Podcast appearances and mentions of Ray Hunt

Episode 104: How a seemingly simple vintage motto from Ray Hunt actually has tons of science behind it.  At Horse Wise®, I teach people tools so that they can learn how to coach themselves and their horses to progress together as a team. It's a fun process that shows you how build a good partnership with your horse (in a practical, fun way). If you'd like more information on my Horse Wise® services, please visit my website for more information:  ⁠http://horsewisecoach.com/⁠

Welcome back ATO Family! Today we return with a true piece of Dallas Police history with the Great Kevin Navarro as we chronicle his amazing life and servant career. Kevin hired on with the Dallas Police Department in 1981 and remained in service until September 11th2012 and he laid the foundation for future procedures and trainings that have molded young and old officers for generations to come. Officer Navarro started patrol at the Southwest Division before becoming a Detective in Assaults then ultimately in the Dallas Homicide Unit where he would work during the deadliest years in the City of Dallas history.  During Kevin's stay in Homicide he saw a record number of homicides during the deadly drug wars as we saw the murder rate go over 500 deaths. Kevin made his mark and changed the landscape of training at DPD with years at the Inservice academy when he brought revolutionary training such as RBT, Surveillance school, Pursuit class, and the Art of Interrogation. These courses still are molding our men and women of Dallas PD, and many other agencies today. Sit back and enjoy a true piece of Dallas Police lore with a genuine man with a servant's heart. Critical Incidents discussed: The death and aftermath of Dallas Police Officer Gary Blair. EOW: March 20th, 1986. The passing of Sr. Cpl. Joey Fox on October 1st, 2018. Joey suffered a heart attack while off duty and his survived by his wife, Mary, and his children and stepchildren. Topics: Garden of Honor at Restland The Garden of Honor at Restland Cemetary once belonged to the family of my current employer.  It was donated to be used as the final resting place for any Dallas County First Responder who dies in the line of duty.  There is a monument in the center of the Garden envisioned and commissioned by Ray and Nancy Hunt. It has DPD and DFR uniforms affixed on the base of the monument with two angels on the top.  One is holding a DFR Fireman and the other a DPD Officers as they ascend into heaven.  This was Ray Hunt's creation.

Adam speaks to Ray Hunt of In That Number Podcast for an insight into Southampton as Forest travel to St Mary's.Follow us:Twitter/X: @redsidetrent@NumberPodcastIntro animation@JimmynffcThis Podcast has been created and uploaded by Red Side of the Trent. The views in this Podcast are not necessarily the views of talkSPORT. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Cowboy and horseman Martin Black talks about his family's deep ranching roots, being in cow camp with his brother at eight years old, ranching changes in the Great Basin, the disappearance of the wagon, and the horsemanship philosophy of his mentors Ray Hunt, Tom Dorrance, and Tom Marvel.    Learn more about Martin Black at www.martinblack.net   Learn more about Cowboy Crossroads at www.andyhedges.com   Become a patron at www.patreon.com/cowboycrossroads  

Each year the Uh Oh Ranch southeast of Denver hosts a Buck Brannaman at the fairgounds in Kiowa. This clinic is suitable for all levels of riders and cover horsemanship and roping with an emphasis on the skills needed to make a bridle horse. Listen in to learn more about Mindy!  

In this replay of episode SIXTEEN I shared some powerful lessons I learned from from Ray Hunt and Buck Brannaman, who were protoges of horsemanship legends Tom and Bill Dorrance. For even more resources, visit BarrelRacingTips.com. Please subscribe, rate & review to help support on-going content and resources - thanks for listening! Click here to support the show.

Here's a fun interview with a couple old timers, Howard Hale and Buster McClaury.Let's listen in.Buster give me some of your background.How did you get to the point where you were training horses for the public and puttingon clinics?I was born at four sectors and so I was a cowboy for I don't know 30 years probably.And I met Ray Hunt back in mid-80s.Learned quite a bit about the horse from Ray.I run a couple of ranches for another 10 years or so and I never really set out to do anyclinics.First one person and another and got to call in asking for a little help to throw themranches as it's coming.I helped their cowboy start to cope so the business just kind of came our way and that'skind of how we got started.Before you met Ray Hunt, who were some of the folks that were kind of influential asfar as your horsemanship was concerned?Well, my daddy wrote really good horses and my granddad was a good horseman.A guy named Mark from a daddy named Keith Slower was really good and with a horsemanand my daddy was friends with Buck Welch and Mike Larkrose and some of them guys so I gotto be around them and had an early age on.Some real legends in the horse business.That was Buster McClory with Howard Hale.Thanks again for listening to the horseman's corner.That's going to do it for today's program.May God bless.And Brian Hale.

Dr. Deb Bennett is the founder of The Equine Studies Institute. Her Ph.D. in Vertebrate Paleontology and love of horses has led her to be highly respected for her understanding of confirmation and equine biomechanics. Deb joins Ben and Joe to discuss her journey, her time spent with Ray Hunt and Tom Dorrance, and the always popular topic of bending a horse.

John Saint Ryan talks to us about some struggles growing up- including leaving school at 15 and how his temper made him lose his best friend but then how he got an opportunity to teach martial arts to the Army, jump starting his acting career, and his experiences with both Ray Hunt and Tom Dorrance.   https://johnsaintryan.com/ https://www.facebook.com/JSR2020 https://www.instagram.com/johnsaintryan/ Episode Sponsors: instrideproductions.com http://www.elkgrovemilling.net/

Buck Brannaman is a world renowned horseman and clinician. Buck has been doing clinics all over the United States and Internationally for over 40 years and has started over 10,000 colts. Buck joins Ben and Joe to discuss his career and perspective on the horse industry today. Topics discussed include animal psychics, Ray Hunt, making a career in horses and what it means to truly dedicate yourself.

22-year-old Raymond Hunt was captured by Japanese forces on southern Bataan in April 1942. The next day, he began the grueling forced march that would become infamously known as the Battan Death March. But Hunt wasn't going to let his enemies determine his fate. At great risk to himself, he escaped the march and joined the largest Guerilla organization in The Philippines and continued fighting. By World War 2's end, Hunt was commanding 3,400 men and women and gathering vital intelligence to aid the American re-invasion of The Philippines. This is his story.   You'll find images and maps about Ray Hunt at: - Instagram: @leftbehindpodcast   -- www.instagram.com/leftbehindpodcast  - Left Behind Facebook: www.facebook.com/people/Left-Behind-Podcast/100092698653154/  - Left Behind Website (includes sources): https://leftbehindpodcast.com/Hunt

A prime guest for a prime number, Patrick King is a product of two worlds. He apprenticed under Ray Hunt in his early 20s until Mark Russel brought him into the world of dressage. This might be the highest level and most technical episode we've had to date, but I think it will be enlightening to riders of every level. You'll soon learn that Patrick has a deep and well thought out understanding of how horses function, both in spirit/emotion and physically. His particular blend of backgrounds also makes his explanations accessible to those who haven't also spent a decade or so studying dressage specifically. I think he does a very good job of breaking things down so that we're all on the same page,  which pairs perfectly with his technical knowledge. There are loads of terms that float around in the ether of the horse industry that I hear all the time and am convinced that 95% of the people using the term don't actually understand. This episode will clear up quite a few of those for you.We talk about how he got to where he is, the tours and lessons that he does every winter in Portugal and Spain, and his Academy for Classical Horsemanship and other on-line training offerings. You'll find Patrick warm and engaging, a lifelong student, and pretty funny as well. You can find his online stuff that we discuss and his social media at the following links:https://pkhorsemanship.com/https://www.academyforclassicalhorsemanship.com/https://www.academyforclassicalhorsemanship.com/opt-inhttps://www.balanceinhand.com/https://www.facebook.com/PKHorsemanshiphttps://www.instagram.com/patrickkinghorsemanship/https://www.youtube.com/@PatrickKingHorsemanship

On this episode, we look back at the very best from our Legends of Commercial Real Estate conversations with Ross Perot Jr. (The Perot Group), Ray Hunt (Hunt Consolidated, Inc.), and Fred Perpall (The Beck Group). Special thanks to the Dallas Business Journal for sponsoring our Legends of Commercial Real Estate podcast series. To check out links mentioned in this episode, click here: https://ow.ly/hIEh50PkHV1

Adam is joined by In That Number Podcast's Ray Hunt to discuss things from a Southampton perspective with Forest welcoming the Saints to the City Ground.This Podcast has been created and uploaded by Red Side of the Trent. The views in this Podcast are not necessarily the views of talkSPORT. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Bryan Neubert is a horseman, clinician and rawhide braider from Alturas, California. He grew up on a ranch in California where she met his neighbor, Bill Dorrance. Bill would go one to teach Bryan and introduce him to Ray Hunt and Tom Dorrance. These three mentors would have a profound impact on Bryan's life. Today, Bryan teaches horsemanship clinics all over the country in an effort to share what he has learned. Ben and Joe sit down to discuss horsemanship, working through problems and the relationship Bryan had with his mentors.

Episode 117: In this Equestrian Author Spotlight, you'll meet Mary S. Corning.   Mary changes lives by defining the transformative power of pain. As a mentor, speaker, life consultant and writer, she clearly and compassionately models this process through her messages and stories. Mary extends her philosophy into her world of horses, where both people and horses benefit from realizing a different way to interpret challenges.   Great teachers have offered support and blessings that caused a shift in her perception. That shift, in turn, changed her world. And it can change yours, too. Her book, Perfect Practice, will inspire, delight, encourage and expand your awareness. The stories will make you laugh and make you cry – but always with the purpose of a greater understanding. Mary shares her toughest life lessons – stories of turmoil and of triumph.   Saddle up for a conversation about how Mary has navigated through addiction and codependency, the way her education in life expanded when she met her teacher Ray Hunt, and how we can all learn that we are enough.   Show notes: https://www.carlykadecreative.com/blog/episode-117-on-a-philosophy-for-living-an-authentic-transparent-life-with-mary-s-corning-equestrian-author-spotlight-podcast   Want a free guide to secrets of horse book authors? Gallop over to https://www.carlykadecreative.com/wisdom.html and join the Equestrian Author Spotlight email list to have the author advice resource delivered instantly to your inbox.

Episode 118 is out now with NBL Legend Referee Ray Hunt! Ray takes us through his experience as a ref, the fitness components of reffing, and working with some of the most experienced in the business! www.instagram.coim/sportingmax.podcast/

Buster McLaury is a horseman and clinician from Paducah, Texas. Buster grew up working on ranches in west Texas. While working for the 6666 Ranch he met Ray Hunt, who had a profound impact on Buster's relationship with horses. Topics discussed include starting colts, the cowboy gear of west Texas and Buster's adventures from the “pre-Ray Hunt days.” Tune in for an entertaining interview with and exceptional story teller.

Joel Conner is a horseman and clinician from Ellensburg, Washington. He has learned from notable horseman such as Ray Hunt, Buck Brannaman and Ricky Quinn. Ben and Joe discuss Joel's horsemanship journey, helping others learn and how to find areas of self improvement.

Joe Wolter is a well known horseman and clinician. Joe was born and raised in California and grew up around horses. He went on to work for Ray Hunt, learn from Tom And Bill Dorrance and work for the 6666 ranch in Texas. Ben and Joe discuss horse showing, cattle dogs and how your attitude affects the stock you're working with.

John Saint Ryan is a British actor turned horseman. Brought to the states in pursuit of a career in film, John met Ray Hunt and Tom Dorrance. The teachings of Ray and Tom had a profound impact on John, who is now a trainer and clinician based in Southern California. Ben and Joe sit down with John to discuss accents, martial arts, horsemanship, and much more.

Although Shannon Hall's early years were spent in an urban, broken home, fate reunited him with his cowboy father and drew him into ranch life. He made a name for himself training and competing on cutting horses at the highest level. NCHA Hall Of Fame Member, 1999 NCHA Open Futurity Champion. Hall has since built a large cow-calf operation, which he and his family own and operate in southern Oklahoma.

Legendary cowpuncher Tom Moorhouse shares his experiences growing up and working on ranches throughout West Texas. His cowboy stories describe life on the wagon, his family's ranching legacy, dealing with drought and the beginnings of ranch rodeo. He also details how the respected Great Basin horseman Ray Hunt introduced better training practices to old school Texas cowboys, and how that has improved horsemanship on today's ranches.

I wanted to do another book review, this time on Ray Hunt's book Think Harmony With Horses. It had some good ideas, but overall I preferred Mark Rashid's book Horses Never Lie. Mark has very similar ideas but explained them in more detail.

Our Legends of CRE series continues as Bill Cawley (Cawley Partners) sits down with Ray Hunt (Hunt Consolidated, Inc.). This is the second episode of Season 3 of Legends of CRE. Listen to the first episode of the season with Ross Perot Jr.: https://soundcloud.com/trecdallas/ross-perot-jr-the-perot-group-hillwood-legends-of-cre-treccast Special thanks to the Dallas Business Journal for sponsoring our Legends of Commercial Real Estate series. Get the latest breaking business news and exclusives on the hottest topics fueling North Texas' growth: https://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/ Legends of CRE, Season 1: https://soundcloud.com/trecdallas/sets/legends-of-commercial-real Legends of CRE, Season 2: https://soundcloud.com/trecdallas/sets/legends-of-cre-ssn-2 Subscribe to TRECcast Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/treccast/id1438048995 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7df4hgNUizIRV35pzXltno Amazon Music: https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/55396a83-c374-403d-ab3f-8ad2e7b59861/treccast Have an idea for an episode topic or guest? Email bsanantonio@recouncil.com. Follow TREC on Social Media Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/therealestatecouncil Twitter: https://twitter.com/TRECDallas Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/trecdallas/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-real-estate-council YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCk-GkSGoJOltGV34Yt83GRA

Crime is rising across the country and it's no secret why. Bail reform and leftist judges releasing murder suspects back on the streets. Two experts on crime join us to talk about how we got to this point and what we can do to stop it. Officer Ray Hunt is the Executive Director of the Houston Police Officers' Union. Rania Mankarious is the CEO of Crime Stoppers of Houston, a non-profit dedicated to solving and preventing serious crimes.  This episode was recorded in front of a live audience as part of the Coffee With Crenshaw series that Dan regularly hosts in Texas' 2nd Congressional District. If you live in the district and would like to attend, sign up for our newsletter here: https://crenshaw.house.gov/

Lester Buckley is an unusual, multi-disciplinary teacher of both horsemanship and the principles of Classical Dressage. He is respected among his peers as one of the most accomplished equestrians and gifted teachers in the business today. Lester grew up in the historic cattle country of North Texas. He earned his B. S. in Equine Science from Sul Ross State University in Texas. As part of his college education, Lester worked with Ray Hunt in colt starting and horsemanship classes over a four-year period. After graduation, Lester went on to starting colts for the King Ranch in Texas and the Parker Ranch in Hawaii, personally starting over 3000 horses. He apprenticed with National Cutting Horse Hall of Fame rider Willie Richardson for seven years, and was a successful cutting competitor himself, earning a rank of #2 in the World Open Senior Horse Cutters in 1999.

From Buck's facebook page..."You know the thing about Buck, he never quit trying to learn. So many came to a clinic, started doing clinics and you never saw them again. They all studied with Ray Hunt or the Dorrances, maybe one clinic. They all used Ray's name , but Buck showed up year after year. When Ray was in the hospital Buck was at the ranch filling in for Ray, doing his classes. Feel free to choose a mentor that you like for his or her style. What about the inside, what's the integrity . I know who I'd choose!" - Carolyn HuntImage of Buck is by Justin McManus.LISTEN IN as Howard and Buck talk about the influence Ray Hunt had on his horsemanship on The Horseman's Corner!

