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Dive into the latest episode of the Class E Podcast with Andrew Predmore, the executive director of Furman University's Shi Institute, as he shares insights into their innovative initiatives. From on-campus climate action planning to a closed-loop food system, the episode delves into sustainability challenges and solutions. Join the conversation as they discuss composting, student engagement, and outward-facing programs, including the Sustainability Leadership Initiative. Andrew sheds light on working with businesses for sustainability and fostering leadership in South Carolina. Discover how Furman is making strides in sustainability, from reducing carbon emissions to unique partnerships. Don't miss the innovative steps they're taking in waste reduction at athletic events, creating a blueprint for sustainable practices. Gain valuable perspectives on sustainability and be inspired by Furman's commitment to a greener future! Guest: Andrew Predmore, Director of the Shi Institute at Furman University Host: Mary Sturgill Producer: Isabella Martinez '24   Transcript:  Mary: Today, our guest is Andrew Predmore, who is the Executive Director of the Shi Institute for Sustainable Communities here at Furman University. Andrew, welcome to the show. Andrew: Oh, thank you. I'm excited to be here and excited to talk about innovation and entrepreneurship. Mary: Absolutely. Because you guys have some innovative programs, which we're going to talk about but you've only been here a year right?  Andrew: Not even a year. Getting close. So I started October 5th or 6th of last year so getting close to a year, yeah. Mary: How are you finding it?  Andrew: Oh, I love it. Mary: Not to put you on the spot.  Andrew: Well yeah I can't exactly answer like, oh, no good at all. But no, I truly am enjoying the position. And you know, I tell people that I really have one of the most fun jobs there is out there because we do a lot of good. And really, you know, my biggest challenge is trying to figure out what in the world to say no to because all the sustainability work that comes our way is good work. And work that's needed in the world. So lots of opportunity and lots of good things to do. Mary: So let's talk about that because you have some innovative programs that you guys are working on. Can you kind of… I don't want to say just list them all but kind of talk about them, list them and then I want to jump in…there's some that I want to dive into  Andrew: Well it would depend on how you define innovative right? But we have a lot of programming. I couldn't possibly list them all for you. Yeah, I would say like just in a broad sense, like the Shi Institute is working on and off campus on sustainability issues and we're looking to make a difference in both places. Andrew: And along the way, we engage students and faculty in that work. So you know, I'll mention just a couple of things going on on-campus and a couple of things off campus and then we can see where that takes us. But on campus our biggest push right now is climate action planning for the university. So Furman University has a carbon neutrality commitment for 2026. It's going to be really difficult to meet that commitment. And so we're really intentionally working on how we are going to pursue that commitment or we need to reset sort of when we're going to be carbon neutral and what is a pragmatic pathway to reduce carbon emissions because we're in here right now and the lights are on and we're using energy right now. And so that's, that's a real challenge for any university in any large organization. So you got to be innovative, you got to think outside the box. And we want to do it also in a way that supports the broader Greenville community. So that's a big thing that we do on campus and anything that we do on campus, we're always engaging students in that so we have a really vibrant student fellowship program. We also have a farm as you know, and that's an important thing on campus for students to get their hands dirty, and see what a closed loop food system looks like. So we'll probably get to that as an innovation but like, you know, we pick up the food waste that comes out of the back of the dining hall, we take it to a compost facility, we compost it, the compost comes back to the garden. The garden grows produce that is then sold to Bon Appetit. So we really have been working on that this summer, and over the next year to scale that up and see how much we can produce and have students learn along the way. So those are two things on campus. Mary: So quick question about that - Is the goal then to produce so much that then we can sell it to local farmers and stuff?  Andrew: No, I mean, not yet. I mean, the goal right now is to produce as much as we can that will then be served in the dining hall. So I'm gonna go to the dining hall in a few minutes when we're done with this, and you're gonna and I'm gonna see like all those heirloom tomatoes that we grow, I mean, hundreds of pounds and tomatoes this summer. We're getting close to $15,000 over the produce that's gone to Bon Appetit over the summer. So that really is healthy local food going to our students, our faculty, our staff right now, in the future, we might do CSA or do some other things where we sell that in other places, but for now, it's just going to the dining hall. Mary: What about the compost? What's the goal for that?  Andrew: The compost as you might imagine it… we've produced quite a bit of organic material, right and like so students out there and everybody listening, you know, be conscious of what you know, sometimes our stomachs are bigger than… what's the saying?  Mary: Our eyes are bigger than our stomachs. Andrew: Yeah, that's right. But then that translates into food waste. So be aware of that, but there's a lot of that and then there's a lot of leaf litter and organic material that comes on campus. So we blend that right? You have to get the carbon to nitrogen correct and compost that so we have quite a bit of it. We're going to start to sell that as a way to raise funds for the Shi Institute.  Mary: Yeah, that's kind of what I meant when I said for the farmers like local farmers, who are we selling that to? Andrew: Right now… we're not, we haven't even until now this podcast. I'm not even marketing that we're selling. And we've sold you know, several $1,000, but we're looking to scale that up because we have a lot of organic material and a lot of finished compost. The one little bottleneck we have though is filtering the compost. So we can't have plastic and forks and things that sometimes end up… so we have students out there sometimes filtering that so… Mary: I've seen some of the pictures that students have posted about people accidentally throwing away their forks and stuff in the DH.  Andrew: Yeah, the DH has a tough job right? Like anybody that's been there knows things are moving quick. And sometimes, you know, a fork or things just end up in the wrong place. But we'll solve that, we're going to filter it. Mary: So I want to turn now and talk about some of the outward facing programs.  So you have the sustainability leadership initiative.Tell us about that. Andrew: Yeah, so um, you know, think about it this way, like, like, for the world for society for South Carolina to become a more sustainable place. We've got to work for large organizations, right? And so and large organizations have to change just like Furman has to adapt…other organizations, businesses across the state need to adapt and so Furman and the Shi Institute partners with a nonprofit called sustain SC and each year we do a training that lasts five different sessions throughout the year across the state of South Carolina with around 25 business, nonprofit and public sector professionals that sign up to be in that and we're teaching them about the core aspects of sustainability. We take them out into the field and show them some of the challenges. And what we want to do is create a network of sustainability leaders across the state that are going to move us forward. So that's that program. This will be its third year. We have a really great class of people involved with that, real leaders across the state, and it's been fun putting together that program like we're taking them out to Waitis Island, which is a big conservation win. It's an under conservation easement. It's a barrier island off the coast near Myrtle Beach. So we will take them out there and show them like this is an amazing thing. This is amazing that it's protected in perpetuity, but they will also have to grapple with the fact that, like you all might have heard on the news this week that Myrtle Beach is one of the fastest growing cities in the US. Right? So there's all that urban development and around that area. And so those students that are in this program, those professionals, we're going to grapple with that like and hopefully that's going to help create better leadership and sustainability. Yeah, Mary: Yeah, because those people are the people who will then go back to their companies and it has to come from the top down, right? So that's a great way to network. I like that. That's very innovative thinking there and I like that because a lot of people in the industrial side of things don't think like that, right? Unnecessarily.  Andrew: Yeah, I mean I think that is changing. You're right and I think that the innovative thing about that is getting leaders embedded in organizations that then construct and flip systems to more sustainable ones.  Mary: Exactly. Getting them to flip the systems. That's exactly what I was talking about. You have one with manufacturers, a program with manufacturers, talk about that one  Andrew: Yeah, so this really was you know…I don't always love the word pilot but how about demonstration project? This summer where we worked with the South Carolina manufacturers extension program, and they know that there's like 7000 or so small to medium sized manufacturers across the state of South Carolina. And a lot of what they do is supply the really big manufacturing businesses in South Carolina. So think of the you know, the big name industries or companies that you all know like BMW or Michelin or Volvo or, or Milliken across the upstate, right? So they have many, many small suppliers. And then those small suppliers are under some pressure now to understand their carbon footprint. You know, because they supply these bigger businesses that have commitments to reduce their greenhouse gas emissions. So I'm like okay, knowing this I'm like, alright, there's a there's a niche here for the Shi Institute right to step in and roll our sleeves up and see if we can help some of these small to medium sized businesses understand their carbon footprint, and it helps their business because then they can say to their customer, their large customer, hey, we're working on it. It helps us because we got students who need to learn carbon accounting as a skill. So there's a really nice win-win. And so we did a couple of those this summer. They were fantastic. We work with a French company, which is located mostly in Anderson County, and they make advanced textiles. And then we work with a company that's really right down the road here called Mosaic Color and Additives. So we had two students do their greenhouse gas inventories, which is the first step like you cannot reduce your impact on climate without first understanding where your emissions come from, that are driving that impact. And so that's what the students do is, you know, we worked it was very much like a client consulting type experience for our students, which is super valuable for them. Mary: That's the Furman advantage right there. Andrew: It is. We handed the company like a report. Here are your emissions, here's where they come from. And they can start thinking about okay, what can we do to lower emissions? How can we market ourselves as a more sustainable company as a result of taking this first step? So that was a great project and we're looking forward to potentially scaling that up next summer and I think yeah.  Mary: I love the fact that you because when we think of people who need to really work on sustainability, we do think of the large companies right because they probably have the most greenhouse gas emissions, etc. But I love the reaching down to the smaller companies or supplying the bigger companies because that really, I think, will make their partnership stronger.  Andrew: It should and it should create an advantage for those first movers in a small to medium sized manufacturing...because they can say to their larger customers, hey, we're serious about it. We're taking this first step. So we, we, you know, sometimes people think sustainability, shouldn't or can't work with the business sector and I think instead we need to be innovative and think about how we can support the change that needs to happen. And so that's what we've tried to do.  Mary: Because we're part of that community. So why not? Right?  Andrew: We're wearing clothes and we consume things and so we're all a part of this economic system and, and the challenge of sustainability is how are we going to meet human needs within the boundaries of what our ecosystems can provide?  Mary: What kind of obstacles are you facing with some of these things that some of these initiatives that you're started? Andrew: My own ability to keep up with all this. Like I mentioned, sometimes there's more opportunity than then I can capitalize on it. I mean, we're also involved with some really substantial grant work, research work on climate and climate resilience in South Carolina. Luckily, I have staff they're helping with that. We're also involved with athletics and athletics at Furman and starting to think about, you know, how can we make those events… move them towards zero waste or zero landfill events and so we have to really, I don't know if you want to get into that.  Mary: I actually do.  Andrew: I have some, I think some really exciting things that we're just starting this year. So I'm not going to say we're going to finish the thing, but my biggest challenge is keeping up keeping all these things going. And luckily, I have a great group of people that I work with.  Mary: Because if you think about all of the ways from the concession stands, and even when people are tailgating and all that kind of stuff. That is a huge area that could be fixed. Right? So how are you… what kinds of things are you talking about?  Andrew: Yeah, I'm, like I said, we're gonna take incremental steps just because of our own bandwidth. But I think students, we have an eco-rep program, and those are students that work in the residence halls here at Furman to encourage sustainable behavior among their peers. They're going to help us with this athletic thing, because we need some, we need some person power behind this because there's some education but you know, you think about like, just think of yourself at a football game or a basketball game and what's served there, you know, and you start to go through sort of the inventory of what you could consume there, and then you start to understand the challenge, right? So you get a hot dog. What is the hot dog served to you in? Maybe some sort of cardboard type of thing? Well, could that become a compostable? I guess cardboard is compostable. Making sure that everything that the food is served is compostable. And then you got to figure out how to compost and collect it and you got to train people to not put what's compostable into the landfill bin. So one of the cool things we're doing and it is with that company Mosaic Color and Additives…they have a compostable fork, that they're working on and it's sourced from US materials, so it's not made in China. And we're gonna pilot using that in men's basketball games this winter, and we'll collect it and compost at Furman compost.  Mary: So that's the innovation right there. With the company.  Andrew: You know, so we'll start with basketball. Our students are also going to be doing… our Greenbelt students that live in the cabins along the lake are going to do some waste audits. So they're going to help us this year understand the waste stream that I didn't describe perfectly there for each of the athletic events. So that next year, we really understand well, like what needs to happen to move towards nothing is going to landfills, either recyclable or compostable. That'll be… that's the ultimate goal with us. So cool, really cool stuff happening there and just thankful to have athletics just super supportive and excited about it and to have Mosaic Color and Additives also, like here use our product.  Mary: Yeah, I heard their CEO talking about that fork.  Andrew: Yeah, and test it in our compost like they're very open, transparent about working together on that. And that is probably, you know, I'm not in innovation and entrepreneurship, but that's a hallmark of good thinking. Right? Mary: Right. That is innovative thinking.  Andrew: Think about systems, think about being open and transparent and creating partnerships.  Mary: Exactly.  One of the things that I find troubling is that we do have people in this country who don't believe that we need to do these things, right, that, that we don't necessarily need to be sustainable. How do you change the minds of people who aren't taking those actions that all of us can take? Or who don't have that same philosophy? Andrew: Well, I would say a couple of things to that. And you're right, you're right. That's a challenge. If you watch the Republican primary debate the other night, you saw someone say that climate change is a hoax. Well, you know, 99.99% of scientists do not agree with that. Right? It's established fact as much as science can be fact at this point that climate change is real and it's driven by humans. Okay. But to your question, which is like, how do we start to convince people? I think one thing to do is kind of what I mentioned earlier, which is…all people are embedded in an economic system that currently is not terribly sustainable, right? It's based on a take from the earth, make something wasted model, and we have to change that. That is a big systems change. So I don't think the way to do it is to place a lot of guilt on other people, because a lot of times we're embedded in a system where it can be very challenging to live sustainably. That's not to say you shouldn't do what you can do. I really think you shouldn't but don't put all the blame on individuals. Instead, you know, let's look at systems change. Let's look like I talked about let's look at training leaders to work in organizations that can flip larger systems so that it's easier for you and I to go to a football game which I think is a you know, I like sports, but I don't want to create a bunch of waste when I'm there. So create a system when I get there, so I'm not generating so much waste. Right. So there's systems work to do. The other thing I would say is, you know, you got to start talking to people about these issues in ways that matter to them. Yes, absolutely. So like, you know, we talked about climate change, you know, if you're a sports fan, I don't want to go to a football game at 12 o'clock in South Carolina, in September. And I think that is going to be a more and more difficult, unpleasant experience if you look at the climate models. So that's something that a lot of people care about. It's part of our culture in the South is to go to college football games. We need to do something. Youth sports are a big thing. Like is it safe to practice in some of the heat and humidity that we're going to encounter? So talk to people about things that matter to them as a starting point, instead of hitting them over the head with you got to change your… and guilt and all that and I think people will start to see that. So… Mary: That's audience, right? You got to know your audience, right? I tell my students that all the time. Whatever story you're telling. Start with the audience. You got to know how to tell it based on who your audience is. Right? Andrew: Yeah. I mean, I'm no communications scholar, but I've been in sustainability long enough to know that trick.  Mary: Yeah. So I was looking at some of your history Andrew and I'm going way back a little bit. In undergrad, you were a politics major.  Andrew: Yeah. Mary: Trying to pull that out of my memory correctly. How has that helped you in what you do now? I mean, obviously, your PhD and your masters and everything is on sustainability. But… Andrew: That's an interesting question that you know, I think probably some of the answer that I just gave, you know, politics is about speaking to audiences and convincing audiences so I don't know that without you asking me that question I've attributed the ability to answer that question to that experience, but maybe I think my undergrad at UVA was really more about like, critical thinking and, you know, a liberal arts education. I was a person that did not know what I wanted to do.I knew I was interested in political science and things like that, but I was also interested in the environment at that time, but I hadn't figured out environment… Sustainability wasn't really a thing. I hadn't figured out what my avenue would be there. And I think I know at Furman, we're better at that now, helping young people see the array of professions out there, but for me, it had to be like a winding path.  Mary: Yeah, I was the same way. Was there something that you came across or some event or something that kind of spurred you into saying, okay, this is the direction I want to go in, and I want to get my higher education, get my Master's in that and and go on to be where you are today?  Andrew: Oh, for sure. Yeah. I mean, it wasn't like I didn't read something, although there are certain things that I read that were impactful. I think if you haven't read Aldo Leopold, a Sand County Almanac, you should read that it's both beautiful and was really forward thinking and still applies today. But it didn't really come from reading or studying. It came from like when I was a kid growing up in Spartanburg, South Carolina. My dad would take my brother and I up into Pisgah National Forest, and we would go backpacking. He took us out west, we went out to Yosemite, we went to Yellowstone and Grand Teton. When I was 10 years old, I was backpacking in the Tetons. Mary: That's amazing. I love the Tetons.  Andrew: So you start with like that just and I found interviewing students over the years both at Indiana University where I was before and at Furman, you ask him like, where's your passion for sustainability come from? Usually there's some sort of connection with nature. And for me, that's what it was. And then ever since then, I've been trying to figure out how to make an impact. How do we create a safe space for humanity to thrive without messing up what we got.  Mary: So what has been the most rewarding thing in your career path that you've… because you were in sustainability at Indiana and now of course at Furman. Andrew: That's a good one. You know, I can talk about like, different sort of things that were accomplished either at Indiana University or even at Milliken. I was there for a year. They were one of the first 50 companies to have science based targets for reducing their greenhouse gas emissions, prove targets… and that was really cool because not to say I did that but I was a part of that. That was awesome. We did some cool things at IU around waste and recycling like that system was really not functioning well. And we set that on a path to do much, much better. And that was a big, you know, that's a big campus. So we're proud of some of those accomplishments, but I mean, it may sound a little bit cheesy but truly like when a student that worked with me like as a kind of like here we have student fellows, at IU we had sustainability interns, when they come back and I can see on LinkedIn that they're working on these things or they asked for a recommendation and I'm blown away by like, what job they're about to get. Man that's awesome. And to know I have a little bit of piece of that, particularly ones that I worked really, really closely with, that's really super rewarding. So it's a mixed bag, you know, lots of things. Mary: I totally get that because I feel that way with my students. You know when I see them succeed. So I like to kind of leave our listeners with a blueprint that they can take into their lives no matter what the conversation is about. There's always some advice or just some nuggets of information that they can use. What would you give to our listeners as something that they could take and do right now today? If they so chose to help in sustainability. Andrew: Oh, gosh, I cannot give you just one. I think we kind of covered you know it a little bit but if you're passionate about… I have students, students more at IU and increasingly I think will happen at Furman will come ask me that kind of question like What should I do? I care… what should I do? And there's all those like, personal things that you can do, right? And for college students that can be hard because you're not in control of your living space necessarily. So like you and I, we might ought to look at the energy consumption in our household and there's the inflation Reduction Act, right? So there's a lot of incentives out there for solar or battery and I'm looking at that in my house right now. So those are things but college students, you don't really have a lot of control over where you live, so do what you can. But I think the other thing is think about this as a system. If you want to make a difference, some of the things that you need to do are learn to talk to people about these issues and be willing to do it. And we talked about some tips there like approach the audience with what they might care about. But also don't be afraid to be politically engaged. Because that's probably the highest level systems change that you, that students and any of us can get involved with. So if you have a voice on this, use it.  Mary: That's a good point. I didn't even think about that. Andrew: It's not all technical stuff. It's about driving social and collective collective action. Mary: I want to circle back around to Furman again. What are we doing well, and what do we need to do better? Andrew: What are you talking… on campus or… Mary: As you know, our goal and our sustainability plan is to reduce our carbon footprint. How are we doing basically?  Andrew: Well, so you know, I mentioned one thing that we do exceptionally well, which is that closed loop circular system with food and food waste, and that's fantastic. And we'll be looking to scale out those issues. So as I've talked about compost and athletics and catering and so those are things we do well and we're going to do even better. We have nice greenhouse gas reductions relative to our 2008, 2007, 2008 baseline. Our greenhouse gas emissions have dropped like 37, 38%... Mary: Which is great.  Andrew: … which is very good. We have geothermal on different parts of campus. We have a good size solar installation across Poinsett Highway, so Furman has done a lot of things and so the facilities folks, Jeff Redderson and his team deserve a ton of credit for that.  Mary: We have five buildings that are LEED certified… Am I right in that number?  Andrew: I don't know.  Mary: Okay, well I'll look it up and if you want to know, just email me.  Andrew: Well, I know we had the first LEED building in the state of South Carolina.  Mary: Yeah, Isabella did a story on it. Yeah our podcast producer did a story on it.  Andrew: But what can we do better? Right. I talked about the climate action planning like we need to get to a point where we're looking at our greenhouse gas emissions year over year. And we're transparent about that. And we have a strategy to reduce those emissions year over year. So that's where we're headed. It's as I mentioned to you, it's it's it's challenging. We're not going to make those changes without careful planning, which has already started. So if you think about every one of or maybe not every one, but most of our buildings, this one included, has a natural gas boiler that heats the building. Well, their emissions are associated with natural gas consumption, so we need to move away from that but you can't just snap your fingers because Furman has money in that infrastructure, or that wouldn't make financial sense. So instead, you got to look at well, what's the lifecycle of the natural gas boilers at each building and which ones are coming to the end of there? And then what are we going to do then? We're going to electrify that building, the heating, and what's that going to cost? And so that's the kind of really the hard work that's ahead. And I don't know, I'm just really excited that facilities and other parts of administration are up for that work and yeah, and we're gonna, we're gonna do it. Mary: Andrew, anything else you want to tell our listeners about what the Shi Institute's doing and has in the pipeline?  Andrew: Well, I would say like this, this podcast is about innovation. And I want to thank former President David Shi who just committed a million dollar gift to us and that kind of support you know, whether it's $5, or a million dollars helps us do the things that matter most. So looking at issues around biodiversity loss and climate change and climate resilience. Instead of having to chase grants or other ways to support our work, we're able to… with that kind of support, we're able to do the things that matter most and so that would be a thing that were like, first, thank you and for other folks out there that want to support a group doing great work in the upstate in South Carolina, come talk to us. Mary: Absolutely. Andrew, thank you so much.  Andrew: Thanks, Mary.   Mary: I appreciate it.   Mary: That does it for this episode of the Class E Podcast. Remember this podcast is brought to you through a partnership between the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship, and the Communication Studies Department here at Furman University. It is produced by student producer Isabella Martinez.  But until next time, I'm your host Mary Sturgill. Dream big everybody.  

Welcome to the final episode of our comprehensive 5-part series on succeeding in tech interviews. Hosted by Andrew Oh, former TikTok Lead PM, this episode focuses on behavioral questions and leadership in product management. Gain invaluable insights to effectively showcase your inspirational leadership, innovation, and team management skills. Aspiring and current PMs alike will find this resource essential in their journey toward career success.Get the FREE Product Book and check out our curated list of Product Management resources here.

In this penultimate episode of our series on interviewing at top tech companies, join former TikTok Lead Product Manager, Andrew Oh, as he unravels the art of handling behavioral questions with finesse. Learn how to showcase your unique strengths and tackle real-world scenarios with confidence. Discover interview strategies to set yourself apart as a top 1% candidate on your path to becoming a successful product manager.Get the FREE Product Book and check out our curated list of Product Management resources here.

Tune in to the third episode of this captivating podcast series, where Andrew Oh, former TikTok Lead Product Manager, delves into the art of acing interviews at top tech companies. We'll focus on solving metric questions in the realm of product execution. Discover how to build frameworks to tackle the toughest interview challenges and go deep with follow-up inquiries. Uncover expert interview strategies that will set you apart as a top 1% candidate and increase your chances of success in each roundGet the FREE Product Book and check out our curated list of Product Management resources here.

INTRODUCTION: EPISODE #100!!! AMOR ES ARTE | ARTE ES AMORLOVE IS ART | ART IS LOVEA memoir written by Andrew Velázquez Through the lens of lotería—the Latinx game of chance, I explore my experience of being gay, young, and a creative loco in East Los Angeles. I reimagine ten lotería cards to represent the people and events that shaped my first 40 years of life. Each chapter testifies to a lotería card image such as El Diablito (Little Devil), La Rosa (Rose), and La Muerte (Death). Using these cards of destiny, I find my true self to navigate the world. My memoir defies the conventional thinking that a sensitive, lonely barrio kid, traumatized by relationship abuse and family crises, eventually falls victim to gang violence, addiction, or suicide. I bring my stories and images together to show how I overcome self-destructive behavior and how I channel my energies toward a successful career in Hollywood's beauty industry. I tell an against-the-odds life story that connects self-acceptance to art and love. Andrew is also a makeup artist:This born and bred Angeleno always knew he was meant for a career in beauty. Andrew has created signature looks for some of Hollywood's brightest stars including Lady Gaga, Michelle Williams, RuPaul, Demi Levato, Neil Patrick Harris & Carmen Electra. As a makeup artist on ”Keeping Up with the Kardashians,” Andrew regularly created the sisters red carpet ready looks and at the 2010 MTV Video Music Awards, he was the key makeup artist for Florence and the Machine, including applying avatar-like body makeup for her radiant dancers.  INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to): ·      Lots of Fan Clacking!!!·      Mí Corazón – Andrew's Makeup Line·      Amor Es Arte, Arte Es Amor – Andrew's Memoir·      Being Raised In The LatinX Community·      MADONNA·      Los Angeles Nostalgia ·      Prevalent Insecurity In the LGBTQIA+ Community ·      Coming Out·      Angels In The Psych Ward·      Andrew On American Beauty Star (Top Three)CONNECT WITH ANDREW: Website - Book - Makeup: https://AndrewVelazquez.comYouTube: https://www.YouTube.com/AndrewVelazquezInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/andrewvelazquez_Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/andrewvelazquezcom CONNECT WITH DE'VANNON: Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.comWebsite: https://www.DownUnderApparel.comTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sexdrugsandjesusYouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCMFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopixLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannonPinterest: https://www.pinterest.es/SexDrugsAndJesus/_saved/Email: DeVannon@SDJPodcast.com  DE'VANNON'S RECOMMENDATIONS:·      Survivors of Narcissistic Abuse & Codependency Support Groups (Virtual) - https://www.meetup.com/pittsburgh-narcissism-survivor-meetup-group/·      COSA – 12 Step Recovery For Victims Of Compulsive Sexual Behavior - https://cosa-recovery.org·      A Recommended Reading To Help Heal From Narcissism - https://amzn.to/41sg6FO ·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)o  https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370o  TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs ·      OverviewBible (Jeffrey Kranz)o  https://overviewbible.como  https://www.youtube.com/c/OverviewBible ·      Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed (Documentary)o  https://press.discoveryplus.com/lifestyle/discovery-announces-key-participants-featured-in-upcoming-expose-of-the-hillsong-church-controversy-hillsong-a-megachurch-exposed/ ·      Leaving Hillsong Podcast With Tanya Levino  https://leavinghillsong.podbean.com  ·      Upwork: https://www.upwork.com·      FreeUp: https://freeup.net VETERAN'S SERVICE ORGANIZATIONS ·      Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org·      American Legion: https://www.legion.org ·      What The World Needs Now (Dionne Warwick): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHAs9cdTqg INTERESTED IN PODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?: ·      PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon  TRANSCRIPT: ANDREW VELÁZQUEZ [00:00:00]You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what's really going on in your life.There is nothing off the table and we've got a lot to talk about. So let's dive right into this episode.De'Vannon: Andrew Velázquez is here with me today to mark the 100th episode of The Sex Drugs in Jesus podcast, and that is a huge accomplishment. Y'all and I could not be more grateful. Thank you, God. Thank you everyone who listens to and supports this show now, Andrew has written the book, it's called.Love is art. Art is love or amor, esp.He also had the makeup line called me[00:01:00]and do the celebrity makeup artist and alsoan educator.Now in his memoir, Andrew defies the conventional thinking that a sensitive, lonely barrio kid who's been traumatized by relationship abuse and family crises must eventually fall victim of gang violence, addiction, or suicide. In his book, Andrew brings stories and images together to show how he was able to overcome self-destructive behavior.Establish a successful career and bring art and love together in a way that's never been done before.Now Andrew has created signature looks for some of Hollywood's brightest stars all including Lady Gaga, RuPaul Dimmi, Lovato, Neil, Patrick Harris, you name it. He's done. Please listen in as Andrew and I get real and vulnerable with you that are to help someone lonely, isolated, and hurting out there. We love you.Hello all of you beautiful people out there and welcome back to the Sex Drugs in Jesus podcast. I'm your host Devon, and I have with me [00:02:00] today for our 100th episodes, a beautiful, talented, incredible, lovely. Queer creative with a beautiful wavy hair that you see right there. Andrew Velazquez. Darling, how are you?Hello. Andrew: Good. How are you coming? So I had that, and if you need that sound audio again, that, De'Vannon: God, Andrew: that thing is huge. Thank you so much for having me. Yes. I'm gotta, I gotta get you one. I'm gonna send you one. De'Vannon: Gosh, that thing is to be beautiful. So y'all, so before I get into Andrew here, the 100th episode is a really big fucking deal.And why it is is because most podcasts is, I understand they don't make it to this point. People get into just about anything in this world for all kinds of reasons. And podcasting is one of those things that looks glitzy. It looks glamorous. So everybody wants to go run off and start a podcast. And [00:03:00]then you see most of them, I got like 10 episodes, 15 episodes, you know, or they might do like, you know, maybe like 10 episodes a year.You know, I hit the ground running a year before last, and I didn't stop. I released a show every week, nonstop, every Thursday, you know, you know, unless some shit done went down. But generally speaking, it's every Thursday. And so it's a really big fucking deal to make it to episode 100. This means I'm serious, that I'm committed.This is meant to be and it is gonna be here to stay. Andrew: Oh, happy for you. Congratulations, congrat. Congratulations. So happy for you. It is definitely a milestone. Yeah. Well earned, well deserved all De'Vannon: that. Thank you. And so, when I was toiling over who the hell I could get to, to share this moment with me Andrew's, Andrew's people reached out to me, and his story is so enigmatic, it's so cataclysmic, it's so polarizing, and I felt like I had so much in common with him.He's from Los Angeles. Everybody who [00:04:00] knows me knows the City of Angels is all I talk about. I love la I was out there in the military and everything. I'm obsessed with that city. And when I'm rich enough, I will go back and you know, I'm queer and I love me some Latin men, that's all the dick I used to get when I was out there.I, I've sat on plenty of Latin dick Andrew: and that's right. We're dangerous too though. We're spicy and dangerous. De'Vannon: So am I. So we always, along y'all, he's an author. He has his own memoir out. He and our both 40 years old, he's a celebrity makeup artist. He's worked with Lady Gaga, Demi Vato fucking like everybody.He's an educator. He's a spirit light worker. He is a healer. Y'all. He's, he, he's like me. You know, like, you don't have to worry about what you're gonna talk to with somebody like this cause he is done so much, you know, it's just how we're gonna get through this hour and give you credit. So he is literally [00:05:00] the definition of everything, and that is why he is here today for episode one.Double O tell us about yourself, Andrew: baby. Wow. I mean, that just, I, I have chills. Your listeners can't see this, but yeah. I am so honored to be here for your hundred episode. Congratulations on all of your successes and what you're doing. The service you provide, the light, I feel it, the energy that you're exuding, it's beautiful.And I know that your followers and your audience appreciate that too, because you're healing. That's why good things are coming to you. I'm gonna call you divine cuz I see only a divine human being in front of me and that's exactly what you are getting the divinity of, of life. And yeah, that's, that's my philosophy too is, you know, I first generation Mexican-American parents are immigrants from Mexico.They met in their teens and I was their first born in East La Boyle [00:06:00] Heights. And yeah, being raised in such like a macho area was a little difficult for me for being just a such creative, feminine, flamboyant kid. And everything that I was trying to be a kept being told that it was wrong.Cause you know, where my parents got married, it was like the church. I was raised Catholic, so I got baptized there. I did my first communion, I did catechism. All, you know, knowing that I'm sinning and because I like boys and trying to hide, that was just, It was heavy. It was really heavy. And my mom just was the first to be like my mentor, my icon.She introduced me to Madonna in the eighties, who I'm obsessed with. I am the proud owner of four Madonna tattoos. She's right here. There's, there's other ones. Yeah, this is from erotica. And she just celebrated her 30th year anniversary for the sex book, which was released here in Miami. [00:07:00]And so she was really like my first, I don't know, my first like muse, you know, watching my mom do her hair and makeup in the eighties and just taking me to cosmetology school while she was going.She just was fierce. Just drag hair, makeup, done, jewelry, accessories, and she was my queen. So for her to support my my arts and my interests in wanting to like be creative meant a lot for me. But, You know, helping raise my brothers. Cause I, I have three younger brothers and my dad worked as a mechanic during the day.A tow truck driver at night was a lot of responsibility for the oldest sibling to, you know, be a provider also and be their mentor. So I just remember like, I don't know, watching 9 0 2 oh saved by the bell and seeing the drama there. And I'm like, why don't I have that drama in my life? Why do these teenagers have all these dramas and I'm this perfect cookie cutter kid helping raise my brothers Like, this is not.[00:08:00] Hmm. So I made the drama and that's chapter three in my book called elto, which means little devil, I call it My bad. And that's really where I started to rebel. And, you know, we all go through like self-discovery and just that cross of like youth child into adolescence. You're not an adult. Yeah, it was just like an awakening moment.I went 180, I just flipped. Went from this perfect kid to just rebel partying with drag queens. Met my first club kids, went to the Rays and the nineties in LA was just all rage. It was so fun. They used to call me Space Boy and I would you know, dress in all these crazy like avan garde colorful outfits.And I finally felt like free and liberated with other creative people and, and queer people. Finally, like my first drag queens, you know talking [00:09:00] like Stacy Hollywood, DJ Irene, like these are the people that I used to party with like in the early nineties. Like it was the hard house. That was just the rage, right?Yeah. So Arena Circus the Alexandria Hotel, like, oh, I remember going to a rave at Knottsberry Farm. The K Rave. Yeah. And it was just so lit that these kids were jumping. Because NASP Prairie Farm had never done that. So they were literally jumping the gates trying to get into, into the rave and just like party out all night.But they canceled it right away and they shut it down. So they never had a rave at ATSP Farm again. But yeah, it was, that was, that was very liberating and finally feeling like I was part of this community. But with, with that nightlife there, there's also a dark side, right? There's also like alcohol, drugs and all of that.And finally, like, experimenting with boys and having my first experiences and [00:10:00] just being exposed to addict addiction and then realizing, oh, my mother, my mother's also an alcoholic and has been suffering from chronic depression. And I was basically her like right hand man. So that was the hardest part to, for her to she kind of like rejected me when I finally came out and.I just went through like, like a huge depression cuz here was this like queen that I used to look up to and then she said, no, this is the route you're going. Like, I don't want anything to do with it. And I ran away and left. But, you know, I remember I'm gonna be extremely vulnerable because that's like, what's, that's what's I think the most important thing to be authentic and, and expose like the truth to, to grow and learn from.But yeah, after a couple suicide attempts that were failed, I was [00:11:00] taken to hospital at psych Ward 51 50 where I discovered therapy. And I just remember having this epiphany and this like my aha moment, right? My my reality check where this young Latino man that was in that only spoke Spanish, looked at me and was like, Andrew, you don't belong here.Like you have a light. What? And, and this was, he was only telling me this in Spanish, and he would write me poetry. And I finally felt like, heard, seen and like I existed in that matter. So I remembered that very distinct moment saying, I don't wanna live this life. Like, I don't wanna go down this dark path.I realized the addiction can, can be real. And it's in my, it's genetically in our family. So I chose to follow my passion and my craft and my career. And at the age of 16, I graduated and took my GD and I just started my [00:12:00] my journey in, in the arts and the fashion industry. So fashion school, cosmetology school, and then working in retail, corporate cosmetics truly saved my life and.Here I am now been in the industry for 22 years, gonna be 23 next month. I've been independent freelance artist for eight years now. I'm a memoir, author of owner of a cosmetic company also. And it's all based around the same thing, like my culture, my passion, my craft. It's called Love is art.Art is love because for me, the other one cannot exist with the other. And in Spanish it's called. So that's the story. It's, it's a lot. I mean, to get the detail, you gotta read the book. I can't give too much away, but that's like the synopsis, De'Vannon: right? And so, yo the book covers beautiful, like he said, like the different cards and everything are on the front.[00:13:00]You know, in Spanish they call it Yeah. Good job. Good job. Yes. I was down till, like, a couple of weeks ago and they were complimenting on my Spanish, and now that I'm back here, it's like I can't fucking put three goddamn syllables. When Andrew: when you're in it. Yeah, when you're in it, it just, it just kind of rolls out. You gotta be in, in the community and then, or vela, that's when it really comes out.Exactly. Would all that, yes. De'Vannon: So I wanna go back and touch on a few things that you said. It, it registered me Absolutely heard you said that, you know, you were raised in that macho community and, you know, the, the Latino community can be very machismo, very toxic, toxically, masculine. Mm-hmm. And, you know, and so, mm-hmm.I remember when I was a kid, I was like super femme and everything like that. And I wanted to play with Ken and Barbie dolls and twirl [00:14:00] around and I'd wear my, me too, right? I'd wear my mother's heels and take a belt and make a dress out of an oversized shirt. And and my dad would take me out into the yard and, you know, insult me and berate me for being feminine and try to make me learn how to box and stuff like that.And I'm all like if I, Andrew: yeah, you're, you were in the De'Vannon: military. I went in the military when I was 17, but this is when I was like, in elementary school. He was out there trying to make me a man, whatever the fuck that's supposed to be, you know? I'm like, no, I wanna see what's under Ken's pants. Damn it.I know you're, Andrew: you're. Surprise though. It was just like flat or a little De'Vannon: bulge. Yes, I am a, I was a baby, right, Lester, when I was in the third grade deal with it. Judge me if you wanna. Andrew: And so we all had that. We all had that. De'Vannon: So I wanna know you mentioned you went from being [00:15:00] good to bad because everything was so good.You, you were trying to find the complications. I felt this way too. When I was in the church. I felt like I was a little bit too good when I get kicked out of the church. Then that's when I got caught up with the drag queens and the alcohol and the drugs. I became a drug dealer. Like you had felt, I felt liberated.I felt like I was being myself. I don't know if I was numbing some of that pain from being kicked out of church. I think I was with the drugs and alcohol. Tell me, did you ever get bad into alcohol or drugs or anything like that? Or, Andrew: or were you able to Oh yeah, absolutely. Yes, for sure. I definitely had some partners that, and some boyfriends that I probably were not the best choices.And in my book, this is chapter five , which is the spider. Just to give you a quick history on it, is Mexican bingo game of chance. And I was [00:16:00] mesmerized by all the artwork cause they resembled tarot, which I didn't even know at the time what tarot was as a child. Cause my mom introduced me to this game and my brothers.But later I realizing that with tarot and with Loya, each card has a symbol. So the reason I chose these tens specific cards is because they resonated with the timeline of my life. And so laa for me is the triggers and traumas of all the bad relationships. I'm not even gonna call 'em bad relationships.I'm gonna call them challenging relationships that have taught me because now I'm I'm at the point where I've done a lot of like self work and I mean, I'm still, I'm, I call myself. A student of University of Mother Nature and I'm always gonna be learning. And so all those moments have helped me realize, you know, that we're all just kind of like these lost little souls, like these lost little angels that are trying to like, figure out and navigate where the right path is.So these partners that I had that did have addiction problems [00:17:00] you know, at the time it was fun because like, yes, everyone's partying and you're just like, you wanting your wasted the quickest thing. I remember just waiting in line at Arena with like Mad Dog 2020 boondog, like the grossest stuff, but we would drink the fastest, cheapest shit to just like get the most shit wasted before we entered the club.Cause it was just like, we gotta get wasted before we get inside the club. Cuz we didn't, we were young, it was ages club, but we were not even old enough to drink and we were just, you know, getting wasted to. Loosen up dance and just like party all night. But through that, like fast forward into like my twenties, you know another Latino individual, this is a, I'm Mexican, so this is a different type of Latino.This, he was Columbian, Ecuadorian, and I just was a different world that I had an experience with, like the salsa me mbia, and then just [00:18:00] the, the lifestyle and the party of that culture. It just kinda like infatuated with me. But as as like fast and heavy and dangerous as it was, is as quick as I realized, like, whoa, this is, like, this can go dark.And he would drink all the time, you know, he would do drugs. He started going to like sex clubs and. I don't know what, where I was mentality wise. Like my self-esteem was just shot and I felt like this is the best that I can do, so I'm just gonna settle with it. I don't know, I really dunno where that came from.But I did, I got a D U I because this one time we partied and he wanted to continue to party and was threatening me if I didn't take him to get more liquor, that he was just gonna go to sex club and do like his own thing. So I felt like obligated [00:19:00] to, all right, I'm gonna take you. And he was driving and it was swerving and then I was like, no, let me take over.So a, after getting that D U I, I just, it was like my rock bottom. It was like my lowest of low because of the partner that I had chose the time. And I'm realizing later in reflection, like. I chose these partners for a reason. And I think I was trying to fix them. I think I was trying to groom them up cause I was introducing them to fashion and art and all that as well.And then all of a sudden they would change. And later I'm realizing like you were trying to fix yourself. Like you were actually, you are projecting what your insecurities were onto this individual and it just counteracted and affected you where you took the dark that was being, and, and you know, dark attracts each other, right?Like light attracts light. And so yeah, [00:20:00] I mean I, I obviously I'm not with that person anymore. Very happily married. We're 13 years together now and gonna be nine years married this May. And that's a lot for a gay man. And, you know, our, because it's, it's, but it's like I realized like I had to go through all those.Relationships and those triggers and traumas to, to like really fix me and love me for all of me. And that's when I, I was able to attract and the person that I kind of deserved and earned and, and actually saw me for me and didn't make me feel judged and didn't make, forced me to be something that I wasn't meant to be.You know? So I honestly, I'm even grateful for all those, those challenging moments for sure. De'Vannon: Right. And so I hear maturity, you know, in your words there because you understand how much good things come from the fire, from heat and intensity. You know, you've really [00:21:00]grown in life when you can grasp that and you don't look at problems and things that make you uncomfortable and things that hurt you as necessarily inherently negative, you know, cuz so much So when I, when I hear you talk about like the alcohol and the drugs and the sex, you know, vice.You know, it's one of the things that really take any anybody down in life. They are a gargantuan problem in the lgbtqia a plus community. Y'all, our people can't get picture is, can't get enough. Crystal meth, can't get enough, all that. Can't get enough Dick, can't get enough calm, can't get, can't get enough blow jobs, can't have enough origin for me.Andrew: For me it's work now though. But yes, there's always something De'Vannon: because you've grown to that point and you know, but before you had to go through being abused by all of these vices. And look, I'm not saying that there's nothing, anything inherently wrong with crystal meth and crack and cocaine and orgies and sex clubs.[00:22:00] But you know, bitch, when you at the sex club every night when you, and you leaving your boyfriend at home and not telling him you're going and when, or if you just at sex club every night, you single or you are high, Andrew: like it's gonna take a toll De'Vannon: eventually. It's gonna take a toll. But my point is, I need people, bitch, I need you to ask yourself what you really doing it for.Because after a point is not for the entertainment lonely or are you insecure? Are you seeking validation in these, right. Keep going back. So our community is hella insecure, no matter how pretty, we are always at the damn gym. Six packs, bubble butts everywhere. And don't nobody like the damn self. I don't see what the fucking point is.Andrew: What's the why? What is that all about? Like what? I'm still trying to figure that out. You know? What does RuPaul call it? Inner saboteur. Some people call it little bitch voice. Like, I think it's just learning how to navigate with that. Like it's [00:23:00] never gonna go away. It's always there. However you can. I, I think through writing this book and through the, the experience that I've, experiences that I have gone through have taught me that through trauma you can transform and triumph into power.You just have to believe it. You just have to know it. And, and really at the end of the day, it's being of service to others like, like you're doing with, with your audience and sh and, and sharing the knowledge and the, the growth. And that's, I think that's like the legacy we all need to leave behind as humans is through our, you know, journeys and our experiences that we can share that and, and share the growth and the tools that have helped shape us to where we are in a stable place, that, that truly brings happiness.Then that can also be infectious, just. And addicting as like alcohol and drugs and sex, you know what I mean? Like the positivity can also be just as addicting. And I [00:24:00] know that we share mutual podcast friends with a survivor to thrive and give 'em a little shout out. And they're on that same mission, you know what I mean?And I feel like it's not a coincidence that we've all been introduced to each other for, you know what I mean? During this time when it is the considered the, the most depressing time of the year, which is also my, happens to be my birthday December 27th. And now we're in January, which is melancholy and can be hard for our community or anybody going through mental health issues.So why not lift each other up and why not celebrate your struggles and, and transform them into something good, you know? Mm-hmm. Whatever that means for you. De'Vannon: The, yeah. Yeah. And I am gonna dig deeper into the mental health aspects of your book in just a moment. And y'all, like he said, you know, he's written his book to help the people's transparency that y'all heard me say a thousand times, [00:25:00] you know, is the greatest form of help because we learn and grow by listening to what other people have gone through.It is a trap when we think we're isolated and alone, when really the person sitting right next to us is either going through the same thing or has gone through the same thing. When I got H I v I thought I was the only one. I thought I was gonna die. I didn't know half the damn queens in Houston at the shit too.No one talked about that. We were too busy doing all the cocaine. Exactly. Doing all the cocaine at F Barn at South Beach, you know, and everywhere else. And at Jrs to do rather than to actually have real conversation. And so he, right, Andrea's wrote, written his book in order to help help some of you save your lives, to prevent you from committing suicide, to stop you from hurting other people, to stop you from hurting yourself.Cuz when you read that book, you're gonna know. Okay, this fucker went through the same shit. Maybe it's not just me. It is incredibly empowering to know that it's not just you or as they say over on Survivor, the thriver know that you are not alone. Andrew: [00:26:00] Absolutely. You said that beautifully. So I wanna know, and that, that's really No, go ahead.Sorry. De'Vannon: Yeah. I wanna know, you mentioned Catholicism from in the past. Mm-hmm. Where are you at in terms of spirituality today? Andrew: Like I said, yeah, I mean, I was born into that. It was it was all I knew, like it was, we lived on that block, you know, where my parents got married, where I was baptized, where I did my first commune and confirmation where I became a godfather.It was it was just when you're, when you're Mexican in east LA that's just what it is. Like, it just gets part, it's like peanut butter jelly comes with the territory. But And I I De'Vannon: about today specifically because people are born mm-hmm. Into all kinds of religions. I was born Pentecostal, you know, that's what you're okay for.Your family gives you, I don't feel like, like the learn behavior. Right. I feel like it's more valid once you become an [00:27:00] adult and you consider all the options. Mm-hmm. If you still wanna stay with that, then I think it becomes authentic. But until then you Yeah. What people told you to do. So what, what spiritually have you discovered for yourself?Andrew: I mean, obviously at that point, I, I, as a kid, I didn't agree with marriage only being between a man and a woman. And then, you know, just the, the history of the priests and the abuse and the, all that. I, I didn't agree with any of that. But even, even, even even Madonna too with Journey and her being Catholic and like a prayer and being the first advocate for l g BT Q, putting in her cd in her tape a condom and to protect se use protection for sex and literature on aids.Like, she was the first one to kind of give me a voice. And I, I felt seen, like [00:28:00] just the fact that I knew that I was gay. I felt like I was gonna get AIDS just because of that simple reason in the eighties and the nineties. But I mean, even that's kind of like part of my spirituality. So for me my husband and I go to non-denominational church.We are part of Unitarian. It's more of a communal thing. And it's more of just because they're accepting of everything. And the, the philosophy is to celebrate love, life human experiences. And it's, it's really lovely. I mean, it's. I ki I, I liked it because it brought me a little ba back to the nostalgia of the good things of going to church when I was Catholic.But I'm, I'm a spiritual person by Mother Nature and the universe. I believe in the law of attraction. I meditate every day. I practice gratitude. I journal, I visualize I consider my dogs my spirituality as well. I have dog, I have three dogs, you know, I have dog therapy [00:29:00] with them daily. I practice kind acts with others.I I'm an earth sign, so I love anything that has to do with the outdoors and just going on hikes and doing yoga. We're gonna do yoga tonight. You know, it's being healthy. We're both vegan, we're both animal lovers. My, my cosmetics is vegan and animal cru tea free as well. So I'm just, I'm a spiritual person as far as just energy, you know what I mean?Like this's just. What I love about being a human being is that I'm so connected with Mother Nature and we're all the same at the end of the day. Like there, it has nothing to do about your color of skin, your orientation, your gender, hus in your bedroom, what you eat, nothing like, we're all literally the same breathing things, elements, you know what I mean?It's looking at like, my veins is just like looking at the roots at a on a tree. [00:30:00] When you're like in a plane and you're looking down as the earth shrinks and you see all the little cracks in the rivers of, of earth, those are the veins of earth. It's all the same thing, you know? And so whatever spirituality is for the individual, if it makes them feel special and, and seen and that's, that's all that matters, whatever gives them that like happiness, that joy, that light.And for me it's, its mother nature. So that's my form of spirituality. De'Vannon: Okay. Look, I love to keep me a good garden in the back. I love eating off the, I love riding horses. You know, when I'm not riding Dick, you know, and everything like that. Exactly. Appreciate I can appreciate the fuck out of that. So, I wanna go back to this rejection of your mother because you know, she's a, you know, she sounds like the embodiment of a drag queen's in a straight woman's body.She supported you until you made it official. There's no goddamn way. She couldn't have already [00:31:00] known mothers. No, the bitch wasn't blind. I mean, I don't mean that insultingly. I mean that You're Andrew: good. You're good. De'Vannon: You know, I'm like, girl, you could see, you could read the tea. Andrew: I mean, I was going to the makeup.Yeah. So I was going through all De'Vannon: that. So, So you felt accepted and she already knew what it was. So it almost like for her, it might have been better if you never would've made it a official by saying the words. Hmm. So for those, for people out there, for queer people, especially Latinx people who have been rejected and there is a lot of rejection of L G B LGBTQ people because of how the Catholic church is, your culture is hella Catholic, you know?Mm-hmm. And so take me, take me back to when that rejection first happened and really give me some words to those feelings. Cause I want you to embody what somebody else is going through right there. I want you to vocalize that. Andrew: Yeah. [00:32:00] And 10th grade, and I, I think I had ditched school that day. I lived in a studio that was on the same property.My parents a lot of Mexicans do this where they build homes inside their homes and other. And it's just like a lot of houses. And so I, I, I was grateful for that cause I had a little bit of privacy, but my mom always had a key of course. And so I remember having my friends over the night before and we're listening to like Morris depe.And it was just kind like that vibe wearing all black, my doc Martins, you know, my black bomber jacket and drinking red wine and thinking we're cool and smoking marble red cigarettes. We were disgusting and clothes, but it was just, that was the thing that we did. And I just remember like waking up like hungover and it was time for school and I'm like, ah, I'm [00:33:00] not feeling it.I'm not gonna go. So I stayed home painted my fingernails and was just kind of like being lazy and just bumming around the house. And then my mom came in and like, just like, and Mexican moms. Can rage and just open the door and slammed and was like yelling, what are you doing in Spanish? Of course,you know, like all that kind of stuff. It was very . And and then she was like, picking up my jacket, picking up the bottles. She's like, what is this stuff? Why are your nails painted? Why are you dressing like this? What are you doing? Like, what are you gay? And that was the first time she had ever ever asked me that.And I finally like, I was so tired of yelling back and forth to like, I remember we were both yelling so much that we had to take a break to just take a, a breather. And then I finally yelled back and I said, yes, I'm [00:34:00] yay. You know, and a part of it felt good to just finally say it and vocalize it and to put it out into the universe, but also like seeing the sadness in her eyes did not feel good.And I just, I saw her like just kind of shrink and just, that made me shrink too. And then she just said, well, I don't support that. You're gonna have to leave you. If you're not gonna go to school, then you need to get outta here. And she left. And so I just remember feeling rejection alone, abandoned. Why am I here causing so much stress to all these people around me?And, you know, the per, the one person that I, that I thought was always gonna be my hero, that I, that supported me is now like, just telling me to get out and that I'm done with you. You're not good enough. Like when she said, De'Vannon: does she mean you no longer can [00:35:00] live here? Or when she's saying, I can't see your face today, what did she mean as a.Andrew: A teenager, I thought I took it as like, you, you don't, you're not gonna live here anymore. Like, if you're gonna live like that, you're not gonna live here. Like, those are the words that I heard. Yeah. That's how it sounds to me. So I, so I said, okay, and I, I did run away. Obviously I had to come back to get my stuff.And again, just going through the lows of the lows, seeing the alcohol, drinking that some more, discovering Tylenol pm, taking some of those. And the combination of it, I was just like, I was just, I was so sad. I was so alone that I didn't think I was able to get over this, like, low. So I just, I decided I wanted to take my own life.You know, I was gonna try and it [00:36:00] didn't work, you know, it didn't work. I woke up the next day. With my wrists, still bloody, but kind of like crusting and trying to heal just disorientated and dizzy from all the wine and the, the pills. And I'm like, all right, well, I guess I'm gonna go to work.I'm sorry to school. I didn't, it didn't work, you know, just put on my bomber jacket, go to school. I'm like, second period, get a call from the school counselor and says, you need to report to your school counselor's office. Get to the office. And they're like, your mom just called and apparently she went into your room and saw all this stuff and is really concerned about you.We need to see your wrist. And so I was hesitant, but obviously ended up showing, and they were like, all right, well you're a minor at this age in Roseville High School, we're not allowed to let you out of our site. We need to report to the center quad area, and we're gonna let you know what [00:37:00] is gonna happen to you then.So I get escorted with the security to the center of quad area. The bell rings and as the bell rings, the gates open up and an ambulance drives in as the ambulance is driving in the doors open and the security is escorting me into the ambulance. All the schoolmates come out running and seeing me getting into this ambulance and girl, I was mortified.I was, I was the most embarrassing moment and just kind of like, that's it. I'm over. I can never get back from this. There's no, there's not gonna be a way to fix this. You know what I mean? It was, it was very heavy, it was very embarrassing and exposing and was rushed off to White Memorial Hospital in Royal Heights, and they pumped my stomach and they stitched up my wrist and.[00:38:00]And yeah, I was admitted to a psych ward as a one 50 minor. It was who continued? Are you okay? Say what? I mean, it was, honestly, it hon, at that point I just surrendered. I, and I just kind of, I gave it to God at that point, you know, and was like, I'm just gonna be reborn. I'm gonna be a child. I'm gonna be infant.I'm gonna just let you guide me. This is where I'm supposed to be now to, to learn and to grow. I, I guess I'm gonna listen to these therapists. So I discovered therapy, which I fell in love with immediately cuz I'm finally being heard. I'm finally having tools and resources to, to help navigate my emotions, my feelings.And then I met that angel That young man that wrote me poems and [00:39:00] talked to me and said, you don't belong here. And told me I was special. And, and I finally like, believed it, you know? And that's, that's when I told you earlier that I made that conscious decision to not go down that route anymore.And I'm, I'm still in therapy to this day. I mean, it's not every week I mean like it used to be, but it definitely saved my life. And I feel that person was an angel. Cause fast forward to later, as I'm going through self-discovery and I'm writing my book and I'm journaling, I'm like, what happened to him?So I tried to research, but obviously through the privacy of hospitals, like they're not allowed to expose any information. But they were like, yeah, you were the only, they said you were the only one there in your room. So what the heck does that mean? You know, like they're saying that I was the only one in my room, but I distinctly remember this.Young man named Miguel telling me, you're, you're, you know, [00:40:00] you don't belong here. You, you need to follow the light. How long was Miguel? De'Vannon: That's crazy. How long was Miguel Andrew: in there with you? I mean, I, I was only in there for two weeks. He had already been there for a month. Mm-hmm. But yeah, I don't remember.We never exchanged numbers. Like So you think, I mean, we had pagers I think at the point, De'Vannon: right? So you think maybe it was, I remember the pager days. Beep, beep, beep, beep. Do you remember Uhhuh, I'm sorry you went through all of this and mental health is a big fucking deal in the queer community because a lot of our issues come from our parents because our parents have their own unresolved issues.The church has told them what to think about their own children. Not, not all mothers and parents are able. Be like, this is my child. I don't even a damn what the church has to say because, you know, our parents have their own issues. And so this is a huge reason why there's a lot of insecurity in our community.It comes from our own households. Now do you think this was son [00:41:00] who was in there with you, perhaps And y'all son, Miguel is just like son, son, Miguel, St. Michael, the Arche angel. Andrew: Yes, yes, yes. I don't know. I mean, I don't know. I, it was definitely an angel and I, when my mom I, I was born two days after Christmas.I was supposed to be born like on Christmas, but it happened to be two days after. And she said cuz she was really into Like astrology. And she used to watch Walter Melo, I dunno if you know Walter Melo, who it was like the famous like tarot card reader in in the Latino community. It was like the thing that we watch religiously every Sunday, like after the, the, no, it was Walter.And he would tell you like, capric, Corno, tourist, blah, blah, blah. So she, cause of him, she used to tell me, you, when you were born, the sun, the Earth and the Moon and Mercury were line and you were born at 6:05 AM I, they gave [00:42:00] me you, you, they gave you, oh, sorry, let me rephrase this. They gave me you in a red stalking and as you're going in my arms, I just saw a big star on your head and a light on your right side.And I'm just staring at this little gift in this red, like stalking this and I'm holding it. And so she kept telling me that as I was. Growing up, like you have a star, you have a light on your, so I don't know, I, I can't help but go back to that, you know what I mean? Like go back to these little angels, these little whether it's whoever, you know, maybe it's, maybe it's a drag queen that past life, but she's saving me.That's what I like to I feel like we all have some kind of angel to protect, you know, some kind of either light energy, whatever you want to call it, you know, it could be our [00:43:00] past ancestors or ancestors. It could be maybe your past self and your reincarnate. I don't know. But something was there.It was very prevalent. It was, and it was the moment that I changed my mind. Otherwise, I could have gone down that addiction route. I could have gone down, you know, The gang route and like been in the closet and continued to live this straight life because of course I acted like I was straight forever.Because that's what you do when you're in that kinda environment. Otherwise you're gonna get clocked, you know, and jumped and bullied and I was all those things. But yeah, I, I can only say like now being with my husband, his name is Johnny Debut for 13 years. Accepting me for all of me. My femininity, my masculine side.He, yeah, he's just, he's my homie for life and he's the one that's just [00:44:00] I don't know my mean, like reminded me to love myself too. And I'm just very grateful for that. Cause it's been, we've had a journey on our, on our own as well and the good and the bad and but yeah, we're best friends. He is, he is just been The rock for, for everything.And I'm gonna be that right back to him too. For sure. Hey, hey Johnny, De'Vannon: Daniel, whatever you ask me, introduce Savannah and I'm saying Andrew: hello, hello, hello, hello, hello. De'Vannon: Hey Johnny, how will I get to have cocktails with you one day? Yes. So let's lighten this up as we get, we're down like our last couple of minutes here.So we've talked about some darkness, bring some light, and so yeah, we, we get light through darkness and angels are real. You know, I've spoken about how they've appeared to me before, all kinds of places on the side of the street and restaurants, you know, and there's [00:45:00] been times where it's like nobody else even sees this person in here.And I'm not the only one talking to them and everything like that. I turn around sometimes my husband sees them. Now look, y'all, they don't, I've never had them, except for in dreams appear to me in any sort of glorious way. When they appear to me on the street, they're just plain clothes people. And then we talk mm-hmm.Stuff like that. And I turn around and then they're gone. One of my favorite appearances is one time I was out in my yard, this is the last time I ever touched a rake in my life when I was in high school, raking these leaves. I hate yard work. I'm like, can we get a fucking, can we get a fucking maid? Do you see my nails?I'm queer. I shouldn't be doing this. Ugh. So, so I'm raking this fucking leaves and I hate wet ground and, ugh. This, this, this black guy walks down the street and he's just like, Hey, be careful for those poisonous snakes. Now we are in the hood, you know, just in the middle of the city. Oh, we're not out in the country.Why the fuck would there be a snake? He's like, were you careful of those snakes? The next [00:46:00] pool, there was a goddamn damn poisoned snake flopping all around in. They're trying, oh, hell no. I threw that right down. I'm like, I don't, not a snake. I don't give a damn with my dad. I want me to do, ain't no more chores being done in this yard.I looked up that that guy had told me this, like not a split second, and I looked up and he was gone. And I had something like that happen when I was a kid. You know, they'll show up, say whatever. I looked down and I'm like, he, they can't take nobody. Run that damn fast. You know? Or as or as the Hebrew scripture tells us, you know, we've entertained angels at unawares and be careful how you treat strangers.Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm. Absolutely talk about makeup. So y'all, like he said, he has own makeup line. Oh,Andrew: it was a good segue. It was a good segue. Had to do it right. And De'Vannon: every time he cls that fan has a title of his book, AOR Art Arta Moore. Or love is art. Art is Love. Yes. So [00:47:00] his first color palette is, is called Me Corone, which stands for my heart, you know, in Spanish. Mm-hmm. Go ahead and hold it up. So, Ooh yes.It ain't no bunny ram harm in making that. That's what I'm here for. That shit is vibrant. Thank you. You know, every now and then, you know I might beat this face up. You know, I'm gonna have to get your shit. Oh, I would love Andrew: to do your makeup. Yes. Let's make that happen. Oh, don't. I'm gonna De'Vannon: be in LA soon. God.I pray to God the next time I go to Los Angeles, cuz I'm in Louisiana where I live now. I pray to God the next time I go to Los Angeles it's, I'm there to stay. God. Need to go Andrew: home. Wait, I'm actually gonna, I'm actually wait, I, I'm going to Nashville in February. De'Vannon: That's a bit away from Louisiana still. I mean it might be kinda like Yeah, you're right down here by New Orleans and stuff.So whenever you come to Mar are you ready to do you a Mardi Gras carnival? Andrew: We do [00:48:00] love New Orleans. Yes, I do. I got De'Vannon: you hooked up bruh. So, okay y'all, so he bought this show called American Beauty Star and that, that color palette, he just showed up. You know, go ahead and tell everybody like, you know where they can find that.Your website is gonna be in the show notes. I'm gonna put your link tree so people can find you in case you wanna go ahead and vocalize it. You can tell them where they can find that in your book. Andrew: Thank you so much. Yeah, you. Search for the show on Amazon Prime, just type American beauty star, and you can binge watch me on season one.I'm right there working all the magic. That's where I started writing a book as form of therapy. While we were quarantined, I had no access to devices, so I would resort back to my hotel room and just start drawing and went back to my roots. What brings me passion is that's my, my craft. And then I wrote the book.This has been a four year project. The first year was to [00:49:00] write and edit the book. The second year was to design the cover of the book as well as the cover of each chapter. So I took 10 models and painted them from head to toe and turned them into these characters that you see on, on the cover of the book that represent Theia cards.And through the process of making the body makeup is when I realized there was like a lack of pigment. So I went into product development and that's where I chose to create my first palette, which is called . And you can see like one of the actual models wearing the colors and all the artwork inside is in, is in, is the artwork that's infused into the book.So it's all part of the same brand. And then through that, seeing my models get emotional and hot and you know, sweaty, I decided to also make a fan, which is also part of the same collection. And all the artwork from the book is infused onto the fan. And I lastly have a calendar. Which is good [00:50:00]for 2023.So this is the only way you can get the actual print of each card is by having your Amos Art calendar. So you can find everything on amos art.com or love is art artist love.com and that's where you can shop for the palette, the fan, the calendar, and the book as well. You can also go to Amazon and search for the book and just type Andrew Velazquez.And then my website is andrew velazquez.com for my salon portfolio and all the thanks, beauty tutorials, et cetera, De'Vannon: all the things. I love the options. You know, are you a Sagittarius as well? Andrew: US gays like options too. De'Vannon: You right. That's damn true. So, you know, I'm born on December 16th. I need everything.And so, Andrew: oh, nice. We're close. Capric the 27th Capricorn. Yeah. Capricorn. Oh, you can? Yeah, you can come. I have a [00:51:00] Saurus Rising double Capricorn with the Sagittarius Rising and all my besties are Sagittarius as well. You can come De'Vannon: to the Sagittarius Ki Keani. I'm gonna get you in. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So this is, so I looked up a couple of the videos and y'all, I love Andrew's his Instagram and his YouTube channel or Clutch.He has this beautiful avatar, avant garde look that he does on this girl, which is so like on tempo right now with the way of the water just coming out. You know, he has a Marvel inspiration stuff that he does. Th this, he does full body art, not just face, you know, this is head to toe fear shit, bitch.Here. Shout out to Mama Ru Paul right now. So on, on this American Beauty star. We're gonna talk about Lady Gaga, RuPaul, dim Lovato last. It's gonna out. So you're good before that. American Beauty star. So I look this up. So you got this panel of judges, these people on here doing this makeup, Andrew's in charge of the full scale production for this Oh.Show and everything. And then they will [00:52:00] be judged just like you've seen on Project Runway, you know, all the different things. So Andrew comes out, this stone cold bitch is sitting there with like white hair, you know, white outfit. And the, the person that left the review, I, I don't, I, I don't think that was Christie.I think that was the other girl. And and Andrew: so anyway, it was Huda from Huda Beauty, De'Vannon: right? And so I think somebody might have thought she was a little bit too hard, but, you know, I was just leaving everybody's opinions for that. But you know, Andrew's out there on stage and they're like, are like Andrew and then all the stuff, no, every judge's face just has no fucking emotions.You know how they fuck with the contestants and, and they leave them there in silence. For, for what? Felt like an eternity for me. And I wasn't even the one on stage. Yeah. Felt like Andrew. He's all like, oh shit. The look on the look on your face. We loved your look.[00:53:00]Andrew: That's exactly how it was. Oh my God, you did your research. Well, you gonna be so goddamn dramatic right De'Vannon: now. I'm, I'm sitting here in my house, gimme a cup of tea to deal with this stress. And you know, Andrew did well. He made it to the top three. That's a big deal to be there that long with all of that shit going on.And I love the way that you would talk with your co, I guess competition, friends, I don't know exact term on set. Mm-hmm. You know, in the back. But it's almost like you were there like guide, you know, you were giving them advice and everything like that and like keeping them together. It was very nurturing the words you would say to them on this show.Talk to me about your experience on this show before we talk about Gaga. Andrew: Oh, yes. No oh my God. That it feels, what was it like five years ago? Yeah, it was five years ago. I had just wrapped working with [00:54:00] Tyra Banks on America's Next Top model. So, and that was like the third cycle that I had worked with her doing hair and makeup.And, and what I did while I was on Top Model is I absorbed her like a sponge, cuz I knew that this show, American Beauty Star was coming right around the corner. And so the premise of American Beauty Star was to basically be Tyra Banks create a director. So not only did I have to do hair and makeup, but I had to conceptualize and create the runway for the fashion show design, the wardrobe accessorize, design the nail.I also had to choose the music for the, the platform. I had to tell Emily Rose, the International Vogue cover director to photograph and tell the model how to pose. So all these things that I knew were coming up, I knew like, this is, this is what I do like this. I'm, I feel very good about this. I feel very confident going into this.And I'm gonna come in, in, in a [00:55:00] humble approach. And so that was my intent, right? Going into this and always putting the energy exuding out for my mother's health is what I would kind of like meditate every day on my own. Because they said, you're gonna be quarantined for three weeks. Do you have no access to your devices?You have no access to your loved ones. You're, this is a frozen hard environment, which is basically you can't talk, you can't speak unless the cameras are on. And it's a production strategy to conserve your energy for camera type. But it's also. A psyching test to test your patients, your stress levels.And it's so funny because that's where I started developing this little twitch that happens on my arm. It's actually happening right now as we speak. I don't know if you can see it, like the little eye on the, it's switching a little bit, whatever, to that degree. Yeah. And so and I never had that before until [00:56:00] this show, but because we were only allowed to bring paper and my old school like iPod, you shuffle, I would listen to music like Madonna Ray of Light.Obviously, you know, other people that would like made me zen. I came up with Zen Drew, and this is where I started drawing for the book and creating the concept behind of what I wanted to do. I didn't know I had a concept during the time of the the show though. I just knew that I was like, Journaling.This is my form of therapy. And so I, I, I, I listened to the direction from the judges. A Adrian a Lima is the host who I loved, and she's stunningly gorgeous, even more in person, more so in person. Serjan is our mentor whose Beyonce's makeup artist. And, you know because I had been in production on a reality competition show [00:57:00] before, I knew a little bit more, I had a little more insight on kind of what goes behind the scenes.But now I'm the one in front of the camera place on hard ice. So I kind of knew that there were, there was three parts to the, the production In the morning you would come in, dress in the outfit that you were in the last night's outfit that day we had to recreate for continuity, whatever we did on the challenge last night again.Then we would find out, like you saw with the white snow queen, that we were gonna stay or leave. And yes, I was sweating. My back was drenched and my arm was twitching. But my goal was to always listen to the, the, the feedback and put that into the next challenge. Then the second part of the day was your, your kind of like, your interviews and what you see in between they, they call 'em the confessionals.And so that's where oftentimes they would set you up with the producer [00:58:00] and they would ask you questions and I could pick up when they were trying to alter my answer or get something else outta me. And I would say, no, that's, that's not something that I would say. I'm not gonna say that. Don't ask me to say that.And I, I remember asking for a different producer when I didn't, when I was in vibing that, you know, the, this, this isn't coming out through for my best interest. This is coming out for. Airtime or production, and I'm not here for it. Like I wanna be authentic, Andrew and what I came up with, what's called my Zend.So they listened to that and I went, I had another producer, and she really made me feel like safe, made me feel heard, and, and, and I feel it's because of her. She was another angel that I was able to, to be vulnerable and to, and to be just true. And then the last part of the day was the next challenge.And then you're introduced to a new a new ex whatever [00:59:00] project you're gonna come up with. And I, I felt everybody's anxieties, right? I felt everyone's trying to, like some people were trying to be shady. So the what you see is real, you know, some of it, yes, it's beefed up because they want to stir up some drama specifically on America's next time model.But for American Beauty Star I think they were, they would, they would find. People's strengths and weaknesses and then enhanced them by and, you know what's the tar the right word? By instigating stuff and by asking right questions and by like probing. I wasn't here for it. I think they picked up on that.I think that's also why I didn't win. But I think that's why I made it to the finales because they knew like, oh, this guy, he's well put together. He's corporate, he's professional, but I wasn't drama. You know what I mean? And because I sense everyone else's anxieties, I would try to give them positivity and, and give them zen as and just tell [01:00:00] 'em to, Hey, just trust your, in your intuition.Just go with what brings you joy and follow that regardless of what everybody's telling you. Like follow that. And I feel like that's kind of like what helped me stay at towards the end. Although I didn't win in the winning title, I won so many other ways and growth and exposure and experience, I was able to open up a salon after that.And I'm very grateful for it, you know what I mean? Would I do it again? Absolutely. I would bring it on all stars. I will come back on season four and go up against my students, go up against whoever. And I'll win that. I'll win that bitch. I'll take that bitch home. Hell season four all stars. De'Vannon: Take me with you.I can I can supply the underwear. I'm sure y'all need a pit crew for my down under apparel brand. Hey, I can do something. Andrew: Let's go. De'Vannon: Okay. So then, so as you thank you for that breakdown. I love you had this fabulous experience and I just speak more exposure over you and riches, both in this world and in the one to come and in the [01:01:00] unseen realm too.Yes, Andrew: yes, yes. Between De'Vannon: Lady Gaga, RuPaul and Demi Lovato, which one of these can you give us the most dramatic story from, from working? Andrew: I mean, I can, I can talk about all of them briefly. Who did I work with first? It was probably RuPaul. We, Mac Cosmetics was the sponsor brand for season one, and through that sponsorship, David not only provided the cosmetics, they provided artistry support, which was myself and I managed the pro store on North Robertson in Beverly Hills and West Hollywood.So we were like the flagship that all entertainment would approach for. Sponsorship product, artistry help, whatever it was. So I worked on season one and we were in charge of just doing the guest judges. So I did like Michelle Williams from, you know, Destiny's Child. And Ru [01:02:00] Ru is just great.She's just such a big flirt and just you can feel her energy when she comes into the, the room. And this is still season one, so it was very fresh. I was invited to come back for season four this time through an agency and still do the guest judges and the pick crew as well. So we had to oil them up and and then you can see me actually on season four in the background cause they would sometimes have us be in the audience.And this is the one with Sharon Needles. I think who else was. Fifi O'Hara and they're fighting like on the wwf, kinda like wrestling. So you can see me in the back, like yelling. So that's a little behind the scenes. And then Gaga was through Sharon Gold, who was Madonna's hairstylist during the Blonde Ambition tour.And Sharon we're shop with us at Mac frequently to get product, to get her discount. Cause we offer, they offered a pro membership [01:03:00] discount for anybody in the industry. And so she hit us up once and said, Hey, I'm coming in tomorrow. Can you make sure that we have. A little private area. Yeah, absolutely.Yeah. We're gonna need your face charts, your pigments, and some brushes. I have an artist a musician that I'd love to introduce you guys to. She's new. She's up and coming. Okay, great. This is like during MySpace, right? So she was, they kept calling her a MySpace artist. I'm like, all right, cool, whatever.MySpace come in. All good. So here I meet this little tiny brunettes you know, skinny young, like 20 year old. She was like, twinky, right? Her name is Stephanie. And she is like, how do you, what do you do with these space charts? Show me how to use these space charts. I'm doing this music video and I want you to work on the music video.I'm like, okay, cool. Yeah. So I was Sharon's assistant for the music video love game. But again, not knowing who this individual was, I didn't even know her artist's name until we got to the set. And now they're saying, oh, you're working with Lady Gaga? Who's Lady Gaga? What is that? What does that [01:04:00] mean?And literally, In like a matter of two weeks, she was on logo Next, next now award show and overnight she just became this huge sensation and her album just like skyrocketed. And that was it. Like that was the one time consulting with her in the store and then working in the music video. And I will forever take that to my grave cause she's Queen, you know, to all of our LGBTQ community as well.And then Demi was for another big queer moment during the la gay Pride. And I was in charge of the avant garde body makeups. And I was also able to do her like glam that morning for a really don't care music video. So it was a 13 hour day. She's such a hard worker. I remember she just came back from Paris.She, this is when she used to shave the [01:05:00] CI of her hair. She's like, You know, can you clean me up? I didn't bring clippers cause I wasn't aware that I was gonna do like grooming and I, I just was prepared for makeup artistry. So I had to, th this is another fun fact I'm gonna share with your audience. I had to taper and sh and shave, fade the side of her head with lash scissors and a mascara one and just like a cute little blend to make it look tight.And then the rest of the day was turning these dancers into like mannequin avant garde, like avatar makeup. So like blue, pink, gold and black. And it was hot during real life on afloat, during la gay pride in a little pickup truck behind her, touching her up every so often and touching them up. Just exhausting, but, you know, really, really great to work with.And she was very gracious. And this is when she was dating I forget his name. The my Latino, I should [01:06:00] know his name, HETE. But anyhow, it was a, it was a great experience. She was fun. Gaga was fun, RuPaul was fun, and I love them all as artists. I think what they represent as, you know, ex a self-expression and what they do for our community is just, is awesome.So I'm gonna forever take that to my grave. Hell yeah. And De'Vannon: look, I hopefully you get to work with them again. I speak it so. Mm-hmm. So I've

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In This Episode: Andrew GottWorth shares his story of having Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) and how ERP allowed him to function again.  addresses the benefits of ERP and how ERP is for Everyone  How Exposure & response prevention can help people with OCD and for those with everyday stress and anxiety  Links To Things I Talk About: Andrew's Instagram @justrught ERP School: https://www.cbtschool.com/erp-school-lp Episode Sponsor: This episode of Your Anxiety Toolkit is brought to you by CBTschool.com.  CBTschool.com is a psychoeducation platform that provides courses and other online resources for people with anxiety, OCD, and Body-Focused Repetitive Behaviors.  Go to cbtschool.com to learn more.  Spread the love! Everyone needs tools for anxiety... If you like Your Anxiety Toolkit Podcast, visit YOUR ANXIETY TOOLKIT PODCAST to subscribe free and you'll never miss an episode. And if you really like Your Anxiety Toolkit, I'd appreciate you telling a friend (maybe even two). EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION  This is Your Anxiety Toolkit - Episode 308.  Welcome, everybody. I am really pumped for this episode. We have the amazing Andrew Gottworth on for an interview where he just shared so many nuggets of wisdom and hope and motivation. I think you're going to love it. But the main point we're making today is that ERP is for everyone. Everyone can benefit from facing their fears. Everyone can benefit by reducing their compulsive behaviors. Even if you don't technically call them compulsions, you too can benefit by this practice. Andrew reached out to me and he was really passionate about this. And of course, I was so on board that we jumped on a call right away and we got it in, and I'm so excited to share it with you. Thank you, Andrew, for sharing all your amazing wisdom.  Before we head into the show, let's quickly do the “I did a hard thing” for the week. This one is from Christina, and they went on to say: “Thought of you today, and you're saying, ‘It's a beautiful day to do hard things,' as I went down a water slide, terrified, as I'm well out of my comfort zone.” This is such great. They're saying that's on their holiday, the first time they've taken a holiday in quite a while. “It's difficult, but I'm doing it. I'm trying to lean into the discomfort.” This is so good. I love when people share their “I did a hard thing,” mainly, as I say before, because it doesn't have to be what's hard for everybody. It can be what's hard for you. Isn't it interesting, Christina is sharing a water slide is so terrifying? Christina, PS, I'm totally with you on that. But some of the people find it thrill-seeking. And then I'm sure the things that Christina does, she might not have anxiety, but other people who love to thrill seek find incredibly terrifying. So, please don't miss that point, guys. It is such an important thing that we don't compare. If it's terrifying, it's terrifying, and you deserve a massive yay. You did a hard thing for it. So, thank you, Christina.  Again, quickly, let me just quickly do the review of the week, and then we can set back and relax and listen to Andrew's amazing wisdom. This one is from Anonymous. Actually, this one is from Sydneytenney, and they said: “Incredible resource! What an incredible resource this podcast is! Thank you for sharing all of this information so freely… you're truly making a difference in so many lives, including mine! (I am also reading through your book and I LOVE it. You nailed it in marrying OCD with self-compassion - what a gift!!!)” So, for those of you who don't know, I wrote a book called The Self-Compassion Workbook for OCD. If you have OCD and you want a compassionate approach to ERP by all means, head over to Amazon or wherever you buy books and you can have the resource right there.  All right, let's get over to the show. Kimberley: Okay. Welcome, Andrew Gottworth. Thank you so much for being here. Andrew: Yeah. So, happy to be here. Really excited to chat with you for a bit. Kimberley: Yeah. How fun. I'm so happy you reached out and you had a message that I felt was so important to talk about. Actually, you had lots of ideas that I was so excited to talk about. Andrew: I might bring some of them up because I think, anyway, it's related to our big topic.  Erp Is For Everyone Kimberley: Yeah. But the thing that I love so much was this idea that ERP (Exposure and Response Prevention) is for everyone. And so, tell me, before we get into that, a little bit about your story and where you are right up until today and why that story is important to you. Andrew: Yeah. So, there's a lot, as you work in the OCD field that it takes so long between first experiencing to getting a diagnosis. And so, with the knowledge I have now, I probably started in early childhood, elementary school. I remember racing intrusive thoughts in elementary school and being stuck on things and all that. But definitely, middle school, high school got worse and worse. So, fast forward to freshman year of college, it was really building up. I was really having a lot of issues. I didn't know what it was and really didn't know what it was for nine, 10 years later. But I was having a really hard time in college. I was depressed. I thought I was suicidal. Learning later, it's probably suicidal ideation, OCD just putting thoughts of death and jumping up a building and jumping in a lake and getting run over and all that. But I didn't want to talk about it then, I think. Andrew's Story About Having Obsessive Compulsive Disorder A bit about me, I come from Kentucky. I count Louisville, Kentucky as the Midwest. We have a bit of an identity crisis, whether we're South Midwest, East Coast, whatever. But still there, there's a culture that mental health is for “crazy people.” Of course, we don't believe that. So, my tiptoe around it was saying, “I'm having trouble focusing in class. Maybe I have ADHD.” And that's what I went in for. For some reason, that was more palatable for me to talk about that rather than talk about these thoughts of death and all that. And so, I did an intake assessment and thankfully I was somewhat honest and scored high enough on the depression scale that they were like, “Hey, you have a problem.” And so, ended up talking more. So, back in 2009, freshman year of college, I got diagnosed with depression and generalized anxiety disorder, but completely missed the OCD. I think they didn't know about it. I didn't know about it. I didn't have the language to talk about it at the time because I didn't have hand washing or tapping and counting and these other things that I would maybe see on TV and stuff, which – yeah, I see you nodding – yes, I know that's a common story.  So, I entered therapy in 2009, and I've been in therapy and non-medication ever since. But I had problems. I still had problems. I would make progress for a bit. And then I just feel like I was stuck. So, I ended up being in three mental hospitals. One, when I was doing AmeriCorps up in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and had a great experience there. Two, three days up there at Rogers, which I'm very grateful for. And then stabilized moving forward. So, I ended up-- I dropped outta college. I dropped out of AmeriCorps. I then went back to college and again went to a mental hospital in Bowling Green, Kentucky. I was at Western Kentucky University, stabilize, keep going. Learning lessons along the way, learning cognitive distortions and learning talk therapy, and all these.  So, let's keep fast-forwarding. Another mental hospital in Atlanta, Georgia. There's a long-term outpatient stay, Skyline Trail. I'm thankful for all of these places along the way. And I wish somewhere along the way, I knew about OCD and knew about ERP, our big topic for the day.  So, finally, gosh, I can't quite remember. I think 2018, a few years ago, still having problems. I had gone from full-time at work to part-time at work. I was just miserable. I would get into my cubicle and just constantly think, I'm not going to make it. I got to go home. I got to find an excuse to get out of here early. I just need to stay sick or I got to go home, or something came up. And so, every day I'd have an excuse until I finally was like, “I'm going to get found out that I'm not working full-time. I'm going to jump the gun, I'll voluntarily go down in part-time.”  So, that worked for a bit until OCD kept going. And then I quit. I quit again. And at that point, I was like, “I've failed. I've quit so many things – college, AmeriCorps.” I was a summer camp counselor and I left early. “Now this job. I need something.” So, I went again to find more help. And finally, thankfully, someone did an intake assessment, came back, and said, “Well, one problem is you have OCD.” I was like, “What? No, I don't have that. I don't wash my hands. I'm not a messy person. I'm not organized.” Gosh, I'm so thankful for her.  Kimberley: Yeah, I want to kiss this person.  Andrew: Yeah. But here's the duality of it. She diagnosed me with it. I am forever grateful. And she didn't do ERP. She didn't know it. So unbelievably thankful that I got that diagnosis. It changed my life. And then I spent several weeks, maybe a few months just doing talk therapy again. And I just knew something didn't feel right. But I had this new magical thing, a diagnosis. And so, my OCD latched onto OCD and researched the heck out of it. And so, I was researching, researching, researching, and really starting to find some things like, “Oh, this isn't working for me. I've been doing the same type of therapy for a decade and I'm not making progress.” Unbelievably thankful for the Louisville OCD Clinic. So, at this point in this story-- thanks for listening to the whole saga.  Kimberley: No, I've got goosebumps. Andrew: I'm unemployed, I have my diagnosis, but I'm not making any progress. So, I go, “Throw this in as well. Not really that important.” But I go to an intensive outpatient program in Louisville before the OCD clinic. And I remember this conversation of the group therapy leader saying, “I need you to commit to this.” And I said, “But I don't think this is helping me either,” because the conversation was about relationships, my relationship was great. It was about work, I wasn't working. It was about parents, my parents were great. They were supporting me financially. They're super helpful and loving and kind. It's like, “None of this is external.” I kept saying, “This is internal. I have something going on inside of me.” And she said, “Well, I want you to commit to it.” I said, “I'm sorry, I found a local OCD clinic. I'm going to try them out.”  So, I did IOP, I did 10 straight days, and it is a magical, marvelous memory of mine. I mean, as you know, the weirdest stuff, oh gosh. Some of the highlights that are quite humorous, I had a thing around blood and veins. And so, we built our hierarchy, and maybe we'll talk about this in a bit, what ERP is. So, built the hierarchy, I'm afraid of cutting my veins and bleeding out. So, let's start with a knife on the table. And then the next day, the knife in the hand. And then the next day, the knife near my veins. And then we talked about a blood draw. And then the next day, we watched a video of a nurse talking about it. Not even the actual blood draw, but her talking about it. So, of course, my SUDs are up really high. And the nurse says in the video, “Okay, you need to find the juiciest, bumpiest vein, and that's where you put it in.” And my therapist, pause the video. She said, “Perfect. Andrew, I want you to go around to every person in the office and ask to feel the juiciest, bumpiest veins.” Oh my gosh. Can you imagine?  Kimberley: The imagery and the wording together is so triggering, isn't it? Andrew: Right. She's amazing. So, she was hitting on two things for me. One, the blood and veins, and two, inconveniencing people. I hated the inconveniencing people or have awkward moments. Well, hey, it's doing all three of these things. So, I went around. And of course, it's an OCD clinic, so nobody's against it. They're like, “Sure, here you go. This one looks big. Here, let me pump it up for you.” And I'm like, “No, I don't like this.” Kimberley: Well, it's such a shift from what you had been doing.  Andrew: It's totally different. I'll speak to the rest because that's really the big part. But ERP over the next few years gave me my life back. I started working again. I worked full-time. Went part-time, then full-time. Got into a leadership position. And then for a few other reasons, my wife and I decided to make a big jump abroad. And so, moved to Berlin. And I have a full-time job here and a part-time disc golf coach trainer. And now I'm an OCD advocate and excited to work with you on that level and just looking at where my life was four or five years ago versus now. And thanks to our big-ticket item today, ERP. Kimberley: Right. Oh, my heart is so exploding for you. Andrew: Oh, thank you.  Kimberley: My goodness. I mean, it's not a wonderful story. It's actually an incredibly painful story. Andrew: You can laugh at it. I told it humorously. How Andrew Applied Erp For His Ocd Kimberley: No. But that's what I'm saying. That's what's so interesting about this, is that it's such a painful story, but how you tell it-- would I be right in saying like a degree of celebration to it? Tell me a little bit about-- you're obviously an ERP fan. Tell me a little bit about what that was like. Were you in immediately, or were you skeptical? Had you read enough articles to feel like you were trusting it? What was that like for you? Because you'd been put through the wringer. Andrew: Yeah. There's a lot to talk about, but there are a couple of key moments when you mention it. So, one, we're going through the Y-BOCS scale, the Yale-Brown Obsessive Compulsive Scale, something like that. So, she asks me one of the questions like, how often do you feel like a compulsion to do something and you don't do the compulsion? “Oh, never. I've never stopped. But you can do that?” It was just this moment of, “What do you mean?” If it's hot, I'm going to make it colder. If it's cold, I'm going to make it warmer. If I'm uncomfortable, I'm going to fidget. I'm a problem solver. Both my parents were math teachers. I was an all-A student and talk about perfectionism and “just right” OCD maybe in this context as well. But also, I love puzzles. I love solving things. And that was me. I was a problem solver. It never occurred to me to not solve the problem. And so, that was a huge aha moment for me. And I see it now and I talk about it now to other people.  Am I Doing Erp “Just Right”? But another part of ERP with the just right is, am I doing ERP right? Am I doing it right? Am I doing ERP right? And of course, my therapist goes, “I don't know. Who knows? Maybe, maybe not.” So, depending on where you want to go with this, we can talk about that more. So, I think in general, I hated that at the time. I was like, “I know there is a right way to do it. There is. I know there is.” But now, I even told someone yesterday in our Instagram OCD circles, someone was posting about it, and I said exactly that, that I hated this suggestion at first that maybe you're doing it wrong, maybe you're not.  I will say, as we talk about ERP for everyone, someone who maybe is going to listen to this or hears us talking on Instagram and wants to do it on their own, this idea of exposing yourself to something uncomfortable and preventing the response – I don't know if this is wrong, but I will say for me, it was not helpful. In my first few weeks, I would do something like-- I was a little claustrophobic, so I maybe sit in the middle seat of a car. It's good I'm doing the exposure. I'm preventing the response by staying there. I didn't get out. But in my head, I'm doing, “Just get through this. Just get through this. I hate this. It's going to be over soon. You'll get through it and then you'll be better. Come on, just get through it. Oh, I hate this. Ugh. Ugh.” And then you get to the end and you go, “Okay, I made it through.” And of course, that didn't really prevent the response. That reinforced my dread of it. And so, I would say that's definitely a lesson as we get into that.  Kimberley: And I think that brings me to-- you bring up a couple of amazing points and I think amazing roadblocks that we have to know about ERP. So, often I have clients who'll say early in treatment, “You'd be so proud I did the exposure.” And I'd be like, “And the RP, did that get included?” So, let's talk about that. So, for you, you wanted to talk about like ERP is for everyone. So, where did that start for you? Where did that idea come from? Andrew: I would say it's been slow going over the years where-- I don't know how to say this exactly, but thinking like, there must be higher than 2% of people that have OCD because I think you have it and I think you have it and I think you have it, and noticing a lot of these things. And so, maybe they're not clinical level OCD and maybe it's just anxiety or I think, as I emailed you, just stress. But it's this-- I just wonder how many friends and family and Instagram connections have never had that aha moment that I did in my first week of IOP of, “Oh, I cannot try to solve this.” And so, I see people that I really care about and I joked with my wife, I said, “Why is it that all of our best friends are anxious people?” And I think that comes with this care and attention and that I've suffered and I don't want anyone else to suffer. And so, I see that anxiety in others. But getting back to what I see in them, maybe someone is socially anxious so they're avoiding a party or they're leaving early, or-- I mean, I did these two, avoided, left early, made sure I was in either a very large group where nobody really noticed me or I was in a one-on-one where I had more control. I don't know. So, seeing that in some other friends, leaving early, I just want to say to them, you can stay. It's worked for me. It really has. This staying, exposing yourself to the awkwardness of staying or maybe it's a little too loud or it's too warm. And then let that stress peak fall and see, well, how do you feel after 30 minutes? How do you feel after an hour? I want to scream that to my friends because it's helped me so much. I mean, you heard how awful and miserable it was for so long and how much better. I'm not cured, I think. I'm still listening to your six-part rumination series because I think that's really what I'm working on now.  So, I think those physical things, I've made tremendous improvement on blood and veins and all that. But that's also not why I quit work. I didn't quit working. I didn't quit AmeriCorps because there's so much blood everywhere. No, it's nonprofits, it's cubicles. But it was this dread that built this dread of the day, this dread of responding to an email. Am I going to respond right? Oh no, I'm going to get a phone call. Am I going to do that? Am I going to mess this up? And because I didn't have that response prevention piece, all I had was the exposure piece, then it's-- I can't remember who said it, but like, ERP without the RP is just torture. You're just exposing yourself to all these miserable things.  Kimberley: You're white-knuckling.  Andrew: Yeah. And it's-- I love research. I am a scientist by heart. I'm a Physics major and Environmental Studies master's. I love research and all this. And so, I've looked into neuroplasticity, but I also am not an expert. Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I hear, you're just reinforcing that neural pathway. So, I'm going into work and I dread it. I'm saying, “I hate this. I can't wait to go home. I hate this.” So, that's reinforcing that for the next day. And tomorrow I go in and that dreads bigger, and the next day the dreads bigger.  And so, seeing that in other colleagues who are having a miserable time at work is just getting worse and worse and worse. But I also can see that there are parts they enjoy. They enjoy problem-solving, they enjoy helping students, they enjoy the camaraderie. And so, I want to help them with, well, let's see how we can do ERP with the things you don't like and so you're not building this dread day after day and you can do the things you value. Seems like you value us coworkers, seems like you value helping the students, seems like you value solving this problem, and that's meaningful. But I'm watching you get more and more deteriorated at work. And that's hard to do that in others.  ERP Is For Everyone Kimberley: Yeah. I resonate so much from a personal level and I'll share why, is I have these two young children who-- thankfully, I have a Mental Health degree and I have license, and I'm watching how anxiety is forming them. They're being formed by society and me and my husband and so forth, but I can see how anxiety is forming them. And there's so many times-- I've used the example before of both my kids separately were absolutely petrified of dogs. And they don't have OCD, but we used a hierarchy of exposure and now they can play with the neighbor's dogs. We can have dogs sitting. And it was such an important thing of like, I could have missed that and just said, “You're fine. Let's never be around dogs.” And so, it's so interesting to watch these teeny tiny little humans being formed by like, “Oh, I'm not a dog person.” You are a dog person. You're just afraid of dogs. It's two different things. Andrew: Yeah. So, it's funny that my next-door neighbor, when I was young, had a big dog. And when we're moving into the house for the very first time, very young, I don't know, four or something, it ran into the house, knocked me over, afraid of dogs for years. So, same thing. Worked my way up, had a friend with a cute little pup, and then got to a scarier one. And also, funnily to me, my next-door neighbor, two in a row, were German, and they scared me, the scary dog, German. And then the next one was the “Stay off my lawn, don't let your soccer ball come over.” So, for years, I had this like, “I'm not going to root for Germany in sports. I don't like Germany.” And then here I am living in Germany now. Kimberley: Like an association. Andrew: Yeah. So, I think fear association, anxiety association. And then I'm also playing around with this idea, maybe do a series on Instagram or maybe another talk with someone about, is it anxiety or is it society? And so, talking about things that were made to feel shame about. So, I don't know if you can see on our webcam that I have my nails painted. I would never have done this in Kentucky. So, growing up in this, I remember vividly in elementary school, I sat with my legs crossed and someone said, “That's how a girl sits. You have to sit with your foot up on your leg.” So, I did for the rest of my life. And then I wore a shirt with colorful fish on it, and they said, “Oh, you can't wear that, guys don't wear that.” So, I didn't. I stopped wearing that and all these things, whether it's about our body shape or femininity or things we enjoy that are maybe dorky or geeky. I just started playing Dungeons and Dragons. We have a campaign next week. And I remember kids getting bullied for that.  I don't know if you agree, but I see this under the umbrella of ERP. So, you're exposing yourself to this potential situation where there's shame or embarrassment, or you might get picked on. Someone might still see these on the train and go, “What are you doing with painted nails?” And I'm going to choose to do that anyway. I still get a little squirmy sometimes, but I want to. I want to do that and I want that for my friends and family too. And I see it in, like you said, in little kids. A lot of my cousins have young kids and just overhearing boys can't wear pink, or you can't be that when you grow up, or just these associations where I think you can, I think you can do that. Kimberley: I love this so much because I think you're so right in why ERP is for everyone. It's funny, I'll tell you a story and then I don't want to talk about me anymore, but-- Andrew: No, I want to hear it. That's fine. Kimberley: I had this really interesting thing happen the other day. Now I am an ERP therapist. My motto is, “It's a beautiful day to do hard things.” I talk and breathe this all day, and I have recovered from an eating disorder. But this is how I think it's so interesting how ERP can be layered too, is I consider myself fully recovered. I am in such good shape and I get triggered and I can recover pretty quick. But the other day, I didn't realize this was a compulsion that I am still maybe doing. I went to a spa, it was a gift that was given to me, and it says you don't have to wear your bathing suit right into the thing. So, I'm like, “Cool, that's fine. I'm comfortable with my body.” But I caught myself running from the bathroom down into the pool, like pretty quickly running until I was like, that still learned behavior, it's still learned avoidance from something I don't even suffer from anymore. And I think that, to speak to what you're saying, if we're really aware we can-- and I don't have OCD, I'm open about that. If all humans were really aware, they could catch avoidant behaviors we're doing all the time that reinforces fear, which is why exposure and response prevention is for everybody. Some people be like, “Oh, no, no. I don't even have anxiety.” But it's funny what you can catch in yourself that how you're running actually literally running.  Andrew: Literally running. Yeah. Kimberley: Away. So, that's why I think you've mentioned how social anxiety shows up and how exposure and response prevention is important for that. And daily fears, societal expectations, that's why I think that's so cool. It's such a cool concept. Andrew: Yeah. And so, help me since I do consider you the expert here, but I've heard clinically that ERP can be used for OCD but also eating disorder, at least our clinic in Louisville serves OCD, eating disorder, and PTSD. And so, I see the similarities there of the anxiety cycle, the OCD cycle for each of those. So, then let's say that's what ERP is proposed for. But then we also have generalized anxiety and I think we're seeing that. I've heard Jenna Overbaugh talk about that as well. It's this scale between anxiety to high anxiety to subclinical OCD, to clinical OCD, and that ERP is good for all of that. So, we have those, and then we get into stress and avoidant behavior. So, I have this stressful meeting coming up, I'll find a way to skip it. Or I have this stressful family event, I'll find a way to avoid it. And then you get into the societal stuff, you get into these. And so, I see it more and more that yes, it is for everyone. Kimberley: Yeah. No, I mean, clinically, I will say we understand it's helpful for phobias, health anxiety, social anxiety, generalized anxiety. Under the umbrella of OCD are all these other disorders and, as you said, spectrums of those disorders that it can be beneficial for. And I do think-- I hear actually a lot of other clinicians who aren't OCD specialists and so forth talking about imposter syndrome or even like how cancel culture has impacted us and how everybody's self-censoring and avoiding and procrastinating. And I keep thinking like ERP for everybody. And that's why I think like, again, even if you're not struggling with a mental illness, imposter syndrome is an avoidant. Often people go, procrastination is an avoidant behavior, a safety behavior or self-censoring is a safety behavior, or not standing up for you to a boss is an opportunity for exposure as long as of course they're in an environment that's safe for them. So, I agree with you. I think that it is so widespread an opportunity, and I think it's also-- this is my opinion, but I'm actually more interested in your opinion, is I think ERP is also a mindset. Andrew: Yeah. Kimberley: Like how you live your life. Are you a face-your-fear kind of person? Can you become that person? That's what I think, even in you, and actually, this is a question, did your identity shift? Did you think you were a person who couldn't handle stresses and now you think you are? Or what was the identity shift that you experienced once you started ERP? Andrew: Yeah. That's a good question. I've had a few identity shifts over the years. So, I mentioned-- and not to be conceited, although here I am self-censoring because I don't want to come across as conceited anyway. So, I was an all-A student in high school, and then OCD and depression hit hard. And so, throughout college, freshman year I got my first B, sophomore year I got my first C, junior year I got my first D. And so, I felt like I was crawling towards graduation. And this identity of myself as Club President, all-A student, I had to come to terms with giving up who I thought I could be. I thought I could be-- people would joke, “You'll be the mayor of this town someday, Andrew.” And I watched this slip away and I had to change that identity. And not to say that you can't ever get that back with recovery, but what I will say is through recovery, I don't have that desire to anymore. I don't have that desire to be a hundred percent. I'm a big fan of giving 80%. And mayor is too much responsibility. I don't know, maybe someday. So, that changed.  And then definitely, through that down downturn, I thought, I can't handle this. I can't handle anxiety, I can't handle stress. People are going to find out that this image I've built of myself is someone who can't handle that. So, then comes the dip coming back up, ERP, starting to learn I can maybe but also-- I love to bounce all over the place, but I think I want to return a bit to that idea that you don't have to fix it. You don't have to solve the problem. I think that was me. And that's not realizing that I was making it harder on myself, that every moment of the day I was trying to optimize, fix, problem-solve.  If you allow me another detour, I got on early to make sure the video chat was working, sound was okay. And I noticed in my walk over to my computer, all the things my brain wanted me to do. I call my brain “Dolores” after Dolores Umbridge, which is very mean to me. My wife and I, Dolores can F off. But I checked my email to make sure I had the date right. Oops, no, the checking behavior. Check the time, making sure, because we're nine hours apart right now. “Oh, did I get the time difference right?” I thought about bringing over an extra set of lights so you could see me better. I wanted to make sure I didn't eat right before we talked, so I didn't burp on camera, made sure I had my water, and it was just all these-- and if I wasn't about to meet with an OCD expert, I wouldn't have even noticed these. I wouldn't have even noticed all of these checking, fidgeting, optimizing, best practicing. But it's exhausting.  And so, I'm going to maybe flip the script and ask you, how do you think other people that are not diagnosed with OCD, that are just dealing with anxiety and stress can notice these situations in their life? How do they notice when, “Oh, I'm doing an avoidant behavior,” or “I'm fixing something to fix my anxiety that gives me temporary relief”? Because I didn't notice them for 10 years. Kimberley: Yeah. Well, I think the question speaks to me as a therapist, but also me as a human. I catch every day how generalized anxiety wants to take me and grab me away. And so, I think a huge piece of it is knowledge, of course. It's knowledge that that-- but it's a lot to do with awareness. It's so much to do with awareness. I'll give you an example, and I've spoken about this before. As soon as I'm anxious, everything I do speeds up. I start walking faster, I start typing faster, I start talking faster. And there's no amount of exposure that will, I think, prevent me from going into that immediate behavior. So, my focus is staying-- every day, I have my mindfulness book right next to me. It's like this thick, and I look at it and I go, “Okay, be aware as you go into the day.” And then I can work at catching as I start to speed up and speed type.  So, I think for the person who doesn't have OCD, it is, first, like you said, education. They need to be aware, how is this impacting my life. I think it's being aware of and catching it. And then the cool part, and this is the part I love the most about being a therapist, is I get to ask them, what do you want to do? Because you don't have to change it. I'm not doing any harm by typing fast. In fact, some might say I'm getting more done, but I don't like the way it makes me feel. And so, I get to ask myself a question, do I want to change this behavior? Is it serving me anymore? And everyone gets to ask them that solves that question. Andrew: So, I think you bring up a good point though that I'm curious if you've heard this as well. So, you said you're typing fast and you're feeling anxious and you don't like how that feels. I would say for me, and I can think of certain people in my life and also generally, they don't realize those are connected. I didn't realize that was connected. In college, I'm wanting to drop out, I drop out of AmeriCorps, I drop out of summer camp. I'm very, very anxious and miserable and I don't know why. And looking back, I see it was this constant trying to fix things and being on alert. And I got to anticipate what this is going to be or else is going to go bad. I need to prevent this or else I'm going to have an anxious conversation. I need to only wear shorts in the winter because I might get hot. Oh no, what if I get hot? And it was constantly being in this scanning fear mindset of trying to avoid, trying to prevent, trying to-- thinking I was doing all these good things. And I saw myself as a best-practice problem solver. It's still something I'm trying to now separate between Dolores and Andrew. Andrew still loves best practices. But if I spend two hours looking for a best practice when I could have done it in five minutes, then maybe that was a waste. And I didn't realize that was giving me that anxiety.  So, yeah, I guess going back to I think of family, I think of coworkers, I think of friends that I have a suspicion, I'm not a therapist, I can't diagnose and I'm not going to go up, I think you have this. But seeing that they're coming to me and saying, “I'm exhausted. I just have so much going on,” I think in their head, it's “I have a lot of work.” Kimberley: External problems. Andrew: Yeah. I may be seeing-- yeah, but there's all this tension. You're holding it in your shoulders, you're holding it here, you're typing fast and not realizing that, oh, these are connected.  Kimberley: And that's that awareness piece. It's an awareness piece so much. And it is true. I mean, I think that's the benefit of therapy. Therapists are trained to ask questions so that you can become aware of things that you weren't previously aware of. I go to therapy and sometimes even my therapist will be like, “I got a question for you.” And I'm like, “Ah, I missed that.” So, I think that that's the beauty of this.  Andrew: I had a fun conversation. I gave a mental health talk at my school and talked about anxiety in the classroom, and thanks to IOCDF for some resources there, there's a student that wanted to do a follow-up. And I thought this was very interesting and I loved the conversation, but three or four times he was like, “Well, can I read some self-help books, and then if those don't work, go to therapy?” “No, I think go to therapy right away. Big fan of therapists. I'm not a therapist. You need to talk to a therapist.” “Okay. But what if I did some podcasts and then if that didn't work, then I go to therapy?” “Nope. Therapy is great. Go to therapy now.” “Should I wait till my life gets more stressful?” “Nope. Go now.” Kimberley: Yeah, because it's that reflection and questioning. Everyone who knows me knows I love questions. They're my favorite. So, I think you're on it. So, this is so good. I also want to be respectful of your time. So, quick rounded out, why is ERP for everybody, in your opinion? Andrew: How do we put this with a nice bow on it?  Kimberley: It doesn't have to be perfect. Let's make it purposely imperfect. Andrew: Let's make it perfectly imperfect. So, we talked before about the clinical levels – OCD, eating disorder, PTSD, generalized anxiety disorder. If you have any of those, take it from me personally, take it from you, take it from the thousands of people that said, “Hey, actually, ERP is an evidence-based gold standard. We know it works, we've seen it work. It's helped us. Let it help you because we care about you and we want you to do it.” And then moving down stress from work, from life. You have a big trip coming up. There's a fun scale, home's rocky, something stress inventory. I find it very interesting that some of them are positive, outstanding personal achievement like, “Oh, that's a stressful thing?” “Yeah, It can be.” And so, noticing the stressful things in your life and saying, “Well, because of these stressful things are the things I'm avoiding, things I'm getting anxious about, can I learn to sit with that?” And I think that mindfulness piece is so important.  So, whether you're clinical, whether you're subclinical, whether you have stress in your life, whether you're just avoiding something uncomfortable, slightly uncomfortable, is that keeping you from something you want to do? Is that keeping you-- of course, we-- I don't know if people roll their eyes at people like us, “Follow your values, talk about your values.” Do you value spending time with your friends, but you're avoiding the social gathering? Sounds like ERP could help you out with that. Or you're avoiding this, you want to get a certification, but you don't think you'll get it and you don't want to spend the time? Sounds like ERP could help with that. We're in the sports field. My wife and I rock climbing, bouldering, disc golf. You value the sport, but you're embarrassed to do poorly around your friends? Sounds ERP can help with that. You value this thing. I think we have a solution. I've become almost evangelical about it. Look at this thing, it works so well. It's done so much for me. Kimberley: Love it. Okay, tell me where-- I'm going to leave it at that. Tell me where people can hear about you and get in touch with you and hear more about your work. Andrew: Mainly through Instagram at the moment. I have a perfectly imperfect Instagram name that you might have to put down. It's JustRught but with right spelled wrong. So, it's R-U-G-H-T. Kimberley: That is perfect. Andrew: Yeah. Which also perfectly was a complete accident. It was just fat thumbs typing out my new account and I said, “You know what, Andrew, leave it. This works. This works just fine.” Kimberley: Oh, it is so good. It is so good. Andrew: Yeah. So, I'm also happy I mentioned to you earlier that my wife and I have started this cool collab where I take some of her art and some of the lessons I've learned in my 12-plus years of therapy and we mix them together and try to put some lessons out there. But I'm currently an OCD advocate as well. You can find me on IOCDF's website or just reach out. But really excited to be doing this work with you. I really respect and admire your work and to get a little gushing embarrassed. When I found out that I got accepted from grassroots advocate to regular advocate, I said, “Guys, Kimberley Quinlan is at the same level as me.” I was so excited. Kimberley: You're so many levels above me. Just look at your story. That's the work. Andrew: The imposter syndrome, we talked about that earlier. Kimberley: Yeah, for sure. No, I am just overwhelmed with joy to hear your story, and thank you. How cool. Again, the reason I love the interviews is I pretty much have goosebumps the entire time. It just is so wonderful to hear the ups and the downs and the reality and the lessons. It's so beautiful. So, thank you so much. Andrew: I will add in, if you allow me a little more time, that it's not magic. We're not saying, “Oh, go do ERP for two days and you'll be great.” It's hard work. It's a good day to do hard things. I think if it was easy, we wouldn't be talking about it so much. We wouldn't talk about the nuance. So, I think go into it knowing it is work, but it is absolutely worth it. It's given me my life back, it's saved my relationships, it's helped me move overseas, given me this opportunity, and I'm just so thankful for it. Kimberley: Yeah. Oh, mic drop. Andrew: Yeah. Kimberley: Thank you again.

