days, weeks of advertising again even your advertising budget is with your credit card and you're not getting … you don't have to pay that depending upon the time or the month when you launch for another 30 days. So you're getting the revenue from the sale before you have to buy the product and you're just sending the … do you send an invoice, an ACH wire, or do you—? Anton: No. Joe: Or some of your manufacturers take a credit card as well? Anton: Most of them are credit card. So whenever we can we go credit card and so yeah the points if anybody's into that is amazing. I haven't paid for travel in like 12 years so you'll want to use rewards cards. Joe: There was a time when I was spending … the highest I ever spent was 50,000 a month on Google Ad Words when I had my business and we furnished our house, we took vacations, everything for the points. Now let me just talk to buyers and sellers, particularly sellers out there when it comes to points. Something like this if you've got a drop ship business and you're doing it this way that Anton's talking about, if you are spending $100,000 a month on inventory and advertising, of course, you've got to pay for it in advance. Anton: Mm-hmm. Joe: So … but if that's 100,000 points if you use a point converter or a cash back credit card. That is what's called an owner benefit. Anton, I want you to pay attention to this and talk to all the folks that you train. Anton: Okay. Joe: That is an owner benefit that you should track because if and when you sell your business it needs to be added back to the add back schedule as an owner benefit and can boost the overall value of your business. I just launched one recently and he travels the world and does it all with … no, I'm sorry he buys all of his inventory with credit cards and that gives him an enormous amount of cash back. I think it was something let's call it $25,000 cash back over the course of the trailing 12 months. If your business is listed at a three time multiple everyone that adds $75,000 to the overall value of the business. For buyers, if you're looking at businesses and you're looking for some instant equity if a broker didn't list cash back points or anything like that and sometimes you've got like Anton said travel you can convert those. With our American Express there's we've got a certain number of points and we can convert that to cash. That's the amount we're talking about. But that could be instant equity in a business for a buyer if you're taking over drop ship model and your broker didn't do that or the broker that listed the business didn't do that you can. Okay, how much are you spending? What kind of points? You know using credit cards do the math and it's definitely instant equity. Okay, sorry long rant there. The biggest thing for me and so when I'm talking to buyers and mostly sellers and I'm going to say this for the folks that are listening the biggest mistake you can do … make is not pay attention to the details of your financials and documentation. A little thing like that, we all work so hard when we've got our own businesses to drive top line revenue and talk oh I'm doing this many millions in revenue. That doesn't matter as much as the bottom line number and when you pay attention to that that actually brings more value when you do decide to exit your business. Okay, Joe is done ranting. All right so other than Google Shopping what other marketing channels are there in terms of paths to growing the business itself? Anton: So the ones that we … I'd say use every time so it varies, so you find some industries where there are certain placements but whenever we're building a new store we will be obviously Google is our number one. Organic traffic is big. We used to invest a lot of money into it trying to rank major keywords. We don't do that anymore. What we do now is just focus on site and make sure that all of our product pages especially once we know which our top 20% of products are going to be, we make sure those are extremely unique and optimized because that's just free clicks and free sales. So organic is big for us. Bing, believe it or not, we advertise. It's probably 10% of our overall marketing budget. Joe: I'm not sure if I believe it or not. Okay, 10% all right. Anton: We're putting some money there. There are people, they're sales. Joe: Okay. Anton: We can't scale it. Every time we try to scale it it breaks. But add a small budget and it works. Facebook we are big on but only for remarketing and the reason being we do sell high ticket products. So to put an ad for a chandelier in front of someone that likes I don't know what interior design they're not going to buy it so … retargeting though we are big there. YouTube ads actually work really well for us as far as remarketing also. And then one of our other ones that budget depends on what industry are in and what's out there but advertising on other content sites that already exist. So you can call it influencer marketing but it could either be a business, website, a content site, it could be someone's personal content site. But either doing like paid promoted articles or taking out ads in the sidebar. Either way but trying to form relationships with people that already have the audience there and then paying them to either have them talk about us or to allow us to put a little banner on their website. Joe: I got you. And a lot of the stuff you just talked about, we've had guest experts on that do YouTube ads or might do influence or marketing things that of that nature. Are you generally finding the people that you work with managing all of this themselves early on how … somebody that doesn't have the expertise to do that what do you advise them to do? Anton: Typically if they're starting from scratch and they want to build a business and with this type of business I don't recommend hiring anybody from day one. I recommend like learning at least … look do it yourself and get it profitable and then okay look for someone that might want to run your content side of the business or look for an agency that can manage your Ad Words but I really … for most people when they're starting I say do it yourself. It's easy to throw money away and I made this mistake early on with my e-commerce businesses. We were profitable but when I look back I spent all this money in like fees into all these companies and I didn't know enough to know that I was grossly overpaying for a lot of things. So yeah lesson learned. Joe: That's the beauty of experience and age and wisdom right? You get to remember all your mistakes and what you might have done differently. Talk to me about Amazon. Anybody got drop ship businesses that are reselling on Amazon and if so how do you do that? Anton: I'm sure the answer is yes. I'll tell you we don't do any drop shipping on Amazon haven't even ad … I used to advertise there back when they allowed Amazon product ads to go to external sites. But that's been gone for a few years. Yeah, there's some people that I work with, some of them are students at Drop Ship Lifestyle that have their own drop ship stores that do what I've spoken about earlier where they'll introduce their own brands into the mix of their drop ship store. And typically when they do that they'll also have their products on Amazon because they know that people at least a percentage of them will also with Amazon and look there. With the type of brands that we work with typically when we are getting approved to sell for them and we're signing the agreements, one of them says that you're not going to sell on 3rd party platforms like companies like e-Bay. They don't want to sell us to sell there. Same thing with Amazon reason being is because if they're going to have their products there they usually do that internally. A lot of the times because the items are usually expensive and margin heavy they're not the type of items that people are private labeling and putting on there. So it's really at this point I'm sure this will change in the future but at this point, it hasn't been a huge factor because I think our price points are higher and again the items are usually like too big to be sending over to FBA and paying storage fees. The numbers don't work at this point with that model. Joe: Do you foresee any danger as a drop shipper that the Amazon business model is going to be a challenge for drop shippers because those manufacturers can go directly to them and guys like me anytime I want to buy something I go to Amazon first? Anton: Yeah I do. And I'll say at this point I'm not like freaking out like oh my God like I … were gone but I do think that five years from now 10 years from now, if Bezos gets what he wants then Amazon will have the entire market share of everything. So I … you know I've talked about this before but I think like we'll see. Like that's definitely where they want to go. I think they're pretty upfront about it so unless someone else steps in or unless the government breaks them up from getting too big then yeah we'll see what the market looks like. Again I don't think it's coming anytime soon but maybe call it 10 years we'll see what things look like then. But I'm in no way confident that they're going to just back down and say we have enough. They're not about to stop. Joe: Yeah well I think your approach to larger ticket items that higher value, not easy to ship, not easy to store at an Amazon warehouse kind of eliminates … they can't have everything right? I mean Jeff— Anton: They're not now they haven't. I mean they've taken over pretty much every market in that call like $100 sub priced product range and even electronics; like I buy some of my electronics from them. But as far as the types of products that we sell it's been that one area that they haven't really stepped into at least not in a big way. Like they sell basically … at this point, they sell cheap versions of the stuff that we sell. So you know if you search for a lot of the brands we sell they wouldn't sell for those brands but they'll sell like an inferior type product I would say at this point. Joe: I got you. I know that I say the first place I go is Amazon and I rarely buy anywhere else but them but when I find a certain brand I will go to that website and I would certainly buy from them. And I know my wife will certainly buy from the brand manufacturer or in many cases we built our house three years ago and she was that person looking at 30 different websites for the lighting fixtures and probably brought from one of you guys at one point. Anton: Probably, but for anybody that's like thinking about that and kind of like worried like well yeah that probably is going to happen. I think one of the biggest things you could do is look at sites now that are … I don't know I would say going above and beyond like don't do the bare minimum as far as content and as far as usability and as far as like everything; the whole experience. One website that I buy from all the time is the bnh.com. They sell you photo and video equipment. And they do have a huge store and warehouse in the middle of Manhattan but most of their orders now are online. And I think that all that stuff that I buy from them I could buy from Amazon and I buy it from Amazon all the time but I like the experience there better for that type of product. So if anyone wants inspiration check out B&H and see how they do things. They do a great job. Joe: Thanks. So I think this whole podcast has been inspirational for those that are looking to build an e-commerce business in this case specifically drop shipping. It's a great alternative to the risk and cash outlay of building your own brand. Any last thoughts in terms of what the benefits are anybody should think about in terms of drop shipping versus e-commerce? Anton: Yeah I think for anybody even if you're listening to this and you're like oh that sounds good but I already have half a million dollars in the bank and I just want to build a brand. I still think you could do both simultaneously and it's a great idea to start with a drop ship model in whatever industry you want to private label or manufacture in. Start drop shipping, build a website, build an audience, get sales, see what people buy, see what they like and don't like about products. You'll have all that market data you'll be making money and then you can go ahead and start your own brand with all the information and really increase your chances of just hitting on your own bit. Joe: That's great Anton. Your website is DropShipLifestyle.com you're helping folks understand the drop ship model. What's the best way for them … anyone to reach you that want to chat? Should they just go to the website is there a—? Anton: Website, DropShipLifestyle.com click contact, and everything is linked up off there. Joe: Fantastic. I appreciate your time today. I look forward to doing business with you in the future. Anton: Definitely. Thank you, Joe. Links and Resources: DropShip Lifestyle Contact DropShip Lifestyle

