Podcast appearances and mentions of heather heyer

What's the best way to fight evil? Laugh at fascist idiots and keep hunting Nazis, with your camera and the power of your voice.    This week, we're honored to welcome legend Sandi Bachom, an award-winning documentary filmmaker of such powerful films as Telling Jokes in Auschwitz and a Getty Images contributor whose work has appeared in acclaimed films like Laura Poitras's All The Beauty and All The Bloodshed, Danny's Strong's Dopesick, and Alex Gibney's Crime of the Century. But Sandi isn't just behind the camera—she's on the frontlines, documenting Nazis, like Trump's MAGA rallies, and the Charlottesville tiki torch march where Heather Heyer was murdered. Sandi was also at the Capitol on January 6th, capturing Trump's violent coup attempt in real time, footage used by the January 6 committee in Congress.  Stay loud. Stay brave. And as always—get ungaslit.    Join the Resistance Gaslit Nation Book Club: This Monday, March 31st at 4 PM ET, we're discussing From Dictatorship to Democracy by Gene Sharp—the handbook that inspired revolutions from Ukraine to the Arab Spring. Grab your copy in the show notes and join us!  Share Your Story: History is unfolding now—and we need your eyewitness accounts. Take our Reject Hypernormalization Survey (linked in the show notes) to combat gaslighting and preserve the truth.   This week's episode is sponsored by Factor: Eat smart with Factor. Get started at FACTOR MEALS.com/gaslit50off to get 50% off your first box plus free shipping.    Want to enjoy Gaslit Nation ad-free? Join our community of listeners for bonus shows, ad-free episodes, exclusive Q&A sessions, our group chat, invites to live events like our Monday political salons at 4pm ET over Zoom, and more! Sign up at Patreon.com/Gaslit!   Show Notes:   Take Gaslit Nation's Reject Hypernormalization Survey https://www.gaslitnationpod.com/survey-reject-hypernormalization   Read or listen to for free: Gene Sharp's From Dictatorship to Democracy https://archive.org/details/from_dictatorship_to_democracy_1306_librivox   Patti Smith clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wxqhg6z-t9o   Humiliation as Propaganda: Videos of Shackled Detainees Have History in El Salvador https://www.nytimes.com/2025/03/19/world/americas/deportation-videos-el-salvador.html Amid ‘DEI' purge, Pentagon removes webpage on Iwo Jima flag-raiser Pages celebrating Navajo code talkers and other minority service members were also erased. https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/2025/03/17/pentagon-dei-native-american-iwo-jima/     Olga Lautman unmasks the making of a Russian/Trump group chat: https://x.com/OlgaNYC1211/status/1904344536521797806   EVENTS AT GASLIT NATION: March 31 4pm ET – Gaslit Nation Book Club: From Dictatorship to Democracy: A Conceptual Framework for Liberation, which informed revolts in Ukraine, the Arab Spring, Hong Kong, and beyond NEW! April 7 4pm ET – Security Committee Presents at the Gaslit Nation Salon. Don't miss it! Indiana-based listeners launched a Signal group for others in the state to join, available on Patreon.  Florida-based listeners are going strong meeting in person. Be sure to join their Signal groupavailable on Patreon.  Have you taken Gaslit Nation's HyperNormalization Survey Yet?: https://www.gaslitnationpod.com/survey-reject-hypernormalization Gaslit Nation Salons take place Mondays 4pm ET over Zoom and the first ~40 minutes are recorded and shared on Patreon.com/Gaslit for our community  

You can just listen to episode 15, or start at the beginning of the podcast series at davidrovics.com/ahistoryoftheworld. 2016-2020 Thousands of people travel from all over to protest against the pipeline being put through the Standing Rock reservation in North Dakota (“Standing Rock”) Grenfell Tower burns in London, killing 72 (“Names and Addresses”) White supremacists rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, killing Heather Heyer and injuring dozens (“Today in Charlottesville”) The state of Arizona cracks down further on those trying to keep refugees from dying on the border (“I Was a Stranger”) The Trump administration institutes the child separation policy on the US-Mexico border (“ICE”) Willem van Spronsen dies in an effort to prevent refugees from being deported in Tacoma, Washington (“The Time to Act”) The Great March of Return begins in Palestine on Land Day in 2018 (“Land Day”) Two-year-old refugee, Mawda Shawri, is killed by police in Belgium (“Mawda Was Her Name”) Wikileaks founder, Julian Assange, is forcibly removed from the Ecuadorian Embassy and imprisoned at Belmarsh (“Behind These Prison Walls”) Stella Moris announces to the world that she and Julian have two children (“When Julian Met Stella”) Annual numbers of people dying on the streets of Los Angeles County exceeds 1,000 for the first time (“Living on the Streets of LA”) Bernie Sanders runs for president again and has his campaign sabotaged by the Democratic National Committee (“Bernie 2020”) Jason Hargrove becomes one of the first “essential workers” to die from Covid-19 in the US (“Essentially Expandable”) The Oregon Employment Department demonstrates itself to be completely unprepared for the Covid-19 emergency (“Ballad of the Oregon Employment Department”)

I sit down with the MC, journalist, and political activist know as Awkword. We talk about the intersection of politics and hip-hop, the impact of Charlottesville, and how redemption can work.Find this episode on your favorite podcast player here:https://pod.link/1647010767/Here are some of the sources and references from this episode:This is Awkwordhttps://www.thisisawkword.com/musicAwkword on Bandcamphttps://awkword.bandcamp.comInterview With AWKWORD (@AWKWORDrap) ! - I Am Hip-Hop Magazinehttps://www.iamhiphopmagazine.com/interview-awkword-awkwordrap/Outside the Lines With Rap Genius – New Podcast: Awkword (#47)https://genius.com/Outside-the-lines-with-rap-genius-new-podcast-awkword-47-annotatedPublic Enemy: A New Era Of The Black Power Movement https://hsac.commons.gc.cuny.edu/public-enemy-a-new-era-of-the-black-power-movement/Did Occupy Wall Street Make a Difference?https://www.thenation.com/article/society/ows-occupy-zuccotti-protest/James Alex Fields found guilty of killing Heather Heyer during violent Charlottesville white nationalist rallyhttps://www.nbcnews.com/news/crime-courts/james-alex-fields-found-guilty-killing-heather-heyer-during-violent-n945186Episode 133 - Leaving the Alt-Right w/Evan McLarenAbout the Seattle Consent Decreehttps://seattlepolicemonitor.org/overviewOp-Ed: Walking Away from the Empty Promise of Seattle's Consent Decree - The Urbanisthttps://www.theurbanist.org/2023/09/08/op-ed-walking-away-from-the-empty-promise-of-seattles-consent-decree/Questions? Comments? Email:griff@didnothingwrongpod.com This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.didnothingwrongpod.com/subscribe

Click Here to Read the Article Full Article Below: “The Lord detests lying lips, but he delights in people who are trustworthy.”(Proverbs 12:22, NIV)  This election cycle has highlighted something we see and hear so often that many have stopped being outraged about it. That “something” is lying. In the world of politics and the larger society, the response to egregious acts by one or by the few is often, “Well, everyone does it.“ When I was a child—and perhaps you had the same experience— trying to downplay some lie or bad deed by attempting to deflect and bring others in the wrong. “Johnny did it too!” was met with a swift and strong rebuke from my mother, “I am talking to YOU!” This is Called “Moral Equivalence” Moral equivalence is the concept or rhetorical device that suggests two actions or behaviors, which may differ in degree or context, are equally morally wrong or right. It is often used in debates or discussions to compare actions by arguing that one is no worse or better than the other, even if the situations or outcomes differ significantly. (OpenAI 2024) Interestingly, this childhood ploy is still being used by adults. As an example and learning moment for this issue, I give you Donald J. Trump. To the fact that this man is a liar cannot be disputed. The phenomenon of the abundance of his lies have normalized the behavior for many. It's become like the scar that looses sensation. It's like all the junk in a room that is no longer noticed. It is the thing that no longer produces outrage as it once did. Moral equivalence is among the weakest of all arguments and responses. In essence, this is not much different than the events that took place in August 2017 in Charlottesville, Virginia, during the “Unite the Right” rally. It was a gathering of white supremacists, neo-Nazis, and far-right groups protesting the planned removal of a statue of Confederate General Robert E. Lee. Hundreds of white supremacists marched through the University of Virginia's campus carrying torches and chanting racist and anti-Semitic slogans such as “Jews will not replace us” and “White lives matter.” They clashed with counter-protesters, leading to several injuries and the death of Heather Heyer who was hit by a car. To this racist gathering, then President Donald Trump stated, “There are good people on both sides.” The worst response is making peace with lies and attempts at moral equivalence by accepting and accommodating abhorrent behavior. Some may think, “That's just the way it is.” If that was the attitude of our African American ancestors, we would still be segregated, unable to vote, locked out of opportunity, uneducated, giving deference to White supremacists, and much more. If there is any group of people who will not settle for an evil or ungodly status quo, it is Black people. It has often been said that African-Americans are the moral conscience to our nation. The survival and flourishing of African Americans, despite centuries of oppression, symbolize resilience, hope, and the enduring belief in the possibility of change. Their continued pursuit of justice often forces the broader society to reflect on its moral compass and reconsider what it means to be an ethical nation. African Americans have played a pivotal role in calling the U.S. to a higher moral standard, reminding the country that its true greatness lies in achieving justice and equality for all its citizens. By continually exposing the disconnect between American ideals and realities, African Americans have often acted as the moral conscience, pushing the nation toward a more just and inclusive future. (OpenAI 2024) So it is interesting, that this election cycle features the most egregious liar among national politicians we have witnessed in our lifetime seeking to re-occupy the highest office in our nation, former President Trump (DJT). It is fitting that he would be held to account by a Black woman, Vice President Kamala Harris, who became the Democratic nominee for President of the United States after the courageous act of President Joe Biden stepping aside. It is also ironic that DJT may be defeated by a woman and Black person, representing individuals who have been disparaged by him for decades. History may show that the presidential debate of September 10, 2024 was a vital component in the undoing of DJT and the MAGA movement. Kamala Harris's rhetorical domination of Trump triggered outrageous and unguarded responses from him. People who are deceitful and lie depend on obfuscation and systems of concealment to hide their true nature and deeds. What 67 million people saw on that evening cannot be unseen. It will forever live on YouTube and the transcript will always provide documentation. It has become the receipt of an event that can never be denied. During the civil rights movement, one of the strategies was to expose the racism of people in the South who opposed the dignity and constitutional rights of Black people. This was the purpose of bus boycotts, freedom rides, marches, and other actions to attract the attention of local people and the entire nation. People who lie and deceive depend on cultivating false narratives, controlling media reports, and systems that downplay the blatant evil of their ways. The Decline of White Evangelical Credibility One of the most disappointing outcomes of the phenomenon of DJT is the strong support by white evangelical Christians. 80% supported his presidential election in 2016. Even after his disastrous term and Office, they supported him again at 80% in 2000. In 2024, his support among white evangelicals hovers at 80%. Through his entire presence on the political scene, going back to the days when Barack Obama ran for president, DJT engaged in lies and misrepresentations. This included the “birther” conspiracy that falsely alleged that Barack Obama was not born in the USA. For his campaign, Trump declared that he would be “self funding” his campaign––he didn't. For nine years he has been promising to replace the Affordable Care Act (Obamacare) with a “better” plan. When pressed on September 10 at the debate about his health plan, he said, “I have concepts of a plan.” Another lie. A compilation of DJT lies on Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_or_misleading_statements_by_Donald_Trump One of the most important virtues of the Christian church should be allegiance to the Lord Jesus Christ and to the Holy Spirit, who is the Spirit of Truth. This truth does not only refer to Scriptural truth, but I believe it also necessitates acceptance of objective truth, such as facts in life and in science. Not the least of these imperatives is the mandate to live the truth. One of the unhealthy effects of compromising truth or remaining inactive and silent when action and speaking out are needed is settling into something referred to as “lie fatigue” or “deception fatigue.” It is a condition of becoming desensitized to people who constantly lie. Over time, when someone is exposed to frequent dishonesty, they may become emotionally numb or indifferent to the lies. This can lead to a lack of trust and lowered expectations. It may also cause someone to stop reacting or caring about the lies altogether. It is my point of view that this has become the state of people devoted to DJT, in what has been characterized as a cultish relationship: believing the leader, no matter what he says, or does, justifying lies, dismissing wrongdoing, and chastising others for disagreeing. Psychologically, this desensitization can be a defense mechanism, where individuals protect themselves from the emotional stress and frustration of repeatedly encountering lies. In some cases, it may be part of broader emotional burnout, where a person becomes numb not only to lying but to other forms of emotional manipulation or stress. (OpenAI 2024) Below are some of the well-known dynamics between cult leaders, and followers. I don't presume to assign these behaviors to all followers of DJT. Again, the dynamics of this election cycle are teaching moments that can be applied to other contexts. Us vs. Them Mentality: Cults often cultivate a mentality where the group is seen as superior, and outsiders are considered enemies or threats. Religious or Spiritual Manipulation False Prophecies or Doomsday Scenarios: Cult leaders may use religious or spiritual manipulation, claiming divine authority or predicting apocalyptic events to control members through fear. Promises of Salvation: Cults often promise special knowledge, enlightenment, or salvation that can only be attained through loyalty to the group, making members feel they must stay to secure their spiritual future. (OpenAI 2024) Christians who strongly support Donald Trump or believe the Republican party is the only one that is approved by God are forced to compromise their faith to accommodate his behavior. This leads to something called Cognitive Dissonance.” Cognitive dissonance is a psychological concept that refers to the mental discomfort or tension a person feels when they hold two or more contradictory beliefs, values, or attitudes simultaneously. This discomfort often leads to an internal motivation to reduce the dissonance, either by changing one of the conflicting beliefs, acquiring new information, or minimizing the importance of the conflict. (OpenAI 2024) Holding contradictory beliefs or performing actions that are inconsistent with their personal values, leads to cognitive dissonance. Persons may rationalize the harmful behaviors and lies such as from DJT as necessary for the “greater good.” Seeking to reduce the dissonance, values are compromised, faith in Jesus Christ is undermined, and allegiance to truth is replaced by allegiance to a man. Christians should appreciate our distinct role as citizens in which voting is not a spiritual act. It is a civil act that deserves a rational and objective assessment of candidates regarding their core competence. Single issue voting contributes to manipulation on the part of candidates who would use Christianity for self-serving purposes. The most common example is a candidate saying he is “pro-life,” but shows no actual care for unborn or born lives. The "Big Lie" Our modern lexicon now includes the words, "The Big Lie" which we all know refers to DJT's denial of the outcome of the 2000 election which he lost. At the heart of this lie was the rejection of our Democratic system of excepting defeat, gracefully conceding, and supporting the peaceful transfer of power. As we all know, in defying our democratic system, he sought to overturn a free and fair election by inciting an insurrection on January 6, 2021 that resulted in the injury in death of some capital police officers. Another "Big Lie" Lies about immigrants fomented by DJT accuse them of "poisoning the blood of our nation," which is a white supremacist mindset. This conspiracy contributed to his nonsensical accusation of Haitians in Ohio abducting and eating resident's pets. This insanity spoken to an audience of 67 million people during the debate should overshadow any other thing he says until the election on November 5. His lies have endangered the lives of Haitian (Black) people and put families and children at risk. The biblical practice of assigning spiritual value to political figures and to voting has contributed to the confusion and enabling of a man, Donald Trump, who exhibits no Christian fruit. In reality, if we wanted to make a spiritual assessment of the man, many Scriptures would offer perspective, including Proverbs 6:12 NLT: “What are worthless and wicked people like? They are constant liars."  “Sometimes people don't want to hear the truth because they don't want their illusions destroyed.” ~ Friedrich Nietzsche Rev. Bryan Hudson, D.Min. September 15, 2024   ____________________________________________   Related Post: "Democracy In Peril: Dishonest Scales & White Privilege – Thoughts From the Presidential Debate of September 10, 2024"

Het plaatsje Charlottesville staat sinds 2017 symbool voor hoe politieke polarisatie kan uitmonden in dodelijk geweld. In dat jaar botsten extreemrechtse en linkse betogers met elkaar, met de dood van de 32-jarige Heather Heyer als gevolg. Tijdens het verhitte presidentsdebat tussen Kamala Harris en Donald Trump van afgelopen week werd Charlottesville dan ook opnieuw als waarschuwing aangehaald voor politiek geweld. Telegraafcorrespondent Paul Jansen reisde daags na het debat naar Virginia om de stemming te peilen en zag hoe de kloof tussen links en rechts alleen maar dieper lijkt te worden. Ondertussen vragen steeds meer Amerikanen zich af wie Laura Loomer toch is. De 31-jarige complotdenker duikt de laatste tijd bijzonder vaak op in de entourage van Donald Trump en zou een flinke vinger in de pap hebben gehad bij de voorbereiding van het voor the Donald slecht verlopen debat.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Lauren Manning is a former white nationalist skinhead who now works with a group called Life After Hate to help and support people who are ready to leave extremism behind.Find this episode on your favorite podcast player here: https://pod.link/1647010767/Here are some of the sources and references from this episode: WALKING AWAY FROM HATE Our Journey Through Extremismhttps://www.tidewaterpress.ca/walking-away-from-hate/AFTER MY DAD DIED, I FOUND A NEW FAMILY IN A WHITE-POWER GANG. I SPENT YEARS DRESSING LIKE A SKINHEAD, FIGHTING STRANGERS AND COMMITTING PETTY CRIMES BEFORE I REALIZED THE ABSURDITY OF MY BELIEFS. INSIDE THE TWISTED WORLD OF TORONTO'S WHITE SUPREMACIST MOVEMENThttps://torontolife.com/memoir/i-spent-five-years-in-a-white-power-gang-inside-the-twisted-world-of-torontos-white-supremacist-movement/Life After Hatehttps://www.lifeafterhate.orgThe death of Heather Heyer in Charlottesville changed my lifehttps://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-the-death-of-heather-heyer-in-charlottesville-changed-my-life/'I was a drunk thug': Hate crimes are growing. These former white supremacists want to end the violence.https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2023/05/06/these-former-white-supremacist-group-members-work-to-counter-extremism/70187877007/Life After Hate Details Best Practice for Using Former Violent Extremists as Peer Mentors; Demands Greater Professionalism, Oversight in Disengagement Workhttps://nonprofitwire.com/press-release/life-after-hate-details-best-practice-for-using-former-violent-extremists-as-peer-mentors-demands-greater-professionalism-oversight-in-disengagement-work-301786767/Comments? Suggestions? Email: didnothingwrongpod@protonmail.com This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.didnothingwrongpod.com/subscribe

Book bans, political violence, and other hallmarks of Christian nationalism are not things many people imagine just showing up in their backyard. But that's exactly what happened to Dr. Nichole Flores in her community of Charlottesville, Virginia, in 2017. Dr. Flores is an associate professor of religious studies at the University of Virginia whose work focuses on justice, democracy, migration, family, gender, and economics. She is Catholic, Latina, and a wife and mother and, like so many residents of Charlottesville, she witnessed the unthinkable when white supremacists with tiki torches marched on her city and killed one young activist, Heather Heyer, in a car attack. You can learn more about Nichole Flores and Charlottesville in the links below: Nichole Flores' publications: https://uva.theopenscholar.com/nichole-flores NPR report on Charlottesville's removal of Confederate statues in 2021 https://www.npr.org/2021/07/10/1014926659/charlottesville-removes-robert-e-lee-statue-that-sparked-a-deadly-rally  