Episode one hundred and forty of A History of Rock Music in Five Hundred Songs looks at “Trouble Every Day" by the Mothers of Invention, and the early career of Frank Zappa. Click the full post to read liner notes, links to more information, and a transcript of the episode. Patreon backers also have a ten-minute bonus episode available, on "Christmas Time is Here Again" by the Beatles. Tilt Araiza has assisted invaluably by doing a first-pass edit, and will hopefully be doing so from now on. Check out Tilt's irregular podcasts at http://www.podnose.com/jaffa-cakes-for-proust and http://sitcomclub.com/ Resources I'm away from home as I upload this and haven't been able to do a Mixcloud, but will hopefully edit a link in in a week or so if I remember. The main biography I consulted for this was Electric Don Quixote by Neil Slaven. Zappa's autobiography, The Real Frank Zappa Book, is essential reading if you're a fan of his work. Information about Jimmy Carl Black's early life came from Black's autobiography, For Mother's Sake. Zappa's letter to Varese is from this blog, which also contains a lot of other useful information on Zappa. For information on the Watts uprising, I recommend Johnny Otis' Listen to the Lambs. And the original mix of Freak Out is currently available not on the CD issue of Freak Out itself, which is an eighties remix, but on this "documentary" set. Patreon This podcast is brought to you by the generosity of my backers on Patreon. Why not join them? Transcript Just a quick note before I begin -- there are a couple of passing references in this episode to rape and child abuse. I don't believe there's anything that should upset anyone, but if you're worried, you might want to read the transcript on the podcast website before or instead of listening. But also, this episode contains explicit, detailed, descriptions of racial violence carried out by the police against Black people, including against children. Some of it is so distressing that even reading the transcript might be a bit much for some people. Sometimes, in this podcast, we have to go back to another story we've already told. In most cases, that story is recent enough that I can just say, "remember last episode, when I said...", but to tell the story of the Mothers of Invention, I have to start with a story that I told sixty-nine episodes ago, in episode seventy-one, which came out nearly two years ago. In that episode, on "Willie and the Hand Jive", I briefly told the story of Little Julian Herrera at the start. I'm going to tell a slightly longer version of the story now. Some of the information at the start of this episode will be familiar from that and other episodes, but I'm not going to expect people to remember something from that long ago, given all that's happened since. The DJ Art Laboe is one of the few figures from the dawn of rock and roll who is still working. At ninety-six years old, he still promotes concerts, and hosts a syndicated radio show on which he plays "Oldies but Goodies", a phrase which could describe him as well as the music. It's a phrase he coined -- and trademarked -- back in the 1950s, when people in his audience would ask him to play records made a whole three or four years earlier, records they had listened to in their youth. Laboe pretty much single-handedly invented the rock and roll nostalgia market -- as well as being a DJ, he owned a record label, Original Sound, which put out a series of compilation albums, Oldies But Goodies, starting in 1959, which started to cement the first draft of the doo-wop canon. These were the first albums to compile together a set of older rock and roll hits and market them for nostalgia, and they were very much based on the tastes of his West Coast teenage listenership, featuring songs like "Earth Angel" by the Penguins: [Excerpt: The Penguins, "Earth Angel"] But also records that had a more limited geographic appeal, like "Heaven and Paradise" by Don Julian and the Meadowlarks: [Excerpt: Don Julian and the Meadowlarks, "Heaven and Paradise"] As well as being a DJ and record company owner, Laboe was the promoter and MC for regular teenage dances at El Monte Legion Stadium, at which Kip and the Flips, the band that featured Sandy Nelson and Bruce Johnston, would back local performers like the Penguins, Don and Dewey, or Ritchie Valens, as well as visiting headliners like Jerry Lee Lewis. El Monte stadium was originally chosen because it was outside the LA city limits -- at the time there were anti-rock-and-roll ordinances that meant that any teenage dance had to be approved by the LA Board of Education, but those didn't apply to that stadium -- but it also led to Laboe's audience becoming more racially diverse. The stadium was in East LA, which had a large Mexican-American population, and while Laboe's listenership had initially been very white, soon there were substantial numbers of Mexican-American and Black audience members. And it was at one of the El Monte shows that Johnny Otis discovered the person who everyone thought was going to become the first Chicano rock star, before even Ritchie Valens, in 1957, performing as one of the filler acts on Laboe's bill. He signed Little Julian Herrera, a performer who was considered a sensation in East LA at the time, though nobody really knew where he lived, or knew much about him other than that he was handsome, Chicano, and would often have a pint of whisky in his back pocket, even though he was under the legal drinking age. Otis signed Herrera to his label, Dig Records, and produced several records for him, including the record by which he's now best remembered, "Those Lonely Lonely Nights": [Excerpt: Little Julian Herrera, "Those Lonely, Lonely, Nights"] After those didn't take off the way they were expected to, Herrera and his vocal group the Tigers moved to another label, one owned by Laboe, where they recorded "I Remember Linda": [Excerpt: Little Julian Herrera and the Tigers, "I Remember Linda"]  And then one day Johnny Otis got a knock on his door from the police. They were looking for Ron Gregory. Otis had never heard of Ron Gregory, and told them so. The police then showed him a picture. It turned out that Julian Herrera wasn't Mexican-American, and wasn't from East LA, but was from Massachusetts. He had run away from home a few years back, hitch-hiked across the country, and been taken in by a Mexican-American family, whose name he had adopted. And now he was wanted for rape. Herrera went to prison, and when he got out, he tried to make a comeback, but ended up sleeping rough in the basement of the stadium where he had once been discovered. He had to skip town because of some other legal problems, and headed to Tijuana, where he was last seen playing R&B gigs in 1963. Nobody knows what happened to him after that -- some say he was murdered, others that he's still alive, working in a petrol station under yet another name, but nobody has had a confirmed sighting of him since then. When he went to prison, the Tigers tried to continue for a while, but without their lead singer, they soon broke up. Ray Collins, who we heard singing the falsetto part in "I Remember Linda", went on to join many other doo-wop and R&B groups over the next few years, with little success. Then in summer 1963, he walked into a bar in Ponoma, and saw a bar band who were playing the old Hank Ballard and the Midnighters song "Work With Me Annie". As Collins later put it, “I figured that any band that played ‘Work With Me Annie' was all right,” and he asked if he could join them for a few songs. They agreed, and afterwards, Collins struck up a conversation with the guitarist, and told him about an idea he'd had for a song based on one of Steve Allen's catchphrases. The guitarist happened to be spending a lot of his time recording at an independent recording studio, and suggested that the two of them record the song together: [Excerpt: Baby Ray and the Ferns, "How's Your Bird?"] The guitarist in question was named Frank Zappa. Zappa was originally from Maryland, but had moved to California as a child with his conservative Italian-American family when his father, a defence contractor, had got a job in Monterey. The family had moved around California with his father's work, mostly living in various small towns in the Mojave desert seventy miles or so north of Los Angeles. Young Frank had an interest in science, especially chemistry, and especially things that exploded, but while he managed to figure out the ingredients for gunpowder, his family couldn't afford to buy him a chemistry set in his formative years -- they were so poor that his father regularly took part in medical experiments to get a bit of extra money to feed his kids -- and so the young man's interest was diverted away from science towards music. His first musical interest, and one that would show up in his music throughout his life, was the comedy music of Spike Jones, whose band combined virtuosic instrumental performances with sound effects: [Excerpt: Spike Jones and his City Slickers, "Cocktails for Two"] and parodies of popular classical music [Excerpt: Spike Jones and his City Slickers, "William Tell Overture"] Jones was a huge inspiration for almost every eccentric or bohemian of the 1940s and 50s -- Spike Milligan, for example, took the name Spike in tribute to him. And young Zappa wrote his first ever fan letter to Jones when he was five or six. As a child Zappa was also fascinated by the visual aesthetics of music -- he liked to draw musical notes on staves and see what they looked like. But his musical interests developed in two other ways once he entered his teens. The first was fairly typical for the musicians of his generation from LA we've looked at and will continue to look at, which is that he heard "Gee" by the Crows on the radio: [Excerpt: The Crows, "Gee"] He became an R&B obsessive at that moment, and would spend every moment he could listening to the Black radio stations, despite his parents' disapproval. He particularly enjoyed Huggy Boy's radio show broadcast from Dolphins of Hollywood, and also would religiously listen to Johnny Otis, and soon became a connoisseur of the kind of R&B and blues that Otis championed as a musician and DJ: [Excerpt: Zappa on the Late Show, “I hadn't been raised in an environment where there was a lot of music in the house. This couple that owned the chilli place, Opal and Chester, agreed to ask the man who serviced the jukebox to put in some of the song titles that I liked, because I promised that I would dutifully keep pumping quarters into this thing so that I could listen to them, and so I had the ability to eat good chilli and listen to 'Three Hours Past Midnight' by Johnny 'Guitar' Watson for most of my junior and senior year"] Johnny “Guitar” Watson, along with Guitar Slim, would become a formative influence on Zappa's guitar playing, and his playing on "Three Hours Past Midnight" is so similar to Zappa's later style that you could easily believe it *was* him: [Excerpt: Johnny "Guitar" Watson, "Three Hours Past Midnight"] But Zappa wasn't only listening to R&B. The way Zappa would always tell the story, he discovered the music that would set him apart from his contemporaries originally by reading an article in Look magazine. Now, because Zappa has obsessive fans who check every detail, people have done the research and found that there was no such article in that magazine, but he was telling the story close enough to the time period in which it happened that its broad strokes, at least, must be correct even if the details are wrong. What Zappa said was that the article was on Sam Goody, the record salesman, and talked about how Goody was so good at his job that he had even been able to sell a record of Ionisation by Edgard Varese, which just consisted of the worst and most horrible noises anyone had ever heard, just loud drumming noises and screeching sounds. He determined then that he needed to hear that album, but he had no idea how he would get hold of a copy. I'll now read an excerpt from Zappa's autobiography, because Zappa's phrasing makes the story much better: "Some time later, I was staying overnight with Dave Franken, a friend who lived in La Mesa, and we wound up going to the hi-fi place -- they were having a sale on R&B singles. After shuffling through the rack and finding a couple of Joe Huston records, I made my way toward the cash register and happened to glance at the LP bin. I noticed a strange-looking black-and-white album cover with a guy on it who had frizzy gray hair and looked like a mad scientist. I thought it was great that a mad scientist had finally made a record, so I picked it up -- and there it was, the record with "Ionisation" on it. The author of the Look article had gotten it slightly wrong -- the correct title was The Complete Works of Edgard Varèse, Volume I, including "Ionisation," among other pieces, on an obscure label called EMS (Elaine Music Store). The record number was 401.I returned the Joe Huston records and checked my pockets to see how much money I had -- I think it came to about $3.75. I'd never bought an album before, but I knew they must be expensive because mostly old people bought them. I asked the man at the cash register how much EMS 401 cost. "That gray one in the box?" he said. "$5.95." I'd been searching for that record for over a year and I wasn't about to give up. I told him I had $3.75. He thought about it for a minute, and said, "We've been using that record to demonstrate hi-fi's with -- but nobody ever buys one when we use it. I guess if you want it that bad you can have it for $3.75."" Zappa took the record home, and put it on on his mother's record player in the living room, the only one that could play LPs: [Excerpt: Edgard Varese, "Ionisation"] His mother told him he could never play that record in the living room again, so he took the record player into his bedroom, and it became his record player from that point on. Varese was a French composer who had, in his early career, been very influenced by Debussy. Debussy is now, of course, part of the classical canon, but in the early twentieth century he was regarded as radical, almost revolutionary, for his complete rewriting of the rules of conventional classical music tonality into a new conception based on chordal melodies, pedal points, and use of non-diatonic scales. Almost all of Varese's early work was destroyed in a fire, so we don't have evidence of the transition from Debussy's romantic-influenced impressionism to Varese's later style, but after he had moved to the US in 1915 he had become wildly more experimental. "Ionisation" is often claimed to be the first piece of Western classical music written only for percussion instruments. Varese was part of a wider movement of modernist composers -- for example he was the best man at Nicolas Slonimsky's wedding -- and had also set up the International Composers' Guild, whose manifesto influenced Zappa, though his libertarian politics led him to adapt it to a more individualistic rather than collective framing. The original manifesto read in part "Dying is the privilege of the weary. The present day composers refuse to die. They have realized the necessity of banding together and fighting for the right of each individual to secure a fair and free presentation of his work" In the twenties and thirties, Varese had written a large number of highly experimental pieces, including Ecuatorial, which was written for bass vocal, percussion, woodwind, and two Theremin cellos. These are not the same as the more familiar Theremin, created by the same inventor, and were, as their name suggests, Theremins that were played like a cello, with a fingerboard and bow. Only ten of these were ever made, specifically for performances of Varese's work, and he later rewrote the work to use ondes martenot instead of Theremin cellos, which is how the work is normally heard now: [Excerpt: Edgard Varese, "Ecuatorial"] But Varese had spent much of the thirties, forties, and early fifties working on two pieces that were never finished, based on science fiction ideas -- L'Astronome, which was meant to be about communication with people from the star Sirius, and Espace, which was originally intended to be performed simultaneously by choirs in Beijing, Moscow, Paris, and New York. Neither of these ideas came to fruition, and so Varese had not released any new work, other than one small piece, Étude pour espace, an excerpt from the  larger work, in Zappa's lifetime. Zappa followed up his interest in Varese's music with his music teacher, one of the few people in the young man's life who encouraged him in his unusual interests. That teacher, Mr Kavelman, introduced Zappa to the work of other composers, like Webern, but would also let him know why he liked particular R&B records. For example, Zappa played Mr. Kavelman "Angel in My Life" by the Jewels, and asked what it was that made him particularly like it: [Excerpt: The Jewels, "Angel in My Life"] The teacher's answer was that it was the parallel fourths that made the record particularly appealing. Young Frank was such a big fan of Varese that for his fifteenth birthday, he actually asked if he could make a long-distance phone call to speak to Varese. He didn't know where Varese lived, but figured that it must be in Greenwich Village because that was where composers lived, and he turned out to be right. He didn't get through on his birthday -- he got Varese's wife, who told him the composer was in Europe -- but he did eventually get to speak to him, and was incredibly excited when Varese told him that not only had he just written a new piece for the first time in years, but that it was called Deserts, and was about deserts -- just like the Mojave Desert where Zappa lived: [Excerpt: Edgard Varese, "Deserts"] As he later wrote, “When you're 15 and living in the Mojave Desert, and you find out that the World's Greatest Composer (who also looks like a mad scientist) is working in a secret Greenwich Village laboratory on a song about your hometown (so to speak), you can get pretty excited.” A year later, Zappa actually wrote to Varese, a long letter which included him telling the story about how he'd found his work in the first place, hoping to meet up with him when Zappa travelled to the East Coast to see family. I'll read out a few extracts, but the whole thing is fascinating for what it says about Zappa the precocious adolescent, and I'll link to a blog post with it in the show notes. "Dear Sir: Perhaps you might remember me from my stupid phone call last January, if not, my name again is Frank Zappa Jr. I am 16 years old… that might explain partly my disturbing you last winter. After I had struggled through Mr. Finklestein's notes on the back cover (I really did struggle too, for at the time I had had no training in music other than practice at drum rudiments) I became more and more interested in you and your music. I began to go to the library and take out books on modern composers and modern music, to learn all I could about Edgard Varese. It got to be my best subject (your life) and I began writing my reports and term papers on you at school. At one time when my history teacher asked us to write on an American that has really done something for the U.S.A. I wrote on you and the Pan American Composers League and the New Symphony. I failed. The teacher had never heard of you and said I made the whole thing up. Silly but true. That was my Sophomore year in high school. Throughout my life all the talents and abilities that God has left me with have been self developed, and when the time came for Frank to learn how to read and write music, Frank taught himself that too. I picked it all up from the library. I have been composing for two years now, utilizing a strict twelve-tone technique, producing effects that are reminiscent of Anton Webern. During those two years I have written two short woodwind quartets and a short symphony for winds, brass and percussion. I plan to go on and be a composer after college and I could really use the counsel of a veteran such as you. If you would allow me to visit with you for even a few hours it would be greatly appreciated. It may sound strange but I think I have something to offer you in the way of new ideas. One is an elaboration on the principle of Ruth Seeger's contrapuntal dynamics and the other is an extension of the twelve-tone technique which I call the inversion square. It enables one to compose harmonically constructed pantonal music in logical patterns and progressions while still abandoning tonality. Varese sent a brief reply, saying that he was going to be away for a few months, but would like to meet Zappa on his return. The two never met, but Zappa kept the letter from Varese framed on his wall for the rest of his life. Zappa soon bought a couple more albums, a version of "The Rite of Spring" by Stravinsky: [Excerpt: Igor Stravinsky, "The Rite of Spring"] And a record of pieces by Webern, including his Symphony opus 21: [Excerpt: Anton Webern, "Symphony op. 21"] (Incidentally, with the classical music here, I'm not seeking out the precise performances Zappa was listening to, just using whichever recordings I happen to have copies of). Zappa was also reading Slonimsky's works of musicology, like the Thesaurus of Scales and Melodic Patterns. As well as this "serious music" though, Zappa was also developing as an R&B musician.  He later said of the Webern album, "I loved that record, but it was about as different from Stravinsky and Varèse as you could get. I didn't know anything about twelve-tone music then, but I liked the way it sounded. Since I didn't have any kind of formal training, it didn't make any difference to me if I was listening to Lightnin' Slim, or a vocal group called the Jewels (who had a song out then called "Angel in My Life"), or Webern, or Varèse, or Stravinsky. To me it was all good music." He had started as a drummer with a group called the Blackouts, an integrated group with white, Latino, and Black members, who played R&B tracks like "Directly From My Heart to You", the song Johnny Otis had produced for Little Richard: [Excerpt: Little Richard, "Directly From My Heart to You"] But after eighteen months or so, he quit the group and stopped playing drums. Instead, he switched to guitar, with a style influenced by Johnny "Guitar" Watson and Guitar Slim. His first guitar had action so bad that he didn't learn to play chords, and moved straight on to playing lead lines with his younger brother Bobby playing rhythm. He also started hanging around with two other teenage bohemians -- Euclid Sherwood, who was nicknamed Motorhead, and Don Vliet, who called himself Don Van Vliet. Vliet was a truly strange character, even more so than Zappa, but they shared a love for the blues, and Vliet was becoming a fairly good blues singer, though he hadn't yet perfected the Howlin' Wolf imitation that would become his stock-in-trade in later years. But the surviving recording of Vliet singing with the Zappa brothers on guitar, singing a silly parody blues about being flushed down the toilet of the kind that many teenage boys would write, shows the promise that the two men had: [Excerpt: Frank Zappa and Captain Beefheart, "Lost in a Whirlpool"] Zappa was also getting the chance to hear his more serious music performed. He'd had the high school band play a couple of his pieces, but he also got the chance to write film music -- his English teacher, Don Cerveris, had decided to go off and seek his fortune as a film scriptwriter, and got Zappa hired to write the music for a cheap Western he'd written, Run Home Slow. The film was beset with problems -- it started filming in 1959 but didn't get finished and released until 1965 -- but the music Zappa wrote for it did eventually get recorded and used on the soundtrack: [Excerpt: Frank Zappa, "Run Home Slow Theme"] In 1962, he got to write the music for another film, The World's Greatest Sinner, and he also wrote a theme song for that, which got released as the B-side of "How's Your Bird?", the record he made with Ray Collins: [Excerpt: Baby Ray and the Ferns, "The World's Greatest Sinner"] Zappa was able to make these records because by the early sixties, as well as playing guitar in bar bands, he was working as an assistant for a man named Paul Buff. Paul Buff had worked as an engineer for a guided missile manufacturer, but had decided that he didn't want to do that any more, and instead had opened up the first independent multi-track recording studio on the West Coast, PAL Studios, using equipment he'd designed and built himself, including a five-track tape recorder. Buff engineered a huge number of surf instrumentals there, including "Wipe Out" by the Surfaris: [Excerpt: The Surfaris, "Wipe Out"] Zappa had first got to know Buff when he had come to Buff's studio with some session musicians in 1961, to record some jazz pieces he'd written, including this piece which at the time was in the style of Dave Brubeck but would later become a staple of Zappa's repertoire reorchestrated in a  rock style. [Excerpt: The PAL Studio Band, "Never on Sunday"] Buff really just wanted to make records entirely by himself, so he'd taught himself to play the rudiments of guitar, bass, drums, piano, and alto saxophone, so he could create records alone. He would listen to every big hit record, figure out what the hooks were on the record, and write his own knock-off of those. An example is "Tijuana Surf" by the Hollywood Persuaders, which is actually Buff on all instruments, and which according to Zappa went to number one in Mexico (though I've not found an independent source to confirm that chart placing, so perhaps take it with a pinch of salt): [Excerpt: The Hollywood Persuaders, "Tijuana Surf"] The B-side to that, "Grunion Run", was written by Zappa, who also plays guitar on that side: [Excerpt: The Hollywood Persuaders, "Grunion Run"] Zappa, Buff, Ray Collins, and a couple of associates would record all sorts of material at PAL -- comedy material like "Hey Nelda", under the name "Ned and Nelda" -- a parody of "Hey Paula" by Paul and Paula: [Excerpt: Ned and Nelda, "Hey Nelda"] Doo-wop parodies like "Masked Grandma": [Excerpt: The PAL Studio Band, "Masked Grandma"] R&B: [Excerpt: The PAL Studio Band, "Why Don't You Do Me Right?"] and more. Then Buff or Zappa would visit one of the local independent label owners and try to sell them the master -- Art Laboe at Original Sound released several of the singles, as did Bob Keane at Donna Records and Del-Fi. The "How's Your Bird" single also got Zappa his first national media exposure, as he went on the Steve Allen show, where he demonstrated to Allen how to make music using a bicycle and a prerecorded electronic tape, in an appearance that Zappa would parody five years later on the Monkees' TV show: [Excerpt: Steve Allen and Frank Zappa, "Cyclophony"] But possibly the record that made the most impact at the time was "Memories of El Monte", a song that Zappa and Collins wrote together about Art Laboe's dances at El Monte Stadium, incorporating excerpts of several of the songs that would be played there, and named after a compilation Laboe had put out, which had included “I Remember Linda” by Little Julian and the Tigers. They got Cleve Duncan of the Penguins to sing lead, and the record came out as by the Penguins, on Original Sound: [Excerpt: The Penguins, "Memories of El Monte"] By this point, though, Pal studios was losing money, and Buff took up the offer of a job working for Laboe full time, as an engineer at Original Sound. He would later become best known for inventing the kepex, an early noise gate which engineer Alan Parsons used on a bass drum to create the "heartbeat" that opens Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon: [Excerpt: Pink Floyd, "Speak to Me"] That invention would possibly be Buff's most lasting contribution to music, as by the early eighties, the drum sound on every single pop record was recorded using a noise gate. Buff sold the studio to Zappa, who renamed it Studio Z and moved in -- he was going through a divorce and had nowhere else to live. The studio had no shower, and Zappa had to just use a sink to wash, and he was surviving mostly off food scrounged by his resourceful friend Motorhead Sherwood. By this point, Zappa had also joined a band called the Soots, consisting of Don Van Vliet, Alex St. Clair and Vic Mortenson, and they recorded several tracks at Studio Z, which they tried to get released on Dot Records, including a cover version of Little Richard's “Slippin' and Slidin'”, and a song called “Tiger Roach” whose lyrics were mostly random phrases culled from a Green Lantern comic: [Excerpt: The Soots, "Tiger Roach"] Zappa also started writing what was intended as the first ever rock opera, "I Was a Teenage Maltshop", and attempts were made to record parts of it with Vliet, Mortenson, and Motorhead Sherwood: [Excerpt: Frank Zappa, "I Was a Teenage Maltshop"] Zappa was also planning to turn Studio Z into a film studio. He obtained some used film equipment, and started planning a science fiction film to feature Vliet, titled "Captain Beefheart Meets the Grunt People". The title was inspired by an uncle of Vliet's, who lived with Vliet and his girlfriend, and used to urinate with the door open so he could expose himself to Vliet's girlfriend, saying as he did so "Look at that! Looks just like a big beef heart!" Unfortunately, the film would not get very far. Zappa was approached by a used-car salesman who said that he and his friends were having a stag party. As Zappa owned a film studio, could he make them a pornographic film to show at the party? Zappa told him that a film wouldn't be possible, but as he needed the money, would an audio tape be acceptable? The used-car salesman said that it would, and gave him a list of sex acts he and his friends would like to hear. Zappa and a friend, Lorraine Belcher, went into the studio and made a few grunting noises and sound effects. The used-car salesman turned out actually to be an undercover policeman, who was better known in the area for his entrapment of gay men, but had decided to branch out. Zappa and Belcher were arrested -- Zappa's father bailed him out, and Zappa got an advance from Art Laboe to pay Belcher's bail. Luckily "Grunion Run" and "Memories of El Monte" were doing well enough that Laboe could give Zappa a $1500 advance. When the case finally came to trial, the judge laughed at the tape and wanted to throw the whole case out, but the prosecutor insisted on fighting, and Zappa got ten days in prison, and most of his tapes were impounded, never to be returned. He fell behind with his rent, and Studio Z was demolished. And then Ray Collins called him, asking if he wanted to join a bar band: [Excerpt: The Mothers, "Hitch-Hike"] The Soul Giants were formed by a bass player named Roy Estrada. Now, Estrada is unfortunately someone who will come up in the story a fair bit over the next year or so, as he played on several of the most important records to come out of LA in the sixties and early seventies. He is also someone about whom there's fairly little biographical information -- he's not been interviewed much, compared to pretty much everyone else, and it's easy to understand why when you realise that he's currently half-way through a twenty-five year sentence for child molestation -- his third such conviction. He won't get out of prison until he's ninety-three. He's one of the most despicable people who will turn up in this podcast, and frankly I'm quite glad I don't know more about him as a person. He was, though, a good bass player and falsetto singer, and he had released a single on King Records, an instrumental titled "Jungle Dreams": [Excerpt, Roy Estrada and the Rocketeers, "Jungle Dreams"] The other member of the rhythm section, Jimmy Carl Black, was an American Indian (that's the term he always used about himself until his death, and so that's the term I'll use about him too) from Texas. Black had grown up in El Paso as a fan of Western Swing music, especially Bob Wills, but had become an R&B fan after discovering Wolfman Jack's radio show and hearing the music of Howlin' Wolf and Sonny Boy Williamson. Like every young man from El Paso, he would travel to Juarez as a teenager to get drunk, see sex shows, and raise hell. It was also there that he saw his first live blues music, watching Long John Hunter, the same man who inspired the Bobby Fuller Four, and he would always claim Hunter as the man whose shows taught him how to play the blues. Black had decided he wanted to become a musician when he'd seen Elvis perform live. In Black's memory, this was a gig where Elvis was an unknown support act for Faron Young and Wanda Jackson, but he was almost certainly slightly misremembering -- it's most likely that what he saw was Elvis' show in El Paso on the eleventh of April 1956, where Young and Jackson were also on the bill, but supporting Elvis who was headlining. Either way, Black had decided that he wanted to make girls react to him the same way they reacted to Elvis, and he started playing in various country and R&B bands. His first record was with a group called the Keys, and unfortunately I haven't been able to track down a copy (it was reissued on a CD in the nineties, but the CD itself is now out of print and sells for sixty pounds) but he did rerecord the song with a later group he led, the Mannish Boys: [Excerpt: Jimmy Carl Black and the Mannish Boys, "Stretch Pants"] He spent a couple of years in the Air Force, but continued playing music during that time, including in a band called The Exceptions which featured Peter Cetera later of the band Chicago, on bass. After a brief time working as lineman in Wichita, he moved his family to California, where he got a job teaching drums at a music shop in Anaheim, where the bass teacher was Jim Fielder, who would later play bass in Blood, Sweat, and Tears. One of Fielder's friends, Tim Buckley, used to hang around in the shop as well, and Black was at first irritated by him coming in and playing the guitars and not buying anything, but eventually became impressed by his music. Black would later introduce Buckley to Herb Cohen, who would become Buckley's manager, starting his professional career. When Roy Estrada came into the shop, he and Black struck up a friendship, and Estrada asked Black to join his band The Soul Giants, whose lineup became Estrada, Black, a sax player named Davey Coronado, a guitarist called Larry and a singer called Dave. The group got a residency at the Broadside club in Ponoma, playing "Woolly Bully" and "Louie Louie" and other garage-band staples. But then Larry and Dave got drafted, and the group got in two men called Ray -- Ray Collins on vocals, and Ray Hunt on guitar. This worked for a little while, but Ray Hunt was, by all accounts, not a great guitar player -- he would play wrong chords, and also he was fundamentally a surf player while the Soul Giants were an R&B group. Eventually, Collins and Hunt got into a fistfight, and Collins suggested that they get in his friend Frank instead. For a while, the Soul Giants continued playing "Midnight Hour" and "Louie Louie", but then Zappa suggested that they start playing some of his original material as well. Davy Coronado refused to play original material, because he thought, correctly, that it would lose the band gigs, but the rest of the band sided with the man who had quickly become their new leader. Coronado moved back to Texas, and on Mother's Day 1965 the Soul Giants changed their name to the Mothers. They got in Henry Vestine on second guitar, and started playing Zappa's originals, as well as changing the lyrics to some of the hits they were playing: [Excerpt: The Mothers, "Plastic People"] Zappa had started associating with the freak crowd in Hollywood centred around Vito and Franzoni, after being introduced by Don Cerveris, his old teacher turned screenwriter, to an artist called Mark Cheka, who Zappa invited to manage the group. Cheka in turn brought in his friend Herb Cohen, who managed several folk acts including the Modern Folk Quartet and Judy Henske, and who like Zappa had once been arrested on obscenity charges, in Cohen's case for promoting gigs by the comedian Lenny Bruce. Cohen first saw the Mothers when they were recording their appearance in an exploitation film called Mondo Hollywood. They were playing in a party scene, using equipment borrowed from Jim Guercio, a session musician who would briefly join the Mothers, but who is now best known for having been Chicago's manager and producing hit records for them and Blood, Sweat, and Tears. In the crowd were Vito and Franzoni, Bryan Maclean, Ram Dass, the Harvard psychologist who had collaborated with Timothy Leary in controversial LSD experiments that had led to both losing their jobs, and other stalwarts of the Sunset Strip scene. Cohen got the group bookings at the Whisky A-Go-Go and The Trip, two of the premier LA nightclubs, and Zappa would also sit in with other bands playing at those venues, like the Grass Roots, a band featuring Bryan Maclean and Arthur Lee which would soon change its name to Love. At this time Zappa and Henry Vestine lived together, next door to a singer named Victoria Winston, who at the time was in a duo called Summer's Children with Curt Boettcher: [Excerpt: Summer's Children, "Milk and Honey"] Winston, like Zappa, was a fan of Edgard Varese, and actually asked Zappa to write songs for Summer's Children, but one of the partners involved in their production company disliked Zappa's material and the collaboration went no further. Zappa at this point was trying to incorporate more ideas from modal jazz into his music. He was particularly impressed by Eric Dolphy's 1964 album "Out to Lunch": [Excerpt: Eric Dolphy, "Hat and Beard"] But he was also writing more about social issues, and in particular he had written a song called "The Watts Riots Song", which would later be renamed "Trouble Every Day": [Excerpt: The Mothers of Invention, "Trouble Every Day"] Now, the Watts Uprising was one of the most important events in Black American history, and it feels quite wrong that I'm covering it in an episode about a band made up of white, Latino, and American Indian people rather than a record made by Black people, but I couldn't find any way to fit it in anywhere else. As you will remember me saying in the episode on "I Fought the Law", the LA police under Chief William Parker were essentially a criminal gang by any other name -- they were incompetent, violent, and institutionally racist, and terrorised Black people. The Black people of LA were also feeling particularly aggrieved in the summer of 1965, as a law banning segregation in housing had been overturned by a ballot proposition in November 1964, sponsored by the real estate industry and passed by an overwhelming majority of white voters in what Martin Luther King called "one of the most shameful developments in our nation's history", and which Edmund Brown, the Democratic governor said was like "another hate binge which began more than 30 years ago in a Munich beer hall". Then on Wednesday, August 11, 1965, the police pulled over a Black man, Marquette Frye, for drunk driving. He had been driving his mother's car, and she lived nearby, and she came out to shout at him about drinking and driving. The mother, Rena Price, was hit by one of the policemen; Frye then physically attacked one of the police for hitting his mother, one of the police pulled out a gun, a crowd gathered, the police became violent against the crowd, a rumour spread that they had kicked a pregnant woman, and the resulting protests were exacerbated by the police carrying out what Chief Parker described as a "paramiltary" response. The National Guard were called in, huge swathes of south central LA were cordoned off by the police with signs saying things like "turn left or get shot". Black residents started setting fire to and looting local white-owned businesses that had been exploiting Black workers and customers, though this looting was very much confined to individuals who were known to have made the situation worse. Eventually it took six days for the uprising to be put down, at a cost of thirty-four deaths, 1032 injuries, and 3438 arrests. Of the deaths, twenty-three were Black civilians murdered by the police, and zero were police murdered by Black civilians (two police were killed by other police, in accidental shootings). The civil rights activist Bayard Rustin said of the uprising, "The whole point of the outbreak in Watts was that it marked the first major rebellion of Negroes against their own masochism and was carried on with the express purpose of asserting that they would no longer quietly submit to the deprivation of slum life." Frank Zappa's musical hero Johnny Otis would later publish the book Listen to the Lambs about the Watts rebellion, and in it he devotes more than thirty pages to eyewitness accounts from Black people. It's an absolutely invaluable resource. One of the people Otis interviews is Lily Ford, who is described by my copy of the book as being the "lead singer of the famous Roulettes". This is presumably an error made by the publishers, rather than Otis, because Ford was actually a singer with the Raelettes, as in Ray Charles' vocal group. She also recorded with Otis under the name "Lily of the Valley": [Excerpt: Lily of the Valley, "I Had a Sweet Dream"] Now, Ford's account deserves a large excerpt, but be warned, this is very, very difficult to hear. I gave a content warning at the beginning, but I'm going to give another one here. "A lot of our people were in the street, seeing if they could get free food and clothes and furniture, and some of them taking liquor too. But the white man was out for blood. Then three boys came down the street, laughing and talking. They were teenagers, about fifteen or sixteen years old. As they got right at the store they seemed to debate whether they would go inside. One boy started a couple of times to go. Finally he did. Now a cop car finally stops to investigate. Police got out of the car. Meanwhile, the other two boys had seen them coming and they ran. My brother-in-law and I were screaming and yelling for the boy to get out. He didn't hear us, or was too scared to move. He never had a chance. This young cop walked up to the broken window and looked in as the other one went round the back and fired some shots and I just knew he'd killed the other two boys, but I guess he missed. He came around front again. By now other police cars had come. The cop at the window aimed his gun. He stopped and looked back at a policeman sitting in a car. He aimed again. No shot. I tried to scream, but I was so horrified that nothing would come out of my throat. The third time he aimed he yelled, "Halt", and fired before the word was out of his mouth. Then he turned around and made a bull's-eye sign with his fingers to his partner. Just as though he had shot a tin can off a fence, not a human being. The cops stood around for ten or fifteen minutes without going inside to see if the kid was alive or dead. When the ambulance came, then they went in. They dragged him out like he was a sack of potatoes. Cops were everywhere now. So many cops for just one murder." [Excerpt: The Mothers of Invention, "Trouble Every Day"] There's a lot more of this sort of account in Otis' book, and it's all worth reading -- indeed, I would argue that it is *necessary* reading. And Otis keeps making a point which I quoted back in the episode on "Willie and the Hand Jive" but which I will quote again here -- “A newborn Negro baby has less chance of survival than a white. A Negro baby will have its life ended seven years sooner. This is not some biological phenomenon linked to skin colour, like sickle-cell anaemia; this is a national crime, linked to a white-supremacist way of life and compounded by indifference”. (Just a reminder, the word “Negro” which Otis uses there was, in the mid-sixties, the term of choice used by Black people.) And it's this which inspired "The Watts Riot Song", which the Mothers were playing when Tom Wilson was brought into The Trip by Herb Cohen: [Excerpt: The Mothers of Invention, "Trouble Every Day"] Wilson had just moved from Columbia, where he'd been producing Dylan and Simon and Garfunkel, to Verve, a subsidiary of MGM which was known for jazz records but was moving into rock and roll. Wilson was looking for a white blues band, and thought he'd found one. He signed the group without hearing any other songs. Henry Vestine quit the group between the signing and the first recording, to go and join an *actual* white blues band, Canned Heat, and over the next year the group's lineup would fluctuate quite a bit around the core of Zappa, Collins, Estrada, and Black, with members like Steve Mann, Jim Guercio, Jim Fielder, and Van Dyke Parks coming and going, often without any recordings being made of their performances. The lineup on what became the group's first album, Freak Out! was Zappa, Collins, Estrada, Black, and Elliot Ingber, the former guitarist with the Gamblers, who had joined the group shortly before the session and would leave within a few months. The first track the group recorded, "Any Way the Wind Blows", was straightforward enough: [Excerpt: The Mothers of Invention, "Any Way the Wind Blows"] The second song, a "Satisfaction" knock-off called "Hungry Freaks Daddy", was also fine. But it was when the group performed their third song of the session, "Who Are The Brain Police?", that Tom Wilson realised that he didn't have a standard band on his hands: [Excerpt: The Mothers of Invention, "Who Are the Brain Police?"] Luckily for everyone concerned, Tom Wilson was probably the single best producer in America to have discovered the Mothers. While he was at the time primarily known for his folk-rock productions, he had built his early career on Cecil Taylor and Sun Ra records, some of the freakiest jazz of the fifties and early sixties. He knew what needed to be done -- he needed a bigger budget. Far from being annoyed that he didn't have the white blues band he wanted, Wilson actively encouraged the group to go much, much further. He brought in Wrecking Crew members to augment the band (though one of them. Mac Rebennack, found the music so irritating he pretended he needed to go to the toilet, walked out, and never came back). He got orchestral musicians to play Zappa's scores, and allowed the group to rent hundreds of dollars of percussion instruments for the side-long track "Return of the Son of Monster Magnet", which features many Hollywood scenesters of the time, including Van Dyke Parks, Kim Fowley, future Manson family member Bobby Beausoleil, record executive David Anderle, songwriter P.F. Sloan, and cartoonist Terry Gilliam, all recording percussion parts and vocal noises: [Excerpt: The Mothers of Invention, "Return of the Son of Monster Magnet"] Such was Wilson's belief in the group that Freak Out! became only the second rock double album ever released -- exactly a week after the first, Blonde on Blonde, by Wilson's former associate Bob Dylan. The inner sleeve included a huge list of people who had influenced the record in one way or another, including people Zappa knew like Don Cerveris, Don Vliet, Paul Buff, Bob Keane, Nik Venet, and Art Laboe,  musicians who had influenced the group like Don & Dewey, Johnny Otis, Otis' sax players Preston Love and Big Jay McNeely, Eric Dolphy, Edgard Varese, Richard Berry, Johnny Guitar Watson, and Ravi Shankar, eccentric performers like Tiny Tim, DJs like Hunter Hancock and Huggy Boy, science fiction writers like Cordwainer Smith and Robert Sheckley, and scenesters like David Crosby, Vito, and Franzoni. The list of 179 people would provide a sort of guide for many listeners, who would seek out those names and find their ways into the realms of non-mainstream music, writing, and art over the next few decades. Zappa would always remain grateful to Wilson for taking his side in the record's production, saying "Wilson was sticking his neck out. He laid his job on the line by producing the album. MGM felt that they had spent too much money on the album". The one thing Wilson couldn't do, though, was persuade the label that the group's name could stay as it was. "The Mothers" was a euphemism, for a word I can't say if I want this podcast to keep its clean rating, a word that is often replaced in TV clean edits of films with "melon farmers", and MGM were convinced that the radio would never play any music by a band with that name -- not realising that that wouldn't be the reason this music wouldn't get played on the radio. The group needed to change their name. And so, out of necessity, they became the Mothers of Invention.

