Podcast appearances and mentions of melvin varghese

Episode 147: Redefining Success, Healing Through Business, and Sustainable Online Growth with Melvin Varghese, PhD What if your business could be a source of healing—not just hustle? In this episode of The Innovative Therapist Podcast, I had the joy of talking with Dr. Melvin Varghese—licensed psychologist, host of the Selling the Couch podcast, and founder of one of the most thoughtful, heart-centered online business communities for therapists. Melvin is someone I deeply admire—not only because he's built a wildly successful podcast and sustainable business—but because he's done it with integrity, intention, and a whole lot of wisdom. We went deep in this honest, funny, and eye-opening conversation about what it really takes to build a business that supports your life (and doesn't deplete it). We talked about so much, including: Melvin's journey from group practice to online entrepreneur The 4:30 AM recordings that started his podcasting journey Burnout, hair loss (!), and what it taught him about sustainability The internal work required to charge what you're worth How podcasting helped him reconnect with younger parts of himself How he built a business that fits around family, health, and deep work AI, creativity, and the future of online business for therapists The courage it takes to slow down and trust your own pace From Private Practice to Podcasting Pioneer Melvin didn't jump into online business overnight. After years of juggling group practice, community mental health, and part-time clinical work, a snowstorm in Philly changed everything—he lost 21 client hours in one week and began wondering: Is there another way? Inspired by mentors like Pat Flynn and driven by a desire for more time freedom, Melvin launched Selling the Couch in 2015 - using an ironing board in his home for some of the early interview episodes. His early episodes were recorded before sunrise and edited by hand between client sessions. Slowly and strategically, he built a podcast that now reaches listeners in over 120 countries and has surpassed 1.8 million downloads. “I wanted to design a career around my family and health instead of fitting my family and health around a career.” What Made His Business Work Unlike many therapists who try to leap into online business and end up burned out (

Navigating Entrepreneurship & Parenthood with Dr. Melvin Varghese | Beacon Way PodcastJoin Adrian Wilkerson on The Beacon Way Podcast as he chats with Dr. Melvin Varghese, a licensed psychologist and founder of the Selling the Couch podcast. Dr. Varghese shares his journey of transitioning from a traditional clinical career to creating a top-rated podcast aimed at helping therapists build online income. They delve into the challenges and dynamics of being a working dad, especially in the context of navigating a premature birth and childcare, and discuss the evolving roles of working parents in today's society. The conversation also touches on the cultural nuances of caregiving, with Dr. Varghese discussing his plans to offer executive coaching to Indian founders and executives. An inspiring and insightful episode for anyone balancing career and family!Melvin Varghese, PhD is a licensed psychologist in Philadelphia, PA.In 2015, Dr. Varghese founded Selling The Couch, a podcast to help therapists move from clinical to online income.On the podcast, he interviews successful practitioners about how they've built their practices, social media/marketing experts, and shares lessons as he uses our clinical skills to create an online business powered by podcasting + online courses.The podcast is one of the top Career podcasts in Apple Podcasts, has been downloaded over 1.8 million times, and is heard in over 125 countries.Dr. Varghese also founded several resources for therapists transitioning from the therapist chair to online income including a podcasting community for therapists that's supported over 240 therapist podcasters, an online course mastermind for therapists launching their first online course (50+ students), and a mastermind for veteran course creators to find support growing and scaling their course.00:00 Introduction and Guest Background01:37 The Journey to Podcasting Success02:52 Balancing Parenthood and Career06:34 Navigating Work-Life Harmony23:45 Cultural Insights and Executive Coaching32:30 Conclusion and Future Plans

Episode 137: Creativity, Entrepreneurship, & Living an Aligned Life (Season 5) Welcome to Season 5! I'm so excited to kick off this season of The Innovative Therapist Podcast with a fresh approach: a seasonal model. In Episode 137, I share why I made this shift and how this season's theme, Creativity, Entrepreneurship, & Living an Aligned Life, will guide us through meaningful and inspiring conversations. Taking extended breaks between seasons has been an intentional choice to allow time for rest, creativity, and alignment with what feels most life-giving—and I'm thrilled to bring this energy into Season 5. To start off this episode and season, I'll share about a song I've been obsessed with every since I heard it. Actually, a YouTube video. I've probably listened and/or watched this video 200x, maybe more. I just watched it before I recorded this episode. I didn't really know why I liked it, but over time I think I'm understanding. I'll share this story as an example of how we can get curious about why we love what we love, even if on the surface it doesn't "make sense" right away... What to Expect This Season This season, we'll dive deep into the stories of therapists and professionals who have carved out lives and careers they truly love. Through honest conversations, we'll explore the messy, beautiful process of paving a path that aligns with our values, embracing creativity and play along the way. My hope is that these stories inspire you to reflect on your own path and find ways to live more fully in alignment. You're also going to see my true Zone of Genius in action, which is essentially, having deep honest talks with super cool people. We'll explore questions like: How do we bring more creativity and play into our work and personal lives? What does it really mean to live in alignment with our values and strengths? How can we reimagine traditional models of therapy and leadership? Each episode is designed to highlight different facets of creativity, play, and alignment through storytelling and practical strategies. Episodes 138 & 139: The Foundation for This Season Episode 138: Pack Leadership: The Most Life-Changing Concept I've Learned Since Intuitive EatingIn this conversation with Randi Rubenstein, we explore the transformative concept of Pack Leadership and its parallels to intuitive eating. It's all about creating safety, connection, and belonging within our “pack,” whether that's our family, team, or community. Randi shares practical strategies to embody calm, confident leadership in all areas of life. Episode 139: Creativity, Play, and Getting More of What You WantRandi returns to talk about how creativity and play have transformed both my parenting and professional life. We discuss how working in your Zone of Genius is not only fulfilling but also deeply generous to those around you—even though it's a countercultural idea. We also explore practical strategies for fostering creativity and play with our kids, at work, and in our daily lives. Additional Guest Lineup for This Season I'm beyond excited to share the lineup of incredible guests joining us this season. Each brings a unique perspective on creativity, play, and living an aligned life: Melvin Varghese, PhD — Creator of Selling the Couch podcast with 1.8+ million downloads, Melvin has so much insight into doing work as a therapist beyond 1 on 1 work. We'll discuss the pros and cons of doing work outside of one-on-one therapy and what it means to follow your creative instincts in new directions. Elisa Pérez-Arellano, LMSW — Elisa shares her journey of blending creativity and connection into her work and how it's shaped her aligned life. Adeshola Nnamdi, LMFT — Adeshola explores the intersection of cultural identity, creativity, and mental health, offering insights on how to honor your roots while forging your unique path. Rachel Bentley,

Podcast sponsorship is often seen as the “golden goose” of podcasting. We started working with sponsors on STC a few years ago, and they have generated over $95k to this point. However, I've learned that relying solely on sponsorships is not the wisest stance because your success rides the ebbs and flows of another company's marketing budget. I'm very grateful for the sponsors who have worked with us, but I don't want to depend on them for the main source of income for STC. Today, I'm sharing three ways you can make money from your podcast from Day One, without having to depend on securing sponsors down the road. Join me for a closer look!You'll Learn:The increasing responsibility I feel to be a good steward in today's podcasting environmentThree ways to make money from your podcast from Day One:One-on-one work–I share how to use analytics to pinpoint your niche and impact to specialize your focus and offerings. (I use and recommend Fathom Analytics.)Scalable work–This includes things you can continue to do for the next 8-10 years, like paid speaking engagements, coaching groups, therapy groups, writing books, and establishing a “private podcast” feed. Online courses–The time and energy investment comes on the front end, but they become an asset into which you can invite others.It's best to view podcast sponsorship as “the cherry on the top” that may come to you, but not as the financial foundation to depend on from month to month.Our free podcasting workshop can help you launch your podcast! Resources:Want to launch your podcast?Check out our free podcasting workshop for therapists (and therapists turned coaches and consultants)https://sellingthecouch.com/podcastingworshopWant to launch your online course?Please check out our free 7-Day Course Creator Starter Kit For Therapists: https://sellingthecouch.com/coursekit

Therapists are uniquely equipped for business because they value authenticity and relationships, which are foundational to both effective therapy and successful businesses. Dr. Melvin Varghese has a tremendous passion for not only his psychology practice but also helping other therapists build their own business through different streams of incomes, specifically podcasting. Dr. Varghese is an experienced clinical psychologist, accomplished podcaster, and founder of “Selling the Couch.”In this first episode of Heard Business School, host Michael Fulwiler speaks with Dr. Varghese about his journey into psychology and moving from clinical work to creating an online business that's helped countless therapists find their footing in the business world.In the conversation, they discuss:The power of authenticity in building your therapy businessHow to scale your business with intentionResources to things to know about starting your own podcast as an additional form of incomeStrategies for avoiding burnout Why long-term thinking, and compounding assets are invaluable for your businessConnect with the guest:Mel's LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/melvinvarghesephd/ Selling the Couch - https://sellingthecouch.com/ Mel's website - https://melvinvarghese.com/ Connect with Michael and Heard:Michael's LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelfulwiler/Heard website - https://joinheard.com/ Newsletter - https://www.joinheard.com/newsletter Book a free consult - https://www.joinheard.com/welcome-form Jump into the Conversation:[00:00] Introducing Heard Business School[00:38] Introduction to Dr. Melvin Varghese [03:02] Mel's entrepreneurial journey as a therapist[08:48] Why therapists often feel intimidated by business and marketing, and why Mel's end goal was never full time private practice[11:36] Mel's start in a group practice and the beginning of his interest in podcasting and using clinical skills beyond therapy or testing.[15:36] Building Mel's business as an overnight success (that took 5 years)[19:12] Some of the challenges Mel faced when trying to build his business including money issues and imposter syndrome[21:04] The importance of focus and compounding effort in building your business[22:09] Approach to social media and importance of trust[25:22] The idea of business being about relationships and therapists are innately adept at authenticity and one-to-one relationships[27:26] The evolution of Healthcasters[33:43] Effective marketing strategy that worked for Mel's business[37:10] How Mel is thinking about intentionally building his private practice now[42:09] Mel's approach to ethical endorsements[43:42] The Footnote: Mel's key takeaway from his journey building his businessThis episode is to be used for informational purposes only and does not constitute legal, business, or tax advice. Each person should consult their own attorney, business advisor, or tax advisor with respect to matters referenced in this episode.

How to Navigate Shifts in the Mental Health Field and Your Career Path: An interview with Dr. Melvin Varghese Curt and Katie interview Dr. Melvin Varghese about how he's navigated his career path. We look at a life changing event that helped him to get perspective on what is most important to him. We also explore practicalities of prioritizing personal life as an entrepreneur.  Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com! In this podcast episode, we talk about how to prioritize your personal life while having a successful career We invited our friend Melvin Varghese back to the podcast to talk about how he is navigating shifts in the profession and his life.  What do therapists get wrong when creating their career? ·      Doing too much and not doing things deeply enough ·      Shifting too quickly when things get hard ·      Failing to look at season of life issues when planning your business ·      Having trouble defining success based on what is resonant to oneself How can therapists prioritize themselves and sustain a therapy career? ·      Pace yourself based on your own life story, not a mentor's or the “shoulds” from the profession ·      Be willing to “fail forward” ·      Pushing back against “curated authenticity” and look at how to be real, with boundaries ·      Aligning career with morals and values ·      Focus on “decades over days” ·      Sustainable content creation What are Melvin's predictions about the future of the profession? ·      Authenticity and real conversations will succeed where AI posting will not ·      Finding content platforms where effort compounds over time ·      Discovery platforms leading to relationship-deepening platforms ·      Navigating a lot of tech and insurance companies ·      People have less discretionary money, so diversifying your income is valuable Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement: Our Linktree: https://linktr.ee/therapyreimagined Modern Therapist's Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/

Podcast sponsorship is often seen as the “golden goose” of podcasting. We started working with sponsors on STC a few years ago, and they have generated over $95k to this point. However, I've learned that relying solely on sponsorships is not the wisest stance because your success rides the ebbs and flows of another company's marketing budget. I'm very grateful for the sponsors who have worked with us, but I don't want to depend on them for the main source of income for STC. Today, I'm sharing three ways you can make money from your podcast from Day One, without having to depend on securing sponsors down the road. Join me for a closer look!You'll Learn:The increasing responsibility I feel to be a good steward in today's podcasting environmentThree ways to make money from your podcast from Day One:One-on-one work–I share how to use analytics to pinpoint your niche and impact to specialize your focus and offerings. (I use and recommend Fathom Analytics.)Scalable work–This includes things you can continue to do for the next 8-10 years, like paid speaking engagements, coaching groups, therapy groups, writing books, and establishing a “private podcast” feed. Online courses–The time and energy investment comes on the front end, but they become an asset into which you can invite others.It's best to view podcast sponsorship as “the cherry on the top” that may come to you, but not as the financial foundation to depend on from month to month.Our free podcasting workshop can help you launch your podcast! Resources:Want to launch your podcast?Check out our free podcasting workshop for therapists (and therapists turned coaches and consultants)https://sellingthecouch.com/podcastingworshopWant to launch your online course?Please check out our free 7-Day Course Creator Starter Kit For Therapists: https://sellingthecouch.com/coursekitMentioned in this episode:

Welcome to the Pursuing Private Practice Podcast! From 1:1 clinical work to online course creation and podcasting, join Jennifer and follow CEO Melvin Varghese of Selling the Couch as they discuss the journey of expanding beyond 1:1 offers in private practice. This episode emphasizes the importance of adaptability, perseverance, and a growth mindset when transitioning from a 'traditional' private practice to the world of online course creation. Join the conversation as they discuss: Transitioning from 1:1 to Scalable Offerings: The transition from traditional 1:1 therapy to scalable online course creation requires a solid foundation and can be challenging, but it offers the potential to share your message with a larger audience and increase revenue. Online Course Creation: Online courses don't need to be overly fancy; the focus should be on the quality of teaching and validating course ideas to ensure they align with what people want. Remember, "Passive income" in online courses doesn't mean zero effort; it involves creating systems for marketing that compound over time. Online courses can be valuable assets to your business. Persistence and Sacrifice: Success in online business doesn't happen overnight but through years of hard work, persistence, and support. Behind the scenes, there are often significant sacrifices that contribute to success. Adapting to Change: Your courses and offerings should evolve as the market, clients, and your own business goals change. Being open to feedback and making necessary adjustments is crucial. Mindset Work: Overcoming mental challenges related to pricing and self-worth is a significant aspect of entrepreneurship. Seek support and address personal issues to build confidence and resilience. Defining Success: Success in business can be defined beyond just revenue. It can involve reevaluating priorities, focusing on family, health, and well-being, and designing a business around the life you want to lead. Melvin Varghese, PhD is a licensed psychologist in Philadelphia, PA. In 2015, Dr. Varghese founded Selling The Couch, a podcast to help therapists move from clinical to online income. On the podcast, he interviews successful practitioners about how they've built their businesses, social media/marketing experts, and shares lessons as he uses our clinical skills to create an online business powered by podcasting + online courses. The podcast is one of the top Career podcasts in Apple Podcasts, has been downloaded over 1.7 million times, and is heard in over 125 countries. Dr. Varghese also founded several resources for therapists transitioning from the therapist chair to online income Connect with Melvin on LinkedIn. Connect with Pursuing Private Practice on Instagram. Expand your business beyond 1:1 work without sacrificing your self-care, boundaries, or integrity.  EXPAND Business Coaching is a 4-month, high-support, business coaching program. This program is for you if you are actively growing and want to scale your business. Check out more details and apply here.

In this episode we chat with Mel, who seems to have the world at his fingertips. He's a successful father, entrepreneur, content creator, and psychologist. Mel's journey is a beautiful fusion of self-discovery, resilience, and a commitment to staying true to oneself. He is one of those people who has it all figured out, but is willing to share all of the ups and downs. We see the success with building a business, podcasting, and social media. But it was a grind early on and took a ton of self reflection and self care to get there.As a psychologist he has a lot to share about the battle between mental health and illness that entrepreneurs face. And he gives us a bunch of great ideas for succeeding in business, but maintaining your mindset along the way.Future Proofing EducationMel reminisces about his younger days, brimming with exploration and creativity. Growing up outdoors, young Mel's world was an endless canvas of possibilities. Today, when he writes online, or produces a podcast or video, it's his way of saluting that imaginative child within, or as he puts it in the episode, “The Kid Mel”.We talked about lifelong learning and how so much of it is about remembering who we were, understanding who we are, and driving towards who we aspire to be.Building His PodcastMel's podcast is a big success and a great north start for any of us podcasters out here working to scale a show.The journey was anything but smooth. While he's a natural storyteller, it took him six months to muster the courage to record his first episode. Even then, he recorded it seven times. His story underscores an essential truth about success; the tip of the iceberg that we see rarely reveals the entirety of one's journey. In his case, grappling with anxiety, depression, and the procrastination that comes with those things were part and parcel of the journey.Scaling Your Dream BusinessFrom bustling nine-to-fives to the freedom to design his schedule, Mel's business evolution is a masterclass in growth. An intriguing aspect of his journey was overcoming money blockers, battling the ingrained belief that earning money might be synonymous with greed. Initially charging minimal amounts, Mel gradually recognized and embraced his worth. Today, his course for therapists, which teaches them podcasting, is nearing an impressive $400,000. Yet, Mel is quick to highlight that this wasn't an overnight achievement. It was a meticulous, health-conscious process of trial and error to get to this point.The Reality of EntrepreneurshipEntrepreneurship is often romanticized, but Mel paints a more realistic picture.We talked about his hunch that perhaps there is a connection between childhood trauma and the hunger to excel as an entrepreneur.And while the appeal of detaching income from hours is real, Mel reminds us of the significance of traditional nine-to-five roles. His transition to entrepreneurship spanned over six years and took a lot of slow growth both personally and professionally.Mel gives us an amazing understanding of what the steps were, at least in his case, to build a creator business while maintaining his health.Armed with these tips, creators like you and I can navigate the often overwhelming world of entrepreneurship.14 Tips for Balancing Creator Business Success With Well-beingHobby or Profession? It's entirely okay for content creation to be just a hobby.Inspiration, Not Imitation: Get inspired by others, but don't feel pressured to mirror someone else's life.Embrace Your Reality: Understand and respect your current life circumstances. Work within your present commitments and needs.Reverse Engineer Your Goals: Visualize the life and business style you want in the future, and work backward to achieve it.From Ideal Schedule to Reality: Draft both an ideal and a current schedule. Whether on paper, tabs, or calendars, work consistently to make your ideal schedule your everyday reality.Find the Right Mentors: Seek out mentors who embody the approach and achievements you aspire to.Prioritize Personal Commitments: Start your scheduling with non-negotiables: family, friends, and personal wellness.Then, Schedule Business Tasks: Once personal commitments are in place, add your entrepreneurial priorities to your calendar.Deep Work Blocks: Reserve the earlier parts of your day, around 4 hours, for intensive, focused work.Routine Breaks: Integrate breaks into your day. This could be naps, walks, workouts, or meals. Turn them into regular routines.Optimize Nutrition: Pay attention to your diet and eating schedule, continuously refining for optimal health.Never Stop Learning: Dedicate daily time for continuous, sacred learning.Smart Monetization: Start with a productized service or consulting based on your unique strengths and audience needs. Once you've gathered feedback and have a growing audience, pivot to more scalable ventures like courses, products, or masterminds. This approach ensures income isn't always directly tied to time spent.Don't Grow Too Fast: Maintain a growth pace that you can own while not compromising your own health. A reasonable rule is to grow no faster than 10-25% year over year.Memorable Quotes“I find the combination of exercise and a power nap keeps my anxiety at bay.” “I say all of this, and I recognize it's a very neurotypical way of planning. I am a highly sensitive person, but“My life as a creator is all about honouring the kid Mel.”“It took me 40 years to realize this, but I don't really need a lot of friends. I would rather have a few really deep relationships.”Guest BioFirst, Melvin Varghese is a girl dad and family man.Second, he is an experienced psychologist, seasoned marketing and social media expert. He has a keen sense of what works in terms of audience growth, and business.Rather than branding himself as a private practice coach, he's on a mission to give back to his profession, driven by core values of truth, sincerity, and kindness. Mel was born in India and transitioned to the U.S. after 1st grade. His journey is one of courage, adaptation, and growth. He hosts a popular podcast and blog that reaches a worldwide audience every day. Melvin's transition from a successful clinical career to a thriving 6-figure creator business showcases his versatility. Currently his main business pillar is a mastermind that aids therapists in pivoting from clinical roles to course income.FOLLOW MelWebsite - Sellingthecouch.ComLinkedIn - @melvinvarghesephdYoutube - @MelvinVarghesePhDFOLLOW JUSTIN (JustTries)Website - JustTriesHOMEInstagram - @JustTriesYouTube - Just TriesTwitter - @JustTries_Tiktok -  @justtriesPinterest - JustTriesFacebook - Just TriesCONNECT WITH JUST KEEP LEARNINGWebsite - JKLHOMEInstagram - @JustKeepLearning.CaTiktok -  @justkeeplearning.caFacebook - Just Keep LearningFree Group - JKL Goal Setting CommunityWe appreciate you being here! Be sure to leave the podcast, “Just Keep Learning” ratings and reviews because it will help people who need it be better able to find it. Also, if you want a shoutout, simply share an image of the episode, you listening, or your takeaways and share it @JustKeepLearning anywhere on social!

Two questions confront me daily: How big do I actually want to grow STC? What is the purpose of STC in relation to my overall life? Freedom is my most important value, and building my business around my life, family, and health is most important to me. Not every entrepreneur has the same goals, but these are questions for every entrepreneur to consider. Let's take a closer look in today's session!You'll Learn:How I was compromising to fit life around my business instead of optimizing the business to fit the life I wanted5 key concepts I learned from Paul Jarvis in his book, Company of One:Companies of one reject limitless growth.We should set firm growth limits to keep opportunity costs small.Companies of one are okay with limited success.More profits mean more productivity, sales, customers, and infrastructure to manage.Develop your business out of a side gig.Your business needs time to incubate and grow so you can devote yourself to it full time.Target a specific audience to find your niche.The more specific your target is, the easier it is to connect, build trust, and distinguish your audience's needs.Embrace the power of simplicity and personality.Amplify your uniqueness by sharing your most powerful asset: yourself and your personality. Resources:Want to launch your online course?Please check out our free 7-Day Course Creator Starter Kit For Therapists: https://sellingthecouch.com/coursekitLooking to launch a successful podcast?Please check out our free "Using Podcasting To Grow Your Business" workshop for therapists:https://sellingthecouch.com/podcastingworkshop

Today on the Brand Your Practice Podcast we're going behind the scenes into Melvin Varghese's STC Elite Mastermind where therapists gather to build and grow an online course.LINKS for GuestFree Stuff To Build Your Course or Podcast (For Therapists)Online Course Starter KitPodcasting WorkshopConnect With MelvinLinkedIn Partner With MelvinThe Healthcasters - A podcasting community for therapists STC Elite - A mastermind for therapist course creators LINKS for Show:TheraSaaS.com → Level up your intake system.Get more private pay clients → Private Pay Practice ProgramResources

Melvin has a PhD in psychology but to call him just "a psychologist" would be trying to fit him in too small of a box. He has left a successful clinical career to build his online "healthy business"  – he is the person behind "Selling the Couch" podcast, he does sessions with entrepreneurs and he runs an online course where he helps therapists to move their business online. Everything he does is designed to allow him to be fully present as a father and a husband because, "What's the point of accomplishing all of this if we can't be fully present with the people that we love the most?"

Do you love learning new things but struggle to retain the information you'd like to remember for later use? This problem is an ever-present obstacle in my nerdy quest to accumulate knowledge. The good news? I've found something that works for me, and I'm sharing it in today's show. Join me to learn more.This is a solo episode about building a second brain. You may or may not have heard of this concept, but it has revolutionized my life. As I stick to my commitment of setting aside two hours every day to learn new things, I find that I can grow as a business owner, gain knowledge and expertise, become more proficient in offering valuable products and services, and improve my physical and mental health. The problem is that I can't always remember everything I read, hear, and think. That's where the magic of the second brain comes in to help. Let's dive in. You'll Learn:● How note-taking helps me remember things and stay organized● How I was introduced to the “second brain concept” through the work of Ali Abdaal, a physician in England● The basics of the second brain: Instead of feeling pressure to store accumulated knowledge in my brain, I can store it online in a digital brain● How the second brain principles of productivity were developed by world-renowned productivity expert Tiago Forte, who has a free 10-part podcast on the topic (see Resources)● Ten Principles in Building a Second Brain:○ Borrowed creativity○ The capture habit○ Idea recycling○ Projects over categories○ Slow burns○ Start with abundance○ Intermediate packets○ You only know what you make○ Make things easier for your future self○ Keep your ideas moving ● “The key is not to just consume content, but to personalize and recycle it.”Resources mentioned:Ali AbdaalForte Labs Find the 10-part podcast series on Building a Second Brain at Forte LabsApps and tools recommended by Melvin:For live transcription of Mastermind groups: OtterFor pulling highlights from Kindle books: Readwise For capturing snippets of podcasts: Airr For pulling highlights from blog posts: Instapaper To use a central repository for information: Notion or Evernote or Roam Research.com Transcript:Melvin:Hey friends, welcome to session 264 of Selling the Couch, I hope that you are having a wonderful day. So today's episode is a solo one. And I wanted to start this episode by sharing a story or rather a scenario. As you may have figured out

Episode SummaryDr. Melvin Varghese is a licensed psychologist who realized that he wanted more than the traditional career route. Not wanting to simply fit his family, health and hobbies around his career, he instead built a career around those pillars. Dr. Melvin transformed his wildly successful podcast and blog, Selling the Couch, into a podcasting course for therapists who wanted to share their big messages with the world. Today, Harry and Dr. Melvin talk about the concept of ‘enough,' the four-day work week, and the importance of fostering creativity, especially as an entrepreneur. Dr. Melvin expounds on his online course mastermind and other exciting ventures he has in the pipeline.Episode SponsorFocusrite – http://pcjk.es/vocasterFullCast – https://fullcast.co/Key Takeaways06:26 – Dr. Melvin Varghese joins the show to discuss what drew him to the field of psychology, his Indian culture and his experience moving to the United States15:47 – The idea of ‘enough' and fostering creative spirits20:50 – The 4-day work week27:17 – Selling the Couch's origin story31:46 – When podcasting came on Dr. Melvin's radar and how he has grown as a host40:43 – Helping successful therapists in private practice with their online businesses52:34 – Dr. Melvin's tweets and how he is flexing his writing muscle56:43 – Something Dr. Melvin has changed his mind about recently and the most misunderstood thing about him57:40 – Harry thanks Dr. Melvin for joining the show and lets listeners know where they can go to connect with him and learn more about Selling the CouchTweetable Quotes“There's this sense of connecting to one another. And there's a slow pace of life where it's more about enjoying the work as opposed to completing the work. It changes your perspective on life.” (16:33) (Dr. Melvin)“I wanted to figure out how my daughter and I could do as many interesting things to foster creativity and have that openness of spirit, fully aware that she would eventually go into a system where that would be potentially zapped.” (20:28) (Dr. Melvin)“Literally this was a side gig. I started interviewing successful practitioners about how they built their businesses. I started interviewing therapists about how they started creating income beyond the therapy room.” (29:04) (Dr. Melvin)“I think the most I've grown [as a podcast host] is just letting my personality and my imperfections shine.” (35:58) (Dr. Melvin)“It's when I narrowed it down to therapists, but even ‘therapists' was not niched enough for my course. What I actually now have niched it down to is ‘successful therapists in private practice who are moving from therapist chair to more of an online business.” (42:10) (Dr. Melvin)“I realized that a lot of stuff is driven by quality sleep. The way I used to think about it was that sleep was something that is needed to get you refreshed for the next day. Whereas now I've started optimizing around sleep.” (56:48) (Dr. Melvin)Resources MentionedMelvin's LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/melvinvarghesephd/Selling the Couch – https://sellingthecouch.com/Melvin's Podcast – https://selling-the-couch.captivate.fm/Dr. Melvin's Twitter –