Episode Summary This week on Live Like the World is Dying, Emily and Margaret talk about organizing against fascists while the Eye of Sauron is upon us. Emily breaks down the history of some far-right groups in the US as well as the history of opposition to them. She talks about how to organize against neo-Nazis, the interconnections of antifascism and transness, the perils of seeking asylum, and how to hunt Nazis and win. Guest Info Emily (she/her) can be found out in the world winning. Or, she can be found on Twitter @EmilyGorcenski or at www.emilygorcenski.com Host Info Margaret can be found on twitter @magpiekilljoy or instagram at @margaretkilljoy. Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Transcript Live Like the World is Dying: Emily on Antifascist Organizing & Hunting Nazis Margaret: Hello and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcasts what feels like the end times. I'm when your host, Margaret Killjoy, and today I'm excited. I guess I say that every single time that I'm excited. But it's actually true. I really...I wouldn't interview people if I wasn't excited about it. Today, we're going to talk about antifascism. There's going to be a couple of weeks--I don't actually know what order they're gonna come out--And maybe you've already heard me talking about antifascism recently, but nothing feels more important in terms of community preparedness than stopping fascism. So, that's what we're going to talk about today. And today, we're going to talk with someone who was involved in organizing the counter protests in Charlottesville, the anti-Nazi side of Charlottesville, and has had to deal with the ramifications of that. And I think you'll get a lot out of it. But first, we're proud member of the Channel Zero Network of anarchists podcasts and here's a jingle from another show on the network da da duh da da. [humming a made up melody] Margaret: Alright, if you could introduce yourself with your name, your pronouns, and then I guess, a vague overview of who you are and why I had you on today. Emily: My name is Emily Gorcenski. She and her. And I am an activist from Charlottesville. I had called Charlottesville my home for about eight years before the infamous Unite the Right rally happened. And that sort of called me to anti- fascism. In the wake of all of that, I also started initiatives to digitally hunt Nazis and track them down, expose them, and understand how their networks operate, how their movements form and grow and evolve, and have been involved in sort of organizing against fascism for the last several years. Margaret: Awesome. This is going to be good stuff that we're going to talk about. Well, bad stuff, I suppose. So the Unite the Right rally, what was that? I mean? It's funny because it feels like it was either yesterday or 15 years ago. Emily: Yeah, both of those. It was both of those. Unite the Right was what a lot of people call "Charlottesville." It was the big neo-Nazi rally in August of 2017, August 11th and 12th to be precise, and it was one of several neo-Nazi rallies in Charlottesville. It was the biggest and got the most news coverage. During that summer...Locally, we call it the "summer of hate." We don't like to use the word "Charlottesville" to describe the moment in time because we are still a community, but it was the moment that you saw everything from the neo-Nazis marching with the swastika, to the terror attack, to Donald Trump saying there were very fine people on both sides. Margaret:Yeah, kind of it feels like the moment that sort of kicked off the modern Nazi-right. Like it feels like their big coming out party, their gender reveal--if Nazis a gender. I don't know if it's...Nazi might not be a gender. I hate to disrespect people's gender, but that might be not on the list. And I don't know what color they would use for fireworks. But it... Okay, so it feels like their coming-out, right, like it was this thing. And I'm kind of curious what your take on it is because from where I'm at it seems like kind of a little different than stuff had gone before and a lot of bad things happened. A lot of very bad things happened and we can talk about some of those things. But, it felt like kind of this like aberration. Everyone was like--I mean, except the president the US--everyone was like, "Oh fuck, that's bad. We don't like this. This is bad when Nazis march down the street with torches chanting, 'Jews will not replace us.'" Clearly this is bad. But it feels like...it does feel like it kind of worked for them to kick them off into the mainstream. Like it. It doesn't feel Like their movement has shrink since then, I guess I will say. Emily: I think it's a complicated. Yeah, that's a complicated topic. If you look at the history of what led up to Unite the Right, there were a number of neo-Nazi rallies, sort of the ascendance of the alt-right throughout the country, right. So we had Richard Spencer growing in prominence and forming the alt-right movement. We had these groups like Identity Europa and Vanguard America, and Traditionalist Worker Party. And all of them were sort of, they're holding these rallies all over the country, right. There were some in Pikeville, and there are some in in Huntington Beach, California, and there was some in in Berkeley, right, the the sort of infamous battles of Berkeley. And all of these events were sort of in the months around, I don't know, anywhere from one month before or two months before to a year, year and a half before, right. And this is sort of aligned with the ascendance of Donald Trump, the sort of hard shift right in American politics, the reaction to a lot of things, including Obergefell, the court case that legalized gay marriage, and two terms of a black man being president, right, there are a lot of factors that kind of started to swirl together and formed this vortex of the alt-right. And what happened in Unite the right was, this was...it was almost like that moment in an orchestra where everything was tuning up beforehand, right? You know, there was like the smaller rallies, there was some violence, there were some, you know, definitely some things that are fairly scary, but it was isolated. And it was easy for people to ignore. What happened in Charlottesville, everything came together. And when we saw on the night of August 11th, at the University of Virginia, the Nazis marching with the torches and chanting, "You will not replace us," and eventually, "Jews will not replace us," all of that started to come together to be like that moment that the orchestra starts playing, right. And I think ironically, August 11th was also their high watermark. Because even though we have seen fascism grow in power since then, the dynamics are much more complicated because those groups that organized and participated in Unite the Right have essentially been destroyed and that movement has essentially been destroyed. And so what we see is actually something that's morphing. And I think that's a much more important thing to understand. Margaret: Okay, that makes sense. That does kind of--because I don't hear people talking about the alt-right anymore, right? And a lot of the individual groups that made up yeah Unite the Right like, died, like the part of the Lord of the Rings, where the orc grabs the barrel of dynamite and runs towards the wall and blows up--maybe that...I think that was Lord of the Rings--to bring down the wall or whatever. Like because we don't talk about the alt-right anymore. We talked about the right wing. And now but it does seem like the right wing is now doing the things that the alt-right used to do. Like, why is it--I'm asking this like half earnestly and half to get a an answer from you--but like, why is it we got rid of, we voted out the far right politician and now things are going further and further right, even though he's gone. Does that relate to all of this? Emily: I think I think it does, right? So it's all about movement and counter-movement. We defeated the alt-right. We killed the alt-right. The alt-right didn't die. It didn't die of its own accord. it was killed. it was killed through through antifascist organizing, it was killed through through criminal charges being brought against key players, it was killed through alt-right people committing mass shootings and the movement being unable to recruit, and it was killed through civil court cases even. So there was a number of factors that killed that movement, but Margaret: I take back my comparison the to the Lord of the Rings guy. Emily: The thing about the alt-right, though, is that it doesn't need to exist anymore. Its purpose was simply to set an anchor point that everything else can be sort of tied around, right? And so actually what you see if you look at, over time. at these dynamics, you know, 2015, 2016, 2017, you had the alt-right movement on its upswing. 2018 It started to die. And by 2020 It was pretty much gone. On sort of that sort of downswing of the alt-right, you had groups like the Proud Boys starting to grow in power. So the Proud Boys existed as early as 2016. They participated in Unite the Right, but they were not a major factor. They didn't really participate in the organizing. They were kind of on the fence of "Should we? Should we not?" But they we're there. Enrique Tarrio was there. Many Proud Boys organizers were there. As the alt-right died, the Proud Boys started to gain in prominence. And the difference between the Proud Boys and the alt-right, is that the Proud Boys had more of a sanitized image in the public eye, right? They were led by a Hispanic man. And they were...they had these members that were like Samoan and Asian and they didn't look like the, you know, dapper Nazi with the fascy haircut and all that stuff. And that kind of...what the alt-right did is it created a foil for the Proud Boys, right? So, it was very easy for everyone to decry the alt-right after they committed a terror attack, murdered Heather Heyer, and did all this awful stuff using images of swastikas and stuff like that, right? It was to set a sort of expectation so far removed from what was acceptable, that as long as you weren't that, as long as you weren't the worst possible thing, you were probably pretty okay. And so now you see the Proud Boys and they got really involved in the electoral politics, right, they were really close to Roger Stone, and they had a really big part in the the J6 [January 6th] insurrection and all of this stuff, right? So, you see this sort of like...it's like a three phase current, right, as one, as one movement starts to decline, another movement starts to pick up, and now the Proud Boys are in the decline now. They're they're facing trial. The trial is currently ongoing. I don't know how it will end up. And you see these other movements start to pick up, right, and this is now more mainstream. Now we have more politicians like Ron DeSantis and they're bringing this explicitly fascist agenda into legislatures and into sort of normie spaces, even though it's the same exact thread that has been going through the alt-right, the Proud Boys, etc, all the way to like the white power movements. It's a lot of the same philosophy, but it presents itself differently. And so even though we elected out Trump, we didn't get rid of that undercurrent. We just changed the face of it. Margaret: Okay, so if we have these three phases, and this is a very--I'm not really saying...is a very convincing argument--that we have these three phases. And I really like focusing on this idea that this the first wave of it, at least, was stopped by antifascism and through a diversity of tactics, both electoral and direct action tactics. I want to come back to that because I want to talk about what those tactics are, but I want to ask about with this current wave, what do you think are effective organizing strategies? Like what can stop this? Because it does seem probably, legally speaking, no one's gonna go fistfight DeSantis in the street, right? No one's going to out him because we know who he is. He lives at Florida's White House. I don't know how governors live. What? Yeah, what do we do? Emily: I think this is why the diversity of tactics is so important, right? Because every movement has a different face. And it has a different way of operating. So you need to be able to confront it with different techniques. And I think that what's important about like the current wave of fascist organizing is that there actually does exist a long activist history of opposing what they're doing, right? This movement is not actually new. Everything that like Ron DeSantis is doing, Ron DeSantis is essentially a product of a decade's long evangelical project to essentially turn America into a theocracy, a christo-fascist theocracy. And so this is like, if you look at the history of how these groups have organized and tried to introduce bills and stuff like that, there's actually a really strong sort of cadre of people who can oppose those things through the systematic means that we have, right? And so some of the direct action, yes, you can go out on the street and you can punch Nazis and that's great. You don't want to go out into the street and punch Ron DeSantis. That's probably going to end really, really, really badly for you. Margaret: I feel like there's different ways of defining the word "want." "Shouldn't," maybe. Emily: Yeah, maybe yes. So I think that what we need to do is we actually need to look to these groups that have been opposing the other sort of things that this group that these these fascists have been focusing on over the last several years, like homeschooling, and parental rights, and the opposition to gay marriage, and, you know, things like the Tebow bill, if you remember the Tebow bill, right? It was this this whole thing about like using federal funds to allow home schooled athletes to participate in public college sports. And all of this is coming from the same core, right, and there are people who have been opposing this for a long time quite successfully. And so I think that what's important is actually to understand how to organize with them and follow their leadership and to try to muster up the resources that they can use to effectively oppose these things in the forms where these things can effectively be opposed. Now, there may come a time when that opposition renders itself ineffective, either the bills pass, or, you know, these groups just don't have enough money to fight all of the bills or whatever it might be, there will probably come a time when that no longer works. And then we have to look at other means, right? Funding battles in the courts, right? Use that system against them, you can protest outside of these people's houses, right, you can protest outside of these offices that our that are responsible for, you know, some of these consulting firms that are like, funding these politicians, right you can do, there's a bunch of direct action campaigns that you can choose to organize around that don't necessarily need to be movement versus movement in the streets type of confrontation, there are a lot of tools in the toolkit. And it's really important for us to be fluent with as many of them as we can, right. Organize boycotts, strikes, right, all of that stuff. Margaret: How do people get involved in that kind of stuff? Like, I mean, this would be true, regardless of the tactic, like one of the main questions that I get asked a lot, and I'm always sort of the wrong person ask because I don't have blanket answers and I can't necessarily speak to individuals and also I'm just not an organizer. If people say like, "Well, how do I get involved?" and whether it's how do I get involved in the groups that are fighting Nazis or doxing Nazis, or whatever, but also, how do you find the sorts of organizations that are fighting these bills? How do you? Yeah, how do you do it? Emily: Yeah, I think that the most important thing is to connect with your local community and see who's been organizing in your local community because they usually know the best, right. And even if they're not the ones that are opposing these things, they usually know who is and how to oppose it and stuff like that, or they usually know what groups are out there. There's also a lot of resources online, right. If you're opposed to like the hateful legislation that is being proposed and debated, there's like the Equality Network that tracks and, and lobbies against it and and they're different in each state--and some of the states are kind of mediocre, and some of them are actually pretty good--but they've been effective, right? And I think that what we forget is that what we're seeing now is not unique. It's barely even noteworthy compared to what we've seen over the last year. So right, there's like, 400 or so like anti-trans bills this year, right. But if you look at the last three years, there's been a thousand anti-LGBT bills that have been introduced, right? So, we know how to fight this stuff. And in these organizations that are putting themselves out there and raising funds and looking for volunteers and stuff like that have been showing leadership. Now, I don't always love equality, right? I don't the Equality Network, right. I love equality. But the Equality Network, right. I'm not always their biggest fan, right? If you don't know...like, you can start there and branch out. And I think that the most important thing is that a lot of people come to activism because they're upset with seeing something, they're hurt, they're feeling marginalized, they're feeling scared, and they feel like they need to do something. And that kind of gets bundled up with a feeling that nobody else is doing something. But it's not really true, right? There are people who are fighting these things. And the most important thing that you can do is actually just start with your local community, see who's doing what, go to your city council meetings, talk to your....you know, find your local Black Lives Matter chapter, find your local immigrant rights chapter, you know, whoever is fighting for....fighting against ICE, fighting against, you know, police violence, right? This exists in almost every community. And if it doesn't exist in your community, look at the neighboring community. Network with these people, because they have the leadership. Even if they're not fighting for the cause that you believe in directly, all of these causes are linked together and they will be able to help you. So that's the first step is just get to know people around you. Margaret: Well, it's good...that actually...you know, most of what we talked about on this show is preparedness, right, like how to store water and all that shit. And the number one thing in all of that is the same. It's literally the same. It's get to know your neighbors. And whether it's get to know your neighbors because you want to share water with them or get to know your neighbors because you want to know who is going to try and murder you as soon as it's legally allowed for them to murder you. getting to know the landscape of what's around you makes them a lot of sense to me. And it ties into something...Okay, so you're like talking about diversity of tactics often is used as this kind of like, way of saying, "Hey, more people should support more radical action." But it's worth also understanding that diversity of tactics also means like supporting action that like, isn't quite as radical seeming or as like revolutionary, like you might want in terms of just actually maintaining a decent platform from which to fight, right? It's like easier to fight for things when you're not in jail. It's easier to fight for things when you're not in the process of being forcibly detransitioned medically. And it's interesting because like, okay, earlier on, you talked about how one of the reasons that all this stuff came up is that people felt so aggrieved by the fact that we had two terms of a black president and we had gay marriage, you know, sanctified in law, or whatever. And it's funny, because in the crowds that I'm part of, two terms of a black president and gay marriage was like, so unimpressive. The left was like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah," right? Whereas meanwhile, I guess the right is, like frothing at the mouth that these things are happening, which makes me realize that they were a bigger deal all along, or something, you know, I don't know. Emily: Yeah, I think it's because the left is really good at judging situations as a...in their distance from where we want them to be. Right? So we judge things, as, you know, from how far are they from our ideal. The right doe opposite, right. They judge things as "How far is it from the norm," so things like gay marriage and a black president, those aren't really big things. Like a black president is not a big deal when they actually what you want to do is abolish the presidency, right? But if you're if you're a, you know, white Christian Evangelical that is a racist and, you know, maybe doesn't like openly support the Klan, but doesn't really denounce them either, right, like, that's a huge deal because you actually do believe in this notion that like white Christian men should be in charge of everything. And that means the presidency. And that means everything else, too. So, I think that part of what we have to do as organizers is actually try to look at where things are, and how our sort of political opponents are using change to drum up recruitment, and are using fear mongering and things like that, right. And we're so used to trying to judge based on the outcomes that we want that we miss that picture. Margaret: Now, I really liked that way of framing it. It's an interesting...do you think that relates to...there's there's sort of this cliche that the left will cast you out for one sin and the right will take you in for one virtue? Which I don't think is...doesn't have to be true, but... Emily: It doesn't have to. It doesn't have to be true. And it's not really true, right? Because there's much more complex dynamics on top of that. But I mean, it's really kind of like to same philosophy. Yeah, exactly. It's the right, well, if...they'll overlook a lot of failures if you can move the needle even one degree further, which is why you have things like fairly moderate, otherwise moderate politically women in the UK who are like, supporting the Proud Boys and these anti-trans issues, right? They're just like, "Oh, yeah, I don't care about the fact that you're basically a Nazi organization, as long as you also hate the trannies." Like, that's kind of how that is all working. Margaret: Yeah, and you have this thing that I wanted to be a bigger split than it was--although I think it's something worth holding on to--is that like, there's like Satanists and pagans throwing down alongside evangelical Christians because they're all Nazis together. And it like, it doesn't make any sense to me. I can't imagine--Well, it's hard to imagine being a Nazi period--but it's just like...You know, even like the rise of the Catholic right. I keep wanting to be like, "Y'all know that the evangelical right doesn't even think you're Christians. Like, they want to murder you too." That is the history of the United States. That is the history of large parts of Europe. Like, it's amazing who will decide the Nazis are on their side because they all hate the same people or whatever. Okay, so to tie this into the the trans thing, right? Both of us are in a book called No Pasarán on by Shane Burley, that you can go and get from wherever you get your books--this is really ad, this is a plug--and your piece in that talks about relating antifascism and transness. And when we talk about like a lot of the laws that are right now being challenged, a lot of the stuff that...currently, the Eye of Sauron seems to be on the trans community in particular. It's on lots of communities in particular, but like we're the ones in the news, even more than usual or something right now. I'm wondering if you kind of want to talk about antifascism and transness. And then we can kind of tie that back into this conversation. Emily: Yeah, sure. So the chapter I wrote is about looking at antifascism through the lens of transgender identity. And what I tried to do is to take a walk through the current day to the historical context and then back through to the current day of how fascist and far right movements have used trans people as scapegoats for a larger agenda, part of that agenda being hatred of other people, including hatred of the Jews, but also a power play, right? And I think part of the lesson of the chapter is that we need, we need to be much more careful and thoughtful in how we look at comparative analysis. Because there's sort of two schools of thought that are happening in the left, especially in social media discourse. One is, you know, you you sort of look at historical mapping, and you say, this is basically the same thing as this thing that happened in the past, right, like, the laws that are being passed against trans people now, it's like, just what happened in the Holocaust. And that's kind of a problematic comparison, right? But it's also, it's also like another thing where it's like, you also have people saying, "Oh, don't compare what like the bathroom bills are about to what happened during Jim Crow, because that's a problematic comparison," right? So these are two things, like two different perspectives. Or it's like, don't compare these two groups of people. And then another perspective is like, "Actually, these things are..." you know, because the first is like, "Don't compare these two, these two situations because, you know, people now don't have the same dynamics. There's not a racial element. There's not a history of slavery," for example, right? And the other school is kind of like, "Well, actually, you need to look at the causes. And you need to look at the factors that went into it." And I think that there's a little bit of both of these things that are going on, right. And so when we actually look at historically how trans people were targeted in the Holocaust and how gay people were targeted in the Holocaust--and they were. There were a lot of trans--what we would now, today, call transgender people--they didn't have those words back then and also they were speaking German--And, you know, and queer people. They were targeted in the Holocaust. But it's also impossible to separate the way that they were targeted from the anti-semitism, right. So a lot of trans people talk about, today, talk about like the raids and the Institut für Sexualwissenschaft [Institue for Sexual Science] in Tiergarten, Berlin. So, the Deutsche Studentenschaft, which was like kind of like the Proud Boys of its time, raided the archives of Magnus Hirschfeld, who is a sexual scientist at the time, and they burned those books and a lot of trans people love to focus on these images and say, "You know, these, these books were the archives of the Institute for Sexualwissenschaft, and it's partly true, right? But, it also erases a big part of that history because it wasn't only those books, it was also Jewish authors like Sigmund Freud. It was Carl Jung. It was Jewish scholars,and politicians, and philosophy. Margaret: So all of this homosexuality is all a Jewish plot to destroy the good German people? [said with dry sarcasm] Emily: Right. And if you actually look at the posters that the DST put up to recruit for what they were calling the aktion gegen den undeutschen Geist, the action against the un-German spirit. Their...one of their key like bold faced bullet points was "Our principle enemy is the Jew," and so what they were doing is they were using trans people as a way to attack Jews. It doesn't mean that trans people weren't attacked. What it means is that you have to recognize that, historically, there was an interconnection here. And so if when we're erasing that interconnection, we're losing out a big part of that history. And we're also losing out a big part of how we can fight against these movements. At the same time, when we, when we totally ignore these things, like when we say, "You know, don't compare the trans movement now to the civil rights struggle of before," we're missing out on how the right wing uses these arguments to recruit and to motivate, right. So yes, it's not true that trans people who are denied bathroom use now, they're not in the same position as black people were who were denied bathroom use during Jim Crow, right, but the arguments are very similar. The white Christians back then were saying "These black people are going to like go into the bathrooms and they're going to rape your women," right? They use the like the fragile virginity of the white American woman as this this sort of rallying cry to drum up support for their cause, which is very similar to the arguments that are being made against trans people now. So when we look at this sort of comparative analysis, we have to bring in sort of a two sided perspective. Margaret: Yeah, there's so much there. It's funny because my immediate instinct, and I don't know whether this comes from my position as a white American or something, is to...it would never occur to me to compare the bathroom bill to Jim Crow, right? That just, to me, seems like obvious that the foundation of slavery is so dramatic and so influential. When, as compared to when I think about being targeted by the Holocaust, you know, to me--and maybe it's just like, my Twitter brain or like constantly thinking about what people could say to undermine what I'm saying or find holes in it or whatever--to me, that feels like a not only a safer argument but a more logical argument because it's...I wouldn't compare what's happening to trans people as to what's happened to Jews in the Holocaust. I compare what happens to trans people, to what happened to trans people in the Holocaust. I can make that comparison. But I really, I think this is really useful, this thing that you're talking about because the way I've been talking about it lately, right, like a lot of the anti-trans stuff and the rhetoric right now on the not-far-right, but the middle right, is around trans athletes, right? Specifically, trans feminine people, participating in sports with other feminine people with similar levels of hormones and bone density and shit, or whatever. Whatever the fuck. And it's this wedge issue, right?. And if you take a step back--it's the reason I don't fucking discourse about that--is because it's a wedge issue. It is meant not to talk about trans people in sports but to use trans people in sports as to break off support for trans people in general from the rest of LGBT community with the eventual intention, I believe--I evade anything that seems conspiratorial, but this seems like the strategy that our enemies are taking--to then eventually, you weaken LGBT, you split them off. Homosexuality can be a larger wedge issue to start more and more just like basically dividing and conquering and, you know, with the eventual plan of making us no longer exist. Emily: Yeah, I don't think it's conspiracy, right, I think it's exactly true because they say so much. They say it like that. They say, "Let's split the T off of the LGB." I think that's absolutely true. And you're right, it is a wedge issue, it is a way to get us to fight amongst each other instead of fighting against them. At the same time, the answer to us fighting against each other, is actually to look outside of us and actually to go and seek the solidarity of other groups of people who are marginalized, right. And so I, like I'm really uncomfortable with some of the language. Like I've written about this, like, there's a big movement of like, "How do you apply for asylum?" right? I'm like, screaming at the top of my lungs, "Please do not do this." Because not only do you not understand how bad this process is for people who are actually seeking asylum--and you thinking that you're going to get some sort of preferential treatment to that is really problematic--but it will also ruin your life, and in ways that you don't yet know. And this is like that sort of, there's like a whiteness or an Americanness of the privilege to this, this thing that's being that's being promoted, right? And so I'm like really hesitant to embrace some of this catastrophizing language. Also, because we have seen stuff that is just as bad being done against people like immigrants at the southern border of the US, right, of Muslims during the early days of the Trump administration, right? We've seen this stuff, right. And what we should be doing is we should be banding together with solidarity with these groups and saying, "Look, it doesn't actually matter what our internal dramas are. What matters is that we must be united against this broader front, right? We have to unite against patriarchy, we have to unite against white supremacy, we have to unite against xenophobia, against anti-semitism, against Islamophobia, all of these things. And we have to, we have to come together, right. And so I'm a little uncomfortable with some of the things that have been sort of out there because it's such an internal focus on ourselves. And it's not really doing a great job at saying like, "Actually, you know, what, like, we've been saying, you know, 'First they came for the x...'" And we've been saying that about three different groups, four different groups over the last four years. At some point, you actually have to stop and think, "Actually, wait a second, I'm not the first. They were the first. And before them, or, you know, before them...before us, was them and before them was another group. Why don't we start building those connections? Why don't we start building those networks? Margaret: Right. Well, and that's actually why like, at the beginning, I was like, you know, the Eye of Sauron like currently on us, right? Like, it's not, it didn't start on us. We are not the primary....yeah, like, I guess I'm saying I agree with you. And then even in terms of when I think about the history of splitting up the movement and things like that, like I think about how the first thing that the Gay Liberation Front did after, in 1969, after Stonewall, you know, which was a very diverse crowd of different queer people fighting back against the repression as gay people, it was in this context of the late 60s in which all of these other struggles are happening. And the Gay Liberation Front, at least, and many other people, at least--whether because of their own intersectional marginalization or just out of having some awareness of history and present--worked together, right? Like the first actions of the Gay Liberation Front were to protest the Women's House of Detention where Afeni Shakur, Tupac Shakur's mother, was being held as part of the Panther 23 [Meant 21] trial, right. And the Gay Liberation Front, I don't think was even aware of Shakur's sexuality at this point--I don't actually know if she was at this point, it was around...I believe she had her realizations while she was in the Women's House of Detention--but they were doing that because they were part of the new left. They were part of...like, of course we roll with the Black Panthers, of course we work together with all of these other groups, all of these different marginalizations. And yeah, so in my mind, it's less like...yeah, rather than comparing ourselves one to one with other marginalized groups, yeah, we just need to be fucking working together. Emily: And I think it's also important, like, at the same time, that we don't...like the Eye of Sauron, as you said, it's on us now and it's going to look away. And it's probably going to look away pretty soon, right? The right wing doesn't have the attention span to stay focused on one thing for a long time, right. Like, over the last five years, I've been called a terrorist by a government organization of some sort at least four times, right? And I'm still hearing, I'm still walking free, right? I remember when Antifa was a terrorist organization that Donald Trump was going to like executive order in prisons all, right? I remember all of this stuff. And I've been through so much of this, right? This focus on the trans thing, it's going to go away and it's going to be on somebody else. And what we should be doing is actually preparing for supporting that group, whoever it goes on to next whether it's Muslims, whether it's immigrants, whether it's Asians, right, remember when it was the Asian hate, right? That was at the beginning of the pandemic. All of this stuff, right. It's going to be something else, pretty soon and we just need to be prepared for that. But at the same time, I think we also owe ourselves this look at history to look at how these groups have won and how they have succeeded, even in the face of these, you know, incredible odds, right? Because, we actually owe ourselves a little bit of joy and hope at the same time, right? You don't become an antifascist, because you like, are a cynic, right? antifascism is about creating a better future. Nobody goes out into the street and like maybe gets shot because they don't believe that they can create a better world. So we do need to think about this as a struggle but a struggle that we will win and a struggle that is going to, you know, lead to a better future at the end of the day. So, I think it's really important to like, keep that sort of focus in that perspective. Margaret: That makes sense to me. One thing, I kind of want to push back a little bit on is about the asylum thing, where--and maybe it's just because my standard is that I do not judge people on whether they choose to fight or whether they choose to go, right? Like, I'm a bit of a stay-and-fight person myself, right. But, I think that there's also this thing where I'm coming at this as an adult, right? Like, the state I'm in will probably pass a law this year that will make it illegal for me to go to the grocery store. It probably won't be used against me. And I can put on pants and pass as a weird looking cis man with bangs, you know? And, but like, I have the tools to navigate that, right? But, the children who can't access gender-affirming care or the adults in some states that will no longer be able to access gender-affirming care without breaking the law--and I do think that there is a difference between...I guess you don't seek asylum in Oregon, right. You just moved to Oregon. But, I think that the general...I dunno, frankly, I think that a lot of people should, if they're able to, keep their passports current. Like, I...go ahead. Emily: Absolutely. Like there's nothing wrong with with fleeing, right? Nobody has to fight. I moved to Germany because I had a Nazi that was trying to kill me and like there were multiple attempts on my life. Right. I was SWAT'd. There was all sorts of stuff. Yeah, there's nothing there's nothing shameful about fleeing. Asylum is a very specific word, however. It has a legal meaning and it means a specific thing and a lot of people...like, yes, keep your passports handy. But before you even think about moving overseas and requesting asylum, talk to people who have done this because there's a lot of options out there for how you can do this safely, and not request asylum. Because, the thing that a lot of trans folks who are not organizing in solidarity, or who have not yet organized in solidarity, let's just say, with immigrants with with refugees and stuff like that do not understand how bad this process is. If you apply for asylum in Europe, for example, like some people are like, "I'm gonna go to Europe" First of all, Europe will deny your claim, almost certainly. I'm not a lawyer. Not legal advice. But, they will almost surely deny your claim. But they will only deny after two years, maybe. During those two years, you have to live in a detention center, essentially...not a detention center. It's called an Arrival Center. But it's essentially a camp. You have four square meters to yourself. You cannot work. You cannot travel. You can't leave the city or the state that you're in. Right? The medical care is worse than the medical care that you'll get even under the laws that are being passed in the United States. The violence in those centers is off the charts horrible, right. And there are trans people who have tried to apply to asylum. There's a there's a case, that I am not going to name to the person, but this person went to Sweden and applied for asylum and spent like 16 or 18 months there, living on the equivalent of $6 a day. And at the end, her claim was denied and was deported. And now she can't even come back to Europe, most likely. So it's a really, it's a really dangerous thing. And I really want to stress this for anyone that's out there. Talk to people who can help with this because this is...the stuff that's going around is so dangerous that if you don't have an expert supporting you, it's going to ruin your life. Margaret: Okay, now that that makes a lot of sense. I was thinking of it mostly in the context of like, leaving the country versus the specifics of seeking asylum. Emily: It's way easier to move to Minneapolis than it is to move to Madrid. Margaret: Right. And there is kind of a like, "Where we'll stay safe" is a very blurry thing, right? It is unlikely, but not outside the realm of possibility that we'll see federal bans on various things in United States, depending on how power can move. But it's unlikely, right? And, but at the same time, it's like, "Oh, yeah, that place that everyone loves all the trans people, and no one thinks we're horrible monsters who are against the will of God," that place, you know, like, I mean, there are places that are better and worse, don't get me wrong. But okay, so I want to I want to change gears and talk about digitally hunting Nazis because I feel like that's something that you have some experience with, is that fair to say? Emily: I think that I'm a pretty decent Nazi Hunter. I've exposed a few. Margaret: What's, you know, cuz it's funny, because I think about like, Okay, we've talked about how the landscape has changed to where it's no longer doxing and holding physical space in cities as like the two primary...Well, they were never the primary, but they're certainly the most visible and some of the easiest to sort of get involved in in some weird way because you can just...you can't just go fight Nazis, right? It's not a good idea. You should have support networks and all that shit. But it is like...it's like the advantage of direct action, as you can imagine point A to point B fairly easily. But even though the landscape has changed, I feel like a lot of people....his, like, the grassroots Nazis still exist, right? And like, they still, like I have my Nazi doxers who occasionally remind me that they exist and things like that, you know? And like, so it still feels like there is still this territory. And I'm curious about what your experiences has been hunting Nazis, like, what are some of the...what are some of like, the wins, you've gotten out of that and some of the things that you've learned from doing that? Emily: I think that what really makes me proud when I do that work is when I get somebody out of the community that could have done harm to that community. And by exposing these folks and by helping a community defend itself, I think that's the greatest reward. So there's a young neo-Nazi, who with his 17 year old wife, lit a synagogue and fire in Indiana, and I did a lot of work tracking down his case and researching the documents. And in following his case, I found that he was recruited along with his wife into Identity Europa and found evidence of some of the people that recruited him and how they met and how they brought him into the network and her into the network and exposed this information. And as it turns out, this information helped connect to an online presence to a real name, and it turns out that this woman was running a stand in the Farmers Market in Bloomington, Indiana, and was just there in the community every day, and she was a neo-Nazi recruiter. And when the community found out, they mobilized and they organized and they work to get this woman kicked out and pushed out a farmers market and totally disrupted her ability to organize and recruit for that group. And I think for me, that's like the reward of sort of hunting Nazis and exposing them is that you actually get to help a community defend itself. I think the thing that I've learned from doing this is that it's fucking dangerous. Because, what you're doing is actually you're exposing people to shame. And the reason that this sort of--we can call it doxing--the way that this sort of doxing works is that it has to be bad enough for a person to be shamed out of their community, right. We don't do it to harass, we don't do it to intimidate. It's done to give people the tools to say, "I'm not willing to have this person in my midst. I'm not willing to employ them. I'm not willing to go to school. I'm not willing to work with them." Shame has to be a factor, right? And when you shame people, they can react, and they can come after you and yeah, that's why I had like an Atomwaffen hit squad tried to fly to Germany to assassinate me once, so I knew that was always a possibility. Margaret: Aw, that's exciting. Emily: Yeah, that was very strange. It was really strange when the Berlin police, like the Berlin polizei slid into my Twitter, DMs. That's 100% true story. I will show I will show you the DMs if you want some day. Margaret: No, I believe you. The interactions I've had with German police have all been incredibly authoritarian and incredibly polite. Those are the two...whatever, I've only been stopped by the German police twice. And both times, very polite, very stern. Emily: That's, the German dream, that that's Deutschland for you. Very authoritarian and very polite. Margaret: Which, you know, I have feelings about but yeah, it is what it is. I guess...Damn, okay. So wait, tell me more about this hit squad. Like what happened? Emily: Yeah. I don't exactly know what the motivation was. But I got a DM from the Berlin polizei. They were trying to find me. Because apparently--we think it was the CIA because the CIA is responsible for protecting Americans overseas--But somebody had, through whatever surveillance they had on Atomwaffen, the Atomic Division in English, whatever like surveillance they had on this group, they detected that these folks were flying overseas and had intentions to be in Germany and that they had intercepted chats apparently, saying that they're going to try to find me at a demo and stab me. Which is very funny, because I don't really go to demos in Berlin. But anyways, that was their plan. And I think I know who these folks are. They ended up getting arrested and sent to prison at some point, not for trying to murder me but for other things. Margaret: For being an Atomwaffen. So pretty...Yeah. Yeah. I don't feel like that group deter deserves to be pronounced properly in German because I feel like that's like what they want is to be like, "We're good, proper German Nazis," but there's just some fucking...I mean, obviously, I'm not trying to....Well it's interesting, I do want to diminish them and make fun of them, but at the same time, like, there's a weird balance here, where you kind of want to be like, "Oh, you dumb little assholes," you know? Well, not, while still accepting that they're a very serious threat in some ways. You know? Emily: I could always speak actual German around them. And watch them be dumbfounded. Margaret: Yeah. Okay, so one of the things that stands out from what you just said about all this stuff--besides the how complicated of strange times we're in where the CIA is stopping Nazis from murdering antifascists--is the fact that this recruiter was at the farmer's market instead of like...like when I was more actively involved in stuff, it was like metal shows, you know, it was this like, it was a very subcultural milieu, the the Nazi scene. And I feel like this like move to farmer's markets is like worth exploring and talking about, you know, you have the kind of like, the way I usually see it expressed is like the crunchy granola to Nazi pipeline and things like that. And like you talked about how, like homeschooling was like a big avenue. Yeah. Do you want to talk more about that just to the why they're at farmer's markets? Emily: I think it's, you know, there's so many different factions of the far-right. And one of them is sort of this traditionalist faction, right, there's a lot of like homesteading, and there's a lot of prepping, and there's a lot of like live off the land and be independent and have lots of white children and be pregnant and barefoot all the time. That's part of this sort of Christian, this this far-right, like, Christian sort of segment of the far right. And there's also like it's part of this white Christian sort of traditionalist second segment of the far-right. There's also like, Neo-pagan segments of the far-right that are similar. But yeah, I think that there's there's a lot of this like mythology, right? One of the essential elements of fascism is that what differentiates fascism from other far-right, authoritarian ideologies, is that Fascism is fundamentally around sort of this mythos of rebirth, right? So these these mythologies around like folkish culture and traditionalism, and the rebirth of like, return to like proper America, and like, when men were men and women were women and all of that stuff, right? Yeah, this is part of the mythology of it. And so the difference, like the shift between the skinhead Nazi to the traditionalist Nazi, it's as much a matter of ideology and aesthetic as it is the degree to which they understand and embrace those elements of the fascist belief, right? And I think it's dangerous because so much of American identity is also about nuclear family and home values, like you know, good old fashioned values and home cooking, and you know, doing things with your mom and your dad and your 2.7 kids and having a white picket fence, right. So much of American culture is wrapped up into that, fascists have realized that it's really easy to prey on that. That's why you have Nazis at the farmer's market. Margaret:Yeah. Makes me sad, but I get it. So what are what are we...we're coming up on an hour, and I'm kind of wondering what's the question I should have asked you? What else do you think? Do you have any, any final thoughts or any like, you know, rousing "How do we solve all of this?" not to put you in, not to give you an awkward question. Emily: I would have asked me about what it's like beyond the activism? Right, because I've actually kind of retired from the activism. And I think that a lot of my perspective now, is about what it feels like to be in the middle of this whole milieu of the shit. And then to walk away from it. Margaret: Yeah. Alright. What's that like? Emily: So I don't know. I think that there's a few years where like, I spent almost every day looking through Discord logs, doing alt-right research, tracking their cases. I was spending thousands of dollars on pacer fees, downloading and court documents and all this shit, right. And I would end my workday, and I would go home and I wouldn't play video games, I would start hunting Nazis. And I would wake up in the weekends and I would update my website where I tracked Nazis and I did this and this was my life. And it was a way of dealing with trauma. There was also a time, still today, probably a week doesn't go by that I don't see the torches from from the rally from August 11th, right? So that trauma is still very present. And it was a response to it was my way of coping with it and dealing with it. And then when the insurrection happened, I kind of saw that as a passing of the torch. The insurrection was the moment that the alt-right stopped being relevant and the Republican-right started being relevant in this discussion of "Extremism," right? And I realized pretty quickly that I wasn't going to...one, I wasn't going to be able to keep up with it and two, my work was done. My goal was always to try to give tools to mainstream journalists so that they could write more effectively about what we were seeing in the world from the position of an antifascist, right? antifascist often have a really antagonistic relationship with the media and for very good reasons. At the same time, if you don't have relationships with the media, nobody's going to tell your story to that forum for you. You have to have some sort of ability to work with these groups of people in order to help get your message out. With these reporters and stuff, right. And I feel like since 2016 up until 2021 there were a lot of folks that actually started to figure out how to write about the far-right. They're not always perfect at it, they don't always do a good job, they sometimes fail to credit and stuff like that. All of those things are annoying, but I think that they covered substantively a lot of this much better. And I decided to retire from public activism. And now that I stepped back, and I can look at this, and I'm not on Twitter day to day, and I'm not, you know, in every debate and having every argument, I can actually sort of zoom out and feel like I can have a much broader picture. And it helps helps with like my mental health. And I think that's actually...I think it's actually important to also take breaks from this work. Because if you're just in the day after day, you're going to be fucking miserable. And it's, and you're not going to be able to change anything, you're not going to fix anything if you don't give yourself breaks. Margaret: That makes a lot of sense to me. I feel like there's a lot of cycling in and out. And I don't know, I do think that there's a difference between...I think that sometimes people and you're not necessarily doing it here, but sometimes people refer to it as sort of like leaving a thing, right, and being like done with it. Or like, sometimes people burn out so hard that they're like, "Now I'm apolitical," or, "Now I don't care," or whatever. And I think there's a very big difference between like, "My time in the front line of this particular struggle is done. And now I'm in this like, support role where mostly I'm living my life," you know, and I feel like--and maybe I say that, because that's what I do, right? Like, I'm no longer in the streets to the degree that I was when I was younger. But and I actually think it's useful for people to see folks like you, who are no longer doing something full time but still still existing in this. Like, I don't know how to say this. But it's just like, I think it's useful for people to see that it's like, this isn't everything. This is not the entire life, one's entire life is not the struggle and things like that, you know? Emily: Yeah. And I think one, people are doing it better than I ever have done it. The people, the work that's being done now is such high quality, like the antifascist groups that are out there, they're so good at what they do that I'm embarrassed to even be in the same breath as them, right? They're so much better. They're so much more rigorous, they're so much more careful, they're' so much more impersonal egoless, right, that I like, stand in awe watching what they do. And I don't even want to consider myself part of that because they're just on another plane. I think that when I started this, we didn't have enough people doing the work. And I'm happy that I was able to contribute. And I think that that's my chapter of it. antifascism is shift work, right? You can't work in solid...like part of solidarity work is knowing when to step up and knowing when to step back. I'm still writing, you know, I think I know that not everyone agrees with some of my takes. My goal is not to get everyone to agree with me. Right? I think that's also something that I'm trying to take away getting away from Twitter, right, is I don't actually necessarily need to convince you or to sell you or to get you to agree with me. What I want to do is actually give you something to think about. And I want to try to give you a lot of tools to view a problem from a variety of perspectives, knowing that we're all on the same side. Right. And so, I don't know, I'm just sort of hoping that that I can add, if there's anything that I still have to add to this fight, it's that there's a little bit of to add depth and sort of dimensionality to it, rather than just being front lines, whether it's digital front lines or physical front lines, just to try to add some...to broaden the spectrum. Margaret: That makes sense. Yeah, go ahead. Emily: And also, just to kind of live a good life. Like I was targeted by Andy Ngo for how long....I was like...Seb Gorka once followed me on Twitter, right, while he was in the White House, you know. There was like, Milo Yiannopoulos was targeting me, right. I went through all of this stuff. I had Atomwaffen trying, you know, flying overseas and threatening to execute me and all this stuff. It's like...none of them succeeded. None. Like Chris Danwell spent, has spent five years trying to put me in jail and has never succeeded. These folks, they're not winning. I won. Yeah. And what allowed me to say that I won is I can close my laptop whenever I want, I can walk out the door, I can breathe free air. And even though I will face oppression in everything that I do because I'm not white and because I'm trans, I still had the freedom of that choice. And that is something that the fascists can never take away from me. And I think that that is an act of defiance and antifascism too. Margaret: That makes a lot of sense. And that feels like maybe a good note to end on. If people want to find more of your work, or in a nice way, if people want to follow you do or....I mean, it sounds like you...do you want people to find your work? And if so, how can they do so? Emily: Um, you can you can google my name. I still syndicate stuff through Twitter, right? So you'll still see the links and the stuff that I do when I post, right. So you can twitter @EmilyGorcenski, you can go to emilygorcenski.com and see what I'm posting and half of it is about my day job working in technology and half of it is about trans issues or antifascism or politics and half of it is shitposting. And I know that that's three halves. But I'm a mathematician, so I get to make the rules with numbers. And yeah, I think that, you know, I'm on Mastodon as well, but it sounds complicated. So just like Google my name and figure it out. Margaret: Yeah. Okay. Well, thank you so much for coming on. And keep winning. It makes me happy. Emily: Thank you for having me and keep doing what you're doing because I couldn't be winning if it weren't for people like you. Thanks. Margaret: Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, you got something out of it then well, the main thing to do is to think about how to be in solidarity with different groups when the Eye of Sauron passes upon each of us, because it does stay in motion for better and worse. You can also, if you like this podcast, tell people about it. You can tell people about it on the internet. You can tell people about it in real life. You can tell your dog about it. Kind of the only person I'd be able to tell about it right now. Hey, Rintrah, I like this podcast. Rintrah doesn't care. I recommend telling people. Animals are great but people are most of our listeners as far as I'm aware. I'm about to shout out Hoss the Dog. Shout out to Hoss the Dog, our like longest standing Patreon backer. If you want to support us as well as Hoss the Dog has supported us, you can go to patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. And there you will see that we put out new content every month that actually anyone can access for free at tangledwilderness.org But, if you want it mailed to your house support us there. And also you get a discount on everything we do in the store. You can also check out our other podcasts. At the moment...well, there might even be a new one by the time this comes out because I'm recording this a little bit before this one comes out--but at the moment, there's Anarcho Geek Power Hour, for people who hate cops and like movies. And there's Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness for the content that we put out as Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness. That one comes out monthly. And I want to thank some of our backers. I want to thank Hoss the motherfucking Dog, who has been with us as a Patreon backer for years. Thank you Hoss, Michaiah, Chris, Sam, Kirk, Eleanor, Jenipher, Staro, Kat J., Chelsea, Dana, David, Nicole, Mikki, Paige, SJ, Shawn, Hunter, Theo, Boise Mutual Aid, Milica, Paparouna, Aly, Paige, Janice, Oxalis, and Jans. If you'd like to see your name on here, you can do it. You can even make it be a silly name that I have to say every time but not an offensive one because I wont do it, not even for money. Anyway, I hope you're doing as well as you can and I or one of the other hosts will see you next Friday. Find out more at https://live-like-the-world-is-dying.pinecast.co