Your two ITN agents, Ray Hunt and Kevin 'Moscow Mush' Milverton investigate the unexplained phenomenon of Southampton finding ever more mysterious ways of throwing away leads, this time against the Foxes and ten-man Brighton. Apology is policy for Ralph Hasenhüttl after paranormal activity from Alex McCarthy leaves Saints without a first team goalkeeper. There's more conspiracy and intrigue as they look at the secretive machinations of a takeover from the syndicate in the ITN News, as well as the Player and Goal of the Month for November. Tim joins us as unassigned detail as we look to fight the future against Arsenal next weekend. We still want to believe that three points are out there somewhere. Only a true believer would stick around for the extra time segment where we find the truth about predictions, Fantasy Premier League and Super 6. Support for In That Number is brought to you by MANSCAPED™ - the best in men's below-the-waist grooming. MANSCAPED™ have just launched The Lawn Mower® 4.0 trimmer in Europe! Join over 4 million men worldwide who trust MANSCAPED™ and Get 20% off and free worldwide shipping with the code ITN20 at manscaped.com Don't forget to join our Fantasy Football, Super 6 and predictor leagues:

SUBSCRIBE TO CFC+ HERE: https://anchor.fm/cowhorsefullcontact/subscribe Clayton Edsall, an NRCHA Million Dollar Rider and NRCHA World's Greatest Horseman, is interviewed by Chris Dawson and Russell Dilday. Clayton Edsall's horsemanship and natural talent are a product of his upbringing. Clayton is not only a talented horseman, he is the true definition of a cowboy. He was raised in Montana and grew up on his family's cattle ranch. Ranch life demanded the efforts of the whole family, which Clayton is appreciative of. He grew up managing a variety of tasks such as branding, doctoring, roping, and farming; along with riding and training horses. Clayton's passion for horse training began at a young age, and at 17 he decided to leave the ranch to further his knowledge of horse training. He studied and worked with some of the best horsemen around such as Joe Wolter, Brian Neubert, Tink Elordi, Ray Hunt, and Tom Dorrance. In 2005 Clayton entered his first Snaffle Bit Futurity and finished as a finalist. For the past 11 years, he has been successfully competing, training, and conducting clinics. Clayton makes well-rounded performance horses that are good outside of the arena gathering cows, as well as performing in the show pen. Clayton humbly believes that his success is dependent on a lot of hard work and resiliency. In 2013, Chelsea Barney joined his team and now oversees the barn management and overall horse care. She has a wide variety of horse experience and knowledge. Chelsea grew up riding and competing at her mother's hunter/jumper show barn, and after graduating from Cal Poly San Luis Obispo, she moved to Monterey and managed the Equestrian Center at the beautiful Santa Lucia Preserve in Carmel Valley, California. Chelsea's background and equine husbandry knowledge are an important asset to Clayton's training program. Clayton and Chelsea were married in 2018. They have two children together, Weston, and Rylee, who already seem to have a natural passion and love for horses as well. Triple Crown Feed http://www.triplecrownfeed.com/ (800) 451-9916 info@triplecrownfeed.com https://www.facebook.com/TripleCrownFeed --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/cowhorsefullcontact/message

It was great to talk to John about how he got into horses and his time with Ray Hunt and Tom Dorrance. John became a close friend of Toms and works to keep his legacy alive. You can find out more about John and buy Tom and Ray's books as well as other items on his website. www.johnsaintryan.com

This is one of the most popular episodes from the archives. Listen in as the late Marty Marten co-hosts the Horseman's Corner with Howard Hale and visits with long time friend Amy LeSatz. This interview is from 2008. Marty passed away at the age of 70 on Christmas Day, 2018.Marty's ObituaryMarty Marten, 70Dec. 29, 1947 – Dec. 25, 2018Longmont, Colo.Marty P. Marten, 70, passed away on Dec. 25, 2018, in Augusta, Kan. He was born on Dec. 29, 1947, in Cedar Vale, Kan., to Wilbur and Clara (Harget) Marten. Marty loved and lived the cowboy life. Growing up, Marty worked summers in the High Sierras and worked on cattle ranches in the Flint Hills and the Osage Hills. Marty rode horseback in much of Colorado's back country. Marty attended Kansas State University before transferring to Colorado State University and making Colorado his home.Marty was an author, trainer, teacher and mentor. A student of Tom Dorrance, Ray Hunt and Buck Brannaman, Marty trained countless horses and riders. Through his hugely popular books, clinics, demonstrations, speaking engagements and successful trailer loadings, he made the world of practical horsemanship available to many who would not otherwise have had the chance to experience it. His contributions of expertise, time, experience and patience have changed the lives of horses, horsemen and horsewomen throughout the West.Marty authored two books, PROBLEM-SOLVING – Preventing and Solving Common Horse Problems, Volume 1 and Volume 2, published by Western Horseman Magazine. Marty also authored numerous articles.Marty devoted his life to helping people and horses get to a better place. Marty made a huge impact on the lives of so many. Marty was a true friend and an inspiration to all.Marty battled multiple health issues for the last 15 years of his life, but he never lost hope because of his deep and abiding faith. His life was a constant witness to his love of God. He was a member of St. Stephen's Episcopal Church in Longmont, Colo.He was preceded in death by his parents, Wilbur and Clara Marten and his sister, Marilyn Skaer. Marty's father was one of 12 children and the Marten family history is long and full.Marty is survived by his nephews, Brady (Krissy) Skaer, Justin (Joli) Skaer of Kansas and Marty (Julie) Skaer of Oklahoma and his 10 grand-nieces and grand-nephews, Colton, Libbi, Anna, Heidi, Joe, Kora, Chisum, Gracie, Sam and Jeremiah.Funeral services were held on Dec. 29, 2018, in Augusta, Kan. A Memorial Gathering and Service to honor Marty will take place on Feb. 17, 2019, at the Colorado Therapeutic Riding Center. Memorial donations may be made to CTRC, 11968 Mineral Rd., Longmont, CO 80504.

I spoke with Dina Schultz, Kevan Gareki, Kerri Lake and Josh Nichol on May 8, 2021 and we all had one thing in common. None of us was wearing a watch. We went on from there about time, connection, trauma's influence on intuition and more.BiosDina SchultzMy path, in whatever twisty-turns traveled, there was a horse.  Today, in terms of equines, I live with my two OTTB geldings. One is an incredibly empathic sensitive younger soul and reminds me of myself before I understood and accepted my empathic-intuitiveness. My horse before these two, lived to 34 and wow - he was an old old wise solid soul, older than the oaks. Goodness he kept me alive the 25 years we shared lives. During that time, I was in college. Yes, for 25-plus years! I love learning. I am one of those who started college at 17, right out of High School and just kept going. I started out as a professional photographer while making my way through a BA, BSN, MSN, and working towards my Doctorate in Clinical Psychology with a double major in PreMed studies and I now feel that I am exactly where I need to be in medicine, as a Nurse Practitioner working in Neurosurgery and if you know about medicine, you know there is endless learning. I am my happiest-thriving-glowing self when I am learningKevan GarekiRaised on a small ranch in Alberta, Kevan's life with horses began before school age. His surrogate grandfather originally trained horses for the cavalry, and was friends with men like Ray Hunt & the Dorrance brothers. Kevan has carried his grandfather's passion ever since; and due in part to returning to his native heritage, he has expanded his understanding to include not only communication, but the subtle exchanges of energy between all life.From over 45 years in commercial transport, he earned a solid reputation as a horseman, owning & managing an international fleet. Kevan is also an accomplished author, photographer, teacher, and as he puts it, “Full time student of life”. https:/www.facebook.com/wrecklesshorseKerri LakeKerri Lake is the author of Listen Like A Horse and Spiritually Gifted. Since 2014 she has traveled intentionally to share perspectives, tools and guidance for people to open their hearts and include themselves in the harmony of life. You can read more about her and her work at www.kerrilake.com. Find her books on amazon or her website. Her podcast, Animals Of A New Earth, can be found on iTunes or Kerri's YouTube channel. Josh NicholJosh lives in Athabasca, Alberta, Canada. As a family-focused individual, he takes great pride in spending as much time with those in his life as possible, and helping his children learn the valuable lessons passed on to him by his mentors.Even from his younger years, it was readily apparent to those around him that Josh Nichol had a remarkable gift when it came to interacting with horses. Fortunate enough to have parents that noticed his affinity for the equine early on, much of Josh's life has been spent developing his understanding and knowledge of horsemanship. Under the guidance of world-class mentors, Josh quickly learned his life's calling: continually seeking and developing better methods of creating long-lasting relationships with one of God's most fascinating and beautiful creatures. Driven by a passion for connecting with, and understanding the needs of horses, Josh has created a transformative approach to horsemanship: Relational Horsemanship.www.joshnichol.com   www.facebook.com/ahorsemanspursuitJosh Nichol A Horseman's Pursuit - YouTube

Charley Snell is a horseman to his core. He's also one of the kindest men I've ever met. In this conversation you'll get to hear a bit about Charley's life as a cowboy, and how meeting a man named Ray Hunt changed everything for him. We explore the challenges of learning, as well as the importance of positivity in horsemanship. Learn more about Charley on his website https://charleysnellhorsemanship.com/ Charley's Virtual Clinic Learn more about our virtual clinic that starts September 18, 2021 here https://shine-a-light.mykajabi.com/letting-go-of-trouble Muddy Creek Rain Gear home of my favorite rain gear for equestrians www.muddycreek.net Stay Updated If you'd like to stay updated on future podcasts, I'd love for you to join my mailing list. I send out a weekly email with interviews and success tips designed to inspire you and give you a boost of motivation along your journey. You can sign up for the mailing list here http://eepurl.com/bDUTZX If you'd like to watch this podcast- it's available on youtube here https://youtu.be/cYHXU4lP3AM

I spoke to Kevan on Mar 1, 2021. We spoke briefly about our connection to British Columbia and then so many more things amazed me as we spoke I had to stop and hit record. During our time together on the podcast I learned more about this incredible person who just does what is right for horses and those around him. It was so interesting to learn more about this photographer and life long horse person. I hope you enjoy as much as I did. BioRaised on a small ranch in Alberta, Kevan’s life with horses began before school age. His surrogate grandfather originally trained horses for the cavalry, and was friends with men like Ray Hunt & the Dorrance brothers. Kevan has carried his grandfather’s passion ever since; and due in part to returning to his native heritage, he has expanded his understanding to include not only communication, but the subtle exchanges of energy between all life.From over 45 years in commercial transport, he earned a solid reputation as a horseman, owning & managing an international fleet. Kevan is also an accomplished author, photographer, teacher, and as he puts it, “Full time student of life”.

Ben is one of the most well spoken and articulate horsemen I've had the pleasure to get to talk with. He has an incredibly ability to break down seemingly complex situations, topics or even philosophies and simplify them so both horse and human can grasp the concept and learn from it. You will feel his incredible peaceful, present energy throughout this conversation as we dive into his journey of becoming an international clinician, his approaches to handling spooky & anxious horses, the legacy he is working to leave behind in his family and in this industry as well as much more.  Be sure to give Ben & Natalie a follow on social to keep up with all their happenings!  *****And to hear more amazing guests on the Heart of Horsemanship Podcast leave that 5 Star Rating & Review so more folks can find these incredible conversations! (Just scroll down)***** True West Horsemanship: Facebook & Instagram & YouTube About Ben & True West Horsemanship: Ben grew up on the Western Slope of Colorado, riding horses and working cattle. After finishing school, he spent much of his time doing day work for different ranches in the area, learning from the experience of the ranchers. He also spent a year working as assistant trainer at a Quarter Horse breeder in Colorado, learning the basics of colt starting and true horsemanship. Much of the next six years was spent in the colt starting & horse training business and his knowledge and experience continued to expand. During this time Ben worked on a 300,000 acre cattle & horse ranch in Wyoming, where he was also involved in conducting horsemanship clinics and demonstrations. Adding to a lifetime of practical equine experience, he is influenced by the methods of such horsemen as Tom & Bill Dorrance, Ray Hunt, and Buck Brannaman and has ridden with Richard Caldwell, Jeff Sanders, Martin Black and Dave Weaver. In 2011, Ben and his wife Natalie moved to her native country of New Zealand and took the opportunity to build a horse training and clinic business.  Since then, Ben has been privileged to be a returning Clinician at NZ’s national horse expo seven different years. In 2014 Ben was invited to participate in New Zealand’s first Kaimanawa Stallion Challenge – where trainers were randomly given a Kaimanawa Stallion straight from the wild and competed in 2 stages of competition. Ben has appeared in and written for a number of Equine Magazines, both in New Zealand and internationally, as well as appearing in an episode of Masterclass on Country TV. He also has an Online Video Library that contains a wide range of instructional videos for advancing students’ skills and horsemanship regardless of discipline or breed. About the Heart of Horsemanship: Hey Folks and welcome to the Heart of Horsemanship Podcast where we will answer ALL of these questions and many more! Every week, your host Colton Woods brings you horsemanship hacks, business tips, equestrian motivation, personal and inspirational stories and even guests on the show that will help YOU take your horsemanship, relationships, careers and self to the entire NEXT LEVEL! Colton takes it the extra mile as he shares with you the practical and achievable steps he has taken to go from a childhood nonexistent with horses to traveling the world and teaching clinics, building the highly sought after horse and human development program at Colton Woods Horsemanship and not only making a living in the horse industry but loving the time he and his horses spend together. Horsemanship is not just a way to train a horse but it is everything we do with our horses and in our lives. That is right, this podcast is dedicated to helping fellow horse people learn more about their horses and themselves. Here on the Heart of Horsemanship Podcast we keep it fun, we keep it informative, we keep it real and we keep it positive. Thanks for tuning into the Heart of Horsemanship Podcast, now lets dive in. For those serious about furthering their horsemanship and investing in their own personal happiness, health & growth: Learn more here about the Colton Woods Horsemanship Mentorship. Submit your requests to: office.coltonwoodshorsemanship@gmail.com Free Online Video Library by Colton Woods Horsemanship: www.coltonwoodshorsemanship.com/video-library Facebook: www.facebook.com/coltonwoodshorsemanship Instagram: www.instagram.com/coltonwoodshorsemanship AC: Joseph McDade

„Bernd Hackl ist einer der wenigen Horseman in Deutschland, die sich voll und ganz der Horsemanship verschrieben haben – am Boden und im Sattel. Seine Fähigkeiten mit Jung- oder sogenannten Problempferden umzugehen, verfeinerte der Süddeutsche in einigen USA-Aufenthalten bei Roy Sharpe, Steve Holloway und Bill Horn. Beeinflusst von Horseman wie Buck Brannaman oder Ray Hunt fand Hackl bald seinen eigenen Weg.“ #followthefeel www.berndhackl.de

Patrick King is a great merger of two vastly different realms of horses, while studying under Ray Hunt early in his career he became fascinated with the mechanics of classical dressage, leading him to become a professional clinician and trainer who travels more than anyone I know of. He is also charismatic and empathetic, he understands the celestial bond between horse and rider, but also knows how to explain that to people in simple, easy to understand terms. Patrick has an illuminating discussion about his journey to becoming one of the most prolific travelling clinicians that I know of and our conversations are always as intellectual as they are lighthearted and fun.