How to Share when they Don't Care

Play Episode Listen Later Feb 14, 2019 41:24

Gary Myers: Hi, my name is Gary Myers. Joe Fontenot: I'm Joe Fontenot. This is the Answering The Call podcast. This is the podcast where we talk to people who are answering God's call. Today's guest is Kyle Beshears. Kyle talks about a new word, new word to me at least. Kyle was here at the Defend Conference, and the word he taught me was apatheism. Gary: Apatheism? Joe: Apatheism. Gary: That's a new one on me as well. Joe: It is, it's not fruit, it's something else, which he's going to tell us about now. Gary: Let's hear from Kyle. Joe: Okay, so Kyle you've said something that doesn't get said often and it's called apatheism. In some ways we can guess what it's about, but I think your explanation is much more helpful. What is apatheism? Kyle Beshears: Yeah, the word's a bit intuitive. You can parse two words out of there, apathy and theism, a clever way of trying to describe a feeling of indifference towards questions related to God's existence is how I would initially define apatheism. There's a ... I don't know how to describe it, the-ism we think has to do with the way we think, right? Kyle Beshears: It's a belief, it's cognitive, but I think apatheism affects our heart as well, and how we feel, our emotions. Apatheism is not just finding questions related to God's existence intellectually or being apathetic to them intellectually, it's also an affective reaction to questions about God. I might define apatheism as when a person believes questions about God are unimportant and they feel that way as well. It's both a belief and a feeling. Joe: Okay, so let's work that out. Like a role-play, right? Your apatheist, I am me, and I say, "Kyle, I would like to talk to you about God." What do you say? How do you act? Kyle: Well me personally I would be polite, but to have the conversation ... Joe: A kind apatheist. Kyle: Yeah, yeah, you seem like a nice guy Joe, but in reality I really don't want to have this conversation. I find it as uninteresting as arguing over whether or not Pepsi is to be preferred to Coca-Cola, right? It's just not an interesting conversation to me. Joe: It's sort of irrelevant. Kyle: Irrelevant, yeah, I don't find that God affects my life, my relationships, my future, and I don't think ... Maybe he affects you in a personal way, but that's that's you, that's idiosyncrasy, that's unique to each person. To me, I don't care. Joe: Do you think it's a generational thing? Kyle: Thinking through it, I think it's probably more prevalent in younger generations, so millennial's and younger. I've just been reclassified as zenial, so I guess we're in between generation Y and the millennial's. Joe: Okay. Kyle: I think probably you're starting to see it in Y, in zenial's, millennial's, and whoever comes next. I don't think it would be fair to assign apatheism to just younger generations. I think you see wherever there is a decrease in religious attendance and church services, wherever you see an increase in religious un-affiliation, I think you'll find apatheism there. Kyle: Apatheism may even be ... You might be able to find apatheism more geographically that generationally, right? Pockets in the Northeast in the United States, Western Europe, Canada, I think you'll find that apatheism is more prevalent with those people than in say southeastern United States or majority world contexts like South America and Africa where church is growing, you'll find a complete opposite. Joe: Where do you think apatheism comes from or what causes it? Is there an easy answer for that? Kyle: No, I don't think there's an easy answer for that. I think you can trace the beginnings of apatheism maybe as far back as pre-Socratic thinkers. You have this movement in ancient Greece where some philosophers are starting to move away from polytheism and they're moving towards this ... It's not monotheism, but it's God is everything and God is fate, right? Kyle: The problems you're having with your crops or your relationships or your wealth are not because of fickle gods, it's because of fate, so why should you care about the gods? You see an apathy towards the comings and goings of the gods, but it's not replaced with the apatheism we experience. Their apathy was a virtue like you come to just recognize that you can't control fate. Kyle: The moment you truly understand that, you'll find bliss, you'll find happiness. I think the kind of apatheism we experience today starts to rise in the Enlightenment period where people are rejecting Christian theism in exchange for agnosticism, which is we can't know if God exists. Deism, which means a God exists, but he or it doesn't really have any direct impact on our daily lives. Joe: Set it and forget it thing. Kyle: That's right, yeah, the popular phrase is the absentee landlord. Atheism, no, I'm unconvinced that God exists, right? There's this a line from one of those Enlightenment era atheists named Denise Diderot. I'm going to pull it up real quick. Sorry, you'll have to edit this part. Joe: No, it's okay, we don't edit, this will all be in there. Kyle: Oh, okay, great. Joe: They're listening to us right now. Kyle: Good, good, so Denise Diderot, famous Enlightenment atheist thinker, and he distills apatheism in his time in this one sentence. He says, "It is very important not to mistake hemlock for parsley, but to believe or not believe in God is not important at all," right? If you don't know much about hemlock, you should not put that on your tacos. Joe: That's the stuff that kills you. Kyle: It will kill you, yeah. Joe: Painfully. Kyle: Hemlock and parsley look similar, right? Diderot is saying it's more important that you discern between what can go on a salad and what will kill you than warrior fret about whether or not God exists. Joe: I feel like that betrays this huge idea already that God doesn't exist. If he exists, it's more of the idea of God exists. The same emotional attachment we might have like a small kid has to a blanket, do you know what I mean? This makes me feel good, I almost feel like in once sense what he's saying is forget about the blanket, it's just a toy thing. Joe: There's real issues, something could kill you and not kill you. The irony there is that what happens when you die? It really does matter if there is a God or not. Kyle: It is deeply ironic with this question, what happens when you do mistake the hemlock for parsley and you end up dying? Joe: Right. Kyle: Well, now the question of God's existence becomes of the ultimate importance. Joe: Right. Kyle: Yeah. Joe: Yeah. How do you put apatheism on the scale with atheism? I think a lot of people know atheism, whether it's the new atheists which are angry and want to pick the fight, or whether it's just the person who says look, "I'll be honest with you, I've thought through this, I don't think God exists. I'll talk to you about it, but it's not something I talk about a lot." Joe: Then you've got this new class or this newer category, newer to me, apatheism, which is just like this is completely irrelevant. Where do you put those on a line as far as the easiest people to talk to? Kyle: Yeah, intuitively you would think apatheism has a lot to do with atheism. If you don't think God's existence is important, well then you must not believe in him. That could very well be the case for a lot of people, but actually I think there is something that an atheist and a theist has more in common than does an apatheist, and that is interest in questions relating to God's existence. Kyle: If you were to ask a Christian theist, "Do you believe God exists?" They would say, "Yes, of course I do." Then you would be able to have a conversation, "Well, what is that God like? What are the implications of that belief?" If you were to ask an atheist, "Do you believe God exists?" They would say, "Well no, I don't," and then you'd be able have a conversation. "Well, what does God's nonexistence mean," right? Kyle: Now if you were to go to apatheist and ask them, "Do you believe God exists?" They're going to shrug their shoulders and say, "I don't care." That indifference drains any conversational power out of the whole dialogue, right? They won't have the conversation with you, because they don't care to have the conversation. In one sense atheists and theists should both share a deep concern about apatheism, because both the atheists and the theists find questions relating to God's existence important, because they understand the ramifications of answering the positive, theism, or negative, atheism. Joe: That's really interesting, I never thought about that before. An atheist should be concerned about the ramifications of an apatheist. Kyle: Absolutely. Joe: Clearly a theist of the Christian should be concerned, because we want everyone to be restored to God and love God and have a happy life. The atheist should be too, tell me why. Kyle: Yeah, I mean a simple scenario, who's going to buy Richard Dawkins books, right? Let's say Richard Dawkins publishes a new book, which is a very compelling, intellectual argument against the existence of God. The people that are going to buy those books are people interested in the question of God's existence. The atheist, the theist, and even the agnostic are sitting in a room having a conversation about God, because they're all interested in whether or not he exists, and what God is like if he does, and what it means if he doesn't, or even what it means if we can't know. Kyle: The apatheist is on the opposite side of the room looking over at those three having the conversation thinking they're wasting their time, it's completely useless. Yeah, I think that should be deeply concerning to atheists and agnostics as well as theists. That maybe rounds us back to the question that you asked earlier, which of those do I find most difficult to engage with the gospel, the atheist or the apatheist? Kyle: Unequivocally, I think it's the apatheist, because at least when you're approaching atheism, you have a mutually common interest in whether or not God exists. Joe: Yes, okay, so I have a very specific question about this. I'm going to come back to that in just a second. Before I get to there, what are we talking about? Are there a lot of people that are apatheistic? How do you count, find, survey apatheistic people? Would they even care? Then how do they compare to atheists or agnostics? What's the ratio? What's the population? What