Theme: Legislating NFTs New proposal released this week from Senators Gillibrand and Lummis Most crypto products would be treated as commodities, not securities NFTs are a new asset class, with further clarification to come no taxes on crypto transactions under $200 Affordable project: https://www.degenlabz.xyz/ - Block_Bounce https://opensea.io/collection/dgnkdz    NFT NewsRantum NFT Market Data,  Cryptoslam.io NFT Headlines: Crypto Legislation Is Coming Altcoin Buzz  Bitcoin miners urge New York's governor to veto moratorium passed by the Senate  Bored Ape Co-Founder Blames Discord After A 200 ETH Security Breach  Forget the Crypto Slump -- Pace is Furthering its Web3 Ambitions by Partnering with NFT Platform Art Blocks  Ethereum's Ropsten proof-of-stake 'test merge' goes live    Transcript:   [00:00:00] George: Today on all about affordable NFCS we're talking about legislating, non fungible tokens. There may be actual, real semi coherent policy making its way through the bowels of our government, which we can cover the high notes and share with that. But first, Andrew, how's it going? Anything new in the wallet? [00:00:24] Andrew: Oh, new and the wallet. Uh, man, I wasn't actually ready for that. I did pick up, uh, our blocks most recent. Um, it was recent curated piece. Uh, most our curated collection as a collection of 500 a day picked up one of those and luckily was able or picked up two of them was luckily, luckily lucky in my, uh, mince and got one re uh, rare gold one in there. [00:00:47] So I was happy with that. Um, kind of a cool piece that it, uh, They all generate noise from them. And it's a, there's a digital piece to it, but it doesn't actually loop. So it's, it's interesting. They're not, um, on the surface as just individual pieces, they don't look all that interesting. But we, when you dive into it a bit more, it's, uh, there's more going on there. [00:01:08] So how about you, you pick up anything. [00:01:10] George: Well, a couple of our projects, which I'll disclose, uh, a couple of deejaying kids and a admitted, uh, and to start Tosha, which may come up as a future project, but I have disclosed it and we shared it in our discord. I also, for whatever reason, I can't, I can't say no to two breeding horses. I got a couple, I got a couple of mayors that are just fantastic horses and I just keep breeding. [00:01:32] I'm not sure why [00:01:34] Andrew: you got to do [00:01:34] George: not even, I'm not even naming them yet. [00:01:36] Andrew: you gotta click buttons. You gotta put transactions on that chain. It's just, uh, it's, it's addicting. You can't get away from it. So even in a bear market, you gotta find something to do, right. [00:01:47] George: Yeah. I want to be clear there's there's no, there's no window to profitability. Unless one of them ends up being like the next, the next great hype, um, which from a probabilistic standpoint is a low breed, decent horses, but it's been rough and the old pony game anyway, let's uh, what's going on in the news. [00:02:04] Andrew: Yeah, well, you know, it's been, been awfully quiet out there for them in terms of trading overall volume has been low, but we do have big news. As you mentioned, we've got. Uh, some legislation that was proposed this week, a bipartisan bill coming from senators, Gillibrand in littleness. Um, so we will get into some of the details of that later, but it is, um, it is nice to see that there's something going on here. [00:02:29] Um, General. It was one of the big things. So for NFTs is that we're going to seem to need to wait and see how these, uh, how inept use will be, will be treated, what they are looking at, creating a new asset asset class for NFTs. So that is that's interesting, you know, we don't know what that means quite yet, but it does mean that there's not really something out there that seems to be a good fit for what NFTs are. [00:02:54] And I would tend to agree with that. [00:02:56] George: Yeah. Well, we currently have is not working so hope. Hopefully there is some intelligence coming. [00:03:06] Andrew: We'll get more into that later on. Um, so another bit of, uh, sort of legislative news here. Was it New York? The state, just a, um, they passed eight are they let's see, they are going to continue. Putting him with a moratorium on against big claim of minded usage in the state. They will not allow Bitcoin mining in the state. [00:03:30] So I, I do find this interesting. I don't see many other, uh, technologies or use cases of electricity that are generally, uh, forbidden. there being other reasons that they're breaking the law. So, um, this is interesting, you know, we'll see, you know, I'm sure that there are what we've already seen, that there are other states that are quite welcoming to, uh, to minors. [00:03:54] Um, but you know, that's also quite a change at some point to at least for, for the Ethereum mining world. So, um, interesting. That this has happened. I think this may, you know, we'll start to see, we've talked about this, how it just becoming a bigger political issue. I think that crypto will become a bigger issue as we go here. [00:04:14] George: Yeah. In general, when you find yourself limiting the freedoms of what Americans can do with public utilities that they pay for, um, Americans don't tend to. It's not a thing. They, uh, they really rally behind. [00:04:26] Andrew: No. Oh, and it would not be a podcast episode without talking about a scan and of course, board apes. And I don't mean that those always go together, but we do see a lot. We do see a lot in this time was it was a 200. Security breach after someone gained access to their discord, posted a link for minting, some sort of new project. [00:04:49] Of course, people Abe right into that, uh, before verifying if it was a legit link or not was not spent 208th. So, um, one of the board, eight founders after this came out and blamed discord security on this, you know, at seams. Uh, I don't know. It seems like board the board ape or the Yugo labs team seems always seems very quick to point the finger at someone else when something goes wrong. [00:05:18] A lot of other projects have had these issues happen and they take responsibility and deal with it. And you know, it's certainly not the first discord scam that we see not going to be the last and it's not unique to subordinate. [00:05:33] George: So for those of you keeping track, it was a theories fault that they duffed the mint and there were problems there. So they're gonna build their own layer. Uh, it was probably Facebook's fault when their Instagram got hacked and people got stolen. It's now discourse all that. They lost their passwords and password management for it. [00:05:53] So right now, just to keep telly at home on their to-do list is build their own layer. One, build their own massive photo sharing website and mobile app to compete and basically fix what's wrong with Instagram and all. Recreate discord, a, a massive online community for secure, uh, conversations in groups. [00:06:13] I feel like they got a great roadmap here. [00:06:16] Andrew: Yeah. I mean, I think I've seen this playbook before, you know, startups that just decide that they can take on everything in the world because one thing's going well, it's it usually works out quite well. Right. Is that, is that true or do they [00:06:30] George: I never read to the end. [00:06:31] of any story or book. So I'm always on the, like the heroes rise and never get to the conclusion of anything. So I see nothing wrong with this pattern of behavior. [00:06:41] Andrew: good. Yeah. All right. Yep. So Turkey's doing well too, right? Never get to the end. What their, [00:06:50] George: No spoilers. [00:06:52] Andrew: all right. So actually I should mention that the board ape community. The, or the dowel or the members of the Dow. So those are eight token holders just voted against the proposal to move to a new chain or to start their own chain, whatever it was, they want to stay on the Ethereum network. It was a relatively close, uh, vote. [00:07:14] I think it was about. I came on 55, 50 7%, uh, against moving off of a theory them. So there were a couple of large holders. I think there was one that actually had about 17% of the votes. So, um, he realized that ha only takes a few holders to, to really swing things there. And, uh, they are staying on Ethereum, which as we've said, I think is the right move. [00:07:34] That's where they got their start and it has helped them immensely. So I think that's good, but you see a large part of the community still wants to leave the network. [00:07:42] All right. Next one here. We've got, uh, pace, uh, the pace, art, art gallery, or art. Uh, what do you call it? That I know the name pays art. Um, but they're partnering with. Um, just ahead of NFP NYC, sounds like they will have a gallery open during the event. Um, so certainly it lends more credibility to, to generative art, uh, such as those that are, uh, produce bone, the art blocks platform [00:08:13] George: Yeah, you love following the, uh, the art box stuff. And, you know, we talked about not NYC. She getting ready for a ride. You punch your ticket yet. [00:08:22] Andrew: going soon, going soon. [00:08:24] George: Nice. [00:08:26] Andrew: And then one more, uh, we mentioned this here, that we've got the Ethereum proof of stake customer has gone live. So what does that mean? It means that one, the first test that they have several test networks of the Ethereum network, the first one for the, the merged. Ben talked about where proof, where a theory that moved from a proof of work to proof of proof of stake network. [00:08:56] Um, the they'll do, I think it's three or four. I think it's three different networks to test this out. The first one's gone live, it seems like it has gone. Uh, there was one little, uh, issue that. Figured out pretty quickly. So that is good news. They'll continue to do some work tests. Sounds like if everything goes well. [00:09:14] Um, if ever as far as testing here that the merge could be live by August. Uh, one of the core developers of Ethereum has said that it would be no later than December, so they are pretty confident or they're very competent that it will come this year. Um, you know, we can talk more about that. We've alluded to, to this in the past, but it will be a big difference for the network as far as for, for, uh, NFT users for collectors. [00:09:40] It shouldn't really make much of a difference in order to make any difference in what we're experiencing or doing on the network, but it will be big for, um, uh, for some of the arguments against NFTs and also for, uh, the scalability of Ethereum in general. [00:09:56] George: Yeah, I think we've put off having a speculation of what this means, because the mergers like this they've mythically talked about it as early as 2017. So, you know, keep that in the back of your mind, but this is a very, very positive, real code, real push and real example of something going well overall, you know, the highlights is that it won't decrease the cost of gas. [00:10:16] So, you know, transferring your NFTs are still going to be ridiculous at the time and wait for gas. It will, I believe increase, uh, the underlying asset for a number of reasons, which means that your. And FTS will, you know, appreciate it, that at that value. Um, and it's a good sign for, for that network and the base hopefully, but who knows? [00:10:40] I feel like we should do an episode on it and just speculate. It's not ready though. I want to wait until like July when it's like more of like a, an incoming thing, [00:10:49] Andrew: it's coming. July. July is around the corner. I mean, here, this, this episode is what we are getting towards. Yeah. We're mid junior. [00:10:58] George: it? A late? Let's wait for a few more tests. Net runs, and then we'll just speculate on, uh, what we think the merge might do to NFTs [00:11:05] Andrew: absolutely. We should. I love to speculate and then be wrong. [00:11:10] George: and then delete. Do you ever go back into the edit it? No, we're too lazy for that. All right. Do we have yes and affordable project. Okay. [00:11:20] Thank you block bounce for sharing this, uh, pretty ridiculous project D Jen's NFT. And you know, I'm not quite sure where to begin other than first off, you have to go to this website, but also like Warren be warned when you do, because it's, um, it's very noisy. [00:11:43] And so with this kids, it's, uh, I have thousands of collection of 5,000 of these things. And I can't even think with this noise, it's a collection of. Yeah, 5,555. The creators are doxed. The actual leader of it is a very, very young, I think they're like 22, but also there's like a web dev involved. There is a marketer involved. [00:12:13] So, you know, you actually know this team. The actual art is pretty simple. I'd say this, you know, comic base, but they're trying to harken back. There's windows themed website and there's like flappy birds on it It's hilarious. It looks like literally like your windows 95 background is so there I'm missing new drops and other pieces around that current floor sits around 0.03 for, uh, owner to item ratio is about 50%. Which is kinda, which is good, you know, in terms of distribution and they have an active discord though. It's a little weird because I'd say that the number of people in this discord is far more than the number of holders. There's always like, all right, they may have juiced, uh, they may have do some numbers, uh, along the way, uh, to have a total number of discord legions at 34,000, but only have 27 holder 2,700 holders means yes, Yeah, they did some, some hacks to get that number, number, number, go up. [00:13:11] Andrew: Yeah, it definitely looks like they've played around with those numbers a bit. I love the love, the website here, windows 95. I actually had clicked off that, came back to it and was trying to figure out what was going on, on where the page went, because there was just all sorts of lines, moving all over my screen and then realized that they built in a screensaver for this site as well. [00:13:33] So it's a, it's a really cool site. I like it. I hadn't heard about this until we were just talking about it right before the show here. So checking it out. I do like the, uh, like the art here. They're all animated little pieces or if they all have an element of animation, um, That is, I don't love when I see the numbers being way off like that, you know, I, uh, uh, you know, I'm sure that it's, it's, we know that it's not the most common, um, practice out there, but you know, like to see when things do grow organically, um, you know, and I'm sure that it sounds like they are doing that as well, because we've definitely had this bro, you know, thank you for bringing this to us, uh, block balanced by the way, you know, so they're definitely getting organic growth as well. [00:14:15] So that's good to see. [00:14:17] George: Full disclosure. Three of these things around somewhere, uh, they've got this poison drop coming, but they're doing it in a clever way. Well, they'll, you know, drop an extra thing that as they claim will be. Important in their ecosystem, but you have to have an unlisted, so you can see there, they're playing the game. [00:14:36] They're trying to get people to D lists so that they can more quickly like manipulate the floor and manipulate the price and value. Like they're marketers, they're they're savvy and you know, they're, they're going to hustle for a bit. So, um, I wouldn't say this is a long-term hold, but, um, I'm playing the game. [00:14:54] I'm playing the game. Cause it's interesting watching these like Freemans and Lomans like some random ones are just taking off, uh, with a team and energy to just, not as many as before now, the overall market was about 5% down over the past week in terms of like NFT volume. But it's still things that are taking off randomly. [00:15:14] Andrew: Yeah, that's true. There's definitely, there's definitely still movement in some projects here and there. It's, it's sneaky because there's like you said, not a ton of volume out there. So you got to look closely to find it right now. [00:15:25] George: Yeah, exactly. And I did, I did see some volume and that's one of the things that actually initially attracted to me or attracted me to it. Like they quickly mint it out. So there was a hype and interest and, you know, Ms. A team with a plan that stocks. Okay. So, you know, my financial advice and talking about JPEGs on the unit. [00:15:41] Andrew: All right. Yeah. Thanks again. To block bounds for bringing that up. [00:15:44] George: Legislating NFTs. I'm excited. I just, I, you know, I, uh, I thought this day would kind of not come, but there are top line points, you know, to pull out that are in this proposed bill. It was, uh, I can't believe that they did this, but guess how many pages the proposed bill was? [00:16:06] Andrew: 69. Was it 69? [00:16:08] George: It was 69. So 69 paid proposal. Somebody did that on purpose [00:16:15] Andrew: Oh, man. Yeah. Well, [00:16:16] George: that doesn't have an [00:16:17] Andrew: there's N yeah, there's no better way to ingratiate yourself to the crypto community than by following the meme. [00:16:26] George: Ha ha you must obey the means, but there, uh, I mean, so actually, you know, in keeping with that, it was it's actually, I'd say net, net favorable, um, one is they're proposing. It'd be no new taxes on crypto transactions under $200. So that's like a nod on saying like, look, if I'm doing it as a transaction, why do I have to pay capital gains on something? [00:16:47] Also acting like a currency. So that is a, that's a huge, huge, huge thing. If you're talking about that, um, people have the right to self custody of their digital assets. That is awesome. Meaning that, um, if you bought something on a platform that was acting as a custodian and they didn't allow you to also get your own wallet involved or export it, like that's not allowed. [00:17:10] And that's a fantastic standard. Another one, most crypto assets are viewed as commodities rather than securities and, you know, super complicated when you get into it. But right now they're looked at as commodities. I think that's good overall because the sec does not like [00:17:28] Andrew: Yes, less SCC involvement I would say is generally a good thing. [00:17:33] George: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's, that's the good Cliff's notes on It [00:17:36] Andrew: It would make it a lot more complicated for, for NFT or for crypto projects in general, if everything was a security and you had to basically get here to all of the sec regulations when creating any kind of crypto project. [00:17:52] George: Yeah, very, very common. Mining taxes, mined Bitcoin currently taxed as income at the moment it gets mined. I think this is also like a touch on like defy as well. Like the moment it gets my versus realized. So like, there's a question of like, has this been realized yes or no? And you actually can get stuck with a pretty big tax bill from something that fluctuates in price after it gets dropped to you. And this could also be. You know, you know, we talked about, for instance, like flower fam things that are distributing coins to you, does that happen at the point that it was distributed to you or the point that you move it into its next phase? And that's a big, big, big difference sometimes, especially, uh, speaking to somebody who held Elvis at two different points in time. [00:18:38] And when they were worth a thousand X a different. [00:18:41] Andrew: And which way are they? I'm sorry, I didn't actually see that part. Which way are they going to, are they proposing to legislate that? [00:18:47] George: Yeah. So they're saying that, uh, the bill is proposing that miners will not be taxed after they sell. So it's the moment of sale, not the moment of distribution. Right? [00:18:58] Andrew: Great. Okay. That's yeah, I'd say that's much more fair to, to the minor, you know, there's less pressure to sell them too, because when you, if you're texting on the point that you get it, you sort of need to sell some immediately to cover those taxes. And that's not great either. [00:19:16] George: Yeah. There's a lot of problems there, especially with how quickly, again, like these currencies can change. And, uh, another big one is that stable coins have to maintain a hundred percent reserve intent. Luna. [00:19:29] Andrew: Yeah, that's obviously a good one to have in there after the Luna disaster. Um, although I, you know, I'm not sure that it will, I don't know. I'm not sure it would have prevented that, that problem in general. [00:19:43] George: I mean USD T right. Tether, classically as like, uh, a varied bank of assets that back it, but where it's not entirely clear what those assets. They actually had the firepower to withstand what seemingly was a follow on attack to them. But I think a logic, a lot of those things are just logical. It's like I quit. [00:20:03] I couldn't believe how much common sense was in this bill. And I was, I was shocked actually. [00:20:08] Andrew: Yeah. I mean, it seems good overall, you know, we, you know, it would be great to get some more clarity on how NFTs will be treated. Uh, sounds like we are going to have to wait a bit for that. Um, a new asset class makes me think that, you know, there's at least some consideration being given to the accident. [00:20:27] These can't be treated with. With what we currently have in place. And, you know, I'm hopeful that that means that we will find something that I don't know isn't treating every sale with under a year, like a short-term capital gains sale. Um, I, you know, I think that we need to find a better way because the taxes right now in, in on NFTs are, it's a big, it's a big cost when. [00:20:55] When you're trading these and you know, at this point, there's certainly, it's certainly difficult to say that you're going to buy and hold for over a year. Um, and in most cases, [00:21:07] George: But think about the functionality as well, that is ultimately hampered in any sort of forge mechanic. Right? So for a thing where I have to take two entities and merge them together to get a new thing, what did I just do? I just incurred a short-term capital gain tax on. Those those assets. And now I have this new asset, like it simply doesn't work treating it as this type of commodity with these types of, uh, short-term long-term gains, uh, involve it. [00:21:34] It's hampering the tech in the same way that when online stores and e-commerce first came out and they were like, well, how do we do sales tax? Because it's on the online, each individual statement still like a bit confusing, but there are some standards that have rolled out that said like, okay, here's a new technology and a new way that things need to operate. [00:21:52] Andrew: Yeah. I mean, something that did happen, you know, you're right. That, that did take time for taxes to roll out with correctly with e-commerce and, you know, brought to mind. Amazon fought against those for so long. And then once they sort of had their position, you know, we're quick to, to fight for tax laws being put in place. [00:22:14] And I do hope that, you know, we, aren't looking at another situation where it's helping the current, uh, or the established players and, and at a, at a detriment to, uh, to. Players that are coming up in the crypto market possessed. We know we're still very young here and we need a lot more new things coming up. [00:22:35] So I hope that that is, you know, that we are really fostering innovation in this space. When, when this, uh, built is finalized. [00:22:44] George: Yeah, I didn't see any note on like when this might. Come through at all. I feel like they have a slow summer to get here, but I'd imagine sometime this year. [00:22:56] Andrew: Yeah, I would hope so. Um, you know, Uh, well I'm sure. See lots of, uh, political, um, I don't know, arguing about this as we get to midterm elections as well, because I think that, you know, as I say, I think crypto will become a bigger and bigger issue in elections and politics in general. [00:23:17] George: I think you're right. The crypto friendly politician and policy was going to be a very, very quick button to get pressed for money. Little thing I know about politicians, they like money. And so if you're saying that, Hey, we're crypto friendly and I have crypto friendly policies. See right here, you're going to get support from the community. [00:23:38] You know, notably, you know, same Sam Bain and freed said he may be dropping. Seriously, billions of dollars on this election cycle. And it wasn't saying that it wasn't going to be explicitly around crypto, but let's be honest. If a crypto multi-billionaire is becoming a, you know, active political force, it may Dawn on you that you may have the need to have a crypto policy in mind. [00:24:04] And probably be one that is semi favorable as are frankly. Most tax law policies that favor the rich in our country. Anyway. So like you're, even if you have small bags, you're like you're on a big wagon. I think. [00:24:20] Andrew: Yeah. You know, it's a good way of putting it. Um, you know, we do have to hope that these people, we have to hope that the crypto industry fights the right way and you know, and it does make me concerned. There's a lot of really big bag holders that don't necessarily need to, uh, that don't have the, aren't looking for the same outcome as a lot of other people that are in crypto as most of the people that are in crypto. [00:24:48] Um, you know, and they, you know, just be careful, I guess, as we're, as we're getting into this, the pro crypto, um, stance can be a wide range of things. [00:24:59] George: Yeah, that's true. There's a lot that fits under that umbrella. And it's easy to paint right now with one brush because there's, there's only like X number of million wallets involved, but once that starts getting up there, there's going to be a wider array, I think is really good though. A reminder of how early we are in NFTs, like genuinely early, like the asset class and tax laws have not even been established for this technology yet. [00:25:27] And now once it does get there and you'd have the U S government taking seriously, the idea of crypto and non vulnerable tokens and this idea of digital ownership as something that's going to be passed into law. And once it does, it will definitely. everyone is not coming, but it is a strong narrative for why this is not a fad and why this will be here over a longer period of time. [00:25:52] Andrew: Yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing the, uh, the NFT section of the wall street journal at some point. [00:25:58] George: Oh, the fact that they're not selling their own pages, just silly, like sell your own bed, like the times should be doing it every day. It's such a no brainer for money. I just feel like there are just stodgy humans that are just like, we can't do it on principle. Like cool. Is that the same principle that lets you run all those ads? [00:26:17] Andrew: Hi magazine has managed to move ahead. Somehow nobody was paying attention to time magazine for a long time. And. They decided to get active in NFD isn't there. I don't know. They're certainly they're active and they're doing new things. And I think they're bringing in a whole lot more in digital revenue than they were before. [00:26:40] George: Yeah. Well, when your back is against the wall, you tend to try new things. And so there you go, right? Desperation brings out innovation. All right. that's what I got. We'll follow it. If there's a new, a new vote or something moved on it. I love speculating on this kind of thing, but positive. Wow. Positive things. [00:26:59] Andrew: All right. Good talking to George. [00:27:02] George: See ya.    

Lockdown may be over, but our store of lockdown tales is not. Music: Creepy — Bensound.com.   Here are some Totally Made Up Tales brought to you by the magic of the internet.   Try placing your hands on my thighs and then rub.   Language makes it easy to understand other people and animals.   Friends don't listen to moaning. Friends tell each other to shut up.   One day, Maisie got out of bed, stretched, and thought, I wonder what I should do today. She arched her back and flicked her tail and stretched her claws. Perhaps she would go and chase birds. That will be a wonderful thing to pass the time, particularly if she could catch that fat blue tit that had been taunting her for days. She jumped up onto the window sill and out, climbing up onto the roof. From her high up vantage point, she looked over the gardens of the neighbourhood that she regarded quite rightly as her own. There, three gardens down, sat a bird. Perched on an old fashioned flat surfaced bird table covered in bacon rinds, pecking away at them with an arrogant swagger in its manner. Maisie extended her claws and licked them carefully, making sure that they were sharp and ready for action. Stealthily putting one paw in front of the other, she crept across the tiles of the roof, with the smoothness of a monorail. First, from her own house to the next door. And then the one beyond that, and finally to the one in whose garden the bird perched. She crouched low against the roof tiles, peering intently down at the bird, still unaware of her presence. And then, letting out a yodelling screech, she leapt for the bird table. Midway through her jump, the bird, alerted by her yodel, turned, looked at her, and took flight. Maisie landed on the bird table, which wobbled precariously. As it wobbled slightly, it fell onto its side and an ungainly heap of cat, bacon rind, and table were left on the lawn. From inside the house, Maisie heard the owner yelling. He was fumbling for the key for the back door and looked like the sort of angry red-faced man that might teach geography. Maisie took off like a shot. And crouched in the branches of a nearby tree where she wouldn't be able to be reached, she licked the bacon fat off her paws and was surprisingly pleased by the taste. Perhaps, she thought, I should hunt bacon next. The end.   Timothy sat down on a rock, at the side of the road. He was weary, having walked from the village all the way out to where he was now. The flat, marshy fields of the fens stretched out in a featureless expanse, as far as the horizon in all directions. He was beginning to worry that the pub that he was heading for, maybe didn't actually exist. It had sounded so attractive when his Airbnb host had recommended it to him as a pleasant Sunday afternoon outing. But now, the wind whistling between the rocks and the heather, he was having second thoughts. As he sat on his stone, a cold feeling started to creep from the rocks into his bones. He thought he should get moving again, but somehow couldn't quite pick up the energy to stand up. It seemed that he was getting heavier by the moment, and that his thoughts were slowing. His heart rate seemed to be slowing too. His pulse, almost impossible to discern. Eventually the sculpture park in Lowestoft became Britain's top tourist attraction for 2020.   Walking home one afternoon, Melissa stopped by a bank by the side of the road to pick some wild flowers. They were a wonderful selection of colours, bright yellow, dark purple, and pale cornflower blue. She wrapped them carefully in a scarf that she had with her, and took them home and arranged them in a vase. The smell of the flowers filled her living room. It was rich and intoxicating, with that edge of the night that comes from wild flowers. Even by the time she was getting ready to go to bed, she could still feel permeated through the house, the magic and feeling of dusk. As she slept, the land of dreams washed itself over the horizon of her consciousness. She saw herself dancing, dancing through fields of flowers, dancing with flowers, just dancing throughout the night. When she woke in the morning, it was not in the comfortable and familiar bed that she had gone to sleep in. Although the bed was still there, now it was twined with flowers. Every surface covered with creepers, with blooms, and even the very sheets had turned to patterned flowers. She lay in a bed entirely of flowers. As summer turned to autumn, the bloom of the flowers faded and the leaves of the creepers crinkled and shrivelled and prepared for the winter ahead. Now the house felt more cold than it had ever done. And she started to resist going to bed, staying up later and later, the bed feeling cold and unwelcoming when she slipped into it, finally. At last, on a chill October night, the first frost of the year came and carried her away. When they found her body cold, dark, and alone, creepers were still entwined with her limbs and a small wreath of still vibrant flowers sat upon her brow. The end.   Philip loved the colour purple, and everything that he owned, wherever possible, he would either buy in that colour or subsequently paint or dye to match his preference. He had purple socks, shoes, purple t-shirts and hats, purple house, a purple car, and a purple cat. He preferred purple food, although it wasn't always easy, but beetroots and certain types of broccoli for instance were among his favourites. He liked purple music, and that meant that he listened to a lot of Prince. And, at work sitting at his purple desk, wearing his purple suit, he picked up his purple phone and spoke to other people who did not appreciate purple to the same extent he did. Philip was a purple consultant. If the metaphor isn't clear to you at this point, then there's no hope for you in the modern world. The end.   The river flowed lazily between the sun-kissed fields. It had been a long summer, but Annabel was looking forward to the autumn. She had the kind of fair skin that burned easily, and much as she loved the bright summer days, she had found it taxing to constantly have to be lathering on factor 50, and finding a tree to be in the shade of, and covering up her arms. But now she could see that the harvest was coming in, and that meant that summer was at an end. Not only would she not have to worry about the sun for much longer, but she would soon see some of her friends again, returning from their summers. She walked along the bank of the river, enjoying the soft gurgling sound that it made as it flowed through the rushes and the low hanging bushes and overhanging trees on its banks. She wasn't really taking care of where she was going. She knew the landscape so well, she could find her way home from anywhere. But soon it was beginning to get dark, and then she realized she wasn't sure where she was. She looked up for a familiar marker for some sense of how far she had come, and whether it would make sense to continue or to turn back. There weren't any buildings that she could see nearby. Although the hills looked vaguely familiar in shape, but when she looked down to the river, it was much smaller than it should have been had she been anywhere near home. The light was fading, and the shadows were lengthening and thickening around her, and the now unfamiliar countryside was beginning to take on the sinister aspect of night. Desperately, she looked around, turning towards the setting sun to see if she could see any smoke rising from a settlement. But there was nothing, even the sounds of the motorway, which was less than 10 miles from her home, or of planes overhead, or of machines bringing in the harvest had dropped away. All she could hear was the burbling of the stream. And, as the sun went down, she heard the wolves crying. Ooh: the end.   Fly a kite in the wind. It'll be your freedom. Shopping with your mother leads to strife.   Jennifer pruned her rosebush. It was the first time in the year that she'd been able to get out into the garden, and she was relishing snipping off the bits that displeased her. This bush was her pride and joy, she had been tending it for many years, and it was hardy and produced fat flowers reliably every spring. As she pruned, she hummed to her herself, contentedly. She hummed a selection of popular classics, and she found that this not only soothed her but also seemed to please the rosebush in a way that she wasn't quite able to quantify. By the time her husband called her in for tea, she had pruned away all of the unwanted matter and left with a perfect rose bush fit for the growing season. She went into the house and closed the door behind her and looked out through the window as she sipped the delicious cup of tea that her husband had made for her. I think I'm in with a good chance at this year's show, she said to him. Out in the garden, the rose bush hummed softly to itself the overture from Cavalleria Rusticana. The end.   Dear Maggie, My breasts are not growing as fast as I'd like. What can I do? Yours, Apples   Dear Apples, Have you tried pumping your breasts using a bicycle pump? Alternatively, just get over it. Yours, Maggie   I'm James and I'm here with Andrew. These stories were recorded without advanced planning, and then lightly edited for the discerning listener. Join us next time for more Totally Made Up Tales.   Andrew: I mean there was a whole thing there... Cause there's a whole thing in medieval literature about, oh, her breasts were small and round like apples. They really loved, Medieval Britons really loved apple shaped – James: They really loved describing breasts, I think is what you're saying. I'm sure that there are many instances of, so: monk, this illustration you've done. Why exactly are you so keen on these breasts the size of apples? Do we have to see them? I mean, is it necessary to the story you're illustrating in any way? And also, what's this flying penis doing? Andrew: It's a useful sex aid for church-sanctioned marital intercourse. James: Surely in medieval church-sanctioned intercourse breasts are generally not for sex. I mean, I'm guessing a little, but I can't imagine that there was a Papal Encyclical going: it's okay to motorboat. Andrew: No, but the point is that as a visual cue... James: Breasts mean sex. Andrew: Yes, yes, yes. James: Yes I suppose so. Andrew: Hemispheres is like, oh, fleshy hemispheres. It's like, oh, razzle. That's just how we work. James: Certainly if you were a monk, and didn't see any women, I can imagine you're just going: oh, it's a pair of apples. Andrew: Oh, two eggs have aligned in a bowl. James: I'm just imagining a monk, a monk preparing dinner in the kitchen and he calls over his monk buddy, going, "Hey, look at that!" And he just looks at him... And it's just two eggs. It's like, "Yes, yes, yes Michael it's two eggs. What's your point?"

Andrew Oh is an emerging author, avid dog walker, and chocolate milk connoisseur. A medical school student by day, and children's author by night, he has a heart for serving the community. He is also the co-founder of the Family Homework Club, an after-school educational program serving low-income families in the city of St. Louis. Andrew believes that storytelling is our greatest method of communication, and he hopes to make the world a better place, word by word, book by book. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

About AndrewI create free cloud certification courses and somehow still make money.Links: ExamPro Training, Inc.: https://www.exampro.co/ PolyWork: https://www.polywork.com/andrewbrown LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrew-wc-brown Twitter: https://twitter.com/andrewbrown TranscriptAndrew: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief cloud economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at Redis, the company behind the incredibly popular open source database that is not the bind DNS server. If you're tired of managing open source Redis on your own, or you're using one of the vanilla cloud caching services, these folks have you covered with the go to manage Redis service for global caching and primary database capabilities; Redis Enterprise. To learn more and deploy not only a cache but a single operational data platform for one Redis experience, visit redis.com/hero. Thats r-e-d-i-s.com/hero. And my thanks to my friends at Redis for sponsoring my ridiculous non-sense.  Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at Rising Cloud, which I hadn't heard of before, but they're doing something vaguely interesting here. They are using AI, which is usually where my eyes glaze over and I lose attention, but they're using it to help developers be more efficient by reducing repetitive tasks. So, the idea being that you can run stateless things without having to worry about scaling, placement, et cetera, and the rest. They claim significant cost savings, and they're able to wind up taking what you're running as it is in AWS with no changes, and run it inside of their data centers that span multiple regions. I'm somewhat skeptical, but their customers seem to really like them, so that's one of those areas where I really have a hard time being too snarky about it because when you solve a customer's problem and they get out there in public and say, “We're solving a problem,” it's very hard to snark about that. Multus Medical, Construx.ai and Stax have seen significant results by using them. And it's worth exploring. So, if you're looking for a smarter, faster, cheaper alternative to EC2, Lambda, or batch, consider checking them out. Visit risingcloud.com/benefits. That's risingcloud.com/benefits, and be sure to tell them that I said you because watching people wince when you mention my name is one of the guilty pleasures of listening to this podcast.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. My guest today is… well, he's challenging to describe. He's the co-founder and cloud instructor at ExamPro Training, Inc. but everyone knows him better as Andrew Brown because he does so many different things in the AWS ecosystem that it's sometimes challenging—at least for me—to wind up keeping track of them all. Andrew, thanks for joining.Andrew: Hey, thanks for having me on the show, Corey.Corey: How do I even begin describing you? You're an AWS Community Hero and have been for almost two years, I believe; you've done a whole bunch of work as far as training videos; you're, I think, responsible for #100daysofcloud; you recently started showing up on my TikTok feed because I'm pretending that I am 20 years younger than I am and hanging out on TikTok with the kids, and now I feel extremely old. And obviously, you're popping up an awful lot of places.Andrew: Oh, yeah. A few other places like PolyWork, which is an alternative to LinkedIn, so that's a space that I'm starting to build up on there as well. Active in Discord, Slack channels. I'm just kind of everywhere. There's some kind of internet obsession here. My wife gets really mad and says, “Hey, maybe tone down the social media.” But I really enjoy it. So.Corey: You're one of those folks where I have this challenge of I wind up having a bunch of different AWS community Slacks and cloud community, Slacks and Discords and the past, and we DM on Twitter sometimes. And I'm constantly trying to figure out where was that conversational thread that I had with you? And tracking it down is an increasingly large search problem. I really wish that—forget the unified messaging platform. I want a unified search platform for all the different messaging channels that I'm using to talk to people.Andrew: Yeah, it's very hard to keep up with all the channels for myself there. But somehow I do seem to manage it, but just with a bit less sleep than most others.Corey: Oh, yeah. It's like trying to figure out, like, “All right, he said something really useful. What was that? Was that a Twitter DM? Was it on that Slack channel? Was it that Discord? No, it was on that brick that he threw through my window with a note tied to it. There we go.”That's always the baseline stuff of figuring out where things are. So, as I mentioned in the beginning, you are the co-founder and cloud instructor at ExamPro, which is interesting because unlike most of the community stuff that you do and are known for, you don't generally talk about that an awful lot. What's the deal there?Andrew: Yeah, I think a lot of people give me a hard time because they say, Andrew, you should really be promoting yourself more and trying to make more sales, but that's not why I'm out here doing what I'm doing. Of course, I do have a for-profit business called ExamPro, where we create cloud certification study courses for things like AWS, Azure, GCP, Terraform, Kubernetes, but you know, that money just goes to fuel what I really want to do, is just to do community activities to help people change their lives. And I just decided to do that via cloud because that's my domain expertise. At least that's what I say because I've learned up on in the last four or five years. I'm hoping that there's some kind of impact I can make doing that.Corey: I take a somewhat similar approach. I mean, at The Duckbill Group, we fixed the horrifying AWS bill, but I've always found that's not generally a problem that people tend to advertise having. On Twitter, like, “Oh, man, my AWS bill is killing me this month. I've got to do something about it,” and you check where they work, and it's like a Fortune 50. It's, yeah, that moves markets and no one talks about that.So, my approach was always, be out there, be present in the community, talk about this stuff, and the people who genuinely have billing problems will eventually find their way to me. That was always my approach because turning everything I do into a sales pitch doesn't work. It just erodes confidence, it reminds people of the used mattress salesman, and I just don't want to be that person in that community. My approach has always been if I can help someone with a 15-minute call or whatnot, yeah, let's jump on a phone call. I'm not interested in nickel-and-diming folks.Andrew: Yeah. I think that if you're out there doing a lot of hard work, and a lot of it, it becomes undeniable the value you're putting out there, and then people just will want to give you money, right? And for me, I just feel really bad about taking anybody's money, and so even when there's some kind of benefit—like my courses, I could charge for access for them, but I always feel I have to give something in terms of taking somebody's money, but I would never ask anyone to give me their money. So, it's bizarre. [laugh] so.Corey: I had a whole bunch of people a year or so after I started asking, like, “I really find your content helpful. Can I buy you a cup of coffee or something?” And it's, I don't know how to charge people a dollar figure that doesn't have a comma in it because it's easy for me to ask a company for money; that is the currency of effort, work, et cetera, that companies are accustomed to. People view money very differently, and if I ask you personally for money versus your company for money, it's a very different flow. So, my solution to it was to build the annual charity t-shirt drive, where it's, great, spend 35 bucks or whatever on a snarky t-shirt once a year for ten days and all proceeds go to benefit a nonprofit that is, sort of, assuaged that.But one of my business philosophies has always been, “Work for free before you work for cheap.” And dealing with individuals and whatnot, I do not charge them for things. It's, “Oh, can you—I need some advice in my career. Can I pay you to give me some advice?” “No, but you can jump on a Zoom call with me.” Please, the reason I exist at all is because people who didn't have any reason to did me favors, once upon a time, and I feel obligated to pay that forward.Andrew: And I appreciate, you know, there are people out there that you know, do need to charge for their time. Like—Corey: Oh. Oh, yes.Andrew: —I won't judge anybody that wants to. But you know, for me, it's just I can't do it because of the way I was raised. Like, my grandfather was very involved in the community. Like, he was recognized by the city for all of his volunteer work, and doing volunteer work was, like, mandatory for me as a kid. Like, every weekend, and so for me, it's just like, I can't imagine trying to take people's money.Which is not a great thing, but it turns out that the community is very supportive, and they will come beat you down with a stick, to give you money to make sure you keep doing what you're doing. But you know, I could be making lots of money, but it's just not my priority, so I've avoided any kind of funding so like, you know, I don't become a money-driven company, and I will see how long that lasts, but hopefully, a lot longer.Corey: I wish you well. And again, you're right; no shade to anyone who winds up charging for their time to individuals. I get it. I just always had challenges with it, so I decided not to do it. The only time I find myself begrudging people who do that are someone who picked something up six months ago and decided, oh, I'm going to build some video course on how to do this thing. The end. And charge a bunch of money for it and put myself out as an expert in that space.And you look at what the content they're putting out is, and one, it's inaccurate, which just drives me up a wall, and two, there's a lack of awareness that teaching is its own skill. In some areas, I know how to teach certain things, and in other areas, I'm a complete disaster at it. Public speaking is a great example. A lot of what I do on the public speaking stage is something that comes to me somewhat naturally. So, can you teach me to be a good public speaker? Not really, it's like, well, you gave that talk and it was bad. Could you try giving it only make it good? Like, that is not a helpful coaching statement, so I stay out of that mess.Andrew: Yeah, I mean, it's really challenging to know, if you feel like you're authority enough to put something out there. And there's been a few courses where I didn't feel like I was the most knowledgeable, but I produced those courses, and they had done extremely well. But as I was going through the course, I was just like, “Yeah, I don't know how any this stuff works, but this is my best guess translating from here.” And so you know, at least for my content, people have seen me as, like, the lens of AWS on top of other platforms, right? So, I might not know—I'm not an expert in Azure, but I've made a lot of Azure content, and I just translate that over and I talk about the frustrations around, like, using scale sets compared to AWS auto-scaling groups, and that seems to really help people get through the motions of it.I know if I pass, at least they'll pass, but by no means do I ever feel like an expert. Like, right now I'm doing, like, Kubernetes. Like, I have no idea how I'm doing it, but I have, like, help with three other people. And so I'll just be honest about it and say, “Hey, yeah, I'm learning this as well, but at least I know I passed, so you know, you can pass, too.” Whatever that's worth.Corey: Oh, yeah. Back when I was starting out, I felt like a bit of a fraud because I didn't know everything about the AWS billing system and how it worked and all the different things people can do with it, and things they can ask. And now, five years later, when the industry basically acknowledges I'm an expert, I feel like a fraud because I couldn't possibly understand everything about the AWS billing system and how it works. It's one of those things where the more you learn, the more you realize that there is yet to learn. I'm better equipped these days to find the answers to the things I need to know, but I'm still learning things every day. If I ever get to a point of complete and total understanding of a given topic, I'm wrong. You can always go deeper.Andrew: Yeah, I mean, by no means am I even an expert in AWS, though people seem to think that I am just because I have a lot of confidence in there and I produce a lot of content. But that's a lot different from making a course than implementing stuff. And I do implement stuff, but you know, it's just at the scale that I'm doing that. So, just food for thought for people there.Corey: Oh, yeah. Whatever, I implement something. It's great. In my previous engineering life, I would work on large-scale systems, so I know how a thing that works in your test environment is going to blow up in a production scale environment. And I bring those lessons, written on my bones the painful way, through outages, to the way that I build things now.But the stuff that I'm building is mostly to keep my head in the game, as opposed to solving an explicit business need. Could I theoretically build a podcast transcription system on top of Transcribe or something like that for these episodes? Yeah. But I've been paying a person to do this for many years to do it themselves; they know the terms of art, they know how this stuff works, and they're building a glossary as they go, and understanding the nuances of what I say and how I say it. And that is the better business outcome; that's the answer. And if it's production facing, I probably shouldn't be tinkering with it too much, just based upon where the—I don't want to be the bottleneck for the business functioning.Andrew: I've been spending so much time doing the same thing over and over again, but for different cloud providers, and the more I do, the less I want to go deep on these things because I just feel like I'm dumping all this information I'm going to forget, and that I have those broad strokes, and when I need to go deep dive, I have that confidence. So, I'd really prefer people were to build up confidence in saying, “Yes, I think I can do this.” As opposed to being like, “Oh, I have proof that I know every single feature in AWS Systems Manager.” Just because, like, our platform, ExamPro, like, I built it with my co-founder, and it's a quite a system. And so I'm going well, that's all I need to know.And I talk to other CTOs, and there's only so much you need to know. And so I don't know if there's, like, a shift between—or difference between, like, application development where, let's say you're doing React and using Vercel and stuff like that, where you have to have super deep knowledge for that technical stack, whereas cloud is so broad or diverse that maybe just having confidence and hypothesizing the work that you can do and seeing what the outcome is a bit different, right? Not having to prove one hundred percent that you know it inside and out on day one, but have the confidence.Corey: And there's a lot of validity to that and a lot of value to it. It's the magic word I always found in interviewing, on both sides of the interview table, has always been someone who's unsure about something start with, “I'm not sure, but if I had to guess,” and then say whatever it is you were going to say. Because if you get it right, wow, you're really good at figuring this out, and your understanding is pretty decent. If you're wrong, well, you've shown them how you think but you've also called them out because you're allowed to be wrong; you're not allowed to be authoritatively wrong. Because once that happens, I can't trust anything you say.Andrew: Yeah. In terms of, like, how do cloud certifications help you for your career path? I mean, I find that they're really well structured, and they give you a goal to work towards. So, like, passing that exam is your motivation to make sure that you complete it. Do employers care? It depends. I would say mostly no. I mean, for me, like, when I'm hiring, I actually do care about certifications because we make certification courses but—Corey: In your case, you're a very specific expression of this that is not typical.Andrew: Yeah. And there are some, like, cases where, like, if you work for a larger cloud consultancy, you're expected to have a professional certification so that customers feel secure in your ability to execute. But it's not like they were trying to hire you with that requirement, right? And so I hope that people realize that and that they look at showing that practical skills, by building up cloud projects. And so that's usually a strong pairing I'll have, which is like, “Great. Get the certifications to help you just have a structured journey, and then do a Cloud project to prove that you can do what you say you can do.”Corey: One area where I've seen certifications act as an interesting proxy for knowledge is when you have a company that has 5000 folks who work in IT in varying ways, and, “All right. We're doing a big old cloud migration.” The certification program, in many respects, seems to act as a bit of a proxy for gauging where people are on upskilling, how much they have to learn, where they are in that journey. And at that scale, it begins to make some sense to me. Where do you stand on that?Andrew: Yeah. I mean, it's hard because it really depends on how those paths are built. So, when you look at the AWS certification roadmap, they have the Certified Cloud Practitioner, they have three associates, two professionals, and a bunch of specialties. And I think that you might think, “Well, oh, solutions architect must be very popular.” But I think that's because AWS decided to make the most popular, the most generic one called that, and so you might think that's what's most popular.But what they probably should have done is renamed that Solution Architect to be a Cloud Engineer because very few people become Solutions Architect. Like that's more… if there's Junior Solutions Architect, I don't know where they are, but Solutions Architect is more of, like, a senior role where you have strong communications, pre-sales, obviously, the role is going to vary based on what companies decide a Solution Architect is—Corey: Oh, absolutely take a solutions architect, give him a crash course in finance, and we call them a cloud economist.Andrew: Sure. You just add modifiers there, and they're something else. And so I really think that they should have named that one as the cloud engineer, and they should have extracted it out as its own tier. So, you'd have the Fundamental, the Certified Cloud Practitioner, then the Cloud Engineer, and then you could say, “Look, now you could do developer or the sysops.” And so you're creating this path where you have a better trajectory to see where people really want to go.But the problem is, a lot of people come in and they just do the solutions architect, and then they don't even touch the other two because they say, well, I got an associate, so I'll move on the next one. So, I think there's some structuring there that comes into play. You look at Azure, they've really, really caught up to AWS, and may I might even say surpass them in terms of the quality and the way they market them and how they construct their certifications. There's things I don't like about them, but they have, like, all these fundamental certifications. Like, you have Azure Fundamentals, Data Fundamentals, AI Fundamentals, there's a Security Fundamentals.And to me, that's a lot more valuable than going over to an associate. And so I did all those, and you know, I still think, like, should I go translate those over for AWS because you have to wait for a specialty before you pick up security. And they say, like, it's intertwined with all the certifications, but, really isn't. Like—and I feel like that would be a lot better for AWS. But that's just my personal opinion. So.Corey: My experience with AWS certifications has been somewhat minimal. I got the Cloud Practitioner a few years ago, under the working theory of I wanted to get into the certified lounge at some of the events because sometimes I needed to charge things and grab a cup of coffee. I viewed it as a lounge pass with a really strange entrance questionnaire. And in my case, yeah, I passed it relatively easily; if not, I would have some questions about how much I actually know about these things. As I recall, I got one question wrong because I was honest, instead of going by the book answer for, “How long does it take to restore an RDS database from a snapshot?”I've had some edge cases there that give the wrong answer, except that's what happened. And then I wound up having that expire and lapse. And okay, now I'll do it—it was in beta at the time, but I got the sysops associate cert to go with it. And that had a whole bunch of trivia thrown into it, like, “Which of these is the proper syntax for this thing?” And that's the kind of question that's always bothered me because when I'm trying to figure things like that out, I have entire internet at my fingertips. Understanding the exact syntax, or command-line option, or flag that needs to do a thing is a five-second Google search away in most cases. But measuring for people's ability to memorize and retain that has always struck me as a relatively poor proxy for knowledge.Andrew: It's hard across the board. Like Azure, AWS, GCP, they all have different approaches—like, Terraform, all of them, they're all different. And you know, when you go to interview process, you have to kind of extract where the value is. And I would think that the majority of the industry, you know, don't have best practices when hiring, there's, like, a superficial—AWS is like, “Oh, if you do well, in STAR program format, you must speak a communicator.” Like, well, I'm dyslexic, so that stuff is not easy for me, and I will never do well in that.So like, a lot of companies hinge on those kinds of components. And I mean, I'm sure it doesn't matter; if you have a certain scale, you're going to have attrition. There's no perfect system. But when you look at these certifications, and you say, “Well, how much do they match up with the job?” Well, they don't, right? It's just Jeopardy.But you know, I still think there's value for yourself in terms of being able to internalize it. I still think that does prove that you have done something. But taking the AWS certification is not the same as taking Andrew Brown's course. So, like, my certified cloud practitioner was built after I did GCP, Oracle Cloud, Azure Fundamentals, a bunch of other Azure fundamental certifications, cloud-native stuff, and then I brought it over because was missing, right? So like, if you went through my course, and that I had a qualifier, then I could attest to say, like, you are of this skill level, right?But it really depends on what that testament is and whether somebody even cares about what my opinion of, like, your skillset is. But I can't imagine like, when you have a security incident, there's going to be a pop-up that shows you multiple-choice answer to remediate the security incident. Now, we might get there at some point, right, with all the cloud automation, but we're not there yet.Corey: It's been sort of thing we've been chasing and never quite get there. I wish. I hope I live to see it truly I do. My belief is also that the value of a certification changes depending upon what career stage someone is at. Regardless of what level you are at, a hiring manager or a company is looking for more or less a piece of paper that attests that they're to solve the problem that they are hiring to solve.And entry-level, that is often a degree or a certification or something like that in the space that shows you have at least the baseline fundamentals slash know how to learn things. After a few years, I feel like that starts to shift into okay, you've worked in various places solving similar problems on your resume that the type that we have—because the most valuable thing you can hear when you ask someone, “How would we solve this problem?” Is, “Well, the last time I solved it, here's what we learned.” Great. That's experience. There's no compression algorithm for experience? Yes, there is: Hiring people with experience.Then, at some level, you wind up at the very far side of people who are late-career in many cases where the piece of paper that shows that they know what they're doing is have you tried googling their name and looking at the Wikipedia article that spits out, how they built fundamental parts of a system like that. I think that certifications are one of those things that bias for early-career folks. And of course, partners when there are other business reasons to get it. But as people grow in seniority, I feel like the need for those begins to fall off. Do you agree? Disagree? You're much closer to this industry in that aspect of it than I am.Andrew: The more senior you are, and if you have big names under your resume there, no one's going to care if you have certification, right? When I was looking to switch careers—I used to have a consultancy, and I was just tired of building another failed startup for somebody that was willing to pay me. And I'm like—I was not very nice about it. I was like, “Your startup's not going to work out. You really shouldn't be building this.” And they still give me the money and it would fail, and I'd move on to the next one. It was very frustrating.So, closed up shop on that. And I said, “Okay, I got to reenter the market.” I don't have a computer science degree, I don't have big names on my resume, and Toronto is a very competitive market. And so I was feeling friction because people were not valuing my projects. I had, like, full-stack projects, I would show them.And they said, “No, no. Just do these, like, CompSci algorithms and stuff like that.” And so I went, “Okay, well, I really don't want to be doing that. I don't want to spend all my time learning algorithms just so I can get a job to prove that I already have the knowledge I have.” And so I saw a big opportunity in cloud, and I thought certifications would be the proof to say, “I can do these things.”And when I actually ended up going for the interviews, I didn't even have certifications and I was getting those opportunities because the certifications helped me prove it, but nobody cared about the certifications, even then, and that was, like, 2017. But not to say, like, they didn't help me, but it wasn't the fact that people went, “Oh, you have a certification. We'll get you this job.”Corey: Yeah. When I'm talking to consulting clients, I've never once been asked, “Well, do you have the certifications?” Or, “Are you an AWS partner?” In my case, no, neither of those things. The reason that we know what we're doing is because we've done this before. It's the expertise approach.I question whether that would still be true if we were saying, “Oh, yeah, and we're going to drop a dozen engineers on who are going to build things out of your environment.” “Well, are they certified?” is a logical question to ask when you're bringing in an external service provider? Or is this just a bunch of people you found somewhere on Upwork or whatnot, and you're throwing them at it with no quality control? Like, what is the baseline level experience? That's a fair question. People are putting big levels of trust when they bring people in.Andrew: I mean, I could see that as a factor of some clients caring, just because like, when I used to work in startups, I knew customers where it's like their second startup, and they're flush with a lot of money, and they're deciding who they want to partner with, and they're literally looking at what level of SSL certificate they purchased, right? Like now, obviously, they're all free and they're very easy to get to get; there was one point where you had different tiers—as if you would know—and they would look and they would say—Corey: Extended validation certs attend your browser bar green. Remember those?Andrew: Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was just like that, and they're like, “We should partner with them because they were able to afford that and we know, like…” whatever, whatever, right? So, you know, there is that kind of thought process for people at an executive level. I'm not saying it's widespread, but I've seen it.When you talk to people that are in cloud consultancy, like solutions architects, they always tell me they're driven to go get those professional certifications [unintelligible 00:22:19] their customers matter. I don't know if the customers care or not, but they seem to think so. So, I don't know if it's just more driven by those people because it's an expectation because everyone else has it, or it's like a package of things, like, you know, like the green bar in the certifications, SOC 2 compliance, things like that, that kind of wrap it up and say, “Okay, as a package, this looks really good.” So, more of an expectation, but not necessarily matters, it's just superficial; I'm not sure.Corey: This episode is sponsored by our friends at Oracle HeatWave is a new high-performance accelerator for the Oracle MySQL Database Service. Although I insist on calling it “my squirrel.” While MySQL has long been the worlds most popular open source database, shifting from transacting to analytics required way too much overhead and, ya know, work. With HeatWave you can run your OLTP and OLAP, don't ask me to ever say those acronyms again, workloads directly from your MySQL database and eliminate the time consuming data movement and integration work, while also performing 1100X faster than Amazon Aurora, and 2.5X faster than Amazon Redshift, at a third of the cost. My thanks again to Oracle Cloud for sponsoring this ridiculous nonsense.Corey: You've been building out certifications for multiple cloud providers, so I'm curious to get your take on something that Forrest Brazeal, who's now head of content over at Google Cloud, has been talking about lately, the idea that as an engineer is advised to learn more than one cloud provider; even if you have one as a primary, learning how another one works makes you a better engineer. Now, setting aside entirely the idea that well, yeah, if I worked at Google, I probably be saying something fairly similar.Andrew: Yeah.Corey: Do you think there's validity to the idea that most people should be broad across multiple providers, or do you think specialization on one is the right path?Andrew: Sure. Just to contextualize for our listeners, Google Cloud is highly, highly promoting multi-cloud workloads, and one of their flagship products is—well, they say it's a flagship product—is Anthos. And they put a lot of money—I don't know that was subsidized, but they put a lot of money in it because they really want to push multi-cloud, right? And so when we say Forrest works in Google Cloud, it should be no surprise that he's promoting it.But I don't work for Google, and I can tell you, like, learning multi-cloud is, like, way more valuable than just staying in one vertical. It just opened my eyes. When I went from AWS to Azure, it was just like, “Oh, I'm missing out on so much in the industry.” And it really just made me such a more well-rounded person. And I went over to Google Cloud, and it was just like… because you're learning the same thing in different variations, and then you're also poly-filling for things that you will never touch.Or like, I shouldn't say you never touch, but you would never touch if you just stayed in that vertical when you're learning. So, in the industry, Azure Active Directory is, like, widespread, but if you just stayed in your little AWS box, you're not going to notice it on that learning path, right? And so a lot of times, I tell people, “Go get your CLF-C01 and then go get your AZ-900 or AZ-104.” Again, I don't care if people go and sit the exams. I want them to go learn the content because it is a large eye-opener.A lot of people are against multi-cloud from a learning perspective because say, it's too much to learn all at the same time. But a lot of people I don't think have actually gone across the cloud, right? So, they're sitting from their chair, only staying in one vertical saying, “Well, you can't learn them all at the same time.” And I'm going, “I see a way that you could teach them all at the same time.” And I might be the first person that will do it.Corey: And the principles do convey as well. It's, “Oh, well I know how SNS works on AWS, so I would never be able to understand how Google Pub/Sub works.” Those are functionally identical; I don't know that is actually true. It's just different to interface points and different guarantees, but fine. You at least understand the part that it plays.I've built things out on Google Cloud somewhat recently, and for me, every time I do, it's a refreshing eye-opener to oh, this is what developer experience in the cloud could be. And for a lot of customers, it is. But staying too far within the bounds of one ecosystem does lend itself to a loss of perspective, if you're not careful. I agree with that.Andrew: Yeah. Well, I mean, just the paint more of a picture of differences, like, Google Cloud has a lot about digital transformation. They just updated their—I'm not happy that they changed it, but I'm fine that they did that, but they updated their Google Digital Cloud Leader Exam Guide this month, and it like is one hundred percent all about digital transformation. So, they love talking about digital transformation, and those kind of concepts there. They are really good at defining migration strategies, like, at a high level.Over to Azure, they have their own cloud adoption framework, and it's so detailed, in terms of, like, execution, where you go over to AWS and they have, like, the worst cloud adoption framework. It's just the laziest thing I've ever seen produced in my life compared to out of all the providers in that space. I didn't know about zero-trust model until I start using Azure because Azure has Active Directory, and you can do risk-based policy procedures over there. So, you know, like, if you don't go over to these places, you're not going to get covered other places, so you're just going to be missing information till you get the job and, you know, that job has that information requiring you to know it.Corey: I would say that for someone early career—and I don't know where this falls on the list of career advice ranging from, “That is genius,” to, “Okay, Boomer,” but I would argue that figuring out what companies in your geographic area, or the companies that you have connections with what they're using for a cloud provider, I would bias for learning one enough to get hired there and from there, letting what you learn next be dictated by the environment you find yourself in. Because especially larger companies, there's always something that lives in a different provider. My default worst practice is multi-cloud. And I don't say that because multi-cloud doesn't exist, and I'm not saying it because it's a bad idea, but this idea of one workload—to me—that runs across multiple providers is generally a challenge. What I see a lot more, done intelligently, is, “Okay, we're going to use this provider for some things, this other provider for other things, and this third provider for yet more things.” And every company does that.If not, there's something very strange going on. Even Amazon uses—if not Office 365, at least exchange to run their email systems instead of Amazon WorkMail because—Andrew: Yeah.Corey: Let's be serious. That tells me a lot. But I don't generally find myself in a scenario where I want to build this application that is anything more than Hello World, where I want it to run seamlessly and flawlessly across two different cloud providers. That's an awful lot of work that I struggle to identify significant value for most workloads.Andrew: I don't want to think about securing, like, multiple workloads, and that's I think a lot of friction for a lot of companies are ingress-egress costs, which I'm sure you might have some knowledge on there about the ingress-egress costs across providers.Corey: Oh, a little bit, yeah.Andrew: A little bit, probably.Corey: Oh, throwing data between clouds is always expensive.Andrew: Sure. So, I mean, like, I call multi-cloud using multiple providers, but not in tandem. Cross-cloud is when you want to use something like Anthos or Azure Arc or something like that where you extend your data plane or control pla—whatever the plane is, whatever plane across all the providers. But you know, in practice, I don't think many people are doing cross-cloud; they're doing multi-cloud, like, “I use AWS to run my primary workloads, and then I use Microsoft Office Suite, and so we happen to use Azure Active Directory, or, you know, run particular VM machines, like Windows machines for our accounting.” You know?So, it's a mixed bag, but I do think that using more than one thing is becoming more popular just because you want to use the best in breed no matter where you are. So like, I love BigQuery. BigQuery is amazing. So, like, I ingest a lot of our data from, you know, third-party services right into that. I could be doing that in Redshift, which is expensive; I could be doing that in Azure Synapse, which is also expensive. I mean, there's a serverless thing. I don't really get serverless. So, I think that, you know, people are doing multi-cloud.Corey: Yeah. I would agree. I tend to do things like that myself, and whenever I see it generally makes sense. This is my general guidance. When I talk to individuals who say, “Well, we're running multi-cloud like this.” And my response is, “Great. You're probably right.”Because I'm talking in the general sense, someone building something out on day one where they don't know, like, “Everyone's saying multi-cloud. Should I do that?” No, I don't believe you should. Now, if your company has done that intentionally, rather than by accident, there's almost certainly a reason and context that I do not have. “Well, we have to run our SaaS application in multiple cloud providers because that's where our customers are.” “Yeah, you should probably do that.” But your marketing, your billing systems, your back-end reconciliation stuff generally does not live across all of those providers. It lives in one. That's the sort of thing I'm talking about. I think we're in violent agreement here.Andrew: Oh, sure, yeah. I mean, Kubernetes obviously is becoming very popular because people believe that they'll have a lot more mobility, Whereas when you use all the different managed—and I'm still learning Kubernetes myself from the next certification I have coming out, like, study course—but, you know, like, those managed services have all different kind of kinks that are completely different. And so, you know, it's not going to be a smooth process. And you're still leveraging, like, for key things like your database, you're not going to be running that in Kubernetes Cluster. You're going to be using a managed service.And so, those have their own kind of expectations in terms of configuration. So, I don't know, it's tricky to say what to do, but I think that, you know, if you have a need for it, and you don't have a security concern—like, usually it's security or cost, right, for multi-cloud.Corey: For me, at least, the lock-in has always been twofold that people don't talk about. More—less lock-in than buy-in. One is the security model where IAM is super fraught and challenging and tricky, and trying to map a security model to multiple providers is super hard. Then on top of that, you also have the buy-in story of a bunch of engineers who are very good at one cloud provider, and that skill set is not in less demand now than it was a year ago. So okay, you're going to start over and learn a new cloud provider is often something that a lot of engineers won't want to countenance.If your team is dead set against it, there's going to be some friction there and there's going to be a challenge. I mean, for me at least, to say that someone knows a cloud provider is not the naive approach of, “Oh yeah, they know how it works across the board.” They know how it breaks. For me, one of the most valuable reasons to run something on AWS is I know what a failure mode looks like, I know how it degrades, I know how to find out what's going on when I see that degradation. That to me is a very hard barrier to overcome. Alternately, it's entirely possible that I'm just old.Andrew: Oh, I think we're starting to see some wins all over the place in terms of being able to learn one thing and bring it other places, like OpenTelemetry, which I believe is a cloud-native Kubernetes… CNCF. I can't remember what it stands for. It's like Linux Foundation, but for cloud-native. And so OpenTelemetry is just a standardized way of handling your logs, metrics, and traces, right? And so maybe CloudWatch will be the 1.0 of observability in AWS, and then maybe OpenTelemetry will become more of the standard, right, and so maybe we might see more managed services like Prometheus and Grafa—well, obviously, AWS has a managed Prometheus, but other things like that. So, maybe some of those things will melt away. But yeah, it's hard to say what approach to take.Corey: Yeah, I'm wondering, on some level, whether what the things we're talking about today, how well that's going to map forward. Because the industry is constantly changing. The guidance I would give about should you be in cloud five years ago would have been a nuanced, “Mmm, depends. Maybe for yes, maybe for no. Here's the story.” It's a lot less hedge-y and a lot less edge case-y these days when I answer that question. So, I wonder in five years from now when we look back at this podcast episode, how well this discussion about what the future looks like, and certifications, and multi-cloud, how well that's going to reflect?Andrew: Well, when we look at, like, Kubernetes or Web3, we're just seeing kind of like the standardized boilerplate way of doing a bunch of things, right, all over the place. This distributed way of, like, having this generic API across the board. And how well that will take, I have no idea, but we do see a large split between, like, serverless and cloud-natives. So, it's like, what direction? Or we'll just have both? Probably just have both, right?Corey: [Like that 00:33:08]. I hope so. It's been a wild industry ride, and I'm really curious to see what changes as we wind up continuing to grow. But we'll see. That's the nice thing about this is, worst case, if oh, turns out that we were wrong on this whole cloud thing, and everyone starts exodusing back to data centers, well, okay. That's the nice thing about being a small company. It doesn't take either of us that long to address the reality we see in the industry.Andrew: Well, that or these cloud service providers are just going to get better at offering those services within carrier hotels, or data centers, or on your on-premise under your desk, right? So… I don't know, we'll see. It's hard to say what the future will be, but I do believe that cloud is sticking around in one form or another. And it basically is, like, an essential skill or table stakes for anybody that's in the industry. I mean, of course, not everywhere, but like, mostly, I would say. So.Corey: Andrew, I want to thank you for taking the time to speak with me today. If people want to learn more about your opinions, how you view these things, et cetera. Where can they find you?Andrew: You know, I think the best place to find me right now is Twitter. So, if you go to twitter.com/andrewbrown—all lowercase, no spaces, no underscores, no hyphens—you'll find me there. I'm so surprised I was able to get that handle. It's like the only place where I have my handle.Corey: And we will of course put links to that in the [show notes 00:34:25]. Thanks so much for taking the time to speak with me today. I really appreciate it.Andrew: Well, thanks for having me on the show.Corey: Andrew Brown, co-founder and cloud instructor at ExamPro Training and so much more. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, along with an angry comment telling me that I do not understand certifications at all because you're an accountant, and certifications matter more in that industry.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

Agradece a este podcast tantas horas de entretenimiento y disfruta de episodios exclusivos como éste. ¡Apóyale en iVoox! 𝐏𝐑𝐎𝐗𝐈𝐌𝐀𝐌𝐄𝐍𝐓𝐄 𝐂𝐋𝐎𝐔𝐃 𝐉𝐀𝐙𝐙 𝐄𝐍 𝐄𝐗𝐂𝐋𝐔𝐒𝐈𝐕𝐀 𝐄𝐍 𝐈𝐕𝐎𝐎𝐗 El teclista Brian Culbertson ha sido uno de los primeros grandes artistas de la música Smooth Jazz que ha editado en este 2022. Y lo hace con 'Blue', segundo álbum de su trilogía 'Red, Blue White'. Lo estrenamos y repasamos los recientes trabajos de Dante' Roberson, Andrew Oh, Elena Maque, Alex Malheiros e Ilya Serov. En el bloque central de esta edición hacemos un repaso a la discografía de la trompetista Saskia Laroo.Escucha este episodio completo y accede a todo el contenido exclusivo de Cloud Jazz Smooth Jazz. Descubre antes que nadie los nuevos episodios, y participa en la comunidad exclusiva de oyentes en https://go.ivoox.com/sq/27170

Agradece a este podcast tantas horas de entretenimiento y disfruta de episodios exclusivos como éste. ¡Apóyale en iVoox! En esta edición te presentamos la impresionante voz de la joven vocalista Samara Joy, con su disco de debut y su colaboración con el guitarrista Pasquale Grasso. Repasamos novedades de Bobby Lyle, Groove 55, Will Downing, Andrew OH y Silk Sonic. En el bloque del recuerdo escuchamos discos de la década de los 70 del percusionista Mongo Santamaría.Escucha este episodio completo y accede a todo el contenido exclusivo de Cloud Jazz Smooth Jazz. Descubre antes que nadie los nuevos episodios, y participa en la comunidad exclusiva de oyentes en https://go.ivoox.com/sq/27170

Agradece a este podcast tantas horas de entretenimiento y disfruta de episodios exclusivos como éste. ¡Apóyale en iVoox! Presentación de 'Generations', el segundo disco de The Baylor Project, el dúo formado por Jean y Marcus Baylor. En el repaso a novedades de la música Smooth Jazz escuchamos los nuevo trabajos de Jay Rowe, Andrew OH, Elena Maque, Bobby Lyle y The Mighty Soulmates. En el bloque del recuerdo sonido de la década de los 70 con un breve repaso a la discografía de The Salsoul Orchestra.Escucha este episodio completo y accede a todo el contenido exclusivo de Cloud Jazz Smooth Jazz. Descubre antes que nadie los nuevos episodios, y participa en la comunidad exclusiva de oyentes en https://go.ivoox.com/sq/27170

Agradece a este podcast tantas horas de entretenimiento y disfruta de episodios exclusivos como éste. ¡Apóyale en iVoox! Estreno de 'Essence of Oh', el álbum de versiones recientemente editado por el saxofonista y flautista Andrew OH. También repasamos novedades de Alex Malheiros, Trijntje Oosterhuis, Elena Maque, Kenny G y Dante' Roberson. En el bloque del recuerdo rescatamos música del baterista Lenny White y del teclista Barry Stoffberg.Escucha este episodio completo y accede a todo el contenido exclusivo de Cloud Jazz Smooth Jazz. Descubre antes que nadie los nuevos episodios, y participa en la comunidad exclusiva de oyentes en https://go.ivoox.com/sq/27170

Andrew Warner has been part of the internet startup scene since 1997. Andrew and his brother built a $30 million per year online business, which they later sold. After taking an extended vacation and doing some traveling, Andrew started Mixergy. Mixergy helps ambitious upstarts learn from some of the most successful people in business.Andrew and I talk about his new book, Stop Asking Questions. It's a great read on leading dynamic interviews, and learning anything from anyone. We also talk about longevity and burnout as an entrepreneur. Andrew gives me feedback about my interviewing style, the direction I should take the podcast, and much more.In this episode, you'll learn: Why you need to understand and communicate your mission How to get your guest excited about being interviewed What to do instead of asking questions How to hook your audience and keep them engaged Links & Resources ConvertKit Gregg Spiridellis JibJab Ali Abdaal The Web App Challenge: From Zero to $5,000/month In 6 Months Groove Zendesk Help Scout Jordan Harbinger Noah Kagan Bob Hiler Seth Godin Morning Brew Alex Lieberman Keap (formerly Infusionsoft) Notion Sahil Bloom Ryan Holiday Brent Underwood Ghost Town Living Trust Me, I'm Lying: Confessions of a Media Manipulator Damn Gravity Paul Graham Y Combinator Nathan Barry: Authority Ira Glass NPR This American Life Barbara Walters Richard Nixon interview Oprah interview with Lance Armstrong Matt Mullenweg Chris Pearson Conspiracy: Peter Thiel, Hulk Hogan, Gawker, and the Anatomy of Intrigue Peter Thiel Gawker Nick Denton The Wall Street Journal Rohit Sharma SanDisk Jason Calacanis Dickie Bush Sean McCabe Daily Content Machine Jordan Peterson Tribes Warren Buffet Sam Walton Ted Turner GothamChess LinkedIn Learning (formerly Lynda.com) Inc.com: Selling Your Company When You're Running on Fumes Chess.com Mark Cuban James Altucher Rod Drury Andrew Warner's Links Andrew Warner Stop Asking Questions Mixergy Episode Transcript[00:00:00] Andrew:The top 10 interviews of all time are news-based interviews. We, as podcasters, keep thinking, “How do I get enough in the can, so if I die tomorrow, there's enough interviews to last for a month, so I can be consistent, and the audience loves me.”That's great, but I think we should also be open to what's going on in the world today. Let's go talk to that person today. If there's an artist who's suddenly done something, we should go ask to do an interview with them.[00:00:32] Nathan:In this episode, I talk to my friend, Andrew Warner, who I've known for a long time. He actually played a really crucial role in the ConvertKit story in the early days, and provided some great encouragement along the way to help me continue the company, and get through some tough spots.We actually don't get into that in this episode, but it takes an interesting turn because we just dive right in.Andrew's got a book on interviewing. He runs Mixergy. He's been, running Mixergy for a long time. We talk about longevity and burnout, and a bunch of other things. He dives in and challenges me, and gives me feedback on my interviewing style. Where I should take the Podcast, and a bunch of other stuff. It's more of a casual conversation than the back-and-forth interview of how he grew his business. But I think you'll like it. It's a lot of what I'm going for on the show.So anyway, enjoy the episode.Andrew, welcome to the show.[00:01:25] Andrew:Thanks for having me on.[00:01:26] Nathan:There's all kinds of things we can talk about today, but I want to start with the new book that you got coming out.This is actually slightly intimidating; I am interviewing someone who has a book coming out about how to be good at interviewing. Where do we even go from here? You were saying that you have thoughts?[00:01:47] Andrew:I have feedback for you. I have a thoughts on your program.[00:01:51] Nathan:I'm now even more nervous.[00:01:52] Andrew:I've been listening, and I've been following, and I've been looking for questioning styles. Is there feedback I could give him? I mean, I've wrote a whole book on it. I should have tons of ideas on that.I don't. Here's the thing that stood out for me watching you. There's an ease and a comfort with these guests, but I'm trying to figure out what you're trying to do with the Podcast. What is connecting them? Are you trying to bring me, the listener, in and teach me how to become a better creator who's going to grow an audience and make a career out of it? Or are you trying to learn for yourself what to do?How to become closer to what Ali Abdaal doing, for example, or Sahil Bloom? Are you trying to do what they did, and grow your audience? Or is it a combination of the two?I think the lack of that focus makes me feel a little untethered, and I know that being untethered and going raw, and letting it go anywhere is fine, but I think it would be helpful if you gave me a mission.What's the mission that Nathan Barry's on with the Podcast. Why is he doing these interviews?[00:02:56] Nathan:Oh, that's interesting. Because it's probably different: my mission, versus the audience members' mission.[00:03:05] Andrew:I think you should have a boat together and, but go ahead.[00:03:08] Nathan:I was going to say mine is to meet interesting people. Like that's the thing I found that, podcasts are the pressure from two sides, one as a creator, as an individual online, like I'm not going to set aside the time to be like, you know what, I'm going to meet one interesting person a week and we're just going to have a conversation riff on something like that.Doesn't happen the times that, you know, the years that I didn't do this show, I didn't set aside like deliberate time to do that. And then the other thing is if I were to set aside that time and send out that email, I think a lot of people would be like, I kind of had to have a busy week. I don't know that I've, you know, like yeah, sure.Nathan, whoever you are. I did a Google search. You seem moderately interesting. I'm not sure that I want to get on that.Like a, get to know[00:03:58] Andrew:They wouldn't and it would be awkward. And you're right. The Podcast gives you an excuse. I think you should go higher level with it though. I think you should go deep to the point where you feel vulnerable. I think what you should do is say something like this, isn't it. You have to go into your own into your own mission and say, this is what it is.And just, so let me set the context for why this matters. I think it helps the audience know, but it also helps you get better guests to give better of themselves. I talk in the book about how I was interviewing Greg spirit, Dallas, the guy who created jib, jab, you know, those old viral video, it was a fire video factory that also created apps that allowed you to turn your yourself into like a viral meme that you could then send to your friends.Anyway, he didn't know me. He was incredibly successful. He was, I think, person of the year, a company of the year named by time. He was on the tonight show because he created these videos that had gone viral. And yes. He said yes, because a friend of a friend invited him, but I could see that he was just kind of slouching.He was wearing a baseball cap. It wasn't a good position. And then he said, why are we doing this? And I said, I want to do a story. That's so important. That tells the story of how you built your business. Yes. For my audience. So they see how new businesses are being built online, but let's make it so clear about what you did, that your great grandkids can listen to this.And then they will know how to great grandfather do this and put us in this situation. And that's what I wanted. I wanted for him to create that. And he told me that afterwards, if he had known that that was a mission, he wouldn't have put his hat on. He said that after that, he started thinking about the business in a more in depth way, visualizing his great grandchild.And then later on, he asked me for that recording so that he could have it in his family collection. So the reason I say that is I want us to have a mission. That's that important that yes. You could get somebody to sit in front of the camera because you're telling me you're doing a podcast, frankly.Right. You're with ConvertKit they're going to say yes, but how do you bring the best out of them? And that's it. And so that's why I'm doing this. And so one suggestion for you is to say something like.I'm Nathan, I've been a creator my whole life, but I'm starting from scratch right now with YouTube.I've got 435 people watching YouTube. It's not terrible, but it's clearly not where I want to end up. And so what I've decided to do is instead of saying, I've created the book authority, I wrote it. I'm the one who created software that all these creators are using a ConvertKit. Instead of, instead of allowing myself to have the comfort of all my past successes, I'm going to have the discomfort of saying, I don't know what it's like.And so I'm going to bring on all these people who, because maybe I've got credibility from ConvertKit are going to do interviews with me. And they're going to teach me like Alia doll and others are going to teach me how they became better creators, better business people. I'm going to use it to inform my, my, growth on YouTube.And by the way, You'll all get to follow along. And if you want to follow along and build along with me, this is going to come from an earnest place. Now I've obviously gone. Long-winded cause I'm kind of riffing here, but that's a mission. And now we're watching as you go from four to 500, now we care about your growth.Now there's someone giving you feedback and more importantly, there's someone who then can go back years later and see the breadcrumbs. Even if the whole thing fails and say, you know what?Nathan made it in virtual reality videos. And he's amazing. But look at what he did when YouTube was there. He clearly didn't do it, but he aspired right. I could aspire to, if I don't do it, I'll do it in the next level. That's that's what I'm going for with it. I talk too much sometimes and give people too much, too much feedback. How does that sit with you?[00:07:14] Nathan:I like the idea. I particularly love anytime a creator's going on a journey and inviting people along for it, right. When you're sitting there and giving advice or whatever else, it's just not that compelling to follow it unless there's a destination in mind. So I did that with ConvertKit in the early days of, I said, like I called it the web app challenge said, I'm trying to grow it from zero to 5,000 a month in recurring revenue.Within six months, I'm going to like live blog, the whole thing. people love that another example would be also in the SAS space, but, the company grew, they did a customer support software and they, I think. They were going from 25,000 a month to 500,000 a month was their goal. and they even have like, in their opt-in form, as they blogged and shared all the lessons, it had like a progress bar.You'd see, like MRR was at 40,000,[00:08:08] Andrew:Every time you read a blog post, you see the MRR and the reason that you don't remember what the number was is I believe that they changed it, you know, as they achieve the goal, they, they changed it to show the next goal on their list. And yeah, and you've got to follow along now. Why do I care? The groove, HQ or groove is, is growing a competitor to Zendesk and help scout.But now that I'm following along, I'm kind of invested now that I see how they're writing about their progress. I really do care. And by the way, what is this groove and why is it better than help scout and the others? Yeah. I agree with you. I think that makes a lot of sense. I think in conversations also, it makes a lot of sense.I think a lot of people will come to me and say, Andrew, can I just ask you for some feedback? I'm a student. Can I ask you for support? It's helpful for them to ask, but if they could ground me in the purpose, if you could say to somebody I'm coming to you with these questions, because this is where I'm trying to go, it changes the way that they react.It makes them also feel more on onboard with the mission. I have a sense that there is one, I'm just saying nail it, you know, who does it really good? who does a great job with it is a Jordan harbinger. He starts out his each episode is almost if you're a fan of his, it's almost like enough already. I get that.You're going to do an opt-in in the beginning of the Podcast. I get that. What you're trying to do is show us how to whatever network now and become better people. But it's fine. I'd much rather people say, I know too much about what this mission is. Then I don't.[00:09:26] Nathan:Do you who's afraid anyone else tuning in? What, what is Jordan's mission? What would he say is the mission that[00:09:32] Andrew:It's about, see, that's the other thing I can't actually, even though I've heard it a billion times, he's adjusted it. It's about, self-improvement making me a better person better, man. And so the earnestness of that makes me accept when he brings somebody on who's a little bit too academic who's, Jordan's interested in it or a little bit too practical to the point where it feels like I'm just getting too many tips on how to network and I don't need it, but I've got his sensibility.He's trying to make me a better person. And so I think with interviews, if you, if you give people the, the mission, they'll forgive more, they'll accommodate the largest and it does allow you to have a broader, a broader set of topics.[00:10:14] Nathan:Yeah. I'm thinking about the mission side of it. Like all of that resonates. and I love when an interview is questions are Like are the questions that they specifically want to know? It's not like I went through my list and this seems like a good question to ask instead. It's like, no, no, no, Andrew specifically, I want to know what should I do about, this?And I'll even call that out in a show and be like, look, I don't even care if there's an audience right now. Like this is my list, you know?[00:10:41] Andrew:Yes.[00:10:41] Nathan:But the, like if we dive into the mission, the one that you outlined doesn't quite resonate. And I think the reason. I think about, creators who have already made it in some way.And it starts to lose that earnestness. Like, honestly, I'm not that interested in, in growing a YouTube[00:11:00] Andrew:I don't think that that's I don't think that that's it for you. It's true. That's a little bit too. I don't know. It's it's a little, it's a little too early in the career. There is something there. I don't know what it is and it can't be enough. It can't be enough to say I need to meet interesting people because that's very youth centric and I'm not on a mission to watch you, unless you're really going to go for like the super right.And we're constantly aspiring, inspiring. the other thing it could be as you're running a company, you're trying to understand what's going on. No Kagan did that really well. I actually have the reason that I know this stuff is in order to write the book. I said, I have all my transcripts. I can study all the ways that I've questioned, but I also want to see what other people have done.And so Noah Kagan did this interview with an NPR producer. I had that transcribed to understand what he did and what he learned. One of the things that he did in that, that made that such a compelling interview is. He was a podcaster who wanted to improve his podcasting. And he, I think he even paid the producer to do an interview with him on his podcast so that he could learn from him.Right. And in the process, he's asking serious questions that he's really wondering. He's trying to figure out how to make a show more interesting for himself. Now. Clearly someone like me, who wants to make my Podcast more interesting. I'm like mentally scribbling notes as I'm running, listening to the podcasting.Oh yeah. The rule of three, like what are the three things you're going to show me?Well, yeah, at the end he did summarize it and he did edit. I don't like the edits at all because the edits take away some of the rawness of it and the discomfort which I personally enjoy, but I see now how he's editing it out.And it's, it's interesting to watch that progress.[00:12:32] Nathan:Yeah, I'm thinking through. The different angles that I could take with this. cause I like it and I feel like there's a, a thread that's not quite there. And I felt that on the show. Right. Cause people ask, oh, why are you having this guest on versus that guest? and it is that like, I, I find them interesting.There's also another angle of like probably half the guests maybe are on ConvertKit already. And so I want to highlight that. And then the other half of the guests aren't and I want them on ConvertKit and so that's an, you know, an incredibly easy, I can send you a cold email and be like, Andrew switched to ConvertKit.Right. Or I could be like, Hey, you know, have you on the show, we could talk. and we've gotten great people like in the music space and other areas from just having them on the show and then[00:13:18] Andrew:Can I give you, by the way, I know it's a sidetrack and I give you a great story of someone who did that. Okay. it's not someone that, you know, it's a guy who for years had helped me out. His name is Bob Highler every week he would get on a call with me and give me advice on how to improve the business.And then at one point he said, you know what? I need new clients. I want to start going after people who are, I want to start going after lawyers, helping them with their online ads, because lawyers aren't, aren't doing well enough.He started doing all these marketing campaigns because he's a marketer. And so one of the things he did was he got these cards printed up.He said, they look just like wedding invitations, beautiful. He, he mailed them out to lawyers. He got one, two responses. Like nobody would pay attention to a stranger, even if they were earnest and sending those out. And he goes, you know, and then he gets on a call. He doesn't even know what to say to people.If he just cold calling goes, I'm going to try to do that. And Andrew, I'm going to do an interview show for lawyers. He picked bankruptcy lawyers. He started asking them for interviews. They were all flattered because they also want another good Google hit. Right. And so they said yes to him and he asked them questions.Then I started learning the language. I forget all the different terms that he learned about how, about how they operate. But he said, inevitably at the end, they'll go after it was done. And say, by the way, what are you. And then he'd have a chance to tell them. And because he's built up this rapport and they trust him, they were much more likely to sign them.He signed up his customers, just like that, just like that. It's a, I think it's an, it's an unexplored way of doing it, of, of growing a business, taking an interest in someone, shining a light on them, helping them get that Google hit and helping them tell their story. And then by the way, will you pay attention to the fact that I've got a thing that if you like me, you might like also,[00:14:50] Nathan:So a few years ago, I was in New York and Seth Goden had come out to speak at our conference and he'd ever said, Hey, if you're in New York and want to make the pilgrimage up to Hastings on Hudson, you know, of outside the city, like come up and visit. And so I did that and it's so funny, cause it is like this pilgrimage to you, you like take the train up along the river. You know, I don't know what it is an hour and a half outside of the city. and I was asking Seth advice at his office, about like how to reach more authors. I think that was the question I asked him specifically and he just, he was like, well, what do authors want? And I was like, ah, I, some more books I guess.And he's like, yeah know. And so like we went through a series of questions, but he's basically what he came to was, find a way to get them attention so that they can grow their audience to sell more books. And he was suggesting a podcast is the way to do that. What's interesting is that's the side, like that's the other half of it, right.I want to meet interesting people. I want to, Like get more of those people that I find really interesting on ConvertKit pushed the limits of like, our customer base in, in those areas. And then the third thing is I want to do it in a way that's high leverage in my time. Write of, I want to do it.That creates something, for people watching and listening along so they can follow the journey. But I still don't see,I would say two thirds of that is about me, right?[00:16:18] Andrew:It's not only that, but all these things are byproducts more than they are the clear goal. You're going to get that. No matter what, if you just talk all day about what? No, not talk all day. If you do, what was it? I'm the founder of morning brew does nothing, but like a 15 minute, if that sometimes five minutes.[00:16:37] Nathan:Alex Lieberman.[00:16:38] Andrew:Yeah, just what, what goes on in his life now it's changed over the years or so that he's done it, but it's just, here's what we were thinking about today. Here's how I'm deciding to hire somebody BA done. He's just doing that. That's enough to get attention enough to also broaden his audience enough to bring us in and then so on.So I think if you just did nothing, but get on camera and talk for a bit, you'll get that. But I think a higher leverage thing is to tap into that personal mission and let all the others come through along the way and all the other benefits, meaning that you will get to meet people and change the way you think you will get to get people to switch to convert kit.And so on, by the way, that's such a, like an impressive thing for you to admit, to say, I want to have these guests on because I want to assign them up. I think a lot of people would have those ulterior motives and[00:17:23] Nathan:Oh, no, you got to just talk about, I mean, that's something you and I, for as long as we've known each other have been very, very transparent in both of our separate businesses and our conversations and it's just, everyone wants that. Right? Cause they're like, I think I know why Nathan is doing this, but he wants.And that would be weird, but if we go to the mission side of it, there's mission of like this, I'm going to improve the world side of mission, which definitely exists that can protect you. And I got my little plaque behind me. It says we exist to help creators are living. And so we can take that angle of it, thinking of like the, the goal journey side of things, since we're just riffing on ideas.One way that might be interesting is to make like a top 100 list of the top 100 creators we want on ConvertKit. And the whole podcast is about interviewing those people and reaching them. And, and so it could be like, this is what I'm trying to accomplish. And you're going to learn a whole bunch along the way as a listener, but you, you know, we check in on that.And then another angle that we could take that would be different is the, like we're going together. We're going to help the creator make the best version of their business. And so you make it more of a.We're both peers diving in on your business, riffing on it, you know, how would we improve it? that kind of thing.[00:18:43] Andrew:I think helping creators create a business, seems like something others have done, but not quite your approach, your style, the way that you will go and carve something is this is the thing that's over your head that says create. Is that something you carved in your wood shop? Then I saw on Instagram.Yeah, right. The sensibility of I've got to create it my way. Instead of that's a pain in the ass, I got a business to run who like, right. You're not going to see, for example, infusion soft, go, we need a plaque. Let's go to the wood shop. No, you're not. It's just not their sensibility. Right. Coming from a sensibility of someone who cares about the details, who every button matters in the software, everything behind your shoulder matters to you for yourself, even the stuff I imagine.If you look forward would have a meaning there, it wouldn't be random chaos. Is it random chaos in front of, on the[00:19:32] Nathan:The desk is random chaos, but there's a sign that says the future belongs to creators up there. And[00:19:38] Andrew:Okay. I think I might've even seen that online somewhere. So I think that coming, coming from the business point of view, With a sense of creator's taste, I think is something that would appeal to a lot of people. For whom seeing, for example, my take on business would be completely abhorring. All I care about is where the numbers are and what it's like.Right. Well, even allium doll's take on, it would not be, would not be right, because he's much more about every movement needs to matter. He can't just have a checkbox in notion it Ellis has to fire off five different other things that notion because otherwise you're wasting time. Why type five things when you could type one, right.It's a different sensibility. And I think you've always done really well drawing in that audience. I remember talking to a competitor of yours who started around the same time, also done really well about why you were, you were really growing tremendously faster. and they said he nailed it. He nailed who his audience is.It's the bloggers. It's these early creators who, who didn't have. Who didn't have anyone speaking for them. And you did that. And I think maybe that's an approach to saying, look, we are creators. And the business of creation is, or the business of being a creator is evolving and we want to learn about every part of it.And then it's interesting to hear how somebody growing their audience in an interesting way. How is somebody thinking about writing? I love that you asked Sahil bloom about how long it took him to write. I know he talks about it a bunch, but it's, it's interesting to hear him go with you about how it is like a five hour, seven hour writing job for him, right.To write fricking tweets. He's writing tweets, right? You've got people just firing off the tweet. He's spending five, seven hours on it. And, and he's also not a guy who's just like, right. It would be something if he was still in school playing baseball, and this is his intellectual, whatever. No, he's now running in investments.He's making decisions. He's helping promote his, his portfolio companies and he's spending five hours writing and he's doing it like one a week instead of one an hour. Right. It's all very interesting. And that approach, I think, ties completely well with ConvertKit.[00:21:41] Nathan:Okay. So where does that take us on like the mission or the hook for the show? Cause we're.[00:21:48] Andrew:Okay. Here's what I would do. I would, I would just keep riffing go. My name is Nathan Barry. You probably know me from convert kit. I'm doing this podcast because I like to meet interesting people. And here's the thing I'm trying to do or I'm I I'm doing it because I'm compelled to talk to these people who I admire.And I also want to learn from them about how they create and just riff on it. Like every week, even have every interview have a different one, until you feel like, oh, that's the one that feels just right. But if we just here, I want to have this person on, because I'm trying to learn this thing. I want to have this on because secretly I'm trying to see if I can get him to be at, see if I can get Ryan holiday to actually be on convert kit.Right. Boom. Now, now we're kind of following along as you're figuring it out. And that's also[00:22:29] Nathan:Yeah.[00:22:29] Andrew:The way, is Ryan holiday going to be on here or what?[00:22:31] Nathan:On the show,[00:22:33] Andrew:Yeah.[00:22:34] Nathan:Probably we were just talking the other day. We have a shared investment in a ghost town, So we, we often talk about that,[00:22:40] Andrew:Oh yeah. I've[00:22:42] Nathan:Other thing[00:22:43] Andrew:That ghost town. Oh, that's a whole other thing I've been watching that[00:22:45] Nathan:I need to have speaking of the ghost town, I didn't have Brent Underwood on because that Is an insane story of everything going on with town, but it's just been building this massive audience.[00:22:58] Andrew:Who's doing YouTube videos from there? He[00:23:00] Nathan:Yeah. And he's now got 1.2[00:23:01] Andrew:Yeah,[00:23:02] Nathan:Subscribers on YouTube, like 2 million on[00:23:04] Andrew:I had no idea. I watched him in the early days of the pandemic go into this place by himself. Almost get trapped, driving his car to get there. Right. I go, this is fun content. And usually when you watch someone like that and good morning, America go, and I'm going to jump out of this thing.And I've never jumped before, maybe whatever. I don't know.Yo, the producer's not going to let you die. It's fine. Here you go, dude. Who's just trying to get attention for this thing. Cause he has some investors who he wants to make sure get what they want. Yeah, you could die. What the hell is you doing?What? Like I'm going to, I'm going to go down this hole and see if there's anything over you yet. Dude, you could[00:23:41] Nathan:Yeah. It's, it's pretty wild. I actually, some of the weeks that he don't, he, that he didn't post the videos. I'd like, texted him, be like, Brett, you're still alive because you know, the video was the way that we knew every Friday, like, okay, Good Brent. Still alive, everything. Everything's good. Anyway, I got to have him[00:23:58] Andrew:All right. If you do talk to, if you talk to Ryan holiday, I feel like you totally nailed his writing style, where you, you said in one of your past episodes that he can take a whole historical story, sum it up in two sentences to help clarify the moment that he's writing about. And it's like a toss away thing, right? Just toss it away and then move on and go, dude. That's a whole freaking book. In fact, just turning the whole thing into just two sentences to fit in there would take silo, bloom five hours. You put it in a book with other, like there a bunch of other sentences. So that's good. But here's what I think you should talk to him about.Or here's my, my one suggestion. He has not talked about Marketing since he created, trust me. I'm a lot. Trust me. I'm lying, which was a phenomenal book that then I feel like he distanced himself from when he became more stoic and more intellectual. Fine. He is still a great, great marketer along your style, your tasty.And in fact, he's becoming the people who I can think of that are very, ConvertKit like philosophy in their creation plus promotion. He nails it, right? Art that takes so much pain that you've mentioned, and we've all seen it. He has boxes of index cards to create these sentences that most people would just throw away, not pay attention to, but are super meaningful.And at the same time, he knows how to promote. He knows how to get his ideas out there. He knows how to sell a coin that says you're going to die in Latin, that people put in their pockets that are more than just selling a coin. It's selling this transferable viral, real life thing. Right. So anyway. And is he should be on a ConvertKit too.[00:25:29] Nathan:He is, he is[00:25:30] Andrew:Okay. Good.[00:25:31] Nathan:Half of his list started in Berkeley. The other half are in the process of switching over. So, you know,[00:25:36] Andrew:Okay. Yeah, that's the hard part, dude. I I'm with infusion soft. I can't stand them. If you understand how much I do not like them. I do I ever talk negatively about anyone. No. Bring up politics, Joe Biden, Donald Trump. I got no strong opinion about anything you talked to me about, about infusions. Ah, but the problem is it's so hard to wean yourself off of these things because once you're in a system, that's it[00:25:56] Nathan:Well we'll make it happen. W w we'll figure out a way, but the new book landing page for it, I went on there and inspected element. It's definitely a ConvertKit for them. I was pretty happy about it.[00:26:06] Andrew:Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So truthfully it was, I said, I'm not going to school around here. It would have probably been easier for me to go with, with infusion soft because then we all we'd have to do with tag people who were interested. And then I could, I don't want that. I don't want that nonsense because it comes with overhead.That becomes an obstacle to me, communicating with my audience by, by overhead. I mean, they've got historic legacy. Requirement's that mean I can't do anything right. You I'm on my iPad. I could just go in and send a message out. Or actually I haven't sent a message out. Someone else has sent a message out.Our publisher sent a message then from damn, ah, damn gravity. But I, but if someone says there's a problem, I can go in and see it.[00:26:44] Nathan:Right.[00:26:44] Andrew:And make adjustments. The whole thing just fricking works. Right?[00:26:47] Nathan:So I want to talk about the book more. Let's talk[00:26:49] Andrew:Sure.[00:26:50] Nathan:And now I have you here.[00:26:52] Andrew:Ben needs, us to talk about the book. He's the publisher.[00:26:54] Nathan:We'll get to that, then don't worry. Ben, we've got it covered. so you were giving unsolicited feedback, which by the way is my favorite kind of feedback. Okay.So as you've been listening to the show, what are some other things that maybe you recommended the book, maybe like as you set people up for interview questions, any of that advice that you would give beyond?We started with the men.[00:27:15] Andrew:I'm going to suggest that people who listen to you do pay attention to this. One thing that they should, I I'm interrupting you in a roadway now there's some good interruption that I write about in the book and I can tell you how to do it. Right. And I also have to say that there's some new Yorker that's built in, even though I've left New York a long time ago, that I, I always interrupt when we need to get into the bottom line.Okay. Here's one thing that I think people should pay attention with you. You don't just ask questions. You will, at times interject your own story, your own, take your own experience. And I find that a lot of times people either do it in a heavy handed way. It's like, look at me, I'm equal to you. I deserve to be in this conversation too.And that doesn't just happen on Mike. It happens at dinner parties or it's more like I have to be reverential. So I'm asking questions and it's me asking about them. And one of the things that I learned over the years, Getting to know someone interviewing someone, whether it's like you and I are doing in our podcasts and shows or doing it, in a, in a dinner conversation, it's not asking questions.It's not about saying here's my next thing. Here's my next question. It's overwhelming and draining to do that. You do need to say, well, here's me. You do need to sometimes just guide the person to say, now tell me how you wrote the book. Now tell me how long it takes to, to write a tweet, right? Whatever it is, you need to sometimes direct the person.And so I call the book, stop asking questions because that counter intuitive piece of knowledge is something that took me a fricking interview coach to help me accept that. It's true, but it helps. And you do it really well. And here's why you do it. Well, you interject something personal. Somehow you do it succinctly.You don't get rambling off. Maybe you edit that.No, no, because the videos are there. Yeah. It's, it's not edited. It's just you saying here's, here's my experience with this. And then when you come back and you ask something. It informs the guest about where you are and what they could contribute to that. It lets them also feel like this is a dialogue instead of them being pounded with demands of, in the forms of question.[00:29:15] Nathan:Yeah. Yeah. I think that for anyone listening and thinking about starting a podcast, it's really like, what's the kind of thing that you want to listen to. And I like it where the host is like a character in the, in the Podcast, in the episode where they're contributing content and it's not just like, oh, if I listened to Andrew on these 10 shows, I'm just going to get Andrew.Like, I want it where it's like, no, I'm getting the blend between these two people. And the unique things that come from that intersection rather than, you know, I've heard this[00:29:46] Andrew:Yes.[00:29:47] Nathan:I've heard about it.[00:29:48] Andrew:I think also it took me a long time years of, so I started doing this in 2007, give or take a year and I think. No one needs to talk about, I don't need to talk about myself. They don't care about me. They care about, you know, Paul Graham, who I'm interviewing about how he found a Y Combinator, someone.And I would get tons of emails from people saying, tell us who you are. Tell us a little bit about yourself. And I would argue with them and say, no, but I understand now on the outside, when I listen, I don't know who you are. And it feels very awkward to hear it. It feels very much like, I don't know why, where you're coming from.And so I don't know why I should listen. It's kinda, it's it's counterintuitive.[00:30:29] Nathan:Yeah. I think it just comes with comfort over time. Like, I, I don't know this for sure. If I bet if I listen back to my first podcast episodes, the ones that I did in like 2015. I have a different style because I bet I'm less comfortable or more worried about like, make sure that I shut up quickly so that the guests can talk more because people came here for the guest and then over time you just get more comfortable.[00:30:53] Andrew:So you wrote authority and I remember you, I remember buying it and I remember you bundled it with a bunch of stuff, right. And oh, by the way, it's so cool. I was listening to it on a run and I heard you mention my name in the, in the book I go, this is great and I'm running. but I remember you did interviews there.I don't remember whether the style matches up to today or what, but you did interviews in it. Right.[00:31:15] Nathan:I did.[00:31:16] Andrew:And what you had there that I think is always important to have with all, all interviews is you had a sense of like, well, the sense of mission, I knew what you were going for, because you were trying to say, here is this book that I've written on this topic.I'm want to bring these people in to bring their, their take on it. We were all kind of working together. And I feel like, when I look at my earlier interviews, I listened to them. The Mike sucks so badly. I was too ponderous. Cause I wanted to be like, IRA glass from, from NPR, from this American life.And you could hear the same rhythm, the same cadence, like I'm copying him. Like I'm his little brother trying to learn how to be like a real boy. but I had this real need. I was trying to figure out how these people were building companies that work to understand what holes I had in my understanding to see what was working for them that I didn't know before.And you could see that and it, it helps. It helped me continue. Even when I was nervous with the guest, it helped the guests know where to go. Even when I wasn't doing good job, guiding them and help the audience keep listening in, even when the audio stopped, because there's this thing that Andrew is trying to understand.And you almost feel like you're the sense of vulnerability. If it doesn't scare you away, then it makes you want to root.[00:32:40] Nathan:Yeah. And I personally love that style because I want to follow someone going on a journey and, and trying to accomplish something specific. But let's talk about the not just the book, but asking questions or in this case, stopping it, stop asking questions. What are the things that not even just specific to this job, what are the things that you listened to interview shows?And you're like, okay, here are the three things that I want to change or that I want to coach you on in the same way that I was coached on.[00:33:10] Andrew:Okay. So what I started to do is I go through my own transcripts. I mean, I had years of transcripts to see what worked and what didn't I already done that. So I said, I need to now add to it. And so I went back and looked at historical interviews, like when Barbara Walters interviewed Richard Nixon and got him so frustrated that he didn't want to ever talk to her again.Or when Oprah finally got to sit with Lance Armstrong, how did she do that? I think. You know, you know, let me pause on, on Oprah and Lance Armstrong. She got to interview him after he, he was basically caught cheating and he was about to come out and do it. Great. Get, I think the fact that she interviewed him, there's a lesson there for, for all of us who are interviewing, interviewing the top 10 interviews, I think of all time.And you go back to Wikipedia and look it up. You see art or interview podcast or interview, sorry, our news-based interviews. We as podcasters, keep thinking, how do I get enough in the can so that if I die tomorrow, there's enough interviews to last for a month or whatever, so that I can be consistent in the audience loved me.That's great. But I think we should also be open to what's going on in the world today. Let's go talk to that person today. If there's an artist who suddenly done something, we should go and ask to do an interview with them. If there's a creator, if there's someone. So for me, one of the top interviews that people still it's been years, people still come back and talk to me about is when Matt Mullenweg decided that he was gonna pull out Chris[00:34:35] Nathan:Pearson.[00:34:35] Andrew:Per Pearson.Pearson's, themes from WordPress. And I got to talk to both of them at the same time and I published it and it went all over the internet with all over the WordPress internet. So hundreds of different blog posts about it, eventually all the people in the WordPress world write a lot of blogs, but also it became news.And so we don't do enough of that.[00:34:57] Nathan:I remember that interview because I was in the WordPress community at that time. And I remember you saying like, wait, I'm in Skype and I have both of you in two different things and you pull it together and not to pull Ryan holiday into this too much, but that's where he ended up writing the book.Was it, he realized he was one of the only people who was talking to like both Peter teal and, who's the Gawker guy.Yeah. Anyway, people know, but, but being in the intersection of that, so you're saying find something that's relevant on the news[00:35:33] Andrew:Yeah. Nick Denton was the founder of Gawker. Yes. Find the things that are relevant right now. And when people are hot right now, and they know you and you have credibility in this space, they trust you more than they trust. Say the wall street journal, even right, where they don't know where's this going.I think that's, that's one thing. The other thing is I think we don't have enough of a story within interviews. If we're doing S if we're doing at Mixergy, my podcast and interview where we're telling someone's story, we want them to be somewhere where the audience is at the beginning and then to have done something or had something happen to them that sets them on their own little journey.And then we make this whole interview into this. Into this a hero's journey approach. So I think better when I have an actual company in mind, so, or a person in mind. So last week I was interviewing this guy, Rohit Rowan was a person who was working at SanDisk, had everything going right for him. His boss comes to him and says it, you're now a director, continue your work.But now more responsibilities he's elated. He goes back, home, comes back into the office. Things are good, does work. And then a couple of days later he's told, you know, we mean temporarily, right? And he goes, what do you mean? I thought I got, I got a promotion. No, this is temporary. While our director's out you're director of this department.And then you go back, he says, the very next day, he couldn't go back into the office. He sat in his car, just, he couldn't do it anymore. And so he decided at that point, he'd heard enough about entrepreneurship heard enough ideas. He had to go off on and do it himself. And so we did. And then through the successes and failures, we now have a story about someone who's doing something that we can relate to, that we aspire to be more.[00:37:13] Nathan:So, how do you, you, your researchers, how do you find that moment before you have someone on? Because so many people will be like, yes, let me tell you about my business today. And oh, you want to know about that? How'd, you know, you know, like, as you,[00:37:27] Andrew:Yeah,[00:37:28] Nathan:That hook in that moment? That actually is a catalyst in their own dream.[00:37:33] Andrew:It's tough. It's it takes hours of talking to the guest of, of looking online of hunting for that moment. And it takes a lot of acceptance when it doesn't happen. One of my interview coaches said, Andrew, be careful of not looking for the Batman moment. And I said, what do you mean? He goes, you're always looking for the one moment that changed everything in people's lives.Like when Batman's parents got shot. And from there, he went from being a regular boy to being a superhero. Who's going to cry, fight crime everywhere. His life doesn't really work that way. There aren't these one moments, usually the change, everything. So I try not to. Put too much pressure on any one moment, but there are these little moments that indicate a bigger thing that happened to us.And I look for those and I allow people to tell that without having it be the one and only thing that happened. So if Pharaoh, it, it wasn't that moment. It could've just been, you know what, every day I go into the office and things are boring. And I think I have to stop. What I look for is give me an example of a boring.Now he can tell me about a day, a day, where he's sitting at his desk and all he's doing is looking at his watch, looking at his watch and he has to take his watch, put it in his drawer so that he doesn't get too distracted by looking at his watch all day. Cause he hates it. Now was that the one moment that changed everything?It was one of many moments. It might've happened a year before he quit, but it's an indication. So when we're telling stories, we don't have to shove too much pressure into one moment, but I do think it helps to find that one moment that encapsulates their, why, why did they go on this journey? Why does someone who's in SanDisk decide he's going to be an entrepreneur?Why did someone who was a baseball player decide that he had to go and write a blog post? Why is it? What's the thing that then sends them off on this journey? It helps. And I would even say, if you can get that moment, it just helps to get the thing that they were doing before that we can relate to. So what's the thing that they did before.So anyway, we have two different types of interviews. One is the story-based interview where we tell a story of how someone achieved something great. And so that hero's journey is and approach. The other one is someone just wants to teach them. All you want to do is just pound into them for an hour. Give me another tip another tip another tip of how to do this.Like pound, pound, pound, pound pound. If you want the audience to listen. I think for there, it helps to have what I call the cult hook because I said, how do I, how do cults get people to listen to, to these people who are clearly whack jobs sometimes. And so studying one called I saw that what they did was they'd have a person up on stage who talked about how, you know, I used to really be a Boozer.If you came into my house, you would see that there'd be these empty six packs. I was so proud of leaving the empty six packs everywhere to show myself how much alcohol I can drink. My wife left me. And when she left me, she just told me that I hadn't amounted to anything in my life. And I was going nowhere.And I just said, get I here. Instead of appreciating that this was just like terrible. And I ran out of toilet paper and don't even get me started with what, what I did for that. And so you see someone who's worry worse off than you are on this path of life. And then something has. They discover whoever it is.That's the cult leader. And they say, now I've got this real estate firm I encouraged by, oh, by the way, all of you to come over and take a look at that at this, I couldn't believe it. My whole life. I wanted to buy a Tesla. I now have the Tesla S it's amazing. It's just so great. And I did it all because I changed the way I thought once I came in and I found this one book and the book told me, I mean, anyways, so what we try to do is we say, if you're going to have somebody come on to teach how they became a better blogger, let's not have them start over elevated where everything they do is so great that we can't relate, have them start off either relatable or worse.I couldn't write here's my grammar, mistakes. My teacher told. Right. And now what's the thing that they did. They pick them from where they were to where they are today. it's this real set of realizations. Now I want to go into that.Let's pound into them and see how many of those tips we can get. Let's learn that I want to go from where he was to where he is.[00:41:28] Nathan:Yeah, I liked that a lot. Cause my inclination would be like, okay, we're we're doing the, educational, tactical conversation. I'm going to facilitate it. Let's dive right in and let's get to the actionable stuff right away. So I like what you're saying of like, no, no, no. We need to, even though this is going to be 90% packed, full of actionable material, we need to dive in and set the stage first with the story and making it relatable.And I like it.[00:41:55] Andrew:Yeah,[00:41:55] Nathan:Oh, yeah. I was just, just in my own head for a second. Cause I say, ah, that makes sense a lot, so much so that I've had three different guests or listeners email me and say like, just don't say that makes sense as much would, now that I'm saying it on the show, I'll probably get more emails every time that I say it.Cause that's like my processing, like, oh, oh, that makes sense. As I'm thinking of the next question and all that, so[00:42:22] Andrew:I do something like that too. For me. It's IC,[00:42:25] Nathan:Everyone has to have something.[00:42:26] Andrew:I can't get rid of that and yeah.[00:42:28] Nathan:So what systems have you put in place on the research side so that you're getting this, are you doing pre-interviews forever? Yes. Are you having your[00:42:38] Andrew:Almost every single one, some of the best people in some of the best entrepreneurs on the planet, I'm surprised that they will spend an hour or do a pre-interview. And sometimes I'm too sheepish to say, I need an hour of your time and I need you to do a pre-interview. So instead of saying, I need you to do a pre-interview.I say, here's why people have done it. And I've paid for somebody to help make my guests better storytellers of their own stories. And truthfully people will go through that. Pre-interview even if they don't want to do an interview, they just need to get better at telling their story for their teams, their employees, their everyone.Right. and so I say that, and then they will take me up on the pre-interview and say, yes, I do want to do the pre-interview. and so what I try to do is I try to outline the story. Ahead of time in a set of questions. And then what we do is we scramble them up a little bit based on what we think people will tell us first and what will make them feel a little more comfortable.And then throughout the interview, I'll adjust it. So for example, no, one's going to care about the guest unless they have a challenge. No guest wants to come on and say, I'm going to tell you about what's what I really suck at or where I've really been challenged. If they do, they're going to give you a fake made up thing that they've told a million times to make themselves seem humble.So we don't ask that in the beginning. We don't even ask it in the middle. We save it till the very end. Now they've gotten some time with us. They've gotten some rapport, they trust us. Then we go into tell me about the challenges, what hasn't worked out for you. And we really let them know why tell people the higher purpose you want the audience to relate.You want them to believe you. You want them to see themselves in you, and to learn from you. We need. They tell us, and then I have it in my notes as the last section, but I use it throughout the interview. I sprinkle it. So the goal is to get the pieces that we want and in whatever order makes the most sense and then reshape it for the interview Day.[00:44:33] Nathan:So on the interview itself, you would, you would flip that and you know, okay, this is what I want to start with and, and dive in right[00:44:41] Andrew:Yup. Yup.[00:44:43] Nathan:Lose. They already told you about that. And so now, you[00:44:46] Andrew:Right,[00:44:46] Nathan:In and start with.[00:44:47] Andrew:Right. That helps. Now, if there's something I want to ask someone about that they're not comfortable with. One thing that I do is I, I tip them off. So Jason Calacanis invited me to go do, interviews with, with investors at one of his conferences. It was just a bunch of, investors. And I looked at this one guy, Jonathan tryst, and he looked really great.But he, what am I supposed to do? Ask him about what startups should do to run their businesses. He's never run a startup. His, he hadn't at that time had a successful exit. As far as I knew, like mega successful exit. He's just a really nice guy. You can tell he was going places, but that's it. And the money that he was investing came from his parents.So what is this rich parents giving their kids some money. Now he's going to tell everyone in the VC, in the startup and VC audience, how to live their lives. So I said, I'm either not going to address it, which I think most people are, or I have to find a way to address it where I'm not going to piss them off and have them just clam up on me and then go to Jason and go.This guy just is a terrible interviewer, which is not true. So what I decided to do was tip him off. I said, look, Jonathan, before we do this, before we start talking to the audience, I have to tell you, I saw it, that you don't have much of a track record as an investor. Your money came from your parents and you're not like a tech startup, like people here.If we don't talk about it, people who know it are going to think, oh, this guy, Jonathan, look, who's trying to pass him soft self off. I don't have to force it in here, but if you allow me to, I'd like to bring it up and let's talk about, and it goes, yeah, absolutely. If it's out there, I want to make sure that we address it and sure enough, we talked about it and he had a great answer.He said, no, this came from my parents. It's not my own money. I don't have as much experience as other people, but I took my parents' money. I invested it, fat parents and family and so on. We've had a good track record with it. And now have raised the second Fallon fund from outsiders who saw what I was able to do with the first one.And by the way, I may not have this mega exit as a startup investor, as a startup entrepreneur. But I did have this company that did okay. Not great. Here's what it did Here's what I learned And that's all informing me. And that's where I come from now. You've got someone talking about the, the, the thing that matters without pissing them off so much that they don't say anything else.And you feel like you feel superior as an interviewer. I got them. But in reality, you got nothing[00:46:57] Nathan:Right.[00:46:57] Andrew:Cares.[00:46:58] Nathan:I think that's a really hard line of talking about the things that are difficult and like the actual, maybe things that someone did wrong or lessons that they learned without just like barely dipping into it for a second. And I liked the format of tipping them off in like full transparency.So on this show, I had someone on who I really, really respect his name's Dickie Bush. He's one of the earlier episodes in this series and in it, he, okay. Yeah. So in that interview, one thing that I knew is that his, the first version of his course plagiarized text from another friend, Sean McCabe, actually Shaun's company edits is Podcast and all that.And I've known both of them for, for quite a while. I've known Sean for like, I dunno, six, seven years or something. And I was like, struggling with how to bring that up. And I wanted from the like founder, transparent journey, that sort of thing I wanted it brought up because I, I actually like, I'm happy to talk about like some pretty major things that I've screwed up and what I've learned from it.And I just think it makes a better conversation. And then from the interview side, I don't feel good, like doing an interview and not touching on that, but I didn't tip Dickey off to it. And I, that was one of the things that I've regretted that he gave a great answer. He talked about the lessons that he learned from it.It was really, really good, but I felt bad that I didn't set him up for the most success in like in setting up. And part of that, part of it is because even at the start of the interview, I was still wrestling with now, I'm not going to bring that up that, ah, maybe I should, it wouldn't be an authentic interview if I didn't like wrestling with that, I hadn't figured out my own, like made my own decision until we were in the middle of it.And so I didn't, I didn't set anybody up for success. And so it's an interesting line.[00:48:52] Andrew:It happens. And it seems like I'm now in the point of your transcript, where you, where you ask him, it's a 31 minutes into the interview. I think his response is great. He came in and he took responsibility for it. He says, yeah, that, that, that was a dramatic mistake, or a drastic mistake on my side and caught up in it.He wasn't the most articulate here and he'd repeated words. Like I, I, a couple of times, so I could see that he probably was uncomfortable with it. but I think his answer was great. I think, I believe that we all are broadcasting out, whether we know it or not, our intentions and where we're coming from, as some people are really good at faking it.And so I'm not going to talk about the outliers and some people are so uncomfortable that they're messing up the transmission, but for the most part almost. broadcasting our intentions. If you walk into that, Nathan, with the, I got to get him because he, he got one of my friends and I need him to finally get his comeuppance.He's going to pick up on that. And truthfully, it's such a small thing for a person like you who's, who's already a likable person. You have a lot to offer people, right? As far as like promotion and everything else, it will be forgiven, but it'll be picked up on, it's also something that people could pick up on, which is Nathan really want to know this thing.It's been bothering him for a while. And if you could, just, before you asked the question, say, where am I coming from with this? And know that the audience will mostly pick up on it. And obviously people are gonna like read in whatever they feel like, but trust that the vast majority of us understand, I think it'll work[00:50:21] Nathan:Yeah,[00:50:22] Andrew:You don't have to even tip. You don't have to tip off, but it does help. It, it definitely helps.[00:50:26] Nathan:It's interesting. I was watching an interview with, Jordan Peterson who wrote 12 rules for life. He's like a very controversial figure. And I was just often these controversies pass by, on Twitter and other places. And I realized like, oh, I don't understand them. And rather than jumping on one side or the other, at least try to like dive in a little bit and understand it.So watching this interview, and I can't remember, I think it was some major Canadian TV show or something, and that you would tell the interview was just trying to nail him it every possible chance, like whatever he said, just like dive in. And, so I think you're right, that you see the intention, like in that case, you would see the, the interview, his intention was specifically to try to trip him up in his words.And then in other cases where it's like, This is something that, you know, if you take the other approach, this is something that's been bothering me, or I want to talk about it. Like I genuinely want, you know, to ask or learn from this. It's a very different thing.[00:51:20] Andrew:I think people pick up on it. I remember you, you mentioned Seth Godin. I remember interviewing him when he wrote the book tribes back before people had online communities. And I didn't just say, okay. All our heroes, all the best entrepreneurs just run their businesses. Then don't run a tribe. I brought out books.I said, here's a book about Warren buffet. Here's the book by Sam Walton. The Walmart here's a book by Ted Turner became a multi-billionaire to creating all these, these media empires didn't have communities. They don't have tribes. And now you're telling me that in addition to my job, I also have to go and build out a tribe.It feels like, you know, an extra job. That just seems right for the social first. This just sounds right on social media and you could actually see. He's watching me as I'm saying it, and he's smiling, he's watching it because he's trying to read me, is this like what I get wrapped up? Is this going to be some kind of thing where some guy's going to try to be in the next Gawker media?Or is, is this a safe place? We're all doing that constantly. And then he also saw, okay, this is someone who really wants to understand this. And he's challenging me. I like a challenge. And you could see him smile with like, this is what I'm here for. And so I think when you come at it from a good point of view, people can see it and then you can go there and you can go there and you can go there and it will be shocking to you and them and the audience, how far you go. But when you're coming from that genuine place, they get, they get it.They want it.[00:52:44] Nathan:Yeah, that's good.I want to talk about longevity in like the online world. I think that so many people that I started following in say 2007, 2008, nine, and then I didn't start creating myself until 2011. most of them aren't around anymore. Like a lot of the big blogs, Yeah, just so many that I can think of.They're not around anymore. They're not doing this. You're at a point where like you started messaging in some form in what? 20, sorry, 2004 to somewhere in there and then interviews.[00:53:17] Andrew:Yeah, I keep saying 16. It's like, yeah. 2004 is when I started the interview started 2007 ish somewhere there. Give or take a year. yeah, long. I, I will say that there are parts of my work that I am burned out on right now. This year has been that, but I'm not on the interview. And the reason I'm not is because I do enjoy conversations.I hated them for a long time in my life because I just didn't know how to have them, how to have it make sense. I also didn't give myself permission to take the conversation where I wanted it to go. And it helps now to say, I can talk to anyone about anything. That's an opportunity that, that feels fun because I know how to do it.It's an opportunity to, it feels like, like, you know how everyone's so happy. You can go to YouTube and you could get the answer to anything. Well, I could go to anybody and I could get the answer to anything and talk about how they didn't have a customized to me, YouTube, not customized thing to me, I'm watching Gotham chess on YouTube.He's teaching me how to play chess, but he will not customize to the fact that every time I get into a car con defense, all the pieces like bunched over to my side. But if he and I did an interview, or if I do an interview with an tomorrow's entrepreneur, it's going to be about, here's the thing I'm trying to deal with.How did you get past that? Talk to me about what you're up to there.[00:54:31] Nathan:Yeah, that's definitely energizing. Okay. But what are the things that you're burnt out on? Because I think a lot of people are seeing that burnout. And so I guess first, what are you burned out on? And then second, we can go from there into like, what are you changing and how are you managing.[00:54:46] Andrew:I'm burned out on parts of the business behind, behind Mixergy I'm burned out on. I was aspiring to like unbelievable greatness with the, with the course part of it, with the courses, it didn't get there and I'm tired of trying to make it into this thing. That's going to be super big. I'm tired of that.[00:55:10] Nathan:His greatness there, like linda.com? Like what, what was that?[00:55:15] Andrew:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. Yeah. She was one of my first interviewees and, and so yeah, I saw the model there and I am frustrated that I didn't get to that and I, I don't have a beat myself up type a perso