To me, Brooke Tatrow epitomizes the concept of integrity and balance in horsemanship. She has studied with classical and foundation horsemanship masters for over twenty years. Her teachers have included Buck Brannaman, Ray Hunt and Maryal Barnett. Brooke brings a thoughtful, compassionate and philosophical approach to every horse (and rider) she works with. Brooke is inspiring to learn from — and also is just super fun to talk horses with. Please check out Brooke’s work on Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/mindfulhorsemanshipbt and her youtube channel at: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCeRkQibAYL6Wo6jITrk_xvg/videos At Horse Wise, I teach people tools so that they can learn how to coach themselves and their horses to progress together as a team. It’s a fun process that shows you how build a good partnership with your horse (in a practical, straightforward way). If you’d like more information on mindset practices, audio coaching or general Horse Services, please visit our website for more information: http://horsewisecoach.com/ And if you’d like to keep up with our news and updates, please join our email list or follow us on social media: https://www.facebook.com/HorseWiseCoach/ https://www.instagram.com/horse_wise/

I always enjoy talking with horseman and Bens story is one of a kind. Ben Longwell owns and operates True West Horsemanship, based most of the year in New Zealand. Ben grew up on the Western Slope of Colorado, riding horses and working cattle. After finishing school, he spent much of his time doing day work for different ranches in the area, learning from the experience of the ranchers. He also spent a year working as assistant trainer at a Quarter Horse breeder in Colorado, learning the basics of colt starting and true horsemanship. Much of the next six years was spent in the colt starting & horse training business and his knowledge and experience continued to expand. During this time Ben worked on a 300,000 acre cattle & horse ranch in Wyoming, where he was also involved in conducting horsemanship clinics and demonstrations. Adding to a lifetime of practical equine experience, he is influenced by the methods of such horsemen as Tom & Bill Dorrance, Ray Hunt, and Buck Brannaman and has ridden with Richard Caldwell, Jeff Sanders, Martin Black and Dave Weaver. In 2011, Ben and his wife Natalie moved to her native country of New Zealand and took the opportunity to build a horse training and clinic business.  Since then, Ben has been privileged to be a returning Clinician at NZ’s national horse expo seven different years. In 2014 Ben was invited to participate in New Zealand’s first Kaimanawa Stallion Challenge – where trainers were randomly given a Kaimanawa Stallion straight from the wild and competed in 2 stages of competition. Ben has appeared in and written for a number of Equine Magazines, both in New Zealand and internationally, as well as appearing in an episode of Masterclass on Country TV. He also has an Online Video Library that contains a wide range of instructional videos for advancing students’ skills and horsemanship regardless of discipline or breed. Resources: @true_west_horsemanship http://truewesthorsemanship.com/ (truewesthorsemanship.com) TikTok: https://www.instagram.com/truewesthorsemanship/ (@truewesthorsemanship) Photo Credit: Debby Thomas Show Sponsors: @tommyhawksaxehouse www.tommyhawks.net @thecowlot www.thecowlot.com Show Music: “The Ropin Pen” By: Trent Willmon https://trentwillmon.com/ (https://trentwillmon.com/) “Cowboy” By: Kolt Barber https://www.koltbarber.com/ (https://www.koltbarber.com/) MC Podcast Production & Editing: Matt Kirschner https://www.instagram.com/mattjkirschner/ (https://www.instagram.com/mattjkirschner/)

In this episode, we'll be exploring the life of my wife, Kelly's, Uncle Ray. You will hear stories of how Ray coached many young men from Brooklyn, NY in canoeing and kayaking. Ray not only coached these young men, but also took them on memorable wilderness trips to remote areas of Canada; trips they would remember for the rest of their lives. Three of these men join us to share their experiences…50 years later!

If you’d like to support the podcast and all the work that I do then you can! Just head on over to patreon.com/comealongfortheridepodcast and sign up. From as little as a cup of coffee a month, you can help me keep this podcast going. There are many tiers that you can choose from and if everyone who listens gave only $5 per month, it would make a massive positive difference to me.There is a tier in there for a small business subscription just like the one Peter Papp took up from Peter and the Herd, this is the one where your business gets a mention each week on the podcast. Peter works with equine behaviour and trauma recovery. Equine communication. Human and horse relationship building. Peter has had communication with my mare Gypsy, who is the mare with me in the podcast picture and he was spot on about everything so I can highly recommend his work personally. Click here to connect with Peter and the Herd.In this episode I speak with Mary Corning who is an author and life consultant for the horse world and beyond.She has written a book called Perfect Practice, A philosophy for living an authentic and transparent life.Mary is a Woman after my own heart we have so much in common in the way we see the world and live our lives.I loved every minute of this conversation and I know you will as well. What a rich and blessed life she has lived in being guided by both Ray Hunt and Tom Dorrance.I’m so glad she has written her book and is able to share her wisdom with us all.To connect with Mary and purchase her book please click on the links belowWebsite url ishttps://marycorning.com/Facebook page is.https://www.facebook.com/MarySCorningLifeCoach/Instagram https://www.instagram.com/maryscorning/The book is available on Amazonhttps://marycorning.com/books/as well as most online bookstores - it is also searchable and available at walk in stores worldwide.Mary also offers signed special edition copies through her website. Here is the link to that.https://marycorning.com/books/© Tracy Malone

Jimmy Barrett and Shara Fryer take you through the stories that matter on the morning of 08/11/2020.President Trump is still trying to decide on a venue to accept the nomination for president, and is considering doing it at the White House, and former VP Joe Biden says he will not go to Milwaukee to accept his nomination this month. In a year when candidates are unable or unwilling to get out and campaign on the trail, and more Americans find themselves in front of the TV and computers, campaign ads may be more influential than ever. We look at what ads are out, how much money candidates and their counter parts are spending and where they are focusing their money. Calling in is Adam Goodman, a media strategist who has advised Rudy Giuliani, John McCain and Jeb Bush. We talk to Ray Hunt from the Houston Police Officers Union about how many mask fines they've given out. With school reopening, Gov. Greg Abbott sets off another debate over whether local or state officials are in control. Abbott’s decision to curb the role of local health authorities in school reopening decisions has added to the ongoing conflict between him and local governments during the pandemic, with mayors and judges voicing frustration over having their hands tied by the state’s response. We talk with Harrold ISD Superintendent David Thweatt about the ongoing issue.

- Waiting on a Covid brownout.- Ray Hunt and the HPD Union head understand who's in charge of masks.- The insanity of police defunding and how the anarchists were handled in Austin.-. Cathie Adams of the Texas Eagle Forum on getting conservatives to fight back.

Chris Dawson and Russell Dilday interview NRCHA Professional Horseman, Clay Volmer.  He claimed the 2018 Snaffle Bit Futurity Intermediate Open Champion riding SDP Hy Rey Bound.  Volmer specializes in both reined cow horses & cutting and competes professionally at major NRCHA & NCHA events nationally year-round.  Clay was also the 2013 AQHA Cutting World Champion. Clay’s early passion was bareback horses; he won the South Dakota State Highschool Finals in Bareback Riding in 1999 and continued his rough stock career in college at National American University in Rapid City, SD. While still in college, Clay and his uncle started coordinating horsemanship clinics all over the country in concert with several well-known clinicians, including Buck Brannaman, Ray Hunt, and Curt Pate.  Clay still credits these clinicians with teaching him the exceptional colt-starting & general horsemanship skills that he uses so effectively in his training methods today. This interview was recorded in April of 2020. 

“Horse trainers train horses. Horsemen work on themselves.” -Tom Dorrance Linda’s work speaks to the foundation and refinement of skills that allows ANY horse, regardless of discipline, to be a more willing and prepared partner. For her, the art of horsemanship is a personal journey to discover the grace, harmony and partnership that can exist between horse and rider. Linda has been teaching and training professionally since 1980. She has helped horses and riders in nearly every discipline — from stock horse to dressage to cutting horse to eventing. Linda has worked with many “Masters” of the art of horsemanship, including Buck Brannaman, Tom Curtin and Ray Hunt. In 2008, she attended the first of many symposiums taught by Dr. Gerd Heuschmann, world renowned expert of equine biomechanics and the author of Tug of Way - Classical versus “Modern” Dressage. In addition, Linda has received certification through the Western Dressage Association of America (WDAA) Train the Trainers Program. For more information on Linda’s top notch clinics and training options, please visit her website at www.lindahoover.com or her FB page page at https://www.facebook.com/LindaHooverRefinedHorsemanship/ At Horse Wise, I teach people tools so that they can learn how to coach themselves and their horses to progress together as a team. It’s a fun process that shows you how build a good partnership with your horse (in a practical, straightforward way). If you’d like more information on mindset practices, audio coaching or general Horse Services, please visit our website for more information: http://horsewisecoach.com/ And if you’d like to keep up with our news and updates, please join our email list or follow us on social media: https://www.facebook.com/HorseWiseCoach/ https://www.instagram.com/horse_wise/1

“Horse trainers train horses. Horsemen work on themselves.” -Tom Dorrance Linda’s work speaks to the foundation and refinement of skills that allows ANY horse, regardless of discipline, to be a more willing and prepared partner. For her, the art of horsemanship is a personal journey to discover the grace, harmony and partnership that can exist between horse and rider. Linda has been teaching and training professionally since 1980. She has helped horses and riders in nearly every discipline — from stock horse to dressage to cutting horse to eventing. Linda has worked with many “Masters” of the art of horsemanship, including Buck Brannaman, Tom Curtin and Ray Hunt. In 2008, she attended the first of many symposiums taught by Dr. Gerd Heuschmann, world renowned expert of equine biomechanics and the author of Tug of Way - Classical versus “Modern” Dressage. In addition, Linda has received certification through the Western Dressage Association of America (WDAA) Train the Trainers Program. For more information on Linda’s top notch clinics and training options, please visit her website at www.lindahoover.com or her FB page page at https://www.facebook.com/LindaHooverRefinedHorsemanship/ At Horse Wise, I teach people tools so that they can learn how to coach themselves and their horses to progress together as a team. It’s a fun process that shows you how build a good partnership with your horse (in a practical, straightforward way). If you’d like more information on mindset practices, audio coaching or general Horse Services, please visit our website for more information: http://horsewisecoach.com/ And if you’d like to keep up with our news and updates, please join our email list or follow us on social media: https://www.facebook.com/HorseWiseCoach/ https://www.instagram.com/horse_wise/

Author of the classic book Absolutely Positively Gundog Training, Robert Milner talks philosophy and practical applications of his minimalist-positive-science based approach to training.Milner founded Wildrose Kennels, "retired," then founded www.duckhillkennels.com, where he trains British Labradors in ways you may not know about yet or even agree with! A student of "horse whisperer" Ray Hunt, Milner talks about the right number of training days per week and times per day to get maximum performance from your dog. He outlines why "punishment" or "correction" are superfluous if you read your dog well and reward the expected behavior, and what types of reward work.Creating neural pathways that create "right" behaviors, from the very start, ignoring misbehavior, and how B.F. Skinner's operant conditioning research can be applied to dogs ... all are part of a wide-ranging discussion that only scratches the surface.Milner gives us mini-lessons in recall, retrieve, and steadiness to wing-shot-fall, suggests the one most important command, and offers solutions to the problems his clients' dogs have most often.Milner was a pioneer in importing British-style Labradors to the U.S., and he'll also outline how those dogs differ from American-style retrievers, and how English field trials work.Plus, my own tip on a slightly-different way to look at public land access and information, a hard-earned lesson in yard training, gear discounts and a chance to win a Pointer shotgun. All brought to you by these sponsors - check out their deals:Cabela's, Sage & Braker Mercantile, Electronic Shooters Protection, Dogtra, Dr. Tim's performance dog food; FindBirdHuntingSpots.com and Gunner Kennels.Take advantage of great deals from many of our sponsors: 10% off and free shipping on any purchase over $200 at Dogtra with the code SLUN10 (plus sale prices on many collar-transmitter bundles); win a Pointer shotgun at FindBirdHuntingSpots.com; 30% off your first order from Dr. Tim's with the code UPLANDNATION; and financing on your Gunner Kennel.

In today's episode, we we talk to acclaimed horseman, clinician and author, Martin Black of Bruneau, Idaho. He is famous for his many educational books and DVDS on Vaquero-style horsemanship. This includes the Western Horseman Book, Cow-Horse Confidence. Recently, he also co-authored a book with Dr. Steve Peters, Evidence-Based Horsemanship. He has worked on ranches in Idaho, Nevada and California. He has worked with some of the top horsemen and bridlemen, Paul Black, Charlie and Bill Van Norman, Ray Hunt, Gene Lewis, Melvin Jones, Tom Dorrance, and Tom Marvel. In this episode, he talks about the importance of horsemanship in all aspects of interacting with horses; including trimming and shoeing. He shares his philosophies in communicating with horses to get the most out of the horse/horseman relationship. Martin has helped everyone from recreational riders to top horse-trainers in cutting, reining and racing, cowboys, cow-horse competitors, ropers, show-jumpers, and eventers. You can find out more about Martin Black and purchase his educational materials at MartinBlack.net.   If you would like to contact us with questions relating to your business, specific cases, general horse hoof care questions, or suggestions for future podcasts, please email us at farrierfocuspodcast@gmail.com. We might even feature your email in a future episode!

In 1981 we attended a Ray Hunt clinic in Wheatland, Wyoming. Seeing what Ray offered his horses and how smoothly his horses operated, sparked a hunger in us to search for the pieces missing in our own horsemanship. - Amy and Steve LeSatz

In this episode I chat to Ray Hunt's grandson Jaton Lord, who was in Australia for the Legacy of Legends and his own clinic in Tamworth. I had so much fun in this interview and loved hearing about Jaton's work with kids. Good horsemanship should start from the moment we start interacting with horses. If you want to find out more about Jaton's horsemanship or clinic schedule, check out his links below: Facebook : Jaton Lord Performance Horses Website: jatonlord.com  

In this second part of the Tamworth Trilogy, I got to sit down with the amazing woman, Carolyn Hunt, who shared a life with Ray Hunt. Ray was one of the legends of horsemanship and it was amazing to get a slight glimpse into his life with his supportive and passionate wife. Ray Hunt Website: rayhunt.com Ray Hunt Facebook Page: Ray Hunt, Horseman Healthy Horse + Happy Hound Facebook Page The Healthy Horse + Happy Hound Co.

We were lucky enough to have a great phone call with Wade Black, winner of the Wild Card competition at Road To The Horse 2019. Wade is an accomplished horseman and teacher, who has spent his career training prospects to be successful on the ranch and in the show pen. He teaches full-time at the TVCC Equine Program, passing on his knowledge, and the horsemanship philosophies of his father Martin Black and grandfather Ray Hunt. Wade talks to us about how his faith guides him to find success with his horses and his students. You can learn more about Wade and his methodologies on his website Road To The Horse 2020 (https://roadtothehorse.com/) . We'll be rooting for you Wade!

I didn’t learn to ride until I was an adult. Predictably, I wasn’t exactly the smoothest rider at first. In fact, I was a downright nerd at the barn. If there was a wrong fashion choice to make, I made it. Rubber riding boots. Giant bright sweaters. Oversized helmets that made me look like an uncoordinated motorcycle cop. You name the worst equestrian fashion faux pas — and I embodied it. I longed to be rugged, tough and world wise, like the pro horse trainers I knew. But over time, I came to realize that my nerdy perspective was actually a positive thing. It gave me a fresh and completely non-cynical approach to the horses. My “beginner’s mind” was open to many possibilities that experts would never consider. Because of that, I became aware of small things in the horses’ behavior and expressions that seemed significant to me (and to the horses). I was more receptive to learning — and the horses were happy to teach me because of that. I owe this insight to an early experience at a Ray Hunt clinic. It was the first clinic I had ever ridden in. Blissfully clueless, I went into the colt starting class with a polo saddle, Gap jeans and a barely broke 3 yo TB straight from the track. A wiser, less nerdy person would have never ridden in that clinic. But I learned so much from Ray. And it’s because of that clinic that I became a dedicated (and perpetually nerdy) student of horsemanship. At Horse Wise, I teach people tools so that they can learn how to coach themselves and their horses to progress together as a team. It’s a fun process that shows you how build a good partnership with your horse (in a practical, straightforward way). If you’d like more information on mindset practices, audio coaching or general Horse Services, please visit our website for more information: http://horsewisecoach.com/ And if you’d like to keep up with our news and updates, please join our email list or follow us on social media: https://www.facebook.com/HorseWiseCoach/ https://www.instagram.com/horse_wise/ )

The most important principles in life are often simple. They seem self-obvious and straightforward to understand. But putting them into practice isn’t always so easy. Especially when the principle involves becoming aware of how you need to change. One of the most helpful horsemanship sayings to me is the seemingly simple Ray Hunt quote: “Believe in your horse, so your horse can believe in you.” But there are many layers of wisdom beneath that short sentence. In this episode, I share some of my own experiences with believing in my horse — and how those led to me learning how to believe in myself. True to form, the podcast includes entertaining analogies (such as how tying your child to a dining room table is like you not allowing your horse to make a mistake) — none of which are suitable for actual child supervision or parenting techniques. At Horse Wise, I teach people tools so that they can learn how to coach themselves and their horses to progress together as a team. It’s a fun process that shows you how build a good partnership with your horse (in a practical, straightforward way). If you’d like more information on mindset practices, audio coaching (with customized references to things like the muddy puppies or fly fishing analogies) or just general Horse Services, please visit our website for more information: http://horsewisecoach.com/ And if you’d like to keep up with our news and updates, please join our email list or follow us on social media: https://www.facebook.com/HorseWiseCoach/ https://www.instagram.com/horse_wise/ )

This episode of The Ride is brought to you by Horse&Rider OnDemand! Episode six of The Ride brings you a profile on natural horsemanship trainer Leslie Desmond. Leslie worked with Western professionals like Bill Dorrance, Tom Dorrance, Ray Hunt, and Buck Brannaman. If you're a natural horsemanship guru, you'll want to listen! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Every time we think we can make a definitive statement about how the human brain works, science makes advances, and in many cases, proves those beliefs to be wrong. The same is true of horses’ brains, which directly impacts how they learn, how they experience the world, and how we can more effectively work with them and provide them with better lives.   Elise’s guest today, neuroscientist, author, and horseman, Dr. Stephen Peters, was frustrated by the many often opposing views about training and working with his own horses. Dr. Peters decided to apply his knowledge of the human brain to developing science-based horsemanship to understand how a horse’s brain and its behavior are related and how they, in turn, affect learning. Dr. Peters partnered with trainer and fifth-generation rancher, Martin Black, whose early years of training horses were guided by working for legendary horsemen Tom Dorrance and Ray Hunt. Together, they wrote the book, Evidence-Based Horsemanship, to share their intriguing findings.   In this episode, Dr. Peters shares his incredible insights on how the equine brain thinks and how we can apply this knowledge to work more effectively with our own horses. He also gives his impression of how he believes horses experience the world and how we can best interact with our horses to accommodate this.   Topics of Discussion: [:25] About today’s guest, Dr. Stephen Peters. [1:39] What can the equine brain think? How does it think? And how can we apply this knowledge to working more effectively with our own horses? [6:22] What is Dr. Peters’ impression of how horses experience the world? And in particular, with regards to our interactions with them and creating that calm environment that is most beneficial to learning. [27:38] When Dr. Peters is working with young horses, what is the middle ground between exposing them to new experiences and completely “bubble-wrapping” them? [35:57] Has Dr. Peters been surprised by any of his findings as both a neuroscientist and a horseman? [41:07] It’s been proven that horses are good for humans, but are humans good for horses? [50:13] Dr. Peters and Elise discuss the ongoing evolution of horsemanship in understanding what is actually most beneficial for the horse. [52:20] About next week’s episode of Because of Horses. [53:37] Where to learn more about Dr. Peters and find his book online.   Know Someone Inspirational, Whose Life Has Been Forever Changed Because of Horses? Because of Horseswould love to get to share their story! To recommend someone please send an email to elise@becauseofhorses.com.   Mentioned in this Episode: The Hampton Classic Evidence-Based Horsemanship, by Dr. Stephen Peters and Martin Black EquestFile(Use coupon code: BOH10 to receive a 10% discount for two months off your subscription) GGTFooting.com/BOHP Horse Head: Brain Science & Other Insights, by Maddy Butcher and Dr. Stephen Peters (Contributor)   Like what you hear?Because of Horseswould love to hear your feedback! Please email elise@becauseofhorses.comto send Because of Horsesyour thoughts.   To Support the Podcast: Donate on Paypalto help keep Because of Horsesrunning — all amounts are welcome! Subscribe: RSS Feed, iTunes, Google Play, TuneIn, Stitcher, and Player FM

Mary Corning – How to Shift Pain into PurposeAired Monday, 5 August 2019, 12:00 PM EST / 9:00 AM PSTLife teaches us how to live, yet we often run from it, mask it, cloak it, resist it, and deny it. All the while life keeps offering us opportunities for a new perspective. ~Mary CorningThat quote comes from a deeply insightful woman who I’m so lucky to have shared an hour with. You’ll get to hear our conversation TOMORROW!!!Shifting and getting out of the habit of pain… but how?Mary Corning changes lives by defining the transformative power of pain. As a mentor, speaker, life consultant and writer, she clearly and compassionately models this process through her messages and stories. Mary extends her philosophy into her world of horses, where both people and horses benefit from realizing a different way to interpret challenge.I’ve ‘adopted’ Mary’s book – Perfect Practice: A Philosophy for Living an Authentic and Transparent Life, as my personal self-love work book starting Now! August. I’ll share with you along the way some of the shifts and new wisdom I gain from the interesting perspective Mary shares. I’ve already used 1 technique as I observed my kitties but you’ll have to listen to hear the story!A few things we discussed:· How to shift pain into purpose, conflict into confidence, and fear into curiosity · Recognizing the early signals of defensiveness within ourselves and others and making a change · Letting go of the heavy load of obligation and creating inspired dedication insteadMary has navigated her way through addiction and codependency. She has felt rejection and abandonment. She has suffered and pondered the depth of grief and loss. She watched as dementia transformed the mind of a loved one. She has received the shocking news of suicide. You might say her credentials are an advanced education in life. However, pain alone cannot offer wisdom. Mary had to be willing to look deeply into these experiences. She lived through them with a clear and conscious mind, and her heart prevailed. These are the experiences that brought her to the wisdom, but her willingness offered the understanding for applying it to life.Mary’s education in life expanded when she met her teacher Ray Hunt. Ray taught her about horses, and horses in turn taught her about herself. This education required a great investment. She became completely dedicated to finding her purpose. Ray Hunt and the philosophy he taught seemed to fit her curriculum perfectly. That was thirty years ago, and she is still in class. A philosophical approach to horses or to life is not an education that ends with a degree. In fact, it never ends. And that is the beauty of it. Perfect Practice doesn’t mean we reach perfection—it means we never settle for less.Mary lives in the Willamette Valley of Oregon, on twenty acres of land at the foothills of the Coast Range. She is blissfully married to her husband, Magnus, who is her life’s perfect partner. She has a best friend who vitalizes her whole heart with an unwavering friendship. Mary is passionately involved with her horses and dedicated to her work with people. She loves life, and her home includes two wonderful stepsons who have given her the gift of a front-row seat into youthful expression. Her constant companions and confidants are her dogs and cats. When she is not writing, working, or enjoying her home life, her favorite pastime is horse camping in one of western Oregon’s many beautiful forests.Connect with Mary at: https://marycorning.com/

For me, Horse Wise began in 2007. Back then, I was running a racehorse adoption ranch and blogging about my experiences. Whenever I would write about a key lesson that a horse taught me, I would tag the post as “Horse Wise.” From that beginning, Horse Wise has evolved into a coaching and teaching service for people and horses. My history with horses started with learning to ride as an adult (in weekly group riding lessons). A full-time office worker with a normal job, I soon found horses taking over more and more of my life (including a memorable volunteer stint with a mounted Park Police unit). Eventually, I moved from Washington DC to Texas and started the racehorse adoption charity LOPE (http://lopetx.org/ ). The ex-racehorses provided me with an incredible education about horses, horsemanship and life itself. They also brought me memorable teachers, starting with the best of them all — Ray Hunt (http://www.alegacyoflegends.com/the-legacy.html). Thanks to the LOPE horses, I wrote a popular book (Beyond the Homestretch) about my work. To my surprise, I then steadily grew into becoming a teacher/coach for horses and their people. For more information about Horse Wise and the services we offer, please visit: http://horsewisecoach.com/ or https://www.facebook.com/HorseWiseCoach/

A new equine community is announced! Kade Mills and Rod Olsen round out the Trainers Challenge interviews from the Red Deer Mane Event Expo. Diana and Sylvia share stories from the rural safety fair and trail blazing.

