Podcasts about will how

In this episode of the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, hosts Will Larry and Victoria Guido discuss the intricacies of product design with thoughtbot's Senior Designers, Rami Taibah and Ferdia Kenny. They delve into the newly launched Product Design Sprint Kit by thoughtbot, which is designed to streamline and enhance product development. Ferdia and Rami explain how the kit aims to compress the design process into a focused five-day sprint, allowing teams to move from idea to user-tested prototype efficiently. They discuss the genesis of the kit, its components, and the rationale behind making it openly available. Towards the end of the episode, the conversation shifts towards the broader implications of design in product development, the iterative nature of design sprints, and the value of user feedback in guiding product decisions. Rami and Ferdia share real-world examples where product design sprints led to significant pivots or refinements in product strategy, emphasizing the critical role of user testing in uncovering genuine user needs versus presumed functionalities. Follow Rami Taibah on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/ramitaibah/). Follow Ferdia Kenny on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/ferdiakenny/). Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: WILL:  This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry. VICTORIA: And I'm your co-host, Victoria Guido. And with us today are Rami Taibah, Senior Designer at thoughtbot, and Ferdia Kenny, Senior Designer at thoughtbot, here to talk to us about the newly released Product Design Sprint Kit from thoughtbot. Ferdia and Rami, thank you for joining us. Why don't you introduce yourselves a little bit, tell us a little bit about each of your background while we get started? FERDIA: I'm Ferdia. I'm a product designer at thoughtbot. I've been with the company for nearly three years now. I'm based in Dublin in Ireland, but I'm from the West Coast of Ireland. Happy to be on the podcast. It's my first time coming on, so that'll be a new experience. RAMI: Yeah, so I'm Rami Taibah, and I am also a senior designer at thoughtbot for nearly two years. I'm also from the West Coast, like Ferdia, but I didn't move. I'm still where I'm from [laughs]. VICTORIA: Yeah, so just to get us warmed up here, why don't you tell us something interesting going on in your lives outside of work you want to share with the group? FERDIA: For me, I'm trying to do a bit of traveling at the moment. So, one of the benefits, obviously, of working with thoughtbot is that we are a fully remote company. As long as we're kind of staying roughly within our time zones, we can kind of travel around a little bit. So, I'm actually in France at the moment and going to Spain in March. So yeah, I'll be working from a couple of different spots, which is really cool and a lot of fun. RAMI: Yeah, it's pretty cool. I always see Ferdia, like, having these meetings in, like, these different locations. Just a few months ago, you were in Italy, right? FERDIA: Yeah. Yeah [laughs], that's right, yeah. RAMI: Yeah. So, for me, well, first of all, I got a new baby, new baby girl, exactly on New Year's Day, so that's interesting, going back home every day and seeing how they evolve very quickly at this age. Another thing is I've been doing a lot of Olympic weightlifting. It's probably one of the consistent things in my life since COVID. I was a CrossFitter. I got out of that, thankfully. But coming back into, like, after quarantine, weightlifting seemed like a good choice because it doesn't have the social aspect of CrossFit, and I can just do it on my own. WILL: How is your sleep? RAMI: I'm a heavy sleeper, and I feel guilty about it, so no problems here [laughs]. WILL: Yeah, that was one thing I'm still trying to recover from–sleep. I love my sleep. And so, I know some people can do with little sleep, but I like sleep. And so, I'm just now recovering, and we're almost two years since my baby boy, so [chuckles]... RAMI: Yeah, I'm a heavy sleeper. And I tell my wife, like, we have this understanding, like, if you ever need anything from me besides...because she has to be up for, like, breastfeeding, just kick me. I'll wake up. I'll do whatever you need [laughs]. WILL: That's awesome. VICTORIA: So, my understanding is that if you want to get better at any sport, if you get better at deadlifting, that will help you progress in your sport pretty much. That's my [laughs] understanding. I don't know if you all feel that way as well. RAMI: Oh, I never heard that. But I do know that these three, like, three or four basic lifts just basically boosts you in everything else, like, deadlifts, back squats. And what was the third one? Bench press, I guess. FERDIA: And pull-ups as well, I think, is a compound exercise. I just hate like this. I look for an excuse to skip them, so...[chuckles] VICTORIA: Yeah, the four essential exercises, but it doesn't mean that they're fun, right? FERDIA: [chuckles] VICTORIA: Yeah. And then, Will, I heard you were also training for a new activity, the 5k. WILL: Yeah, I'm going to run a 5k with my best friend. He's coming into town. So, I'm excited about it. I've always tried to do running, but my form was horrible, and I'll get injured, tried to do too much. And I think I finally figured it out, taking it slow, stretching, making sure my form is correct. So, it's been good. I've enjoyed it. And it's interesting looking at what I'm doing now versus when I first started. And I was like, whoa, like, when I first started, I couldn't even run a mile, and I'd be out of breath and dying and just like, ah, and then now it's like, oh, okay, now I'm recovered, and I can walk it off. So, one thing it's taught me is just consistent, being consistent because I feel like with working out and running, you have this, like, two-week period that it's just hard. Everything hurts. Your body is aching. But then after that, your body is like, okay, you're serious. Okay, then, like, I can adjust and do that. And then once you get over that two weeks, it's like, oh, okay, like, still, like, sometimes I still push it and get sore, but for the most part, my body is like, okay, I get it. Let's do this. And then now, compared to before, now I'm just like, I can't stop because I don't want to go back through that two weeks of pain that I started at, at the very beginning. So, yeah, it's been a very good journey. I don't know how far I'm going to go with it. I don't know if I'm going to go a full marathon or a half marathon. I will increase it and do multiple races, but yeah, I don't know how far I'm going to go with it. VICTORIA: Well, it's interesting. It reminds me how, like, anytime you do something new, you're forming new neural pathways in your brain, then you can get in a routine, and it becomes easier and easier every time you do it. So, I'm going to try to relate this back to our Product Design Sprint Kit. It's like a set of exercises you can learn how to do that might be difficult at first, but then it becomes a part of the way that you work and how you build products, right? So, why don't you tell me a little bit about it? Like, what is it? What is the product design kit that you just came out with? FERDIA: The PDS kit or the Product Design Sprint Kit it was something that I'd kind of been playing around with in investment time for a while, and then spoke to Rami about it a couple of months ago, and he got on board. And it really accelerated what we were doing. And it was basically, like, a product design sprint is a known process in design and product design and product development. I think it was started by Google. And, essentially, the concept is that you can take an idea that you have for something new and, in five days, go from that idea to creating something that can be user tested, and so getting real kind of validated feedback on your idea. Yeah, so try to do it in a compressed timeframe. That's why it's called a sprint. So, you're trying to do it within five days. And the concept for kind of creating a kit that we could share to people beyond thoughtbot was that we tend to repeat a lot of the same instructions in each sprint, so we're running very similar exercises. The outcomes are slightly different, obviously, depending on the customer, but the exercises themselves are pretty similar. So, the [inaudible 06:42] kind of when we're talking to the customer are often very much the same. And we just thought that we get a lot of inquiries from start-ups, I think probably maybe even more so in Europe, before they're funded and looking kind of for the first step. Like, what can they do? So, a lot of them, if they're not in a position to, say, pay for some of our design team to come on with them and run a sprint with them, we thought it'd be cool to be able to give them, well, you know, this is something free that you can run yourself with your team and will kind of get you on the ladder. It will hopefully give you something that you can then take to an investor or somebody that could potentially fund a kind of bigger sprint or maybe even an MVP build. WILL: Let me ask you this: Why is design so important? So, if I'm a developer, or a CTO, or a CEO of whatever, why should I be an advocate for design? RAMI: Well, over here at thoughtbot, we do a lot of iterative design. I think that's a key factor that we should take into consideration. With iterative design, it's the idea of designing something based on a validation or based on a user and doing it quickly and testing it to get feedback from the user or from the market and adjust from there, instead of just designing something in, like, a silo and releasing it after six months and then discovering that you went off course four months ago. And that will cost you a lot of time, a lot of money, a lot of agony, I guess [laughs]. And it just generally will become a very frustrating process. I've seen clients before thoughtbot where they come in and they've been working on this thing for six months, and they're just not releasing and pushing the release for month on month just because the CEO does not feel like it's at par with what he's using on, like, everyday apps. And he's, like, looking at, oh, I want to look like Instagram, or feel like Instagram, or feel like whatever they like when, in reality, products don't evolve that way. And Instagram has already, I don't know, 12 years of development and design behind it. And you can't possibly expect your app that you're launching for your startup to feel the same, look the same, and all that stuff. That's why design is important. So, you just discover early on that you are on the right path and always correcting course with different design techniques, including the PDS. FERDIA: What you're talking about there just de-risks a lot of stuff for people when they're trying to create something new. You could have the, you know, a really, really impressive product under the hood that can do a lot of really technical stuff. But if it's very hard to use, or if it's very hard to kind of tap into that magic that you've built on the development side, people just won't use it, and you won't be able to generate the revenue you want. So yeah, the user experience and kind of the design around that is really important to get people actually using your product. VICTORIA: Yeah, I can relate to what you all have said. I've talked with founders before, who they maybe have a lot of experience in the industry and the problem that they are trying to solve. They think I know what it should look like. I just need developers to build it. But the activities you described about the product design sprint and creating something where you can go out and test that theory, and then incorporate that feedback into your product, and doing it within five days, it seems like a really powerful tool to be able to get you on the right path and avoid hundreds of thousands of dollars of development spend, right? FERDIA: Yeah, 100%, yeah. And, like, a typical outcome for a product design sprint will never be a fully polished, like, perfect design. That's just...it's not realistic. But what you will hopefully have by the end of that five days is you will know, okay, these are, like, five or six things that we're doing right, and these are things we should keep going with. And maybe here are three or four things that we thought users would like, or potential customers would like, and we are actually wrong about those. So, we need to change those things and maybe focus on something else. So, as Rami said, design is an iterative process that is like your first iteration. But getting that feedback is so helpful because, as Rami said, if you spend six months developing something and figure out that 4 of the ten things that you built weren't needed or were wrong, or customers just didn't want them, that's a really, really expensive exercise. So, a design sprint, kind of if you're to do them on a continuous basis or every couple of months, can be a really helpful way to check in with users to make sure what you're committing your resources to is actually going to benefit them in the long run. RAMI: Yeah. And I would also like to add, like, one of the outputs of a design sprint is a prototype. To me, I'm always like, seeing is believing. It's just better to have a prototype as a communication tool within the team with clients, with customers, with users, instead of having, like, a document or even just wireframes. It just doesn't really deliver what you're trying to do, like a prototype. FERDIA: Yeah, 100%, Rami. And, like, on the prototype, like, a good comparison that people, if they're not in product development, might have seen it's like if you're building a house, like yourself, Victoria, a lot of architects will give you two-dimensional plans. And for people that aren't in the building industry, plans can be difficult to read or difficult to visualize what those actually look like. But if you can give someone a 3D representation of the house, you know, they can see, oh yeah, this is what it's going to kind of look like and what it's going to feel like. And the prototype that Rami is talking about gives you exactly that. So, it's not just this is our idea; it's, this is actually what the thing could look like, and what do you think of that? So yeah, it's definitely a valuable output. VICTORIA: We're having this debate about whether or not we need a designer for our renovation project. And I'm very much pro [laughs] designer. And maybe that's from my background and being in software development and, like, let's get an expert in here, and they will help us figure it out [laughs], and then we'll make less mistakes and less expensive mistakes going forward. So, I think there's a lot of analogies there. So, this product design sprint is a service that we offer at thoughtbot as well, right? We do workshops and meetings together with the client, and you all have this idea to record the videos and put all the content out there for free. So, I'm curious how that conversation went within management at thoughtbot and how did the idea really get started and get some traction going. FERDIA: The benefit of the Product Design Sprint Kit what you get out of it won't replace, say, doing a product design sprint with thoughtbot because you will have expert product designers or developers in the room with you to kind of share their ideas and their experience. So, the output you're going to get from running a sprint with thoughtbot will be more beneficial, definitely. But what we were trying to, I suppose, cater for was people that fall in the gap, that they're not quite ready to bring thoughtbot on board, or they don't have enough funding to bring thoughtbot on board to do a product design sprint, or a longer discovery sprint, or something like that. But we want to be able to give those people in kind of the software community something actionable that they can actually take and use. So, the first three days, I think, of the Product Design Sprint Kit will be really, really valuable to people. It'll really help them identify the problem that they're trying to solve and then to come up with a lot of different solutions and to try to pick one of those. And probably where it's going to be a bit more challenging if you don't have experience in design or in development will be around the prototype, which Rami had spoken about. You can kind of do some offline things, and there are ways to test things without, say, a high-fidelity prototype, but those high-fidelity prototypes, again, are something that could be helpful. But thoughtbot has always had an approach of kind of giving stuff for free to the community, either open source or just letting people, yeah, letting people learn from our resources and from what we know. And so, yeah, this is just a way to, hopefully, cater to people that we currently can't work with for a variety of reasons but that this is something that they could maybe use in the meantime. MID-ROLL AD: Are you an entrepreneur or start-up founder looking to gain confidence in the way forward for your idea? At thoughtbot, we know you're tight on time and investment, which is why we've created targeted 1-hour remote workshops to help you develop a concrete plan for your product's next steps. Over four interactive sessions, we work with you on research, product design sprint, critical path, and presentation prep so that you and your team are better equipped with the skills and knowledge for success. Find out how we can help you move the needle at tbot.io/entrepreneurs. WILL: So, can you break down...you said it's five days. Can you break down what is walking you through, like, each day? And, like, what experience do I have? Because I know, I've tried to get in Figma sometimes, and it's not easy. It's a pain at times. You're trying to maneuver and stuff like that. So, what do I have to do? Like, do you show me how Figma? Do you give me a template with Figma? Like, how do you help me with those things? And I know Miro and those things. So, like, walk me through each step of the sprint. RAMI: Yeah, well, I mean, Figma and Miro are just tools that just became popular, I guess, after COVID. Design sprints used to be physical, in the same room as sprints. You would get the clients or the stakeholders in a room and do all that stuff. But Figma, FigJam, and, you know, kind of...I don't know if this was part of their, like, product thinking, but it kind of allowed doing full-on design sprints in their tools. So, the first step or the first day would be, like, the understanding day where basically we gather information about the product, the users, what's out there, and just come up with a general plan on how to go forward. And the second day would be divergent where we just look at what's out there and come up with these crazy ideas, kind of, like, a brainstorming thing but in a more inclusive, I guess, way and in a more organized way. So, you don't have people shouting over each other. Like, being anonymous also is important on this day, so nobody really knows what you're doing or saying. It's just ideas to remove bias. Then, we'd have a converge day where we take all these ideas and consolidate them, which will be an input into the prototype phase. And the last day is the test phase. I mean, each of these days you can talk...have a full podcast. VICTORIA: I'm curious about when you're testing and when you're, like, I'll say thoughtbot is a global company, right? And so, there's lots of different types of users and groups that you might be wanting to use your app. I'm thinking, you know, sometimes, in particular, some of the applications I've been looking at are targeting people who maybe they don't have an iPhone. They maybe have lower income or less means and access to get products and services. So, how does your design sprint talk to designing for different types of communities? FERDIA: I think that's a great question, Victoria. I would say the first thing on it is that we'd often get a lot of people with a startup idea, and they would come in and say, "You know, this app could be used by everybody. So, like, we have kind of no beachhead market or no target market. Like, this would be great for the whole world." That's a very nice thought to have if it is something that could potentially be used by everyone. But we would generally say you should pick a smaller niche to try to establish yourself in first and hit a home run basically with that niche first, and then kind of grow from there. We would normally say to people as, like, again, this is going back to what Rami said about the iterative process. If at the end of the five days, you've picked the wrong beachhead market and it doesn't hit home with them, that's fine. You can just do another sprint next week or next month on a different kind of subsection of the market. So, I think picking a fairly niche sector of the market is a good starting point. You then run your product design sprint with that niche in mind and try to talk to five users from that. And, generally, we say five because, generally, if you have less than or fewer than five people contributing, you probably won't get enough data. You know that you could...if you only test with two people, you probably wouldn't get a thorough enough data set. And then, normally, once you go over five, you kind of start seeing the patterns repeating themselves. You get kind of diminishing returns, I guess, after five. So, that would generally be the approach. Try to identify your beachhead market, the one you want to go into first, and then you will try to talk to five people generally from the founding team's network that match the criteria of that beachhead market. And, in some ways, just the final point, I guess, is the fact that you have to pull them from your network is actually beneficial to kind of make you narrow down and pick a niche market that's accessible to you because you know people in it. RAMI: And maybe if you don't know anybody, then maybe you're in the wrong industry. FERDIA: Yeah. Great point. Great point because, yeah, it makes it a lot easier. It's nice to have loads of industries that you could go into, but it makes it so much easier if the founding team have contacts in an industry. Yeah, it makes a big difference. WILL: Yeah, I was going through the different days and kind of what you were talking about. So, like, one day is brainstorming, then converge, and then prototyping, and user testing kind of on that last day. It seems like it's completely laid out. Like, you're giving away all the keys except experience from the actual designer. It seems like it's all laid out. Was that the goal to, like, really have them fully laid out? Hey, you can do this from point A to point B, and this is what it looks like. Is that something that you're...because that's what it looks like as my experience with designers and stuff. And if that's the case, what was your reasoning behind that, to give it away? For someone, like you said, like a startup they can do this because you pretty much laid it all out. I'm not a designer, and I don't claim to, but it looks like I can do this from what you laid out. RAMI: Well, first of all, like, at thoughtbot, we're really big into open source, and open source is not always just development. It can be these kinds of things, right? It's not a trade secret. It's not something we came up with. We maybe evolved it a little bit from Google, I think it was Google Ventures, but we just evolved it. And, at the end of the day, it's something that anybody can do. But, actually, taking the output from it is something that we do as thoughtbot. Like, okay, you have a prototype. That's great. You tested it, but okay, now we want to make it happen. If you can make it happen, then great, but the reality is that a lot of people can't, and that's why there are, like, a gazillion agencies out there that do these things. So, the reasoning, I guess, and Ferdia can expand on, is, like, if somebody takes this and comes up with a great prototype and feels confident that they actually want to develop this idea, who else would be better than thoughtbot who actually gave them the keys to everything? FERDIA: Yeah, 100%, Rami. Yeah, it's essentially just helping people get on the first rung of the product development ladder with fewer barriers to entry, so you don't have to have a couple of thousand dollars saved up to run a sprint. This kind of gives you a really, really low entry point. And I guess there's another use case for it where you would often have potentially founders or even companies that want to release a new product or feature. And they might reach out to thoughtbot because they want to develop something, and they're very sure that this is what we want to develop. And, you know, maybe they don't want to engage with a product design sprint or something like that if they think they know their market well enough. And this could be a handy tool just to say to them, "Okay, if you can go away, take this free resource for a week, run a product design sprint with your team, and come back to us and tell us that nothing has changed, you know that you've correctly identified the right market and that you've validated your theories with them," then we can kind of jump into development from there. But yeah, it can be a good way, I suppose, to show the value of doing a product design sprint. As I said, a lot of people come in, and they have great ideas, and they can be fairly certain that this is going to work. But a product design sprint is really, really valuable to validate those before you dive into building. VICTORIA: And can you give us an example from your experience of a client who went through a product design sprint and decided to pivot maybe their main idea and go in a different direction? FERDIA: I'm not sure off the top of my head, Victoria, if I can pick one that pivoted in a completely different direction, but definitely, like, some of the clients that we worked with on the Fusion team in thoughtbot ended up changing direction or changing the customer that they were going after. So, some people might have had an idea in their head of who they wanted to tackle and might have had a particular, say, feature prioritized for that person. And through the product design sprint, we were able to validate that, actually, this feature is not that important. This other feature is more important, and it's more important to a different group than kind of what you initially thought. That would happen fairly regularly on a product design sprint. Like, I think if you look at the potential outcomes, one being that everything's exactly as you thought it was and you can proceed as planned, or the opposite end of the spectrum where nothing is as you thought it was and, you know, you kind of have to go back to the drawing board, it's very rare that you're on either end of those after a product design sprint. Most of the time, you're somewhere in the middle. You've changed a few things, and you're able to keep a few things, and that's kind of normally where they land. So, I would say nearly every customer that we've done a product design sprint with has changed some things, but never kind of gone back to the drawing board and started from scratch. RAMI: It's usually prioritization and just understanding what to do and also, like, get into the details of how to do it. That's where the value comes in. But, like, completely pivoting from a food delivery app to, I don't know, NFTs [laughs] never really happened. VICTORIA: Yeah, and it doesn't have to necessarily be a big pivot but looking for, like, a real-world example, like, maybe you're building an e-commerce site for a plant marketplace or something like that. RAMI: Yeah. Well, we had a self-help app where they already had the app in the market. It was a progressive web app, and they were really keen on improving this mood tracker feature. But then we did a product design sprint, and they had a bunch of other features, and that exercise kind of reprioritized. And the mood tracker ended up not being released in the first version of the actual mobile app because we were also developing a native app. VICTORIA: Gotcha. So, they were pretty convinced that this was an important feature that people wanted to track their mood in their app. And then, when they went through and tested it, users were actually like, "There's this other feature that's more important to me." FERDIA: One example of another client that we did, which was a kind of a wellness app, they wanted it to feel like a friend in your pocket. So, they were looking at ways to integrate with WhatsApp that you'd get notifications via WhatsApp. So, they would kind of be, like, friendly messages to people as if it's your friend, you know, texting you to check in. And that was kind of an idea going into it, and users did not like that at all. Like, they really didn't like that. So, we ditched that [inaudible 25:49] completely. But, again, that could have been something that they would have spent a long time developing to try to implement, and then to have users say this would have been a very, very costly waste of time. So, we figured that out in a few days, which was a money saver for the team. VICTORIA: And it must be pretty emotional to have that feedback, right? Like, it's better to get it early on so that you don't invest all the money and time into it. But as a founder, I'm sure you're so passionate about your ideas, and you really think you have the answers from your experience, most likely. So, I'm curious if there's any kind of emotional management you do with clients during this product design sprint. FERDIA: I think it definitely is. I think people, as I said, often come in with very strong opinions of what they feel will work. And it might even be a product that they specifically want, or they might be one of those potential users. And I actually think, say, engaging an agency like thoughtbot to design something like that, if we felt that they were going down the wrong path, that could be actually quite difficult to do. But because of product design sprints, you are user-testing it. The founders are hearing this feedback from the horse's mouth, so to speak. They're hearing it directly from potential customers. So, it's a lot more black and white. Now, sometimes, it might still be a case that a founder then doesn't want to proceed with that idea if it's not kind of going to be the way that they wanted it to be, and that's fair enough as well. But the feedback, as I said, it tends not to be that the idea is completely scrapped. It just means that you move a couple of things around. As Rami said, you deprioritize some things and prioritize other things for the first version, and that tends to be the outcome of it. VICTORIA: Are the users always right, or is it sometimes you can have an idea that persist, despite the early feedback from users? RAMI: Interesting question. Like, I see the parallels you're doing with the customer is always right, yeah. But the thing is, like, that's just my opinion, I think. We tested with users, and we kind of observe how they react to it and how they use the prototype. So, it's not like an opinion session or, like, a focus group where they're actually giving...a user can say something and do something else or react in a different way. But yeah, it's a fine line, I think. But I would be really surprised if ten users would agree on something and say something, and their behavior also would reflect that, and we won't pick up on. VICTORIA: Yes, I like the distinction you're making between what they say and then what the behavior shows, right? FERDIA: I think something important there as well, like you'll often hear it in design communities, is that you should listen to the feedback from customers but maybe not the solutions that they're proposing. Because, at the end of the day, like, thoughtbot have experts in product design and product development, so we want to figure out from the user's perspective what they want to achieve and maybe what their problems are, but not necessarily take into account or just, I suppose, not necessarily just follow exactly what they say the solution should be. You're kind of looking for the problems and the things that they're struggling with. You're trying to pick those up rather than just to do the solution that the customer is telling you. And you'll see that in a lot of startups as well that, you know, it's the famous Henry Ford quote about, you know, "If I'd listened to my customers, I'd have designed a faster horse." Sometimes, you need to listen to the problem, and the problem is getting from A to B faster, and then you come up with a solution for that rather than the solution that's been recommended to you. WILL: I want to pivot a little bit and ask you both, why did you get into design? FERDIA: I actually did architecture in university, and there were aspects of that I liked. Funnily enough, it's a fairly similar process to designing for software, and then it's an iterative approach. You're given a brief and yet you kind of take a concept forward. But then, when you apply for planning, you have to make changes. And when you kind of put [inaudible 29:41], you make changes. So, you're constantly, I suppose, designing iteratively. And then I got into startups and was kind of wearing a lot of different hats in that startup sort of world. But the product was the one area that always kind of got me excited. So, you know, if you tried to make a sale with a particular customer and they didn't want to go over something, like, coming home and trying to figure out, okay, how can I fix that problem with the product so that next time when I go to a customer, and they'll say, "Yes"? That was kind of what always gave me the adrenaline. So yeah, comparatively, between architecture and software, the turnaround times in software is so much faster that I think it's more enjoyable than architecture. You kind of can really see progress. Product design sprint in five days. You can kind of take something a long way whereas designing a building is a bit slower, but it's always kind of been some area of interest. Well, what about you, Rami? RAMI: Well, I wanted to become a hacker, but I ended up to be a designer [laughs]. No, really, when, like, in middle school, I really wanted to be a hacker and kept looking up what is it. Like, I see it in all these movies really cool, and I wanted to understand, like, how it's done online. And I saw, like, everybody is talking about this weird, little thing called command line. And it turns out, like, all these hacking, quote, unquote, "hacking tutorials" were done on Linux. So, I started looking into Linux and got into Linux. From there, I started blogging about Linux, and then I just really got into technology. I was in marketing. By then, I was a marketing major. So, that got me into blogging into, like, Linux and open source, which kind of triggered in my head, okay, I need to maybe pivot to a different career path. So, I did a master's degree in information management. Over there, I stumbled into design. The information management school that I was in, like, it was an interdisciplinary school at, like, design, coding, and business all mixed in. So, I stumbled in design there. VICTORIA: That's how you all got started. And now you've put this product out there pretty recently. I'm curious if you have thought about how you would measure the success of this effort. So, how do you know that what you put out there in the product designs kit is helping people or achieving the goals that you had originally set out to? FERDIA: Initially, Victoria, we obviously like to see the view counts going up on YouTube, and we're always open to feedback. So, like, at the end of each video and in the resources and stuff, we've got contact us kind of links and stuff. So, if people have feedback on how we could make it better or more useful, that would be really, really welcome. So, do feel free to reach out to us. And kind of the ultimate success metric for us would be to have somebody come to us in future and say, "Oh, we used that Product Design Sprint Kit that you produced before, and we either got funding or, you know, we got so much value out of it that we'd like to do a full product design sprint or an MVP build, or something like that." And the equivalent that we would kind of have a lot of in thoughtbot would be, say, gems in development where we would get people reaching out and say, "We use that gem all the time. We know about thoughtbot because of that." That kind of is a way to establish trust with potential customers. So, we're hoping that this is somewhat of an equivalent on the design side. WILL: Oh, it's been great chatting with both of you about design and what you came up with this. I really like it. I'm going to look more into it. VICTORIA: Yes. Thank you both for joining us. And I had one question. So, the sprint is the short-term. What would be, like, a product design marathon? Like, what's [chuckles] the big picture for people who are building products? Maybe that's a silly question, but... RAMI: No, it's not, I mean, but I would guess it's actually building the product and having a successful product in the market and iterate over it for years and years. VICTORIA: Yeah. So, it's a one-week sprint, and you could do it over and over again for many years just to fine-tune and really make sure that your product is meeting the needs of the people you were hoping to reach. Wonderful. All right. Well, thank you both so much for joining us. WILL: You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter @will23larry. VICTORIA: And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions.