are we talking about? Kyle: Yeah, this is a frustrating thing looking into apatheism. It's impossible to tell how many apatheists there are in any given culture. The reason is because if you go to polling data, so things like American Religious Value surveys or Pew Forum or Gallup that ask questions about religious identification, those pollsters do not double-click into the reasons for why people don't believe. Kyle: Very quickly we might say, "Well I know where all the apatheists are, they're in the nones, the N-O-N-E-S," right? The religiously unaffiliated, those people who when asked if they have a religious affiliation, they say, "No, none." Apatheism is not restricted to the nones, and there may be nones that are not apatheistic, right? You may just not have a religious affiliation, but it doesn't mean you don't find the question of God's existence important. Kyle: Further, to complicate matters, you can find apatheism in people who identify as a religious tradition. You can say, "I'm Jewish, I'm Christian," but they don't really care what that means. Joe: For sure, I mean, there's so many, not so many, but I already at the top of my head think of so many secular Jews who are popular in the media or whatever. I feel like in a lot of ways they don't really care. They're Jewish by culture and heritage, but not religion in the spiritual sense. Kyle: Here we're in New Orleans, I'm in Mobile in Alabama. We're in the South, the primary religious affiliation is going to be some kind of Protestantism or Catholicism, right? That doesn't necessarily mean that they care about what that means, it just means that, that's the household they grew up in, that's the tribe to which they belong. Kyle: Apatheism permeates both religious affiliation and non-religious affiliation, so it makes it very tricky to try to gauge. Joe: Where does apatheism as a proper noun end, and where does all the category, whatever you would call this, and maybe this is apatheism, all the category of say the people that come and sit in the pew, but don't do anything, do you know what I mean? They don't tithe, they're not active, they're coming for some reason, maybe it's social, maybe it's guilt, maybe it's who knows? Joe: We all know this exact group of people and they're usually a large group of people, is that apatheism? If not, is apatheism something different or more extreme maybe? Kyle: Yeah, so I think what we're walking around now is the difference between apatheism and what's called practical atheism or pragmatic atheism. Practical atheism is as old as the Bible itself. We hear Scripture lament that the fool says in his heart, there is no God. Now that doesn't mean that they were actually atheist. The fool doesn't say, "There is no God." The fool says in his heart, so there's a dissonance between what this fool believes and how this fool acts, right? Kyle: This is the height of foolishness that you believe that there is a God or you acknowledge there's a God and you recognize that the implications of God's existence affects your ethical moral behavior, but you act as if he doesn't exist. I think for a lot of our experience in the church, what we're seeing is practical atheism. Kyle: It's a profession and even maybe a vague belief of God's existence, but a refusal to recognize and act upon the implications of that belief. How that's different from apatheism, is that the apatheist doesn't care about God's existence or nonexistence, he or she could care less. The practical atheism's apathy is sympathetic, it's not real. Kyle: An apatheists apathy towards God's existence is real. To me, from my experience and my readings, this is very new. This is a very new thing in the life of the church, not one that it's had to approach perhaps ever. Joe: Yeah, you had mentioned earlier that you and Tala Anderson have written or presented a paper on this. Kyle: Yeah, that's correct, so Tala Anderson is a professor of philosophy over at Oklahoma Baptist University. He and I and a couple of other folks presented papers on apatheism at the American Academy of Religion in Denver this past November. The goal of that presentation with those papers is to define apatheism from an evangelical, Christian perspective, and then to propose ways in which we might approach it as gospel believing evangelistic, Christians who are first concerned that you don't care about God's existence. Kyle: Second, that we would like to see you come to know the Lord Jesus the way we do. Yeah, we felt it was one of these conversations that the church ought to start having, right? Especially as the United States continues to secularize in an unique way from the rest of the West. A little slower than Canada and Western Europe and a little more diverse, right? Kyle: We're seeing an increase in interest in neopaganism and the occult, which is completely unexpected. Joe: Interesting, yeah, where did that come from? Kyle: Apathy, right? Joe: Yeah. Kyle: We are secularizing in a different way, but yeah, as a challenge to the gospel, we thought it would be a wise thing to begin, at least bringing it to the public mind. Joe: Yeah, getting the word out there. Kyle: Most people experience apatheism, they know it, but they don't know it. Joe: Yeah. Kyle: Right? The second you say even the word apatheism, people go, "Oh yeah." Joe: Right. Kyle: I know exactly what you're talking about. Then it makes that thing that was intangible, tangible. Joe: Yeah. Kyle: If it's tangible, well now we can talk about it, because we can identify it, we can see it, and we can prayerfully think through how we ought to approach it. Joe: This brings me to the question, one of the questions I wanted to ask specifically was how do you start a conversation with an apatheist? An atheist, right? That's easy, there's so many entry points. It might be intimidating, but it's clear there are a lot of ways in. An apatheist says, "I don't really want to talk about this." How do we talk about something someone doesn't want to talk about? Kyle: Yeah, this is the tricky part, right? The word that's probably floating around in people's minds with a conversation like this is well that's apologetics, right? I know what I need to do, I need to go bone up on apologetic methods, arguments for God's existence. If they don't find God important, well maybe if I argue that he exists, they'll find that he's important. Kyle: Unfortunately, that presupposes something that's not there, that they're interested in having that conversation, right? Joe: Right. Kyle: I certainly don't fault people, because as creatures created in the image and likeness of God designed to have a relationship with our creator, we are by default we have interest in God's existence, right? Thinking that everybody thinks the way or feels the way we do about God is intuitive, right? Certainly, that's the model we received from Scripture thinking about the context and the time in which it was written. Kyle: Everybody thought God or gods existence is in the little g, like multiple gods, is important. We've built our apologetic models off of that, and rightly so as a biblical foundation. For example, the most famous apologetic model that's cited from the New Testament is Paul's Areopagus sermon in Acts. When he goes into Athens and he's preaching the gospel and people find it interesting, so they invite him to the Areopagus or Mars Hill in the King James. Kyle: They want him to present this new philosophy they're so unfamiliar with. As he's walking there, he passes a pantheon, so he sees a bunch of statues of gods. He notices that there's one statue to the unknown God. They are so superstitious, that they wanted to make sure they didn't offend the one god that they might not have remembered in their little collection there. Kyle: This one God is really interesting, because there's something special about him, right? He seems to proceed the other gods, there's something more powerful, more mysterious about him. Paul notices that they're very religious and he leverages that religious interest. He starts, "Men of Athens, I see that in every way you are very religious." Kyle: He presupposes that they both share a minimally common interest in theism, even though they are polytheists and he is a Christian. At least they both think that God's existence is important. From that story we've built our apologetic methods, have we not? I mean, I find it very rare to read a book on apologetics without that model coming up. Kyle: That's so important, because it's so good, but what if we live in an Athens without a statue to the unknown God? Joe: Yeah. Kyle: What if we live in a society now where there may have been a statue to an unknown God, but it's come under disrepair for being neglected, vines are growing on it, soot, it's been chiseled away, right? People don't care about the Pantheon anymore, how could Paul have started, "Men of Athens, I see that in every way you're very religious." They would say, "What do you mean? No we're not, we don't care about what you have to say." Joe: It's like in the one hand you've got we're in a car and they're in a car. We have gas in our car and we're going north. They have gas in their car going south, and we're trying to get them to turn their wheel and come north, the right way. This new scenario that you're talking about here is like we're in a car and we're going north and they don't have any gas. Kyle: Right. Joe: It's like a totally, foundationally different issue. Kyle: That's correct, yeah, so that's why I argue that it's far more challenging to present the gospel to an apatheist than it is an atheist or an agnostic, because you are robbed of that minimally common belief. Not only are you robbed of that minimally common belief, but the question, do you believe in God, is zapped of its power because of indifference and apathy to it. Kyle: That question is meaningless to an apatheist, in fact, they may even feel negative towards it, because they're so tired of being asked it, right? Joe: Right, so you're starting at a deficit almost? Kyle: Exactly. Joe: Yeah. Kyle: You have to take a step backwards in just recognizing that we don't share that minimally common interest is crucial to approaching apatheism, yeah. Joe: Excuse me, what should I do if I've ... I have this friend and he's apatheist, I'm just going to say, and I have a few friends that I already know fit. Say they're not friends, say we don't have a relationship already, is that the key? Is it having a relationship? Even then, maybe they don't care to talk about this. I'm the kind of person, jumping into me for a minute, I'm the kind of person that I will get confused like sports. Joe: I'm like which one is the football and the basketball? I'm at that level, right? Extremely ignorant when it comes to sports, just a real idiot, and so somebody wants to come and talk to me at sports, I'm just like I will smile and be nice and can't wait for you to stop talking about this, right? How would a person come to me and talk about sports in a way that's interesting? Joe: How do I go to a person and talk about something spiritual when they just simply don't care? Kyle: Yeah, so in that scenario what I would say is you are interested in sports, you just don't know it yet. Joe: Oh, good one, I love this, please tell me more. Kyle: How do I get you to recognize that you actually are interested in sports? Well, I would begin by finding what are you interested in period, right? When I say that the classical methods that we've developed from apologetics, we've presupposed something that perhaps we don't have any more. What I'm not saying is well we'll just nuke apologetics altogether, right? Kyle: We're just going to start over again, that's