Town Square with Ernie Manouse airs at 3 p.m. CT. Tune in on 88.7FM, listen online or subscribe to the podcast. Join the discussion at 888-486-9677, questions@townsquaretalk.org or @townsquaretalk. For the full hour, Ernie converses with Amy Spitalnick, Executive Director for Integrity First for America, who led the lawsuit against the white supremacists that planned the violent attacks in Charlottesville, Virginia, in 2017. She discusses her involvement with the case, details of what led up to the violence, and how her team was able to successfully win the lawsuit. Spitalnick also shares her thoughts on the similarities between the violence that took place at the U.S. Capitol Building on January 6, 2021, and the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville. Spitalnick also answers questions and offers advice on how to combat antisemitism, racism, and xenophobia, as well as the changes that need to be made to prevent further extremism from threatening our democracy. To learn more about Integrity First for America's work with the Charlottesville case and the impact the trial's victory has had in their fight against white supremacy, click here. This interview took place on October 25, 2022, at Holocaust Museum Houston. To learn more about their upcoming events, click here.   Guest: Amy Spitalnick Executive Director, Integrity First for America Town Square with Ernie Manouse is a gathering space for the community to come together and discuss the day's most important and pressing issues. Audio from today's show will be available after 5 p.m. CT. We also offer a free podcast here, on iTunes, and other apps.