Hosts Will Larry and Victoria Guido are joined by Wes Bos, a full-stack developer, course creator, and podcaster. Wes shares his web development journey, from blogging and creating a successful book on Sublime Text to developing his popular online courses and hosting the Syntax podcast. He talks about the spontaneous start of his teaching career, his approach to creating content that is both approachable and practical, and the importance of making web development accessible to all learners. Wes discusses the evolution of his career, detailing his experiences in teaching at Ladies Learning Code and HackerYou and how he transitioned into selling online courses. He emphasizes the significance of offering quality content in his free and paid courses, ensuring his teachings are relatable and helpful for real-world applications. Wes also delves into the technical aspects of managing his course platform, discussing the benefits of having complete control over his content and the challenges he faces, such as content theft and logistical issues in distributing his popular sticker packs. The conversation shifts to the role of AI in web development, where Wes highlights its impact on coding efficiency and the need for developers to adapt to AI integration in applications. He advises beginners in web development to be wary of over-relying on AI, emphasizing the importance of understanding the fundamentals of coding. The episode concludes with Wes offering advice for content creators in the tech space, stressing the importance of sharing knowledge and its positive impact on the community. He encourages listeners to stay passionate and continuously learn in the ever-evolving field of web development. Wes' Online Courses (https://wesbos.com/courses) Sublime Text Power User Book (https://wesbos.com/sublime-text-book) Syntax Podcast (https://syntax.fm/) Ladies Learning Code (https://www.canadalearningcode.ca/) HackerYou (Now Juno College) (https://junocollege.com/) Follow Wes Bos on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/wesbos/) or X (https://twitter.com/wesbos). Visit his website: wesbos.com (https://wesbos.com/). Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: WILL: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giants Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry. VICTORIA: And I'm your other host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Wes Bos, a Full-Stack Developer, Coursemaker, and Podcaster. Wes, thank you for joining us. WES: Thanks for having me; stoked to be here. VICTORIA: Can you tell me, you know, on top of all of these skills that you have, podcasting, you're making courses; you're also doing development full-time; I heard that you've also picked up a new hobby in making stickers and, like, designing merch for aligning with some of your marketing goals. WES: Yeah. All right. So, my name is Wes Bos. I'm a full-stack developer from Canada, and I do primarily two things: I make web development training courses, and I have a podcast called Syntax in which we release three episodes a week and talk about everything related to HTML, CSS, JavaScript, Node, just web development and things that surround it. WILL: I want to see how you started in those courses. I know a little bit about your story because I remember when I first started in development. I think it's gotten a little better, but I was the only junior at one of the first companies I started at. And I went through a bootcamp and then became a junior. And I was like, how do I develop? Like, how do I get better? And they were like, "Wes Bos, his course. WES: [laughs] WILL: Go to Wes Bos." [laughs] And so, I did that, and it helped me tremendously. But it's interesting. I just want to see how you started. I know some of your background with ladies who code, and I think HackerYou. So yeah, wherever you want to start, bring us into the beginning of Wes Bos. WES: So, I've been a web developer forever, a good chunk of my life. And back in, like, the blogging days, I was doing a lot of posting blog posts and whatnot. And I had a couple of the blog posts do super well. And back in the day, it was like, you get tons of traffic, and you try to, like, seize the moment. Like, oh, there's, like, 50, 000 people on my website right now. Like, how do I, like, take advantage of that? So, what I did was I threw up a quick, little...it was a blog post about Sublime Text, which was the hot, new editor at the time. And I threw up a little thing. I'm like, I'm writing a book about Sublime Text. And I threw up a little sign-up where people could pop their email in and hear a little bit more about it. And I got, like, 2,000 signups for that in a matter of a couple of days. And I thought like, oh, all right, well, now I got to make this thing, you know, like, I just [chuckles] I didn't have any plans to make it. I had kind of been going around in my head, but I decided to write the book. And then as part of the book, I gave a bunch of videos, and I realized I liked the video part a lot better. And it makes a lot of sense to show people what you are doing when you're talking about code and code-related things. So, I came out with a bunch of videos for that as well. People loved the videos, and I thought, oh, let's just keep doing this. So, I made a bunch of free courses, a bunch of paid courses. And kind of at the same time as well, I was teaching at this thing called Ladies Learning Code, which kind of transitioned into a bootcamp that I did the initial content for, which was called HackerYou. And, like, people kept giving me the same feedback into like, I'm not a traditional teacher. I'm just a web developer that has learned on his own and figured things out. And a lot of people said, like, " I really like the way that you explain things. Like, it makes so much sense the way that you explain it." And I figured out that, at least for some people, they really like the way that I explain something, and I will continue to do that. So, that's pretty much how I got into it. It's just explaining how it works in my head, putting it onto video, and putting it out there for web developers to learn from. WILL: Yeah. And that was one of the reasons why I think I was so successful in my career is because there's a...Just learning development is hard; let's be honest. It's just hard. And I would run into people that would honestly just talk over my head, and I was like, I have no idea what you're saying, but okay. But your courses, it was like, oh, okay, I understand that. That makes sense. Like, I can't remember the name of it, but the React beginner course I've been to that one probably three times just because I'm like, it's making sense. And every time, I get more and more and more out of it. So, I can definitely agree that the way you teach your courses it brings it down to earth. Like, I think maybe anybody could pick it up, I would say, because it's like you're talking to them, so yeah. WES: It's really important to me that everything is approachable. And I will often explain things, like, I'm the same as you. There's extremely smart people out there, and they'll just talk at you about all of these things. And it's just like, I have no idea what you're talking about. Those words don't make any sense to me. And it's not that I dumb it down. It's just like, the way that it makes sense in my brain is not the same way that they're talking. So, the way that I explain it is just how it makes sense to me, and people tend to really enjoy that type of thing. And I really hope that I can make a lot of this web development stuff approachable. And sometimes it's not the, like, exact perfect explanation of how something really works, the explanation you need to understand how these pieces fit together and when you would actually use something. That's the other part of a lot of the stuff that I teach as well is that I have this big thing on one of my course websites, which is like, no foo bar baz. Because when you're learning to code, you stumble across all these foo bar baz where people are making functions and passing the values in, and they're called meta-syntactic variables. The whole idea is that because foo bar baz mean nothing, you're able to take it out of context and focus on what is happening, and I'm quite the opposite. Show me a real example of a bunch of dogs, or a sandwich, or a button that you can click on that fetches data. And I always try to make my examples something that is real world enough that you could understand, okay, I see where this might be used rather than something in isolation because I find that myself very frustrating. VICTORIA: What's one of your favorite examples or, like, example scenarios that you use when you're designing a code problem to teach people? WES: It really comes down to, like, what you're teaching, but the ongoing joke on the podcast that we have is that I always use sandwiches because a sandwich is a great metaphor for a lot of things in life. So, for example, when we talk about streaming versus buffering, and we talk about, like, you're eating the sandwich as it's coming into your house versus you're cutting it into pieces and eating it. Or in my upcoming TypeScript course, I have a bunch of examples where there can be multiple types of food, and a sandwich can be one of them, and a pizza can be another one. And that kind of shows how to use generics, right? Like, you might have a database entry that is a food entry, but you want to further that to be a sandwich or a pizza, and not all of them are that simple, right? Like, a lot of them are also just related to web development, which is like, here's buttons that you need to click on, and here's data that you need to fetch, and here's a database schema that needs to happen. And if that's the case, I try to, like, make it real world enough where you can say, okay, I understand that this is how it works. Now, how can I apply that to my own idea? Because often, people learning to code have their own ideas. They just want to make something to solve their own problems. WILL: How did you learn to code? Because I don't think you did a traditional route. I remember on one of your podcasts, you said your dad was in IT, but I don't think you went to a traditional route. So, how did you learn to code? WES: It's a really long story. But the story is that I got into computers at an early age. I got into designing T-shirts and CD art for a lot of, like, hardcore bands in the music scene when I was in high school, and that parlayed into Myspace. Myspace taught me CSS. And then I've always been, like, fairly entrepreneurial, so that I parlayed into running my own business, making websites. And I've just been at it for so long that I've sort of taught myself all the pieces that I need over the years. I do have a degree in what's called business technology management, which is, it's a business degree but no coding or things involved. It was more, like, higher level. There was some, like, networking IP addresses, and then there was a lot more, like, business management teams, procurement, SAP, things like that, so none of the web development stuff I have learned comes from that degree. It's all self-taught. VICTORIA: So, you found that you had the skill around explaining web development concepts, and then that led to you creating your own business and having your own, like, coursework out there and everything through your podcast. So, maybe you could share a little bit what that journey has been like. WES: It's been a very long journey. I'm not sure which part you want to hear about, but I've been selling courses for probably about nine years. And I have sold quite a bit because I also offer about half of them for free. So, I have a bunch of free ones where people take it, and they're like, "Oh, this is amazing. I'm going to take the paid one that he has as well." And I spend a lot of time making sure that the free ones and the paid ones are the same quality. Like, it's not just some crappy 10-minute course that I'm using as a lead magnet to get you in the door. Like, they're actually pretty good. So, it's been really fun. Like, I've built a whole course platform that sells all of my courses, and you can view them and stream them, and there's invoicing and checkouts built into it. So, like now, if somebody wants to get into selling courses, there's lots of options out there where you can sign up for some SaaS and upload your course, and you're up and running. But at the time when I had done it, there was nothing like that out there, so I had to build my own whole course platform. And I've really enjoyed working on that over the years and upgrading it, and changing it, and rewriting, and adding features to it. VICTORIA: Yeah, that's really interesting. I like that you kept the quality the same on the free and the paid versions. That's a really interesting, I think, like, a reflection of your own values. And then, I'm curious: now that there are other hosting options out there, is there anything that would make you decide to switch to one of those platforms? Because it also sounds like you're getting a lot of enjoyment about managing the one you have yourself, and there might be some other benefits to that. WES: Yeah, probably not. First, because they take a cut, and a lot of these course platforms are not there to promote your business. They're there to promote their own business. And it's the same thing with YouTube. When your YouTube video ends, what does YouTube recommend? They usually recommend what you think you're going to watch, which is sometimes somebody else's video, right? And not having full control over how the courses are sold and consumed, to me, can be a little bit frustrating because you can't do different ideas that you have. So, like, one of the ideas I had early on is I was getting lots of email from people in different countries, you know, in Argentina, and in Brazil, and in India. And they say, "Hey, like, I would love to take your course, but the cost of the course is a day, a week's wages, and that's way too expensive for me." So, I implemented this thing called parity purchasing power. I didn't come up with the economic concept of it, but I was the first person to offer different prices based on the country that the user was coming from. And, A, that's a cool thing to do for people, and B, it helps sales tremendously. And if I was using some course platform, some of the course platforms now have that in place; it's table stakes, right? But at the time, I don't think I would have done as well if I hadn't coded that in myself. So, having full control over absolutely everything is really important to me. And also, like, nobody wants a teacher who doesn't actually build stuff, you know? No one wants to learn from the guy who just, like, skimmed the docs and came up with a crappy, little example. Like, you want to learn from people who are daily writing code and building real-world applications that, like, I have to support my family on this application, you know, it's pretty important, and it's pretty real world. WILL: Yeah, and just following you, I think...and I don't know if you would describe yourself like that, but I think you're, like, a tinkerer. Like, you just...some of the ideas you have is just like, let me just try it out and see if it works. And so, that's amazing that you're able to do that. Where does that side come from? Was it from your dad being in IT, or where did that come from? WES: Probably. Apart from growing up and seeing my dad just fix stuff and do stuff, but I'm just a constantly curious and hungry guy. And I absolutely love dipping into different tech and not even just tech but, like, I built this whole recording studio that's soundproofed. I built the whole thing myself just because I love to learn new things and to dive deep and learn how everything works. And I think a lot of developers very easily burn out. And I always like to say, like, my competitive advantage is not burning out. So, I'm very cognizant of that might happen at some point. And part of the cure for me is I need to be excited about this type of stuff, and I need to be using it. And being able to build new things, and dip into tech, and learn constantly is what keeps me excited and motivated about web development. WILL: Wow. So, you say you built your office. So, you built the entire, like, from concrete up? WES: Not concrete up. So, this was like a...I'm in a basement right now, and I put up some walls. And I talked to a bunch of sound engineers about soundproofing. So, the whole ceiling is not mechanically fastened to the actual ceiling. It's like kind of, like, a floating ceiling, which is pretty cool. And then there's soundproofing material in the walls and outside the walls, and special drywall, and all kinds of interesting stuff to make it sound as good as possible and be as quiet as possible in here because I have three kids. WILL: [laughs] I totally understand the three kids... WES: [laughs] WILL: And the noise that that brings. So, that's amazing. And I think you bring up something that we don't talk about enough in development is that mental health side. Like, just trying to figure out, what do you like to do outside of your computer, away from your computer? So, that's neat that you're working on that, and that that's probably why you haven't burnt out compared to other people. But yeah, kudos to you. That's yeah, that's pretty interesting that you have hobbies outside of that. WES: Yeah, I find that pretty important to sort of keep that balance. Otherwise, if you're doing it day in, day out, especially if you're working on the same thing...like, another benefit I have is I'm always dipping into new stuff, and that keeps it really interesting. But there's plenty of other creators out there that go too hard, and they go 24/7 on it, and then you don't hear from them for six months. And it's because they got burnt out on it, which is very scary to me that that might happen to me at some point. So, I try...I don't know if I've got it figured out, but I try to combat that as much as possible. VICTORIA: And I'm wondering how you balance just that need to create content because it seems to me that web development is constantly changing, right? And so, content that you created a year ago, maybe you got to go back and update everything. So, how do you manage that and keep your content fresh with all the ongoing changes in web development? WES: Yeah, unfortunately, sometimes it means you just have to deprecate content, or you say, "Hey, this is not the content you should be taking right now," because some of the courses take four or five months to record, and after a year or two, they can be out of date. So, I'll mark them as deprecated if they need to be. But I'm just kind of always working on something new, both with my courses as well as, like, the podcast. We always just have...that's the kind of the benefit of the job as well is that, like, yeah, it changes all the time, but there's always new stuff to talk about. As somebody who makes a living explaining how new things work, it's kind of nice. VICTORIA: That's great. You got a good pipeline of content to talk about [laughs] and to update for, so that's great. Mid-Roll Ad: As life moves online, bricks-and-mortar businesses are having to adapt to survive. With over 18 years of experience building reliable web products and services, thoughtbot is the technology partner you can trust. We provide the technical expertise to enable your business to adapt and thrive in a changing environment. We start by understanding what's important to your customers to help you transition to intuitive digital services your customers will trust. We take the time to understand what makes your business great and work fast yet thoroughly to build, test, and validate ideas, helping you discover new customers. Take your business online with design‑driven digital acceleration. Find out more at tbot.io/acceleration or click the link in the show notes for this episode. VICTORIA: You know, you're creating this content for web developers, and you have this kind of global audience now. What's on the horizon for you? What are you planning for in the next couple of months or in the next five years? WES: Yeah, next couple of months, I have a TypeScript course I've been working on for over a year now. I've been sort of cranking on it, and that will be out. And then we have a podcast that we are going to be launching a video version of pretty soon, which I'm pretty excited about. We've been kind of going pretty hard. We just hired a producer. We've been going pretty hard on, like, the social clips type of thing. So, that's coming down the pipeline as well. And five years, I have no idea. I think I always say, like, a five-year plan is a five-year guess. You know, like, you can plan ahead for six months, a year, and have some good goals. But in web development, like, a year ago, AI, maybe a year, like, 13 months ago, the AI stuff was nothing but a murmur, right? And now, the AI stuff is a good chunk of what I talk about and what I teach. So, you just kind of got to react to it; otherwise, if you have a five-year plan, then you're not going to be able to catch these new things that pop up. WILL: How do you pick? Because I know you said you have a TypeScript course coming out. How do you pick new topics to talk about? Because there are so many. There's testing you can talk about. There's React Native. There are so many areas you can go to. How do you pick and choose that? WES: It's actually pretty easy because it's what I'm excited about and what I want to tell people and teach people, like, what they should be learning. So, like, every single one of my courses is tech that I myself am using and that I want to help teach other people, so it's pretty straightforward. It's not like I have some sort of, like, stats of, like, what is the most popular framework out there, and, like, obviously, that does play into it like a Next.js course. I've used Next.js in a couple of my courses. I'll probably do another Next.js course. But that's both because I enjoy it and because it's stable enough and popular enough that people would want to buy it. I'm not going to be creating a Java course or a Rust course or something like that because I know that's popular right now, and it would probably sell well. It's just not something I know enough about, or I'm excited about. VICTORIA: Yeah, and I'm curious to go back to your comment about AI and just ask you, how are you talking about it in your courses? What are, like, the things you think it's really important for developers to know right now about AI and web development? WES: There's kind of, like, two parts to it. First, there's the part of, like, using AI to help you code. So, there's all these, like, coding assistants that get in your editor, and you can send them your code, and it can help you decipher it, and it can scaffold out code. Those things are really, really good. And I know a lot of developers are hesitant about it because, like, "Who knows what kind of code it's generating? And you still have to be able to understand it. And I prefer to write it by hand." And that's a valid opinion, but, like, I don't think that that's going forward. And I think that this AI stuff is making us so much more efficient in writing code that if you're not picking it up, I think that you might be at a little bit of a disadvantage there. So, there's that [SP] hunk. And then there's also the, like, we're going to have to start implementing this stuff into the apps that we build, and whether it's just pinging in an AI service and getting data back or creating a bunch of embeddings so you can have related, like, for a blog post or for a podcast, we want related podcasts. Or if you want to use AI to, like...group tagging on a blog is a really annoying thing. Nobody uses tags well enough. But, like, what if the tags could just be automatically generated based on the words in the post or the words that we speak on the podcast? So, there's just, like, so many, like, new features that will make it better. Your product is going to be better for your end user. And even starting now and, like, when those features are not enabled, like, it's not, like, necessarily an AI feature, but it's like, wow, I wish this had better grouping of podcasts, or I wish that you had better tagging, or that your search is not very good because it's just a text match whereas there's a lot more depth that could be added with AI. So, integrating AI into our websites and our applications that we're building is going to become just another skill that you, as a web developer, have. VICTORIA: No, I think that's a really interesting take on it. And I'm curious if you've also seen AI used to even, like, suggest better standards for code or certain design patterns and, like, tools that help you, like what you said, kind of get better at coding faster. WES: That's the thing people are talking about. Like, if you're learning to code, should you use these types of things? Because, like, you can just hit Tab a couple of times, and it might look good. And it certainly can bite you. Especially if you need to be able to go back and edit that code to fix it, you need to understand how it works, so there's that part of it. But, man, does it make you faster for doing a lot of common things that you will be doing over again. It just really helps you out, so I'm a big fan of it. I have lots of complaints about it as well, but I think it's here to stay. VICTORIA: [laughs] Yeah, it's here to stay. And I've talked to founders who are really excited about it, and maybe they weren't, you know, they don't have years and years of React development experience, but they know the functions that their app needs to do. And they're able to use coding prompts and tools to kind of create at least a minimal product of what they want to build, so it's really exciting. WILL: I totally agree with AI because I use some, especially with the coding, and it makes it so much faster, but I do think you still have to know what you're doing. Because I think you posted on it, like, in one of the coding helpers that I use in VS Code, it still doesn't know how to close out the end of the line. You have these extra backticks or whatever. And it is like, so, as a new developer, you still have to understand your code, or that's going to drive you crazy every time that you use it [chuckles]. WES: Yeah, that's extremely frustrating, the backticks. I've had an issue open on GitHub Copilot for about a year now. They've said they fixed it, and a couple of little situations, it's been fixed. But I would love to, like, talk to somebody about, like, the actual issue because if you give the broken code back to the AI and say, "Fix it," it fixes it. So [laughs], it knows what's wrong. I just, I don't know. Yeah, you still have to know these things. WILL: You taught at Ladies Learning Code and then HackerYou. Did that help you overcome the imposter syndrome of teaching? I don't know if you knew how big your courses were going to become. But what did the imposter syndrome look like for you during that time, or did you even have it? WES: To a certain point, yeah. I think everybody has imposter syndrome, and that's good. Because if you're so confident that you're so amazing and blessed at this specific thing, then your head is probably too big, and [chuckles] you probably don't know what you don't know. But with a lot of my stuff, I'll often just ask people who know better than me. Like, that's a big part of what it is, is you can just consult experts or like, "Hey, what do you think about this?" Or "Is this the best approach?" Or "Here's my code. Do you mind running through it really quickly and see if there's anything that sticks out?" People are often, like, you can pay them, or people are often willing to help, so there's that. And like, also, you have to just know that this is for the people who enjoy it. Like, I'm not making courses for people who are better developers than I am. I'm making courses for people who like the way that I explain specific things. And then, like, another thing that probably really helped me is that I have, like, a 100% money back, no time limit on it. And that just makes me feel good about like, hey, like, if this is not actually good, if you do not think that this is good, or if you just don't jive with the way that I explain things, no sweat, you know, here's your money back. You keep going. And that makes me feel a lot better because it's not like I'm trying to fleece somebody for money and trick them into buying the course. Like, I feel pretty good about it, and if you feel pretty good about it, then we're both happy. WILL: Yeah, that's amazing because I feel like there's certain things that I would love to get started, but that imposter syndrome and also, like, the opinionated developers out there, like, you know what we are talking about. But it just seems like it would be hard to start with that. So, that's why I asked that question. WES: Yeah, I've learned that, like, a lot of these people that have these extremely harsh opinions are, A, they lack all the social skills, so there's something with them that they just don't have it. And you have to understand that that's just something that they have, and they may not be trying to be a jerk. That's just kind of the way they are. And if people are overly opinionated, it's usually because they're, like, covering for their own insecurity of what they want, not always. But a lot of times, I feel pretty good about people telling me, "Oh, you could do it this way," or "No, why are you doing it this way?" Like, I feel pretty confident in my skillset, but I also am always willing to learn and always willing to be corrected and learn new tips and techniques because that's how you get better. So, the people that are constantly being angry online and throwing around opinions and saying things are garbage, that's very scary for beginners because they think, oh, like, am I learning the wrong thing? I don't want to waste my time here. Like, am I going to lose my job if I don't learn it? And the reality is it's not that cut and dry, you know, it's a lot more easygoing. So, I try to convey that as well. And I don't put too much into these silly people who get really angry at semicolons or something silly like that. WILL: That's good advice. That's good advice. Because I think there's been some stuff that I want to do, that's held me back. So, that's really good advice. I appreciate it. WES: Yeah, just do it, like, you never know. Like, if someone's calling you out for putting yourself out there, like, that's a really big jerk thing to do. And I've called people out as well. Like, I don't get it as much anymore, and that probably has to do something with the fact that I've sort of established myself. But several times in the early days, people would be, like, mean. And I would just be like, "Hey, like, just call people out, like, nicely, but, like, hey, you don't have to be mean about it. I'm just trying to share what I've learned here." And that usually gets them. VICTORIA: Yeah. It's like, what are your intentions with providing this feedback to me right now? Like, are you trying to help? [laughs] Because it doesn't really feel that way. No, I appreciate that. And, you know, I'm also...part of thoughbot we've traditionally put out a lot of trainings, a lot of, you know, Upcase things on Ruby on Rails. And with my team, I'm looking at putting together some workshops around site reliability engineering and things that would be helpful for developers to learn how to instrument their code. So, speaking of advice that you would give to maybe any engineer or any developer who's looking to share their expertise, or put together a course, or even a blog post about what they're learning, like, what would you advise someone who's trying to create content like that? WES: Put it out there. When I released my Sublime textbook, keep in mind, a book about Sublime Text that's a pretty niche thing, there was already two books out there on that exact topic. And a couple of times, I was like, is anyone going to want this? There's already one of them out there. Should I even write this blog post? There's 70 out there. And just keep in mind that, like, the way that you explain it or the specific issue that you hit or whatever, it might be the way that really clicks for somebody else. So, I always tell people just put it out there. You never know what is going to come of it. It's likely going to be a net positive for the web development world in general. So, don't ever feel that you shouldn't put yourself out there because you might not know absolutely everything about it. Just share what you know. That's how we get better. VICTORIA: Yeah, I had a friend many years ago who we used to organize Women Who Code, and she said, "Do you think anyone would really be interested in, like, a cloud series of these topics?" And we're like, "Oh, maybe not." In the first event we had around Cloud for Women Who Code, I think, like, 30 people showed up. So yeah, put it out there, see who's interested, and go from there. That's great advice. WES: Yeah. On the same topic, is like, 'Will somebody want this?' is a huge question. People always come to me and they say, "Hey, do you think if I make a course on X, Y, and Z, will people buy it?" Or they'll put out a tweet that says, "Hey, would you buy this, or would you attend this?" And everybody's always like, "Yes, yes, yes," just trying to be supportive. But at the end of the day, you have to test these things by actually putting things out there. So, for me, how did I know the first thing I wanted to do was Sublime Text? It's because I put out blog posts on probably 20 different topics, and those were the posts that just hit really well, and they really resonated with people. So, like, if you're trying to understand, like, will it work? You can test those things very easily by putting a YouTube video up, putting a couple of TikToks up, write a blog post, put a couple of tweets up. And, eventually, when you put out enough content, you're going to start to see a trend in a specific area, and that will give you a little bit of guidance as to what it is you should pursue. WILL: That's great advice. Have you had any hurdles through your journey of online courses and the podcast, releasing podcasts? WES: I feel like I'm always, like, course-correcting. I've never had, like, a flop. And, like, I've had courses I've shelved. Early on, after Sublime Text, I was like, I'm going to do a gulp course, which was, like, a build tool for JavaScript. And then webpack started to get a little bit more popular, and I was like, okay, well, maybe I'll just make a tooling course in general, but I was like, ah, that's kind of way too big. And after, like, working on it for a couple of weeks, I was like, you know what? Like, I'm going to scrap this because I don't think that this is it, you know? So, just kind of always listening, always feedback, and course correcting is probably my biggest advice there for the hurdles. There's stuff that comes up, like people stealing the courses. And, like, I had early access to one of my courses once, and somebody bought it with a stolen credit card and then put it up online. And, like, that's incredibly deflating because now there's your unfinished course out there before people could even buy it. And people will spam you and run DDoS attacks on you and lots of stuff like that, where people are just...they see that. And that's always really frustrating, but you kind of roll with the punches and kind of keep working on it. WILL: Wow. That's interesting. So, someone bought the course with a stolen credit card, and they released it early to the public? WES: Yeah. I don't know if I should say this or not, but there's a very large Russian website that is...literally, they have a paid membership, and the whole point is that you pay for the membership, and you get access to every course ever. Sometimes, they use paid cards, and sometimes it's stolen cards. WILL: Oh, wow. WES: They just buy every course by every creator, and they put it up on this thing. And you can get it for free for the first, like, three months, and then it goes under their paid thing. And that stuff was really frustrating to me at first, but I've learned just to...the web development community is incredibly supportive, and I have nothing to complain about, really. People who do want to support you will support you. WILL: That's neat. That's really neat. VICTORIA: Yeah. And speaking of the web development community, are there events or conferences you go to or different, like, places where you really connect to the web development community? WES: Yeah. Conferences are fantastic. I really enjoy that those are back. So, React Miami is coming up. It's going to be a really fun one. But I go to a couple of conferences a year, and I usually speak at them. We also do meetups every now and then with Syntax where we'll rent out a bar and get a bunch of merch and stickers and just kind of chit-chat with everybody. That's honestly, my favorite is just going to a meetup where there's no talks or anything. It's just a bunch of interesting people in a room, and you get to talk with all kinds of cool people. VICTORIA: That's fun, yeah. I've been organizing a monthly CTO lunch down here in San Diego, and it's like, we just get together and have lunch and, like, talk about different stuff [laughs]. WES: Love it. VICTORIA: And it's really great. I used to organize those meetups with, like, two speakers, and then there was pizza and drinks and all that stuff to coordinate. And it's a lot easier just to kind of get everyone together and talk, which is what most people want anyways [laughs]. WES: I'm always bummed when you go to a conference and the, like, after party has, like, a band or, like, music is bumping. It's like, I just want a quiet room with some drinks that I can talk to people and have a good conversation, you know. VICTORIA: Yeah, I go to a lot of events, a lot of conferences, a lot of events. I see a lot of different types of stickers and design and anything like that. So, I thought it might be fun to ask you about that. Like, you know, I don't know if you can share us a link of what your stickers look like. Or how do you make it fun and interesting for you to have that kind of thing to hand out? WES: Once a year, once a year and a half, I make these sticker packs, and they have, I don't know, 15 or so stickers in it, various web development things. And it's a pretty big production because I get a lot of them done. So, the last time I sold 11,000 packages of them, and I sell them for five bucks shipped anywhere in the world. And it's, like, a huge logistical hurdle to try to make that happen because there's so much to it. But it's really fun for me because I'm able to do something that is fun. A lot of people aren't able to go to conferences and get the stickers, and they want that. They want to feel part of a community, and everybody loves getting a pack of stickers. So, I've been doing that for probably seven years now. Just right now, I'm just doing a little bit of research into what the next pack is going to look like and some new materials that have hit the sticker world [laughs], so it's pretty fun. The website is bos.af with, like, bos.af. That might not work anymore. I got note that the people who I registered the dot AF domain name from have lost contact with the Afghanistan domain authorities. So, it's possible I might just lose that domain name, which is a bit of a bummer because that's a really cool domain name, but that's where I sell them once a year. And, usually, they're only for sale for about a week, and then they're done selling, and I do the whole shipping thing around the world. VICTORIA: Wow. I did not think you were going to say, "Sold 11,000" sticker packs. That's really impressive [laughs]. WES: Yeah, it's crazy. It's almost 200,000 stickers if you think about it. VICTORIA: That's, like, a major production. I bet when you got into web development, you didn't think you'd also have a side hustle making stickers off of it [laughs]. WES: Yeah, it's crazy. Like, I was, like, sending them out with stamps, and it's just like, I was holding in one single hand, like, $4,000 worth of stamps. It's crazy to think. VICTORIA: I can imagine going into the post office and being like, "I need $4,000 worth of stamps [laughs]," but that's great. WES: The first time I just started dumping them into mail, I would cross the border because I'm in Canada, and the USPS is much cheaper. So, we would just cross the border, and then we just dumped them into mailboxes. And it was okay. But they were like, "Hey, like, next time, just, like, bring it to the post office, and, like, we have processes for this much mail." I don't mail them out of the U.S. anymore because there's some weird stuff around crossing the border. You have to do all this crazy stuff. But it's pretty crazy buying that many stamps. They usually look at you funny when you go to the store and say, "Hey, I need this many stamps." [laughter] VICTORIA: They're like, "Well, what are you doing?" [laughs] Well, great. I think, let's see, we're coming up at the end of our time here. So, are there any final takeaways for our listeners today? WES: Check me out. I'm at wesbos.com; podcast is at syntax.fm if you want to give it a listen. We post three times a week. And I just encourage everyone keep learning, keep excited about web development because it's a pretty cool industry. VICTORIA: Awesome. Thank you so much for taking time to chat with us today. I really enjoyed our conversation. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on X, formerly known as Twitter, @victori_ousg. WILL: And you could find me on X @will23larry. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions.

