Podcast appearances and mentions of Chris Lang

Also available on YouTube "It was a mind and body brokenness. I'll just say like depression." By 39, Chris Lang was running 10 businesses and falling apart. He killed most of them and bet everything on Fresh Chile, his bootstrapped Shopify chili brand from Hatch, New Mexico. It cracked the top 1% of Shopify and 8 figures in revenue, but didn't turn a profit until Q1 of year six. Inside: why he started publishing his real ROAS on LinkedIn when the numbers were ugly, the 80% Meta cut that finally flipped him profitable, and how a 250K-follower organic community out-engages Heinz, Tabasco, and Sriracha combined. SPONSORS Swym — Wishlists, back-in-stock alerts, and moregetswym.com/kurt Ecommerce Alley — Is it your ads, or is Meta having a bad day? Check it atecommercealley.com/bad Zipify — Build high-converting sales funnelszipify.com/KURT LINKS Fresh Chile: https://freshchileco.com/ Chris Lang on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrislangsocial/ Chris Lang on X: https://x.com/chrislangsocial WORK WITH KURT Apply for Shopify Help ethercycle.com/apply See Our Results ethercycle.com/work Free Newsletter kurtelster.com The Unofficial Shopify Podcast is hosted by Kurt Elster and explores the stories behind successful Shopify stores. Get actionable insights, practical strategies, and proven tactics from entrepreneurs who've built thriving ecommerce businesses.

Some win by Verbici tonight in the Steel Supplies Nutrien Equine - Standardbred 2YO Trot at Riverina Paceway . I caught up with a very happy Chris Lang after the victory.

School Marketing Journal with Brad Entwistle, Pauline Shuttleworth and Chris Lang In this interview episode, Brad is joined by Pauline Shuttleworth, imageseven Advancement Specialist, and Chris Lang, co-founder and Head of Sales for Asia Pacific at Digistorm, to examine the changing enrolment landscape for independent schools. Using the findings from Digistorm's 2025/26 State of K–12 School Admissions Report, they discuss how softening demand and growing enrolment pressure are shifting admissions from reactive management to data-informed planning. This requires Heads to sharpen their positioning and take a more intentional approach to the parent journey. Episode link: State of Admissions 2025/26 - Digistorm Insights Get in touch at smj@imageseven.com.au

Show SummaryOn this episode, we have a conversation with Michelle Lang, co-founder of Operation Honor Rural Salute, about the unique challenges and strengths of veterans living in rural communities. We explore how her work is bridging gaps in access by bringing resources directly to veterans in ways that feel local, familiar, and grounded in community.Provide FeedbackAs a dedicated member of the audience, we would like to hear from you. If you PsychArmor has helped you learn, grow, and support those who've served and those who care for them, we would appreciate hearing your story. Please follow this link to share how PsychArmor has helped you in your service journey Share PsychArmor StoriesAbout Today's GuestMichelle and Chris Lang are the co-founders of Operation Honor Rural Salute. Chris is an Army veteran. Michelle is his wife—and a fierce advocate, caregiver, and bridge-builder.​When they returned to rural Pennsylvania, they expected the transition to be hard. But they didn't expect to feel so alone in it. No local VA. No one who understood the weight of invisible wounds. No roadmap forward. Just a couple doing their best to hold it all together. So they did what most veterans do: they figured it out themselves. And then, they built a way forward for others, too.Their story became the heartbeat of Operation Honor: Rural Salute™—a movement built by veterans for veterans who live beyond the reach of most resources.Links Mentioned During the EpisodeOperation Honor Rural Salute WebsitePsychArmor Resource of the WeekThis week's PsychArmor Resource of the week is the PsychArmor course, Networking for Military Spouses. This course will help you define what networking means, demonstrate ways to incorporate social media into your networking task, and list tips for better networking results.You can find the resource here:  https://learn.psycharmor.org/courses/caregiving-in-a-rural-setting Episode Partner: Are you an organization that engages with or supports the military affiliated community? Would you like to partner with an engaged and dynamic audience of like-minded professionals? Reach out to Inquire about Partnership Opportunities Contact Us and Join Us on Social Media Email PsychArmorPsychArmor on XPsychArmor on FacebookPsychArmor on YouTubePsychArmor on LinkedInPsychArmor on InstagramTheme MusicOur theme music Don't Kill the Messenger was written and performed by Navy Veteran Jerry Maniscalco, in cooperation with Operation Encore, a non profit committed to supporting singer/songwriter and musicians across the military and Veteran communities.Producer and Host Duane France is a retired Army Noncommissioned Officer, combat veteran, and clinical mental health counselor for service members, veterans, and their families.  You can find more about the work that he is doing at www.veteranmentalhealth.com  

We leave Ho Chi Minh City behind and head south into the Mekong Delta—where life slows to the rhythm of the river, roads give way to waterways, and every stop is filled with unforgettable food and genuinely kind people. In Can Tho, we explore tiny ferries, dirt paths, and a peaceful homestay surrounded by water and jungle. Then it's off to explore fish farms, island villages, and a truly bizarre fish massage experience. And just when you think the day couldn't get more unexpected… we stumble upon one of the most unbelievable traditional food processes I've ever seen: puffed rice made with a literal explosion. Musical Credits:Quiet Girl by Name Percentage PRO, Julie Carpenter, Eric Cunningham and Chris Lang was provided by Slipstream Music.We'Re In Limbo Now by  The Benign One Ones was provided by Slipstream Music.Over the Water, Humans Gather by Doctor Turtle is licensed under a Attribution 4.0 International License.Support the showWant to support the podcast? Go to Laura's Patreon site to see photos from the episode, maps of places she talks about and you can become a patron too!Follow the show on instagram or facebook.Buy any of these products that I fully stand behind- and I'll earn a commission.Buy cute sustainable bags at: https://torrain.org/   Use Promo code: TRAVELALONG to get 15% off.  Buy matcha at: https://mantramatcha.com/  Use Promo code: TRAVELALONG to get 15% off.  Buy sustainably produced coffee:  https://www.afueracoffee.com/  Enter promo code: TRAVELALONG for 15% off.  Flowers by Cedric Galke x Fachhochschule Dortmund is licensed under a Attribution 4.0 International License.

Mobile Rolling-Chris Barsby has the latest Harness news with Matt Young, Chris Alford, David Miles, Chris Lang and Darren Clayton.

Chris Lang was on the phone to his girlfriend as she headed to her parked car at the Columbia Mall in Grand Forks, North Dakota, one evening in 2003. They chatted about their day but then her voice trailed off. She uttered “oh my god” before the line went dead…SPONSORS -Grow Therapy: Grow makes it easy to find a therapist that fits you, not the other way around. Get stated at: https://growtherapy.com/morbidologyNutrafol: Find out why Nutrafol is the best-selling hair growth supplement. Use code “MORBIDOLOGY10” for $10 off at: https://nutrafol.com/Gusto: Gusto is an online payroll and benefts software built for small businesses. Get three months free at: http://gusto.com/morbidologyBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/morbidology--3527306/support.

When most brands struggle to break through the noise online, Chris Lang and Fresh Chili Company cracked the code by doing something radically different: they started with story, not sales. In this episode, discover how a small New Mexico chili company became a top 1% Shopify store with explosive 85% year-over-year growth, a 4.96% conversion rate, and 3.74% ROAS—all while building an engaged community that devours their content faster than NBA games get views.Chris reveals the exact strategies behind their meteoric rise, from leveraging organic social as a testing ground for paid ads to creating "addictive" content that turns customers into brand evangelists. This isn't another generic growth story—it's a masterclass in building authentic connections that drive real business results.—Sponsored by OMG Commerce - go to (https://www.omgcommerce.com/contact) and request your FREE strategy session today!—Chapters: (00:00) Introduction to Fresh Chile Company(02:30) History of The Chili Capital of the World(07:03) Keys to Success: Storytelling & Community(11:20) Balancing Organic and Paid Strategies(16:57) Creative Content & Testing Philosophy(21:47) Building a Brand Story(24:22) Search Visibility(27:46) SEO Strategies & Content Plans(34:20) How Fresh Chile Builds Community—Connect With Brett: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/thebrettcurry/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@omgcommerce Website: https://www.omgcommerce.com/ Relevant Links:Chris' LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrislangsocial/Fresh Chile Website: https://freshchileco.com/_Past guests on eCommerce Evolution include Ezra Firestone, Steve Chou, Drew Sanocki, Jacques Spitzer, Jeremy Horowitz, Ryan Moran, Sean Frank, Andrew Youderian, Ryan McKenzie, Joseph Wilkins, Cody Wittick, Miki Agrawal, Justin Brooke, Nish Samantray, Kurt Elster, John Parkes, Chris Mercer, Rabah Rahil, Bear Handlon, JC Hite, Frederick Vallaeys, Preston Rutherford, Anthony Mink, Bill D'Allessandro, Jeff Oxford, Bryan Porter and more

Mobile Rolling-Chris Barsby gets the latest Harness news with Chris Lang, Adam Kelly, Damien Burns, Mick Stanley and Andy Gath.

Matt, Dawn and Sarah review new Sky Max travelogue Joe Lycett's United States of Birmingham, which gives Sarah the opportunity to talk eloquently about the city she loves.  Then, Unforgotten writer Chris Lang has a new mystery series on U&Alibi featuring a ton of familiar faces. There's also a sweet hidden gem in Canadian drama North of North which is now available on Netflix.

With James away this week, it's down to Boyd and Kay to take the helm and bang on about the week's big TV but in a shock move, they admit James rewatching shows he's seen thousands of times before is actually, dare we say it, a GOOD thing. More importantly, David Oyelowo is our guest, chatting all things Government Cheese (that's the title of his new Apple TV+ show, not a dietary preference), and we review Fake, an Aussie true-life drama which triggers Kay's dating experience memories, the whodunnit I, Jack Wright from Chris Lang of Unforgotten fame, and in a final twist, Boyd does a mini-spoiler special review of Doctor Who series 2, ep 2 ‘Vox' because it deserves special treatment!(Episode 333)

We have a trio of brilliant British shows for you this week as Chris Lang's Unforgotten reunites Sunny with his famous backpack for its sixth series on ITV (52:22), Jack Rooke's Big Boys gets a last hurrah as its third and final series hits Channel 4 (59:40), and Lucy Punch starring Motherland spinoff Amandaland makes its debut on BBC1 (1:07:26). Plus we take a deep dive look at this week's Next On Netflix presentation and Ben Travis gets called at home to answer for his ridiculous question. (Episode 322)Note: time stamps are approximate as the ads throw them out, so are only meant as a guide. If you want to avoid this and would like the podcast entirely ad-free (as well as 12 hours early, with a second weekly show and spoiler specials) then sign up to Pilot+ at empire.supportingcast.fm.

Sim Nagai - Music In My Heart E-40 - Things I'll Never Change Cleo Sol - Gold Terrace Martin - Hot chocolate Eric Cunningham & Chris Lang & John Tejada - Floating High Aura Safari & Jimi Tenor - Lunar Wind Janet Jackson Feat. Q-Tip & Joni Mitchell - Got 'Til It's Gone Gabor Szabo - Breezin Groove Theory - Tell Me Dowdelin - Boaty Cruisy (Ate Trak Remix) Zhane & QDIII - Hey Mr. D.J. (Remix) Maxwell - Ascension (Don't Ever Wonder) October London - Make Me Wanna Daniel Ibbotson - Coming To Get You Quiroga - The Zoist (Original Mix) Sable Blanc - epitome GeeJay - Stronger Voilaaa - Trop jeune pour ca (Dub) Lucy Pearl - Don't Mess With My Man HolyBrune & Dabeull & Rude Jude - JoyRide John Beltran - Suenos Soleados (Melodiesinfonie Remix) Midnite & Desmond Williams - The Good Life Terrace Martin - Solo Jungle - Back On 74 (Full Crate Remix) Masayoshi Takanaka - Malibu The Isley Brothers - Brother, Brother Jimpster - B_ Mine Lucy Pearl - Good Love Mortimer - Balcony Swing

Advisers Karen McLeod and Chris Lang chat with Portfolio Manager Hari Balkrishna about what areas clients can invest in through impact, how they have become investable and which clients resonate with which areas. This podcast was created through T. Rowe Price's partnership with Ensombl. T. Rowe Price Disclaimer: The podcasts are for adviser use only. They must not be made available to any person and any information in them must not be communicated to any person without the prior written consent of BT, part of the Westpac Banking Corporation. The views expressed in this webinar are those of the presenters alone unless otherwise quote, and do not reflect the views of policy of any company in the Westpac Group. The Westpac Group accepts no responsibility for the accuracy or completeness of, nor does it endorse any such opinions. To the maximum extent permitted by law, we intend by this notice to exclude liability for these opinions. The information in this podcast is provided solely as general information and it should not be considered a comprehensive statement on any matter or relied upon as such. The information provided is factual only and does not constitute financial product advice. Before acting on it, you should seek independent advice about its appropriateness to your or your clients objectives, financial situation and needs. Any projections in this webinar are predictive in character. Whilst we have used every effort to ensure that any assumptions on which any projections are based are reasonable, any projections may be affected by inaccurate assumptions or may not take into account known or unknown risks and uncertainties. The results actually achieved may differ materially from any projections herein. Past performance is not a reliable indicator of future performance. The podcast recordings are being shared with the prior written consent of our participants.

Sundons Gift will be living out his days at Living Legends and trainer Chris Lang joined Racing Pulse to pay tribute to the great horse and what he meant to him and what a big thrill it is to see him be the first harness horse at Living Legends.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In this episode, I'm thrilled to be joined by Chris Lang, the Founder of Flash Partners Limited, a company that provides in-sourced finance functions for small and medium sized companies in the marketing communications industry.  In this conversation, Chris and I explore what new founders and startups need to consider from a finance perspective and provide some tips and tricks that startups and small businesses need to consider around finance. 

In this episode of the Free to Grow CFO podcast, host Jon Blair, founder of Free to Grow CFO, engages in a deep dive into scaling a DTC brand with a profit-focused mindset alongside Chris Lang, co-founder of Fresh Chile and a client of Free to Grow CFO. Chris shares his entrepreneurial journey, from struggling to find his path through multiple universities to launching a successful creative agency and several businesses, including Fresh Chili. During their discussion, Jon and Chris explore the importance of storytelling, authenticity, and creating a brand that stands for something in today's crowded market. Additionally, they discuss some strategic aspects of running a DTC brand, such as insourcing versus outsourcing production and marketing, addressing seasonality in business, and integrating personal faith into business operations. The episode provides insightful tips for DTC brands on crafting a compelling brand story, connecting with customers authentically, and strategically navigating challenges to scale profitably.Meet Chris LangChris Lang is a creative entrepreneur from Las Cruces, New Mexico. His focus on brand development and business strategy has helped launch multiple Shopify brands across the apparel, food, and wine industries, generating over 8 figures. Fresh Chile is now in the top 10% of all Shopify stores. He is working on donating over 1,000,000 meals to his community (currently 500,000).~~~00:00 Welcome to the Free to Grow CFO Podcast01:30 Introducing Chris Lang: A Serial Entrepreneur's Journey04:46 The Power of Storytelling in Business09:20 Crafting a Compelling Brand Story for E-commerce Success14:24 Creative Strategies and Authenticity in Marketing21:26 Navigating the Creative Process: Insights and Tips27:13 Outsourcing vs. Insourcing Creative Functions in DTC Brands30:02 Unlocking Business Growth: The Importance of Knowing Your Numbers31:40 Outsourcing vs. Insourcing: Finding Your Business's Strengths33:32 Maximizing Agency Relationships: Tips for Brands35:20 Navigating the Challenges of Creative Agency Collaboration38:47 In-House Production and Fulfillment: A Deep Dive44:34 Seasonality and Scaling: Strategies for Year-Round Success51:58 Faith and Business: Integrating Core Beliefs into Your Brand56:31 Closing Thoughts

Welcome to Season 4 of the ITP. Join us for this entertaining interview with Chris Lang. His rollercoaster story starts with teaching English in Japan and threads through Oman, California, and Colombia (as well as a few other places). His candor is refreshing and informative. You will certainly laugh during this episode! You can reach out to Chris in Bucaramanga, Colombia via LinkedIn @ linkedin.com/in/chris-lang-460347b6 Isn't that a fun word to say? Bucaramanga, Bucaramanga! Here are two cohost profiles too: Gregory Lemoine JPMint Consulting

Kicking off season four of the Powered by Trans Ova Podcast! Ohio Dairy producer, Chris Lang, shares the history behind his operation and how they got to be where they are today. He also talks about the major success he has had through Trans Ova services.  Learn more about Springhill Dairy Farm at https://springhilldairyfarm.com/ 

WARNING: This episode contains spoilers for Unforgotten Season 5.  For actor Sanjeev Bhaskar and writer and creator Chris Lang, Season 5 of Unforgotten was full of new challenges and uncomfortable moments. But by the end of this season, we're left with a glimmer of hope. As Sanjeev and Chris discuss the final episode of this season, we're reminded that even in the most difficult of situations, there is always the promise of new beginnings.

WARNING: This episode contains spoilers for episode four of Season Five of Unforgotten. Unforgotten creator and writer Chris Lang knew it would take time for both audiences and characters to grieve the loss of the beloved Cassie Stuart, played by Nicola Walker, and welcome in Jessica James, played by Sinéad Keenan. In this episode, Lang reveals some of the decisions he made when crafting this transition, and why the obvious choice was to lean into the unexpected.

Today's guest is the king of British detective drama writing. Having discovered his talent for the written word whilst in a comedy troupe with a pre-movie star Hugh Grant, my guest later transitioned to drama where he has produced over 100 hours of primetime television including a multitude of hits including Innocent, which pulled in EIGHT MILLION viewers on ITV, The Thief His Wife and the Canoe which was watched by TEN million in 2022 and picked up our guest a BAFTA nomination as well as a pick of the year slot in The New York Times and of course his soon to be 6th series of record-breaking detective drama Unforgotten.Along the way, according to his IMDB at least, he also appears to have had a stint as a voice actor in the Harry Potter video game series. What can't he do?! My guest is Mr Chris Lang

Two guests join Chris Lang on this special U.S. Open preview episode. Hear from Isaac Simmons (starting at the 3:23 mark), one of two VSGA members who qualified for the championship. Michael Brennan was the other. Then, U.S. Open Championship director Charlie Howe joins (starting at the 26:05 mark). Howe discusses his path from Virginia Tech soccer player to his current role with the USGA and gives some good intel on Los Angeles Country Club, a first-time U.S. Open host.

The Club at Viniterra's Josh Speight is one of 20 PGA members of the Corebridge Financial Team competing at this week's PGA Championship at Oak Hill. Thanks to his T11 finish at the PGA National Professional Championship, Josh will get his second chance to tee it up against the world's top players in a major championship, having previously compete in 2016. Chris Lang caught up with Josh prior to the tournament to hear his thoughts on his trip to Oak Hill.

College golf in Virginia doesn't stop with the Commonwealth's Division I schools. In this episode, we chat with VSGA members Robb Kinder and Alex Price, who have helped elevate Christopher Newport University into the second-ranked Division III team in the country. The duo will participate in next week's DIII championship before heading south to Kiawah Island for the U.S. Amateur Four-Ball. Chris Lang speaks with the pair about how they got to CNU and their hopes of leading the Captains to a national championship, among other topics.

Brinson Paolini won four VSGA Amateur Championships before departing on a whirlwind professional career that took him all over the globe. He played tournament golf in 43 different countries in eight years before starting first a coaching business, and now, a business focused on the nutritional aspect of golf. Paolini chats with Chris Lang about some of his favorite VSGA memories and his new venture, Sharp Focus Nutrition, in this episode of Golf in the Commonwealth.

In wake of the USGA announcing major changes to the qualifying structure for several USGA championships starting in 2024, the USGA's senior director of championship administration, Brent Paladino, joins host Chris Lang on the pod. He discusses his time playing golf at William & Mary, the evolution of an important junior tournament he helped form, and of course, the major upcoming changes to USGA championship qualifying.

In this episode, Wendy chats with dialect coach Chris Lang about why learning accents is important. Join the Hollywood Winners Circle at HollywoodWinnersCircle.com Join Talent Managers for Actors on Facebook here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/843656639050766 Follow Wendy on Instagram: @WendyAlane1 Follow Wendy on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/TheHollywoodTalentManagerWendyAlaneWright

In this episode of Golf in the Commonwealth, Chris Lang chats with two members of the VSGA's championships department – Kent Holubar and Amanda Braun – to preview the 2023 VSGA championship season. We talk venues, players and what's new on the championship schedule in 2023.

In this episode of Golf in the Commonwealth, Chris Lang chats with U.S. Solheim Cup captain Stacy Lewis, who was in Washington earlier this week for the announcement that she'll serve a second term as U.S. captain in 2024 when the Cup is played at Robert Trent Jones Golf Club in Gainesville. Lewis shares her thoughts on both playing and captaining in the Cup and talks a little bit about her unique golf journey and her advice to young girls who want to play competitive golf.

In this episode of Golf in the Commonwealth, Chris Lang is emptying the notebook, as they say in reporter terms. To supplement the recent Virginia Golfer story on Fat Perez, listen to the full interview with the man himself, otherwise known at Nick Stubbe. Learn more about his journey into golf and how Fat Perez came to be in this interview, which was conducted in November at Keswick Golf Club.

Ellen E Jones and Mark Kermode explore the legacy of Rashomon, directed by Japanese cinematic master Akira Kurosawa. Mark examines Kurosawa's enduring screen legacy and why he is one of the most influential directors in film history. He talks to director Asif Kapadia, who is co-programmer of the BFI's upcoming Kurosawa retrospective. They discuss Kurosawa's filmography and what makes him one of the greatest directors of all time as well as Kurosawa's influence on his own work. Mark then speaks to author Kazuo Ishiguro, screenwriter of the recent film, Living, a remake of Kurosawa's 1952 film, Ikiru. They discuss how Rashomon became one of Kurosawa's and Japan's most iconic films as well as debating how successful cinema is at depicting memory. Ellen investigates the longlasting impact of Kurosawa's 1950 film on the small screen. The film inspired the term 'the Rashomon effect' which is used to describe a narrative technique where different characters offer differing opinions and perspectives on the same event. Ellen talks to TV and film critic Roxana Hadadi about how this has become a staple of television storytelling. She then speaks to Chris Lang, creator of the TV series Unforgotten, who explains how Rashomon has influenced his work and why exactly it's so well suited to the crime genre. And director and Kurosawa super fan Alex Cox tells us his favourite Kurosawa film. Producer: Tom Whalley A Prospect Street production for BBC Radio 4

In this episode of Golf in the Commonwealth, we're celebrating the scholarship recipients at VSGA Day, which was held on Monday, May 23 at Richmond Country Club. Listen in as VSGA P.J. Boatwright intern Ben Walls chats with our five named scholarship award winners. Stick around until the end to hear from VSGA Senior Four-Ball champions Buck Brittain and Jon Hurst. Chris Lang caught up with the back-to-back champs after their win on Tuesday at Washington G&CC.

In this episode of Golf in the Commonwealth, Chris Lang chats with aspiring young professional golfer Peter Gasperini. A two-time VSGA Amateur semifinalist from Halifax who played for five years at Radford University before transferring to VCU, Gasperini recently qualified for conditional status on PGA Tour Canada. He has his foot in the door, as he says, and he's ready to put in the work to make his professional dream a reality.

In this episode of Golf in the Commonwealth, Chris Lang chats with Wells Fargo Championship tournament director Gary Sobba. The event is moving just across the river from Virginia to TPC Potomac at Avenel Farms this year due the Presidents Cup being played at its usual home, Quail Hollow, later this year. After that conversation, we recap the opening tournament of the 2022 VSGA championship schedule, the 4th VSGA Multi-Format Team Championship, which wrapped up Tuesday at The Dominion Club.

It's tournament time! The VSGA championship season opens on Monday, April 11 and Golf in the Commonwealth has you covered with a full preview of the championship season. Tournament department staffers Josh Coates, Amanda Braun and Kent Holubar join host Chris Lang to discuss the high points of this year's championship schedule, with insight into some of the venues and new things players will see at championships in 2022.

Chris Lang returns to share the future of the CDB Office sector. What type of Office assets are in high demand? What are we going to do with all this vacant space? Will Office vacancy be a long term problem? All this and more.    CP DATA  www.commercialpropertydata.com.au   FACEBOOK GROUP - Commercial Property Show Community https://www.facebook.com/groups/commercialpropertyshow   The Commercial Property Show Website www.commercialpropertyshow.com.au Chris Lang FREE Investor Guide https://communique-publishing.ck.page/43ab6d5d32 Develop a Life - Commercial Property Project Management  We help owners of Commercial Property find smart ways to add value to their property.  Request a Free Consultation Today.  https://www.developalife.com.au/ FACEBOOK - @developalife INSTAGRAM - @developalife TWITTER - @developalife   HOST: Andrew Bean  Ph: 0410 694 633  Email: ab@developalife.com.au LinkedIn: http://linkedin.com/in/andrewbean28 Instagram: @andrewbean28   APPLE PODCAST LINK  https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/commercial-property-show-australia/id1500207613 PODBEAN LINK  https://andrewbean.podbean.com/ FACEBOOK GROUP  https://www.facebook.com/groups/commercialpropertyshow FACEBOOK PAGE https://www.facebook.com/commercialpropertyshow/ YOUTUBE Commercial Property Show Australia WEBSITE  www.commercialpropertyshow.com.au FOLLOW THE SHOW ON  FACEBOOK GROUP - Commercial Property Show Community  FACEBOOK PAGE - @commercialpropertyshow INSTAGRAM - @commercialpropertysho TWITTER - @compropertyshow YOUTUBE - Commercial Property Show Australia  

Learn about the application process at UCM.

On this week's episode of The Commercial Property Show, Chris Lang and Andrew do a deep drive into the Victorian Commercial Property Markets. They chat about the opportunities in the area, vacancy, the office sector apocalypse and much more.  FACEBOOK GROUP - Commercial Property Show Community  https://www.facebook.com/groups/commercialpropertyshow The Commercial Property Show Website  www.commercialpropertyshow.com.au Chris Lang      https://commercialpropertymadeeasy.com/ Develop a Life - Commercial Property Project Management  We help owners of Commercial Property find smart ways to add value to their property.  Request a Free Consultation Today.  https://www.developalife.com.au/ FACEBOOK - @developalife INSTAGRAM - @developalife TWITTER - @developalife HOST: Andrew Bean  Ph: 0410 694 633  Email: ab@developalife.com.au LinkedIn: http://linkedin.com/in/andrewbean28 Instagram: @andrewbean28 APPLE PODCAST LINK  https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/commercial-property-show-australia/id1500207613 PODBEAN LINK  https://andrewbean.podbean.com/ FACEBOOK GROUP  https://www.facebook.com/groups/commercialpropertyshow FACEBOOK PAGE https://www.facebook.com/commercialpropertyshow/ YOUTUBE Commercial Property Show Australia WEBSITE  www.commercialpropertyshow.com.au FOLLOW THE SHOW ON  FACEBOOK GROUP - Commercial Property Show Community  FACEBOOK PAGE - @commercialpropertyshow INSTAGRAM - @commercialpropertysho TWITTER - @compropertyshow YOUTUBE - Commercial Property Show Australia

Talking with Chris Lang about the details of signing up for orientation.

This episode is about the admissions process at the University of Central Missouri.

