Podcasts about fathom analytics

Jack Ellis is the co-founder of Fathom Analytics, a simple, privacy focused analytics tool launched in 2019. I last spoke to Jack on the podcast in 2021, where he talked about the inception and growth of Fathom, taking on a massive incumbent and why Jack loves working with a co-founder. In December 2024, Jack acquired his co-founder's share in the business, making him the sole owner (i think). Today, we're going to talk about why he made this unique move and what's next for Fathom.Timestamps00:00 Intro01:20 Jack finds out about EmailOctopus02:34 Why Jack acquired Fathom05:03 How can Jack afford this?05:28 Why did they not get an external buyer?07:17 Back to being a solo founder08:19 Innovating the the crowded analytics space11:09 Fathom's marketing and growth in 202512:34 How is Jack having fun?13:14 RecommendationsRecommendationsBook - Dopamine NationPodcast - Huberman LabIndie Hacker - Ruben GamezMy linksTwitterIndie Bites TwitterIndie Bites YouTubeJoin the membershipPersonal Website2 Hour Podcast CoursePodPanda (hire me to edit your podcast)This Indie Life PodcastSponsor - EmailOctopus

Sometimes, less is more. Here's how I pruned my feature backlog from 120 to 15 items.I'll share my decision-making framework; every single rule comes with examples. Time to cut down on the mental load that is having too many "ideas" in your backlog.The blog post: https://thebootstrappedfounder.com/deleting-your-backlog-a-founders-guide-to-feature-pruning/The podcast episode: https://tbf.fm/episodes/373-delete-your-backlogCheck out Podscan to get alerts when you're mentioned on podcasts: https://podscan.fmSend me a voicemail on Podline: https://podline.fm/arvidYou'll find my weekly article on my blog: https://thebootstrappedfounder.comPodcast: https://thebootstrappedfounder.com/podcastNewsletter: https://thebootstrappedfounder.com/newsletterMy book Zero to Sold: https://zerotosold.com/My book The Embedded Entrepreneur: https://embeddedentrepreneur.com/My course Find Your Following: https://findyourfollowing.comHere are a few tools I use. Using my affiliate links will support my work at no additional cost to you.- Notion (which I use to organize, write, coordinate, and archive my podcast + newsletter): https://affiliate.notion.so/465mv1536drx- Riverside.fm (that's what I recorded this episode with): https://riverside.fm/?via=arvid- TweetHunter (for speedy scheduling and writing Tweets): http://tweethunter.io/?via=arvid- HypeFury (for massive Twitter analytics and scheduling): https://hypefury.com/?via=arvid60- AudioPen (for taking voice notes and getting amazing summaries): https://audiopen.ai/?aff=PXErZ- Descript (for word-based video editing, subtitles, and clips): https://www.descript.com/?lmref=3cf39Q- ConvertKit (for email lists, newsletters, even finding sponsors): https://convertkit.com?lmref=bN9CZw

Jack and Paul discuss what's new at Fathom Analytics recently, like the ongoing refactor project. This paves the way for great new features, including entry and exit pages. They also give their opinions on the recent drama in the WordPress (WP) community between Automattic and WPEngine.

Things are humming along at Fathom Analytics - we've released several new features, have more in the pipeline coming soon, and the redoing of our internal processes is going quite well. Jack and Paul also discuss the Stripe acquisition of LemonSqueezy, the CEO of Paddle stepping down and finally, why Fathom does't do discounts or sales (ever).

Podcast sponsorship is often seen as the “golden goose” of podcasting. We started working with sponsors on STC a few years ago, and they have generated over $95k to this point. However, I've learned that relying solely on sponsorships is not the wisest stance because your success rides the ebbs and flows of another company's marketing budget. I'm very grateful for the sponsors who have worked with us, but I don't want to depend on them for the main source of income for STC. Today, I'm sharing three ways you can make money from your podcast from Day One, without having to depend on securing sponsors down the road. Join me for a closer look!You'll Learn:The increasing responsibility I feel to be a good steward in today's podcasting environmentThree ways to make money from your podcast from Day One:One-on-one work–I share how to use analytics to pinpoint your niche and impact to specialize your focus and offerings. (I use and recommend Fathom Analytics.)Scalable work–This includes things you can continue to do for the next 8-10 years, like paid speaking engagements, coaching groups, therapy groups, writing books, and establishing a “private podcast” feed. Online courses–The time and energy investment comes on the front end, but they become an asset into which you can invite others.It's best to view podcast sponsorship as “the cherry on the top” that may come to you, but not as the financial foundation to depend on from month to month.Our free podcasting workshop can help you launch your podcast! Resources:Want to launch your podcast?Check out our free podcasting workshop for therapists (and therapists turned coaches and consultants)https://sellingthecouch.com/podcastingworshopWant to launch your online course?Please check out our free 7-Day Course Creator Starter Kit For Therapists: https://sellingthecouch.com/coursekit

Today Jack and Paul discuss what's not been working with getting the next version of Fathom Analytics launched. They come up with a plan, in real-time, to overcome this hurdle and get back to a regular cadence of releases (i.e. not a big project). They also come up with a set of rules to govern internal projects.

Podcast sponsorship is often seen as the “golden goose” of podcasting. We started working with sponsors on STC a few years ago, and they have generated over $95k to this point. However, I've learned that relying solely on sponsorships is not the wisest stance because your success rides the ebbs and flows of another company's marketing budget. I'm very grateful for the sponsors who have worked with us, but I don't want to depend on them for the main source of income for STC. Today, I'm sharing three ways you can make money from your podcast from Day One, without having to depend on securing sponsors down the road. Join me for a closer look!You'll Learn:The increasing responsibility I feel to be a good steward in today's podcasting environmentThree ways to make money from your podcast from Day One:One-on-one work–I share how to use analytics to pinpoint your niche and impact to specialize your focus and offerings. (I use and recommend Fathom Analytics.)Scalable work–This includes things you can continue to do for the next 8-10 years, like paid speaking engagements, coaching groups, therapy groups, writing books, and establishing a “private podcast” feed. Online courses–The time and energy investment comes on the front end, but they become an asset into which you can invite others.It's best to view podcast sponsorship as “the cherry on the top” that may come to you, but not as the financial foundation to depend on from month to month.Our free podcasting workshop can help you launch your podcast! Resources:Want to launch your podcast?Check out our free podcasting workshop for therapists (and therapists turned coaches and consultants)https://sellingthecouch.com/podcastingworshopWant to launch your online course?Please check out our free 7-Day Course Creator Starter Kit For Therapists: https://sellingthecouch.com/coursekitMentioned in this episode:

This week's episode, I chat with Chris Zeunstrom, the Founder and CEO of Ruca and Yorba. Ruca is a global design cooperative and founder support network, while Yorba is a reverse CRM that aims to reduce your digital footprint and keep your personal information safe. Through his businesses, Chris focuses on solving common problems and creating innovative products. In our conversation, we talk about building a privacy-first company, the digital minimalist movement, and the future of decentralized identity and storage.Chris shares his journey as a privacy-focused entrepreneur and his mission to prioritize privacy and decentralization in managing personal data. He also explains the digital minimalist movement and why its teachings reach beyond the industry. Chris touches on Yorba's collaboration with Consumer Reports to implement Permission Slip and creating a Data Rights Protocol ecosystem that automates data deletion for consumers. Chris also emphasizes the benefits of decentralized identity and storage solutions in improving personal privacy and security. Finally, he gives you a sneak peek at what's next in store for Yorba.Topics Covered: How Yorba was designed as a privacy-1st consumer CRM platform; the problems that Yorba solves; and key product functionality & privacy featuresWhy Chris decided to bring a consumer product to market for privacy rather than a B2B productWhy Chris incorporated Yorba as a 'Public Benefit Corporation' (PBC) and sought B Corp statusExploring 'Digital Minimalism' How Yorba's is working with Consumer Reports to advance the CR Data Rights Protocol, leveraging 'Permission Slip' - an authorized agent for consumers to submit data deletion requestsThe architectural design decisions behind Yorba's personal CRM system The benefits to using Matomo Analytics or Fathom Analytics for greater privacy vs. using Google Analytics The privacy benefits to deploying 'Decentralized Identity' & 'Decentralized Storage' architecturesChris' vision for the next stage of the Internet; and, the future of YorbaGuest Info: Follow/Connect with Chris on LinkedInCheck out Yorba's website Resources Mentioned: Read: TechCrunch's review of YorbaRead: 'Digital Minimalism - Choosing a Focused Life In a Noisy World' by Cal NewportSubscribe to the Bullet Journal (AKA Bujo) on Digital Minimalism by Ryder CarrollLearn  about Consumer Reports' Permission Slip Protocol Check out Matomo Analytics  and Fathom  for privacy-first analytics platforms Privado.ai Privacy assurance at the speed of product development. Get instant visibility w/ privacy code scans.TRU Staffing Partners Top privacy talent - when you need it, where you need it.Shifting Privacy Left Media Where privacy engineers gather, share, & learnDisclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.Copyright © 2022 - 2024 Principled LLC. All rights reserved.

On this week's episode of Screaming in the Cloud, Corey Quinn is joined by Jack Ellis. He is the technical co-founder of Fathom Analytics, a privacy-first alternative to Google Analytics. Corey and Jack talk in-depth about a wide variety of AWS services, which ones have a habit of subtly hiking the monthly bill, and why Jack has moved towards working with consultants instead of hiring a costly DevOps team. This episode is truly a deep dive into everything AWS and billing-related led by one of the best in the industry. Tune in.Show Highlights(00:00) - Introduction and Background(00:31) - The Birth of Fathom Analytics(03:35) - The Surprising Cost Drivers: Lambda and CloudWatch(05:27) - The New Infrastructure Plan: CloudFront and WAF Logs(08:10) - The Unexpected Costs of CloudWatch and NAT Gateways(10:37) - The Importance of Efficient Data Movement(12:54) - The Hidden Costs of S3 Versioning(14:33) - The Benefits of AWS Compute Optimizer(17:38) - The Implications of AWS's New IPv4 Address Charges(18:57) - Considering On-Premise Data Centers(21:05) - The Economics of Cloud vs On-Premise(24:05) - The Role of Consultants in Cloud Management(31:05) - The Future of Cloud Management(33:20) - Closing Thoughts and Contact InformationAbout Jack EllisTechnical co-founder of Fathom Analytics, the simple, privacy-first alternative to Google Analytics.Links:Twitter: @JackEllisWebsite: https://usefathom.com/Blog Post: An alterNAT Future: We Now Have a NAT Gateway ReplacementSponsor: Oso - osohq.com

Last week, we released several new features in our software and a fresh coat of paint in the UI. Jack and Paul discuss these features and how they relate to what's coming up next, and they chat through the pricing increase that happened simultaneously. Lastly, they talk about why analytics software is more expensive than most hosting.

Jack and Paul get into what's going on inside Fathom Analytics right now, and then answer some questions about what it was like starting the company, what they'd do differently (or the same), and if there's anything they'd change if they had to start Fathom again.Special thanks to Ben and Adam from the "Hackers Incorporated" podcast for the most of the questions answered on this episode.

Síguenos en: ¿Qué tal la semana? Semana esther Problemas versión Plesk que bloquea actualizaciones de plugins y conexiones externas (error "Update failed: Download failed. cURL error 77:" ) Maquetación en editor bloques WP de landing HTML/CSS a medida Integración solución Correos en e-commerce a medida Semana Nahuai Follow-up, parece que los problemas de carga de los estilos de backend se solucionaron pasando una de las instalaciones de WordPress a PHP 7.4. Error 403 al intentar instalar un plugin en otro proveedor de hosting, tuve que desactivar mod_security desde cPanel. Jugando con las opciones de añadir contenidos entre bloques. Trasteando con los block hooks que llegaran en WordPress 6.4. Probando los plugins y temas de OsomPress con la versión de WordPress 6.4. Reunión del grupo de sostenibilidad de W3C. Trabajando en el tercer borrador y creando material que sea más fácil de entender y accionar. También se ha publicado la API. Si interesa el tema puedo preparar un episodio. Última reunión de Green Web Foundation. Reunión semanal del equipo de sostenibilidad de WordPress, nueva votación en marcha se comentó la opción de crear canales locales. Hoy Meetup de Terrassa donde Marc Soro hablará de diseño. Contenido Nahuai 2 nuevos tutoriales en Código Genesis de los cuales destaca: Publicado el tercer episodio de Sustain WP en que hablamos del pilar social de la sostenibilidad. Novedades Ya está disponible el guía de campo para desarrolladores de WordPress 6.4: https://make.wordpress.org/core/2023/10/23/wordpress-6-4-field-guide/ Fathom Analytics permite crear eventos: https://usefathom.com/docs/features/events y también eliminará su servicio de monitorización de webs. Tip de la semana Crear una webapp con MacOS Sonoma (opción de añadir al dock desde Safari) Menciones Jordi nos deja la siguiente pregunta: ¿Hay algún plugin que SIEMPRE instaléis junto a Wordpress? Ese plugin que no te lo piensas. Da igual si es un e-commerce, blog, web corporativa, etc. El MUST de los plugins, el imprescindible. (reto: intentad responder sin usar la palabra "depende". ¡juah!) Gracias por acompañarme en mis caminatas matutinas. Saludos Jordi (el panadero wordpresero) Catalina nos felicita por el episodio sobre la beca de Green Web Foundation.

Síguenos en: ¿Qué tal la semana? Semana esther Problemas versión Plesk que bloquea actualizaciones de plugins y conexiones externas (error "Update failed: Download failed. cURL error 77:" ) Maquetación en editor bloques WP de landing HTML/CSS a medida Integración solución Correos en e-commerce a medida Semana Nahuai Follow-up, parece que los problemas de carga de los estilos de backend se solucionaron pasando una de las instalaciones de WordPress a PHP 7.4. Error 403 al intentar instalar un plugin en otro proveedor de hosting, tuve que desactivar mod_security desde cPanel. Jugando con las opciones de añadir contenidos entre bloques. Trasteando con los block hooks que llegaran en WordPress 6.4. Probando los plugins y temas de OsomPress con la versión de WordPress 6.4. Reunión del grupo de sostenibilidad de W3C. Trabajando en el tercer borrador y creando material que sea más fácil de entender y accionar. También se ha publicado la API. Si interesa el tema puedo preparar un episodio. Última reunión de Green Web Foundation. Reunión semanal del equipo de sostenibilidad de WordPress, nueva votación en marcha se comentó la opción de crear canales locales. Hoy Meetup de Terrassa donde Marc Soro hablará de diseño. Contenido Nahuai 2 nuevos tutoriales en Código Genesis de los cuales destaca: Publicado el tercer episodio de Sustain WP en que hablamos del pilar social de la sostenibilidad. Novedades Ya está disponible el guía de campo para desarrolladores de WordPress 6.4: https://make.wordpress.org/core/2023/10/23/wordpress-6-4-field-guide/ Fathom Analytics permite crear eventos: https://usefathom.com/docs/features/events y también eliminará su servicio de monitorización de webs. Tip de la semana Crear una webapp con MacOS Sonoma (opción de añadir al dock desde Safari) Menciones Jordi nos deja la siguiente pregunta: ¿Hay algún plugin que SIEMPRE instaléis junto a Wordpress? Ese plugin que no te lo piensas. Da igual si es un e-commerce, blog, web corporativa, etc. El MUST de los plugins, el imprescindible. (reto: intentad responder sin usar la palabra "depende". ¡juah!) Gracias por acompañarme en mis caminatas matutinas. Saludos Jordi (el panadero wordpresero) Catalina nos felicita por el episodio sobre la beca de Green Web Foundation.

Can bootstrapped founders take time off for vacation? Is that even legal? And under what circumstances is that possible? Jack and Paul dive into vacations for indie founders, as well as a short update on what's going on with Fathom Analytics on this episode of Above Board.

We've created 200+ email newsletters, 175 podcast episodes, and 47 3-hour video coaching sessions, and NONE of those things cause us grief when collaborating. But the 15 scripted educational YouTube videos we've created together have ALWAYS been a problem for us. This week was no different

Jack and Paul get into a discussion about what happens when the company you started begins to do well, and you have to prioritize things that all seem equally important, and all seem like they need to get done at the same time. While they may not have any answers here, they do discuss what's worked (and not worked) as far as Fathom Analytics is concerned.

On this fascinating episode of Content Briefly, Ramli John, Product Growth Marketer and Director of Content at Appcues, joins Jimmy on the show.Ramli is a Toronto based product growth marketer who helps product-led businesses convert more of their free users into lifelong customers.  His book, Product-Led Onboarding: How to Turn Users into Lifelong Customers is a best seller, and covers just that. Today, Jimmy and Ramli look at the various elements of product based growth marketing, and comprehensively cover Ramli's strategy to effectively run a mature content program. They look at the power and future of generative AI in the space, time spent invested in content creation, and Ramli also shares some of his favorite tools he uses day to day.His show & newsletter, Marketing Powerups: https://marketingpowerups.com/ Check out Ramli's website: https://ramlijohn.com/Connect with Ramli on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ramlijohn/This episode is sponsored by Fathom Analytics. Fathom is a Google Analytics alternative that doesn't compromise visitor privacy for data. They make website analytics easy to use and respectful of privacy laws (like GDPR and more). To learn more, visit usefathom.com

Jack and Paul discuss changes to how Fathom Analytics develops features, moving from long-lived branches to "continuous development." Why did we start doing this? What are the benefits? And most importantly, what could go wrong?

On this episode, Gia Laudi, CEO and Founder of Forget the Funnel joins Jimmy to explore customer leads, retention and metrics.Based in Quebec, Canada, Gia as a Product Marketing & Growth Advisor, Fractional Leader, Author & Co-creator of the Customer-Led Growth Framework. Through her founding of Forget the Funnel, they help SaaS marketing & growth leaders get out of the weeds, build airtight customer-led strategies, & build revenue-generating outcomes.Today, Jimmy and Gia go down the rabbit hole of how marketing teams can know for sure if they're marketing to the right customer - and if not, what they can do to change that. From homepages to directed content - the two explore how marketing teams can utilize the metrics from other areas of the company to fine tune their approach.Connect with Gia on LinkedIn here and learn more about Forget the Funnel by heading to their website.This episode is sponsored by Fathom Analytics. Fathom is a Google Analytics alternative that doesn't compromise visitor privacy for data. They make website analytics easy to use and respectful of privacy laws (like GDPR and more). To learn more, visit usefathom.com

Today, I'm talking to Jack Ellis, the co-founder of Fathom Analytics, a privacy-conscious web analytics business that I personally use for all my web properties. The company that Jack co-founded with Paul Jarvis competes directly with Google on their linchpin advertising product. That's a pretty high order. We chat about Jack's role in a growing successful software business and just how much he hesitates to go from coder to manager. We dive into choosing reliable dependencies to power an always-on SaaS business and how to deal with migrating customers from Google to Fathom.Here's a deep dive into a successful technical SaaS business. Here's Jack Ellis.Jack on Twitter: https://twitter.com/JackEllisMy new podcast project: Arvid & Tyler Catch Up / https://catchup.fmThe blog post: https://thebootstrappedfounder.com/jack-ellis-taking-on-google-as-a-bootstrapper/The podcast episode: https://share.transistor.fm/s/cda46335The video: https://youtu.be/oGjrUs0JB8wYou'll find my weekly article on my blog: https://thebootstrappedfounder.comPodcast: https://thebootstrappedfounder.com/podcastNewsletter: https://thebootstrappedfounder.com/newsletterMy book Zero to Sold: https://zerotosold.com/My book The Embedded Entrepreneur: https://embeddedentrepreneur.com/My course Find Your Following: https://findyourfollowing.comThis interview is sponsored by Acquire.com

Kunden nicht nachjagen, sondern sie auf dich aufmerksam machen. Genau darum geht es meiner Meinung nach, wenn man als Webdesigner auf der Suche nach neuen Kunden ist. Du musst versuchen auf ihr Radar zu kommen. Und um dir mal anhand eines realen Beispiels zu zeigen, wie das funktioniert, habe ich einfach genau das mit einem Projekt gemacht. Ich habe einem Kunden einen Mehrwert geliefert, eine tolle Referenz erstellt, das Unternehmen auf mich aufmerksam gemacht und darüber hinaus viel Aufmerksamkeit generiert. Wie dieser Prozess ablief und was es mir gezeigt hat, erzähle ich dir in diesem Video. Fathom Analytics erhalte 10$ Rabatt: https://www.jonasarleth.com/fathom * *Affiliate Link. Für dich entstehen keine Mehrkosten. --------------------------------------------- Weitere Beiträge zu diesem Thema: Ein wertvoller Weg, um an neue Kunden zu kommen: https://www.jonasarleth.com/blog/ein-wertvoller-weg-um-an-neue-kunden-zu-kommen In 3 Schritten neue Webdesign Aufträge bekommen (2022): https://www.jonasarleth.com/blog/in-3-schritten-neue-webdesign-auftrage-bekommen-ab-2022 Anleitung: Webdesign Kunden durch eigene Projekte bekommen – Strategie, Aufbau und Ideen: https://www.jonasarleth.com/blog/neue-kunden-durch-eigene-projekte-gewinnen Video: Diese EIGENEN Projekte haben mir neue Webdesign Kunden gebracht https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nfkj9XNZcU — Meine Onlinekurse:

Today we're joined by the formidable Jack Ellis, co-founder of Fathom Analytics, the simple, privacy focused alternative to Google Analytics. While Jack isn't running a successful software company, he spends time teaching people with his courses. He has two, which have made over $250k cumulativelyTimestamps:01:31 - Becoming the face of Fathom10:35 - Google vs Fathom13:22 - What are the alternatives to GA?15:56 - Product Growth Challenges18:27 - How does the Fathom team work?22:30 - Handling growth when questioning growth (at all costs)25:09 - Charging for a product that is usually free28:49 - Why focus on privacy34:24 - Who is Lemon Squeezy's customer?36:00 - Afilliates update37:18 - Making $250k with courses43:10 - Would they ever sell Fathom?45:42 - Jack Outside of workAs always thanks for being a listener of the Make Lemonade show. Hosted by @jrfarr & @jmckinven— brought to you by LemonSqueezy.com. If you're looking to sell digital products online, be sure to check out Lemon Squeezy or follow us on Twitter @lmsqueezy

Justin talks with Jack Ellis, co-founder of Fathom Analytics, about how two indie founders were able to get their indie analytics project installed (and scaled) on over 500k websites. Join our Discord, chat with us and fellow listeners! https://discord.gg/2EbBwdHHx8

Justin talks with Jack Ellis, co-founder of Fathom Analytics, about how two indie founders were able to get their indie analytics project installed (and scaled) on over 500k websites. Join our Discord, chat with us and fellow listeners! https://discord.gg/2EbBwdHHx8

Goodhart's law is powerful and important to remember for every creator: when a measure becomes a target, people tend to optimize their behavior to meet that target, which can lead to unintended consequences. You'll see examples of this law in action, including in education and social media, and learn the negative consequences of over-optimizing for follower count. But I won't let you go without prevention methods and tips for building a quality audience on social media.00:00:00 Intro00:01:51 Goodhart's Law00:03:28 The Pitfalls of Focusing on Follower Count00:07:32 The Negative Consequences of Over-Optimizing for Follower Count 00:09:18 Prevention Methods00:12:16 How to Build a Quality Audience on Social Media The blog post: https://thebootstrappedfounder.com/dont-fall-for-the-follower-count-trapThe podcast episode: https://share.transistor.fm/s/33be4469The video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1HtIy5JyHIYou'll find my weekly article on my blog: https://thebootstrappedfounder.comPodcast: https://thebootstrappedfounder.com/podcastNewsletter: https://thebootstrappedfounder.com/newsletterMy book Zero to Sold: https://zerotosold.com/My book The Embedded Entrepreneur: https://embeddedentrepreneur.com/My course Find your Following: https://findyourfollowing.comFind me on Twitter: https://twitter.com/arvidkahl/This episode is sponsored by Fathom Analytics.

Jack and Paul discuss changes at Fathom Analytics. What used to work in the past in terms of workflows and specs is no longer working and actively blocking them from moving forward as quickly as they'd like. So, they sat down, formulated a plan, and shared it on this episode.

How much growth is the right amount? How will you know when your business has grown enough? In this episode, Stephanie talks with Paul Jarvis, author and co-founder of Fathom Analytics, about escaping the growth-for-growth's-sake mentality. They discuss the expectation of hyper-growth for business owners, and if that actually serves your needs, both professionally and personally.  Listen now to learn why more growth isn't always better. If today's podcast resonates with you and you haven't read The Small Firm Roadmap yet, get the first chapter right now for free! Thanks to Posh Virtual Receptionists, Berkshire Receptionists, & Lawyerist Lab for sponsoring this episode.  Your Opinion Matters Help us make this podcast better by completing the 2022 Listener Survey.

How much growth is the right amount? How will you know when your business has grown enough? In this episode, Stephanie talks with Paul Jarvis, author and co-founder of Fathom Analytics, about escaping the growth-for-growth's-sake mentality. They discuss the expectation of hyper-growth for business owners, and if that actually serves your needs, both professionally and personally.  Listen now to learn why more growth isn't always better. If today's podcast resonates with you and you haven't read The Small Firm Roadmap yet, get the first chapter right now for free! Thanks to Posh Virtual Receptionists, Berkshire Receptionists, & Lawyerist Lab for sponsoring this episode.  Your Opinion Matters Help us make this podcast better by completing the 2022 Listener Survey.

What tools do you use for sales and support? Which tools work best for project management? How do you know who to hire first if you're a bootstrapped company? Brian and Jordan asked for your questions and Twitter delivered. Today, they are answering Twitter's questions about what tools they use, and who to hire, and when.   If you have any questions, comments, or topic ideas for Bootstrapped Web, leave us a message here. “It's interesting the way we think of tools and how we sell tools to other companies.” – Jordan Powered By the Tweet This PluginTweet This Here are today's conversation Points:  NoSnow TinyConfTools that we use: Techstack (Laravel, Angular, React, Ruby on Rails, PHP, Tailwind)Project Management (Github, Notion, MixPanel, Confluence, Jira)Marketing Changelog Sales, Marketing, and Support (Pipedrive, Asana, Hubspot, Salesforce, Intercom, Customer.io, HelpSpace, HelpScout)Metrics and Internal Tracking (Grafana, Profitwell, ChartMogul, MixPanel, Amplitude, Google Analytics, Fathom Analytics, Plausible Analytics)Communication (Slack) Hiring when you're bootstrapped, versus when you're fundedWho to hire firstWho they are hiring now

In this episode, Jack and Paul look back to the beginnings of Fathom Analytics (which started in 2018). There was no big break here or instant success. Instead, it was a series of small bets, iterations, and tiny risks. Thankfully enough of them paid off and moved us forward enough to go from a side project to full-time jobs, not only for us, the cofounders, but for our employees too.

It's no secret: Fathom Analytics is growing. So what are Jack and Paul deciding to do about growth regarding development, support, and the business in general? How do they decide how to make the best decisions for the growing business and its long-term sustainability? Tune into this week's episode to find out (hint: we're hiring 197 people tomorrow).

Free audiobook: https://geni.us/CompanyOfOne-FreeAudio (https://geni.us/CompanyOfOne-FreeAudio) Get the full audiobook summary, PDF, infographic and animated version on the StoryShots app: https://www.getstoryshots.com (https://www.getstoryshots.com) Life gets busy. Has https://geni.us/CompanyOfOne-FreeAudio (Company of One )by Paul Jarvis been on your reading list? Learn the key insights now. We're scratching the surface here. If you don't already have the book, order it https://geni.us/Company-Of-One (here) or get the audiobook https://geni.us/CompanyOfOne-FreeAudio (for free) to learn the juicy details. StoryShots Summary and Analysis of Company of One: Why Staying Small Is the Next Big Thing for Business by Paul JarvisIntroductionHave you ever wanted to start a business, but felt like it was a Herculean undertaking without a big financial backer? In his best-selling book, Company of One, Paul Jarvis challenges this notion and more. Company of One explains how you can achieve the success of a large enterprise without having to grow your business. The book argues that success is not necessarily defined by the volume or pace of growth. By remaining small, you can build your company around your lifestyle needs and preferences through ‘scalable systems'. Ultimately, this focus on developing scalable systems facilitates growth without the need for additional employees, and promotes long-term satisfaction.  About Paul Jarvis Paul Jarvis is a former Silicon Valley professional turned author. Company of One is his first book, but he also writes for some of the world's leading publications, including Inc.com, Fast Company, and Huffington Post. Jarvis also wrote a popular, newsletter, Sunday Dispatches, a newsletter he established.  Besides his work as an author, Jarvis hosts classes on how to be a successful freelancer, where he has advocated for the contrarian idea that businesses don't need growth to be profitable. Jarvis is also the founder of the website analytics company https://usefathom.com/about (Fathom Analytics). Fathom is a real-life example of a company of one - that doesn't need growth to be profitable. Jarvis and his co-founder, Jack Ellis, are the sole employees. They have fully bootstrapped the company through the reinvestment of customer profits. How did they do it? Join us to find out. StoryShot #1: Lack of Growth Defines a Company of OneJarvis uses the first third of Company of One to define what “company of one” means. A company of one isn't a startup business. Nor is it another word for a freelancer. What is the difference between a startup and a company of one? Startups have one primary goal: to grow. Companies of one, on the other hand, purposefully remain small. However, unlike a freelancer, companies of one don't work to earn. Freelancers make active income. The second they stop working, the money stops flowing in. Meanwhile, companies of one make both active and passive income. One person doesn't have to run a company of one. You could start up a company of one with your partner, your closest friends, or your most brilliant colleagues. The only feature that it must have is that it needs to be kept small. The Benefits of a Company of OneA company of one doesn't grow progressively larger or require constant work. But this isn't necessarily on principle. Instead, rejecting traditional growth mechanisms can get you the following benefits: Resilience Autonomy Speed Simplicity A company of one is small, which makes these micro-businesses extremely agile. As a result, they can often adapt rapidly to changing realities and have a consistent sense of purpose. Another benefit of this agility is less bureaucracy. For example, you don't have to run your decisions by a board of executives or shareholders. As a sole proprietor, you have complete control over the brand vision. That doesn't just mean you only get autonomy over business decisions. You also get to decide how much

Today Jack and Paul get very candid about what's going on with Fathom Analytics lately, specifically regarding distractions. At the beginning of a bootstrapped business, other things are distracting (like how you make the bulk of your revenue). But eventually, as a bootstrapped business grows, it becomes a distraction from the product in and of itself—because you've got to juggle support, taxes, running a growing company, hiring, and so much more. So you can't just remove distractions because the distraction (your company) is just as important as the product you're building.

존재하지 않는 빌딩의 작명 때문에 시작하게 된, 폭망보다 더 임팩트 있는 성공 시나리오에 대한 잡다한 생각. 00:00:00 --- 1: 오프닝 00:03:28 --- 2: 사람 이름과 언어 00:09:26 --- 3: 갑자기 영국 왕 얘기 00:13:37 --- 4: 자리 00:19:09 --- 5: 건물 작명 00:25:16 --- 6: 브랜드와 사람 00:27:41 --- 7: 작은 기업, 큰 기업 00:34:31 --- 8: IT 창립자 덕질 00:43:37 --- 9: 성공 대비 00:50:40 --- 10: 마무리 에피소드 관련 링크 00:02:35 --- 박사장빌딩 --- http://naver.me/IgTM1Gr0 00:10:12 --- King Richard the Lionheart --- http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2013/11/king-richard-lionheart-england-lived-mainly-france-barely-spoke-english/ 00:20:00 --- 기부 건물 이름에 대한 2006년 기사 --- https://m.yna.co.kr/amp/view/AKR20060210004800063 00:28:32 --- Fathom Analytics --- https://usefathom.com/ 00:29:42 --- Plausible Analytics --- https://plausible.io/ 00:32:27 --- Vellum --- https://vellum.pub/ 00:35:17 --- Web Monetization --- https://webmonetization.org/ 00:35:26 --- Stefan Thomas --- https://twitter.com/justmoon 제가 하는 모든 일은 여기에 정리되어 있습니다. https://hanaim.imaginariumkim.com/ 전체 에피소드 녹취록 https://aimdreaming.imaginariumkim.com/ep-23-작명옵션-자칫하기-이전부터-생각해볼-것/

I'm in a polyamorous relationship with 2 different privacy-compliant analytics software I'm currently using and in this episode, I'll tell you why they're both so great that I couldn't bring myself to pick between Fathom Analytics and Plausible Analytics. Preview Fathom and sign up here to get $10 off. (this is an affiliate link) Preview Plausible and sign up here. Get the article shared with me by Amanda Grossman from Frugal Confessions here. Read the transcript here. Follow me on Instagram and TikTok NOTE: I am not a privacy lawyer and if you need legal advice about the data you collect, you want to hire a legal expert to provide advice to your specific circumstances.

I'm in a polyamorous relationship with 2 different privacy-compliant analytics software I'm currently using and in this episode, I'll tell you why they're both so great that I couldn't bring myself to pick between Fathom Analytics and Plausible Analytics. Preview Fathom and sign up here to get $10 off. (this is an affiliate link) Preview Plausible and sign up here. Get the article shared with me by Amanda Grossman from Frugal Confessions here. Read the transcript here. Follow me on Instagram and TikTok NOTE: I am not a privacy lawyer and if you need legal advice about the data you collect, you want to hire a legal expert to provide advice to your specific circumstances.

Jack and Paul briefly chat about launching a few small features in Fathom Analytics: search filters, event currencies and a graph update. They also try to think through whether or not validating "Product Market Fit" is something you can plan for, just luck into, or if it's simply a trailing metric you can only learn after the fact.

How a higher than usual growth rate has been affecting Fathom Analytics.

In diesem Video stelle ich dir Fathom Analytics vor. Für mich ist das Tool die beliebteste Alternative zu Google Analytics. Fathom ist DSGVO konform, setzt keine Cookies und umgeht sogar Ad-Blocker, die deine Statistiken verfälschen. In diesem Beitrag gehen wir die Vor- und Nachteile von Google Analytics durch und stellen diese Fathom gegenüber.

Paul has once again quit the internet, but this time he's left Twitter (namely, this personal Twitter account). What does this mean for Fathom, if anything?NFTs were the final (minor) strawFathom's recent launch of FathomCatz was the final straw in my decision to leave Twitter behind. I was excited to launch this fun new project, thought through the environmental aspect of blockchain things, and set up a local animal shelter to donate most of the proceeds to.But then, the second I shared it, a troll surfaced to cut down my tweet. At first, I was mad, but then I realized: I don't feel like defending myself and my ideas to everyone, everywhere, all the time. I don't need to “be right” to others who don't matter. I don't need to argue with strangers. I don't need my attention and mental bandwidth to be taken up by social media. So while the NFT troll didn't matter and wasn't why I left, it was the final straw (of thousands) that led to the decision to remove my Twitter account permanently.Does this decision impact Fathom?Initially (i.e. years ago when Fathom Analytics started), a large chunk of new customers and awareness for Fathom came from my personal audience—via my mailing list and my writing.Currently, this is no longer the case. Fathom isn't just “Paul and Jack do software”; it's its own brand. Sure, “Paul and Jack” the people are part of it, but the order goes Fathom first as the brand, then us.So while removing my personal Twitter account could impact sales and growth with Fathom, it's undoubtedly very minor. And, we have no plans to get rid of our Fathom Twitter account.We've (especially myself) been very conscious about how we build the brand for Fathom: where the product is always first (or our cats are first?), and Jack and my personalities are a far second. Yes, who we are as cofounders of the company matters a great deal, but it's the most important thing. And thankfully, we're now at a place where my personal brand disappearing shouldn't have a noticeable impact.Scale scales negativityWhen you have a small audience, there's typically less negativity because there are just fewer people. But as an audience grows (as mine did), the number of trolls also increases.Tim Ferriss has written about this (and the negative aspects of fame), as his audience is as big as you can get on the internet. And with it can come a volume of responses that one person could never be able to have time or mental capacity to deal with.The Fathom NewsletterYes, at the start of the episode, I spoke about deleting my personal newsletter, but the reasons for deleting that don't apply to… the new Fathom content newsletter.The Fathom newsletter exists because we wanted a better way to distribute the articles and podcast episodes we're creating all the time and putting a great deal of time and energy into. So it's not a “personal, Paul Jarvis” newsletter; it's a roundup of what Fathom has been up to, what we've written about or what we've talked about on our Above Board podcast.

Jack Ellis is the co-founder of Fathom Analytics, started with Paul Jarvis in 2019. Jack handles the technical side of the business, but isn't afraid to get on the mic on their podcast, Above Board, or send out some spicy tweets. Jack also runs the Serverless Laravel course, which he launched back in 2020. After this conversation Jack has turned into a true friend, speaking with me for several hours after, a genuinely nice chap. You're going to want the same thing after listening to this pod. Jack talks with great wisdom on how to approach bootstrapping a SaaS company and taking on a huge incumbent.➡️ Here's my course on starting a podcast in 2 hours or less (use "bites" for $10 off)What we covered in this episode: What is Fathom Analytics Joining as a co-founder after the company was founded How Fathom started How did they know Fathom was going to work What growth tactics did Fathom use to grow? How did they convince people to pay for analytics? The trade-off of free software How do you compete in a market with a huge incumbent Starting a medium competitor, Pico Benefits of having a co-founder Quitting a job for Jack's first side-project Starting a course (Serverless Laravel) that made $150,000 Recommendations Book: 7 Habits of Highly Effective People Podcast: Huberman Lab Indie Hacker: N/A Follow Jack Spicy Tweets Personal Website Follow Me Twitter Indie Bites Twitter Personal Website Buy A Wallet Sponsor - Part Time Tech JobsThank you to my friend Charlie from Weekend Club for sponsoring this episode, with his new project Part Time Tech Jobs, which is a fantastic site for finding and posting, you guessed it, part time tech jobs If you're looking to transistion from a full-time role to indie hacking, finding a part time role might be just the thing for you to de-risk that transition. And on the other side, if you're looking to hire great entrepreneurial talent without breaking the bank, this is where you should post.So if you're looking for a part time tech job, head to parttimetechjobs.co or if you're looking for tech talent, use the code INDIEBITES for 80% off all featured posts.