Even though you may love being a therapist, do you ever feel burnt out and tired of trading 60-minute increments of time for money?Have you ever thought it would be nice to have some passive income or just another revenue stream, in general, to take some of the pressure off of always wondering if you'll have enough clients this month to foot the bills?Do you want a way to scale your income and stop trading dollars for hours?Well, this episode is for you!In this episode, I talk with Melvin Varghese, psychologist, founder and host of the Selling The Couch podcast, and online course creator. Top 3 reasons to listen to the entire episode:Learn how to take your existing knowledge and skills and create a scalable online course.Understand what common pitfalls and obstacles arise in course creation and how to overcome them.Learn different ways to set up your courses for monetization and how these worked (or didn't) for 2 successful online course creators sharing their personal experiences.So, if you are starting to feel like just doing therapy is starting to lead to burnout and you need another source of income to help you relax and invest in more self-care, or if you just feel like you have the drive to put your knowledge and skills out into the world on a larger scale and help tons of people at the same time, online course creation might be the way to go.Check out this episode packed full of some of the most helpful tips and perspectives about online course creation.More about Melvin:Melvin Varghese, Ph.D. is a licensed psychologist in Philadelphia, PA. In 2015, Dr. Varghese also founded Selling The Couch, a podcast to help private practitioners grow their impact and income in and beyond the therapy room. On the podcast, he interviews successful practitioners about how they've built their businesses, and social media/marketing experts to help us learn the lessons we didn't in grad school.Mel also shares lessons as he uses our clinical skillset to create an online business powered by podcasting + online courses. The podcast is one of the top Career podcasts in Apple Podcasts, has been downloaded over 1.4 million times, and is heard in over 125 countries. Mel also founded several resources for therapists transitioning from the therapist chair to online income including:The Healthcasters-A podcasting community for therapists (https://sellingthecouch.com/jointhehealthcasters)STC Elite- A mastermind for therapist course creators (https://sellingthecouch.com/mastermind)Selling The Couch: sellingthecouch.comDOWNLOAD THE FREE ONLINE COURSE GUIDE FOR THERAPISTS: sellingthecouch.com/onlinecourseguide-------------------------------------------------------

Today's show is the first of a two-part series about livestreaming. I jumped somewhat hesitantly into this world a few months ago, and surprisingly, I've enjoyed this new outlet. Join me as I share what I've learned about livestreaming.I was nervous about starting The STC Online Income Stream because I am usually self-conscious on video. I've become more comfortable and more familiar with being in front of the camera over these months of livestreaming. My livestream focuses on podcasting and online courses, but I have plans to expand into other content areas. The current format is set for 15-minute talks about growing our impact and income beyond the therapy room, sharing tips and strategies that have proven to be successful. Today's episode is all about the technical gear needed to set up a livestream, and next week's Part 2 will focus on livestream content creation.www.sellingthecouch.com/session258

This is the follow-up to last week's podcast about creating a professional livestream. We've already covered the gear you'll need, so today's show focuses on creating the content for your livestream. Join me for Part 2!If you listened to Episode 258, you might be saying, “OK, Melvin, I have the gear, so what else do I need to do to prep for my livestream?” I'm glad you asked! After only doing livestreams for a few months, I've already learned a lot (including some very cool timesaving hacks and helpful tools), and I'm eager to share those experiences with you.www.sellingthecouch.com/session259

Dr. Melvin Varghese is a licensed psychologist, podcaster, and course creator. After starting a podcast to grow his therapy practice, he soon found an audience of therapists who were hungry for education and tools to help them grow their businesses. Today Mel is the creator of an online course and mastermind for private practice  therapists.. Through his work he helps therapists create additional income streams and transition from the therapy chair to making online income. In this episode you'll learn: What Dr. Melvin does His path into psychology Mel's transition from the therapy chair to online therapy His thoughts on multiple streams of income The strip mall model for building a business Ideation of the online course for therapists The benefits of Melvin's podcast for therapists How Mel encourages therapists to share their voice through podcasts Busting the myth — transitions aren't smooth, they're tough Downstream effects of trauma and how to begin working through it Insecurities with money — identifying and overcoming them About “brain spotting” and tuning into your body and mind How Mel thinks about the work that he does Why you should think about your calling in terms of an active verb Show notes at: https://themeaningmovement.com/mel

What techniques have you found that help you stay on task each day? Maybe you have some tried and true habits, or maybe you recognize the need to put in place a little more structure. Either way, there is inspiration waiting for you in today's show! Solo episodes are always fun for me because I love getting to share with you what I'm learning. Today's topic is about the habits I've incorporated to maximize my productivity on a week-to-week basis. For many of us, our self-worth is measured by how much we get done, and it's taken work for me to get past that judgmental place. I've found some things that work well for me; some are based on experience, learning, and tweaking, and some are based on research. I hope my tips will inspire you to evaluate your productivity and see what might work better for you. RESOURCES TO GUIDE YOUR BUSINESS JOURNEY Disclosures: Please note that all opinions are my own and based on my personal experience. Sponsors are acknowledged. Some links in the description are affiliate links where if you click on one of the product links, I'll receive a commission at no additional cost to you. I use these funds to continue to create helpful content to serve our field. As an Amazon Associate, I earn a small commission from qualifying purchases. MY FREE ONLINE WORKSHOPS (These Can Be Watched At A Date/Time That Works For You):

As STC has grown, I've been wanting to address this topic of getting on other podcasts as a guest. In a typical week, I receive several requests from people wanting to be a guest on STC.  There are several reasons why I cannot accept every one of those requests, and there are things to consider in remaining authentic while seeking podcast appearances. In this solo episode, we discuss some tips to follow if you want to increase your exposure by appearing on podcasts. RESOURCES TO GUIDE YOUR BUSINESS JOURNEY Disclosures: Please note that all opinions are my own and based on my personal experience. Sponsors are acknowledged. Some links in the description are affiliate links where if you click on one of the product links, I'll receive a commission at no additional cost to you. I use these funds to continue to create helpful content to serve our field. As an Amazon Associate, I earn a small commission from qualifying purchases. MY FREE ONLINE WORKSHOPS (These Can Be Watched At A Date/Time That Works For You):

Welcome back to Therapy Chat! This week host Laura Reagan, LCSW-C expresses gratitude to Melvin Varghese, PhD, who recently interviewed her on his podcast, Selling the Couch. That interview goes live in September, 2021. Be prepared to hear Laura getting all choked up while sharing about the process of creating the new website Trauma Therapist Network. Laura also thanked Katie Vernoy, LMFT and Curt Widhalm, LMFT for interviewing her on their podcast, The Modern Therapist's Survival Guide. Laura talked about how her frustration with the lack of awareness about trauma and trauma therapy, despite the data that is out there on its long term impact, led her to create the Trauma Therapist Network. Laura also celebrated the first 5000 downloads of Trauma Chat Podcast and welcomed the newest member of the Trauma Therapist Network family, Mary Sue McCarthy, LCPC of Hunt Valley, MD. Mary Sue is Certified in EMDR and also uses Sensorimotor Psychotherapy and Equine Therapies in her practice, where she specializes in trauma and substance abuse.  Also, in today's episode, Laura interviews Risa Ganel, LCMFT, a relationship expert who owns a private couples therapy practice in Maryland and is a group practice owner and public speaker. Risa speaks about the importance of conflict in relationships, how our early relationships can teach us unhealthy conflict styles and describes the elements of healthy conflict and what she calls "the intimacy circuit". Risa has trained with Esther Perel and Terry Real and is a Certified Relational Life therapist.  Risa's website: https://togethercouplescounseling.com Thank you to this week's sponsors! Sunset Lake CBD is created on a small farm outside of Burlington, Vermont that is a producer for Ben & Jerry's Ice Cream.  Sunset Lake CBD customers support regenerative agriculture that preserves the health of the land and creates meaningful employment in the community. Farm workers are paid a living wage, and employees own the majority of the company. Therapy Chat listeners, get 20% off your entire order of Sunset Lake CBD products using promo code CHAT at www.sunsetlakecbd.com.  Thank you also to Therapy Reimagined Conference! Therapy Reimagined is more than a conference - it's an experience! Join the community of Modern Therapists for the 4th annual, 2nd virtual, 1st HYBRID(!!) Therapy Reimagined Conference from September 23-25, 2021! We will be in Los Angeles and online with our super fancy virtual conference App. We bring fresh diverse voices to our virtual and physical stages talking about cutting edge topics that most other conferences avoid. Learn more at therapyreimaginedconference.com AND - Grab your virtual or hybrid ticket for 15% off with a special promo code for Therapy Chat Listeners: THERAPYCHAT15.  Help us make Trauma Therapist Network the best resource it can be! Send a message about resources you think should be included in the Trauma Therapist Network Site using the form on this page. Looking for a trauma therapist or are you a trauma therapist wanting to join the network? Check it out at: www.traumatherapistnetwork.com! Therapy Chat and Trauma Chat podcasts are also found on the site. Follow Therapy Chat on Instagram Follow Trauma Chat on Instagram Podcast produced by Pete Bailey - https://petebailey.net/audio

This is the follow-up to last week's podcast about creating a professional livestream. We've already covered the gear you'll need, so today's show focuses on creating the content for your livestream. Join me for Part 2! If you listened to Episode 258, you might be saying, “OK, Melvin, I have the gear, so what else do I need to do to prep for my livestream?” I'm glad you asked! After only doing livestreams for a few months, I've already learned a lot (including some very cool timesaving hacks and helpful tools), and I'm eager to share those experiences with you. RESOURCES TO GUIDE YOUR BUSINESS JOURNEY Disclosures: Please note that all opinions are my own and based on my personal experience. Sponsors are acknowledged. Some links in the description are affiliate links where if you click on one of the product links, I'll receive a commission at no additional cost to you. I use these funds to continue to create helpful content to serve our field. As an Amazon Associate, I earn a small commission from qualifying purchases. MY FREE ONLINE WORKSHOPS (These Can Be Watched At A Date/Time That Works For You):

How to Overcome Impostor Syndrome to Leave Your Agency Job An interview with Patrick Casale, LCMHC, LCAS, about how impostor syndrome and other barriers can get in the way of therapists moving forward into private practice. Curt and Katie talk with Patrick about what it takes to make the leap from negative work situations and become a “therapist wizard.” We also look at lots of creative ideas on how to step into fear to confront impostor syndrome as well as how to build a private practice that's right for you.   It's time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age. Interview with Patrick Casale, MA, LCMHC, LCAS Patrick currently works as a private practice coach and strategist and private practice owner. He lives in Asheville NC with his wife Ariel and two dogs, Hudson and Hazel. He's worked in the helping profession since 2008. In the last 12 years, he's worked in several different arenas in community mental health. From a qualified professional to the program director, he found himself constantly being promoted to middle management roles where he was able to see both sides of the coin. It was hard watching his staff work so hard for so little while trying to appease the powers that be who typically were out of touch with day-to-day operations. He has worked full time as a private practice therapist for the last three years. In those three years, he's traveled to 8 different countries, taken lots of vacations, grown his business to a point where it feels easy and routine, and has helped other therapists in the area do the same. In this episode we talk about: The ideas around impostor syndrome and how it impacts therapists Common mistakes therapists make when moving from community mental health to private practice How therapists can consistently negatively evaluate their own competence Entrepreneurial anxiety and missteps based on lack of confidence The early messages and attachment issues that impact self-esteem, perception of competence Embracing fear to move forward, accepting that mistakes are inevitable Vulnerability and authenticity, perfectionism Taking power back through making impostor syndrome playful Looking at how different identities are impacted by “impostor syndrome” Conflicting and negative messages that therapists get Entitlement and pessimism from more seasoned clinicians Abundance versus scarcity mindset How to become a therapist wizard Moving from an agency to private practice The danger of staying in an agency when you're at the point of no return The lack of specific numbers or exact instructions on when you should make the leap The importance of networking when building a private practice Ideas for overcoming anxiety and still move forward on starting your private practice The importance of having an exit plan and steps in place Making decisions on what is needed versus what is desired, what values can be considered The goals that are possible once you move into your own private practice Creativity in how you set up your practice Understanding what you need to set yourself up for success Our Generous Sponsor: The Healthcasters The Healthcasters is a podcasting course and community designed for therapists in private practice and therapists turned coaches + consultants that's supported the successful launch of over 270 podcasts. Wanted to tell you guys a little bit what's included in the Healthcasters podcasting course. It includes simple step by step videos to take your podcast from idea to one that generates income when it launches. Also includes cheatsheets and templates Melvin uses for the Selling The Couch podcast whether its scripts to reach out to guests or templates to let guests know a podcast is live.  We recently released the Podcast Episode Tracker.  This simple sheet helps you keep your podcast episodes organized whether you want to reference them later or re-purpose the content in the future.  You can also choose to upgrade after purchasing the course to a community of over 250 other therapist podcasts.  This also includes monthly group and 1 on 1 coaching calls with Melvin.  You can learn more about Healthcasters at sellingthecouch.com/jointhehealthcasters (enter the promo code "therapyreimagined" at checkout for $100 off the listed price).   Resources mentioned: We've pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance! https://casalecoaching.com/ Patrick's All Things Private Practice Facebook group   Relevant Episodes: Career Trekking with MTSG Online Therapy Apps   Connect with us! Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined Conferences   Our consultation services: The Fifty-Minute Hour Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We're working on it. Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren't trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don't want to, but hey.   Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com www.therapyreimagined.com Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist's Group https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/ https://twitter.com/therapymovement https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/   Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/ Transcript (Autogenerated)   Curt Widhalm  00:00 This episode of the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide is brought to you by Healthcasters.   Katie Vernoy  00:04 The healthcasters is a podcasting course and community designed for therapists and private practice and therapists turn coaches and consultants that supported the successful launch of over 270 podcasts. Learn more about the health casters at sellingthecouch.com/jointhehealthcasters and enter the promo code therapy reimagined at checkout for $100 off the listed price.   Curt Widhalm  00:26 Listen at the end of the episode for more information about healthcasters,   Announcer  00:29 You're listening to the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide where therapists live, breathe and practice as human beings to support you as a whole person and a therapist. Here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.   Curt Widhalm  00:45 Welcome back modern therapists. This is the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide. I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy. And this is the podcast that deals with All Things therapists, the things that we do the things that we don't do the things that we make up that other people think about us and how to deal with those kinds of things. And today, we are joined by the world's foremost expert on imposter syndrome, who is going to teach us about everything... just kind of our fun way of leading into imposter syndrome jokes. So, up to you to believe this or not, Patrick Casale he's one of our Therapy Reimagined 2021 speakers. He's a lcmhc and an lcsw. And here to talk to us about imposter syndrome. Thanks for spending some time with us today   Patrick Casale  01:35 Curt and Katie, thanks for having me. And that just made me have even more imposter syndrome. So thank you for that.   Katie Vernoy  01:42 No pressure, no pressure at all. And what we do is then we also add the the wonderful task of answering this question right when you come on, who are you? And what are you putting out into the world?   Curt Widhalm  01:56 Who do you think you are?   Katie Vernoy  01:57 Who do you think you are?   Curt Widhalm  02:00 What gives you the right?   Patrick Casale  02:03 I'm a big office fan Curt. So we can get along now. So I live in Asheville, North Carolina, and I own a group practice here in town. And I also own a private practice coaching and building business that helps therapists take the leap from agency jobs and start their own businesses.   Katie Vernoy  02:24 That is such a needed service. Because I think, as most of our listeners know, I was in community mental health for a very long time. And when I ejected from that system, I definitely would have wanted your support, Patrick. So one of the questions that I that we ask everyone is what do you think therapists often get wrong? And I'm going to put that more specifically to when they're moving from an agency job to private practice, what do you think they typically get wrong?   Patrick Casale  02:52 That is such a good question. There's so much the answer to that question. I'll tell you some of the things that I typically see that is pretty consistent, the lack of belief that they can be successful, that nobody is going to pay them for their services, that nobody makes it on their own, that they have to take insurance to get clients. And a lot of therapists just obviously don't understand business, right? Because they never had formal business training or marketing training. And that is really problematic when starting a business.   Curt Widhalm  03:34 We have started this episode here talking joking about some imposter syndrome. This is something that a lot of people do struggle with, and at various points in their career and at various points of success in what they're doing. How did you become interested in imposter syndrome in this whole process? Because part of what you're describing is people facing some of these realities of having a lot of credentials, having a lot of experience that would say, you know, the only difference is that you're coming to see me in an office I pay the rent for rather than in somebody else's office that they're paying the rent for. So how did you first become interested in this process?   Patrick Casale  04:18 I just recognize that feeling really all of my life, but more so when it comes to growth in business development, or betting on myself so to speak. So when I started my practice, you're right, like, all the training, all the supervision, all the agency experience, but because it's my business, this is really scary. And I clearly am not competent enough to be successful at it, which was always the mentality. And you know, I would notice that feeling a lot when maybe a client interaction didn't go well and they terminated and you would ask yourself, I'm I clearly am not a competent therapist. business owner, I cannot be successful at this. I don't know what I'm doing. And I just felt that so intensely so often. And just recognizing what was happening this entrepreneurial like, insecurity in terms of who am I? How am I actually able to be hired to provide a service when I don't even think that I'm good at it. And that would happen just so often. And I would process that with my own therapist. And that definitely helped. But, you know, it doesn't, it doesn't make it go away. You started talking about imposter syndrome publicly, this summer, over COVID. I was just kind of bored in my house all the time. And I would go on Facebook Lives and just talk about the imposter syndrome phenomenon and how we can have all of the training and expertise and credentials in the world. But we are the ones who believe that we are not sufficient enough or competent enough or skilled enough to be successful. And a lot of times that feels like why me, I just lucked into this. And I noticed myself having imposter syndrome, talking about imposter syndrome. And it would be a Facebook Live that nobody was even watching. But I'm like, but somebody is gonna know and find out that I am a fraud. And they're gonna call me on it. And that turned into doing webinars and presentations on it. And of course, the first one that I did, I forgot to hit record for an hour. And afterwards, everyone's like, this was so great. I can't wait to watch this over and over and over again, how you can't record it.   Katie Vernoy  06:51 Oh, man, that's awful. That's awful. I think it's, it's refreshing to have someone talk about it so authentically. And I think there's more of an effort of folks being authentic and claiming some of these challenges, but the way that you were just talking about it, like I felt it in my heart. And it's clear that it's something that you've definitely been working on and grappling with. Maybe we can talk about your story or or how you see how imposter syndrome gets in the way for therapists. But it seems like many therapists are resonating with this imposter syndrome idea and having this notion like why me I lucked into it. Why would people hire me like all of these things that you were saying? It seems like a lot of us resonate with that. Where do you think that comes from? And how do you think that gets in the way for therapists,   Patrick Casale  07:40 I think it gets in the way by preventing people from pursuing the things that they really want to do, the things that they really care about, it gets in the way, and prevents people from taking risks, because it's easier to stay in your box and not grow. And it's less scary to do that, even if that means working at an agency job that for all intents and purposes, like is just brutal and wearing you down. But you know, you're gonna get a paycheck every other Friday, and you know what to expect. It's really scary. And I really do believe that imposter syndrome comes from an attachment focus perspective, where we're given mixed messages as kids, when we grow up, and our parents tell us how you got an A in class, you're so smart. And then you get a D and it's like, what the hell is wrong with you, you're, you're stupid, or you're not trying. And I think those mixed messages are really negatively impactful and impact our self esteem and our confidence. And it makes us second guess ourselves in our capabilities and our abilities in general. And I think it comes up for people when they're trying something new when they're trying to grow, especially in business development, or when they're trying to maybe level up and be they feel like maybe they're not as competent as their peers or their colleagues, and that they feel like they don't have enough training. I hear that a lot. I don't have enough training to be in private practice. Why would somebody hire me if somebody else offers EMDR therapy? And I don't? Like those are the things that I feel like really hold us back from pursuing the things that really allow us to do fantastic work in these types of fields.   Curt Widhalm  09:36 So what's the answer? For a lot of people facing these issues? What do you suggest the people work on so that way they can regain their confidence back, you know, we can't go back and fix what our parents said to us or any of those mixed messages that we've had in the past. What do you suggest to people to feel the confidence to get past some of these lingering doubt,   Patrick Casale  10:01 such a good question. And I don't think there's one specific answer. But I have several. I think embracing that fear and stepping into it, talking about it, putting it out to the world is really powerful. Because it, it takes some of the power away from the stuff that feels really frightening and overwhelming. So you need to have a good support system to put this out there with. And when I talk about this stuff, some people will message me and say, Why are you being so vulnerable are so authentic? This is like taboo, essentially. And I'm like, I don't believe that. I think that if we talk about it, then it's not as frightening. It makes it less intimidating, because it's normalized by other people who are like, Oh, yeah, I experienced the same exact thing. So then it's like, well, very clearly, it just can't be me. Even though I'm feeling it so intensely. But I think a good strategy is to allow yourself to make mistakes and to tell yourself that you're going to fail, or you're going to have a hard time when trying something new. When we learn to ride a bike, we probably fall off a bunch of times before we learn how to ride. And we need to do the same thing in terms of creating growth, leaving your agency job starting your private practice starting your group practice, because you're gonna make mistakes. And that's okay. I think a big symptom of imposter syndrome is perfectionism, and trying to do everything perfect all the time, because it's like, I can't put this out to the world. Because it's not perfect, people are gonna judge me, they're gonna know that I'm fraudulent. And I think that we have to remind ourselves very often, that asking for help is okay. One strategy I really love is making it playful, giving imposter syndrome, a funny voice or a funny name of someone maybe that you don't respect that much or you laugh at. And I did a presentation and a friend brought up like I was so like Harry Potter and Bogart like, and I thought, I hate Harry Potter, what are you talking about? But she was alluding to the fears that all of the main characters had. And when they made them playful, when they put like roller skates on a snake, or like, made something have a really funny voice, you take the power back, it's not as intimidating.   Katie Vernoy  12:39 Yeah, I think that's an interesting concept. And, to me, this idea of giving imposter syndrome, a funny voice or having it be playful. I think that's, I mean, it's kind of the old phrase, like, if you're nervous and public speaking, imagine everybody naked or you know, whatever, like, you know, kind of do the thing where all of a sudden, that becomes ridiculous. And I hear that I also recognize that there are things that are hard to make playful that that can lead to imposter syndrome, there's a lot of stuff that are very real systemic issues that can be part of different clinicians experiences and why they may have imposter syndrome. We don't have to go down too far down the road if you don't want to, but it just feels like, you know, there's imposter syndrome for white folks. And then there's also Patan imposter syndrome for bipoc individuals and other folks in March with marginalized identities where they are consistently told that they are imposters or that their failures or that kind of stuff are treated and you know, kind of had that kind of experience of being ignored or invisible or undercut in some way. And so, what do you think about that question about how folks with different identities impact interact around imposter syndrome?   Patrick Casale  13:59 is a great, great, great statement and needs to be made. You know, colonialism definitely shapes that word, right? Because there's not a lot of research on imposter syndrome. The one one of the main studies you can find was done in the 70s. It was all about women in the workplace, but especially women of color in the workplace, not feeling like they belonged or fit in. But that's because they were told all their lives that they didn't. Yeah, and they had to work so much harder to get there. And obviously, as a white male with a lot of privilege. I don't experience those things on a day to day basis. But we have to be aware of the fact that that term does not mean the same thing for everybody. So for bipoc folks and people of color in general, like who have to fight a million times harder to get to the same place and are told constantly that they're inadequate or not worthy or not as good It takes on a whole different meaning. And I almost hate to use the word imposter syndrome when we're talking like this in that way, it's actually created some internal conflict in terms of how do I want to shape what I'm going to talk about in September? Yeah, because it's really important to honor that and to acknowledge the fact that if we berate and abuse and make people feel less than, of course, they never feel like they, they made it or they fit in or they belong, or they're as competent, if not more competent,   Curt Widhalm  15:34 and in particular to our field. I want to go back to what you were talking about earlier, as far as some of these mixed messages, what are some of the mixed messages that you see us sending to younger therapists that contribute to some of the stuff that you're talking about? Or people who might be ready to launch? Because our field seems to be fraught full of contradictory sort of messages that we send people?   Patrick Casale  16:00 Yeah, absolutely. One thing stands out to me. When I quit my job at my agency, I did like an exit interview lunch. And my program manager said, I'll see you back here in 60 days, because nobody makes it on their own. You can't be successful working for yourself, you'll be back here begging for your job back. I think that we hear that in graduate school, too. I think we hear it a lot. Not in all grad school programs, I want to say that, I think in most grad school programs, we're told that you don't get into this field to make money. You don't get into this field to be successful. You get in this field to be a helper. And although that's true, this is a complex field where we can do both simultaneously. And we can make good livings as helping professionals and still help people. But I think that it's really drilled in in the agency environment, because there is this fear that people are just going to continue to leave. We can't maintain employees here because people are going to continue to leave us. I also see that sometimes for more seasoned clinicians, who maybe it comes from an envious place of like, I want all the referrals, or I don't want to refer to these young clinicians who don't have as much experience as me, why are they charging as much as me, I see that a lot in a lot of the communities that I'm a part of   Katie Vernoy  17:30 the young whippersnappers taken our referrals,   Patrick Casale  17:33 right, our jobs and our referrals   Curt Widhalm  17:35  I'm trying to think of a nice way of saying that there's almost an entitlement of more seasoned people who've been in these positions of like, how dare you come in and do things better than me like that? We really just have to continue to keep getting over ourselves. And yeah, you know, maybe part of it, you know, does come from kind of that like scarcity mindset that a lot of clinicians kind of just pass on some of this imposter syndrome and sort of thing, like, I've got to have my quarter of the market. And therefore, if the best way of me doing that is making you too anxious about your quarter of the market, like it's, especially here, the utilization of mental health services over the last year or so in the pandemic, like, there's plenty of people who need our health break. And it should be something where to help not just, you know, make this a multi generational trauma within our field that we can just kind of keep building each other up on this.   Patrick Casale  18:39 Yeah, that's, that's really well said. And speaking of, there's enough people that want our help. I mean, once the running joke in our field, or not choke, the frustration that nobody calls clients back, right. So like, if that's a situation that's arising, and there's more clients than clinicians to go around, we can all support one another success, and I do believe in the abundance mentality, and that would be the same. I'll say that imposter syndrome prohibited me from starting my private practice and coaching business because I live in the same city as Alison and abundance, right? So how can anyone ever hire me if Alison per year exists here, it's the mentality that we can all be successful because we all have different voices, we all have different approaches and styles. And I think that's really important for young clinicians to remember that there's room for everybody. And just because you don't offer a certain modality or don't have a certain training, as long as you're doing supervision and working ethically and understanding culture and continuing to work on anti racism. I don't understand why we can't have more private practice clinicians who feel like they can also be successful that we don't have to like work ourselves. into burnout mode before we can suddenly jump ship and become like, therapist wizards and leave the agency world behind.   Katie Vernoy  20:10 jumping ship and becoming therapists, wizards. I love it. So okay, so I have so many thoughts going on my head, but I but I'm gonna take   Curt Widhalm  20:20 her brains going a mile a minute,   Katie Vernoy  20:26 at least a mile a minute, at least a mile a minute. But you know that 60 miles per hour. So anyway. Okay, so let's talk about this becoming a therapist wizard, because I think that there's a lot of folks who listened to our podcast, and we even had Marissa on and she was talking about her listening as she was driving around and public mental health listening to the podcast, and deciding then and there that she was going to make the leap when she could. And we don't actually have an episode on how do you do this? Like, how do you leave community mental health and move out into private practice? So now that they're ready, because they've listened, they've decided I am going to fight imposter syndrome and become a therapist wizard? What do they need to consider? Or what are the logistics for moving to private practice from public or community mental health?   Patrick Casale  21:34 I have a, I've done some videos on that, you know, how do I know when I'm ready to leave my agency job? When will I know that it's like the best decision, right? And there's never a absolute certainty that you're going to leave and that things are gonna work out perfectly? If that was the case, everybody would do it. But I think that, you know, when you start to question, what else is there, you start to have this internal dialogue of why did I go to grad school for this, because this is not enjoyable. This is not something that lights me up every morning to come here and work 50 hours a week and be on call and be in crisis all the time. Maybe I'll go back to working at Starbucks, like, that's got to be better than this. I think when you start to really question what else is out there? How else can you make a living? I think that if your value system aligns with autonomy, and freedom and travel and movement, and not being micromanaged, then you need to start considering it. And there's never gonna be a certain amount of clients or a certain amount of money coming in for private practice to be a sure thing to leap out of that agency job. I encourage therapists to do anything they can to get out of the agency world to start their practices, including go drive for Uber Eats, as you continue to build your practice, like, you can still make money. And it doesn't have to be at a community mental health agency if you're at the point of no return. So once your mental health, your physical health, your burnout starts kicking in, it's too late, you've waited too long. We all know the people who work in community mental health who putter around the halls who are like lifers and have never left and are miserable. You don't want to be that person. It depends. Everyone's situations are so different, right? Like financial situations, partnerships, lack of partnerships, whatever the case may be. I just knew it was time when my physical health started failing. I ended up in the hospital from stress, like I was done. I wasn't going to be a therapist anymore when I decided to leave. And I never thought I would be successful in private practice that never crossed my mind. It never was even a thing that I thought about. I think when we're in the thick of it and in crisis all the time, we can't think about other opportunities or possibilities. So I would say this. If you're considering leaving and going into private practice, ask yourself what if you value things about entrepreneurial ship, autonomy, making your own decisions, your own schedule, seeing the clients the way you want to see them when you want to see them, it's probably for you. Now it's just about how to put the pieces in place and whether that means leaving to go to a group practice to get some feelers out there and feel a little bit more comfortable. Sure. I think that's a great middle ground. I don't know if there's ever a certain like box you check for number of clients or amount of money you're bringing in and I think a lot of people want to know that like magic number. And I can say that I started a practice at night, and I found myself networking on my lunch hours. And I found myself taking PTO to go to my private practice and feeling so energized in the evening after working 50 hours a week. sitting in my chair in my office, paying my rent getting my phone phone calls, like it just felt so empowering. And I built myself up to 15 clients felt confident put a 90 day notice in because you know, my agency needed me. They needed me around as a supervisor. As soon as I worked that notice out 10 of those 15 clients left on vacation, went back to school moved out of the state. And I questioned it. And I was like, What did I just do?   Katie Vernoy  25:26 Oooh, that's tough.   Patrick Casale  25:28 It was tough.   Katie Vernoy  25:31 So what did you do, don't leave us hanging.   Patrick Casale  25:36 I networked a lot. I blogged a lot. I embraced free time, because I kept thinking, This is why you did this, you wanted free time in your schedule, and now you have it and you feel scared. And I remember going to lunch with a colleague here in town and making the comment of, well, if this doesn't work out, I can always go back to my agency job. And she was like, absolutely not. That's never an option, do not think that way or you will fail. When I stopped thinking that way. I realized that I opened up space and energy and started to believe that I can become successful. And I believe that networking is one of the most important things you can do to build a successful private practice.   Curt Widhalm  26:20 Sometimes in hearing these conversations, you know, there's a percentage of this that does really come from privilege. And not everybody's going to be able to take that monetary leap some people's situations, you know, whether it's their home life, their student loan bills, any of this kind of stuff that keeps them stuck into one of these jobs. And yet, they're still grieving, they're still believing that they've got these steps, hearing stories, like, Oh, I worked out my 90 days, and then two thirds of my caseload just went away. What helps people in those situations that might not be quite there yet, but are also maybe teetering to the I'm going to be stuck in this position forever.   Patrick Casale  27:07 I'd say join a group practice, you know, go work for someone and make more money and work less hours, you know, you, you can still provide and take care of your needs. And still leave a setting that you don't feel like there are any other options for you know, you can work for some of these. I didn't want to say it out loud. These EAP contracts and these online organizations to I don't I don't love that mentality. I know y'all have done podcast episodes on it before. I just think they're a group practice, you can contract, you know, you can do contract work somewhere, there are options, you can start your practice at night and on the weekends. So it doesn't impact your day to day, you know, you can start to dip your toe, right, like, you don't have to just jump into it, you can simply step slowly into it, and start to see how it feels. work. You know, see some clients on Saturdays, a lot of people do that, at first see some clients in the evenings. You know, I think there are a lot of ways to do this and still maintain your day to day your employment, the stuff that pays the bills, the student loan debt, the health insurance, everything, everything that comes with it. And the recognition that not everyone's situation is the same.   Katie Vernoy  28:27 I understand your mixed reviews on some of these provider networks or or some of the online things. But I think there are some good ones and some that are unscrupulous. So I think that regardless whether it's a group practice or a provider network, or EAP is or those kinds of things you want to do the research because you could end up doing an EAP that pays you very little, you could end up in a worse situation with an unscrupulous online provider. And I think it's important to be able to really plan your exit, recognizing that this is the first step and, and I hear thinking about it now. And I think about my escape from community mental health, the exhaustion that is already in place and thinking about adding a full day of work or going somewhere after work in the evenings. And how overwhelming that seems. And so I think another piece of this is making sure that you kind of parse it down to the little tiny steps that you can take this little tiny steps have a clear goal. Because even doing that I feel like brings hope, right? I mean, you get that hope of like I have the plan. Maybe I'm having to work an extra hour or five hours or 10 hours a week, you know as you build up but I have a plan to exit and I think that can be very good. And so I want to just say yes it is a lot of work. But what you're saying Patrick is very sound like you need to have your exit plan and and if you can't eject from A system or you aren't ejected forcefully objected from a system with when it's not your choice, then you can set some of those milestones and those little goals where you can kind of do each of the little pieces so that you can start your practice. And especially now with telehealth being an option, there's a lot of things that you can do with very little overhead and with very little setup. And so connecting with someone like Patrick might be a great idea, if you're thinking you want to stick your toe into it, because you can set up in a day, a whole practice, you don't have to like go look for offices or find forms, like you can just use the tools that are there. So I would recommend kind of thinking through what are the steps you can take, because having an exit plan is so different when you're looking at additional work.   Patrick Casale  30:53 And so different if you're raising a family, or you have other responsibilities other than yourself. So just having to really balance that. And even Katie does such a good point, you know, like doing one thing a week even to check it off the list to just say, I'm working towards this, you know, like getting an employee identification number like deciding if you're going to take health insurance, like some of the decisions that you have to think about early on, but are easy to just cross off the list and make you feel like you're moving towards something.   Katie Vernoy  31:26 Yeah.   Curt Widhalm  31:27 For helping people to think beyond into that success mindset. How do you help encourage them to envision what their ideal practices are?   Patrick Casale  31:38 I like to always start with what is absolutely necessary, right? Like, we need to know differences in numbers. So numbers that I need to make, to pay the bills to keep the lights on to pay for food, right? Like that number has to be known. But I always like to ask people what they want out of this. And that doesn't always have to be monetary. That could be I only want to work three days a week. I want to see 25 clients a week between five days. I never want to work past 4pm. But it is about what do you value? What do you want out of this career. And I think that's really important, because it's not the same for everybody. And I asked a lot about travel about vacation time building and sick time building and time for mental health days, like how to start to do that. And people will always say like, I would, I would love to just have three weeks off a year. And I'm like, well, we can probably think a little bit bigger, because you're gonna make more money, so you can budget differently. And again, we have to take into account privilege, we have to take into account the fact that some people are going to work and see 50 clients a week. I'm not here to dictate that circumstance. But just to ask people, what do you want out of your business model? What do you want it to look like? Do you want more time for your family to want less time for your family? Do you why you know to have more hobbies? Do you know do you want to read more coffee shop time do you want four day weekends, three day weekends, like everyone's goals are so different, but they're also possible to you know, I privileged enough to take 12 weeks off a year and travel, I also have a partner that is able to support that that's not going to look like that for everybody. So if I, the biggest thing I get a lot is like I want a three day weekend every week, I never want to work Fridays. So be it great. That's a great goal. I think that we need to get back to really practicing self care and work life balance, not the work life balance that is discussed at our agency jobs, where we put a PTO request in and we get emails or text messages while we're on vacation.   Katie Vernoy  33:59 The piece that I heard there that I really like and I have to keep reminding myself, especially folks who have been so ingrained in an agency setup is that we can actually bake in what we want. We can we can bake in a three day weekend, we can bake in 12 weeks off, that's awesome. We can we can put those things together and determine what our practice has to look like. I mean, there is some there are some parameters that would we have to pay attention to if we we live and work in an area that can't support a $400 an hour session, then maybe we can't do that. We can't have you know, I'm gonna work, you know, five hours a week, 12 weeks off and make $200,000 like maybe we can't do that. But like there's there are reasonable parameters and even exciting parameters that we can bake in. And I think being able to be creative is impossible when you're still in the mix of committee. Mental Health. And so having that conversation, I really like that I like being able to say, Okay, what is it that you actually want? And recognizing that you set all the rest of the parameters, what you charge how many clients you see, you know, there's some stuff that is dictated by the market, but a lot of it, you still really dictate and can can set that together. And so I think that's a great idea. What is your ideal private practice? What have you baked in? What What can we all aspire to, because like, 12 weeks off, I'm like, That is amazing.   Patrick Casale  35:29 Yeah. And that's because I'm fortunate enough, right to not have to, like be as concerned financially. But my goal is also not to make $200,000 a year in private practice, I could, but I don't want to, I want to travel more and take more time off. And that's always been my goal. But I think what you just said is really hits the nail on the head is like, the more time and space you can give yourself, the more creative you can be. So my ideal practice right now is actually something I'm living, which is seeing eight ideal clients a week, running my group practice, and running my private practice and coaching business. So I can do a little bit of everything because I do, I am neurodivergent, I need a lot of stimulation, I need a lot of different things happening all the time. So I can not always be focused on clinical work, I can move into administrative work and leadership work and coaching work and do all of those things simultaneously. But that didn't happen right away. That took four years, five years to get to this point. But yeah, that that is my ideal situation right now.   Katie Vernoy  36:37 Nice.   Curt Widhalm  36:38 Where can people find out more about you and all of the stuff that you're doing,   36:43 they can find out about me at casalecoaching.com or at my facebook group, all things private practice.   Curt Widhalm  36:52 And we'll include links to those in our show notes. You can find those over at mcsg podcast calm. And you can also check out the therapy reimagined conference where Patrick will be joining us this September. And you can find out more about that at therapy reimagined conference calm for all of the latest updates, as well as following our social media. And we'll also include links to those in our show notes. And until next time, I'm Kurt Helms, Katie Vernoy. And Patrick. So   Katie Vernoy  37:22 thanks again to our sponsor, the Healthcasters   Curt Widhalm  37:25 Wanted to tell you guys a little bit of what's included in the health casters podcasting course it includes simple step by step videos to take your podcast from idea to one that generates income when it launches also includes cheat sheets and templates Dr. Melvin Varghese uses for the selling the couch podcast, whether it's scripts to reach out to guest templates to let guests know that podcast is live. The recently released the podcast episode tracker the simple sheet helps keep your podcast episodes organized, whether you want to reference them later or repurpose them for content in the future. You can also choose to upgrade the purchase of course the community of over 250 other therapists podcasts. This includes monthly group one on one coaching calls with Melvin and you can learn more about health casters, it's selling the couch comm join the health casters   Katie Vernoy  38:15 into the promo code therapy reimagined at checkout for $100 off the listed price. And just a reminder that sellingthecouch.com/jointhehealthcasters.   Announcer  38:25 Thank you for listening to the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide. Learn more about who we are and what we do and mtsgpodcast.com. You can also join us on Facebook and Twitter. And please don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any of our episodes.