absolutely foolish throwing the baby out and the bathwater, right? Joe: You've got nothing. Kyle: No, there are people in the history of Christianity thinking theologically, philosophically and approaching their cultures, that I think anticipated this type of thing. I think we look to, in their technical terms, individuals that have explored presuppositional or existential approaches to apologetics. Things like the moral argument can be very helpful here. Kyle: What we do is we start from the bottom up, rather than the top down, right? The to down approach is you believe in God, I believe in God, but you believe in God in a way that does not align with reality, so let me explain to you how. Let me argue that, let's go through your objections, and then boom, we get to the gospel. Joe: Which even works for an atheist, because you would say, "You believe in the value of this concept God, you just believe that it's false." Kyle: That's correct, yeah. Joe: Right. Kyle: Then you deal with objections and then get to a gospel presentation. With the apatheists though, I think you have to flip the script a bit, you have to start with the bottom up. We start with the individual, and I've found that most people are interested in themselves. Joe: Yeah, sure. Kyle: Via fallen nature that we are our favorite thing to think about. When I'm having conversations with apatheists, the place I start with is not God. He is the goal of course, but the place I start with is them. I ask them, "What do you find interesting? What drives you? What are your fears? What are your hopes? What are your desires? What do you think is virtuous? What do you think is unvirtuous? What do you think is good character? What do you think is a character flaw?" Kyle: Naturally most of those conversations go towards political things. What I try to do is I try to steer the conversation towards issues of morality. Then employ what Francis Schaeffer identified as pressure points and worldviews. Things that are held inconsistently or ideologically, and really push on them and ask, "Why? Why is that?" Kyle: Very quickly, for example, using the moral argument for why murder is wrong. You would ask a person like, "Why do you think murder is wrong?" The person would say, "Well, it's not good to kill somebody, because you're taking away that person from their family." "Well I agree with that, but what if a person, another person believes that taking away that person from their family is good, is a good thing, and they have one reason or another? Well who's to say that you shouldn't murder that person?" Kyle: Well the conversation then goes to there's governments let's say, right? You shouldn't murder, murder is illegal, so I guess that's why I think murder is wrong. Well what if there is a government that decides murdering is good, right? Joe: We've had that before. Kyle: We've had those before in history, right? Then what do we do, right? You argue this until you're in this theoretical land of a one universal government that determines whether or not murder is wrong. Then well you can imagine that universal government decides at one point no, genocide is good, so now what do we do? Well I don't know, what do we do? Kyle: That's a pressure point in their worldview, they can't explain why they believe murder is objectively wrong. Joe: Yeah, I think this is interesting, because a lot of the stuff we learned in apologetics, we've essentially shuffled the deck on. We're still using all those cards, we're using all those approaches. We're using all those ideas and concepts. We're using the reductio ad absurdum, the logic, like take this to its logical end and where does this take us based on what you said you, etc. Joe: We're doing it in a way, like you said, which I think is so critical, we're doing it in a way that starts with something they care about. Kyle: Right, that's exactly right, yeah, and notice the entire time I was having, we were having this very speedy, truncated vision of that conversation, I didn't bring up God once. Joe: Right. Kyle: I didn't need too, that wasn't the point in the conversation at the beginning stage. Then the question becomes well, why can you say murder is objectively wrong? I don't know. That moment, the, I don't know is called doubt, right? Doubt, when used sometimes, is quite advantageous. You've caused them now to think critically about their worldview. Kyle: Soren Kierkegaard has a great line about doubt, using it in this kind of a way. He says, "That doubt is a higher form than any objective thinking, because it presupposes the latter, but it has something more, a third, which is interest." Joe: Yes, because doubt is not simply, I don't know, like agnosticism in the little a, agnosticism. It's not just simply a vacuum, it's an out of balance vacuum. I feel uncomfortable, because something needs to be back in line. Kyle: That's right, so this is Kierkegaard's point. Doubt's a good thing in these kinds of situations, because if you're apathetic about your faith, if you're apathetic about a position, no amount of questioning or propositions is going to zap you out of that apathy until you're interested. Obviously you can't be apathetic toward something and interested toward something simultaneously, it's impossible, it defies both terms. Kyle: How do you get somebody from apathy to interest? Kierkegaard says, get them to doubt something about the thing that they're apathetic about, or that is related to the thing they're apathetic about. Then you have interest, and interest is important, because it zaps the apathy of its power, right? That one thing that they were completely disinterested in and indifferent towards just a moment ago, now becomes something that they have to seek out. Joe: Yes, doubt becomes like the fulcrum gets them back into the interest area. Kyle: That's right, that's right. Joe: That's very interesting. Kyle: At this point, in these moments of doubt, they start to think objectively. Now for the first time maybe in a long time they're interested. This is when you make a gospel presentation. This is when we can re-approach apologetics in the way that perhaps we're more familiar with, right? We've not assumed the presupposition that these men of Athens are very religious in every way. Kyle: We've gotten them interested and then now we can move forward. Joe: Really, unless a person is clinically depressed or something like this, unless a person is really just disconnected and not motivated to live, they are interested in something, in things. They have ambitions, they have motivations, and I feel like what you're saying is we just need to do the work of finding those. They are not being upfront in that kind of way in the way that an atheist is. Joe: An atheist says, "I'm very upfront about what I disbelieve." Somebody who is apathetic in this way says, "I'm not really gonna tell you in that way," right? Kyle: That's right. Joe: This conversation is boring to me, but it's not boring. It's just the framework of it's boring, and what you're saying is you come in with this back door, you find the doubt, find what they're interested in, expose the doubt, and then the new interest emerges, the relevance to the real conversation. Kyle: That's right, if you've struck a vein that truly causes them to doubt, interest inevitably comes. Nobody's ever doubted something and then not felt some kind of interest towards why they doubted that thing, right? It's a very, very powerful tool to use, it just needs to be used wisely and appropriately. Joe: Sure. Kyle: Perhaps even in moderation, you don't want to just throw somebody into an existential tail spin. Joe: Yeah, this is for your own good. Kyle: That's right. Yeah, I think it's a challenge, right? Joe: Yeah. Kyle: It's a challenge. Joe: It's a challenge, but it's also a way forward. I think you come across someone who is in apatheist, someone who's really just apathetic about spiritual things, you're like well I don't know what to do. I think a lot of people feel that, and having this approach first step I think is very helpful, it's very helpful for me. Kyle: Well that's good, that's good, yeah. Yeah, I would say I've had this kind of conversation quite a few times now, and one of the things that I've had told to me is that just seems like a lot. I can't even remember this conversation that we had, how am I supposed to draw up this framework the second I identify an apatheist? One, I think these types of things come with experience and practice. Kyle: Evangelism, of course, is a gifting that the Holy Spirit gives us, and it's one in which he guides us, and one that we become better with through experience. The challenge I would say is well don't worry about being able to draw on this and other things that you've thought about before, go do it in and see if the spirit is not good and willing and able to guide you through these things. Kyle: Then second, in these moments we're called to be stewards. If we're stewards of the message that we're given and we rely in faith that even in our stumblings we're trying to analyze somebody's worldview, find pressure points, push on them, get them to doubt, get them to interest, that first of all this is precious to the father. This is an act of worship and it's pleasing to him. Kyle: Second, he's good to use it, so you may not zap them out of their apathy the first time, the third time, the fifth time, the 10th time. That's okay, like you may be chapters one through three in a story that's 50 chapters long. Joe: Yeah. Kyle: Yeah, it's a challenging thing, but I still think that not only are we called to through the great commission to engage all peoples, which include the apatheists, even if they're more challenging than others, it's something that the spirit indwells you to do, right? He's there with you in these moments. Joe: I think the encouraging thing to me is having the right tools, knowing what to do, at least in some sense is a good thing, but ultimately, it's not my job to save anybody. Kyle: That's right. Joe: Right? It's just my job to say why I care. Kyle: Yeah, that's right. Joe: To me that's encouraging. This has been really great Kyle, I want to ask you one last question, how are you answering God's call? What does that mean and look like and so forth in your life? Kyle: Yeah, I mean personal day-to-day, the way I'm answering God's call is through finding the ways in which he's sanctifying me, and digging in and pushing into those. It may sound very basic, but I think it's very true. This comes through repentance and through prayer and through reading Scripture and acting on the things that God has told me to do and not just filing them away in a journal. Kyle: Very recently, just being candid, the Lord has pressed on, or just pushed on my heart in prayer that he would like to see me be more aware of what repentance means and to be bolder. Answering God's call for me in this season of life is being keenly aware of what is repentance, how often do we do it? Should I be doing it more often? What does it mean to be bold, to be bold for the gospel? Kyle: It means being a good husband, it means being a good teacher. It means being a good preacher when I'm given those opportunities. I think for me, the short answer of how I'm answering God's call is he's given me talents like from the parable, talents to steward and to multiply. Every day I ask how can I multiply the talents that you have given me? Kyle: Not just to receive an answer, but to act on that answer as well. Joe: It's a great question, how can I multiply the talents that you've given me. This has been quite a joy as always. Thanks for coming to the podcast Kyle. Kyle: Yeah, Joe, thank you for having me, it was a pleasure.