We released episode one of this podcast on June 11, 2012. Now, more than a decade later, we're celebrating the 500th episode of our show. In honor of this milestone, Victoria, Will, and Chad caught up with each of the past hosts of the show: Ben Orenstein, Chris Toomey, and Lindsey Christensen. We chatted about what they're up to now, what they liked and learned from hosting the show, their time at thoughtbot, and more! Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: VICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. WILL: And I'm your other host, Will Larry. CHAD: And I'm your other host, Chad Pytel. We released episode one of this podcast on June 11, 2012. Now more than a decade later, were celebrating this: the 500th episode of our show. In honor of this milestone, Victoria, Will, and I caught up with each of the past hosts of the show: Ben Orenstein, Chris Toomey, and Lindsey Christensen. We chatted about what they're up to now, what they liked and learned from hosting the show and their time at thoughtbot, and more. First up: Ben Orenstein. Ben was the very first host of the show back in 2012 when he was a developer at thoughtbot. He is now the co-founder and Head of Product at Tuple, a remote pair programming tool for designers and developers. Ben, it's great to talk to you again. It's been a while since you and I talked. How have you been? BEN: I've been decent, yeah. It's fun to be back to my roots a little bit. I told some folks that I work with that I was coming back to the pod for the 500th Episode, and they were stoked. So, it's kind of a treat to get to be on these airwaves again. CHAD: What have you been up to since you left this show and thoughtbot? BEN: Well, I started a company. So, I was at thoughtbot for a while; I think it was seven years. And I eventually sort of struck out to start my own thing–had a false start or two here and there. And then, I ended up starting a company called Tuple, and we still exist today, fortunately. Tuple is a tool for doing remote pair programming. We started off on macOS and then wrote a Linux client. And we're launching a Windows client now. But it's sort of, like, screen sharing with remote control for developers who are actually writing code and want to have great, low latency remote control and who care about screen share quality and that sort of thing. I started that about five years ago with two co-founders. Today, we are a team of 11, I think it is. And it's been going well. Our timing was really great, it turned out. We launched a little bit before COVID. So, remote work turned into a lot more of a thing, and we were already in the market. So, that helped us a ton. It was quite a wild ride there for a bit. But things have calmed down a little lately, but it's still fun. I'm, like, really enjoying being a co-founder of a software company. It was what I've always sort of wanted to do. And it turns out it actually is pretty fun and pretty great. Although there are, of course, the ups and downs of business ownership. It is never quite as calm or relaxing as being an employee somewhere else. CHAD: You started Tuple instigated by...full disclosure: thoughtbot's an early customer of Tuple. We're still a customer. We use it a lot. BEN: Woo-hoo. I appreciate that. Thank you. CHAD: If I remember right, you started and were sort of instigated to create Tuple because there was a prior product that then Slack bought, and then it started to degrade. And now, it no longer exists in the same way that it did before. BEN: Yeah. So, there was this tool called Screenhero, which I actually started using -- CHAD: [inaudible 02:14] BEN: Yeah, first at thoughtbot. Some other thoughtboter introduced me to it, and we would use it for pair programming. And I was like, oh, this is nice. And then yeah, Slack kind of acqui-hired it and more or less ended up shutting the product down. And so, there was this gap in the market. And I would ask my friends, I would ask thoughtboters and other developers, like, "What are you using now that Screenhero is gone?" And no one had a good answer. And so, after a while of this thing sort of staring me in the face, I was like, we have to try to solve this need. There's clearly a hole in the market. Yeah, so we were heavily inspired by them in the early days. Hopefully, we've charted our own path now. But they were definitely...the initial seed was, you know, let's do Screenhero but try to not get bought early or something. CHAD: [laughs] How did you or did you feel like you captured a lot of the Screenhero customers and reached them in those early days? BEN: I think so. The pitch for it was sort of shockingly easy because Screenhero had kind of blazed this trail. Like, I would often just be like, "Oh, we're making a thing. Do you remember Screenhero?" And they'd go, "Oh yeah, I loved Screenhero". I'd be like, "Yeah, we're going to try to do that." And they'd be like, "Nice. Sign me up." So, it for sure helped a ton. I have no idea what percentage of customers we converted. And they were a pretty large success, so probably a small fraction, but it definitely, like, made the initial days much easier. CHAD: Yeah. And then, like you said, COVID happened. BEN: COVID happened, yeah. I think we had been around for about a year when COVID hit. So, we were getting our feet underneath us. And we were already, like, the company was already growing at a pretty good rate, and we were feeling pretty good about it. I don't think we had quite hit ramen profitable, but we were probably pretty close or, like, flirting with it. Yeah, the business, like, I don't know, tripled or quadrupled in a matter of months. We had a few big customers that, like, just told everyone to start using Tuple. So, we had, like, thousands and thousands of new users kind of immediately. So, it was a crazy time. Everything melted, of course. We hadn't quite engineered for that much scale. We had a really rough day or so as we scrambled, but fortunately, we got things under control. And then had this, like, very nice tailwind. Because we started the company assuming that remote work would grow. We assumed that there would be more remote developers every year. And, you know, it's probably maybe 5% of dev jobs are remote or maybe even less, but we expect to see this number creeping up. We don't think that trend will reverse. And so, COVID just, like, it just yanked it, you know, a decade in the future. CHAD: You haven't tripled or quadrupled your team size, have you? BEN: No. Well, I mean, I guess, I mean, we started as 3, and now we're 11, so kind of. CHAD: [laughs] Yeah, that's true. BEN: Expenses have not grown as fast as revenue, fortunately. CHAD: That's good. That's basically what I was asking [laughs]. BEN: Yeah, yeah. We're still a pretty small team, actually. We have only, like, four or five full-time engineers on the team at the moment, which is kind of wild because we are now, you know, we have three platforms to support: Linux, Windows, and Mac. It's a pretty complicated app doing, like, real-time streaming of audio, webcams, desktops, caring about OS-level intricacies. So, I think we will be hiring more people soon, although we haven't said that for a long time. We sort of have always had a bit of a hire-slow mentality to try to get the right team members and, like, feel a real pain before we hire someone into it. But we have been getting a bit more aggressive with hiring lately. VICTORIA: Well, I really appreciate Tuple. I installed it when I first started working here at thoughtbot. And we have random pairings with everyone across the company. So, I'll randomly get to meet someone halfway across the world who's working on similar projects. And I think they really enjoy that I have a tool they like working to share what they're working on. So, I want to thank you for that. And I'm curious about when you really started to scale during COVID, what were some of the technology architecture trade-offs you came across, and where did you land with it? BEN: Well, we got fairly...I don't know if it was lucky, but we...for a long time, for years, even through COVID, maybe the first four years of the company, all Tuple calls were purely peer-to-peer. And there was no server that we owned intermediating things. This was, like, kind of one of the keys of, like, not having expenses. The scale of revenue was we could have lots more calls happen. And it wouldn't cost us bandwidth or server capacity. To this day, still, for any calls with three or fewer participants, they're purely peer-to-peer. And this is nice for latency purposes because it just...we can find the most direct path to the internet between two people. It's also nice from our cost perspective because we don't need to pay to send that data. And that was hugely useful as call volume went up immensely. Didn't have to worry too much about server load and didn't have to worry too much about bandwidth costs. CHAD: Today, is there a central service that makes the initial connection for people? BEN: Yes, yeah, yeah. So, there is a signaling server. So, when you launch the app, you sign in, and you see, like, oh, which of my co-workers are online? So, there is actually a Rails app that handles that, actually, increasingly less the Rails app. We have now...I think it's a Go service that actually manages all those. I'm further and further from the code every year. Some of the technical questions might be a little bit beyond me, or I might have slightly out-of-date info. But back to the architecture question for a second, we did a pretty big refactor when we decided to go from just being a Mac client to supporting other platforms, where we split out a cross-platform real-time communication engine written in C++ so that we could use that for all of the heavy lifting, all the managing of the connections, and the tricky bandwidth estimation, and all this stuff, and use that across different platforms. And so, today, you have the cross-platform engine, and then on top of that is a, like, a less specific layer for each of the operating systems that we support. CHAD: So, you mentioned you're less and less in the code these days. So, what do you spend your time doing then? BEN: It's a mix of things. These days, it's basically mostly -- CHAD: Just cocktails on the beach, right? BEN: Cocktails, yes [laughs], cocktails on the beach, appearing on podcasts trying to sound important and impressive, yeah. Mostly product work. So, right before this, I just got off a call with some folks from The Browser Company. They are some of our first alpha users for our new Windows clients. So, I hopped on the call with them and, like, watched three of them install the product and inevitably run into some bugs. And, you know, chatted through those with the engineer that was working on it, prioritized some stuff, made some decisions about what's coming up next, and what we're going to ignore. So, mostly product work these days. For the first five years of the company, I was CEO, so I was doing kind of everything: marketing, and also hiring, and also product. About two months ago, I stepped down as CEO, and one of my other co-founders, Spencer, stepped up. And so, now my focus has narrowed to be mostly just product stuff and much less on the marketing or hiring side. VICTORIA: Yeah, you mentioned that it was a little more comfortable to be an employee than to be a founder. I don't know if you could say more about that because, certainly, a lot of engineers are smart enough and capable enough to run their own company. But what really informed your choice there, and do you regret it? [laughs] BEN: I definitely don't regret it. thoughtbot was a close second in terms of wonderful professional experiences. But running my own thing has been the most interesting professional thing I've done by a big margin. It has also been more stressful. And, Chad, I don't know if you remember, I think, like, maybe eight years ago, you tweeted something like, if you want to sleep well at night, and, like, value that, like, peace of mind, like, don't start a company or something. I have experienced that. CHAD: [laughs] BEN: A lot more, yeah, like waking up in the middle of the night worrying about things. It feels a little bit like the highs are higher; the lows are lower. Being an employee somewhere, it's like, if this company fails, I know I can go get another job, right? Like, you're a developer. You're extremely employable. But as the owner of the company, if the company fails, like, a huge chunk of your net worth is gone. Like, this thing you poured your life into is gone. It's way more stressful and traumatic to have that happen, or have that threatened to be happening, or just imagine that happening. So, overall, I have found the trade-off to be totally worth it. It's awesome to make your own decisions and chart your own path. And when it works, it can work in a way that being a salaried employee can't. So, I'm happy with those trade-offs. But I think that is a good question for people to ask themselves as they consider doing something like this is, like: is that the kind of trade-off that you want to make? Because it has significant downsides for sure. WILL: I am a big fan of Tuple also. I love it. It [inaudible 10:08] easy, especially with remote work. You hit the jackpot with COVID and remote work, so kudos for that [laughs]. Was there anything...because I know from our previous companies, about over...hopefully a lot more of the good stuff than the bad stuff. But was there anything that you learned? Because you were at thoughtbot for seven years. Was there anything that you're like, oh my gosh, I learned that, and it's helped me till this day while I'm running my company? BEN: Yeah, quite a bit, actually. I think it'd be hard to tease apart exactly which lessons, but I do...so I ran Upcase for thoughtbot and also FormKeep. So, I got a chance to kind of run a small division of the company, while still being a normal employee and, like, having not much of that risk. And I think that was a really wonderful opportunity for me to, like, practice the skills that I was interested in. Just, like, how do you market a thing? How do you design a product and have it be good? How do you prioritize user feedback? There were a ton of lessons from those days that I feel like made me better at running our company when we actually took a shot at it. So, there were, like, the specific things that I learned by the work I was doing there. But then just, like, I mean, I think I am the programmer I am today because of, like, the weekly dev discussions that happened. Like, spending so much time with Joe Ferris and, like, trying to copy as much of his brain as possible, like, really, like, imprinted on me as, like, a programmer. And also, just, like, a lot of the sort of cultural things from my time at thoughtbot of, like, you should be sharing the things you're learning. Like, writing blog posts is a great use of time. Like, doing open-source work is a great use of time. And maybe you can't directly trace how doing, like, working in public or sharing information benefits the company. It's hard to, like, attribute it from a marketing sense. But if you sort of have faith that in the large, it's going to work out, it probably will. That feels like a thoughtbot lesson to me, and I think it has served us really well; where I recorded a weekly podcast for a long time called The Art of Product. I'm recording a new podcast called Hackers Incorporated with Adam Wathan of Tailwind fame. And I don't ever think, like, hmm, how many new leads do we think we get per episode, and how many hours has that taken? What's the ROI? I just have this sort of reflex that I developed from thoughtbot time of, like, you should be putting stuff out there, or you should be giving back. You should help other people. And that will probably help your business and make it work in the long term. CHAD: That's a good lesson [laughs]. One of the other things, you know, while you were a host of Giant Robots, you were the first host. I remember, you know, encouraging you to be the first host, and I think we talked about that in one of the episodes along the way. But we also transitioned the format a little bit, especially as you started to work on products here; you know, it was more about the building of those products and following along with those. And one of the things that sort of half-jokingly defined, I think, your impact on a lot of products was pricing, experimenting with pricing, learning about pricing, increasing prices more than people were maybe comfortable doing so. How has that worked out with Tuple, pricing in particular? BEN: It's really hard to say. It's hard to know what, like, the other path would have been through the world-. We sort of decided from, like, the early days that we wanted to have, like, a fairly premium price. Like, we wanted to be the product that was really good and was, like, a little bit annoyingly expensive, but you still paid for it because it felt worth it. And I think people could debate in both directions whether we nailed that or not. We have had a price increase that we ended up rolling back. We went, like, a little too far one time and said, "You know what? I think we're a little bit over," and we reverted that. But I would say even today, we are still a fairly pricey product. I mean, I'm pretty happy with how the company has done. I can't prove to you that, like, if the price were half what it is, we would have, you know, better success or not. CHAD: I think it'd be very hard to make the argument that if it was half that, you would have double the number of customers. BEN: Yeah, that's probably not true. CHAD: Not with the customers that you have, who are companies that will pay for products that they use as much as Tuple. BEN: Yeah, I'm happy serving the kind of companies, and they end up being mostly tech companies that really value developer happiness. When their developers come to them and they say, "We don't want to pair over Zoom. We like this thing. It's better. It feels nicer to use," they say, "Okay," and they buy the tool for them. There are places where that's not the case. And they say, "We already have a thing that does screen sharing. You're not allowed to buy this." We don't invest a lot of time trying to sell to those people or convince them that they're wrong. And I'm pretty happy serving sort of the first group. CHAD: So, you've mentioned that you've still been podcasting. To be honest, I didn't realize you were starting something new. Is it live now? BEN: It is live now, yeah. CHAD: Awesome. Where can people find that? BEN: hackersincorporated.com. It's about the transition from developer to founder, which is kind of what we've been touching on here. Yeah, hopefully, the audience is developers who want to start something or have started something who are maybe a little bit further behind progression-wise. And it's kind of, like, I have some lessons, and Adam has some lessons, and, you know, we don't think that we're experts. But sometimes it's useful to just hear, like, two people's story and sort of see, like, what seemingly has worked for them. So, we've been trying to share things there. And I think people will find it useful. VICTORIA: I was going to ask you for a lesson, maybe give us a little sample about how would you advise someone who's built a product and wants to market it, and it's targeted towards developers since you mentioned that previously as well. BEN: Yeah, in a way, the question already contains a problem. It's like, oh, I built the product; now how do I market it? It's a little bit indicative of a very common failure mode for developers, which is that. They sort of assume, okay, after you make the product, you then figure out how you're going to market it. And marketing is sort of a thing you layer on later on when you realize that just, like, throwing it on Twitter or Product Hunt didn't really work. When we started building Tuple, I was out there marketing it already. So, I had two co-founders, so this is a luxury I had. My two co-founders were writing code, and I was out doing stuff. I was recording podcasts. I was tweeting about things. I was making videos. I was giving conference talks. And I was getting people to hear about our product well before it was done. In fact, I was even selling it. I was taking pre-orders for annual subscriptions to the app while it was still vaporware. So, I would say, like, you basically can't start marketing too early. If you start marketing early and no one really cares, well, then you don't really have to build it probably. I would actually even go a little further and say, like, I started marketing Tuple before we had a product available. But in reality, I started marketing Tuple seven or so years before that when I started publishing things through thoughtbot. It's like when I was traveling around giving talks about Ruby, and when I was making screencasts about Vim, and when I was running Upcase, I was, over time, building an audience. And that audience was useful for thoughtbot, and it also was useful for me so that when I left, I had something like 10,000 Twitter followers or something, a few thousand people on our mailing list. But there were a lot of developers that already sort of knew me and trusted me to make fairly good things. And so, when I said, "Hey, I've made a new thing, and it's for you," I really benefited from those years of making useful content and trying to be useful on the internet. And in the early days, we had people sign up, and they would say, "I don't even really think I'm going to use this. But I've learned so much from you over the years that I want to support you, so I'm going to pay for a subscription." VICTORIA: I like your answer because I think the same thing when people ask me, like, because I am an organizer for Women Who Code, and I know all these great people from showing up for years in person months over months. And so, then people will ask, "Oh, how do I recruit more women in my company?" I'm like, "Well, you got to start showing up [laughs] now and do that for a couple of years, and then maybe people will trust you," right? So, I really like that answer. WILL: How has your relationship with Chad continued to grow since you left? Because seven years at the company is a lot. And it seems like you're still on really, really good terms, and you're still friends. And I know that doesn't happen at every company. BEN: I mean, it was tough deciding to leave. I think, like, both of us felt pretty sad about it. That was the longest I'd ever worked anywhere, and I really enjoyed the experience. So, I think it was tough on both sides, honestly. But we haven't kept in that much touch since then. I think we've emailed a handful of times here and there. We're both sociable people, and we sort of get each other. And there's a long history there. So, I think it's just easy for us to kind of drop back into a friendly vibe is sort of how I feel about it. CHAD: Yeah. And the way I explain it to people, you know, when you're leading a company, which Ben and I both are, you put a lot of energy into that and to the people who are on that team. If you're doing things right, there's not really hard feelings when someone leaves. But you need to put in a lot of effort to keep in touch with people outside of the company and a lot of energy. And, to be honest, I don't necessarily do as good a job with that as I would like because it's a little bit higher priority to maintain relationships with them, the people who are still at thoughtbot and who are joining. BEN: What you're saying is I'm dead to you [laughter]. That's CEO, for you're dead to me. CHAD: No. It's just...no hard feelings. BEN: Totally. CHAD: I think one of the things that has been great about the show over the years is that we haven't been afraid to change the format, which I think has been important to keeping it going. So, there is sort of; in fact, the website now is organized into seasons. And I went back and re-categorized all the episodes into seasons. And when the seasons were made up of, like, sort of the format of the show or particular hosts...when we started, it was just an interview show, and it was largely technical topics. And then we started The Bike Shed, and the technical topics sort of moved over there. But it also went with your interests more under the product and business side. Then you started working on products at thoughtbot, so it started to go even more in that. And I think Chris joined you on the show, and that was sort of all about those topics. BEN: Yeah, that makes sense. I think if you don't let the hosts kind of follow their interests, they're going to probably burn out on the thing. It's not fun to force yourself, I think, to record a podcast. CHAD: Yeah. And then when you left, you know, I took over hosting and hosted by myself for a while, went back to the interview format, but then was joined by Lindsey for a little while. We experimented with a few different things: one, interviews, but then we did a whole, just under a year, where we followed along with three companies. And each month, we would have an interview episode where we talked to them, all three companies, about the same topic. And then, we also did an episode with just Lindsey and I talking about that topic and about what we learned from the startup companies that we were following along with for the year. And now we're back to interview freeform, different guests, different topics. It seems like we're going to stick with that for a little while. But, obviously, as Will and Victoria have said, like, we'll probably change it again in some way, you know, a year, two years, three years from now. VICTORIA: Yeah, and I'm definitely bringing my interest around DevOps and platform engineering, so you'll see more guests who have that focus in their background. And with that, sometimes my interview style is more; how do I ask a question that I can't read from your developer docs and that I might not understand the answer to? [laughs] That's kind of where I like to go with it. So yeah, I'm really excited about...it's probably one of my favorite parts of my job here at thoughtbot because I get to meet so many interesting people. And, hopefully, that's interesting to everyone else [laughs] and our guests, yeah. BEN: Totally. Well, I dramatically underestimated how awesome it would be to meet all kinds of cool people in the industry when I started the podcast. I didn't truly connect in my head, like, wait a second, if I have a 45-minute conversation with, like, a lot of prominent, awesome people in our field, that's going to be really interesting and useful for me. So, I think, yeah, it's nice to be in the hosting seat. VICTORIA: And it's so surprising how I'll meet someone at a conference, and I'll invite them onto the podcast. And the way it winds up is that whatever we're talking about on the show is directly relevant to what I'm working on or a problem that I have. It's been incredible. And I really appreciate you for coming back for our 500th Episode here. CHAD: Ben, thanks very much again for joining us, and congratulations on all the success with Tuple. And I wish you the best. BEN: Thank you so much. Thanks for being a continuing customer. I really appreciate it. CHAD: Next, we caught up with Chris Toomey, who had a run as co-host of the show with Ben throughout 2016. CHRIS: Hi there. Thanks for having me. So, we're talking with all of the past hosts. I know you joined the show, and you were on it with Ben. And then you moved over to The Bike Shed, right? CHRIS: Yeah. So, I had co-hosted with Ben for about six months. And then I think I was transitioning off of Upcase, and so that ended sort of the Giant Robots “let's talk about business” podcast tour for me. And then, I went back to consulting for a while. And, at some point, after Derek Prior had left, I took over as the host of The Bike Shed. So, I think there was probably, like, a year and a half, two-year gap in between the various hostings. CHAD: Are you doing any podcasting now? CHRIS: I'm not, and I miss it. It was a lot of fun. It was, I think, an ideal medium for me. I'm not as good at writing. I tend to over-edit and overthink. But when you get me on a podcast, I just start to say what's in my head, and I tend to not hate it after the fact. So [chuckles], that combination I found to be somewhat perfect for me. But yeah, lacking that in my current day-to-day. CHAD: Well, what's been taking up your time since you left? CHRIS: I had decided it was time to sort of go exploring, try and maybe join a startup, that sort of thing. I was sort of called in that direction. So, just after I left thoughtbot, I did a little bit of freelancing, but that was mostly to sort of keep the lights on and start to connect with folks and see if there might be an opportunity out there. I was able to connect with a former thoughtbot client, Sam Zimmerman, who was looking to start something as well. And so, we put our act together and formed a company called Sagewell, which was trying to build a digital financial platform for seniors, which is a whole bunch of different complicated things to try and string together. So, that was a wonderful experience. I was CTO of that organization. And I think that ran for about two and a half years. Unfortunately, Sagewell couldn't quite find the right sort of sticking point and, unfortunately, shut down a little bit earlier in this year. But that was, I would say, the lion's share of what I have done since leaving thoughtbot, really wonderful experience, got to learn a ton about all of the different aspects of building a startup. And I think somewhat pointedly learned that, like, it's messy, but I think I do like this startup world. So, since leaving Sagewell, I've now joined a company called August Health, which has a couple of ex-thoughtboters there as well. And August is post their Series A. They're a little bit further along in their journey. So, it was sort of a nice continuation of the startup experience, getting to see a company a little bit further on but still with lots of the good type of problems, lots of code to write, lots of product to build. So, excited to be joining them. And yeah, that's mostly what's taking up my time these days. CHAD: So, I know at Sagewell, you made a lot of technical architecture, team decisions. It was Rails in the backend, Svelte in the frontend, if I'm not mistaken. CHRIS: Yep, that's correct. CHAD: You know, hindsight is always 2020. Is there anything you learned along the way, or given how things ended up, that you would do differently? CHRIS: Sure. I was really happy with the tech stack that we were able to put together. Svelte was probably the most out there of the choices, I would say, but even that, it was sort of relegated to the frontend. And so, it was a little bit novel for folks coming into the codebase. Most folks had worked in React before but didn't know Svelte. They were able to pick it up pretty quickly. But Inertia.js was actually the core sort of architecture of the app, sort of connected the frontend and the backend, and really allowed us to move incredibly quickly. And I was very, very happy with that decision. We even ended up building our mobile applications, both for iOS and Android. So, we had native apps in both of the stores, but the apps were basically wrappers around the Rails application with a technology similar to Turbolinks native–if folks are familiar with that so, sort of a WebView layer but with some native interactions where you want. And so, like, we introduced a native login screen on both platforms so that we could do biometric login and that sort of thing. But at the end of the day, most of the screens in the app didn't need to be differentiated between a truly native mobile app and what like, mobile WebView would look like. So, we leaned into that. And it was incredible just how much we were able to do with that stack and how quickly we were able to move, and also how confidently we were able to move, which was really a nice thing. Having the deep integration between the backend and the frontend really allowed a very small team to get a lot done in a short time. CHAD: Does that code live on in any capacity? CHRIS: No. CHAD: Oh. How does that make you feel? [chuckles] CHRIS: It makes me feel very sad, I will say. That said, I mean, at the end of the day, code is in service of a business. And so, like, the code...there are, I think, probably a couple of things that we might be able to extract and share. There were some interesting...we did some weird stuff with the serializers and some, like, TypeScript type generation on the frontend that was somewhat novel. But at the end of the day, you know, code is in service of a business, and, unfortunately, the business is not continuing on. So, the code in the abstract is...it's more, you know, the journey that we had along the way and the friends we made and whatnot. But I think, for me, sort of the learnings of I really appreciate this architecture and will absolutely bring it to any new projects that I'm building from, you know, greenfield moving forward. VICTORIA: I'm curious what it was like to go from being a consultant to being a big player in a startup and being responsible for the business and the technology. How did that feel for you? CHRIS: I would say somewhat natural. I think the consulting experience really lent well to trying to think about not just the technical ramifications but, you know, what's the business impact? How do we structure a backlog and communicate about what features we want to build in what order? How do we, you know, scope a minimal MVP? All those sorts of things were, I think, really useful in allowing me to sort of help shape the direction of the company and be as productive of an engineering team as we could be. CHAD: A lot of the projects you worked on at thoughtbot were if not for startups, helping to launch new products. And then, a lot of the work you did at thoughtbot, too, was on Upcase, which was very much building a business. CHRIS: Yes. I definitely find myself drawn in that direction, and part of like, as I mentioned, I seem to be inclined towards this startup world. And I think it's that, like, the intersection between tech and business is sort of my sweet spot. I work with a lot of developers who are really interested in getting sort of deeper into the technical layers, or Docker and Kubernetes and orchestration. And I always find myself a little bit resistant to those. I'm like, I mean, whatever. Let's just...let's get something out there so that we can get users on it. And I am so drawn to that side, you know, you need both types of developers critically. I definitely find myself drawn to that business side a little bit more than many of the folks that I work with, and helping to bridge that gap and communicate about requirements and all those sort of things. So, definitely, the experience as a consultant really informed that and helped me have sort of a vocabulary and a comfort in those sort of conversations. WILL: How did Upcase come about? Because I know I've talked to numerous people who have gone through Upcase. I actually went through it, and I learned a ton. So, how did that come about? CHRIS: I think that was a dream in Ben Orenstein's eye. It started as thoughtbot Learn many, many years ago. There was a handful of workshops that had been recorded. And so, there were the video recordings of those workshops that thoughtbot used to provide in person. Ben collected those together and made them sort of an offering on the internet. I think Chad, you, and I were on some podcast episode where you sort of talked about the pricing models over time and how that went from, like, a high dollar one-time download to, like, $99 a month to $29 a month, and now Upcase is free. And so, it sort of went on this long journey. But it was an interesting exploration of building a content business of sort of really leaning into the thoughtbot ideal of sharing as much information as possible, and took a couple of different shapes over time. There was the weekly iterations of the video series that would come out each week, as well as the, like, longer format trails, and eventually some exercises and whatnot, but very much an organic sort of evolving thing that started as just a handful of videos and then became much more of a complete platform. I think I hit the high points there. But, Chad, does that all sound accurate to you? CHAD: Yeah, I led the transition from our workshops to Learn, which brought everything together. And then, I stepped away as product manager, and Ben took it the next step to Upcase and really productized it into a SaaS sort of monthly recurring billing model and took it over from there. But it still exists, and a lot of the stuff there is still really good [laughs]. CHRIS: Yeah, I remain deeply proud of lots of the videos on that platform. And I'm very glad that they are still out there, and I can point folks at them. VICTORIA: I love that idea that you said about trying to get as much content out there as possible or, like, really overcommunicate. I'm curious if that's also stayed with you as you've moved on to startups, about just trying to get that influence over, like, what you're doing and how you're promoting your work continues. CHRIS: I will say one of the experiences that really sticks with me is I had followed thoughtbot for a while before I actually joined. So, I was reading the blog, and I was listening to the podcasts and was really informing a lot of how I thought about building software. And I was so excited when I joined thoughtbot to, like, finally see behind the curtain and see, like, okay, so, what are the insider secrets? And I was equal parts let down...actually, not equal parts. I was a little bit let down but then also sort of invigorated to see, like, no, no, it's all out there. It's like, the blog and the open-source repos and those sort of...that really is the documentation of how thoughtbot thinks about and builds software. So, that was really foundational for me. But at the same time, I also saw sort of the complexity of it and how much effort goes into it, you know, investment time Fridays, and those sort of things. Like, a thoughtbot blog post is not a trivial thing to put up into the world. So many different people were collaborating and working on it. And so, I've simultaneously loved the sharing, and where sharing makes sense, I've tried to do that. But I also recognize the deep cost. And I think for thoughtbot, it's always made sense because it's been such a great mechanism for getting the thoughtbot name out there and for getting clients and for hiring developers. At startups, it becomes a really interesting trade-off of, should we be allocating time to building up sort of a brand in the name and getting ourselves, you know, getting information out there? Versus, should we be just focusing on the work at hand? And most organizations that I've worked with have bias towards certainly less sharing than thoughtbot, but just not much at all. Often, I'll see folks like, "Hey, maybe we should start a blog." And I'm like, "Okay, let's just talk about how much effort that [laughs] actually looks like." And I wonder if I'm actually overcorrected on that, having seen, you know, the high bar that thoughtbot set. CHAD: I think it's a struggle. This is one of my [laughs] hot topics or spiels that I can go on. You know, in most other companies, that kind of thing only helps...it only helps in hiring or the people being fulfilled in the work. But at most companies, your product is not about that; that's not what your business is. So, having a more fulfilled engineering team who is easier to hire—don't get me wrong, there are advantages to that—but it doesn't also help with your sales. CHRIS: Yes. CHAD: And at thoughtbot, our business is totally aligned with the people and what we do as designers and developers. And so, when we improve one, we improve the other, and that's why we can make it work. That is marketing for the product that we actually sell, and that's not the case at a SaaS software company. CHRIS: Yes, yeah, definitely. That resonates strongly. I will say, though, on the hiring side, hiring at thoughtbot was always...there was...I won't say a cheat code, but just if someone were to come into the hiring process and they're like, "Oh yeah, I've read the blog. I listen to the podcast," this and that, immediately, you were able to skip so much further into the conversation and be like, "Okay, what do you agree with? What do you disagree with? Like, let's talk." But there's so much. Because thoughtbot put so much out there, it was easy to say, like, "Hey, this is who we are. Do you like that? Is that your vibe?" Whereas most engineering organizations don't have that. And so, you have to try and, like, build that in the context of, you know, a couple of hour conversations in an interview, and it's just so much harder to do. So, again, I've leaned in the direction of not going anywhere near thoughtbot's level of sharing. But the downside when you are hiring, you're like, oh, this is going to be trickier. CHAD: Yeah. One of the moments that stands out in my mind, and maybe I've told this story before on the podcast, but I'll tell it again. When we opened the New York studio, it was really fast growing and was doing a lot of hiring. And one of the people who had just joined the company a couple of weeks before was doing an interview and rejected the person was able to write an articulate reason why. But it all boiled down to this person is, you know, not a fit for thoughtbot. Based on what they were able to describe, I felt very confident with the ability or with the fact that they were able to make that call, even though they had been here only a couple of weeks, because they joined knowing who we were, and what we stand for, and what our culture and our values are, and the way that we do things, and all that kind of thing. And so, yeah, that's definitely a huge benefit to us. VICTORIA: I've certainly enjoyed that as well, as someone who hires developers here and also in meeting new companies and organizations when they already know thoughtbot. That's really nice to have that reputation there, coming from my background—some really more scrappier startup kind of consulting agencies. But, you know, I wanted to talk a little bit more about your podcasting experience while you're here. So, I know you were on both The Bike Shed and Giant Robots. Which is the better podcast? [laughter] So, what's your...do you have, like, a favorite episode or favorite moment, or maybe, like, a little anecdote you can share from hosting? CHRIS: Well, I guess there's, like, three different eras for me in the podcasting. So, there's Giant Robots with Ben talking more about business stuff, and I think that was really useful. I think it was more of a forcing function on me because I sort of...Both Ben and I were coming on; we were giving honest, transparent summaries of our, like, MRR and stats and how things were growing, and acted as sort of an accountability backstop, which was super useful but also just kind of nerve-wracking. Then, when I joined the Bike Shed, the interviewing sequence that I did each week was just a new person that I was chatting with. And I sort of had to ramp them up on, hey, here's a quick summary on how to think about podcasting. Don't worry, it'll be great. Everybody have fun. But I was finding each of the guests. I was sort of finding a topic to talk about with them. So, that ended up being a lot more work. And then, the last three years chatting with Steph that was by far my favorite. There was just such a natural back-and-forth. It really was just capturing the conversations of two developers at thoughtbot and the questions we would ask each other as we hit something complicated in a piece of code or, "Oh, I saw this, you know, article about a new open-source repository. What do you think about that?" It was so much easier, so much more natural, and, frankly, a lot of fun to do that. And, two, I actually do have an answer to the favorite podcast episode, which is the first episode that Steph was ever on. It was before she actually joined as a co-host. But it was called “What I Believe About Software.” And it was just this really great, deep conversation about how we think about software. And a lot of it is very much, like, thoughtbot ideals, I would say. But yeah, Steph came in and just brought the heat in that first episode, and I remember just how enjoyable that experience was. And I was like, all right, let's see if I can get her to hang out a little bit more, and, thankfully, she was happy to join. WILL: What was your favorite position, I guess you can call it? Because you say you like the mixture of business and, you know, development. So, you've been in leadership as development director, CTO. You've been a web developer. You've been over content, like, with Upcase. What was your favorite position [inaudible 16:43] you were doing, and why was it your favorite? CHRIS: The development director role feels like sort of a cheating answer, but I think that would be my answer because it contained a handful of things within it. Like, as development director, I was still working on client projects three days a week. And then, one day a week was sort of allocated to the manager-type tasks, or having one-on-ones with my team sort of helping to think about strategy and whatnot. And then, ideally, still getting some amount of investment time, although the relative amounts of those always flexed a little bit. Because that one sort of encompassed different facets, I think that's going to be my answer. And I think, like, some of what drew me to consulting in the first place and kept me in that line of work for seven years was the variety, you know, different clients, as well as, even within thoughtbot, different modes of working in podcasts or video. Or there was a bootcamp that I taught, a session of Metis, which that was a whole other experience. And so, getting that variety was really interesting. And I think as sort of a tricky answer to your question, the development director role as a singular thing contained a multitude, and so I think that was the one that would stand out to me. It's also the most, you know, the one that I ended on, so [laughs] it might just be recency bias, but yeah. VICTORIA: Oh, I love that. Is there anything else that you would like to promote on the podcast today? CHRIS: No, although as you ask the question, I feel like I should, I don't know, make some things to promote, get back into some, I don't know, content generation or something like that. But for now, no. I'm, you know, diving into the startup life, and it's a wonderful and engrossing way to do work, but it does definitely take up a lot of my headspace. So, it's an interesting trade-off. But right now, I don't know; if folks are online and they want to say hi, most of my contact information is readily available. So, I would love to say hi to folks, anyone that listened in the past or, you know, has any thoughts in the now. Would love to connect with folks. But otherwise, yeah, thank you so much for having me on. CHAD: In 2017, I took over from Ben as solo host of the show but was joined by Lindsey Christainson as cohost in 2019. After some time away from thoughtbot, Lindsey is back with us and we sat down to catch up with her. VICTORIA: Why don't you tell me about your current role with thoughtbot? LINDSEY: I am currently supporting marketing and business development at thoughtbot, as well as working as a marketing consultant for thoughtbot clients. VICTORIA: Great. And I understand that you had worked with thoughtbot many years ago, and that's when you also came on as a co-host of Giant Robots. Is that right? LINDSEY: Yeah, a couple of years ago. I left thoughtbot in spring of 2021. And I forget how long my stint was as a co-host of Giant Robots, but over a year, maybe a year and a half, two years? CHAD: Yeah, I think that's right. I think you started in 2019. LINDSEY: Yeah. Yeah, that sounds right. And Chad and I were co-hosts, I think, similar to the setup today in which sometimes we hosted together, and sometimes we were conducting interviews separately. CHAD: And then we sort of introduced a second season, where we followed along with a batch of companies over the course of the entire season. And that was fun, and we learned a lot. And it was nice to have consistent guests. LINDSEY: Yeah, that was a lot of fun. I really liked that format. I don't know; they almost were, like, more than guests at that point. They were just like other co-hosts [laughs] that we could rely on week in, week out to check in with them as they're working on early-stage companies. So, every time we checked in with them, they usually had some new, exciting developments. WILL: I really like that idea. How did y'all come up with that? CHAD: I'm not sure. I think a few years before I had taken over hosting of the show, and I forget...my memory maybe is that I went to Lindsey and said, "You know, let's do something different." But I'm not sure. Does that match your memory, Lindsey? LINDSEY: Yeah, I think there were two main drivers; one was I think you were feeling like you were having similar conversations in the interviews every time. Like, you couldn't get to a certain depth because every time you were interviewing someone, you were doing, like, the, "Well, tell me your founding story." And, you know, how did you raise funding? It kind of got a little bit repetitive. And then, on the side, the few we had done together, I think we both really enjoyed. So, we were thinking, like, what's the format in which the two of us could co-host together more regularly? Because I'm a pleasure to talk to [laughter]. I think you were like, I need to talk to Lindsey more. [inaudible 3:13] VICTORIA: What is your hosting style? How would you describe your approach to hosting a podcast? LINDSEY: I mean, obviously, it's a podcast about products and business. I think as a marketer, I am, you know, drawn a lot to the marketing side, so tending to ask questions around go-to-market audience, users. That's always just, like, a particular interest of mine. But then also, like, the feelings. I love asking about the feelings of things, you know, how did it feel when you started? How did it feel when you made this tough decision? So, that's another thing I think I noticed in my interviews is asking about some of the emotions behind business decisions. VICTORIA: And I like hearing about how people felt at the time and then how they felt afterwards [laughs]. And, like, how people around them supported each other and that type of thing. That's really fun. I'm curious, too, from your marketing background and having to do with podcasts like; some founders, I think, get the advice to just start a podcast to start building a community. But I'm curious on your thoughts about, like, how does podcasting really play into, like, business and marketing development for products? LINDSEY: Oh yeah. It's become definitely, like, a standard channel in B2B these days. I feel like that it's pretty typical for a company to have a podcast as one way that they engage their audience and their users. In marketing, you're really vying for people's attention, and people's attention span is getting shorter and shorter. So, like, if you have an ad or a blog, you're getting, like, seconds, maybe minutes of someone's attention. And whereas something like a podcast offers a unique channel to have someone's undivided attention for, you know, 30 minutes, an hour, and if you're lucky, you know, checking back in week over week. So, it became a really popular method. That said, I think you're probably also seeing the market get saturated [laughs] with podcasts now, so some diminishing returns. And, you know, as always, kind of looking for, you know, what's the next way? What's the next thing that people are interested in in ways to capture their attention? CHAD: What is the next thing? LINDSEY: I don't know, back to micro-content? TikTok videos -- CHAD: Yeah, I was going to say TikTok, yeah. LINDSEY: Yeah, you know, 10-30 seconds, what can you communicate? VICTORIA: I see people live streaming on Twitch a lot for coding and developer products. LINDSEY: Yeah, I think we've seen some of that, too. We've been experimenting more at thoughtbot with live streaming as well. It's another interesting mechanism. But yeah, I don't know, it's interesting. It's another form of, like, community and how people engage with their communities. So, it's always evolving. It's always evolving, and sometimes it's not. Sometimes, people just do want to get in a room together, too, which is always interesting. WILL: What has been, in your experience, the good the bad? Like, how do you feel about the way that it has shifted? Because I think you started in, like, 2000, like, kind of earlier 2000, 2005, something around there. And it was totally different than now like you're saying. Because I feel like, you know, Channel 5 30-second ad, you know, with some of the marketing depending on what you're doing, to now to where you're, like, you're paying influencers to advertise your product, or you're doing an ad. Or it's more social media-driven and tech-driven. What has been your opinion and feelings on the way that it has grown and evolved? LINDSEY: Marketing, in general, yeah, I graduated college in 2005 and started my marketing career. And yeah, you could, like, actually get people to click on banner ads back then, which was pretty [inaudible 07:14] [laughs]. WILL: I forgot about banner ads [laughs]. LINDSEY: I don't know, yeah. I don't know. In order for myself to not just get too frustrated, I think I've got to, like, view it as a game kind of. What new things are we going to try? You know, what do we see work? But it can really depend. And I've always been in B2B side of things. And consumer, I'm sure, has its own kind of evolution around how people engage and how they consume content and byproducts. But in B2B, you know, it can really depend on industry too. You know, I'm working with a client right now in the senior living space, and they're really big in in-person conferences. So, that's how people consume, get a lot of their information and, make connections, and learn about new products. So, it's been interesting to work in an industry that what might be considered, like, a little bit more old-school channels are still effective. And then just thinking about how you weave in the new channels with the existing ones without ignoring them. They might get information in conferences, but they're still a modern human who will then, you know, search online to learn more, for example. VICTORIA: It reminds me of a phrase I like to say, which is that, like, technology never dies; you just have more of it. There's just more different options and more different ways to do things. And some people are always, you know, sometimes you have to be flexible and do everything. CHAD: So, tell us more about what you did in between...after you left thoughtbot, what did you do? LINDSEY: I was heading up B2B marketing for a company called Flywire, which is headquartered in Boston but is a global company now. And they were just kind of starting their B2B business unit, which, as I mentioned, B2B is my personal specialty. I had been connected to their CMO through the Boston startup community. And yeah, I was helping them kind of launch their go-to-market for B2B. The industries they were in before...they got their start in higher education and then expanded in healthcare and found a niche in luxury travel, and then we were figuring out the B2B piece. But yeah, I was there for about a year and a half. They actually went public the second week I was there, which was an interesting [laughs] experience. I knew they were, like, on that journey, but it was kind of funny to be there the second week, and people were, like, "Congrats." And I was like, "Well, I definitely didn't have anything to do with it because I just finished my onboarding, but thank you," [laughs]. CHAD: One of the things that really impressed me when you joined thoughtbot was the way in which you learned about who we were and really internalized that in a way where you were then able to pretty meaningfully understand our market, our positioning in the market, and come up with new strategies for us. I assume that's something you're good at in general [laughs]. How do you approach it? How did you approach it when you joined Flywire, for example? And how was it the same or different than how you approached thoughtbot? LINDSEY: Ooh, yeah, that's a good question. And I appreciate that comment because it's difficult. But I think, yeah, with any new organization that I'm joining, you know, I think starting out with your kind of mini-listening tour of your key stakeholders across, you know, the different departmental focuses to get a sense of, what are the challenges? What are the opportunities? It's actually like, you know, it's the SWOT analysis, kind of trying to fill in your own mind map of a SWOT analysis of where the company is. What are the major hurdles you're facing? Where are people trying to go? What have they tried that's worked? What have they tried that's failed? But then, like, I think for the culture component, I think a part of that maybe is, like, feel, and maybe something that I do have a knack for. Again, maybe this is, like, you know, emotional intelligence quotient, where it's like, you know, but it's the company, you know, who is this company? What is important to them? How do they work and go about things? I know thoughtbot is certainly very unique, I think, in that arena in terms of being, like, a really value-driven company, and one where especially, like, marketing and business work is, like, distributed across teams in a really interesting way. You know, I'm sure the fact that it fascinated me and was something I could get passionate and get behind was something that also helped me understand it quickly. CHAD: I was excited that...or it was sort of a coincidence because I had reached out to you and without realizing that you had left Flywire. And Kelly, who had been doing a combined sales and marketing role, was going on parental leave. And so, it was fortuitous [laughs] that you were able to come back and help us and provide coverage, like, Kelly was out. LINDSEY: Yeah, it definitely felt like stars aligned moment, which, you know, I'm pretty woo-woo, so I believe in [laughter]...I believe in that kind of thing. You know, yeah, it was wild. It really did feel like your email came out of nowhere. And, you know, I mentioned it, obviously, to my partner and my friends. And they were like, "Oh, he definitely knows, like, that you left your last company." And I'm like, "I actually don't think he does [laughter]. I actually don't think he does." Yeah, and then we started chatting about me coming back to help. And it was great. thoughtbot makes it hard to work anywhere else [laughs]. So, I was happy to come back. I missed the team. CHAD: And one of the exciting things, and you've mentioned it, is you're not just doing marketing for thoughtbot now. We have started to offer your services to our clients. LINDSEY: Yeah, I'm super excited about this. And it's something I'd started thinking about. I had decided to take some time off between Flywire and my next thing and had started thinking about doing marketing, consulting. And as I'm doing that, I'm thinking a lot about how thoughtbot does consulting and, you know, wanting to emulate something like that. So, I started back up at thoughtbot. That wasn't part of the plan. I was just going to, you know, fill in for Kelly and help with marketing things. But then, you know, a good opportunity arose to work on a client, and I was really excited. When, you know, Chad, you and I chatted through it, we came to the conclusion that this was something worth exploring under the, you know, thoughtbot umbrella. And it's been a really great experience so far. And we now have brought on another client now. And if you're listening and need early-stage B2B marketing support, reach out to lindsey@thoughtbot.com. CHAD: Definitely. And Lindsey is pretty good, so you're going to like it [laughs]. LINDSEY: Yeah, you're going to like the way you look. WILL: Yeah, definitely. Because I can even feel your presence here, you know, coming back. Because even like, you know, the market where it's at now and some of the suggestions that, you know, you've been helping us. For example, like, I do a lot of React Native, and you're like, "Hey, you know, blog posts have done a lot of traction, you know, let's get some more blog posts out in the market to help with the traffic and everything." So, the question I have with that is, like, thank you for even suggesting that because it's, like, those little things that you don't even think about. It's like, oh yeah, blog posts, that's an easy transition to help the market, clients, things like that. But with the market the way it is, what has been your experience working during this time with the market? I don't know if you want to call it struggling, but whatever you want to call it that, it's doing [laughs]. LINDSEY: Yeah, I mean, the economy is difficult now. We also went through a really tough spot when I was here last time. During COVID, you know, we faced a major company challenge. And, I mean, I'll let Chad speak to it, but I would imagine it's probably one of the bigger, like, economic inflection points that you faced. Would you say that? CHAD: Yeah, definitely. The thing about it that made it worse was how quickly it happened. You know, it was something that you didn't see coming, and then, you know, about 40% of our business went away in a single month. That's the kind of thing that was a real shock to the system. I think the thing that made it difficult, too, was then the aspects of COVID, where we were no longer able to go into our studios. We were all working remotely. We were isolated from each other. And so, that made executing on what needed to be done in order to make the company survive additionally challenging. LINDSEY: Yeah, so I think, like, going through that experience, also, and seeing how the team and the leadership team rallied together to get through it. And then, you know, ultimately, I think 2021 and 2022 have, like, really good years. That was a really positive experience. And something I'll definitely take with me for a while is just, like, keeping a cool head and just knowing you have, like, really smart, talented folks with you working on it and that you can get through it. And just, like, doing some, I mean, we relied on what we did best, which was, like, design thinking, using design exercise to think about, like, how we might re-organize the company, or what other services we might try launching, or how might we re-package, you know, larger services into smaller more palatable services when people have, like, kind of tighter purse strings. So, that was, like, a great educational experience, and I think something we just continue to do now: be open to change, be open to changing how we package services, what clients we go after, and coming at it with, like, an agile, experimental mindset and try to find out what works. VICTORIA: I really appreciate that. And it aligns now with the new service we've developed around you and the marketing that you provide. And I'm curious because I've had founders come up to me who say they need help with marketing or they need to, like, figure out their marketing plans. So, say you've met a founder who has this question, like, what questions do you ask them to kind of narrow down what it is they really need and really want to get out of a marketing plan? LINDSEY: I've been thinking about this a lot recently. And, like, obviously, I see other marketing leaders in the market. Marketers like to talk about what they do on LinkedIn [laughs], so I get to...I read a lot about different people's approaches to this. And some people kind of go in and are like, okay, this is what you need. This is how we're going to do it, and they start executing on it. And I really do take a very collaborative approach with founders. I think they're, especially in early stage, they're your most important asset in a way, and a lot of their intuition around the market and the business, you know, it's gotten them to where they're at. And so, I think starting from the point of, like, taking what they view as priorities or challenges, and then helping them better explore them or understand them with my own marketing experience and expertise, to