An Incomplete List of Everything Wrong with Therapist Education An interview with Diane Gehart, LMFT, on what works in therapy and where the field is headed. Curt and Katie talk with Diane about the overwhelming amount of information new therapists must learn in school and how this impacts their confidence. We also explore how the field is moving towards synthesizing theories and how this will impact future clinicians. It's time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.   Interview with Diane Gehart, LMFT Diane Gehart, Ph.D. is Professor in the Marriage and Family Therapy and Counseling Programs at California State University, Northridge and has a private practice in Agoura Hills, California. She has authored several professional books including Mindfulness for Chocolate Lovers: A Lighthearted Way to Stress Less and Savor More Each Day, Mindfulness and Acceptance in Couple and Family Therapy Mastering Competencies in Family Therapy, Theory and Treatment Planning in Counseling and Psychotherapy. In this episode we talk about: Who Diane Gehart is and what she has (and continues) to contribute to the field. Diane discusses what is wrong with therapist education and how it impacts newer therapists. How we can help students feel more confident when they enter the field, while still providing a good education. The abundance of theories students need to learn in graduate school and how the future of the field will be synthesis of theories. How the synthesis of theories will impact testing for licensure. Diane discusses how focusing on client outcomes and finding quality training can support confidence in new clinicians. How cultural considerations can be included in the synthesis of theories. Using the client's reality/perspective to make therapy work, rather than focusing on interventions. Explore how different parts of the field (e.g., clinicians, researchers, educators) contribute to what is wrong with therapist education. The need for synthesized information to be more widely available to make more competent therapists. Balancing helping clinicians to feel more confident while also encouraging them to be self-motivated to learn. What are the best things clinicians can do right now to improve their confidence? Our Generous Sponsors: Healthcasters The Healthcasters is a podcasting course and community designed for therapists in private practice and therapists turned coaches + consultants that's supported the successful launch of over 270 podcasts. Wanted to tell you guys a little bit what's included in the Healthcasters podcasting course. It includes simple step by step videos to take your podcast from idea to one that generates income when it launches. Also includes cheatsheets and templates Melvin uses for the Selling The Couch podcast whether its scripts to reach out to guests or templates to let guests know a podcast is live.  We recently released the Podcast Episode Tracker.  This simple sheet helps you keep your podcast episodes organized whether you want to reference them later or re-purpose the content in the future.  You can also choose to upgrade after purchasing the course to a community of over 250 other therapist podcasts.  This also includes monthly group and 1 on 1 coaching calls with Melvin.  You can learn more about Healthcasters at sellingthecouch.com/jointhehealthcasters (enter the promo code "therapyreimagined" at checkout for $100 off the listed price). Resources mentioned: We've pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance! Diane Gehart Therapy That Works Mastering Competencies Mindfulness at Our Schools Diane on YouTube   Relevant Episodes: You DO NOT Have to be a Thought Leader Reigniting Therapy How to BE a Therapist Unlearning Very Bad Therapy Showing Up for Your Clients   Connect with us! Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined Conferences   Our consultation services: The Fifty-Minute Hour Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We're working on it. Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren't trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don't want to, but hey.   Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com www.therapyreimagined.com Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist's Group https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/ https://twitter.com/therapymovement https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/   Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/     Full Transcript (autogenerated): Curt Widhalm  00:00 This episode of the Modern Therapist Survival Guide is brought to you by The Healthcasters.   Katie Vernoy  00:04 The Healthcasters is a podcasting course and community designed for therapists and private practice and therapists turn coaches and consultants that supported the successful launch of over 270 podcasts. Learn more about The Healthcasters at sellingthecouch.com/jointhehealthcasters and enter the promo code therapyreimagined at checkout for $100 off the listed price.   Curt Widhalm  00:26 Listen at the end of the episode for more information about The Healthcasters.   Curt Widhalm  00:29 You're listening to the Modern Therapist Survival Guide where therapists live, breathe and practice as human beings to support you as a whole person and a therapist. Here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.   Curt Widhalm  00:45 Welcome back modern therapists this is the Modern Therapist Survival Guide. I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy. And this is the podcast about all things therapists things that we do the places our field is where it's going. And we are once again joined by one of our therapy reimagined 2021 speakers Dr. Diane Gehart LMFT talking about the future of psychotherapy. And this is something where we're really excited to always look forward of where we're going. And for our longtime listeners know that we kind of try to push the envelope here with the things that we do on the podcast with our conference. It's always wonderful to have like minded people, and not making lots of stupid jokes start this because Diane's my boss over at State University, Northridge. So thank you for joining us today. Thank you so much for having me.   Katie Vernoy  01:44 We're so excited to have you here. And we start each of our interviews with this question. Who are you? And what are you putting out into the world?     Diane Gehart  01:53 Wow, wow, that is a that's a big question. I'm going to try to keep it simple though. I'm Diane Gehart. I am a licensed marriage Family Therapist I have been a professor of family therapy for I'm coming up on my 25th year of teaching full time, I currently run the family therapy program at CSUN. And Curt is our amazing law & ethics instructors. So it's really a pleasure to be here. And yeah, and   Curt Widhalm  02:22 I'm just jumping in. I'm going to point out to one of our listeners, Dr. Ben Caldwell, She didn't mention you. Okay, go ahead. Okay, okay. Okay,   Diane Gehart  02:32 but you teach too la & ethics classes for me, and Ben only teaches one,   Curt Widhalm  02:36 so I'm twice as good, as bad, as valuable, as valuable to me.   Diane Gehart  02:45 Let me tell you, you two are the best of the best. And so we absolutely have the best law and ethics classes of any MFT program in the United States, I'm really sure of that. So yes, in addition to hiring some of the best faculty in the world, I do a lot of writing in the area around mental health theories. I've written textbooks, And I believe I'm the only person who's written mental health textbooks on both family therapy and counseling theories, which are actually two different worlds, if you're in the mental health world, that I'm really passionate about theories, and how therapists learn. I've done a lot of work around trying to create better ways for people to learn how to become therapists using competencies and simulation and all sorts of new things. So that's something a bit about me and what I do, what I put out in the world,   Curt Widhalm  03:32 As an educator that has been around for quite a while. Very loaded question to start out with here. But what's what's wrong with therapist education?   Diane Gehart  03:45 Wow, wow, wow. Yeah, it is, it is a big question. And I have, I've really been privileged, I think in my career, too. And I've had people say, Diane, how do you end up at the forefront of everything, and I really have been blessed and lucky. I did a lot of training early in my career. And it's really been fascinating to watch the evolution of what has happened over the last 20-30 years in the field. Because when I started my first degree with a master's degree in counseling, and you know, we learned about eight theories, evidence based treatment was not a thing, we hardly learned, we didn't learn about the brain and my grad program whatsoever. We even have a psycho forum class, you know, it was pretty much pick a theory that you like, learn it, you know, and when you graduated, you knew you'd go to all the conferences on this and you're done. You felt competent. We didn't have imposter syndrome back then. I mean, it was really different. And when I went to my MFT doctoral program, you know, again, it was about eight theories, I had to learn they overlap a lot with the counseling ones, pick one, get good at it, you know, and, you know, enjoy your career. So that's pretty much what it was like when I started and so I just finished Writing a state of the art, you know, master's program and family therapy that, you know, meets the national COAMFTE standards that meets California licensing standards. And that meets the needs of the stakeholders, the employers in which is LA County Mental Health preseason. So I've made everyone really happy. And there are about 25 different theories, some traditional, some evidence based that my students are learning. And it is amazing because my students are exceptionally well trained, not just because occurred, but we have an amazing faculty, it's an amazing curriculum. And when they leave, they are so confused, they have imposter syndrome. They they don't know where to start, and they're totally lost. And I sit here and I watch this because I know what it was like, where I started and what that look like. And now I'm looking at where students are today. And it's this cannot continue. It's kind of where I'm at. It's it's really, it's this bizarre thing where in some ways students are getting more information than ever, but they feel less and less competent. So it's this weird paradox. The way we have just we've been doing what we've been doing for years, and we just keep adding on adding on adding on. But there's no synthesis, there's no integration. And it's overwhelming students, especially at the Masters level,   Curt Widhalm  06:22 Katie, and I talk about problems in therapist training and education, we have been for several years here. And I've heard forever back to when we were students about you know, therapists need more training. And I've never heard it kind of putting the terms that you are putting it in here now of maybe, we're throwing too much at people. And that's what's leading to a lot of this problem as it's developing. What is possible as far as fixing this direction that we're going like, what can actually be done? You're familiar with all of these standards, you have, you know, a million different bosses, maybe not directly, but a bunch of people's requirements that you have to be what is actually possible to kind of change the momentum to helping people feel more confident entering into our fields, while still being well educated.   Diane Gehart  07:20 And that is the $10 million dollar question, because what we have is we have, we have licensing boards. And I think our licensing process needs to be totally overhauled. It just so happens I'm in a position in my career where because I've been thinking about retiring, moving to another state, I have to take the national MFT exam. I'm taking it actually on July 21, this summer. And I ended up having to learn all about the national MFT exam, which has such ancient theories in it that like, they actually have been taking those theories out of my textbook, and I'm like, Oh, my God, because I'm running a class on laugh your way to licensure. And I have just been shocked and slightly horrified at how much old information like if they really want you to learn symbolic experience, because they're great questions. It's really easy to write, you know, exam questions around symbolic experience with doing that anymore. Just newsflash both. So it's like surreal. It is like this trip back into the past when you look at our licensing exams, and then you have, so they're one piece of the puzzle. And yeah, kind of like educational programs have to prepare folks for licensure, but we have very little influence on what is on that exam. So that's one huge, very difficult piece of the puzzle to influence, you know, and then we have the accreditation standards, which I mean, they move very slowly, we have more influence on that, because they they're more stakeholders are able to give their you know, two cents. But still, it's a very slow process to move that. And then quite frankly, I've discovered as someone who directs a marriage family therapy program, it's hard to get faculty who trained up, you know, when I tell people you need to teach these newer theories, I get this deer on the head, like, but I don't know that theory. And I'm like, well bring yourself up. And this is a whole new, you know, situation. So the problem is we have these huge systems that are very hard to shift and change, that are very rooted in the past. And they are not evolving at the rate that practitioners need to be evolving. So it's really a very difficult thing to do. And I'll tell you, I'll be I'll be honest, I don't feel like it's going to be my role in the world. I know that someone else fix those systems. I mean, my solution has been as I page this other course that I've created, that it's synthesis, I think the answer is going to be synthesis because if you remember back to some of your You know, grad studies courses are two reasons the EU and you're listening to this new theory new, like, a lot like XYZ theory, a lot like, you know that that the theory will be honest to god truth is, and I'm going to say like it is yes, there's a lot more overlap than distinction between these theories. And we have to start boiling down the core concepts in the basic brain works very simple methods that are, it's, it's not even integration. I mean, we're past integration that was a couple decades ago, this is synthesis, we have to really extract from what we the knowledge base that we have, and put it into a very simple framework that a human being can use, because what we have now is almost impossible, the way we train our students and license people to the way they're supposed to be updating themselves. It's not, the pieces don't fit together nicely, we're gonna we have to synthesize this knowledge base in a much more coherent way.   Katie Vernoy  11:02 With this synthesize knowledge base, it seems like it would come down to very common interventions, I'm thinking kind of the kind of the common elements of therapy, and to me, it seems like that would be very helpful. And it would also mean that folks would then have to study differently for these licensing exams. Because we're very attached to these intricate theories with the titles that they have for the same thing, you know, they've renamed it save slightly tweaked it. And so to me, it seems like there would be a lot of pushback. So for the therapist, you're describing something that is very empowering, I learned what therapy is and what we commonly see as effective. And what we see on the educational side is bureaucracy and ego and hubris, holding into these very distinct theories that, you know, it just seems like well, I, you know, to keep my job I have to publish. And so now I'm going to create a theory. And now everybody's going to have to learn this theory. And I'm now committed to this theory, and I'm not going to let it go.   Diane Gehart  12:11 So, you know, I actually think there's a lot of different layers here. So I, I actually think I'm working right now on developing, I just call it therapy that works, because if you call it anything else, any theoretical term, we are so divisive. in this field, you're postmodern your system is or your, you know, your psychodynamic or your CBT. And that's, and then you're these little cancer all fighting with each other. And it's just like, it doesn't need to be like that I actually think you should be using every theory is, you know, what we're dealing with all of human suffering in this world, you know, and it is you need every bit of wisdom you can find. And so I think we've created a lot of artificial tensions and wars that are not actually helping us serve our clients, by, you know, dividing up into these little camps is kind of what it feels like to me. And, and so, you know, when I first started writing my textbooks, I was very deliberate in how I approached this because I wasn't a camp I really was, I'm, you know, in the postmodern world, that's, you know, kind of was my camp. And it was interesting, one of the parts of the postmodern world is this concept of appreciative inquiry, where you learn and use curiosity and really appreciating what's good about the others. And I very intentionally when I started writing, my textbook said, I am going to approach every single theory that I have, and I had biases, I absolutely did. With appreciative inquiry, somehow, these ideas were important enough to really stand out. And I'm going to figure out what it is about each single one, you know, and as I did that, I was really surprised, honestly, the how I found something really wise in each of these approaches over the years, and so on, begin to see a lot of these connections. And so I think, learning to appreciate those, but now we have so many, it's like you're lost, unless you're lucky like me, and you've had 30 years to slowly piece together the knowledge base of the field. For those who are coming into this. It's just one on all overwhelming, I think for everybody. So when it's, you know, I actually think we're at a place where we can, you know, create structures. It's more like a method where you take out even most of that theoretical language, because there actually is a skeleton underneath it all I can't quite describe but I think in a podcast, but there is a skeleton, I call it, it's like that you can begin to see. And every single theory kind of maps on top of this basic skeleton and when you approach it that way, you begin to see those connections. And so it's much easier to make sense of the many sources of wisdom and knowledge. We have in this field   Curt Widhalm  15:01 almost kind of common factors of building from there that there's many factors that we use, regardless of what we do. And the rest is kind of the seasonings on in the structure of a plate of food here. Looking at this from where we can come from kind of this basic place, you know, taking this from the idealistic, you know, and how should we be trained? Like, okay, that's gonna be, you know, decades in the making of getting a bunch of disagreeable people to agree on changing all of these systems. What can therapists do for themselves to not get sucked into all of those traps, and all of those arguments to follow a good individual training path that they can feel confident and not constantly be worried about? What I don't know, and falling into imposter syndrome?     Diane Gehart  15:59 Well, you know, I think, finding a very solid, broad method of working, that really serves your clients that really notice whether or not you're making a difference, like therapy should have results actually relatively quickly in treatment, you know, and so I think really focusing not just do like the theory, are you having a good time? Do you feel good about yourself? But like, are, are things changing for your clients, and to really focus on outcomes is one piece and then to, you know, really be thoughtful about what you get yourself trained in? And to learn to really be conscious about learning skill sets and making sure they work? Because the truth is, you know, looking at the common factors, right, you know, any therapy model out there just about can deliver decent outcomes. And the questions is, are you able to do that? And how do you put yourself in a position to do that well, and consistently.   Katie Vernoy  17:10 So there's an assessment piece, but this other angle that I'm looking at, because when we go to common factors, it seems like it's very, very clear, they're very broad, they're so broad that that I think that it's, you know, it's something that also can be a little bit confusing to just when it's so broad, right?   Diane Gehart  17:27 Yes, yeah, common factors is too broad to be useful in the room at this point in history.   Katie Vernoy  17:32 But when you were talking about the skeleton, and that all of these theories kind of fall on this same skeleton, and, and for me, and I guess this is just for my head, when I think about kind of things that are very systemic can also be impacting the skeleton. And so if we're looking at whether it's systemic bias or oppression, when we're looking at those types of things, I'm wondering if if, in creating the actual skeleton of what works and and separating out the language, if that's a way to decrease bias, or if it's already baked in? And if oppression is already baked? In?   Diane Gehart  18:08 Yes, yeah. I mean, in my in my system that I've been developing, therapy that works, I don't have a better name. Because whatever I come up with, I know someone's gonna hate it for some reason. But yeah, so I, you know, there's way to analyze what happens behaviorally, emotionally, cognitively, and then at the societal level. And so to put that piece in as the fourth kind of level when you whenever you're analyzing or assessing what's going on with a client, but is that kind of answering what your I think it is?     Katie Vernoy  18:37 I mean, I think for me, it's it's something where so much of our history as a profession has been guided by   Curt Widhalm  18:45 hierarchy, structural sort of differences.   Katie Vernoy  18:50 You can continue talking, Curt, I was agree.   Curt Widhalm  18:54 It's this fundamental shift of really empowering clients to be in control of some of this process to it's shifting that hierarchical power that, you know, we can spend, you know, hours and hours talking about the roles of transference and countertransference. And what's left unsaid and to boil it back to and you should totally trademark therapy that works. And then be argued with like the, you know, 3% of cases where it didn't. But it's embracing where mental health field has really common as far as who dictates when therapy works. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. We're awkwardly not stating a question. That's just more of Yes.   Diane Gehart  19:46 Yeah, and if you look at what really works, and there's a ton of research behind this is you have to work within the clients reality. It has to work for them. I mean, it does have to be the client. I talked to When I when I, when I teach this approach I talk about like entering the client's reality, it's like their holodeck, and you've got to go into their holodeck into their reality to understand what is going to work from where they're standing. It's one of the things I've been realizing is in this class that I'm teaching therapy that works. I'm like, if it's forcing me to identify what I actually do in the room, and I realized, what I've done is I literally turn theories inside out. And that I literally take this because the theories are written from the, like a therapist looking at a client, that's how the theories are written. But if you really want them to work, well, you have to take the theory and like flip it inside out. And you have to apply it from within the clients construction of the world is the client under see sees it, and then it works like magic. But if you're trying to it's like squinting, fitting for the square peg in a round hole, right, that's kind of what we've been doing. And if the client will go with our reality, that's great. But if they don't, which many of them don't, then it just worked so much smoother, if you can take the knowledge we have, and have it like, enter into the clients make sense within the clients world. And it's like, I can only describe it as like flipping it inside out.   Katie Vernoy  21:19 I think that's so important, because with a lot of theories, and maybe this is, you know, getting back into the awkward space, but it seems like a lot of theories assume we know. And there's that kind of paternalistic, we know what's best for the client. And what you're describing is really getting into the, to the space into the holodeck of the client, and really understanding from their perspective. But to do that, we have to come from a very humble and curious place, and be able to really see from their perspective, which requires so much sitting back and and active exploration versus doing interventions on clients.   Diane Gehart  22:01 Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Doing interventions on clients is the least efficient way to go about this work. It just really is. I really believe, I guess what we're describing here is, you know, obviously, I'm trained, you know, in collaborative therapy, it's one of my specialty, and it is really still my home base. But it is so fascinating to me, if you just slow down like you described and become curious about, wow, your client makes sense of life interprets life, just asking those questions, having a client put that into words, because most of us don't put it into words in our own head, we're not aware of it. So someone asks us and we begin to like put all those pieces together. I really think over 80% of what I do is just that. And you know, there are other interventions that are important. You know, my favorite one to point out to everyone is the research is like exposure is the treatment for OCD folks. Like that's all that works, right. So there are places where you need to be much more intentional about that. But it is fascinating how just slowing down being curious, entering and really under as you come to understand how the client makes sense of their life. So many things just unravel and problems get resolved or shift in pretty magical ways. So that the work of the end is like sweeping up, you know, a little bit of math on the floor, and what it feels like it's the leftovers, but it's so clear what you need to do.   Curt Widhalm  23:30 And a lot of this seems to be driven by the really siloed parts of our worlds, the researchers who, as Katie pointed out earlier, need to keep their jobs by publishing research and things get really boiled down there. And then the research has to inform the education so that the education is based on something and then students and new therapists get thrown out into the real world. And then they experience what you're talking about, which is like, Oh, that's only like 20% of what's actually going on in the room. Is there ways to make these parts of the field less siloed, to where the researchers actually know what it's like to sit across from people who are more complex than one diagnoses and who talk about things more than very specific symptoms of that diagnoses? To actually being able to see what the rest of complex human behavior is like.       Diane Gehart  24:30 Wow, I mean, unfortunately, as over the years I've been in the field, it's become more and more siloed in the beginning, in the beginning when I was really old. And the last century is my kids are like you were alive in the century. Yeah, I was alive. Yep.   Curt Widhalm  24:46 Yep. Yep. I had a client recently as a middle schooler, who referred to the 90s as the late 1900s. And I was   Katie Vernoy  24:58 Oh dear,   Diane Gehart  24:59 yeah. Yeah. So in the last century, it was possible to be a scholar practitioner, like it was this hyphenated thing. It was foundational, especially for doctoral programs as the model, they were all supposed to be teaching us Lalalalala. But in the last 1020 years, we really said that's not possible anymore. Because if you're going to do a clinical trial, ie the skill set it takes to run a clinical trial, you know, which is what samsa and NIH and that's like the gold standard to do that is a full time job. And that skill set is so different and is so advanced, if they don't have time to be a practitioner, and to do quality research in the 21st century, what's expected and so it's pulling us further and further apart actually is, is kind of where we're going. Now, I do think research really has moved the food field forward in important ways. And we really need to stay connected with the evidence base, like when I went to school, it was really considered ethical. And I guess Kurt can correct me if I'm wrong on this, it ethical to use whatever theory you thought would be great, or whatever your theory of choice was to breed OCD, I don't think that's ethical anymore, because the research is so clear about what works and what doesn't. And so, so that really puts us in, I think, in a somewhat difficult, you know, spot with that sort of thing. And so, again, we have to take all of that knowledge, kind of getting back to your question, Kurt is in Reese, as well as a theory need to be synthesized, the research needs to be synthesized. And it really can be it really, it really can be I do believe I have taken a whole DSM. I've created this table, I don't know, it's probably six, eight pages long. But and I have synthesize what the research says works for each of the different diagnoses. I mean, this should be widely available. I know I'm going to work on a book. But still, I mean, we we need to get boiled down to relatively simple, you know, structures and information. And so we have to the synthesis of research, the synthesis of our theories, I also think a huge missing gaping hole in the whole field of psychotherapy is there's a lot of motivational research on like how to just set a goal and achieve it, which we don't even have trickling into our programs, you know, or flowing into the work that we do, which is another very important actually stream of knowledge that I think we need more of in our field.   Curt Widhalm  27:39 And to answer the ethics question that you're asking here is parts of the ethics that most people don't even bother to read is the preambles, which is basically like we do our things based on science. And it's being able to distill and synthesize what the science is that, again, speaks back to what you were talking about earlier, of not overwhelming people and being able to help people in a competency based way of being able to take this education and be able to implement it with people, as clients as explorers as being able to have those timely interventions rather than just kind of like coming in overwhelmed feeling like I have to do something that needs to be justified in this note. And so I'm going to throw an intervention whether or not it fits and hope that nobody audit says,   Diane Gehart  28:41 Yeah, that is not that's not a good place for us to be, I think, as a profession, I'd say we too.   Katie Vernoy  28:49 Yeah, when I'm listening to this, I like the idea of distilling things down to synthesizing them into competency based steps, those types of things. I also recognize that there's an evidence base that we want to pay attention to, I guess the the place I get held up a little bit, and this is something where I think there's a an important tension, I think it's gone too far, one direction, and I probably was being educated in a similar time where there was a theories. And so it seems very doable to me. And I'm not, I'm not facing the 20 theories, right. So I fully recognize my bias. But there is an importance for therapists to also make some of the decisions on their own. And and I worry that if we distill these things down too far, that therapists will be doing things they don't necessarily have the background with the evidence base and why they're doing what they're doing. And that, to me, potentially, is problematic if the the research base has its own issues, right. I mean, I don't know if I'm asking an intelligent question here. But I think when we're when we're trying to simplify something down to teach people how to do a thing. I think there still is value and Having an understanding of the theoretical underpinnings and the the broad complexity of what's behind it all? And so how do I guess I guess the question is, how do you hold that tension? If obsoleting this new this Yeah, education that doesn't seem to exist? Yes.   Diane Gehart  30:16 Well, you know, I would say that I'm with you on that, because I'm a total theory nerd. And I can read theory forever. And I love theory. And so and I do think knowing, you know, reading, I encourage when people are saying, My, my license, or course I said, If you have time, I want you to I give them a reading list of like, 10 bucks. I'm like, No, the voices know that. Understand that. So I definitely think understanding the philosophy, but I think, and especially at the coral level, yes, we can throw them 20 theories, I'm good with that. They've got whatever 120 units, and they need to know the difference between Milan systemic strategic and MRI. But at the Masters level, you know, understanding strategic structural hyphenated, you know, together, as one basic theory is going in, you can, you know, and to understand those two, really, most people in practice, use both of them together, you know, but on the licensing exam, because it's easier to write questions, we have people like memorizing and these tiny little boxes. And so we need to find, like a happy middle ground, because yes, you'll, you'll always be reading lots of theory in this field, there's no way to get I don't think, in my opinion, and you should be reading lots of research, too. But it's creating structures, that it's where it's humanly possible for people to take in that information. It's almost it's ironic that at a time in history, where everyone's attention span is shorter, and shorter, and smaller and smaller, we are throwing more and more and more at people. And it none of it sticking in a meaningful way. And so we have to find, I think we really need to start distinguishing between the master's and doctoral level of training, and what is learned at each level. But, you know, I, here I am with 30 years of experience in training, and I have been training trainers for like, 20 years, right. And I'm looking at what is on the list of to know, for the licensing exam, which you know, you do that early in your career, and you kind of forget about it, but having to go back and do it has been so educational. I'm like, this is insane. This is I look at the knowledge statement. And I'm like, This isn't like humanly possible. This is awful. And I am even telling some of my students like 10% of the stuff like you would have to study so many hours to be able to analyze any research study they possibly could put in front of you. It's not worth it missed those, you just need to get a 70%. Like, don't even worry about it. So we it's like it's like throwing we're throwing everything, you know, at these poor folks taking exams and expecting them to memorize far more than is we know, based on our new neurobiology is really reasonable to be expecting.   Curt Widhalm  32:54 Where can people practically go from here, when it comes to getting better and working with our clients?   Diane Gehart  33:02 Well, I do think you need to really think about and you know, your individual journey as a clinician and getting to how you want to move forward, because there are options, there are different options. But in general, I think, learning one really solid theory, well, that really makes sense. And that you can actually get training in you know, I talked to some people who claim that there's a therapist, I'm like, which could you training, and they're like, Oh, I read some books, I'm like, that that's not training folks. You need to really invest in a program that will be, you know, intense in depth where you learn some skills. And so there are definitely a number of them out there. But I think really making sure and just focusing on that not getting distracted by everyone else telling you what else you should be doing or my bet what might be better, like pick one stick with it, do it well master that and look for results.   Katie Vernoy  34:01 So there's a lot that you were talking about that was either in development or that you've already created and and so I'm sure that people would want to get in touch with you and talk through these things with you. So where can people find you?   Diane Gehart  34:15 Well, I have started what I call the Institute for therapy that works and so you can find it at therapythatworksInstitute.com or Dianegehart.com, I do have a course you know where I actually teach this method, it's the best word I can come up with the moment for trying to really find a way of working that synthesizes uses everything you know, you can pick whatever other theories you want to use, but to really create a holistic structure from beginning to end that really grounds folks and what they're doing so I'm very excited about that. And it's funny because that's the I have one side of this one project that's synthesizing every now all the knowledge and it's really funny. On the other hand, I do have this laugh, your way to license your course that is going to teach you all the different silos that you need to know. And it's a very kind of bizarre, actually as the instructor of both courses. One is how many little teeny tiny theories Can I teach you? And then where's the master theory? So, I offer both options.   Curt Widhalm  35:14 We will include links to those in our show notes. You can find those at MTSGpodcast.com. And you can check out the therapy reimagined conference where Dr. Gehart will be helping us out and talking about the future of therapy there. You can find out more information about that and all the latest up to date news at therapyreimaginedconference.com or follow us on our social media. And until next time, I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy and Dr. Diane Gehart.   Katie Vernoy  35:45 Thanks again to our sponsor, The Healthcasters   Curt Widhalm  35:48 I wanted to tell you guys a little bit of what's included in The Healthcasters podcasting course it includes simple step by step videos to take your podcast from idea to one that generates income when it launches also includes cheat sheets and templates Dr. Melvin Varghese uses for the selling the couch podcast, whether it's scripts to reach out to guests templates to let guests know that podcast is live. The recently released the podcast episode tracker the simple sheet helps keep your podcast episodes organized, whether you want to reference them later or repurpose them for content in the future. You can also choose to upgrade the purchase of course the community of over 250 other therapists podcasts. This includes a monthly group one on one coaching calls with Melvin and you can learn more about The Healthcasters, it's selling the couch comm join The Healthcasters   Katie Vernoy  36:38 Enter the promo code therapyreimagined at checkout for $100 off the listed price at sellingthecouch.com/jointhehealthcasters.   Curt Widhalm  36:48 Thank you for listening to the modern therapists Survival Guide. Learn more about who we are and what we do at MTSGpodcast.com. You can also join us on Facebook and Twitter. And please don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any of our episodes.

