Podcasts about Shoot me

Our third installment of Funny You Should Mention welcomes Sam Jay, former SNL writer, Tom Brady Roaster, host of HBO's Pause with Sam Jay, and stand-up comic behind such specials as Netflix's 3 In The Morning and HBO's Salute Me or Shoot Me. Sam and Mike talk cops, racism, white vs black people money management, and a joke she'll discuss but won't be telling again. Produced by Joel Patterson and Corey Wara Email us at thegist@mikepesca.com To advertise on the show, visit: https://advertisecast.com/TheGist Subscribe to The Gist: https://subscribe.mikepesca.com/ Subscribe to The Gist Youtube Page: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4_bh0wHgk2YfpKf4rg40_g Follow Mikes Substack at: Pesca Profundities | Mike Pesca | Substack  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Title by Anonymous Tom and Damien are two retired child star peas in an (air)pod. Their first day working at Apple goes awry when Margaret walks in. Will the lost left go right again? Song List: "The C in Customer Service", "Apple of My Eye", "Charge Your Laptop", "2 be a child star", "Episode 12, Season 3 (Shoot Me)", "You Can Count on Apple" Cast: Morgan Phillips, Tilly Legge, Cameron Taylor and Daniel Kim on keys Teched by Imogen Whittaker Edited by Morgan Phillips

Remember Jamiroquai!? Well they're back…in podcast discussion form! Join us this week as we discuss Canned Heat, how people who have affairs don't typically call each other “Driver”, and action movies where people are always minutes away from retirement! [Episode 19] What the Hell is This?: After claiming victory against the giant red and green aliens, the group boldly rushes into battle against the smaller statues. Soon enough, they find their numbers thinned by an enormous new enemy. [Episode 20] Shoot Me!: Several players meet with gruesome ends as the living statues continue their onslaught. Tragically, one of the mutilated victims is someone very dear to Kato and Kei. If you'd like to get updates on the latest episodes and some occasional anime memes, why not give our Facebook page a follow? ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Who's That Anime? FB Page⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ If you'd like to see the video of our podcast, check out our YouTube channel: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Who's That Anime? YouTube Channel!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ If you want to join in on the conversation why to become a member of our Discord!? ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Who's That Anime? Discord⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Want to support us on Patreon to get early access to episodes? ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Patreon⁠⁠⁠⁠ If you're interested in following some of our other endeavours, why not give these links a try? ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Couch Fuel⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ - Colin's Twitch channel ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Hail, Paimon!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ - Steve's Twitch channel Theme Music by Taylor Gray

Our third installment of Funny You Should Mention welcomes Sam Jay, former SNL writer, Tom Brady Roaster, host of HBO's Pause with Sam Jay, and stand-up comic behind such specials as Netflix's 3 In The Morning and HBO's Salute Me or Shoot Me. Sam and Mike talk cops, racism, white vs black people money management, and a joke she'll discuss but won't be telling again. Produced by Joel Patterson and Corey Wara Email us at thegist@mikepesca.com To advertise on the show, visit: https://advertisecast.com/TheGist Subscribe to The Gist: https://subscribe.mikepesca.com/ Subscribe to The Gist Youtube Page: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4_bh0wHgk2YfpKf4rg40_g Follow Mikes Substack at: Pesca Profundities | Mike Pesca | Substack  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In “I Intended for Him to Shoot Me and I Intended To Be Gone” we conclude our review of Alex Murdaugh's testimony beginning with Jim Griffin's efforts to counter the prosecutor's argument that the defendant's motivation for lying was to coverup his guilt. Griffin seeks to use Murdaugh's testimony to convince the jury that the lies were side-effects to his addiction-fueled paranoia.Crime Story Media has begun to migrate content from the CrimeStory.com website to our Patreon. For more of Crime Story and Jury Duty — including ad-free episodes of the upcoming season; Kary Antholis's Storyteller Interviews with ground-breaking, award-winning storytellers like David Simon and George Pelecanos; and all of our Amanda Knox Project opinion pieces and interviews— subscribe on Patreon for just $5 per month. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

How are so many people still falling in love with fake people online? What happened to all the sh*thead kids? And is cable TV somehow making a comeback? Plus: poopy, boobies, Billy Koch and flipping the puck to the fat kid. Further reading: The TV Show That Predicted America's Lonely, Disorienting Digital Future (Maya Salam) The Undertaker: A Seven-Year-Old Named Bjorn Threatened to Shoot Me in the Face and Called Me a Democrat (Jeremy Lambert) Americans' New TV Habit: Subscribe. Watch. Cancel. Repeat. (John Koblin/Goblin) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

How are so many people still falling in love with fake people online? What happened to all the sh*thead kids? And is cable TV somehow making a comeback? Plus: poopy, boobies, Billy Koch and flipping the puck to the fat kid. Further reading: The TV Show That Predicted America's Lonely, Disorienting Digital Future (Maya Salam) The Undertaker: A Seven-Year-Old Named Bjorn Threatened to Shoot Me in the Face and Called Me a Democrat (Jeremy Lambert) Americans' New TV Habit: Subscribe. Watch. Cancel. Repeat. (John Koblin/Goblin) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Have you ever wanted to own your own business but not known where to begin? Like, literally all you know is that you WANT a business and nothing else? This interview with coach and entrepreneur Luisa Zhou is for you. Luisa Zhou is the founder of LuisaZhou.com, which teaches people how to go from employee to entrepreneur, and scale their businesses to 6- and 7-figures. She's helped thousands of people make their first $10K to $100K in less than a year. Luisa has appeared in numerous online and print publications including Forbes, Business Insider, Money, Inc, Entrepreneur, Success magazine, and more. In this interview, Katherine mentions the content Luisa puts out for free via her YouTube channel – if you're keen to explore that, here are some places to start:  Starting your coaching business in less than 24 hours (YouTube) How to put together your first coaching package (YouTube) All you need is this one sentence marketing plan (YouTube) Books mentioned: Psycho-Cybernetics by Maxwell Maltz Think and Grow Rich (mentioned in the context of auto-suggestion) by Napoleon Hill Show notes for this episode are available at katherinecollette.com. You can subscribe to The Next Step / The First Time via your podcast app and if you like what you hear, please leave a review! If you don't like what you hear, recommend us to someone you hate.  Get  in touch via Instagram @katherinecollettewriter. This episode is sponsored by Fremantle Press and the book People Want to Shoot Me by Wayne Bergmann and Madelaine Dickie. 

In this episode the boys Sitcoms, Saskatchewan, and the Suga Show. -Spotify Stinks.-Why is Katt Williams Relevant.-Best and worst Sitcoms.-Fran Drescher is so hot.-Bernie Mac was a beast.-Tremors is top 25?-Sean O’malley is terrible on the mic. Check us out on social media, or send us an email at regrettablejtp@gmail.com. All music and production credits... The post Episode 155: Don't Shoot Me first appeared on The Ouachita Podcasts.

Lou Burno has worked as a professional bass player since the early 1960s, playing with both commercial and jazz groups. He performed with jazz legends John Mehegan, Dill Jones, Zoot Sims, Carmen Leggio, Toots Thielmans, and Bucky Pizzarelli, among others. He attended the Manhattan School of Music where he received both BMus and MMus degrees. After his training at Manhattan, he was a member of the Buffalo Philharmonic Orchestra for four seasons, and then moved to Vienna, Austria to study with Ludwig Streicher at the Vienna Hochschule für Musik. On returning to NYC in the late 1970s, he became a free-lance player, concentrating on both Broadway and concert work. Since his return he's been a member of the Brooklyn Philharmonic, American Symphony Orchestra, and the New York Pops. Among the many Broadway shows he's performed on are “A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum,” “End of the Rainbow,” and “Guys and Dolls.” Lou has also performed on the soundtracks to many major Hollywood films. He worked in Elaine Stritch's band for eleven years on her one-woman Broadway show, “Elaine Stritch at Liberty,” and her night club appearances at the Carlyle Hotel. He appears in the 2012 documentary film about her, entitled “Shoot Me.” Check out www.thebridgeportjazztrio.com

Sleepy Jean is a Canadian musician who's digging into her family history on her latest album, “Shoot Me in a Dream.” In the 1970s, her father was forced to flee his home country of Uganda and was never able to return due to political persecution. Sleepy Jean joins guest host Talia Schlanger to talk about channelling her father's experience.

For comedian Sam Jay it was love at first open mic. From putting out multiple stand up specials, to having written on Saturday Night Live, to co-creating and starring on Peacock's Bust Down, her commitment to the art of comedy is steadfast. Sam explains how failing in front of an audience is a necessary growing pain for young comedians and how going through hard life experiences can develop a comedic voice. She and Charlie dive into her comedy goals, the future of network television, and how social media has changed the comedy scene. Like any good Cripescast episode, she and Charlie fall down a rabbit hole about the 1991 film Hook and unpack the true lessons and meaning behind the movie. Be sure to follow @samjaycomedian on Instagram and check out her new special Salute Me or Shoot Me streaming on HBO.  Check us out on all platforms, @cripescast @charlieberens and @manitowocminute. For all things podcast related head to cripescast.com and for exclusive content, go to patreon.com/charlieberens. To donate to humanitarian aid in Gaza, head to doctorswithoutborders.org.

Stand-up comedian extraordinaire Sam Jay joins Scott to talk about her latest stand-up special Salute Me or Shoot Me, her time writing on SNL, and the differences between New York and Boston. Then, anarchist Bane returns to test out new material for his hour comedy special. Plus, entertainer Benny Sands stops by to talk about what happens during his Vegas show.

In last week's episode, Sarah and I primarily discussed the psychological side of the effects of weight regain and in today's episode, I want to cover the potential physiological consequences fo weight regain. We'll chat about metabolic adaptation, energy balance, and give you some practical tips to mitigate weight regain in the future.   Time Stamps:   (0:50) Physiological Ramifications of Weight Regain (1:25) The Concept of Metabolic Adaptation (2:32) Jimmy Example (4:45) Calories In vs Calories Out (9:10) 1200 Calorie Example (10:15) The Truth About Reverse Dieting (12:52) Why We Start to See Weight Regain (17:10) Leptin and Ghrelin (25:39) Steps to Avoiding Weight Regain (25:52) Self-Monitoring (28:46) High Fiber, High Protein, and Support and Environment (30:53) Shoot Me a DM and Share! --------------------- Where You Can Find Me: @joellesamantha Nutrition & Fitness Coaching: @leveltencoaching Fitness Coaching Software: @fitcoachpro

This week on Good One, host Jesse David Fox welcomes Sam Jay back to the show. Since they last spoke, Jay left her job writing for Saturday Night Live to host her own talk show, the revolutionary, provocative Pause on HBO and co-create Peacock's Bust Down. Jay is here to talk about her newest special, Salute Me or Shoot Me where she displays what really edgy material looks like. You can stream Salute Me or Shoot Me and Pause on Max. Pre-order Jesse's book, Comedy Book: How Comedy Conquered Culture–and the Magic That Makes It Work here: https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374604714/comedybook Buy tickets for Jesse's November 7 Brooklyn book release comedy show: https://www.eventbrite.com/e/a-very-good-show-to-celebrate-the-release-of-comedy-book-tickets-696148497897?aff=odwdwdspacecraft Buy tickets for Jesse's November 13 Los Angeles book release comedy show: https://www.squadup.com/events/a-very-good-show-to-celebrate-the-release-of-comedy-book-w-chris-fleming-jay-jurden-joel-kim-booster-naomi-ekperigin-and-more Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sam Jay (new special Salute Me or Shoot Me on Max!) makes it weird! Watch video of the podcast here! SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS MAGIC MIND Get 20% OFF your order https://magicmind.co/weird LIVING LIBATIONS Get 15% OFF at checkout https://livinglibations.com/weird LMNT Get a FREE sample pack Promo Code: WEIRD https://drinklmnt.com/weird

Chapter 1: She's written her name on the wall at SNL; she's written her own show ("Pause with Sam Jay," and her forthcoming special "Salute Me or Shoot Me," both on Max) But being more than her identity is her signature. When you see a fighter in the ring surrounded by her corner, you assume the corner is there to help her win her fight. But what if the fighter is there to help them win theirs? Meet Sam Jay. Chapter 2: Sometimes you have to leave home to find your place in the world, and your family to find out who you are: That journey will take you to a place you don't recognize, a self you've never seen before. In Atlanta, Sam realizes sometime in her 20s that she has to grow up again--and along the way, uncovers more of her identity. “I just kept leaning into me.”Chapter 3: You can spend a lifetime trying to beat the clock, but you can't beat your opponent until you stop listening for the bell and start fighting for your dream.More info:"Pause with Sam Jay" on Max: https://www.hbo.com/pause-with-sam-jayCredits:Executive Producers: Dave Chappelle, Radio Rahim, Noah Gersh, Jamie Schefman, Nick Panama, Kenzi Wilbur, Elliot O'DaeMusic & Sound Design: SALT AudioCreative Producer: Alex CasnoffHead of Production: Liz LeMayHead of Engineering: Jordan GalvanProduction Manager: Allie StrobelPost Coordinator: Alice BearnEdited by: Geoffrey MutchnikMixed by: Zack DjurichSound Design by: Eric Raichelson Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This week, Emmy Winning Writer/Producer Jack Burditt (Modern Family, 30 Rock, Frasier and many, many more) discusses his career path, joining a show that is already established and working on shows with green screens.Show NotesJack Burditt on IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0120994/Jack Burditt on Twitter: https://twitter.com/jackburdittMichael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAutogenerated TranscriptJack Burditt:I don't know. There was something about it that I'm like, oh, this is a show I always wanted to write. This is, and it was fun. And it was like we could go bonkers at times,Michael Jamin:But you'd go bonkers. But then you'd ground it somehow.Jack Burditt:Yes, yes. You always wanted to try to ground it somewhere in there. And even if you're leading up to a bonker scene, you wanted something setting up like this is the reason why this mayhem is going to happen.Michael Jamin:You're listening to Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin.Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome back to Screenwriters. Need to hear this. Another great guest. Hats off to me because my next guest is a friend from, I've known him for many, many years and I honestly have to say this guy's writing credits our outstanding, he's, and he's, he's going to be embarrassed when I say this, but Jack, I'm, I'm here with Jack Birded and he's literally one of the most sought after comedy writers in Hollywood. And Jack, before you say a word, let me tell you everyone what you've written on this could take a long time. You got a lot of credits, so, well, most recently, he's the creator intro runner of the Santa Clauss, the Tim Allen show on Disney Plus. Where he, Santa Claus. I'm going to, I'm just going to skip many of your credits. You have too many. I'm just going to do some of what I think of my, your highlights.Modern family. He run a Mount Modern family for many years. Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt 30 Rock, which we're definitely going to talk about. That is literally one of my favorite shows of all time. And I want to know more about that Last Man Standing, which he created new adventures of old Christine. I'm with her watching Ellie, and I know I said that wrong. Watching Ellie Inside Schwartz created, he co-created Dag Just Shoot Me, which we worked on together, Inc. Frazier. Mad about you. What else did I, I'm sure, oh, the Mindy Project did I said that right? The Mindy Project. That's how you said that show.Jack Burditt:Yes, yes.Michael Jamin:I'm unfamiliar with her. And then most importantly, the one that everyone knows you for. Father Doubting Mysteries.Jack Burditt:Jack. Well,Michael Jamin:Thank you so much. Damn, Jack, the credits on. You are nuts. We were talking yesterday, we were picketing yesterday and I was like, Jack, come on. You got to be on it. My podcast. And you were kind enough to do this. I got a lot of questions for you, Jack. I want to talk about 30 Rock, most of all, because I had a lot of questions while we were drunk on a three hour hike around the Disney lot. But I was like, let's just save it for the podcast. Tell what was 30 Rock, because I know obviously you're LA and they flew you out because that was a New York show. So you lived out New York.Jack Burditt:Yeah, I mean, they didn't fly me out. I flew myself out. Yeah, okay. That's the first thing. Okay. They don't put you up, they don't like No, no, it, yeah, no, it was,Michael Jamin:But wait a minute. Do they give you any allowance for rent or is that No, you're just paying for it out of your salary. TheyJack Burditt:Give you a moving fee, I guess, and it's not much. And it's a one-time thing, so there's no, it's point.Michael Jamin:And then, so were you living in Manhattan then?Jack Burditt:Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And it was a big decision. I mean, that came about, I was, remember, I was actually thinking of a career move at that point. WhatMichael Jamin:Was the moveJack Burditt:To go to dramas? I don't know. A lot of sitcoms. I was like, eh, I don't know. Maybe I want to try something new. But I was supervising a pilot that season, a comedy pilot. And I remember just reading a lot of the drama pilots and go, oh, this might be interesting. And even at that time, I met on Friday Night Lights, which was going to be starting up and was really interest in that show because I thought, oh, this is a great pilot.Michael Jamin:But you had to put together a bunch of different drama specs, right, to do that. Yeah. Yeah.Jack Burditt:Okay. So I did that, and then I just read in the pack. There were some sitcoms in there too, and it was the Untitled Tina Faye project. And I read that and I'm like, oh shit, I want to be on this show.Michael Jamin:Mean it was great. But then had, okay, so then your agent submitted you and then what happened?Jack Burditt:Yeah, and he, not for a long time, could not give me a meeting with Tina. She wanted the people. She wanted, and she's going to do with Robert Carlock. And I didn't know him either. And my agent really spent a lot of time just saying, well, would you meet with this guy? And she read a spec of mine that she just didn't care about that much, but he talked her to a meeting with me. So at some point I got a call, it was a Friday. They're like, can you go to New York to meet with T? And I'm like, yeah. And they said, can you get, there's a plane leaving in three hours, can you get on that? And I said, sure. So I went out, flew out on a Friday night, got there Saturday, met with her Saturday afternoon. She was still doing, she's still the head writer on S N L.Right. She was still doing weekend update. And it was a show day at S N L. I went to her office there. And I just remember there was a lot of chaos going on. And then Gore's supposed to be doing a couple bits in the episode, but they didn't know at that point whether he was going to show up or not. And I was just, wow, curious. I go, well, what happens if you, he doesn't show up? She goes, yeah, you just deal with it. And I thought, she's so calm. I go, I want to work for her so bad.Michael Jamin:Yeah. That becomes basically an episode for 30 Rocky. That's what happens.Jack Burditt:I mean,Michael Jamin:So, alright. I'm just curious about the logistics. So you rent a place in Manhattan and then you shot it, was it in Queens? In Astoria, I imagine? No, you shot inJack Burditt:30. Yeah. Yeah. Silver Cup. So no, we shot it at Silver Cup in Long Island City, Queens. We would certainly shoot at 30 Rocket Times. But no, our offices, our main set was across the river.Michael Jamin:And then how did it work? How was she able to be in the writer's room and be on set? So how did she do that?Jack Burditt:It was tough. Mean, there was a lot of her shooting during the day, and then some of us going to her apartment at night and riding at nightMichael Jamin:Afterwards. So your hours must have been really tough.Jack Burditt:They were long hours. Yeah.Michael Jamin:What was the day, typical day on that show? I mean,Jack Burditt:I don't know mean it was always long. Always. I felt like it was always at least 12 hour days. But I mean, there were times, and we've been in the doing sitcoms or stuff. I mean, there were times we saw the sun come up.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I know. It isJack Burditt:The worst feeling in the world.Michael Jamin:It is the worst feeling. But that show, this was my complaint with 30 Rock. If you laughed out loud, you'd miss the next joke. It was that funny that I was like, I'd almost watch it in silence because like, I don't want to miss it. It was so funny that you couldn't laugh because you'd miss the next big joke, which was right around the corner. It was nuts. That show, I mean, so how was that different for you writing in that show? Was there different and it was a, I don't know, what was the secret? That was a, I just love that show. It was hilarious.Jack Burditt:Yeah. I mean, I don't know. There was something about it that I'm like, oh, this is a show. I always wanted to write this. And it was fun. And it was like, we could go bonkers at times,Michael Jamin:But you'd go bonkers. But then you'd ground it somehow.Jack Burditt:Yes, yes. You always wanted to try to ground it somewhere in there. And even if you're leading up to a bonker scene, you wanted something setting up, this is the reason why this mayhem is going to happen, or, yeah. Right. But I feel like on that show, we've been in rooms before and you pitch something really funny and everybody's pitching on top of it, and then the showrunner's like, yeah, but we can't do that. AndMichael Jamin:On that show it was like, we can that. So I mean, is that right? I mean, was there prettyJack Burditt:Much, yeah, quite often I'm things that I knew if I'd pitch on other shows, it would've been like a, yeah, that's really good. We're not doing that. Right. I thought, oh, it's got a shot here.Michael Jamin:But the thing is, I don't remember. I don't really remember. I don't remember the Beg, the early episodes. It couldn't have started out that broad. It couldn't have. Right. Because no one would've approved that. But no network is going to say you'd be this crazy red out of the gate. Right?Jack Burditt:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it helped to have the power of Lor. Michaels behind it. He was an EP on it. But yeah, I, what the show became was a bit different from what it started, and there became more frenetic and a little bit more crazy as it went along. But I mean, even in that first season, I mean episode, I don't even know, maybe it was episode nine. By episode nine, we had Paul Rubins just playing this crazy character, and it was the first timer like, oh, maybe this is what the show can be.Michael Jamin:Oh, was really, is that what it was? Wait, the one time in Hits, and you'reJack Burditt:Like, yeah. Yeah.Michael Jamin:So I, I'm pretty sure you, well, you were in episode runs, weren't you? Weren't you in it once? IJack Burditt:Was in a few, yes.Michael Jamin:Yes, a few. And you TJack Burditt:Tina liked to, I think Tina and Robert Carlock. I don't like being on film, which is why theyMichael Jamin:Put you inJack Burditt:It. I think it was, but I also think it was partially, I did a lot of set duty. I was on set a lot during that run. And I think there's also the feeling of you put him in front of the camera so he knows what every actor's going through. And maybe it is helpful because in front of camera can be terrifying.Michael Jamin:Sure. But tell me, okay, so why were you on set most of the time? Why did they chooseJack Burditt:You? A lot the time. I mean it, I felt like in the early years, they just had, there were a few of us, there was me, they, John Regie, Kay Cannon, I don't know. There was a trust in some of us that they're like, you can sit on set. If something comes up, you can be there. Help rewriteMichael Jamin:It. Because Tina was there all the time. Right?Jack Burditt:A lot of the time. Yeah.Michael Jamin:And so she would say, Hey, can you take on another whack at this terrible scene? And then you'd got to just fix it on the set.Jack Burditt:Yeah. Yeah.Michael Jamin:So far, when we were doing Marin, I think I've told this before, but we did a scene in an anger management. Mark was in anger management. So they had a big circle where all of the other people in anger management. And so Mark yells me, he goes, jam and get in here. He wanted to be an extra in the scene. So I'm like, all right. He thought it'd be funny. So I'm sitting in the anger management scene, and then the director all cut, and then I get up and I go to the director, give him notes and all the extras. This guy is going to get fired. What the hell is he doing? Why is he talking to the director like that?Jack Burditt:That's hilarious. Do you remember the time on Just Shoot Me, were Steve was going to put me in a scene in the elevator and ask what he said? Yeah. Or I think somebody else had picked, maybe it should be Bird in the Elevator when George Siegel gets in there and Steve's like, yeah, fine, that seems good. But then the next day he's like, you know what Bird, it can't be in the elevator. This building is too nice of a building. And he basically going up too much of a dirt bag to be inMichael Jamin:That's, oh my God, we on, oh my. I dunno if I can say which. What? I was on a show, it was a network show, and we gave the lead character the last name. Well, you must know her. Linda ett. You know Linda, right? Yeah, yeah,Jack Burditt:Yeah,Michael Jamin:Yeah. So the network didn't realize, they didn't know her name, I guess, and they didn't like the lead being named Ti, they didn't like that name on her. She's like, what my name. But I remember we played, just Shoot Me at Ja, shoot me. We played, and it was best on pre-production. We played basketball. And then I would guard you because you were probably 35. I was like, I get the old, give me the old man. You were 35. Oh God. So now we were talking about this as well yesterday. You're running the Santa Clauss on Disney, and we were mentioning how, I hope you're comfortable talking about this, but the stress that comes with running a show versus being a Coex exec. And I wanted to get your take on, you feel what the differences are for you. What are the stresses for you when you're running a show?Jack Burditt:I mean, I guess the biggest stress of all is if something's not working, it's on you.Michael Jamin:It's on you. It'sJack Burditt:Just on you. I, and I just don't sleep. And it's like I, I'm like, I'm up at three in the morning going, Jesus, we don't figure this out. There's not going to be a script. There's not going to be. And it's just so many, I mean, how it is is a thousand questions a day, a thousand emails, texts, everything like that. And you just, you're overwhelmed. And I mean, what I like doing most is writing.Michael Jamin:But isn't that the hardest? I always say that's the hardest part of the job is the writing part, right?Jack Burditt:It's really hard, but it's also what I like the most. I love writing.Michael Jamin:But when they come to you with a wardrobe problem, aren't you just like, eh, put 'em on whatever. I don't really care.Jack Burditt:Yeah. Yeah. It's funny. In fact, every time I have run a show, always go to the head of wardrobe and I'm like, I don't know anything about it. Yeah. You see, the way I dress, I should never ever have a note on wardrobe. So I will always defer to you. And yet, I always wind up having a couple things like, no, this has got to be like this.Michael Jamin:I wonder if you feel this way as well. When I'm in a production meeting and everyone has a million questions and I'm like, oh, I got so much work to do. Can we get this over with? I got to go back and write. To me, that's not even the work. That's always like, this is nonsense I have to deal with. I got the writing is the hard part.Jack Burditt:Yeah. Yeah. I will say though, it, it's going to, production meetings is good because I think at first when you start writing, you're just like, I'll write anything. And then the production meeting,Michael Jamin:TheyJack Burditt:Say, no, clarifies what a jackass most production thinks you are for writing a simple line is going to cause so many problems and so much anxiety for prop people and wardrobe and special effects and stunts and everything like that.Michael Jamin:What about casting? Do you enjoy that part?Jack Burditt:No, I mean, right. It's tough. I mean, I know that a lot of Cassie now is done on tape, and I know that's its own problem. I know a lot of actors hate that, but I just feel so bad and being in the room with actors and you know, have 15 people coming in for a role and you're like, I could give this to 13 of them, anybody's going to be really good, so I'm going to pick this person. But a bunch of people who easily could have this job will not get it. I hate being in that position.Michael Jamin:So that's what it is. It's about you not wanting to hurt people that you don't, the part you don'tJack Burditt:Like. Yes. Yes.Michael Jamin:Interesting.Jack Burditt:Yeah, because I'm, there's so many good people out there, and there's so few jobs,Michael Jamin:Right? Yeah. What do you have, what's your interaction, I guess? What's your, yeah, what do you tell new actors to, how do you make 'em feel good? And do you have advice for them? I guessJack Burditt:It's funny because sometimes it's just like, they come in and what was in my head, they just nail it. And I'm like, that's great. But there's other times where actors will come in and do something that's completely different and really surprise me. And I go, alright, let's do it that way. And then I will wind up rewriting the role for them. Because Do youMichael Jamin:Tell that?Jack Burditt:I have told them that. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Well, how do, what do they feel about that? They must be very flattered.Jack Burditt:Yeah. Yeah.Michael Jamin:It's so interesting because you've been doing it so long, it's kind of interesting. I don't really talk about this, but you've been doing it so long, it's really not about, at this point, it's not about always getting what's out of your head casting that you're like, okay, yeah, I'll do some, I'll just surprise me, do something different. It's no longer about your ego at this point. It's about just what's interesting, right?Jack Burditt:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. And when I say I hate Cassian, it's not like I hate, I'm rooting for everyone that walks through the door. I want everyone to be great, and that's it. Not because I know there's certain writers who just have a sour feeling about all actors or whatever. It's like, it's not that at all. In my case,Michael Jamin:Although, but now, because it's like, how much do you do when you're watching on tape? How much will you give them? If they have the three minute audition, how long will you watch the whole thing?Jack Burditt:Yeah, I do. I do.Michael Jamin:That's good of you. Yeah. That's really good of you. Because you know, might be reading 10 actors.Jack Burditt:Yeah, I know. But I just feel like I owe it to them.Michael Jamin:That's really good of you, especially at the end of the day when you're tired or you have more things toJack Burditt:Do. Yeah, yeah.Michael Jamin:And then on set, what else? Exactly. Let's say, I know we're getting back to the 30 Rock, but what are you looking at when you're on set? Or is it just all script? It's all about the words.Jack Burditt:Yeah. Mostly. I'm not one of those. Very rarely will I go in and go, this is blocked wrong, or anything like that. Or the act. Yeah, it's mostly about the words,Michael Jamin:Really. Yeah. So it's not even about making sure you have the right coverage. You just whatever you, you'll trust that to the director or theJack Burditt:Yeah,Michael Jamin:The dp. Yes.Jack Burditt:I mean, yeah, I'll call that out every once in a while. Like I don't think we, I got this reaction. I think the actor gave us the reaction. I don't think we have itMichael Jamin:On camera. Yeah, yeah. Right. And I'm sure you learned a lot just from being in post, right? Yes.Jack Burditt:Yeah. I know. It's one of the reasons we're running circles around Disney and other studios now, picketing, one of the big issues is younger writers aren't getting a chance to either be on set or do post. And I mean, if you're writing tell, youMichael Jamin:Have to know all this. YouJack Burditt:Got to know all of it.Michael Jamin:Yeah, they don't, it's so odd because I think they're just being shortsighted it, it's going to be fine five or 10 years. But after that, when the older writers were done, these younger writers, they're not going to have this studio system. They, they created this thing that works, this Hollywood machine that really works well. And I feel like they're just trying to save a couple of bucks, but they're going to destroy it 10 or 15 years from now. What are you doing?Jack Burditt:Yeah.Michael Jamin:Hollywood has this monopoly that they're just kind of ruining. I don't know why they'd want to do that.Jack Burditt:Didn't your writing completely change after you started doing Post the way you would write a script?Michael Jamin:Yeah, it would. Well, it, not only that, it changed the way we would shoot it. We were hired on a job just because Steve and I knew how to look at the cameras we were hired on for pre-production, but they kept us through production because we knew what to do, how to watch the cameras, which the other people didn't know how to do. But yeah. But now you were also mentioning your post-production is so long. This is something I know very little about. Special effects. What is that whole process on with the show you're on now?Jack Burditt:Yeah.Michael Jamin:What do I need to know? If I were to say, kill you and take your jump,Jack Burditt:What you need to know isMichael Jamin:Don't do it. Don't take the jump.Jack Burditt:All the effects is so much more expensive than you can ever imagine.Michael Jamin:Well, yeah. So is a lot of green screen, is it rotoscope? What is this?Jack Burditt:Yeah, yeah, it's green screen. Yeah, IMichael Jamin:So when you're on set, how do you know if they're doing it right? I know. I never know. I don't.Jack Burditt:No, you got to trust it, I guessMichael Jamin:At theJack Burditt:Time. You got to be like, I hope. Yeah, we were, and we shot stuff this year that I was just like, so those mountains we see in the background, because this is supposed to be Chicago we're in, and not Santa Clarita, those mountains will be gone. I don't know if there's no money in the budget, suddenly Chicago's going to have a mountains,Michael Jamin:So they'll take all of, so it's all, yeah, even that, that's not even, okay, so it's not evenJack Burditt:That's green screen. It's right. It's like things to paint out, or they're dealing with a green horse head on set and you have person talking to it, and you have to trust that at some point, that's going to be a character talking to a reindeer and the reindeer's talking back.Michael Jamin:Right. And that, so you are overseeing that whole process. So in other words, if the map looks funny to you, you're like, nah, can you do it again? The map looks stupid, orJack Burditt:Yeah. Yeah. You'll giveMichael Jamin:Those kind ofJack Burditt:Notes. Yeah, yeah. Until you're told we have no more money and no more.Michael Jamin:It's like,Jack Burditt:Oh. And then you're like, oh, it looks fine.Michael Jamin:You know what though? But yeah, when we did Maryland, which is such a low budget show, if there was one shot, the cameras in front of the door at the door of a house and the door swings open, and for a fraction of a second, you can see the camera looking in the reflection of the camera in the door, but only if you're looking and only for a half a frame. And they said, oh, we'll just take that out. The post-production super supervisor says, Hey, we have some money, we'll take it out. I'm like, why bother? I didn't see it,Jack Burditt:ButMichael Jamin:It was going to cost a lot of money. I was like, I don't, is this really matter to us? But they did. They removed it. I was amazed. It was like a $5,000. And it doesn't make the show better. It just doesn't make it worse, I guess, right?Jack Burditt:Yes.Michael Jamin:Yeah. So interesting. What do you say, I don't know. What's it like with working with young writers now? What do you say to the young writers? Tell me,Jack Burditt:What do you say? I mean,Michael Jamin:What's it like working with young writers because you are still working in network? Big shows. I'm on mostly low budget shows where it's like three people complaining or whatever. IJack Burditt:Mean, it's fun. Yeah, it's fun working with young writers. They're soMichael Jamin:Enthusiastic.Jack Burditt:They are very enthusiastic. And then look, I mean, on Santa Clauss in season one, I mean, our two staff writers came in and pitched this whole Santa Claus mythology to dive into, and it's really become a big part of the show. TheyMichael Jamin:Pitched it before they got hired, or when they got hired,Jack Burditt:When they got hired.Michael Jamin:So they came in on their own. They said, Hey, what about this? And thatJack Burditt:Sounds smart, and let's really dive into the mythology of Santa Claus and past Santa Clauses and Oh, wow. And it really kind of opened a lot of avenues and it made it interesting. And I honestly think it bought us, when we did it last year, it's supposed to be one time limited series, and it did really well. But I also think that storytelling that the staff writers brought in kind of helped get a second season to, that's interesting. Oh, there's other areas that dig, get we. It's not just about Tim Allen playing Scott Calvin as Santa Claus, and he got a family. But there's this entire world, and I don't know the mythology world that much. I watched some of these shows or whatever, but I never broken them down before. But these writers were just, a lot of the young writers, they're very much into that. And soMichael Jamin:I have noticed that too. When we work with young writers, they're very enthusiastic, very. And a lot of them come in, it's day one, and they got piles of ideas and the showrunner's, all right, and then what do we got? And they come up, they start pitching their ideas and they're like, whew, at least someone came prepared. Let's do their idea. Because the older writer's like, I don't really know. We'll have to bang our head up against the wall. But the young kids, they got ideas. Let's do those. Yeah, yeah. They're enthusiastic, but, and so I want to go through some of your credits here. You have so many interesting, I don't know. I guess, tell me how you, I guess let's start with this. How did you first break into the business?Jack Burditt:It was almost like, it should have been expected of me, but I kind of went away from it. So both my parents did this, right? I mean, originally from Cleveland, my dad was a greeting card writer, but then some of his friends, his greeting card friends started moving out to LA and working on variety shows and things like that. And at some point my dad, like midlife decides, yeah, I'm going to give that a try.Michael Jamin:Fuck all this sunshine greeting cards. This is some comedy. And when you say midlife, how old was he?Jack Burditt:He was in his fortiesMichael Jamin:And he broke in his forties.Jack Burditt:He broke in his forties, I guess it was a different time. Yeah. So we stayed in Cleveland while my dad came out and for a year tried to make it and then got on a show, a variety show, and he is like, all right, looks like I got a good job andMichael Jamin:Out. And what show was that though? Do you remember? It was a,Jack Burditt:Yes. So it was a show called Turn On, which is famous for being canceled. Even almost halfway through the airing of the first episode.Michael Jamin:At the first act, we got to get this thing off.Jack Burditt:There were so many calls to the network, which I, I'm trying to remember. Maybe A, B, C, maybe N B C.Michael Jamin:Why? Because there were so messy, there were soJack Burditt:Many calls complaining about it. It was done by some of the same people that did laughing and it was like, let's take laughing, but speed it up even quicker and make faster jokes and go all and make it insane. So yeah, it had a 13 order, so that's why we moved. He moved the family out here and then boom, after one episode, he's out of work.Michael Jamin:Oh my God. It's hilarious. We, that's so funny, Steve. And we did a show once and we had a long, kind of a long contract. I go, what if we have to stay on this show? He goes, Steve's like this show's canceled up the act pretty soon as they air. And he was kind of right. Okay. So then after that show, what happened after the show was canceled to your dad? SoJack Burditt:Then thankfully a little bit after that, then he started writing on the Andy Williams show and which was done at N B C and Burbank. And we lived in an apartment a block from Burbank. And so kind of grew up around it. I grew up in Burbank, and then he did other variety shows. Sonny and Cher was the big one. He did, but he did a lot of things. You probably never heard of the Lola Ana show, the Hudson Brothers show. He did. But I guess the mid seventies he really started, he started realizing variety shows are going away.Michael Jamin:Well, there were a ton of them. There was Donny and Marie. I mean, it was the realJack Burditt:Big deal. But he, I wanted to make the switch to sitcoms and he had a writing partner and they wrote a Jeffersons, they wrote on Jeffersons, they wrote all in the Family and Sanford and Son,Michael Jamin:All amazing shows.Jack Burditt:And then the guys who ran the Jeffersons started three, each company. And then that's what my dad and his partner did. They jumped ship and they went on this new show, threes company, which was just this massive, massive hit.Michael Jamin:But all those shows were massive. All of my favorite shows, I didn't know he did three's company. Oh my God.Jack Burditt:Yeah. So I think he wound up writing probably more episodes of Three's company than anybody. I think SoMichael Jamin:Did you go to set a lot? Did what wasJack Burditt:Growing? Yeah, and it was funny. So yeah, I was kind of fascinated by it. I got a kick out of it. I never thought of it as a career. I'm like, my brother and my sister are really smart. I'm kind of the dummy of the family.And I always thought, oh, maybe they'll do something in there. My brother would make home movie. He is always making movies with those Super eight. But yeah, I just going, I thought it was fun to, I would go to Sonny and Cher, go to see those tapings, and then down the hall all in the family would be shooting and my dad would go, you want to go down to see Hall in the family? Yeah. I went down and just some dump, dump kid wandering around C B s television City. And then we'd go by and I'd watch Carol Burnett being filmed and amazing. And never occurred to me that this could be a career in any way.Michael Jamin:I don't know why your dad was doing it.Jack Burditt:Yeah, I don't know. I really, because like these are all smart, funny people doing it, I guess.Michael Jamin:And then when you went into the, weren't you in the military after? Did you not or was there somebody else? No. Oh, okay. Alright. So what? I wasJack Burditt:Not, my daughter went in the military, somebodyMichael Jamin:Thinking, no, I know, but I thought you did. But I guess, or I didn't wait, but IJack Burditt:Know. No, no, no. I, oh, I worked at Lockheed. I did. I mean, thatMichael Jamin:Makes mean they make stuff in theJack Burditt:Military's. I worked on missiles. So maybeMichael Jamin:What did you do in the missiles? What did you put gunpowder in it?Jack Burditt:I honestly, I don't think I'm allowed to say everything I did. Is thatMichael Jamin:Right? You had security clearance?Jack Burditt:Probably shouldn't have said missiles. I can say missiles. It's been a long time. We know Lockheed, they made missiles, so Right.Michael Jamin:Wow. My college roommate, he was on Secret Service detail for many years. And when I ran him to at college reunion, I hadn't seen him many years and I was like, dude, I can't believe we're on Secret Service. How many of them are many are there on the Secret Service detail? And he goes, that's classified. I go, that's the answer I wanted. That's all I wanted. I don't care about the number, I want you to tell me it's classified. Okay. Alright. So then at what point after you decided you didn't want to make missiles anymore, did you get into comedy writing?Jack Burditt:So the one thing I did know I could do was write,Michael Jamin:How did you know?Jack Burditt:Just in high school, I mean, like I said, I'm kind of a dummy and I barely graduated from high school. And the only way I graduated from high school was I loaded up on any course that had writing in it. I can bss my way through this. So I knew that. Also knew I enjoyed writing. I would just write stuff all the time. And then I liked journalism a lot. And so after high school, did a little bit of college, but not really didn't. And I worked at Magic Mountain as the right operator. AndMichael Jamin:Hey, it's Michael. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michael jamin.com/watchlist.Jack Burditt:Got yeah, started going out with another ride operator, and at some point she got pregnant and we're like, eh, let's get married. See how this goes. We're dumb teenagers. And we got married and we're still married today.Michael Jamin:But then didJack Burditt:So because of that, because I had to be responsible. I can't continue working as a riot operator. Then I worked at Lockheed, and that's where I did the missiles thing. But my wife, her friend worked at the Daily News, Los Angeles Daily News, and she knew I was interested in journalism and she got me a job as they called 'em copy boys at the time. They're editorial assistants, basically a PA for newspapers. And back then stuff still came over. The wire wasn't computer and you'd rip the wire and get different people. So I was working there for a few months and still hustling, trying to pitch editors on, can I write something? And they're like, who is this dumb kid? But then, yeah, I met the entertainment editor and just started hanging around and he took a liking to me and I got an assignment to interview a band. And that was my first, it was my first writing gig, my first professional writing.Michael Jamin:What was the band?Jack Burditt:It was a country group called Alabama. Oh,Michael Jamin:Sure. But that's not sitcom, right? That's not narrative.Jack Burditt:No. And I was really happy working for newspapers. I really enjoyed it. But while I was working there, I was working with a couple other reporters who wanted to get into script writing, and they had heard at one point about my dad.Michael Jamin:They're like,Jack Burditt:Why aren't you doing this? Yeah. I'm like, he does it. And he does it really well. I don't guess that's the biggest part of it is my dad did it so well. I didn't want to be the guy who's trying to do the same thing and being bad at it. Interesting. And I think that was always a fear, but one of these reporters, he had been in special forces and he wanted to write action movies. So the three of us would sit there and write these spec action movies, scripts, we'd get drunk a lot too, and doing that. And we got an agent, not a very good agent, but we got an agent and nothing was happening with that. And at some point I was like, you know what? We should try tv. And the guy who was in the Special Forces, he's like, I don't like tv. I don't watch tv. And he really didn't. But I think I convinced, I think at one point we wrote a cheer speck and I, I wrote a lot and I mostly wrote specs on my own. I just liked writing. I mean, geez, I probably wrote, so wrote the cheers. You wrote a Roseanne. Wow. Probably a home improvement.Michael Jamin:But did you really know then how to write, how act breaks? Did you really, I, there's a difference between knowing how to writing and enjoying writing and knowing how to write.Jack Burditt:So I didn't know what I was doing. And so I didn't really go to my dad for advice. And by this point, my mom was also became a television writer. She was writing in one hours, and I did not bug them about it. And it was just idiotic. And I think there was an embarrassment on my part or I, I'm not sure exactly why. So interesting. But I got a job reading scripts picking up, so did it for Tristar, did it for Disney Channel, did it for a couple play as a script reader and doing notes. And that to me was the education really. And I started to really see what worked, what didn't,Michael Jamin:The scripts.Jack Burditt:And I remember I read a couple books and read articles on writing, and it was always, those first 10 pages better be great. And I did discover a world where so many people had a really strong first 10 pages, and then it all fell off a cliff. And I'm like, no, I think it's those middle of the scripts that if you can nail that, then you're in good shape.Michael Jamin:But when did you, because for me, it really took many years, even as after we became professional writers, before I really kind of understood how to write. Yeah, it was mostly relying on more senior writers to do the heavyJack Burditt:Lifting. Right, right.Michael Jamin:Well, when did you figure that out?Jack Burditt:I mean, yeah, I don't know. Like I said, I did the script reading. I was still doing journalism, did the script reading on the side, and I think that really helped. Then I got a job at Disney as a script reader, and I was like full-time on the lot doing that. And then I was just around it and around people who talked about scripts and which is really, I would go to meetings that I should not have been in. I was in meetings with Michael Eisner and Jeffrey, and where they're talking about projects coming up and how to do this or do that. And I also didn't know my place. I would, I remember one point argue with Eisner, and then after the meeting, my boss said, you can never do that again.Michael Jamin:We did the show for him. This was a Michael Eisner show, and we would try to, he was a good boss, but we would try to convince him if he was stuck on something, there was no way you were going to change his mind ever. Not in a million years. And so it was his way. Okay. But for the most part, he let us do what we wanted, but once in a while he'd say, no, we're not going to do it my way. Well, you have the money. SoJack Burditt:There was one point, so there was a project, it was for the Disney Sunday movie, and Disney had signed these triplets, they're called Creole Creole triplets, and they're cute, I think 16 year olds. And Jeffrey Katzenberg wanted a show where, or a movie where on their 16th birthday, they discovered their witches. And so it was kind of charmed before Charmed. And I had been in those meetings where Kastenberg talked about it. So they hired a writer, and that writer, the first writer they got didn't really nail it. And then I had been in those meetings, I gave notes on it. They wanted me to give notes and say, this is what it should be. And then they wound up going with another writer, and she wasn't nailing it. And I gave notes and she did another pass. And it's like, I know this isn't what he wants. And so I did what you're not supposed to do. And over a weekend, I wrote, rewrote the first 30 pages of the script. And I went in Monday and I gave it to my boss, and I said, here's what I did. And she said, you can get fired for this.Michael Jamin:Why can't you get fired for that?Jack Burditt:Because I'm a reader. I'm not allowed to take a project and do my own pass on it. ButMichael Jamin:Why not though? BecauseJack Burditt:I don't know, there'sMichael Jamin:Still her version and then there's your version.Jack Burditt:It is a rule. Or maybe they just wanted to fire me. I don't know. Okay.Michael Jamin:Yeah. I don't know how the rules were. Okay, so you did this and she said, you shouldn't do this.Jack Burditt:She goes, yeah. She goes, you can get fired for this. I go, I know, but could you read it? And later that day, she came into my office, she goes, this is really good. I want to pass it up. But once again, I passed it up, you might get fired. I went, okay. And it got passed up and Kastenberg said, have this guy write the script,Michael Jamin:Then fire him. AndJack Burditt:That was your, so that was my firstMichael Jamin:Break,Jack Burditt:Yeah. Wow. And it never got made,Michael Jamin:Right?Jack Burditt:Yeah,Michael Jamin:Because things don't get made. That's how itJack Burditt:Is. Things don't get made. But then it got me, I started rewriting some Disney Channel projects and a couple, yeah, it was all these things. Nothing ever got made. I remember I was hired to write the new Mickey Mouse Club and then suddenly lost the job. And I still don't know what happened. I was you. And they're like, nah, yeah, no, you're not going to do it after all. Or that was, wow. The one with Ryan Gosling and Britney Spears andMichael Jamin:Oh my God, wow. Launched them and could've launched your career.Jack Burditt:I know I could be hanging out with all of 'em now. It'd be so much fun. So I was doing that, still working newspapers at times, still doing some script reading, the whole script reading career too. I was like always liked looking for things. And I think the only success story I ever had was I found an article in American Heritage Magazine about a newsboy strike in the 19 early 19 hundreds against Pulitzer and Hearst and I passed along because Disney was always looking for things for kids that kids could be in. And I said, Hey, I think this might be a movie. I never pitched it as a musical or anything. I thought it was a straight ahead thing, but it was like NewsiesMichael Jamin:And they, right, that became that. But you didn't have, so just whatever your job was to come up with ideas or you found an idea, you pitched it, or you put up the ladder, but you didn't get any credit. You don't get dirt. No, no. It was just, that sucks.Jack Burditt:And that's it. But yeah, also, I made money reading scripts for years, and that was the only thing that ever,Michael Jamin:Yeah, but it wasn't, I mean, you were raking it in as a script reader,Jack Burditt:Right? No, no. Right. No, no. It was mostly, it was actually a tough job for the little money. But like I said, I think that's where I learned everything. So that was helpful. And then I was still kind of kicking around, picking up little projects where I could and still work in newspapers. And I covered the riots in 92, the LA riots, and was so shook up by it. And so I really thought it was going to die up there. Everything was terrifying. And at this point, I got four kids. I'm, none of them will ever be able to go to college or anything, just scraping by. And I was like, I really need to write a great spec and try to get into sitcoms. It was finally, then I'm like, I'm really going to try this. And I wrote a Seinfeld spec that got wound up getting me with contacts I'd made Wound up getting me a really good agent. And within a few months I was on mad about you on the staffMichael Jamin:That was. And how many years were you on Mad About YouJack Burditt:Two? I did two Years On Mad About You.Michael Jamin:That was a really good show. And then Frazier, of course. And then, and most also, well, not most recently, but pretty recently, modern Family. The thing that strikes me about Modern Family is everyone in that room, I imagine it was a showrunner, potential showrunner had run shows. It'sJack Burditt:Crazy.Michael Jamin:It was really a talented room.Jack Burditt:Yeah. I mean, yes, it was. I like being on a show early on and really being able to put whatever fingerprints I can on it and direction and take character. Oh, let's do that. I like being at the creation of something. But there was something really nice about coming into the Modern family at the end, and I only worked on the last three seasons of that show. And just being no stress, no pressure. It's just, I'll tell some of my weird family stories and maybe they'll go in the episodes andMichael Jamin:Because it must be nice knowing that anyone in that room is capable. It's okay if you're having an off day, someone else would be fine. You're in good hands no matter who's talking.Jack Burditt:It was an amazing, amazing room.Michael Jamin:It's unusual.Jack Burditt:Or rooms becauseMichael Jamin:There's multiple rooms. And did you go back and forth, because obviously Steve ran Run Room and Chris together, but did you jump back and forth, or were you in someone's room most of the time?Jack Burditt:I think the first season I was there, I was mostly in Steve's the second season. It was about half and half in the third season that I was mostly,Michael Jamin:Do you know why,Jack Burditt:Chris?Michael Jamin:I would be like, wait, does he not like me? And then if I got into that room, wait a minute, he doesn't like me anymore. I would be paranoid no matter what roomJack Burditt:I was in. Yeah, right.Michael Jamin:But it was just they wanted to mix it up or what?Jack Burditt:Yeah. I mean, yeah, that first year, whatever room you started in, you were kind of there. And when I say first year, my first year, it was year nine of the show, and then there was an concerted effort. The writer said, you know what? That got too weird last year. Let's always keep mixing it up.Michael Jamin:Okay.Jack Burditt:And so season 10, we really, everybody I think did about half and half.Michael Jamin:You can answer this now, but did you, before you got there, did you watch every single episode or no?Jack Burditt:Yeah, so I had watched a show a pretty much every week, I think the first three seasons and then what happened in life. And so when I knew I was going to go on the show, I got episodes four through eight, and I just watched them all, which is a horrible way to do it. Why? Because I just bing because nothing lands. Oh. Because then I found myself pitching things and they're like, we already did that. And I'm like, really? And then they would tell me the story. I'm like, oh yeah, I saw that.Michael Jamin:Was that the one I slept through? Is that,Jack Burditt:And I felt like, I think I waited too late, like, oh, I'm going to start there next week. I got to binge every episode.Michael Jamin:Wow. And then of course, yeah, you created Last Man Standing. Now you working with Tim Allen again, and yeah, I don't know. What do you see? What does the future look like? I don't know. How has it changed for you? What's your perception? What's going on with the future of writing?Jack Burditt:Future of writing? I mean, make meMichael Jamin:Feel good.Jack Burditt:Yeah. I makes me feel good. Yeah. I decide I have to stop, have to censor myself on the picket line because yeah, I message, look, it's rough. I think what we talked about earlier, young writers are not learning the skills to run a show or whatever. And it's really, I think that has to change, I think for the sake of the business. But I don't know mean for the future tough. I hope we've hit the low point right now and that things get a little bit better. But the business is broken in a way too. And I think business has to figure itself out. And as much as writers got to figure out what their place is in the business, but I keep hearing not all these streamers will exist in a couple years. Right? And I'm like, what does that mean though, too? And our network's dead or not? Or I don't know any of this. I it's, and I've never felt like I don't have a handle on the business, but right now, I don't know.Michael Jamin:It's interesting. We sold a pilot to, I don't want to say which one, we, to a streamer, this is, I don't know, a year or so ago. And then we turned it in and it just sat on someone's desk for probably close to a year before they finally said, it's dead. It took 'em that long to say. Yeah. And then I think what happened was, usually you find out in a couple of weeks or whatever, but I think what happened was they couldn't decide if the streamer was dead or not. It wasn't really about their show. Oh, it was about the future of the streamer. I think that's what they're thinking about. It's like, are we really going to do this? Why are we in business? So I don't know.Jack Burditt:I can't believe Netflix is thinking that way, butMichael Jamin:Between me and you, you'll hear it here first. You heard it here first,Jack Burditt:ButMichael Jamin:You know what though, Jack, you are like us. I said this to Andy Gordon because, and Andy obviously, he just really enjoys writing. And you're the same way. I feel like you're just like, Andy will write and whatever. I don't really care. I'll just write something. As long as I'm writing, I do it the same way. Yeah,Jack Burditt:It, I mean, yeah, I'm always just writing things, just I do enjoy it. And Andy, you're right. Andy is another person I know, just loves it. Loves, yeah. Andy not only loves writing so much, loves everything about the business.Michael Jamin:He does. He does.Jack Burditt:And it's infectious being around him. Yeah. How much he loves it. HeMichael Jamin:Loves it. He'll take pictures. We did a show, did show in the scrim in the back, the background on stage was you could see his house. It was a Hollywood scrim, and you could see his house in that hill. And he was so excited to see his house in the scrim. Yes. That's awesome. Because he always walks around with a camera. He captures every moment. So exciting to him.Jack Burditt:He's also just one of the funniest writers. That's hilarious. And just shoot me when you're, I'll say being in that room, that was such a great room. And I also just remember, I do love, right? And I, I'll work harder than everybody. I also feel like I'm not as funny as in that room. I'm like, I know I'm not as funny as Andy or Danny or you.Michael Jamin:I don't put thatJack Burditt:Jack. No, no. Absolutely. 100% I, I'd be in that room and I'm like, yeah, I'm not going to out. Funny. These guys maybe work. And I did have a nice reputation. The best thing I've had is that I turn in great first drafts. You do. And that always my thing. It's like I don't eat or sleep when I'm working on a draft. And I just, because out of fear, I got to be as good as everybody else who's just so naturally funny. I don't know.Michael Jamin:AndJack Burditt:I would just grind and grind and grind. And even when we're in a room and going down a road and everybody's pitching really funny things, I'm like, I'm not going to be able to join in and out, pitch them. So my whole strategy was always, is there another way to go with this story?Michael Jamin:How funny. AndJack Burditt:So sometimes I would just, sometimes I couldn't figure it out and I would just be a quiet in the corner. Other times it'd be like, yeah, that's great. What if we did that? And I felt like that was, sometimes my skill is like,Michael Jamin:But even, but wait. But if that, well, first way was getting traction. If the first idea was getting traction, you wouldn't derail it with a pitch that said, what about that? IJack Burditt:Wouldn't, no. But I would like, no, not saying send the whole story, but another way to wrap up that scene or another way to try to come up with just something if it's heading some to surprise people and Yeah, this is funny. This is funny. It's going this way, this way. Oh, that happens.Michael Jamin:I don't know. What season just showed me was we were in one of the bungalows, I don't know, whatever it was. I have a clear, remember of you coming out of your office, you are off on draft on script, and you come and you were just exhausted. And it was just like, oh man. Poor Jack is on script. Yeah, you were really in it, man. You were when you're on script. Yeah, I remember that really well. You were suffering and you always turn in terrific drafts. I don't know what you're talking about, because it was always funny on page. And the most important thing is it funny on, and I don't even know how you did it, because when ER and I worked together, we know it's funny because the other person's laughing, but I always felt like, how do you know it? Because how do you know? I don't know how you did it alone. I really don't. Like how do you know it was going to be funny when you turned it in?Jack Burditt:Yeah. I mean, always felt like though there, it felt like almost every draft I turn in, there was always one or two jokes where people go, I don't get this. And I'd be like, I'd start to defend it and then realize like, yeah, no, it doesn't make sense.Michael Jamin:Don't get it either. I thought I was going to pull a wool over your eyes, butJack Burditt:Do youMichael Jamin:Keep some kind of notebook now when you have ideas or what do you do?Jack Burditt:No, I used to carry a notebook everywhere I went. Really? I don't anymore. And I don't know. At some point I'm like, eh, if I don't remember it, it wasn't that good to begin with. But I know there's a couple things I've forgotten. I'm like, I know. That was good. I can't remember what that wasMichael Jamin:Exactly. What Siebert and I say when we're on Tacoma fd, because we don't take a lot of notes. And there always our feelings. Well, if you don't remember, it was probably no good. No, but it was good. I dunno, maybe I should write it down, I guess. Oh, we should feel like you can come with something else. It's like it's not the end of the world. You come up with something, a better joke or whatever. Right. Anyway, that's so funny. Well, Jack, I want to thank you so much. This is an interesting talk. I really enjoyed this. I definitely enjoy getting your perspective on all of this, damn, honestly. And I have to, I'll say one last thing before I let you leave. You were always very support. I was a younger writer on just Shoot me. And you were very supportive of me. And I remember you sticking up for me one day and I really appreciate that. I don't remember what the details, but I said something, it was a joke. We were pitching on something. It was probably 10 o'clock at night. I was by by exhaust. And I pitched something that was kind of incoherent andSomeone started making fun of me, which you're supposed to do in the writer's room. You're supposed to make fun of the other person. But you came to my defense, you're like, no, this is his process. This is how he comes up with stuff. Leave him alone. And I always remembered that and little things like that. It's important. Oh,Jack Burditt:Well, itMichael Jamin:Really meant a lot. Really meant a lot to me.Jack Burditt:No, I liked your process too, because it was all out loud and you would try to, that's theMichael Jamin:Bad part.Jack Burditt:No, but it was interesting to me like, oh, I feel like it's what happens in a music studio, and I'm trying to figure out the thing. Yes, most people I think would keep it, try to figure it out in their head. But I also felt like with your process, because trying to get it right, you would throw something out and then work it and work it. But I also felt like there were times where you throw something out and you started working it, but then somebody else would pick up on it and I'm like, oh, maybe. To me it was like I always kept it inside until I felt like was I was 100% cooked and I probably shouldn't have at times. At times I'm like, I should have thrown something out that was half cooked and maybe gotten some help.Michael Jamin:But that's the thing. And I feel like I should have, I have not say everything out loud. That also can be a burden. When you're just spewing on stuff that's not ready to be heard, then everyone's shut up. So I can think, but how I think it's like whatever you're doing, you're always, am I doing it right? Maybe I'm doing it wrong. Whatever you're doing. I always feel like I'm probably doing it the wrong way. Someone else is doing it better.Jack Burditt:Right. Well, and that's one, and this, I guess would be the advice for younger writers if they ever happen to get into a room too. Yeah. It's just one thing I learned very late in life on this is every writer in that room is terrified that they're failing. Even the veterans, even ones have been doing it a long time, they're just like, oh shit. Oh man, if I don't, I got to get their, everybody is in their own heads, but do youMichael Jamin:Still feel that though? I mean, do you feel like other veteran writers that you currently work with or work with in the recent past feel that way still?Jack Burditt:I think the really good ones feel thatMichael Jamin:Way. Really?Jack Burditt:Yes.Michael Jamin:They feel like they're, they're stru. This is all garbage. It's all gone downhill. Yeah. Really. The good ones interesting. I'll have to get names from you, but I certainly feel like whenever we start a script, I'm like, ah, crap. You know what I really feel, I felt like, and I remember on Just Shoot Me Feeling This, every time you write a story, you break someone. We would break a story in the room and I always felt like, well, that's it. There's no more stories. That's it. How could there be more? It took us how took a week to figure out this one. Yes,Jack Burditt:Yes. Yeah. I know. It was all, yes. Especially those times where it really took a long time.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Jack Burditt:How did that take so much? We're we're done. Yeah, we, we've explored these characters too much and now,Michael Jamin:But you must've felt that way in Modern Family though, when you've done season nine,Jack Burditt:Right? I mean, yeah.Michael Jamin:You've done everything. I mean, I know in Simpsons they say, yeah, but we've only done it three times. Right.Jack Burditt:So we can still do it was this week. One more time out of it,Michael Jamin:But that shows 30 years old or whatever.Jack Burditt:God. But it's incredible.Michael Jamin:Alright, well Jack, thank you again so much. Yeah, it really was such a pleasure. This is a good talk. Alright everyone, until next week, keep tuned. Keep writing is what I all, I always say. Alright. Thanks again, Jack.Phil Hudson:This has been an episode of Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you're interested in learning more about writing, make sure you register for Michael's monthly webinar @michaeljamin.com/webinar. If you found this podcast helpful, consider sharing it with a friend and leaving us a five star review on iTunes. For free screenwriting tips, follow Michael Jamin on social media @ MichaelJaminWriter. You can follow Phil Hudson on social media @PhilaHudson. This podcast was produced by Phil Hudson. It was edited by Dallas Crane Music by Ken Joseph. Until next time, keep writing.