In episode SIXTEEN I shared some powerful lessons I learned from from Ray Hunt and Buck Brannaman, who were protoges of horsemanship legends Tom and Bill Dorrance. For even more horsemanship resources, visit BarrelRacingTips.com. Please subscribe, rate & review the show - thanks for listening!

In this episode I speak with AJ Millions from Leading the Way International. AJ does one of my passions, she has an experiential horse facilitated learning centre. AJ works with people of all ages and from many different walks of life. Her experience in life is extraordinary. It began on a large ranch in Canada with her Grandfather, learning how she did NOT want to train horses.You will hear how AJ worked with first Canadian elders in a womens correctional centre where she assisted in an equine program to help rehabilitate women into society without reoffending and entering the cycle of corrections.AJ has worked with so many amazing horse people in her life so far, one of which was Ray Hunt when she was only 18.AJ has also been lucky enough to study with Linda Kohanov who brings such wisdom to any horse assisted therapy work.AJ’s passion is working with at risk youth and you will hear stories of how she facilitates change with her incredible herd, for these kids who do not fit the current education system.AJ also has a passion for making sure her horses are well taken care of in every way. Healing work can have a big impact on horses as well and we speak about the way Aj is able to care for her herd to make sure they do not have any negative responses or setbacks from this work as well.To connect with AJ you can go to her website or Facebook page.Here is a link to the book that she speaks of in the interview, written by Yvonne Johnson, one of the Women in the correctional centre in Canada.

Thursday Feb 22nd Noon CST on Equestrian Legacy Radio Host Gary Holt and Western Horseman's Jennifer Denison welcome the Award Winning The High Country Cowboys to the CAMPFIRE CAFE'. Born and raised in Montana, the three brothers John, Joe and Marty were brought up in the heart of ranch country where the roads are all dirt, and the cows still out number the people! They grew up watching the old B-western films on VHS which instilled in them their love for the west and of course cowboy music. Their lead singer Marty has been awarded as Western Music Associations 'Yodeler of the Year' 3 times and once with the Pro Cowboy Country Artist Association. The PCCAA Also awarded the group as "Music Group of the Year" in 2017. They also received "Best Traditional Album of the Year" with the WMA IN 2017. Their traditional sound and three part western harmony has been compared to the Sons of the Pioneers and Marty Robbins. Ray Hunt is a legendary horseman and one of the fathers of Natural Horsemanship. We're joined on SADDLE UP AMERICA! by his partner and widow Carolyn Hunt and his grandson and noted horseman and clinician Jaton Lord.  We talk about Ray's legend and legacy this week on SADDLE UP AMERICA! Listen at www.equestrianlegacy.net                    