Depositions are a crucial part of discovery—and they can also be, in the hands of a talented litigator, torture for the witness. So I suspect that many lawyers on the left—and beyond—might be jealous right now of Roberta “Robbie” Kaplan, the iconic lawyer and founding partner of Kaplan Hecker & Fink (“KHF”). Last month, Robbie had the pleasure of deposing former president Donald Trump—not once, but twice.I'm guessing it wasn't a fun experience for the Donald. His niece Mary Trump, who hired Kaplan Hecker to sue her uncle for fraud, described Robbie to Bloomberg as follows: “She's brilliant, she's unrelenting, she can't be intimidated, and she's not going to back down. She eats bullies… for lunch.”Deposing the president twice in the same month is only the latest distinction for Robbie, known for handling some of the most high-profile and high-stakes cases in the country. She's most well-known for representing the late Edie Windsor in United States v. Windsor, the landmark gay-rights case in which the Supreme Court held unconstitutional section 3 of the Defense of Marriage Act. But Robbie is also the lawyer of choice for major corporations like Goldman Sachs and Uber, who hire her and KHF to handle their most complex legal problems.On Monday, I was delighted to speak with Robbie for the fourth episode of the Original Jurisdiction podcast. She wasn't able to say much about the Trump depositions, but she did talk about her multiple cases against Trump in broader terms. We also spoke about what makes her unique as a litigator; her epic victory last year in Sines v. Kessler, in which she won damages of more than $25 million from the white supremacists behind the violent “Unite the Right” rally in Charlottesville in August 2017; her vision for Kaplan Hecker & Fink, the thriving litigation boutique she founded after more than two decades at Paul, Weiss; free-speech and cancel-culture controversies in the legal world; and whether she's a tough boss.Please check it out by clicking on the embed at the top of this post. Thanks!Show Notes:* Roberta A. Kaplan bio, Kaplan Hecker & Fink LLP* Then Comes Marriage: How Two Women Fought for and Won Equal Dignity for All, Amazon* A History-Making Litigator Leaves Biglaw To Launch A Boutique, by David Lat for Above the Law* Roberta Kaplan Builds Progressive Firm Suing Trump, Defending Wall Street, by Erik Larson for Bloomberg* 2020 Attorney of the Year: Roberta Kaplan, by Jane Wester for the New York Law Journal* Lady Justice and Charlottesville Nazis, by Dahlia Lithwick for Amicus/SlatePrefer reading to listening? A transcript of the entire episode appears below.Two quick notes:* This transcript has been cleaned up from the audio in ways that don't alter meaning—e.g., by deleting verbal filler or adding a word here or there to clarify meaning.* Because of length constraints, this newsletter may be truncated in email. To view the entire post, simply click on "View entire message" in your email app.David Lat: Hello, and welcome to the Original Jurisdiction podcast. I'm your host, David Lat, author of a Substack newsletter about law and the legal profession also named Original Jurisdiction, which you can read and subscribe to by going to davidlat.substack.com.You're listening to the fourth episode of this podcast, which airs every other Wednesday. Today I'm honored to be joined by one of the nation's most celebrated, successful, and significant litigators: Roberta “Robbie” Kaplan, founding partner of Kaplan Hecker & Fink. She is most famous for winning United States v. Windsor, the landmark case in which the Supreme Court held unconstitutional a key provision of the Defense of Marriage Act, paving the way for nationwide marriage equality a few years later. But she has worked on many other fascinating cases over the course of her career, including two pending cases against Donald Trump in which she deposed the former president—twice in the past month.Robbie was born in Cleveland and grew up in Ohio. After graduating from Harvard College, magna cum laude, and Columbia Law School, Robbie clerked for Judge Mark Wolf of the District of Massachusetts and the late Chief Judge Judith Kaye of the New York Court of Appeals, the state's highest court. Robbie then practiced for more than two decades at the major law firm of Paul, Weiss, where she built a thriving commercial and pro bono practice, including her big win in Windsor.In 2017, Robbie left Paul Weiss to launch Kaplan Hecker & Fink (“KHF”), one of the nation's top trial boutiques, known for handling both complex commercial and white-collar cases and landmark public-interest matters. One of the first such cases filed by KHF was Sines v. Kessler, a high-profile lawsuit under the Ku Klux Klan Act of 1871 against twenty-four neo-Nazi and white supremacist leaders responsible for organizing the racial- and religious-based violence in Charlottesville in August 2017. That case went to trial, and a year ago this month, the jury awarded a total of more than $25 million to Robbie's clients.In our conversation, Robbie and I talked about her various Trump cases, how she knew she was destined for a legal career from a very young age, two qualities that have made her so successful as a lawyer, how KHF has managed to be so financially successful while also doing so much public-interest work, and her vision for the firm's future. Without further ado, here's my interview of Roberta “Robbie” Kaplan.DL: Thanks so much for joining me, Robbie—it's an honor to have you!Roberta Kaplan: It's a pleasure to be here.DL: To start with what's in the news—and I feel like you're always in the news—what can you tell us about your latest high-profile case, namely, E. Jean Carroll's lawsuit against former president Donald Trump? I know that you recently deposed him. Is there anything you can say either about the deposition specifically or about the litigation more generally?RK: Sure. We actually have two litigations that are very active against Donald Trump, and I actually deposed him in both, on two successive weeks. So it was a relatively exhausting period for me. I literally went to Mar-a-Lago two weeks in a row to depose him. That's about all I can say about it, in terms of the depositions themselves.But in terms of the cases, it's very interesting. The E. Jean case, which you asked about, is on the fastest track. Right now, trial is scheduled to happen on February 6th. Right now we have one case against Donald Trump for the defamatory statements he made in June 2019. That case is currently certified to the D.C. Court of Appeals as to the question of whether when he made those statements, he was acting within the scope of his employment as president—sounds like kind of a crazy question, but that's the question. And the D.C. Court of Appeals, I believe, recognizing the need for speed here, has scheduled that case on a very, very expedited schedule, with oral arguments to be on January 10. So I think it's entirely possible that we have a ruling from the D.C. Court of Appeals before the trial before Judge [Lewis] Kaplan starts.Even if that's not true, however, we have a second case that we've told everyone in the world, including Judge Kaplan and Trump's lawyers, that we intend to file on November 24, which is the first day we can file it. That is a case directly for battery, the common-law cause of action by E. Jean against Donald Trump, based on a new law that was passed in New York called the Adult Survivors Act. It's patterned on the Child Victims Act, and it gives people who were survivors of rape that happened a long time ago basically a free one-year period to bring claims, notwithstanding statutes of limitations. That case we're definitely bringing out November 24th, and I don't think anyone will be surprised to learn that we probably will add to that case some new defamatory statements that Donald Trump made on Truth Social against our client—again, none of which are subject to any Westfall Act issue at all, because he wasn't president when he made them.So big picture, it's highly likely, particularly given the judge we have—Judge Kaplan, no relation—that we will go to trial on all or at least some of those claims in February.DL: Wow.RK: And the new case shouldn't really delay anything because it's basically the exact same facts. As we told the court, the only thing that's different about the new case is the damages theory, so we will have different experts. You obviously have different damages for being raped than you do for defamation. But that's really it. Everything else has already been done in discovery. Fact discovery is closed, and I see very little reason for any additional fact discovery, again, because the facts are totally overlapping.DL: So what are the two depositions? What was the difference between the two depos?RK: The first deposition, which happened the week before, was in our fraud case. Before Judge [Lorna] Schofield in the S.D.N.Y., we have a nationwide class action, on behalf of people who invested—I'm using the word “invested” in quotes—in a business opportunity—I'm using “business opportunity” in quotes too—that Donald Trump endorsed and heavily promoted before he was president, known as “ACN” or “American Communications Network.”It's a multilevel marketing scheme—I don't think even they deny that—in which people pay $500 or $1,000 to become part of this opportunity. Then the goal is to sell video phones. The idea of selling video phones when Skype and other software was already heavily in use—not really the smartest idea in the world—and when I say video phones, I mean big, standard-looking video phones, like I haven't seen since I was a young associate, probably.The only way to make money as part of this multilevel marketing scheme is to recruit other people in it. You don't make money from selling the phones, you make money from bringing other people in, which is the classic hallmark of a multilevel marketing scheme. Trump was paid a lot of money, at least $11 million or so, from this entity over a period of years. He went to conventions where these people were recruited, and he had huge crowds going nuts for him that kind of looked like his conventions now, honestly. And he said it was the greatest investment he's ever heard of, he did tons of due diligence, he knew it was a great company, a great business opportunity, “people think I do this for the money, but I just like being here.”I gave you a sense of the kind of the statements he made, and we allege those were all fraudulent, in that they were untrue and he knew them to be untrue. In that case too, fact discovery is closed—there are a couple of exceptions that the magistrate judge ordered, but it's essentially closed. But in that case, given how much bigger the scope is, we are about to go into expert discovery and then class certification. So that case is behind the E. Jean Carroll case for those reasons, although we're very eager to try it before the next presidential campaign for sure.DL: Oh, interesting.RK: Because we don't want to lose our defendant.DL: Indeed. Totally, totally.So to rewind a little bit… as I know from having read your wonderful memoir, Then Comes Marriage, you knew from an early age that you wanted to be a lawyer. What can you tell us about your childhood or your upbringing that might have shed light on your future career or that shaped your career choice as a lawyer?RK: When I was a kid, I liked to talk a lot. I still do. I spent a lot of time with my maternal grandmother, who was a very wise, very smart person. And there's a famous story in my family that when my uncle was in the Peace Corps in India at the time, and there is a series of letters between my mom, my grandmother, and my uncle from India, and in those letters—we still have copies—my grandmother is talking about how I just keep talking all time, and how at one point she said to me, ‘Robbie, you know I love you, but can you just be quiet for like three minutes? Can you stop for three minutes?' And I said something like, ‘No grandma, I can't. I just can't help myself. I love to talk.'DL: Ha!RK: And at a certain point, at a pretty young age, because I liked to read, I realized that if you're a lawyer, you got paid to talk. And I was like, “Okay, that's the job for me!”Then Sandra Day O'Connor—this is going to show my age, but she was made a Supreme Court justice, I believe when I was in high school. And that had a big impact on me at the time, because prior to that I don't think a lot of women thought they really had—not that I wanted to be a Supreme Court justice, but after that [women] thought they really had a future in the law. I remember that to this day, when that happened, what a big thing that was.And I just told everyone that I'm 85 years old….DL: Did judicial office ever cross your mind? Was that something you might have been interested in, in the past?RK: I certainly have a lot of friends who are judges and I admire what they do, and I think it's a great job. But I like to be a fighter. I like to be an advocate, and obviously I can't do that as judge. I think I would find it too quiet probably for my taste, even at the district-court or trial-court level. But there's no question that more and more we need great judges, and it's probably the single—at least in my job, in my world—the single most important job anyone can have. The only legal philosophy that ultimately works for me is legal realism, which means that often how a case goes—the pace of the case, how it flows, and ultimately what the result will be—is going to be based not only the philosophy but also the life experiences and understanding of the judge. That's just crucial. So the more people who are people of high character and great experience become judges, all the better.DL: I totally agree with you, totally agree. Looking at your remarkable career as a lawyer, what would you say is your superpower that is unique to Robbie Kaplan? Obviously, we know about how hard you work and how much you prepare, and of course your tactical brilliance, but is there something you would regard as a little different [about yourself]?RK: So I have a son who's now 16, but when he was little, one of his favorite books that I used to read, hundreds if not thousands of times, was called Dog with a Bone. And I think the reason I liked that book so much probably said something about me, which is that, as a lawyer, I really am like a dog with a bone. I do not give up as a lawyer. Our firm doesn't give up. And if I don't succeed on something the first time for a client, I succeed the second or third time, and it's that stubbornness maybe—stubbornness isn't usually considered a good quality, but it's that ability to keep on fighting, our resilience, that is our number-one quality.Then I'd say, second, creativity. I'm the least creative human being on the planet. I can't draw. My son goes crazy if I try to sing in the car because I'm so off key. I could never do creative writing. My pottery teacher basically kicked me out of class in high school because he asked me why every single pot I made look like a bong. And I wasn't even trying to make a bong! I was like, “I don't know what you mean!” So I have no artistic talent. But to the extent I have any creativity at all, I apply it to cases and the law, and how to achieve what we want to achieve for our clients in a creative and often unusual way.DL: That makes me think of the Charlottesville case, and your case against the individuals who caused such violence there and how you used a very old statute that was designed to be deployed against the Klan to go after these white supremacists, which was quite brilliant and creative. How did that theory come to you?RK: We saw what happened in Charlottesville, and we knew something had to be done about it. We were very concerned—and my firm had four people at the time, four lawyers—we were very concerned that the Department of Justice, then headed by Jeff Sessions, was not going do anything. Which we turned out to be right about.Pretty quickly after Charlottesville happened, someone got into the Discord servers that the organizers used and leaked a whole bunch of messages. This made it very clear that this was a conspiracy. So okay, great, we have the facts, we have clients, we went down there—but what law do we use? And there's not a lot, frankly, of current law to deal with this, in part because no one—I hope we're not going back to those times—but at least in my lifetime up to now, no one ever thought this was a huge problem. No one ever thought that we would have private conspiracies that were racially motivated, that planned, promoted, and engaged in violence. That may be changing, and that's one of the most disturbing things about our country right now, but that's generally been true for decades and decades.We had to go back and look for a statute called the KKK Act of 1871, which was passed to do exactly what it says it was passed to do, which was to try to curb the growth of the then-new Ku Klux Klan in the Deep South. Arguably it didn't have great success in that regard, but there were cases in the 1870s when it was passed trying to curtail or slow or stop the growth of the Klan.When you think about what happened in Charlottesville, though, it really is the modern-day version of what that Reconstruction Congress was trying to deal with. Back in the 1870s in Alabama, mostly men would don white robes and white hoods, and they would meet in the forest, and they would plan, tragically and horribly, a lynching or whatever they were going do.Today it's much easier. All you need is a hashtag on Parler or Discord or one of these dark websites, and it's like whack-a-mole—the minute one of the sites stops hosting these people, another one will take over. So all you need is a hashtag—that keeps your anonymity for the most part, unless you self-identify in your hashtag—and you don't have to go into the woods. Literally the guys who organized Charlottesville are from all over the country, and they all were able to plan nationwide and even internationally.When we filed the Charlottesville case—this is going to show how naive I was—I thought it was a terrible one-off, but it was a one-off, and we needed to bring the case so that it would never happen again. How wrong, in humility, I have to say I was, because not only was it not a one-off, it was really a harbinger, a kind of a road map to a lot of what has happened since then. Even this guy who attacked Nancy Pelosi's husband, while there weren't 20 guys who went to the house, everything that he believed and everything that he was motivated to do was based on these same kind of dark-web, white-supremacist, violent channels, which again, if you're interested or if you're a lonely guy who's looking for a community, it's pretty easy for you to get online and get indoctrinated in their thinking.DL: Absolutely. And I know this is perhaps a little far afield from your work as a lawyer, but maybe just even as a concerned citizen, how do we deal with this problem? How do we get ourselves out of this? It seems that it's just getting worse and worse.RK: I wish I knew. It's something I think and worry about all the time. We obviously—and I'm as committed as anyone to the First Amendment—we obviously have a right to free speech in our country, and we should have a right. But it may be both with the [Communications] Decency Act and with the case law, the developed case law in the First Amendment context, maybe [it] does not make sense in the modern day. For example, under Brandenburg, when you're doing something that wreaks havoc in a crowded theater, that may be translatable to things that people do online today in the dark web almost every single day. And whether our standards need to change to deal with that is a very, very serious question. Of course, whether or not this Supreme Court as currently constituted is open to hearing any of those arguments, I don't know.DL: That's very interesting. I wonder—because there are definitely some conservatives out there who want to revisit First Amendment doctrine as well—I wonder if this might be some weird area where maybe you agree with some of them?RK: We obviously have separation of church and state, though I'm a religious Jew, and Judaism going all the way back to the destruction of the Second Temple, in 62 AD or 66 AD, has been obsessed with speech. It's obsessed with speech because it understands that a lot of the damage that people can do to other people is through speaking. If you look at history, there's no question. Now, I'm not saying that we give up our right to free speech. It's embedded in our Constitution for good reason, and it came out of a world where people were severely restricted in what they could think and what they could say. But the link between certain kinds of speech and violence at this point is uncontroversial, and how we deal with speech that may not be committing violence, but is no question prompting and encouraging and invoking other people to commit violence, is a very serious issue.DL: Let me ask you this then, and again, perhaps I'm going a little bit out of what you usually focus on as a civil-rights, public-interest, and commercial litigator, but what is your take on what's happening to free speech in U.S. law schools right now? Because there have been speakers who have been shouted down, conservative speakers mainly, but of course, obviously conservatives have no problem going after free speech in other areas.What are your thoughts on that? Do you share the concern that certain speakers might come to law schools and inflict what activists call “harm” on students?RK: What I know about this, David, I mostly know from following your column, so that's basically the limit of my knowledge because I've been super-busy lately, but I have the general gist because you're a good journalist and I follow what you write. People have a right to protest. They should. But they don't have a right to protest in a way that stops other people from speaking.And there's no question that on both sides in our country right now—in fact, both the radical left and the radical right are looking more and more similar every day, which is petrifying because that's what it looked like in Germany in the thirties. So it's petrifying, but people both on the radical right and in the radical left who want to deprive other people of the ability to speak is not acceptable. It's not what the Founders meant. Speech and debate and discourse—even going back to Jewish law—is something to be highly encouraged. And we all make the situation worse, honestly, when we—I hate to use this expression, but when we cancel other people from expressing their views.Just because you don't agree with someone—I'm sure you and I don't agree on everything—doesn't mean that we shouldn't discuss and debate and argue with each other, and it's terribly distressing because it leads to the kind of breakdown in civil society I think that we're seeing today. And that's also incredibly scary.DL: Related to these cancel-culture controversies, what are your thoughts on the extent to which advocates can or should be held accountable for their clients? Even though you are most known or most famous for your civil-rights work, your public-interest work, you also represent Goldman Sachs, Airbnb, large companies, and there have been some on the left who have taken this sort of purist approach: “Oh, well, you represent all these progressive causes, but then you represent all these evil companies and defendants and what have you. “ So what are your thoughts on that, the extent to which lawyers should be held accountable for the sins of their clients?RK: I don't think lawyers should ever be held accountable for the sins of their clients. That's what lawyers do, and if lawyers were in any way held accountable for the sins of their clients, then we wouldn't really have a legal profession. The only exceptions to that would be when lawyers commit the sins of their clients as part of their representation, and that's where, for me, you can't cross the line. I think every lawyer I know weighs these things differently.Let me begin to say, I don't acknowledge for a second that Goldman Sachs or Airbnb or any of our other clients…DL: I'm playing devil's advocate—I have nothing against them personally….RK: … are evil or do anything evil or anything like that.You have to look at it differently in the criminal context than in the civil context. Criminally, I think my colleagues at Kaplan Hecker would say that everyone is entitled to a defense, and while there may be some criminal defendants that we wouldn't or that they wouldn't want to represent, the breadth of whom you represent criminally when someone's facing imprisonment is different than civil.Civilly, personally, it's a choice—and we, at Kaplan Hecker, think very seriously about these issues. We talk about them among the partners, and we won't take on a client who we feel somehow contravenes our values in some fundamental way. But that's a choice. I wouldn't judge another lawyer who did that because that's what lawyers do, if that makes sense.DL: That makes perfect sense, especially as you were saying in the civil context as well, because look, [clients] have a wide variety of lawyers they can choose from, and you have clients that you can choose from, you're very busy, and not everyone is entitled to Roberta Kaplan. I totally get that.RK: Other than E. Jean Carroll, who's entitled to me.DL: Indeed, indeed—and Edie Windsor, who was amazing, of course. This might be a dumb question, but is [Windsor] the win that you are most proud of in your long career? And if that is, then do you have a number two?RK: Charlottesville. Edie would be first, Charlottesville number two. Charlottesville, unfortunately—or fortunately, depending on how you look at it—was not covered that much. And the reason why is there were two highly racially motivated criminal trials going on at the same time. They were both in state court, so they were televised. So for the press, it was very easy to cover both those cases rather than cover Charlottesville, which had no cameras in the courtroom because we were in federal court, with very severe restrictions for Covid, and other things about access to the courtroom too. And I guess sadly in certain ways, the record we made wasn't really the focus of people's attention the way it should have been.But because of that, I don't think people realize how incredibly difficult it was. We were on trial for about four weeks. We had about a week of jury selection, so about five weeks total. Two of the defendants were pro se, Richard Spencer and Chris Cantwell. Chris Cantwell was then serving a sentence in federal prison for making violent threats against another white supremacist—I think he threatened to rape and kill his wife—but a week either before or after that, he made similar violent threats against me, saying something like, “When this case is over, we're gonna….”Can I swear on this?DL: Yeah, go for it.RK: “When this case is over, we're gonna have a lot of f**king fun with Robbie Kaplan.” And so we were in trial in this closed courtroom—the whole courthouse was closed, there was no other case going on for four weeks—with these two, with a bunch of defendants, but two of them who were pro se. I think Judge Moon rightly probably let them get away with almost anything they wanted to do because he was very concerned about an appellate record. And in retrospect, he was probably right.But living through it every day was extremely hard. They would just make incredibly outrageous arguments. Chris Cantwell in his closing started screaming, and I thought threatening the jury. The marshals would say to me, “Okay, you know, if Cantwell gets closer to you, we're gonna stay closer by you in case he tries anything.” It was crazy. And so just as a sheer endurance contest, and for being able to keep our dignity in the face of a trial where literally every day these guys were talking about how much they loved Mein Kampf—the rhetoric was unbelievable—is something I'm very proud of. And it's not just me, it's our entire team. I don't know how we did it so long, but we somehow managed to do it, and getting the verdict we did was incredible.DL: Absolutely. Congratulations. And Karen Dunn [of Paul, Weiss], Alan Levine [of Cooley]—you had a lot of other amazing lawyers involved as well, and other law firms. Did you have personal security at some point in addition to the marshals?RK: Yeah, I can't get into it, but yeah, so that made it hard too. We were really kind of trapped in the hotel in a lot of ways for security reasons. So imagine going from this closed-in courtroom to being trapped within the hotel for four weeks and thinking about how you're going to cross-examine someone about Mein Kampf or put on Deborah Lipstadt to talk about why these guys are obsessed with the Holocaust. It was something, for sure.DL: Yeah. But a great victory, a huge verdict, and a real blow against white supremacists and others who would harm the country.On a happier note, Kaplan Hecker & Fink celebrated its fifth anniversary, I guess this was over the summer?RK: Yeah, July 1.DL: Congratulations. What are you most proud of about the firm so far?RK: When we set out to create this firm, we had certain specific core values. One, doing work in the public interest together with commercial work and white-collar work. Two, having a paramount respect for maintaining our culture and making sure that we all liked each other and were friends and had the same values. And three, being as non-hierarchical as you can possibly be, in the sense that we hire, I think we now have 10 percent of our lawyers are Supreme Court clerks. That's kind of insane—like, I couldn't get a job with me anymore. But because we bring in such brilliant people, we make sure that we listen to their ideas, from day one.What I'm most proud of is that we kept to that. We really have to this day kept to that. Our greatest challenge, frankly, is not getting so large that we lose it. That's frankly the thing that we worry about the most right now. There are a number of partnerships where the partners don't know each other well enough to keep that sense of camaraderie and culture, and that's what we face every day. We're not there yet for sure, but that's what we think about a lot.DL: Right now the firm I think has around 60 lawyers, maybe 10 partners or so?RK: I think we're about—well, maybe about 13 or 14 partners.DL: Oh, okay.RK: And I think the limit for me, based on my experience, is about 25. Once you get to more than 25, it's hard for everyone to be friends the same way we are now. So we have some room to grow.DL: And what about total lawyers? Right now you're around 60-ish?RK: Yeah. Again, we don't know, but I think everyone agrees that at 125 we'd pretty much be at our limits. Again, we're nowhere near that now, but that's kind of what people have in mind, and I'm not sure all of us want to get even that big. We also, I think speaking unanimously for the partners, are not into this idea of having a lot of satellite offices.DL: That was my next question.RK: We have New York, which is kind of the main office, and then we have D.C., and I don't anticipate us expanding anywhere else. Before Covid, we might have thought about an office in California. One of the few good things about Covid, of very few good things, is that you see that you can practice across state lines in a much easier way than I ever anticipated. So I can't imagine [opening more offices] anytime in the near future.DL: Yeah, I totally agree with you. I don't think it's quite as imperative, and in this day and age of remote work, it is much easier.Let me ask you this question because people have asked me about it, and I'm genuinely curious for the answer. At Kaplan Hecker & Fink, you do tons of public interest work, you do tons of pro bono work, and then, on the other hand, you still pay above the Biglaw salary scale for associates.Something here is not computing. How do you do it? Maybe I'm being too nosy, but… are you content to just make, you know, a couple million rather than many millions, like you did at Paul, Weiss? What's the secret here?RK: I'm not going to get into any numbers—obviously, my partners would kill me—but let me put it this way: other than in our first year probably, I have not had to sacrifice anything financially at Kaplan Hecker & Fink.DL: Wow.RK: And I think for me and almost all the partners, we are doing appreciably better than we would have at big firms.What's our secret sauce? For one thing, we are very, very efficient. Even though our fees aren't significantly lower than big firms, our bills tend to be, because we don't have to have four levels of people working on something. The work product that we get from our associates is usually excellent and doesn't take as much work than it might at a big firm.Two, we're very creative about fee arrangements, which is also not a big-firm thing, at least in the past—it may be more so now. My managing partner, Julie Fink, was a client at Pfizer for years before she came here, and so she really understood this. We're very creative about success fees or contingency fees or flat fees in a way that I think is hard at big firms.DL: Hmm-mmm.RK: But suffice it to say that we're doing—knock wood, I'm knocking wood right now—we're doing okay, and we're pleased to be able to pay our associates and our staff the way we do. And money is not the paramount thing. No one comes to Kaplan Hecker thinking, “I want to earn as much as a hedge-fund person or an investment banker or a tech guy.” We do very well, and no one is in any financial distress. But maximizing dollar amounts per share, per partner, is not our number-one goal.DL: That makes perfect sense. I'm curious, since you mentioned contingency-fee arrangements—do you do a significant amount of plaintiff-side that work that helps generate unusually high revenue per lawyer, perhaps?RK: We've done some, we're certainly interested in doing more. We probably get, I don't know, I'd have to look at the numbers,.we get between six and a dozen people calling a week [with such cases]. We've probably turned down, I think the numbers have got to be 90, upwards of 95 percent of those. But the ones we take on tend to be profitable, so yes, that certainly helps the bottom line.DL: And then another thing I've heard about the firm is some of your public-interest work is also paid work, right? That it's not just entirely pro bono?RK: Yeah, some of it is funded. It's funded at a lower rate, so we have a public-interest rate we use that's about half our regular rate. We do a number of cases like that—a lot of the election work, cases that Joshua Matz does, are funded in that way.DL: Okay. So one last question before we go to my little lightning round of final questions. And again, maybe this is a delicate subject, but some people in the law firm world say you're a tough boss. Do you consider yourself a tough boss?RK: So let me tell you a story. Paul, Weiss had upward reviews. I don't remember when they started, but at some point when I was a partner, they started upward reviews. And my upward reviews—I'm not proud of this—but I would always have maybe one or two associates at a time that I didn't work so well with, and it always turned out that of the people who did the reviews, those would be the people who would turn in reviews. And so my upward reviews were not great. Then I did the Windsor case, and all of a sudden my upward reviews were stellar! I remember my wife saying to me, “Well, look, I don't understand.” Because I don't think I changed as a boss. I think what changed is the way people perceived me as a boss.DL: Hmm-mmm.RK: So, I don't know. Those were a long time ago, and I know I was under a lot of stress as a young partner at Paul, Weiss. But I don't think anyone today—you can ask them yourselves—has a problem with me as a boss. I certainly, and we all do, have high standards. We operate in very demanding situations, and our clients justifiably expect a lot from us. But I don't think anyone in the Charlottesville case or in E. Jean or in any of the paying matters for Airbnb or Uber would say I'm tough. If by tough you mean I have high standards, yes. But I'm also mentoring people and giving people opportunities to take depositions and to examine people at trial. We were the only firm in Charlottesville that had associates examining witnesses.DL: Wow. That's remarkable.RK: And that speaks for itself.DL: Totally, totally.So here are my standard final questions, which are standard for all my lawyer guests.My first is, what do you like the least about the law? And this can either be the practice of law or law as that abstract system that rules over us all.RK: I think what I like the least is the tendency of lawyers and judges at times to fail to see that behind all this case law and precedent and statutory language are real people, and that each case affects a real live person. And it's hard to keep those things balanced in your head, but good lawyers and good judges need to. And I sometimes find it very frustrating when people take things to such a level of abstraction that they fail to see the common humanity in what we do.DL: And I think that is one of your talents as a lawyer, just bringing out the humanity of your clients, whether it's Edie Windsor or Heather Heyer or E. Jean Carroll. I think your storytelling about these very real, flesh-and-blood people is something that just stands out about your practice,RK: Thank you, because I would like someone to say that about me, so I'm very pleased that you have. That's something we really care about a lot at Kaplan Hecker.DL: My second question is—and this'll be interesting because I know that from a young age, I think you have a line in your book about how at age 10 or 12, you were plotting out your legal career—what would you be if you were not a lawyer?RK: Believe it or not, because it's pretty timely, I thought seriously about becoming a Russian historian.DL: That was your undergrad major.RK: Yeah, I was a Russian history and lit major, and I spent—I think it was probably the single biggest influence on who I became—I spent the spring semester of my junior year in Moscow, in what was then the Soviet Union, but glasnost had been announced. So it was kind of the beginning of change, although change that didn't last very long. And I think that semester, I was fluent in Russian then, watching and living in what was then a totalitarian regime in, in a lot of ways—we were bugged and all kinds of things—just had a huge impact on the way I see the world. And maybe that made me a good lawyer, because I always expect the worst—which is a good thing as a lawyer in a lot of ways, because you want to be planning for and anticipating all contingencies.I ultimately realized that there are not a lot of happy years in Russian history, sadly continuing to today, and that if I became a Russian historian, it was going to be pretty depressing. But I originally went to law school just thinking, “Okay, this will be a way to figure out what else I want to do in my life.” And then I fell in love with it. I'd kind of forgotten about what I was thinking as a 10-year-old about getting paid to talk.Oh, and I flirted with the idea of going to the CIA.DL: Oh?RK: I started taking Russian because that was a big period of global crisis between the Soviet Union and the United States. My professor at Harvard was Richard Pipes, who came up with the phrase “the evil empire.” And I thought about it, but at that time, I don't think it would've been very easy for someone who was—I wasn't out as gay, but I certainly had concerns that I was gay and or lesbian, and I was smart enough to know that that probably wouldn't mix too well with going into either the NSA or CIA. So I didn't do it.DL: Mmm-hmm.RK: Probably the best for me in a whole lot of ways.DL: And certainly history has benefited from your choice to become a lawyer. So my third question is, how much sleep do you get each night?RK: Believe it or not, I'm probably at the high end of the people you've talked to, seven to eight hours a night. I've never been someone who's functioned well with very little sleep. I remember my freshman year in college, some of my friends and I decided as an experiment that we were going to stay up all night and then write some essay that was required for some writing class we had to take, taking a lot of NoDoz, like only freshmen in college would be stupid enough to do something like that. But suffice it to say, I had to ask for an extension of the due date for the essay.When I'm on trial, I sleep obviously a lot less, but even then I'll go to bed at midnight and wake up at four or five in the morning. I still need to sleep every night.DL: I'm glad to hear that. I always love talking to successful people who [get decent sleep]. And who are also working parents—you have a son. I think it's great when people can… Look, I know work-life balance may be sort of an illusion or maybe a little much to ask, but I'm glad to hear that you can get a decent amount of sleep.RK: I've had migraines ever since I was 12. I suffer from migraines, and if you sleep too little, it will bring on migraines. I remember once, when I was working for Chief Judge Kaye, I hadn't slept enough or I don't know what had happened, but she came into my office and I was curled up under my desk in the fetal position because I had a migraine. And I'll never forget, she thought I would die. She's like, “What is going on?” So since I suffer from something like that, I'm very careful about doing things that won't bring on a migraine, and lack of sleep—or even too much sleep, both sides—can cause migraines.DL: My final question: any words of wisdom for listeners who look at your life and career and say, I want to be Robbie Kaplan?RK: I'm not sure anyone should say that because we all have our own lives, and you shouldn't want my life any more than anyone should want anyone else's.But I would say one, stick to your guts. The single greatest lesson I've learned as a lawyer is to trust your own guts because they often tell you the right thing. There's a lot of distractions that you may listen to or follow instead of following your own inner voice, and that's really important, to hear your own inner voice.And two, and I alluded to this earlier, your ability to function as a lawyer is based on your integrity, and you should never, ever, no matter what the fee, what the pressure, what the circumstance—and again, we're seeing this today, unfortunately—never do anything for a client that in any way compromises your integrity. I learned that at Paul, Weiss. I learned it from my mentor at Paul, Weiss, Marty London, and a bunch of others. And it's the single most important thing you need to know as a lawyer.DL: Well said. Thank you so much, Robbie, for joining me. I am so grateful for your time and your insight, and I know my listeners will appreciate it as well.RK: It's a pleasure.DL: Thanks again to Robbie for joining me. She's had such a remarkable life and legal career, and it was wonderful to hear about her landmark wins and what she's working on today. If you haven't already read it, I highly recommend her memoir, Then Comes Marriage.As always, thanks to Tommy Harron, my sound engineer here at Original Jurisdiction, and thanks to you, my listeners and readers, for tuning in. If you'd like to connect with me, you can email me at davidlat@substack.com, and you can find me on Twitter, Facebook, and LinkedIn, at davidlat, and on Instagram at davidbenjaminlat.If you enjoyed today's episode, please rate, review, and subscribe to Original Jurisdiction. Since this podcast is new, please help spread the word by telling your friends. And if you don't already, please subscribe to the Original Jurisdiction newsletter, over at davidlat.substack.com. This podcast is free, as is most of the newsletter content, but it is made possible by paid subscriptions to the newsletter.The next episode of the Original Jurisdiction podcast will appear two weeks from now, on Wednesday, November 16. Until then, may your thinking be original and your jurisdiction free of defects.Thanks for reading Original Jurisdiction, and thanks to my paid subscribers for making this publication possible. Subscribers get (1) access to Judicial Notice, my time-saving weekly roundup of the most notable news in the legal world; (2) additional stories reserved for paid subscribers; and (3) the ability to comment on posts. You can email me at davidlat@substack.com with questions or comments, and you can share this post or subscribe using the buttons below. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit davidlat.substack.com/subscribe