Music runs in the family for Canadian blues singer Angelique Francis. On the heels of winning blues album of the year for “Long River” at this year's Junos, Angelique talks to guest host Talia Schlanger about hitting stages across the country with her band, which includes her dad and two sisters. Plus, Sleepy Jean is a Canadian musician who's digging into her family history on her new album, “Shoot Me in a Dream.” In the 1970s, her father was forced to flee his home country of Uganda and was never able to return due to political persecution. Sleepy Jean joins Talia to talk about channeling this in her music.

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This week we tackle questions from our March Webinar titled The Secret To Getting Ahead in Hollywood. We host a webinar every month. Register for the next one using the link below.Show NotesFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAuto-Generated TranscriptsMichael Jamin:You're listening to Screenwriters Need to hear this with Michael Jamin.Everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome back for another episode of Screenwriters. Need to hear this. We're doing a q and a, another q and a as if you're new here. So at once a month, Phil and I, we do a free webinar on screenwriting. And sometimes we talk about writing, sometimes we talk about breaking into the business. Sometimes we talk about at Get industry types to attend your event that's coming up. Each one, each month is a different topic and it's about an hour long and it's free. But we got a lot of questions at the end and it can only have time to answer so many of them. So here are the ones that I missed. So thank you all for coming, for listening. Here are the ones that I couldn't get to.Phil Hudson:Yeah. And this is for the March webinar. And we also have the April webinar questions to get through too, because oh, weMichael Jamin:Got some many questions. A lot,Phil Hudson:Lot of questions.Michael Jamin:The March webinar, what was on, I'm so sorry Phil, I'm putting you on the spot. What was that one for?Phil Hudson:Let's, let's see if I can pull it off. One second.Michael Jamin:Yeah,Phil Hudson:Pressures on. Ding to, I've got it up. The secret to getting ahead in Hollywood. Four things you must know.Michael Jamin:Yeah, the secret to getting ahead. Okay, so here are the questions. Yeah,Phil Hudson:So hit me, Phil. Now to be clear, there are several, there were a lot of questions here. I mean, there were like 70 questions we didn't get to. That webinar is an hour long and it's dedicated to 15 to 20 minutes of q and a. And you actually, you try to push through a lot of the stuff to get to the questions. And despite that, we still have so many. So I have removed duplicate questions. So in our last episode, doing the February q and a, you answered a bunch of these and there are other questions we've already talked about on the podcast or you have talked about on your social media. So if your question is not here and we don't answer it, apologize. But that's already been discussed pretty in depth. So lots of great content just go to at Michael Jamin writer to learn more or look at past podcast episodes related to your topic because we've covered a lot of this alreadyMichael Jamin:@MichaelJaminWriter on Instagram and TikTok and Facebook.Phil Hudson:So yeah, @MichaelJaminWriter, right?Michael Jamin:Just making sure. No, I'm sorry. I dunno,Phil Hudson:My own name. Mi... Michael Jamin, some other guy.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Phil Hudson:So cool. Well, question number one, Robert Cowie asked, is there such a thing as a perfect script or is it in the eye of the beholder?Michael Jamin:No. Such a thing. As a matter. As a matter of fact. And it's a great question. I remember working on, just Shoot Me, this was my first staff writing job. And some of the older, more experienced writers, great writers in that show, people Hall I'll interview on the podcast. They turned a script. And I remember reading it thinking, oh my God, this is hilarious. This is gold. And then they would get notes from the Showrun. I'm like, w w what? Why are they getting, this is perfect. And you can always improve. You could always make it be better or slightly different. The Showrun runner was looking for something a little different, but there's no such thing, no writer ever turned a script. You could be Shakespeare, you would get notes. It's just how it works. So there's no such thing as a perfect script.Phil Hudson:Writing is rewriting, and eventually you reach to a point where you stop because you could just spend forever trying to make it better. And then five years from now, you're going to look back and think, that was horrible. I could have done better. Yeah, because you're progressing in the art, right? Yeah. You use Picasso as an example all the time about mastery. And in the course, I think he even show examples of his work as a teenager moving into his twenties. And then he becomes so good at the rules, he can bend the rules and become something truly unique. And that's the path of mastery in any craft.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah. Cool. And that's actually part of the fear as I was talking to my wife Cynthia this morning, cause I'm putting, getting ready to put my book out, a paper orchestra, and I'm like, once I put it out, I can't stop tinkering with it. I'm done. I no can no longer tinker with it. I'm done. And that's going to be a little difficult for me because I can't, there, there's always things that I wish I could do different when I look it over and it's like, no, you got to let it go. And now she's like, well, that's what your second book is for, is to do things differently in your second book, but you got to let it go at some point.Phil Hudson:Yeah, excellent point. Jenin, Macumba music. And I apologize if I mispronounce that I have a pitch meeting with a big league company. I am terrified. Any tips on how a pitch meeting should go?Michael Jamin:You should pitch them what you think it should be and then you should be open to hearing their ideas and incorporate their ideas and make them feel ownership in it. Because if you say, no, no, no, this is my way, the highway, well, they're not going to have any pride of ownership, but if they bounce an idea off you and they go, oh, and that excites you. Oh, that's interesting. Yes. Even if it is your idea, but they're just rephrasing it. I love that. Make them feel like it's their idea. Make 'em feel like you're being heard, that they're listening, that you're listening to them. That way they will fight more because it's their own, now it's theirs. So they'll fight for it. So 'em in them inPhil Hudson:It's a collaborative medium, despite the fact that you're the writer. It's many hands, lots of people, lots of iterations of it. What gets submitted and is not what you shoot. What you shoot is not necessarily what's going to air because there's editing, there's lots of iterations of this.Michael Jamin:And I tend to fall in love with whatever draft I'm working on, and then we'll get a note that's terrible and I'll do the note and I'm like, oh, this is pretty good because I fall in love with whatever. And then my partner will say, don't you remember how much you hated this note.Phil Hudson:That's so funny. One note, it's a bit of a tangent, but I think is an important note here. You've said in the past what you do when you're doing a new version is every day when you sit down, you save a new draft of your script so that you can always go back and you keep that. That's not directly related to pitching, but I think it does speak to keeping your versions so that you can see how it changes and grow and go back.Michael Jamin:Yeah, that's a good point. I'm going to talk more about that. But the truth is, I save him to make myself feel better, but I almost never look at 'em. I almost never go back to them. ButPhil Hudson:Glad whenMichael Jamin:You have to allows me the, but it gives me the freedom to tear it apart. I go, I still have it, I have it. If I want it now, I can just tear it apart and feel good. But if I didn't save it, I probably wouldn't want to let go of it.Phil Hudson:Yeah, it's playing. That's what your wife taught me in acting classes we're we're going to play. Yeah, right. Cool. Bobby Kin, excuse me, Bobby Kenon, any thoughts for making the transition from playwriting to screenwriting or television writing?Michael Jamin:Well, it's good for you that you're doing that story. Story. What difference does it make whether you put it on a stage or a screen, a large screen or a small screen, who cares? It's funny, when I'm writing for television, do you think I care if someone watches it on 40 inch television or on their six inch iPhone? Do I care? It doesn't change the way I'm writing it? Maybe they'll be able to see less, but I don't really, that's not my business. That's their problem. So it doesn't really change anything. It tips from becoming a playwright. Well, obviously now you have more sets to play with because on in a play, you literally can't have too many sets because where are you going to put 'em all? How are you going to get stage them? And so plays tend to be a little more talky, whereas a TV show or a movie tends to be like, well, let's wa what are we watching now? Oh, the characters on a rollercoaster. Okay, you can't do that in a play. But is story structure a story structure? And if that's something you want to learn, for sure, we got a course, you've go to michaeljamin.com/course, and we teach story and story structure. SoPhil Hudson:Yeah, there's another question in here and it's kind of buried, so I apologize. I'm not going to find the person who said it, but they asked the question. Oh, here it is. Mark Mohawk. And I think that's a fake name. It's not really. Yeah, mark Mahaw. I was going to say, yeah, I, I'm worried I'm saying something.Michael Jamin:I was going to make a joke about his name.Phil Hudson:Can you talk aboutMichael Jamin:Mark, what is itPhil Hudson:In? I think this relates to that, talking about different sets and things. When you talk more about shooting things on your own, when shooting diy, would you prioritize dialogue for budget purposes?Michael Jamin:Well, I prioritize story. The priority is you could shoot everything on your phone. The only thing you have to have is good sound. And I would, that's critical. If the sounds bad, I don't care. You don't want to, if I'm hearing wind noises more than the dialogue, if I'm hearing the background actor of more than the foreground actor, that's a problem. So sound is really important. More so than camera, work lens with camera, you're going to shoot it on, but prioritize dialogue. You should prioritize tell telling a good story. So if you could tell a story with no dialogue, that's fine too.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Aaron Sorkin, lots and lots of dialogue. Yeah. Lots of other writers. No dialogue. I think the movie Drive, have you seen Drive?Michael Jamin:Loved it. Very fluff. Yeah.Phil Hudson:Blew my, blew my mind. Dude. Barely talks. Barely talks. Yeah. But it's so emotive and so expressive and it's just so masterfully shot. Yeah. Yeah. So you're saying if it calls for it or if that's your style, and maybe that will develop your style. I think in film school, it was an indie film school that I went to, and they focused a lot on that. It's like what assets and resources do you have? And utilize the tools that you have to make what you can. Yeah. That might be a park bench. And you've talked about that as an example in the webinar you did.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Phil Hudson:Park bench. Two people talking could be boring. Put it in the living room. It's one of the greatest shows ever made.Michael Jamin:Yeah. All in the family, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yep.Phil Hudson:Cool. All right. This is another one of those dub boy, d a u boy. B o y I. Sorry, I slotted that. All right. Your recommendation for new writers to be good or contribute in a writer's room?Michael Jamin:What's my recommendation? Yeah,Well just know that you're not getting paid what the more senior writers are getting paid. And so, God, I was just listening to, who was I listening to? Saying the same exact thing, which is relax. I mean, you're a new writer. Just relax, soak up, learn, be a sponge. Don't feel like you have to argue, don't feel like you have to contribute too much. Y you're Jo, you're going to be white knuckling it the first several months, if not seasoned, because you're going to be in way over your head. So just absorb, don't feel compelled that you have to contribute as much as everybody else. My feeling, because just talking to hear yourself talk is not helpful to the rest of us.Phil Hudson:I was talking to a friend who is a staff writer on his first season, and he said, I asked him how it went and asked him if he was nervous to talk. And he's like, what I found interesting is I knew better than to talk very much only when I had a good idea, but I didn't feel that the people just above him, the story editor and senior story editor were talking enough, they were not contributing enough. Oh,Michael Jamin:They were not.Phil Hudson:And feedback from the showrunner, he said, was that the showrunner agreed that those people were not carrying their weight. So at what point, what's the transition point? At what point do you feel like you should be contributing more?Michael Jamin:And it's really hard to know. I mean, that's why it's so important. AndPhil Hudson:Maybe we should clarify for people too. What are those levels, right? Because it's story, it's staff writer, story editor, senior story editor,Michael Jamin:No, executive storyPhil Hudson:Editor. Executive story editor. And then it's was itMichael Jamin:ScriptPhil Hudson:Co-producer,Michael Jamin:Producer,Phil Hudson:Producer. Go ahead.Michael Jamin:Super. Then supervising producer, then co-executive producer, then executive producer. And so the higher up you go, the more you're expected to contribute. And that's why in the beginning, I didn't even know what a good pitch was. I didn't know what a good pitch was versus a bad pitch. The more you learn, the more, yeah. I mean, that's one, when we talk about it in the course, I think one of the valuable parts of the course is hopefully when you go through it, is you get a sense of what a good idea is and what's what story structure is. So you should know you damn well should be known at the end of the course. What constitutes a good pitch? What does this be? What should that beat be? What is a story? How does a story unfold? How does the scene unfold? This is all important stuff that, so you're not just throwing out ideas. I think a lot of problems, Hey, what if, well, we're not pitching, we're not playing. What if right now we're actually trying to break the story. And we're not free reigning right now. Now we're further down the road.Phil Hudson:Just a note, note on the value of that segment about knowing what a good idea is this season in the Tacoma FD writer's room, when I was sitting there, I'm trying not to talk other than I'm answering a question or providing research, because that's kind of my role. And I remember you were all trying to figure out what are we going to do for the cold open of this episode? And you were thinking of an interesting reason to get our firefighters there. And for whatever reason, this story popped in with my friend had a roommate who jabbed an EpiPen into his leg backwards, and it hooked into his thumb, but he was super drunk, and so firefighters had to come. And I just pitched that and I just remember everyone be like, that'll work. And they wrote it up and that was the working cold open. And it changed and it didn't work because they did something very similar later. But I was like, oh, perfect. That was a good idea. Proper time to bring it up. And it worked like that, right? Then that came from your course.Michael Jamin:Oh good. Yeah.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Cause I wouldn't have pitched anything. First of all, you say don't talk if you're an assistant, but secondly, I did. I knew it was a good pitch because of your course, and that's why I opened my mouth and it was on the board for a week. So yeah. Yeah. Made me feel warm and fuzzy.Michael Jamin:Absolutely.Phil Hudson:Awesome. Lorenzo, can you name a couple of screenwriters you respect and you think could be a good source of technical mastery?Michael Jamin:Well, John Hughes, I, I don't know him personally or, I dunno if this person talking about people I know personally. I mean, I love John Hughes. The Breakfast Club is a play, is a stage play, but it was a movie, but it feels like a stage play. So it very talky and wonderful and so authentic. And it really felt, he remembered what it was like to be a teenager.Phil Hudson:All of his movies capture that time. I mean, it's a John Hughes movie. You know what it is when it's coming up becauseMichael Jamin:Yeah. So is there anybody better than him? That's my opinion. No, but that's the style of writing that I like. So Sure.Phil Hudson:Michael Scott, and I think, I don't know if you want to bring this up, but occasionally when you do the webinar, you will give away a free access, a free seat in your course. Lifetime access.Michael Jamin:Yeah, that's a good reason to show up.Phil Hudson:Michael Scott won. Michael Scott was our winner. Oh,Michael Jamin:That's right. He won. Yeah.Phil Hudson:Yeah. So Michael Scott said, do you recommend attending PGA West Producers Guild of America events and networking with showrunners? I think he might mean wga a West.Michael Jamin:Yeah. I've never been to a PGA Producer's Guild event. I don't even know what kind of events they have. And show runner goPhil Hudson:The West, I think means he, he's means wga a, but Michael, I'm sorry. I've forgot that wrong.Michael Jamin:Well, I would, I'd go, but I wouldn't go for a net. I wouldn't go to network. Net networking is gross. People smell it a mile away. I say network with people at your own level, which might be which, whatever level you're at, that's who you network with. Don't network. You don't have to kiss the ass of the show of some showrunner. He or she will smell it a mile away network with people at your own because they rise up. They'll rise up as assistants become whatever, agents, managers, writers, that's your friend group. That's your circle.Phil Hudson:Yeah. I've talked in the past about the Writer's Guild of America Foundation who puts on these events. They have this thing called the Golden Ticket. And when I first moved here, that was what I did. I paid the money for that, and it got me a front row seat at all of these events. And what that allowed me to do was just have a better learning experience and the opportunity to have conversations with these people if I wanted to. And I remember I went to the WGA in Hollywood, and I was riding the elevator up, and I wrote up with John August, and I had met him at Sundance where I was doing translation work. So I was like, oh, hey John. And he was like, oh, hey. And I was like, yeah, I was the Sundance translator. He was like, oh yeah, that's right.And he was like, you enjoying la? And I was like, yeah. And that's all I said to him. And it's cause it just wasn't the right time to attack the guy who's had to go talk on stage and read the room. I understood dynamics, just acknowledge I knew who he was and we'd met before. That was it. That was the most networking I did at any of those events outside of the other people who had paid for the golden ticket and because we were talking to each other every week and sitting there and going to the festival that they put on, I met a lot more people through doing those things.Michael Jamin:That's your net. That's networking. It's not gross. It's not, Hey, what can you do for me? Hey, let's just chat. Yeah. We have something in common.Phil Hudson:Cool. Danny Casone, I'm probably messing that up. How do you develop better writing skills and how do you find someone to bounce your ideas off of?Michael Jamin:Well, the one thing we have in our course is a private Facebook group, and those people trade scripts, and they've all been through my course, so they have some degree of knowledge. So that's a great way to do it. But what was the first part? How do youPhil Hudson:Develop better writing skills?Michael Jamin:Oh yeah. You take classes. That's how you do it. You learn. I How are you expected to do it? How are you expected to do it on your own when you don't know? Yeah. Read. That's why you take a course.Phil Hudson:Read, read and apply. That's the other thing is you can get too caught up in learning how to do something. And that is a form of procrastination because you're not sitting down to execute. You're going to learn a lot more by executing and reading it and realizing how bad it is than you would learning and learning and learning and not sitting down and just doing the work. So yeah, don't procrastinate, just do the work and you'll learn a ton. But as far as ideas, like you said, it's the private Facebook group or the people you're around, all those things. Someone else asked in here, although I'm not a member of the course, can I sign up for the private Facebook group as long as I'm carrying my weight and contributing,Michael Jamin:No, sorry. Sorry.Phil Hudson:You got a lot of those requests.Michael Jamin:Sorry. Because that's just the role to get in. It's like the people who put skin in the game, they've been to the lessons, they're contributing with their knowledge with what they've learned. It's not social hour. It's like it's class. So it's like saying, Hey, can I just go to med school and contribute? Well, no, you're either in or you're out. Yeah.Phil Hudson:The And the quality of every interaction in that group is better because everyone is coming at it from the same foundation.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah. I do think they're very serious. I do think the quality of the conversations in that private Facebook group, cause I see it, the comments and I believe comments, it's very high. It's much higher than, say, way higher than Reddit, way higher than some public Facebook group. It's way, hi. It's just higher.Phil Hudson:One example I'll give on that, A friend of mine was like, you got to join this Facebook group. It's awesome. And I joined and I was just trying to introduce myself. I was like, Hey, I'm Phil. I'm new the group. I just wanted to share this thing that I heard about Steve Spielberg said that the opening shot of every film is a metaphor for the whole thing. And I got berated by 50 people saying, I thought everybody knew that this is, what do you mean you're just learning? And I was like, you guys are dicks. I'm out. And I just left the group because I was like, you are not my people and I do not want to be in here with you.Michael Jamin:Yeah, there's a people, yeah, exactly. People on social media could be dicks and I don't see any of that going on. Maybe because I think they know. I'll kick 'em out if I see thatPhil Hudson:You will. Another on that note. So one thing you and I have to do for the course is there's this whole thing that you did with me, which is coming up with an idea, breaking an idea, writing the idea, and getting a pilot. And it was a pilot episode of Tacoma fd, and we still have to go over that final script because someone was like, Uhland. And the group was like, Hey, Phil, did you guys ever, did you finish it? I was like, I did. I need a, it's printed. I just need to send it to Michael so he can give me notes.Michael Jamin:Yeah, we'll do that'll talk.Phil Hudson:And he was like, well, I was just revisiting and I always thought this be this moment at the end of your act too. And I was like, dang, that's better than what I wrote. And then he was like, then maybe this is how the Eddie comes back. I was like, dang it, that's better than what I wrote. Right? This is just, they're thinking about story at the same way. And I was like, I learned some valuable things off of those two comments, and he hasn't even read the script.Michael Jamin:So yeah, it's a good group.Phil Hudson:Yeah. All right. Manola films, can you please talk about the show Bible? What is a show bible and do we need 'em, I think is the ultimate question.Michael Jamin:No, I don't think you need, no. The show Bible, when we work on a show is the writer assistant or the S script supervisor will assemble the episodes that we've shot and put it together and for whatever reason, whoever needs to look at it. I'm like, who wants to look at this? When you're pitching, you think you need a show, Bob, because you want to sell a show, but you're not going to sell a show. So what are you worried about? Your writing sample? Your script is a writing sample. It's a calling card. It's for you to get more work. Why put the, you're not going to, what are you going to do with the Bible not pitching anybody? And if you do pitch someone and they want a Bible, fine, they'll put together a Bible. But that's not what the point of your main goal right now is to have a killer script as a writing sample. That's hard enough. Forget about a Bible.Phil Hudson:There's another writer who's pretty active on TikTok and social media, and he was talking about a Bible, and I asked him, I was like, what do you think the value of the show Bible is? Because I've heard I shouldn't need one. He's like, well, you got to know where your story's going. So when you pitch, you can answer the question, what's where are we going? What's going on? So understand that much about it if you're in the opportunity to sell it. But he wasn't advocating for what I think the pros and the experts are referring to as a bi bible, which is this character and his backstory and his arc through seasons one through 10. And this is the, it's not the detailed, it's just know where you're going with your story. There are also some really interesting Bibles story, Bibles that are available online that I won't link to because they're not our ip. They're not something that you want to link out to, but you can search for 'em and find them. That again, is literally what you said. It's something that an assistant does for the show.Michael Jamin:SoPhil Hudson:Monica, and by the way, it's to help the writers, the new staff writers. We had new writers on Tacoma FD this season, and they were asking me for that, and we didn't have a Bible, and so I had to send 'em all the scripts and they had to read through all the scripts instead of just reading a bible to understand what stories have been told, who the charactersMichael Jamin:Are. They should be reading the scripts anyway. They should. That's the thing. There youPhil Hudson:Go. Yeah. Okay. I'm putting that on you guys. If you're listening. Sorry, you didn't complain when I sent you the script. Yeah. Monica B, what about if you work in a different area of Hollywood, for example, does that experience help when you are ready to pitch a script?Michael Jamin:No. No, it doesn't. I mean, it's great that you're working in Hollywood. Maybe you can make some connections, but if you are working in post and you don't want to, if you want to be a screenwriter, just know not where we, that's not the bullpen. That's not where we're pulling talent from. You're close, the closer you can get physically to the job you want, the better. So you're getting close, but eventually you want to get in on the production side, you want to get closer to the writers. It's good that you have that job, but it's not a transferrable skill.Phil Hudson:I've turned down those jobs because it's not the direction I want to go. Okay.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Phil Hudson:So Flyboy 2 43 is starting out writing as a hobby part of the way to become a professional in your spare time if you're at the bottom.Michael Jamin:Yeah, you should be writing. Yeah. If you enjoy writing, you for sure if you like writing, but if you don't like writing, if you're not writing as a hobby, then what makes you think you're going to like it as a profession?Phil Hudson:Philip Mullings Jr. Can you use scripts that you've written on a show as a staff writer in your portfolio?Michael Jamin:Well, I don't have a portfolio. None of us have a portfolio. We just have writing. We have scripts that we've written. So if you were creditPhil Hudson:Staff, right, you have a credit that your agent's putting out there.Michael Jamin:Yeah. But if you were, say you were on a let's staff writer on floppy in the Boys on the Disney Channel, and you wrote a script, fantastic. But if you're trying to get work on some other show, a sophisticated adult show you're floppy in the boys script that was produced is not going to be of any service. So you know, have to have a writing sample that will match the tone of the show you want to work on.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Got it. Alex Zen Draw comics. What do screenwriters do when they're having health problems that may hinder their writing pursuits?Michael Jamin:Well, what are you going to do? I mean, if your health comes first, what are you going to do? You have to be healthy enough to write and healthy enough to work. So that's a problem. What do you do? You know, focus on getting healthy.Phil Hudson:I wanted to include this one because it's an area we haven't talked much about, which may be like the W G A health benefits and some of those benefits that you get from being in the guild. I can tell you, as someone who previously held an insurance license, disability insurance is probably a good idea for most people, which is if you are unable to perform your work for which you get paid, you can get a percentage of that pay. Now, that is not an endorsement for anybody or anything, but it is something to consider for every adult. If I get a hand, if I get handicapped or something, how am I going to pay my bills?Michael Jamin:Yeah. It's just very hard to prove disability if you're a writer, because as long as you have a functioning brain, you can still write. So disability's easier if you're working on a construction because you can't, how are you going to climb a ladder? But if you're hard to prove if you're a writer,Phil Hudson:Interesting. As far as the WGA benefits go for the health plan, I mean, what does that look like? And I think, correct me if I'm wrong, but you have to earn a certain number of points or pay a certain amount into the Guild Fund every year to maintain your benefits.Michael Jamin:The health benefits being in the Writer's Guild gets you health insurance as well as pension, but you have to earn a certain number of points every year to continue qualifying for them.Phil Hudson:And if you don't qualify, is that like a Cobra situation where you're paying out of pocket for those benefits or you get youMichael Jamin:Accrue points so you have a certain, the more you work, the more points, and then if you're unemployed for a year, usually you just draw this point bank that you have and that'll deplete itself after pretty quickly depending on how long you've, your history is. And then after that, you can have a COBRA situation where you get to pay out of pocket,Phil Hudson:Which is expensive. Yeah, but prioritize your health. That's something I'm learning the older I get, especially having children now and people who rely on me is your health is the number one thing, because without it, you cannot provide for your family. You cannot do anything. So Right. Make time for that. All right, Peter Cat, this feels very Russian. Peter, p i e t e r k e t e l a a R. I apologize to everybody for my poor phonetics. What kind of stock do you put in a blacklist score of eight for a pilot in hand already?Michael Jamin:I have no idea what an eight means or what, I barely know what the blacklist is, so I'm going to say, what kind of stock do I put in that zero considering I don't even know the question.Phil Hudson:I knew that was going to be the answer to the question, which is why I included it. Because for those of us who are what we call pre WGA people trying to break into the industry, we put a lot of stock in the blacklist and what that means. But I had a volunteer at Sundance that I met years ago. She had a script that one was on the blacklist, and she had meetings about it, and then she rewrote the whole thing and changed it all up and spent two years focusing on that script instead of walking away from it and working on another good piece of material. And a lot of my conversations were pitching things to her because of your course that ultimately she was like, well, that was in my first draft. That was in my first draft. And she's just getting lots of bad feedback. So the points don't matter. The listing can get you meetings with people, but ultimately you still got to be able to put in the work, and you have to have multiple samplesMichael Jamin:Because multiple samplesPhil Hudson:That might get you into a room, but what else do you got?Michael Jamin:You tell me you got an eight or whatever, or 108 on blacklist. I don't really care. Let me just read the script. I'll decide whether I think the script is good or not. I get to decide that and whoever, whoever's reading it gets to decide. So yeah, it's not like, oh, this person's got an eight right this way. No, I don't care whether you got a zero. If it's I read it, I decide.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Another question from Peter, this was from the webinar where you talked about networking should be at your level or beneath you, right? Because yeah, and we talkedMichael Jamin:About this. That's why I feel this episode. It's my opinion.Phil Hudson:What should my beneath me look like?Michael Jamin:Oh, well, I mean, it's anyone, it's, I mean, I don't know. ThisPhil Hudson:Might be two, taking two as too. So lemme just throw the other one out. What is something that is beneath me? What is something I shouldn't spend my time doing?Michael Jamin:Well, right. Nothing's beneath you. So if your neighbor is saying, Hey, I want to shoot a movie in my backyard, sure, I'll do it. I'll help if I'm just above that level. Yeah, not, it's like, because anybody who's showing any kind of ambition, who's just trying a student at a film school, whatever, get involved in them. If they're going to get out of film school, if they want to stay in the industry, they'll stay in the industry and then they'll work their way up and then you'll be right there with them because you're helping them under their projects. And maybe they'll help you on theirs. That's your class, that's your graduating class. So is anything beneath you? No. As long as you have the time to do it, get involved these, because no one, it's so interesting when I talk about stories from my past, I think it's easy to, and I talk about, oh, this person I know this famous person, this or this successful person, that successful person at the time, they weren't successful. They were just people, and most of them didn't mount to anything in the industry, but some of them did. And that's, some of them did. That's it. So you know, get involved in everybody.Phil Hudson:But it goes back to the thing that's a common theme on our podcast, which is serve everybody. Give as much as you can without any expectation of receiving. Because if you're doing it because you, you're betting all your cards on that horse, everything you got on that horse to win the race, and then they fall out. Well, yeah, there's some manipulation and some self-serving that goes there, and intention has a smell, so we, you're going to stink. It's not good.Michael Jamin:I worked in a show called, I was a PA on a show called Hearts of Fire, which was Marky Post in John John Ritter, and also Billy Bob Thornton was on it actually. And it was a Linda Bloodworth Thomason show. And so there was two young staff writers in that show, which I kind of hung out with them a bit because they were closer to my age and they were, because they were staff writers. Maybe they're a story editor, I don't remember, but they're low. They were low and very low in the totem pole. And I hung out with them because they were closer to my level and they were nice to me. Those guys turned out to be David Cohan and Max Muk, who created Will and Grace years later. I didn't know that at the time. They were just a couple guys my age, a couple years older, and that who I didn't have to kiss anybody's butt, they, I was at pa, so they were definitely above my level, but still they weren't setting in the world on fire at thePhil Hudson:Time. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You could unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you, and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.Phil Hudson:All right. Taylor Cole, I have had a consistent career as a film producer. How can I best transition into television? I'm assuming television writing.Michael Jamin:Oh, yeah. With TV writing, how can you be? Basically, you're where everyone else is. My answer to you is the same as everyone else. Write scripts, show them. If you have a movie that did really well, give a hit movie that you should have no trouble. You should, people fi, if you made a movie that no one saw, you're going to have a problem. If you made a hit movie where there a breakout at Sundance, people are going to find you. People are going to find you. And that's how I've been doing the whole webinar. I don't want to say too much because I, I've, I've coming up, I want to talk about examples of this, about people who breakout people and how they broke out. And I'm going to talk more about it. And so sign up for one of my webinars that michaeljamin.com/webinar. But, cause I'm going to talk about this for about an hour, but how can you, my advice to you is the same as everyone else. I hope you're, you're following me everywhere and just soaking it up because it's no different for you.Phil Hudson:Yeah, there you go. Shane Gamble. I live in New York City. Do you think it is better to move to LA or should I focus on the network I've currently built here?Michael Jamin:Where's Hollywood? And Hollywood is in la? There is some, obviously there's theater, there's probably more theater in New York than it is in LA that interests you. In the end, you're probably going to have to come out to Hollywood. There's not much of a network out there. This is where it is. I'm from New York. I moved out here because this is where Hollywood is, so yeah.Phil Hudson:Yep. Now there's writing there too, but if you don't have the network there in the writing space,Michael Jamin:Some shows are shot there. But the writing, most of the time the writing's done here. 30 Rock was shot and written in New York, but that's only because Tina Fay didn't want to leave New York. Everybody else does it here.Phil Hudson:Yeah.Michael Jamin:So you might get a job. Let's say you've got a job in New York writing on 30 Rock. Great. How are you going to make a career? Because that show is done. It's not on the air anymore.Phil Hudson:Good point, right? Ariba, how do I work through the problem of getting stuck between my script? Any exercises that I could help work through that I'm currently writing a short film and I find myself stuck midway.Michael Jamin:You don't understand story structure. You didn't break your story cro correctly, which is why you're stuck, which is why you don't know what your characters are going to do. You don't know what to do it. So I don't have any quick fixes for you. I could teach you story structure. I could teach you, which is what the course is. No, I don't have a tip. I teach, I teach you how to become a writer. There's no tips. It's not a tip situation.Phil Hudson:And the course is currently closed. Maybe it's not. When this comes up, probably will be. But the course is currently closed and we open it up once a month at this point for people who want to join. So yeah, best way to know about when is to sign up for the webinars because there's some specials in the webinar and you have a chance to win the course. But also, typically I can not going to promise that every time. I don't want to speak for you, Michael, but yeah, that is typically the best way to find out when the course is going to reopen.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah. But yes, unfortunately I don't have any tips. I don't have any exercises. I, I'm going to teach you how to become a writer. I, I'm going to teach you how to write basically if you want, want to take the course.Phil Hudson:One of our really early episodes of the podcast talked about writer's block and about how, sorry, you're a professional and you talked about that recently on another webinar as well. So that's some place to look for some advice on this as well, is work through it, make it happen. But you got to learn the story structure.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Phil Hudson:Cool. K M C, if I'm writing an entire series, are the accumulation of episodes enough or should I spread out to other writings too?Michael Jamin:Why we write an entire series? That's first question.Phil Hudson:That is advice.Michael Jamin:You got to write one scriptPhil Hudson:That is advice people get, Michael, is you should write an entire series.Michael Jamin:No, write one script. Write one episode that just killer. Write one. Just one. A lot of times, and we were talking, we talked about this privately where someone wrote an entire series and you read it and you're go, no, you just basically took the contents of your pilot and script and spaced it off on 10 episodes. So you have structure 10 episodes of they No Structures. They have 10 episodes of garbage, of they have 10 episodes of Boring when they should have just made one episode. That was great.Phil Hudson:Their intuition for what an entire series is was literally a pilot and everything else was just pipe and unnecessary, confusing, meandering and a lot of, I think one of the early critiques I got in writing, and I've heard many times and felt many times for other people, is a lot of things happening, but no one's doing anything.Michael Jamin:Yeah, yeah. You know, don't want your writing to be that. Learn. There's studies, study your screenwriting. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. So study what a story is. Oh,Phil Hudson:So write a good poem becauseMichael Jamin:If you had known what a story is, if that person had known what a story is, they wouldn't have done that. They wouldn't have wasted all that time.Phil Hudson:Well, I gave him the notes and at the end he's like, you, because I'd only read the pilot and I was like, well, this might be this and this is kind of how structure, what your pilot would be. He's like, you just described my full season. I was like, yeah, man. Yeah. SorryMichael Jamin:Dude. Yeah. Sorry. You screwed up. Yeah.Phil Hudson:Aaron Brown. What are your favorite examples of screenplays We should read?Michael Jamin:Anything you should read. Good. You should read bad. You should read if it's good. You got a stack on screen, please?Phil Hudson:Yeah. I've got Ladybird ready, player one, aliens, which is one of the most popular scripts I think people are recommended to read. James Cameron Unforgiven, which is the script that famously sat inside of blanking on his name.Michael Jamin:Was it Clint Eastwood?Phil Hudson:Clint Eastwood, yeah. Sat, he bought it, put it in his desk, and then waited, I think like 20 years till he was old enough to play the part. And one in Oscar one multiple Oscars. I got Drive, which we talked about recently. This is one of my favorite scripts, Armageddon, which was a big block buster, but just a bunch of scripts that I think were stood out. But I think when Oscar season comes out, the studios release their nominated scripts and you can find 'em publicly. So that's a great place to go to find really good stuff. These are what the industry says are the best scripts right now.Michael Jamin:And you can also go to the Writer's Guild in West Hollywood, or actually it's HollywoodPhil Hudson:Fairfax. Yeah, li It's in Hollywood. Fairfax. Yeah.Michael Jamin:They have a public library. You don't have to be a member, you have to make an an appointment. That's it. And you can read for free a bunch of scripts. Read good ones, read bad ones. If you read a bad one, why don't I like this? And don't say it because it's boring. No. What exactly do you not like about this? If you see a good one, why do you want, what do you like about this script? Why do you want to turn the page? What makes you want to and be specific, not because it's compelling, say it. No, because what about it? It makes you want to turn the page and so you can learn from good or bad.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Awesome. We got a few more questions here and then we'll wrap it up. Michael. Yeah. Kaya, Kaya link, again, probably ruining your name. I apologize. How long should these sample scripts be? Wait, how long should a sample sample be?Michael Jamin:If you're writing a half hour or an hour long, it should be match, whatever. If you're a drama writer, it's going to be an hourPhil Hudson:There. There's a note at the back end of this. It says, feature, should I be writing fe? I'm putting this together fe Should I be writing features every time or should I try TV scripts and all those different things.Michael Jamin:I think you should write whatever you want to write, whatever kind of writer you want to be. Personally, I think you'll learn more from being a television writer than you'll. You'll learn more in a year than you would learn in 10 years. Writing features just because of you're learning. You're working alongside other writers who are experienced. It's like, I don't even know why you wouldn't want to be a TV writer first and then move into feature writing if that interests you. But you'll learn so much from working aside alongside professional writers. There's so much to be gained from that. Whereas if you're working in features home alone, good luck. Good luck.Phil Hudson:On that note too, the industry is focused on TV right now, not features, and they're really a handful of people writing features. Yeah. It's not to say you can't be that, and there's always the indie feature side of things that you can do to write, but I mean, effectively, this is the same advice you gave on TikTok recently on that clip you did, right? Starting television and then move, expandMichael Jamin:Out. I think so, yeah.Phil Hudson:And Michael's got a lot of great stuff. We talked about it before, but go check about @MichaelJaminWriter on TikTok and Instagram and Facebook and Twitter and everywhere. Yeah. All right. Gianna Armin trout. How should you study other TV shows to learn story structure, breaking a story, et cetera? What should I be looking for when I'm watching other shows?Michael Jamin:Yeah, I, and that's exactly what the course goes into. I mean, the problem is if you want to just watch, go ahead. Watch as much as you can, but what you're not going to know what to look for, you're not going to know. That's the problem. And the same thing with reading. I think it's, you're just probably not going to know. And so I explained in the course, this is what you need to be looking for. These are the moments, these are the act breaks. These are the middle of two, this is the top of three. This is what you need to be looking for. These are the patterns you're going to see in smartly written indie movies, smartly written blockbusters and smartly written foreign films. And they all have a lot in common. And just because you and television as well, and just because you think, well, I don't want to learn story structure because that's formulaic and it's not formulaic. These are just things that a good story has. These are just things they have in common. SoPhil Hudson:When I was in film school, we were given the task of picking whatever show we were going to write a spec episode of, and then getting a stopwatch out and then timing the scenes. That seems logical, but ultimately what you don't realize is that's what the editing is. That's not necessarily what the script was and what it was written as. Yeah. And yeah, it's not hitting the important points, which is what beat should I be hitting here? How soon do they introduce this information?Michael Jamin:And I don't even get that. What are you going to do? You're going to write with your stopwatch next to you, or you're going to write and you go, oh, this is page three. This better happen. What do you mean? How are you supposed to make that work?Phil Hudson:That's a lot of screenwriting advice. Michael, this page on pageMichael Jamin:Three, this happened, I don'tPhil Hudson:Understand it. By page 10, this needs to happen at the end of a page 25, this moment should happen. And page 45, this should have page 60. This should happen, right? That's traditional, open, most screenwriting books. And IMichael Jamin:Don't get that. If you were to write a story, whether it's for television or just a story, and like I say, this is what happens. You need to have at the bottom of act one, if now, if you're bottom act one is on page 15 or 17, does it really matter? Does it really matter? What difference does it make it? You're off by page and a half. What the, who cares? And you could always cut it a little bit. If I don't, I don't know. I just don't approach writing that way. It's like it's a story. Whether you want to put the story on a television or on a stage or write it in a book is, and you get to decide whether you want it to happen on 19 or 17, what difference does it make? Really? What difference does it make?Phil Hudson:There you go. Hi, waha Henry are pitch decks, the new calling card. I've been asked to submit pitch decks instead of a script.Michael Jamin:Who asking? Who's asking you these? I want to know. I want names. Who's asking?Phil Hudson:My experience in Hollywood is that they are the people who are not actually producers.Michael Jamin:There is the problem. I want to know if you're a good writer first, if I'm going to get into business with you for anything, whether I'm going to finance your movie, and I don't finance movies, but that or staff you on a show, I want to know, can you write, can you tell a good story? That's the first thing. And if you can't, I don't really care what your pitch deck looks like.Phil Hudson:I had done some work for a production company out here, and the producers were like, well, we'd love to read what you have. And I was going to send my script. And they're like, do you have a story bible? This goes back to the earlier question. I said, I don't, do you have an example of what story Bible you want to say? This was years ago before I realized kind of your advice on this. And they sent me, this is one we think is really good, and it was a pitch deck. That was what piqued their interest. And then they read the script and it's like, these people are just trying to make a dime. They're not necessarily trying to put out the best content that they can, and they're intermediaries and they're not the guy with the overall deal at a studio that can just walk in and present what they want to make.Michael Jamin:Yeah, justPhil Hudson:It's aMichael Jamin:Different level. I don't understand. It's all smoke and mirrors, I think, whoa, the picture that looks great. Really. Are you trying to get hired as a writer or not? Yeah, I'm not a graphic artist.Phil Hudson:Generation X. How can you find someone to read your work who has experience and won't steal your idea?Michael Jamin:Well, where do I be doing this?Phil Hudson:Two notes on that one. I know, right? That's why I brought it. Yeah, that's why I put it in here.Michael Jamin:Where do you begin? Well, your agent will submit it and we'll only submit it to reputable places. Then the question is, well, how do you get an agent? And that'll be talking about that on all my webinars I got, I'll talk about it again at some point. How do you worried about They want to steal your idea? Well, who you're giving it to. Don't give it to some clown at Starbucks. What was the other question?Phil Hudson:How do you get someone with experience to read your work? Oh,Michael Jamin:How do you get someone to experience? Well, you have to bring more to the table. Why? Why would they, like I have experience, why would I want to read your work? If I'm staffing for a TV show, I will go out to agents and managers. Give me the, I'm not going to, I don't go to people off the street. Yeah. I don't hire people off the street, so don't give me your work. Cause I'm not going to hire you. I'll get it from an agent. Well, how do you get an agent? That's a different question. Yeah, but it's not, you don't get people like me to read your work. You. No, you don't. I mean,Phil Hudson:I think this fall, I will have known Michael for 10 years. I've asked him to read maybe three things.Michael Jamin:Yeah, it's a big deal. It's a big deal to get somebody to read again. You're telling him to sit down. Somebody said that to me on DM Me. It's like, Hey, would you mind reading my screenplay? Would I mind giving up my Saturday afternoon sitting down, reading your thing, coming up with notes, getting on the phone with you, deliver my notes? What if I said to my dentist, Hey, my two hurts. Would you mind taking a look at it? My dentist say, no, not a problem. Not at all. Go call my office. Make an appointment. Bring your insurance card and your credit card for the deductible. That's what he would say. Yeah, it's business. It's professional that. What do you expect? No.Phil Hudson:Michael kindly offered to read something and I sent him the first script I wrote, and he referred to it as a Frankenstein. And I was like, oh my gosh, I know nothing. And this was five years into studying on my own. And I didn't send you anything else to read until it was a spec I wrote in film school. So that was probably three years later. And then the last thing I sent you to read was just last year. And that was the first good thing. That was the first thing. And your note on the second thing is, I can tell you're a competent writer and you can capture the voice of the show, but all your other notes were about my structure. It still wasn't there.Michael Jamin:And then the third piece was you're like, okay, now you're finally getting it right. Yeah. Now you're finally getting it.Phil Hudson:Yeah. And I consider myself egotistically to be a smart guy, but it really took off when Michael put his course together for me. And I'm your biggest advocate for that thing. All right. Danny Casone again. Have you met Mike Judge and Mark Marinn? They're geniuses, by the way.Michael Jamin:I've worked side by side with both of them. Mark more so than Mike, because I was the showrunner of Mark's Maron show on i c. So we worked side by side for four years. Mike, a little bit less, but I wrote on King of the Hill and Beaver and Butthead and Beaver was in Butthead he would send us, well, we write the scripts, and then he would send us which videos he wanted to make fun of. And so we would watch those. Then we'd go to the booth with him, we'd watch it over his shoulder, we'd pitch jokes, and then he would run into the booth and do the voices and kind of change, do it the way he wanted to do it. But yeah, but they're both great guys. Both of them are great.Phil Hudson:There you go. All right. Final questions. There's two, but one of them is like eight questions because it's the same question we get every single time you do a q and a or anything else. Same question. So I'm going to read two. First one, amalgamation of things. Should I use a script consultant? What are your opinions about people who call themselves professional readers, who give notes? Can you recommend a good script reading service? And how much should I person pay for that service? Do you have any readers or reader services to recommend any or to avoid?Michael Jamin:Okay. Woo. I would avoid anything called a service. Anything. If you can find a retired screenwriter or a screenwriter who has time on their hands and go check out their imdp, pay I mdb paid, check out their credits, read their work. If you could find something like that, and there are people that exist, those are the ones you want to pay and pay them. Whatever they ask, the more experience they have, pay them more. I personally, I would rather find someone with more and more experience and pay them more. If they want double because they have, they've been doing for 20 years, I'll pay double because skimping just doesn't help you. I'd pay. Their expertise is worth every penny. That's what I would say with these services, you're finding people, many of them just hiring people, aspiring writers with no more credits or than you do, no more experience than you have. And they're giving you notes and you're paying for it, and they're completely unqualified to tell you anything. They read their training brochure and that's it. And that's not how it works. A man. Now, what a else do you have to say?Phil Hudson:No, I was just going to say, I think one of the things you can think about too, to get a little tell that I just discovered this week, so I mentioned that I was asked to sign on to help a screen, a Sundance project, because of my experience with Sundance. And I think that it helps them think they're going to get a little bit ahead with having a couple other alumni and fellows on that roster. And they were going to put me in as a script consultant. I went to go see what that would look like on imdb. And right there in that same thread, it's like script doctors and script consultants go under miscellaneous crew, not writers.Michael Jamin:And it isPhil Hudson:The bottom. That's the same place where I put my writer's assistant, my writer's PR credit down there, because it's just not a value. It doesn't do anything in those. People may get hired to do work at a studio level, but I wouldn't hire them to do that on my script. You need to doMichael Jamin:That job. I dunno if they get hired a studio level.Phil Hudson:I don't knowMichael Jamin:If that's a thing.Phil Hudson:So supposedly it's a thing, but you need to know how to write. And so find a writer to give you the feedback or find the writing and how to write to give you feedback. And that's again, what your private Facebook group does and what your course does for people.Michael Jamin:Find a screenwriter who has time on their hand. Maybe they're supplementing their income, but they have good credits and they know they've worked. Don't find someone who's a professional consultant reader or whatever. I would stay away from that.Phil Hudson:And last question, which is similar vein, but I think on a high note, BW asked, what does Michael think of submitting scripts to the Academy? Screenwriting contest, which is the fellows, the Nichols Fellowship.Michael Jamin:Oh, okay. Is that, I didn't realize they were the one posted.Phil Hudson:The academy is the Nichols Fellowship.Michael Jamin:Okay. Do that one. That's a prestigious one. If you win, if you come in, if you place, eh, doesn't really help you.Phil Hudson:I've, I've heard of Quarterfinalists and semi-finalists getting some meetings off of that because it's so competitive. And the right, the that's read by actual professionals are donating their time to read and score those. Right. So it's It's definitely has more clout than anything else.Michael Jamin:But yeah, go for it. Also, go for, if you have any fellowships, do those. Sure. If they're industry things, yeah. Sometimes you can get involved in the studios offer various,Phil Hudson:But this goes back, but just this whole thing goes back to just be careful where you're spending your money as a writer. Because you can spend thousands of dollars submitting scripts to festivals thinking that award or that laurel on your website or on your script is going to help you get ahead and it will do nothing for you. And they're all, a lot of them, not all of them are money making machines to fund whatever they're doing at the festival. And I can tell you firsthand that that's the case. I'veMichael Jamin:Spoken about what I would do to break into the industry if I had to do it today. I'm going to do a few a webinar. I'm going to devote a webinar to that topic again probably in a few months. Cause I have other ones I've already planned out. We're going to do first. Get on them. It's free. It's free. That's all I got to say about that. MichaelJamin.com/webinar.Phil Hudson:Perfect. Alright, Michael, I think it's a good place to call it for the today. Anything else you want to add? Time of death,Michael Jamin:Phil.Phil Hudson:Time of death is.Michael Jamin:Time of deathPhil Hudson:Is 50 something minutes. It's a long one. Yeah. Great.Michael Jamin:All right, everyone.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Beyond that, some things you can do to support yourself in writing. So again, you don't have to sign up for Michael's course. Michael's giving a lot of stuff. If you don't have the money, you That's okay, Michael. I will. That's okay. Just make sure people are clear here because they may not know you are offering 0% financing effectively on all these things. If you want to sign up when registration's open, you can do a painful a three month or a six month plan because you said you want to make it as affordable to everyone as possible. There were some partners we had that were adding financing and we removed that option just to make sure. Yeah, it was fair to everybody who wanted to get in,Michael Jamin:And if you can't pay, that's fine. You can go, I got a free lesson. Go to michaeljamin.com/free. If you want to get on my free newsletter where I give out three free tips a week, MichaelJamin.com/watchlist. If you'd like to download some scripts that I've written and read them because they think it'll help you, and they probably will. You can also find those on my website. We got a ton of free stuff. We got this podcast. So yeah, just enjoy. Take it in, take it in. Did youPhil Hudson:Mention the watch list?Michael Jamin:I did. That's our new, yeah, Michael Gemma do com watchPhil Hudson:List. Oh, I was thinking about thinking about all this stuff was blanked for a second. All right. Well, everybody, thank you so much for your time and listening in. Hopefully this was helpful to you and make sure you sign up for the webinar where you do get an opportunity to ask Michael questions live and we dive into more detailed stuff, michael jamen.com/webinar Again for that.Michael Jamin:All right everyone, we'll see you on the next one. Thanks for listening. Bring your questions next time. Awesome.Phil Hudson:Thanks Phil.Michael Jamin:Then keep writing in. Thanks. Keep writing everyone. That's our motto. Phil came up with that. Keep writing. Yeah,Phil Hudson:One good thing. You're welcome guys.Michael Jamin:See ya.Phil Hudson:This has been an episode of Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you'd like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing, leaving your review, and sharing this podcast with someone who needs to hear today's subject. For free daily screenwriting tips, follow Michael on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @MichaelJaminWriter. You can follow me on Instagra