Follow Rosie! https://twitter.com/rosiesherryCheck out Rosieland: https://rosie.land/Michele Hansen  0:01  This episode of Software Social is brought to you by Reform.As a business owner, you need forms all the time for lead capture, user feedback, SaaS onboarding, job applications, early access signups, and many other types of forms.Here's how Reform is different:- Your brand shines through, not Reform's- It's accessible out-of-the-box... And there are no silly design gimmicks, like frustrating customers by only showing one question at a timeJoin indie businesses like Fathom Analytics and SavvyCal and try out Reform.Software Social listeners get 1 month for free by going to reform.app/social and using the promo code "social" on checkout.Hey, welcome back to software social. I am so excited this week to have with us the woman the myth, the legend, Rosie Sherry. Hello. So excited to have you. So you were I founder of Ministry of Testing, lead community at Indie Hackers, which is probably how many people listening know you, currently leading community for Orbit. Also have your own thing going on Rosieland, which is a community about community. So excited to talk to you.Rosie Sherry  1:30  Thank you, thank you. It's good to be here.Michele Hansen  1:33  So I want I want to start out with something something I noticed when I think about your background is how you've kind of gone between being a founder yourself, and intentionally working for other people also having sort of other things going on. And, you know, on the show in the past, we've kind of talked a little bit about how sometimes there's this perception that there's this sort of like staircase of an entrepreneurs career where you start out working for other people, and then maybe you have an info product, and then maybe you do consulting, and then you do an info product, and then you have a SAS and then I don't know, and it's like this sort of like staircase. And there's this sort of like implied increase in virtue throughout all of that. And then if you're taking backwards steps, that's seen as like, literally like a step backwards. And it's like this ladder rather than being this kind of what I'm more see in people's actual careers, which is kind of moving between different things as their interests lead them and as their life leads them. I feel like I see that in your career. And I'm kind of curious how you think about these shifts you've made between working for yourself and working for other people? And like, like, kind of all of that.Rosie Sherry  2:45  Yeah, it's kind of like steps going up and down, right? Or going up and down or left, I guess, an elevator? Yeah, I mean, I have like, no idea what I'm doing. But I guess like, I kind of go with the flow. When I when I stepped back from Ministry of testing, I had been doing that for 10 years. And I thought, like, as I was stepping back, I thought I'd never work for someone else's, like my plan was to take some time off and just like, take it easy for it. And just, I don't know, see what I wanted to do. And I knew I kind of wanted to, like focus in on community, but I wasn't sure how. And then, like, the opportunity with indie hackers came up. And I was like, Oh, you know, this could be fun. This could be interesting. I think I could learn a lot from how courtland has built community there. It's similar to ministry testing, in some ways, but yet, it's, it's really different. So I kind of just jumped on that, like, you know, earlier, earlier than I had planned. I was I was a contractor there for the whole time. And I was there for two years as a contractor. And basically, we just kept renewing the contract, like every three to six months. So it wasn't like it was the plan, stay there. And apparently surprised that I stayed there for two years, I thought I wouldn't last I thought I wouldn't be able to kind of work for someone else after like doing my own thing for 10 years. That was interesting. There's a lot of benefit, especially, I think, perhaps more these days where everything just seems I just feel like there's so much opportunity out there. And there's a lot of things that I didn't like about running a business. I didn't necessarily want to manage people, I didn't want to do the accounts, I didn't want to worry about money or worry about, you know, the future of, of the business. So yeah, I mean, this, you know, loads of things about running a business that I think people try to glorify, they try to hide, they try to not talk about it. But you know, it can be stressful. And I think my realization after running the Ministry of testing, is actually I don't, I don't want to run a company and employ people. I don't want to be responsible for someone's wages at the point of life that I that I am in at the moment. might might change over time, but right now Yeah, I'd rather like I guess, do something more for me something more, you know, focusing on, like my interest in things that that I need. And yeah, and I guess like contracting, bringing home a paycheck, that's great. But you know, for me, it's been, you know, it was great, I saved up a bunch of money, I didn't actually spend any of the money that I made in the hackers. So that was like a nice, consistent income for me to like, you know, get our family more and more of a safety net. Now, my Uber and I never, ever considered working for a startup people have it. Yeah, it's, it's new. For me, it's different from me. But this negative, there's a lot of pros as well. So I try to kind of be mindful of all of that. And, you know, there's days, I just want to pack it all in and say, I can't be bothered, I should just go back to being independent. But there are other days where I'm just like, no, this is actually really good. I'm enjoying what I'm doing this, you know, there's a great team that I'm working with. And again, you know, I get paid well, I don't have to worry about money, I don't have to invoice people the money every month in my bank account. And I'm like, Oh, this is nice. This is, you know, this nice not just to show up and do the work.Michele Hansen  6:11  You mentioned how it was stressful, being responsible for people's paychecks. And I totally relate to that. I think it's one of the reasons why we haven't really, you know, formally hired here, right? Like, I have a VA, but you strike me as someone who you know, and this comes through so much in your work for indie hackers in your work on community who like deeply cares about other people, and supporting them and encouraging them and helping them reach their goals, and you know, and be that person they want to be. And I wonder if that almost made it harder to be running a company and responsible for people's income when you felt so responsible for those outcomes and really invested in them as people?Rosie Sherry  6:57  Yeah, I mean, it's actually interesting, because I still own in ministry, testing, or co owner, when you're founded, you kind of like, I guess, the foundation of everything that comes later, to a certain extent. So like, the fact that I worked when I wanted, the fact that I had five kids, the fact that I just like took time off when I needed to the fact that I defined, you know, decided my own hours, all of those things, ended up becoming how things were done administrator testing, and it's become more apparent, I guess, as the team, I think about eight or nine people at the moment, at first, you know, I was only one with kids. And, you know, I was very much family friendly person, I would support, you know, everything about me is like, we need to live our own lives as well. We need to have flexibility, you know, work shouldn't stop us having having a family and doing things that we want to do. And at first, it was like, just me it was kids. But then like, as the years have gone, I think last year, there were three new babies born within the company, and as a team with like nine people that's like, oh, wow, how are we gonna manage this as like, as a company, even though it's not my responsibility anymore. There's a CEO running it. But he very much took on the philosophy of like, well, this is how Rosie has always done it. So this is what everybody else gets to do as well. So we let the mothers choose what they want to do. We let them you know, take the time off that they need to take time off, and have a say, and there's no there's no judgment for any of it. And we listen, and we care and we try to make good decisions, even even if it costs us money, right. And like, as a small company, and you have three of your people off on maternity leave is a big kind of hit. But it's not something that feels wrong, it very much feels right and like allowing everybody just to choose the time that they have off and pay in the world. And you know, making sure that they get a fair deal when they're often on maternity leave is to me, you know, I couldn't do it any other way. Because it would feel hypocritical. And for me, it's just like, I can't have once that rule to me and like different set of rules for For everyone else, even if I never took maternity leave properly. I believe like, you know, everybody else should have had that right to do that. I guess.Michele Hansen  9:20  It sounds like a bit like Golden Rule management, like treating others as how you would want to be treated.Rosie Sherry  9:26  Yeah, I don't understand why companies can't do that. can't comprehend it. And it's probably why I haven't. It took me I guess it's probably why it took me a long time to actually end up working for other people. Because without listen to the pandemic, because just like nobody was truly flexible enough in their thinking about how people showed up for work. And I've been working from home all this time on my own rolls, and then the pandemic comes along and I'm just like, still working the same way that I was working before. This ain't nothing changed for me day to day, but for everyone else. Or, you know, like a huge majority of people, life change and companies rethought their processes and what was acceptable and what wasn't acceptable. And the fact that we can all work from home now I think is is great, but at the same time is unlike Well, why couldn't we do this before we could have. But companies, you know, I guess like it wasn't urgent enough to think of our needs until the pandemic came along.Michele Hansen  10:26  And, you know, you mentioned how your life didn't change all that much with the pandemic. Yeah, I want to detour for a second because I understand that so you have five children, and you unschool them and it would just be interesting for a moment just to talk about not only what does that look like but also you know, you mentioned your whole life didn't change much. And I'm kind of curious what does that home life look like between you and your husband with this sort of unschooling elements layering on top of also like your, your work life? Like how does all of that work together?Rosie Sherry  11:02  Yeah, it's tough. I think like unschooling, I think the toughest part about unschooling, I think is, or even homeschooling is about making that kind of adjustment to life, like trying to instead of like, you know, if if kids go to school, you know, you have the six, eight hour block of time to kind of get work done and you can plan things around that with unschooling is like, well, you kind of have to plan for your kids. And then you have to plan your work around your kids, and you have to juggle things. With me, it's with my husband, we like have equal share on like, the kids in the house. And I just think that's the hardest part is like most people, probably, I guess I feel I feel privileged to be able to do that at the moment. But like, I guess, like, the thing I do is like, we're having this chat for me, it's in the morning. And that's like, not my normal schedule. So the like, normally like I'm online from midday till eight, and I'm with my kids from when they wake up until midday. And then at midday, me my husband swapped over. And that's those are the, that's the deal we have right now, to make things work. And so, in the morning, I would normally take my kids to a class that they have or a group that they go to, and it works, I guess, to try and to split that time, it changes all the time as as my work changes, or as my husband's work changes, we find ways to adapt and I guess that's the magic of unschooling, I guess like unschooling is like, we're always, I guess, we're always looking for things that our kids want to do to keep them active. So every day, especially our younger ones, who are between the age of three and 10. You know, getting them out out the house once a day is like basically our goal. And that happens in different ways at the moment, except for school, beach school, art class, sports, or football. And then other days that we hire, or we pay a friend to take them out for the day. She's like a single mom, and appreciates extra bit bit of income. It's tough, it really is tough. And it's like we have to say no to things a lot of the time, but I think at the same time, I think like the pandemic has kind of worked in my favor as well. Now that everyone's online, I feel like what's the right word? I guess previous to the pandemic, I felt like I was only one needing to have the flexibility. But I think like these days, it's it's more more acceptable. I guess, everyone's more accommodating, like having kids in the background is okay. Pre pandemic, that was not okay. You know, stuff like that, you know, despite COVID I appreciate how the world has changed. We feel it feels weird. I don't know. What do you think it feels? It feels weird to? Yeah, to say that. But I think you know, actually, there's been positives from COVID.Michele Hansen  13:57  I think it's forced us to reevaluate things and maybe shifts that were happening very slowly, like you mentioned, you know, more work from home and maybe more flexibility shifts that were happening very, very slowly, or only in very specific corners of the economy were kind of thrust on everyone all at once, which was both traumatic and also sped up things that needed to happen to at the same time at great cost to everyone involved, Beto as you said, like, you know that it's acceptable to have children in the background or even a dog barking, like I remember two years ago, you know, before COVID, and I was having a call and my dog barked in the back because the mailman was there or whatever. Like, I always felt so embarrassed on the call. And, you know, I remember sometimes, you know, the people, you know, whoever I was having a, you know, customers having call with, or one of them being like, Oh yeah, you know, we have a dog friendly office too. And I was just like, Yeah, like, dog friendly office, you know, that whole thing of like being a really small company and not wanting? Yes, I'm actually like working from home like that being kind of like something to be sheepish about, you know, like that you were working from home because it was like, What? Like, can you not afford an office? Are you not legit enough to have an office? Like, do you not like it used to prompt so many questions, most of them not very, like, positively reflecting on the company. But then all of a sudden, you know, so many of us, you know, who were lucky enough to be working from home, everybody was working from home, everybody, you know, had kids in the background dogs in the background cats on their keyboard, like, you know, and we all just had to learn how to be a little bit more understanding with one another.Rosie Sherry  15:41  Well, human right, I think like, we, we've learnt to appreciate and see that we all live in different circumstances, and we should adapt to that, and we should make sure it's okay. You know, almost like, I guess, like, the whole diversity movement, I guess, in the past few years is, you know, crept up. And, you know, to me, this is also like, part of it is like, we're all human, we're all people, we have different circumstances, that the sooner we can make that, okay for everyone to just like, be who they are opt in, opt out things, be able to, you know, not have shame for, for whatever it might be, I think like, the better the quicker, we can just like, move on and like, kind of focus on our work and get and get things done.Michele Hansen  16:38  Using shame, just there kind of reminded me of what we sort of started this conversation with, which is, you know, in your career, you have sort of intentionally and consciously moved between contracting and, and being a founder and working for other people. And when people come to a situation where they realize that maybe consulting isn't working for them, or they're trying to get their own SAS off the ground, and it's not working, and the finances are tight, and they're thinking about, you know, going out and getting a job. Yeah, it seems like people often feel a lot of shame around that. And then that feels like failure to them. And I think what your story shows that, you know, it's not linear. And, and I'm just kind of curious what you would say to someone who is kind of maybe at that point, who is wondering, you know, just, you know, that thing, things aren't, things aren't working, or the finances aren't there. And they've they've got to go back and, you know, get a job, like, what would you say to them?Rosie Sherry  17:56  I definitely felt this, like in the indie in the indie world, like, being immersed in that world. And, you know, people want to make it they want to be full time, indie hackers. And it almost becomes, like, a thing of like, what if you're not a full time indie hacker, then, like, you know, you're not a success really are there's only one way. And, you know, I almost, you know, thought that, you know, I thought even just like working in India, because I thought I wouldn't last I thought, you know, people, you know, I wouldn't make an impact. I wouldn't enjoy working with courtland, or all that kind of stuff. And even even when I joined indie hackers, the opportunity came up as a result of courtland looking for some social media help. And I was just like, at that point, I was just looking for something else to do. And like when I reached out to him, he was like, Yeah, but you're overqualified for this. I was like, Yeah, I know. But I'm, you know, I'm still like, yeah, I could do it. And, you know, I, I personally felt like I could learn from indie hackers. And that role ended up being more like of a community manager community lead role that he that he offered me. But did I feel shame, like doing that a little bit, but at the same time, as I, it doesn't matter, you know, I need to, you know, I really wanted just to have an excuse to do something else. And so yeah, I work for CEO, founder to social media and community manager, which is a step back, right? You know, on paper, it's a step back. But actually what it did for me was was huge, is like, before I joined India, because no one in the indie world really knew who I was. There's a few people here in there. But what it did for me was was massive. So I say I think a lot of the time choices, I guess, perhaps is that it's not all about money. It's not all about job titles. And we can dismiss job titles is not important. That's, you know, I think sometimes they can be but I think I think, if we think about, or like, the way I think about it is like, well, I want to do stuff, I want to learn stuff, and I want to work on things I care about. And does it matter if it's starting your own thing? or working for someone else? I don't think it really does. I think, at least for me, it's like, you know, five, finding, finding the right people to work with is, is key. And yeah, I mean, there's a lot of jobs that I'm sure would be sucky. And I see I definitely see people struggle, working for companies and being like, part indie part, like, working for companies. So yeah, I don't think like anything is necessarily Perfect. Perfect solution. But I guess it's like more about like, finding your fit what's right for you? How do you get to do the work that you do? Enjoy? How are you growing personally? And, like all, but I think I'm growing a lot personally. And also in, in my, I guess, desire to kind of impact the community world, I think I'm doing that. And I get access to stuff that I wouldn't, if I was trying to do all, all of that kind of stuff on my own. So yeah, there's definitely like, the pros and cons. So yeah, but but it's easy to think because when I joined, obey, it was at the back of my mind is that oh, my God, what will people think? I've been indie for, for 15 years. You know, should I actually take this job? Is it is it in conflict with, with who I am? Those are all that was definitely in the back of my mind, I can't, I won't lie about that. Yeah, I was nervous about announcing that. I'm not sure what people would think. But I think, at the end of the day is like, I'm still sticking to, to who I am, I'm still sticking to my values, I'm still pushing for the things that are important to me in all of it. And if I don't get those, and it's going to become a problem. You know, say, I'm still being me, in every, every space that I show up. And, and that's what's important to me, is that, and if I can't get that, then that's where it becomes a problem. For me, I think, Patrick, my boss,Michele Hansen  22:52  I noticed that you just said how you had this conflict around identity. And I feel like that's running undercurrent of a lot of time when people are having this struggle, is identifying as a founder, and all of the things that come with it, identifying as an indie hacker, identifying as someone who, you know, runs their own things and whatnot, and shifting identity into something else into, into, you know, who am I if I am not somebody who runs their own company? What does that say about me? Just who am I as as a person, I think in a world where we wrap up so much of our identity and what we do for work. That's a, that's a massive and can be quite a, you know, debilitating sort of shift and psychological process to go through. And yet what I also heard you say several times throughout the, the conversation is a reason why you took the job with indie hackers, or the contract with indie hackers, is because you wanted to learn and, and I wonder if that transition is a little bit smoother. When you think of, you know, there's you have this identity as an indie hacker, as a founder, you also have an identity as someone who likes to do other things. And one of those, I think, for you that really comes through is somebody who's curious, and who likes to learn and letting another identity almost kind of supplant that, that founder, one that's sort of, you know, taking a backseat.Rosie Sherry  24:40  Yeah, it's interesting. It actually brings me back to like minister testing and like when I stepped back, it was like, Oh my god, like, Who am I? Who am I going to be now I've been this testing person, this person, leading the testing community for so long. I'm almost leaving behind. And much of that, obviously they I still keep in touch with people, but I'm not in that world anymore. Yeah, it was, it was hard, it's hard to shift away from that and to figure out how to how to kind of redefine your life and who you want to be. And how do you get people to, I guess, to see that to know that and, and yeah, it's, it's tough and I guess like, right now with the indie stuff like, you know, I do Rosi land stuff on the side. But even that, I feel like oh, you know, I see a lot of the indie stuff happening, I still keep an eye on indie hackers. But, you know, at the same time I miss in the hacking as well, I don't do nearly as much as I would love. And, you know, I struggle with that. So it's like, how much of these different people can I be? How do I? How do I separate that? Do I need to separate that? And I mean, I was I was employed over it was no full well, knowing that I had all this stuff on the side. And that that had to continue to exist when I joined over it. But yeah, I feel like I definitely feel less a part of the indie world. Because just because I don't have the time to spend in it. And that makes me feel sad. Definitely sad. And I want to do more, but I can't just because because of time. But yeah, I don't even know where I'm going with this. But this constant shift of identity moving on, almost like shedding skin. All right, is that I shed my skin from history testing. I'm shedding my skin a bit from indie hackers, but not quite. And, you know, moving through life, I think, like, I think we almost become different people as we grow up. I mean, I think I'm in my early 40s now, and am I the same person? I was 10 years ago. So yes, but no. And that's okay. Yeah, I don't even know where I'm going. But yeah.Michele Hansen  27:31  It's interesting you say that I love how you dove into the identity shifts of that. And you're like, so even though you're no longer with, you know, indie hackers proper. I still think of you as the mama bear. The indie world is my head but like that's, that's it's you know, Rosie, Sherry mama bear of the indie hackers.Rosie Sherry  27:59  Well, I like that. I'll have to put that on my Twitter. But it's interesting, right? People will always remember you for different things. So there'll be people from the testing community who will always remember me for ministry testing, and things I did, and nothing will probably change as much in a ton of indie hackers out there will remember me as being the mom of their I love it. Yeah, and like, the more I do all of it, orbit, the more people associated me not with being indie, but being more all about community. And that's okay, as well. Right? And what does it mean is that, I don't know. But But I think like, I mean, you know, I guess it goes back to trends, life, the world changing, no one has careers for life anymore. And this is you know, probably I guess a proof of it is like, let's, you know, change as we grow, let's be okay with, like, actually discovering things. As we learn about ourselves, and as we learn about the world around us, and, and adapt and we should Yeah, I think we should all be able to do that and make make it feel okay. And make it you know, not not feel like step backwards, is you know, it's not a step backwards. It's just like, as you as an individual, you you're doing what's what's right for you at any point in your life. And that's, you know, that's okay.Michele Hansen  29:45  I'm reminded of the Walt Whitman, quote, I contain multitudes and, and I feel like what you're saying is, is about that we have many different identities and even the identities of us in other people's minds may be different than what we think of ourselves as or reflects a version of us in the past. And, you know, you're that that identity that you had as a founder, the identity you had, as the community person for indie hackers. As rosy land, as community person at orbit, like, all of those are valid, and they all exist, regardless of you know, what you're currently we're doing. And I feel like, what you're saying is, you don't really have to choose one, you know, you can still you can still have all of those pieces and so many more pieces of yourself. And, and it's okay to shift and change and grow.Rosie Sherry  30:54  No, think like, as as, I guess, like an unschooling approach to things we encourage, everything we do is like child led learning. And, like, I live that, that same philosophy in life is like, you know, I think like, like, as I get older, I just, I just can't spend any time on anything I don't enjoy. And then when I look at my kids, I'm like, why should they have to spend any time on the things that they don't enjoy, we should, like, you know, focus, focus all our energy as much as is possible to do the things that we love, because that's, that's like a really special place to be. And, like, at the moment, like, like, you know, I've been working for 23 years of my life, when I started out, working. Man, it was just like, a different place. And like, where I am, now, I'm like, this is just such a better place to be doing work that, that I love that I appreciate that, that, you know, I believe I can have impact on. And if I look back at myself, like 20 years ago, and see see where I am now, I say, I would have like, I guess, never, never imagined that this kind of life is possible. The life I had then was about working in jobs that I didn't really enjoy that much, or for companies that I wasn't really, that interested in what they were doing. And now it's like, everything's flipped to like, I'm working for a company that I believe in what they're doing, I enjoy the day to day work, we're aligned in the things that we want to do. And that's just like, Whoa, you know, how, you know, how great is that, to be a part of that. And regardless of the outcome, whether, you know, I continue to rise up in the company where they continue to get pay raises, whether whether orbit ends up, you know, growing massively in IPO, and that that doesn't matter. To me, it's like what matters is, you know, being able to do do what I love, right now.Michele Hansen  33:22  Follow the things you love, even if those things take you from entrepreneurship, to working for other people and changing your identity. And, yeah,Rosie Sherry  33:34  I look at Patrick, my, one of the cofounders I see some of the things that he has to do as a founder. And I'm like, I'm so glad I'm not doing that. And like I can see it as the founders because like, not not to the same extent, you know, they've raised money, it's a different game. But you know, that the same principles applies, like, I don't have to do any of that stuff. And I'm very happy about that.Michele Hansen  34:03  It sounds like you're in a good place. Now. I want I want to thank you for for joining us today. You know, we again, in this sort of indie world, we talk a lot about building in public and you know, I talked about writing in public. But something I am really valuing lately is when people are willing to be vulnerable in public. And I feel so much from that of that from you. And not only in on on Twitter, and your support of other people, but also here today. And, and I have a feeling that your story today is it's gonna make somebody at least one person feel feel less alone and feel feel better about their journey. Hopefully you know, less shame about Going from entrepreneurship to employment?Rosie Sherry  35:06  I hope so. I hope so. I try. I think it's, it's hard, I guess. I mean, I don't know what your experiences but like women in tech when in business, whether it's like, I guess it's hard to stand up to certain things and be open about the challenges that we have. And so yeah, I try my best, I think my confidence increases over time. I will say, I don't give a damn anymore, like what people think. I don't know if that comes of age. But like, you know, I definitely wasn't this open about everything before. So, yeah, part of me like does it to, to help other people see, I think it's important, like, who I am a woman, five kids on schooling. I kind of want to show people that. Yeah, yes, I'm a bit obsessive with the things that I want to do. I'm, like, you know, switched on, like, all the time, pretty much. But But I spend lots of time with my kids as well, you know, I managed to make it work. And I guess that my hope is that in time, like more people can be like this, if that's what they choose, you know, if they, if they can see the possibility. You know, it's done me a lot of good. And I guess, like, there must be more people out there that want something like this. And for them to be able to see an example. I guess is, is what's in the back of my mind when I tweet when I write when I do my things? Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you. Yeah,Michele Hansen  36:59  thank you so much for yesterday. I've really enjoyed this conversation.Rosie Sherry  37:05  Thank you, Michelle. I appreciate catching up.Michele Hansen  37:08  If you enjoyed this episode, please let Rosie and I know on Twitter. You can find us at software social pot. Thanks

Go to deployempathy.com to buy the audiobook private podcast, physical book, or ebook!This episode of Software Social is brought to you by Reform.As a business owner, you need forms all the time for lead capture, user feedback, SaaS onboarding, job applications, early access signups, and many other types of forms.Here's how Reform is different:- Your brand shines through, not Reform's- It's accessible out-of-the-box... And there are no silly design gimmicks, like frustrating customers by only showing one question at a timeJoin indie businesses like Fathom Analytics and SavvyCal and try out Reform.Software Social listeners get 1 month for free by going to reform.app/social and using the promo code "social" on checkout.AUTOMATED TRANSCRIPTMichele Hansen  0:01  Hey, everyone, Michele here. Colleen is at a conference this week. So doing something a little bit different this week and wanted to give you a preview of the audio book podcast for Deploy Empathy. So as I've kind of mentioned on previous episodes, I am releasing the audio book every week as a podcast as I record it. Part of the idea of this was kind of to sort of sort of do like I did with the newsletter with the book and sort of you know, do it and you know, sort of chapters at a at a time. And so I didn't have to spend you know, two weeks recording which is just, I didn't didn't really have two weeks, you know, of full workdays to sort of lock myself in a closet and record it. So this is allowing me to record it as I have time. Which is kind of a challenge as I say this right now, my desk is literally surrounded and pillows from the last time I recorded which was like two weeks ago. So So yeah, it's been it's been kind of an interesting challenge. But I have been enjoying it. And it's also allowed me to get feedback on it as well. This is my first time recording an audio book. So if anything sounds weird, or whatnot, like people can, you know, give me feedback, and I get a chance to re record as I go. So, so yeah, so it started in I want to say the end of August. And currently, it's on Part Six, which is the how to talk so people will talk section of the book, which is maybe my favorite section of the book. I admit I was a little bit nervous going into recording these chapters because the tone of voice is so important. And I wanted to make sure that I got that right. And I think I got a little bit in my head about that. But I think it I think it came out Okay, so I think I think I'm happy with it. But so yeah, so So this week you're gonna get a chance to preview the the the private podcast, there are still spots in it if you want to join so it's limited to 500 people and right now I think there's about a little under 200 so there's quite a few spots left if you wanted to, to join along, but also you know what, once the full thing is recorded, which I don't really I guess it'll be sort of end of the year early next year. You know, it'll also be available as a regular audio book not quite sure what I'm going to do with the podcast I'm actually kind of curious to hear if people want that to stick around or whatnot. I don't I wonder if it makes it more digestible to get through but maybe that value is on the you know that it's coming out every week, right now. So yeah, hope you enjoy and Colleen and I will be next back next week.Part Six, how to talk So people will talk. This is the most important part of this book. The tactics you'll learn build toward one goal, creating a bubble of suspended judgment, where the person feels comfortable being open. Throughout this part, you'll also find ways to practice these skills before using them in customer conversations. We'll go into each of these in depth one, use a gentle tone of voice to validate them. Three, leave pauses for them to fill for, mirror and summarize their words. Five, don't interrupt, six, use simple wording. Seven asked for clarification, even when you don't need it. Eight. Don't explain anything. Nine. Don't negate them in any way. And let them be the expert. Love it. Use their words and pronunciation 12 asked about time and money already spent. Lastly, you'll learn how to pull it all together by picturing yourself as a rubber duck. Trust me, it'll take you some time and some practice. But I think you'll notice a difference even in your personal life. By using these phrases and tactics. I want you to make me a promise, you'll only use what I'm about to teach you for good, you won't be manipulative, and you won't use what people say against them. deploying the tactics in this chapter can make someone open up to you much more than they otherwise would. Someone's confidence is a sacred gift. And it should be handled gently, respectfully and ethically. That respect should continue after the interview to I expect you to carry through the empathy you build for the customer well beyond the interview, and use empathy as part of your decision making process. Before we get into the tactics and phrases, it's important to understand just how much these tactics can transform a conversation. I got my start doing proper customer interviews in the personal finance industry. In America, people are generally very private about their personal finance decisions and situations. It's an extremely delicate topic. And because of this, I had to learn interviewing in a rigorous way. I didn't realize how much the techniques outlined in this chapter had woven themselves into my everyday conversation habits until I was at the grocery store a few years ago, I was in line with a dozen items and notice that the cashier hugged the woman in front of me, and they interacted with one another in a heartfelt way. I must have just finished an interview because I found myself asking the cashier about it. me with a smile. Oh, I noticed you hugged her. Is that your sister? cashier? No, she's just a longtime customer. I've worked here for a long time. me. Oh, you have? cashier? Yeah, almost 20 years. I'm due to retire soon. Companies changed a lot in that time. me. Oh hasn't. cashier proceeds to tell me about how the store chain was bought out by another chain 10 years ago, how they changed the retirement plan how she's worried about having enough income from Social Security, her 401k her old pension and retirement and how she's making extra 401k contributions. This was all in the span of less than five minutes. As she rang up the dozen or so items I had in my basket. It's important to note that this cashier wasn't just a particularly chatty person. This was my local grocery store. And I had been there a few times per week. For several years at this point. I'd been in this woman's line many many times. And we had never had more than a simple polite conversation about the weather, or how busy the store was that day. I went home and told a former co worker about it and joked Do I have Tell me about your retirement planning written on my forehead. I was amazed that a stranger had told me that kind of information in such a short amount of time. My former co worker pointed out that it was a sign of just how much interview skills had worked themselves into my everyday conversation style. And how I become so much more effective at digging into the heart of an issue without too much effort. For someone who's only negative mark in their first professional performance review was that I was abrasive and was diagnosed with a DD it'll 11 years old, it came as quite a shock to realize I now had an active listening conversation style without even realizing it. That experience taught me how we need to be careful with these skills, and to know when to hit the brakes. It's a person's decision what to reveal. But I always keep that story in mind and remind myself to back off or shift topics. When it seems like someone is on the verge of saying too much. It's possible to make someone too comfortable and safe. It's always okay to say thank you for telling me that I was wondering if we could go back to something you said earlier. I'm curious about something else. It also reminded me of how so many people don't have people in their lives who will just listen to them. Especially about things that are processes or tasks they complete daily or goals that are top of mind. The cashier at the grocery store clearly spent a lot of time thinking and worrying about the different sources of Income she'd have in retirement and whether they would be enough, but maybe didn't have anyone who would listen to her talk about that. I find that once you build trust with someone and show them that you're willing to listen, they will talk. Because no one has ever cared about that part of their daily life before. Maybe they grew up to a co worker about how long something takes, but they've probably never sat down and had someone genuinely ask them what they think about creating server uptime reports or following up on invoices, they've probably never really talked through where they spend a lot of time the tools they use, and so forth. They've probably never had anyone care enough to try to make it better for them. Just being a presence who's willing to listen is more powerful than people realize how customer interviews differ from other kinds of interviews. If you're already familiar with other kinds of interviewing, it might be interesting for you to read with an eye for how this kind of interviewing differs, journalistic interviewing, motivational interviewing and a negotiation based interview all bears similarities to user interviewing, yet they also have significant differences. The first professional interview I ever did was the summer I was interning at the Washington bureau of a British newspaper. the BP oil spill had happened a few months earlier. And my boss asked me to interview someone thinking back that was a very different interview from the customer interviews I started doing years later, in that BP oil spill interview, I was digging for information and I was looking for specific quotes that could be used in an article I already knew about the oil spill, so I wasn't looking to learn their perspective on it. Instead, I needed them to say specific things and say them in a quotable way. Customer interviews by contrast, are all about diving into how the other person perceives an experience and intentionally suspending the desire to validate your own ideas. Later, after the interview has finished, you can analyze the interview and see what opportunities might exist. We'll talk about that more in Part Eight analyzing interviews. Chapter 25 use a gentle tone of voice.In Chris Voss, his book never split the difference. He suggests using a late night DJ voice in negotiations. You're listening to wb mt 88.3 FM therapists will often speak in soft slow voices as a method of CO regulation to calm their patients. These techniques help put the other person at ease and create an environment where they feel safe. These techniques apply when you're talking to customers to a customer interviews should be conducted in the most harmless voice you can possibly muster. Imagine you're asking a treasured older family member about a photo of themselves as a young person. There might be a gentle, friendly tone of voice, a softness to your tone, genuine judgment free curiosity. Or perhaps picture that a close friend has come to you experiencing a personal crisis in the middle of the night. You would listen to them calmly and just try to figure out what was going on. You probably wouldn't start offering ideas or solutions to their problem and would focus on helping them get back to a clear state of mind. use that same gentleness in your customer interviews. It's important to note though, that you cannot be condescending. I purposefully do not say to speak to them like you would a child because people have very different ways of talking to children. Think of your customer as someone you respect and you can learn from because you should and you can. Why did you do it that way set in a medium volume voice with emphasis on certain words could make it sound accusatory and put them on the defensive versus will lead you to do it like that. And a gentle, unassuming, curious voice will help them open up. Try this now. The next time a friend or family member comes to you with a problem. Intentionally use the gentlest voice you can muster when you talk to them. The next time use your normal approach. Notice whether the person reacts differently. Chapter 26 validate them. books on product development often talk about validation, validating ideas, validating prototypes, validating business models.This chapter is about an entirely different kind of validation. It's a pivotal part of getting someone to open up to you. This chapter is about what psychologists and therapists describe as validating statements. These are specific phrases you can use to show someone that you're engaged with what they're saying. It's okay to have trepidation about what you would say in an interview, and how you would come up with follow up questions. Yet most of what you say during an interview aren't questions at all. Instead, you use validating statement It's that shows someone you're open to what they're saying and are listening. Your goal is for them to talk as much as possible. And you as little aim for the interviewee to do 90% of the talking in the interview. In a customer interview, you use validation, even when you don't necessarily agree with what they say. Or even if what they say sounds absurd to you. It does not mean that you agree with them. It is instead a way of recognizing that what they think and do is valid from their perspective. You cannot break that bubble of trust ever, even when something wacky cans, which I can. In a memorable interview years ago, the interviewee suddenly said, Sorry, I'm eating a case of beer right now, about 45 minutes into the phone call. Mind you, this person had given zero previous indications that they were eating. My research partner, the unflappable research expert, Dr. Helen fake, just rolled with it and said, Oh, you're fine. Notice what she said there. She didn't say no worries or not a problem or don't worry about it, all of which either hinge on negating a negative word, worries problem, and thus leave the negative word in the person's mind. Or invalidating instead told him he was fine. Not, that's fine, which is abstract. But explicitly putting the interviewee as the subject. And that saying that he is fine, which validated his state as a person. It was subtle yet next level of conversational jujitsu that will start to come naturally to you, the more you practice this, you also cannot say that you agree with them, or congratulate them, or do anything that implies that you have an opinion. Even if it's a positive opinion, this is probably one of the strangest parts of how to make an interview flow. And for many people, it runs counter to their built in instincts to be positive and encouraging. The person you're interviewing may ask you if you agree, and you need to purposely find a way to make that question go away. I can see where you're coming from on that. Can you tell me rather than Yeah, I agree. agreeing or disagreeing will remind them that you're a human being with opinions and judgments, and the trust will start to melt away, you almost want them to forget that you're a person. For example, when I was interviewing people about their finances, they would admit to doing things that a financial planner or portfolio manager would never endorse, even though we knew that we couldn't correct them. We also couldn't agree with them, either. We were searching for their internal logic and thought processes. And if we were introduced outside information, or agree or disagree with them, they would have shifted into trying to impress us and holding back information, examples of validating statements. That makes sense. I can see why you would do it that way. I'm interested to hear more about how you came to doing it that way. Would you be able to walk me through the context behind that? I can see what you're saying. It sounds like that's frustrating. That sounds like that's time consuming. It sounds like that's challenging. Sounds like you think that could be improved? Can you help me understand What went through your mind? When? Can you tell me more about? It makes sense. You think that? It makes sense? You do it that way? Sounds like there are several steps involved. I'm curious, can you walk me through them? Sounds like a lot goes into that.When using validating phrases, I encourage you to use the word think instead of feel. Some people I've noticed will find it insulting to say that they feel a certain way. But think is interpreted as more neutral and factual. For example, you feel the process is complicated. Versus you think the process is complicated, or better. The process is complicated. And remember, most people like to think their job is challenging. years ago, I heard someone talk about their recent move to LA. their spouse was in the entertainment industry and this person was not. And they kept finding themselves struggling to make conversation at cocktail parties. But eventually they learned a trick. Whenever someone said what they did, they replied with that sounds challenging. Even if the person's job sounded easy or boring. People would open up because it felt like a compliment. And it would lead to an interesting conversation about the things that person did at work. What that person found was that encouraging someone to keep talking requires Turning the conversation back over to them. Rather than offering your own ideas. Try this now. The next time a friend or family member shares a problem with you and does not explicitly ask you for advice, say that makes sense or another one of the validating statements mentioned previously, rather than offering a solution. Sometimes people say I just don't know what to do, which sounds like an invitation to offer a solution but may not be. If that happens, ask them about what they've already tried. Chapter 27 leave pauses for them to fill. Several years ago, I was sitting in the audience at the DC tech meetup. I was there to support a friend who was giving a presentation. And something one of the panelists said stuck with me and it's something I remind myself about during every customer interview. Radio producer melody Kramer was asked what she had learned while working for Terry Gross host of the long running NPR interview show fresh air. She said that Terry Gross his interview strategy is to ask a question and then to wait and wait and wait at least three long beats until it is uncomfortable. Quote, the other person will fill the silence and what they fill it with will often be the most interesting part of the interview. I remember Cramer quoting gross as saying this tactic of saying something and then waiting at least three beats for the other person to fill it is something that I use in every single interview often multiple times. The length of what feels like a long pause varies from person to person. The research of linguist Dr. Deborah Tannen, shows that people from different American regions tend to have different conversation styles. A coordinator her research, people from the northeastern us may talk over one another to show engagement. While California and may wait for a pause to jump in. People from different continents can have different conversation styles to people from East Asia may wait for an even longer pause and could interpret what seems like a suitable pause to the California as an interruption. A three beat pause may seem long disarm and normal to others. I encourage you to experiment with us and add an extra two to three beats on top of whatever is normal for you. In addition to pauses, I also encourage you to notice whether you provide prompts and additional questions. What do you do if the other person doesn't respond right away? Imagine you're trying to figure out what kind of delivery to order for dinner with a friend or spouse. Do you say Where should we order takeout from and let it hang? Perhaps you had possible answers like where should we order takeout from? Should we get pizza? Chinese sushi? One of the ways people make a typical conversation flow is by adding these sorts of little prompting words, when someone doesn't reply immediately. Maybe the prompting is an offering answers like above. And it's just a rephrase without offering an answer like where should we order takeout from? Do you wanna? while adding gesticulation. In an interview, you need to avoid prompting as best as you can, lest you influence the person's answer. When you ask a question, you need to let it hang and let the customer fill the silence. So can you tell me why you even needed a product like your product in the first place? And wait?Don't prompt. If they don't reply right away? Don't say was it for use case one, or maybe use case two? Just wait. I know how hard this is. In fact, there's a point in the example customer interview where I slipped up and prompted cool was there, or is there anything else? Did you have any other questions or?Drew  24:10  No, I think that's everything I have.Michele Hansen  24:14  Now, sometimes it might get truly awkward. The person you're interviewing may not respond. If they say, Are you still there? You can gently bring the conversation back to focus on them and say something that elevates what they've already said like, Yeah, I was just giving you a moment to think. Oh, I was just jotting down what you just said that seemed important. And then rephrase what you'd like them to expand on. Yes, I'm still here. Do you want to come back to that later? Oh, we just sounded like you're about to say something. If anything too long pauses and the interviewers phrases the follow, make the customer feel even more important and reinforce that they are in the dominant role in this conference. It puts them in the role of teacher which marketing psychology expert Dr. Robert Steele, Dini, has identified as a powerful way of influencing another person's behavior. You want them to teach you about their view of the process. And this sort of almost differential treatment through pauses, helps elevate them into that teaching position. To get the answers you need about the customers process, you need to create a safe judgment free environment, you need to hand the stage entirely over to the customer, and talk as little as possible. And leaving silences without prompting is one of the ways you can do that. Try this now. The next time you're having an everyday conversation, not a tense conversation, not appointed conversation. Notice whether you ask a question and wait. Chapter 28 mirror and summarize their words. I have a friend who used that a parrot named Steve. I remember listening amused as he told me about the conversations he had with Steve. This was years before I learned about active listening. And now it makes more sense to me why parrots are great conversationalist, even though their vocabulary is limited. What parents do is repeat words back at people and repeating words back at someone and rephrasing what they've said, as the magical power of encouraging them to elaborate. It's a tactic that therapists and negotiators use all the time. CHAPTER TWO OF never split the difference by Chris Voss is a deep dive on mirroring. And you can also learn about it and nonviolent communication by Marshall Rosenberg. Consider this excerpt from the example interview, I wasn'tDrew  26:44  really seriously considering anything that had a paywall on it was I wasn't sure that it would ever pay itself back off. I knew there were other options out there that would either require moving our storage and our database altogether, which didn't really seem appealing, or having two different services, one to manage each. But then the storage still being just as complicated only somewhere else.Michele Hansen  27:07  It sounds like you had a lot of things you were trying to like wave back and forth about whether you should sort of try to plunge forward with this thing that was already being very frustrating. Or then all of the the negative effects of switching and all the complications that that would introduce.Drew  27:23  I really didn't want to spend a whole lot of time investing, you know, building up a new infrastructure for a new product for new servers to handle this one thing that I think the most frustrating part was that it worked in now it doesn't.Michele Hansen  27:36  You'll notice there aren't any question marks and what I said as a follow up. I rephrased what he said as a statement, which then prompted him to expand on it. This is a combination of two conversation tactics, mirroring and summarizing, mirroring is repeating what someone has said. And summarizing is when you rephrase what they have said, and sometimes label their feelings, you can hear another example of mirroring in the sample interview, he describes himself running into a lot of walls, jumping through a lot of hoops. And that phrasing is mirrored back for elaboration.Drew  28:10  And Firebase Storage just did not work as easily. As it was we found ourselves running into a lot of walls, jumping through a lot of hoops just to make the simplest things work.Michele Hansen  28:22  Can you tell me a little bit more about those hoops and walls that you ran into? negotiation expert Chris Voss notes that it's important to say it rather than I, when summarizing, it sounds like is more neutral, then I'm hearing that since in the second one, you're centering yourself as the subject, but the first phrase centers the situation. For example, if your spouse or roommate comes home seeming frazzled, man, what a day, I had, like 10 calls today. You mirroring. You had 10 calls today. The other person? Yeah, and then my last one didn't even show up and I'd had to cut the previous call short to make it. If I'd known they weren't going to show up. I could have gotten this thing sorted out and then I wouldn't have to work tonight. You summarizing and labeling. Sounds like you had a lot of calls today. And because someone didn't show up, you're feeling frustrated that you have to finish your work tonight. Notice that none of these follow ups or questions? Oh, are you talking to new clients? The clarifications are simple restatements of what the person has said without added editorial zation of the events. Try this now. When a friend or family member says something to you about their day, try stating back at them what they've said. Then try summarizing what they've said as a statement. Sometimes a gentle upward tone implies interest more depending on the person

Jack and Paul get into all the things that have been happening behind the scenes at Fathom Analytics, including: a new graph, some nerdy details about infrastructure updates, better labels for data on our dashboard, the new high traffic page, and our latest multi-domains feature.