I burst into the Zoom with Andrew Janjigian—a writer and the baker behind the newsletter Wordloaf—as though he were an old friend, telling him about my drama with the dentist that was happening that day and explaining precisely how much I was already sweating despite the early hour of our interview. There are some people whose energy, even virtually, I just like and how I express this like is, frankly, by extravagantly complaining in the hopes of amusing the other person. This is all to say: Andrew is very smart and cool, and I was excited to talk to him.He has done so many things in his life, and it is all wildly impressive. He’s worked as an organic chemist, got a master’s in biology with a focus on fungi, and then ended up at America’s Test Kitchen, where he was the resident bread expert. That led, eventually, to Wordloaf, where he makes sourdough approachable. We discussed it all. Listen above, or read below.Alicia: Hi, Andrew, how are you?Andrew: I am very well. How are you?Alicia: I'm good. Thank you so much for being here.Andrew: Sure. It's great to be here.Alicia: Can you tell me about where you grew up and what you ate?Andrew: Sure. Ok. So, I grew up in a Boston suburb. And I live in Cambridge now, so basically in Boston. And what I ate was—I come from a big Armenian family, and Armenians are pretty serious about their food and their cooking. A gathering of any two or more Armenians is basically an excuse for a feast. And holidays and parties are sort of studies in excess. So there was a lot of food and a lot of cooking and recipes between my mother and my grandparents and my aunts and uncles. And so, I was exposed to kind of people who love to cook pretty early on. And beyond the Armenian stuff, my mother is a very good cook. And she was pretty adventurous, sort of, as interested in experimentation and research as anyone, and I think that's where I started having the same sort of tendencies. I grew up in the era where it was sort of where cooking shows were all on PBS, and Julia Child, if you didn't know how to cook and all those sorts of things. It was a time when food culture was just starting to become mainstream. And my mother was a part of that. I think that kind of sums it up. Boston was not particularly interesting in terms of food at the time. It's definitely improved since then.Alicia: [Laughs.] How has it improved? What's changed in Boston?Andrew: Well, I think it's mostly that the culture has grown to support the presence of just more interesting restaurants. I mean, I'm sure there were plenty of restaurants in, within cultural enclaves. But when I was growing up, you didn't know about them. There probably were fewer then, simply because there wasn't the support. But I think Boston is kind of a provincial place, or has been. And I think people are finally waking up to the, sort of the importance of foods from other cultures. And so, those restaurants are finally getting the due that they deserve. And so, it's definitely better. I mean, I lived in New York for a long time. And so I still kind of gripe about how much better it could be. [Laughter.]Alicia: Well, you've explained your career trajectory to me before when I've interviewed you. But can you explain how you ended up in food?Andrew: Sure. Yeah. I mean, I started out in it, and then came back to it. But the whole trajectory is really kind of convoluted. And I'm sort of somebody who has always had a lot of interests, and I kind of never do anything halfway. And so that sort of leads me to follow paths far away from one thing and come back to them. So I started out working in restaurants during—a little bit in high school, but in college in New York City as a way to have pocket money to pay the bills. And then in summers, where I was paying my own rent and things like that. I was a waiter working front of the house in a couple places. There was a chef at one particular restaurant who sort of took a liking to me and understood my interest in cooking. And he said, ‘Would you be interested in working in the kitchen?’ And he let me, kind of, with no—without real proof that I could do anything, to work garde manger. It was a small restaurant, and so I immediately just jumped in, do it. And then, never went back to waiting tables after that, because it was really much more my thing. And I did that for a few years and eventually worked my way up. For the longest time, I worked at a place in the West Village called the Universal Grill, which was a great place to work. It was a really tiny little restaurant. It was very unique in every way. It prided itself on, or at least thinking itself, as the gayest restaurant in New York City. Or the gayest restaurant in the world, I forget what their tagline was. But it was very a kind of a hub of a lot of gay cultural activity. And it was just a fun place to work, especially since the—while the food, it was important that the food be of a certain caliber, the owners didn't really want to have anything to do with that. So they left the few of us in the kitchen to our own devices to kind of come up with recipes and be creative. And it was small enough that if I was cooking, I was the only person—eventually I worked my way up to sous chef. And if I was there, I was in charge of the menu for the night. And so, it gave me a lot of creativity. That was kind of where I forged my skills. And then, I stayed in restaurants for a little bit longer after that. I moved back to Boston. But I kind of found sort of other interests pushing in against that one. And I eventually decided I want to go back to school. I had studied literature and film in college, and—but was, sort of caught the science bug. And so, I decided that I was going to be—I wanted to be a doctor. It seems kind of crazy now, I thought that. So I go back to school, do pre-med courses. I hadn’t particularly done any of those kinds of classes in college. And I started out in chemistry and found that I had this kind of acuity for it. I found it really interesting. And while I was doing some of these courses, I kind of talked my way into an internship at a pharmaceutical company here in Cambridge. And that internship ended up getting renewed several times. And eventually, it just became a full-time job. And I sort of dropped the pre-med idea in favor of just kind of becoming an organic chemist. Organic chemistry is basically cooking, at least in the practical aspects of it. It's just like cooking. You have a recipe, put a bunch of stuff in a container, you heat it up, and it transforms into something else. And I'd always been good at recipes and good cooking. So it's sort of like it was an easy shift for me.And I did that for 12 years, ’cause it was—working for a corporation, it paid well. And I enjoyed it most of the time. And then while I was there, I caught another bug and this was in the study of mycology and mushrooms. And one of the benefits of working there was that they paid for higher education. And so I was able to get a master's degree—or most of it, I didn't finish it until after I left there. But in biology, it was a study of fungi and in, called mushroom cultivation and foraging and things like that. That's where I was when, just by coincidence. I met somebody, a friend of a partner of my brother-in-law who worked at America's Test Kitchen and shared my crazy resume, my story of how I—what I'd done all these years. And they go, ‘You'd be the perfect candidate for a job at America's Test Kitchen.’ They love people with all those kinds of backgrounds, and also the sort of skill set was perfect for it. So I applied and I took a massive pay cut. And the rest is history. And I was there for about the same, about 11 years, up until last year.Alicia: When did bread become the focus?Andrew: So it's funny because I was thinking about this in—I worked in two bakeries in high school, and it didn't register as a thing that I was at all interested in. And during college, I went—I spent a semester in Paris. I'm sure I ate lots of good bread. But somehow, the idea that I was surrounded by all these amazing bakeries just never, never even occurred to me to think about it. While I was there, I was kind of more interested in spending time in movie theaters and art museums. And so, I didn't come to bread until very late in the game. And the thing that kind of sparked that was probably—this is probably true for many people—was the no-knead bread. I think I made it right after the article came out in ’09. It both kind of sparked the idea that good bread can be had at home, and that actually, maybe, at home, homemade bread is better than you can get, at least from bakeries at the time. Or just the fact that you're pulling it hot from the oven yourself means you're getting it at the peak of its freshness. I quickly was like, ‘Oh, I think I need to dig into this more deeply.’ The fundamentals, the foundation had been there all along. Because the thing that I, that brought me to cooking in the first place when I was a kid, before I started working in restaurants, was pizza; I was obsessed with pizza. I think the first cookbook and kitchen tool I ever personally owned was a pizza pan and a book that my mother gave me as a birthday present. And so, that had been something that all throughout my life since that moment, I've been tinkering with my own recipes. And Cook's Illustrated started in ’93. So that was as I was—during college. I think I subscribed to it from the beginning at that point. And so, I understood that iterative testing process for recipe development. And I did a lot of that with my pizza recipe over the years. And so, I sort of laid the groundwork for where I ended up. After no-knead bread, I started digging into recipes and taking classes. And that was really where I kind of fell hard for it. But yeah, that—Sorry, go on.Alicia: No, no.But yeah, how did you come to your kind of current approach to it? Andrew: Well, so there's a lot of aspects to it. I think that no-knead bread itself is something I came to realize is just, I don't know. It's weird to find something so basic that you didn't realize you could be in love with when you ate it all the time. And maybe it's just because I never had good bread, but I'm sure I did. But there's so many things about it that I love about it it's hard to even narrow it down. I think one of them is simply that bread bakers are kind of, they're really great people. The people who work in the industry and the teachers I've had, they're just really—they're really generous and they're fun to be around. And so when I was a student of it, at the beginning of my time, I just was like, ‘Oh, these are my people’ in a way. And their passion for it kind of quickly became my own. But in terms of the bread itself, and what—one of the many things I love about it, one of them is just like that it's, unlike any other kind of cooking, it's a relationship. It's a dynamic thing that is never complete. You never perfect a technique. Sometimes it works amazingly, and sometimes it doesn't. And you have to kind of constantly bring yourself back to the-I mean, it's a living organism. And if you're not paying close attention to it, if you're not kind of adjusting to it, then it kind of resists being what you want it to be. And so, you need to kind of bring yourself down to its level—up to its level, I should say.I do a lot of overnight recipes, in the fridge overnight or on the counter. Every time I come downstairs from my bedroom and see what's happening in the kitchen, it's a little mini Christmas morning. I'm so excited to see what I, what it's managed to do for me in the interim. So there's just a lot of little joys in it. Yeah.Alicia: And you left your longtime post at America's Test Kitchen to focus on your newsletter as well as freelance. And you recently wrote about competing recipe style guides, which I thought was really interesting, because—for myriad reasons. One, that I develop recipes. Two, that I was a copy editor.How has that transition been for you into working for so many different places plus yourself? Because I know that it is very difficult. [Laughs.]Andrew: Yeah, that's been one of the many challenges of doing this, all solo. As I said, I came to America’s Test Kitchen as a cook and a science person, and not as a journalist. I had no training in journalism. And so, the style guide wasn't even something—I mean, I'm sure I had MLA or whatever in college, but I didn't know that it was a thing. And so when I learned how America's Test Kitchen did their thing, I didn't think, ‘Oh, that's their style guide.’ I just thought that's how everybody does it. And I absorbed that over time. But then after leaving, I realized, ‘Oh, this isn't how everybody is doing it. It’s just one idiosyncratic approach to it. And other places do it differently.’ And that makes sense. Every place has a different kind of needs and a different audience to cater to. But it's maddening to have to—it’s like having to speak a different language every time you do, pick up the phone to speak to somebody else. And it's really hard to adjust. But it is what it is. I wish we could have like an International Congress of Recipe’s style guides and just kind of come up with one thing. Yeah. Alicia: No, it's funny, because I wrote about salt today and how I'm going to try and not use Diamond Crystal anymore. It was so funny.Andrew: The Cargill thing?Alicia: The Cargill thing [laughs], where I found out that it's owned by Cargill since 1997. I had like literally no idea. That's never the point of anything anyone's talking about when they're talking about salt and which one to use. It's always about what's accessible and the volume, and  it's never—I also want this standard recipe conference, because I want the salt issue to be resolved. Because The L.A. Times is like, ‘Ok, we're only going to use Diamond Crystal.’ And then The Washington Post is like, ‘We're only going to use fine sea salt.’ But how many salts do you expect a regular person to have in their kitchen? I don't know, and I think it needs to be resolved. I'm just really horrified that people have always been like, ‘Diamond Crystal is the best’ and no one's ever said that they're owned by Cargill.Andrew: Yeah, that was news to me until I think you probably retweeted somebody a couple of days ago, and it never occurred to me. I mean, somebody down to make a bespoke salt that had the exact same weight to volume ratio and is as, just as good in terms of the way it sprinkles or whatever? And then we can stop using it. I was a kosher salt, Diamond kosher salt person until maybe that also sort of swayed me in the other direction. But I do think that it's annoying as hell that kosher salt comes in these two different volume to weight ratios. And I think I'm now in the sea salt’s better camp because sea salt is sea salt is sea salt.  Alicia: Exactly. Yeah, no, apparently there's a Norwegian kosher salt that is the same as Diamond Crystal. You're not getting a 10-pound, 5-pound box of it. So that's the issue here, is how much—yeah, how much you're getting, how much bang for your buck, which I guess is why Diamond Crystal really owned the game for so long. [Laughs.] And continues to! I don't think I'm going to change the way chefs act. But at least I can let people, more people know that Cargill owns this and to make their own choices now. Andrew: Yeah.Well, the other thing is that's kind of a very niche question, but like the bigger question’s metric versus imperial and weight to volume and baking recipes and that stuff is just maddening. So you asked about my own style and what that was like. I feel like a style guide should always be logical and clear. It should also teach people something. To give people options is to not encourage them to pick one over the other. And so I decided I'm getting rid of volume measurements, because I think it forces people to do something that eventually they'll come to see is easier.Alicia: Right. No, and I agree. I hate volume recipes. I mean, the only thing for me is that, to keep batteries in my scale. [Laughs.] It's remembering whether it's double A or triple A when I go to the store. That's my struggle. But I wanted to ask how you're maintaining creativity and balance between the work you're doing for other people and for your newsletter, because people ask me all the time. And for me, I think it's kind of obvious, most of the time, what's for the newsletter and what isn't. Speaking, again, of the salt piece, I know how I could expand the salt piece and make it really a lot better and 3000 words and a lot more effecting, but I'm not going to do that for my weekly blog. But, yeah, so basically, how do you balance those things that you're doing?Andrew: Well, I think I'm sort of in a similar camp with that. It took me a while to figure out that that was what it was, but I use it as a sort of a scratch pad for whatever's on my mind. And I don't necessarily feel like things need to be kind of resolved when I write about them there. And I think maybe from the outside—I hope this isn't the case—but maybe from the outside, it sort of seems very disjointed. One week, I'll be giving a recipe and the next week, I'll be talking about style guides. And so I hope that when you see the overall arc of things, you can see that I keep circling back to certain themes. But I find it very useful as a kind of idea-generating place. And I'm kind of grateful that people are willing to kind of follow along there. People pay to subscribe, and that seems like an amazing thing that people want to kind of hear me just think out loud.Alicia: Right.Yeah. And I like that aspect of newsletters. I think a lot of people don't really get that. Maybe because they don't do it; they don't understand the value of having to be consistently creative. And that it's not necessarily an ends in itself, but it's just a way of thinking. It's just a practice that you can have. That people will go along with it is really interesting. And have you found a real connection with your audience there?Andrew: For sure. I've found that the fact of their presence in—I mean, I guess one nice thing about having a paid option is that if people are paying, they don't have to comment to show their appreciation for what you're doing.I feel like the one thing that I've wanted to—Well, it's not the only thing, but one of the things I want to develop more of a sense of community. I feel it's probably on me to figure out a way to foster that more. Because there is some of it, but not as much as there perhaps could be, where people are not only commenting and interacting with me but also communicating with one another more. And maybe that's the question of starting open threads or encouraging questions where people get to weigh in. The hardest part, or a hard part, of doing the newsletter and being a full-time freelancer is just finding the time to implement all these different ideas I have for making it better. It's very slow.Alicia: It's really slow. It's very hard. I want to open up to new, have other people contribute. But I have to make sure I'm fully available to do the best editing work and everything like that. I don't know. It's funny how Substack is, say, it’s all like, ‘Independent newsletters are the future, blah, blah, blah.’ It is, in a way, but at the same time, it's not sustainable at all to do without support. It's impossible to grow into the way that you might have a vision for without the support of a team. Andrew: Yeah, definitely. I can see so many places where it could be more than it is, and maybe it will be someday. But part of it's just a question of time. If I didn't have the freelance work, then I might be able to double the amount of stuff I do there. The problem is that I actually enjoy most of the, or nearly all of the freelance work I'm doing are things I'm interested in. So I'm happy to have it. Maybe there just needs to be more days in the week, although working more is not a good idea.Alicia: No, no. Yeah, it's a hard balance. For me, the struggle right now is finishing my book, and then—and also doing a newsletter.Andrew: Yeah, that I couldn't imagine. Although I have a book project that I need to get going on. So, I don’t want to talk about it much. But the idea of trying to juggle that seems impossible.Alicia: It's hard. It's really hard. The newsletter, in a great way, it became my—the bulk of my income. But I didn't know that that was going to happen. Thank God it happened. And then I have to keep it up to write the book, because the advance was so shitty. [Laughs.] And I sold the book before my—literally weeks before my newsletter kind of popped off, I guess, last year? I don't know. So, it's constantly maintaining this balance in this kind of work where you're weighing the pros and cons of literally every small decision. But I remember when I quoted you about flour in a past newsletter, and you talked about ingredient sourcing and flour sourcing, it caused a little bit of controversy in the artisanal flower community. I talked to Roxana Jullapat about this recently while talking about Mother Grains-Andrew: Which I loved.Alicia: Yeah, yeah.And we're all constantly trying to find this balance—or we're all, I think, people who try to care both about accessibility and taste and ecology, and trying to juggle all of these ideas at once. You have to think about what's good for your local ecosystem, and what's also realistic. And so, what are your thoughts on flour and accessibility right now?Andrew: So, yeah, I got kind of yelled at by somebody, for use—[laughs] for using the term ‘fancy flour’ to refer to sort of fresh milled local, regional, flours, which I love and use all the time and, I think are important to—it's an important aspect to the industry to promote.But it's only a piece of the story. There's so many issues with making that kind of thing accessible to everyone. It's very expensive. It's not accessible in terms of, most supermarkets don't carry anything like that. And mail order is definitely possible, but not only does that add to the cost but it adds to the carbon footprint of the thing. I try in the newsletter and elsewhere to encourage people to seek out those kinds of things if they're in their local economy, and to—I think a great deal of my audiences likely can't afford to spend as much as possible on flour, and maybe-So I think the person that wasn't happy with that term was coming from that perspective is—and like, ‘You need to kind of almost force people who can afford to use better products and more sustainable, whatever.’ And so, I think that's a good thing. But I think it's important not to forget that there are people who can't afford that, and some of those people might not be part of my audience, but they—maybe I'm not attracting them, because if I'm kind of limiting myself to boutique ingredients. I kind of want to come at it from both sides. There's another aspect which is kind of related to that, which is that you—the thing about flours, flours that are kind of boutiques, is that each one needs to be—the recipe needs to be developed specifically for that flour. Whereas if you called for a commodity, or sort of a well-known flour, they're consistent across the—people can get King Arthur flour from one side of the country to the other, and it's going to behave the same way no matter where you get it. And so then, all of a sudden, the recipe becomes accessible to more people. And so, it's a challenge, because if you want to encourage those kinds of things, you need to teach people how to use them and how to how to adapt to them, in a way, like to say, ‘I don't know what your flour is going to be like, but here's what to look for and how to adjust if that's the case.’ But still, I mean, it's really important, because I think maybe flour’s one—I think Roxana said this, or maybe she was talking about sugar, but I think they're similar in that it's one of those unexamined monoliths in our food culture that we don't—we just think flour is just the thing you get. You buy some flour. Whatever, it doesn't matter. As opposed to thinking about how huge the industry is and how difficult it would be to dismantle that sort of thing and replace it with something that is more sustainable and equitable. I think we have to start somewhere. And talking about flous that are made from grains that are grown locally—I'm lucky to live in New England, which before it was the heartland, was the breadbasket of America. And so, good grain can be grown here, and more and more is being grown. And so, I have access to really great local flour, but not everyone does. Although I think there's probably opportunities to grow flours that can be adapted for whateverenvironment you live in. I mean, there's some cool flours that grow in the desert, wheats that grow in the desert that are being built into flour. And actually, we might need more of them, because I haven't really delved too deep into it. But they're saying, this year has been really bad for droughts in the Midwest and Canada. I don't know if it's the end, or if it's just a blip and the kinds of things that we're gonna see more and more of over time. So it's a little scary to think, because if we can't grow—I mean, me being able to have, make my bread is important to me. But beyond that, access to something like flour going away is hard to fathom how damaging that would be to our economies and our lives.Alicia: Yeah.No, I think about that a lot, especially because living in Puerto Rico, I can get King Arthur, but I have to go to the special store and I have to pay way more than I would have paid in New York for it. And then it's funny, because I think if I tried to learn how to cook here, every recipe would be a nightmare because of the humidity and the—and so, because I already know how to cook, I'm—I know how to compensate for things. But I just want to see more recipes, I think, written—and I guess I should start doing this—for the gluten-free flours that are more locally produced like the cassava flour and the breadfruit flour and everything, and plantain flour even. Because, as we keep saying here, it's like, ‘Well, soon everyone will know what this is to live in the tropics.’ New York is subtropical now. And so yeah, it's just really interesting to think about and to kind of try to reframe—yeah, I use the local grain thing to question or whatever to think about, yeah, how we might make things in the future that are recognizable to us. Andrew: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's just hard to imagine a world, or it's hard to imagine living in a world where something as fundamental as wheat or, were to go away. It's scary. And I love alternative flours, but you can't get a baguette out of cassava flour.Alicia: Yeah, exactly. Thinking about life without a baguette is kind of depressing. [Laughs.] Yeah. That's what I'm gonna have for breakfast. I have some. Anyway. [Laughs.] Let me enjoy it while I have it. I’m not thinking about that. But through your newsletter, you're also kind of—you're teaching classes on Zoom. And we talked about the different styles of writing recipes. But just to write recipes down in a methodical manner is so difficult for me personally. What is your process for doing that? What tools have maybe helped you do that? How have you found your teaching voice, basically?Andrew: So it's really interesting, because I'm deeply introverted. And so teaching is the farthest—especially in person—but in front of people, Zoom, or in a room full of them. But I actually have come to love it. And I never would have guessed that would be the case. I started teaching baking and cooking because I saw it as an opportunity to get to kind of hang out in spaces that I was just a consumer of where I wanted to—I wanted to be able to go to places like King Arthur and, on their dime instead of mine. And so I was like, ‘Ok, I'm just gonna see if they’ll let me teach something.’ But I quickly realized that actually, I really liked doing it. And so, I do it for its own sake now. It's challenging, but also it's a great tool for figuring out and kind of codifying what I know and what I don't know. If I have to develop it, I often will propose classes for things that I haven't quite finished figuring out but knowing that it'd be an opportunity to get it done. And so, there's something fun about jumping without a net into something like that. And so, in terms of a newsletter and the recipes, I think I've figured out how to teach, or learning how to teach. And in classes, I think I have converted some of that into how to write about it. But I'm still developing that a little bit more early on in the process. I feel I've been cycling through saying things and figuring out the best way to say something. I often talk about the same kinds of the same topics, how to work with a sourdough starter, or how to do techniques like folding and what not. And I'm never quite sure how to pass that along to somebody who, for whom it—they're naive to those concepts. But I've spent a lot of time thinking about that. And I feel like the thing that I think about most in sort of an abstract way is, how do you teach people to think like a baker does? It's not straightforward. I don't know if it's true for every skill, or, but I spend a lot of time thinking about, like, ‘What is it gonna flip the switch in somebody's head when they're doing a technique?’ It's not just straightforward, do this and get that result. It's more like, ‘Think like this, and you'll be able to figure out how to get that result.’ It's one step removed from the process. But I'm still trying to, still trying to get my head around that.Alicia: Well, for you, is cooking a political act?Andrew: Yes, it is. I feel like it's important to keep that in your mind when you're doing it. I think it's such an easy thing to forget that food and cooking have—it's such a fundamental thing. Is breathing a political act? It's almost the same, but—air is important, too. Food is so fundamental that it's just easy to forget that it has so much, so many implications in terms of—the flipside to eating is hunger, and maybe you're satisfying your own hunger but other people don't even have the option to satisfy it. Or equity in terms of who's making our food or who's growing, picking our fruits, and then all the impacts on climate and resources. And so, I feel I try to deliberately keep that in mind. I mean, it's not always there, but I just feel it's important not, never to forget that. It's part of a system that is not great and needs a lot of work. And I think that, especially if you're in the world of food and cooking, you can have an impact, a positive impact in that if you keep it in mind. Alicia: Right. Thank you so much for being here.Andrew: Oh, it was my pleasure. I'm so happy to be here. This is a public episode. Get access to private episodes at www.aliciakennedy.news/subscribe This is a public episode. Get access to private episodes at www.aliciakennedy.news/subscribe

01:27 - Andrew's Superpower: Stern Empathy 03:30 - Setting Work Boundaries * Matrix Organizations * 18F (https://18f.gsa.gov/) * Acknowledging Difficult Situations (i.e. Burnout) * Health Checks * Project Success * Time Tracking * Heart Connection / Motivation * Work Distribution * Greater Than Code Episode 162: Glue Work with Denise Yu (https://www.greaterthancode.com/glue-work) 18:54 - Providing Support During a Pandemic * Stretching/Growth Work * Comfortable/Safety Work * Social Connection 23:37 - Keeping People Happy / Avoiding Team Burnout * Project Aristotle by Google (https://rework.withgoogle.com/print/guides/5721312655835136/) * Collecting Honest Data * Psychological Safety & Inclusion * Earned Dogmatism * “The Waffle House Solution” 36:26 - Developing Team Culture * “Gravity People” * Honing Communication Skills * Staying Ahead of Big Problems * The ACE Model of Leadership * Appreciation * Coaching * Evaluation * Learning Skills * Managers: Coaching How To Coach * Communities of Practice * Hiring External Consultants * Online Courses, Books, Podcasts 43:08 - Knowing When to Jump Ship and Understanding Your Skills * TKI Assessment (https://kilmanndiagnostics.com/assessments/thomas-kilmann-instrument-one-assessment-person/) * Competing * Collaborating * Compromising * Avoiding * Accommodating 46:51 - Developing & Enforcing Boundaries * Summarization * Normalization * Asking For Support 59:05 - Making Mistakes * Demonstrating Vulnerability * Acknowledge, Internalize, and Learn * Rebuilding Trust * Acceptance: Start Over – There's Other Opportunities * Dubugging Your Brain by Casey Watts (https://www.debuggingyourbrain.com/) Reflections: Arty: The intersection between identifying and acknowledging creates the precedent for the norm. Jacob: Evolving culture to enable vulnerability more. Casey: Andrew's river metaphor and Arty's cardboard cutout metaphor. Andrew: Talking about and building psychological safety is foundational. Going first as leadership or being first to follow. How to start a movement | Derek Sivers (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V74AxCqOTvg&feature=youtu.be) (being the first follower TED Talk) This episode was brought to you by @therubyrep (https://twitter.com/therubyrep) of DevReps, LLC (http://www.devreps.com/). To pledge your support and to join our awesome Slack community, visit patreon.com/greaterthancode (https://www.patreon.com/greaterthancode) To make a one-time donation so that we can continue to bring you more content and transcripts like this, please do so at paypal.me/devreps (https://www.paypal.me/devreps). You will also get an invitation to our Slack community this way as well. Transcript: ARTY: Hi, everyone. Welcome to Episode 248 of Greater Than Code. I'm Arty Starr and I'm here with my co-host, Jacob Stoebel. JACOB: Hello! Nice to be here, and I'm here with my other co-host, Casey Watts. CASEY: Hi, I'm Casey, and we're all here together with our guest today, Andrew Dunkman. Andrew, he/him, is an engineering leader and software developer with 17 years of experience. He's worked on and launched tools for contact relationship management, predictive sales, radiology and healthcare, learning and management, business-to-business timekeeping, and most recently in government at 18F, a part of the US General Services Administration that's helping the federal government adopt user-centered technology approaches. He loves those. He also likes building community in his free time. He helps moderate the DC Tech Slack, a 10,000-person community of tech workers in the DC area and he helps to run DC Code and Coffee, an informal hacking and community-building event every other weekend. Even though his cat, Toulouse, is glaring at him for talking too loud, he is excited to be here with us today. Hi, Andrew! ANDREW: Hey, y'all! So nice to be here. I'm honored to be a guest. CASEY: Let's start with our standard question to kick stuff off here. Andrew, what's your superpower and how did you acquire it? ANDREW: Thanks for asking. Yeah, this is whenever I answer the question of what my superpower is, it feels like bragging so I did what I normally do when I'm uncomfortable asking a question and I ask other people that question. I asked a few friends and they highlighted both, my ability to empathize with people and also, my sternness in that empathy. I think sometimes when you get caught up in empathizing with people, you can allow their emotions and their feelings to overwhelm you, or become a part of you in a way that you're not necessarily hoping for. So I like to draw a firm boundary there and then allow other people to see that boundary, I suppose. [laughs] I don't know, it's hard for me to say that that's a superpower, but I'm just going to lean into what other people told me. ARTY: That's a pretty good superpower. I like it. How did you acquire it? ANDREW: I credit my mom a lot actually. My mother is a dual major in psychology and English and as growing up, she had the worst way of punishing me, which is anytime I'd do something wrong, she would say, “Can you describe to me what you did and tell me how it made the other person feel?” which is the absolute worst thing to do to a child to make them explain how they've hurt you. [laughs] So I credit that a lot for developing those skills. CASEY: That's so funny. You think it's the worst thing you can do? Could you imagine yourself doing it ever if you're around children like that? ANDREW: Oh, totally. [laughs] Absolutely, yes. I now do it to my friend's children. I have no children myself, but I do to my friend's children and it's appropriately uncomfortable. CASEY: I like that. Yeah. It can be the worst and it can be helpful and productive. I believe it. ANDREW: Yes. As one of my coworkers like to say, “Two things can be true.” JACOB: That boundary, I've been thinking about something along the lines of that recently, particularly in work settings where you can get really burnt out in everything is high stakes emotionally at work. I think that's a really good boundary to have. ANDREW: Absolutely and it's also super hard to know. [chuckles] Both know where that boundary is and what to do when you are coming up to it. I think some people and myself occasionally notice you've crossed that boundary in retrospect, but not necessarily in the moment and it's hard to start off just know your tells when you're getting close to that line and when to pull the e-brake and take a walk, or go out and find some way to disengage, or reengage in yourself as a human and your human needs. CASEY: I'd love to hear an example of a time when you pulled the e-brake recently, Andrew. It's so vivid you must have a lot of stuff under that sentence. ANDREW: So my current organization, 18F, is one that's a matrixed so we've got our chapters is what we call them which is our disciplines. Those are engineering and design, product acquisitions, they're groups of people that do the same kind of work, and then our other angle of the matrix is our projects. Those are business verticals like the kinds of people that we're helping and the organizations that we're assisting around public benefits, or around national security, or around natural resources. So the result of a matrix organization is that you have two aspects to who's managing you—you have the manager of your work and you have the manager of your discipline—and the positive thing about that is that you can use both angles of the organization to support you in different ways. Sometimes in your work, you need someone to speak up for you as a person, or as your skills development angle and sometimes you need someone to speak up for you in terms of the project work that you're doing, advocating for success in the specifics of your project, regardless of the way you're contributing to that project. The result, as you zoom out into upper layers of management, is that you have a conflict designed into the system and that conflict, when things are working well, benefits the health of the organization, both the health of people and the health of projects are advocated for and supported. But when things get out of balance, which happens all the time, in every organization I've ever been in you've got pendulum swing back and forth between different balances and when things out of balance, then suddenly you find yourself overextended, or advocating to an empty room. A recent example was a conversation around advocating for the benefits of – I'm on the chapter side of the house so I support people within engineering and I had to pull an e-brake in a conversation where I was advocating for the health of people, but that I didn't have the right ears in the room to make a positive change. I found myself getting ahead of myself. One of the tells that I have is that I often feel tension in my jaw, which is usually a sign that I'm stressing too much about something. So I decided to take off a few hours and went to a gym [chuckles] and did a work out just to get the energy out of my system. ARTY: It seems like those conflicts can become pretty emotional depending on the circumstances where you've got folks that are overworked and stressed out, and wanting an advocate to help support them in those challenging circumstances. You just think about product deadlines and things coming up and the company's trying to survive and it needs to survive so it can keep people employed. Those things are important too, but then we've got these challenges with trying to live and be human and enjoy our lives and things become too stressful that we lose our ability to the function and we need advocates on various sides. So when you engage with someone, let's say, there's someone on the team that's burnt out and really stressed out, how would you approach empathizing with where they're coming from to help work toward some good the solution to these things? ANDREW: Great question. I think in these kinds of situations, I always come in with the acknowledgement that no one in this conversation owns the truth. We're both working together to understand what the best thing to do is and what the reality of the situation is. From my perspective, in trying to support someone seeing that they're burnt out, or overworked, that I think that's a misnomer. We can sometimes think of being burnt out overworked as an inherent state, or as something external. But I always try to encourage people to bring it internal because we all set boundaries and orders. The reality of an organization is that there will always be a resource constraint, whether that's people, or time, or money and it's up to the organization to effectively solve what they need to solve within the boundaries of those constraints. So when people are feeling overworked, or when they're feeling burnt out, oftentimes there's an imbalance there where the organization perhaps is trying to achieve too much, or perhaps there aren't enough resources supplied here. If you can both internalize it to yourself and say, “Okay, it's up to me to set responsible boundaries so that I'm not burnt out, so that I'm not overworked and how do I, as a manager, support you in finding that boundary and helping push back when people try to violate your boundaries?” Also, how do we, as an organization, understand where that line is and understand what kind of slack do we have? Because I think a lot of times in organizations, it's hard to see are we at 20% capacity, 200% capacity? It's hard to see because the more work you throw at people, unless you're getting pushback, it seems as if you still have more slack, more line you can pull. Part of this is acknowledging that there is a systems level problem here where there's a lack of visibility into how overworked someone is and also, helping someone recognize hey, here's my boundary. We're over at. Now let's figure out a, how do we move that boundary back to where it needs to be so that I'm a positive contributor to this team and I can live my life [chuckles] in a happy way and also, how do we raise this in a way that the organization can see so that we can ultimately be more successful?” If an organization is burning people out and making them feel overworked all the time, the work is not going to be successful. You care for people first and great people who are cared for then care for your projects and deliver great work. JACOB: Yeah, and it's like how can there'd be a health check for every person and what would that look like because I think if people are left to determine that for themselves, you can get really different conclusions from person. ANDREW: That is a great question I don't know the answer to. [laughs] I've been thinking about this a lot recently. My organization has a project health check where weekly, or bi-weekly, I can't remember, each project team talks about the different aspects of the work and whether, or not they're feeling well-supported, or if there are things external to the project that are getting in the way of project success. That gives you a data and interesting insights. We also track our time and there is a way that we track our time that's flagged as support to the team. So that's where managers and people who are assisting in making big project decisions, those people track their time to that separate line. That's also interesting to look at because typically people ask for help after they already need it and the people that are close to the project can see that they need help. So if you're looking at the time tracking, usually a week, or two before something shows up on this project health tracker, you see a spike in hours in the kinds of support that people are providing to the project. We have a lot of interesting data on the project health side of things, but it's really hard to collect data on the people part of this in a way that like makes people feel supported and it doesn't feel creepy. [chuckles] There's a whole aspect to this on whether, or not people feel comfortable reporting that they are feeling overworked and I haven't solved this problem. I'm curious if you all have ideas. [chuckles] I'd love to learn. ARTY: One of the things I'm thinking about with burnout in particular is I don't think it's directly correlated to the volume of work you're doing. There's other aspects and dimensions of things that go into burnout. So if I'm working on something that I'm really excited about, it can be difficult, it can be really challenging, it can be a huge amount of work, and yet as I work on it, as I get to the other side of that mountain I'm climbing, burnout isn't what I'm feeling like. It's a rush being able to accomplish something difficult and worthwhile as we don't necessarily burn out directly in correlation with working too many hours say, or something directly related to that. The things I find that happen when people get burned out is when they lose their heart connection with what they're doing. When you love what you do, when you're excited about what you're working on, when you're engaged and connected to a sense of purpose with what you're doing, then we usually stay in a pretty good, healthy state. We've got to maintain not still keeping in someone in balance, but we're doing pretty okay. Where I see developers usually burning out is there's some heart crushing aspect of things where people are disconnecting disengaging with what they're doing emotionally and they go into this mode of not caring anymore, not having those same compelling reasons to want to do those things and such that when that love connection dissipates, that work becomes too hard to maintain, to force yourself to do. So you start getting burnt out because you're forcing self yourself to do things that aren't an intrinsically motivated thing. I feel like the types of things that we need to do are activities that encourage this sense of heart connection with our team, with our project, with our customers. We do need visibility into those things, but maybe conversations, or even just knowing that those things are important, making time to scheduling time to invest in those sorts of things. I'm curious your thoughts on that. ANDREW: Yeah. Thank you for flagging that specifically. I think there's one thing that comes to mind for me is that is this work that you once loved that you no longer love? Like, is this something that you've connected with in the past and this really motivated you and now you're not motivated, I should say and if that's the case, what changed? I think brains are tricky and I think that we've all over the last pandemic, [chuckles] the current pandemic, I should say, the COVID pandemic is the one I'm referring to. I think that as people have coped with lots of trauma in their lives and significant shifts and changes, it's come out in interesting ways. I think, especially as people are learning themselves a little more with new constraints, the impacts are not always directly connected between say, the project work that you're doing, maybe something that you once loved, and now suddenly you no longer feel attached to that. What is that? Is that the work is somehow different? Is it that you really just your threshold for everything else in your life is just ticking higher and higher and higher so now it's really hard to engage in any of the things that you once loved? I personally have found myself, through the COVID pandemic, really finding meaning in repetition. So now I'm like a 560-day Duolingo streak and I've got podcasts I listen to every day of the week, and this repetition helps mark time in a way that makes me feel more like I have my life together. That gives me more capacity and reduces that stress threshold for me. So I think trying to narrow in on what specifically changed and how do we tackle that problem head on, and it might not be the work, or connection to the work. The other side of the question is, is this work your love? Maybe this is work that they've never really loved. Maybe this is grunt work—and one thing that I like to acknowledge is that every project has a grunt work associated with it and if you don't really have a framework for rotating that grunt work, a lot of times it falls to the person who has the least privilege on the team. So if as a positive team, you can work together and say, “Hey, these are the set of tasks that just needs to get done,” maybe that's notetaking in meetings, maybe that's sending out weekly status emails, or running a particular meeting. “Let's rotate that around so that we can find a balance between the grunt work and then the work that we're here to do this stuff that motivates us.” Because if the grunt work doesn't get done, the project won't be successful, but also, we all really want to work on the other thing, too. So let's make sure that no one here gets shafted with all that work [chuckles] and I think especially if teams haven't deliberately thought about that, patterns start to emerge in which people with less privilege get shafted. So I think that's something to be well acknowledge. JACOB: Quick shoutout. Episode 162 of this podcast, we talked with Denise Yu who really is framing exactly what you're talking about. She calls it glue work and it's that work that's maybe not directly recognized as a value add, but is the work that holds all of it together. So all of the work that might get done in JIRA, or around a Wiki, or organizing meetings, taking notes, all the above. The basic theory is like you said, how can that glue work be distributed equitably? Not to say that certain roles don't intrinsically need to do certain types of glue work because that's what their expertise is in. But it was a really good conversation. So if people are interested, go check that out, too. ANDREW: What are some ways that you're seeing that pandemic affect people in their work? ANDREW: I think the answer to that question is as varied as the number of people [laughs] that I support. I think each person is affected in dramatically different ways, which I didn't quite expect, but taking a step back and thinking about it, of course, each person's individual and each person reacts differently. But I would say that for some people, especially people in care-taking roles, that kind of work has to shift to support them. So if you're someone caretaking, you're often dealing with a lot of details in your out of work life and especially through the pandemic, now those lives are merging together. I'm currently at a remote organization and have been at a remote organization for the last 10 years, or so. The remote work thing is not necessarily new, but the complete merging of all of the things life and work is something that's still new and I think a lot of people who work remotely regularly often find ways to get out and get more exposure to people in their personal time, which is also something that has been limited. Especially if you're caretaking, you likely are doing that even less of your threshold for getting out is even lower. So if you're constantly dealing with details in your life, it might be good for you to take on more of that glue work, or more of the when you're thinking about the – I think I've worked in three categories. You've got the stretching work, or your growth work and that's work that is right on the cusp of your understanding. You're not really good at it yet, but by failing and by having moderate success, you grow as an individual. There's also your comfortable work, or your safety work and that's work that you're good at, you can knock it out of the park, do it really fast. I think for folks who are dealing with a lot in their personal life at the moment, leaning more towards the glue work, more towards the safety work is really important for making you feel successful and you're not really hungering that growth. I wished I remember the reference, but I heard someone referring to growth as being in a boat in a river before. Sometimes the river is wide and sometimes the river is narrow. When the river is wide, you really need to row. I found myself personally, in the last couple of years, not necessarily needing to grow as much and the river feels more narrow to me. So the current is faster and you're taken away with growth and you don't really need to do a lot to get there. Instead, you need to hold on [laughs] and try not to capsize. So that's one aspect, I would say I've seen people… CASEY: That's such a cool metaphor. I'm going to remember that. ANDREW: Yeah. I wish I remembered where I heard it from so that I can reference it for you all. It's definitely not an original idea of mine. But another aspect of the way people have individually in coping and needing support is around their social connection and that's an easy example. I think we've all felt differences in our social connection through COVID and sometimes that takes the form of having more structured meetings. Some people find more structure gives them the ability to communicate with each other in a way that makes you feel social and also isn't as draining and other people are the exact opposite where they want to get together in a room with less structure so that you can all just hang out and the structure gives people a sense of feeling stressed. The way that I've been looking across my organization is what kind of things are we providing and are they varied enough that we're capturing the majority of people in the support that they need? CASEY: I thought about a lot in the dance communities I am in that there is a lot of introverts that love to go dancing, partner dancing, because it's structured and they'll say so. Like, I love that I can just show up and do the thing and it's social, but I haven't thought about the other side of that, which you just said, which is some people don't want the structure. I'm sure those people exist and I just probably know a lot of them, but I haven't heard people say that about themselves as much. The introverts in the dance communities know and they say it. The other side, I'm going to look out for it. That's cool. ANDREW: I used to play music for religious music ministry and one of the rules we had is that if you're always picking things you like, you're leaving people out. I think of that not necessarily attached to music ministry, but attached to all the other work that I do and that's if your preferences are always represented, someone else's preferences are not. So trying to look around and say, “Who's not in the room right now, who could be benefiting from having their preferences heard once in a while?” CASEY: I want to jump back to how can we tell if people are about to be burnt out at work? How can we help people have a healthier environment? One of the lenses that I think about all the time is Project Aristotle by Google that came out, I don't know, maybe 5 years ago at this point and we're mentioning a lot of that aspects of it in our conversation already. Earlier, we were talking about on their list four and five are meaning of work like personal importance and impact of work, which is the company mission a little bit more. The other three that we touched on a little bit but not as much is psychological safety, which is number one on their list, dependability, like depending on each other, the coworkers, and structure and clarity, like goals, roles, and execution. I'm sure this is not a full list of what keeps individual employees happy. But I think a team environment that hits all of these five really well is going to have less burnout. More than individually, it's been studied. That's true. So when I did team health surveys before for the team, for the people, I like these five questions a lot. I bet it's a lot like the project surveys, Andrew, you were talking about. A lot of team health surveys are similar, but you got me thinking now what's missing from that list that's focused on the team that would show up in the individual one and I don't have a clear answer for that. ANDREW: And adding onto that, is there a way where you can collect honest data? I think one of the benefits of having one-on-one relationships with your immediate manager is that they can read between the lines and what you're saying after they get to know you well enough. I think for me, that usually happens about a year in with a new employee where you get to know someone well enough that you can understand. If they come to you and say, “Hey, I'm struggling with this right now in this project.” Is that a huge red flag, or is that normal? I think it takes a while to get to know someone and then you can read between the lines of what they're saying and say, “Okay, this is a big deal. It deserves my attention. I'm going to focus on this.” One of the things I struggle with capturing this information is that a, it's hard to capture that sort of interpretation part in these kinds of surveys and b, the data that you get is – when we were talking about burnout a lot, sometimes when people are burned out, they don't have the energy to submit these surveys. [chuckles] So the data is not particularly representative, but that's a hard thing to keep track of because how do you know? So it's a really tricky problem. I'm going to continue to try things [chuckles] to get this data, but I do like the idea of looking between the lines on if we're surveying team health, is there a way we can focus in on individuals? ARTY: There's also a lot of things that we don't talk about. Like Casey brought up psychological safety, for example and if you don't feel safe, you're not likely to necessarily bring up the reasons that you don't feel safe because you don't feel safe. [chuckles] I'm thinking about just some team dynamics of some teams I've worked on in the past where we had someone on the team that had a strong personality, and we would do code reviews and things, and some folks that were maybe more junior on the team felt sensitive and maybe attacked by certain things. But the response was to shut down and fall in line with things and not rock the boat and you ask him what's going on and everything's fine. So there's dynamics of not having psychological safety, but you might not necessarily get at those by talking to folks. Yet, if you're sitting in the room and you know the people and see the interactions taking place, you see how they respond to one another in context. Because I'm thinking about where those dynamics were visible and at the time, the case I'm thinking of was before the days where we were doing pull requests and stuff, where we did our code reviews in a room throwing code up on the screen and would talk through things that way. You'd see these dynamics occur when someone would make a comment and how another human would just respond to that person and you see people turn in words on themselves. These sorts of just dynamics of interaction where people's confidence gets shut down, or someone else is super smart and so they won't challenge them because well, they're a super smart person so obviously, they know. Some people speak in a certain way that exudes confidence, even if they're not necessarily confident about their idea, they just present in a certain way and other people react to that. So you see these sorts of dynamics in teams that come up all the time that are the silent undercurrents of how we all manage to get along with one another and keep things flowing okay. How do we create an environment and encourage an environment where people feel safer to talk about these things? ANDREW: To me, psychological safety and inclusion are very closely tied and I believe that inclusion is everyone's responsibility on a team and in the situation you described there, who else was in that room and why didn't they stop it? I think that it's easy to say, “Oh, these two people are having a disagreement here,” but if we all truly believe that it's our responsibility to create a safe environment and include everyone and their ideas. As you mentioned, everyone in that room could see what was happening. [chuckles] So I think there's a cultural thing there that perhaps needs some work as an organization and I'm not saying that that is something that I don't experience in my teams as well. I think this is work that's constant and continual. Every time you notice something, it's to bring it up and invite someone back into the conversation. Some people like to think about calling out, or versus calling in and I really like that distinction. When someone oversteps a boundary, or makes a mistake, they've removed themselves from this safe community, and it's up to you as a safe community to invite them back in and let them know their expectations and I like the idea of that aspect of calling people in. Obviously, that requires some confidence and I encourage people, especially people that have institutional privilege, to especially looking out for this because you can really demonstrate to your team how much you're willing to support them if you keep an eye out for these kinds of dynamics. One thing you mentioned really made me think about earned dogmatism. When people are around for a longer time, they become more closed-minded. That's the earned dogmatism effect and it's the idea that since you've been here for so long, or since you've been working in this industry so long, you're the expert and it causes you to become more and more closed-minded to new ideas, which obviously is not good. [laughs] So anytime I see that pattern popping up, I try to just let people know like, “Hey, do you know about this effect? Do you know that this happens with people in teams and is that how you would like to be? Would you like to become more close-minded, or would you like to continue learning?” I think just the awareness of the fact that that's something that you're going to inherently start doing helps people fight against that. JACOB: I'm trying to imagine just a typical, if you can call it that, team in a tech company and they're probably in a state where a lot of these things we're talking about might not come so easy because I think what we're saying is that a lot of this is dependent on everyone on the team being vulnerable about where they're at. I wonder if you have any ideas about how a team can get from there to the ideal state because it sounds like that's a really big barrier. I can't have better psychological safety and inclusion without somehow getting people's feedback and I can get feedback if they don't feel safe. So is there some iterative way to improve on that? ANDREW: Yeah. So one thing that I have direct experience with is in the federal government, there's a lot of funding models between the federal government and local governments where the federal government will pay for a majority of something as long as the local government follows a set of rules on implementing a program. So like Medicare and Medicaid are examples of this and other benefits programs as well. Even the federal highway system; the reason why our interstates are all the same is because the federal government pays for a majority of them if the local authorities building roads follows a set of rules and guidelines. I think that's one of the most dramatic examples of a power difference. If you're forming a joint team to make changes to Medicare, or build a new highway, or improve rail service in your city and one person in the room controls 90% of the money. I think that's a pretty dramatic example of what could be a really psychologically unsafe environment and it requires a lot of effort to break down that boundary of, “Hey, I'm here to say yes to what you want.” But then the reality is the federal government representatives in those situations are often looking to collaborate and help solve problems because they're looking out to see how do I best spend this money to achieve the best effect. But the tendency is that other members of the team coming from the 10% side of the house, they're responsible for the execution of the program and so, they tend to hide mistakes, or hide hiccups as much as possible so that they don't get their funding cut. That's just a very natural thing that happens and the experience that I have in this situation is what I like to think of as the Waffle House solution. I heard of a particular person in this situation taking the whole team to Waffle House. This obviously works better in-person. It's hard to take people to Waffle House remotely; that's definitely not something that you can't do. The idea behind that conversation is just the problem here is that you're not connecting with each other on a human level and you want to be safe to share your vulnerability with each other, but before you can be vulnerable with each other, you have to recognize each other's humanity and let everyone know that you respect each other. I think an easy way to do that is to share a meal, maybe it's to play a game together, maybe it's to schedule a meeting for 30 minutes in which you talk about note work. In the example that I gave it's up to the person in the position of power here to set that example, because if you're someone without that privilege, if you are someone who pays for 10% of a project instead of 90%, it's hard for you to go to your 90% funder and say, “Can I waste 30 minutes of your time? Can I waste half a day?” Because waste in this case is the idea from the business side of the house. You're wasting time. But in reality, if you slow down and connect with each other on a human level—slow is smooth and smooth is fast—so you can help the team develop that sense of humanity with each other, create an environment where hopefully you can be more vulnerable with each other and collaborate more humanly with each other. So I wouldn't necessarily say that this is a textbook plan like okay, you've got problems on your team, let's go to Waffle House and the problem solves. [chuckles] I'm not saying that but I am saying perhaps look for opportunities for you to recognize each other's humanity, and break down perhaps a structure that might be standing in the way of connecting with each other, and then just focusing on that can hopefully help you find that vulnerability better. JACOB: You can't take yourself seriously at a Waffle House. It's just not possible. ANDREW: [laughs] I'm pretty serious about Waffle House. I don't know about you. [laughs] CASEY: I'm starting to get a craving here. Yeah, totally agree. I love that this is being talked about more and more, how do we build psychological safety on teams? It comes from trust, human connection, vulnerability, and how do we build that? By treating each other as humans. ARTY: The things I think about just contrasting some teams I've seen over time and how they ended up developing and the culture that emerged is the technical leadership on the team that organically evolves. Some people have strong personalities. They tend to naturally act in a leader-oriented way. Even if they don't officially have the title hat on their head, they're somebody that people respect and look up to. They value their opinion and thoughts and whoever those people are that have the natural gravity tend to have a lot of influence over the emergent culture. So when I've seen people in that position, be really supportive of listening to the ideas of other folks on the team, creating space and treating people with respect, creating an environment where people are heard and listened to and it's about the ideas that the behavior of those people have an outsized impact on the culture that emerges by just how they interact and treat you respect others and other folks on the team tend to mimic and model that behavior of wherever that natural kind of gravity is going toward. If you've got folks on the team that are like that, that have a tendency to lift up other people around them, then what emerges is a much more psychologically safe environment. When you've got somebody in that gravity position that has an ego defensive response, they want to continue to feel like the confident expert ones, when people say counter things that are positioned as a challenge and you get a very different set of dynamics that emerge where people tend to be more walk on eggshells, try to say things very carefully to not upset things. I feel like it's just human instinct response depending on who's in the room, who you're talking to, how you anticipate they will react to something, that emergent interactions come from that and that whoever those gravity people are tend to have this outsize influence. So who you have in your organization of those folks? I'd say probably being really careful to hire people that have a tendency to and a desire to want to lift other people up and to maybe not have such a fragile competitive ego dynamic going on. ANDREW: Absolutely. Well, I have lots of feelings on hiring, [chuckles] but I do think that in the tech industry, we don't spend as much time focusing on communication and then I think that we should. I think a lot of times people who are in that ego situation are expressing vulnerability, but poorly and I think if they had more communication skills, they could potentially express that differently in a way that was more positive to culture. So zooming back to one of the things you said around leadership, evolution, evolutionary culture, and who steps into leadership roles, I think one of the things that is really important to me about good leadership is staying ahead of what your big problems are and that isn't necessarily saying working ahead of everyone else. That's saying keeping your eye on the horizon. Like, are you looking out to where we're going and what kind of problems are we seeing here? If there's an acknowledgement of an issue with psychological safety on teams, letting leaders emerge naturally may not be the right approach. You can deliberately select someone who demonstrates the culture that you want to create on a team has that technical leader and give them – I like the ACE model, the appreciation, the coaching, and the evaluation of leadership, where you give them that appreciation on the particular things that they're doing really well and in front of the team so that the team can say, “Oh, that's what the norm is here. That's what we should be doing.” That also gives the person, who may have perhaps more of a natural leadership role, if that would have naturally emerged, but perhaps it's missing some of those communication skills, or other skills that makes them a more around teammate, gives them an opportunity to be out of the spotlight so that they can work on developing those skills and becoming a more active contributor to the team instead of holding it back in some ways. CASEY: I love that we keep saying the word “skill: because these are all learnable skills. You can learn how to communicate well. You can learn how to be a strong, effective leader. You can learn how to foster a psychologically safe and inclusive environment. You can learn all these things. I love to work at places where they want this, the culture that the leaders, the people who run the company, want it even if they don't know how yet because that growth is possible as long as there's the desire for that. I think we all have a base level of desire, but some people are aware of it and articulate it and say – I saw a tweet the other day. Someone was looking for a job and of their five criteria, top five they listed in the tweet, psychological safety was on the list. That person knows they want to work on a team like that. That's pretty cool. So someone wants their team to learn these skills. A natural way is managers coaching their employees to do that kind of thing like coaching how to coach. That can work pretty well. It's pretty powerful. Another one is communities of practice, where you have people come together and talk. It could even literally be about culture. Some companies have a culture, community of practice, where they talk about how to influence the culture. Some places don't have the skills yet and they hire external coaches. There's a whole bunch of companies including me. For myself, I'm a consultant for making happy teams. I do coaching and training, too. There's online courses, there's books, there's podcasts like Greater Than Code. It's pretty good. You should check it out. [chuckles] But acknowledging the problem, being aware of it is a huge key first step and I don't like to push for a psychological safety in a place that doesn't value it. That's just a recipe for burnout for me. It's happened to me a lot, but in an environment where it is already desired, getting people from wanting to, to being able to. That's super satisfying work. I think that's true for anyone in tech who is talking about this kind of stuff, who cares about it. You want to make a difference where you can. ANDREW: Absolutely knowing when to jump ship at an organization because you are fighting upstream at a time when you are either being taken away in the current, or there aren't enough other people around you to swim upstream with you, it is super important. One of the things that helped me open a door in my life that I'd be happy to share with you all is an assessment I took a couple of years back called the TKI assessment, Thomas Kincaid Institute assessment, or something. I could've gotten that all wrong, but it's a tool that helps you understand what skills you already have around conflict resolution and what skills you can grow around conflict resolution. That unlocked a lot in my life specifically because it allowed me to understand how I naturally resolve conflict, to understand when I should push against my natural instincts to resolve conflict, and when I should feel that I have exhausted my abilities to resolve this conflict. That last step is a great indicator if you've tried everything you can to resolve the conflict, and maybe that conflict is around creating a psychologically safe workspace, you yourself cannot do this. So can you bring in other people that can help resolve this, or is it time to walk away and find a team that supports you better? The five different modes that they reference in TKI are competing, collaborative, collaborating, I should say, compromising, avoiding, and accommodating. When I first took the assessment, I scored a 0 in competing which means I had no recognizable skill in competing. When I look back into my history, my childhood, how I was raised, that totally makes sense. I was raised in a household where when people wronged you, you let it go. You moved on to find people who would support you and believed that that person would eventually experience justice and that was not your responsibility to do that. Applying to my work-life today, that means people can walk over me. [laughs] So how do you pick up those skills? The assessment doesn't necessarily dive too much into how you pick up the skills, but I think just knowing where your blind spots are was really helpful for me, because then I could recognize a situation where a, I flagged that I'm experiencing conflict. B, my natural tendency is to accommodate this conflict, or avoid it. C, is that the right approach for this environment? Is that a right approach for this problem? And then d, either do that approach, or change it. It's really uncomfortable. Often, when I'm competing, it makes me feel selfish and I acknowledge that. So when I'm like, “Okay, I'm going to change my approach and I'm going to compete here. I'm going to argue.” It's like, “Okay, I'm readying myself,” like, “Okay, I'm going to feel selfish now, be ready to feel selfish, go for it.” [laughs] And that's just sort of how I counteract those natural tendencies. So I wouldn't say there's one particular magic bullet, or this is the assessment that you should do, or anything like that, but there are a number of tools out there to sort of help you understand yourself and what skills you have and what skills you might want to grow into. They can also provide a sense of completeness around a particular skill area, like conflict avoidance, or conflict resolution, and let you know when you've exhausted the available options in front of you. ARTY: That's interesting to me just thinking about where we started this discussion with boundaries and just people can react in a different way, and if you have someone who's kind of overstepping boundaries, how do you learn to stand up for yourself? If your instinct is to just run away from conflict, whenever it comes up, then we've got other sorts of problems and stuff that emerges. Sometimes, the right thing to do is to stand up for yourself and to be able to have the confidence to feel like you can. One of the things that that helps me with that is when someone else is upset and reacting and stuff is maybe they're attacking me, or something is to separate myself personally for that. So if I imagine them in their head and I'm a cardboard cutout character that I'm like, “Okay, they're kicking the cardboard character and that's not me.” They have a picture in their head of this little cardboard character that they've got an upset relationship with that that's separate from me. I can look at the dynamics that are of what's going on with them and why they're upset with this cardboard character, understand what's going on in their world with separating myself from that, and then I can respond in a way that is standing up for myself without necessarily reacting to the situation where I feel like I need to defend myself against an attack that something going on that really has nothing to do with me, but still, I need to be able to stand up for myself and not necessarily back away from the situation. So I find those kinds of skills really help with being able to not take other people's stuff so personally. You talked about the challenge with boundaries and over empathizing can put us in a situation where the things that other people say can end up hurting us a lot, or we internalize somebody else's feeling so much, or someone else's worldview so much that we can lose ourselves in someone else's emotions and feels. How do we separate enough so that we can have a solidity in our own self and our own sense of knowing such that we can have our own compass that doesn't fall over, that we can feel bolstered in ourselves, independent of what everyone else is doing? That's where that empathy and boundaries and resilience and stuff come in. So a question for you, you did mention this boundary thing early on, what are some of the things that have helped you to develop boundaries, or some of the tools that you use to help in those challenging situations? ANDREW: I love the cardboard cutout analogy. I personally like to replay situations as if they're soap operas. I'll describe the characters, especially when things get heated emotionally, it's easy for me to recognize it as a soap opera, which helps me chuckle about the emotional component of it in a way that externalizes it from my feelings. It's a really tough situation. That's a tough ask. I think one thing that I do in the exact moments when I am feeling hurt, or valued, or some kind of emotional component is attached to something someone just told me is to again, pull that e-brake and say, “Okay, stop. I am not my work.” Similar to when you submit a pull request, you are not your code. I am not my work. I am not this conversation. I'm a whole self, I am valued as myself. I'm surprised by something that just happened and I'm reacting to it in a particular emotion, emotional reaction. So if you can create a pattern, when people get you into that emotional state, whether, or not they were intending on getting you there, of saying, “Hold on, I'm caught off guard by that. Can you tell me more?” Like, “I don't understand that comment.” It shifts the power dynamic from someone putting you on the spot, which they may, or may not have intended to do, to shift it back towards them to say, “Now the responsibility is on you as the person who has made me feel upset, or I'm caught off guard by that and the responsibility now is on you to describe more so that I can contextualize the emotion that I'm feeling, or just give me time to react to that.” You don't always have to immediately respond and oftentimes, I find myself reacting too quickly. All of the tools that I have in my toolbox are slowing down. That's one of the tools that I definitely use to help acknowledge that something is unusual. Another tool is I'm asking people to summarize so acknowledging that, “Hey, I'm surprised by that and I'm starting to get lost in the details of this meeting. Would it be all right if I asked you to summarize the main points here, or could you follow-up in Slack after this, or follow-up an email after this?” That's another one of those, like my natural tendency to avoid. It's like okay, I can take a step back here and avoid this immediate conflict, or this immediate emotion, and then take a breather. Often, in the before times, as I would go out and speak at conferences and I'm not a natural extrovert. I have this tendency after I speak at a place to go find a closet, or some dark room somewhere [chuckles] just to recharge a little bit, do nothing. I often will just sit there and sweat in a closet for 30 minutes, or something like that. That process allows me to reset my blood chemistry and say, “Okay, how do I fully acknowledge this situation?” Like, do I feel like I did a good job? Am I proud of the work that I'm doing? Am I proud of this? Is this where my boundaries should be? It allows me to give that moment to step away, to reset a little bit. So it's something I think that I will spend the rest of my life learning, which is how to recognize my boundaries and set them appropriately, and I think that's right. I should be continuing to learn as I continue to change. ARTY: I really liked the summary thing. Just thinking about someone's really upset, it's a pretty safe question to ask and at the same time, it forces them to take a step back and really think about what it is that they're trying to say. Because usually when we're upset, we just spew lots of words of upsetness, but it forces you to shift into more of a thinking mode away from emotional mode, which I feel like would have a really good impact on level setting the conversation. Just take a deep breath. What is it you're trying to communicate here? What are the main points? I really liked that summarization idea. ANDREW: The one thing I always myself in those moments is, “Nothing is more important than my next breath,” and that helps me to unplug from the situation and focus on breathing and focus on relaxing and then be able to show back up and reengage. JACOB: Something that I think can be important is if I'm at work and I'm realizing that I need to be vulnerable in one way, or another because I need to draw a boundary, or for some other reasons, something that I feel like would be really important that I would really need to have is an example that would give me some idea of what will happen when I do that. How can team members get examples of what happens when I'm vulnerable, because if they don't know what will happen, they're probably going to be left to their own personal experiences from maybe at another job, or something like that, that probably don't apply, that probably would be completely different. So it's like, how can managers, or leaders help people see, or experience examples of this is how we talk about difficult conversations to normalize it and just help people understand, like, this is what will happen and this is the way we go about it and yes, it will be safe. ANDREW: I don't think you can say that. [laughs] JACOB: I know. ANDREW: And that maybe is controversial, but I don't think you can say, “Yes, this will be safe.” I think you can strive for it and you can work for an environment that's safe, but in a professional setting, there's always a line and maybe it's not safe to share something that you think is appropriate to share and there are lots of reasons for that. Maybe it's the impact on other people. But the pattern I like to encourage and people just ask for permission, which is something that is maybe not always universally applicable advice, but oftentimes, I find myself talking to people when they're on teams where they want to say something controversial, or they want to say something difficult, or they want to share something that's personal and how they attach to this project, or this work, or something that happened in the team. I think there's a lot of power in asking people to support you to coming in and saying, “I really want to share something with you all and I'm not sure how it's going to go. Can you support me in this? What are you interested in hearing?” The way I often say it, when I'm trying to say something controversially is, “Can I be spicy for a moment?” [laughs] And that's an acknowledgement of saying like, “Hey, I'm going to say something comfortable.” It gives people a moment to set their expectations and it gives them a moment to recognize how they should respond before they hear what you say and then are caught up in the emotion of the response. I think that's a really kind thing you can do to your team to say like, “Hey, can I be vulnerable for a second here?” Like, “This is a project which involves researching prison populations and three of my family members are in prison.” If you lead off with saying, “Three of my family members are in prison,” people don't know how to understand that comment. But if you start by saying, “Can I be vulnerable for a second?” People will recognize that hey, you're showing something deep about you and your personality and it's something tied to your sense of identity, or something deep within you in a way that is not the responsibility of the team to validate, or say it's right, or wrong. But it is the responsibility to the team to hear you and to understand you and ask questions to say, “Hey, tell me more about that. Tell me more about how that connects to this work,” or “Do you want to interview some of your family for research on this project?” [chuckles] Or “Do you want them to stay out of this project?” Or “How do we support you as a team member? Is this something that you want to acknowledge, but you'd prefer to put that in a box and keep it on the shelf, or is that a part of your identity that you'd like to bring to this conversation and bring to this work?” I think those conversations like can really benefit from that asking for permission step and you don't really need to wait for people's answers there, [chuckles] but it gives you an opportunity to set the tone for the conversation. JACOB: I feel like if I was working on your team and I saw Andrew use that phrase, “Can I have permission to be vulnerable? Can I be spicy?” I feel like later when I felt like I needed to be vulnerable, I would feel a lot more comfortable because now here's a map that's if I do this, it's probably not completely out of bounds and that now I have a way to know here's how we go about that on this team, because there's a leader who modeled it. ARTY: Yeah, bingo. I was just thinking about all the different ways I've screwed things up and stuff and learned, I guess, the hard way, what boundaries are the hard way of what unsafe things are is by making mistakes and screwing things up. I think about some of these experiences that I had and I feel like the saving grace for me, even when I messed something up, is that I genuinely cared and that people knew that and could see that and so, that when I apologize for something, it was authentic and that we could move forward and stuff because I cared. Underneath it all, I genuinely care. So even though I made some mistakes and stuck with things that was okay. And then after that, when I was thinking about being in more of a leadership position, one of the things I made a point of doing was putting mistakes and stuff I've made on center stage. Making it okay and safe for people to talk about when they screwed something up. Being in a leadership position, when I talked about all the things that “Well, I screwed up this thing, I screwed up this thing;” it makes it okay when our leaders demonstrate vulnerability, or create ways and pathways that show us how to do those things safely, too. ANDREW: That reminds me of a friend of mine had a conversation with me last weekend specifically around a mistake that they had made and that mistake was in an online community. They were discussing building a world in a video game and they suggested building something that was offensive. They immediately dove into how they didn't know it was offensive at the time and that the reaction that other people gave to them was inappropriate and that they felt like they didn't know how to apologize in a way that would help support growth, or reengagement with the community, and that they felt like, “Maybe I'm just being canceled,” or maybe people are overreacting here. After the whole conversation, I just let them talk out and they ended with like, “How do I reengage here when people are now ignoring me?” and I just said, “Well, you don't deserve a second chance.” Not that anyone deserves to be canceled immediately, or cut out, but when someone says something offensive that you take offense in, it's up to that person how much tolerance they have for you. If someone has decided that this in this situation was so offensive, or that their tolerance for that offense is low, you don't get a second chance there. That's a mistake that becomes part of you and hopefully, you can allow that burden to not rest on your shoulders and hold you down, but you can internalize it and learn from it, and it becomes part of the foundation you stand on so that you don't make these kinds of mistakes next time. And also, [chuckles] demonstrating an aspect of my superpower, I disagree with you. I don't think you didn't know that that was offensive. [chuckles] I think you had that part of your brain turned off and hey, can we like talk about that? I think that this particular thing, you knew it was offensive, but you were thinking about this in a different context, or you thought this would be okay, and now you're rewriting this and placing yourself as a victim. That is a dangerous pattern so don't do that. [chuckles] I think that in a work setting, tying this back, when you are having these difficult, or vulnerable conversations, being able to acknowledge when you've made a mistake, maybe perhaps when you've shared something that is offensive, or perhaps you've made a comment about someone else's moment that's offensive, it's really important to acknowledge the mistake to provide the opportunity for others to give your feedback and acknowledge that you've damaged trust here. It's your responsibility as the person who damaged that trust to then rebuild it and maybe rebuilding that trust means leaving the organization, or changing teams, or maybe that means really, truly deeply listening and empathizing with people moving into that position of hurt that you've caused and being uncomfortable with it, especially when you're personally wrong. When I'm personally wrong, I really feel that I want people to understand how much I'm hurt and if there isn't a great opportunity to share that pain with someone it's hard to accept their apology, because you don't feel like they understand. In those situations, it's up to the person who's done the controversial thing, or overstepped that boundary to step in and say, “Let's talk about this when you're ready.” ARTY: And also, the other thing I'm just thinking is that when things do happen, we need opportunities and stuff to start over, too. Sometimes the right thing to do is walk away from the whole thing, but learn from it and there's always, there's so many people out there, there's so many opportunities out there, and we're surfing on the waves of life. We learn things along the way and there's always new relationships and things we can build and if we take those lessons and stuff with us for when we do screw things up that maybe we can navigate the next opportunity a little bit different. I've had enough facepalm moments and stuff of just relationships where the things that come to mind for me are things where someone was put off from me because I'm kind of the passionate, excited person and not everyone knows how to deal with that, or might think I'm a weirdo, or something. So I'll scare someone away and I don't mean to. I'm like, “But I'm a nice person” kind of thing, but sometimes there's nothing you can do about it. It's like this first impression thing that you can never really fix, but there's other opportunities out there, there's other relationships, and maybe the purpose of this interaction in your life is just for you to internalize and learn this lesson so that you carry it with you forward. We're all surfing on the waves of life and these kinds of things happen and it's not the end. It's just an opportunity. It's an opportunity to learn a lesson that then we can take with us into the future. ANDREW: Absolutely. Yeah, I know. I've been fired from jobs, had friends cut me out of their lives and made a lot of mistakes. That becomes part of who I am and I carry that forward and I'm happy that I've made these mistakes in my past because they prepared me for making bigger mistakes in the future. What could be more fun? CASEY: A lot of people get stuck on these experiences, thinking about them over and over and over in a loop and one way to get out of the loop is to correct the situation, which people like to try first, of course. Like, try to get back into that relationship, or community. Another way is to realize there's nothing you can do and move on, that's often called acceptance in meditation mindfulness terms. But it can be hard to get to acceptance if you feel like there's something you can do still, or something you could learn, you didn't learn everything you could yet and how to do that is hard. It's a lot of the chapters in the book I wrote, Debugging Your Brains. I'm not going to go into that right now, but there are things you can do to get out of the loop when you're stuck in the loop. I feel so awkward ever plugging my own stuff, but it's so relevant. That's what we're talking about here. [laughter] Y'all don't mind, I know. JACOB: No, I'm glad to hear about it. CASEY: Now let's go to reflections. So at this is the part of the episode where we each reflect on something that stuck out to us. Something we'll take with us. Something that was interesting from today's episode. ARTY: One of the things that stood out to me as we were talking about psychological safety, and these dynamics of leadership and who we choose as leaders as being important is this intersection between once we identify what the kinds of things are that we want to select for, that we can identify those people and then give them acknowledgement, the baton of an official hat

On today's episode you will hear part 4 of 4 of Russell's interview with Andrew Warner about the Clickfunnels start up story. Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ClubHouseWithRussell.com ---Transcript--- Hey everyone, this is Russell Brunson. Welcome to the 4th and final installment here of the interview with Andrew Warner at the Dry Bar Comedy Club, where he's going deep into the Clickfunnels startup story. I hope you've enjoyed it so far. You know, throughout this entire interview, it was really fun. He brought my wife onstage and some of my partners onstage, and brought other people who didn't like me at first onstage and kind of shared all these things. I hope all you guys are enjoying it and really enjoying this interview. I hope that this starts making you think about your startup story. Some of you guys are living your startup story right now, and maybe you're depressed or nervous, or scared, or afraid or whatever. And hopefully this gives you motivation to know that I was there too. In fact, I'm still there many times, but it's okay and it's part of the game and part of the process. And someday you'll look back and you'll have someone like Andrew interviewing you about your startup story and you'll be so grateful for the trials and things you're going through now. So with that said, we're going to queue up the theme song, when we come back we'll listen to part 4 of 4 of the Clickfunnels startup story interview with Andrew Warner at the Dry Bar Comedy Club. Andrew: And I know a lot of you have asked me what's coming up next and Russell's going to talk about that, how you're going to get to Sales Force level, but why don't I take a couple of questions from someone. Is there anyone who's been sitting here going, “I can't believe Andrew didn't ask that.”? Is there anyone who has something standing out for them? Should we just have them onstage. Unknown person: We got mic's. Andrew: We got mic's from over there, okay. Audience member: Alright, a little bit deeper of a question. What is something, I know you're strong in your faith, family, God, I mean kind of all around, what's something that's really made you who you are? You've mentioned before that made you as a marketer with your dad, you're up late watching an infomercial. But what's something that inherently that could have been experienced, maybe a quote in the back of your mind that's just driven you, it could have been something that your parents taught you when you were young. What is, is there, it's kind of a little bit difficult of a question to look back, there's probably a million things. But what are one or two that really stick out, that make you the person that you are? Russell: I have a million thoughts just racing through my head. The one that just popped in the front, so I'll share that one, hopefully it's good. I remember when I was a kid my dad gave me a job to go clean the car. I went out there and I cleaned the car, I did my best job, I thought. And I came back in and I was like, “Hey dad, it's clean. Can I go play?” I was like, “Come look at it.” So he could let me go out and play. And he was like, “Well, is it good? Are you proud of it?” and I'm like, “I don't know.” And he's like, “Well, are you proud of it.” I was like, “I don't know.” And he's like, “Go work on it until you're proud of it, then come back and let me know.” And I was like, oh man. So I go back out, and I was like, “Am I proud of this?” and I was thinking about it, I guess technically I'm really not that proud of it. So I was like trying to do more things, trying to clean it better, and to the point where I was actually proud of it. And then I came back and I'm like, “Dad, okay the car's clean now.” And he's like, “Are you proud of it.” I'm like, “I am.” And he's like, “Okay, you can go out and play then.” I think for me that was such a big thing because it was just like, that internal “Am I proud of this thing that I'm giving, that I'm putting out there?” and if not, keep doing it until you are. And I don't know, that was one of those little weird dad moments that he probably didn't mean as a teaching opportunity, but definitely has been big for me ever since then. Andrew: Good question. Is there one on this side? While you're finding a person who has a question, Whitney, did you have more to say? You were going to ask more, right? Yeah, can you get the mic over to Whitney, please? She's right over here. I know I didn't ask your full question. Whitney: Hi Russell, how are you? Russell: Awesome, how are you doing? Whitney: Good. So with your business, what is, back to like when you were first starting, I kind of want to know, what's the one thing when your business was really hard, when you were really struggling, what's the one thing that kept you going? Just in the back of your mind. And then I have a second part of that. What would you say was your biggest failure and what was the greatest lesson you learned from it? Russell: That's not an easy question. Andrew: The biggest failure. Russell: Oh man. So the first question was, what was the first one again? Thinking about the biggest failure, I'm trying to…Oh, what kept it going? Andrew: Give me a sec. Are you going through that now? You are, what are you going through right now? Can you stand up and get close to the mic? I can see that this is a meaningful question for a reason. What's going on? Be open. Whitney: I'm just trying with my business, I'm trying to get my message out there. I'm really, I'm just baby parts of Clickfunnels, so I'm just figuring out how to do a funnel still. But my company is called Creating Powerful Women, so I am just trying to teach women how to grow a business while they grow their family at the same time. And I'm doing that right now, because I have 3 little tiny girls. So I'm just like, okay, I'm still trying to figure out this myself and then teach women how to do it at the same time. So it's just, I'm still in that struggle phase. Andrew: Is it partially because you feel like an imposter, how can I tell them what to do? That's what I was saying to you earlier. Whitney: When I don't even know. Yeah. {Crosstalk} Whitney: I feel like I need to have that success level before I can teach women to go out and do it. But the reason when I found you in the hall, and I said, “I want Russell to be vulnerable and tell like the nitty gritty parts of the story.” And those stories are what make people relatable to you, that's kind of where I'm at, as I realize that I grow a bigger following and a bigger audience when I'm more relatable to them, which I realize I don't need to be up at that level to do that. Andrew: I get that. Russell: So my question for you is, have you been working with women? Helping them so far? Tell me a story of someone you've helped. I'm curious. Whitney: So I went through post partum depression a couple of years ago, after I had a baby and a lot of the women I've been reaching out to when I shared those stories, those women have been coming to me saying, “Hey, how do you get through this struggle? I know you've gotten past that, so I want to hear the hard stories that you went through.” So a lot of the people who I've been coaching one on one have been people who have gone through those exact same things  that I have. Russell: Okay when you do that, and you share the stuff with them, and that clicks for them, how does that feel? Whitney: Like I'm fulfilling what I was put on this planet to do. Russell: That's the thing. That's the thing that keeps me going. It doesn't happen often, but it happens often enough that I crave that. I'm super introverted, so it's always awkward for people to come to me, but I still love when they come to me and they're like, “Hey, just so you know real quick…..” Like last night, we were in San Francisco, or San Diego, excuse me. Someone came up to me in the hall and I was kind of like, I'm nervous to talk to you but you're going to talk to me. And he said, “Hey, just real quick, you legitimately changed my life, you changed my family.” And started tearing up. And I was just like, I let myself feel that just for a second and then I go back to the awkwardness, but for a second I feel that. And It's just like ahh. That's what it's about you know. I use Voxer for my coaching clients. So every time they Vox me and say something like that, there's a little star button and I star it and it stores them in this huge thing of all the starred ones. So now days I'll go back and I'll listen to that and I'll listen to people like 2 years ago that said something about how something I did effected them, and it's just like, that feeling. Because everything we do in this life is for feeling's right. Everything is just a feeling we're looking for. We eat because we want a feeling. We did this because we, I wanted a feeling. We're doing everything for a feeling. So it's like if I can remember the feelings of the thing I'm trying to get, and I can experience it again, then it, that's what gets me and keeps me going.  And I think that any of us that are lucky enough to have those feelings, a lot of times we forget about them. No, remember that because that's the thing, when it's hard and it's painful and it's dark, it's that feeling that's just like, that's the, you remember that and you let yourself experience it again for a minute. And then for me, that's like, okay, I can get back up and I can go again. Andrew: Great question, I'm glad you asked it. How about one more over there? You know what, yeah, let's give her a big round of applause, please. Audience member: I was actually going to ask a little bit about that vulnerability. I was surprised, I'm big in the SAAS space, I've been to Dream Force, follow a lot of Clickfunnels. It's pretty rare to see a CEO want to put themselves kind of on the roasting side of things. You're from here, from Sandy. I was just kind of surprised, what was it that really compelled you to kind of want to come back and do this in Utah? When I saw your email I thought it was a clickbait scam. Russell: Oh it is, we're selling you something next. Audience member: I really thought I was going to come and it was going to be a video of your face spinning and it was going to be like, “Hi, we're here.” Because I follow Clickfunnels, but it's just really rare, especially being down in Utah county, that was kind of unique that way. Andrew: Wait, one sec. Does Clickfunnels allow me to actually place someone's city in the headline, like I want someone from San Francisco, you could. Oh, alright, I get it. Audience Member: It said like Idaho, we're in the surrounding areas, it's going out to 8000 people, limited seating. So as a marketer I was just like, is this a real thing? You know. So I showed up and I was excited to see you. But why come back to Utah, what does this event mean to you and why want to be vulnerable and kind of open up? I learned a lot about you personally that was great to hear from a business side. Russell: So my beliefs are, and I believe we have the best software company in the world, so I'm going to start with that. But if it's just about the software, then it comes down to who's got what feature. People are moving and shifting and changing because of the features. That's the thing. So Clickfunnels was like, no it has to be more and it has to be a thing. And it's interesting, people who sign up for Clickfunnels, who click on an ad, they come and sign up. That's why John can't do, it doesn't work that way. They sign up for a web, clickfunnels is a website builder for crying out loud. You boil it down, we are a website builder. That is boring. So people don't come for that. They stay for that. That's why they stay, that's why they stay. But they come because of a feeling, and they come because of a connection. I want to be able to take the videos from here because if I can more people who come through my funnels to hear this story, they're going to stick with Clickfunnels because they realize we have a soul. There's a reason behind this, it's not just the software company who's trying to make a bunch of money. We're actually, we have belief behind it. So that's why we do all these things. That's why I still write books. That's why we do videos. That's why we do vlogs. That's why we do this fun stuff, because it builds connection with people, and connection really keeps people staying, even if some other company's got a different feature than we do, or it's cheaper and we're more expensive, or whatever. So that's the big reason why we still do it. And then I thought it would be fun to come down here because I grew up not far from here and it's just kind of a fun thing. We've been working with the Harmon Brothers and we started another project with them and their family owns the Dry Bar Comedy Club, if you guys have ever watched Vid Angel, that's one of their families companies. When Vid Angel had their little hiccups, they shifted all the programming to this, the Dry Bar Comedy Club, so we used to watch all the comedians here. And I was like, this is like the coolest location to do something like this. And one of the other side jokes, I don't know if I shared this with you or if it was just in my head, but Andrew is famous for doing these big scotch nights, and as a Mormon I can't drink scotch. And I was like, what if we did this, but at a Dry Bar, just this funny play off of that? And it all worked out. Andrew: You know, usually at events I do scotch night afterwards and say, ‘Everyone come back to my room.' That's not going to go over very well. But Dave's been to mine. He drinks water and feels comfortable. We have good water for Dave. How about one more, then I want to get into the future. Audience Member: So you always talk about how, like for Clickfunnels you guys took like 6 tries to finally make it work, right. And how most of the time when you guys start something it doesn't work the first time, that's why you have audibles and all those things. So I was wondering as someone that, you know I'm starting and getting that, kind of like that lifts, what is the biggest thing that you see, versus like a flop funnel versus something that kind of takes off and explodes? What's the audible or the change that you normally do that shift or the message change or whatever it is, that makes it finally take off? Russell: Traditionally the difference between a funnel that works and doesn't work, I'd say it's probably 50% offer. Like if the offer's wrong it's not gonna, that's usually the first thing. But then if it's actually a good offer, that people actually want, second then is usually copy. So like what's the hook, those kind of things. And then design is probably 3rd. All that stuff that Theron and those guys didn't like at first. The things that, because it's not like we just made up this stuff, you saw 8000 funnels we tested and tried in the journey of 15 years of this, that now we know what things people convert on. So it's just like looking at stuff that you know is working and modeling it because you this structure works, this kind of thing. But usually when something is broken it's coming back and figuring out, this offer's not right. People didn't want it. And that was the problem with Clickfunnels. The offer, we took 4 or 5 times to get the offer right, and then as soon as the offer is right, you can tell when it's right because people will buy, even if everything else is bad, if your offer is amazing people will give you money for it, you know. So that's definitely the biggest part, and from there it's copy, then design, then all the little things that stress some people out, like me. Andrew: So I've got, we'll come back. I see there are a few people that have more questions; we'll come back to them in a moment, including you. I promise I'll do more. But you did tell me about all the different things you guys are working on now. Of all of them, what one is going to get you the closest to Sales Force level? Russell: That's a good question, there's so many things. So I would say, I'm going to ask you a question is that alright? Have you ever played bigger yet? Played bigger? Playing bigger?  Andrew: No, what do you mean by that? Russell: That's the name of the book right? Play Bigger? Andrew: Oh Playing Bigger, the book. No. Russell: Yes. So that's book's been interesting, if you guys haven't read it, it's one of the biggest ones as a team that we've been reading. But it's all about designing the category and becoming the king of that category. So I feel like we are the king of sales funnels, and that's our category, the thing that's going to be there. And then if you read through the book, the next phases are like, building out the ecosystem that supports you as the category. And the fascinating thing about sales force, if you look at it when, I probably shouldn't say this on video because someday Mark Benioff's going to watch this and be like, “I'll never give you money.” But sales force isn't great software, right. It's this hub that things are tied into, but the reason why they did 13 billion this year, they're trying to get to 20 billion is because they built this ecosystem. The ecosystem is what supports this thing and grows it up, and builds it. And that's like the next phase. So I think for us, it's like we have this, we have funnels which are the key. It's like the CRM for them, it's the central point. But it's then bringing all the ecosystem, it's building up all the things around it, right. Andrew: Letting other people create things on your platform, becoming a platform. Russell: Yes, becoming a true platform. Andrew: can you create a platform when what you want is the all in one solution when you're saying, “you don't have to plug in your chat bot to our software. We're going to be chat bot software.” “You don't have to plug in infusion soft, we've got email marketing in here or mail chimp.” Russell: It depends, because you look at Sales Force is similar too. They have their own things that they either acquire and bring them in, or they build their own, things like that. And I think it's a hybrid of that. I think it's, we allow people to integrate because some people have tools. We will, our goal is to always be the best sales funnel builder on planet earth. We may not be the best email auto responder in the world, we have one and that increases our revenue. And people who love us will use our email auto responder, but there may be some other one that's better. But it's not our big focal point. There may be a chat bot that's got more features and more things, that's not gonna be our focus to make it the best, but we've got one built in to make it. So theer will be, that's kind of our thought, that we will have the things included, so if people want to go all in they can use it. But if they love yours because of these things, they can still bring that and still bring it in. You know, and then as we grow, who knows what the next phase is. Is it acquisitions, finding the best partners? People that most of our members are using, start acquiring companies and bringing them in, internally similar to what Sales Force does, growing the platform. Andrew: Just keep letting people build on your platform and then does that make the platform more valuable, or do you guys get a share of the money that people spend on these external tools? Russell: Both, I think. Stripe for example, Stripe, I think we process 1.7 billion dollars through Stripe. We make over a million bucks a year from Stripe referral fees, for just letting them connect with us. So there's value on both sides because it makes the platform more valuable because people can use it easier, but we also make money that direction as well, and those type of things. Andrew: Okay, what is Actionlytics, Action… Russell: Actionetics. Andrew: Excuse me. Russell: So that was Todd's name. He loved that name. So Actionetics is, it's what we call internally, follow-up funnels. So we have sales funnels, which are page one, page two, page three, page four. Then a follow-up funnel is send this email, send this text message. “Here's the retargeting pixels, here's the thing.” So it's the follow-up funnels. It's all of the communication that's happened after somebody leaves the page with your audience. Andrew: And that's a new product that you guys are creating? Russell: Yeah, it's been, actually we make more revenue from Actionetics than we do from Clickfunnels right now. We've never marketed it outside though. Andrew: I can't get access to it, it asked me for my username and password. I said, I don't have that, so how do I sign up for it? Russell: it's only been in beta. So we opened up at Funnel Hacking Live, people signed up there. And then we kept it down for a year, then we opened it, so two Funnel Hacking Lives we opened it, and then my birthday we opened it. So that's it. But we have, it's over, 12-13 thousand members who have upgraded to that. And then we're probably a couple weeks away from the actual public launch where people will be to get, everyone will be able to get access. Andrew: And already people are spending more money on that than Clickfunnels? Russell: Yeah, because it starts at $300 a month versus $100. So it's the ascension up. So they go from $100 a month to $300 a month and then the new one, it scales with you. Because we're sending emails and Facebook message, it gives us an ability to grow with the platform as well, and not just have a $200 a month limit. Someone might pay $1000 or $5000 depending on how big their lists are. Andrew: You're really good at these upsells, you're really good at these extra features. How do you think about what to add? How do the rest of us think about it, based on what's worked for you? Russell: Okay, that's a great question, and everyone thinks it's a product, the question most people ask is, what price point should my upsells be? It has nothing to do with that. It has 100% to with the logical progression of events for your customer. So when someone comes to you and they buy something, let's just say it's weight loss. So they come to you and they buy a weight loss book right, and let's say it's about how to get abs. So they buy that, the second they put their credit card in and click the button, in their mind that problem has now been solved. I now have six pack abs, the second it's done. And people don't think that. So what people do wrong is the next page is like, “Cool, you bought my abs book. Do you want my abs video series?” it's like, “No, I just solved that problem. I gave you money. It's been solved.” So what we have to think through, for logical upsells is like, “okay, I just got abs, what's the next logical thing I need?” So it's like, “Cool you got abs now, but how would you like biceps? We can work it out. This is my training program to grow here.” For funnels it's like, here's this funnels software, or here's this book teaching you how to build funnels, but after you have a funnel you need traffic. So traffic's the next logical progression. So as soon as someone's bought something, the customer's mind, I believe, that problems been solved. And it's like, what's the new problem that's been opened up, because that problem's been solved. That's the logical… Andrew: I got my email addresses because of Clickfunnels, the next problem I'm probably going to have is what do I send to people? And that's what you're solving. What about this, fill your funnel, it's a new software. Russell: Yeah. Andrew: What is it? Russell: How do you know these things? That is good, you have been digging. So I'm writing my third book right now, it's called Traffic Secrets, and then on the back of it we have software that's called Fill Your Funnel, that matches how we do traffic with the book. So when someone reads the book, you login and the way we do traffic, we focus very heavily on influencers. We call it the Dream 100. So you come in and you login and you're like, “Here's the people in my market. There's Tony Robbins, there's Andrew..” you list all these people and it starts pulling all our data, scraping all their ads, their funnels, everything  and shows you everything that's happening in their companies, so you can reverse engineer it for what you're doing. Andrew: So if I admire what John is doing for you guys, I could put you in the software, you'll show me what you guys are doing, and then I'll be able to scrape it and do it myself. You're nodding. And you're okay with that? John: It's awesome. I'm excited. Russell: Excited. Andrew: Have you been doing that? Is that part of what's worked for you guys at Clickfunnels? John: Yeah, we like to, we call it funnel hacking. We like to look and see what other people are doing. Andrew: So you're actively looking to see what other, man as an interviewer that would be so good for me to understand what people are doing to get traffic to their sites. Alright, so… Russell: We buy everyone's product, everyone's. I bought Drew's like 6 times. Yeah, you're welcome. Just because the process is fascinating to see. Andrew: And then the book. What's the name of the book? Russell: Traffic Secrets. Andrew: Why is everything a secret? What is that? Russell: I don't know. Andrew: No, I feel like you do. I remember I think it was… Russell: It all converts, 100% because it out converts. Andrew: Because the word, “secret” out converts? In everything? Russell: Everything. I used to onstage be like, “The top three myths, the top three strategies, the top three lies, the top three everything” and like “secrets” always out converted everything else, and then it just kind of stuck. Andrew: And then that's the name of this book. I'm looking here to see…yeah, Melanie, she told me when you organized this event you said, “Secret project”. That's it. Russell: If I just tell people what's happening then they like, “Oh cool.” I need to have to build up the anticipation. Andrew: Even within your team? Russell: Especially within the team. Yes. Andrew: Especially. So secret is one big thing. What else do you do? Russell: Secrets, hacks… Andrew: No, within the team. So now you get them interested by saying it's a secret. Russell: So I'll tell them a story, I'll tell them the beginning of a story. I'll be like, “Oh my gosh you guys, I was listening, I was cleaning the wrestling room and I was going through this thing, and I was listening to Andrew and he was doing this campfire chat and it was amazing. And he's telling this whole story, and I have this idea, it's going to be amazing. But I'll tell you guys about it tomorrow.” So what happens now, is they've got a whole night to like marinate on this and be like, “What in the world?” and get all excited. And then when they show up, they're anticipating me telling them, and then when I tell them, then I get the response I want. If I tell them they're like, “Oh cool.” I'm like, no, you missed it. I need that, in fact, I'll share ideas all the time, I'll pitch it out there just to see. I know it's a good idea because Brent will be like, “I got chills.” Dave will start freaking out, and that's when I know, “Okay, that was a good idea.” If they're like, “Oh that's cool.” I'm like, crap. Not doing that one. It's the same thing. Andrew: I've heard one of the reasons that you guys hang out together is one, he's an extrovert and you're an introvert, but the other one is Dave will one up you. Russell: It starts the process. This is the bubble soccer event we did. Initially it was like we're going to have influences, or we were launching the viral video and like we need, let's bring some people into it. And then we were asking how someone could bring big influencers, like “you have to do something crazy. Like get a Ferrari and let them drive over it in a monster truck.” I was like, “That seems extreme.” I was like, “What if we played football on the Boise State Stadium?” And Dave's like, “What if we did bubble soccer? What if we tried to set a Guinness book of world records…” and then next thing we know, we're all Guinness book of world record champion bubble soccer players. It was amazing. Andrew: And that's the thing that I've heard about your office environment. That it's this kind of atmosphere where, see for me, look at me, I've got that New York tension. When I talk to my people and I talk to everyone it's like, “You've gotta do something already.” And you guys like fun, there's a ball pit or whatever in the office. Am I right? You go “we need a, we're gonna create a new office. Let's have a bowling alley in it and a place to shoot.” That's the truth. Russell: It is the truth. It's going to be amazing. Andrew: Does he also tell you, “We need to do something this weekend. Date night, it's a secret.”? Russell: Maybe I need to do more than that, huh. Andrew: Yes, does he use persuasion techniques on you? Russell: It doesn't work on her. Andrew: No. Russell: She's the only person I can't persuade. It's amazing. My powers are useless against my wife. It's unfortunate. Andrew: Do you actually use them, or when it comes to the house you go, “come on, I'm tired already, just…”? Russell: I tried to do something today and she was like, “That was the worst sales pitch ever.” I'm like, “Dang it. Alright, I'll try again.” Andrew: Hey Siri, text my wife “I've got plans for tomorrow night. So good, Russell just told me about it. I'll tell you later. Secret.” Period, send. Russell: That's amazing. Andrew: Wowee. Does anybody know how I can get a babysitter here. {Audience speaking indistinctly} Andrew: They're a little too eager to spend time with my kids. Thank you. Alright, I said I would take a few more questions. I know we're almost out of time here. Who was it, it was someone on the right here that was especially, you looked, uh yeah you, who just pointed behind you. Audience Member: Hi, okay, Russell I've been in your world since about 2016.. Andrew: Hang on a second, who the, I'm sorry to curse, but who the f**k comes to a software event and goes, “I've been in your world.”? This is amazing about you. I'm in San Francisco, there's nobody that goes, “I'm so glad I've been in the hubspot world.” It doesn't work that way. I'm sorry, I had to interrupt. Okay. I've been in your world. He's selling you software, you're in his world. Sorry. Audience member: You have to listen to his podcast, it's a.. Andrew: I've listened to his podcast. It's just him talking. Audience Member: He talks about it, it's a universe. He creates a universe. Andrew: You know what, here's the thing that blew my mind. I thought it was him in a professional studio, I saw him in San Francisco, he's talking into the voice recorder on his phone. Okay, yeah. I gotta feeling that Russell's going to go, at some point, “Religion is just an info product. I think I could do a better job here.” Alright, yeah. Audience Member: okay, I entered the Clickfunnels universe in 2016 and since that time, I came in with a lot of hopes and a lot of, it was just a really exciting experience to have you break down the marketing, you really simplified it right. So I see that, I'm an ambassador for the one comma club challenge right now, and people are coming in with such high hopes and such tremendous faith and trust in you. And I have a friends that I brought into it and everything and they're coming in, just like, they're really staking a lot on how they've persuaded to join your universe. Sorry, universe is the wrong word. But from that, I guess the question is, there's a few things. I think a lot of people are afraid of that type of responsibility in the products that they're delivering, and of course there is a tremendous failure rate of people who don't get what they're persuaded in. So there's a lot of magnification on the two comma club, and the people there that are the successes, but the question that I have is, the responsibility that you feel for that, I feel that you feel the responsibility because you're constantly looking for new ways to simplify, bring in new coaches, bring in the new team, make products and offers that are completely irresistible. Truthfully, I went to Funnel Hacking Live, I'm not spending any money, 20 thousand dollars later. I mean it was truthfully so irresistible, but you've crafted such unique things in an effort to truly serve that client and really get them to the place that they're looking to go. So I'm not sure if the question is coming out, but there's a lot of responsibility that all these bright eyed, bushy tailed you know, wannabe marketers are coming in really truthfully feeling the genuine just truth that you're telling them, but then there's a big crash and burn rate too, which is normal in that space. I'm not sure what the question is. Andrew: Congratulations  to the people in the two comma club, what about the people in the no comma club. What do you feel is a sense of obligation to the people who aren't yet there? What do you feel about that? Russell: Is that the question? Andrew: Is that right? Audience member: I guess the question is, there's two parts, one is the responsibility that other people are feeling, the fear that they're feeling to put something out there because they're afraid of a failure rate. So just like, Whitney over there was talking about, she's got those fears. So there's normal fears that come along with that, so how you deal with that, in that it's not because of lack of delivery on your end, but there's still people who are spending tremendous amounts of money, or small amounts of money that just aren't getting what it is. So it's really about your internal feelings about that topic. Russell: It's a good question. There's a lot of different ways I could answer it. I'm trying to think, for me it's a big reason I do have a con stripe, because I do feel like I have a huge obligation to people who sign up for our stuff. So I'm always thinking, how do we simplify this, how do we simplify it? What's the best way to do it? What's the thing? But that's also what creates innovation right. It creates the ideas, it's that, how do we serve these people better? How do we serve them better? Probably the best analogy, in fact, Brandon over here was working on a video that he sent me last night, that I had a chance to watch, it was really cool. We had Sean Stephenson speak at the second Funnel Hacking Live. Was anyone there for that one? A couple of you guys. Sean Stephenson, if you know him, is the 3 foot giant. He's this little dude in a wheel chair, one of the coolest humans on earth. And he told this story, it was funny because man, I had another emotional connection watching it last night actually, watching it. And he talked about stories like, “How many of you guys here are upset because you got 17 followers on Facebook and you've got 13 likes on your YouTube video, and you're pissed because of all this stuff.” And I think of a lot things that way. “I'm trying this thing, I'm not a millionaire yet, I'm not making any money, blah, blah, blah.” And they're upset about that right. And what Sean said, he's like, “Do you know how they choose who they're going to save when a helicopter is flying into an ocean and there's a boat that's wrecked with all these people. Guess how they choose who they're going to save?” and he said, “What happens is the helicopter drivers, they fly over there and go down to the people, going to save them, and guess who they save, they save the people who are swimming towards you.” He says, “That's how you do it. If you try to save everyone, it will drown you, it'll drown the boat, and everybody dies. But you save the people who are swimming toward you.” And then he came back and said, “Those 17 likes on your video, those are the 17 people who are swimming towards you. You have to understand that.” So for me it's like, we talk about the money because that gets people inspired, but when it all comes down, the really internal belief, no one really cares about the money. They want the feeling of the connection and the help and they want to change the world. They have their thing, and so it's like, we talk about the money because it gets people excited, but I don't know anybody who that's the real reason why they're in business. They're in because they want, they want to help those people that are coming towards them. So you notice when you get deeper into the culture, it's not just money, money, money, money. It's how do you serve, how do you impact, how do you change the world, how can you get your message clearer, how can you do those things? And when you shift from the money to that, then the money starts magically coming. So for me, it's just like how do we get more people thinking that way more often. I don't know if that's the right answer or if that helps at all, but it is definitely something I feel a big obligation for but I also feel like I'm super grateful for the people who are willing, I'm grateful to Don Lepre, spent all that money doing the infomercial on that thing. And I didn't implement it back then, when I was 14, right. I'm grateful to the next guy who re-inspired me and I bought the thing and didn't do anything and then next person and all those things, because eventually it stuck. So for me, it's like I'm going to keep creating offers and keep doing cool things, and trying to inspire people because it might not be the first or the second or the fifth, but eventually if I keep being consistent on my side, it's going to keep getting it and eventually the right people, those who actually have something they want to share, something they actually care about what they're doing will figure out the way. And we're just going to keep trailblazing and trying to do our best to make a path that they can all follow. So that's kind of how I look at it. Andrew: Great question. Let's close it out with one more. Yes. Dave did you find someone, because I just found someone right here. Why don't we do two more then? Since you found one and I found one. What's your name? Sorry, Parker? Parker. Go next. There we go, let's go to Parker next and we'll close it out with him. Parker: Alright, so the biggest question I have for you Russell is, I've seen you guys' amazing group you guys have at Clickfunnels, and every time I go in your guys' office it's nothing but excitement, energy, and not only you don't have to inspire your workers to work for you. They come there excited and hearing your amazing stories that John and Brent had of, they stayed with you for all this time and you pushed them and they pushed you and there's this amazing cycle. I'm curious as far as, because I want to have an amazing group like that one too so I can affect the world the same way that you have, and even do better than you did. And that's a completely admiration thing, that's I don't know. Dave: Cut from the same cloth here. Russell: That's his dad. Dave's son. Andrew: Oh got it. That makes sense. Parker: The question I have for you is, how do you find those people? Is it nothing but like a whittling out process or do you see these characteristics already in the people that you have? Andrew: One sec, how old are you? Parker: I'm 20 years old. Andrew: 20 years old and you admire your dad and the guy that he works with so much that you want to not just be like him, but be more like him? Can you take of my kid tonight? Sorry, that's amazing. Does your dad come home with this energy like this energy like, “We're going to capture the world. This is what we're going to do.” Parker: it is the funniest thing. Oh my gosh. Every way you see him online, social media, whatever the heck it is, it's exactly the same way he is at home. When you see him on the tv talking about like, “Oh this is…” or when you interviewed him. Andrew: I've watched his podcast, I see that thing. {Crosstalk} Parker: you know as much as I do then. Andrew: What did he motivate you to, like to sell as a kid, or to upsell as a kid. Parker: So he would like talk to us like he was a sales person basically, in the aspect of he talks about things as far as, this person did a terrible job at selling. They could have done this, this, this and this.” And we're like 10 years old, I think at the time, I think. I don't know. It's more of a recent change since he joined clickfunnels and he's got this amazing excitement and energy. It's an amazing thing and I wish to have to people like my dad when I become a, when I start to do my own thing. Andrew: It is contagious isn't it? Parker: yeah, it totally is. Andrew: And I've been watching, what's this new Vlog that you've got. It's on Russell, it's on Russell Brunson's YouTube channel right? I'm at the end of it going, “Hell yeah, why am I taking a shower now. I gotta go, I got stuff to do.” Right. These guys are out there taking over San Francisco, that's my city. So I guess you're feeling the same way at home. Now, he's there twice, he suddenly owns a place. So your question was…? Parker: My question was basically, how do you find these amazing people to work, not only for you, but with you and to help you accomplish your dream? Is it whittling out process or it you have innate ability to find people? Russell: So as you were saying that I started thinking, I'm thinking about the partners on our team, who none of them came through like a help wanted site. None of them came through like, Brent went to church with me and he showed up every single week, every single month, he was my home teacher and showed up every single month consistently and we became friends and we did stuff together. John married my cousin. We were on the boat in the middle of the lake and he pitched me on a network marketer opportunity and I was like, I love this guy. And then I pitched him back and we just, and it was amazing. And then Dave, we were at an event like this and we had a signup sheet if you wanted to take the speakers out to dinner and Dave ran back and signed up every single line under mine. So I went to every single meal with him for 3 days. I think it's just, I think a big part of it, I think most entrepreneurs can't build a team because they're waiting to build the team. And I think for me, I didn't know what I was doing so I just started running, and what happens when you're moving forward and motion is happening, people get attracted to that. And some people will come for bad reasons and they'll leave, and I've been taken advantage of multiple times, things like that will happen, but the right people will stick around. But it's all about, it's the motion right. That's what people are attracted to. If something's happening. I don't know what's happening, but I want to be on that train and they start coming. So I think it's taking the initiative of “Okay, I'm going to start running and I have no idea if anyone's going to follow me ever. But If I do this and I keep doing it consistently then people will.” And you know, it's been a consistency thing. I'm 15 years into this business now, 8000 funnels deep. But it's a consistency, and when you do that and you're consistent, then the right people will just start coming into your life. But not waiting for them initially. If I would have waited to build my team initially, we wouldn't have a team. Everyone we met was like in the, as we were having motion, the right people started showing up. Andrew: Alright. Thanks. Speaking of, thank you. How many people here are actually at Clickfunnels, if you work at Clickfunnels. Can you guys stand up if you work at Clickfunnels. There you go. I feel like at the end of this everyone's going to want to go and meet Russell. Everyone's going to want to go and mob him. And he's not that social, number one. Number two, I feel like you're going to pass up these fan-freaking-tastic conversations, I've gotten to know the people who work here a lot really well in preparation for this, I really urge you to see the guys, the people who are wearing these t-shirts. Get to know them. Push them into a corner, understand what's working for them. And really, you're fantastic people, thanks so much for helping me do this. And thank you for having me on here. I really appreciate you being open, being willing to let me take this anywhere. You said, “I understand what Andrew is trying to do. He's trying to figure this out. I'm going to let him run with it and let him make the magic happen.” And I think we made a lot of magic happen. Thanks so much for having me here. Russell: Yeah man, it was amazing. Andrew: Thank you all for coming, I'm looking forward to meeting every one of you. Thanks.

Ross continues answering Andrew's questions with far reaching topics including how the role of Financial Planner has evolved over time, how much you should save/invest toward your future, Ross's core curriculum for financial education, why budgeting is key and more. It's a lot of information, however, his five cents is priceless. To connect with Ross find him at https://www.rosskrause.com/.