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How to Make an Incredible Acquisition Using ROBS

Play Episode Listen Later Feb 5, 2019 48:00

Today's episode is the first installment of a new Quiet Light series entitled “incredible acquisitions.” In these features, we'll bring you guests involved in successful acquisitions of Quiet Light listings. This is something we're trying out in order to feed our listeners what they want to hear – so email us your feedback! Today's story is interesting because the buyer made his deal using ROBS. Rollover for business startups (ROBS) allows you to invest retirement funds from a 401(k) or individual retirement account (IRA) into your business without paying early withdrawal penalties or taxes. Rick, the new owner of the website Gunskins, a financial executive looking for another income stream to take him into retirement, knew his stuff and made the decision to make his purchase with ROBS. Today's episode is the soup to nuts of the acquisition process and will be beneficial whether you're doing this for the first or the fifth time. Episode Highlights: The process of searching – how long did it take and what approach did Rick take? The depths of the search process – how far Rick dug into each potential business. When the focus narrowed to selling physical products. How he structured the finance for the purchase. ROBS vs. SBA What was it about this particular business that stood out to Rick. The importance of the person behind the business for sale. How many other business Rick looked at in his multiple range. Whether a buyer should look beyond their multiple range. We (re)stress the importance of due diligence. Rick walks us through the first days of the takeover of the business. The transition process is never easy nor stress-free and escrow agents are key. If he had to do it again, what Rick would do differently. Rick's plans for building out. Staffing changes Rick worked through in transitioning. Rick shares last minute thoughts for buyers and sellers. Transcription: Mark: So a few years ago I had a couple of experts … I had a call with a couple of experts for a way to buy a business called ROBS, right? Roll Over for Business Startups. It's kind of an unknown or pretty little known way of financing a purchase and we mixed up in a lot of red tapes and everything else but is it a viable option to be able to buy a business and run a business and finance that purchase outside of kind of the traditional spend cash or SBA loan. I know you and I are starting up this new series within the Quiet Light Podcast called Incredible Acquisitions. We don't have a great schedule for it yet but this is the first installment of that episode and I'm excited because you've got somebody who made an incredible acquisition thus the name using ROBS. Joe: Yeah absolutely and it's an interesting one because the individual behind the purchase, a guy named Rick. He's about 50 years old; very mature high level CFO in public corporations. So he knows his stuff. He gets the numbers, he understands it. And so it's not a light decision that he decided to go with the ROBS. He was going to do an SBA but he and his wife who's a CPA decided the best approach for them would be a ROB and they purchased GunSkins, closed … I want to say about nine months ago and we talked about his search. We talked about his due diligence process. We talked about his take over, what training and transition was like and now whether or not it's a family run business. Mark: Yeah this Incredible Acquisitions is really everything soup to nuts about doing an acquisition for people that have actually done an acquisition. And hopefully, it'd be able to give some insight especially to first time acquirers or fifth time because there's more than one way to go about this. So I love the fact that this is a family run business not just because I'm a family guy but … his son is doing customer service. Joe: At 14 years old, that's right. It's amazing. Well, he's not going to pick up the phone it's all … let's go back, I launched this business or I was going to launch it. I think I did … maybe I did just before Christmas of '17 and the guy that owned the business was overpaying his brother dramatically and my advice was to let his brother go. [inaudible 00:03:02.7] before Christmas remember that? Mark: Yeah we had … I remember that I called you all sorts of names on the podcast. Joe: You did and so did his brother. He's a predator off the podcast. But we worked it out, we did an adjustment that just was logical mathematical and it made sense. And you know it turned out that the brother stayed on during the transition and training period and then literally the 14 year old spends about five to ten minutes a day doing customer service by just doing … choosing the auto responder in the chat focus … in the chat like itself. It's great. It's a great story and I think it's great to hear buyers talk about their process and what they did to purchase a business and then to have some pretty amazing growth along the way which is a good part of what he talks about. Mark: All right I got a quick message for the listeners here on the podcast. We've been doing this now for about a year and a half if I'm … or actually less than a year and a half but we have a lot of episodes and I spent some time recently going over what you guys have actually listened to and responded to. This Incredible Acquisitions is something that we're trying … a new way to do it, it's not something that we're going to be able to do every week but listen to this episode and send me an email mark@quietlightbrokerage.com. Let me know what you think. Do you want more episodes like this? We're trying to be a bit more intentional this year about the guests that we bring on to be able to feed what you guys want to hear. So let us know is this right up your alley or do you want us to continue bringing on experts to … that specialize in PPC or whatever. We're going to still have some of those guests. Let us know. Let's get into the … today's episode of Incredible Acquisitions from Rick and hear this awesome story. Joe: Hey folks it's Joe Valley from Quiet Light Brokerage and today I have a client on the phone. Actually, it's a buyer. We're starting the Incredible Series in 2019 and this is the first of Incredible Acquisitions. I have Rick on the line. We're not going to actually share Rick's name for confidentiality purposes but Rick how are you today? Rick: I'm doing good Joe. How are you doing? Joe: I'm doing fantastic. We are going to talk about the site that you bought. We're going to share that. We're going to share a lot of information. Let's start first though with a little bit of your background. What was your professional life and what is your professional life now that you own an e-commerce business? Rick: Sure, that's a great question. I graduated from college with a degree in business specifically in accounting. I spent a good chunk of my career working for public accounting firms. And then over the last 15 or so years, I've been a financial executive for mid-sized companies, companies as large as one billion in revenue. Joe: And it sounds like you are about the same age as me. Do you mind sharing how old you are so the folks out there that are in the same boat can— Rick: Yeah, no problem at all. I turned 50 this year so it was a big year for me. Joe: Oh happy birthday in 2018. Good for you. It's a big number that's for sure. All right so you were in the corporate world and at one point you said all right I'm thinking I want to get into the online world, spend a little bit more time with family and friends was that the goal and objective? Rick: Yeah I mean it started off with look I'd like to diversify where my income streams are coming from. And my wife and I over the years have done many, many passive investments in the real estate, in the stock market like many people have. And we're really looking for something that was going to be … that we could be a little more actively involved and engaged with. And at the start, I wasn't at all convinced that I needed to throw my pencil down so to speak and run out of the corporate world. I was just simply looking for another source of income that would keep me active when I wasn't sitting at my desk. Joe: I'm recalling now that your wife is a CPA or something along those lines right? Rick: Yeah. We're both CPA's. We met in world of public accounting and as you might imagine we have a stimulating dinner conversation, CPA things. Joe: Okay so for those out there that own online businesses and are thinking maybe I want to exit someday Rick and his wife are the caliber of buyers that we're going to bring to the table. They're CPA's, they understand financial documents. So as always get your financials in good shape because someone's going to come through them in great, great detail. All right let's jump into a little bit about your process of searching for a business, how long did it take you and what approach did you take? Rick: Yeah, boy it took … I got to think about this, I'm going to say we probably were looking for at least 18 months maybe two years. And you know we started off quite broad and we were looking at everything. Not just e-commerce but also brick and mortar opportunities ranging from franchises to mom and pop businesses etcetera. And as we learned more, we looked at more businesses … and this is something I can't emphasize enough because it's really important to look at a lot of businesses. There's no cost to doing that as a perspective buyer and you learn a ton. You learn how folks are doing things right and maybe how folks are … some things you might want to avoid. And so we looked at a ton of different businesses and ultimately became convinced that the e-com was the way to go for us for a variety of different reasons. I continued to be amazed by the tools and resources that are available to e-commerce businesses and the low overhead, low touch nature of e-commerce businesses and that was really attractive to us. We were real about it, we knew that we weren't just going to buy something and then it was going to magically grow on its own and increase revenues but on the other hand we wanted to use the tools and resources available to run that business as efficiently as possible. Joe: A couple of things there that you're repeating so thank you. I say it all the time I feel like I could put on my hand on my desk or my head occasionally that looking for a long time. Finding a great business … and I think you bought one of the great ones, finding a great one is like looking for a needle in a haystack inside of a ginormous haystack. So it's doubly hard. The more you look at … you looked for a year and a half, the more you look at the more you knew the right fit when it came along and you were able to act quickly. Now when we talk about look at them you're not just looking at the listing online and saying yeah that sounds good or no that doesn't sound good. You're digging in and looking at the full details of a business listing right? All the way down into the financials. Rick: Yeah absolutely and you guys at Quiet Light make it really easy to do that. You sign … I think it's still this way anyway, you sign an NDA on the front end and then as you guys post listings and send out emails or put them on your site all I have to do is click a button to receive that information. And you know I think it's important to have the courtesy to follow up with a broker and let them know what you thought of the business and whether you want to move anything forward. But just the ability and the ease with which you can