Missy Ozeas is a camera operator and energy healer who helps creatives work through their blocks and find their inner peace. If you're a creative struggling to sit down and do the work required to be a pro, you won't want to miss this podcast.Show NotesMissy's Website: https://www.missyenergyhealing.com/Missy's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/missyenergyhealing/Missy's YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZpw2lIbdJzRlnhcsdWSK4wMichael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAuto-Generated TranscriptsMissy Ozeas:I had never seen an a fiat ever in my entire life. And I was going to buy an electric car. And so I'd never seen a fiat. Then I went to go drive this fiat and it was like orange, right? And, and the next day I drove to work, I saw five orange fiats. Right?Michael Jamin:But that'sMissy Ozeas:Because it, my reticulate, ac reticular activating system said, oh, orange fiats are important. So my mind saw them where they didn't see them before. It's not that there were more, it's just that I saw them. Same them,Michael Jamin:Right? That's a really good example.Missy Ozeas:Yeah. So same with any of us. What do we wanna focus on? That's our choice that we can control.Michael Jamin:You're listening to Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin.Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome back to another episode of Screenwriters. Need to hear this. We got a special podcast today. They're all these special, but this is my friend Missy. And Missy. I'm gonna make you famous today.Missy Ozeas:Alright?Michael Jamin:That easy you do. All you do is come on the podcast. I'm make you famous. Hello and Missy, let me just tell you what I tell everyone what she's done. So she, I met her years ago. She's a camera operator. Well focus puller technically on just Shoot Me. But she was also working at the same time. Cause that was only like a two day week job. Same time working on friends where my wife was working as an actor. So you knew both of us separately at the same time, I believe, right? Missy?Missy Ozeas:Well, actually I did not work on friends or just shoot me .Michael Jamin:What are you talking about? Oh, different show we worked on. I thought it was on Just Shoot Me. We met. I,Missy Ozeas:No, I mean I was working during that time. I forget what I was on then, but I think I met you. I don't know how I met you. Michael Jamin:Go together. I thought it was just shoot me. Was it? Oh,Missy Ozeas:You know what I think it was was. Oh, Jenny Garth.Michael Jamin:You think it was what?Missy Ozeas:Jenny Garth?Michael Jamin:No, I wasn't working on. Oh wait. But that wasMissy Ozeas:Way later. Yeah. But that,Michael Jamin:But we were working on something before that together.Missy Ozeas:Yeah. Boy, this is called No Memory, but I think I met Cynthia first from preschool.Michael Jamin:No, no, no. You worked with her. No. Yes. What kind of introduction were you doing today? .Missy Ozeas:Oh my God.Michael Jamin:I dunno how we know each other.Missy Ozeas:We know each other a long time. Let's put it that way.Michael Jamin:And a lot of TV shows. Well, all right, let's just talk about your beginning. I know you went to USC film school, right? Yes. And then you, what, what was your intention when you went there?Missy Ozeas:Yeah, so I actually, I wanted to be you Michael. I wanted to be a writer. When I first, well, first I wanted to be a director, and then I wanted be a writer director. Then I just wanted to be a writer. And then I said, forget it. I, you know why? Because it's too solitary for me because I, I love for me Michael Jamin:Because TV writing is not solitary. But you didn't know anything at theMissy Ozeas:Time. I didn't know. Right. I only knew about feature writing. That's true. Right? I didn't know about a writer's room, cuz that looks fun. But yeah, so feature writing, that's what I wanted to do. And then I realized I couldn't, it wasn't my personality to sit at my computer and write by myself.Michael Jamin:You wrote a, I'm sure you wrote a lot of scripts in college, I mean, in film school, right?Missy Ozeas:Yeah. And one of my scripts was made into a senior project. So I think five get picked and then, yeah. One of my scripts got picked. So that was fun.Michael Jamin:And then you, I mean, in film school, like I always describe film school as basically a trade school. You learn all the trades, right? Yes. And so you learned, obviously all this about camera. You learned everything about cameras. But then, okay, so at what point did you decide I want to go into, you know, be behind the camera that way?Missy Ozeas:Well, okay, this funny thing is, I don't consider myself even to this day having been in camera forever. I'm not very technical, Kate. So don't tell anybody that , because I used to be in charge of like fixing the, like, camera goes down. I had to fix it. Right? I am not that. Okay. So in college I realized that was my thing I was most scared about. So I have a tendency to jump into the thing that I'm scared about, which actually it can help. So I was most scared about tech. So I decided to work in the camera stockroom where I would have to learn everything about a camera and lights and everything because I was afraid of it. So I did that. And then I got my hands into that. And then one day somebody had me work on their skin film and they said, Hey Missy, when that guy walks from here to here, move this camera lens from here to here. And I'm like, okay. So I did that. And weirdly, from that point on, people in school thought I was a camera assistant and they would call me to do all their assisting. And then once I graduated, I actually worked in development at Disney and Oh,Michael Jamin:That as Yeah, like an executive?Missy Ozeas:No, I was like just in the like entry level assisting Okay. A development head at Disney.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Missy Ozeas:And actually I hated it cuz I didn't like to pick up phones and wear a dress and I just did not like it. Yeah. And on the weekends, people who had graduated ahead of me started calling me like, oh, I have this music video, do you wanna come be my camera assistant? I was like, sure. And then they're like, we'll pay you a hundred bucks. And I was like, Ooh, a hundred bucks. Okay. So yeah. So I just remember one night I was like in a truck and we were pulling focus and we were crashing the truck into a fruit stand in the middle of the night. I was like, man, this is so fun. Wow. I wonder if I could do this for a living. And that's when I quit Disney and I decided to be a camera assistant.Michael Jamin:. What people don't realize and they shouldn't realize, it's like, so you have a, there's, there's various people who work literally behind the camera. And the the, what you did was pull focus, meaning you were li you had, I guess it's usually at a cable or now it's probably remote, but you are literally deciding what the, you know, the focus is, but somebody else is actually moving the camera. And sometimes you have a third person actually pushing. Yeah,Missy Ozeas:Yeah. For sure. Yes. If that's how we do it, . Yeah. Yeah.Michael Jamin:And so it's like, it's a, it is real, it's real teamwork. But, and so what were some of the jobs and I, okay, I know you started in features. What are some, what are the, some of the features and, and TV shows that everyone would've known that you worked on?Missy Ozeas:Okay. So you won't know any of the features I worked on cuz they're all really low budget. Okay. But the, so I worked on last man standing with Tama. I worked on the ranch with Ashton Kucher. Mm-Hmm. , I worked on baby daddy. Right On that one I worked on let's see, my wife and kids. Mm-Hmm. I worked on there's so many I can't even rememberMichael Jamin:So many. Cause we have a couple together. We don't apparently remember what they were, but but yeah, but then, and working on a multi-camera show, which is like shot on a sound stage, which we like friends, which I, or just shoot me, which . Apparently one of us worked on one of this. But, but yeah. And that's a, that's actually a much easier life as opposed to being on a single camera show. Don't you think? At least for you guys it wasMissy Ozeas:Oh yeah. And in fact that I just got lucky that I ended up meeting somebody who hired me to work in sitcoms Right. When I was wanting to get pregnant. So I actually by accident got into sitcoms and then I was like, whoa, wait, I don't have to build my camera every day. I don't have to travel all around the world. Which was great, but not if you're gonna have kids. Yeah. And you know, I build my camera one time and then it's like a family. You stay there for months and months mm-hmm. and butMichael Jamin:Even still, it's only a part-time job because when you're on a multi-camera show, you're working, let's say Thursday, Friday, right?Missy Ozeas:It is. But so I would always have two shows. So I would work four days a week and that was perfect. Like, I worked pregnant, both pregnancies, I have two kids. I work pregnant , I nursed on set. I did like everything. I don't know, I dunno how I did it. Michael Jamin:How did you get into the union? Because that's not an easy task. And what is, it's II right?Missy Ozeas:Yeah, it's local 600. And I got in, in those days you just have to have a hundred paid days. So I would collect call sheets and I, that's where I did a whole bunch of low budget.Michael Jamin:That's what you, that's all it is. A hundred paid days on any kind of shootMissy Ozeas:At. I don't know if it's that true anymore. This is a while ago . But that's all I hadMichael Jamin:To do. I think you just have, you would just show your call. It seems like call sheets could be easily forged, right?Missy Ozeas:Yeah. Well they somehow believed it. It, I I'm sure it's different now. I don't know. But that's all I had to do then.Michael Jamin:And then you did. And then what, okay, so one thing, you were around, you were around stars during rehearsals, you're around, I mean, what, you know, what did you see? How did you see your, from your end? I mean, I always thought when we were put on a show on for example, just shoot me or any, my multi-camera shows, we'd stage a show and then how the crew would react during the first day of rehearsal was everything. You know? And because you guys were seeing it for the first time in rehearsal and if you guys are laughing, it's good. And if you're not laughing, we have a problem.Missy Ozeas:Well, okay, so that's funny. So we had a show concept that that like, okay, so I've been on work so much in comedy, that takes me a lot to laugh.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Missy Ozeas:So, you know, you're pulling focus and you're right there, like you're eight feet away, 10 feet away from the actors. Like you're really close to them and you're watching them rehearse and you're doing everything. And then, you know, they'll do a joke and you're like, mm. You know, I didn't really laugh, but then the joke was like, oh, Missy laughed.Michael Jamin:Right?Missy Ozeas:Okay, that's, that must be funny. So . So that, that was good. But we would watch, you know, some of it, like Tim Allen, he's great. He will improv, he will try things. Right? Like that was kinda interesting to watch the actors and the writers together. Like to me, like how they navigate that, I guess how they navigate. I guess Tim could probably do it cuz he's a big star. But he will definitely say, oh that worked, that doesn't work. And then he'd make it funnier or they do something together, they collaborate. So that was always fun to watch how that happens behind the scenes.Michael Jamin:And then how, when, how would you get work? Like how does that work for a camera operator?Missy Ozeas:Well I got lucky because I worked with the very first DP basically that I worked on in sitcoms. Don Morgan. I worked with him my entire career.Michael Jamin:Wait, you didn't have any other dps youMissy Ozeas:Worked with? I did have other dps when there were off times or maybe my second show, but literally my entire career is thanks to Don Morgan.Michael Jamin:Right. And that's kind of how it goes, right? Us usually DP is director of photography and then they're, they're hired and then they, they basically pick their crew, right? Is that how it usually goes?Missy Ozeas:Yes. Yeah. And I just feel super thankful cuz he's like a, the nicest guy. He's very talented and he just kept working. I got lucky every time he worked I get to go with him. So,Michael Jamin:And then how would you get other jobs? They, you know, that, that weren't through him.Missy Ozeas:Because the sitcom world is so small and so if you think about camera, it's the same group like you probably saw in all your shows. It's kind of the same people. Yeah. So,Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah. But it's, you know, it's funny cuz you know, working on a multi-camera show is very different from a single camera show. Now, often people float in and out. I mean, at least I'm, I was on low bitch budget shows a lot, so, you know, people would just jump a minute. They get a better offer. .Missy Ozeas:Yeah.Michael Jamin:But then, and then was it hard for you because le well maybe you didn't do this, but I always felt for people, especially crew members who sub in for a day or two, they don't know anybody, they just jump right in. You know,Missy Ozeas:Okay, this is gonna sound funny, but I rarely, I hate day playing. Okay. So this is just me. And I mostly didn't day play mo mostly cuz I didn't really like it. And I, I was always busy. I I really worked a lot, but like, regularly with the same crew. Right. So I guess maybe I was lucky I didn't do it very much. I didn't have to, but I know a lot of people do and it's great because that's, that's great. They're professional. Like anyone could jump in. Like if I got sick, I knew I could call these, these people. They could jump in and do it. It's the same job. It's just that as a focus puller, you have to get used to, okay, what does your camera operator like? Because you're not just point focused and sitcoms, you're also zooming. So you, you're in charge as the actor moves, you've gotta zoom out, you know, so you stay in the frame or what is a, a single look like for this DP or this operator versus that one you different or what is we know, oh, this director's coming in. This director likes, you know, really tight singles. So you just have to know, oh, that guy likes that, or this person likes this.Michael Jamin:And do you, and you take notes though, during the run through, right? So, you know,Missy Ozeas:Yeah. We, we take notes and, and then I, what I love is I was mostly on the center camera. So the center cameras are the ones that have more movement and they're the, you know, the wider shots. Right. And to me, that's what I love because you pretty much don't even look at your notes. You just looking at that mon and you're just doing it all intuitively. Like that's what I loved. That's what I thrived at. I was bad at technical, but I could in use my intuition to just keep everything in frame. Like, that was so fun. That to me was fun.Michael Jamin:Yeah. I, that's so interesting. I remember when I was working on Maron it's a single camera show. And, and it was working on, on loca, on set where, you know, on location it was like some cramped like living room or something. Yeah. . And I was running the show and I was my partner and I remember like, I was hunched over the camera cause I couldn't see, I like video village was somewhere far away. I wouldn't be on set. And, and I was hunched over the guy pulling focus. He got so mad at me. He was like, get off the to go.Missy Ozeas:Yeah, yeah. Yeah, sometimes we have to share like that. Occasionally we have to do that with the director. And you're kind of like, well, okay, wait, I need to see too. Yeah,Michael Jamin:You need to see too. Right. I knows upset. I was like, I don't wanna fight. File a grievance against me. It's like I, no,Missy Ozeas:It's, it's because you know what, it's like you're in his office. If you think about it, this is my, my Apple box and my monitor, my focus point. This is my Apple. I knowMichael Jamin:This is his an office. And, and the way I felt was like, well this is my set. .Missy Ozeas:Yeah, yeah. Right, right. That's true. .Michael Jamin:No, but we were, yeah, we were at odds. But I made sure I stayed away from him after that. But after I was like, I don't have the guy, you know, getting calling, calling the union on me or something. But but okay. And so you did, and so mostly you did sitcoms. You didn't even do a lot of dramas,Missy Ozeas:Right? Nope. I want, see, once you get in sitcoms, especially if you're a parent, I think mm-hmm. , it's like, it's so I don't wanna say easy, well, kind of easy in that like physically it's easier on your body cuz everything's built and you just come in and it's like a family. I loved it.Michael Jamin:We're talking about multi-camera cuz single camera's a whole different thing, right. For you.Missy Ozeas:Yeah. That that's not that fun to me.Michael Jamin:And, and now there's very few single camera shows. Especially coms rather.Missy Ozeas:Yeah, that's true. I mean, so yeah, that's true. ItMichael Jamin:Really isn't. I mean, so we, cuz I wanna talk about, so I understand why you got into the business and I know you started transitioning outta the business. And so what, what motivated you? Like how did, what was that like? What did you, when did you know it was time ?Missy Ozeas:This is how I knew it. Well, I've been kind of bored, I think. But I didn't admit it to myself. And I think we can get complacent. Like we can just say, well this is a good life. And I did, I still loved it, but part of me was bored and then I realized like, you can ask people who work with me. I'm spending a lot of time talking to people about their problems. like, and then it's like, oh, okay, wait, I better get back to my camera and find out what's going on. So I would talk to a lot of people about their problems. I was like, Hey, this is kind of interesting, like what, why is that? And then one day on the ranch, the director came up to me and he said, oh, I mean he is really nice. He's like, okay missy, you know it's time to move up. What do you wanna do next? And like he, he was really kind, that was really nice of him to say. Right. and then literally I think my mouth was like no. And then I was like, whoa, that's super rude. But that's actually what I felt is like what I actually was, I think what was going through my mind was no way in hell do I wanna like learn another trade, uhhuh or even stay in this and really any longer.Michael Jamin:But that hadn't occurred to you cuz you at that point, well you've been working as a, in, in camera for, I don't know, 20 something years or more, right?Missy Ozeas:Yep.Michael Jamin:Yep. It, it hadn't occurred to you that you wanted to do something different before that or you know, you, eh,Missy Ozeas:Kinda, but you always get wheeled back in, reeled back in because it's like your whole crew is like, oh, we've got another season on this, or this got a pickup. And it's like, you're kind of going with that tide. And I felt lucky that I was able to do that. Right. And then it's like, why would I, there's not that many spots as a focus puller in Multicam. Why would you give it up? So those sort of beliefs of really it's scarcity or, and also just being scared to even find what the other thing is that you want. Because I didn't know what I wanted. That's the other thing. I didn't even know what I wanted to do. So it was hard to say, I'm gonna leave to do what I don't know. ButMichael Jamin:If you had, like, let's say a camera up was, was sick, you could have stepped in that day, right?Missy Ozeas:Yes. And okay, that was the other thing that was happening is people were saying, okay Missy, it's time to move up, be a cam operator. But I had zero interest in that and that, that I did know. I was like, Ugh, okay then that means I'm gonna have to go back to square one and start working you know, on maybe lower budget things as a cam operator. Well, maybe, maybe not, but I just, it just didn't, it wasn't a hell yes. It was more like a, ugh, that's all I can say.Michael Jamin:, you're, you're in this creative business creative field and you were just stagnating and, but you were okay with that. I mean, you, it was, you didn't wanna do anything different.Missy Ozeas:Yeah, I didn't know what that would look like. What would that be? I didn't know, but I just knew it wasn't that. So, so actually that's a really good point. I didn't, I had clarity about what I didn't want. I think like, okay, I know I'm getting to the end of this, but I had no clarity on what I wanted. Right. But I actually wantedMichael Jamin:And then, and then how did you find that clarity?Missy Ozeas:Yeah. So after I said no to the director, I was like, Ooh, that was weird. Okay, I better examine that. So I went back to my meditation. WasMichael Jamin:He insulted by the way? Was he like,Missy Ozeas:I dunno, he's like a nice guy. I don't know. I, me, I don't know. I never went back and asked him that , right. But yeah, so I went recommitted to my meditation practice, which I had before. And then I just ask every day my meditation, like, give me an answer like what am I supposed to do? ButMichael Jamin:Lemme ask you this though before you go on, because I meditate as well and I, you're not sup I always feel like you're not supposed to think when you're meditating. Like, I don't understand people who say I ask myself when you're meditating.Missy Ozeas:Okay, so this is, that's a great question. So, so I had heard, and I now I really believe this, that if you ask the universe a question by law, it has to answer mm-hmm. . So it will give you an answer whether that's a voice. I mean, you wouldn't think it's a voice in your head, it could be somebody else talking to you and giving you an answer. You read something, you get some kind of answer. So I was like, okay, I'm gonna try that. So I would set the intention at the beginning of the meditation, Hey, during this meditation, by the way, can somebody tell me what I'm supposed to do next?Michael Jamin:But at that point, when your mind wanders, you're supposed to get back to focus on whatever your, the breath or whatever it is you're focusing on. So,Missy Ozeas:Well I have sort of a thing about that. I don't think there's one right way to do meditation and that might just be me, but I think it's going inward is the point going inward and whatever. So, so some of the, like they say the monkey mind, the thinking that's actually just needs to get out. Like the more we try to like control it, the more it's gonna try to get in there. So part of it is just letting those thoughts come and then letting 'em go.Michael Jamin:And then what, because I, because when I'm, if I'm meditate, I'm thinking about, oh, I gotta balance my checkbook or whatever it is, you know, then I think my, nope. Get focus back on, don't, we're not, don't be distracted. Get back on the path of whatever that is. And so I don't understand how we, if you are waiting to hear an answer during your meditation, I don't understand how that's supposed to work.Missy Ozeas:Yeah, well I didn't quite understand either until it happened, but what I will say is it's a process and it's different for every person. So when they say you have to meditate this way and you have to do this, this, I don't think so. I think you could be walking and that could be a meditation, like for like some people walk better. It's really just getting into a deeper part of your mind. So you could say it that way or you could say connecting to your higher self. Like there's just different ways to say it, but you're really getting deeper than that surface stuff. Like, I have to do my checkbook or I have toMichael Jamin:Do that. Are you, are you thinking or are you trying not to think?Missy Ozeas:For, for me,Michael Jamin:Yeah.Missy Ozeas:For me, when I go to a chase station, actually I'm not trying to do anything. And I think that's might be the key is I'm just, whatever's coming up, I'm kind of sitting there open to whatever's coming up.Michael Jamin:So you ask yourself, so you set an intention and are you are, what are you, are you walking? Are you breathing? Are you sitting? What are you doing? ForMissy Ozeas:Me, I do, I'm better sitting. So I meditate right? When I wake up in the morning, I meditate at the end of the day and Okay,Michael Jamin:For how long?Missy Ozeas:It's different every time. I have like 30 minutes. It's 30 minutes or less at the beginning. And then at the end of the night it's much less Uhhuh . But youMichael Jamin:Close your eyes.Missy Ozeas:Yeah, I close my eyes and you'reMichael Jamin:Sitting in a chair.Missy Ozeas:Yeah, I'm sitting up. Oh, in my bed or somewhere. But I, you sit up usually. Right? And then I have my own process of getting in. And that's the thing is also you could use a guided meditation.Michael Jamin:Yeah. What is your pro, I'm cur Can you share what your process is?Missy Ozeas:Yeah, so I actually call, okay, so now it's gonna get kind of woowoo here, but I call in, so I put my hand here cuz like the high heart. So it's like a touch point. And I call in basically my spirit guides because I believe that we all are guided, however you wanna call it. We have beans that help us gotta get out there. But so I call them in and then I just sit in my meditation and I also do a lot of work for the future . Okay, that sounds weird, but I do a lot of like if my daughter is having something going on, like, or okay, just say my daughter has a job interview, then I will do some energy work around my daughter making sure she's sc grounded, she's safe and she has really good job interviews. So it's a lot about outcomes. Like, or also I do a lot of envisioning of like, what would be the highest outcome, you know, this or something better. So I do a lot of work where I envision what I want and then it going well. Things I should, that's so manyMichael Jamin:Things like that. I'm gonna interrupt you for just one second. Get back on it. So I should mention, you got out of working on set and now you are a healer and this is how you help people. So yeah. , this is why, why you know so much about this, but okay, so let's say you're, let's say your daughter's going on an interview and you're trying to help her Bryce setting an intention. And by the way, you helped me about with something. So I'm gonna talk about that in a second. But, so she goes out on interview and you're trying to, you're setting, setting out this energy, hoping that it goes well, but let's say it doesn't.Missy Ozeas:Yeah. So, okay. So that's a really good point. So to me, so I'm an energy healer. So what I do is I work with the energy in a person. So every person has an energetic field and inside that field it are beliefs, like limiting beliefs, right? Trapped emotion. There are all these things in here. So I'll get back to how this works. So basically as a healer, a heal to heal really just means to balance. So you're re helping somebody rebalance, but it's also like a handshake. So I can offer a healing to you, but it's up to you if you want to take that handshake mm-hmm. . And that's the first thing. So you have to want to accept it. And you might say, well, okay wait, are you talking to your daughter? Are you talking to this person? This is on a different, it's like everybody. So I believe we are a spirit with a body. So this is spirit to spirit work. So if my daughter's spirit doesn't want to accept that, that's fine, right? I can't force anything on anyone. And that is exactly how it should be. So there'sMichael Jamin:But is she aware that you're doing this for her or no?Missy Ozeas:No. Oh, it depends. Like sometimes people ask me, so the work I do, people are actually asking me, oh, can you work on this? Can you work on that? And if I send a healing quote, send a healing to somebody, it's just me extending it out and then it's up to their spirit if they wanna take it. Because we never wanna take somebody off. What is, so you asked what if it didn't go well, that's, that's because it wasn't meant to be right? It wasn't, that's her, that's for her. Cuz we always say this or something better and something better to us, we might say, oh, she didn't get that job. That must be terrible that that's a bad thing. But what we don't really realize is that was probably the best thing she wasn't supposed to get. That there's something better or it saved her from something. Rejection is protection. Mm-Hmm. you know, or, or redirection.Michael Jamin:But does she, I guess I'm asking does she have to buy in for it to work?Missy Ozeas:No. So that's a really good question. So a lot of times also I work on people who are babies. So they didn't buy in, right? They, or they're not physically understanding. Or if somebody is sick, like say you have a parent and they're like, you know they're unconscious or something, you can still work on an offer of that person and it's up to that person's spirit, whether they not wanna take it or not. So no, you don't have to consci because it's not same as therapy. Like when we're in therapy, we're talking about it and it's about our mind. This is deeper than the mind. So you don't, you could be, you and I could work together and you could be sleeping and I could still work with you because I'm working with your spirit, not with Michael. Y your personality.Michael Jamin:And then how do I know? How do I know if it worked then if I'm, if I'm asleep?Missy Ozeas:Oh, we, yeah, well cuz you'd kind of watched the outcomes. You, so you'd watch for outcomes and you, so, so example is like if we looked at you, Michael, and we said, oh, okay Michael, like if you said, you know, or we say we have a screenwriter, a young screenwriter who's coming up really wants to sell this screenplay. But if I looked in his field, it, I saw something that said, you know, I'm not good enough. Like maybe there were three and something happened and they have that belief I'm not good enough. Well, it's gonna be really hard for that person to sell that screenplay because they're going to feel, well I'm gonna turn it in, but it's probably not good enough and they're gonna approach with that energy. Right? So wait, I don't know if that answered your question, WellMichael Jamin:No, it's interest. Cause I wanna, it's funny, I, I worked, well you worked with me. So I think it was a couple years. I know it might have been two, twoMissy Ozeas:At least, right?Michael Jamin:Yeah. And so I was just, I was in this space where I'm writing this book and it was just at the beginning of this book. And then you helped me and I wrote down, I have and I have them my notes what you wrote down. Oh actually it was, it says September. Well, I'm not sure if that's right, but you spoke to me about a couple of things and the ones that I wrote down were my voice is a gift to this world.Missy Ozeas:Yeah, wellMichael Jamin:That was a big one and that really meant a lot to me. And I really went off thinking about that a lot afterwards. And then the other one was, what lies am I telling myself? I think you said that as well. And then, but is that something you was that specific to me that, I mean that's good advice for everyone, but is that specific to me?Missy Ozeas:Okay, so the voice is, your voice gift is very specific to you. And would you say that with everything that's happened? So I've watched you and it's like so awesome. I just love it that, so I've seen you twice in your play or your readings, right? And I think that like I can, I'm sitting in the audience so I can feel what the audience, how they're reacting to you. And also I've seen you on social media like since the time that we worked together. You've really used your voice. It's super amazing. I'm not saying cause of the work we did, but I'm saying because you chose to do that. And even if it was scary, I don't know to you, you walk through that fear and that's when our manifestations come in, when we do the clearing and we walk through, you take action and walk through fear, which you clearly did. And you're clearly in alignment because a lot of amazing things are happening for you and you're using, you are using your voice.Michael Jamin:But I still feel, you know, it's funny to say, I still feel stuck sometimes. I still, you know, it is, it feels like it doesn't go away really, you know?Missy Ozeas:Well, and that's also, it's like I always say our energy's like an onion. So we did the work on what? So I ask your body what we, we ask specifically for whatever you were working on. Your body will show me those pieces that need to be released that are blocking you. But then the next thing will come up, right? And, and that's what we wanna do is then watch what's the next things that's triggering us and we're gonna know that's the next thing I need to work on. So we're always to work in progress.Michael Jamin:But then how do you, how do you know what these layers, the onion are for me? Is it in, are you intuiting it, are you like what you know?Missy Ozeas:Yeah. Okay, so that's that weird thing. So I have this weird gift and, and where I can see energy and like when I was little I saw ghosts and stuff and I was scared of looking in the mirror because I would see things uhhuh, . But then I cut it off cuz I could tell that that was not appropriate. So I hid that part of myself, right? But after I started doing training, I, I started getting certifications and training in it. Then it, it grows right? Just like a muscle, right? You get stronger, you're a better runner the more that you train for it. So in training I was able to bring it out. So yeah, I can look at somebody and see where we a just ask your body a question cuz your body holds the key. It holds all these nonphysical elements of, of Michael in there.Michael Jamin:And, and so do you work a lot with, is it crea, is it everybody or is it mostly creative people or is it creative people? Like, you know,Missy Ozeas:I, I can I work with, I could work with anybody. I would say that mostly they're creatives, mainly because I came from that field. Like if I came from maybe corporate, I might work with corporate, but I don't work with corporate because that'sMichael Jamin:How they find you.Missy Ozeas:Yeah. some odd people in Hollywood. Yeah. AndMichael Jamin:Do you, so, okay, so you work mainly with creative people. Do you feel like they tend to have a certain, is there a similarity that you see with creative people? Like a pattern maybe? Yeah,Missy Ozeas:It's that their voice or what they have to say isn't good enough. It's, I guess most people have this, but really with creatives, it's this fear that what they have inside isn't enough. And that's what I love. That's why I love working with creatives because it is, we are all you being authentic. So you actually being totally Michael is the thing that draws people to you. And, and even when we, and then the thing is we start judging ourselves. That's the part about the lies that we were talking about with you. Yeah. Is is that actually true? Because you might perceive something through your own sort of wounds or things that happen when you were little. But the rest of us isn't, we don't see that we Right. We just want you to be authentically you. Cuz then that's interesting. We don't want like another copy of someone else.Michael Jamin:So you're basically saying it's imposter syndrome.Missy Ozeas:Yes. Everybody has.Michael Jamin:Yes. Pretty much has.Missy Ozeas:Yes. So it's uncovering what keeps you hiding, what is it?Michael Jamin:But is there anybody, this is gonna sound mean , but is there anybody who, like when you say like, your voice is a gift, is there anybody whose voice isn't a gift? You know what I'm saying? Is there, is there anybody whose talent doesn't measure up?Missy Ozeas:Well it depends. I would not say everybody's voice is a gift because they have a different gift. You have the gift of a voice that's very specific to you. But somebody else might have the gift of painting that's not a voice. That's their painters or their I don't know, you know, they can create a great house. They're they interior designer, right? Everyone has different gifts. And that is the thing about purpose. It's like if anybody here is looking for their purpose, it's what comes easy and natural to you. That's one piece. And that doesn't come easy and natural to other people and what brings you joy. And if you can put those things together, that is the, the, the sweet spot. And so for you, you, your voice, the what you have to say actually with the voice, what you're writing, all of that is what you're naturally good at. And then, well, I guess I would ask you, is it, do you like it?Michael Jamin:Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.Well yeah, I mean, yeah, when you select my, my show, like that's, we're doing, putting more energy into that. It feels kind of important. But it does feel, it does feel like like it's, it's al it's almost crazy how much, like, what I want is, it is like the road is so long, there's so much building that has to go into going down this road. It almost feels crazy. Hey, that's,Missy Ozeas:That's different though. What about when you are doing it, when you're either riding it or when you're performing it, what is that? You knowMichael Jamin:What, right before I go on, you know, in that stage, every single time I go on, I can hear the audience chattering. The music comes on and I'm my heart, you know, I'm getting a little nervous and almost every single time before I go on, I go, why am I doing this ? But, and then, and I've asked myself that question a lot to a lot of different people. And I think the best answer I can come up with is because I can.Missy Ozeas:Because you can. Okay. What are you feeling like while you're doing it?Michael Jamin:You know, this is, you know, Cynthia directs it, so she's trained me a lot. I'm, yeah, I'm really supposed to be lost in it. I'm supposed to be in that moment. And sometimes if I slip out and I go, wait a minute, I'm not performing, I'm not in the moment, I'm not performing it now I gotta get back. I gotta be in that moment. And so I'm almost not really conscious of what's going on. I'm in it. And sometimes I think, I don't know, you've seen a couple of shows, but afterwards a couple pieces are very emotional and I could tell the people in the audience are almost thinking like, is he gonna be okay? , you know, I'm in it, it it,Missy Ozeas:But that's, but that's flow. Like, you know, we're in flow when we're so in it. I don't know, maybe when you write are you also in flow? You know, when it just starts, comes not that every moment is like that, but flow is also when we know that we're kind of doing the thing that we're supposed to be doing. Not everybody is in flow when they're writing. Not everyone can get up there and, and be in a character and, or I guess you're not a character, you're you. But yeah, be up there and be okay and be in flow. Not everybody can do that. That's the thing is you, so you're married to Cynthia who's an actress, so you might have this view and you work in Hollywood, so you might think, you know what, everyone can do this. No, that's a skewed view.Michael Jamin:. Yes. That's what I do think I do. I do feel like, well I work with a lot of writers who could do what I'm doing, but they just choose not to. And so, but you're right, it does, it does in many ways it kind of discounts it because it, it seems normal. I'm around people who do this kind of thing, you know? And so I don't really think, well, I it's not that special. We all can do it, you know,Missy Ozeas:And that's part of the lies, right? We wanna see like, is it a lie? Can everyone do this? No. Also we often discount what we're good at because it is so natural. Like I would guess that it's really easy for you to write, say you've been a writer for a long time, that not that every moment is easy, but you can write. So you kind of like, well that's not so special. I don't know, I've always done it or Right, I've done all, but no, it's not true. And that's true for a, you know, a tennis player or anybody. A lot of us discount what we're actually naturally good at because it comes so easy. And that's a great question to ask your friends or your spouse, like, well, what do you guys think I'm good at? If you can't figure out what you're good at yourself, ask somebody who knows you and they'll tell you.Michael Jamin:Yeah, see it. Yeah, I remember what, what's kind of struck me after doing a bunch of these shows and we're gonna do more again, I guess in the summer or the fall, something like that. But after I do these shows, people would come up to me and then they'd start telling me their secrets. You know,Missy Ozeas:. Okay. Okay. And how do you feel about that?Michael Jamin:It, it, it was shocking. It felt like an honor. It, it sometimes feel like, at first it was like, why are you telling me this? You know? . But, but I think it's because I just did the same, I had just done the same to them that they wanted to rec, they felt it was safe to, to reciprocate. You know? DoMissy Ozeas:You see that? No. It's so exciting. Okay. Do you see that's what I mean about your voice's gift because you are gifting that, that sense of vulnerability and safety that we see when you go on stage, then we feel that. And I've been in your things where I was crying actually. So I felt that. But then people telling you that means that you have created this space for somebody else to feel safe. To tell you that is a gift to, it's like a key to unlock. It's so another way we could say you have the key, you have a key to unlock that not everybody can do that.Michael Jamin:Right? That's another thing you taught me. And I, that's another thing which I really, for years you told me. I mean, yeah, your voice is your gift. And when I, when I heard gift for years, I'll think, you know, people say, oh, you're gifted, you're a gifted writer. I interpret that it as mean as like the universe had given me this gift and now I have it and now it's mine. And then you said that it doesn't have to mean that your voice is your gift could mean your gift for everyone else. Yeah. And that changed a lot to me. That changed everything. Cuz then it felt like it's selfish. If I don't give the gift, it's theirs. It's not for me, it's for them. Yeah. And then it takes, it, it really changed a lot because part of it, yeah, it felt like, well this is my obligation is to give this gift. It No, it's not. It's at first it felt like, well, okay, I have this thing and I'm, I'm almost like, is it showing off? Or is it, is it about me if I'm doing, if I have this gift and, and you're like, no, it's about, it's about them. It's for them.Missy Ozeas:Yeah. And, and, and the other thing I would say is, so when you were born, this is you, but this is everybody listening. You were actually, were given gifts, the gift of writing, the gift of insight, the gift of whatever all your gifts are specific to Michael. And then you are also given desires. So the desire for you to get your work out there or be on tour or any of that. Mm-Hmm. is actually the gift because that's how we know where to go is the desires and, and the the gifts that you were given. And then you give that. So it's a double gift. You were gifted and then you're gifting back out. And that's how all of us who have imposter syndrome should view it that way. It's not about us, it's not about the comparison. It's just about, oh my gosh, what gifts do I have? What feels good for me to give out? And then that's all. We don't even have to think about how it's re received. We just give it.Michael Jamin:That's, that's right. And it's cuz when we were, when Cynthia and I were, you know, working on the play my show and she's directing me at every step, we're always thinking, well I always, I always thinking, what else can I give the audience? What else, how else can I give them more? You know, that's another thing. People are paying whatever is 35 bucks for a ticket. I'm like, you, you gotta give them more like whatever. It's not enough because it's a lot of money, you know?Missy Ozeas:Oh. But then that's a belief in there though that, so that's interesting because that's almost like you're saying what I actually have my show isn't maybe enough.Michael Jamin:Right. Right. Yeah, I know.Missy Ozeas:And yeah, so, so that would be like kind of coming through like what's underneath that, like what emotions are underneath that? And then what age were you when you first believed that to be true? Because it's almost like, well I'm not sure if this is what it is, but equating $35 equals this, so it should be looked like this when actually you are priceless. You there isn't another person that's like my fault. Yeah.Michael Jamin:But, but you know how it is. Like, first of all, I'm asking people, okay, to buy a ticket. I'm asking 'em to take whatever, an hour and a half out of their day, their evening to get dress, go to the theater. It's a big ask. You know, park the car, get a babysitter. Maybe it's a big ask. And then nothing is worse than bad theater.Missy Ozeas:Okay. But that, so that's interesting you say it that way because I, as I, okay, so I have gone to the shows. I didn't think of it that way that you're saying. I was like, oh cool, I get to have an hour and a half or whatever time to not think about anything else. To just sit, immerse in a dark room listening to stories, feeling emotions without having to do anything else. So at that's very interesting that you feel it that way. And I don't, I didn't see it that way at all. You could haveMichael Jamin:Gone, there was a million shows you could have gone to that night, you know, if you wanted to sit in the dark and and experience a show.Missy Ozeas:Yeah. But I was excited to go to yours. I mean, and I think that that's the other thing to remember, free will and choice people, anyone who is in your theater, they chose to be there, right? So second guessing, oh no, did they choose to be there? Did someone make them be there? Do they not wanna be here? That doesn't actually help them because that's then you're maybe not giving your best performance. I guess what they came to see you, it should just be okay. I, they came to see me or they wouldn't be here. Cause yeah, they choose free will.Michael Jamin:That's something else Cynthia helped me with was like, I don't, I don't know which, which shows you came to, but at one point, maybe halfway through the run, Cynthia's like, you're not taking the stage the right way. I'm like, well how am I supposed to take the stage? She goes, you walk on the stage and you're a rockstar. That's what she wanted me to feel like. You've gotta feel like you're a rockstar. I'm like, but I'm not a rockstar. She, you are when you take the stage . And that was difficult, you know, to get that, to accept that it didn't feel humble, you know?Missy Ozeas:Ah, so also I've heard you say a couple things about that. So humble or is that selfish? So that's actually programming, right? So somewhere, and I'm not picking on you, this is like all no, I,Michael Jamin:This is helpful for me.Missy Ozeas:Things is that when we feel like, like that's bragging or I shouldn't market my show or I shouldn't, you know, I must be humble. That's actually somewhere, somewhere down the line we learned that our well basically that being who we are is too much kind of, or, or we learn like damp it down, tamp it down. And what good does that do? Like that doesn't that a lot of us were trained to dim our light. I mean, that's how we say it, right? Yeah. To be smaller bec in the name of being humble, but being humble really means throwing a lot of dirt on you so no one can see you. I mean like, that's how I see it. It's just like,Michael Jamin:But no one likes people who are, who are, who brag or who you know. Right. There'sMissy Ozeas:A difference though, between bragging and then inviting. Okay. So that's another way to think about. So if we think about selling, selling is like, please buy my thing. Maybe we might think like, oh look how great I am. See, but there's another version of that which is inviting, inviting you into your world. So you are, so that's another way you are inviting us to sit in your world with you for this amount of time. And I think it's fascinating. Like, it's fascinating to listen to your stories or learn a little bit more about your life or the way that you were thinking at that time in your life. Like, I wasn't like in your show, it's not like I'm sitting there like, oh my god, I'm like in it. I'm in it. Right? And that's what people want. Just like why do we go to the movies? We wanna escape, we wanna go into someone else's story. And that's a value, right? Well you right. That you gave us and if I didn't wanna go, I would just not buy a ticket. So if it helps you just know everybody wanted to be there.Michael Jamin:Right? But how do you clear that block? If that's something I deal withMissy Ozeas:The, oh well we'd have to ask your body questions. I mean, if you want me to, I could askMichael Jamin:Right now. I dunno, we're we're, this is, we're just talk. I don't make you gimme a free reading. I'm just No, no,Missy Ozeas:No, let's just do it for fun. I'm gonna ask your body right now. Okay. What is your question? Would you say it's about,Michael Jamin:Well what, yeah, what's my question?Missy Ozeas:Okay, so what do, so the block is I feel like I'm bragging or is it? Yeah.Michael Jamin:Okay. Right. Yeah. Am I not being humble? Yeah. Well people like me if I'm not humble maybe. Is that it?Missy Ozeas:Yeah. Okay. Okay, so p people, so what is the root cause? So we can, so we do this way. What's the root cause of, of your belief that people won't like me?Michael Jamin:Well maybe it's cuz I don't like people who are not humble.Missy Ozeas:Yeah. But it kind of goes both ways though. It's a belief, right? You wouldn't see it. It be yourself and to other people. It that makes sense to me. So let, let's just see. Okay, so now this is where I get an idea of where it is. So this in your solar plexus. So solar plexus is right, be right here, right? You can see, say right below your breast bone. Okay. So what comes to me is feeling overwhelmed with all the shoulds and half dues in your life. So that's the piece and that, that came maybe like eight or nine years old. So one, do you recognize that feeling?Michael Jamin:It's so interesting. Everyone's gonna be lining up to, to, they're gonna wanna go to your website right after this and lineup to get, you know, reading from you. So we'll, I'll be sure to mention that. But well, you know, as a kid, sure I was an obedient kid. Whatever my parents told me to do, I, that was, that was what I did.Missy Ozeas:Okay. Do you remember anything specific around that age?Michael Jamin:Specific to exactly what?Missy Ozeas:So, so how so? Oh yeah. Okay. I guess this is say, so this belief or this energy of feeling overwhelmed with all the shoulds and the have tos, which is kinda like being in a box. Like we could say like, have I have to stay in here otherwise I won't be loved probably, or safe or loved. That feeling you trapped it right here in your body and your solo plexus at, around the age of eight or nine from a specific event. So how I could look is maybe something happened at school or with your parents, but a specific event if you can't recall it. Okay. So sometimes we're like, I can't remember anything. Well, it's okay, your body is telling me Right. That that is what it is. But I always ask, I mean, do you actually recall anything?Michael Jamin:I, I mean I, I do recall being in school and being very nervous about getting, doing my homework Right. Doing my, you know, get, you know, doing everything right. And it's funny, you know, it's funny. Oh,Missy Ozeas:Okay.Michael Jamin:I, I, my mother saves all like my, all my report cards when I was like six years old or first grade, I guess that's six years old. And on in en it said Michael's, the teacher wrote, he's very concerned about getting everything right. And he comes to me when he has an assignment, he keeps coming back to me to make sure he's doing it right. God forbid he does it wrong. , like, I was always checking with her to make sure I'm doing it right.Missy Ozeas:Okay. So do you still feel that todayMichael Jamin:To some degree Yeah.Missy Ozeas:Yeah. Okay. So this is the, I know it's like, wait, what does this have to do with being humble? But it actually, your body's telling me it does. So it's actually the, the way I see it is that I have to act a certain way or I won't be loved. Right? I mean, so, so if I'm not, if I'm something that feels like bragging or I'm something else, I won't be loved. But it's based on being overwhelmed by half tos and shoulds at that young age. Mm-Hmm.Michael Jamin:. Right?Missy Ozeas:I mean, again, this is only part of it. I mean, likely there's a lot more, but I'm just asking for one pieceMichael Jamin:And what do I do? Do I meditate on that and try to release that?Missy Ozeas:No, you just get rid of it. Look, . Well that's, that's the work. Okay. So the work that I do then is I find what those specific pieces are right for you. And then I hold the intention to release it and then we, okay, so now it sounds kind of weird. Okay, so this is how I explain it. Your we're made of energy. So our physical bodies also have an energy field around it. And in that field, in the energy field are, are like these beliefs that stop us from doing what we want, really want with our lives. It's conditioning, it's family programming, all those things. And so we energy will move according to intention and observation. That's like something you can look up with. It's quantum physics, like Google, quantum physics. Mm-Hmm. , you'll see there's experiments and things that show if you look at something that it will change the outcome.Right? So by finding, so together we observe, like we find exact piece of energy where it is in your body, the ag, where when you trapped it and then it hold the intention to release it. And then we put new, like another belief in that's more empowering. Like for you it's like, it's almost like the opposite. It's you know, like I'm safe. I don't know, we'd have to find one for you that feels right for you, but it's like I'm safe to be me. I mean it's really kind of something like that. Just like feeling safe.Michael Jamin:But then how long, once you release it, how long could you expect it to stay released? Like doesn't it come back?Missy Ozeas:It depends. I mean, sometimes I have to work with people longer, you know, more than, that's why I mostly work with people for two months so that we can release and then we integrate and then we kind of do some work in between the sessions and then we do another session and then we really can clear something out. And also likely that's only one piece we found. I am feeling like there's more other ones besides that and they're all kind of together. Right. You know, tabled together. The other thing though, it informs you, it helps you. So we know overwhelmed with all the have tos and shoulds also can help you think about your life now, not just with writing, but do you actually feel overwhelmed? Are there a lot of things that you feel like should be a certainMichael Jamin:Yeah.Missy Ozeas:Or you should do things So it's,Michael Jamin:Yeah, I struggle with that a lot. What should I, am I supposed to be doing this? Am I supposed to be, I, you know, I was supposed to be doing something else when I was younger, when I was in my twenties, you know, I think people called it existential angst. Am I supposed to be doing this? Am I supposed to be doing something out? And that's how I called. That's how what I thought about it myself.Missy Ozeas:So it's actually trust actually, now that we really talk about it, it's really self-trust. So think about you when you were talking about when you were little and you would say, oh, is this right? Did I do it right? Yeah. That's outsourcing Right. Your own that it really, it should be like, oh I know I did this. Right? Right. But it's okay. You were little but you were outsourcing that to somebody else to show you. Is that right or wrong? Right. And so we could say today your the greatest thing you could do for yourself would be really to trust yourself. Right.Michael Jamin:Right. And that's hard for a lot of people I think.Missy Ozeas:Yes, absolutely. Yeah. This is not just for you. We're not picking on you today. No. This is a good message for everybody is that we trust the gifts we were given. We trust the moment in time and we take those actions that might be scary, but sometimes it's just discomfort cuz we've never been there before.Michael Jamin:So why do you think people give away that kind of agency? Is it becauseMissy Ozeas:A lot of it is programming. I mean Right. Like we are taught teachers know best. Yeah. Or maybe when you're even younger than the age that we found that maybe you were no, let's not pick on your mom and dad cuz they were trying their best, but maybe they real had the kind of authority parents where they're like, no Michael, just follow the, this is the right, this is wrong. Right. This is the way to do it. And you weren't given agency, you weren't given, you weren't asked maybe a choice. Oh Michael, do you like, do you wanna wear the red shoe today? Or the blue shoe. Right? So things like that take away our agency.Michael Jamin:But even now as an adult, why do you feel adult? Just cuz they're conditioned. I mean it seems like, it seems like it might be, well, if I don't let somebody else decide if I'm doing it right, I can't if I'm not doing it right. You know, why do people not, don't trust themselves, I guess is the right question.Missy Ozeas:I still think it's goes back to programming because we weren't taught to care or we weren't taught to trust ourselves. And that is actually the magic is when we just trust our gut. Yeah. Even when nobody, like I went from being camera assistant to be an energy healer. That is a very weird thing. I had to do a lot of clearing on myself cuz that's weird like that. Yeah. That's weird. So, but I had to trust myself enough to say, okay, everybody, nobody understands this, but I'm gonna do this because I know it's the right thing. AndMichael Jamin:That's a, that's very hard cuz then you're opening yourself up to judgment and and you're changing your identity.Missy Ozeas:Yes. But what if we didn't allow ourselves to be open to judgment? Because does it really matter? Because here's the thing is some people, okay, if I look at myself, some people are gonna say, oh my God, Missy, you're so crazy. Or That is weird. I don't get what you do, I don't like it. But then there were all these other people who I helped and who loved it. So you are never gonna please everybody. There's gonna be people who love your show, people who hate your show. Right. That's just fact. Right. Nobody's gonna always love us. So we have to trust. We might as well, okay, we're gonna go through this life. We're never gonna get everyone to agree on everything, so why not do what we love and just put that out there.Michael Jamin:But do you, it sounds like, I mean, it sounds like you do you, do you ever have any doubts about, I mean, , even though you convinced yourself what you just said, don't be, don't worry about being judged. Do you still doubt?Missy Ozeas:Absolutely. Like I, like, you know, like going on Instagram or doing like you do, that was inspiring that, I mean, since it was telling me a y a year before like Missy get on Instagram, I'm like, oh, you can't do it. Like, my stuff didn't even have my face on it. Yeah. I wasn't doing podcasts, I wasn't doing anything. So that was, I had to walk through fear. But, you know, what helped me was I knew I was helping people. So same thing for you, you know, you're connecting to audiences. You can see our fate. I think you can, right. You can see we're reacting.Michael Jamin:Oh, in the now I can't see a thing. Oh, you can'tMissy Ozeas:See anything .Michael Jamin:Also people were wearing masks, you know? Oh,Missy Ozeas:That'sMichael Jamin:True. But, but even still the lights were right in my eye. I couldn't see anything.Missy Ozeas:But do you know that, do you know that people, you must have got feedback. Do you IMichael Jamin:Could sense it. You could feel it. Like you could feel when people are in it, you know, you could, you could hear a pin drop, you know, or you could hear a laughter or you could hear the, you know, siren. AndMissy Ozeas:People tell you probably give you feedback after so that you know that you are making some kind mm-hmm. of difference or you're affecting people and that's amazing. It's your gift. That's your gift. And you're giving your gift and then, you know, it's okay. Another way to think of it, it's like say I, I came to your house and I gifted you this pen. Mm-Hmm. , I gifted to you. And I don't think about it anymore. It's not like I'm, oh, I wonder if Michael'