Stephen Olyniuk Interviewer: So in today's podcast, we'd like to welcome Andrew Ferris. He's the development officer and program director for the children's miracle network. So, welcome! Andrew: Thank you. Good to be here. Interviewer: And one of my first questions is gonna be- tell us a little bit about yourself, Andrew, and how you became involved with the Children's Miracle Network. Andrew: Sure, yeah. Kind of an interesting path how I got to where I am today. So just going all the way back to university, it's kind of when I got first introduced to the child health sector. So, throughout university, I worked as a one-on-one specialist with kids across Manitoba. So I would essentially go on camps across Manitoba and work alongside a child with autism to kind of make sure that they're integrated into the programming stuff. So that's kind of how I got introduced to child health, kind of starting my passion there. But I did a BA in Psychology, and I graduated a University. Got a job in the corporate world. And learned some valuable things, but kind of didn't really feel the passion was there. So I did some research on what options I had for post graduate education. And I actually found this non-profit management, in the business development program for non-profit charity program out in Toronto. And essentially, I applied to it. And within a month, I was pretty much packing my bags and moving out to Toronto. So when I got to Toronto, I completed my program in non-profit management and business development for non-profits and charities. And then I end up getting a job at SickKids, which is a children's hospital in Toronto. And I did some work in the corporate partnerships department. And then I was kind of faced with the difficult decision of: “Do I wanna stay in Toronto or do I wanna come home, bringing what I learned in Toronto back to my home community?” And ultimately, I decided to come back to Winnipeg, just because… I mean, I love it here. It's my home. My friends and family are here. And one of the main reasons why I went to do that non-profit management program was really to improve my home community. So essentially, made the decision to leave all the excitement in Toronto and come back to Winnipeg. And from there, I got a job at Global Philanthropic, which is one of Canada's largest non-profit consulting firms. So we worked alongside charities in Winnipeg, (?), Marymount. And the children's hospital is also one of our clients. And it was through there, I kind of linked with up with the CEO there. And he brought forth this job for me. And I obviously accepted it because I just kind of had that passion for children health at the beginning. And I always did wanna work at a children's hospital. So it was pretty much a no brainer for me. So that's what brought me here today. And I've been directing the Children's Miracle Network program since July of last year. So I'm just over a year now. Interviewer: And throughout the time we've spent together, I find you're very passionate about it. I think you're a great fit. Andrew: I would like to think so! Let's hope. Interviewer: Exactly. So, for people that maybe don't know that Remax has a partnership with the Children's Miracle Network (CMN). And some agents choose to take part, and some don't. So we choose to take part. And we make a donation with every donation that's sold or someone purchased with us. So can you tell us maybe a little bit about the partnership between the CMN and Remax? Andrew: Sure. Let me just kind of explain what CMN is, so people who don't know- know. So essentially, the CMN is a large non-profit organization that operates in Canada and the United States. And their main mandate is to raise critical funds to support specialized equipment for their local children's hospitals. So each state, each province has a children's miracle network hospital. S ours would be the children's hospital in (?). And the CMN has a large portfolio of corporate partners, such as Remax, who each have specialized programs, funding campaigns, that are designed to raise money in support of their local children's hospital. And, I mean, the main mandate is that if we change the health of children, we change the health of the world. We change the health of children in Canada, we change the health future of Canada. So that's really the core of CMN. And in terms of our partnership with Remax, it's actually one of the longest standing partnerships in the CMN. So, it's been operating since 1992. And like you said, the Remax agents have the option to donate certain proceeds from each sale towards the CMN, which goes directly to our local children's hospital and all the local children of Manitoba. So, it's an exclusive program to Remax. And the impact is huge. And it's just a great way that Remax agents are able to engage with our children' hospital. Interviewer: Wonderful, wonderful. And then, you know, what kind of success has the partnership seen in Canada? Andrew: It has seen immense success. So, just in terms of numbers, we have over 7k real estate agents in Canada that are taking part in this program. And in 2019 alone, I believe over 7.5 million had been raised. Just in 2019 in Canada. Interviewer: Wow. Andrew: And that goes, again, directly to the local children's hospital. So, I mean, that's immense impact right there. It's huge. Interviewer: Ok. So that kind of answered my next question to you. What does it mean to the children's hospital to have a community partner and support, such as Remax? Andrew: It means everything. I mean, just in current times with Covid, community partners such as Remax are really the ones that our children's hospitals have relied on. I mean, with Covid, a lot of events, a lot of fundraising things have had to be cancelled. That brings in quite a lot of revenue for the children's hospital. So it's having, our community partners like Remax, that continue these campaigns through Covid, that really do pull us through these tough times. And, you know, our hospital over 130k kids that come through our door every year. And Covid or not, that's happening. You know, that doesn't change. So having the community support, our ups and downs of the economy, whatever, it's just incredibly crucial for us. Interviewer: So then, in 2020, what will money be raised… Like the money that's raised by the Miracle Home Program, what will it be supporting? Andrew: Sure. Every year, through the Remax program, there's kind of 3 pillars that we look to raise money for. So first is revolutionizing treatment and care. Second is for frontline pediatric education and training. And the third is creating healing environments. And for this year, we really focused on that third pillar of creating healing environments. So money raised is really going towards the child life department. Which, at its core, essentially exists to make sure that children and their families have the best possible experience within the children's hospital. Especially when they have to have a long stay. So, the child health department has specialized child health. Our child life specialist who are trained specifically to make sure that these kids get the best care, best… They're in their mental state best as they can be, given the tough times. So some programs of the child life include musical therapy, clown therapy. They have specialized play places. They have a children's hospital TV station that gets aired all throughout the children's hospitals. So again, it's just really meant to make sure that these kids have a positive experience with the hospital. It's very tough for them to be in the hospital. I mean, it's not fun. And it's equally stressful for the parents as well to have a kid in the hospital. And with Covid, too, it's really made things difficult in terms of visitations. So, we've had lots of kids that haven't been able to visit all their family members. And that's very tough for them. And the child department really gets into gear and distracts them and makes them as happy as possible. So that's really the main focus of funds from the Miracle Home Program this year, which again, is incredibly incredibly crucial and very timely with Covid and everything. Interviewer: Wonderful, wonderful organization from the events that we've been out to. And you see the kids light up when they see Doctor Goodbear. Andrew: Yeah. Doctor Goodbear's a staple. He's been around for years, and he's not going anywhere. Interviewer: And I imagine that with Covid that it's more difficult for visits like that to happen, and that they probably don't happen is my guess. So I'm just wondering do they, has that been happening with the television station that they have? Or anything like that that happens? Andrew: So yeah. Like you said, it's been difficult. So we've had to kind of be creative with how the kids are engaged. And the children's hospital TV station is one way that we can kind of get Goodbear in there and use it as a way to kind of make things happy and distract them from the outside world. And how they're not usually able to visit everybody they would be able to. Interviewer: Right. So, how do Remax agents get involved in the Miracle Home Program if they wanted to? Andrew: So it's pretty easy. I mean, every Remax agent is a broker manager. And they would have all the information on how to sign up. So it's very easy. Essentially, they would have that information. You just fill out a quick form and submit it, and you're pretty much good to go. I also encourage any Remax agent in Manitoba to reach out to me as well, just with any questions. You know, maybe I'll get you to share my content information later as well. Interviewer: Absolutely. Andrew: It's a very quick process, really easy. And I'm always happy to answer questions on how to sign up. Interviewer: Ok, great. So, I'd like to lighten things up a little bit towards the end of the podcast and just find out a little bit more about you. What are some of your favorite things? What is your favorite food? Andrew: Favorite food? That's a tough one because I like food a lot. And I'm gonna base it most off of what I order most on Scubidicious, and I think that would be sushi. Interviewer: Sushi? Andrew: Yeah, that would be my number one. Close second would be any type of pasta. Interviewer: Alright. Is there a plug for any sushi restaurants? Andrew: Ok. I'm gonna give you Yujuro on (?) plug. I'll give them a plug for sure for my sushi. That's if I'm eating in. If I'm not eating in, if I'm eating the order, if I'm ordering it, I usually go to walk-on court. Those are my go-to's. Interviewer: Awesome! I'll have to check them out. Andrew: You should. Yeah, you should. Especially Yujuro. I'll say they're good. They know what they're doing! Interviewer: Ok, great. How about favorite movie? Do you have… Andrew: Favorite movie… I would have to say Wolf of Wallstreet. It's a ride. It is a ride. A little bit of long (?), but it's one of my favorite movies. And I've watched it at least 5 times, it's so entertaining. I love Leonardo DiCaprio. He's one of my favorite actors. Interviewer: Yeah. I'd have to agree, he's a magnificent actor. Andrew: Yeah, I almost like every single movie of his. He kills it. Interviewer: And hobbies. Do you have a favorite hobby? Andrew: Favorite hobby? Well, it's kind of seasonal. So in the like nice months, I love hiking. So hiking and walking around in the outdoors. The big thing, like fishing, hiking. I spend time outdoor swimming. That's my main thing. In the winter months, kind of hunker down a little bit. But I like to go skating. I play drums. So I play drums here and there as well. And listen to a lot of music. And obviously watch Netflix and all of that fun stuff. I like to be very social too. So lots of craft breweries. And for food, I told you that. Interviewer: Awesome. You, one of the things you just mentioned, hiking there. Is there any trail that you've been on recently that… Andrew: Oh, man. So I did my Rise of Manitoba today. So I pretty much did, I think I did around 10 or 11 hiking trails in (?) this year. And my favorite would have to be Hudlake trail. Interviewer: Why favorite? Andrew: It's beautiful! I love that one. Second maybe McGillbert Falls is nice. But I don't know, I think (?) trails are my favorite. It's a nice long hike. Whole portions along the lake and it's just insane. And it's pretty challenging too. There's some nice challenging parts which I love. Interviewer: For the past two years, Alicia and I have been doing kind of a “explore Manitoba” every Wednesday. We take the afternoon off and we head out somewhere and we'll do a little post about it. And on social media, that's the thing that gets the most attention. Any time we're out, someone says, “”Hey, we're going to this weekend?” And Hudlake is one of our favorite trails. McGillbert Falls is on our list. We haven't made it through yet, but we'll do that one pretty shortly. And one that's really unique is the devil's punchboal. Andrew: Oh wow! Interviewer: A little bit of desert in the middle of Manitoba. Andrew: It does not feel like Manitoba. I love that. Interviewer: Nope! Andrew: Not at all. And you know, I think there's one… I mean, there's minimal positives of covid. But one, I think for me, and for a lot of other people, is that they've explored Manitoba a little bit more. I mean, not necessarily by choice. But it's kind of forced people to explore their own backyard a little bit more. And I know I have, more than usual, because some days you'll be travelling to other places. But I think people are kind of like learning to appreciate Manitoba a little bit more. And there's so many beautiful spots to go. So, that's awesome! Interviewer: Yeah, you've just got to dress for the winters and you can find beautiful things to do in the wintertime too. Andrew: I know. I'm not really ready, but it is what it is. Interviewer: And one of the things you mentioned- music and drumming. So do you have a favorite type of music or musician? Andrew: Favorite musician? I would have to say Sitting Color would have to be my favorite artist. Music? I won't say I like everything. I respect pretty much every genre. I mean, for me, for drumming I really like some beats and rhythm. So, I mean, you can find that in any music. So I really can't say I would favor genres, just because I respect lots of music. But yes, let's say Sitting Color. In terms of the 90s, I'd say Oasis would be my favorite band. The 90s and… Yeah, I like everything! I don't know. Interviewer: How long have you been drumming? Andrew: Since I was in grade 2. So a long time! It was one of my favorite… Actually, my first word was actually “gums.” And I meant to say “drums.” Interviewer: There you go! Andrew: I was talking about drums. Interviewer: You were the kid that the parents “loved.” You made lots of noise. Andrew: Oh yes! I certainly did. I still remember getting my first drum set. I don't even know how they dealt with that. I really don't. Interviewer: Great. Do you have a favorite day of the week? Andrew: Thursday. I like Thursdays. I think it's because you have the anticipation of Friday being tomorrow, and I don't know… I just feel like I get the most productive on Thursdays. Getting ahead, getting everything done for the weekend. And getting excited for the weekend before. So I'm gonna go for Thursdays. Interviewer: Alright. That's the way it is. Sometimes when you have a deadline or something that gives you that extra push. Andrew: Exactly! I feel like Thursdays- that's my day. That's my day. Interviewer: My final question. What would you say you're most excited about right now? Andrew: Right now? Sounds a little bit weird, but I ordered a new table from (?). Table and chairs. Dining room table. So I'm supposed to be getting that tomorrow, so I'm a bit excited about that. I know it sounds weird, but I like getting stuff in the mail. So I'm excited for that. I'm also really excited for… I live on the river. So I'm really excited for that to freeze over. Because I'm really really excited to… Hopefully, this year, the trail will be open. The skiing trail. Skiing down the (?) for some beers. Interviewer: Awesome! Great. You have to send me a picture of your table when it's all set it. I'd love to see it. Andrew: I'll send you a selfie with my new table. Interviewer: Sure, great. Alright Andrew, I really wanna thank you for coming on and doing this with us. And we wish you all the best. And I hope that the CMN just continues to rise and be successful. Andrew: Awesome! Yeah, thanks Stephen. And again, thank you for all of your work. You're also personally involved with the Children Miracle Home program and working with us as well. So, thank you. And I thank everybody at Remax for continuing all the awesome support for the hospital. Interviewer: Will do! You have yourself a wonderful day, sir! Andrew: You too! Have a good one! Interviewer: Bye!   Andrew Ferris Development Officer & Program Director, CMN Children's Hospital Foundation of MB 204-470-8928   Stephen Olyniuk Alicia Olyniuk stephen@teamolyniuk.com alicia@teamolyniuk.com (204)981-2009 (204)3924262 www.teamolyniuk.com Turning Realty into Reality #realestatewinnipeg #realestatemanitoba

My guest today is percussionist, Tony Azzopardi.   Tony grew up in Sydney, the youngest of 15 children with his mother and father coming from Malta.    Music was always in the family with Tony's first band being the family band called Africa, with his brother Marz, the drummer of the band, being particularly influential to Tony's early development as a musician, and as a percussionist.   These were the early to mid 70s. Tony has been a professional musician ever since, having played with live or recorded with the a lot of the best including Doug Parkinson, Marcia Hines, Roger Frampton, Jenny Morris, Mark Hunter , Andrew Oh, Richard Clapton, Gina Jeffries, Jeff Duff, Tina Arena, Ian Moss, Barry Leef and many others.   Tony was also the house band percussionist for Australian Idol.    In an effort to pull back a bit from constant touring and gigging, Tony and his friend created DRUMBEAT, an interactive drums and percussion show that would tour Australian schools.    In 2011, Tony got very ill with cancer. Yet during treatment, he stilled went out and gigged.    After beating that cancer, it was time for a change so he packed up and moved out of Sydney. He now spends his days on his farm in the hunter region of NSW, and he still plays everyday.   So without further ardue,  Ladies and gentleman, please give it up for Tony Azzopardi.   This conversation was recorded 18/08/2020.   For more info on Tony: Facebook Instagram ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------   Click here to securely donate or tip The Gig Life Podcast via PayPal. Your support is very much appreciated. Thank you. The Gig Life Podcast: Website Instagram Facebook  Twitter  

If you want to keep up with what’s going on in the eCommerce industry, the best thing to do is to go straight to the source and ask. But where can you find a group of eCommerce business owners openly talking about their pain points, sharing tips about how they grow their businesses, and combining their knowledge to solve problems together?  Does such a mecca exist?  Andrew Youderian is here to tell you that it does. Andrew is the founder of eCommerce Fuel, and on this episode of Up Next in Commerce, he discusses how he built a community of more than 1,000 seven-figure eCommerce business owners, plus he shares all of the insights he’s gathered along the way. From questions about Amazon, to a crash course in community-building, to the single metric he says should guide eCommerce businesses today… Andrew divulges some of the industry’s best-kept secrets and more in today’s interview.  Key Takeaways: The Value of Selective Community Building: A community is only as strong as the people in it. Together, a community can deliver ideas, content, and capital to other members who would not be able to find those things on their own. But to ensure that all members are receiving value, it is important to be selective about the acceptance process.  Finding Your Way Through The Amazon: “If I'm selling to wholesalers, should I let them sell on Amazon?” “How do I control my brand identity on Amazon?” These questions and more are plaguing the industry and at eCommerce Fuel, the community is gathering to come up with answers, including how to capitalize on the recent delays in shipping Amazon has seen. Meaty Metrics: While most owners will point to revenue as the main metric to judge success, it is widely believed that revenue is one of the least important metrics when judging the health and long-term viability of a business. There are other metrics that are more telling, including repeat purchase rate, and one other that gets very little fanfare but could change the course of your business: price per visitor. For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length. --- Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce --- Transcript: Stephanie: Welcome back to Up Next in Commerce, this is your host Stephanie Postles and today we're joined by Andrew Youderian, the founder of eCommerceFuel. Andrew, welcome. Andrew: Hey, thanks Stephanie. I appreciate you having me on. Stephanie: So, is a weird feeling a podcaster being interviewed by a podcaster? What are your thoughts right now? Andrew: I think it's great. You have to do all the work and I can just sit back and relax. Well, unless you send some really pointed questions my way, so maybe I shouldn't be relaxed, so we'll see. Stephanie: Oh, yeah. I don't know. Andrew: But, yeah- Stephanie: You might have to sit up straight and get ready, this might be intense. Andrew: This may be, I need to stop slouching here. But no, it's good. Good to be on, it's fun to be on the other side of the mic for a change. Stephanie: So, I want to dive into your company eCommerce Fuel. I looked at it and it seems awesome. It seems like you have gathered so many insights from this company that you've built all around eCommerce, but I want to hear in your words what is eCommerce Fuel? Andrew: At eCommerce Fuel we provide community content and capital to seven figure plus store owners, and so we do that through an online form which is really the heartbeat of our community. We've got over 1,000 vetted store owners, and the idea was really just get a lot of people together that are doing this day in and day out, that we're running seven... our average store owner is probably doing three or four million dollars a year with their business, so that's community aspect. We also do a big event every year for our community through content, like you said I'm a podcaster. I've been doing the eCommerce Fuel podcast for I think it's about seven years now, which is crazy. Stephanie: Wow. Andrew: And then we have a capital arm as well where we invest in promising eCommerce businesses. We have 20 investors that have a lot of similar experience or world class experts, everything from Facebook marketing to email marketing to product design and so we invest in companies that we think are interesting, so that's what we do at eCommerceFuel. Stephanie: That's such a cool model. So, for you podcast I think I saw you had over 300 episodes. Andrew: Yeah. I think, actually I think we're... yes, we do. I've been, like I said, been doing it since July 2013. Yeah, been going at it for awhile. It's been fun. Stephanie: Yeah, that was really cool to look at your backlog and the guests that you've had on. So, your business models' really interesting how you have a capital arm and community, I mean two things that I would say are very hot right now. Everyone is always thinking about of course being investors, I mean at least here in Silicon Valley that's everyone's dream it seems like. And then building up a community is something that we've heard a lot of guests mention on the show, like how to properly build a community. What was your idea behind starting this business and having those different arms of the business? Andrew: They came in stages, so in a nutshell, left the corporate world and got my teeth in eCommerce for starting in 2008 on a couple different eCommerce businesses and built those up. So, I had a sense of this space and nobody was talking about eCommerce unless it was like from a Home Depot or like a Lowe's, like a, you know, Fortune 500 style? Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Andrew: And so I started writing about what it's like to grow an eCommerce business for a small team or a single founder and developed a little bit of a following on the blog, started podcasting, and then from there that kind of just naturally led to me meeting all these great people and I thought what if we got a bunch of people in a community together that had some kind of vetting thresholds and just made sure everyone had some level of experience? And that launched the community and built that up over time and then the capital arm is fairly recent, really recent in fact, it's about five or six months old. That just came as a natural extension of seeing all these interesting entrepreneurs that hopefully we'd built some trust and report with, or that people knew about us from the time running the business. And then also just a really great group of investors who also had not just money, but a lot of in the trenches experience and advice to lend, so it kind of came in stages. Stephanie: Yeah, that's really cool. To start with the community aspect, what are the vetting procedures that people have to go through? How do you know who to bring in to keep it a high quality community? Because I think that's biggest problem when you're getting in all these Facebook groups or communities, you're like, "Oh my gosh, just everyone's in here and I'm actually not learning anything." So, what does it look like to get into your community? Andrew: Yeah, you're right. I mean, if I could only do one thing well in a community it would be bring the right people into it. So, our guidelines are a little nuanced but you need to be operating a seven figure business. If you have a very proprietary product that you've made from scratch or that is a little harder to make sometimes we'll take people in kind of the mid to high six figure range. If you're selling just on Amazon usually we require a little bit more than that, so that's on the revenue threshold sides. Andrew: So, we keep it no major SaaS vendors, and then for service providers we're really careful. I'd probably say only 10% of our applicants that we accept are service providers and they need to be recommended by an existing member because you can... An amazing email marketing expert that knows the space, that is respectful of people and isn't going to come in at a hard pitch and is going to build relationships the right way through adding value, is a huge asset. But we want to make sure those are the type of people we have and not people who are just trying to sign somebody up on the first day, so. Stephanie: Yeah, that's really important. How many people are in your community now? Andrew: We have about 1,100 members in the community. Stephanie: Okay. How did you go about building that up? What is your method of bringing new people into the community? How do you get in front of people and even tell them about eCommerceFuel? Andrew: Community building's interesting. You've got this chicken and an egg problem, right? Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Andrew: And the way that I did it was when I was blogging and podcasting early on about eCommerce, just over that probably 12 month period really focus on not trying to monetize the business or anything, just trying to build authority, get a little bit of a reputation, and connect with people. Over the course of a year, just naturally, organically, met about 100 to 150 really interesting people. And any time I did, I'd just put a little tag on them in gmail and say, "Community seed member." Stephanie: Oh. Andrew: So, a year in a had this list of 150 people and I reached out to them and said, "Here's what I'm doing. I'm starting a community, are you interested?" And then over the course of about 30 to 45 days I dripped in, I added, about four or five people a day. I'd bring them in, I'd introduce them, I'd introduce them to other people, I'd ask them questions, kickstart discussions, and so it gradually grew. I didn't just drop everyone in at once, and it took about like 45 days but we had a bit of a community at that point. And then from there I had over the last year built up some traffic to the website, was able to put up a page that said, "Hey, here's the community. You can join," and that gave us kind of... because you need both things, right? Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Andrew: Like in community you have to have new people come in because you always have a drop off even in the most healthy. So, from it was able to kind of, with a lot of work, get to self sustaining within probably 18 to 24 months, so. Stephanie: Wow. Yeah, that's great. And it is a paid community? Andrew: It is, yes. It's a paid community, so it's... yeah, it is. It's $99 a month. Stephanie: That also helps... Okay, yeah. I'm sure that also helps with quality and bringing in people who are serious and really want to learn and contribute to get their monies worth. Andrew: Oh, it helps so much. I mean, for a couple reasons why. We have, just like you said, on the vetting side, yeah, it shows that people are actually serious about this. The other nice thing is it gives us the resources to do things like hire a real community manager. We have someone full time that their whole job is just to vet people to make sure that if people have questions that don't get answered they can move them to the right people. It let's us invest in technology, we've probably poured six figures plus into the custom tech for the community, so yeah, it makes it a lot easier. Stephanie: Yeah, that's really cool. When it comes to keeping the community engaged, because to me that's one of the biggest things to make sure people keep renewing their membership and they want to check in everyday and see what's new and see who's talking, how do you go about keeping them engaged? And maybe what have you seen works and what didn't work? Like any tests that you've done where you're like, "We've tried this and this failed," or, "We tried this and this really increased engagement a lot and helped keep it going?" Andrew: I think the best thing you can do, two things, the first thing is to actually have discussion and content that are highly relevant to what people are doing day in and day out. So, again, kind of going back, if you get the right people in the same room that's 80-90% of the battle. From that point, setting up custom notifications is really important. So, some of the custom tech that we've talked about, when people sign up we don't just blast them with every single discussion that pops up, that's crazy, right? They'd just drowned in a fire house because we have like 5,000 comments every months in there. But we do try to figure out like, hey, what are you an expert in and what are interested in learning about? And then when they join we tailor their notifications to try to create the highest level of a signal to noise ratio possible, and so that's another thing. The third thing is just maintaining a really respectful environment, like we have a pretty strict no jerks rule. I probably shouldn't say this, but I get a lot of pleasure out of throwing people who are just downright disrespectful and just, you know, kind of just generally unpleasant out of our community because they're horrible. Stephanie: Yeah, good. Boot them. Andrew: And also non-solicitation. We kind of have a one strike, one warning, and then if you do it again you're out. So, we don't put up with pitches, you know, if people are hard pitching stuff they're out. So, I think those are the big things that help with maintaining an active community where people keep coming back to. Stephanie: Yeah, those are such good points and it's not only applicable to your business but even thinking about any eCommerce business of how to build up... I mean, everyone talks about building these communities but how do you actually make it helpful and personalize it to people in a way that people want to engage on your social media post or they want to engage on your blog or tag themselves wherever they're in your clothing or with your mug or whatever. So, I think these lessons actually can apply across industries as well and not just upon building a community like you're doing. Andrew: Yeah. Community building, it's interesting, it's kind of like a brand. It is a brand. It's insanely hard to get up and running, like the amount of time and energy and love and relational just work that you need to put in, I don't say it in a bad way, but just building relationships takes a tremendous amount of work. It takes a ton of time, just like building a brand. But it's insanely defensible, I mean, if you're willing to put in that, you know, if you have a multi year approach. You can't steal people's friends, right? Stephanie: Yeah. Andrew: And that's what happens, whether you're building a community for your brand or kind of a micro niche community like this for eCommerceFuel, is people come in and they stay because they get value and they stick around for a couple months but then they come to an event, they connect with people via PM, and then build genuine friends. I don't know, you'd be hard pressed to tear me away from my good friends and it's really defensible in that department, so. Stephanie: Yeah, I agree. I love that. So, you probably get a lot of really good insights into the world of eCommerce and where things are headed just by some of the questions that some of the members in your community are asking each other, and I wanted to know what kind of top questions do you see occurring right now where it's like quite a few people are asking the same type of question or these same things keep popping up? Andrew: Yeah. Let's start with the 500 pound gorilla in the eCommerce space, and that's Amazon. Some of the questions I think people are asking on there is how do I... I'll just go through a handful of them and then maybe we can talk about ones that are most interesting to you. If I'm selling to wholesalers, should I let them sell on Amazon? How do I control my brand identity on Amazon? There's some interesting popping up right now about how... I don't know if you've noticed this, but Amazon Prime used to be for awhile it was free shipping, then it was two day, and it was one day, and now it's like- Stephanie: Yeah. Andrew: ... three to five days if you're lucky depending on where you live. Stephanie: Yeah, I did notice that and I was like, "What's happening here? Usually I can get my stuff for my son in like a day and now it's taking a week." Andrew: Yeah. It's kind of crazy, and of course because of just with COVID eCommerce is blowing up, the capacity is limited on the delivery networks. But it's interesting because it kind of levels the playing field at this moment in time for independent brands because the shipping factor is not so much of an issue, and in fact a lot of people are probably are almost in... If somebody gives you something and takes it away it's worse than if they just had never given you anything to begin with, right? Stephanie: Yeah. Yeah, yeah I feel way more sad right now than I ever would have before this. Andrew: Exactly, right, because the expectation's there. So, that's creating an interesting opportunity. One of the things that Amazon just recently came out with I think in the last couple days was re-introducing... Way back, I don't know, two, three, four, I don't know how many years ago, multiple years ago, you used to able to ship your products from Amazon's warehouses to customers. You could use them as a 3PL fulfillment center without Amazon branded boxes. They changed that for many years and just this week I think they changed back to saying, "Oh, actually you can use our fulfillment services with your own proprietary boxes," or at least with unbranded boxes. And I think potentially... Who knows why they did it, it was kind of perplexing to a lot of people, but perhaps because they realize that they're losing on the shipping game and other merchants maybe are starting to migrate other places and if independent merchants are able to deliver the same shipping without Amazon maybe more then we'll move off. And one thing that we've done, we've done a State of the Merchant Report for the last three years, and our one for this year should be hopefully coming out fairly soon. But a trend that is really noticeable is the number of people that are going to Amazon is really... it's not reversing but it's plateauing very significantly. Andrew: And even just chatting with merchants and seeing a lot of case studies, people are taking a lot harder look at is it worth going on Amazon for how much channel risk you take on, how much loss of control of the consumer that you give up, you don't have addresses, all these things. They're just taking a lot harder look at is this good for my business long term? Stephanie: Yeah. So, do you think 2020 will show that a lot of people are pulling back from Amazon? Andrew: That is a good question. I think not a lot of people, but I do think when we released the report I made this prediction in the report too, so very likely could just fall on my face in the mud here, but I think the percentage of people who sell on Amazon, it was about 55% of all stores that we surveyed last time, I think that will decrease a small amount. I don't think we're going to see a precipitous drop but I think it goes from 55% to maybe 54 or f... I think we start to see that inflection point. Stephanie: Yeah, that's really interesting. The one thing I also read in your 2019 report was about the different marketing channels that people were using and I saw that Amazon ads had the highest ROI but not many people are using it, so I'm wondering what are your thoughts around that aspect of using it as a marketing tool? Andrew: Yeah. No, it's... Wow, good prep work. If you're on Amazon, Amazon ads you have to have a... people reported them being the most effective sales channel that they use. So, if you're on the platform they work really well, so definitely should be doing that if you're on the platform. I think it's just more of a... it's not a question so much of should we use Amazon ads if you're on the platform, you absolutely should. It's more of a question of do we want to be on Amazon in the first place? But, yeah, for people selling on Amazon they work really well. Stephanie: Yeah, okay. But then the other interesting thing I saw was that the average order value was way lower for... because if it's maybe a direct to consumer site or anywhere else people can maybe stack on additional things from your brand, where I think I saw on Amazon the average order value was much lower which makes me think you're not getting that, hey, you should maybe also try this from my brand and this from my brand as well and kind of increase the cart value. Andrew: I think that could definitely be part of it. I think a big part of it too is that if you have people on Prime there's no free shipping threshold, right? Have you ever ordered a... what's a good example here? Like a $3 koozie and it shows up and you're like, "How did they pay for the shipping for this? They lost money on this." Or even better, you order a $7 paperweight set that weight like 10 pounds and they ship it. There's no threshold so it's easy to impulse buy small stuff on Amazon. Stephanie: Yeah. Good point. Andrew: Whereas if you're buying from an independent merchant not always, but more often than not you're going to have some kind of free shipping threshold. So, either you're intentionally going to seek it out or you're buying multiple things so I think that probably also has a big part in why those order values are different. Stephanie: That's a good point. That's a good reason to look further into data and not just look really quickly like I did through the report. So, what other trends are you thinking are happening either right now, because a lot's been changing because of COVID and things are kind of just all over the place where some people are struggling, some people aren't. It seems like the market is changing quickly. What other trends or things happening do you see that people are surfacing in your community, or are you building into your next report coming out? Andrew: Yeah. So, eCommerce obviously no surprise here is just exploding, and we did a survey, this was in March when the world was falling apart and nobody knew what was happening and it was much more uncertainty than there even was now, and you saw early on in that you kind of saw a very big dip for the first probably week when COVID really started spiking and being taken seriously. And then you saw kind of half and half, half the businesses were doing okay or growing and half were failing, now I'd say you definitely have some businesses that are really struggling. If you're in the event space, if you sell items in the event space, any of the kind of in person things are having a hard time, but by large I'd say most of our stores are doing, you know, most of the industries are doing really well so that's fantastic. One thing that's tough, it's a downside, and anybody who's selling is probably going to be aware of is just the sales tax issue in the Unites States is just an absolute disaster, just on making- Stephanie: Tell me a bit about that because whether- Andrew: It's just a dumpster fire. Stephanie: I don't know if I... well, I actually probably have avoided anytime I see tax I'm like, "Oh, no thank you." So, I would love for you to dive in a bit and tell me why is the sales tax a disaster because [crosstalk 00:18:28]. Andrew: Yeah, so I'll try to be somewhat brief because you could probably talk about this for quite awhile, up until two or three years ago pretty much the case was if you... The only places you had to collect sales tax for was if you had Nexus in a state. So, if you had... I run a business out of Montana and Arizona, so Montana doesn't collect sales tax and so traditionally we've only had to collect sales tax in Arizona. There's a big Supreme Court case that came across in 2017 or 18. It was Wayfair versus South Dakota and pretty much the shakeout from that was that the Supreme Court said that states can require sellers that are outside of their state, they have no physical presence in their state, if they sell to a customer within their state they can collect sales tax on them if they reach a certain threshold. If they sell either a certain dollar volume in that state or if they have a minimum number transactions for that state. And it could be as low as 200 transactions and $50-100,000. So, the problem that causes is that now you have companies who create this economic Nexus and now all of a sudden they have to be responsible for collecting and submitting sales tax not just to 50 states but to potentially sometimes all these different municipalities and cites, and just creates a disaster of a compliance thing. Andrew: So, you've got companies that have sprung up to try to deal with that, and one top of that, if you sell on Amazon, technically if you have inventory... Normally, you send your inventory into Amazon and they a lot of times will split it up in three or four warehouses so it can be delivered quickly. Well, technically now if you have those inventory in those four states you have Nexus in those states and you have to also collect sales tax. So, it's just on the Amazon front, on the independent front, it's just created... We don't have any central governance for this. What I think would be best is if the federal government kind of took it over and said, "Hey, we'll create a national sales and redistribute." But at the moment you either have to deal with an insane amount of complexity, especially as you get larger, or you have to run the risks of being out of compliance and facing huge fines. It's a really rough place to be. Stephanie: Wow. How are you seeing eCommerce companies tackle this? That is not something that I've even thought about honestly, and it kind of scares me to ever start an eCommerce store now. Andrew: Yeah. There's a lot of different ways. Sometimes there's places... I have a company called The Tax Valet that helps out, they do a really good job. Kind of a personal hands on approach to doing this. Some merchants will use SaaS software like Taxify or TaxJar to be able to do that kind of stuff, Avalara as well. And some people just roll the dice and say, "Hey, this is a nightmare I'm not going to try to deal with this," so there's a lot of different... it depends on your risk tolerance, it depends how big you are, but people are taking a lot of different approaches to it. But to do it right it's really unfortunate. Stephanie: You'll have to hire someone. Andrew: Yeah, hire someone or really go deep on the SaaS side of things and dive in. Stephanie: Yeah, that sounds messy. Well, earlier you were talking about the howling out of eCommerce and I wanted you to talk a bit about that because we're talking still about the trends and what it's going to look like in the future, and I thought you had an interesting take on that so I'd love for you to go over that if you could. Andrew: Sure. And again, of course totally could be wrong here, but when I look forward into the future I feel like Amazon's going to be hallowed out in the sense that, or excuse me, eCommerce is going to be hollowed out in the sense that you have... On one side, you have brands on Amazon that sell either one or two things, they're either well known national brands, like the... well, I don't think Nike sells on them anymore so that's a bad example, but the... Why am I blanking on big national brands here? Tide for example could sell on there or Rubbermaid or Adidas, brands people... household names. They sell on there because it's just they know that brand, they go find it, and they want to buy it. You have people who are selling really small things, like we're talking about koozies or you needs stapler, or maybe you need a little backyard pool for the fact that your cousins are coming over and you really don't care if it breaks in three weeks and so you buy that. But then for anything in the middle that's like kind of not a huge national brand but also something that you want to have that's quality, I think a lot of those companies are going to start... people are going to buy much more from the companies themself, direct to consumer. Andrew: Because they can merchandise them better, the shopping and check out experiences are getting easier. I think brands are increasingly not going to sell on Amazon because there's, in addition to all the things we talked about, you also have huge IP issues and people ripping you off. So, I think that's going to be the hallowing out of eCommerce when Amazon's going to be a big donut and in the middle a lot of people are going to be selling directly on their own sites just because it makes more sense for all the reasons I mentioned, so. Stephanie: Yeah, that's interesting. We've also talked a bit about the conscious consumer that's kind of rising out of all this and how people are starting to care about what is the source of this product, is it actually sustainable? Is it a quality product? And less about can I have more and more focused on quality and sustainability. Have you heard that trend as well in your community? Andrew: Yeah, I would say I think that's something that's been kind of gradually increasing over the last five to 10 years. I think more than anything how it ties into our conversation is that Amazon over the last couple of years, and they've been fighting it and they've done some, to their credit, they've done some things to combat it, but they still have a... If you buy something on Amazon most people are not going to think it's... there's a little bit of a thought that it's probably not high quality, a little bit of a stigma for buying stuff on Amazon especially if it's not a name brand. Part of that- Stephanie: Even the name brands people wonder if it's it... is this a legit name brand, I've seen that a lot in comment and reviews. Andrew: Oh, totally. Partially because of review manipulation, partially because of counterfeiting, and partially because there's just a lot of... I mean, there's everything on Amazon so how do you filter through it, right? Stephanie: Yeah. Andrew: So, yeah, I think that's part of going back to that [inaudible] about the hallowing out of eCommerce unless it's a brand you absolutely have faith in or it's something that you don't care about the quality. Would you rather buy one of those borderline things from Amazon and roll the dice with an unproven brand, roll the dice with one of those mid-tier brands being counterfeited? Or, especially if you can get it just as quickly either because Amazon is shipping stuff really slowly or because increasingly independent merchants can deliver it more quickly with some of these other options via straight from the horse or straight from the source rather. So, yeah, I think for me that's how the quality issue ties in I think to the larger discussion. Stephanie: Yeah, that makes sense. Do you think that is why the drop shipping model has kind of decreased? I saw on your report that that is not as big of a thing as it used it, and I just remember... maybe even like last year, over the last couple years that was a huge thing. Everyone just said, "Start a eCommerce company and just drop ship things and let other people take care of it for you." What are you seeing with the drop shipping trend? Andrew: Yeah. So, when we talk about drop shipping I think it's important to differentiate two different things that come into people's minds. One is drop shipping, you can build a great high quality business based around drop shipping. A couple of businesses I started were drop shipping based businesses, one of them's still, under a great new owner, is still doing well. Really at the end of the day it's less about the product quality and more about how it's delivered. So, like Home Depot for example, they drop ship a ton of their stuff, some of their even big name brands because they're can't afford to hold everything in stock and that can potentially work out reasonably well. I think where it got a really bad reputation with all AliExpress side of things and so where- Stephanie: Yes, that's the stuff I read. Andrew: Yeah, right. And that's a whole different ballgame, and for people who, you know, if you're not familiar with that the 30 second version is you go onto AliExpress which lets you pretty much ship pretty much ship products directly from the factory in China to consumers in the US very cheaply through some kind of loopholes in the postal service. You can set up a store really quickly but by and large the products are garbage. They're just crappy, so that I think is where... There was a big rise in that, people ran that for a while, tried to run with that, but the problems were you couldn't build a brand around it because the products were awful, and because it took weeks to get your product to your customer, and probably because most likely if you're launching one of those businesses you know nothing about the product, so. Stephanie: Yeah. Never seen it, you don't even know if it'll make it or not. Andrew: Yeah. But even on the other side I'd say, that all aside, even if you're selling really good quality products, Amazon in the last five years has completely solved distribution. When I started for awhile I sold trolley motors, I sold CB radios, and back in those days you really could get a business up and running purely by sourcing a relationship with a wholesaler, doing a decent amount of marketing, having reasonable customer service and you were in business. But like today if you know what you want to buy, you know the brand, and you want it at a fair price, at a reasonable quickly you're probably going to go to Amazon for something you discreetly know that you want. So, Amazon's solved, at least before COVID and probably still I'd say a large degree, they solved distribution. So, how do you add value? You got to add value through some other way, usually that's through a lot of education or a really curated product line if you're going to sell existing products and those can be harder to get right. So, I don't think drop shipping is completely dead but I think it's gotten significantly harder versus even just two or three years ago. Stephanie: Yeah, that makes sense. So, one question I always try to ask on here is about metrics and data, and with access to your community I want to know what kind of metrics do people talk about as their success metrics or what do you hear people debating about when it comes to metrics behind if a business is doing well or not? Andrew: Yeah, I think the one everyone loves to talk about is revenue, right? But I think that's probably a pretty horrible metric to use. It's easy, and we're totally guilty of it, that's one of our thresholds for even membership. So, guilty as charged, I'm going to slay myself along with everyone that I slay here. We use it because it's easy, we use it because it's socially acceptable. It's way easier to say, "I do three million in revenue versus I made $600,000 last year. It's also way easier to say, "I did three million revenue," than, "Oh, I only made $20,000 last year and that was I didn't pay myself anything," right? Stephanie: Yeah. Andrew: But metrics that I think are most important, one that... To be totally frank, in the community we don't talk a ton about... a lot of our conversations really don't revolve around what metrics should you track. Bottom line is a big one, of course. Conversion rate's a big one, average order size is a big one. Repeat purchase rate is a big one. And I'd say we don't have tons of conversations about them, but I think probably the most important ones to think about today are repeat purchase rates because advertising is doing nothing but getting more expensive. It's getting harder and harder to get in front of people without paying the big tech gatekeepers. So, the more likely a customer is to come back to you and needing that product the more likely you can actually build a viable long term business, that's a big one. I think profitability per visitor is a huge metric. It's harder to calculate but if I was going to run my business on one metric it would be profit per visitor to my website. And the reason I say that is because it encapsulates a lot of things, conversion rate, traffic, all these different things. Andrew: But it really makes you focus on pricing. If I would have to identify the one thing that I have done across multiple businesses in my life that has had the biggest impact and taken the least work, hands down it would be pricing. And so few people play with it. Some people can't, a lot of people can. And it's terrifying to change prices because we all fear that when you change the prices that your business is going to disappear, but that rarely happens especially if you do it in a really smart way. And what you should be maximizing is your profitability per visitor, at least for new customers at a minimum. So, yeah, those are some of my thoughts on metrics, and again we don't... total frank, we don't talk a ton about... those aren't the hot topics but I think those are some of the things to really think about. Stephanie: Yeah. So, now you've opened up, what are some of the hot topics? What are some of the heated debates that are going on behind the wall? Andrew: That's a good question. You know what, let me pull it up. Stephanie: Yeah, open it up. Let's see. Andrew: I'm going to pull it up here. Stephanie: Sounds good. Andrew: So, we have a cool little feature. Let's just surface all the top discussions from the last year. So, I can't... for confidentiality I got to be sensitive, but here's some of our top stories from the last let's say month. The story about how someone sold their brand, their business that they built over the years and just the emotional rollercoaster and what they learned, and how they were looking to hire multiple... How to use influencers on YouTube to build an eight figure business. Stephanie: Oh, that's a good one. Stephanie: Yeah, the influencer one is interesting to me because it kind of brings about the question of the social shopping experience and how the US is so based... right now, I mean, a lot of people are looking towards influencers. Whereas other markets, like China, are not really as much about that. It's more about the social shopping experience. What were your thoughts, or what was the debate when it came to the YouTube influencers and how they utilize that, and do you think that's a longterm trend? Andrew: Yeah. I think one of the big themes I've seen is that the really big influencers a lot of times are spendy and hard to track, but you could potentially get a better ROI if you focus on helping maybe working with smaller influencers either for less money or just for product. Because it's, I don't know, I don't know about you but when I'm on Instagram and I see someone using a product, and especially if they even mention it in any little way I'm immediately a little suspicious. I'm like, "Is this person really like this product or are they just getting it comped and they're having to fulfill their end of the agreement that they signed up for?" Stephanie: Yeah, especially the more popular they are, like as it goes up to the really popular famous people then I'm like, okay, do you actually use that whitening strip? How much are you getting paid for that? Andrew: Yeah, and so I don't think influencer market is going away. I mean, we've had famous people endorsing things for decades, maybe 100+ years, especially in the United States, but I do think, yeah, I just think you can also waste a lot of money on it if you're not doing it carefully. Stephanie: Yeah, I completely agree. So, on your podcast I'm thinking, this is like self serveant, so I'll go with it, but what are some of the best questions that you've asked your guests before where you continued to get the best answers or the best stories? Andrew: Oh, good question. One of my... A couple ones, I would say what's the biggest mistake, or what's... excuse me, what's the last thing you apologized for I think is an interesting one. Stephanie: That's a good one. Andrew: I think another one is what's your number? Like, what's your number to be happy, like if you had X in the bank and what's your number where you'd be happy without having anymore? It's interesting to get a sense. You get numbers from all over the place from a million to 100 million, sometimes bigger, so. Stephanie: Oh, gosh. Andrew: Yeah. A lot of the questions are very specific to the individual person and their story, but for two general ones I'd say I like those ones and get some really interesting ones those times. Stephanie: Yeah, that would be really interesting. A good kind of peak into who that person is or how they think too. I like that. Andrew: Yeah. Stephanie: So, I know we haven't gotten to talk about the capital arm of your business yet and I wanted to kind of go into what that was like starting it up and what kind of issues you were encountering when starting a capital arm? What does that look like and I want a little behind scenes for the new side of your business. Andrew: Sure. Well, thank you. I appreciate it. Yeah, and I'll say in total transparency, like I said, very early into this. We're only about four or five months into this, so still pretty new. But you asked, and specifically were you hoping to know kind of some of the hard parts about starting that? Stephanie: Yeah, like what was the... not the thought process, because that seems pretty obvious like you have this great community and you maybe see some of the challenges that are going on, but what was it like starting a investment arm and what kind of challenges have you run into so far in the first four months? Andrew: Yeah. So, what it was like, it was terrifying. And I think- Stephanie: Sounds like it. Andrew: Yeah, traditionally you kind of have these two approaches where either you go out and raise a bunch of money and then you get all these commitments and you close on it and then you have to go out and put this money to work. It's kind of your life for the next often 10 years, and it's a traditional fund route. The other route is what's called syndicate where you pretty much do deals on a deal by deal basis, which gives you a lot more flexibility but the problem is every time you get a deal you got to go pass the hat and call a million and half the people are out, you know, of those half a quarter of them decide at the last minute that... like the funding process is a nightmare on that side. So, putting it together I kind of did something of a hybrid of those two where we have a group of about 20 investors that are tentatively in. I know them, they trust me, I trust them, and there's kind of a... they signed an informal thing that says, "Hey, I'm in for the next three years for this amount of money." So, hopefully it gives us the flexibility of not have to go out and deploy money just to deploy money, but we can also can be a little flexible, and we can also have the commitment from some people to go forward. Andrew: So, that's totally on the technical fund side, probably super boring to most people. But in terms of some of the challenges, I think that the challenging thing is just the number of deals you have to look at to try to find a good deal. I mean, I looked at over 100 deals so far at some level of depth and it's just finding, A, just good companies, B, where it's a good fit for both parties, and C, where you can see it working out well for everyone. It's really hard to find good deals, especially as a minority partner that comes in to invest, especially on the eCommerce side because our approach and what we're trying to do is buy, invest, in the long run with companies to build profitable businesses, like we're not trying to flip them. And I think in tech investing you can get away with a lot of sloppiness because you're kind of swinging for the fences. So, if you have a bunch that don't work out it's a big deal, most of them don't work out. Stephanie: They don't. Andrew: But with eCommerce, our model... we're looking to do singles and doubles and it's just hard to find really good businesses that you feel are going to be around for three to five years. So, the hardest part for us has just been finding great businesses that we feel check all our boxes, so. Stephanie: Yeah, that makes sense. Is there a common theme behind what these businesses are needing capital for? Andrew: Yeah, I would say... So, financing for eCommerce businesses is tricky. There are some options out there, there's things like Shopify Capital, there's ClearBank, there's PayPal Capital, Amazon Lending, all these things, but they're expensive. They also take a... often times you don't pay them back on a fixed rate, you pay them back on a percentage of revenue which can be good and bad. So, inventory financing is a big one but I'd say the people that we talk to it was probably half and half. Half of them want money for inventory financing to grow the business and half of them just really would love to have someone who has spent $15 million on Facebook ads in their career to be able to help them and give them some high level guidance on what to do and some thoughts there, or someone who's done a lot of importing to be able to tap into that knowledge based in that network, so. Stephanie: Yeah, I agree. When were thinking about fundraising back in the day I was like, "I actually don't really care about people's money as much as are they going to help me?" Like, I really don't want the most famous investor because I highly doubt they will spend any time with me. I want the person who's ready to get their hands dirty and help me with the nitty gritty stuff that I'm looking for help with. Andrew: Oh, totally. Yeah, there has never been... There's so much money sloshing around right now, right? And so there's a lot of places that get money, which is good if you're raising money, but it's greed. I think the real value ad is the experience side and the money is just kind of a nice perk that comes along with it often. Stephanie: Yeah. Yeah, I completely agree. So, you've been looking at a lot of businesses and you have a lot of businesses in your community, what is one thing that you wish online sellers would either start or stop doing? Andrew: Start or stop doing... Stephanie: I like to throw out the hard balls. Andrew: Yeah, no this is good. I would say I wish people would start having more fun with the copy in their business. So, one thing I always... and I didn't, I can't claim- Stephanie: That's a good one. Andrew: I can't claim credit for this one, but I've always liked to try to make the copy and confirmation emails and things like that fun and interesting and a little bit different as opposed to like, "Thank you for your order. Your order is 49732. We appreciate your business." Such a great... Transactional receipts are one of the most opened emails across all emails, shipping ones absolutely, and if you're trying to build a brand there's no better point to be able to, you know, have some fun and be able to be different and differentiate yourself, right? So, I think that's a big one. You can extend that to the product packaging, your website, all that stuff. But I would say take a little more risks and have a little bit more fun. I would check out a site called mancrates.com, have you heard of them? Stephanie: No, tell me a bit about them. Andrew: They're so good. They're so good. They sell fun gifts for men, so for example, instead of ordering your dad a tie you can order him a 16 inch by 16 inch wooden crate of beef jerky and steak rub that he has to open with a crow bar when it shows up to his house, Like stuff like this that's different. Stephanie: Oh my gosh. Andrew: And the copy is freaking just hilarious. So, check them out if- Stephanie: Oh, that's good. I'll have to check that out. Andrew: Yeah, they're really good. It's just you're buying an experience for the recipient and people pay up for it, so. Stephanie: Yeah, now more than ever with people not going out as much, not going in stores and stuff, you do have to figure out how to differentiate yourself. And I think that's a good point that, I mean, right now I'm even thinking I bought something and I'm getting the actual logistics email of DHL or whatever will be shipped at this time, and it's all this other text that I don't care about, so it's like, "Okay, I actually don't care about this email that's coming through." And if they would've made it unique and fun and exciting... like I don't even know what this is that I bought, that's how bad it is. There's no branding or anything, it's just coming apparently. Andrew: Yeah, if they were like, "The DHL guy had a wreck but your package was so important that he grabbed it from the fiery box and he crawled with one arm bleeding out and he handed it to the last person he saw and said, 'Deliver this, please. Deliver it to Stephanie,' and then he died." Stephanie: Oh my gosh. Andrew: That might be intense and maybe it doesn't work for all brands, but it sure as heck gets your attention and you're like, "Whoa, this is interesting." Stephanie: You need to write for our brand. I'm going to bring you on our team, Andrew, just for your copy. I need that. Oh man, that's good. All right. So, I want to do a higher level eCommerce question because I just think you're, one, you're willing to take a risk and you're willing to predict the future which I like. I appreciate that. So, I want to hear either what disruption is coming to eCommerce that's not already here, because a lot of people have said, "Oh, COVID's the biggest disruption." That answer's already been taken, so either the biggest disruption or you can tell me what the future of online commerce looks like in five years. Andrew: Biggest disruption coming, I'll try to tackle both of them. Biggest disruption is I think that... man, it's just coming from the guy. You talk about be willing to predict the future, I made a bet with somebody when Amazon was $200 a share that Alibaba was gonna out pace it. And now that Amazon is $3,000 a share, it was a humbling experience and it cost me a very experience steak dinner. That being said, here's my prediction... Stephanie: That's all right. I want your prediction still. Andrew: I would say the biggest disrupter, oh man... I'm going to throw a couple things out there, I think text is going to be a big one, SMS. But that's not like a big disrupter as much as just a new marketing channel that us marketers can leverage for awhile until we completely destroy texting for everybody which will probably take three or four years. Stephanie: That's a good one though. What are thinking around using that as new marketing channel? Andrew: Oh, I just think, I mean, if you look at the... I think email is just getting harder and harder unless you really want to hear somebody's email. So, I just signed up for the service HEY, are you familiar with that from Basecamp? Stephanie: I've heard about it and I seen a bunch of drama on Twitter about it, so. Andrew: Yeah. There has been... probably between them and the App store and all that kind of stuff? Stephanie: Yes, yes. Andrew: Yeah. So, one of the reasons I signed up for them is because they have this thing where you can screen your emails now, and the first time you get an email from a new sender you can say, "Hey, I want this person to pop in my inbox, or no, Johnny, from Michigan I don't care about your boat covers. Don't ever talk to me again. It's unsolicited." So, that kind of thing, I think email is going to be... there's going to be more and more tools and services that let you curate your email and really slice down who gets to hear from you and so email is going to get harder and harder. But if you look a just text message delivery versus email it's an order of magnitude higher engagement, readability, click through, et cetera, and I think that marketers are already, I mean, they're already starting to do that. People that I know that are on the leading edge have five, I haven't six figures, but definitely seen some good mid tier five figure SMS lists and they just do really well. So, the problem is you got to be really careful because when people text me about things that I'm not interested in... like texting for me is very personal. I text my wife, my family, my good friends. Andrew: I don't text with Bobby's Boat Shop in Michigan, and if he sends me a promotion via text I'm going to be pissed off. So, you got to be really careful about how you use that but I think that will be a big marketing channel going for, so. Not really sure if that's really a disrupter and it's already kind of here in some regards but I'll throw that one out there. Stephanie: Yeah, I like that. I think that's a good one though to think about how to be careful when you start using these new channels, because completely agree. I've had I think someone just texted me this morning who's like, "I'm the education blah, blah, blah person of your district." I'm like, "What are you texting me right now? Don't." Andrew: Oh, totally. You can really... and I think there's some pretty stiff penalties for not being careful about that in terms of if you just spam people via text, which is good. But yeah, nothing's worse than getting a text from someone you really don't want to hear about, so. Stephanie: Yeah, I agree. All right. So, next we have a lightning round, if you're ready, Andrew. It's where I'm going to ask you a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Andrew: Perfect. For each question? Stephanie: Yeah. Andrew: Awesome. Is there like a booing sound if I go over so I stop talking? Stephanie: No, it'll just be me, "Boo! Boo!" in the background. Andrew: Do it, do it. Stephanie: All right. What's up next on your Netflix queue? Andrew: I don't really... Oh, actually I do have... what is it? They're in Arizona, there's a place called Biosphere 2 where they locked all these people into this kind of self contained environment as a training mission to go to Mars, and they isolated them from earth atmospherically for two years, and surprise surprise it was a huge trauma fest. Can't remember the name of the movie but that's what I'm watching next on Netflix. Stephanie: Oh my gosh, that sounds insane. Andrew: Spaceship Earth is the name of the documentary. Stephanie: Spaceship Earth, okay. I will have to check that out. Very interested in that, and I also pontificate about Mars sometimes on our other show Mission Daily, so it's perfect for me. Andrew: Oh, perfect. Watch it tonight. Stephanie: All right. Where are you going next for your travel destination when you can travel? Andrew: Probably down Tucson, Arizona where... I'm up in Montana right now, but probably Tucson, Arizona which is where we live, so. Stephanie: Cool. Andrew: That's kind of a cop out. I need a better one. Stephanie: Wait, you live in Montana and you live in Tucson? Andrew: We're up here, we spend some time in the summertime up in Montana just to see family, friends, like that. Stephanie: Oh, cool. Andrew: Yeah, so we're heading back there soon. Don't have any plans at the moment but the next big trip I would like to take would be to Mongolia. Stephanie: Oh, that would be very interesting. Do you have an Instagram? I'll have to follow along when you go there. Andrew: @capalisthippie, so. Stephanie: Okay, I'll follow you. If you were to create a Netflix original, what would it be about? Andrew: Oh, this is easy. It would be... I'm fascinated with the question of where is the balance between running a business and being ambitious and chasing entrepreneurial success and having a great life and traveling and seeing your family and nurturing other side of yourself, and I feel like so few people get that right. So, my documentary would be pick 12 entrepreneurs from varying levels of that spectrum, live with them and follow them for two months each and try to come to some conclusions about if you were going to try to design your life to be able to maximize both of those, where's the line? Stephanie: Yeah. That's a really good one. I need help with that right now. Andrew: I think a lot of us do. Stephanie: Yeah. What podcast guest are you trying to get on that you just can't get, like they're just not responding and you really want them? Andrew: Oh, that's a good one. I think awhile we were trying to get Tim Ferriss on the show, which is super cliché. It didn't work out. Stephanie: Ouch. Andrew: Yeah, I know. I'm still upset about that, Tim. What is the favorite piece of tech that makes you more efficient? Andrew: Good question. I would say text expander is a big one so you can do saved replies and bump those out. Yeah, I'd say that's probably one of my favorite. Asana is another great one. I love Asana for we manage all our SOP's and long term projects there, so I'd say those two. Stephanie: Yeah, completely agree. I like them. All right, the last one, what new eCommerce tool are you hearing about that a lot of people in your community or outside of it are having success with right now? Andrew: I would say there's a tool called Bonjoro, and it's not necessarily just for eCommerce, but it allows you to send custom welcome videos to people really easily. If you think about sending a video to a customer it's probably not the filming that's the hard part, it's probably like the okay, I have to film it and then I have to send it, and then I have to edit and export, and it just lets you cue up these emails, send videos to people for kind of nicer customer service touch. So, yeah we use that for onboarding for a lot of our members and I've heard people have good luck with that, so. Stephanie: That's cool. Well, Andrew, this has been such a fun interview. Where can people learn more about you and eCommerceFuel? Andrew: Yeah, if you like podcasts, which at the end of listening to me talk for 45 minutes you prob are- Stephanie: Do you want more? Andrew: ... a glutton for punishment, yeah. I would love to have you as a podcast listener on the eCommerceFuel podcast, so you can get that anywhere you get podcasts, iTunes or elsewhere. But yeah the big home is just eCommerceFuel.com, so you can learn about the community there if you're a store owner and want to get plugged in or if you have an interesting business that are looking for either money or probably more importantly some expertise from a group of really experienced eCommerce investors. Yeah, I would love to have a discussion with you. So, eCommerceFuel.com is the best place for all that stuff. Stephanie: Well, it's been a blast, Andrew. Thanks so much and we will see you next time. Andrew: Yeah, this has been fun. Thanks for having me on.

What is the right percent profit margin you should target for your products? How do you get the most out of your Facebook ad buys? How much should you really pay attention to conversion rate? These are just a few of the questions that every small business and Ecommerce shop wants the answers to. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, we picked the brain of Andrew Faris, the CEO of 4x400, a company that has helped grow numerous Ecommerce companies from less than 500,000 into the tens of millions. Today, Andrew spills some of his advertising secrets, including how to make Facebook your core driver for customer acquisition. Here’s a mini spoiler: human bias is leading you astray, but there is a simple way to correct course. Find out that, and more, on this episode! Main Takeaways: Conversion rate is so context-specific that it's not that helpful of a metric. Instead, analyze conversion rate relative to average order value and relative to the traffic sources the customer came from. Before you invest in anything else, you need to drive traffic to the top of the funnel. Currently, Facebook ads are the core driver of customer acquisition for online shopping. Andrew suggests that most Ecommerce brands should invest in the platform and then trust the algorithm to put you in front of the right audiences. You have to take big swings with your experiments. Don’t get hung up on micro-details like the color of your buttons or rewriting your copy. Instead, find big ways to make changes and then see how the outcomes stack up. Because we are all riddled with our own biases, we often cannot predict accurate models of the future on our own. Instead, use data as your guide as you peer into the future. For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length. --- Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce --- Transcript: Stephanie: Hey everyone. This is Stephanie Postles, co-founder of Mission.org and your host of Up Next in Commerce. Today on the show, we have the CEO of 4x400, Andrew Faris. Andrew, thanks for taking the time. Andrew: Stephanie, I am very glad to be able to do this. I have never been accused of not liking to talk about Ecommerce in particular, but just in general. So this is fun. Stephanie: Well, you're my perfect guest then. I was creeping as one does on your LinkedIn. I saw an interesting thing that you have a background in religion and theology. I was wondering how you transitioned into the world of business from that background. Andrew: Yeah. I can always tell when somebody has looked at my LinkedIn or not because that's maybe the only place where that's found anymore. Stephanie: You're welcome. Andrew: Yeah, yeah. No, I went to school for biblical studies, and then got a master's degree in New Testament. So that was my whole pathway, was to go into that and actually was a pastor for a while. Did that, and then about ... gosh, how long ago? Five and a half years ago stepped out of that not because anything in my faith changed per se, but just because I was just rethinking a bunch of stuff in my life and reworking a bunch of stuff in my life. So it's just total life change in all kinds of crazy ways. I didn't have a clue what I was going to do actually. Andrew: That educational pathway doesn't have a direct connection to almost anything that's not work in a church or academic setting or something like that in theology. So, I really loved that education a lot, but I was figuring it out. So I called a friend of mine named Taylor Holiday, who ... and I was talking to him about if there's any available work in his world of work. Just basically as an in between thing while I figured it out. I just thought I'll just go do something for a couple months to figure out what I want to do. He said, sure, and brought me to a company called QALO, Q-A-L-O. If you've seen the silicon wedding rings that are for- Stephanie: Oh, yeah. Andrew: .. on the internet a lot, QALO was the first big company of those. QALO went zero to 20 million in a year and a half and was not funded. So, I was bootstrapped. I went there and it was just growing super, super fast. Also, being not funded and being a bunch of people like that, it just meant that they just were, in those worlds probably some of your listeners probably know this story a little bit, which is like, you just find people who can do stuff in that setting. I literally started in the warehouse. At one point, I sat down with Taylor, who's now one of my partners. Taylor was running marketing for QALO at the time. His brother was one of the founders. Taylor said, "Hey, you've got a mind for numbers," which he knew because we were in a Fantasy Baseball League together and knew that I was a big baseball stat nerd. Andrew: May not be interesting to many of your listeners I'm sure, but I have a lot to say about the interplay of thinking about sports through statistical lens and thinking about Ecommerce. Anyway, so that was the origin. We had been in this fantasy baseball for a while, "I know you have a mind for numbers, why don't you learn Facebook ads and Google ads and learn digital marketing?" I said, sure, but still I was not really sure what I wanted to do in the longer term. But I was like, "All right, that sounds fun." So, did that and loved it. Andrew: I mean, I was so totally unaware of what was happening, but I still remember the first conversation I had with Taylor in a bank where he told me what I'd be doing. He's explaining to me how Facebook ads, Google ads worked and said, "Is it okay? Well, here's the deal. You get customers into the funnel with your ads and then you drive ..." and I stopped him in the middle of that sentence and said, "What's the funnel?" That was where my digital marketing knowledge was at. From there, that ended up being the pathway to the digital marketing and Ecommerce career growth. So I was at QALO for a while, went to CTC, the agency that owns our company, owns the majority of it and became the head of strategy there. And then now I run 4x400. Andrew: Yeah, it was a crazy set of circumstances with Taylor. We actually went to junior high together, but had not reconnected because of that. We reconnected outside of that. So, just weird circumstances. Stephanie: That's interesting. Andrew: This gets into my life philosophy a little bit. I'm a believer in divine providence and think there was some of that happening around. Stephanie: For sure. Yeah, that's awesome. Always good to be in business with someone who's willing to bet on you because you have that beginner's mindset and it's probably why you're doing so well. But I'd love for you to detail a little bit about the structure of CTC and 4x400 in the holding company structure because we haven't had anyone on the show quite like this. So, any details around what 4x400 is and how it's connected to CTC would be great. Andrew: Yeah, sure. Common Thread Collective, it grew out of ... Taylor was building the agency alongside the growth of QALO. Started really focusing on Facebook ads. CTC does a lot more in that now, but CTC is now a full service digital sales agency. We said digital sales sell digital marketing because what we're doing is selling things on the internet, it's consumer goods, really focusing on Ecommerce entrepreneurs. The mission of CTC is to help entrepreneurs achieve their dreams. So that's really what we're about. We're specifically really good taking people in somewhere in the journey from zero to 30 million. Andrew: I was a strategist there and then became the head of strategy there. CTC continues to grow and do well. Taylor Holiday, as I mentioned is the managing partner of CTC. Andrew: In the midst of that, we also were like ... I mean, we came from this background of starting QALO. Taylor also was early on with another one of our partners named Josh Rodarmel who founded Power Balance. If you don't know Power Balance, Power Balance was the really popular silicon bracelets that were worn by athletes for a long time, still are worn by some. Andrew: That company was another super crazy fast growth company. I think they were zero to 50 in a year and a half. Yeah, I think that was the number. But anyway, I did on the brand side selling consumer goods in those worlds. We're like, why don't we launch our own brands as well? So, that's how 4x400 started. Eventually I went over to that side of the business. We started with building our own brand from scratch. It totally saw giant failure called [inaudible] company, just a huge waste of money. It doesn't exist anymore. It was sports themed baby goods and it just ... there are a lot of reasons that didn't work Stephanie: Wait, sports themed baby goods, so- Andrew: Yeah, yeah. Stephanie: ... like onesies. Andrew: Yeah. Like onesies that look like football uniforms. They're adorable. I don't know why nobody bought them. Stephanie: Okay, that's super cute. I'll buy one from you. Andrew: Yeah. I think that you'd have to go find a flea market in Northern California somewhere. I had to go get it every day. Stephanie: I will find one, I actually need to for my twin. So, it'll be a long journey, but I'm going to do it. Andrew: Okay. You're in Northern California, right? Stephanie: Yeah. Andrew: Yeah, I think that's who we sold to, so [inaudible] don't worry. We did that, and then realized actually most of our skill at this point ... most last couple years that we have really been spent after we'd gotten out of the brand side so much growing brands, not so much building brands. So we thought, why don't we just do that? Now our model is, at 4x400, we work with entrepreneurs who are in early stages and feel a little stalled out. We provide them with a team around them that can help them grow it. 4x400 mission is also to help entrepreneurs achieve their dreams. We just do it in a different way than CTC. Andrew: CTC does that the traditional client relationship 4x400, takes the majority share of the brand. And then our goal is to make it so that by bringing us on as a partner and all of the expertise and resources we have around finance operations, marketing, growth customer service, even just really thinking through the whole system of what it means to be a great Ecommerce brand, we can help brands grow. We just closed actually our fifth brand that is currently in our portfolio. We're hoping to close another one soon. Who knows by the time it comes out, if that will happen? We're trying to work with brands who are doing less than half a million in revenue and saying like "We can try to grow you from there." CTC is the majority owner 4x400. 4x400 is the majority owner of these brands. So there's this giant web of relationships there. Stephanie: Yeah, okay. That helps me understand the landscape a bit more. How do you think about acquiring brands, how do you find brands that are willing to say, "Okay, we'll give you a majority share and come under your company"? Andrew: Yeah. Well, there's a few ways. CTC is a magnet for some of them. Sometimes brands will come to CTC and CTC will say, we're not the right partner for you. You're not a place where you can afford us. One piece of advice I have for a lot of it was like, if you are paying an agency not very much money you should really think about whether the agency is good because agency economics just require, for you to get great service, they typically require a pretty good investment. Just think about it. Agencies exist by marking up people's time. So, an agency works well if they are able to attract and train great talent by nature of access to large amounts of information. Andrew: The value of an agency is that they are spending millions and millions of dollars of other people's money on stuff. So, it's information arbitrage in that respect. You can come to an agency and get that information applied to your brand in a way that maybe an in house resource can't always do because they just are not going to have the visibility to as much of what's going on. For that to work, then you have to mark up that time of high quality, talented people who are probably not cheap. And then also for something like Facebook ads, Google ads, and then oftentimes there's a creative element of that and a writing element of that, and a strap gentleman have that, so that means you got to pay designers and other people like that too. And then there's web dev parts of it. You start to put that all together and if it's too cheap, then you have to be going like, wait a minute, what am I actually getting here? Andrew: Some brands in the early days, will come to ... they'll be stalled out or come to CTC for resources. CTC will say to them, actually you can't really afford this. What we actually think is a better solution for you is to talk about a deeper investment where we can really surround you with more stuff. What we find is a lot of entrepreneurs love product building and customer communication in certain ways. They love their customer, they love their product idea people, but they don't necessarily have all of the skills around everything else it takes to grow a brand. In fact, they don't want to do those things. Andrew: Most entrepreneurs don't start brands because they love finance, they don't. They don't even necessarily love tactical marketing. A lot of times what we can say to them is, "Let us take all that stuff that you hate doing anyway from you, you feel overwhelmed and stalled all the time anyway. You come with us, we'll pay you a consistent salary," which is also a big help to some people who are going like, I just don't even know if I can perform this anymore. We'll help you grow. Some entrepreneurs want to stay on, some don't, some just wants to take it. So it really depends on each entrepreneur, but that's basically a lot of how we think about it. Andrew: And then for us, we evaluate the brand by saying like, "Does it have basic product market fit and basic fundamentals to where we think as we bring in all of our tactical expertise and all of our specific expertise in various disciplines that we can then apply that to the brand and grow it?" A brand who comes to us who hasn't really invested much in paid media, but has done 100 to $300,000 in revenue, we look at that and say, "That's ..." Actually, we have a really high amount of respect for that. It's really hard to do that, it's hard to do $100,000 without being good at Facebook ads. It's not easy. So we look at that and say like, "Good job. We don't think you're a failure. If you come to us and want our help, we think we get it." We look at that and say, "That's very impressive. Let us surround you now with resources that we can scale this to 10, $20 million in revenue." Stephanie: Very cool. How are your brands performing now? Andrew: Yeah, good. They're doing good. Andrew: I think COVID really helped Ecommerce brands massively. Two things happen at the same time. One of them is that large corporations who have diversity of sales channels, but were spending lots of money on advertising, pulled their advertising budgets the way the heck back. Of course, lots of other companies couldn't produce products. So they couldn't sell products in retail settings, so they pulled a lot of the budget back. They couldn't produce products because of supply chain problems. And then at the same time ... So that meant that in large auction based advertising work universes like Facebook ads and Google ads, ads got suddenly way cheaper really fast. Andrew: The way that works is that because those are built on an auction, if a lot of people leave the auction everybody's prices get cheaper. We've looked at this data across CTC accounts. There was a giant plummeting of advertising CPMs in those worlds. And then at the same time in the last couple months, conversion rate on websites went up because the only place to capture demand was online. You couldn't go buy stuff in the store. So if you're selling things on the internet, that's where people are buying things from. And then of course, the stimulus checks it. As people have noted, that actually ended up being one of the largest increases in revenue to the average American family in history. So, all of a sudden, people have money to spend. Whether or not they should have spent it on consumer goods is a different question, I don't really know. But they had money to spend. Andrew: The less places for that demand to be captured mostly on Ecommerce stores. And then also, it got a lot cheaper to reach those people with ads. You put that all together and Ecommerce did really, really, really well for a couple months. So that really helped us. There's no question about it. We're still feeling some of the positive effects of that. It feels weird to be a winner in COVID, but there's no question that Ecommerce brands were .. To varying degrees depending on the category you're in, for sure. Andrew: We have three brands that are in the established stage and not in the start it up stage. Stephanie: What account is established, is it a revenue metric or- Andrew: Yeah, a good question. I'd say a million dollars during 12 months, or a million dollar run rate. We would look at and say, "Okay, we're growing at the pace that we want." I can just give you some numbers. We're projected this year to go to have one of our brains go to 8 million, that brand did 100,000 in 2017. Last year, we really took it over halfway through the year. I think we ended at 750 for the year. So, that's definitely our fastest growing brand right now. Stephanie: That's [crosstalk 00:16:47]. Andrew: Another one- Stephanie: ... some good growth right there. Andrew: Yeah. We feel good about that. That's profitable too, which is definitely in our model. We took on a little bit of funding early, but not a ton of funding. We function more like a bootstrapped company. And then another one went from ... just a little over two years ago, we acquired it. It was basically doing no revenue, it'll do 3 million this year. Yeah, that's a different story. And then another one went from 250 to a million to just under two, this year, we'll do four to four and a half probably. So those ones are all we feel established growing at the pace we want, we feel really good about. Stephanie: Yeah. That's some impressive number. How do you grow these brands? What are some of your tactics and strategies that you rely on those, what do you see success with? How can someone else learn from what y'all are doing to grow their Ecommerce companies? Andrew: Yeah. Facebook ads is the core driver of customer acquisition for us. I mean, selling consumer goods direct to consumer online, Facebook ads is still the most powerful tool in the world for reaching people. I'm hearing chatter about other things, YouTube, Snap, even Tik Tok, Google ads, product's changing. I just think still at this point, at scale, depending on what you mean by scale, people define that word differently. But for us, that's the core, top of the funnel way that we get traffic to our website. Andrew: I mean, you think about what Facebook ads is, it's not buying ads so much as buying traffic. I guess it's both really. But we look at that and say, "If we can make the traffic worth more than we're paying for it, worth enough more that we're paying for it to cover the cost of goods and things like that," I should say, "Then we can win." That's how we drive top of funnel traffic for us. And then after that, we try to do everything that we think great brands should do, which is like create a beautiful website that treats their customers great, has generous returns and shipping policies as much as we can afford to do it basically, which varies from brand to brand, depending on a number of factors. Do a great job with your retention email and other automated flow stuff. Constantly testing conversion rate optimization on our site in various ways. There's just a whole bunch of that kind of stuff that we're doing on the backend of that. Andrew: We are also certainly looking to invest in other top of the funnel type metrics, our traffic drivers as well. I would think of Google search as mid funnel and Google shopping as mid funnel. So, we're definitely investing there as well. I think we'll keep doing other stuff. That won't work forever. There's going to be a cap to how much Facebook ads does the driver work and we fully intend to add to our customer acquisition approach when we can. But our goal has been to grow profitably and we think that's one of the best ways to do it right now. Andrew: The other thing is it's not just one of the best ways to do it, it's just that we also have deep expertise in it. So, I'm just a believer that do the thing you do well as much as you can. I think it works for leadership and working with teams. Just as much as we can set up our team members to be doing the things that they love doing and they're good at. As long as the things that people love doing and are good at create value for the company, then you should pay them to do it. So that's the way we look at it too. Andrew: Just coming from the agency side, I personally have managed, I don't know, 25 ad accounts, that's probably more than that. Seen a lot more of that when I was the head of strategy and working with other strategists. I don't mean that to brag. It means that now I have some intellectual capital built up on what works. So, that's what we use from there. Stephanie: Cool. To drill in a little bit deeper then for the Facebook ads because I think a lot of companies probably have looked at Facebook ads, maybe they're using it. I haven't heard of anyone growing liked you guys are growing your brands consistently. So what tactics are you using specifically, or what do you see works well? Andrew: Yeah, there's a lot I can say about that. I think this is going to sound so fishy, but if you're getting serious about that, there's a couple of things ... The thing I would actually tell you to do, if you don't know where to start and you're getting serious about it, is to go visit your admission.co. I don't know, maybe I can give you a link to this, Stephanie, at some- Stephanie: Yeah, we can link it up. Andrew: Cool, yeah. So that is CTC's education program. It's not a course, it's different than every other education thing I know of in this world. It's actually a moderated community with access to ... Taylor, the CEO of CTC is in there doing webinars like our team members, our brand managers and people like that. Also, might jump in there and do webinars exclusively for that community. What we're doing is teaching all of the things that are ... what we believe are really the best practices for Facebook ads from the perspective of creative, from the perspective of targeting, bidding, all that kind of stuff. Bringing people through all of those things and then giving them continued support with access to the actual CTC teams who are doing that same thing that I was describing, which is spending millions of dollars of other people's money, so you can have access to that knowledge set. I think it's 500 bucks a month right now. Andrew: I even say sometimes there's even executive level people who will take their whole team through it. It's not like you're going to be in it for forever. The point is that you can do that and get access to what we believe works best. We're always evaluating that. There are certainly other things to do there, but that'll give you what we ... We try to be really honest and transparent where we can about what we're seeing. So that will give you mental ways to think about that problem. Andrew: I think one of the things that can go wrong is you could listen to me talk about this, and maybe you're an entrepreneur and you hear my numbers and you go like, I'm going to go do that. You just blow money because you make simple mistakes that somebody could help you not make, if you've just got some support. There is no way to learn besides doing it really. You're going to make mistakes, it's okay. In my view, creative needs to be really product focused in the sense that it's on Facebook ads and Instagram ads. You are driving high quality traffic by giving people a clear sense of what your product is right away. Clear wins over everything else first as a baseline. Andrew: Clear doesn't make you give you the best out in the world. They're clear plus some other things do that, but clear establishes a baseline of what you can expect and at least drives what I consider high quality traffic to your side. People who are interested in you because of your product. So that's probably the first basic principle I would say is focus on being clear in your creative before you focus on being clever or funny, or any of those kinds of things. You can drive a lot of very cheap traffic to your website with Clickbait tactics, but they won't buy anything. Ultimately, it won't matter how cheap the traffic is if they don't buy anything. So that's the kind of thing I would say. Andrew: And then the other big thing I'm a huge believer in is trust the algorithm. There was a world where people talk about Facebook ads as the value of micro-targeting that was one of the phrases people would talk about. This idea that you'd go find exactly your customer really specifically target them without everybody else. I think there was a time when that was part of how you did it. Those times are gone. What I would say is what you want to do is give Facebook as much information as possible and let Facebook's algorithm predict the future for you because humans are terrible at predicting the future. Algorithms are pretty good at it. So, algorithms do a really good job of looking at the data set of who's responding to your advertising. And then going and saying, here's some more people like that to put you out in front of. So, we believe in really broad targeting. Andrew: Let Facebook have as much freedom as you can to go and find the next person to put you out in front of. Over time, not even over that much time, Facebook's amazing in this regard much quicker than Google is at this. Facebook will find who those people are. So that's the broad principles I would say is trust the algorithm, be clear with your creative. There you go. There's just so much more I could say about the Stephanie, but I'm going to stop there. So I don't take up the entire rest of the podcast. Stephanie: Okay, cool. Yeah, we will definitely link that up. I think it's a really important point too to segment a piece of your ad budget for testing. I know we do that internally as I'll tell. Our team members are like, "Hey, you have this much money. If you spend it and you just learn from it, that's okay. Versus this amount let's actually protected and make sure we drive results with it." So I think it's good to go into a mindset being okay with using a portion of ads for an R&D type testing project. So, you feel like you can learn from it, but not blow your entire budget on it. Andrew: Okay, no question. Constantly testing is super crucial. What I'd say about that is, when I want to test on Facebook ads, the place I want to test most is take big swings with your tests. The common thing you hear people say with testing, you'll hear people like, I've seen so many articles trumpeting like, oh, we changed our CTC button color or we changed it from [inaudible] now and it was a 15% lift. Andrew: First of all, I just don't believe those studies anymore. Secondly, the reason you're writing about it is because it's exceptional. It doesn't happen all the time. I just think that's a waste of people's time. But most people need to do, if they're looking to go from not successful to successful, the larger the difference in outcome you want, the bigger the change you need to make. You can't just change the background color of your ad and expect that it give you wildly different results. That's once you have results you like and now you're just dialing in and trying to grab an extra 2% of value here and there. I just rarely see that thing work. Andrew: What I would say is much better to think to test is something like, what's the offer that you're giving people? What's the product you're starting with and leading with? That can create wildly different results. We just ran something for our jewelry company that we ... 31 Bits, which is our other most recent acquisition, our fourth brand. We started with a batch of ads focusing on one set of products were necklaces and bracelets and things like that. We were getting a dollar of 50 clicks, low click through rates, et cetera, and very poor conversion rate. Andrew: We changed the product set, same exact brand, similar styles of photography, but just different products to a whole different category of product and saw triple or more the performance suddenly CTC went way down. Click through rate, went way up, conversion went way up. The reason why is really obvious, it's jewelry, some people like some bracelets better than others. If you just use the same stuff all the time, people are going to respond to it the same way over time. There's no magic to that. That's how people shop for something that you wear. It's about what it looks like. So, by changing the products that we led with that made a huge difference. So that's what I'd say is for Ecommerce consumer good people, that's the kind of test you want to be running. Andrew: Give it a whole different products out, a whole different offer, a whole different way of framing the offer, don't just change little bits of the creative and copy if you want to change your outcome in a big way. Stephanie: Yeah. I love that. People I talk to sometimes are focused on those micro adjustments that you're talking about or just the minimal incremental pieces that they could change, whether it's button colors or all that. That's a good point too. Yeah. Focus on the higher level things. But how did you decide on what new products to show? Andrew: In that case, part of it was what new products ... there's a change in our product development, that's going to make it so, or in our manufacturing that was going to make it to that, we're phasing out some products anyway. We always start by looking at most products over various periods of time. This is a simple way to start. I mean, there's not a lot of science to it in that respect. I think we're just looking around- Stephanie: Just seeing what it's doing well in the market. Andrew: Yeah. And what's done well on our side. Honestly, part of it is for a place to start your testing just like make a hypothesis and test it. I mean, it's not- Stephanie: Yeah. What timeframe are you looking at? When you do the test, are you looking at 30 days? Let's see how it does and try something new, or is it like after a couple of days you'll know and try something different? Andrew: Yeah. I'd say budget is probably a bigger factor than time. So if you're spending thousands of dollars a day, it doesn't take very long good answers. If you're spending a couple $100 a day, it takes a little longer. It also changes relative to your average order value. What you need is a statistically significant number of responses and really a statistically significant number of conversions. You can think of conversions as micro conversions as well. For example, a click on an ad is a conversion in a sense. Clicks as a percentage of impressions is a conversion. Because it's pretty cheap to run Facebook ads, you can actually figure out a reliable statistically significant performance in a click through rate pretty fast without having to see how those clicks convert. Andrew: In that case, it took us, I mean, I think we're got 100 bucks, when we knew that this new round of ads was way, way better performing because the gap and click through rate was so significant between the two. That's another core principle here. The larger the gap and the outcome, or the larger the disparity in the outcome, the more likely it is that it's a reliable result, if that makes sense. In that case, I think we spent between the two products, that's a total of 1,500 bucks. The whole goal of that was to test those while we went and ordered new products to try and start scaling a little bit for a larger test in the future. I didn't really care what the actual result was. The goal is a bigger goal to win bigger over time. Stephanie: Yeah, that makes sense. When talking about growing, I saw that you guys live by a central Ecommerce growth formula. I was hoping you could go into that a bit. Andrew: Yeah. This is changing a little bit in some ways. I'll give you the baseline version of it, which is visitors tasks conversion rate times average order value. This is actually really simple. Every business in the world only actually has three factors that make up the value that you get from a purchase, or that make up your revenue actually. The first factor is how many people come to your business. This could be people walk into your store, it doesn't have to be a website. But just never people who show up. And then you multiply that by the conversion rate. So, what percentage of those people buy something from you? And then you multiply that by how much they spend. Andrew: When you look at that, that will equal your revenue. If you just say, how many people get there, how many of those people buy and how much they spend when they do? That's the entirety that makes up the revenue. That's incredibly simple and intuitive in a lot of ways. But what I find is that in the fog of war, people lose sight of that very simple concept. So, they start making tests and changes without a really clear idea of which one or multiple of those variables they're actually trying to affect. Of course, those all relate to each other. For example, your average order value goes up, your conversion rate goes down, that's a general rule of thumb, it's true across everything. It's intuitive when you think about it. Andrew: A smaller percentage of people are going to buy a $1,000 item than a $10 item. As you drive more traffic, it's highly likely that you're driving lower and lower quality traffic. Everybody exists along in the world, exists along a continuum of people likely to buy your product and unlikely to buy your product from your mother, who's the most likely person in the world to buy your product to- Stephanie: That is number one. Andrew: Yes. To a subsistence farmer who doesn't have the internet is the least likely person. The farther you go from your mom to the subsistence farmer, the more expensive it is to acquire that customer. So as traffic grows, then your conversion rate is likely to go down. That's just another helpful concept, I think. These are rules of thumb to heuristics they're not always true, but that's a basic way of thinking about it. We think about those three levers in what we do and really try to understand when we test something at any point in our funnel, whether it's on the website or ad level or whatever, which one of those am I actually trying to affect? Where's the problem in my business? Andrew: I've talked with friends of mine who own CrossFit gyms, and I've said to them like ... I'm thinking of a friend in particular whose gym was struggling. I was trying to help him think this way, which of these is the problem for you? Are not enough people showing up to your gym? Or when they show up, do they not buy a membership? Or do they buy a cheap membership or you give them a month free and then they don't spend any money after that? Which one of these is the problem? That probably gets towards LTV as well, or CLV, Customer lifetime Value as something to think about in the midst of all this as well. This is where you can make it a little more complicated, but that basic principle is true. Across the gym, just like on my consumer goods websites, it's the same problem. You just have to figure out which one of those things has the highest upside at the lowest cost to fix next. That's where you should put your energy. Stephanie: Yeah, I love that. Have you ever pitched a brand to be taken over by a 4x400 that you believed in where everyone else on your team didn't believe in it? Andrew: Oh yeah. This is where it helps to be coldly rational. Gosh, I don't mean rational like smart, I'm always right. I just mean my approach is unemotional to a lot of this stuff. To the probably emotional dysfunction in other ways in my life or something like that, I'm not saying you should emulate this necessarily. But that's why there's therap, so it's fine. So, sorry? I know there's some noise there. A lot of times, if we're tweeting about a new brand acquisition. People will say privately like, "I do believe in this," or "I don't believe in this." I just started think that's like ... I think without having the view that I have in the acquisition process, I just don't even know what somebody is judging that on. People just go by their general sense of what they believe about if it's a good brand or not. Andrew: First of all, other people are not like you. Your subjective sense of that may not reflect at all what I brought population to potential customers is. Secondly, to me, you can validate this pretty clearly by looking at simple product market fit, things like margin is a huge question, which makes businesses work and it makes other businesses fail, is one of the problems of opening day. We made a huge mistake by just giving ourselves away too little margin on the products. Stephanie: What's the little margin, what do you consider small? Andrew: Yeah. Well, I think if you're going to try and grow a brand with ... I'll just tell you, we target 70 points plus of margin for brands that we are trying to grow with our method of growth. And then that's really important. If you have other growth mechanisms that might not matter as much. But for us, we want 70 points plus landed margin. We can deal with a little less than that, but if you're going to try and grow a brand with Facebook ads, you're going to need to be able to exist at a two to one return on your money on ads probably. It's hard to really beat that number, if not withstanding something like coronavirus throwing those small. So we target that. That becomes a big question for us, if we think we can do that. Andrew: Sometimes actually it's part of the first thing we have to fix for a brand is, we see supply chain processes that are in our view broken and we would say like, "We love everything about this brand. It's convergent on site, is great relative to its average order value, relative to its traffic sources." We dig into all that stuff, and say, "But your margin is not good enough, but we think we can solve that. W can help with getting your shipping cost down by repackaging it differently, or thinking about what products to focus on or not, or changing your manufacturer or something like that." We don't want to ever do that at the expense of giving people a good product. We haven't compromised on that at this point, which I'm happy about. But yeah, those are all the things that we can look at as potentially something to fix. But in our view, 70 points plus, makes the game a lot easier for sure. Stephanie: Got it. I like that point too about, what would someone know when they're doubting a brand? Because that is definitely a human flaw thinking about ... even when I'm thinking about those rubber bracelets from a while back, for me to say, "Oh, that's dumb," I don't need to be balanced or anything, or I need help with that. It's funny because it's like, well, apparently a lot of other people did because look how many people bought it. Yeah, I think that's also a good lesson for anyone starting something up. If they hear someone say like, "Oh, that's dumb, you shouldn't do that." Probably good to take a step back and be like, well, that's just one person's opinion and not let it deter you from trying at least. Andrew: Yes, especially relative to the set of metrics I have in front of me, which are going to tell me something a little bit different. This is one of the things that's so great about data is that I'm just wrong, Stephanie, about so many things in life, I just know I am. So having some source outside of my own brain that I can look at. When my own eyes are lying to me, humans are just biased machines. We're just machines of bad thinking about stuff. So, finding ways to be aware of my priors going into something and my bias going into something, check those against some sorts of truths that exist outside myself. Of course, people can lie with data and data can be poorly collected. There's all kinds of ways that can go wrong too. But in light of all those things, I just think that it becomes really helpful to do that, to go and have a source like that to go check in. So that's what we do in our process. Andrew: There's various levels of excitement about brands even internally. But there's no question that ... We sincerely believe it can work based on the data set in front of us and a few other old principals. So that's what we do. Stephanie: That's cool. We're mentioning data, stick with the data when it comes to it and don't just listen to unfounded opinions. What kind of metrics do you look at that you think a lot of other brands aren't utilizing enough? There's obvious ones like conversions and click-through rates and all that kind of stuff and revenue obviously, but is there anything that you look at that you think enough people aren't paying attention to? Andrew: There's no magic here. After we acquired 31 Bits, this jewelry company ... really super cool brand. This brand was started by women who were anthropology majors in college and wanted to provide good quality jobs to people who could not access them by nature of where they lived in the world. So they started in Uganda after a trip there and had these women making these really cool beads. This started in 2009. These women were out to change the world with this brand. It's just totally authentic, beautiful brand story around all of this stuff. When we acquired that, I on my podcast, it's called- Stephanie: What is your podcast? Andrew: Yeah, yeah. I feel so lame doing this right now, but- Stephanie: Oh, sorry, Andrew. Andrew: I know. There's a tangent there. But anyway, if somebody really wants to hear how I think about this question, I spent about 45 minutes with Taylor, the head of our agency, talking about exactly why we acquired 31 Bits. We did an episode about that. I'll find it and send it to you for the show notes as well. And then we interviewed the ladies from the brand for the next episode after that, so people could kinda hear why they chose us as well. We tried to be really honest about why we think it'll work and why we think it could fail. I would say the metrics related to that, that I care about, it's not just conversion rate it's conversion rate relative to average order value and relative to traffic sources. That's a huge one for us. Andrew: Conversion rate itself is actually so context specific that it's not that helpful of a metric. I mean, think about the conversion rate of a direct click. Somebody comes to the website, types in 31bits.com, presses enter. Let's take a 45 year old female on a desktop computer direct versus a 25 year old male on their cellphone through a display ad on the internet, saying conversion rates to describe what both of those people are doing and getting a baseline is not going to be helpful at all because the baseline for those two different customers of what you'd expect, they're so different. I mean, just the device issue you're twice as likely to convert on desktop than you are as mobile before you talk about any of the rest of the demographic's software or anything like that. Andrew: We try to really give some specificity of the context of something like conversion rate. Even one thing you'll see there is like, sometimes the brand's conversion rate will look low, but it's actually not low. The reason it looks low is because they're getting a ton of blog traffic via organic search SEO essentially. That blog traffic is technically on their URL, but it's not at all related to their product and it's not people looking for their product. Therefore, that blog traffic will have an incredibly low conversion rate and will therefore negatively influenced the total conversion rate. If you bucket that blog traffic out, it turns out the conversion and the brand is fine and their website works great and you just didn't realize that. I don't know if that example made sense. But there's- Stephanie: It does make sense. Andrew: ... there's just all of these kinds of contexts, things like that, that I think are really crucial to look at all the way around. We look at some other stuff like we've looked at entire funnel on our site, so we'll look at not just the conversion rate thing. If somebody doesn't buy something on your website, there's a question of why did they not buy? Because they made it to your website, so what happened next? Did they never add anything to cart or did they add to cart and then drop off once they got to checkout or did they never even make it to checkout or what? We look at each of those things and try to understand what's going on. Andrew: If somebody adds to cart and makes them check out and then drops off, why? The answer to that question is probably because you're shipping cost is too much a lot of times, or it's going to get shipped slowly, or they're not confident in return policy or whatever. So we'll look at some of that stuff too. We have a value of 4x400, which is understanding before you act and paired with that is hard problems require deep focus, or require deep work. The basic concept is like, before I go and throw out a million solutions, I want to really understand as clear of terms as possible exactly what's wrong. Andrew: When I hear somebody say my Facebook ads are broken, the thing I want to say is, "What do you mean? What's happening? What broken- Stephanie: What are you doing? Andrew: Right, yeah. "Is the conversion rate broken? Are the clicks too expensive? Where is the problem? Are you not getting a high enough AOV? When you say it's broken, what do you mean?" To try to help people answer that question because then it can guide where to think about the next problem. Stephanie: Cool. I love that. Yeah, that was a really good example. Stephanie: Are there any things, technology or otherwise tools that you're using right now that are maybe new that you're excited about? Andrew: Well, I'll tell you what I think that is, it's not the answer you're looking for, but I think it's the answer that I get. Stephanie: Go for it. Andrew: My answer is no I don't. We will get there to where we'll need to do that, but I just think this is a massive distraction for a lot of people. I think people love to go chase the next new thing. They'll even say things like, "well, my customer is on Tik Tok." I don't really know what that means. Yes- Stephanie: I don't really know who's on Tik Tok right now. Andrew: I'm 36. First all, I'm 36, I'm too old and I don't get Tik Tok. I've never had Facebook on my phone, so I'm just the worst social media marketer ever in that respect. I do not understand what's happening in the world. I just don't always know what that kind of thing means. I think your customers probably also want Instagram because there's a lot of people on Instagram. So I could be wrong about that, I guess. I'd be so happy for somebody to correct me if that's the case and reach out and tell me, "You're not looking at this right." Anyway, I just think it becomes a huge distraction for people to go and try and find another new thing to go do instead of to get really good in one or two areas. Andrew: We will expand channels over time. I think we're really trying to build out more search and shopping as a next step for us, that is not a new channel at all. It's actually the oldest digital marketing channel, search in particular,. I'm playing around with some ideas from SEO, but really I'm just trying to make my customer more valuable at this point. So, just trying to really get better via email, post-purchase, via my unboxing experience, trying to think about how unboxing and product experience creates retention in word of mouth. I'm trying to dig deeper and get better at the things I'm already doing rather than adding a whole lot, I think. Stephanie: With everything happening in the world right now, it does seem like there, like you mentioned early on the show, there're a lot of changes happening, especially around Ecommerce. I know you're talking about focusing on what's working and all that, but is there anything you're preparing for over the next three to five years that you're anticipating around Ecommerce trends? Andrew: Yeah, all right. This is my coronavirus beat right non. This is a really fun question and is a great podcast fodder. I do not fault you for asking it and I don't want you to hear my answer to this as condescending. But there's no possible way in the world that I could predict the future that far out. Here's what I believe about predicting the future. The more complex the system you're project predicting with the more inputs that there are there, over the longer the timeline, the harder it is to project. So, I might be able to give you some sense of what's happening next week, but then also last week, all these companies started saying they're going to pull their Facebook ad spend. Stephanie: Yeah. I didn't why I mention that, but I'm like well, that seems like it's a good opportunity then, like you're mentioning to get on Facebook. Andrew: Yeah, yeah. Stephanie: I think Zuckerberg even said they'll be back or something like that, which is just funny. Andrew: First of all, who could have predicted over that timeline, that kind of thing would happen? Before you even talk about Zuckerberg, who ... There's just so many elements. The system of macroeconomics in the U.S., before you even talk to the world, is so big with so many inputs and so complex that I just don't believe in anybody's ability to really predict that. So what I think is that it's not helpful generally to do that. I'll say three to five years, the one thing I feel broadly, fairly comfortable with though, I think even this has, there's some basic questions is that Ecommerce, as an industry, Ecommerce is a share of U.S. retail spending, will continue to grow. Andrew: I mean, I just have no possible way of predicting that. So I feel like it's a good place to be if you're in Ecom, I think you should be investing in Ecom broadly. I just don't think otherwise it's very possible to do that. I mean, just look at what we were all saying about coronavirus two months ago and the models that we were all looking at about what this thing could be. It's been devastating. I don't want to underplay that, but it has not been in the U.S. the millions of deaths at this point, at least. Who knows that people were predicting? I just look at that and go like, that's because predicting that many things for something with that much unknown is really, really hard. Andrew: My take on this is to go read Nate Silver's book, The Signal and the Noise and to hone your skills thinking about what kinds of things you can and can't project, and even how to think about projecting things. And then to go from there, which means the way you win is not by predicting the future, but by honing your fundamentals and carving really good thought processes. This is what I really believe in the most. To think about this all like poker, which is that good poker players don't win by winning a hand, they win by playing lots of hands really well and by making the right move over and over. Understanding the game that there are going to be times when they're going to be in a big spot with a lot of money in the pot and the card will come up and go the wrong way. But if they play enough big pots and enough money in it, the law of large numbers says that they'll win over time. I think that's the way to think about it. Andrew: Get really good at understanding something like visitors and conversion rate times average order value and asking the right questions about that. Get really good at following your profit margins everywhere you can . Get as much clarity about them as you possibly can that way you know where your money is going and where you're making money and where you're not. If you can do those things over a long period of time and just get good at finding good people to work with and get good at those sorts of things, you will win. So ultimately, I bought into the partnership at CTC with my own money, I'm not rich. Andrew: The reason I put my money into that is because I believe in the humans that are the partner group there, and I believe that those people overall given enough chances will win. That's the way I think you should think about your brand and your business is find partners and find brands and businesses that you believe will play the right hand the most times and are people of high character. That is part of the right hand of what you're play, you're going to have a relationship with these people. Every part of your business, if you can do those things, then I think over the aggregate, you're going to win. Stephanie: That's great. That actually took a very nice spin because at first I'm like, okay, no one's going to disagree with you that Ecommerce is going to grow. But I like the spin that you just took on it about what you should focus on instead. So, good answer. Andrew: Thanks. Yeah, I know. It's a compound answer in some ways, but it's really what I believe is true about the world. It's so sexy to say, okay, over the next month, this is going to happen and this is going to happen. Next time somebody on the show gives you that answer, bring them back on in six months and ask them what happened and- Stephanie: I was just going to say that. I think the world is still missing a little bit of the accountability piece because I see people still on Twitter, even the people who are talking about the end of the world, no one's following up with these people, how come this guy has had a billboard out around California for a long time saying the end of the world was going to happen, I guess, a few weeks ago, and it didn't? What now, are we going to follow up with him and be like, "Hey, what happened?" Andrew: Yeah, that's a very California story. I like that. Stephanie: All right. We're going to shift now into something called the lightning round brought to you by our friends at Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I'm going to ask you a quick question and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready, Andrew? Andrew: I am. But this is the ultimate challenge for me. Stephanie: This will be the hardest part of the interview. Andrew: Yeah, it probably are. All right, I'll do my best. Stephanie: I actually feel like you're going to have some great answers, that's why I've been excited to get to this. All right. If you were to have a podcast, who would your first guest be and what would the show be about? Other than the podcast that you're running now, you can't say that one. Andrew: Okay. I think it would be about exploring. Does it my guess have to be a live or can I pick anybody? Stephanie: No. Andrew: Okay. I think it would be about exploring big ideas about the world like theology, philosophy kind of stuff, but for the every man or woman. So, it would try not to be too much in the clouds, my guess would be C. S. Lewis, not because he's the most interesting thinker in the history of the world, although he's a really interesting thinker, but because he says things in really interesting ways. So, I think he would be a fascinating guy to just sit and talk with. When I think of a historical person I'd want to talk with most, would be that. Either that or a baseball ball guest. Stephanie: All right. Well, that's cool. That's a good answer. What's up next on your reading list? Andrew: Books I'm in the middle of or after? Stephanie: I'd say, you can do both, middle of and ones that you're looking back on like, that was a good book. Andrew: Okay. The Color of Law is the book I'm in the middle of right now. Richard Rothstein going through the history of government and forced racism in the U.S. incredibly helpful book for me so far. I'm three quarters away through. Highly recommended to try and get your head on straight about what's going on with race in the U.S. just pure history. It's really good. And then I am reading a Christian book called Money, Possessions and Eternity about how to use your money for compassion and care for people instead of for yourself. So, that's what I'm in the middle of right now. And a baseball book called Ball Four, which is a famous book. Stephanie: That's cool. If you were to pick a country to focus on to maybe buy a new brand from, what country would you look into? Andrew: A country? Stephanie: Yeah. If you were to bet big, I'm going to go for something in India, that's top of mind right now because I just read the whole thing between India and China and turning off Tik Tok in India. So, it's very interesting to me thinking about, if you were to bet on brands from a certain country or are you looking to go international, where would you go? Andrew: I think the answer is India. I think that's probably the right answer. The cost of reaching people in India is very cheap and India's economy seems to be growing very fast. But I'm just bullish on global economy in general. So, I think you could probably broadly pick out. In the last 50 years, massive amounts of extreme poverty have been alleviated in the world thanks to globalization and technology and all kinds of things like that. The world is a much better place than people make it sound. That's another book record recommendation, Factfulness by Hans Rosling. Go read that book- Stephanie: Factfulness. Andrew: ... it will help you look at the world totally different. Factfulness. Forget my other book my other book and finish reading that one. Stephanie: I'll link of that one. Yeah, no, I think that's where I would bet too because I think I just read that, it's a billion and a half people there only a third of them, I think have cell phones right now. They're coming online at a very quick rate. So, I think- Andrew: Yeah. I mean, it's incredible how much better life has gotten in the world for so many people. There's very hard life in the world for a lot of people, so to not to underplay that. But it's just crazy and it's going to keep happening. Stephanie: Yeah, I agree. What's up next in your travel destinations? Andrew: Anywhere- Stephanie: When you can travel. I think, just outside my neighborhood. Andrew: Yeah. I like Austin, Minnesota where my family is, hopefully in a couple of weeks, but we'll see. As far as other places, I love Boston. Would like to go with my wife there. I have a seven month old though, so the actual answer to this question is probably nowhere for a while. Stephanie: Yeah. That's my life too. I have four month old twin boys and a two year old. Someone asked me like, "Oh, where are you going to go on vacation?" I'm like, "Nowhere outside of 10 miles away." It's a mess to get into the car that would be- Andrew: Four-year-old twin boys? Stephanie: Yeah, yeah. Andrew: I think it's awesome. Congratulations. That's beautiful. Stephanie: Thanks. Yeah, it's a wild ride. All right, the last one ... Yeah, you know. What's up next on your Netflix queue? Andrew: I just watch the same shows over and over again with my wife. Stephanie: Does she get to choose? Andrew: She does most times, yeah. Stephanie: So you guys are watching Selling Sunset and things like that? Andrew: No. We watched Parks and Rec, 30 Rock and The Good Place- Stephanie: Okay, those are very ones. Andrew: ... over and over and over again. That's probably all we watch. I don't know. The decision fatigue I have on this particular issues, we just created a Slack channel that worked for media recommendations because I just don't know even what to do anymore about where to look next. So, I wish I had a better answer than that. It would- Stephanie: Let us know if you find something from your Slack channel. Andrew: Yeah. It's probably another episode of The Good place. My team is really hot on Yellowstone right now, so there you go. Stephanie: Okay. I don't know what that is, that just shows I am not with it either. So I'll have to check that out. Andrew: Kevin Costner intense ranching family season three. Stephanie: Okay. I'll have to dive into that one. All right, that was a good lightning round. Is there anything that you were hoping to cover, are there any last words of advice before we hop off? Andrew: I think just that in situations like this, I always just want to say that when somebody asks you for answers on a podcast, it's super easy to make it sound easy in some ways. But it's really hard actually to do these things and to grow business and to work in a team and all these things. So, I think the parting word for me is always just to say, it's not actually as easy as it maybe. I hope I didn't make it sound like that. It's just challenging at times. So, keep at it and surround herself with good people. Yeah, I think that's it. I think I just properly took all the wind out of the point that I was making by monitoring it at the end there. Maybe out of [inaudible 01:02:52]. That's the big piece for me, is just you can do it, it is harder than it sounds a lot of times. Stephanie: Yeah, I like it. Well, Andrew, thanks so much for coming on the show. It was a lot of fun and ... Yeah, thanks for taking the time. Andrew: Thanks, Stephanie, for having me. It's super fun.

Eni and Andrew discuss how to approach traditional religions from a place of respect. They explore some misunderstandings and how to get around them. They also talk about the realities of practicing from a distance.  Both share from their journey in two different lineages in two countries. This conversation is important in the wider dialogue of appropriation going now around traditional knowledge.  Be sure to check out the bonus episode on proverbs around this topic for Patreon supporters here.   If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe by RSS , iTunes, Stitcher, or email. You can book time with Andrew through his site here.  You can find Eni on her site here or Facebook here.  Andrew is as always here.  Thanks for joining the conversation. Please share the podcast to help us grow and change the world.  Andrew Transcript   Andrew: Welcome to another episode of The Hermit's Lamp podcast. I am here today with Eni Acho, who is an Orisha practitioner and priestess. She runs a wonderful Facebook group, but also ... website's called About Santeria, where there are lots of great conversations about the traditional practices and approaching the traditional practices of Orisha traditions, especially centered in Cuba. I think that given what I've seen more and more online and other places in conversations with people, this conversation about how do we approach a traditional religion as outsiders, is one that I think is really important. Andrew: I think that there's a lot of misunderstandings, I know I had a lot of misunderstandings or misconceptions about what things might be like. I think that these dialogues are important and obviously for my own personal tradition, but I also think that some of these conversations apply to any other traditional religion that you might approach as well. Eni, for those who don't know you, give us the lowdown. Who are you? What are you up to? Eni: Hi. My full Ocho name is Eni Acho Iya, which means the yellow dress of my mother. That's because I'm crowned to Oshun. Oshun is always associated with the color yellow. I was crowned in Palmira, Cuba and my lineage is called Palmira lineage. It's called the countryside or [inaudible 00:01:47] in Cuba to distinguish it from maybe what you might find in Havana or Mantanzas. But Palmira is one of the traditional centers of the Lucumi religion in Cuba. It was founded by the descendants of slaves who were taken to that part of Cuba to work in the sugarcane fields. After they were emancipated, they founded their own town, Palmira. Eni: It has three of the most traditional and oldest Lucumi religious societies in Cuba. The Sociedad Santa Barbara, Sociedad San Roque, and mine, the Sociedad el Cristo which is associated with the Sevilla family. A lot of people who practice Ifa know the name of [inaudible 00:02:30] or [inaudible 00:02:32] famous Babalawo's from Palmira. And that's my religious family, the Sevilla family. So I guess that's probably who I am, religiously speaking. And I've been running this website "About Santeria" for around six years, I think. As an educational website that aleyo's, outsiders can go to, to get basic questions answered. And just recently I created this page you referred to on Facebook so people can discuss some of the ideas. I'd like to invite anyone who's interested to take a look at that and welcome to the community if you decide to join us. It's a good community. I think lots of very knowledgeable priests in there and good conversations are taking place, so I'm happy with that. Andrew: I think it's great. There's lots of really knowledgeable priests, which is a great part of the equation. They're all, at least all the ones that I know, personally or through online interactions, they're all really solid people as well. Which is a really important part of that conversation too, right? Just because people know something doesn't necessarily mean anything anymore. There's this distinction that can happen between those things. That's one of the things that I also dig about that space and why I'm actually hanging out there as opposed to other spaces, where maybe people know stuff, but their character isn't as inspiring to me. Andrew: One of the things that I find really interesting is this idea of the distinction between what's going on now in a general way, and how stuff was a little while ago, or how things still are in certain parts of the world. Right? So you're from ... your practice and your connection, your family is in Palmira. What's it like there to sort of be born there and live there and practice this religion from that place, from a sort of real traditional community structure? Eni: I feel really fortunate to have had glimpses into everyday life there. I've been going there for over 20 years. And because of my work, I've been able to go and spend considerable amounts of time, like three months at a time, six months at a time, because my university here in Washington state has an exchange program with the university of Cienfuegos. And as an academic, that gave me a license, as ... the United States, it's not always that easy to go to Cuba, but because of my academic license, I've been able to go to Cuba pretty often, spend a lot of time there and really get to know the people very well. I've literally seen a whole generation of people grow up and I know what it's like from their point of view to be born there and be surrounded by this community. Eni: And I think it's important for your listeners to understand that this need that we have as outsiders, as people living in a different culture, we're always thinking, "how can I get in to that community"? Or "how can I get into the religion How do I find my way there"? It's always this destination or goal that people are looking for. And the big difference to me is that for people in Palmira, you're already there. You don't have to look for anything. It's all around you. It's in the air you breathe. And that's not to say that every single person that lives in the town is initiated in a religion, they're not, but certainly their neighbors are, or their cousin or their aunt or their grandma, people down the street. It's everywhere around you. And so if you have a concern, if you want to go get a reading done, you don't have to wonder where can I find a Babalow, where can I find a Santero? They're right there. And everybody knows them. Eni: There's a lot of accountability because literally these same people have lived there and their ancestors have lived there for 150 years and everybody knows who everybody is. Small town in Cuba, you don't have secrets. And I think that that makes it a really different experience because I've seen babies in their mother's arms at drumming ceremonies, because our ceremonies, our drumming for example, tend to be open to the public, people who live in Palmira, everybody comes and the whole family comes. So you have babies that can't even walk yet in their mothers' arms who are keeping time to the rhythm of the drum. And they are totally comfortable in that environment and they grow up with that. I've seen four year olds playing with their little stuffed animals, their bunny rabbits and teddy bears, and they're acting out an ocha ceremony that they've seen their parents do. So when you grow up with it all around you, that takes away a lot of the mystery. So it's not secretive. It's not hard to find. It's there. Eni: Our tradition in Palmira tends to be, for the most part, that we don't initiate very young children. Most people, if their family is religious, everybody in their family tends to get initiated, but they always leave it up to the individual to decide once they reach a certain level of maturity. And so typically you'll find people not getting initiated until maybe they're in their early twenties. That's changing. People now are doing more younger children, but we believe that it's not everybody's destiny to be initiated. That has to be something that's determined on an individual basis. But there are lots and lots of families where half the brothers and sisters are initiated, half aren't, and the cousin show up and they help out with the cooking and the cleaning before and after the ceremony. So everybody is involved in it and everybody feels connected to it, whether they're initiated or not. It's very comfortable. It's very organic and natural to just have it there. And that's such a different experience from what most of us outside Cuba. Andrew: I was in Matanzas last year playing for egun, for my godmother, passed away. Some of the things that struck me were, first of all, everybody knows everybody as you say. Right? You know, we're driving around the city with my godfather and he's like, "Hey, pull over" he leans out the window and has conversation with somebody and they'd keep going. Secondly, I don't know about architecturally in Palmira, but in Matanzas there are no windows on the windows, the doors are open. It's hot and you want those breezes. And so we're there doing the formal meal that's part of the ceremony and neighborhood kids who people know, or maybe they're children of people who are there, drift in, say hi, act like kids and run at the back and go and get some sweets or some food-[crosstalk 00:10:08] and they leave. Andrew: We were doing the drum in the front room and there's no ... the window's open and people are just walking by looking. People are walking by and they'll just start having a conversation with somebody who's there that they know. And it's very different than my experience of other things which it's done in somebody's house probably in their basements where do you see it? You don't see it anywhere. Right? As opposed to there. And also, as you say, driving around, you drive around and Oh, is that another drum going on over there? Oh yeah, it is. We should go by, Oh, is that another drum going on over there? There you go. You know? Eni: It's exactly like that in Palmira and it's hard to hide a drumming ceremony when the houses are so close together and all the doors are wide open. And everybody kind of spills out into the street and that interaction you were describing what the kids coming and going and people coming in and out all day. That happens literally every single day. When I'm in Palmira, I feel like I'm sitting in my godmother's house but it's like a train station with people coming and going and just, "Hey, what's going on?" and "anything going on?" And they have, you maybe know this expression in Spanish, radeo bemba, which means word of mouth, how the word spreads really quickly from person to person. So if somebody is going to have a drumming or somebody who's got an ocha birthday party or whatever's going on, everybody in the town knows everybody and they're very likely to just go by and drop in And see what's going on. Andrew: I think that this sort of leads to this idea of what does it look like to, as I said, is what are we looking to arrive in? I mean, really one of the things that we're looking for, whether we understand it or not when we start out is, we're looking to be welcomed into somebody's family. Eni: Yes. Andrew: We are looking to build a relationship and a connection hopefully to the community, to those people. I was at an event, I'd been hanging out with the Orisha community in Michigan where I was initiated 19 years now, 20 years, a long time. And we were having a conversation and somebody mentioned something and I'm like, "I was there when ... I helped make that person, I helped make that person, I helped make this person. I was there when this person was made, but I wasn't made yet". And there's this like longevity of connection, right? Whereas a lot of people sometimes come to these things with this idea that you're going to just arrive and be welcomed in, just arrive and suddenly everything's great or just arrive and you suddenly can get access or get recognized or whatever. But it's not really that way. I mean ideally it's not that way, right? Eni: No, you're absolutely right. And I think that a lot of this has to do with our understanding and we use the words in our religion. We talk about aleyo's, outsiders, strangers literally. And people in our culture tend to find that a little bit offensive. They think that means that they're not welcome. But in Cuba, that's not what it means. We simply differentiate for ceremonial purposes the people who are initiated, the Oloricha's. They have a certain role, a certain function, they do certain things. And if you're not initiated, you do other things and the rules are not identical. There is a hierarchy there. Not based on your worth as an individual or how smart you are or anything else. It's just are you initiated or not initiated? If you are, go in that room, if you're not going the other room. Right? Eni: I think Americans and, I don't know, maybe Canadians as well, people from outside that culture had a really hard time with that because we here in the U.S. where I live, we have such a consumer mentality and we identify something that we want and then we think "I'm going to get it. It's my decision, it's my choice. I'm in control of the process, here's my money, how much does it cost? Here's the money, okay, now I have it and it's mine." And they expect some kind of immediate acceptance or, "now we're the same. Okay. Because I paid my money and I'm just like you." And that is not how it works. Andrew: No, exactly. And that sense of entitlements that can be there is definitely a problem. And I think in two ways. One, as I know you do too, I get contacted by people sometimes who are like, "I need you to crown me" and I'm like, "my friend, I am not ... I don't even know." Why would I choose to incur a lifelong and perhaps more than this lifelong connection with you as being responsible for your spiritual wellbeing and to some extent your practical wellbeing forever, when I've never even met you. You know? So that's the challenge. And then the other side of that, of course, in a world where we're approaching people that we don't know who are not aleyos, but complete strangers irregardless, there's not that community knowledge of you should go see ... whatever, right? It should be because "I think they could be a good person for you, I think they could guide you, this person's a renowned diviner you should go see them." You don't have that connection. Andrew: And so all of these people, no matter what we think we know about them from seeing them on social media, they're all strangers too. And that's where so much of those problematic situations where people will be like, "Sure, yeah, absolutely. You've got the money, just give it to me, we'll be good." And then it's not good because those people on the other side are just looking to take that money and take advantage as well. It's a big problem. Eni: It's a big problem. And I think that a lot of it has to do with the fact that people just get too impatient and they want it now. And a lot of times they don't even know why they want it and they don't even actually know what it is. And so the process always, in my opinion, has to be organic. It has to happen in kind of a natural way, right time, right people, right place. And you can't force it. I think that that's the key thing. You're not in control really. It's going to happen when the Orishas and your egun want it to happen. And the more you push and resist and try to get it all to go your way, I think you're just creating a lot of trouble for yourself. Andrew: One of the expressions that ... I didn't have the pleasure to meet your magua but a very famous oricha who's connected to my godparents ... one of the expressions that I hear, they used to say a lot was, "no, no, what you need to understand is, orisha is the boss here". We as people, we have our say and we get to make our choice. And it doesn't mean we have to accept everything or ... it is a relationship. But at a certain points your orisha needs to be the ones that we trust to dictate and to find the right time and space and, and all of those things. It's like the proverb, "every head is looking for its home". Not every little person, not every house, not everybody's situation is in right alignment for anybody. Right? Maybe someone comes to Palmira and they're like, "Oh, this actually doesn't fit for me". And not pushing there, not trying to push ahead one way or another makes the most sense in that situation. Eni: My own experience I think is a good example of that because I went to Palmira for the first time just because I was invited to somebody's house for dinner and I had absolutely no intention of making ocha there. It wasn't even on the horizon for me. I knew about the religion, I liked it, I was interested in it, but kind of from an academic standpoint. And I went to dinner at a colleagues house, a professor from the university and she introduced me to another professor from the university, her neighbor who lived the next block over and he turned out to be the head of the Sevilla family, a familia who was running a casto at that time. Eni: And I just became friends with that family and visited them for years, just dropping in and having coffee and chatting with them. And I wasn't showing up on the doorstep all the time saying, "teach me about the religion I want in help me, you have to be my godfather. It happened in a very gradual way where I started getting readings. I think most of us began that way where we get readings that guide us. Eni: Then over a long period of time, year. Little by little it came out that I needed to get this or I needed to get that. I got my warriors, I got cofa de orula and then it wasn't until I got cofa de orula [inaudible 00:20:06] in eka, was that I eventually needed to make ocha, and that was really stressed. Eventually, one day before you die. And my godfather said, "Think about it. Don't do it now. You need to kind of wrap your head around this and think about what it means and take your time and do it when you're ready". And I don't know, about four, three or four years later, it just happened like serendipity. That's what we're talking about here. These things just kind of all come together magically almost. I got a sabbatical from my university, I got a scholarship, it was a grant, that paid me to go to Cuba to do this research project I was working on and that turned out to be the gear I was able to make ocha because I was able to be in Cuba. Eni: And that's the experience I wanted with those people that I have known for many, many years and it just happened in a very natural way. And if someone had said to me 15 years earlier, "Oh yes, you're going to go to Palmira and make ocha". I would have said, "what's Palmira I don't even know what you're talking about." Andrew: I think that it's, even for me, I went looking for the religion. I had been explore ... doing Western ceremonial traditions and initiatory groups for a long, long time. And I had sort of hit this place where I felt like I really needed to connect with something deep and traditional. I was trying to figure out what that was, where this was in a pre-internet era. It wasn't like you could just jump on Facebook and find a bunch of things. And eventually I found my way to the community in Michigan and even at that, although I received my elekes and my warriors, I still was involved in that community for eight, nine years before I was crowned. I was one of those things like, "yeah, someday you should do that". Andrew: You should start putting aside your money and when you have the money you should think about doing it. One of the things that I noticed with people I have conversations about it now sometimes is they get to the end of the reading and they're like, "okay, but what do I need to receive? When do I need to make ocha?" One of the questions that I often returned to them with is, "well, is your life horrible? Is your life a hot mess? Are you sick? Are you like having horrible problems? You're reading doesn't say you're magically afflicted? Is there something going on? Your life is a disaster and you need to be saved from it". They're like, "Nope". I'm like, "man just keep living your life and as you need things, stuff will surface if you need things". Andrew: And I think that's another thing that, we don't understand. I didn't understand fully myself, even though I was aware of it going into it, is this notion that within the tradition, these things are medicines of a sort. They're there to either provide very specific kinds of guidance or specific energies or to counter specific energies so that we can live our life to the fullness of our destiny. As opposed to being things that we can collect or accumulate or that give us status or those kinds of things. You know? Eni: That's exactly right. That's how I feel about it too. And, and I think it's hard for people to understand that maybe they don't want to hear it when they're so enthusiastic and so determined that this is going to be their path. That's what they want to do. And one of the things that I hear a lot, and I think you do too, is people get frustrated and say, "okay, you're telling me to be patient, but what am I supposed to do? Just sit here and wait?". They want tips, how can I do something to make me feel like I'm moving forward? And so I actually do have some suggestions if you're determined that you want to learn and do more with this religion, I have some kind of practical tips that might get you started. Andrew: I'd love to hear them. Eni: I break down things into little lists, but I think many people begin with kind of an academic approach to it. So they read books and you mentioned 20 years ago we didn't have as many resources as we have now. Now we have the internet, we have lots more books than we used to have. We have all these religious forums on Facebook and many people are offering online classes of this kind or that kind. And all of those approaches are limited. I think that's the first thing I want to stress is that there's nothing wrong with reading books. There's nothing wrong with reading stuff on the internet, but there are lots of buts attached to that, lots of limitations because yes, there are some good books out there. Fortunately, thank goodness people like Willie Ramos is writing really good books on David Brown and other people who have the credentials and the research methodology down. And what they present is accurate and very good and very helpful. And that's always great to read. Eni: But I remember when I first started looking for books on religion, there are some really wacko books out there because now anybody can publish a book. It's all self publishing. You might go on Amazon and look for books and you might find 20 different titles and you just don't know which ones are good and which ones are not good. You can read the reviews but those are always written by somebody's friend and they don't necessarily tell the truth. You have to be careful when you're reading books too. First of all, evaluate the source. Who is this person writing the book? And if they say magic moon goddess has been practicing 300 world religions for the past year and a half and she's the author of this book on Santeria, I would not necessarily consider her a reliable source because if she's not even initiated what does she know about the religion? Eni: But if it says, "Willie Ramos is a professor of history who wrote his thesis on Havana in the 19th century" and whatever, and he has written these books that are published by university presses and published in scholarly journals. For me, that's an indication that those are serious things that I can read. And even after I read them though, I remember when I first started reading some of those books like David Brown's "Santeria Enthroned". It's a great book. Eni: But I didn't understand it. I was reading it and half of what he was talking about I had no idea what any of that meant and it took me years to realize that I was going to have to piece together all of this information I was accumulating and put it into some meaningful pattern because to my knowledge, there's not one book, a Bible that you just go to and it tells you everything you need to know. Every book will tell you a little bit or something, but nobody's going to tell you the whole story and you have to decide how does this information fit in with other things. You have to analyze it. And the same is true, especially on the internet because there is some good stuff on the internet but there's also a lot of terrible misinformation and the religious forums are the same. Andrew: One of the things that's really important to understand is, not only is there not one book that can tell you everything, It wouldn't even be possible, Right? Like the scope of this tradition is so massive. And when you start talking with someone who's an elder [inaudible 00:28:41] they're a knowledgeable Babalawo, whatever right? Someone who has lived in the tradition for such a long time, the amount of things that come up that are just different situations. I was at a ceremony recently and the person running it was like, "Oh yeah, you know what, your name's Oba tilemi right? Because I know the sound for that one." And so they sang the song that relates to my ocha name, which maybe I had heard it before, nobody had highlighted it, but I never pick that up before because there are so many songs for Shango. There's so many songs for everybody. There's so many stories, there's so many pieces and ceremonies and ideas and advices that it just expands in an unbelievably sophisticated way. Eni: They say the more you know the more you realize you don't know. It truly is a lifelong, lifelong process. But reading books is not a bad place to start given all these limitations that I've talked about. Because I think the positive thing about it is that way at least people who are interested and burning and to know something, feel like they have a little bit of control. Like, Oh, I found a book, I'm so excited and that's great, but it's limited. And eventually, like you mentioned earlier, this is about belonging to a community. And so sooner or later you have to get out of the world of books and meet people in a religion. It must be a personal experience and you must become part of a community because you cannot do this on your own. Eni: And you know that's full of challenges as well because then you have to say, how do I meet these people and are they legitimate? Are they going to cheat me? Is this community a good fit for me? You have to consider things like your physical proximity, because if you're like my ocha community is in Cuba and when I made ocha there, I had to decide, am I going to be able to go back to Cuba on a regular basis? Do I have the money to be able to travel? Does my job allow me to go there whenever I want? Eni: You have to really think about these things because if you don't live near your ocha community, you've got to travel. You know that. You also have to think about the language and the culture, and this just completely confuses me. I hear about people who go to Cuba, they don't speak Spanish, they know nothing about Cuban culture. They make ocha, they're there for a week and they go home and then they say, "I don't have a good relationship with my godparent". I'm like,"well, who is your godparent"? "I don't know. Some guy that lives in Havana." Eni: If you don't speak the language, if you don't know the culture, how can you fit in that community? How can you learn anything? And like you mentioned, you also have to consider a character there of the people. Are they upright people? Are they honest people? Do they have good reputations in the community? I've been talking just about the Lukumi practice, which is my practice. But for a lot of people who are at the very early stages, they have to decide what branch of this religion do they want. A lot of people want traditional Yoruba and they want to know about those practices in Nigeria. I don't know about that. I can't teach you that. I'm Lukumi. Andrew: Well I think that's also a whole other branch, right? But the problem remains the same. You and I would likely have equal ... we'd be next to ground zero by just dropping into Nigeria or wherever. I'm just going to go hang out with some traditional people. It's a roll of the dice. Right. You just never, hopefully it's good, but you never know given that every other day I'm befriended on Instagram by a Nigerian Prince wants to help remove the curses on me if I'll just send them a bunch of money by wire transfer. That stuff is out there, it's everywhere. Eni: And not only that, but our actual ceremonies are different and we have the same basic route. But, I only know how to do ocha ceremonies in Cuba and if I went to Nigeria, I'm sure they do it differently. I can't just walk in there as a functioning priest and expect to be accepted in this community because I don't know anything about them and they don't know anything about me. Before you waste time reading a million books on Lucumi, and then you decide I don't really like Lucumi, I want to be a traditional Yoruba. Make that decision first I think. And focus on what resonates with you. Andrew: I think one of the other things that I would say if you're reading books and I'd love to hear your thoughts on this as well, is the more a book on Orisha tradition talks about what you could do or should do on your own, the more likely I am to think that it's not helpful at all. There are some folks that there where they're like, do this super power Orisha bath and it's like, well, probably not right? These things come from, ideally come from, divination or they come from the ashy of an elder who speaks of where they come from. You know, an Orisha possession.And they don't come from, "huh, I really wish that this was different, maybe I should do this thing", right? Eni: I honestly don't think a reputable priest would write a book like that. I'm sorry, that probably sounds really harsh. But the books that I value ... Andrew: Please, feel free to be harsh, that's fine. Eni: The books that I value are written either from a historical perspective, maybe I'm just a history buff. But that really, really helped me to understand how this religion came to Cuba and how it transformed and who are founding mothers and fathers were and how the religion spread. And having a historical foundation, to me, has just been so valuable. That really helped me. Eni: And I also like books, like the most recent series that Willie is doing where there's a whole book that's just about, Oshun and another book that's all about Obatala and he talks about, these are the songs and these are the prayers, and these are the herbs, and these are the characteristics of Oshun and these are the different roads. That's great. Because it gives you more profound insight into who that Orisha is. But it ... I never ever have found a book helpful that starts telling you, "okay, you're not initiated but you can still throw the shells and learn how to read them and do these spiritual baths and make up all this stuff. And you don't need a priest and you don't need to be initiated". If I see that, I throw that book in the garbage. Andrew: Yeah, that's totally fair. I think one of the things I think is also significant and understanding tradition is one of the things about understanding initiation, especially, well even becoming, just taking on somebody, becoming someone's godparents, you're becoming part of, in a way that lineage, right? That lineage is tied to those people and to those places. My lineage goes back to Mantanzas and when I was there with my godfather, he took me to meet certain people and certain Orishas who are close to the sort of origin of that. And there's this living legacy of those connections from me to my godparents, to their godparents and so on, all the way back to the beginning of this tradition as it stands now in Cuba and then beyond into sort of the, the reaches of history. And that's really significant. That's a really important part of this tradition because without that lineage, in some ways nothing happens, right? Like what happens without that. Eni: That's exactly how I feel. I feel so grateful to be able to go to a place like Palmira and [inaudible 00:37:22] when you go to Mantanzas, same thing, it's like you have a very clear sense of this is where it comes from. I'm connected to this and it gives you such a grounding that it ... I don't even know how to explain it, but it's just really powerful. And I want to connect to something that you said earlier because when you were talking about somebody just contacting you out of the blue and saying, I want you to be my godfather, or please initiate me immediately. Here's the money. I think it's important that people understand that priests have to be selective about who they choose to initiate because it's a big responsibility. Like you said, it's a lifelong commitment. Eni: And if I don't know you and you turn out to be a crazy person, I'm bringing you into my religious family. I'm bringing you into my house and you're going to disrupt everything and make everybody miserable and cause trouble. I don't want that. There really is this kind of trial period and a lot of people who want an immediate access are so put off by that. They'll say, "I went to somebody's house and I asked them to be my godfather and he said, no". Well that's because he doesn't know you and it's premature and it's like you said, why do you need to be talking about making ocha right now? There's nothing to indicate you need that. So this idea that priests should be available 24/7 and a lot of people think "Oh, our religious communities or our centers or wherever we do our ceremonies. They imagine it like some kind of community center or maybe a Christian Church where there's this physical building and there's a little office attached and the priest gets paid a salary and sits there 9:00 to 5:00 and receives people. Eni: And to my knowledge, I have never seen anything like that in our religion. We do our ceremonies in our homes most of the time. And I'm not going to invite a stranger into my home. It's my home. That can really be off putting to people who are new to the religion, but they need to understand that you have to gain someone's trust. They just think they're protecting themselves. Like, "how do I know my Godfather's not a crook and he's cheating me"? Well, that is a concern. You need to know that. But at the same time, the godparent is looking at the potential godchild saying, "is this person a good fit? Do I want to do something with this person"? And people don't like to be judged. They think, here's the money, take it, give it to me. Andrew: No, for sure. I think it's kind of like asking somebody to marry you on the first date. It doesn't make sense. And if the person agrees, well, 99% of the time you should be really suspect about that because that person's got some issues. Go deal with those issues, right? Eni: Exactly. Or it could be like "we have never met, we just know each other from Facebook. Do you want to get married"? Andrew: It's such an interesting modern phenomenon. Right? Eni: Yeah. And another thing that's connected to this that I think is really difficult for newcomers or people who are looking for the way in, is they don't understand that some knowledge in our religion is only meant for priests. It's not open library, here's all the information in the whole world that anyone can access. Traditionally it's been passed by oral communication from generation to generation. You learn it from your elders, you learn it from hands on experience, some information you simply cannot know before you've been through the ceremony yourself. So when somebody comes with a million questions and the potential godparent is saying, "I can't tell you about her. That's not for you to know", Or "that's something only priests do". People get offended by that and think, "Oh, it's secretive they won't share their knowledge". Andrew: I think it's one of those things, and also depending on what we're talking about, I think it's fair for people to ... for the keepers of the tradition to honor the tradition by managing where that information goes. And if they think you're going to be online telling all your friends about this and that and making orisha baths and selling them on the internet when you're not even initiated or whatever, then probably they're going to hold that back as well. There needs to be the evidence of respect over time. Eni: Yeah, for sure. Going back to my little tip sheet though, after the recommendation of get to know people in the religion, sometimes people don't even know how to do that because they say, "where I live there isn't anywhere, It's not visible or I can't find it". So sometimes you have to start with just a wild goose chase in a sense that you might look for some public events that are advertised maybe on Facebook or in your community. Somehow you might look for like a tribute to Oshun at the river that's going to happen on such and such a date and everybody's invited. You make a point to go to that and you can meet some people. Or maybe if you get invited by somebody you know to an ocho birthday party or a drumming, definitely take advantage of those kinds of invitations that come your way. Eni: If you don't know anybody in the religion who could invite you to something, you could even just start with universities in your city or cultural centers, because a lot of times they'll have performances of some kind that's related to Afro-Cuban culture and there might be dance ... Orisha dancing or there might be drumming as performance. There might be lectures, films, scholars who work on that topic. And that's a place that you can meet people. If you just go to the performance or the dance, you might meet somebody who would then invite you to something. So I think that's a pretty safe way to do it if you can find something like that to attend and just keep going. You're going to see the same people showing up and you'll start talking to them, they'll start talking to you. That's a good way to meet people. Eni: Botanicas, a lot of people will say, "Oh, I went to the botanica and I met somebody". I think that can be good. There are some good botanicals, but there are also some shady ones. Andrew: So many shady ones. Eni: Yeah, so many shady ones you have to be really, really careful. You can't just walk into a botanica and assume that the person behind cash register is an orisha, maybe they're not. You can't just go in there and buy a bunch of stuff and ... be very, very careful about the botanicas. It's possible you could meet somebody legitimate there, but it's very likely you're going to meet as a person who wants to scam you. Andrew: The thing is, because I run a store, right? It's not a botanica the sort of sense that it focuses on orisha stuff in that sense. But it's not that dissimilar either. I sell candles and herbs as well as a bunch of other stuff. But I think that that's where also ... do some reading and know what it's really about, and what things are and so on, that you can ask the person some questions and see what happens. Andrew: There was a time where I sold more orisha specific stuff and people would come in and they'd start asking me questions, who were initiates and then they quickly realize, "Oh yeah, okay, this guy's an initiate, he knows what's going on". You could have a certain conversation about stuff and that doesn't need to mean that you need to be an initiate to know about that. But you could be like, "Oh well, where were your initiatives? Who are you an initiatives? What's your lineage? What's your orisha?" or whatever things that can come up and you can gauge things from that person that way and sort of feel them out a little bit. Eni: Absolutely. And by all means, don't walk into a botanica with a wad of money in your hand and say, "I want to get initiated". That's not going to work out well. Or they'll say, "my uncle can initiate you, step in the back room". Go ahead. Sadly that has happened so you have to be careful. Eni: I think social media is similar in a sense that you can be on these religious forums and you can meet some great people on social media. I met you on social media. There are definitely some good connections to be made on social media, but you have to be so careful and don't just put out there, "Hey, I'm looking for a godparent who wants to initiate me". There are also charlatans on social media. You don't know who's who's going to grab you. So for me, the most reliable starting point, Sooner or later you've got to get to a point or you can go get a reading, a consulta. And by that I mean by an orisha or by a babalawo who will use the traditional divination tools of orisha to tell you what's going on with you. I have nothing against taro cards and psychic readings and all these other things. But that's not how you find out what's going on with oricha. Andrew: Exactly. I've created and made an orisha tarot deck that is not for marketing orisha things. It is for exploring and understanding the philosophies and the ideas. Exploring how some of these worldviews overlap in the worldviews of tarot. But if you go and somebody says, Oh yeah, "[inaudible 00:47:51], your Orisha with my taro deck". You should get up and leave maybe even ask for your money back, because it's not what it's for. It doesn't work that way. Eni: I think that finding a good diviner is so crucial. That's to me, a turning point because if you can find a good, reliable, honest diviner, that person is going to be able to guide you. Even if that person doesn't turn out to be your godparent, that person is going to be able to hook you up with the right people if they're a member in good standing and in their Orisha community. I think that having these kind of warning signs to look out for, that's very important. You need to go understanding that if you sit down with a diviner, you've never been there before, the first thing he says is, "Oh my God, something really horrible, your children are all going to die unless you make ocho right now". If somebody starts pressuring you like that and trying to manipulate you and make you be really afraid and you have to be initiated right now, that's a warning sign to me. Andrew: One of the things I think that people ... in life there's not always solutions. But one of the things that I understand now at this point in my journey is I've been through some very hard stuff. Last year my business burned to the ground. It's not easy, life isn't always easy. But when I got a reading about that with my elder, it was so comforting. Even though there's a ton of hard stuff still in front of me, and there are ways of which we can approach difficulties and there are ways in which we can make a bowl, do little ceremonies and offerings or whatever, to make our situation better for almost every situation. And it's one of the things that I think is fascinating and different is that there's not ... sometimes there's a miraculous transformation. Andrew: Sometimes there's something you do and it just turns everything around. But there's always something to do, even in difficult times. Approaching it with fear or putting fear into the other person's heart, it's one of the worst things that I think people could do. Divination should come with solutions as well. Advice to mitigate it. And even if it comes we have this sort of orientation where it comes Okinawa, where it comes ... what you brought from heaven. Meaning you can't change it. But we can use it. You can find ways to mitigate your suffering. You can find ways to fortify your strength. There are solutions. If people are working to make you afraid, it makes me so mad when that happens. So, don't fall for it. Eni: And the solution doesn't have to cost $2,000 all the time. There are lots of solutions that are much less expensive. We always just start out with fresh water, omi tutu and coconuts and fruit and things like that. And a lot of times a simple abo an [inaudible 00:51:13], prepare some rice pudding or [inaudible 00:51:15] or whatever it doesn't have to be $2,000. Eni: I think that if people get to the point where they can find a good divine and rely on that information and understand the process of divination and what it's for, that is definitely going to put them on the path they need to be on. Because as we said at the very beginning, not everybody needs to be initiated. If your life is fine and you don't need to get X, Y, or Z, you don't need it, you're fine the way you are. And you don't need to go into the religion thinking, "I'm going to acquire ... I want to have 30 ori shots and I want to have the fanciest soperas and beautiful decorations. That's great, but that doesn't make you a more devoted orisha worshiper than the poor, simple Cuban who's just got his Orishas in a little clay pot. Andrew: I remember talking to this person and they gave all their money to buying things for their Orishas. And they're like, "well, the orisha is going to give it back to me twice as much". But then they were always broke because they were always spending all the money they got on ... You know and at a certain point you have to be mindful of the realities of these dynamics and even if the Orishas did reciprocate one of their offerings with double the amount of investment or they were so happy they blessed them, that's great. But then when you take that blessing and you turn it ... and you don't put it to use in the way it's intended. That's not helpful either. Eni: It's not all about material wealth either, because we have to remember that this religion came from, for the most part, very poor people. People in Cuba, the old people, a lot of times they didn't have anything. If they could go out and buy one apple to give to Chango on their Orisha birthday, that represented a big sacrifice. That's all they could do. They weren't going to go get a loan to buy something better, but they spent their money buying that apple for Chango and they gave it with love and they spent the whole day sitting there with Chango and praying and singing and receiving friends and godchildren. Those people are incredibly blessed even though materially they're poor, they have a really rich spiritual life. And for the most part they have long life, good health and they would say that their life is going well. Even though from our perspective it's like, "Oh my gosh, you don't have anything, you're so poor". They have what they need. Andrew: I think that it's funny because people have often a very strong reaction to the financial part of the religion, that we have to pay money for these things to happen. And I get it, it's not always easy, it can be a lot of money, especially in North America. I mean really anywhere, any Cubans, a lot of money for people who are in Cuba. Also, it's not just people ... I almost want to say their, despite the way in which money plays such a significant role in the tradition, so many of them are less capitalists than a lot of people are They're less caught up in that consumerism. And so they are way more content with doing things and being a part of things and showing up. Eni: There are lots of different ways to make sacrifice. You can sacrifice your time, you can give your attention, your love. There are many, many ways to show devotion. It doesn't have to all be about money. Andrew: Exactly. Do you have anything else on your list there? Eni: I have a little summary. Andrew: Okay let's hear it. Eni: We've talked for a long time here, it's been really interesting. But first of all, I guess I want to stress that there's only so much that you can do alone. This is not a religion that you can practice all by yourself. There's no such thing, in my opinion, as self initiation. I really don't like it when people just appropriate and steal little parts of our religion and say, "well I don't like that other part. I'm not going to do that, but I like this little part, I'm going to do this". No, you're either in it or you're not in it. And if you're in it, it means you follow the tradition and the rules of your house. You have to show respect that way in my opinion. Andrew: I want to add to that point, I live in Toronto. There are a few other people in the area, but pretty much everybody here travels to do anything of any consequence. There are no Ochas happening in Toronto, there are no whatever. What it means to, even for me, who has dedicated a lot of time to study and to try to learn the tradition and so on. There's so much that you can only learn by watching somebody do it. And whether that's how you peel the stem out of a leaf or whether that's how you put things together in a certain way. There's all this knowledge that it's just deeply practical that nobody would ever even think to explain to you because you would just see it by being in the room. But when you're not in the room and you're reading about these things, you can learn a bunch of stuff, but still doesn't mean that you know how to do anything, which is a really, I think, important distinction to understand. Eni: Oh, absolutely. That was one of my points as well, that if you're geographically isolated from a large Orisha community, you are definitely going to have to either travel a lot or move. I feel so bad for people who say "I live somewhere in the middle of Nebraska and I want to be initiated". Well unless they moved, I don't think that's going to happen unless they can travel a lot. You have to be practical. Some people live in these isolated communities where there is no Orisha community and if they can't travel and can't go anywhere and can never participate in anything, there's definitely a limit to how far they can go or what they can do. Y Eni: You do have to be proactive like we talked about, you have to get out there and look for opportunities and connections, but at the same time you have to be really careful that you don't fall into the wrong hands and you have to be patient as things happen in their own way. Sooner or later at some point you're going to need a mentor. And usually that turns out to be a godparent who can lead you along. You can only go so far on your own. Eni: My final point, and the one that is the most important that I say over and over again, is you just have to have faith that if it's meant to happen, it will happen in the way it's meant to happen and you can't control the process. Andrew: Absolutely. I think that is a great summary and maybe that's a great place to wrap it up. For people who want to follow along more with what you're doing, how do they connect? Remind us of your websites and how do they connect with your new Facebook project as well? Eni: My website is www dot about Santeria, all one word and no capital letters aboutsanteria.com. www dot about Santeria dot com. If people go to that website, there's a little button, click here to contact me, and you can write to me and I'll write back. Or you can go on Facebook and we have the About Santeria page where people can find connections on Facebook to what's on a website. And there's also the About Santeria community forum and that's open to aleyos, non initiates as well as priests and the Lucumi. I'm keeping a focus on Lucumi because I'm not qualified to talk about traditional Yoruba and I want the focus to be on Lucumi. Andrew: Perfect. All right, well thank you so much, Eni for making time to be here. We've been talking about it for a while and I'm really glad that we finally got our time zones coordinated and made everything happen. Eni: Thank you for the invitation. I really enjoyed the conversation. Andrew: Oh, it's my pleasure.