Psychiatric Crises in the Emergency Room Continuing our series on Fixing Mental Healthcare in America. An interview with Kesy Yoon, LMHC and James McMahill, LMFT, two Modern Therapists with work experience in the United States hospital mental health system. Curt and Katie talk with Kesy and James about their perspective on the emergency room as an entry point (and revolving door) for mental health treatment. We look at the bureaucracy, the funding issues, and the difficulty in providing adequate care in these settings. We also discuss the ideal of a psychiatric ER, to improve mental health treatment for those in crisis.   It's time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age. Interview with Kesy Yoon, LMHC and James McMahill, LMFT Kesy Yoon, LMHC: As a Licensed Mental Health Counselor (LMHC), I am dedicated to helping my clients understand who they are and how they fit into the world around them. Over the past six years, I have worked in a variety of mental health settings with individuals from all walks of life. Currently, I work with clients struggling with anxiety, perfectionism, trauma, and major life transitions. Over the course of my career, I have developed a specialty in working with the Asian American Pacific Islander (AAPI) 1st generation population. My work in this area is informed by my own personal experience with navigating the differences between an American upbringing and traditional Asian values. I enjoy working with AAPI clients to identify solutions to improve quality of life while honoring important cultural values and needs. Therapy is dynamic and my style is centered upon empowerment and hope. I show up as a human first, therapist second. As a counselor, I believe that every individual is a unique and complicated being; therefore, I do not have one uniform approach. I draw inspiration from several evidence-based modalities such as EMDR, Solution Focused Therapy and Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. I am also trained in the EMDR modality and I am currently in the process of EMDR Certification. James McMahill, LMFT: I am an LMFT in CA and MN specializing in crisis care for those struggling with psychosis, severe depression, PTSD and suicidality. The majority of my clinical experience has been in crisis work and includes all ages, from children and adolescents in inpatient, TAY and adults in county outpatient clinics, and as a member of a Geri Psyche urgent response team. While in San Diego, I was the Program Director for Heartland Wellness Recovery Center, a county outpatient program serving SPMI clients in East County, San Diego. Currently, I am a team member for a CRT (Crisis Response Team) in Carver County, MN, and spend much of my clinical time in Emergency Rooms or responding to community or Law Enforcement mental health crises. I may also be commonly found co moderating Therapists in Private Practice (TIPP) on Facebook, with my wife Namrata. In this episode we talk about: Continuing our special series on Fixing Mental Healthcare in America How emergency rooms become a part of the mental health system The role of emergency rooms as the first door for folks with a mental health crisis It can be a catchall and revolving door for some with longer term mental health concerns The challenges and overwhelm when someone comes into the ER The goals that emergency rooms can have when someone comes in with a psychiatric crisis The differences in ERs (whether they have psychiatric facilities or whether they transfer to other facilities) The challenges in placing clients in psychiatric inpatient care The revolving door – developing relationships and losing hope Potential legislation changes that could increase time for care Conflicting goals at different levels of the hospital and the hot potato syndrome Training of the emergency room staff, medical staff, law enforcement, fire services The criminogenic interpretation of behavior that can hinder law enforcement and seeing a patient as someone needing help The importance of patience in managing psychiatric crises Interacting with Law Enforcement in these situations Responses to the “mental health” being touted as the solution for mass shootings Challenges with reimbursement and insurance coverage Some solutions for smoother processes during psychiatric emergencies, ideas for ideal planning and training   Our Generous Sponsor: The Healthcasters The Healthcasters is a podcasting course and community designed for therapists in private practice and therapists turned coaches + consultants that's supported the successful launch of over 270 podcasts. Wanted to tell you guys a little bit what's included in the Healthcasters podcasting course. It includes simple step by step videos to take your podcast from idea to one that generates income when it launches. Also includes cheatsheets and templates Melvin uses for the Selling The Couch podcast whether its scripts to reach out to guests or templates to let guests know a podcast is live.  We recently released the Podcast Episode Tracker.  This simple sheet helps you keep your podcast episodes organized whether you want to reference them later or re-purpose the content in the future.  You can also choose to upgrade after purchasing the course to a community of over 250 other therapist podcasts.  This also includes monthly group and 1 on 1 coaching calls with Melvin.  You can learn more about Healthcasters at sellingthecouch.com/jointhehealthcasters (enter the promo code "therapyreimagined" at checkout for $100 off the listed price).   Resources mentioned: We've pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance! RAND Report: How to Transform the US Mental Health System Los Angeles Times Op-Ed: Our mental health laws are failing Laura's Law LPS: Lanterman-Petris-Short Law   Relevant Episodes: Fixing Mental Healthcare in America Serious Mental Illness and Homelessness   Connect with us! Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group Join us for Therapy Reimagined 2021   Our consultation services: The Fifty-Minute Hour Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We're working on it. Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren't trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don't want to, but hey.   Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com www.therapyreimagined.com Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist's Group https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/ https://twitter.com/therapymovement https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/   Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/   Transcripts (autogenerated)   Curt Widhalm  00:00 This episode of the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide is brought to you by Healthcasters.   Katie Vernoy  00:04 The health casters is a podcasting course and community designed for therapists in private practice and therapists turned coaches and consultants that supported the successful launch of over 270 podcasts. Learn more about the health casters at sellingthecouch.com/jointhehealthcasters and enter the promo code therapy reimagined at checkout for $100 off the listed price.   Curt Widhalm  00:26 Listen at the end of the episode for more information about healthcasters.   Announcer  00:29 You're listening to the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide where therapists live, breathe and practice as human beings to support you as a whole person and a therapist. Here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.   Curt Widhalm  00:45 Welcome back modern therapists This is the modern therapist Survival Guide. I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy. And this is part three of our special series fixing mental health care in America. And if you have not yet listened to parts one and two, please go back and listen to those and we'll include links to those in our show notes over at mtsgpodcast.com. When we look at mental health care in America, part of what Katie and I were looking at is the various ways that people needing mental health services interact with all the various systems and today's episode we're focusing on psychiatric emergencies and the ways that clients, patients, people in general in psychiatric emergency situations and up in the emergency room. And so our guest today, once again, interviewed separately spliced together so our guests are James with me Hill, who works in Minnesota and Casey Yoon, who formerly worked in an emergency room in Los Angeles, California. We are joined by James McMahill, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist.   James McMahill  02:04 Currently I'm in Crisis Response Team in Carver county in Minnesota, what's up Western suburb just right outside of the Twin Cities,   Katie Vernoy  02:11 how do emergency rooms end up being a part of the mental health system   James McMahill  02:17 I have such as arranged experience from having conversations like these about emergency rooms or about law enforcement, you know, because each system is such a fingerprint from one another one er is so distinctly different from another er my experience when I was a director of an outpatient program in San Diego is so different from what I experienced on a day to day basis in the Midwest, for the most part of what I experienced as a clinician, it is a it's essentially a holding place for someone who has usually come in for a medical issue. And then is witnessed by the attending MD or nurse to also be endorsing an issue that's synonymous with a mental health concern. And in the two ers in particular that I work with, they have become so used to referring out to the crisis team that even if someone is coming in and stating that they're experiencing depression or anxiety in any way, generally will lead to a mental health assessment by the crisis team. Once that's completed, and we've made a recommendation, then the ER becomes much more of a complicated place, because then they're kind of, particularly if we're recommending an inpatient like treatment program, then the client is just kind of hanging out we are until we are able to secure a program for their ongoing mental health care. And so there's this kind of tension following a disposition between the crisis teams and other hospitals who have short term residential or short term behavioral health units, and the two ers that we serve and who do not have behavioral health units in trying to get them to an appropriate level of care kind of as soon as possible. Because the ER is always concerned about how many beds are available, who's coming in what the tenor and the mood of the unit is. And so it's kind of a holding place for that moment.   Curt Widhalm  04:12 We're also joined by Kesy Yoon lpcc, talking about some of the experiences of working in emergency departments when it comes to mental health. So thank you very much for joining us and spending some time tell us how mergency rooms work as part of the mental health system.   Kesy Yoon  04:30 My experience, the emergency room is often the first kind of net or door into a line of resources for mental health in the community. It can be kind of the first step that patients and their families or people take when someone's having a mental health crisis. But on the other hand, I've also seen the ER function as a dead catch all net for individuals whom the system doesn't know what to do with. And so sometimes it's the first door that First kind of introduction to mental health and resources. But then it also becomes kind of this catch all, though, the person that's in transition or can't utilize their resources or in between resources, they also begin to use the emergency room as well.   Curt Widhalm  05:16 So what do you see when it comes to? There's somebody brought in by law enforcement, it's typically under a 5150 type situation. Walk me through what that might look like, if we were observing this from somebody entering the door, working through the emergency department staffing, tell the psych staff gets there. What is this experience like for somebody going through this kind of a crisis?   Kesy Yoon  05:43 That's a great question. I have often wondered that how alarming it must be depending on what symptoms have been presented. But there was a lot of noise and a lot of chaos when you come into the ER, depending on the day, but most of the time, that's what's going on. So you're coming in, usually, with law enforcement or fire, you're coming to the double doors, you're not coming to the waiting room, you're not being triage the traditional way. You're coming in, and everyone's looking at you, right, because the tension is shifting. It's just busy. And on top of that, you know, you're getting rushed through triage. And I think things are happening so fast. And I've often wondered how it must feel to be someone who's experiencing a mental health crises, to then be to be in a situation, it's difficult for a person who's not experiencing a mental health crisis.   Katie Vernoy  06:31 I was thinking that exactly. And even if somebody is coming in with some sort of an injury or a severe illness, they might also be having a mental health crisis as well. But when the primary symptoms are psychosis, or suicidality, or homicide, ality, like, it seems like it would be hugely disorienting,   Kesy Yoon  06:49 yes. And then your, your triage, you're put into a bed, and they tell you a bunch of commands, you know, change into a gown, they go for shoes, your stuff is taken away, and then you're maybe left alone. And then the doctor takes however much time to come see you. They're asking you a bunch of questions. And then sometimes you might get visited by a social worker, if you're lucky, you'll get a kind nurse who has some idea of what you're going through. And then after all of that, all the questions, all the stuff, all your stuff has been taken away, you're essentially told that you're on this 5150 dennis is quiet, you know, the only people that come in to check in US shift change. If you're in restraints, maybe someone comes every 15 minutes to check on you, and then kneels and then you're just waiting, like, after all of that barrage of communication, then it's just quiet for however, the rest of the time you're in the ER.   Katie Vernoy  07:43 So that sounds really overwhelming. I could especially imagine for folks who are having psychosis or other psychotic symptoms, like it would just seem like, especially I just your stuff getting taken, you know, like, Yeah, wow, you know, just such a, I don't even though the right word, just very evolved a very vulnerable time. Right. You're, you're rushed in, you've got all this stuff happening. What is the goal? I mean, obviously, there's an assessment to get to the 5050. But what's the stated goal for the next 72 hours? For these folks?   Kesy Yoon  08:19 I think it depends on the hospital. So if you're a designated LPS facility, which means essentially, you have a locked inpatient unit, your goal is to wait until a bed becomes available, if you meet the criteria, which is you know, this whole other broad maze of things. If you're not at an LPs designated hospital that hasn't locked psychiatric unit, then you're waiting to be transferred. And even those kind of progress updates are very few and far between. But I just wonder about that, too. Right? You come in or your stuff is taken, you're told that you're waiting for a bed somewhere else? I mean, what if you have no idea where you even are, right? You wandered somewhere in a psychotic, just mess, and then now you're kind of coming to and then they're telling you Oh, we're going to ship you to some hospital that's 40 miles away, you don't know anyone. So just wait for that you can deal with   Curt Widhalm  09:10 on this piece about trying to get people placed when somebody has entered into an emergency room. There's a whole bunch of different departments who are either responding on the emergency side waiting for psychiatric to come in? What's the turnaround to getting somebody into one of these programs that you're talking about?   James McMahill  09:30 I mean, that really waxes and wanes? It depends on kind of that bell curve of utilization. You know, usually as you approach the weekend, the ability to get someone into a short term bhcu goes, maybe it goes way, way down, it's a lot more difficult. So it really just depends on what's going on out in the system. You know, we have a database that shows all the available hospitals, all the available programs and all of the available beds. And so once we've made that determination, a recommendation for an inpatient program and the attending physician agrees with that decision. Then it still rests on the crisis team to do quote unquote, a bed search, which is to page the different programs within the region to try to find someone availability, we will do our behavioral health assessment in that moment. And until we get that completed in a way that's representative about what's going on with the client and his best way as possible, the clients just going to be kind of hanging out there in the ER, and then we make that presentation of the behavioral health assessment, to the different programs to review, then it is completely up to the whims in the mood of the different behavioral health units that we are sending that packet to for review, to determine whether or not facing that that client would be a good fit, or not a good fit. And so there's this odd kind of back and forth between, oh, my goodness, you know, this person has got a lot of severe issues versus and this isn't as big of a problem for me as maybe some of the other clinicians have, do I try to write this in a scalable way? So we don't get the person who's reviewing the client to be like, no, we're not, we're not going to be taken someone who's physically aggressive and struggling with schizophrenia, or any kind of psychosis. So it is really difficult to kind of find that balance between Okay, we've we've addressed the emergency situation, we've got backing by the attending physician. And now our job is essentially to find a place that will accept that client. And that's completely based upon our write up, it's based upon our ability to communicate with the behavioral health unit in a friendly and charismatic way to kind of get them in the mood to like to, to accept the client, and also just what the complications of the system are at that time.   Katie Vernoy  11:46 What has been your experience with the kind of revolving door I think all of us have kind of heard about the ER being used, both for medical, but it also sounds like mental health crises, like that's where care happens. You know, the people just that revolving door, this is the catch all the lending? Yeah. For folks. What has been your experience of that? What does that actually look like?   Kesy Yoon  12:06 I think it depends on the relationship with the client has with the staff, to be honest, you know, I think there's some clients who utilize the revolving door of the ER, and it's almost like, it's a homecoming every month, like, oh, they're back. Like, they know the system, right? That's the kind of client that's not going to complain, they're gonna give up their possessions willingly, they'll do all the labs, they get it, you know, but some clients are more difficult, more aggressive. And it just, it almost becomes not this mentality of Oh, we can treat them like crap, because they they come here all the time, you know, versus the kind of clown comes in, and they get treated a little bit better, because they might treat the staff better. For me, it's difficult because it almost compels this sense of defeat, like, they're back again, I thought they got connected with services. So I'm torn. There's some clients where I did, it's almost like you don't mind when they come back, because they know how to operate and you almost enjoy seeing them and catching up with them, right. But there's also a large majority where it's difficult, and it's difficult not to become resentful and think, Oh, well, this patient's just abusing the system and abusing our resources. It's not that you don't want to help. But I think when certain clients come in every month, you assume that they either don't want the help, or yet you assume they don't want the hope. And so you don't advocate for them, really, you're just trying to, you're waiting for them also to get transferred upstairs, because you just think to yourself, oh, you'll be back anyways, you're not really going to change, you're not really going to get help or seek treatment.   James McMahill  13:42 Yeah, absolutely. I think that that's a much larger issue, or at least it was for me in Southern California than it is in Minnesota. It really impacts those who are unable to advocate for themselves who are homeless, who are untreated, in a much different way than it does the western suburbs of Minnesota, there isn't a ton of homelessness in the suburbs of Minnesota, the response of those who would be picking folks up and doing emergency transports, for example. It's just a lot different depending on what kind of er system that you're working with. So when I was in San Diego, it was a much bigger issue. We had folks who would be picked up by perks or who would be picked up by law enforcement on a weekly basis to the point where they would become regulars in the ER and regulars in the short term, bH USD in the area. And that in itself also creates kind of this interesting relationship because when when people become known in ers and their high acuity, but also like presenting with the high degree of affability there's almost a lower bar for those folks to be admitted into the ER and there's this kind of friendship relationship. Oh, so and so was here again, come on in Yeah, don't worry about it get up all taken care of. And yet there's nothing after that, really, for those folks who unpaired to long term services, regardless if that's because just voluntarily they feel better once they get out of the ER, and they've had their immediate needs met, and they don't want to engage in any kind of outpatient programming or act level programming. And so I know that there's a lot of discussion, a lot of work going on right now with quote, unquote, involuntary outpatient programs or mandated outpatient programs, particularly in Southern California. I don't see that as much in Minnesota, as I did in Southern California.   Curt Widhalm  15:38 In an earlier part of this series, Senator Henry stern was talking about expanding the 50 to 50 part of the law and being able to hold some of these clients longer and beyond freedom and freedom of being able to essentially add a week a couple of weeks that would have assuming under his system would be reimbursed for the hospital. With more time and some of this treatment, do you think that that would help to alleviate some of the revolving door aspects that we see that if so much of this priority seems to be patch them up and ship them off? Right, right. What is treatment in these situations, some of these repeat customers that you've seen, just in some of your experience? Is there just that little bit more of stability that would alter their lives?   Kesy Yoon  16:32 Yeah, I think the time, I definitely think it would help with stability and stabilizing the symptoms, or maybe just getting the right mix of medications for certain patients. And then they could also be watching monitor, see if they have side effects. I think the other part too, is that it gives a chance for the case manager or the discharge planner, to try and work out Bible placement for some of these folks, you know, I think it's difficult to try to find someone a place to live, if they're only in the hospital for let's just say 72 hour whole three days to to have them interviewed assessed by someone from a home and then for them to be accepted. Yes, I know, it's there waiting, essentially, in the inpatient unit. But at least they have some time, you know, it's not so hurried, and the case manager can really work on, let's find his personal home that they're not going to get kicked out of, or that we can hopefully pay for rent for a little bit longer than a week or so.   Curt Widhalm  17:29 There can be a bunch of different goals, depending on who's working within the mental health system, you kind of have a hot potato syndrome of this particular client is too difficult where for estimate our program or funding goals, this can happen between administration and treatment. How do you in your experience, how have you seen this kind of stuff played out?   James McMahill  17:55 It's a constant battle against the idea of Yes, I see that they need help. But no, this isn't the appropriate place for them to get that. And so you see that across modalities, you see that across presentations, you see that across programs, who have identified as having a specific scope. I know I experienced that on a daily basis as a administrator of an outpatient program when dealing with someone who, at the time we were wrangling with the idea of is this person substance primary, or is this person mental health primary? And so there was often kind of that passing back and forth between programs of Yes, I understand. But that person doesn't feel appropriate to our program. From an emergency room standpoint, some similar things go on, but it's much more about the folks who are providing services in that moment, the nurses, the doctors, the the aides, the watchers, who are concerned with what someone who is potentially coming to their bhcu, or how that person who will disrupt their familiar or how that person will disrupt their system. And so the folks who are high acuity, the folks who are really struggling, and really the most vulnerable are those who end up spending the most time in the least therapeutic of spaces. Because we often have such a hard time finding them, or finding a program was like, Yeah, absolutely. We are well equipped to deal with that. And we can absolutely provide them with services. I mean, I don't get that response. When I'm when I'm letting folks know that person is really struggling. They, they've been sober from methamphetamine after a year on and they're struggling hallucinations and paranoia and school aggression. Like I know immediately, that I'm more than likely going to have a very difficult time finding that person services and meanwhile, they're languishing in the ER in a in a box room. And so that's really the tension. That's where the hot potato for me lies in the ER of who is willing to accept this person and serve this person and give them the help they need.   Curt Widhalm  20:00 So when you're talking about this cross training between emergency staff and psych staff, and part of this even gets into the training of the people who are bringing people in, like law enforcement or ambulance, paramedic type services, what kinds of training inadequacies from the sake perspective? Are you hoping that some of these other services would be able to have or what do you see as deficits that they have when they are working with patients who are coming in under these kinds of circumstances?   Kesy Yoon  20:31 I saw that quite a lot. Unfortunately. You know, I think it's one of those things where again, it's it's very much about how do we not take responsibility for this person, this human being that we're bringing into the emergency room for law enforcement, if they're not criminal enough, or if it's not just if it doesn't fit into the standard or protocol for them to take them into their custody, they got to bring them into the ER. And then for fire, I mean, fire is even more broad. Right. So the Natalie's I saw a lot. We're just a very loose interpretation of LPs, and that's the lanterman Petris short, I always forget the what it stands for, but just very loose interpretation of what it means to be danger to yourself or danger, others gravely disabled, that's a, I mean, you can take all kinds of license with that, right. And I think with fire, it was also difficult, because I think oftentimes, the intention is good, like, if we give them to an ER, then they're going to get set up, they'll at least have a bed, they'll have some meals, and then the ER will take care of it. But, you know, there were so many times, even with fire, where even just bringing someone's wheelchair, that will be forgotten. I don't know if that's necessarily a deficiency in training, but the ER doesn't have an abundance of wheelchairs at them they could give to this patient once they're discharged. Right? So I think, even things like that, how do we see a patient as a whole person who has a life outside of the ER? And yes, who may need help. But that doesn't necessarily mean the right should be taken away? And then they're just left on the street, essentially, afterwards?   Katie Vernoy  22:09 How does the lack of substantial Mental Health Training by law enforcement, fire etc. So the the lack of knowledge and training for the folks that typically work with you, how does that affect clients?   James McMahill  22:24 I alluded to that image of impatience. And I think that that is what occurs the most when I'm dealing with law enforcement or emergency responders who are untrained in issues of mental health, because part of what law enforcement goes through on a daily basis is to address a criminal genic narrative, right. And it's really easy to get lost in the the who, what, where when of that narrative. And so I often see on train law enforcement trying to apply that same structure to a mental health emergency. And that doesn't mix well with someone who's having an incongruent, internalized process to what it is that they're also trying to communicate their words or with their actions. And so when that messaging is mixed, or is affected or impacted by what experiences someone's going through, there's that impatience and there's that tension. And there's a dismissal that says, Well, what you're talking about is not a big deal, right? Or there's that immediate kind of sense of, we've got bigger fish to fry. And so Meanwhile, I am seeing someone who is potentially responding to stimuli, who is exhibiting severe negative symptoms who might be having a dissociative event because of the trauma history. And it's so it's difficult to have to have a conversation with someone who hasn't had training in that regard. Like, hey, there's more going on here, than what's on the surface. And I think we need to kind of slow the pace down and really explore what it is that's going on. And so it's that time and impatience thing that really, I think creates a rift between the practitioners who are out there as first responders and law enforcement or fire who are out there trying to do the same thing.   Curt Widhalm  24:11 So not only is there needs differences, but to this bottleneck that you're talking about. It's there's policy implications into creating this bottleneck and California where Katie and I are a lot more familiar with things. You bring up George Floyd, you're talking about this much more intertwined relationship between law enforcement and mental health where you're practicing now, with the current environment, the current changes, the defunding the police sort of discussions, how do you see that being implemented with the kinds of systems that you're interacting with now and is there really as much of a push for that where you're working compared to some of the experiences that we're seeing here? California.   James McMahill  25:01 I was stunned at the difference in working with law enforcement in the suburbs of Minnesota. As I was working in East County, San Diego, my outpatient clinic was in El Cajon, California. And to be frank, that police department was fairly well known for a quick temper and quick decisions and a lot of impatience. You know, even when they were coming into the clinic on those rare occasions that we did need to call law enforcement and perked was not available. I had some really poor experiences with law enforcement. And so I don't know what the current climate is back in Southern California. But you know, when I came here, and I don't know whether or not this has been a change due to what happened in Minneapolis, but I started a couple of months before the George florid murder. And since then there has been kind of a combination of things is one, law enforcement. And again, depending on what officer you're dealing with, depending on what deputy you're dealing with, or Sheriff you're dealing with Sergeant you're dealing with, and, and depending on what their mood or what their experiences it has been on that day. But overall, the amount of collaboration and the amount of requests for me to come out and participate in a law enforcement event with someone that's struggling with mental health is way above what I experienced in Southern California, we're getting calls quite often to come out. And you know, all arrive on scene and and the the officers deputies will kind of tell me what the situation is. And they're always kind of waiting to see whether or not this is something that I can take care of on my own and give them the clear or whether or not I will stick around because there's concerns about violence. But there is a surprising level of patience that I'm seeing in dealing with law enforcement in Minnesota. And for me that patience has always been the most crucial element in those those crisis bubbles, right? Because if you have an increased amount of tension with law enforcement, and you can feel the resentment about having to be there in that moment, it makes for a really difficult situation. And it's very rarely results in a positive outcome for the client or positive outcome for the therapist, or for law enforcement. But there have been a couple of episodes here where where law enforcement was willing to work for hours with a client's trying to figure out levels of safety trying to figure out levels of cooperation. And I've yet to have a situation devolve into something worse than it was when I had arrived. You know, I've I've had positive outcomes with law enforcement in in Minnesota. Now. There's a lot of problems here. That is not to say that that's not the case. Obviously, that's the case. I mean, so far in my personal experience, of working with law enforcement, as it pertains to them wanting us to join and potentially give them space to remove themselves from a mental health situation. I've had pretty positive experiences. Now whether or not that's driven by altruism or driven by their desire to depart.   Katie Vernoy  28:13 There's a number of times, especially if there's mass shootings or other things, whether it's this public outcry for more funding for mental health programs. Sure. And it's usually during some sort of a tragedy. What are your thoughts on those, those outcries?   James McMahill  28:30 You know, usually, the expectations for me in those times is to fully understand that in that, in that month in that bubble, whatever that is, is that there's going to be the least amount of potential progress on actual mental health change than any other time, because it is used as such a such a red herring argument by folks who are looking for a distraction away from something but they don't want to talk about someone, you know, if someone wants to make sure that they don't have to talk about gun control, they'll say this isn't a gun issue. This is a mental health issue, and yet have very little desire to actually change anything within the mental health world. And then on the flip side of that, you have folks who may actually care about there being fundamental changes in mental health. But there needs to be this prioritization to having a conversation about gun control. And so they're kind of stuck in this space of saying, Well, yes, I mean, we should talk about mental health. But let's not get away from the issue that that dude in 30 seconds just mowed down 20 people with an assault rifle. And so I always cringe in that moment, because I know that there's going to be the least amount of productive conversation about mental health, as of any time outside of that window of a tragedy like that.   Curt Widhalm  29:50 Part of the administration process is around this LPs designation of hospitals and you've had an experience For a hospital kind of walk this line that contributes to some of this placement process, especially for longer term treatment, from your perspective of working in these kinds of departments, there's some of these admin kind of decisions that then end up affecting even some of these clients ability to reliably even have the emergency room be part of their safety plan. Give us a little peek behind the scenes, as far as what you've seen is some of these kinds of policy level decisions that affects even just the accessibility of care for people going through situations where they need to end up in the emergency room for psychiatric reasons.   Kesy Yoon  30:44 I wish I could be a fly on the wall and those meetings. In my experience, the first three years I worked in the ER, we worked with an inpatient unit that was opiates as needed, so it was locked. So if a patient did come in on a hold, there was almost an immediate transfer, or at least pending bed placement upstairs. So they had somewhere where they could really be stabilized and treated by psychiatric staff. Somewhere in between that time, I'm not quite sure all i knows there were very many audits, because when your LPs, Department of Mental Health, obviously there, they want to make sure things are running, they want to keep people accountable. But it would be it seemed like a very big burden of responsibility on the psychiatric staff. I felt like it was every quarter there the audited because we were designated. There was that reason, there was also a higher number of patients with admin days when we were locked, because we're waiting for higher levels of placement. And afterwards, we decided to forego the placement, the LPS designation, and we became a strictly volunteer voluntary psychiatric hospital, we still had beds, but we could no longer take patients that were on 5150 holds unless psychiatrists came to the ER, discharged the hole and then had the patient sign voluntary. And I think that made it it's hard to say because then at that point that the 5050 patients were either wait, they waited the 72 hours, er, and then they just got discharged with some paperwork, or we transfer them to a locked unit, where I don't know how long they would stay there. But it did become difficult because it's almost, it almost feels as though there's very little you can do at that point. If someone comes in, you either transfer them or you wait, and then you discharge them or they go upstairs, you almost want them to sign voluntarily. But sometimes if they don't have the cognitive abilities to understand what's going on, or they're in such a state where they can't sign voluntarily, then you're just either again, waiting it out or waiting to transfer them, which can be difficult.   Katie Vernoy  32:48 So due to the bureaucratic, not, you know, nightmare, as well as it sounds like some of the really hard requirements, this smoother system, have they come into the ER we have a place for them became this weird convoluted, maybe we can take them but right somehow they have to not be eligible for 5150. Right?   Kesy Yoon  33:20 Yes, they can't be too acute. They have to be acute enough where there's criteria. So you know, they're suicidal enough or homicidal enough or psychotic enough, but not so much worse than their video on picking material because then we have to call a pet team from a different hospital,   Katie Vernoy  33:37 or then that's when they end up like 40 miles away   Kesy Yoon  33:40 not knowing anyone. Yes, yes, exactly. And the hospital pays for those contracts as well. with certain lock it once you're an unlocked hospital, you can pay for contracts with locked hospitals, so that they will then take your patients, especially the ones that are uninsured, you know, with County Medical.   Katie Vernoy  34:01 Yeah, it just seems like it becomes these silos again, when it was integrated in the hospital when you first started, right?   Curt Widhalm  34:11 This whole reimbursement aspects, like you're talking about medical or uninsured people, but even for some of the insured people, what are some of the difficulties as far as a program of getting reimbursed, that essentially even contributes to this whole fiasco?   Kesy Yoon  34:30 I think one of the difficulties I experienced in emergency room was the emergency room is technically outpatient. So then to have a psychiatrists, let's say from the inpatient unit, come in and do a consultation every 24 hours for a 72 hour hold, you know, depending on the psychiatry so it was difficult to get them to come down there because it's an outpatient service. And I want to say it gets a little confusing with billing and then how do they get reimbursed as an inpatient provider for an hour patient's service, which is also some of the barriers I experienced when we were in meetings about creating a psychiatric emergency room, because our hospital was in talks about that for a while. But I think again, there was just too much red tape, bureaucracy stuff. And a psychiatric emergency room is the fine line between outpatient and inpatient. Right, because they're not they're not they're getting treated, but they're not inpatient, or the waiting for a bed. And I think eventually administration didn't really want to go through with the idea.   Katie Vernoy  35:31 It's so interesting that er is are considered outpatient when right, especially recently, I'm assuming a lot of people were staying in beds for days. Absolutely, absolutely.   Curt Widhalm  35:43 It's almost like psychiatric illness shouldn't be treated entirely like a medical problem. Yeah, I want to go back to this question. You know, since we're talking about, you know, some of us idealize care, and we asked at the beginning, but even when it comes to the way that administration and reimbursement happens, or is there more that you think needs to go into this idealized care sort of answer?   Kesy Yoon  36:12 I think so. I mean, I don't, I don't even know what that would look like, sometimes I have these, you said, these daydreams, or maybe are, what it would look like if we just had psychiatric staff and there wasn't this revolving door. But it's such a, it's a part of a system that needs help, you know, the actual episode with the senator, and then the medical director of gmh was, I was so enlightened. And I was also given so much hope by that episode, because I was thinking, yes, this is like, it needs to be a system thing, the ers part of that system. I don't know, obviously, it could start with policy, but it's sometimes I feel like it's just a smaller part of a much larger problem.   Curt Widhalm  36:50 And so part of the system being that places like the ER, places like the prison, the jails that end up serving as de facto parts of the community care that has lost its funding over the last several decades that proper reimbursement, as I'm hearing, you say it is actually funding some of these community places to take care of people before and after some of these crisis. So that way, they're not sitting around waiting three days for a placement when there's no placements that can be found.   Kesy Yoon  37:25 Exactly. I think that's very true. You know, I don't have that much experience with either, but even a psychiatric urgent care, there's not that many. I think the main one I know about is the line of Exodus, or who cares for mental health. And then there's a new one that was recently built Long Beach, but even having that and they also have their time constraints. Suppose the patients can only stay for 23 hours, I don't know who came up with that number. And then they get Yeah, or they get transferred. And long before I started in the ER, they told me stories of there was an exodus connected to our emergency room. So they would discharge a patient from the Exodus, urgent care, transfer them on a gurney, basically down the street to our er, and they will kind of just ping pong them around, because they didn't know what to do with these patients. And so yes, I think proactive care before and then actually having sustainable and viable trend plans after would be immensely helpful.   Katie Vernoy  38:25 Well, I'm also hearing having some way to be comprehensive and how people can do services where the billing isn't, by the minute, yeah, based on type of service, and I even think the whole issue of inpatient versus outpatient. And can you bill for both services on the same day? Right. Seems like there's also insurance bureaucracy that needs to be addressed, because people are not doing the best care they can, because they won't get reimbursed for it. And they're being incentivized to treat and St. Hmm.   Kesy Yoon  39:03 I agree with that. And I was actually talking to a psychiatrist the other day, what did I ask? I was thinking was asking about, you know, what was his experience like working in the emergency room? And it's difficult, because I think a lot of them are inpatient. psychiatrists are usually, I don't know, one group that's seeing inpatient psych and a detox unit, if they have that, which was the case of my hospital. And so getting someone to come down, just to see a patient out of 50 or 50. It was never fast enough for the ER doctors First of all, and it was difficult for them because, you know, they're, they're either going to discharge a patient or they're going to treat are they going to come every day, the patient's there, and I think that was difficult, as well.   Katie Vernoy  39:48 It is very patchwork.   Kesy Yoon  39:50 That's a great way to put it very patchwork. I felt like I was always scrambling to put pieces together and it within a very finite amount of time and everyone was always asking administration was always asking why? Why is the station here for so long? And what are you not doing to either get them upstairs? And it's, you know, it can be very frustrating.   Katie Vernoy  40:10 I guess the question ties to the reverse, which is, how hopeful did you feel when someone came in with a mental health crisis that they would stabilize, get back to their life? And things would be good going forward? Like how Sure, were you that they were going to get the care that they needed? Honestly,   Kesy Yoon  40:30 I think it would depend on some factors. I think if they came in with a family member, or a friend or roommate who was concerned, and I could tell that they could get connected after I would have, my hope would increase, if they came alone, there are no resources, no family, no social support, then I would almost think, well, there's a good chance they're going to be bad. But there's, there's some hope in that too, right. Like, I think when I first started working in the emergency room, I was so shocked by how much the ER becomes a part of some patient's treatment plan. They just know where they know, I don't know, in the middle of the month, I'm probably gonna have some kind of psychotic breakdown, and I'm going to come to the ER, I think that would affect how much   Katie Vernoy  41:16 What do you see as an ideal for how er services would be working with in relationships, how they fit in the larger mental health system, because it sounds like as a, as a catch all, or sometimes even the first first door, it may be really the wrong match. So how do you think it should fit in to the mental health system?   Kesy Yoon  41:36 You know, ideally, I would, I think the ER should operate, similar to how it should operate for just medical patients, which is for mental health crises and emergencies. Ideally, there would also be things like more psychiatric urgent care centers, where there's kind of this other level before they get triage as an emergency or a crises. And I think to be great in the ER staff, maybe nurses or whatnot, were cross trained on how to deal with mental health crises and mental health patients, every single er is dealing with mental health, right. And so I understand you don't need an extensive amount of training, but it's always divided between the ER staff, and then the site staff that comes in to help and support. So it's almost like this, oh, the psych nurse will take care of it. And so the ER staff, whatever training, they got nursing school, let's say, that's kind of it. So that would be another ideal if there was just more cross training involved, to deal with mental health crises, if that's what the ER was, in, of course, in my ideal if that's what was being used for.   James McMahill  42:42 I think, in an in an ideal space, and I always dream about this, whenever I'm at the ER, and I'm really struggling with that tension of freeing up the ER bed, is that I would love to see a mirrored space, a space that is identical in, in every way to the ER, but is staffed with nurses who are trained specifically in mental health that is staffed with psychiatrists, as much as it is PhDs, or medical Doc's and a place that's really conducive to that moment of stabilization until you can get someone to a program that will better serve their needs than the ER, because, you know, the ER, fundamentally is about stabilization and about creation of, of safety. And so in particular, when you're dealing with a psychiatric crisis, a lot of times the moments of sad occurs, the environment in which we're going and seeing that the rooms for clients that we're going and doing Christ assessment, it's a, it is a safe room, you know, quote, unquote, and so it's a, it's a bed, and it is four walls, and it's a locked door. And so, there's so many incongruencies, to what it is that I'm trying to offer in that moment, which is real human connection, which is true visibility, which is, you know, making sure that that moment, or that person in that moment knows that they're being heard, and they're being seen, they're being treated by someone who has their best interests at heart. And meanwhile, I'm doing it in this hermetically sealed cube. And so, I'd like to see a psychiatric er, that's where that's where I would like to be treating the clients when I'm doing the assessment, but   Katie Vernoy  44:22 How would the job for a clinician change in the ER, if this system were, quote unquote, fixed? If people actually were able to that it really was crisis or first door? Not rotten, not revolving door? Not, you know, casual? How would that change? how it feels to be a clinician in the ER?   Kesy Yoon  44:49 That's I really liked that question. I always have never thought about that. I mean, I in moments, because you're just there's so everything is timed. And so you're just like, Oh my I just have to go out and assess this patient and get them out of here. or have a plan for the doctor because he doesn't want to deal with it? How would it change? I think there would be more care. I mean, I'll speak from my own experience. I think when I saw patients who were truly in a mental health crisis, maybe even some of those are revolving door when they would come in, and they were really having a hard time. I think it would just allow for more care, even in that kind of chaotic setting. If we're the first door, the first, the first learning for these kinds of patients, maybe wouldn't have to be so chaotic and so hurried, maybe they could feel like this was the right decision they made and it's safe. For me, that would be one way you could change. But I had to think about that a little bit more in terms of, I guess, I've just never thought about what it would be like if we weren't responsible for just getting them out as soon as possible.   Katie Vernoy  45:55 So now it's our turn to reflect a little bit on what we heard, close it out. But I was very struck by how similar the perspective was, even though we've got folks that are working in two different areas in the country. I think that the desire for a psychiatric emergency room with the training the resources, that person to person connection, that could be possible. I really liked that vision. But I think as as you and I've talked about a number of times, it's huge systemic changes that are going to need to happen for that to really be the case.   Curt Widhalm  46:31 And it's often with a part of society that gets overlooked as far as being a worthwhile investment. And that's part of why Katie and I are putting this whole series together is it's something where looking at one particular space in the system, as it's being isolated away from everything else doesn't do it justice, as far as how we look at fitting everything together. In our interviews and some of the stuff that got left on the cutting room floor, especially James was talking about some of the stark differences that he had seen between his work in Southern California and his work in Minnesota. But despite all that, there just seem to be more similarities than not, especially when it comes to where the shortcomings of the system is. And through the remainder of this series and our continued advocacy work of improving mental health in America. I'm hoping that by putting all of this in the context, we've got a really good opportunity for some calls to action for some good systemic change.   Katie Vernoy  47:42 So keep listening. We've got more episodes that'll be coming out soon. And by soon it could be in a month or it could be in three months. We're trying our best to put together really solid interviews so that we're putting together a nice hole. But if you have ideas to share for our fixing mental health care in the United States series, please let us know.   Curt Widhalm  48:02 Check out our show notes at mcsg podcast calm and for could links to the previous episodes as well as some information on James and Casey and also a welcome to our growing team of Alyssa Davis who helps make some editorial contributions on this episode as well. Till next time, I'm Kurt Woodham Katie Vernoy   Katie Vernoy  48:27 Thanks again to our sponsor, the Healthcasters   Curt Widhalm  48:30 wanted to tell you guys a little bit of what's included in the health casters podcasting course it includes simple step by step videos to take your podcast from idea to one that generates income when it launches also includes cheat sheets and templates Dr. Melvin Varghese uses for the selling the couch podcast, whether it's scripts to reach out to guests templates to let guests know that a podcast is live. The recently released the podcast episode tracker the simple sheet helps keep your podcast episodes organized, whether you want to reference them later or repurpose them for content in the future. You can also choose to upgrade the purchase of course the community of over 250 other therapists podcasts. This includes monthly group one on one coaching calls with Melvin and you can learn more about health casters, it's sellingthecouch.com/jointhe healthcasters   Katie Vernoy  49:20 into the promo code therapy reimagined at checkout for $100 off the listed price. And just a reminder that sellingthecouch.com/jointhehealthcasters.   Announcer  49:30 Thank you for listening to the modern therapist Survival Guide. Learn more about who we are and what we do at mtsgpodcast.com. You can also join us on Facebook and Twitter. And please don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any of our episodes.