Welcome back to The Nerd Expansion! Today's guest is the one and only  Steven Silverstein and his nerd love is Bewitched. It's awesome.Steven Silverstein has music directed and accompanied the famous and near famous on Broadway (Blood Brothers, Swinging on a Star, & the revival of Promises Promises); Off-Broadway, (When Pigs Fly, The Green Heart, & Annie Warbucks); Regional Theatre (Goodspeed Opera House, Papermill Playhouse, & Westport County Playhouse); and Specialty (54 Below & Noel Coward: The Women of His World at Lincoln Center with Dava Ivey, Dee Hoty & Cady Huffman). He has coached and played piano for Debra Messing, Sean Hayes, Megan Mullally, Harry Connick Jr., Carole King John Treacy Egan, Neva Small, Tony Award Winner Bill Irwin, and the Tony award winner Annaleigh Ashford.  In addition to his vast experience as a musical director and coach, he has a MAC nomination (Manhattan Association of Cabarets) and has tickled the ivories for cabaret performances at 54 Below, The Duplex, and Don't Tell Mama in NYC. Steven is also a prolific published composer and arranger, having published two children's shows (Enchorage Press) . His work was  performed at The New York Public Library for the Performing Arts at Lincoln Center in the Bruno Walter Auditorium.    Steven's song Shoot Me (with Andrew Zachary Cohen)  received an  honorable mention from the City Center's Lobby Project 2022 highlights as composer: His musical Forever and A Day (with bookwriter lyricist Marcus Scott) was part of the Downtown Urban Arts Festival in  June,  His musical Nothin But Love (with Andrew Zachary Cohen) had an informal reading in July,   Six of his songs (with Michael Colby) in OTHER LIVES were presented as part of Winter Rhythms at Urban Stages in December. He shares his love and passion for music and musical theatre with students of all ages at American Music and Dramatic Academy.  He also has been on the faculty of  The Neighborhood Playhouse Junior School, Marymount Manhattan College, PACE University, SUNY  Purchase and NYU. Steven's students have appeared on Broadway in Annie, Newsies, The Producers, 30 Rock among others.  Steven holds a B.A. in Theatre/B.S. in Finance from the University of Bridgeport and an M.A. in Music Education. Upcoming: 2023 Students at Western Connecticut State University will be doing a staged reading of his musical HOW RUDE (written with Phillip George of Forbidden Broadway). Find Steven:YoutubeTwitterFacebookWebsiteTikTokInstragramCheck out Steven's podcast: "Stay Awake with Silverstein" and Making the News SingHosted By: Nick Bowan & Sasha WeissTheme song written by Korrie YamaokaPerformed by Sasha Weiss & Korrie Yamaoka