Michele Hansen  0:01  This episode of Software Social is brought to you by Reform.As a business owner, you need forms all the time for lead capture, user feedback, SaaS onboarding, job applications, early access signups, and many other types of forms.Here's how Reform is different:- Your brand shines through, not Reform's- It's accessible out-of-the-box... And there are no silly design gimmicks, like frustrating customers by only showing one question at a timeJoin indie businesses like Fathom Analytics and SavvyCal and try out Reform.Software Social listeners get 1 month for free by going to reform.app/social and using the promo code "social" on checkout.Colleen Schnettler  0:51  So Michelle, how are things going with your book tour?Michele Hansen  0:54  So the book tour itself is going well, I did indie hackers build your SAS searching for SAS one end product? I just recorded another one. yesterday. No, no, no, today? No, that was I feel like I'm doing a lot with it. Because that's what says because I had I love it. Let's see yesterday, no Tuesday, I did a session with founder summit. And then I also had a call with someone about being on their podcast yesterday. That'll be in November, and then I've scheduled another one for October. And then I did another group session today. And then yeah, actually, it was when I got off of that and Mateus was like, you know what you just did? And I was like, What? Like, he was like, you just did consulting? And I was like, No, I did. Like cuz it was Yeah. No, I did. I was like, it wasn't personalized. It was just like a workshop and people asked like questions, like, I just, I just talked about the book. And I was like, No, it wasn't he was like, yeah, it wasn't like that. No, it wasn't. Um, yeah, I think I actually kind of need to like, Cool it a bit on the promotion stuff. Like dude, like, this week, I spent like two days this week, creating a Google Sheets plugin for geocoder Oh, it was so nice to like, be playing around with spreadsheet functions again, like, after doing all this like writing and then talking about this stuff I wrote like, it was very comfortable. It was much more comfortable than talking about.Colleen Schnettler  2:42  Like, I don't know, it was your happy was when you went Excel.Michele Hansen  2:46  It really is. Um, but actually, so I have another spreadsheet that doesn't have any fun functions in it is the number of books I have sold, adding up, you know. Okay. For 490 400Colleen Schnettler  3:03  my gosh, that's amazing.Michele Hansen  3:07  I know, it's so close to 500. And it's been so close to 100 500 for like days. And like, the other day, I was like, maybe I'm, like, tapped out the market for this at 490. Like, that's really good. Like the average book sells like 300. So like, that's really good. Um, and, yeah, so so I'm going to do like, I'm going to be on some other podcasts and whatnot. And like, I remember seeing once. Rob Fitzpatrick once, I think actually, it's in his new book. He has a graph of the revenue of the mom test and like, the growth of that book is I mean, a case in compounding.Colleen Schnettler  3:52  Okay, so, right. SoMichele Hansen  3:54  you know, it's not all like in the beginning, and like, there's really positive signs, like people are recommending to other people, people are writing reviews, like, so. So yeah, I feel good. But man, I really want to get to 500. I don't know, I haven't been thinking about the numbers very much. I mean, it's only six but like, I really, I really want to get to 500. I don't know why, like it's like getting to like, you know, 1000 or what it like that's that's not even like remotely like a possibility to me, like I don't even really think about it. But now it's like so close. And like that would be so awesome.Colleen Schnettler  4:25  I wager a guess that by the time this podcast airs on Tuesday, you will be at 500.Michele Hansen  4:31  That's only six more books. Maybe Maybe. And by the way, if people want a free copy of this of the book, so if you are listening, when it comes out on on Tuesday or Wednesday, transistor.fm is running a little giveaway on their Twitter account. I think Justin saw my like, I think 490 is all I'm ever gonna sell. Okay. And I was like, no. So they're giving away five copies of the book. You just have to go retweet the tweets about the book. So yeah, nice. Yeah. If you just go to the deploy wonderful,Colleen Schnettler  5:05  that'll help expand your reach.Michele Hansen  5:07  Yeah, it was interesting hearing that I was like helping you interview people on podcast. I'm like, Yeah, I guess you could. I mean, it doesn't have to just be for. for customers.Colleen Schnettler  5:19  Anyway, oh, yeah, your book applies to so much. So that's where the,Michele Hansen  5:23  that's that's where the book is. But I gotta say, I think I think I need to give myself a little break on promotion. Otherwise, I'm gonna, I'm gonna burn out on thatColleen Schnettler  5:33  for right now. Yeah, I was thinking about that when you were talking about like, how you're hitting it so hard. I was like, wait, Isn't this what happened with writing the book? And then afterwards, you're like,Michele Hansen  5:43  Yes, I have a pattern. Yes. way overboard. And then I exhaust myself.Colleen Schnettler  5:53  So maybe we should approach it like a marathon instead of a sprint? Yeah,Michele Hansen  5:57  I think so. I haven't scheduled anything for next week. So I don't have anything scheduled until the first week of October. So okay. Yeah, kind of just, yeah. So so you know, hopefully by the, you know, yeah. Bye. By the time I'm on again, because I'm off next week. I vacation. Yeah. Oh my god, dude, I'm going to American, I'm so excited. So happy for you. Okay, um, I can't wait to just go to Target and Trader Joe's anyway.Colleen Schnettler  6:34  So if you're not have target, and then we do notMichele Hansen  6:36  have target, we have a story that's inspired by target or like more like, inspired by Walmart. But like, it's just like, there's just nothing like getting a Starbucks and walking around target. You know, it's just true story. Anyway, um, what's going on with you?Colleen Schnettler  6:52  So I did quite a bit of work on simple file uploads. Since we last talked, I actually spent a good chunk of time doing some technical work, some cleanup work that needed to be done. But I have gotten the demo on my homepage. Oh, it's really exciting. Yeah,Michele Hansen  7:10  the like, code pen demo thing that we've been talking about for a while, right? Correct.Colleen Schnettler  7:15  Okay, instead of putting a code pen up, I actually just put a drop zone. So you can literally, if you go into my site, it just says drop a file to try it. And you can drop a file. Wait, so that is something I know. Right? So that's something I've been talking about doing for a long time, which I finally got done. So that's exciting. Yeah. And there was some other stuff with like the log on flow, that wasn't really quite correct. It wasn't wrong, it just wasn't really right. So I just spent a lot of time kind of getting that cleaned up. Oh, and the API for deleting events. So that was a real hustle for me, because I have someone who reached out to me, and they were like, Hey, we totally want to use your thing. But we have to be able to delete files, you know, from our software, not from the dashboard. And so that external forcing function of this potential customer just made me do it. And so I have that done. So I Oh, I feel now that I have like a completely functioning piece of software. Did they buy it? So that's exciting? Not yet. They claim that they're going to start their project like next month? I don't know if they will or won't, but we'd have developed kind of like, relatively frequent ish email communication and stuff. So I think it'll be good. Either way, it forced me to kind of do it. So I'm happy to have that because that is something I really wanted to do. Because I wanted to make sure I had that before I allow multiple uploads. So the question now Oh, and we had a huge I mean, a huge spike. We don't the site doesn't get tons and tons of visitors. But we had a huge spike in visitors because we're actually publishing content. Oh, yeah. So like things are I'm doing things. So that's exciting to get the documentation stuffMichele Hansen  9:03  done that we talked about.Colleen Schnettler  9:05  So I decided that it wasn't worth my time to completely rip out the documentation and redo it. So but I did go in there and try to take what I had, which as your to your point, I think last week or two weeks ago, is you said, you know, it's fine. It kind of looks like a readme like it's not beautiful, but it's functional. So I tried to make it more functional by adding more documentation. And then I hired a developer to write a blog post, I shouldn't say almost more like a tutorial, how to use this in react. So his article is up. So I've been putting a lot of content on the site the past week.Michele Hansen  9:41  You are on fire.Colleen Schnettler  9:44  I know girl, I'm feeling good. I mean, part of it is like hiring my own sister has been so good for me because she can call me on my bullshit, because she works for me, but she's also like my best friend. So she's like, just stop whining and just do it. I'm like, okay, I joke like she's part marketing expert part like life coach, like,Michele Hansen  10:06  it sounds like you've got the fire under you now.Colleen Schnettler  10:11  I do. I mean, I have not seen. Okay, so it's only been a week right. So we've seen an increase in the ticket people coming to the site. I have not seen any kind of great increase in signups signups are still. Well, actually, I have not seen a great increase in signups. But what I have seen is my file uploader hit 10,000 files uploaded this week, like people are using, right. Right. So what has happened is remember the beginning I was really concerned because all these people were signing up and then like 30% of the people were using it. So all those non users have turned. So the people who are paying me now are actually using it actively. So that's good. Yeah, that's really good. Yeah. So I'm not seeing an increase my MRR still bouncing around 1000. Again, nothing to sneeze at. Like, it's a good number. But I haven't seen any kind of great jumps. But I think part of that is because the people who aren't using it have left and then the people who are using it, you know, the people who have signed up or actually committed to using it.Michele Hansen  11:14  Right. But new people have not come in that have replaced the people have checked who have turnedColleen Schnettler  11:20  right, not really like a couple. But you know, at one point, I had three people paying me 250 bucks a month. Like That was pretty awesome that now I only have one personMichele Hansen  11:28  is that is that the the whale that we talked about that like wasn't using it and wasn't Replying to Your Yeah.Colleen Schnettler  11:33  So I've had three of those people come in and come out. One is still there. Again, not using it not responding to emails. But I'm not trying to hassle them. So Alright, if that's what you wanted? Yeah. So I'm trying to figure out so I'm fit. I mean, the energy there is really good. And I feel like I've made a lot of I've done a lot of things. I haven't seen yet. The the response from that from a revenue standpoint, but I feel like if I just keep pushing in this direction, I'll get there. So I'm trying to decide what to do next. So why for so long, I had this list of things. And every time we talked, I felt like getting advice from you on what to do next wasn't really useful, because I hadn't even done the other things I was supposed to do. But now I have done the other things. So I'm trying to decide if you should focus on other ways to use it. So now that I have an API for deletion, I can open up multiple file uploads, which is kind of cool. I already do it for a client, like on the on the download secretly because I control their site, but I could. So I could write more content, showing people how to actually use it and like, and kind of go in that direction. Or I could make the UI more flashy and add a, like an image modifier editing tool, which would be kind of cool. Or I could, I don't know, that's what I got right now.Michele Hansen  12:58  What are you? What are your customers Asia doColleen Schnettler  13:01  my customer search. So we are trying to do another round of customer interviews. So I did, we offered a $25 amazon gift card. And we're going around to everyone who's actively using it to see if anyone wants to talk to us. So we are doing that we are trying to do and that was another thing. Like I'm kind of proud of myself, just because when we moved here, our schedule is so variable, I couldn't really get like solid work hours like this is when I can work. But we did send out those emails requesting customer interviews. So that is on the docket.Michele Hansen  13:34  Because like I could sit here and be like, Oh, yeah, like that sounds good. But like, Don't listen to me. Like I don't I don't know, like, you know, I have a question for you. That's kind of kind of a different topic, but I feel like you are so you're so enthusiastic right now. And I have to wonder whether working on stuff for your like, quote, unquote, day job, which was you know, the consulting before and then was the other company and now and now is Hammerstone like, like, I kind of have to wonder if like working on stuff during like work is likeColleen Schnettler  14:15  ifMichele Hansen  14:16  if that is working on something you're excited about during the day is energizing you for your side project because I just feel like the energy that I am hearing from you is like so much more than it has been before. Like you're just like,Colleen Schnettler  14:35  I fired up. I totally am Michelle, I someone had you know, all those there's always tweets like oh, all the things, the best decisions I've ever made in my life or you know, all that stuff. I saw one the other day and it was the two most important decisions you're going to make in your life are who you marry and what you do for a living. And I can tell I mean I'm literally for the first time in ever I'm in my late 30s first time in ever doing exactly what I have always wanted to do. And it's amazing. I mean, and the coolest thing is like the Hammerstone stuff. So I'm working on that I'm working with people I think are awesome. I go to sleep, and I wake up and my business partner has like, done this amazing stuff because he's just like cranking out code like a rock star. And I'm like, oh, Aaron's like, oh, while you were sleeping. I made this totally amazing thing. I'm like, glad I partnered with you, buddy. Because you know, what's up?Michele Hansen  15:32  Every day, Aaron has like some new like, thing. And yeah, who is he? When do you sleep? Like what he was? Was twins. Yeah, like newborn twins. Like not just twins, but like not like, born like, I mean, I guess babies do some kind of sleep a lot at weird times. Oh, gee, I don't know. And he has been jaw. There's also like, there's kind of the like, we want we launched you akoto when Sophie was four months old. And I feel like there was like this, we got this, like motivation from it. Because it was like, you know, she would go to bed at like seven or 730. And then, you know, we knew she was gonna wake up at like, midnight or two or whatever. But it was like, Oh, my God, we finally have two hours to ourselves. Let's use it as productively as possible. Like this thing I've been thinking about this whole time while I was changing diapers, I can do it now. Like, and it was weirdly motivating, and also incredibly exhausting, and a blur, but I don't know. Yeah, yeah. Aaron, like, dude, you're a machine?Colleen Schnettler  16:34  Yeah, it's so impressive. I think part of that too, might be you know, with that thing, if you only have three hours to do something like, you get that thing done in three hours. versus if you give yourself 30 days to do it. It'll take you 30 days. Yeah. But I think for me, I mean, my journey, you know, has been from a job, I didn't really like to all kinds of bouncing around doing different things, to learning how to code years ago, always the goal when I was learning how to code was to get to where I am right now. And I'm finally here. And it is super awesomely exciting. Like, I'm literally working with someone I have wanted to not, I mean, also Aaron, but like, not just him, working with someone I've always wanted to work with on something that's exciting. And it's like our business, I can't imagine a better knock on wood. I can't imagine a better work scenario for me. And I think that energy that comes from that scenario, absolutely bleeds into simple file upload, like, honestly, you know, a couple weeks ago, I was like, I should just sell it and be done with it. Like I was just kind of over it. And then hiring my sister really helped because she's really excited. And like, just having a higher level of energy in general, for this thing. It's been really fun. You know,Michele Hansen  17:50  I feel like I've heard you talk a little bit about how when you were first starting out, and then working as an engineer, like electrical engineer, rather. And you were like talking to people at work about how like, you know, they had all these like hopes and dreams when they got out of college. And then like, those things never happened. And then they were it was 30 years later, and they were just miserable. And you were like, Oh my god, I'm not like, I can't do that. And I like I wonder what was the moment when you realized that? Like, your solution to that was like learning how to code like, what made that happen? And but like, inspired you to not only realize that it was possible, but like, but then you acted on it, like?Colleen Schnettler  18:45  Well, I think part of it for me is I worked for a big, firm, a big company. And via I mean, that wasn't just like one of the middle managers that was like, all of the middle managers, right? Clearly these guys, they had started at 23 or 22, because they wanted to pay off college loans. They started working, it was a very comfortable job, right? They paid us well, we don't want to say we didn't work that hard, but we really didn't work hard. It was a lot of very bureaucratic, right, like lots of meetings, lots of organizing. And you know, before they know it, before they knew it, these guys were comfortable. And then they got married and they had kids and you know, most of them, their spouse stayed home. So then they felt that they were in this position where they were totally stuck. And they I mean, 30 years, I'm not exaggerating, like these guys had been there for 30 years. And they kind of it was just like this pervasive energy of like, real like, you know, the whole energy was just kind of like, everyone was just kind of bummed about their situation like no, it was sad, but they were definitely, like, felt the weight of this really boring job they'd done for 30 years. And so for me, it was really hard because like, again, it's so comfortable like they loved me. They paid me well. didn't have to, you know, wasn't all that stressful. But like my first of all, it wasn't hard at all, like your brain when you don't get to think or you don't get to be like, in you intellectually stimulated. It's just like murrah, blah, blah, blah. And I didn't know if I could, I mean, what I'm doing now has always been the dream. I couldn't see that eight years ago. Like, if you had told me I'd be doing what I did eight, I'd be here. Eight years ago, I would have been like, there's no way like, it felt like a freakin mountain to climb. I mean, like, it would never, I would never ever get there. And, I mean, I think a lot of it was just like, you know, obviously, all the work I put in seeing it as a vision I could reach and the community I was part of, and, you know, the communities I built along the way, but I couldn't see it. I mean, that's why, you know, I kind of make that parallel sometimes with what I'm doing now. Because like, back then I couldn't see I could not, couldn't see it. Like, just, I'm still amazed. And I can't see myself, my friend the other day, who has a business said, Oh, I think it's way easier to go from 1k to 5k. And I was like, I can't even see that right now. Like, that feels like a million dollars to me. And he's like, Oh, it's way easier to go from one to 5k than zero to 1k. And I was like, Really? So? I don't know. I mean, yeah, there's a lot there. Yeah, IMichele Hansen  21:23  was thinking about the other day, cuz I was talking to someone who, who has had a hard life, but it turned out that they, you know, I was talking to them about what they do. And you know, they're, and, and they, and they're like, Oh, you know, but I kind of know how to edit videos, and, you know, do some graphic design and stuff. And I was like, dude, like, if you have a little bit of technical competency, and like turnout, they've done like little bit of like Python stuff. I was like, run with that. But I realized, like, I didn't actually know where to, like, send them. Like I told him about, like, indie hackers and you know, other stuff. And I was, but I was like, I was like, I don't actually know, like, where to send you to, like, learn how to like code or like, no code. Like, I think I said, I told him about bubble. And like, I mean, it was worth the reason why like we do this podcast in the first place is to kind of like, demystify this whole thing about like running your own little internet company, which is still a weird job. And, like, show people that it's possible, I guess, um, and that, you know, they don't have to be in a dead end job or selling leggings as you are.Colleen Schnettler  22:38  Yeah, we watched the die.Michele Hansen  22:40  Lula documentary, we started it. I thought of you the whole time. Yeah, I really, I didn't even know where to send them. And it just got me thinking about your story. And it's like, you're in a dead end job. Like, not only like, like, what? I don't know, like, what was that? Like? What inspired you to be like, yeah, I have to do something about it. And here's what I'm gonna do.Colleen Schnettler  23:08  So I think for me, it was a lot of things happened at once. But it was I was at a dead end job where I had some real jerks that I worked with. And it was like, I don't have to put up with this. Like, I'm out. Yeah. And so then it was, it went when I decided to go back to work. They want to be back. I mean, they want to take me back with no, no interviews, like no hard shit, like, just come on back. And man, that was tempting, because the money is so good, was good. But I saw those guys, those guys were always in my mind, like the guys who never took a shot. And I was like, I'm not gonna, I'm not going to be that person who never takes a shot. But to your friends point. This is what is so hard about making this kind of career change. There is no roadmap. I mean, the reason people wanted to sell leggings is because they tell you what to do. Trying to like start a career in tech. There's literally no roadmap. There's no you. It's like, overwhelmingly hard. Not only everyone's like, oh, there's tons of resources on the internet. That doesn't help. There's too many resources on the internet. There needs to be a framework where it's like, here is where you go, this is what you need to do. Here are the steps. Yeah, because no one, everyone's journey is different. And there aren't any steps. And so what happens I see this all the time, because I mentor, some people that are trying to get into software, and they are totally lost, just like I was because there's no roadmap. There's no steps, like what do you do next? Like, sure, no code, what the heck do I make with a no code tool? Like what should I do? What are people going to pay for? How do I find those people? Like, it just feels like so nebulous? And I think that's why although you hear all these great success stories, I think that's why making the transition is so hard. And for me, I took a ridiculous pay cut for four years before I've now exceed my previous income but significant exceed.But, I mean, that was years. I mean, there was probably three to four years where I had taken this, I mean, you know, ridiculous paycut to rebuild, and not everyone makes it on the rebuilding stage, like, there's just so many stages, you can get stuck, and you just can't. It's just not it's just not knowing the path forward, like now that I'm speaking this to you, that would be useful to people like,Michele Hansen  25:37  where do you do? Yeah, like,Colleen Schnettler  25:38  Where do you think I'm thinking?Michele Hansen  25:40  Like, there's Okay, there's like, there's programming courses, you know, there's 30 by 500. Like, there's kind of all you know, there, there's zero to some, you know, our recalls book, but like, I mean, it's almost like, you know, there's so many things that go into it, and it's so nebulous, it's almost like you should be able to, like, go to college for starting an internet business, except you can't, because there's so many things that go into it. And like, so when you were so like you so so so let me understand this correctly. So you worked the dead end job. And then you quit, and you stayed home with your kids for a while. And then you went back to work. And then you did. So you didn't, and you decided you weren't going to go back there. And basically, it sounds like the real, like, the light bulb for you that you weren't going to do that was you know, your own self worth. It sounds like, um, and that you just couldn't do that to yourself. And you felt like you deserved better. But then so when you went back to work, did you get an engineering job? Like it like an electrical engineering job? And then like, did you learn to code at night or something? Like, how did you tackle this?Colleen Schnettler  26:56  Yeah, so I never went back to work. So the first thing I did back what this 10 years ago now, I wrote an iOS app. Because this was back in the day when people were making millions of dollars off of stupid iOS.Michele Hansen  27:07  Yeah, I was coming up in that era. And I think the most we ever made was 400 bucks a month.Colleen Schnettler  27:13  Right? This was maybe 11 1011 years ago. So I wrote an iOS app. And, you know, totally taught from scratch, there was only like one tutorial site at the time, all of this other stuff, treehouse, and all this stuff didn't exist. There was this guy, I think his name is Ray wonderlic. He had this iOS. And this was before Swift. So this is like Objective C days. I wrote an iOS app. I got it in the App Store. I made $65. And I realized I could make money on the internet. And then I was like, oh, okay, there's something here. This iOS stuff, though, is not the path because not only would I have to learn Objective C, that's decent, I then would have to learn all of these other things about like, building and selling an iOS app. And that is way too overwhelming. In the beginning, trying to learn how to code and learn how to run a business, these are not the same skill set, like learning these at the same time, when you come from a baseline of zero, I do not think it's a good idea. I kind of feel like you should pick one or the other. So being technical minded, I picked learning to code. So I literally started listening to every inspirational learning to code podcast I could find. And in one of the podcast, it was one of those real tech bro guys who's like, you could do it kinda like Gary, Gary, what's his name? It wasn't Gary, what's his name, but it was someone like that. Who was like you can do it, you know, you can start internet business. All you got to do is learn Ruby on Rails. So I was like, cool. So I started, what was the resource Back then, I think I got a book on Ruby on Rails and started building some apps. And I'm still, you know, I'm doing this at night, right? Because I still have the kids, I have three little kids at home, or maybe two at the time, I guess I only have two at the time. And then from there, Women Who Code had a bounty bug program, so they would pay you $75 to solve issues. And this was like, tremendous for me, because the $75 that doesn't sound like a lot now. Right? That was huge. Because that could pay for babysitting for like, hour. Yeah. So I mean, it would take me under these things would take me like 15 hours, I had no idea what I was doing. I mean, like, but that was tremendous. For me also finding social groups, like I got involved in some open source. And the social groups are tremendous. And by social, I mean, you know, on Slack, and from there, and from there, I ended up getting a job as a Rails developer. So it felt like clawing my way through a path that did not exist is what it felt like, right? There was no like, as an engineer previously, it was like, go to college get a job. There was no you know, the path was very clear. Where's the path here? It was like I started contributing this open source. I got so overwhelmed. I just stopped And like six months later, one of the guys just reached out to me individually and said, Hey, I see you took this issue on six months ago and you haven't solved it. Do you need help? And I was like, Yes, I need all the help. Like, I am so confused. I didn't know what I'm doing. So that guy who don't know don't keep in touch with no idea where he is in the world, but like, he was tremendous in helping me not to quit. Isn't that amazing hack someone that youMichele Hansen  30:26  don't know, over the internet just like shows up and is like, Hello, can I help you? And then you don't even keep in touch with this person or know them. But they had this like, massive v here without this influence on your life?Colleen Schnettler  30:41  I should, I should hunt him down. Be like, Hey, remember me?Michele Hansen  30:48  It's amazing.Colleen Schnettler  30:49  Yeah, it is. It is amazing. But I also think like, to this point, to your friend's point, and to me, like trying to get help my sister figure out what she wants to do for remote business. There's no path. I mean, it's so hard because you don't know what to do. Like people can work hard, I think motivated people. Absolutely. There's so many people who could change their career trajectories, because people will work hard for what they want. But when you don't know which vector Yeah, you know which direction to apply the work. You just spin around in circles, like I would love for there to be a better way to help people start internet businesses, because from our perspective, having done this for like, you know, eight years now, or whatever, it's like, oh, you just do this thing? And no, if you don't know what to do, just start with something. It's so even, I mean, everything is hard in the beginning, right? Like, how do you send emails?Michele Hansen  31:45  Like I we still don't send emails, so I don't know if I like we technically have tools.Colleen Schnettler  31:53  I think you could think of like now that I'm talking to you about this, like a fully encompassing course, Oh, my gosh, great new idea. Here, were to build out aMichele Hansen  32:02  course or something for like, for your, you know, learn to code instead of selling leggings, like you like that. Like, like that is like I feel like that is your like life's mission is to help.Colleen Schnettler  32:13  I know, right? All about going down. But here's the thing is, this is kind of my life mission. Yeah, but But the thing that I think I thought I'd make a course to teach people how to be a Rails developer. The thing is, it's really hard to learn software, well, like it's not going to happen. And here's my new thought, Oh, my gosh, it's just coming to me, you're not gonna learn software? Well, in six months, especially if you have, you know, if you're working during the day, you're just not this is not, you're not going to become a good rails developer in six months. So originally, I thought, my way was to help people learn to code. But I think what makes more sense, is actually to help people learn using probably no code tools, how to build online businesses, because that more aligns with the demographic of people I'm trying to help. Not how to learn to code, but like, how do you like cuz, you know, the joke is, every military spouse is a photographer, it's like the most prevalent, it's a very prevalent occupation. But teach these help these people learn how to like, build a site and send emails and use a no code tools. So they can you know, accept payments on their website and like basic stuff, so that people who want online businesses can still pursue what their individual passion is, because I'm finding like, I push people to try learn to code, a lot of people don't want to learn to code that's not their jam.Michele Hansen  33:36  You know, it reminds me of the something we say a lot. And then the sort of jobs to be done world is that nobody wants a quarter inch drill. They want a quarter inch hole so they can put a nail in it so they can hang a picture on their wall, right? Like learning Ruby on Rails like is not the end goal. The end goal is hanging the picture on the wall, which is building the business.Colleen Schnettler  34:02  Right? And if you want to have a real business, you got to know how to use the internet'sMichele Hansen  34:10  how to use the internet. I think my university like nothing, I think I looked into like, like, oh, like, Can I take like an HTML or like, whatever, like class, and there was literally class that was like, This is the internet, you will learn how to use a browser and I was like, and then then, and then everything else was like C Programming. I was like, This is not looking good. LikeColleen Schnettler  34:34  Yeah, Michelle. Think about this, though. You're absolutely right. Like, I approached it incorrectly thinking oh, I need to teach the world how to code. Well doesn't want to learn how to code world wants to make money doing something they're already passionate about, whether that is selling something they make or whether that is being a photographer or you know, running a home catering business. But that's what we could do. We could To help teach people how I mean, you could have a course. Okay, I have to learn I'm sure you know, no code. That's the whole point is it's not that painful, right? You could have a course that basically walked someone through how to use no code tools to set up a website where you can do things like accept money, and do things like send automated emails. Dude,Michele Hansen  35:23  Do either of us know how to use the new code stuff?Colleen Schnettler  35:27  No. Okay. But yeah,Unknown Speaker  35:29  I mean, we don't have time right now.Michele Hansen  35:31  When we put ourselves through, which is how to use No, you know, what I just realized? Is that like, you came into this conversation, like fired up, and then somehow you were even more fired up right now. And I didn't think that was possible.Colleen Schnettler  35:47  I love this though. I feel like I'm adding shalon Pauline University. We don't have time for it now. But we're so first social University. Oh, my gosh, that's coming.Michele Hansen  36:02  Um, well, before we get more, you know, ideas out there. Maybe we should wrap up also, for apparently a lot of people listen to this podcast while running. And I have been tagged in the fact that we're usually around 30 minutes is like people like great, I can go out and like, I know how long of a run that is. So we're already five minutes over, we usually plan for it. So.Colleen Schnettler  36:26  Alright, guys, it's because of all my great ideas. Well, IMichele Hansen  36:29  so I will see you in two weeks. So yes, yes, I will be drinking started wandering through target next week. So but I know Colleen has exciting plans and then we'll we'll talk to you later.

Send Cam some love and support! https://twitter.com/SloanCamCheck out Hopscotch: https://hopscotch.club/ Michele Hansen  0:01  This episode of Software Social is brought to you by Reform.As a business owner, you need forms all the time for lead capture, user feedback, SaaS onboarding, job applications, early access signups, and many other types of forms.Here's how Reform is different:- Your brand shines through, not Reform's- It's accessible out-of-the-box... And there are no silly design gimmicks, like frustrating customers by only showing one question at a timeJoin indie businesses like Fathom Analytics and SavvyCal and try out Reform.Software Social listeners get 1 month for free by going to reform.app/social and using the promo code "social" on checkout.Michele Hansen  0:01  So today, I'm so excited we have a friend joining us, Cam Sloane. Hello, Cam. So we invited you on today because you had tweeted the other day about how you're kind of feeling stuck right now. And we're like, you know what? Maybe we like we can chat about it and help you get unstuck.Cam Sloan  1:17  Yeah, that was, I guess, shout out to Aaron Francis, who kind of like just was like, Hey, bring him on. And, and I was like, Yeah, let's do it. That'd be awesome. And I think that, you know, just speaking that tweet, it really seemed to resonate with a lot of other people, like other founders who are trying to do this. And because I had an outpouring of, you know, comments and support, and DMS, from people I don't know, and people that I do know and invite stuff like this show and stuff to just like, it's amazing, the community that has reached out to kind of say, like, well, all sorts of things I'm sure we'll get into today. So it's been really nice to it's always nice to have that because sometimes you're just going at this and you feel like super alone. So for context, I just feel kind of stuck in like, you know, do I keep going do I switch to something else? Or do I? You know, yeah, like, I've contemplated like just doing contract work. And you know, just make money that way, because it's a bit easier. So all sorts of stuff that is going through my head over the past few months? Because it's just slow, slow going.Colleen Schnettler  2:32  Yeah, Cam to get us started. Could you give us a little background about your product? And how long you've been working on it?Cam Sloan  2:40  Yeah, definitely. That would be helpful for listeners. So yeah, I am working on hopscotch. It's a user onboarding tool, specifically focusing on product tours, and kind of in app messaging and guides to kind of, you know, when a user signs up for your product, sometimes you want to kind of hold their hand a bit to show them what their next step should be, in order to help prevent them from churning by actually showing them to the thing that they want to do. And so yeah, I mean, product tours, to be honest, like, it's not the right fit for every every business. But sometimes, there are really good use cases, like if you have a complex product that has, like you get in like a CRM, or like an analytics tool that has like 10 options on the top menu and 10 on the side, and your users just get dumped, or, you know, Landon, this page with no idea what to do next, then a really good way to show them is to guide them, you know, and kind of say, you know, here's, here's what your next step should be, so that you can see value out of the product. So I've been working on this for, I mean, about a year since the inception of like, actually like the idea, but really kind of steadily since January of this year in 2021. And kind of focusing most of my time on it. Because outside of that I do freelancing contract work for you know, larger companies just doing web development work for them. And that kind of helps me to stay self funded to do my projects like this and, and hopefully grow my own software business.Michele Hansen  4:28  Yeah, so. So I kind of want to propose a structure for this conversation. So I've mentioned a little bit in my book, how the sort of core questions that you're trying to answer when you talk to a customer can also be used when maybe you're helping somebody think through something, which are what are they trying to do overall? Why? What are the steps in that process they're going through what if they already Tried, and where are they stuck? And so I feel like you've kind of you've started to give us a little bit of overview on the what you're trying to do. And why. I'm curious what led you to be interested in building an onboarding tool?Cam Sloan  5:23  Yeah. So the, you know, like, as I don't know, if you did this as well, when you were coming up with, you know, what business to go into you like make a list, you're trying to make a list of ideas, and like, most of them are pretty terrible. And, like, I had maybe 50 ideas. And this was kind of one of them that I didn't really think too much about until I actually I met someone who I, who wanted to hire me to build to work on their software company, and just doing web development for them. And we actually ended up, I didn't work for him, it wasn't the right fit for taking on that contract. But we ended up like really getting along well, kind of both having founder ambitions. And he was almost like, in the position that I'm at right now where he was feeling a bit stuck. And so we ended up saying, Hey, we should like try and work on something together. And, and we were thrown, like, what ideas have you been having, and, and we both checked kind of our lists. And, and this was one of them. So for him, he was actually experiencing, like, the pain point more than I had previously. So really, he was searching around for tools. And like came across intercom product tours and other app cues and realizing like, you know, he's a bootstrap founder cannot justify the price at like, $300 plus a month, and was looking for a tool that was maybe affordable that that could get them up and running. And we kind of ran with that together. In like, just real quick summary. Like he ended up going and building another business. So I kept going on hopscotch. And, yeah, like, as soon as I dove into the problem, like I really enjoyed it, both technically, because like you're you're kind of embedding your yourself into another SAS product by default, like by the definition of what these tools do. And so there's a lot of like, really interesting technical learnings that I've had to had to go through with that, like anytime you're dealing with like widget, embed scripts and other people's code, it's, it's a lot of interesting stuff on the technical side. But then also just realizing like that, there's a lot of interesting stuff in the human and business side of this as well. Like, I started soaking in resources from Samuel Kulik, and like the user less team and, you know, anywhere that I could find people who are talking about onboarding and realizing like how crucial it can be to a business's success. Because, you know, if you can reduce that initial churn in the first month or two, then then it can have a wild impact on the like, lifetime value of customers and how your product retains users. And so it just kept me interested From then on, which is why I didn't like end up going work on something else. After, after he, like my co founder went to do something else.Michele Hansen  8:23  So let's talk a little bit about where you are now. So you launched in April. Is that right?Cam Sloan  8:30  or me? Yeah. So I think so. Time is a blur? Yeah, like I because I've kind of been doing, like, I did a lot of stuff with early access of just onboarding one on one, like people who are signing up for the early access list. And at one point, I kind of let people sign up on their own, which April sounds, it might be even a bit early, it might have been just a couple months ago that I finally made it so that people could self sign up. And so, yeah, I think a lot of the customers I was speaking to back in April, and May and June, like I was kind of doing just they would express interest, find the landing page, and then we would jump on a demo call. And and some of them would, you know, try the product, others would just kind of like ghost off and and so that's kind of where, yeah, like I probably had about 40 conversations, demo calls and stuff. And you know, I'm setting with just a handful of like really just one main customer that is like paying me and has the product installed. And I've like kind of done a white glove service to help them get up and running with it. And then I have a couple like I don't know, like almost just like friends and family supporters or like people who have like paid but not activated. And so I don't like really even count towards the bottom line. They're like There's not a lot that I can gain from, from them, except they're $20 a month.Michele Hansen  10:07  So, what's your revenue out? Right now? If you're comfortable saying that,Cam Sloan  10:11  yeah, I'm at like 150 MRRMichele Hansen  10:14  and what are your expenses to keep it running?Cam Sloan  10:18  A pretty low. Yeah, like, I'm paying like 20 bucks a month for server costs and, and then it's really just a matter of like, I am trying to pay, you know, just paying my rent and stuff out of savings. And like all of that I have, like, the way that I kind of manage my cash flow there is just by doing a certain amount of freelance per year and then saying, I have to make this much. And then that kind of floats me on that side of things. And so yeah, it's it's like really quite inexpensive to keep it operating like this. But I have thought, like, I have quite a bit of cash in the business bank account from doing the contract and freelancing. There's about 100 and 120k. there that is kind of, you know, just setting as runway, but I have also considered like, should I be deploying this more effectively? Like, if I'm ready to work on this business? Like, which, I guess is a big question mark, like, do I keep going or not? But like, do I want to invest more in, I don't know, maybe trying some ads, or trying to hire someone to help with the content and things that I'm not doing. So hopefully, that gives a bit of a picture of the financials and stuff.Colleen Schnettler  11:38  Can we go back to the 40 onboarding calls you did? and talk a little bit more about that? I'm really curious. So you actually got on the phone with 40 people who organically reached out to you?Cam Sloan  11:51  Yeah, I would say, you know, somewhere in that range, because I had about 100 people on my, like, early access list. Well, this was over the course of several months. And so as they were joining, I would kind of do the playbook of like, you know, as soon as they sign up, or maybe a day or two later, sometimes depending how much like I was working on product, or if I was in learning mode at the time, I would, you know, jump onto calls with them, I did come out with like, a really early version of this product and sent it to like a handful of customers, and then you know, got feedback, like, oh, but it doesn't do this. And so I go back to product mode and, and rebuild and say like, here we go. But then, you know, maybe there were other other issues that it wasn't solving, like a huge part of that just felt like, maybe it wasn't a huge pain point. Because I actually went back to a lot of these, like, people and I plan to go back and even speak to, like, send some more follow up emails, because just this week, I sent about five or six of them. So yeah, where I guess I'm, I've been speaking with, you know, quite a few customers that would be requesting these features. And then I would, you know, go off take maybe a week or whatever it took to go and build the smallest version of that come back. And, and sometimes that was not really enough for they would just kind of ghost at that point. And, and just, you know, it. I know, it felt like the right thing to be it felt like the right approach and like learn from the people who are going to be our customers and you know, go build what they asked for. But then, but then didn't really see results from it, I do think still like most of what they requested and was like super reasonable and like did improve the product to where it is. Today, like where I think that people signing up today like have a much more useful product because it can do you know, an example of that would be like segmenting your product tours to only show certain ones to certain demographics of users. Like if you have a new user that is, I don't know, an agency versus a small business owner, they may have more, they might have a better understanding of tooling in general. And so they you would just show a different thing. So you want to do segmenting within the app. And so that was something that I really do feel helped with making the product better, but then yeah, it still didn't like end up driving those conversions in the way that I was hoping for.Michele Hansen  14:29  Yeah. Did any of those people you talked like you said those were onboarding calls so had those people paid for the product?Cam Sloan  14:37  And maybe I just like misspoke. It was more like demo calls I guess of like, you know, just people who had signed up for they would sign up for fill out the Early Access form. Tell me about like their use case. And then I would go and speak with them but you know, to be also just like, I don't know, just Be critical on that point. It's like a lot of these people who are signing up probably, were just following my journey of me building in public on Twitter and like, may not be like the ideal customer profile, either I have found that like, initially I thought hopscotch might be a great use are a great fit for, like, really small companies like originally was targeting like other solo founders, indie hacker types that, like, you know, to get them a tool that they could afford that they could use for doing onboarding, but really, like, you're not feeling the pains yet of having to manually onboard like hundreds of customers at that scale. And so where I'm now more leaning towards is like trying to target more companies that are kind of in the I don't know, maybe like two to three employee to 10 Plus, like 1015 employees, so they still, like feel the pains of like, apt uses too expensive, but they actually have like employees and revenue, and are probably feeling some of the customer, some of the pains of trying to manually onboard so many users. So I think it has, like, these conversations have been helpful to like, guide me slowly to where I need to be. It's, it's just slow moving still. And like, now I don't see as many people filling that pipeline by default, because I'm not really tweeting a lot. And so it's like, Okay, I got to go and like, chase my, you know, hunt my food, for lack of a better term, and like, go and, you know, either do some, you know, founder sales, like going and prospecting and doing cold outreach, or, you know, trying to work the SEO game. And, and this is kind of like, where I fall and get a little bit stuck of like, not knowing the next best steps, because they're, like, so many ways that I could go with this. And none of them show like immediate returns. And so and so I kind of get a little bit deflated, even, like, if you spend a week writing out two or three articles, or, you know, Docs or blog post type things, or like you go and fill out a bunch of Korra answers. And then there's not necessarily going to be immediate returns, these things kind of prove themselves over like 612 months. And and that can just be hard compared to I don't know, I'm sure you both can really have like, you know, going in coding a feature. And then you see that returns, like it works right there. So yeah, it's just, I feel like that's been the tricky part of where I'm at now.Michele Hansen  17:32  Yeah, it can be really hard when you're at the point of making content investments, and you know, that it's gonna take months or years to pay off. But, like, investing in general, like, my head waiting for that payoff, and being patient is so hard.Cam Sloan  17:54  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think that's what, like, I noticed yesterday with so many founders resonating on the same points, and some of them getting through to the other side was really inspirational like to read about and hear that, like, yeah, they just, you know, keep, there's like an element of keep plugging away. But there's also like, you can keep plugging away doing the wrong thing, forever. And, and I am like, really trying to like, since day one, I've tried to avoid like sinking many years into a startup that's not going to ever see traction. And I've always been like, at a certain point, I just want to have like a cut off trigger, like wearing like a kill switch, where I'm like, if I'm not making this much MRR that or you know, have this much act like engagement in the product, then like, I should maybe switch to something that is a bit easier to get people activated. I'm still not convinced that that's not true. Like, there's been a lot of encouragement to just keep going. But I do think that this is a bit of a slow moving industry, it may be a bit more of a vitamin versus painkiller type of thing in for some people, or at least that's the way they see it. Because when I reach back out to some of those leads, and asked, you know, how did you end up solving this problem? Like, which competitor? Did you end up going with? They like, so far the answers have been nothing like we are still like just thinking about this problem. And we'd be happy to you know, some of them are like, Yeah, let's do another demo call or let's do another, you know, something like let's talk about it again and reopen the conversation. And that's since April, however many months that is like five months or something like going by without actually moving on the problem. And so that could be just the again, the customer like that type of customer or it could just be the way that people buy in the space. It's a bit of You know, kind of, it's one of those things that's like sitting in the background, we should improve user onboarding, but then a lot of people don't because like, but they don't really realize that there's like this whole element of churn and like, and like, the bottom line is so closely tied to user onboarding, and improving that experience, that there's a disconnect there. So.Michele Hansen  20:25  So let's talk for a second about what is working. I'm really curious about this customer that you have at $99 a month, you said, and I have a couple of questions about them. First of all, is this somebody who knew you from Twitter? Or is this as our friend, Mike buckbee calls and I believe I quoted him on this last week. And Mike, you're getting quoted again this week? stranger money. So good.Cam Sloan  20:54  I think it's like I it stranger money, like I know this person. Yeah. Okay. And I don't remember exactly how they like came into the waiting list, but they did like, stumble on there. But they were really looking for like, yeah, some managed service, kind of white glove service there. So I've been helping a lot to do the implementation and planning there, as well, which is important to know, it's like, not just by my SAS, like, pay me 99 a month, it's like quite a bit of hands on work for for it as well.Colleen Schnettler  21:27  Oh, that's interesting. IMichele Hansen  21:27  noticed. Yeah. And I noticed in the end, all the people kind of chiming in on the thread and offering support and advice and whatnot, that I'm Jesse from bento jumped in. And he made the suggestion, I'm just gonna read it, throw a managed account offering 899 and see how many deals you can close with that I have a feeling many people would rather you do everything for them versus do DIY, at 49 to 99. It was a huge unlock when we were stagnant at bento, so much learning. And I was curious about your thoughts on that?Cam Sloan  22:04  Yeah, I mean, I can see a lot of value in that approach, because you're learning about the problem by actually implementing but you know, trying to solve it for them as almost like putting yourself in the consultants, shoes, I guess, part of like, part of even why I've been, I don't know, like, it's kind of been draining to do that a bit from this other for this customer. But again, I'm only charging 99 a month. And so there's not like the return on on all those hours invested. But it has proven to give me some better learning and understanding of like, how people want to think through this problem, and how to solve it for them. Yeah, and I do think like, yeah, if I'm gonna be justifying outbound sales, if that's like long term approach to this business, then you need to put a higher price point on it, which like kind of goes and partially removes, like, why I started this business in the first place, which is like to make a lower cost solution that like, you know, can be more affordable for people to get into. So yeah, it's been a bit. Like, I like the idea. And then I just don't know that I want to run that kind of business long term of like having to basically do a productized service.Colleen Schnettler  23:29  So what I'm trying to understand with this one client that you have is the time you're spending with them. Is that making it more hands off in the future? Like, are you working on integration pieces that makes them like kind of will streamline it for your future clients?Cam Sloan  23:46  Yeah, like, for us, a lot of this has been for learnings like I kind of agreed to take it on, so that I could, you know, write some better documentation out of it, like, realize what questions they have been having in the process and what we need to do to implement. So it will both be like product improvements that come out of it, you know, like just yeah, tweaks to the product, when I'm implementing for them. But also, oh, what questions Am I asking the client? And and then turning those into like help Docs or articles that maybe can help other people get up and running? Like, what do I need? What information do I need about my customer to like, make a product tour that is going to be effective? Or what do I need to know about my product and the like, audience that I'm serving to, to know if I need to implement a product or not. So I'm taking kind of those notes along the way, using it as a learning opportunity. Hence, not really like charging a premium. I was kind of just like, well, I get to learn a lot from this experience as well. But the I did say like after this initial implementation, I'm handing this back off to you and your team will have to run with it. So it's yeah I'm not like signing on for a forever job at 99 a month. And I Deeley not doing that for each customer. Yeah.Colleen Schnettler  25:08  So does this customer fit into your theory that you need to go after slightly bigger companies? Two to three, what do you say three to 10? employees with pretty significant revenue?Cam Sloan  25:19  Yeah, I would say they operate mostly like with, yeah, contractors and freelancers helping them out, but they are Yeah, kind of in that range of company size. Definitely not the, you know, initial indie hacker audience, which I think Yeah, like, is an easy thing to learn, like we like, like, indie hackers don't have a ton of capital to be throwing at tools, and they would rather go build things themselves or spend like, a week like, making their own solutions. And, and it doesn't, yeah, it's just I think not having the access to the capital is like, is a big challenge there. So yeah, I've definitely learned to like, a bit about Yeah, maybe I should follow this. larger company size, at least, that's kind of where I'm at. Like, I don't know, if I want to, I don't know if maybe that ideal customer is actually a bit bigger than even what I said, maybe it's, you know, 20 plus employees. I've definitely had some companies reach out that were like 500 employees, but they tend to have much larger expectations, like, want to do NPS scores, they want to do surveys through these tools, they want to have the tours, they want to do checklist, like there's a lot of product gap, like there's a lot of big gap in what the product offers now that they kind of want a whole suite, because they're kind of nearing on like, enterprise, or like really like the larger business. So I'm trying to, like fit into this kind of smaller area where people might not have like such high expectations or like needs out of a product. And really, they're just trying to focus on this one part, which is like activation. And they can use another tool if they need to do like, survey and feedback type of stuff.Michele Hansen  27:09  Like our sponsor this month reform, for example. Love it. There we go, Peter, um, I'm interested. So you mentioned you know, you have other customers who are mostly sort of friends and family and like, indie hacker money, and as you've kind of alluded to, basically this sort of irony of, you know, indie hacker world is basically that usually, we're like, we're not very good customers for each other, for the most part. But a very good peer group community. But I'm curious, this 99 a month customer, you did 30 demo calls, you probably learned a lot about what people were trying to solve within onboarding, like what their products were like, and, you know, these things about company size, and the sort of sort of corporate demographic questions basically, but also the activity they're trying to solve and, and how complicated their products are, and and what the, you know, basically, what the cost is to them of having a poorly on boarded user. And so I'm kind of curious, like, Do you notice any differences in the kind of product or those sort of goals or whatnot, that your $99 a month customer is trying to do? That those other customers are not, that might be a clue for you on the sort of customer that you should focus on from a sort of activity based perspective?Cam Sloan  28:55  Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, yeah, the biggest learning I've had there is, you know, when you go into their product, there are multiple use cases for it, you may sign up for one thing or another, like you're not necessarily doing. It's not like hopscotch where you come in, and the single thing that you would like, use this product towards, but you come in, and there's a suite of products. And so when you have like this complex product that has multiple offerings, then you may want to guide the user to the next step. A good example of this would be like wave accounting software, but they also do so they have like, receipt tracking, they have employee like compensation, and they have invoices and all these things. And maybe you sign up and you only want one of those things like you may not need to know about every single part of that product and you may feel a bit overwhelmed when you come into a dashboard that has like 10 different options. Like completely different use cases. And that's where I'm finding that there's some, some good opportunity there to help, like with a product tour. And so for example, like this customer that I've on boarded, part of what we did is hooking to their onboarding survey to say, like, What are you trying to do with this product, which I think is really helpful for them segmenting what you're going to show them in a tour. And so, you know, if there so it's like an SEO platform, I won't get into too much more, I don't want to like, you know, just yeah,Michele Hansen  30:37  that's fine. Yeah. But it's a it's a, it's a product that has basically multiple, different products within it that somebody has purchased. And maybe they know they need one of those but and they don't know what these other things are, that they're either they are paying for or the company would like them to start paying for. And so the value that you're providing to them in this in this case, is basically helping to introduce the customer to these other products and reduce, reduce sort of overwhelm that the customer might be feeling about coming into a complicated product. And the other the friends and family product, like those ones, were they more like single products without multiple products within them.Cam Sloan  31:26  Yeah, yeah, more like single products, and actually just a quite a slight tweak on on the other one, because like, what users will actually do is come into this product, they'll sign up, and then they are, they may know what they want to do. But because there are so many options, they don't know what the next step would be to get to it. So instead of showing them the other options that they don't need, I'm actually guiding them more towards the one that they signed up and expressed interest for. So if they say like I need, you know, I'm interested in link building, whereas this other person might be interested in local SEO, then you want to guide them to that next part of the product that's going to be relevant to that so that they can take the next steps and see value out of the product there. And then going to your other point of introducing them to the other parts, like that is a great thing to do, like over time as people use like one part of the product, and then they come back to it, you can kind of use progressive disclosure to show things over time, Hey, did you know about this feature, hey, this, like, you know, and kind of like when you have software like figma, that maybe gives you a tip every week or something? And it's just like, Oh, I didn't know I could do that. But like, it kind of does some feature discovery is what it's called. And you can help users discover new features or features that they are not actively using. So So yeah, those are a couple use cases that that customers is using. SoColleen Schnettler  32:52  ultimately, your product is about user retention, that's the value you're providing to your customer.Cam Sloan  32:59  Yeah, I would say, kind of on the activation side, as well, where you're really trying to get them from, like, there's there's a couple elements, you know, but the very first, like the core part of the star is getting them activated and getting them to take that next step once they come into your product that's going to help them to get to the outcome that they want and what and so asking yourself, what is the like, what is the thing that your customer is coming in here to do, and then making sure that you can guide them right to that next step is like, is crucial. And so that that is more in like the activation world, and then retention, it can play a role in as well. But because if you don't activate them, they're not going to stick around as well. But yeah, there are also some other things that you could do like email drip campaigns. And like, yeah, like kind of knowledge draw, like kind of an email campaign that educates your users on how to do what they want to do. Like it makes us really well with that to kind of retain them. Yeah.Colleen Schnettler  34:06  Right. So ultimately, though, when you say activation they've presumably like if I'm a user, I've already signed up for someone service because I wanted so when you sell it to the person I'm you know, assigned up with, you're selling it as we will reduce your churn, because they need to activate because if they don't activate, they're going to churn because they're not going to see value. Okay.Cam Sloan  34:27  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's definitely like tied into that, I guess. You know, there are just some tools like I forget as it turnkey, is like one that is like specifically focused on like, the customers who are maybe about to churn out and then keeping them around or giving them offers. So this is like primarily, I guess there because there's a spectrum of like, you know, from activation to like retention that you may find custom like that you want to focus on within that whole experience, but yeah, but Like, it all kind of adds up, it all plays really like, together in, in giving a good experience to users that's gonna keep them around. And yeah, you're right like to really what I want to do is like help help my customers to show the value of the product to keep their customers around and get them, you know, activated and using it, versus maybe getting dropped into a product that is just so overwhelming, like Michelle said earlier where they don't know what the next steps should be. Yeah, I feel like that's, that's pretty much it.Michele Hansen  35:39  So I used to work on a couple of products that had that we actually used hopscotch style tours for. And basically, the reason why we use to hopscotch it was I think we use a survey that then directed them into the proper hopscotch sequence was because the products were incredibly complicated. And we had limited ability to make those products less complicated. So it was a very painful problem for me as a product manager, who was tasked with driving retention metrics, but could not solve the foundational problems. And so we use hopscotch as a way to try to like, basically overcome the fact that the product is complicated. And kind of thinking about that, and thinking about what Colleen just said, of like, you know, what is the pain that you are solving for people, I just pulled up your website, and nudge your users to the aha moment. I like it, it's positive. But if you show that to me, when I was a product manager, you know, five or six years ago, that would not have been the problem I would have expressed to you. Right, like, reduce your churn, like, you know, your product is complicated. Your users don't have to be overwhelmed, like get them through it virt more trial, that type of thing, convert more trials, like what is that goal that someone is trying to drive that relates to what you're solving, or that's reducing churn, increasing activation, like, you know, stop losing users, because they're confused. Like, that's the problem. you're solving that people have value in their products, but because for whatever reason, whether those reasons are in their control or not, the products are complicated. And their users are, you know, their users thought there was value in it, but then they get to it, and they can't get the value back. And so like there's this mismatch, and speak to the pain, I'm not like, I'm not seeing I'm not seeing pain on your landing page.Cam Sloan  38:04  Yeah, I think in that the h1 doesn't fully address it. It's something that Yeah, like, the thread yesterday, and everyone reaching out after like, definitely gave me so many ideas of like, where to go, and what to focus on improving for hopscotch. Like, there's a lot. There's a lot, it's not like, I'm coming here, and like, I'm all out of ideas now. Like, there's nothing more that can be done. Like, there's so much more that could be done to improve the state. And so it's been like, what do I choose from that? But that's a pretty like, yeah, a no brainer, is like the positioning of it, and kind of better. Focusing on the outcomes. I think you're like, absolutely, right there. I have, like, let's see, I, because there were, I don't know, 20 people that sent me, like, it was so great yesterday, like 20 people sent me DMS, and like, had like, great conversations with some other founders. And then and then I had some other people that kind of just commented and offered their suggestions as well. And I've been trying to just, like, go through that and, like make a list of like points of like, what I could explore and take away from that, like so that it's not all just like me airing my grievances and Twitter, which actually like go and take something away from from it. And, you know, there there was, I guess some of the pieces in there include, like, what you just said is like really like, you know, you should be focusing on the outcomes more like and someone suggested like, you know, increased child conversions, improved feature adoption. And so there's more that I could do to like really? Yeah, like reduce churn to make that clear. I think there's a positioning element and and just like communication element that could be improved upon. There's also just like, number of people aren't are not coming through like there's not enough people that are Coming through my site and through the signup flow to even make, like, great. I don't know, decisions based on like data driven decisions, you know, it's if I, if we're picking it into this, like one or two customers kind of thing, it's like you need more people trying this, you need more people activating. And so finding ways that I can do that through, you know, people have given some great recommendations of like, how I can go ahead and like build like a sales campaign, or use AdWords and SEO tactics to kind of like, grow this, I guess a lot of it ends up like there's a ton of things that I have taken from that. From from that thread of like, good ideas, and now it's like deciding which things that I can do. And I think it will come down to like evaluating which are the easy ones that I can like make changes to right now really quickly like this, on a playing with the communication and wording on the on the site. And then some of it will be more like long term investment. Other things might be more immediate, like running some AdWords tests, like $10 a day and just like trying out some different headlines to see what grabs people and then using the learnings from that to maybe further update, like what my content game will be, or what my you know, what my wording on the website should be like, based on what people click on those ads has, like it's been, it's been really nice to get some of that information. And then and then other people even mentioned about the pricing, maybe not being accessible. But again, I have to take that with a grain of salt. But there's, you know, people who are saying the jump from a free tier to $50 a month, and then $100 a month is too large. And so maybe there could be a price in between that, that becomes more accessible if I am trying to target like, smaller businesses as well. And then there's like the other advice, which is go and add a price deer on the other side, that is like $800 a month and you know, do manage services. So that's Yeah, there's just been almost it's been overwhelming, like, get all this new knowledge and information overnight.Michele Hansen  42:25  It totally makes sense that you're, you're you're swimming in ideas right now. And, yeah, I sort of just added one to that pile there. And I always I'm almost reminded of kind of the situation that Coleen was in after she first started doing user interviews where like, there was like, so many ideas coming at her from customers, and she was having so many ideas. And then it was like, where do I go from here?Cam Sloan  43:04  Yeah, I remember hearing like those episodes. And when you did, like the live, you know, customer call, where Michelle interviewed your customer. And and then yeah, a lot of trying to figure out what the next step should be. It does feel a lot like that. Like, there's so many paths to go down. What's the right one? And I think, you know, a big part of it has even just been like, does it make sense to keep going down pass like down these paths at all, or try some, like, again, like, try a whole new thing. And I think that's why I was like, was then maybe am scared to even go forward with some of this stuff is like, does it make sense to keep investing the time in, in what I'm building now? if, you know, is it gonna help me see returns in a year or two years time, versus switching to something else? It seems like a lot of people think that it's definitely a good idea to keep going. And, and so I'm leaning towards that, I still think I want to have like, some kill switch, like, you know, to avoid running three years without any revenue kind of thing. And I need to see some positive signals at some point. But yeah, that's kind of kind of where I'm at. But it has given me a bit more hope of like, this is a normal feeling cam like you are allowed to feel deflated, you're allowed to feel like you don't have like, you don't aren't great at sales and marketing just by default, you know, you have to work towards those and put a lot of work in and so it's okay to feel like this and it's okay to like. Like, it's not just that the product is bad or that the market isn't there. It's just this is a part of the process. So just coming to terms with that. has been really helpful over the past day and gives me a bit more. I don't know, just like, like, a bit more of my like, desire to keep going.Colleen Schnettler  45:13  Alex Hellman has a great article on this. It's about, it's about all of the developers who take his course and how when they get to the marketing course, they all freak out. Because when someone is excellent in their field, starting over is so hard. So there's a lot of things I feel like I heard you say today, and one of them, is it, I wanted to ask you, is it that you just don't want to do marketing? Because you're convinced it's going to fail? Or, I mean, what what is your thought, like, all of this? Or do you feel like you should be making more revenue now and you're frustrated? And that's where this is coming from?Cam Sloan  45:53  I think, you know, I think that it's like it's a mix of like, Yeah, well, the marketing, see fruits at the end of like, of all that investment, because because just you know, going through 4050 calls and and then only coming out with like one customer that I'm basically doing it all for them at the end, like is that the type of business that I want to be growing? Like, do I want to do a sales driven and like hands on business versus something more like, you know, seeing what Peter has done with reform of like, really, people are signing up and get going themselves, maybe you have to have like higher numbers, but like, it's more. I don't know, like, it's, it lends itself better to self signup, and self serve, where you can do a bit more product lead, you still have to do marketing, but like, the way that the business operates, is not like hiring a sales team. It's investing in content and other other parts of the business, which is more maybe the type of business so it's been that like, question mark, about the business in general? Like, is that kind of where I want to go with it? And, yeah, I mean, there are all sorts of fears in there. I think a lot of it is also just a fear of like, yeah, it like, do I know what I'm doing. And I actually, I worked in marketing for five years, believe it or not as, like, scary as like, I worked in music marketing, for concerts, it was a much different thing. And this was like, six or so years ago. And so it's a much different beast, but then SAS marketing. But yeah, like, even with that experience, it's still just scary to go out on your own. And like, I don't know, just feel you feel back at square one again. So yeah.Michele Hansen  47:39  Yeah, I mean, towards us that I think that's a totally normal feeling. And this feeling of like struggling and like, this isn't working. And then also you get some more ideas. And you're like, Okay, wait, where? Where do I go? Like, what do I do next? And, you know, I noticed, like, you posted that thread. And I'm guessing that you woke up that morning, not not feeling so great. Yeah, you're right. And I wonder how you felt waking up this morning. After getting all of that support,Cam Sloan  48:19  today has been much different, like it's been, it's always like, Man, it's so amazing to see that people are gonna be there to lift you up when you're like feeling a bit down, I think. I don't know. I've had I've, like, wrote tweets like that, and then deleted them because like, it's very personal and just like very open and you know, you're like, our potential customers gonna read this think less of me for like, running a business then not knowing what I'm doing. You know, there's all all sorts of like, fear in that. And what I'm realizing is, like, there's been a lot of appreciation for this open approach. So I, I wake up the next day with like, just feeling very grateful to have like that, knowing that maybe I need to, like, yeah, rely on community more and maybe get more involved with like, talking to other founders a bit and ideating with them, because working alone is very challenging to like, be in your own head all the time and see, you know, things moving so slowly. But yeah, at the same time, like the next day, having 100 people reach out and I'll give you like many ideas has been overwhelming at the same time. For like, what to do next. But I guess like the core of what my challenge was, or is is not so much like what to do next, because all of these ideas, I'll put them in a list and work through them one by one. That's the only way to get things done. It's like one thing at a time. But yeah, just like knowing it's more figuring out, like the conviction around like Emma is this the type of business I want to keep working Because in a couple years, the efforts hopefully will, yeah, show fruits for the labor. And then also I keep using that term, which I've never used before. Like, I don't know why everything's bearing fruits today, but but you know, like that kind of thing of just like, really? Like, will this be the business that I want to build? And I'm making sure that I'm doing that. And I think that's been a big part of the fear that I have of, of moving forward. So I don't have an answer to that yet. But I do have a lot of people who have been like really kind of offering advice. And so I think there's still some chewing on this idea to be done. Yeah.Michele Hansen  50:39  And I think that question of, is this the business I want to build? I think that's that's a question that only you can answer.Cam Sloan  50:48  Exactly. Yeah. I've i that is one thing I've noticed, like as much advice as you soak in or people give you, you know, they could all be right, like in their own ways, but then it comes down to like a deeply personal decision on like, what, like how you want to approach things. So T, B, D.Michele Hansen  51:10  I guess that's a good point for us to wrap up today. Cam. Thank you so much for your vulnerability, both here. And on Twitter. You know, I'm reminded of something I heard. Nicole Baldy new co founder of webinar ninja say on her podcast recently, Nicole and Kate can relate, which is true vulnerability is when there is personal risk involved. And I think your tweet and thread about that really shows like there was that risk involved, and you took it and and people jumped in to help. And I think that's what's so amazing about our community. But so I encourage people to follow along with cam. You are at Sloan cam on Twitter. Your product is hopscotch dot club. Thank you so much for coming on cam.Cam Sloan  52:14  Thank you both for having me. It was such a pleasure. I love the podcast. And you know, I'm always listening and tuning in and love following along your stories, because it's really it's encouraging as well to just you know, hear what you're both, you know, working on and so that always helps me feel a little less like it's just me and having, you know, some help on the way. So thanks so much.Michele Hansen  52:39  All right. Well, Colleen, talk to you next week.Colleen Schnettler  52:42  Bye.