Why YOU Shouldn't Sell Out to BetterHelp An interview with Jeff Guenther, LPC from TherapyDen about the ins and outs of affiliate partnerships. Curt and Katie talk with Jeff about the offer he received from BetterHelp and why he turned it down – taking some time to discuss the therapist businesses and influencers who have chosen this partnership and the subsequent backlash from the online therapist communities. We look at how these types of partnerships can be formed, what you should consider when you are approached to collaborate with another company, and how much money it would take for us to sell out. It's time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age. Interview with Jeff Guenther, LPC, TherapyDen Jeff Guenther, LPC, is a therapist in Portland, OR. He has been in private practice since 2005 and currently leads workshops on how health and wellness practitioners can build their digital brand and attract more clients online. Jeff is the creator and owner of two highly ranked healthcare directory sites, Portland Therapy Center and TherapyDen.   In this episode we talk about: Jeff's TherapyDen story – why/how he started it and the different types of partnerships and other business arrangements that he's been approached with How to sift out what is being offered and whether a partnership is beneficial or harmful The salesy approaches that Jeff just does not respond to The common origin stories and connections made with tech startups Why Brighter Vision and others have gotten so much backlash when they partnered with BetterHelp The movement from the online therapists' groups to respond to Brighter Vision and the resulting discontinuation of the partnership with BetterHelp The importance of taking care of the individuals in the profession The corporate focus on commoditization of therapy The different ways that companies like BetterHelp may be making money off of therapy clients and therapists (e.g., data mining) BetterHelp's plan to take over therapist directories and all of the entry points for therapy The consequences of BetterHelp's success and how they are changing the expectations Ideas about larger provider networks that can be done well to support therapists and clients The specifics of Jeff's offer from BetterHelp and why he turned it down The morals and values questions that come up when facing one of these offers The practical reasons not to take these kinds of deals, no matter the money involved The importance of being able to stand behind your partners Our Generous Sponsor: The Healthcasters The Healthcasters is a podcasting course and community designed for therapists in private practice and therapists turned coaches + consultants that's supported the successful launch of over 270 podcasts. Wanted to tell you guys a little bit what's included in the Healthcasters podcasting course. It includes simple step by step videos to take your podcast from idea to one that generates income when it launches. Also includes cheatsheets and templates Melvin uses for the Selling The Couch podcast whether its scripts to reach out to guests or templates to let guests know a podcast is live.  We recently released the Podcast Episode Tracker.  This simple sheet helps you keep your podcast episodes organized whether you want to reference them later or re-purpose the content in the future.  You can also choose to upgrade after purchasing the course to a community of over 250 other therapist podcasts.  This also includes monthly group and 1 on 1 coaching calls with Melvin.  You can learn more about Healthcasters at sellingthecouch.com/jointhehealthcasters (enter the promo code "therapyreimagined" at checkout for $100 off the listed price).   Resources mentioned: We've pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance! TherapyDen Create a Free Therapist Profile on TherapyDen Contact Jeff: hello@therapyden.com Swoon Podcast and Jeff's TherapyDen Blog   Relevant Episodes: Jeff Guenther's first interview on the podcast: Privileged and Biased Online Therapy Apps The Burnout System   Connect with us! Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined Conferences   Our consultation services: The Fifty-Minute Hour Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We're working on it. Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren't trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don't want to, but hey.   Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com www.therapyreimagined.com Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist's Group https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/ https://twitter.com/therapymovement https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/   Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/   Transcript (Autogenerated)   Curt Widhalm  00:00 This episode of the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide is brought to you by Healthcasters. Katie Vernoy  00:04 The HealthCasters is a podcasting course and community designed for therapists in private practice and therapists turn coaches and consultants that supported the successful launch of over 270 podcasts. Learn more about the health casters at sellingthecouch.com/jointhehealthcasters and enter the promo code therapy reimagined at checkout for $100 off the listed price.   Curt Widhalm  00:26 Listen at the end of the episode for more information about health casters,   Announcer  00:29 You're listening to the modern therapist Survival Guide where therapists live, breathe and practice as human beings to support you as a whole person and a therapist. Here are your hosts, Kurt Wilhelm and Katie Vernoy.   Curt Widhalm  00:45 Welcome back modern therapists. This is the modern therapist Survival Guide. I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy. And this is the podcast that is for therapists about therapists the things that we do the values that we hold. And one of the things that's happened here in the therapy world in the last few weeks is there's a lot of online backlash against the company brighter vision brighter vision is somebody who we formerly had a partnership sponsorship with in the past. But there is a backlash that was happening around brighter visions partnership with a company called better help. And you can check out our previous episode about some of these therapy apps. And we'll link to that in our show notes over at mtsgpodcast.com over the course of a week, and what we saw was brighter vision announced this partnership, a tremendous pressure put in to brighter vision by the online therapists communities. And just a few days later, Brighter Vision announced that they were no longer going to be partnered with BetterHelp. Through all of this, one of our friends and previous guests, Jeff Guenther, he's a LPC in the Portland area, as you might know him from TherapyDen, and a lot of the other cool stuff that he does reached out to me and said, Hey, I have a story about some of these partnerships. And we were like, please come back to the podcast as soon as possible. And welcome back, Jeff, and thank you for spending some time with us.   Jeff Guenther  02:23 Haha, yeah, I'm happy to be here. And I can't wait to talk to you guys about this.   Katie Vernoy  02:27 So we've asked you this question before. And people can go back and listen to a previous episode. But I'd love for you to tell people who are you and what are you putting out to the world now because I know there's some updates and some some good stuff and then intros for our new listeners.   Jeff Guenther  02:41 Sure. I am Jeff Guenther, one of my big projects that I'm working on that I've been working on since 2017 is a national therapist directory called TherapyDen, go to therapyden.com visit it. A progressive and all inclusive therapists directory, it was mainly it came from like my hatred for psychology today. And especially back in 2017. And before Psychology Today felt like very behind in the times. So I was like, You know what, there should be a better option for this. And there are some other therapists directories and I want to jump into the therapist directory game, I have made like a pretty successful therapists directory locally for Portland. So I was taking all my skills and applying it to the national therapists directory. So it can make it progressive and it can be anti racist and social justice II and make it so that like therapist asked therapists to be a little bit more authentic in their profile. So you can like really get to understand to know who the therapist is, and what they're all about. Trying to get the therapist to share their values and beliefs and all that good stuff. started working on that in 2017. It launched in 2018. And it's been growing ever since then. And it's been a really fun ride. And also a roller coaster. One of my more interesting experiences was better help coming to me and looking for a partnership. But there's been many organizations out there looking for partnerships, and I kind of use them air quotes, because some of them are really looking to partner with you to like, enhance their brand and like Yahoo came to therapy den not too long ago being like, Hey, we want to feature you on our like mental health page. And it was all on the app, an app and it's great. Unfortunately, as we know, not a lot of people use Yahoo. But still very excited to partner with Yahoo like a very recognized brand. I wish them the best. Then there's other companies that are like wanting to partner that really just want to buy out TherapyDen or really want to sell marketing services to therapy done or want to make money off of us. So yeah, so there's been like a lot of really interesting conversations that I've had.   Curt Widhalm  04:49 I don't know whether to just kind of choose this better help story to get people to listen to the entire episode or to follow our normal pattern of asking, you know, for those people who are looking to partner with some of these companies? How do you sift out some of the, you know, these are the ones that are good versus these are the ones that maybe don't have the best interests of what I've got going on in mind. You know Katie, and I get approached very much in the same way, by a number of different companies. What are some of the experiences that you've had that have led you to better understanding where some of these intentions are because some of these people have great marketing teams that know how to talk around some of the more inexperienced people? So how can we help people maybe not make some of the same mistakes?   Jeff Guenther  05:44 I don't know... I'm still trying, I still try to figure that out. And I still struggle with it. Sometimes there's like a group of people, sort of like techie investors, Silicon Valley, sorts of bros that like reach out to me every now and then to want to learn and they want to learn more about therapy, diagnose therapy directory, like how to match therapists with clients, because they are creating a very similar product. Yeah, we're, they're creating a matching service. And they have some new innovative way that they think is going to, like blow the pants off of the industry, that I and many other people have thought about and tried to implement and failed or didn't fail, but they have the secret sauce. But really, like, they want to get like all of all the information all the data from me, either to like kind of steal my ideas or improve on their own ideas, or to possibly buy me out. And so whenever there's like tech companies that are coming to like, ask me about therapyden, then I'm always very guarded. And I hold everything close to my chest. So if somebody like finds me reaches out to me through LinkedIn automatically, I don't want to respond to them. I hate linkedin. I don't know how you feel about LinkedIn. But that already feels very shady to me. Yeah. And then there's,I usually respond like, just yesterday morning, somebody was reaching out to me through LinkedIn saying, like, hey, I'd love to partner with you. And I said, if you're selling the marketing services, I don't want to talk to you. That's usually like my first response. And then if they continue to kind of try to get to me, and I might have a phone call with them, but you can tell if somebody is being salesy with you, or like offering you the world, or, I mean, it just doesn't, it just doesn't feel right. It's probably not right. There was an another company, they were thinking about buying out therapyden. And that was like, I was like, I don't know. And so I had to do like a lot of research to figure out like, Who are they? Are they good? Are they bad? I don't know. It never obviously never actually went through. And we just sort of like couldn't align, I guess. But I guess the answer, the question is like, How does it feel? How does it feel when somebody is reaching out to you? And really, I got a really good feeling from like, all the folks at Yahoo, who are just like, really clearly into like mental health, and wanting to put together resources that was like really good for the community? What do you both think?   Katie Vernoy  10:43 I do most of these conversations. And so I think for me, I think there are times probably when I'm swayed by the relationship, you know, I started to get to know somebody, we have more conversations, I think that independent research is important. Because when you're getting on a call with somebody, they are going to have the story like this is the reason and and i think about I've talked to a lot of tech startups, I don't have the same conflict, because it's not a competing business. In fact, you know, we we want therapists to find the right directories, we want therapists to find the right resources and said, that's why we want a feature therapy den on our site. You know, like, there's those kinds of things. But I think when I start feeling like there's two different types, I think of these tech companies, some of them are, let's commoditize this, let's How can we get the most profit, and there's a lot of folks and most of these are the ones that I think are not as successful. And so they're wanting advice, and they're probably wondering, you know, free free research from you and stuff like that, where they've, they've started their hearts in the right place. They're getting out of the, the big tech world and one of their family members has had a mental health issue. And they they couldn't find the resources they needed, they found this gap and they want it. So I mean, it's like, I've heard this story a number of times so many times. And they're somewhere I get to know them better. I'm like, these are really cool people and they're they've got the right people on their team. I like their team members. I'm seeing how they're supporting good mental health. I'm seeing how they're supporting clinicians. And then there's others where I'm like, What are you doing? And some of it's the instinct, but some of it is just kind of going through and doing the research and then trying to see if you can find people who are in these systems to see is it actually does it actually feel good? Does it actually is it actually working? You know, are they having any moral qualms about the the therapy that they're able to provide or you know, or The money that they're getting for the work that they're doing. But it's so hard because the exceptionally good marketing teams are going to come with these amazing heart wrenching stories, they're going to be super friendly. And I think it's just, you just got to do the background legwork and try to be objective, which is hard. We are saying that we're grappling with these decisions, you know, and potentially there are times when really, really nice arrangements or sizable money or sizable visibility can happen from these partnerships. And we can make wrong decisions, we can always walk them back and do different things, but it seems like brighter vision, and other therapists, b2b companies or therapist influencers, people are getting a big backlash for partnering with betterhelp. I have my own opinion, but you've you've actually interacted with betterhelp, they reached out to us and we're like, we'd like to talk about your employment practices. I didn't hear anything else after that. Um, and so why do you think there's such a big backlash against brighter vision and these other folks who've decided to partner with better help?   Jeff Guenther  11:07 Yeah, I think there's a lot of reasons for that. And we all have maybe our own personal reasons, the serve brighter vision, like my sort of experience of who they are in their company, it seemed like oh, is Perry, you know, the owner and starter, but now not the owner, President, I think they just sold they sold. Yeah, it seemed like Perry was like, hey, I want to like start the service, I want to make websites for therapists and, and there isn't like a lot of good options out there, like, great. And then he did it. And then he became successful. And he hired he like, created this little team. And it seemed like they were very personable, like we knew who Perry was, and what brighter visions was all about. And they are in all the little therapists, private practice groups on Facebook, and yada, yada. And we knew them, it felt like they were on our team, they're on our side. And that felt nice. And so then all of a sudden, they announced this partnership with better help, who I think most of us a lot of us think is like the bad guy. And it was very much what I thought maybe you know more about Perry and brighter visions, but it seemed like it was out of line with who they are and what their values are. And their support that they had for like therapists. And the deal didn't seem to make sense. I don't know the details. I'm sure it made sense on their end. But it was it was kind of bizarre that they were trying to like, help betterhelp get more therapists to subscribe to their services that I'm not sure how it connects with like therapists creating websites through them. So that was funky. And I was super impressed. Maybe this has happened before. And I hadn't seen it before. But I was super impressed with the community, the mental health community and all the therapists that were just like, no, this is not okay. And they flooded, brighter visions, and they flooded all the therapists groups and created this like organic campaign to like contact Perry and not allow this to happen. So that was super impressive, and like, very exciting, and made me think that like, Oh, we do have a lot of power. If we can all come together and do something. It didn't feel right, it felt really gross it partnership didn't make sense. I think a lot of people have like a really good fuzzy, nice feeling about brighter visions. So partnering with better help, didn't, didn't, I didn't understand that.   Katie Vernoy  13:30 I think the thing that felt I don't know about icky, but I think the thing that felt weird to me is that the idea around brighter vision is that they are creating webs, they're helping therapists create websites for their own practices, and brighter and better help is actually actively in competition. And so it's like you're funneling the competition. And you're also helping your therapists who are your customers or potential customers, to basically get bogged down in the betterhelp world where you're not gonna make any money and you're too busy and blah, blah, blah, I think the they came back with a, hey, you know, people who are just starting out, sometimes better help is a good way for them to make some money while they're growing their own practice. And so it was like, that's what we were thinking about. But I don't know...   Curt Widhalm  14:17 I think we have to also put this into the context of what impact these tech companies are having on our industry, because as you're both speaking, that there seems to be this push away from you as the individual therapists and more into kind of, you know, helping somebody get better stock returns, you know, on the New York Stock Exchange here at some points that and that really goes against what I think all of our values are here, which is really taking care of the individuals having used the individuals be seen. And I think that a lot of the people that we share in our audience in these Facebook groups, as you know, listeners of our podcast here, attendees of our conference, people who use therapyden, that we come in as caring individuals and are tired of being cogs in a machine. And so this really inconsistent message seems to be something where it's very easy to feared, like, Hey, this is just shoving a, you know, burnout machine away from community mental health, and now into kind of just a more corporate sort of therapy delivery service.   Jeff Guenther  15:32 Yeah, for sure. Like you said, like better help, doesn't care about helping people. I mean, I don't think I think they think that they care about helping, you know, padding their bottom line and giving money back to their investors and making a ton of money. Like they like you. I think you mentioned maybe earlier before we started recording, like, they're also into data mining, they take your data, and they sell it to Facebook, and Google and Pinterest. So even if somebody like goes on to better help a client, a person goes on to better help, like find a therapist, and fills out an intake form that intake form, even before they start like a subscription, that that info on that intake form is sent to advertisers that are looking for that it like want to know more about you. So Facebook can know the last time you wanted to commit suicide. So Pinterest can know every time you open up that app and talk about how depressed you are. Better help isn't like looking at the exact language that a client or a therapist is like putting into the app, but they're collecting like the metadata around it. So it's just sort of they get this kind of like idea of who you are. And then they apply it to your sort of like online profile, so that Facebook can like sell you more products that depressed people buy, or anxious people buy or people will trauma by you know, they create. And so, as a therapist in private practice, like all of us that are probably listening, we would never sell our clients data to other people. But like, that's a big part of better helps money making scheme. Because they need to make that money. And they make a ton of money off of that. And it reminds me so I worked for this really weird funny, not very funny, but just slightly weird company in Portland when I first got my master's degree. And they're, they're hiring people with master's degree in counseling that also had a voice. So they could like pick up a phone and be on this crisis line. But it was a for profit crisis line, which is weird. Uh huh. And every time us therapists would pick up the phone, that business would make 15 bucks. And so they kept on together. Like, it's you're not allowed to talk for over 12 minutes to somebody who's in a crisis. You like, you got to like, get them off the phone and get them off the phone. That's the more people that you answer, the more you'll they'll make money. And we're just sort of like became this like, weird little machine. We're just trying to answer as many phone calls as we possibly could. There's these little alarm bells going off. We're on the phone too long.   Katie Vernoy  18:06 Oh, no! That sounds like a horrible job.   Jeff Guenther  18:10  It was it was horrible. I in the middle of it applied to work at the Apple Store. Because I was like, I can't be a therapist anymore. This is what oh, anyways, it feels very similar to betterhelp, where they're just like they're there to like, make money and the more that they can get people to sign up, the more money they're going to make.   Katie Vernoy  18:27 Yeah, I think there's also and I don't know if this was involved in any of the folks who I've seen in partnership with betterhelp. But it seems like there's also large, you know, kind of investment cycles. And so if you can say I have this many therapists in my whatever, in my network, and then there's, then there's more likely that you'll get some angel investor money.   Jeff Guenther  18:52 Mm hmm. Yeah. And they're looking better help us like looking. They're trying to corner every single way a person is looking for, for therapy. We've seen all their ads on Facebook, and we've seen their ads on TV, and they're gobbling up therapists directories one by one trying to like so they have a bunch of therapists directories, what do they have? They have pride counseling.com the corner like the LGBTQ market, they have faithful counseling.com for the biblical perspective, they have teen counseling.com The list goes on where they just like make these make believe therapists directories or they find a therapist directory and buy them out you know clay cockerel from online counseling calm No, no I know you know i mean counseling calm Yeah, yeah. Better help presented him with like the same deal partnership that they presented to me and he decided to take it I like clay clay is a great guy. I'm like not trying to shit on clay is fantastic. And he made a good financial decision for himself. But if you go to like online counseling calm, which then forwards you to online therapy calm, which then forwards you to like better help therapists like they're just looking to like gobble up all the SEO, all the websites out there, you know, like they're very savvy and what they're doing.   Katie Vernoy  20:22 How does that impact our industry then if they're if the more they're successful with these partnerships, and gobbling up every entry point for therapy, and all of, you know, large groups of therapists?   Jeff Guenther  20:34 Yeah, I mean, I feel like they're just they're taking all of our clients and they're conditioning clients to, and they're not clients, they're subscribers, right? So they're conditioning clients to like, think that this is what therapy is for. And I don't think that it's good to have 24 hour access seven days a week to your therapist, that's doesn't feel healthy to me. But that's it's like, you know, it's the Uber of therapy. It's and therapists, better help get paid by the word, you know, like, and you're not allowed to like type two times the amount of words that your client is typing, or else you're not going to get paid for it. So there's like, you're not going to get paid in certain ways when you're a better help therapist, and you're just not going to like provide the counseling to that client, because you're not going to get paid for it anyways, you have to make this fucked up decision. So it's really creating these really weird expectations for clients. You know, the taxi business isn't really here anymore, because Uber and Lyft took it over. That can happen to us if better health and talkspace and other Silicon Valley companies keep taking it over. But Katie, you mentioned that there are some good guys. I know. But I'm hopefully I'm not being duped. But I think, yeah, I'm not super aware of like all the good guys, but I'm totally open to hearing about who they are. So I can look into that.   Katie Vernoy  21:55 I mean, I think Curt and I have talked about it. And I think they're the strongest ones are the ones that actually do an employment model. So that therapists who are working for them are able to unionize, they can they can do some of these things, they can have the benefits of being employees, I think there's arguments for extended provider networks being also helpful for folks who don't want to be employees and just want a couple of clients that are you know, through insurance or whatever. But I think there's there may be negative Kurt Kurt's informs me there could be very negative things on on that end, if we have too many kind of contractor models. And he and I will probably have a whole other conversation about this. So we can go in deeper but, but to me, there's some therapists who I think don't really want to be private practitioners, and they don't really fit into an agency or community mental health kind of model. And so being able to be employed by lire is one of the ones that we've talked to that seem really nice are some of these other employers like gigantic employers, it's like it's a dream, because you get to see ideal clients for a good salary in kind of a, you know, in kind of more similar to a private practice model. And you can, and you can be an employee and just do it. And so it's like, you just get to focus on therapy, you don't have to figure out how to market because I don't think all therapists should be private practitioners. So I think that there are some folks who are increasing access while still taking care of therapists and doing good clinical work. Now, they may take away our clients, and so there's the competition element, but I don't know that it's all bad. Yeah, no, it's probably not all bad.   Curt Widhalm  23:32 There's a tremendous amount of money that these companies are trying out for advertising for partnerships for any of these, you know, gobbling up companies, as you're describing here. And a lot of this money is coming from either, you know, conglomerate Corporation type things to, you know, kind of change the markets and have, you know, billionaires funding some of this stuff going on. I want to get a little bit to your story. And when you presented me with the number that you did, as far as the amount of money that they were approaching you, and I've been approached to sell out my practice by not this better help company, but I was like, Wow, that is a tremendous amount of money for myself. How's this money impacting us? You know, you and I have made decisions to stay with what we're doing at this point. But we see, you know, our friends, our other people in the community who are partnering up, we see these businesses partnering up. What are we seeing as far as companies like ours that are just kind of still you know, fighting the good fight here.   Jeff Guenther  24:49 It's, you know, you base your company or your service on like, what feels like the right values, and you have like a great mission and we stand behind it and it like it. It is who you are, that's like your identity. And you create this business and lots of other therapists or therapy users resonate with them. And then you have these big companies like betterhelp, who approached me in July 2019. So it was like, pretty soon after, like therapy, then the therapist directory launched. Also, I'm like the majority owner of therapy, then I also have a couple business partners who actually work on the site who like, you know, the developer of the site, and then the user experience person. So we're all just like working on the site and doing our day jobs. So I would have to, like get there, okay. to partner with better help for like the partner that for the deal that they're offering us. But I'm like the therapist and the face of the company. And I'll get into the details about what they offered therapy done. But when they offer you a ton of money, I felt like just throwing away all of my values, because there's a certain amount of money that I would sell myself for, I think,   Curt Widhalm  26:06 Oh, yeah, you can totally buy new new values with with the amount of money that they're offering.   Jeff Guenther  26:13 Aha, right. So they so the to get into the nitty gritty a little bit. They're like, VP of business development, shot me an email and was like, hey, love therapy, Dan, what you're doing your mission, your values, I stand behind it, this is fantastic, blah, blah, blah. And I can see that you don't offer a lot of options for online therapists. And we were just starting to like integrate that into therapy. And we're only like, providing therapist for in person therapy. And then we're like, adding online therapist. And so we've just launched that. And when you click like the online therapists in this state button, nothing was showing up because nobody was signing up yet. But we're building and yada, yada, and he was like, so if you want better help, if you want better help therapists to be integrated into your therapy directory, then those could be the search results that come on for that come up and are displayed for online therapists. So we'll like integrate all of our therapists, they'll have these sort of pretend listings on therapy den. And when somebody goes and hits like the contact button or wants to call them it goes right to like better help, and they sign up through better help. So these aren't therapy den. These aren't actual therapists and private practice on therapyden, right, there's like, these better help workers. So that didn't feel good. It felt like that was like bad user experience. I'm also deceiving that, you know, potential client that's looking for a therapist, or things that they're looking for a therapist in Santa Monica, California, but really, for some random, betterhelp person. But what he was offering was like, every time somebody clicks on a better help therapist in your therapy, then listing and they sign up for an account, even if it's just a free account at first first month, or first week free, we will give you $300.   Katie Vernoy  28:06 Whoa!   Jeff Guenther  28:09 And let's say I would have taken that deal and therapy down would have continued to grow at the pace that it would have grown at which probably wouldn't have happened, or maybe would have happened even more, I don't know. Let's say that, like I'm getting, you know, us a small chunk of you know, we measure how many people are getting referrals through therapy, then if we took like a percentage of the people getting referrals through therapy, then maybe like a small percentage of it like 1000 people a month or something. If 1000 people a month we're connecting with these better help therapist we'd get about $300,000 a month. Probably a lot more though. So he was saying like, you can you'll eventually get between maybe like 250,000 to $500,000 a month, if you let us put these third health practitioners in your therapist directory, which I don't know if that I mean, that would have like cannibalized the therapists directory, it would have probably become just like pride counseling or teen counseling, calm or whatever, they just would have taken an over, but we would have made a ton of money. And if it still would have been going on today, we'd be making hundreds of 1000s of dollars, at least at minimum per month.   Curt Widhalm  29:27 How do you pass up that money? Honestly. I mean, we all we all have our dollar about and as I was sitting here since you reached out to me it's from when Jeff first reached out to me to record date spin but a week and a half. I'm like for a couple million dollars a year like I could do basically whatever I want. And like then you just start going down like that that fantasy like oh, what What do I really want to do? But it's really not worth doing $2 million here, like, how do you pass up that kind of money. And on top of that, they're offering therapists like $500, like, one time to sign up for this stuff. So like, hold out people, like you can get more than 500.   Jeff Guenther  30:21 Exactly. Um, you know, I, there's like, this capitalist inside of me, like it's inside of everybody. Yeah, I'm sure that I really regret not taking that deal. And just cashing out. How do I pass it up? Oh, there's a big part of me that's kicking myself for passing. Another part of me, you know, I there's like a real deep seated like, angsty teenager inside of me, that's always like, Fuck the man. And betterhelp felt like the man. And so and it felt like selling out. So there was that I didn't want to be a sellout. It was, I don't know, like, you know, I was raised in, I was a teenager in the 90s. And selling out was the worst they could be. And so that's very embedded into my DNA. I'm also I think, and this is like, part of my, I don't know, something ego or whatever. But like, I think therapy then can be even bigger than what better help is offering me, I think that it can be even more successful. So I'm like 2 million, fuck your 2 million. How about 20 million. And like, that's what I think therapy den is worth. It's not worth that. But maybe it will be eventually. And that's what I hope, like I saying, like, you're going to sell out, you're going to get like, you know, shamed and I and I might not be able to create any other therapy products ever again, I might not be able to be like, be taken seriously, I was just starting to podcast at that time, I really wanted to be an authority. And I wanted to be taken seriously. And I felt like that would like really, like it was too early for me to sell out. I think there's like a lot more good that I have that I want to contribute to the industry.   Curt Widhalm  32:13 If you're from better help, and you're listening, call me.   Katie Vernoy  32:20 Curt's ready to sell us out, or just, maybe personally, you're ready to sell out, you can still keep our stuff. Is that what you're telling me?   Jeff Guenther  32:27 Better help was also kind of breaking it down, like so will pay $300 a referral. And they make on average 12 $100 per subscriber. So they're totally willing to make that bet. And they might be making more than that, but back two or so years ago, was like, Yeah, not a bad return on investment pains. $300 to make 12 $100, I think anybody would probably want that. So like, it just sort of like made financial sense to them. And, and it felt gross. And I had just a part of me that regrets it. I'm like, mostly proud of myself for not selling out.   Katie Vernoy  33:07 I think there's a part of me that's maybe a little Pollyanna ish or naive, but I think there's this. Well, if I had that kind of money, I could do a lot of real good in the world. Now, if you've sold yourself out, and you've cannibalized a really important product that you provide, or a service that you provide, I think that becomes very hard to do. So I appreciate that part of what you were saying, because I think like, well, if somebody were to give me $500,000 a month, there is so much I could do with that money. But that doesn't matter if I've like basically gone to the dark side. So   Jeff Guenther  33:45 yeah, and I wonder how much money better help was going to give brighter vision. If they're making 12 $100 off one subscriber slash client. How much money are they making, when they hire a therapist, a therapist is going to make is going to bring in a ton of money for them. Yeah. So Perry and brighter vision we're probably getting, we're offered like a pretty sweet partnership deal.   Katie Vernoy  34:09 So for them, they give six months free of their service, which is like $70. So   Jeff Guenther  34:15 A month Yeah,   Katie Vernoy  34:16 yeah. $70 a month. So   Curt Widhalm  34:19 500 ish.   Katie Vernoy  34:21 So that said they were giving away $500 worth of services. So they must be getting at least $1500. Right. Like you don't, at least. Yeah, yeah. So it's we don't know, we're purely conjecture. But   Curt Widhalm  34:36 We do have to wrap up here today. And, you know, I think this is something where Katie and I and all the time that we've known Jeff as well can really speak to having a values driven business model. And while that may not necessarily be it in the most rewarding way in our pocket book, when compared to Some of the alternatives here. It is something where you can know that standing behind companies like therapy den, and Katie and myself with therapy reimagined the podcast here and that we do really take the effort to look at who it is that we partner with. And in order to remain consistent to who we are. And we know Jeff is a stand up person. And really, because of this history, and knowing some of these decisions that we all make, and this makes it to where, you know, we're hoping to leave this field a better place for all of us. And we encourage you to do the same kinds of things for yourself and for the industry as well. And so, you know, in keeping with all of this stuff, how can people stay updated with what you've got going on Jeff?   Jeff Guenther  35:59 Yeah, they can go ahead and create a profile therapists go ahead and create a profile therapy.com, it's totally free, you'll be added to the newsletter, you can contact me at therapy.com. It goes right to my inbox, I love to reply to all of those messages. They I also produce a podcast called the swoon podcast, it's for it's about love and sex and relationship advice. There's, and I want to just sort of like in this being like, yeah, there are lots of therapists and businesses that are creating value based products and services. And as therapists we can tell, like who those companies are, and I and I want you all to just say no to better help, and talkspace and companies like that, like they're not serving us, and they're changing our industry, in some of like the worst ways possible. If I would have let better help integrate their, like their listings into therapy, then then you wouldn't have been able to filter for therapists that are queer, competent, and trans competent, you know, like they they don't ask for that sort of information from their therapists. They don't have that data, like the whole progressive filtering system on therapy done, which is the heart of the website wouldn't exist, because they don't really care about, like figuring out competencies are asking for therapists beliefs, and values and all of the stuff that clients are really interested in right now. Sorry, that was a little bit of a soapbox, you can you should sign up for therapy. It's totally free. If you want to pay you can. You can choose to pay for your subscription. You can choose to pay 1020 or $30 per month or $0 a month. It's totally up to you.   Curt Widhalm  37:46 And we'll include links to all of Jeff's stuff in our show notes at mcsg podcast comm also check out the therapy reimagined conference, it's coming up in a hybrid format here at the end of September, and get all of the latest updates at therapy, reimagined conference calm or on our social media. And Katie and I will be presenting, we'll have a presentation at this conference. And the focus of it is really going to be about having a practice that can be values driven and well, companies like better help and talkspace. And all of these ones exist around us and taking lessons learned from industries like taxis and blockbuster and helping us to not make the same kinds of mistakes. So look out for that content as well as a ton of our great speakers. Therapy reimagined conference calm, and until next time. I'm currently on with Katie Vernoy and Jeff Gunther.   Katie Vernoy  38:44 Thanks again to our sponsor, the HealthCasters   Curt Widhalm  38:48 Wanted to tell you guys a little bit of what's included in the health casters podcasting course they did include simple step by step videos to take your podcast from idea to one that generates income when it launches also includes cheat sheets and templates Dr. Melvin Varghese uses for the selling the couch podcast, whether it's scripts to reach out to guest templates to let guests know that podcast is live. The recently released the podcast episode tracker the simple sheet helps keep your podcast episodes organized, whether you want to reference them later or repurpose them for content in the future. You can also choose to upgrade the purchase of course the community of over 250 other therapists podcasts. This includes monthly group one on one coaching calls with Melvin and you can learn more health casters, it's sellingthecouch.com/jointhehealthcasters   Katie Vernoy  39:38 into the promo code therapy reimagined at checkout for $100 off the listed price. And just a reminder that sellingthecouch.com/jointhehealthcasters.   Announcer  39:48 Thank you for listening to the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide. Learn more about who we are and what we do at mtsgpodcast.com. You can also join us on Facebook and Twitter. And please don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any of our episodes  

Before we jump into this week’s episode I have a few things I want to share with you: 1. I’m having a SALE! My Podcourses are $5 off through June 5 and if you didn’t know I'm a NBCC approved provider and each Podcourse is 1 contact hour. To get the discount use the code md5off at checkout. You’ll see a place to apply the code. And you can still get your first course for free when you sign up for my newsletter. So head to my site www.lisamustard.com/podcourses/ to check them all out! 2. My friend Sarah Leitschuh is doing a really neat thing. She creates virtual work sessions for therapists. The sessions are coworking sessions where you have 2 hours to work on the task of your choosing with structured support and accountability. The sessions happen on zoom and they are a lot of fun plus you’ll get stuff done and connect with some amazing people. Learn more: https://www.sarahleitschuh.com/virtual-work-sessions/ Melvin Varghese is a psychologist, husband, and proud founder of Selling the Couch podcast and blog. He admits he is a total nerd when it comes to marketing and social media.  He’s invested hundreds of hours in seeing what works and what doesn’t. And along the way he shares his insights with the community he has created. He has been able to design a life he loves and doesn’t need a vacation from.  In this episode he shares what it was like to start his podcast, how he figured out how to monetize it, why he decided to step away from clinical work, and his best tips to help you create your side gig. Get started with Podcasting today with Melvin's course & community, The Healthcasters. Join the Selling The Couch Online Library of Tools & Resources. If you're enjoying the show, please consider leaving me a 5 star rating and review! Thank you! This episode is sponsored by my favorite active wear line. Want to be more comfortable while sitting on the therapist couch? I sure did and went looking for athleisure wear and activewear that was soft, wrinkle resistant and would match just about anything I already had in my closet. I wanted stylish and high quality apparel that wouldn't break my bank account. And now Zyia Active makes up about 80% of my wardrobe. Want to learn more? Head to lisamustard.com/active-wear. Don’t think this is just for women, they have mens’ and kids’ clothes too. Our family is loving the styles and quality while I love the price tags! So head over to my site to check it out. ZYIA is available in the US and Canada. You can also join my Facebook group where I share the latest releases and promotions.