Email marketing is STILL the most powerful online marketing channel but ONLY if our emails are getting read and step 1 in that is getting them delivered... Adrian Savage is an expert in email deliverability, founder of Deliverability Dashboard and all about helping you avoid the Spam folder and win the email race to the Inbox. Including: What is ‘deliverability' - what does it mean? What's an average open rate? We're never going to get 100% of email subscribers opening so what's possible? How important your email platform is - and the one platform Adrian 'wouldn't touch with a bargepole' If our deliverability is poor, is that a good reason to move platforms? What happens if we do nothing? How long until we can expect results from our deliverability activities? TRANSCRIPT: Rob Tyson: Welcome back. This is Rob Tyson here and in the last episode, I talked to Dave Plunkett about how to run a partner program for lead generation. So do catch up on that show if you missed it, but I'm here today with Adrian Savage. Now, Adrian is an expert in email deliverability. He's the founder and the creator of Deliverability Dashboard. And he is all about helping you to avoid the spam folder and win the email race to the inbox. And this is really important because we'll talk about this but I think email marketing is still the most powerful online marketing channel but only, of course, if our emails are getting read and the first step in them getting read is them actually getting delivered. So I can't wait to pick Adrian's brains on all that. But before we welcome Adrian and get into all that good stuff, if you're listening to this show, chances are good you have professional expertise you'd like to monetize with an online business or an online component, perhaps, that breaks the time for money link. And if that's the case, I'd like to invite you. I have a free web class that's gonna explain why the ‘ascension model' or ‘value ladder' you've probably heard quite a bit about is actually a really bad approach for most people in your position, and exactly what you should do right now instead if you'd like to generate real cash flow quickly and finally get on the right track with monetizing your expertise online. So all that is free. All you need to do is pop along to robtyson.net/class for the details. That is robtyson.net/class. So as I said, I'm here with Adrian savage. Adrian, welcome. Good to see you. Adrian Savage: Hi, Rob. Thanks for inviting me. Rob: You are most welcome. And I think this is a really interesting and valuable topic for people. So what's your background briefly? How did you get into this rarefied area of email deliverability in the first place? Adrian: It has been quite a journey. I won't go all the way back to when I was 7 because that was when I became a geek because my dad bought an Apple II computer home and it was muggins here who taught him how to use it. I went down a very kind of traditional, academic, corporate career until about 9 or 10 years ago. My ex-wife moved to the other end of the country with my kids. So I went from seeing them a couple of times a week to every third weekend, and that was my big catalyst to get out of corporate life. I took my IT geekery and combined that with sales and marketing, and I got into the marketing automation space. And then I started to get clients who were having problems getting their emails into the inboxes of their clients and their audiences. So I first created some software to help with that because going back a few years, there was a lot more of an impact on where your emails were being sent from. So that was my first foray into email deliverability. And since then I've kept half an eye on that. And then for the last 12 months or so, since there's been some really big changes to how email inbox placement works, then I've had some very clear messages from the world that my expertise is needed. So I'm now focusing, maybe not quite 100%, maybe 99% on that. I still got a few other little things in this space that I'm working on. But most of what I'm doing now is just helping people get their emails delivered better, creating software that helps them do that, and just sharing the message as much as I can. Rob: And what is deliverability in the email context? How do you define that word? Adrian: So there is a lot of misunderstanding because sometimes people talk about delivery, sometimes people talk about deliverability. And they are two very distinctive things. The first thing is when you are sending an email or when your email marketing system is sending an email, then the job that the technology has is just to get it as far as the recipient's email server. So let's supposing that I use Google and you use Hotmail, then if I'm gonna send you an email, then my Google server has got to connect to Hotmail and say, "Here is the email." And as long as Hotmail say, "Yes, thank you. I have received it," then the delivery has been made. So that's just like a postman posting the letter through the letterbox. The problem is you don't know if there's a dog waiting on the side of that mailbox to chew the thing up and run away and it never gets opened by the person who was meant to get it. And deliverability is that part of it. It's once it's been accepted by Hotmail or Gmail or whoever, are they gonna put it into the inbox or is it gonna end up in the spam folder or the promotions tab or, heaven forbid, are they just gonna throw it in the garbage and it doesn't even get as far as spam, which can happen. And that is the deliverability part. And that is based on a lot more than just where it came from. And that's what we'll talk about today. But that's the key difference. You know, if you're using something like ActiveCampaign or Mailchimp, their job is to get it to the recipient's server. And they will do a very good job on that most of the time. But then what happens after that, that's where it gets interesting. Rob: And we would gauge this how, with open rates, right? I mean... Adrian: Yeah. It's a real challenge because you can't measure deliverability because, you know, we've got no idea. If someone hasn't opened the email, is it because they didn't care about it? Is it because they were too busy? Or is it because Google or Hotmail or whoever, bless them, decided not to put it in the inbox in the first place? So you're quite right. We can infer things through the open rates, and we can look at trends and things like that. And there are some testing tools out there that claim to be able to tell you whether you're hitting the inbox or not, but even those have got their limits. So it is very difficult indeed. And, you know, this is harder than SEO. With SEO, at least you can see where you are on the search rankings. There's as many different factors to get into the inbox as there are for getting to be number one on Google these days. But it is a much more of a kind of weird thing because you can't see what your results are. You've just got to infer it as in terms of are more people opening our emails or fewer people opening them? Rob: And with that caveat, I mean, what is an average open rate? I mean, I know it varies wildly, doesn't it? But... Adrian: Totally. It is an interesting one because, you know, we're talking a lot in this podcast about how to double your open rate. And, you know, a joke that I often make is that I can double anyone's open rates in seconds. And the way I will do that is I will remove half of the people from their email list who haven't opened anything for a while, and then the next time you send out an email blast, guess what, then if the same number of people opened as last time, then the open rate is doubled. So, it is a very subjective term because it depends on lots of factors. It depends on how engaged your audience is at the moment. It depends...then there is the content. There's the type of business you're in. But what I would say is that I've got clients that have messed things up to the point where they're getting a 0.2% open rate with Google, because they have upset Google to that point. I've got typical clients, maybe starting with a 10% to 20% open rate. And that's, you know, just that's what they've been getting without getting any advice from me without using any of my software or anything. If people are managing their engagement well, and they're doing everything they can, then you could expect maybe 35%, 36%, 37% open rates. That's the kind of amount that I'm getting typically with my mailing list when I'm managing the engagement. And then the other side of it is just well, how many people...or if a new person signs up to your mailing list, what is the likelihood of them opening something as well? So a good barometer is what percentage of new contacts are opening something from me? And if you're managing things well, then I've got clients where 80% of their new signups will open an email from them at some point in the first few weeks. So, you know, there are lots of different ways to measure it. But if you just look at the pure open rate, I would say that you can consider yourself to be doing well, if you're getting more than 30% opens. Rob: Okay, so most of us, you know, a bit of room for improvement there. Adrian: Definitely. Rob: For sure. And we will be using some kind of email software provider so it may be ActiveCampaign, AWeber, Infusionsoft, whatever it may be. Are some of these software providers just better for this than others? And if so, who? Adrian: It's a very interesting one because you can go to any Facebook group or mailing list or discussion forum about any of these platforms, and you can be guaranteed there will always be people complaining about deliverability and saying that emails aren't getting through, they will be blaming the platform. And now if someone's blaming Infusionsoft, then you can take the word Infusionsoft out, put ActiveCampaign in and someone else will be saying the same thing. So it's perception-based, very subjective. But in reality, these days, every single one of these email platforms has a very devoted, dedicated email compliance team, making sure they're not on blacklists, making sure they're getting a good 99-point-something percent delivery rate to the other servers. In some cases, the reputation of the system sending it has a small impact. But I can be absolutely certain and say that if you switch from one provider to another, then you are gonna experience a drop in your open rate regardless of where you're moving from and to. And the reason for that is because one of the reasons that you will suffer from poor open rates is if you do something that looks like a spammer. And guess what spammers do. They move from one platform to the next, to the next. So anytime Google or Microsoft or any of the big players see that you've moved platforms, they will instantly think, "Hang on, there's something going on here." And it might be that things recover again. But you will always have a dip to start with. And it's unlikely that you're gonna do much better than you did before because you've got to build everything up again. So I would say that in terms of how good the platforms are at getting their emails delivered, they're all pretty good. They all have the occasional problem. But it's not a reason to switch platforms. What I would tend to... When I recommend an email platform, comparing one to another, what I will look at is how easy is it to manage the various parameters that will help you to improve your deliverability. And the big thing that I'll talk about later with that is engagement. Because if you can't easily identify the people who are and are not opening your emails, then it's gonna be more difficult to send the right things to the right people at the right time. So, no, I won't call many platforms out for being good because there's lots of good ones, but ConvertKit is one that goes on my real kind of do not touch with a bargepole list, because they have a very, very kind of very poor way of measuring and managing engagement. And you can't even download the data to use from third-party tools. So all the email deliverability tools and software that I've written, I can't even connect that up to ConvertKit because they don't make that data available. Now I'm hoping that's gonna change. So maybe, you know, if people listen to this a few months down the line, maybe that's changed. But the biggest thing that matters to me is: how easy is it to manage the engagement? And most of the platforms are okay. Infusionsoft as an example is really good. ActiveCampaign, you have to jump through a few hoops. And to do a real good job, then you need to use my software to make it easier. But it does depend very much and I'd say, you know, because there are so many different platforms out there, then, you know, if you're choosing one at the start, then engagement management is one of the important things. If you're already using a platform, though, it's not a reason to switch as long as everything else is okay. Rob: Now, that's good. Well, I can speak from bitter experience here, because I actually moved from AWeber, which I'd used for many years, to ActiveCampaign, which I really like, by the way. I like ActiveCampaign, but when I did that, I wasn't aware that you could fall foul of this. Adrian: Absolutely. Rob: And I took a real hit early on. You know, it just wasn't the same and it took some time to get over that. So is there any way if we are moving platforms for some reason, is there any way to manage that process better than I did? Adrian: Yeah, totally. And the other thing is all about who you move across first because as I've already mentioned, it's all about who is engaging with you at the moment, and are you only mailing those. So if you can identify who has opened something from you in the last 30 days, and when you move to a new platform, send emails to those people first. Because that way then you build up a good reputation with your new platform because they want to see that you're a good sender. And at the same time, you're still getting a reasonable open rate. And that helps your domain sending reputation with people like Google, Microsoft, because one of the things they're doing now is they are crowdsourcing your reputation based on which of... Let's supposing that you've got 10,000 people on your mailing list, on average, half of those will be on Google. So Google will look at those 5000 people and say, "Right, how many of those people are opening Adrian's emails right now?" And if it's only 5%, 10%, then Adrian gets a poor domain reputation score from Google. If I'm getting 30%, 40% then I'm getting a good engagement reputation. So it's very much around understanding what they're looking for and just as much as you can, stack the odds in your favor by only starting with the most engaged people, then you can start to go further back. But it is like the law of diminishing returns. The longer it is since someone has opened something from you, the less likely they are to ever open anything ever again. Rob: Yeah, sure. And what happens if we do nothing? You know, if we don't do anything about deliverability these days, I mean, what is that gonna look like for us? Adrian: Oh, it's not a very good picture. Because the thing that people, a lot of people still don't get is how much the email landscape has changed. Because if you wind the clock back to those wonderful years, 10 years ago, you could build up a big list, you know, get as many people onto it, then you basically spam the crap out of them, email them as much as you like. And then you keep emailing until they buy, until they die, or until they unsubscribe. And that was, you know, that was how everyone did it. And that's how people still do it today in some cases. But if they do that now and just keep emailing, keep emailing, then you will see a very, very continuous constant reduction in the number of people opening your emails. Because typically I'm seeing about 10% of your audience disengages on a monthly basis. And that's the law of averages. Sometimes people, you know, they turn off their mail address, they might change jobs, they might lose interest, whatever it is, then, you know, you are typically gonna lose 10% of your audience through disengagement and apathy and everything else on a monthly basis. So, you know, you don't need to be a genius mathematician to work out that as time goes on, then you are gonna get fewer and fewer people opening. Now obviously, if you've got a good lead generation in place, and you're refilling the hopper from the top all the time, you might not notice as much. But if you're literally getting no new leads, and just keep emailing the old list time and time again, then you will see things decline. And that's one of the reasons that people say that email is dying when actually it's not. It's just people aren't necessarily getting enough leads and managing their engagement. Rob: Yeah, sure. Absolutely. So these four steps, talk to us about those. Adrian: Okay, so very, very simple. The first thing you want to do is you wanna protect your reputation. And the way you do that is you scrub your email list, you make sure there are no spam traps on there, you make sure that there's no dead addresses that your email marketing platform hasn't picked up on. Make sure that there's, you know, you're not sending too many emails to role accounts like sales@, or info@ and that kind of thing. And scrubbing the list will find all those different bad email addresses. And then you can choose. In most cases, what you'd do is you would stop emailing all of the addresses that have been identified as bad. And that's just a good way of making sure that you're not hitting spam traps. I haven't got time to go into the detail about spam traps, but the simple version is they are email addresses that have been created either to catch people scraping stuff off the internet, which I'm sure no one listening to this would ever do. Or alternatively, people who aren't keeping their list clean because if an email address stops working, then it will bounce for a while, but then they will reactivate that address as a spam trap. And if you're still emailing that address afterwards, then you go on to the bad boys' list as well. So scrubbing the list helps avoid that, helps keep your reputation clean, and it doesn't cost a huge amount of money. The list scrubbing services will typically say you should do this every three months. But they would, wouldn't they? Because they get the money out of it. But I would say that if you've never done it ever, then you should, and it probably makes sense to do it periodically, maybe once a year, maybe more frequently than that if you keep turning up more problems when you do scrub the list, but definitely worth doing. Rob: So you would use...you would go to a specialist or use a specialist piece of software for this because there are tools built-in with, you know, ActiveCampaign, for example, where it will imply that it's gonna help you clean up the list. Adrian: Yeah, absolutely. Rob: In fact, it may even be called list clean up. So are you saying that's not really adequate or...? Adrian: It doesn't get rid of the nasties. It will certainly help you find the addresses that might have disengaged or might no longer work or anything like that. But if it is an actual toxic address that gonna cause you problems if you mail it, then it's very difficult for the email providers to help you identify that. So yeah, third-party tools that do that will do the job. And it's one of the things that I've actually added to my... I don't have any list scrubbing software myself, but my email deliverability utilities that I've got. I've got a free integration that helps you scrub your list in place on the platform, because normally, you have to download the list to a CSV file, upload it to the scrubbing service, scrub the list, download the result, upload it into your email platform, and it's a right faff when you do that. So I've written a little tool that actually integrates with that and you just literally press a button, and it will either scrub your entire list or a particular segment and then it applies a tag with the results. You decide what to do. So nice and simple. And I'll share more details about that when we get to the end bit. Rob: Good stuff. So that was step one. So basically scrubbing the list is step one. Adrian: Yeah, absolutely. So second step, then, so scrubbing the list is one of the ways to help your reputation. The next thing that matters massively is authentication. And this is about making sure that firstly, you're telling the world who you trust to send emails on your behalf, and secondly, making sure that your emails are being digitally signed by you. So the first thing is called SPF, which stands for Sender Policy Framework. And this tells the world which email systems you trust. So let's supposing that you're using G Suite for your business emails, and then you're using ActiveCampaign for your marketing emails, then you have one...you only have one SPF record. And in the SPF record, it would say that you trust Google and Active campaigns. So that way then when those emails come from those providers, the recipients will check that against your SPF record, and they'll see a big tick in the box if they come from the right place. If someone else has then sent it elsewhere, and they're trying to forge your email, then that gets treated with suspicion obviously. But spammers don't use SPF. So that's one reason to set that up. It's just one way of showing that you're legitimate. So that's nice and simple. And again, most email platforms, I think almost all of them, you might have to dig around sometimes, but they will give you the details as to how to set SPF up for those platforms. Then the second part of it is called DKIM. So, Domain Keys Identified Mail. Again, I'm gonna kind of call out ConvertKit as giving bad advice here, actually, because they say that you should only set up DKIM if you've got more than 50,000 emails a month going out, which is not strictly true. As long as you have got a good sending reputation, you should always set up DKIM, because Google, in particular, will use that digital signature that gets attached to every single email, as a way of proving that it was from you, proving it was legitimate. And if it's been DKIM-signed, then it means that, "No, it can't have been forged." So again, most email platforms, even ConvertKit, will do that for you, you just have to make a bit of a fuss. But, you know, MailChimp, ActiveCampaign, Infusionsoft, you know, the list goes on, they will allow you to set this up. It might be called email authentication, it might be called DKIM, it might be digitally signing, but dig around, you can find it, very, very important to do that. Rob: Okay. All right. So that's step two, those two? Adrian: Yeah, absolutely. I will quickly mention DMARC, which is the third authentication method, which again, is worth doing. But you have to be very careful with DMARC. And make sure whoever sets it up for you knows what they're doing. Because DMARC will tell the recipients to reject and throw emails in the bin, not even the spam folder, if it's not set up right. So be very careful with that. But if you've got a properly set up DMARC record, that is another indicator that you're legitimate, but be careful with that. You know, DKIM you can't get wrong. It either works or nothing happens. SPF, you know, it's not the end of the world if you get that wrong, but, you know, you should make sure it's correct. But if you get DMARC wrong, your emails will suddenly stop going. So be very careful there. Rob: Okay. Proceed with a bit of care? Adrian: Definitely. Rob: Good stuff. So we've talked about scrubbing the list, we've talked about authentication, the third step? Adrian: Okay, so the third thing is about whitelisting. And this is really, really important. Because normally, you are completely at the whim of Google. You're at the whim of Microsoft. Whichever your email provider is, they are gonna decide which emails they show to you and which ones they don't. And whitelisting is a way of forcing them to show the emails that you tell them that you want to see. So as an email marketer, you want to be sharing these whitelisting instructions with your audience. And it's a bit pointless doing it by email because if the emails aren't getting through, they won't do it. So it means that when someone signs up for your list, the first thing you have to show them on your thank you page is how to whitelist you. And this depends very much on the platform that they use. Now the really clever solution is to actually detect what platform they're using and show them personalized whitelisting instructions. So if they're using G Suite or Gmail, you can tell them how to set up a filter to always bypass the spam folder. If they're using Hotmail, or Office 365 or something like that, then you can show them different instructions. And there's ways of actually developing custom code that goes on to the thank you page that can do that. I've done that for a few clients. I've done that on one of my own signup pages, I do that. But if that sounds like too much work, you can also get your own custom whitelisting instructions generated that will just show all of the different platforms on there and how to whitelist you. And if you go to a website and the address is simply whitelist.guru, I'll just repeat that, whitelist.guru, then there's a guy called Chris Lang, who has created a do-it-yourself whitelisting instruction generator. You put your name, your brand, your email address in there, press a button, and it will give you a nice pretty HTML page with your personalized instructions on that you can copy, save, put in your thank you page, off you go. So, very important... Rob: That's handy. Adrian: It's very useful. Bear in mind that not everyone will follow those instructions. But even if 10% of them do, then you're doing yourself a favor. And if people complain, they're not getting your emails ever, then those are the instructions they need to see. Rob: Okay, so that was whitelisting Adrian: Yep. So that leaves us one final step. Now, this is a little bit tenuous, because it isn't just one step. This is more about change your mindset forever. Because as soon as you stop doing this, then this goes back to when we talked about what happens if you do nothing. And this is all about managing your engagement, making sure that you are only sending emails to the people that have opened from you most recently. And if you find people that haven't opened for a while, then you need to maybe send them a reengagement campaign that I'll talk about in a sec. And if they still haven't engaged at that point, then basically, you get rid of them off your list. You're gonna be very ruthless with the way that you manage engagements. Because, you know, as I said earlier on, if only 5% of your audience is opening something, Google and Microsoft and Yahoo will think that you're, you know, sending out complete and utter garbage and they will start putting your emails into the promotions, into the spam, into the junk and so on. So it's important that you are maximizing the chances of people opening your emails by only sending your emails to the people that have recently opened something. And one of the biggest questions that I get asked is, "Well, how far back should I go?" And it depends very much on whether you've got a problem or not. If you haven't got a problem, then my typical rule of thumb is to send emails to people that have opened something within the last 90 days. If you've got a problem, you might need to dial that back a bit or if you want to have a really super-engaged list, then you need to dial that back to 30 days. And sometimes you're gonna have kind of a two or three-tier strategy here. So you might say that people who have opened something in the last 30 days, I'm gonna send them everything. I'll send them maybe two, maybe even three emails a week. If they've opened something between 30 and 90 days, then maybe I'll send something every week or two. If they've opened something beyond 90 days, then ideally, you would just put them through a re-engagement campaign when they reach 90 days of no engagement. And if they ignore that, delete them. Some people will still send the occasional reminder to those people. I would say if it's more than a year, never send them. But maybe between 90 days and a year, then maybe send something every month or two just to give them another chance. You know, the law of averages says that the longer since someone opened something, the less likely they are to open anything. And the other thing to look at as well is we talked briefly about new contacts and the likelihood of them opening something. If someone signs up for your lead magnet, and then they haven't opened anything from you within the first 7 to 14 days, the chances are, they will never ever, ever open anything. Again, they're just gonna be there hurting your sending reputation. So another thing that I recommend is if you've got a process in place for your new contacts, then maybe put something in where when it reaches two weeks, and they haven't opened anything from you, maybe put them through a little reminder. And then again, if there's no engagement, get rid of them. Because, you know, let's face it, if someone signs up for your freebie, and they won't even open that, the chances are they're never gonna be interested in anything else as well. So, you know, that is the main thing. It can be a very arduous task, managing your engagement, but the dividends that it pays off are massive. That is what will make the biggest difference. And even though you will see that you are mailing fewer people, then the open rate will go up very quickly. You know, I know that what we've talked about in the past is how long does it take before you see results. And I would say typically, it can take between one and three months for you to get really good results. When I've been working with, you know, some of my private clients, I had one that came in. They are on a just under a 12% open rate, and within three months, then their open rates had reached 25%. And even though they were mailing fewer people, the actual number of people opening the emails had gone up. So obviously, the number of people hadn't doubled, but it had certainly gone up a bit from when it was 11%, 12%. So, you know, it can take a few months, but as long as you are consistent, then that's what works. And the little tale of woe that I will share is don't let the fear get to you. Don't let the fear of loss and the fear of letting go. Because that same client the month after sent a bunch of email broadcasts to their entire list again without managing the engagement. And within two days, Google had downgraded their reputation and their open rate fell through the floor. It took another month to get that back. So you have gotta keep your nerve. And you gotta be very consistent with this. But the more you do that, the better you'll be rewarded. Rob: Wow. So were those really old people, you just feel it's just not worth having them on the list at all? You know, the chance... Adrian: No. Absolutely not. Because typically, if you send an email broadcast, just the people that have opened more than 90 days ago, you will get maybe a 2%, 3% open rate if you're lucky. But if you keep mailing those people that don't open, the chances are that you'll get 10% fewer people seeing your email in the first place. So it becomes a very simple trade-off that yes, you might get a few more opens, but fewer people long term will see those emails. Obviously, just because they're not opening the emails, doesn't mean you can't use those addresses for Facebook, custom audiences and retargeting, and things like that. So there's still a value in that data. It's just that you shouldn't really email them, you know, very often if at all. Rob: And, I mean, I suppose there's a bit of value in, you know, you could go to the lengths with if we call those people kinda dead subscribers, inactive subscribers, I suppose you could have a crack at... You know, if you had a large number of these, you could maybe take them to another platform and, you know, try send or two to them from different platforms. Adrian: It's interesting you say that because typically, you know, particularly now, Google and their machine learning is clever than all of us put together. And unless you can send a separate email from a separate domain with absolutely no connection to anything else that you've got, then it will probably be linked back to you somehow and your campaign sending reputation will still take a hit. So it doesn't really matter whether you do it from your current mail platform or a different one, it is more just about making sure that your overall engagement still stays high. So, you know, if you are gonna try and send re-engagement emails to the older inactive contacts, make sure you're sending lots of good stuff to the people that are opening so that the kind of the poor performance is slightly more lost in the noise. And that's why I said, you know, having this kind of two or three-tiered process where you're sending the most content to the people that are engaging the most. And that helps you then because at least then you've got a good reputation to start with. And if you are sending to the inactive people, then it's not gonna drag you down as much as if you're doing that regularly. Rob: It's nice, great. And I suppose the good news is that to a large extent, we should be able to automate a lot of this process, the reactivation process, that kinda thing? Adrian: Yes, a lot of the email platforms have some level of that. Again, they'll kinda help you do maybe, you know, it's the 80/20 rule all over again. They'll help you do kind of the 20% that has 80% of the impact, but you can always do it slightly better. That's one of the reasons that one of the best software that I wrote actually makes it easier to do that. Because sometimes, you know, I'll use both ActiveCampaign and Infusionsoft are good examples of this, is that they will give you, you know, enough to do a semi-decent job. But if you wanna really get down into the weeds in this and say, "Right, I'll have different strategies for 30 days versus 90 days versus more than 90 days," then it requires a lot of hard work and manual reporting. So sometimes the software that I've got makes that easier. But, you know, there's always a level of it that you can automate. Rob: Okay, no, great. Really, really helpful. So to wrap up, then, if listeners only took one nugget or piece of advice away, what should that be? Adrian: If I was gonna choose one thing out of that, obviously, all four are important. But I think, you know, managing...assuming that you haven't bought a list or something horrific like that, managing your engagement on an ongoing basis is the most effective way of keeping things healthy. Because that way then, assuming that spam traps and things like that don't open your emails, which most of them don't, then as long as you stop sending emails to people that aren't opening, then that will keep things clean, it'll keep your domain reputation up, and, you know, it will mean that as time goes on, then more people will see your email. So engagement, engagement, engagement. That's the key one. Rob: Excellent. Where's the best place, Adrian, if people wanna get more from you? Where should they go? Where can they check you out? Adrian: Nice and simple. So the first thing, I've got a free email health check service. And that works with most email marketing platforms. I'm adding more all the time. So right now if you've got Infusionsoft, ActiveCampaign, HubSpot, Mailchimp, Sendinblue, Constant Contact, then it already works with those and I'm adding others in. And that will just give you a nice simple score between 0 and 100 telling you how well you're managing your engagement right now, give you some hints and tips to improve that. And to get that you can go to emailhealthcheck.net and just sign up. If you're not using those platforms, then sign up there anyway and you can get added to my list. I'm always sending out blog posts and hints and tips, things like that. And also you can find me on Facebook, facebook.com/adriansavage. Connect with me there. I'm always happy to point people in the right direction if they need any help. Rob: That is excellent. And I can vouch for Adrian, because you helped me... I think we had a look at some of my stuff with your software and very enlightening it was too and I've began to do some of the things that you recommended. Adrian: Excellent. Rob: There we go. Good stuff. Well, Adrian, this has been really valuable. So just to say thank you. This has been really helpful. Adrian: And I've really enjoyed it. And thank you very much for inviting me onto the podcast. Rob: You are very welcome. And I will talk to you soon. Adrian: Great stuff. Thanks, Rob. Rob: Hey, it's Rob, again. Want to build a successful online business from your expertise? Well, the game has changed. There are bigger opportunities, but also bigger pitfalls than ever before. And I would hate for you to waste years figuring these things out for yourself. Now as a listener to this show, you're obviously a sensible person, right? So here's my invitation to you. Apply to jump on a call with me in the next few days and let's talk about you. You will get feedback on your ideas. You will get a product concept that is fit for right now and you will get a personalized sales and income plan to take away. That is free but availability is limited. So please go along right now to chatwithrob.com. That is, chatwithrob.com. Do that now. I'm looking forward to hearing from you. Once again, that is chatwithrob.com. Talk to you soon.

SUMMARY: This week we talked to Denise Fenzi about FDSA Training Camp 2018! In previous years, we've shared the audio from Denise's opening talk, but unfortunately the camera this year didn't do a great job picking up her voice, so instead we're just going to talk through all the themes from camp. Next Episode:  To be released 6/22/2018, featuring Sue Yanoff, talking canine sports medicine! TRANSCRIPTION: Melissa Breau: This is Melissa Breau and you're listening to the Fenzi Dog Sports Podcast brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy, an online school dedicated to providing high-quality instruction for competitive dog sports using only the most current and progressive training methods. Today we'll be talking to Denise Fenzi about FDSA Training Camp 2018! In previous years, we've shared the audio from Denise's opening talk, but unfortunately the camera this year didn't do a great job picking up her voice, so instead we're just going to talk through all the themes from camp. Hi Denise. Welcome back to the podcast! Denise Fenzi: Hi Melissa. It's always nice to be here. Melissa Breau: For anyone who is new to the podcast or to FDSA, can you share a little bit about camp? What is it? Why is it awesome? Denise Fenzi: Well, camp is probably the highlight of my year in relation to FDSA. For starters, we have so much going on at any given time. I think we had 15 or 16 instructors this year, and we run six sessions at a time. So if you come, you have a whole lot of opportunity to see pretty much anything, and we cover a lot of dog sports now, you know, nosework and obedience and behavior, and it goes on and on. Probably the thing that stands out for me is how consistent all of the instructors are with things we really care about, the wellbeing of the dog, and at the same time how different we all are in what we care about and where we choose to put our energy. So it's a pretty amazing experience for me and I think for most of our participants as well. Melissa Breau: I definitely agree. I feel like a lot of seminars and things, as an attendee you go and at the end you feel, OK, I've got some stuff to work on. Whereas I feel like the biggest takeaway for me from camp was the end of it I heard over and over and over again, “I'm so proud of my dog. They did awesome this weekend.” And I really think that can be attributed to the staff and the way the instructors work with the students. I think it just makes them feel good about their relationship with their dog. Denise Fenzi: Yeah. I think the corollary to that is that the instructors spend a lot of time saying, “I'm just so proud of my students.” Because the dogs got that from somewhere. Those dogs didn't just show up being amazing. They're amazing because the people who work with them have spent so much energy making training a wonderful experience. I'm so proud of my instructors because my instructors give so much to their students, and I'm so proud of my students because they give so much to their dogs. So it's an amazing cycle for all of us. Melissa Breau: This was the fourth annual FDSA Training Camp, and each year, camp has a theme. Do you mind sharing what the theme was for this year? Denise Fenzi: This year we did Face Your Fears. So many students, they want to do it right, they care so much, and that's amazing, but sometimes it's also a little paralyzing, and what if? What if my dog pees in the ring? What if … you can fill in any blank you want, people are all over the map. And so I think that is something that is holding us back. So our theme this year was Face Your Fears. What can we do to allow us to succeed? Melissa Breau: Do you mind … can you share the story of the dream that inspired all of that? Denise Fenzi: That was not our original theme. We changed it. What tends to happen each year is something happens during the year that sparks a topic. So, for example, the first year was The Red Dress. That was because one of the students drew a picture of me which is often associated with the school, it's our logo. But she put me in a red dress with heels, and it was kind of cute and fun and a lot of people talked about it, so what the hell, I dressed up in that outfit, which was actually quite hard, but it was fun. The second year, we did a lot of conversation about the idea of ripples and bubbles, so the idea that you want to go out in the world and make change, and at the same time you've really got to have a safe space, so that's a bubble that you hide in, and so I dressed up as a mermaid and represented that theme. The third year, we had talked a lot about advocating for your dog, which is very much a focal point at FDSA, as we just talked about, and so I dressed up as a superhero, Wonder Woman. This year, I'm not going to tell you the original theme because, who knows, we might come back to it. But I had a dream, not an amazing dream, just a regular dream, but it was something of a nightmare. What happened was at first I showed up for camp and there was some fellow teaching a lecture, a lab, and everybody was there, and he was somebody I did not know, and all of the students were riveted by him and he was teaching them about football. I remember being a little bit like, Wow, that's different. I didn't expect somebody I don't know to be here teaching football, but I'll figure it out later. And then I went outside and I saw all of these lions in cages, and I thought, I really have to talk to my instructors about telling me if they're going to do something like that. But I was kind of OK with that too. I'm pretty easygoing. Then I came back in and looked at the clock and I realized I was about to teach, and I looked down and I was wearing a towel. I hadn't gotten dressed yet. Of those events, a stranger teaching at camp football to the students and lions in cages outside, those didn't particularly bother me. But being in a towel bothered me very much. And I did teach, by the way. I think in my dream I went ahead and taught. I don't remember how it went beyond that. But as I brought that up on the alumni list and I talked to the students about that dream and said, “Oh, I must be anxious about camp,” and that led to an amazing discussion where people talked about things that had happened to them for real at dog shows. Funny things, mostly. Well, it depends — funny is from your point of view. It's not funny when your skirt falls off. It is funny when somebody else's falls off. But the thing that came back to me is that people overcame those experiences and did continue to show, because they're on the alumni list. They're still in the community. That led to my thinking about how is it that some people are able to face the fears that have happened, the clothing failures, and how other people are really more worried about what might happen, and how much of that is centered around the issue of being embarrassed. It's not physical harm that most people were worried about. It's emotional harm. So that was the dream that inspired our theme, and that was where we went with our discussion. Melissa Breau: I think it's funny that you say of the three things, the thing that bothered you most is talking in a towel, so you actually made that happen. For anybody that wasn't there, Denise came out in a Pac-Man towel. Denise Fenzi: I did, yeah. I think next year I'm going to go for a lot of clothing. It's a little easier. Melissa Breau: Fair enough. During your opening talk, you had three tips for helping to deal with embarrassment. Can you rehash those for us? Denise Fenzi: Sure. The first one is a little bit of an understanding of biology. When you are anxious, your body releases a variety of hormones that tells you, “Oh my goodness, you're having an emotion.” But what's interesting is those hormonal experiences are the same if you're excited or anxious. It's your brain that tells you, “I'm really excited because this amazing thing is going to happen,” or “I'm really anxious because this horrible thing might happen.” That's actually a fascinating and powerful thing to know, because if you know that, then you actually have a lot of control over the situation. So rather than saying, ‘I'm really anxious about showing my dog. She might pee in the ring,” you have the option of saying, “I'm really excited about showing my dog. I've never done this before. This is going to be new.” And admittedly you have to do a little mental gymnastics, because our natural tendency, I think in particular for women, is to assume anxiety maybe when it really isn't anxiety. Maybe we really are excited. They've done some really interesting research on that topic that you can tell yourself “I'm excited,” and that will help you become excited as opposed to anxious. So that would be one thing I would recommend is an awareness of that, and then just keep telling yourself, “I'm so excited to be at the dog show. This is going to be amazing,” rather than “I'm so scared.” The second thing I talked about was preparation. When you're afraid, instead of hiding it and smushing it down in your head, pull it out. What are you concerned about? And then prepare to make those incidences less likely. So if you are afraid that your dog is going to pee in the ring, teach your dog to go to the bathroom on cue, if that's important to you, if that will give you comfort, so that when you go in the ring that is less likely to happen. Or if you think that you might go in the ring and your dog is going to have a meltdown of whatever type, ask yourself where that is coming from and is it a legitimate concern, because if it is, there are things you can do to prepare your dog and yourself to make that less likely. Don't turn away from the things that concern you. Address them. The final thing I suggested was train yourself and treat yourself with the kindness that we treat our dogs. We talk a lot about criteria with our dogs. Don't put your dogs in circumstances that will over-faze them and make them uncomfortable. Don't put yourself in circumstances that are above your readiness. Your first dog show does not have to be a great big show with six rings and a lot of activity. Maybe start with some video competitions or a smaller local trial or a fun match. Ease into the dog show world or the world of competition. You may never go to a dog show, but I guarantee you will be just as nervous at your first video competition when you turn on that video camera as you will at a show. So treat yourself with some kindness and set yourself up for success, because success really does breed success. That is absolutely well researched. We know this is true for dogs and people, that when people have many successful experiences they build confidence in themselves and they are willing to keep trying and moving forward. Failure, it's wonderful to say “Well, just get back up,” but the fact is failure has a tendency to beat people down and they don't keep getting back up. They stop trying. So those were my three suggestions: a little understanding of biology, prepare yourself well so that you can feel like you've done everything in your power, and set some criteria that will set you up for likelihood of success. Melissa Breau: You also shared some advice on what to do if it DOES all go to hell. How would you recommend people handle that? Denise Fenzi: I'm a pretty big fan of preparing for everything, because I find that if I have a plan for how I'm going to handle it if it doesn't go right, so just in a very straight training sense, I have asked my dog to do something, I have asked my dog to spin, and my dog just looks at me, has never heard that in her life or his life, it's actually important to me to already know exactly what I will do. I asked you to spin, you didn't do it, I am going to move my hand in a way that is going to cause you to spin and make it more likely. When I do that, what I find is two things happen. One, I am more likely to recover quickly because I've already made a decision about what I'm going to do. But the second thing is, in a very subtle way you send off signals to your dog that tell them you have a plan and you are in control. So if I think it is possible that my dog might run amuck in the ring and take off, I've already worked on an emergency recall and I know what I'm going to do. I'm going to kneel down and call my dog to me, because standing and looking paralyzed, not only is that very, very hard on you emotionally, and your dog, it creates long-term issues. Often if I give someone a plan for when things don't go wrong, I've noticed that they have this instant change in their demeanor and then they never have a chance to practice their emergency situation because the dog reads their confidence. So I absolutely believe that you should have some ideas for everything if it's going to go right. You can't pick every possibility, but the ones that are biggest in your head you can pick some strategies in advance. Melissa Breau: Our shirts this year all said, “Game on,” and they had a Pac-Man theme. I'd love to hear how you came up with that, and obviously it connects to the “eating your fears” concept. So I'd love to hear where all the awesome designs come from and where the thought process occurs for that. Denise Fenzi: Well, the school, FDSA, is quite a bit more than me. It's many, many, many people. Teri Martin is sort of, well, she's kind of everything, you know, she's always right there supporting me in many ways. She is the one that came up with the idea of the Pac-Man creature eating up your fears. And then Rebecca Aube is my designer, and she's designed all of the T-shirts for camp. She took Teri's ideas and said, “I can run with that.” There's always a process of back and forth, so we had power-ups. Eating the fruits in the real game of Pac-Man gives you power, so for us, eating up your fear, your anxiety, your worries. So it's a cumulative process and effort of many people on our team to come up with these ideas. Melissa Breau: That was all for the welcome talk or the intro talk, but you also gave a short closing talk, and your focus for that was on the importance of being happy in order to learn. I'd love to have you elaborate a bit more on that, why it's important, and what made you talk about that. Denise Fenzi: Well, I think most of us are aware that when we are embarrassed or afraid, we do not learn well. If something happens in a circumstance and we find ourselves embarrassed, most of us lose the next 15 or 20 minutes of the talk or the event or whatever it is, because we're stewing. I mean, some of us lose days or months or years, even, over embarrassment. And fear is the same. When you are uncomfortable and nervous, really, fear dominates everything and we tend to focus on that. Now, if you think about it, camp can be a very high-pressure situation for both the human and the dog. You're standing in front of maybe a hundred people, you're about to be taught and directed, and that's stressful, so it's so important that we have people as comfortable as we can possibly make them. As a result, everyone — the instructors and the students and the dogs — we all think so much about the importance of maintaining happiness, and I know our students think about it a lot in relation to their dogs because we talk about it so much. That's called a CER: a conditioned emotional response. We want our dogs to be conditioned to loving being with us and training and finding it fun and low stress. But the same is true for the people, and as a result, staff at FDSA and the design of camp is set up to minimize the human stress as much as possible, and to make sure that people are happy and feel loved and warm and excited to be there and understand that if they make an error, there's nothing to be embarrassed about. It's OK. What I found as the years go by this becomes easier for all of us. We all become more comfortable with how this works. You could see the effects in camp. You could see that people were able to learn in real time and they were happy, so then of course their dogs are happy, and then of course the staff is happy, and again you have that circle. I do not choose my closing speech in advance. I just talk about whatever stood out for me at camp. And it really stood out for me, was almost a bit of an epiphany for me, that CER, that conditioned emotional response, the importance of it, the importance of happiness and feeling good is just as important for the handler as it is for the dog and that we all take some responsibility for making that happen. Melissa Breau: Of course the other thing you talk about during the closing talk every single year is the date and location for next year. I want to talk a little more about that, but first, where and when is it next year? Denise Fenzi: All right. It is May 19 through the 21st, it's three days, 2019, in Lebanon, Pennsylvania. The location is the Lebanon Valley Exposition Center. Once again we have lots of space. We go to some trouble to ensure that we have a lot of space so that we have the best possible sound. Once again we'll have a wide variety of instructors. We do have a few changes, I think people will be excited about that, a couple of new people coming in. Melissa Breau: I wanted to get in a little bit more into what goes into choosing the location and the space and stuff like that. I know everybody at camp was pretty excited about where camp would be, but obviously choosing that location is a very involved process, and I know usually Teri is working on it pretty much as soon as one year ends, trying to plan for the next year. So how do you decide where to have camp each year? What goes into that? Denise Fenzi: It's actually, it's really quite complex. Planning camp is actually a two-year cycle, so we are already picking our 2020 facility now because you have to start really far in advance. For 2019, we have a contract signed, but I think maybe more goes into camp than people realize, and it's a very complex thing. Just finding a facility that can host us is hard because we need large, open working spaces. Many conferences don't have working dogs that require large open spaces. It's just the nature of our dog sports. That alone takes a lot of space. The second one is sound. If you're going to run six rings at the same time, you need six distinct spaces. But you don't want six huge spaces, because one, sound does not, it's not as efficient to be in a huge building with a smaller number of people, and the second thing is just expense. You pay for all those large spaces. Just logistically there are only so many places in the United States, and each one that we investigate ends up taking us several hours, once we narrow it down, and then we find something that's just not going to work, so lack of air conditioning or no airport nearby or whatever is part of that. Some of the criteria, we are looking for heavy student population centers because experience has taught us that people generally drive within about an eight-hour radius, although I did notice this year people are coming from further. So we're looking for places where we already know we have a lot of students. In addition, we are trying to rotate it around the country, sort of a north, south, east, west, but it's not that clean because again we're looking for population centers. So this year we're about eight hours east of last year because we feel that we can fill that effectively at this time. We can pull people down from the northeast, it was too far for them, and we can pull people up from the southeast because it was too far for them, and hopefully we'll also pull people in from the middle of the country, and we have an airport within about an hour. Next year we'll probably make a more radical change the year after that and head back to the other side of the country. It's actually very, very difficult for us to pick locations, and we worry and we want everyone to be able to participate, but we recognize the difficulty of that. And we do generally have people come internationally, so hopefully people from Europe and, well, Europe in particular will consider coming over next year, because it's really only about six or seven hours to get to the East Coast, so we're trying to maximize, and Canadians tend to represent very, very well at camp, so we're hoping they're going to come down. They're some lively people, those Canadians. Melissa Breau: I'm sure they'd appreciate that. I know that you were talking about the sound thing, and a lot of the time when those threads pop up on the alumni list, people suggest places where they've had great nationals and things like that. I think there's often a failure to realize what you said that not only do we need the space to have six rings essentially, but they need to be divided into their own rooms, because otherwise you get so much bleed from sounds. I know that's been an issue in past years. And you've worked to remedy food issues from past years and bathroom issues from past years. There's just so many factors. I think it's incredible. Denise Fenzi: We do ask. We do a survey every year and it's incredibly valuable for us. We get feedback about what does or doesn't work. It also comes when I read the survey that I understand that some people just don't understand. For example, we don't choose the caterer. Most of the time the facility tells us what our options are, so we don't say, “We're going to bring in pizza.” They say, “No, you're not.” For example, that is one. They tell us where we can do it. They tell us if we can or cannot have outside alcohol. They tell us what the prices are going to be. We do not make money on those things. So we have to work within the constraints that we have, and I think people are unaware of many of our constraints. However, we always get suggestions every year that we look at and we say, “This we can do.” So if you are really passionate about something and you don't understand why we are ignoring you, it's not necessarily that we think it's not a good idea. It may be outside of our control, or there may be other expenses or other things that people are not aware of that we have to dovetail all of these things together. It's a very complicated and rewarding experience for us. Melissa Breau: I just have one more question on my list, but before we get to that, I wanted to give you an open choice question, for lack of a better term. Is there anything else fun or exciting going on at the academy or favorite moments from camp that you want to share? Denise Fenzi: There's so much. You know, you go home from camp on such a high, and I think a big part for me is this sense of wonder. I'm amazed at what FDSA is and who it is. It is the people. Where did I find a Teri and a Melissa and a Rebecca? Where did I find these amazing people? So, for me, camp is really the people. Where did I find these amazing students? The volunteers — they're fantastic. They work so hard, they're focused, they just do so much. I think the thing I flew home with on my airplane as I came home was that sense of people, how amazing people can be, if you're looking for what's going right. Camp is a great example of what went right, and that will hold me probably for months. I'll stay excited about that. Melissa Breau: So I don't know if you know this, but I've been trying something new at the end of each episode. The three questions at the end of every interview were definitely one of my favorite things early on, but it obviously doesn't make sense to ask them over and over when people come back. So I've come up with a new question for returning guests, and I think you're the second or third person I've had the chance to ask it. What is a lesson you've learned or been reminded of recently when it comes to dog training? Denise Fenzi: This is one I talk about a lot for other people, but it came home to roost. I would like to talk about videotaping. Has anybody not heard me tell you, “You have to videotape your work if you really want to improve.” Of course you can do it other ways, but my goodness, if you videotape and look at it — this is the second part — look at it from an outside perspective, don't watch yourself training your dog, watch your friend training a dog, and that extra step of removal will show you things. It will allow you to relax your brain and your defensive side that says, “I know I'm doing it right,” because we all have that, and it will allow you to say, “Oh, that's really a quick tweak here, just let's change that little thing.” It did kind of come home. I've been doing some new stuff with Brito, and I was reminded that I need to pay more attention to my basic mechanics. Many of these things are fairly muscle memory for me, but if you don't pay attention, you will start to slide. You'll just get a little bit sloppy. And I realized as I'm trying to teach him some new skills, I am reminded that I need to pay more attention to my mechanical skills. Think about it. You give your cue, you give your hand help if needed, you take your food out of your pocket. That simple sequence has started to blend together over time. So I would say that has been my lesson, my recent lesson that is serving me well. Melissa Breau: Thank you so much for coming back on the podcast, Denise! This was great. Denise Fenzi: Oh, it's always great to be here. Thank you, Melissa. Melissa Breau: And thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in! As a last-minute reminder, this comes out on Friday the 15th, which is also the last day to register for this session at FDSA. There are a ton of amazing classes running this term, so if you haven't, you should go check them out. And we'll be back next week, this time with Sue Yanoff to talk about canine sports medicine. CREDITS: Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty-free by BenSound.com; the track featured here is called “Buddy.” Audio editing provided by Chris Lang.

SUMMARY: Amanda has been traveling the country and teaching seminars for 20+ years, teaching all levels of agility with nearly all dog breeds. She focuses on teaching teamwork and how to create a strong connection between dog and handler. She works with all styles of handling, from running with your dog to distance handling, and tailors each training session, large or small, to the dog and handler. She's always looking to help bring out the best in each team. Amanda's handling system, “Cues for Q's,” works off her three base cues: Upper Body Cues, Lower Body Cues, and Verbal Cues. This system was derived from the natural cues that most dogs read and pick up quickly. Amanda teaches handlers how to use all of these cues together to create a customized handling system that can be tailored to their unique dog. All of these techniques have resulted in Amanda earning numerous top agility titles on her own dogs. Next Episode:  To be released 6/15/2018, featuring Denise Fenzi, talking about camp this year! TRANSCRIPTION: Melissa Breau: This is Melissa Breau and you're listening to the Fenzi Dog Sports Podcast brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy, an online school dedicated to providing high-quality instruction for competitive dog sports using only the most current and progressive training methods. Today we'll be talking to Amanda Nelson. Amanda has been traveling the country and teaching seminars for 20+ years, teaching all levels of agility with nearly all dog breeds. She focuses on teaching teamwork and how to create a strong connection between dog and handler. She works with all styles of handling, from running with your dog to distance handling, and tailors each training session, large or small, to the dog and handler. She's always looking to help bring out the best in each team. Amanda's handling system, “Cues for Q's,” works off her three base cues: Upper Body Cues, Lower Body Cues, and Verbal Cues. This system was derived from the natural cues that most dogs read and pick up quickly. Amanda teaches handlers how to use all of these cues together to create a customized handling system that can be tailored to their unique dog. All of these techniques have resulted in Amanda earning numerous top agility titles on her own dogs. Hi Amanda! Welcome back to the podcast. Amanda Nelson: Hi, it's so great to be back again. Melissa Breau: Awesome. To start us out, can you just refresh our listeners' memories by telling us a little bit about your dogs and what you're working on with them? Amanda Nelson: Technically three dogs, although one of them is my boyfriend's. My older dog, Nargles, is 9 years old, and I'm spending most of this year getting her ready to go to the NADAC championships in the Stakes Division, which is a distance class, basically. My young dog, Ally, is 5 years old, and this will be her first year going to championships, again hopefully in the Stakes Division. So I've been practicing a lot of distance stuff with them, really trying to fine-tune Nargles and build up Ally's confidence and all that good stuff for her pushing out and doing all that good distance stuff. And then my boyfriend, Jimmy, has Tripp that I've trained with him. He, too, is going in Stakes, hopefully, so it's a whole group of them all going together, so that's a lot of fun. Melissa Breau: I don't train agility with my dogs — at least not yet. I do know that most competitors who do have a lot of foundation skills they work on with dogs for jumps and tunnels and contacts. How common is it to include foundation skills for distance specifically in that “beginner” work? Amanda Nelson: I think it's fairly common, especially if that's something that you're wanting to do in the future, it's a goal or something that you're looking towards. I think it's fairly easy to go ahead and incorporate those distance skills in with the foundation skills. I do it a lot with my young dogs. With that being said, I listen to the dog quite a bit, and I don't want to push them too much or ask for too much distance work right off the bat. But I do start incorporating some of that confidence work and some of those skills to help build up that confidence and build up that drive to want to work away from me, especially with those younger dogs, and get them used to that kind of work and that kind of distance right from the get-go. Melissa Breau: When you're training your own dogs, at what point do you start that, do you begin working on those distance skills? Amanda Nelson: It really depends on the dog. Nargles, right from the very beginning, was very much into … she liked moving away from me, she liked doing the distance work. So I started incorporating it pretty much right from the start. When I started doing even my groundwork skills with her, my targeting and working with cone work and things like that, I started asking for quite a bit of distance from her because that's really what she wanted and really what she liked. Ally, on the other hand, who I said was 5, she is just now this year really wanting to get into that distance work. She's just now coming into her own and thinking that maybe she would like to do something like that. So her foundation I did incorporate distance work and distance skills, but I definitely didn't push for it or ask too much of her, just because she just wasn't mentally quite ready. So with her, I let her tell me when she was ready to start adding more and more distance. But I still incorporate it, I guess, in her training. I just didn't push it, I guess would be the best way to explain it. Melissa Breau: You mentioned cones a little bit in there. What do those early steps in training look like, for those that are out there and interested? Amanda Nelson: I start with the cones, and pretty much the early steps when I start doing foundation work, with my distance training even, the cones are great, even if your eye is not looking towards distance, you're just looking at handling and commitment skills. I start teaching my dogs to work with the cones — when I say “out,” that means go to the outside of the cone, “here” means come to the inside of the cone — I developed working with the cones and working my dogs on those because I didn't have a lot of space and I still don't, and I travel extensively without equipment. Using the cones, I can set them up at campgrounds, or I can set them up just about anywhere, and I can work my young dogs on all their distance and directional skills with four to six cones, depending on how much space I have. So when I'm beginning with them, it basically is just, “Here, we're going to send you out around a couple of cones,” build their confidence to go out away from me to get around those cones, and then I can also work on my handling timing, because my dog's definitely going faster just going around a cone, as opposed to going over a jump and things like that. So it improves my timing quite a bit by using the cones, and I can also work on not only their distance skills but their directional skills as well. Melissa Breau: How do you then take those and build on them? What are some of the intermediate steps between go around a cone, and sending to an obstacle that may be a few yards away? Amanda Nelson: What I usually do  — it's what I did with Ally, I think again is what really helped build her confidence and build her drive to want to work away from me — is once I have my dogs doing what I call cone work, so they're doing six cones and we're doing a bunch of directional changes, distance work, and things like that, I'll take the cones and I'll place them next to jumps or hoops. They can be placed next to the wing of a jump, and because I've done so much foundation and value-building for those cones, when I give my dog an “out” cue, or whatever directional cue I want to use, they're going to see that cone and go, “Oh, OK, I know that cone, I know that,” and be able to push out around that jump wing and start applying the cones to obstacles. I can also use them in sequences. What I really like to use them for is in-between, say, a contact tunnel discrimination, so when I say “out,” they can go out tunnel, or here into the contact walk-it. I like to start blending them in with my equipment, and it gives my dogs something that is a visual. So when I say “out,” they see that cone and like, “OK, yes, I need to go out around that cone,” and then I can start fading that cone back a little bit. I've also brought them back in for my older dogs. As an example, Nargles, for some reason she's having a brain fart on her discriminations. In her old age she's forgotten what that means. Melissa Breau: It happens to the best of us. Amanda Nelson: That's right. So in her training sessions I've actually brought the cones back, and I've put them in-between the contact and the tunnel and just helping her remember that “out tunnel” really truly does mean “out tunnel.” So they're great for that too — to help those bring older dogs, if they need a little tuning up or something like that, to bring it back into perspective for them. Melissa Breau: I know you mentioned “out” and “here.” Do you mind repeating which ones which way again? I know people are always interested in cues. Amanda Nelson: My basic cues, “out” means for my dog to move out away from me, “here” means for my dog to move in towards me, just like a discrimination “out” would be out to the outside obstacle, which is usually a tunnel, and “here” would be to come to the inside obstacle. A “switch” means for my dog to turn away from me, so if they're on my left side, they're going to turn away from that left side. And then I have a “tight,” which is basically just my wing wrap cue when I want them to wrap a hoop, or wrap a jump, or something similar, and I need them to turn very tightly back towards me. Those are my base cues, and I tend to blend them together. For instance, today I'm at an agility competition, and Ally needed to change directions, so I needed to give her a “switch,” which meant I needed her to turn away from me, and then I needed her to wrap the jumps. So I would say “switch,” which meant for her to turn away, and then I would say “tight,” which meant for her to wrap the jump towards me. Melissa Breau: That's awesome, because it really helps communicate all those different spatial things, the different directionals. Amanda Nelson: Yeah, yeah. Melissa Breau: I know distance is a pretty big element in the competition venue you usually compete in. Is it beneficial for dogs in other venues too? What advantages does training for distance really give an agility team? Amanda Nelson: I definitely think it's beneficial. A lot of venues now, I think, are all asking for more and more distance, and I think it's beneficial no matter what agility venue you want to do with your dog, especially for the distance classes — NADAC, Chances, or Gamblers, Fast, any of that, it's great to have those skills. Each venue asks for just a little bit of a … they're all a little different in the distance skills they ask. But the core quality or core skill that you're looking for is for your dog to move away from you, and so I truly think distance is great for that. And distance is great to be able to use to get where you need to be as a handler. To be able to send your dog out away from you to go do that jump so you can get somewhere else — that, I think, is the biggest benefit of distance. Especially for me, I'm not perhaps the speediest handler in the world, so I like to use that to my advantage that I can send my dog out and away, and then I can get to where I need to go to help them on a piece of the course where they really need me to be there as a handler. So I love using distance for that. Melissa Breau: Is this something that all teams can learn? Is it something that all teams can at least work on? Amanda Nelson: I definitely think so. Between teaching online and teaching in person, I feel like I've dealt with just about every breed in the whole wide world, mixed breeds, it just feels like I've seen them all, which is fantastic because I love going to seminars and seeing all these different breeds. At one seminar I taught last year, in the same session I had a Great Dane and a Chihuahua and it was fantastic. It made my whole year. But each dog is going to be a little different in how they learn. Each dog is going to be a little different in how much distance they can give. I have three Border Collies, and all three of them are vastly different in what they're comfortable with, what distances are comfortable. I really tend to listen to the dog, and I do believe all handler and dog teams are capable of distance. It's just a matter of, in my opinion, confidence is the biggest thing with distance. Being clear in your cues and your dog having the confidence to perform those cues away from you is huge, and I think once you've crossed that bridge, once you've taught your dog that “When I say ‘out,' I really mean ‘out,'” and you've built so much value for moving out away from you, whether it's with the cones or whatever system you would like to use. But once you've built all that confidence, and built that drive to move away from you, I think dogs really like it. I loved watching, for instance, the little Chihuahua I worked with. She just lit up. Every time her owner said “out,” she was like, “I can, I can, I can,” and her little legs were going a hundred miles an hour, and she was so excited because she got to do something all by herself sort of thing. She was so happy to go show that she really could do that. It was very cool. Melissa Breau: I was waiting for that c-word to come up, because I know what we talked about heavily last time was the fact that confidence is such a huge component of good distance skills, and so I knew it was going to come up sooner or later. Your class on Intro to Distance — I know you're teaching that this session, so it starts on June 1st. I can't remember if this is coming out right before this or right after that, but would you be willing to share a little more about the class itself, what you'll cover, maybe who would be a good fit? Amanda Nelson: Yeah, definitely. I love this class. It's definitely one of my favorites. I love the beginning stages of teaching distance. I love watching dogs light up when they start putting pieces together. So this class is going to be … it covers all of my foundation work, so it's very minimal equipment. I do think towards about Week 5, Week 6, we start using jumps and hoops, but it's very minimal. A lot of it is focusing on the handlers, making sure that our handlers are all using the feet in the right direction, the arms in the right direction, that the verbals match what all that should be saying, and teaching the dog to really … a lot of it, again, is confidence — building that confidence to go out around that cone, building value for the body language and the verbal cue of “out,” so every time they hear it that they light up and they want to go out do it. This class really focuses on building that up. As far as who it's good for, the last time I ran this class, I had a bunch of foundation, like puppies and young dogs who were just coming in and really wanting to get that foundation training right from the get-go and really wanted to build that confidence. But then I also had about three older dogs that came in, and the dogs are competing, they're high-level competition dogs, and the dogs just weren't giving that same spark that they were, so the students really wanted to see if this class would help bring that back, and that was a ton of fun. So it is a foundation groundwork class, but whether, I think, you have a young dog or even an older dog who maybe you want to start working on some distance skills because maybe you haven't previously, or want to build that confidence back up, I really like this class in that respect. The focus is all about bringing up that spark and bringing back the confidence and that push to get them to want to go out and do things all by themselves sort of thing. Melissa Breau: This wasn't necessarily in the questions, but I know earlier you mentioned that one of the reasons you like using your cones is because it lets you work in a fairly limited amount of space. How much space is somebody going to need to work on the exercises from this class? Amanda Nelson: Very minimal. Like I said, towards the end of class I set up some more advanced-type exercises that have a couple of jumps, a couple of hoops, that sort of thing, but they're more like bonus lessons. Most of the stuff is focused around the four cones, and most of the lessons that you'll see if you sign up for the class, most everything, all my lessons are filmed, I'm in a very tiny little area. I would say maybe, oh geez, 25 feet wide maybe by 25 feet. It's very small, if that. Enough for four cones set up. Some of the videos you can watch my progression of travels because they're filmed in a different location almost every week. So it's a very small little area. I think I usually recommend people have about 30 by 30 feet, somewhere in there, so they have enough room to get around. But I tend to modify any of the lessons if it doesn't quite work for someone's space. Melissa Breau: Gotcha. Now, in addition to that class, you're also teaching an agility Handler's Choice this session. I'd love to hear a little bit about what kinds of problems students could work on if they wanted to take that class. Amanda Nelson: Again Handler's Choice. That's again another favorite class. Apparently all mine I like a lot, so that's probably a good thing. Melissa Breau: That is a good thing. Amanda Nelson: That's a good start, right? I was just getting ready to say that's my favorite class. Handler's Choice I think is a ton of fun. There's other instructors in the school that offer Handler's Choice, and I always sign up for them at least at Bronze because I love seeing … in one six-week class you get to see so much stuff. It's just so awesome. The last time I ran Handler's Choice we had people wanting to work on weave poles, we had distance, we had handling. I had one handler who wanted to prep for an upcoming championship, and then I had a couple of puppies that were just working on cone work. I believe one dog didn't want to do any agility. She just wanted to focus on her start line and things like that. So the Handler's Choice, as long as it's agility-related, so obviously equipment-related, you want to work on your weave poles, jumping contacts, that sort of thing. Also, skill-wise, you want to work on your directionals, distance, start line. We cover it all, as long as it's related back into agility at some point for me. But the Handler's Choice I think is so much fun. Again, anytime I see an instructor in the school offering Handler's Choice, I always sign up at Bronze because it is such a wealth of information. You get to watch all these Gold students working on a ton of things. It's like having … if there's ten Golds, it's like watching ten different classes all at once. It's fantastic. I think Handler's Choice is fantastic. Melissa Breau: It's definitely, I think, one of the more undervalued classes on the schedule. Folks don't really realize that even if they were to hire an instructor for private lessons for six weeks, compared to the cost of Gold class they'd be in a very different situation, and they'd be working once a week, not several times a week. So basically anything agility-related that's not on the schedule specifically in the class they can come to you for. Amanda Nelson: That is right. That's right. Melissa Breau: Awesome. Well, for our last question here I want to try something new, and I'm hoping it goes well. Originally we had those three questions at the end of every interview, which was one of my favorite parts of doing a call with somebody, especially asking for favorite pieces of training advice, and I used to get all kinds of great feedback on them. Now that we've had all the instructors on a couple of times, it makes it a little bit harder to … we don't ask the same question over and over again. So I've been coming up with a new way to ask a new question for returning guests, and I think I've finally come up with one. You get to be the first guest to try and answer it, so no pressure! What's a lesson you've learned, or that you've been reminded of recently, when it comes to dog training? Amanda Nelson: Honestly, it just happened today. I'm at a competition right now — see, this is perfect timing. That's a good question. I'm actually at a trial this weekend. Nargles isn't competing this weekend, so I'm putting all my focus into Ally, and I found myself today … because I've never put a lot of pressure on Ally because I've let her blossom and become her own little doggie, but I've always had Nargles to run. I realized today, I was running Ally and I found myself just putting all this pressure on her of … now Nargles can't run for a couple of weekends because she's got a little injury, so I'm letting her have some time off, and all of a sudden I just found myself putting all this pressure on to “Well, you need to do this, and you need to do this, and we should be doing this.” I learned today, and I've been doing it for the past couple of weekends, patience and let your dog be your dog. Let them just be. I found she completely changed. She was really coming up, and I was running her and Nargles together, like, “Wow, look at Ally go, she's giving me so much good stuff.” Then all of a sudden these past couple of weekends, to me, until somebody pointed it out, I keep telling myself, “She's going backwards, she's not doing well, she's not doing her contacts very well, she's not doing this very well, and the big thing she's not wanting to change directions really well, she's regressing, I need to do this, I need to retrain this.” And then I took a step back, and a friend of mine was like, “You know, you're treating her like she's already this elite-level competition dog, and she's not. Because all your focus is on her.” Definite lesson I learned, but I think everybody — I think every dog trainer, every handler, no matter what sport — you find yourself falling into that trap of “My dog needs to be this. My dog is this old, and all these other dogs have all these titles, and my dog should have that title,” or “The littermates from that litter are all going to World Team, but my dog is not.” That sort of thing. I found myself doing that. I found myself going, “She's 5, she should do this and she should be this and we should be here.” I've never felt that way with her before because I've always had my other dog to focus on, and I found myself falling into that trap. So it's a lesson I don't quite know how to put into words. I guess the one word would be behind it, but I guess it's more of let your dog be who they are, I guess is what I'm trying to say in a roundabout jumble of words. Melissa Breau: I honestly think it's a great lesson, because I think anybody who's ever competed in anything, not just agility, knows that feeling. You start to get nervous before a competition, especially if you only have one dog that you're running. You get a little hyper-focused, you get a little hyper-attentive, you start to stress about little things that maybe wouldn't bother you if you had another dog to think about running before them, or something else to think about or focus on. I totally get that. That seems like it's something that will resonate big-time. Thank you so much for coming back on the podcast, Amanda! This is great. Amanda Nelson: Thank you so much. I love this. This is just fantastic. Melissa Breau: It was fun to chat. And thank you to all of our wonderful listeners for tuning in! We'll be back next week, this time we'll actually be back with Denise Fenzi! We'll be doing a short recap of Camp from this year, and I'll share a recording of her opening talk, so you won't want to miss it! If you haven't already, subscribe to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. CREDITS: Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty-free by BenSound.com; the track featured here is called “Buddy.” Audio editing provided by Chris Lang.

Summary: Heather Lawson is a Certified Professional Dog Trainer, a Karen Pryor Academy Certified Training Partner (KPA-CTP), a CGN Evaluator and a Freestyle judge. She has been training dogs and their humans for more than 20 years, after deciding that the corporate world just wasn't cutting it anymore. She is the owner of dogWISE Training & Behaviour Center Inc., where she teaches group classes for companion pets, competitive obedience, and rally, in addition to providing behaviour consults and private lessons. Next Episode:  To be released 6/8/2018, featuring Amanda Nelson, talking about introducing distance to your agility training! TRANSCRIPTION: Melissa Breau: This is Melissa Breau and you're listening to the Fenzi Dog Sports Podcast brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy, an online school dedicated to providing high-quality instruction for competitive dog sports using only the most current and progressive training methods. Today we'll be talking to Heather Lawson. Heather is a Certified Professional Dog Trainer, a Karen Pryor Academy Certified Training Partner (KPA-CTP), a CGN Evaluator and a Freestyle judge. She has been training dogs and their humans for more than 20 years, after deciding that the corporate world just wasn't cutting it anymore. She is the owner of dogWISE Training & Behaviour Center Inc., where she teaches group classes for companion pets, competitive obedience, and rally, in addition to providing behaviour consults and private lessons.   Hi Heather, welcome back to the podcast! Heather Lawson: Hi Melissa. Thanks for having me again. Melissa Breau: I'm excited to chat. To start us out and to refresh listeners' memories a little bit, can you just tell us a little bit about your dogs and what you're working on with them? Heather Lawson: I currently am down to just two dogs, two German Shepherds, Piper, who will be turning 3 at the end of May, and my old boy, Tag, who just turned 12 a couple of days ago. Tag obviously is now retired and having the good life with my husband when I take off with Piper. Piper, I'm working on confirmation with her and trying to get my last two points I need for my championship. At the same time, I'm also working and training her for obedience and rally and all the other fun stuff that I'm going to do with her. Melissa Breau: We chatted a little bit before this about what we were going to talk about today, and I asked you to chat about some of the fundamental skills that are covered in TEAM that can be reused over and over again throughout a dog's career to teach a variety of other skills — those things that serve as a building block. It's in the back of my mind ever since you did your webinar on all the different ways you use a chin rest to teach other skills, which I was a little blown away by the so many different things you do with chin rests. To start us out, for anyone who didn't join the webinar, would you mind just sharing some of those things that you use that chin rest skill to build out? Heather Lawson: The chin rest I ended up starting mainly because I needed a way to just get my dogs' focus. So I started using the chin rest for that, just to say, “Here I am, check in, look at me.” And then I started to turn it into a whole bunch of other things and realized I can use it for my cooperative care, which is your veterinary care and anything else that I have to do with the dogs. When, for instance, I'm administering medication to ears or eyes or anything like that, I can just ask for a nice easy chin rest and I can apply the medications. There's no fuss, no muss. My dogs are used to putting their head in the chin. I can also, as I said, use it for confirmation, so when I've got Piper in a show and I need to settle her down, or to stack her for presentation to the judge, I can just hold my hand out and she puts her chin there, and I can move her back and forth or keep her in position while I appropriately stack her legs and get her ready for examination. It also allows me to put out my hand for her to put her chin on for the judge to take a look at her mouth. She keeps her head there nice and quiet and I can lift up the lips, I've even taught her to open her mouth on cue, and he can take a look nice and easy, and he doesn't have to put his hands into her mouth. The other thing that I like the chin rest for is teaching the concept of holding still. Once I've taught the chin rest, or even a nose target, a duration nose target, I find that once the dog understands that concept of holding their nose or their chin rest somewhere, they actually can translate holding still to many other behaviors that I need them to do. I can also use it for the dumbbell hold by using the chin rest for the dog to place their chin as they grip the bar of the dumbbell, and it's an easy, just a slight, holding up. It teaches them quiet and allows me to gradually decrease my hand from that position. I can actually turn that chin rest into a nice close front as well. Teaching Piper, this is the first one I've used the chin rests for the fronts, with Piper is I wanted her nice and close, right up touching me, so I got her to target my hand, and then I transferred it onto my body, and now when she comes in for her fronts she is 90 percent straight most of the time. We're still working on it, but she's 90 percent straight most of the time and she's close. At this point she is touching me, but that's fine. I will take the points if she continues to touch me in a trial situation, but generally that will back off a little bit when you get different kinds of ring stress and things like that involved that dogs usually don't come in quite as close sometimes, but I'm still going to keep her working at that. So that's basically what I do with my chin rest. I've got all different kinds of things that I can use it for. Melissa Breau: Especially anybody who's ever trained a German Shepherd knows that getting the dog in nice and close can be a little harder than with some other breeds, with space sensitivity and whatnot, so that's awesome. Heather Lawson: Exactly. And that's why teaching her, it also, like, the chin rest was a really great exercise to teach her overall handling. She's not afraid of anybody coming in and doing all those different kinds of things that they need to do to her, because I've got that chin rest and she trusts that chin rest, and she trusts that I'm not going to let anything negative happen to her, and it allows me to do that much more with her. Melissa Breau: Would you mind just taking one of those examples and maybe walking us through it in a little more detail and breaking it down a little bit, how the chin rest helps you get that end behavior? Heather Lawson: Since I'm doing TEAM 2 at the moment, and it seems to be a bugaboo for everybody, what I like to use the chin rest for is, as I mentioned earlier, just the dumbbell hold. I teach the dumbbell take with teeth on it and with just a little bit of a tiny grip separately, obviously. Then, if I've got a little bit of a problem with, for instance, trying to shape the dog to hold it even more, I can turn around and take that chin rest, and I get the chin rest separately on its own, and I can turn around and take that chin rest and add it to the dumbbell hold. What I do is I will hold my flat hand as if I'm asking for a chin rest, hold the dumbbell just up above it, and as the dog comes in to take the bar on the dumbbell, I can just hold my hand up a little bit more, get that little bit of a hold, hold, get stillness, it allows me to mark stillness. That seems to be the hardest part for everybody to get is that initial stillness, and by using the chin rest behavior and adding it to the dumbbell take, it allows you to progress onto a really good hold from that point. Melissa Breau: I know another tool that you've mentioned you use in a number of different ways is a platform. I was hoping we could get into that and talk about platforms a little bit. What kind of things can you use a platform to teach? Heather Lawson: Oh gosh, there is so much that you can, and also, again, it depends on the type of platform. For instance, many people have difficulty in trying to create distance and to have their dogs actually anchored at that distance. Say, for instance, you're sending out on your utility go-out. Lots of times your dogs will go out, and then they'll turn around when you say “sit,” and they walk in three or four paces. That's not so good. A platform can help to keep them out to that anchored spot. You can use a platform for fronts. Again, depending on the type of platform you're using, you can use it to teach heel position, you can teach change of position and precision using the platforms. If I'm wanting to teach my dog different positions in heel position, such as a sit-stand-down all in parallel, having a narrow platform for them to perform those behaviors on helps them remain in that parallel position, and then, of course, gradually you fade it out. If I want to teach my dogs to go out to a specific spot anywhere, I can place a variety of platforms and I can do directional sends, and because they're heavily magnetized to them, and by magnetized I mean they have a huge reinforcement history on the platforms, they are just raring to go because that's what they want to do is they want to get there and they want to get their food. I use platforms a lot when I'm teaching outside of obedience things. I use it for a stationing behavior, so teaching stays, and things like when I'm doing some of my concept classes, where the dog has to return to a station and wait for their next direction. So it helps the dog when they're not getting any direction from you, they return back to station or to platform. Melissa Breau: If somebody out there listening is used to teaching something like a front or a heel position without a platform, what are some of the advantages of using one, or maybe even if they've already taught those positions, going back and teaching that platform skill later on, if they, say, taught a front without it? Heather Lawson: Say for instance you've got the issue of the dog maybe not coming in all the way. You can turn around and use a smaller platform to get a smaller, tighter sit in front, you can use a foot-to-target type of little tiny platform to bring the dog in closer. If you've got a dog that tends to be quite footsy, for instance in heel position when you're doing your stands, you can use the platform to teach them how to remain still and not move forward. If you don't normally teach with a platform, sometimes giving the dog something different allows them to grasp the concept. You know how sometimes a student will hear something from you numerous times, and you're going over and over and over, “I've told you that before, I've told you that before,” and then somebody will come along and say, “Oh, why don't you do this?” and it's the exact same thing that you told them, but just slightly different, and they go, “Oh, did you know so-and-so told me to do this?” and you're going, “Uh, yeah, that's what I was trying to tell you.” Well, sometimes I think by changing your equipment, or changing how you present a particular concept to your dog, sometimes that's what helps the dogs take that leap and get more precise, or understand the position, or understand the concept that they're not to move. I think by going back and maybe even taking a look at the platforms and seeing how you can help convey that concept, you're going to get more precision later on. Melissa Breau: Are platforms and foot targets basically the same thing? Can you use them in the same ways? I'd love to hear a little bit about what you can or can't do with one that you can do with the other. Heather Lawson: With the platforms they're generally longer, so the length of the dog, so that if, for instance, you put the dog down in a sphinx down, the dog would not be hanging off the edges. The platforms are generally quite narrow, so that, again, when the dog either sits or lies down, they are in a very, very specific position. Foot targets are dealing with just the front feet or just the rear feet. They're not the same thing, but they can do the same job, if that makes sense. When I want to fade out a large platform, I will go down to a foot target. With foot targets I generally can use, if the foot target is low, I can generally use them for fading out the platform, and if I'm teaching, for instance, position changes, you go down to a small foot target or even a flat foot target, and now you can ask your dog to change positions. My foot targets that I usually recommend for people to use are generally the size of a 2x4, and generally no wider than what your dog can actually put their two front feet on comfortably and stand at a normal position. Especially if you're teaching nice, close fronts, the dog comes and puts their feet on that front target, they can then sit properly. If you use a round foot target, like a perch that we use for pivoting, you'll find that the dogs kind of have a rear-end splay and they therefore won't sit as straight as they should be. So when I'm working distance and I want to get rid of the big platforms, I'll go down to a foot target. It's basically just a mini-platform, but we call them foot targets because it makes more sense to people. Melissa Breau: Right. What are some of the different types of platforms or targets that you use and some of the different ways that you use them? Heather Lawson: The long narrow platforms basically are for position, as I said, either straight in heel position or straight out in front of you. Same thing with the foot targets. They are used for the front and the rear feet. And then your perch, and I like to use a round perch when I'm first teaching the dog how to use their rear end for pivoting. Later on, if I'm working with the handler for footwork, I'll use a small square so that you can do quarter-turns to teach the dog also to turn with your body language, and it gets the handler ready for their footwork and how they're going to use their body to turn their dog. If I want to do a really nice tight sit in front and still use a platform because, for instance, the dog is coming off crooked, then I'll use a shorter platform, more so so that the only thing the dog can do is basically sit on this little platform, so you get a nice tuck sit and you can then get straight. Also, too, you can teach the dogs with the platforms for the various things, you can teach them whether or not you want to have a default stand on a platform, or whether or not you want a default sit on the platform. For long platforms I usually look for a default of a stand. If I'm using a small rectangular platform, I'm looking for a default of a sit. Foot targets, I look for a default of a stand on that foot target, and the same thing, a default of a stand, on the perch as well. Melissa Breau: I think a lot of people may recognize how valuable a platform behavior can be, but they don't want to haul all those different platforms everywhere they train. Can you use the same platform for more than one skill? How does that work? Heather Lawson: You certainly can, and as I said, with the long platform, you can certainly use it for a whole variety of skills and behaviors and positions. You just have to be very careful that you're encouraging the dog based on the behavior that you're training. So if you're looking for a front, you want to make sure that your dog has learned to plant their front feet as close to you as possible and then bring their rear in so you're getting a nice little tuck sit, versus standing and then you saying “sit” and they rock back, and now you've got a foot-and-a-half distance between you and the dog. You want to get that up as close as you certainly can. Some people actually make platforms where they can split them off, so that you've got a shorter platform for the sit and a longer platform that you can attach to it with Velcro that makes for the long platform that you need. And then you can take the Velcro and split it apart and now you've got a short sit platform. I know I've done that a couple of times. I made one like that. They're easy to make, easy to haul around. The platforms really aren't all that heavy. You can really make some very, very lightweight ones; you've just got to use your imagination. They're mostly made out of interlocking foam mats. My foot target for my dogs is actually a cork yoga brick that is generally, I think they're about 4 inches high normally, and I just went and cut it down on the saw, and cut it in half, so now I have about a 2-inch-high small cork platform that is heavy enough that the dog's not going to tip it, but it's not so heavy that I can't cart it around somewhere. It weighs less than a pound of butter. It's easy to chuck in my car and it's no big deal. An upturned food bowl — if you've got your dogs in your car, a stainless steel food bowl works for a perch. You can definitely use your equipment for a variety of different things, but most people can be discouraged by the fact that they do think that they have to carry a lot of stuff around. But most of the stuff, if you look at what your regular gear is, you can interchange a whole lot of things. Melissa Breau: One of the other behaviors that I wanted to talk through that I think maybe people don't immediately grasp the importance of is the TEAM tests behavior of a “fly,” or a behavior that teaches a dog to go out and around an object. To start out, before we get into the uses, for anybody who isn't familiar with the behavior, can you describe a little bit of the criteria for it in the TEAM test? Heather Lawson: For the fly, the handler sends the dog around an object. It can be anything from a cone to a pole to a garbage can to a chair, doesn't really matter as long as it's placed 5 feet away or more. The purpose is to teach the dog to go out and around and to work at a distance, so this is obviously useful for more advanced exercises. You can also use the cone to teach the dog how to find front and/or heel position from a variety of angles, especially if you're on the move with heeling. Basically, the handler stands 5 feet from the cone and cues the dog from heel position. The dog must start in heel position, which can be standing or sitting. They can send them with any combination of your hand, your arm, verbal, and/or even a forward foot motion is acceptable. The exercise begins after the handler cues the dog and then ends when the dog has circled the object 180 degrees, so that means the dog must go out to the cone, circle it, and be on their way back. As soon as they're on their way back to you, that ends the exercise. So it's not hard at all. It's just making sure that you're getting the dog to go out with one cue and that you're not moving until after the dog has basically come around the crest of the cone and is on their way back. It's a pretty easy exercise to do. It can be used for a whole bunch of things, and if you want to go into that, we can cover that too. Melissa Breau: Absolutely. That's my next question for you: What is it meant to teach and how can we use it? Heather Lawson: It's meant to teach, as I said, distance work. It also can be used to teach your dog how to stride out after a broad jump. I don't know if you've ever seen the dogs that kind of cut the corner of the broad jump and you think, Oh my god, they're going to slip, they're going to fall. I've seen that happen, where the dog has, and the only reason that they cut the corners is that basically they want to get back to you as soon as possible and get to that front position. So in order to get them to take at least two strides out, you can use a cone placed out in front of your broad jump as a way to pattern that two stride out by asking the dog to jump and then fly — most people use the word fly, or away, or around — you can teach the dog to go out, take those two strides, and then turn and come back to you. That eliminates that broad jump injury. You can also put the cones out in the beginning stages of teaching your directed jumping, so you can teach the dog how to go straight center and have a cone on either side, and it gets them used to coming around at an angle without interfering with your actual jumps or putting your jump stanchions out as you're working through those initial stages. You can also teach your dog to go out and around, and especially over a high jump, if you want the dog to go out, round the cone, and come directly back over the high jump without going around the high jump after they've picked up their dumbbell, which so often happens. You can also use it as a way to bring down a dog and give them a brain break when you're heeling. If you have a couple of cones placed out, and you're going to be doing some heeling, and it's going to be a little bit of a … maybe you're working on something that's a little bit more difficult for the dog, all of a sudden you can send them off to a fly, they can go out, run around the fly, and then they come back up and catch you in heel position. So you can make more of a game out of your heeling. You can send them over the jump, over the fly, come back to you, and if you take the cone and you use it, instead of just going out and around the cone and coming straight back to you, you can actually teach the dogs to do tight 270's in either left or right direction, and that you can do by either shaping it, clicking it, or what I normally do to start the dogs off is I will send them and then I will … whichever direction I'm going to send them, so if I'm sending them from my left and they're coming around and they're going to end up on my right, I will take off to my left, and all of a sudden now I've got a really nice, tight 270 to the left and the opposite way, 270 to the right. And you can get them going around the cones more than once, you can add multiple cones, which actually is a way to introduce figure 8s, you can stand in the middle and send your dog on their own figure 8s and their own cones, doing a clover leaf or any other types of things, and it gets them used to working around an inanimate object. For me, what I do is I have these little scarecrow people that I then stand in my cones, and I will send the dog out and around the cone so they get used to funny things that they have to work around. And I think it would be helpful … if I'm not mistaken, you do what's the … Melissa Breau:  Treibball. Heather Lawson: Treibball, yes. You could probably use it to teach your dogs how to go out and away to your left or your right, and straight out, if you needed to. So I'm sure that if people are doing sports like that, or even if you're doing agility, teaching your dogs to go for directional cues, cones are excellent because they're not interfering with your actual jumps, and it's just teaching them directional cues. Melissa Breau: That's certainly a lot of different ways. Heather Lawson: I know. I could probably come up with more, too, but it's just some of the things that are on the top of my head. My biggest one for me, for my own personal use, is I like to teach the dog to stride out a couple of steps after that broad jump, because I've seen dogs be badly hurt because they've slipped on floors, and if you're working a dog and you're campaigning a dog and they're jumping and they're doing the broad jump over and over and over again, that's a lot of concussion and twisting on that one right front leg when they land. So if they can start to land, start to go out straight, take a stride or two and go around, and then come back to you, that's much better for their health and long-term working ability. Melissa Breau:  One last question for you, Heather. Are there other behaviors that are super-versatile like the chin rest and platforming and even the send around an object behavior? Heather Lawson: As it pertains to TEAM there's all kinds of little behaviors that people don't really realize how much they're going to affect as you go through TEAM. If you're familiar with TEAM, which I know you are, there's ten behaviors in the very beginning, and then, as you get further on, you're actually using all of those little behaviors that you learned in the beginning. So in the beginning of TEAM we're very precision-oriented, and then as you get further on in TEAM we're less precision, and we take that because we know that you've learned how to teach your dog the platform, you've learned how to use the equipment, you've learned how to fade the equipment, you've learned how to use the core, the foundation behaviors in the very beginning such as targeting and sending out and away, bringing your dog into heel position, finding front, all these things. No matter which way you go in obedience, you're going to use all those different pieces, so there's not one super behavior; it's just that they're all super-versatile. I think what throws a lot of people off is, Hey, I've got to learn all these behaviors or I'm never going to get this, and really, once you've got the core foundations, you can pretty much do anything you want. You should be able to step into almost any kind of dog sport, take a look at what they have and what they're doing, and then take what you've learned with your send-outs, your targeting, your sends, your holds, your come into heel, come into front, and apply them to those specific behaviors that are required for that dog sport. So for me, versatile like the chin rest platforms and even send around an object, I use those all the time to teach the precision that I need so that I can now apply that and teach that concept. I'll say to my dog, “OK, you know that target thing that I kept sending you out to? Well, now I need you to go out there and I need you to stay out there while I go this distance away from you.” And the dogs are quite comfortable to do that because they have, as I said, that reinforcement history on those pieces of equipment, and when I take them away it's not a big deal because I've gradually decreased their requirement for those pieces of equipment and shown them that, “Yes, you can still do this even though I'm maybe fading the equipment out for you,” so that when we finally do get to the final exercise, they understand it completely. There's no holes. And if I have a problem, I've got something to go back to. I can take out that little piece, I can pull out that platform, I can show my dog again what I need from them, and show them that, ‘Yes, you can do that. Remember that thing that I taught you way back when? I need you to apply it here and I need you to do it this way.” And it's like a little refresher. If I glossed over all of that and didn't use those bits and pieces and put that foundation into place, I'd have nothing to be able to work with and I'd have to go back to square one each and every time I had a problem. This way, all I need to do is pull out a little bit and then reinsert it again. Melissa Breau: Awesome. Thank you so much for coming back on the podcast, Heather! Heather Lawson: You're very welcome. Thank you very much for having me. Melissa Breau: And thanks to all of our listeners for tuning in! We'll be back next week with Amanda Nelson to discuss introducing distance into our agility training. If you haven't already, subscribe to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. CREDITS: Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty-free by BenSound.com; the track featured here is called “Buddy.” Audio editing provided by Chris Lang.

Summary: Sara Brueske has been training dogs for over 15 years. She became a Karen Pryor Academy Certified Training Partner in 2011 and jumped into the world of professional dog training. Sara and her dogs work at Purina Farms in Missouri, where they demonstrate the sports of disc, agility, and dock diving for the public in over 400 shows each year. She and her dogs also compete nationwide. Currently, she is active in the sports of disc dog, agility, mondioring and dock diving -- plus, she's a trick dog enthusiast. Sara has also recently re-entered the world of competitive Disc Dog and was the 2016 overall UpDog International Champion as well as the 2017 UpDog Freestyle Champion. Sara believes in positive reinforcement not only for dogs, but for their handlers as well. Her biggest joy in training is watching a handler and dog become partners and grow as a team. Next Episode:  To be released 6/1/2018, featuring Heather Lawson, talking about all the ways you can use a chin rest, platforms and the "fly" cue! TRANSCRIPTION: Melissa Breau: This is Melissa Breau and you're listening to the Fenzi Dog Sports Podcast brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy, an online school dedicated to providing high-quality instruction for competitive dog sports using only the most current and progressive training methods. Today we'll be talking to Sara Brueske. Sara Brueske has been training dogs for over 15 years. She became a Karen Pryor Academy Certified Training Partner in 2011 and jumped into the world of professional dog training. Sara and her dogs work at Purina Farms in Missouri, where they demonstrate the sports of disc, agility, and dock diving for the public in over 400 shows each year. She and her dogs also compete nationwide. Currently, she is active in the sports of disc dog, agility, mondioring and dock diving -- plus, she's a trick dog enthusiast. Sara has also recently re-entered the world of competitive Disc Dog and was the 2016 overall UpDog International Champion as well as the 2017 UpDog Freestyle Champion. Sara believes in positive reinforcement not only for dogs, but for their handlers as well. Her biggest joy in training is watching a handler and dog become partners and grow as a team. Hi Sara! Welcome back to the podcast. Sara Brueske: Thank you so much for having me. Melissa Breau: I'm excited to chat. To start us out, I know it's a big crew, but can you just refresh listeners' memories a little by telling us a bit about your dogs and what you're working on with them? Sara Brueske: Sure. I have a lot of dogs. I actually have thirteen dogs, and yes, they are all house dogs. They sleep in my bedroom with me, they hang out on the couch, they watch TV, they do everything normal dogs do. Quick rundown of what I have: I have a couple of Malinois, a little Papillon, a shelter Boston Terrier mix, a couple of Border Collies, a Border Staffie, and a bunch of Koolies, Australian Koolies, and I actually breed Koolies as well. We're working on a whole bunch of different things. The Malinois are doing mondioring as well as dock diving right now. Famous my Malinois, also does Frisbee. The rest of the dogs do diving, they do agility, they do disc dog, they do pretty much whatever I get intrigued by. Sometimes it's scent work, sometimes it's tricks, sometimes it's the flavor of the month, the cool thing people are teaching. They do everything, really. Melissa Breau: That's awesome. I know you're a pretty big proponent of teaching lots of tricks, and I wanted to ask you what you thought of as the benefits of doing lots of trick training. Sara Brueske: There are so many benefits to trick training. My biggest one that I try to preach a lot is I treat tricks kind of like throwaway behaviors. I don't mean that in the term that tricks aren't important to teach, and they're not really cool to teach, and they don't have their own purpose, but the behavior we can teach to get all the kinks out of our training. They can teach concepts. If I want to teach a head target for heeling, for instance, and I want to shape that, I might start with some simple trick like a head target on a piece of glass so I can smush my dog's face up against it. I might do something really cool like a chin rest, or the head down, or “look sad” trick where the dog looks super, super sad. If I want to train something like, for instance, a really nice foot finish for heel work, I might teach my dogs to back around backwards around me first, because that gives them really good hind-end awareness as well. So there's a whole bunch of really cool tricks out there that can teach our dogs concepts for competition behaviors, and that way we're not really experimenting on the final behaviors that we want to have. I'm not going to work out the kinks on head targeting while I'm teaching the actual head targeting from a heel position, and for that reason that's why I call those throwaway behaviors. They're also really cool because they teach us about our dogs, and they teach our dogs about us, and they teach body awareness and balance and control. I mean, they're pretty cute, too. There's a whole bunch of cool tricks out there as well. So tons of reasons why we should do trick training with our dogs. Melissa Breau: You mentioned a little bit as you were talking about how you use one skill to teach the concept for another skill. Are there “foundations” for tricks the same way there are for other sports? And I'm pretty sure you're going to say yes, but I won't go there all the way. If so, can you share some examples of what that looks like? Sara Brueske: I feel like I should just say no now just to throw you off your track! “No, there's no foundations. You treat the behavior just as it is.” There's always foundations for every behavior we teach our dogs. The way I teach tricks, and the way the upcoming tricks class is going to be situated, is they're going to be broken up into concepts, so front-paw targeting, rear-paw targeting, hind-end awareness, head targeting, and then there'll be some miscellaneous tricks as well. What I do is I teach the concept of that, and then I can branch those into different tricks, and then those tricks can turn into different tricks and so on and so forth. I might start with something really cool like rear-paw targeting, and then teach back up from that. My favorite trick is the fake pee on something, where you tell your dog to go pee on something and they don't actually pee, obviously, but they look like they are. That all comes from the same place as rear-paw targeting, and that's used for wall handstands and actual independent handstands later on. It's all the same idea just branched off one off of another. Melissa Breau: My next question was going to be, How do you build on those foundation skills to create those more complex tricks later on? Do you want to talk about that little bit more, how that progresses, I guess? Sara Brueske: Sure. I'll use a different example here: pivoting. We all know pivoting from heel work, but pivoting is a huge component of a whole bunch of tricks that I use as well. Pivoting is where your dog's front paws are stationary on an upturned bowl, or something along those lines, and their back end rotates around it, kind of like a circus elephant. They rotate around a pedestal using their hind end. I use that for teaching my back-around, and my reverse leg weaves, and my scoot for disc, and even to teach agility weave poles. I can teach that backwards using that same concept. So where I do that is I would start with the dog pivoting around a bowl, fade that bowl, use it on a body cue on me, and then put it on verbal cue from there, and then I'd be able to use it for the agility poles later on as well. So it's a whole process, but it's all that same behavior just used in different ways. Melissa Breau: That's interesting, because those are pretty different end behaviors, backing around you and reverse leg weaves. I could see how they have similar components, but they're definitely different end behaviors. They're very different concepts. Sara Brueske: They're definitely different in the final product, but if you look at what the dog's actually doing, they're just swinging their back end around in different ways, and so therefore to the dog it's the same trick. It's just where they're doing that trick in relation to you, where they stop that trick, where they start that trick, and then obviously with the agility poles, using that as a prop outside of just the handler. Melissa Breau: Is there maybe a particular trick that you usually teach first? Is that something that differs depending on the dog? What are some examples of that? Sara Brueske: The tricks I teach, first I teach my core concept behaviors all at one time, obviously in different sessions, and that goes into my little puppy foundation program that I've developed. So the big ones I want to knock out right away so that I can start using them in different ways to teach behaviors off of them is head target — that one's really really important for me, chin rest, nose targeting, extended moving nose touches, because all that stuff turns into holds and stuff later on, and then to pivot, like I talked about earlier. I want those puppies really working their hind end as soon as possible so they get used to it. And then teaching them to shape with different objects is a huge thing. It's one of the first things I teach them to do, and so behaviors like all four paws in a box is super-important. It's something that … most dogs learn touch within a session, and then we can work with it from there. I think those are the important ones. The other thing I really try to knock out with my young dogs, my new dogs, right away is three different concepts as far as shaping. These aren't really tricks, but I want them to learn to shape in relation to me, the handler. So using a chin rest or a hand touch, for example, for that I want them to learn to shape with an object, so all four in a box, or the pivot work. And then I want them to learn to shape by themselves, so something like shaping a down or a spin that way. Those are really the three concepts I need my dogs to learn right away, regardless of what tricks or behaviors I'm teaching them later on. Melissa Breau: It's really interesting because it teaches them both to operate independently, to operate with an object, and to operate with you, and having a dog that's learned one really strongly before learning any of the others, it's very hard to get those mindsets if they don't learn the three simultaneously. Sara Brueske: Yeah, so going back to that point of what I teach first, I really look at the concepts I need first, and those are the three ones, and I basically pick my behavior based on that. It might be a different behavior for the dog previous to this one, but it teaches that same concept, so I look at that rather than which behaviors I'm actually teaching. Melissa Breau: You mentioned this earlier, but it's also in the description for your upcoming class — that tricks not only teach our dogs how to learn, but they teach us how our dogs learn, as well. Can you explain that a little bit more? What do you mean by that, maybe with an example? Sara Brueske: Sure. I'll start with the first part of that. Tricks teach our dogs how to learn, and so that comes to that whole conceptual learning that I was talking about, things like luring, teaching our dogs to lure, dogs have to learn to lure. Not all of them just follow that cookie in your hand, and not all of them know how to fade that lure. That's a training tool that we have to teach our dogs. Same with shaping. I've already touched on that. Things like reverse-luring or zen hand, all those things need to be taught to our dogs, and tricks are a great way to teach those tools to our dogs. That way, we can take those tools and teach a different behavior later on. As far as us learning about our dogs, every time we teach our dog a new behavior, we're learning something about them. We're learning about their frustrations, or we learn what they enjoy as far as rewards go, how they want that reward delivered. We learn the signs that teach us that our dogs are getting pushed too far. Are they getting to the end point of that session? How far can I actually push that dog? Do they do better with short sessions, like 15-second sessions with a couple of reps here and then switching to something else, or do they do better working on it for six or seven minutes straight, which I don't typically recommend, but some dogs are OK with that. And so tricks, again because they are that throwaway behavior — typically they're not things that we win ribbons or anything like that for, other than obviously the AKC trick dog titles and the Do More With Your Dog trick dog titles. But typically they're not behaviors that need to be done with such precisions that we're worried about screwing them up, and that's why I like using tricks to be able to learn from my dog and figure out how they like to learn. Melissa Breau: Do you have any examples of something, maybe a trick that you taught one of your guys that really taught you something about how one of them tends to learn? Sara Brueske: I want to use Brilliant, my Koolie, as an example because I've learned so much from working with her. She was the keeper from my litter, my first litter I bred. She has a wonderful work ethic, but she doesn't work like her mom does. Her mom is very, very fidgety, very, very fast, very, very crazy, and has a very low frustration tolerance as far as being right and getting that reward. Brilliant is methodical She is very thoughtful with her process. She's slow, but not in a bad way, just slow as in she thinks things out before she does it. Duration is her favorite thing to work on. So instead of really talking about a trick that taught me that about her, I want to talk about the type of tricks that I learned that she enjoys the most. I tried teaching her fun, fast things with food, like wrap around the cone, spins, and leg weaves, things that other dogs enjoy, and they're moving, and stuff like that. It was always slow, and it was getting me frustrated with her, like, “Why aren't you more like your mom?” And so I started playing around with other tricks, tricks that her mom isn't really good at, things that make her think, so stacking bowls, putting this inside that, nosework. All of those things that require a little bit more of a thoughtful process, Brilliant is really excelling at. While she was becoming older and her repertoire is getting larger and larger, it still has all of these other tricks that I didn't teach her mom, and that's because her mom didn't enjoy learning them. So it was a cool insight to her. She knows all of the stuff that her mom does, but she doesn't really enjoy doing those in the same way, but she enjoys the more methodical tricks, and so that's a cool thing that I've learned about her. Melissa Breau: That's really actually neat because it shows how different personalities come with different dogs, and it doesn't even matter that they're blood relations. Sara Brueske: Yeah, exactly. Melissa Breau: I know you do a lot with your dogs — you do a lot of different skills and train a bunch of different sports. How does the trick training that you do benefit or carry over into teaching them some of those other skills? Sara Brueske: There's a lot of ways. I've already talked about the conceptual theory, how I'm teaching head targeting with this behavior, teaching pivots and all that stuff. But I think that the more broad answer to this question is about our relationship. Because I haven't experimented in the behaviors I need for other sports or anything like that, those behaviors, my dogs' emotional response to those other behaviors, and their enjoyment of those behaviors, is always higher. So because my dog comes with the tools ready to learn things like heeling, or ready to learn things like sequencing for agility, because we've done the behavior chains with tricks first before fading out rewards and everything else like that in agility, I feel like that is the biggest benefit with tricks. Being able to use those to prep my dogs for the skills they need in other sports and helping our relationship that way. That way, when I go out there and I start doing our 20-minute mondioring routine without any rewards, my dog's ready to go, our relationship is stronger, they love and enjoy those behaviors without any failures or errors that come with teaching our dogs new things. Melissa Breau: Twenty minutes is a really long time. That's a long time to be showing. Sara Brueske: Mondioring's hard. Melissa Breau: The Tricks and Purpose class — what led you to create the class? Can you share a little bit about it? Sara Brueske: I love training tricks. It's definitely one of my favorite things. When I was 11 years old and I had my first Border Collie, he got washed out of agility because he ended up with a shoulder injury that ended his career before he was even 2 years old. I was 11, so I get home, I train my dog to do tricks, and it's still something that I've always enjoyed. It's something that's always part of my relationship with my dogs. Always in the back of my mind is, What else can I get this dog to do? What cool thing can we play around with? That's why I wanted to share the enjoyment I get from training tricks, and I wanted to show people the other side of trick training, the purpose behind it. I just spent the weekend with a whole bunch of production-sport people. People don't train in production sports, they typically don't cross-train, they don't train tricks for sure. So showing them that there is a purpose, there is a thing to be gained from training tricks, it's something that I wanted to share with the community as much as I can. Melissa Breau: Did you want to talk a little bit about what skills you're going to cover in the class? Sara Brueske: Like I said, we're breaking it down into concepts, and then we're going to branch tricks off of there. My vision for this class is to spend each week, so each of the six weeks, on all concepts. I think the first week is something like front-paw targeting, and then I'll show a couple of tricks you can do along with those things. That way, students aren't required to train a certain trick or anything like that. They can pick and choose those tricks, cover as many as they want. If they want to do all four, then go for it. If you only want to do one, that's cool too, as long as you get that concept of it done. So we do front-paw targeting, we do rear-paw targeting, head targeting, there's some miscellaneous fun ones in there, like we do this really cool trick in our shows, it's math, so you ask your dog a question like, “What is 2 plus 2?” and then the dog barks out the answer. I thought that would be a really cool one to share because it's a crowd pleaser, and it works really well for a bark and hold and IPO or Mondio too, by the way. Melissa Breau: That's actually neat. It's the crossover that most people probably have not thought about. Sara Brueske: Yes. My Malinois are the ones that do that trick because they have bark and holds. Melissa Breau: The other class that you have on the schedule is a disc dog class. Just to give people a little bit of background, how did you originally get into disc? Sara Brueske: I got into disc in a funny little way. I was an agility girl. I did agility. I loved agility with all my heart. I trained my Great Danes in it. I finally got this little Border Collie mix, a little rescue dog, and for some reason I was looking on Craigslist — this is the weirdest story ever; I don't know if I've shared it a lot — but I was looking on Craigslist, and somebody was selling a box of dog Frisbees from the local club — the local disc dog club. I'm like, hey, that seems kind of cool. I should probably go check that out. I always wanted a disc dog. I went and met up with this lady, and she sold me her box of dog Frisbees for, like, 30 bucks. I started throwing them for my dog and I'm, like, this is pretty cool. I watched a couple of videos on how to train different tricks, and I'm, like, yeah, my dog's really enjoying this. This was Zuma, eight years ago, this was Zuma, and I'm, like, this is really cool. I posted on Facebook a photo of her all happy after a session, her tongue was hanging out, and there's the disc with the Minnesota Disc Dog logo on it. Apparently I was friends with some members, and they commented, like, “Hey, we have a competition this weekend, come on out. It's Raspberry Fest in Hopkins, Minnesota. It's a UFO local.” I'm like, “All right, I'll go check it out.” I went, and we won first place in Novice Freestyle and Novice Toss and Catch, and I met some of the coolest people I've ever met in my life that are still my really great friends today, and that's what started my addiction. Melissa Breau: That's awesome. That's fantastic. It's kind of like random. There's nothing more reinforcing than going to your first competition and walking away with those kind of placements. Sara Brueske: Yes, it was a lot of fun. Melissa Breau: For anybody who's never been to a disc competition and isn't super-familiar with the sport, can you share a little bit about what some of the competition skills and games and stuff look like? Sara Brueske: The traditional disc dog format, and there's a few different organizations that have it, is they have freestyle, so that's what most people think of when they think of disc dog competitions. The dogs are vaulting off the handlers, they're doing flips, they're doing crazy routines set to music. That's my favorite thing. But there is so much more to disc dog than just that component. You can be super-successful in the sport without ever even doing freestyle. Then there's the other traditional games called Toss and Catch, or Toss and Fetch, or Distance and Accuracy, depending on the organization. This is a distance and speed and accuracy game, so you're throwing one Frisbee down the field to your dog and they're bringing it back. It's a timed event. You get extra points for distance and for accuracy. That's Toss and Catch. Typically there's a champion for both for Toss and Catch and then there's a champion for Frisbee or freestyle combined with Toss and Catch for an overall champion. So that's really cool. That's the main traditional format. Then there's a whole bunch of distance competitions, so who can throw the Frisbee the furthest. It's not timed. It's just the longest throw wins, typically, generally, in a tournament-style format. After that, there's a whole group of strategy games. Skyhoundz Disc Dogathon started this whole idea of strategy games. You have to get “this catch in this zone,” “that catch in this zone,” or it's a timed trial how fast you get three catches. And then this organization that really rocks, called UpDog Challenge, started … some friends of mine and some other people created this organization, and it's all strategy games. They also have Toss and Catch and they have freestyle. There's personal achievements you can win, it's really cool, there's different world championships and stuff like that. It's really beginner-friendly and it's a ton of fun. Melissa Breau: It sounds that way. For people just getting interested, what skills does a dog need to compete in some of the different games, or what skills could they be working on, maybe beginner skills, for all of this? Sara Brueske: The big one, obviously, is they need to have toy drive. Frisbee drive is obviously what they need to have. There are some organizations like UpDog that allow you to use any Frisbee as long as it doesn't have a hole in the center, so soft, floppy, fabric Frisbees work just fine, or whatever you normally use for any of the other competitions. So Frisbee drive is really important, obviously, since that's the sport. We want the dog to catch the Frisbee in the air, and that actually is a taught skill. UpDog allows you to actually throw rollers, which is a throw that's along the ground. It rolls on the ground, so it's little bit easier, depending on the games. Sometimes it's harder. We also want a handoff, so we want our dogs to bring the Frisbee back to our hand and we want the dog to drop the Frisbee at a distance as well. Melissa Breau: Interesting, because those are definitely different skills, bringing it back and dropping it where it is. Sara Brueske: Yes. It's kind of technical. And then there's a few other behaviors, like go-arounds, where you send your dog around behind you so that you can get a head start throwing the disc and timing it a little better, and little skills like that as well. Melissa Breau: In the class that you're offering, is it for beginners, is it for people who are a little more advanced, what are you covering in the class or how is the class formatted? I know it's a little different than maybe a typical class.   Sara Brueske: It's a little bit of a hybrid class. I wanted to offer a handler's choice in this dog class just because I know I've run the foundation class a few times and there's some students sitting in limbo. We don't ever have quite enough people to do a Level 2 all the way, but I know there's that group of people that want a little bit more. I wanted to do a handler's choice. That way, they can work on whatever they need to work on with their dog. But, at the same time, I always want to grow the sport, so I wanted to add a little bit of a foundation curriculum so it would be more of a bare-bones curriculum based on the foundations class. It won't include all of the things we work on in that class, but it will be definitely enough for new teams to come in, have a good idea of what to work on using that curriculum, and personalize their class based on that stuff. It won't be a class where you have to do everything in the curriculum. In fact, I'm expecting you not to. I'm expecting you to pick things that you want to work on, based on what you need. That way, you can utilize the time in the best way you can and hopefully get more out of the class that way. Melissa Breau: Awesome. It sounds like a lot of fun, and I know at least a couple of people who are looking forward to it. It should be a good one. Well, thank you so much for coming back on the podcast, Sara! This has been great. Sara Brueske: Thank you so much for having me. Melissa Breau: And thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in! We'll be back next week with Heather Lawson, and we'll be chatting about breaking down foundation skills and using them as building blocks to teach multiple useful behaviors. If you haven't already, subscribe to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. CREDITS: Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty-free by BenSound.com; the track featured here is called “Buddy.” Audio editing provided by Chris Lang.

Summary: Amy Johnson is the owner of Great Dane Photos and teaches the dog photography classes offered through FDSA. She is also the official show photographer for many of the premier agility events in the United States, including the AKC National Agility Championships, AKC Agility Invitational, USDAA Cynosport World Games, and NADAC Championships, as well as numerous local trials, regional events, and breed national specialties. She has photographed a wide variety of dog sports, including agility, obedience, rally, and conformation, and dog events, including FDSA camp.   Her start in professional photography came by taking pictures of her friends' dogs at conformation shows, and quickly grew to outpace her interest in showing her own dog -- and today she's here to talk to us about the reason a great number of people use the internet each day -- dog photos!   Links www.greatdanephotos.com Next Episode:  To be released 5/18/2018, featuring Sara Brueske, the benefits of teaching tricks … and a little bit about disc dog! TRANSCRIPTION: Melissa Breau: This is Melissa Breau and you're listening to the Fenzi Dog Sports Podcast brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy, an online school dedicated to providing high-quality instruction for competitive dog sports using only the most current and progressive training methods. Today we'll be talking to Amy Johnson. Amy is the owner of Great Dane Photos and teaches the dog photography classes offered through FDSA. She is also the official show photographer for many of the premier agility events in the United States, including the AKC National Agility Championships, AKC Agility Invitational, USDAA Cynosport World Games, and NADAC Championships, as well as numerous local trials, regional events, and breed national specialties. She has photographed a wide variety of dog sports, including agility, obedience, rally, and conformation, and dog events, including FDSA camp.   Her start in professional photography came by taking pictures of her friends' dogs at conformation shows, and quickly grew to outpace her interest in showing her own dog -- and today she's here to talk to us about the reason a great number of people use the internet each day -- dog photos!   Hi Amy, welcome back to the podcast! Amy Johnson: Thank you so much for having me back. Melissa Breau: I'm excited to talk about this stuff today. I know we want to chat about the behind the scenes stuff, but to start us out, can you share a little bit about some of the big events you've covered recently? What kind of events were they and what did they involve, a little bit of background? Amy Johnson: Sure. The most recent one I covered was actually just this past weekend. I was the show photographer for the AKC World Team Tryouts. While that's not one of the biggest events that I do, since it's a relatively small number of competitors, it still is really high profile. AKC sends all of their big guns to the show to be involved. It's not just a local trial. It definitely is a national-level event. I did AKC's National Agility Championships in March, those were held in Reno, Nevada, and I've got several more nationals coming up for later in 2018. Melissa Breau: As somebody who covers those kind of big events, how much traveling are you doing, how much travel is involved? Are you often on the road for this stuff, and how much of a factor is distance in whether or not you take a job? Can you share a little bit? Amy Johnson: I do a lot of traveling. There are times when my family wonders if I'm actually part of the family anymore, I think. Modern technology of texting and that stuff has been very good for that. For the local weekend trials — I say local, but the one that's closest to me is an hour away, but most of them are in the Twin Cities, which is about three-and-a-half hours south of me, the Minneapolis/St. Paul metro area — I travel even to just do smaller trials, the normal weekend trials. But those are just in Minnesota. I leave home on the day before, so if it's a three-day trial, if it's a Friday, Saturday, Sunday, I head to the cities on Thursday, usually set up on Thursday night at wherever the show is, and then shoot Friday and Saturday and run the booth on Sunday, and then I head home Sunday night and get home usually between 8 and 10 at night. The national events definitely are something that take me out of state and I'm gone a lot longer, but they're also much larger in terms of the number of competitors. The amount of business that I do at those is significantly larger than the amount of business I do at a local trial, so it's worth the extra distance and it's worth the extra staff I bring in. So I will travel out of state. All the nationals that I do other than World Team Tryouts this year were in Minneapolis, so that was a nice, close event. That was easy. AKC Nationals in March was in Reno. I'm going to Arizona, I'm going to Tennessee, I'm going to Orlando, so I get kind of coast to coast over the course of a year or two. Melissa Breau: That's pretty awesome. That's getting to see a lot of awesome places. Amy Johnson: Yeah, I do, and I drive everywhere because I am the person who has all of the gear. I have all the photography gear, but I also have all of the sales booth gear, so that doesn't pack up and ship very well. It certainly doesn't fit on a plane. I have a pickup truck and I fill it from tip to tail with everything I need and drive across the country, so not only do I see the places I'm going to, I also see everywhere in between, which sometimes is not very interesting. My dad's a retired geography teacher, so I think part of my desire to travel came from him instilling a love for the land that we live in, so being able to drive it rather than fly over it has been part of the appeal of the job itself, which is kind of weird, but what it is, it's a good part. Melissa Breau: That's kind of neat. I'm getting ready to do a crazy road trip myself, and there is something to be said for driving a long distance and having that time to explore on your own a little bit. I'd imagine you're working on a lot more of a deadline, so it may be a little more intense. Amy Johnson: Now that my kids are older I can extend my travel time by a little bit. I've never driven through the night. I need my sleep too much. I'll drive all day, but I've started to add an extra day or day-and-a-half so I can stop somewhere and do a little birding, see a local landmark or something. I'm actually starting to get off the Interstate and be able to have some time to explore places along the road, which has been fun. Melissa Breau: I'd imagine that makes it a lot more fun. You mentioned going all over the place, and I'd imagine that that comes with its own challenges. How do you prep for some of these big shows? What do you need to think through, especially if it's a facility maybe you've never been there before? What do you do? Amy Johnson: The national events or the events where I'm going somewhere where I've never been before is a little scary. My biggest concern, and the one that I can't do anything about to prep for, is the light in the place. A lot of the big events are held in state fairgrounds, coliseums, horse arenas, and they're generally fairly well lit, but for the human eye and even for video. But for photography, for still photography, to stop the motion of these dogs that are moving so incredibly fast, you need a lot of light, or you need a camera that can handle the relatively low amount of light that is found in these places. My stomach used to be tied up in knots when I would get to a place before I walked in the door and just go, Please let there be enough light, please let there be enough light. In fact, ten, maybe twelve years ago I walked into a horse barn, a horse arena, where a championships was going to be held and I almost — I had just driven for a day-and-a-half to get there — almost got back in my car and turned around and went home because it was so badly lit. I didn't, I've never done that, but the thought crossed my mind because it was just so incredibly dim. I pushed through and I did it, and the thing that I consoled myself with was, if I'm having this much trouble photographing in here, nobody else is going to be able to do any better. In fact, I'm going to do OK because nobody can photograph anything in here unless they have the kind of gear that I have. So I did OK. People were appreciative of the fact that I was there and stuck it out, and they understood the difficulties that I had getting images and that they just weren't up to my normal standards, but that was as good as anybody could have done in those conditions. The nice thing is, going back to that place after a couple of years, they had swapped out the lights, they had put in new lights, and it was about four times brighter than it was the first time I went in there. So I don't mind going there anymore, but it was terrifying the first time. So that's always my biggest concern. In terms of prepping, I have to arrange housing, I have to make sure I've got my contracts signed with the organization that's putting on the event, I have to line up my staff. These days I have a bunch of photographers that come and work for me, and then I also bring in a sales staff that works at my booth. So it's gone from me, myself, and I, or me and my husband, because in the early days he would come with, and he'd be in the booth and I would be shooting, and now it's evolved into I have some events where I bring in ten to twelve people — four to five other photographers, and then five to six booth staff. There's a lot of logistics involved with that. They come from all over the country. I have photographers coming sometimes from the East Coast and some from the West Coast and everywhere in between. A lot of my sales staff comes from the Minneapolis area because they are customers who have become friends who have become loyal salespeople for me. They know my product, they believe in me and what I do, and that makes them really good at selling the images. Melissa Breau: That's awesome. That sounds like a huge team. That's phenomenal that you've grown to that point where you're bringing in that many people. Amy Johnson: It's fun. It used to be that I would go to these big events and there would be two different photography outfits there, me and somebody else. We'd divide up the rings. I've always worked really well with other photographers. I enjoy talking to them, and the last thing I want to do is be snotty about “Why are you here?” or anything like that. There's enough room for both of us to play in this. But over the years I've been able to bring more and more photographers, and the organizations I work with have liked having only one point of only one photographer or company that is there, and so I've pretty much gone to being the exclusive photographer at all these big events. But part of the deal is if I'm going to do that, then I make sure I bring enough photographers and enough booth staff to fully staff that whole thing. We cover all the rings. I don't bring two other photographers and let two of the rings go without any pictures. If there are five rings, I have five of us. It's complicated, but it's worth it. Melissa Breau: Most of our listeners probably primarily compete rather than work at the events, and I'm sure that working at an event is super-different from being on the competitor side. I'd love to hear a little bit about how you balance things like trying to be in the right spot to capture that perfect image, but at the same time you don't want to be “in the way” or in a spot where you may be distracting for the dogs. How do you manage to blend into the background? How do you manage to set up in a way that allows you to accomplish both ends? Amy Johnson: One of my favorite compliments, it's a weird one, but one of my favorites is when somebody will come up to me and say, “I didn't even know you were here.” It's not that they didn't know that I had a vendor booth, and it's not that they didn't know there was a photographer, but if they don't see me in the ring that they were running in, that means I've really done my job well. It's one of those backhanded, weird compliments, but I always appreciate hearing it because then I know I didn't distract anybody. Making sure that I'm in a place — me and my other shooters, of course — that is always right at the forefront of my mind. I think at most events we're outside of the ring. There have been a few events where the boundaries of the ring are … at World Team Tryouts, it was held at a soccer arena, and so the boards that are the boundaries of the soccer field and there was netting above those — we can't shoot through that. I can't see through walls, and to put a net in front of the lens would be kind of a problem as well. So we do sit inside, but we keep our backs to the wall, just like a bar setter would. We try and make ourselves as small as possible. So we're outside of the ring in general. I'm always looking at the equipment and which direction they're taking the jump, or which end of the tunnel they're coming out of. I'm looking to see where  — and when I'm talking about “they,” the dog — I'm thinking about where the dog's sightline is going to move. If they come over a jump, will they see me as they're turning their head to look at the next obstacle that they're going to, or as they're turning their head from one thing to the thing that they're going to take that's close to me, are they going to look at me and find me to be a distraction? If they're far enough away, it's usually not a problem. They're so engaged in what they're doing, especially at national events, the level of competition is so high, these dogs are so accomplished, they're so prepared, the handlers have done such an amazing job of getting them ready that it's generally not a problem. But I still am really paying attention to the line that the dog will take and making sure that I'm not going to be something that will catch their eye and cause them to misstep, or to miss something, or to not pay attention to their handler. I try not to move very much, so if the dog is taking a jump and it's coming directly over the jump towards me, I've got my shot lined up, all I'm moving is my shutter button, and I wait until that dog has moved past me, or moved through that obstacle and a little bit beyond, before I move to set up my next shot, rather than click and then move while they still might be able to see me, because movement catches our eye. If you think about if you're watching something and there's just a little bit of movement inside of a bigger area of things that aren't moving, you're going to see that movement really fast, so that will grab your attention. So my goal is to not be the one moving thing in the dog's line of sight. Not being a distraction is a really, really high priority for me. Then, of course, the flipside of that is we have to get good shots. So I look at the course. Usually I manage to get hold of a course map so that I know what direction everybody's going and what the order of things is. So we're looking at … I know that I want to get a jump picture, I'm always prioritizing contact obstacles, so the A-frame, the dog walk, the teeter, if it's that type of a course. If it's a jumpers course, those won't be there of course. I want to make sure we get contacts. I want to make sure we get a good variety of jumps, not just straight-on but also maybe coming across at a bit of an angle. I'm looking at where the dog is coming from, the obstacle I want, and then I'm looking at where the dog is going next, because it's not just about, Oh, if I set up right in front of this jump, they're going to come right at me. They may not. If they're coming from the left out of a tunnel and then they're going to move to the right and then take the A-frame — I'm making this all up — if they're moving from left to right, then I have to make sure that I know where that dog is going to be looking, how the dog is going to be positioned over the jump when it takes it, and then set up my shot so that I make sure that the dog is sharp in focus when they are over the jump. Tunnels, it always helps to set up with them coming a little more straight out towards you, because then you can see them coming and take the shot at the right moment. There's all sorts of angles and lines, and even knowing the handler moves. I will watch the walkthroughs because I need to know if maybe a jump that I've picked out is going to give me a beautiful shot, except all the handlers are doing a front cross in front of it, so they literally are putting themselves in between me and the dog coming over the jump because that's the best way to handle the course. So it doesn't help me, I can't take that jump shot if I can't see the dog, so I'll watch the walkthrough and see how the handlers are thinking about handling it. And it might set up a really nice team shot where I can see both the dog and the handler in the shot at the same time, the kind where the dog's going one direction and the handler's already moving on to the next thing, going the other direction, and you get this real interesting dynamic and action shot that people seem to really like. Melissa Breau: Is it really possible to be in one spot and be able to capture multiple obstacles like that? How do you figure that out? Amy Johnson: Going back to the whole distraction thing, we don't move around the ring while we're shooting. The thing that takes so long for us to set up our shots is that — I'm saying “our” because I'm thinking of the big national events where there's five or six of us shooting — and usually it's a whole conversation of, “Did you see this?” and “Did you see that?” and “What about this?” and “Should we try that?” So it is a “we.” It's not just me being royalty here, even though I am kind of the queen! We plant ourselves in one spot for any given course, and once you're there, you're not moving. You're swiveling in your chair back and forth. The camera's on a monopod so you can swivel around it. The monopod's holding the weight of the camera so you're not carrying that the whole time. But we're sitting in a chair and don't move. If I find that the spot is just terrible because there's a judge in the way or a handler in the way — nothing against them, they're just doing their job — but I didn't anticipate something about the way that course was going to run, I may pick up after four dogs and move over or somewhere else that I find that I got better shots. But in general we are planted in one spot and don't move for the duration of that course. These dogs are on course for about 30 seconds, so I would die to have them on course for a minute-and-a-half, although I'm not sure how interesting that would be because that would mean the dog was really not having a good day. So a jumper's course generally is in the neighborhood of 30 seconds. The standard course where you get the contacts sometimes will go to 45, and that's for the big dogs. The littler dogs, you're talking 35 - 40 seconds for the jumpers and maybe 45 - 55 for the standard courses. But it's definitely, for the dogs that are doing what they're supposed to and not messing up, it's under a minute. So the trick is find a spot where you can get at least three solid shots. There are some courses where I can get five or six, and those always make me really happy. I get done shooting those courses and I'm kind of floating because I'm like, “Yeah, that was great!” It's like someone coming off the course saying, “That run, ooh, it just all came together, it really clicked, and it was amazing.” That's how I feel if I get a course where I can get five or six really solid shots. Oh, there's nothing like it. Four shots is a really good number. If we can get — again going back to a standard course — if we can get a jump, a contact, the weave, or maybe two jumps, a contact obstacle, and the weaves, that would be great because then we've got a little variety. Generally we will see the dogs more than once. I may not, I may not see any jump height more than once, but over the course of a weekend, since we are covering all the rings, then that means we'll see the dogs three or four times, maybe five if they get into the finals. So that means we've got plenty of opportunities, hopefully, to get a wide variety of different types of shots. The preparation, the knowing where the dog's going to go, I don't know all the fancy names of all the new moves that people do. I know basically what a front cross is, I know what a blind cross is, I know what a rear cross is when I see it. I couldn't do it, don't ask me to try to do it, but I could probably, if you showed me a video, I could probably name those crosses. I can't name all the other fancy stuff, but I pay attention to it because it helps me know how the dog is going to take an obstacle, if I know how the handler is going to direct the dog to take that obstacle. As a team we're always looking at the course and deciding, “What kind of thing do you think they're going to do?” Because I haven't actually ever run agility, then that means I'm at a slight disadvantage to a few of the other photographers that work for me. Two of them have run dogs, and so they are very valuable to me in terms of being able to say, “For this thing they're going to do this, so we'll want to consider moving to a different spot.” It's a group effort when we're talking about where we go, where we plant ourselves for any course. Melissa Breau: How much do you really need to know about the sport you're photographing to be able to make informed, intelligent decisions? I'd imagine that that's been a learning curve. Amy Johnson: I shot my first agility trial knowing nothing about the sport, so it is possible to do it. I shot a lot of jumps because those are obvious. It makes sense. The dog is going to go over the bar, and you can follow the numbers and you can figure out where they're going to go. In the most basic sense, it is absolutely entirely possible to photograph agility or any other dog sport without knowing anything about it. Now, does that mean that's the best way? Probably not. I know that I can get shots these days that I never could have anticipated 18 years ago when I started in this. I know that my reaction time is faster, my ability to visualize how the shot's going to look before the shot even happens is much better than it was 18 years ago. The more you know about your subject — and this applies to any type of photography; this doesn't just apply to dog agility photography — anything you can know about your subject, if it's something that's alive, if you know more about its behavior, if you know more about its environment, if you know more about its habitat — I'm thinking about birds or wildlife — the more you know about your subject, the more you can predict what might happen, the better you're going to be able to capture that moment that you want. I also do bird photography, as all of my students know. One of the things that I've really worked hard on, especially this past winter, was getting some flight shots of a Great Grey Owl. I've been watching these birds for several years, and I'm starting to pick up on the really subtle signals that they give before they take off to fly. There's the not subtle one of they tend to poop before they fly. That's the one that everybody jokes about, “Oh, the bird just pooped, it's getting ready to fly.” But they don't always do that, so it's not always that obvious. They start to shift around on their perch a little bit, they might fluff their wings out a little bit, they turn their head, or you notice that something catches their attention. All these little body movements are giving you a clue that the bird is about to take off, so make sure that you have your shot lined up for the bird taking off. Same thing with agility. If I know where the dog's coming from, I know where the dog's going to, and I know basically how the handlers are going to be handling the course, I can generally predict exactly how those photos are going to look within a range. There are always outliers, and unfortunately, if a dog does something really unexpected, we might miss that one jump shot if they jumped really high, or they crashed the bar, or if they don't even take the obstacle, or they do something weird to mess up their timing. So the outliers create problems for us, but for the most part, as long as we have a sense of the rhythm and the flow of the course and understand what the dog's going to do, then that greatly increases the likelihood that we're going to get a good shot. Melissa Breau: You mentioned earlier the idea of getting a couple of different obstacles, maybe setting up so that you can get a shot of the dog and the handler. Are there types of pictures that competitors seem more likely to buy? Are there things that they are looking for? Are those what drives you to get those specific shots, or is it more about what shots you can get that are going to be good shots? Amy Johnson: I mentioned I've been doing this for 18 years, and for every trial I've been to, if I had only taken the shots that I thought people would buy, then I would have been wrong for at least one or two people at every single trial I've ever shot. Just like with anything, people have a huge variety of opinions. Some people really like the jump shots where the dog is coming right towards you. Some people really like the jump shots where the dog is kind of slicing the jump and taking it at an angle. Some people hate the pictures on the contact obstacles. Some people love them. It is across the board. Anything I get, I can get a person who loves it and a person who hates it. My goal, because of that, is to try and get the biggest variety possible. So we try and make sure that there's some sort of teamwork shot in the mix. We want to make sure that we hit all the contact obstacles. Now, we aren't always successful, because we're restricted to what sides of each ring we're allowed to be in. For instance, at Nationals in Reno in March, they had three rings running in the main arena, and then one ring was off in another section. Well, those three rings were touching in the middle, so to speak, so we could access the backside of all three rings, we could access the side of Ring 1 and the opposite side of Ring 2 — excuse me, Ring 3 — but all we could access on the middle ring was the backside. If the course isn't set up where I can get a shot of an A-frame from that side of the ring for the whole weekend, like, I never get that shot, then those dogs that ran in that ring, maybe we don't have A-frames for that jump height. The goal is always to get that variety working within the boundaries of the courses and the way they're laid out, and again working with that idea that we don't want to be a distraction. I have passed up shots that would be awesome shots, but I can see that where we're sitting is too close to another obstacle. Even if we're not trying to shoot that obstacle, but it's the end of the weave poles and where I want to be puts me too close to the end of the weave poles, I won't set up there because I know weave poles are a touchy obstacle. Not every dog is as solid on the weaves as they maybe would be on a jump or a tunnel. The last thing I want is for a handler to come off the course and say, “Man, if that photographer hadn't been there.” We're great scapegoats. That is the one thing that I hear that makes me want to cry, but it also drives a lot of what I do. I don't want to be a scapegoat. I don't want to be the reason why someone thinks their run didn't go well. Even if I didn't have anything to do with it, I have to avoid that perception. I've passed up shots because I don't want to even have a hint of being in a place where someone could say, “Well, if that photographer hadn't been there, then we would have qualified.” But going back to the idea of the variety, it's all over the board, and I wish that there was a way to narrow it down to, “Oh, people only like jump shots.” “Well, great then, we'll just take the jump shots.” But you know what? That just is never going to happen. And actually I think I would get a little bored, too, if all I did was the jumps. So yeah, yeah, so it works for everybody. Melissa Breau: We've talked before, I think you actually included it in one of the webinars you did, about the challenges of capturing black dogs in particular. I'm assuming you don't have a ton of time between competitors at some of these events, so how do you work with the variety of the dogs you may see in the ring, both based on color and size and what have you? How do you have to adapt to that? Amy Johnson: The one thing we do at the national events … generally the light in these arenas, especially these days with modern LEDs and the modern fluorescents that don't have the same kind of patchy flicker … older lights are a nightmare to deal with, but the newer lights are quite nice. So we set our exposure for each ring. Like at Nationals, where we had three rings in the main arena, the exposure settings were the same for all three of those rings. We had different exposure settings for the fourth ring that was out in another section, but we set the exposure settings and then leave them alone. I don't try and adjust for a black dog and a white dog, and the biggest reason I don't is because I will screw it up. Like you said, we've got so little time, and if I'm trying to make adjustments because, oh, I see it's a black dog coming up — and I can't always actually see the start line very well from where I am, depending on where I'm shooting — so if I'm trying to adjust that and I say, “Oh, it's a black dog, let me adjust my settings,” great, shoot the black dog, looks wonderful. Then a white dog comes to the line and I forget that I've adjusted for the black dog, then I shoot the white dog at the black dog's settings, and I've screwed them both up, or I've screwed up the white dog. So I prefer to find that middle ground. The way I set the cameras is that we shoot in RAW, which is a file type that is very easily manipulated in Lightroom and Photoshop, so I can brighten the dark dogs and I can darken the light-colored dogs, because it isn't really off by that much. It's much better to pick that middle ground, because I have other things I would much rather put my brain power to, like making sure I get all the shots I want, and making sure I know what dog is in the ring, because we do a lot of data collection, and we can get to that in a bit. I don't worry so much about the color of the dog. What I do worry about — you mentioned the height of the dog and I'll mention the way a dog runs. The heights at a national event are nice because I may only see one jump height for most of the day, or half the day at least, so I might only have the 16-inch dogs. All of those dogs are jumping, they're very similar height, which means if I am visualizing things correctly, then that shot I've got is going to work for all the dogs I'm going to see. Little dogs, we can line things up. We can use a longer lens for a ring that has just little dogs in it, and shoot much tighter, rather than having to worry about using a lens that's going to work for everything from the 4-inch dogs all the way up to the 24-inch dogs. That's one of the things that's very nice about a national event versus a regular local event. When I'm setting up shots for my local events, I have to accommodate all the different jump heights. Sometimes at a walkthrough I'll go grab a different lens, but usually I can do everything with the same lens. The last piece of this, though, with the variety of dogs, goes back to understanding your subject, and that is, I need to understand how different breeds run and how different breeds take obstacles. What I mean is, if you put a Border Collie on the course, they run very efficiently. They run low to the ground, they come in really tight to those weave poles, and they just skim right over the top of the jump bars. They come tight up to the jump standards. They run very small, and I don't know if that makes sense, but they're very efficient, they're very compact in that respect. Then you put a Doberman out on the course. They run very upright, so you've got long legs. If they have cropped ears, you've got to make sure you're incorporating that into the frame. They take up a lot more vertical space in an image than a Border Collie. So even though they may be jumping the same jump height, I have to frame the shot completely differently for a Doberman than I do for a Border Collie. Now, there are exceptions. There's a Doberman in the Minneapolis area that runs like a Border Collie, and when he comes to the line — I am not joking, this dog is phenomenal — when he comes to the line I have to literally tell my brain, This is a Border Collie, this is a Border Collie, this is a Border Collie, because if I shoot him like a Doberman, he's only going to be taking up about the bottom third of the frame because I added extra space to treat him like a Doberman. I can't shoot him like a Doberman. I have to shoot him like a Border Collie. Poodles are another one that run very upright. Great Danes, the few of them that are out there running, run very upright, and I have to make sure I have enough vertical space for them. The little dogs, there's less variety in that way. Of course there's always the Jack Russell Terriers that think they should be jumping 20 inches, even though they only jump 8 or 12. There's an advantage that my local clients have that my national clients don't, because I know my local people. I know how their dogs run. I know the little dogs that run as if they're 20-inch dogs, and so I can be set up for that. I have pictures where all I have are toes in the frame because the top of the dog is cut off at the top because it jumped so high. I have the jump bar in there, and then I have about 8 inches of space, and then I have toes. Sometimes those are really funny shots and the people really like them, but not at a national so much. Understanding the breed, and even if it's a mixed breed, you still can see, you watch the dog go over the first jump and you have a clue about how they're going to run the course. That's another part of knowing your subject. You've got to understand how the different dogs run, and that's just something you learn after observing dog after dog after dog after dog. Melissa Breau: Can you walk me through what a typical day looks like at one of these major events from your perspective? Amy Johnson: One of the things I always want to know is what time does the building open, because I want to be there as early as I possibly can. The reason for that is I want to have as much time as I can to see the course, to look at the different angles, to look at the way it's going to run. If there's a course map, if there are multiple courses in the day, hopefully they put out course maps that are for everything, and so then I can start looking ahead. If we're going to have a course change in the day, I can also start looking ahead for the second half of the day, when you need to switch, consider this, this, and this, so I can prep my team for what they're going to be looking for midday. I get there, and usually a couple of my team of my photographers will be there that early with me, and we look at the courses and start thinking about what shots will work. Once everybody gets there, we make sure everybody's got their chairs, everybody's got the right lens, because if they've got little dogs, they might need a 400mm, if they're shooting things that are all the way across the ring, they might need a 400mm lens, if they're shooting things that are closer, they probably need a 300mm. Everybody keeps track of their own camera body for the week, but we swap the lenses around, depending on what jump height and where the obstacles are physically located in the ring, compared to where you're sitting. There's a lot of … you've got to make sure your cards are formatted. One of the things that is key to the way I do business is that we keep track of what image numbers belong to which dog. The way we do that is we have the running list loaded into a spreadsheet on an iPad, and as you're shooting, you're looking in the back of the camera and recording the image numbers that correspond, the last image number that corresponds to the dog that just ran. We've got data collection that goes on as you're shooting, so we've got to make sure that the iPads are charged, that camera batteries are charged, cards are formatted, cards are loaded in the camera. I have sat down — because I'm trying to get everybody else situated — sat down and realized I don't have any cards in my camera, so then it's a quick scramble. Once the shooting starts, then things settle into a rhythm, and time just becomes weird, and you keep going and you fall in to … your muscle memory takes over. After four or five dogs, you have the pattern, and you don't have to think so hard about I'm going here, oh wait, then I've got to go there. You just settle in. The day … you are always happy to get a break, but they're never very long. We'll shoot from probably 8 o'clock in the morning — earlier on … some nationals start the day even earlier than that — 8 o'clock and sometimes we'll go on until 4 or 5. We've even gone until 6. In fact, World Team Tryouts started shooting on Saturday morning at 7:30 and finished that night at 7. That's a little bit of an extreme, but ten hours of shooting isn't … eight to ten isn't out of the realm of normal. But then the day doesn't end, so we've got to go back to the house and download images, and I have some data stuff, so I suck into my computer the spreadsheets and everybody's images, and through the magic of the scripts that my husband has written for me, we come out on the other side with images that are sorted into directories named with the dog's name. So if I click on Ace Smith, then inside of that folder are all of the pictures that are of Ace Smith — or we hope so, if we've done the data entry correctly. Then we take the time to edit the photos, and editing meaning deciding which ones to keep and which ones to delete, not post-processing in Photoshop or Lightroom. None of that happens. We go through and delete all the bad ones, because there are bad ones. There are lots of bad ones. Keeper rate is probably about 25 to 30 percent of the images are kept. On an eight- to ten-hour day I probably shoot minimum 5000 images, probably closer to 6 or 7. On a day where I've got one of those courses where I've got six shots and they all work really well, I can get up to 8000 images, and then we go through and delete the junk, because there's always junk. I don't want my customers to see the junk. Some stuff does slip through that I would probably prefer not be out there, but for the most part we get rid of a lot of things that just don't need to be seen by anybody. We keep the best of the best, and that's part of what keeps people coming back for more. So the day starts really early. I have trained my booth staff to do editing so we can distribute the images, so I may not have to do all my images. I can split mine between me and someone else. All my photographers, we generally can split so they're only doing half and then one of my booth staff is doing the other half, and that's made a huge difference in how early we can get to bed, because we've divided that work so much. For Nationals I was in bed by 10 or 10:30, but there are times when I've been up until midnight or 1:00 and then had to get up at 4 or 5. You just run on adrenalin at that point, there's not a lot else. And coffee, lots of coffee. I often wish that I could sit ringside and just have a caffeine drip, but nobody's offered to do that for me yet. So adrenalin and coffee. Now, those are the days where all we're doing is shooting, like on the first day of the event. On the Saturday and Sunday of an event, I also have to make sure that the booth gets up and running. Not only am I trying to look at courses and get everybody set, I'm also trying to get the booth. My staff is really good about doing most of it, but there's still some of the computer stuff that is really just me, so I have to make sure that's all working properly. I also have two of my photographers who have become regulars know how to set up the shots the way I want them. I'm getting much better at delegating. It's very hard, but I'm getting better at it, delegate that stuff, getting the shots set up, to them, and then I concentrate on getting the booth up and running, and then hopefully they've even found a spot for me, so I just sit down and start shooting and hope that they did their job well, which they always have. Melissa Breau: That's important. Having good people is an important piece of the process. Having photos available next day for competitors — you mentioned that's not the norm, that's not standard. What led you to make the decision to do that? You talked about being up really, really late the night before, so I'd love to hear what led you down that path. Amy Johnson: There's a lot of things that I do that are not standard. Being willing to stay up late and edit pictures until all hours of the night is the biggest one, I guess. Sorting by dog name is a really big thing to me, and it's not something that most other agility photographers have done. The ones that I've trained are doing it, and it's a very small number, but it's growing. Usually it's sorted by jump height or by group or by arm band number, something. The decision to do that is based on I want my customers to spend their money, not spend their time hunting for their dog. I want them to be able to find their pictures within 30 seconds of walking up to one of my viewing stations. In that 30 seconds they're just typing in their name is all they're doing. And it should — if all their data is correct — it should pull up their dog's pictures as soon as they hit the login button. That makes them feel important, too, because we took the time to know who they are and who their dog is, and to find a way to match those up and to not waste their time with, “Well, here's all 500 20-inch dogs that ran yesterday. Go ahead and look through them and see if you can find your Golden in amongst the 500 other Goldens.” I think that's not respectful of their time as a competitor, and it's certainly not respectful of my sales booth time for my employees to be looking for … to help these people find their pictures, because by the time they find their pictures, then they're exhausted — “Oh, well, here they are. Now I have to decide what to do with them? Really? Oh.” They've made decisions all week or all weekend. They're trying to decide how to handle their dog, they're trying to decide what to do that is best for their dog. I don't want to add to that mental load by making them hunt for their pictures. That's the motivation for me is I think it's a better use of all of our time if they can find that stuff really quick. A lot of agility photographers or dog event photographers will actually find a way to have images up within even on the same day, but the editing piece for me is too important, and so I want the chance to see all the images, or to have a photographer look at all the images, before they go in front of my customers. I sometimes talk about this whole organization is kind of like I'm the chef, and all of the food that comes out of my kitchen has to taste like my food. Even if I'm not the one who actually cooked it, it's still my food. It's still got to taste like my food. So my photos need to look like my photos, whether or not I was the one who actually clicked the button. I'm kind of a control freak. “Kind of” — yeah, right. I'm a total control freak and my students know that. It's the whole premise of how I teach photography is, “You can be a control freak, too, and take better pictures because of it.” Anyway, I don't want to rush through the editing process. I would much rather save it for the evening, and then we get it done and we get it done well, and then my customers are only seeing the best images. Those two pieces: the sorting by dog and then the edit at night and don't have things available until the next day. For day three, if we're shooting on a Sunday, that makes things a little bit complicated, but we've found ways to help people, “Well, I know I want to buy a collage, but I haven't seen all the pictures yet,” we have ways to work around that. Melissa Breau: I'd imagine that at some of these big events, things are pretty high stakes and pretty high pressure. You joked earlier about slipping a memory card in last-minute, but have you ever had something just go totally wrong, and if so, will you share? Amy Johnson: Sure. There's always things. And there are so many moving parts to this that it's amazing in some ways that there aren't more things that go wrong. There are a couple of things that come to mind immediately because they're the most stressful to me. There's a lot of things that could go wrong, but I have learned to just let it roll off me, not a big deal. But the two things that could go wrong are if a camera breaks or if my software in the booth goes a little wonky. I did actually have a camera break. My camera, the one I was using, suddenly quit working in the middle of the last day of Cynosport last year in Tennessee. Literally it just … and found out later, after I sent it in for repair, the whole mirror assembly inside of the camera just came apart. I don't have any explanation for it, but it wouldn't focus, the shutter button couldn't make the camera take a picture anymore. Well, I'm a huge believer in backups, and that applies to both computers and it applies to cameras. So I had a backup camera. I called up to my booth, and one of the guys came down with the backup camera. I probably missed maybe ten or fifteen dogs, I mean it felt like forever, but it wasn't. It just felt like, Oh my god, there's another dog that went, oh my god, there's another dog that went. So I missed dogs and that about killed me, but we made it through. I had a camera up and running again in probably ten or fifteen dogs, finished out the day, no problem. That is the only time it's ever happened. Oh no, I take that back. It did happen with actually a rental camera just was not working right at another show many years ago. So that doesn't happen a lot, but I do have backup gear. I can't come to one of these events and say, “Oh, I'm sorry, we can't shoot that ring because we don't have enough cameras because one broke.” That's just not acceptable. It's not like we have double the number of cameras, but we certainly have, even if everybody's shooting, there's always at least one backup. My software that is running in the booth is actually custom software that my husband wrote because he's brilliant. So we have this point of sale software, and because it's custom, it's also a little bit … it's not finicky, but I'm the only one at the show who knows all of the idiosyncrasies and all the ins and outs. If something happens, if it's not just the wireless network going down or the printer not responding, if it's anything more than that, then it usually involves me having to go up there and fix it. Both at the Nationals both this year and a year ago, I had one of my booth staff come down and hover behind me and say, “Amy, the pictures aren't coming up. What do we do?” Thankfully, this year, one of the other rings was idle, and so the shooter for one of the rings came over and he took over for me, and I was able to go up to the booth and fix it. Those are the two things that stress me out the most: if the software goes wonky or if a camera breaks. There are other little things. Someone's camera wasn't set up with the right file format, and there are ways to work around that. We've never lost images because of it. I don't know. There's always weird things going on, but the major things are if gear goes down or if software goes down.Melissa Breau: What other behind-the-scenes things are there that competitors or novice photographers might not have thought about? Any advice for others who are interested in getting involved in this stuff? Amy Johnson: The first thing I'll say, the behind-the-scenes, it is fun, it's really fun, because I always get there a day early to set up the booth, so I'm kind of in on the setup. I'm watching, whether it's USDAA or AKC or NADAC, I get to see some of their behind-the-scenes stuff as well. The people that I work with in each of these organizations are amazing, and we have a really good working relationship, and it's always, “Oh, it's so good to see you again.” The thing that impresses me is how much they are as concerned about making sure they do what's best for the dogs as the handlers are concerned about doing what's best for the dogs. Not everybody agrees with every decision that an agility organization makes, but the message that I keep seeing over and over and over every time I work with them is that they're in this for the same reasons. I hope that comes through to exhibitors, but I know that that can get lost in the chaos sometimes. My photographers and I live and die on those courses with all the dogs. We sit there and see every single dog that runs. We see everything that happens, and we rejoice in the great runs and we are destroyed a little bit with every run that doesn't go quite as planned. We feel bad, and if we could get the dog through the course ourselves, we could probably just will it to happen, because we are your silent cheering squad, whether you know it or not. If there's a photographer, one of my photographers, at your ring, they are cheering for you silently, because we don't want to distract the dog. We are thrilled when you do well, and we love watching your runs, and we love watching the cool things that happen, the relationships that we see when it all comes together, or you get to the end of your run and it went well or it didn't go well and it doesn't matter and you're having a good time with your dog. You will always have at least a cheering squad of one when we're there. A weird thing that I'll throw out there — this doesn't happen so much at a national, but at my local shows I've had people approach me and say, “Can you just sit there and take pictures and let me get my dog used to the click of the camera?” I would just say that I love that, because rather than being a scapegoat — we talked about that earlier — this is someone being proactive and saying, “I want to help my dog work through this,” and I am thrilled to death to be able to help with that. We're not scary people, even though we have these big, giant pieces of metal and glass in our hands. We're really not scary people, so come and ask us to help, and we're happy to do so. Novice photographers, the biggest thing you can do is learn how your camera works, like, really well. Not just where the shutter button is, and not where the auto mode is, but learn how it works. Learn about exposure, learn about how to capture motion, and learn about the behavior of your subject. Make sure you know your subject. If you're thinking about going into dog events, don't feel like you have to know it all at the very beginning. Yes, you need to know how to take good pictures, but in terms of actually doing the business side of it, make sure you do all the things that you have to do from the legal standpoint of course — register as a business and sales tax and all that good stuff. But you don't have to have a full booth. You don't have to have twenty-five different products. Just start somewhere. Go take pictures, try things out, see what works, see what doesn't, and then the next time you go do a trial, you do a little bit better. And eventually, 18 years later, you find yourself at a national event managing eleven other people and you wonder how it happened. But start with baby steps. Everything I've done in this business has been very incremental. I didn't suddenly go from just me to having a staff of twelve or thirteen. It's been very gradual and very incremental all along the way. Melissa Breau: To round things out, where can people go to learn a little bit more about this stuff? Amy Johnson: Isn't it amazing, but FDSA offers photography classes! Melissa Breau: Imagine that! Amy Johnson: Imagine that! If you don't know anything about photography, I will say Shoot The Dog, which is my beginner intro course, is coming up in June. That's a great place to start. If you know a little bit, just enough to be dangerous, then you might consider doing Chase The Dog, which is my course on how to photograph dogs in motion. If you don't want to take courses through FDSA, that's fine, or if you feel like you're beyond that, that's fine as well. I do offer mentorships on an informal basis, but I have had students come through my classes who are now working for me. The way that happens is they take my classes, they do well — these are Gold students; you can't do this at Bronze because I have to be able to see your work. But if you think you want to do this, frankly, the best way to get on my radar as someone who has the chops to do this is to be a Gold student and to come through that way. I have students who came through all my courses and came to a national event and shot the event but didn't have their images included for sale. It was still just me, or still just my regular staff. But then I got to see the images and we could evaluate. The next time it's now you'll be double-covering a ring and you just are responsible for getting one or two shots, as opposed to the normal four to five shots that a full-fledged photographer would do. It's something that has worked really well for several of my students. I'm on … I think number three is working with me now. So it's a really good way to get into the business. It won't help you develop a clientele locally, but it will let you see an event photography business from the inside, and you can decide if you don't want to edit photos at night in terms of when you do your own business, you can see what pieces of my ideas you would want to retain and what pieces you maybe aren't interested in doing. It doesn't hurt me. You have to build your business the way you want to build your own business. But that is something that I've slowly been offering on a very limited basis to students that have expressed that interest. That's kind of the advanced level of stuff, but definitely if you are interested in photography, start with Shoot The Dog, and then Chase the Dog definitely is the one where we really work seriously on the dogs in motion. And not just for agility. We try and cover all sorts of different types of motion. Melissa Breau: Awesome. Thank you so much for coming back on the podcast, Amy! Amy Johnson: It was great fun. Thanks for having me. Melissa Breau: It was so interesting to learn a little bit about behind-the-scenes stuff. That was awesome. And thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in and joining us for that! We'll be back next week with Sara Brueske. We'll be chatting about the benefits of teaching tricks … and a little bit about disc dog! If you haven't already, subscribe to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. CREDITS: Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty-free by BenSound.com; the track featured here is called “Buddy.” Audio editing provided by Chris Lang.

Summary: Dr. Amy Cook has been training dogs for nearly 25 years and has been specializing in the rehabilitation of shy and fearful dogs for over 15 years. She's the creator of The Play Way, her process for helping dogs learn to cope with the world around them. She's also a certified dog behavior consultant, a long-standing professional member of the Association of Professional Dog Trainers, and has attended all four Chicken Camps in Hot Springs, Arkansas, taught by Bob Bailey. Amy returned to school in 2006 to get her PhD in psychology from UC Berkeley. Her research there focused on the dog/human relationship and its effect on problem-solving strategies dogs employ. Links www.playwaydogs.com Next Episode:  To be released 5/18/2018, featuring Amy Johnson, taking us behind the scenes of a major dog sports competition from a photographer's perspective.  TRANSCRIPTION: Melissa Breau: This is Melissa Breau and you're listening to the Fenzi Dog Sports Podcast brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy, an online school dedicated to providing high-quality instruction for competitive dog sports using only the most current and progressive training methods. Today we'll be talking to Dr. Amy Cook. Amy has been training dogs for nearly 25 years and has been specializing in the rehabilitation of shy and fearful dogs for over 15 years. She's the creator of The Play Way, her process for helping dogs learn to cope with the world around them. She's also a certified dog behavior consultant, a long-standing professional member of the Association of Professional Dog Trainers, and has attended all four Chicken Camps in Hot Springs, Arkansas, taught by Bob Bailey. Amy returned to school in 2006 to get her PhD in psychology from UC Berkeley. Her research there focused on the dog/human relationship and its effect on problem-solving strategies dogs employ. She also recently started a blog at playwaydogs.com, and everyone should definitely go check it out. Hey, Amy, welcome to the podcast. Amy Cook:  Hi Melissa. So glad to be here. Favorite, favorite thing ever. Glad to be back. Melissa Breau: I'm excited to have you, and today I wanted to talk to you about thresholds. Amy Cook: Thresholds [makes “doom music” sounds] … Melissa Breau: Threshold is definitely a word that gets thrown around a lot when it comes to reactivity. Do you mind sharing a little bit about what it typically means? Amy Cook: It's great that we open with that, because of course you want to open with a definition, it makes sense, except that that very thing is a huge can of worms. It takes a lot of time to unpack it all fully, and I'll be doing a webinar on this in June. I think it's just after camp, I think it's June 7 or so, where I'm really going to go into depth about all the stuff you need to know about it. But to get you thinking about it right now, thresholds is one of those things where we say it and we know what we mean by it, but when other people say it, either about our dogs or about their dogs while we're teaching them, we don't know exactly what they mean by it, and we don't have any real assurance that we both mean the same thing, even in the same conversation about thresholds, because if you really think about what thresholds are, it just means that it's a border between two different things, even; the two different states, if you will. So there's a threshold between the way I feel now and the way I'm going to feel next, whatever that feeling is that is coming, and not all thresholds are particularly of interest when we're talking about rehabilitation or dog training. There's only really a few that we care about. I say sometimes in my seminars, “Do you care about the panic threshold for your dog?” And I see some people saying yes, because of course we want to care about panic, but that's not what it says. Do you care about the panic threshold? The answer should be no, because there's plenty of other thresholds that you should have cared about well before we got anywhere near panic. So threshold is that state between one thing and another, and it's no more than that. When someone says, “Hey, your dog's over threshold,” the only thing I think is, Over what threshold? What exactly are you talking about? What state are they in now that they weren't in a bit ago that you want them not to be in or want to help them get out of? Until we have common language — and I'm not even saying that we all, as a training community, need to have one language, because this isn't one of those scenarios. This scenario is the word makes a lot of sense, but what we haven't defined is what states that we're talking about. So over threshold in what way? Can or can't do what kind of thing? It's worth a lot of thought, because if I just say, “Hey, my dog's over threshold now,” if I can be honest with you, I think it's becoming a shorthand for “My dog can't do this right now. I'm just going to call that ‘over threshold.' Oh look, he won't eat. He's over threshold. He's having trouble with latency here. He's going slow. He must be over threshold.” I think it's losing a little bit of meaning because you're not thinking about exactly what threshold you're talking about. It matters, because where you want to put your therapy is dependent on how the dog feels and how stressed he is, so you do really have to know where your thresholds are. So it's something people need to pay more attention to than I think that they are. Melissa Breau: How do you even begin to start to pin down, regardless of which threshold necessarily, how do pin down exactly where a specific dog's threshold may be between any two states? Amy Cook: It sort of depends on what your goal is in the given moment. Is my goal right now just to get past this dog with my dog and nothing happens? I have a different definition, a different threshold in mind for a behavior I don't want, that I'm trying to prevent and keep him under the line of expressing. That's not the same thing as if I want to do some therapy with him. For me, that would be play therapy, and if I want to do play therapy with him, that line of where I say threshold is is going to be much, much, much lower, because the line for me would be between he can play and he can't play. But if we're just talking about getting past a dog, the line might be the line between “he can stay on my food and look at me and keep walking and keep himself together,” and “he can't do that.” So first you have to think … you asked me how can we figure out what the threshold is. Tell me what threshold you want to figure out in the first place. From there we can define what would it be to be under it and what would it be to be over it. Why do you care about this particular threshold? “Because I want to get past the dog and I don't want barking.” OK, so any kind of barking would be over that particular threshold, and anything under where we're managing correctly — or managing successfully, I should say — is keeping him under. But I wouldn't call that under threshold for, say, learning a brand new trick, because he's probably way too busy inside, cognitively and emotionally, to learn something new. So if it's like, I want to keep him under threshold, I'd say, OK, what for, what is your goal? “I want to do shaping with him, and sometimes he gets …” — whatever his problem is. And I don't say I want him under a shaping threshold. I'm not telling the world to start adding new terms for everything. It's not like that. But if you want him clearheaded and able to be in a shaping session, then that's what you're trying to be under. How can you figure out what the threshold is? Well, that's a moving target. You need to tell me what you need to accomplish, and from there we can simply make sort of tests for it. What I do is, I have a really low threshold for The Play Way and I have tests for that. But since everyone's definition or goals might be a little different, I would encourage people to just give it even five minutes of thought of, What are the states I'm trying to define here and get below or get into, and how would I know if I were there? It's a question you almost have to answer for yourself. I have answers for the kind of work that I do, but not everybody's doing that. Thresholds is all over dog training, and so I can't just tell you that threshold is the one I use only and not the ones you use. But I will say if you do think about this and use them, then you should put more thought into definitions and identification of them. Melissa Breau: You talked a little bit in there about how you use them differently in The Play Way, and I did want to get into that a little more. Can you explain a little more how you use them and what you mean by that? Amy Cook: For the Play Way, what that is, if you're not too familiar with my work, it's using social play, so that would be play without the help of toys, like you're playing tug or playing fetch, and without the help of food, although certain exceptions will apply. So social play with your dog to help them relax, to help them feel a lot better about where they are, and to help you read how they're feeling so you can determine whether you are under threshold or not. That would be under my threshold, under the threshold of interest to me, in this case. Really, the whole reason why play is so important, there are two reasons. One is of course it's really fun, it's relaxing, and it's relationship-building. But the other real function of it is directly to help me determine a threshold. The threshold I want is one between the two states of interest for me are the dog is perfectly fine, absolutely nothing wrong as best anybody could tell, just like I can tell in you, you feel perfectly fine, you're not stressed, you're not tired, you're just being you, just being Melissa, and then whatever you are one step away from that. That's not super-specific, but it can't be. It's when the dog or you feels perfect, everything's fine, totally normal, nothing wrong, and then the first step away from that state is happening, and if you keep going on that path, if you keep taking more steps on that line, you're going right to eventually panic, or you're going right to stress, you're going right to upset, you're going right to can't handle, you're going right to trembling or yelling and screaming. A lot of different things can happen along that number line. I call it a one-step threshold as a shorthand for myself so that I can see it as everything was fine, nothing was wrong, and now we've just taken our first step away from that perfect state. And I'd like to know that that's happened for you. If I'm trying to help you stay in that really great state, I'd love to know that you have just left it. And because I have language with you and all other people, I can say, “Hey, let me know when you're starting to leave perfect and you no longer feel that way anymore.” But of course it's very difficult to ask a dog, and what I use play for, or really, more accurately, the disappearance of play. When it disappears for me, I can infer that something has happened. You play in your perfect state, and we of course train that a bunch, and we rehearse it a whole bunch, and then you can't. Something impeded, something got in the way, something interfered with our play. Are you starting on your stress path? Are you starting to leave this great state we're in? When play leaves, and they're just starting to have questions about whether they're OK, that's when I can best apply my rehabilitation techniques, my interventions for them. That's the best place because they haven't gone very far away yet, and I can get them back to feeling OK. Threshold is super-important to me for that reason. It's super-important to everyone for that reason. We're trying to get therapy into a dog who can benefit from the therapy. We don't do that when they're over threshold, but we have a moving target for where threshold is, so for me, I want it really codified. I call anything where the dog can't play like he normally plays at home, and behave like he normally behaves at home, socially with you as over threshold. To me, it's over threshold for therapy. I wouldn't apply therapy there. I might switch to management, which is going to be a different topic that we can talk about, but if you want to apply some kind of therapy to your dog to help them feel better, you want something that indicates that they're crossing the very threshold you care about, and for me, that's play. For me, so much is over threshold. So much more is over threshold for me than your average trainer. But I don't mean to say that therefore everything over threshold is bad. It's just over my therapeutic threshold. I wouldn't do therapy now. We'll do something else. But you can see how it hangs together. You want to know what you're dealing with so you can know what to put at it. I'm not going to throw therapy at a dog who's four steps away from perfect but still many steps underneath flipping out. I still have many things I can do there, which is what management is. Melissa Breau: Most dogs, to some degree, aren't quite as relaxed as maybe would be ideal just in everyday life. Amy Cook: Sure. Are you? Melissa Breau: Exactly. Amy Cook: I'm not. For the record, I'm tightly wound, very tightly wound! Melissa Breau: I just want to ask you, you mentioned management, and I do want to ask, on the flip side of all this, we have this ideal state that you've talked about. But what happens when a trainer inevitably … everybody makes mistakes, and the trainer makes the mistake, they misjudge something, they think their dog can handle something their dog definitely can't, and the dog reacts, whether it's just a couple of steps further away from that ideal state, or whether it's dramatic and lunging and barking and crazy. What do you do? Amy Cook: I don't think there's anybody within the sound of our voices tonight that hasn't done this, and that includes me. I'll just raise my hand. I assume you're going to raise your hand. We've all had a dog that we don't want to have react, react. Or conversely — this isn't really conversely — it doesn't have to be that they even react. It can be that they have been put in a situation that is beyond their skill set right now, and it might be that they tremble, or it might be that they just are now going into sniffing and don't want to do this and leave, and that's a form of being over threshold. You've made a mistake in how much your dog can handle or wants to do, and you're not going to get through a day or week — that may sound like a miscalculation — on the feelings of others who can't talk to you. If anyone out there is like, “Yes, that inevitable mistake,” it's inevitable. You will make it. Because of that, just know that you will, assume you will, try not to in a moment, but don't try to be a person who doesn't do that. You're just going to be your best all the time and accept when you're not. When that happens, though, you need to stay, as best you can, clearheaded about what your next options are, where your next acts need to be. Let's say this is reactivity and your dog has now blown, because it's a very easy example to use. Your dog has just blown up at somebody who showed up where you were training. I have a video of that in my class in fact, of me recording a video for class and someone just shows up and I had to respond. If anyone wants to see me do that, go in my classes in the videos, in the video section. You have to … or I recommend that you immediately drive the bus or pick up the reins — whether you like horses or cars better, pick your metaphor — pick up your reins and drive, pick up your wheel and steer your horse. You have to take over the situation, make immediate decisions, and those immediate decisions should involve getting distance and getting your dog on something else right then and there. You stop your training, you don't negotiate, you don't see if you can get your dog back on you while you're sitting right where you were, or tell the person that showed up “Hey, can you give me some room?” That's not the time to think about restoring what you had a second ago. It's your time to get up and march. I usually tell people “March,” and they're like, “I don't know how to march.” No, no. I mean walk fast. Leave. Get out of Dodge. Go. If you've made a big mistake, your dog went [barking sound], or you didn't notice, you didn't have to make a mistake, you could have been completely unaware or thought, Maybe that's a mistake, I don't know, and something showed up and your dog barked, and too many of us spend too much time frozen right then. You go, “Oh, oh, God, oh, sorry, sorry,” to whoever it was that your dog just now barked at. Or you're holding, “Dog, dog, cookie, cookie, dog, here,” trying to fix it in some fashion, and I don't recommend anyone do that. If you were sitting — I was imagining while you were talking, I was imagining sitting because most of my therapy for dogs is done sitting, so I was going to say, you stand up and you get out. You start walking. You take control. If you can't get out, you immediately get your dog's attention by hook or by crook. Interrupt that behavior. Get them on something else right away. The thing is, that can be difficult. I don't minimize that at all. First of all, you're frozen. Second of all, your dog hasn't seen you do this very much and doesn't have a ton of skills around that. That's why I have a class on this, because I firmly believe that people need to rehearse everything they're going to do in the clinch. If you need to practice getting up and marching out of the way really, really quickly, then you need to practice that when nothing's going on, so that you get fluent in it and so that your dog sees this picture many, many times before you ever need it. That's the one thing we don't do with management is we don't do that. But aside from the practicing issue, if you flip into your mind that first I was being dog empowered, and we were training a little bit, and you were figuring out my shaping puzzle, or I was doing some play practice with you and I'm listening to you and you tell me what you're feeling, dog, and then something happened and your dog goes [gasps] “I can't,” you go, “That's it, let's go. You get up and you just take over. So much of what we're trying to do here at Fenzi and so many of the classes are about giving the dogs a lot of control and a lot of ability to drive a session and to be really active partners, and this is the one time when you go, “All right. We're going. We're not negotiating this. We're getting out of here.” I think people are a little reticent to do it because they're trying to stay in the dog empowerment place or just aren't sure what to do, so I recommend you start driving. You pick up your reins and you drive your car, to mix my metaphors continuously. Melissa Breau: Pick up your reins and drive your car. There you go. Amy Cook: Pick up your reins and drive that car. Melissa Breau: For dogs with reactivity, it's not just about what happens when something goes wrong in the moment or when you've made a mistake. There are some things you just have to deal with. The world can be a really scary place and a really rough place, and there are just normal, everyday things that have to happen, even though they're scary and unpleasant. You have to go outside to poop. We're not going to do that in the house. That's not a negotiable thing. So there are some things that still need to happen in everyday life. How do you handle those things? What do you do? Amy Cook: I think that should be one of those infographics: The world might be a scary place, but you still have to go outside to poop. You still have to do it. I remember being a baby trainer and being really frustrated with the answer of “Don't put your dog over threshold.” I had a dog who was over threshold even by any definition, anyone's definition, outside of a home. Outside of a house, outside of four walls, she was losing her mind, and the answer was you're supposed to keep her under threshold while you're helping her classical condition to whatever, doors and things. And I'd say, “But she has to go outside. I can't keep her under threshold.” I didn't get much of a satisfying answer. It was like, “Well, try not to.” I was like, “That's not helping.” I get it. The world is a rough place, and going about normal, everyday things might be you running a gauntlet, might be you going from challenge to challenge to challenge, and if you're working with me at all, I'm saying, “Hey, let's do a lot of play. Let's keep your dog under threshold as much as possible.” I'm certainly saying those things. So going hand-in-hand with helping your dog be better in any way, whether it's through classical conditioning or whatever it is you're doing, you're training, you need to have an alternate way that you behave, an alternate plan for times that are not those times. Times when we have to go outside and go potty are not times when we're going to be working on how you feel about going outside and going potty. We're going to flip into our management mode. We're going to get our management boots on and we're going to behave as we do in management mode. That means I may have to override you. I will do it certainly as kindly as I possibly can, but we're not going to go that direction. We're going to go this direction, because I know this direction is better, even if you want to go that way. Or you'd like to go up and see that gentleman because you're on the fence about whether you're scared, and I know that when you get there you're going to flip out, so we're not going to. We're going this way. So the first thing you've got to think about is you're in control and you're possibly overriding, although very kindly, your dog. Secondly, your dog needs to know they're part of the management system. The management system might be all the little tricks that you'll do to get your dog past a thing. A certain example might be a magnet walk, a cookie magnet. If I teach you — and you'd think dogs would know this really well, but you'd be surprised how many dogs don't know how to do this because we don't practice it — you take a bunch of cookies, a bunch of them, and you put it right on their nose. Don't just let them sniff it and wish they had it in their mouths, but you're actually feeding in a specific way out of your hands the whole time you're walking. I challenge all of you listening: Can you take ten steps with your dog actively eating the entire time out of a hand, out of your hand — not any hand, your hand — that's right on their nose and eating all the way through. We're going to say these are not 10-inch Chihuahuas, but dogs you can reasonably reach with your hand, because they're the ones you can pick up and we can talk about that later. Can you walk ten whole steps with your dog eating the entire time? No pauses, no time do you take your hand away and put it back, no time for reloading, no time where he's sniffing it and wishing he had it and licking it, but is actually eating the whole way. I think most people can't … maybe not can't do it, most people can get it done if you practice it a bit, but that's the whole point of that. You've got to practice, because your dog is like, “What's going on here?” and you're like, “I don't know. My hands are dropping treats everywhere,” and you're not even the good dog-and-pony show, you're the disastrous dog-and-pony show and you're the pony. That requires that the dog understands that that's what's going to happen, that the magnet should not break. And you're responsible for not letting that magnet break by making that super-interesting and “Let's go, and here's the cookies, eat them, eat them, let's go, come on, eat, eat, eat, go, go, go,” as you're walking past nothing because you're just practicing. If you're just trying to introduce that to your dog in the moment because you needed it right then and there, but they've never seen it before, it's not going to go so well. They need to see their parts. But to the larger thing that you asked, which I'm never going to stay on one question because you pressed the button on my chest and I take off, an everyday walk that is scary will need specific and well-rehearsed management techniques to get through. So if you're going to pass a little too close to something, you flip into magnet walking. If you're going to see something else pass by you and you only have to pause for a couple of seconds, you might do some Find Its, but you're going to have a plan. You're going to go outside and go … in fact, sometimes, when I'm walking my dog, I might say, hey, you know, if that happened right now, like I'm passing a house, if that door just opened and a dog came running out, what would I do right now, right this minute? There's traffic in the street right now, so I'm not going to go walk in the street. I mentally rehearse that, and I try to see if I needed to manage it, if my dog were over-fazed right this minute, what would be my choice? That mental rehearsal is very helpful to getting the reality to be like that. So management is for when you cannot train and you have to get through, and training is for when you can be reasonably under threshold, however it is we're going to define threshold for that particular task, and you don't need to drive the bus. When you can give your dog the reins and the wheel of the horse car, then you're not managing. When you pick up the reins and take the wheel of the horse car, you are now managing, to be tortured with this ridiculous example. Melissa Breau: That was exactly my next question for you. I wanted it to be specifically on what the difference is between treating reactivity and learning management, because I think sometimes it's really easy, I know you draw a really clear distinction between the two, and I think for a lot of people it's a muddy line there. They're like, “But we're working on treating reactivity,” and the situation just changed and now you just need to manage it and get out of there. And sometimes it's hard to understand that those are two sides of the same coin, maybe, where yes, you need to do both. Amy Cook: They are two sides, and I think of them as flipping back and forth a lot. In the way I learned dog training, we talked about flipping from operant conditioning to classical conditioning too. I'm not saying people don't do it now, I'm sure they must, but in the sense of “I'm training you to do a thing. Oh, a scary thing happened. I'm just giving you cookies.” Give and give and give and give, it's a scary thing, and I'm changing right into classical conditioning mode, don't care what you're doing, here's cookies. We flip back and forth on what we can reasonably let a dog do without too much direction and when we have to take over, and I see this as a very similar flip but between two different states, because I do my therapy different now. So in this case it would be training reactivity for me means I let you have your head — back to the horses — you can make some decisions. I want you to tell me what you need to look at. I want you to tell me how you're feeling by the quality of your play. We're having a nice session here where you're looking at something in the distance and gathering some information about it, and then you can dismiss it a bit and come back to me and we play some, and we're doing all this and I'm letting you tell me how you feel. I'm not driving it and telling you to sit and telling you to high-five and giving you things to do. It's very dog-driven. And then, when I see that something has changed, either you've changed or I really see that literally a thing in the environment is now here, I utterly change and flip only into management tasks and I make sure that they happen. I create them all. In play, and even in other kinds of training, if you're not doing specifically rehabilitation, you're doing some heel practicing. The dog is doing the behavior and you're rewarding it. Once management has to be there, I don't ask the dog to do anything. I create it all as best I can. That's what the magnet walk is. It's not a heel, which the dog does and looks up at you and you reinforce. however often you're reinforcing it. It's instead I put a magnet on your nose and I'm drawing you forward and we're walking that direction. And the dog is like, ‘I don't know. I'm just following my nose. I'm not doing anything,” if you think about it that way. I'm taking as much control and I'm doing the behaviors. I'm making sure the behaviors happen. I'm insisting as kindly as possible so that the dog stays contained and stays focused on me and the world can pass by. If the world isn't going to pass by, I'm going to run out of there. And you know what? Running has to be practiced too. If you're going to run away from stuff, you better run the right way. You don't want to run in panic. You don't want your dog to go, “Why are we running? Oh my god!” It's a practiced skill, like any other. You practice running away, yay, from stuff so that it's not surprising for the dog and they don't have to go, “Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, what?” There should be no “what.” There's only a lot of “Oh, we're doing this? All right. I can do that.” So the distinction I make between training reactivity or learning management is that in one you are responsible for everything that happens and in the other one you're lightening control. You're letting the dog tell you a lot more stuff. You're responding to the dog instead. In management, the dog's responding to you and you go. Hopefully that's a clarity moment. Melissa Breau: Yeah, yeah, and as you were talking about it earlier I was thinking in one situation it seems like you really want the dog to think, and in the other situation you want to remove any need for the dog to think. Amy Cook: That's a good way to put it. I want you thinking and driving and telling me on your own. You want to look at something, look at something. I don't need to interrupt you. I want you to have your process — and more of that in the Bogeyman class — but a dog showed up, “Oh no, come here, you just need to think about me, and I'm going to take care of all of this.” That's something that doesn't come naturally to a lot of people. We sit there and “Oh God,” and we deliberate, “Should I give a cookie? He barked. I'm so nervous that it's reinforcing the bark, and I can't give the cookie.” In that time, while you're deliberating what you should do, that dog made it all the way to you, or that person got on his phone and started arguing. Everything got worse. You should have left before you started thinking about what you should do for your dog. Leave and then decide. Magnet-walk and go. Take it over. Melissa Breau: One of the biggest takeaways for me when I took the management class, which I loved, was the importance of practicing the skills. You talked about this a little bit: practice and practice and practice until they become a habit, not just for the person but for the dog, something that the dog and you can really fall back on when you need it, because it's so embedded and it's so patterned the fact that it has basically becomes... you don't have to think about this. It's so fluent for both of you. Amy Cook: It's dancing. We're all better if we have instructions. We're all better if we know what we're going to do. We are all better if things are patterned. All of us. Then especially, and if you want a dog to come magnet-walking with you, that dog's got to have seen it dozens and dozens of times, or they're going to go, “Yeah, magnet walk, but I've got stuff to yell at.” They don't have a groove to get into that's been super-practiced, and you know what, you don't either. The class, and the way I teach it to people, we're not using it maybe ever in the class, maybe. But certainly not until the last week, because I want fluency beyond fluency. I'll start throwing in little … here's one thing you can do, anybody listening. If you have a few management skills already, like a find it and a two up, putting two feet on something, maybe some quick sits, something that keeps their attention while all things around are breaking loose. What I want you to challenge yourself to do is you're out on your walk today on a regular suburban block, and you see up ahead a fire hydrant, and you see farther ahead than that the tree that's there, and I want you to manage, flip right into management the second you come to that fire hydrant, and manage the whole way all the way to the tree. Nothing has happened except that you decided you got to the fire hydrant and then you made it all the way to the tree. The dog might at first go, “What? Why are you managing me?” And if that's true and he's looking around, then he's not that practiced at management. He's expecting something to go wrong, he's expecting a big problem, and that's the last thing you want. You want to teach your dog that management is this crazy game I sometimes play for ten seconds for no reason at all. Every once in a while there's also a dog there, but that's not why I did it. I did it because I'm crazy and I just like to do fun things. Get your dog to believe that, and if you can flip in and flip out when nothing around you has happened, and do that any old time … in fact, some people have their partners say a code word, and then they have to manage right then and there and get out of Dodge right now and for no reason. It lets your dog see a little bit of panic in you, it lets your dog see a little bit of “Oh God, oh God, oh God” in you, and you're just freestyling, you're ad-libbing, you're able to take any challenge that comes up. I have people practicing that in the last two weeks of class, where they have to freestyle it, I call it. You've got to go out there and start responding to the tree and the bumper of the car and the fire hydrant, and make me believe that a dog showed up and you got out of Dodge, so that your dog has all of that before he ever needs to have it used. You'd be surprised, I'm often surprised, at how much dogs are a creature of habit. You'd think something like this, I hear people say, “My dog won't eat when we're outside.” They're a creature of habit. You don't start training it outside. You train it inside. You train it in careful places, and dogs really do go with the program. They really do. It's super-helpful, and even if it isn't perfectly helpful at every turn, 80 percent helpful is better than what you had before you started having a management system, so really anything is better than nothing. Melissa Breau: Right. You mentioned a couple of examples of some of the games you include in the management class. You mentioned two paws up, I think, and quick sits. Do you mind sharing some of those examples and describing them a little bit? Amy Cook: I like to separate the skills into the categories of “We are leaving in some fun way. I'm getting you out of this place.” It might be that I'm just pulling up a driveway. It doesn't necessarily mean we're leaving far, but I'm taking you and we're going to a new location. That's one set of skills. The other set of skills is “Well, I'm stuck here.” Oops, my exit is blocked. Or oops, that person showed up, but I see that they're actually just leaving and will get out of here faster than I would ever be able to get out of here, so I might as well stay here for a second and let the trigger leave. Those are super-separate. Getting out of Dodge, leaving quickly, involves connecting a magnet and then deciding which side your dog is going to be on, because perhaps it's better if they were on your left and now they need to be on your right, so you need to execute that really smoothly without breaking your magnet. Perhaps you need to make a U-turn. Can you do it without breaking your magnet? Most people don't. They make a U-turn and then connect the magnet again after they've made the turn. So we fix all those mechanics, how always you can leave a scene, all the directions you could go, all the sides your dog could be on, front crosses and all that stuff. You get one of those a week, and then you get a skill in the “Oops, you're stuck” series. I should call it that. I should just rename it that in the class: “Oops, you're stuck.” This is oops you're stuck, number one. And the next one is find it. I like those to be on cue, although it's really OK if the cue is they saw you drop the food, because that's going to work in a pinch, it's really fine. But I'd like to be able to say, “Dog, find it,” and then they go down and search immediately, even though you haven't put food down there yet while you go and get the food because you weren't ready because it wasn't in your hand because something surprised you. And so you go, “Oh god, find it!” and they immediately start going, “What? Really?” and they're looking down and they don't see anything and in that moment you're like, “Here it is,” and you spill it all over the ground and now they have something to find. That keeps their nose down and on their food. And you should get super-involved: “You missed this one, look at this here,” pat, pat, pat, pat, touch, touch, touch, nudge, nudge. “Look at these, you missed these here, oh my goodness.” Keep them super-engaged in that. What it does is first of all control where their head is, which you totally need, and then if it was a dog that was passing by, or even a person, but if it was a dog that was passing by, that dog is not being enticed by whatever your dog was doing, making it then harder for your dog to resist. Also you look super-busy. If someone was passing by and you're afraid of what your dog was going to do, or really wanted to protect your dog from that greeting, all of a sudden they're in a find it, you're doing training, you're busy, the dog isn't soliciting or looking like they're soliciting attention, which people misinterpret all the time, and is busy. So that's a great one to train. You might think there's no training in that one, but there is, because they want to break from that and you need to really get involved and you need to teach them that on verbal. I like them also to perch on things, so a two up and a four up. Two up is just front paws up, and four up they jumped onto it. I see them really differently from each other. The two up, I want you both facing the same way. It's like we're standing at a fence and both peering over it. We're both facing that way, so if something passed behind us, oh no, we didn't notice because I've got a magnet right in front of your face and “Look at these cookies, honey,” and “Look at that view, sweetheart.” It's not really a view, just imagine it, and then that person or whatever it is, the trigger, can be leaving while you're stuck there. This is your stuck series of skills. The four up I see the other way. I want the dog all four up, but you're going to face me. Tuck your face in close to my chest so I have your head here and you're up at my chest height, say a half-wall or a bench or something like that, and I've got control of your face. I can now look at the trigger passing behind your butt, but you're not, because I'm like, “Look what I've got, honey, look at this,” and if she breaks the magnet to look behind her, you're like, reconnect: “Look right here, cookie, cookie, cookie.” Each scenario might require you to … you want to look at the trigger to make sure that it's going away, so you put them in a four up, or you might neither of you need to look, because if you're looking, you're dog's going to look, and every dog's a little different, so you want to know how that goes. I like those kinds of stationary skills. There's a lot of others, like leave its, which a lot of people have already, but if we practice them in this situation, it helps them resist the urge to want to go look at whatever it is that was scaring them. And we do a thing called a classical recall, so it's not actually about the closing of the distance. I'll let that one remain in the class because it's actually a really long explanation when we do it. It's a special kind of recall. And a bunch of other things. I like dogs to wait at doors, just as impulse control, just don't dart out in front of me for stuff. Stay really connected to me when we're walking. It's not really a loose leash walking class, but I think it ends up being that a little bit too because there's so much magnetization when we're walking. The class also gets a little customization. If your dog in particular needs this one kind of skill, there's room. I built in room in the curriculum for a custom-built trick or a custom-built skill that you can use when you're stuck, your stuck series. So the class is customizable to your situation. Melissa Breau: That's awesome. I will say the find it game has worked, I told you this privately a bunch, but it worked wonders for me with my Shepherd, just having that game as a patterned game where she knows what her job is in such a concrete and understandable way and it's just to find the cookies. Something can pass us by, it can even pass by in the same direction that she's looking as she finds her cookies on the ground, and she knows her job, so she can focus. Amy Cook: I think some of them are self-medicating. It's like, “I wanted not to have to do that anyway, this yelling at dogs thing. I just did. Look, I can do a thing. I can just concentrate on this thing I'm doing.” But if they can't really do that, then you're pointing out every one of them until they're able to concentrate. What I like about the find it is that it can go on as long as you want, because I have an endless stream of pocket cookies. Melissa Breau: Yes. Amy Cook: I'm replete with cookies, so if I want find its to go on for a full minute, it's like, “Look, you missed this one here, and there's a whole trail of them here. Look at what we've got in the grass. Look at all these cookies.” Dogs love to forage, so it's playing to their strengths, and you can get their attention, walk run another fifteen steps to get a little further from something that changed again, and do another find it. You can do find its the whole way while you're walking. It's very customizable. Find its are the unsung hero, I think, of management, because people think, Oh, I put it them the floor but the dog didn't really care, so this doesn't work for me, and it's actually not a simple matter of using it when you've never practiced. Practice is the game changer. Melissa Breau: Right. I want to round things out by asking you if there's anything else that you've got in the works that you care to share — new classes, other goodies people should keep an eye out for, what you're working on. Amy Cook: Goodies. What I'm working on. Well, let's see. Coming up, I mentioned I've got the webinar. I'm going to talk about thresholds solely in that webinar because there's more to say about it for sure than I was able to say here. And then starting in June, I've got two classes. Starting in June, I've got this management class. I alternate it with The Bogeyman and The Play Way class because people need access, I think, to the whole picture of it, so I just try to make sure one runs into the other runs into the other. So next up is management, so if anyone is interested, this is the time to sign up. Concurrently with that, I'm going to run a sound class, which is for dogs who are sound sensitive and who need some classical conditioning essentially, but I use a lot of play and a lot of celebration and a lot less of the dry “I'll give you cookies after the sound happened.” True to form, I use a ton of play in it, but it's not just personal play, so if you have trouble with personal or social play, that's too weak for this class. We do crazy, raucous, amazing play with all the toys of the world that have a sound. That comes up only once or twice a year at most, so if that's your issue, you'll want to pick that up now. In the future, what I'm toying with now, I want to write, I'm in the process of writing a new class about raising puppies or socializing your new dog, if you just got a new dog, in The Play Way style. All this stuff I'm using The Play Way for is usually responding to problems dogs already have, but it would be really great if we could just prevent them in the first place, at least as best we can, and so I'm writing a class that's aimed at “You just got your puppy, or you just got your new dog, you don't know too much about him, and you're in the honeymoon period. What can you do to start off on the right foot?” Really, for me, that means rethinking socialization. Socialization, at least to my mind, is not about being social. It's actually about being civilized and learning to ignore a lot of things, but not through forced connections. So I'm going to write a class for people who want to raise their dog in that dog-empowered way and get started on that right foot. It's in the works, but I take quite a long time to get all the pieces together, so don't expect it soon. Maybe fall, maybe into the next year, I'm not sure. But it's going to be a companion class to The Play Way for people who don't already have a reactivity problem but don't want to have one, they can get into that way. Melissa Breau: That sounds fantastic. I am super-excited about the new class. I'm looking forward to it. And thank you for coming back on. It was fun to chat again, Amy. It always is. Amy Cook: Always a pleasure. You can have me on weekly. I'm available weekly and also daily, if you need more podcast for this. Melissa Breau: If only that were actually true. Amy Cook: If people would interview me every evening, I would be happy. Melissa Breau: In truth, it's a little after midnight here, so … Amy Cook: OK, all right, we'll be done. But it was really great to be here. I'm really happy you asked me back, and it's always a pleasure to talk with you. Melissa Breau: It's always a fun chat. It absolutely is. And I'm glad you could come on. And I'm glad all of our wonderful listeners could tune in to listen to it. We will be back again next week, this time with our other Amy from FDSA — Amy Johnson. We'll be chatting about what it's like behind the scenes to photograph a major competition event, so we'll be talking to her about the recent … I think it was agility nationals she just shot, what that's like, what's involved in that, and all of that good stuff, so it should be fun. If you haven't already, subscribe to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. And if you don't know how to do that, we have directions on our website. If you go to the site, we have buttons right at the top that tell you how you can subscribe if you're on iPhone and how you can subscribe if you are not on an iPhone, if you are using an Android phone. So I hope you'll go and do that. CREDITS: Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty-free by BenSound.com; the track featured here is called “Buddy.” Audio editing provided by Chris Lang.

Summary: Over her 40 years of dog training, Michele Pouliot has presented scores of seminars and has been responsible for bringing science-based clicker training to guide dog training around the world. In her "hobby world," she has actively competed in both horse and dog sports since 1970. In dog sports alone that includes A.K.C. dog obedience, attaining three OTCHes, agility, tracking, and then, starting in 2006, the sport of canine musical freestyle. A short time later, in 2007, Karen Pryor invited Michele to join her faculty for Clicker Expo conferences, where Michele presents on the application of clicker training techniques for a variety of dog sports, general training, and for the training of guide dogs for the blind. Karen Pryor and Michele collaborated for the development of Michele's online freestyle course, which is available from the Karen Pryor Academy. Links www.michelepouliot.com Next Episode:  To be released 5/11/2018, featuring Amy Cook, talking about thresholds and managing reactivity while you work on changing how your dog actually feels. TRANSCRIPTION: Melissa Breau: This is Melissa Breau and you're listening to the Fenzi Dog Sports Podcast brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy, an online school dedicated to providing high-quality instruction for competitive dog sports using only the most current and progressive training methods. Today we'll be talking to Michele Pouliot. Over her 40 years of dog training, Michele has presented scores of seminars and has been responsible for bringing science-based clicker training to guide dog training around the world. In her "hobby world," she has actively competed in both horse and dog sports since 1970. In dog sports alone that includes A.K.C. dog obedience, attaining three OTCHes, agility, tracking, and then, starting in 2006, the sport of canine musical freestyle. A short time later, in 2007, Karen Pryor invited Michele to join her faculty for Clicker Expo conferences, where Michele presents on the application of clicker training techniques for a variety of dog sports, general training, and for the training of guide dogs for the blind. Karen Pryor and Michele collaborated for the development of Michele's online freestyle course, which is available from the Karen Pryor Academy. I'm incredibly thrilled to have her here today! Hi Michele! Welcome to the podcast! Michele Pouliot: Hi Melissa, and thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here, and I want to thank Fenzi Dog Sports for having me here. Melissa Breau: Absolutely. So thrilled to talk to you. To get us started out, do you want to just share a little bit about your own dogs and what you're working on? Michele Pouliot: My current dogs are two. One is my English Springer Spaniel Déjà Vu, who is 8-and-a-half years old now, and I have a 4-and-a-half-year-old Australian Shepherd, Saki. They are both continually working on coming up with new ideas for tricks. It's what canine freestyle pushes you to do is always trying to come up with new moves and new behaviors to make your next routine interesting. So other than that, they're having fun just being dogs, running around the property. Melissa Breau: I know that you got started training horses. Do you mind sharing a little bit about how you originally got into training, and what led you then from horses to dogs? Just a little bit on your background? Michele Pouliot: Sure. We're going to go way back now. Straight out of high school, I really wanted to have a career in horses. I'm an Air Force brat, so my father, our family, moved all over the world as I was growing up, and in high school we landed on an Air Force base in Louisiana. My entire life I'd wanted a dog, couldn't have a dog, my mother was not a dog person and used the excuse of us moving so much as to why we couldn't have one. And I also wanted a horse. My father had always promised me that if we ever got to an Air Force base that had a stable, that I could have a horse. Well, we did, when we were stationed in the Philippines when I was in junior high school. I just fell in love with working with my horse, and I thought, This is what I want to do for the rest of my life. My father was very supportive when we came back to the States and ended up in Louisiana. In high school I got another horse, and he went ahead and allowed me to skip college and use the money to go to the Pacific Coast Equestrian Research Farm, which was run by Linda Tellington and her husband at that time, Wentworth Tellington, very well-known equestrian professionals. My whole goal was to be a professional horse trainer and instructor. After spending a year there with Linda and Went, I got my first job, which was running a new equestrian program in Fargo, North Dakota. What happened there was I was giving riding lessons to a woman who was a dog trainer. I got my first dog as soon as I got there, so I had a yellow Labrador. As soon as I got away from home on my own, I got my first dog. So I had this dog, loved it, didn't know what I was doing. But one of the gals I taught riding to was a dog trainer locally, and I look back on that experience realizing how lucky I was that the person I ran into about training dogs was such a good dog trainer. She was a traditional trainer, of course, back in those times, but she was a really good traditional trainer. So she taught me, in exchange for riding lessons, all about how to work with this young Labrador puppy that I had and make it a nice, mannerly pet. I was intrigued with how easy it was to train the dog versus the horses, so it got me interested more in training the dog versus just training it for being a nice pet. That is how I slowly started shifting my focus for my profession towards dogs, yet I always kept horses, so I haven't ever been without a horse since then. I just slowly, when I left North Dakota after my first winter — that was a sign that I never wanted to stay in North Dakota for another winter — but when I came back to the West Coast, I just decided, You know what, I really like this dog thing, so let me start that. And that's how I ended up going into dogs. Melissa Breau: That's really quite interesting, and I know you started to touch on a little bit there the similarities and differences in training the species, that dogs were a little easier. Do you mind sharing a little more about what you learned, compare and contrast a little bit for us? Michele Pouliot: Sure. Of course, when you're thinking that we're talking back in 1970 -'71, there was no positive training that was known of, so everything was traditional. We were training horses in traditional techniques, training dogs in traditional techniques, and when you're training traditionally, the gap between training a dog and a horse was huge, because what you had with this dog was a species that really wants to please in general. So not only are they maybe more domesticated than a horse, but they surely love to work with people. That was what stuck out so much to me. Whereas horses, being traditionally trained, it isn't like they're all excited to go out and work with you. It was good traditional training, they weren't afraid, but they certainly weren't the way horses can be nowadays when they are positively trained. So I think my first realization in that frame of reference, when you think of the times of training at that point in time, was just how much easier the dog was to train because they were so much more like, “What can I do for you?” The horse took so much longer to train because you didn't seem to have that automatic impulse from a horse you're working with to say, “What can I do to please you?” That was the big difference then. There's still a big difference, so even though my horses are clicker trained, as my dogs are, you're dealing with a big animal, so the difference in your safety is a big one. Even though we're not talking about an aggressive horse, it's still a big animal. If you think about dogs that will mug people and get in their bait pouches and jump up and want rewards, well, imagine a 1200-pound horse doing that to you. You have to be much more thoughtful about every step of the training process with a horse to make sure that you're not inadvertently creating an excitement or an energy in your positive training that can actually be dangerous for a human on the ground. Whereas with dogs, we don't really think about it that much as far as something that's going to be dangerous. If I teach a dog to leg kick and he happens to clock my leg, yeah, that's not great, but it's not life-threatening. Melissa Breau: Right. You talked a little bit about the fact that back then everything was traditional training, that approach. What led you to become a positive trainer and to clicker training? Michele Pouliot: When I got into dogs, first I kind of got my foot in the door with that first dog I had. Once I had him trained, I heard something about AKC and obedience, and I entered him in local obedience trials, and for some reason I was winning. People would meet me outside of the ring and say, “Ooh, do you give lessons?” and I felt weird because I didn't think I knew anything yet. But I started giving lessons and I was really enjoying that aspect. I ended up working at a kennel, figuring, You know, Michele, you've really got to learn more about dogs. So I took this entry-level position at a kennel in Long Beach, California. I was cleaning kennels and all that, but in the afternoon I would be giving some training lessons to the public, which was a great experience for me. But I wasn't there very long before I read an article about guide dogs and training dogs for blind people. Remember, there's no Internet back then. This is a magazine, and in the magazine was this article, and in the end were addresses of three guide dog schools in the country. The article was fascinating to me, and all I could think of is, Oh my god, what an amazing combination: the love of training dogs, and I'm also helping people. This is what I want to do. It just hit me like a thunderbolt that I had to do this work. We're in 1973 now, and I write all three schools. One of the schools never responded. Another one, I still have the letter framed on my wall today. The letter reads, “I'm sorry, but women are not emotionally or physically capable of training guide dogs.” Melissa Breau: Oh dear! Michele Pouliot: Understand that in 1973, that was not an affrontive letter. My reaction, as this naïve young woman, was, Oh, I didn't know that, in my head. Whereas ten years later, my hackles would have gone up reading something like that. Anyway, I got a letter from Guide Dogs for the Blind that invited me to fill out an application. I filled out the application, sent it in, and they had me come for an interview. Everything was great, I got the job, I was so excited. I found out later, when I arrived, I was the only woman besides one other woman who had just started working six months prior. It was not an easy place for a woman to step into, because there was a belief system that women can't do this. It's way too rigorous physically, and emotionally it's very difficult. So this woman and myself were like the pioneers of trying to get our feet in the door for proving ourselves that we could do it. When I first got my job at Guide Dogs, which was really my first serious, in my head, dog training assignment, I also was always focused on trying to do so good that I was paving the way for other women to come and do this work. That was the first goal. A part of that —which you're probably wondering, Is she ever going to get to answer my question? — a part of that is that I knew that I could do better what they were doing. I was so surprised when I showed up and realized that I was a darn good dog trainer when I was watching some of the techniques that I saw being used. What I saw was some very harsh traditional training. Very harsh. And I just knew I could do better than that. So, from the day I arrived, I started putting this subtle pressure from demonstrating that you don't really have to do it that way. My focus was always to be the best trainer I could be, the kindest, the gentlest, even though I was totally understanding of traditional training and that's what you do, there was no other option. But because that was my background in the 1970s, when I started hearing in the 1990s about this new, modern training, I was fascinated. Through those twenty years, before I heard about positive training, I had helped the program get better, better, better, and I mean in the early 1990s, our school was doing really good traditional training. I was so happy that the program had come so far that no dogs were being treated really unfairly. Even though it was traditional, it was good traditional training. I always have this flavor in my heart of, How can I be kind and gentle and still get the job done? Even when you're a good traditional trainer, you might be focusing on that, but you also inherited the belief that using a lot of punishment to teach is OK. It's a belief system that you are born into. So as I started opening my mind to looking at this new positive training thing I was seeing, I was so excited that, oh my gosh, there's other possibilities, and that's really what led me to start looking at videos and going to seminars and going to conferences and trying to figure out how this fits into my world, especially how does it fit into guide dog work. Melissa Breau: So, I'd love to hear a little bit more about some of what you did with the guide dog program, if you don't mind. I know that you spent a large chunk of your career focused there. How did that evolve? Can you share a little more? Michele Pouliot: Sure. I retired two years ago with forty-two years, so I've been doing it a long time. When I chose to introduce positive reinforcement training to my school, my guide dog school, my intent at that time was just, can we even make this better, kinder, gentler, and overall more positive for everybody, including the trainer. Because it was a very physical type of training when you're doing traditional training, too, so we had injuries. We had people coming in and being injured. By the way, by this time the staff was majority of women, so over the twenty years a lot changed. The men were in the minority, and I'm not really saying I even know why that is, because it's kind of true in the guide dog industry and in the cane mobility industry — meaning instructors who teach blind people how to travel with canes — it's interesting how through the last several decades the majority are women. I think it has to do with being nurturers and wanting to help is why we have more people in there now that are women versus men. Anyway, back to guide dogs. When I first brought the idea to my supervisor, my supervisor had a lot of faith in me. I had already done a lot for the program and had everyone training so much better than they used to train, so I had a good relationship with my supervisor, but he looked at me like I was crazy. Now, you have to understand that in the guide dog world, guide dogs have been trained since World War I. That's when it started. The techniques used for guide dog training were from World War I, meaning war dogs. How do you train a dog to be a war dog? And you know those dogs were hardy, hardy, tough, courageous dogs. So all the guide dog work that started was with very heavy-duty traditional training, and the thought process was you have to be tough to make the dog reliable. No matter how weird that sounds today in the positive training world, it's a reality for when it started. It was such a unique idea that somebody had in World War I to do this, and they were doing it successfully. So imagine if you say, “Can we train a guide dog to help a blind person get around safely and keep them from being injured?” and it worked, what does that do for your ego? It pushes it up there pretty big. So when you join a guide dog school and you are in awe of what they do, I was in awe of what they did. It's like, oh my god, this is like miracles. Those dogs are saving people's lives. So when somebody tells you that you can't use food when you train guide dogs, and the reason is the handler's blind and there's food all over the environment, everywhere you go, there's food, because of that, you believe it. I believed it. I was totally brainwashed. And I brainwashed so many of my blind clients over the years, like we all did, because we didn't want them hand-feeding their dogs. It was about food only comes in their food pan two times a day when they get fed. So the first thing that we had to tackle, we were the first school in the world that tackled this whole belief system, which was, believe me, very deeply entrenched worldwide that you can't use food in training guide dogs. There are still some outliers now that are holding to that, and their programs probably won't change until there's a few individuals that retire or leave the program, just because they're so entrenched in the belief system, and I understand that because I was there too. Thank God I had an open enough mind to say, “Maybe there's a way.” So the first task at hand was to show that we could teach the dogs, with food, how to not take food in the environment, and how to avoid offered food in the environment. If you picture that you've got this handsome, cute little dog out in harness and you're blind, how many people do you think a day come up and say, “Oh, he's so pretty. Can I give him this cookie? I have a little piece of meat.” You have all sorts of people doing that and not even asking. Guide dogs actually are offered food a lot. And imagine how many restaurants that you would go sit in, and your dog goes under the table, and guess what they find under the table that somebody previously dropped on the floor. There's food all over the place. So we thought — ha ha — we were doing this great job of teaching food avoidance through correction. The dog, of course, if they went for food, would be corrected. The comical part about that is although the response we trained looked really good at the end of guide dog training, because that means the professional was handling the dog, and the professional has sight, so the professional can do what? Time a correction. They can see what the dog's about to do. Well, hand the dog over to a blind client, and guess how long it takes a guide dog who's been trained that way to figure out that the blind person isn't responding at all when they head toward some food. We had ourselves brainwashed that we were doing a good job. The really cool thing about coming up with “How do we teach them with food to leave food?” was incredibly rewarding for us to go, “Oh my gosh, we just blew that belief system out of water.” The dogs are so much better now than they ever were with environmental food. And it's because they're choosing. It's their choice. They're not being threatened. They know that, If I leave this food alone and if I refuse this food from this person offering it, I know at some point in the near future I'm going to get a reward too. That was the huge hurdle to get over because of how entrenched that belief system is in the world. From that point on it was saying, OK, let's look at this clicker training thing, and look at all the skills we teach, and what can we teach with clicker training? I'm really glad my school took it really slow. At the time I felt like I was dragging them forward — “Please, let's do more, let's do more” — but the reality is traditional trainers have to learn these skills, it's totally new skills. So for us to just overnight decide we were going to change would not have been a good idea. We took it really slow. I look back at 2006, when all of our instructors were using clicker training, and it's comical to me to think that we thought we were so advanced, because it's come so far. Things that we transfer over to clicker training, it was clicker training, but now it's been improved to where it's really good clicker training. So it was a very long haul. The good news was that when we made this change, we had a couple schools that had heard through the grapevine that we were doing this who asked if we could help them out. Management made a decision then that really changed the course of the entire industry, because the industry could be very protective over what they did and their information, not necessarily willing to share “secrets.” Our management at that time decided that we're going to share this. We're not going to keep it quiet. And so at that time, around 2007, they started sending me out on the road to any school that wanted help. That is what kind of started the road to changing the industry, because the word started spreading. And then we started presenting at the International Guide Dog Conference, which happens every two years. That was like an international community, and presenting and showing video of all that we're doing, showing them data on success rates that skyrocketed higher than ever historically from the day we started clicker training. There was so much information that our school made available to the guide dog industry besides us actually personally helping. I mean, it's just wonderful. Let me give you an idea. There's about a hundred-plus guide dog schools in the world that belong to this International Guide Dog Federation. In 2006, there were three guide dog schools out of that group that were using positive reinforcement. Now it's over sixty-five. That's a big deal in ten years. It's a really cool thing to see it happening, and it's a really cool thing that I get to still do. I'm a consultant. I just got back from South Africa in February, helping a South African school, and it's just wonderful to see the excitement, because most of the staff are younger people now. There are always still some staff that are more senior, and traditional trainers who are learning new skills, but everyone has gotten to the point where they realize this is really a better way to go. So it's rare for me to run into people now that haven't realized, because we proved it. Basically our school proved it. Melissa Breau: That's fantastic. That's got to be such a good feeling to know that you've had such a huge impact on that field, and to really be able to look at the numbers and see how much change you've really created. Michele Pouliot: It is. It's an extremely satisfying time in my life to go ahead and retire. Melissa Breau:  Fair enough. Michele Pouliot: It was about five or six years ago now I was considering retiring, and I just had a funny feeling that I needed to give it a few more years to make sure that my program that I was leaving was really set to still move forward and not slide back if they didn't have me bugging the heck out of them all the time, for instance. Melissa Breau: Right. It's fantastic you've created this change, but I know there are still some fields that are, for lack of a better word, struggling to make the switch, or fields where traditional methods are still the norm. Do you have any advice for people who are maybe positive trainers in those situations, or positive trainers who are surrounded by others who aren't, when they're trying to maybe create change or inspire change in others? Michele Pouliot:  Over the past ten years — I guess more than that now, actually — I feel like I've done this so many times with so many different people and organizations, at least in the guide dog and service dog industry, I've been involved with so many now that I've learned the hard way what not to do. Even when somebody acts like they're open-minded and ready to listen, you have to be very careful that you respect them and avoid criticizing then, because the tendency in positive reinforcement trainers is to look down on traditional trainers as if they're being mean or even abusive or harsh or whatever. So when they're talking at a traditional trainer, they have that attitude of, “You need to change because da-da-da-da-da.” Well, the reality is traditional trainers love their dogs, too, and if you think they're doing it because they want to be meaner than they need to, that's not so. They inherited that. That's what they learned. I never thought I was being mean or harsh or too rough. I was a good traditional trainer and I used techniques that worked. My dogs were happy, they worked happy, they weren't cowering. But when I look back now, of course I realize, wow, there's so much of a better way to do this, and the animal is so much more joyous in its work. But people approach, if you want to call it the other side of the fence, they approach that with criticism, even if it's not direct criticism. You need to give a person respect for what they've done, what they've accomplished, and not in any way punish them. The comical part, to me, is if you're truly a positive reinforcement trainer, then why are you punishing these people? Are you going to punish them long enough that you think they're going to change? You should know that punishment isn't very effective. It only works with threat, so are you going to threaten them? No. The way you get them to change is reinforce them for their efforts, support them when they're having trouble, and sometimes that means you have to ignore something that's still happening and just go, “That will come in time. Leave it alone.” Right now, give them something you can actually help them with, because that reinforces them. When you solve a problem for someone or some organization with positive reinforcement and it's a problem they continue to have, you are now God. Now it's like, “Wow, we were never able to solve that with traditional training, and they just solved it.” That's all about reinforcement, so it's no different than applying positive reinforcement to animal training. It's how do I get this animal, which happens to be human, I have to want and get them inspired and motivated, don't I? I have to have something they want. So I have to give them the feeling of reinforcement, and usually that comes in the shape of showing them how it works. Don't just tell them. Show them. There are a lot of people in the horse barns, for instance, that are certainly surrounded by traditional horse trainers, and they're the one person in their barn that wants to do clicker training with their horse, so they day in and day out feel like they are one against a hundred. The best thing they can do is just smile and say, “Thank you. That's really cool that you're doing that, but I want to do it this way. I'm really enjoying this. This is really fun.” And then, on the side, you're showing them, from them noticing, that it really works. There's no sense in having a war, because the war never gets you anywhere. I've been at those wars. I've been the positive reinforcement and the traditional trainer wars. It doesn't work. It just makes the traditional trainers dig their trenches deeper because you're making them feel they have to defend themselves. The last thing you want to do is make a traditional trainer feel like they have to defend themselves. You have to get them curious so that they're really interested in how that works. The good news is in the guide dog world it's been proven now. We were on new ground when we did it, and when we did it, we didn't have anything telling us it's going to work, so we were just hoping we'd get the same quality of response at the end of training, and what wowed us was how much better all the responses were. We were just hoping that going to this new positive thing would be kinder-gentler and we'd still get what we had. We never, never imagined we would get better and better responses than historically the school had ever had. Melissa Breau: That's fantastic. I know there are a lot of people out there who are in that exact position, and they're surrounded by so many trainers who are doing things other ways. They feel like they're fighting that battle, so I think that's really useful for folks to hear. What about for those folks that are out there, maybe they're on the edge, or maybe they're in the process of crossing over, I think anyone who has done that knows it's not easy. Do you have any advice for those folks? Michele Pouliot: The best advice I can give for someone who wants to cross over, they're in the process, is realize that learning never goes away. I think in the traditional training world you get to a point — and I say this not just from my experience, but being around so many traditional trainers for so many years in the '70s and '80s — you get to a point where you think you've learned everything. It's a little phenomenon. It's like, I'm there, I've got it, I've done my thing, and now I just keep practicing it. As a positive reinforcement trainer I quickly realized that I didn't know anything about training. It was like, wow, I might be good at actually doing some certain things with animals, but I had never even thought about how the science would affect everything that I'm doing. So realizing that it doesn't end. When I first joined the faculty of Clicker Expo, Karen Pryor's faculty, I was totally intimidated by being on the faculty. It's like, Oh my god, all these people, they are so much better than me. And then I started getting more comfortable after a few years, but every time I went, I realized I still feel like a novice. Every single time I go to an Expo, I'm learning something else from a faculty member, or two or three of them, that I went, wow, I never even looked at it that way. That has not ended, so I realized it's an open book. It's an open end that never stops. And if you do stop and you say, “I've learned enough, this is all I need to know,” that's sad to me because there's so much more available to you, even within your own little world and how you're using it, because it's constantly got the ability to give you more information and make you even better and better at training both the animal and the student, the person. Melissa Breau: Even if you've learned, say, everything that was out up to a year ago, when you really talk to some of the leading trainers out there, there are always new ideas that they're trying and they're testing and they're playing with, and then going out there and sharing. Michele Pouliot: Exactly, exactly. Even through things like this, a podcast. You're listening to a podcast and you go, “Oh, well, that's interesting. I never quite heard that before.” Or you hear it said a different way, and even if all that gives you is ooh, when I teach that next time, I have another way to say that that might make more sense to that individual person who I'm having trouble getting that concept across to. Melissa Breau: Absolutely. I know that that, for me, was a big, big thing when I was teaching pet dog people was that I'd often sit in the class, or listen to somebody talk, and you just come away with, “Oh, well, that was a really great analogy. That was a really good way of phrasing that,” that you can reuse or turn around. Michele Pouliot: For sure, for sure. And to me, I really always look at myself as when I'm working with somebody, an individual and their animal, I'm never really teaching the animal. I'm teaching them. So it's my job to be able to be a hugely successful communicator and adjust on the fly when it's not working, because obviously the way I'm explaining it is not working, so I've got to find another way. Melissa Breau: I know that I mentioned in the intro you've done competitive obedience and agility, and that today you mostly compete in musical freestyle. For those who maybe aren't super-familiar with the sport, can you share a little bit about what it is and how it's judged? Michele Pouliot: Most everybody has at some point in the Winter Olympics watched the ice-skating. If you look at that event, the Olympic ice skating, and the short program, long program — years ago they also had the figures that they don't do anymore because it wasn't very interesting to watch — but it's very similar in that you have a piece of music, and what you're doing is you and your dog are performing certain behaviors and you're interpreting the music. So freestyle, in its own right, is meaning anything you want to do. Anything goes, so it gives you the open ability to choose a lot of interesting things to do. Most organizations that you can compete under, and there's about four or five organizations worldwide, do have some limit in freestyle for safety. In other words, the one limit can be as long as it looks safe for human and dog. Other than that, there really isn't a limit, other than don't do something in really bad taste, for instance. But if you look at the Olympic ice-skating, in that they are judged both technical and artistic, it's the same thing. In most organizations you have two basic element types you're being judged on, which is the technical aspect of the performance, including the precision, including how things flowed, and then you have the artistic, which is the creative part, how unique was this, how emotional was it, was it funny, was it dramatic, was it just really amazingly entertaining. If you look at it with that ice skating analogy, I think you'll realize, yeah, that's an easy to understand sport. It is still a bit of a subjective sport, meaning you could have the exact same performance in front of two different judges and they may judge it a little differently. But that's not really any different than if you get in a high level of competitive obedience. You're looking at who's going to win the classes a half-point ahead of the other, and that could be a subjective judgment between judges, so one judge saw it as a perfect sit and one judge saw it as a half-point-off sit. So no matter what, the subjectivity comes into most sports, agility being one that probably not. The dog either does the … but you still have some judgments about did he make the contact point, did he miss it, so it is a subjective sport. The cool thing about the sport is everyone going in the ring is doing something different, so you're not watching the same routine, like an obedience routine or the agility course. You're not seeing the same thing again and again. Every single person that goes in the ring is doing something different, even if you — by horrors — happen to have the same music as somebody else, which has happened to me. It happened to me. But they're still totally different routines because you have a different person and a different dog interpreting it. So it's very cool that it's your own creation. I have tons of video of my dogs doing competitive obedience at way back Games Nationals, really cool stuff, and agility runs. Do I ever pull that footage out and watch it? Not really. But do I pull out my old freestyle routines and watch those? I do. It's more like you created art yourself, you and your dog together created this thing, and nobody else has done that thing. It's something that you did, and when you are in freestyle long enough that you're losing dogs, obviously they die, I mean, that was the first time that hit me was when I was watching my Springer Spaniel Cabo's performance to Phantom of the Opera at a seminar. Somebody wanted to see it, and I showed it for the first time after he had passed, and I mean I got really emotional because it wasn't just seeing him on the screen as much as all that we put into that routine to make it an entertaining routine. The cool thing to me about freestyle, which is why I got so excited about it when I discovered it, is everything keeps changing. It isn't that you get to this high level and then you're doing the same skills and maintaining those same skills. You're always trying to do something new, inventive, because of the piece of music you've picked. It brings out the creativity and it really pushes you as a dog trainer. So it's been wonderful for me because it keeps pushing me to what is the next thing I'm going to clicker train — not necessarily that I'm going to use it in the next routine, but maybe the routine after that. So it really does help me, personally, get inspired and motivated to train, because my goal is to come up with some sort of performance that is entertaining to the audience. I just love that. Melissa Breau: You obviously bring it to the sport. You're very passionate about it. Is there anything, in your opinion, in particular that has led to your success? Michele Pouliot: I think for anyone's success, you have to say you're obviously doing good training. Again, it's motivating to me to keep pushing myself to become a better and better trainer for that reason, because it's going to come out in the performance. Creativity is something that I think I probably was born with, because I always had a wild imagination, and my brother is a very creative person too. I actually don't know how to teach people creativity, but you can get a lot of great ideas from just watching Broadway plays, movies, shows, you can get some great ideas for what might make a very cool routine. I would have to say that I entered this sport at a point in my career when I'd only been clicker training on my own with my own animals for maybe four or five years when I got into freestyle. But I had already learned the power of it for teaching really great behaviors, entertaining-type behaviors, so that really inspired me to, like, what else can I do? When you envision something in a routine that might seem a little up there — meaning, well, maybe I shouldn't really expect that I can make it look that great by teaching a dog to do something like that — and then you actually do it, that's really rewarding for yourself as a trainer, but rewarding in that you were able to show the audience something. It also is a really good ambassador for clicker training, because when you see a good freestyle performance, the one thing you know is there are behaviors you just watch that you know you couldn't train any other way except with clicker training because it wouldn't work. There's no way you could teach that traditional. It just wouldn't happen. Melissa Breau: I know we're getting close to the end here, and there are three questions I always ask at the end of my first interview with someone. The first one is what's the dog-related accomplishment that you're proudest of — and I feel like you probably have some good ones. Michele Pouliot: I kind of feel like I have two different worlds that I've been in. One is a very serious type of work with the guide dog world and the other is my hobby in the sports. I have to say that being able to look back on my career with the guide dog industry, knowing that I've made a big change, now I am one of the catalysts that's really helped to move that whole industry forward, certainly is something I'm extremely proud of and makes me feel really content that I left that career, officially left the career, when everything was really moving along. That would be the guide dog side. The dog-related side would probably be just individual great performances I've had with my wonderful canine partners. When you said it, I probably had to think of my first Aussie in freestyle, Listo, who passed in 2014. But we've had some incredible performances. I don't know if I can pick one out. But one thing that he did do that no other dog has done is he — I know I should say “he and I together,” but I think of him as such an amazing dog performer. He was like an actor. He was so good at this that I felt like he was carrying me through some of the performances. He not only scored perfect scores from judges once, he did it twenty-four times. It is incredible, and a few of those were at international competitions where there was a judging panel of three judges, and all three judges gave him perfect scores. And I realize gave us perfect scores. But I would have to say that probably is one of the highlights of my hobby career. Just a couple of weekends ago, my young Aussie, we debuted a brand-new routine, and it's a very cool routine. I'm very, very proud of this routine. In fact, we dedicated it to Listo. It's a very cool routine, and he did it so well for his first time. I was totally blown away with how well he did, and he got a perfect score. Melissa Breau: That's awesome. Michele Pouliot: For my young boy to get a perfect score was a really cool thing. So there I gave you the serious side of dog training and the fun side. Melissa Breau: Congrats on the new perfect score. That's awesome. Michele Pouliot: Thank you. Melissa Breau: The second question on my list is about training advice, and I wanted to ask what the best piece of training advice you've ever heard is. Michele Pouliot: Oh, so many to choose from. I am going to reach down deep to the first one I ever remember hearing that changed my life, and that was Linda Tellington. In 1970, I was having trouble working with a horse. She stopped me, and she walked over and very quietly said, “Listen to him.” And ever since then, I listen so hard to my learners, and that includes horses, dogs, people that I'm teaching. It's listening, paying attention to what's happening, because they're giving you so much information that so many people ignore. So I think that would be the first one, because it has affected me, it's so much a part of who I am when I train is really noticing what's happening quickly, not waiting until we get five minutes into it to go, “Oh, I guess that's not working.” Then the other one would be Dr. Phil's mantra, “How's that working for you?” Melissa Breau: I like that. Michele Pouliot: I say that at seminars all the time. I say it to myself. It's like somebody comes up with all these questions, “Why is he doing that? Well, I've been doing it this way.” And I go, “Well, how's that working for you?” It's a great mantra, so I find myself going back to that. It actually is usually quite appropriate for most situations to ask yourself that, or to ask someone else, so I'll just stick with those two for now. Melissa Breau: Absolutely, and it relates back to the first one. If you're not listening and you ask yourself, “How's that working for you?” it's going to remind you... My last question here: Who is somebody else in the training world that you look up to? Michele Pouliot: That would probably be Ken Ramirez and Kathy Sdao, both. They have been my lights in the distance when I started this guide dog movement to change to positive reinforcement training. Both of them … without them, I don't know if I could have made it happen, because they again were so supportive of what we were doing, and yet knowing a lot of what we were doing they did not like at that time. They were able to put blinders on and ignore some of what they were looking at, and focus on the stuff we were getting better at, knowing that when more time went, we'd be ready for the next step to improve. And then, on a personal note, when I joined the faculty, just to have them be so wonderfully friendly and open and warm, and so interested in the way I think about training and what I do. They've just always been really dear to me. Melissa Breau: That's awesome. Thank you so much for coming on, Michele! This has been great. Michele Pouliot: You're welcome, and I thank you for having me. I enjoyed every bit of it. Melissa Breau: And thanks to our listeners for tuning in! We'll be back next week, this time with Amy Cook to talk about the true meaning of a threshold and how to manage your activity while you work on changing your dog's feelings about the thing. Credits: Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty-free by BenSound.com; the track featured here is called “Buddy.” Audio editing provided by Chris Lang.