Listen to the latest from Michele's podcast book tour! Searching for SaaS: https://searchingforsaas.com/podcast/ep25-local-restaurant-app-to-geocoding-as-a-service-michele-hansen-from-geocodio/One Knight In Product: https://www.oneknightinproduct.com/michele-hansen/Indie Hackers: https://www.indiehackers.com/podcast/224-michele-hansenMichele Hansen  0:01  This episode of Software Social is brought to you by Reform.As a business owner, you need forms all the time for lead capture, user feedback, SaaS onboarding, job applications, early access signups, and many other types of forms.Here's how Reform is different:- Your brand shines through, not Reform's- It's accessible out-of-the-box... And there are no silly design gimmicks, like frustrating customers by only showing one question at a timeJoin indie businesses like Fathom Analytics and SavvyCal and try out Reform.Software Social listeners get 1 month for free by going to reform.app/social and using the promo code "social" on checkout.Hey, Colleen,Colleen Schnettler  0:51  hey, Michelle.Michele Hansen  0:54  How are you?Colleen Schnettler  0:56  I'm good. I'm good. How about you?Michele Hansen  0:58  How goes week three now of doing Hammerstone and simple file upload.Colleen Schnettler  1:08  It's going well, today, I'm going to dedicate most of the day to simple file uploads. So I'm pretty excited about that. I'm finally back into my theoretical four days client work one day, my own thing and never really works out that way. Because I make myself way too available. But I have a lot of plans. But I do want to talk to you about something. Okay. I am I have not had any new signups in six weeks. Oh, yeah. I mean, I'm not in the pit of despair, because I'm just generally pretty happy about everything else. But I haven't been really on top of I know, six weeks. Right. That's really. I mean, IMichele Hansen  1:54  I hate to say it, but that does give me a little bit of like trough of sorrow vibes.Colleen Schnettler  1:58  Yeah. I mean, I honestly, I hadn't even really noticed, which is a different a different thing. Has anybody been canceled? I don't know. Because I, yeah, so I don't track that as well as I should. And I think with everything that's been going on, I have been so busy that I haven't. Honestly, I've just been letting it run itself. I checked my email every day, but no one ever emails me, which is nice, by the way. So I hadn't checked it in a while a and I checked it in preparation to do this podcast with you. And I was like, Oh, crap. I haven't had a sign up since July. This is September 2.Michele Hansen  2:39  So have I mean, has your revenue gone down? Like?Colleen Schnettler  2:44  No, actually, it hasn't. So I've been pretty consistent. So without doing a full churn analysis, I don't think people are churning. But they're not signing up. Okay, that's not okay. Let me stop. That's not entirely true. People are putting their email address in and then bouncing. So people are still finding my website. But yeah,Michele Hansen  3:12  I feel like it was like the people who are paying you is that mostly people from Heroku? or from your website?Colleen Schnettler  3:19  It's mostly people from Heroku.Michele Hansen  3:21  So are you still getting that like you had this problem where people were like, signing up on Heroku, but then not actually activating it? And like starting to use it, like, Are people still doing that first step on Heroku.Colleen Schnettler  3:37  So people are using it. I actually had one person respond with what he's doing. So that was cool. In terms of like a new signup. So people are using it that sign up on Heroku, which is good. It's just a lack of new signups is really confusing to me.Michele Hansen  3:55  Did you ever get that work done on the homepage like and Roku site like we were talking about the code pen and improving the documentation? And like, did did all that happen?Colleen Schnettler  4:10  So I have a whole list of great things I'm going to do so what I have done this week last week is I actually started writing a piece of I wrote an article right, it didn't take that long. I should have what it doesn't matter what I should have done. I did it. So that's good. So I have seen on Google Analytics said that is getting a decent amount of traffic. Today, literally today. I'm going to get that freakin try it now on the homepage. That is my plan to do that today. Nice. I'm speaking it into existence. The documentation is a whole different animal because I don't think I mean, I really need to redo the documentation. But that's like a whole thing. Like it's not I need to add some things. I think I need to take it in baby steps because I added some things to the tech side that are not reflected in the documentation that are kind of cool. So I think, but of course, instead of just adding that to my existing documentation, which I don't really like the way it presents, like, I just don't like the way it looks. I want to tear that all down and make a new app just for documentation, which I will do someday, butMichele Hansen  5:17  so it kind of sounds like you need to put away your laundry. But you don't want to do that. So instead, you're going to completely build yourself a new closet, butColleen Schnettler  5:26  my closets gonna be so pretty, and so organized.Michele Hansen  5:33  Yeah, I'm sensing a theme where like, you have a task that you don't want to do, or it seems overwhelming to you or you don't feel like it plays into your strengths. And so your way to do it is to make it something that is one of your strengths, which is actually just throwing more hurdles in front of you actually doing the task.Colleen Schnettler  6:00  Oh, yeah, totally. I mean, that's, like, it's funny, because before we got on this podcast, my plan was still to rewrite the whole documentation and make it its own site, blah, blah, blah. And as soon as I spoke those words to you, as I do, I've really is that really a super high priority, like, the higher priority should be getting the fact that like, I emit events on, you know, successful uploads, that's cool. People can use that. It's literally nowhere in my documentation that I do that. So I'm probably the priority should just be getting it out there with what I have. And then someday, when I have more time, I can rewrite the whole documentation site.Michele Hansen  6:39  This is your problem with the documentation that it's ugly, or that people email you telling you that it's janky. And, like, difficult to use documentation specifically, or is it just an eyesore? It'sColleen Schnettler  6:53  a it's an eyesore. I don't like the way it looks. I don't like the way I navigate with tabs. I don't like the tabs. Like I think you can still find everything no one has emailed me saying I don't understand how to use this. Hold on.Michele Hansen  7:05  I need to like I'm I'm pulling look at it. So nowColleen Schnettler  7:08  Yeah, pull it up. Okay, so if you go to simple file, upload.com, and then click on Doc's documentation,Michele Hansen  7:15  you got that calm, like,Colleen Schnettler  7:17  I know, I win it names. So if you look at it, I was like so I also bought unrelated simple file. Wait, what did I buy? I bought simple image upload calm. Hmm, I haven't done anything with it. I just snagged it. I was like, okay, that seems like what I should have. Okay, so look at this documentation page. Like, I just don't like the way it looks.Michele Hansen  7:40  I mean, it's not the ugliest thing I've ever seen. Like, it's basic, but like,Colleen Schnettler  7:45  it's fine. I mean,Michele Hansen  7:47  it like has a little bit of an old school README file vibe, but totally does. That's not a bad thing. Because that's how documentation was distributed for, like 20 years. And it's still sometimes distributed that way. Yeah. I mean, the other thing is, is like, I think it's okay to like, give yourself that space to be like, you know, like, this is ugly, and I hate it. I'm throw the content in there now. But also, when it comes time to build the documentation, like, there's so many tools for this, like, Don't design your own documentation to you know, like, like, if you're going to build yourself a new closet for all this, like at least buy one from IKEA, and then you just have to assemble it, like, don't go actually go out and buy the two by fours. And you know, like,Colleen Schnettler  8:42  do yeah, you're doing, I don't actually know what tools are out there to build documentation. So what do you guys use? Do you remember? Cuz I know you're right. This has got to be a thing. Like, you're absolutely right. IMichele Hansen  8:57  think I know someone who, like just bought a documentation tool.Colleen Schnettler  9:02  This is interesting.Michele Hansen  9:04  Because, like it definitely I don't I don't remember what the name is of the thing that we use. But we've actually we've actually had people reach out to us saying that they really liked our documentation and wanted to know where we got it from. Like, I think we just got it somewhere. Well,Colleen Schnettler  9:19  this is an interesting thing. I didn't actually I didn't even think about that. But absolutely, you're right, I should there's there's a better way to solve this problem than me. Does that make rewriting this whole thing? So what you're looking at now, the here's the real reason I want to redo it. What you're looking at now comes through the application page, and the application app does not use tailwind. My. My marketing site does use tailwind so that my thought would be to rewrite all of this documentation, put it on the marketing siteMichele Hansen  9:52  using tailwind because would you design it yourself with like tailwind elements or would you grab a template from tailwind.Colleen Schnettler  10:01  Oh, totally. I pay for whatever that thing is with tailwind where I can just copy the code and put it on. I bought that. Yeah.Michele Hansen  10:09  But it's worth it. It was totally worth anything is worth it. Totally Great. So yeah, there's I don't know, I don't know, read me.io. Right. Like there's all sorts of, is that what we use? That kind of looks like our docks?Colleen Schnettler  10:23  See, I didn't know that. IMichele Hansen  10:24  don't know. I don't think I'll have to ask Mateus. Right.Colleen Schnettler  10:28  So this is this is a good point, though. I should, because I don't need API documentation too. So I need to think about, yeah, readme.io has a whole documentation tab. Ooh, this looks fun. Oh, all right. I'm totally gonna check this out after the podcast, maybe that is the right answer.Michele Hansen  10:46  I don't know how much it costs. But yeah,Colleen Schnettler  10:49  well, it's gonna be cheaper than five hours of my time. Right. Right. Like, there's no way it cost that money, yourMichele Hansen  10:55  time is not free. And this is See See, this is I always say that, like, you know, I studied economics and undergrad. And I'm always like, Oh, you know, it was interesting, but it doesn't really relate. But here is where it does. Because, yeah, opportunity cost is a very real cost. And that is a perfect distillation of it that your time is worth more than spending five hours rolling your own documentation. thing when this is like already a solved problem.Colleen Schnettler  11:31  You're absolutely right. 100% agree with that. You're right. I didn't think about it that way. But that is a true statement.Michele Hansen  11:39  But first, I'd really just like tell people about the stuff you mayColleen Schnettler  11:44  think. Okay, so like, let's get actionable. Because AI, today is my day to work on simple file. So I think the first step, okay, I don't love the documentation I have, but I need to get the information out there. So the first step is just add something that's set like this things that people can use, like these event callbacks, or emitting events, like, that's useful information. So I'm just add it, you know, just adding it'll take all of 15 minutes. And like, I don't want to, you know,Michele Hansen  12:11  I don't want to be like standing on my, like, high horse here that like, you know, oh, we tell users everything we do, because actually, something we were just talking about this week was like, oh, like, we need to, like, send out an email to people and like, tell them about the features we've added because we basically stopped sending product updates, email, like, we never so. And then also like MailChimp shut down their pay as you go at one point. And, and then we're like, migrating and all this stuff. And I think we sent out like one email since then. But like, we were just talking about this the other day, that's like, oh, like we added support for like, geocoding a county, like if you know, you like have like a street address plus, like Montgomery County, Maryland, for example, like in places that like, use the county rather than the city name. We haven't told anyone about it, because we haven't sent any product updates, email, and God knows how long so I'm all this is to say that I am. I also need to take my own advice. And maybe other people too, maybe there's somebody out there, you know, just tell people about the thing you made. The thing you made? Yeah. Just tell them. Don't Don't think about you know, marketing stuff and ads and get all in your head about that. Just tell people. Yeah, even if it's a plain text email, just tell them just Just tell me advice I'm trying to give myself and I'm, I am trying to manifest it into existence that we will do that whole step to send out an email to get people to opt in. And then after that, we send out an email that tells them with the stuff we did, maybe that can be one email.Colleen Schnettler  14:42  Yes. So people tell people got it. I like it. That's good advice, your marketing advice. That's my marketing advice for the day I get to tell people. Yeah, so that's kind of what's up with me. I'm going to try And get those things implemented today. So hopefully that'll move the needle a little bit on signups. It was Yeah, it's definitely been a very trough of sorrow six weeks though I was like, Wow, that's a long time. eek.Michele Hansen  15:13  So I mean, there's the reason why there is that product lifecycle, like chart that has the trough of sorrow on it is because the trough of sorrow is normal.Colleen Schnettler  15:27  is normal. Oh, okay. This will be interesting.Michele Hansen  15:31  Yeah, yeah. There's like this whole image that's like the I didn't know that. Okay. Yeah. No, I when I said trough of sorrow, I was referencing something. Okay. I'll have to, I'll have to find it and send it to you. And also put it in the show notes. So everybody else who's like, What is she talking about? And then like five products, people listening are like, Oh, my God, I know that. I forget where it comes from. I think it might be like, it might have been a business of software talk at one point. ThatColleen Schnettler  15:57  Okay, oh, no,Michele Hansen  15:58  I think it might be the constant contact. Founder person.Colleen Schnettler  16:03  Has she interested in her? I don't know. Okay.Michele Hansen  16:07  Yeah, I'm gonna find it. It'll be in the show notes. So listening does not have to, like wonderColleen Schnettler  16:13  what it was to go dig through the internet to try and find itMichele Hansen  16:16  like normal to have, you know, periods when you're like, Okay, like, nothing happened. I mean, granted, you said that you kind of weren't really doing anything with it. So the fact that your revenue didn't like crater even though you basically didn't touch it for six weeks, like, that's awesome.Colleen Schnettler  16:36  Yeah, that's super awesome. Like,Michele Hansen  16:39  again, you know, to our conversations of like, if you ever wanted to sell this thing, like the fact that you didn't touch it for six weeks, and it kept making money. huge selling point.Colleen Schnettler  16:48  Yeah, yeah, it's super. so far. It's been super low touch, which is awesome. It's so funny, because years and years ago, I used to obsessively read. Do you know, Pat Flynn is smart, passive income guy? No. Okay. He's got this whole empire built about trying to teach people how to build passive income on the internet. Okay. And I used to obsessively read his blog. I mean, we're talking like 10 years ago. And here I am with kind of sort of passive income ish. And that's kind of cool. Yeah, you did anyway. So, yeah. Tell me about how things are going with the book and your podcast tour.Michele Hansen  17:26  Oh, so they're going so I think you had challenged me to be on 10-20 I feel like it was 20. I feel likeColleen Schnettler  17:37  I mean, it's been a while, but I feel like it was more than 10.Michele Hansen  17:41  So okay, so I have been on a couple at this point. So I was working, I was on searching for SaaS with Josh and Nate which sweet By the way, so of like people like our dynamic of like, you know, somebody like who has a SaaS and then somebody who's like trying to start one and like different phases, you would totally love searching for SaaS, because Josh has been running his business for, like, quite a long time, referral rock, has employees like, and then Nate is kind of has like consulting and is trying to figure out a SaaS. So I was on searching for SaaS, they were my first one. Um, and I'm so glad I did one with like, friends, because I was so nervous about the whole like, and I'm promoting a book, but it feels like self promotion, and I just just like is uncomfortable for me. So. So so I'm really glad I did it with them first, and then I recorded another one. That's actually they told me was not going to be out for another three or four months. So we'll hear about that one when it comes out. IsColleen Schnettler  18:45  that a secret?Michele Hansen  18:47  No. I mean, I just, I'll just tweet about it when it like comes out. But that counts, right? That's two. Yeah. And then I was on one night in product with Jason Knight, which came out a couple like, yeah, a couple days ago. That was super fun. Because that's like a podcast for product people. And we like really like dove deep on some of the different books and the differences and like, my fears around like people using this to like manipulate others was really it was really good. Um, so that's three and then I was on indie hackers, that that just came out. So that was kind of fun. I feel like I feel like I don't know like, I feel like it is like so legit. Like I don't know, it was kind of it was kind of wild. Indie hackers. Yeah. Being on the indie now.Colleen Schnettler  19:46  Did you talk about Geocodio or do you talk about the book or both?Michele Hansen  19:49  we talked about Geocodio a little bit but mostly about the book. Just kind of Geocodio as background.Colleen Schnettler  19:58  Okay. Yeah. Oh yeah, getting on Indie hackers that's basically making it. Like, that's amazing.Michele Hansen  20:05  Yeah. Like, can I be like, starstruck at myself for like,Colleen Schnettler  20:09  yes, you totally can. Like, I just think like, that's like, you know, that's like my life goal. No, that's not really a life goal. But I'm like, someday I will be on indie hackers. Someday Courtland will ask. I know, if I just take a couple more years. No, I love that podcast. I think that's wonderful. And yeah, yeah. Now you're kind of famous like, totally. Once you're an indie hackers, you've made it.Michele Hansen  20:33  I know, you're so funny. So like, I you're talking about this a little bit when when we add Adam on a few weeks ago that like, you know, I for a long time, like, like, so I didn't know that this whole community existed and that I knew about it, but I didn't feel like, feel like I was like, legit enough to like, be there, which was not true and was just my own imposter syndrome speaking. But for years, I had this like, sort of self policy that I would only go to conferences if I was speaking at them, because then people would come up to me and have something to talk about. Otherwise, I would be like standing in the corner, like not talking to anyone and like feeling like super out of it. Um, and so now I'm like, Okay, you know what, like, now if I like, go to something like, I feel like there's a good chance that like, one person, like, knows me, and we'll have something to talk about.Colleen Schnettler  21:29  Yeah. Yeah, that's great. I mean, that's a benefit of sharing your work, I think the way you have been. Yeah,Michele Hansen  21:38  yeah. So um, okay, so wait, so I lost count. Okay, so searching first as you're coming out in a couple of months. And Indie Hackers. Oh, wait, I think I forgot one. No, no, that's four. And then I recorded one yesterday. So that's five and then I am recording another one. today. So Wow, six. And then I'm scheduling another one. like trying to get that one on the calendar. Um, that person is also on pacific time like you and dude, it is so hard for me to schedule things with pacific time. Like, yeah, that nine hour time difference is required at the top planning. So I guess that's that's six I have either recorded or in the hopper. And I think there was more people who reach out to me, but I think they DMed me and I need to like, cuts through the jungle morass that is my DMs.Colleen Schnettler  22:48  That's great. I mean, honestly, 10 would it be spectacular? Colleen said, I have really 20. I know, now that I'm actually thinking through the logistics? That seems like a lot. Let me out of this. That's really great. So my next question would be, have you seen any, any impact yet of being on these podcasts? In terms of sales or community engagement or anything like that?Michele Hansen  23:15  Yeah, I mean, I guess the the biggest bump was definitely product times. Um, like, I think I saw like that day, like, I sold like 20 something. Or like, almost 30 copies, I think out of, I don't know, because I'm probably at like 350 now, or no, actually, it's more than that. Almost 400. So, oh, wait, maybe I'll be at almost 500 soon. That would be fun. Yeah. So So yeah, so there was definitely a little bump out of that. I did look this up for Josh and Nate from Searching for SaaS. And I sold three copies a day that one came out. So they were pretty pumped about that. I mean, I think it's the kind of thing where, like, not everybody, like listens to a podcast on the day. It comes. Yeah. Like, I was, like a regular listener of us. And like, they were like three episodes behind, because, you know, you've listened to it whenever you can. And there's other stuff going on. So in many ways, it's like, it's not really for the immediate hit of that in the same way that say like product time was,Colleen Schnettler  24:27  um, yes, yeah, yeah, long game.Michele Hansen  24:30  The long game there we go. Looking for. Um, so I mean, I guess we'll see. Right, because it's like, this is you know, this is not a like Big Bang. Launch. Right. Like, this is like the the book is hopefully designed or like written in a way, you know, to be a book that people recommend to other people they buy for their team. Like it's not like it's not particularly timely or relevant to like current events? So it's okay, if it doesn't, you know, sell like a bajillion copies in the first two months. Like, that's totally fine. You know, it's funny I was I was, I came across a tweet by our mutual friend, Mike Buckbee this morning, saying that, you know, validation for something is when you're getting stranger money. Like people who don't know you, they're not your friends. They're not the people that follow you. They're just like people who, you know, come across it for a reason. And then they buy it, and they're happy with it. And the book is definitely getting stranger money. SoColleen Schnettler  25:42  wonderful.Michele Hansen  25:43  Yeah. So So I so I think that's kind of a sign that it's, it was like, I mean, it was actually getting that in the presale. So. So I think that's a sign that, you know, things are in the right track, but it's just like, this is gonna be a slow burn.Colleen Schnettler  25:59  Yes.Michele Hansen  26:00  Yeah. So I mean, I'm happy with things, you know, again, like considering that, I think it was like most self published books only sell like 250 copies lifetime. And then most published books sell 300 copies their first year. Um, I've already, like smashed that. So anything on top of that, basically, is gravy. And but again, like those numbers, like are kind of like I look at that I'm like, Yeah, cool. Okay, like, but mostly, it's like, people tweet out, like, somebody tweeted out this morning that, like, they had their first customer interview, and it was delightful. And they learned so much. And like, they had scheduled it for 15 minutes. But at the customer's insistence, it went on for almost an hour. And they learned so much. And it was like, and I was like yes. Okay, like this. Okay, the book did what it was supposed to do like that. Yeah, that is what makes it feel like a success more than Yeah,Colleen Schnettler  26:49  that's anything that's really cool. Well, in the money. I mean, you know, I was thinking about, like, what motivates you Because for me, I want life changing money, you could get life changing money, any, anytime you want it like you You, you could just snap your fingers because you have a successful business. So that's something that I assume does not motivate you, because you kind of already have it. And so you know, when I think about the book, and like how you've been motivated, it really feels like helping people like really literally helping people learn how to be empathetic is what has driven this passion project for you.Michele Hansen  27:27  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, it's been a very, like, personal sort of mission, because it's not just about talking to customers like, and, and I guess what I mean, so one of them's actually this will be coming out the same day. So I guess I can talk about it. But I was talking about this a lot with Justin Jackson, on on Build Your SaaS about how, like, he was reading the book, and it made him realize like, oh, wow, like, I can actually use this in my personal life too. And like, it's like, not just a business book. And I was, you know, saying to him how, like, I think I've told you how, you know, people don't put be more empathetic on their daily to do lists, but they put, write the landing page, improve the documentation, get more sales, like, stop churn, figure out if people can use the thing I bill, like, that's the stuff that ends up on your to do list, and you can use empathy to solve those problems. And then in the course of doing that, you realize that you can transfer some of these skills to your personal life as well. Then it's like a double win.Colleen Schnettler  28:38  Wow. Yeah. So the other day, my 10 year old asked me what empathy was, and I literally handed him your book. Like, read this book.Michele Hansen  28:48  Let me guys this because this is the question that I get from children and adults, but children generally their first question, why is there a duck on the cover?Colleen Schnettler  28:58  He totally asked that. Yeah.Michele Hansen  29:03  Love it. Love it. Well, you know, you can tell him that he will find out when he gets to let me just flip through it here. I believe it's chapter 34. Um, you know, never accused me of burying the lede here. To get 138 pages, you will discover why there is a duck on the cover.It has been fun talking to you, as always, you too.Colleen Schnettler  29:45  I'll talk to you next week. All right.

Bu bölümde faniler için zaman yönetimi kitabı, remote çalışma, hava kalitesinin üretkenliğe etkisi, Apple ve CSAM tartışmaları, iOS 15 ile gelen Focus Mode ve son olarak da sizden gelen yorumlar hakkında sohbet ettik. Bölümde konuştuğumuz konular hakkında linkler:Zaman Çarkı 3 (Dragon Reborn) — Robert Jordan: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/16032123-yenidendo-an-ejderFour Thousand Weeks: Time Management for Mortals — Oliver Burkeman: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/54785515-four-thousand-weeksQingping Air Monitor Lite: https://www.amazon.com/Qingping-Monitor-Compatible-Temperature-Humidity/dp/B092HK4BB1The cognitive costs of air pollution: https://patrickcollison.com/pollutionExpanded Protections for Children - Apple: https://www.apple.com/child-safety/This Is Your Brain on Pollution - Freakonomics Radio: https://podcasts.apple.com/de/podcast/freakonomics-radio/id354668519?i=1000531771693iOS 15 Focus Mode: https://www.theverge.com/22579920/how-to-use-focus-modes-apple-ios-15-ipados-macos-montereyApple Reverses iOS 15 Safari Changes With New Toggle for Top Address Bar: https://www.macrumors.com/2021/08/17/apple-safari-design-changes-ios-15-beta-6/Sitelere erişim yasağı yazılımı — Freedom: https://freedom.toSeyfeddin'in sitesinde kullandığı toollar:Fathom Analytics: https://usefathom.comMomently: https://momently.comCommento: https://www.commento.ioFastmail: https://www.fastmail.comMailerLite: https://www.mailerlite.comYorumlarınızı ve sorularınızı hey@seyfedd.in e-posta adresine iletebilirsiniz.

Their bio (from the AmA post) Hi all, I'm Paul Jarvis. I've worked for myself in tech since 1999. I started out as a freelance designer working with companies like Microsoft, Mercedes-Benz, Yahoo, Warner Music and even Shaquille O'Neal. I've also written several books, including Company of One, which has been translated into about 20 languages so far. Several years ago I had an idea: “What if website analytics weren't ugly and didn't invade anyone's digital privacy”. So I spent a few hours in Photoshop and mocked something up, tweeted it, and the tweet took off like wildfire (queue: Fry from Futurama “TAKE MY MONEY” memes). From there, I worked with a cofounder to build Fathom Analytics, which started out open-source (1+ million downloads), and then moved to a hosted, paid SaaS.