Today’s solo episode is a show I’ve wanted to do, but it’s a vulnerable topic for me. This show highlights a moment of joy because it means I’m listening to my hopes and dreams and not my fears. Our Featured Guest Melvin Varghese, PhD During this last year, I’ve made the decision not to be a therapist in private practice any longer but to dedicate 100% of my time to STC, serving our field and our colleagues in this way. I’ll give you a behind-the-scenes look at this decision, share these big and painful moments in the business journey, and provide encouragement for anyone who is sitting on a dream in fear of moving forward. I’m sharing my professional story, the reasons that led to this decision, and answer questions that you might have for me. You’ll Learn: ●     My story of starting as a pre-med major to be a pediatrician before switching to psychology ●     How I felt that psychology was my life’s calling ●     How I was fascinated with therapists in clinical work in very exciting and unusual fields ●     How I learned valuable lessons about multiple streams of income and seeing my acquired skills applicable in other domains outside the therapy room ●     How I realized that having two businesses was in conflict with my core values about ease and flow in life ●     Five realizations that led to my decision: ○     I learned that managing and growing just one business is really hard. ○     I have clear clarity on my life’s calling, which is serving through STC. ○     I want to keep my ideal schedule. ○     I want to create more margin in my life to enjoy the business journey. ○     I want to do more consulting and coaching. ●     Questions you may have about my psychology license, my future, STC and the podcast, and regrets Today’s Podcast Sponsor https://www.tidemarkva.com/ (Tidemark VA Services) provides billing, credentialing, client scheduling, and social media management services to therapists in private practice. I especially like that the owner, Brittany, is a group practice owner as well, so she knows the ins and outs of our field. Learn more about the services Tidemark provides athttps://sellingthecouch.com/tidemark. ( )https://sellingthecouch.com/tidemark (https://sellingthecouch.com/tidemark)https://sellingthecouch.com/tidemark. (.)   Be sure to use the code “STC2021” for a 15% discount for the first three months.  RESOURCES TO GUIDE YOUR BUSINESS JOURNEY Disclosures: Please note that all opinions are my own and based on my personal experience. Sponsors are acknowledged. Some links in the description are affiliate links where if you click on one of the product links, I’ll receive a commission at no additional cost to you. I use these funds to continue to create helpful content to serve our field. As an Amazon Associate, I earn a small commission from qualifying purchases. MY FREE ONLINE WORKSHOPS (These Can Be Watched At A Date/Time That Works For You): https://sellingthecouch.easywebinar.live/registration (Using Podcasting To Grow Your Business (Lessons Learned From 9 Downloads On Day 1 To 1.2 Million And a 7 Income Stream, 6-Figure Business)) https://sellingthecouch.easywebinar.live/registration-3 (How To Launch And Grow A Successful Online Course (Lessons Learned From A $297 First Sale To $150k Online Course)) MY FREE GUIDES: https://sellingthecouch.com/podcastingguide (Start your Podcast: The QuickStart Guide) https://sellingthecouch.com/onlinecourseguide (The A To Z Online Course) MY COURSES: https://sellingthecouch.com/jointhehealthcasters (The Healthcasters) (A podcasting course + community for helpers/healers):... Support this podcast

Do you love learning new things but struggle to retain the information you’d like to remember for later use? This problem is an ever-present obstacle in my nerdy quest to accumulate knowledge. The good news? I’ve found something that works for me, and I’m sharing it in today’s show. Join me to learn more. This is a solo episode about building a second brain. You may or may not have heard of this concept, but it has revolutionized my life. As I stick to my commitment of setting aside two hours every day to learn new things, I find that I can grow as a business owner, gain knowledge and expertise, become more proficient in offering valuable products and services, and improve my physical and mental health. The problem is that I can’t always remember everything I read, hear, and think. That’s where the magic of the second brain comes in to help. Let’s dive in. You’ll Learn: ●     How note-taking helps me remember things and stay organized ●     How I was introduced to the “second brain concept” through the work of Ali Abdaal, a physician in England ●     The basics of the second brain: Instead of feeling pressure to store accumulated knowledge in my brain, I can store it online in a digital brain ●     How the second brain principles of productivity were developed by world-renowned productivity expert Tiago Forte, who has a free 10-part podcast on the topic (see Resources) ●     Ten Principles in Building a Second Brain: ○     Borrowed creativity ○     The capture habit ○     Idea recycling ○     Projects over categories ○     Slow burns ○     Start with abundance ○     Intermediate packets ○     You only know what you make ○     Make things easier for your future self ○     Keep your ideas moving ●     “The key is not to just consume content, but to personalize and recycle it.” Resources mentioned: http://www.aliabdaal.com/ (Ali Abdaal) http://www.fortelabs.com/ (Forte Labs)  Find the 10-part podcast series on Building a Second Brain at https://fortelabs.co/blog/basbpodcast/ (Forte Labs) Apps and tools recommended by Melvin: For live transcription of Mastermind groups: http://www.otter.ai/ (Otter) For pulling highlights from Kindle books: http://www.readwise.io/ (Readwise)  For capturing snippets of podcasts: http://www.airr.io/ (Airr)  For pulling highlights from blog posts: http://www.instapaper.com/ (Instapaper)  To use a central repository for information: http://www.notion.so/ (Notion) or http://www.evernote.com/ (Evernote) or http://www.roamresearch.com/ (Roam Research.com)   Transcript:Melvin: Hey friends, welcome to session 264 of Selling the Couch, I hope that you are having a wonderful day. So today's episode is a solo one. And I wanted to start this episode by sharing a story or rather a scenario. As you may have figured out based on these podcasts episodes, I’m a little bit of a nerd when it comes to learning new things. And in fact, as Selling the Couch has grown and as I've really worked hard to create a schedule that's conducive to both doing things as well as ample time learning. What I have actually tried to do is set aside two hours each afternoon to simply learn. And these days, I'm learning about podcasting, because, as you know, I'm a podcaster, and the world of podcasting is constantly growing. And so I think a lot about how to grow the STC podcast. I also have a course called Healthcasters, which helps you create and launch a successful podcast. And I'm learning a lot about online courses as well, because Healthcasters is an online course,... Support this podcast

This is the follow-up to last week’s podcast about creating a professional livestream. We’ve already covered the gear you’ll need, so today’s show focuses on creating the content for your livestream. Join me for Part 2! If you listened to Episode 258, you might be saying, “OK, Melvin, I have the gear, so what else do I need to do to prep for my livestream?” I’m glad you asked! After only doing livestreams for a few months, I’ve already learned a lot (including some very cool timesaving hacks and helpful tools), and I’m eager to share those experiences with you. www.sellingthecouch.com/session259  

Today’s show is the first of a two-part series about livestreaming. I jumped somewhat hesitantly into this world a few months ago, and surprisingly, I’ve enjoyed this new outlet. Join me as I share what I’ve learned about livestreaming. I was nervous about starting The STC Online Income Stream because I am usually self-conscious on video. I’ve become more comfortable and more familiar with being in front of the camera over these months of livestreaming. My livestream focuses on podcasting and online courses, but I have plans to expand into other content areas. The current format is set for 15-minute talks about growing our impact and income beyond the therapy room, sharing tips and strategies that have proven to be successful. Today’s episode is all about the technical gear needed to set up a livestream, and next week’s Part 2 will focus on livestream content creation. www.sellingthecouch.com/session258    

Today’s show is a special episode as we celebrate STC hitting the ONE MILLION downloads’ milestone. When I started the podcast, I thought one million downloads was a reasonable 20-year-goal, but here we are, just five years along in the journey. To mark this occasion, I’m going solo today with advice to the younger me, or what I wish I had known five years ago. www.sellingthecouch.com/session249  

Today’s show is about something a bit different, even though we’re in the middle of the coronavirus crisis. I’ve learned that we should have a virtual aspect of our business in place for scenarios like this. I’ve also learned how important diverse income streams can be when your regular practice is interrupted. I can’t maintain my business health if I rely solely on my clients. Five years ago, I launched my first online course, so now I’m sharing lessons learned over that time, especially about gear. Remember, though, that gear should help you achieve your goals and not just be another way to spend money. www.sellingthecouch.com/session233  

As STC has grown, I’ve been wanting to address this topic of getting on other podcasts as a guest. In a typical week, I receive several requests from people wanting to be a guest on STC.  There are several reasons why I cannot accept every one of those requests, and there are things to consider in remaining authentic while seeking podcast appearances. In this solo episode, we discuss some tips to follow if you want to increase your exposure by appearing on podcasts. www.sellingthecouch.com/session229    

TITLE The Unspoken Strengths of the Highly Sensitive Person—Mainly, the Power of Our Presence GUEST Solo Episode EPISODE OVERVIEW HSPs have a powerful ability to show up and be present for others.  We often feel less than because we compare the accomplishments of others without realizing that we hold space, listen and notice things in a powerful way.  Our society is very oriented to doing. For the Highly Sensitive Person, we excel at being, which is not always appreciated, recognized or valued.  In this episode, we also look at a number of the perceived weaknesses of HSPs and talk about the corresponding strengths/superpowers we have.  HIGHLIGHTS Episode 59 with Azul Terronez called Influence Comes from Service really highlights many of the unspoken strengths of the Highly Sensitive Person (HSP) Our culture tends to measure success in terms of doing and achievements vs. the power of presence and being As HSPs, we have an amazing ability to hold space, listen, recognize and observe things that most people don’t We are often the emotional glue that holds our families and relationships together It’s often easy for use to measure the non-HSPs parts of our relationships to others, and to forget how powerful our presence is to others Often systems are set up in ways that can make us feel that there is something wrong with us, but it’s the system or person that isn’t functional/responsive or able to meet our need(s) Many of us have the wound of too much and not enough When we start comparing, we WILL feel inadequate How can we honor what comes up for us, and be able to address the subtext (when appropriate)? THIS is our greatest strength POSITIVE MESSAGES—OUR SUPERPOWERS I value self-care, and am in need of rest and recharging I process more information on a deeper level I’m good at trying new things and I enjoy the moment I trust my process and I take the time I need I’m not afraid to feel I’m in touch with my emotions I feel things deeply; it’s healthy and I’m strong, and it allow me to be myself I see things that others don’t What I do is valuable What I bring is valuable I am valuable I am so beautifully in touch with myself, which is a gift to myself, and others. Everyone is doing their best I teach others by example how to feel deeply and how to experience a wide range of human emotions PODCAST HOST Patricia Young works with Highly Sensitive People (HSPs) helping them to understand their HSP traits, and turning their perceived shortcomings into superpowers. Patricia is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker, and is passionate about providing education to help HSPs and non-HSPs understand and truly appreciate the amazing gifts they have to offer. Patricia works globally online with HSPs providing coaching. Patricia also facilitates online groups for HSPs that focus on building community and developing skills (identifying your superpowers, boundaries, perfectionism, dealing with conflict, mindfulness, embracing emotions, creating a lifestyle that supports the HSP, communication and more). LINKS Episode 59 Influence comes from service with Azul Terronez https://unapologeticallysensitive.com/episode-59/   Episode 5 I gave myself permission to be me, and not place undue expectations about who I should be with Melvin Varghese, PhD https://unapologeticallysensitive.com/unapologetically-sensitive-episode-5/   Episode 17 part 1 & 2 Conversations with a non-binary HS Therapist with Dara Hoffman-Fox https://unapologeticallysensitive.com/unapologetically-sensitive-episode-17-part-1/ https://unapologeticallysensitive.com/unapologetically-sensitive-episode-17-part-2/ To write a review in itunes: click on this link https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/unapologetically-sensitive/id1440433481?mt=2 select “listen on Apple Podcasts” chose “open in itunes” choose “ratings and reviews” click to rate the number of starts click “write a review” HSP Online Course--https://unapologeticallysensitive.com/hsp-online-groups/   Website--www.unapologeticallysensitive.com Facebook-- https://www.facebook.com/Unapologetically-Sensitive-2296688923985657/ Facebook group Unapologetically Sensitive-- https://www.facebook.com/groups/2099705880047619/ Instagram-- https://www.instagram.com/unapologeticallysensitive/ Youtube-- https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOE6fodj7RBdO3Iw0NrAllg/videos?view_as=subscriber e-mail-- unapologeticallysensitive@gmail.com Show hashtag--#unapologeticallysensitive Music-- Gravel Dance by Andy Robinson www.andyrobinson.com

Welcome to a solo episode! I wanted to take this opportunity to discuss how I’ve revamped my private practice website. The process has been very intentional for me, and I’ve enlisted the help of several other people. Maybe you are considering changes to your website, but you aren’t sure where to begin. I hope today’s “inside look” at a private practice website is helpful to you. www.sellingthecouch.com/session225  

In this episode, The Practice of Therapy celebrates its 100th EPISODE! Gordon plays clips from some of his favorite episodes, including guests like Jeff Guenther, Allison Puryear, Joe Sanok, Kasey Compton, Mike Michalowicz, Paul Jarvis, Melvin Varghese, and David Hall. The clips cover a variety of private practice topics like marketing, return on investment, processes, systems, and how to find support. Jeff Guenther: Say More About That In this clip, Jeff Guenther talks about why some therapists get “ghosted” by their clients and he also gives specific examples. His podcast, Say More About That, dives deep into the client's personal journey of finding a therapist and going to counseling. Jeff talks to people about why they wanted to go to therapy, what kind of therapist they were looking for, and why. He covers why some mental health counselors were excellent matches and why others didn't work and also touches on what they thought therapy was going to be like and if it met their expectations. Say More About That asks their guests if they have advice for therapists to help them be better or more effective counselors. Jeff Guenther, LPC, is a therapist in Portland, OR. He has been in private practice since 2005 and currently leads workshops on how therapists can build their digital brand and attract more clients online. TherapyDen Say More About That Jeff Guenther | What Clients Are Saying About Their Therapists | TPOT Podcast 075   Allison Puryear: Marketing Isn't Scary The most common struggle for private practice owners is being afraid to market and being uncomfortable with the idea of marketing. Some people think marketing is something a businessperson does, not a clinician. Allison says every client has their ideal therapist out there. It is up to the therapist, as an act of service, to help our clients find us and overcome their struggles. Know that it is about showing up and continuing to try and build your practice. If someone has a phone call during their first two weeks of private practice, then that's an anomaly. If you build it, they will not come; you have to tell people about your practice to build it. Allison Puryear, LCSW is the person behind Abundance Practice Building, Abundance Party, and is a private practice coach and consultant. TPOT 006 |Allison Puryear, LCSW | Marketing Your Private Practice Without Fear   Joe Sanok: Return on Investment (ROI) Depending on which phase of growth you are in, it will determine where and how a clinician in private practice should spend their time and money resources to get the best ROI. When you start your private practice, your greatest asset is the time you spend. In this phase, attention should be spent on bootstrapping and marketing your practice. Spend time making those community contacts and developing relationships with other professionals in your business. Plus, Joe explains the benefits of outsourcing as much as possible so you can continue running your practice and seeing clients. Joe Sanok is the person behind The Practice of the Practice Podcast and Blog. Joe is a speaker, mental health counselor, business consultant, and podcaster. Joe Sanok | How to Level-Up and Grow Your Private Practice | TPOT Podcast 11   Kasey Compton: Processes and Systems Kasey's phenomenal growth (80 staff members and a million-dollar practice in just three years) came primarily out of her ability to create processes and systems to make the growth as seamless as possible. She put most of her effort on the front end into mapping things out so that the processes and systems were well defined. Kasey also said that she made some mistakes and learned from them rather than let them ultimately defeat her. For instance, her partner was high-strung, which made their workplace culture toxic. Three years later, the people who quit her practice are back and notice the immense changes. Kasey Compton built a million-dollar practice with over seventy-five staff members in less than two years from the ground up. She is the President/CEO of Mindsight Behavioral Group with multiple offices located in Kentucky. Kasey Compton | Systems, Processes & Growing a Million-Dollar Private Practice | TPOT Podcast 047   Mike Michalowicz: Profit First With Mike's “Profit First” system, he turns conventional wisdom on its head and gives us another way of thinking about how we manage our finances and look at profit. The traditional way of thinking about making a profit is this: Income – Expenses = Profit It's what we get to keep after everything else is paid for; operating expenses, salaries, and taxes. The problem is that the bigger we grow, the more our expenses grow too. It becomes a never-ending cycle that keeps our profitability at bay and keeps our businesses unhealthy. Mike says this line of thinking is kind of like saying, “my health comes last.” Mike says that a better way is to allocate our profit first rather than let our expenses and operating costs determine what we get. The premise is to allocate a percentage of the income on the front end for profit. It looks like this: Income – Profit = Expenses This, of course, seems like unconventional wisdom. Mike goes on to explain that by taking our profit first, we are better able to take control of our business' health and operate at a level that is more sustainable and realistic.  By Mike Michalowicz's 35th birthday, he had founded and sold two companies – one to private equity and another to a Fortune 500. Today he is running his third multi-million dollar venture, Profit First Professionals. Mike's Website Get the Free Clockwork Kit Mike Michalowicz | Using “Profit First” In Your Private Practice (Part 2) | with Kasey Compton | TPOT Podcast 050 Mike Michalowicz | Using “Profit First” In Your Private Practice | with Kasey Compton | TPOT Podcast 049   Paul Jarvis: Bigger Isn't Always Better If people are working from home, then others think they do not have a legitimate business. Paul is a one-person business; he does work with contractors but has never hired an employee because he doesn't want to be a boss. We should reconsider the idea that bigger is always better. Paul's book isn't about anti-growth; it is thinking critically about growth. The key is to think about how the business works and runs. If we grew our businesses, we would have to hire people and then become a manager. Is that the position you want to put yourself in? Paul Jarvis is a writer and designer who's had his own company of one for the last two decades. His latest book, Company of One, explores why bigger isn't always better in business. Company of One, The Podcast Paul's Website Company of One: Why Staying Small Is the Next Big Thing for Business Paul Jarvis | How Keeping Your Practice Small Could Be Big… | TPOT Podcast 086   Melvin Varghese: Income in Private Practice If all you do is focus on income generation, you are eventually going to burn out. Time flexibility and creating a lifestyle that makes sense is far more critical than the money you will make. When a person reaches a net income of around $150,000 annually, then it just becomes unmanageable. Their quality of life will not increase with additional money. It is better to have a strong foundation that lasts long-term rather than something that takes off quickly and fizzles out. Melvin Varghese, Ph.D., is a licensed psychologist in private practice in Philadelphia, PA. In 2015, he launched Selling The Couch, a podcast and blog to help our field learn the business and marketing lessons we don't often learn in our training.  Melvin Varghese, Ph.D. | Podcasting, And Entrepreneurship In Private Practice | TPOT Podcast 078   David Hall: Finding Supports From Others in Private Practice Private practice can be lonely sometimes; we should find like-minded people to support us in our journeys. David gives us thoughts on proximity and finding support. Support can come in many different forms, and David speaks on ways to find resources and how to get your name out into your community. Dr. Stephen “David” Hall heads up content and creative direction as the “Chief Maven” of PsychMaven. He began his work as a psychotherapist in 2005, and he currently holds clinical licenses in Family Therapy and Mental Health Counseling. The Narrative Institute PsychMaven David Hall | Being A Private Practice Maven | TPOT Podcast 087 Being transparent… Some of the resources below use affiliate links which simply means we receive a commission if you purchase using the links, at no extra cost to you. Thanks for using the links!   Resources Therapy Notes Free Webinar: Business Entities For Private Practice Be a Podcast Guest Money Matters in Private Practice | The Course Follow @TPOTpodcast on Instagram Meet Gordon Brewer, MEd, LMFT Gordon is the person behind The Practice of Therapy Podcast & Blog. He is also President and Founder of Kingsport Counseling Associates, PLLC. He is a therapist, consultant, business mentor, trainer, and writer.  PLEASE Subscribe to The Practice of Therapy Podcast on iTunes, Stitcher and Google Play. Follow us on Twitter @therapistlearn and Pinterest “Like” us on Facebook

Today’s show is a solo episode inspired by a recent roundtable that I led with some local therapists here in the Philadelphia area. A question came up that I’m asked often: “How do I know when I’m ready to launch a podcast?” There is no set time that’s right for everyone, but there are several factors to consider. That’s where today’s discussion takes us. You can read the full show notes at: Session207

Aimee J sits down with Melvin Varghese to talk podcasting in this 2017 interview for the Mid-Atlantic Podcast Conference Show.

As we wrap up this season, it’s a good time to evaluate where we are in our businesses. I thought it would be good to talk about how I structure my days and weeks to maximize productivity, focus on self-care, and stay intentional about working ON my business and not IN it. As a self-proclaimed productivity nerd, I’ve learned these things through trial and error and trying new things and tweaking them until they work best for me. I hope there are some good ideas here that will work for you! You can read the full show notes at: Session203

Have you ever thought about creating a podcast? Podcasting can be an amazing way to create relationships, add new income streams to your business and position you as an authority in your niche. But going from that “someday I’ll start a podcast” dream-stage to actually recording and launching it to the world can be a big project. To help you navigate all this podcasting overwhelm with ease, I sat down with Melvin Varghese from Selling The Couch. And in this week’s episode, Melvin shares the top 5 mistakes that therapists make when launching a podcast. Listen in now and get started!

I never thought I’d have to do an episode like this one, but unfortunate events have brought me face-to-face with reality. One of my team members, Karen, was diagnosed with an aggressive form of cancer earlier this year. Although she was undergoing chemo and radiation, she passed away a few weeks ago. Karen was an important part of the STC team who helped me a lot, especially in handling Facebook ads. The challenge for me has been balancing the grieving process while trying to carry on and pick up the pieces of Karen’s work. In this solo episode, we’re looking at things I’ve had to consider in new ways that might spur you to think about planning ahead in very practical ways. You can read the full show notes at: Session199

In this episode, Gordon speaks with Melvin Varghese of Selling the Couch Podcast. Melvin shares what inspired him to start the podcast and all the challenges he has faced along the way. Eventually, people reached out to Melvin and wanted to know exactly how to start a podcast. This led Marvin to create webinars and an online community to help others get started on their podcasting path. Meet Melvin Varghese Melvin Varghese, Ph.D. is a licensed psychologist in private practice in Philadelphia, PA.  In 2015, he launched Selling The Couch (sellingthecouch.com), a podcast and blog to help our field learn the business and marketing lessons we don't often learn in our training.  On the podcast, he interviews successful practitioners about how they've built their businesses and shares lessons he's learning on his own business journey.  The podcast was one of the top new podcasts when it launched and has since been downloaded over 700k and is heard in over 125 countries.  Melvin also founded The Healthcasters (sellingthecouch.com/healthcasters), a community of over 200 health/wellness business owners using podcasting to share their message while growing their businesses. Selling the Couch Melvin loves the thought of doing an audio podcast because he doesn't have to be all dressed up. The second reason he started a podcast is to be part of a growing medium. He realized we are at the tip of the iceberg in terms of podcasting. It has grown now; fifty-one percent of the US population is listening to podcasts. Seven years ago if you asked someone what a podcast was, they would have no idea! At first, Melvin was terrified of starting a podcast. He is shy and had a bit of imposter syndrome. It took a lot of courage; ultimately he did not want to live a life of regret. Income in Private Practice If all you do is focus on income generation, you are eventually going to burn out. Time flexibility and creating a lifestyle that makes sense is far more critical than the money you will make. When a person reaches a net income of around $150,000 annually, then it just becomes unmanageable. Their quality of life will not increase with additional money. It is better to have a strong foundation that lasts long-term rather than something that takes off quickly and fizzles out. Podcasting Melvin figured out everything on his own and made just about every mistake in the book. After starting his podcast, people began reaching out for help with starting their podcast. He thought about creating a community for health and wellness business owners to start podcasts. Melvin has an e-course, an online community, and monthly phone calls. Podcasting is a service-based platform; you get to share your knowledge and expertise. People from all over the world can hear what you say. For example, Melvin's first episode had nine downloads (five from family members). Now it is approaching 700,000 downloads. He records his podcast from a home office in Philadelphia. Melvin's Resources Selling the Couch Selling the Couch Facebook Community The HealthCasters Email: Melvin@SellingTheCouch.com Resources Mentioned Being transparent… some of the resources below contain affiliate links. This simply means that if you make a purchase using the link, we get a commission at no extra cost to you. Thanks for using the links! 191: How to Use G Suite As a Tool For Managing a Private Practice Practice Solutions Money Matters in Private Practice >>Get the FREE Financial Analysis Guide

Should we congratulate men for fulfilling their role as parents? Years ago it was not expected for a man to change a diaper, prepare a baby's bottle, or even fulfill their role as a parent in general. This was, and still is, one of many problems couples can have when having a baby. But thanks to a change in mentality and beliefs in some communities, men are starting to assume the role of fatherhood with harmony. And it's such a good change! In this episode Dr. Roman talks with Dr. Melvin Varghese about the importance of men being present in their child's lives and fulfilling their roles as a complete father figure. Dr. Varghese was born in Kerala, India; he immigrated to the USA with his family in order to have a better life. In 2004 he completed a Bachelor in Psychology and after 5 years, a 120 page dissertation, and over 3,000 hours of counseling, he graduated with PhD. In 2015 he launched the first episode of his Podcast “Selling the Couch” which now has passed 175,000 downloads and has listeners in over 65 countries. Dr. Carmen Roman is a dedicated clinical psychologist who helps parents, families, and community leaders who have suffered from trauma, anxiety or stress to manage their emotions, guiding them to a harmonious life. This week you'll learn: How do men feel when men get involved in their children’s lives? Reasons why they don't get involved How can we get parents to work as a team? How can we integrate men into parenthood? Give us some love! Donate here:   https://www.patreon.com/emotionsinharmony   https://www.paypal.com/us/fundraiser/charity/3403609   Connect with Dr. Melvin Varghese Website https://sellingthecouch.com/ Facebook Group https://www.facebook.com/groups/1529269850672775/ Twitter https://twitter.com/MVarghese5 Connect with Dr. Carmen Roman Website www.emotionsinharmony.org   Email her at carmen@emotionsinharmony.org Facebook https://www.facebook.com/EmotionsinHarmony/ Instagram https://www.Instagram.com/EmotionsinHarmony Twitter https://twitter.com/DraCarmenRoman   YouTube www.Youtube.com/c/ArmoniaEmocional Amazon https://www.amazon.com/shop/dracarmenroman

Curt and Katie reflect on 100 podcast episodes, what the experience has been like, and where we want to take the podcast next.    It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age. In this episode we talk about: How much we appreciate listener connection and feedback Self-reflection on the previous 99 episodes A new hashtag: #teamcurtie Our switch from 2 episodes per week to 1 episode per week How podcasting has improved our speaking and thought processes The impact of hearing from listeners of the podcast at the conference How we recorded and put out the Therapist Safety episodes Our goal to catalyze the diverse voices in our community to stand up How we have made mistakes publicly in order to have healing conversations publicly The level of disclosure we have on the podcast The surprise that our moms aren’t the only people listening every week The way we talk about our profession in order to improve it How we are going to grow and change the podcast What are #moderntherapist conversations (and what are not) Guiding principles of what we’re talking about How we are different from other groups, other podcasts The origin of the podcast as a marketing plan for a conference, and then it evolved into its own thing Our Generous Sponsor: Thanks again to our sponsor Katie Read! Katie helps therapists grow and they OUTgrow their practices. If you're in GROW mode, she can help you grow faster by knowing exactly how to create your therapist website to get the most possible calls with her two courses, Client Machine and Website Whisperer! If you're ready to OUTgrow your office, Katie helps clinicians know the exact right steps to add big extra income streams in coaching, consulting, or courses! Check out www.katieread.com for more information. Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Melvin Varghese’s Healthcasters Course Relevant Episodes: So You Want to Plan a Conference Therapist Safety Attracted Clients Let’s Talk About Race Again Vulnerability, the News, and You Toxic Work Environments Take Action Like a BOSS Social Media and Video Marketing with Ernesto Segismundo, Jr M.S. LMFT Becoming a Group Practice Owner with Maureen Werrbach   Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group Therapy Reimagined 2019 Our CALL FOR SPEAKERS!!   Our consultation services: The Fifty-Minute Hour   Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it. Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.   Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com www.therapyreimagined.com Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/ https://twitter.com/therapymovement https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/   Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/

Today’s solo episode is an honest look at my journey as a business owner, especially concerning finances and business expenses. I always try to be transparent with you about my successes, and I think it’s equally important to be honest about the struggles, too. As we take a look back at how I structured my business to pay myself and track my expenses, you’ll see that I became less cautious with my spending. It was the principles set forth in a popular book that set this personal finance junkie on the happy path to saving money, managing profit, and finding peace. You can read the full show notes at: Session186  

An interview with Melvin Varghese, Ph.D., on how he has created and nurtured three therapist-related businesses. Curt and Katie talk with him about how he decided what to create and how he manages these endeavors.   It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age. Interview with Melvin Varghese, Ph.D.  Melvin Varghese, PhD is a psychologist in private practice (melvinvarghese.com) in Philadelphia where he works primarily with entrepreneurs and leaders.  He's also the founder of Selling The Couch (sellingthecouch.com), a podcast and blog that helps mental health practitioners build careers in and out of the therapy room. He has also started a podcasting course and a community for helpers and healers who podcast, called the Healthcasters (sellingthecouch.com/the-healthcasters). He has also created the STC Directory (sellingthecouch.com/directory), a resource to help private practitioners better connect with one another. In this episode we talk about: How the podcast Selling the Couch got started Additional options for therapists The multiple income stream mindset for therapists Melvin’s transition into being a father and how it impacted his businesses Creating alternative revenue streams when life happens Moving away from only being paid for “butt in seat time.” The guilt when generating income without being present Melvin’s immigration story and how it has impacted his business mindset Deciding on income streams (it is profitable, is it scalable) There is no such thing as “passive” income How to sustain creative energy on new products or services Thinking through the energy and time needed for the sustainability of the alternative income stream Just because you have an idea, doesn’t mean it is a good idea (long-term and sustainable) Building business around family (rather than fitting family in around business) Thinking through how to start and then scale products The upfront mental, emotional, and creative energy for launching alternative income streams Setting an end goal Focusing on one project at a time Solidifying, streamlining, and delegating before moving to the next project Time management, time blocking How Melvin does market research Testing products with Beta Testers Where Melvin gets data, i.e., how do therapists get clients Using and breaking down technology Learning from mistakes The difficulty in sustaining a lot of projects Looking to make an impact and leave a legacy, rather than making money   Relevant Resources: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links: Selling the Couch Podcast Katie’s appearance on Melvin’s podcast The Healthcasters Course The STC Directory Apple Insider (books on Steve Jobs) Book: The One Thing Book: 21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership The Call for Speakers for Therapy Reimagined 2019 The Modern Therapists Group on Facebook Therapy Reimagined 2019   Relevant Podcast Episodes Open to Opportunities   Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more about Curt at www.curtwidhalm.com. Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more about Katie at www.katievernoy.com. A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it. Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey. Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/ https://twitter.com/therapymovement https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/ Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/  