Hour 1 -- pervasive wildfire smoke infiltrates Puget Sound this morning, a random and unprovoked shooting at an Olympia grocery store parking lot kills one man as his brother is shopping inside, Tik Tok video about cooking chicken in Nyquill cough syrup prompts a terse warning from the FDA to avoid potential 'Darwin Awards', candid talk from the new King Co. Sheriff on defund police politics, Carlson says the Sheriff misses the mark about several suburban King County state lawmakers, how the Sheriff's comments relate to the importance of the Nov. election for King County Prosecutor, KVI's Lars Larson gives "the good, the bad and the ugly" from his first day at "Feet To The Fire" political event in Washington DC. Hour 2 -- "Smoke On The Water" musical history to go with this morning's Puget Sound wildfire smoke, with 50-days to the November election some Republican candidate polling data shows several close races in the US Senate, Tiffany Smiley has raised her polling (with WA voters) 11 points in 60 days, the irony that anti-police "ACAB" activists are now fawning over TX sheriff vowing to investigate FL's Ron DeSantis, the two faces of election denier Stacy Abrams, evaluating her 2022 denials about how she actually denied the 2018 GA governor's election results, a 1985 pop song has earned its singer/writer over $2 million in streaming royalties so far this summer. Hour 3 -- major fentanyl-related drug bust in Everett underscores why Nov. election is so critical to bringing back a "felony drug possession" law in WA, dispute at the front door of Seattle's "Harborzoo" hospital turns into gunfire with one person wounded, Olympia family members are grieving for their brother who was shot and killed randomly while waiting in a parked car at a grocery store, snark: when did Gov. Jay Inslee get appointed as UN Secretary General?, Seattle City Hall packed with CID residents and biz owners speaking out about planned SoDo homeless facility wanted by King Co. and KCRHA, GUEST: WSRP chair, Caleb Heilmich, talks about the pushback on proposed SoDo homeless facility, Heimlich says he's seen no Democratic Party elected officials supporting the CID residents, Carlson says it shows Democrats are taking Asian-American voters for granted, an 18 yr old North Dakota Donald Trump supporter is allegedly hit and killed in an alley by a driver after an admitted "political confrontation", the alleged murder circumstances appear to be a reversal of the politically motivated murder of Heather Heyer killed in a Charlottesville VA car ramming.