Pre-order Michele's book on talking to customers! https://deployempathy.com/order Michele Hansen  00:00Welcome back to Software Social. This episode is sponsored by Fathom Analytics. Fathom is trusted by thousands of businesses to power their privacy-first website analytics like GitHub, FastMail, Buffer, Tailwind, and so many amazing small businesses, too. For the longest time, website analytics offer was seriously bad.  It was hard to understand, time consuming to use, and worse, and exploited visitor data for big tech to profit. Fathom is website analytics without compromise, easy to use, respectful of digital privacy, and fully compliant with GDPR. Plus, Fathom's script loads faster than Google Analytics, meaning it's better for SEO. With Fathom, you can see all of your visitors, not just half, because they've pioneered the method to bypass ad blockers without invading privacy. Fathom also doesn't chase venture capital or need investors. Like my company, Geocodio, they are customer-funded, and customers are the only folks they answer to. Try a free seven day trial or check out Fathom at UseFathom.com/ssp.  Michele HansenSo, the other day, I totaled up how much I have made from my book so far, and all the expenses.  Colleen Schnettler  01:19Okay.  Michele Hansen  01:20So, as of that point, $1363 in presales, which is just, like, the number of copies times 29. That's not my actual payouts. It's just, like, the gross revenue.  Colleen Schnettler  01:34Okay.  Michele Hansen  01:34And then, so the expenses. So, first one, for the formatting, I have to use the software called Vellum, which is $250. I had to buy ISBNs, like, the little, like, numbers on the back of the book that identify it.  Colleen Schnettler  01:49Yeah. Michele Hansen  01:50So, and I had to, you can either buy one, or like 10, and since I'm going to do an audio book, you need an ISBN for that, and like, a hardcover needs zone ISBN. And so anyway, that was $295. A barcode is $25. Proofreading $800, which is a lot of money, but I feel like that's the price of like, not being embarrassed that it's full of typos and you know, I feel like if I want to, like, have a book that, like, a manager could buy for their team, or like, people would recommend to their clients, like, it has to be professional.  And so having, like, professional proofreading is the cost of that. Colleen Schnettler  02:24Yeah.  I didn't know that was something. I didn't know that was a thing. Michele Hansen  02:30Yeah. Yeah, I spent, I think last week I mentioned how I was fighting with Grammarly a lot, and,  Colleen Schnettler  02:35Yeah.  Michele Hansen  02:36I just, I was like, I have spent like, two days fighting with Grammarly, just trying to get it to work, and like, and I was like, this is just, my time is more expensive than this. Colleen Schnettler  02:47Yeah. Michele Hansen  02:47So, I'm just gonna hire a proofreader.  Colleen Schnettler  02:50Good choice. Michele Hansen  02:50And then, of course, you know, don't include hundreds of hours of my time over the last couple of months. But, so, the total for expenses so far is $1370. Colleen Schnettler  03:01That's wonderful. Michele Hansen  03:02So, when you deduct $1363 minus $1370.  Colleen Schnettler  03:11Oh. Michele Hansen  03:12You get negative seven. Colleen Schnettler  03:16Yeah, I see. I misunderstood what you were saying. Got it. So you're in the hole seven bucks and hundreds of hours of your time. Michele Hansen  03:25Yes. Yeah.  Colleen Schnettler  03:26Alright. Well, good thing it;s a labor of love. Michele Hansen  03:28So, I looked at that number, though, and I just had this moment where I was like, holy, forking shirtballs, like, I need to market this thing.  Colleen Schnettler  03:39Yeah.  Michele Hansen  03:40Umm, and actually, so like, I sold another two since then. So now, I am actually at positive $51.  Colleen Schnettler  03:51Whoo.  Michele Hansen  03:52Yeah, whoo. Umm, and of course, you know, we're only like, only in presale, and like, a ton of people have today said they want the hardcover or they want the audio book. So they haven't, they haven't purchased it yet, or they just simply want the finished version. Umm, But yeah, that was kind of a wake up call for me that, like, I've been, you know, we talked about with Sean like, I, like marketing a info product feels very different for me than marketing a SaaS.  Colleen Schnettler  04:19Yes. Michele Hansen  04:19And also requires a lot more self-promotion, which I'm not comfortable with. Like, it makes me like, deeply uncomfortable to like, reach out to people and be like, hey, like, would you consider, like, you know, reviewing my book like, or, you know, can I be on your podcast and, like, talk, like, it makes me super uncomfortable. Umm so, so but I got to do it because like, negative $7, man, for like, four months worth of work is, you know, basically half of my time the last four months, certainly, last two months, has been on this book. And so I feel like I owe it to myself just for that, like, time to like, sell the gosh darn thing. Colleen Schnettler  05:07Definitely. Michele Hansen  05:09Yeah. So I like spent, you know, this week I was kind of working on, you know, like, I went through all of the newsletter issues and I, like, put in a link at the top to, like, buy the book because I've noticed that people are sharing the scripts around. Like, I can see the analytics that they're getting shared in people's Slack channels, or, you know, Trello, or Asana, which is a good sign that those maybe have some staying power. So, and just kind of thinking through a little bit more, a little bit more of the marketing and trying to arrange, you know, yeah, podcasts and stuff, but I gotta, I gotta market this thing. Colleen Schnettler  05:52Yeah, didn't Alex, who promoted his book on our podcast, didn't he do, like, 20 or 30 podcasts? Michele Hansen  06:00Yeah. Colleen Schnettler  06:01And how many have you done? Michele Hansen  06:04Um, I, well,  Colleen Schnettler  06:07I already know the answer. Michele Hansen  06:09Well, I mean this one. I mean, I was on a couple recently where I talked about the newsletter. Like, I was on, I, yeah. Like, I was on the Get the Audience podcast, and I was on the Learn Neto podcast as well. But like, the book wasn't out yet. So those weren't really, Colleen Schnettler  06:37Right, you didn't have anything to sell at that time.  Michele Hansen  06:39Yeah, it was just the newsletter. Yeah. Colleen Schnettler  06:40A good goal for you would be to try to book 15, you know, and get yourself as a guest on 15 to 20 podcasts to promote your book, because you can sell it now. Right? Even though it's not completely done. Michele Hansen  06:52Yeah. Yeah, I guess I guess. Yeah. I'm like scheduling one for the middle of July, like, so I'm currently, my goal is to publish it on July 2, but I like, I really hope that happens. But there may be like, you know, some people may need more time to, like, write reviews, and, like, making a cover and everything. So, it should be out by early July. Colleen Schnettler  07:20You're, when you say, I don't know. You mean the book?  Michele Hansen  07:22Yeah.  Colleen Schnettler  07:22I am little confused about what you're saying. Michele Hansen  07:23 Yeah. So like, upload it to Amazon, and people can buy a physical copy. Colleen Schnettler  07:28Yes. Michele Hansen  07:29So I don't think I'm quite there yet. Like, exactly like, and I think there's some things that I'm just saying aren't going to happen for, like, this first version, like, a friend of mine, who is a UX research expert was reading it, and there's a couple places she's like, this would be a really great table. This would be great as a graphic. And I'm like, yes, it would be but I have zero faculty for visual communication, and that is not going to happen right now. Like, that can like happen when my brain has the space to like, think that through, but it is, it is not happening right now. But yeah, I guess I guess I should say, I guess that, I don't even know where to start. Colleen Schnettler  08:13No no, Let's go like straight Nike style here.  Michele Hansen  08:15Nike style? Colleen Schnettler  08:16What is it, just do it? Just do it. That's my challenge for you. I'm not going to talk to you for a couple weeks because I'm about to embark on my epic road trip. So, my challenge for you is to reach out to, find and reach out to 25 podcast hosts that you think, Michele Hansen  08:34Good Lord. Colleen Schnettler  08:34And they're not all going to say yes, which is like, hey, man. I know. Michele Hansen  08:37I'm sitting here being like, Colleen, and I really struggle with self promotion. And even, you know, one person was hard for me and you're like, go do it 25 more times.  Colleen Schnettler  08:4525 times. I love that idea. Michele Hansen  08:46Coach Colleen says 25 more reps. So not fair. Colleen Schnettler  08:50Yes. So, that's what my challenge for you is, is to reach out, Michele Hansen  08:54 How about five?  Colleen Schnettler  08:57Really? I'm not impressed with your five. Michele Hansen  09:00I feel like everybody, I feel like everybody like, needs this person standing on their shoulder that's like, I will write one landing page this month. And you're just there. They're like, really?  Colleen Schnettler  09:11Really? That's the best you can do? Michele Hansen  09:13That's, like, that's it, you know? Wait, like, why are you here?  Colleen Schnettler  09:18You should try and, I don't know, just ask, ask one of our prominent friends who is a book author, Alex comes to mind again, how many podcasts he went on?  Michele Hansen  09:27Yeah. Colleen Schnettler  09:28And try to hit that number. I mean, it's game time girl. Like, you wrote the book. You did the hard work,nd now it's a whole new set of hard work that you have to do because you're right, like, this is a brilliant book. You don't want it to languish because, no one's ever heard of it. Michele Hansen  09:43I didn't say it was brilliant. You said it was brilliant. Colleen Schnettler  09:46Well, here you go. It's brilliant. it's needed. It's gonna be amazing. So, I think you need to like, get in gear. Michele Hansen  09:54Yeah, I, yeah. Okay. I guess, I have to go, well, if you are listening and you want to promote me, then help me. Colleen Schnettler  10:06Maybe what we can do is we can, I have an idea. Okay, plan. So, just put a tweet out and ask everyone for their favorite business podcast. I bet you'll get a list of at least 30. And then you can just, Michele Hansen  10:17Yeah, I guess, yeah, like, but like it has to be for SaaS, for example, because like, Planet Money isn't gonna have me on. Colleen Schnettler  10:25Right, right. I meant yeah, SaaS podcast. I mean, there's enough of them that do podcasts similar to ours.  Michele Hansen  10:31Make the internet do my research for me.  Colleen Schnettler  10:34Yes, there we go. Harness the power of the internet. Michele Hansen  10:41So if you see a tweet from the Software Social Account soon about your favorite business SaaS podcast, now you know why.  Colleen Schnettler  10:50The secret's out. Michele Hansen  10:52Yeah, the secret is out. Okay. Well, I will, I will try to book myself on some, some podcasts. I guess, I guess there's other ways I could promote it, too. Like, I could go on, like, Tiktok or, Colleen Schnettler  11:12No.  Michele Hansen  11:14No, we will not do that. For those listening at home, I think Colleen just spit out her coffee. Yeah. Okay. Well, I have some marketing to do. Colleen Schnettler  11:34Yes. Michele Hansen  11:36Yeah. I think I have like, I've literally sent I think one email, maybe two. No, yeah, one email that mentioned that the presale was live, which basically goes against every best practice, like, some like, someone sent me some advice the other day, and they're like, send at least three emails a day on your like, launch days. I was like, okay, I've sent like, one in the last two weeks, and I sent out my newsletter the other day, and I actually forgot to include a link to the presale. So, I need to, like, Colleen Schnettler  12:06You know what, suggestion.  Michele Hansen  12:07Yeah.  Colleen Schnettler  12:07This is really cool. So do you know the Wes Bos is?  He's, like, a famous JavaScript instructor. I bought like, all of his courses. But what he does is, he does, when he has a new product to launch, he does send a lot of emails, but he actually segments his emails. And to be fair, his list is probably like 30,000 people. But he segments his email, so you can unsubscribe just from the product launch emails, which I love, because I'm like, oh, I don't care about this product launch, or I already bought that, and then I can still continue to get all the normal newsletter emails. I mean, don't stress yourself out.  Michele Hansen  12:10Yeah. Yeah. Colleen Schnettler  12:14But it's an idea. It's an idea. Michele Hansen  12:20Yeah, I'm only using review at this point for, so, I don't, like, I don't even have like, ConvertKit or anything.  Colleen Schnettler  12:50Okay, set up. Michele Hansen  12:51Set up, so I, I don't, I probably should do that, but I haven't really,  Colleen Schnettler  13:00Okay, so I think podcast.  I'm still in editing, like, get it out the door mode, because there's still other like, launch stuff. Like, I have to like register the ISBN and like, I need to go through the whole process with Amazon of like, making sure all that's like, setup.  Michele Hansen  13:19So, that feels like a July task. Colleen Schnettler  13:24July task. That's fine. It's halfway to July. It's almost July. So, Michele Hansen  13:30Yeah, so I, maybe I should, like, make a spreadsheet of all the different things and, like, have a goal for those. Colleen Schnettler  13:39I'm, I'm a big fan of measurable goals, right? Like, so, so I'm team, you know, write it down, keep a spreadsheet, keep track of it. Not that I've executed so well on my goals, right? It's easy for me to sit here and tell you what to do. It's way harder when it's you telling me what to do. So, you know,  Michele Hansen  13:57Well isn't there, there's some business axiom about like, it's not like, like, like, achieving the exact goal is not important. It's the fact that you create one and then work towards it that matters. Like, there's somebody who has said something to that effect much more articulately than just said, but you know, it's like just you set the goal and then you go off on a journey to get there and you may end up somewhere else, but like, you have, you're at least doing something. Colleen Schnettler  14:23Right? You're making forward progress. Michele Hansen  14:25Yeah, and I should probably have a revenue goal, too. Like,  Colleen Schnettler  14:29So, okay. Michele Hansen  14:29Even though I don't want one, I should, I guess. Colleen Schnettler  14:32Okay, I'm gonna get off topic, and I don't want to get too far off topic. But, so I'm a really big fan of, like, famous sports coaches, like,  Michele Hansen  14:42Okay. Colleen Schnettler  14:43Like, this is, like, a thing. Like, I love reading biographies of like John Wooden and all these other really successful sports coaches. And one of my favorite takeaways from all of this information that I've osmosed is you cannot control the outcome, right? You can only control your effort and your attitude, which is why revenue goals are not very actionable. Because a revenue goal, like, you actually can't control that. What you can control is your attitude, right? How you approach the problem, and your effort, and how hard you work, and by aligning all of these steps in terms of effort and attitude, the revenue will come. But to set a goal, like, like, in the, you know, the basketball metaphors, like when the NCAA championships, you can't actually control that. You can just control how prepared you are, and your mindset when you attack the problem. Michele Hansen  15:40Oh, that makes sense. Colleen Schnettler  15:43I know that's, like, totally off topic, but I just read about it. And I'm like, Michele Hansen  15:48Yeah, so it's, so to what you were saying, like your goal of 25 podcast episodes. And, and rather than having a goal of say, you know, I don't know, like, $5,000, for example. Instead having it be like, be on 25 podcasts over the next six months to a year, about it, not including this one, because if we include all the episodes of this show then I'm like, totally hitting that, but I assume we're not. Um, and, you know, so like, being on a specific number of podcasts, or something else. I don't know, guest talks or something. Um, yeah, like picking like, specific actions that I can do that's like your equivalent. Like, it's like, write a landing page, right? Like, like, all these, like, things that are actions that I know are accretive towards,  Colleen Schnettler  16:51Right. That's the idea. Michele Hansen  16:52Good outcomes, but like, I fundamentally don't have that much control over how much I actually sell. Like, I can keep my ears out for things that might sell like, you know, for example, I'm gonna sell templates, too, for $19 that are like, Notion templates of all the scripts and it occurred to me earlier, like the, the How to Talk So People Will Talk section like, people seem to really love that. And I was like, that could maybe be its own, like, mini book for like, $10. It's like, just like, so you want, like, you know, you, you want to get information out of people, and you want them to think you're like, trustworthy and you want to, you know, learn how to, like listen actively, then, a mini book or something, like there's other stuff I could do. Colleen Schnettler  17:36Right, I guess all of my points, all of that that you just described, that's effort, right? Those are things you do. You ultimately can't control your revenue, but it'll get there if you put the effort in. That's the idea. Michele Hansen  17:46But like, I if I set the goal of like, be the, I don't know, New York Times number one bestseller or whatever, like, I have zero control over that. It's also not realistic. And it's not it, in some ways it's like, de-motivating there have a goal that is not clearly achievable.  Colleen Schnettler  18:07Exactly. Michele Hansen  18:07But being on 25 podcast is not like, like, that's like, those are very nebulous goals, because it's unclear what will lead to that.  Colleen Schnettler  18:17Yeah. Exactly. Michele Hansen  18:17But being on 20 Live podcast in six months is concrete. And I ostensibly have control over that. Colleen Schnettler  18:26Yes. Nice. Michele Hansen  18:28Wow. So, it sounds like you are doing like a lot of like, business reading lately. Colleen Schnettler  18:38Yeah, um, not a ton. So I do have a couple audio books queued up for my drive that I'm excited about, business ebooks, Obviously Awesome is one that I've been wanting to listen to and I have purchased but I have not yet. This one I just really liked. This one was about, like I said, some of the famous coaches. First of all, I'm a sucker for sports movies, but, but I really liked that idea that ultimately you, you can't control, like, if you're going to win, but you can control all of the aspects of your journey, like how much time you put in, how much effort you put in, like, what your mindset is, you could, those are all things that you know, you can control. And as you know, for like, it feels like for a couple months now I've been struggling to move the product forward. Like, the product is doing well. I hit $1300 MRR.  Michele Hansen  19:28Nice. Colleen Schnettler  19:28Which is, yeah, I mean, it's great.  Michele Hansen  19:30Yeah. Colleen Schnettler  19:30I'm really happy with it. But it, I feel a little bit stuck. I feel, and I don't know if it's, I feel stuck because I haven't had the time, or if I feel stuck because I'm actually stuck. Like, I can't figure out if I feel stuck because if I, if I, let's say I gave myself a week and I just worked every day on it if I would get myself out of that kind of rut, or if there's really no rut to get out of and this is just the nature of the product. That it's just a slow burn, which is fine. I mean, it's going well, like I'm not complaining, I know some people can't, you know, haven't hit this milestone, especially not as quickly as I did. But, um, so there's that. So, I think what I want to do is I want to make a bigger push on content. Because I really haven't, I really don't have any content out there. So that's something I'm going to try and spend some time on, and like, there's just some things about the product that I want to keep iterating on, and I want to make better. Michele Hansen  20:36I mean, we were just talking about goals and the, sort of how difficult it is to have a monetary goal because you don't have control over it. And it's, it's awesome, first of all that, I mean, to have $1300 MRR means that, I mean, a month or two ago, we're talking about how you're hitting 1000. That means that like, that's, the thing, the thing about revenue for a subscription business is that revenue happens every month, like, this revenue that I have from the book, that happened once, and that's not going to happen again. But yours, people are paying you. So it's not just that you have made $1300 like, you, that is compounding and adding on top of each other. But I am sort of curious, like, there has to be some number or range in your head where you're like, I can stop consulting now. Or I can, you know, somebody offers me a full time job and I can just like, turn it down without even thinking about. Like, there has to be some number for you. Colleen Schnettler  21:38Absolutely. And I think like, and, and, absolutely. And I mean, I'm in this for the money. Like, just to be clear, that makes some people really uncomfortable. I don't know if they're not used to women saying that or what, but like, when I tell people that they get a little uncomfortable. Michele Hansen  21:53It's like, your job, like, Colleen Schnettler  21:55Yeah, like, I want to make more money.  Michele Hansen  21:56Like, of course everybody is in their job for the money. Like, yes, I'm doing this book as like, a passion project and like, which leads me to make all sorts of decisions that are confusing to people who prioritize money, like, but like you, understandably, are prioritizing money, because this is your job. And if this doesn't work out, then you know, Colleen Schnettler  22:17I gotta go get a real one. Michele Hansen  22:18I mean tons more consulting, or like, getting, getting a paycheck job is what you have to do. Like, this is not, Colleen Schnettler  22:25Yeah, so.  Michele Hansen  22:27Yeah.  Colleen Schnettler  22:28I mean, the thing I love about owning your own business is the possibilities are infinite, right? Like, I mean, I, from a personal perspective, you know, if I could get to 10k, that would be like, Oh, my gosh, I cannot, that would be, I'd be over the moon, right?  Michele Hansen  22:45So that's the number. Colleen Schnettler  22:47The number would be 10k. But, you know, why can't I have a couple million dollars a year in revenue? Like, I want a business. Michele Hansen  22:53 Why can't you have a million dollars?  Colleen Schnettler  22:56I mean, I want a business. Like, if I hit 10k and stay there forever, like, I probably would be a little frustrated. Like, to me, the whole point of having your own business is the possibilities are, in, you know, infinite. And like, one of the things I've been able to do with my modest income, is I've been able to hire two people to help write content for me. And yeah, hired someone else.  Michele Hansen  23:23Oh, you're, wait.  Colleen Schnettler  23:25And, yeah, man, I'm crazy over here. I'm just, dollar bills.  Michele Hansen  23:28Dude, and I'm like, 7 years into this and I like, just hired, like, a part time VA, like, three months ago. Colleen Schnettler  23:34Yeah, yeah. I feel like you're doing it wrong. But that's a different issue. Michele Hansen  23:37Probably. I'm doing it my way, okay.  Colleen Schnettler  23:40That's right. So, and the thing I love about that is, I, with, with the people that I'm paying, I've been able to, you know, people who are kind of writing anyway, now I can pay them to write, it seems like such a win-win. Like, I feel like I'm, it's good for them and it's good for me. And it's something I really love. So like, ultimately, I would love to build this into, like, you know, a really successful business and hire a person and, and, and be able to have created this environment where I can work with who I want and buy my beach house and all that. I mean, I'm big on the beach house if I haven't mentioned that a few times already. Michele Hansen  24:25So the first, like, the first big goal, which I think it'll be fun to reevaluate this a year from now, is like 10k basically. Colleen Schnettler  24:36Yeah. I mean, Michele Hansen  24:36To get you to 10k revenue and then to like, the big, big goal is buy Colleen a beach house. Colleen Schnettler  24:43Buy Colleen a beach house. Yeah. But to me 10k, and I don't know if I have, and I'm still, I feel like I'm in that messy middle phase. Like, I hit 1k, which makes it feel like it's a real thing. Like it's, it's legit, but I don't know if I'm in, I feel like there's a, going from zero to 1k is different than going from 1k to 10k. Right? It's a factor of 10 more. Like it's a big, you feel like going from zero to 1k is one milestone and one to 10 is your next milestone. But one to 10 is way more than zero to one, right? So, I honestly don't know if I'm positioned correctly with this product to get there. Michele Hansen  25:26Which is why you're reading Obviously Awesome. Colleen Schnettler  25:28Which is why I'm reading Obviously, Obviously Awesome. I just, I just don't know, if I'm in the right space, there's so much opportunity. I was talking to a founder recently and he talked about how he pivoted his company and moved into a totally different space, and they started growing, like they were kind of stagnant for a while, and then they kind of made this pivot, moved into a new space and their growth exploded. So, I definitely think there's a spot for me, I just don't know what it is, and I just don't know, it feels like a lot. Like the other thing that, that I wanted to just kind of bring up is when people talk about how to grow in your business. They talk about, like, building the product, as if it's this static thing that takes you like two weeks, and like writing good software is hard. And, it's a constantly evolving process. So it's something that constantly needs my you know, my attention, and that's not bad. I just feel like, you know, it's hard to balance, as most people who listen to this who are working and building a product know, it's just hard to balance all of those competing desires. So I just don't know if I have a, I guess the truth is, I don't know if I have a product that's going to get me to 10k. Like, I don't know, I don't know where it is right now. It's that product. Michele Hansen  26:52I mean, thinking back to where we were like I don't, I don't have our numbers in front of me, so I don't remember them exactly. But like, the thing that really made our revenue jump was not adding any one particular feature or one particular marketing thing. It was a pricing change, because we like, so we started out, I think we were like $31 our first month. And then I don't know, like, maybe maybe $100 the next month, and then like $400 the next month, and then in May of 2014, we had someone who needed, like, a crazy volume of usage every single day. And the only way we could make that work was basically to give them their own server. And we looked around and see what, you know, big companies were charging for these sort of really high volume, like, plans and we're, and I think we we figured out like, the cheapest one was like 10,000 a year, for, that was still like rate limited, I think to 100,000 a day, but we're like, okay, we can do like basically Unlimited, up to like 5 million a day for you for $750 a month, which worked out to 9000 a year. And adding that plan, which was like, slightly different feature-wise, but like it wasn't it wasn't like adding a feature to the API, but it was like a pricing feature, and a new plan, adding that one plan and then, like, we didn't think anyone else would ever take it, and then people started taking it. Like, that is what caused our revenue to really grow. And so I wonder if there's some space for like, you know, pricing evolution here. And like maybe there's some other way of packaging your products with the existing features in a way that's at a higher price point. But I don't like, I don't know why that is. Colleen Schnettler  28:44So I do. Michele Hansen  28:44 It's your business, like, so.  Colleen Schnettler  28:46Yeah. Michele Hansen  28:46But like, I think it's worth thinking about, like, the pricing aspects of, of this. Colleen Schnettler  28:50Yeah, well, and one of the things I do is my app has a lot more power that I'm exposing at the moment. So, I think the answer for example, like, I think I limit your file size to 50MBs, there's no reason I have to do that, like I don't, you know, there's there's a couple things someone reached out to me and told me that his company has a setup now where their customers upload files, like up to a gig(GB) through Upload Care, and then they, but they move them off the Upload Care servers, because it's so expensive, or it's a whole thing. I'm talking to him, I'm gonna, you know, have I have an interview scheduled with him to better understand Michele Hansen  29:26Whoo. Colleen Schnettler  29:26I know. Michele Hansen  29:27Music to my ears.  Colleen Schnettler  29:30But I, you know, so my point is, there's the two things that I'm not doing, I think I've might have mentioned this last week, is multiple file uploads, which I can do. I'm doing it for one client, special, and large files. So it might just be that I'm not quite positioned properly yet.  Michele Hansen  29:46Yeah. Colleen Schnettler  29:46In terms of I've really kept, I've kept a lot of that functionality close to the chest for no particular reason, just because I didn't want to like, release all the features at once and overwhelm everyone like, oh my goodness, but since I can't do those things, it seems like re, kind of revisiting, revisiting some of those options would probably be a good move for me.  Michele Hansen  30:09Yeah, I think it's really smart that you're, like you're doing a big road trip. So you're, and you're going to be listening to this book in the car, right? Colleen Schnettler  30:19Yes, ma'am. Michele Hansen  30:20Like, I find that we do our best like, business thinking on road trips, like, I, maybe it's because, you know, you like, you, you can't be doing anything else, like, you are literally stuck there. Colleen Schnettler  30:34Right. You're stuck. Michele Hansen  30:34And like, and I can't be looking at my phone in the car, otherwise, I'm going to get carsick. And, of course, it's the two of us and like, like, our go to for road trips is like, how I built this. So we end up like, really like, coming up with stuff on on, like, you know, I have, like, emailed myself of, like, conversations we've had on road trips. And so of course, it'll only be you. But, you know, those times when, like, the kids are sleeping in the back or whatever, and you can't have the audio book on and thinking all these things through, like, I think it'll be really good thinking time for yourself. And but remember to like, take notes every day on what it is that you think about. Colleen Schnettler  31:17Oh. That's a good point. I should bring a notebook. That's a really good point. Michele Hansen  31:20Like, a notebook or even just like, record a voice memo for yourself or whatever, if that's easier, just like, something so you don't, like, because there are times when when we've had like, an amazing conversation on a road trip, and then I didn't write it down. And then like, you know, a week later, we're back and we're like, oh, my God, like, what was that like, an amazing thing. And like I had this whole, like, like pre COVID, we were on a road trip. And I had this whole idea of like, our content strategy built around, like really unique address data. Like, for example, in South Carolina, there's three, there's like four towns called Norway, Sweden, Denmark, and Finland, all right next to each other, like, I was gonna, like, write about all of these, like, odd location, address things, and I came up with this great name for it on the road trip, and then I like, I still cannot remember what that name was, so take notes. Colleen Schnettler  32:09Yeah, I totally, I totally hear you. I know exactly what you're saying. I think that's a great idea. I think I have a lot of thinking to do. You know, I kind of feel like it was really exciting in the beginning when I was trying to launch the product. And then it's really exciting. And then everything is very, very exciting. And then you hit your first milestone, and then it's kind of like, oh, but now there's another milestone, okay, so I never really win.  Michele Hansen  32:32Right. The goalpost just moves. Colleen Schnettler  32:34The goalpost continuously moves. So it's interesting to me, I mean, I have a lot to think about is like, is this a product that can get me to 10k? How do I, and how do I get there? Right? Like, what is what do I need to do to get there? As I just said, when I was giving you my little pep talk, like it's putting in the work, I mean, you know, it's not going to sell itself. So yeah, I'm ready to really, really give it some time to think about it on my epic journey. Michele Hansen  33:01Alright, well, on, on that note, I guess we should just sort of make a quick programming note that Colleen will be away for the next two weeks. And so we will, we will be leading on that social side of Software Social and have some guests coming up that I'm super excited about. And then I will be away the following week, so Colleen is gonna have a guest on, and then we will both be like, basically a month from now. Colleen Schnettler  33:34Oh my gosh. I won't talk to you for a month. Michele Hansen  33:35Wow. That feels so weird.  Colleen Schnettler  33:37Oh, gracious. That's sad. Michele Hansen  33:45I mean, you'll text me roadtrip updates. Colleen Schnettler  33:45Obviously. Michele Hansen  33:46Yeah.  Colleen Schnettler  33:46Obviously, I'm so excited to see, like, cactuses, by the way.  Michele Hansen  33:52Yeah? Colleen Schnettler  33:52In Arizona. Yeah. I'm so excited to see the great American West. Michele Hansen  33:55I've heard Arizona is, like, gorgeous. Colleen Schnettler  33:57Yeah, I'm super pumped to see a big cactus. Anyway. Michele Hansen  34:00Oh, I've been there. I was okay, whatever. We're gonna stop here for today. Colleen Schnettler  34:07Wrap it up. Michele Hansen  34:11I'll talk to you next week.

Lindsay, Steve, and Luke Diebold discuss SEO in Nuxt with Anamol Soman. We talk about how he got started with Vue, and his initial blog posts on Nuxt. We dive into SEO, what it is and why it's important, and how to integrate plugins with Nuxt to improve search engine optimization. We also discuss some of the difficulties developers run into with optimizing their sites. Panel Lindsay Wardell Luke Diebold Steve Edwards Guest Anamol Soman Sponsors Dev Influencers Accelerator Links Building Scalable Applications with Quasar – VUE 146 | Devchat.tv Vue Mastery Make your Nuxt.js Application SEO Friendly JSJ 476: Understanding Search Engines and SEO (for devs) – Part 1 | Devchat.tv JSJ 477: Understanding Search Engines and SEO (for devs) – Part 2 | Devchat.tv Anamol Soman - Medium Meta Tags and SEO - NuxtJS Netlify Analytics Fathom Analytics  LinkedIn: Anamol Soman Picks Lindsay- Slidev Luke- Metabase Contact Lindsay: Twitter: Lindsay Wardell ( @lindsaykwardell ) Contact Luke: Twitter: Luke Diebold ( @LukeDiebold ) Contact Steve: Twitter: Steve Edwards ( @wonder95 ) GitHub: Steve Edwards ( wonder95 ) LinkedIn: Steve Edwards

Lindsay, Steve, and Luke Diebold discuss SEO in Nuxt with Anamol Soman. We talk about how he got started with Vue, and his initial blog posts on Nuxt. We dive into SEO, what it is and why it's important, and how to integrate plugins with Nuxt to improve search engine optimization. We also discuss some of the difficulties developers run into with optimizing their sites. Panel Lindsay Wardell Luke Diebold Steve Edwards Guest Anamol Soman Sponsors Dev Influencers Accelerator Links Building Scalable Applications with Quasar – VUE 146 | Devchat.tv Vue Mastery Make your Nuxt.js Application SEO Friendly JSJ 476: Understanding Search Engines and SEO (for devs) – Part 1 | Devchat.tv JSJ 477: Understanding Search Engines and SEO (for devs) – Part 2 | Devchat.tv Anamol Soman - Medium Meta Tags and SEO - NuxtJS Netlify Analytics Fathom Analytics  LinkedIn: Anamol Soman Picks Lindsay- Slidev Luke- Metabase Contact Lindsay: Twitter: Lindsay Wardell ( @lindsaykwardell ) Contact Luke: Twitter: Luke Diebold ( @LukeDiebold ) Contact Steve: Twitter: Steve Edwards ( @wonder95 ) GitHub: Steve Edwards ( wonder95 ) LinkedIn: Steve Edwards