Published Oct 20, 2017 Andrew: G'day world. Andrew Groat and Chris Hogan coming to you live from the MeMedia Studios here at Burley Heads for, Get Fact Up! And today we're talking about? Chris: Podcasting. Andrew: Podcasting. Chris: Podcasting as a marketing tool. Andrew: Absolutely. Chris: Or a content marketing tool, yeah. Andrew: Are we podcasting? Chris: We are podcasting right now. We're doing a podcast about podcasting. Andrew: We are. We're more vodcasting, so video on demand casting. Chris: Is that what it is? Andrew: Yeah. Chris: Oh, okay. Of course. Of course, it is! Andrew: I actually don't know what "pod" means? Chris: It's just from iPod, it's just stuck around since then. Andrew: Excellent. Cool, let's get cracking on! So podcasting as a marketing tool is actually really effective and I think there's plenty of high profile entrepreneurs that have been alluding to podcasting as a great way to get out to your audience, and that audio is a great way to engage with your audience, especially during those down times that people have. Those mundane tasks that people have throughout their day. Some of those might be driving to and from work, some of them might be walking to and from the post office, or while you're on lunch walking to and from the café, or sandwich shop where you're getting your sandwich. And the other ones are on the weekends, so mowing you know, I have to mow lawn so- Chris: So you listen to a podcast as well. Andrew: ... I listen to a podcast. Chris: I mean, you can listen to a podcast while you're working, you can ... yeah, driving, driving's a big one yeah. Andrew: Yeah, so some people I know that have pretty lack lustre jobs, actually do have a earpiece in one ear, and they're not that engaged with their work, it's packing boxes or something or other, and that's how they get through their day. Chris: Yeah, and stuck on the train, there's heaps of times when- Andrew: Exactly. Chris: ... when you need something like that. The thing is, the reach of podcasting is huge at the moment. There's so many platforms out there that you have access to and everyone's looking for this sort of content. And it's strange, I was talking about this today, like the success of podcast, it's a little bit surprising when you think the format would've died out by now. But I think it's because it's so personal and endearing, and when someone's done it professionally, it really gives you a window into the people behind whatever industry you're talking about. What it's like to be in their shoes and their world. And you learn really vicariously through podcasts I think, so it's a cool format. Andrew: Yeah, a lot of people that I listen to. So one of my good friends got me into listening to podcasts only a few years ago, and the first one I started listening to was Joe Rogan. Now, he's not for everybody, he swears a lot, and he's very opinionated on certain topics, but he'd get some really interesting cats on there, and they have great conversation and tell life stories that are just fascinating. Or they're researchers, they're authors, and they're sharing how they came to write about the book that they wrote, and man, there's some amazing stories that come through. Chris: It's funny, because if you think about these podcasts, and you just feel like you're getting smarter listening to them, it doesn't matter what they're talking about. You're like, "These are smart people talking. I'm getting smarter listening to this." It's just how you, especially Joe Rogan, you feel that way about him, but most of the time he's just talking about crap. Like he's just, he's waffling on about stuff. Andrew: He really is. Chris: But you genuinely feel smarter listening to it. Andrew: You do. You absolutely do. So some of the podcasts that I love is Joe Rogan, London Real was the next one that I think I got into, which is fantastic. Then there's Ben Greenfield's Fitness, which is awesome. Doctor Rhonda Patrick, she's a research scientist and goes heavily into nutrition and is big on mental health and how to improve mental health. Doctor Michael Greger, I'm not sure that he actually has a podcast, but he has appeared on many podcasts and he's also a researcher on nutrition. I'm heavily into nutrition, I love nutrition, so I listen to a lot of those types of ones. But then there's the business ones like Tim Ferris, he's got a great podcast. He's always talking about optimising time and stuff like that, and the guests that he gets on, he's talking to them about how they made the best of their lives and stuff like that. So I guess there's lots of different niches where people can actually plug into with podcasting. Like there's already heaps of podcasts out there worldwide. Chris: Yeah, that's it. A lot of people might think, "There's so much there, is it saturated?" But it's not really. Andrew: No. Chris: The amount of people watching and listening to podcasts doesn't mean saturation, because if you got a unique podcast, you're not really competing with anyone else. If you have a really general podcast, then maybe you're gonna have problems. But yeah, if you have something unique, you're only really creating some space for yourself, and if you're committed to it, you're gonna get an audience, because what you're saying is gonna be interesting to someone. Andrew: So let's get onto ... If you're not listening to podcasts and you're happen to be watching this video because you came to it via our YouTube or Facebook channel, then obviously, we are producing the video version, which I call vodcasting, and that's great. But if you wanted to listen to the podcast, there's heaps of channels to do that on, and I think there's a whole world of discovery out there for you that you're gonna be totally blown away by, once you start tapping into those podcasting channels. Chris: So yeah, I've put a couple of the big ones here. Like the obvious ones. I would say you don't want to be on all of them, just find one or two that work well. iTunes is the most obvious one, because you say, "Podcast," people just immediately think iTunes, so you kind of have to have a podcast on iTunes if you want to be in podcasting. Andrew: Yeah. Chris: It's not easy to get on. It's a bit of a weird service, so there's all these things that sort of facilitate getting onto iTunes. We can talk about that some other time. Andrew: Yeah. Chris: Stitcher. So only eight million registered users on Stitcher. It's by far the smallest, but it's only for podcasting, so if you have a podcast on Stitcher, the audience there is there to listen to a podcast, that's what they're hungry for. So if you want to be taken seriously, you should probably be on Stitcher. You got SoundCloud, which is sort of pitted as the "YouTube of audio." It's definitely the biggest audio streaming site. Andrew: 175 million unique listeners, yeah right. Chris: Yeah, there's a lot of features that are really good about it, like the inline commenting, and you could do a lot with the artwork, and there's messaging and things. My problem with SoundCloud, I've got personal issues with SoundCloud, because I used it for a while, they killed all of the community features. They pushed the pay too much, so they've really dampened their growth and they don't get taken quite so seriously now. It's good to be on though, it's good to be on. It's easy. Andrew: And there have certainly been rumours about their financial difficulties as well. Chris: Yeah. Andrew: And potentially shutting down, so yeah. Chris: Yeah, they're running a massive loss. Andrew: Don't put too much effort into that one maybe. Chris: It's there as an extra thing to be on, because it's not that hard. But the big one is YouTube, and I've put some stats here. You got 13 billion registered users. Andrew: 1.3 billion. Chris: 1.3 billion, yeah. There's a dot between those numbers, yeah. Andrew: 1.3 billion, yeah. Chris: Five billion videos viewed a day, so there's some serious reach and serious traffic happening on there. And out of all the platforms that we've spoken here, that's definitely the one to be on. It's free, user base is huge, you don't need to be registered or even logged in to watch the videos. Like all the other ones, you have to have an account, so it's really, really accessible. And also, YouTube's owned by Google, so you're exposing yourself to search engines and stuff like that. Yeah, it's got the biggest- Andrew: And just to touch on YouTube for a second, because most of you, we alluded to, "Hey, you're listening to something while doing a mundane task," whereas YouTube's a video platform and, "Well, I can't watch the video while I'm doing that mundane task like driving, or mowing." But I actually do, so if I can't actually find the podcast that I want to listen to in iTunes, I'll actually start up the video on YouTube, and ... I've got an iPhone, so I don't lock my phone, because once you lock it, it turns the video off. So then, I just chuck it in my pocket and yeah, it gets a little bit warm, because it's using a lot of battery power and bandwidth, but so what? Chris: ... But their answer to that is YouTube Red. YouTube Red's like the next version up. You don't get the ads and you can lock your phone while listening to it basically. So that's where they've turned it into an actual streaming service. Everyone's like, "I'm not paying for YouTube," well everyone pays for Sound, everyone pays for Spotify, everyone pays for iTunes and stuff, like that's not really that much of a jump there. Andrew: Cool. So I mean, there's heaps of niches out there that are probably undiscovered that absolutely anyone could start up a podcast on. I think one of the biggest downfalls of podcasts is the fact that it does cost a little bit of money to get started, and it does cost money and time to keep operating, so absolutely we need sponsors. So Joe Rogan, I feel, is probably one of the best examples for sponsors, and Tim Ferris. These guys, when they deliver a sponsorship message, it's always at the beginning, and they always do it from their own personal experience. So that- Chris: That's right. It's in line with what they're doing and it's very honest as well. They're like- Andrew: It's authentic. Chris: ... "So here comes a sponsorship message." And it's always about stuff they use, like for us it's Rode, but we're literally using the Rode microphones right now, so what's the big deal saying, "We're sponsored by Rode?" Right in front of our faces right now, so. Andrew: Exactly. So those guys, when they actually do deliver their messages, they're absolutely saying, "From personal experience I love this product because ..." And then they tell their own story. They put their own flavour in it, they put their own language in it and if they want to swear, that's what their audience wants. Chris: Yeah. Andrew: So I think, if you are gonna make the decision to embark on a project, make a decision whether or not you're gonna swear or not, who's your audience, and then match your product to fit that audience. Hardware. Getting started, we want to just break into it really briefly. We've got some kit here that actually allows obviously the two of us to talk to one another in the same room. We can have up to four and I think even six people in the same room with the kit we've got, but most of you are probably gonna start out either on your own or with one other person. So, let's just cover some of that gear. Chris: So, you've got your Rode Podcaster Mics. They're good because they're USB powered, it can go straight into a phone if you don't want to have the whole mixing desk set up. Pretty cheap. How much are they, because we got a couple of those in there and they're like 160 or something like that? Andrew: Oh, so the Podcaster Mic is different to what we've got here. It's actually a white version and these are the Rode Pro-Caster. The Podcaster will plug into a USB on a laptop, so that's really good if you're a one-man-band. Chris: Yeah, it skips all the extra hardware and stuff. Andrew: Absolutely. Then, if you do actually go to multiple mics, then you'll potentially need a mixer, or sorry, you will need a mixer. So there's different cabling and stuff. Not too hard to figure out once you've got the mixer, because obviously you just match that hole with that hole on the mixer. And one of those great mixers is a Yamaha. Chris: Yeah, they're cheap. Andrew: Yeah, they're pretty cheap. We've actually got a ... What do we got? A Zoom H-6, which is six channels, it allows up to six channels, but it's just a little bit more investment. So close to, I think, $700. Chris: Well, the good thing about those is they're super portable. The idea of that is to be able to podcast anywhere and do live video and all that sort of stuff we do. Then the next step is if you want to go video, you're obviously gonna need a camera. So you start with the Sony Handycams, they're like 500 bucks each to 4K, they're great. Andrew: Yeah. Chris: Next one up is you got the Sony NX. I'll probably stick with Sony for this sort of stuff, but you got the Sony NX range, which is what we're using right now, but that's a bit of a jump up. If you're gonna go with video, you also need lighting. Stick with LED lighting. It's cheap, super bright. It's what we use here. And then you got boom arms as well, which is, they're just handy to have. It's really good because you can manoeuvre around and things like that. Andrew: They're Rode boom arms as well. They either clamp directly onto the desk or they actually give you a plugin if you want to drill a hole, you can fit them directly into the desk. There's heaps of videos on how to set up podcasting studios. Actually, Rodes got some good ones on their website. This is just meant to be, I guess, an introduction as to why we think it's good. Yeah, a little bit of kit, and get out there and have a crack I reckon. Chris: So why would you do it? Honestly, it's one of the best forms of content marketing. It's why we're doing it. We're literally doing a 15, 20 minute video just showing our expertise in podcasting. It's a great way to showcase yourself in the industry, isn't it? Andrew: It is. It is. Chris: And people like listening to it. It's great. It's not often you get a captive audience and you get to showcase your skills. Andrew: Absolutely. Chris: I think that's where it's good, yeah. Andrew: And of course, I mention it every time, if you do want MeMedia to help you with your podcasting, or vodcasting for that matter, we do have all the kit here, so absolutely you can hire this space, or hire us to even set you up. Why not? We can give you plenty of tips and tricks around actually doing that, because once you embark on the video space, then how many cameras are you gonna have? Then it's a matter of editing and all that sort of stuff. There is cheaper ways to do that, and we've spoken about that before, that's live video, yeah? Chris: Yeah, for sure. Andrew: We've spoken about that before, so go back and review that episode, it's really cool. I think that's all we got time for today? We're trying to keep it a bit short. Shorter? We won't even go into predictions. Let's keep it nice and neat. Thanks very much for watching Get Fact Up! Thanks very much Andrew. Chris: No worries, thank you. Andrew: And keep watching. We are on YouTube, Facebook and our website is memedia.com.au. Cheers.

Andrew and Chiron discuss shaman sickness, transformation, and growth – and all the things that pretend to be those real experiences. They discuss authenticity, how to discern if an experience in real, and approaching spirits. They also get into talking about the invitation to collude with with the problematic elements of our histories and the world in general.  They also recorded a bonus recording where we revisit the theme of shade and Chiron shares a bath anyone could do to clear themselves and do some healing. This can be found by becoming a Patreon supporter here. If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe by RSS , iTunes, Stitcher, or email.   You can find Chiron on FB here and on his website here.      Thanks for joining the conversation. Please share the podcast to help us grow and change the world.    Andrew   You can book time with Andrew through his site here.  Transcription.  Andrew: Welcome to another episode of The Hermit's Lamp podcast. I am here today with Chiron Armand to talk about everything because one of the things that I appreciate having followed their orbit for a while is they do a lot of different stuff. They practice a lot of different traditions. But I think that one of the things that's inspired me about having them on is they seem, from my point of view, to do it with a lot of integrity, which I think is something that can be very difficult or sometimes just totally lacking when people are involved in a variety of different paths. But for people who might not know who you are, who are you Chiron? Tell me a little bit about yourself. Chiron: I'm a dude from Queens, 33 years old as of the time that we are recording this. I'm a Taurus with a Pisces rising and Leo moon, Venus [inaudible 00:01:04] Mars in Capricorn and I happen to be a spirit initiated shamanic healer with some initiations in a few other traditions including Haitian Voodoo as in Malidoma Somé. I am the founder of impactshamanism.com and I've written a couple of books on magic and am hoping to move more into my artistic life because I also have a background in the arts and academia that has been not as flourishing as I would've liked it to be over the past few years as I've gone through various virtual experiences and stuff, but I'm finally regaining my footing when it comes to which parts of my expression that are ratchet and nerdy and all that. Social media has been a fun place to remember aspects of myself that I haven't been able to play with [inaudible 00:02:01]. Andrew: Yeah, it's always interesting. I find that for sure, as time goes on, things come back. Right? I mean, I went to art school right out of high school, graduated art school and I was like, "Fuck this business." The art scene's horrible. And I [inaudible 00:02:21] for a long time. But those pieces return, right? Which I think is interesting. And it's interesting how and when they return as well. Chiron: A former teacher of mine would say, "Nothing true is ever lost." And that is something that's been really near and dear to my heart. Especially if you are someone who has experienced a lot of loss or a lot of initiatory descents, it'd be really scary because you're in the becoming of something new, perhaps even over and over and over again. But things come back, things come back and its really beautiful when they do for sure. Andrew: Let's talk about that, the initiatory descent. Tell me what you mean by that because not everybody's necessarily going to know that term or have and idea about it. Chiron: Sure. When I'm speaking of initiation, I'm generally speaking of one of three different kinds of things, but number one, the most important thing when I'm thinking about initiation is was the initiation efficacious. So, I'm talking about what we often consider to be initiation, the idea of a spiritual teacher, a priestess, a mambo or ouanga or something or tata. I have been initiated into [inaudible 00:03:52] initiated into Palo. I have been [inaudible 00:03:58] human beings who had certain licenses who then put me through a ritual process on the other side of which I became someone new. And my experience of being initiated into certain traditions, there are some similarities no matter what. There's often some kind of a stripping of way of that which you were. [inaudible 00:04:22] it shows up in different ways. I often think of the myth of the descent of Inanna. You have this springtime goddess who's moving through these, I believe, seven portals into the underworld. At each stage she literally, she's having an accessory of piece of clothing removed. So, initiation can happen under the tutelage of a spiritual teacher. Initiation is also something that life is doing to us all the time. We go through these cycles [inaudible 00:04:56] life grabs us by the neck and we lose things. We experience a divorce. Our house burns down. We lose a job that we've had for 30 years. We are being forced through a death experience on the other side of which is rebirth, but first you have to recognize that the death is happening, surrender to it and if you don't do that, and we don't, we resist it, we're like, "Oh fuck no. I like this amount of money. I like this lifestyle. I like this person who is probably not too great for me." We all love, we have a very death resistant culture. Andrew: Or even if you don't like it, that experience of I don't actually know what else to do. Chiron: I don't know [crosstalk 00:05:45] Andrew: This is all I can see and I don't know what else there would be if I let go of these things. Chiron: Absolutely. And side note, one of the things that's been really interesting to me as I'm trying to make sense of some of our societal ills, I have been looking a lot at what I consider to be a certain individual and collective stagnancy that occurs that makes us particular vulnerable to possession through our refusal, individually and collectively, to die, to die, to die well and become something new. If you've been avoiding a good death energetically for 30 years, then you're just a really stale individual and just like water that is stagnant, it's going to attract flies. So, that's just a side note. Life is always trying to... There's obviously initiation by spiritual teachers.  There's the idea that life is always supposed to be trying to initiate us. Also, there's another piece here that's between spiritual teachers and life, which is I am a strong believer that we are supposed to be initiated into adulthood, the killing off of the child self. That does not occur in our culture. That's another staleness view of us all as wounded children walking around in adult bodies and that's not cool. And then the third initiatory kind of stuff I'm talking about is spirit initiatory stuff that sometimes a god shows up or a deity or a spirit or even an energy. I think that this doesn't get any play, but it happens. A craft can come and initiate you. Suddenly, you start seeing books about knitting everywhere and you're like, "Whoa, I am dreaming about knitting," and sure, that can be backed up by weaving deities and the lineage of grandmother spirits who are [crosstalk 00:07:50] Andrew: [crosstalk 00:07:50] ancestors, right? For sure. Chiron: Exactly. And energy, whether it be deity or ancestral energy or even a gift can absolutely move into our life in a shocking and overwhelming way, demanding our attention, demanding that we bring our attention to it and that can be very harrowing. Andrew: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Well, and I think that those kinds of transformations on all levels and they're not easy usually. Sometimes they are. I mean, I've been through initiations. When I spent my time in the OTO doing Crowley derived ceremonial stuff, I would always know that I was ready for the next initiation because I had a dream about it, that I was literally walking into the temple and there I am and some of the elements after on the other side of the initiation, I was like, "Oh yeah. Look at that." There's not the whole piece but it's pieces of it in the dream state and it was very interesting to have those [inaudible 00:09:10] and in that case, the work was often impacting me ahead of time. It would start. I'd be like, "Oh, I can feel the itch. The next initiation's coming because there's some turmoil here," and then I have the dream and then I work on the turmoil and then I have the dream about the ceremony and then at some point not too long after usually, then I get the call where it's like, "All right, we've coordinated a date for you. You'll show up on this date and we'll do the thing." And then in that case, the formal side was more of a cap on the work. Like a completion of the work and an opening to whatever is next.     Chiron: You can totally feel that door just starting to become [inaudible 00:09:56] if you have dreams, energy of slightly discomfort, a new opening is beginning. Andrew: I'm always curious about this from people because to be completely honest, I am somewhat cynical about spirit led initiation. Not because I don't believe it's true and not because I don't believe it happens, but because of all you need to do is go on the internet and all the BS that shakes out from that sometimes. Chiron: [crosstalk 00:10:35] Andrew: From your point of view, how does a person who's feeling a connection with an entity, with an ancestor, with the stuff, how do they differentiate between an ego thing, between something that's real versus maybe getting in their own shadow and ego stuff. Chiron: Get good divination, preferably from someone with a spirit centered practice. I say that because there are so many different kinds of diviners and I love all of them. I love us all. Kind of.  That's the shade part that we were talking about. Andrew: We'll get to the shade part later. Chiron: Well, I have to allow myself to be bitchy where I think it serves. There are so many amazing diviners. There are individuals who use tarot in very psychological model. I myself have benefited from spirit workers who are psychotherapists. We're all intuitive. Sometimes I have to get out of being spirit centered. I have absolutely benefited from friends of mine who are far more grounded in Midgard, in middle world who say, "Chi. Chi, get [inaudible 00:11:59] fucking 401K Chi, 401K." [crosstalk 00:12:03] Andrew: [crosstalk 00:12:03] do your taxes. Chiron: Exactly, do your fucking taxes, Chi.  But I think that when someone is thinking I might be encountering the numinous in a profound way, then go to someone who is grounded, who has encountered the numinous in a profound way. Absolutely, experience some of my earlier shamanic initiatory illness experiences I knew I had experienced something and I had some ideas about what I experienced, but then I went to spirit centered diviners, all of them in different traditions and they were able to say, "Yes, this happened to you. This is exactly what you think happened [crosstalk 00:12:55] fuck dude, that was real. Here are some next steps." [inaudible 00:13:00] profound being nothing if it doesn't become actionable. I have a friend who, I'm here in Guatemala in a cool ex-pat city that's also, I like it, I like the vibe, but nearby there's Lake Atitlan where there are various small towns which are more touristy than others and I have an ex-pat friend who is currently volunteering at a hostel there and he was like, "You totally got to come down, Chi. It's going to be amazing. There's drum circles and cool shit and a lot of people in white cotton drawstring pants doing ayahuasca and injecting frog poison in their arms," and I'm like, "Okay, that's a lot." But what struck me was that no one's integrating their experiences. They're just like, "Yeah, I shoved frog poison in my arm and I almost died. It was crazy 30 minutes." And I'm like, "And then what?" Andrew: Yeah. For sure. Chiron: And so, there's that descent into [inaudible 00:14:04] initiatory experience [inaudible 00:14:08] but then there has to be an ascent. You have to come back. That's the whole point. Andrew: Well, when I was 14, I was in the Dominican Republic and I was driving a motor scooter and I got hit head on by a dump truck and almost died. I spent a long time, first of all, I spent a year learning how to walk again. Physically it was really, really challenging. But also, that question, "Okay, so this happened, now what?" And the now what became I'm going to read everything that I can find. The now what became I'm going to run into spiritual people and I'm going to be cornering them and asking them questions and so on and so on. And that process of trying to make sense of a thing. I mean, there's the psychological level, there's the why did this happen level, there's all that stuff. I think that that's the challenge with a lot of these things, you know what I mean? I spent plenty of time in my early 20's joyously exploring psychedelics and other things and again I had this really profound experience and I was like, "Well, now what?" And the now what was I don't need to do this anymore, I need to go do other things. I need to get to this place without anything else and experience it directly. So, I think that that process as you talk of it, it's amazing to have an opening experience. It's not amazing to have a horrible experience like getting hit by a truck, but it's amazing from a certain perspective, I suppose. But it's a question of what are you going to do with it. What does it mean? How does it change your life? How does it change your self, your sense of self? I think that's really integral to these kinds of things.  Chiron: Sure and oftentimes we need people on the shore with their arms outstretched welcoming us back and helping us come back, whether that is the spiritual people that you're cornering, whether that is the people who helping you move through various initiatory experiences in the OTO. Where not supposed to be doing this alone, so our collective lack of understanding of initiatory process is tremendously to our detriment individually and collectively. I absolutely hit a point in my initiatory illness stuff, where I was just desperately trying to get back to the human world and to the stable and to quote/unquote real and was flailing terribly. And through a perfect, I mean, utterly profoundly perfect scheme of synchronicities, was led to another spirit initiated person, who called me up like, "Hey, let's talk about some essays I just wrote," and they said some key words that actually showed me that they were safe enough to share what I was going through with speaking with them because I had been being gaslit by a lot of people. And those keys words [inaudible 00:17:32] and they were like, "You need to come and live with me. Come live with me." And I actually moved in with him for three months and those three months, they gave me the space and time and knowledge to better understand what had happened to me and the [inaudible 00:17:53] to finish piecing myself back together. Andrew: I think that brings up a really important point too. People need to be safe. There are lots of people who that are like, "Oh yeah, you're totally having this experience," and "You're meant to be the next great whatever." And I think that the more people are selling you stuff in terms of ideas and whatever and big pictures, again, the more suspect I tend to be about it. Chiron: Absolutely. Andrew: I think that there comes this place, point where it's like, "Yeah, you're in the middle of some shit and you got to patch that together." It's so much different than... I get people occasionally who get sent to me and essentially the question is, "Am I insane or have I made contact with God directly," or whatever. And this particular person I'm thinking about, they were hanging out with all these people who were telling them all this great stuff and what it meant and how wonderful it was that spirit was moving in and they would lose days to possession and whatever and this and that. And when we sat down and we flipped some cards, I'm just like, "No. It's none of that. You need to go, preferably right now, to the hospital and say 'I'm hearing voices, I'm having psychotic episodes and delusions. I'm losing time.'" And they had a big emotional purge about it and then I don't know what they did because they left. And I don't actually know them. But it was one of those things where, depending on what people are telling you and the bigger the crown they're saying is on your head, the more suspect you should be of it, I think.  Chiron: For sure there's a famous anthropology story. I forget exactly the cultural context, but there is a woman who is experiencing or expressing certain symptoms regarding illness and madness and you have the ethnographer there, the anthropologist there who is watching what's happened and some shamans are called in from nearby town to actually come in and do divination and say is this person going through shaman sickness. Is this person in an initiatory illness experience? And the shamans end up agreeing no. This person is actually just experiencing symptoms of mental illness. And it's very interesting because the anthropologist goes on to say, "Well, you know, this is actually evidence of the issue of patriarchy in the tribe and that the woman was of a lower economic class," [inaudible 00:20:56] rather than accepting the spirit centric animistic view of, "No, the shaman said that she's not." This is actually nothing political. This is actually not what's going on. Get thee to a hospital. Andrew: Well, and I think that that's a thing that the western mindset struggles with. That it is possible to have a concrete solid answer. People feel that Oshun is visiting them, something that I run into as a priest of Shango in Afro-Cuban lineage. People show up and they're like, "Oh yeah, Oshun's talking to me." And I'm always like, "Well, I don't know. Maybe." I'm like, "But if you want to find out, there's a way to find out." There's traditional divination, there are these things that can give us answers. And almost everybody who gets the answer that's "no" doesn't accept it. This idea that we could get an authoritative, 100% reliable answer to a question about things like that is something that people really struggle with because they won't look for other reasons. Instead of just being like, "Okay." Orisha says, "No." "Okay. What do I do now?" Chiron: Well, what do I do now is a really important question too. We're struggling with a tremendous lack of meaning in our culture. Identity is a huge issue [inaudible 00:22:43] and we're all supposed to be having experiences of the profound and some understanding of the intrinsic profundity of our own true nature and being denied that, but having a soul that is wired for that. We're really fucked, frankly. We're so badly fucked. But don't take this one cool thing that tells me that I'm more than are rat race away from me. Like, "No, I had this dream, it was a golden woman, it had to do with a river. It has to be this. Don't take the first time I'm experiencing some level of profound meaning in relation to my life away from me." Andrew: Well, yeah. This question of that identity is one that I am fascinated by. How do people construct identity and how do people find identity. And in some ways, I've definitely talked about this on the podcast in a few places, especially probably on the Stacking Skulls stuff, about this notion that a lot of the [inaudible 00:23:56] magic that I do for myself, I term it as identity magic. It's how do I change my consciousness to identify myself in a different way to make things possible.    But yeah, people are often looking, it seems, for the identity, the end of the searching for identity, end of the question of who we are and I don't know when that happens. If you've found it, you let me know, but I feel like it's a continuous set of questions. Chiron: It is a continuous set of questions. I think that one of the things that I've been most blessed by was my working for some kind of a teacher who really focused on the idea of the authentic self. That you actually are here with a purpose and understanding certain aspects of that purpose can give you an idea of some of the things that you're here to do. So, bring your attention to that. That has shown up for me in big mundane ways like, obviously I have a better understanding that I'm supposed to be doing certain things like this here and there, but even the small ways. I'd be like, "I'm going to craft a spell. I'm going to craft some magic," and the push that I've experienced in the spirit world, like, "Make sure you include song in that." I'm like, "[inaudible 00:25:21] yeah, I used to sing as a kid," but that was a piece. That's one of the pieces of my soul's purpose energy, is music is there. We are this beautiful charismatic energies, but most of us have no idea what that prism consists of. So, even getting a little bit of understanding of, and it's not just an understanding, it's really a remembrance of little remembrances of who we are. Which is also really helpful when it comes to protection, so that you can stop listening to every voice, human and nonhuman, about what to do. There's almost nothing more valuable in the cosmos than the human heart. And human heart is easily hijacked, easily persuaded and influenced. You got to get that shit on lock. Or at least start who am I? What am I doing? Why am I [inaudible 00:26:32] here? And make sense of it. So you have understanding of what you have to [inaudible 00:26:38] because that trickster spirit hiding behind that Oshun face wants that heart, girl. It wants to eat you.  Andrew: Yeah, for sure.  Well, and I think that [crosstalk 00:26:55] Chiron: [crosstalk 00:26:55] someone's knocking on my door. My apologies. I know what I wanted to say next, actually. Andrew: Yeah, go. Chiron: There's also an article going around, very interesting from a number of perspectives. It's an article, the title, I believe is called, Shaman's View Mental Illness As Something Different Entirely. It's a very interesting article because on the surface, the image often shared in relation to the article is that of a South American medicine person. While the article is referencing a West African medicine person. This is just, I'm a nerd. The article is referencing the work and teachings of Malidoma Somé, who is a Dagara elder and who's written about mental illness and his experiences of psychiatric hospitals here in the west and the oftentimes spirit influences that he sees going on in regards to mental illness. Never does he say all mentally ill people are shamans. But that's kind of the takeaway that the article provides and that most people who are sharing it seem to have... And it's extremely harmful and reductive of the vastly different states that we can experience [inaudible 00:28:31]. Is there a link sometimes between spirit work and mental illness or experience of madness? Absolutely. I fall into that category. But- Andrew: And it goes the other way. Being bipolar, being schizophrenic, having a wide range of certain kinds of mental illness makes one susceptible to spirits coming around in the same way the being stagnant, we talked about earlier, makes people susceptible to spiritual complications. But there's a big difference between a spiritual complication and what you're talking about here as an initiatory sickness or solely caused by a failure to be aligned with your destiny or whatever. Chiron: And it also comes back to the identity issue that what one experiences in terms of mental illness or spiritual intensity stuff. None of these things necessarily mean forever. Some of these experiences and states are temporary. But in our desperation for identity, give me something to call myself, give me something to be besides a consumer and capitalist. Andrew: We could just end the episode right thing. Just big bold quotes. "Please, dear God, give me something other to be than a consumer and a capitalist." Chiron: Yeah, yeah. Andrew: Right? Yeah. Well and I think it's fascinating because this article really talks about something that I wanted to ask you about. Which is, depending on the backgrounds people come from, you'll hear different ideas about what's going on. And some people have much more, animism is a word that people tend to know these days. But really, a spirit rich world. Because I think of it before people started using animism. I remember talking to, because the first store I worked at was 80% Caribbean clientele who would come for readings. And they'd be like, "Oh yeah. They've got a disagreeable spirit on them. Oh, they've got this on..." and everything was a spirit. I think that my question for you is how do was engage animism? How do we think about these ideas because I think that they're true in certain ways. And what do we do with them? Does that make sense? Is that even a question? I don't know. Chiron: Well, I remember reading in my very, very early days of animism and solitary neo-Wiccan practice, always coming across walkers between the worlds and all that. Became the walker between the world and it was like, "Oh, that sounds so cool and so sexy." And here I am, 12 years later I'm like, "Oh fuck it's horrible! It's just so complex." And again, you're not supposed to do this alone. I can't do this alone. My life has, to a certain extent, very, very often been far more spirit centric than is healthy than is healthy for a person who lives in a body. So, again, coming back [inaudible 00:32:17] the ascent, coming back out of initiatory experiences and the troubles that I've had with coming out of initiatory experiences. And then there are people who have the opposite experience. They're living solely in a western consumerist secular materialistic model and as much as we're told this is satisfying; the next step is to go to college. The next step is to have a kid. They're not satisfied, so they need someone, because again, we can't do this alone, who has that access to the other side. I think we [inaudible 00:32:57] I'd like to see us culturally become more spirit centric than we are. Yes, not because I just want to jerk spirits off, but because I think that our relationship to the spirit world offers us a lot when it comes to understanding of right relationship. But I think we need both. I think we need both sides. Andrew: I wasn't anticipating this episode to be a tour de force of identity and good boundaries and groundedness, but we're coming back to these ideas. I think that it's important. Mostly, I just do my work, to be honest. My own initiatory practice and my God kids and stuff, that's one piece of time, running my own business and reading for people and doing work for people and running the store is plenty of time and then you throw a couple kids into the mix and you try and have some time to have fun it's like, "Man, that's all the time I've got." I tend to drift in and out of looking at what's going on in other places in terms of social media and so on. And maybe we're sliding into the shade part of the conversation now, so we'll see. Chiron: We are. Andrew: But, it's interesting to me what counts as animism. And for me, there's this question of does everything have energy? Absolutely. Does everything have a consciousness that we can interact with and benefit from interacting with? Meh. I become less certain about that at a certain point. And I think that this question of animism, for me, is one of where are the limits of it? Where are the values of it? What is functional? I remember, I had the pleasure to spend a bunch of time with done indigenous elders for northern Quebec and one of the things that we talked about when they were talking with me about the energies that are around me and people's reactions to them and stuff was like, "Yeah, some people be worried about that, but I don't worry about it. We don't worry about it." Like if something shows up, the question is what can we put it to work on? What can it do, what can it accomplish in this situation? And they said specifically the phrase, "If the devil shows up, that's fine. We just put them to work too." But for me, with this question of animism, there's this functional piece that I'm always curious about and that I don't always see in other practices. And that may well be because I don't understand the internal process that they're doing with it or maybe because it's just not present. But I'm curious, for you, how do you think about animism? What are your relationships to the boundaries of that or engaging with that at this point in your journey? Chiron: At this point in my journey, I think a lot has to do with the local for me. The local and what needs to be paid attention too. And that's going to be different for every person. And I think there might be things that are particularly exciting to me or interesting to me and I have to be aware of my biases in that respect as a professional spirit worker who is also doing readings and stuff. What biases am I generally bringing into my readings? What ideas? What has been [inaudible 00:36:53] to me? What have I found interesting or have survived through that might have no bearing on the life of my client and might even require me to say, "You know what? I'm going to send you for a referral to this other person [crosstalk 00:37:06] since I, in terms of the boundaries of animism, I'm currently speaking to you via my laptop on my desk, neither of which I make any offerings to or generally consider a conscious [inaudible 00:37:21] of land and house spirits because those kinds of energies have fucked me up to no end in the past in tiny ways that I've had to gain an awareness of and my relationship to and tend to those kinds of relationships in different ways. And going back to what you were saying about the indigenous elders from Quebec, how do we put at that time to work, it reminded me a little bit of something a client said to me recently after a spirit helper's consultation. Everything in my work is highly actionable. If you have a session with me that is especially spirit oriented, at the end of the hour or hour and a half, what I'm generally telling something at the end of every session is I know this was weird, profound, crazy, interesting, resonant. The last thing I want you to do is leave this session thinking 10 years from now, "I had an interesting experience with a shaman who told me some weird things and..." No. You have homework. There are things to do. Everything here is actionable. Some of the things I have expounded upon were to give you a better felt sense of the reasons why this is actionable and why this worthy of your attention. But all of these energies are meant to be cultivated. There are actions to take. Everything is about being highly actionable. Andrew: Yeah, I think of it like I don't want people to leave a session identifying with something. Chiron: Yes. Andrew: I remember reading for this person and they just like, "Yeah, yeah, you're right, that's my problem, that's this, that's whatever. That's great advice. Yeah I should do that. Whatever." And we finished the whatever amount of time we had and they were like, "Oh, but I'm a Gemini, so I just never will." And I was just like, "Wow. Man that identity is so destructive to you." And I think that my time with Crowley and the Thalamic stuff was really helpful. There's a lot of it I've left behind at this point. But one of the ideas that comes up there is success is the proof. You do a thing, you take the action and something happens. Or there's an alchemical saying that I came across at one point where it's like, "Work and be free." Like, "Show up and do the work." Do the things and then the rest of it comes from there. And it's not about coming to divination to create or solidify an identity, but to learn to do the actions that make the change. External, internal, whichever.  Chiron: Work and be free. I love that. I'm taking that. Andrew: Yeah. I'm actually going to make a little piece of art that goes above the door to my studio that just says that so that I can be like, "Yeah. Why am I here today? Oh, I'm here to do that. Okay. Why are other people here today? For me to facilitate them doing that." Chiron: Yeah. For sure. Andrew: All right. So, let's talk about shade then. Now that we've done all that stuff, let's talk about shade. I enjoy your Instagram because it is delightfully full of shade. And especially in ways that... because sometimes shade is just straight up meanness in a way that I don't dig. I'm just like, "Eh, that's not really funny. You're just being a jerk now for no good reason." But tell me how you think about shade. Tell me how you approach this. Because I actually think it's one of your magical works, the way in which you go about it. Chiron: I'm someone who has spent a lot of time in this lifetime trying to be very nice and trying to be very good and wanting to be loved. And it is so at odds with certain energies that show up in various traditions of my life that do not give a fuck. They really just don't give a fuck. And part of my own healing has been becoming someone who gives less of a fuck and has been becoming someone who is not afraid to speak my truth. As corny as that sounds and After School Special as that sounds, it can be a real issue for people who've struggled with boundaries throughout their life, for people who might even have a performance background and are very used to acting and trying to be palatable. And the year that I finally come to understand. There's also a story we tell in our collective mainstream new age spirituality that someone who does the work that I do is supposed to be nice. And [inaudible 00:42:42] someone who traditionally actually supposed to be very ornery. Actually traditionally someone like me is very ornery and frightening and it's been like, "Okay, I should accept that." I should accept that I have come to have certain experiences in this lifetime and see certain things that really if anyone saw them, they would probably be, consider humanity somewhat distasteful and that's okay. The parts of me who are sometimes fed up with individual and collective bullshit are totally valid. It is not my job to quickly bury that so that I can coddle everyone. I do think that there is a tremendous lack of comfort that [inaudible 00:43:34] harm in a real nurturing, rooted sense of identity, etc., etc. however, when it comes to certain topics and certain ways of being, especially when it comes to other spirit workers, I think that it really serves me as a way of calling us in to have some shade and to be a little bit bitchy. Yeah. So, that's where I am with shade right now. There's a lot I don't share that only the people closest to me might hear. But I [inaudible 00:44:07]. Andrew: And by the way, half the listenership was just like, "How do I get on that private list of extra shade? Where do I sign up for that? Is there a Patreon for that? Can I get some extra shade Patreon please?" Chiron: I guess the shade that's generally going on in my head and heart just has to do with the collective stories that we tell about power and how frustrated I am with them. Experience in the spirit world, whether they be our collective very, very strong attachment to certain identities that may or may not serve us or may not be actually actionable, may have nothing to do with, that to me sometimes are very, very distracting. I can say, "Witch, witch, witch, witch, witch. I'm such a witch. I'm wearing all black. I'm such a witch, I'm such a witch. I have all the stones." And I'm like, "This is so distracting me from this very specific [inaudible 00:45:11] woman ancestor who has been trying to get me to do this very specific work that would enable you to, if went through what she's trying to get you to understand and see, bring some healing to your family, but no, you're so caught up in this glitz and idea. Or I'm coming originally and primarily from a folk magic background, an urban folk magic background, a New York City filled with botanicas, different traditions, but always the story about like, "Oh, that ungan, he is so powerful over there doing that really big intense work and the cemetery is so powerful." And I remember very early in my professional practice and having clients coming to me who were being thrown at by people who were very effective, but always this conversation about "Chiron, I really hope you can help. This person is so powerful." And needing to start breaking that down. What do you mean by that?  What's the conversation? Because there's a lot of, a lot of our stories about power are really caught up in the abstract. We actually don't know what the fuck we're talking about when we're saying that I am a, or that some else is so powerful. And then, [inaudible 00:46:39] I've often found to play out when someone specifically, we'll talk specifically just because it's a good template around the conversation of curses and crossed conditions. Oftentimes when someone is coming to me and they are really invested in entertaining the story that the person who is working against them is so powerful, what's often playing out is a few things. One, if someone actually is throwing at them, they aren't someone who is just abstractly powerful in the sense that they had just training very, very well and is truly in harmony with the tremendous force. Usually that person might be, frankly, very possessed and full of intrusive energies. Oftentimes it's someone who has no real hold on their own power.  [crosstalk 00:47:30] Andrew: Sure. Or they have a ton of rage or something. Some massive- Chiron: Yeah. And it's flying [crosstalk 00:47:36] Andrew: [crosstalk 00:47:36] emotional energy and every now and then, they just narrow it down on person X and then something happens. That's not power. [crosstalk 00:47:45] Chiron: Exactly. Andrew: Not in the sense that people mean it in this conversation. Yeah. Chiron: Exactly. And then I think about, okay, well what about your own vulnerabilities? And I don't mean that in a victim blaming way, but oftentimes when someone has gone to a significant extent of cleansings and reversals and protection work and they have not found it to be effective and I've often found that that person has certain, rather odd vulnerabilities. I have absolutely seen people who might have an ancestral curse that makes them especially vulnerable through curses from the feminine. And now you have this, perhaps a woman who is in a rage and she was in a rage against you 10 years ago and you just have to shake it off. Those kinds of things happen. So, to me, power is what is actually happening in this person's energetic sphere that's allowing them to have broad influence and understanding of and attempts to heal one's vulnerabilities to me is also powerful. And then we just do not give enough credence to the simple, humble, heart-centered medicine person in the remote setting, who by way of their initiatory experiences and the work that they do on themselves, has made themselves nearly invulnerable to harm, nearly invulnerable to some of the macro possessions that we have going on in the world. And that kind of person to me is the most powerful, frankly. Andrew: Yeah. And I think that the more people tell you how powerful they are, the more they're not, for one. The more somebody needs to express that, the less really stuff is going on there. I, I did martial arts for a long time and I worked as a bouncer for a while to see where I had gotten with my skill because I didn't want to go get in real fights, but I did want to be in real situations. And it became really obvious. It's in the way you carry yourself. And I think that in the same way that maybe those humble practitioners where people wouldn't identify them as showing the signs of power, I think that a lot of work that fixes things also don't show the signs of power. If you need a spiritual cleansing and we're like, "Oh, you know what? Burdock says it's going to help you here. So, you go down to the park with a little shovel or something, this is what it looks like, go and talk to it, make this offering. Dig up some of the roots and take a bath in that." Or whatever. It's like, "Oh, but don't I need candles and don't I need the-". I'm like, "No, you don't need anything. You just need this. This will fix everything." Because power on a magical level doesn't necessarily look like we expect it to. Or we have become accustomed to it being performance as. And it's not to say that there aren't those times for those big things. You and I both participate in traditions that have big things. I went to a Awan for Babalú-Ayé, big community cleansing and it's a whole production. But that's its own thing. That's not the small things. And often even then, people come for traditional divination with the Orishas and the answer is "Yeah. Bring this for Shango. Shango wants a pomegranate. He wants some bananas. He wants whatever. Oh, do this. Get a couple coconuts. Okay, you're good." It doesn't need to be dramatic in order to be effective. Chiron: As you were saying there's room for the dramatic. The dramatic kind of [inaudible 00:52:02] need to happen in some capacity [inaudible 00:52:06] is learning when and where and If I tried to make every cleansing that I do dramatic, I would never get anything done. And I [inaudible 00:52:14] one of the reasons why I fucking love diloggun and I fucking love the... Evil is very often very simple. But the effects are tremendous. And I revel in when my spirits tell me to refer a client to a diloggun reader because I'm like, "Oh. Yeah. You're going to get the medicine back. You're going to get the medicine." Andrew: For sure. And think that that's definitely a thing too. That referral. You said it already. I think it makes tons of sense too. I want to go back to this question about thing though, before we wrap up today, about being a nice person. Because I think that there are a bunch of false dichotomies or false positions around this conversation. On the one hand, you have the people who feel everybody should be nice, spiritual people should be nice and kind and calm and benevolent and whatever all the time. They shouldn't be ornery or anything else. And then on the other hand, you have this people who feel that they should be dark and powerful, gothic as it were. Whether literally or functionally. And then I think there's all these other positions. What do you think about that? You've been moving away from being nice, you've been moving towards being more direct. How would you describe that position? What advice would you give to people around trying to make sense of those kinds of positions? Chiron: Well, one thing that I've been studying a lot over the past few years is the energy of collusion, the ways in which we unconsciously make ourselves available for things that are not our truth or things that support us. The things that done support other people. There's so much evidence of what collusion looks like in spiritual community and politics, in the entertainment industry. And I am becoming more and more aware of place in my own life where I collude. I just shared on Facebook some months ago this moment where I was walking through the San Francisco BART station and a beautiful person who was asking for donations was singing and I really, I had already made some charitable efforts earlier in the week. I also was broke as fuck. And I just had a couple of things I wanted to get done that day, but this person's song was like a siren song. It was one of those beautiful voices and they had a sign up and I'm walking and I'm like, "I really want to support this person." I strongly believe in acting from a place of movement in one's heart and I'm feeling moved in my heart right now, but I really can't give right now. Do I share their sound cloud? What can I do to make this energy move? [inaudible 00:55:26] of me who looks at this person who's singing and looks at me and grins as we are exiting the BART station. And the grin was something that felt like, "Oh, poor unfortunate soul. We're not that person, right?" Like, "Look at us ascending out of the San Francisco BART station into the light with whatever resources we have. And in that person meeting my eyes, I suddenly felt a lot safer and more comfortable not making any effort. And in that moment, I was able the catch that unconscious collusion that would happen. Now, this isn't significant. There's no children in cages involved here. There's no sex abuse claims that I'm d- it was just so simple and small and tiny and perhaps even slightly laughable, but it was a very important moment for me to recognize a place in which I was vulnerable to other people taking me off of my center. Andrew: Well, and for, as a straight looking cis dude, the amount of dudes who try and pull me off of my beliefs about equality and feminism and gender identities and all these things, it's amazing how much effort there is to create that collusion where people will be like, "Oh, bla-bla-blah." I'm like, "Dude, that's a sexist joke. I don't actually find that funny." Or whatever. And the amount of persistence and pressure. And I think that when I listened to that story, one of the things that I hear and I think is really important is on the one hand, it's not cosmically and historically changing a particular moment, but when we have those experiences where we notice the collusion and we make a different choice, then that creates more space for us to free ourselves from that collusion and to continue that centeredness. And I think that this goes back to the, the simple Imbolc, the simple offering. It's not always lightning flash awakened everything moment. Sometimes it's those little things that start shaking us onto a different path, a more centered path, a more authentic path.  Chiron: [inaudible 00:58:07] things that have a hold on us individually and collectively that need to be fought against. Coming back to the conversation around niceness. Well, what about justice? No justice, no peace. And there are things that need to be fought against. There are things that we are all in agreement with. There are ways in which I myself am still colluding with past abusers in my own way. They might not be physically in my life, but the parts of me that are like, "Yeah, you kinda do suck, Chi. You kinda did deserve to be treated that way." This is an ongoing conversation around healing and reorienting ourselves towards the energies of healing and justice and that's not going to be nice. And that's not going to be complacent. Andrew: Well I read this interesting brief piece that got me thinking somebody from my kink community was writing this piece about being a nice guy versus being a good guy. I mean, linguistically we could shake it up in different directions, but the point that they were getting at and where it took my mind was essentially what they were talking about was when we're being a quote/unquote nice guy, we are doing positive behaviors in one way or another or nice behaviors in one way or another with the expectation of reward. With the expectation that it will get us something or take us somewhere. And they were talking about being a nice guy in order to eventually get the person you want to be with and stuff like this versus being a good person, which they put forward as being honest, being direct, being authentic. Being really deeply real and not necessarily not being kind or whatever, but also not doing it with, not being kind or nice with ulterior motives, which ultimately isn't niceness. And I think that in our culture, there's a lot of niceness. Going along to get along, being polite to avoid problems and sometimes that's absolutely important. Sometimes it's better than what else might happen, but I think that this question of being centered and authentic and genuine versus trying to make everything smooth, easy, nice and so on. Chiron: Yeah, totally. The promise of reward, but even the promise of safety. Andrew: Sure. Chiron: [crosstalk 01:00:51] Andrew: And that's definitely a reward. That's an inauthentic equation. I'm being nice because I want this thing and not that that might not be like, "Please, if you need to do stuff to be safe, be safe. Please, everybody." But there's an inauthenticity there- Chiron: Absolutely. Andrew: ... which it behooves us to, as we are able to work away from. Chiron: Absolutely. Abs- and I would say a significant part of my work is looking at times in childhood when we were making compromises to be safe around the adults around us who weren't actually adults. Andrew: Or to get that love or to get that affection or whatever. Any of it. For sure. Yeah. For sure. Well, I think that is a profound and wonderful place to wrap this up. Let's shake off those things. Let's challenge those collusions or as my friend might call them, internalized oppressions and let's move on from there. Let's see what we can do to change ourselves and change the world. Chiron: Absolutely. Andrew: Yeah. Remind everybody where they can find you okay? People should absolutely follow you on Instagram, but there are other places too. Chiron: Sure.  On Twitter and Instagram I'm Chiron Armand. And I have a Facebook page, Impact Shamanism. My website is impactshamanism.com. Thank you so much for having me. Andrew: Oh, it's been absolutely a pleasure. It's been as delightful as I imagined it might be.

Hi everyone! It’s Friday, so we’re back with another Fantastic Fest review from Andrew Campbell. Today’s review I thought wasn’t going to make it, and I was getting really frustrated with him, but then someone sent me this awesome houseplant and now it’s fine, and I’m fine, and everything’s fine. You know what else is fine? Andrew’s previous reviews, which include THE POOL (Episode #656), critical darling DOLEMITE IS MY NAME (Episode #649), and ensemble film extraordinaire KNIVES OUT (Episode #652). I wonder who sent this flower? Oh! I guess you’ll want to check out our review for ANNA AND THE APOCALYPSE (Episode #425) for... no reason. Before the review, we’ll have a promo from the DC High podcast. Every episode, D & C provide a heaping dose of edutainment as they work their way through a high-school themed curse. You can find them on Twitter and Facebook @DCHighpod. Don’t miss their Reign of Terror 2019 guest review for HATCHET (Episode #613). Subscribe to stay current with the latest releases. Contribute at Patreon for exclusive content. Connect with us over social media to continue the conversation. Here we go! ///// > ///// Hello film fans! Stephanie here. Andrew seems to have caught a touch of the plague this week and his voice sounds like he spent the whole day screaming. The review itself is all his, but you’ll be hearing my voice instead of his raw scratchy one. Anyway, today’s movie is about a nefarious plant and if I was going to watch a movie about plant life, it would be something more like LITTLE SHOP OF HORRORS or the real horror of 2018’s ANNIHILATION (Episode #400), both of which are streaming now on Amazon Prime. Today’s movie is LITTLE JOE, the 2019 film from Magnolia Pictures, written by Jessica Hausner and Geraldine Bajard, and directed by Hausner. LITTLE JOE played the 2019 Fantastic Fest as a “sneak preview” - whatever that means. The first English language film from Austrian director Hausner, LITTLE JOE stars Emily Beecham as Alice a single mother caring for her son Joe (Kit Connor) while preoccupied with her genetically engineered plant species called Little Joe. As a senior scientist at a research company, Alice has developed a flower that, when cared for and spoken to, emits a red cloud of particulates containing oxytocin, essentially providing a source of artificial happiness. Frequently forced to work late monitoring her plants, Alice is often absent from her teen son’s life with late night take-out dinners becoming the norm. She makes an uncharacteristically poor decision to smuggle a single bloom home as a gift for her son, but before long young Joe’s personality begins to change. The trailer for this film looks gorgeous, providing a setting for a great story. A stark, glass-walled laboratory staffed by a crew of meticulous workers tending to a grid of single-stem houseplants featuring a crimson puffball on the end. Alice’s bright-red bob of hair and the dark fluorescent grow-lights being the only other signs of color. The sterile, antiseptic lab clashes with the ominous soundtrack pulsating throughout. The film itself delivers in this regard, every scene well-shot with some creative camera angles and long pans. The story is a slow burn, just as the trailer indicates, however it grows a bit thin with remarkably few twists or payoffs along the way. The conclusion is predictable and pedestrian, however the film does have an interesting subtext regarding antidepressants. Fortunately for folks like me who don’t always pick up on these things, the characters eventually have an overt conversation on the subject. With pharmaceuticals (or in this case, a potentially malicious chemical-emitting houseplant) that serve to artificially alter one’s personality to create happiness, at what point does the person become someone else altogether? One thing that drew me to this film is the fact that Emily Beecham picked up the award for Best Actress at Cannes for LITTLE JOE. This seemed unlikely for a genre film such as this, however, Cannes has a recent history of recognizing actresses in horror and sci-fi films, including Charlotte Gainsbourg for ANTICHRIST and Kirsten Dunst for MELANCHOLIA, both stemming from the deranged mind of Lars von Trier. Unfortunately, I found Beecham’s performance to be rather pedestrian, along with most of the cast, which also includes actor Ben Whishaw as Chris, a co-worker at the lab and potential love interest for Alice. The film works to build suspense as Alice sees subtle signs that her son and co-workers are behaving differently, possibly resulting from Little Joe’s spores. But “subtle” is the key word here, the film sacrificing any real excitement for the restraint of being a light psychological thriller. The obvious comparison here is to INVASION OF THE BODY SNATCHERS, either the 1956 film or the more well-known 1978 remake starring Donald Sutherland. There the plants are extraterrestrial rather than bio-engineered, but as they slowly begin to supplant people both mentally and physically, you get some genuine terror that has aged surprisingly well. LITTLE JOE starts with the same note, but all the fun parts are missing. What makes LITTLE JOE fantastic? The Little Joe plant was scientifically engineered to be infertile, ostensibly to give the company control over the plant’s production once it becomes a commercially viable product.  However, as we know from a certain dinosaur, you cannot control nature’s intrinsic need to reproduce. In other words... This is basically the low-stakes flora version of JURASSIC PARK and it deserves a few points for that. LITTLE JOE is a slow-paced sci-fi thriller that rewards patient viewers with a meditative moral tale. Fans of lab-based thrillers such as GATTACA, CONTAGION, or Jeff Goldblum in THE FLY may enjoy this film. Rotten Tomatoes: 69% Metacritic: 58 One Movie Punch: 6.2/10 LITTLE JOE (2019) is not rated and opens today in limited release. Come back next Wednesday when Andrew will be returning with MARRIAGE STORY, starring Scarlett Johansson and Adam Driver. The latest from Noah Baumbach is a gut-wrenching story of love and divorce featuring two actors at the top of their game. You can expect Oscar nominations and possibly a few wins from this one. It’s been drawing rave reviews in a limited theatrical run and hits Netflix on Friday. Will you be ready to go by then, Andrew? Oh, you’re sounding better already!

Are we seeing a plateauing of Amazon? Those who think that any type of e-commerce conducted outside of Amazon is a dead-end are dead wrong. Today we welcome back Andrew Youderain to discuss his third annual State of the Merchant Report for 2019. If you've never read or heard us talk about the report, it's a comprehensive report of all things e-commerce that comes from Andy's exclusive database of real entrepreneurs, all running physical product e-commerce businesses. With more than 400 qualifying merchants completing the questionnaire, the report covers an array of important topics including growth and conversion rates, profitability stats, advertising ROI, and even one surprise question about ways our members would fulfill their biggest indulgences. We'll go over all the questions, responses, and the surprising trends in e-commerce for 2019. Episode Highlights: What is providing the best return on investment in terms of advertising? The facebook marketing factor, why it's so different, and how can be tricky. A shout out to email marketing as a very valuable and viable advertising tool. The reality of advertising fatigue and the big three – Google, Amazon, and Facebook. The typical store owner makeup and whether dropshipping is coming to an end. Surprising gains in manufacturing of original merchandise. The impact of the new tariffs on the surveyed businesses. Does everything seem to be growing? We discuss general growth rates in the e-commerce industry. The surprising thing we learned from the survey this year regarding Amazon. The place for premium and niche products. Andrew's top three takeaways from the survey. A rise in Chinese sellers on Amazon and what that means for e-commerce merchants and counterfeiting. Andrew's view on the FBA nexus and the state to state tax impact for his community of clients. The fun and surprising final question in the survey. Transcription: Joe: Mark back in Savannah I think it was 2016 was the 2nd time I ever went to eCommerceFuel. In a great location because I could drive there and it was a beautiful, beautiful location. And I was so proud because I brought copies of my e-book some would call it a book called 10 Steps to Selling your Amazon Business and this is back in '16. We're talking years ago. And so I thought I was at the forefront of things. And then Andrew does his presentation at the beginning of eCommerceFuel events which was really the state of commerce back then and what we've had him on the podcast about what this podcast today is about. The 1st thing he talks about is how few of the eCommerceFuel attendees are using Amazon; like less than 10%. And it was a very small part of their business and that Shopify and other channels were much, much bigger. And I was slightly mortified. But then the next year, the biggest growth I think in 2018 that we saw—actually it was at '17 because we stated e-commerce from Andrew in 2018 and the biggest growth factor was Amazon. And now that you've had him on again I think that that's changed a little bit, right? Mark: That's right. In this year's State of the Merchant Report from eCommerceFuel, they've found that this is the 1st year that non Amazon e-commerce stores outpaced Amazon as far as new sales channels which is pretty amazing when you think about the impact. The quote directly is this was the 1st year non Amazon sellers grew faster than those on the platform. So there's more growth happening off of Amazon among their members than on the Amazon platform. That's pretty remarkable to hear that because it feels like feels like everybody's on Amazon. And we've often preached this idea of having diverse revenue streams and making sure that you're being multichannel with your revenue streams and platforms but you and I know a lot of Amazon sellers that have gone all in on Amazon so that they could just focus on the growth there to get as much sales blossomed there as they can because it's easier to do than trying to manage multiple channels. Those who think that outside of Amazon e-commerce is dead; it's not at all, not even close. There is a couple of other interesting things that came out of this report and I'm going to let Andrew really get into some of the things that he found impressive. But one of the things that that stood out to me was the effectiveness of Facebook as a marketing channel. It seems like everyone we talked to always says Facebook is such a great marketing channel and if we could just figure it out and what my experience has been is that everybody's trying to figure it out. Which means it's really difficult to actually do. I think those that have “figured it out” are doing well. But among the people that responded to this really lengthy survey that Andrew puts them through Facebook ads came in as the 5th most effective sales channel or advertising channel that people were reporting. And the ROIS, the media in ROIS was a full point lower than the next highest. And again we'll let Andrew talk about some of these things because I'm sure he has more insights than I do into the report itself. From just a general like where are you in the market as an e-commerce business or when you're looking to buy and identifying the right trends and the types of businesses that are going to be around for the next several years a report like this is just invaluable, right? You get to see where a business is going, where the industry is going, and maybe where the next opportunities lie. Joe: Yeah and it comes directly from the eCommerceFuel membership database. As far as I understand it Andrew sends a survey out and collects all of this data and all of this information so it's from real entrepreneurs down in the trenches running their businesses; physical product e-commerce businesses. So if anybody is out there that is looking to grow their business outside of Amazon this report can help. If anybody's buying a business and wants to take it beyond Amazon this report can help. If you're on Shopify and you want to learn the other channels, what number 2, 3, and 4 are before that 5th one that's most effective being Facebook this report can help. And it comes from Andrew. There are very few people in the industry that are as good character as Andrew and the folks at eCommerceFuel. Mark: Oh I was just about to say that now. A shout out for the good guys Andrew is certainly one of those. So let's get into this discussion between Andrew and I on this report and find out what some of the insights he [inaudible 00:05:59.2]. Joe: Let's go to it. Mark: Andrew, thank you so much for coming back on to the podcast. You were on last year and we talked about the awesome report that you guys do over at eCommerceFuel; the State of the Merchant Report. And this is where you survey a lot of the members of your community which we've talked about here on the Quiet Light Podcast, Joe and I talked about it quite a bit. One of our favorite conferences, one of our favorite communities out there for high revenue e-commerce store owners; it's a fantastic community that you built there. And you do this report every year. It's a really good pulse of what's going on in the world of e-commerce. So thank you again for joining us. Andrew: Yeah thanks for having me. I appreciate it. And good work with the podcast. I'm enjoying the Quiet Light Podcast. I kind of love your episodes and yes you're putting up good stuff; you and Joe. But your episodes seem to have just a tiny edge on Joe's. I don't know maybe it's just in my mind but regardless you guys are doing awesome, awesome stuff. Mark: Yeah I'm just going to record that. I'm going to put it on a loop and I'm just going to send it to Joe a few times so he can hear that over and over again. You need to submit at some point we've been adding these movie quotes to our intros at random so you need to listen to those and tell us what you think it is and we'll give you a shout out. I don't know what they are myself so I'm excited about this. I'm excited to talk about this year's report because you always come out with just some really fascinating bits of data. And I'm going to start with one that I've run across a decent amount because I think it really speaks to a lot of buyers are thinking about when they're evaluating an online purchase and also sellers who are looking to scale their business and this is what is providing the best return on investment at this point in terms of advertising? Facebook is often quoted you know if we could just unlock Facebook and this is something that I want to get into a little bit here but your report showed some surprising numbers with where the most value is and where some of the lowest hanging fruit is for advertising. Andrew: Yeah so there are a couple of things that are new this year. I wanted to take a look at what merchants are using the most in terms of promoting their business; so what's most popular and then also what's the most effective because often those are not the same thing. And so you look at the most popular marketing channels and we just ask people what are you using and in the number of popularity 1st was email marketing, 2nd Facebook ads, 3rd was Google AdWords, 4th was SEO, and 5th was Instagram. And so then we—of course, it was a popularity—to get a sense of what was most effective we looked at okay, of the people that are using every single one of these things we asked about which, how many, what percentage of them ranked that specific one as the most effective? And the one that came to the surface wasn't even the top 5 that we talked about. The number one most effective marketing channel reported by merchants was Amazon Ads. Over half of people running Amazon Ads said it was the best highest ROI marketing channel to use, number two is e-mail marketing, three was SEO, 4th was Google AdWords, and like a distant 5th not even like a close 5th, but a distant 5th was Facebook Ads. And another thing that we explored was the average return on Ad Spend for Facebook Ads versus Amazon and Google and they had the lowest return on Ad Spend at 3.4 compared to Amazon at 4.6 and Google at over 5. And they're increasing of the costs on the Facebook platform were growing up the fastest as well; almost 20% versus 16 for Amazon and 10 for Google. So that was kind of the Facebook—I think a lot of people, so many people are doing it and it's easy to have like almost some fear of missing out if you're not doing it or if you're doing it like you're not getting the secret when everyone else is. But I think it's a harder nut to crack than people like to admit. And those were some of the numbers based on the advertising. Mark: Yeah there's a lot that I want to get into on this here and let's see if I can remember all of it but I want to 1st talk about the Facebook ads because you put it in that way; it's a tough nut to crack. And I wonder if that's really maybe some of the secrets that's going on behind these numbers with the EBIDTA ROIS and also the effective marketing channel. We've had Ezra Firestone on the podcast here before. He's a friend of Quiet Light Brokerage. He obviously is a big advocate of Facebook advertising. I've seen some other people who have been doing Facebook Ads with a lot of effectiveness but and this is the big caviar, it takes a while to figure that part out. And a lot of these guys have gotten there where they're seeing these ROIS of five plus, they've taken months—literally months and lots of dollars down the drain to really get to that point. I'm wondering and maybe you looked into this a little bit with the survey; did you look into people that have tried Facebook marketing and maybe gave up after two or three months because they couldn't get it to work or did you not look that deep or ask that deep of a question? Andrew: Yeah I didn't go quite that deep. And it's always tough designing the survey because it's already like 50 plus questions and I'm trying to balance—making sure we get people who get all the way through it with you know what are the critical things we get. So sadly I didn't get that kind of data. A lot of the kind of the fox and the stories behind people getting into Facebook and having a hard time with it are more anecdotal that I hear from people. And so sadly yeah I wish I had some good numbers and data behind it but it's more anecdotal than anything else. Mark: I mean look there's a couple of things on here on your top; 5 Amazon Ads, e-mail marketing, SEO, and Google AdWords. So let's go through here with Amazon Ads, SEO, Google AdWords; those are all high intent advertising channels, right? So if somebody goes online and says buy shoes or buy cheap shoes or best running shoes; that's a really high intent search, Facebook Ads not so much of a high intense search, e-mail marketing side if they're on your list that already a warm contact. So it shouldn't be too surprising that we're seeing that but the other side of this too that I would say is like if you're looking to create a market and let's say you have kind of an odd channel, maybe you take a spin on a new type of ice cream scooper that doesn't get stuck ever. So the ice cream never gets stuck in that ice cream scooper and you've invented this and you're going to sell it; well nobody knows that it exists. So it might take a while to build that market and so Facebook Ads might be a good source for that because you can have that proof of concept and really kind of educate the marketplace. But it's also going to take a little bit more work to get people to really peak their attention. Andrew: Yeah Facebook is just a totally different mindset for advertising. It's really great if you're good at targeting if you're good at—the way you build a funnel is just totally different. It's more so about you get to be able to catch people when they're doing something else, get their attention, pull them off the platform or engage them for a while and then pull them off versus being able to drive a sale short term. I think it's a longer term game and just a different mentality you need to have if you're going to do it well. And targeting too with Facebook I think is getting trickier [inaudible 00:12:57.7] that some of the targeting the traffic that Facebook had been sending hasn't been converting as well for some members and some people I know. So that's a big part of Facebook performing well as them sending you people that are based on their intelligence they know are going to work well. So yes it's interesting. Mark: Yeah talking to crack I think is the best way to describe it. So I do think it's a viable source but you've got to have the right type of product and you really have to know what you're doing with it and be patient. I mean that's just a lot with these; Amazon I'm not surprised at all, still a very young marketplace so I think we're still seeing kind of those numbers equalize out. Talk about a high intent marketplace and high intent searches so I think that makes complete sense they're number one on the list. And let's give a shout out to email marketing probably the old man in the room there, right? Andrew: Yeah although it's funny I think about if you look at email and even email it's still of course you know the number two most effective marketing channel and it's still highly—super valuable but I feel like even probably it's getting harder. I think advertising, in general, is getting so much more difficult because we've had so much of it—a part of it is fatigue; just advertising fatigue. And you've got three main giants who control so much of it and they're kind of squeezing all of the juice out of it they can with rising ad prices but even my email inbox I don't know about you Mark but I'm way more ruthless now with my email. I've got a ton of filters set up. I have used like unroll.me to unsubscribe from a lot of stuff because you have to. Because I'm looking to change my email address in the next couple of months to just have a team address to really focus on because it's—the levels most of the messages coming at us are increasingly just –they just keep going up and up and up. And so I don't know, it would be interesting to see if anything comes up in the next two, three, four years where—that it makes it able to get through all of that noise. Because it's getting—just any advertising, in general, is just getting a lot harder because there's just so much out there. Mark: You know I really think it comes down to the personalization. Email marketing, you're right I mean email it's a complete mess and now I use Gmail, we use Gmail, Google Apps throughout Quiet Light Brokerage and they tab everything down in that promotions or updates or forums tab. And I'll tell you what I don't look at promotions ever. Basically, its spam light is what it is and so you just throw all that stuff away. I go through it every few days and select all and hit the archive. Coming through that though like having personalized messages, very, very hyper focused hyper personalized messages I think that's really the only way that people are going to be able to survive with that email marketing. That's tough, that's not easy to do. Andrew: You know I agree and I think—you know I did a podcast with somebody earlier this year and they have an antiques business and every week they send out an email on Saturday and at the click through rates are like 25%. I talked to him about how he was doing this, I mean trying to get some secret out of it and there wasn't any secret. It was that he spent hours and hours and hours on an email that was totally unique and it was amazing deep interest level to the customers and people open it. And like I look at the email that we have that goes out to our private communities [inaudible 00:16:34.2] it's not nearly as good as his is but just that so much smaller group only about a thousand people but we're able to get it. It takes a lot of time to put together but it gets generally open rates of close to 50%. Mark: Let's move on here to another thing. I want to talk about the anatomy of a store owner. You put together a really nice simple graphic on the link to the report and I will link to this report here in the show notes and we'll also throw it into an email as well. So people listening to this take a look at the email coming through from Quiet Light Brokerage but I want to talk about the makeup of the store owner. Drop shipping seems to be kind of on the losing end of things these days. Andrew: Yeah I feel like it's had some pretty strong headwinds for the last couple of years. And this year the number—every year we ask and we look at what percentage of store owners is a certain type of business model; drop shipping, manufacturing, private label, hybrid, or reselling products. And this year the number of drop shippers that reported got cut in half. So only 8% of people this year down from 16% last year were drop shippers which is a pretty huge—just a massive cut. And if you look at the number of manufacturers that we're reporting that reports for the survey that was up by almost a 3rd by 32%. So it seems like a lot of those—this has been a couple of narratives that have been talked about for a couple of years now but it's really playing out in the numbers. Mark: Yeah I think so as well. What's funny though is we had somebody on recently to talk about drop shipping and they were killing it. They were doing a great job with drop shipping. So I feel like it's one of these areas where for a while there were Ad Sense sites, a pretty number of Ad Sense sites all over the place, a bunch of those got wiped out and the general thought was this is kind of a dead business model. Well, I've seen some of them come by and those people that actually survived through that and how they got some strong, strong businesses. I feel that way with drop shipping a little bit. Like if you can survive these head winds you've got something good. Andrew: It's funny you say that Mark because when I looked at the revenue growth by business model and the income growth by a business model guess who was leading the pack on both of those metrics? It was drop shippers. And I think what happened is exactly like you said there's a little bit of a Darwinism at play here where a lot of the herd got thinned out and the people that were left were able to make it work well. And I think you're actually right it definitely can work in some models. I think it's much harder to get the things to all align and get a model where it works well for reasons that—I guess I don't want to get into on the show right now but if you can get it right I mean it's a great business model because no inventory, no upfront cash, no cash flow issues, location independent. If you get it to work right it's a pretty good gig. Mark: It really is but it seems to be so dependent on the product and also your relationships as well because obviously, the problem with drop shipping is competition. It's so easy just to spin up something and compete directly with you and you get the sort of you bicker with a sort of marketplace of every product that is exactly the same, same images and everything else. It's tough to work in that area. On the flip side—so like I like to think about this on a spectrum. On one side we have drop shipping where you can see the products sometimes you get into reselling which might be a little bit of a step away from that drop shipping where you're still doing with some physical product but it's not yours. And then you go all the way over to the other side of the spectrum and you get these unique manufactured products, some of them private labeled but the most extreme would be hey I invented something or I've created a product and you're seeing some pretty big gains in that area. Andrew: Yeah I mean the number of manufacturers like I mentioned was up a 3rd this year. If you look at also not just the number of people that are doing it but the benefits that they're seeing and the pay off, so we tracked gross margin, net margin for those—for all these different types of sellers and manufacturers and by far the largest gross margin at 53%, the highest net margin at 21% and those were up year over year too for each category. I think the gross margin for manufacturers was up from 45% percent up to 53 and the net was up as well. So yeah I think manufacturers are—it's a harder business, there's less of a roadmap, it's more capital intensive, it's more stressful but if you're able to crack it more and more people are going that way. It's really the only way I feel like you can play on Amazon these days because if you're going to try to go resell someone else's product on Amazon you're going to get destroyed. And it's where a lot of people seem to be going and getting paid for. Mark: Yeah I think all those things that you talked about; the stress, no roadmap, everything else there's a flip side of that. It's defensible, right? Because there's no roadmap you're not going to have everybody saying oh I know exactly how to do this. It is difficult to do and figuring out how to get that manufacturing [inaudible 00:21:21.3] done is tough. Did you ask people and if you only have just kind of from what you've heard in the community obviously China I would guess would be the number one sourcing location for most people manufacturing, what other countries are you hearing from some of the members on the community that—where people are sourcing products? Especially when we're recording this—I don't know when we're going to air this episode but when we're recording this we're staring down potentially more tariffs going on with China. Obviously, this is going to impact everybody selling from China so finding other sources would be great. Have you heard of any other countries that seem to be emergent? Andrew: That's a great question and the honest answer is no. I mean there are people in Asia—I hear occasionally about people sourcing in Taiwan which depending on who you ask is China or isn't. Vietnam is another one that comes up but apart—and you know some people I know occasionally hear their source from India or make their things in Canada or someone I met with recently is building some footwear in Mexico. So there definitely are some other places people get certain things but in terms of a potential runner up to China that could even remotely start to be an alternative to where people are manufacturing 90% of things I don't think of someone who's pulling away or even you know accelerating at all. It's kind of just a whole bunch of a lot of different options all over. So not really an emerging source for manufacturing that I'm seeing. Mark: That's a little disappointing but not surprising. I mean wouldn't it be great to have something on this side of the ocean where we could maybe just pull up from Central America instead of having to—I talked to some of these store owners and they're talking about three months plus lead times where you're committing capital and then that goes on the ocean and it takes—I can't imagine how difficult that would be. Andrew: Oh yeah it would be really hard and you know it's one thing we did ask this year was did tariffs impact your business and granted I know we're talking you and I are both in the States, I know a lot of people listening aren't in the States but probably the vast majority of 85% or so of respondents for the survey are US based or 75% rather but we asked did tariffs impact your business this year? And over a 3rd of people, the 36% said the tariffs meaningfully hurt their business this year. And like you just alluded to they are only getting more from slapped on. So it's a big deal and it'd be nice to have a silver lining; maybe be that sourcing out of some of the countries closer to us maybe, maybe get a boost. Mark: Yeah that'd be interesting. Hey if anybody has an idea on where we can craft and not let me know. That'd be great to get that part out. Let's go to like some of the Sunday news here and that is everything seems to be growing. You know I started Quiet Light Brokerage right before we hit that great recession so a lot of my entrepreneurial journey has been slogging through a difficult economy. It seems like from what we're seeing we're in a bull market right now. Andrew: It seems really strong. So we—looking at growth rates over time, and again these are the average merchant—the average e-commerce store owner reporting for the survey was right around 3 million. So that's relatively small when you look at the macro economy, if you look at e-commerce trends, in general, they're probably could be growing closer to 20% plus or minus but for this segment of store owners if you look at the growth trend over 3 years, 2017 it was about 25%, last year it jumped way up to almost 37%, and this year it's down a touch to 36% but still meaningfully about the same. So revenue growth is good, income growth has also remained real strong and if you look at the conversion rates too and it's just continued to go up the last two years. I mean the conversion rate we're looking at this year was over 3% up from 2.60% last year. And in terms of like our earlier margins are up so all in all for store owners things are good, growth is good, margins are good, the conversion is great and it's kind of a boom time is the right word. But it's definitely—things are robust and healthy out there for stores in this segment. Mark: Yeah that's fantastic. One of the surprising things that I've seen from the report and we talked about this last year and I know Joe tells me and we mentioned this in the introduction to this episode here that the very 1st eCommerceFuel Live that he attended he brought a book on 10 Steps to Selling Amazon Business. You asked at one point to raise your hand if you're selling on Amazon and it was only a small portion of the room that did so. And he was thinking oh man I completely missed the mark bringing this book. Well, we've seen this number increase over the years although this year from—unless I've got [inaudible 00:26:19.5] I'm not reading this backwards, it looks like you have a decline in people that are selling on Amazon and an increase in people that are not selling on Amazon. Is that really what you're seeing? Andrew: Yeah I wouldn't say a decline but I would say a plateauing of something in the report that I wrote I call it like a plateauing Amazon—I hesitate to use the word peak Amazon because every time that I think that they've peaked anything they blow up and accelerate to the moon. But looking at like three examples here, or three data points; if you look at the number of merchants who just sell on Amazon or they don't. A couple of years ago 49% last year, it was 55% so a fairly meaningful jump. This year that number barely budged; it went from 55.2% to 55.8%. So up a little bit but wildly decelerating. Along the same lines if you look at group sales from Amazon last year, two years ago they were up really sharply and this year they barely budged; 27.6 to 28.2% of the total sales that all of the merchants generate coming from Amazon. And this is maybe the most surprising number. If you look at just the revenue growth of stores that sell on Amazon versus don't last year stores that sold on Amazon grew faster than stores that didn't. And this year stores that don't sell on Amazon actually grew faster than stores that do by a small margin which is just really, really surprising. So I think that there's so much here. We could do a whole episode on I don't think Amazon is going anywhere, I think they're going to be shaping the e-commerce landscape for the next 5 to 10 years. But I do think a lot of merchants are starting to really struggle with counterfeit issues, with increasing fees, with loss of control, with feeling like they're totally beholden to Amazon, and a lot of host of other issues. And they're not getting off the platform but the number of merchants that are saying hey yeah let's go hitch our wagon, go to Amazon and sell there—and some people are just deciding to leave the platform altogether. So one of my predictions and here I'm almost certain that it could be wrong because I'm going out on a limb is that next year is the 1st year we see the percentage of stores selling on Amazon actually decrease year over year. So we'll see when that happens. Mark: Yeah that's interesting. I wonder if shopper's behavior is changing at all and just again you just can't draw any conclusions from this here but I know for myself I've become more of a diversified shopper than I have in the past. I still use Amazon probably like 4 or 5 times a week, I'm still a really heavy Amazon shopper but I'll actually look around a little bit off of Amazon as well. And if I get the chance to order directly from a store I do so. Now that's probably just because I worked with so many entrepreneurs that have these stores and I know the benefits for them. But there's something nice about that specialization, right? If you think about the big box stores and how they couldn't specialize in any sort of gear but if you want something high end and specialized, it makes sense that there is somebody that actually does specialize in that. It's pure speculation on my part of course. Andrew: No. I think you're absolutely right. I think we're going to see in the next 5 years a real hollowing out of e-commerce where you have Amazon; if there's something you'd know you want to buy it's more of a commodity or a fairly inexpensive product that I think Amazon is going to be the place you go to get it quickly and cheaply and efficiently. But I think for anything else, for merchants I think the place to really thrive and survive over the next 5 years is to have a premium product or a very niched product; ideally, one that you manufacture. Like just for example yesterday I called up and I was in the market for a nice bike rack for my vehicle. And I went into a lot of research and the company I ended up buying it from I ended up talking to him on the phone for 35, 40 minutes. They custom manufacture in the United States, they ship that to me and it's that kind of thing. They have an incredible product and they don't sell on Amazon surprisingly because they don't need to. Because everyone that wants the site or this product they go right to them and they don't want to give up the marginalized control and guessing. And I think those are the kind of merchants that are going to do really well in the next 5 plus years. And I think that's kind of the best place to be going forward if you're not going to be on Amazon. Mark: Yeah. I would agree 100%. I think just from a long term sort of defensibility mindset and that's what I've seen and I actually see it on Amazon as well, the companies that are doing really, really well long term Amazon really care about their products. And they're spending a lot of time on that product development cycle and doing their research and trying to make sure that they have something that's a high quality product. But then they're also looking outside of that as well and becoming specialists in that space which makes a big difference. With everything that you surveyed here was there any one or two things that really stood out to you as being surprising this year or would inform you if you were an owner of an e-commerce business yourself that you would definitely want to take action on? Andrew: I think the big things were the massive shift and we kind of touched on this but the massive shift of people going away from drop shipping and into manufacturing. And the benefits financially that those manufacturers we're seeing. That would be a big one. The other one was the Facebook ones we talked about where Facebook Ads really are definitely at the back of the pack especially relative to their popularity in terms of effectiveness. So those would be probably two of the big things and then in terms of Amazon just I think it still makes—it can make sense if you have a great product that's proprietary. It doesn't—if you do it carefully I don't think you shouldn't go on Amazon but just the fact that so many people are kind of hitting the brakes on that or at least new entrance in saying aren't rushing in as head long as they were before I think is pretty telling. So nothing new there Mark that we haven't talked about but three things if I was in the middle of kind of defining strategy or starting it from scratch I think would be things I would think really carefully about. Mark: You said earlier in the episode here with advertising how much more difficult it's become. And I generally think that what we're seeing with the Internet and Internet based businesses and we've been seeing this pretty much since the time I started as an entrepreneur 20 years ago now is this maturation of the businesses where I think they're all getting more difficult to do. And you look at this and you think oh man that's such a bummer. I know I talked to some friends who are entrepreneurs back in the early 2000s and we kind of reminisce about the quarry days of Amazon was a thing of the website waiting for the movie dance to happen and now all of a sudden they're making gobs of money. But what do we learn from all that? We learned that dries up and disappears pretty quickly. The people that are surviving are the ones that are embracing some of these challenges and looking at them saying I'm going to build something really sustainable, a real product and they're doing great. They're doing really good. And that bears out in some of your numbers. Andrew: Yeah and one thing—it absolutely, absolutely does and I think one thing for you to touch on in terms of Amazon and in terms of sourcing in more of a macro level, if you look at one of the things we asked it was what are your most common struggles, what macro changes are you seeing, and what are your future plans? And one of the macro changes that came up the 1st time this year on the top top list was the number of Chinese sellers that were coming into Amazon. And I think I saw a stat today that 40% of the top Amazon sellers in 2019 are Chinese sellers versus 26% two years ago. And so A. on one level you have just a lot more competition directly from factories who are the low cost provider. Which isn't a bad thing for consumers in and of itself but it's harder for merchants. And if those sellers don't have the same kind of quality standards; some of them do, some of them don't, and you also run into problems. But you also have a lot of—one thing I've noticed is a lot of counterfeit issues. This has been in the news. We've had a number of members in our community who have had problems with this when they had a product it got knocked off and then these people—you know a lot of overseas sellers started selling this product directly in competition with the original manufacturer which was really problematic because the quality wasn't as good. And so consumers got it and it really hurt the brand because they assumed it came from the original source when it didn't. And so you see I think this also ties back into Amazon and why people are getting a little bit more careful about that platform is because there are some meaningful counterfeit issues out there that again going back to the difficulties of manufacturing that merchants are having to face that weren't really as much of an issue two, three years ago. Mark: That would be interesting to see what happens with that platform. And also I'm going to touch on one last bit of the report here that you spent some time on and that is the impact of politicians and judges and we've covered two areas; we were already talked about tariffs briefly and how many were impacted by that. I think the other big elephant in the room and it's been there for several years and we've talked about it a ton here at Quiet Light Brokerage and that is the FBA Nexus. Do you have Nexus, are you filing those sales taxes in different states, and you still have a very small percentage [inaudible 00:35:49.6] to the speaking of your community that was paying those sales taxes. I think 21% is what I'm seeing is that right? Andrew: Yup that's correct. So the percentage of sellers who have Amazon inventory that is filing for sales tax, [inaudible 00:36:04.0] sales tax in any state that they have “FBA Nexus” whether or not you agree that [inaudible 00:36:10.1] Nexus. Yeah only about a quarter of merchants are submitting sales tax to those states. Mark: And do you have any idea why such a small percentage? I mean obviously nobody wants to pay taxes and that it's a pain to most people. I've run into sellers who make the argument that it's really not—oh there's no legal basis for it. Andrew: I think it's a couple of things. I think one it's it is potentially disputable whether or not and again this is something I need to personally do a deep dive on but from the very—this is where things get dangerous when I talk but from the very little I know I don't know if it's—I don't believe it's that very crystal clear, there's a whole lot of present presidents that said yes this does definitively give you Nexus. And it could be a state by state issue as well. So I think that's part of it. I think the 2nd part of it is thinking about—so because it's a gray area you can have more people who start thinking on a risk basis. What are my risks I submit? What are my risks if I don't? Also relative to the workload because it's not just about the tax; I mean if it was mostly about the tax and the administering this and the managing of it was really easy and you didn't have any you know long term liability or exposure to being audited I think most merchants would say hey it's a little inconvenience but let's go ahead and let's set this up. You can snap your fingers I'll collect the sales tax; it's not a big deal. If it is a federal level it's much easier to do. I think you'd see that number jumped to 25 to 50% plus but that's not the case. Like you've got—it's hard to administer. You potentially open yourself up to dozens, hundreds, maybe even theoretically thousands of different municipalities who can audit you. You run the risk of getting on a sales tax agency's radar to come after you and maybe it wasn't before. So I think those are some of the reasons why people are not exactly thrilled at the thought of jumping in and waving their hand at taxation seasons saying hey here I am I'm not sure if I'm actually legally obligated to do this but come check me out. Mark: I completely get it. I get the risk versus reward analysis and frankly if I were a seller I would probably be among that 75% that's not collecting. Not that that's what I would advise here in my role because I know that if you do want to sell you got to be doing that right. And most buyers are looking at that and saying we want you to be paying those taxes. We don't want that to come back after us [inaudible 00:38:31.9] later on. But I mean from my opinion I think it's pretty legally shaky ground to say that people do have that Nexus. But the best practice from a selling standpoint would be to be filing so we do—I mean that's our default position here at Quiet Light is that you should be filing for sure without a doubt. But I would love to see this resolved within the next few years because it as if Amazon sellers don't have enough things hanging over their head. There's this potential like you said of being audited by the state of California or all of a sudden getting a bill for seven, eight, nine years of tax—what a mess. They need to get it together and figure this part out. Andrew: There's a little bit of encouraging news [inaudible 00:39:16.5] different sales tax issue we're talking about the FBA Nexus tax issue but the wayfarer versus South Dakota Supreme Court case that opened up the doors for states to tax inbound orders to their residents even if you don't have Nexus in the state as a whole opened up a whole other can of worms. And California I believe just passed some legislation that increases the threshold for—I think that the term for that is economic Nexus. They bumped that up meaningfully to half a million when before it was really low at like 100,000 and 200 transactions. So there's a little bit of encouraging news on some of that fronts and I believe there's been maybe half a dozen other states that either followed suit or are in process of doing that but its sales tax right now in the United States is just an absolute disaster. And I agree with you, I think we really need something at the federal level to clean it up because it's just a nightmare. I know people and I know you have to Mark that have sold their business not entirely based on but this definitely was a large part of the calculation thinking through I don't want to deal with this. I don't want to deal with the stress. I don't know with the liability and this is making business harder than it needs to be and I'm ready to be done. Mark: Yeah absolutely. Alright, we got to get to the most important metric that you've got and then wrap this up because we're actually long already with the episode. And you know what it is, it's your KPI the thing that you're focusing on the most. And in the past, you've learned stuff about your community rather be attacked by a swarm of angry bees and a bear and you say that they're crazy. I don't know the bear sounds pretty scary. But this year you asked what luxury gift would you pick; unlimited use of a private jet, $300,000 in annual income, a monthly lunch with anyone, or a tropical island and a house. So that 300k of annual income is that like forever? Andrew: That's forever. Yeah and I think overly weighted this one. I should have been all stench here with the annual annuity that you got because 2/3 of people picked the 300k income which yeah it's hard to argue against that. That's a pretty sweet little set up for life but like 10% picked the jet, about 13% picked the monthly lunch with anyone. That was my pick. I think like you can—I mean to be able to sit down once a month with the likes of U.S. presidents, heads of state, Nobel Prize winners. I mean you can't buy that. I think that'd be cool. Mark: Do you have to buy lunch? Andrew: You do. I should have included that. That was probably what the deal breaker was. Mark: Right. Because it's got to be a pretty nice lunch if you're going to have lunch with these guys. You're not just going down on like [inaudible 00:41:45.4]. Andrew: That's a good point. And then the last one was a tropical house, about 30% of people picked that. But yeah I mean to me this is I feel like it's going to a cornerstone—I suppose we can lead with this one actually Mark. I think next time maybe we mix things around and lead off of the Kardashian performance. Mark: You like to always put the best content at the end so that people will listen all the way to the end. Because where would your day be today if you hadn't learned that most people would take 300k annual income over a monthly lunch with anyone. I actually think you make a pretty valid point there. That would be pretty valuable. You can't buy a monthly lunch with anyone. That'd be tough. Andrew: Buffet—I think you could buy lunch with Buffett for—I don't know it's in the millions I think to have lunch with him. And he's just—I can imagine he's a pretty cool cat but yeah to build it up monthly with anyone; that's pretty cool. Mark: Yeah that is pretty cool. Alive and dead? Andrew: No, I don't think—I think it has to be alive. I didn't put that in there. If we had some inane abilities to be able to resurrect people, that would be pretty sweet. I'd put that in there too. I probably would have bumped it up a touch but I don't know, that 300k was pretty [inaudible 00:42:53.4] people. People like their cash. Mark: I think I could probably make 300k a year with some inane abilities. I'd be like one of those fortune tellers but I'm pretty sure I could spin that off into a pretty desk. Andrew: I know you could too. Mark: Hey thanks so much for coming on; tons of really good information. Go check out eCommerceFuel.com and the State of the Merchant Report. We will link to it in the show notes. We will be sending out an email to every one of our subscribers here on this. If you're not a member of the community are you taking applications right now Andrew? Andrew: We are. Yes, we are. Mark: Okay. If you're not a member of the eCommerceFuel community and you are an e-commerce seller you definitely need to check them out. I don't recommend a lot of groups. I don't recommend a lot of people or sites. We do so very stingily here at Quiet Light Brokerage but eCommerceFuel is one of our favorite groups out there. So please do check them out. Anything you'd like to end with Andrew? Andrew: No. I think that maybe two quick things; one if you want to check out the report directly its eCommerceFuel.com/2019-report that'll link you right to it. And then if you happen to be a podcast listener which I'm guessing you are, we also do a weekly podcast, sometimes twice a week on e-commerce, e-commerce news, store owners, kind of cutting edge just whatever is happening in the e-commerce world and strategy. That comes out weekly as well so if you're interested in that you can check that out [inaudible 00:44:15.2]. Mark: Yeah and you guys also sent out really good emails. I know we talked about email marketing and there's not a lot of people I feel add value to my inbox. I think you guys do a great job of adding value to my inbox. So definitely check out the community, check out the podcast and the report. And once again Andrew thanks for coming on. I look forward to having you on next year for the 2020 State of the Merchant Report. Andrew: Yeah. Thank you, Mark. I appreciate it. It's always fun to come on and great work with what you guys are doing in the online space with businesses. It's always fun to talk and I appreciate the invite. Links and Resources: Andrew's website State of the Merchant 2019 Andrew's Podcast

0:02:03 R.A.O.: Wyoming: 2nd-time caller: Agnostic Theist: Parenting Teens0:07:11 Dave: PA: Satanist: The Best Meatloaf is an Evil-Satanist Meatloaf0:16:24 Dave: Point Beach, FL: Atheist: Rehabilitation Used for Deceptive Proselytization0:22:30 Kahuzan: London: Theist: The Happiness of Credulity0:41:47 Adrian: TX: Deist: Is DNA an Evidence of Creator God?1:03:00 Andrew: OH: 2nd-time caller: Theist: The Argument from Design1:12:02 Bonnie: WI: The Adversary, Anti-God, Satan, and the Devil1:13:29 Craig: Sacramento, CA: Autocratic Secularism?1:21:32 Tracy: Canada: Theist: Was It a Sign?1:32:22 Caleb: ME: Atheist: Human Rights Are For All Humanity to Thrive