Michael Jamin sits down with one of his good friends (and former bosses) Jonathan Aibel who was a movie writer for Kung Fu Panda 1-3 and has worked on other greats like Trolls, Monster Trucks, The SpongeBob Movie: Sponge Out of Water, and Monsters vs Aliens. If you dream of being a movie or TV writer, you won't want to miss this podcast episode!Show Notes:Jonathan Aibel IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0008743/Jonathan Aibel EMMYS: https://www.emmys.com/bios/jonathan-aibelJonathan Aibel Rotten Tomatoes: https://www.rottentomatoes.com/celebrity/jonathan_aibelMichael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAutogenerated Transcript:Jonathan Aibel (00:00:00):We knew storyboards, we knew how to read storyboards. We knew what happens in an editing room and how actors perform, right? So we came to it with production skills or an, an understanding of the process that that helped us come in and say, oh, I think you can, you can cut a few frames there and actually know what we were talking about.Michael Jamin (00:00:23):You're listening to Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin. Hey everyone. Welcome to Screenwriters. Need to hear this. I'm Michael Jamin, and I got a great guest for you today. This is my, this is one of my, this is one of my first bosses, actually. And yeah, yeah, John, it's true. I am here with John Abel one of the partner, he, his partners Glen Berger. I'll have him on in a future episode. So tell him to just relax. I know he wants toJonathan Aibel (00:00:51):Be, let's see how this goesMichael Jamin (00:00:52):First. Yeah, he'll, exactly. So yeah, and this guy's got a ton of credit. We, he's a real life movie writer. So let me give, I'm gonna sell you a, I'm gonna sell you, John, and then I'll let you talk for a second. But first let me talk, let me sell you up.Jonathan Aibel (00:01:04):That's fine.Michael Jamin (00:01:04):Proof everyone knows, like, I'm a, people say I'm a good creative writer. Wrong. I'm gonna prove it by selling you here, by building you up. So he's written on a u s a, he wrote run on King of the Hill for many years, including he was the showrunner, season five, cos Showrunner Mar. He also worked on Married to the Kelly's. That was his tv. That was his run in TV, I think. And then he went on to write Kung fu Panda, Kung fu Panda two, Kung fu Panda three proving like, you know, milking that thing, just milking that Kung fu panda thing. And then trolls, monster Trucks. And you've had a couple, couple upcoming stuff I want to talk about. Jonathan Abel, welcome to the show.Jonathan Aibel (00:01:46):Thank you. That was okay.Michael Jamin (00:01:48):What wasn't good? What should I have said?Jonathan Aibel (00:01:49):Well, you, king of the Hill is six years and like, that was six six. That was great TV. And then, and then you kinda mentioned some things. I was on six weeks with the same,Michael Jamin (00:01:59):Yeah,Jonathan Aibel (00:02:00):The same emphasis.Michael Jamin (00:02:01):I'm pretty sure, but I'm pretty sure. So they're not equal, you're saying, you're saying, well,Jonathan Aibel (00:02:07):You know, some, some are hits and some are are learning experiences. I'mMichael Jamin (00:02:12):Wearing my shirt for you by the, my King of the Hilter. But let, lemme tell you something. Let me tell you let me tell you something else. So will you, you guys, you and your partner Glenn hired basically, hi. You and Richard Pell hired us to be on King of the Hill. I think there was an opening because of Paul Lieberstein who left. And we literally took his office. So I credit I thank you for that. Oh, you'reJonathan Aibel (00:02:30):Welcome.Michael Jamin (00:02:31):When we got, when we joined the show, it was like, you know, it's your responsibility to get up to speed. So I asked for every script that was written or every, you know, anything on DVD that was already shot. And I distinctly remember reading all your guys' scripts, you and you and Glen Scripps, and just thinking, man, every script you wrote was just tight. It was so tight. And you'd come outta the box with a big joke. And it was just so well written. And like, you know, I didn't, there was 20 writers in the show, but I remember that your, your scripts always stood out like, man, these are always,Jonathan Aibel (00:03:02):You know, IMichael Jamin (00:03:03):Appreciate that. Always good. Yeah.Jonathan Aibel (00:03:04):I also appreciate your your diligence.Michael Jamin (00:03:07):My diligenceJonathan Aibel (00:03:08):Well, to come into a job and say, let me read everything. Lemme seeMichael Jamin (00:03:12):Everything. Oh, is, I didn'tJonathan Aibel (00:03:13):Think that was, it was a bit of a challenge with a hundred episodes.Michael Jamin (00:03:16):Always dreadful. The whole thing was a horrible experience. It's a lot to, but I remember. But you have to do it. You have to. That's how you get the voice of the characters and but the, to like, what kind of show episodes are being told. I remember, I dunno if I ever told you this, but I remember we had just, we were on just Shoot Me, you know, for the first four years. And I remember after the first season, king of the Hill was up against to shoot me. And I remember I was actually house-sitting for Steve Levitan for some reason. And and we were watching, I, we threw a big party. He, he wasn't in the house. And, and we were watching King of the Hill. It just came on. It was the, it was, you know, the Bobby's falls in love with the, with the dummy. And I, and I remember watching thinking, oh no, this is the competition. , this is really good Jonathan Aibel (00:04:01):That we used to watch. Just shoot me all the time in the writer's room feel that same way.Michael Jamin (00:04:06):Is that right? I didn't know that. I don't, I don't think so,Jonathan Aibel (00:04:08):But I, I just feels like it would, it should be.Michael Jamin (00:04:11):Yeah. You, you actually used to reciprocate.Jonathan Aibel (00:04:13):That'd be a nice thing to say.Michael Jamin (00:04:14):It would've been. But yeah, so Damn, Michelle was, and I still get, I, even today I get a ton of compliments on, on King of Hill. But tell me more. Tell me how you broken. How did you guys even get on King of Hill Hill?Jonathan Aibel (00:04:28):We were very lucky in that before we even moved to California, we, Glen and I met, we were management consultants and we met someone at this consulting firm who was college roommate with Greg Daniel's wife. And when we first started thinking maybe we don't wanna be consultants and would prefer to be comedy writers, she said, you should talk to Suzanne. Give her a call. So we called Suzanne to say, could we, we know you're Frank, could we talk to you about writing? And she said, you really wanna talk to my husband? So she put Greg on the phone. He didn't know who we were. We, he then I, whatMichael Jamin (00:05:11):Was Greg doing at that time?Jonathan Aibel (00:05:13):He had moved to la I think he was doing Seinfeld at the time or had done the freelance, the parking spot on Seinfeld. Oh, I didn't, yeah, he'd come off of snl.Michael Jamin (00:05:24):Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:05:25):And he gave the most basic advice that now you would probably give people, or you'd Google this. And it was, and Glen wrote it down, it was moved to Los Angeles. Mm-Hmm. . Okay, okay. What else do we need to do? Like the how do you become a writer? And just super helpful in that regard. And then we moved to LA and never ran into him until King of the Hill. We had our first meeting and Glenn, I think he may have brought the pad and said, it's your fault. We're here.Michael Jamin (00:06:00):But how did you get the meetingJonathan Aibel (00:06:02):That, that it was just through our agent. There's this new show starting up, it's animated. I don't wanna do animation. I know, I know. And it's non gild. Yeah,Michael Jamin (00:06:12):I know aboutJonathan Aibel (00:06:13):That. And you're gonna work in a full year for 12 episodes. Mm-Hmm. . Well, this sounds terrible, but it's Greg, it's Mike Judge who's coming off of Beavis and Butthead. Mm-Hmm. . And you will learn a lot whether it's a hit or not. And we thought, well, that's probably the best reason to, to take a job. There's nothing to see. There was no pilot even, there's just a script. Right. There are no voices to listen to. It had been cast. So it was really just going under the assumption that, well, anytime you think something's gonna be a hit, it never is. So let's take a job just based on the people. And I don't think at that moment we had there, it wasn't like, do we take this or do we take this? It was, well, do we take this or do we just hang on? And, but you had no, I think maybe we hadn't,Michael Jamin (00:07:04):You didn't have any other credits before that, did you?Jonathan Aibel (00:07:06):No, we had done, we started off, oh, we did an episode of the George Carlin show. We had done, youMichael Jamin (00:07:13):Were right down the hall from me. I didn't know that. Cause I was a pa.Jonathan Aibel (00:07:15):Right. Well, we had done a freelance. A freelance,Michael Jamin (00:07:17):Doesn't matter. You were in the Warner Brothers building, building 1 22 or something. Cuz that's where it was.Jonathan Aibel (00:07:21):Well, here. No, cuz here's our great George Carlin story is that we wrote this script for Sam Simon. Right. We turned it in. We get a call a few weeks later from someone at the studio who said, great episode. And we said, oh, you read the script. Well read the script. Did tape last night.Michael Jamin (00:07:42): just slapping the face. Yeah.Jonathan Aibel (00:07:47):We were not invited to our own tape. So we watched, we had a party, we watched it at home. Look, our first, our first big creditMichael Jamin (00:07:54):That, but that's amazing too. How did you get, how did you pitch that? You're skipping all this good stuff.Jonathan Aibel (00:07:59):Ah, our agent just back then we were, we were new. I think we had a couple, we've done a, a sketch show on Nickelodeon that got us in the guild that got us an agent. And interesting. He just put us up for stuff. So one of them was this freelance of of Carlin. And one of the other things is we went to pitch Sam mm-hmm. , who it was, it was a hazard. Like he had a deadly sharp throwing stars on his table. So you'd go to like, oh, what's the paperwork? Don't touch those. They were razor sharp. And he also had a couple vicious dobermansMichael Jamin (00:08:42):In the office. Yeah, I remember that. I remember that.Jonathan Aibel (00:08:44):Then he also had, what we assumed was his story editor sitting at the table as we pitched him some story ideas. And then we left and realized, no, that was his next meeting. The next writer who's gonna pitch story idea sat at the table while we pitched ours. And then we left. And he stayed and pitched his,Michael Jamin (00:09:02):That's a littleJonathan Aibel (00:09:03):Unusual. It was a very, it was, it was a very odd thing. But that worked out in the sense that we got the freelanceMichael Jamin (00:09:10):Your scripts must have been very good then. I mean, cuzJonathan Aibel (00:09:13):I don't think they, I don't think so.Michael Jamin (00:09:15):It must have been if you would've got an agent that easily and got to be able to pitch these shows.Jonathan Aibel (00:09:19):Well, the, the agent, I don't know if it was easy. We, well, what happened was what Mo what happens to most people is you come out and you think, we need to find an agent. We need to get an agent. We're not gonna get a job without an agent. Right. And then you meet all these agents, they love you, they love your stuff, and they say, get a job. I'm happy to sign you.Michael Jamin (00:09:37):Yes.Jonathan Aibel (00:09:38):And we realized we're not going to get work, but just an agent. We need to get work somehow. And just by knowing people, talking to people, we wound up at M T V. Mm-Hmm. doing a game show.Michael Jamin (00:09:54):Which show was that?Jonathan Aibel (00:09:55):It was called Trashed. Think It finally Made it there. We just worked on the pilot and then got to know people on the, on the hallway. We share, we were in damn TV buildings. And next door were some writers on this Nickelodeon show. And a couple of the writers had just left. And someone said, oh, I hear they're, they're looking to hire. Wow. So we said, Hey, we, we've got sketches. Can we, can we meet? We the executive producer read our stuff, met with us, and said, yeah, I'll hire these guys. We went to our agent, the, the potential agent, and said, we just got offered a guild job. Do you wanna represent us? You, there's no negotiation other than you say, yeah, I think I can get my boss to sign you. Sure. And that was it. And then we were in the Guild. We were having fun writing, and I had had credits, but I, I wouldn't say we necessarily knew how to write. We knew how to be funny and come up with gags mm-hmm. . But the idea of how do you write a scene, how to you write a script was right. Was a little bit mysterious.Michael Jamin (00:11:01):But, and so you, I so you met Glen, you were just, you were, he was a coworker at when you were in your consulting firm. And then how did you both, like, did you, so you never even dreamed as a kid of being a writer. It was ne like, how did this come out of, where did this come from? This writing thing?Jonathan Aibel (00:11:14):I don't think I had any idea that people wrote for a living.Michael Jamin (00:11:20):Mm-Hmm. .Jonathan Aibel (00:11:22):Like, you didn't, you'd watch shows and you wouldn't think, I don't, I don't really know what I was thinking. Like, if I went to see a play on Broadway, I knew a human had written it, but there's something about TV where you would think like, I don't know, those are characters who would say these words and you don't think of 10 people in a room writing those words. So it wasn't until Stimson's and Seinfeld started breaking through that, I started feeling like, whoa, there's TV here that I'd wanna write. And later I found out it was because people just a few years ahead of me at Harvard,Michael Jamin (00:12:01):Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:12:01):Were writing those shows. So I was sort of thinking like, why does this feel like it's my sensibility without realizing I was kind of swimming in the same waterMichael Jamin (00:12:09):They had? You weren't on the Lampoon then. No.Jonathan Aibel (00:12:11):You didn't have a no idea that this is something,Michael Jamin (00:12:14):How did you know you were funny then? Like, you know, IJonathan Aibel (00:12:18):Mean, I, I think I always had a sense of humor and was known for being funny slash maybe sometimes disruptive, but cleverly disruptive in school. Right. Like, I was, I'd done musical theater, so I was okay fam like, I, I wasn't like unfamiliar with entertainment.Michael Jamin (00:12:40):Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:12:42):But that was different from thinking, you know, that's something you can make a living at. And then it was right around that time where these articles started coming out about the number of people who had gone from the East coast to LA and how many Letterman writers.Michael Jamin (00:12:56):Yeah.Jonathan Aibel (00:12:56):And SNL writers and Simpson's writer and Seinfeld and Frazier and Cheers and all these. That opened up my eyes to wait a minute, this is, you could make a living,Michael Jamin (00:13:07):But when you,Jonathan Aibel (00:13:07):I went to, I had no idea.Michael Jamin (00:13:09):When you quit your job, then you came to LA you'd had no job. Right. You were what? You were just like, I'm gonna live off my savings. Or what would you do?Jonathan Aibel (00:13:16):Right. We, we, we saved up from, I I, I think Glen says he sent away for grad school applications. His second day of work is how, how quickly he knew that place wasn't for him.Michael Jamin (00:13:30):He did it just .Jonathan Aibel (00:13:32):It was a little, a little later in the process, but we started writing at night. Like we found out you gotta write a specMichael Jamin (00:13:40):Script. Right. And you guys are roommates too?Jonathan Aibel (00:13:43):No. No. We, we weren't, but we wouldn't sometimes call in sick and then work on ourMichael Jamin (00:13:48):Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:13:49):Ourselves or Glen would stay home and, and turn the light onto my cubicle and put a Right. Put my suit jacket over my chair. , you know, it wasMichael Jamin (00:13:58):All these, oh my God. Jonathan Aibel (00:14:00):Our heart wasn't really in it, but we stayed and did the job and, and saved up.Michael Jamin (00:14:05):Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:14:06):So that we could move to LA And we didn't move out to LA like I think we were, we approached it, the way we approached consulting, which was this, this was my job as a consultant, was I was given a list of doctors and it, we had sent them a survey and it was go down this list, call each doctor's office and ask them if they filled out the survey. So it's like, hello, Dr. Levine, my name is John Avon. I'm calling on behalf of this. And we've sent a survey. I was just wondering if you had a chance to, to, and I would just have to do that for hours. And the skill it taught me was just pick up the phone and call people.Michael Jamin (00:14:47):Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:14:47):So when we were thinking of moving to LA, it was, oh, you should like calling Suzanne.Michael Jamin (00:14:53):Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:14:54):Instead of saying, ah, she doesn't know me. It was just, okay, she's just like a doctor. I'm calling you. She doesn't want to talk to me. She'll just, you weren'tMichael Jamin (00:15:01):To call, were intimidated at all. You, you had, you weren't intimidated at all.Jonathan Aibel (00:15:04):I don't think I knew to be intimidated. We were in Boston at the time,Michael Jamin (00:15:08):UhhuhJonathan Aibel (00:15:09):. We didn't, you weren't surrounded by people who had this dream of going to Hollywood and then came home with their tail between their legs and said, now it's awful out there. Right. It was, that place seems fun and sunshine and I knew people, people from school, people, friends of my brothers had lived were, were out there. So when we showed up, it felt like there was a, a group, there was a, you weren't alone. It was there other people here pursuing the dream, but not so many that you felt like there's no chance this is gonna happen. Like we were, I don't know if cocky is the word, but because we didn't know any better. We were just know it's gonna work outMichael Jamin (00:15:48):And itJonathan Aibel (00:15:49):We're gonna, we didn'tMichael Jamin (00:15:49):How long did it take for you to get work, but when you moved out here, it sounds like a fa it was fast.Jonathan Aibel (00:15:53):Well, we moved out in September and we got the game show started in December. And then I think amazing by the following summer we were on the Nickelodeon show.Michael Jamin (00:16:07):What show was that? What was thatJonathan Aibel (00:16:08):Called? It was called Roundhouse.Michael Jamin (00:16:10):I don't know that one.Jonathan Aibel (00:16:11):Right. Bruce Bruce Gowers who just passed away two days ago. Who did The Queen, the Bohemian Rapley video. He was the director of it.Michael Jamin (00:16:19):Oh wow.Jonathan Aibel (00:16:20):But there's a little little roundhouse trivia. It was really fun. It was a lot of in living color writers.Michael Jamin (00:16:25):Wow.Jonathan Aibel (00:16:26):Between gigs were there. So it had dancing and original music and it was a sketch show for tweens on on sncc.Michael Jamin (00:16:36):Sncc. Is that what it was? Really? Yeah. It's so funny cuz this show here was on Nick at night, which was supposed to be not Nickelodeon and Nick at night. No, it'sJonathan Aibel (00:16:43):Different.Michael Jamin (00:16:44):But it's not because it, Nick, I don't remember if Nick at night started at 8:00 PM or 9:00 PM or whatever. But see, my, my partner I siever it used to say, but it's the, it's the babysitting channel up until, you know, 8 0 1 and then it becomes racy. But the parents don't know thatJonathan Aibel (00:17:00):. Right. no one's turning you.Michael Jamin (00:17:02):Yeah. So the, we got a lot of peopleJonathan Aibel (00:17:04):From was Saturday night. Saturday night. Nick is a whole otherMichael Jamin (00:17:07):Ball game. Oh, is that what that is? Sncc? Yeah.Jonathan Aibel (00:17:10):I guess they could have also done it Sunday without changing the name. Yeah. But it was SaturdayMichael Jamin (00:17:15):Or Wednesdays. Wednesdays or Thursdays. Anything, any day that ends with an sJonathan Aibel (00:17:23):That's true. Wednesday, Wednesdays Nick.Michael Jamin (00:17:25):Yeah. Anyway, that's why we're not in the marketing department.Jonathan Aibel (00:17:29):My point though is by the time we got to King of the HillMichael Jamin (00:17:32):Yeah.Jonathan Aibel (00:17:34):We had had, we had worked on a, a show that was real old school in its joke telling, like real strong set up three a page, boom, boom, boom, boom. Then we worked on another show that was very emotional where it was single woman in the city kind of show. And that was, it wasn't, not funny, but it was as a writer there it was, wait a minute, I'm supposed to tell a story that isn't just the situation of situation comedy. It wasn't just the character loses her driver's license and has to go to the D M V and this crazy stuff happens. Mm-Hmm. , it was thinking about the, the internal life and they're Okay. That's an interesting then,Michael Jamin (00:18:23):But then when did you learn actually how to write like story, a story structure? When did, is that King of the Hill?Jonathan Aibel (00:18:29):I think so. The other, the, the show that was very joke heavy. The other thing you learn on a joke heavy show is, is the, the tricks. The okay, someone comes in and says something and then at the end of the scene someone repeats it in a callback andMichael Jamin (00:18:44):Right, right.Jonathan Aibel (00:18:45):Then people laugh and the music plays and you dissolve slowly to the next scene. And they're, they're like they're like weapons. They could be in that they could be used for good or evil.Michael Jamin (00:18:55):Right. Right. SoJonathan Aibel (00:18:57):By the time though, we got to King of the Hill, I remember pitching the very first week to Greg and you just have no idea what this show you're thinking the Simpson. So, okay. I remember we pitched something like Dale's an exterminator. So he tens a big house and then people think it's a circus and starts showing up at it.Michael Jamin (00:19:19):Oh, I like thatJonathan Aibel (00:19:20):. And Greg's like, oh, that's the little, probably by season eight that would've been a season eight idea. That's good. But in the beginning I think that's a little not observational enough. And, and, and it's sort of like, well what do you mean to define observational was the, the question like how do you find comedy out of human, actual human behavior?Michael Jamin (00:19:48):Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:19:48):In the way, how do you observe what a person would do in a, in a real life situation? And no one had really done that in animation, which was Yeah. The, I think the brilliance of Mike and Greg was to say, well, what if you take this style that's associated with unreality Right. And give it more reality than anything else you've seen in animation.Michael Jamin (00:20:09):And that's what was unusual because we used to say in many ways just king of the Hill was less of a cartoon than, than just shooting me. I mean, just shoot me was more of a cartoon. You know, it was, but, and it's unusual cause you'd say, I I even back then I was like, well why is this show animated? Like, cuz you no one's eyes popping out, no one's running on air. You know, no one's doing any Daffy Duck stuff. But I guess it was just because you could shoot it like a movie and it could be real. But you didn't have the, you didn't have the budget. WellJonathan Aibel (00:20:39):You're probably overthinking it cuz it was just the real reason is they had to deal with Mike and Mike's an animator and this is what he wanted to do.Michael Jamin (00:20:46):. I guess so. But usually why is it animated? Like, you know, otherJonathan Aibel (00:20:50):Than because Yeah. That's, that's why are, why are, why is this? It's cuz cuz Mike wanted, he saw it. No, that was his thing. And, and he didn't. And, and that's great. That's as, that's as good a reason. And how,Michael Jamin (00:21:04):How much was, and I've heard stories, but I think people wanna hear this. How involved was Mike like literally on a day-to-day basis in those early years with the show?Jonathan Aibel (00:21:13):Huh. I can't say I know the full scope of it because I'm sure he was more involved in the production,Michael Jamin (00:21:22):But he wasn't in the writer's room. I mean, I know like,Jonathan Aibel (00:21:24):No, cuz he was living in Texas.Michael Jamin (00:21:26):Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:21:27):So he would come in and then we would do the story retreats, maybe you remember. Yeah. Or we'd go to Texas and and meet with him, or he would come in or we'd go to his house. It re it was Greg on the day today. And then I don't really know what the, the communication between the two of them was. Right. I, I'm pretty sure Mike's deal was, I have a life in Texas and I don't wanna move to LA and do this grind cuz he had done that grind for Beefs and, but, and the Beavers and Butthead movie.Michael Jamin (00:22:01):Right, right.Jonathan Aibel (00:22:03):So I think that's what Greg took on.Michael Jamin (00:22:06):But yeah, he,Jonathan Aibel (00:22:06):It was a great combination.Michael Jamin (00:22:08):He have notes though. He I remember, you know, even on on the, on the audio track, you could sometimes hear him say, I'm, that that line's not right. He'd tweak a line or whatever, you know? Yeah, yeah.Jonathan Aibel (00:22:19):Yeah, you get his little I'm not gonna say that. How aboutMichael Jamin (00:22:23): not gonna do that. But, but then, okay, so then you guys rose up to the ranks cuz only in five or six years you were running the show, which is a pretty fast climb to be able to run a TV show after only that short amount of time is kind of crazy almost. You know, IJonathan Aibel (00:22:38):Think we were a and meanwhile feels like, oh, we're not getting anywhere in this town. And some of that is because you do a show. We were, we'd probably done a year of it worked under the year before it even premiered. Right. So you're putting all this into it and you don't know if it's gonna be a hit. And then the surprise was, it, it was doing really well. And then you have no time to enjoy it because you're halfway through starting season two. It was, it was both really exciting and just crazy exhausting. And itMichael Jamin (00:23:12):Was,Jonathan Aibel (00:23:13):Yeah. Like 3:00 AM And that's sort of fun sometimesMichael Jamin (00:23:19):When you're young, it's inJonathan Aibel (00:23:21):The beginning where it's, hey, it's like college, right? We're all hanging out. We're just being funny. And then you start dating and your partners saying, what time are you gonna be home? I don't know. Yeah. Or what time do you think I really, I don't know. Someone could come into this room in two minutes and say, we're good. Go home. Or someone could come in in two minutes and say, I just got Mike's notes. We need to start over. Yeah. You don't know. And that's a, when you're a staff writer, not so hard because you just do what you're told when as you move up and take on more responsibility. It, it definitely became less fun. Aspects of it were fun. Mm-Hmm. directing actors was really fun. Mm-Hmm. working with editing and storyboard artists and the animation directors fun. But the more stuff like, can I go to a dentist appointment on Wednesday? Let me see what's the staff, what, what room am I in today? Like, I, I left consulting because I didn't wanna be a, a manager. And that's wh part of show running is that, and for us, that was the, that wasn't the fun part. The fun part, as we say, Glenn and I would note you rise up and become a showrunner based on the strength of your writing. And then you get to a position where you don't have time to write anymore.Michael Jamin (00:24:41):Oh. It's not only that people, cause I people, they reach out to me all the time, you know, that I wanna be a showrunner. It's like, I just wanted to be a writer. Like, cuz be a show. It's like you just said, you, none of us become comedy writers because we wanna be managers. Like that's not, and when you're a show owner, that's what you're doing. You are managing other people. Yeah. And and, and we're not equipped, we're not prepared for it. And we don't necessarily even want to do that. And, you know, it's a, it's a, it's a hardJonathan Aibel (00:25:06):Leap. Right. And it was, it was definitely challenging also, cuz you're putting all this work in, then you realize, this isn't even my show. This is Greg and Mike's vision, and you're just trying to fulfill their vision. Right.(00:25:21):Like, I can see running my, if Im running my own show saying I love this idea and this is my baby and I'm gonna protect. And I just, I want to be the ur here. I want to see my vision through. But so much of show running isn't that at all? It's, it's, Greg would describe it as it's sort of like pottery where you would make a pot, put it on the shelf and all right, what's the next one? Sometimes they break, sometimes they're not quite formed. But you don't have time. You gotta get to the next Right. Get to make another pot.Michael Jamin (00:25:53):But do you have, and I wanna get to your film career, which is very impressive, but do you have, did you have any like, eyes to go back and do any kind of television, even creating your own show?Jonathan Aibel (00:26:03):We, after King of the Hill, we, we wrote a few pilots. We were at Fox and writing pilots. And it was a weird time in TV where every year Fox would say, we don't want single camera shows. We need, we need Multicam, we need to pair them with whateverMichael Jamin (00:26:20):Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:26:21):Hit they had there. We need another, we need to pair this. So we'd write a multi cam and then they would only pick up single camera shows. But I think that happened two or three years or whatMichael Jamin (00:26:29):Yeah. What's,Jonathan Aibel (00:26:30):What's going on? So we started realizing, I, I think we were kind of spoiled by King of the Hill. It was, it was just creatively, it was just an amazing show. And so fun to write those characters and work with those actors and work with that staff that after that it was, I don't, it's hard to just go and do sitcoms. I mean, like, I enjoyed the form, but I couldn't see myself spending 10 more years doing that. And it felt like the the air was coming out of that format.Michael Jamin (00:27:07):Then how did you, how did you jump into features?Jonathan Aibel (00:27:10):Well, it started because King, as I mentioned, king of the Hill was not a guild go in the first years mm-hmm. . So we're doing it, we're in our second or third year, and we realized we're gonna lose our health insurance. What, what? I mean like, it was a very adult sounding realization of, oh, health insurance. What I, I hadn't even been thinking. Because when you're in the Writer's Guild, it's amazing. On a time I was 23, I had health insurance.Michael Jamin (00:27:40):But you had health through the Animators Guild though, through tag.Jonathan Aibel (00:27:43):We weren't animated animation. We were No, it was not unfamiliarMichael Jamin (00:27:47):Anybody. Oh no. Wow. I didn't know that.Jonathan Aibel (00:27:51):So we said to our agent, we need, we need either freelance episodesMichael Jamin (00:28:00):Mm-Hmm. Jonathan Aibel (00:28:01):Or we need to write a feature. And she said, well, do you have a feature spec? And we said, no. And then, and to her credit, she said, there's this director, he's been hired to direct a reboot of Freddy, or of Friday, it was Freddy versus Jason.Michael Jamin (00:28:20):Mm-Hmm. .Jonathan Aibel (00:28:21):And he loves King of the Hill. And basically it was, can you give him a fun, fun, he's got an idea for story fun characters that he can then kill. Like it was right around Scream had come out. So there was this, the, the Birth of Hard comedy.Michael Jamin (00:28:38):Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:28:39):So he said, yeah, we can do that. And we, we met him, we got along, he loved the show. We, we love working with him. So we wrote this script, which then, which then didn't get produced. But it was, oh, this features is kind of like writing King of the Hill, but longer.Michael Jamin (00:28:59):Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:28:59):You just kind of write King of the Hill and then you keep writing and keep writing and then you have a hundred pages of King of the Hill instead of 22. Right. But the three act structures similar. And the idea of thinking about a character and how do you write a character, we realized it's kind of more cinematic than episodic television. Like the things we were learning were more applicable to writing features than writing sitcoms at that point.Michael Jamin (00:29:28):Yeah.Jonathan Aibel (00:29:29):So when our television deal was nearing its clothes, and we were thinking, do we renew it? Do we throw our hats out there as, as showrunners for hire? And we thought, you know, let's, let's write, maybe we can write some more features. And we just started getting some rewrites, doing some originals.Michael Jamin (00:29:50):Mm-Hmm. .Jonathan Aibel (00:29:52):And you can start making a, a decent living writing movies and never get made.Michael Jamin (00:29:57):Oh, for sure. At least you could then. I don't know if it's nowJonathan Aibel (00:29:59):Yes. Yes. Then you then you could. But it was super frustrating. Yeah. Because everything would be about to go and then there would be a reason mm-hmm. it wouldn't go. And there were none of those reasons were under your control. And you, you could, you would do a great job and everyone would love it. And then, oh, this movie just came out. Yeah. Basically the same premise. So, sorry.Michael Jamin (00:30:20):Yeah.Jonathan Aibel (00:30:21):And that's when we had been meeting this, this fantastic exec name Christine Belsen, who was then at Henson.Michael Jamin (00:30:30):Mm-Hmm.Jonathan Aibel (00:30:30):. And we were huge Muppet fans. Right. And she brought us in and we totally hit it off. And she said, I wanna do a Muppet kung fu movie.Michael Jamin (00:30:39):UhhuhJonathan Aibel (00:30:40):. And we thought, oh my God, yeah, that would be so great. Yes. Sign us up for that. And we said, but you know, we read that that Dreamers is doing this Jack Black, kung fu kung fu Panda movie. And she said, oh, those movies take forever. I don't think it's, I I wouldn't worry about that. So then we don't hear from her for a while. We're worried what's going on. Then we get a call from her. Okay. So I moved over to Dreamworks and we're looking for writers who come from Panda.Michael Jamin (00:31:08):Wow.Jonathan Aibel (00:31:08):And we said, oh, okay. So it was just a case where it started off simple enough, they asked us to come in for just two weeks of consulting to see what they had underway and talk about the story. Cuz it was in a roughMichael Jamin (00:31:25):But had be different. Dreamworks has a whole different system over there. So what do you mean consultant? Cause I know they worked very differently from other studios.Jonathan Aibel (00:31:33):Well, so there had been writers who, well kind of what happens is, you know, king, king of the hill, the Simpsons though, shows very writer driven. Right. It doesn't have time. You don't have time to be anything other than ri writer driven. So the animators are given the script and the audio. Right. And they're So draw this,Michael Jamin (00:31:54):Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.Jonathan Aibel (00:32:18):And in feature animation, Dreamworks especially, they may take that script and they'll take tens, the first 10 scenes of act, the first half the movie and give it to 10 different storyboard artists who will take that and read it and say, I see what this scene is doing, but maybe I can do it this way. And they will draw something and write it and animate and, and storyboard it and often record the dialogue themselves. And it's sort of like almost like what is it? 32 short films about Glen Gould where you end up with these almost mini movies in the beginning of a movie anyway. Like at the start of a development process where you would watch this movie and say, okay, that PO is different from this PO who's different from that po. And you watch it and you think, this doesn't make any sense, but I can start to see a story in there.(00:33:13):And then they'll do it iteratively. So then you're on that scene there, that moment I really understood who the character was. So more of that moment. So by way of saying, you may have someone who came in and wrote a script, but they might be long gone at this point cuz now it's been torn up it's storyboard and now you're walk working off transcripts where they've written down what's on screen. And that's what you're rewriting off of. So by the team time we came in, there was like a movie ish. Like you could, there was something in black and white you could watch mm-hmm. that everyone knew wasn't necessarily coherent. But the point isn't coherence. The point is what, what jumps out at you? Like we watched and said, oh, I think what you're doing is, it's kind of like a Cinderella story, right?(00:34:06):He's the guy in the beginning who wants to go to the kung fu ball mm-hmm. and can't go. And then the Prince points at him, and then he goes on this thing, and now the bad guy's coming for him and he doesn't know. And is he the chosen one? Or isn't he the chosen one? It's like those are like, now it's, it feels a little glib for me to say that as if it were obvious. It, it was, it's it was not it obvious. It's, it's, you're sitting there thinking, is it this story? No. Maybe it's the story. Some of it is, there are, there are two, Jack, Jack has, Jack Black has two kind of two great. Our type of our typical characters. One is the high fidelity like the jerk Yeah. Who deep down is suffering from low self-esteem. Right. And then he has the friendly guy who deep down is suffering from low self-esteem.(00:35:00):Right. So some of the, the production of the, the development of Kung Fu Panda was, which, which Jack is in our movie. Is he the guy who's chosen to be this kung fu guy and then realizes, oh my God, this is great. Now I don't have to work anymore. Now I can just go to the palace and hang out and relax and, and live it up until he finds out there's a responsibility. So there was some of that version of the movie. Then there's the guy who's wishes more than anything. He can be the kung fu master, but knows because of he's a big panda. That's impossible. Cuz Panas don't do kung fu and then his dream comes true. And then he has to, you know, that's what the movie ended up being. But when you started seeing that character in the opening reel, you'd say, whoa, I, I wanna, I, I wanna know more Right about that. And that's the magic of these time. You hadMichael Jamin (00:35:51):To sense of it. But see that's what I'm, I'm curious though, cuz for me it seems counterintuitive. It feel, it feels like you're putting the cart ahead of the horse. It's like, you know, I wonder if, was that, did you feel the same way? Because usually, you know, okay, we have an idea. We come, we have Ari, the writers come up with a th a thread, you know, through line and there's a story and Well,Jonathan Aibel (00:36:09):It's, it's inefficient for sure. But I think you can look at animated movies for the most part as a genre and say for the most part they're really well constructed.Michael Jamin (00:36:22):Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:36:23):And I think this is, this is why, because if a writer's gonna, it's very hard to create a great movie off of six drafts, even eight drafts, 10 drafts. Mm-Hmm. and, and just see it on paper and say, yeah, that's gonna work. Because no one knows how to read a script.Michael Jamin (00:36:43):I see.Jonathan Aibel (00:36:44):Like, even as a professional writer, I don't think I could read a script and say, this is gonna be an amazing movie. You can say this is a great script. Right. But is it gonna be an amazing movie? I don't know, an animation, you're making the movie as you're writing the movie, so it's not you, it makes sense. Theoretical. Is this gonna be good? It's ah, I, I see that moment. I see Poe and his father. Right. Having that moment where Poe is afraid to tell his dad what he wants to do with his life. I see. That's one thing. Makes sense. How do we build on that?Michael Jamin (00:37:17):Right. That makes sense to So it's very collaborative with you and the animators then.Jonathan Aibel (00:37:21):Oh yeah. The storyboard team, the directors, the producer, the actors, Uhhuh . It was it very different from TV animation. Right.Michael Jamin (00:37:32):SoundsJonathan Aibel (00:37:32):Very different. And I, our, our, one of our first the first moment we realized that was the producer said, I I want you to sit in a room with this guy, a storyboard artist and talk about the scene and what it could be. So we sat with him and we worked line by line. We hopped it and said, it could be this could be this. Yeah. I could draw this, do this. Said great, we're gonna write it up. We wrote it up, gave it into him. Three weeks later we go to watch the scene. It's nothing at all we discussed and went to the producer, but a, a thing. She said, yeah, I know, but I know he's kind of out there. And I wanted to see what he would take your stuff and give you, you know, if you, if all you want, if all you're expecting is the best version of what you've already done, you're closing off the chance that you'll be surprised by something.Michael Jamin (00:38:24):Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:38:25):So that's cool. On the other hand, sometimes in their scenes where you just say, can you just please do the, the pages? Right. Like, we've thought a lot about this. We understand. And there's some scenes in that first movie, which went pretty much from our pages to the final version. Cuz they were just compact. They made sense. Right. There wasn't a lot of room, but there wasn't a need for a lot of exploration. It was okay, that works. So let's just get that right going and move on to the theMichael Jamin (00:38:52):Others. So they brought you in under contract for a couple of weeks just to see how you would respond to the animators?Jonathan Aibel (00:38:59):Yeah, we had a after, well, no, to see what we would, it wasn't a trial. It was, they thought in 10 days we would give them an outline that they could work off of.Michael Jamin (00:39:12):But even still, you, they, they knew that they would probably go off via the reservation and you'd be required to Yeah. But that'sJonathan Aibel (00:39:19):Collaborate more. That's, but I think that happened a lot. It wasn't, it was more of then when we pitched our take on it to Jeffrey Katzenberg and he said, great, when you, when can you guys start writing Uhhuh. ? Okay. And then the other people lo looked at each other like, oh, I guess we, I guess we should probably get that, put that deal in place. So then we wrote a draftMichael Jamin (00:39:38):Mm-Hmm. .Jonathan Aibel (00:39:40):And then they took the draft and then started going through that process of tearing it apart. And at, at which point they realized it would probably be helpful to have us around. And I think it, what helped is that coming from tv, we, we knew storyboards, we knew how to read storyboards. We knew what happens in an editing room and how actors perform. Right. So we came to it with production skills or an, an understanding of the process that that helped us come in and say, oh, I think you could, you can cut a few frames there and actually know what we were talking about. At, at the same time, the, the big difference was television is it's a, it's a sprint as you know. Yeah. It's, you need to get this done because the actors are gonna be here at 10:00 AM to read this and record this.(00:40:35):So you need something for them. So we were approached feature animation, we gotta get this done, we gotta get this done. And then what you realize is that you, that's the exact wrong way to do because you, you get it all done now then when stuff starts changing, you've already written stuff that's, it's obsolete before anyone has seen it. Right. It's like animation is best. I think it's like, it's a marathon of sprints where we need, this scene has to go into production and Jack is coming in Thursday to record this. We need these three pages done. All right, we'll get it done, we'll get it done. Great. Now in six weeks, we're gonna need sequence 1500 going into rough layout though. That's the next one. I know it's,Michael Jamin (00:41:21):But you're working off an an outline. You know what the story is, right?Jonathan Aibel (00:41:24):You do and you don't. Isn't that, I know that's a weird thing to say, but you, Lenny, I can't tell you the number of boards there that would say big battle, like act three, big battle you know, wrap up epilogue.Michael Jamin (00:41:39):Is this the way animation movies were done like at Disney back in the day? Is this where they're getting this from?Jonathan Aibel (00:41:45):It's possible. I I think what where it comes from is that what's your expense, your greatest expense of time. And therefore money is the animator, the person at Disney drawing the cell mm-hmm. at Dreamworks. That final, the final editor moving frame by frame. That takes a lot of time. And it is such a skill and the people who do it are so brilliant that it's not like you can say we need six more animators who can capture Poe. It's, there's this guy Dan, Dan Wagner, just a brilliant animator and he was the one who could give Poe his soul.(00:42:29):Right. So you only get so much Dan. So you don't want to give Dan 10 scenes to do and say, we're not sure if these are all gonna work. But, so you are not giving the animators the scenes until they're ready at the same time. The animators can only do so much at the same time. So so while they're working on one scene, there's no reason to have the other scenes done. So it's sort of like you back, you back up into the process and you'd say, well if they can only animate these this much now mm-hmm. , well let's keep working on those other scenes and make them better and keep playing with them until it's too late. And then we'll, we'll turn 'em around. Right. So you really, you have the time to get it right. And if you said no, let's rush that. We, we gotta get All right. Now there's no reason to.Michael Jamin (00:43:16):It sounds like this cuz knowing how you guys ran King of the Hill, it sounds like this is like the perfect fit for you because you guys would often rewrite the hell out of a scene trying different ways and just experimenting.Jonathan Aibel (00:43:26):That was, I I think Thank you. I think it was, it, it it is a good fit for us to, to have said, okay, we've written that scene. There, there are a lot of exercises that are, are kind of cool that you can use, which is stuff like, well let's write the opposite. Right? You have someone come into a scene who's really excited, like, well, what if they came into the scene feeling the other way and that you flipped. You kind of have that, the opportunity to exploreMichael Jamin (00:43:58):More. Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:43:59):And then, and know that there's no punishment for it because the whole point is to experiment.Michael Jamin (00:44:05):Right. That's the point. So did they keep you under, how does it work? Do they keep you under contract at that point, Dreamworks, to do other movies? Or are you constantly pitching them to get assigned other projects orJonathan Aibel (00:44:17):That No, we had, we had a, it was great in that it started off, I think it was, we were there four days a weekMichael Jamin (00:44:25):Mm-Hmm. Jonathan Aibel (00:44:26):And I think at the time we were in person then it would be three, then after six months, three days a week, as there's less to change, they need less abuse. So then it was two days a week, then one day a week. And then at the same time we were doing other rewrites in other studios. And I think it was when we got down to one day a week, they said, you know, we have this smoothie monsters versus aliens when you wanna work on that. Right.Michael Jamin (00:44:49):So you were never squeeze.Jonathan Aibel (00:44:51):We were one day monsters. Four days.Michael Jamin (00:44:53):All right. So you were alwaysJonathan Aibel (00:44:54):Kind. Yeah, always. Show by show.Michael Jamin (00:44:56):I see. You're always jumping. Right. So it wasJonathan Aibel (00:44:58):Never, and then, and it, it was nice cuz you know, you don't wanna, we liked it because it led us take the projects that spoke to us that Right. Looked like they were gonna be fun. While also, like, the great thing about Panda was it was a hit came out. It was a hit. And when you've written a movie, it's a hit. People want you to write their movies. Right. So it, and and also people want you to write movies similar to the movie that was just a hit.Michael Jamin (00:45:28):Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:45:29):So it didn't matter that we had done King The Hill or other stuff. It was, oh, they, they wrote Fu Pan, they should write the Chipmunks movies. We'll offer that to them.Michael Jamin (00:45:38):Right. Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:45:39):So talking Animal, oh, here's another talking animal.Michael Jamin (00:45:42):So did you have toJonathan Aibel (00:45:43):Ever Thenn Bozer,Michael Jamin (00:45:46):Did you have to pitch, when you go on further assignments, are they pretty much yours because of, or do you have to pitch? Do you have to win that assignment?Jonathan Aibel (00:45:54):It's always a little of both. I mean, look, we were very, we were very lucky in that they weren't bake offs where Yeah. Six people are coming in to pitch this. It was, I think that the Chipmunks people really like Kung Fu Panda. It was just a rewrite. Can you come? It was over Christmas.Michael Jamin (00:46:16):UhhuhJonathan Aibel (00:46:17):. So I think that that definitely helped that they found us saying, yeah, we'll give up your, our holiday to, to write these pages for you.Michael Jamin (00:46:24):Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:46:25):But then the, the luck was these were, these became franchises. So then they come you for Comfort Panda Two and Comfort Panda Three and Chipmunks three. Right. And, and then we through people knew what Dreamwork got to SpongeBob. So then you'd do SpongeBob to second SpongeBob movie that led to the third SpongeBob movie.Michael Jamin (00:46:44):I didn't even mention those. Cause that's not even on your I M D B. We'll have to update that when we get off the, the Zoom. Yeah. What update your page? I didn't know any of this. I didn't know you did the I didn't know you did that. And so, okay. Because that's a big deal. Cause I, I remember, you know, when Si and I, we did, we did a couple of movies. We sold a couples, they didn't get made. We sold a couple movies and then we were all we're brought into you know, we didn't realize they were bake offs. We didn't, so we, we pitched for, you know, a couple big companies, I don't have to mention what they are. And, and we're told Yeah, you got the, you got it. You got it. And then only to discover that someone else got it. We didn't even know o other people were trying to get, like, we had no idea. And that's a lot. You're talking about months and months of heartbreaking wasted work and then the project never even made. So, but you don't really have it's true to deal with that True. Because of your level, you know. Yes,Jonathan Aibel (00:47:34):Yes and no. The the no is if they're, if you've worked with them on Kung fu Panda one, two, and three, there's a good chance they'll come to you for Kung fu Panda four.Michael Jamin (00:47:46):Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:47:47):So, and if you hit it off, feel like they may say, come in with some ideas and they like an idea. So they're not just saying, here's the deal before you've pitched anything. So there were meetings, but you know, they know you can deliver. That's kind of the main thing. Right. If it's people who you don't really know, then yeah. It's, they're rebooting this franchise and their hearing takes. And what we've learned, actually the hard way is if you're going to put yourself in that situation, you want to put as, I don't wanna say as little work as possible. You want to, you wanna do the right amount of work. That's the the best way where, but it's, we've, we've gone in and we've pitched I know, but we've gone in where we've pitched, you pitched for 20 minutes and then you realize by the second sentence you said the words they don't want to hear like, oh, that's not the kind of movie they want to do at all.(00:48:47):Right. And we've learned a better strategies to go and say, here, I I understand you wanna do a silly putty movie. I'm, I'm totally making this up, but here's, you could go this way where Silly Putty, it's a revenge story where it's a John Wick me silly putty. Right. Or it's the origin story of how a serious putty became silly putty because of a, of a family tragedy. And he's the clown who lasts through to you . Like, you know, each of these is an archetype movie. Right. And then it's, I don't know if any of those strike, well we kind of do like that. It's like, okay, okay, well we'll come back to you with that. It'sMichael Jamin (00:49:23):Interesting cuz you set the terms then over the pitch chart. Cuz that's not usually how we go in. We, here's the, here's the take, here's our take. And then, you know, you could be your, you could be completely off. I didn't know you had a choice.Jonathan Aibel (00:49:33):Well, this is a new, this is a new, this is a new realization. Uhhuh having, because you know, kind of what's happened is after doing a lot of these movies, you start to think, okay, I like this. I I know what I'm doing. What's something I don't really know how to do that I haven't done before mm-hmm. . And that's the type of movie where a person isn't necessarily gonna say, Hmm, get me the guys who did Kung Panda. Right. So you gotta hustle for those little more. And those were the ones where I think we were over preparing for many of them by saying we're gonna blow 'em away with the le attention to detail. Yeah. And especially in a Zoom era where you blow 'em away with the tension detail, they're thinking is I just need three sentences to bring the boss. Really? And it's hard because as storytellers you sometimes feel like, I can't, I don't, I'm sorry, I cannot pitch this idea unless I understand the character arts and Yeah. Right. The three acts and you're think, you know, maybe sometimes you can go in and say, and then in the third act there's a huge battle in which the forces of evil have to go against the forces ofMichael Jamin (00:50:39):I see. I would be worried about pitching something that I didn't know how to actually break. You know what I'm saying? Like, youJonathan Aibel (00:50:43):Know. Yes, I know. I, I you eventually, you just kind of have to have confidence and say, you know what, we'll figure something out. We'll figure, it's hard. It's really hard to, even at this point we'll go into a rewrite and say, what is that third act set piece? I don't know, but we'll, we'll, we'll figure it out. And it's in the back of your head thing if I don't get that.Michael Jamin (00:51:06):Yeah. Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:51:08):And then one day it'll be like, oh, wait a minute. Well, what if this happened? Because we just like, it will, it will come to you. And I think it's, it's a little, maybe this is the animation experience. It's a little foolish to even think I know what the perfect act three is before I've actually written Acts one and two.Michael Jamin (00:51:28):Yeah. But you andJonathan Aibel (00:51:29):Instead rely on your instincts and your experienceMichael Jamin (00:51:32):Wanna build to something you wanna, I I it's so, I'm, I'm telling you how to do it. I have no idea how to do it.Jonathan Aibel (00:51:37):No, but, but, but of course you will build to it, you know, you need to build to something, but you may not know the ingredients yet. Like, you'll be writing something and say, well, I'll give you a good example. In, in Conco Panda, we wound up having this, this pose, big realization. Mm-Hmm. that, can I give spoilers after 15 years after movies opened?Michael Jamin (00:51:59):I believe. I believe so. Okay.Jonathan Aibel (00:52:01):So Pose opened the scroll in it's blank, and he realizes he's failed. And his father says to him, it's okay, you can be a noodle old man just like me. And by the way, it's time. I told you the secret ingredient in my suit. And the secret ingredient is nothing. There is no secret ingredient. It was just to make something special, you just have to believe it's special. And really, that was just a joke about his father, who in the first scene we wrote that, oh, that'd be funny if he has a secret ingredient soup. And later we find out there is no secret ingredient. It's just a marketing gimmick. And it wasn't until he got to the later scene where someone, I think this bill Damascus, his name, he is, he was then the executive of dreamworks. And he said, I, I, I like what you're doing there.(00:52:49):You're kind of making comparison between the scroll being blank and the soup, not really having the spec, the specialness, it's that's it into here. And we said, that's not at all what we're, is that what we're doing? That is what we're doing. You know, like, I don't know if we consciously did that or everyone working on the movie was putting that stuff in there. But once, so if we had started with, what is it? We never would've gotten there. But like, it's funny you were talking about ingredients, but we had these ingredients of the father, the soup. We had this scroll that was blank, and it took a whole bunch of time. And thinking for a, a person to look at that with fresh eyes and say, I think you've given yourself the moment you need to do the rest of the movie.Michael Jamin (00:53:37):Do you think this is how they tell their movies at at Pixar? They have a different process. Do you thinkJonathan Aibel (00:53:43):That I I don't, I don't know all I've, all I know of the process there is, they seem to draw on tablecloths.Michael Jamin (00:53:51):Is that Oh, really?Jonathan Aibel (00:53:51):That I don't know. That was at, there's some documentary where they have this, this famous tablecloth that's amazing. Where it was, they weren't, the Brain Trust was meeting. And I said, well, here's some movies I think we could do. There's what if tos come to life? What, what if bugs come to life? What if Bumper Beyond that, I don't really know their process. It's probably somewhat similar.Michael Jamin (00:54:13):So. Interesting. And when you work, you know, you're, and I'm jumping around, but your partner, Glen, he doesn't, he lives not in la So how do you guys do, what do you work in on Zoom? Is that how you guysJonathan Aibel (00:54:24):Yeah, we, oh, we've been Skyped for, for years and years. Just, just audio. Just, I'm a, I'm Aist and I'll tell you why. JustMichael Jamin (00:54:32):Yeah, go on. And why just audio?Jonathan Aibel (00:54:34):I'm a Skype because Skype lets you Skype out. So you can call people's cell phones. So if our agent or lawyer or an executive or I know we need them to take a meeting, he's just stays in my ear and All right, let me patch him in and then you can Okay. Call. also we started before Zoom,Michael Jamin (00:54:49):Right?Jonathan Aibel (00:54:50):So we're And why no video?Michael Jamin (00:54:52):Yeah.Jonathan Aibel (00:54:54):Is, initially it was for bandwidth reasons. It was laggy at Skype at one point, and Glen was out in the sticks and didn't haveMichael Jamin (00:55:03):Because you could have used a cell, a phone. You know that Skype without video. It was a phone.Jonathan Aibel (00:55:08):Yeah. Yeah. There are a lot of other things we could do, but we realized I don't need to see him staring at me. I, I don't, I, and I, I'm not like the old married couple. We're okay with the silence.Michael Jamin (00:55:21):And do you,Jonathan Aibel (00:55:22):When you're going like this and you're not hearing anything,Michael Jamin (00:55:24):Are you on final draft collaborator? Is that what you're doing? Or what? No. Well, how'sJonathan Aibel (00:55:29):That? I know there's a lot of, there's a lot of that You could, we could do. And if it's real, really important, we might say, oh, let's, like now we outline on, on Google Docs.Michael Jamin (00:55:41):Okay.Jonathan Aibel (00:55:41):Instead of sending Word documents back and forth, is this, are you working on Tuesday's version? No, this is Thursday's. Wait. Now you, now you can see it. And that's useful. But I, I feel like daring, there are two ways to write. One is staring at the words and the other is staring at the sky. Right. And one day, some days I feel like doing one Glen feels like one sometimes the other like, I don't want to even know what's there. I just want to, but who's coming up with stuff? In, well, hopefully Glen, there have been times where we'll come up with a whole thing and then say, you got that. I thought you were typingMichael Jamin (00:56:20):.Jonathan Aibel (00:56:21):So we, we usually sa