It took me a while to draw out what I wanted to say in today's monologue about our guest. This will be his 6th appearance on the show. With this episode, we've covered 4 different SaaS based businesses, with a handful of digital products and one service-based business that's still running, of which, I've never fully interviewed him about. I really should since it's the cashflow center he has to fund all of these business experiments he's chasing. His name is Brian Casel and he's trying something new, it's called ZipMessage. It's an asynch way to share videos with customers & colleagues. Out of everything he's worked on, I think this will be the software project that defines his career in the software business. Just like I called it with Paul Jarvis and Fathom Analytics taking over his product world, I bet we'll have Brian back on for a 7th time when he sells his company to Microsoft. Enjoy today's episode! https://youtu.be/MLK9qQjRLSo Transcript [00:01:39] Matt: [00:01:39] It took me a while to draw out what I wanted to say in today's monologue about our guests. This will be a six appearance on the show. With this episode, we've covered four different SAS based businesses with a handful of digital products and one service-based business. That's still running of which I've never really fully interviewed them about. I really should. Since it's the cashflow center, he has [00:02:00] to fund all of these business experiments. He's chasing.[00:02:03] Can you guess who it is? His name is Brian Casel. He's trying something new. It's called zip message. It's an async way to share videos with customers and colleagues. Out of everything he's worked on. I think this will be the software project that defines his career in the software business.[00:02:19]Just like I called it with Paul Jarvis and fathom analytics taking over his product world. I bet we'll have Brian back on for a seventh time when he sells this business to Microsoft. You're listening to the Maryport a podcast for the resilient digital business builders. Subscribe to the newsletter@mattreport.com slash subscribe and follow the podcast on apple or Spotify or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Better yet. Please share this episode on your social media. We'd love more listeners around here. Okay.[00:02:46] Let's talk to Brian and find out why he's launching yet another product. Hey everybody. Welcome back to what I'm calling the Brian report. Brian. Oh man. Welcome back to the podcast. You've [00:03:00] clearly won the, a amount of recurring times on the, on the merit port show. I should just have applied for all of the products that you launch. I should just have a podcast all to yourself and everything that you have going on today.[00:03:12] We're talking about. If that's[00:03:13] Brian: [00:03:13] not a sign of failure, I don't know.[00:03:15] Matt: [00:03:15] What is failure show castles here to talk about what might be another failure, the message you can find zip message@zipmessage.com. I'm going to open this up. I think a lot of people know your backstory. If they haven't, they can listen to the half a dozen shows that you and I have already done on this podcast.[00:03:33]Why this product last time we. We chatted. You were just getting your, you were, you were getting that sort of Ruby on rails, getting your chops down on that, like learning how to build whole other platform and suddenly zip message appeared out of nowhere. How, why, when did it come about, why did you pursue it?[00:03:51] Brian: [00:03:51] Yeah. I don't, I don't remember exactly when our last show here on a I'll call it Matt report aired. It must've been [00:04:00] probably around 2018 or 2019. I can't believe it's actually been that long, but you and I have chatted since then. The, so a little bit of of the timeline process kit, which is, you know, I still run and still going that product.[00:04:15] I basically started working on it really full-time in January of 2019, I kind of started planning it in 18, but really got full-time into it in January 19. Launched that to first paying customers by around June of, I want to say, yeah, 2019, and then really focused a hundred percent on that. Throughout 19 and 20 and into 20.[00:04:40] And then at the end of 2020 you know, process kit just got to the, to that place where a lot of SAS get to where, you know, a couple thousand in MRR it's really slow to grow. It has some. You know, so some, some challenges I tried a bunch of stuff and I'm still trying some stuff, but I decided at, [00:05:00] in around December of 2020 to just take a step back and start to open my mind to like, maybe I should try another product or two or three.[00:05:12] And actually like back in, back in, you know, back in January, the idea was. Let's let's throw a couple of ideas at the wall and see what sticks, but there was really this one idea called zip message, which I had the idea and midway through 2020, but I, you know, I shelved it along with all the other shiny object ideas in my long list of them.[00:05:29]But I was like, let me just try this. Take a little breather from, from really pushing on process kit, put it, put the roadmap on process could a little bit on, on maintenance mode. And and I went into zip message and, you know, I really liked the idea. I was attracted to the idea because a number of different things.[00:05:46]First of all, you know, in, in a lot of ways, it's sort of really every business that I ever get into, I'm trying to course correct from something that I learned in the, in the previous one. Right. One of the big challenges with process kit [00:06:00] has been that it's a really big. Product, which means it's a really big task to adopt.[00:06:05] If you're a new customer, like it literally takes new customers a good month, at least of. Of like everyday work on their part to, to[00:06:13] Matt: [00:06:13] really, they have to appeal the process out, template it out into your system, if you will, and then engage people to, to use it. And I remember you and I chatting a lot PR you know, privately between the two of us, like, wouldn't this be a great idea, like free templates to like kickstart that and nurture.[00:06:30] Yeah.[00:06:30] Brian: [00:06:30] And, and we have templates in there which really did help a lot in, in late 20, 20. Added the templates and put them like front and center in the onboarding experience. So actually since then we've had, you know, more customers, self convert without, without the heavy customer support load that it did have for a while there.[00:06:45]And that, that continues, I guess it's just super slow, you know, to, to grow and, and become a thing. And for those that don't know, like in the background, I also have audience ops, which I'm not super involved in day to day, but that, that is the other business that I have that, that sort of.[00:07:00] [00:06:59] Funds all the runway for, for getting into SAS. So it gives me a little bit of space and time to be able to explore different ideas which is, which is really nice. But with zip messaging, I really liked it because the first things that really attracted to me as the business idea is that it's so fast to get value from, you know, like again, process kit is like, you got to really commit like a good month to get, to really start to get value.[00:07:23] Like you're automating operations in your business. Whereas with zip message. You could sign up and have an, an asynchronous video call with one of the person and you just got. A bit of value from this tool. Is that something[00:07:36] Matt: [00:07:36] you, you sort of stumbled upon? I know countless products, services and stuff that you've, that you've gone through.[00:07:42] And I, and I want to kind of break that down of like what your best, most valuable lesson is thus far in your career, but will you like sort of. You know, midway through or three quarters way through here with process get going. You know what I think I missed, I think it was that I think it was that quick, easy, instant gratification to a [00:08:00] customer.[00:08:00] I feel like that's what I'm missing and, oh, that's right. I get this thing called zip message over here that I was thinking about doing[00:08:07] Brian: [00:08:07] learned. It it's, it's never just one thing. There's always, you know, there's, there's really probably like 10 big learnings that I've taken out of process kit. And some things that I, that I learned.[00:08:17] That, that we did really well, but yeah, that was one of them definitely is that activation adoption sort of thing. The most common , churn reason that I hear from people is you know, really it's so more of a challenge of, of getting new people to adopt it. Cause cause once people do do get like sign on the, the lifetime is really great and they actually do expand that they add, you know, team members and stuff like that.[00:08:41]But they, they basically stopped like the people who turn, they, they basically stop using it after a few months. So, you know, obviously there there's. There might be some like product market fit issues there, but there is a core customer base that is like power users on it and they really love it.[00:08:55] So it's sort of like a question of like, what do I do with that?[00:08:59]Matt: [00:08:59] This is a [00:09:00] reaction to just like, it's not even just whatever audio video tools to do apps and like all these other spaces. This is just everything. Every product in the world competing with that I need to, it needs to be instant or the customer.[00:09:15] They're out. Like it doesn't matter what kind of tool you're launching[00:09:17] Brian: [00:09:17] here. Yeah. The thing that I saw with zip message that, that got me really excited. Number one, was that like speed to get getting value from the tool. Number two is it's, it's heading into a space of software tools. That is, is not brand new.[00:09:33] So like loom is probably the most common call it competitor. And, and which, you know, lots of people use, I use loom as well. And so this idea of like video recording, video messaging tools, the thing that I saw with loom, and this was actually the, the way the idea for zip message came about was that I would commonly be on a customer support call for process kit, and ask the customer, Hey, I [00:10:00] need to see what you're seeing.[00:10:00] Can you record your screen for me? Can you, can you go use a tool like, like loom or, or record your screen and send me a Dropbox link or whatever you might do. And, you know, that's a lot to ask for, for customers. Like maybe they do use loom, maybe they don't. But it's just friction there. Right? So I wanted to, like, I, I started thinking like, man, there's gotta be an easy way for me to just send somebody a link.[00:10:22] They click it, they come to a page, they could start recording their screen. And that was the original idea for zip message. And that's what it is. You can, you can do that, but, but what it quickly evolved into was okay, they could re it's easy for somebody else to record, but I can record my response right back to them.[00:10:42] And now we have this asynchronous conversation on, on video or just audio camera, screen screenshot, or just text. And now is literally flowing down the page, like a conversation. But we're asynchronous. We don't have to book a live zoom call, you know? I don't have to [00:11:00] ask somebody to get on their calendar, all that.[00:11:02] It's just like, here's a link. Let's talk when it's good for both of us. And, and it just flows right down the page. And, and that idea of the asynchronous conversation turned out to be the thing that people are starting to really latch on to, you know, because. And that was a little bit to my surprise, you know?[00:11:20]And, and I'm finding all these other use cases. My original use case was like customer support scenarios, but. All these other use cases are coming up like, oh, I want to, I want to use it to, to take requests for my podcast. I wanna, I want to use it to, you know, collaborate with my team, my freelancers, talk to my customers, or use it in a sales situation to have asynchronous video chats with, with sales prospects, hiring, like getting, you know, video responses from applicants and stuff like that.[00:11:49] So, I'm sort of fielding all these different use cases right now, but it's, they're all interested in, I, I keep asking people, like, why are you interested in zit message? Why, why don't you just use a loom? [00:12:00] Right. And, and they all come back saying, this is the one that has that, that conversation, like a threaded conversation view.[00:12:08] And so we're really sort of leaning into that. And I'm pretty excited about it. I I've been. Ha having conversations with, with customers like using zip message. It's a[00:12:18] Matt: [00:12:18] really cool[00:12:19] Brian: [00:12:19] tool. Totally. It's a really cool way to actually communicate,[00:12:23] Matt: [00:12:23] you know? Yeah. Before we keep drilling into the product and how you're approaching it, , what has been the most valuable piece of education to Excel your career?[00:12:33] I'm going to bet that it's learning how to. Amy, you always know, you've always known how to develop, but I feel like this progression into learning Ruby on rails and becoming a a better developer has been something that has really skyrocketed your ability to launch and iterate and feel more confident in products.[00:12:52] Is that, is that true?[00:12:53] Brian: [00:12:53] A hundred percent. Yes. Yeah. I love it. And it has skyrocketed my enjoyment of what I do [00:13:00] with, with products. Yeah, it has really, really removed such a huge barrier. Cause I've, I, I have been a front end dev my whole career. I've been a designer. I am a designer.[00:13:11]And, and when I say designer, I, you know, as, as any designer knows that that doesn't mean. Picking colors and picking typography. Like that's just one detail of it. What you're really doing is as a designer, you're solving a problem. And so when you're designing for the web, especially if you're designing software, you're really designing the whole system from the way that it works.[00:13:34] In the database to the way that the user interacts on the, on the screen. And for years, I, you know, probably one of your mat reports, we talked about like ops calendar when I was doing that. And that was 2017. Yeah. Back then I couldn't develop backend. So I had to hire out. Help with that. Right now, I, I also have a developer that I work with them and we can work really fast together.[00:13:57] Another big benefit of being a developer myself [00:14:00] is I can collaborate on such a deeper, more productive level with him. He's in India and we, and we are hashing out every single feature together. Not to mention working You know, like two tracks, like we're, we're able to ship twice as many features in a week because it's both me and him working on it.[00:14:20] Yeah.[00:14:20] Matt: [00:14:20] So, I I'd say also one of your super powers, it's kind of funny. Not to get sidetracked on, on products. I'm looking at our 2017 episode on the Maryport building ops calendar. And one of the channel under the challenges bullet point section there's here's a bullet point. It says there's a side plugin business that is also being created from custom tools by audience, which I think was like your opt-in forms on WordPress, the content upgrades.[00:14:44] Yeah, it just goes to show like all of these different things that you would fragment and spider out too.[00:14:49] Brian: [00:14:49] That one was funny because we had that's a pair of, of WordPress plugins. And we, you know, some, some customers bought it, but we mainly used it for clients and audience ops. And then I think it was [00:15:00] around 2018.[00:15:00] I ended up selling those to liquid web. Which came about really randomly, but but it was nice to sort of just[00:15:07] Matt: [00:15:07] let those go. I'd say also one of, one of your super powers, which might often get overlooked is your ability. And this is just something that I've admired your ability to do. And I just don't know if I have the patience like you to do it, but as hiring people is higher as being able to find and hire and train people up to.[00:15:25]To help you develop these, these products. I think that's a skill set that is very difficult to hone over time. I've seen plenty of blog posts that are like, here's all you have to do, make a couple of test projects and hire and go through 12 of them and hire that one person. It's like, it never works for me.[00:15:41] Works for you. You[00:15:42] Brian: [00:15:42] know what? It's interesting you say that because I think, I think I've done okay with hiring over the years. In, in, in certain types of hiring, but, but now I'm in a different place with trying to build a small team to grow this SAS company that I'm working on [00:16:00] now. Right. So, and, and that I'm finding a lot more challenging to hire for.[00:16:04]I'm still figuring it out. I like, it's literally on my plate this week, like a problem that I haven't figured out yet. So, the what, what I've always felt pretty comfortable with is. Okay. I've got a service. I figured it, the process for delivering the service. I've documented the process. I set up the systems.[00:16:23] Now I need to hire people to plug into the process. And carry out specific roles. That's that's what audience ops is. We've got a team of about 25 people, writers, copy editors managers, assistants, and they, they just kind of carry out their tasks. And that has grown to where we have like a, a higher level manager.[00:16:41] We've got a sales person, we've got, you know, different stuff. So you know, that, that. I think, I think I'm an okay manager. Maybe not a great manager. I don't know that. I'm great. Yeah. Yeah. Like building a a strong team culture something I w I always want to try and get better at, but, but my team there is, has [00:17:00] been with me for many of them four or five, six years, you know?[00:17:03]Yeah. And, and that's gone, that's gone pretty good. And developers I've, I've had generally pretty good success with sometimes it's initially hard to, to find the right person who has the right skillset, but being technical now makes it so much easier, frankly. I haven't done it that much because I've just been working with this one developer.[00:17:19] Who's been awesome.[00:17:21] Matt: [00:17:21] One of the challenges for me. When I'm looking to, to work with a developer especially in the past is I feel like I should be finding somebody who just cares as much. About the product and like the vision and the future as I do about like, whatever product that was, or is that I was working on, that was a lesson that I learned really early.[00:17:42] Like, man, you got to just pump the brakes on that. A lot of people just want the task, want to get it done and do a good job, but they're not going to care about the long-term vision of where you want to go. Is that something that you wrestle with at[00:17:54] Brian: [00:17:54] all? With developers. We were just talking about how I'm, I'm still relatively new to learning how to build and Ruby [00:18:00] on rails, like backend development.[00:18:02]I am still in a newbie. I could technically build an app, but the code will be ugly that like, I don't have all the experience that that an experienced dev has. So. So it's actually nice to be able to work with somebody who's really strong career experienced backend developer. Like I, I I defer to him too.[00:18:21] Like we have, we actually have a lot of issues in our get hub where I built and finished a feature. It's all done. It's working tested. Good to go. And then, and then I just pass it over to him. Just, just go clean up, whatever. I just built here, like, you know, fix it, fix all the mistakes, like and keep it work in the same basically.[00:18:40]And then I get to learn from, from what he did and and so that that's been really good. So mostly I'm just sort of deferring on the technical side to him, but I'm D I'm directing him and managing like w what we're going to work on, how the is going to design, how, how it's going to function, all that kind of stuff.[00:18:56] Matt: [00:18:56] And one of the challenging roles, I think we can talk about it because I saw you [00:19:00] tweet about it is trying to find somebody to be like that. Content creator, video podcasts, blogging tutorials. Front-facing it's quite a unicorn. If I pat myself on the back here, because it's something that I do for Craig at Casos it's been a challenging, I don't know how long it's been, but it's been a challenging proposition for you.[00:19:21] How's[00:19:22] Brian: [00:19:22] that? Yeah. Yeah. I'm glad you brought that up. I did. Want to talk about that. Cause it's something that I'm looking for right now. Just generally hiring marketers in general. Right? Most marketers are really good at what they do. But I think these days when it comes to marketing, excuse me, that's why I shouldn't drink coffee while I'm in the tunnel pockets.[00:19:45]Like most marketers. Who, who, who call themselves either a freelance marketer or a full-time marketer. Yeah. Hold on. Right. You know, most marketers are, are good at what they [00:20:00] technically at what they do, whether it's writing or or using analytics or SEO, research, outreach, whatever, whatever type of marketing they do.[00:20:11] It's usually a mix of things. They're technically good at that. But right now in 2020 or 2021, B2B SAS is. Just a really, really difficult from a marketing standpoint. And I'm mainly talking about like new entry, SAS products, very early stage SAS products like mine. Right. It's just the, the competition is just insane.[00:20:36] You know, it's one thing to S to S to market and sell a service, you know, because you, you just need a handful of good customers. To, to make it a really viable business, but, but for a SAS product to break through, like really no matter how you price it, even, even if you're pricing several hundred, a customer, even up to like a thousand or two per, per customer per month, like you [00:21:00] still need a lot of customers and a lot of traffic and visibility to make it work.[00:21:05] And. And, and it just, and there's so many other things that, that go into building a SAS product tech, like technically the product and all that. So with collaborating with a marketer, what I'm finding, I had a tweet about this today, or this week is I think it's a lot more about brand than people like to admit.[00:21:26] And we think about branding, like it's logo design, or it's our colors or something like that. Or you think about brand like it's. Like it's Budweiser in, in city field or something like that, but it's, but for SAS, it's really like, what are you known for on the internet, even, even within circles. And, and pop, like podcasting is a big part of that.[00:21:47] Like I think to this day go historically across all my products, the number one. Source of new customers is hearing me on podcasts either in my own or somebody else's right. [00:22:00] Like by far. And that's one of the hardest things to even track and measure. But I know when every time I ask someone, 90% of the times, like I heard you on a podcast or I follow your podcast.[00:22:11]And and so I, that's not just podcasting specifically, but. I just think that when, when you're talking about brand, like we need to be creating really interesting, unique things for the world for our people that are different, that are worth talking about that are worth sharing. And that stuff has to be more creative today than ever like, yeah.[00:22:31] Like you can't just put out the same stuff that everybody else is putting out. Like you have to, you have to have. New ideas. You have to be advanced. You have to be out there like making arguments for something, you know, you gotta be out there you know, advancing a brand new idea. And in, in a, in a, in a way that's like visually appealing, that's fast to get, to get it.[00:22:50] Like, usually that involves, you know, video and and things like that. And so. So what I'm looking[00:22:56] Matt: [00:22:56] at, can't be just one thing. It can't be one thing anymore, right? Like it [00:23:00] has to be the podcast. It has to be like at minimum it's podcasts, YouTube channel newsletter, blog, blogs sort of fell to fourth place recently, but still like, you need to do it.[00:23:12] And it's almost like one of those thankless you know, like those thankless. Jobs or, or whatever, like you have to keep producing it. Even if people aren't tuning in. This is the funny thing with audiences and content that I've learned over the last few years is. You better keep doing it, even if they're not tuning in, they want to know that you're still doing it because if you stop, oh, if you stop that podcast, they're going to judge you.[00:23:39] And they're going to say like, you didn't do it. Like, even if they're not listening, they know, I know Brian's doing a podcast. That's all I need to say that he's doing it. And he's putting in the[00:23:47] Brian: [00:23:47] effort, you know? It's so, it's true. What you're saying, because like, Like I said, like, podcasts are like impossible to track.[00:23:54] Like you could sort of see how many listeners you're getting, but you don't know how many of those listeners are turning into customers [00:24:00] or leads or whatever, whatever it might be. Or listeners referring other customers. Like that's actually usually how it happens. Right. You know, you can't really track that, but I know for a fact, I have this other podcast, I haven't done it in a while.[00:24:13] It was called a productized podcast is basically an interview show that I've had, it was off and on from my 2017 into 2018. And a little bit in 19, I think. And, and I would go off and on with it. I would do like six, eight months of it, and then I'd do a hiatus and then another six or eight months. And then it's, it's weird.[00:24:34] But I look at the sales graph on like my productized course and my other stuff. And sales go up when I'm podcasting and sales sort of trend down when I'm not podcasting. Like, I don't know, like the trend is definitely there though, you know? Yeah.[00:24:48]Matt: [00:24:48] I want to put on girls' hat for a second here. He would tell you, Brian, why don't you just do the podcast, the YouTube, the content for zip message and hire out.[00:24:59] The [00:25:00] development and the management of like the product itself. So why not? Why not[00:25:05] Brian: [00:25:05] do that? It's a good CR you know, it's funny, I, I sort of joke about this lately. Like the more that I get into product development and, and code it's like the worst I am at marketing and the less interested I am in doing marketing work and content stuff.[00:25:20] So. That's basically it, it's not that I have no interest in it. Like, I, I do enjoy hopping on the mix and getting on podcasts, but I don't enjoy the, the, the grind of, of especially video. I don't mind going on camera once in a while. But I that's, that's one thing is the actual production work. I'm not that interested in doing, I don't, I don't think I'm very good at it.[00:25:42] I could hack through something, but I'm not a professional video person. I'm not also, I'm also very much not interested in being a personal brand. You know, I know that gets, that term gets thrown out, thrown around a lot. And I think to a certain extent, everybody is a [00:26:00] personal brand, whether you like it or want to be or not.[00:26:02]And I'm not denying that, but the company that I'm trying to build right now is a small software company. I don't want it to be. The Brian castle show. I want it to be, we make awesome products and, and we put really cool stuff out into the world, you know? Yeah. That will involve people like, you know, my, my team myself on camera on microphone, but it should be more about the product and the ideas or the questions we're asking to the world then Then then just, just me all the time,[00:26:36] Matt: [00:26:36] you know?[00:26:36] Yeah. I feel, you know, again, it just kind of resonating with what we're doing at Casos and, and, you know, although Craig might not openly say it, like, I think part of the strategy behind it was that because he hosted the audience podcast, which is from Casos and now I largely do that along with a YouTube channel and all this stuff, and it allows that separation.[00:26:59] For [00:27:00] him to just show up on podcasts and show up on the audience podcast where we just recorded one before you and I started jokingly. Like he only shows up when he buys something, right? So we're going through this, this acquisition of podium another podcast hosting company. And when he, we acquired three clips, he came on the show and we talked about like broad visions and where the company's going.[00:27:20] But then the day-to-day is me. And, and on the YouTube channel, I'm largely showing off the products and where we're going with the product. And it allows that separation. So, I totally get it. I'm[00:27:31] Brian: [00:27:31] a different guy and hire for, and the other thing is I really, really love working on product. I like that.[00:27:37] That is, that is me. That is what I do. You know, people might see stuff that I do on like, Productized services and other stuff that that's, that hangs around on the internet for, for many years. But honestly, what I am is I'm I designed software products and that's, that's what I, I love to talk to customers and take customer feedback and [00:28:00] plan and build features that that's what I like to do, you know?[00:28:02] And that, that takes so much time and energy. That there's no way I could do the production, but the content grind and do[00:28:11] Matt: [00:28:11] that, you know, spearhead right back into zip message. And I want to talk about some of the, the, the challenges there in some of these wins that you've had. Let's start specifically with the way you onboarded zip message.[00:28:24] I think I heard you talk about this on your podcast with Jordan. Like, the way that you've done surveys, this isn't the first time you've done this, right? Like you had this onboarding. It's not just, Hey, I take an email. Off they go and they're in the system and then you'll, you'll reach out to them when it's ready.[00:28:39] But you asked a systematic questions here, like, who are you? And you had one specific question. It's not, is it, what are you going to do with the product? Right. When you get access to it, it was a question like that. Like tell me exactly and what you're going to do with it.[00:28:52] Brian: [00:28:52] Yeah. Let's see. Let me pull up one of them today.[00:28:55] See what, see what I actually had on there. So, so [00:29:00] basically the way that it works is you today, you come to the homepage and I haven't yet opened it up for anybody to sign up for zip message. You have to sign up for the early access list. First, you know, you put in your email now, now you're on the email list.[00:29:11] And then on the back end of that, it takes you to this survey page. And the questions on the survey are First, how did, how did you hear about, does that message and vast majority of them say your pockets? What does your business do? What's your role or job title? I like that too, to understand, like who, what do they call themselves?[00:29:29] Right? Are, are they a founder? Are they a marketer? Are they whoever a manager, right. And then in which situations do you prefer to, this is specific to that message, but which situations do you prefer to communicate asynchronously and with who? So I want to start to hear like, and what I'm asking there is how do you currently communicate asynchronously, right?[00:29:49] Not like, would you do this or that in the future, but like H how are you currently doing it? Or have done it in the past. I get a mix of different use cases there. And then which tools. If [00:30:00] any, do you currently use for recording, sharing, receiving video messages? Again, I'm, I'm trying to understand their current or past behavior, not like, would you use this tool in the future?[00:30:11] And then the last one here is how do you think zip message might help you and, and be specific? And so that's where I start to try to get at like, You just told me that you're using these other tools. You just told me that you do a synchronous in these, in these other ways. Why are you even looking at zip message right now?[00:30:30] Right? Like what, what is it about it that you, that you hope would, would be helpful for you? Right.[00:30:35] Matt: [00:30:35] Are you usually this information to reinvest into the product? Or are you at the, at least in the early days saying, you know what, this person, they just might not be. Really, and they might be kicking tires, right?[00:30:46] The old sales term, they might just be kicking tires. Is that what you're trying to do here?[00:30:50] Brian: [00:30:50] It's mostly just research into the market, you know? Cause I started this survey and this list before, before I even really started building it or as I was building it. And it's still up there [00:31:00] today. So, so really I'm just trying to understand like who, who are the people who are interested in this thing that I'm building and, and what are their commonalities?[00:31:07] So, so I have the survey comes into my email, but it also feeds into a spreadsheet. I've done some like, like taking all the data in the spreadsheet, trying to. You know, group, group it like, okay, this percentage of people are in client services. This percentage are in SAS. This percentage are loom users.[00:31:25] This percentage are not, or, or they're using some other tool. Right. And I'm trying to see where the patterns are. And then that helps me understand, like, I've already done this, right? Like the homepage on zip message. Now I've gone through probably three iterations on the whole site already, just in the last couple of months.[00:31:43] And. The F the very first version was just sort of like my gut idea for this new, this new product idea. And after getting feedback from surveys like this, I realized like, oh, there's a whole lot that was wrong in the way that I wrote and presented the [00:32:00] idea. And there's all these other really common things that people latch onto.[00:32:03] I was talking about like the, the the, the conversational aspect of it, the, the threaded conversation. That was not front and center in my first take at it. And that quickly became the thing. So now it's like this big animated thing on the, on the top of the homepage, that's shows you that the conversation.[00:32:21] Yeah.[00:32:22] Matt: [00:32:22] You can get a feel for, you know, if everybody's saying, let's say loom, we'll use them as an example. Again, you can bucket and find trends in pricing in their own marketing, you know, and you can quickly find out if somebody says loom, like, let's say six months from now and you say, okay, loom user comes in.[00:32:38] They might expect a free plan. Cause loom has a five minute free thing and you kind of understand. From a, you know, whatever churn and conversion ratio you can say, okay, a hundred people sign up looking for loom. I know that these people are gonna be the hardest ones to sell. Cause there might be expecting free and we don't have free here, so we can kind of gauge our interests.[00:32:59] And you just got to this[00:33:00] [00:32:59] Brian: [00:32:59] stage right now, you know, we're still early on, we're recording this when I'm only about five months into zip message. So at this stage, it's, it's really more, more about. What, what should I prioritize? And what should I not prioritize in terms of which things to build, who, who should we be speaking to on the marketing site?[00:33:20]That, that's what I'm looking for in, in the surveys. And then I, and then I do read all the surveys and then I invite a lot of them to calls and I, and, and the surveys reading, what they wrote is a, is a way for me to understand, like, I have a few hundred of these people. I can't talk to all of them. I shouldn't talk to all of them.[00:33:38] I need to know who are the best people from this group that I, that I should be talking to and, and reading their responses helps me kind of narrow that down.[00:33:47] Matt: [00:33:47] This looks like the, and I don't mean any offense by this of your past products, but this seems like the most simplistic, yet powerful tool that you've built.[00:33:58] Right? Like, I feel like from what I've seen [00:34:00] you launch. Interface wise branding wise. Like I get it. It makes total sense. I understand the use case, the user interface. Like I was just saying, it's super easy to understand, you know, what you're going to press in order to get a result. It looks like the most lightweight, yet most impactful product you've ever you've ever built in a short amount of time.[00:34:22] Is that yeah.[00:34:25] Brian: [00:34:25] Yeah. Really? That's what I'm going for with this To be honest. I didn't, I didn't know. Again, it's super new. I didn't know that, like right now you can call it a pretty horizontal product. It, it, I'm already seeing like many different use cases and different types of customers who were interested in using it.[00:34:44] And once I saw that sort of horizontal nature start to. Reveal itself that got me a little bit worried about zit message. You might've heard on the podcast with Jordan. Like I, I was starting to say like, how can I niche this down? How can I talk to this [00:35:00] niche or that niche, and then really make that message, the tool for whatever coaches or teachers or podcasters or whatever it might be.[00:35:08]I explored that a little bit, but at the end, but I've come around since then to say, like for right now it just is horizontal. And, and we're going to see where this goes. Like it has, you know, a bunch of first customers right now. We'll see how this evolves over the rest of the year. And then if, if there is.[00:35:27] One or two groups that emerge of like, these are the best customers, then maybe we'll double down on that, but maybe not, maybe we'll, it'll just be horizontal. And then we'll have like niche use case pages on the site and stuff like that, but I'm sort of still still exploring. And there's so much, it's a very simple product in terms of it.[00:35:48] It basically does one thing really well, this asynchronous conversation, but within that, there are so many little details. We're not even close to having built everything [00:36:00] that we need to be building. So it's like, yeah.[00:36:02] Matt: [00:36:02] It's of many products and, and this is the challenge, right? This is going to be the challenge for you.[00:36:09]You know, moving forward, I don't know of many, you know, paid for products. In other words, a customer has to go and pay for it that really can survive the simplicity of where the product. You know, starts off. Look at loom as an example, my God, there's like 50 billion things that it does now. I'm just like, I don't need all this.[00:36:31] And what happens is the customer like myself goes, I don't, I don't need all of these things, you know, popping out at me telling me what I should be doing. Like inviting collaborate. Like I don't need all that stuff. Where is the product that, let me just record that video and quickly share it. I guess the challenge is, is once you start getting to a certain.[00:36:52]User amount of users, capacity network, capacity, storage capacity. I don't know what the costs are internally, but then it's like, [00:37:00] how do we monetize this play? So that's another simple note is the only product I know that has survived, like being simple. As a product, but they're also not charging for it and it's owned by automatic.[00:37:11] So there's a billion dollars behind it. It doesn't matter.[00:37:13] Brian: [00:37:13] Yeah. You know, task managers are just, yeah. You gotta, you gotta have huge pockets to make that work. Same thing with loom. They're, they have a very generous, free plan. And it is difficult for someone like me to compete with them, you know, just be perfectly honest.[00:37:27]And, and I thought about doing free, not close to the idea someday, but right now it's not, we're not doing a free plan. Yeah. And you know, we're, we are differentiating in certain key ways that, that a certain set of customers seem, seem to be perfectly fine with, you know, and I'm still experimenting with different pricing, but it's But it has paying customers already and it's growing.[00:37:50]So we'll see. I, wasn't going to say the the, the simplicity thing is hard. Because, and I think this goes back to like choosing to get into zip message coming from process kit. Right? Cause one of the, [00:38:00] one of the challenges with process kit was like, it started getting first, very first customers like that.[00:38:08] Just a very small handful of first paying customers within like six, seven months or so after, after breaking ground on, on the code really call it like eight or nine months. If you include the early research but it wasn't until well, over a year of building features before process kicked got actually like really useful for people.[00:38:26]Cause cause that product is so much more complex, you know, complex that like you can't just have a glorified to-do list. As a, as a process tool, you know, there's, there's no reason to pay for that. When you could just use any other to-do list, you have to have the automations, the conditional logic, the, the, the reason why people want to use like smart SLPs, which is what process kit does.[00:38:52] We need a really, really robust Zapier integration and all this different kind of stuff. It took well over a year to get there. And then even [00:39:00] into the second year, there were a lot of important. Features that, that added value in that. And then that's where the, where the customer base, you know, likes to it has that like automations people who are super into auto automating everything in their business, they love process kit, but like, yeah, it took a good year and a half to really have a product to give them, you know, whereas like zip message.[00:39:23] It was, I was able to build, I guess, call it an MVP. Within a couple of months, And and now we're just trying to refine and build that, build that[00:39:32] Matt: [00:39:32] out. Yeah. And you can see the excitement. Like I can, I can, obviously, if you're watching the video, you see the excitement, but if like I can hear the excitement when you talk about it and your other podcasts.[00:39:43] And when I see you tweet about it I can always tell the kind of good mood you're in when I see your Twitter, when I see your tweets coming out, but even go down to like the branding. And like your approach to this, like the branding stuff that I put out publicly. You don't,[00:39:57] Brian: [00:39:57] you don't see me like throwing chairs in here the rest of the day, right?[00:40:01] [00:40:00] Matt: [00:40:01] No, but it, it, it comes across and like your approach to this product. I can tell that you're, you're becoming much more mature, you know, from, from when I first met you, which I probably say every time I interview a you at this point, cause like when I first met you onstage at WordCamp Providence, talking about restaurant engine, which was your, which was your original foray into SAS.[00:40:22]You know, this one is definitely something that looks like you're, you're really passionate about. Like, this will be the one that, that the history books really write a big chapter on you about you know, it[00:40:31] Brian: [00:40:31] seems like a well it's, it's funny to hear you describe that. I've have heard similar things from people like listening to the podcast and stuff.[00:40:40]And, and I, I appreciate that really. And I, I, a lot of it, I do feel, but. Also at this stage of trying many different products over the years the maturity thing I think has leads to what I actually think is pretty healthy skepticism of, of everything. I think you do need [00:41:00] to go into a new product with a lot of skepticism, you know, I'm, I'm still skeptical.[00:41:04] Like I'm still trying to understand that question. Like why, like people who are interested in that message. Like convince me, like, why are you really interested in this product? Like, why are you interested in it? I need to know that. And, and and I need to prove that and continuously, you know, it's It's just a process to, of like building confidence in like, okay, I think there's something here.[00:41:31] I think there's something here. Okay. Now I'm going to really double down investments here and, and, and that sort of stuff, you[00:41:38] Matt: [00:41:38] know, I think in a space, a final sort of final question thoughts around around this I'd imagine that. The pandemic COVID audio video, very hot spaces. Now that everyone was forced to work from home.[00:41:53]I think the video space obviously is going to be interesting. Audio is going to be interesting. But also probably quite challenging was, you know, [00:42:00] building process kit out is probably just a lot of thought. A lot of logic. You probably don't need a lot of CPU and infrastructure around this stuff.[00:42:07] Video, I'd imagine maybe a little bit more right. And storage, bandwidth, conversion, all this[00:42:12] Brian: [00:42:12] stuff. It, it definitely is more complex. I do have a great developer working with me. And I have learned a ton about handling video on the web in the last couple of months. It, it's definitely a challenge for sure.[00:42:26]There are some aspects of it that were a little bit. Easier than I, than I expected. And, and when I did some early technical research on it, it was part of, part of the reason why I decided to go into it and not be completely scared off because it's video. I started researching it a bit. I was like, oh wow.[00:42:45] We can actually do this sort of thing in browsers these days, which wasn't exactly possible even like one or two, three years ago. So that's kind of cool, but there's definitely. There, there are definitely costs in terms of bandwidth and processing of [00:43:00] videos and storage and, and playback. And there are just reliability issues of, of making sure that every time you hit record, no matter which browser you're in, it works.[00:43:10]You know, we're, we're constantly working with users to, to, to smooth that out and, and make an, and, you know, you might, you might think that everybody is using Google Chrome, everything it[00:43:21] Matt: [00:43:21] is. God, I hope[00:43:24] Brian: [00:43:24] not. You know, I'm, I'm literally seeing from from the user base, the, the small user base here, was it messaged that it's a, it's a good mix of Chrome safari Firefox.[00:43:34] You know, iOS, Android, like it's, it's a mix we've got to make them work. So that's a challenge,[00:43:40] Matt: [00:43:40] basic stuff. Brian castle zip message.com, a sync video conversations with customers and colleagues. I love the fact that you have the little arrow that points to what's. This led async to help define asynchronous, because I tell you that if I told my dad, Hey, check out this asynchronous video conversation tool, you might be like, what the hell is?[00:43:59]He's [00:44:00] not. And competent, but he might be like, what do you mean asynchronous? But he screen-sharing video sharing. He would get it. But I like how you define it there so[00:44:07] Brian: [00:44:07] that, you know, and that came out of the feedback. Because the very first, I think the very first version of the homepage, I did use the word asynchronous.[00:44:15] Maybe not in the H one, but somewhere around there. And, and I got a lot of feedback saying like, ah, I don't really know what, like literally people would ask me, like, what does asynchronous mean? And then other people would be like, I, I sorta know what it means, but I think most people don't know what that means.[00:44:30] And then, and then I backed off of it for a while. Like, oh, it's just for video conversations or video messaging, something like that. And I just didn't use the word asynchronous, but then it occurred to me that like, No, like we should own the, the term async, you know, cause that is growing in popularity.[00:44:48] Like people are starting to use it more often. So, so I want that message to be known for async conversations. But we have a little definition there for computer skills. You're [00:45:00] brand new to it. You know,[00:45:00]Matt: [00:45:00] Zip message.com. Request an invite@zipmessage.com. Brian, thanks for hanging out and talking to us today on your podcast.[00:45:07] It's your podcast at this point go, go to dot com and request an invite and maybe we'll see Brian again. Hopefully not, hopefully not. We don't see you in another six months talking about the[00:45:16] Brian: [00:45:16] product goal is to never be on that report. Again,[00:45:20] Matt: [00:45:20] it's amazing stuff. Everybody else, Matt report.com airport.com/subscribe to join the mailing list.[00:45:26] We'll see you in the next episode. ★ Support this podcast ★

It took me a while to draw out what I wanted to say in today’s monologue about our guest. This will be his 6th appearance on the show. With this episode, we’ve covered 4 different SaaS based businesses, with a handful of digital products and one service-based business that’s still running, of which, I’ve never fully interviewed him about. I really should since it’s the cashflow center he has to fund all of these business experiments he’s chasing. His name is Brian Casel and he’s trying something new, it’s called ZipMessage. It’s an asynch way to share videos with customers & colleagues. Out of everything he’s worked on, I think this will be the software project that defines his career in the software business. Just like I called it with Paul Jarvis and Fathom Analytics taking over his product world, I bet we’ll have Brian back on for a 7th time when he sells his company to Microsoft. Enjoy today’s episode! https://youtu.be/MLK9qQjRLSo Transcript [00:01:39] Matt: [00:01:39] It took me a while to draw out what I wanted to say in today’s monologue about our guests. This will be a six appearance on the show. With this episode, we’ve covered four different SAS based businesses with a handful of digital products and one service-based business. That’s still running of which I’ve never really fully interviewed them about. I really should. Since it’s the cashflow center, he has [00:02:00] to fund all of these business experiments. He’s chasing.[00:02:03] Can you guess who it is? His name is Brian Casel. He’s trying something new. It’s called zip message. It’s an async way to share videos with customers and colleagues. Out of everything he’s worked on. I think this will be the software project that defines his career in the software business.[00:02:19]Just like I called it with Paul Jarvis and fathom analytics taking over his product world. I bet we’ll have Brian back on for a seventh time when he sells this business to Microsoft. You’re listening to the Maryport a podcast for the resilient digital business builders. Subscribe to the newsletter@mattreport.com slash subscribe and follow the podcast on apple or Spotify or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Better yet. Please share this episode on your social media. We’d love more listeners around here. Okay.[00:02:46] Let’s talk to Brian and find out why he’s launching yet another product. Hey everybody. Welcome back to what I’m calling the Brian report. Brian. Oh man. Welcome back to the podcast. You’ve [00:03:00] clearly won the, a amount of recurring times on the, on the merit port show. I should just have applied for all of the products that you launch. I should just have a podcast all to yourself and everything that you have going on today.[00:03:12] We’re talking about. If that’s[00:03:13] Brian: [00:03:13] not a sign of failure, I don’t know.[00:03:15] Matt: [00:03:15] What is failure show castles here to talk about what might be another failure, the message you can find zip message@zipmessage.com. I’m going to open this up. I think a lot of people know your backstory. If they haven’t, they can listen to the half a dozen shows that you and I have already done on this podcast.[00:03:33]Why this product last time we. We chatted. You were just getting your, you were, you were getting that sort of Ruby on rails, getting your chops down on that, like learning how to build whole other platform and suddenly zip message appeared out of nowhere. How, why, when did it come about, why did you pursue it?[00:03:51] Brian: [00:03:51] Yeah. I don’t, I don’t remember exactly when our last show here on a I’ll call it Matt report aired. It must’ve been [00:04:00] probably around 2018 or 2019. I can’t believe it’s actually been that long, but you and I have chatted since then. The, so a little bit of of the timeline process kit, which is, you know, I still run and still going that product.[00:04:15] I basically started working on it really full-time in January of 2019, I kind of started planning it in 18, but really got full-time into it in January 19. Launched that to first paying customers by around June of, I want to say, yeah, 2019, and then really focused a hundred percent on that. Throughout 19 and 20 and into 20.[00:04:40] And then at the end of 2020 you know, process kit just got to the, to that place where a lot of SAS get to where, you know, a couple thousand in MRR it’s really slow to grow. It has some. You know, so some, some challenges I tried a bunch of stuff and I’m still trying some stuff, but I decided at, [00:05:00] in around December of 2020 to just take a step back and start to open my mind to like, maybe I should try another product or two or three.[00:05:12] And actually like back in, back in, you know, back in January, the idea was. Let’s let’s throw a couple of ideas at the wall and see what sticks, but there was really this one idea called zip message, which I had the idea and midway through 2020, but I, you know, I shelved it along with all the other shiny object ideas in my long list of them.[00:05:29]But I was like, let me just try this. Take a little breather from, from really pushing on process kit, put it, put the roadmap on process could a little bit on, on maintenance mode. And and I went into zip message and, you know, I really liked the idea. I was attracted to the idea because a number of different things.[00:05:46]First of all, you know, in, in a lot of ways, it’s sort of really every business that I ever get into, I’m trying to course correct from something that I learned in the, in the previous one. Right. One of the big challenges with process kit [00:06:00] has been that it’s a really big. Product, which means it’s a really big task to adopt.[00:06:05] If you’re a new customer, like it literally takes new customers a good month, at least of. Of like everyday work on their part to, to[00:06:13] Matt: [00:06:13] really, they have to appeal the process out, template it out into your system, if you will, and then engage people to, to use it. And I remember you and I chatting a lot PR you know, privately between the two of us, like, wouldn’t this be a great idea, like free templates to like kickstart that and nurture.[00:06:30] Yeah.[00:06:30] Brian: [00:06:30] And, and we have templates in there which really did help a lot in, in late 20, 20. Added the templates and put them like front and center in the onboarding experience. So actually since then we’ve had, you know, more customers, self convert without, without the heavy customer support load that it did have for a while there.[00:06:45]And that, that continues, I guess it’s just super slow, you know, to, to grow and, and become a thing. And for those that don’t know, like in the background, I also have audience ops, which I’m not super involved in day to day, but that, that is the other business that I have that, that sort of.[00:07:00] [00:06:59] Funds all the runway for, for getting into SAS. So it gives me a little bit of space and time to be able to explore different ideas which is, which is really nice. But with zip messaging, I really liked it because the first things that really attracted to me as the business idea is that it’s so fast to get value from, you know, like again, process kit is like, you got to really commit like a good month to get, to really start to get value.[00:07:23] Like you’re automating operations in your business. Whereas with zip message. You could sign up and have an, an asynchronous video call with one of the person and you just got. A bit of value from this tool. Is that something[00:07:36] Matt: [00:07:36] you, you sort of stumbled upon? I know countless products, services and stuff that you’ve, that you’ve gone through.[00:07:42] And I, and I want to kind of break that down of like what your best, most valuable lesson is thus far in your career, but will you like sort of. You know, midway through or three quarters way through here with process get going. You know what I think I missed, I think it was that I think it was that quick, easy, instant gratification to a [00:08:00] customer.[00:08:00] I feel like that’s what I’m missing and, oh, that’s right. I get this thing called zip message over here that I was thinking about doing[00:08:07] Brian: [00:08:07] learned. It it’s, it’s never just one thing. There’s always, you know, there’s, there’s really probably like 10 big learnings that I’ve taken out of process kit. And some things that I, that I learned.[00:08:17] That, that we did really well, but yeah, that was one of them definitely is that activation adoption sort of thing. The most common , churn reason that I hear from people is you know, really it’s so more of a challenge of, of getting new people to adopt it. Cause cause once people do do get like sign on the, the lifetime is really great and they actually do expand that they add, you know, team members and stuff like that.[00:08:41]But they, they basically stopped like the people who turn, they, they basically stop using it after a few months. So, you know, obviously there there’s. There might be some like product market fit issues there, but there is a core customer base that is like power users on it and they really love it.[00:08:55] So it’s sort of like a question of like, what do I do with that?[00:08:59]Matt: [00:08:59] This is a [00:09:00] reaction to just like, it’s not even just whatever audio video tools to do apps and like all these other spaces. This is just everything. Every product in the world competing with that I need to, it needs to be instant or the customer.[00:09:15] They’re out. Like it doesn’t matter what kind of tool you’re launching[00:09:17] Brian: [00:09:17] here. Yeah. The thing that I saw with zip message that, that got me really excited. Number one, was that like speed to get getting value from the tool. Number two is it’s, it’s heading into a space of software tools. That is, is not brand new.[00:09:33] So like loom is probably the most common call it competitor. And, and which, you know, lots of people use, I use loom as well. And so this idea of like video recording, video messaging tools, the thing that I saw with loom, and this was actually the, the way the idea for zip message came about was that I would commonly be on a customer support call for process kit, and ask the customer, Hey, I [00:10:00] need to see what you’re seeing.[00:10:00] Can you record your screen for me? Can you, can you go use a tool like, like loom or, or record your screen and send me a Dropbox link or whatever you might do. And, you know, that’s a lot to ask for, for customers. Like maybe they do use loom, maybe they don’t. But it’s just friction there. Right? So I wanted to, like, I, I started thinking like, man, there’s gotta be an easy way for me to just send somebody a link.[00:10:22] They click it, they come to a page, they could start recording their screen. And that was the original idea for zip message. And that’s what it is. You can, you can do that, but, but what it quickly evolved into was okay, they could re it’s easy for somebody else to record, but I can record my response right back to them.[00:10:42] And now we have this asynchronous conversation on, on video or just audio camera, screen screenshot, or just text. And now is literally flowing down the page, like a conversation. But we’re asynchronous. We don’t have to book a live zoom call, you know? I don’t have to [00:11:00] ask somebody to get on their calendar, all that.[00:11:02] It’s just like, here’s a link. Let’s talk when it’s good for both of us. And, and it just flows right down the page. And, and that idea of the asynchronous conversation turned out to be the thing that people are starting to really latch on to, you know, because. And that was a little bit to my surprise, you know?[00:11:20]And, and I’m finding all these other use cases. My original use case was like customer support scenarios, but. All these other use cases are coming up like, oh, I want to, I want to use it to, to take requests for my podcast. I wanna, I want to use it to, you know, collaborate with my team, my freelancers, talk to my customers, or use it in a sales situation to have asynchronous video chats with, with sales prospects, hiring, like getting, you know, video responses from applicants and stuff like that.[00:11:49] So, I’m sort of fielding all these different use cases right now, but it’s, they’re all interested in, I, I keep asking people, like, why are you interested in zit message? Why, why don’t you just use a loom? [00:12:00] Right. And, and they all come back saying, this is the one that has that, that conversation, like a threaded conversation view.[00:12:08] And so we’re really sort of leaning into that. And I’m pretty excited about it. I I’ve been. Ha having conversations with, with customers like using zip message. It’s a[00:12:18] Matt: [00:12:18] really cool[00:12:19] Brian: [00:12:19] tool. Totally. It’s a really cool way to actually communicate,[00:12:23] Matt: [00:12:23] you know? Yeah. Before we keep drilling into the product and how you’re approaching it, , what has been the most valuable piece of education to Excel your career?[00:12:33] I’m going to bet that it’s learning how to. Amy, you always know, you’ve always known how to develop, but I feel like this progression into learning Ruby on rails and becoming a a better developer has been something that has really skyrocketed your ability to launch and iterate and feel more confident in products.[00:12:52] Is that, is that true?[00:12:53] Brian: [00:12:53] A hundred percent. Yes. Yeah. I love it. And it has skyrocketed my enjoyment of what I do [00:13:00] with, with products. Yeah, it has really, really removed such a huge barrier. Cause I’ve, I, I have been a front end dev my whole career. I’ve been a designer. I am a designer.[00:13:11]And, and when I say designer, I, you know, as, as any designer knows that that doesn’t mean. Picking colors and picking typography. Like that’s just one detail of it. What you’re really doing is as a designer, you’re solving a problem. And so when you’re designing for the web, especially if you’re designing software, you’re really designing the whole system from the way that it works.[00:13:34] In the database to the way that the user interacts on the, on the screen. And for years, I, you know, probably one of your mat reports, we talked about like ops calendar when I was doing that. And that was 2017. Yeah. Back then I couldn’t develop backend. So I had to hire out. Help with that. Right now, I, I also have a developer that I work with them and we can work really fast together.[00:13:57] Another big benefit of being a developer myself [00:14:00] is I can collaborate on such a deeper, more productive level with him. He’s in India and we, and we are hashing out every single feature together. Not to mention working You know, like two tracks, like we’re, we’re able to ship twice as many features in a week because it’s both me and him working on it.[00:14:20] Yeah.[00:14:20] Matt: [00:14:20] So, I I’d say also one of your super powers, it’s kind of funny. Not to get sidetracked on, on products. I’m looking at our 2017 episode on the Maryport building ops calendar. And one of the channel under the challenges bullet point section there’s here’s a bullet point. It says there’s a side plugin business that is also being created from custom tools by audience, which I think was like your opt-in forms on WordPress, the content upgrades.[00:14:44] Yeah, it just goes to show like all of these different things that you would fragment and spider out too.[00:14:49] Brian: [00:14:49] That one was funny because we had that’s a pair of, of WordPress plugins. And we, you know, some, some customers bought it, but we mainly used it for clients and audience ops. And then I think it was [00:15:00] around 2018.[00:15:00] I ended up selling those to liquid web. Which came about really randomly, but but it was nice to sort of just[00:15:07] Matt: [00:15:07] let those go. I’d say also one of, one of your super powers, which might often get overlooked is your ability. And this is just something that I’ve admired your ability to do. And I just don’t know if I have the patience like you to do it, but as hiring people is higher as being able to find and hire and train people up to.[00:15:25]To help you develop these, these products. I think that’s a skill set that is very difficult to hone over time. I’ve seen plenty of blog posts that are like, here’s all you have to do, make a couple of test projects and hire and go through 12 of them and hire that one person. It’s like, it never works for me.[00:15:41] Works for you. You[00:15:42] Brian: [00:15:42] know what? It’s interesting you say that because I think, I think I’ve done okay with hiring over the years. In, in, in certain types of hiring, but, but now I’m in a different place with trying to build a small team to grow this SAS company that I’m working on [00:16:00] now. Right. So, and, and that I’m finding a lot more challenging to hire for.[00:16:04]I’m still figuring it out. I like, it’s literally on my plate this week, like a problem that I haven’t figured out yet. So, the what, what I’ve always felt pretty comfortable with is. Okay. I’ve got a service. I figured it, the process for delivering the service. I’ve documented the process. I set up the systems.[00:16:23] Now I need to hire people to plug into the process. And carry out specific roles. That’s that’s what audience ops is. We’ve got a team of about 25 people, writers, copy editors managers, assistants, and they, they just kind of carry out their tasks. And that has grown to where we have like a, a higher level manager.[00:16:41] We’ve got a sales person, we’ve got, you know, different stuff. So you know, that, that. I think, I think I’m an okay manager. Maybe not a great manager. I don’t know that. I’m great. Yeah. Yeah. Like building a a strong team culture something I w I always want to try and get better at, but, but my team there is, has [00:17:00] been with me for many of them four or five, six years, you know?[00:17:03]Yeah. And, and that’s gone, that’s gone pretty good. And developers I’ve, I’ve had generally pretty good success with sometimes it’s initially hard to, to find the right person who has the right skillset, but being technical now makes it so much easier, frankly. I haven’t done it that much because I’ve just been working with this one developer.[00:17:19] Who’s been awesome.[00:17:21] Matt: [00:17:21] One of the challenges for me. When I’m looking to, to work with a developer especially in the past is I feel like I should be finding somebody who just cares as much. About the product and like the vision and the future as I do about like, whatever product that was, or is that I was working on, that was a lesson that I learned really early.[00:17:42] Like, man, you got to just pump the brakes on that. A lot of people just want the task, want to get it done and do a good job, but they’re not going to care about the long-term vision of where you want to go. Is that something that you wrestle with at[00:17:54] Brian: [00:17:54] all? With developers. We were just talking about how I’m, I’m still relatively new to learning how to build and Ruby [00:18:00] on rails, like backend development.[00:18:02]I am still in a newbie. I could technically build an app, but the code will be ugly that like, I don’t have all the experience that that an experienced dev has. So. So it’s actually nice to be able to work with somebody who’s really strong career experienced backend developer. Like I, I I defer to him too.[00:18:21] Like we have, we actually have a lot of issues in our get hub where I built and finished a feature. It’s all done. It’s working tested. Good to go. And then, and then I just pass it over to him. Just, just go clean up, whatever. I just built here, like, you know, fix it, fix all the mistakes, like and keep it work in the same basically.[00:18:40]And then I get to learn from, from what he did and and so that that’s been really good. So mostly I’m just sort of deferring on the technical side to him, but I’m D I’m directing him and managing like w what we’re going to work on, how the is going to design, how, how it’s going to function, all that kind of stuff.[00:18:56] Matt: [00:18:56] And one of the challenging roles, I think we can talk about it because I saw you [00:19:00] tweet about it is trying to find somebody to be like that. Content creator, video podcasts, blogging tutorials. Front-facing it’s quite a unicorn. If I pat myself on the back here, because it’s something that I do for Craig at Casos it’s been a challenging, I don’t know how long it’s been, but it’s been a challenging proposition for you.[00:19:21] How’s[00:19:22] Brian: [00:19:22] that? Yeah. Yeah. I’m glad you brought that up. I did. Want to talk about that. Cause it’s something that I’m looking for right now. Just generally hiring marketers in general. Right? Most marketers are really good at what they do. But I think these days when it comes to marketing, excuse me, that’s why I shouldn’t drink coffee while I’m in the tunnel pockets.[00:19:45]Like most marketers. Who, who, who call themselves either a freelance marketer or a full-time marketer. Yeah. Hold on. Right. You know, most marketers are, are good at what they [00:20:00] technically at what they do, whether it’s writing or or using analytics or SEO, research, outreach, whatever, whatever type of marketing they do.[00:20:11] It’s usually a mix of things. They’re technically good at that. But right now in 2020 or 2021, B2B SAS is. Just a really, really difficult from a marketing standpoint. And I’m mainly talking about like new entry, SAS products, very early stage SAS products like mine. Right. It’s just the, the competition is just insane.[00:20:36] You know, it’s one thing to S to S to market and sell a service, you know, because you, you just need a handful of good customers. To, to make it a really viable business, but, but for a SAS product to break through, like really no matter how you price it, even, even if you’re pricing several hundred, a customer, even up to like a thousand or two per, per customer per month, like you [00:21:00] still need a lot of customers and a lot of traffic and visibility to make it work.[00:21:05] And. And, and it just, and there’s so many other things that, that go into building a SAS product tech, like technically the product and all that. So with collaborating with a marketer, what I’m finding, I had a tweet about this today, or this week is I think it’s a lot more about brand than people like to admit.[00:21:26] And we think about branding, like it’s logo design, or it’s our colors or something like that. Or you think about brand like it’s. Like it’s Budweiser in, in city field or something like that, but it’s, but for SAS, it’s really like, what are you known for on the internet, even, even within circles. And, and pop, like podcasting is a big part of that.[00:21:47] Like I think to this day go historically across all my products, the number one. Source of new customers is hearing me on podcasts either in my own or somebody else’s right. [00:22:00] Like by far. And that’s one of the hardest things to even track and measure. But I know when every time I ask someone, 90% of the times, like I heard you on a podcast or I follow your podcast.[00:22:11]And and so I, that’s not just podcasting specifically, but. I just think that when, when you’re talking about brand, like we need to be creating really interesting, unique things for the world for our people that are different, that are worth talking about that are worth sharing. And that stuff has to be more creative today than ever like, yeah.[00:22:31] Like you can’t just put out the same stuff that everybody else is putting out. Like you have to, you have to have. New ideas. You have to be advanced. You have to be out there like making arguments for something, you know, you gotta be out there you know, advancing a brand new idea. And in, in a, in a, in a way that’s like visually appealing, that’s fast to get, to get it.[00:22:50] Like, usually that involves, you know, video and and things like that. And so. So what I’m looking[00:22:56] Matt: [00:22:56] at, can’t be just one thing. It can’t be one thing anymore, right? Like it [00:23:00] has to be the podcast. It has to be like at minimum it’s podcasts, YouTube channel newsletter, blog, blogs sort of fell to fourth place recently, but still like, you need to do it.[00:23:12] And it’s almost like one of those thankless you know, like those thankless. Jobs or, or whatever, like you have to keep producing it. Even if people aren’t tuning in. This is the funny thing with audiences and content that I’ve learned over the last few years is. You better keep doing it, even if they’re not tuning in, they want to know that you’re still doing it because if you stop, oh, if you stop that podcast, they’re going to judge you.[00:23:39] And they’re going to say like, you didn’t do it. Like, even if they’re not listening, they know, I know Brian’s doing a podcast. That’s all I need to say that he’s doing it. And he’s putting in the[00:23:47] Brian: [00:23:47] effort, you know? It’s so, it’s true. What you’re saying, because like, Like I said, like, podcasts are like impossible to track.[00:23:54] Like you could sort of see how many listeners you’re getting, but you don’t know how many of those listeners are turning into customers [00:24:00] or leads or whatever, whatever it might be. Or listeners referring other customers. Like that’s actually usually how it happens. Right. You know, you can’t really track that, but I know for a fact, I have this other podcast, I haven’t done it in a while.[00:24:13] It was called a productized podcast is basically an interview show that I’ve had, it was off and on from my 2017 into 2018. And a little bit in 19, I think. And, and I would go off and on with it. I would do like six, eight months of it, and then I’d do a hiatus and then another six or eight months. And then it’s, it’s weird.[00:24:34] But I look at the sales graph on like my productized course and my other stuff. And sales go up when I’m podcasting and sales sort of trend down when I’m not podcasting. Like, I don’t know, like the trend is definitely there though, you know? Yeah.[00:24:48]Matt: [00:24:48] I want to put on girls’ hat for a second here. He would tell you, Brian, why don’t you just do the podcast, the YouTube, the content for zip message and hire out.[00:24:59] The [00:25:00] development and the management of like the product itself. So why not? Why not[00:25:05] Brian: [00:25:05] do that? It’s a good CR you know, it’s funny, I, I sort of joke about this lately. Like the more that I get into product development and, and code it’s like the worst I am at marketing and the less interested I am in doing marketing work and content stuff.[00:25:20] So. That’s basically it, it’s not that I have no interest in it. Like, I, I do enjoy hopping on the mix and getting on podcasts, but I don’t enjoy the, the, the grind of, of especially video. I don’t mind going on camera once in a while. But I that’s, that’s one thing is the actual production work. I’m not that interested in doing, I don’t, I don’t think I’m very good at it.[00:25:42] I could hack through something, but I’m not a professional video person. I’m not also, I’m also very much not interested in being a personal brand. You know, I know that gets, that term gets thrown out, thrown around a lot. And I think to a certain extent, everybody is a [00:26:00] personal brand, whether you like it or want to be or not.[00:26:02]And I’m not denying that, but the company that I’m trying to build right now is a small software company. I don’t want it to be. The Brian castle show. I want it to be, we make awesome products and, and we put really cool stuff out into the world, you know? Yeah. That will involve people like, you know, my, my team myself on camera on microphone, but it should be more about the product and the ideas or the questions we’re asking to the world then Then then just, just me all the time,[00:26:36] Matt: [00:26:36] you know?[00:26:36] Yeah. I feel, you know, again, it just kind of resonating with what we’re doing at Casos and, and, you know, although Craig might not openly say it, like, I think part of the strategy behind it was that because he hosted the audience podcast, which is from Casos and now I largely do that along with a YouTube channel and all this stuff, and it allows that separation.[00:26:59] For [00:27:00] him to just show up on podcasts and show up on the audience podcast where we just recorded one before you and I started jokingly. Like he only shows up when he buys something, right? So we’re going through this, this acquisition of podium another podcast hosting company. And when he, we acquired three clips, he came on the show and we talked about like broad visions and where the company’s going.[00:27:20] But then the day-to-day is me. And, and on the YouTube channel, I’m largely showing off the products and where we’re going with the product. And it allows that separation. So, I totally get it. I’m[00:27:31] Brian: [00:27:31] a different guy and hire for, and the other thing is I really, really love working on product. I like that.[00:27:37] That is, that is me. That is what I do. You know, people might see stuff that I do on like, Productized services and other stuff that that’s, that hangs around on the internet for, for many years. But honestly, what I am is I’m I designed software products and that’s, that’s what I, I love to talk to customers and take customer feedback and [00:28:00] plan and build features that that’s what I like to do, you know?[00:28:02] And that, that takes so much time and energy. That there’s no way I could do the production, but the content grind and do[00:28:11] Matt: [00:28:11] that, you know, spearhead right back into zip message. And I want to talk about some of the, the, the challenges there in some of these wins that you’ve had. Let’s start specifically with the way you onboarded zip message.[00:28:24] I think I heard you talk about this on your podcast with Jordan. Like, the way that you’ve done surveys, this isn’t the first time you’ve done this, right? Like you had this onboarding. It’s not just, Hey, I take an email. Off they go and they’re in the system and then you’ll, you’ll reach out to them when it’s ready.[00:28:39] But you asked a systematic questions here, like, who are you? And you had one specific question. It’s not, is it, what are you going to do with the product? Right. When you get access to it, it was a question like that. Like tell me exactly and what you’re going to do with it.[00:28:52] Brian: [00:28:52] Yeah. Let’s see. Let me pull up one of them today.[00:28:55] See what, see what I actually had on there. So, so [00:29:00] basically the way that it works is you today, you come to the homepage and I haven’t yet opened it up for anybody to sign up for zip message. You have to sign up for the early access list. First, you know, you put in your email now, now you’re on the email list.[00:29:11] And then on the back end of that, it takes you to this survey page. And the questions on the survey are First, how did, how did you hear about, does that message and vast majority of them say your pockets? What does your business do? What’s your role or job title? I like that too, to understand, like who, what do they call themselves?[00:29:29] Right? Are, are they a founder? Are they a marketer? Are they whoever a manager, right. And then in which situations do you prefer to, this is specific to that message, but which situations do you prefer to communicate asynchronously and with who? So I want to start to hear like, and what I’m asking there is how do you currently communicate asynchronously, right?[00:29:49] Not like, would you do this or that in the future, but like H how are you currently doing it? Or have done it in the past. I get a mix of different use cases there. And then which tools. If [00:30:00] any, do you currently use for recording, sharing, receiving video messages? Again, I’m, I’m trying to understand their current or past behavior, not like, would you use this tool in the future?[00:30:11] And then the last one here is how do you think zip message might help you and, and be specific? And so that’s where I start to try to get at like, You just told me that you’re using these other tools. You just told me that you do a synchronous in these, in these other ways. Why are you even looking at zip message right now?[00:30:30] Right? Like what, what is it about it that you, that you hope would, would be helpful for you? Right.[00:30:35] Matt: [00:30:35] Are you usually this information to reinvest into the product? Or are you at the, at least in the early days saying, you know what, this person, they just might not be. Really, and they might be kicking tires, right?[00:30:46] The old sales term, they might just be kicking tires. Is that what you’re trying to do here?[00:30:50] Brian: [00:30:50] It’s mostly just research into the market, you know? Cause I started this survey and this list before, before I even really started building it or as I was building it. And it’s still up there [00:31:00] today. So, so really I’m just trying to understand like who, who are the people who are interested in this thing that I’m building and, and what are their commonalities?[00:31:07] So, so I have the survey comes into my email, but it also feeds into a spreadsheet. I’ve done some like, like taking all the data in the spreadsheet, trying to. You know, group, group it like, okay, this percentage of people are in client services. This percentage are in SAS. This percentage are loom users.[00:31:25] This percentage are not, or, or they’re using some other tool. Right. And I’m trying to see where the patterns are. And then that helps me understand, like, I’ve already done this, right? Like the homepage on zip message. Now I’ve gone through probably three iterations on the whole site already, just in the last couple of months.[00:31:43] And. The F the very first version was just sort of like my gut idea for this new, this new product idea. And after getting feedback from surveys like this, I realized like, oh, there’s a whole lot that was wrong in the way that I wrote and presented the [00:32:00] idea. And there’s all these other really common things that people latch onto.[00:32:03] I was talking about like the, the the, the conversational aspect of it, the, the threaded conversation. That was not front and center in my first take at it. And that quickly became the thing. So now it’s like this big animated thing on the, on the top of the homepage, that’s shows you that the conversation.[00:32:21] Yeah.[00:32:22] Matt: [00:32:22] You can get a feel for, you know, if everybody’s saying, let’s say loom, we’ll use them as an example. Again, you can bucket and find trends in pricing in their own marketing, you know, and you can quickly find out if somebody says loom, like, let’s say six months from now and you say, okay, loom user comes in.[00:32:38] They might expect a free plan. Cause loom has a five minute free thing and you kind of understand. From a, you know, whatever churn and conversion ratio you can say, okay, a hundred people sign up looking for loom. I know that these people are gonna be the hardest ones to sell. Cause there might be expecting free and we don’t have free here, so we can kind of gauge our interests.[00:32:59] And you just got to this[00:33:00] [00:32:59] Brian: [00:32:59] stage right now, you know, we’re still early on, we’re recording this when I’m only about five months into zip message. So at this stage, it’s, it’s really more, more about. What, what should I prioritize? And what should I not prioritize in terms of which things to build, who, who should we be speaking to on the marketing site?[00:33:20]That, that’s what I’m looking for in, in the surveys. And then I, and then I do read all the surveys and then I invite a lot of them to calls and I, and, and the surveys reading, what they wrote is a, is a way for me to understand, like, I have a few hundred of these people. I can’t talk to all of them. I shouldn’t talk to all of them.[00:33:38] I need to know who are the best people from this group that I, that I should be talking to and, and reading their responses helps me kind of narrow that down.[00:33:47] Matt: [00:33:47] This looks like the, and I don’t mean any offense by this of your past products, but this seems like the most simplistic, yet powerful tool that you’ve built.[00:33:58] Right? Like, I feel like from what I’ve seen [00:34:00] you launch. Interface wise branding wise. Like I get it. It makes total sense. I understand the use case, the user interface. Like I was just saying, it’s super easy to understand, you know, what you’re going to press in order to get a result. It looks like the most lightweight, yet most impactful product you’ve ever you’ve ever built in a short amount of time.[00:34:22] Is that yeah.[00:34:25] Brian: [00:34:25] Yeah. Really? That’s what I’m going for with this To be honest. I didn’t, I didn’t know. Again, it’s super new. I didn’t know that, like right now you can call it a pretty horizontal product. It, it, I’m already seeing like many different use cases and different types of customers who were interested in using it.[00:34:44] And once I saw that sort of horizontal nature start to. Reveal itself that got me a little bit worried about zit message. You might’ve heard on the podcast with Jordan. Like I, I was starting to say like, how can I niche this down? How can I talk to this [00:35:00] niche or that niche, and then really make that message, the tool for whatever coaches or teachers or podcasters or whatever it might be.[00:35:08]I explored that a little bit, but at the end, but I’ve come around since then to say, like for right now it just is horizontal. And, and we’re going to see where this goes. Like it has, you know, a bunch of first customers right now. We’ll see how this evolves over the rest of the year. And then if, if there is.[00:35:27] One or two groups that emerge of like, these are the best customers, then maybe we’ll double down on that, but maybe not, maybe we’ll, it’ll just be horizontal. And then we’ll have like niche use case pages on the site and stuff like that, but I’m sort of still still exploring. And there’s so much, it’s a very simple product in terms of it.[00:35:48] It basically does one thing really well, this asynchronous conversation, but within that, there are so many little details. We’re not even close to having built everything [00:36:00] that we need to be building. So it’s like, yeah.[00:36:02] Matt: [00:36:02] It’s of many products and, and this is the challenge, right? This is going to be the challenge for you.[00:36:09]You know, moving forward, I don’t know of many, you know, paid for products. In other words, a customer has to go and pay for it that really can survive the simplicity of where the product. You know, starts off. Look at loom as an example, my God, there’s like 50 billion things that it does now. I’m just like, I don’t need all this.[00:36:31] And what happens is the customer like myself goes, I don’t, I don’t need all of these things, you know, popping out at me telling me what I should be doing. Like inviting collaborate. Like I don’t need all that stuff. Where is the product that, let me just record that video and quickly share it. I guess the challenge is, is once you start getting to a certain.[00:36:52]User amount of users, capacity network, capacity, storage capacity. I don’t know what the costs are internally, but then it’s like, [00:37:00] how do we monetize this play? So that’s another simple note is the only product I know that has survived, like being simple. As a product, but they’re also not charging for it and it’s owned by automatic.[00:37:11] So there’s a billion dollars behind it. It doesn’t matter.[00:37:13] Brian: [00:37:13] Yeah. You know, task managers are just, yeah. You gotta, you gotta have huge pockets to make that work. Same thing with loom. They’re, they have a very generous, free plan. And it is difficult for someone like me to compete with them, you know, just be perfectly honest.[00:37:27]And, and I thought about doing free, not close to the idea someday, but right now it’s not, we’re not doing a free plan. Yeah. And you know, we’re, we are differentiating in certain key ways that, that a certain set of customers seem, seem to be perfectly fine with, you know, and I’m still experimenting with different pricing, but it’s But it has paying customers already and it’s growing.[00:37:50]So we’ll see. I, wasn’t going to say the the, the simplicity thing is hard. Because, and I think this goes back to like choosing to get into zip message coming from process kit. Right? Cause one of the, [00:38:00] one of the challenges with process kit was like, it started getting first, very first customers like that.[00:38:08] Just a very small handful of first paying customers within like six, seven months or so after, after breaking ground on, on the code really call it like eight or nine months. If you include the early research but it wasn’t until well, over a year of building features before process kicked got actually like really useful for people.[00:38:26]Cause cause that product is so much more complex, you know, complex that like you can’t just have a glorified to-do list. As a, as a process tool, you know, there’s, there’s no reason to pay for that. When you could just use any other to-do list, you have to have the automations, the conditional logic, the, the, the reason why people want to use like smart SLPs, which is what process kit does.[00:38:52] We need a really, really robust Zapier integration and all this different kind of stuff. It took well over a year to get there. And then even [00:39:00] into the second year, there were a lot of important. Features that, that added value in that. And then that’s where the, where the customer base, you know, likes to it has that like automations people who are super into auto automating everything in their business, they love process kit, but like, yeah, it took a good year and a half to really have a product to give them, you know, whereas like zip message.[00:39:23] It was, I was able to build, I guess, call it an MVP. Within a couple of months, And and now we’re just trying to refine and build that, build that[00:39:32] Matt: [00:39:32] out. Yeah. And you can see the excitement. Like I can, I can, obviously, if you’re watching the video, you see the excitement, but if like I can hear the excitement when you talk about it and your other podcasts.[00:39:43] And when I see you tweet about it I can always tell the kind of good mood you’re in when I see your Twitter, when I see your tweets coming out, but even go down to like the branding. And like your approach to this, like the branding stuff that I put out publicly. You don’t,[00:39:57] Brian: [00:39:57] you don’t see me like throwing chairs in here the rest of the day, right?[00:40:01] [00:40:00] Matt: [00:40:01] No, but it, it, it comes across and like your approach to this product. I can tell that you’re, you’re becoming much more mature, you know, from, from when I first met you, which I probably say every time I interview a you at this point, cause like when I first met you onstage at WordCamp Providence, talking about restaurant engine, which was your, which was your original foray into SAS.[00:40:22]You know, this one is definitely something that looks like you’re, you’re really passionate about. Like, this will be the one that, that the history books really write a big chapter on you about you know, it[00:40:31] Brian: [00:40:31] seems like a well it’s, it’s funny to hear you describe that. I’ve have heard similar things from people like listening to the podcast and stuff.[00:40:40]And, and I, I appreciate that really. And I, I, a lot of it, I do feel, but. Also at this stage of trying many different products over the years the maturity thing I think has leads to what I actually think is pretty healthy skepticism of, of everything. I think you do need [00:41:00] to go into a new product with a lot of skepticism, you know, I’m, I’m still skeptical.[00:41:04] Like I’m still trying to understand that question. Like why, like people who are interested in that message. Like convince me, like, why are you really interested in this product? Like, why are you interested in it? I need to know that. And, and and I need to prove that and continuously, you know, it’s It’s just a process to, of like building confidence in like, okay, I think there’s something here.[00:41:31] I think there’s something here. Okay. Now I’m going to really double down investments here and, and, and that sort of stuff, you[00:41:38] Matt: [00:41:38] know, I think in a space, a final sort of final question thoughts around around this I’d imagine that. The pandemic COVID audio video, very hot spaces. Now that everyone was forced to work from home.[00:41:53]I think the video space obviously is going to be interesting. Audio is going to be interesting. But also probably quite challenging was, you know, [00:42:00] building process kit out is probably just a lot of thought. A lot of logic. You probably don’t need a lot of CPU and infrastructure around this stuff.[00:42:07] Video, I’d imagine maybe a little bit more right. And storage, bandwidth, conversion, all this[00:42:12] Brian: [00:42:12] stuff. It, it definitely is more complex. I do have a great developer working with me. And I have learned a ton about handling video on the web in the last couple of months. It, it’s definitely a challenge for sure.[00:42:26]There are some aspects of it that were a little bit. Easier than I, than I expected. And, and when I did some early technical research on it, it was part of, part of the reason why I decided to go into it and not be completely scared off because it’s video. I started researching it a bit. I was like, oh wow.[00:42:45] We can actually do this sort of thing in browsers these days, which wasn’t exactly possible even like one or two, three years ago. So that’s kind of cool, but there’s definitely. There, there are definitely costs in terms of bandwidth and processing of [00:43:00] videos and storage and, and playback. And there are just reliability issues of, of making sure that every time you hit record, no matter which browser you’re in, it works.[00:43:10]You know, we’re, we’re constantly working with users to, to, to smooth that out and, and make an, and, you know, you might, you might think that everybody is using Google Chrome, everything it[00:43:21] Matt: [00:43:21] is. God, I hope[00:43:24] Brian: [00:43:24] not. You know, I’m, I’m literally seeing from from the user base, the, the small user base here, was it messaged that it’s a, it’s a good mix of Chrome safari Firefox.[00:43:34] You know, iOS, Android, like it’s, it’s a mix we’ve got to make them work. So that’s a challenge,[00:43:40] Matt: [00:43:40] basic stuff. Brian castle zip message.com, a sync video conversations with customers and colleagues. I love the fact that you have the little arrow that points to what’s. This led async to help define asynchronous, because I tell you that if I told my dad, Hey, check out this asynchronous video conversation tool, you might be like, what the hell is?[00:43:59]He’s [00:44:00] not. And competent, but he might be like, what do you mean asynchronous? But he screen-sharing video sharing. He would get it. But I like how you define it there so[00:44:07] Brian: [00:44:07] that, you know, and that came out of the feedback. Because the very first, I think the very first version of the homepage, I did use the word asynchronous.[00:44:15] Maybe not in the H one, but somewhere around there. And, and I got a lot of feedback saying like, ah, I don’t really know what, like literally people would ask me, like, what does asynchronous mean? And then other people would be like, I, I sorta know what it means, but I think most people don’t know what that means.[00:44:30] And then, and then I backed off of it for a while. Like, oh, it’s just for video conversations or video messaging, something like that. And I just didn’t use the word asynchronous, but then it occurred to me that like, No, like we should own the, the term async, you know, cause that is growing in popularity.[00:44:48] Like people are starting to use it more often. So, so I want that message to be known for async conversations. But we have a little definition there for computer skills. You’re [00:45:00] brand new to it. You know,[00:45:00]Matt: [00:45:00] Zip message.com. Request an invite@zipmessage.com. Brian, thanks for hanging out and talking to us today on your podcast.[00:45:07] It’s your podcast at this point go, go to dot com and request an invite and maybe we’ll see Brian again. Hopefully not, hopefully not. We don’t see you in another six months talking about the[00:45:16] Brian: [00:45:16] product goal is to never be on that report. Again,[00:45:20] Matt: [00:45:20] it’s amazing stuff. Everybody else, Matt report.com airport.com/subscribe to join the mailing list.[00:45:26] We’ll see you in the next episode.