Podcast: Unsolicited Response (LS 33 · TOP 5% what is this?)Episode: Presidential Candidate Will HurdPub date: 2023-10-04Former Congressman and Presidential candidate Will Hurd is a rarity with a tech background in someone who was elected to the US Congress, and even rarer in someone running for President. Will graduated Texas A&M with Computer Science degree. Worked as a Senior Adviser to the cybersecurity company FusionX, which was acquired by Accenture. More recently he was on the board of OpenAI. This is probably one of the most technical interviews with a Presidential candidate you will hear. Dale asks Will: How he would rate CISA's performance (he co-sponsored the bill to create CISA)? Does the Executive Branch have the authority required to secure critical infrastructure? His views on Cyber Command / DoD policy of "defend forward"? The current level of Congress's technical literacy? What type of cybersecurity legislation, if any, Congress should pass? The podcast and artwork embedded on this page are from Dale Peterson: ICS Security Catalyst and S4 Conference Chair, which is the property of its owner and not affiliated with or endorsed by Listen Notes, Inc.

Former Congressman and Presidential candidate Will Hurd is a rarity with a tech background in someone who was elected to the US Congress, and even rarer in someone running for President. Will graduated Texas A&M with Computer Science degree. Worked as a Senior Adviser to the cybersecurity company FusionX, which was acquired by Accenture. More recently he was on the board of OpenAI. This is probably one of the most technical interviews with a Presidential candidate you will hear. Dale asks Will: How he would rate CISA's performance (he co-sponsored the bill to create CISA)? Does the Executive Branch have the authority required to secure critical infrastructure? His views on Cyber Command / DoD policy of "defend forward"? The current level of Congress's technical literacy? What type of cybersecurity legislation, if any, Congress should pass?

Victoria and Will interview Rishi Malik, the Founder of Backstop.it and VP of Engineering at Varo Bank. They talk about Rishi's recent adventure at DEF CON, the renowned annual security conference that he's attended for six years, and describes how it has transformed from a mere learning experience into a thrilling competition for him and his team. The conference = their playground for tackling an array of security challenges and brain-teasing puzzles, with a primary focus on cloud security competitions. They talk about the significance of community in such events and how problem-solving through interaction adds value. Rishi shares his background, tracing his path from firmware development through various tech companies to his current roles in security and engineering management. The vital topic of security in the fintech and banking sector highlights the initial concerns people had when online banking emerged. Rishi navigates through the technical intricacies of security measures, liability protection, and the regulatory framework that safeguards online banking for consumers. He also highlights the evolving landscape, where technological advancements and convenience have bolstered consumer confidence in online banking. Rishi shares his unique approach to leadership and decision-making, and pearls of wisdom for budding engineers starting their careers. His advice revolves around nurturing curiosity and relentlessly seeking to understand the "why" behind systems and processes. __ Backstop.it (https://backstop.it/) Follow Backstop.it on X (https://twitter.com/wearebackstop). Varo Bank (https://www.varomoney.com/) Follow Varo Bank on Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/varobank/), Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/varomoney/), X (https://twitter.com/varobank), YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/varomoney), or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/varobank/). Follow Rishi Malik on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/rishilmalik/). Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: VICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. WILL: And I'm your other host, Will Larry. And with us today is Rishi Malik, Founder of Backstop.it and VP of Engineering at Varo Bank. Rishi, thank you for joining us. RISHI: Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here. VICTORIA: Yes, Rishi. I'm so excited to talk with you today about your security background and get into your role at Varo and Backstop IT. But first, I wanted to hear a little bit more about your recent experience attending DEF CON. How was that? RISHI: It was awesome. I do have quite the background in security at this point. And one of the things I started doing early on, as I was getting up to speed and learning more about the security-specific side of things, was beginning to attend DEF CON itself. So, I've now gone six years straight. And it started out as just kind of experiencing the conference and security and meeting folks. But it's progressed to where I now bring a team of people where we go and we compete. We have a good time. But we do get to kind of bring the security side of things into the software engineering and engineering leadership stuff that we all do on a day-to-day basis. VICTORIA: Yeah. And what kind of puzzles do you solve with your team when you attend DEF CON? RISHI: There's definitely a lot of variety there, which I think is part of the fun. So, DEF CON frequently has electronic badges, you know, with random puzzles on there that you have to solve. Some of it are cryptographic. Some of them are kind of random cultural things. Sometimes there's music challenges based around it. Sometimes, it's social and interactive. And you have to go find the right type of badge or the right person behind it to unlock something. So, all of those, you know, typically exist and are a ton of fun. Primarily, in the last few years, we've been focusing more on the cloud CTF. So, in this case, it's our team competing against other teams and really focused on cloud security. So, it's, you know, figuring out vulnerabilities in, you know, specially designed puzzles around AWS and GCP, the application side of things as well, and competing to see how well you can do. Three years ago, the last couple of years, we've not won it, but we've been pretty competitive. And the great thing is the field is expanding as more and more people get into CTF themselves but, more importantly, into cloud infrastructure and cloud knowledge there. So, it's just great to see that expansion and see what people are into, what people are learning, and how challenging some of these things can be. VICTORIA: I love the idea of having a puzzle at a conference where you have to find a specific person to solve it. And yeah, I'm always interested in ways where we can have these events where you're getting together and building community and growing expertise in a field but in a way that makes it fun [laughs] and isn't just life-draining long, like, talks about random stuff. RISHI: [laughs] I think what you're touching on there is crucial. And you said the word community, and, to me, that is, you know, a big part of what DEF CON and, you know, hacking and security culture is. But it is, I think, one of the things that kind of outside of this, we tend to miss it more, you know, specifically, like, focused conferences. It is more about kind of the content, you know, the hallway track is always a thing. But it's less intentional than I personally, at this stage, really prefer, you know. So, I do like those things where it is encouraging interaction. For me, I'd rather go to happy hour with some people who are really well versed in the subject that they're in rather than even necessarily listening to a talk from them on what they're doing. Simply because I think the community aspect, the social aspect, actually gets you more of the information that is more relevant to what you're doing on a day-to-day basis than just consuming it passively. VICTORIA: I agree because consuming it passively or even intentionally remotely, there are things that you didn't even think to think about [laughs] that aren't going to come up just on your own. You have to have another person there who's...Actually, I have a good friend who's co-working with me this week who's at Ticketmaster. And so, just hearing about some of the problems they have and issues there has been entertaining for me. So yeah, I love that about DEF CON, and I love hearing about community stories and fun ways that companies can get a benefit out of coming together and just putting good content out there. RISHI: Absolutely. I think problem-solving is where you get the most value out of it as a company and as a business. VICTORIA: Yeah, maybe that's a good segue to tell me a little bit more about your background and how you came to be where you are today. RISHI: Yeah. For me growing up, I was always that problem-solver type of person. So, I think that's what kind of naturally gravitated me towards tech and, you know, hardware and software engineering. You know, so, for me, I go back quite a while. I'd been doing a lot of development, you know, in the early days of my career. I started out doing firmware development back in the days of large tape libraries, right? So, if you think about, like, big businesses back before cloud was a big thing and even back before SSDs were a thing, you know, it was all spinning disks. It was all tape. And that's kind of the area that I started in. So, I was working on robots that actually move tapes around these giant tape libraries that are, you know, taller than I am that you can walk inside of because they're so big, for big corporations to be able to backup their data on an overnight basis. You have to do that kind of stuff. Then I started going into smaller and smaller companies, into web tech, into startups, then into venture-backed startups. And then, eventually, I started my own company and did that for a while. All of this is really just kind of, you know, software engineering in a nutshell, lots of different languages, lots of different technologies. But really, from the standpoint of, here's a whole bunch of hard problems that need to be solved. Let's figure out how we can do that and how we can make some money by solving some of these problems. That eventually kind of led me down the security path as well and the engineering management side of things, which is what I do now, both at Backstop...is a security consulting business and being VP of Engineering at Varo Bank. WILL: How was your journey? Because you started as an intern in 2003. RISHI: [laughs] WILL: And then, you know, 20 years later. So, how was your journey through all of that? [laughs] RISHI: [laughs] You know, I hadn't actually put it together that it has been 20 years this year until you said that. So, that's awesome. It's been a blast, you know. I can honestly say it's been wildly different than what I imagined 20 years ago and interesting in different ways. I think I'm very fortunate to be able to say that. When I started out as an intern in 2003, technologies were very different. I was doing some intern shifts with the federal government, you know, so the pace was wildly different. And when I think of where technology has come now, and where the industry has gone, and what I get to do on a day-to-day basis, I'm kind of just almost speechless at just how far we've come in 20 years, how easy some things are, how remarkably hard some other things are that should honestly be easy at this point, but just the things that we can do. I'm old enough that I remember cell phones being a thing and then smartphones coming out and playing with them and being like, yeah, this is kind of mediocre. I don't really know why people would want this. And the iPhone coming out and just changing the game and being like, okay, now I get it. You know, to the experience of the internet and, you know, mobile data and everywhere. It's just phenomenal the advances that we've had in the last 20 years. And it makes me excited for the next 20 years to see what we can do as we go forward. VICTORIA: I'm going to take personal offense to someone knowing that technology being too old [laughs], but, yeah, because it really wasn't that long ago. And I think one thing I always think about having a background in civic tech and in financial tech as well is that the future is here; it's just not evenly distributed. So, now, if you're building a new company, of course, the default is to go straight to the cloud. But many companies and organizations that have been around for 60-80 years and using the internet right when it first came out are still in really old technologies that just simply work. And maybe they're not totally sure why, and change is difficult and slow. So, I wonder if you have any experience that you can take from the banking or fintech industry on how to make the most out of modern security and compliance platforms. RISHI: Yeah, you know, I think most people in tech especially...and the gray hairs on me are saying the younger folks in tech especially don't realize just how much older technologies still exist and will exist for quite some time. When you think of banking itself, you know, most of the major companies that you can think of, you know, in the U.S. especially but kind of across the world that are the top tier names of banks, and networks, and stuff like that, still run mainframes. When you swipe your credit card, there's a very good chance that is processed on a mainframe. And that's not a bad thing. But it's just, you know when you talk to younger engineers, it's not something that kind of crosses their mind. They feel like it is old-tech. The bulk of businesses don't actually run on the cloud. Having been through it, I've racked and stacked servers and had to figure out how to physically take hardware across, you know, country borders and things like those lines. And now, when I do want to spin up a server somewhere else, it's just a different AWS region. So, it's remarkably easy, at this point, to solve a lot of those problems. But once you're up and live and you have customers, you know, where downtime is impactful or, you know, the cost of moving to the cloud or modernizing your technology is substantial, things tend to move a lot slower. And I think you see that, especially when it comes to security, because we have more modern movements like DevOps bringing security into it. And with a lot of the, you know, the modern security and compliance platforms that exist, they work very, very well for what they do, especially when you're a startup or your whole tech stack is modernized. The biggest challenges, I think, seem to come in when you have that hybrid aspect of it. You do have some cloud infrastructure you have to secure. You do have some physical data centers you have to secure. You have something that is, you know, on-premise in your office. You have something that is co [inaudible 10:01] somewhere else. Or you also have to deal with stuff like, you know, much less modern tech, you know, when it comes to mainframes and security and kind of being responsible for all of that. And I think that is a big challenge because security is one of those things where it's, you know, if you think of your house, you can have the strongest locks on your door and everything else like that. But if you have one weak point, you have a window that's left open, that's all it takes. And so, it has to be all-inclusive and holistic. And I think that is remarkably hard to do well, even despite where technology has come to these days. WILL: Speaking of securities, I remember when the Internet banking started a couple of years ago. And some of the biggest, I guess, fears were, like, the security around it, the safety. Because, you know, your money, you're putting your money in it, and you can't go to a physical location to talk to anyone or anything. And the more and more you learn about it...at first, I was terrified of it because you couldn't go talk to someone. But the more and more I learned about it, I was like, oh, there's so much security around it. In your role, what does that look like for you? Because you have such a huge impact with people's money. So, how do you overcome that fear that people have? RISHI: There's, I think, a number of steps that kind of go into it. And, you know, in 2023, it's certainly a little bit easier than it used to be. But, you know, very similar, I've had the same questions, you know, and concerns that you're describing. And I remember using one of the first banks that was essentially all digital and kind of wondering, you know, where is my money going? What happens if something goes wrong? And all of those types of things. And so, I think there is kind of a number of different aspects that go into it. One is, you know, obviously, the technical aspects of security, you know, when you put your credit card number in on the internet, you know, is it encrypted? You know, is it over, you know, TLS? What's happening there? You know, how safe and secure is all that kind of thing? You know, at this point, pretty much everyone, at least in the U.S., has been affected by credit card breaches, huge companies like Home Depot and Target that got cards accessed or, you know, just even the smaller companies when you're buying something random from maybe something...a smaller website on the internet. You know, that's all a little bit better now. So, I think what you have there was just kind of a little bit of becoming comfortable with what exists now. The other aspect, though, I think, then comes into, well, what happens when something goes wrong? And I think there's a number of aspects that are super helpful for that. I think the liability aspect of credit card, you know, companies saying, you know, and the banks "You're not liable for a fraudulent transaction," I think that was a very big and important step that really helps with that. And on top of that, then I think when you have stuff like the FDIC, you know, and insurance in the U.S., you know, that is government-backed that says, you know what? Even if this is an online-only digital bank, you're safe. You're protected. The government's got your back in that regard. And we're going to make sure that's covered. At Varo, that's one of the key things that we think about a lot because we are a bank. Now, most FinTechs, actually, aren't banks, right? They partner with other third-party banks to provide their financial services. Whereas at Varo, we are federally regulated. And so, we have the full FDIC protection. We get the benefits of that. But it also means that we deal with the regulation aspects and being able to prove that we are safe and secure and show the regulators that we're doing the right things for our customers. And I think that's huge and important because, obviously, it's safety for customers. But then it changes how you begin to think about how you're designing products, and how you're [inaudible 13:34] them, and, you know, how you're marketing them. Are we making a mobile app that shows that we're safe, and secure, and stable? Or are we doing this [inaudible 13:42] thing of moving too fast and breaking things? When it's people's money, you have to be very, very dialed into that. You still have to be able to move fast, but you have to show the protection and the safety that people have because it is impactful to their lives. And so, I think from the FinTech perspective, that's a shift that's been happening over the last couple of years to continue that. The last thing I'll say, too, is that part of it has just come from technology itself and the comfort there. It used to be that people who were buying, you know, items on the internet were more the exception rather than the rule. And now with Amazon, with Shopify, with all the other stuff that's out there, like, it's much more than a norm. And so, all of that just adds that level of comfort that says, I know I'm doing the right things as a consumer, that I'm protected. If I, you know, do have problems, my bank's got my back. The government is watching out for what's happening and trying to do what they can do to regulate all of that. So, I think all of that has combined to get to that point where we can do much more of our banking online and safely. And I think that's a pretty fantastic thing when it comes to what customers get from that. I am old enough that I remember having to figure out times to get to the bank because they're open nine to five, and, you know, I have to deposit my paycheck. And, you know, I work nine to five, and maybe more hours pass, and I had no idea when I can go get that submitted. And now, when I have to deposit something, I can just take a picture with my phone, and it safely makes it to my account. So, I think the convenience that we have now is really amazing, but it has certainly taken some time. And I think a number of different industry and commercial players kind of come together and make that happen. MID-ROLL AD: Now that you have funding, it's time to design, build, and ship the most impactful MVP that wows customers now and can scale in the future. thoughtbot Liftoff brings you the most reliable cross-functional team of product experts to mitigate risk and set you up for long-term success. As your trusted, experienced technical partner, we'll help launch your new product and guide you into a future-forward business that takes advantage of today's new technologies and agile best practices. Make the right decisions for tomorrow today. Get in touch at thoughtbot.com/liftoff. VICTORIA: I appreciate that perspective on approaching security from the user experience of wanting safety. And I'm curious if we can talk in contrast from that experience to the developer experience with security. And how do you, as a new leader in this financial product company, prioritize security and introduce it from a, like, building a safety culture perspective? RISHI: I think you just said that very eloquently. It is a safety culture. And cultural changes are hard. And I think for quite some time in the developer industry, security was either an afterthought or somebody else's problem. You know, it's the security team that has to think about it. It's, you know, and even these days, it's the red team that's going to go, you know, find these answers or whatever I'm shipping as a developer. My only thing to focus on is how fast I can ship, or, you know, what I'm shipping, rather than how secure is what I'm shipping. And so, I think to really be effective at that, it is a cultural shift. You have to think and talk about security from the outset. And you have to bake those processes into how you build product. Those security conversations really do need to start at the design phase. And, you know, thinking about a mobile app for a bank as an example, you know, it starts when you're just thinking about the different screens on a mobile app that people are going to go through. How are people interpreting this? You know, what is the [inaudible 17:23], and the feeling, and the emotions, that we're building towards? You know, is that safe and secure or, you know, is it not? But then it starts getting to the architecture and the design of the systems themselves to say, well, here's how they're going to enter information, here's how we're passing this back and forth. And especially in a world where a lot of software isn't just 100% in-house, but we're calling other partners for that, you know, be it, you know, infrastructure or risk, you know, or compliance, or whatever else it may be, how are we protecting people's data? How are we making sure our third parties are protecting people's data? You know, how are we encrypting it? How are we thinking about their safety all the way through? Again, even all the way down to the individual developer that's writing code, how are we verifying they're writing good, high-quality, secure code? Part of it is training, part of it is culture, part of it is using good tooling around that to be able to make sure and say, when humans make mistakes because we are all human and we all will make mistakes, how are we catching that? What are the layers do we have to make sure that if a mistake does happen, we either catch it before it happens or, you know, we have defense in depth such that that mistake in and of itself isn't enough to cause a, you know, compromise or a problem for our customers? So, I think it starts right from the start. And then, every kind of step along the way for delivering value for customers, also let's add that security and privacy and compliance perspective in there as well. VICTORIA: Yes, I agree. And I don't want to work for a company where if I make a small human mistake, I'm going to potentially cost someone tens or however many thousands of dollars. [laughs] WILL: I have a question around that. How, as a leader, how does that affect you day to day? Because I feel like there's some companies, maybe thoughtbot, maybe other companies, that a decision is not as critical as working as a bank. So, you, as a leader, how do you handle that? RISHI: There's a couple of things I try and consider in any given big or important decision I have to make, the aspects around, like, you know, the context, what the decision is, and that type of stuff. But from a higher level, there's kind of two things I try and keep in mind. And when I say keep in mind, like, when it's a big, impactful decision, I will actually go through the steps of, you know, writing it down or talking this out loud, sometimes by myself, sometimes with others, just, again, to make sure we are actually getting to the meat of it. But the first thing I'm trying to think of is kind of the Amazon idea of one-way versus two-way doors. If we make this decision and this is the wrong decision, what are the ramifications of that? You know, is it super easy to undo and there's very little risk with it? Or is it once we've made this decision or the negative outcome of this decision has happened, is it unfixable to a certain degree? You know, and that is a good reminder in my head to make sure that, you know, A, I am considering it deeply. And that, B, if it is something where the ramifications, you know, are super huge, that you do take the time, and you do the legwork necessary to make sure you're making a good, valid decision, you know, based on the data, based on the risks involved and that there's a deep understanding of the problem there. The second thing I try to think of is our customers. So, at Varo, our customers aren't who most banks target. A lot of banks want you to take all your money, put it in there, and they're going to loan that money out to make their money. And Varo is not that type of bank, and we focus on a pretty different segment of the market. What that means is our customers need their money. They need it safely and reliably, and it needs to be accurate when they have it. And what I mean by that is, you know, frequently, our customers may not have, you know, hundreds or a thousand dollars worth of float in their bank accounts. So, if they're going and they're buying groceries and they can't because there's an error on our side because we're down, and because the transactions haven't settled, then that is very, very impactful to them, you know, as an individual. And I think about that with most of these decisions because being in software and being in engineering I am fortunate enough that I'm not necessarily experiencing the same economic struggles that our customers may have. And so, that reminder helps me to think about it from their perspective. In addition, I also like to try and think of it from the perspective...from my mom, actually, who, you know, she is retired age. She's a teacher. She's non-technical. And so, I think about her because I'd say, okay, when we're making a product or a design decision, how easy is it for her to understand? And my biases when I think about that, really kind of come into focus when I think about how she would interpret things. Because, you know, again, for me, I'm in tech. I think about things, you know, very analytically. And I just have a ton of experience across the industry, which she doesn't have. So, even something as simple as a little bit of copy for a page that makes a ton of sense to me, when I think about how she would interpret it, it's frequently wildly different. And so, all of those things, I think, kind of come together to help make a very strong and informed decision in these types of situations where the negative outcomes really do matter. But you are, you know, as Varo is, you're a startup. And you do need to be able to build more products quickly because our customers have needs that aren't being met by the existing banking industry. And so, we need to provide value to them so that their lives are a bit better. VICTORIA: I love that focus on a specific market segment and their needs and solving for that problem. And we know that if you're at a certain income level, it's more expensive [laughs] because of the overdraft fees and other things that can cause you problems. So, I really appreciate that that's the mission at Varo, and that's who you're focusing on to create a better banking product that makes more sense. I'm curious if there were any surprises and challenges that you could share from that discovery process and finding out, you know, exactly what were those things where your mom was, like, uh, actually, I need something completely different. [laughs] RISHI: Yeah, so, [chuckles] I'm chuckling because, you know, it's not, like, a single kind of time or event. It's, you know, definitely an ongoing process. But, you know, as actually, we were talking, you know, about earlier in terms of being kind of comfortable with doing things digital and online, that in and of itself is something that even in 2023, my mom isn't as comfortable or as confident as, you know, say, maybe the three of us are. As an example, when sending money, you know, kind of like a peer-to-peer basis, like, if I'm sending my mom a little bit of money, or she's sending me something, you're kind of within the family. Things that I would think would be kind of very easy and straightforward actually do cause her a little bit more concern. Okay, I'm entering my debit card number into this so that it can get, you know, the cash transferred into my bank account. You know, again, for me, it didn't even cross my mind, actually, that that would be something uncomfortable. But for my mom, that was something where she actually had some concerns about it and was messaging me. Her kind of personal point of view on that was, I would rather use a credit card for this and get the money on a credit card instead of a debit card because the debit card is linked to a bank account, and the security around that needs to be, you know, much tighter. And so, it made her more uncomfortable entering that on her phone. Whereas even a credit card it would have given her a little bit more peace of mind simply because it wasn't directly tied to her bank account. So, that's just, you know, the most recent example. I mean, honestly, that was earlier today, but it's something I hadn't thought of. And, again, for most of our customers, maybe that's not the case and how they think. But for folks that are at that retirement age, you know, in a world where there are constant barrages of scam, you know, emails, and phone calls, and text messages going around, the concern was definitely there. VICTORIA: That happened to me. Last week, I was on vacation with my family, and we needed to pay my mom for the house we'd rented. And I had to teach her how to use Zelle and set up Zelle. [laughter] It was a week-long process. But we got there, and it works [laughs] now. But yeah, it's interesting what concerns they have. And the funny part about it was that my sister-in-law happens to be, like, a lawyer who prevents class action lawsuits at a major bank. And she reassured us that it was, in fact, secure. [laughs] I think it's interesting thinking about that user experience for security. And I'm curious, again, like, compare again with the developer experience and using security toolings. And I wonder if you had any top recommendations on tools that make the developer experience a little more comfortable and feeling like you're deploying with security in mind. RISHI: That, in particular, is a bit of a hard question to answer. I try and stay away from specific vendors when it comes to that because I think a lot of it is contextual. But I could definitely talk through, like, some of the tools that I use and the way I like to think about it, especially from the developer perspective. I think, first off, consider what aspect of the software development, you know, lifecycle you're in. If you are an engineer writing, you know, mostly application code and dealing with building product and features and stuff like that, start from that angle. I could even take a step back and say security as an industry is very, very wide at this point. There is somebody trying to sell you a tool for basically every step in the SDLC process, and honestly, before and after to [inaudible 26:23]. I would even almost say it's, to some extent, kind of information and vendor overload in a lot of ways. So, I think what's important is to think about what your particular aspect of that is. Again, as an application engineer, or if you're building cloud infrastructure, or if you're an SRE, you know, or a platform team, kind of depending on what you are, your tooling will be different. The concepts are all kind of similar ideas, but how you go about what you build will be different. In general, I like to say, from the app side of things, A, start with considering the code you're writing. And that's a little bit cultural, but it's also kind of more training. Are you writing code with a security mindset? are you designing systems with a security mindset? These aren't things that are typically taught, you know, in school if you go get a CS degree, or even in a lot of companies in terms of the things that you should be thinking about. So, A, start from there. And if you don't feel like you think about, you know, is this design secure? Have we done, you know, threat modeling on it? Are we considering all of the error paths or the negative ways people can break the system? Then, start from that and start going through some of the security training that exists out there. And there's a lot of different aspects or avenues by which you can get that to be able to say, like, okay, I know I'm at least thinking about the code I write with a security mindset, even if you haven't actually changed anything about the code you're writing yet. What I actually think is really helpful for a lot of engineers is to have them try and break things. It's why I like to compete in CTFs, but it's also why I like to have my engineers do the same types of things. Trying to break software is both really insightful from the aspect that you don't get when you're just writing code and shipping it because it's not something you have time to do, but it's also a great way to build up some of the skills that you need to then protect against. And there's a lot of good, you know, cyber ranges out there. There's lots of good, just intentionally vulnerable applications that you can find on GitHub but that you can just run, you know, locally even on your machine and say, okay, now I have a little web app stood up. I know this is vulnerable. What do I do? How do I go and break it? Because then all of a sudden, the code that you're writing you start to think about a little bit differently. It's not just about how am I solving this product problem or this development problem? But it's, how am I doing this in a way that is safe and secure? Again, as an application side of things, you know, just make sure you know the OWASP Top 10 inside and out. Those are the most basic things a lot of engineers miss. And it only takes, again, one miss for it to be critical. So, start reviewing it. And then, you start to think about the tooling aspect of it. People are human. We're going to make mistakes. So, how do we use the power of technology to be able to stop this? You know, and there is static scanning tools. Like, there's a whole bunch of different ones out there. You know, Semgrep is a great one that's open source just to get started with that can help you find the vulnerable code that may exist there. Consider the SQL queries that you're writing, and most importantly, how you're writing them. You know, are you taking user input and just chucking it in there, or are you sanitizing it? When I ask these questions, for a lot of engineers, it's not usually yes or no. It's much more of an, well, I don't know. Because in software, we do a really good job of writing abstraction layers. But that also means, you know, to some extent, there may be a little bit of magic in there, or a lack thereof of magic that you don't necessarily know about. And so, you have to be able to dive into the libraries. You have to know what you're doing to even be able to say something like, oh no, this SQL query is safe from this user input because we have sanitized it. We have, you know, done a prepared statement, whatever it may be. Or, no, actually, we are just doing something here that's been vulnerable, and we didn't realize we were, and so now that's something we have to address. So, I think, like, that aspect in and of itself, which isn't, you know, a crazy ton of things. It's not spending a ton of money on different tools. But it's just internalizing the fact that you start to think a little bit differently. It provides a ton of value. The last thing on that, too, is to be able to say, especially if you're coming from a development side, or even just from a founder or a startup side of things, what are my big risks? What do I need to take care of first? What are the giant holes or flaws? You know, and what is my threat model around that? Obviously, as a bank, you have to care very deeply right from the start. You know, if you're not a bank, if you're not dealing with financial transactions, or PII, or anything like that, there are some things that you can deal with a little bit later. So, you have to know your industry, and you have to know what people are trying to do and the threat models and the threat vectors that can exist based on where you are. WILL: That's amazing. You know, earlier, we talked about you being an engineer for 20 years, different areas, and stuff like that. Do you have any advice for engineers that are starting out right now? And, you know, from probably year one to year, you know, anything under ten years of experience, do you have any advice that you usually give engineers when you're chatting with them? RISHI: The advice I tend to give people who are just starting out is be the type of person that asks, "How does this work?" Or "Why does this work?" And then do the work to figure out the answer. Maybe it is talking to someone; maybe it's diving into the details; maybe it's reading a book in some aspect that you haven't had much exposure to. When I look at my career and when I look at the careers of folks around me and the people that I've seen be most successful, both in engineering but also on the business side, that desire to know why something is the case is I think, one of the biggest things that determines success. And then the ability to answer that question by putting in the right types of work, the right types of scientific method and processes and such, are the other factor. So, to me, that's what I try and get across to people. I say that mostly to junior folks because I think when you're getting started, it's really difficult. There's a ton out there. And we've, again, as software engineers, and hardware engineers, and cloud, and all this kind of stuff, done a pretty good job of building a ton of abstraction layers. All of our abstraction layers [inaudible 32:28] to some degree. You know, so as you start, you know, writing a bunch of code, you start finding a bunch of bugs that you don't necessarily know how to solve and that don't make any sense in the avenue that you've been exposed to. But as soon as you get into the next layer, you understand how that works begin to make a lot more sense. So, I think being comfortable with saying, "I have no idea why this is the case, but I'm going to go find out," makes the biggest difference for people just starting out their career. WILL: I love that advice. Not too long ago, my manager encouraged me to write a blog post on something that I thought that I really knew. And when I started writing that blog post, I was like, oh boy, I have no idea. I know how to do it, but I don't know the why behind it. And so, I was very thankful that he encouraged me to write a blog post on it. Because once you start explaining it to other people, I feel you really have to know the whys. And so, I love that advice. That's really good advice. VICTORIA: Me too. And it makes sense with what we see statistically as well in the DORA research. The DevOps Research Association publishes a survey every year, the State of DevOps Report. And one of the biggest findings I remember from last year's was that the most secure and reliable systems have the most open communication and high trust among the teams. And so, being able to have that curiosity as a junior developer, you need to be in an environment where you can feel comfortable asking questions [laughs], and you can approach different people, and you're encouraged to make those connections and write blog posts like Will was saying. RISHI: Absolutely, absolutely. I think you touched on something very important there as well. The psychological safety really makes a big difference. And I think that's critical for, again, like, folks especially earlier in their career or have recently transitioned to tech, or whatever the case may be. Because asking "Why?" should be something that excites people, and there are companies where that's not necessarily the case, right? Where you asking why, it seems to be viewed as a sign that you don't know something, and therefore, you're not as good as what you should be, you know, the level you should be at or for whatever they expect. But I do think that's the wrong attitude. I think the more people ask why, the more people are able and comfortable to be able to say, "I don't know, but I'm going to go find out," and then being able to be successful with that makes way better systems. It makes way safer and more secure systems. And, honestly, I think it makes humans, in general, better humans because we can do that. VICTORIA: I think that's a great note to start to wrap up on. Is there any questions that you have for me or Will? RISHI: Yeah. I would love to hear from both of you as to what you see; with the experiences that you have and what you do, the biggest impediments or speed bumps are when it comes to developers being able to write and ship secure code. VICTORIA: When we're talking with new clients, it depends on where they are in really the adoption of their product and the maturity of their organization. Some early founders really have no technology experience. They have never managed an IT organization. You know, setting up basic employee account access and IDs is some of the initial steps you have to take to really get to where you can do identity management, and permissions management, and all the things that are really table stakes for security. And then others have some progress, and they have a fair amount of data. And maybe it's in that situation, like you said before, where it's really a trade-off between the cost and benefit of making those changes to a more secure, more best practice in the cloud or in their CI/CD pipeline or wherever it may be. And then, when you're a larger organization, and you have to make the trade-offs between all of that, and how it's impacting your developer experience, and how long are those deployed times now. And you might get fewer rates of errors and fewer rates of security vulnerabilities. But if it's taking three hours for your deployments to go out [laughs] because there's so many people, and there's so many checks to go through, then you have to consider where you can make some cuts and where there might be more efficiencies to be gained. So, it's really interesting. Everyone's on a different point in their journey. And starting with the basics, like you said, I love that you brought up the OWASP Top 10. We've been adopting the CIS Controls and just doing a basic internal security audit ourselves to get more ready and to be in a position where... What I'm familiar with as well from working in federal agencies, consulting, maintaining some of the older security frameworks can be a really high cost, not only in terms of auditing fees but what it impacts to your organization to, like, maintain those things [laughs] and the documentation required. And how do you do that in an agile way, in a way that really focuses on addressing the actual purpose of the requirements over needing to check a box? And how do we replicate that for our clients as well? RISHI: That is super helpful. And I think the checkbox aspect that you just discussed I think is key. It's a difficult position to be in when there are boxes that you have to check and don't necessarily actually add value when it comes to security or compliance or, you know, a decrease in risk for the company. And I think that one of the challenges industry-wide has always been that security and compliance in and of itself tends to move a little bit slower from a blue team or a protection perspective than the rest of the industry. And so, I mean, I can think of, you know, audits that I've been in where, you know, just even the fact that things were cloud-hosted just didn't make sense to the auditors. And it was a struggle to get them to understand that, you know, there is shared responsibility, and this kind of stuff exists, and AWS is taking care of some things, and we're taking care of some other things when they've just been developed with this on-premise kind of mentality. That is one of the big challenges that still exists kind of across the board is making sure that the security work that you're doing adds security value, adds business value. It isn't just checking the box for the sake of checking the box, even when that's sometimes necessary. VICTORIA: I am a pro box checker. RISHI: [laughs] VICTORIA: Like, I'll get the box checked. I'll use Trello and Confluence and any other tool besides Excel to do it, too. We'll make it happen with less pain, but I'd rather not do it [laughs] if we don't have to. RISHI: [laughs] VICTORIA: Let's make it easy. No, I love it. Is there anything else that you want to promote? RISHI: No, I don't think there's anything else I want to promote other than I'm going to go back to what I said just earlier, like, that culture. And if, you know, folks are out there and you have junior engineers, you have engineers that are asking "Why?", you have people that just want to do the right thing and get better, lean into that. Double down on those types of folks. Those are the ones that are going to make big differences in what you do as a business, and do what you can to help them out. I think that is something we don't see enough of in the industry still. And I would love for that to change. VICTORIA: I love that. Thank you so much, Rishi, for joining us. RISHI: Thanks for having me. This was a great conversation. I appreciate the time. VICTORIA: You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. WILL: And you could find me on Twitter @will23larry. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. ANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com. Special Guest: Rishi Malik.