do that; get the information, look at it, and start to learn about the business and about e-commerce, in general, is amazing. And I'm sure there are some other brokers out there that operate similarly but I found your … Quiet Light's process to be very clean and easy in that regard. You know for a prospective buyer it's … you make it easy to look at businesses which is great. Joe: And just for clarification purposes I'm not paying you to say that or give you any kind of discount on the commission correct? Rick: No that's … not yet maybe we'll circle back to that. Joe: Maybe someday I'll buy you a cup of coffee how is that? At what point did you narrow your focus from everything in the possible entrepreneurial world to physical product e-commerce? Because e-commerce can be a broad term meaning anything sold online but you narrowed in to physical products. At what point did you make that decision? Was it simply because you came from the CPA world and it just made sense and you were comfortable with it and not necessarily SaaS or content development? Rick: Yeah you know … I think that's a good question and I would say that there's a step before that, before I narrowed it to physical products I narrowed it to … initially, I was looking at any and all businesses that had … that were the right size and had the right cash flow that I was looking for. And my first narrowing process was really to say okay, I need … if I'm going to do this it needs to be something I'm actually interested in. And initially we were looking at everything from e-commerce businesses that sold ballet tutu's and the other ones that sold toilet products and so forth and so on and that may well be interesting to somebody, it wasn't that interesting to me. And that's where I said okay I need to narrow this up a little bit and make sure that if I'm going to move forward with something it's something that I actually have some passion around. So that's number one. As far as products it just sort of … I don't know if that was a real conscious decision on my part but we did just sort of gravitate that way and that's what appealed to us. And I would say as we got closer actually to pulling the trigger and moving forward on an LOI we found ourselves looking more and more at product companies. It's just … it's what suited us. Not to say that SaaS or something else isn't something … it's something we would definitely consider but for whatever reason, we just sprinted towards products. Joe: I got you. Well, let me get into the business itself that you bought. But before we get there and talk about that particular business can you … one of the things we always talk about is sort of get all your ducks in a row and you and your wife had determined how you're going to do … how were you going to finance and purchase this business? Can you touch on that briefly? Because we did not do an SBA loan in this situation and it was a little creative. Go ahead and talk about that for just a moment. Rick: Yeah I'm happy to because I think it was a really good solution for us. We actually started thinking … we started down the SBA route. We got SBA approval. You've got a great contact with Stephen Speer at Bank United. He's a great guy and it was a smooth approval process. We are sitting there, we had it ready to go and the more my wife and I started looking at it and thinking about it it's like oh gosh. You know I've been working as an executive for over 20 years and over the years we've put some money into 401K's, both of us and that's sitting there idle or not idle but it's in mutual funds and the stock market and so forth; basically passive investments. And we ran across a program that the IRS created called the ROBS program R-O-B-S and it stands for Roll Over Business Startup. And there's a company … first of all you need an advisor to do this but … and there's a company called Guidant Financial in Bellevue Washington that we worked with that are very professional and have a very good process to kind of help you through a ROBS financing. But essentially what you do is you use your 401K money to purchase the business … the target. And what the real beauty of the ROBS program from my perspective is that one I can take that money that's invested in the stock market that I have less control over, I can put it into a business that I have complete control over and as dividends are paid out or when I exit this business those proceeds go or those dividends go tax free back into our 401K. And we don't get taxed on that until we start going on it for retirement which is outstanding. So it was creative and I'm glad we stumbled upon it. It's been really good for us. Joe: That's a beautiful thing. Mark here at Quiet Light wrote an article on it. So folks if you Google ROBS and Quiet Light Brokerage the article will come up in Google and you'd be able to figure that out and take a look. And of course, you can Google Guidant Financial as well. They're quite well known in the space. Okay so let's talk about this particular business. It's rare in my experience and I've been doing this since 2012 that we get a listing that has a utility patent on it. When this one came across my desk it was kind of special. Not only did it have a utility patent for a SKU that was generating about 40% of the revenues but it also had the majority of the revenue coming from its own Shopify store which is in contrast to what we see with a lot of physical based e-commerce businesses these days when they're selling on Amazon as well. Amazon is just growing so quickly that no matter how much they try to build their Shopify Amazon eats up a larger percentage. So what was it about this listing … and it was called GunSkins. I like to call it stickers for guns. What was it about this one that stood out to you right away? Rick: Well, first of all, we don't refer to them as stickers; they're high quality, high performance vinyl. It's the same vinyl that folks put on the cars and trucks and buses and so forth it's … or in boats too. I have seen boats wrapped. But what it is is it's a protective camouflage wrap for your gun. Now there are products out there like Sera Coat or solutions like hydro dipping that allow you to either camouflage, protect, and or dress up your gun … those guns are your standard black. Both hydro dipping and Sera Coat allow you to do something similar to what we're doing with vinyl. The difference is that those processes are both fairly technical. They're fairly expensive. And they're also basically permanent. So you've got to really like whatever it is or whatever pattern you're putting on your gun because you're going to live with it as long as you own that gun. Joe: Correct. Rick: Our product is a vinyl wrap. It's a 3M vinyl. Again the same vinyl they put on cars, trucks, buses, and etcetera. And it's … so it's a do it yourself solution. Our prices range from 10.99 to a high of 64.99. It could generally be applied in two hours or less to your gun. And getting back to your point Joe the patent … the founder of GunSkins applied for it to receive the patent related to the vinyl kit … the template that he created for the AR15. And we happen to make vinyl wraps for a variety of different guns from pistols, to rifles, shotguns, air fifteen's, AK47's, and etcetera. But he received a patent specific to the AR15 which is pretty cool. And so yeah that's the product. Joe: Was it the product category that stood out or the price point of the business with the discretionary earnings and the multiple or the utility patent or it was the utility patent not the design patent, right? Rick: Yeah that's right. Joe: So was it that that stood out that made you go okay this is what I'm passionate about or maybe the category itself because I believe you're a hunter too, right? Rick: Yeah I mean I'm not necessarily a gun nut. I have many friends who are and there's nothing wrong with that. But yeah I have hunted and shot most of my life and so that was attractive. There was a number of things that were attractive about this business and a number of boxes that this business checked in terms of what I was looking for. We were looking for something that had strong growth potential that had multiple sales channels which this one does. We sell on Amazon. We sell through our own website on Shopify, we have eBay, Walmart, FC believe it or not and so … and they also have multiple SKUs so that's another box. And probably most importantly we were looking for a business that had a good foundation. And by that, I mean that it was built in such a way as to it has got good processes. Processes that are relatively simple but also well documented and scalable. And the other adjective I guess I would add to that is portability. So it was very easy for us … I mean I didn't have any previous e-commerce experience outside of my own experience as a consumer to come in and get our hands around this business, understand it very quickly. That's not to say the learning curve wasn't steep. It was quite steep and we expected that but the founder of the business just did a really good job setting it up. That's the number one biggest factor. You know the other things are boxes I need to check like interesting category and the patent and things like that. But the number one box for us was this thing has good bones to it. We're dealing with a seller that has … that's trustworthy and has high integrity. And by the way, you know … and again I'm not being paid for this but also a broker that has the same characteristics, particularly on your first e-commerce purchase. I think that we could go and find our way a little bit easier now having gone through what we've gone through in terms of the acquisition and running this business that wouldn't be as important. But on the first purchase, I think it's critical. Joe: Yeah. Rick: You feel good about the seller. You got to feel good about the broker. And if you don't I wouldn't do the deal frankly. Joe: I agree. We've got a big thing here at Quiet Light and that is follow your gut. And you've got to. You're putting a great deal of your life savings on the line and you might only have one chance and you want to get it right. So for the business owners out there what Rick is saying is that who you are matters a great deal. You want to get yourself put together. You want to get those financials in great shape. You want to be a professional. You want to be somebody that you would buy a business for. There's a lot more to it than just those gross revenue numbers and trends. The person behind the business is often what I see makes the difference in the sale or not. And believe it or not in a 3.0 multiple to a 3.2 multiple you do make a difference. On that point, though Rick this was a good strong multiple. We went out at 3 ½ times multiple I believe … gosh was there any negotiation on the price? Folks I didn't look this up before we decided to— Rick: [inaudible 00:22:30.4] down just a little bit. But yeah it was a 3 plus multiple. Joe: Yeah I think we went out at 3.5 and it was pretty darn close. We're not going to talk actual numbers. We'll just talk those numbers. We won't talk dollars but did you look at many listings that were in that multiple range before making a decision on this one or did you go oh wow that's high I need to look anyway? What was your initial response to the multiple? Rick: Yeah well my initial response was well that's high and … but it was an interesting business. And as I dug into it it's like okay I mean … and as I started checking off those boxes that I was talking about it's like okay well maybe this is just the [inaudible 00:23:09.8] as I went through the diligence process I could see where there is opportunity. I think that the founder and the owner … he was a brilliant guy. He created this idea. He created this business. He built the foundation but everybody that comes to the table brings with them a different set of skills. And when I was looking at it through my eyes I thought okay well I can do X, Y, and Z, and I think leverage this opportunity that much more. So yeah my initial reaction was that's high. I ultimately got comfortable with it and it was the right deal for us. Joe: Yeah. You know it's the valuation process I think with this particular listing because it was mostly Shopify, 60%, 70% Shopify at the time, they get to own their own customers; more value. It had a three plus year track record; more value. It had a patent and 40% of the revenue came from that SKU that the patent was on; more value. The lower the risk, the higher the multiple and in this case there were multiple conference calls. I cannot recall if there are multiple offers. Again I didn't really prepare for this I just wanted it to be a casual conversation. Rick: You told me there were. Joe: There we go. So you remember I don't. You see I've done 20 deals. And I wouldn't lie I mean the reality is that we're going to be forthright and honest with every single person we work with. So even at that 3.5 my point everyone is that sometimes the first thing you look at is the multiple and then you make your decision and that's not always the best choice. In this case with Rick, you've had what 20% month over month of growth since you bought – Rick: Yeah. Joe: Okay so simple math is … go ahead and double check it up for me but if you've got a business listed at a 4 time multiple you buy it at a 4 time multiple and you've got 25% year over year growth and that sticks after you buy the business you're going to make your money back in 2.7 years. In Rick's case, that's going to go down dramatically because of that 20% month over month growth and the multiple is a little lower than that; that 3.5-ish times maybe a little bit lower. All right so let's talk quickly about due diligence. We only have one snafu in due diligence and that was the question I think about when a business owner writes things off that are personal and they put them down as let's say office supplies which I think was the case here. You being a CPA, your wife being a CPA, you got an export of all of the expenses on the American Express or Visa credit card and literally went down through every expense and said: “Well why is it that this trip to Staples is a personal expense?” Because what we did folks is instead of making Kevin the seller go back and re-categorize every single thing that were office supplies I said okay these are normally personal expenses because Kevin worked from home. If any of you saw the listing and watched the video if you remember Rick I think he was building this house and he shot it on his … we interviewed him and he had his iPhone and he did the circular view and mountains in the distance in the background and yeah it's a beautiful. But very casual work from home, the expenses were clearly mostly personal but we went down through them item by item. Or you and your wife did and we had to work on that negotiation a little bit and we worked it out ultimately. But your due diligence process was pretty thorough right down to that level right? Rick: Yeah it was. And our approach was really to grab the P&L that you and Kevin had put together and go line by line and understand what was in each one of those categories and look at different fluctuations and variances month to month or year over year or quarter over quarter. And there's really two questions you're asking yourself if you do something like that. One is: is there anything here that should be particularly on the expense side? And then the other question is: is there something not here that should be? In other words are there expenses that you would expect to be in this business that you're not seeing anywhere and maybe they financed it personally for whatever reason. And so you're really looking for those two types of anomalies and just asking questions and make sure you understand them. Joe: Right, right for sure. Okay so we got through due diligence, we moved on to the asset purchase agreement and then closed. Can you recall the time it took roughly from the letter of intent to closing with the ROBS program that you were involved with? Rick: You know it wasn't bad. It's like anything in life it comes down to organization both theirs and ours. By theirs I mean Guidant … our advisor that helped us through that process. They have a highly structured organized process. And if you follow their process they will help you be organized as well and it will go pretty smoothly. I would say I think it was … well, I don't remember Joe. I'm going to say 45 days. Joe: That sounds about right you know for … this is in effect to cash deal and not on SBA deals. Cash deals take anywhere from 30 to 45 days to close, SBA you're going to add another 30 to 45 days. You did disappear for a little while on us there. You went silent on me if you recall and that was just an incredible job opportunity for you that you took and had to get that going and relocate briefly and make it work and you still managed to juggle that and due diligence and getting the business closed and eventually take over. So let's talk about that we closed and then there is the training and transition period where generally it's up to 40 hours over the first 90 days after closing. Talk briefly about the first few days and what it was like for you when you went to take over the business from Kevin. Rick: Well sure and just to go back very briefly Joe on what we were struggling with and you said I went silent a little bit on you. That's true and what we are struggling with was gosh this business is big enough and has enough potential is this what we want to commit ourselves to do and forget me going to the corporate job. And I struggled with that and I continue to struggle with that. You know I've been struggling with that last frankly because I think we have a pretty good balance and a pretty good system and cadence going now where I can enjoy doing both. You know helping manage the GunSkins business as well as my corporate CFO job that I have. So that's what we're struggling with and who knows that could change as the business grows or changes or what have you we'll see where that takes us. But in terms of transition, I would say we put a lot into due diligence. If I had it to do over again I would probably be better dialed in on transition and really making sure that it was clear between the buyer and seller and sellers/buyers employees or contractors who was going to do what when it was going to get done and so forth because this isn't a small business it's … I'd say a medium sized e-commerce business. We do about 20,000 orders a year through both our website and through Amazon and there's a lot of moving parts that you got to get transitioned over. Simple stuff like making sure that your postage is going to the right credit card. Making sure you've got seller central transitioned over. Making sure that PayPal is set up correctly under your name etcetera, etcetera. And I would say that … and that's probably my lack of … our lack of e-commerce experience that contributed to being a little less organized as it relates to the transmission. It was with a case where we didn't necessarily know what we didn't know. And so I'd probably spend a little bit more time on that. It went fine it was just … it was a little bit anxious for us because the light bulbs are starting to go on. It's like oh gosh or what about this or what about that, well if we got to do this then we have to do this over here and it was … it ultimately was all seamless but I wouldn't say it was stress free. I mean it was a lot of learning. Joe: There's never a transaction like this that is stress free. There's always a lot of emotion involved. And you know part of the purpose of doing recordings like this is to learn. So look we've been at this for almost 11 years as a brokerage firm and we don't have a transition checklist that should probably or could probably help ease those nerves a little bit. So it sounds like maybe what we can do as a brokerage firm is to have the seller create … and we do this but it's not very formal, a complete list, this is in the asset purchase agreement of course. But a list perhaps in Google Sheets of every item that is going to transfer and during the transition period you're going to check each box and ensure that you've got complete control of it before the asset … before the funds are released. That is the way it works folks. Rick wires funds into Escrow. Kevin transfers all of the assets over to Rick's control. And once Rick has control of all of those assets he informs Escrow … the Escrow agent and they release the funds. But we could formalize that process a little bit but it will never … I'm sorry be stress free and emotion free. That's the biggest challenge in these transactions. It's just … it's a big deal. You're making a big life changing investment, putting your hard earned money … your 401K money on the line and you want to make sure you get it right. So we we're going to make sure it's stress free but obviously, it's not always and cannot always be that way. Rick: Correct. And the other thing I would just add to that Joe is that with a [inaudible 00:33:23.6] it's unrealistic to think that you're going to fund Escrow, transition all these assets over and accounts over in 24 hours and be done. It simply takes longer than that. And part of it is out of the control of both buyer and seller. You're dealing with the different tools and resources and platforms that the company is using out there and it takes time for those folks sometimes to work through their process of transitioning that to a new owner. Joe: Yeah. And that's part of the process and that's why … regardless of the size of the deal, I want Escrow in the middle. I want that money that you've invested safely with an Escrow agent. And for your seller to know that as he transfers control over all the assets that he's money is safely … which is his future money, is safely in Escrow as well. Let's talk a little bit about if you had to do it over again what would you do different? This just business as you say was mid-sized, is it big enough to support you financially so that you can quit the corporate world and never go back and if it's not do you think maybe in hindsight you would have held off and try to buy something bigger or are you really happy with the decision and purchase that you made? Rick: Yeah. You know that's a good topic and I'll go back to some rules we operated under in the corporate finance world [inaudible 00:34:51.0] acquisitions in the corporate world. And [inaudible 00:34:54.5] said that the smaller deals take just as much time and are just as hard to work if not harder than the larger deals. And it's absolutely true. It's something I've always found to be true. And so I would say that my advice would be look do something that is going to be meaningful to you. And by meaningful I mean that the investment is meaningful, the cash flow that the business is going to generate is meaningful. Because if it's not … you know I love playing poker and sometimes you get in a poker game where the stakes are too low and it sort of distorts the game and people don't play the way that they ought to play. It's kind of a similar analogy here where putting up at risk so that it's meaningful to you. You're going to pay attention to it and as it bears fruit it's going to mean something to you because you're going to work hard on it. It's not … there's no free lunch. You're going to put blood, sweat, and tears into it. Make sure it's going to be meaningful when it comes out the other side. Joe: Yeah. Rick: So for us, the dollars that we invested out of our retirement savings were absolutely meaningful; they're significant. They're dollars that I don't want to lose. And moreover, the cash flow that this business generates is meaningful. It has the potential to equal or exceed my earnings as a corporate CFO. So yeah I … and the other thing tying back into what we were talking about earlier is what you'll find is that when you start looking at the larger businesses they generally are … they generally have a better foundation. Joe: Right. Rick: You could get into an e-commerce business on the cheap but I think the probability of getting into one that has a strong foundation like the one that we have that GunSkins has is low. It's lower I should say. You got to be a lot more careful and you are at higher risk that when you start getting into the actual processes, how the business is put together, maybe even the integrity of the seller you just … it's a little messier in my experience. Joe: Yeah for sure there's no question and that's why the multiples go up the larger the business. When you get into six, seven, really 7, 8, 900,000, a million dollars in discretionary earnings it's a larger more well established business and therefore as Rick just said it's lower risk. With lower risk, the multiple goes up. Smaller businesses lower multiple because there is more risk without question. Rick let's talk … we're running a little short on time but I want to talk about what types of things you thought you were going to be doing with GunSkins in terms of marketing channels that worked or didn't work, what surprises there were, and we got an audience of both buyers and sellers and there's people out there that are e-commerce experts that may be able to point you in the right direction in terms of getting this marketing in certain places. So let's talk about what worked and what didn't and what are you're hoping to achieve in terms of marketing channels with the business. Rick: Sure so I would say going into the acquisition and early on in the transition I was absolutely convinced that we needed to aggressively build out our dealer channel, our brick and mortar dealer channel. Not necessarily e-commerce stores but brick and mortar dealers like gun dealers, pawnshops, etcetera. There's thousands of them across the country. I thought well maybe we take a look at big retail as well, big box retail. I wasn't as convinced in that but I was convinced on the gun dealerships and that we needed to invest time in building that out. And I'll tell you … and this is again what I learned pretty quickly is that to build out a dealer network, a dealer channel through brick and mortar stores is labor intensive; labor and cost intensive in a very large way. It takes a lot of boots on the ground to go and knock on all those doors and try and sell that product. And what I learned was the cost per conversion on e-commerce is so attractive, it's so incredibly attractive compared to other sales channels. And if you can build your scale and build your brand through e-commerce the dealers will come to you at least in our case, in our business. Joe: They are finding you now. You're not going out and getting them. Rick: Absolutely. Joe: [inaudible 00:39:34.4] they're finding you. Rick: Absolutely. I mean we love our dealers but I think investing a lot of time and money in trying to grow that channel on its own is a little bit silly. And it surprised me because I didn't think that going in. Where we spent our effort is really reinforcing and building our brand, our brand awareness, and private awareness online through social media, through Google Ad Words, etcetera, through Amazon etcetera, etcetera, blog posts and the like. And what we find is people hear about us … dealers in particular and they come to us. Even some of the online distributors, very well-known online stores for guns and guns accessories have reached out to us and say hey we'd like to talk to you about distributing your product on our site. Joe: Excellent. Rick: And that's the way to build a dealership for our business. You can't go out there and put enough boots on the ground to do it otherwise. Joe: Excellent. One last question we talked about staffing very, very briefly but there were two VA's I believe or virtual assistant or remote contractors. You are here in North Carolina where I am and I believe they're both out west or were out west. Are both of the individuals that were working for Kevin still working for you? Rick: One of them is, one of them is not. The gentleman who's continuing with us we call him … but really he's a lot more that— Joe: You broke up right there. Say that one more time for me what do you call him your? Rick: Graphics genius. Joe: Your graphics genius, okay [inaudible 00:41:09.0]. Rick: It really doesn't do him justice to be honest because not only is he our graphics design guy for our patterns and so forth but he also handles a lot of the e-commerce side of things as well; our website and Shopify and Amazon etcetera. He's invaluable and he probably puts in maybe 20 hours a week something like that. Joe: Okay. Rick: So he's continuing. The other VA that Kevin had handled customer service and social media and we've picked that up on our side. My son believe it or not … my 14 year old son does a fair amount on the customer service side answering customer questions. Joe: Excellent. Rick: And this again goes back to the tools and platforms available to e-commerce businesses. We use in Zendesk on the customer service side; it's spectacular. I mean it makes it so easy and so he's enjoying doing that and making a little bit of money. Joe: That's great. I have to tell a brief story … I mean in talking to Kevin we listed this just before the holidays in 2000— was it seven … '16 right? I forgot. Just before the holidays and the customer service person was Kevin's brother who he loves dearly and here I am going man you are so overpaying a relative. It's crazy what he was paying him; I'm like you need to fire him just before the holidays. And he didn't fire him but we … because it just … it was logical and used logic and math and we made an adjustment in the profit and loss statements for really still overpaying a virtual assistant. We made the cost of the VA probably twice what it would normally cost to put that in as the cost to make the adjustment. Full disclosure put that in black and white right in the package. But he did stick with you for a while and you eventually took it in house which is great because you're saving money on the bottom line and teaching your son some business skills as well. Rick: Yeah I mean he's a great guy by the way and he was doing a great work and was very flexible with us on the transition and so … but yeah ultimately we took that over after about three months I think it was. And it takes probably 20 minutes a day something like that. Joe: Yeah I know okay so he was even more overpaid than I thought. If he's anything like Kevin he is a great guy. Kevin spoke very highly of him and I know he did a good job and the transition and training period Kevin and he worked it out and you worked it out so that he was there for you. Because the last thing you want to do is you have to jump in and take over the role of a contractor when that is not what you're intended to do. Rick: Yeah absolutely and again making sure your seller is trustworthy and is operating with high integrity. And Kevin I can't say enough about, he's an outstanding guy and he did things and handled himself in such a way he cared about the business, he cared about our success in taking on that business and that makes a big difference. He didn't have to be as cooperative as he was but that's just who he is and that makes a difference. Joe: Without a doubt, we'll try to get Kevin on the podcast as part of the Incredible Exits series. Rick: Yeah. Joe: Instead of just the Incredible Acquisitions. Well, listen, man, I'm so happy that you bought GunSkins. I'm excited for you. I'm excited maybe to have you on again as an update and talk about where you were able to take it. I mean you've had it for about a year now and we can do it again in another year. Any last thoughts, any last advice or suggestions you can give people that are considering selling their business and what they should do right, do differently than what you normally see or anybody that's buying a business any last minute thoughts for them? Rick: That's great, for sellers we've touched on it a bit through our discussion but really have yourself organized. Have your processes documented. There are great tools out there that you can use to document your processes. Also, have your financials put together. Both my wife and I are CPA's we use a partner in CapForge bookkeeping here out in Carlsbad, California. They use these Quick Books and they are e-commerce experts. I don't know how they make money with what we're paying them but that is money well spent because they— Joe: Perfect and let me just interrupt and point this set down. I'm pounding my desk people. We have two CPA's who own the business and they still hire an e-commerce bookkeeper. Please, folks please do what Rick is doing and get your books in good order. Okay, I'll stop pounding my desk. Rick: No, look I agree it's cheap and they do [inaudible 00:45:51.7] when you go to exit you're going to have all your ducks in a row and Joe's going to be very happy. He won't have to recreate the financials on the Excel spreadsheet. Joe: And you'll get more money. Rick: Yeah. Joe: You'll get more money. Good books instill confidence in buyers and confidence increases the value in the valuation and the multiple so without a doubt. Well, Rick if anybody has a great idea and wants to reach out to you how would they find you? Rick: Right through the GunSkins site, support@gunskins.com and that email is us as owners and we answer every inquiry we get. Joe: Awesome and for everybody out there that is a hunter or owns a gun of any kind please go to GunSkins.com check it out. Go to the YouTube site, you'll get to see the before and after of lots of different guns. The wraps are very, very cool; camouflage wraps, different seasons for camouflage, and even just the American flag and things of that nature if you want to spice it up a bit. Or if you're female and hunting I think there's even some wraps for females too right Rick? Rick: We're going to be launching some great ones here in the next 30 days. We're launching real tree patterns and those include … there's a tiffany blue camouflage pattern. It's popular with women as well as we have paradise pink barrage in the theme as well. But yeah there's something for everybody also visit our Facebook page. We've got over 70,000 Facebook followers and we'd love to count each one of the listeners as a follower as well. Joe: Fantastic. Rick, thanks for your time. Thanks for being a professional. I look forward to having you back on the show to talk about maybe your incredible exit someday. Rick: Absolutely. Thanks, Joe. I appreciate it. Joe: You bet. Links and Resources: Gunskins.com support@gunskins.com Gunskins Youtube Gunskin's Facebook Guidant Financial Quiet Light ROBS article CapForge Bookkeeping Quiet Light ROBS Article

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The 101 Acquisition Plan with RJ Jalichandra