Returning guest Angie Herrara discusses alternatives to google analytics for tracking website visitors. We discuss Fathom Analytics and Stat Counter. Reasons to consider using an alternative to google analytics include concerns about privacy and a simpler, easier to understand interface. Google is very complex and difficult to understandFathom Analytics is privacy orientedFathom and Stat Counter have a simpler easy to understand interfaceThings that you want to understand and know how to track with whichever analytics you useIf it's free (google analytics) then you are the product Show Links Google Analytics Company of One Use Fathom How Fathom tracks without cookies Stat Counter Hot Jar Crazy Egg Full Story More Website 101 Podcast Email the Podcast! Twitter Sean on LinkedIn Mike on LinkedIn

Ben and Derrick hang out and talk shop with Paul Jarvis, co-founder of Fathom Analytics (https://usefathom.com/).

Fathom Analytics (https://www.usefathom.com) is a privacy-first analytics engine, and they were attacked in November 2020 via a very big DDOS attack that threatened their core business. Jack Ellis, co-founder of Fathom Analytics, is a developer and first used the developer mindset to address this threat. He quickly realized he was out of his depth and decided to call for help. The AWS Shield Advanced team came to the rescue and helped them shut down the attack, and helped to stop additional attacks that were still on the horizon. Jack wrote about his experiences in the blog post "Someone attacked our company," and its URL is below. Now he shares his experience with us. What's it like to be attacke by an unknown assailant bent on doing your company harm – and to not be sure how to stop it? Join us on this episode to find out! Someone Attacked Our Company: https://usefathom.com/blog/ddos-attack

Today, Debbie Weil brings Paul Jarvis on the show. Paul  is a veteran of the online tech world, as well as an author and designer of data analytics software and online courses. He lives on an island in the Pacific Northwest in Canada and has worked with Silicon Valley startups, pro-sports athletes, and Fortune 500 companies. But what’s truly notable about Paul is that even before the pandemic he was living an isolated, private, and minimalist life as a solo entrepreneur.Paul is the author of a recent book, Company of One: Why Staying Small is the Next Big Thing for Business. He’s designed a number of online courses, bringing in several million dollars in revenue,  he's the co-founder of Fathom Analytics, and until very recently he wrote a popular weekly e-newsletter, The Sunday Dispatches, that he sent to his list of 35,000 subscribers. His driving value is simplicity. As he says in this conversation, “I crave simplicity,” - especially as it relates to business and work.” Meaning how can you solve a business problem simply rather than adding layers of complexity. In mid-November, Paul announced in an email to his 35,000 subscribers that he was halting his newsletter after eight years and also taking a break from podcasts and interviews. He noted that he's been sharing his thoughts online for 20 years. "I don’t want attention or power or admiration," he says. "I don’t want to be a personal brand or a known dude on the internet. I just want to exist and do my work privately." So we’re lucky to have this conversation with him. Debbie hopes you enjoy it as much as she did. And that you take away a few nuggets of wisdom about work - and life - that you can apply in this time of the pandemic.  Mentioned in this episode or useful:Paul’s Website: https://pjrvs.com/Company of One: Why Staying Small is the Next Big Thing for Business by Paul Jarvis (Mariner Books 2019)The Sunday Dispatches Fathom Analytics: Paul is co-founder with Jack EllisAbove Board, Fathom Analytics’ podcast (co-hosted by Paul) discussing privacy and business in the digital age.Paul's online courses on how to use WordPressCreative Class (Paul's online course for freelancers)Chimp Essentials (Paul's online course on how to use MailChimp) A podcast episode with another successful solo entrepreneur:Derek Sivers on Slow Thinking, Connecting, and Intentional Living Note from DebbieI hope you enjoyed this podcast. Would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than sixty seconds, and it really makes a difference in attracting new listeners and upcoming guests. I might read your review on my next episode!Sign up for occasional updates and get my free writing guide at http://eepurl.com/qGTPConnect with me:Twitter: @debbieweilInstagram: @debbieweilFacebook: @debbieweilLinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/debbieweil- Debbie WE ARE LOOKING FOR A SPONSORIf you are interested in reaching a smart and thoughtful audience of midlife (GenX and Boomer) listeners, who are active, open to adventure and change, and who think differently about lifestyle, finances, and retirement, contact Debbie. Media PartnersNext For MeEncore.orgMEA Support this podcast:Leave a review on iTunes: it will help us find a sponsor! If you are interested, contact Debbie WeilSubscribe via Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Stitcher or Spotify Credits:Host: Debbie WeilProducer: Far Out MediaPodcast websiteMusic: Lakeside Path by Duck Lake Connect with us:Email: thegapyearpodcast@gmail.comDebbie Weil and Sam Harrington's blog: Gap Year After Sixty

In this episode, we'll discuss the differences between Google Analytics, Fathom Analytics, and other analytics solutions, and how to choose the right option for your site!

A malicious person decided they wanted to have a go at ruining our company and it’s reputation. In this episode Paul interviews Jack about a high level attack that was targeted at Fathom Analytics. We cover what happened, how we responded and talked to our customers about it, and then what we’re doing to mitigate this type of threat in the future.

If you enjoy this podcast, consider buying me a coffee: https://adamstoner.com/support Liza Minnelli was correct when she sang that ‘money makes the world go round' and whether you like it or not, we are all people who have to operate within a framework whereby being a consumer and purchasing things is a mandatory act. Because of this, our money is one of the most powerful tools we have in expressing our point of view – perhaps even more so than the ballot box. Every act our money is involved in is tacit moral, political, and ethical support. I've written in the past about how one of the most hands-on ways a person can affect change and support a cause they believe in is by funding it. The same is true when it comes to the items we buy and where we decide to keep our money. The holiday sesason is around the corner and this essay is dedicated to better options. I highly recommend taking out a digital subscription to Ethical Consumer who have an extensive selection of leaderboards, allowing you to filter companies according to values that are important to you and as an Individual Member of 1% for the Planet, I am somewhat biased in saying: Start with any business that features the 1% for the Planet logo (from the likes of Patagonia to Fathom Analytics and even Pukka Tea) and work from there. Here are a list of companies I use: The Phone Co-Op is a carbon-neutral co-operative owned telecoms company. Their mobile phone service piggybacks on the EE network so you get the same coverage as a big giant with decent ethics to match. I bank with Triodos. They list every organisation they loan to on their website so you know your money is being used for the common good. I use Moneybox for socially responsible investing. The fees associated with socially responsible investing are a touch higher than other investment options but worth paying when considering the opposite of socially responsible investing is socially irresponsible investing. Rapanui make clothing with organic materials and renewable energy using plastic-free packaging and non-toxic dyes. When your clothes wear out, return them to Rapanui, where they will recycle them in a closed-loop system to make new ones. Bulb offer 100% renewable energy and 100% carbon-offset gas (10% of which is green) on a single tariff. Redemption Roasters across London offer socially responsible wholebean and ground coffee. Earlier in the year I purchased (nearly) zero-carbon coffee from Yallah, which came to the UK from Columbia via sail boat. Teapigs fuel us with tea, from English Breakfast to relaxing Peppermint and Liquorice. Who Gives a Crap supply our household with plastic-free bog-roll. Lush, Anita Roddick's the Body Shop, and Aesop, owned by the same parent company as the Body Shop, deal with toiletries. The Ethical Superstore is my go-to for presents of any kind and taking a leaf out of the Minimalists' book, I prefer to gift experiences (from GoApe to cinema trips, climbing experiences and hotel trips) rather than things.

We have the great pleasure of speaking to Paul Jarvis today! Paul has been an entrepreneur for the last twenty years. He is the Cofounder of Fathom Analytics, a company that supports the privacy of digital data, he hosts three podcasts, and he has also written a book called Company of One.  Paul is an advocate for thinking first about whether growth makes sense before you decide to grow your business. He is joining us today to talk about his book and his business. He will also discuss how and why to question growth, what “enough” is and how to define it, and why every business is a lifestyle business. We have an amazing conversation today, and we know you're going to love it! Paul Jarvis's Bio Paul Jarvis is a writer and designer who has had his own company of one for the last two decades. His latest book, Company of One, explores why bigger is not always better in business.  He has worked with professional athletes like Steve Nash and Shaquille O'Neal, corporate giants like Microsoft and Mercedes Benz, and entrepreneurs with online empires like Danielle LaPorte and Marie Forleo. Currently, he teaches online courses, hosts several podcasts, and develops small but mighty software solutions. Paul's ideas about growth have been featured in Wired, Fast Company, USA Today, Mailchimp, and more.   How and why to question growth Sometimes, growth makes sense. It is not always beneficial, however. It is only worth considering if it makes sense for you, as the owner or founder of the company, the employees, the customers, and the long-term success of everybody involved.  Edward Abbey: “Growth for growth's sake is the ideology of a cancer cell.” Growth is necessary at the beginning Paul explains that you need growth at the beginning of a new business. Otherwise, it's not a business. It is just an idea that you have.  Growth might not make sense There is a point in a business where growing it might not make sense. For example, Paul does not want to promote himself out of a job that he enjoys and into managing people, which he is not good at doing. Small-scale efficiency Paul is always looking for a way to be the most efficient on the smallest scale possible. So, he looks for ways to increase revenue without increasing expenses or personnel. Paul Jarvis's philosophy on what is enough There is no one answer to how much is enough because everyone is different. Enough comes down to figuring out if growth makes sense for everyone involved in the business and if more will be better because more is not always the best long-term solution to a problem. Every business is a lifestyle business Paul thinks that every business is a lifestyle business because, with every single type of business, you get the kind life that comes with it. Paul prefers to have the kind of business that affords him the ability to have a life outside of his work. Paul Jarvis's typical work week Every day is different for Paul Jarvis. He typically works for about four hours a day, six days a week, because that is how he feels he is most productive. He prefers to think about the things he wants to accomplish each day rather than having a structured plan. Delegating Paul delegates all his taxes and legal work because although he is good at making money, he is not good at telling the government how much he needs to give them. Outsourcing He has a privacy officer based in Norway and some lawyers based in Europe that he outsources to, specifically for compliance with current and upcoming privacy laws. How Fathom Analytics was born About three years ago, Paul got frustrated with Google Analytics, so he sat down and designed what he thought analytics should look like. He put his design up on Twitter, and it caught on like wildfire. People started asking him to build what he had designed, so he built it and made it open-source (free) in the beginning, and a million people downloaded it quickly. Not everyone was able to use it, however, so he decided to make it user friendly, charge for it, and manage and host it himself. Then people, from governments to premier league football teams, started using his software! The focus Fathom Analytics focuses on privacy and simplicity. The Social Dilemma Big tech companies have a lot of personal information about everyone without having permission to take that information, and they don't give anyone anything in return.  Influence That data can get used to influence voting and people's beliefs, so if it gets targeted to people on social media, it could be dangerous to democracy. Protection Anything that happens on the internet could be made public. Paul suggests that anyone who uses the internet should be thinking about how they can protect themselves, their data, and the personal information that they put out on the internet. Paul Jarvis and his thoughts on privacy laws  Paul Jarvis is an advocate for smart privacy laws. Now, corporations have more power than governments, so he feels that the government needs to take back their power and make stronger privacy laws. There also needs to be a lot more consumer awareness, fact-checking, and dire consequences for the misuse of people's data.  Fathom Analytics's business model Fathom Analytics's business model is selling people software. It is not about selling data about the people using their software.   Connect with Eric On LinkedIn On Facebook On Instagram On Website Connect with Paul Paul's website

One of our Directors of Client Strategy, Gedaly Guberek, talks SEO and content metrics. Gedaly has 10+ years of experience in building websites and designing successful SEO strategies. He offers advice on which key performance indicators (KPIs) to look out for — and which two you should approach with caution. Topics 0:25 - Director of Client Strategy at Growth Machine, Gedaly Guberek, talks about his SEO experience starting from the first blog he started in 2007. 4:50 - Gedaly’s Shakespeare blog. How Gedaly got his content to differ from existing content. 6:07 - Being data-informed vs. data-driven.  8:06 - Key performance indicator (KPI) as an indicator rather than a strict measurement of how you’re doing. What you’re measuring will change over time. 13:18 - Effective goal setting is essential in understanding how to make use of the analytics. 15:04 - Gedaly describes why ranking is dependent on a variety of factors such as domain authority, niche, choice of keywords, and more.  20:30 - Different analytics tools for a variety of metrics.  23:32 - How heat maps can be utilized: tracking user behaviors, how people respond to one landing page over another, and scroll data. 27:38 - Reporting and presenting data. Gedaly describes the importance of recognizing what metrics are consistent with your goals. Links: Google Search Console (0:45) Google Analytics (20:39) Google Analytics Academy (20:52) Google Data Studio (21:05) Fathom Analytics (22:11) Articles:  Key Performance Indicators for SEO-Focused Content Marketing Growth Machine Links: Twitter: @growthmachine__ Blog: The Growth Machine Blog

I'll give you a second to read today's show title… That's how I felt talking to Iain Poulson. Like, this dude is Neo, from the Matrix. How does one person launch and maintain so many products and still have time for everything else? We'll dive into that in today's episode and much more! Here are just a few of the products we chatted about during our podcast: wpcontent.io https://intagrate.io/ https://sellwire.net/ https://wpusermanager.com/ https://pluginrank.com Please say THANK YOU to today's sponsors: Fathom Analytics — an alternative to Google Analytics for privacy focused and speed efficient web stats. WebDevStudios — a WordPress agency that can meet any of your demands for business sites, to e-commerce, and everything in-between. ★ Support this podcast ★

On today's show Paul and Jack chat about bringing a privacy officer on board, why taking proper breaks are important (even if you run an indie business) and what we are considering for the future of Fathom Analytics (version 3). Jack makes a joke about steak-cations, which does not land well.

Jack and Paul speak about having to fire a customer for the first time. It was tough, but it had to be done. They also discuss boundaries, tolerance and office politics.

Paul Jarvis is a designer and writer who makes simple and humane products. His latest book, Company of One, explores why bigger isn’t always better in business. He’s the cofounder of Fathom Analytics – a privacy-focused website analytics software that’s bootstrapped, independent and fully self-funded.Paul on the WebPersonal websiteFathom Analytics

Today is April 9, 2020, and for this Thursday Thoughts episode we're covering: Google Bans Zoom Targeted Advertising Choosing a Domain Name Let's dive in! ---- Buzzfeed News published a post discussing how Google has banned the use of the popular video conferencing app Zoom for their employees. Zoom has quickly gained traction in the video conferencing market due to the rise in people working from home. Due to the increased traffic, it has been revealed that Zoom's security has some holes in it. Therefore, Google is banning access to Zoom on all company-issued computers. ---- Paul Jarvis published a post yesterday on the Fathom Analytics blog discussing the need to ban targeted advertising. Jarvis goes into detail about how top companies like Google and Facebook are making a killing in marketing revenue by buying and selling user data. This topic has been heavily debated in the past few years with several large court cases related to the topic. So, what are your thoughts? Should the companies be allowed to monetize the data we provide or should we go about the difficult task of locking everything down in a digital society? ---- Squarespace published an article today outlining how to choose a domain name. With many common domain names being purchased it can be hard to find the right domain name for yourself or your business. The post outlines some basics of choosing a domain name, including TLDs like .com or .org. What is your strategy for coming up with the perfect domain name? ---- Want to know more? Head to fewdaily.com for more of today's topics and other front-end web content! If you liked what you heard be sure to rate, review, and subscribe on your platform of choice. That's all for today, tune in tomorrow! --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

As you know, Jack and Paul are the cofounders of Fathom Analytics, a 50/50 split. What do they think about working as cofounders? Is it better to be a solo founder? What are benefits of only making half as much (and giving the rest to someone else)? Let's dive in on this nail-biting episode.

Jack Ellis shares his experience rewriting Fathom Analytics and migrating to AWS serverless infrastructure using Laravel Vapor.

Fathom Analytics started out fully open-source. Now, we have an open-source version and a paid version, where the paid version has more features. Jack and Paul hash out our honest reasoning behind not open-sourcing V2, and how we messed up by announcing V2 would be open-source, but then changing our minds (and why changing your mind is ok).

Welcome to the Above Board Podcast. In this podcast Jack Ellis and Paul Jarvis will discuss all things Fathom Analytics (the product they co-own), ethics and business, and whatever else comes up as they build and sell their software product. Learn more at usefathom.com

In business, does growth equate to bigger means better? What if you could scale your business and find more freedom and success with a company of one mindset? Today's guest has a lot to share on this topic. Paul Jarvis is a designer who likes writing. Paul has been working for himself since the 90s. He is the creator of the online courses Creative Class and Chimp Essentials.  He is also the author of Company of One: Why Staying Small Is the Next Big Thing for Business and the co-founder of Fathom Analytics.  His work has been featured in WIRED, Fast Company, and more. He has been noticed and mentioned by Ashton Kutcher and Arianna Huffington.  Some of his clients include Microsoft, Danielle LaPorte, Mercedes-Benz, Maria Forleo, and too many to mention. He is here with us today to share the mindset of a company of one. We talk about what it means to scale your business, be profitable, and find freedom. We’ll learn that sometimes in business, bigger isn't always better. Show Notes: [03:31] Paul wasn't planning on being an entrepreneur. He worked for an agency in Toronto. He loved the work and the clients, but he didn't like the company.  [03:57] When he left the company, clients started calling him. He then realized that he might be able to do this on his own. [04:30] Paul became an entrepreneur by accident. His planned trip to the library to learn how to write a resume turned into a trip to learn how to start a business.  [05:20] The biggest benefit of running his own business is being able to have a direct client contact. It's a lot harder to get a new customer than to keep an existing one. [06:03] He preferred to focus on retention as opposed to acquisition by offering excellent customer service. [07:35] One of the biggest client misconceptions is that they will let you know when they need more work done. Paul started contacting his clients and discovered that they did want more from him. [08:07] Keeping in touch also keeps you top-of-mind. [09:50] Paul can run a business with a very small group of people and outsource things without having everyone on the payroll. [10:24] Paul doesn't want to run a big company and manage other people. He doesn't want to build a business that will put him into that role. [11:36] It's hard to be skilled at every area of a business. Focus on what you are good at and get others to help with the other stuff.  [14:17] Paul is extremely driven when he decides to do something. He didn't plan to be a writer, but he enjoys it, and it's a great way to share ideas.  [15:22] Paul's favorite story is about his friend's dad who was an architect that started working at home. Above his computer he had a sign that said "overhead equals death." [17:08] Expressing personality is attractive to clients. Sharing your personality can draw in the people who are the right fit and push away the people who aren't. [20:51] People buy based on how they feel they are treated. Fostering success and making customers happy is the best way to sell.  [22:34] One of his friends encouraged him to start a podcast. He now has two shows and is starting another one.  [24:29] A business has to make enough to keep going. Helping people also makes you feel really good.  [26:31] We often put self-inflicted pressure on ourselves in business.  [28:07] Growth is beneficial in the beginning of starting a business. People are happier if they make more money, but only up to a certain point.  [30:18] Freedom is important, so working 16 hours a day isn't a requirement. [31:05] Doing less is Paul's biggest productivity hack. He also turns off distractions. Take on less stuff.  [32:10] “No” should be the default for everyone. This way you only do what needs to be done.  [34:50] Find the types of projects and clients you enjoy working with and that can really move the needle. Say “no” to the other stuff. [35:22] Overtime you can narrow your niche down. In the beginning, you may have to be more open to trying different things. [36:04] Paul likes routine. He wakes up early. He makes himself a coffee and then goes on to work on creative stuff. After that, an hour or two on admin. Then he'll garden or exercise.  [38:05] Paul's biggest “aha” moment was when he wrote an article about why he doesn't put growth at the top as priority for his business. He got 1,200 or 1,300 replies from people who had the same sentiment. He realized that there was probably a book that could focus on this topic. [39:48] The byproduct of business success isn't growth it's freedom. Links and Resources: Paul Jarvis Company of One: Why Staying Small Is the Next Big Thing for Business Fathom Analytics Creative Class Chimp Essentials @pjrvs on Twitter Sunday Dispatches Company of One, the podcast Invisible Office Hours

We're back with another amazing episode of The Matt Report! Paul Jarvis, the author of Company of One and creator of Fathom Analytics & WPComplete, joins me to talk about his new journey of publishing a “real” book. I mean, he's published e-books before but surely this is *more* real because it's printed on trees and he has an agent now — right? ★ Support this podcast ★

We’re back with another amazing episode of The Matt Report! Paul Jarvis, the author of Company of One and creator of Fathom Analytics & WPComplete, joins me to talk about his new journey of publishing a “real” book. I mean, he’s published e-books before but surely this is *more* real because it’s printed on trees and he has an agent now — right? (more…)

We’re back with another amazing episode of The Matt Report! Paul Jarvis, the author of Company of One and creator of Fathom Analytics & WPComplete, joins me to talk about his new journey of publishing a “real” book. I mean, he’s published e-books before but surely this is *more* real because it’s printed on trees…

What if success isn't about scaling up as big as possible? What if success is actually about the freedom to call your own shots? Paul Jarvis (@pjrvs) was asking himself these questions as he left the corporate world way back in the 90s. Now he works from his home in the woods on an island near Vancouver. He explores what he's learned in his new book, Company of One: Why Staying Small is the Next Big Thing for Business. Previously, Paul was a freelance designer, working with clients such as Microsoft, Mercedes-Benz, and Marie Forleo. He now writes books, and makes courses and software products. Courses such as Creative Class, which teaches you how to "go pro" in your freelance career, and software such as Fathom Analytics, which gives you simple website analytics without tracking or storing your users' personal data. In this conversation you'll learn: How to manage your time in a company of one: Paul shares specific details on how he manages his time on a weekly basis, a monthly basis, and beyond. How to build your company of one around your skills: How does Paul build on his strengths and make his weaknesses irrelevant? How to make room for creativity by being organized: Learn why systems and processes actually enhance creativity rather than stifle it. Love Your Work is now fully listener-supported! Patreon supporters are now covering ALL production costs for Love Your Work! Join our wonderful Patreon backers at patreon.com/kadavy. Free Creative Productivity Toolbox I quadrupled my creative productivity. Sign up and I'll send you the tools I count on: kadavy.net/tools Feedback? Questions? Comments? I love to hear anything and everything from you. Leave a review on Apple Podcasts, Tweet at me @kadavy, or email me david@kadavy.net.     Sponsors http://audible.com/loveyourwork Show notes: http://kadavy.net/blog/posts/paul-jarvis-podcast/

Discuss this episode in the Muse community Follow @MuseAppHQ on Twitter Show notes 00:00:00 - Speaker 1: One of the things that’s really important, whether you’re talking about product principles or company values, is you have to be able to negate them, cause otherwise you don’t use them to resolve conflict. 00:00:14 - Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to Meta Muse. Muse is a software for your iPad that helps you with ideation and problem solving. This podcast isn’t about Muse the product, it’s about Muse the company and the small team behind it. I’m here today with my colleague Mark McGranaghan. Hey Adam, and my former colleague, now friend Max Schoening. Hey, Adam. Max, great to have you here. So, Max has an impressive career in the tech world, both as an indie developer making cloud app years back. The 3 of us worked together at Hiroku and now you’re leading the design team at GitHub. More importantly, for our purposes, you are an early user, you are our very first customer for Muse, and you’re also an advisor, so we get to bombard you with our half-finished ideas once a month, and you can tell them, tell us why they’re bad. 00:00:59 - Speaker 1: Uh, thank you for that very generous introduction, and it’s, it’s quite the privilege to be a part of the Muse creation process, even if it’s on the sidelines. 00:01:07 - Speaker 2: Now I understand you just got back from a camping trip. That sounded pretty fun. 00:01:10 - Speaker 1: Uh, yeah, I did. I spent The last week completely off the grid, my wife and I with the dog went and drove up to the Tahoe National Forest in a 4x4 sprinter van and did nothing but hike and sort of be in nature, which at this moment in time feels or is an immense privilege, right? But it was good to disconnect a little. 00:01:35 - Speaker 2: Now our topic today is principled products. Now this is your idea, Max. So maybe you can explain what this is all about. 00:01:41 - Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it might be interesting to to start at the beginning of how I was introduced to Muse because I think we had talked, we share lots of interest, sort of end user programming, end user computing, and also tools for thought and and making tools for people who make stuff. And so naturally, when you started Muse, you shared it with me and I think my first, I don’t quite remember, so please, please correct me here, Adam, but I think my first reaction was, OK, well, why would I use this? This is not letting me draw the way that I want to draw. 00:02:12 - Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember giving you a quick uh just in person demo. I think you were visiting your mom here in Berlin. You stopped by my place. I said, hey, I’m working on this new thing and just showed you, you know, a pretty early version and you I think you liked, you had a positive reaction to the zooming kind of spatial interface, uh, but then when you went off to try it on your own a little bit, you said, well, yeah, the ink’s kind of ugly and I have a better sketchbook app. using notability at the time and yeah, for purely for sketching, that’s true today as well. Notability is a better choice. 00:02:38 - Speaker 1: I think I narrowed in on the on the ink engine very quickly versus acknowledging the principles that Muse kind of stands for. And I think that’s what triggered this entire thought process in me of to actually consider to make Muse work for you, you have to consider the principles that the creators in this case, the two of you and the rest of the team sort of put into the process. And that’s where I think the train of thought of, OK, what are principled products sort of came from, as I tried to define what a principle what we mean by principled, I kind of came to the to the realization of it’s just a set of rules or laws that guide the behavior of the people who make the thing, but then there is even a secondary layer which I think is much more interesting, which is a set of rules or laws that guide the behavior of the people using the thing. And I think Muse is you framed it, Mark or Adam, I don’t remember, but as a as a tool for thought and a tool for rumination. The moment that you gave me, this is obviously not a very scalable process, but you gave me this onboarding onto the muse philosophy after I initially rejected the app and then it clicked. 00:03:46 - Speaker 2: Yeah, well, that’s great to hear. Now we just need to figure out how to kind of replicate and scale up. That process, I guess, but in the near term happy to to do the one off, uh, one-off on boardings, I guess. Now, I’d be curious to hear from, from both of you, both of you guys, what are other principal products. And I assume that many, many products are driven by mission or they have a purpose or uniting set of values, but I assume that when we, when we say when we really say principal products in the way you just described Max, that’s, that’s not many or even, that’s not. or even maybe many products that are out there. So what are, what are some examples? I don’t know, Mark, do you have any that come to mind? 00:04:20 - Speaker 3: One that comes to mind for me is SQL light. This is a classic database that has this principle of being super reliable and running everywhere. Actually, the homepage is hilarious. It looks like it’s from the 90s and it says SQL light, it does not give problems. It just works. I think importantly, it’s a trade-off that they’re making. For example, it makes it harder and slower and more laborious to develop the product, but that’s a principle that they’re really committed to and that you can expect from them as developers and you can expect as users of the product. 00:04:48 - Speaker 2: And I think we um pointed out and maybe it was the local first article that SQL Light is now listed by the US Library of Congress as an accepted archival format alongside other formats like PDF or PNG being this very Long term hasn’t changed much. The developers are really committed and show that they’re committed through the already, I don’t know what it is, decades of maintenance that they put into it. 00:05:13 - Speaker 1: I think if you think about products that apply principles very thoroughly, you kind of have to distinguish between the products that are just very thorough at applying the principles that the team sort of believes in. And I think one example is the original iPhone, like it’s very clear. When you use the original iPhone, you kind of feel almost what the team behind uh the iPhone stood for, like what they believed in and what they wouldn’t sacrifice, and like what their principal stack is. And that creates a very distilled experience and it’s also a great sort of um tool for wrangling complexity. Like if you smash the iPhone home button enough times, you will return to safety and then like that’s just it’s it’s a very, very cool design. But uh I’m actually more interested in products that or I, I think we have that covered, like you touched on, on this in, in your, uh, I’ll plug your own show, but uh you touched on it in the, in the manual um episode for the Muse podcast where iOS development mobile development in general has created this structure of, OK, let’s just make the products as simple as possible. Let’s just make them as intuitive as possible, they shouldn’t even require a manual. Why are you shipping a manual with the product like the iPhone comes with 3 pages. And I think adhering to principles is necessary to deliver those kind of experiences for, you know, very approachable, very simple products, but it’s also necessary if you want to deliver products with any kind of like, I think you said any kind of depth. And so I’m more interested in principles or products where they’re almost actively confusing or like they seem like they’re poorly designed on the surface, unless you read the manual, unless you read the philosophy of the creators. And so I think they’re an example is clearlyIM, right? If you, if you use them for the first time, you’re like, how does this even make sense if you’ve never heard of the principles, right? If you want to use the mouse to use them, you’re going to have a really hard time. And in comparison, sort of to pick in the same domain, Microsoft Word is very much a product that tries to adapt to users' needs and offers flexibility, but in a sense of go use it however you want it, it’ll do that for you. And Vim says, no, no, it’s very composable, but you’re going to have to buy into our methodology and I think the latter is sort of really interesting. Muse fits into that category. I would say that. Uh, we all have a shared background here with with Hiroku, and the twelvefactor app. I think that falls into the same category as in if you’re going to consistently want to write to the file system on Hioku with these ephemeral dinos, you’re gonna, it’s not possible, right? And so if you don’t change your mind, you will have a miserable experience using this product. And so I’m, I’m wondering if there’s other products that come to mind for the two of you that sort of very much like if you don’t buy into it, it just feels like the people didn’t know what they were doing designing the product versus if you read the manual, something clicks and then you’re like, I get it now. 00:08:13 - Speaker 3: I think Git might be in this category for me. So Git, if you approach it and you just look at the porcelain, that is the commands that you do to you use to do common stuff, it’s. Really confusing. So if I want to send you a change to my code, it’s like, check out a branch and then stage your commit and then push it to a remote over at like what? But if you take a step back and see that Git is a system for tracking content, immutable content over time, everything makes perfect sense in light of that. And so you have to have that underlying knowledge and model of it’s this tag of code without it, it’s just very confusing. 00:08:43 - Speaker 2: Talking about the uh the Hiroku example, of course, there’s sort of what, what came first, the principles or the product. You know, I think it’s, it is a chicken and egg thing they developed together and notably their 12 factor app, we wrote well into the existence of the product. It had existed for 4 plus years. And so we, we sort of discovered these patterns and these things that made application. Development easier, particularly in the context of continuous deployment and agile development and all that sort of stuff. Eventually, we wrote them into this manifesto to make it easier to comprehend the product, but the product already existed and already had these principles that we had over time. So I wonder for other uh products maybe that some of us have worked on. I know, Max, you talked about GitHub actions, you know, that was when you, you drove um early in your year run of GitHub and and you mentioned that that kind of was also driven by the same set of core principles, uh, like that kind of these building blocks. But did that start in that example, or other, others you’ve worked on, did you start With a list of products that are enumerated and written down that the team can understand and build against, or do you only realize the products afterwards that they sort of emerge from the crafting of the product itself? 00:09:57 - Speaker 1: I think in the, in the case of GitHub Actions, it’s worth pointing out that GitHub was a 12 or definitely a decade old company, I think 12 years and so it already had Ingrained principles in what it believed in. So I think in that case, you have the luxury of sort of building on top of them. What we did with GitHub Actions is is actually at the root of what GitHub believes in, right? Like GitHub is about multiplayer software development. It’s about saying, OK, how can I reuse and remake the work of others? How can I stand on the shoulders of giants, basically, that’s sort of the whole ethos of open source as well. And so when we looked at Git have actions and workflows for software automation, CI, CD, and so on, we realized that for the most part, that principle is largely lacking, right? Like nobody is actually saying, instead of having one monolithic pipeline that you know, the team that’s building the app built from scratch with some bash scripts, there are very few reusable components. And so from day one, we decided, OK, that’s this has to be part of the uh ethos or the principles that we have. Applied it to design this. But then I think, uh, only it, it really only turns into a true principle once you’ve proven it almost in the market, or when you’re like, OK, this is just not just a hypothesis. This is truly a guiding principle where if we continue to double down on this, then good things will happen. Otherwise, you kind of have to reevaluate it and say, well, are we wrong about this? And so I think the conviction and the principle grew stronger as we went along, but it didn’t start from day one. 00:11:26 - Speaker 2: Yeah, the idea that principles are something that don’t just come out of the ivory tower, the stone tablets from on high or whatever metaphor you want to use, but are something an idea you have a hunch you have, but then they need to be validated, just like any other part of building a thing. Uh, that, that really resonates strongly with me right now because that’s a lot of the process we have been going through with Muse. For example, the modelessness was a pretty core principle early on that if if you want to make this fast tool and you have all the screen space given over to, um, you know, no chrome, all your screen space is given over to your content that you want to move really fast, like a powerful. On the desktop, then that implies that you, uh, shouldn’t have a bunch of toolbars and stuff, but in fact, you should have these gestures and things and early versions of the product had that say a version of that principle, but often the implementation of it, which involved holding stylus in undiscoverable ways and and other things like that, uh we we found just didn’t validate with users. We couldn’t, people didn’t get it. It didn’t strike a chord, and then we we had to adapt that over time. And I guess that core principle of modelessness or the core principle of try to leave all the screen space for the users' content, uh, we did ultimately, as you say, build conviction in that over time, but the implementation of how we actually achieved that changed a lot. 00:12:47 - Speaker 3: And now I’m realizing that a lot of the most interesting principled products, the principles aren’t these opinions that come from nowhere, they’re actually understandings about reality that you’ve kind of uniquely grasped. So in the case of GitHub is this idea that basically all software is developed by multiple people, yet our tools initially were very single node based and it had a sort of similar story, um, likewise with, with Git is this idea that code is a, is a. Of content that changes over time and everything kind of follows from that. Um, so as I think about these principles that we have in Muse, they often come back to these fundamental understandings about the human body, the human mind, how, how the creative process actually works and a lot of stuff flows from that. 00:13:24 - Speaker 1: Probably also not a coincidence that you already have fairly strongly formed principles with uh I don’t know how long you, you sort of think of Muse as existing. But the work that you did at Ik and Switch was this cultivation of these principles and the things that you believe in and like that was a very largely like research driven and I think now with Muse you’re sort of putting those to the test, but that still means that they’re much stronger than, I don’t know if you, if you look at obviously the next door neighbor to principles is something like company values. One of the things that’s really frustrating when looking at company values. is you could actually kind of just take all the startups in Silicon Valley and overlay their company values and I think there would be so much overlap that they lack sort of they’re almost meaningless, right? Like everybody says, hey, customers first or empathy with the customer or build and delight. One of the things that’s really important, whether you’re talking about product principles or company values is you have to be able to negate them because otherwise you don’t use them to resolve conflict. 00:14:23 - Speaker 3: Another way to look at that is principles should be of the form, given to plausibly good choices. This principle says we choose A instead of B, where B would also have been a potentially reasonable choice, but it’s not a principle to do so. 00:14:35 - Speaker 1: Uh, the, I don’t know if you remember when when Trello Trello launched this feature called Card aging a while back, and you could even like switch it to a pirate uh sort of uh scrolls. And the idea behind it is that if you didn’t update a card on your Trello board for a period of time, it would sort of fade into the background. And I actually believe that the principles for your products should have a similar aging mechanism, which is, uh, let’s just assume that you have an internal tool that lists out all your company principles and values or or product values. If people don’t reference the uniquely attributable like URLs for each of these things often enough, they just start fading into the background and then only the most in the the ones that actually truly help you make decisions, right? Like you said, picking between two very plausible solutions. Pick A instead of B because of this principle, that’s how they stay alive, right? Like they have to have a shelf life by default. 00:15:32 - Speaker 2: How important is it do you think, to write what I’ll call an explainer? So the 12 factor was an explainer for a lot of the Hiroku philosophies. There’s something like the Zen of Palm is a great design document, developer guide for the original Palm pilot that enumerates a lot of their principles. But many of these other cases we’ve listed maybe don’t necessarily have that written down or at least not in a public form, and you can glean it a little bit from their marketing material on their website or from following them on Twitter or just from using the product. Is that important or is it more of a nice to have? 00:16:04 - Speaker 1: It depends on the product, so. For example, I don’t think that the iPhone design principles are sort of coherently written down somewhere, at least not in the way that the 1st 20 people who were part in shaping this extraordinary product, but it shines through the product, right? So that’s it’s a, it’s a place where you, you know that there is an amount of finite amount of principles that this team has applied. And it’s sort of distilled and crystallized into the product that is the iPhone. For the products that are actively confusing if you don’t understand the principles though, which is usually I think it’s products with a lot more depth and complexity, you kind of have to write it down because otherwise you never get to the adoption, right? Like you never get to the the sort of enough critical mass to say I have figured out how to translate the principle. Goals and values that the team making the product believes in, so that it can be absorbed by thousands, hundreds of thousands of people in a very sort of scalable way, right? Like that’s presumably, I would assume that’s why you’re investing so much energy into the manual and the documentation and the videos that you’re recording for for Muse is because you want to take the ideas that you’ve spent years now developing. And crystallizing them in a way that now people can just onboard and benefit from that. It’s, it’s not unlike a syllabus for any given subject in a college or or when you’re studying. Of, OK, I’ve learned this thing and now I’m compressing the timeline so that you can learn it twice as fast. 00:17:29 - Speaker 3: This reminds me of the comic book that they wrote to introduce Google Chrome. Oh yeah, and this was, uh, is in the classic comic format and it was explained that it was this new browser that was meant to be fast and secure and it was motivating that. And I think that’s also an example of how these explainers, they don’t need to reach out to all of the potential users. It could be just that you’re empowering the. users, the evangelists, the early adopters versus trying to make a manual that everyone’s going to read because as we all know, that’s quite an uphill battle. 00:17:57 - Speaker 2: Notably on the Google Chrome comic, I happened to be on the artist’s website that made that recently, they specified that it was originally intended only for journalists. They were going to give it out as kind of a cool press release thing, and they only made printed copies to give out to them in this format, like you had to come to the press briefing or something like that. And then for whatever reason, this uh got so much attention, they ended up eventually taking the digital and spreading it more widely, but it was precisely that purpose was to create. Excitement and enthusiasm among tech journalists who are going to go spread the word and help them understand it well enough that they could write about it in their own voice. And maybe some amount of shared vocabulary giving some naming to, I don’t know, maybe the sandboxing on the tabs and trying to, you know, something that was very deep technical topic, but surfacing why they this deep technical work, what the user facing benefits were and how you could talk about that and how you could see that that was I think the the thing that comes to mind, especially right now when we’re thinking about this is sort of you said evangelists and the super users. 00:18:52 - Speaker 1: And you can have the cynical view of saying, oh, the influencers, right, like Instagram influencers who are sort of just, you know, so into your product, they’re gonna and eventually they, it becomes part of their identity, but I think there is actually some truth to uh all of the products that we are listing today um tend to create super fans very quickly. And they tend to create it in a way where the super fans themselves understand a significant majority of the principles, and then they go out into the world and they share those principles because they have adopted them and they’ve changed their perspective, their view of the world. I think that is actually a really important part of these principles which goes back to writing them down or preserving them somehow is really important. If we listed out more of them, this is probably going to be a constant of there are always people who believe almost um irrationally in these principles and carry them forward. One great example would be the entire GTD. 00:19:59 - Speaker 2: A market GTD is David Allen’s getting things done. Yeah. 00:20:03 - Speaker 1: Yes, with GTD it originally shipped as a product in the sense of it was a book and you can consider that a manual. And then the product was just so trivial because it was a bunch of manila folders and index cards. 00:20:14 - Speaker 2: He he advocated you carry index cards around in your pocket to write down ideas that you had throughout the day. 00:20:20 - Speaker 1: And by now I think. Index cards are, well, some people still really love index cards and they’re still a good medium. But if you look at most of the GTD conversations, they have evolved from that product, the principles still stand for people. And then now if you use those GTD design products and think like things, um, omnifocus, if you don’t know what GTD stands for, at some point those, those topics or the the the The concepts that they’ve introduced in the application seem kind of awkward. It’s like, why am I doing this? Why am I not just making a list of to do’s that is very straightforward? Why are you telling me to annotate this with projects and contexts and all this stuff that GTD goes into? And so if you’re not familiar with it, then it seems like awkward product design choices or unenetrable sort of product design choices. But once you actually use them, and if The system works for you. If you, if you share the same principles, it’s almost like it’s giving you superpowers. 00:21:15 - Speaker 2: Here you’re talking about subscribing to a particular methodology about how you organize your information life in order to find value in one of these to do this task keeper type products. But I guess we’re saying on one hand, we think it’s a good thing that you adopt cloud native or a particular perspective to use something like get them or the iPhone or Omnifocus. But on the other hand, there’s the rigid, I think we all really like composable, make it your own products have a lot of flexibility, small sharp tools can be combined in different ways and adapted to different uses and scenarios and different people’s needs. So it’s. interesting to think about that tension or I’d be curious to hear how you both think about the tension of on one hand, opinionated, principled, if you use it and if you subscribe to a particular methodology or particular way of approaching your work or um then this product will be a good fit for you and otherwise awkward. But then there’s also, I definitely used, I don’t know, like project management tools to prescribe a very specific process. And if you do that exact process, it’s great, but if you don’t, it’s, yeah, really uncomfortable and I end up not using those because of their rigidity. Yeah, how’s that resolved? 00:22:25 - Speaker 3: I come back to this idea that the principles need to be true. So you can have very specific ideas about how a product should work and how the workflow should be, but that doesn’t reflect the reality of what I’m trying to do, of course, I’m not gonna like it. And on the flip side, if you’re suggesting a structure that exactly reflects, you know, how the world works, then great, everything fits into place. 00:22:43 - Speaker 1: There was this episode on the exponent podcast. Uh, from Mr. Ben Thompson, where they talk about principle stacks, and in particular they point out that yes, you can make a list of principles that you believe in, but they have to kind of come in a certain order, because at some 0.2 principles will kind of be at odds with one another, no matter what, right? Like and In order to resolve the conflict between the two, you’re going to have to pick one that you believe in more strongly than the other. And I think with designing products that you have that same dynamic, and I believe that the establishing the order of principles is a little bit like sediment. Over time, the ones that you’ve applied more frequently in designing products sort of go to the bottom and end up being the really solid foundation versus the ones that You are still experimenting with, they’re still floating at the top and like you’re not fully committed and you’re like, OK, let’s try this a couple more times. And then once you get to more conviction, then they sort of get compressed further down and you start believing them in in the more. And you mentioned an interesting one because you said, OK, do you want to be opinionated, opinionated products, like a lot of times, you know, we say good design is opinion. At the same time, the three of us are very much frustrated with the inflexibility of modern software and the fact that it’s not composable, and we believe in the Unix philosophy of saying you have tools that work really well together, but they’re special purpose. So we also want like we want opinionated but flexible, or maybe flexible is the wrong word, opinionated but composable, and we have two principles that in theory will come in conflict with one another as you’re developing something. And I think there this, this is where the principal stack comes in it’s OK, which one is more important. 00:24:24 - Speaker 3: And one potential resolution of that in the case of Unix is the underlying principle is everything is a text stream. So insofar as you do that, you can have these different tools that might have different opinions, but they can be composed and recombined in text editing. Now, the other thing I would say there is everything is a text stream is like only sort of right. There are things that are obviously not text, and that’s where Unix starts to break down and that’s an example of how the principles are only as good as they are a reflection of reality. 00:24:47 - Speaker 2: Maybe that’s notable because reality is something that changes as technology and society evolve. So Unix was absolutely the core of all of my computing workflows for a pretty long time, that included not just server and development work, but Things like recording a note or a personal to do. I had command line tools for all that stuff. And then as the phone became a bigger and bigger part of my computing life, and the command line interface just doesn’t Uh, have the same utility there, and then increasingly that approach that Unix put to such good work and it’s still amazing for, you know, servers and but when it comes to my daily computing, it basically is much less central and that’s because my reality has changed. I think most of the products we’ve talked about so far Unix, Hiroku, GitHub Actions, Palm Pilot, the iPhone with its single purpose, or multi-purpose home button. These all feel like the the principles we’re talking about are things that are say how the product works. But I wonder, do we, another kind of list of examples I made when I was thinking about this is products that are more, maybe it’s more tied to the mission or the kind of world that they want to see exist. So there, for example, Overcast comes to mind player that I use, and a lot of the principles come more through listening to Marco Armand, who’s the kind of solo indie developer and he blogs and has his own podcasts and stuff, but he’s always talking about a free and open podcast publishing world where instead of having the massive aggregation like you have with other platforms like YouTube and Video, for example, that podcasts are these RSS feeds that anyone can publish and there’s no central arbitrator and so on, and that obviously ties. Very well to his business interests, but it’s, they, they go hand in hand, maybe he’s making the podcast player that fits with the world that has free and open podcast publishing based on the RSS standard. If that world exists, his product does well. And I also think of like all these increasing number of privacy oriented tools like the Brave web browser, which Mark got me used a little while back on my desktop or messaging apps like Signal and Telegram, or we use uh Fathom Analytics on the Muse website which is privacy oriented. Kind of alternative to Google Analytics? Or do we count uh those kinds of things in this principled product category or is that more, more like a mission? 00:27:13 - Speaker 1: I think they you have to count them as part of these principles because it’s all the users of those products are making trade-offs because they believe in the mission, right? Like, so for example, in the, in the case of Overcast, you are Explicitly saying I believe in the open podcast environment enough that I’m willing to maybe sacrifice some features that other podcast players like Spotify and so on can build because of the aggregation, like commenting systems, rating and so on. Sure, you could kind of build those in a distributed fashion as well, but it just tends to not happen. So As a user, I happen to use Overcast as well because I believe in this. I am making the trade-off of saying it is more important to me that we preserve the openness of the ecosystem than getting some other feature like bells and whistles. Imagine if you, if you used signal, signal is probably in many ways harder to get people to adopt it than Facebook Messenger because Facebook Messenger is ubiquitous, right? And so, uh, you, without the security implications or without the privacy implications of Signal, if you don’t know about them, why would you make that choice? 00:28:22 - Speaker 2: I can see something similar for a lot of these open orientation communities, Linux, I was a pretty heavy Linux on the desktop user for a number of years. Uh, there’s things around, people who build their own PCs or maker, uh, maker communities, things like 3D printing and and so on, and in many cases they are accepting worse user experiences. I don’t know, Linux famously trying to get your laptop to wake from sleep reliably or connect to the Wi Fi. As just always this struggle, but if you really believe in the openness, and you don’t like the walled garden and you want the freedom and flexibility and the hackability, that’s a, that’s a very, that is a tradeoff you’re willing to make. 00:29:00 - Speaker 1: The joke always next year is Linux on the desktop here and for sure are the products like Linux less approachable by default for for people maybe than like iOS or Android or whatever. And so people who like, again, they make trade-offs and say, OK, my Wi Fi will not work reliably or my trackpad will not work as reliably as I would like it to, but at the same time, I’m getting this other benefit. And then we get into these, it’s almost very publicly, I guess you used to call them flame wars, but like there’s these public debates that are just deeply rooted in principles and I like to me, I think the actual thing that matters is that you, if you zoom out, there is a application of different principles of makers around in the world that are creating things so that you can find the tool that you believe fits your principal stack as close as possible. And of course there’s you can divide any distance, you know, enough times and eventually something will not fit with your principle, but broad enough, you’re like, OK, I believe in 90% of this, right? And I think that’s where the the the one underlying principle I think that we’re arguing for here implicitly is if we believe that software needs to be principled and needs to show the principles on the front like sort of like talk about them almost in a virtuous way, then we need enough variety in software so that uh people can sort of find the principal stack that they buy into, versus if you only have one choice, then you’re then you’re kind of either as a as a maker, as a creator, you are forced to build a thing that is just uh khaki pants, like it’s just that like nobody’s going to get angry about anything, any choices that you’ve made. And I think that just makes an inferior solution and experience for each person individually. And so I think variety is one of the guiding principles here. I think that you need to apply and that’s why sort of encouraging people to make things and to be creative is almost the base principle that sort of underlies everything. If you don’t have that, then the entire notion of principled products just doesn’t work. 00:31:07 - Speaker 2: Let 1000 flowers bloom. And people can find their, find their tribe or find what they gravitate to find what reflects what they stand for, including how the product works today, but probably also how you want the world to be. So in the, in the overcast example, you’re using that partially because you want free and open podcasts when you use use Telegram, you’re using that because you want messaging between individuals to be fully private, not snoop by government entities or anyone else. I think. There’s very much a similar thing with Muse, and certainly the people I think that are buying the product in these early days when we’re still in the process of building up the features, part of what they’re saying with with those dollars is, I want things like this to exist. I want computing to be more like this. And when when Mark and I came into it, for example, one of Mark’s say access to grind is just software being too slow all the time. Waiting on them, spinners, things to open and we just really are incredibly tight about that on the team. We, we want everything to be instantaneous all the time, and a huge amount of engineering effort and and design effort to a lesser degree goes into making that happen, but that’s just, we believe that’s possible with computers, the incredible computing hardware that we have at our disposal today, and we feel sad that we spent so much humans spend so much time waiting on computers. Even today, and so that’s something we’re really willing to stand up for and fight for and invest in, and people who choose Muse, particularly if they choose to support it financially, are saying, I want software to be more like this, not just this thing, but I want software like this to exist in the world. 00:32:44 - Speaker 1: In the context of Muse, it might be a good idea to also explicitly point out that in applying the principles that you all stand for the kind of software that you want to make and even further the kind of business that you’re building. You’re explicitly saying we are cutting out a huge user base because we are not going for the top of the funnel like most amount of people on board it and then let’s make sure that everybody draws at least once. You’re basically saying this is a professional tool, we’re charging money for it. And we want this to only be a tool that people who actually derive the exact amount of value out of it as you charge for it, right? Like, obviously this is an incrementally correct approach to finding out what that dollar value is. Um, and I think you believe that software should really drive the creativity of that. I shouldn’t put words in your mouth, but like from the conversations we’ve had, the creativity of the individual, right? So you’re making trade-offs and saying other things will happen either at a later point, but for now we’re doing paid software for professional people who want to do deep work, and that sort of cuts out like most of the pie and to some degree, but at least the the thing that Uh is is left like the people who are now diehard fans and you can sort of call me uh part of that, they are also more likely to make up for that by infusing more energy into the music equation, right? Like either by sharing it or by just spending more money on software than they would before. Kind of brings us back to the the question you asked earlier of writing things down. Like, is it important to write these product principles down? If you don’t write the product principles down for Muse, for example, you will just have sort of the, you’ll have the app in the app store and you’ll have the price point of the app, and then people will just bring their own assumptions to the experience of the product and layer them on incredibly quickly, right? Like they will judge the book by its cover. Then discarded almost immediately. So then you have to go and by articulating your thought process over the years of why these things are important to you to actually capture those people, you have to write it down or you have to sort of distill it. And I think that is something that by definition of how you started the company and how you’re working, you kind of have to do. And I wonder if there is actually like Hiroku had like it felt very similar. It’s unless you explain it. It just seems completely irrational. It doesn’t make any sense, and the people who are working there are all just bananas, right? Like the, so I think writing things down, if you find yourself not having to write it down, maybe you’re not exerting enough of the principles that you actually think you stand for. 00:35:22 - Speaker 2: Yeah, and that’s definitely an active project in many ways. I mean, we have done some of that work in the research lab and the Muse design article, which now is pretty dated because that’s describing a prototype long before we even had a commercial product. But we did try to articulate and I think did successfully articulate some of these things around 120 frames per second, or else, you know, you use both hands in the stylus, all that kind of stuff. And that’s continued to be a guiding principle for us as we, as we build the product and also as, as people come in to try it and they’ve seen maybe they’ve read that article and they have those ideas in their head and so they’re more primed to get over that hump of understanding how this thing works. Um, but then in the meantime, I think we’ve developed and honed. That quite a lot. And yeah, could, could really stand further writing down, although Similar to, I guess the experience I had at um at Hiroki with 12 factor and we had a similar thing with I can switch, in fact, where we really didn’t do the writing until the very end, we had been doing these research projects for 3+ years and many folks, including within the team and externally wanted, you know, basically said like we really got to write this down, and we would go to try to do it and would basically get stuck. We couldn’t. Do it. We didn’t have the words and you know, if you’re in a group of people and you’re talking about it and you’re waving your hands and you’re scribbling on a whiteboard and there’s a lot of words flying around, but boiling that down into a synced legible thing that an external person can just click through on and read and get a powerful, you know, have it effectively convey what, what in fact are the principles here. That’s something that’s hard to do. Upfront, in fact, it’s, it’s in all of these cases, I’ve always done it retroactively. And so I’m gonna try to see here if on Muse we can do it more in the, in the middle of it or while we’re still, you know, still in the very active early days of development, but my um work on that so far, and plus, trust me, I have a lot of half-finished drafts, uh, is, you know, it’s hard, it’s really hard because there are not words for it yet. 00:37:28 - Speaker 1: That’s actually a question that I was gonna ask the the two of you. As you’re developing the principles, there’s always more to do when you’re building a product than you have time for. Everything you choose to do by definition means you’re not doing something else, and it’s a very real trade-off. And if you think about startups and how do you make the argument that it is OK to slow down the process of product and feature development a little bit to capture all the deep thoughts that are happening as you’re building it so that you can hone those principles versus uh Following the lure of just, you know, ship very quickly just go through and like build stuff, um, versus deeply considering it and like, are you making that trade off? 00:38:07 - Speaker 3: Well, I think that’s really important as we were saying before, it leads into your marketing effort. Now you need this communication for people to be able to understand what your principles are and therefore to adopt your product. So we’ve set up maybe 40-60% time, 40% on marketing and communicating these principles and what we’re trying to do and how to use the product and 60% time developing. It feels like a pretty good balance. I think if you just build something and no one can understand it and therefore no one adopts it, that’s not particularly helpful. 00:38:34 - Speaker 1: It’s it’s really interesting to me to actually frame this work, not just as a place so that you build better products, but it’s also a thing that when done right, attracts more people. And so it’s a very real marketing. 00:38:46 - Speaker 3: I go back to this thing about reality and truth. What we’re trying to do is rely align reality, our product and what people understand. And if any of those three things aren’t matched up, you’re going to have a bad time and so you have to do both product development and marketing to get them all together. 00:39:01 - Speaker 1: So this sort of goes towards an area that I think we can all say we’ve struggled quite a bit with um uh marketing at some point of scale, like when you, you know, you’re the 1st 5 to 10 people, you’re a small company, you’re effectively the marketing team, right? There’s no one who has a title that says I own marketing and I’m doing marketing. But at some point, once you get to, you know, 50 people, I don’t remember exactly at what point in time at Hiroka we started sort of cultivating a marketing team, but what happens is the people making the product, and the people thinking deeply about the product and the people who are theoretically supposed to bridge the gap of saying, hey, these are the philosophies and this is like we’re sort of creating the bridge between reality and like the product as you mentioned. Um, are no longer the ones making it, right, like they’re further apart. And so now you have to figure out how to bridge that gap, and I personally have at least 4. Deep, sort of deeply technical products, never been able to figure out how to do that, uh, versus obviously for consumer products, it’s slightly easier for more or or even products that that are sort of more readily understandable by any sort of uh knowledge worker versus then, OK, how do I truly explain the virtues and the trade-offs of a particular database, for example, you brought up databases earlier, if I don’t actually build it and And, and that’s a really interesting challenge in scaling principle product principles is is is something that I think is is is really difficult. 00:40:37 - Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure. I actually think that the problem of marketing early growth stage developer software products is like an unsolved problem in Silicon Valley. Everyone I’ve seen tries and really struggles. I think eventually companies figure out something, but there’s there’s no playbook in the way that there is for product development and customer support and finance, for example. The closest thing I have to an answer here is I think the head of the company and the leadership generally needs to respect the problem and respect the problem domain and invest a lot of energy in marketing, which I do think we’re seeing with with MS because Adam is uh taking a lead there. 00:41:12 - Speaker 2: Definitely a skill development opportunity for me as someone who’s always been very product focused, um, but yeah, it’s been definitely expanding my My horizons. Now, maybe we’re almost on a different topic here, but it’s an interesting one. So I want to pull the thread. Max, you and I were talking a bit about, um, yeah, marketing, uh, and, and to Mark, Mark’s point about there’s no playbook, you were actually saying that what it takes to do authentic marketing for an early product is to not follow a playbook, that in fact, uh, you were giving the cloud app example and so that was just you and one other person, right? 00:41:48 - Speaker 1: Depending on when we did this, I think we were 3 people. And we started out with something that I would very much frown upon right now, which is early on when when Cloud A started to join the public beta, you actually had to tweet about it. And at that time, no one had ever done it. So it was novel and people were kind of excited and that sort of, you know, spread incredibly quickly. But then the more you do, and I really don’t want to take credit for maybe I hadn’t seen it before, but I’m I’m sure someone else in the world figured out how to use that uh sort of spread as well. The more you do that, the more it just becomes noise, right? Like it’s the same as like the first couple of emails were never spam. But at some point, once you want to stretch that system, eventually like it gets indistinguishable whether there’s, hey, I’m reaching out if in case you need someone, email becomes spam versus not, depending on how often they they follow up. And I think with marketing and how you market, how you choose to market is actually very close to how you choose to build products. The best marketing is always the one that is most authentic. How do you know whether uh marketing is authentic? It’s when the person who actually explains it. is truly a believer in the principles that the folks who are building the product are building and like when you feel that sort of viscerally that that’s what they stand for and like almost to a fault. The further you go away from that, the less effective the marketing becomes. And that this happens both very small scale. So if you look at something that is somewhat of a contentious uh domain in general, but online advertising. If you go back and look at the deck network, I think it was and and how daring Fireball and so on used to do ads, they had these little tiny squares of products that almost all of them kind of believed in, like they would never advertise for something. And so that was like sort of the almost Original influencer marketing, all the way to tricks that people exploit now by saying, look, we used to have display out ads on the right hand side or on the left hand side of Facebook, and instead we figured out, no, by putting them into the feed and making them look like content. We’re kind of tricking you into thinking that this is also reputable. And so you can obviously take it to the extreme at scale, but the principle remains the same of saying you want to make sure that the marketing feels as honest as possible. And honestly, the only morally in my opinion, right way to do it is if it is as honest as possible, right? Like if you’re not trying to trick anyone. And so I’ve seen great uh applications of this for uh in teams of of your size, and even sort of small to medium companies, but it gets much larger when you’re trying to market at scale, right? Like, at some point, someone is going to just try and tweak the world. it’s just enough so that someone else gets tricked and clicking the and clicking the link. 00:44:34 - Speaker 2: I also think of marketing as being not just the outbound communication, let us talk to you in this podcast or send you an email newsletter or tweet something, but also the receiving information from the market that it’s it’s a conversation. Um, and in some cases, that’s a very much a literal conversation. I think I’ve done for all of us on the team, but probably me. Um, most of all have done, certainly I’ve done dozens of video chats and in-person user interviews early on, and then, uh, nowadays tend to do stuff over email. I get into email back and forth, you know, if you reply to our email newsletter, it goes straight to me. If you email the hello at newapp.com, I think that’s going to mark right now if I’m not mistaken, and we try to respond to every single person. I often get into some pretty long email back and forth and really nice ones, um. And that’s kind of coming back to that point of testing these principles against reality or validating them. Uh, you’re often someone says, why does it work like that? That’s weird. And then you kind of come back with a, you know, an answer, well, we kind of did it this way because of X, but tell me, tell me about how you use it or show me, you know, show me a screenshot if you’re comfortable with that, and then they, they can kind of explain that and we can explore it. And it’s that process that’s often for some of our principles really cause us to double down. On that and essentially feel like we validated it and sharpened it based on these many, many conversations and others that maybe we softened on or feel like didn’t hold up as much and we, we dialed back on a little bit and it it is really these um these conversations with the market, but they’re individual people, but people that for some reason are drawn to either thinking they want a tool like this or the values resonate with them. Um, and then that convergence over time against what we’re trying to do and what it is that people that we think are in our demographics seem to need or want or get excited by. 00:46:28 - Speaker 1: I think with this worldview, you can kind of describe marketing just as a function of generating principle overlap, whether You are the customer that you’re trying to talk to is further away from those principles and so you exert, like in your example with emails, you exert more energy to like personalize the email and then actually like try and have an open conversation. Maybe your mind changes, maybe the customer’s mind change, but essentially what you’re generating is more overlap in the principles of the worldview that you have. And so as long as to Mark’s point earlier, as long as the principles are in to the largest degree possible, true, then uh you are generating, uh I think uh um value because you’re basically saying, now one more person sees the world the way that I see the world and as long as that is a good thing, then marketing. is essentially not the way that we now sort of view it as the, it’s almost like advertising and so on is all about tricking people into something or like sort of exploiting weaknesses instead of saying, turn it around, if you have really strong principles that you believe in, then sharing those with the world, marketing is just about the, the overlap generation of that. So you talked about Adam, you talked about the the outbound um like marketing sort of we are talking to customers and trying to generate overlap with the the company to the principles the company believes in uh with a customer, but you can also uh look inwardly in a company and say by having strong principles, we are creating overlap in what the employees believe in and in what the employees stand for. And if you ask me like what’s the one thing that is really important in terms of of leadership, it’s creating clarity and so principles, if they’re good and true tend to create clarity. So I’m wondering how often and like so this is full circle, how often do you reference these principles internally and actually make decisions at Muse and even sort of from from how you hire, how you uh sort of try to mentor and grow people and so on, like I’m curious how how that’s working for you. 00:48:29 - Speaker 3: Yeah, I think they’re quite important internally. For example, my old favorite, no spinners, I invoke that all the time. I think principles in general, they help you make decisions faster, crisper, more consistently with less thrashing and noise. I think that’s all very good. 00:48:44 - Speaker 1: The no spinner one is probably an example because it’s very concrete. You can kind of say, hey, if I am designing UI that has a spinner, an alarm bell should go off and I should reconsider my choices. And at the same time, If you start really deeply thinking about it, like it works on the surface level because you’re basically just telling everybody who works on the product, hey, no spinners, and then the product is better. But there is even an undercurrent, which is if I am a mindful uh maker that is part of building new, I will try and evaluate, but why do we care about no spinners? And suddenly you start going to the next one, which is, hey, software needs to be fast if it’s not uh fast, it’s not fully shipped or whatever, it’s actually an old GitHub in. And so it it it makes you. A better contributor to the product because you now intrinsically get it. And so you might augment it and say, hey, no spinners, and at the same time also, oh, by the way, I saw this API call didn’t return in the whatever milliseconds that we expected to return, and so you learned something new as an employee as part of the cabal or the co op or whoever you’re working um because someone shared that principle and said this is something we believe in, right? Like, so there’s this transference of skills that happens over time. Um, if you adhere to principles. Right. 00:49:54 - Speaker 3: And then once you’ve derived that result for yourself, you can cash it in a way and you don’t need to re-derive it every time you have the discussion, so you can make the decision much faster, which I think is important, not just in terms of speed, but in terms of emotional energy, which is very limited in the world of a startup and you need to invest that towards making your customer successful and not making decisions internally. 00:50:14 - Speaker 1: I really like the framing of caching. Um, I don’t know if you you two have this well, I actually do know because you send it over. But there are certain kind of blog posts that are just inherently linkable and you’re having a conversation and you’re just writing some text and then you link a blog post. That blog post usually has really strong principles and what you’re essentially conjuring up is a cache of saying, you know, we have this shared worldview. I’m referencing this cache object over there, this blog post, Clay Shirky is situated. Software is something that I think there’s no conversation between the three of us that we don’t reference it. And suddenly we’ve created enough context and saying, OK, we know we’re talking about the same thing. We don’t have to go down that that that decision tree anymore. Now let’s navigate and go towards the new stuff. And so I really like the framing of caching. I think that’s a very nice parallel. 00:51:03 - Speaker 2: And I like there that it also gives you both a name. So this shared vocabulary, uh, which was one of my goals at 12 Factor. I think it was also one of our goals, we wrote Local first, which is another kind of manifesto piece, and the idea of attaching this name to a thing that people within a company or a team or even within an industry, you can use this word to describe the set of ideas that might might have a very deep be a web of nested ideas or a deep stack of ideas. And in addition to that name, whether it’s situated software, local first or 12 factor, uh, you can also, you have the URL, you have the canonical URL that’s that’s very linkable. So when someone says, what is that, you’ve got the, the citation. And that was one of my motivations with 12 factor and one reason I broke out each of the factors is their own page is I wanted to be able to, when I was in the 1000th conversation with someone about, well, wait, why do I have to specify my dependencies? I could just basically drop the URL and say, read this. Um, and so I think that’s another thing you need out of these canonical, these canonical sources for defining a principle that we can discuss and, and build on. It’s not necessarily a question of whether you agree or not. It’s more of, here’s a neat package that has a name and a URL and we can either use this as a basis to say yes, we both know this is a starting place and as you said, Max, go on to the, go on to the new stuff or say, actually, I don’t agree with that. Set of principles and so therefore, you say, OK, well, now we have a more fundamental conversation we need to have before we can move forward on whatever we’re trying to collaborate on. 00:52:35 - Speaker 1: One way in which I’ve started thinking about this is taking aside sort of the monetary incentives or the intrinsic we like to make things. Muse, for example, wants to encourage people to see the world in a certain way, right? Like that’s why it’s a principled product. If you think about it, you don’t necessarily actually have to build a product to make that happen. You could theoretically think of a metaphorical like I have a bucket of links. So what is the most distilled bucket of links, smallest bucket of links that I can just dump on a on a meeting room table and then leave, and the people in the meeting room will read all of those links and internalize that and suddenly they have that worldview, right? And uh you can kind of think of a product as that bucket of of links or references and so on, but in an even more distilled form than a bunch of articles. And I think that is sort of the feeling of uh that uh you get where Hioku or 12 factor, my my bet here and this time will tell. I believe that the principles of 12 factor will outlive Hioku in the same way that I think that the principles in Muse will very likely outlive the application muses, and they will live on and get remixed and so on, which by the way, another good reason to write them down and sort of try and separate them a little bit from the product. But it is not such that the most effective way is to try and distill it into a product so someone can use it on a daily basis versus sort of saying, yes, I am going to care about the exact same things you care about. I’m going to read all of this, do all the research that you’ve done. No, I’m just going to use the product, read the distilled version that you say I need to to understand the product and then slowly my worldview sort of shifts. Um, and I think that another reason why I think principal products is just such a powerful framing for for product development. 00:54:19 - Speaker 3: I think reifying your principles into a product is also important because it’s an existence proof for the set of principles. Really the only way that you can know that these ideas match reality and all of its complexity and nuance is if you actually make something that has all those things working together at the same time. That was a big motivation, I think, for doing the lab and then Muse. We suspected the world could work this way. We couldn’t be sure until it physically existed. 00:54:45 - Speaker 1: I like that you bridge the gap there between Um, sort of research and observation of other products and saying, OK, look, these are the things that we found in other people and and and sort of in in using them, but then it’s like, OK, well, but now let’s put this to the to the test and build one with those principles to see how well does this actually turn out, right? And so. Uh, yeah, a very worthwhile endeavor if you ask me. 00:55:08 - Speaker 2: I think that’s a nice way to wrap on the topic of principled products. If any of our listeners out there have feedback, feel free to reach out to us at UAHQ on Twitter or hello at Newsapp.com by email. We always love to hear your comments and we’d love to hear ideas for future episodes. And Max, thanks for coming on and chatting with us, and thanks so much for being a user, a customer, helping us along this journey. It was a little rough in the beginning, I know, but hopefully it’s starting to pay off for you now. 00:55:37 - Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you for having me and for letting me be a part of the creation process of Muse. It’s really, really fun.