SUMMARY: For our one year anniversary we're releasing a special edition of the podcast... a compilation of some of the most popular clips from the year in an extra long bonus episode. I hope you enjoy! TRANSCRIPTION: Melissa Breau: This is Melissa Breau and you're listening to the Fenzi Dog Sports Podcast brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy, an online school dedicated to providing high-quality instruction for competitive dog sports using only the most current and progressive training methods. Today I'm here with Teri Martin -- for those of you who don't know her, Teri is Denise's right hand woman; she handles setting up the classes for all of you each session, plays tech support, and is the main organizer for camp each year. Teri and I will be doing something a little different this episode… roughly a year ago today, December 23rd, I launched our very first episode, which was an interview with Denise Fenzi. To celebrate our anniversary, today we're going to reshare some of the more memorable moments from the last year. But before we dive into that, Teri is here with me to talk a little about the plans for FDSA Training Camp 2018. Welcome to the podcast Teri! Excited to have you co-hosting this special episode with me.   Teri Martin: Thanks, Melissa. Happy to be here. Melissa Breau: Alright, to start us out, do you want to just remind everyone when and where camp is going to be next year? Teri Martin: Camp is going to be June 1st to 3rd, that's a Friday, Saturday, Sunday, and it's going to be at the Roberts Centre/Eukanuba Hall in Wilmington, Ohio. I'm super excited about the venue. It's going to have six different rings running and it's going to be amazing. Melissa Breau: I'm super excited because it's the first year that it's been close enough that I can drive, so I can bring a working dog, and I have a puppy, so can't beat that. Teri Martin: Cool. Melissa Breau: How does registration work? I know it's a little complicated and people tend to ask questions. Teri Martin: Working spot registration is complicated. The regular stuff isn't. Working spot are given priority registration, so there are two phases for those. The first one is Phase 1, and it's going to open on January 8th at 9 a.m. Pacific Time. If you have eight or more courses at any level in FDSA, you will get an invitation to register for that phase. After that, we have Phase 2, which is for people who have four or more courses at any level. That will start January 10th. And then after that we open it to everybody. I should add that auditing is also available and you don't need to register super early for that, but we do suggest you do at least fairly soon, but it's not going to be the same as the demand for the working spots. Melissa Breau: Can they start registering for that on the 8th, did you say? Teri Martin: If you're eight or more, then it will start on the 8th, and if you're four or more it starts on the 2nd. And then general registration opens on the 15th. Melissa Breau: Gotcha. Where do people go for the official schedule and all the additional information that you've got out? Teri Martin: Go to the FDSA website and it's up on there under “More FDSA Education.” You will see a link for the training camp and all the information is there. Melissa Breau: All right, last one -- what is your favorite thing about camp? Teri Martin: Oh, so many things. For so many of us it's getting to see all these people that we feel that we've formed these friendships with, and it's just like you're greeting an old friend that you haven't seen for so long. And those instructors are exactly the same way as they appear when they're giving you advice. They're friendly and warm and funny and fabulous. So it's just the sense of bringing that whole community together in real life and getting all inspired to go home and train your dog. Melissa Breau: Awesome. I'm so looking forward to it. It's been an amazing experience the last few years being able to attend as a volunteer, and so I'm totally looking forward to seeing things from the other side! Teri Martin: We're going to miss having you as a volunteer, though. Melissa Breau: I'll be back next year. Do you want to introduce our first clip, or should I? Teri Martin: (something about the question I asked that led to this -- how Denise's training philosophy has influenced other aspects of her life -- maybe “First up is that first episode, an interview with Denise, from when you asked her…” ). I think it's pretty appropriate that we start with our fearless leader Denise. I think you had a question in the very first episode where you asked her how her training philosophy has influenced other aspects in her life, and for me that just totally sets the ground for how this whole wonderful school and the sense of community that surrounds it has come to be. Melissa Breau: Excellent. Let's play that clip. --- Denise Fenzi: It's been probably the most significant thing that's happened in my entire life. When I changed how I trained dogs, you have to be pretty obtuse not to recognize that we all learn the same way. And if you're a positive trainer with dogs and you really emphasize catching what they do right and ignoring what they do wrong, I mean, you really have to choose not to think about it, to realize that exactly the same thing is true with people. So for example both of my kids have very good manners, and I know how that came about in part. One thing is, I'm simply a respectful person and I encourage that. But I remember our first outings to restaurants when they were smaller, and if they said they would order for themselves, and they would say please and show nice manners, the second that person would walk away from the table I would say to my husband who'd be there, “I am so proud that we have kids who are so respectful and have such good manners. It makes me happy to go places with them.” And you could almost see the difference the next time that opportunity came up again, you could almost see them go just a little bit further with their good manners. And it's not something I comment on any more, because they're older, they're 12 and 16, but they do it by habit. And I know that some part of their brain is always aware of it. So I've never said to them “Say please, say thank you,” I don't tell them what to do, but when it happens I really work to catch those moments and acknowledge them. And I think dog training is a lot easier than child training, that's just my perspective. But I try to work with that, and I try not to think in terms of getting my kids to go to school and do well because I've restricted the rest of their lives, and I try to think in terms of balance and cooperation. Of course with people you can talk things out more. But at the end of the day if you're having any kind of conflict with another person, whether it's a family member or some random person you see on the street, the question I ask myself now is, do I want to feel better or do I want to change behavior? So if I want to feel better I may well behave badly, I may yell. I do yell, by the way. I do yell at my children, I do yell at my dogs. I know some people say, “That's amazing you do, you're not supposed to do that.” Well that's great, I'm glad you're all there. I'm not, so I will yell, “Get off the couch,” or whatever. I'm not really training, I'm expressing my upsetness. So that's, do I want to feel better? Yes, so I'm going to yell. Or somebody irritates me on the street because their dog runs up to mine and is off-leash, and so maybe I'm having a particularly bad day, and I might respond inappropriately. But then the second question is, do I want to change behavior? And I think recognizing that those are different things is really important because never, ever, ever am I yelling if I want to change behavior, and never am I talking to somebody like they're dumb, or ignorant, or anything, because it's all perspective, because they just have a different perspective. So maybe they don't understand that their off-leash dog running up to my old dog is a problem. And the reason it's a problem is, my dog is old and she doesn't like other dogs jumping on her. And I've had much better luck saying, “I know your dog is friendly, but my dog is very old and she has a lot of arthritis. And when your dog comes up like that it really scares her, and it hurts her.” And when I say that, without fail they apologize and they put their dogs on a leash. And I smile, I'm not angry. I might be inside, but I don't show it. The next time I see them we continue with a pleasant set of interactions. And that kind of thinking, do I want to feel better or do I want to change behavior, has been really quite impactful, whether in my family or with people. We often talk about with our dogs, sometimes dog trainers are a lot nicer to their dogs than people. I find that very incongruent, and I don't like to live my life that way. I like my life to make sense. And I think we need to be very aware of not only how we treat our pets but show that same courtesy to each other, and I find that from there I am a happier person. Because when you are kind with people instead of getting your emotions from stewing in your, "oh my God, I can't believe how stupid that person is," that I understand that we take pleasure in those periods of time when we feel superior to other people, because I guess that's where that comes from, I understand that. But it is a short-lived and negative form of emotion, and in the long run it leaves you feeling worse about the world. Whereas when you take the time to think about things from somebody else's point of view, I find that that leads to an understanding, and honestly it makes my life a lot better. It makes me a more pleasant and happy person, so that has a lot of value. --- Melissa Breau: I think that one has really stuck with me. I think it's really influenced what FDSA is and how it works, too. Teri Martin: A little-known fun fact about all of that: As you know, we have a really active Facebook group that's been so much of this community, and that started way back in November 2013, which was maybe two sessions in. There was a group of us that had taken both of these courses and were totally all excited about the FDSA thing and wanted to start a Facebook group. So I pushed Denise about it, and she was like, “Oh, you know, I've had so many bad experiences with groups. People get really nasty and mean, and I just don't want to have that. Well, you guys can go ahead, if that's what you want to do, but I don't want to be part of it.” and then she comes back about a week later and she says, “You know what, I thought it over and I think this is actually a pretty good thing, so let's go for it.” And from there on, the rest is history. Melissa Breau: Yeah, think about how big a part that plays in the community today. It's huge. Teri Martin: Yes. And another fun fact is she has to be really nice to me, because I can actually kick her out of the group because I'm the original founder. Melissa Breau: That's funny. Since you brought up the early days, for our next clip let's use the clip I have from Amy Cook, where she shares how she became one of the first instructors here at FDSA. --- Melissa Breau: So I wanted to ask you too about the early days of FDSA because I believe, I think you actually told me that you were one of the first teachers that Denise brought on at Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. So I was really curious to get some of your impressions on how you think it's changed and kind of what happened when she initially approached you. Amy Cook: Oh, boy. You know, it was standing in the right place at the right time, I swear. You know, she had taught online elsewhere and decided to do this endeavor, and I was just…I'm pretty sure I was just finishing grad school and saying, well, I guess I'm going back to dog training. I wasn't sure what I had in store, I'll just revamp or ramp up my business again, fine. And I can remember, I was standing near a freezer in her garage and I can't exactly remember how it came up but she said, “We have a behavior arm, could you teach what you teach, teach a class in what you do?” Boy, I felt…the answer was both yes and no. The answer is no because I've never done that, but the answer is yes because well, it has to be possible, right? Sure. I'll certainly try it. I really wanted to do something like that. But for a second there I was like, really? Behavior? Behavior, though. I mean, behavior. It's complicated. People are all over the place. Dogs are behaving all over the place. It's a lot to…how will I do this online? But I had faith. She really had vision early on for how this was going to go and we brainstormed, I was really excited about it. She actually came up with the title of the class, Dealing with the Bogeyman, that's hers. She's like, let's call it that. I was like, sure. It was exciting. It was exciting times and I was really just like, well, I'm happy to run a class and see what I can do for people. If it's something I don't feel is resulting in improvements that are reasonable for the dogs I'm helping then it's not right, then online is more suited for skill-based stuff and not so much the concepts or the complicated behaviors. I shouldn't have been afraid because it's been amazing. --- Teri Martin: It's just so cool how all this online stuff works. There was a conversation elsewhere about this with Amy where she said she couldn't believe how much her online students progressed. They get to digest all their information on their own time frame, they get their feedback quickly, they can take the time to set up the scenarios properly so they don't get dogs overwhelmed, and can ask daily questions of the instructor. That's just so more efficient than meeting once every two weeks. So it's really a great way to work behaviour stuff.   Melissa Breau: I think that was on her blog, where she wrote about the impact of online training. Teri Martin: I know it's come up a few times, so it very well could be in her blog. Melissa Breau: Not only is it an awesome way for people to train where they can set up scenarios and whatnot, but because it's online, it lets our students learn from some of the best trainers in the world, no matter where they live, it gives them access to these training concepts that maybe haven't quite become widespread enough for there to be classes on those topics locally. I think a good example of that is Julie Flanery's Imitation and Mimicry class. It's this really interesting concept that I couldn't imagine a local trainer trying to run a class on that. They'd be scrounging up students left and right. So I want to make sure we include a clip of her explaining that concept from her interview back in May. --- Melissa Breau: You kind of mentioned shaping and luring in there, but you wrapped up a class on Imitation and Mimicry and I have to say that's like such a fascinating concept. If you could start by just kind of explaining what that is for the listeners in case they're not aware of it, and just kind of sharing how you got into that, that would be great. Julie Flanery: Yeah. No, I'd love to. Imitation and Mimicry is a form of social learning or learning through observation, and we've long known it to be effective in human learning, but it wasn't until probably the last 10 years or so that we've really seen any studies on its use in dog training. I first heard about it at a ClickerExpo, a talk that Ken Ramirez gave on concept training in dogs, and then further researched Dr. Claudia Fugazza's study that she did, and in 2006 she created a protocol that showed that dogs can learn these new skills and behaviors by mimicking their owners and it's her protocol that we use in class. Also what's fascinating is that Ken Ramirez has developed a protocol for a dog-dog imitation and mimicry, and some of the videos I've seen on that are just truly, truly amazing. So, things that we didn't think were possible now we know are and we're actually able to bring to more people now. The class was really quite inspirational for me because my experience of course had been limited with it in working with it with my own dog and then some of my live classes, my students there in my live classes, we worked through it, and when Denise asked me to do a class on it I was really excited, but I wasn't quite sure what to expect and I have to say my students in that class are just amazing. They have really shown me what this protocol can do and how truly capable our dogs are of learning some of these concepts, so it's been a really exciting class for me. And matter of fact, I'm going to go ahead and put it back on...I think it is already...Teri's added it to the schedule for August, and so I'm really excited about doing it all over again. --- Melissa Breau: I love that our instructors are really well versed in such a wide variety of animal-related training and research. Teri Martin: No kidding! I think there's been tons of podcasts where you've had discussions about all sorts of cool research with dogs including I think even Kamal talked about teaching dogs how to fly a plane. I listened to one with our newest agility instructor just recently, Barbara Currier, who said that she was doing some wonderful things in the field of service dogs. Melissa Breau: Awesome. Let's give that a listen. --- Melissa Breau: So, I have to say, kind of working on your bio, it seems like you've had the opportunity to do lots of different really interesting things, in the world of dogs, from animal wrangling to working on wearable computing, so I wanted to ask a little more about what you do now. Can you tell us just a little bit about the FIDO Program there, at Georgia Tech, and what you're working on with the dogs there? Barbara Currier: Sure. So, FIDO stands for Facilitating Interactions for Dogs with Occupations. My best friend, Dr. Melody Jackson, she's a professor there, at Georgia Tech, and she runs the brain lab and the animal computer interaction lab. She came up with the idea of creating wearable computing for service dogs, military dogs, police, search and rescue, any type of working dog, and she asked me to come on to oversee the dog training aspects of the work. Within the last year, I've been really busy with travel, and so I, actually, haven't been working a lot with them, on the project, and she's actually taking over most of the dog training aspect, the pilot testing, with her dog, but up to this point, a lot of the stuff that they've created, it's kind of funny, when I tell people what I do there, the team that creates all the stuff, it's Melody Jackson and her lab partner Thad Starner, they're brilliant people, and the students that all work there are super brilliant. I am not a techy person. I'm lucky if I can turn my computer on, I just train dogs, so I kind of compare it to like the Big Bang theory, and I'm Penny amongst all of these brilliant people, and they just say stuff and I'm like, that's great, just tell me what you want the dogs to do. That's, kind of, where my expertise is, and I don't have any idea what the technical aspect of it is, but we've, actually, created some really cool things. They've created a vest that a service dog is trained to activate that has a tug sensor on it, and so we had a woman come to us that had a speech problem where she doesn't have, she can't project her voice out very loudly, and she's also wheelchair bound, and she was at the dog park, one day, with her dog, and her wheelchair got stuck in some mud, and she couldn't holler to anybody because her voice just didn't project like that, and she really needed, like, a way that she could send her service dog to get help to come back, and you know, but a dog running up to somebody, at a dog park, barking, nobody is going to think that's anything unusual. So, they created a vest that has a computer on it, and the dog has a tug sensor, on the vest, so she can direct the dog to go to somebody, and the dog can go up and it will pull a tug sensor and the vest will actually say, excuse me, my handler needs assistance, please follow me, and the dog can bring that person back to the handler.   --- Teri Martin: And how cool is that!  FDSA instructors have also been on the forefront of some of the new force free happenings with veterinary medicine. It makes so much sense to extend the positive philosophies when dealing with things that are so often necessary but not necessarily pleasant for the dog.  I think Debbie Gross has some great views on that?    Melissa Breau: Yup, let's roll that clip. --- Melissa Breau: Now, I think that veterinarians and the medical field in general isn't always known as the most positive part of dog sports, so I'd love to get your take on that. How do positive training and rehabilitation overlap, and are there places where they just can't? Debbie Gross: Yeah. And that's a very good question. I belong to an organization, I sit on the board called Fear Free, and their whole goal and mission is to establish fear-free veterinarians' offices, rehab offices, looking at training facilities, boarding facilities, things like that, so it's all aimed at making sure the experience is positive and fear free. And certainly…you know, we laugh in our clinic because we're not the vet, so dogs come in and they know they're getting copious amounts of cookies, and it's going to be a great place, and they love it, and so I think it's very important to, you know, right off the bat we want to make sure the owner and the dog are very comfortable. Certainly, dogs often will become fearful or potentially aggressive if they're in pain, so I always tell the trainers that I work with, assume that it's physical before behavioral. Now, I'll hear so many times from owners, "Oh, my dog didn't want to do the A-frame this morning. It's probably because …" You know, they make something up and then get steak for dinner. They swear they don't think like that. You know, they probably didn't want to do something because they're in pain. Something like the A-frame puts a lot of stress on the dogs back, and the hips, and stuff like that, so understanding if a dog is fearful, or doesn't want to do something, looking at the reason why, you know, so is it pain that is prohibiting them from doing something. And certainly, some dogs are not candidates, like, we've turned dogs away because they're either too fearful, or they just can't do … they don't want to do anything, and rather than forcing them, we won't do that, you know, and that's a little bit different than traditional vet medicine where dogs need to go in. They may need to get an exam, or their vaccinations, or things like that, but this fear free movement is fantastic, and you know, looks at everything from the lighting, their potential pheromones in the air to relax the dogs, and cats also, and other animals, so most the time in rehab dogs love it. They love coming into our office, and it's fun, and it's all positive, and you know, that's the way I want it to be. I mean, I love when the dogs pull their owners into the office, so you know that they're having a great time, so it's great. --- Teri Martin: And of course, using positive training in places where it hasn't historically been used,  carries over into training sports that have been resistant to positive methods too -- like IPO and Gun Dog sports. Melissa Breau: Cassia offers positive gun dog training classes here at FDSA, so I wanted to include this clip from her on the importance of work and play. --- Melissa Breau: I know I mentioned in your bio that you believe dog training should be a form of structured play. It sounds like that's a little bit what you're talking about, but can you explain a little more what that phrase means, or at least what it means to you, and what it looks like in practice, like within a training session? Cassia Turcotte: Sure. I think that…I'm trying to think where I actually first heard that term, and it may have been even Lindsey that said it, but really, it's…you know, I don't want the dog to feel like what we're doing is work. If you feel like you're being dragged to work every day, it's mentally hard, but if they go out and they go, oh my gosh, this is the coolest thing ever, I can't wait to do more of it, then the attitude's up, the motivation's up, and you don't have any trouble with compliance. You know, they're really willing to play the game, and it's fun. It's fun for me and it's fun for them, so you know, it's one of the things…you know, how would it look in a training session? One of the things that we do in field work is called the walk up, and all that is, is a bumper is thrown in the air as you're heeling with the dog, and it's thrown in front of the dog, and the point of it is to challenge the dog to stay heeling and stay steady with you, and the traditional way would be to correct them for not doing that. So in our way, we jackpot with Chuckit! ball or tug or food as a reinforcement for being steady, you know, so they see the bumper go up, and they sit, and we say, “Oh my gosh, that's awesome,” and we throw a Chuckit! ball in the opposite direction, and so it's all a game, and it's about keeping them guessing and mentally challenging them and getting it so that they really understand what they're being asked to do, and they're not just corrected for not understanding. So I think that's pretty much what it would look like in an average day. --- Melissa Breau: We also mentioned IPO, before sharing that clip from Cassia, and the trainer best known for that at FDSA, hands down, is Shade Whitesel. With driven dogs, frustration problems can be a real issue; Shade has spent the last few years looking at how to prevent frustration through clear communication. During her interview back in February, she talked about location specific markers, which are one of the things she's known for here at the school. Teri Martin: I'm taking Shade's class right now with my young, 6-month-old puppy, and I'm absolutely loving this concept. It's really cool to see the clarification in how my dog knows that chase means [26:33] and you get the ball and [26:34] grab it out of my hands and [26:37] you can see the clarity, so I'm happy to see this clip. --- Shade Whitesel: No matter how you train, communicating as clearly as possible is so important, because 99.9 percent of our problems are due to the unclarity of our teaching. And all of our problems with dogs — I mean it's really our problem it's not theirs — go away when you look at the clarity, or more accurately the ‘not clarity' of your teaching. When your communication is clear arousal levels go down, frustration from your learner dog goes down, and you get more confident and fluent behaviors from them. And this holds true over trialing, over living with them, over everything, just to be as clear as possible and predictable, that goes into predictability too. So, no matter what method you do that is just so important I think — obviously, since I talk about it. Melissa Breau: So, I think one really good example of that is the work you've done with location specific markers. Do you mind just briefly kind of explaining what that means and kind of how you use them? Shade Whitesel: You know, markers are such a good thing and people are exploring them, and figuring out that it's really nice to bridge what behavior your dogs doing to get their reward. Tell the dog where to collect their reinforcement, like, technically I want a different marker that means collect it from my hands, whether that's food or a toy and I want a different marker that means collect it away from there, whether it's go pick-up the toy on the ground or whether I'm going to throw the toy, and again it's just that clarity. And I notice with my own dogs if I had a different marker word for, “Strike the tug out of my hand,” versus, “I'm going to throw it,” the dog stopped mugging me, they stopped looking for where the toy was all the time when I was asking for behaviors. Because they knew that I would tell them exactly how to get their reinforcement. And again, it just goes back to the clarity. So, location specific markers is just the dog knows exactly where to go and they don't have to be checking where the toy is or the food — is the food in your pocket? Is it over there in the dish? Because you're going to tell them so they can put 100 percent of their attention to figuring out what behavior you want them to do, because they can trust that you're going to tell them where the reinforcement is. --- Melissa Breau: The other person who really focuses on helping frustrated dogs at FDSA is Sarah Stremming. Sarah has her own podcast, but I've been lucky enough to chat with her twice so far, and wanted to share her take on frustrated dogs vs. dogs who just lack impulse control. Teri Martin: Let's roll that clip. --- Sarah Stremming: I think that for the worked-up types of dogs the most common misconception that I hear about is that these dogs lack impulse control, that a lack of impulse control is the problem. Or that a lack of … if we're going to be very accurate, we would be saying a lack of impulse control training is a problem. Just the phrase “impulse control” makes my eye twitch just a little bit because I think that it implies that there's this intrinsic flaw in these dogs that if they can't control themselves that there's something wrong with them, or that teaching them to control their impulses is something that we can do. I don't think that we can control their impulses one way or another. We can certainly control their behaviors with reinforcement. Whether or not we're controlling their impulses is probably one of those things that we would have to ask them about, kind of like asking them if they were lonely and if that was why they were jumping all over the person coming home. So I like to stay away from stating that lack of impulse control is a problem. I also think that in agility specifically we accept that our dogs will be in extremely high states of arousal and be kind of losing their mind, and we almost want them that way, and any kind of calmness is frowned upon. The dogs that are selected to breed for the sport tend to be the frantic, loud, fast ones, and looking at behaviors, there's just kind of a distaste in agility, I feel — and I'm going to get a million e-mails about this — I love agility, people! I love agility! I'm just going to put that out there! But there is a distaste for calm and methodical behaviors in agility. We push for speed, speed, speed from the beginning, and we forget that sometimes maybe we should shut up and let the dog think through the problem. So I think, to get back to your original question, “What's the misconception?” The misconception is that we need to put them in a highly aroused state to create a good sport dog, and that impulse control is the be-all, end-all of these things. And then, for the hidden-potential dogs, I think the misconception is just that they lack work ethic. They say, “These dogs they lack work ethic, they give you nothing, they don't want to try, they're low drive,” yada yada. I think that's all misconceptions. Everything comes back to reinforcement. When you realize that reinforcement is the solution to everything, you can start to solve your problems and quit slapping labels on the dogs you're working with. --- Teri Martin: I love that. She says, “Shut up and let the dog think,” and also that she says to quit slapping labels on the dogs, because we see so much of that. I love how she's challenging people to think outside the box on all those arousal questions. Melissa Breau: I couldn't agree more. Those are definitely topics that have come up again and again on the podcast, just the idea of not labeling your dog and giving your dog time to process through things. But they definitely aren't the only running themes. I think probably one of the most popular things I've heard, talking to FDSA instructors at least, is how important foundation skills are, and how much of a difference a strong foundation can really make. In fact, Kamal said it was his absolute favorite thing to teach. Teri Martin: Cool. Let's hear. --- Kamal Fernandez: My actual favorite topic is foundations for any dog sport -- that is by far my favorite topic, because that's where all the good stuff happens. That's where you really lay your… well, your foundations, for a successful career in any dog discipline. And I think the irony is that people always want to move on to what I would qualify as the sexy stuff, but the irony is the sexy stuff is actually easy if your foundations are laid solidly and firmly. And I think I've had more  “ah-ha” moments when I teach foundations to people than I have with anything else. I also, i have to say, i like behavioral issues. You can make GREAT impact, and literally change somebody's life and their dog's life, or save somebody's life with behavioral work and giving them a new take on how they deal with their dog at present, but i would say really, really extreme behavioral cases are really, really juicy to get involved in, and dogs that people say they're on the cusp of writing the dog off, and the dog is so phobic or aggressive or dog reactive or whatever the case may be, and you can literally turn that person and that dog's relationship around. That's really rewarding and enjoyable to work with. But I would say as a standard seminar, I would say foundations by far. It's just you've got young, green dogs, you can see the light bulbs going off for the dogs, you can see the pieces being strung together, that are going to ultimately lead to the dog being this amazing competitive dog, and you can see it literally unfold before your eyes. --- Teri Martin: Foundations are one of those things that keep coming up. We see it at camp all the time. People think it's part of an exercise that's wrong, and it's something that's in that exercise, but nine times out of the ten it comes back to how that foundation was taught. Melissa Breau: I definitely want to share one more clip on that because, like you said, it's constantly coming up. This next one's from Deb Jones, who's known for covering all of the awesome foundation skills in her Performance Fundamentals class and her Get Focused class. So I asked her that exact question: Why are foundations so important. --- Melissa Breau: Right, so both the Focused class and your current class, the Performance Fundamentals class, seem to fall into that foundations category, right? So I wanted to ask you what you thought it was so…what is it about building a good foundation that is so critical when it comes to dog sports? Deb Jones: Foundation really is everything. I truly believe that. If you do your foundations well you won't run into problems later on or…I won't say you won't. You won't run into as many problems later on or if you do run into problems you will have a way to fix them because the problem is in the foundation. Ninety-nine percent of the time something wasn't taught to fluency or you left something out somewhere. You've got a gap or a hole, so going back to foundation and making it strong is always the answer. It's never a wrong thing to do. So I really like being able to try to get in that really strong basis for everything else you want. I don't care what sport people are going into or even if they're not going into sport at all. If they just like training and they want to train their dog this…a good foundation prepares you for any direction in the future because oftentimes we change direction. You have a dog you think you're going to be doing obedience with, but if you focus in the beginning too much on obedience behaviors, it may end up that dog just isn't right for that, and so you have kind of these gaps for.. "Oh well, let's see if I want to switch to agility. Now I need to train a new set of behaviors." We don't want that to happen, so we've got the foundation for pretty much everything. --- Teri Martin: So true what Deb says. Having those foundations just sets up the basis for everything we do in a dog's life, including how they have to function in our society today ... which I believe takes us nicely into our next clip, which is Heather Lawson talking about life skills in her Hound About Town classes. Melissa Breau: Excellent. Let's let it roll. --- Melissa Breau: Now, you didn't touch on two of the things that stood out to me when I was looking at the syllabus, which were the Do Nothing training, and Coffee Anyone, so what are those and obviously how do you address them in class? Heather Lawson: Yeah. I always get kind of weird sideways looks when I talk about Do Nothing training, because it's kind of like…people say, ‘What do you mean do nothing training,' and I say, “Well, how often do you just work on having your dog do nothing,” and everybody looks at me, “Well, you don't work on having the dog do nothing,” and I say, “Oh yeah, you do.” That's what we call settle on the mat, chill, learn how to not bug me every time I sit down at the computer to do some work, not bark at me every time I stop to chat with the neighbor, stop pulling me in all different ways, so it's kind of like just do nothing, because if you think about it the first maybe six months of your dog's life it's all about the dog and the puppy. Then when they get to look a little bit more adult all of a sudden they're no longer the center of attention, but because they've been the center of attention for that first eight weeks to six months, and there's been all this excitement whenever they're out and people stop, and you chat or you do anything, it's very hard for the dog all of a sudden now to have this cut off and just not be acknowledged, and this is where you then get the demand barking, or the jumping on the owner, or the jumping on other people to get that attention, whereas if you teach that right in the very beginning, okay, and teach your puppies how to settle, whether it be in an x pen, or in a crate, or even on a mat beside you while you're watching your favorite TV show. If you teach them to settle, and how to turn it off then you're going to not have that much of a problem going forward as they get older. The other thing, too, is that by teaching the dogs all of these different things that we want to teach them, that's great, and that's fabulous, and we should be doing that, but most dogs aren't active 100 percent of the time, they're active maybe 10 percent of the time. The other 90 percent they're chilling out, they're sleeping, they're…while their owners are away working if they're not lucky enough to be taken out for a daily hike, then they've got to learn how to turn it off, and if we can teach them that in the early stages you don't end up with severe behavior problems going forward, and I've done that with all of my puppies, and my favorite place to train the “do nothing” training is actually in the bathroom. What I do with that is my puppies, they get out first thing in the morning, they go their potty, they come back in, we get a chewy or a bully stick, or a Kong filled with food, and puppy goes into the bathroom with me and there's a mat, they get to lay down on the mat and that's when I get to take my shower, and all of my dogs, even to this day, even my 11-year-old, if I'm showering and the door's open they come in and they go right to their mat and they go to sleep, and they wait for me, and that's that “do nothing” training, right, and that actually even follows into loose leash walking. If you take that “do nothing” training how often are you out in your loose leash walking and you stop and chat to the neighbor, or you stop and you are window shopping, or anything else that you when you're out and about. If your dog won't even connect with you at the end of the line, then just…they won't even pay attention to you while you're standing there, or they create a fuss, then the chances of you getting successful loose leash walking going forward is going to be fairly slim, okay.   The other thing that you mentioned was the coffee shop training, and that is nowadays people go and they meet at the coffee shop, or they go for lunch, and more and more people are able to take their dogs to lunch, providing they sit out on a patio, and on the occasion where the dog is allowed to stay close to you we teach the dogs to either go under the table and chill or go and lay beside the chair and chill, and teach them how to lay there, switch off, watch the world go by. Even if the waiter comes up, you just chill out and just relax and that allows the dog, again because they've got good manners, to be welcomed even more places. Melissa Breau: Right. It makes it so that you feel comfortable taking them with you to lunch or out. Heather Lawson: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. There's lots of places that dogs can go, providing, and they're welcome, providing they do have those good manners, and if we can keep those good manners going then regardless of whether or not your dog sports or not, it just opens up the avenues for so much more of us to do…more things to do with our dogs. --- Melissa Breau: Of course training and competition aren't entirely about our dogs… we play a big role in their success or failure in the ring. And that can lead to some serious ring nerves on both ends of the leash. Teri Martin: It always comes back to us, doesn't it? But the good news is FDSA has our resident “people trainer,” Andrea Harrison, to help us with this.   --- Melissa Breau: So let's dig into a couple of those specifically just a little bit more, because I know there are a couple that we talked about a little bit before the podcast and whatnot as being particularly important. So I wanted to dig into this idea of kind of ring nerves and people experiencing nerves before a competition, things that really impact their handling. I was hoping you could talk a little more about that, maybe include a tip or two listeners can use when it comes to ring nerves and tackling it themselves. Andrea Harrison: Yes. For sure. One of the things I really encourage people to do is test those tools. So people go off to a trial and they're really, really, really nervous, but they don't know whether those nerves are physical, right, or in their head, or if they're affecting the dog at all, right? Because they've never really thought about it. All they know is that they're really, really, really nervous. They feel sick but they don't know is it in their tummy, is it in their head, is it their respiration, is it sweat glands, is it all of them, right? They haven't thought about it, they know it makes them feel sick so they push it aside, they don't work on it between trials, they go back to a trial and they're like, oh my God, I was nervous again. Well, of course you were nervous again. You didn't try working on anything, right? So like everything else it's almost like a training exercise. You have to think about what is making you nervous, how are you manifesting those nerves, and how can you break them down? It's just the same, right, just the same as positive dog training. Break it down into these tiny little pieces that you can then find a tool to address. So for example, if your mouth gets really, really dry and that distracts you and you start sort of chewing cud, as it were, as a cow, you're like, trying to get the water back in your mouth and it makes you nervous. Well, once you figure that out you take peppermints with you in the car, you suck on a peppermint before you go in the ring, and that's gone away. Right? And that's gone away so you feel more comfortable so you can concentrate on the thing you need to concentrate on, right? You want to always build to those results slowly. When you look at the nerves, I can't say to you, “Here's my magic wand, I'm going to wave it over you and all your nerves will be gone.” But you get that sick, sick feeling in the pit of your stomach, why is that? Are you remembering to eat the day before a trial? Are you eating too much the day before a trial? Are you remembering to go to the bathroom? Because when you're nervous you have to go to the bathroom, so make sure you make time to go to the bathroom because then there's less to cramp in your tummy, right? So step by step by step, you know, you make a plan, you look at the plan. What kind of music should you listen to on the way to the show? Should you listen to a podcast that's inspirational to you? Should you put together an inspirational play tack? Do you know exactly where the show is? If you're anxious and worried and always run late, for Lord's sake, please drive to the trial ahead of time or Google Map it really carefully and build yourself in 15 minutes extra, because being late to that trial is not going to help your nerves. You're going to arrive, you're going to be panicked, you're going to be stressed. So where is that stress coming from? How are those nerves manifesting themselves, right? So the music that you listen to on the way, having the mint if your breath is dry, remembering to go to the bathroom, thinking about what I call Andrea's Rule of Five. So Rule of Five is really simple. Is it going to matter in five minutes? Five hours? Five days? Five years? Right? So if something is stressing you out you can actually stop, ground yourself, which I'll get into in a sec, but ground yourself and think, Rule of Five. And the vast majority of the time, yeah, it might matter in five minutes because your run will just be over and it was not successful and you're embarrassed, maybe, or maybe it was great, and like, super. But very, very few of us are going to remember a run in even five months, let alone five years. I mean, you might remember in general, but your anxiety is not going to still be there, right? I mean, a great run you can remember. I can probably still tell you the details of some of Brody's amazing agility runs or Sally's amazing work, right? Like, I can describe going from the A-frame around to the tunnel and picking him up and staying connected and it was beautiful. I can remember the errors of enthusiasm, right, like when he took an off-course tunnel, and he's never done that in his life, and I was like, oh my God, he took an off-course tunnel. That's amazing. That's so cool, and we celebrated. So I just loved that he was that happy about it. But do I remember those very first, early trials where…do I remember the courses where I stood thinking, I'm never going to get my agility dog to Canada? No. I don't really remember. I remember being sad that he was three seconds over the time and _____ (18:35) [47:44], and that was kind of sucky, but it was okay, right? Like, now with all this perspective it's fine. --- Teri Martin: There's a lot, really, that affects both ends of the leash. After all, we're all learners… it can be easy to forget that sometimes. Melissa Breau: Nancy, for example, shared during her interview how her father influenced her training. He was a football coach, and she's a dog trainer, but that doesn't matter -- because it's all training. Let's listen to that clip. --- Nancy Gagliardi Little: He was a master at analysis, details and creative solutions and i think that's something that I've either inherited or I've learned from him. Melissa Breau: I was going to say, even just listening to you I can hear the parallels to dog sports; just the idea that breaking things down into pieces and foundation skills. Nancy Gagliardi Little: Exactly. This is the other piece that I think is so cool is he expected them to be excellent players, as well as excellent human beings, and he believes in people, and he respects people, loves to learn about people. There's so much about his coaching that parallels the way I train my dogs because I expect and focus on their excellence too. I believe in my dogs -- I always believe in them. I believe they're right and they're telling me things. I listen to them and try to make changes to my training based on what they need. Those are all things that my dad taught me from the way he coached his players. There are so many parallels between coaching and dog training; just his way of coaching, it helped me as a dog trainer. Melissa Breau: I'd really love to hear how you describe your training philosophy now -- what's really important to you? Or what do you see as the big things that you believe in how you believe in training when you work with dogs today? Nancy Gagliardi Little: Well, I guess to sum it up, it's not a really long philosophy. What sums it up for me is I just always look at my dogs as my coaches. So the dogs are my coaches, whether they're my students' dogs, whether they're my dogs, they're the ones who they're helping me develop a plan, and I like to think of it that way because it keeps me always evaluating and looking at things. --- Teri Martin: Dogs as coaches is one of those gifts that sometimes takes us in new directions we never expected. Take Stacy Barnett, nosework instructor, for example. She sort of fell into that sport because of her dog, Judd, just needed to have something, and now it's  turned into this incredible passion for scent sports. I think she talks about that on her podcast and how the sport is so good for dogs that might struggle in some of the more traditional sport venues. Melissa Breau: She did! Let's give that a listen. --- Stacy Barnett: Nose work is not only a confidence builder. It can also help reactive dogs. Nose work itself is very reactive-dog friendly in those venues because the dog doesn't have to work within eyeshot or earshot of another dog. They get to work on their own. However, it really does help from a confidence perspective. The sense of smell is actually pretty amazing. It goes through the limbic system, which means that it goes through the hippocampus and the amygdala. So the amygdala is kind of the fight or flight area, and the hippocampus is responsible for developing those early memories. So what happens is, is that the dog is scenting, and the dog is using about one-eighth of his brain with scenting, and this is all going through this system that's responsible for emotion and responsible for memory. If we can develop this positive feeling toward sensing and toward scent, we can actually help to put the dog into a really good space so that they can work, and also, you know, as long as you're working the dog under threshold, the dog is able to continue to work and will actually become more confident over time and actually less reactive over time. I saw this particularly with my little dog, Why. When he came to me, he could not work at all away from the house. He was also fairly reactive to other dogs. Had about 100-foot visual threshold to seeing other dogs. Now, through nose work, he has developed a lot of confidence. He's now able to search in novel environments with very little acclimation, and he's also quite a bit less reactive. He's got about an eight-foot visual threshold now to other dogs, which I think is absolutely amazing. So the behavioral benefits, especially for a dog like Why, they're off the charts. Absolutely off the charts. --- Melissa Breau: It has been a lot of fun to see the sport of Nosework grow so quickly in the last few years. The AKC has even added it to their list of sports. I caught up with Julie Symons on the new handler scent portion that is part of the new Scent Work competition program with the AKC in Episode 39. --- Melissa Breau: I want to switch a little bit from outcomes to training… what challenges are there when training a dog to search for handler scent, you kind of mentioned that, that may not be present when you're teaching traditional odors? Julie Symons: That's a good question. First, it is just another odor. We can attack it that way and it's true, this is another odor that we teach your dog. But it is different in that it does have its challenges, especially for savvy nosework dogs that have been in oil for a lot of years. We've seen a little bit of it being a little bit more difficult for them in certain situations. For example, there's no aging handler scent, like with the oil odor. So oil hides, the nosework venues we've been at, they're usually placed and they're out there 30 minutes to hours, so the odor is going to disperse more and diffuse into the area. For handler scent you pretty much give it its last scent, you hand it over to the helper, they place it, and then you go in and run. So the scent's going to have less diffuse in the area, handler scents is heavier, that's going to fall down more than, like, a vapor odor oil will disperse in a room, and of course it depends on airflow. Any kind of airflow is going to travel in each scent. It's going to be helpful to your dog that the scent's going to travel into the space. With my dogs and many teams that I've worked in, I find that the dogs have to get a lot closer to where the hide is for handler scents to really hone on that. So in this case I'm not talking about the novice level and boxes; I'll get back to that. But if they hide Q-Tips or cotton balls in a search area, your dog really has to get close to it to find it. So what I'm finding is that I'm actually introducing a little bit more of direction with my handler scent and it's actually helped a lot, and it gets my dog focused and more... not a  patterned search, but just getting them to search. For example, in Advanced Handler Discrimination, it's an interior search, and no hide is higher than 12 inches. So I'm going to plant low. I'm going to be, like, have my dog search low, and they find it really easily. And I found when I have blind hides somebody has set up for me, I feel more liberated to point and direct. Whereas if I know where the hide is, we tend to not want to intervene at all and my dog finds it quicker, because I don't know where it is and I'm just going to have my dog cover the area and then they usually find it. So that's been very helpful in the difference with the handler scent. Also another thing that's interesting if you watch dogs search the traditional oil hides in a box, they just find it really easy. You put your scented glove in a box and the dogs just search differently. They have to go cover the boxes a few times, they just don't hit on it as easily as oil. That oil odor, especially for AKC, is so strong, and your handler scented item is just not going to be as strong in a box, especially it's not aged. So those are some of the differences and why I think the handler scent is a little bit harder to source for a dog, just because of the amount of odor that you have and the fact that it's not aged. --- Melissa Breau: And while we're talking nosework, we have to include a clip from my call with Melissa Chandler. Like Stacy, nosework became her passion after she saw the positive effect it could have on a more sensitive dog, like her dog Edge. Teri Martin: I think there's some really great takeaways for handlers who have softer dogs in that interview. --- Melissa Breau: Now, having worked with a soft dog, do you have tips for others who have soft dogs, kind of to help them let their dog shine or that they should know about setting up training sessions? I mean, what kind of advice would you share? Melissa Chandler: Sure, this is another subject that I did a lot of research and I attended a lot of different seminars to try and get information, mostly to help Edge, and I think, first and foremost, it's so important to keep your dog safe and build their trust because once they trust you, that you will keep them safe, that gives them more confidence, and as I always tell my dogs, I have a cue, it's called “I have your back.” So, if they see something and they get concerned, I'm like, “I got your back.” So, that's our communication of whatever it is, I see it, you're fine, I got you, and it just takes time and by keeping them safe you build that trust that they know that you do have them. I would say never lure or trick your dog into doing something that they don't feel comfortable doing. Sometimes we find that in parkour because someone really thinks their dog should be able to do that behavior and the dog doesn't feel comfortable in that environment, so they tried to take cookies and lure them there. Just back off, work on it somewhere else, and eventually it'll happen. If you lure them, and then they get up there and they're really afraid, they're never going to want to do it again. If you let them do it on their own then they'll be able to do that anywhere in the future. Teach new behaviors in a familiar, comfortable environment, and then when you're ready to take it to another room or on the road, lower your criteria and reward any effort that the dog gives you in trying to do that for you. And one thing, when you're setting up your training sessions, make sure you're not always asking for difficult behaviors or, in nose work, difficult searches. You want your dog to always look forward to and succeed in your training sessions. If your sessions are always difficult and challenging your dog will no longer look forward to them. Have fun sessions that you reward everything, or just play, or do whatever your dog enjoys most. I had mentioned how much Edge loved his dumbbell, there's times we just go in the other room and we play with the dumbbell and he loves that, and just think of the value you're building in your relationship in your training because we just went and did what he loves doing. And then, for nose work, play foundation games. Just have one or two boxes out, do the shell game, play with your game boxes so it's fun, fast, quick, highly rewarding searches. And, I have a thing that I put in most of my classes, it's kind of like your recalls but it's for odor. How much value do you have in your odor bank. And, when you set up these fun, fast, foundation games, you're putting lots of value in your odor bank so, then when you have a more challenging side, you have deposits in that odor bank that they can pull out in order to work harder to find that odor. --- Melissa Breau: Gotta love those tips from Melissa C. So our next two clips, I think, really speak to Denise's sixth sense for bringing on new trainers… she seems to excel at tracking down people who really are incredibly good at what they do, but who also truly imbue the FDSA additude. Teri Martin: I agree. I think our next clip, from Chrissi Schranz, really shows what that attitude is all about. --- Melissa Breau: So I wanted to get into your training philosophy, and lucky me, I got a sneak peek before we started. You sent me over the link for this, but I'd love to have you kind of share your training philosophy and how you describe your approach, and for those of you who are going to want to see this after she talks about it, there will be a link to the comic in the show notes. Chrissi Schranz: Yeah, so I'd say my training philosophy is based on my favorite Calvin and Hobbes cartoon. So Calvin has a shovel and he's digging a hole, and then Hobbes comes up and asks him why he's digging a hole, and Calvin says he's looking for buried treasure. Hobbes asks him what he has found, and Calvin starts naming all kinds of things, like dirty rocks and roots and some disgusting grubs, and then Hobbes gets really excited, and he's like, “Wow, on your first try?” And Calvin says, “Yes. There's treasure everywhere,” and that is the kind of experience I want people and their dogs to have with each other. I want them to feel like life is an adventure, and there's so many exciting things to be discovered that they can do together. I want people to learn to look at the world through their dog's eyes a little bit and find this pleasure and just be together, and doing things and discovering things, whether that's digging a hole or playing in dog sports. Yeah, I want them to feel like they're friends and partners in crime and have that Calvin and Hobbes kind of relationship, because I believe if you have that kind of relationship as a foundation, you can do pretty much anything you want, no matter whether you want to have a dog you can take anywhere or whether you want to compete and do well in dog sports. I think if you have that kind of relationship as a basis, everything is possible. --- Melissa Breau: I like that… “Everything is possible.” You certainly can't predict how far a handler and dog can go, if they build a fantastic relationship. Sue Yanoff talked to that a bit too -- she had some great things to say about how our relationship with our dog makes us a great advocate when they need medical care. --- Melissa Breau: Is there anything in particular about veterinary medicine that sports handlers often just don't understand? Sue Yanoff: Yeah. I don't think it's just sports handlers. I think it's a lot of people. Veterinary medicine is a science, and the decisions that we make have to be based on science, and not just what people think, or what they heard, and so when you're making a decision about what the best diagnostics are for a condition, or how best to treat the condition, it has to be based on a series of cases, not just on what somebody thinks, and I go a lot based on what I learn at continuing education conferences, and what I read in the veterinary literature. Because papers that are published in peer reviewed journals are scrutinized to make sure that the science behind the conclusions are valid. So while, you know, it's fine for somebody to say , “Well, I did this with my dog and he did great,” what I want to make my decisions on is what worked well for many dogs, dozens, or hundreds, or thousands of dogs, and not just something that might have worked for your dog where we don't even know if the diagnosis was the same. So I think I want people to know that veterinary medicine is a science, and we have to make our decisions based on science. Melissa Breau: I think that, you know, especially with the internet these days it's very common for people to turn to their favorite local forum, and be like well what should I do, but… Sue Yanoff: I know, like, let me get advice from everybody, and I know it's hard to make decisions when it involves your dog and you're emotionally involved, and that's one of the reasons I want to teach this class, to give people information that they can use to make those hard decisions. Melissa Breau: What about the reverse? Are there things about sports that you think most vets just they don't understand? Sue Yanoff: Oh yes. Yes there's a lot. Unless you're a vet who's involved in this thing, most vets don't understand the time and the effort, and the emotion, and the money that goes into the training, and the trialing that we do. They don't understand the special relationship that we have with our dogs when we put the time and effort into training them. I have had dogs that were wonderful pets, and I loved them, but I never showed them for one reason or another, and there is a different relationship when you accomplish something special with that dog. So I think that's important thing. The other thing that most vets don't understand, and might not agree with, but I have had some clients where we have diagnosed an injury, and said, “Okay, we need to restrict activity, and do the conservative treatment route,” and they say, “I will, but my national specialty is next week, and she's entered in whatever class.” Or they say, “I have a herding finals coming up in two weeks, and I really want to run her in those trials,” and I'm okay with that if the dog has an injury that I don't think is likely to get much worse by doing a little more training, or trialing, then I'll say, “Okay. Well, let's do this in the meantime, and when you're done with your national or with your specialty or whatever, come on back and we'll start treatment.” So I think a lot of vets would not understand that point of view, but I'm okay with it as long as I don't think that it's going to do serious harm to the dog, and as long as the owner understands that there's, you know, a slight chance that things could get worse. --- Teri Martin: One of the great things about all these podcasts is hearing all the instructors' personal stories. For example, you've just gotta love a Sue Ailsby story. Her talk stories are well worth the price of admission in any of her classes. Melissa Breau: She shared a great story about her cross-over dog when we talked. --- Sue Ailsby: The first dog I trained, it wasn't clicker training but it was without corrections, was a Giant Schnauzer and I got her to about eight months and it was glorious. And we were getting ready for an obedience trial and I'm heeling along, and part of my brain is saying, isn't this glorious? She's never had a correction and she's heeling. And the other half of my brain is saying, but she doesn't know she has to. And then the first part, why should she know she has to? She knows she wants to, but she doesn't know she has to. I'm going to put a choke chain on her and I'm just going to tell her that she has to. This is not negotiable. You don't want to put a choke chain on her, you've spent eight mon