On today’s episode you will hear part 4 of 4 of Russell’s interview with Andrew Warner about the Clickfunnels start up story. Here are some of the awesome things you will hear in this part of the story: Hear Russell get put on the spot when he has to answer various questions from the audience. Find out why Russell loves Voxer so much and uses constantly. And find out how Russell plans to take Clickfunnels to the level of Sales Force in the future. So listen here to the final part of this 4 part set of the Clickfunnels Start up story as Russell is interviewed by Andrew Warner. ---Transcript--- Hey everyone, this is Russell Brunson. Welcome to the 4th and final installment here of the interview with Andrew Warner at the Dry Bar Comedy Club, where he’s going deep into the Clickfunnels startup story. I hope you’ve enjoyed it so far. You know, throughout this entire interview, it was really fun. He brought my wife onstage and some of my partners onstage, and brought other people who didn’t like me at first onstage and kind of shared all these things. I hope all you guys are enjoying it and really enjoying this interview. I hope that this starts making you think about your startup story. Some of you guys are living your startup story right now, and maybe you’re depressed or nervous, or scared, or afraid or whatever. And hopefully this gives you motivation to know that I was there too. In fact, I’m still there many times, but it’s okay and it’s part of the game and part of the process. And someday you’ll look back and you’ll have someone like Andrew interviewing you about your startup story and you’ll be so grateful for the trials and things you’re going through now. So with that said, we’re going to queue up the theme song, when we come back we’ll listen to part 4 of 4 of the Clickfunnels startup story interview with Andrew Warner at the Dry Bar Comedy Club. Andrew: And I know a lot of you have asked me what’s coming up next and Russell’s going to talk about that, how you’re going to get to Sales Force level, but why don’t I take a couple of questions from someone. Is there anyone who’s been sitting here going, “I can’t believe Andrew didn’t ask that.”? Is there anyone who has something standing out for them? Should we just have them onstage. Unknown person: We got mic’s. Andrew: We got mic’s from over there, okay. Audience member: Alright, a little bit deeper of a question. What is something, I know you’re strong in your faith, family, God, I mean kind of all around, what’s something that’s really made you who you are? You’ve mentioned before that made you as a marketer with your dad, you’re up late watching an infomercial. But what’s something that inherently that could have been experienced, maybe a quote in the back of your mind that’s just driven you, it could have been something that your parents taught you when you were young. What is, is there, it’s kind of a little bit difficult of a question to look back, there’s probably a million things. But what are one or two that really stick out, that make you the person that you are? Russell: I have a million thoughts just racing through my head. The one that just popped in the front, so I’ll share that one, hopefully it’s good. I remember when I was a kid my dad gave me a job to go clean the car. I went out there and I cleaned the car, I did my best job, I thought. And I came back in and I was like, “Hey dad, it’s clean. Can I go play?” I was like, “Come look at it.” So he could let me go out and play. And he was like, “Well, is it good? Are you proud of it?” and I’m like, “I don’t know.” And he’s like, “Well, are you proud of it.” I was like, “I don’t know.” And he’s like, “Go work on it until you’re proud of it, then come back and let me know.” And I was like, oh man. So I go back out, and I was like, “Am I proud of this?” and I was thinking about it, I guess technically I’m really not that proud of it. So I was like trying to do more things, trying to clean it better, and to the point where I was actually proud of it. And then I came back and I’m like, “Dad, okay the car’s clean now.” And he’s like, “Are you proud of it.” I’m like, “I am.” And he’s like, “Okay, you can go out and play then.” I think for me that was such a big thing because it was just like, that internal “Am I proud of this thing that I’m giving, that I’m putting out there?” and if not, keep doing it until you are. And I don’t know, that was one of those little weird dad moments that he probably didn’t mean as a teaching opportunity, but definitely has been big for me ever since then. Andrew: Good question. Is there one on this side? While you’re finding a person who has a question, Whitney, did you have more to say? You were going to ask more, right? Yeah, can you get the mic over to Whitney, please? She’s right over here. I know I didn’t ask your full question. Whitney: Hi Russell, how are you? Russell: Awesome, how are you doing? Whitney: Good. So with your business, what is, back to like when you were first starting, I kind of want to know, what’s the one thing when your business was really hard, when you were really struggling, what’s the one thing that kept you going? Just in the back of your mind. And then I have a second part of that. What would you say was your biggest failure and what was the greatest lesson you learned from it? Russell: That’s not an easy question. Andrew: The biggest failure. Russell: Oh man. So the first question was, what was the first one again? Thinking about the biggest failure, I’m trying to…Oh, what kept it going? Andrew: Give me a sec. Are you going through that now? You are, what are you going through right now? Can you stand up and get close to the mic? I can see that this is a meaningful question for a reason. What’s going on? Be open. Whitney: I’m just trying with my business, I’m trying to get my message out there. I’m really, I’m just baby parts of Clickfunnels, so I’m just figuring out how to do a funnel still. But my company is called Creating Powerful Women, so I am just trying to teach women how to grow a business while they grow their family at the same time. And I’m doing that right now, because I have 3 little tiny girls. So I’m just like, okay, I’m still trying to figure out this myself and then teach women how to do it at the same time. So it’s just, I’m still in that struggle phase. Andrew: Is it partially because you feel like an imposter, how can I tell them what to do? That’s what I was saying to you earlier. Whitney: When I don’t even know. Yeah. {Crosstalk} Whitney: I feel like I need to have that success level before I can teach women to go out and do it. But the reason when I found you in the hall, and I said, “I want Russell to be vulnerable and tell like the nitty gritty parts of the story.” And those stories are what make people relatable to you, that’s kind of where I’m at, as I realize that I grow a bigger following and a bigger audience when I’m more relatable to them, which I realize I don’t need to be up at that level to do that. Andrew: I get that. Russell: So my question for you is, have you been working with women? Helping them so far? Tell me a story of someone you’ve helped. I’m curious. Whitney: So I went through post partum depression a couple of years ago, after I had a baby and a lot of the women I’ve been reaching out to when I shared those stories, those women have been coming to me saying, “Hey, how do you get through this struggle? I know you’ve gotten past that, so I want to hear the hard stories that you went through.” So a lot of the people who I’ve been coaching one on one have been people who have gone through those exact same things  that I have. Russell: Okay when you do that, and you share the stuff with them, and that clicks for them, how does that feel? Whitney: Like I’m fulfilling what I was put on this planet to do. Russell: That’s the thing. That’s the thing that keeps me going. It doesn’t happen often, but it happens often enough that I crave that. I’m super introverted, so it’s always awkward for people to come to me, but I still love when they come to me and they’re like, “Hey, just so you know real quick…..” Like last night, we were in San Francisco, or San Diego, excuse me. Someone came up to me in the hall and I was kind of like, I’m nervous to talk to you but you’re going to talk to me. And he said, “Hey, just real quick, you legitimately changed my life, you changed my family.” And started tearing up. And I was just like, I let myself feel that just for a second and then I go back to the awkwardness, but for a second I feel that. And It’s just like ahh. That’s what it’s about you know. I use Voxer for my coaching clients. So every time they Vox me and say something like that, there’s a little star button and I star it and it stores them in this huge thing of all the starred ones. So now days I’ll go back and I’ll listen to that and I’ll listen to people like 2 years ago that said something about how something I did effected them, and it’s just like, that feeling. Because everything we do in this life is for feeling’s right. Everything is just a feeling we’re looking for. We eat because we want a feeling. We did this because we, I wanted a feeling. We’re doing everything for a feeling. So it’s like if I can remember the feelings of the thing I’m trying to get, and I can experience it again, then it, that’s what gets me and keeps me going.  And I think that any of us that are lucky enough to have those feelings, a lot of times we forget about them. No, remember that because that’s the thing, when it’s hard and it’s painful and it’s dark, it’s that feeling that’s just like, that’s the, you remember that and you let yourself experience it again for a minute. And then for me, that’s like, okay, I can get back up and I can go again. Andrew: Great question, I’m glad you asked it. How about one more over there? You know what, yeah, let’s give her a big round of applause, please. Audience member: I was actually going to ask a little bit about that vulnerability. I was surprised, I’m big in the SAAS space, I’ve been to Dream Force, follow a lot of Clickfunnels. It’s pretty rare to see a CEO want to put themselves kind of on the roasting side of things. You’re from here, from Sandy. I was just kind of surprised, what was it that really compelled you to kind of want to come back and do this in Utah? When I saw your email I thought it was a clickbait scam. Russell: Oh it is, we’re selling you something next. Audience member: I really thought I was going to come and it was going to be a video of your face spinning and it was going to be like, “Hi, we’re here.” Because I follow Clickfunnels, but it’s just really rare, especially being down in Utah county, that was kind of unique that way. Andrew: Wait, one sec. Does Clickfunnels allow me to actually place someone’s city in the headline, like I want someone from San Francisco, you could. Oh, alright, I get it. Audience Member: It said like Idaho, we’re in the surrounding areas, it’s going out to 8000 people, limited seating. So as a marketer I was just like, is this a real thing? You know. So I showed up and I was excited to see you. But why come back to Utah, what does this event mean to you and why want to be vulnerable and kind of open up? I learned a lot about you personally that was great to hear from a business side. Russell: So my beliefs are, and I believe we have the best software company in the world, so I’m going to start with that. But if it’s just about the software, then it comes down to who’s got what feature. People are moving and shifting and changing because of the features. That’s the thing. So Clickfunnels was like, no it has to be more and it has to be a thing. And it’s interesting, people who sign up for Clickfunnels, who click on an ad, they come and sign up. That’s why John can’t do, it doesn’t work that way. They sign up for a web, clickfunnels is a website builder for crying out loud. You boil it down, we are a website builder. That is boring. So people don’t come for that. They stay for that. That’s why they stay, that’s why they stay. But they come because of a feeling, and they come because of a connection. I want to be able to take the videos from here because if I can more people who come through my funnels to hear this story, they’re going to stick with Clickfunnels because they realize we have a soul. There’s a reason behind this, it’s not just the software company who’s trying to make a bunch of money. We’re actually, we have belief behind it. So that’s why we do all these things. That’s why I still write books. That’s why we do videos. That’s why we do vlogs. That’s why we do this fun stuff, because it builds connection with people, and connection really keeps people staying, even if some other company’s got a different feature than we do, or it’s cheaper and we’re more expensive, or whatever. So that’s the big reason why we still do it. And then I thought it would be fun to come down here because I grew up not far from here and it’s just kind of a fun thing. We’ve been working with the Harmon Brothers and we started another project with them and their family owns the Dry Bar Comedy Club, if you guys have ever watched Vid Angel, that’s one of their families companies. When Vid Angel had their little hiccups, they shifted all the programming to this, the Dry Bar Comedy Club, so we used to watch all the comedians here. And I was like, this is like the coolest location to do something like this. And one of the other side jokes, I don’t know if I shared this with you or if it was just in my head, but Andrew is famous for doing these big scotch nights, and as a Mormon I can’t drink scotch. And I was like, what if we did this, but at a Dry Bar, just this funny play off of that? And it all worked out. Andrew: You know, usually at events I do scotch night afterwards and say, ‘Everyone come back to my room.’ That’s not going to go over very well. But Dave’s been to mine. He drinks water and feels comfortable. We have good water for Dave. How about one more, then I want to get into the future. Audience Member: So you always talk about how, like for Clickfunnels you guys took like 6 tries to finally make it work, right. And how most of the time when you guys start something it doesn’t work the first time, that’s why you have audibles and all those things. So I was wondering as someone that, you know I’m starting and getting that, kind of like that lifts, what is the biggest thing that you see, versus like a flop funnel versus something that kind of takes off and explodes? What’s the audible or the change that you normally do that shift or the message change or whatever it is, that makes it finally take off? Russell: Traditionally the difference between a funnel that works and doesn’t work, I’d say it’s probably 50% offer. Like if the offer’s wrong it’s not gonna, that’s usually the first thing. But then if it’s actually a good offer, that people actually want, second then is usually copy. So like what’s the hook, those kind of things. And then design is probably 3rd. All that stuff that Theron and those guys didn’t like at first. The things that, because it’s not like we just made up this stuff, you saw 8000 funnels we tested and tried in the journey of 15 years of this, that now we know what things people convert on. So it’s just like looking at stuff that you know is working and modeling it because you this structure works, this kind of thing. But usually when something is broken it’s coming back and figuring out, this offer’s not right. People didn’t want it. And that was the problem with Clickfunnels. The offer, we took 4 or 5 times to get the offer right, and then as soon as the offer is right, you can tell when it’s right because people will buy, even if everything else is bad, if your offer is amazing people will give you money for it, you know. So that’s definitely the biggest part, and from there it’s copy, then design, then all the little things that stress some people out, like me. Andrew: So I’ve got, we’ll come back. I see there are a few people that have more questions; we’ll come back to them in a moment, including you. I promise I’ll do more. But you did tell me about all the different things you guys are working on now. Of all of them, what one is going to get you the closest to Sales Force level? Russell: That’s a good question, there’s so many things. So I would say, I’m going to ask you a question is that alright? Have you ever played bigger yet? Played bigger? Playing bigger?  Andrew: No, what do you mean by that? Russell: That’s the name of the book right? Play Bigger? Andrew: Oh Playing Bigger, the book. No. Russell: Yes. So that’s book’s been interesting, if you guys haven’t read it, it’s one of the biggest ones as a team that we’ve been reading. But it’s all about designing the category and becoming the king of that category. So I feel like we are the king of sales funnels, and that’s our category, the thing that’s going to be there. And then if you read through the book, the next phases are like, building out the ecosystem that supports you as the category. And the fascinating thing about sales force, if you look at it when, I probably shouldn’t say this on video because someday Mark Benioff’s going to watch this and be like, “I’ll never give you money.” But sales force isn’t great software, right. It’s this hub that things are tied into, but the reason why they did 13 billion this year, they’re trying to get to 20 billion is because they built this ecosystem. The ecosystem is what supports this thing and grows it up, and builds it. And that’s like the next phase. So I think for us, it’s like we have this, we have funnels which are the key. It’s like the CRM for them, it’s the central point. But it’s then bringing all the ecosystem, it’s building up all the things around it, right. Andrew: Letting other people create things on your platform, becoming a platform. Russell: Yes, becoming a true platform. Andrew: can you create a platform when what you want is the all in one solution when you’re saying, “you don’t have to plug in your chat bot to our software. We’re going to be chat bot software.” “You don’t have to plug in infusion soft, we’ve got email marketing in here or mail chimp.” Russell: It depends, because you look at Sales Force is similar too. They have their own things that they either acquire and bring them in, or they build their own, things like that. And I think it’s a hybrid of that. I think it’s, we allow people to integrate because some people have tools. We will, our goal is to always be the best sales funnel builder on planet earth. We may not be the best email auto responder in the world, we have one and that increases our revenue. And people who love us will use our email auto responder, but there may be some other one that’s better. But it’s not our big focal point. There may be a chat bot that’s got more features and more things, that’s not gonna be our focus to make it the best, but we’ve got one built in to make it. So theer will be, that’s kind of our thought, that we will have the things included, so if people want to go all in they can use it. But if they love yours because of these things, they can still bring that and still bring it in. You know, and then as we grow, who knows what the next phase is. Is it acquisitions, finding the best partners? People that most of our members are using, start acquiring companies and bringing them in, internally similar to what Sales Force does, growing the platform. Andrew: Just keep letting people build on your platform and then does that make the platform more valuable, or do you guys get a share of the money that people spend on these external tools? Russell: Both, I think. Stripe for example, Stripe, I think we process 1.7 billion dollars through Stripe. We make over a million bucks a year from Stripe referral fees, for just letting them connect with us. So there’s value on both sides because it makes the platform more valuable because people can use it easier, but we also make money that direction as well, and those type of things. Andrew: Okay, what is Actionlytics, Action… Russell: Actionetics. Andrew: Excuse me. Russell: So that was Todd’s name. He loved that name. So Actionetics is, it’s what we call internally, follow-up funnels. So we have sales funnels, which are page one, page two, page three, page four. Then a follow-up funnel is send this email, send this text message. “Here’s the retargeting pixels, here’s the thing.” So it’s the follow-up funnels. It’s all of the communication that’s happened after somebody leaves the page with your audience. Andrew: And that’s a new product that you guys are creating? Russell: Yeah, it’s been, actually we make more revenue from Actionetics than we do from Clickfunnels right now. We’ve never marketed it outside though. Andrew: I can’t get access to it, it asked me for my username and password. I said, I don’t have that, so how do I sign up for it? Russell: it’s only been in beta. So we opened up at Funnel Hacking Live, people signed up there. And then we kept it down for a year, then we opened it, so two Funnel Hacking Lives we opened it, and then my birthday we opened it. So that’s it. But we have, it’s over, 12-13 thousand members who have upgraded to that. And then we’re probably a couple weeks away from the actual public launch where people will be to get, everyone will be able to get access. Andrew: And already people are spending more money on that than Clickfunnels? Russell: Yeah, because it starts at $300 a month versus $100. So it’s the ascension up. So they go from $100 a month to $300 a month and then the new one, it scales with you. Because we’re sending emails and Facebook message, it gives us an ability to grow with the platform as well, and not just have a $200 a month limit. Someone might pay $1000 or $5000 depending on how big their lists are. Andrew: You’re really good at these upsells, you’re really good at these extra features. How do you think about what to add? How do the rest of us think about it, based on what’s worked for you? Russell: Okay, that’s a great question, and everyone thinks it’s a product, the question most people ask is, what price point should my upsells be? It has nothing to do with that. It has 100% to with the logical progression of events for your customer. So when someone comes to you and they buy something, let’s just say it’s weight loss. So they come to you and they buy a weight loss book right, and let’s say it’s about how to get abs. So they buy that, the second they put their credit card in and click the button, in their mind that problem has now been solved. I now have six pack abs, the second it’s done. And people don’t think that. So what people do wrong is the next page is like, “Cool, you bought my abs book. Do you want my abs video series?” it’s like, “No, I just solved that problem. I gave you money. It’s been solved.” So what we have to think through, for logical upsells is like, “okay, I just got abs, what’s the next logical thing I need?” So it’s like, “Cool you got abs now, but how would you like biceps? We can work it out. This is my training program to grow here.” For funnels it’s like, here’s this funnels software, or here’s this book teaching you how to build funnels, but after you have a funnel you need traffic. So traffic’s the next logical progression. So as soon as someone’s bought something, the customer’s mind, I believe, that problems been solved. And it’s like, what’s the new problem that’s been opened up, because that problem’s been solved. That’s the logical… Andrew: I got my email addresses because of Clickfunnels, the next problem I’m probably going to have is what do I send to people? And that’s what you’re solving. What about this, fill your funnel, it’s a new software. Russell: Yeah. Andrew: What is it? Russell: How do you know these things? That is good, you have been digging. So I’m writing my third book right now, it’s called Traffic Secrets, and then on the back of it we have software that’s called Fill Your Funnel, that matches how we do traffic with the book. So when someone reads the book, you login and the way we do traffic, we focus very heavily on influencers. We call it the Dream 100. So you come in and you login and you’re like, “Here’s the people in my market. There’s Tony Robbins, there’s Andrew..” you list all these people and it starts pulling all our data, scraping all their ads, their funnels, everything  and shows you everything that’s happening in their companies, so you can reverse engineer it for what you’re doing. Andrew: So if I admire what John is doing for you guys, I could put you in the software, you’ll show me what you guys are doing, and then I’ll be able to scrape it and do it myself. You’re nodding. And you’re okay with that? John: It’s awesome. I’m excited. Russell: Excited. Andrew: Have you been doing that? Is that part of what’s worked for you guys at Clickfunnels? John: Yeah, we like to, we call it funnel hacking. We like to look and see what other people are doing. Andrew: So you’re actively looking to see what other, man as an interviewer that would be so good for me to understand what people are doing to get traffic to their sites. Alright, so… Russell: We buy everyone’s product, everyone’s. I bought Drew’s like 6 times. Yeah, you’re welcome. Just because the process is fascinating to see. Andrew: And then the book. What’s the name of the book? Russell: Traffic Secrets. Andrew: Why is everything a secret? What is that? Russell: I don’t know. Andrew: No, I feel like you do. I remember I think it was… Russell: It all converts, 100% because it out converts. Andrew: Because the word, “secret” out converts? In everything? Russell: Everything. I used to onstage be like, “The top three myths, the top three strategies, the top three lies, the top three everything” and like “secrets” always out converted everything else, and then it just kind of stuck. Andrew: And then that’s the name of this book. I’m looking here to see…yeah, Melanie, she told me when you organized this event you said, “Secret project”. That’s it. Russell: If I just tell people what’s happening then they like, “Oh cool.” I need to have to build up the anticipation. Andrew: Even within your team? Russell: Especially within the team. Yes. Andrew: Especially. So secret is one big thing. What else do you do? Russell: Secrets, hacks… Andrew: No, within the team. So now you get them interested by saying it’s a secret. Russell: So I’ll tell them a story, I’ll tell them the beginning of a story. I’ll be like, “Oh my gosh you guys, I was listening, I was cleaning the wrestling room and I was going through this thing, and I was listening to Andrew and he was doing this campfire chat and it was amazing. And he’s telling this whole story, and I have this idea, it’s going to be amazing. But I’ll tell you guys about it tomorrow.” So what happens now, is they’ve got a whole night to like marinate on this and be like, “What in the world?” and get all excited. And then when they show up, they’re anticipating me telling them, and then when I tell them, then I get the response I want. If I tell them they’re like, “Oh cool.” I’m like, no, you missed it. I need that, in fact, I’ll share ideas all the time, I’ll pitch it out there just to see. I know it’s a good idea because Brent will be like, “I got chills.” Dave will start freaking out, and that’s when I know, “Okay, that was a good idea.” If they’re like, “Oh that’s cool.” I’m like, crap. Not doing that one. It’s the same thing. Andrew: I’ve heard one of the reasons that you guys hang out together is one, he’s an extrovert and you’re an introvert, but the other one is Dave will one up you. Russell: It starts the process. This is the bubble soccer event we did. Initially it was like we’re going to have influences, or we were launching the viral video and like we need, let’s bring some people into it. And then we were asking how someone could bring big influencers, like “you have to do something crazy. Like get a Ferrari and let them drive over it in a monster truck.” I was like, “That seems extreme.” I was like, “What if we played football on the Boise State Stadium?” And Dave’s like, “What if we did bubble soccer? What if we tried to set a Guinness book of world records…” and then next thing we know, we’re all Guinness book of world record champion bubble soccer players. It was amazing. Andrew: And that’s the thing that I’ve heard about your office environment. That it’s this kind of atmosphere where, see for me, look at me, I’ve got that New York tension. When I talk to my people and I talk to everyone it’s like, “You’ve gotta do something already.” And you guys like fun, there’s a ball pit or whatever in the office. Am I right? You go “we need a, we’re gonna create a new office. Let’s have a bowling alley in it and a place to shoot.” That’s the truth. Russell: It is the truth. It’s going to be amazing. Andrew: Does he also tell you, “We need to do something this weekend. Date night, it’s a secret.”? Russell: Maybe I need to do more than that, huh. Andrew: Yes, does he use persuasion techniques on you? Russell: It doesn’t work on her. Andrew: No. Russell: She’s the only person I can’t persuade. It’s amazing. My powers are useless against my wife. It’s unfortunate. Andrew: Do you actually use them, or when it comes to the house you go, “come on, I’m tired already, just…”? Russell: I tried to do something today and she was like, “That was the worst sales pitch ever.” I’m like, “Dang it. Alright, I’ll try again.” Andrew: Hey Siri, text my wife “I’ve got plans for tomorrow night. So good, Russell just told me about it. I’ll tell you later. Secret.” Period, send. Russell: That’s amazing. Andrew: Wowee. Does anybody know how I can get a babysitter here. {Audience speaking indistinctly} Andrew: They’re a little too eager to spend time with my kids. Thank you. Alright, I said I would take a few more questions. I know we’re almost out of time here. Who was it, it was someone on the right here that was especially, you looked, uh yeah you, who just pointed behind you. Audience Member: Hi, okay, Russell I’ve been in your world since about 2016.. Andrew: Hang on a second, who the, I’m sorry to curse, but who the f**k comes to a software event and goes, “I’ve been in your world.”? This is amazing about you. I’m in San Francisco, there’s nobody that goes, “I’m so glad I’ve been in the hubspot world.” It doesn’t work that way. I’m sorry, I had to interrupt. Okay. I’ve been in your world. He’s selling you software, you’re in his world. Sorry. Audience member: You have to listen to his podcast, it’s a.. Andrew: I’ve listened to his podcast. It’s just him talking. Audience Member: He talks about it, it’s a universe. He creates a universe. Andrew: You know what, here’s the thing that blew my mind. I thought it was him in a professional studio, I saw him in San Francisco, he’s talking into the voice recorder on his phone. Okay, yeah. I gotta feeling that Russell’s going to go, at some point, “Religion is just an info product. I think I could do a better job here.” Alright, yeah. Audience Member: okay, I entered the Clickfunnels universe in 2016 and since that time, I came in with a lot of hopes and a lot of, it was just a really exciting experience to have you break down the marketing, you really simplified it right. So I see that, I’m an ambassador for the one comma club challenge right now, and people are coming in with such high hopes and such tremendous faith and trust in you. And I have a friends that I brought into it and everything and they’re coming in, just like, they’re really staking a lot on how they’ve persuaded to join your universe. Sorry, universe is the wrong word. But from that, I guess the question is, there’s a few things. I think a lot of people are afraid of that type of responsibility in the products that they’re delivering, and of course there is a tremendous failure rate of people who don’t get what they’re persuaded in. So there’s a lot of magnification on the two comma club, and the people there that are the successes, but the question that I have is, the responsibility that you feel for that, I feel that you feel the responsibility because you’re constantly looking for new ways to simplify, bring in new coaches, bring in the new team, make products and offers that are completely irresistible. Truthfully, I went to Funnel Hacking Live, I’m not spending any money, 20 thousand dollars later. I mean it was truthfully so irresistible, but you’ve crafted such unique things in an effort to truly serve that client and really get them to the place that they’re looking to go. So I’m not sure if the question is coming out, but there’s a lot of responsibility that all these bright eyed, bushy tailed you know, wannabe marketers are coming in really truthfully feeling the genuine just truth that you’re telling them, but then there’s a big crash and burn rate too, which is normal in that space. I’m not sure what the question is. Andrew: Congratulations  to the people in the two comma club, what about the people in the no comma club. What do you feel is a sense of obligation to the people who aren’t yet there? What do you feel about that? Russell: Is that the question? Andrew: Is that right? Audience member: I guess the question is, there’s two parts, one is the responsibility that other people are feeling, the fear that they’re feeling to put something out there because they’re afraid of a failure rate. So just like, Whitney over there was talking about, she’s got those fears. So there’s normal fears that come along with that, so how you deal with that, in that it’s not because of lack of delivery on your end, but there’s still people who are spending tremendous amounts of money, or small amounts of money that just aren’t getting what it is. So it’s really about your internal feelings about that topic. Russell: It’s a good question. There’s a lot of different ways I could answer it. I’m trying to think, for me it’s a big reason I do have a con stripe, because I do feel like I have a huge obligation to people who sign up for our stuff. So I’m always thinking, how do we simplify this, how do we simplify it? What’s the best way to do it? What’s the thing? But that’s also what creates innovation right. It creates the ideas, it’s that, how do we serve these people better? How do we serve them better? Probably the best analogy, in fact, Brandon over here was working on a video that he sent me last night, that I had a chance to watch, it was really cool. We had Sean Stephenson speak at the second Funnel Hacking Live. Was anyone there for that one? A couple of you guys. Sean Stephenson, if you know him, is the 3 foot giant. He’s this little dude in a wheel chair, one of the coolest humans on earth. And he told this story, it was funny because man, I had another emotional connection watching it last night actually, watching it. And he talked about stories like, “How many of you guys here are upset because you got 17 followers on Facebook and you’ve got 13 likes on your YouTube video, and you’re pissed because of all this stuff.” And I think of a lot things that way. “I’m trying this thing, I’m not a millionaire yet, I’m not making any money, blah, blah, blah.” And they’re upset about that right. And what Sean said, he’s like, “Do you know how they choose who they’re going to save when a helicopter is flying into an ocean and there’s a boat that’s wrecked with all these people. Guess how they choose who they’re going to save?” and he said, “What happens is the helicopter drivers, they fly over there and go down to the people, going to save them, and guess who they save, they save the people who are swimming towards you.” He says, “That’s how you do it. If you try to save everyone, it will drown you, it’ll drown the boat, and everybody dies. But you save the people who are swimming toward you.” And then he came back and said, “Those 17 likes on your video, those are the 17 people who are swimming towards you. You have to understand that.” So for me it’s like, we talk about the money because that gets people inspired, but when it all comes down, the really internal belief, no one really cares about the money. They want the feeling of the connection and the help and they want to change the world. They have their thing, and so it’s like, we talk about the money because it gets people excited, but I don’t know anybody who that’s the real reason why they’re in business. They’re in because they want, they want to help those people that are coming towards them. So you notice when you get deeper into the culture, it’s not just money, money, money, money. It’s how do you serve, how do you impact, how do you change the world, how can you get your message clearer, how can you do those things? And when you shift from the money to that, then the money starts magically coming. So for me, it’s just like how do we get more people thinking that way more often. I don’t know if that’s the right answer or if that helps at all, but it is definitely something I feel a big obligation for but I also feel like I’m super grateful for the people who are willing, I’m grateful to Don Lepre, spent all that money doing the infomercial on that thing. And I didn’t implement it back then, when I was 14, right. I’m grateful to the next guy who re-inspired me and I bought the thing and didn’t do anything and then next person and all those things, because eventually it stuck. So for me, it’s like I’m going to keep creating offers and keep doing cool things, and trying to inspire people because it might not be the first or the second or the fifth, but eventually if I keep being consistent on my side, it’s going to keep getting it and eventually the right people, those who actually have something they want to share, something they actually care about what they’re doing will figure out the way. And we’re just going to keep trailblazing and trying to do our best to make a path that they can all follow. So that’s kind of how I look at it. Andrew: Great question. Let’s close it out with one more. Yes. Dave did you find someone, because I just found someone right here. Why don’t we do two more then? Since you found one and I found one. What’s your name? Sorry, Parker? Parker. Go next. There we go, let’s go to Parker next and we’ll close it out with him. Parker: Alright, so the biggest question I have for you Russell is, I’ve seen you guys’ amazing group you guys have at Clickfunnels, and every time I go in your guys’ office it’s nothing but excitement, energy, and not only you don’t have to inspire your workers to work for you. They come there excited and hearing your amazing stories that John and Brent had of, they stayed with you for all this time and you pushed them and they pushed you and there’s this amazing cycle. I’m curious as far as, because I want to have an amazing group like that one too so I can affect the world the same way that you have, and even do better than you did. And that’s a completely admiration thing, that’s I don’t know. Dave: Cut from the same cloth here. Russell: That’s his dad. Dave’s son. Andrew: Oh got it. That makes sense. Parker: The question I have for you is, how do you find those people? Is it nothing but like a whittling out process or do you see these characteristics already in the people that you have? Andrew: One sec, how old are you? Parker: I’m 20 years old. Andrew: 20 years old and you admire your dad and the guy that he works with so much that you want to not just be like him, but be more like him? Can you take of my kid tonight? Sorry, that’s amazing. Does your dad come home with this energy like this energy like, “We’re going to capture the world. This is what we’re going to do.” Parker: it is the funniest thing. Oh my gosh. Every way you see him online, social media, whatever the heck it is, it’s exactly the same way he is at home. When you see him on the tv talking about like, “Oh this is…” or when you interviewed him. Andrew: I’ve watched his podcast, I see that thing. {Crosstalk} Parker: you know as much as I do then. Andrew: What did he motivate you to, like to sell as a kid, or to upsell as a kid. Parker: So he would like talk to us like he was a sales person basically, in the aspect of he talks about things as far as, this person did a terrible job at selling. They could have done this, this, this and this.” And we’re like 10 years old, I think at the time, I think. I don’t know. It’s more of a recent change since he joined clickfunnels and he’s got this amazing excitement and energy. It’s an amazing thing and I wish to have to people like my dad when I become a, when I start to do my own thing. Andrew: It is contagious isn’t it? Parker: yeah, it totally is. Andrew: And I’ve been watching, what’s this new Vlog that you’ve got. It’s on Russell, it’s on Russell Brunson’s YouTube channel right? I’m at the end of it going, “Hell yeah, why am I taking a shower now. I gotta go, I got stuff to do.” Right. These guys are out there taking over San Francisco, that’s my city. So I guess you’re feeling the same way at home. Now, he’s there twice, he suddenly owns a place. So your question was…? Parker: My question was basically, how do you find these amazing people to work, not only for you, but with you and to help you accomplish your dream? Is it whittling out process or it you have innate ability to find people? Russell: So as you were saying that I started thinking, I’m thinking about the partners on our team, who none of them came through like a help wanted site. None of them came through like, Brent went to church with me and he showed up every single week, every single month, he was my home teacher and showed up every single month consistently and we became friends and we did stuff together. John married my cousin. We were on the boat in the middle of the lake and he pitched me on a network marketer opportunity and I was like, I love this guy. And then I pitched him back and we just, and it was amazing. And then Dave, we were at an event like this and we had a signup sheet if you wanted to take the speakers out to dinner and Dave ran back and signed up every single line under mine. So I went to every single meal with him for 3 days. I think it’s just, I think a big part of it, I think most entrepreneurs can’t build a team because they’re waiting to build the team. And I think for me, I didn’t know what I was doing so I just started running, and what happens when you’re moving forward and motion is happening, people get attracted to that. And some people will come for bad reasons and they’ll leave, and I’ve been taken advantage of multiple times, things like that will happen, but the right people will stick around. But it’s all about, it’s the motion right. That’s what people are attracted to. If something’s happening. I don’t know what’s happening, but I want to be on that train and they start coming. So I think it’s taking the initiative of “Okay, I’m going to start running and I have no idea if anyone’s going to follow me ever. But If I do this and I keep doing it consistently then people will.” And you know, it’s been a consistency thing. I’m 15 years into this business now, 8000 funnels deep. But it’s a consistency, and when you do that and you’re consistent, then the right people will just start coming into your life. But not waiting for them initially. If I would have waited to build my team initially, we wouldn’t have a team. Everyone we met was like in the, as we were having motion, the right people started showing up. Andrew: Alright. Thanks. Speaking of, thank you. How many people here are actually at Clickfunnels, if you work at Clickfunnels. Can you guys stand up if you work at Clickfunnels. There you go. I feel like at the end of this everyone’s going to want to go and meet Russell. Everyone’s going to want to go and mob him. And he’s not that social, number one. Number two, I feel like you’re going to pass up these fan-freaking-tastic conversations, I’ve gotten to know the people who work here a lot really well in preparation for this, I really urge you to see the guys, the people who are wearing these t-shirts. Get to know them. Push them into a corner, understand what’s working for them. And really, you’re fantastic people, thanks so much for helping me do this. And thank you for having me on here. I really appreciate you being open, being willing to let me take this anywhere. You said, “I understand what Andrew is trying to do. He’s trying to figure this out. I’m going to let him run with it and let him make the magic happen.” And I think we made a lot of magic happen. Thanks so much for having me here. Russell: Yeah man, it was amazing. Andrew: Thank you all for coming, I’m looking forward to meeting every one of you. Thanks.

Andrew and Peter explore the world of Thai magic and occultism. Talking about the importance of meta, self cultivation, personal growth and how they all relate to the intense practices of Thailands indigenous magic. Think about how much you've enjoyed the podcast and how many episodes you listened to, and consider if it is time to support the Patreon You can do so here. If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe by RSS , iTunes, Stitcher, or email. You can find Peter on FB here and at his website here Thanks for joining the conversation. Please share the podcast to help us grow and change the world.  Andrew You can book time with Andrew through his site here.  Transcript  ANDREW: [00:00:00] Welcome, everybody, to another installment of The Hermit's Lamp podcast. I am here today with Peter Jenx. And for those who don't know Peter Jenx, he is the author of a massive and intriguing tome, called Thai Occult. And it's really interesting to meet with somebody and talk with people who are involved in non-western [00:00:30] cultures and other ways of practicing magic that don't kind of come out of, you know, say, the Golden Dawn, or Wicca, or these other things, which are all lovely, but I think it's really interesting to get a dive into, you know, other kinds of worldviews and magic and all of those things. So really, that's why, you know, when Peter and I connected, I thought he'd be a great fit for being on the show. But for those who don't know you, Peter, who are you? PETER: And ... [00:01:00] Well, I'm an aging Englishman stuck in Chiang Mai at the moment. I've been here, been living in Thailand, since 2002, but first visited here in 1991. Which is kind of before its main economic explosion and everything else. And then, come from a musical background, working in music in Manchester, worked a lot with gigs, run rather interesting [00:01:30] night clubs in Manchester, and also been a practitioner of Tai Chi for like 20 years. So, I think everything's always pulled me East, which is why I really ... the first … on the first visit, I kind of knew I'd end up living here. It fits. ANDREW: Yeah, it's interesting how that works, right? You know, I was talking with somebody yesterday about, you know, I come from a Scottish background, [00:02:00] even though I was born and raised in Toronto, and they're like, “Oh, well, have you've been to Scotland?” And I'm like, “No, I haven't.” I mean, I'm curious, but I find I'm much more drawn to the East, you know? And I spent a bit of time in Thailand and a chunk of time in India, and you know, I was in China last year, and every time I return to the East, I always have this sense of ease that emerges that's quite different than what I experience, you know, living in Toronto. It's like, [00:02:30] that there are these places and cultures that are suited to our nature in ways that we might not even be able to explain or understand, you know? PETER: Well, I think it's working. I think at first when we come here, we are given space. And it's a space that we're not necessarily given in the West. Also, what I experienced when I first came here was a realization that what I'd always felt, regarding nature and regarding what [00:03:00] I perceive as magic in the West, was correct. It … Because here it is expressed in a much deeper way than it is in England, in particular. I don't know … And also, I think, you know, we need the strangeness to grow. Yeah, and sometimes part of any growth, as far as I'm concerned, is the process of change and [00:03:30] if you go to an alien culture, you are constantly challenged to change, and that can be astonishingly refreshing for us. And .... ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I can see that, for sure, and also that that idea that, you know, I mean, there are other ways of looking at the world and nature, you know, I mean this … the word animism has been, you know, being kicked around a lot and sort of gained a lot of ground as sort of a word [00:04:00] for some of the kind of world view that we might be talking about. And you know, I think that that's, that's both part of it. You know, for me, going … they're going to other places, and you and my involvement in and initiation in Afro-Cuban Lukumí, there is this sort of world view at play where plants are alive and have energies and consciousness, and you know, there's this interconnectedness between everything that [00:04:30] isn't really common, even amongst magical practitioners, at least in my experience, kind of growing up. PETER: Yeah. Yeah. It's one of those … [sigh] You know, the funny thing is … Okay. I had to act like myself to do this book. I have not been able to read other but … other magical books at all. Otherwise, it would have kind of diluted or influenced what I was going to do. The whole time I've spent here has been really a time to learn how not to [00:05:00] think and influence what is around you, and if you do that, you gain the natural focus that comes with the occult practices of this land, and that allows the nature to come through. But I always perceived this as just the Thai occult. Everybody else calls it Thai animism. [laughing] So I'm just getting used to the fact that it is probably animism, but everybody … all the people I deal with [00:05:30] all refer to it as an occult practice, but as an animist practice, it dates back thousands of years and it is uninterrupted now, that's quite rare in the world, as far as I know. I haven't studied anything else in depth, deliberately. And because of that, the depth of what I've been able to write about and the depth of understanding that is available is really off the planet as far as I'm concerned, you know. ANDREW: Yeah. Yeah, [00:06:00] I mean, there's such a difference between, you know, living practices that date way back, you know, you know with the Buddha, Afro-Cuban Lukumí stuff in Orisha tradition, it's one of those things where … When we start talking about divination in those systems, often people are quite astounded, and I know I was really astounded at the kinds of things that are included in the wisdom and specificity and all of these kinds of things. And, [00:06:30] you know, it's … In the end, the explanation is simple. You've had a lot of very deep, intelligent, mystical people pondering the human condition and connecting to the spirit world for thousands of years and passing on that information and allowing it to accumulate. And it provides such a deep insight into human, you know, human nature and human problems because you [00:07:00] know, although the nature of the problems changes with modernity and, and so on, the nature of being human really doesn't, I don't think. PETER: Well, that actually depends on the culture, though, because if you look at the Thai system, the things that it offers are the things that people, because of this region require, right? So, you know, this has been a very dangerous region over the thousands of years, and [00:07:30] they've been lucky enough to have the influence of Buddhism, which always overrides ancient animist practices, so, things can … They can remain who they are, while attaining higher spirituality, if that makes sense.  And really because of, you know, the rough nature of the living in the wild, and the constant wars in the region, most of the things that they have worked out to offer, and create, for their devotees are [00:08:00] related to protection in many forms, impenetrable skin, invincibility, ways to bounce back black magic, ways to change your fate, ways to attract people, ways to become popular, ways to gain good fortune, and it's all about, at the core of it all, it's actually all about the person as well, because they're being given an advantage that [00:08:30] they've got to work with. So, it's not just abracadabra, like wham! Okay. Now you're popular. Yeah, they might give you the attribute of being popular. But if you're a bit of a twat it's not going to work. Right.  So everything that they create is all about the development of the person themselves, being given an advantage that they have to grow into, which is typical of what we were talking about earlier, whereby the constant process [00:09:00] of change is also, can be -- we go backwards sometimes, can be the process towards either becoming a better person or more magical or however you want to see it. Yeah? And throughout the thousands of years that they developed it here, they've discovered what is actually supernatural in nature, and they have their own versions of it. Which, how the hell did they discover that? I don't know, but you know, special people discover [00:09:30] special things. They discover what human products they can use for rather powerful spells, they discover all the plants independently, often, of other approaches. So, the odd time, I've shared a picture of a tree .... [ringing phone] ANDREW: Oh! Now the phone's going to ring, just let it finish. It's not gonna … [00:10:11] I think I can make it stop. All right. You know what I'm going to do? I'm just going to unplug the phone. How about that? Problem solved. PETER: [laughing] Yeah, that's easy. So, you need, you need, you need that stick I showed you earlier. ANDREW: I know right? You know, I do. Yeah, before we started, let's just continue. PETER: So I'll go back in … I'll let you edit that out later. I'll just go back into where it was. ANDREW: Yeah, perfect.  PETER: So like one time, I posted a picture of a particular tree that has, that produces a particular wood [00:10:41] that the Thais use in many magical amulets, called amudam. I mean there are legends, it's the tree that you'd climb to get out of hell, because it's impossible to climb, because of huge spikes on the trunk. And it was possibly … There was a fantastic discussion ensued, because it was also a magical wood in pretty much every other system that I was in contact with at that time through the Facebook page. And the incredulity [00:11:11] of that between everybody was really rather wonderful. You know, it kind of just pulled everybody together. And … ANDREW: That's animism, right? That's the tree telling you what it wants to do, right? You know, and  telling everybody like the same thing. It's like, hey, I can help you with this thing. You know, if you work with me, you know, and that's what's really profound about these things, I think. PETER: Yes, very much so. It's … And [00:11:41] the more kind of I've learned about things, you know, I just, we were discussing about a person earlier, about lightning, and how lightning can make things magical. And, you know, I was chatting with a particularly learned ajahm from a very old lineage called Ajahm [?], Ajahm Tiger. With the help of my partner, of course, and he was telling me, really, if a lightning strikes [00:12:11] a tree, its use depends on the effect of the lightning on the tree. Like, if it blows off the bark in the middle, that area is used for the handles of magical knives; if it strikes another area of the tree, it's used for something else. So, depending even on how a supernatural occurrence like a lightning strike hits something, it can produce all [00:12:41] sorts of different results. And they … At the time we were having this chat, it was really rather mind-blowing that people have spent generations upon generations studying the effects of these supernatural occurrences.  ANDREW: Well, and I think that … It's so foreign to people living in cities, you know, but I mean, when you start spending time in nature and start consistently spending time in nature, [00:13:11] you know, it really, it really can start to speak to you after a while, right? You know, I spent … There's a site where we used to go and do ceremonies, every month, for almost two years, and kind of towards the end of that time, I did a 10-day retreat by myself where I just hung out in the woods and fasted and did my own rituals and stuff like that. And the amount of things [00:13:41] that I learned from that land and from the plants and the kinds of things that got revealed to me ... and even just like sort of unexpected beautiful things, you know.  There was this cherry tree and you know, I knew it was a cherry tree, we'd seen the flowers, it was beautiful, and so on, but the thing that was amazing, because I was there all day, every day, for that period of time, when I [00:14:11] was there, the sap was coming out and so there were these little reddish golden amber blobs on the tree from the sap emerging, and the tree was in the west from where we ... where I usually was, and when I looked up, toward sunset, all of those were glowing like a stained glass window, right? And so there are these moments of profound beauty and profound transference of information, [00:14:41] and where those plants can speak to you, and if you're around them all the time, then … and you're paying attention, then you get to notice them, right? But ... PETER: Well, it's the attention. That's the thing.  ANDREW: Yeah.  PETER: And this is why, I think, in the modern world, governments are terrified of nature, because it calls people away from what they want to do, the people to do, you know, and to be a good little drone and all the other sayings that we [00:15:11] can come out with rather pithily. But, you know, it's ... and even the medical community is now turning around and saying look, you know, to fight depression, just go and walk in the hills, go and sit in the forest. You know, but this kind of … You know, I'm lucky enough to be of an age where it was more of an actual world at the time, and this is, you know, it makes me kind [00:15:41] of put my head in my hands that people are having to be reminded to do that. You know, and the beauty that is available, the wealth that is available is astonishing. Since we moved to Chiang Mai, me and my partner have been round looking at various, some of the interesting spiritual caves in this region. And you know how, if we have time when people visit, I might take them to one or two, but there's one that I've already decided, I [00:16:11] think there's only one or two people I'll take to that particular one. It's too wild. And if … You know, if we spend the time like you have, to be able to still the mind, and treat ourselves to a little bit of solitude, we start to see these things, you know. And maybe they become more special. ANDREW: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Well, and I also think that we really need to understand and [00:16:41] respect, you know, like if we're really going to going to go into the real wilderness, you know, or real spots in nature, you know, it's something quite different, right? You know, in … Again, in my tradition, the real woods, you know, like not just like a couple plants around your yard or the park but the actual forest is a place that's somewhat feared by practitioners, not in a ... that sounds wrong. It's a place [00:17:11] that's deeply respected because it's known to be a place of power, and because it's a place of power, it's also a place of danger. You know, and so you make offerings to make sure that you're protected while you're there. You make offerings, maybe when you leave, to make sure that nothing you didn't want comes with you, you know, you make … If you're going to take anything, then you make offerings to the plants that you're going to take from, you know, and you know, it's so rare for a lot of us to have contact [00:17:41] with that deep wilderness, you know, it's something completely foreign and it's astounding, right? PETER: Well, it's … Usually at least once or twice a month, I end up going off with an ajarn, often to graveyards for graveyard ceremonies. And … Which I'm starting to document more fully. And, you know, watching, the ajarn go into, I always [00:18:11] call it ajarn world. ANDREW: Yeah, and by … What's a good translation for ajarn? Is … practitioner? teacher? Yeah. PETER: Teacher … The ajarn is a higher teacher. Yeah, but it's more than that. Yeah. It's an occultist, really. And, and watching them deal with what is there, and become open to what is there ... And, you know, I asked Ajarn Su and I've also asked Ajarn Apichai. You know, [00:18:42] often they go there to choose a ghost to do a particular task, and, to which Ajarn Apichai would, you know, often say, “Well, we've come to this graveyard, because it's a graveyard where there are many soldiers and police.” So, I normally … He said he normally tries to choose a good-natured ghost, so they don't come home with you, even though he has strong protection. And the deal is made, you know, to [00:19:12] reward the spirit when the job is done. And he knows, he can tell, within five percent, really, how effective that particular spirit's going to be. And sometimes he will go back and repeat, or just say “No, it's worked.” You know? ANDREW: Mm-hmm. PETER: And then you go with Ajarn Su, and the same questions will be, you know, Ajarn likes to choose what are called Phi Thai Hong ghosts. And, which [00:19:42] are the ghosts of people who've died violently, before their time. And again, he said--some of them are really quite lovely--and you know, we were standing just in the graveyard, doing a love ritual, pulling a separated couple back together. And he's called, and he slaps on the side of the cremation pit. It's just two walls that focus the heat in to be [00:20:12] able to burn the body fully, in the open, in a thin, a bit of a wood, and he's calling ghosts. And you know, it was the time of year when leaves are on the floor--the leaves shed up here, some trees--and you could hear the ... something walking towards us, you know, from a particular direction.  So, he called that ghost over and came to a deal, and he said, “Oh, it's been successful and I'll come back in a [00:20:42] few days and bring the offering that I promised, and I will donate merit.” And merit is something we gain. It's a Buddhist, Thai Buddhist principle where we gain merit through good deeds, helping people. A basic form of it would be giving to charity, and, you know, these Phi Thai Hong ghosts need to collect merit to get out of hell. Eventually try and rise towards rebirth. [00:21:12] And Ajarn Su is very careful about the ghosts he chooses, only, he never forces them, he requests, he is very gentle. Otherwise, they can hurt you. Yeah. And then when we get back, both of the ajarns will always bless water, splash on feet, hands, top of head, back of neck, just to make sure nothing has been clingy, you know. So, I mean they all follow similar [00:21:42] patterns, where, you know, and if anything's taken, you request it to be taken and if you're going to work with anything, you're asking permission, and it's extremely similar all around the world except for the cultural differences. And the influences, like in this region, with Buddhism has been a particular influence. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. So, I have so many questions, so many questions! [laughs] I guess one of my, one of  [00:22:12] my questions, though, coming out of what you just talked about … We talked about … You mentioned somewhere along the way, changing your fate, right? And I'm really curious about the idea of fate as it as it exists in this practice, you know, can you ... Can you just answer that small question for us? Tell us what that's like. [chuckles] PETER: Okay. Well, the idea of fate is … Without, I don't study horusat, which is Thai astrology. [00:22:42] Okay, but what I would say is, that I think the Thai occult corresponds to people's state of mind. Yeah? And help to get people out of the state of mind to improve themselves again, as well as realigning their faith, there's a dual motion going on here. We are given a Qatar. We have to make offerings. We [00:23:12] have to take care of something. We have to structure our lives around it. We have to take the five precepts, which are the basic things. Don't kill anybody. Stop shagging around. Don't lie, you know, etcetera etcetera. And often, besides the help of something like Rahu, which, the Thai Rahu is not the same as the Indian one, but, we praise it in a different way, which really annoys the Indians. And we [00:23:42] gain his help now, if … to do that we have to order our lives around it. So, I think it's a dual road of choosing a better path, choosing the help of somebody who is smart enough and spiritual enough to help you, and then structuring your life in a different way, and the Rahu is considered to raise your general level of good fortune. ANDREW: And Rahu is [00:24:12] what exactly? PETER: Rahu is the god that eats the sun or the moon from Indian mythology. Yeah? He's the god of eclipses. In India, they do not praise him, they're trying to get rid of him. Hmm. Yeah. They think it's horrific that the Thai people praise Rahu but usually they often consider that a period of very bad fortune is sometimes, Rahu coming into somebody's lives and influencing it without being [00:24:42] asked to come in. So, by praising him, you're going to offer your foods, the correct foods, which always have to be black. They need the numbers of seven, nine, or 15, depending on the ajahm. Different black foods, usually on the four quarters of the moon, with the full moon being the most important. Normally, it's advised to wear the Rahu on the full moon when in which [00:25:12] case it kind of feels like he's bouncing around on your chest like going to a disco. He can't … he's extremely rewarding; many ajarns swear by Rahu, but he takes a lot of work. So, I think it's a dual, being very honest about this, I think it's a dual combination, whereby we get our shit together, and then the help offered by the Rahu offered by the ajarn, will start to improve the life. ANDREW: And when we're [00:25:42] talking about fate here, are we talking about … We can be a little simplistic too, maybe for the conversation. Are we talking about it as a sense of karma, like consequences for our actions, this life, other lives, or whatever? Are we talking about like a destiny or a thing that we're ... sort of came intact from somewhere or that we need to try and achieve maybe in our life. PETER: Well, we always [00:26:12] have influence. Actually, there's three forms of influence on the brain. Okay, there's three forms of influence we consider to be three forms of influence from life. One is an astrological influence. Astrology influences the person without any doubt at all. Yeah? The second one in Thai is the influence of ghosts. Yeah? And spirits directing your life without you knowing about it. And the third one is the influence of the mind and all the silly things that the mind does can [00:26:42] be destructive. Yeah? If you … Everybody goes through periods of bad fortune, but they can have very very different reasons. Sometimes even in the Thai practices, you know, we can have a real crash of fortunes, but I was just seeing it as, it's just a part of life, man. It can't be good all the time. Yeah? It's a readjustment of yourself and of your … the way you deal with yourself. I don't like to involve things [00:27:12] like karma. I'm very practical in that respect. It's about living an open and happy life and sometimes shit goes wrong. Yeah? Through bereavement and through everything else ... ANDREW: So, go ahead. PETER: And through bereavement and through everything else, but that period then we have to kind of realign ourselves. I think focusing in on what has actually caused the problem is one of the things that we need to get away from [00:27:42] and just deal with the fact that we're in the shit. Yeah? Yeah, so that also immediately stops all the stuff that goes around in the brain or at least helps with it. Yeah? So. ANDREW: Yeah. Yeah, in Lukumí divination we have kind of negativity, which we call Otonawa, which means … roughly means, that which you brought with you from heaven, and it's like, it's like, yeah, this is a thing that's, [00:28:12], you can't do anything about, maybe it's part of your destiny, maybe it's just come from, come to a place where the various forces in your life make this inevitable. But now you need to just, you know, appease it, ease it, support yourself, and get through it, and then, you know, but there's no making it go away, right? You know, like there's no perfect road, right? Where we never see these things.  PETER: Well there can't be, otherwise we get so spoiled that the smallest pebble on the road would become an absolute nightmare [00:28:42] if it got into our shoes. Right? You know, we need it. We need these things to happen in life, in my opinion. Otherwise, we don't have any understanding of what life is or can be about. ANDREW: And I also … I also think it's really interesting that ... the idea of easing the mind by stopping, asking why, and looking to explain it. You know, I think that that's a place where a lot of people ... you [00:29:12] know, I mean, I read cards for people, and you know, there are certainly folks who come in for card readings who are just like: “but why, why did this happen, why did this happen?” It's like, at a certain point, why does it matter? How about you do this to make it better, you know, and yeah, it's that practicality that I think is sometimes very unsatisfying to people in certain situations, you know? PETER: Well, it's a Western thing, you know? Our minds are way too busy. You know? I live, you know, one of the core elements of [00:29:42] Thai culture is samadhi, which is [? 29:45]  that is gained through Buddhism. It is an open and clear focus whereby we're trying to separate ourselves from the mind, so you end up in a position where you can watch your mind being a bastard. Yeah? Or being a bit barmy one day. Yeah? So, eventually when you actually … You know, but I always ask people what is watching the mind? Yeah? [00:30:13]  So in my opinion, what you are doing and what you are going to learn to do, is to find out who you are, which is not often what your mind is? You know, even in our … Even in our culture, we have sayings like, what does your stomach tell you? It's not the same as what does your mind tell you? They will say, what do you think? Yeah. So, one of the aims is to eventually secure yourselves and then when you get to that point, you can start to [00:30:43] see or feel astrological influences. You can have an idea about whether you're being influenced by something else. And you can watch your mind and attempt to behave and try and calm it down, so, it doesn't cause which as much trouble. Yeah? And all these are core practices within Buddhism and Eastern philosophies. ANDREW: Yeah. For sure. Yeah, that ability to step back [00:31:13] from what's going on in your head and basically be like, oh, take a look at that. My brain is … my brain is doing this thing in the same way that my stomach might be doing another thing in my … You know, my knee might be acting up or whatever. It's like, I'm not even those things, right, but sort of tuning down the emotions and the mind to kind of a place of somewhat lesser value or more specific value than the sort of overriding quality that we often associate with them. You [00:31:43] know, that's not easy, right? That's ... for a lot of people, especially Western people. PETER: You know, if you ever visit, an example of one of the wonderful things to do is to go and see someone like Ajarn Su, who was a monk for 18 years. So, this guy's got focus. Yeah? And recently, we went along with somebody who wanted a head tattoo. A head young [not sure if this is right? at 32:08] for metta. Yeah, for loving-kindness. Higher, the highest of the high Buddhist-style tattoos. You know, head tattoos [00:32:13] hurt. ANDREW: Yeah, I can imagine. PETER: This is done with a gun. Ajarn Su can only use a gun because he's got an arm that won't do as it's told, and, you know, the lad doing it had great difficulty controlling the screaming. And I was … I was helping out, being a bit of an assistant. And I was watching Ajarn, and he just went into his quiet place and not thought, but [00:32:43] no thinking, he was just chanting Qatar while he was doing the inside, while doing, while performing this tattoo, which took way longer than the recipient really wanted it to, and he pretty much screamed all the way through, so when we let … And then the worst thing was that if you have a tattoo with Ajarn Su, he will then give you his Yant Kru, which is, it gives … Everybody he gives tattoos to and it's a line [00:33:13] of script going along the front line at the bottom of the palm, and man, it's painful. Yeah? And as soon as, as soon as he said to me in Thai, “Oh, just hold his hand,” I thought, “Oh my God, he's really going to scream now.” And, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He did. He really let go. Yeah, and then when, and then when we left Ajarn, after about 10 minutes, the guy just lit up, and he got the sun inside his face. And [00:33:43] he actually said, “Wow, now I know why I've had it done. I wasn't so sure for the last half an hour,” and it looked amazing, and we were actually leaving. But then once we left, Ajarn's neighbors from across the road came over to see him to make sure everything was okay. [laughing] ANDREW: Right? PETER: And Ajarn is such a sweet man. He kept stopping and going, “so [00:34:13] soo,” which means, you know, “you have to fight a little bit,” but doing it in such a cute way, it was like an anime, you know. And watching him not be drawn into somebody else's pain, not be influenced by somebody who is having difficulty, and retaining his own presence was a lesson in itself. It was quite astonishing, it was an amazing 30 minutes.  ANDREW: It's [00:34:44] such a … I mean, I hear in that story what I would call a profound sense of compassion that doesn't match what we normally, you know, people might go to as a sense of compassion, which is, a sense of that deeper purpose of what's at hand, a loving acknowledgment of the struggle, and a commitment to the outcome that was what was meant to ... like what was agreed to, as opposed to an avoidance of a kind [00:35:14] of suffering for that person, right? PETER: Yep, that's exactly right. And also, when he finished the tattoo, Ajarn told him, instead of keeping the five precepts, he only has to keep one. He said, “But you keep this precept,” and when he told him the one, I'm not going to say which one it is, I'm not going to divulge anything about what he said, but he said, “How does he choose the most difficult [00:35:44] one he could possibly choose for me?” I said, “Oh, he always does that!”  ANDREW: Of course.  PETER: I said, “Otherwise what's the point?” And the guy just fell around laughing? You know, he said, “How does he know?” I said, “He's an ajarn, my friend.” ANDREW: Yeah. PETER: “He probably knew as soon as you walked in.” And it was again one of those comical moments when we realize how much we have to grow in the situation we are in. But the [00:36:14] levels of metta, loving-kindness and the beauty of what they are trying to do is, it's just breathtaking. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. So, I mean I guess, let me ask this question, and I imagine there might be a few different answers to it. But, how does, how does a person become an ajarn? PETER: In the usual route.  ANDREW: [chuckling] PETER: Okay, those … From what I can see at the moment, and this is going to change over time, as [00:36:44] the more time I spend with them, but basically everybody starts off as being some sort of devotee, using their amulets, learning the Qatar, becoming kind of known as somebody who makes an effort towards those spiritual practices. They might go off and do a few weeks, or a month, or even three months as a monk. Yeah? Which is all [00:37:14] set up within the community, and most times men will be a monk at some point in their life, for a short period of time, and then they may start helping the ahjan with rituals and helping the people who visit the samyat, which is the place of work. It's like his spiritual shop, his temple, yeah? And then, the [00:37:44] studying begins. Now the studying, we discovered, has actually got levels. And each level, it's a bit like going and getting different degrees. Each level has got what is called the khan kru associated with it and the khan kru is a construction of various objects. Like sometimes swords, sometimes flags, and [00:38:14] they're always quite different, a lot of betel nut, flowers. It depends on the lineage of the ajarn that's giving it and there are various levels of the khan kru, depending on what you study. So, the earlier levels tend to be directed towards satyam, the Thai traditional tattooing, after which you tend to learn about sunay sunay magic, which is the magic for attraction. [00:38:44] Eventually … I'm trying to remember the levels. It's something like the 8, 12, 27 but it ends up at 108. There's men. There's about eight different levels of the khan kru, and at each level you attain a certain understanding, but the khan kru is actually considered to be alive. It's considered to have life, and it helps you teach [00:39:14] you, and it can also knock you back if you're not studying enough, or being erudite enough, or not trying enough or you're just getting it wrong. Yeah? So, I … it's weighed like everything in this system. The book kind of introduces the subject of the khan kru, but the khan kru in itself could probably be a book on its own.  Ajarn Su holdes the khan kru 108, which [00:39:44] is the full witcha, which comes from a similar root word as Wiccan, by the way, the witcha is the knowledge, and a very famous monk called Kru Badung Dev, still alive, but he's bedridden and 105 and his witcha collection, his book collection is really quite something, it's off the planet and his knowledge to go along with it. When he was a monk, he had the khan kru 227, [00:40:15] which only monks can have, and then you go back to the 108, when you stop being a monk. So, often you're going to see … In Ajarn Su's samyat, there's one khan kru and it's a 108, everything, and there are a certain color to show that his teacher is still alive and they change the color when he dies.  In other samyat, you go and they'll have like five or six khan kru [00:40:45] for different subjects from different ajarns. Yeah, so you have some that stick to a certain lineage and some that go around collecting different witchas, almost like create their own lineage to start their own path, which then they can help other people along as well. It involves learning at least three scripts. It involves learning an enormous amount of Qatar, understanding the Qatar, [00:41:15] and it involves practices such as various meditational practices, like the 32 parts of the body practice for which you need a teacher but there's a brief outline in the book of it. We're about … we get to know our physical body by traveling around it. And it's split into 32 parts. There is also various meditational practices [00:41:45] towards cutting four elements within the body, but all these kind of roll along through the different levels of study. ANDREW: And so, is the title conferred by the teacher then at some point? Is that the …? PETER: The teacher decides when you move to the next level. To become an ajahm, you know, you can say, I could now turn around and say, “I'm ajarn, I'm [00:42:15] an ajarn,” but I'd be a bit of an idiot to do so, because it's really obvious that I'm not, right? Yeah. Yeah, in the same way as mastership in martial arts. You know, you always get … there's always a number of [pillocks? 42:26] who call themselves a master and they have to go through the very painful process of being beaten up by an eight-year-old at some point. You know what I mean? Yeah. Similar, you prove yourself by being good at your ajarn. ANDREW: That's interesting. I also … I'm also really fascinated by … I mean, we were talking about nature [00:42:45] earlier. Do the ajarns, like, are there any living, like do they practice in Bangkok in the center of town? Do they out in the woods? PETER: Yes, woods. Yeah. Yes. They did. There is … There are some remarkable magicians in Bangkok. Normally, they will deal with the things that people who live in the metropolis need, will help them with the promotion at work, will help them find a lover. Yeah, and [00:43:15] be more attractive, and there is those … One ajarn called Ajarn Weaver Ted [? at 21:32] who's now very famous. He's the first photograph in the book. And he's got very rich clientele, that he does spiritual work for, whatever that may entail. Yeah, some of it will be aggressive. Some of it will be protective. Some of it, you know … because in Thailand basically, [00:43:45] it's really the rich and the poor that use magic, not necessarily the middle classes. Yeah. And there's also people like Ajarn Samat, [43:57] who is one of the most remarkable satyan ajahms I've ever met. Man, he has it. He has it. Yeah? And for me, he's the best satyan ajarn in Bangkok, but he's difficult to see, he has a mostly retired clientele. His work is not beautiful. It's very old [00:44:15] style. It's very ancient witcha, but man, he has it, whoo! You know, so all these things are available for people who need it, finding the very traditional Thai ones will only be done by the Thai people, but then there are other ones who become famous outside the country as well. ANDREW: So, let me ask you this question then. So, where does where does morality fit in these kinds of practices, you know? PETER: [00:44:45] In what respect?  ANDREW: So, if someone's coming to have work done to bring a relationship back together, is that … is that seen as both people should be there and consent? Is it seen as one person who wants this to happen can do the work and that could work? You know we talked about defense and aggression and these other kinds of things. Is there a morality in [00:45:15] there? Or is that sort of purely a Western question and not even relevant? PETER: Well, it's, well, there's a morality in everything in life. It just depends on your personal standpoint. And, many ajarns nowadays, a lot of the really heavy stuff has gone back in the cupboard, because it's not needed anymore, yeah? So, but I'd say Ajarn Cau, who's a particularly lovely ajarn who I got along very well with in towards [00:45:46] Doi Saket, the mountains to the east. He only pulls lovers back together who were already married, and they have to prove it to him. Yeah, he will ask them for impossible things to get. You know, if they can, the skin off the bottom of his foot or her foot, depending on which partner wants the other partner to come back, and, and he will help them get back together, because that is an act of metta, he [00:46:16] is helping keep the couple together.  At the same time, he will basically attempt to get the person who is bringing the ... paying for the ritual to understand that all the ritual does is bring them back. It's not going to fix your relationship problems. So, if you turn around and be angry, it's not going to keep them there. This is not making a slave out of somebody, [00:46:46] yeah? So there isn't really anything aggressive within that. I mean, really, you know, people often ask the question: What is black magic in Thailand? You know, yes, then you get a different answer from everybody, but when they ask the same ajarn, the ajarn always said, well, you know attraction. He said, I might use part of somebody's skull for attraction. Esanay, [47:12] we call it, and he said, but it's just an air magic. It's not … it's [00:47:16] not black magic. He said, you're just attracting somebody, where's the harm in that? You're not kind of turning them into a slave. You're just attracting them. ANDREW: Right? If the work isn't … The work isn't geared towards removing people's free will. The work is geared towards providing opportunity, and that opportunity, especially sort of based on what you said in the earlier part of the conversation too, that opportunity is both access [00:47:46] to the opportunity of that thing and also the opportunity to grow as a person to embody that thing. PETER: Exactly.  ANDREW: Yeah.  PETER: Yeah. So, you know other people think the use of any human materials is black magic in itself, which I don't, I don't consider it to be. There's all sorts of … We'll not get into the Thai thoughts about death, because you know, everybody does … they're not … well, you know, it's just part of life. And generally, most … some ajarns [00:48:16] think that anything with human materials is black magic. Some ajarns only think that anything that is forceful is black magic, anything that is cursing is black magic, and they really try not to do it nowadays. ANDREW: Hmm. PETER: Yeah, they will do something called a kong ritual, which is a ritual. It's like a controlling ritual you do in the graveyard and it's to rebalance [00:48:46] some sort of relationship. A work relationship, your boss is being a bit of a bastard to you, etc. You'll bring a kong ritual just to slap him down a little bit, slap him down for a few months, let the relationship become better between you, and then it wears off. And they are extremely effective, these. But then, you know, you get people coming forward wanting people hurt or dead or [00:49:16] forced into bankruptcy or something serious and to be honest nowadays, yes, it can be done, but most ajarns will say no. And the only … And there's some very knowledgeable people about cursing in this city. Terrifyingly knowledgeable, but they just choose not to do it unless it's for the right reason. Yeah, because you know, they're bringing … They're forcing something, they're bringing something [00:49:46] difficult to themselves. Everybody nowadays is now trying to strike the correct balance. ANDREW: Hmm. And do you see that shift as coming out of a shift in cultural values, or is it a shift in the difference in the quality of life now versus in the past? PETER: It's both, you know, the government's also … 10 to 15 years ago, they started clamping [00:50:16] down, they started stopping people who had died violently being buried. Yeah? Originally …. Only anybody who died a difficult death, which basically reflects like a really bad karma was buried, everybody else was burnt, right? So, these ground … And they're exactly the people that the ajarns want to use the [00:50:47] products from, yeah? And they basically stopped doing that 10 to 15 years ago. So, slowly but surely, that source is being exhausted. You know, Thailand is becoming a very developed country, access to the human materials is becoming extremely difficult, and, you know, it's not as wild here as it used to be, people need more, less protection in many ways, more metta, [00:51:17] more senay, … Because now you know the times have changed. Gone are the days where they could just chop a corpse's head off and leave a watermelon. You know, now they believe that a better protection is to have so much metta that somebody doesn't want to hurt you anyway, is to be such a lovely person that attracts other people, it makes you difficult to attack, you know, so as cultures develop the way they use [00:51:47] their magical knowledge develops, which is actually the sign of any living form of magic, isn't it? ANDREW: Well, it reminds me of martial arts practice, right? You know, I mean, a lot of people start off in you know, something a little harder like karate or whatever, and you know, they want to fight and use their muscles and whatever, and as you, you know, hopefully as you age and get a little wiser, you know, you move to something more circular and more soft and you know, like, you know, nothing … Not that you can't, you know, throw [00:52:17] that punch if you need to but it's often more like, oh, I can just redirect this and just flow with things in a completely different manner and therefore I won't have that problem any more. PETER: Oh, I always recommend running away. It's fucking great for avoiding problems. ANDREW: Yeah, exactly, right? Exactly. [laughing]  ANDREW: Just don't be there in the first place, right? PETER: And also … Exactly, the greatest defense! I mean, this is not counting somebody who comes up being an absolute idiot. In which case, finish it and then run away. Yeah? I mean, [00:52:47] I've [? 52:49] done martial arts for about 20 years. But really, it should just be about happiness, physical comfort, you know, nothing more difficult to attack than somebody who's happy, you know, and that relates to what we were just saying about the magic as well. You know, it's … As soon as you're aggressive, it gives people something to hang onto. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Well, and possibly puts you off balance, then, right? PETER: Well, [00:53:17] everything goes to your head.  ANDREW: Yeah. Mm-hmm. PETER: And if what you're trying to do is not to let it go, though, because that raises your center of balance as well, and you become slow and you tense. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Yep.  PETER: So, it's all … they're very interrelated in many respects, actually, you know, and just retaining that open clear mind rather than being pulled by your emotions all the time, you know. It's … and in many ways, to get the martial arts, is one of them. Meditation [00:53:47] works. You know, what have you found works, Andrew, for you? ANDREW: Yeah, I mean meditation. I did martial arts for a long time. Martial arts was a good road for getting over being angry, to me. You know, I sort of worked through my anger there in an environment where I could sort of explore power dynamics very openly. And yeah, just, you know, returning, you know, returning my attention back always to like, I [00:54:17] don't know how to put it. So, there's you know, there's that transcendent sort of samadhi kind of loss of attachment to yourself and your daily life. You know, so that piece of it combined with just very practical cultivation of self and a sustainable life, right? Like just, what do I need? What do I need to do? Where am I showing up? Where do I feel I'm lacking? Why do I feel I'm lacking there? Is [00:54:47] there something I actually need and just, you know, kind of cycling through those different patterns of, I guess, growth-orientated questions. And, you know, it's … It does wonders for removing unhelpful hungers and, you know, and sort of recognizing the own … my own internal bullshit for what it is, which, then, allows me to show up more, right?  PETER: Well, there's nothing like … Yeah, there's nothing like a good bit of bullshit within ourselves as well, you know? There's [00:55:17] many things that we can pull on.  ANDREW: Yeah. PETER: You know, there's many, many, there's many advantages to these things, but it's just knowing what they are … ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Yep. PETER: … Is the difficult thing and not being led by them, you know, and I'm sure you'd agree that when we get, you know, when you get past the monkey mind, as they call it here.  ANDREW: Yeah.  PETER: You know the relation … Your relationship with time changes, your relationship with people changes.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm.  PETER: You know, the way you can [00:55:47] sit with people changes … ANDREW: Yeah.  PETER: The way, you know, the joy of life changes. ANDREW: And the way in which people receive you changes.  PETER: Completely.  ANDREW: Right? Because when you … When you show up and you're genuinely present with other people, they feel that, you know, and if you have, you know, if you want to call it metta, it's not really a word I would use, but you know, but you know, compassion or you know, those … That sort of openness to other people and seeing them for who they are without judgments or overt attachments. That's a [00:56:17] completely different dynamic, right? That goes to a completely different place than, you know, when you show up and you're just like, oh my God, I so need this or that or whatever from you. Right? PETER: Well, it's also, I mean, I'm very lucky to be able to go anywhere in Thailand, literally, anywhere. You know? My partner's family, we were there a few months ago, and I said, “oh, I'm gonna go to Surat Veree [? 56:43] because I want to photograph this particular shrine for the book.” And I said, “Where is the bus [00:56:47] go from, the minibus? She said, “Oh, from there.” And so, I've got up at like 4:00 o'clock, I got the 5 o'clock bus, I was there by 6, and the driver dropped me off as close as he could to the temple. Ten seconds later, a motorbike boy came up, took me to visit the temple. We had a quick bit of breakfast together, which I paid for, of course, it was very nice. Then I did the photographs, he waited for me, he drove me back. I jumped on the next mini bus which arrived seconds later, and I rode back up to Bangkok and back to [00:57:17] family home in about four hours, three and a half hours. And the response was, “How have you done that? How?” Yeah, I said, well, it just kind of happens. If you just connect to people, you know, he's not the driver of a minibus. He's a man who's having to get through a day and hopefully support his family, you know? He is not just a motorbike guy, he might be an older [00:57:47] man who's had a very interesting life, and you treat him with some respect. You know, if you look, you look people in the eye, you make those connections, you open your heart. ANDREW: Yeah. Well when I was in India, I wanted to go to Bodghaya, where the Buddha was enlightened? Or, I'm sorry, where the Buddha first preached the dharma, right? And, you know, and I went … So I wanted to go to these places, but there's [00:58:17] nothing there, right, there's just temples. It's just a city of temples and a few restaurants, things to support people, but nobody … I don't think people really live there or whatever and there's definitely no trains or whatever. So I arrived in the nearest city and--which wasn't that far away--but there was this huge strike there that day, and I was trying to find somebody who'd be willing to take me, 'cause I was only there for a day because I left it to sort of towards the end of my trip, [00:58:47] because I was trying to kind of hit a couple of important places, and two things happened, which remind me exactly of this conversation.  So, one was, I was walking down the street, and it was a long street with a big park and government building, I think, on the other side, and it was just this huge fence that ran along this massive park all the way along. There's no easy way there, no gates, you would have to climb it and it was all houses on the other side and all the houses were basically [00:59:17] attached and there's no roads or alleys or whatever.  And I'm like mid-block, and then I hear this huge ruckus and the people who are protesting are coming down the street, and there's this mob of people, with sticks and signs, and they're yelling and screaming and whatever, and I look at the crowd and I turn around and I look and there's this gentleman standing in his door, and I just look at him and I point at myself and I point inside his house and he's just like, yes, [00:59:47] like just, waved with his hands, like yes, come in my house [laughing], and so we go in his house. He closes the door. We wait for everybody to pass. And he had no English, you know, my Hindi is not particularly, you know, I knew a few things like hello, and thank you, and whatever, and we just waited in his house and stood there and looked at each other very pleasantly and peacefully and whatever. And then you know, when it was obvious that this, the sound had passed and the people were gone. He opened the door, and looked out, and then he gave me a pat on the back [01:00:17] and you know, sent me on my way.  And then a few minutes later, I ran into this guy who was driving a, like one of those cycle rickshaws, this really older gentleman, and I got … I just like looked at him and I'm like, “I want to go here,” and he's like, “sure!” And so, he took me and we rode this bicycle through the countryside and stopped at a couple farms and all these amazing things. And then, when we got there, on top of paying him for his time, I also bought him lunch. And we just [01:00:47] sat there. He also had, you know, basically no English and we just sat there eating together and looking at each other and smiling. And you know, there's such a connection that can happen when you're open to those things, and like I say, when you're going for a purpose and when you go in with a certain way, that road can just open for you, right? You know? PETER: It just happens … and it really happens because you're not thinking …  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. PETER: And by not thinking, you're taking away the barriers that people can come, [01:01:17] that generally stop people relating to you… ANDREW: Yeah, for sure.  PETER: You know, it's a remarkable period of time here, you know, but, especially this last few years, going through the process of doing all this work, because it just, it just happened. Just, it was just, doors kept opening and things kept telling me what to do next, and you [01:01:47] know, and then we got to the point where this, you know, we managed to finish this work. ANDREW: Yeah. PETER: And yeah, there were bits where it wasn't easy, but it's still found a way to be done.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. For sure.  PETER: And you know, it's … Even my partner sometimes says, “How have you done this?” [laughing] ANDREW: Mm-hmmm.  PETER: You know. “How have you done it?” Well it kind of just gave me the opportunity to do it and then it kind of did itself.  ANDREW: Yeah. They meet you [01:02:17] halfway. You know? Or more than halfway sometimes, right? Yeah.  PETER: Yeah, they do. And also, I've really been wanting, you know, I've kind of resisted it for the first, God, 20 years of coming here … ANDREW: Mm-hmm. PETER: Because that was apparent when I first came over.  ANDREW: Yeah. PETER: And kind of waited until I was ready to kind of do it. ANDREW: Yeah. PETER: You know, it's been quite old and extremely rewarding and rather wonderful. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. It's [01:02:47] fantastic. Well, I mean, maybe, we've been on the phone for a long time here. Maybe we should wrap this up, because I could talk to you all day. This is a wonderful conversation. So, first of all ... PETER: It'd be nice with a cup of tea and a biscuit, wouldn't it? [laughing] ANDREW: Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Well, you know, I'll let you know when I'm going to be in Bangkok or Thailand, some time. And we'll make that happen. For people who want to check out this book, and you know, if this stuff really interests you, and you're, you know, you really should [01:03:17] check out the book. It's quite a, it's quite an amazing work. Where do people find you, and where do people find your book? PETER: I'm easy found in two places. One is on Facebook through the Thai Occult book page, and the easiest place to click on the book to get the Timeless editions would be through the Thai Occult.com, all one word.  ANDREW: Perfect.  PETER: I can't … And there's [01:03:47] two book pictures on the front cover, one from the Sak Yant book and then the new one on the Thai occult. Of the … to be honest, I'm very very very proud of the new one, the Sak Yant book and yes, we have some superb interviews with the guys, some of the makers in there, but having just produced something really good, I'd love to go back and rewrite it. ANDREW: Isn't [01:04:17] that always the way, right? Isn't that always the way? PETER: Though to be honest with you, I don't think I'm going to do … I don't think I'll be in that position, with the new one. I don't think I could have made a much better job, to be honest. There's always more, it's going to come up, but as a broad taste as a buffet of the Thai occult, I don't think … It'd be difficult to do a better job than this, in my opinion. ANDREW: Perfect. Well, go and check it out, and support [01:04:47] Peter's work and you know, thanks for being on, Peter and thanks to everybody, as always, for listening. PETER: It's been lovely. Thank you. 

Tiny Farms CEO and co-founder Andrew Brentano thinks cricket protein will ensure future food security. Tiny Farms is an AgTech and Precision Farming company that produces food grade cricket protein for use in pet food and animal feed applications offering a sustainable, safe, reliable protein source for pets, livestock animals, and people.Transcript:Lisa:This is Method To The Madness, a biweekly public affairs show on KALX Berkeley, celebrating Bay Area innovators. I'm your host Lisa Kiefer. Today, I'm speaking with Andrew Brentano, the Co-Founder and CEO of tiny farms. Welcome to the program, Andrew.Andrew:Oh, thank you.Lisa:You are the perfect guest for a show about innovation. Co-Founder of Tiny Farms. First of all, tell us what Tiny Farms does, and what is the problem you're trying to solve.Andrew:We are basically, precision ag company. What we're doing, is we're trying to grow a whole lot of crickets. The big problem we're addressing is that we basically cannot produce enough animal protein to keep up with the demand. We've got growing population, growing per capita consumption and also a really huge growing pet food market, which is consuming a huge amount of meat. Traditional meat consumption, your livestock, your pigs, your chickens and your cows, is a hugely resource-intensive endeavor.You're concentrating huge amounts of feed, 25 30% of all the crop lands on earth are just growing feed for animals. Then we're also grazing about 25% of the earth's surface for cattle. There's really not any room to expand. We really have to find these higher efficiency ways to supply that animal protein that people need.Lisa:You have found, what I think is a pretty unique niche in this market of cricket farming, protein farming. I know the argument about cattle using energy and all of that, but what you're saying is that dogs, chickens, all of these other animals. If we can feed those animals your product, we can make equivalent savings, maybe?Andrew:Yeah. We can offset these huge resource environmental footprints. If we take the pet food example, in the US, we're feeding about 30 billion pounds or more of meat just to dogs and cats every year. That market is growing like 6% year over year. If we can, instead produce crickets, which use just a tiny fraction of the food and the water and the space required, we can essentially get more from less. We can meet this demand without just completely overextending our current resources.Lisa:Okay. When did you start this company?Andrew:We started in late 2012. We initially got the idea ... of course it took a while for markets to actually developed. We were a little bit ahead of the curve. We've been-Lisa:Do you mind if I ask how you came to this? Were you doing market analysis studies or looking at big data? How did you figure out that this was a niche?Andrew :In that moment, what we were doing was really just thinking about big existential problems. We were trying to decide what should we be spending our time and energy on and had really started drilling into food production. Everyone's got to eat. It's the largest and most resource-intensive endeavor that humans do on this planet and also one of the most immediately going to be effected by climate change, population growth, et cetera. What we realized when we were diving in was that meat production was this huge concentration of where all the resources were going, It was the most inefficient place and also the highest demand. Everyone wants to eat meat. We thought, wow, this is-Lisa:Yes. Especially with incomes going up.Andrew:Exactly.Lisa:First thing they want to do is have the steak that you and I have.Andrew :Exactly.Lisa:Right?Andrew:This westernization of diets around the globe, all these trends were pointing to essentially meat crunch in really the relatively near future. People need this protein, but how do we produce protein more efficiently but that still has a high-quality nutritional profile? We're looking at agriculture. We were looking at algae and fungus. Then we came across a body of research about insects and their nutritional values and their production efficiencies, historical uses around the world, and it just made so much sense.Lisa:Who's using crickets? I assume some of these countries have been using crickets for thousands of years, is that correct?Andrew:Yeah. Particularly in Oaxaca, in Mexico and some other Central American cultures. There are long traditions of eating crickets and grasshoppers, both interchangeably. A number of African cultures also like different types of crickets that are native, crickets and katydids. Then in Thailand, more recently, I think there's been a long tradition of eating different insects. Very recently, there's been quite a growth in, particularly the cricket market there. The Thai government has even, for the last 10, 20 years been sponsoring and promoting this. There's now tens of thousands of small backyard cricket farms supporting those largely street markets.Lisa:How did you start? Were you right out of college, or what was your motivation here?Andrew:I guess, I was about two and a half years out of college. I went to University of British Columbia, studied absolutely unrelated to agriculture, a program called cognitive systems. It was AI information systems, linguistics. What that did instill was this mindset of systems thinking. I'd worked an AI startup. My Co-Founder Jenna, who's now is my wife, had been working for an artist. She went to Rhode Island School of Design. She was managing an artist business in LA. We'd been living in LA for a couple of years and decided this wasn't fulfilling. This wasn't really where we wanted to be or what we wanted to be doing.That was where we took a summer, went and started doing freelance web development just to pay the bills and took this time to decide what are we going to do with our lives that's can be meaningful. That's what led us into this. It was important that, you we found something that we could do that would apply our creativity and actually be meaningful. HLisa:You know how we're all about organic and sustainable. How does that fit into the cricket industry? What do they eat? How do you follow the path to make sure they're sustainable and that they're organic?Andrew:Yeah. The great thing about crickets is they'll eat anything, pretty much. I mean, they're basically omnivorous. Anything you could feed a pig, or a chicken, or a cow, or basically any other kind of animal, they can eat. They really have a very high, what's called feed conversion ratio, which is basically the amount of food they have to eat to grow a certain weight as a ratio. With crickets, it's about 1.7:2 pounds of food to get 1 pound of cricket. To give comparison, chickens are more like 3:1. Pigs are between 4 and 6:1. Cows can range from 8:20:1, depending on what the diets are. Even if you fed them the exact same thing you fed a commercial chicken, you're using much less of that feed.You've got this corresponding, way much smaller land and water footprint. Then because they are so efficient converting that feed and they'll eat anything, we can then take food by-product streams and agricultural by-product streams and incorporate that into the feed formula. That can range anything from stale bread, which commercial bakeries, large scale ones are producing millions of pounds of stale bread or excess bread. They essentially overproduce by about two what they actually sell. Then we can also go to agricultural processing. There are huge streams of by-products, like dried distiller grains that come out of ethanol production, spent brewer's grain, juice pulp from the citrus industry.Lisa:The wine industry.Andrew:The wine industry. Exactly. Almond holes are huge one in the United States, or in California alone, we're producing 150 million tons of almond holes every year.Lisa:They're kind of like goats in the insect world.Andrew:Yeah.Lisa:They'll clean everything up.Andrew:Right. All we have to do is balance the different inputs, so we get the nutritional profile that grows the cricket efficiently We understand that pretty well. We can basically say, okay, we'll take 20% of this, 30% of that, 50% of that, blended altogether, and then we can just grow our crickets.Lisa:You been able to notice differences in tastes of your crickets by what you're feeding them?Andrew:One of the reasons crickets are so good, is they have a pretty mild and generally pleasant taste regardless what you feed them. You definitely can tell different things. You'll get either a nuttier cricket. Sometimes it'll be because the cricket is a little fatty or a little leaner.Lisa:What would you feed it to make it fatty?Andrew:You could feed it, for one, more fat or a higher carb diet. You can make it leaner by having more of a protein and fiber formulation. We've fed them carrots in the past and they turn just a tiny hue, more orange. They actually pick up a tiny bit of that sweeter carrot taste.Lisa:Do you ever feed them chocolate?Andrew :We've never fed them chocolate. It's a bit expensive.Lisa:How do your vegetarian or vegan customers feel about this product? Do they have any concerns?Andrew:There's two camps. There's one camp where folks are vegetarian and vegan primarily because of sustainability issues, humane treatment of animals, ethical issues. Those are exactly the issues that we're targeting and trying to address with cricket production. Those folks are generally very, very receptive to incorporating insect protein into their own diets. What's really exciting for these people is when we say, yeah, did you know there's dog and cat food you can get with insect protein? You've got vegetarians and vegans, but they still have a pet cat that they have to feed meat too.It creates a real dissonance for them. It's an amazing solution for those folks. Then there's folks that maybe have a religious or spiritual aversion to actually eating living animals. For those folks, that's fine. That's a different set of issues. Insects are living things, and if they decide that's not what they want to eat, it's not the product for them. We generally think that we have a great solution for the folks that really see the fundamental environmental and ethical issues around meat production.Lisa:If you're just tuning in, you're listening to Method To The Madness, a biweekly public affairs show on KALX Berkeley, celebrating Bay Area innovators. Today, we're speaking with Andrew Brentano, the Co-Founder and CEO of Tiny Farms. Tiny Farms is building the infrastructure for a new category of our food system, cricket protein, one that will play a big part in ensuring future food security. Talking about your products, and you just covered one, which is feeding pets. What other products do you have, and who are your customers?Andrew:Our core business is the design and development of a high-efficiency cricket production facility. That's really the big problem. We want to get crickets out into the market, but how do you do that? How do you produce enough crickets cheap enough that it can actually become this bulk commodity that could reasonably offset traditional meats. In a way, our core product is actually this method for producing them and then also how do you process them into palatable ingredient.Lisa:I read that your method was unique in that it avoids the monoculture of most agriculture.Andrew:Yeah. One of the fundamental problems that we see in traditional livestock production, farming in general, is that you have these huge centralized productions, whether it's, say 10 thousand acres of soy beans or if it's a mile-long chicken house with 4 million chickens in it. When you think about ecosystems and biology, that's a really unhealthy ecosystem. Also, it's incredibly risky because if something comes in there that's a blight, or past, or a disease [ 00:10:48], it just can, wipe out everything very quickly.The approach that we take is a more distributed model where we'll set up smaller production units, and then we'll put them around in a cluster, in a region. That way, you never have this just huge, enormous centralized population issues of just having a lot of animals in place, breathing and pooping and eating and all of that mess and the potential for pollution. Also, that you significantly reduce this biological risk.Lisa:Crickets get disease and die out like other ...Andrew:We've been lucky. We've never had a blight. We have a very tightly controlled environment, keep the biosecurity levels pretty high. There have been, in actually a different species of cricket than when we grow, there is a disease. It only affects crickets. There's no risk to any people or animals but that have gone around and wiped out some of the cricket farms that have existed in the US. One of the cool things about insects, again, too, is that biologically they're so different from people that you don't have the same zoonotic transfer of diseases the way that you've got your swine flu or your bird flu, which can jump to humans. It's this huge health risk.Every animal has diseases and parasites that can affect them. The cricket is so different. Its life cycle's so different. They don't carry that kind of disease that could jump to a human. It's much safer. Even with a mosquito or a tick, they're transmitting a disease, because they're actually holding some like human blood, Mammalian blood in them. It's not that that animal itself actually gets a disease that can transfer to a human.Lisa:You have a cricket powder, but that's primarily for feeding animals. Does it also go into human-Andrew:We produce this cricket protein powder. It's completely food grade. It's completely perfect to use in human food products or pet food products. We focus on the pet food market, because we see a really, really big opportunity to offset a lot more of the consumption in that space. There are a ton of human food products out on the market, and a bunch of being produced right here in the Bay Area. Chips and snack foods and energy bars and baking flour mixes and stuff that-Lisa:With cricket powder.Andrew:With cricket flour. Yeah. Exactly. In that market, it's awesome. It's a really great way to start introducing to people this idea that they can eat crickets. Long-term, the best possible thing is we stop eating animals as much and we eat much more insect protein. Put it in something that people want to eat anyways, crunchy, healthy snacks.To really have the big impact we want to have, we have to figure out how we can start really replacing the meat that we're using as quickly as possible and as big of volume as possible. That's where we're really focusing on the pet angle. There's actually another company here in Berkeley called Jiminy's. They've released a line of dog treats. The only animal protein in that dog treat is cricket protein. Dogs love this stuff.Lisa:You don't have any retail human products yourself as a company.Andrew:We do supply another brand that is currently distributed at the Oakland Days Coliseum and it's called Oaktown Crickets. In the cricket production, get more into how that works. You harvest most of the crickets at a certain stage in their life when they've got the optimal protein content to make into the protein powder. Then you maintain a chunk of your population to go through adulthood and breed your next generation. Those breeders, we call them, they've got a higher fat content because they're, particular the females, are full of eggs. They're really, really tasty.In Thailand, those are the prized ones that people want. They'll fry them up and sell them in the market. For the protein powder application, they're not very useful. What we do is, those get sold for culinary use. We had local chefs use them in different specials, and then they're being fried and seasoned and packaged in little snack packs and distributed at the Colosseum. [crosstalk] Extra tasty.Lisa:One of your main goals is to address the challenges that are facing agriculture, what we just talked about. Are there any other challenges that you've experienced as you enter this marketplace?Andrew:One of the big fundamental things about how the agricultural system is set up is it's very linear. You extract resources, you dig up phosphorous, you create nitrates and nitrites for fertilizers. You pour them on the fields, you grow these plants, you harvest them out, you process them. You throw away the byproducts. Then you feed the animals, and the animals create a huge amount of poop. You don't know what to do with that. It just sits there. Then the animals get eaten. It's this very just linear extractive system of production.That's part of why we're having so many issues with soil degradation and waterway pollution. We're also just running out of phosphorus, which is its whole own problem. What we really see is an opportunity for insects is to help start close some of these loops and create more of a circular system. If you've got your wheat industry and it creates all of this chaff when you process the wheat into flour ... well if you can efficiently convert that, instead of just say composting it or throwing it out there or using it more inefficiently to feed dairy cow, you can turn that into a really high-quality protein, putting that through the base of the cricket as a bio converter.We've spent the same amount of nutrients and water to produce all parts of that plant. If you only eat a little bit of it, that's not very helpful. Then the cool thing about the crickets is, the waste they produce is completely dry and stable. They're not releasing-Lisa:The cricket poop.Andrew:The cricket poop.Lisa:What is it called?Andrew:It's called frass. That's the technical term for insect poops. It's basically the consistency of sand. If you go by Harris ranch or the big feed lots, and they're just-Lisa:Hold your nose.Andrew:Exactly. Producing huge amounts of nitrous oxide and methane and ammonia. These are greenhouse gas emissions that are many, many times more potent than CO2. Instead, you've got this very, stable, safe product that can be applied directly as soil. It's actually produced dry. You can cost effectively transport it. You-Lisa:And amend your soil with it.Andrew:Exactly. Yeah. You can take it back to the source of production, or you can put out into gardens, community gardens, home gardens, anywhere. The frass, which is our by-product, we've just recently gone through the approval process with the California Department of Agriculture to sell that as a retail fertilizer. We now have one pound and five pound bags of that.Lisa:Where could I find that?Andrew:We've just listed on Amazon, and we're starting to starting in the Berkeley area. We're getting it out to some of the local gardens stores. We're hoping that we'll have a chance to really take on a life of its own. Besides that, we're also able to sell that wholesale to bigger garden and farming operations in the area.Lisa:How did you find the funding to start all these operations?Andrew:Definitely, financing is the least fun and hardest part of starting a business. We were able to bootstrap the first several years. We were just actually building websites on the side while the initial pieces came together. Then when we realized that we really understood what the business model was going to be and what the growth plan was, we were able to go out and convince a handful of angel investors to come in and put enough money that we were able to launch our first R&D farm down in San Leandro.That was really just a process of getting out there, both going to pitch events, networking, going to basically the places where the kind of people are who care about sustainability and the food system, who understood the issues. Actually, a number of our investors found us, which was great. We had enough of a presence on social media and had been featured at a few events that they said, "Hey, I really believe in what you're doing." They understood why, and they knew it was going to be a long road to get there.They were very supportive. Then, from there, once you've got initial traction, then as you need more funding, you go out, find ways of getting in front of the right people and being able to tell that story and show how the payoff is going to happen down the road.Lisa:Everybody's pretty aware. It's a huge problem.Andrew:It's amazing how the awareness and focus changed from 2012 to now, because when we started and we're going out there saying, hey, insect protein is this amazing solution. People just raised eyebrows. Now, we go out there and people say, "Yeah, we know, but how are you going to implement it?" Which is much better conversation, because we actually get right into the meat of what we're doing and how we're solving the problem. We don't have to worry about spending half an hour just convincing someone that they should even take us seriously.Lisa:Who are your major competitors?Andrew:The industry is so new, The demand for the product keeps growing at a rate that, essentially, we're not able to directly compete, because we're all just trying to keep up with the scaling of demand. There's a farm down in Austin, Texas, which has gotten some great funding and done some cool stuff, building their operation. There's a big operation up in Ontario, Canada that's been one of the major suppliers in North America.Lisa:Internationally?Andrew:They're a good number of companies in Thailand and Southeast Asia, starting to be a little more presence in Mexico. When we think about it, for us to saturate this market, they're going to have to be thousands of cricket farms, right? We have this concept of a benign competition. When they have a win, that's good for us, because we're growing this opportunity together. It's much less cut throat than you find in more matured and saturated markets.Lisa:There's room to grow in it. Yeah. For sure.Andrew:Huge, huge opportunity.Lisa:Have you had any negative response?Andrew:Certainly. Particularly early on, you got a lot of ew, yuck. What are you doing? What's great about people, is that we really quickly get used to ideas. The same folks we would talk to six years ago and say, "Hey, we think you should try eating crickets." They'd say basically, "No way in hell would I do that." My test is based. I'm sitting on an airplane and the person next to me says, "Hey, what do you do?" How does that conversation go? Six years ago, went one way. Now, Lyft drivers or just folks out of the coffee shop I say, "Hey, we do cricket protein." Almost immediately, people now start telling me why it's a good idea. I mean, it's amazing how the public perception has shifted. I think it's really just a consequence of exposure.Lisa:If you can find a tasty way to get protein and not have to pay what you pay for meat ...Andrew:The market's so young. It's still a pretty premium product. The price point is similar to that of an equivalent meat product. So like the cricket protein powder is basically a dried ... It's 60% protein, 20% fat. It's this really nutrient dense product. It costs similarly as if you bought meat and dehydrated it. What that would cost, 15 to $20 a pound, which seems like a lot. Then you think you're reducing that down. You can get your fresh crickets. The costs of production is similar to your higher-end meat now. What's great is that's with really barely any R&D that's been done over the last few years.Lisa:Barely anybody in the marketplace.Andrew:Barely anyone in the marketplace. You think about what the price of chicken and beef is right now. That's the result of 50 years and trillions of dollars. Our industry, with five years and a few million dollars of development, is already getting competitive with meat. In the next few years, it's just going to soar below that, which is great. Up until very recently, there'd never been really any indication of actual opposition to the idea. It was just niche enough. No one was really worried about it. We did interestingly have the first high-profile shot across the bow.What happened was, late in July when the Senate was starting to go through their appropriations bill process, Senator Jeff Flake actually introduced a amendment that would specifically ban federal funding for research projects around insects for food use. This really caught us all off guard, what seemed to come out of absolutely nowhere.It was very strange and essentially someone had brought to the senator's attention that a handful of small innovation grants had gone out from the USDA to companies that were developing food products with insect protein. It's not the kind of thing that someone like Jeff Flake would just pick up. Someone out there suddenly cared enough to bring that to his attention. We don't really know exactly what went on there.Lisa:You don't know what went on.Andrew:Not yet. Yeah. We have an industry group. There's over 90 companies in the United States, Almost every state, there are companies working with insect protein, whether it's for pet food or animal feed or for human food, both on the production side and the product side. This is actually an amazing opportunity for American economic growth, American leadership. It's very surprising that something would come along like this that you would want to block federal research funding. Specifically, it's the small business innovation research grants that were being referenced. We've received some of the same grants as well.Lisa:Was that this year?Andrew:This was just a few months ago. Now, very luckily, that amendment was not accepted into the final version of the appropriations bill. We realize like, oh, there are people that care enough to start throwing up some roadblocks. That's actually a good sign for us that we're being taken seriously in that way.Lisa:That's a positive way to look at it.Andrew:For us, anytime that we have a conversation with someone and I convinced someone that they should take this seriously or they should go to A's game and buy a pack of crickets or they should go to the pet store and get some Jiminy's treats that they can feed their dog. That's a huge win for me.Lisa:Yeah.Andrew:Every time I'd ride in a Lyft or sit on an airplane, that's an opportunity. Yeah. I mean, there's already been this level of engagement, which is great.Lisa:I wanted to ask you about other projects. One of them I'm intrigued with is the Open Bug Farm.Andrew:In a earlier stage of our business development, we actually developed an open source mealworm farming kit, basically for people at home who are interested in this. The could either buy the kit from us or the designs were online. It was all off-the-shelf components, so they can make it themselves.Lisa:Like having chickens in your backyard.Andrew:That was the same kind of idea.Lisa:Instead, it's crickets.Andrew :Exactly how we were modeling it. In fact, a lot of the people who were interested in that, wanted to grow the mealworms to feed their chickens. That project didn't end up being really good business model for us. We didn't keep selling the kits, but we kept the designs for it out there. What was really great was around that project, we just launched a forum and a huge number of people came to that forum and asked questions and provided expertise. We were able to share some of our expertise on the topic.Now, there's this huge information resource that just has tons and tons of discussion about raising different kinds of insects at different scales, from commercial to home scale. We're really happy that exists out there. We get a lot of inquiries from people that say, "Hey, I just want to start growing some crickets for myself or some meal worms" or whatever it is. We don't have time to help every one of those people individually. We're able to say, "Hey, go over to the forum here, because there's just this huge drove information."Lisa:What do you see in the future?Andrew:Looking at the future, there's just so much room for growth. For us, the key thing is just get more commercial cricket farms built over the next years. Get the production ramped up, instead of just being able to have niche premium pet treats on the market. There can be full-diet pet foods and then maybe even your mainstream pet foods. If the Walmart brand of dog food could have even 5% cricket protein instead of meat, we'd be saving millions and millions of pounds of meat, hundreds of millions of gallons of water. It's all just about being able to grow the production volume to be able to meet those demands.For us, the path to doing that is not just building cricket farms ourselves but to be able to take the facility that we've designed and package that into a turnkey product that we could then license out to a production partner. Because we got a lot of inbound inquiry from folks that say, "Hey, I would love to start a cricket farm, but I don't really know how." There's great opportunity to leverage that and provide a ready-made solution where you can say, "Well, here's the setup and here's the training. We can provide the technical support." Then you can grow these crickets, and then we can help you process that into the protein powder that we can get out to the market."That's really the longer term growth strategy, is being able to engage with all these partners. Over the last several years, we've had hundreds and hundreds of people contact us, say, "I'm a dairy farmer, but I want to get into crickets." A lot of folks with agricultural backgrounds, maybe they grew up on a farm, but their parent's farm isn't quite big enough to support them coming back to work on the farm. They say, "Hey, maybe I could throw up an outbuilding and we could have a cricket farm there."There's a huge amount of opportunity for people that essentially have cricket production as their own business and be able to feed into the supply chain where we can have this huge impact offsetting meat. Fundamentally, what we are after is really converting, like I mentioned, this linear extractive food production system into a circular sustainable food production system. Right now, we're just so overextended on our demands, on the very limited resources that we have available in terms of water and soil and arable lands and even just nutrients available to grow crops.We're going to stop being able to produce food. When we talk to folks in the chicken industry or the beef industry, they're actually all very interested in the potential for the insect protein in the feed for their animals. Because all these animals are not just eating plant-based proteins. Almost all the animal feeds out there also have some amount of fishmeal in them, which supplements key amino acids and fats that you don't find produced in plants. Fishmeal production is a really shocking industry. We basically send out ships that scoop up indiscriminately, all the small fish. Particularly, they'll go scoop up whole schools of anchovetas and anchovies. Then they just grind that up into a powder and send it off into the animal feed formulations.Essentially, all that farmed salmon is basically eating wild fish that's been caught and ground up and pelletized and then fed back to that salmon. Something like 90% of fisheries are on the verge of collapse or have already collapsed. There's a huge amount of interest in introducing insect proteins into animal feeds. The FDA and AAFCO, which is the organization that controls what can go into animal feeds, have already approved soldier fly proteins, which is another insect that's being widely grown for use in salmon feeds. Now, the FDA has also just indicated that they think that should also be allowed in poultry feed. Poultry feed is one of the biggest consumers of fishmeal in the land-based agriculture.Lisa:Do you have a website that people can go to?Andrew:Our company is Tiny Farms. The website is just www.tiny-farms.com. Yeah. You can check out our basic offering. You can contact us through the contact form.Lisa:Are you selling tiny farm hats, like you have on? [crosstalk]Andrew:We've printed short-runs of shirts and had these hats made just for the team. There's enough interest that I think we'll get those listed up there soon. We just have to start thinking about the food system, in terms of a self-sustaining system and not like feel good sustainability. This has to be a system that can continue to produce food forever.Lisa:There are a lot of us living here, and we'll need every tool we can use if we want to keep enjoying it.Andrew:Yeah. Exactly.Lisa:Thank you, Andrew, for being on program.Andrew:Thank you. This was fun.Lisa:You've been listening to Method To The Madness, a biweekly public affairs show on KALX Berkeley, celebrating Bay Area innovators. You can find all of our podcasts on iTunes University. We'll be back again in two weeks. 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Join Ben Lima for a conversation on the topics of imperial and modern China with Michael Szonyi. Click here to learn more about Michael Szonyi  Recorded and Edited by Andrew Oh

Join Ben Lima for a conversation with Sandra Russ, a distinguished University Professor and Louis D. Beaumont University Professor at Case Western Reserve University. Her research has focused on understanding how pretend play is involved in child development and in child psychotherapy. She is the author of Pretend Play in Childhood: The Foundation of Adult Creativity (2013), American Psychological Association. Edited by Andrew Oh