What techniques have you found that help you stay on task each day? Maybe you have some tried and true habits, or maybe you recognize the need to put in place a little more structure. Either way, there is inspiration waiting for you in today’s show! Solo episodes are always fun for me because I love getting to share with you what I’m learning. Today’s topic is about the habits I’ve incorporated to maximize my productivity on a week-to-week basis. For many of us, our self-worth is measured by how much we get done, and it’s taken work for me to get past that judgmental place. I’ve found some things that work well for me; some are based on experience, learning, and tweaking, and some are based on research. I hope my tips will inspire you to evaluate your productivity and see what might work better for you. You can read the full show notes at: Session182

EPISODE 005 TITLE 005 I gave myself permission to be me, and not place undue expectations about who I should be, with Melvin Varghese, PhD GUEST Melvin Varghese, PhD EPISODE OVERVIEW Melvin talks about what it was like being born in India, and coming to the U.S. as a sensitive, minority male in a new culture.  Melvin talks about the collective consciousness in India compared to the individualistic values in the U.S. Before Melvin had the baby, he got up at 4:30 every morning; and he talks about his pre-baby morning routine, and what it looks like now. Melvin also talks about how he had to prepare for his first child, who was in the NICU after birth, and the values he wants to instill in his daughter.  Melvin candidly talks about his fears and what he has done to create multiple successful business ventures. Melvin’s business success is tightly yoked with his strong values for social justice. Melvin is creating a scholarship fund for kids who have been rescued from brothels from some of the proceeds from one of his businesses—Selling The Couch Directory BIO Dr. Melvin Varghese is a psychologist and successful entrepreneur, as well as the host of the podcast Selling the Couch, which was listed as one of the top 15 podcasts in iTunes in 2015.  It has grown by leaps and bounds since then! Melvin also has a podcasting course called The Healthcasters, and an online Directory for therapists called Selling the Couch Directory.  Melvin also has a private practice where he helps entrepreneurs overcome the mental roadblocks that prevent success. He uses a variety of research-based strategies including Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) and mindfulness. In 2007, Melvin spent 3 weeks in Bombay in Bombay, India working with an NGO helping to end human sex trafficking (Bombay has the largest concentrated red light district in the world.). He decided to use his abilities to better the world and not just create income. Melvin met his future wife on a humanitarian trip to New Orleans in 2010 helping rebuild houses hit by Hurricane Katrina. He never imagined a Cowboy’s fan and Eagle’s fan living in one house. Melvin loves playing basketball weekly, and he loves spending time with his wife and new daughter.   QUOTES My needs shouldn’t be so, that I don’t think of the needs around me The point of parenting is to have a daughter who is kind and caring and develops the capacity to think through decisions and makes decisions that aligns with who she wants to be Business has never been just about business; there has to be a social mission or social justice to it Business success doesn’t just end with the financial goal. What we’ve done has impacted someone’s life—maybe for a generation Life was about who you were surrounded by. How do we serve those around us? Parenthood is teaching me to appreciate the moments Be kind and gracious to yourself. Don’t feel the pressure to conform. You’re not going to fit in a perfect box; nor should you   LINKS Website— http://melvinvarghese.com/ Selling the Couch-- https://sellingthecouch.com/   Website--www.patriciayounglcsw.com Podcast--www.unapologeticallysensitive.com Facebook--https://www.facebook.com/Patricia-Young-LCSW-162005091044090/ Youtube--https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOE6fodj7RBdO3Iw0NrAllg/videos?view_as=subscriber e-mail--info@unapologeticallysensitive.com Show hashtag--#unapologeticallysensitive MUSIC—Gravel Dance by Andy Robinson www.andyrobinson.com  

Have you ever thought about starting your own online community? You’ve heard me talk often about the STC Facebook Community and the many questions and show topics that spring from that group. In fact, the idea for today’s show comes from emails I recently received about our online community. I hope this show gives you the information you need if this is something you’ve been thinking about doing! Today’s show is a solo episode, which I try to do once a month. I love teaching and sharing transparently about the mistakes I’ve made and what I’m learning. The STC Facebook community now numbers over 7,000 members, and with that unexpected growth come many issues in its day-to-day management. Our group began in March 2015, and our members are known as “Couchies.” It’s a gathering place for members to share and reflect, so let’s talk about Growing an Online Community. Join us! www.sellingthecouch.com/session150

Today’s episode is a bittersweet one since it’s the final one of 2017. I always take a break from the podcast from Thanksgiving through the end of December, to focus on self-care and give myself some rest. Usually, these final episodes are different in some way; as an example, listen to Episode 100 if you haven’t already. Today’s show, however, is a reflective one, as I share some of what I’ve learned about private practice building. Join me! You can read the full show notes at: www.sellingthecouch.com/session142

Rob and Roy discuss what technology is essential for mental health clincians in private practice. They are joined by guest Melvin Varghese, host of the popular Selling the Couch podcast Full episode notes can be found at: http://therapytechrobroy.com/episodes/episode-101-essential-tech-private-practice/

Diversifying your private practice means serving people in new ways. He shares his journey from being a brand new entrepreneur to building Selling the Couch, a huge community for therapists. Melvin also talks about his dreams for his own therapy practice where he serves 2 niches: entrepreneurs and basketball players. Listen as he dives into lots of ideas for increasing productivity, staying honest and ethical as a business person, and taking steps to diversify your own therapy practice.   Topics Discussed In This Episode:   Taking the terrifying step into private practice His goal of having a 100% online therapy practice Creating his course about how to podcast Why outsourcing early and often is a key to success in private practice. Becoming an entrepreneur and CEO of your own therapy practice How to stop seeing money as a zero sum game The difference between working ON your business and IN your business The importance of a morning routine Show notes at http://coachingwithannie.com/podcast/melvin-varghese

A lot of therapists are wondering: Should I start a podcast? Why is podcasting so important? How do I test my podcast idea? Where do I begin? Dr. Melvin Varghese is a licensed psychologist and the founder of SellingTheCouch.com. Melvin’s podcast has received more than 275,000 downloads in more than 100 countries around the world. Listen in to this week’s episode to learn all about how starting a podcast can help you grow your audience and open new doors in your life and business. Included in this show: Melvin's impressive morning routine The power of your voice How to test your podcast idea before starting How a podcast can help you grow your practice How to use your podcast as a medium to promote anything How to leverage Calls to Action (CTAs) in your podcast Some podcast gear essentials How to decide whether to use a podcast editor Links: sellingthecouch.com, Free Podcasting Workshop with Melvin: sellingthecouch.com/podcastingworkshop, Healthcasters Podcasting Course/community for health, wellness, and fitness podcaster: http://sellingthecouch.com/the-healthcasters/ Melvin's private practice site: melvinvarghese.com

What happens when you pair courage and humility? How can “coming from a heart of service” transform your business and your life? And how do you ride the continuum between honoring what the heart wants and needing to take care of all the practical things?   In our conversation with Melvin Varghese, the clinician behind the phenomenally successful Selling the Couch podcast, we dive deep into the internal struggles and insecurities that come up for any entrepreneur, especially  psychotherapists in private practice. We talk about the magic that happens when you stand at your growth edge and take a leap despite your fears.   Through his podcast and thriving Facebook community, many people know who Melvin is and they recognize his personal brand. It’s about authenticity and curiosity and compassion.  We’re honored that Melvin was willing to dive deep with us and share some stories he’s never told before including the story of  his family’s emigration and what really inspires him to do this work and take professional risks. More about our guest: Melvin Varghese, PhD is a licensed psychologist in private practice in Philadelphia, PA where he helps entrepreneurs and basketball players achieve peak mental performance. He’s also the founder of the top ranked Selling The Couch podcast, which helps aspiring and current private practitioners build successful practices, create multiple income streams, and build a business focused on family and self care. In 2015, he founded The Healthcasters, a community for health, wellness, and fitness podcasters. Learn more about Melvin’s classes, community, and consulting at sellingthecouch.com and find his private practice at http://melvinvarghese.com/   And please note that registration is open for the Practice of Being Seen Retreat for Therapist-Healers that is coming up August 13 - 16, 2017.   (Re)Vision: Explore Your Stories, Shape Your Future will be held at the Menla Mountain Retreat  New York’s gorgeous Catskill Mountains.  

We’ve been on this journey together for a few weeks now. I am discovering a lot about what drives people, and I love having the opportunity to share those stories with all of you. Today I want to share my story.   I thought I knew what I wanted to do when I was very young, but I spent a long time searching before I found fulfillment. Before I could find it, I had to take a risk and step into the unknown. My first private practice was a side gig in a dirt cheap shared office. I didn’t get a phone call for six weeks, but eventually I was working an extra 10 hours a week as my own boss. It was difficult, but I was really happy.   But I still wasn’t fulfilled. I wanted more. I needed to step further into the unknown. I left my day job and went into private practice full-time, and things started to get really interesting really fast. The romance, excitement, momentum, and motivation that come with making a big change quickly fade when you come face-to-face with the realities of the venture.   In 2015, I had some of the highest highs and lowest lows, and I learned a few lessons in the process: Things don’t move in a linear fashion. The mind sometimes thinks that’s the case, and wants it to be the case, but the unexpected always happens. Don’t internalize your experiences. When my business numbers went down, I made myself feel like I was doing something wrong. I labeled myself a failure. I wasn’t a failure and, with patience and determination, my business improved. Make yourself open to opportunity. I was trying to control everything and everything had to be perfect. I was so focused on everything being my way that I closed myself off to other opportunities. You will find abundance more easily if you stop resisting, and start accepting, your situation.   Life is a learning laboratory – open yourself up, take a risk, and have some fun.   -- My podcast episode with Melvin Varghese on Selling the Couch talking about my challenges in beginning my business:  http://sellingthecouch.com/session-82-surviving-tough-times-private-practice/   Interested in learning more about how I can help you through coaching?  Find out more at www.johnharrisoncounseling.com/individual-coaching/   Production & Development for True Calling Project by Podcast Masters

Listen as Melvin and Jessica discuss redefining private practice and how to design your ideal practice around the life you want.

Looking for some new podcasts to listen to? I'm on a bit of a holiday hiatus from new episodes of Therapy Chat podcast. In the meantime, I wanted to tell you about some other podcasts I love. Here are 6 podcasts I'm listening to and recommending frequently! I hope you will check them out and please comment with your favorite podcast! 1. Women In-Depth with Dr. Lourdes Viado, MFT - I love this podcast because my friend and colleague Lourdes Viado conducts interesting and (as the name implies) in-depth interviews on topics that people don't usually talk about. Lourdes is a depth psychologist who was mentored by Jungian analyst and author Dr. James Hollis. She is so knowledgeable about her work and I love listening to her soothing voice. The podcast is fantastic and I recommend it without reservation! Some of the episodes I frequently recommend to my clients include: Episode 10: Spiritual Abuse: What It Is & Why It Matters with Tamara Powell, LMHC Episode 23: Understanding Spiritual Abuse (Part 2) with Tamara Powell, LMHC Episode 14: Women and the Midlife Crisis with Diann Wingert, LCSW Episode 21: Healing the Mother Wound with Bethany Webster Women In-Depth covers subjects that people may consider off-limits or taboo, such as infidelity, sexual abuse, staying in an unhappy marriage, and much more. I hope you'll check it out! Let me know what you think!  I must add, Lourdes has been a guest on Therapy Chat too. I frequently tell people about her episode, which was about "The Shadow." To listen to that episode click here! I've also been a guest on her podcast. 2. Mom & Mind with Dr. Kat Ritchie - Dr. Kat is a clinical psychologist who specializes in maternal mental health. She is knowledgeable, skilled and experienced at helping people who are struggling with infertility, emotional health related to pregnancy - including pregnancy loss, and post-partum stress like depression, anxiety, OCD and Post-traumatic Stress Disorder. Her podcast is a fabulous resource offering information to pregnant and parenting moms, fathers and people who are trying to conceive as well as healthcare providers and psychotherapists. I have learned so much from Dr. Kat and her podcast and I recommend it frequently! Start out with these episodes:     Episode 1: My Postpartum Story: Anxiety and Depression Episode 3: Resources for PPD Healing and Learning Episode 7: The Good Mother Mom and Mind is a great resource. Stay tuned to my podcast to hear an upcoming interview with Dr. Kat. I can't wait to share her with my audience!    3. Galactic Vibrations with Keri Nola and Lloyd Burnett - if you've listened to my podcast you've heard Keri Nola there. She's been on twice, talking about intuition and the Shadow. I am a huge fan of both Keri and Lloyd, who are amazing energy healers and coaches. Their podcast is brand new (it came out less than a month ago) and it is a huge hit already. If you are into the "woo woo" stuff like I am, you'll enjoy hearing their energetic forecasts, oracle card readings, and so much more.  Get started by listening to these three episodes: Episode 1: Understanding & Healing the Energy of Denial Episode 2: Using the Energy of Fear to Unlock the Mystery of Ascension Episode 3: The Shadow of Force, the Truth of New Years Resolutions, and People Pleasing I've done coaching for business and personal growth with both Keri and Lloyd. They're great at what they do! And as I mentioned, Keri has been on my podcast. She talked about using intuition in therapy in Episode 11, back when my podcast was called The Baltimore Annapolis Psychotherapy Podcast. And she contributed to my series of episodes on the Shadow (after Lourdes's episode, mentioned above) in Episode 42. 4. Launching Your Daughter with Nicole Burgess, LMFT - My friend and colleague Nicole Burgess, LMFT, practices in Indianapolis, Indiana with a focus on teen girls and women. Nicole is super passionate about her work and it comes through when you listen to her podcast. She has been kind enough to have me on her podcast twice!  Once I talked about The Daring Way™ and the second time was about helping your daughter (or son) if they experience sexual violence. Nicole's podcast covers a wide variety of topics related to the issues of parenting girls. Here's a sampling of some of her episodes that I've enjoyed: Episode 34: How Art Therapy Can Be Effective With Teens Episode 33: How to Create Healthy Boundaries In Your Family Episode 31: Ways Parents & Teens Can Receive Support Around Suicide Prevention I hope you'll enjoy listening to Launching Your Daughter as much as I do. These last two podcasts are super amazing ones for therapists who are building private practices. Both of the podcasters are my buddies - they've both helped me in tons of different ways and if you're a therapist you probably already know of them. If not - prepare to have your mind blown! 5. Selling The Couch with Dr. Melvin Varghese - Melvin is an awesome psychologist in Philadelphia who wanted to start his own private practice so like any good student, he set out to learn from people who have already done it. Melvin has interviewed dozens upon dozens of therapists and other experts in practice-building to learn how they have managed to build successful private practices and other types of businesses. Melvin has interviewed experts on marketing, multiple income streams, running groups, building websites, creating Psychology Today profiles, writing books, mindset shifts, and so much more. He's had over 100 episodes so far and his podcast is listed in the top 100 business podcasts on iTunes, which is a pretty significant accomplishment! I'm super excited for Melvin as he's now building his private practice, following all that great advice he's received, and I know he will help many people! Here are a few of his most recent episodes. There are so many - if you're a therapist trying to build your private practice I recommend you listen to every episode - but here are a few to get you started: Episode 93: How Comparison Can Steal Your Joy Episode 92: My Morning Routine & Productivity Episode 85: Saying No As a Private Practice Owner Melvin was on my podcast talking about how therapists can use podcasting to grow their practices. He knows his stuff. He taught me pretty much everything I know about podcasting. Podcasting has enriched my life in so many ways and it's mainly Melvin who I have to thank for it. Here's Episode 49 of Therapy Chat with Melvin Varghese. 6. Blissful Practice Podcast with Dr. Agnes Wainman - this is another brand new podcast. Disclaimer - I was the first guest on this podcast. But I don't love it only because I've been on it. Agnes is a psychologist in Ontario, Canada who has learned the hard way how to create a private practice that feels blissful. She spent time at the other end of that spectrum, feeling burned out, and she wants to help therapists who are building private practices find their own bliss.  On her podcast, Agnes talks to therapists about their journeys to private practice. I love her perspective and I think you'll love her podcast. Check it out here: Episode 3: Why I Became A Therapist Episode 2: Networking Guru Allison Salmon Puryear Episode 1: Therapists Can Change the World: A Discussion with Laura Reagan, LCSW-C Agnes was one of my early guests on Therapy Chat (back when it wasn't called that). Check out our interview here! So now you have my list of 6 podcasts I'm loving right now. When you have downtime this holiday season, check them out! I am sure you'll find at least one that you really love.  Of course, you're always welcome to listen to Therapy Chat, there are 64 episodes counting the podcast version of this blog post, and I would love for you to listen, subscribe and leave a rating and review!  If you want to read more of what I write, follow me on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram and Pinterest. You can also visit iTunes to subscribe to Therapy Chat. There you'll hear me talking about what I talk about and interviewing other people about what I'm interested to discuss. Or you can listen to Therapy Chat on my website, or on iHeartRadio, Stitcher or Google Play. If you're in Maryland, and you want therapy to explore the vulnerable parts of yourself that are in need of healing, check out my website. Therapists can learn about my Trauma Therapist Community by clicking here. You can also call me at 443-510-1048 or e-mail me at laura@laurareaganlcswc.com. I look forward to connecting! In the meantime, take care and I hope you enjoy the holidays!  Warmly, Laura Reagan, LCSW-C

Welcome back! In Episode 61 Therapy Chat host Laura Reagan, LCSW-C asked 11 therapists to contribute their best tips for using self care to manage holiday stress. With Thanksgiving Day tomorrow in the US, hopefully you will find something useful here.   Thanks for listening to Therapy Chat. Please get in touch and let host Laura Reagan know what you thought of this episode!   Thanks to the eleven therapists who participated! See below for their names and links to their websites!     Elizabeth Cush, MA, LGPC Progressioncounseling.com Robert Cox, MA, PLPC, NCC http://www.liferecoveryconsulting.com Charlotte Hiler Easley LCSW ESMHL www.charlotteeasley.com Daniela Paolone LMFT westlakevillage-counseling.com Elizabeth Burke, LCSW www.empoweredtherapy.org Gina Della Penna, LMHC www.ginadellapenna.com Jackie Flynn EdS | LMHC | RPT www.counselinginbrevard.com Melvin Varghese, PhD melvinvarghese.com Ellis Edmunds, Licensed Psychologist www.drellisedmunds.com Rebecca Wong, LCSW www.connectfulness.com Michelle Lewis, LCSW www.slweightcounseling.com     Resources mentioned in this episode:   Here’s the link to find out about clinical supervision and consultation with Laura Reagan, LCSW-C and the Trauma Therapist Community: http://www.laurareaganlcswc.com/for-professionals/   Visit Therapy Chat website at Http://therapychatpodcast.com and send host Laura Reagan a voice message letting her know what you think of Therapy Chat! Did you like this episode? Did you dislike it? Let her know! Also, if you’d like to share a tip that helps you get through the holidays, record a message and your comment may be included in the December holiday episode!   Thank you for listening!

I’m your host John Harrison, professional psychotherapist and coach, and I’m getting the project started by talking to someone who has been a big inspiration to me. Melvin Varghese is a therapist and Founder of the podcast and blog Selling the Couch, which helps aspiring and current mental health private practitioners to become better business owners.   “If you want to get to a certain place, one of the best time and financial investments you can make is to invest in people that have already done it and have had success.”   Melvin and I talk about how he found himself in the mental health podcasting niche, the things that he learned about himself and his business by starting a podcast, and great tips for people looking to further their careers by starting a podcast. Melvin saw an opportunity to serve a larger population and develop alternative income streams by podcasting. It is a unique medium because podcast listeners are consuming episodes passively, while doing other things, and headphones allow podcast hosts to speak directly into the ears of their listeners.   “At the end of my life I didn’t want to have a bag of I Wish I Had Done This and Regrets. I wanted to have a life where, even if I failed at something, I could tell myself and I could tell my family that at least I took the step.”   Selling the Couch’s first episode launched with nine listeners during the first week. It currently has around 170,000. So many people stop when they feel overwhelmed or feel the process is taking too long, but Melvin believes the most successful people understand that the building stage is temporary and necessary. Overcoming obstacles in the season of building will help prepare you for growth.   “Everybody goes through the season of building.”   If you are interested in starting a podcast, Melvin has some great advice: Launching a podcast has a lot of potential because it is still a new medium, but it is not easy on a practical level or an emotional level. There’s a lot of free content all over the web. Melvin has The Complete Guide to Launching Your Podcast available for free on his website. Invest in people that have already started podcasting and have had success. Reach out to people who resonate with you or hire a coach. If you’re at a stage where you’re ready to scale your business, a podcast can help you extend your reach beyond your immediate geographic area. 71% of people are consuming podcasts on smartphones, and in 2016 there are 2.3 billion smartphones in the world. By 2020 it is projected there will be 6.1 billion smartphones.   Melvin has a very intentional morning routine that sets him up for success every day. He’s in bed by 9:00 and up by 4:45; spends his first hour drinking 32 ounces of warm lemon water, working out and meditating; then watches a TED Talk to get into the right mindset.   “If I’m going to consume media, I want to start my day by consuming media that is about people that are doing big things in the world because it puts me in the right mindset.”   Melvin is a huge inspiration and a key part of me launching this podcast, so I can’t thank him enough for being my first guest. His podcasting course is an extremely useful resource for aspiring podcasters, and you can find the Selling the Couch podcast on his website, iTunes or Google Play.     Resources: Learn more about Melvin: Selling the Couch | Facebook | Twitter Sign up for Melvin’s Podcasting Course Check out Melvin’s free Complete Guide to Launching Your Podcast Watch Simon Sinek’s TED Talk: How Great Leaders Inspire Action Blue Ocean Strategy by Renée Mauborgne and W. Chan Kim Learn more about me and my coaching at JohnHarrisonCounseling.com

Today’s guest is Dr. Melvin Varghese a psychologist in Philadelphia, PA and host of the popular podcast Selling the Couch. He is a colleague and my mentor in this podcasting journey. We discuss what perfectionism looks like from a male perspective, how it impacted Melvin growing up and how he manages it as an adult. One goal of this episode is to continue to raise awareness how perfectionism not only affects women, but men too and ways to challenge old thoughts/stories we tell ourselves. Now here is todays episode. In this episode you will learn: How Melvin recognized perfectionism beginning as teenager and ways it manifested How he manages those behaviors and thoughts now Continuing to challenge societal beliefs about what it means to be a man Embracing imperfection Men sometimes wear perfectionism as a badge of honor Society seems to have a double standard for men “When I hold this truth and embrace these imperfections is when others can see our humanity.” Give ourselves permission to feel both negative emotions and positive emotions Step into our growth edge Melvin shares how as a teenager perfectionism manifested in behaviors His family moved to U.S. when he was in second grade Wanted to do well academically for my parents and brother He identified his self-worth with his grades Began to manifest in some obsessive/compulsive behaviors, such as, how items on his desk were arranged Our minds can go to one extreme or other i.e. “I won’t live up to my potential” More pressure on teens today Can impact their views of self-worth Reminding them they are okay and failures are learning opportunities As an adult When he first created his business old perfectionism thoughts returned and he recognized fear of not being liked He combated perfectionism with: Setting time limits for activities Reminded himself-not about being perfect but about embracing imperfection Using “both”/“and” vs “either”/“or” Gaining self-awareness regarding old thoughts and beliefs “I can put information out there and may not resonate with everyone and that is ok plus I can continue to tweak/modify as I go.” Wants the world to see him as who he is Self-Care skills: Has consistent morning routine Does 30 minutes of exercise Listens to TED talk Has meditation routine Plans day with 1 to 3 tasks Breaks day into 30 minute chucks Gets 8 hours of sleep each night Recommendations: Sue Johnson-Hold Me Tight Brene Brown-The Gift of Imperfection Tal Ben-Shahar, Ph.D.-The Pursuit of Perfect: How to Stop Chasing Perfection and Start Living a Richer, Happier Life If you liked this episode I invite you to subscribe on iTunes to receive the weekly updates. This podcast is also available on Stitcher, Google Play, YouTube and now iHeartRadio. Website is www.LaunchingYourDaughter.com Melvin’s Information: Website: http://sellingthecouch.com/ Coming soon for entrepreneur: http://melvinvarghese.com/

  Welcome to Episode 49 of Therapy Chat! Today’s episode is #8 in the therapist practice building series. Host Laura Reagan, LCSW-C interviews the amazing Melvin Varghese, PhD, who is a psychologist and host of Selling the Couch podcast. Melvin, whose podcast is one of the top 100 business podcasts according to the iTunes rankings, discusses how podcasting can help therapists grown their practices and help them scale their businesses away from simply trading time for money. Melvin shares statistics about how podcasting is growing, and gives concrete examples of the skills most therapists already have that make us naturals at podcasting. He describes specific ways that podcasting can be used to grow a therapist’s business. He shares some of his free resources and invites listeners to check out his Healthcasters course for health, wellness and fitness podcasters, whether their podcasts have already begun or they are just in the ideas phase. He shares the changes podcasting has made to his business and his income. Resources Melvin mentioned in this episode: Jackie Flynn’s Parenting In the Rain podcast: http://jackieflynnconsulting.com/home/parenting-in-the-rain/ Robert Cox’s Mindful Recovery podcast: http://liferecoveryconsulting.com/podcast/ Check out Melvin’s podcast, Selling the Couch: http://sellingthecouch.com/podcast/ Melvin’s free podcasting tutorial: http://sellingthecouch.com/podcastingtutorial - check out the discount on Healthcasters found in this tutorial! Get the info on Melvin’s podcasting course/community, Healthcasters: http://sellingthecouch.com/the-healthcasters/ Canva: http://canva.com As always, you can find Therapy Chat at http://therapychatpodcast.com Please remember to visit iTunes to leave a rating and review, download episodes and subscribe to receive all the latest episodes as soon as they are released!

While most guests of the show are experts or practitioners of online counseling, sometimes I am able to interview someone in the field that may not exactly be an expert in online counseling – but who is a “must know” person in the field of counseling. Melvin Varghese is one of those people. He has a passion for helping therapists grow and improve in what we do. He is a learner – who started out with questions about private practice and decided to go talk to experts in the field – and then record what he was learning. So we get to learn with him! And Selling the Couch was born! It is hugely successful and now there is a facebook community with almost 2000 members – all working to help one another. He is a leading voice in our field and has really helped thousands of counselors be better people and practitioners.   http://www.sellingthecouch.com https://www.facebook.com/groups/1529269850672775/

In this episode of Selling the Couch, Melvin Varghese share 5 tips for building great mastermind groups.  Melvin credits his mastermind with much of his business success and shares 5 ways to form a mastermind that will take your business to the next level.  

Hanging out with people I enjoy is one of my favorite things in the world. If you haven't noticed, Kelly Higdon and I have a LOT of fun when we get together and chat. We got the opportunity to sit down for a chat with Melvin Varghese, Ph.D., on his podcast for therapists. We had so much fun, and we really hope you find some inspiration and actionable tips when listening.

Hanging out with people I enjoy is one of my favorite things in the world. If you haven't noticed, Kelly Higdon and I have a LOT of fun when we get together and chat. We got the opportunity to sit down for a chat with Melvin Varghese, Ph.D. on his podcast for therapists. We had so much fun, and we really hope you find some inspiration and actionable tips when listening. 

Selling the Couch Host, Melvin Varghese reveals his best kept secret for building his email list, and getting a high open rate for each campaign.

Selling the Couch is the podcast that helps mental health providers build and grow their counseling private practices.  Many of us go into private practice but are taught very little about owning a small business. We quickly get overwhelmed and some of us burn out.  To help, I'm interviewing successful clinicians about the "business side" of private practice (e.g., how they get referrals, their best advice for new practitioners, etc.) as well as business, marketing, and social media experts to help us become better business owners.  In this episode,  you'll learn how this podcast can help you especially if you're a new to a therapy private practice or dream of owning a private practice one day, some of the guests that are coming on the show, where the Idea for the Selling the Couch podcast came from, the format of the podcast and where you can can listen and download Show Notes, a Resource Page, and Tax Write-off Checklist I put together for mental health private practitioners, and more about the man, the mystery that is Melvin Varghese.