What are the 17 United Nations Sustainable Development Goals? What are the biggest challenges in pursuing and achieving those goals? How does technology play a role? And what's the best way for government, academia, and industry to cooperate and collaborate in support of fundamental research? We will learn those answers and more in this episode with Declan Kirrane, the Chairman of the Science Summit at the United Nations General Assembly, and founder and managing director of ISC Intelligence in Science. Declan has more than 25 years of experience as a global senior advisor to governments and industry on science research, science policy and related regulation. He has been actively promoting a more significant role for science within the context of the United Nations General Assembly since 2010. This has culminated in the annual Science Summit within the context of the UN's General Assembly. The focus of the Summit is on the role and contribution of science to attain the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals – or SDGs. The current edition – UNGA78 - takes place from September 12-29, and will bring together thought leaders, scientists, technologists, policymakers, philanthropists, journalists, and community leaders to increase health science and citizen collaborations to promote the importance of supporting science. And we are thrilled that Oracle will be part of the Science Summit with a few of our executives speaking and attending, including Alison Derbenwick Miller, global head and VP of Oracle for Research.   -------------------------------------------------------- Episode Transcript: http://traffic.libsyn.com/researchinaction/Research_in_Action_S01_E19.mp3   00;00;00;00 - 00;00;22;29 What are the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals? What are the biggest challenges in pursuing and achieving those goals? And what's the best way for government, academia and industry to cooperate and collaborate in support of basic research? We'll get the answers to all this and more on Research in Action.   00;00;23;02 - 00;00;49;08 Hi, and welcome back to Research and Action, brought to you by Oracle for Research. I'm Mike Stiles and today's distinguished guest is Declan Kirrane, who is the chairman of the Science Summit at the United Nations General Assembly and the founder and managing director of ISC Intelligence and Science. And we're talking to a guy with more than 25 years of experience as a global senior advisor to governments and industry on science research, science policy and regulation around science.   00;00;49;10 - 00;01;17;07 Declan has been promoting a bigger role for science in the context of the U.N. General Assembly since 2010, and that's led to an annual science summit that focuses on the role and contribution of science to reach the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals or SDGs. The current edition UNGA 78 is happening September 12th through 29th and will bring together thought leaders, scientists, technologists, policymakers, philanthropists, journalists and community leaders.   00;01;17;09 - 00;01;37;02 We'll talk about increasing health science and citizen collaborations and why it's important to support science overall. Now, Oracle's actually going to be part of that science summit a few of the executives will be there speaking, including Alison Derbenwick Miller, who's global head and VP of Oracle for Research. Declan, thank you so much for being with us today.   00;01;37;08 - 00;01;58;13 Thanks, Michael. Great to be here. Thank you for the opportunity. Delighted to be here. What we want to hear all about the science summit at the U.N. General Assembly. But before we go there, tell me what got you not just into science, but science policies and your role in creating this summit? Well, first is, I suppose, the simple answer to that is happenstance.   00;01;58;13 - 00;02;21;10 I have to tell you, it was not planned. My primary degree is the history of art. And then I did law and probably needed a job after all of that. And then as a lot of people did in the late, late eighties, emigrated to the U.S. of A and on the basis that there was nothing going on in Ireland.   00;02;21;10 - 00;02;51;23 So opportunity beckoned and therefore from that worked on Wall Street and at a boutique mutual fund company. And then between one thing and another, I ended up in a in a boutique similar boutique company in Paris. And from that to Greece and from that, I got into more consulting side of things and from that started working for global multilateral bodies such as the World Bank and the IMF on a contract basis.   00;02;51;23 - 00;03;23;25 And then from that got more into telecoms and from that into into science coming out. And I suppose from the area of telecoms, infrastructure and data rather than, if you like, a bank scientist. And I suppose my history of art background gave me a wonderful perspective on policy, at least that's what I argue. And, and from that I got very interested and from the insights, but partly because the European Commission invited me and a couple of others to set up a dissemination service.   00;03;23;25 - 00;03;57;19 It's called Cordis. Cordis and the Cordis Information Service was designed by the European Commission to provide information on ongoing collaborative research and to provide information on publicly funded research opportunities in the course. The reason the European Union did that was to was to ensure that the information resulting from funding they're providing reached a very, very wide audience. So my job was to to do that and we built that out and that brought me into the area of science policy.   00;03;57;22 - 00;04;27;19 And I gradually began to understand the huge importance of science policy. And of course, 20 years ago science policy was not a thing, you know, it doesn't really exist in terms of policy making headlines, but it gradually came to be and as you know, it's it's part of the lexicon now. A lot of governments around the world have science policy priorities, and it's recognized as a driver for economic development and global competitiveness and driving solutions to global challenges.   00;04;27;19 - 00;04;51;05 So sciences is a thing, but 20 years ago it wasn't. So it's a relatively recent and I began quickly to appreciate the policy dimension of that, and that led me to work on policy that led me to understand policy mechanisms. And, you know, from my standpoint, I mean, there's no point in looking at some global challenges or many global challenges from a national perspective.   00;04;51;12 - 00;05;21;24 Really, it has to be global, it has to be international. That led me to engage with the United Nations. And from that, we just started to build from, as you say, from 2010, to start to build, engage with nations. And I really want to stress these were designed to be very, very simple to present not to a scientific forum, but to the U.N. for it to the mother ship, to the General Assembly, to diplomats, to policy and political leaders, and show them what science is.   00;05;21;24 - 00;05;43;04 And to give you a practical example, our first meeting was on biobanking. And you know, the main attention, wasn't it? What's biobanking? You see, that's exactly what we want. The want the question we wanted them to ask. And from Matt and that first mission, I think there's about 18 people in the room and we had about four or five diplomats last year at the Science summit.   00;05;43;06 - 00;06;07;02 We had approximately 60,000 participants. We had just under 400 sessions and we had 1600 speakers. So we've come a long way. And that really now is it's it's it's established. But we want to keep promoting. We want to keep science in the eye of the U.N. and we want to ensure that the future recognizes the contribution of science.   00;06;07;05 - 00;06;27;29 That's quite a journey. I think you did just about everything except science. Are you sure you weren't in the circus as well? Yeah, well, it's it's, you know, it's all true, you know, So, yeah, it's it's put a lot of it. Last 20 years has been on primarily on science. Yeah. Well in the intro I mentioned the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals or SDGs.   00;06;27;29 - 00;06;54;00 And our listeners are pretty savvy. They probably know about those, but I'm not savvy. So what are SDGs and how do they speak to global health and humanity in the in the in the mid nineties the the United Nations. And when I say the United Nations, I mean many of the United Nations constituent entities and agencies obviously were very concerned about what we generally call global challenges.   00;06;54;00 - 00;07;18;29 And in the area of health and other forms of well-being, the environment, climate, food security and safety and so on and so forth. And that led to a consensus that there needed to be, quote unquote, you know, how's this for a cliche? We have to do something. So that we have to do something resulted in the Millennium Development Goals, which were, as you can imagine, launched on the year 2000.   00;07;19;02 - 00;07;44;01 And they set forward these goals to to  address challenges. And that that 50 years went by pretty quickly. And that then led on to a similar mechanism where you identify a challenge, you define a response to it, and then you allocate specific targets within that and get everyone to sign up to that and off you go now.   00;07;44;03 - 00;08;12;18 So that then that broad approach was repeated for the United Nations SDGs, the Sustainable Development Goals, of which there are 17. And they cover the headlines that you'd imagine between poverty reduction, hunger reduction, improved health, a life below water, life on land, addressing obviously biodiversity, climate and many other areas. And then we're in the middle of these now.   00;08;12;21 - 00;08;45;10 But already the world is turning its attention to the post SDG agenda. And this is where this probably where we are now. The United Nations is organizing the summit of the future September 2024, and that I suppose you could characterize that meeting rather I do as a a banging of heads together because there is a sense of crisis, there is a sense the SDGs are not being achieved, that progress towards the attainment of the SDGs is insufficient.   00;08;45;12 - 00;09;07;19 It is exclusive. It excludes many constituencies, many countries, and again, I won't enumerate them here, but I just present that as as the scenario. So there's now a lot of momentum behind what we know. What do we do next? Why old humble viewers? I don't think it's going to be a if you like, a goals oriented process. I think that's too simplistic.   00;09;07;19 - 00;09;41;01 The world. I think as we found out, is much, much more complex. And I think the issue of inclusion and equity are issues that are present in a way that they were not when the Millennium Development Goals and the Sustainable Development Goals were designed 30 and 50 years ago, respectively. And I think this equity dimension is going to give a far stronger voice to less developed nations.   00;09;41;01 - 00;10;07;05 And just on the back of an envelope calculation, I think if you take the OECD countries and change, you've probably got 30 nations that we could call a developed. And then I suppose the big questions that what about everybody else? And that is becoming a very stark consideration, which was not there. And this needs to be addressed in terms of inclusion and equity to a much, much greater extent than is currently the case.   00;10;07;05 - 00;10;37;01 And arguably then will lead to a more successful approach to whatever succeeds the SDGs, the SDGs. I'm interested in the mechanics behind that because I'm just kind of reading between the lines of what you're saying and it's like for this thing to have true accountability and for these goals to have any teeth at all. There does need to be a someone accountable, be a very good grasp of who the participants are going to be and some form of deadline.   00;10;37;04 - 00;11;01;19 Absolutely correct. Mike And that that was that the plan A the problem with that in in in in a word is it doesn't really work you've so many moving parts you've so many constituencies that it's you know, having this set table of goals and table of targets and allocating milestones know simply doesn't work. Now, why doesn't it work?   00;11;01;21 - 00;11;29;07 I believe in my view it is that many less developed nations don't have the wherewithal to achieve these SDGs. One needs investment, one needs skills, one needs training, one needs cooperation, one is finance. I mean, these are all requirements to make change it, particularly in the area of or particularly in every area. But if you look at health, if you look at energy transformation, if you look at digital transformation, they don't happen without moolah, without money.   00;11;29;14 - 00;11;48;22 So the question is, well, where's I coming from? The answer, I'm afraid, is it's not. And that leaves a lot of they again, when I say lesser developed nations, I mean that is the majority that's 150 nations on the on the on the on a rough calculation. And they're not they don't feel involved. They don't feel they're taken seriously in terms of support for the investment.   00;11;48;24 - 00;12;13;12 And I think they're looking looking at the developed world and they're saying, well, okay, you benefited from carbonized development then and now we're supposed to do on carbonized development and how is that going to work for us? And there's no answer to that. So I think it's extremely complex. And as you say, trying to build consensus around this is extremely difficult because any move forward does require political consensus as very, very hard to get these days.   00;12;13;12 - 00;12;30;16 I mean, you can you can look at Ukraine, you can look at you can look at the Sahel, you can look at many parts of the world where consensus are at a political level. It's very difficult, if not impossible. And then you factor into that, well, how do you then adopt action plans? How do you adopt roadmaps? Again, extremely difficult.   00;12;30;16 - 00;12;54;14 So I in my view, the the SDGs have come a bit unstuck because of the inability of developed nations to provide the necessary wherewithal, including funding. And therefore, of course, the other side of that coin is the inability of of many, many nations to advance those objectives, to achieve the goals that have been set out to reach those targets.   00;12;54;14 - 00;13;32;09 And that simply is not happening. And on SDG eight in the High-Level Policy Forum in July of this year and the the process of reporting on SDH was abandoned for reasons which I think are quite obvious, and no one had anything to report. So I point to that specifically. And also I was with a number of African nation ambassadors for dinner in Brussels two weeks ago, and they pointed out that they've stopped wearing their SDG lapel pins, you see.   00;13;32;11 - 00;13;56;13 And there's two reasons for that. One is in protest at the slow progress towards the SDGs, and secondly, because of, as they see it, their exclusion from the decision making process associated with the SDGs, which, as you can imagine, has a, you know, an annual review mechanism and and and all that sort of stuff. They feel excluded from that.   00;13;56;13 - 00;14;27;04 And my own view is they are for the reasons I've I think I've mentioned or alluded to and this brings this this promotes exclusion and inequity. And again, to repeat this, this wasn't in fashion 50 years ago to the extent that it is today. Now, it is a very, very strong policy and political force. And the institutions, the multilateral institutions that take leadership on these issues now have to find ways to to address that and to build inclusion in a very, very significant and meaningful way.   00;14;27;04 - 00;14;50;08 It's not just the family photo opportunities. It's making sure that these communities, that the stakeholders feel they're involved and they are involved. They're seeing the benefits. And I suppose to that extent, it's it's you know, it's politics as usual. Boy, those those challenges are just huge. It's it's quite an undertaking to to pursue those. But I guess that's what also makes it exciting as well.   00;14;50;10 - 00;15;11;10 Since this show is called Research and Action, we do talk a lot about the need to knock down barriers and support research, but research has several stages from basic all the way through clinical. What is especially important about supporting basic research and getting that right? What are those benefits? I suppose so. Simply put, you know, that's where it all starts.   00;15;11;10 - 00;15;45;05 And when we talk about basic research, we talk about basic research, but I would also call it pre competitive research. So that's a start for, you know, is everybody's friends and everybody is collaborating before they before they apply for a patent or before they discover discover something they can monetize or exploit or innovation in whichever way. And I think a very important aspect of this is the fact that it's by and large government funded, and this gives it a very important dimension, not to mention is seeding the potential for innovation.   00;15;45;07 - 00;16;08;28 And I often reflect that if you if you the government plays a huge role in science and technology. And now I don't have the details in front of me, but, you know, as far as I understand it, about a Tesla Enterprise wouldn't be where it is today without a small business loan from the US government. And of course, Mr. Gates was a beneficiary of government contracts at a very early stage in the development of Microsoft.   00;16;08;28 - 00;16;30;01 So just to point there to the importance of government funding across the board with respect to the government investment in science and technology in the pre competitive space, there's a clear recognition that without a synchrotron or without the government investing in synchrotron or large scale science facilities, then I think we're not going to have stakeholders who can build those.   00;16;30;03 - 00;16;52;12 So it simply simply won't happen. Many, many outcomes I think are evident in terms of the investment and in science and technology. You know, basically we have an advance in knowledge. Basic research seeks to understand the fundamental principles underlying various phenomena. And I think the curiosity driven research around this then leads to much innovation. But of course you don't know that at the beginning.   00;16;52;12 - 00;17;10;28 So I think there has to be a very strong political commitment to Blue skies research. And again, I stress the word political committee because it is a policy decision for a government, any government to invest in pretty competitive research, in science, capacity building, which is predominantly pre competitive and on in there in basic science. So I think that's that's hugely important.   00;17;10;28 - 00;17;34;11 Just to point to the policy dimension, I think that then leads to various innovations and that that that is applying. So you see a very clear narrative between basic research, innovation and applied research. Many groundbreaking innovations and technological advancements have emerged from the discoveries made in basic research. And I think this needs to be spelt out very often when a policymaker gets up in the morning.   00;17;34;18 - 00;17;56;18 That can be a complicated narrative. You know what I want to be getting from this? Why spend vast sums of money on basic research, blah, blah, blah? But I think when you look at the evidence, I think then the case is is compelling. But of course, that needs to be understood continuously, primarily by policymakers. And it does bring long term benefits, The outcomes of basic research might not lead to immediate benefits or applications.   00;17;56;18 - 00;18;25;27 However, these insights often lay the groundwork for future breakthroughs, which could and very often do have significant societal, economic or technological impacts over time. Problem solving is another reason to fund and do basic research educational value. Basic research plays a critical role in educating the next generation or generations, indeed, of scientists, researchers and thinkers. It provides a training ground for students to learn research methodologies, critical thinking and analytical skills.   00;18;26;00 - 00;18;52;06 And these values have multiple applications, multiple applications. And then we have cross-disciplinary insights. I think this is self evident. Basic research often leads to unexpected connections between different fields of study. These interdisciplinary insights can spark collaborations and innovations that otherwise wouldn't come to the fore. Intellectual curiosity, I think, needs also to be highlighted. Then we have the benefits coming from scientific advancement.   00;18;52;10 - 00;19;26;18 So I think Mike, there are many, many, many benefits in that. And I'd just like to point to really one example of basic research. You may not be a follower of radio astronomy or you might be about South Africa won a global competition to build the square kilometer Array telescope, the SKA, and that was a global competition in 2011 against the UK, against Chile, China, Brazil and Canada.   00;19;26;18 - 00;19;50;25 I believe there may be one or two other countries there as South Africa won the right to host and to build the UK and it is now doing that. It's probably a 30 year project. But here you have an example of of an African nation competing to build a hugely complex scientific instrument in the middle of the Karoo desert.   00;19;50;25 - 00;20;30;21 Now why do that? Many reasons to do it. But one of the compelling reasons that I learned from exposure to the project is the enormous commitment that the South African government and now, of course, to have partner countries, including Australia, that huge commitment they have made to education and training the next generation through the scale. And you will see in the system you'll see that many US multinationals, the Dell Corporation, IBM, Microsoft have very strong project association and collaboration with the UK and South Africa.   00;20;30;24 - 00;21;00;04 When the Economist wrote about the UK in 2016, I believe it was, they said this is the world's largest science project. And I think, you know, just it's worth reflecting on that. And this has enormous, enormous future potential. It has existing benefits to the scientific community and of course it is a huge flagship idea that provides a lightning rod for scientific collaboration across Africa and across the world.   00;21;00;11 - 00;21;26;13 At a very practical level, it brings many scientists to visit the facility to work with African and South African collaborators. So this is an ongoing benefit. I think a wonderful example of what our research infrastructure is, what basic science is, and why it should be funded. Yeah, what you just described is an enormous success story. But, you know, candidly, my optimism is challenged because so much of this does rely on government participation.   00;21;26;19 - 00;21;54;08 Yet it feels like as long as money and politics is in the picture, those are the anchors that can weigh things down. And against that backdrop is the science summit. So how did the science summit become a reality and was there any resistance to it or did anybody think this wasn't a good idea or not worth doing? The as far as I've learned, I mean, the response has been universally very, very positive, extremely positive.   00;21;54;11 - 00;22;26;03 And that's because the science summit is designed aimed to advance a greater awareness of the contribution of science to the SDGs. Now, how do you do that? You do that by bringing folk together. And those folk are not just the scientists. I mean, we're not organizing an ecology conference, we're not organizing a radio astronomy conference, we're organizing a science engagement process with U.N. leadership.   00;22;26;06 - 00;22;54;09 And more than that, we are showing how science needs to be inclusive. So to that end, we have a very strong narrative around inclusion. We have a very strong narrative around development, finance for scientific education, for science, performance and investment in science. And through doing that, we are education policymakers. We are engaging with policy makers. And I need to stress this invariably is it is a process.   00;22;54;16 - 00;23;15;28 But at the end of the day, policymakers that I have engaged with at many levels in Africa, Europe and the United States, they want to make the world a better place. I don't think there's any any doubt about that at very often in that quest, they are very remote from the outputs of science for the evidence that is there that shows that science delivers.   00;23;15;28 - 00;23;38;28 Of course, it's in the system. But very often the political system of political decision making is very human. It's a very natural process. It's not always empirical. And I think as you know, and possibly in in the Western world, we see that policy making is becoming more political with a small P. So it's into that environment that we are going and showing how science makes a difference.   00;23;39;05 - 00;24;08;26 Practically. We're showing how science delivers on the SDGs, we're showing how science delivers on the future challenges. And with reference to a very important aspect, we're also highlighting the the importance of enabling access to data now, and this is you'll probably be familiar with the European Union's General Data Protection Regulation, and there are other regulatory regimes in in the United States and Canada, Japan and Brazil and and elsewhere.   00;24;08;28 - 00;24;33;19 And now we are looking at the evolution of regulation concerning artificial intelligence. Now, these regulatory processes as one outcome have impacts on access to data and the use of data for scientific purposes. There is no global regulator, there's no global policymaker. How do we address a global coordination on these issues? And that's something we want to raise within the context of Science Summit to ensure that science is data enabled.   00;24;33;21 - 00;25;00;25 When we talk about science capacity building, essentially we are talking about improving the flow of data, access to data, use of data from machine learning and AI and other purposes, and extending that capability globally. And when that can happen, then you will see dramatically improved outcomes in terms of health research at the environment, biodiversity, energy and many, many other areas.   00;25;00;29 - 00;25;44;06 But we're not there yet. That very much is in the future. So we're trying to align the debate around the objective of creating these new innovations with the need for aligning energy policy, energy technology and other information technology around alignment on regulations. That's huge, huge importance. So we see that. We see the opportunity after the United Nations General Assembly to talk to governments, to talk to political leaders, to talk to Balsillie was to talk to diplomats, to talk to regulators, to talk to bureaucrats and show them what this is, how this matters, and very importantly, how they can include optimized policies to support science in future policies at the bloc level, at nation level.   00;25;44;06 - 00;26;13;20 And we have many, many meetings bringing forward scientists to show what they do, what's necessary in terms of government regulation and support to enable. So we're talking about creating the enabling policy and regular Tory environment for more and better science. And funnily enough, we don't say that's more that's about more money. We don't feel that. We don't think that what there is, is more opportunity and a great need for alignment at government and policy level.   00;26;13;23 - 00;26;39;06 And if every country in the world goes it alone in terms of creating regulation and creating policies, then we're looking at extreme fragmentation. There is much, much untapped potential for governments to work together, and that's one reason we're very happy to be working with Oracle, because, you know, from there, you know, as a company and, you know, forgive me if this is too simplistic, but they, they they create these machines that can communicate data.   00;26;39;06 - 00;27;07;29 And this is a this is a vital and vital a vital need globally. And how they do that and future, I think, will point to many, many future opportunities, which is a very important consideration, because with the science summit and at the level of the U.N., there's there's a huge recognition of the need to work with industry players and the importance of working with industry to deliver innovations, because it's not going to be a university center in it.   00;27;07;29 - 00;27;33;27 With the greatest respect to Cork University in Ireland, they're not going to be making the mess that's going to come through a company. So and industry. So this collaboration opportunity between academia, between governments and industry, I think is ripe for transformation, I think has enormous potential to address global challenges. So can you give us kind of a feel for what kind of speakers and sessions can be expected at the summit?   00;27;34;04 - 00;28;02;24 Yes, Michael, we've got a very inclusive approach to the summit, so we're covering a lot of things, but I suppose I would accept that we have a bias towards health on the health research. On the 13th of September, we have an all day plenary on on One Health, which is a perspective that brings together planet people and animal health into a, if you like, a one world view.   00;28;02;27 - 00;28;26;10 We have a lot of amazing speakers from the five continents who will be coming to that meeting. And what we want to do then is this is relatively rare. It's a relatively new area. By that I mean it's a relatively new or a policymaking. So where want to advance policymaking in this area? We want to also promote interdisciplinary research and show how research matters across these three areas because they cannot be addressed in isolation.   00;28;26;12 - 00;28;56;06 And we'd argue at the moment, by and large, that they are. If you look at national funding systems and national priorities and all the rest of it, they look at animal health or they look at human health or they look at biodiversity. But looking at all three I think is vital. That's our that's our flagship session on Wednesday the 13th on the 14th, Thursday the 14th, we're going to focus on on pandemic preparedness and we're going to bring together the leadership from the National Research Foundation in South Africa, from the African Union Commission, from the European Union.   00;28;56;06 - 00;29;33;16 Delighted to have Irene North steps. The director for the People Directorate in Brussels is coming to join us. For three days. We have Professor Cortes at Lucca from the Medical University of Graz, who leads many European Union research initiatives. But he was the main instigator of the European Union's biobanking research infrastructure, of biobanking, of molecular resources. We should infrastructure, which does pretty much as it says on the can, and we're looking to create a UN version of that, if you like, And look at how this capacity for biobanking is going to contribute.   00;29;33;16 - 00;29;57;01 So and pandemic burden, it's very, very important that we also have President Biden's science adviser, Dr. Francis Collins, former director of the and I and the in the United States, Then we will also have representatives from Dr. Sao Victor. So from the U.S. Academy for Medicine, National Academy for Medicine. He'll be presenting the US approach to pandemic preparedness, which is called 100 days Mission.   00;29;57;06 - 00;30;22;17 What you Need to Do in the first hundred Days. We're very excited about that and very, very much looking forward to using that as a template for a global approach. And while there's been a lot of focus on global strategies, which we obviously very much support, we want to take that global strategy approach to the level of action in terms of what capacity is needed, where's that capacity needed, How can the capacity be delivered?   00;30;22;19 - 00;31;09;02 So very much looking forward to pandemic preparedness as a highlight of the summit. Then on Friday, Friday the 15th of September would have a one day plenary on genomics capacity building with a focus on Africa. But the approach will be global, But bring it forward. Will How does the capacity work for pandemic? Sorry for genomics and has been led by global industry in terms of Illumina and it's been led again by data experts, and that really looks at a future for genomics capacity building in Africa, without which we are going to be or Africa is going to be extremely hampered in the development of medicine and related therapies.   00;31;09;04 - 00;31;37;12 So there are three of the sessions. We also have the Obama Foundation having a meeting on the on the 17th of September. We're going to bring philanthropic organizations together, are for lunch on the 15th. We are going to have a number of sessions around the Amazon with the Brazilian Fapesp, the Rio National Research Agency, and they'll be looking at the future of Amazon from the perspective of collaborative research and development and science.   00;31;37;15 - 00;32;06;00 We will be working with a number of legal experts with the law firm Ropes and Gray, who will bring together experts to identify scenarios for an enabling regulatory environment for genomics that's going to take place on the afternoon of the 16th. We are going to have a number of focus days. The government of of government of Ethiopia will be joining us and they'll be presenting how the Ethiopian government presents or approaches the SDGs.   00;32;06;00 - 00;32;27;18 From the point of view of enabling science. We have a similar approach from the government of Ghana. We will have the nice people from Mongolia, the government of Mongolia. They will be presenting a regional approach from the roof of the world, and we would have the same from Nepal, from India, from Japan, from Brazil and many other nations.   00;32;27;23 - 00;32;58;22 And that national approach is very, very important because again, we want to highlight the need for synergies, highlight the similarity between national approaches and then how they can be brought together and benefit from one another. We will also have a presentation from the editor of Nature, Magdalena Skipper at They'll be presenting a what they call a storytelling evening, and that's that's designed to inform and show how science careers evolve.   00;32;58;28 - 00;33;27;05 So so the community can get an understanding of of how that has worked in a number of individuals so very much at look at looking forward to that. I think that personal aspect is is very, very important. And we will be having a number of sessions with with investors how they are approaching investing in science and technology, how that investment can be better aligned between governments, industry, not for profits, philanthropy.   00;33;27;05 - 00;33;50;18 And we're feeling we're seeing that a lot of these organizations have similar objectives. So there's enormous potential to see how they can be more aligned, work together for common objectives and thereby increase possible benefits and outputs. So very much look forward to dose those discussions. In terms of our principal outputs, what we want to do really is three levels.   00;33;50;18 - 00;34;12;01 First is we want to increase participation and collaboration. So we want to bring people together. And one of the main outputs of the science summit last year, researchers discovered each other. They went away and they started collaborating. That wouldn't have happened if they hadn't met at the science. So that's one level. Second level is what our agenda is.   00;34;12;04 - 00;34;44;27 So the United Nations will convene the summit of the future in 2024. So the question we're asking everybody is what should the science agenda for that meeting look like? And we want to compile it. And with the 400 odd sessions we're running, we want to work with them and see how can they contribute to that, What priorities can they put forward and how do they look in terms of a specific objective which the United Nations can support in terms of energy attainment or the post SDG agenda?   00;34;44;29 - 00;35;22;06 And the third element we want to advance is better policy making, make better policies. We will have tennis knocked and Dennis is the chair of the Inter-Parliamentary Union Science Committee. The Inter-Parliamentary Union is a global organization and represents 138 parliaments around the world. This dialog is hugely, hugely important. So we're going to be working with Denis to see how his members so those legislators in those 140 odd countries can incorporate better global ideas into policymaking at a local level.   00;35;22;06 - 00;35;52;29 And I'm talking about I'm talking about Nepal, I'm talking about Ghana, I'm talking about Kenya, I'm talking about many, many countries. And then what we what we hope that that will achieve is real sustained change. And as we move towards the end of this decade, that's going to be hugely, hugely demanding. But I think if we build this global momentum and we drive this cooperation and instill a sense of cooperation among scientists globally, and also we say that, you know, scientists in fact, are policy policymakers.   00;35;52;29 - 00;36;10;12 I don't see this divide between policymakers and scientists. I think scientists have a huge amount to contribute to policymaking. So, in fact, they're the policymakers. They know a lot about health, They know a lot about what policies are needed to deliver better health. And we want to give them a voice. Well, as I mentioned, Oracle will be speaking and participating at the summit.   00;36;10;12 - 00;36;37;01 And you touched on it a little bit. But when you think about the role for industry players, especially technology giants like Oracle and what's needed to pursue the SDGs, we've talked on the show a good bit about the concept of open science and increasing access to scientific data. It feels like big advances in global health can't happen if those developing or lower middle income countries are kept at arm's length from data.   00;36;37;04 - 00;37;00;02 Absolutely, Mike. Absolutely. Very, very well said. And as I've outlined, is that one of the main impediments potentially to this is regulation by advanced nations, which impacts on less developed nations. So I think an industry has a huge role to play in that because, you know, industry and providing the wherewithal to to advance this data exchange. So we very much look to industry leadership.   00;37;00;02 - 00;37;16;20 And I think Oracle is going to be very instrumental there in showing and leading the way in terms of how data is enabled and how data systems can allow access to data use of data, and of course the use of data for machine learning. And I think that's something we need to learn a lot about, particularly in developing nations.   00;37;16;23 - 00;37;35;25 I also think that the United Nations Global Sustainability Report, the latest version of which is available in draft, and I think the final version will be published at the end of this month. Points to a huge role for for industry. My own view is that I think industry need to be much more at the table at this U.N. table.   00;37;35;25 - 00;37;56;24 I'm delighted to see that Oracle is joining us in this quest, because I think we need to build a narrative and I think it'll be for industry are going to be a very credible partner in terms of telling governments what is necessary, what's needed in terms of creating the space for data to do what data needs. And again, in particular in the countries that are going to be challenged in their quest for access to data.   00;37;56;27 - 00;38;33;03 And that presumes that they have the capacity to have the infrastructure. Many don't, but they're going to need to have that and the industry going to be critical in delivering that. And I think that's that's terribly, terribly clear. So that role for industry in delivering, I think, spans the optimization of policy, the optimization of regulation, the deployment of technology, the maintenance and sustainability of that technology, and of course for the advancement of that technology into different areas in its application, particularly in ICT application, in the areas health and energy and the environment, biodiversity, climate and so forth.   00;38;33;06 - 00;38;55;25 And I think this is something that provides a gives me a lot of optimism in future. And I think also almost we're looking at a, if you like, a post, arguably a post regulatory model where where technology will allow us to define the the remit of Data Act access. I don't think we're there yet, but I think this is this is possibly in future.   00;38;55;27 - 00;39;16;01 And again, Oracle and the colleagues from Oracle will be engaging in a number of discussions on the regulatory side, on the technical side, on the access to data side that's going to help the communities understand not necessarily the solution, but at least define the questions. I think define the questions. Then we have a much greater opportunity in obtaining the answers.   00;39;16;03 - 00;39;39;17 Well, also in my intro, I mentioned that you are founder and managing director of ISC Intelligence and Science. Tell us about that endeavor. What does that do? Well, that that mainly is devoted towards building body types, capacity and advising governments on science. Capacity Building that many faces is based around scientific infrastructures. And of course they come in in many, many flavors.   00;39;39;22 - 00;39;59;29 But ours really is around the design of research infrastructures that that tends to be quite a long, competitive, drawn out, complicated process. Of course, for any funding, there is a there is a competitive process. This takes a a number a number of years, very often for an award, then a subsequent number of years for a design phase to be completed.   00;40;00;05 - 00;40;21;02 Before then you move into construction and operation. Our primary focus is on the design phase and we've done that in in Africa. We do it in India, in in North America, Latin America. And one of our main reasons for focusing on this area is because it means the capacity is there to to allow science to do what it does.   00;40;21;02 - 00;40;46;01 I've mentioned the case of the SKA and in Africa there are many others. But I would say hitherto there's been a lot of differentiation between science capacity. And of course this is this is quite understandable. But I think increasingly in future that capacity will be effectively one big data machine. It won't matter what flavor of science you're doing, you're going to be dipping into a common data reserves.   00;40;46;01 - 00;41;23;05 Now, there's some caveats around that, such as a a synchrotron, for example, or a light source. I think these are, as you can imagine, specific unique instruments. But we're looking forward very much to have the director of the Office of Science in the United States, Dr. Esmond Barrett, talk to us about how this can work on a global level and what are the challenges and how the US experience in building these science infrastructures and capacities can then help many, many other countries to to advance towards not net, not necessary do the same, but at least be on a path to access such capacity.   00;41;23;05 - 00;41;52;08 So ESI has been very, very involved in that and also involved in the regulatory aspects of the impact of updated regulation on science is something we're very exercised about. If we feel that the scientific community historically, by which I mean maybe over the last 15 years have been very slow to understand the implications of regulation of science, but equally the regulatory bodies at national level, equally have been very slow to understand the impacts of science because their primary concerns are not science.   00;41;52;13 - 00;42;23;27 The primary concerns are as they see them is the protection of individual data, etc., etc., etc. and that's very worthy and noble. But then once you pull the thread, you see that that has aspects and implications for scientific endeavor. So we're working in that interface, ensuring or trying to ensure or trying to increase respective awareness and visibility. And now this is has a very sharp focus in the advent of a EIA, the Artificial Intelligence Act in the European Union, which will be defining for reasons we mentioned earlier.   00;42;23;27 - 00;42;43;12 Also, we are very active in that space and we're very particularly active and, and how this seen, how this impacts on less developed nations. Well, Declan, again, we appreciate you being on the show today. If people wanted to learn more about the science Summit or ISC intelligence and science, how can they do that? Main ways. The website for the Science Summit is Science Summit.   00;42;43;15 - 00;45;13;24 It is sciencesummitunga.com the company website is ISC intelligence dot com and then you'll find the usual links to Twitter and all the rest there. Very good. We've got it. And if you listen are are interested in how Oracle can simplify and accelerate your own scientific research. Just take a look at Oracle dot com slash research and see what you think and of course join us again next time for research and action.