D:Ream is a Northern Irish/English pop rock and dance group. They had a UK No. 1 hit with "Things Can Only Get Better" in 1994. Eight more top 40 hits followed, including "U R the Best Thing" and "Shoot Me with Your Love". They released three albums, two of which reached the UK top five. The group had an all-male line-up which varied in number, but mainly centred on lead singer Peter Cunnah. The live band included keyboard player Brian Cox, who is now a renowned physicist and television presenter; although Cunnah, as the only official member, normally played keyboards (along with all other instruments) on studio recordings.D:Ream first came to prominence with the euphoric single "U R the Best Thing" in the summer of 1992, an anthemic piano-house tune which did not chart but thanks to a Sasha remix was Pete Tong's Essential Tune of 1992. "Things Can Only Get Better", released in the spring of 1993, gave the group their first chart success. "U R The Best Thing" was eventually re-released in April 1993 and gave the group their second chart hit. The band were nominated for Best Dance act in the MTV Europe music awards in 1994 and for Best Single in the Brit Awards in 1995.The band's first album, D:Ream on Volume 1, which was promoted for almost two years, produced seven singles ("Star" and "I Like It" came on a joint release as a double A-side). It was the track "Things Can Only Get Better" that gave them UK success and international fame. After they supported Take That on their tour, "Things Can Only Get Better" topped the UK Singles Chart, in early 1994. Originally released in early 1993, when the track reached No. 24 in the UK, it was later adopted by the Labour Party as their theme for the 1997 UK General Election, and consequently released for the third time; this time reaching No. 19 on the UK chart.Between 1992 and 1997, the band released two studio albums, (D:Ream on Volume 1 and World), ten different singles (two of which were released three times), and an official greatest hits album, (The Best of D:Ream). The group's record label released their first compilation, The Best of D:Ream, in 1997 instead of their third studio album, which remains unreleased. In 2006, a second collection was released, for The Platinum Collection series.When D:Ream broke through into the charts, the band's main touring line-up consisted of core member Peter Cunnah (vocalist, songwriter), Al Mackenzie (musician), and Cian McCarthy. Other main performers included physicist Brian Cox who played keyboards for several years while working towards his physics PhD before being replaced by Richard Garbutt, Derek Chai on bass, and drummer Mark Roberts. The group also used a number of guest vocalists – such as T.J. Davis, who is featured as co-lead vocalist on "The Power (Of All the Love in the World)", one of the singles taken from their second album, as well as providing backing vocals on many other songs. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Impressionist and Comedian Frank Caliendo is this week's guest on the podcast. Join Michael and Frank as they discuss Frank's career and his advice for emerging comedians.Show NotesFrank Caliendo's Website - https://www.frankcaliendo.com/Frank Caliendo on Twitter - https://twitter.com/FrankCaliendoFrank Caliendo on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/frankcaliendo/Frank Caliendo on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/frankcaliendoMichael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAutomated TanscriptsFrank Caliendo (00:00:00):So I thought put Seinfeld on drugs and the d the, the bit was why do my fingers look like little people? Who are these people in the door and they're talking to each other? They're probably talking about me when I say it. Talking. I, oh, Jerry, oh, I somebody. Hey Jerry, you look like you've been seeing little people on your fingers. It's, you just let that camera and then the end, it was Newman and Newman's like, hello Jerry. And she, we've lost a sort of Jerry Garcia Grateful Dead commitment of stamps. You would see . So he'd lick the stamps. You know, that was the,Michael Jamin (00:00:33):You're listening to screenwriters. Need to hear this with Michael Jamin.(00:00:41):Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome back to Screenwriters. Need to hear this. And I got another great guest today. I'm really racking up the guests. Everyone. before we begin, make sure everyone to get on my my watch list is my free newsletter, by the way. Goes out every friday at michaeljamin.com/watchlist for tips for screenwriters, actors, and directors and all that. And now let's bring him on. Let's bring on my next, my next guest who I met actually many years ago when I was running a show. He's, the show was called Glen Martin. And we, we, this is how it works. And, and Frank, don't worry, I'll give you a minute to talk. I know you're talking about the bit here.Frank Caliendo (00:01:15):No,Michael Jamin (00:01:16):I love it. This is how, this is how it works in animation. It's actually a fun job for, for actors. So basically the casting director, we don't even audition. Can't we say this is what we need and the cast director just bring somebody in and, and and if they're terrible, you know, we just get somebody else to replace them. And so in this role we needed this is we needed someone who could do an impression. And I don't remember what the character was. There's probably some politician. It might have been Obama, it might have been George Bush, someone like that. And so she had our casting director was Linda Lamont, Montana. And she goes, I have just the guy. And she brings him in. And it was, it was Frank, Frank Callo, thank you so much for being on the, my podcast, Frank.Frank Caliendo (00:01:55):And now I'm back. How about that? Huh?Michael Jamin (00:01:57):Now you're back. And he killed it. Now Frank, is this your, Frank has got Frank, you know, the, and, and, and the Game of Thrones. There was like the the man of, what was it? The god of many faces. Is that what it was? You're, you're the man. You're the god of many voices.Frank Caliendo (00:02:11):I'll take it. Yeah, I'llMichael Jamin (00:02:12):Take, take it.Frank Caliendo (00:02:12):It it's like six and then I just kind of do variations on it.Michael Jamin (00:02:16):I don't think so. Dude, you are amazing. You are amazing at how you do that. I want to get into like how you actually do that.Frank Caliendo (00:02:23):Well, there, there, okay. So let's, let's get into, first of all, I didn't believe you that I did the show that you said I did, cuz I kind of remember Glen Martin. D d s I remember getting the sides for it. I remember getting an email about it, but I don't remember doing it cuz we talked at some point that you were doing a live a live stream. And you're like I think that's where it was. And I was like, you said, oh, Frank, you did a thing with me. Or maybe we just instant message back and forth. I'm like, you're crazy. I don't remember doing that. I just looked it up on I mdb and I did do it. You did do it. It was George Bush and I guess John Madden. Go figure. You probably Madden happy for Georges Bush. So you wrote in the John Madden thing, I'm guessing. Michael Jamin (00:03:09):It's so funny. It's so funny that you chose to forget that you were on Glen Martin. How, howFrank Caliendo (00:03:13):She, I don't remember a lot of stuff and I don't even do any drugs, but it's like, I don't, I don't remember. I remember it was like a declamation kind of thing, right?Michael Jamin (00:03:19):Yeah. Yes. Right. And it was, that was Kevin Neen. He, he the, he the guy. So, yeah. And you, you crushed it and you did. No, it wasn't John. John.Frank Caliendo (00:03:29):I crushed it so much. I've never worked with you again. That's butMichael Jamin (00:03:32):I haven't done not have animation since. No,Frank Caliendo (00:03:34):That's true, jerk.Michael Jamin (00:03:35):I did Barry for 10 minutes though. But youFrank Caliendo (00:03:38):Know, it's funny. Here's a funny thing though. This is a funny thing, is that I haven't done a lot of animation. So you think of me as animation because of the voices. And that's the thing that's always weird. And that's why one of the reasons I didn't do a ton of voice acting. One, I wasn't as good at it as some other people. But two, it was like, because once you do that, it's amazing how people think of you in like, I'm in a couple of different tunnels for pi. It, it's, you know, the pi, the holes of the pigeon. I am a, people think of me as a sports guy and an impressionist. So it's like, oh, we, that's all he can do. So they never, so I, it's so funny because recently people have been like, ah, you wouldn't do this little partner move.(00:04:19):I'm like, yeah, I would, I do, do I have to do an impression? No. Oh good. Are you gonna rewrite the part? So I do impressions? No. Perfect. Interesting. That's what I wanna do. Now I do this, the impression stuff to keep the lights on. I mean, that's what I do on TikTok and Instagram and stuff like that. It's, there's some fun with it too. But that's the amazing thing is people start to get, I think I saw you do something recently where you said, you know, beat the dead horse. Right? You're like, it can Oh yeah. Do the thing. Do the thing you're known for . Yes. Keep doing it. Keep doing. I did it for 20 years andMichael Jamin (00:04:52):Well, I'm telling, and I'm talking about beginning people, but Yeah. But for you I can understand.Frank Caliendo (00:04:55):Absolutely. It's, it's, it's, and then you, you then you get to that point where you're like, I gotta do some other, some other stuff. And it's so funny because then people don't want you for anything else. Right. And then you go back and do some of the stuff again. But there's like two careers. And I've heard David Spade talking to those other people. Probably talked about it too. But I used to say this until I heard David Spade say it too. And then I'm like, oh, people think I was just taking it from David Spade. But it was, you spend the first career, you have two careers, the first career pigeonholing yourself, getting known, doing something, Uhhuh . And then the second career is being able to do something else, right? Like getting outside of that. So I had the first one. So I'm fighting in that little bit of that second one.Michael Jamin (00:05:33):Well, you know, so I, I wrote for Spade twice on just Shoot Me. And then later on Rules of engagement. So I'm just curious, what does he think is, what is his second career? What was he talking about?Frank Caliendo (00:05:41):Well, I I I just saw it in a, you know, I, I worked with him recently and didn't bring it up because I was scared of him. No. Why would you be scared of David SP's scared of David? Like, I tower over David sp five, six. No I'm trying to think. It was just something I saw him talk about on a talk show. And I, you know, it was one of those things I'm like, ah man, somebody much more famous than me is talking about this. So I don't know whatMichael Jamin (00:06:07):Thing you'd like to do. Well, I mean, you're amazing at pressure. I can see why you might wanna do something up, but what is it acting? I mean, you know,Frank Caliendo (00:06:13):It's just acting in small parts, you know, just small things because one, people think you want to only do big things and carry a show. Right. I don't really even have any interest in that. I don't even, I, I don't even wanna carry a show Uhhuh. Cause that's, I I I don't feel like my acting is at that level where I, anytime I've ever wanted to do something in Hollywood, I've always wanted to surround myself with good people. And they get confused when you try to do that. Yeah. They're like, why would you want somebody else to Well, cause I want it to be as funny as possible. I grew up, I grew up playing sports. When you have a good team, you do your part on the team. When I had Frank tv it was my show that came after Mad tv. It was shortened by the writer strike and it had some struggles and stuff like that. But it was one of those things where and it wasn't that good. And when it was finally put together, I was amazed. Cuz we had great writers and they would do it. They would pieces John Bowman that were Bowman and Matt Wickline.Michael Jamin (00:07:09):Yeah.Frank Caliendo (00:07:09):Great writers. Brenda Hay king and Lance Crowder. All these guys, like people Rachel Ramas, there were really great people Yeah. Involved in the show. But then by the time it was cut and put on tv, all the air was taken out. It was boo boo, boo boo boom. And you know, when that happens, there's no setups. It's all punchlines and you look like you're trying too hard. Yeah. That's, you know, you and I just didn't have, I'm, I'm not enough of a fighter. You need somebody who's gonna fight for you and do somebody who's gonna have the vision and fight for the vision and has been in that spot before to fight. And I just, I mean, I was doing like 15, 20 pages a day cuz I was playing all the parts until I got them to get other people on the show. So it was one of those things where I was just like, I was exhausted. I didn't even get to see edits. I didn't, I didn't like watch myself. Cause I was also too fat at the time. Yeah. I was like, I'm so fat in these things. I, it looks like South Park episodes. Michael Jamin (00:08:08):But how did that come part about, did you have a development deal at a studio orFrank Caliendo (00:08:11):Something being fat?Michael Jamin (00:08:13):No. You a lotFrank Caliendo (00:08:15):Exercise. It was, I had a d I went in, I, I went in and after I was at Med TV for a while there for five years I had the Fox stuff, the n NFL on Fox things, which was actually bigger for me than anything else. Right. being on the Sunday stuff and Super Bowls. So I went inMichael Jamin (00:08:35):And that's cause you do a killer. Madden give, give us, give us the taste of the Madden so people knowFrank Caliendo (00:08:39):What you're trying. I'm mad here for the quick pop popcorn pop. And I turned him into a character too. Like, like I was ta talking. This is, I know I go off on tangents. Just stop me. Go back. But one of the things with the Madden, you know, the, the realistic John Madden voice was this kind of voice where you, you say the things and you do the things. But I found this thing in him that was the excited little kid. Right? The . Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then when he would get that, that going, it was like, I was on Letterman and he had me come on as, get me come on as John Madden didn't say it was a some, I was the lead guest over Ben Stiller, I think it was. Wow. Fake John Madden Wow. Was the lead guest. And I came in and I wasn't really the lead guest, but it was, you know, I tell people, but it was a, it was so I pulled a chicken wing out of my pocket.(00:09:29):I had them get me a chicken wig with sauce on it and everything. I gave you hungry. He was like that right now. , how funny, can you believe this? But it was one of those things where it just, stuff would happen and the, you create the character with it. And it becomes, the funny thing is to me, that that stuff doesn't work the same on social media like TikTok or Instagram, but it might work on some YouTube stuff. Cause there's more longer form. It's, it's more of a longer form, you know, the, the platform is Right. I just didn't like that I said more and longer right. Together. I'm, I'm weird with grammar. I'm very, some things I just, like, if you noticed, I texted you, I didn't like that I put different tenses tenses in my texts and you like, you just stopped talking to at that point.(00:10:14): But when you, I dunno what they really like and on TikTok and these you know, shortform ones platforms is exact replication. They want the, what I would call more of an impersonation, right? Like they want the the, they want you to sound exactly like the person. There's no element of caricature it really, or going what I would call Dana Carvey on it, cartooning it Right. And making it bigger. They're like, ah, that's not like it. Well that's the point. That's the comedic element, right? Right. That makes a good exaggeration after. Yeah, exaggeration after the initial what's the, what the word I'm looking for, the when you, when you recognition, when you get the recognition, laugh on the sound, and then you have to do something with it and make it bigger, right? You have to have more fun with it.Michael Jamin (00:11:09):But you did a post, I thought it was fascinating. I think it was on TikTok, excuse me. I think it might have been like how you do Robert Downey Jr. Or something. And you, you walk through the stages of how you approach the voice in, in pieces and then how you getFrank Caliendo (00:11:26):There. So let's, let's start with this. And this is something that you'll identify with completely as a writer and a creator. You have to find the cadence and the voice of the person not speaking in terms of tone, but the cadence, right? Yeah. How many Christopher Walkins have you heard, right? You've heard low, you've heard, hi, you've heard in the middle, in, in, in the old days, it was William. You knew who it was just by the pauses, right? So you could tell from those voices how you would write for that character. You put the point of view into those, into the song, right? What those of the, you know, into you put the lyrics into the melody. So with Robert, Danny Jr, I found that this is with other characters too. That counting can help you do it. It's better for the audience. It's not a full way to teach somebody how to do it, but it's entertaining while you do it. So Robert Downey Jr. Is after you find the pitch, or you don't even have to have the pitch first, but I'll go to the pitch cuz it's what I do. But it's one, two, pause, burp 5, 6, 7. So you find that it's 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7. And then you can just figure it out, you know? So that's, that's how you find those with Liam Neon. It's 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. You know? So it's the beginning. That'sMichael Jamin (00:12:52):Interesting.Frank Caliendo (00:12:53):Yeah. You can do that with Jeff. Goldblum is one, two 1, 1 1. Juan, what comes after one? Think out loud. That's him one. What's, what's coming into my head? What do I hear? The voices coming at me. One, two. Yes. Here comes one, two, a little jazz. 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 4, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6.Michael Jamin (00:13:17):But you talk about this, you're talking about how you approach it. It's not like you think anyone, you, it's not like you're trying to teach anybody. It's not like anyone, you think anyone can do this, do you? Because I don't think IFrank Caliendo (00:13:26):Do. I think people can find, people can find, I do think people can find it. I think people can find people can't get the, they might not be able to get the pitch, the, the, the note, but they can find the cadence. Everybody, people do itMichael Jamin (00:13:40):Forever. But you, you know, your, your throat, your mouth has a certain in your nose, like you talk. I think you're stuck kind of with the, like, I can't change my, you're stuck with the voice. I don't know how you were able to literally changeFrank Caliendo (00:13:51):The, well, you don't need to do all that stuff. You don't, you don't have to do all the, that. This is another part. The face is another part of an impression. That'sMichael Jamin (00:13:58):The sound of the com. The sound comes from inside your skull.Frank Caliendo (00:14:01):Ok. So yeah. So there, there, there are different pieces to this as well. You can close off your throat. You, you think of it, you know the Bobby character, the Howie Mandel, little bitMichael Jamin (00:14:12):Bobby.Frank Caliendo (00:14:14):So that's closing off your throat. And a lot of people can do that. But the difference is finding different levels of being able to work. It's just, it's a, it's like a muscle, right? Right. So I'll do, I've done this, you might have seen this before, but this is John C. Riley is in here. So John C. Riley has just a little bit of bubble in his throat. Now if you work backwards, a tiny hole, ker frog, that's a little bit more up in here, re tiny Hall Kermit, you're reporting from the planet COOs. Then bring it down a little bit, Nelson your throat a little bit more. You add some air and it becomes Mark. I, I see this as an absolute win, guys. ThisMichael Jamin (00:14:51):That's exactly it. ThisFrank Caliendo (00:14:52):Is, this is crazy. And then, so for Ruff, he is got that thing where I think he had like a, a tumor or something, some, some medical thing when he was younger. And part of his f it was the same with like Stallone, Stallone had Bell's palsy, right? So he is got that, you know, that thing that, right? So if you find, I call it the pizza slice, you've probably seen the thing I did this. It's a triangle. It's a line across the eyebrows, a.in the, in the chin. And it's the triangle that goes down. There are two things. Now, this is stuff I'm actually gonna dos and Instagram on as well, but it's I just am too lazy. And it's, the mouth tells you how the person talks.Michael Jamin (00:15:33):UhhuhFrank Caliendo (00:15:34):. So if you watch my mouth, that's why everybody does a Donald Trump, right? When they do a Donald Trump, you have to do the lips. The lips are very, very, that's very. But now this part of my face from those down is doing Donald Trump. Now when the eyes start going, it sh now that's the point of view that starts. Same with the bush. Bush is, you know, I could do this thing with this half smile. It's like somebody told me a dirty joke before I came up here, but that's just, that's from nose down. But now I get a little discombobulate and you know, I'm staring into the, the abbu, you know, that's what it was also a great movie. So it's, and then the point of view comes from the way you think. Right? But you, when you write a character, when you write a character, you become that character when you write, I don't know if I'm stirring batter or what. Yeah. But if you're doing a cooking show and you're stirring the batter, but your character, you haveMichael Jamin (00:16:32):To, yeah, we would, for example, on King Hill, we would imitate Bobby Hill or Hank or whatever. But imitating is not sounding, you know, it's not sounding like,Frank Caliendo (00:16:40):Yeah. It's just, that's just taking it another level. You, you, you just take it. You get, because you had the cadence of the character. You might not have had the note, but you had the notes written. You didn't have them on the stop, but you knew if it was an eighth note, a quarter note, whatever, a, a rest. And I only know a little bit about music and that's all of it that I just told you.Michael Jamin (00:17:00):But did you, as a kid, did you, like, did you, were you good at this as a kid? Did you wanna aspire? Did you aspire to this?Frank Caliendo (00:17:06):I think I was pretty good at it. I, I have a natural knack and my kids have the knack too. So you have to have a, a knack at the beginning to figure this stuff out from the beginning Right. To, you know, it's predator of the infrared going. I see everything. My son had Bell's Palsy when he was very little. And I, I could see that when he would smile. This is a, the blessing and a curse thing. And when he would smile, he wouldn't smile all at the same time. And then I started to look closely and part of his face moved a lot slower and didn't always move. And I said to, to my wife, I go, something happened. I don't know what it is, but I think he had Bell's Palsy. Well, we had him tested to make sure there was no brain stuff going on or whatever.(00:17:47):But the doctors, what the diagnosis eventually was Bell. He had Bell's Palsy when he was a baby. Right. And it, you know, pa what happens is Bell's Palsy is, I think the fifth I, I don't remember what it was, the fifth or seventh cranial nerve. Something gets damaged either by a virus or trauma, blood trauma. And it keeps you from everything moving at the same time. But that's, but I could see it. Most people don't see it. I could see it because that's the way my brain breaks things down. Yeah. I mean, you as a writer, as a performer, whatever, however you consider, whatever you consider yourself, you do similar things. You see the world from that point of view. And that's how you write. You go, you observe, you take in, and then you replicate or create from that. Exaggeration or finding the, I I've set off Siri like nine times on my watch during this. I've never, that's never happened before.Michael Jamin (00:18:50):I Yeah, I, I say mean things to her. I and I and my wife says it's not good because Apple's picking up on this , like I say awful things to Siri. So, you know, like, Siri, you asshole. What time is it? She don't say that.Frank Caliendo (00:19:08):I'm sure it could be much worse.Michael Jamin (00:19:10):Yeah, it is much worse. I'm cleaning it upFrank Caliendo (00:19:11):For the podcast. Yeah. You were just trying not to get canceled.Michael Jamin (00:19:14):Yeah. Yeah. .Frank Caliendo (00:19:15):Yeah. So there, so there are lots of, yeah, I, I, I see. I look at these thi these things in, in lots of different ways. For me, you know, one of the things that, one of the things when I first got on social media in the last couple years, a few years ago mm-hmm. . Cause I wasn't doing any, cuz I was on Twitter 10 years ago. AndMichael Jamin (00:19:35):Why did I started finding, started my goal on social media. Why did you start?Frank Caliendo (00:19:38):Well, you have to. I mean, if you, if you, the first time it, it was because it was new and people were telling me I didn't like it. I just, I don't like it. I, I, I, I can't, I can't adapt it because people are angry for the most part. And there's a lot ofMichael Jamin (00:19:54):Yes. Tell me about it.Frank Caliendo (00:19:56):Is it, yeah. Right, right. And there's a lot of what confirmation bias. So there's confirmation bias mm-hmm. and the exact opposite. Right? So people either wanna hear exactly what they're thinking and they don't wanna have a conversation about something different. Mm-Hmm. . Or they just wanna fight you for no reason. They wanna troll you. They just wanna, they wanna make you mad. And especially somebody like you or somebody like me that's been in the entertainment business, we targets. Because if we say something back that's mean. Oh, the guy from Glen Martin dvsMichael Jamin (00:20:27):. Well, they don't, they don't. No one's ever heard of that. I know. But, but you're right. I don't, I don't respond anymore because there's just no winning it. There'sFrank Caliendo (00:20:35):No winning. It can't win. Cause because you are, it would be like, this is an exaggeration, but it'd be like a leader being a leader of a country. And this is, but this is what Trump does or did though, right? Uhhuh, . . And you would come back at people and you'd go think, ah, you gotta stay above that. At a certain point it's fu it, it quote unquote. It could be funny in and this isn't a political rant, this is just what I see as an observation. Mm-Hmm. it can be funny in of somebody running for president, but as soon as they're president you kind of feel like you're Yeah. I think, I think it's time to be a little different. You can, that's my opinion. ButMichael Jamin (00:21:08):No, you're absolutely right. I told, but, but, and that's what's so interesting about it, is because social media, at least when I started doing it, like at first, it's a little empowering. You have an audience and you can, you have an, you have a platform. But then once you start getting trolled and, and I, as a comedy writer, I feel like I can tear you apart. I can tear you apart. Whoever's trolling, I don't, I'm better at this than you. But the minute I do it, I, I can't do it because then I'm, I'm then I'm the asshole. And then it, what was once empowering now becomes emasculating at the same time. It's very odd to be able to have a platform, but not causeFrank Caliendo (00:21:40):And and you can, and people can say things to you that you could never say back because they will say things that would get you as a business person canceled. Yep. It doesn't have to be racial. Or it just, they can say things that are just mean that if you say it and somebody pulls it up, they're like, look what Michael Jamin did. Yeah. This is unbelievable. Yeah. I We can't hire this guy. Yeah. He's, he's a terrible person. And they'll defend the person who's ripping you to shreds and saying way worse things. Yes. So you're stuck in, you're, you're stuck in a spot. So it, so I, I started, this is why I got away from social media 10 years ago, whatever. So I was on Twitter, I was building it really quickly with sports stuff. Mostly not video, just just kind of like sassy phrases and, you know, mean things. I, and I realized I was starting to be this person on Twitter in real life in real wayMichael Jamin (00:22:37):InFrank Caliendo (00:22:37):What I'd see somebody just, I'd see somebody and wanna say something terrible to them. Mm-Hmm. . And the only reason I would say that in Twitter, cuz my comedy's silly, not really mean uhhuh, , it's it more cherubic cuz of the cheeks. But , it was one of those things where you said mean things on Twitter, you got likes and retweets cuz people love Right. You know, knocking down people in power. Yeah. Yeah. And I would say something about a quarterback that just threw an interception. Something I could never do. I would never have, you know, that that's the level of skill to, to make it to their level. And I'm ripping them to shreds. I'm going, I, I, and I've changed this way too. I mean, I, I used to think, you know, I used to watch the Oscars and kind of rip the Oscars to shreds because it is so self-aggrandizing. It, so mm-hmm. , everybody's self-congratulatory and stuff. Like, and I would say things, I'm like, I shouldn't be saying this, that, not just because it's, you know, it's kind of gross. But it's, it's also just, I don't know, these people work very hard to get where they, you know, they're just going, some of 'em don't, you know, they're happy to be getting an award, but they have to be show up. It's part of the business. Right.(00:23:46):I get it. I, I what a jerk I am for. You know, that's why even people, people wanna do a podcast and like, let's do a podcast where we just rip movies. I'm like, I don't wanna, that's somebody's acting, somebody's put a lot of time, like my TV show. There were a lot of great people putting that stuff together. But by the time it all got put together, a network has to say other people standards and practices, all these different levels, it's not really what you want it to be. And it's not any one person's fault. It's just not what you want it to be. And that person is, but, you know, that's why it's so amazing when somebody does do something really great, you're going, wow, you watch a, a Tarantino film or something like that. He's a guy who just fights for all his own stuff.(00:24:32):He's gonna do it his way. Right. But you watch a, you watch a film with somebody who does Jordan Peele now right. Who actually got to work with a man TV years ago. People get to a point where they have their point of view and they can make closer to the movie that they want to make. And then you go, okay, when this turns out, this is, this is fantastic. This is how you do it. Because when you don't have that much, say you don't have that much power and you don't have that much fight in you, it's, it's really hard to get close to what you want. And there were so many things in my show mm-hmm. that were close to what I wanted. But that little bit of change just goes. And there were three little changes. You go, oh, the timing's not what I would've done there. They used a cut I never would've used. Right. And now they put it in a different part of the show. Wow. Oh man. So then I know that happens everybody,Michael Jamin (00:25:27):But I have to ask, so then why do you do, why are you on social media? Because you, you have quite a big presence on it. So what's,Frank Caliendo (00:25:33):You go in, you go into an somebody's office, an executive's office. The first thing they do is look how many this, what are you doing here? What do you do? They reallyMichael Jamin (00:25:43):Say, say that toFrank Caliendo (00:25:44):You. Oh yeah, I've had plenty. The people look at me. It'sMichael Jamin (00:25:47):Because what they don't, I feel like they don't understand is the change in the algorithm, which is maybe only a few months old, but they don't un do they understand when you talk to them that having a million followers on Instagram or TikTok, you can't reach them all on any given day. You reach maybe a 10th of them, you know.Frank Caliendo (00:26:03):Well, you don't even reach that. I mean, people don't, so again, people the way it's been explained to me is that TikTok doesn't even really go out to yourMichael Jamin (00:26:15):Followers anymore. No, it doesn't. No, it doesn't.Frank Caliendo (00:26:17):It go, it goes out to a random sample audience, which has mm-hmm. some of your followers in it. And then once it hits that first audience, if enough people watch it long enough or watch it to the end, it gets, then it goes to the next sampleMichael Jamin (00:26:30):Audience. Yes. Right.Frank Caliendo (00:26:31):So if you go to a bad, I I,Michael Jamin (00:26:34):But that's also Instagram. Now that's kind of this, they're they're taking the same model. TheFrank Caliendo (00:26:38):The real stuff. Yeah. Well, because, and the reason that works for them is because they, they can build stars faster that way they can build. So it used to be on Instagram, it would take you years if you weren't famous mm-hmm. to get to a point where you had 10,000, 20,000, 30,000 followers. Well now people can just vertically swipe through reels and all of a sudden the, those people who do that are tend to follow a lot more people. Right. So your videos can go viral with no followers. Right. And then suddenly you'll have followers. It didn't used to work like that it used to.Michael Jamin (00:27:15):Exactly. So that's why I'm asking lots of followers. Do they know, do you think the executives know that? Cause they look at your numbers and like go, oh, Frank's got a big following. But do they know that you canFrank Caliendo (00:27:23):I don't. I think they're a little, I think yes and no. But again, it works to, in their favor that if you have videos that have a lot of numbers mm-hmm. do, because then you're hitting an audience. They know you're hitting a pretty big audience that spreads it to other people. Mm-Hmm. . Now I'm 49, I'm about to be 49. Okay? Mm-hmm. , I, my age group that I played to most, or played to the most was probably 35 to 50 in there. You know, somewhere in there somewhere that I felt like I was similar age and had similar likes and life experiences.Michael Jamin (00:28:00):Right.Frank Caliendo (00:28:00):And those people, that group of people doesn't tend to hit the light button or the retweet button as much. I know I don't. Right. Right. Kids send it, they direct message stuff to their friends. They send things to their f they then they tag other people. They tag lots of people. Yeah. And that's why network executives, producers advertisers like young audiences, not just to sell the products to, but they're the ones that spread the word. Right. And they know that. They know it. It kind of works. You know, I always, I never really thought about that or I never really believed them with that. You know, I've changed brands on a lot of stuff. I've changed toothpaste, I've changed all kinds of things. Right. I don't think I'm normal. I, I, I, I guess I'm not, but young people will try different things and they will do lots of different things at a much higher rate. AndMichael Jamin (00:28:54):So interesting. Do you feel then, as a performer that, okay, so you kind of have to do this. You're a little bit, you know, could you do it what, every day? Right? How many times do you post a day?Frank Caliendo (00:29:05):I don't, I don't even post that much. I, I'll post like a, a week. Once a week or once. Oh, half the time. It's half the time. It's old stuff that I've already Interesting. Like the thing, I have something with 8 million views right now from like a couple weeks ago. Wow. That I've posted two times before. Yeah. And it's gotten a million views and 2 million views and maybe 30,000 views. Oh. Which hits exactly what you're talking about. Yeah. If it doesn't hit the, I have, I have two pieces of advice. A couple pieces of advice for your content, please. I, I would not end my pieces telling people to go see, go. Don't, I wouldn't waste the time in the, in the, in the post telling people for more, if you like stuff like this. Go see, go did Michael Jam writer what, you know, your website, stuff like that. Right. I would just put it in writing near the end. Yeah. On the screen. Because then it's there a little bit subliminally. And they don't have to wait for the, because if they've heard you, if they like your posts and they watch you all the time, they know that's the end of your post. They'll cut out early.Michael Jamin (00:30:10):Interesting. So you're saying put But if I put it up on there, cause I, I do this to get people on my newsletter Right. To, you know, cuz that you get their, but you're saying if I, if I just say it'sFrank Caliendo (00:30:20):Up to say at the end, you spend two to three seconds going. Right. If you like what I said right. Go to Michael Jamin, Robert Writer what is it? Michael jaminMichael Jamin (00:30:28):Michaeljamin.Com/Watchlist is my newsletterFrank Caliendo (00:30:30):Slash watch. Okay. So if you, if you like what you've heard, go to Michael Jamin slash wa slash slash watchlist stuff like this and other things that I gotta Now now they've got, now you've, now you've given them a little piece, which is what's everybody telling you to do? They all tell you well get the call for action. Yeah. But if they've seen your post and they like your posts, they don't need that anymore. Right.Michael Jamin (00:30:53):What if they're brand new? What if they'reFrank Caliendo (00:30:54):Brand new? If they're brand new, you put it, you just put it up on the screen. You put it up on IMichael Jamin (00:30:58):The screen. What do I put on the screen?Frank Caliendo (00:30:59):On the screen? You just write it on the screen. Yeah. Say like more stuff like this.Michael Jamin (00:31:03):Oh, okay. For the whole thing. For more. Okay.Frank Caliendo (00:31:05):Or, or in the last, the last third of what you say. Okay. Just have it up there. And in the, because you do that, you can try, you can, you can experiment and do it both. Do it, do say it sometimes put it up on the screen. Do both mm-hmm. sometimes just put, put it at the end and, and test it. Yeah. Because I could be, I can be wrong. I can be wrong here. But I'm telling you, I watched to the end of yours because I know because I want yours to do well, Uhhuh, , I'll do it, but I'm tempted as soon as you go into that mm-hmm. , I tempted to flip up andMichael Jamin (00:31:39):All right. What,Frank Caliendo (00:31:40):What I found with my stuff, if I introduce things, sometimes people don't even wanna see me introduce it. I just put the title of what I'm doing on the screen.Michael Jamin (00:31:49):Uhhuh ,Frank Caliendo (00:31:50):I don't tell you, you know, I don't tell you what I'm doing. I put the title on the screen to tell you what I'm doing and I get right into it. Right. Unless it's a reply to somebody's if somebody's, then I read their reply a little bit. Right. So they have the visual and you're reading the reply and you're saying something at the same time. So they're kind going back and forth. And then you do, you cut and do what they're saying. What is, what is your other, very quickly,Michael Jamin (00:32:16):What is your other tip for me? Is there anything else? I'll listen in. I don't know if my reader Yeah. What cutsFrank Caliendo (00:32:26):I would cut, I would cut a lot. You don't cut much. Oh, oh,Michael Jamin (00:32:30):Oh.Frank Caliendo (00:32:31):Visually you do, you do things in one.Michael Jamin (00:32:33):Yeah. No. You know why? Because I just don't wanna produce anything. I don't wanna spend time. Right.Frank Caliendo (00:32:36):I get it. I get it. I get, I get it. And, and, but like a friend, somebody I know used to work at YouTube and they're like, just cut, just cut, cut, cut, cut, cut. And you don't even have to really produce it. All you have to do is just splice, splice, splice slightly. Make things bigger and smaller. You don't even really cut any air out. But I, if, if you look at, if you look, you just put it in iMovie or they actually have it in there. Now. If you don't even, you don't evenMichael Jamin (00:33:01):Too much word.Frank Caliendo (00:33:02):I get it. If you watch most of my stuff that's new. There is no real effort into writing it. , Uhhuh. It's just saying words over and over.Michael Jamin (00:33:13):. Right. It's,Frank Caliendo (00:33:15):I won't put the time. Now what I'm starting to do is go back, like you said, let's talk about the Seinfeld thing. When I put the Seinfeld thingMichael Jamin (00:33:21):Out, and that was from Frankie. OhFrank Caliendo (00:33:23):Right. That was from, and it was critically panned. Like it's terrible. Like critics told me it was awful.Michael Jamin (00:33:28):. Ok. I liked it.Frank Caliendo (00:33:30):Yeah. And it's even cut even shorter. It's, it's even, I think the full things like pretty good. There was one of the things I was the most proud of, Uhhuh or the proudest of. And but it's one of those things where , it's so funny cuz it really does look like a South Park version cuz I'm so fat. At the time we made it that it's that, that it just looks like, I call it sign fat. Right. But it was weird cuz if I had guest stars on the show, it would, it would even make it tougher for disbelief, you know, suspending belief or di is it suspending belief or suspending disbelief.Michael Jamin (00:34:03):Suspending disbelief.Frank Caliendo (00:34:05):So, okay, so, so you,Michael Jamin (00:34:07):Yeah. So you're not disbelieving it,Frank Caliendo (00:34:09):Right? So you suspend your disbelief when you see somebody, all the characters look kind of the same. It fits, but all of a sudden you have somebody that looks more like the person because they're skinnier or something like that. A sudden it looks up like, but that Seinfeld thing, it was actually from my, my act was my, the way I did it in my act was I tried to, I always trying to think for the impressions. And so my, my thinking of the Seinfeld bit and my act was Seinfeld is about nothing. It's about reality. It's about everything that happens a reality. Well, what takes you outta reality? So it was drugs. Mm-Hmm. . So I thought put Seinfeld on drugs. And the, the, the bit was why do my fingers look like little people? Who are these people? They doing, they're talking to each other.(00:34:54):They're probably talking about me when I say Jerry, oh, somebody. Hey Jerry, you look like you've been seeing little people on your fingers. That's great. You just let that cat. And then at the end it was Newman and Newman's like, hello Jerry, hello Newman. And she would've lost a sort of Jerry Garcia grateful dead commitment of stamps. She would see them baby . So he'd licked the stamps. You know, that was the bit. So there was reality and it turned back into AED episode. But the whole bit was instead of reality, how do I get into a fantasy world? And that was the easiest way to to, to(00:35:28):Do it. Right.Michael Jamin (00:35:31):Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.(00:35:54):It's fucking, your voices are amazing. I mean, that sounds amazing. But tell me, I have another question up for you. I'm just, I'm curious, I know you're, I actually wanna mention this, so I know you're, you, you got two shows coming up in, in Phoenix, right? Yeah. Where you do, where you go and it stand up, you're doing voices as well, or like, right? OrFrank Caliendo (00:36:11):Yeah. I, I just, what I do is, I'm, I, so what I, what I like to do is, I always hated the vaudevillian impressionist Uhhuh . What if,Michael Jamin (00:36:21):Oh yeah.Frank Caliendo (00:36:23):You know, what if Carrie Grant was your waiter, well, why, why would he be, first of all, that's bad writing, right? ,Michael Jamin (00:36:32):Why would he be your waiter? WhyFrank Caliendo (00:36:33):Would he be a waiter? Remember, years ago, I think it was on the white was it the white album? The that Dennis Miller did? Uhhuh . He's like . He was like and these impressionist, I think Jack Nicholson as a fry cook at McDonald's. I mean, how about you as a fry cook at McDonald's? Chachi, get some writing. You know? So it was it was, I was always like, I wanna write for these characters. So what do would I do? I would make observations. So the way, and that would give me my point of view. So Pacino, he's an actor, right? So I was like, what do act what do they teach you in acting? Be curious. Be amazed by everything. So the simplest thing, Pacino can be amazed. Like somebody's turning on a light. He's like, wait a second, you mean to tell me you flip a switch over there? A light comes on over here. Wow. . So he's amazed by everything. That's the point, right? And that's what my Pacino character always was. And he, and chewing gum. So that'sMichael Jamin (00:37:34):Dead onFrank Caliendo (00:37:34):Man. It's make those, make those observations and then apply them in situations later. So it's observational comedy, but I was just observing how people were. Robert Downey Jr. Is a human. Twitter feed, 280 characters are less and everything's about himself. So he'd give, be giving out an Academy Award, which is supposed to be about the nominees, but the, but he'd be up there like, these people deserve your applause almost as much as I do. Hashtag awesome. So it's, that's the point of view, right? Set it up. That's funny. Bring it back. So once you have that, now you can, now the audience is in on what your point of view is. Now you can put them in situations, which is really what you do with characters in writing. You know, any kind of sitcom or any kind of a, any, you know, any kind of drama, anything.(00:38:25):It just takes longer to get them to who the character is an impression most of the time, and this is why impressions are cut away from acting so much where people think there's no acting in impressions because it's just, you know, somebody, there was Robert De and they work on, are you talking to me? Well, where's the, where's the writing for that? It's the vallian part, right? Come up with something that tells you who the character is. Right. And now write for it. And now it's an interesting character. And that's what you know any type of original character, it just takes longer to get there. And that's why a pilot, right? A television pilot, and you can tell me if I'm wrong, you do this more than me. Let's see. There's a lot more exposition and telling, kind of telling people, okay, hey, I'm just your local waitress. You know? Yeah. Yeah. And they tell you a little bit because they have to do it to get it done. To get it sold. Yeah. And then once it's, once you kind of have it, now you can develop the characters and you have, you have arcs that can build the character to something longer. Yeah. And that's why a lot of pilots get rewritten and redone because the pilot's almost a presentation just to sell it. And it's almost two on the nose. It's a to be what you want.Michael Jamin (00:39:40):But tell me what it's like when you do, like, when you go do a show or two shows, like literally, what is that? Like? You get on a plane, you arrive a couple days before your show, likeFrank Caliendo (00:39:51):The day, usually a day off, the day of just get there. YouMichael Jamin (00:39:55):Do a sound check or no, you just go up on stage likeFrank Caliendo (00:39:58):A theater. I'm probably have the guy opening for me do a sound check. I don't, I don't even, I just go out there and show up and head so I have more energy. I mean, it's just, I like to get out there and just start going. I have a plan. Uhhuh, I have a lot of stuff that I've, I will do that I've done, you know, that I've worked on and done before. But now I try to, I actually like to do clubs a lot more than theaters. Why is that? Because I get to play more and I don't feel, I feel like somebody goes to the theater, you know, they, you feel like they, even though they're not, you feel like it should be a little bit more put together and professional. I feel like at a club, it can,Michael Jamin (00:40:34):A club, you can get heckled. They're not necessarily coming to see you. If you go to a theater, they're coming. They're paying seeFrank Caliendo (00:40:40):Me, 90, 99%. They come to see me at a club. Now if I'm doing a club, yeah. Cuz I'll do like off nights. I'll do like a Tuesday or a Wednesday. The, the general audience isn't going for that. And tickets will sell in advance. I mean, it, it's, that's, that's what I, that's what I likeMichael Jamin (00:40:57):To do. Is, is it theater though? More, more seats usually.Frank Caliendo (00:41:00):Yeah. It's harder to sell. 'em, You, you've gotta figure you're gonna sell. Probably you can probably, cuz people are, they're trained to go to a club and you'll get some people that fill other seats and it'll, it'll snowball. People will talk about it more. Uhhuh . And they have a built in advertising in everybody who goes to that venue. Three or four, you know, five shows a week.Michael Jamin (00:41:20):Interesting.Frank Caliendo (00:41:20):Sees that you're gonna to be there. And they're a comedy audience already. A theater doesn't necessarily have a builtin comedy audience. It might be that's 9%.Michael Jamin (00:41:31):But they're not coming in a comedy club. They might be drunk, they might be hostile, they may heckle. They're not, they're, it'sFrank Caliendo (00:41:38):Not, not, it's not as bad anymore. It's, it, yeah. Most of the clubs are that that's, that's kind of a nineties early two thousands as maybe eighties type of thing. It, that doesn't happen as much anymore because they have so much riding on everything. The clubs used to be, they would you just go there and do a nightclub set and they, they, they'd turn 'em in and out, two drinks, four drinks, and get 'em in and out. Now they're selling them dinner. Uhhuh, they, they, they realize they were given away the five, they were, they're restaurants now that have entertainment. Right. Because they would, they would bring everybody in and nobody, they would give everybody else all the food and beverage around the showtime. And they would, they were realized, well we can do this too. And some of 'em do it. Really,Michael Jamin (00:42:21):Really. But they're not eating during the show. You don't want the meeting show.Frank Caliendo (00:42:24):Yeah, they're,Michael Jamin (00:42:24):Yeah. Yeah. They're, and you're hearing like the silverware and stuff?Frank Caliendo (00:42:27):Yeah, it's, it's, it's usually more of a finger food. But they're, yeah. They're, they're so are some that have full-on, you know, but that, that a lot of that happens during the opener or mc too. By the time I'm up, they're, they're, they're a drinking and they're warmed up and they're, they've gotten their food already.Michael Jamin (00:42:45):And then do you travel with their, with your, with your opener Or is it a local guyFrank Caliendo (00:42:50):Or one? I bring people with me because I know what they're doing. , Uhhuh, . I, I, I'm, I'm a control freak in terms of what's on before me. Right. Because I'm very clean. Even when I try to be dirty, it doesn't work because people wanna see me for being clean. Right. but I've had, I, you know, an opener thinks they're clean and you, you know, I only say that word once, like, wow, that's too many times for some of my audience. Right. Or they, they, they, they, they're not expecting it. Cause they've been there to see me before and I'm the one who's gonna get the emails in the club is. And so I just bring people that I know are gonna play and then I don't have to watch the set over and over and over.Michael Jamin (00:43:31):And then you, and then after you'll you how many shows?Frank Caliendo (00:43:35):Two is the most I'll doing at night, but I'd rather just do one. Right.Michael Jamin (00:43:39):It's exhausting. It's exhausting to hold that kind of attention for pe to people.Frank Caliendo (00:43:43):Yeah, it is. And I just have the point where I, I do it and I have, when I have fun doing it mm-hmm. , that's when I go up and do it. And if I go up and I'm creating some, I'm having fun. If I'm doing an old set just for money and not creating, I'm not having fun. And that happened to me for five to 10 years where I was just doing the same thing all the time. I was making a ton of money Uhhuh. But I think some of my audience got like, well you're doing the same exact set. And it was just going, kind of going through the motions. And I, that wasn't a great time for myself for, you know, me personally. Not like I had anything wrong with family or anything. Like I just wasn't having fun doing the comedy.Michael Jamin (00:44:24):AndFrank Caliendo (00:44:24):Then weMichael Jamin (00:44:25):Will you leave the next day or what, what or I don't wanna cut off. IFrank Caliendo (00:44:28):I used to leave the next morning, first flight to try and get home. Cause I have two little kids right at the time. Two little kids now. They don't like me that much anymore, so. Right. I don't mind going away for a little Do you have kids?Michael Jamin (00:44:39):I do, but they're grown. Yeah. They'reFrank Caliendo (00:44:41):In college. Yeah. So, so you know that, I mean, when they're little, I was missing a lot cuz I was working a lot when they were little. I'd be on the road for a couple weeks at a time. I didn't see my son's first steps. I mean, I just, I didn't like that kinda stuff. SoMichael Jamin (00:44:56):But you knew going into it, when you went to comedy, you knew that that's, that's what the life is gonna be like, right? Or No? Were you surprised? Yeah.Frank Caliendo (00:45:03):But you kind of assume you're gonna go you, you know, you Yes, yes. You do know. But you're also thinking maybe I'll land a TV show, Uhhuh , maybe I'll do, you know, you, you, I don't, and I didn't plan, I didn't plan in the terms of that. But listen, I don't have to work. I honestly don't have to work anymore. I really don't. I I'm, I'm at a point where I don't, so I do things that I really want to. Right. And I, you know, the NFL on Fox stuff, because I was associated with a NFL Hall of Famers and stuff. Like, I do big corporate shows for, you know, oh, do you? For the biggest, for the biggest companies in the world, Uhhuh. And that's, that's what I do. People, you know, I, you, you see one date on the you know, on my public dates, because I live in Phoenix, I don't have to go anywhere.(00:45:52):So I'm just gonna do it. I can do, I can go do it and I can, I can be home. People are asking me to do shows all the time. I'm like and also do a run of one night at different clubs so I can, I don't like looking at the same back of the room for, you know, five or six days. You know, three, four days, five shows. I just, I don't enjoy. So I don't do it. Right. I I I try to do the things now that I like to do. Michael Jamin (00:46:19):I didn't know your feet,Frank Caliendo (00:46:20):So I've saved a lot of money.Michael Jamin (00:46:22):How are you getting acting gigs in if you're all, if you're outFrank Caliendo (00:46:24):There? Well, have you seen me in anything? I don'tMichael Jamin (00:46:27):. That's why.Frank Caliendo (00:46:29):Well, yeah. I don't, I, I don't I go, I go out to la I'll, I'll do some stuff on tape and things like that. Uhhuh , and people ask for me. But I, I, I, you know, yeah, there's, people call me now and I'll get people are like, Hey, will you do this? I'm like, yeah, if I don't have to do it, yeah. Yeah. I just go do it. And I was like, yeah. Like, I just did something recently that was a, a Zoom thing. Like it was actually Zoom in a movie, like a small, you know, like a, a Netflix kinda thing. Like, they're like, you can, you can, you don't even have to come here, you can just do a Zoom thing. And we made, it made the part became bigger. Right. Cause we, you know, I I I call it being serious to the point of being funny where you're just so serious. It's Will, will Ferrell does it really, really well. Right, right. Where you're so serious that it becomes funny. I that's what I, that's the comedy I like. I don't like hail I paid. Right, right.Michael Jamin (00:47:22):Here'sFrank Caliendo (00:47:23):My testicles. That's not the kind of comedy I really like, but it's, a lot of times it's what you have to do to get like the, the funniest thing to me. I like that really uncomfortable stuff in serious. So, better Call Saul, you, are you a fan of that show? Yeah,Michael Jamin (00:47:40):Yeah,Frank Caliendo (00:47:40):Yeah. I like that. Mike Erman Trout.Michael Jamin (00:47:42):Yeah,Frank Caliendo (00:47:43):He's great. Will just odenkirk they will crack me up because it's not, they're not doing anything big and funny per se. They're just in a really awkward situation. But it's, the stakes are so high and it's really important. La Los Salam, monka, you know, it's like, yeah.(00:48:04):All these things are so, like, and stuff Brian Cranston would do on breaking Bad. And you'd watch them and you'd go, ah, like, I'd like to go. God, you're good. I go, that's the stuff that when somebody's just the character and I go, I, I was watching billions. I watched Billions and I started watching Paul Giamati and that's why I started doing that impression, just because I'm like, he's so good. And he's so, I believe these are ways, like, he's just so, like, the intensity and you, you know, you kind of know where he is going before he does, and then he can zig or zag and that's what makes him great. Cause you think you got him pinned down and you're like, oh.Michael Jamin (00:48:51):But, so what's interesting I'm hearing is that, so you have a platform, a stage where you can write, perform pretty much whatever you want to do, but at this point you kind of want someone else just to write for you. And I, I'll, I'll be, I'll just act, you know,Frank Caliendo (00:49:04):That's more of a, and I'll add my pieces if, if that's what you want. Like, I'll add a little flair or that, that's really more what I do wanna do. Yeah. I mean it's, it's, I dunno, I don't want the, this is gonna sound terrible, but it, I, maybe it is, maybe, but after having a couple shows that I developed or, you know, development deals that just fell apart and weren't what I wanted them to be. Mm-Hmm. , I just wanna be in somebody else's who's a real good fighter and go, let's work together. I like being part of a team. Right. And I don't wanna be on a team where somebody wants to do something completely different than me. Right. I don't wanna do that. But if somebody's in the same, in the, in the same wavelength and they're going, and you, you know when that is, can you just start having fun?(00:49:52):You go, that's what I was gonna say. And then you, you do it and they're like, I, I know. Don't even say it. I'm gonna do exactly what you're about to say. Mm-Hmm. , this is it. Don't worry if I don't, we'll shoot it again, but I know what you're gonna say right here. Cuz I saw the light bulb go on with you as soon as it on with me. Here we go. Right. So, yeah. I, that's, I wanna, I wanna be a part of somebody else's thing. That's really, and, and when people think of me, they think I wanna be a one man band. I didn't even wanna be a one man band on my own show. I, I, I, I just, right. I don't know. I, I like being something, I like being part of something bigger. And it doesn't, agents don't always understand that either, because agents a lot of the time, like, you could, you should do your own thing. I'm like, but if I do my own thing, then it's just about me. I'm sick of it being about me. How about it is about,Michael Jamin (00:50:41):I'll tell you this cuz this gets back to Spade, but I'm just, shoot me. He didn't wanna be on screen. If he wasn't, he wanted to hit a home run, walk off, stay stage. I mean, that was it. He didn't need to hang around. He didn't need to count lines, he didn't need to have storylines. He's like, no, just lemme hit a couple home runs and I'll, you know, I'll do what I need to do and then leave.Frank Caliendo (00:50:59):And, you know, and, and you and you're, you're better like that. You're, you're better because you don't look like you're hanging around you. People can't wait to see you come in. Yeah. People know that your part's going to be fun. Now everybody can't be that. You have to have people that are going to drive the show. Right. Right. Arthur on king of Queens. Mm-Hmm. , you know, he is gonna come in from the base and be like, I had no idea this was gonna be this way. By the way, he had one of the greatest Jerry Stiller came up me, I did the Seinfeld bit Montreal at the Montreal Comedy Festival. Uhhuh . Jerry Stiller comes up to me afterward and it's the greatest. Like, this is awesome. He goes, you know, I really enjoyed your show, especially the portion. And I was like, oh, that is, oh, thank you Mr. Stiller. He's like, now could you tell me where the bathroom is? ?Michael Jamin (00:51:49):HeFrank Caliendo (00:51:49):Just wanted to know,Michael Jamin (00:51:50):SaidFrank Caliendo (00:51:51):You just wanted to know when the bathroom was . And that was, I told j I told Ben Stiller that I told him that at, it was, I think it was after his father pass away. I did a show called Birthday Boys. And it was actually, it was, it was really a funny thing. But it was, he was playing a Robin Williams type teacher, dead poet society kind of teacher. Ben Stiller was, who was directed by Bob. Bob. Bob Odenkirk is directing it as a guest director. But it was so awesome. Yeah. see, there's go sir. So I, I, I told, I told that Ben Stiller just the moment he heard it, he's like, , like, like he was almost embarrassed. That's my dad. Like, that's just my dad being my dad. Like, I've been there, man. But I, I remember in that, that was one of my favorite things too. Well the, the thing they wrote is why I wanna tell you this too, was the bit they wrote was he's this, like I said, this dead poet society kind of teacher. But he's going, you know, he's, he's teaching outside the box and he's supposed to be teaching the Diary of Anne Frank, but he's teaching the Diary of Frank Kelly instead .Michael Jamin (00:53:02):Right. It's funny.Frank Caliendo (00:53:03):And, and it's, you know, it's a joke of making fun of me, but I was like, God, just to be in this joke. And Bob Oden is directing and Ben still is doing it. The birthday boys wrote it. It's like, oh. And I made Stiller laugh. Cause when Odenkirk kind of went off the script, he's like, just, he's having Mr. Stiller. No, he's having Ben just tell me. He's like okay. Adam Sandler at a, at a funeral. And I was like, oh grandma, where did you have leave? Where were you? I leaving And then Ben starts cracking up. He's like, I can't go. I can't go out. He stopped. He stopped. And I go, I just, Ben laugh on the set. Oh. I go, this is the greatest day of my life. And Stiller is like, let's get going. You know? He's like, no, he was, he was great. But it was so funny too cause it was a moment for me, like, oh, this is one of the people I look up to is one of the great reactors. Yeah. Like Ben Stiller as funny as he could be presenting somethi

In this episode Nate and Kyle send you into Christmas into the dying embers of the holiday season with some of the weirdest, strangest, and most unusual Christmas themed songs they could find... and that, is saying something. Listen along as the hosts try and justify their choices and help you understand why this playlist was put together. Then, you can sit down and enjoy a lengthy playlist full of new, and not always enjoyable, musical surprises.This week's playlist: Christmas Outta Left FieldA Weird Little Christmas - Jack BlanchardChiron Beta Prime - Jonathan CoultonChristmas With the Devil – Spinal TapI Want an Alien for Christmas – Fountains of WayneChristmas Tree – Lady Gaga feat. Space CowboyHappy Birthday – Mojo Nixon & the ToadliquorsMy First X-mas (as a Woman) – the VandalsZombie Christmas – Emmy the Great & Tim WheelerSanta Doesn't Cop Out on Dope – Sonic YouthDeck the Stills – BNLMerry Something to You – DevoThe Little Drum Machine Boy – BeckThe Little Drum Machine Boy – ParraloxFunkytown Christmas - Steven P. Greenberg“Hidden Track” - Nerf HerderCarol of the Fates - AtinPianoI Saw Mommy Biting Santa Clause: A Zombie Christmas Story: DollyrotsJingle Bells – Austrian Death MachineXmas Curtain – My Morning JacketChristmas at the Zoo – the Flaming LipsChristmas Duel – the Hives w/Cyndi LauperFeliz Navidad – William ShatnerCareless Santa – They Might Be GiantsLittle Drummer Boy - Christopher LeeAll I Want for Xmas is the Criss Angel Platinum Magic Kit with Over 250 Magic Tricks – Watch Out for RocketsChristmas is a Pain in the Arse – the AcceleratorsElf Creep – the Rocket SummerIt's Christmas – Bouquet of VealDo You Hear What I Hear? – Rosie O'Donnell & ElmoThe Lord's Prayer – the Beach BoysHot Chocolate – Tom HanksJingle Bell Rock – Thousand Foot KrutchDon't Shoot Me, Santa – the Killers(I Spent) Christmas with the Devil – MX-80Yuletide Throwdown – Blondie w/Fab 5 FreddyMusicatarationalvolume.com@MARVpodcast on Twittermusicatatrationvolume profile on Spotify for episode playlists based on topics discussed

Time to meet another rising Kiwi music star starting to make waves. Miller Yule started his music journey back in 2016 - and his debut ep Shoot Me in the Heart attracted critical acclaim and chart success. Since then - he's been working on new music, but like many artists the pandemic got in the way. But now he's back with his debut album Let it Burn which is out tomorrow. Miller Yule joined Mike Hosking in studio. LISTEN ABOVESee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You know you've asked the question either out loud or in your head: how do I grow this booty?? Well I'm going to share all of the tips, tricks, and secrets today! As someone who is glute dominant (I'll explain what that is in the episode for those who don't know) it was incredibly frustrating until l figured it out and I don't want you to have to go through the same pain I did!   Time Stamps:   (0:12) How to Grow a Booty (1:00) My Quad Dominance (2:50) Eating to Grow (5:45) Avoiding Excess Cardio (6:20) Shoot Me a Message (7:26) Train for Strength (10:20) David Goggins Quote (11:18) My Favorite Glute Movements (12:07) Abduction Movement (14:08) Thrust or Bridge Exercise (16:12) Squat/Lunge Exercise (18:00) Hinge/Pull Exercise (18:46) Recapping (20:06) Train Your Full Body (22:46) Importance of Compound Exercises (24:48) Examples of Compound Exercises (27:25) Feel Free to Reach Out! ---------------- Follow Me on Instagram! - https://www.instagram.com/laceeiskk/ ---------------- We have helped over 800 women transform their mind and body and become the best version of themselves. Want to be next? Click Here to Apply! - https://form.typeform.com/to/WKxPkc

从小接触各种乐器，初中开始一边在国际学校读书一边学习爵士乐，还没读高中就出个人专辑，所有的学科中最爱的竟是化学。今天来听热爱音乐的少年Tiger在求学路上的故事。跳片头，点这里00:50- 聊天的人 -Tiger顾超（微博@天方乐谈超人，公众号“天方乐谈Intermezzo”）- 音乐 -[05:23-08:07] Heartache[31:59-35:57] Heartbreak Blues（片段）[56:33-59:43] Shoot Me by Text喜欢并希望打赏本节目的听友，请关注官方微信公众号“天方乐谈Intermezzo”并在对应文章下赞赏投喂，加入「天方乐谈」听友群，请添加管理员微信号guchaodemajia。- logo设计 -五颜六色的大亮哥- 收听方式 -推荐您使用「苹果播客」、小宇宙或任意泛用型播客客户端订阅收听《天方乐谈》，也可通过喜马拉雅等app收听。- 互动方式 -节目微信公众号：天方乐谈Intermezzo听友群管理员微信号：guchaodemajia本期节目由魔都电台与顾超联合制作。

Blue on Blue, Green on Green, Fratricide. It's all bad! Today's guest is Michael Lessman. Mike and I met at the Pat Rogers Memorial Revolver Round-Up at Gunsite several weeks ago and I learned about his company DSMSafety. Michael is a retired LEO and after reading about and studying incidents involving plain clothes and off duty officers involved in critical incidents he developed an identification system to help prevent friendly fire incidents. He's now taking that same concept and launching a new product for the armed citizen. The post Episode 66-Don't Shoot Me! first appeared on The Off Duty On Duty Podcast.

If and when you decide to hire for your first position down to you being the true CEO of your company, this is an episode you need to save and keep referencing throughout your entire entrepreneurial journey. I'll take you through the 8 essential hires you need to make between being a solopreneur to a true CEO, the triggers at which you should hire, and everything in between!   Time Stamps:   (0:25) NLCA Mastery Module (1:42) Note Before We Start (3:10) Personal Ceiling (6:15) VA (11:30) Second Hire (18:06) Third Hire (20:20) Hired All the Doing Positions (27:25) Fourth Hire (32:00) Fifth Hire (34:00) Sixth Hire (36:00) Sixth Hire Correction (36:42) Seventh Hire (40:05) Eighth Hire (43:45) Shoot Me a DM with Questions  ----------- Follow Me on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/the_fitceo/  ----------- If you are feeling stuck and you're ready to take the next step, check out Next Level Coaching Academy - https://www.thenextlevelcoachingacademy.com

Scott and John discuss some records/artists they would hand out as an "intro to rock n roll"John:That's Alright Mama- Elvis PresleyRock n Roll Music vol 1 and 2- The BeatlesExile on Mainstreet- the Rolling StonesIII-Led ZeppelinSelf-titled debut- AerosmithSelf titled- Buddy HollySelf titled- Ray CharlesAfter School Session-Chuck BerryHere's Little Richard- Little RichardScott:Robert Johnson - King of the Delta BluesElvis Presley - From Elvis in MemphisThe Beatles - Abbey RoadLed Zeppelin - Houses of the HolyAerosmith - Get Your WingsElton John - Don't Shoot Me, I'm Only the Piano PlayerTom Petty & The Heartbreakers  - Damn the TorpedosBruce Springsteen - NebraskaRadiohead - OK ComputerAC/DC - High VoltageBecome a fan on Facebook at NMD podcast group.nmdpodcast@gmail.com and follow us on Instagram  @nmdpodcast.Tell your friends!!Be sure to Like and Subscribe. Thanks for Listening!!

In this episode of the Church Security Roll Call, we're going to be discussing the Don't Shoot Me banners.

I'm not really sure what's in this episode. I found it in my archived episodes and I wanted to buy us an extra week to create more amazing content. If you get offended by anything in this, my bad. Shoot ME an email - TheRealJoshJX@Gmail.com --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/thecrossoverwjam/message

(Director's Cut)I've been hinting this week at Plausible Deniability--PD--what is it?Plausible Deniability is one of the most commonly used and destructive tools available to everyone. It's the ability to make harm appear incidental or accidental or undetectable.This podcast I cover FIFTEEN different ways you can (if legal or necessary) use PD in your gameplay and lifeplay.Support Sovrumano at:BuyMeACoffee.com/SovrumanoPayPal.me/SovrumanoTeepublic.com/user/SovrumanoBut cash in hand is best!Hire Sovrumano?! Maybe. Shoot Me an email at Sovrumano@protonmail.com if you want Me to speak for your group or a one on one coaching.

An hour(ish) shorter than the lousily new norm is this week’s episode. Lest I be accused of hypocrisy (forget the “lest”, Pfidze actually dared vaunt such impudence - I delight in language, SHOOT ME!), I shall display my dexterity in pith and restrict this blurb to a mere 100 words. Not only will ye be plentifully apprised of one’s biography, the bulletin will be blazoned with one’s trademark lexemic panache. Vernon Lesburrell in fine fettle; conspiracy indulgent once again and chairobics adept. Lanka-Chisp wedding set for July. Easing of lockdown begets rumblings of plans for Kettle family reunion. Alarm! Fin.

Lizz Kalo is a singer/songwriter originally from Johannesburg, South Africa, currently living in Gwangju, Korea. Last year she released her second EP, entitled “Y.O.U.” On this episode, Lizz joins host Gino Brann to talk a bit about the many ways to deal with a breakup, the absolute best place to come up with creative ideas, chatting up tall girls, and lots more. They also perform one of her songs live in the studio.---Songs featured:• "Shoot Me"• "Baleka"• "Reboot"• "Tall Girls (live)"Additional sound design by Shah at undergroundtracks.com---Find and follow Lizz Kalo at:• Y.O.U.: ampl.ink/b1znm• Instagram: @Lizz_Kalo• Twitter: @lizzkalo• Facebook: facebook.com/lizzkalo• Spotify: open.spotify.com/album/6hl84nIGnmsT5RglRBt6xV• YouTube: youtube.com/channel/UCYItugbmji9vh4ERhtajyBQ---• Created and produced by Gino Brann (@ginobrann)• ginobrann.bandcamp.com• Artwork by Jeongmin Lee (@mintheelephant)• Intro music: "Me? Oui!" by Gino Brann• Outro music: "Forever" by Jen Sotham---Liquid Sound, in cooperation with the Liquid Arts Network, is recorded at the Liquid Arts Network Studio, Oryukdo, Busan, South Korea.---• Email: liquidsoundpodcast@gmail.com• Website: liquidartsnetwork.com• Instagram: instagram.com/liquidartsnetwork• Facebook: facebook.com/liquidartsnetwork• Twitter: twitter.com/liquidartspod• Soundcloud: soundcloud.com/liquid-arts

"Don't Shoot Me...I'm Only The Guitarist" THE TANTALIZING TRUE TALES OF GUITARIST JOHNNY MACK" Guitarist JOHNNY MACK BROWN sits down and discusses his life in the field of show business with a series of actual true stories that we chose to call JOHNNY MACK'S TANTALIZING TRUE TALES because they are non-fiction life events that he will never ever forget. They can aptly be renamed "Don't Shoot Me...I'm Only The Guitarist" and many would argue that episode name is a much better fit for some of the experiences he was inadvertently involved in during the 1960's as a young, but red hot and very popular, guitar player. The Beatles had changed the world, live music was red hot and very much in demand, the women were pretty and some of the nightclubs still sold 3.2 beer in an attempt to get a younger audience legally. This is a historical show so sit back and listen as we kick it old school and discuss an era that was loved by so many and world's apart from the crazy life we are all forced to live in today. Welcome to the antics of JOHNNY MACK who is, after all these years, still playing today! To contact JOHNNY MACK: Email RickFlynnPresents@gmail.com and place "Johnny Mack" in the subject line. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/rick-flynn/support

Does a foolproof success formula really exist? Listen to this episode, implement it, and let me know. It's that simple but it won't be easy. Today's episode is a segment from our first Immediate Impact Live Event a few months back and this particular part gave a lot of those who attended a big "a ha" moment. Let us know if you enjoyed this style of episode and we'll be sure to include more like them in the future.   Time Stamps:   (2:30) Please Share and Shoot Me a DM If You Enjoyed This (3:15) Unique Framework (4:18) Formula Introduction (5:49) Lobsters (9:58) Focus (14:10) “I’m Bad At” (18:00) Skills (23:29) Personal Responsibility (28:52) Fucked Up Beliefs (31:06) Sales (33:30) Money (37:31) My Grandpa’s House (40:00) My Intention ------------ IFCA 6.0 Is Opening SOON!    We start taking application calls on January 24th, but you can get in line EARLY!!    All you have to do is click below, and you’ll be added to our IFCA early birds waitlist, which will give you a ton of early bird incentives, and cool extra shit.    Plus, you’ll have first dibs on the highest demand mentorship for online fitness coaches in the GAME.    CLICK HERE TO SIGN UP FOR THE WAITLIST ------------ Make sure to follow the IFCA Instagram Page for daily content to help you:  ✅  Start, and Grow Your Online Fitness Coaching Offer  ✅  Lead Gen Secrets  ✅  Mindset Tools  ✅  Content Tips  ✅  Productivity Tools and Systems  ✅  Sales and Marketing Strategies    ------> Follow @ImpactFitnessCoachingAcademy  ------------- FREE Content Planner for Online Coaches! Hundreds of Prompts, Templates, and Systems to CRUSH THE CONTENT GAME   https://ifca.kartra.com/page/ContentCalendar ------------- DON’T FORGET TO JOIN OUR COMMUNITY FOR ONLINE COACHES LOOKING TO LEARN, SCALE, AND MAKE AN IMPACT IN FITNESS   Join the Free IFCA Community for Coaches who want to change lives ------------- Please make sure to follow Erin at @erindimondfitness, Jordan at @duggaestetics, and the official Flow State of Mind Podcast page @flowstateofmindpodcast.   Subscribe & Review in iTunes   Are you subscribed to our podcast? If you’re not, we encourage you to do that today. We don’t want you to miss out on any episode. Click here to subscribe in iTunes!   If you’re a true badass, we’d be super grateful if you left us a review over on iTunes, too. Those reviews help us climb the podcast ranks and extend our listenership and reach. Just click here to review, select “Ratings and Reviews” and “Write a Review” and let us know what your favorite episode was. 

Imposter Syndrome Is Real And Yanni B. Jay is here to talk about it.  ______________________________________________________________________________ Follow Me on Social Media to Stay in Touch! Facebook - Yanni B. Jay  Twitter - @ThisFatLdySings Instagram - @YanniBJay  Snapchat - @YanniLoves Have Questions? Wanna Be A Guest On The Show? Shoot Me an Email: yannibjay@perrywalkerbrand.co New Podcast Episode Every Thursday!!!!!! Check Out PERRY WALKER BOUTIQUE: https://www.perrywalker.bigcartel.com Subscribe To My Travel Vlog ‘Yan Don’s Big Adventures’ On Youtube! Click Here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmO-8gnF4AMnLHrm4C2ANgg

Escrita por Elton John y Bernie Taupin, que fue lanzado el 27 de octubre de 1972 en el Reino Unido y el 20 de noviembre en Estados Unidos. Incluida en el LP "Don't Shoot Me, I'm Only the Piano Player".Elton ha logrado 26 álbumes de oro, 38 de platino o multiplatino y 1 diamante, ha vendido más de 300 millones de discos en todo el mundo y tiene el récord del single más vendido de todos los tiempos, Candle In The Wind. Desde que lanzó su primera gira en 1970, Elton cuenta con más de 4.000 actuaciones en más de 80 países en su haber.

Brrrrr, it's cold in them thar hills! Get a toasty beverage and sit and listen to this week's Treading the Boards' Regional Theatre News. There's four season announcements, the SDCF presents its annual award tonight in San Fran and I'm going to tell you about a really cool app for actors to use for auditions and casting directors to use to view actors' auditions. Join the mailing list to receive notices about upcoming issues, the weekly newsletter and a link to this podcast simply text TREADINGTHEBOARD to 22828 SEASON ANNOUNCEMENTS Shakespeare & Company (MA) Bluff City Theater (MO) Creede Repertory Theatre (CO) Depot Theatre (NY) ARTICLES & INTERVIEWS BroadwayWorld.com - Loretta Greco receives Zelda Fichandler Award in SF SOMETHING I HAD TO SHARE WITH YOU... Shoot Me! Auditions for Actors app   Order your very own issue of Treading the Boards at ACLTHEATRERESOURCES.COM. THANKS FOR LISTENING & HAVE A CREATIVE DAY

Le coeur noir du marais : le bénévole se suicide dans le bayou après la lecture des news. Au programme : Revue de presse : Der Bénévole Chronique Woorms : Matthieu Chronique Spectral Wound : Pierre Playlist : Acid Bath / Scream of the Butterfly , Cursed Earth / Regression , TrollfesT / Espen bin Askeladden , Ghost / Satan Prayer , River of Nihil / The Silent Life , Earth Witch / Butterfly , Woorms / Mouth is a Wound , Demonaz / Over the Mountains , Attila / Ignite , Spectral Wound / Woods from Which the Spirits Once so Loudly Howled , Kylesa / Tired Climb , Satyricon / Black Crow on aTombstone , S.O.B. / Shoot Me

Seventeen has balanced a dichotomy between EDM and acoustic; aegyo and edgy. So how did Seventeen's "Oh My" fare as a summer bop? Editor's Note: this was recorded back in July. Hit Replays: - 다비치 (Davichi) - 마치 우린 없었던 사이 (Prod. 정키) (Nostalgia (Prod. JungKey))https://youtu.be/A-Pb7XfHD7Y - ELRIS(엘리스) _ Summer Dream https://youtu.be/tpLro7n3PWo - DAY6 "Shoot Me" https://youtu.be/g2X2LdJAIpU Listen to Hit Replays on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/user/kpopcast/playlist/72O7VTSxmAKA3wIORNqBBr?si=2SJRPfYDRhiC_fzDyvHo4w The Kpopcast Crew: twitter.com/TheKpopcast twitter.com/Sparker2 twitter.com/Ariana_Y_Khan twitter.com/michaelajkpop twitter.com/rhodrirhodri twitter.com/Soupermatic twitter.com/DJPeterLo kpopcast.net #kpopchat Follow Mighty Rockstars' awesome kpop rock covers: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYWx6BDM79tOcn3eNmUPtow/ Check out Doo Piano's piano music covers: www.youtube.com/channel/UCNoN7dpdAlglcQWUn2pFjDA Check out Smyang Piano's music covers: www.youtube.com/channel/UCOkV-EsKn5xHgZDLZsPnJwA

Emcee, Andie and David enjoy one of the few looks at Cordelia on BtVS and feel absolutely not sympathy for Marcie Ross and disbelief that she wouldn’t have any band geek friends. Stuff Me, Shoot Me, Mount Me Archived Sites

The 80z Babies return with special guest Shamira (from Very Smart Brothas) with an in depth discussion of her VSB piece on The Miseducation of Lauryn Hill. Is the album overrated?? *gasp* Join your favorite hiphop haters for a discussion that becomes a Salute Me or Shoot Me that becomes a Make it a Classic.

The 80z Babies return with the first installment of "Salute Me or Shoot Me" arguing points about the influence of The RZA, the career trajectory of The Roots, the sound of LA hiphop, and Erick Sermon's legacy as a producer.

This week on StoryWeb: Elton John and Bernie Taupin’s album Captain Fantastic and the Brown Dirt Cowboy. When I was fifteen years old, my favorite album was Elton John’s Captain Fantastic and the Brown Dirt Cowboy. Even then, I knew it was something special, a truly unique album. Recently, I listened to the album again – for the first time in over thirty years. Wow! It still holds together. Elton John himself – among numerous other musicians, producers, and critics – believes Captain Fantastic is his best album. The ninth formal studio release album for Elton John, Captain Fantastic was the first album to debut at number one on the US Billboard 200. Rolling Stone ranks it at number 158 on its list of the “500 Greatest Albums of All Time.” The album was recorded at Caribou Ranch outside of Nederland, Colorado – just a hop and a skip from our home in Boulder. Taken in its totality, the album tells the powerful story of the growing relationship – both musically and personally – between Captain Fantastic (Elton John) and the Brown Dirt Cowboy (Bernie Taupin). The album follows their beginnings as a songwriting duo churning out songs in the late 1960s for a pop hits mill in London. Their managers have no thought in the least that they’re working with a lyricist and composer who have the potential to hit it big themselves. For this reason, Bernie Taupin (who wrote the lyrics to the songs) and Elton John (who wrote the music) say that they were writing with “bitter fingers” (the title of the third song on the album). Also chronicled is Elton John’s narrow escape from what would have been a disastrous marriage to Linda Woodrow, who did not see the value of his music. “Someone Saved My Life Tonight” also tells of Elton John’s failed 1969 suicide attempt in response to the engagement. This song was, of course, the big hit from the album, but I think it’s important to put it next to “We All Fall in Love Sometimes,” which appears near the end of the album. Even as a fifteen-year-old, I thought – and still think – the song tells of Elton John and Bernie Taupin’s deepening personal relationship. Elton John said in later years, “Captain Fantastic was written from start to finish in running order, as a kind of story about coming to terms with failure – or trying desperately not to be one. We lived that story." Accounts of the recording sessions indicate that the album was also recorded from start to finish, including the last two songs – “We All Fall in Love Sometimes” and “Curtains” – which were recorded in one continuous take. Music critics laud the songwriting accomplishments of Elton John and Bernie Taupin, with one calling them “the most successful writing duo since Lennon and McCartney.” Unfortunately, the two men had a falling out starting in 1977 and didn’t resume working together again full-time until 1983’s Too Low for Zero album. Even though the two men patched things up and began writing together again, they seem to have lost their mojo and have never quite gotten it back. Elton John and Bernie Taupin were at their best in the early years – from their first album, Empty Sky (an album that has never gotten nearly as much attention as it deserves), their follow-up classics, Madman Across the Water, Goodbye, Yellow Brick Road, and Don’t Shoot Me, I’m Only the Piano Player, and finally Caribou (also recorded in Colorado) and Captain Fantastic and the Brown Dirt Cowboy. Of course, in the decades since Captain Fantastic and the Brown Dirt Cowboy came out in 1975, Elton John has gone from being a mega-hits pop star (Captain Fantastic) to being a beloved friend of Princess Diana, from marrying his long-time partner, David Furnish, to being knighted by Queen Elizabeth. Though the music he has written and recorded since the 1970s doesn’t come close to his early output, Sir Elton has come a very long way. For more on Elton John and Bernie Taupin, read “From the End of the World to Your Town: The Decline and Fall of Captain Fantastic” or watch the 1991 film documentary Two Rooms: Celebrating the Songs of Elton John and Bernie Taupin. For insights into this particular album, visit Elton John’s official website and read “10 Things You Need to Know about Captain Fantastic and the Brown Dirt Cowboy.” And to learn more about the legendary Elton John’s life and career, pick up a copy of the recently published Captain Fantastic: The Definitive Biography of Elton John in the ‘70s. Rock music – especially rock music of the 1970s – has seen many concept albums, but this one is very much worth returning to. Give it a listen again . . . after all these years. Visit thestoryweb.com/john for links to all these resources and to watch a clip of Elton John singing “Someone Saved My Life Tonight” in a 1976 concert. You can also watch the original television commercial for Captain Fantastic and the Brown Dirt Cowboy and listen to the title song, which opens the album.

This week Hollister & O'Toole discuss Amazon Prime's Mozart in the Jungle, recently nominated for 2 Golden Globes: Best Comedy/Musical and Best Actor, Gael García Bernal (Y Tu Mamá También; The Motorcycle Diaries). The cast alone is music to our ears: Broadway legend Bernadette Peters, Lola Kirke, Saffron Burrows, Malcolm McDowell, Debra Monk... Also, hear what Hollister has to say about Will Smith's new movie Concussion, while O'Toole pays homage to the late, great Elaine Stritch, truly one of the Grande Dames of American Theatre (the self-proclaimed "existential problem in tights") with the doco Elaine Stritch: Shoot Me. Fun fact: Alec Baldwin appears in both movies (Concussion and Shoot Me)!

The legendary Roy Leonard calls in and tells us about “Shoot Me” with Elaine Stritch, “All the Way” with Bryan Cranston as Lyndon Johnson, and more.

In Episode 21 of the 50/90 Podcast T.C. plays songs that Ianuarius likes from the 50 Songs in 90 Days songwriting challenge, 2013 edition.While in the unofficial 50/90 chatroom, T.C. asked Ianuarius to quickly give him "ten or so" songs he liked from the 50/90 site. And within in moments Ianuarius had listed seven and popped up the rest shortly thereafter. These are them. The first ones he gave me. No do overs. No editing. No, Oh, wait I listed two by Psy-T and I'd better replace one with someone else. It was done and done. So here you have it. In this episode you will hear:5090 Podcast Show Them Song by JastStaring Down My Battles by Deaf SteeverPity The Fool by see-man-skiPearl's Lullaby (Part Two) by 1BKingToil Of War by MelodyOars In The Water by Leslie HudsonA Meditation On Medication by Calum CarlyleInside by JoshuwaaaPlease, Don't Shoot Me by LHCiscoA Marriage In Seven Parts by RCMy Bowed Heart by MelodyDark Ritual by Ianuarius5090 Podcast Show Theme Song by JastFor the latest and greatest, interesting and entertaining snippets on fiftyninety, this is where you need to be. Actually, T.C. is probably just playing songs from the 50 Songs in 90 Days songwriting challenge. So if you want more information about the hundreds of participants or the thousands of songs you might want to head on over there.Listen to the mp3

Torngat, You Could Be, Mouton Noir, Burning Star Core, Burning Star Core, Shoot Me out the Sky, The Definitive Host, The Definitive Host, iLife Stinks, Matthew Herbert/Radio Mentale, I could Never Make that Music Again, Cool Noises, Katie McMurran, Deep Wireless 4, Your List of Transcendental , Wobbly, Project Bicycle, Flee, Ferdinand Kriwet, Voice of America, Voice of America, Mudsuckers, Mudsuckers, Endocrine Disrupters, Oleg Kostrow, Oleg Kostrow, Todesvision, Dome , 2, Ritual view, Tobias Lilja, Time is on My Side, Dreams of Movement, The Piss, , Listen Think Remember, Chris Burke, Idioglossia, H. / Television Repairman Lucas, s/t, It Wants to Be Touched, , Twink, Broken Record, alphabent, Cone Five, Ants in The Sugar, Painfully Shy, Daniel A.I.U. Higgs, Atomic Yggdrasil , Hems and Seams