TeeDee and Andrew talk about the values of initiation. How it changes a person and how that enhances ones talents. They also talk about Oshun and how Teedee understands her after 20 years of initiation.  Connect with TeeDee on her website. Think about how much you've enjoyed the podcast and how many episodes you listened to and think consider if it is time tosupport the  Patreon You can do so here. If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe by RSS , iTunes, Stitcher, or email. Thanks for listening! If you dig this please subscribe and share with those who would like it. Andrew   ANDREW: Welcome to another installment of The Hermit's Lamp podcast. I'm here today with T-D González, who I know from the Orisha community, and who has been making some wonderful product and really representing some of the things that I think are significant and important about both tradition and initiation. So, for folks who don't know you, T-D, who are you? What are you about? T-D: [laughing] So, I am an Olorisha of the Afro-Cuban Lucumí tradition, initiated to the Orisha Ochún. I was ordained in Cuba in 1999. I live in Los Angeles, California. I'm a mother of two little boys. I'm a widow. I have a lot going on. And I've enjoyed making spiritual baths, which was one of the first things that I learned, one of the first things that many of us learn in the religion. And I've been doing that for about 20 years now, and I just recently began to sell a dried spiritual bath utilizing the herbs that we use in Orisha worship, in Lucumí Afro-Cuban Orisha worship that pertain to Ochún, so it's an Ochún bath. And I'm really excited about it, I love making it, I love working with the herbs, and it's a lifelong learning process for me.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm, yeah, it's awesome. I think we need to definitely talk about the herbs but the first question that I want to kind of start with us talking about is, who is Ochún?  T-D: [laughing] ANDREW: Right? And I ask this because, you know, I had David Sosa on a while back, and we talked -- T-D: Mmmhmm, mmmhmm, my dear friend.  ANDREW: Local human. And, I think it's really important because I think Ochún is, possibly from what I see, one of the most popular of the Orishas, and yet so much of what I see, in general conversation from, you know, people outside of the tradition doesn't often jive very well with my understanding of her from a traditional context at all. T-D: Right. ANDREW: And even in the traditional context, you know, I mean, some of my elders basically say, well she's kind of unknowable.  T-D: Right. And she's a deeply misunderstood Orisha.  ANDREW: Right! T-D: She's very popular and well loved, probably because of her beauty and because of her dominion over some of the aspects of life that obviously all of us are striving to attain or to enjoy.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: But she is deeply misunderstood. So -- And she means different things, probably, to different people, even among initiates. ANDREW: Yeah. T-D: I see Ochún as elegance and beauty, but maybe not necessarily in the most apparent ways or in the most superficial ways. And I definitely see Orisha as working through other people. So Ochún for me is a motherly figure -- ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: And she's forgiving and she's understanding and she's compassion, but she also can be stern, and she also can teach us very difficult lessons. And she also demands respect. And she demands regard for the counsel that she gives us, you know.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: So, in some ways I always say, you know, I'm a little bit afraid of Ochún. I'm dedicated to her, I'm crowned to her, I love her, obviously, I've dedicated my life to Ochún, and she's blessed my life in many many ways. But Ochún is not an easy crown to wear. People make lots of assumptions about her children and things of that nature. Ochún is a very complex Orisha. On, you know, in the most basic terms, you know, we can say Ochún is a healer, Ochún heals with fresh water, Ochún also makes herbal decoctions, Ochún is a diplomat, Ochún is an astute businesswoman, Ochún is multifaceted, she's an incredible cook, she's a wonderful and caring mother, she's a wonderful mate, there are many aspects of Ochún. And obviously, then there is the connective part of Ochún in terms of sparking human connection between one another.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: One of the praise, Oríkìs or praise names for my aspect of Ochún, is Oneabede. A bede is that long brass needle that's used to sew nets. So we can say she knits together the fabric of families ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: Or the web of societies. We could just go on and on.  ANDREW: For sure, yeah. And I think about Ochún in my life, who's been, ever since I, ever since I sort of entered the religion in about 2000, she's been a constant. Right? She's always standing up for me, always there to help me, you know, always showing up when I need something ... T-D: And she's a fighter! [laughing] ANDREW: She is a fighter, right? And like you said, she demands her respect in a way that is unquestionable, you know? So before we do a ... what's called a reading of entry ... T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: Which is before you get crowned, there's a reading that gets done to make sure that everything's good for the ceremony space, right?  T-D: Right. Mmmhmm. ANDREW: Has everything been covered, do we have all the right things, is there some unexpected problem?  T-D: Right. Some call it the vista or the obo de entrada, or, you know.  ANDREW: Yeah. And Ochún, in my reading of entry, showed up and says, "So no matter who's marked as your mother this weekend, I'm always your mother."  T-D: Right. ANDREW: And I was like, "That's right, Mom, you are!" You know? And that continues. And it's definitely that respect piece, but, it's also ... There's a profound intelligence?  T-D: Absolutely. ANDREW: That I think that gets overlooked ... T-D: Absolutely. ANDREW: And that diplomat, that business piece, that ... T-D: That social intelligence, that's really really important. You know?  ANDREW: Yeah. Mmmhmm. T-D: It's really important. And the whole piece of love, love goddess, and that whole thing, procreation, productivity, which she kind of dovetails, obviously, with our supreme, you know, Obatala, is, I think that the element that has to do with love speaks to self-love. And self-acceptance. And self-forgiveness. As much as anything else. It's not always a sexual kind of thing, you know, and attracting the things that we want to -- Ochún has a lot to do with attraction, Ochún has a lot to do with transformation, but it's not always in a sexual way. It can sometimes be and obviously it is, but those aren't the only, you know, avenues for that element in our lives. ANDREW: Yeah, for sure. So, I think I'm just going to have to collect a bunch of children of Ochún speaking about her nature over time on this podcast.  T-D: And I'm sure you'll get 50 different answers -- ANDREW: Yeah! T-D: From 50 different children of Ochún, but -- ANDREW: It will be beautiful. T-D: I want to speak to this thing that you talked about, this whole thing of aché, that we know that we're born with aché, right, and so this aché is this divine, if you want to call it grace, if you want to call it energy, you know, different people call it different things, we're all born with this, right, and we're all made up of this. And some of Vershare's writings even allude to the idea that Oldumare is aché, that God Almighty is aché. We're born with it. And we have our gifts and our grace and our energy, but then to actually be ordained as a priest is to receive the specific aché that we require in order for us to ethically fulfill our destinies, right? That's this idea that we chose a path, that we chose a destiny before we were born. And that we require this aché of these Orishas that we receive aché of, in order to be whole, in a sense, right? Or to be fully aligned with our higher selves. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: And so when we receive this aché, this aché that we receive is not the same aché that we're born with. It's really an amplification, an augmentation of what we have. And then it's almost like, you know Willy talks about this in some of his classes, the oreate ritual specialist Miguel Ramos, talks about this idea that it's almost like you have a bank account deposited of aché. ANDREW: Mmm. T-D: And then you receive, you know, augmentations to that from ceremonies or initiations or additional rites that you undergo.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: And then your behavior and your character help to augment that or to multiply that or deplete it depending on how we conduct ourselves. So those are kind of some avenues or some conversations about aché, and then obviously we have the aché of our, of the Orisha to whom we're primarily dedicated as priests.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: And I think we work for the rest of our lives to kind of develop that and grow that thing, and -- ANDREW: Yeah. And I think there's one other piece that sort of falls into that as well, right? Is that we are initiated, and we receive the energy, the aché -- T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: The grace, right?  T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: The connection to the spirit and so on, right?  T-D: Yes.  ANDREW: But we also are initiated into a lineage. T-D: Absolutely!  ANDREW: And we are connected to this line of people and Orishas and aché that go back -- T-D: Absolutely. ANDREW: As far as we can remember. T-D: Absolutely. Absolutely. That's essential. ANDREW: And I think that this notion of, or this practice of, being initiated into a lineage also adds to it, because ... T-D: Absolutely. ANDREW: It gives us permission, or some people might use the word license -- T-D: Right, licencia. Mmmhmm. ANDREW: To work with these spirits, and it forms a contract or a ... you know, most often talked about, like a family bond, right?  T-D: Right.  ANDREW: Because we use the word egun, which means ancestors ... T-D: Right. ANDREW: And when we use the word egun, we mean our ancestors by blood, our family ... T-D: Right.  ANDREW: And our ancestors by initiations -- T-D: Or by lineage, right.  ANDREW: And I think that this conjunction of the two forces, right? The energy that we receive directly from people, from our ceremonies, and from the spirits themselves, and that energy that we can access and that we can work with through working with these ancestors, I think that that combination really is where the magic happens? T-D: Absolutely. I agree with you wholeheartedly, cause you're calling on that energy.  ANDREW: Yeah! T-D: You're calling on that energy before we do anything, right?  ANDREW: Yeah. T-D: When we recite our mouba, we're literally praising God and the deities and the elements and we're literally calling the names ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: Of those who came before us, of our lineage, and we're calling the names of those exalted priests who existed before us even from outside of our lineage ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: I think that's essential. And yeah, that absolutely speaks to that concept of ritual license. That aché that you receive as an initiate endows you with something that will develop in time with training into ritual license and the ability to perform and to function as a priest on behalf of yourself, on behalf of others, to benefit the community, absolutely. And that is an essential piece, and it speaks to what the Cubans call fundamento, because if you don't have that you're just kind of floundering, fooling around, and this is not that type of thing. And there are absolutely different spiritual traditions and there are people who are born with deep gifts ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: With deep connections to their own ancestors, to their own spirit guides. There are people who have to do little to no work to have the things that they do flourish, but Orisha worship is different from those types of systems and traditions. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: This is absolutely a communal system that requires ordination, initiation, training at the foot of elders, recognition by one's elders. As I said, this is definitely a learning path ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: That one sets their foot upon and they will continue to learn for the rest of their lives.  ANDREW: True. T-D: My mother in law lives with me. She's 85, she just celebrated her 60th year as an Olorisha of Ochún, she has crowned many godchildren, she's a wonderful Diloggún diviner, she is an incredibly knowledgeable herbalist, she's just an all-around Olocha of the type that was fairly common 60 years ago when people were kind of all living on that island in that environment and didn't have, didn't function or have to deal with some of the stresses of a modern life in a large place, you know? And she still reads, and she still studies, and she still learns, and she still asks questions in rituals. And she may be one of the -- she's definitely one of the most knowledgeable people, you know, functionally, in terms of ritual competence, that I know. And so it just tells me, this is a learning path, we're on this path for life.  ANDREW: Yeah, I think it's, I think that it's really a significant point, right? I think that a lot of people have a notion about spirituality, whether it's this path or another path, and I know when I was younger I had this notion, that we will at some point arrive. T-D: Right.  ANDREW: At some point we will get there, and we will be, we will know the things, we'll stop having questions ... T-D: Right. ANDREW: We'll stop whatever, right? And, you know, I mean, I look at the elders that I know, and they're always still asking questions, right?  T-D: Right.  ANDREW: And it's one of those things that the more I learn about these traditions, and even in my Western mystery stuff, even though I decided to walk away from that path ... T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: I could see how much more there was to learn, and that it was infinite, right?  T-D: Right.  ANDREW: And I think that it's really important to cultivate that sort of curiosity and engagement, right? T-D: Absolutely. ANDREW: I also think it's interesting, cause you brought up, and I want to kind of talk about this for a bit, before we lose it in the flow of the conversation -- T-D: Okay. ANDREW: That distinction between like Espiritismo, and muertos, like spirits of the dead, right?  T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: And, you know, what we would call, what more people might call spirit guides ... T-D: Right.  ANDREW: You know, guardian angels?  T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: You know, in the sense of like, some spirit that looks over us, and, what do you see as the role of those spirits in your life or in people's lives in general? Because I often see people conflate them with Orisha or with other things, and I'm curious. T-D: Right. And it's -- it's easy to do, especially when we are in a tradition where many of us, and most of our elders even, will use the word egun for everything, right? Anything that's dead is egun. ANDREW: Right.  T-D: So, even if they're talking about spirit guides, which we would say muertos, or guías, or protectores, or even ... ANDREW: Ada Orun. T-D: Right, Ada Orun, or even Ada Orun, it's easy to flip that tongue. ANDREW: Yeah. T-D: But yeah. Or even where they, some people talk about -- sorry -- even they use the word egun, people who are practitioners of Palo. So it just kind of gets thrown across the board. So it's -- I think it's important for us to be able to kind of designate or understand the differences, so we don't have this kind of totally crucado kind of crossed up situation, but I think that they are important. I think that a lot of that kind of -- I don't want to call it confusion, but kind of mixed up language, comes from the fact that we are ... Our religious practices and our spiritual practices descend from multiple ethnic groups of people that intermixed together in one geographic location, and so we have people practicing multiple spiritual traditions, you know, again, there's a creolization, it's not just strictly this Yoruba thing, because this is not just a Yoruba religion any more, in terms of the ethnic group. And it hasn't -- it hadn't been that way in a long time in Cuba or Brazil either. And now even more so, it is not, because we've got this kind of universal religion now, where people of different races and ethnic groups and backgrounds are practicing these religions, so. Excuse me. But back to your actual question was, I think that spirit guides have a very important place, I think Espiritismo has an important place in the overall practice of Afro-Cuban religion, because I believe that it fills in some gaps that were missing, and this is one school of thought. There are many schools of thought; there are others who will disagree. And I don't necessarily think -- I don't think it's filling in gaps that have to do with egun or ancestral practices, the more I learn about traditional Yoruba religion and the more that I study and read about that, it seems almost like Espiritismo tape kind of fills in some gaps that are missing with Egbe worship, that did not transfer to the New World. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: And so, oftentimes you'll hear Yoruba scholars describe Egbe as Yoruba Spiritism.  ANDREW: Yeah. T-D: Because Egbe is not an Orisha, and it's not one entity, it's like a group of entities that exist in the spiritual realm, and so the more I read of that and learn of that, I see, or I believe, I'm led to believe, that perhaps this filled in a bit of a gap where that was concerned. But I think for all of us, I mean, I come from a house where a lot of Espiritismo is practiced. My elders are espiritistas. I was married to a Palero and espiritista, and I just see how it functions in the life. Once people become developed, it can just help you in so many ways, just in so many little practical ways. But it is a separate practice from Orisha.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: And so I think what often happens is, people who are outside of the religion, who do not have elders, are being led by spirit guides to do things, and they believe that they are interacting with Orisha. And, I just don't think that's the case. So all these girls that you see on Instagram and other forms of social media building these empty altars, altar tables, or they're calling them shrines, that don't have any Orisha in them with all kinds of pretty little knick-knacks and afefedes and mirrors and compacts and things -- those are likely -- I believe the impetus for that is a spirit guide that's pushing them to do that. But they just think it's Ochún. Or they think it's Yamaya. And so they've set up their altar, you know. That's what they really believe, and I think that push is so strong coming from those guides that it's pushing them to do something and they are doing something. And these dreams that they have that they're ... ANDREW: Mmm. T-D: You know, that they may be misinterpreting cause they don't have elders to guide them.  ANDREW: Well, and I think that there's an important sort of magical concept at play that people lose track of, or they don't like it.  T-D: Okay. Mmmhmm. ANDREW: Which is, when spirit speaks to us, right? They can only speak to us through our conscious and our unconscious, right? And so that communication is very easily flavored. Right?  T-D: Okay. [nodding] ANDREW: By our ideas, by our hopes, by our aesthetics ... T-D: Right. ANDREW: By our concepts. And this ... The capacity to differentiate between different kinds of spirits or, you know, whatever, right?  T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: I think is very difficult. And if a spirit shows up and wants to help you, and you're like, "Please be Ochún, please be Ochún, please be Ochún," and it's ... It's kind of in that neighborhood, you know?  T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: Like, overlaps with that energy, of course that communication is going to get covered with that, right?  T-D: Right.  ANDREW: You know, it's gonna, it's gonna get clothed in those symbols and ideas, right?  T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: You know? And I think that it's really interesting to sort of try and understand how those communications and how those things happen, right?  T-D: It does. ANDREW: And I think sometimes it's an ego piece. Sometimes it's an unconscious piece. Sometimes it's ... You know, sometimes it comes from the spirit too, right?  T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: You know? But I think that it's really important for people who are exploring in directions like this to, you know, to try and be clear about it and to, you know, if you're looking to go in those directions, you know, considering looking for more traditional verification, you know?  T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: Because that's gonna be way more fruitful over time. T-D: Yeah. ANDREW: You know? Because the challenge that I've noticed with a lot of people is, they get pulled into something and into working in a direction, and then they don't know where to go, and the spirit can't guide them further, and so then they get stuck and their life becomes, you know, not what they hoped it would be.  T-D: Right.  ANDREW: Or they have problems, and not because the spirit's necessarily making them, but because it can't take them anywhere else ... T-D: Right.  ANDREW: And then, and then they become disenfranchised, or bitter, or they get deeper issues kind of emerging from that, right?  T-D: Yeah. An important factor, I think, is [sigh]. I don't want to throw this all on millennials this or millennials that.  ANDREW: Uh huh. T-D: But, you know, different age cohorts do have some tendencies and so we may see a lot of this with millennials not wanting to, you know, follow the rules, or have guides, or submit themselves to elders, or this kind of thing, but I think it's important to just kind of lay it out on the line, that, number one, one factor that isn't necessarily specific to millennials, is that you have people who are kind of -- they may be rejecting, or seeking something outside of the Abrahamic traditions, and so when they find other religions or Afro-Caribbean spirituality, they may be operating under the misconception that because there's not a church per se, that these are not structured religions that have orthodoxy. ANDREW: Right.  T-D: And so that can create conflict and a lot of problems. Because these are very structured religions. There is orthodoxy. They are hierarchical religions. They are oral traditions, largely, even though now we have more learning resources that are not ... ANDREW: I think that that is actually, you know, I mean, I'm, I don't know about the millennialness of it ... T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: I mean, you know, I think that the issues ... Every generation has their own ideas, right?  T-D: Right. ANDREW: But I certainly think that being ... Everybody in this day and age who has access to the Internet, right? has ideas.  T-D: Mmmhmm, mmmhmm. ANDREW: And the amount of people who show up in my orbit who have sort of notions that they've picked up from somewhere that are really quite not traditional, you know? I think it's because of this flood of information ... T-D: There is. ANDREW: And people want it, and so much of it is ... It's kind of half-baked, you know?  T-D: It is. There's a lot of incorrect. I mean there are people ... You can go on YouTube and there are people who have tens of thousands of followers who are not giving accurate information. Or who are giving information or who have a perception or what they're voicing is really not orthodox or traditional at all. And so then when someone comes in contact with people who are part of the community and they encounter that orthodoxy, it might throw them off.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: Or even put them off. You know?  ANDREW: Right. T-D: Which I think is unfortunate. But I think, you know, there are some aspects of the religion that you can access, just in terms of historical facts, you know? This started out, you know, as an imperial religion that was a part of a culture that believed in the divine right of kings and that the kings are direct descendants of Orisha ... ANDREW: Sure.  T-D: And, you know, us, we're, our practice comes largely from the Oyo empire, and so there's lots of structure and strictures and all that kind of thing that exists. It's not just this free-flowing kind of whatever you feel type of thing. And so, I think it's important for people to kind of at least try to learn a little bit about the historical stuff. Just take bites of it, you know?  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: Cause that will kind of put you in a better place, really, than just watching lots of YouTube videos ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: And things like that.  ANDREW: I also think it's interesting because I think that a lot of people who I run into who come into the tradition or are considering coming into the tradition, right, or are coming for a reading or something ... T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: I feel like a lot of them don't know what to do with the reading that they get, right?  T-D: Mmmhmm, got it. ANDREW: Someone shows up and they get a reading, and they come in a sign, and it comes out that everything's firm and solid and good, you know?  T-D: [laughs] Mmm. ANDREW: And then the reader's like, "Well, the Orishas love you, hugs and kisses, see you later," and they're like, "What do you mean?" T-D: Wow. ANDREW: "What do you mean?" Right? "What do you mean?"  T-D: Right. That's problematic too, obviously.  ANDREW: Right?  T-D: Because those Odos, those divination pattern, which we call Odu, have inherent messages in them. ANDREW: Sure. T-D: And some of them admonish the diviner to speak the more -- I don't want to say negative, but negative side of the pattern, and to give warnings, and --it's a message -- ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: That they're kind of -- As a priest, you know, we have Ita, which are a number of life divinations, but it's the same concept as a road map. One may be temporary while the other may be permanent ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: But it's still a road map for you to follow for your life, and so even if it's just dealing with a specific point in time and a specific situation, I think, you know, obviously, a lot of people are performing readings [sigh] who just are not conscientious ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: About the work that they're doing.  ANDREW: Right. T-D: It's not just about marking an ebbó or an offering or a sacrifice that you can then charge the person for you to perform. You're really -- It's a connection, right? Between the Ori of the person who's come to receive the reading and the diviner connecting with Elegua, and giving them this message that they require, and so I think that is really important in terms of fully exploring and investigating the message of the Odu that's fallen, and taking the time with someone who is not in the religion. You know? When someone comes for a first reading, it's really important to explain to them what that's going to involve, and what it means, and what to expect, on top of what the actual message is going to be.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: Because as we know, it's easier to lose the blessings that are being foretold than it is to convert negativity that's being expected into blessings. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: You know, so, it's a highly responsible task to perform a reading for someone, whether it's a Diloggún reading or a spiritual reading. It's a highly responsible task and the person who's performing that reading needs to take it seriously and they need to convey that level of seriousness and sacredness to the person who's coming to receive the reading. It's not a game or a parlor trick. It's a connection with ... to the divine. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. Yeah. And it's also not ... although it has the appearance of fortunetelling sometimes ... T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: Like, "hey, watch for this thing ..." T-D: Right. [nodding] ANDREW: It's also not fortunetelling, right?  T-D: And the diviner needs to make that clear, also. You know, that this is not fortunetelling.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. And it's also ... The advice about what you don't do is SO important and ... T-D: It really is. ANDREW: Or maybe more important than what you do ... I mean … They're both important, right?  T-D: Right. ANDREW: And this notion of the way in which taboos are handed out, right?  T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: "Don't do this thing, don't do that thing." I think is something that is also very complicated for people sometimes.  T-D: It is.  ANDREW: Especially because sometimes those connections are super obvious, right?  T-D: Right.  ANDREW: Like, you came in a sign that says your head's not very clear, don't drink. Right?  T-D: Right.  ANDREW: Eh, it's easy to understand, right?  T-D: Right. ANDREW: But some of the other connections are less clear, right?  T-D: Right.  ANDREW: And ... and yet ... they still need to be abided with, and that's sort of ... T-D: Right. And so maybe the diviner could help that person ... you know, kind of give them some insights into it. You may not hit on the exact thing, that that taboo or prohibition pertains to for that person, but it gets them thinking along those lines. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: You know. Don't eat this thing. You know, maybe that thing would make you sick, or maybe when you go to have it, you're going to be at someone's house and it's not going to be well-prepared ... ANDREW: Right. T-D: Or maybe you'll need to make that as an offering one day and it'll save you so it's more of a medicine.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: You've got to kind of open the way that person perceives that prohibition. So that they can think about it differently than just, "I can't have that thing."  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: You know. ANDREW: People don't like to be told they can't have things.  T-D: Right. None of us like that, you know? [laughs] ANDREW: So, every time you sit on the mat, be like, "Please don't take away something I like."  T-D: Don't take away. Any time you receive another Orisha with any ties, like "oh, don't tell me I can't have this thing." ANDREW: Exactly.  T-D: But you know that it's important to observe those taboos because you've chosen this path as your life path ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: But someone who's just going to receive a reading may not understand that, you know, for the next 30 days, or depending on, you know, how you were taught, the next however long amount of time, while this Odu, while the energy of this divination pattern is around you, you need to, you know, refrain from doing this thing or that thing or engaging in this or that or eating this or that.  ANDREW: Yeah. For sure. So, I'm going to switch topics a little bit here ... T-D: Okay. ANDREW: Kind of, kind of but not ... T-D: Uh oh! [laughs] ANDREW: So, we've been talking about aché, right?  T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: And, one of the things that I've found fascinating was watching the way in which you described your process around making these new baths that you're offering. Right?  T-D: Okay. Yes.  ANDREW: You know? And, I mean, can you talk about it, because I think that the commitments to putting your energy into it, and the hands-on-ness of it, I think is fascinating to me, and so I'd love you to share some of that for people to understand.  T-D: Oh my goodness. So, I think it's -- There's obviously a little -- This is an unorthodox type of bath, the first bath that I'm offering as an Ochún bath. It's unorthodox in the sense that most people here in the States who practice the religion perceive Orisha herbs as just the herbs we use to consecrate heads and consecrate Orisha. And they're always fresh herbs that we work with. And the herbs that we use for spiritual baths -- Obviously people in Florida and other places, they may use fresh herbs. But in the Afro-Cuban practice, there are some herbs that get boiled. Plenty of herbs are dried, it's fairly common. It's very common for Paleros to work with dry herbs. And so, I'm using -- I'm making a dried herbal product. I'm growing most of the herbs myself. I'm washing them and drying them and confecting the baths with them. And because I'm a one woman show and I'm just starting to do this, I'm labeling all of my tea tins myself by hand, and some of the labels I kind of make, they're not really labels, I wanted it to look a certain way, and I wanted it to have kind of a vintage apothecary look, and I wanted there to be some texture. So I ended up doing a lot more kind of physical hands on -- ANDREW: Cause-- T-D: Crafting, then I had originally thought. ANDREW: You've skipped over a little bit, though, right?  T-D: I skipped over a lot! ANDREW: You're growing the herbs -- T-D: [laughing] Yes. ANDREW: And then you're picking them -- T-D: Right. ANDREW: And then you're hand washing them all, right?  T-D: Yes, and I'm drying them. ANDREW: And then you're hand drying them -- T-D: Right. ANDREW: So that they can them be properly dried -- T-D: Right. ANDREW: And cured. T-D: Right. Cause I want them to be properly dried and cured.  ANDREW: And not like moldy and disgusting, right?  T-D: Right. I didn't want them to be moldy or disgusting, and yes, I live in southern California where it's pretty dry, so it's not like I have a big issue with anything getting moldy or disgusting. ANDREW: Yeah. T-D: And I have some nice drying racks that I hang that are like the ones that people might use for tea or other herbs. And in terms of the confection of the baths, it's kind of an unorthodox thing cause there's a lot of praying and singing and not the same exact kind of ora that would go on to make omearo, but some of that, you know, a good little bit of that. There's not divining going on but there was some divining going on in terms of what my ingredients would be for the bath -- ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: And there was consulting with my own elders about that. So -- And I do have some really good teachers. As I've mentioned, my mother in law, my madrina, I also work with my Olua here in Los Angeles who is actually a sustainable gardening specialist, and my other Olua teacher, Luis Marín who lives in Maryland who is an expert herbalist, and he practices achéche, traditional Yoruba Ifa but he's initiated to Elegua in the Lucumí system. So I do have some really knowledgeable teachers to confer with. But in terms of the actual process of it, yes, I'm [laughing] -- you know, I'm making it the way that I would make a bath for someone who came to me to make a bath for them. So, and I sing when I work. I sing when I do a limpieza or, you know, spiritually clean the house. And this is an Ochún bath, so I sing Ochún songs and I sing Osayin songs.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. And -- T-D: And I open my work, I actually stand in front of my shrine and I ring my Ochún bell and I recite oríkì and I pray to her before I start my work, and then when I'm finished making the batch of the bath, and I do small batches, when I'm finished I go back and I pray to her and I sing, and I recite oríkì and prayer and once it's done I light a candle and I sing some more -- ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: And I leave it there at the foot of my Ochún. ANDREW: Yeah. T-D: And sometimes I put my Ochún sopera on top of it! [laughs] ANDREW: [laughs] Just put a little extra of that energy in there! T-D: Yes!  ANDREW: Fire it up a little further?  T-D: I do. ANDREW: Yeah. T-D: I do, and so, and I want to say, you know, this concept of kind of making magical things, you know, I feel, obviously that the power is inherent in the herbs that I'm working with and inherent in the Orishas and I just have an unwavering faith in that.  ANDREW: Mmm. T-D: So, and I have an unwavering faith in my elders and in my lineage and that they put Ochún in my head and they did it properly and they've taught me, and I've conferred with them and that I'm doing this properly, and I do it with a lot of love, honestly. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: A lot of love, and heart, and I say a lot of prayers for -- I'm so emotional, you have to forgive me -- for the people who would use this bath, you know, I pray for them, that they should have good health and that they should have happiness and love in their lives and that they should love themselves and accept themselves, and that they should have prosperity and that goodness should flow to them and to their lives. And so I do a lot of that because that's what I know and that's what I've seen when rituals are performed for me, people pray for me, people pray for my children, and so I pray for the benefit of anyone who would touch anything that I put my hands on, you know.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. Yeah. And I think that, to me, there's that, what I hear and see and what you're talking about is this sort of both the depth of experience, the history of the tradition, right?  T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: And that sort of connection to aché and to lineage, right? And I think that, you know, it's -- it goes even beyond just some of those things, right, because it's also your aché, right?  T-D: Right. ANDREW: Like you can accomplish these things partly because it's in you from your destiny to do so as well, right?  T-D: Right. ANDREW: Like not everybody is meant to be an Ochunista or, you know, an herbalist, or whatever, right?  T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: We all have different graces and strengths, and I think that that capacity and attention is so wonderful, right? And, you know, how many, if you count the growing of the plants, how long is it from start to finish before one of these comes out in a tin, right? It's a long time. T-D: It's a long time, it is. And I think that from the beginning, my godmother did always kind of try to motivate me to learn about the plants -- ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: And I said, "oh, it's just too much, it's overwhelming, ah," you know, I like to make the baths, I'll use this, what I know, I'll use that ... But as, over time, you know, little by little, you look, and you have more and more plants, and then I married a guy who was a Palero, so there were more and more plants.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: So you just learn, you don't take it all in one big bite, or one big gulp. ANDREW: Right. T-D: There's no way you can do it! And I don't know the Oju this is associated with, it's “bit by bit we eat the head of the rat,” you know ... ANDREW: Right. T-D: It's this idea, the head of the rat has very little sharp bones in it. And so if you're gonna eat that meat, which is a delicacy, right, for our ancestors, our spiritual ancestors, you have to eat it very very carefully. And so, it's a very slow and kind of careful process. And I don't perceive myself as being particularly knowledgeable. I perceive myself honestly as a rank and file Olorisha and I've been very fortunate and blessed to have some really knowledgeable elders who have shared with me and I will spend the rest of my life learning more about herbs and growing herbs and continuing to take classes, continuing to ask questions of other people older than me and younger than me. And maybe one day, you know, 30 years from now, I'll be an Oceanista ... ANDREW: Uh huh. T-D: But, you know, this project, if you will, is just an incredible, an extraordinary opportunity for me, and I love it, and [shrugs], that's all I can say, I love it, and I wish I had begun with more gusto 20 years ago and not felt ... not allowed it to make me feel so overwhelmed. And I also find it interesting that I've received lots of comments and feedback, you know, from elders who are espiritistas, who say "Oh, al fin tu estás haciendo trabajo de tu muerta principal," like, you know, "finally you're doing this work that, you know, that your primary muerta's been trying to get you to do for years and years." And, you know, I have been told of her, and I knew of her, but I didn't really understand that she was an herbalist. I saw her working over a pot, you know, a caldero, kind of bent over, sitting down, and her hands are moving. You know? And I would say that. And my madrino was like, "What did you think she was doing?" [laughs] "What did you think she was working on over that pot?"  ANDREW: [laughing] Yeah. T-D: You know, she was working with barks, and bottles, and ojas, and herbs, and leaves, and stuff, you know. ANDREW: Yeah. T-D: But it's a process and I think it comes to us when we're ready. When we're ready for it and open to it.  ANDREW: Yeah. T-D: And sometimes it has come to us little by little over time and we didn't even realize it and then we looked up and said, "Wow! Where did all these doggone plants come from?" ANDREW: Exactly, right? Yeah. Yeah. I think that -- I think that that idea of -- Back to this question about guides and spirits that walk with us, you know?  T-D: Yes!  ANDREW: I mean, I think that figuring out how to live with that, and work with them, I think is so important, you know?  T-D: It's essential but it is so hard for some of us. ANDREW: Yeah. T-D: And I'm gonna tell you this, my background, I'm an African American, my family is from New Orleans, so saints and Catholicism and all that was not foreign to me, but many African American people or others who have or Anglo Americans or others who come from a Protestant background, it seems very Catholic to them, and not only that, but it seems very Christian to those who may be looking for something outside of Christianity. And so, until people dig a little bit deeper and really understand about Espiritismo and that they're different and also different ways of working with these spirits, that's when you kind of get that depth or get that connection that, you know, this is something that's really important to me, and when you are surrounded by, or find yourself in the company of people who are really developed spiritually, and how it helps their lives and how it can help your life ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: That's when you start to see the importance of that. And when you -- or the importance just of being able to distinguish between your own fears, or your own ego, and messages that are being sent to you from your guides, you know -- ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: Is hard. And I can say, I lost my husband almost six years ago to cancer. I have struggled financially with two young children, living in a city where the schools were great when I was a child but aren't so great now and have to pay tuition for my kids and stuff like that, and make choices that I didn't think I'd have to make because I didn't think I'd be alone. You know, there's a big difference between two incomes and one income.  ANDREW: Yes. T-D: And I will give the credit 100 percent to my muertos, my spirit guides, my protectors, and my ancestors that even gave me the idea to sell these baths or make them available to the public, something that I love to do -- ANDREW: Sure.  T-D: And that I have been doing for years, and it never occurred to me, and I have been told, Andrew, so many times, you know, "You're going to have a business, you're going to do well at a business one day." Well, I'm not there doing well yet, you know, I'm just starting, but my parents were small business owners -- ANDREW: Yeah.  T-D: And I just never -- and we had a very comfortable life, but I just -- the only thing I was really good at was food things, and food businesses are very expensive and rigorous and require a tremendous amount of capital -- ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: And I just couldn't see that. And so when this idea came to me -- This idea didn't come to me! The idea was given to me. It was a blessing that was given to me. And that just blows me away.  ANDREW: Well, you know, from a certain perspective, right?  T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: So, I started working as a card reader, 15, almost 16 years ago.  T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: You know, I quit my job in advertising and started ... T-D: Wow! ANDREW: Reading cards for a living, right?  T-D: Okay. ANDREW: And I decided that I wanted to make a product.  T-D: Mmmhmm, mmmhmm. ANDREW: And so I started making herbal baths. And this line of baths that I make now.  T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: And, you know, I got them in some stores around town, and I did some things with it, and in some ways, that starting point is the starting point of the whole store I have now, where I have a full store now, right?  T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: So, you know, and it comes from that listening in, and leaning in, and being like, "All right, spirits, I can do these things. Oh yeah, I can work on that," and, you know... T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: What comes from that listening, in my experience, especially if we're faithful to it, right? Over time-- T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: Is everything, everything comes from there, right?  T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: And I think about, when I show up at the shop, or tonight's Saturday and we're recording and I'm gonna lock up later and go home -- T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: I always lock up everything and sit here and check in with all my guides and my spirits and I thank them for this, and I thank the Orishas when I pray to them every day, because all of this comes from their guidance and their influence, and my work, but -- T-D: And it's a blessing. It's a degree of freedom for your family.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: And when I was a young person, a teenager, I just saw the work, you know, my parents did. And they had multiple small business endeavors, and they were successful, but there was a lot of work.  ANDREW: Sure. T-D: But working for yourself, there's just a degree of freedom, a space for personal expression and creativity, independence -- ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: That you'll never find in corporate America or corporate Canada or in the West, you know ... ANDREW: Corporate anything, right?  T-D: Anywhere, you're just not gonna find that.  ANDREW: It's just corporate Earth now. Isn't that the deal?  T-D: Right. That's what it is, right, globalization. But I just, if I could develop this in time, you know, in a few years or whatever, into something that I could do full time and have a small shop and grow some herbs on the roof, or in the back, or whatever, that is my ultimate goal, and to be able to kind of be there for my kids, and they can come into the shop and go in the back and do their homework and help me carry stuff or whatever ... ANDREW: Yeah. T-D: That's a beautiful way of life, because it allows you to engage in something that you value and something that you can share with the community, that you can share with others, and it allows you to continue to grow -- ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: As a priest, and to grow in your spiritual practice and your knowledge and ultimately, you'll be able to pass that on to other people as well. So yes, definitely, you know, you're someone who I see as a shining example, you know, honestly. ANDREW: Well. Thank you. Well. So, let's see if people want to go and check out your stuff, they should know where to find you.  T-D: Oh, yes!  ANDREW: Where are you hiding out on the web there, T-D?  T-D: So, I have a website, it's https://www.spiritualbathtea.com, and you can order the bath there. It's an Ochún bath for love and prosperity. It has a lot of beautiful things in it. And Andrew, I'll send you one, I know that you're a master bath maker but I'm gonna send you my bath, because it's just like wine, maybe you have your vineyard and I have my vineyard ... ANDREW: Oh yeah, for sure.  T-D: You know, but we can enjoy each other's products of one another's labors ... ANDREW: Absolutely. T-D: And I'll definitely be sending you a bath.  ANDREW: Super. I can't wait!  T-D: But yes, it's got at least five of Ochún's herbs in it, it has more, and it's got some other really nice elements in it that ... it's got three different types of sandalwood in it, it smells really lovely, and it's a really beautiful bath and I've received a lot of really positive feedback about the bath from users, and I love making it and I put a lot of love and care into it. And it definitely gives a new meaning, and you know, the word art, or the word crafts, these have many different meanings, and what were the meanings, the original meanings, of, you know, these things.  ANDREW: Well, you know what, the really funny thing is, you're kind of actually doing what the millennials are doing. T-D: I am?  ANDREW: You are, cause I mean, what I see a lot in sort of the millennial culture, things that people see about that, is this return to hand crafted, to small batch, to stuff made with love, right?  T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: So you see these sort of various things, food wise, and you know, clothing wise and otherwise ... T-D: Right. ANDREW: That, they're not corporate, they're not mass-produced.  T-D: Right. ANDREW: They come from people who have learned how to, you know, hand do things -- T-D: Right. ANDREW: In traditional ways or new ways. T-D: And this will never be mass-produced, ever. ANDREW: Yeah. T-D: It's just not that -- that's not my concept, it's not that kind of thing. So if I wake up tomorrow and you know, Amara la Negra or Beyoncé put me on their, you know, social media, there'll just be a back log, but the order will get filled, but you know, I might buy a couple of those labeling machines, to label my tins, [laughing] or you know, like I said, my dream is to be able to afford to buy 10,000 from China of those fancy tea tins that are already embossed and printed, but the bath is, it's always going to be something that is beautiful, that I'm going to put as much beauty and love and care into as I possibly can, and that my own hands have touched, because that's it, you know, that's where the magic is -- ANDREW: Yeah. T-D: It's multi-- it's multifaceted, right? It's got these different components. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: And so, you've got your spiritual license, your ritual license, your learning competencies, but it's also what you put into that thing, you know?  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: There are lots of people who are well-trained, who are very knowledgeable, and who are duly ordained, who just throw some shit together.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: All day long. And I will never ever do that. Cause that's got a lot to do with personal integrity and accountability to Orisha, too! Why -- I mean, I'm going to try to make the most beautiful thing that I can if it has Ochún's name on it. And when I do my Obatala bath, it's gonna be the most incredible excellent thing that I could ever imagine. ANDREW: Yeah. Because I love Obatala, and he loves me, because he gave me a wonderful husband. You know, I just am always going to do the very best that I can.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: And to try to make something, and plus we want to please people, right? We want people to feel that their money is well spent and that their effort in acquiring the thing is well spent.  ANDREW: Right. T-D: And is special to them.  ANDREW: Yeah. And I know for myself, whenever I'm in a position to represent the religion in one way or another, I feel a lot of pressure.  T-D: Absolutely!  ANDREW: Right? To get it right. T-D: Absolutely! ANDREW: I made an Orisha tarot deck, which is coming out in the fall through a major publisher, right?  T-D: Oh, wow! Okay. ANDREW: And-- through Llewellyn, it'll be out in September. T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: And, it took me a long time to make it because I constantly felt this pressure, from me, right?  T-D: Yeah, it's from you, it's just like any overachiever ... ANDREW: Right?  T-D: You're not competing with other kids, you're competing with yourself. [laughing] ANDREW: There's nobody else, it's just me and the art, or you and the bath, or whatever. T-D: Right!  ANDREW: Yeah, no, it's fantastic. T-D: That's definitely what it is. I definitely put my best into it. And I hope that that shines through and that people will see that and just to add one more thing, you know, it's really important, this idea that we have, of that license [sighs]. I just can't really say enough about that, I kind of get emotional about it. You can't create an Orisha bath if you don't have Orishas. ANDREW: Mmm. T-D: You know? And they're certain herbs that belong to Orishas, and all the herbs belong to Osane, but if you don't have the ritual license to work with those entities, how are you creating a bath? How are you creating a ritual? You can certainly do a spiritual bath, you know, working with your spirit guides, and working with your muertos, your protectors and guides, but working with Orisha requires Orisha. Requires consecrated Orisha.  ANDREW: Yeah.  T-D: So.  ANDREW: For sure. T-D: Don't just throw some oranges and some -- ANDREW: [laughing] Cinnamon -- T-D: Yellow flowers and some honey and cinnamon in the bathtub and say that you're doing a bath with Ochún cause Ochún is not there in that bath with you. ANDREW: Yeah.  T-D: [laughing] Not to be snarky! ANDREW: No, I think, I think it's important conversations, right? And I think that one of the reasons why it's my intention to have you and David Sosa and, you know, other traditional practitioners on, is I think that it's really important to have a dialogue about what tradition actually has to offer, right? And I think that it's a thing that's hard to understand, it's a thing that is not obvious in sort of the more modern world ... T-D: Right. ANDREW: And it's not obvious if you didn't grow up in a magical tradition or in a magical, you know, I mean, I had the great fortune to not be raised with any religion ... T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: And I discovered Western mystery tradition stuff, and Western esotericism when I was like, 11 and 12, right.  T-D: Mmmhmm, Mmmhmm. ANDREW: So I grew up self-educating myself in a magical approach to the world. T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: And I think that's what has allowed me to step into it and into the Orisha tradition so well, is that the only traditions I've ever known have been magical. And spiritual in this way. And -- T-D: Yeah. ANDREW: And were also initiatory, right?  T-D: Mmmhmm, mmmhmm. ANDREW: Right? You know? They're all pieces that I understood from the beginning, kind of coming into this, right?  T-D: Right. ANDREW: I think it's important. T-D: And, it's very important. It's foreign to a lot of people, and, you know, it's important to say, you know, Orisha worship is not a self-initiatory system, it's a communal system, that has an intact priesthood, it has existed for many generations, for thousands of years if you go all the way back -- ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: And it's an ancient religious system that has an orthodoxy and a priesthood and a specific path that one follows and that's very important. And that you cannot, even though the world changes, things change, things evolve, you can't fit Orisha into your own mold or -- ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: Or mold Orisha to fit your lifestyle, in that type of way. It's not that type -- it's a religion, it's a structured religious system. ANDREW: For sure. All right. Well now we've given everybody something to think about!  T-D: Yes. ANDREW: Thank you for making time -- T-D: Thank you! Thank you so much for having me, I really appreciate it, it was very kind of you and I appreciate your time.  ANDREW: Oh, it's my pleasure, thanks.  T-D: Thanks. 

Andrew Youderian is the founder of eCommerceFuel, a private community forum for six to eight figure eCommerce sites. After getting out of finance and buying and selling two eCommerce businesses, Andrew saw the need for a platform for the 7-figure eCommerce community. Looking for a space where this group of exceptional entrepreneurs could bounce ideas and information off one another, he started the website and has never looked back. In addition to the forum, eCommerceFuel holds a live annual event, publishes a yearly “state of the merchant” report, and now hosts a job board exclusively for the eCommerce domain. We spend this episode discussing the results of their 2018 state of the merchant eCommerce report. Episode Highlights: This year there were about 450 survey participants with an average store income of $2.3 million. Andrew shares the three big takeaways from the survey. Which niches are growing versus which are stagnant or shrinking, according to the survey. The fastest growing stores have a high component of Amazon revenue to them. A strategy that some bigger merchants are taking is to use Amazon as a way to help launch a brand, then taking the cash and momentum generated from Amazon to help build offline presence. We discuss top trends in shopping carts, email marketing, help-desks, and product reviews. We learn that eCommerce revenue values seem to be generally going up across the board. Which business models are experiencing the most growth and why dropshipping may have made a bit of a comeback last year. What the fastest growing eCommerce categories are among the survey takers. Who the favorite entrepreneur was from last year from among the top in the world. Transcription: Mark: Hey Joe, how are you? Joe: I'm good Mark! How are you doing today? Mark: I'm doing good, I've been busy these past week doing a few interviews. Joe: You have? You have been slacking and then picking up that slack and doing it more yourself. Thank you! Mark: I think anybody who's been listening to our show knows that you're not a slacking on this, but I'm just trying to play catch-up here to your three(3) episodes to everyone that I have done. But, I've been catching up this week and I'm really excited about the someone guest that we have coming up weeks. And one of the first ones is Andrew Youderian, whom we both know well from E-commerce field. Joe: I do! You know I tell the story often. The first time I went to an E-Commerce field event was in Nashville, I think it's 3 or 4 years. but I remember saying specifically that when I got back, you know, I talked about it. I heard more intelligent E-Commerce conversation in 24 hours than I heard in previous 24 months. It's an exceptional group of entrepreneurs and they help each other on a regular basis which is incredible. Mark: Yeah, I think, there are couple of groups out there which I have zero hesitation endorsing and have told people that they need to be a part of it. If anyone listening is in E-Commerce, E-Commerce Fuels is a private form that requires that you apply in order to get access to it, you have to have a business of a certain size to be able to get in. Some of the most intelligent that we know in the space and the most successful people that we know on the space are members of that form. It's a really, really good community. They have an event that they put on every year which is one of our favorite events to go to, all the E-Commerce feel alive. So, one of the things Andrew does every year though, because he's got all his members, you know, several hundred members who have successfully E-Commerce stores, is he surveys them and he puts together a full on report called ‘State of E-Commerce' or ‘State of the Merchant'. Can't remember the exact name of it. But this entire interview, he and I are talking about this report because the data in here is awesome! It's really, really cool! You get to see how fast are businesses is growing. What percentage of businesses are Amazon. We get to sift through (2.55) revenue side. What is the typical breakdown by channel. And one of the cool businesses data in the report this year was what niches are growing versus what's shrinking. For example, one of the cool things that got pointed out when we talked about a little bit is, men's clothing and accessories was among one of the fastest growing sectors. Conversely, women's clothing and accessories was one of the ones that was stagnant or declining. So, we go into, what's going on there! Lots of really cool data in that report. Joe: Interesting! Interesting! Andrew is a super nice guy! Full of integrity and character in the whole E-Commerce Fuel Group is a reflection of him. I believe so, let's just jump to it, see what he's got to say! Mark: Absolutely! Hey Andrew! Thanks for joining me! Andrew: Yeah! Thanks for having me here in Mark appreciated. Mark: Alright, you are joining me from a van obviously. Andrew: Yeah, look like a total sketch fall hair. It's kind of a old Mobil office I have. I'm on the road with the family and when I need to do podcast or interviews or phone calls, I usually come out here coz it's little quieter. As you know, we got kids, it can be tough to do inside with kids and ah.. Yeah, so here we are! Mark: I love it! Yeah, you're not the first guest to actually show up in the vehicle. We had Chad Annis on a while ago and he was on his RV. He's been doing it for nine months, just living the RV life for nine months. But I know you're out there, just kind of traveling around and on a vacation, so to speak, with your family, right? Andrew: Yeah! We're just kind of doing, doing a little trip. We love to get out of Montana. You're from—you'll appreciate this. I mean you're from Minneapolis, you know the winters can be a little brutal up north. We're in Montana and trying to get out of town and get us some more climate, you know, 2-3 months, the winter and work along the way but trying to get a little more vitamin D in the body, so that's what we do. Mark: Yeah! Our winters been super long here, my wife has told me that if it's goes on for a few more weeks, were leaving, she doesn't know where, were just going to go. Not move, were just going to go somewhere. I'm going to come home and she's just going to say, “get in the car.” So, see this, you and I know each other from E-commerce feel but I'm going to let you introduce yourself to our listeners and kind of your background and what you do. Andrew: Sure! So my background is- I'm trying to get from the beginning as brief of a story as possible at my points. Got on a school, working finance for couple of years and kind of invest in making world and learned a lot, got a lot of great experience but decided that didn't want to sell my soul to the corporate world, so quit and was looking for an opportunity to start a business and only enough, got into E-commerce, started selling CV Radios. I ran that business for a number of years, kind of two years into that. Start a second business, selling trolling motors, knowing E-commerce space, drop shipping business and couple years after that I just found that I was meeting a lot of people doing similar things that I was and it's kind of interesting very isolated, entrepreneurs in the E-commerce space. You know it'd be really cool if there was a community for these group of people so, started, it was called E-Commerce fuel which ended up evolving into a community for a high six (6) and seven (7) and eight (8) figure E-Commerce store orders. So I've since sold both of those moving E-commerce businesses. Now, my primary fulltime gig is running that community which in the ways, I try to add value in our team choice. To add value is through light events which Mark you and Quiet light has been generous enough to sponsor and support so thank you. Through live events, through a private forum that we have, kind of curated [inaudible 0:06:11.1] forum of people with experience in space and then through some proprietary software's that we've built. So that's my story and what I do. Mark: Yeah, and for anyone that is not familiar with the E-commerce fuel and the forum they're associated with, really, really valuable. I don't anybody who's a member of that forum who doesn't consider to be one of their top resources. And the conference put up every year, it is phenomenal. We go to a lot of conferences, absolutely love E-commerce fuel. Here in the E-commerce space we have a store that's six (6), seven (7), eight (8) figures. I don't know where you are with your registrations or what you're doing for accepting your memberships but tough work in the resource. Andrew: Well, thank you. I appreciate it. Mark: Yeah. So every year, you do a survey of the members, performance survey of the members of your forum and it's the State of the Merchant Report. Tell me a little bit about that and how you put those report together and what it talks about. Andrew: Yeah, so, I wanted to try to get a sense of what was happening with Merchants and that sudden figure range, 'cause you–Forbes will put up reports about, you know, the fortune five hundred (500) and you hear these stats about your target in Amazon and that's interesting but it's a very different world when you're in that kind of size business that I was in, that our members are in. And so every year, I put it together like you mentioned and just– it's a survey of about 50 questions. This last year we had about four hundred and fifty (450) people respond. The average size of the store owners responding was about two point three (2.3) million and we put together a lot of stats. Everything from— We put together everything together from: where the people are from, and what type of businesses they have , conversion rates, revenue growth, how Amazon is impacting their business, all those kind of things. So, yeah, that's the kind of the survey in a nutshell and there's kind of three big take aways that I can go into or if there's something else you wanted to talk about first , we can do that too Mark. Mark: Yeah, so let's go onto the three big takeaways and for anyone looking at this, there's –this is freely available online, the ecommercefuel.com and we'll link to it in the show notes. And probably, I hope for a member, I'll link to them an e-mail that I'll send out people as well about this podcast, but lot's are really good data in here. So you do this every year, you pour over the data and you take a look at the– you know, what's important, what were the big takeaways for you these year? Andrew: Yes! So the big takeaways, let's say for the last 2018, really 2017 but published 2018 was this incredibly strong year for growth for kind of that seven (7) figure store owner demographic. Revenue, year over year, revenue was up, thirty eight (38) % and only about eleven (11) % of stores didn't see any growth at all, so like last year- you know it was in it's high twenty's (20's) or twenty five (25), twenty six (26), you look at E-commerce in general it tends to grow in a twenty (20), twenty two-ish percent range. But this year was just an incredible year, really strong growth. That was one. The second thing was, was that Amazon was a driver for a lot [inaudible 0:08:57]. This isn't surprising but it's you see, how much Amazon is contributing to merchant's revenue. So, last year, the year before this, Amazon was supposed to be responsible for about twenty (20) percent of overall revenue so let's say, you know- of a someone who's near a million dollars in sales for an average store. Two hundred thousand of that would've been generated from Amazon. This year was up to twenty-eight (28) percent so this year, two hundred and eighty (280) thousands of their million dollars in revenue was coming from Amazon. So Amazon's definitely making up a bigger portion of merchant's pie. Counterpart of that though is, Amazon also is generating more headaches and complaints for people so we looked at the number of people every year who say that- you know, we ask them what their biggest challenge and struggle in their business is, and this last year, the number of people who said Amazon is the biggest struggle or one of them was to almost 3X. And this wasn't just people complaining that Amazon was killing their business, saying that they were drop-shipper and “Oh no, all my sales are dying because Amazon was stealing them” that was only a small fraction. Probably, you know, twenty (20) percent of people complaining, thus majority of them were complaining about things like Amazon's being more competitive, I'm too reliant to, I'm tired of dealing with some of their terms of service and policies or things like that. So Amazon's more up to a greyer revenue but also there's also additional overhead burden with that. And finally, the last big takeaway was that conversion rates increase dramatically across the board for all sellers. The rates were up about twenty five (25) percent- you know, year over year. So, last year conversion rate on average was at 2.10 percent this last year it jumped up to 2.664 percent, right on that range. And, you know that was, probably the most surprising step for me for the whole survey because, it's difficult enough to bump up your conversion rate by twenty (25) percent across a single site but to see that across a group of twenty (20), four hundred and fifty (450) stores on average and I thought maybe, you know maybe what we were saying was that you can be seeing more people shift to manufacturing or product labeling which tends to have a much higher conversion rate than let's say drop-shipping. But I saw that conversion rate boost across all different store types from drop-shipping to just reselling, to manufacturing and so, hard for me to explain, I kind of hypothesize that perhaps our community is getting a little bigger and merchants are maybe getting a little more advanced; the economy and the US particularly has done well this last year. Whatever the reason something back there, those were probably the three biggest takeaways that I have to work for. Mark: Alright, so one thing that I've always found interesting about your report is the percentage of sales that Amazon takes from some of your largest stores. What are the data show–if you remember of hand, I don't know if you have the report in front of you, but what are the data show from your largest stores and how much they are actually getting from Amazon? Andrew: Let me see here if we actually calculated that this year, so I don't think we actually– Let's see, we have– we measured a couple things, we didn't get the actual revenue from, you know, what percentage of the revenue Amazon was generated by stores that had a lot on Amazon but we did measure was kind of revenue growth for different stores if they weren't selling on Amazon, if they were selling on Amazon, or were Amazon was sixty (60) percent of their revenue. So when you break it down that way, Amazon, you know, stores aren't selling on all on Amazon, they're growing in about thirty (30) percent. Stores they're selling a little bit on Amazon, you know some of them are growing in about forty one (41) percent and stores where Amazon is, you know, makes up to sixty (60) percent plus of their revenue, they're growing at fifty one (51) percent. So, you're definitely seeing the fastest growing source, definitely have a very high component of Amazon revenue to and the same thing too for income growth, it follows kind of lock step with the income that people are seeing as well. Mark: Right, now I'm just going to go through this here, one chart that I see is the Amazon dominance trance. Amazon as a source number channel, looks like you have twenty six (26) percent there? Andrew: Yep, so that's twenty six (26) percent of merchants listed Amazon as their number one channel up from twenty (20) percent last year. Mark: See, that number right there, actually is almost staring 'cause it seems like with the restore I see, it may have started flying with the website and then they move over to Amazon and Amazon took up all of the revenue. This is showing what seventy four (74) percent are still have other channel as their dominant channels or maybe they're just so diversified, What's the story behind that? Andrew: That's good question! I think it's a lot of our members are, I would say probably three quarters of them for whatever reason don't– are not a primarily–they have a very good presence off of Amazon as well and maybe, I don't know if that's just culture or part of it's to the [inaudible 0:13:20.7] silver screening and who we kind of bring in to the community but I think that might be more of–a bias of our community as to maybe just a general market thing 'cause you see, as you said, a lot of–it's probably under what you've expect to see. So I'm not exactly sure, I think part of that might just be a demographic work community report. Mark: I think it's fast– I think it's useful data, especially for people that have an E-commerce businesses who're think that they want to make Amazon their pear play. I've talked to a few business owners they've said wildly, “I'm going to focus my attention to-on Amazon because, it's for the money, yes, and why would I take away my other efforts from Amazon and make as much money.” But it appears as if you do have a number of stores that are doing that seven (7) and eight (8) figure revenue almost, without Amazon being that dominant channel. Andrew: yeah definitely and I think what a lot of the savvy merchants that I see in our community doing in any kind of floss and secret to Amazon is, it's hard to pass up free money and easy money and granted that Amazon's getting harder but still it's a pre-power form and conquering opportunity even in 2018. But their mindset much of the time is use Amazon as a way to help launch a brand, to help generate some cash flow and then use the momentum you can generate from Amazon, Use the cash you can generate from Amazon to help build your off Amazon, your own dot com, your own web store presence, because all fully that's the asset that you own and i's much less rescue than being be-haunt by Amazon going forward so I think that's a strategy a lot of us, as bigger merchants are taking. Mark: That's absolutely see as well with Amazon is that launch process tends to be. You want to be testing your products and been able to launch a brand so much faster because of the size of the market place. Let's talk real quick about software. You guys have a very cool part of your community where your community rates software that they're using and it's feedbacks. So you have like a star rating. If somebody wants to find like a good shopping card or what shopping card they should use, or maybe help desk software. You guys have a whole record of software within the community that rates that, right? Andrew: We do, yeah, and so part of it is the ratings like you mentioned another part of it, and maybe more telling is– is the usage stats. We have about a thousand members in our community and our software goes out and crawls all of our member's stores on a weekly basis and uses an integration we've built with to be able to tell what all of the members are using. So we can tell in a real time that “Oh, you know, forty four (44) percent of our members are on Shopify this year versus, you know thirty seven (37) percent last year.” Whatever it is. So we can get stats on what people are using but also people– our members who rate the software as well as, with essence, what's– you know, what people like. Mark: That's– that's pretty cool. So what software would you say is really– sum of the people should be paying attention to in 2018? What's really been growing quite a bit over the past year? Andrew: I'd say, you know, search shopping biggest one's and that's probably become as a surprise to people but Shopify just dominates in this area, you look at that thousand-ish area in our community and I think probably about forty (40)– Four hundred and twenty (420), four hundred and thirty (430) of them succumb, you know, over forty (40) percent close to forty five (45) percent use Shopify and the number of people we've seen switch to Shopify from Magento over the last two (2)- three (3) years is just unbelievable, they've done a really good job capturing that market shares. So, on a shopping card side, that's when I'd say, the other four well kind of three that we have within the– still the merchant E-mail marketing, Mailchimp is the number one. They've got two hundred and eighty two (282) out of our top one thousand and Clivio's to seventeen of our top one thousand. So both those are kind of the leaders there. Fairly close. Help desks, we've got Zendesk- is the top to use, sixty one (61) out of a thousand use them, but help scouts pretty close behind there and they get slightly better ratings. And I would be surprised if we didn't see a flip-flop of that seen help scout come on the top over the next year. And for product reviews, Shopify parse based on the facts that people use, Shopify is reviewed, built on reviews the system has most popularly used. YAGPO used to be that number one spot but they dropped to number three (3) this last year. Partially, they got great functionality but I think a lot of the kind of experience that I've heard from stores is just their pricing is getting quite a bit more expensive. And so you see, companies like Stem Dot ayo who offers similar functionality at a much lower price might come in, they'd jump up significantly this year up to the number two (2) spot. So, those were kind of the trends I'm seeing. For disclosure we've had the Claygo sponsor of our podcast. YAGPO use to sponsor us and Shoprite sponsored us in the past. Mark: Right so that might be infusive but I'd want to share something, cause I think you'll actually appreciate this. I'm working on a client right now and hopefully, let's say business here soon, tell me last time you heard this: He's on Yahoo! shopping card. Andrew: Well occasionally we get somebody on the forum saying “Hey, I'm on Yahoo! stores, should I migrate or how do I migrate.” It's always an entertaining thread to read. Yeah, that's– curious people laugh. Mark: When they told me that, It's like “Woah, I haven't heard that for at least like five or six years. It used to be the gold standard that everybody used. Andrew: Well, I think- I mean, if you look in the cell that's probably a decent positioning stand point for someone who's careful of migrations and reason. I'd still say “Hey!” but you know, I'm sure there's some incredibly converting Yahoo! store sites out there but you can probably modernize and probably get thick enough conversion, it's a rebrand, it's a nice value out of your– if you're going to buy this thing. Mark: Yeah, that's an interesting listing, which I'm sure a lot of people will be looking at once it comes out but yeah. So , let's talk a little bit about Magento and fact that there's– I seem I heard a little bit, my only foreign in E-commerce that I wrote a blog post on this years ago but it was kind of disaster for myself. My foreign in E-commerce side, what with Magento and– My goodness, I had so much trouble with it. What do you think the problem is with Magento. Are they just losing out at Shopify or are there problems that are kind of inherent at Shopify. Andrew. It's– I think it really depends year-use case. It's–Magento's incredibly powerful. They've got a decent eco-system for a lot of their extensions but it's just so complex. Like I've been on multiple shopping cards; Zencard, Shopify, Magento. And by far, the hardest one to customize was Magento. Even just changing layouts around on the homepage was a nightmare and I– so I think, I think the problem is, is that it's-it's very powerful but it's much more complex than your average store owners specially in the seven (7) figures is going to need. When you look at the benefit of having full customization verse's the benefit of ease of administration and up key maintenance Shopify or another Host solution just makes, just makes more sense. And I think that there, when you think about it, if you do actually need to have access to the code base to be able to fully customize your site which is definitely–there are definitely stores out there that would be able to create custom functionality, be able to put together custom integrations that you can, with maybe some hosting solutions if the IPI's would allow it. If you need a hundred percent customization there are other cards out there that maybe– a little lighter way or quite as heavy and resource intensive and hard to customize as Magento that are probably a better option for people on that seven (7) figure range. Mark: Yeah, alright, cool. I want to go to the first point that you brought up, and that is, that revenues are up across the board from a review that you've seen, which this is something that is seen across the board as well with the business that were selling right? The business that you're selling, the values just seem going up, up, and up. And I don't know if this is a maturation or the industry just businesses that have been around longer and now are a richer skill or– really what's behind it? You make a point in your report here about– where is it? That would be the margins, the cross margins seem to hold up as well. Can you come on a little bit on the margins that you're seeing on E-commerce. I think the margins here– seen: growth margin, average of 39.2 percent and that margins of 17.4 percent. What is the trend to start with bend with that and over the past few of these revenues growing that's all same level? Andrew: Yeah, So this is something that surprise me, with how much Amazon is growing and how, you know much it's supposed to talk about. Our margin bends this opportunity. You would expect that margins to come on with more pressure this year. What I found was that they didn't slide as much as I thought they would've. Tiny bit but not very much, like you mentioned, the growth margin was 39.2 percent I think last year was a little bit higher, like 39.7 or 8 percent so it sled like a tiny bit but not much and same on the net merchant this year it was 70.4. I think last year it was 70.8 or 9. So it came down a little bit but nearly as much as I was expecting to see and if you look at the margins of stores for selling primarily on their own platform versus that are primarily selling on Amazon. This might be interesting for people, the growth margin for people primarily signed on Amazon is thirty six (36) percent versus 40.4 percent selling by their own store. And neither I expect that because Amazon takes a fee and new work fees that pays on top for Veer store. But even when you count for all the fees and the advertising you get bend your own store versus Amazon. You're still going to set a better margin selling on your own stores 17.7 percent after all said and done versus Amazon which is 16.6 so that's kind of hell of margins broke down this year. Mark: That's fascinating! Something that I feel being of interest with a lot of buyers is this average growth by business model and the format. So obviously with E-commerce you have a lot of different ways that you can do E-commerce and I'll get buyers sometimes say “Men, I want to buy a business.” “What are you thinking of?” “E-commerce.” “What type of the E-commerce?” I don't know. Okay– You have to understand like, in E-commerce there's some significant differences. Drop shipping had growth of 32.7 percent recently 27.6. I'm actually a little surprised to see more growth in the drop shipping category than in reselling category. Andrew: I was too. I was very surprised to see that. And one of my guesses about why that was, just a guess but this last year, Shopify bought Oberlo, I believe it's that pronounced, the integrator with Ali Express. You kind of have seen a significant up taken in people using that drop shipping from China via AliExpress model this year or last eighteen (18) months and I wonder if that– part of that is a responsible fact 'cause looking back at last year's report, if I remember correctly, drop shipping was– had the lowest growth. I think our selling beat it out. So, I wonder if that is what potentially changed the tides on things. Mark: Yeah, possible. And in all fairness you list here the percentage of stores that are also have flatten beckoning revenues and drop shipping seems to be just kind of split right down the middle here. You have thirty three (33) percent, basically growing thirty three (33) percent that are flat or declining so they're also– although they're doing okay there is a number that are also in a hurting category. Andrew: Exactly! yeah, Exactly, about a third of drop shipping business is at either flat or in declines. So last year, again surprisingly it's–I was– seeing the numbers, having a drop shipping business myself, whether reasons I sold that business was because I saw they had wins with drop shipping, it's pretty much more difficult with Amazon and with some other forces and last year you stated, the merchant fifty (50) percent of drop shipping stores were either flat or declining. And that's come down significantly where you're only thirty three (33) percent or in that category now. So I think part of that is potentially or below, I think part of that is just an improved year. But when you look at the stores in the other categories in rough shape, either stalled out or shrinking, you'll see much smaller numbers. Any more from fifteen (15) to twenty (20) percent for all the other categories, reselling private label, manufacturing. So yeah, so definitely some stronger areas, I think still drop shipping– there is still drop shipping business I think that work well. It's just a much harder nut to crack and you really have to be able to have a good way to add value outside of the product because you're resetting commodities and come on in and sell this as well. So it's just trickier to get right at it. Mark: Right! And I think there are some industries back with the shoverey I had into E-commerce with doing gun safes. It's going to be not very realistic to the warehouse. Gun safe in most cases once you're doing very large volumes just because the shipping cost or so, so high regardless what you're doing. Andrew: Right. Mark: So there are some businesses that land themselves to that. I think it should be no surprise to anybody that private label and manufacturing seem to be the biggest winners with forty three (43) and forty two (42) percent on every forty three (43) percent both the categories were growing and only twenty one (21) of fifteen (15) percent of those categories respectively were shrinking. Andrew: just to clarify mark, that's– so for private label and manufacturing that's the actual revenue growth rate per year. So private label will be growing like forty three (43) percent and manufacturing growing in about forty two (42) percent per year. Mark: Okay! Good! Good clarification. Fastest growing category. Is this something that we could ask all the time or what businesses are hot now? Which should I be looking for a buyer or looking to buy something? At the top of your list pet supplies which isn't a huge surprise whenever we get a business that deals with pets. Oh men, I think just flies out the shelf when I get someone with inquiries on that. But I'm well surprised about food. Andrew: And I'll put on a disclaimer on here. We have forum of fifty people respond, you break down, let's say twenty (20) or thirty (30) categories. We do not have growth bust to this as I would love and I imagine that if we got– if we have five (5) thousand, I'm sure that this numbers might be a little bit different. Take this with a little bit of a aggression that if we didn't have–we had almost no data points, these are coming off to history businesses to come off you know. It's nine (9) or ten (10) or more businesses so-. But yeah food is on there and I've seen, and I told you, a handful of businesses doing well in the food space over the last year so, That was little surprising but yeah, definitely nonetheless. It was coming in about fifty six (56) percent year over year. And again another carry up for this is again our stores are in a small in a high six (6), seven (7) figure range a lot of them so, you probably want to see high gross rates here than you would, just across the board for any businesses but still strong show food. Mark: Yeah! and probably one of the most eyed- piece of data that I've seen in to support in again. I'm focusing a lot on this one category because I think it's going to be interesting for a lot of our buyers. Men's clothing, thumbs up! Women's clothing, not growing as fast. Such an interesting this really. Andrew: Yeah! I mean it's not even-it's a huge gap. Fifty three (53) percent, men's clothing and accessories versus twenty eight (28) percent in woman's clothing and accessories and I think it's– I think part of that is just you have– I mean woman's fashion, I think is more saturated, more– just traditionally. And I think you're starting to see more interesting kind of men's apparel come out. Specially direct to consumer, men's apparel and– yeah it's almost current twice as fast 'cause I just think there's more room than there is much competition. There's still, I mean your apparel, not an easy place to be in but men's versus women, I think men's probably much easier place to make money right now. Mark: Yeah, absolutely! So, last, put them in a do with the steadily commerce– clocking pretty quickly, I think this is probably the funniest question I've seen, anybody ask on survery about your favorite entrepreneur. How did you select these four entrepreneurs. And the four that you choose likely just set anyone, let's see: Ian Moss, Richard Branson, Mark Cuban, and Jeff Basels. Some of those makes sense, how did you slot those four? Andrew: Oh, I got to have Basels on the right 'cause he's the you know, king of E-commerce. The other, I was just trying to come up with, with four well-known billionaires, the idea of being cool, do you know what billionaire who you want to have lunch with and just top up of my head once that came to mind that were worth the billion dollars at least is Ian and kind of just came to me quickly was those four, kind of those than that. Mark: I'm actually surprised Ian Moss by large margins. Andrew: (laughs) You want to be the– Almost thirty (30) percent it was Richard Branson, second was twenty five (25), Cuban twenty three (23), and Basels. Surprisingly or maybe not so surprisingly given this is an E-commerce survey and– some people in here, a little help with the others as well, was Basels with 22.2 so– Mark: I'm not surprised at all. I was really hoping back think we are can you get to it this time, so maybe we can do it at future episode, I was really hoping to talk a little bit about you're experiences on your own businesses, your own E-commerce businesses and what that was like because you self-sold, you didn't use appropriate off those and I think the first one you did– Didn't you do a public auction with that? Andrew: First one? I did and it was kind of strange and I think you were kind enough to retouch me after that and give me some tips and talk to me about it in a real gracious way. I did it was reverse auction, so the way it worked was like I listed the site– well first it was– everything was publicly transparent as you know most of the sales that you do, fairly quiet about the financials, the instance, the data. And I– the options, I published all the financials, all the key things, there was a few things I held back that might have been easy to rip-off the business with but ninety (90) percent, for PINO balance sheet, all I can have set, I made public and– so that was one part. Second part was I do the answer, reverse auction and so the price started at a hundred and ninety to eighty five thousand dollars, and then every week would drop by ten thousand dollars until somebody decide they wanted to buy it and I had someone, I think at the first week of before evening drop, and take it up. So it was kind of a very unorthodox way to sell a business and only the first one to say I think I lacked out on getting a great buyer from the out set that we work well together and close the deal. I very much could've blown it in my face, but -yeah. A little bit different. Mark: If somebody wants to look at that, you can do a search on Google for E-commerce fuel and sign E-commerce business. I believe it actually come up in the third results, if I'm not mistaken or we can make it easier and link up our show notes, and some one will like the post . Andrew: Also, new link for the show notes and also if you could Google E-commerce fuel reverse auction or reverse auction “trollingmotors.net” That's the name of the business that might pop-up as well. Mark: That's right, remember that new E-mail do you have? I mean it was completely selfish forums on my part, I just wanted to be in front of the audience so– Andrew: (laughs) Mark: But see you got a lot of really cool resources available in E-commerce field obviously there is a form which is you have to apply for in order to get in to say no that you're going to get high quality members there. You guys also have a job board that you release in week. I think it's so , discretion it's so often to people who buys site and who want to have fines with good confidence and help. I don't really recommend anything to people but you guys just recently started up a job org. Andrew: We did, yeah! That something we saw was a both kind of a gap in the market and also just like you said, something our members are having a hard time with was finding a really good quality E-commerce talent. and our job award is focused on E-commerce directors or managers kind of high level. You know people they can run an entire operations for an owner as well as exceptional marketers PPC, E-mail Mark any things like that and exceptional customer service reps so people that are really good on customer service over the phone or email or chats. So that's our job board list in the positions we really focus on, and try to– try to build a community, a job board that's healthier so that when you run a store, you know where you can go to get in front of an audience of people looking for dispositions and if you're lucky to get the E-commerce world it's a great place to going to be able to find an opportunity, hopefully to get plugged in and you can actually find that at ecommercefuel.com/jobs. Mark: you're going to owe me a lot of thanks, I'm going to send them, all on the show notes. Andrew: , So Mark, I will happily send you as many links– [inaudible 0:32:58.6] I bet that won't be a problem. Mark: Of course, it's been an awesome state of Merchant report, this is your second doing it, is that right? Andrew: Second year doing it, hope to do it every year. And yeah– this is the second year. Mark: It's also lot of work to put together but there's few things I look forward to. As one of those things I look forward to, I think there's actually really good data insights in this report. Anyway that's been invite, or anyone who's in E-commerce space in general. This is something that you want to check out for sure. If you are not familiar with the E-commerce fuel I would definitely recommend checking them out and I know I'm completely endorsing you, this is not something I normally do but I really do believe we should do in over there at E-commerce fuel. I know so many members there that they become friends of our company and personal friends as well. I like to brag about things that I think will actually help people and honestly your group is out there helping a lot of people in space. Andrew: well thank you, I appreciate the kind words, Mark. And one thing I wanted to mention just on a say the merchant if you're a daily geek and you want the add the numbers or your smarter than me which is almost certainly the case and one plots some more insights from these, we make all of the data just openly available so you can go to the webpage for this post and download the full data set so by all means a stats measure or try to do the best I can but if you want to -if you have insights you can plot of it we do make whole data set available for people so, Mark: Yeah! and if you pull on any insights send an email over to Andrew, just let him know. I'm sure he would love to see it. Andrew: I'd love to hear about it, yeah , please do. Mark: Cool, Andrew thanks, so much for coming on, I hope to have you on some time in the future. Really, really appreciate it. Andrew: Mark, thanks for letting me, you know, the invitation and for the support that you've given the- to our fans, to our community over the years. Appreciate that as well Mark: Cool, alright, well hey, enjoy that vacation! Andrew: Thanks appreciate that! Links and Resources: eCommerceFuel State of the Merchant 2018 Story of Andrew's first eCommerce site sale eCommerce fuel job board

This week I'm joined by the one and only Ty Shaw. We dive deep into our connections with the Orishas and Ty talks us through some of her sexual empowerment work and how they all connect. Her work covers old traditions and new traditions, and her dedication to her practise is inspiring. This is one not to be missed! Connect with Ty through her website.  If you are interested in supporting this podcast though our Patreon you can do so here. If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe by RSS , iTunes, Stitcher, or email. Thanks for listening! If you dig this please subscribe and share with those who would like it. Andrew   transcription  ANDREW: Welcome to another installment of The Hermit's Lamp podcast. I am hanging out today with Ty Shaw, who is a fascinating human being. She practices a bunch of different traditions, and brings a lot of, you know, experience in a lot of different ways through life and spirituality to the conversation today. So, for folks who don't know who you are, Ty, why don't you introduce yourself? What -- Who are you and what are you about? TY: Oh, my god. Ooh child. Well, I am Ty Shaw, like you just said, and what am I about? I'm a Iyalorisa, palera Mambo, and a lot of other things, oh iyanifa, that's the most recent one! Always forget to list that one! ANDREW: Right. TY: And basically, what I have been doing is working with people within the tradition. I was obviously with my spiritual house, and the various, you know, people that I service in my communities, but my sort of day job now is in the space of sacred sexuality coaching, intimacy coaching, and really bringing, particularly, well, people in general, but women in particular, in alignment with sort of their spirituality and their sexuality, and kind of bridging that gap, and working in a space where people understand that when you talk about sacred sexuality that you don't have to look to India or to China or to Japan or to these other places, that we do have concepts of sacred sexuality from an African context ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: If you're willing to actually look at what we're doing and examine what we're doing. ANDREW: All right. Well, why don't you enlighten us on that? Because I know, you know, being a babalocha, right, you know? That sex, at least sex in general is very, we keep that inside of the Orisha tradition, you know, not inside of the tradition, but outside of the relationships and the connections there, you know, and people are often like, very slow to even get into conversations like that, because there is such an emphasis on having proper relationships and where those lines are ... TY: Right. ANDREW: So, where does that come from in what your experiences are for you? TY: Well, that's exactly why I do this work. Because our traditions are very conservative in how they look at sex ... ANDREW: Yeah. TY: Which to me, is not only counterproductive but contradictory, because everything we do mimics a sexual act on some level. If we want to take, say the babalawo for example, when the oluwo is pounding ikin, the oluwo is mimicking copulation, such that ikin, or odu, can give birth. When we go into the igbodú and we want to birth a new priest in the process of a kariocha, we are using the leads, singing the songs, doing the invocations ... ANDREW: Sure. TY: To get certain elements to give birth. You know, if we're sitting on the mat and we're divining with the odun and odí falls, or some iteration of oché, or something out of ogunda falls, we're going to be talking some sexual shit. [laughs] You know what I'm saying? ANDREW: I do! TY: Can you talk -- we deal with deities who cover these specific things. And, we deal with energy. We're priests. We understand that, just from a basic scientific perspective, that energy is neither created nor destroyed. It's how it's directed. So that means there is no difference between spiritual energy and sexual energy. And the fact that we vibrate on a different level as priests because we actively cultivate our energy -- we're cultivating our sexuality as well. And I think the fact that our traditions are so conservative, and don't allow for these deeper conversations, even though the liturgy, odu, the deities themselves, do speak of these things and act in these ways, because we haven't had these conversations and developed that language, we have what we see now, which is the manifestation of a plethora of, or an abundance rather, of sexual dysfunction, in an out of ritual in an out of the room, and a community of priests who are manipulating energies, but really have no basic concept of what energy is, how it works, and what you're conjuring. [laughs] So that's why I decided to get in that space. ANDREW: Yeah! So, when you're ... because lots of people who listen to this are not going to be practitioners of ATRs, or, you know, diasporic traditions or those things necessarily, let's pull this apart just a little bit more. Because I know exactly what I think you mean -- I mean, you're going to tell me if I'm right -- but -- I think one of the things that we want to make clear, is that some of the dysfunction that I think that you're talking about, I mean there's obviously the people who are having challenges themselves, which is a separate issue, but then there's the sort of dysfunction of people taking advantage of relationships, godparents, or other people who should be obeying a taboo that is like a parent to a child ... TY: Right. ANDREW: You know, or having relationships and using their power and position to take advantage of people. Right? We're talking about these kinds of things, right? TY: Right. Right. ANDREW: Yeah. TY: Well, one thing about that, we're talking about even in our intermittent relationships, we are seeing a lot of abuse coming to the surface, because of Facebook, sexual abuse, women who are being raped by their babalawo husbands, or men that I've encountered in this tradition who come seeking guidance and were molested by a godparent. You know? We have an abundance of people of color, amongst those people of color are women of color, and I personally in my adult life don't know any women of color who haven't experienced sexual abuse or sexual assault. So, we have this abundance of sort of sexual trauma, that comes up in our relationships in so many different ways, whether it's the baggage we bring to the tradition, or whether it's the abuse of power because of the dynamic within the tradition. But we still because of our conservativism, we don't have that conversation. ANDREW: Right. TY: And when we do, it's an accusatory one: You abused me. You did this. You didn't do booze up the bembé. You tried to take my husband. You know. But we don't necessarily have conversations around what the solutions are. What we're going to do about it. How do you fix them? If you're a babalawo that's married, and you have your apetdabe, how are you cultivating that sacred relationship? ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: Because that's our version of it! [laughs] You know what I'm saying? In a certain way. On a certain level. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: How are we cultivating our intimate relationships? How does that affect our vibration and our energy and how we cultivate our Ase as priests, and then what does that look like in terms of how do we treat each other in our interpersonal relationships? ANDREW: Sure. And how are we dealing with our own ... I mean, even if we don't have the kinds of traumas you're talking about, you know, we all exist in a culture that, you know, experiences toxic masculinity, and rape culture, and all of these bits and pieces and all sorts of exploitative pieces left over from a long time, in our culture, right? TY: Yes. ANDREW: And how do we look at ourselves and become clear about what is our desire? What is real? How do we communicate? Where does consent fit? TY: Right. ANDREW: You know, all of these things, right? Like these are important pieces ... TY: Yeah. ANDREW: Of cultivating ... Well, I mean, being a decent human being, for one, but like, and certainly being a spiritual human being for another, right? You can't. TY: Yeah. And we can't deal with these forces that again, we're engaging in sort of spiritual sexual acts in the process of giving birth and getting odu to conceive and put something out there that's new, and then appeasing this newborn thing via ebbó. We do these things, but there's a disconnect, there's some sort of cognitive dissonance, you know, between the act and the metaphysical understanding of the act, you know? Mmmhmm. ANDREW: I also think that people don't understand energy, as you kind of said earlier. Right? TY: Yeah, exactly, exactly. ANDREW: You know, one of the things that I noticed when I became a priest was, all sorts of people who started hitting on me who weren't hitting on me before. TY: Yeah, because you were orisha. ANDREW: Right? And I got Shango on my head, right? I mean, that's going to draw some heat, right? And, you know, and the thing is, is that, if I wasn't mindful of it, if some of my elders hadn't said, hey, this is probably going to happen, take it easy about that, then you'd get into all sorts of trouble, right? Because what's going on is those people aren't necessarily attracted to me ... TY: It's that energy! ANDREW: They're feeling that energy, and they want more of that, but we don't understand how to get close to spirit, or how to be intimate with human beings, and not frame that in a sexual context. Right? TY: Or, if it's in a sexual context, that doesn't mean we have to act in a debased way. How about receiving the energy because we are, like Shango is the pillar of virility, male virility, male marknotism, that's his Ase, and it is sexual, there's no way around that. How about we accept that that's what it is, internalize it, and use it for what it does? As opposed to saying, well, I feel arousal, this means I must screw, this means I must ... you know. As opposed to no, these are what vibrations and energy do, and you know that's why I started getting into vibrational medicine, you know, prana, reiki, tantric projection work, because we already have heightened vibrations as a result of having gone through ritual. And ideally, we're cultivating our Ase, cultivating ori, we're developing and uplifting that vibration. But so many priests I would have a conversation with about energy, vibration, how we magnetize it and move, there was just such a lack of understanding, and a lot of times I feel that we're doing ebbó, we're killing chickens, but what you need is a chakra cleanery, what you need is a past life regression, what you need is some spiritual counseling, it's an issue on a base level with your vibration. Which ebbó does address, through the power of sacrifice, but you're still not internalizing that in your vibration. ANDREW: Well, it's like I popped my collar bone out of place, recently, right? And, you know, I went to my osteopath and put it back in place, but the reason I popped it out of place, was cause muscles in my back were out of balance, and that is a physiotherapy thing, and so now I need to be ... you know, and so, and I think that that's true on many levels, right? Spiritual practices can make adjustments ... TY: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: And, in different kinds of spiritual practices, can be that physiotherapy ... TY: Right. ANDREW: But it's rare that one does all of them at the same time, right? You know? It's like you go for a reading with the Orishas, and they're going to, you know, realign your vertebrae, and be like this is where you should be and then you're going to leave, and all those wonky muscles and your habits are going to want to pull you back out of place, right? And whether that's energetic, or your circumstance, or your psychology, or whatever, right? Or the various baggage you're carrying with you? That's all that energy that wants to kind of disalign you again, right? TY: Right. And I think that's one of the major critiques I've had, like if anybody has seen my Facebook videos, I've done a lot of critiquing about what I think is healthy versus what I don't think is healthy, right? ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: And in that sort of process, not understanding energy has led this new generation of people that are kind of coming into the tradition with a level of ... how would I say, like a lack of respect for tradition? And in that process, they stereotype and pigeonhole certain energies because there's a fundamental misunderstanding of energy. So, like for example, I see this wave of new women coming into sacred sexuality, and not everyone's a child of Ochún. Because they think, okay, Ochún, sacred whore, sacred prostitute, no idea where that comes from, but this is what they say, and this is what they think, right? When it's like, Ochún, first of all, it's a stereotyping of this energy, because you don't even understand what you're talking about, it's a pigeonholing and it's a limiting of her, because depending on the road, you might be dealing with the crone, you might be dealing with the witch, you might be dealing with the demure healer, you might be dealing with something like Ochún Ibu Kwanda, the warrior. Who ain't got nothing to do with your coquette. [laughs] ANDREW: Yeah, for sure, right? TY: When people don't understand energy, when we don't understand how things work, and we stereotype, and we pigeonhole, we do everybody a disservice ... ANDREW: Yeah. TY: We don't, we don't get access to the thing, you know, that's really going to ... ANDREW: Yeah, I think that, I think it's challenging, because there's such a profound and sort of largely ... If you're outside of the tradition, largely inaccessible depth and diversity that's there, right? TY: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: You know, how many roads of Ochún are there? How many roads of ... you know? You know, this, that, and all those other spirits, right? TY: Right. ANDREW: And what do those things mean, right? TY: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: And what do ... and what if you're dealing with, I mean, you know, if you're dealing with those, or running into those, or if those are the paths or avatars that are sort of engaging with you, it's completely different to have one versus the other, right? TY: Yeah, right. ANDREW: There's the Yemaya who pulls you down to the bottom of the ocean, right? TY: Yep. ANDREW: And leaves you there! TY: And leave y'all! ANDREW: Right. And then there's those other paths that are going to love you and hold you while you cry and pat your back, right? TY: Oh, there's this my path, Achaba, who's just the shady one, who don't want to ... ANDREW: Yeah. Right? TY: You know. There's koha ibun shade .... ANDREW: [laughs] TY: But I love her, I love her. But that's why, like in my work ... Okay, I had become a palera , I became a iyalosha, I became a mom, though I became a iyanifa, and then I was like, well, why do I want to do any of this? What does this mean to me? What does priesting look like for me? ANDREW: Sure. TY: Do I ... Am I going to be able to do it in the way maybe my elders did it? Do I believe in the same things? What is this priesthood thing going to actually play out for me? And I found that in ... And I'm a young santera, you know what I'm saying, so, I mean, I'm 5 in Ocha this year -- no, I'm six. Am I six already? Shit! But anyway. ANDREW: It's really stacking up, right? [laughter] TY: You know, so I'm a baby olosha. Infant. And, in the process of me coming into adulthood as a nealOrisha, growing up and kind of going through adolescence, now, I have to ... I decided to consciously ... consciously move into priesthood. What is this priesthood thing going to look like for me? Where is going to be my medicine? What's going to be my point of departure? And that has always been whole person healing. What am I dealing with? What is Yamaya bringing to my doorstep? And yes, I can solve this with ebbó, but after ebbó, what is going to -- and that creates transformation -- but what's going to last? What's going to stick? What's going to change behavior? You know? And that's when I decided to go ... that my route was really as a healer ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: Getting into the spiritual development of the person, and then when I was trying to figure out well what healing would look like, outside of energy healing and spiritual cleanings and stuff, what I found is, that what people were lacking was the counsel and a way to really work through trauma, particularly trauma held within the body, of a sexual nature. And our tradition was no exception to that. So, it spoke to me of just the niche, that made sense, that I could kind of slide on into, you know? ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: So right now, it sounds like priesting for me is looking like being really woman/Goddess-centered, really witchy, and really focused on long-lasting transformation. ANDREW: Mmm. TY: In or outside of an igbodú or a new set of elekes, or the reception of a new Orisha. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: [laughs] You know what I'm saying? ANDREW: For sure, because so many, you know, I'm also a relatively young olocha, you know, but lots of people who come around for that part of what I do, they, so many of them almost show up with their shopping list, right? They're like, I'm coming to you, I want you to give me my elekes, please confirm that I'm a child of whomever, you know? And like, and so on, and it's like ... I don't know. Like, you know, let's see what happens, right? Whereas, when people come to me in my sort of card reading and you know, that other magical side of my life ... A lot of those things are more like what I think that all of it should be, which is, let's see what's going on, let's talk about what you need, let's work on this, and make that change so that it endures, right? TY: Right. ANDREW: Because it's so easy to, you know, when I made Ocha, Shango basically said to me, it was like, "Hey, welcome, you're here, so go fix your life, cause you've got some things that are messy that you made, and now you gotta go fix em cause Ocha can't do it," and I was like, "All right. Huh. That's not what I was hoping!" [laughs] TY: Right? ANDREW: You know? TY: Shango has a way of just popping that bubble. He kind of gave me something similar, in my Ita, Shango, he came down talking bout "You do not know how to live, and now you need to learn how to live. Learn how to live in this life, or you'll learn how to live in the other," we hear that refrain. You know? ANDREW: Yeah. TY: And I think I had a similar trajectory, like, I love teaching, you know, cards, crystals, all the airy fairy witchy stuff, because even though I had extensively studied African tradition, I studied traditional forms of witchcraft as well. I was a proper neoPlatonist high ceremonial magic type of witch [laughs] for a ... ANDREW: Yeah. TY: [[00:19:10] astrological magic, like, I came from Bea too, so ain't nobody going to get me to leave my cards behind, and none of that, but ... And I felt like there was space for that. Like there were, you know ... And spiritualism gives you that opportunity, right? To bring in anything you want? But, people would come with their shopping list, well I want this, I want to be crowned tomorrow, I need you to take me to Haiti, and then after that take me to Africa, and I want this and I want that, and usually my attitude is like, that's cute, that's what you want, you know, good for you, you are clear on your desires ... ANDREW: Yeah. TY: Which is ... [laughs] What do you actually need? Now that we've gotten through your laundry list, what's actually getting ready to happen here? ANDREW: Yeah. TY: Cause guess what, I don't move, unless Yamaya tells me this is what has to happen. ANDREW: Oh yeah. For sure. TY: [laughing] ANDREW: That piece of ... I don't know what the right word for it is ... understanding ... that the Orishas that sits on our heads, you know, and live with us, that nothing happens without their say so. Something so largely foreign to most people's concepts, right? You know? TY: Yeah. ANDREW: Like I remember, many years ago, I got this reading, and Aleyo was like, "No tattoos for you this year," and I was like, "huh, all right, fair enough, I'll stop," right? I had a bunch of stuff planned and I stopped. And a lot of people couldn't understand how I could be just like, "okay"? Like what if he never says yes again? And I was like, "Well, that's cool, I'll roll with that." But that's so hard for people to roll with, right? You know and because ... I think in part because we're encouraged to be ego-centered in a way that is hard to wrestle with ... TY: Yes. ANDREW: But also because of all these traumas that we've been talking about, right? TY: Yes. ANDREW: How much harder is it for someone to put that kind of trust in somebody, if they have, you know, whatever kinds of traumatic experiences and abuses from people who should be ... who were supposed to be there facilitating them? Parents, priests, guides, whoever, right? TY: You know, I agree with that, because it's about several things. It's about shifting from a very Western individualist self-absorbed ego-centric way of being and moving through the world, which I'm not even judging, because those are actual tools we need to survive in the West. ANDREW: Sure. TY: [laughs] Okay? A certain amount of selfishness is necessary for your survival in this place. However, it does create a learning gap. Because you kind of have to cross that bridge to understand how everything functions in this particular tradition. And the unique thing about this tradition is that it's not just all this ... I think we also get really idealistic and we think that we have all these proper African values, and we don't. We have diaspora values, because if you rob them [22:09?] of cultural nuances they don't recognize in Africa. They're not doing that. And we have to separate the caricature of Africa that we have, this ideal ... this, you know, ideal, you know, Africa that doesn't exist. What we're dealing with is post-colonial Africa, that has just as much white supremacist misanthropic bullshit as any one of us. ANDREW: Yeah. Well and also, you know, which part of Africa are we talking about, right? You know? Are we talking about ... TY: Thank you! Thank you! ANDREW: Are we talking about, you know, Ifé, are we talking about the Congo, are we talking about wherever, like, you know, I mean ... TY: Right. Right. ANDREW: I know people come in and they're like "well, you know, I was talking to a Sengoma, and that's exactly like what you do," and I'm like, "No, not really," like, in a general way it's animist and whatever, but other than that, no, it's not the same at all, right? TY: Right. And that's a problem. they think of Africa as a monolith, as one like homogenous sort of thing. They don't understand the level of nuance. And this is why I've always battled these faulty notions and assertions of purity in this tradition and who's more pure, who has the right way, who's the closest to the root? And it's like, nobody, because what is properly African is that we've always assimilated, and brought in what works, and transformed and adapted. And if you go to Nigeria right now, what they're doing in Ejife, is not what they're doing in Oyo, is not what they're doing in Abayokuda, is not what they're doing in Oshopo. They're all doing something different! Compound to compound, region to region! Because there's always been sort of that gap to allow for spirit, to allow for adaptability, that's how we learn. ANDREW: Well, and I think that that's the power of lineage, right? You know? TY: Sure. ANDREW: Like, what you're going to do, you can't do anything ... TY: Yeah. ANDREW: But you can do anything that fits within the bounds of your lineage, right? TY: Exactly. ANDREW: And that's the real meaning of, like, oh, in my house we do this, it's like, you know, lots of people use that as a justification for what they don't know or to just do whatever they feel like, or be like, oh, I can't get that, so you know in my house now, now we give turkeys instead of chickens, cause they're easier to get, or whatever, right? And it's not ... that's not valid, right? What's valid is understanding what's going on within your lineage, and then honoring and working with that, because that is something, those are the spirits that we're calling on to work, right? You know, in one way or another. TY: I've always been a bit of a lineage snob. Particularly in this day and age where people feel that they can self-initiate and they can get their head marked via tarot, and they can get initiated online, this, because, the thing about lineage, right, when I ... I try to explain this to new people, it's like if you're a Christian it doesn't mean that you all believe the same thing, you might be a 7th Day Adventist, you might be a Baptist, there are denominations here. And I feel that we've gotten to the point in our traditions where we have denominations, okay? And within each denomination, lineage becomes important because that's going to imply style, technique, and approach. Okay? We may all believe certain things, but how it plays out, how it looks in ritual, our approach to ritual, technique, that's going to be based on lineage. I think Palo is a great example of that. When you tell me the ramen, you tell me the house, now I know what kind of Palo you do. Because that's what lineage dictates. What types of agreements do you have with the forces you have the ability to access and conjure, and what do your ceremonies look like? Because everything outside of ceremony, ritual, and the protocols associated with them, that's what we dictate and what we have a blueprint for. Everything outside of that is between you and your spirit. You got to work that out! And that's why lineage gives you the blueprint, right, for how ritual, what makes you a certain thing, what makes another thing a thing, then outside of that, that's all you, boo! ANDREW: Yeah, for sure, right? ANDREW: It's all about getting to know what your particular Orishas like and want, right, you know? I mean, cause people always want to do big ceremonies, and more often than not, you know, if I cook a little amala ila for Shango, he's gonna eat up and get whatever I want, right? You know? Like, it's easy, once you sit and listen. Once you understand and build that connection. But, you know, but that quest for purity or truth or like, the solution, you know, it's not always bigger and better things, it's learn to work what you have, right? And then apply that and then you can go from there. TY: And insofar as learning to work what you have is concerned, I think that's another challenge, because one of the main critiques I sort of have of our traditions right now is that I don't think people are practicing African tradition or African-inspired tradition. I feel like they're Christians in elekes. Because they kind of bring all their Christianity and dress it up in nice African fabric and put beads on it, but it's still Christianity. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: And I find that that is especially true with how we understand and approach Orisha. Sometimes our relationship and approach to Orisha is devotional, and sometimes it's not. I'm not always on my knees begging like I'm praying to the Lord, sometimes I'm sending Orisha on a mission, and I think people have forgotten that, and I see that that disconnect comes in mostly since the African American involvement in Orisha tradition. The reason why I say that is because [00:27:56--garbled] coming up with these older Cubans, Puerto Ricans ... I have seen them be like hiding drugs in Ocha, or getting a custom Elegua out cause they want some shit to go down or they busting somebody outta jail, it wasn't this elitist thing, and it wasn't so ... the level of Christianized judgement, and this just pray to Orisha and give agomu, I don't work with Uheria, that's very different, because we have songs, we have liturgy that calls us powerful sorcerers and sorceresses, and how we work with Orisha. I think that we have to reexamine what our relationship is. Is it this Christianized devotion? Or sometimes do you work with Orisha like any other sorcerer in any other tradition? And what are these ideas that we're bringing in that are foreign and counter-productive? Because if you are just purely devotional, right? and you just throw in so that you can appease Orisha and get on your knees, do you really know what that Orisha likes and how it could work for you or how you could get up and make something pop when you need it? Do you really know that? Or do you know how to appease Jesus on Sunday and beg? And does that make you a priest? Or does that make you a slave to some spirit? And you call it Ocha? ANDREW: Mmm. Well. I had the, I think, good fortune, it's one of the best gifts that I think my parents gave me, which was to not be raised with anything. So, religion was nonexistent in my household. Which, you know, I think was tremendously liberating compared to where a lot of people come from when they come into these things, right? And I think that this question of what is, what does it mean to exist with a magical religion, right? TY: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: Is something that is quite different than what a lot of people expect or understand, right? And it's neither as simple, at least in my experience, as "Hey, dude, I was sitting on the couch playing video games all month and I need some like money for rent, hook me up," right? TY: Right. ANDREW: That doesn't necessarily work either, right? I mean, maybe? Maybe the first time, maybe sometimes. Or you know, “bust me out of jail,” or whatever ... TY: Of course, there's spontaneity. Right. ANDREW: But it's also not. TY: Yeah. ANDREW: Not that either, right? You know? And sort of this distinction between the things that we want and need to live in this world and live in this life, right? TY: Uh huh. ANDREW: I mean, they are there to facilitate those things. TY: Right. ANDREW: And -- TY: I think it -- ANDREW: Go ahead. TY: No, no, I'm sorry, go ahead. ANDREW: Well, I was going to say, and, they are there cause they can see how we can free ourselves from the problems we make for ourselves, or the problems other people bring, and sort of move beyond them, or move and minimize them as we go through life, right? Because ... TY: Yes. ANDREW: You know, life is complicated, right? TY: It's the battle of the Osobos and the Iré, right? All these forces of negativity that exist in the world on many levels ... ANDREW: Right. ANDREW: And some of those come from us, too, right? And learning to overcome those ones that are ... Not in a "we're all sinners" kind of way, like we've all got baggage, we've all got tendencies, maybe we're lazy, maybe we're too greedy, maybe we're hateful or whatever, and those things undermine our lives, and we need to ... you know, it's that balance of both, I think, right. TY: Right. ANDREW: Cause literally people come into the shop and "I need you to Santeria somebody," and I'm like, "whatever, “Dude, I don't even know what you mean, but no." Like, forget it? You know? yeah. TY: I see -- I mean, I see your point. I guess what -- not I guess -- one of the things I'm resistant to is elitism in this tradition. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: Because it has become elitist on a number of levels just because of the price point, the introduction of just the academia, you know, into this? So, there's also an intellectual elitism here ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: And with that elitism, there's been sort of this political attempt to Christianize in terms of its values, and what we do, we don't do that, and it's like, um, but we do! Because I remember very distinctly being called for those basement ochas that we had to do in an emergency cause somebody was going to jail, or, you know, [laughs] somebody has some illness, and it was a bunch of poor people in that ocha in a project apartment saving somebody's life. I remember when it wasn't elitist. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: You know? And there wasn't any shame around doing an obra versus an ebbó. And how I'm distinguishing those terms, when I say an obra, a work, something that you don't throw for, that you go, you put it together, and you tell Orisha, versus ebbó that comes out of a divination and Orisha done told you! ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: I remember that, there being a distinction and watching santeros move in that way. I remember that there wasn't the stigma and the shame around, yo, maybe I do need to come up with my rent cause I'm getting put out of my house and I need to go to Elegua to open a door. ANDREW: Yeah. TY: I remember because there was no stigma around that. ANDREW: Well and, I hope I didn't come across wrong, because I think there should be no shame. Right? We are all where we're at, and we're all in places and life is complex and variable and many things happen, right? TY: Right. ANDREW: And, you know? There are those times when we need to make those things, or to, you know, kick 'em in the pants a little bit and be like, "Elegua, dude, rent's due on the first, it better be in my account before that, my friend, it needs to happen, or we're all in on the street," right? or whatever, and I think there should never be any shame in any of that or in needing healing or, you know. I mean, all of those things, I think that we're all human and we all need those things all the time and we'd be foolish to think that that's not going to be the case, right? But I also do agree that there's a tendency to try and niceify, right? You know? TY: Yep. You say it even more in Nigeria. You see it even more in the Nigerian priests, with this attempt at, you know, Christianizing Ifa because of the onslaught of just attack from Muslim- and Christian-kind in Nigeria. ANDREW: Sure. Right? And you know, and it's ... you see it in a lot of, you know, more fringe places, right, you see it in the LGBT community, right, and all those extra letters too, where, it's like, well, look, we're just like you, we're this way, we're that way, and that's true for some people, and for other people it's not, right? And I think that those kinds of diversity ... it doesn't benefit anybody either to leverage one group down so that we could sort of be up, right? You know in the way that like, historically Palo and Lucumí traditions went through that conflict, right? You know, there's the historical divide, right? TY: Well, still. ANDREW: Well still, but like, you know, there were specific historical events where, you know it was like all of a sudden, well, you know, we'll throw the Palo community under the bus for this ... TY: Yeah. ANDREW: And show how legitimate and good we are, right? TY: And they're still doing it. I was very resistant to making Ocha for a lot of years, because I was palera for a long time before I became an olosha. ANDREW: Yeah. TY: And one of the things that I've [35:39--inaudible]... that I was really resistant about, was what I call Lucumí-, or Yoruba-centric [distortion/inaudible at 00:35:51]. You know, Yorubas tend to posit themselves at the top of this whole priest -- overstep their boundaries, an Orisha priest telling you, you have abatowa crown, get rid of your nganga. How? Why is it you feel that your tradition gives you the right to tell somebody what can and can't happen in a completely separate practice? Okay? And that's your eccentric elitism. That's Lucumí-centric elitism. And we see it because Lucumí is the most expensive initiation, that people feel like once they get crowned they've arrived, honey, they got the big crown ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: And it perpetuates this contention. It also perpetuates a lot of misinformation. Like Cholla is not Ochún. She will never be Ochún. Saramanda is not Ogun. Nusera is not Elegua. [laughs] You understand what I'm saying? ANDREW: Yeah. Well and I think it's part of that desire or ignorance that promotes generalization, right? You know? TY: Yes. ANDREW: I mean, it's not 100% true, but I often sort of think, if there's an odu that says you shouldn't do that, then that means there's not a general prohibition against it because it's required to come up, right? And I mean, it's a little too cut and dry maybe, but I think there are so many things where people want to sort of posit a set of rules, like obatala should never drink, you know? TY: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: These people are going to be this way, this spirit's going to be that way, once you're a priest you should never do whatever again, and it's not that way, you know? It doesn't need to be that way. TY: Right. ANDREW: And that is that sort of stereotyping and you know, sort of modeling ideas that are not universal ... TY: Yes. ANDREW: But people want to make them, either because it gives them power, or cause they don't know better, right? TY: Yes. And in some cases, it's just superstitious and unnecessary. Like, I'll give you an example. I went to an Orisha birthday, to go see someone's Orisha, and you know in the process of ocha birthdays, we're sitting, we're gossip, we're talking shit. We get into a conversation about firearms, right? Because I don't go nowhere unarmed, okay? I'm a black woman living in the USA. I'm going to be ... if you see me, you're going to see ... ANDREW: I've seen your Instagram! TY: [laughs] You know, so ... we were talking about firearms, and there was a priest that was much older than me, I feel like she was in her 20s, and she was like, well you know, none of us carry weapons, we've all blunted all of the knives in our house because many of us have ogun [garbled at 00:38:38] in our Ita, and we give that over to Ogun. And I was like Er? What the hell does that have to do with your ability to protect yourself? Number one, did ogunda come in some harsh osogbo that told you to deal with the entire house, and what does any of that have to do with my basic human right to defend myself? ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: And then her response was, you know, well [inaudible--some missing audio? at 00:39:07] Ogun, I'm not going to take on Ogun's job, but I'm going to tell you, I'm going to tell you, I'm going to tell you, there's nothing he could have ever told me in Ita that would have had me unarmed for the rest of my life, not as a single mother, hell no. There is nothing you could have told ME that would have made me put down my firearms. And there was nothing that I heard her say out of her Ita that made any of that make sense to me. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: That sounded crazy. But I hear this level of superstitious ignorance that manifests in general taboos for entire houses, all the time. Now suddenly one person's Ita is everybody's Ita. It's crazy! ANDREW: Sure. Well and I see -- I've seen that prohibition with that piece of advice come out in a reading for somebody, and it didn't surprise me, cause that relationship in that house was on the edge of exploding into physical conflict maybe, right? TY: Right. ANDREW: And so, like there are times when that stuff can come out and should come out, but that's where you gotta look at your life and see what's going on, right? Like I -- Somebody came to me for a reading and you know, it was one of those like, hey, the Orishas love you, hugs and kisses, see you later, right? And it was like, okay, when should I get initiated? And I was like, why? TY: Cause you're not about that. Right. ANDREW: “Are you sick? Are you broke? Are you ... like, what's going on?” And they're like, “No.” I'm like, "You're good, you don't need it, don't worry about it." You know? So, I think that that, yeah, it's where you need to be understanding about yourself and your relationship, right? TY: Yes, yes, and move beyond superstition. I think that we have a very sophisticated methodology and system of divination that doesn't give us ... we don't have the burden of having to have superstition. Or even faith, to a certain extent. We do divination, we do ebbó, ebbó works. [laughs] We trust that it works because we've seen in work. You know? We have divination and confirmation. ANDREW: Sure. TY: Which is one of the reasons why I like this tradition. Cause I ain't got to be believing in no pie in the sky! You do divination, you do the ebbó! [laughs] ANDREW: As Crowley puts it, right? TY: Right, right! ANDREW: As Crowley puts it in one of his books, success is your proof, right? That's it. Certainty, not faith, right? TY: Ase, and I've never done well with faith. Which is why Palo and Vodou make me happy, you do something, something happens. ANDREW: Right. TY: [laughs] You know? So. It's all of that, all of it. ANDREW: So, I have a question for you about the intimacy counseling and the work that you're doing with people, right? So, is that a energetic thing? Is that a spiritual practice? Is that like -- Where do the intersection ... Cause I'm always curious with people who practice a bunch of different things and then have outside people come and engage that, right? TY: Yeah. ANDREW: Are you engaging people within their own practices? Are they coming to you for practices? How does that look and work for you? TY: So, usually, it depends. People who have no relation to this practice but just need sex and intimacy coaching usually look like regular old clients. They book an appointment, we have some talk therapy, and then I do a healing. That healing may be energetic, like in tantric projection work or energy work that they need to clear out some trauma. It may be a past life regression or some spiritual cord that I have to cut cause of what they're dealing with. It may be physical, because as a somatic sex educator, we also guide people through certain body practices, so for example, if I have a person who is ashamed of their body as a result of trauma, has never masturbated. I might do guided coached masturbation, or I might have a couple who want to reinvigorate their sex life and they want to learn new techniques, so I'll guide them through it. So that's where the body-based therapy might come in. Someone in the tradition, it will probably start with some type of spiritual reading and see what's happening with you spiritually and then how that plays out in your life in the form of coaching. And the sex tends to be, especially in the tradition, talk therapy only. It comes out in my spiritual counseling, so like for example, I might do a divination, and let's say I see a lot of odí falling, and I know that there might be some addiction stuff, or some sexual trauma, some abuse, some other things, that that letter would point to. Well, I'll do the ebbó, I'll get that out of the way, but then after that I'm going to book a spiritual counseling session, and let's talk about what made that manifest on that, and what really needs to happen with you energetically and spiritually and hold space for that. And sometimes that is talk therapy around their sexual trauma, because of course, that letter fell and that oftentimes points to rape or molestation or all kinds of stuff, right? ANDREW: Sure. TY: In addition to that, as a tantrica, when I lead workshops with people, mostly single women or couples, they're looking to bring the sacred into their bedroom in a certain way. In terms of my tantra training, I came through, I'm an initiated tantric, I was initiated in the Shri Vidya lineage, a Debi Kudarum, very goddess-centered, and to me, it ain't nothing but some Indian Palo honey, I don't know, cause you know, they with them goddesses, they put out them yantras, honey and you get to chant and then that thing MOVES, okay, but in addition to Shri Vidya tantra, I studied Ipsaun tantra, Shakti pat, I received several activations, and I am now studying grand trine active shamanistic tantra. So, I will teach them how to do tantric projection, like no hands, no touch, energy orgasms, healing the body and the trauma energetically, and even just tantric lovemaking, tantric interaction. And I've found that people in this tradition, even though the two don't overlap, they are very interested in it, because again, we don't have a space to have these conversations. We don't have a way of talking about how we can relate in a spiritual manner [laughs] that, you know. ANDREW: Well, we're all human beings, right? We want to ultimately, I think, one of our desires, for almost everybody, is to want to show up on every level for the sexy times, right, you know? Cause once you understand or experience other levels of awareness ... TY: Right. ANDREW: You know? You want to bring that everywhere, right? But as you say, it's not really a ... there's not really a mechanism for that. TY: Right, right. I mean but the thing is I feel that we do, we do have our concept of sacred relationship because for, in my opinion, when the awo, and his apedibi, Soday, and marry, that's our sacred relationship, when the Ialosha and the Babalosha marry. They ... that's our sacred relationship, because now you have the bringing together of these two powerful entities that can birth something. Now what's going to change it is the context, the intention, the consciousness, and what you're going to put forth in it. But the fact that it exists ... I think is ... I think if it didn't exist there would be no need for the Babala to have an Apedibi, to have that feminine counterpart to the masculine, you know? To bring about that balance and uplift his Ifa. [laughs] You know what I'm saying? So, we definitely have it, but do we understand what we have? Do we not articulate it? And then what does it mean? So, you know, doubling back to your initial question, your average person looks like talk therapy and then whatever body-based somatic therapy they may need according to their issue. The average person in this tradition, I kind of keep separate, and it stays on like a counseling, I have to counsel them one on one, because a), having the conversation itself is damn near taboo, as conservative as we are, and b) you can't bring that into ritual, you've got to do ritual first and then have a separate conversation about that. ANDREW: For sure. Yeah. Mmmhmm. I've got to say I dig how you're navigating all that. TY: [laughs] Yeah. ANDREW: So, I've got one more question for you before we wrap up. TY: Uh huh. ANDREW: So, how do you sustain all these traditions you're doing? I get a little tired just hearing about it! [laughs] TY: On a schedule. [laughs] ANDREW: Yeah! TY: Well, I work for myself, so I wake up, usually I have sunrise meditation and yoga, and then I tend to my ancestors and whatever loa might be that day, so Tuesdays I'm on my Petro, and you know, whatever, Thursdays I'm on my rada, and then I go ahead and reap my Orisha, my ifa, and I keep it moving. At night, I normally deal with my prendas ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: And I try to keep my workings to them around what's going on in the sky, and I mostly work that outside and at night. And you know, loa gives you a schedule, cause loa has to be served every day, and you know, it's certain people that you serve on certain days. Orisha, all they need daily is to breathe, pour libations and keep it moving, you know? I might throw to my Orisha, you know, my head Orisha once a month, Elegba, maybe once a week, appease him, you know, my little Sundays or Mondays, I keep it moving! You know, they, it's just ... it's such a part of my lifestyle, it's I wake up, yoga, meditation, greet Luwan, have your day, come back, say hello to the Palo people, go to bed. You got ebbó to do, do your work. ANDREW: Yeah. TY: [laughs] ANDREW: I love it. I mean I think it's one of those things, right? So many people ... I hear many people who kind of say that they want to live that kind of life, right? You know, that that's what they're looking for. TY: You gotta be built for that life. ANDREW: Yeah. [laughs] ANDREW: Yeah, cause you know, I mean, it's one of those things, right? I mean, you know, I mostly just, I mean I work with my, you know, my spirit guides and my Orisha, right? But like, it takes up a chunk of time and energy and it takes a real consistency of focus that I think that is challenging, you know? I know that I certainly when I was starting out struggled with it. And that sort of scheduling it, and just being like these are the ways that things happen, that's it, right? TY: Yeah. That's it! ANDREW: The obligation needs to be sustained, right? TY: Yeah, and I think because I didn't do it back to back. Like I had years in between each so I kind of was able to get acclimated, develop a routine, before something else came in, you know? And they're separate, I keep them separate, like they each have their own room, their own space, all of that. But they function in similar ways. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: You know what I'm saying? They function in similar ways. ANDREW: Yeah. TY: So, every day if I get up and I greet my ancestors, that's gonna be a new tradition. And today, you know, I might have to blow some rum [inaudible at 00:50:04] You know what I mean? So, I mean it's not as far in or as complicated as some people make it sound. ANDREW: [inaudible--asking to repeat] TY: I said it's not as far in or complicated as some people make it sound. Even if you were just the palero, right? You're not sitting with your nganga for hours every day! You're not doing that! ANDREW: No. TY: Or most, you get up, you greet, you light 'em up and you keep it moving, unless you got something to do! ANDREW: Yeah. TY: That doesn't change, cause you got other things. ANDREW: That's true. And they've got other places to be too, right? TY: Right! ANDREW: Like they're not sitting 24 hours a day waiting for everyone. “Oh my god, I'm not bringing the tv down here, you know, we're not watching our shows together, I'm getting sad about this,” that doesn't happen, yeah. TY: They should be out there fixing the problems in my life, not sitting here! [laughs] ANDREW: Mmmhmm. For sure. That's awesome. Well, thank you so much for making time today, Ty. TY: Yep. ANDREW: People want to come and find you online, where's the best place to come and hang with you? TY: http://www.iamtyshaw.com. ANDREW: Beautiful! Go check it out! TY: Yes. ANDREW: All right. Well, thank you. TY: Yes, thank you! We'll talk soon. All right, bye.

Andrew Oliver, co-founder of the PJCE, lives in London now, but back in 2008 he and a group of ambitious graduates of Portland State University staged the first concert in the group's history. Oliver didn't know what he was getting himself into, but we're glad he did.   [Andrew] I was stupid enough to make a 501(c)3 without having any idea of what I was getting into… [Doug] Welcome to Beyond Category, from the Portland Jazz Composers Ensemble. I’m Douglas Detrick. This season, we’re celebrating a big milestone: the PJCE is turning ten. Our first concert, in January of 2008, was a grand experiment. Co-founders Andrew Oliver and Gus Slayton wanted to produce a concert of new music for their own large jazz ensemble. They were passionate about the project, but they had no idea if anyone else would care. Fortunately for all of us, it turned people did care, a lot of them. The energy from that night powered the organization through its tenuous early days, and it’s still feeding us today. [music] Before the organization incorporated as a 501c3, the PJCE was just a group of friends, mostly recent graduates and members of the big band at Portland State University. They ended the school year with a disappointment that pushed them to take action. I talked with Andrew Oliver, co-founder of the PJCE, from Portland while he recorded his answers in London. [Andrew] It had to do with this big band festival in Notre Dame. We didn’t get marked that highly, because we didn’t play like a traditional big band. It was interactive big band playing...improvising, the rhythm section was really active, and the judges were like “well that was very traditional, the rhythm section didn’t support the horns very well” and blah blah blah. And Charley was kind of offended because that was his total aesthetic and he’d been working us all year to achieve that sound. [Doug] He’s talking about Charley Gray, the director of the PSU big band. [Andrew] There was a bit of momentum after that. We got back, and it was me and gus, and Kevin Van Geem and Kyle Williams, and we said we have this stuff to play, so why don’t we get together at the Union sometime, since that was the only big room we had access to, and play this stuff, you know. So, that happened on Canada Day… I remember it was on Canada Day because that’s the password of all the… [Doug] I’m going to jump in here and confirm that yes, all of the passwords for the organization’s online accounts were canadaday with some number after it—canadaday1, canadaday2008 with a capital C… And yes, we’ve changed all of our passwords since then. [Andrew] So, first of July, ok. That happened in July, the next month after graduation. [Douglas] The idea turned into a rehearsal. [Andrew] We just played the tunes for fun, and that was basically it. We didn’t have any other ideas. But by the autumn we had that idea that we’d do this concert. So I think we had very many rehearsals, and then I got excited as usual, and I thought “let’s do this concert!” [Andrew] The first concert was my band and the PJCE. We had a mix of pieces, by Gus, and me, and Eric Allen, and stuff that we had written for the PSU big band that we repurposed. And then we had some other pieces. Matt Wiers wrote a piece, and John Nastos wrote a piece. [Andrew] KMHD was very loose in those days. So you could just go in and talk. I think it was Lynn’s show, and we didn’t have any time restrictions so we just kind of went and hung out for the whole show. We were just chatting about it for an hour, between all the songs. It was unbelievable. So many people came! People came from the Oregon Coast because they heard us on there, I remember. There was some sort of incredible momentum. We had no expectations, but the place was totally packed. It just seemed at the time that all of these people showed up out of the woodwork. Whether or not the music lived up to it at the time I have no idea. I don’t think the concert was very good, it certainly wasn’t very well rehearsed. It was just all vibe, basically. [Douglas (on tape)] Tell me about the vibe. What was it like to be there, when you think back about it now? [Andrew] It was one of the first things I did in Portland where there seemed to be interest because of the idea. When I think back about why I was so excited about it, I think that was why. The idea behind it was what drove it, was what drove the interest and was why there was such a good atmosphere in the room. [Douglas (on tape)] How do you think things changed over your tenure? How did you make a transition from something that was pretty informal to something that was a little bit more organized, more of a thing. [Andrew] I guess what happened, inevitably, was that once the high of that wore off, slowly—we did a few more concerts after that, another couple of concerts at the store and at the Old Church—it was getting a bit crazy because more people were getting involved, and more people were wanting to write more complicated music, myself included. And the we still didn’t really have any money. I think as all those things began to come together, it got to a point where the balance got off. The music was too hard to perform well based on the amount of time people were willing to rehearse without getting paid. [Andrew] It seemed easy in my mind. I didn’t realize how much of a monster it was going to be. Here’s an opportunity for us to get some more money, and that will allow us more time to rehearse and commission better music, or rehearse the music we had, or play in better venues. [Andrew] The reason for having a large group became a challenge. At first we didn’t have to have a reason for having a large group. We just wanted to do it, so we did. And there was no reason. The reason that we wanted to have a large group changed over time. At the time when we started and even when we became a non-profit, I mean it seems naive, but I didn’t think about why we had a large group other than that we wanted to have a large group. But later on when we were trying to do more conceptual projects, I thought, damn, I wish we just had a quartet, or we could have just a quartet. [Douglas (on tape)] Have you thought of an answer to that question now? About why it was that you guys did that, and why it was worth doing. [Andrew] Well, I think we were just young and excited. When we started to write for large group, no of us had done it before. I mean it was really excited from a compositional standpoint, to be able to have all those voices and textures at your disposal. I still think the original reason was valid. To have a large group for the sake of writing for a large group because you enjoy is great, it’s as good as doing any thing else. It was an innocent decision. Later on this stuff came as a result of having a large group because you need more money to pay more people and this kind of thing. The decision to have a large group was just an artistic decision, which was good. [Douglas (on tape)] I love the naivete… [Andrew] Oh man, it would never have happened if it weren’t for that. I would never do something like this now. I would never start something like this now. At all. [Douglas (on tape)] And I wouldn’t have either. The fact that it was already there, and there was already a 501c3 and there was already a board. Even though there was tons of work to do, to try to make it into what I would want it to be if I was going to do it. If you hadn’t started it, I wouldn’t have done it, and it wouldn’t be here now. [Andrew] Yeah, but that’s why it’s’ good. We needed both me and you. I was stupid enough to randomly start a 501c3 without any idea of what I was getting into. But I never had the vision to make it work beyond just starting it. [music] [Doug] A few important ingredients came together when the PJCE began—some good luck, some support from the community, and a whole lot of youthful exuberance. The organization has changed a lot, but we’ve stayed true to mission that was established that night—new jazz music that is innovative, collaborative, and community-oriented. [music] Today with the PJCE, fundraising matters, ticket sales matter, budgeting and strategic planning matter. But, we still have the same twinkle in our eyes and flutter in our hearts that Andrew and his collaborators had. Those feelings guide us now just as much as they did in 2008. This episode is going live just before the end of 2017. But no matter when you’re listening, you can take the next step from being a podcast subscriber to being a PJCE Sustainer. Yes, you too can be one of the wonderful people that support us with contributions as little as $5 a month. Do it now at pjce.org/sustain. I’m Douglas Detrick, Executive Director and podcaster-in-chief at the Portland Jazz Composers Emsemble and you’ve been listening to Beyond Category. Music in this episode was composed by Andrew Oliver, from his PJCE Records album “Northwest Continuum” which you can purchase at pjce.bandcamp.com. Thanks for listening.

Our third and final episode of maritime tales. Among some lighthearted shorts, we meet a sailor's wife, and then witness the birth of the ship that's we've heard so much about. Music: Creepy — Bensound.com.     James: Here are some Totally Made Up Tales, brought to you by the magic of the internet. Alternating: Jump over small hoops. It's better than going through them. Sweeten your deal with honey. It will help you get sales. Mixing your metaphors will lead you to water. Walk a long way. You'll clear your mind and stretch your legs. James: And now: The Sailor's Wife. Alternating: Heather was the wife of a sailor who spent many months away at sea at a time. She survived on hope and her only consolation was her child, Phillip. He was the apple of her eye. Three years old and running around like a maniac. Just the spit of his father. One day, Heather and Phillip were playing in the sand when Phillip saw a ship entering the harbour. "That is my Daddy's ship," he cried. "No," said Heather. "Your daddy is away for another six months." "No," said Phillip. "That is my Daddy's ship," and he stamped his foot petulantly. Heather caught him up in an embrace. "We'll go and look at it." They walked to the harbour wall, Phillip squirming in anticipation. "There he is!", he said, pointing to a man walking away from the ship. "No," said Heather. "That man is too tall." "There!" said Phillip, pointing at a different man. "No," said Heather. "That man is too short." "There!", said Phillip, pointing at a third man. "Well," said Heather, "it is very similar to Roger. I wonder what he's doing back so soon." They walked quickly to where the man was standing. "Are you my husband?", asked Heather. "Are you my Daddy?", asked Phillip. "Are you my family?", asked the man, and they embraced. "Why are you back so soon?" asked Heather. "That is a long story," said Roger, "and one day, I will tell it to you." "We met a disaster just as we were passing the Rock of Gibraltar. The Captain saw three figures floating above the deck and one pointed at him and let a fearsome cry. The second pointed at him and spoke words of dread. The third pointed at him and spoke nothing. The Captain locked himself in his cabin and refused to come out, insisting that we return home at once. The First Mate brought us around and navigated us safely home. I do not know when we shall sail again, but this is a terrible portent." Heather held his hand and hoped that he would never go away again. Phillip also held his father's hand. The End. Alternating: Attention to detail is a devil's errand, so allow yourself to be sloppy. Muster Mister Custer, pester Lester. Faster, Pastor Caster! and foster Coster Gloucester. "Splice the main brace," said Jeffrey, and proceeded to get drunk. James: And now: The Ship Awakes. Andrew: Bang, bang, bang, bang, bang went the hammers against the wood and the sound reverberated around the mighty shed of the shipyard. James: They were putting the finishing touches on the latest ship to roll through the George & Brothers Shipyards, at Chatham. Andrew: She was a truly beautiful vessel, destined for the merchant marine. Large, imposing, grandiose, sleek, missing only the final pieces of decking and the mast to be fixed and raised. James: Spencer, the ship's architect was watching from one side, from the office, as the men swarmed over her. Andrew: He turned, from watching the finishing touches being made, to the ship that he had been imagining for so long. Rolled up the plans on his desk, locked the office door, and headed off to meet the ship's new owner. James: Over a pint in the Rope and Anchor, they toasted the successful completion of the ship's hull, and looked forward to her launch next week, to join the merchant fleet owned by this particular businessman. Andrew: The end of the day came, the foreman blew his whistle, the workmen downed their tools and set out for their homes, and the shipyard shed was locked securely for the night. James: There she rested, silent and waiting. Andrew: The silence of the ship building shed at night had the special quality that only comes to spaces that so often ring with noise. It had a textured feeling to it, as if you could reach out and touch it. James: A shaft of moonlight through the windows of the shed, illuminated the brass name plate on the ship's stern. "Sea Sprite." Andrew: If anyone had been in the shed, they might have had the eerie feeling that someone behind them was watching, and have turned and found nothing but the ship bearing down on them, as its soul slowly started to awaken. James: What do ships dream about before they first touch the ocean? What can a boat imagine before it feels the kiss of a wave? What could go through the mind of Sea Sprite, before she had ever even tasted the open air? Andrew: That same observer, who we earlier imagined, might feel, not just a watchful, but was it a malevolent presence? No. Not quite malevolent, but somehow not of this world. James: All ships have personalities, and those personalities are shaped and changed by their captain and their crew, but at birth, they are invested by only two things. The men who built her and the wood she is constructed from.   Andrew: Once upon a time, in a far off land, where a warm rain falls for much of the day, for much of the year, and many exotic animals make their homes, and the forest is alive with the squawks of birds, and the ribbitting of frogs, and the hissing of snakes and other wildlife… there stood a tree. A mighty hardwood tree, towering over all the others. James: It had been there so long, that it had seen not only generations of creatures and birds come and go, but it had also seen the gradual rise of the forest around it, and indeed, deep within its rings, it still bore the memories of the open plain. Andrew: Ah, the time of the open plain. The tree was one of the few remaining witnesses of the period in history, when humans has first descended from the trees, walked on the grounds, and formed their earliest tribes. James: In its branches and whorls, in its trunk and its bark, were encoded the history of not only the human race, but so many other species that it had seen rise and sometimes fall before it. Andrew: Owing to its long life, the tree possessed a deep wisdom that few others were able to obtain, through years of reflection and adversity. Many human shamans and magic men and women had come to worship at the tree, and to draw strength from its wisdom and from its magical power. James: For generations, the savviest traders would come and eat under the tree, hoping that its wisdom would somehow filter into them, and help them be better in the world. Andrew: Now the tree stood tall and proud. Its history rooted deeply inside it. And it knew that a change was about to come. James: The animals and birds were gradually being driven out of the forest, and indeed the forest itself, was being felled one tree at a time. Andrew: And then, the fateful day dawned when the foresters came for the mystical tree itself, and began to hack their little axes into its bark, and slowly cut out an enormous wedge from its base, until it fell — bringing down with it many smaller trees, and other parts of the canopy, so that it too could, in its turn, be packed up, chopped down into planks, shipped off, and sold to European merchants. James: In the shed of the shipyard, Sea Sprite lay waiting, and dreamed of revenge. I'm James, and I'm here with Andrew. These stories were recorded without advanced planning, and then lightly edited for the discerning listener. Join us next time for more Totally Made Up Tales.   Andrew: Muster Mister Coster. Pester Lester, test… James: No, I think when we pester Lester, you need to move on to something else, don't you? Andrew: Oh, okay. James: Well, I don't think there's a third one with pester Lester. Andrew: Oh, I don't know why in my head, it was gonna go pester Lester, test a sister. But, that was maybe a bit… James: Yeah, that wasn't gonna happen. I would not have guessed that. Andrew: But, okay. So, pester Lester. I'll just keep "test a sister" for myself. James: Okay.