What happens when you don't schedule a guest and then, at the last minute, when your magazine deadline ends, you decide to drink some beers and do an "ask me anything" session? This. This is what happens. Ray Hunt's tower, which writer is most successful, the Cotton Bowl — the boys tackle some disparate topics.

Lester Buckley - Horsetrainer, Clinician, Breeder Lester Buckley was not a trainer I was familiar with. Listener Robin Kane has been helping out getting guests for the show and she is hosting a clinic with Lester Buckley in Willits, Ca. at Berry Creek Ranch, August 18 - 20.  It's great to learn from every trainer, and I wanted to find out Lester's story. We got a hold of Lester via Skype while he was waiting on a load of hay to arrive.  Lester lives in Kentucky and, boy, does he have a story to tell.  Lester worked on the King and Parker ranches.  One is in Texas, the other in Hawaii.  Both are very large cattle operations.  Lester gained a great deal of experience from riding on these to ranches and he talks about it on the show. Lester attributes a lot of his early experience to riding horses at the ranch of Delwin Burch, cutting horse trainer and breeder.  The experience he gained there led him to learn more from Ray Hunt.  After earning a degree in equine science from Sul Ross State University in Texas he began working and training horses.  Lester also competed in cutting and captured the Reserve World Champion APHA Open Superstakes. Wanting to learn more about classical horsemanship and precision movement, Lester Buckley turned to the German Equestrian School where he learned from some of the top trainers in Europe. Clinics Lester Buckley        Lester Buckley Website Tell Us Your Problems Have a problem with your horse?  Do you have a favorite trainer you would like to hear from?  Send us your question and the name of your favorite trainer and we'll see if we can contact them and get you an answer.  Email John@whoapodcast.com or call on our message line (661) 368-5530 (toll charges may apply).

Carson James did NOT grow up owning his own horse.  He wanted to learn more about horsemanship and got on-the-job training on ranches from Oregon to Montana to Arizona.  It was there he got the knowledge of some of the least known, but most experienced horse trainers there are by working on those cattle ranches.  He also learned a lot from a book by Ray Hunt his parents gave him.  He read and re-read, Think Harmony with Horses over and over until he knew the main principles inside and out. In addition, Carson James spent many years working as a horse trainer in Florida in the winter focusing on performance horses.  Then, in the summertime, he worked on the big cattle outfits out west.  This gave him a unique opportunity to blend what he learned from the ranches with what he learned from the performance horse trainers.  Each group has a little different style and goal to training and, by alternating between the two, Carson James had a well-rounded education in horsemanship.

SHOW NOTES:  Summary: Loretta Mueller has been involved in agility since 2003. Loretta and her dogs are no strangers to the finals at the USDAA World Championships and she currently coaches the World Agility Organization USA Agility Team. She also runs FullTilt Agility Training in central Minnesota. Outside of the agility world, Loretta has been involved in herding, competitive obedience, rally and service dog training. Links mentioned: FullTilt Agility USA WAO Team Next Episode:  To be released 3/3/2017, featuring Nancy Gagliardi Little. TRANSCRIPTION: Melissa Breau: This is Melissa Breau and you're listening to the Fenzi Dog Sports podcast brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy, an online school dedicated to providing high quality instruction for competitive dog sports, using only the most current and progressive training methods. Today we'll be talking to Loretta Mueller. Loretta has been involved in agility since 2003. Loretta and her dogs are no strangers to the finals at the USDAA World Championships and she currently coaches the World Agility Organization USA Agility Team. She also runs FullTilt Agility Training in central Minnesota. Outside of the agility world, Loretta has been involved in herding, competitive obedience, rally and service dog training. Welcome to the podcast, Loretta. Loretta Mueller: Thanks for having me Melissa, I'm excited to be here. Melissa Breau: Excited to be talking to you. So, to get us started out, can you just tell us a little bit about the dogs you have now and kind of what you're working on? Loretta Mueller: Sure, yeah. I have six dogs. Their names are Clink, Gator, Lynn, Even, Crackers and Gig and I train all of them in agility. I also work the dogs on sheep, except for the terrier. Melissa Breau: And Crackers is your terrier, right? Loretta Mueller: Yes, correct. Melissa Breau: Okay. So how did you get into competitive dog sports and training? Loretta Mueller: It all started out with my first dog, Ace. He was a rescue from a no-kill shelter and he had a lot of fear issues. On top of fear issues, he also had separation anxiety and an excessive amount of energy, so I started taking some dog obedience classes with him to see if that would help with some of his behavior issues, and it did of course. After obedience, I discovered agility and pretty much never looked back. I still do obedience and I still train it a lot, but agility is my passion for sure. Melissa Breau: So in your bio on the Fenzi website, it says that you believe there's never a one size fits all method in training. Can you explain what you mean by that? Loretta Mueller: Sure, yeah. I never just go into a lesson or a seminar thinking today we're going to learn about “insert topic here.” I go with a general plan, but I let the dog dictate what we work on. I'm about the entire picture. So, to try to teach each dog and each handler in the exact same way doesn't make sense to me. There's always adjustments, sometimes to the point of trying something totally different so the team gets it. I really want to teach people to read their dogs to try to put themselves in their dog's place as much as they possibly can. There's always a reason the dog does something, and I feel it's our job to know why they're doing it, or at least to help them find the correct path. And you can't know why if you don't observe. Melissa Breau: Do you have any examples where that's kind of happened recently that you can give us or kind of talk us through? Loretta Mueller: Yeah. Just recently at a seminar I actually had a woman that was having some major issues with start line stays. The dog was breaking in trials. The dog was breaking in training and she was really frustrated because, of course, the normal does everything perfect at home, and so she came in to the seminar wanting that help, and what happened was it turned into a, what is your dog's emotional state, and are they stressed, and in this situation, the dog was definitely stressed. And so, we had to adjust all the training that she had planned for the day to work on the dog's emotional state and then by the end of the day the dog's emotional state was awesome and magically the dog was able to do a start line stay with no issues whatsoever. So, I think it's just about seeing what dog comes into the ring and you have to figure out what the main issue is and then go from there and I make sure I do that with each and every team so if you go to a seminar with me, you're going to see me do a ton of different techniques and a ton of different things for dogs. Each dog's going to be a tiny bit different or majorly different, depending on the dog. Melissa Breau: Do you kind of see that as a philosophy of how you teach and train? Loretta Mueller: For sure. Yes, definitely. It's all about the dogs in my opinion and I think that if I can get a person to understand that and to learn how to communicate with their dog, that's the number one thing I'm there to do. Once that happens, everything falls into place. Melissa Breau: So, how did that kind of come about? Like, how did you reach that conclusion that that's really how you wanted to teach and train? Loretta Mueller: I think, you know I used to do research, and so my years in research taught me that there are always things you're looking for, obviously, or expect to happen, and people are really good at that, right? They know to expect this and they know to expect that, and usually that's not the issue. It's normally those small moments that missing a tiny change in behavior or not taking into consideration the dog's emotional state that can really get you into trouble. I've never met a dog that was bad. I've only met dogs that were trying desperately to communicate with their owners. Sometimes their form of communication isn't what we want, so it's up to us to learn how to communicate with our dogs. It's hard I think for us to get into that mindset sometimes that we have to make all the changes so that the dog understands. Can dogs change? Of course they can, but they are going to communicate with us in the only way they know how, and so for us, we have to learn their language and I think once that happens it's amazing how obvious everything turns out to be. Melissa Breau: So I was doing some googling and looking up stuff and doing my research before we got on the phone, and I came across a review from one of your seminars where a student was singing your praises and she mentioned that you've a quality that's really hard to find in a trainer. She said that you were “able to work with fast dogs, motivate slow dogs, build confidence in the shy and calm the crazy.” She said that you were “equally good at handling both experienced and inexperienced trainers.” What do you think, I mean we've been talking a little bit about the idea of adapting to the dog, but especially that piece in there about both experienced and inexperienced trainers. What do you feel that you do differently that's allowed you to be so successful with a wide variety of dogs and handlers? Loretta Mueller: I think I try to not get myself so much into rules but more about guidelines. I always tell people I would be that dog that everyone doesn't want. So, I'm that environmentally sensitive dog who can stress up or down. I personally am the type of dog that if the leader doesn't know what they're doing that's going to stress me out, so, if a person's learning a front cross, things like that, people make mistakes. I only have a limited number of reps and in my opinion, what's the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result. I can be very food motivated, not always toy motivated and I can be very oppositional, so if I feel I am being forced into something, anything basically, I'll put the brakes on instantly. And if you start to get frustrated with me or I feel like you're not being fair with me, I'm done. So, that's how I train people too. I just think in terms of, I don't want to put them over their head. I want to minimize any frustration and I want to give them a good experience as far as that goes. When I'm teaching, and this is very, very important I think, is I don't have expectations of a team when they come into the ring. I don't assume that I know what the team is or what they need. I observe them for that moment in time that I'm with them and I show them the things that they need to work on or change. Again, it all starts with the dog and then goes to the human. I like to think of it as I'm observing a science experiment. I write down what the team needs in a totally non-emotional way and then I work to solve the problem. As I said before, I'm all about the dog, so people ask me all the time, how do you work with people who are not open to change, because I get that in seminars sometimes. And people are amazed, I guess that I can get people who are normally like, I don't want to do this and I don't want to do that, to change and to be honest with you, from my standpoint it's very simple. They see the dog change and they change, and so I think that that's a really important thing. Another thing for me, is it's just my experiences, so I've had so many experiences with all different types of dogs and teams and I need to make sure I thank the people that have really helped me with that and the big, big group of them was my very first set of private students, though I like to call them my island of misfit toys, and that's actually a good thing. They were all people who were ready to give up agility and they came to me and asked me for lessons. The dogs were frustrated or had behavior issues. The people were frustrated and it just wasn't fun for them. One of my examples is one of my dearest friends, she had a lab and the first lesson she put the dog on the start line and let out to cue jumps and said, okay, and the dog spent an hour chasing birds. So these students, they taught me so much, and their dogs taught me so much and I wouldn't be here without them, you know. I'm still giving lessons to all of them 13 years later with their newer dogs and just seeing that type of evolution. I'm all about what the dogs have to teach me. So, every dog I've had has taught me something. I've had the range of dogs. People always say, oh border collies are all the same, and you know, I've had one really good border collie that was a nice mix of high drive, but totally could control herself. She was great between training and trialing. She didn't change. The rest of my dogs I've had a range, so some of them are scared. They were unmotivated. Some of them were over threshold, losing their brain, and each one of my dogs has also taught me so much in my opinion. They really are the best teachers. They're super consistent and we can learn a lot from them if we just choose to listen. Melissa Breau: So, kind of talking a little more about your dogs, and switching gears at the same time, I guess, Denise mentioned that you have, what she considered, a different approach to raising puppies, at least those first couple weeks and months after you bring them home. Can you talk a little bit about that? Loretta Mueller: Yeah, I can. I thought she'd maybe do that. So, this doesn't sell books or DVDs, but when I get a puppy home, I don't normally do what everybody else does. I don't instantly start training them. I observe. So, I'm sure you noticed that the word observation comes up a lot in this interview, but I observe my puppies, and yes, I do some playing, so like normally, with or without toys, and I get them out. But I do a lot of watching and I write down things, and what that allows me to do is, it allows me to get a baseline for this puppy so I know what the ins and outs of the puppy are. I believe with each training session you're changing the dog and one must always realize that when they're training, so I think it's so important to know exactly what you have. What's the base model so to speak? Are they timid? Are they bold? Do they problem solve well? Do they get frustrated easily? All those things come into play when I work on how I want to train that specific dog. And the only way you can get a totally sterile idea of what the puppy is, is just to observe them those first few weeks. It's really quite fascinating and you'll learn so much about your puppy. It's not that you're just letting them do whatever they want, but a lot of trick training and stuff like that, I just don't do the first few weeks just so I can really get an idea of what kind of puppy I actually have. Melissa Breau: Is there anything specific you look for in a puppy that you're trying to validate or not validate, or what have you? Loretta Mueller: You know, people always ask me if I want doers or thinkers, and personally I'm okay either way. It doesn't really bother me. What I'm looking for usually in a puppy is I want to see that they're taking on the world, they can be cautious if they want, but that they bounce back. I want to see a puppy that's curious, but the one that just throws himself into situations, I don't necessarily care about that positively or negatively. But I just want a puppy that's going to bounce back from things. That's to me the biggest thing because the bottom line is, for me in competitive sports, you can have the most amazingly structured dog and the dog can move just perfect, but if they can't handle noise, if they can't handle flags flapping in the wind, people behind them, things like that, it doesn't matter how well they move. All that matters is that they can't compete if they're like that or they're going to be a challenge to compete. So, that's really what I'm looking for and if I get a puppy that's not quite how I want it, the nice thing is I can get a good sense for where they're at and then from there I can design some training whether I'm building confidence or building some control into the training and things like that. So, it's a really good place to start and get a great idea before you start training something you may or may not have wanted in a dog. Melissa Breau: So after this first couple of weeks of observing their behavior and kind of getting to know them, do you mind just telling us a little bit about how you approach this first steps of building a relationship and socialization and what training you do do with a young dog or a puppy? Loretta Mueller: Sure, yeah. If you would compare how I used to train versus how I'm training now, it's really changed a lot. I could say with each dog I've gotten, it's taught me so much about this. I guess for me it's all about in the beginning just being there which I know probably sounds kind of weird. But just the act of being with the puppy is so much more important than teaching tricks. Now, I have no problem with teaching tricks. I love teaching tricks. I'm going to usually start with basic tricks like wave and things like that. I think it's a great way to get your dog's brain worked and teaching them to be resilient and keep trying, but honestly it cannot be a replacement for just being with your dog. But I'm going to work on…you know I have a dog with a lot of motion sensitivity. Obviously, they're all herding bred border collies, and so I'm going to work on a lot of motion desensitization as far as look at me games and getting them to redirect automatically, and that's the first thing I teach all of my puppies is, they see something they want, they immediately look to me. And that's the foundation obviously for recalls and it's the foundation for attention and things like that, and I'm going to be working on that the entire time they're growing up because it's really important that my dogs don't look at a jogger and say, ‘oh, great. Taking off now, thank you very much.' I don't want that, and so that's going to be a big one. But as far as tricks, whatever you want to teach your dog. If you're playing with your dog, I'm happy. But for me, a lot of times what I see with my students, is they have a working relationship, which is great. That's what you want to build, but sometimes I see some of it lacking in the actual just relationship of being with a puppy. A good example of this is my youngest border collie, Gig. She's two now, but when she was six months old, she tore a muscle in her shoulder after a freak accident where her leg got caught in a metal crate, and I had nothing to do with her. Yeah, it was tough you know. A six-month-old very high drive border collie puppy and I didn't have much I could do with her. If you're familiar with shoulders, they're just really a pain in the rear end to have to rehab, and the only things I really had that I could do with her was, I could be in an ex pen with her and just kind of sit with her, pet her. I could nap with her… which, she didn't sleep much, and I could do some little tiny playing, like I call it bitey face. You know, where the puppy kind of bites at your hand type of thing, and that was it. I couldn't teach her anything, and it kind of broke my heart when this happened, obviously because it happened, but also because this puppy was by far my most independent dog that I've ever raised. She was an eight-week-old puppy and she would just run away. So when I put her down, I'm thinking eight-week-old puppies they come with me, yay, right? Nope, gone. See ya. Bye-bye. And so I spent months going, this is going to be horrible when I get this puppy out of an ex pen, when I can put her on a leash and take her for leash walks, because all I had was just the act of being with her. That's it, and without tricks and training could we bond, and the bottom line is, yeah. She's the most bonded dog I have, and so just being there in the moment with puppies, no expectations, I think is key to having great relationship and building a foundation for all the tricks, training and things like that that you want to do. Socialization is also key, right, but then again, I'm just there. I don't force the dogs to interact with the environment. It's just kind of one of those, here you go puppy, we're at the park. What do you think? Take them. Let them take it all in. No expectations, and you know when I'm doing training, as far as the actual skill sets, like I mentioned before, there are doers and there are thinkers. The doers just like to go, and then the thinkers are always trying to analyze stuff, and I like to take my training and make the doers more into thinkers and vice versa. I do a lot of drive training with my dogs and what that does is for the dogs that are thinkers it makes them more into a doer and they grab at the toy and I say kind of go a little feral for a while and get that drive up, and then the doers have to put a little bit more control, control their drive and I think that that works great with all of them. And everything's going to be tailored using that information that I gathered in the first few weeks of having that puppy. I know what I have. I can start my training program adjusted for each puppy. Of course I have general guidelines, so dogs all need to start line sync, but how I get to that finished product isn't the same for each dog, and then also when they're young, I'm not much of a record keeper. I kind of have tendency to not do that, because if I put things down in a record, what happens is my type A personality says, okay, in this session you must do dumbbell retrieves. But the problem is, sometimes the dog changes the program and you have to adjust. So, I tend to not write down plans for stuff, but I will, for my young dogs and I do have a book for each one of my dogs the first two years of their life, I reevaluate my dog each month. So, I treat it just as if I was evaluating a new student's dog. So, dogs change constantly and they should, because you're training them, and so I want to make sure that, for example, the timid dog that I had at eight weeks has not gotten more timid, or I need to definitely change something. And if I had a high drive dog, let's say that I put too much control on, so the dog won't do anything on its own, then I will adjust my training to get them to party a bit more, and it's all about that balancing act. Dog training's definitely an art in many situations and so it's nice to be able to look back and then be able to somewhat predict or change things to make sure I'm progressing in a way that takes me where I want the dogs to go. Melissa Breau: Now when you say you evaluate them each month, do you have a specific way that you do that? Or do you just kind of reflect on what you've done or reflect on how they've been the last couple of training sessions, or what's your process there? Because that's really interesting. Loretta Mueller: Yeah, so what I do is I kind of go through a series of little situations. So for example, I'm going to write down the dog's weaknesses, and what I do when I'm doing this, is I don't read the previous month, because I believe that it kind of will make you change things. So, I just say, what is the dog I have right now today? If a student brought this dog in, what would I say about it? So, what are the dog's weaknesses, whether it's a skill set or something like that? What are the dog's strengths? What do they know? What do they not know? And resiliency. So, does the dog bounce back? Does it care if there's a mistake made? Things like that. I work pressure work with my dogs so people behind my dogs to prepare them for trialing, and I always take note of how the dog's handling it. Do they care about the pressure this month? Do they not? At what point does that bubble happen where the person invades their pressure and they don't like it? Things like that. So, I'm looking at those skills. Delay of reward. Are the dogs able to work through that as far as you not having any treats or toys on you, because that's something you definitely have to work on before you start trialing, and things like that. So, I'm looking at individual skill sets, but also just the overall picture of, is the dog in drive? Are they staying in drive? Are they emotionally happy, and are they resilient and bouncing back? And if I see anything that doesn't make sense or when I look back the previous month, that I noticed that they did something where they kind of backslid a little bit, then I'm going to adjust things. I just started working on that actually with my young dog, Gig, who has suddenly started, when the weave poles are in situation, she will, instead of going to the weave pole, she will come back and try to redirect to me and usually it's my sweatshirt, which is not an appropriate behavior and she wasn't doing it a month ago, and now she's doing it now. And so, I'm in the process of saying, okay that's a big change. I have to figure out how to make that better and for her, it was just mainly an over threshold thing. So, we're working on different levels of threshold and she's getting it. So next month, I'm probably going to have another thing, right, because dog's just continuously change things, and that's a big thing I always think of in terms of, is instinctive drift, right? We're always training against instinctive drift, so weave poles. Dog's don't weave stuff in nature, ever, and weave poles break. Stopped contacts break. Why? Dog's don't run down hills and slam into a sit or a down. They just don't do it, and so usually those are the things that are going to break. Those are the things that are going to show up most often in those journals, is okay, the weaves are bad this week or the A-frame contact was bad, and normally it's not necessarily jumping or handling or tunnels. Usually tunnels don't break, but it's just those behaviors that the dogs really have to go against what they instinctively know and do naturally that have a tendency to kind of break down and so you're going to see those. But if I see an emotional thing in looking through stuff, what I'm going to immediately do, is I'm going to say, okay there's an emotional aspect to all of this. Everything else stops, and I must deal with that. And so it's just, those are things I've encountered and it's just really good. Because I think a lot of people…you know I see people that come to seminars and they say, my dog is a bar knocker or my dog is stressy, and a lot of times I'll end up asking them, well the dog I see is not stressy, so when was this dog stressy? And you know when they actually…you'll see them kind of sit and think, and they'll go well, like when he was six months old he was stressy. Okay, well he's changed since then, right? And so it's a nice way for us as trainers to be able to let go of stuff, because we have a tendency of holding on to things way longer than the dogs do, and the dogs are just like, you know, I know I was sensitive six months ago. But I'm not now. I'm good. I'm cool. And so then you can train that dog, which could be a totally different dog. I look at my dog Lynn. As a young dog, she was an analytical…she reminded me of Sheldon off Big Bang Theory. Super analytical, super thinky, didn't like to try a lot, it was  tough. She was sensitive, and now whenever anything goes wrong, very vocal and it is completely my fault. All of it, and I like that. I want a dog to respond to me and say, you know what, you caused all of this. Especially a dog like her who was the type that would just lay down and go, I'm not going to do anything I'm just going to lay here because I don't know what's going to happen. And so you know, she's not at all the same dog, and so it's just neat to go back and be able to see that, and then the nice thing about having all those journals is, you get another puppy and you can compare and say, okay, so my Clink dog who had over threshold issues, is growing up a lot like my current young dog, Gig, who also has over threshold issues, and I can actually take those two journals and compare them and I see a ton of similarities. So, it's a nice way to predict a lot of times what you're going to have and then you can kind of copy some training along with it. Melissa Breau: And it gives you a sense of whether what you're doing works or doesn't work and… Loretta Mueller: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Normally I tell people if you're going to try something different with a method or whatever, give it two weeks. See what you have. See what's happening. If you have some little steps forward, that's great. Don't expect something huge. If you get something huge, awesome, but if you notice steps back then it's time to reevaluate and to say, okay, this isn't working and most of the time we get so stuck in patterns of working on usually our strengths, because we want to make ourselves feel better, that we have a tendency to lose some of that stuff and so this just kind of keeps you on track and keeps you honest about what you really should be working on with the dogs. Melissa Breau: And you mentioned, and I just think this is important so I want to emphasize it, kind of the idea that sometimes we get stuck on labels for our dogs that no longer apply to them, and so we continue training a dog that's no longer the dog in front of us. I just think that's so poignant and crucial for people to understand that they need to actually look at their dog for who they are today and not be judging the dog they had six months or a year ago or when they were six months old. Loretta Mueller: Exactly, and it's hard for us, because we get wrapped up in this emotionally and we have such a great emotional connection with these dogs that we just, yeah, we get stuck sometimes. I'd be the first person to say that I've gotten stuck on a couple dogs and it just…it's hard for us to let go of it. Meanwhile, the dogs are changing, but at the same time they're getting treated the same. If you think about when you were five years old versus now, you're definitely not even remotely the same person you were probably at five and you had a foundation temperament, but in general you've changed a lot and so I think it's just really important, because that's what I see a lot of. When I do just problem solving seminars or stress seminars, especially, I see people that come in and they are already stressed about something that hasn't happened yet, and then of course that feeds down to the dogs and then that makes them stressed. I think that dogs in general, they're either affected by their environment or they're not, and so if the person's stressed and the dog is the type that gets affected by the environment, then you're going to have a dog that's going to react differently. And if you can just stop and say, you know what, your dog is not this stressy dog anymore. It's amazing when you change the person how much different the dog changes and it's very cool to see the dog go, ah, okay. This is good, and then the confidence comes out, and I've had my share of not confident dogs. I've had my share of scared dogs. My ten-year-old dog, Gator, who's been to finals many, many times, doesn't like people, and doesn't like cameras and that's what happens in the finals and he runs and he's a good boy and life is good, but that's due to training and due to trust and the fact of the matter is, now that he's ten, he doesn't care about anything. But as a young dog, when he was 18 months old, he cared about everything and all things were horrible and children were bad and now, he'll play tennis if someone wants to hit a tennis ball or whatever, he'll play with a kid. He doesn't care, and so it was up to me to say, okay, Gator, you know what? He's just pretty normal now, and so it's easy to get stuck there and so it's just that book…like I said I only do it the first two years. In reality, I probably should do it a lot more and a lot longer, but it just gives you the ability to say, for most people, wow, you know. We've really come a long way, and I think that's really important for people to be able to see that. Melissa Breau: Yeah. I feel like that's definitely a lesson I've been gradually absorbing. My shepherd can sometimes get awful environmentally sensitive and barky and all that other stuff and we've done a lot of work on it and she's come a long way and it took me a while to actually realize how far she'd come and realize I didn't have to be quite so nervous all the time. Loretta Mueller: Exactly, yeah. Melissa Breau: I wanted to kind of round things out by saying three final short questions that I've asked everybody so far that's come on the podcast. So the first one is what dog related accomplishment are you proudest of? Loretta Mueller: Wow. There's so many. I have a lot of moments with my dogs and my student's dogs. It's really hard to pick sometimes. I would say probably getting a silver medal at the USDAA Cynosports World Championships with Clink. She's my 11-year-old. She was the dog that at six months I was told would not make a good agility dog because she was so over threshold. She screamed every single moment on course. Every photo I have her mouth is wide open, slobber everywhere, and she was the dog that I would have called the bar knocker. And you know, I have a story about Clink that I always tell people, especially when they're struggling, and it was during one of my runs at a regional after I was a little frustrated with her because she'd been knocking a lot of bars. I bent down, right before the run, and I kissed her on the forehead, which I didn't normally do, and I felt her whole body relax, and she went on and ran and got a silver medal, and I realized at that moment that she was not a bar knocker. She was a dog that was really anxious and really, really wanted to please me, and as long as she knew that she was fine. And so overnight at a regional my entire thought process changed about her and I went from thinking she was a tough dog and a dog that didn't always listen, to a dog that just really kind of had a Dennis the Menace, right? I'll fix it, I'll fix it, and do it faster and I learned a lot from her. So, for her to be able to get on the podium at the World Championships USDAA and get a silver medal was just, to me, an amazing thing, because I already knew she was awesome. But then the whole world got to see just how cool she was, and so for her that was huge and for me as a trainer and then also just as my relationship with her for sure. Melissa Breau: That's an awesome story. I like that. Loretta Mueller: Thank you. Melissa Breau: So, our second to the end, I guess, question. Is what is the best piece of training advice that you've ever heard? Loretta Mueller: I've gotten to work with so many amazing people in obedience and herding and agility, and I guess, I don't know what everybody else has said, but to me, one of my most cherished and amazing statements that I've heard was from Ray Hunt, who was a horse trainer and he said, you must realize the slightest change and the smallest try, and so meaning, reward the effort. Acknowledge that the animal is trying and if you choose to recognize that smallest try or slightest change, that's what makes or breaks your training. And if you don't notice that small change in the dogs, then they do one of two things. They either give up, or they get harder, and they say, you know what? I tried. You didn't acknowledge it, therefore, meh, I'm good. And for me, if you ever owned a dog like that, they do that. They just go, eh whatever. I'm going to keep doing my thing. And so for me it was huge, because we get so stuck in a world of criteria, right? Criteria, criteria. Did they meet criteria? When in reality, when you think about it, it doesn't matter how much training your dog has. It doesn't matter if their weave poles are spotless, right? It doesn't matter any of that stuff. If your dog is in the wrong emotional state, that training will never show. So, what they're doing, is a lot of the dogs, they are trying so hard, but then they don't get rewarded and then that causes a lot of issues. So, that's why I always have kind of a graduated reward system that I do with my dogs. So, I'll use either lower value, higher value treats. To differentiate, I'll choose the way I play with the dog, and that way these dogs always get rewarded for that effort and I acknowledge those small changes in their behavior and I don't ask for too much too soon and I think that that keeps the dogs confident, it keeps them feeling like they're a champion, because that's very important if you want a dog to be confident and feel like they can conquer the world, you have to tell them that they can conquer the world. So, if they give you the smallest change, then you reward it and you have a dog that's going to try even harder the next time, and so for me that totally changed a lot of my training. Because before, an example would be if my dog didn't do six weave poles and let's say they were in a novice trial and they were baby dogs. I would be frustrated. And if they continuously did it, before I got this little nugget of information, I would go home and say okay my dog has a weave pole issue and I'm going to go train the weave. But in reality, is it a weave pole issue, or is it the fact that the dog's not emotionally right? Most likely it's because the dog's not emotionally right. So you actually have to deal with that. So what does that involve? It might involve the dog doing three weave poles and you clapping and having a party and leaving. But that's not to criteria. And so for me, it was just a huge eye opener that the dogs know how to do these skills. It's just we have to have them in the right emotional state so they can actually perform the behaviors that they've been taught. And that's just to me a cornerstone of what I think of when I'm training. So, it's just been huge for me to have that statement and understand that and apply it to all of my training. Melissa Breau: I think that's one of my favorite questions in the whole podcast because we always get such great responses. Totally different and fantastic, so thank you for that. Loretta Mueller: Cool. Yeah. Melissa Breau: And the last one is, who is someone else in the dog world that you look up to? Loretta Mueller: Again, I've had chances to work with so many people and I'm probably going to go outside of the box here, but for me it's going to be in the herding world. My mentor has been Kathy Knox, who's a border collie enthusiast and herding and sheep trials. She's the first person to really get into my head that there's always a reason the dog does something, and I think that's really important to understand, because we have a tendency to say, well they didn't do this and they didn't do that. But in reality, we should say, what are they doing? Because they're obviously doing something that you don't want them to do, so we have a focus on that and so there's always a reason they're doing stuff and for me, before I met Kathy, it was just like, do the thing that I tell you to do, right? And then it changed from there, and a lot of my students, I always tell them, if you can go to a natural clinician in the herding world, so somebody that just uses the dog and just uses the sheep, so no harnesses or ropes or anything like that, they are the most, in my opinion, talented clicker trainers you will ever witness. Their timing is amazing. They understand exactly how and when to reward and their placement of reward, it's not based on where they can put it, right? You can't just tell the sheep go over here to point B. They have to know at that exact moment when the sheep are right and what to do instantly to help the dog, or to reward the dog. And so, I always think in terms of, can you imagine if your reward had a mind of its own. Like trying to train a terrier with a live squirrel would be an analogy that would be quite fitting. And so, these people they have this amazing ability to teach these dogs using extremely high value reward that is instinctive that is bred into them and they can get these dogs to totally understand what behaviors they want and use that reward and their timing, and they're just, a good clinician. They're going to do just what I do when I go to a seminar. They're going to look at the dog. They're going to read the dog. They're going to figure out what the dog needs, and again, you change the dog, you change the person, and it's just an amazing thing and I think for me that's where the passion comes into play. It's just to see where…I always joke that it's like the dogs are sitting there trying to decipher things because dogs in agility read motion first and then they read verbal second. So verbals are a second language to them, and so they hear human, human, human, human, dog. So a person suddenly does something that they go, oh my gosh, right? So, if you've ever watched a movie that's been in a language you don't know and all of a sudden they say one word that you do know, it's like this sudden understanding. Wow. Oh, I get this. This is what you want. And so for me, that's the key is, I don't want to present the dogs with questions as far as handling goes. I want to present them only with answers so they say, okay, I've got this. There's no thinking required, and to me that's an important part of it and you can't present the dogs with answers in quite the best way possible if you don't understand what language the dogs are speaking. So suddenly, you start speaking dog, and these dogs just go, oh my goodness, thank you. And I see it every single weekend I teach. The dogs just changing and then the people change. I have people come in that you can tell they're ready to quit agility. You can tell that if this dog doesn't do something that's going to give them a little bit of hope, they're going to quit. And people always say, don't you get frustrated with that with people that are, you know? No, I don't get frustrated with them and the reason why is they just, they're at their wits end. They don't know what else to do. They're lost and they've tried everything. People have told them a big menagerie of what to do and none of it's worked. But a lot of times it's because people tell you to do stuff based on what? Human. And I'm trying to convey to people, learn dog, and it's so much easier. Everything becomes so much easier. Then these people do something, and usually it's a minor thing, like don't bend over, or make eye contact, or look at the right place, or use your hand this way, and you see the people who go into a situation and they're very worried and frustrated and you can see all of it just melt away. And it's just such a fascinating thing for me as an instructor to be able to help people on that level, and we're not talking just backyard enthusiasts or weekend warriors. We're talking world team people. It's all the same. It's these little things usually that cause the issues, and so for me, I've learned from herding clinicians and people like Kathy Knox and Ray Hunt that those little moments are the ones that really matter. Those are the moments where trust is built. Those are the moments that really open up that light for the dog to understand exactly what you want from them. And then, from there, all those little moments build up into a fully trained dog and so we have to concentrate on those tiny moments in time and we have to observe and pay attention so that we can get to where we want to go. Melissa Breau: Gee, that makes me kind of want to go see a herding seminar. Loretta Mueller: They're pretty cool. I'm telling you, it's pretty awesome. Melissa Breau: All right. Well thank you so much for joining me Loretta and thank you to our audience for tuning in. We'll be back in two weeks with a retired obedience judge, Nancy Gagliardi Little to talk about dog sports from a judge's perspective. If you haven't already, subscribe now on iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. CREDITS: Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty-free by BenSound.com; the track featured here is called “Buddy.” Audio editing provided by Chris Lang and transcription written by CLK Transcription Services. Thanks again for tuning in -- and happy training!

Legacy of Legends Carolyn Hunt & Buck Brannaman The Legacy of Legends, a tribute to the horsemanship principles of Ray Hunt and Tom Dorrance is happening March 3rd, 4th, and 5th, 2017 at the Will Rogers Memorial Center in Fort Worth.  The Legacy of Legends was co-founded by Ray’s wife Carolyn and Buck Brannaman. According to an article in Western Horseman, Ray Hunt knew a lot about horses and was a pretty good cowhand by the time he was 30 years old.  As a consequence, he started colts, shod horses, and day-worked ranches in the Hollister, CA area.  But then a horse entered his life that opened his eyes to a new way of thinking. The horse, a 4-year-old gelding named Hondo, had a bucking problem.  Ray was quoted in the magazine article with his dry sense of humor, "I wanted to show him in a hackamore class,” he said, “but about the time I turned a cow down the fence, I'd come back in the saddle bronc event, and you can't show a horse in two events at the same time.  All I knew to fix the problem was what the cowboys said - just get a bigger club.”

Anyone who has gone to any of my horse expos knows I love to reference my personal heroes while I work. It’s because I’ve learned a great deal from these horsemen, and some of their wisdom has taken a lot of time for me to digest and understand properly. This week’s episode revolves around an encounter I had years ago with one of my heroes, Ray Hunt, and the lesson he taught me. After unexpectedly helping out at one of Ray’s expos he invited me over for supper that night. It was a quiet meal of the most part, and I felt just a little disappointed that we didn’t strike up an in-depth conversation. But at some point, Ray took a bite of steak and pointed his fork at me. He said, “You know Van, the horse is always right.” This brought to my mind the old cliche of “the customer is always right”. But Ray went on to explain just a little bit more. He said the horse is always right because he’s doing what comes natural to him, or he’s doing what he thinks you want him to do. Either way, the horse is always right. I had a long drive home the next day and couldn’t stop thinking about what Ray had said. Over time I started to realize that it was completely true, and there are many lessons that can be learned when you fully understand the concept. Key Takeaways Horses don’t harbor any ill intent. They want to be efficient as possible, and for the most part, quiet and still. Keep this in mind when you are communicating with your animal. Remember, the horse isn’t doing what it thinks you want it to do to please you - the horse is performing a behavior so you will end up leaving it alone to let it relax. Train from the horse's perspective. A horse’s survival instinct is going to tell him one of two things when humans are around; either protect himself and get away or stay and get along. So anytime you want to point a finger at your horse when they do something wrong, you should really be pointing it at yourself. It’s your job to understand your horse’s nature and communicate accordingly. Observe horses objectively. They are animals that live in the moment, even though they do develop habits and behaviors. But listening to what a neighbor or someone else tells you about a horse will rarely help you much. Horses don’t write down their history and reflect upon it. Be in the moment with them, watch their body language, and see what they are telling you in the here and now. Be careful when asking for more from your horse. As you move forward in training your requests of the horse will grow more specific and demanding. You need to do this gradually. By learning your horse’s body language you can see their words coming back to you about the request you make of them. Communication is a 2-way street, and you need to be able to listen to your horse just as well as you can ask things of them.

Cowboy poet, Waddie Mitchell talks about his early days as a working cowboy, attending the very first Ray Hunt clinic, and reads a brand new poem.

Alison Armstrong is an author, an educator, and the creator of the widely acclaimed "Queen’s Code" workshop series, that asks the question: "What if no one is misbehaving -- including you?" She explores the good reasons behind the behavior of men and women such as fundamental differences in the ways we think, act and communicate. She offers simple, partnership-based, solutions to improve our communication and intimacy by honoring ourselves and others. Alison is known for her insight, sense of humor and ability to articulate the human experience and predicament of gender. Alison, take a minute to fill in any blanks from the intro & give us a glimpse into your personal life. Guiding Principle, Quote or Mantra “Be as gentle as you can and as hard as you need.” - Ray Hunt - one of fathers of natural horsemanship The “DUH” moment that changed your partnerships forever She has a “DUH” moment every three weeks or so.  This is one of them. Alison shares a moment that was both a “DUH” and an “Uh Oh” at the same time. This is when she recognized that what she used to call a man’s “breaking point” is actually his “breaking through point.”  This is a real eye opener for both women and men. What are some of the stereotypes say we’re supposed to provide in partnership and what am I hoping you’ll let me do for you? [spp-tweet tweet="How sweet could we be to each other?"] Proudest moment in partnership When she realized that her husband is not built to drive away from her. And then she did the most loving thing anyone had ever done for him. And it was hard because as Alison says - “The partnership thing to do is rarely the easiest or most comfortable thing to do.” What is the best partnership / relationship advice you have ever received? We think missing another person is an expression of love. What if missing another person is an expression of not being in the present? Being apart from someone you love does not mean you have to be less of who you are when you’re apart.   We have to take care of who we are individually, so when we are alone, we’re empowered. Best Partnership Book Alison admitted that she does not go to books for this information. She has somewhere else she goes that serves her best.  But if you are a book person, I personally recommend all of Alison’s books (http://www.understandmen.com/products/books/?SSAID=449360) (http://www.understandmen.com/products/books/?SSAID=449360)   Payoffs of Partnership - We don’t know what we are appreciated for because we don’t talk about it. Being appreciated requires a partner. Interview Links - www.understandmen.com (http://www.understandmen.com/?SSAID=449360) Alison’s Facebook Page (https://www.facebook.com/understandmen/?fref=ts) (https://speakingofpartnership.com/019-alison-armstrong/)