Both Daryle and Beth were there when Heather Heyer was killed and the nation took notice of white supremacy marching with torches. Our IDAVOX podcasters remember preparing for the worst and seeing it. Daryle was thrust into a spotlight as the focus of a documentary "Alt-Right Age of Rage" wich showed the lead up and the violence that day. Plus! Brian and Christian are in the mix to talk about the FBI raid at Mar A Lago and the attack on authpr Salman Rushdie.  Do you want to be a part of Revolution Radio? Help us make new, independent media by joining our editorial board! go to https://njrevolutionradio.com/join-the-editorial-board/ and sign up today! Make a contribution: njrevolutionradio.com/donate Website: njrevolutionradio.com Facebook: www.facebook.com/RevRadNat/ Twitter: twitter.com/NJRevRad Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/RevRadNat

So, how should America deal with media that purports to be news but, in fact, is offering a healthy serving of spin, misdirection, and outright lies? Jessica Valenti Host of the "Abortion, Every Day" reports on Nebraska getting away with charging a teenager for an illegal abortion. Radioactive Waste Specialist from Beyond Nuclear, Kevin Kamps why the Ukraine nuclear plant under fire show off the dangers of Nuclear Power. Radio Host, Dean Obeidallah reflects on the 5th anniversary of Heather Heyer's murder by neo-nazis in Charlottesville. Plus Geeky Science! Do spiders dream? What do they dream about? See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This week, a conversation with Susan Bro, the mother of Heather Heyer, who was killed five years ago at the “Unite the Right” rally in Charlottesville, Virginia.

In this episode I'll be talking with bestselling author Todd Brewster who together with co-writer Marc Lamont Hill have written Seen and Unseen – Technology, Social Media and the Fight for Racial Justice.  This powerful book is a riveting exploration of the ways in which visual media has shaped the nations narrative on race and has fundamentally altered the centuries long battle for racial justice.  We'll open our conversation as Todd outlines his career as a journalist for Time/Life Magazine, a senior producer for ABC News and his fellowship at Yale Law school. He'll then explain the events that brought him and Marc together to collaborate on their book.  Next, we'll discuss the roll technologies, such as still photography and moving pictures have played in shaping our views and opinions, and why he believes the ubiquity of cell phone cameras has now democratized our ability to document history and drive social change. Later, we'll dig into four recent high-profile events ranging from the murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis to the Unite the Right Rally in Charlottesville, South Carolina that have changed the way we understand race relations in America.  And we'll end our conversation by unpacking the limitations technology and social media have in sorting and prioritizing stories of significant social value from those that don't. The Show NotesSeen and Unseenhttps://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Seen-and-UnseenTodd Brewsterhttps://www.toddbrewster.com/Marc Lamont Hillhttps://www.marclamonthill.com/Grit Nation  Webpagehttps://www.gritnationpodcast.comWin Grit Nation Merchhttps://mailchi.mp/c28da31260b8/grit-nation-podcast-sign-up-pageEmail comments or suggestions to:joe@gritnationpodcast.comGrit Nation is a proud member of the Labor Radio / Podcast Networkhttps://www.laborradionetwork.org/  NW Carpenters Union United Brotherhood of Carpenters, Regional Council in the Pacific NW 6 states + 29k members strong!!Union Home Plus Union Home Plus helps union members save money when they buy, sell, or finance their home. The Martinez Tool Company Martinez Tools, built tough and built to last a lifetime.Image Pointe Printing Union Printers based in Waterloo IowaDiamondback Toolbelts Manufactures of premium quality toolbelts and accessories

For those who may be tempted to turn their erudite noses up at a bunch of working-class folks making a stand for their natural rights to make medical decisions for themselves, here's a quick dose of reality. Heather Heyer lays out how the elitists may be missing the reason that people are proud to be Canadian again. The pressure campaign on Spotify to remove Joe Rogan...

For those who may be tempted to turn their erudite noses up at a bunch of working-class folks making a stand for their natural rights to make medical decisions for themselves, here's a quick dose of reality. Heather Heyer lays out how the elitists may be missing the reason that people are proud to be Canadian again. The pressure campaign on Spotify to remove Joe Rogan...

Eric Peters from Eric Peters Autos joins me to offer rational observations on our live action episode of the Twilight Zone. Among the surreal suggestions about to be foisted upon us, the U.S. Transportation Secretary is floating the idea of federalizing speeding offenses. Sharon Wright Weeks returns to my show to follow up on her efforts to persuade the Utah legislature that it's time to put away the death penalty for good. Her story is compelling and she's someone who definitely has skin in the game. I know we're supposed to regard mandatory national service as a privilege and the price to pay for living in a "free country", right? Read that sentence again. James Bovard asks will politicians revive American slavery? The courage of a relatively small number of truckers is infecting many thousands of people around them. Ron Paul says what many are thinking: We're all Canadian truckers now! For those who may be tempted to turn their erudite noses up at a bunch of working class folks making a stand for their natural rights to make medical decisions for themselves, here's a quick dose of reality. Heather Heyer lays out how the elitists may be missing the reason that people are proud to be Canadian again. Here's an interesting concept: Is love a skill that can be taught? Paul Rosenberg's essay on teaching children how to love is worth a read. It's useful advice for all of us. You've likely heard the news that Modern's vaccine has been approved by the FDA. Jordan Schachtel wonders why it's still not available to Americans and why it's not scrutinized for omicron. Is there a shell game afoot? www.thebryanhydeshow.com --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/loving-liberty/support

I know we're supposed to regard mandatory national service as a privilege and the price to pay for living in a "free country", right? Read that sentence again. James Bovard asks will politicians revive American slavery? The courage of a relatively small number of truckers is infecting many thousands of people around them. Ron Paul says what many are thinking: We're all Canadian truckers now! For those who may be tempted to turn their erudite noses up at a bunch of working class folks making a stand for their natural rights to make medical decisions for themselves, here's a quick dose of reality. Heather Heyer lays out how the elitists may be missing the reason that people are proud to be Canadian again. Here's an interesting concept: Is love a skill that can be taught? Paul Rosenberg's essay on teaching children how to love is worth a read. It's useful advice for all of us. You've likely heard the news that Modern's vaccine has been approved by the FDA. Jordan Schachtel wonders why it's still not available to Americans and why it's not scrutinized for omicron. Is there a shell game afoot? These are my sponsors:  Life Saving Food (get a 20% discount, free shipping and NO sales tax) The Heather Turner Team at Patriot Home Mortgage HSL Ammo Sewing & Quilting Center Monticello College 

Project Censored is an amazing venture that collects all of the most important stories from the last year that the corporate media chose not to tell us about. Lee Camp reports some of the highlights from this year, with stories about rising prescription drug prices killing the elderly, the strike wave that has shocked big business, the plight of the journalists who are exposing our ruling class, and more. Then Camp reports on the CIA's admission that they have no proof for their Havana Syndrome conspiracy theory, and the unsurprising impacts of a Universal Basic Income pilot program in upstate New York. Jaffer Khan exposes how the US has been training a militarized Ukrainian Nazi group, the Azov Battalion, since 2015. Members of the Azov Battalion have also been training white supremacist groups here in the US, including members of the Unite the Right coalition responsible for killing counter-protester Heather Heyer during one of their hate-rallies in Virginia. Finally, Anders Lee reports on how Maine's governor recently vetoed a bill that would've protected agricultural workers from exploitative employers.

Rick Mountcastle is an Assistant Attorney General for the Commonwealth of Virginia and a Retired Federal Prosecutor.   Operating from a small, satellite U.S. Attorney's Office in Abingdon, Virginia, Rick led the investigation and prosecution of Purdue Pharma, as well as its CEO, General Counsel, and Chief Medical Officer, in an unprecedented case, that, at the inception of the opioid crisis, held an opioid manufacturer and its top executives criminally and civilly responsible for falsely marketing OxyContin. (This case was at the center of Beth Macy's best-selling book, "Dopesick," and the Hulu television series of the same name that first premiered in October 2021.)   After moving to the US Attorney's office headquarters in Roanoke, Virginia, Rick led the investigation and prosecution of Abbott Laboratories for its false marketing of the epilepsy drug, Depakote, resulting in criminal and civil penalties totaling $1.5 Billion (at the time the largest pharmaceutical settlement involving a single drug in U.S. history).   As acting/interim U.S. Attorney from January 2017 through April 2018, Rick led the federal response to the violence at the Charlottesville Unite-the-Right rally on August 12, 2017, personally directing the opening of the federal civil rights investigation of Heather Heyer's killer and other violent extremists, ensuring that the federal case was staffed by the office's best attorneys, coordinating with the local prosecutor's office, and coordinating with the Department of Justice's Civil Rights Division and the Federal Bureau of Investigation. He also initiated the federal-state task force to address gang violence in Danville, Virginia, resulting in the return of federal indictments against members of two violent gangs.   Now with the Virginia Attorney General's Office, Rick currently works to address the opioid crisis by conducting parallel criminal-civil investigations of health care providers who prescribe controlled substances without legitimate medical purpose.   In our conversation, Rick shares insight from the Perdue Pharma case and speaks to the larger issue of corruption and how that led to America's addiction epidemic. We also discuss the negative impact of stigma toward those who struggle with addiction as well as the importance of prevention and education. Resources mentioned in this episode: BOOK: Empire of Pain by Patrick Radden Keefe SAMHSA Helpline: 1-800-662-HELP (4357)      

Let all persons having any manner of business before this venerable podcast gather ye forth and giveth your attention!  Closing in on the end of 2021 and their hundredth episode, Daniel and Jack talk about the Sines vs. Kessler trial (the civil trial of the Unite the Right organisers etc), the way in which the far-right (including the defendants) have conceptualised it, the long-awaited aftermath in the wake of the verdict (which dropped just before Thanksgiving), and the reactions and attitudes to the whole thing among the far-right, including lots of inexplicably buoyant Cantwell lunacy. * Content Warnings. Podcast Notes: Please consider donating to help us make the show and stay independent.  Patrons get exclusive access to one full extra episode a month. Daniel's Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/danielharper Jack's Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/user?u=4196618 IDSG Twitter: https://twitter.com/idsgpod Daniel's Twitter: @danieleharper Jack's Twitter: @_Jack_Graham_ IDSG on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/i-dont-speak-german/id1449848509?ls=1 * Show Notes: Cold Open -- Lose to the Crying Nazi Sines v. Kessler docket Unicorn Riot, Unite The Right On Trial in Charlottesville Former Identity Evropa Organizer Tells Secrets In Trial Deposition Bottom of the Barrel: Charlottesville Trial Defense Attorneys Spread Antisemitism Joshua Smith, one of the attorneys, is representing Matthew Heimbach, Matthew Parrott, and the Traditionalist Worker Party, a neo-nazi group that helped put on Unite the Right in 2017. Calling in remotely to cross-examine a witness on November 11, Smith went on a meandering digression about so-called ‘ethnostates'. He claimed that expert witness and sociologist, Peter Simi, was ‘anti-white' because he wouldn't address Smith's view that China and Singapore are ‘ethnostates', and falsely said that white people are responsible for most advances in civilization and technology. When trying to confuse jurors about sociological concepts like in-groups and out-groups, Smith asked Simi if Hillary Clinton was white supremacist, and soon after he told Judge Norman Moon that cross-examinations can be “conversations” with witnesses, before sheepishly admitting his scattered tangents were “trying to keep it lively for everybody.” Another attorney in the Charlottesville lawsuit trial, Cincinnati-based, James E. Kolenich, is an antisemitic far-right Catholic. Kolenich told the Cincinnati Enquirer in 2018 that his motives in this case were simple: “My willingness to get involved is to oppose Jewish influence in society.” He questioned the accuracy of long-accepted scholarship about the death toll of the Holocaust: “You can't call the Jew Holocaust into question, right? […] Christians really shouldn't fall for that. The Holocaust is the execution, the crucifixion of Christ. The most important event in human history is His Resurrection, not, this Jewish Holocaust even if it did happen.” Kolenich is part of a Catholic splinter tendency that rejects 20th century reforms barring antisemitic theology, telling the Cincannati Enquirer, “The last such council [to modify the Catholic faith] was Vatican II or as we call it, Vatican Jew.” He believes all popes since Vatican II are illegitimate “anti-popes.” Bryan J. Jones, LLC From Unicorn Riot Day 16 Rush Transcript Spencer: I want to refer you now to the “rant from hell”…it was characterized by Ms. Dunn as a speech… do you remember the context of that rant?… tell us a little about the context… Kessler: the only thing I recall before that… Spencer: where was it, who was there Kessler: Somewhere in the countryside… in an afterparty, at a house, we went in a room to discuss, people were panicking after the car attack Spencer: how many people were there? Kessler: 10 or less Spencer: would you characterize that as a speech…? Kessler: I think ‘rant' is applicable Spencer: it was a private conversation is a private room… how did that outburst reach the light of day? Kessler: someone recorded it and released it to Milo Yiannopoulos Spencer: did you record it? Kessler: no Spencer: who recorded it…does Dave Reilly ring a bell? Kessler: yeah, thats the guy Spencer: is Milo…is he a fan of Richard Spencer…? Kessler: it was meant to embarrass you, I think… Spencer: when that was released… in the fall of 2019…does that sound right? Kessler: i don't recall Spencer: in the tweet where you say “Richard Spencer is a sociopathic narcissist”… when did you determine I was a sociopathic narcissist? Kessler: …I remember the first time I met you, you just made my skin crawl… you were slimy, you seemed inhuman, like a robot or a serial killer… Jonathan M. Katz, Auf weidersehen, alt-right C-ville Writers, Payback Time Neil Kumar at VDARE, Sines V. Kessler: The First Amendment No Longer Applies to Whites Macy Moors CBS19. Heather Heyer's Mom Reacts to Partial Verdict Idavox, Charlottesville After Sines v. Kessler: Victory Means KEEP THE PRESSURE ON   Molly's Trial Coverage Day One Jury Selection Day Two Jury Selection Day Three Jury Selection Day Four Opening Arguments Day Five Plaintiff's first two witnesses Emily Gorcenski and Molly Conger. White Supremacists Have Returned to Charlottesville in Another Attempt to ‘Unite the Right' Christopher Cantwell opening statement Molly Day Six Trial Coverage Devin cross-examination Molly Day Seven Trial Coverage Molly Day Eight Trial Coverage Heimbach, Lipstadt, Kline video deposition Molly Day Nine Trial Coverage Kline video deposition continued, Spencer testifies, cross by Cantwell. Molly Day Ten Trial Coverage Cantwell cross of Spencer continued, Ike Baker deposition from LoS, Michael Hill of LoS, Thomas Baker (plaintiff) testimony Molly Day Eleven Trial Coverage Dillon Hopper deposition, Michael Tubbs, Plaintiff Marissa Blair, Nazi cheering session, Cantwell cross of Blair, More Tubbs, Deposition testimony of Thomas Rousseau, deposition testimony from Vasillos Pistolis. Molly Day Twelve Trial Coverage Plaintiff Chelsea Alvarado, Matt Parrot, Cantwell and Parrot teaching Nazi humor to the jury, Parrot rebuttal by defense attorneys. Molly Day Thirteen Trial Coverage Plaintiff Marcus Martin, Plaintiff Seth Wispelwey, defendant Nathan Damigo, Michael Chesny deposition. Molly Day Fourteen Trial Coverage Molly Day Fifteen Trial Coverage Molly Day Sixteen Trial Coverage Possible broken thread, coverage begins here. Schoep rebuttal continued, Kessler testimony, Spencer cross of Kessler, Cantwell cross of Kessler. Cantwell called. Spencer cross of Cantwell. Molly Day Seventeen Trial Coverage Cantwell cross continued, Cantwell crosses himself, Daley video deposition, Brad Griffen video deposition, Cantwell Conspiracy Theories, Plaintiffs rest, Rule 50s proposed, Rule 50s denied, Spencer defense, Bloch impeachment of Spencer, Campbell for Fields rests, Kolenich on behalf of Kessler, Damigo, IE, rests, Cantwell defense, Bloch cross of Cantwell (again), flurry of pre-5pm activity. Molly Day Eighteen Trial Coverage. Molly Day Nineteen Trial Coverage Closing arguments Molly Day Twenty Trial Coverage Basically nothing, jury deliberations. Molly Day Twenty-One Trial Coverage More jury deliberations. Molly Day Twenty-Two Trial Coverage Verdict    

Jack Greer has been writing for all his adult life. Much of Greer's nonfiction writing has focused on the water, especially on the Chesapeake Bay. He wrote about and got engaged in marine affairs for the University of Maryland Sea Grant College for more than thirty years. His first short story collection is Abraham's Bay & Other Stories (Dryad Press, 2009). The Montserrat Review said of the collection that "[Greer] is a wonderful storyteller and a poetic, powerful writer." Sailing magazine said, "[The stories are] haunting as we sail into cold fronts, storms, and hearts of darkness. Greer... attempts to convey what that veteran sea captain and writer Joseph Conrad says, 'Above all I want to make you see.'" The magazine Cruising World wrote: "A good book.... Grab a hot toddy and prepare for the ride."Greer's poetry has appeared in small magazines, including the online Beltway Journal, where he most recently contributed a poem to a collection honoring Langston Hughes, and our journal Artemis, which published his poem, "Flowers for Heather Heyer." His work has won acclaim for his writing and citations from the governor of Maryland & University of Maryland for his environmental work around the Chesapeake Bay. For more information;www.jackgreer.net

On August 12th 2017, during two days of protests and counterprotests surrounding the white supremacist “Unite the Right” rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, a man named James Alex Fields Jr. drove his car into a group of counterprotesters, severely injuring several of them and killing a 32-year-old woman named Heather Heyer. Fields was eventually convicted and sentenced to life in prison, plus 419 years. In public statements about the violence, then-President Donald Trump kicked off a political firestorm when he failed to immediately denounce the white nationalists, saying there were “...very fine people on both sides.” In the conclusion of the civil trial that arose in the aftermath of that bloody weekend, a jury this week ruled that the white nationalist organizers of the "Unite the Right" rally in Charlottesville must pay more than $26 million in damages. In this episode of Passing Judgment, Jessica and Joe discuss the civil trial and how the outcome may impact future activities by white supremacist organizations. This podcast is powered by Pinecast.

A jury has awarded more than $26 million in damages after finding White nationalists who organized and participated in the violent rally in Charlottesville, Virginia back in 2017 liable on a state conspiracy claim and other claims. Susan Bro's daughter, Heather Heyer, was killed that day when a man sped his car through a crowd of counterprotesters. She tells AC360 the verdict “speaks volumes to trying to set things straight.”  Plus, the jury began deliberations in the trial of the three men accused of killing Ahmaud Arbery. Sara Azari is a criminal defense attorney. She joins AC360 to discuss the trial. To learn more about how CNN protects listener privacy, visit cnn.com/privacy

Today on Sojourner Truth: In a message to white supremacist organizations and leaders of the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, a jury in Charlottesville awarded more than $26 million in damages after finding the white nationalists who organized and participated in the violent rally liable on a state conspiracy claim and other claims. Our guest is Susan Bro, a resident of Virginia, who is the mother of Heather Heyer, the young woman who was killed on August 12, 2017, when a car plowed into a crowd of counter demonstrators who were protesting the Unite the Right rally. Millions of people across the United States are gearing up for an extended holiday weekend. Thanksgiving has been an official holiday in the United States since 1863. Most use the occasion to gather with friends and family. Others volunteer to serve meals to unhoused people. But to Indigenous peoples, it is a day of mourning. Our guest is Shannon Rivers, who is a Native American rights campaigner. We also speak about Christian nationalism with Colleen Thomas, a Washington, D.C. native and the co-convener of the Faith Working Group of the Los Angeles Poor People's Campaign.

Today on Sojourner Truth: In a message to white supremacist organizations and leaders of the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, a jury in Charlottesville awarded more than $26 million in damages after finding the white nationalists who organized and participated in the violent rally liable on a state conspiracy claim and other claims. Our guest is Susan Bro, a resident of Virginia, who is the mother of Heather Heyer, the young woman who was killed on August 12, 2017, when a car plowed into a crowd of counter demonstrators who were protesting the Unite the Right rally. Millions of people across the United States are gearing up for an extended holiday weekend. Thanksgiving has been an official holiday in the United States since 1863. Most use the occasion to gather with friends and family. Others volunteer to serve meals to unhoused people. But to Indigenous peoples, it is a day of mourning. Our guest is Shannon Rivers, who is a Native American rights campaigner. We also speak about Christian nationalism with Colleen Thomas, a Washington, D.C. native and the co-convener of the Faith Working Group of the Los Angeles Poor People's Campaign.

Today on Sojourner Truth: In a message to white supremacist organizations and leaders of the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, a jury in Charlottesville awarded more than $26 million in damages after finding the white nationalists who organized and participated in the violent rally liable on a state conspiracy claim and other claims. Our guest is Susan Bro, a resident of Virginia, who is the mother of Heather Heyer, the young woman who was killed on August 12, 2017, when a car plowed into a crowd of counter demonstrators who were protesting the Unite the Right rally. Millions of people across the United States are gearing up for an extended holiday weekend. Thanksgiving has been an official holiday in the United States since 1863. Most use the occasion to gather with friends and family. Others volunteer to serve meals to unhoused people. But to Indigenous peoples, it is a day of mourning. Our guest is Shannon Rivers, who is a Native American rights campaigner. We also speak about Christian nationalism with Colleen Thomas, a Washington, D.C. native and the co-convener of the Faith Working Group of the Los Angeles Poor People's Campaign.

Today on Sojourner Truth: In a message to white supremacist organizations and leaders of the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, a jury in Charlottesville awarded more than $26 million in damages after finding the white nationalists who organized and participated in the violent rally liable on a state conspiracy claim and other claims. Our guest is Susan Bro, a resident of Virginia, who is the mother of Heather Heyer, the young woman who was killed on August 12, 2017, when a car plowed into a crowd of counter demonstrators who were protesting the Unite the Right rally. Millions of people across the United States are gearing up for an extended holiday weekend. Thanksgiving has been an official holiday in the United States since 1863. Most use the occasion to gather with friends and family. Others volunteer to serve meals to unhoused people. But to Indigenous peoples, it is a day of mourning. Our guest is Shannon Rivers, who is a Native American rights campaigner. We also speak about Christian nationalism with Colleen Thomas, a Washington, D.C. native and the co-convener of the Faith Working Group of the Los Angeles Poor People's Campaign.

Today on Sojourner Truth: In a message to white supremacist organizations and leaders of the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, a jury in Charlottesville awarded more than $26 million in damages after finding the white nationalists who organized and participated in the violent rally liable on a state conspiracy claim and other claims. Our guest is Susan Bro, a resident of Virginia, who is the mother of Heather Heyer, the young woman who was killed on August 12, 2017, when a car plowed into a crowd of counter demonstrators who were protesting the Unite the Right rally. Millions of people across the United States are gearing up for an extended holiday weekend. Thanksgiving has been an official holiday in the United States since 1863. Most use the occasion to gather with friends and family. Others volunteer to serve meals to unhoused people. But to Indigenous peoples, it is a day of mourning. Our guest is Shannon Rivers, who is a Native American rights campaigner. We also speak about Christian nationalism with Colleen Thomas, a Washington, D.C. native and the co-convener of the Faith Working Group of the Los Angeles Poor People's Campaign.

Today on Sojourner Truth: In a message to white supremacist organizations and leaders of the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, a jury in Charlottesville awarded more than $26 million in damages after finding the white nationalists who organized and participated in the violent rally liable on a state conspiracy claim and other claims. Our guest is Susan Bro, a resident of Virginia, who is the mother of Heather Heyer, the young woman who was killed on August 12, 2017, when a car plowed into a crowd of counter demonstrators who were protesting the Unite the Right rally. Millions of people across the United States are gearing up for an extended holiday weekend. Thanksgiving has been an official holiday in the United States since 1863. Most use the occasion to gather with friends and family. Others volunteer to serve meals to unhoused people. But to Indigenous peoples, it is a day of mourning. Our guest is Shannon Rivers, who is a Native American rights campaigner. We also speak about Christian nationalism with Colleen Thomas, a Washington, D.C. native and the co-convener of the Faith Working Group of the Los Angeles Poor People's Campaign.

Today on Sojourner Truth: In a message to white supremacist organizations and leaders of the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, a jury in Charlottesville awarded more than $26 million in damages after finding the white nationalists who organized and participated in the violent rally liable on a state conspiracy claim and other claims. Our guest is Susan Bro, a resident of Virginia, who is the mother of Heather Heyer, the young woman who was killed on August 12, 2017, when a car plowed into a crowd of counter demonstrators who were protesting the Unite the Right rally. Millions of people across the United States are gearing up for an extended holiday weekend. Thanksgiving has been an official holiday in the United States since 1863. Most use the occasion to gather with friends and family. Others volunteer to serve meals to unhoused people. But to Indigenous peoples, it is a day of mourning. Our guest is Shannon Rivers, who is a Native American rights campaigner. We also speak about Christian nationalism with Colleen Thomas, a Washington, D.C. native and the co-convener of the Faith Working Group of the Los Angeles Poor People's Campaign.

Today on Sojourner Truth: In a message to white supremacist organizations and leaders of the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, a jury in Charlottesville awarded more than $26 million in damages after finding the white nationalists who organized and participated in the violent rally liable on a state conspiracy claim and other claims. Our guest is Susan Bro, a resident of Virginia, who is the mother of Heather Heyer, the young woman who was killed on August 12, 2017, when a car plowed into a crowd of counter demonstrators who were protesting the Unite the Right rally. Millions of people across the United States are gearing up for an extended holiday weekend. Thanksgiving has been an official holiday in the United States since 1863. Most use the occasion to gather with friends and family. Others volunteer to serve meals to unhoused people. But to Indigenous peoples, it is a day of mourning. Our guest is Shannon Rivers, who is a Native American rights campaigner. We also speak about Christian nationalism with Colleen Thomas, a Washington, D.C. native and the co-convener of the Faith Working Group of the Los Angeles Poor People's Campaign.

Four years ago hundreds of torch-bearing far-right demonstrators marched through the University of Virginia campus. The Unite the Right rally/antisemitic hatefest in Charlottesville, Virginia featured chants of “Jews will not replace us” and Nazi flags. Self-identified white supremacist James Fields perpetrated the car ramming attack that killed Heather Heyer and injured countless others. While Fields was held accountable for his actions in court, what about those who meticulously organized the rally? Who will hold them accountable? Our guest for this week, Executive Director of Integrity First for America (IFA) Amy Spitalnick, previews the upcoming trial of Sines v. Kessler—IFA's lawsuit against the rally's organizers—and shares how she is working to push far-right extremists back into the shadows where they belong.  ___ Episode Lineup: (0:40) Amy Spitalnick (19:51) Manya Brachear Pashman and Melanie Maron Pell ___ Show notes: What All Jews Need to Know About the EU's New Strategy to Combat Antisemitism

Photojournalists on the Unite the Right Rally 3 Years on and more...   This is a special crossover episode of the Visu.News and Around the Lens podcasts. We're recording this on the third anniversary of the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville that ended in the death of Heather Heyer and severe injuries to dozens more.  I'm here with a handful of photojournalists who were there that day discussing what has and hasn't changed since then. Our conversation starts with the tiki torch march then on to the next day - the Unite the Right rally, August 12th. We then drift into chatting about how covering the far right has changed and discussed some of the new risks of working as a photojournalist covering protests.  I apologize that I did not have each person do a proper intro of themselves, so I will list who is on the call in the order in which they spoke. You can find their socials and websites in the show notes. Sandi Bachom is a freelance video journalist based in New York City with Getty and NowThisNews (Sandibachom.com). You can find her on Twitter and Instagram.  John Rudoff is a freelance photojournalist with SIPA-USA and based in Portland (Rudoffphoto.com) You can find him Twitter and Instagram.  Ford Fischer is an independent video journalist and co-founder of News2Share.com based in Washington DC. You can find him on Twitter and YouTube. Emily Molli is a video and still journalist and founder of SCNR.com follow her work on Twitter and Instagram  Michael Nigro is a freelance photojournalist and film director based in New York City. You can find him on Twitter and Instagram and his portfolio site here.  And I'm Zach D Roberts a freelance photojournalist co-founder of Visu.News and AroundTheLens.com.  You can find me on Twitter and Instagram.   

After an intro in which I describe my initial experiences in the Clubhouse app, some topics covered in this week's rambler include: Masculine and feminine ways of perceiving; how we break things into dichotomies; is intuition really feminine?; dichotomies are fun but the ground is One; writing--feeling past the dichotomies and into our shared humanity; how a shadow side of identity politics is a reflection of the Karpman drama triangle, yet the roles are being reversed; my 2020 St Patrick's Day dream about that drama triangle; the more evolved version of the triangle (co-creative triangle), a win-win for all; how being vulnerable is attractive; how our survival drives our lack of vulnerability; the beauty of humility, authenticity and vulnerability; drowning in media; and last, when does the darned Age of Aquarius begin? Has it begun already? Astrologer Steven Forrest's answer. Last, the picture is from the 100-year snowstorm we had in 2014 on Valentine's Day--about 75 centimeters (almost 2 and a half feet!) in 24 hours. Nuts! Links to media: Jay Shapiro, “Be Careful In The Dark” Bret Weinstein and Heather Heyer, 67th Livestream Dark Horse Podcast, What the W.H.O.? The Guardian, Clubhouse app: What is it and how do you get an invite to the audio app Elon Musk uses?

President Trump says he doesn’t know the far-right group, Proud Boys, a day after he told them to “stand back and stand by” and refusing to condemn white supremacy at the first 2020 Presidential debate. Susan Bro lost her daughter, Heather Heyer, three years ago when a self-professed neo-Nazi plowed through a crowd of counter-protesters in Charlottesville, Virginia at the “Unite the Right” rally. Trump said back then there were “very fine people on both sides.” She tells Anderson Cooper she gasped when she heard what the President said at the debate but wasn’t surprised by Trump’s comments. Plus, Susan Rice, a former Ambassador to the United Nations and President Obama's former National Security Adviser, joins AC360 to react to the debate and says, “we have a racist-in-chief in the White House.” Airdate: September 30, 2020 Guests: Susan Bro Susan RiceTo learn more about how CNN protects listener privacy, visit cnn.com/privacy

This week, Nikki and Kiersten discuss the death of Heather Heyer and the unsolved murders of David Lee Metzler and Heidi Lynn Childs Make sure to follow us on all social media! Facebook: @appalachiancrimetrailpodcast Twitter: @appcrimepod Instagram: @appalachian_crime_trail Email: appalachiancrimetrail@gmail.com

Independent investigative journalism, broadcasting, trouble-making and muckraking with Brad Friedman of BradBlog.com

No news is good news. 60% of wildlife has been wiped off the planet since 1970. Mexican police kill a man in the migrant caravan on the border with Guatemala. Ever since Trump openly declared himself a nationalist last week, there has been an escalation of far-right violence. We interview an anarchist who works at the Tree of Life synagogue where an anti-Semite massacred 11 people on Saturday, as well as two people in the Outlive Them network about the upcoming International Days of Action against Fascism and Anti-Semitism. We also draw connections between the election of Bolsonaro in Brazil and anarchist resistance to Trump and democracy itself in the United States. Send us news, events, or ideas on how our show can better serve anarchist activity in your town by emailing us at podcast@crimethinc.com. {October 31, 2018}   -------SHOW NOTES------   Table of Contents: Introduction {0:00} Headlines {1:12} Tree of Life massacre {5:10} Bolsonaro, democracy, elections {24:00} Resistance roundup {33:50} Repression roundup {37:50} Next Week's News {43:15} Download 29:30 minutes long version. The latest episode of Sub.Media's webseries Trouble deals with the J20 protests and ensuing legal battle. If anyone out there can help translate the subtitles to Brazilian Portuguese, we know that comrades there would appreciate it! E-mail us at podcast[at]crimethinc[dot]com. Upcoming events/demos/etc: November 2: A call for counter protests against Steve Bannon and David Frum in Toronto. Meet at 5pm outside Ray Thomson Hall located at 60 Simcoe St. November 6: an anti-ICE march in Portland, Oregon at 6pm. Meet at City Hall and check out @OccupyICEPDX on twitter for more information. November 8–11: International Days of Action against Fascism and Anti-Semitism, including this action in New York City on November 10. November 10: A call for counter demos against PEGIDA's anti-Muslim and anti-refugee demonstration, also in Toronto. Meet at 12pm in Mel Lastman Square. November 16–18: School of the Americas Watch is hosting a border encuentro directly on the US/Mexico border in Nogales, Arizona and Sonora. November 17: A Stand Against Proud Boys action in Philadelpha, to counter Proud Boys who are planning to attend a rally called We the People. Meet at Washington Square Park at 6th and Walnut Streets. Upcoming anarchist book fairs and gatherings: November 1–2, Anarchist Book Fair in Santiago, Chile November 10: Anarchist Book Fair Amsterdam November 17–18: The Seattle Anarchist Book Fair November 17–18: The Boston Anarchist Book Fair More about the unpermitted crowd that forced Trump's motorcade to turn around in Pittsburgh. The Claws of Empire, the Rise of Fascism: Brazilian Anarchist Statement on Bolsonaro Another anarchist perspective on the upcoming midterm elections. Mutual Aid Disaster Relief are still looking for accomplices in their autonomous relief work in North Carolina, as well as supplies. They need: people with any background relevant to repairing homes. food, water, cleaning & building supplies, baby supplies, etc. funds, to go toward these projects, keeping the lights on, keeping it all moving Gift cards and supplies can be mailed to: 102 N Cedar St. Lumberton, NC 28358 If you can come help, please get in touch by emailing WeKeepUsSafeVC@protonmail.com or mutualaiddisasterrelief@gmail.com Mutual Aid Disaster Relief is on tour until late November! This week's dates: October 31: Olympia, WA. 3:00 pm PDT @ Evergreen State College, 2700 Evergreen Parkway NW, Olympia, WA 98505 November 1: Seattle, WA. 7:00 pm PDT @ Pipsqueak Gallery, 173 16th Ave Seattle, WA 98122 November 6: Fort Collins, CO. 7:00 pm MST @ Poudre Valley Public Library, 201 Peterson St, Fort Collins, CO 80524 November 7: Fort Collins, CO. 4:00 pm MST @ Cafe Foco, 201 Peterson St, Fort Collins, CO 80524 A complete list of tour dates and locations can be found here. Duluth, Minnesota: Anti-fascist and anti-white supremacy People's General Assemblies will be taking place weekly, Tuesdays at 6 PM in People's Power Plaza Political Prisoner Malik Washington has announced a hunger strike, not only against his conditions, but also against police brutality on streets and inside prison walls, against prison slavery, and against patriarchy and imperialism. If you'd like to send him written messages of support, you can write him at: Keith H. Washington #1487958 McConnell Unit 3100 South Emily Drive Beeville, TX 78103 Write a letter to anarchist prisoner Eric King at: Eric King # 27090045 USP LEAVENWORTH U.S. PENITENTIARY P.O. BOX 1000 LEAVENWORTH, KS 66048 Rashid Johnson, a revolutionary prisoner who is a founding member, and Minister of Defense, of the Prison Chapter of the New Afrikan Black Panther Party, is asking for your help! As de facto retribution for his relentless activism and exposure of the prison system, Rashid is being held in awful repressive conditions. Especially importantly, he takes medication for his blood pressure and the prison is withholding his medicine. Supporters can call Warden Beth Cabell, any day other than Friday, at  (804) 834–2678. The focus should be on his medical emergency, as Rashid needs to have his blood pressure checked in order for any adjustments to be made to his medications. A trans woman of color and water protector was arrested on bogus charges in Louisiana on last week. She has since been released, but you can still donate to the ongoing fight at Gofundme.com/NoBBP. In the Philippines, Food Not Bombs volunteer Marco is still in prison awaiting trial on drug charges. His supporters vehemently maintain that he had drugs planted on him and that he is being framed. You can donate to his legal fund here. Friends of Tim Brown Jr are raising legal funds on his behalf for charges he incurred while in jail after being arrested in Charlottesville. The new charges are for allegedly beating up James Fields, the neo-Nazi who murdered Heather Heyer. If you have a few bucks, here's the link to his gofundme. Use this straightforward guide to writing prisoners from New York City Anarchist Black Cross to write a birthday message for Ed Poindexter, who celebrates a birthday next week: Ed Poindexter #27767 Nebraska State Penitentiary Post Office Box 2500 Lincoln, Nebraska 68542 {Birthday: November 1} Sales are OPEN for the 2019 Certain Days: Freedom for Political Prisoners calendar! The theme of next year's calendar is Health/Care, and it features art and writing from current and former political prisoners like David Gilbert, Mike and Chuck Africa, and Laura Whitehorn. If you buy 10 or more, be sure to use the discount code “BULK” to get 10 or more calendars for $10 each—you can then sell the calendars to fundraise for your own organizing.    

Independent investigative journalism, broadcasting, trouble-making and muckraking with Brad Friedman of BradBlog.com

Jason Wilson's coverage of last summer's "Unite the Right" rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, which culminated in the murder of Heather Heyer, helped frame the rising presence of "alt-right" and white supremacist actors on the American political stage. In this conversation, Wilson tells me about his youth in Australia, years studying media theory in grad school, and how he became alternately fascinated and horrified with America's radical right-wing. 

As we reconnect to plan a new year of resistance this January 20th, what lessons can we take from the inspiring but traumatic year that was 2017? In Episode 61 of the Ex-Worker, we interview three anarchists who reflect on their role on the front lines of struggles against the state and fascism over the past year. Hex, who survived a shooting attack by a fascist at a Seattle anti-fascist demonstration last January 20th, offers perspective on questions of justice, violence, patriarchy, and compassion, the critical importance of healing, and redefining resistance. An anarchist of color from Charlottesville discusses how the events there have impacted anti-fascist resistance and updates us on court cases, grand jury proceedings, and opportunities to show solidarity. And Miel, who was recently acquitted on all charges in the first trial of J20 defendants from the DC counter-inaugural protests, traces the significance of the J20 case, state strategies of repression, and lessons we can take with us as we move forward into a new year of struggle. The episode wraps up with updates from several other anarchist media projects about their plans for the new year, prisoner birthdays, and more. {January 20, 2018}   -------SHOW NOTES------     Table of Contents: Introduction {0:01} Getting Started: Why the Right Actually Can't Shoot Us {2:35} Interview with Hex, Survivor of Fascist Shooting in Seattle {9:35} Interview with Anarchist of Color from Charlottesville {52:30} Interview with Miel, Acquitted J20 Defendant {1:10:16} 2018 Previews from Other Anarchist Media Projects {1:35:04} Prisoner Updates and Birthdays](https://nycabc.wordpress.com/pppow-birthday-calendar/) {1:43:26} Conclusion {1:46:45} On January 20th, mark the one year anniversary of counter-inaugural and anti-Trump protests by connecting with others and laying plans for the next year of resistance! Check out this listing of events around the country. The Hotwire, our weekly anarchist newscast, will return in February, so stay tuned! For some background on our conversation with Hex, check out this radio interview in which he discusses his experience of the shooting, or skim the edited transcript of it here; also see CrimethInc's piece “What Counts as Violence: Why the Right Can Shoot Us Now”, and the article An Anarchist is Shot in Seattle from Fifth Estate magazine. Hex makes reference to No New Youth Jail campaign and “Block the Bunker”, two campaigns against the prison industrial complex led by youth of color in the Seattle, which contributed to his radicalization around issues of incarceration and restorative justice. Also be sure to check out the Greater Seattle IWW General Defense Committee, a local affiliate of the Industrial Workers of the World and their General Defense Committee. We're excited to be part of the Channel Zero Network, a collective platform for anarchist audio and radio projects. Some of our sibling projects from CZN we highlighted in our 2018 anarchist media discussion include Resonance Anarchist Audio Distro, The Final Straw Radio, It's Going Down, SubMedia, and SoleCast. Check 'em all out! In our discussion about the aftermath of the August 12th demonstrations with an anarchist of color from Charlottesville, we heard about several ways to show support for anarchists and anti-fascists there. Stay updated through Solidarity Cville, also on Twitter and Medium. You can also donate to the Charlottesville Resilience Fund. Since defeating the Unite the Right rally in August, radicals in Charlottesville have been on a roll: shutting down UVA Bicentennial celebration under the slogan “”200 years of white supremacy,“ with three people arrested; shutting down an October 10th Planning Commission meeting declaring ”No More Business as Usual"; and a whole week of resistance events. On February 2nd, there will be a court date for some of the comrades against whom fascist Jason Kessler is pressing charges for shutting down his attempt to have a press conference the day after Heather Heyer's murder; turn out to show support if you can, or stay posted for updates. Miel, recently acquitted J20 defendant, referred to Defend J20 Resistance and their ongoing fundraising campaign to support the remaining 180+ defendants facing charges for protesting Trump's inauguration. Many J20 events this year will be screening the new film by our friends at Global Uprisings, titled “Antifa.” Check it out! Warm greetings of solidarity to our friends at Black Mosquito, an anarchist distribution project in Germany, who were recently targeted in a probable fascist robbery and attack. Take a moment to write to anarchist prisoner Eric King, who's grieving the loss of his brother. Eric King # 27090045 FCI FLORENCE FEDERAL CORRECTIONAL INSTITUTION PO BOX 6000 FLORENCE, CO 81226 The New York State prison system has issued an absurd and harmful new set of restrictions on what prisoners can receive in packages from friends and family. Read info about it from NYC ABC (page 15), sign a petition to roll back the new regulations, send the scumbags in charge a postcard demanding that they stop this madness, etc. Jay Chase from the NATO 3 is currently in segregation and is in need of some books; please send a few if you can. Prisoners in Illinois can receive used books in the mail. Jay likes to read sci-fi, fantasy fiction and history; Jay also has an Amazon wish list here. Segregation is very tough on anyone as you are confined to your cell at least 23 hours a day. Please show Jay some solidarity and support at this tough time. Jared Chase M44710‬ ‪Dixon Correctional Center‬ ‪2600 North Brinton Avenue‬ ‪Dixon, IL 61021‬ There are a lot of prisoner birthdays this month! Take a moment to send a letter or card to: Jeremy Hammond #18729–424 FCI Milan Post Office Box 1000 Milan, Michigan 73189 {January 8th} Abdul Aziz (Warren Ballantine) #16–047 Central Arizona Florence Correctional Complex Post Office Box 6300 Florence, Arizona 85132 Please address envelope to Warren Ballantine, card/letter to Abdul (Aziz) {January 9th} Herman Bell #79-C–0262 Shawangunk Correctional Facility Post Office Box 700 Wallkill, New York 12589 {January 14th} Sundiata Acoli (Clark Squire) #39794–066 FCI Cumberland Post Office Box 1000 Cumberland, Maryland 21501 Please address envelope to Clark Squire, card/letter to Sundiata Acoli {January 14th} Joseph Bowen #AM 4272 SCI Coal Township 1 Kelley Drive Coal Township, Pennsylvania 17866–1020 Nickname: Joe-Joe {January 15th} Marius Mason #04672–061 FMC Carswell Post Office Box 27137 Fort Worth, Texas 76127 Please address envelope to Marie, card/letter to Marius {January 26th}    

In episode #56, we covered the repercussions of the violent showdown that took place between fascists and counter-demonstrators in Charlottesville, Virginia on August 12. The month since then has seen massive anti-fascist demonstrations around the US and a backlash in which liberal “centrists” have joined the far right in attempting to portray those who resist fascism as being no better than the fascists who murdered Heather Heyer in Charlottesville in the course attempting to bring about another Holocaust. In this episode, we back up a bit to offer some background on contemporary fascism and the struggle against it, refute hostile propaganda from the corporate media, and present some points of departure from which to strategize the future of the anti-fascist movement. Along the way, we hear from author Mark Bray, debunk myths about “free speech,” and break up with Noam Chomsky, who helped get some of us into this stuff but is really losing his grip in his old age. This episode includes complete audio versions of several important texts that have appeared on crimethinc.com recently, including “Not Your Grandfather's Antifascism,” “Why We Fought in Charlottesville,” and the interview “Squaring off against Fascism: Critical Reflections from the Front Lines.” {September 12, 2017}   -------SHOW NOTES------   Table of Contents: Introduction {0:01} Excerpts from Ex-Worker Episode 11 {2:03} It's Over, Noam {9:30} Essay: ‘Myths about Antifa' by Spencer Sunshine {15:47} Free Speech FAQ {17:49} Democracy Now Interview with Mark Bray {25:56} CrimethInc. Essay: Why We Fought in Charlottesville {36:52} CrimethInc. Essay: Squaring off against Fascism {46:29} CrimethInc. Essay: Not Your Grandfather's Antifascism {1:06:06} Conclusion {1:32:11} We included excerpts from our discussion of fascism and anti-fascism from Ex-Worker Episode 11; we'd recommend revisiting that episode for an analysis of contemporary fascism and the resistance anarchists have mounted to it, including the history of Anti-Racist Action. The episode also contains interviews with One People's Project and New York City Anarchist Black Cross. Spencer Sunshine's “Debunking the 3 Biggest Myths About Antifa” is an essay we quote at length in this episode to point out some of the ways that anti-fascist action in Charlottesville and around the country has helped shut down fascist organizing. We included an excerpt of our Free Speech FAQ from Ex-Worker Episode 12; check out this episode in full for a look into how anarchists fought against Franco in the Spanish Revolution and beyond, as well as interview with Occupied London about fascism and resistance in Greece, as well as some lively anti-fascist movie reviews. Mark Bray just published a new book, Antifa: The Anti-Fascist Handbook. In this episode, we excerpt from a great two-part interview he did with Democracy Now. Part 1 / Part 2 This episode includes complete audio versions of several important texts that have appeared on crimethinc.com recently, including “Not Your Grandfather's Antifascism,” “Why We Fought in Charlottesville,” and the interview “Squaring off against Fascism: Critical Reflections from the Front Lines.” Tune into The Hotwire, our new 20–30 minute weekly anarchist newscast. New episodes premier every Wednesday this fall.      

Tonight DJ Baagi returns to host a show on Beats of Resistance and Solidarity from the Asian and Pacific Islander communities worldwide. This episode features Omar Offendum, Shadia Mansour and more artists from Syria, Palestine and Afghanistan rapping about the political impact of war on their communities, and of gender oppression within their communities. And for the new fascist time we are living in, she'll be going back for more DrumNbass and Jungle beats from the UK-Based South Asian, anti-racist group Asian Dub Foundation. And special guest Sharif Zakout from the Arab Resource and Organizing Center joins us! Community Calendar Several SF Chinatown community organizations and activists are sponsoring “Light Up the Night From Charlottesville to Chinatown: No Hate,” a candlelight vigil and program in the memory of slain activist Heather Heyer.  The event will be held on Friday, Aug. 25 from 6:30 pm to 8:30 pm at the Chinese Culture Center, 750 Kearny St., San Francisco. This event occurs the night before the “Patriot's Prayer” and will send a message that Chinese Americans and Asian Americans reject the hatred and fear being sown by the white supremacists. The candlelight vigil in honor of Heather Heyer will begin at 8 pm on the pedestrian bridge between the Chinese Culture Center and Portsmouth Square Park. For more information, visit www.nomoreexclusion.org. Also on Friday, Brick and Mortar features The Kominas and SETI X starting at 8 p.m. The post APEX Express – Beats of Resistance and Solidarity appeared first on KPFA.

On Saturday, after a 20-year-old Nazi sympathizer named James Alex Fields Jr. drove his car into a crowd of counter-protesters at a white nationalist rally in Charlottesville, Va., killing 32-year-old Heather Heyer and injuring 19 others, President Donald Trump addressed the nation from his Bedminster, N.J. golf course. His statement that blame was shared by "many sides" was immediately called out for being insufficient by politicians of both parties, leading the President to call the KKK, neo-Nazis and white supremacists "repugnant" in a revised statement on the issue on Monday. But the following day, Trump appeared to double down on his original comments that there was blame on both sides. On this week's TrumpWatch, host Jesse Lent talks to Scott Marzano, a former U.S. Marine who served two tours of duty in Iraq and participated in the counter-protest in Charlottesville on Saturday. Scott was standing in the same crowd of counter-protesters as Heather Heyer when she was killed. Beyond sharing his first-hand account of the tragic event, the ex-Marine's offers his own impression of President Trump's response to the attack.

Jesse and Brittany discuss YouTube's censorship and punishment of content creators, listener voicemails and emails reacting to the events in Charlottesville, the alt-right, white supremacists, white nationalists, and Neo-Nazis who raised terror in Charlottesville, including discussion of the death of Heather Heyer, Donald Trump's reaction, and Donald Trump's problematic connections to the alt-right. Sound off... The post #329 – “YouTube Censorship, Listener Reactions to Charlottesville, and In-Depth Discussion of the Alt-Right and Charlottesville.” appeared first on I Doubt It Podcast.

On August 12th, 2017, a massive alt-right and neo-Nazi rally took place in Charlottesville, Virginia. While a large counter-demonstration successfully confronted the fascists, one drove a car into a crowd of protestors, killing at least one and injuring many more. In this special report from the Ex-Worker, we hear the story of the Charlottesville demonstrations from anarchists who put their bodies on the line to stop fascism. This episode includes context and background to understand how the organizing took place, narratives from the streets, and reflections on lessons learned and the state of our struggles moving forward. We also share essays analyzing what we need to do to fight fascism, how the right wing built their murderous momentum, and what their war on protest tells us about the threat to their agenda posed by our resistance. We dedicate this episode to the memory of Heather Heyer, who died at the hands of a fascist this weekend, and to the commitment we share to fighting by any means necessary to ensure that this never happens again. {August 14, 2017}     -------SHOW NOTES------     Table of Contents: Introduction {0:01} Background to the Charlottesville Demonstrations {2:02} Interview: An Anonymous Anarchist of Color on the Charlottesville Demonstrations {12:15} Essay: “Charlottesville and the Rise of Fascism in the USA: What We Need to Do” {36:47} Interview: Two Virginia Anarchists on the Charlottesville Demonstrations {47:37} Essay: “One Dead in Charlottesville: Why the Right Can Kill Us Now” {1:21:59} Essay: “From J20 to Charlottesville: Repressing Protest From Above and Below” {1:25:40} Conclusion {1:38:24} Check this ongoing list of solidarity actions around the world to find a way to get involved in remembering Charlottesville and resisting fascism. Here are links to some of the various solidarity and medical support funds our comrades have vouched for, if you want to make a donation: Dre Harris Medical Fund, Memorial fund by the Democratic Socialists of America, Heather Heyer's Family, #DefendCville Med Fund, VA Youth Rally Victims; Help Queers Defend Cville, SolidarityCville, Natalie Romero Medical Fund, Alexis and Noelle Morris Medical Fund, Black Lives Matter Charlottesville, Black Student Alliance at UVA, Tracye Redd, The Women's Initiative Cville, Allie's Fund We shared two essays originally published on the CrimethInc. blog: “Charlottesville and the Rise of Fascism in the USA: What We Need to Do” and “One Dead in Charlottesville: Why the Right Can Kill Us Now.” We also included a short excerpt from our discussion of resistance to white supremacy in Episode 40; we'd recommend revisiting that episode for background on the anti-police and anti-racist rebellions of 2014–2015. Now is an important time to show support for your local antifa group or project, and to show up when they call to confront white supremacists and fascists. The folks at Three Way Fight have assembled this vouched list of trustworthy antifa resources and groups. Beware, however, of signing up for just any antifa feed—many of them are fake accounts used to doxx genuinely antifascist newcomers to the movement. For a reportback on the July 8th anti-KKK demo in Charlottesville that preceded the August 12th rally, see this episode of The Final Straw. If you'd like to learn more about fascism and the history of anarchist opposition to it, check out the Ex-Worker's Episode 11 and Episode 12. Historian James Loewen has explored the true history of Confederate monuments, and the brutal histories they represent, in his books Lies My Teacher Told Me and Lies Across America. Here's more info about The Hotwire, our forthcoming weekly anarchist newscast.  

Independent investigative journalism, broadcasting, trouble-making and muckraking with Brad Friedman of BradBlog.com

anarchy (1)......... jesus Holding in the light the family of hero Heather Heyer as well as all of the brave people who went out in Charlottesville to oppose fascism knowing how dangerous those people are. Please donate to their medical funds, more info here: https://fundly.com/defendcville Anarchist media starter pack: It's Going Down, Submedia, Idavox "All social activism, all organizing, is science fiction." Spoke to Imaginactivism scholar Joan Haran about sci-fi, writers including Octavia Butler, Starhawk, Marge Piercy, and Ursula K LeGuin, Octavia's Brood, independent publishing & the power of crowdfunding, the G20 in Hamburg, authoritarian sci-fi, the power of stories, the enlightenment, utopias & dystopias, imagining new forms of governance & social technologies, indigenous & afro futurism, the Handmaid's Tale, the war on drugs, and media repression. Referenced: Ava Duvernay adapting Octavia Butler for the screen: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/ava-duvernay-octavia-butler-dawn_us_598b5f2ee4b0449ed5078015?section=us_arts It's Going Down article on the G20 in Hamburg: https://itsgoingdown.org/g20-battle-hamburg-full-account-analysis/ The Center for Applied Non Violent Action and Strategies (CANVAS): http://canvasopedia.org/ "But anarchism is not compelled to outline a complete organisation of a free society. To do so with any assumption of authority would be to place another barrier in the way of coming generations. The best thought of today may become the useless vagary of tomorrow, and to crystallise it into a creed is to make it unwieldy." - Lucy Parsons (from http://www.blackrosefed.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Black-Anarchism-A-Reader-4.pdf) The Rise of Antifa by Peter Beinart of the Atlantic: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/09/the-rise-of-the-violent-left/534192/ Also a rebuttal: http://idavox.com/index.php/2017/08/09/newly-re-vamped-atlantic-magazine-calls-for-the-violent-suppression-of-anti-fascist-activists-in-major-editorial/ And here's a reading list given to me by Joan: -Octavia's Brood – ed. Walidah Imarisha and Adrienne Maree Brown -The Fifth Sacred Thing – Starhawk -Donna Haraway – “A Manifesto for Cyborgs” (collected in Manifestly Haraway) -"Emergent Strategy" - Adrienne Maree Brown -"Half-life" - Shelley Jackson -The Highest Frontier. College out in space—Invaded by undocumented aliens. Tor/Macmillan, September, 2011. -Brain Plague. Intelligent microbes invade human brains, offering limitless powers--at a price. Tor Books, August, 2000; Science Fiction Book of the Month Club, Alternate Selection. -The Children Star. A planet with biochemistry so alien that only children can be genetically engineered to survive there. And what unique alien intelligence is watching in secret? Analog serial, April, 1998; Tor Books, September, 1998. -Daughter of Elysium. In the far future, biologists engineer humans to live for thousands of years, then face a revolt by the machines that made it possible. Avon, 1993; Easton Press signed first edition, 1993; Avon pbk, 1994. -The Wall around Eden. Quaker teen-agers face the environmental consequences of nuclear war. William Morrow, 1989; Avon pbk, 1990; Italian translation, Editrice Nord, 1991. -A Door into Ocean. Women biologists genetically engineer fantastic creatures on a planet covered entirely by ocean. Science Fiction Book of the Month Club Main Selection, 1986; Arbor House, 1986; Avon pbk, 1987; Italian translation, Editrice Nord, 1988. -Still Forms on Foxfield. Quakers colonize a planet with bizarre alien inhabitants. Del Rey Books, 1980. -Anything by Nnedi Okorafor (start with the Binti novellas)