Alaina Percival is the Co-Founder and CEO of Women Who Code, with a mission to empower diverse women to excel in technology careers. Alaina delves into the origin and mission of Women Who Code, highlighting its community building, free technical events, and collaboration with companies to promote diversity in hiring. Victoria adds her personal experience with the organization, emphasizing its positive impact on her career. They discuss the challenges faced while expanding Women Who Code, including the need for systems and processes to manage growth. Alaina recounts stories of discrimination faced by women in tech and stresses the need for continued support and encouragement. The conversation also touches on the financial benefits of diversity and the alignment of Valor Ventures with Women Who Code's values. This discussion offers a detailed look into the women in tech movement, the importance of community, and the drive to create a more equitable industry. It serves as a reflection on both the strides made in fostering diversity and the work still needed to create a truly inclusive technology field. __ Women Who Code (https://www.womenwhocode.com/) Join the Women Who Code Slack! (https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSctj9HJr-5yadDbKYygBYBfNUWmjgODlkp8lgLou26AedIkuQ/viewform) Women Who Code Podcast (https://www.womenwhocode.com/podcast) Follow Women Who Code on Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/womenwhocode), LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/women-who-code/), Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/womenwhocode/), GitHub (https://github.com/WomenWhoCode), Twitter (https://twitter.com/WomenWhoCode), or YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/c/WomenWhoCodeGlobal?themeRefresh=1) Follow Alaina Percival on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/alainapercival/) or Twitter (https://twitter.com/alaina). Follow thoughtbot on Twitter (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: WILL: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry. VICTORIA: And I'm your other host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Alaina Percival, Venture Partner at Valor Ventures and Co-Founder and CEO of Women Who Code, with a mission to empower diverse women to excel in technology careers. Alaina, thank you for joining us. ALAINA: Thank you so much for having me. I'm thrilled to be here. VICTORIA: I'm thrilled to have you as well. I reached out. As you know, I was previously a Director of Women Who Code D.C. and helped to organize our DevOps and cloud series when I lived there. And it really had a huge impact on my career. So, I'm just super psyched to talk to you today. What's going on in your world, Alaina? ALAINA: So, in addition to my full-time job of working with Women Who Code, I'm also a mom of two young children, and so they're currently three and five. And so, it's summer. We've got summer camp. Every week is a different program with different details and things that you have to read and stay up on. It's a lot of additional project management added on over the summer. I'm looking forward to getting back to the school year, where I can kind of focus on just one role. WILL: That's amazing. And I can totally relate because I have a four, a three, and a one-year-old. Yes, it's a different story when you have to, like you said, project manage around them. So, that's amazing that you're wearing so many hats, and you're doing that. Hats off to you. ALAINA: Same to you. [laughter] WILL: Victoria, what about you? What's going on in your world? VICTORIA: Well, it is summertime at the beach, so all the kids are out. [laughs] It's busy. But that means that you know, the weather is warming up. It's tempting to try to go surfing again, so we'll see if that ends up happening anytime soon. But no, I'm hanging out. I'm local. I'm kind of done traveling for a little bit, so not until I go out to Outer Banks to visit my baby niece and nephew in August. So that's where I'm at right now. I'm kind of hunkered in trying to survive without air conditioning here and get through the summer. [laughs] WILL: You don't have AC? VICTORIA: I do not. Yeah, there's a lot of houses around here just never were built with it. I have heat, but I have no air conditioning. ALAINA: Are you being hit with the heat wave that's happening? VICTORIA: Yes. But it's still very mild. We're spoiled here for sure on weather. WILL: [laughs] VICTORIA: It's like 77, and I'm like, ugh, it's so hot. [laughs] WILL: I'm in Florida, and it amazes me. So, I got up early, around 7:00 o'clock, to go out for a run, and it's, like, 87 degrees. And it feels like almost 100 at 7:00 a.m. And I'm like -- VICTORIA: Oof. WILL: How? [laughs] Like, the sun is barely out, and it's already reaching 100. So yeah. ALAINA: I feel you. I'm in Atlanta. Yesterday, I had an in-person meeting. Typically, we're entirely remote. So, I was wearing real pants [laughs], and it was a hard day. We're not quite as hot as Florida. We are in the low 90s. But yeah, this weather is for real. WILL: Yes. [laughter] VICTORIA: That is the...yeah, working in person again in a hot climate. [laughs] I forgot the challenges of that of, like, trying to navigate life while having to be fully clothed is difficult in that kind of weather. So, I'm glad. I hope you all find some ways to stay cool and to entertain your children [laughs] so that you have some sanity and can get through the summer. I've also been really interested in the European model of just taking five weeks off in the summer. Doesn't that sound nice? WILL: Yes. [laughs] ALAINA: Yeah. I started my career off in Germany. I worked for Puma. Their headquarters is right outside of Nuremberg in a town called Herzogenaurach. And people really do take the whole month off August. And, in fact, you would even separate out the salaries. So, you got something called urlaubsgeld, which was vacation money. So, you would get kind of a little bonus going into August, and then everybody would take off. So, I agree with you. We should be doing that. VICTORIA: Yeah, we should be doing that. And I'm so excited. Maybe we can segue into, like, your background and how you got started. How did you go from there to founding Women Who Code? ALAINA: Yeah, so after working at Puma, I somewhat came back to the United States. I did a dual degree program, an MBA where I was studying between Atlanta, so I could get back in the United States, spend some time with my family, and then also the Sorbonne in Paris. And I did an MBA and a degree in organizational management, Master's in organizational management. Then I went to work for really small ones, performance wear company. And that was more, like, a startup because you really had to think outside of the box. You know, you're a small $10 million a year company, and Nike and Mizuno, you know, these big companies are your competitors. So, I had the opportunity to move out to San Francisco. It was one of the cities that was always on my list of, hey, if you get a chance to do it, go for it. And I did. So, I moved out there, and I kind of hit a bit of a wall with my career, an unexpected wall because up until that point, I had just this really, you know, successful early career. I got out there, and they're, like, Puma. You know, you haven't worked for Microsoft, or Twitter, or Facebook, or Google. Who are you? So, I started learning to code just to transition my skill set to help me understand the culture and the language and just getting more involved in the tech community. And I was still struggling a little bit in figuring out my transition pathway and got more and more involved with Women Who Code and started, you know, spending my nights and weekends. And finally, I was at a small startup that had gotten acquired, so I had my official tech credibility. And I went to work for one of the top technical recruiting firms, executive recruiting firms in the Bay Area, as their head of developer outreach. And I largely chose that role because they were allowing me to run their philanthropic arm, and I focused that around supporting underrepresented communities, you know, get a leg up in the tech community. And then, while I was there, I was working with CTOs, vice presidents of engineering, directors of engineering on a day-to-day basis. And I started learning what they were doing in their career to help develop and cultivate the success that they were having, and I started bringing that knowledge and programming into Women Who Code. And that's where our mission around seeing diverse women excel in technology careers came about is, you know, that piece of retaining and seeing diverse women excelling was an area that wasn't really the focus at the time. And I feel like it sounds funny now because it's such a big piece of conversation. But that was the beginning. VICTORIA: Yeah, it's so interesting that your experience from being in a startup and then how you moved up into being really involved in the hiring and the process of how women...how anyone would actually, like, move up in their career led you to have that background to found Women Who Code. And for people who maybe don't know, [laughs] no, I certainly know what it is. Can you talk a little bit more about what it offers to women and what it offers to companies who are looking to hire diverse women? ALAINA: For individuals, we are the largest and most active community of diverse technologists. We have close to 350,000 members. We're serving members across 147 countries. And we're producing close to 2,000 free technical events every single year, so that's about an average of 5 per day. Once those events take place, if you happen to miss them if you happen to not be in a location where they're having them in person, we're putting a lot of that on our YouTube channel. So, you can go back when you have time, when you're available, still invest in yourself and learn some of these technical and career-related skills. You can also, you know, when you think about, say, the 2,000 talks that are being delivered at Women Who Code, the majority of them are being led by and delivered by diverse technologists. So, we're creating role models and helping people who are on their career path have a sense of belonging, see a pathway to success. People who are thinking about the career path see themselves represented as thought leaders, as leaders in the tech industry. And that sense of belonging, that sense of drive, is just so important to be able to continue on in your career. But we work with companies. So, Women Who Code is dedicated to accessibility. All of our programming is free or scholarship accessible. And so, what we do is we work with companies, and we do this for two reasons: for programmatic reasons. Because we know that if companies develop strong diversity, equity, and inclusion, and belonging practices, that we will reach our mission and vision so much faster than if we work with every individual in the world. But it also creates an opportunity for us to be able to support the community. So, we work with companies to sponsor Women Who Code to donate to support Women Who Code's programming. We have our first-ever walk coming up, so a walk, run, roll called Women Who Code to the Finish Line. And we're going to be having that in September of this year. And that's going to be an opportunity for the stakeholders. You know, often, people who aren't in our community but absolutely support us say, "How can we help?" And so, companies can form teams and go and walk, run, roll to change the face of the tech industry. Right now, we're also in a position where the tech industry has been doing a lot of layoffs, so there's a lot of instability. And so, when that happens, our programming thrives. So, people are coming to our events in high numbers. People are participating in our programming. People are visiting our job board. It's the time when companies are stepping back and pulling back on their funding and things like that. So, I just encourage every single company to...if you have a great technical job open, make sure you're sharing it with the Women Who Code community because we have incredible technologists. They deserve access to companies that are willing to support them and the best roles that are available in the industry today. WILL: Alaina, I just want to honestly and truly say this, what you're doing is amazing. Having a background in nonprofit, over 140 companies, over 300,000 in your membership, and it's an international nonprofit. It's truly amazing what you're doing and helping women find their role and help them become better. I'm truly just blown away by, you know, you started in September 2011, so you're coming up on 12 years this year. And just 12 years as a nonprofit and doing this, share with us how was it received at the very beginning? Because I feel like that was a different time that we're in right now. ALAINA: Yeah, it started off as a meetup, just a community group in San Francisco. And it was incredible. It felt like our little secret. And we were spending time together. We were learning. We were building connections. And just it was this incredible community. And then, the world started talking about, hey, we need to teach girls to code. We need to teach women to code. And we were this community of people in the industry. Our average age at Women Who Code is 30, so 50% of our members are currently in technical roles. So, we had this moment of, hey, we need to elevate the voice of those who are in the industry right now, alongside teaching girls to code and teaching women to code. Because if you miss out on that, it actually becomes a threat to the women in the industry who, every time you hear "Teach women to code," you're saying she doesn't already know how to do it. And we had so many people in our community who already did and already had to kind of prove themselves on a regular basis or constantly underestimated. In the early years, a Women Who Code leader who told me that she was managing a booth at a conference, and everyone was an engineer except for one recruiter, and the recruiter's name was Brian. Someone walked up to her and said, "Are you Brian?" Because it was easier to imagine that her name was Brian than that she was one of the engineers at the table. And so, kind of going through this, we said, hey, we need to elevate our voices. We need to elevate the needs of women in the industry. And it feels being in it day by day, that nothing's happening. But when you look back over 13-15 years, you see that parental leave policies have improved significantly, that we see numbers in leadership going up across the board, that it's part of the conversation that relatively standard and tech companies to have DEI roles within the organization, within the people team. And so, these are not enough. It's just the beginning. But it is a lot that's taken place over the past 10 to 15 years. VICTORIA: I agree. And I can relate as someone who was a project manager working in a technology space. Was it back in, like, 2013 or something? And you'd go to tech meetups, and most likely, I would be the only woman there. [laughs] But then, with Women Who Code, my friend invited me to go to a Ruby event, and it was, you know, all women. [laughs]. There was a woman who was even giving the instruction. And so, that was just a really cool feeling after having been out networking and feeling kind of isolated to really find a lot of people who are similar to you. And I remember part of the narrative at that time when we were talking about increasing inclusion and diversity in technology; there was a narrative that, well, there just aren't as many women in tech. And being a part of Women Who Code, I could be able to, like, answer back to say, "Well, there actually is a lot of women in tech." And it's the bigger problem that women would get started because they're interested in the industry and having good careers, but then they would fall out midway. So, there just wasn't enough progression in their careers. There wasn't enough support on the parental leave side, or there just wasn't enough community to keep people interested, like, when you're the only one. And many of our members they were the only women in their company, and then Women Who Code was where they found people they could really connect with. So, I just think it's interesting that it solves a particular problem where we would have women who are just interested in learning to code who would come to our events. And then, we had women who were actively coding in their jobs and teaching others in these leadership roles within the community to advance their own careers. And that's certainly what I did, and how I broke into executive leadership was, like, I'm a director at Women Who Code and I've got all this other leadership experience. And I'm bringing that network with me. It really increases your value to employers and demonstrates your leadership abilities. ALAINA: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. The program which we kind of fell into, it's our volunteers, is our program that I'm actually most proud of at Women Who Code. And it's probably because I get to know our volunteers because I know so many people's lives and careers are impacted by our programming. But that leadership development, that practice-based leadership that our volunteers are able to obtain, the doors that get open, and just like you said, it opened doors. And I remember it hit me when one of our volunteers told me she was interviewing with SpaceX. And one of the reasons they said they were excited to talk to her was because of her Women Who Code leadership experience. And I just thought to myself, we're doing something right. [laughs] VICTORIA: Yeah, absolutely. And I think maybe part of Will's question before, too, is, like, did it always feel like you were doing something right? Or did it all just come together naturally? Or what kind of bumps did you initially hit when you were getting things off the ground? ALAINA: Yeah. When we first got started and realized, hey, we need to make Women Who Code more accessible, we were doing everything in a very manual way. We needed to adapt to building systems and processes, and that's not the fun part of running a volunteer organization. And when you're moving so fast, it means slowing things down a little bit to be able to make sure that you can do things better, more consistently, more efficiently, but it's so critical. And so, I would say we kind of launched outside of the Bay Area in a couple of cities. And it just snowballed until we expanded into 20 to 40 more cities within probably a year outside of that. And we just really needed to catch up on creating systems and processes, which is not beautiful at all, but it's an important part of running a real business, a real company. WILL: That's amazing. First off, I just want to say I am so sorry that the world we live in looks down upon women or anybody. So, I'm just so sorry that, like, the story you said about Brian, asking the lady that. I feel like that's so disrespectful. I am so sorry if you ever got treated that way or anything like that. And so, I was going to ask this question, and then I kind of answered it. But the question was, do you think women are at a place to where kind of equal in tech? And I kind of answered my own question and said, "No." And so, I want to reframe it. What do you think it will take to continue to help the women get to that level of where it should be? ALAINA: It's going to take a lot of things. But the fastest and easiest way to create more equality for women and girls in the tech industry is by investing and supporting the incredible talent that is in the industry today. We need them to thrive. We need them to stay in their careers. We need them to become leaders with power and influence to create more equity in the industry so that when future generations are coming in, they're coming into an industry that is less broken for them, that is more welcoming, that shows and demonstrates more opportunity. This is one of the most exciting and innovative industries to be a part of. So many things are being shaped and built for the first time that are systems that are going to be the foundations for years or centuries to come. And so, it's more important now than ever for us to be thinking about bringing equity into that so we're not dealing with technical debt, where we're starting from a system that has more equality to it. VICTORIA: I really appreciate that perspective. And I'm curious how that relates to your work at Valor Ventures as well. ALAINA: Valor Ventures is very aligned with the values of Women Who Code, which is why I chose it. I am passionate about creating more equality and opportunity for diverse individuals to thrive and succeed in general but via the tech industry. And so, when I move into focusing on entrepreneurs and focusing on seeing diverse entrepreneurs succeed in building thriving organizations, I see an opportunity to have someone who will be thinking earlier about the policies and the practices that are going to build more equitable teams, products that are really for all of their users. VICTORIA: I think that's a great mindset. And it reminds me that when we talked about, like, the importance of diversity, and equity, and inclusion, that it's not purely a moral thing, even though morally we know we want to support and be inclusive, but that it's also good business strategy [laughs], just by the value of having different perspectives and different types of people, and then being able to have your products be accessible for a diverse group as well, right? ALAINA: Yeah, the data shows teams that are diverse are smarter. Companies that have women represented in leadership they have a stronger ROI. There's business reason behind it. There's certainly a social-moral reason that it just should take place. But, you know, if you need to come back to your shareholders or your investors, there's financial data around it. WILL: Yeah, I totally agree on all that, like, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. MID-ROLL AD: Now that you have funding, it's time to design, build, and ship the most impactful MVP that wows customers now and can scale in the future. thoughtbot Liftoff brings you the most reliable cross-functional team of product experts to mitigate risk and set you up for long-term success. As your trusted, experienced technical partner, we'll help launch your new product and guide you into a future-forward business that takes advantage of today's new technologies and agile best practices. Make the right decisions for tomorrow today. Get in touch at thoughtbot.com/liftoff. WILL: What have you seen hold back women in this space? And the reason I'm asking this question is because there are some biases out there, and, at times, we don't even realize it. For example, I know we have parental leave. And before I had kids, I didn't understand parental leave at all. But then, now that I have kids, I'm like, oh, it is not even close to being enough time during that time, you know, four or five hours of sleep at night, just all those things. So, in your experience, what have you seen? And hopefully, we can use this as a learning opportunity for anybody that just may be blind to it. What have you seen that kind of holds it back? ALAINA: That's holding back, like, implementing specific policies and practices or? WILL: Yes, holding back the policies, or maybe women not being as prevalent in tech roles any of those areas. ALAINA: So, sort of two different approaches with that is I'm optimistic. I think most companies, yes, they care about the bottom line, but they want to be doing the right thing if it's easy. Leaders like me we need to put pressure on companies making better decisions. But also, industry leaders and organizations out there need to be able to make it easier for companies to make the decisions that are going to create more equity inside of their organization. I know that's taking the responsibility off of them a little bit. But companies won't make commitments. They won't do the hard things if they don't know how to do it. And so, the easier that we can make it for them to make the right decision, the more likely they are to make the right decision. VICTORIA: I think that people want to do the right thing if it's easy is a really succinct way to explain a lot of, like, social and moral [laughs] issues right now, right? Most people generally want to do the right thing, but it can be complex. I'm curious about, speaking of complexity, for Women Who Code, going through, you know, being an organization that was built around in-person events, and then having COVID happen, so, like, what were some of the challenges of the last few years and changes that you experienced along the way? ALAINA: Yeah, when COVID hit, that was a big moment for the whole world. It was certainly really hard for organizations that rely on in-person activities. You know, our major conference supplied a third of our operating revenue. Our members were going to, you know, close to 2,000 in-person events. And so, we had to adapt just like everyone else. The organizations and the companies that adapted were the ones that thrived. So, we had to completely retrain all of our volunteers from doing in-person events to be able to create digital events for our community. We had to figure out how to produce major events, and conferences, and hackathons and do it in a remote way. And then, of course, there's the day-to-day that absolutely everyone had, and that was, you know, just your team went from meeting in person to everyone being remote. And some of the great things that came out about that is we were serving members in about 26 countries and about 80 cities, and now we serve members in 147 countries. It just made it accessible that if you don't happen to be in a location where an event is happening and you also don't happen to have childcare, be able to participate, that you are still able to participate in an online setting. And then, what we saw with being able to start moving more of, you know, those talks that were being delivered to our YouTube channel, it then became even more accessible. People spent about five years of life watching our YouTube trainings, and that's time people are investing in themselves. And when I say they did it, and I'm talking about in 2022. So, our YouTube channel, our trainings, they continue to grow, and then our online events continue to happen. But luckily, now we are able to start going back in person. And it's, again, just so amazing to be able to see the people you haven't seen in a long time, feel that feeling that is just a little bit different for an in-person event. WILL: That's amazing. So, from, say, 2019, 2020 to now, it went from 80 countries to over 140, just because of the pivot to go more, like, YouTube and tech. Is that kind of what you're saying about the growth of it? ALAINA: Yeah, so about 80 cities, so about 25 countries to serving members in 147 countries. WILL: That's amazing. ALAINA: Yeah, a tremendous amount of growth and creating accessibility around the globe. Previously, we were really only able to focus on tech hubs that had an ecosystem to support it. But, you know, just because you're from a rural area of your state or from a country in the Global South, you still deserve access to this incredible community and all of the free accessible programming that Women Who Code has to offer. When we have a conference, we have people from 88 countries participating. And when you sign into the networking session, you're going to hop on the phone with someone from Nigeria, someone from Bangladesh, someone from your same city, and it's just such an incredible experience to be able to have that global focus and reach. WILL: Wow, that is so amazing. So, let's talk about right now. What does your next milestone look like, you know, in the next six months or next year? What does that look like for you? ALAINA: As I mentioned before, one of the big challenges we've had this year is our programming is going so, so well, but our funding has pulled back a little bit. And so, we're working to diversify our revenue strategy a little bit and have a traditional nonprofit walk that we've never done before. And it's a remote walk, so anyone all over the world can participate just like you can with our digital events. But this has been something new for us. Because when we went through it during COVID, again, you know, you'd get on the call with all of your partners. You know, the world is going through something, and you kind of say, oh yeah, we're in it together. But you don't see the grace that you saw in 2020 and sort of the camaraderie, and we're in this together, and we're going to give you space and support you, you know, in every way that we can that, you know, is just really missing this time around. You know, we have members who absolutely need support in their careers right now. And so, it's navigating through something different. VICTORIA: Yeah. And I guess talking more about inclusivity, like, we have all this free content, and it is Women Who Code. But I remember when I was an organizer, I had a few people ask me, "Well if I'm a man, can I come to your event?" And I was like, "Yes, it's open to everyone," right? Like, it's promoting women, and it's about women growing in their careers. And certainly, if that's not also your intention with attending the event, you should keep that in mind and make sure you're leaving space for other people. But I also really appreciated that it's open for everyone and that it's open for everyone who is in the women umbrella, and being intentional about that, and that it's inclusive of everyone who relates to being a woman, right? ALAINA: Yeah. Women Who Code welcomes all genders. We, you know, really struggle with our name from a brand perspective because it isn't as inclusive as we'd like it to be. So, actually, after we say our name, we try not to repeat the word women anywhere else. From the beginning, been dedicated to having an open, accessible community. But we definitely require, you know, that you are following our code of conduct, that you're there for the intended purpose of the event. And we want to make sure that we're protecting our community. VICTORIA: Well, I really appreciate that. And I appreciate...it sounds like a value organization that I'm with. I always look for those things that that's what we're really promoting. There's been so many changes that have happened with Women Who Code and in your career. If you could go back in time and give yourself some advice when you were first getting started, what would you tell yourself? ALAINA: If I was going back and thinking about what I would tell myself in the beginning, I'd probably tell myself to focus on data sooner. Coming from the history of being a meetup group to transitioning to being a global nonprofit, we dragged our feet around focusing on data impact, and really, it's because we're constantly doing so much programming. We're always doing so many things, and anything you add on is an extra thing to do. And so, I would say focus on the data much sooner. VICTORIA: I can speak to there being a lot of events. I remember back in the heyday in D.C., it was, like, algorithms on Tuesdays and Ruby on Thursdays, and then next week, it would be DevOps. And there was just always something going on. And I thought that was so cool. And I really appreciate just really everyone who is involved in putting on those programs. I really want to emphasize, too, like, the value for companies working with Women Who Code. And what do they get out of the partnership, and how can they really engage with the community? ALAINA: Yeah. So, companies that work with us, it's a partnership. They are there to support the community, and that's what they have to do to really develop trust. And we're going to make sure that we're guiding them in that process. So, if we see an opportunity for them to engage in a more authentic way, we're going to point that out. But companies are often hiring from our community; that's one of the big reasons, not just through our job board because our members are unicorns. They're diverse technologists, and everyone wants to hire them. And so, you can just say, "Hey, come work for me." But really, they want you to explain who's on the team? What are the exciting projects, and what are the exciting technologies that your company is building? So that they can actually identify that your company is an organization that they would want to work for before just applying for a job. And that's what a lot of our partnership creates space for. So, maybe getting an opportunity to join our podcast and tell the story and get to know some of the diverse leadership team or diverse engineering team, learn about some of your, like, commitment to DEI and things like that. Because when a senior engineer receives multiple job outreaches, they're going to respond to the one that they've heard of, that they already know is a good company, that they know is supporting and investing in building equity into the tech ecosystem. That's going to go a long way in them deciding to reply. WILL: That's awesome. Earlier, you mentioned being inclusive of all the members. I think I know the answer, but I just want to double-check. If I want to volunteer, am I able to volunteer at Women Who Code? ALAINA: Yes, absolutely. If you visit our website...and we just updated our website, so I encourage everyone to go visit womenwhocode.com today. It's looking different than it has over the past five years. There's a sign-up to volunteer. You would be absolutely welcome, Will. WILL: Awesome. And, as a volunteer, what would that look like? What could I get involved in? What areas? ALAINA: You could decide to be a speaker. You could apply to be a network leader. You could become a lead in a particular technology area. We have six technical tracks. Our tracks are cloud, data science, Python, mobile. When [inaudible 32:53] hears about it, we will have emerging technologies track that was expanded from our blockchain community this year. And then, we also have a career track as well. So, you can become a lead focused on one of those particular areas in our digital communities. You can get engaged with the Women Who Code community in many different ways. We also have some really cool programs like mentor me and buddy system, so getting involved in those. Building long-form connections or long-time connections with individuals in the community really helps to create a sense of belonging and start to build trust and an opportunity to exchange knowledge. VICTORIA: I always really appreciated people who were, like, "Do you need a space to host your meetup?" Or "Do you want us to buy you pizza for your meetup?" [laughs] Those are very easy ways to engage. And it's true that the membership does see and pay attention to, like, who is regularly getting involved in committing to this, and it makes a difference in your brand and reputation. ALAINA: Absolutely. The companies that work with us absolutely hire from the Women Who Code community. I'll give two examples. So, one of the most exciting examples was we had an event at a company, and they sort of were connecting in an authentic way, not, like, an interview way, but they essentially were doing an early interview with people who were there. And so I remember that it took place on Tuesday, and they had a job offer on Friday at the company that they were at. So, they were just able to move so quickly and hire someone from our community. And then, ages ago, Snapchat was at our first-ever conference, and they had hired four or six people at that event. And it was just so cool to see that we're not a recruiting agency, so we really just rely on either individuals or companies to tell us when they have these amazing career outcomes. So, every time we hear about it, it's always exciting to me. VICTORIA: That's super cool. And I wonder, what is the thing you're most excited about coming up for Women Who Code this year? ALAINA: We have CONNECT Asia taking place later on this year, and so that's our major technical conference with a focus in the Asia market. It's going to be just really, really exciting. We haven't had one since pre-COVID. It's still going to be a remote event. We had CONNECT LATAM, so our first-ever conference focused on Latin America last year. And this year, it's focused on Asia. So, it's really exciting to get back and provide some support to our regional audiences and really showcase some of the incredible talent and leadership coming out of those regions. WILL: That's amazing. So, the question I have for you, and it's easy to assume this question, but I want to hear from you because I know you talked about, at the beginning, how it was when you started the nonprofit. But what is the wind in your sails? Like, what keeps you motivated and going? It sounds like it's an easy answer, but just from your heart, what motivates you? ALAINA: Oh, it is absolutely the stories that I hear, like I said, especially from our volunteers. So, the Mexico City volunteer who, in under a year, told me her salary increased 200%. The director from Toronto, you know, when she stepped up, was an individual contributor, and under one year, she made it to director level, and today she's a vice president. So, when I think of the career impacts that are taking place for our members, and every single time I hear about it, it drives me to wake up. It drives me to work harder. It drives me to deliver better program and just makes me completely connected to what we do as an organization. VICTORIA: What a great benefit. And for myself, personally, it absolutely has been a factor in the last, like, two jobs I've gotten. [laughs] They're like, "Oh, you are a director at Women Who Code? That's so interesting." So, I really appreciate everything that you've done and happy to be a part of that. And my personal network, I know many women who have been through that and benefited immensely from having that networking community. And really, even just being able to see yourself and know that you belong in the industry, I think, is really, really important. ALAINA: I'm sure I'm going to be telling your story the next time someone asks me. [laughter] VICTORIA: That's great. No, please do. And let's see; we're wrapping up at the end of our time here. Is there anything else that you would like to promote? ALAINA: Yeah, please visit womenwhocode.com. If you have technical jobs available, please post them to the Women Who Code job board. Again, it's just womenwhocode.com/jobs. Join our community. Check out our amazing, new, beautiful website, and follow us on social media @WomenWhoCode. VICTORIA: Love that. Thank you so much for joining us today. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, you can email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. WILL: And you can find me @will23larry. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thank you for listening. See you next time. ANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com. Special Guest: Alaina Percival.

In this E-Commerce Masterclass episode, Will will teach you How to Build Sustainable Passive Income Streams. Ascend Ecom is a logistics company, wholesale distributor, and an e-commerce investment management company baked into one powerful organization.  Based in Los Angeles, CA, and Dallas, Texas, with a mission to increase access to the 5 trillion dollar e-commerce market for investors. We do all the work. You get all the ownership. Join 500+ profitable clients and let us build you a passive income-driving business on Amazon & Walmart that starts generating sales for you in less than 120 days. And within 24–36 months, you can expect to own a long-term and sustainable e-commerce business Schedule a free consultation with the Ascend Ecom team to get started today! In this episode, we discuss the following with Will: How to build sustainable passive income streams using outsourced e-commerce Increasing revenue streams no matter your current wealth Entrepreneur culture and startups Data-driven trend forecasting for e-commerce DID YOU KNOW? AD Break: Grab all your ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠FAMOLOGY luxury lounge & sleepwear for the whole family⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ AD Break #2: ⁠⁠Are you looking for the best wedding planning apps for couples or event planners? Download Ahavaplan now! Resources: Schedule a ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠strategy meeting with Favour Obasi-ike today⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and let's get your marketing plan started correctly at your earliest convenience. Click ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ for more information ℹ️ More Resources: SEO Newsfeed: ⁠⁠⁠Read our monthly newsletters to stay updated with SEO and marketing in 2023.⁠⁠⁠ Listen to the ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠We Don't PLAY podcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠wedontplaypodcast.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Connect with Favour Obasi-ike ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://zaap.bio/flaevbeatz⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Rate this Podcast: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://ratethispodcast.com/wedontplay⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Visit our Official Website for your Digital Marketing & SEO needs⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.playinc.online⁠⁠⁠ --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/wedontplay/message

This week is an episode… inside of an episode! Nikki recently had the opportunity to be a guest on Will Beck's podcast, Pillow Talk with Pillow Cube. You may remember Will Beck on episode 55 of The Know who spoke so bravely about surviving the Columbine massacre. This time, Nikki is the one being interviewed. Will and Nikki talk about life, suffering, what it's like being a coach's wife, and so much more. Nikki and Will discuss some fun questions like what is their favorite movie and who is their favorite musician. They also delve into some more serious topics such as suffering, what it means to define yourself, how to cope in difficult situations, and so much more. This episode is the perfect mix of light-hearted banter and deep conversation. Tune in to hear Nikki answer tons of questions asked by Will Beck! You don't want to miss it! Here is a sneak peek of some of the questions asked by Will: How do you define yourself? What's Your Favorite Movie? Do you feel like society dictates what you need to be? What is the best part of being an NBA coach's wife? Why did you want to get into podcasting? When you do your podcast, how are you trying to influence people? What does being successful look like to you? In this episode… Sleep habits Influences of society Self-awareness What it's like being the wife of an NBA coach Becoming a better person Suffering Beautiful souls being born Refinement Anger and resentment Who is influencing you Being conscious of who is in your life Shared experiences Being intentional Happiness and peace of mind Connecting to your higher power “There is good and bad that comes from suffering. It is such an interesting balance. When I think about my life, I think about the bad things I went through and how those have made me who I am.” “I became myself by trying to be everything else.” “There were so many years I tried to define myself, and heard something the other day where the message from God is simply, ‘I AM.'” “Even saying ‘I am' gives me goosebumps because I am not one thing. I am ALL of the things. I am everything. And I am nothing. All at the same time.” “I have intentionally been trying to move away from what defines me.” “When I live in my truth, I know I am helping other people.” “When you think of other people first, you will be happier. That is the balance in life. I need to focus on myself and others.” - will beck --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/nikki-spo/support

Patrick answers questions about purgatory, praying for those in hell, witchcraft, annulments, and the nature of evil Sarah –My father-in-law is getting married for the sixth time. How do I talk to my young kids about this? Rod - Why do we pay the price of purgatory if Jesus died on the cross? Dawn - Can we pray for someone who might be in hell? Jennifer - How can I be teacher and deal with this transgender agenda my school has adopted? Connie – Question about the dangers of witchcraft Barbara – I was abused as a child and I'm not sure if I should have confessed that? If I was the victim, was that a sin for me? Jim - What is your answer for natural evil like earthquakes? Mark – Can I start dating before my annulment has started? Will - How do Protestants justify “Upon this rock I build the Church?”

In this podcast, Neale Donald Walsch, author of the Conversations With God series and modern-day spiritual messenger and advisor, joins host Steve Farrell for a conversation on “Elevating Conscious Living,” including what that is, how we do it, and how it can change Humanity's future. In this podcast you will learn about… God's Desire vs. God's Will How there is no better time than now for change Personal Evolution leading to collective Evolution Being the “Source” The power of radical Empathy And much more… ***Note: this is a special rebroadcast and any websites, links, programs, or events mentioned may no longer be active (or dates may have been changed). Thank you!*** Learn more about Humanity Stream+, a blooming spiritual community that combines the best transformational education in the world with real connections to fellow students in Conscious Living around the globe. A Stream+ subscription also provides you with unique opportunities to speak with influential thought leaders and the ability to give back to the worldwide community through our One-for-One program that gifts subscriptions to under-served individuals. Explore Humanity's Team and the timeless truth that We Are All One.  Learn more about the Humanity's Team free education programs.

Kate from the Ignorance Was Bliss podcast joins the show this week for Book Club! We are talking about the second book in the How to Howl at the Moon series by Eli Easton. Will "How to Walk Like A Man" be everything the Kate's are expecting from a gay shifter romance? Or will it be gone with the dogs? Follow Kate and Ignorance Was Bliss https://linktr.ee/iwbpodcast  

Your questions can get answered live during my next stream by doing the following:1- Wait until after the stream begins. 2- Post a clear, concise question in the live chat with a "Q" at the beginning. How to understand the Old Testament law (Part 1):https://youtu.be/qoGKJEENngc How to understand the Old Testament law (Part 2):https://youtu.be/Qdbg5Yj8040 "How correct is Kenneth Copeland?" (This is the teaching on prayer in faith that is answered with a “no” and how to reconcile that with Jesus saying that if we believed we would have what we asked.) https://youtu.be/VvA5ZWDSdmo This is the “Battle for the Next Generation” apologetics conference I’m speaking at in Palm Springs, CA on February 25-26 of 2022. You can watch the livestream with half off with this promo code: "WINGER10" (only $10) http://desertapologetics.com Here's my website with a new clip search feature for finding exactly where in a video a particular issue is addressed. https://BibleThinker.org 1. 0:33 {About “Binding and Loosing”} In Matthew 16: 19, what does the Bible mean in terms of "binding" and "loosing," and how do we rightly understand and apply that concept today?2. 25:28 {Giving to Different Ministries} If I don't feel edified by the watered-down milk preaching at my local church, it is wrong to give less money to the local church and more money to online ministries that I spend hours listening to? 3. 28:50 {Should we “Cut Someone Off” in Life?} How do I know if I am doing the right thing by cutting off a very toxic family member? I still pray for him, but I think he is dangerous and unbalanced and he refuses to get help.4. 31:32 {Defending the Trinity} What are your thoughts on the argument against the Trinity that points out the lack of a Trinitarian controversy (like that of Nicaea) in the time of Acts and the writing of the New Testament?5. 33:36 {About False Prophets} How should we interpret Deuteronomy 13:6-9? Part of chapter is often used on Mormons for Joseph Smith being a false prophet...but if rejecting a false prophet is required, would it follow that this is required, too? This chapter - all or nothing?6. 38:38 {“Being the Light” in Difficult Situations} As a new believer, I feel I won’t be able to go to my sister-in-law’s house again because they smoke weed at every gathering. How do I find balance between being the light & not being in certain situations?7. 41:19 {Leading with Confidence, Not Cockiness} I just came into a lead role in a local ministry where many of the other adults are older than I. I want to be confident, but not cocky; Firm, but able to learn. Any tips?8. 44:52 {About Cult Shunning/Shaming} How can we differentiate the instructions given by Paul in 1 Corinthians 5: 11 & by Jesus in Matthew 18: 15-17 with the shunning/shaming practices of certain cults like Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, etc.?9. 49:01 {About Jesus’ Suffering} Did Jesus need to have suffered the most pain ever for Him to be worthy to save us? How should we answer the objection that some people have supposedly suffered worse pain, i.e. from torture or the Holocaust?10. 52:29 {Praying for and Trusting in God’s Will} How should I pray? I prayed for my husband's health, and shortly thereafter, he died suddenly & unexpectedly. Oftentimes, I feel that my will is out of sync with Yahweh's. It hurts.11. 55:36 {Do Modern Translations Hide Mythology?} Why do modern translations hide so much mythology? Leviathan and Behemoth are animals. Isaiah 34: 14, Lillith is an owl. Psalm 96: 5, Gods are idols and not demons. I fear this leads to materialism.12. 59:46 {Witnessing Well at Work} I've had some really good conversations with friends at work about being a Christian. Wha

Your questions can get answered live during my next stream by doing the following:1- Wait until after the stream begins. 2- Post a clear, concise question in the live chat with a "Q" at the beginning. How to understand the Old Testament law (Part 1):https://youtu.be/qoGKJEENngc How to understand the Old Testament law (Part 2):https://youtu.be/Qdbg5Yj8040 "How correct is Kenneth Copeland?" (This is the teaching on prayer in faith that is answered with a “no” and how to reconcile that with Jesus saying that if we believed we would have what we asked.) https://youtu.be/VvA5ZWDSdmo This is the “Battle for the Next Generation” apologetics conference I’m speaking at in Palm Springs, CA on February 25-26 of 2022. You can watch the livestream with half off with this promo code: "WINGER10" (only $10) http://desertapologetics.com Here's my website with a new clip search feature for finding exactly where in a video a particular issue is addressed. https://BibleThinker.org 1. 0:33 {About “Binding and Loosing”} In Matthew 16: 19, what does the Bible mean in terms of "binding" and "loosing," and how do we rightly understand and apply that concept today?2. 25:28 {Giving to Different Ministries} If I don't feel edified by the watered-down milk preaching at my local church, it is wrong to give less money to the local church and more money to online ministries that I spend hours listening to? 3. 28:50 {Should we “Cut Someone Off” in Life?} How do I know if I am doing the right thing by cutting off a very toxic family member? I still pray for him, but I think he is dangerous and unbalanced and he refuses to get help.4. 31:32 {Defending the Trinity} What are your thoughts on the argument against the Trinity that points out the lack of a Trinitarian controversy (like that of Nicaea) in the time of Acts and the writing of the New Testament?5. 33:36 {About False Prophets} How should we interpret Deuteronomy 13:6-9? Part of chapter is often used on Mormons for Joseph Smith being a false prophet...but if rejecting a false prophet is required, would it follow that this is required, too? This chapter - all or nothing?6. 38:38 {“Being the Light” in Difficult Situations} As a new believer, I feel I won’t be able to go to my sister-in-law’s house again because they smoke weed at every gathering. How do I find balance between being the light & not being in certain situations?7. 41:19 {Leading with Confidence, Not Cockiness} I just came into a lead role in a local ministry where many of the other adults are older than I. I want to be confident, but not cocky; Firm, but able to learn. Any tips?8. 44:52 {About Cult Shunning/Shaming} How can we differentiate the instructions given by Paul in 1 Corinthians 5: 11 & by Jesus in Matthew 18: 15-17 with the shunning/shaming practices of certain cults like Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, etc.?9. 49:01 {About Jesus’ Suffering} Did Jesus need to have suffered the most pain ever for Him to be worthy to save us? How should we answer the objection that some people have supposedly suffered worse pain, i.e. from torture or the Holocaust?10. 52:29 {Praying for and Trusting in God’s Will} How should I pray? I prayed for my husband's health, and shortly thereafter, he died suddenly & unexpectedly. Oftentimes, I feel that my will is out of sync with Yahweh's. It hurts.11. 55:36 {Do Modern Translations Hide Mythology?} Why do modern translations hide so much mythology? Leviathan and Behemoth are animals. Isaiah 34: 14, Lillith is an owl. Psalm 96: 5, Gods are idols and not demons. I fear this leads to materialism.12. 59:46 {Witnessing Well at Work} I've had some really good conversations with friends at work about being a Christian. Wha

Ben Moon is a famous rock climber from the UK. He was the first person to climb 5.14c (8c+) with his route ‘Hubble'. He is also the inventor of the MoonBoard. We talked about his early climbing experiences as a kid, his first road trip to Buoux in France in 1984, how training and sport climbing have changed, how Ben uses the MoonBoard, and much more.Check out PhysiVantage:physivantage.com (link includes 15% off coupon)Use code "NUGGET15" at checkout for 15% off your next order!Check out Chalk Cartel:chalkcartel.comUse code "NUGGET" at checkout for 20% off your next order!We are supported by these amazing BIG GIVERS:Bryan Fast, Leo Franchi, Michael Roy, David Lahaie, and Robert FreehillBecome a Patron:patreon.com/thenuggetclimbingShow Notes:  thenuggetclimbing.com/episodes/ben-moonNuggets:6:02 – Putting a face to the voice, Ben's travels in the US back in the day, and feeling like he missed out on traveling9:17 – A dry November in the UK, and Will Bosi doing the first repeat of ‘Mutation'11:14 – How Ben first started to climb at age 714:38 – Being “bitten right away” by climbing, and breaking his wrist skateboarding16:17 – Flopping out of school and living off the dole and climbing full time18:57 – Hunter House Road22:16 – Standards and climbing styles in the early 80s, and training on a brick wall26:16 – Climbing equipment in 198427:53 – Buoux, meeting Jerry Moffatt, and Ben's first-ever road trip35:38 – Doing the FA of ‘Statement of Youth' 37:54 – Friendly competition39:08 – Dreadlocks and punk rock40:10 – Shifting to bouldering for its own sake42:32 – From 8a to 8c+ (or 9a) in 6 years… what was happening?45:28 – The School Room46:36 – How Ben and Jerry were training in the School Room, how it compares to how people train now, and Ben's thoughts on deadhanging (hangboarding) and campus boarding51:00 – How the Moonboard first came to be56:56 – Moon Climbing as a company 1:00:42 – Patron question from Griffin: Favorite Moonboard hold set? Best for training? 1:02:06 – Patron question from Rebecca: New hold sets coming? Have you thought about circuits?  1:03:28 – Patron question from Karl: Looking back, what would you change about the Moonboard holds or design?1:05:22 – Why the Moonboard is a vastly more powerful training tool than Ben's old cellar board1:07:37 – Patron question from Will: How does Ben use the Moonboard, and what are some of his go-to session formats?1:12:35 – Bouldering as Ben's top training priority, and why he thinks variety is key1:14:11 – How Ben structures his training throughout the year, and within a week 1:17:10 – What Ben and I would each change about our training if we could go back in time1:21:21 – FA of ‘Voyager Sit' 8B+ (V14)1:24:07 – Quitting climbing after ‘Voyager Sit', and coming back and climbing ‘Rainshadow' 9a (5.14d)1:27:59 – Training fitness on the route, and gaining fitness with age, but fighting to maintain strength1:31:17 – Circuit training at the climbing gym1:34:30 – Question from Steve McClure: Does Ben feel the age thing yet?1:38:24 – Ben's ongoing battle with ‘Northern Lights', and thoughts on kneebars1:45:38 – Patron question from Markham: Background on the Mini MoonBoard? Future plans for it?1:47:07 – Ben's thoughts on the MoonBoard gades (he thinks they're hard!)1:49:24 – How hard Ben climbs on the MoonBoard1:50:11 – Patron question from Florian: Is the Mini MoonBoard the most relevant board for training for rock? 1:51:41 – Recommendations for people who train on a MoonBoard at home, and future tools that will help1:54:29 – Patron question from PogoStickJoe: What is the definition of Dowsy Fuck? (turns out it was “Dozy Fuck”), and what it feels like for Ben to watch his old movies1:56:45 – Patron question from Oskar: Where can I watch The Real Thing online? (It's in the show notes!)1:57:45 – Patron question from Andreson: Any expedition stories?1:58:34 – Starting a clothing brand, and getting inspiration from Christian Griffith2:00:28 – What is Ben's legacy?2:02:20 – Which of Ben's climbing achievements stand out to him2:02:37 – What's next for Ben, and unfinished goals 2:03:40 – Where you can find Ben (@moonclimbing on Instagram)2:03:59 – “Train hard, climb harder.”

Knowing GOD's Will - Part 5 - How to Channelise Your Desires? | John Giftah In this short inspirational Christian sermon, Evangelist John Giftah shares about the next aspect in Knowing GOD's Will - How to Discern and Channelise our desires the right way. You can buy my new bestselling book, UNVEIL YOUR PURPOSE (a #1 Newly Released Bestseller on Amazon) here: India: https://www.amazon.in/UNVEIL-YOUR-PURPOSE-John-Giftah/dp/B08K2CJKP2/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=john+giftah&qid=1611990618&sr=8-1 Global Amazon.com: https://www.amazon.com/Unveil-Your-Purpose-Complete-Created-ebook/dp/B08L7XX9PJ/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=john+giftah%27&qid=1611990705&sr=8-2 You can stay in touch with me through these platforms: YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/johngiftah Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/johngiftah Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sjohngiftah/ Website: https://www.johngiftah.com/ If you're blessed by this sermon, don't forget to share it with someone, and please do rate/ review the podcast so that it will help us reach more people with the message of hope. For supporting the ministry financially: PayPal: paypal.me/johngiftah #JohnGiftah #JohnGiftahPodcast #Christian #Christianity #BibleStudy #Faith #Hope #InspirationalSermon #ChristianMotivation #ChristianInspiration #Motivation #Motivational #Inspirational #Bible #BibleStudy #GODsWill #WillofGOD #Heart #Desires --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/john-giftah/message

Knowing GOD's Will - Part 5 - How to Channelise Your Desires? | John GiftahIn this short inspirational Christian sermon, Evangelist John Giftah shares about the next aspect in Knowing GOD's Will - How to Discern and Channelise our desires the right way. You can buy my new bestselling book, UNVEIL YOUR PURPOSE (a #1 Newly Released Bestseller on Amazon) here:India: https://www.amazon.in/UNVEIL-YOUR-PURPOSE-John-Giftah/dp/B08K2CJKP2/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=john+giftah&qid=1611990618&sr=8-1Global Amazon.com: https://www.amazon.com/Unveil-Your-Purpose-Complete-Created-ebook/dp/B08L7XX9PJ/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=john+giftah%27&qid=1611990705&sr=8-2You can stay in touch with me through these platforms:YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/johngiftahInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/johngiftahFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/sjohngiftah/Website: https://www.johngiftah.com/If you're blessed by this sermon, don't forget to share it with someone, and please do rate/ review the podcast so that it will help us reach more people with the message of hope.For supporting the ministry financially:  PayPal: paypal.me/johngiftah#JohnGiftah #JohnGiftahPodcast #Christian #Christianity #BibleStudy #Faith #Hope #InspirationalSermon #ChristianMotivation #ChristianInspiration #Motivation #Motivational #Inspirational #Bible #BibleStudy #GODsWill #WillofGOD #Heart #Desires--- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/john-giftah/message

Will Dover, Director of Category Management, Undercar at CarParts.com joins the guys to discuss one of the two most essential aspects of driving – stopping. While not everyone sees the fun factor of brakes, those who do can really appreciate how great stopping power enhances vehicle performance and driving pleasure. Selecting the right kit can be daunting, posing this challenge for Will: “How do we make it as simple as possible for the customer to find the right product for their car so that we can get them back on the road as quickly as possible?” Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hazel Findlay is a professional climber and mental training coach from the UK, known for her boldness on dangerous and difficult trad routes. We talked about common themes in mental coaching, how the ego manifests in our climbing, supporting your partners, fear of falling, and Hazel's mental approach while projecting the legendary ‘Magic Line', her first 5.14c.Support the PodcastBecome a PatronClimbWell Retreat:climbwell.co/retreat-rifleUse code "NUGGET10" for 10% discount!Show Notes:  thenuggetclimbing.com/episodes/hazel-findlayNuggets:5:00 – Talking across time zones, and Hazel's home in Whales7:00 – Masters studies, Brexit + covid, and Hazel's lifestyle these days9:33 – Being trapped on the ferry curing covid11:25 – Weather in Whales16:11 – Priorities, balancing climbing, coaching, and school, and doing stuff that involves others20:52 – Coaching is asking questions, and helping people figure out what they want and how they can get there25:27 – The ego27:42 – How the ego manifests in our climbing, and loosening our attachment to outcomes30:52 – Patron Question from Tyler: What type of people are most likely to seek coaching?33:42 – Patron Question from Tyler: Differences between men and women (in general) when it comes to fear of falling37:05 – Patron Question from Tyler: Advice when supporting someone who is working on their mental game?40:37 – More resources on fear of falling41:32 – Patron Question from Kellen: Differences between advanced and new climbers when it comes to mental training needs.43:17 – Patron Question from Will: How to balance between confidence vs. cockiness, and cultural differences in confidence48:46 – Magic Line description54:51 – Hazel's mental practice while climbing Magic Line58:18 – Jasna's email, and what inspired Hazel about Magic Line1:04:19 – Question from Jasna: How did Hazel prepare for the possibility of failure?1:07:37 – Keeping your head and climbing better1:08:40 – Daily mental practices 1:11:20 – Hazel's thoughts on the lack of publicity of Magic Line1:15:17 – Patron Question from Jen: Any advice from Hazel's shoulder surgery and recovery?1:24:03 – Patron Question from AnnaMarie: Most memorable climb? 1:25:03 – Next El Cap route?1:25:56 – Escaping to Greece during covid, and her upcoming trip to the states1:29:14 – How to connect with Hazel1:30:18 – Gratitude

Jason Kehl is a professional rock climber known for his highball bouldering ascents, and unique artistic expression. We talked about karate and how screaming helps his climbing, roof climbing in his parents' basement, a chronology of his haircuts, vans he's lived in, having kids, bouldering with cargo nets in Hueco Tanks, and notable highball ascents like ‘Evilution' and ‘The Fly'.Support the PodcastBecome a PatronFacebook GroupShow Notes:  thenuggetclimbing.com/episodes/jason-kehlNuggets:2:05 – Karate6:48 – Power screaming and made-up words9:20 – ‘Count to Six and Die' 10:47 – Growing up in a small town in Maryland, climbing trees, the basement home wall, and Jason's go-to move15:53 – Parental support16:34 – Jason's journey to bouldering, and climbing ‘Evilution'20:25 – Getting noticed for highballing, and bouldering ‘The Fly' 25:15 – Joe's Valley27:29 – Jason in High School, pocket protectors, and the weird kid's lunch table30:51 – Developing his image, sponsorship, and performing for an audience32:45 – The competition disguise33:50 – Jason's theme song35:25 – A chronicle of Jason's hairstyles42:30 – The Dreaded Wudan Mullet43:30 – A chronicle of Jason's vans47:35 – Falling in love with Hueco, and climbing in the summer52:30 – Are there any FAs left in Hueco?55:37 – Having kids, and focusing your time1:06:38 – Cargo nets1:17:35 – Social Media, and being a professional climber1:25:44 – Patron Question from Logan: What was the most difficult part of dropping everything to be a pro climber?1:28:01 – Odd jobs1:29:39 – Patron Question from Will: How did the NE influence his climbing? 1:33:16 – Patron Question from Nick: Do you ever go back and repeat dangerous climbs you've done before?1:35:53 – Gratitude1:37:40 – Don't give away the beta1:41:22 – Reminders and stuff I'm excited about 

Steve McClure is one of the best rock-climbers in the world, having made the FA of the hardest sport route in the UK at 9b (5.15b), at age 46. We talked about early hitchhiking stories, discovering sport climbing, the three parts of climbing ability, how to improve over the long haul, foot-on campusing, and much more.Support on Patreon:  patreon.com/thenuggetclimbing Show Notes:  http://thenuggetclimbing.com/episodes/steve-mcclureNuggets:4:12 – Podcasts, and the desire to listen6:22 – Hitching13:58 – Growing up in the Northeast of England, and the climbing wall Steve built in his garage18:43 – Early climbing, and discovering sport climbing22:36 – Steve’s first E326:42 – Tenacity, and trying hard 29:22 – “It’s all down to motivation.” - Ben Moon34:16 – ‘Rainman’37:28 – Going with the flow vs. pursuing long-term goals  44:08 – ‘Mutation’, and Will Bossi  47:21 – “You make your own luck.”48:19 – Was ‘Mutation’ the first 5.15?49:54 – “You can’t have regrets.”52:32 – My (Steven’s) struggle with personal limits, how hard Steve was climbing at my age, and the good news for aging climbers56:17 – The mental and technical aspects of climbing57:42 – The three parts of climbing ability (technical, mental, and physical)59:46 – Foot-on campusing (aka laddering)1:08:30 – How Steve fits in foot-on campusing around other climbing and training1:12:27 – Question from Branko: How do you approach climbing at your local crag, after you’ve done everything? Do you only get on the hard stuff, or do you repeat any routes to continue building your pyramid?1:15:40 – How Steve approached each new season on Rainman, and adding more thought to his climbing gym sessions1:19:08 – Question from Adriel: One exercise to improve strength?1:22:00 – Question from Adriel: Who would win in an arm-wresting match between Steve and Dave MacLeod?1:23:34 – Question from Will: How does Steve balance training and recovery as he gets older?1:26:23 – Steve’s typical climbing schedule at age 50, and his routine for Rainman1:31:06 – Question from Anderson: Does Steve think his hardest climbing is ahead of him? What about his best?1:33:14 – Steve’s hardest climb (his onsight of ‘Nightmare’)1:34:26 – The best1:35:24 – Steve’s decision to move to Sheffield1:38:10 – Steve’s go-to breakfast1:39:49 – Writing, and Steve’s training diary1:45:26 – Gratitude1:49:29 – Frozen fingers, and Steve’s onsight attempt of ‘To Bolt or Not to Be’1:53:42 – The great equalizer1:56:52 – Steve’s Instagram and website1:58:52 – Pembroke, witnessing an accident, and rethinking risk

UK house prices were up 5%, the highest growth rate in four years, in September year on year, according to the Nationwide Building Society’s lending data. Mortgage lending also rose, reaching a 13-year high, as the property market experienced increased post-lockdown demand. However, job loss fears and tighter mortgage lending criteria forced many young people to delay buying a property. Activity has partly increased due to the temporary stamp duty holiday, which means no tax is paid on the first £500,000 of all property sales in England and Northern Ireland until the end of March. However, some estate agents are saying that there is a “mixed bag” of demand, with some properties selling faster than others, for instance four-bed houses with space for a home office. London based agents are reporting a “buyers’ market” with room for negotiation on properties for sale in the capital. Maybe the new ‘work from home’ pattern is encouraging young people to move out of city centres, where they have more space and can afford larger properties?  Other articles available atMoney Tips Podcast - www.moneytipsdaily.com   Have you made a Will? How will a crash affect your pension? House prices rise to reach all time high How to avoid bankruptcy in business Will demand for HMO rooms rise or fall? Is this the end of office work as we know it? Home workers one step closer to outsourced Why live in expensive town centres anymore? Buy-to-let landlords ignore “NO DSS” tenant ban Thousands trapped in unsellable leasehold flats New Job Support Scheme unveiled by UK Chancellor 2m homeowners apply for mortgage payment holiday Government extends ban on landlords evicting tenants  Self-employed, have you claimed your government grant? UK property prices jumped by 3% since June following stamp duty cut Why UK Property prices rising after stamp duty cut, despite the downturn? New planning rules will open up more opportunities to make money in property You can create a second income during the lockdown…and come out stronger Learn how to make money from property without deposits, mortgages or cash   Millions of people face a bleak future post-Coronavirus lockdown, as businesses disappear and the job furlough scheme eventually comes to an end. However, life doesn’t have to end because of lockdown! You can join thousands of ordinary people who have increased their income and added streams of new income during this period.  Are you ready to adapt to the new economic model? As lockdown restrictions around the world are being eased, the economic model has subtly changed forever. How will you adapt to this new way of working and running a business, what obstacles and opportunities lies ahead? Will you be a participant or spectator in this revolution?  By Charles Kelly, Wealth Mentor, Property Investor, Author of Yes, Money Can Buy You Happiness and creator of Money Tips Podcast. There are more examples and practical steps to getting rich and being happy in my book, Yes, money can buy happiness, I cover the 3 R’s of Money Management, the Money B.E.L.I.E.F System and much more. Check it out on Amazon http://bit.ly/2MoneyBook. If you’d like further information on wealth mentoring and coaching, how to survive the crisis and even quit the rat race, email me at Charles@CharlesKelly.net or send me a message through Facebook or my Money Tips Daily community. See more articles at www.moneytipsdaily.com See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Chancellor Rishi Sunak has announced the Jobs Support Scheme, replacing the job retention furlough scheme, giving people in work three quarters of their normal salaries for six months. The UK government will be topping up wages of workers who have not been able to return to the workplace full time due to the coronavirus, instead of paying people to stay at home. Sunak hopes the new £300 million a month package, starting on 1 November, will prevent mass job cuts when the furlough scheme ends next month on 31 October. Around three million workers representing 12% of the UK workforce, are benefiting from partial or full furlough leave, according to figures. The government wants to support the wages of people in work, giving viable “businesses who face depressed demand the option of keeping employees in a job on shorter hours, rather than making them redundant," Mr Sunak said. He will "support only viable jobs" as opposed to jobs that only exist because the government is continuing to subsidise the wages, adding that he "cannot save every business and save every job." Mr Sunak also offered businesses that have borrowed money through the government's loan scheme more time to repay the money. The VAT cut for hospitality and tourism companies will be extended until March. The chancellor announced that small businesses who took out "Bounce Back" loans can use the new “Pay as You Grow” flexible repayment system, which means repayments on borrowings can be spread over 10 years instead of the original six-year term. Other articles available atMoney Tips Podcast - www.moneytipsdaily.com Have you made a Will? How will a crash affect your pension? House prices rise to reach all time high How to avoid bankruptcy in business Will demand for HMO rooms rise or fall? Is this the end of office work as we know it? Home workers one step closer to outsourced Why live in expensive town centres anymore? Buy-to-let landlords ignore “NO DSS” tenant ban Thousands trapped in unsellable leasehold flats 2m homeowners apply for mortgage payment holiday Government extends ban on landlords evicting tenants Self-employed, have you claimed your government grant? UK property prices jumped by 3% since June following stamp duty cut Why UK Property prices rising after stamp duty cut, despite the downturn? New planning rules will open up more opportunities to make money in property You can create a second income during the lockdown…and come out stronger Learn how to make money from property without deposits, mortgages or cash Millions of people face a bleak future post-Coronavirus lockdown, as businesses disappear and the job furlough scheme eventually comes to an end. However, life doesn’t have to end because of lockdown! You can join thousands of ordinary people who have increased their income and added streams of new income during this period. Are you ready to adapt to the new economic model? As lockdown restrictions around the world are being eased, the economic model has subtly changed forever. How will you adapt to this new way of working and running a business, what obstacles and opportunities lies ahead? Will you be a participant or spectator in this revolution? By Charles Kelly, Wealth Mentor, Property Investor, Author of Yes, Money Can Buy You Happiness and creator of Money Tips Podcast. There are more examples and practical steps to getting rich and being happy in my book, Yes, money can buy happiness, I cover the 3 R’s of Money Management, the Money B.E.L.I.E.F System and much more. Check it out on Amazon http://bit.ly/2MoneyBook. If you’d like further information on wealth mentoring and coaching, how to survive the crisis and even quit the rat race, email me at Charles@CharlesKelly.net or send me a message through Facebook or my Money Tips Daily community. See more articles at www.moneytipsdaily.com           See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode 21 Feat. ED Ahmean *Fatherisms -August, Jada & Will -How do you deal with hurtful comments in relationships? -How do we express the hurt and discuss how to move forward? -Infidelity as a pro athlete and a high profile wife. -Coronavirus, schools scheduled to re open? *Oddcast Mini Mix *Man to Man -Keeping your focus -Violence in our communities! Does BLM really matter to Black youth? *Sports -Washington Football Name/Logo change? Drama? -15 woman come forward in sexual misconduct case. *Music/Entertainment -Nick Cannon, Fired! -Megan Thee Stallion & Tory Lanez drama? -Verzuz Battle: Snoop vs DMX *The Oddman Out Hip-Hop Bracket challenge! Disclaimer: We do not own the rights to any if the music that was played! *****PROMOTIONAL USE ONLY***** Email: Barsandhoopsradio@gmail.com @Barsandhoops (Acast, Breaker, Google Podcast, iTunes, iHeart Radio, Pocketcast, Soundcloud, Spotify, Stitcher, Streama, TuneIn, Twitter, YouTube, Instagram, Facebook)

Have you ever thought about making a career change, and not quite known what to do, or when to do it and so just let the idea slip by? For Cheryl Tomlinson she was getting towards the second half of life and had thought about what she might like to do for the next phase of her work life, but didn't have a clear answer of what she'd like to do or when to do it... and then, the choice was taken out of her hands with an unexpected and unpleasant retrenchment. She now regards that as a blessing in disguise... because it led to her new profession as an end of life expert... In this podcast interview episode Cheryl talks with Shandra about: •Her early childhood fascination with the end of life •The importance of exploring and crafting her business idea •Support she got to help her make progress despite a complex family caring situation •Having an up to date Will •How 'dysfunctional' families are the new normal •A tip to ensure that when you die your Superannuation goes where you want it to •Tips to keep in mind as you start your own business. To find out more about Cheryl you can connect with her here: https://www.facebook.com/willittobe www.willittobe.com.au Plus... given that money is a major part of any transition to starting and growing your own business, here's an invitation for you to do a quick 5 minute tick a box Money Breakthrough Quiz so you can learn more about the 5 Money Zones and find out which one you should focus on first to have the biggest impact on your bank balance. You can access the quiz here: https://www.thetransitlounge.com/moneyquiz/ Do you like this sort of food for thought? Want to make sure you are the first to hear every new episode? You can do both of those things - catch up on past episodes and subscribe for free right here on iTunes or Stitcher and now on Spotify! Also I would love it if you left a rating and review on iTunes which will help other people to find it... thank you!

What if we had it all wrong? What if our thoughts and beliefs on what willpower had nothing to do with what is really going on intuit beautiful mind and heart of your. In this episode you and I talk willpower, but first I need to take you on a little journey to your power energy center, your solar plexus, your digestive center because in order for us to talk about YOUR amazing willpower we need to understand where exactly it comes from (yep, willpower is born in a physical place in your body). I then break apart the three factor involving your willpower Power: Are you getting power, strength, feeding that fire we all have in us? Are you giving that fire what it needs? Will: How many decision did you make today were actually yours, decision that you WANTED, desired? You need to have a boatload of will each and every day, or else that elusive willpower falls away from us. This was a great section to talk about motivation, so we spent some time looking at why most of us are NOT motivated and what it means. Your will and your motivation are linked at the hip. Environment: I don't care how strong or powerful you are, how you have your own free will glistening around you, girl, if you walk by that fav shoe store of yours 17 times a day, at some point it is going to happen, and now you have a 8th pair of black slings that you don't need. Here we talked about how you only have so many "Nos" in you every day. There is only so many times you can say no. It is a number. You have one. When you get to your daily limit, guess what, the next time you were going to say NO, you will say YES. So we need to talk about your environment and what we cando to ensure that the main areas you spend your time in each day (your bedroom, kitchen, bathroom, office, the car, whatever), are environments that fully support your growth, your healing and your epic dreams. I tapped this episode the day after Kobe Bryant and his daughter tragically passed away, so we talked about grieving and what sense we can make out of all of this.  I also touched on a message I received from a client about Stevia. That discussion got a little heated. In the episode, I did mention a couple links I would put here in the show notes for you. They are a few of my past episodes on understanding your cravings, determining your mind/body type and what you need to know when you are grieving, so here you go..... Episode 11: What Your Cravings Are Telling You Episode 8: What is Your Mind/Body Type Episode 41: Dealing with Death with Kenlyn Kolleen Episode 43: Saying Goodbye - Dealing with a Sudden Loss Love and light, Sweet Yogis - Marla Oh, and if you want to get in touch and let me know what you thought of today's episode, you can always find me on Instagram @marla.barr or on my site at www.marlabarr.com  

Hi there, Shenanities! We recorded this episode LIVE at Shenanicon 2018, so in addition to our buttery voices, you get to hear the scotchy whispers of some of your fellow Shenanites! We’ll talk about vampire flavors, nihilism pants, and why you sometimes just need a fat beat orchestra piece. If you take only one thing away from this episode, it should be this: if you come across a genie, just run in the other direction. Thanks to everyone who came out to see us at the first ever Shenanicon! Questions answered (abbreviated): - Angrymuffin: If moonlight is actually sunlight reflecting off of the moon's surface, why doesn't it kill vampires? - Senolir: Given the recent shutdown of the Apple Affiliate program, do you think Indies should be doing anything different to get their initial press coverage? Would you say this struggle is any easier when launching to steam, or does that audience still expect too much more in terms of scope to be a good platform for an Indie studio’s first few offerings anyway? - Shout64: How did you get connected with Fat Bard? Did you intentionally chose a music studio from your area? Could you talk about the importance of music/sound effects in your games, and any interesting ways you implement them? - Will: How do you handle being business partners and family? I hear a lot that partnerships are a bad idea but you seem to do well. Do you have any tips? - Mr. Ward: Where do bots come from? - Philipbear93: If businesses were people, what would their lives look like? What would Butterscotch Shenanigans be like as a person? - The_Rumpus: You're greeted by a Gamedev genie, who grants you the ability to fire any code, art assets, and robots/web-tech the three of you could possibly desire.. for the next 10 minutes. QUICK! What game do you make?! GO! To stay up to date with all of our buttery goodness subscribe to the podcast on Apple podcasts (apple.co/1LxNEnk). If you want to get more involved in the Butterscotch community, hop into our DISCORD server at discord.gg/bscotch and say hello! Submit questions at http://podcast.bscotch.net, disclose all of your secrets to podcast@bscotch.net, and send letters, gifts, and tasty treats to http://bit.ly/bscotchmailbox. Finally, if you’d like to support the show and buy some coffee FOR Butterscotch, head over to http://moneygrab.bscotch.net.

In episode #97 Comment trolls, Shop Organization, Music inspiration, how to Identify wood And the worst joke of the week yet!Help us grow on Patreon https://www.patreon.com/CreatorsCollectiveHuge thank you to All of our Patreons! Especially Darren Mattes, Caleb Harris of YouCanMakeThisToo and John from John Made ItNew Patreons:You can listen to us on iTunes, Google Play, SoundCloud and many other placesYou can join us live Thursdays at 10 AM eastern on the Creators Collective Podcast https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_0AZEDUA-UWfoSxLil7gBgWhat’s new/ what are we working on?Zack: Hammers, VideosWill: Built-ins, Online Store, trying to gauge this finicky storm, 3D printer video https://youtu.be/YyyL_dh8BF8James: Running my head off, stabilizing wood, testing Dovetail guides.Q&A:JW Craftsman: How many times did you rearrange and reorganize your shop before you were actually happy with the layout? After working in the shop for a few months I always think ofYonatan24: How do you get musical creativity vs DIY creativity? Do music ideas pop into your head? Thinking of a song isn't like turning steel into a knife, clever project ideas come from a NEED for a solution. & how do you know you aren't ripping anyone off, ie copying a tune/sing you heard on the radio 2 weeks before...?John Made it: I'm terrible at identifying wood types. how did you guys learn to identify them? is there any good guides to identify different spices of wood?Creators Photo ChallengeDue next time: Free Style (best Photo you can make)Joke of the weekStephen Ellis​: What do you call a jazz fan that uses hand tools? A Sole ManWhat’s new/what are we watching/reading?Will: How to cut thin strips WOOD magazine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ5Gr7A-xow&t=474sJames: CHop With Chris: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftch0WaaQiE&list=LLbMtJOly6TpO5MQQnNwkCHg&index=35Zack: Uri Tuchman - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2mWvozSdvEFavorite tool/product this week?Zack: Shinto Wood rasp - https://amzn.to/2xaQf8XWill: ½” Pipe Clamps - https://amzn.to/2p607NCJames: Veritas Custom hand plane: http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/CustomPlane.aspxHostsJames Wright: Wood By Wright https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbMtJOly6TpO5MQQnNwkCHgZack Herberholz: ZH Fabrication https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDdZMJDDpyvI9WJyY7IZP7wWilliam Walker: Wm. Walker Co. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCievvwx_-UU-rP28103rUCwSHOW NOTESIntro and outro recorded and produced by Jason Wright http://withamic.com/

Summary Economic Definitions? Really? How could that be important, or even not crashingly boring? In a world where we are seeing headlines that appear--appear--to advertise the clash between socialism and capitalism, we need to have at least basic definitions of those deeply misunderstood terms. And we are seeing more people and organizations wanting to abolish profit. Try these thoughts on for size: 1. Capitalism is necessary for democratic socialism to have anything to redistribute and 2. Profit is necessary to make any economic system’s engine run. How are money and wealth created? All individuals and societies need both. Individuals and private groups must generate profits in order to make money and create wealth. Governments tax that money and wealth. Links and References Socialism Works Killing the Golden Goose Moral Compass Contact Please do reach out with comments or questions.  You can email me at will@revolution2-0.org, or connect with me on Twitter, Facebook, and LinkedIn. And you can subscribe to the podcast on your favorite device through Apple Podcasts, Google, or Stitcher. Transcript Economic Definitions? Really, Will? How could they be important, or even not crashingly boring? In a world where we are seeing headlines that appear--appear, mind you--to advertise the clash between socialism and capitalism, we need to understand at least the basic definitions of those deeply misunderstood terms. And at the same time we are seeing more people and organizations wanting to abolish profit. Try these thoughts on for size: 1. Capitalism is necessary for democratic socialism to have anything to redistribute and 2. Profit is necessary to make any economic system’s engine run. How are money and wealth created? All individuals and societies need both. Individuals and private groups must generate profits in order to make money and create wealth. Governments tax that money and wealth. The exceptions are communist governments and governments that use the classic definition of socialism. And we’ll get to that. In both types, the government owns the means of productions. But no matter who owns what, the enterprise producing the goods and services that a society consumes must take in more money that it costs to produce those items and services. That’s called a profit. Here are the key definitions: Democratic Socialism: I believe that Senator Sanders and others are talking about something other than the traditional definition of socialism. They are not talking about the government owning the means of production. They are not talking about the government owning entities like Ford and Facebook. Not yet, anyway. Democratic socialists are talking about massive income and wealth redistribution. Even more than we have now. The Scandinavian countries are an example. Democratic socialism is capitalism with heavy income redistribution. Traditional Socialism. See above, democratic socialism, with the government owning Ford, Facebook and most everything else of size. You can keep your ice cream store if you have one. See Venezuela, Cuba and others. Communism: Traditional socialism with the addition of prohibiting any private property. Capitalism: A system wherein people, individuals or groups, including corporations, own the means of production and engage in voluntary exchanges of money for goods and services. Profit: Selling things, taking in income, for more than it costs to make them, drives everything; capitalism, democratic socialism, traditional socialism, communism, no matter. We are not talking about taxes or what you do with taxes; we are talking about how you make the money and wealth that is taxed in the first place. The gozindas have to exceed the gozoutas or nothing works in any system. Question: Which economic method or principle, either type of socialism, communism or capitalism, is the best approach to making and selling products and services for more than they cost?

06-24-18 - Decoding: How to Know God’s Will - How to Know God’s Will - Scotty Gibbons 1. God has a plan for each of our lives, and His plan is ALWAYS the best plan. Psalm 139:13-16 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb. 14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. 15 My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth. 16 Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. (NIV) Ephesians 2:10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. (NIV) 1 John 2:17 The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever. (NIV) 2. God’s will is not a secret. John 10:3-5 The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice. (NIV) 1. A commitment to discovering the will of God. Matthew 6:33-34 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own. (NIV) 2 Timothy 3:16-17 All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right. 17 God uses it to prepare and equip his people to do every good work. (NLT) Psalm 119:105 Your word is a lamp for my feet, a light on my path. (NIV) Psalm 119:105 By your words I can see where I’m going; they throw a beam of light on my dark path. (MSG) 2. A true desire to DO the will of God. Psalm 40:8 I desire to do your will, my God; your law is within my heart. (NIV) A.  It’s God’s will for you to be saved. 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. (NIV) B.  It’s God’s will for you to be spirit-filled. Ephesians 5:15-18 Be very careful, then, how you live—not as unwise but as wise, 16 making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil. 17 Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord’s will is. 18 Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit (NIV) 3.  It’s God’s will for you to be set apart. 1 Thessalonians 4:3 It is God’s will that you should be sanctified. (NIV) 4.  It’s God’s will for you to be thankful. 1 Thessalonians 5:18 give thanks in all circumstances; for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus. (NIV)

06-24-18 - Decoding: How to Know God’s Will - How to Know God’s Will - Scotty Gibbons 1. God has a plan for each of our lives, and His plan is ALWAYS the best plan. Psalm 139:13-16 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb. 14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. 15 My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth. 16 Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. (NIV) Ephesians 2:10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. (NIV) 1 John 2:17 The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever. (NIV) 2. God’s will is not a secret. John 10:3-5 The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice. (NIV) 1. A commitment to discovering the will of God. Matthew 6:33-34 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own. (NIV) 2 Timothy 3:16-17 All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right. 17 God uses it to prepare and equip his people to do every good work. (NLT) Psalm 119:105 Your word is a lamp for my feet, a light on my path. (NIV) Psalm 119:105 By your words I can see where I’m going; they throw a beam of light on my dark path. (MSG) 2. A true desire to DO the will of God. Psalm 40:8 I desire to do your will, my God; your law is within my heart. (NIV) A.  It’s God’s will for you to be saved. 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. (NIV) B.  It’s God’s will for you to be spirit-filled. Ephesians 5:15-18 Be very careful, then, how you live—not as unwise but as wise, 16 making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil. 17 Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord’s will is. 18 Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit (NIV) 3.  It’s God’s will for you to be set apart. 1 Thessalonians 4:3 It is God’s will that you should be sanctified. (NIV) 4.  It’s God’s will for you to be thankful. 1 Thessalonians 5:18 give thanks in all circumstances; for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus. (NIV)

This is the second part of the episode where David interviews Will Rial, international athlete manager for sports management agency, Run-Fast. If you've not listened to the first episode, we'd suggest you go back and listen to that first before this one. The discussion continues with David discussing with Will: How sports management agencies draft in the right type of runners How they manage runners to maximise the money they get from races What's the purpose of different types of bonuses and fees How the agency selects the different races and picks who challenges who What the effect is on the racers and their families when they're under contract Why even the big runners still keep it real The Silk Cut on the second part is just 5 minutes. If you enjoyed this episode please SUBSCRIBE to get every episode delivered to you before everyone else. Join the conversation! If you want to request a guest or chat about this episode with like-minded drunk runners then head over to our Facebook Group, answer three questions either correctly or hilariously and we'll realise you're not a spam robot and add you in! You can also follow us on Twitter, Jody is @Ultrarunnerjody, David is @DavidHellard and the joint account is @BadBoyRunning1 You can also email us letters@badboyrunning.com  Lastly, don't forget to subscribe! FYB!

There’s no roadmap for the entrepreneurial journey, no one to tell you what to do, how to do it and when to have it done by. The leaders who prevail are the ones who just keep going, trying option after option until they find an effective path. This was true for Will Pearson, who started Mental Floss out of his college dorm room and eventually grew it into a quirky business with millions of fans. There’s something to be said for believing in an idea and relentlessly executing until completion.  Here’s a few of the things you'll learn from Will: How naivety and a lack of industry knowledge can work in our favor The importance of keeping an open mind in looking for new opportunities and revenue streams  Why business growth is a process of gradual shifts and organic evolution The advice Will would give his college self and any anyone else starting something today Check out Will’s new podcast Part Time Genius, you’re bound to learn something interesting!

Today’s question comes from Will: How can he grow his email list without being overly promotional? In this episode I mention my 100 Email Challenge, a free, three-day challenge to help you build an email list of 100 subscribers. Check it out at http://100emails.com. Do you have a question about email marketing? Record it at http://www.askpat.com/. Today’s sponsor is FreshBooks. Go to http://www.freshbooks.com/askpat and enter “Ask Pat” in the “How Did You Hear About Us?” section for more information.

Colossians 1- Part 1 (June 4) UP- Jesus Christ is Superior and Sufficient Colossians 1- Part 3 (June 18) OUT- The Gospel of Jesus Grows Colossians 1- Part 4 (June 25) The Gospel of Jesus Endures Colossians 1- Part 5 (July 2) The Gospel of Jesus Suffers How does the Gospel Transform my life? 1. God Rescues (vv. 13-14) 2. The Church Prays (vv. 3-4, 8-9a) 3. God Fills (v. 9b) 4. The Christian Produces (vv. 10-12) A. Bearing Fruit in Good Works B. Growing in Knowledge C. Enduring with Patience D. Giving Thanks with Joy Response: -Have I experienced Rescue from darkness/Redemption of sins? -How am I participating in a Praying Church? -How am I being filled with the Knowledge of God’s Will? -How does my life display the Gospel?

Elle Gentle has attended the Hot House Party where she and Ingrid made a pact to make out with a boy in their new Supre outfits. Does Elle still love Will? How did the girls go with their pact? Find out in this weeks installment of Elle's Diary.

Who wears the Black Suit of Death? What is the mysterious Agent 1.22? Who is the violent vigilante in Tomboy (art/story by Mia Goodwin)? How can comics bring awareness to depression (w/Elaine M. Will)? How did the Star Wars begin? Notes: www.fortheloveofindie.com Host Twitter: @JustDrewVG Guest Twitter: @ElaineMWill

Sara Dimerman in conversation with Les Kotzer. Over the course of this episode you will learn more about: At what age or stage of life one should consider creating a Will and why What words such as executor, estate, assets, guardians, probate tax & power of attorney mean Whether do-it-yourself Wills are good enough. Why or why not? Whether or not you need a lawyer with special training to write your Will How often and when Wills should be revised and why What happens to your property and assets if you die without a Will in place What happens to your children if you die without a Will in place