Another episode of tales at sea. Following on from the mysterious tales of the Dark Gentleman, we find another curious passenger on board…although will they turn out to be any less disturbing to the crew? Music: Creepy — Bensound.com.   Andrew: Here are some Totally Made Up Tales, brought to you by the magic of the internet. This week: The Stowaway. James: Martin, the First Mate, thought he knew everything about this ship, as First Mates really ought to. Andrew: It was not the largest ship the world had ever seen, but nevertheless it contained many nooks and crannies and corners that men who had served on it across journeys of several months had still not managed to explore. James: Martin, however, knew them all. But something was not quite right. Andrew: There was a strange energy on board the ship, that was quite different to the masculine peace that settled aboard the boat once the shore was safely left behind. James: It reminded him of the one or two times when they'd transported families from Southampton across to the New World looking for a new life. Andrew: It was not as strange as the time when the famous occultist traveled with them and disappeared halfway across the ocean, but it was still something not quite right. James: Martin didn't like it when things weren't quite right, it upset the smooth running of the ship and it made the men grumble, and that was one of the worst things to contend with. Andrew: He decided that he would determine for himself whether there was anything untoward going on, on the ship, but he would do it in a subtle and determined manner. James: He drew up a schedule where he could regularly walk every turn and every corner of every deck, both above and below. Andrew: He began his exploration and very soon began to have an even more acute sense that there was something either just ahead of him or just behind him, but it was as if, whenever he turned his head, the thing it was that was following him or that he was following — and he could not be sure which it was — had disappeared, and he was left once more alone. James: He had first had the sense a day or two out of port, and it continued for a full week, gradually making him more and more frustrated, until one day, Timothy, the old cook, came to him. Andrew: Timothy was a grumpy man, perpetually red in the face with irritation, and missing his right leg. He had adapted his kitchen galley successfully so that he could navigate his way around, but in all other areas of the deck he moved on traditional sailor's wooden crutches. James: He came to Martin with a complaint about theft. Andrew: An entire barrel of biscuits, which he had been intending to use later that week, had disappeared from the kitchen, lock, stock, and barrel. James: Martin knew that none of the men would have tried to secrete an entire barrel anywhere else about the ship, it was a ridiculous and foolhardy notion that you could even get away with it, and so he continued his pacing about the decks until he discovered the barrel, now empty, in one of the smaller holds. Andrew: Scattered on the floor around the barrel here and there were biscuity crumbs. James: Martin spent some time checking the rest of the hold, looking behind the crates and boxes, and underneath the tarpaulins, but he could not find any indication, other than the barrel and the crumbs, that anything was amiss. Andrew: Later that day, in the evening, he sat down with the Captain for dinner, and the Captain turned to him with his customary question and said, "Well then, First Mate, what are the news?" James: He recounted how Timothy had come to him and his investigation and what he'd discovered, and the Captain looked at him with suspicion crossing his face, "Have you felt a presence onboard ship?" he asked. Andrew: "Well sir, as it happens," Martin replied, "I have felt a rather different atmosphere on the ship than usual… it has seemed that there has been something here." "What do you make of… this?" said the Captain. He opened the draw of his work desk and took out a piece of paper covered in a strange childish scrawl, and laid it out in front of the First Mate. James: "Was that? It looks like it was drawn by a child, sir." Andrew: "Yes, it could be a child or possibly a madman, or I'm not entirely sure. I dismissed it entirely of course, read it through for me." James: "I can't make it out at all, sir. It doesn't seem to be written in English, or indeed any other language as I recognise." Andrew: "Yes, I thought that," said the Captain. "But here, look, when you hold it up to a mirror, now try." James: "Oh my word," said Martin. "You're right. It's a diary." Andrew: "Yes, that's right. A page from a diary. A diary that's been kept while on this ship. I found it fluttering along the passage outside the door to the hold." James: "Do you really think so sir? We have a stowaway?" Andrew: "I think we should consider the possibility. Nothing has been quite right on this ship since the time that mysterious man disappeared after saving us from pirates, and I wonder if the forces of the occult have returned to haunt us." James: "I shall organise the men to do a thorough inspection, sir. I'm sure we will catch them." And indeed Martin was sure that he would catch the stowaway. Andrew: Duly assembled, the men set out in groups of two around the various passages of the ship in search of the mysterious diary writer. James: Creeping down the passageways, hunting through the holds, peering into the dark corners, the men gradually covered every inch of the ship. Andrew: Each pair in their turn, returned from their searching to the main deck to report to the First Mate, and came back empty handed. Not a sign, not a scrap, not the slightest clue as to the writer of the diary had been found. James: Two by two, Martin ticked them off in his head until there were five pairs still out, then four, then three, then two. The last pair that had gone down into the holds below reported that they could see nothing out of the ordinary, and he was just wondering how the other pair was getting along when the sound of a struggle came from the cabins that they had been searching. Andrew: The cries and thuds muffled by the several layers of decking nevertheless could be heard and stirred an immediate call to action in the First Mate. He grabbed two of the pairs nearest him, his trustiest men, and set off down the hatches to go and investigate for himself. James: He burst in, the men hard behind him, on an amazing scene. Andrew: Inside the passengers' cabin, standing quietly and unassumingly in the centre of the passenger cabin was a small elfin faced girl with close cropped hair, beaming at them with her hands on her hips. Lying on the ground of the cabin in front of her were the two burly sailors, out for the count. James: A thought flashed through Martin's mind, wondering how on each how such a small child had managed to overcome such large men, but he was too well trained to voice this concern. "Seize her!" he cried. Andrew: The men who had come down with him and to whom his order was addressed looked at the girl, looked at their fallen comrades, looked nervously at each other, and hesitated upon the threshold. "Didn't you hear me, men?" said the First Mate, "in and seize her!" James: Greg looked at Harry, and Harry looked at Greg, and neither of them wanted to be the one to make the first move. So Martin reached forward and grabbed the girl by the scruff of the neck. Andrew: At once, she burst into tears, and paying no heed to her bawling, Martin dragged her through the passageway, dragged her up onto the deck, into the Captain's cabin, where he threw her roughly to her knees in front of the ship's commander. James: "Good work, Martin," said the Captain. "And what are you, eh?" Andrew: The little girl looked at him, sobbing, wide eyed, and said, "oh please sir, please, have mercy on me." James: Martin nudged her with his foot. "Captain asked you a question," he said. Andrew: "Oh, oh, I am ..." The girl took a deep breath in and looked directly at the Captain imploringly and said, "I am but a poor child, sir. My father was a sailor of many years standing and spent his life at sea and one day in a tragic accident was killed when his ship caught fire. My mother was unable to support herself, me and my brother, and my brother signed up to sail to the New World in the Navy and I decided that the only way forward for me was to follow him and so I ended up here on the first ship I was told was sailing to the New World and I hid in the hold." James: The Captain looked at her sternly. "I cannot just let stowaways use my ship as free transport between the continents." He said. "We cannot throw you overboard, we're in the middle of the sea, but if you are to remain here, you must work to earn your keep." Andrew: "We have no use for you on deck, this is man's work requiring a man's strength, but the kitchen is short of a boy, you shall serve there for the remainder of the voyage. Go, at once. You will be directed by Timothy the cook." James: And so Martin took her down to the galley, and introduced her to Timothy, and Timothy immediately put her to work scrubbing the Brodie stove to keep it clean or at least as clean as Timothy deemed necessary for basic sanitary food production purposes. Andrew: With a dedication and an application and a thoroughness that seemed uncharacteristic for someone that looked outwardly so delicate, the little girl scrubbed at the stove, scrubbed and polished and shined. Bucket after bucket of dirty water was emptied over the rail into the sea, until the Brodie stove was as good as new. She turned to the cook and said, "sir, I have scrubbed the stove. What would you have me do next?" Tim looked at her and said, "sir? I'll have no sir in my kitchen! I'm Tim the cook, and what's your name?" James: In a small voice, Elsie introduced herself and told her story of how she had come to be on the boat. In return, Timothy gave her a history of the vessel, including some of the rare goods that they had transported and the confusing and perplexing tale of the Master of the Dark Arts, who had recently bought passage with them to the New World. Andrew: Over the days that followed, Tim and Elsie built up an extraordinary rapport. The cook, who was usually one of the grumpiest and least sociable fellows aboard the ship, had taken a shine to this little girl, and she to him. The atmosphere in the kitchen changed from one of shouting and swearing to one of laughter and camaraderie, and the quality of the food rose remarkably as a result, raising the morale of the rest of the crew. James: Over dinner one night at the Captain's table, the Second Mate, Will, turned to the First Mate, Martin, and mentioned sotte voce that perhaps they should have a stowaway on every voyage. Andrew: They laughed, looking at their empty plates wiped clean by freshly baked bread, when suddenly they were interrupted by a cry from the lookout tower. "Ship ahoy!" James: Coming onto the deck, the Captain looked at the lookout, who was pointing hard astern. Behind, somewhere in the darkness, there was a light. Andrew: A half a mile off or so it seemed, there was a ship shaped object bobbing backwards and forwards with the motion of the waves with an eerie glow that seemed almost otherworldly. James: Slowly, the shadowy shape was gaining on them. Andrew: The Captain summoned the crew to their action stations, called for the sails to be hoisted full up, and observed the mysterious shape still gaining on them. James: The faster they went, the faster it pursued. As the spectre came closer, the lanterns from their own ship, and the light inside it, gradually made the shape clearer. Andrew: The First Mate turned to the Second Mate and, furrowing his brow, said, "this is going to sound like a very strange thing to say, but does that look to you like a ship made out of smoke?" James: "Not any ship," said the Captain. "That is the ship that we saw burn to the waterline." And it was true, the superstructure looked identical, the rigging, the position of the masts and sails. It was the pirate ship that had chased them so recently. Andrew: And as it came closer, the mysterious glow that had revealed it when it was at a distance to the lookout resolved into the flickering embers of the final burning pieces of wood floating on the water underneath the smoky shape. James: "Can we even fight that, sir?" asked the Second Mate. Andrew: "Do we need to fight it, sir?" said the First Mate. "What's its intention? It's just smoke." James: "It's evil," said the Captain. "Prepare the cannon." Andrew: "How do you know it's evil, sir?" said Will. James: "I just have a feeling," said the Captain. "The feeling that evil has been dogging us ever since that ship burned." Andrew: The cannon trundled forward on its heavy wheels to the ship's rail and was being loaded by the men responsible for it. They turned to the Captain and said, "Ready to fire, sir", and the Captain said, "Very well, fire at —" But before he could finish the command, a small tug on his elbow revealed that Elsie had come up to the deck and was looking at him with a serious face. "Please sir," she said, "don't fire on the vessel, it's me that it's come for. Please let me go and speak to it." James: Agog, the Captain let her pass. Elsie walked right up to the rail and held her hand out towards the ship that was now only a few dozen feet away. Andrew: Out of the swirling mass of smoke that made up the shape of the ship, with its amorphous and shifting edge, there seemed to solidify an additional shape of a man standing opposite Elsie, face to face, where the rail of that ship would be if it had a rail, and it seemed to that an arm came out from his smoky body and extended across the water and gently, gently, gently made its dark tendrily way to her hand until it touched it. James: As soon as it did, the smoky ship started to dissolve and waft away on the fresh breeze coming in from the ocean behind it. "Daddy," she called out gently. And in response, a deep thrumming sound seemed to make the word "Elsie" from across the water. Andrew: With the contact between the two having been made, the form of the smoke ship dissolved and it became once more the mists that roll over the seas at night and ceased to have any shape or solidity. James: And as it dissolved, so too did Elsie's form gradually fade away until the Captain, the First and Second Mate and the crew members could see plain through her. Andrew: As she was on the verge of disappearing before their very eyes, she turned looking at the crew in turn and taking them all in with her penetrating gaze, finally her eyes rested on the Captain and she said, "thank you" — and vanished. There came from the hatch leading down to the galley a sobbing which caused the First Mate to turn and there to his surprise he saw Tim with his face buried in his cook's apron, uncharacteristically emotional. James: The crew were quiet for the rest of the journey, less banter and less grumbling than usual. In the Captain's cabin, a number of hushed conversations over dinner attempted to discern just what Elsie had been and where she had gone — but without coming to any conclusions. Andrew: The only thing that everybody could agree on was that the quality of the food had improved, and from that day forward it remained the best on the high seas.

Andrew L. Schmidt is a Director of Trollhunter (DreamWorks Animation). With a 20-year experience in the industry, he has a long list of credits to his name: The Iron Giant, Monsters, Inc; Finding Nemo, The Incredibles, Ratatouille and many more. Andrew has worked at studios like Amblimation, DreamWorks, Warner Brothers and Pixar. Guillermo del Toro's Trollhunters is his first directing credit.   For complete show notes visit http://www.allanmckay.com/76/   Andrew L. Schmidt on IMDB: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2112570/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1 Trollhunters on IMDb: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1734135/ Andrew's talk at IAMAG Master Class: https://vimeo.com/ondemand/iamagmasterclasses17/ Andrew Schmidt quoted in the New Yorker's article The Fun House: Life at Pixar: http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2011/05/16/the-fun-factory   Episode 76 - Interview with Andrew L. Schmidt NOTES     [-1:21:11] Hey! This is Allan. Just a quick thing to check out: www.vfxrates.com. This is a website that I created to solve a massive problem that we all have: What should we be charging? This is the giant mystery that we all have and most people feel very uncomfortable talking about is what we should charge as a freelance rate. And the worst part is when we go apply for a job and if we ask for too much, we risk alienating the employer and never getting that call back. Whereas we play it safe and ask too little, we not only get taken advantage of, but on top of that, we leave a lot of money on the table, which potentially over a span of a few years, can add up to 10's of thousands of dollars.   [-1:20:32] So this is chance for you to go to the website www.vfxrates.com. Put in bits of information, like your city, your experience, your discipline, software, little things that are important, to figuring out what you should be charging as your base rate when you're talking to an employer. This is based on a lot of experience, but more importantly, it's based on the braintrust of the industry experts from different fields that we've pulled together to collect a very accurate way to generate what you should be charging.   [-1:20:00] The best part is not just what you should be charging -- but what you could be charging by tweaking a few things: how you present yourself, building a brand, learning to negotiate better. Also, there are factors like building an irresistible reel, learning to approach employers the correct way; learning how to network. I want to share all of this information for free! Go to www.vfxrates.com -- and find out what you should be charging for your hourly VFX rate.   [-1:19:31] Alright, welcome to a brand new Episode. It is with Andrew Schmidt who is a good buddy of mine. I've known him for three years. We met at the very first IAMAG Master Class in Paris. Andrew is a super great guy. I was really excited to do this because Andrew has a vast amount of experience within the industry at DreamWorks, [also at] Pixar for quite some years. Before that he worked on projects like one of my favorite movies The Iron Giant, Prince of Egypt. What I've loved is that each year that I've attended the IAMAG Master Class, Andrew's talks have been some of my favorite because they have so much more substance. Usually, they take you on a bit of a journey through his career, his insights, but more importantly, a lot of the life lessons he's learned on his journey. I thought it would be really great to talk to him because not only is he able to talk about his humble beginnings and how he got started but also about some of the transitions he's experienced recently.   [-1:18:03] In case I haven't mentioned it yet, he is one of the directors of Guillermo del Toro's Trollhunters for DreamWorks Animation. He's also worked on some of the amazing classics that we all love like The Incredibles, Finding Nemo; Monsters, Inc.,; Up and on, and on, and on. We also talked about Family Guy because he contributed to its Season 1. We talk about a lot of stuff. I knew this would be a killer!   [-1:17:29] One thing that I will mention is that the audio quality on this Episode isn't the greatest, and I apologize for that. However, what I recommend to you is to not focus of the level of quality of the audio -- but focus on the level of quality of the content! I always take pride in having great quality to my Episodes.   [-1:16:53] If you enjoy this talk, I believe you can get Andrew's IAMAG Master Class talk. I'll leave a link if you want to access that. I think it's $10. And of course, in the show notes, you can find more information about him: www.allanmckay.com/76.   [-1:16:31] Allan: Do you want to give a bit of a background, how you found your passion for animation?   Andrew: Yeah. I am not one of those people who watched cartoons thinking that's what I want to do. I never studied it in school. My interest was in film and adventures: Frankenstein, Dracula. I wanted to get into visual effects. And that lead to a small college in Michigan. I didn't do well academically in the beginning. And that lead to taking some art classes. That was in my late teens, early 20s. They had a fine arts program there, so I studied fine arts. I started taking film classes, matte painting and things like that. Touched on some animation. That was just the beginning.   I had a dear friend who had gone abroad. She was traveling in Scotland and came across a 2D studio which was starting called Amblimation, which was a Steven Spielberg studio. So I finished college with a visual arts degree. I did construction for a year. Then Jamie Bolio called saying, “Hey, I'm in London. I'm working at a studio here and I'm looking for people.” So I sent in my live drawing portfolio. So I packed two suitcases and moved to London and started working at A Amblimation.   [-1:13:29] That studio folded into DreamWorks. A bunch of people moved to LA and formed DreamWorks. That's how I ended up in Los Angeles, back in '96.   [-1:13:14] Allan: I've been doing a little of bit of 3D. I think I started doing my first big project in '96. Such a long time ago! I love that. You were okay at Amblimation. That's where a lot of the animators came from [at DreamWorks]. I'm just kind of curious, what's the hierarchy like when it comes to in-betweeners and key framers? Back then, if you were more of an in-betweener, how many key framers were typically in the studio? Because typically, these days, a lot of them get outsourced.   Andrew: Yeah. There was typically a team for a character and a supervisor. So there was a supervising animator and several other animators. They handled the bulk of the work. I don't know, maybe [there were] 5-6 in-betweeners.   [-1:11:31] Allan: Initially, for you to supply your live drawing portfolio, was it pretty easy to get your foot in the door that way? Or was it more luck? Let's say for anyone else who was applying, what were the key things that got you in? Obviously, talent would be one of them.   Andrew: I think it's a little bit of everything. It's not going to be one thing. My live drawing portfolio was pretty strong. Also, this was at the time there some films [were doing really well]. So they were really looking for people from all over. So there was the luck of that. Then there was me, on top of being prepared, being persistent. And then there was knowing someone in the studio. He could say, “I know this guy. He's pretty good.” So there were few different things.   [-1:10:05] Allan: And I think that you had a plan. Half the time, it comes down to that. Especially in animation! Especially back when things were booming. Getting some mainstream feature animation, with key players like Disney producing all the content. You never did any short films early on in your career, did you?   Andrew: No. I admire people who have done that. But I didn't. I don't know why. I've been in the industry and working non-stop soon after I got in.   [-1:09:16] Allan: That's a good problem to have! What is your opinion: Do you think it's a good idea for those starting a career to look into doing short films, as a way to build [it]? So not necessarily for the sake of passion but more because this is something that would help establish them?   Andrew: In my personal opinion, I think so, yes. I don't know what Pixar's hiring practices are now. I can talk about what they used to be. That's what impresses me now: You have to show them some professional work or student work that's quite strong. The level of dedication that it takes to do that -- it's really impressive.   [-1:08:08] Allan: I think you're right. From the hiring standpoint, it shows that they're able to go through an entire production, wear many hats, and figure out what their strengths are. I definitely gives complete transparency about who they are and what they can do.   Andrew: You can even tell if they're a strong storyteller.   [-1:07:23] Allan: Cool! This is such an open-ended question: What do you think the industry is like these days, compared to back then? What are some of the big difference you found, how much digital animation has changed from '95 (which is Toy Story and that was a big establishment). Obviously, it's boomed so much and changed so much over the years. How do you think it compares to now?   Andrew: Some of the talent now is incredible! Just at a student reel level, it's amazing how [talented] some people are! But that's a good question. I was a junior artist back then.   [-1:06:30] Allan: I'll say this, you're right. You go to CG Talk or Art Station a few years ago and the stuff that people are putting out there as a student reel is depressing for me. It's just like, “Holy crap!” When we were starting out, we would have, like, POV-Ray and these really crappy, difficult to use programs. These days, you can open the package and get the feel for it pretty quickly. Back then, you'd have to render something just to see what it would look like.   Animation, in my opinion, is such an oversaturated industry. And because of that, when you're applying for work, you're going to have to find some ways to stand out. Otherwise, you're going to get lost in the noise of so many talented people. Earlier on, it was quite difficult to find where there was work. Obviously, now there is quite a lot of work. So that's the advantage.   Andrew: Yeah. I think you make a really good point. There are some drastic changes. Nowadays, just a demo could look fantastic.   [-1:04:58] Allan: Touching on that subject, are there any major misconceptions that people have in their head. Like using the software packages that are the best and if you are not using those, you're not going to do as well. Or, you have to go to school to get a job in the industry. Whatever kind of BS that people typically think is the way, and it's completely opposite.   Andrew: It's the person behind the camera who's getting the shot. Obviously, they use some tools to get the shot.   [-1:04:08] Allan: There is a pretty famous story about Stephen King doing a Q&A after a presentation. Someone raised their hand and asked, “What pen do you write with?” Do you have any advice for people starting out? Ways to make themselves stand out?   Andrew: I think there is something to be said -- one of the things that I've discovered while at Pixar -- is finding your strength and building your reel with that strength: to a certain type of acting, or action shots, things like that. Back at Pixar, people had the breadth of knowledge and experience I haven't had. You just need to have a talent. You need to be good at something. You need to keep finding your weaknesses and try to strengthen [in those areas].   I didn't understand a lot about storytelling, so I took a course: about writing and building a scene. My art background was in fine arts. Then I started doing animation which is illustration. I didn't know anything about illustration, so I took some courses to fill in those gaps. I think that's something that you can do. You don't need to be a jack of all trades. But if you're trying to build a career, you're going to need a lot of bricks.   [-1:01:31] Allan: I think that's a very valuable advice. Lately, it's been coming up a lot. I'm going to segue to a Tony Robbins' conversation I heard the other day about growth and reciprocity; self growing and giving back. A lot of people learn a lot and they switch off: I've got my bag of tricks. And that's where they stay. The ones who actually succeed, go through this ping-pong effect of growing then giving back [through] teaching ([which] is a form of processing information). Then growing again. If you keep looking for the next level, you stay hungry.   Andrew: I was thinking about the Michael Caine book. He talked about it. What we do as artists, we're in a community, collecting things from other artists. But it's a community. A community is not about taking things from other people. There is certain amount of sharing you need to do as well.   [-59:40] Allan: Absolutely! Looking at surrounding areas, I came up with a slightly tacky term: Your Trifecta. In other words, the three areas that compliment what you do the closest. If you do animation, you might want to look into comedy writing, acting, other areas. That's exactly it. With effects, we say it's scripting, lighting and compositing.   Andrew: Maybe life drawing to understand motion.   Allan: I even feel that with your career, it's better to be at the bottom of the barrel. You have buddies who pump you up and tell you how great you are. I'd rather people around people who push me up.   Andrew: That's what it's about. There is a certain glass ceiling. The people are great, the projects are great. I just felt like I need to be out there. You're not going to grow if you don't push against your comfort zone. Sometimes, you just need to take a beating, figure out what you did wrong and not repeat the mistakes. You are not going to grow unless you get out there.   [-56:25] Allan: I was watching one of Anthony Buordain's shows. He was back in San Francisco because he was finishing his Jiu-Jitsu training. Or it was BJJ. He decided to do a few episodes in that area. For you, you just decided you wanted to try boxing? How did that come about to be? I think it's really important for you to have an inkling for something different.   Andrew: I've done martial arts throughout my life. I was a big Bruce Lee fan. A lot of that was from sitting at the computer a lot of the time. It was about this complacency in life and my career. I didn't want to [hit fifty] and be out of shape. I'm not quite sure what drew me to boxing. I guess I've always been interested in it, but didn't have the balls to go out and do it. I found a club that wasn't hardcore. I didn't want to take too many blows to my head. But part of that was about fear and facing that fear. And how I feel after I come out facing something I don't enjoy to do. And after a while, the tension of fear goes away and you begin to enjoy yourself. You push yourself in ways you didn't expect.   [-53:31] Allan: Were there any differences you've noticed like clarity of thinking or feeling more pushed at work, more energy?   Andrew: Well, I mean, I definitely got in shape. But there is also this mentality of this energy you get. You feel like you've accomplished something. Maybe it's an ego thing. Things that bothered me, that worried me, why not just do it. It shuts down the voice in my head: “You can't do that. You'll never be good at that.” It's easy to listen to that voice. Nothing bad is going to happen. It's not that “nothing bad is going to happen”. Nothing is going to happen! That's not a way to live a life.   [-52:00] Allan: I guess it's a psychological wall that artists and entrepreneurs must face. You're the one taking risks. Psychologically, you're trained to stay with what's safe. Anytime a great opportunity comes up, you might be excited but bit by bit you start convincing yourself to stay safe. Everyone I consider successful, every time I ask if there was a place of risk, when everything in your life starts changing -- everyone gets a smile on their face because they can relate to that. For you, were there any massive breaks, where you struggled a bit but then grew into a new place.   Andrew: Pixar definitely! It was heaven. It's a great place to learn and explore and it's very safe. I learned so much there. And I have friends there and I miss them! But then I was getting hungry. I think complacency is death to an artist. I was missing feeling challenged. I felt like a had a certain level of skills and I really wanted to put them to work. I was lucky that I didn't have kids, so I wasn't restricted financially. Someone gave me a really great advice: You need to find a pull, something that's going to get you to the other side, not just a push.   That's where luck stepped in. Rodrigo Blaas who's been at Pixar for quite a while. He did a short film called Alma about a little girl and a doll short. Because of that film, Rodrigo got contacted by [Guillermo] del Toro. [Then] he asked me to go work with him. We jumped at the opportunity. He left Pixar to go to DreamWorks. That was my pull: It was my chance to work on something edgy, different stuff than what Pixar does. And I had a chance to direct! They were putting faith in me. I've directed some commercials. There was a chance I could've failed, but I couldn't pass it up. I left a very high paying job with bonuses. I took a pretty hefty pay cut, just to move in Los Angeles. But I found the work much more fulfilling, much more challenging.   [-45:58] Allan: What was going through your mind at that time? I imagine it was pretty emotional.   Andrew: Something like, “WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING?!” Something like that.   Allan: Yeah. There is no undo button for decisions like that. Was there a moment you decided it was the right move?   Andrew: That was part of the thing that made make the move: I never had any doubt! I had some apprehension, I had some doubt. There was some nervousness about it. It was going to be a great project.   [-45:13] Allan: We'll talk about DreamWorks in a moment. But I'd love to talk about some of the previous projects you've done. Prior to Pixar, you worked on Iron Giant. That was a classic and an important film.   Andrew: I finished Prince of Egypt and I was preparing to work on The Road to El Dorado. There was some, I don't know, some resistance. I thought I had a decent reel. But a friend who was working on Iron Giant called me up, “Hey, man. You want to do this film?” I got a chance to become an animator. That was another chance for me to work on something that really pushed me. I was able to get some good scenes to animate and make some good connections.   [-42:25] Allan: I have to say, I had no idea you worked on Family Guy. What was that experience like?   Andrew: It was bizarre and I enjoyed it too! The first season was interesting. At the time, the animation was getting sent to Korea to get animated. I'm guessing it's easier at this time. It was fun.   [-41:28] Allan: Going on to Pixar, it's a pretty monumental part of anyone's work history. What was it like when you initially approached them? Because they've just finished Toy Story. Monsters, Inc was their next project, right?   Andrew: It's so long ago, I'm trying to place it. I think Monsters, Inc was their third film, that's when I came on. Also because I worked with Brad, he knew my work. I had my third rejection letter then I got a call from Brett Varon I sent some of my stuff. One thing I've learned sometimes “no” from a studio doesn't mean “no”. The door is not open right now, but keep trying. I knocked again and this time the door opened. I didn't have any CG experience. [In] Prince of Egypt, I has some. I went through a 10-week training program. It took me about three years to feel good about CG.   [-38:44] Allan: Yeah, what was it like for you to go from not having any CG experience at all to going into a whole new world? Once you learn one or two packages, you know all of them. For you, how intimidating was it?   Andrew: It was confidence shaking. I mean, I really felt I was going to be fired. Pixar has a different mentality than any different studio. It just shakes your skill when you feel like your skills have reached a certain level but then there is a whole new skill. “I know I can do better than this! How do I do that?” But everyone else is struggling, also going through the same thing.   [-37:04] Allan: And you said it took you three years to feel like you got it?   Andrew: Yeah.   Allan: During that time, was there a lot of friction?   Andrew: I had many, many days of frustration.   [-36:23] Allan: I think that's such a critical thing when you get those rejection letters, no doesn't mean you aren't good enough. It means keep trying. For me, it means that I just need to keep getting better. Even when I had that persistence, there were times I was going to give up. If anything, it's an endurance test for this industry. Because if you're going to quit --  you're just not right for this industry. This is a career, it's not a job.   Andrew: You're looking to build and grow and that takes persistence. The first thing that hits you is: “I'm not good enough. They don't want me.” It brings up all that doubt. Sometimes it helps if the studio gives you some advice. Pixar used to do that.   [-34:08] Allan: That's a good point. Were there any mentors that you've had around you? I feel that you can still get so much from those relationships. Are there people you look to for inspiration.   Andrew: Oh, yeah! Kristof Serrand, early on. Trying animation, I remember I'd bring some work and he'd just flip through it and throw it into the trashcan. It was painful. He was just being honest: You can do better. He didn't just dismiss me. He gave me pointers.   [-32:30] Allan: One thing you mentioned is working abroad. You're so well traveled. I think it's a critical thing. It recalibrates you. What's your opinion? How impactful is it on artists to travel and work in other cultures / countries?   Andrew: I think it's vital. It's vital for human beings to learn about cultures and stories. When I went to Amblimation, it was multi-cultured. People of different nationalities and it was an eye opening experience. You learn how different everybody is, but how everyone is pretty much the same. We have the same motivations and desires. We realize we can relate to each other. We can learn to communicate better. Communication is what we do. We communicate an idea to put it on the screen.   [-29:12] Allan: I think working in countries where your native language isn't spoken, you learn how to communicate. You've got to start how you can say something and how it can be misunderstood. It alienates you and adapt. You grow as a human being.   Andrew:  You're enriching yourself.   [-27:53] Allan: We've both read Creativity, Inc. It was a fascinating book to read. That did get me excited to learn more about the culture of Pixar. I remember Digital Domain let of a thousand people after Titanic was done in 1996. It reinforces the mentality that this is a service-based industry. You are supplying a service. Pixar is one the most profitable companies on the planet and they're making their own content. ILM was a service providing industry. With you, guys, having that more family oriented mindset is really great. And that also means that every time the project is over, you don't lose what you've learned when the new team gets built. It's frustrating because you have to learn the same mistakes over and over and over.   Andrew: Yeah, when you work with people for a long time, you learn their strengths, you learn their weaknesses, where they need to grow, where they see you can grow. There is something about it that's more efficient. I think it makes for better storytelling to keep people longer.   [-25:39] Allan: What do you think were some of the things you took from one of the leading animation studios in the world? Were there a lot of things that carved out who you are? I love the story of the braintrust. You've got a director but you also have a support team that isn't going to tread on your toes; but they're there to help your vision be as strong as you can be. What was some of the stuff you took after that experience?   Andrew: Ah, well, a lot of memories, of course, and friendships. Stayed in touch with a lot of people. Trollhunters is getting a lot of attention for its visual quality because it's a tv show. A lot of that comes from Rodrigo and myself. He's the showrunner and has done a lot of the shots. He wants to get good quality up there, not sell ourselves short. I can't stand that “It's good enough” mentality. I learned about getting good people around you, good team, and getting out of their way and allowing them to do what they do best. And giving them that support. You get a lot of friction jobs where people try to stop you from doing your best. Sometimes, the nature of production interferes with people getting stuff done. Pixar was about removing those roadblocks, so that creative people could do what they really do best.   Allan: Take pride in their work.   Andrew: Take pride in their work, and go the extra mile to get the ownership of what they are doing.   [-22:36] Allan: That's always been my philosophy. Once the project is done, you can't change it. Even for the crappiest tv commercials I've done, I'll see stuff and be like, “Oh! They used the wrong element in comp!” Or they decided that would do. And I've gone through a phase too. It's only in the last six years that I've gotten the passion back. Once it's up there, you can never go back. It's part of history. Especially, when it's a project that's going to affect people.   Andrew: It's better when people care about what they're doing. When they care, they put extra effort into it. I would get myself to care about it.   [-20:40] Allan: With Trollhunters, you've been tied to that project for a while. I like the fact that whenever we've hung out, things have changed drastically every time. Three years ago, you were at Pixar but thinking about other options. The next time, you were working at DreamWorks. For you now, having spent two years on the project, how do you feel now? What are some of the challenges you're going through?   Andrew: It's been great! I've learned so much! Yeah, constantly learning. I find that I am challenged. I get to use a lot of the skills that I've developed in writing, acting, animation, storytelling. I've never been admittedly a great decision maker. As a director, you've got no choice. You have to make decisions and there is a hundred of them. You have to get rid of the fear that you would be making a wrong choice, because chances are, you will. You have to learn to live with it, learn from it, correct it or let it go. It's been a great learning process for me. I don't work directly with Guillermo, he comes through and gives me some notes occasionally. I learn from my friend Rodrigo about camera, staging, composition. I view it as a chance to go to a directing school.   [-17:48] Allan: Why go to a directing school, if you can learn on the job? That's great. With your team, what is it like having such a fresh new team of people to work on something as ambitious as this? Again, it's Netflix.   Andrew: It's been a great experience. There is a certain excitement about the project. So people are pushing themselves to come up with great ideas. I like to keep those channels open. I work really closely with my editor Graham Fisher. From the beginning, I didn't think I knew what the process would be like. I've established the grammar for it from DreamWorks. It's not a dictatorship. It's a team effort. And I think it makes the project more fun because everyone is in on it. It's a small team, really. We have a small director team. But it's not a huge crew, so everyone is involved in everything.   [-15:29] Allan: Yeah, I like that. When you have small teams, nothing gets lost in conversation. You're in constant communication.   Andrew: And you can chat with someone quickly.   Allan: What are some of the challenges on a project like this?   Andrew: For me, it was switching from features, with big budgets, to tv which has much smaller budgets. And much more demanding schedule. And not just for one episode. When you finish one episode, there is another one after that. So you can't get bogged down. It will throw the whole thing off. You're juggling six or seven episodes at a time: reviewing the script, script analysis, getting ready to shoot it, reviewing animation. You're jam-packed back to back and trying to make decisions that are smart but also economical.   [-13:39] Allan: I see Ron Perlman is doing a voice for one of the characters. That doesn't surprise me at all. How well has it been received so far? The first season has been out for while.   Andrew: It's been received well. Netflix doesn't have numbers. They just have a general idea. Twitter has been exploding. The IMDb reviews have been great.   [-12:49] Allan: Who are all the directors besides yourself?   Andrew: Elaine Bogan, Rodrigo Blaas, Johane Matte.   Allan: In general what's coming for you? Obviously, you're going to be speaking in Paris pretty soon. What other stuff do you have coming up, other than getting into street fights and starting your own Fightclub.   Andrew: Don't talk about Fightclub. That's rule number one. We are buried in season two for Trollhunters. Definitely looking forward to Paris!   [-12:02] Allan: What's your talk going to be on? Your first talk was on deconstructing a lot of great performances. I found that to be really original. The last talk was relaxed. But I loved that you could talk about your experience at Brick Lane, Pixar, then throw in some Bruce Lee in there as well. Everything you had to say was so relevant.   Andrew: This year will be on experience as a first-time director. Just that transition from my comfort zone to being very uncomfortable, learning lessons the hard way. A lot of the stuff I've talked about here.   [-10:17] Allan: I'm really looking forward to catching up. I think your talk is going to be amazing.   Andrew: I hope I can see [your talk]. We have to leave Sunday. That's the other problem with working on television: getting time off.   [-8:41] Allan: I'm excited just because there are so many awesome people coming this year. Neil Blevins will be there. He's bringing Kat [Evans]. I've been wanting to have her on the Podcast. She's such a ballbuster. She's in a male dominated industry but doesn't take crap. And she's really opinionated, so I think she'd have so much to say. Ryan Church, Dan Roarty, Mike Blum, Ash Thorp. Just in general, this time is going to be great! I'm psyched. I'm hoping to still be in LA, at least once a month. I want to drop by DreamWorks, when I do I'll let you know I'm in the building.   Andrew: Please do.   Allan: I'll see you in a few weeks. The audio is a bit iffy, but I'll try to make it work. Do you have a personal website?   Andrew: I do not. It's another thing I've got to do a bit: Do a bit of self-promotion.   [-5:11] Allan: I'm curious, is that something you want to do, establish your presence as a director?   Andrew: I think so.   Allan: It's a critical part. I'd be happy to help any way that I can.   That is it. Again, I apologize for the audio quality but I hope you were still able to pull some diamonds in the rough from this Episode. I want to thank Andrew again. I personally found this talk to be really inspiring.   If you want information on Andrew's links or the talk he gave at IAMAG Master Class, go to www.allanmckay.com/76.   I'll have another Episode coming out next week. I'll leave it to be a surprise. Also, I've started doing a lot of Facebook streams. I do a lot of career intensives online, but these are more off-the-cuff. So, to be a part of that, you need to follow my public Facebook page. I'll leave a link for that as well.   I'll be back with a new Episode next week. Until then -- rock on!

In episode 6, we finish the story of the Rosewood Unicorn, along with meeting Theresa who runs a comforting bookshop, and seeing what happens when the Dean Drops In. Music: Creepy – Bensound.com.   James: Here are some totally made-up tales brought to you by the magic of the internet.     We start with the Dean Drops In.   Andrew: The head librarian looked up from her desk at the sound of a knock of the door of her wood panelled office.   James: Perhaps, she thought, it was her assistant with the soup for lunch. But, no, standing in the doorway was the Dean of the University.   Andrew: "May, I come in?" he said in his patrician drawl that he had spent years perfecting.   James: "Of course, Dean," she said drawing a chair for him on the other side of her immense desk.   Andrew: "I wondered if I might speak to you about the little subject of books?" He said.   James: "Ah, yes, books," said the head librarian, "they are indeed in my remit."   Andrew: "Yes," he said, "I was wondering if that is really the most efficient way for us to work? Do you think we might re-visit the whole topic?"   James: The head librarian thought for a moment. This was a familiar pattern with the Dean, walking in and sparring with members of his faculty, threatening to take away certain responsibilities or authority. But this, she felt, was going further.   Andrew: Books had always been at the heart of University life and at the heart life and at the heart of learning and culture and damn if she was going to lose them.   James: Although the library contained a large number of things that were not by any stretch of the imagination books, she felt that reducing herself to only looking after those would inevitably see the library become part of some other faculty, such as languages or perhaps the modern hearts.   Andrew: She turned over in her mind the best way to conquer this threat to her domain. What could she do?   James: Smiling gently at the Dean, she walked around the large desk flicking open a small drawer as she went and withdrawing a jewel-encrusted dagger.   Andrew: This she delicately plunged into his back behind the middle of the rib cage, up into his heart and withdrew it wiping it on her handkerchief.   James: "Chelsea," she called for her assistant, "file this under D for dead things."     And now: Part II of the Rosewood Unicorn.   Andrew: The day dawned bright and fair. There was not a cloud in the sky. It was the 17th birthday of the Princess Caroline.   James: She rose early and was dressed in the most sumptuous clothes by her maids and prepared for the full day of celebration before her.   Andrew: In the morning she toured around the capital city meeting, greeting, receiving birthday wishes from the loyal subjects of the king among whom she was so popular.   James: At lunch there was a great banquet with many of the princes from surrounding kingdoms vying for her hand in marriage, not knowing, for the king had never disclosed to anyone the deal he had made with the Man in Black.   Andrew: The afternoon she had for recreation, for it was her birthday after all. She went for a pleasant walk in the gardens and played a game of tennis.   James: And just before the evening meal, as she had for so many years, she played briefly with the unicorn toy that she had been given so many years ago. Although it was no longer alive, she still loved it with a strange passion from her past.   Andrew: After a busy day, her birthday ended with a simple meal for the most immediate members of the royal family in their private dining room. They had a delicious, but not extravagant meal, and had come to the end of it.   James: There was a knock at the door to the royal suit.   Andrew: "Who could that be?" said the Queen. "This is a very late hour for us to be interrupted by an urgent message or an embassy from a foreign power."   James: The King signalled to one of the servants to open the door and inquire who it was at this late hour.   Andrew: The double doors were flung open and framed in silhouette against the flickering candlelight from the corridor behind, was the Man in Black.   James: "I have come," he said, "as we agreed."   Andrew: Well, there ensued a rather complicated conversation. The King had a great deal of explaining to do. The Queen was unhappy. Princess Caroline was unhappy. Tears were shed, voices were raised, but the Man in Black was implacable and the King was a man of his word. There was no way around it other than Princess Caroline should immediately pack her things and leave.   James: Tearfully she looked around her rooms deciding what she would take with her. There was no need, perhaps, for many of the things that she normally liked to wear or many of the books that she usually read from. She packed a small bag, taking with her only a couple changes of clothing and the unicorn.   Andrew: The Man in Black had a fine black horse, strong and sturdy waiting in the courtyard, steam rising from his nostrils as it stamped its hooves and shook its head. "Climb aboard," he said.   James: She swing herself up behind him. The bag pressed between the two of them. Almost as a wall between her and, as she thought of him, her captor.   Andrew: They rode through the night. Across lands that the princess had never seen before and had barely known existed. Across forests and fields, mountains, valleys, they forded rivers, until at length they came to the far off land where the Man in Black ruled.   James: A dark, sinister castle thrust itself out of the naked rock. Towers twisting towards the sky. Around it a dark and menacing forest stretched as far as the eyes could see. As the Man rode his horse, Caroline behind him, down the single, narrow path through the forest, she, tired from their journey, gradually slipped off to sleep.   Andrew: The next day, the princes awoke. At first, she was aware of being in a comfortable bed so familiar to the one that she had slept in for many years. But soon she realised that, no, she was not in the bed chamber that she had grown up in, but she was in a different castle in a different land starting a new life.   James: She crept out of her bedroom and started to explore around the castle very soon finding the main hall where the Man in Black was taking breakfast.   Andrew: "Ha-ha, my dear, you are awake," he said with great charm and courtesy. "We'll you join me for breakfast? I have all the goods that one could possibly want to eat."   James: As he spoke, she realised that she was hungry and sat down to eat some of the most delicious fruits and meats that she had ever tasted.   Andrew: The spread was vast and she ate her fill and was sitting in quiet contentment when her husband spoke.   James: "Now you have come to live here you will, of course, have all of the benefits of my country. The best food, the most delicious wine, the most compliant servants; however, I do regret that you will never be able to go back and see your family again. That is just the way that these things work, I'm afraid."   Andrew: The princess was heartbroken. She said nothing and left the table and returned to her room, tears brimming in her eyes.   James: She threw herself down upon the bed attempting to smother her tears in the pillow. Before long she felt a touch on her arm. She started, looking down her arm she noticed the unicorn and it tossed its head.   Andrew: "What on earth," she exclaimed looking down at the toy from her childhood. "But all those years ago you, surely you, I remember ..."   James: It nudged her with its horn gently and then cantered up to her face.   Andrew: "Oh, you've come back to me just at the moment which I needed a friend. Thank you, thank you, thank you," she said, kissing it on its back.   James: That night Caroline waited until she was certain that all in the castle were asleep before taking the unicorn in her pocket and creeping down to the great hall.   Andrew: There, she gathered up the things that she would need for a long journey and made her way outside through the kitchens.   James: The circle of the trees of the dark forest surrounded the castle and she could not see the path. So thinking that any direction was as good as any other, she picked one and started walking.   Andrew: The forest at night was strange and eerie but she was a confident young woman and with her trusty unicorn and her provisions, she strolled ahead without fear.   James: She walked through the night and as the first hints of dawn started to be visible through the dark trees, she finally came across a clearing and in the centre of the clearing was the castle.   Andrew: She was bitterly disappointed. "Oh, I must have taken a wrong turning somewhere or followed a path that came around. What a foolish mistake to make." But she realised that it would be futile to try and leave again during the daytime when she could be seen by everyone in the castle and she returned to the great hall for breakfast.   James: The following night she tried again. Once more as dawn started to creep across the land, she found herself back at the castle.   Andrew: She made several attempts over the following nights to escape. Each time taking a different path, recording the path that she had gone down by making a mark on the barks of the trees, but each time it brought her back to the castle at daybreak. Then while sitting down to breakfast the Man in Black addressed her.   James: "I told you, but you did not believe me. There is no way that you can leave this place and see your family again."   Andrew: "And indeed why would you want to? Here you will have a life of complete contentment. We have a peaceful land where we are unchallenged in our rule. You will have a life of ease and joy. You should accustom yourself to it and not seek to escape."   James: Caroline ran from the table up to her room and threw herself down on the bed in despair.   Andrew: "Oh, what shall I do?" she said to the unicorn as they played together. "What shall I do? It is comfortable here and life could be easy and it is impossible to escape, but I oh I miss my family so. What shall I do?"   James: That night she did not try to escape and as she lay sleeping the unicorn thought.   Andrew: The unicorn was a sensitive beast and hated to see the mistress who it loved in so much pain and discomfort. "How can I help?" it thought. "How can I help her to escape?"   James: The unicorn understood the magic that controlled the forest and the routes through it. The unicorn made of rosewood from the great tree that stood at the centre of the forest, was well aware of exactly how the Man in Black's magic constrained the Princes Caroline. The unicorn knew that this particular spell was powerful and woven through the very fabric of the castle and the forest itself and that only one thing could cause it to fail.   Andrew: The unicorn, a magical animal, understood the ways of the occult and knew that the only way to break the spell and to transport the princess back to her childhood home where she so longed to go, was to burn a part of the magical forest that formed that the impenetrable boundary around the castle along with an item from the desired destination of the traveler. The unicorn rooted around through the possessions that the princess had brought with her from her home and found one of the scarves that had been given to her in her childhood.   James: Now all of the unicorn had to do was to burn this with part of the rosewood heart of the forest. But now the Princess Caroline never went outside. She always wanted to stay within her room and play and the unicorn could not deny her that.   Andrew: Although it bided its time hoping for an opportunity to be taken outside so that it could collect something from the forest, the days turned into weeks, the weeks turned into months and the princess was beginning to waste away with sadness and despair.   James: Seeing her condition, the unicorn knew that it could not wait and that its chance to get outside into the forest might never appear. It took the scarf, wrapped it around itself and when the princess was not looking, cantered into the fireplace where it burned completely.   Andrew: The day dawned bright and fair. There was not a cloud in the sky. It was the seventh birthday of the Princess Caroline.   James: She woke excited for the day's festivities ahead and as she always did, she started her day by playing with the delicate and beautiful swan that she had been given for Christmas. Made by the finest toy maker in the land.   Andrew: The door of her bedroom opened and her kindly aunt and uncle beamed down on her. "Come my child, let us have a celebratory breakfast on this your special day. A happy birthday to our beloved child and the most special girl in all the land."   Alternating: Theresa was a pleasant lady who ran the bookshop in town. Every time she wanted a breath of fresh air, she would walk outside into the square and sit on a stone bench beside the fountain. One day while perambulating, she encountered a small boy who was without his parents. He looked lost and sad. "Are you okay?" she asked. "No," he said, "I've lost my mummy." Theresa took him by the hand and went inside the bookshop. She picked him a book to read and made some tea. As he read to himself, she patted him on the head. He sighed contentedly. "I'm not scared any more."   James: I've been James and I'm here with Andrew. These stories were recorded without advanced planning and lightly edited for the discerning listener. Join us next time for more totally made up tales.  

New post from The eCommerceFuel Blog: Bill and Andrew resume last week's conversation to finish looking at how current trends in technology will have an impact on the future of our economy. Although these shifts may be a few years away, understanding the how these change can impact your business will help you prepare and not be caught off guard. This week, we speculate on what will disappear and just how these shifts impact the economy and thus your livelihood. The predictions we propose have the potential to revolutionize the way we interact with the economy. Tune into this final segment of our two-part conversation to find out how you can get prepared. Subscribe:  iTunes | Stitcher (With your host Andrew Youderian of eCommerceFuel.com and Bill D'Alessandro of Rebel CEO.) Andrew: Welcome to the eCommerceFuel Podcast, the show dedicated to helping high six and seven-figure entrepreneurs build amazing online companies and incredible lives. I'm your host and fellow eCommerce entrepreneur, Andrew Youderian. Hey, guys. It's Andrew here. Welcome to the eCommerceFuel Podcast. Thanks so much for tuning in today. And today, we're going to be continuing our discussion that Bill D'Alessandro and I...that we started last week, specifically talking about the massive world-shifting changes that are going to be headed your way in the coming years. And last week, specifically, we talked about robots and artificial intelligence. We talked about widespread virtual reality. We talked about negative interest rates and an extremely low-interest-rate environment for the coming future. And that's where we left it off. So what to dive in today is particularly about things that are going to be disappearing in the future that are going to have a big change on your life. So I'll go ahead and we'll pick it up right from where we left off last week. Enjoy! The Two Party System So moving into things that will be disappearing, the first one on here, and this is something that's really interesting, Bill, because we have different opinions on this. The two-party system. You and I were prepping, and we were like, "We've got to make sure that we do not turn this into just a political mock-fest," because I think you and I could go off for hours about what a nightmare elections... And apologies to people outside the U.S. This will be U.S.-centric. But most people would agree it's been a very unorthodox election campaign season. And I think this could be the final straw to break the two-party system, but you don't. And I'll let you maybe make the argument first. Bill: I would like you to make the argument first, and then I will rebut because I think... Andrew: Oh. Bill: Well, because I have not heard your angle on this, so I would like to hear it. Andrew: I think the two-party system in the U.S., of course, Democrats and Republicans, I feel like has been... It's kind of anachronism. And you have, I think, a lot of people our age, Bill. Not just like, you know, late 20s or early 30s. But going out 10 plus years in both sides, you have a very large portion of the population that is far more centrist, people that are maybe economically conservative but socially liberal, people that don't identify with the very extreme fringes of the Democratic and the Republican Parties. And for a long time, I think, traditionally, the two-party systems, they weren't quite as extreme, and so maybe that larger or kind of social norms were a little bit more divided. But I think that the parties historically weren't as extreme, and so people were able to relate to them more. But I think in the last 10 to 15 years, they've gotten so extreme on both sides. You have a lot of people that don't feel like they don't belong to any party at all. And I think this is the first election where you have just open rebellion in the Republican Party, and to a much lesser degree, in the Democratic Party.

New post from The eCommerceFuel Blog: Bill and Andrew pull out their crystal balls to peer into the future and predict how technology will usher in massive shifts in the economy. These shifts may be 5 - 20 or more years away, but they can potentially have a huge impact on your business. From self-driving cars to negative interest rates, large pools of employment sectors could face the chopping block as our society embraces the next generation of technological advances. Tune in to join the conversation so you can prepare your business for a future that may already be upon us in this two part series. Subscribe:  iTunes | Stitcher (With your host Andrew Youderian of eCommerceFuel.com and Bill D'Alessandro of Rebel CEO.) Andrew: Welcome to the eCommerceFuel podcast, the show dedicated to helping high six and seven-figure entrepreneurs build amazing online companies and incredible lives. I'm your host and fellow ecommerce entrepreneur, Andrew Youderian. Hey guys, it's Andrew here and welcome to the eCommerceFuel podcast. Thanks so much for tuning in today's episode. Today on the show, gonna be...do something a little bit different. Obviously, we focus on ecommerce and business here but from time to time, like to mix things up, and want to talk about massive world shifting changes headed your way from kind of a macrolevel, both because it's an interesting to talk about and also potentially because, you know, could have an impact on your business. So here to kinda peer into the crystal ball with me, mister Bill D'Alessandro. Bill, how you doing buddy? Bill: I'm doing very well and I did bring my crystal ball today. I'm excited. Andrew: Oh yeah, you got one of those crystal ball, or are we talking, like, the magic eight ball you shake and look into it? Bill: Yup, yup, exactly. After every question you ask me, I'm just gonna tell you what the eight ball says. Andrew: It's interesting, the original notes that we put together here, we had to par down because we had so many different things that we're like, "This is gonna be, like, an hour and a half discussion." Not that that necessarily means that we'd be any more accurate. I don't know, I think it's pretty safe to say, maybe everyone throughout history's already said this, but I feel like there's like a lotta change on the horizon. Bill: I think there is too and the topics you have picked for us today are all topics upon which I have very strong opinions. So this should be a good, good episode. Andrew: And there's a couple that I thought we'd be in agreement on and was not the case. So hopefully we can keep it civil for people, what do you think? Bill: I think we can try, yes. We're just screaming at each other by the end. Robots Will Run the World Andrew: Yeah. All right, let's dive into it. So Bill, the first prediction that we have, thing that's coming, and I'm gonna break these down into things that are coming and things that are disappearing in terms of massive shifts and kinda the world in general. And the first one is a pretty broad category and it encompassed a lot things that I thought about, that you thought about, and we kinda talked about it. It's really what I'm gonna call it, the robot in AI revolution in terms of just robots, but smart computers, so much automation. Automation has been a big part of the last, you know, 100 years one way or another, but just the rate at which it's gonna accelerate, the rate at which it's going to really make a lot of jobs and occupations that we have now completely unfeasible. It's got some really huge implications on in terms of just the convenience side of things, the efficiency side, but also in terms of social aspects of what do you do in a world where, you know, a good percentage of people, they don't have the skills to be meaningfully employed. So that's kind of a high level thing, a lot that we can unpack about that,

Welcome to LPLE, "Let's Practice Listening in English!" Andrew explains what microbrew beers are, and why we enjoy them so much. Jesse and Andrew also talk about nanobrews and homebrews, which are beers that we can make at home on our own, and our favorite microbeer store/bar called Chucks! Join in the conversation! Follow us on Twitter and Facebook to ask us questions about English conversation and meet other English language learners all over the world. Website: dialog.fm/lple iTunes: bit.ly/LPLEiTunes Facebook: bit.ly/LPLEFacebook Twitter: bit.ly/LPLETwitter Patreon: bit.ly/LPLEPatreon   TRANSCRIPT  Intro [Jesse]: Hi everyone. My name is Jesse Robbins, and welcome to LPLE from Dialogue FM. We're the podcast that lets you practice listening in English. We speak English slowly and clearly so that you can follow along and understand native English speakers more easily. I'm excited to help you improve your English listening skills, as well as help you learn new vocabulary, grammar, and idioms commonly heard and conversation among native English speakers. If you want to practice listening in English, then we invite you to join our conversation. Jesse: Hey, Andrew. Andrew: Hey, Jesse. Jesse: You just came back from Vancouver BC in Canada. Andrew: I did, yes. Jesse: And during that time, it sounded like you had your fair share of microbrews. Andrew: I did, actually, which is good news for me because I'm a huge fan of beers that are made in a style that is not the common Budweiser, light lager style of the type that you can buy in almost every country. Jesse: One of the things I want to talk about in this episode is microbrews because microbrews is something that you and I really enjoy. Andrew: Yes, and I think people in our city, in Seattle, are actually very fond of this style of beer in general. Jesse: So, let's start with what is a microbrew. How would you define a microbrew? Andrew: Sure. I will start by defining a macrobrew, which is to say large companies like InBev, Anheuser-Busch, SABMiller, etc., who make very popular beers that are made in very large batches and distributed very widely. You might have heard of Budweiser, or Heineken, or Miller, or Corona; these are beers that are made by very large companies, they are made to taste the same wherever you go, wherever you get them, and they're very popular. But, they are also very plain to taste because they have to appeal to a lot of different people. Think about, like, for example, Coca-Cola, which is made everywhere, and always stays the same, and everyone likes it. If you like unique flavors or different flavors of soda, you might have to look for a smaller company that makes a more interesting soda, but doesn't sell it everywhere; and, microbrews are the same idea with beer. They are small companies--or even people doing this is as a hobby--that are making beers that have interesting and new flavors, that don't follow the same recipe rules that a Budweiser or a Corona might, and it gives you many different and interesting options to try when you go to a restaurant or to a bar in a place that carries them. And, the Pacific Northwest, which includes Vancouver, British Columbia in Canada, and also Seattle, Washington and Portland, Oregon in the United States, are all cities that have been very supportive of microbrews coming up and being sold right alongside the big names like Budweiser. Jesse: "Macro" means "big," "micro" means "small," and the word "brew" is another word for "beer." Andrew: Ah, "brewing" is the process that is used to make beer, much like "baking" is the process used to make bread. Jesse: So, microbrews are pretty popular in Vancouver BC, Seattle, Washington, Portland, Oregon in the Pacific Northwest, and also parts of California, as well. Andrew: Oh, yes. Definitely. The entire west coast of North America tends to make very flavorful, very hoppy beers that are not the normal style that is made in the big companies. Other towns have taken this up; Austin, Texas is known for it, Denver and Boulder Colorado make a lot of beers, and also many cities on the East Coast, although I have not been to them to try their own local flavors. Jesse: What are the main ingredients in a beer? When you think about making your own beer, and you, Andrew, have actually made your own beer before... Andrew: Yes. Jesse: ...What are the main ingredients that you can control in a beer? Andrew: Beer is actually very simple in terms of the number of ingredients. All you need is grain, and water, and hops. And, hops are a flowering vine whose bud, the flower part of the plant, contains a lot of very strongly flavored oils that almost make a kind of tea with the water and the grain. Most beers are made with barley, but you can also find them made with corn and rice; so if you buy a Budweiser, it is made mostly with rice as the grain. All you're doing is extracting the sugars from the grain and then using yeast to process the sugar into alcohol. And, what makes the flavor of a beer unique is the combination of the type of yeast, the type of grain, and the number and types of hop that you put into the mash, which is the yeast and grain mixture. Jesse: Now, the word "extraction" means "to take out," right? Andrew: Yes. Jesse: So, you're trying to take out the sugar from the rice, or the corn, or the... Andrew: Barley. Jesse: ...or the barley. Andrew: Or wheat, sometimes. Jesse: Now, isn't the water also really important? The quality of the water? Andrew: It is definitely true that some places have more flavorful water than others. So, depending on where your water is from, it might have more sulfur in it, it might be more clear, or in some places like big cities such as Los Angeles, California the water is very processed and cleaned and doesn't have a very crisp or clear flavor, and that definitely impacts the flavor of the beer, unless you treat the water or clean it; and, so it depends on what the brewery does to prepare the water before the beer is made. Jesse: When I went to Vietnam a couple of months ago, one of the things I was really excited about was that in Ho Chi Minh City they have a microbrewery. Andrew: One... Jesse: One, which is a big step for many reasons. One, it means that there are more people in Vietnam who are exploring different tastes. The popular beers in Vietnam are Heineken, Tiger, Saigon Beer, Hanoi Beer, and these are macrobrews, right? Andrew: Yes. Jesse: They're made in large quantities and sold throughout the country, if not the entire region of Southeast Asia. Andrew: Right, and they also have the same characteristics of most of those more popular, more broadly distributed beers, and that is that they are very mild in flavor and in taste, and so there is a lot of room to make things more interesting with a microbrew where you can use more specific ingredients to get something interesting. Jesse: There was a small microbrew bar in District 2 that I went to. Now, their selection was very small--that's fine. They had about 10 or 12 different kinds of microbrew, and I had the chance to try about three. I was really excited because, again, you and I really appreciate microbrews. I think the biggest challenge that microbrews have in Vietnam, especially at a bar, is being able to serve them cold. Now it's of course very hot in Vietnam, and you want your beers to remain as cold as possible. Andrew: Yes. Jesse: However, when you order a pint of a microbrew in Vietnam, it gets warm really quickly... Andrew: Right. Jesse: ...and the common practice in Vietnam is to put ice in your beer... Andrew: Oh no... Jesse: But, you don't do that with microbrews; that ruins everything about how the beer was made and the flavor, right? Andrew: It definitely changes the balance and makes the flavor weaker. And, much like watering down tea or watering down coffee makes it taste less rich and less full, the same thing happens with beer. And, especially beer because beer is carbonated--they're the fizzy bubbles in it--and when you put the ice in it removes most of that carbonation, and the bubbles actually have a flavor to them. The carbon dioxide tastes a bit bitter, and it adds to the overall taste, and when you put the ice in, it gets more watery, less flavorful, and less bitter, all at the same time, which never works out well. Jesse: One of the things I really love about our city is that we can legally make our own beer. Andrew: Yes. Jesse: We can't sell it, right? But, we can make it and share it with friends. Andrew: Right, it's called "home brewing" or "homebrew." Jesse: Right, so we have macrobrew, microbrew, we also have nanobrew, and then we have homebrew. Andrew: Right. Jesse: Again, the homebrew cannot be sold to anybody. Macro, micro, and nano can. Andrew: And, nanobrew..."nano" just means "very small," whereas "micro" means "small," so it's an even smaller brewery. And, really the only difference between a nano brewery and a home brewery is that they have gotten the permission to sell the beer that they make, as well as be making it in a small establishment, or even a kitchen. Jesse: How many times have you make beer at your house? Andrew: Oh gosh. Probably 10-20 times. Jesse: And, what is your favorite style of beer that you make at your house? Andrew: I almost always make IPAs, which stands for India Pale Ale. It is a type of recipe for beer that uses a lot of very strong hops in it. And the reason for that is that originally the hops were added to the beer because it keeps the beer safe to drink even if the water has gone bad. So, on long ship voyages, the British would bring beer along for the trip, but it would go bad unless they added extra hops. And, so this style of beer was sent on the ships that were going all the way across the world to India, the very long trips where the normal beer would go bad. That style has been taken over by the western United States and western Canada, and they have made it even more strong and even more flavorful, and the hops they use are even richer and have even more interesting tastes to them. And, that has become the main style that is made here and then my very favorite style, as well. Jesse: In Seattle, we have a lot of microbreweries, and we even have a few nanobreweries, as well. Andrew: Oh, many. Yes. Jesse: Our favorite store to go to is a place called Chucks. Andrew: Yes. Jesse: And at Chucks they have fifty different kinds of microbrews on tap. Andrew: Right, and they're different every time because they bring one batch in, and as soon as it's empty they bring another one to replace it. So, there's always something new to try. Jesse: Right. If you ever visit Seattle, and for the listening audience I hope you do, when you come to Seattle, if you like beer, or even if you're curious about different kinds of beer, talk to us. We will happily take you to Chucks. Andrew: I can't wait to see you. Outro [Jesse]: Thank you for listening to this episode of LPLE, Let's Practice Listening in English, from Dialog.FM. Subscribe to LPLE on iTunes to hear the latest episodes, or listen to past episodes on our website, Dialog.FM. That's d-i-a-l-o-g-dot-f-m. If you have questions or comments about English, or if you would like for us to use a word, grammar, or idiom in our conversation so you can learn how to use it correctly, we would love to hear from you on Twitter at @dialogdotfm or Facebook at facebook.com/dialogFM.

Panel Andrew Madsen (twitter github blog) Pete Hodgson (twitter github blog) Rod Schmidt (twitter github infiniteNIL) Ben Scheirman (twitter github blog NSSreencast) Charles Max Wood (twitter github Teach Me To Code Rails Ramp Up) Discussion 01:33 - The Apple Developer Portal 01:57 - When the portal goes down 05:35 - What the Portal Does iBooks System Status 07:20 - Certificates and Provisioning Profiles Wildcard Certificate nomad cupertino shenzhen venice 17:50 - Managing the Device List 21:45 - Clients and Developer Accounts 23:00 - NDA 27:04 - Submitting Apps to the App Store 29:04 - iTunes Connect 34:24 - Rejecting Apps 37:46 - Apps on Particular Devices Version Requirements 44:05 - Entitlements 44:44 - TSIs Picks FontAwesome-for-iOS (Rod) When to use -retainCount? (Andrew) Strange Loop (Pete) Boxen (Pete) Homebrew (Pete) The Changelog (Pete) Brian Gorby - AppResigner: Easily re-sign iOS apps (Ben) Apple - Support - iPhone - Enterprise (Ben) Average App Store Review Times (Ben) Brian Stevens / Data Porters (Chuck) Canvas by Instructure (Chuck) Wistia (Chuck) Next Week Performance Tuning with Brandon Alexander Transcript [This show is sponsored by The Pragmatic Studio. The Pragmatic Studio has been teaching iOS development since November of 2008. They have a 4-day hands-on course where you'll learn all the tools, APIs, and techniques to build iOS Apps with confidence and understand how all the pieces work together. They have two courses coming up: the first one is in July, from the 22nd - 25th, in Western Virginia, and you can get early registration up through June 21st; you can also sign up for their August course, and that's August 26th - 29th in Denver, Colorado, and you can get early registration through July 26th. If you want a private course for teams of 5 developers or more, you can also sign up on their website at pragmaticstudio.com.] CHUCK: Hey everybody and welcome to Episode 16 of the iPhreaks Show! This week on our panel, we have Andrew Madsen. ANDREW: Hi from Salt Lake City! CHUCK: Pete Hodgson. PETE: Hello from San Francisco where BART is not striking here. BEN: [Chuckles] CHUCK: Where what is not striking? BEN: BART. CHUCK: BART. PETE: Bay Area Rapid Transit. CHUCK: Rod! ROD: Hello from Salt Lake City! CHUCK: And we also have Ben Scheirman. BEN: Hello from Houston where it's 180 degrees! [Laughter] CHUCK: I'm Charles Max Wood from DevChat.tv. Real quickly, one of the reasons that I do this show is so that I can get work. So if you need backend work for your iPhone application and you're interested in using Ruby on Rails, I am available for hire! Alright, well let's get to the show! This week, we were talking about and having a discussion on the "Apple Developer Portal", when it's working. [Chuckles] ANDREW: Which is, sort of mostly right now. BEN: Yeah. We'll be back soon [laughs]. CHUCK: Yup. PETE: Except not soon. [Laughter] PETE: For some definition to see. CHUCK: Yeah. ANDREW: Oh, man! BEN: Yeah. They have a very loose definition of soon, I think. PETE: [Chuckles] BEN: Do we want to start off by just talking about what happened there? I don't know if anybody has any like behind the scenes info on the portal being down, but from what I heard, they detected some sort of hack attempt. And then shortly there after, this, I think he was an Israeli hacker, or I shouldn't say hacker, security researcher, came out and said -- CHUCK: [Laughs] BEN: "I successfully exploited this thing, and I told you about it and filed a radar. I just wanted to see how deep it went," so he pulled out, I don't remember how many users' contact info from the Dev Portal, and he posted a little screencast on the type of data he got and the level. I don't know if that -- they seem to be related because it was like around the exact same time.

Panel Andrew Madsen (twitter github blog) Pete Hodgson (twitter github blog) Rod Schmidt (twitter github infiniteNIL) Ben Scheirman (twitter github blog NSSreencast) Charles Max Wood (twitter github Teach Me To Code Rails Ramp Up) Discussion 01:33 - The Apple Developer Portal 01:57 - When the portal goes down 05:35 - What the Portal Does iBooks System Status 07:20 - Certificates and Provisioning Profiles Wildcard Certificate nomad cupertino shenzhen venice 17:50 - Managing the Device List 21:45 - Clients and Developer Accounts 23:00 - NDA 27:04 - Submitting Apps to the App Store 29:04 - iTunes Connect 34:24 - Rejecting Apps 37:46 - Apps on Particular Devices Version Requirements 44:05 - Entitlements 44:44 - TSIs Picks FontAwesome-for-iOS (Rod) When to use -retainCount? (Andrew) Strange Loop (Pete) Boxen (Pete) Homebrew (Pete) The Changelog (Pete) Brian Gorby - AppResigner: Easily re-sign iOS apps (Ben) Apple - Support - iPhone - Enterprise (Ben) Average App Store Review Times (Ben) Brian Stevens / Data Porters (Chuck) Canvas by Instructure (Chuck) Wistia (Chuck) Next Week Performance Tuning with Brandon Alexander Transcript [This show is sponsored by The Pragmatic Studio. The Pragmatic Studio has been teaching iOS development since November of 2008. They have a 4-day hands-on course where you'll learn all the tools, APIs, and techniques to build iOS Apps with confidence and understand how all the pieces work together. They have two courses coming up: the first one is in July, from the 22nd - 25th, in Western Virginia, and you can get early registration up through June 21st; you can also sign up for their August course, and that's August 26th - 29th in Denver, Colorado, and you can get early registration through July 26th. If you want a private course for teams of 5 developers or more, you can also sign up on their website at pragmaticstudio.com.] CHUCK: Hey everybody and welcome to Episode 16 of the iPhreaks Show! This week on our panel, we have Andrew Madsen. ANDREW: Hi from Salt Lake City! CHUCK: Pete Hodgson. PETE: Hello from San Francisco where BART is not striking here. BEN: [Chuckles] CHUCK: Where what is not striking? BEN: BART. CHUCK: BART. PETE: Bay Area Rapid Transit. CHUCK: Rod! ROD: Hello from Salt Lake City! CHUCK: And we also have Ben Scheirman. BEN: Hello from Houston where it's 180 degrees! [Laughter] CHUCK: I'm Charles Max Wood from DevChat.tv. Real quickly, one of the reasons that I do this show is so that I can get work. So if you need backend work for your iPhone application and you're interested in using Ruby on Rails, I am available for hire! Alright, well let's get to the show! This week, we were talking about and having a discussion on the "Apple Developer Portal", when it's working. [Chuckles] ANDREW: Which is, sort of mostly right now. BEN: Yeah. We'll be back soon [laughs]. CHUCK: Yup. PETE: Except not soon. [Laughter] PETE: For some definition to see. CHUCK: Yeah. ANDREW: Oh, man! BEN: Yeah. They have a very loose definition of soon, I think. PETE: [Chuckles] BEN: Do we want to start off by just talking about what happened there? I don't know if anybody has any like behind the scenes info on the portal being down, but from what I heard, they detected some sort of hack attempt. And then shortly there after, this, I think he was an Israeli hacker, or I shouldn't say hacker, security researcher, came out and said -- CHUCK: [Laughs] BEN: "I successfully exploited this thing, and I told you about it and filed a radar. I just wanted to see how deep it went," so he pulled out, I don't remember how many users' contact info from the Dev Portal, and he posted a little screencast on the type of data he got and the level. I don't know if that -- they seem to be related because it was like around the exact same time.

Part 2 of this amazing story is here!In June 2016, Andrew Hundley became the FIRST juvenile lifer in Louisiana to be paroled following the U.S. Supreme Court's Miller and Montgomery decisions that prohibited the mandatory sentencing of children to life without parole. It was clear that he was not the same 15-year-old who went to prison in 1997 to the parole board who approved his release.Since his release from Angola, Andrew has earned a Masters degree in Criminology, is founder of the Louisiana Parole Project and is known in all circles of justice as the real life Andy Dufrane.Whatever side of this issue you sit, you will not want to miss this episode.In this episode Woody and Jim sit down with him for an in depth interview you are not going to believe on Bloody Angola Podcast.#BloodyAngolaPodcast #LouisianaParoleProject #AndrewHundleyLouisiana Parole Project website:https://www.paroleproject.org/Check out P2P Podcast (Penitentiaries to Penthouses) Here:https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-p2p-podcast-penitentiaries-2-penthouses/id1646270646?i=1000586120763SECOND CHANCES PART 2 TRANSCRIPTJim: Hey, everyone, and welcome back to another edition of Bloody- Woody: -Angola.Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making.Woody: The Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison.Jim: I'm Jim Chapman.Woody: I'm Woody Overton.Jim: And we're back for Part 2, Woody Overton.Woody: Part 2, Second Chances with our main man.Jim: Andrew Hundley. How are you?Andrew: I'm well.Jim: I feel like we just talked to you. [laughs]Andrew: Thanks for having me back.Woody: Yeah, [crosstalk] right. Andrew, I just want to say that it's an amazing story, y'all. You've got to go listen to Part 1. I don't think we've maybe done one or two series on Bloody Angola that-- actually series, one or two episodes that went past episode 1.Jim: The only one that we did was Archie Williams.Woody: No. Brent Miller.Jim: Yeah.Woody: So, two, you'll be the third. Thank you for being here, I really appreciate it. Y'all go back and listen to the first one if you haven't.Jim: Yes, please do.Woody: When we left off last, you were at state police barracks out at JESTC, and you gotto finish telling me how you got swung.Andrew: Yeah, I had unauthorized female visitor, to keep it PG. [laughter]Andrew: I had a female friend who visited me at the office I worked at one evening. I knew that wasn't supposed to happen. It happened. And I understand that you keep visitors off of the premises because you never know who's going to be coming out there, what they're going to be bringing out there.Jim: I ain't hating on it. I don't blame you. [laughs]Woody: [crosstalk]Andrew: [crosstalk] -I'm not the first guy to get in trouble and probably not going to be thelast guy that got into that kind of trouble. Jim: Some things are just worth it. [laughs]Woody: Everybody you see today and the rest of your life got there because two people had sex.[laughter]Andrew: But it was against the rules. They actually didn't move me immediately because my job that I had--Woody: They didn't want to release you.Andrew: I had to finish some job responsibilities. But they said, "Hey, you're going to have togo." I said, "I want to go to Angola."Jim: And wow. Before you say anything else, that's just like-- Woody: You're one of the only people ever said that--[crosstalk] Jim: Yeah, you might be the only one to utter that sentence.Andrew: Well, and I recognize and I had done enough time and met enough people who had been to Angola and who, in prison speak, were successful at Angola. They had done well. And I wanted to be a trustee. At state police barracks, I was a trustee but the only place as a lifer going if we say back into DOC, I couldn't go to DCI or Wade or Hunt or any of these other prisons [crosstalk] have to go to Angola.Jim: What year was this?Andrew: Oh, that was in 2012, 2013. Jim: So, it was post Burl Cain? Andrew: No, Burl was still there. Woody: Burl was still there.Jim: Okay.Andrew: When I first get there, I actually go to Bass. For my first couple of months, I was a cell block orderly at Bass, paying my penance. As soon as I got there, they told me, "Look, keep your nose clean, out of sight, out of mind for a couple of months, and we've got a job for you." They told me this as soon as I got there.Woody: That's really cool.Jim: Your reputation preceded you some way probably.Woody: Another unique thing about what you're saying is, I don't think people understand-- I would say you might have a better number on than me. Most people at Angola are nevergetting out, like 80% or something like that. But to go in and have to do 10 years to make trustee without a low court or high court writeup, holy shit, bro, that's almost impossible. So basically, they're telling you, "Keep your nose clean, lay low for a couple of months and you shake it out, we got a job for you," basically, you almost were like getting credit for time served already.Andrew: Right. They gave me credit. Look, I had a unique experience. Woody: Meaning, credit under the trustee program.Andrew: I used to tell people I did my time like Benjamin Button. [laughter]Jim: In reverse.Andrew: Yeah, I did my time in reverse. Most people start at Angola and they're either going to die there or there are some old timers who after they've been there for a few decades, they'll allow a transfer to a prison closer to their home if they request it, if they have space. For me, I ended at Angola and did my last few years there.Woody: I got to interrupt because I'm visual. You ask to go to Angola, and had you ever been to Angola before?Andrew: I'd been only for boxing matches. I had been there for those kind of trips.Woody: So, you're taking that ride up, or they giving you the ride up and you hit the gates and you go inside the wire the first time. Do you have any different impression? What was your impression?Andrew: I was thinking, "Oh, man, I hope I made the right decision." [laughter]Woody: Right, because this is like the Harvard of convicts.Andrew: Yeah, because I'm starting to second guess because it's like, well, if I would have gone back to the smaller prison, I was big fish in a small pond. And now, I was telling myself, "You're just another lifer here. You're going to be lost in the shuffle." But thankfully, I wasn't lost in the shuffle. Thankfully, my reputation did-- I did have a good reputation.Woody: I'm sure somebody called and gave them a heads-up and say that, "You better get your hands on this dude because he's the bomb."Andrew: I got there. You go on this review board as soon as you get there, and it's medical, mental health, security, classification, and they're trying to figure out where they're going to send you. A lot of guys will start off in a cell block, or some guys will go into medical facilities. Some guys will be under mental health observation. And never having lived at Angola but new Camp J is not the place to be.Woody: Right.Jim: Don't send me to Camp J.Andrew: The major who was on the review board is like, "Hey, I got a call about you. Let me see what they want--" He's telling pretty much everyone on the review board like, "Someone's about to make a decision where this guy's going to go. We're not going to make the decision." He gets off the phone and says, "We're sending him to Bass." And I was like, "Okay. Where is that?" He's like, "You're going to Camp J." And I'm like, "Oh, my God. I thought I'm coming here to be a trustee."Jim: You're sending me to lockdown.Andrew: And I'm going to lockdown because you go to J when guys on death row screw up. They get sent to J, to the cell blocks at J because people would rather be in their cell on death row-Woody: Absolutely.Andrew: -than be at J because J is wild. Now look, today J has been shut down for a fewyears because of talk about-- Jim: [crosstalk] -reason for that.Andrew: Look, Camp J is four cell blocks and one dorm. They have a few guys in a dorm that are cooking for the guys there. They're taking care of the place, taking care of the yard. You hear J, you assume the cell block. Just having worked in the cell blocks, these are guys with significant mental health issues.Woody: Most of them, yeah.Andrew: They're throwing feces on each other. They're throwing stuff on the guards. They're guys who've been back there so long and there's this mentality in prison, bar fighting. And you make enemies in a cell and you throw stuff on so many people. You've seen this guy, he comes out on the tier for his shower. Y'all stay up all night cursing at each other because that's just how time is done. And then, you get into it with so many people, you're back there a couple of years and they say, "Okay, it's your time to come out." Like, "Oh, no, I can't go into population because I've threw crap on so many people."What these guys don't realize is, look, all y'all have thrown crap on each other. Y'all cursed each other out, talked about threatened to kill each other. You get out, chances are, "All right, man. We're in population now, we're going to put that stuff behind us." But so many of those guys, they've developed these enemies, and then they just dig their hole deeper and deeper. There are guys who've been back there decades and refuse to come out of their cells.Jim: Damn.Woody: The listeners know, like you're talking about, to get sent to Camp J, not the dormitory, but to get housing and cell on Camp J, you had to break a rule in prison. Not just regular fist fighting. It's fighting with weapons or attacking an officer or raping someone or whatever it may be, it's a serious infraction. You don't get classified and sent to Camp J immediately, most people. You get sent to wherever, and then if you're so bad that you can't follow the major rules inside-- those rule infractions, they could be a street charge too. But if you're so bad that you can't live in the general population with the worst of the worst, or what's considered to be the worst of the worst in America, you got to send to Camp J. It's a huge mental issue. I agree with you, like 90% of that shit is mental.Andrew: They call it the Behavioral Management Unit.Woody: Yeah, right.Jim: [chuckles] That's one way to put it.Woody: You lock them up and throw away the key.Andrew: The reason that they had to shut it down was it's an old cell block, and they couldn't repair the cells. Guys would open up cells, jump on guards.Jim: Oh, my God.Andrew: [crosstalk] So, whenever they sent me, they said Bass, which is the name of the dormitory, the general population dorm for the guys that work and serve. Luckily, it was like, "No, we're sending you back here," they did me a favor because it's like, hey, they recognize, "This is a guy that's done a lot of time. We have something in mind for you. So, we're going to put you on timeout."Woody: And show you what the worst could be if you want to fuck up. Jim: Yeah.Andrew: They told me, "Give us a couple of months." Those couple of months, it's like no one else talks to me after that. I remember day 30, day 45, I'm thinking to myself, "These people told me-- they've forgotten all about me." I remember seeing the assistant warden over the camp after I'd been there about two months, said, "Hey, I don't know if you remember me," he's like, "Yeah, I remember you." "You haven't looked at me. You haven't acknowledged me. Just want to make sure." He said, "Have you hit your two months yet?" "I'll hit my two months at the end of this week." He said, "Okay, we'll see what happens." Two days after I hit my two months there, they came to me and said, "Hey, we're moving you to Camp F, and you're going to be working out on the range crew. We're going to make you the clerk on the range crew."Jim: That's awesome.Andrew: What it ended up being, obviously Camp F is the old timer camp, class A trustee. Iwas in my 30s, I was the youngest guy at Camp F. [laughter]Andrew: By like 20 years.Woody: Yeah.Andrew: The youngest guy. There may have been guys that weren't quite that much older than me. But I go back there, and I have this job and I didn't realize how great of a job they were giving me. 18,000 acres, the thing that's awesome about the range crew is you have trustees that get to leave whatever camp, leave the main prison, get outside the fence, be on the property. But the thing that's awesome about the range crew is cattle there-- on just one little spot of the prison, there's cattle from the front to the back of the prison. So, when you're on the range crew, you have access to the entire prison. When I say the entire prison, I mean the property.Jim: So, you were a cowboy?Andrew: I was a cowboy. I wasn't born a cowboy. Jim: [laughs]Andrew: I learned how to ride a horse. Learned how to take care of cattle. The cows at Angola are 2000 head of cattle, not counting the bulls and not counting, given time of the year, when mamas are dropping calves. There are actually a lot more cattle there but every cow is on state property control. They're branded, they're tagged.Woody: Oh, my God. I remember-- [crosstalk]Andrew: When John Kennedy was State Treasurer, he used to give DOC hell, "How the heck do you lose a cow?" I was a guy that if I read that in the paper, I would think the same thing, "Well, how the heck do you lose a cow?" And I learned on 18,000 acres, it's really easy to lose a cow because if a cow goes in a drainage canal and dies--Woody: Or a gator gets--[crosstalk]Andrew: You're hoping that the buzzards are going to tell you where they are. So, part of my job was to keep up with the cattle that were on state property control and to do continuing inventories, order the meds, order the vaccines, along with just general clerical responsibilities around the range.Woody: You have a brain that I don't because my entire state career every fucking year when I had to fill out these property forms and serial numbers and I hated that shit. I'd rather be kicked in the nuts than have to fill out one of those. You were doing it every day all across the whole scale.Andrew: And then, another job responsibility I had once I got the job was assisting with the management of the rodeo as it relates to the rides. In my job, I was responsible for the fall and spring rodeos, to get the riders signed up and to assign the rides. There are people who-- the stock contractor comes in. There's, obviously, Alan Barton and his crew are managing what's going on inside the arena. There are acts coming in. Security is getting the public in. There's the hobby craft. There's the concessions.But the guys that are participating, someone has to organize them, someone has to decide who's getting what ride. It's sort of interesting because that's really a high-pressure thing because everyone wants a ride and everyone wants to be on this shoot. My responsibility was being the guy that fairly distributed rides for people who signed up. In the middle of the rodeo, you'll have guys who are on a horse and then they hurt themselves, but later in the day they were supposed to be on the poker table. So, I have to keep track of that and replace them in real time.Jim: Wow. Did you have anybody helping you?Andrew: I had people that would help me, but I'm the kind of guy that- Woody: Nobody is going to do it--[crosstalk]Andrew: -nobody's going to do it as good as you.Jim: [laughs][crosstalk]Jim: Struggle with delegation. [laughs]Woody: You were the CEO of everything that state workers--Jim: Well, if you do it, it's done right. [laughs] Or if it's wrong, it's your fault. And that's important.Andrew: But I can remember people ask me often about what I'm missing. I think there'll come a point in my career where I'll move out in the country, get a piece of property and have cow because there are days when you work around cattle, you just get this gunk in your nose at the end of the day, especially when we're pushing cows, got them in a catch pen, working them, and you just get all this muck in your sinuses, I miss that. I had to be in prison to really feel this sense of purpose and enjoying-- there were times I forget I was in prison. I forget I have my-- [crosstalk]Jim: Wow. It's almost like [crosstalk] you're so involved.Andrew: -sentence because I was in nature. I was working around these animals, got run [unintelligible [00:19:15] people. I think people have this idea that brahma bulls, the meanest thing that you could come across and know a mama cow that you're pulling the baby from will run your ass over. Well, I've been run over quite a few times and been kicked by cows. So, it was a great experience for me.The other thing I should say about my experience at Angola that was totally different from everywhere else I had been. Obviously, I was an outlier everywhere else I was having a life sentence. I would see people come and go. There were a handful of lifers at Wade, a handful of lifers at DCI. But when you get to Angola, everyone has life or everyone has 50, 100 years. They're not going to do that sentence. You every once in a while got a guy that somehow ended up at Angola that's going to be going home, but that's the outlier.And I got to meet so many older guys who had been there for decades. Some of the best people I ever met with in my life, I met in prison, and they were in prison for murder. I know that the general public can't get that, or they think I must be twisted to see that. But you see who a person becomes. I'm not meeting people in their worst moment. I'm meeting people years later after they've developed, they've taken responsibility for whatever brought them to prison and they've changed their lives. So, I think that had a big impact. Frankly, seeing a lot of death at Angola, going to funerals at Angola and seeing people buried and their headstone being on the penitentiary property, it's life changing.Woody: We did an episode on the Lookout Point and the call for making-- and all that stuff, that Burl really stepped up the game on.Jim: That's exactly right.Woody: [crosstalk] -we missed an episode. My mama sent me the article afterwards. Governor Edwards, when he passed, they had them make his coffin and he was buried. But then, his wife or some family member had him dug up and cremated. But so, we did Billy Cannon's. [crosstalk]Jim: Yeah. We definitely talked about that. It'd be a good point to bring up Burl Cain brought two very, very important things to Angola, in my opinion. He brought religion and he brought education at a level no prison had ever seen in the country. Everybody makes mistakes, Burl became very powerful, and with that, there became maybe some problems. But probably the most well-known warden in the history of the country, I would say. Would you agree? Did you ever have any dealings with him?Andrew: Oh, certainly. My favorite story about Burl, and he would do this to a lot of people, you always knew Burl was the boss and Burl had the vision. If you were going to work for Burl, you were going to carry things out the way Burl wanted it done. Burl had a whiteboard in the ranch house where he would often hold court around lunch. If there was an assistant warden, staff member who had to see Burl, Burl had a convict he wanted to come see him, you'd get called up to the ranch house and he had a whiteboard. Burl used to draw a circle on the whiteboard and then put a dot in the middle of it. He'd hand you the marker and say, "That's where I am. I'm the dot. Show me where you are. Are you in the circle? Are you outside the circle?"Woody: Wow.Jim: [chuckles] That's pretty awesome.Andrew: And he would tell you, "Draw it. I want to see. Where are you?" If you'd put that dot inside the circle next to him, "So, well, let me know if you're with me, because if you're not with me, we'll draw your dot outside of the circle." I think that's a perfect encapsulation of who he is. He had a vision. He knew how he wanted to do it. Obviously, it's hard to stay in one place. He was at Angola over 20 years. That's unheard of. No one will ever be warden of the penitentiary--Woody: I know this off the record that numerous times, and actually tapped Jimmy Le Blanc to be head of the Department of Corrections, he turned it down. He believed in so much in what he was doing in Angola. When he was warden at DCI, when I started-- I trained at Angola, I think it was Camp F is where the--Jim: Yes.Woody: Yes, I slept in a dormitory there and everything, but my mom was raised on the [unintelligible [00:24:08]. So, we say Bloody Angola, the Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison. That's more of a catch-all. Certainly, it's not a nice place to be, but it's certainly not to 19--[crosstalk]Jim: '65, '64.Woody: -when they had [crosstalk] yards and shit like that. I forget the name of certificationprogram, it's a national thing run by the government. Andrew: HOST?Woody: Yeah, that certifies prison. You got to really-- Andrew: Oh, ACA.Woody: American Correctional Accreditation, something like that. But Angola was nowhere near that when Burl got there, and he did all that too.Jim: Right. Leader of men, there's no doubt about it. Now, I believe the head of the Mississippi Department of Corrections.Andrew: Correct.Woody: Most listeners don't know the Montgomery case comes out, how did you learn about it? How did you hear about it? And what happens next?Andrew: US Supreme Court actually has made a series of decisions that affected how we sentenced juveniles. I mean, it's not that long ago the first decision where they looked at adolescent brain science was Roper, and it was new science. It's sort of what everyone who was a kid or had kids, knew kids or immature kids are impulsive. And the Roper decision, that's when they said, "You can't execute a juvenile anymore." I mean, that's just in the last couple of decades that we haven't been able to execute-- The Supreme Court said, "Stop executing juveniles."Woody: I was a police officer when that came out.Andrew: And they said, "Hey, kids are different from adults, and we have to treat them different than adults." Eventually, there was the Miller decision. And all these decisions, we're in prison, we're watching the news, we're reading the newspaper, we're keeping up with it. The guys who are going down the rabbit hole, staying in the law library are telling everyone what's happening. So, we're just watching it. The Miller decision came out in 2012, and that decision said that you can't give a juvenile a mandatory life without parole sentence. Well, if you remember in the first episode, I said when my judge sentenced me, there was only one sentence.Woody: Mandatory without.Andrew: If my judge would have had an option and gave me life anyway, the Supreme Court decision wouldn't have affected me because the Supreme Court didn't say you can't give a juvenile a life without parole sentence. It said it couldn't be mandatory. The judge has to have leeway. But Louisiana and some other Southern states--Woody: They still followed it.Andrew: We're fighting it, the retroactivity, because they said, "Okay, well, this only affects new cases. It can't affect all these old cases." I actually went back to Acadia Parish in 2013 after Miller. I was fortunate my family could afford to hire an attorney for me. The judge who was there for my trial was still on the bench.Jim: Oh, wow.Andrew: He agreed for me to come back in. He said, "Now, I have an opportunity to give you a different sentence. I'm going to sentence you to life with parole, and I'm going to let the Department of Corrections figure out what that means," because there wasn't a law in the book that said what does-- life is still life in Louisiana, whether you're a juvenile or not. The parole board wouldn't schedule a parole hearing for me, obviously, because there's nothing that says that.Woody: To set the precedent.Andrew: Yeah. We're hearing from all of our attorneys that this isn't going to affect old cases. So, in January of 2016, the US Supreme Court ruled in a case called Henry Montgomery, Baton Rouge case. A black guy, he was 17 years old, when he shot an East Baton Rouge sheriff's deputy. Not to argue that case, Henry, he shot someone who happened to be a sheriff's officer. He didn't know it was a sheriff's officer, but still, he shot a sheriff's deputy, and he was held accountable and was initially given the death penalty, ended up with a life sentence. His case made it to the Supreme Court. I remember we initially thought, "Man, that's such a bad case to make it to the Supreme Court," because everyone in prison knows you don't--Jim: When it involves a police officer--Andrew: You don't commit a crime against a police officer because you're not going to getany mercy.Woody: So the listeners know, when they submit to Supreme Court, Supreme Court has a right to turn down the hearing of the case. They don't have to hear it.Andrew: Right. So, they agreed to hear it. In January of 2016, they reviewed it favorably. Henry Montgomery, what his attorneys were arguing was that Miller's retroactive, and it affects Henry and people who've already been in prison, not just new cases. The Supreme Court agreed, and it put me at the front of the line.Jim: When he says the front, the very front.Andrew: The very front. It's not because I obviously wasn't the person who served the most time. I wasn't the person who had the most certificates. I was at the front of the line because most other guys in my position, they couldn't afford to hire attorneys, and other courts didn't want to fool with it. There weren't any local judges that were looking to start resentencing people. Everyone's like, "Oh, let's wait and see what the Supreme Court does." Well, my judge looked for the-- was happy to hear when my attorney went and said, "We were going to file for a hearing for a change in sentencing." He says, "Let's set a date."Woody: I'm sure also, I know what he told you originally, but I guarantee that the judge looked at-- that you did your time, you didn't let your time do you. You totally turned your life around, or you've been on a straight and narrow other than the one time at JESTC. [chuckles]Andrew: That's true. He put all that stuff into the record, and that obviously helped me. So, when the Montgomery decision came down, my attorney petitioned the parole board and said, "You owe him a parole hearing." At that point, the state of Louisiana had not issued-- the legislature hadn't changed any laws. So, he was arguing because of what the Supreme Court said, "Because his district court already sentenced him, you have to give him a parole hearing. You can't hold the legislature's inaction against him." The parole board agreed and actually got an opinion from the attorney general's office that said I was parole eligible.I go before the parole board in June of 2016, I'll be honest with you, even though I knew I was rehabilitated, knew if I get out, I'm going to do well, I still know I committed a horrible crime. I was in my 30s. I was 34. I'm telling myself, "I'm going to be denied," and I'm preparing my family, I'm going to be denied. This is the sort of a process and every couple of years I'll be able to reapply. And in 10, 15 years, they're going to get tired of telling me no, and I'm going to come home one day. And I'm going to tell y'all, my biggest fear, I didn't say this in the first episode. My biggest fear while I was incarcerated wasn't about someone hurting me, wasn't about being raped or being stabbed or even not getting out of prison. That wasn't my biggest fear. My biggest fear and what would keep me up at night was the fear that my parents would die while I was incarcerated.Woody: Yeah, I get it.Andrew: Because I've seen men whose parents died. Mom's the last person with you. Andwhen mom goes, everyone else goes.Jim: And they had your back the whole time you were in prison.Andrew: They didn't make excuses for me, but they showed me love. They visited me.Woody: Shoutout to your folks, man.Andrew: They answered my phone calls, and my mom and dad just sustained me. I went to prison as a 15-year-old, and even although my body matured, there was part of my-- I never went off to college. I never got that first job.Woody: The growth experience.Andrew: I was emotionally dependent on my parents' love and affirmation. So much of me furthering my education and doing good things in prison was so when my parents would come and visit me, I could say, "Guess what I'm doing?"Woody: They could be proud.Andrew: I say all that to say that whenever I had the parole hearing, I prayed, and I just prayed. "I know I'm not going to make it this time, but please, God, just let me come home while my parents are still alive so then I can be there for them as they've been for me for my whole life." Luckily, that day, I have a parole hearing. Generally, they tell you after the hearing, you've been granted or you've been denied. They threw a curveball, and they said, "We want to take this under advisement. We want to think about it." I understand I was the first juvenile lifer after Montgomery with a parole hearing. The parole board generally doesn't hear at that point, murderers going up for parole.I go back to my life in prison. I tell myself, "You're going to be denied. You're going to get a letter in the mail in 30 days that said, 'You've been denied. Apply again in two years.'" I'm back on the range crew. I'm back doing my job. I'm worrying about cattle. I'm worrying about inventories. I remember it was 10:30 on Thursday, June 9th. My supervisor is a guy named Alan Barton, June 9th, 2016, his phone rings, and he answers it, and he looks at me, and I could tell whatever that the call was about, it was about me. And so, I'm wondering, "What's this about?" Nowhere did it come into my mind this has something to do with parole. And he's like, "Okay, okay, okay." He hangs up the phone, and he looks at me, and he says, "Pack your shit." In prison, when you hear, "Pack your shit," it's usually one of a couple of things, but it could also mean you're going to the cell block.Woody: Right. It could mean you're getting swung. The other one is you're going home.Andrew: You're going home. This is how much I didn't allow myself to believe I was going home. I was prepared to go home. [crosstalk] Immediately, in that split second, "What are the things--? Do they know I brought a brick of community coffee back to the dorm to get to this old timer. What do they know? I got some extra chicken out the kitchen." And he says, "You're making parole." And I was just like, "Wait. What?" He's like, "The parole board granted you, and you're releasing now." I lived at the office of the range crew at the lake house, at the hog lot, this is prison jargon. Like, 80% of my properties out there because I go back to the dorm to sleep and then come back to work and work all day. He says, "Pack your stuff," and I was like, "Man, if this is a bad message, I don't want to pack all my stuff. So, let me go to the camp and see." He's like, "I'm not bringing you back. You're going home."So, it took me going to the camp and then giving me my release papers to sign before I believed it. They said, "Do you want to call anyone?" I said, "Yeah, I want to call my mom." So, they give me the phone, I call my mom. She answers, and I said, "Hey, do you know anything about me?" She says, "Yeah, we're coming to get you." I said, "How long have you--" My mom knew one hour before I did.Woody: Wow.Andrew: My attorney called her from the parole board to say, "Hey, the parole board just called me in to say that they're granting Andrew's parole." It was great that my mom knew for an hour before I called her. She knew she was waiting on that call. My sister had just graduated medical school. My parents were packing her up, getting ready to send her off for her residency. So, just thinking, my younger sister finished medical school, they're packing her up, and at the same time, their son's releasing from prison.Jim: What a day.Andrew: I was told at 10:30. I got up that morning thinking, "I may die here. I may get out in a few years." At 10:30, they said, "You're going home today." At 04:00, I was walking out the front gate with my family.Woody: Wow. One of the few people--Jim: For the first time outside since you were 15. Woody: Outside of the gates of Angola.Andrew: Right. Packing, getting all my stuff gathered, and all these old timers and these juvenile lifers who've been there all this time are coming up to me, "We're so happy for you, man. This is awesome." I remember thinking to myself, "Man, how much grace that they have," because if I was in their shoes, I would be saying, "Why this guy?"Jim: Yeah. People try to sabotage people getting out sometimes in prison. Andrew: "This guy's only been here 19 years. Why is he getting out?" Jim: You would almost think there'd be jealousy there.Andrew: Yeah, and I'm sure there was but guys were just showing me so much love. The last two guys I talked to before I get out were two juvenile lifers. One had been in for 40 years. One had been in for 50 years.Woody: Wow.Andrew: They say, "You're going to be the guy that helps the rest of us get out." I don't think they meant literally, but like, "You're going to get out, and you're going to show that people can get second chances. Man, you could do well." I was like, "Man, I'm sorry that it's me." They're like, "No, no, man, get the hell out of here. You're going to do well." We're driving down that road that I didn't know if I'd ever leave. My sister asks me, "Well, now what?" I had all these plans on paper, but now it's like, "Oh,-Jim: Now, it's real.Andrew: -it's real." I told myself what came to me is, "I've got to find a way to help people. I've got to find a way to help these people that I've left behind." So, through that guilt of leaving my friends behind was born Louisiana Parole Project.Woody: Wow.Jim: And what a beautiful project, and we're going to get into that. I do want to say, because I sense you had a little bit of guilt with you that you were the first, and there were these people that in your mind are more deserving because they had spent longer time and all ofthat. For me, looking from the outside, I think you had a lot of-- and I don't even know if you felt this pressure, but I would have thought you would have had a lot of pressure on you because anybody who was against that ruling is watching you to wait for you to fail. "Y'all going to see. Y'all going to see, they let these guys out and watch what happens. They're going to screw up again." Wow, were you the total opposite of that, number one. Probably far exceeded even people with the best of intentions, expectations, and that's what we want to get into. But you did. You were the first, and that was great.You also were carrying a heavy burden, just like these guys told you, you're going to be the one that they use as the example. So, I'm sure in the back of the mind, they were thinking, "Be a good example because you can screw it up for all of us." [chuckles] So, you were just that. Now, I want you to tell us about your Louisiana Parole Project and what it does and the value of that for these released convicts, inmates, people.Andrew: I come home in June of 2016, I recognize-- my dad gives me a truck. I knew I couldn't go back to Eunice, Louisiana. Everyone knew me for the worst thing I did. They either loved me or hated me but there weren't opportunities there. And I wanted to go to college. Heck, I was 34 years old, getting out of prison from this life sentence, smart guy. I've already earned these credits. Testament to the prison system, I felt getting out, like, "Man, I've earned all these credits. I have to go to college." Whereas if I wouldn't have had those opportunities, I might look and go, "Damn, I'm not ready to invest four years of my life. I got to go into the job market right away." So, I enrolled for college right away. But then, I started telling people, "Man, I want to find a way to help these guys. I realize I'm coming out and with this ruling, I'm just the first. There are going to be other people coming home. How do we create opportunities for people when they come home?"I'm going to be okay because my family is going to make sure that I have opportunities to be successful. I had built a network for myself in prison that I know, "Hey, I'm going to take advantage of this network to find a good job and to hang around good people and have volunteer opportunities." The guys coming home and I had enough common sense to know that, "Hey, the first few people who come home are going to affect it for everybody. So, we need to make sure the first guys who come home are successful so that stakeholders, namely parole board, governor, judges, keep giving people chances." This was an abstract idea and literally just starting, building it out from my experience, from the experience of the first few people that came home, what did they struggle with when they first come home. And we've built a program. We're a nonprofit organization, so I had to figure out how to build a nonprofit organization, how to set it up.Jim: Not easy.Andrew: My first job was actually someone clued me into working at Pointe Coupee Detention Center. I taught pre-release at the detention center for a short time. There's a curriculum, and it's actually this curriculum I taught in the inside at Angola, at Camp F in my spare time. So, I have a job. My first paycheck goes to chartering the organization with the Secretary of State's office and the local clerk at court's office. And then, applying to the IRS for the 501(c)(3) status. All that costs money. So, I'm just figuring out the administrative part of building the organization, asking funders for money. It's the chicken before the egg. I'd say, "Hey, this is what we're going to do." Well, funders would say, "Well, what have you done?" "Well, I haven't done anything."[laughter]Jim: "That's what we need you for."Andrew: "We need the funds." "Well, come back to us whenever you've done something." A lot of volunteer work, part time, going to college. And then finally, we had a couple of funders that took a chance on us. I mean, fast forward from 2016 to today, we operate a residential reentry program in Baton Rouge. We work with people who've been convicted all over the state that are coming home, and we work with people who've done 20 years or more, because we recognize these are guys who are more likely to listen to their peers. And it's a pure mentorship program. Same concept with AA. If you're an alcoholic who's going to AA, your sponsor is going to be another alcoholic.Woody: Somebody's who been through it.Andrew: Who's been through it and so we had the same mindset. We're going to have people who've come out of prison, who've been successful mentoring other people who come out of prison. Initially, that was an odd mindset for law enforcement, for probation and parole for DOC, because their job is usually keeping ex-cons away from each other. But today, we own and operate nine transitional houses in Baton Rouge. We own these homes outright. Seven houses for men, two houses for women. When they come home from prison, we're giving them a safe, stable place to stay. We have rules, we have expectations, but some of the things, our clients have served 20, 30, 40, 50 years in prison. So, it started out with these juvenile lifers coming home. And the legislature passed a bill in 2017 that also allowed something-- some people call it 40-Year Lifers, some people call it Disco Lifers. There's a group of about 120 lifers during the 70s that had parole eligibility before the legislature in '79 made life, life without parole. There was a bill that restored parole eligibility to some of those guys.Woody: I didn't know about that.Andrew: We helped some of them get back out. Jim: Wow.Andrew: And the governor has been signing commutations. And a big part of why he's signing commutations is because we say, "Hey, if you give this person a second chance, our program is going to help them rebuild their life." He took a couple of chances on people, and he's been signing more and more commutations. He's in the last year he's in office. Last week, he signed commutations for 12 lifers. These people are going to come through our program. To date, since 2016, we've had over 370 men and women who were once serving life or de facto life sentences have gotten out of prison. I know people hearing this go, "Wait a minute, 370 lifers?" Yeah, 370 lifers and de facto lifers, people sentenced to 50 years, 99 years, 200 years have come home. The reason you haven't heard about it is because they're not going back to prison.Jim: Period.Woody: Because they had made-- [crosstalk] Jim: Yes.Andrew: Our recidivism rate is 1%.Jim: 1%, y'all. Let that sink in.Woody: But you got to give them the other side of the scale. The average just on general recidivism rate is in the 40% range.Jim: Yeah.Woody: Which means almost one out of two that get out without Andrew's program aregoing to offend again. Jim: I'm sorry. Go ahead.Andrew: I said this to y'all before we went on air. I have a unique perspective where I did time, I'm a criminal justice practitioner, and I got my master's degree in criminology. So, one thing I learned actually getting the book education is when we hear like, "Almost one out of two people return to prison," the problem is it's the same couple of guys that go back and forth, back and forth. And they actually--[crosstalk]Jim: Yeah. Quadruples the number.Woody: Regardless, take those guys out of the equation, 1% is a stupid, crazy number in agood way.Andrew: We start working with our clients before they're released.Woody: Let's do it like this. You showed a picture of two people that you picked up yesterday, tell us what the process is going to be for them, from where you start until hopefully where it is.Andrew: Sure. So, two lifers came home yesterday. One served 41 years, one served 38 years. We started meeting with them months ago when we knew they had opportunities to come home. One was given a commutation by the governor, went through the pardon process successfully. The other guy was actually resentenced by the Orleans District Attorney because it was determined that he was overincarcerated. He was someone, after reviewing his case, they decided that he was less culpable than his co-defendants and he shouldn't have got a life sentence. So, they made a deal with him. He pled guilty to time served, came home. Anyway, we started working with him and it's just how much what our organization's reputation is. We go in, ex-cons--Woody: I was going to say, you go to Angola.Andrew: Go to Angola and the warden lets us in to go and see guys and prepare because they know we're not going in to bring in contraband. We're not trying to get anyone to escape. We're trying to get people out the right way, but we've got to go and prepare them for what to expect. To be frank, I've got to go in and determine, is this someone I want to help? Not everyone who applies to be our client, we accept. We turn down a lot of people. We look at the prison record and we also read between the lines. Having done time, someone who's done time or worked at Angola--[crosstalk]Jim: Real knows real. Andrew: Real knows real. Jim: [chuckles] As they say.Andrew: We want to make sure that it's someone who's taken responsibility for their actions and addressed the things that brought them to prison and bettered themselves and they're ready to come home. People, you're different at 25 than you were at 15. You're a different person at 35. You're a different person at 45.Jim: Amen.Andrew: A lot of my clients are 60- and 70-year-old men who are taking up unnecessaryspace at Angola.Jim: If you're judged by your worst mistake you ever made, everybody would hate everybody. Everybody, stop for a second, think about the worst mistake you've ever made, and then think about if everybody knew about that if they'd hate you or strongly dislike you. People change.Andrew: We pick our clients up at the front gate of the prison when they're released. We bring them to our program. Our clients, things we all take for granted, they've never used a cell phone, they've never used a debit card, they've never paid for gas at the pump, they've probably never opened a bank account. Who has been incarcerated for decades and still has their birth certificate and their Social Security card? These people, if they came home and didn't have the support, they'd just crumble, like, "Where do I start?" And their families, many of them have outlived their families. The ones who do have families, families love them, but they don't know where to start. So, our job is to prepare people to be successful. We're not putting people up for life and giving them a place to stay. We're training people to be self-sufficient.Woody: Like a transition.Andrew: It's a transition. We want you to learn the skills you need. I give someone their first cell phone they've ever had. [crosstalk] After a week, they're going to be like a 10-year-old with the first one. So now, we got to teach you how to put the phone down. Now, we've got to teach you what workplace etiquette is. We've got to teach you that when you went to prison, what was considered flirting is considered harassment. We've got to teach you what this institutionalization that you've had, "Hey, in society, we're more accepting of different people, different ideas. You've got to let that old thinking go." A lot of guys obviously come home with skills, and now we're--Jim: Mad skills, especially trade skills.Andrew: So, we're looking to do-- and I shouldn't just say, guys, we work with women too. Once they go through our initial program, we feel confident. Now, we're working to find them jobs. We give them transportation. We're going to transport them to their parole officer. We're going to transport them to their job. We bring them to the grocery store. We bring them to their medical appointments. Initially, "Hey, we're going to take care of all your needs. Now, we're going to teach you how to be self-sufficient." Our goal is we're turning tax burdens into taxpayers. We're not just getting people out and saying, "We're saving the state money, because that's one less person you have to pay for," we're turning these people into taxpayers. We're not just turning them into taxpayers when they're working. We're getting them volunteer opportunities. They're volunteering in the communities they live. I tell clients, "Go join a church." Some of them say, "Hey, I'm not into church." And I say, "You go find your church, find you an AA group, find you some group. Start showing up. After you're there three or four times, someone's going to recognize you and say, "Hey, you want to go to lunch? Hey, tell me about yourself.'"Woody: Integrate them into the community.Andrew: When people get in trouble, 9 times out of 10, it's because their family doesn't know what they're doing. There are no connections. What we find that's worked is we want all these tentacles into them. I'm going to tell you we're a parole officer's best friend because our parole officers have no problems with their clients because oftentimes, the guys out onparole, mama may not know where you're at, but that parole officer is keeping in contact with you, a Parole Project client. These are people who were convicted of the worst crimes, and they're the most successful group out there.And then, the mode is some of our clients who've come out been successful, we've had people start their own small business. We have homeowners, state employees, carpenters, welders, cooks. The people, you walk into Walmart and you don't realize the guy who's checking out next to you just got out of prison doing 30 years. You're in church, the person in the pew next to you is someone who came home. And that's the point. What does someone who's been in prison look like? We're training them to not only to blend in, but to give back to the community.What I would say is we've proven in Louisiana, a place where life without parole is something that is exactly what it means. And we've just accepted that, "Well, we give people life, and we can't let them out because they've done something so bad, they can't get out," or we keep them there so long, they can't adjust to society. We're proving that wrong, and we're proving that. And this isn't like a bleeding heart speech, because I'm not a bleeding heart. I don't believe-- there is a reason we have prisons, there's a reason we hold people accountable. Well, we can hold people accountable, and then we can take a look back and see, is someone worth redemption? Is someone rehabilitated? Someone worth a second chance? And it's a resounding yes. There's a way that you can support someone.One thing I hate to hear is, "He's been in so long, how can we let him out?" What I say is, "Shame on us as a society if we keep someone in prison so long, the reason we can't let them out is because we've kept them in prison so long."Jim: That's a great way of putting it. And you know what? I think your nonprofit does more than anything else, is the same thing that you get inside prison from the staff if they're doing it right, hope. The biggest reason that people reoffend, in my opinion, is they try other things, they hit a bunch of roadblocks, and it's the only thing they know. If you have a felony on your record and you go apply for a job and you have to disclose that felony, and you do, you're doing the right thing, it's hard. Look, I'm not saying they didn't earn the right to have to struggle with that, but it's hard for people to give you a second chance. It is not easy. I'm not someone that lived in that life, but I've seen a lot of people pass through my life that have had that struggle. I've seen people turn back to the only thing they know, because it's the only way they can make money, is by slinging drugs or doing whatever it was that put them in prison to begin with.Your program is really helping them adjust and teaching them that there's another way because anybody who's respected, even the worst of us, when you're respected for the right things, for being a good person, paying your taxes, all those things, you have a self-respect that you don't want to go back to that life.Woody: And then, second chance also-- Jim: It's hugely important.Woody: -what you just hit on, people come out and they can't get the jobs or people are like, "I'm not hiring a con," through second chance, through your program, somebody did take a chance. They're probably the best damn employee in the world. They're like, "Can you give me like 10 more of them?"Andrew: I was about to say two points I want to respond to as it relates to second chances, there is not an employer that we've gotten someone connected to-- a lot of times, it's a lot of work, getting this employer to take a chance, and I understand it. He's got to think, how isthe public going to feel about it? How are my other employees going to feel about it? There's not an employer who doesn't come back and say, "Hey, if you have another guy, I'd be willing to hire another guy." We have multiple employers, car dealerships in Baton Rouge, state government agencies that have multiple clients working for them.As it relates to hope-- We talked about Warden Cain, the current warden of Angola, Tim Hooper, is really a good man, and he's doing good things up there. But as it relates to hope, prisoner-on-staff violence is down at Angola. Prisoner-on-prisoner violence is down at Angola. Participation in educational and self-help programs are up. Why is that? Because people in Angola are seeing people go home. And not only go home, but they're seeing them stay home and stay successful. They know guys' success, guys communicate, and it gives people hope.Jim: So, light at the end of the tunnel.Andrew: What I tell people, even the hardest person who says, "I don't believe in any of this, lock them up. Why should I care about prison conditions?", if you don't care about the thousands of people who live in Angola, care about the employees who work there.Jim: That's right.Andrew: Because they should go into a safe environment. What I can tell you is, it's a safer place to work whenever there are people going home and there is hope in the prison. Hope is a good thing.Woody: Absolutely.Jim: This is a damn good episode. One more thing-- Woody: [crosstalk]Jim: Chills. How can people help support your program? Woody: Say the full name.Jim: We're going to link all of that too.Woody: [crosstalk] -links and everything. We're going to put it across all our stuff because I believe what you're doing is really awesome. Y'all, they are nonprofit, and you fund it through donations and stuff, right?Andrew: Yeah. Jim: In grants. Woody: Grants.Andrew: Grants and individual donations. So, our name is Louisiana Parole Project. Our website is paroleproject.org. You can find us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, @paroleproject. Check us out, you'll see-- If you're wondering what does someone look like coming out of prison, take a look at our social media. We call it the Money Shot, is the guy walking out of the front gate.Jim: [laughs] I love it.Woody: Hey, I'm going to follow--[crosstalk]Jim: The Money Shot.Woody: When we leave the studio, I'm going to go follow.Andrew: And people can donate to our organization online at paroleproject.org. Your donation, no matter how large or small, helps us buy someone coming out of prison, a pair of shoes, helps someone go to driving school, fund the cost to getting their driver's license, gets people started. We are a nonprofit organization, and all of our money goes to supporting people. It's a good investment. What I could tell you is, is it costs taxpayers thousands of dollars to keep people in prison for life. The older you get, the more expensive it costs.Jim: Doubles.Andrew: It does. It's a good return on the investment. We have been ill served by politicians who have fostered the idea that keeping people in prison forever makes us safer. We've led the country in incarceration because of life sentences, and it didn't affect crime. The people who are committing crimes today are not the guys getting out of Angola. So, there's a difference. When we hear some people are like, "Ah, I'm not into these reforms that are happening," what I can tell you is without a doubt, because I see it, I work with these guys, they're not the guys committing crime. They're the guys who are paying taxes, giving back to their community.Jim: Well, thank you for that and keep up the good work on that end. One more thing before we let you get out of here. You got a child and a wife now and we haven't even mentioned that. His wife's a doctor, y'all. How about that?Woody: Yeah.Andrew: Yeah. I'm a lucky man. God's shown me a lot of favor. The best job like I've everhad now is I'm dad to an 11-month-old daughter. Jim: Beautiful.Woody: Aw. Congratulations.Andrew: It's been a wonderful experience. Woody: Congratulations.Jim: Well, keep killing it, man. Keep doing the good work.Woody: Hey, you know what? I would like to ask you back again sometime. Jim: Please.Woody: Because this is [unintelligible [01:02:21]. This is important.Jim: Very important. Thank you.Woody: Thank you.Jim: Thank you very much. We appreciate you.Andrew: Thank you.Woody: Our favorite episode we've ever done. Episodes actually that we've ever done.Jim: Yeah, it was great. We hope y'all enjoyed this. Follow the Patreon, subscribe to us, if you'd like more information, and hopefully you would on the LPP, we're going to link all of that in the description of this podcast. Just scroll down, you'll see it there. You can click on it and help.Woody: When you hear it, if you're moved like I was, share it because we want everybody to know this story.Jim: That's important. Yes.Woody: And we've told you, it'll always be something different coming out of Angola. This isas far in the positive spectrum as we've ever been. Jim: 100%. And until next time, I'm Jim Chapman. Woody: I'm Woody Overton.Jim: Your host of Bloody-Woody: Angola.Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making.Woody: The Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison. Jim: Peace.Our Sponsors:* Check out Factor and use my code bloodyangola50 for a great deal: https://www.factor75.com/ Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy