Podcasts about nathan there

Table of contentsNote: links take you to the corresponding section below; links to the original episode can be found there.* Laura Duffy solves housing, ethics, and more [00:01:16]* Arjun Panickssery solves books, hobbies, and blogging, but fails to solve the Sleeping Beauty problem because he's wrong on that one [00:10:47]* Nathan Barnard on how financial regulation can inform AI regulation [00:17:16]* Winston Oswald-Drummond on the tractability of reducing s-risk, ethics, and more [00:27:48]* Nathan Barnard (again!) on why general intelligence is basically fake [00:34:10]* Daniel Filan on why I'm wrong about ethics (+ Oppenheimer and what names mean in like a hardcore phil of language sense) [00:56:54]* Holly Elmore on AI pause, wild animal welfare, and some cool biology things I couldn't fully follow but maybe you can [01:04:00]* Max Alexander and I solve ethics, philosophy of mind, and cancel culture once and for all [01:24:43]* Sarah Woodhouse on discovering AI x-risk, Twitter, and more [01:30:56] * Pigeon Hour x Consistently Candid pod-crossover: I debate moral realism with Max Alexander and Sarah Hastings-Woodhouse [01:41:08]Intro [00:00:00]To wrap up the year of Pigeon Hour, the podcast, I put together some clips from each episode to create a best-of compilation. This was inspired by 80,000 Hours, a podcast that did the same with their episodes, and I thought it was pretty cool and tractable enough.It's important to note that the clips I chose range in length significantly. This does not represent the quality or amount of interesting content in the episode. Sometimes there was a natural place to break the episode into a five-minute chunk, and other times it wouldn't have made sense to take a five-minute chunk out of what really needed to be a 20-minute segment. I promise I'm not just saying that.So without further ado, please enjoy.#1: Laura Duffy solves housing, ethics, and more [00:01:16]In this first segment, Laura, Duffy, and I discuss the significance and interpretation of Aristotle's philosophical works in relation to modern ethics and virtue theory.AARON: Econ is like more interesting. I don't know. I don't even remember of all the things. I don't know, it seems like kind of cool. Philosophy. Probably would have majored in philosophy if signaling wasn't an issue. Actually, maybe I'm not sure if that's true. Okay. I didn't want to do the old stuff though, so I'm actually not sure. But if I could aristotle it's all wrong. Didn't you say you got a lot out of Nicomachi or however you pronounce that?LAURA: Nicomachian ethics guide to how you should live your life. About ethics as applied to your life because you can't be perfect. Utilitarians. There's no way to be that.AARON: But he wasn't even responding to utilitarianism. I'm sure it was a good work given the time, but like, there's like no other discipline in which we care. So people care so much about like, what people thought 2000 years ago because like the presumption, I think the justified presumption is that things have iterated and improved since then. And I think that's true. It's like not just a presumption.LAURA: Humans are still rather the same and what our needs are for living amongst each other in political society are kind of the same. I think America's founding is very influenced by what people thought 2000 years ago.AARON: Yeah, descriptively that's probably true. But I don't know, it seems like all the whole body of philosophers have they've already done the work of, like, compressing the good stuff. Like the entire academy since like, 1400 or whatever has like, compressed the good stuff and like, gotten rid of the bad stuff. Not in like a high fidelity way, but like a better than chance way. And so the stuff that remains if you just take the state of I don't know if you read the Oxford Handbook of whatever it is, like ethics or something, the takeaways you're going to get from that are just better than the takeaways you're going to get from a summary of the state of the knowledge in any prior year. At least. Unless something weird happened. And I don't know. I don't know if that makes sense.LAURA: I think we're talking about two different things, though. Okay. In terms of knowledge about logic or something or, I don't know, argumentation about trying to derive the correct moral theory or something, versus how should we think about our own lives. I don't see any reason as to why the framework of virtue theory is incorrect and just because it's old. There's many virtue theorists now who are like, oh yeah, they were really on to something and we need to adapt it for the times in which we live and the kind of societies we live in now. But it's still like there was a huge kernel of truth in at least the way of thinking that Aristotle put forth in terms of balancing the different virtues that you care about and trying to find. I think this is true. Right? Like take one virtue of his humor. You don't want to be on one extreme where you're just basically a meme your entire life. Everybody thinks you're funny, but that's just not very serious. But you don't want to be a boar and so you want to find somewhere in the middle where it's like you have a good sense of humor, but you can still function and be respected by other people.AARON: Yeah. Once again, I agree. Well, I don't agree with everything. I agree with a lot of what you just said. I think there was like two main points of either confusion or disagreement. And like, the first one is that I definitely think, no, Aristotle shouldn't be discounted or like his ideas or virtue ethics or anything like that shouldn't be discounted because they were canonical texts or something were written a long time ago. I guess it's just like a presumption that I have a pretty strong presumption that conditional on them being good, they would also be written about today. And so you don't actually need to go back to the founding texts and then in fact, you probably shouldn't because the good stuff will be explained better and not in weird it looks like weird terms. The terms are used differently and they're like translations from Aramaic or whatever. Probably not Aramaic, probably something else. And yeah, I'm not sure if you.LAURA: Agree with this because we have certain assumptions about what words like purpose mean now that we're probably a bit richer in the old conception of them like telos or happiness. Right. Udaimnia is much better concept and to read the original text and see how those different concepts work together is actually quite enriching compared to how do people use these words now. And it would take like I don't know, I think there just is a lot of value of looking at how these were originally conceived because popularizers of the works now or people who are seriously doing philosophy using these concepts. You just don't have the background knowledge that's necessary to understand them fully if you don't read the canonical text.AARON: Yeah, I think that would be true. If you are a native speaker. Do you know Greek? If you know Greek, this is like dumb because then you're just right.LAURA: I did take a quarter of it.AARON: Oh God. Oh my God. I don't know if that counts, but that's like more than anybody should ever take. No, I'm just kidding. That's very cool. No, because I was going to say if you're a native speaker of Greek and you have the connotations of the word eudaimonia and you were like living in the temper shuttle, I would say. Yeah, that's true actually. That's a lot of nuanced, connotation and context that definitely gets lost with translation. But once you take the jump of reading English translations of the texts, not you may as well but there's nothing super special. You're not getting any privileged knowledge from saying the word eudaimonia as opposed to just saying some other term as a reference to that concept or something. You're absorbing the connotation in the context via English, I guess, via the mind of literally the translators who have like.LAURA: Yeah, well see, I tried to learn virtue theory by any other route than reading Aristotle.AARON: Oh God.LAURA: I took a course specifically on Plato and Aristotle.AARON: Sorry, I'm not laughing at you. I'm just like the opposite type of philosophy person.LAURA: But keep going. Fair. But she had us read his physics before we read Nicomachi.AARON: Think he was wrong about all that.LAURA: Stuff, but it made you understand what he meant by his teleology theory so much better in a way that I could not get if I was reading some modern thing.AARON: I don't know, I feel like you probably could. No, sorry, that's not true. I don't think you could get what Aristotle the man truly believed as well via a modern text. But is that what you? Depends. If you're trying to be a scholar of Aristotle, maybe that's important. If you're trying to find the best or truest ethics and learn the lessons of how to live, that's like a different type of task. I don't think Aristotle the man should be all that privileged in that.LAURA: If all of the modern people who are talking about virtue theory are basically Aristotle, then I don't see the difference.AARON: Oh, yeah, I guess. Fair enough. And then I would say, like, oh, well, they should probably start. Is that in fact the state of the things in virtue theory? I don't even know.LAURA: I don't know either.#2 Arjun Panickssery solves books, hobbies, and blogging, but fails to solve the Sleeping Beauty problem because he's wrong on that one [00:10:47]All right, next, Arjun Panixery and I explore the effectiveness of reading books in retaining and incorporating knowledge, discussing the value of long form content and the impact of great literary works on understanding and shaping personal worldviews.ARJUN: Oh, you were in the book chat, though. The book rant group chat, right?AARON: Yeah, I think I might have just not read any of it. So do you want to fill me in on what I should have read?ARJUN: Yeah, it's group chat of a bunch of people where we were arguing about a bunch of claims related to books. One of them is that most people don't remember pretty much anything from books that they read, right? They read a book and then, like, a few months later, if you ask them about it, they'll just say one page's worth of information or maybe like, a few paragraphs. The other is that what is it exactly? It's that if you read a lot of books, it could be that you just incorporate the information that's important into your existing models and then just forget the information. So it's actually fine. Isn't this what you wrote in your blog post or whatever? I think that's why I added you to that.AARON: Oh, thank you. I'm sorry I'm such a bad group chat participant. Yeah, honestly, I wrote that a while ago. I don't fully remember exactly what it says, but at least one of the things that it said was and that I still basically stand by, is that it's basically just like it's increasing the salience of a set of ideas more so than just filling your brain with more facts. And I think this is probably true insofar as the facts support a set of common themes or ideas that are kind of like the intellectual core of it. It would be really hard. Okay, so this is not a book, but okay. I've talked about how much I love an 80,000 hours podcast, and I've listened to, I don't think every episode, but at least 100 of the episodes. And no, you're just, like, not going to definitely I've forgotten most of the actual almost all of the actual propositional pieces of information said, but you're just not going to convince me that it's completely not affecting either model of the world or stuff that I know or whatever. I mean, there are facts that I could list. I think maybe I should try.ARJUN: Sure.AARON: Yeah. So what's your take on book other long form?ARJUN: Oh, I don't know. I'm still quite confused or I think the impetus for the group chat's creation was actually Hanania's post where he wrote the case against most books or most was in parentheses or something. I mean, there's a lot of things going on in that post. He just goes off against a bunch of different categories of books that are sort of not closely related. Like, he goes off against great. I mean, this is not the exact take he gives, but it's something like the books that are considered great are considered great literature for some sort of contingent reason, not because they're the best at getting you information that you want.AARON: This is, like, another topic. But I'm, like, anti great books. In fact, I'm anti great usually just means old and famous. So insofar as that's what we mean by I'm like, I think this is a bad thing, or, like, I don't know, aristotle is basically wrong about everything and stuff like that.ARJUN: Right, yeah. Wait, we could return to this. I guess this could also be divided into its component categories. He spends more time, though, I think, attacking a certain kind of nonfiction book that he describes as the kind of book that somebody pitches to a publisher and basically expands a single essay's worth of content into with a bunch of anecdotes and stuff. He's like, most of these books are just not very useful to read, I guess. I agree with that.AARON: Yeah. Is there one that comes to mind as, like, an? Mean, I think of Malcolm Gladwell as, like, the kind of I haven't actually read any of his stuff in a while, but I did, I think, when I started reading nonfiction or with any sort of intent, I read. A bunch of his stuff or whatever and vaguely remember that this is basically what he like for better or.ARJUN: Um yeah, I guess so. But he's almost, like, trying to do it on purpose. This is the experience that you're getting by reading a Malcolm Gladwell book. It's like talib. Right? It's just him just ranting. I'm thinking, I guess, of books that are about something. So, like, if you have a book that's know negotiation or something, it'll be filled with a bunch of anecdotes that are of dubious usefulness. Or if you get a book that's just about some sort of topic, there'll be historical trivia that's irrelevant. Maybe I can think of an example.AARON: Yeah. So the last thing I tried to read, maybe I am but haven't in a couple of weeks or whatever, is like, the Derek Parfit biography. And part of this is motivated because I don't even like biographies in general for some reason, I don't know. But I don't know. He's, like, an important guy. Some of the anecdotes that I heard were shockingly close to home for me, or not close to home, but close to my brain or something. So I was like, okay, maybe I'll see if this guy's like the smarter version of Aaron Bergman. And it's not totally true.ARJUN: Sure, I haven't read the book, but I saw tweet threads about it, as one does, and I saw things that are obviously false. Right. It's the claims that he read, like, a certain number of pages while brushing his teeth. That's, like, anatomically impossible or whatever. Did you get to that part? Or I assumed no, I also saw.AARON: That tweet and this is not something that I do, but I don't know if it's anatomically impossible. Yeah, it takes a little bit of effort to figure out how to do that, I guess. I don't think that's necessarily false or whatever, but this is probably not the most important.ARJUN: Maybe it takes long time to brush his teeth.#3: Nathan Barnard on how financial regulation can inform AI regulation [00:17:16]In this next segment, Nathan Barnard and I dive into the complexities of AI regulation, including potential challenges and outcomes of governing AI in relation to economic growth and existential security. And we compare it to banking regulation as well.AARON: Yeah, I don't know. I just get gloomy for, I think justified reasons when people talk about, oh yeah, here's the nine step process that has to take place and then maybe there's like a 20% chance that we'll be able to regulate AI effectively. I'm being facetious or exaggerating, something like that, but not by a gigantic amount.NATHAN: I think this is pretty radically different to my mainline expectation.AARON: What's your mainline expectation?NATHAN: I suppose I expect like AI to come with an increasing importance past economy and to come up to really like a very large fraction of the economy before really crazy stuff starts happening and this world is going very anonymous. Anonymous, anonymous, anonymous. I know the word is it'd be very unusual if this extremely large sector economy which was impacted like a very large number of people's lives remains like broadly unregulated.AARON: It'll be regulated, but just maybe in a stupid way.NATHAN: Sure, yes, maybe in a stupid way. I suppose critically, do you expect the stupid way to be like too conservative or too like the specific question of AI accenture it's basically too conservative or too lenient or I just won't be able to interact with this.AARON: I guess generally too lenient, but also mostly on a different axis where just like I don't actually know enough. I don't feel like I've read learned about various governance proposals to have a good object level take on this. But my broad prior is that there are just a lot of ways to for anything. There's a lot of ways to regulate something poorly. And the reason insofar as anything isn't regulated poorly it's because of a lot of trial and error.NATHAN: Maybe.AARON: I mean, there's probably exceptions, right? I don't know. Tax Americana is like maybe we didn't just kept winning wars starting with World War II. I guess just like maybe like a counterexample or something like that.NATHAN: Yeah, I think I still mostly disagree with this. Oh, cool. Yeah. I suppose I see a much like broader spectrum between bad regulation and good regulation. I agree it's like very small amount. The space of optimal regulation is very small. But I think we have to hit that space for regulation to be helpful. Especially in this especially if you consider that if you sort of buy the AI extension safety risk then the downsides of it's not this quite fine balancing act between too much whether consumer protection and siphoning competition and cycling innovation too much. It's like trying to end this quite specific, very bad outcome which is maybe much worse than going somewhat slowering economic growth, at least somewhat particularly if we think we're going to get something. This is very explosive rates for economic growth really quite soon. And the cost of slowing down economic growth by weather even by quite a large percentage, very small compared to the cost of sort of an accidental catastrophe. I sort of think of Sony iconic growth as the main cost of main way regulation goes wrong currently.AARON: I think in an actual sense that is correct. There's the question of like okay, Congress in the states like it's better than nothing. I'm glad it's not anarchy in terms of like I'm glad we have a legislature.NATHAN: I'm also glad the United States.AARON: How reasons responsive is Congress? I don't think reasons responsive enough to make it so that the first big law that gets passed insofar as there is one or if there is one is on the pareto frontier trading off between economic growth and existential security. It's going to be way inside of that production frontier or whatever. It's going to suck on every action, maybe not every act but at least like some relevant actions.NATHAN: Yeah that doesn't seem like obviously true to me. I think Dodge Frank was quite a good law.AARON: That came after 2008, right?NATHAN: Yeah correct. Yeah there you go. No, I agree. I'm not especially confident about doing regulation before there's some quite bad before there's a quite bad warning shot and yes, if we're in world where we have no warning shots and we're just like blindsided by everyone getting turned into everyone getting stripped their Athens within 3 seconds, this is not good. Both in law we do have one of those shots and I think Glass Seagull is good law. Not good law is a technical term. I think Glass Steagall was a good piece of legislation. I think DoD Frank was a good piece of legislation. I think the 2008 Seamless Bill was good piece of legislation. I think the Troubled Assets Relief Program is a good piece of piece of legislation.AARON: I recognize these terms and I know some of them and others I do not know the contents of.NATHAN: Yeah so Glass Eagle was the financial regulation passed in 1933 after Great Depression. The Tropical Asset Relief Program was passed in I think 2008, moved 2009 to help recapitalize banks. Dodge Frank was the sort of landmark post financial cris piece of legislation passed in 2011. I think these are all good pieces of legislation now. I think like financial regulation is probably unusually good amongst US legislation. This is like a quite weak take, I guess. It's unusually.AARON: So. I don't actually know the pre depression financial history at all but I feel like the more relevant comparison to the 21st century era is what was the regulatory regime in 1925 or something? I just don't know.NATHAN: Yeah, I know a bit. I haven't read this stuff especially deeply and so I don't want to don't want to be so overcompensant here but sort of the core pieces which were sort of important for the sort of the Great Depression going very badly was yeah, no distinction between commercial banks and investment banks. Yes, such a bank could take much riskier. Much riskier. Things with like custom deposits than they could from 1933 until the Peel Glass Eagle. And combine that with no deposit insurance and if you sort of have the combination of banks being able to do quite risky things with depositors money and no deposit insurance, this is quite dangerously known. And glassy repeal.AARON: I'm an expert in the sense that I have the Wikipedia page up. Well, yeah, there was a bunch of things. Basically. There's the first bank of the United States. There's the second bank of the United States. There's the free banking era. There was the era of national banks. Yada, yada, yada. It looks like 19. Seven was there was some panic. I vaguely remember this from like, AP US history, like seven years ago or.NATHAN: Yes, I suppose in short, I sort of agree that the record of sort of non post Cris legislation is like, not very good, but I think record of post Cris legislation really, at least in the financial sector, really is quite good. I'm sure lots of people disagree with this, but this is my take.#4 Winston Oswald-Drummond on the tractability of reducing s-risk, ethics, and more [00:27:48]Up next, Winston Oswald Drummond and I talk about the effectiveness and impact of donating to various research organizations, such as suffering-focused S-risk organizations. We discuss tractability, expected value, and essentially where we should give our money.AARON: Okay, nice. Yeah. Where to go from here? I feel like largely we're on the same page, I feel like.WINSTON: Yeah. Is your disagreement mostly tractability? Then? Maybe we should get into the disagreement.AARON: Yeah. I don't even know if I've specified, but insofar as I have one, yes, it's trapped ability. This is the reason why I haven't donated very much to anywhere for money reasons. But insofar as I have, I have not donated to Clrcrs because I don't see a theory of change that connects the research currently being done to actually reducing s risks. And I feel like there must be something because there's a lot of extremely smart people at both of these orgs or whatever, and clearly they thought about this and maybe the answer is it's very general and the outcome is just so big in magnitude that anything kind.WINSTON: Of that is part of it, I think. Yeah, part of it is like an expected value thing and also it's just very neglected. So it's like you want some people working on this, I think, at least. Even if it's unlikely to work. Yeah, even that might be underselling it, though. I mean, I do think there's people at CRS and Clr, like talking to people at AI labs and some people in politics and these types of things. And hopefully the research is a way to know what to try to get done at these places. You want to have some concrete recommendations and I think obviously people have to also be willing to listen to you, but I think there is some work being done on that and research is partially just like a community building thing as well. It's a credible signal that you were smart and have thought about this, and so it gives people reason to listen to you and maybe that mostly pays off later on in the future.AARON: Yeah, that all sounds like reasonable. And I guess one thing is that I just don't there's definitely things I mean, first of all, I haven't really stayed up to date on what's going on, so I haven't even done I've done zero research for this podcast episode, for example. Very responsible and insofar as I've know things about these. Orgs. It's just based on what's on their website at some given time. So insofar as there's outreach going on, not like behind the scenes, but just not in a super public way, or I guess you could call that behind the scenes. I just don't have reason to, I guess, know about that. And I guess, yeah, I'm pretty comfortable. I don't even know if this is considered biting a bullet for the crowd that will be listening to this, if that's anybody but with just like yeah, saying a very small change for a very large magnitude, just, like, checks out. You can just do expected value reasoning and that's basically correct, like a correct way of thinking about ethics. But even I don't know how much you know specifically or, like, how much you're allowed want to reveal, but if there was a particular alignment agenda that I guess you in a broad sense, like the suffering focused research community thought was particularly promising and relative to other tractable, I guess, generic alignment recommendations. And you were doing research on that and trying to push that into the alignment mainstream, which is not very mainstream. And then with the hope that that jumps into the AI mainstream. Even if that's kind of a long chain of events. I think I would be a lot more enthusiastic about I don't know that type of agenda, because it feels like there's like a particular story you're telling where it cashes out in the end. You know what I mean?WINSTON: Yeah, I'm not the expert on this stuff, but I do think you just mean I think there's some things about influencing alignment and powerful AI for sure. Maybe not like a full on, like, this is our alignment proposal and it also handles Sris. But some things we could ask AI labs that are already building, like AGI, we could say, can you also implement these sort of, like, safeguards so if you failed alignment, you fail sort of gracefully and don't cause lots of suffering.AARON: Right?WINSTON: Yeah. Or maybe there are other things too, which also seem potentially more tractable. Even if you solve alignment in some sense, like aligning with whatever the human operator tells the AI to do, then you can also get the issue that malevolent actors can take control of the AI and then what they want also causes lots of suffering that type of alignment wouldn't. Yeah, and I guess I tend to be somewhat skeptical of coherent extrapolated volition and things like this, where the idea is sort of like it'll just figure out our values and do the right thing. So, yeah, there's some ways to push on this without having a full alignment plan, but I'm not sure if that counts as what you were saying.AARON: No, I guess it does. Yeah, it sounds like it does. And it could be that I'm just kind of mistaken about the degree to which that type of research and outreach is going on. That sounds like it's at least partially true.#5: Nathan Barnard (again!) on why general intelligence is basically fake [00:34:10]Up next, Nathan Barnard is back for his second episode. And we talked about the nature of general intelligence, its relationship with language and the implications of specialized brain functions on the understanding of human cognitive abilities.NATHAN: Yes. This like symbolic like symbolic, symbolic reasoning stuff. Yeah. So I think if I was, like, making the if I was, like, making the case for general intelligence being real, I wouldn't have symbolic reasoning, but I would have language stuff. I'd have this hierarchical structure thing, which.AARON: I would probably so I think of at least most uses of language and central examples as a type of symbolic reasoning because words mean things. They're like yeah. Pointers to objects or something like that.NATHAN: Yeah, I think it's like, pretty confidence isn't where this isn't a good enough description of general intelligence. So, for instance so if you bit in your brain called, I'm using a checklist, I don't fuck this up vernacular, I'm not making this cool. Lots of connects to use words like pointers as these arbitrary signs happens mostly in this area of the brain called Berkeley's area. But very famously, you can have Berkeley's epaxics who lose the ability to do language comprehension and use the ability to consistently use words as pointers, as signs to point to things, but still have perfect good spatial reasoning abilities. And so, conversely, people with brokers of fascia who fuck up, who have the broker's reason their brain fucks up will not be able to form fluent sentences and have some problems like unsigned syntax, and they'll still be able to have very good spatial reasoning. It could still, for instance, be like, good engineers. Would you like many problems which, like, cost engineering?AARON: Yeah, I totally buy that. I don't think language is the central thing. I think it's like an outgrowth of, like I don't know, there's like a simplified model I could make, which is like it's like an outgrowth of whatever general intelligence really is. But whatever the best spatial or graphical model is, I don't think language is cognition.NATHAN: Yes, this is a really big debate in psycholinguistics as to whether language is like an outgrowth of other abilities like the brain has, whether language whether there's very specialized language modules. Yeah, this is just like a very live debate in psycholinguistics moments. I actually do lean towards the reason I've been talking about this actually just going to explain this hierarchical structure thing? Yeah, I keep talking about it. So one theory for how you can comprehend new sentences, like, the dominant theory in linguistics, how you can comprehend new sentences, um, is you break them up into, like you break them up into, like, chunks, and you form these chunks together in this, like, tree structure. So something like, if you hear, like, a totally novel sentence like the pit bull mastiff flopped around deliciously or something, you can comprehend what the sentence means despite the fact you've never heard it. Theory behind this is you saw yes, this can be broken up into this tree structure, where the different, like, ah, like like bits of the sentence. So, like like the mastiff would be like, one bit, and then you have, like, another bit, which is like, the mastiff I can't remember I said rolled around, so that'd be like, another bit, and then you'd have connectors to our heart.AARON: Okay.NATHAN: So the massive rolling around one theory of one of the sort of distinctive things that humans have disabilities is like, this quite general ability to break things up into these these tree structures. This is controversial within psycholinguistics, but it's broadly an area which I broadly buy it because we do see harms to other areas of intelligence. You get much worse at, like, Ravens Progressive Matrices, for instance, when you have, like, an injury to brokers area, but, like, not worse at, like, tests like tests of space, of, like, spatial reasoning, for instance.AARON: So what is like, is there, like, a main alternative to, like, how humans.NATHAN: Understand language as far as this specificity of how we pass completely novel sentences, as far as where this is just like this is just like the the academic consensus. Okay.AARON: I mean, it sounds totally like right? I don't know.NATHAN: Yeah. But yeah, I suppose going back to saying, how far is language like an outgrowth of general intelligence? An outgrowth like general intelligence versus having much more specialized language modules? Yeah, I lean towards the latter, despite yeah, I still don't want to give too strong of a personal opinion here because I'm not a linguistic this is a podcast.AARON: You're allowed to give takes. No one's going to say this is like the academic we want takes.NATHAN: We want takes. Well, gone to my head is.AARON: I.NATHAN: Think language is not growth of other abilities. I think the main justification for this, I think, is that the loss of other abilities we see when you have damage to broker's area and verca's area.AARON: Okay, cool. So I think we basically agree on that. And also, I guess one thing to highlight is I think outgrowth can mean a couple of different things. I definitely think it's plausible. I haven't read about this. I think I did at some point, but not in a while. But outgrowth could mean temporarily or whatever. I think I'm kind of inclined to think it's not that straightforward. You could have coevolution where language per se encourages both its own development and the development of some general underlying trait or something.NATHAN: Yeah. Which seems likely.AARON: Okay, cool. So why don't humans have general intelligence?NATHAN: Right. Yeah. As I was sort of talking about previously.AARON: Okay.NATHAN: I think I think I'd like to use go back to like a high level like a high level argument is there appears to be very surprised, like, much higher levels of functional specialization in brains than you expect. You can lose much more specific abilities than you expect to be able to lose. You can lose specifically the ability a famous example is like facebindness, actually. You probably lose the ability to specifically recognize things which you're, like, an expert in.AARON: Who does it or who loses this ability.NATHAN: If you've damaged your fuse inform area, you'll lose the ability to recognize faces, but nothing else.AARON: Okay.NATHAN: And there's this general pattern that your brain is much more you can lose much more specific abilities than you expect. So, for instance, if you sort of have damage to your ventral, medial, prefrontal cortex, you can say the reasoning for why you shouldn't compulsively gamble but still compulsively gamble.AARON: For instance okay, I understand this not gambling per se, but like executive function stuff at a visceral level. Okay, keep going.NATHAN: Yeah. Some other nice examples of this. I think memory is quite intuitive. So there's like, a very famous patient called patient HM who had his hippocampus removed and so as a result, lost all declarative memory. So all memory of specific facts and things which happened in his life. He just couldn't remember any of these things, but still perfectly functioning otherwise. I think at a really high level, I think this functional specialization is probably the strongest piece of evidence against the general intelligence hypothesis. I think fundamentally, general intelligence hypothesis implies that, like, if you, like yeah, if you was, like, harm a piece of your brain, if you have some brain injury, you might like generically get worse at tasks you like, generically get worse at, like at like all task groups use general intelligence. But I think suggesting people, including general intelligence, like the ability to write, the ability to speak, maybe not speak, the ability to do math, you do have.AARON: This it's just not as easy to analyze in a Cogsy paper which IQ or whatever. So there is something where if somebody has a particular cubic centimeter of their brain taken out, that's really excellent evidence about what that cubic centimeter does or whatever, but that non spatial modification is just harder to study and analyze. I guess we'll give people drugs, right? Suppose that set aside the psychometric stuff. But suppose that general intelligence is mostly a thing or whatever and you actually can ratchet it up and down. This is probably just true, right? You can probably give somebody different doses of, like, various drugs. I don't know, like laughing gas, like like, yeah, like probably, probably weed. Like I don't know.NATHAN: So I think this just probably isn't true. Your working memory corrects quite strongly with G and having better working memory generic can make you much better at lots of tasks if you have like.AARON: Yeah.NATHAN: Sorry, but this is just like a specific ability. It's like just specifically your working memory, which is improved if you go memory to a drugs. Improved working memory. I think it's like a few things like memory attention, maybe something like decision making, which are all like extremely useful abilities and improve how well other cognitive abilities work. But they're all separate things. If you improved your attention abilities, your working memory, but you sort of had some brain injury, which sort of meant you sort of had lost ability to pass syntax, you would not get better at passing syntax. And you can also use things separately. You can also improve attention and improve working memory separately, which just it's not just this one dial which you can turn up.AARON: There's good reason to expect that we can't turn it up because evolution is already sort of like maximizing, given the relevant constraints. Right. So you would need to be looking just like injuries. Maybe there are studies where they try to increase people's, they try to add a cubic centimeter to someone's brain, but normally it's like the opposite. You start from some high baseline and then see what faculties you lose. Just to clarify, I guess.NATHAN: Yeah, sorry, I think I've lost the you still think there probably is some general intelligence ability to turn up?AARON: Honestly, I think I haven't thought about this nearly as much as you. I kind of don't know what I think at some level. If I could just write down all of the different components and there are like 74 of them and what I think of a general intelligence consists of does that make it I guess in some sense, yeah, that does make it less of an ontologically legit thing or something. I think I think the thing I want to get the motivating thing here is that with humans yet you can like we know humans range in IQ, and there's, like, setting aside a very tiny subset of people with severe brain injuries or development disorders or whatever. Almost everybody has some sort of symbolic reasoning that they can do to some degree. Whereas the smartest maybe I'm wrong about this, but as far as I know, the smartest squirrel is not going to be able to have something semantically represent something else. And that's what I intuitively want to appeal to, you know what I mean?NATHAN: Yeah, I know what you're guessing at. So I think there's like two interesting things here. So I think one is, could a squirrel do this? I'm guessing a squirrel couldn't do this, but a dog can, or like a dog probably can. A chimpanzee definitely can.AARON: Do what?NATHAN: Chimpanzees can definitely learn to associate arbitrary signs, things in the world with arbitrary signs.AARON: Yes, but maybe I'm just adding on epicentercles here, but I feel like correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that maybe I'm just wrong about this, but I would assume that Chicken Tees cannot use that sign in a domain that is qualitatively different from the ones they've been in. Right. So, like, a dog will know that a certain sign means sit or whatever, but maybe that's not a good I.NATHAN: Don'T know think this is basically not true.AARON: Okay.NATHAN: And we sort of know this from teaching.AARON: Teaching.NATHAN: There's like a famously cocoa de guerrilla. Also a bonobo whose name I can't remember were taught sign language. And the thing they were consistently bad at was, like, putting together sentences they could learn quite large vocabularies learning to associate by large, I mean in the hundreds of words, in the low hundreds of words which they could consistently use consistently use correctly.AARON: What do you mean by, like, in what sense? What is bonobo using?NATHAN: A very famous and quite controversial example is like, coco gorilla was like, saw a swan outside and signed water bird. That's like, a controversial example. But other things, I think, which are controversial here is like, the syntax part of putting water and bird together is the controversial part, but it's not the controversial part that she could see a swan and call that a bird.AARON: Yeah, I mean, this is kind of just making me think, okay, maybe the threshold for D is just like at the chimp level or something. We are like or whatever the most like that. Sure. If a species really can generate from a prefix and a suffix or whatever, a concept that they hadn't learned before.NATHAN: Yeah, this is a controversial this is like a controversial example of that the addition to is the controversial part. Yeah, I suppose maybe brings back to why I think this matters is will there be this threshold which AIS cross such that their reasoning after this is qualitatively different to their reasoning previously? And this is like two things. One, like a much faster increase in AI capabilities and two, alignment techniques which worked on systems which didn't have g will no longer work. Systems which do have g. Brings back to why I think this actually matters. But I think if we're sort of accepting it, I think elephants probably also if you think that if we're saying, like, g is like a level of chimpanzees, chimpanzees just, like, don't don't look like quantitatively different to, like, don't look like that qualitatively different to, like, other animals. Now, lots of other animals live in similar complex social groups. Lots of other animals use tools.AARON: Yeah, sure. For one thing, I don't think there's not going to be a discontinuity in the same way that there wasn't a discontinuity at any point between humans evolution from the first prokaryotic cells or whatever are eukaryotic one of those two or both, I guess. My train of thought. Yes, I know it's controversial, but let's just suppose that the sign language thing was legit with the waterbird and that's not like a random one off fluke or something. Then maybe this is just some sort of weird vestigial evolutionary accident that actually isn't very beneficial for chimpanzees and they just stumbled their way into and then it just enabled them to it enables evolution to bootstrap Shimp genomes into human genomes. Because at some the smartest or whatever actually, I don't know. Honestly, I don't have a great grasp of evolutionary biology or evolution at all. But, yeah, it could just be not that helpful for chimps and helpful for an extremely smart chimp that looks kind of different or something like that.NATHAN: Yeah. So I suppose just like the other thing she's going on here, I don't want to keep banging on about this, but you can lose the language. You can lose linguistic ability. And it's just, like, happens this happens in stroke victims, for instance. It's not that rare. Just, like, lose linguistic ability, but still have all the other abilities which we sort of think of as like, general intelligence, which I think would be including the general intelligence, like, hypothesis.AARON: I agree that's, like, evidence against it. I just don't think it's very strong evidence, partially because I think there is a real school of thought that says that language is fundamental. Like, language drives thought. Language is, like, primary to thought or something. And I don't buy that. If you did buy that, I think this would be, like, more damning evidence.#6 Daniel Filan on why I'm wrong about ethics (+ Oppenheimer and what names mean in like a hardcore phil of language sense) [00:56:54][Note: I forgot to record an intro segment here. Sorry!]AARON: Yeah. Yes. I'm also anti scam. Right, thank you. Okay, so I think that thing that we were talking about last time we talked, which is like the thing I think we actually both know stuff about instead of just like, repeating New York Times articles is my nuanced ethics takes and why you think about talk about that and then we can just also branch off from there.DANIEL: Yeah, we can talk about that.AARON: Maybe see where that did. I luckily I have a split screen up, so I can pull up things. Maybe this is kind of like egotistical or something to center my particular view, but you've definitely given me some of the better pushback or whatever that I haven't gotten that much feedback of any kind, I guess, but it's still interesting to hear your take. So basically my ethical position or the thing that I think is true is that which I think is not the default view. I think most people think this is wrong is that total utilitarianism does not imply that for some amount of suffering that could be created there exists some other extremely large arbitrarily, large amount of happiness that could also be created which would morally justify the former. Basically.DANIEL: So you think that even under total utilitarianism there can be big amounts of suffering such that there's no way to morally tip the calculus. However much pleasure you can create, it's just not going to outweigh the fact that you inflicted that much suffering on some people.AARON: Yeah, and I'd highlight the word inflicted if something's already there and you can't do anything about it, that's kind of neither here nor there as it pertains to your actions or something. So it's really about you increasing, you creating suffering that wouldn't have otherwise been created. Yeah. It's also been a couple of months since I've thought about this in extreme detail, although I thought about it quite a bit. Yeah.DANIEL: Maybe I should say my contrary view, I guess, when you say that, I don't know, does total utilitarianism imply something or not? I'm like, well, presumably it depends on what we mean by total utilitarianism. Right. So setting that aside, I think that thesis is probably false. I think that yeah. You can offset great amounts of suffering with great amounts of pleasure, even for arbitrary amounts of suffering.AARON: Okay. I do think that position is like the much more common and even, I'd say default view. Do you agree with that? It's sort of like the implicit position of people who are of self described total utilitarians who haven't thought a ton about this particular question.DANIEL: Yeah, I think it's probably the implicit default. I think it's the implicit default in ethical theory or something. I think that in practice, when you're being a utilitarian, I don't know, normally, if you're trying to be a utilitarian and you see yourself inflicting a large amount of suffering, I don't know. I do think there's some instinct to be like, is there any way we can get around this?AARON: Yeah, for sure. And to be clear, I don't think this would look like a thought experiment. I think what it looks like in practice and also I will throw in caveats as I see necessary, but I think what it looks like in practice is like, spreading either wild animals or humans or even sentient digital life through the universe. That's in a non as risky way, but that's still just maybe like, say, making the earth, making multiple copies of humanity or something like that. That would be an example that's probably not like an example of what an example of creating suffering would be. For example, just creating another duplicate of earth. Okay.DANIEL: Anything that would be like so much suffering that we shouldn't even the pleasures of earth outweighs.AARON: Not necessarily, which is kind of a cop out. But my inclination is that if you include wild animals, the answer is yes, that creating another earth especially. Yeah, but I'm much more committed to some amount. It's like some amount than this particular time and place in human industry is like that or whatever.DANIEL: Okay, can I get a feel of some other concrete cases to see?AARON: Yeah.DANIEL: So one example that's on my mind is, like, the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, right? So the standard case for this is, like, yeah, what? A hundred OD thousand people died? Like, quite terrible, quite awful. And a lot of them died, I guess a lot of them were sort of some people were sort of instantly vaporized, but a lot of people died in extremely painful ways. But the countercase is like, well, the alternative to that would have been like, an incredibly grueling land invasion of Japan, where many more people would have died or know regardless of what the actual alternatives were. If you think about the atomic bombings, do you think that's like the kind of infliction of suffering where there's just not an offsetting amount of pleasure that could make that okay?AARON: My intuition is no, that it is offsettable, but I would also emphasize that given the actual historical contingencies, the alternative, the implicit case for the bombing includes reducing suffering elsewhere rather than merely creating happiness. There can definitely be two bad choices that you have to make or something. And my claim doesn't really pertain to that, at least not directly.#7: Holly Elmore on AI pause, wild animal welfare, and some cool biology things I couldn't fully follow but maybe you can [01:04:00]Up next, Holly Elmore and I discuss the complexities and implications of AI development and open sourcing. We talk about protests and ethical considerations around her, um, uh, campaign to pause the development of frontier AI systems until, until we can tell that they're safe.AARON: So what's the plan? Do you have a plan? You don't have to have a plan. I don't have plans very much.HOLLY: Well, right now I'm hopeful about the UK AI summit. Pause AI and I have planned a multi city protest on the 21 October to encourage the UK AI Safety Summit to focus on safety first and to have as a topic arranging a pause or that of negotiation. There's a lot of a little bit upsetting advertising for that thing that's like, we need to keep up capabilities too. And I just think that's really a secondary objective. And that's how I wanted to be focused on safety. So I'm hopeful about the level of global coordination that we're already seeing. It's going so much faster than we thought. Already the UN Secretary General has been talking about this and there have been meetings about this. It's happened so much faster at the beginning of this year. Nobody thought we could talk about nobody was thinking we'd be talking about this as a mainstream topic. And then actually governments have been very receptive anyway. So right now I'm focused on other than just influencing opinion, the targets I'm focused on, or things like encouraging these international like, I have a protest on Friday, my first protest that I'm leading and kind of nervous that's against Meta. It's at the Meta building in San Francisco about their sharing of model weights. They call it open source. It's like not exactly open source, but I'm probably not going to repeat that message because it's pretty complicated to explain. I really love the pause message because it's just so hard to misinterpret and it conveys pretty clearly what we want very quickly. And you don't have a lot of bandwidth and advocacy. You write a lot of materials for a protest, but mostly what people see is the title.AARON: That's interesting because I sort of have the opposite sense. I agree that in terms of how many informational bits you're conveying in a particular phrase, pause AI is simpler, but in some sense it's not nearly as obvious. At least maybe I'm more of a tech brain person or whatever. But why that is good, as opposed to don't give extremely powerful thing to the worst people in the world. That's like a longer everyone.HOLLY: Maybe I'm just weird. I've gotten the feedback from open source ML people is the number one thing is like, it's too late, there's already super powerful models. There's nothing you can do to stop us, which sounds so villainous, I don't know if that's what they mean. Well, actually the number one message is you're stupid, you're not an ML engineer. Which like, okay, number two is like, it's too late, there's nothing you can do. There's all of these other and Meta is not even the most powerful generator of models that it share of open source models. I was like, okay, fine. And I don't know, I don't think that protesting too much is really the best in these situations. I just mostly kind of let that lie. I could give my theory of change on this and why I'm focusing on Meta. Meta is a large company I'm hoping to have influence on. There is a Meta building in San Francisco near where yeah, Meta is the biggest company that is doing this and I think there should be a norm against model weight sharing. I was hoping it would be something that other employees of other labs would be comfortable attending and that is a policy that is not shared across the labs. Obviously the biggest labs don't do it. So OpenAI is called OpenAI but very quickly decided not to do that. Yeah, I kind of wanted to start in a way that made it more clear than pause AI. Does that anybody's welcome something? I thought a one off issue like this that a lot of people could agree and form a coalition around would be good. A lot of people think that this is like a lot of the open source ML people think know this is like a secret. What I'm saying is secretly an argument for tyranny. I just want centralization of power. I just think that there are elites that are better qualified to run everything. It was even suggested I didn't mention China. It even suggested that I was racist because I didn't think that foreign people could make better AIS than Meta.AARON: I'm grimacing here. The intellectual disagreeableness, if that's an appropriate term or something like that. Good on you for standing up to some pretty bad arguments.HOLLY: Yeah, it's not like that worth it. I'm lucky that I truly am curious about what people think about stuff like that. I just find it really interesting. I spent way too much time understanding the alt. Right. For instance, I'm kind of like sure I'm on list somewhere because of the forums I was on just because I was interested and it is something that serves me well with my adversaries. I've enjoyed some conversations with people where I kind of like because my position on all this is that look, I need to be convinced and the public needs to be convinced that this is safe before we go ahead. So I kind of like not having to be the smart person making the arguments. I kind of like being like, can you explain like I'm five. I still don't get it. How does this work?AARON: Yeah, no, I was thinking actually not long ago about open source. Like the phrase has such a positive connotation and in a lot of contexts it really is good. I don't know. I'm glad that random tech I don't know, things from 2004 or whatever, like the reddit source code is like all right, seems cool that it's open source. I don't actually know if that was how that right. But yeah, I feel like maybe even just breaking down what the positive connotation comes from and why it's in people's self. This is really what I was thinking about, is like, why is it in people's self interest to open source things that they made and that might break apart the allure or sort of ethical halo that it has around it? And I was thinking it probably has something to do with, oh, this is like how if you're a tech person who makes some cool product, you could try to put a gate around it by keeping it closed source and maybe trying to get intellectual property or something. But probably you're extremely talented already, or pretty wealthy. Definitely can be hired in the future. And if you're not wealthy yet I don't mean to put things in just materialist terms, but basically it could easily be just like in a yeah, I think I'll probably take that bit out because I didn't mean to put it in strictly like monetary terms, but basically it just seems like pretty plausibly in an arbitrary tech person's self interest, broadly construed to, in fact, open source their thing, which is totally fine and normal.HOLLY: I think that's like 99 it's like a way of showing magnanimity showing, but.AARON: I don't make this sound so like, I think 99.9% of human behavior is like this. I'm not saying it's like, oh, it's some secret, terrible self interested thing, but just making it more mechanistic. Okay, it's like it's like a status thing. It's like an advertising thing. It's like, okay, you're not really in need of direct economic rewards, or sort of makes sense to play the long game in some sense, and this is totally normal and fine, but at the end of the day, there's reasons why it makes sense, why it's in people's self interest to open source.HOLLY: Literally, the culture of open source has been able to bully people into, like, oh, it's immoral to keep it for yourself. You have to release those. So it's just, like, set the norms in a lot of ways, I'm not the bully. Sounds bad, but I mean, it's just like there is a lot of pressure. It looks bad if something is closed source.AARON: Yeah, it's kind of weird that Meta I don't know, does Meta really think it's in their I don't know. Most economic take on this would be like, oh, they somehow think it's in their shareholders interest to open source.HOLLY: There are a lot of speculations on why they're doing this. One is that? Yeah, their models aren't as good as the top labs, but if it's open source, then open source quote, unquote then people will integrate it llama Two into their apps. Or People Will Use It And Become I don't know, it's a little weird because I don't know why using llama Two commits you to using llama Three or something, but it just ways for their models to get in in places where if you just had to pay for their models too, people would go for better ones. That's one thing. Another is, yeah, I guess these are too speculative. I don't want to be seen repeating them since I'm about to do this purchase. But there's speculation that it's in best interests in various ways to do this. I think it's possible also that just like so what happened with the release of Llama One is they were going to allow approved people to download the weights, but then within four days somebody had leaked Llama One on four chan and then they just were like, well, whatever, we'll just release the weights. And then they released Llama Two with the weights from the beginning. And it's not like 100% clear that they intended to do full open source or what they call Open source. And I keep saying it's not open source because this is like a little bit of a tricky point to make. So I'm not emphasizing it too much. So they say that they're open source, but they're not. The algorithms are not open source. There are open source ML models that have everything open sourced and I don't think that that's good. I think that's worse. So I don't want to criticize them for that. But they're saying it's open source because there's all this goodwill associated with open source. But actually what they're doing is releasing the product for free or like trade secrets even you could say like things that should be trade secrets. And yeah, they're telling people how to make it themselves. So it's like a little bit of a they're intentionally using this label that has a lot of positive connotations but probably according to Open Source Initiative, which makes the open Source license, it should be called something else or there should just be like a new category for LLMs being but I don't want things to be more open. It could easily sound like a rebuke that it should be more open to make that point. But I also don't want to call it Open source because I think Open source software should probably does deserve a lot of its positive connotation, but they're not releasing the part, that the software part because that would cut into their business. I think it would be much worse. I think they shouldn't do it. But I also am not clear on this because the Open Source ML critics say that everyone does have access to the same data set as Llama Two. But I don't know. Llama Two had 7 billion tokens and that's more than GPT Four. And I don't understand all of the details here. It's possible that the tokenization process was different or something and that's why there were more. But Meta didn't say what was in the longitude data set and usually there's some description given of what's in the data set that led some people to speculate that maybe they're using private data. They do have access to a lot of private data that shouldn't be. It's not just like the common crawl backup of the Internet. Everybody's basing their training on that and then maybe some works of literature they're not supposed to. There's like a data set there that is in question, but metas is bigger than bigger than I think well, sorry, I don't have a list in front of me. I'm not going to get stuff wrong, but it's bigger than kind of similar models and I thought that they have access to extra stuff that's not public. And it seems like people are asking if maybe that's part of the training set. But yeah, the ML people would have or the open source ML people that I've been talking to would have believed that anybody who's decent can just access all of the training sets that they've all used.AARON: Aside, I tried to download in case I'm guessing, I don't know, it depends how many people listen to this. But in one sense, for a competent ML engineer, I'm sure open source really does mean that. But then there's people like me. I don't know. I knew a little bit of R, I think. I feel like I caught on the very last boat where I could know just barely enough programming to try to learn more, I guess. Coming out of college, I don't know, a couple of months ago, I tried to do the thing where you download Llama too, but I tried it all and now I just have like it didn't work. I have like a bunch of empty folders and I forget got some error message or whatever. Then I tried to train my own tried to train my own model on my MacBook. It just printed. That's like the only thing that a language model would do because that was like the most common token in the training set. So anyway, I'm just like, sorry, this is not important whatsoever.HOLLY: Yeah, I feel like torn about this because I used to be a genomicist and I used to do computational biology and it was not machine learning, but I used a highly parallel GPU cluster. And so I know some stuff about it and part of me wants to mess around with it, but part of me feels like I shouldn't get seduced by this. I am kind of worried that this has happened in the AI safety community. It's always been people who are interested in from the beginning, it was people who are interested in singularity and then realized there was this problem. And so it's always been like people really interested in tech and wanting to be close to it. And I think we've been really influenced by our direction, has been really influenced by wanting to be where the action is with AI development. And I don't know that that was right.AARON: Not personal, but I guess individual level I'm not super worried about people like you and me losing the plot by learning more about ML on their personal.HOLLY: You know what I mean? But it does just feel sort of like I guess, yeah, this is maybe more of like a confession than, like a point. But it does feel a little bit like it's hard for me to enjoy in good conscience, like, the cool stuff.AARON: Okay. Yeah.HOLLY: I just see people be so attached to this as their identity. They really don't want to go in a direction of not pursuing tech because this is kind of their whole thing. And what would they do if we weren't working toward AI? This is a big fear that people express to me with they don't say it in so many words usually, but they say things like, well, I don't want AI to never get built about a pause. Which, by the way, just to clear up, my assumption is that a pause would be unless society ends for some other reason, that a pause would eventually be lifted. It couldn't be forever. But some people are worried that if you stop the momentum now, people are just so luddite in their insides that we would just never pick it up again. Or something like that. And, yeah, there's some identity stuff that's been expressed. Again, not in so many words to me about who will we be if we're just sort of like activists instead of working on.AARON: Maybe one thing that we might actually disagree on. It's kind of important is whether so I think we both agree that Aipause is better than the status quo, at least broadly, whatever. I know that can mean different things, but yeah, maybe I'm not super convinced, actually, that if I could just, like what am I trying to say? Maybe at least right now, if I could just imagine the world where open eye and Anthropic had a couple more years to do stuff and nobody else did, that would be better. I kind of think that they are reasonably responsible actors. And so I don't k

Andrew Gazdecki is the founder and CEO of MicroAcquire, the world's most founder-friendly startup acquisition marketplace. MicroAcquire helps entrepreneurs buy and sell startups.After founding and later selling two successful startups, Andrew decided there needed to be a better way to connect buyers and sellers in the startup marketplace. He founded MicroAcquire to fill this void in the startup acquisition arena.In this episode, Andrew shares how he grew his Twitter audience from 30,000 to 70,000 followers in a few short months. He uses his connections with others, his partnerships, his brand, and savvy marketing techniques to boost engagement and attract followers. It's a fun and entertaining episode, and I think you're going to enjoy it.In this episode, you'll learn: The one thing you should spend at least half of your startup's budget on Proven strategies and tactics to grow your Twitter account How to bootstrap your business and retain your autonomy Links & Resources TechCrunch Cameo Effie Empire Flippers Flippa Bizness Apps Sam Parr Stripe Baremetrics ChartMogul Bumble Brandarrow Bootstrappers.com Y Combinator Salesforce Nick Huber David Cancel Josh Pigford Clearco AngelList Avaloq Naval Ravikant Dharmesh Shah The Ladders of Wealth Creation blog post Andrew Gazdecki's Links Follow Andrew on Twitter Follow MicroAcquire on Twitter Episode Transcript00:00:00 Andrew:I'm a big fan of stair-stepping and entrepreneurship. One of my favorite tweets that I've ever written is, “Start with an agency, get to cashflow positive, and then bootstrap an asset—whether that's a SaaS company or your e-commerce business—sell that asset, become financially secure, and then do whatever you want.”Along the way, you prepare yourself for the next stage of business. 00:00:35 Nathan:In this episode, I talked to Andrew Gazdecki, from MicroAcquire. Andrew started a couple other businesses and sold two of them. In that process, he decided there needed to be a better way to buy and sell businesses. So, that's where MicroAcquire came from. Their marketplace originally focused specifically on SaaS businesses, but they broadened to all of software.The reason I want to talk to him—he doesn't write a traditional newsletter or something like that—but he uses audience really well to grow MicroAcquire. He uses his personal brand connections with others, partnerships, a bunch of fun things.We get into how he grew his Twitter audience from 30,000 followers just a couple months ago, to over 70,000. His approach to Twitter, some of the arguments or beefs that he started with TechCrunch and others, and where he thinks those lines are.We also get into how he uses Cameo; he has these great ads announcing partnerships and others from Russ Hanneman on Silicon valley talking about this, and they're really entertaining.So, there's a lot of fun things in this episode, and I think you're going to like it.I'll get out of the way, and we'll dive in.Andrew, welcome to the show.00:01:41 Andrew:Thanks for having me, Nathan. Always a pleasure to be chatting with you. 00:01:44 Nathan:There are a lot of companies in the brokerage/help-me-sell-my-business space. I think of Effie International, Empire Flippers, Flippa, all of these. So, one, you're going into a really crowded market with MicroAcquire, and then, two, you're coming at it like you're a force of nature.Sam Parr and I we're actually talking about this, of how some people start a project and it's like, “Oh, I'm going to do this thing.” And then other people do effectively the same thing. I mean, it's different in a lot of ways, right? But the same category, and come in and just completely dominate, and grow so fast, and it feels like a fundamentally different thing.What's your take on that, of coming into a crowded space, and then the amount of momentum that you've come in with?00:02:34 Andrew:Yeah. I have a lot of respect for all those companies that you mentioned, and appreciate the compliment.The market that is specifically acquisitions hasn't seen a lot of innovation in a decade. Two of the businesses you mentioned are service businesses, Flippa being a marketplace. I looked at that, and I just thought, there's an angle here where sellers could benefit more than the buyers, and I felt buyers were benefiting. So, I took a left while everyone was going right.Then coming in from an entrepreneur's view instead of a buyer's view, or an investment bankers view, or an MNA advisor view, this was me saying, okay, I'm gone through two acquisitions, I think I have a few unique insights into what it would take to make me comfortable putting my business, generating millions of dollars, on a new marketplace. Then, what information and educational pieces would I need to feel comfortable to facilitate an acquisition.So, I just built what I felt acquisition should be. We still have a long way to go. We've done a really good job of connecting buyers and sellers, and all the acquisitions are facilitated off platform. We've been working on a lot of tooling to really add value to the acquisition, if that makes sense.So we're looking to innovate on things like due diligence or even simple items like writing a letter of intent or streamlining escrow, because everyone complains about escrow.com. so yeah, I mean, sometimes it just happens in markets. Like a new entrant comes in with a different angle towards the problem And different viewpoint. and I think my unique, insight there was just, I had been on. The side of the table that maybe the other, companies had not. but it's also, a giant market. So I, think, arising boat lifts all tides. So, you know, we're here to my require. I just made my group or to help entrepreneurs get acquired and, and, succeed.And so, I think also as, you know, Mike require pick steam and helps everyone else in the market as well. So, but, yeah, I don't have a good answer to that. I don't know. I think if I, if I, this, this will sound cheesy, but you know, I, I I'd like to say I built my group hire would love, like I launched it in the middle of the pandemic. I didn't have a business model. I had no idea how I was going to make money. I just knew I wanted to work with entrepreneurs and startups. And the rest is kind of history, you know, along the way, talking to customers, getting feedback from them, pretty much everything we do is basically feedback from customers.I'm not Steve jobs or anything like that. So I can't read people's minds. So I ask what, what ideas do you have? but yeah, it's been, it's been a fun journey so far. my group is about to turn two, which is pretty wild. 00:05:56 Nathan:That first version, that you launched, what did that look like? What, what was the very early stages of it? 00:06:02 Andrew:The first version was, it was just a simple marketplace with a couple of. Changes that I haven't seen in the market. One was privacy and anonymousy and then no fees or commissions for founders. So it was the first marketplace where you could meet buyers and sell your business without paying a 15% commission like you typically would with a broker or something like that.So I think that was kind of a change. And our business model today is we charge buyers for access to the platform to connect with sellers and, you know, having negotiations that lead towards negotiations. But yeah, the first version, required a lot of vetting of the buyers. Every buyer needed like a LinkedIn profile.Some people have complained about that, but I personally would never sell my business as someone, without a LinkedIn profile. I need to know where you worked, like you know, do you have anyone that's bad for you? not just like John 9, 9, 2, 4 5. You know, I need to know, who you are. and we're going to add other ways of verification, but I think that was a big one. and then also real-time metrics integration. So when we launched, you could connect like Stripe and chart, mobile and probable and bare metrics to get like a real, like a nice, pretty graph, like the revenue to help with due diligence. and then also founders and everything was private. So you didn't know what the business was.And as a founder, you had complete control over the process. So when you were with a broker, sometimes it could be kind of showing your business to a lot of peopleAnd you may not know who those people are. they could even be competitive to your business. And so I think what Mike required did that kind of, and I'm just guessing here because I haven't really liked. Taking a step back and then like, what did we do? Right. you know, I'm usually thinking about what can we be doing better? we really put the founder in control. You know, they were the ones able to choose which buyers to speak to. they were the ones able to share which information they wanted to and which information they did not want to share. And again, it was completely free. So it was very low friction to get onto the platform. And then I think just the, the high, the caliber of buyers and the caliber of listing. So we vet every listing. We vet every buyer. Now that registers as a micro require premium buyer, that's where you can contact sellers. so I think it was just kind of like, you know, going from let's just call it like a car dealership to like a Ferrari shop that makes sense where all the cars are, That it, and if you want to know who the owner is, you have to pay for that access, but it was a very specific towards startups, specifically SaaS.So I think that's another thing that I'm thinking of now is we, we went very narrow at the beginning, very narrow. So we were very specific on, specifically, bootstraps, SaaS companies.00:08:59 Nathan:Yeah. I think the approach in different marketplaces is always interesting when, you know, a marketplace is how businesses has like is a generic category, but then the twist on it, of, the seller not paying anything. And it being the buyer who pays, you know, a subscription for access. Why I think that that makes for an interesting twist, because then you're going to have this much higher pipeline of, you know, high quality businesses to look at.And so if a seller is paying for that, that makes sense. It reminds me of like, Bumble as a dating app being like, yep. So within the category of dating apps, but, women have to send the first message, you know, and, and like, that little bit of a twist makes it the marketplace feel, very different and changes the dynamics of. 00:09:40 Andrew:Yeah. I was going to say something, someone called micro fire shark tank, like if shark tank and dinner had a kid, I thought that was kind of an interesting analogy. but yeah, I'd say the, the key. The unique insights I had was again, like, from my perspective, if I'm going to list a business, I need to know who's seeing my information. I want to be in control of, you know, what information is being disclosed or being displayed publicly. and I don't want to commit until I really know, the quality of the buyers. And so that I think was very appealing to just being an entrepreneur. I think I. You know, understood the needs of other entrepreneurs and just kind of got it.Right. But I'm not gonna lie. When I, when I first launched it, I have this, I keep a journal that I update every month. It's not like a weird, you know, Hey dear diary thing. It's I do like, what's going really well. What are some things I'm worried about? and then things I'm grateful for, just to, you know, kind of keep it story log of my life. And before I launched my group wire, I actually, cause this idea had been attempted before, like a real startup acquisition marketplace. I think some of the other market places are more, geared towards, you know, content sites and domains and 00:11:07 Nathan:Yeah, 00:11:08 Andrew:Affiliate websites, but not real. Startups like SaaS companies, e-commerce companies, crypto companies, we've moved into a number of different categories.But, I wrote in my journal, I was like, I don't know if this is going to work, but at least it looks good. cause I, I just thought it needed to exist so bad for entrepreneurs that, we put a lot of thought into user experience and design. So it felt modern. You know, when you're working with startup founders, you kinda, you know, you want to really build trust, like yeah, if you're going to sell your business with us, your startup, you know, we also, we know how to build startups as well, and design them well and make them feel like something like this, this feels legitimate.And I think that's a, what I would call, you know, closing the credibility gap, you know, really, that first impression is so important. So we really kinda overdid the initial MVP. 00:12:06 Nathan:Yeah. I think that design is one of those things where you can go a long ways. And it's probably the first thing that people cut when it comes to the MPP. And that's just, I'm like, Nope, that's not an MVP. You have to cut features. You can't cut like the quality of, of the design. And if I have a limited budget, I'm for sure.Spending half of it, if not more on design. So I think you made the right move there.00:12:29 Andrew:Yeah, I think, I think today, I don't know if we're going to go off topic here, but I think a lot of startups today can legitimately have user experience in design as their competitive advantage. Just saving people, a Couple of clicks, making things easier to use, having a product where you don't have 50 tutorial videos, you've got to watch, or course you have to take. that's a huge advantage. and there's a lot of products that are very clunky and kind of feel like a car with, you know, like a jet ski engine added in. And I just kind of like a Jenga thing, you know, there's just so much technical debt to the product. I think though there's some products out there that I think could be rethought in terms of like the experience and the design they're delivering to the customers.But that's, that's probably a whole nother topic.00:13:22 Nathan:Yeah. Yeah. But we agree. And anyone who's listening to this show knows that I care deeply about design. one thing that I want to ask about and spend a lot of time on is content strategy. if I go to your website and go to the about page, it just lists your title or like your, your job description and your role as marketing. and so I'm imagining that's where you spent the majority of your time in, from the outside. It looks like content marketing is, either a very large or the largest portion of where you spend your time and how you're looking to grow MicroAcquire. Can you talk about how you think about content marketing and the growth of the business? 00:13:59 Andrew:Yeah, I think that was twofold. So number one, the first thing that happened to me when business apps was acquired, I had like five founder friends reach out and they said, how did you sell your business side is, is, were what, you know, so as entrepreneurs, we're not trained to sell businesses, we're not educated on what is due diligence, what are the legal steps of an acquisition?So I felt it was a twofold, the problem with the benefit. And when I say two folded, not right. Prom, but well point number one. Yeah. It's a phenomenal growth channel for us. we think heavily in terms of, you know, what is the content that, entrepreneurs will need when they're going through an acquisition, because the more we can educate them on acquisitions, the more we'll be able to facilitate.And I think that's been crucial, but then two there's just no content in the market that like there's books on fundraising, there's books on marketing there's books, on design there's books on there's a couple of books on, exits, but there just is such a disproportional amount of content available for everything, but a startup being acquired, that we felt, you know, there's an opportunity here to kind of be almost a, I don't want to say thought leader.00:15:20 Nathan:Yeah.00:15:21 Andrew:Kind of write the book, if you will, on, you know, this is, but also important to note is we write content for the seller, not for the buyer. we kinda think, you know, the buyers are set, you know, the buyers that we work with are, you know, private equity firms, corporate dev teams, other startups, people that, generally are sophisticated with, and also a lot of first-time buyers, but so the condoms still applies, but it gets you in the head of the entrepreneur, but we wanted to really empower the founder.So you'll notice every piece of content is angled towards the seller, not the buyer, if that makes sense. And I felt that was critical and just something cool to do for other founders, not like, Hey, this is an article on how to get like the cheapest SaaS acquisition possible. so we read articles on how to maximize your startups exit as.00:16:14 Nathan:Yeah. I mean, that, that perspective is in your, like your founding story for the company, But then it's interesting, like, all right, it makes sense that it carries through all of your content marketing as well, because in the same way that you have know who your customer is, which in the marketplace, you have a lot of different customers or you're, you know, you have both sides of it, but, 00:16:32 Andrew:That's that's something. Yeah, you're onto something. So that's something that, we determined, very, very early. So when we raised our, our seed round, I hired my former VP of product, VP of engineering. My former CFO, and my former head of marketing who's now gone. Cause he went, he was, he was, he was like one foot in he's started this, agency called brand arrow. so if anyone needs help with, Facebook ads or just any sort of SaaS marketing shadow, Tim brown now I told him like, Hey, you got to, I'm a big fan. I need like a micro mafia at one point. So I, I told him to dive in on that, but, we did an offsite and we, defined our culture, you know, our values, but really specifically, like you said, who was our customer?Cause it could be so many people, it could be okay, buyers, but there's so many different types of buyers. You know, which ones are we going to cater towards? And then there's sellers, you know, there's so many different types of sellers. There's people looking to sell comments. Again, domains, Amazon FBA businesses, SaaS founders.And so we really narrowed in, got super specific with our buyer And that really guides a lot of the decisions that we make all the way from the content to the product. I think that's really crucial in the early days, because you can always expand outwards. There's a theory. I don't know if you've heard of this, but the bowling ball theory, you've probably gone through this with your business where, you know, you start with one sorta audience and then I one customer segment, and there's just like these natural sort of like, you know, other segments that target for us, it was like e-commerce.And then we've been seeing a lot of just miscellaneous. You know, profitable software companies. So now we're a little bit more broad. So when I described my required of people, I say, it's a marketplace. So profitable software businesses, not just SaaS anymore, but yeah, we started really specific with SaaS founders being, our initial customer,00:18:37 Nathan:Yeah. Like narrowing it on. That is always a good thing. Okay. So content strategy, I'm seeing you do a lot of different things. one at let's just take Twitter, as a starting point. So I was looking back in August, you had 30,000 followers on Twitter. You have 73,000 followers today. You're tweeting five to 10 times a day.Often. Like you got a lot of, a lot of posts going out. It seems like they're resonating, obviously from the growth and all of that. you have a lot of these single posts are like single sentence. You know, here's an idea latch onto it, like positioning type things. So like one, one example is, instead of thinking of a hundred plus startup ideas, pick a customer you'd love to serve and solve their problems.That gets a thousand likes, 150 retweets or more. I want to know, two things, one, tell me about your Twitter strategy of how it fits into the broader business and what you're trying to do there. And then two, we'll just get into what's working. What's not working. 00:19:33 Andrew:Yeah, definitely. So Twitter strategy, there is absolutely none, aside from having fun. And I'm a firm believer of this, I think when people try to have a social media strategy where their goal is to grow followers. And so you start doing stuff like looking at other people's tweets, and then you take a tweet and this how I see this all the time with some content I put out like, oh, that looks very familiar, but I don't, I don't, you know, I don't care. but they're trying to grow their audience and they're not being authentic to who they are. And they're trying to be, you know, they're trying to, I guess what I'm trying to say is, Find a way to utilize, you know, social platforms in a way that you enjoy. So, one thing notice if you look at all my tweets, they're all from my iPhone.Like they're not from my web app. They're not from a scheduled Twitter thing. I just like that tweet. I remember writing that tweet. I was like, in my kitchen, I was just like, did it, you'll also see a tweet right before this podcast. That's just me. I was waiting for you to come on this podcast. I was like, so I think my point being, and I think this goes even broader is just, you know, if you want to be great at anything, and I'm not saying in any way, shape or form, I've created Twitter, but you just have to enjoy it.And then if you enjoy it, you're consistent at it. And then, I do have a few rules though. I don't usually comment on people's cause like you know, once you start getting to a certain point on Twitter, people, you can just post like Entrepreneurship is awesome. And then people have like a hundred questions and I just don't have the bandwidth to answer all those questions.So I usually will, I'm watching those questions and I'll usually, if some, if something's interesting, I'll, use that as a new tweet. and then you get tweeted out a lot, like, Hey, follow me. Like, Hey, we'd be on my podcast. So I kind of have a rule of like stay in my lane, if that makes sense. I've done a little bit of like beef marketing and stuff like that, you know, I'm sure you saw me like call out like tech, Raj, or maybe like throw a couple of shots at like, just joking, like VC sort of like, you know, shit posting type stuff. And that works. It definitely works. And there's some strategy behind that. That's probably one part of my social media strategy that was, strategic, it's effective, but it's not for the faint of heart. cause you do you make people pick sides, so you're going to upset some people and you're going to make some people really cheer you on.And so, I'm kind of done with that phase. that was fun. 00:22:20 Nathan:So if someone is in that phase or they're thinking about it, right. They, have a specific audience for their business or like a specific focus. They've chosen a niche and they have some strong opinions and they're not that kind of person who's like, you know, like let's not cause any conflict.They're like, no, I'm actually, I'd be, I'd be willing to get into a little bit of conflict. what would you say what's, what's your advice on going down that path of like, if you're thinking of oh, there's a TechCrunch in your space or someone else that you might want to pick a fight with? 00:22:49 Andrew:Did you just gotta really believe it? like, and I think it has to be factual, like what I said about, TechCrunch, as an example, just go on their website right now and see it. And tell me if you can find an article about a bootstrap startup. like, that's all I said is like, you guys are a publication that writes about just venture backed businesses. and you know, what kind of really struck a chord with me with that was my prior company business apps. You know, we were in TechCrunch, all the time. Like they loved writing about, you know, real business building storage partnerships, you know, version 2.0 launches, you know, international exp like, you know, stories that inspire entrepreneurs.And they moved towards, you know, this really venture backed sorta, you know, you're, you're either in it, or you're not in it. And I just blindly called them out on time and then some people. were like, yeah. And then I was like, huh, maybe there's something here. And then I just, and this is how I always think of or how I validate ideas as well as, so I have a publication now called, bootstrappers.com, which is just kind of like my.Like what I wanted, like just, you know, I want inspiring stories, like back in like 2010, you would read articles on TechCrunch about like, two people. They just launched a product, no funding. I remember some of the writers I used to work with, are they all left? They're all gone. It's like a new, it's a new company.It's, it's been acquired by four different companies. And you know, some of the older writers you're out, but, the older crew, would kind of joke and say, Hey, BC's like, I hope you banked me one day for writing about all the companies that I discovered. and then you find it later. now the opposite is entirely true. And so I, I wanted to bring that style. You know, journalism back where it's stories about companies making like 200,000 a year or 500,000 or 2 million. because you know what, I read an article about a company raising 200 million and then 500 million, like the next week. it doesn't really inspire me too much.And I think that celebrated so much today and, you know, the startup community that I think it's a little dangerous, I think, as a young entrepreneur, like if you think the path to being a successful founder is. Get into Y Combinator, raise a bunch of funding, get featured in, you know, these magazines, because that's what happens when you get fun.That's like the only way to get covered sometimes, is funding announcements. and even then it's hard cause there's so many. so I think that creates an environment where a lot of entrepreneurs are focused on raising capital rather than raising or generating revenue from customers.And that was just something that I lived through.I had a really good mentor. We're told, are we going off topic too far?00:26:04 Nathan:Well, I do want to take you back to, like the idea of like picking a fight. But finish the thought with a mentor. Who's everyone, everyone listening knows that ConvertKit is bootstrapped. I'm a huge fan of that and the same things, the same reason that you're picking a fight with TechCrunch or that you did, I would do the same because we experienced that, you know, we could have more revenue, more customers, all of that than, anyone else, but they're only going to write about the VC funded version.So, 00:26:28 Andrew:Yeah. So so long story, short business apps, my company prior, boot shove that business, and I just had a really good mentor Christian free Freeland. And he was always challenging me to think against the difficult soak on early pap. And we were based in San Francisco for five years, eventually moved to San Diego and that's where we exited the business. but, yeah, now that like I'm on my third, I took a little hiatus and went into crypto land for a little bit. So it got away from like SaaS and stuff like that, but now I'm back home. and yeah, just saw that and said, okay, and then actually TechCrunch did write a little bit about bootstrapping and then I've also seen a lot of other people start saying the same thing, like agreeing, which I think has been cool.It, which isn't like it's not a bad thing that TechCrunch or any publication, I don't want to just hone in on, on TechCrunch. because th they're, they've done so much for so many founders. but yeah, other people, I feel like the first shot was fired. Like, Hey, You know, we miss the old version of, you know, maybe mix it up a little bit.And they've taken some of that feedback and I've actually written about some bootstrap companies and then other people have kind of said the same thing. Like, you know, the startup ecosystem is really turning into this, you know, fundraise craze news cycle. And, you know, there's 99% of other startups that aren't going down that path.So that creates kind of like a movement. So that was like the benefit of, of beef marketing sometimes is you, again, make people pick sides. Some people agree with it, some people don't. yeah. So advice for anyone in terms of beef marketing, I, I, again, I, going back to my original point, it how you have to believe it, you have to believe what you're saying.It can't just be like, you know, one foot in, from my perspective, Most of the major tech publication should write about, you know, businesses that are profitable and sustainable and ones that are raising a bunch of capital and going public like a good mix would be amazing because then that gives you a true picture of, you know, all the different styles of entrepreneurship, you know, the ones that are at the top of the top and the ones that are taking a more sustainable practical approach, just giving a more realistic view into the world of entrepreneurship instead of just kind of, you know, putting this one style on a pedestal.Yeah, I mean, just get ready for, I mean, nothing bad happened. so I would just say also with beef marketing, it doesn't have to be just, an individual Oregon or, or an organization. Like good examples. So I've always had a, like, kind of an, a branding, an enemy, and all my businesses for business apps.It was a large businesses. Like our main sales pitch was, you know, Starbucks down the street, paid 2 million for their, mobile app, blah, blah, blah. You know, would you like to create that same customer experience for your customers and, you know, like David versus Goliath type story, you know, Mike group, we're kind of fighting for the founders.Then all the other stuff that I just talked about, but Salesforce had, their, their enemy was on-premise software. They essentially invented SaaS, you know, the company. Say a little chat thing. Yeah. They had a big campaign of just no forums. Like no one wants to download an ebook anymore, like forms go away, please. and I thought that was very clever, box.com had some beef with Microsoft, which was definitely fun to watch. I've I've been around long enough where I remember seeing in San Francisco, like, the billboard of like box, just basically saying Microsoft sucks. you know, Uber and Lyft were throne, had a food fight for awhile.That one probably went over over the line maybe. but yeah, my point is, is there's other examples it could be, for your business, it could be expensive. To like, I don't know, like it could be, it doesn't have to necessarily be like a organization or it definitely shouldn't be a person either.Like don't ever like just straight up call. That's just, that's not cool. Like if you have a problem with a person, call them and tell them your problems, like, that's it now. Like that's not, I don't, I don't support that at all. I think that's ticky-tacky and just a sign of just weak character, if you're just literally, you know, trying to tear someone down for your business's benefit,00:31:28 Nathan:One thing that's interesting, I think is you probably watch some, maybe beefs between individuals is just how many of them, maybe are planned or facilitated in some way. that is interesting. Like someone, messaged me today because, sort of like Nick Huber who's, has a popular Twitter profile under sway startup.Hopefully we'll have him on the show soon. He was, he posted something like controversial, which I know is one of his top of funnel tweets, right. To try to get as much attention. And so I purposely like aggressively disagreed with it, you know And then we're just separately texting, like, Oh, thanks for the engagement, you know Right. Because we know that by deceit, like if he strongly takes one stance and I strongly take the other stance, then like one, no one will think we're actually mad at each other, but then too, like, it'll get a lot more attention engagement. So a lot of people are doing. Some version of that. or if you see a happening usually between two individuals often, they're probably on really good terms behind the scenes. 00:32:26 Andrew:Yeah, I did not know that that's, that's me staying in my lane. I, I, I missed it. but yeah. I, mean that's business entertainment, you know, there's, there's nothing wrong with that, but I, think there's a line to be drawn, you know, like, If you do engage and stuff like that. number one, I think it's always great when, like, if it's real and then they like, like, Hey, we're cool now.Like, you know, we did this in pub and now like, okay, we're on 00:32:59 Nathan:Close that loop. 00:33:00 Andrew:Yeah. I think, I think that's really cool to see. but yeah, public food fights, not my thing. don't have appetite for that or any advice, but I will say, I will say Nick is coming hard on some, some of the stuff I've said, like, 00:33:16 Nathan:Whole angle. 00:33:17 Andrew:Yeah.The, the one thing I'll say about that though, that style like shit posting, you know, I was like some view of like VC funds just based on like shit posting and stuff like that. what I've noticed, ‘cause this, this actually, this is probably a good tidbit for, you know, if you're considering, beef marketing and what happens is you draw in a type of crowd that likes that negativity and it, and that can drain on you.And so if you should ship posts all the time, like a large amount of your followers are just going to be shipped posters, and they're going to be, then all your comments are like, use a blah, blah, blah. I mean, if you go on Nick's feed, you can just kind of look, just look at his comments. He has like a million people.Unfortunately insult, I kind of feel bad for him sometimes because I've also seen him comment how it affects him personally. I, I don't know him, so maybe it doesn't give a shit, but, that's why, again, I say, stay in my lane. Just keep it positive. Aye. Aye. Microfibers entire marketing strategy is literally just inspire or support encourage entrepreneurs.It did. not, I mean, not getting beefs with people and stuff like that.00:34:33 Nathan:Have you. like, there's the side that you're, you're taking of, using your personal brand for marketing, you know, growing a Twitter audience, all of that. You're very off the cuff of like, you know, just firing off, tweets or things that you, you think about. But at the same time, like you're a professional marketer and you tend to, from my new at you and other places, like you're very methodical, you tend to attract things really well.Do you track efforts that go into Twitter and Like how that translates into, you know, deals on MicroAcquire or new buyers or sellers, you know, like listing listing companies or any of that. 00:35:10 Andrew:So I'm a big believer in, so David can sell from drift said this really well where, I think I might've mentioned this to you the last time we talked, but, he, he broke it down into like three phases where, we've gone through three phases of SaaS. Like the first phase was invention murder. The first person to kind of build a tool one, the market.And then the second phase was the first company to really figure out the best, go to market strategy, like LTV to CAC, you know, AEs STR ratio who could, who could land grab the market fast enough. And then right now he says, he calls what we're in today, the Procter and gamble phase, which is your brand. So it's most defensible part about, your business is your brand. Your technology can be copied. it's easier than ever to raise capital to build a team to do that. There's also other things like your culture and your team's talent and just, you know, again, your unique insights into the market. People can copy chapter one, but not chapters two and three and four that you have planned. so I think a lot about that, a lot in terms of just brand and market reputation. But So, no, we don't, I don't measure it. when a tweet goes viral, like the one you just mentioned, I don't look at the comments because when a tweak gets like a thousand likes00:36:33 Nathan:Yeah,00:36:34 Andrew:Is gosh, like the questions and the people like disagree with you and just, you know, you start to enter, it's like, you're in a stadium of, you know, 200,000 people are reading this and then like 200 people have comments, not everyone's going to be like, yeah.Like half of them are going to be like negative stuff. So, yeah. So I, I push, I push away all negative energy. So if, if it's not positive, I'm over it. 00:37:05 Nathan:W what you're describing is interesting of the city of idea of, if you think about it, like maybe your immediate group of friends, you post something, the people who reply right away, you interacted with them a bunch, like that's who's on the field or whatever. And then the next group is like the coaches, the diehard fans, like the re the support staff, everyone else, like those are your Followers. And then you can tell every time that this tweet goes beyond that, because you start to get, like, I had one on company culture that, was like a thousand retweets and went really far. and you could just immediately tell when it had gone to like two levels beyond the people who follow me, cause it just, it went totally off the rails. And you're right. That the only thing you can do is like mute your own thread and move on. 00:37:50 Andrew:Yeah, I just, and you could tell, cause I usually will like everyone's tweets just cause I respect everyone's opinions, like bringing, Nick back up. He, I remember I had a tweet, just something about how entrepreneurs that have maybe struggled in their childhood, have an advantage. He came in with like a strong disagreement and kinda, but I respected it.But then I, we, we kind of close the loop with like, Hey Mike, I think you're taking this out of context. so I'll respect everyone's opinion, but once it goes, you know, I'll like all of, them. And then once it goes viral, that's when it's like all, everything is just nuts. Like, you know, I can't, I would never want, I can't keep up with it.And then too, I've probably already moved on to like three or four other tweets that, you know, I'm thinking of or something like that, but I think, I think that's another important side of, just social media in general is just understanding like everyone has a right to their opinions. So even if people do strongly like disagree, that's awesome.You know, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Everyone has, You know, unique view of life And how things work. and I respect all those opinions, but I think one. thing about social media that can get kind of crazy is when you're taken out of context, I've had that happen a couple of times. Like the one time with Nick, maybe, he took it as I think like, people with really great families, you know, like divorced dads make less than married men. and I, was like Nick, no, this isn't about diverse families. It's just about like entrepreneurs struggling with when they grew up. Like I were Joe, and then I had another one. This one was, this is a crazy one. I had one, I tweeted out. Hire people you'd be friends with. And that was, literally someone literally took that as far as saying, nice job describing why tech is sexist and racist in five words.And I, and I was like, what? And I was hanging out with my sons. I didn't have like enough, I didn't catch it in time. And so I come back, to my phone and I had to delete the tweet. And then I actually, you know, put more con like, Hey, I meant that as like, you know, hire people, you'd be friends with and you'd care for them personally and professionally, not just hire a bunch of white people or something like that.Like what? So sometimes you gotta be careful, when that kind of stuff goes down. And it's also just fascinating how people can, again, their, their perspectives, like their perspectives and their viewpoints. you know, you can say one thing and it means one thing to you and something completely different to someone 00:40:47 Nathan:Right.Yeah. I remember a time that Josh Pigford, for bare metrics, had a tweet about concerns in your, in a resume when someone, you know, has had 10 roles in 10 years or kind of thing, or like jumped between roles every 12 months. And that, I I'm not even fully sure why, but, but that one, like he got jumped on in a very similar way of people taking out of context and saying like, this is what's wrong with technology and 00:41:14 Andrew:Let's talk about that for a second. So when you're, when you're taken out of context, Just admit it, just say, Hey, that, that this is not what I meant. And then I recommend is deleted tweet, and just clarifying, just like, Hey, I wrote a tweet, this, this is what I actually did. I deleted the tweet. And then I said, Hey, I had a tweet taken out of context and it's obviously a little embarrassing, you know, but it's the right thing to do is like, Hey, like that's not what I meant.So also admitting, you know, that's not what you meant, but clarifying when people like, that's not that that was not my intention of those five words in any way, shape or form, even like, that, that, that experience was so far off. I still kind of scratch my head on it. But my point being is, you know, it, you know, take one back, like, Hey, listen, I, I said something, it was taken out of context.I apologize. this is what I really meant for further clarification. And it'll just make your life a lot easier instead of trying, to defend, because I know the thing is if Mrs. Also I don't really comment too much on social media. Number one, it's just exhausting because you can have so many, then you're like a, full-time like customers support person on Twitter. again, you know, once You kind of engage with someone who vehemently disagrees with what you're saying, or has taken you out of context, it's really hard to change their opinion, if not impossible. So even trying, once you, if you just try you lose. You just start throwing food and stuff like that.So that's just kinda some of the crazy stuff I've seen happen on, on Twitter as, you know, gone a little bit more active. cause I, I wasn't active on Twitter, so all this is like new to me too. I'm still learning like, oh shit posers. I didn't, I didn't know those existed or like, oh wow. You can get really taken out of context and it can go viral and people can say some mean things.So yeah, my, again, going back to just saying I stay in my lane and just talk about stuff that I liked it. Talk about.00:43:35 Nathan:I like it. something else that you've done that I hadn't seen other people to do before, but I get it as a strategy. so separate from like just sort of specific, but it's using cameo and using spokespeople on cameo. for your business specifically, you got Chris, demon topless from Silicon valley and all of that to do announcement videos for partnerships and one they're amazing. but like w where did that come from? And, how'd that turn into something that like, And, now if someone says like tres commas, like in relation to micro choir, everyone's like, oh yeah, that makes sense. 00:44:15 Andrew:So for the longest time, it was just me running Mike requir. I was a solo founder. and on the team page, we just like, as I was working on the design with, I initially use an agency to help with, the development. And, there was a team page and I was like, ah, just put Richard Hendrix, Gavin Belson, and Jen yang from Silicon valley.And it just kinda was, I just thought it was cool. And some people like, you know, called it out and was like, are these really your team members? And I'm like, yeah, they were super harder recruit. So I'm, I'm a huge fan of the show because it is shockingly accurate and just hilarious. and then, yeah, so I actually, you know, before, like right when I launched my crew choir, I.When on cameo saw Russ Hanneman Chris. I can't pronounce his last name off the top of my head, but, you know, he was available and he was like my favorite character. And I was like, yeah. W do you want to talk about my group choir? And since then we built, you know, a pretty good relationship in terms of, you know, just working with them.And he's a really great guy. Like he's a really, really, really nice person. but my point here is I'm always thinking about what's, I'm always learning and I'm always trying to think of what is changing in marketing today? For example, the marketing playbooks that worked five years ago don't work as effectively today because everyone adopts them and starts using them.And then it starts to, feel like marketing and the best marketing doesn't feel like marketing it's entertaining, or it, captures your attention in a way where you go, whoa, I haven't seen that before. So I'm always trying to think of unique ways to, capture or actually I should say, earn audience attention rather than buy it, or, you know, writes an ebook and engaged it and get your email and then send you 30 trip emails, which worked fantastically a decade ago, which killed a decade ago.But So that's kind of where the thought process and then candidly. I would say, I might laugh the hardest out of those videos. So it's like my like guilty, like pleasure. cause you know, they're not free. So like, you know, I, I probably am lapping the hardest, like when those go out.00:46:46 Nathan:I've I've laughed pretty hard at a lot of them, especially as like, they end up in a series where they like build on each other. The, he uses jokes that he first coined and, you know, first video. And,00:46:58 Andrew:Yeah. a little background on that too is, I didn't tell him to make up anything like he's made of like gas Decky style, micro Gaz, micro, and like, I don't tell, I just basically, cause you're only able to write in like two sentences and he he's just a hilarious person. So any startup looking to, you know, announce something, I highly recommend checking it. 00:47:21 Nathan:I guess how has the business side of it work? Right? Cause if you go on, on his page in particular, it says $349 for personal use or 909 plus for business use, which makes sense that there would be a split there because you've obviously gotten a lot of earned, earned, attention from those. how does it work actually on the payment side? 00:47:41 Andrew:In terms of like using Kamya.00:47:44 Nathan:Yeah. Using cameo, maybe using Russ specifically. Well, Chris, not Russ. But using him specifically or, you know what you've done, you've done with, other people on cameo. 00:47:56 Andrew:Yeah. So he's kind of the only we did a partnership with Clearco and I had like the game, the rapper, duke came here just because I kind of went on like a cameo binge, like I've been a fan of you forever.00:48:12 Nathan:Cards on file. You know, you're just like00:48:15 Andrew:Yeah. I was like, I'd love for you to just say micro choir. Like this is awesome. who else did we get?I can't remember off the top of my head, but, what's been interesting to see what Chris is. when I first booked him, he was $200. Now he's 5,000. So he, has definitely, you know, made some waves in the startup community. And So it's, it's cool to see him like, you know, making people laugh and helping startups get exposure and then raising his prices too, which is, I think something that, you know, most startups should do.So he's done a very good job of that. It, it went from like one K to two K to three K. Now it's at like, 5k, so he's expensive. 00:49:00 Nathan:So that's like when we see something like that, right. If the nine and nine plus, in the buying process, then later, does it tell you like, oh, here's like once you fill out, the initial form, it'll tell you what, what the price is or how's that work?00:49:13 Andrew:So there's, there's a personal use. So you can use his personal, I don't know his like personal cost, but let's say it's like 500 bucks and that would be for like a birthday wish or something like that, which can be a great way to motivate like your team, like, Hey team, great. You know, Q1 or Q4 that's ending, here's our goals for next year, you know, made, they want to me to give you all shout out, that'd be 500 bucks, but then a business use where you posted, externally, so on Twitter or social media, or, within some sort of piece of marketing content.The price for that is usually 10 X, you know, internal use. 00:49:55 Nathan:Did any of the other ones that you tried? Did you feel like they got attention or that kind of thing make you want to do it again? Or was it more just the ones with Chris that really resonated. 00:50:04 Andrew:I think probably you'll see less cameos, out of me, I think, you know? there, there, there gets to a point and we could, we could probably have another podcast about this, about like things with diminishing returns. And I think I've kind of, you know, used them so many times that, I mean, for the really big like, announcements that we have coming up, like maybe twice next year or something like, that but I think there's sort of a diminishing return, especially with the cost, you know? I think building in public kind of falls into that category a little bit. audience exhaustion in terms of like paid ad campaigns. you know, so I'm always thinking of that stuff too.I like, are we overdoing it? cause then it just kinda starts to get corny is when you're doing it over and over and over and over. and it's not really like, whoa, he's here. Like I didn't expect this. And when it starts to become expected, I think if there was just kind of a little bit of luster. 00:51:05 Nathan:Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. something else that you do a ton of is partnerships, whether it's with PYP or angel list or whoever, it feels like micro choirs coming out with a partnership. Every, I don't know what the actual cadences, I feel like it's every two weeks to a month. what's the, what's the strategy there. And is that like a very deliberate, marketing strategy or is it just like, look, this is a natural fit. And so we're just going to do a better job. It made sense to do the partnership and we're just going to do a better job promoting it than most people do. And when they come out with a partnership, 00:51:35 Andrew:Yeah. I mean, so the pipe Clearco Angeles partnerships all made total sense. They help startups get acquired, which is, you know, the purpose of our business. And, you know, our, our main metric of success is helping startups get acquired. So helping them get financed, increases the buyer pool, which then can lead to more acquisitions.So there's, those made a ton of sense. and then we also want to expand internationally. So we partnered with, essentially like the angel list of, Africa that serves 40 countries in Africa. And so I thought that was a really fun partnership in terms of, you know, helping, really underserved. areas of the world, or support underserved areas of the world with my group who are in terms of, you know, just our message and just our encouragement and we're going to continue those.So we're looking, actively speaking with, individuals that are, you know, accelerators or like, start a boot camps and like Turkey or Europe or the UK or Australia. I have a number of conversations, but we'll probably go a little lighter on those because I also feel like the partnership thing is it's like, okay, another part is another partnership might require really. but that's, I think partnerships are, what I would call a non-linear growth strategy. So it's basically, you know, what you're doing is you're leveraging, you know, number one, Another company's brand So you're, you're borrowing some of their brand equity saying like, Hey, we're partnering. So their capabilities are now part of our capabilities and vice versa. so there's benefits on both sides. And then you know, with products that, you know, pipe clear co and Angeles offers specifically, it adds value to our product. So it's like a win, win, win. It's a, it's a good marketing play, good brand play. And then it's good. Just, you know, product play without, a lot of, you know, engineering needed. 00:53:41 Nathan:Is there, like, do you have engineers internally just devoted to, you know, these integrations or, or did they tend to be more on the marketing? you know, our business ops side rather than on the product side, because then they can be expensive on the product side.00:53:55 Andrew:Yeah, they definitely can. I would say they're more. On the marketing side then on, like for example, the angel is partnership is just a landing page that so Avaloq, the CEO of Angeles is an investor in might require and then evolve in an investor in my rewire. And so I just asked, I pointed out this other company that was making an SPV product for private equity firms.And I just said, can you make me a landing page? I'll promote it. And so inside my group where there's like a drop down that says raise bonds, and then it takes you to a landing page. So minimal product integration there, but it's just kind of like us saying, Hey, if you, if you're looking to raise funds, this is where we recommend you doing it.We've done that with mercury bank as well, which is just, again, you know, you acquire a company, you probably want to transfer those assets and do a new entity. That new entity is going to need a bank account. So we're just kind of getting all the re they're almost like perks. If you will.00:54:54 Nathan:Yeah. That makes sense. And then it's not this big integration that you're having to maintain for years to come or.00:55:01 Andrew:Yeah, no, it's not like a, like a Facebook, like a, you know, SSO log-in or something like that. you know, it's a, it's a lot simpler. It's usually just like a lane kicking over to a landing page, you know, driving traffic to them and then we get some sort of kickback for whatever business we drive to them.00:55:20 Nathan:Is there anything in particular that's worked well on, like the partnerships that have been a, a, huge boost, right? Where either you've gotten a bunch more attention for Mike require built the brand. Like, are there things that you see in common on those ones where you're like, yes, that was a home run versus the ones where you're like, I think that was worth the time to put together.Maybe 00:55:40 Andrew:Yeah. I mean, I'd say, I'd say all of them, I'd say my favorite are definitely the Clearco and pipe partnerships. like. Hers is he, oh, he bought me this to kick off our partnership. It's assigned Mike Tyson glove and we've done a number of acquisitions together. I think their company's fantastic. I love working with our team.Clearco same thing. So pipe, I was finance all of our SaaS deals exclusively, and then Clearco all of our e-commerce deals exclusively and they're just great teams and it's a clear need. You know, some people want to finance these with, these companies and we make it extremely seamless to connect to those companies.And we even do like pre-financing. So if you're a founder looking to sell on Mike required and you want to give a line of, you know, potential financing in advance to a buyer, we can, pre-approve a seller. So it just makes kind of the, you know, when you're going to buy a home, it's like it's pre finance or something.I don't know if that's a good analogy, but, those are, those are partnerships that really add, like they were on the product roadmap and they just, you know, we just went to the best ones in the market with the most credibility, with the largest capital pools. but also with the engineering resources.So, you know, anytime a company is, you know, financed through pipe, we get a notification within slack. It says like, Hey, add preapproval number to this company. So we just, we, instead of working with like a ton of different financing partners, we just pick the best ones and then then integrated deeply with them.00:57:23 Nathan:That makes sense. One of the things that I wanted to ask about before we wrap up is, on the sort of the investor influencer side, you have a lot of people, like know, you mentioned Deval and, and others who, have invested in MicroAcquire. And is that, helping of like helping you you know, amplify some of these things on Twitter amplify, these partnerships, open doors in some way.Do you think you get something similar with like a influencer program or has the investor side really been a good, good angle for that? 00:57:54 Andrew:Yeah, that's a good question. So yes, there's definitely the group of investors that my career has is like all my, like idols, like, you know, founders of companies that, you know, I like, you know, Dharmesh from HubSpot, Neval like, From Angeles, like those are some of my favorite companies and I get to, interact with them on a, on a very limited basis. I don't reach out to them for advice, very often. So I think that also adds to just, you know, brand equity of just, being a marketplace, you know, and us wanting to build this with the startup community. That was kind of more of the thought process behind it. But now, I mean, you could even look at my likes.I, I ha I, was, has evolved over, liked something of, mine now has Dharmesh maybe once, like, so now I don't rely on them for like social media support or anything like that. but it, it is, a good way in terms of, you know, when you raise your entreprenuers, you get kind of, again, unique insights because most of them have been through MNA. so, so typical VCs, but, I, I really liked that, style of, of fundraising is when, obviously I'm a bigger advocate of bootstrapping because that's kind of, you know, where I've spent, or had the most success. But if you're gonna raise capital, I, I recommend entrepreneurs for us because they have experienced building a business.And then typically with, you know, acquisitions specifically in my case, which is you know, extremely helpful. 00:59:33 Nathan:Yeah, you and I are both known for bootstrapping. And we're also, I think, pretty well known for not being that dogmatic about it, of being like, here's what we did. Here's why it works well. Here's why the other path can be fine too. you know, rather than being super dogmatic in one camp or the00:59:49 Andrew:Yeah. That's one thing I've noticed since being vocal about bootstrapping that I think is a little toxic; if you're funded, it's like, I hate you. Then, if your bootstrapped, venture capital's just a tool. If you know how to use the tool correctly, it can be a great accelerant to your business. Everything comes with a cost. So, when you bootstrap, you have to kind of eat glass for much longer. I've lived that life, but at the end, the rewards can be epic.So, if your goal is to make money, you should probably bootstrap, because you can sell the business whenever You want. You have no approvals. You own the whole thing. Nathan, if you wanted to sell your business, you don't have any investment or approvals, or anyone saying, “No, you need to hit that billion dollar mark.” If you want to really disrupt the market, or change a market or, go a little bit bigger, faster, venture capital is just a tool to accelerate that. It all comes with a cost.The cost of bootstrapping is, sometimes you have to do customer support for longer. You have to do some of these roles where you can't bring in talent earlier. The cost of venture capital is, you give it back equity and control within your business. There's usually controls. You need approval to raise capital. You need approval to sell your business.So, everything comes with a cost, and it has pros and cons. I think bootstrapping makes sense for 99% of entrepreneurs, because the bar today is building a billion dollar business, and that's not easy to do. So, for many first-time founders, I'm a big fan of stair-stepping and entrepreneurship. One of my favorite tweets that I've ever written is, “Start with an agency, get to cashflow positive, and then bootstrap an asset—whether that's a SaaS company or your e-commerce business—sell that asset, become financially secure, and then do whatever you want.” Swing for the fences, go on a beach, whatever. Along the way, you prepare yourself for the next stage of business.01:02:24 Nathan:Yeah, I completely agree with that. I have an article titled “The Ladders of Wealth Creation” that touches on the similar idea of using the skills from one ladder to move up to the next, and go from there.Well this has been fun. I always enjoy watching the partnerships, what you're doing on Twitter, and everywhere else.I think that MicroAcquire is a great example of what you can build with an audience. Thanks for coming on and hanging out with me and, and we'll have to talk soon.01:02:52 Andrew:Yeah, Nathan, thanks for having me, man. I enjoyed the chat.01:02:55 Nathan:Alright. Catch you later.01:02:56 Andrew:See you, man.

Matthew Kepnes runs the popular travel blog, Nomadic Matt, and also writes a successful newsletter. In fact, Matt's newsletter is one of the biggest I've had on the show. His book, How to Travel the World on $50, is a New York Times Best Seller.After a 2005 trip to Thailand, Matt decided to leave his job, finish his MBA, and travel the world. Since then, he's been to nearly 100 countries, and hasn't looked back. Besides being a New York Times best-selling author, Matt's writings have been featured in countless publications. He's a regular speaker at travel trade shows, and is the founder of FLYTE, a non-profit organization that sends students overseas to bring their classroom experience to life.I talk with Matt about his unique approach to running his business. While others are building online courses, Matt has shifted to doing more in-person meetups and events. We talk about his newsletter, and we also talk about growing your Instagram follower count, scaling a business as a solopreneur, and much more.In this episode, you'll learn: When & why you need to start outsourcing day-to-day tasks Matt's email opt-in strategies and tips to get more subscribers The most important metric about your email list How to quickly get more followers on Instagram Links & Resources Blue Ocean Strategy Matador Lonely Planet Blue Ocean Strategy book Pat Flynn Women In Travel Summit Traverse Cheryl Strayed ConvertKit TravelCon FinCon Podcast Movement World Domination Summit Hootsuite Tim Ferriss Seth Godin OptinMonster Seth Godin: This is Marketing Rick Steves Nathan Barry Show on Spotify Nathan Barry Show on Apple Podcasts Matthew Kepnes' Links Matt's website Follow Matt on Twitter Matt's Instagram The Nomadic Network Nomadic Matt Plus Episode Transcript[00:00:00] Matthew:When I started these courses back in 2013, there wasn't a lot of folks. Now you have so many people with courses, so many Instagrammers and TikTokers selling their stuff. It's sort of like, is this worth the time to really invest in it when my heart really isn't in it? How can I maintain 400K in revenue a year? Is that the best use of our resources? The answer is, not really.[00:00:33] Nathan:In this episode, I talk to my long time friend, Matt Kepnes, from Nomadic Matt.Matt's got a travel blog that's wildly popular, and he gets into that—shares all the numbers. He's probably one of the biggest newsletters that I've had on the show, so far.What I love about him, in particular, is how thoughtful he is about his business model.Most people are just adding more courses and figuring out how to grow revenue; honestly, what's now fairly traditional ways, and it's quite effective. Matt takes another approach. He gets into in-person events and meetups. We get to talk about why in a busy, crowded online world, he's actually going offline.I think that Blue Ocean Strategy he references, the popular book by the same title, I think it's interesting, and it's something worth considering when some of the online strategies don't work. We also get into a bunch of other things like growing his newsletter. Like I said, it's quite large.Then, also growing an Instagram following. Instagram is not something that I'm going to actively pursue, but it's interesting hearing his approach of what you do if you're at 5,000 followers on Instagram, and want to grow to 50,000 or more.So, anyway, enjoy the episode.If you could do me a favor and go subscribe on Spotify or iTunes, or wherever you listen if you aren't subscribed already, and then write a review.I check out all the reviews. Really appreciate it. It helps in the rankings, and I'm just looking to grow the show.So, anyway, thanks for tuning in today. Let's go talk to Matt.Matt, welcome to the show.[00:02:06] Matthew:Thanks for having me, Nathan. I've been trying to get on this podcast for ages.[00:02:10] Nathan:Well, don't say that, that'll make people think they can get on just by asking. Really, you came to my house and stayed in my cottage on the farm, and then you're like, “Yo, have me on the podcast!” And that's when I was like, “Absolutely.” But if anyone just asked, that would not be a thing.[00:02:26] Matthew:No, I just mean I finally—I'm excited that I'm worthy enough in my blogging career to be on.[00:02:33] Nathan:Oh, yes.[00:02:35] Matthew:I've made it.[00:02:36] Nathan:Yeah. It's only taken you, what, a decade and a half?[00:02:39] Matthew:13 and a half years. Slow and steady wins the race.[00:02:43] Nathan:That's right.I actually want to start talking about that side of it, because I've been in the blogging world for 11 years now. But even I feel like things changed so much in the first couple of years, even before I entered into the world. So, I'm curious, going back to the early days, what were the prompts for you to come into the blogging world and say, “Hey, I'm going to start publishing online”?[00:03:10] Matthew:Yeah. You know, it was a very haphazard, there was no grand plan. Like I had Zanger when people had Zeno's, which is, you know, a personal blog, way back, you know, 2003, whatever. And so what, I went on my trip around the world in 2006, I just kept updating this Zynga. You know, it was called, Matt goes the world and it was just like, here I am friends here I am.And then, you know, everyone was really excited in the beginning. And then after a while I got sick in my update because the know their back of their office job. So I kinda just forgot about it until I came home and January, 2008 and I need money. And so I started a temp job, and I had a lot of free time and I really just hated being back in the, the office with the walls and everything.And so I was like, I need to earn money to keep traveling. And so I started the website really as with the goal of it being an online resume, you know, it was very bare bones. I used to share a travel news, have an update, like tips and stories from my trip. And then there was a section where we're like, hire me and it had my features and, you know, the guest blogs I did, I used to write for Matador travel.So just as a way to sort of build up, a portfolio of like, Hey, Yeah, freelance writing because I'm wanting to read guidebooks, you know, I wanted to write for lonely planet. That was a dream, right. The guidebooks. And so just the blog was a way to hone my skills and just get in front of editors to be like, Hey look, I do right.You know, here's where I've been, you know, and, and sort of build that base. And eventually that became a thing where I didn't need to freelance. Right.[00:05:03] Nathan:Was it called nomadic Matt from the beginning.[00:05:06] Matthew:He was, yeah. I B two names, nomadic Matt. And that does the world. Right. Because I like the double entendre of it. Right. Even though, but just cause I have a weird sense of humor and all my friends were like, you can't do that one. You gotta do nomadic Matt. It was really good because it's much better brand name, you know, in the long run.But again, I wasn't thinking about that. Right. I wasn't thinking like, oh, I'm going to start this brand. You know, I gotta think of a clever name that people can remember. It was like,Oh a place where people can see my work.[00:05:39] Nathan:Right. Okay. So now 13 and a half years later, what's the, what's the, the blog and newsletter look like. and I want to dive into the business side of it because I think a lot of people build successful newsletters, audience-based businesses, but don't make the leap to like something bigger than themselves.And so I want to dive into all those aspects of it.[00:06:01] Matthew:13 years later, it's seven people. We just hired a new events coordinator to help. my director of events, Erica, coordinate all these virtual in person events that we're going to kick off again. I have a full-time tech guy, a full-time director of content. We changed his title, but like three research assistants, because.I picked a niche that like is always changing. Right. You know, you have a fitness website, how to do a pull up. It's just, that's it,[00:06:37] Nathan:You ranked for that keyword. You're good to go.[00:06:40] Matthew:Yeah. Like how to do a pull up, doesn't change what to do in Paris or the best hospitals in Paris, constantly changing, you know? so it takes three resources, distance.Plus my content guy, me that basically keep up the content and then I have a part-time, graphic designer and part-time social coordinator.[00:07:00] Nathan:Nice. And how many subscribers do you have in the list now?[00:07:03] Matthew:We just called it, so it's a two 50 because we just, cause I haven't shaved it off in like five years or so. So we basically everybody that hasn't opened the email in one year where we're like, you want to be on.And like 2% of them click that button. And then we just got rid of the other 90%. It was like 60,000 names.[00:07:30] Nathan:Yeah. So for everyone listening, two 50 in this case means 250,000.[00:07:35] Matthew:Yeah.[00:07:36] Nathan:Just to clarify, I 7% businesses off of 250 subscribers would be remarkable. That would be just as impressive, but that's not what we're talking about here. going into, so a lot of people, talk about or worry about, should I prune my list or that kind of thing?What were the things that went into that for you? That's a big decision to, to prune 60,000 people off a list.[00:08:00] Matthew:I think it was probably more, maybe I want to say six 60 to 80 I somewhere around there. we were pushing up against our account before I went to the next billing step.So that's always a good impetus to prune the list, but you know, I I've been thinking about it for a while because. You know, I I really want to see what my true open rate.Is You know, like, okay, I have all these people and we were sending it this, I have multiple lists, but the main weekly list was like, 310,000-315,000 but it's been so long since we called and we have so many emails there and I just really wanted to get a true sense of like, what's our active audience.And so between, between that and, pushing up against the next tier price tier. Yeah. it yeah. It's cool to say like, oh, we have 300,000 300, you know, rather than 250,000 Right. But who cares? Right. I mean, at the end of the day, it's just a vanity metric, right? Yeah. It sounds cool. I get a million emails. Right. But if you only have a 10% open rate, You really only have 100,000.[00:09:20] Nathan:Right. I think that the times that it matters is maybe when you're selling a book to a publisher and that might be the only time that you like that dead weight and your email us actually helps you.[00:09:33] Matthew:Yeah. Like if you're, or you have a course, you know, are you trying to promote your numbers, but people would probably lie about that stuff too. yeah, so like, it really doesn't matter because all that matters is like, what's your true audience? Like who Who are the people that are really opening your stuff?[00:09:50] Nathan:Yeah. So let's dive into the, well, I guess really quick, I should say I am a hundred percent in the camp of, like delete subscribers, like do that once a year, that kind of thing. Clean up the list, go for the highest number of engaged subscribers, rather than the highest number of subscribers. It's just[00:10:06] Matthew:Right.[00:10:07] Nathan:To track.[00:10:08] Matthew:And, and I think you would know better than me, but isn't this a good. Like signal to Gmail. And you know, when you, you don't have a lot of dead emails, just go into a blank account. It's never getting opened or marked as spam or whatever.[00:10:24] Nathan:Yeah, for sure. Cause a lot of these times, there's a couple of things that happen. One is emails get converted to spam traps. And so it's like say someone's signed up for your email list six years ago And, they haven't logged into that email account for a long time.Google and others will take it and convert it to a spam trap and say, Hey, this email hasn't been logged into in six years.And so anyone sending to it, it's probably not doing legit things now you're over here. Like, no that person signed up for my list, but they're basically like you should have cleaned them off your list years ago. And then if that person were to ever come back and log into that Gmail account, do you remember like, oh, just kidding here, have the, have the email account back, but they're basically using that.And so you can follow all the. Best practices as far as how people join your list. But if you're not cleaning it, then you will still end up getting these like spam hits and, and other things. So you absolutely clean your list. Let's talk the business side, on revenue, I don't know what you want to share on the, on revenue numbers, but I'd love to hear any numbers you're willing to share.And then the breakdown of where that comes from, whether it's membership, courses, conferences, that sort of thing.[00:11:35] Matthew:Yeah.So there's like the pre COVID world and the post COVID world. Right. You know, like,[00:11:40] Nathan:Yes.[00:11:41] Matthew:Cause I work in travel, so like, you know, pre COVID we did over a million and like I was probably gearing up to like in 2020, like one, five, I think I were going to get a little over one five. and again, you know, this is, I work in the budget travel side of things, right.So like it's going to sell a lot of $10 eBooks to get up to seven figures. salary books are 10 bucks. and so. Postcode during COVID week, I think in 2020 made like half a million. and this year we'll probably get up to three quarters,[00:12:23] Nathan:Okay.[00:12:24] Matthew:K.[00:12:25] Nathan:He was coming back,[00:12:26] Matthew:Yeah. Yeah. and I think next year we'll, we'll get back over seven and then basically like how to go from there.You know, so maybe 20, 23, I might get to that one, five that was going to get to in 2020. most of the revenue now comes from ads, and then affiliates. we did, we did do a lot on courses, but then I, one of the things that, you know, a big pandemic that stops your business, allows you to do is really look at the things you're doing because every.Zero. So it's like when we start back up, is this worth investing time in? And so the answer is no. So we dropped down from, I think, peak of doing like $400,000 a year and horses, and this year we'll do maybe 40. and that's mostly because we just leave it up as like, you can buy this, we update it every six months.If it needs, it's basically like a high that blog course get all my numbers and tactics and strategies in there. but we don't offer any support for it. Right. It's just, you're buying information. and so it's very passive in that sense, but it's not like a core business where we're really moving and we were doing this pre COVID is moving into events and membership programs.So like we have pneumatic map plus, which gets you like all our guides, monthly calls and sort of like a Patriot on kind of thing, but like free.[00:14:03] Nathan:That cost.[00:14:04] Matthew:Five to 75 bucks a month, depending on what you want. So it's 5 25, 75. Most people opt for the five, of course. And it's really geared to like, get the five.But you know, that brings now, I think like three or four K a month. and then we have the events, which is donation based, but there's just like another two K a month. And so this is like, since COVID right. So like, that's say call it 50 K a year of, of revenue that we've added in. They didn't exist before.And now I know you're, you can compare that against the loss of the courses, but we had been phasing those out for years. and so that's really where we want to grow is bringing in more, you know, monthly revenue for that. Right. You know, Once we started, it's easy and we're gonna start doing tours again and, you know, so more high value things that don't take as much time.[00:15:08] Nathan:Right. So on the core side, I think a lot of people listening, maybe they have an email list of five, 10, 15,000 subscribers, and they're like, Hey, the next thing is to launch a course. And they're hearing that's where a bunch of the revenue is. And so it's interesting you moving away from that. So let's dive in more.What, what made you look at the core side of your business and say, I don't want to like restart that in a post COVID world.[00:15:33] Matthew:Yeah, there's just, there's a lot of competition, right? So like, I think it was like a blue ocean, red ocean strategy, you know, to think of that book of, you know, Blue Ocean Strategy. Right? One of the reasons we went into events is because a lot of our traffic comes from Google. And so it's a constant battle of always trying to be one or, you know, in the first couple of spots.Right with every blogger in every company with SEO budget, but there's not a lot of people doing in-person events or building sort of a community in the travel space. So I looked at that of being like, okay, there are a lot of people doing courses and they love doing courses and they're great teachers, you know, they're, you know, you get folks who know like path when, you know, low, like everyone, all these teachable folks, you know, they, they love that stuff.That's not where my heart really was. And so thinking of like, this is a red ocean now, because you have, when I started this, these courses back in 2013, there wasn't a lot of folks. Right. But now you have so many people with courses, so many Instagrammers and tic talkers selling their stuff. It's sort of like, is this worth the time.To like really invest in it when my heart really isn't right. Like how can I maintain your 400 K in revenue a year?[00:17:02] Nathan:Right.[00:17:03] Matthew:What's it going to take, you know, is that the best use of our resources? And the answer is not really, you know, let other people do that. Who love it. I mean, you want to buy my information.It's it's solid stuff. Right. Everyone loves the advice, but to really create like a cohort, like your class, which is sort of like the new version of courses, you know, like, whether it's a month or three months, it's sort of like, you go with this like cohort, right. My heart really wasn't into it because we can invest more in doing events and conferences and really in-person stuff.Especially now that everyone's really excited to do stuff in person again, with a lot less competition. It's easy. It's easy to start a course, but there's a lot of capital investment in doing events that we have the resource to do that, you know, somebody with a 10,000 email list might not.[00:18:03] Nathan:I think I see a lot of people going into courses in, particularly as you alluded to cohort based courses where they're doing it, like, Hey, this is a whole class that you're doing, you know, you're doing the fall semester for the month of October or whatever it is, I'm doing it, doing it the first time and really enjoying it because it's a new challenge they're showing up for their audience.It's just, it's super fun on that, doing it for the second time and going, huh? Okay. That was way easier and way less. And then the third time they go, I don't think I want to do this anymore. Like if the money is good and I just don't enjoy showing up at a set time for a zoom call or whatever else. So it's interesting of watching people jump on a bandwagon and some people it works for really well, and that is their strength and they love it.And then other people that I'm going to like, look, the money's good. And this is this just, isn't what I want to spend my time on.[00:19:02] Matthew:Yeah. You know, I've been doing it for, you know, seven, eight years now and I just sort of lost the passion for, you know, I think it's, I like when people take the information, they succeed with it. But I think after a while you start to realize, you know, it's sort of a 90 10 rule, right? You, 90% of your students, aren't really going to do anything with it.And it's not your fault. It's just because they become unmotivated or, you know, so we tried to switch to the cohort based to be like, okay, this is the class weekly, weekly calls.You know, come on, come together and you still get this drop off rate. That's, you know, sort, it gets this hard and you're like, all right, I've been doing this for eight years, you know, like moving on.But I mean, if you have the love for like pat loves it, you know, like you've got a whole team about it, he's got all these cohorts stuff that speaks to him where I think I'd rather do stuff in person that[00:20:01] Nathan:Right.Well, let's talk about the in-person side. Cause you did something that most people think is really cool and almost no one realizes how hard it is. I think I know how hard it is because I've attempted the same thing and that starting at a conference where everyone's like, you have this big online following, like what you just need to, you know, you have hundreds of thousands of people you just need, I don't know, 500 or a thousand of them to show up in a suit, that's gotta be easy.Right. And so they go and sort of conference, it's wildly difficult. And so.[00:20:33] Matthew:Difficult.[00:20:34] Nathan:I'd love to hear what made you want to start the conference and then yeah, how's it. How's it gone so far?[00:20:40] Matthew:Made me want to start the conference was I really don't think there's a good conference in the chapel space. Yeah. And there are good conferences in the travel space that are very niche and narrow. you know, like there's a woman in travel summit.That's really great. There's one in Europe culture verse, which I liked, but that's like a couple of hundred people there. Wasn't like a, something to scale, right. With wits, which is women to travel is like 300 people. There was, this is no thousand person, 2000 parts. And like mega travel conference for media that has done like, you know, the conferences we go to where it's like high level, you know, people coming outside of your immediate niche to talk about business skills.You know, there's, you know, In the conferences, there are, there's always the same travel, like it's me and like these other big names, travel bloggers over and over and over again. I want to take what I've seen and, you know, from social media world to, trafficking conversion, to mastermind talks, you know, to take all these things that I had gone to, we were like, let's bring it together for travel.Let's create a high level, not a cheap, like hundred dollar events, like, you know, with major keynotes who get paid to speak, because you know, in a lot of travel conferences, you don't get paid to speak, right? So you're high. You're going to get, you know, Cheryl strayed that come to your event for free.That's not waking up to do that. You know, I, you know, and while I can get nice deals from my friends, you still got to pay people right. For their time. And, and so that allows us to have a larger pool of people to create the event that I want to do. Because we will also get into the point where why should somebody who's been blogging for five or six years, go to travel blogging conference app when nobody is at a more advanced stage of blogging than you are, you know, nobody understands SEO better than you do, right?So like after a while you get into this, just drop off of people being like, do I want to fly around the world and hang out with my friends? So I wanted to also create an event where that I could go to and learn something is that I knew that would attract some of the other OJI, travel bloggers.[00:23:06] Nathan:Yeah. So how the, how the first one go, like what was easier than you expected and what was much harder than you.[00:23:14] Matthew:The first one went really well. We had 650 people, and you know, the next one we had 800. But now we're closed because of Kobe, but we're going to do one in 20, 22. And hopefully we get 800 again, things that shocked me, people buy tickets and don't show up. Right. That's weird. Right. Cause I was like, okay, we have 700, you know, I expected maybe like a 5% attrition rate, you know?So like I sold my 750 tickets, but then like six 50, those 600 showed up because the other 50 of those speakers, right. I was like, wow, that's a lot of no-shows for not achieving conference, you know? And so we plan, you know, a 10% attrition rate now.[00:24:04] Nathan:And you just mean someone who doesn't even pick up their badge? Not even, they didn't come to share us rates keynote, but just like they didn't show up to anything at the conference.[00:24:13] Matthew:Yeah, they just did not show up to the conference at all, you know? And. So that was a shock me. I mean, I know I work in travel and, you know, people get last minute of press trips or they, you know, they buy their ticket and they can't come cause, or they got stuck in the Seychelles or whatever, but I did not expect such a high level of no-shows. Because the food here's another thing, food costs a lot of money. Right.You know, I, I fully understand why the airlines took one olive out of your salad. Right. Because it's one olive, but times a million people every day it's actually adds up. Right. So like you think, oh, well it drinks five bucks.That's cool. We'll do a happy hour. Okay. Now times that by a thousand drinks Write, you know, times two, because everyone's drinking two or three, at least two. Right. So then you're like, okay, that's a $15,000 bill that you ended up with. you know, when everyone is all set up. Tax and tip hotel.It's crazy. It's like, okay, these fees, you're like, oh, I got to spend this like, yeah. Okay. Here is your lunch bill 50 grand.But then there's this fee that fee, this fee, this fee like Jake had like 65. You're like, all right. I guess I got a budget for that too. So that was, that was really weird. Like high is the lunch cost, $40,000, you know, and actually hotels, overcharge, and they add a bunch of fees and yeah, you can get them pretty quick.[00:25:46] Nathan:So if you were, if I was starting to conference. They have 50,000 people on a email list or a hundred thousand. And I'm like, Matt, I heard you started a conference. I'm going to do it too. What advice do you have for me? Like what are the first things that you'd call out?[00:26:03] Matthew:It's going to cost like three times more than you think. pricing. Where I went wrong in the second year. Right. So like we've lost money the first two years doing it, but I expected to lose money. It wasn't because I was investing in this long-term thing. Right. But we're at where I lost more money on the second year is that I really factor in flights as well as I did, like I kind of low balled it.And so I always think he should. Oh. And I also invited, I kept inviting people without really seeing, like, where was I? on my like speaker fees. Right. So like really creating a budget and then sticking to it. And even if that means not getting some of your dream folks, to a later year, but working up the food and beverage costs first, because you know, you go to the hotel and they're going to say your F and B, you know, is $90,000.And if they never going to hit that, no, you're going to go way. You're going to blow cause you got to get them to say, what are all the fees? You know, like, okay. You know, if I have a 300 person conference and I want to do two lunches, what does that look like?Plus all the taxes and fees,[00:27:23] Nathan:Okay, well, you, the launch price and you'll, you'll pencil that into your spreadsheet and they'll fail to mention that there's mandatory gratuity on top of that and taxes and whatever[00:27:33] Matthew:Yeah,And whatever, you know, plate fee there is. Right. So you gotta factor all that in and then look at what you got left.[00:27:40] Nathan:It's like when you're buying a car and you have to talk in terms of the out the door price in[00:27:45] Matthew:Yeah.[00:27:46] Nathan:The sticker price,[00:27:47] Matthew:Yeah. I made that mistake when I bought my car last year, I was like, oh 17. And I was like, wait, how did 17 go from 17,000 to 22? And like, well,[00:27:56] Nathan:Right.[00:27:57] Matthew:Thing that I was like, ah, okay,[00:28:00] Nathan:Yeah. Do you think w what are some of the opportunities that have come out from running the conference and has it had the effects of your community that you've hoped? It would,[00:28:10] Matthew:You know, this is a very, blogger faced event, you know, more than just travel consumers. but it's definitely allowed me to, you know, meet folks like Cheryl Austrade, you know, great way to meet your heroes. Is there pay them to come speak at a conference? so, you know, I, I know Cheryl, like, that's cool.The becoming more ingrained in sort of the, the PR side and with the demos and the brands, because, you know, on the website, I destination marketing organization.[00:28:44] Nathan:Okay.[00:28:45] Matthew:So they're like, you know, visit, you know, Boise visit Idaho, we call them a DMO. And so like since I don't really do press trips on the website, I don't know a lot of them really well.And so this has been a way to be, become more ingrained on that sort of industry side of events and not live in my own. and that's helpful because now I know all these folks, when we want to have meetups that might be sponsored when I do a consumer event, which is next up. So get these folks to come for that.So it's just really been good, just professionally to meet a lot of people that I would normally just not meet simply because I go to events and they were like, Hey, come to our destination, we'll give you a free trip. And like, you have a policy. And so I don't get invited to as many things as you would think.[00:29:37] Nathan:Yeah. Why, why do you have that policy? What do you like? What's behind it. And why is that different from other travel bloggers?[00:29:45] Matthew:Hi, it mostly stems from my hatred of reciprocity. You know, like if you, if I go on a free trip and it sucks, like I then create, it's awkward. If I have to go like hot, like, Hey, you suck. And I have to write this online. Then it creates a lot of bad blood that gets talked about, you know, it's a very small industry.People move around a lot, so you get less opportunities or I can just go, Hey, I'm not going to write that. And then they feel bad. Cause like, you know, like you're a nice person just doing their job, you know, like it's not your fault. I had a bad time. you know, I did this once with a friend and she gave me a couple of places to stay, at a hotel in San Jose, Costa Rica and chill out and sort of tell was really far out of town.And th the amount it took me to take a taxi back and forth. Like, I could've just got a place right. In the center of San Jose, you know? And so I was like, I really, I just don't think it's a good fit for my Anya. And she was very unhappy about it. I was like, I mean, I could write in, but I have to say that.Right. Yeah. And so I just never wanted to put myself in those situations again. I also think that taking a lot of free travel, like I do budget travel. So you given me a resort like that. Doesn't how does that help my audience? So if I start living this awesome life and getting free stuff, that's great for me, but it's not good for my audience.And so I don't mind taking free tours. Like, let's say I'm going to go to Scotland. Right? I did. This actually was real life example. I wanted to access cause I wanted to write about scotch. So I was like, Hey, I don't want to do like the public tour. you know, that 20 bucks, you know, it's like 10 minutes and you get the, I like, I want to talk to people because I want quotes for articles.I'm going to do like history stuff. So I contacted the Scottish tourism board and they got, got me visited. I that's where I went to. I just love P scotch. and so they got me like private tours. So I can like take notes in such. and they gave me a free accommodation that I was like, I want to be really clear about this.I'm not mentioning this place. And they're like, just, just take it. And so, and I didn't mention it and I didn't mention that, you know, I got access to these, you know, distillers to ask some questions, but it was more about building this article as a journalist than,Hey, I want like free tours, you know, like, I mean, I saved 20 bucks. Right. But the point was, I wanted to learn about the process to write about this story beam. And then they offered me free flights and stuff. It was like, now I just, I just want the tourist, please. Thanks.[00:32:44] Nathan:Yeah, it's interesting of the, what a lot of people would view as the perks to get into travel blogging. Right. I want to get into it because then I'd have these free chips or I can have these offs or whatever else, I guess the right apps you get, no matter what, but, You know that that's the other side of like, everything comes with a cost.And I think it's important to realize what you're doing because you want to versus what you're doing, because now you feel obligated because someone gave you something for free.[00:33:12] Matthew:Yeah. The most thing is I tend to accept our city tourism part, which gets you like free access to museums and stuff. I was like, okay, that's cool.But beyond that, I just, you know, I don't want to get into, like, you want to give me a museum pass. I'm going to see these museums anyway. Sure. I'll save some money and I'll, I'll make a wheel note, but I'm going to no obligation to write about which museum, because I write about the ones I like anyway.So,[00:33:39] Nathan:Right.[00:33:40] Matthew:You know, that's not to me like free travel. That's not what people think of Like the perks of. the job are.[00:33:46] Nathan:I, that was funny. When I learned about the, like the welcome packet that cities will, will give, like the first time I saw it in action was. I went to Chris, Guillebeau's like end of the world party in Norway. and I was hanging out with Benny Lewis there who runs, you know, fluent in three months, a mutual friend of both of ours.You've known him longer than I have, but like, we're both at our check into the hotel and he's got like this whole thing of all these museum passes he's got, and he's just like, yeah, I just emailed the tourism board and said, I was going to say, and they're like, oh, blogger. And they gave him like, you know, access to everything and you only ended up using half of it because we weren't there for that long, but,[00:34:28] Matthew:Yeah. That's great. You should always get these discount cards, like the comparison museum pass or the New York mic go card that will save you a lot of money if you're doing lots of heavy sites in.[00:34:39] Nathan:Yeah. Yeah, for sure. okay. So how does actually let's dive into the COVID side, right? Cause COVID took a hit huge hit on the entire traveling. we saw that just in the like running ConvertKit where, you know, having bloggers in so many different areas, we had a lot of growth because lots of people were stuck at home and start like, I'm going to start a new blog.I'm going to have time to, to work on this or whatever. And it was a lot of cancellations, mostly from the travel industry. If people like, look now that what this 50,000 person list, that was a huge asset is now just a giant liability. because no one's planning trips. How did you navigate that time? And what, like, what's the journey been?You know, the last 18 months, two years,[00:35:28] Matthew:Well first I would say that's really shortsighted of someone canceling their 50,000 person list like[00:35:34] Nathan:I think they were like exporting sitting on it and they're going to come back. But, but I agree. It was very shortsighted.[00:35:39] Matthew:Yeah. Like just like throw it away. 50,000 emails, right. I mean, it was tough in the beginning. You know, we went from like January and February were like best months ever, you know? And like, I mean, even, and then all of a sudden like, like March 13th is like that Friday, you know, it's like everything crashes, like again, like we were on our way to have a banner year, like, like, like hand over fist money, you know?And, and then to being like, how am I going to pay the bills? You know? and so, cause you know, we, haven't sort of the, the overhang from Java con, right. You know, like we didn't make money on the first two years. And year three was the, the breakeven year and travel con was in, Right in the world ended in March.Right. And so I had laid out all, like, you're so close to the event, that's you? That's when you start paying your bills. Right. And the world hits and all the sponsors who, you know, have their money, you know, in the accounting department are like, oh, we're not paying this now. And so you're like, well, I've just paid $80,000 in deposits and all that money that was going to offset.It has gone. and then you have people canceling. A lot of people were really mean about it. They're like, oh, I'm, I'm back now. And we're going to do charge backs, that, you know, you have that overhang and just, you know, fall in revenue it's it was really tough. thank God for government loans, to be quite honest, like I, I went to native through if it wasn't for, all that, because a lot of my.My money was tied up in non-liquid assets. So it wasn't like I could just like sell some socks though, you know, pay the bills. but things have come back a lot. I mean, there's a lot of paint up the man, for travel, I view it like this way, right? You got kids, right. You know, they get in trouble, you take away their toy and then you give them back.Right. Where do they want to do now? They just want to play with that toy even more because it's like, no, it's mine. No one else can have it. And like where you want to do this other toy. No. And so now that the toy of travel is being given back to people like people are like, never again, am I going to miss out on this opportunity to travel on my dream trips?Let's make it happen. So we had a really good summer. I spoke to mediocre fall and winter just as the kids are back in school, people are traveling less, you know, but as more in the world, that? will be good. but again, as I said, at the beginning of this, it's going to take awhile for us to get, to get back to where we were, but there's definitely demand there,[00:38:36] Nathan:When's the next conference when the travel con happening again.[00:38:39] Matthew:April 29th,[00:38:41] Nathan:Okay.[00:38:41] Matthew:22,[00:38:42] Nathan:So what's the how of ticket sales benefit for that? Is there like that pent-up demand showing up and people booking conference tickets or are they kind of like, wait and see, you know, you're not going to cancel this one too kind of thing.[00:38:55] Matthew:Yeah, I mean, we're definitely not canceling it. I mean, the world would have to really end for it. We just launched, this week. So, early October, we just announced our first round of speakers. and we sold like 10 or 15 tickets. I don't expect a lot of people, to buy until the new year I saw this.And the old event, right? Because in the old event we were had in May, 2019. Right. And we announced in the fall, but it wasn't until like, you know, a few months prior that people started buy their ticket. Right. Because they don't know where they're going to be. You know, where are they flying from? What were the COVID rules going to be like, the demand is there.But I, I know people are probably just waiting and seats for their own schedule too, you know? So, but you were against so 800 tickets and honestly, from what I've heard from other events, you know, people are selling out, you know, because there was such demand, like it's not a problem of selling the tickets, so I'm not sure.[00:40:01] Nathan:Yeah, one thing, this is just a question that I'm curious for myself. since I also run a conference, what do you think about conferences that rotate cities or like Mo you know, move from city to city, which we've been to a lot of them that do it. You know, the fin con podcast movement areTwo longer running ones that you and I have both been to. obviously that's what you're doing. The travel column. well, domination summit, which we've both been to a lot, you know, it was like very much it's Portland. It's always Portland. We'll never be anywhere anywhere else. What do you think, why did you chose? Why did you choose the approach that you did in what you think the pros and cons are?[00:40:39] Matthew:Yeah, for, for me it was, you know, we're in travel. I wanted to travel. Right. And plus, you know, I mean, you get up, we get a host, right? So like Memphis is our sponsor. Right. It's in Memphis. Yeah, it was supposed to be in new Orleans. New Orleans was our host sponsor. Right. So moving it from city to city allows us to get, you know, a new host sponsor every year is going to pony up a bunch of money.Right. I don't know how Podcast move into it, but I think if I wasn't in travel and it was more something like traffic and conversion, or maybe we'll domination summit, I would probably do it in the same place over and over again because you get better consistency. you know, one of the things I hate about events is that they move dates and move locations.Right. And, and so it's a little hard to in travel cause you know, COVID really screwed us. Right. But we're moving to being, you know, in the same timeframe, right. We're always going to be in early May. That's where I want to fall into like early may travel car, change the city, but you got the same two-week window, because it's hard to plan, right?So like if you're changing dates in cities, you're, you're just off of a year. So I wanted some consistency, make it easier for people to know, like in their calendar, Java con early Mac, Java con, early Mac, you[00:42:17] Nathan:Yep.[00:42:18] Matthew:It doesn't really work out cause of COVID, but post COVID we're we're moving to that, that, early may[00:42:24] Nathan:Yeah. Okay. So let's talk more about sort of scaling different between different levels of the business. So there's a lot of people who say, all right, 10, 20, 50,000 subscribers, somewhere in there. And it's very much the solopreneur of like, this is, I'm a writer. I just do this myself. Or maybe they, you know, contract out graphic design or a little bit more than that.What were some of the hardest things for you and why and what worked and what didn't when you made the switch from it being nomadic, Matt being just Matt to Matt plus a team.[00:43:00] Matthew:Yeah, it It's definitely hard to give up that control, right. Because you always think no one can do your business better than you can. And I mean, even to this day, I still have issues doing, you know, giving up control. Right.[00:43:14] Nathan:What's something that you don't want to, that you're like still holding onto that, you know, you need to let go of[00:43:19] Matthew:Probably just little things like checking in on people and, you know, Content probably like Content. I'm very specific about my voice, the voice we have. So. But I should let my content, people make the content that I know is fine. but I definitely, probably overly check on my teams to be like, what'd you do today?You know, you know, that kind of stuff. but I did take a vacation recently and I went offline for a week and they didn't run the thing down. So I was like, oh right. That was my like, okay, I can, I can let go. And it's going to be okay. But, so getting comfortable with that much earlier on, I would probably save you a lot of stress and anxiety.I definitely think you should move to at least having somebody, you know, a part-time VA, if you're making over six figures, hire somebody because you know, how are you are not going to go from a 100k to 500k really by yourself? Unless, you know, you just have some crazy funnel that you do, but even the people I know who are solopreneurs, they still have two or three people helping them a little bit part, even if it's just part-time because the more money you make, the more time you have to spend keeping that income up.And so your goal as the creator in the owner should be, how can I grow? How can I make more money? It should not be setting up your WordPress blog. You know, It should not be answering joke emails It should not be, you know, scheduling your social media on Hootsuite, that kind of low level stuff can be done by, you know, a part-time VA And maybe that part-time VA becomes a full-time VA as you scale up more. But you know, if you, you have to free up your time and you're never going to free up your time, if you're spending a lot of that time, scheduling. So you mean that the people I know who have half a million dollar businesses, selling courses, you know, and they're really just a solopreneur.They have somebody do that grunt work, right. Plus if you're making that much money, is that the best use of your time now? Really? Right. So getting somebody to do sort of the admin front work, as soon as you can, even if it's on a part-time basis will allow you to focus on growth marketing, and monetization, which is where you should be like Podcast.This week. I have like four or five podcasts I'm doing, right. You know, that is a good chunk of my week. If I have to spend that time scheduling on social media, you know, or setting up blog posts, like I can do that. And this is where the growth in the audience comes in.[00:46:12] Nathan:Okay. So since we're talking about growth, what are the things that you can tie to the effort that you put in that drives growth? Are there direct things or is it a very indirect unattributable[00:46:27] Matthew:Yeah, I think there's some direct things like, you know, before, you know, asking 10 years ago, I would say guest posting on websites. Right. You write a guest post on like Confederacy's site and boom, tons of traffic. Right. that doesn't exist anymore. I mean, yeah. You can get a lot of traffic, but it's not like the huge windfall it used to be, but it's still good for brand awareness.SEO. Great for links. Right. I would say things today that I can tie directly to stuff Podcast and, Instagram. So doing, like, doing a joint Instagram live with another creator. Right. You know, like me and, you know, it's I know pat. because someone with a big following there, we do, we do a talk, you know, 30 minutes, you know, I can see in my analytics, like a huge spike in my following right after that.And so that's a great way to sort of grow your audience is to do Instagram collabs in just like 30 minutes tops and[00:47:32] Nathan:Podcasts[00:47:33] Matthew:I get a lot of people will be like, I saw you on this podcast. I was like, wow, cool.[00:47:37] Nathan:I always struggle with that of like, of all the activities that you can do. Cause you get to a point where there's just so many opportunities open to you and it's like, which are the best use of time. What should you say yes to, what should you say no to, and I don't know. Do you have a filter along those or do you just, is it just kind of gut-feel[00:47:53] Matthew:I will say yes to any text-based interview, normally it is the same questions over and over again. So I sort of have a lot of canned responses that I can just kind of paste. and tweak But those are links, so I'm like, sure. Yeah. Send your questions over. Cut paste, tweak, you know, you know,[00:48:12] Nathan:Customize[00:48:13] Matthew:Customize a little bit, but you know, how many times do I need to rewrite from scratch?How'd you get into blogging, you know, what's your favorite country, Podcasts I definitely have a bigger filter on like you, I don't do new podcasts.[00:48:27] Nathan:Okay.[00:48:27] Matthew:I know that's like bad. because you know, this new podcast could become the next big thing, but come back to me when you have some following.[00:48:36] Nathan:I like Seth, Godin's rule I'm not on south Dakotan's level by any means, but he says like, come back to me. When you have 100 episodes, I will happily be your 100th interview on your podcast or something[00:48:47] Matthew:Yeah.[00:48:48] Nathan:And he's just like, look, Put in your time and then we'll talk.[00:48:51] Matthew:Yeah, so I like, I don't look for just following, but like again, you know, knowing that people give up on blogs, people give up Podcast too. So. You know, you have to have been doing it for like six months a year, like week a weekly, you know? So I know like this something you care about. and I like to listen because you know, you get a lot of new people and they're not really great.You know, they asked us like a lot of canned questions and you're like, listen, you're taking, you know, an hour, hour and a half of my time. You gotta make it interesting for me.Well, yeah, Podcast. And then for Instagram stories you gotta have, or Instagram lives, either a brand new audience, or if you're in travel, at least 75,000.Cause I have like a one 30, so I want to keep it in the same in a level.[00:49:43] Nathan:Yeah.I know nothing about Instagram and promotions on Instagram and all of that is there. If someone were to, like, in my case, if I came to you and say, Hey, I want to grow my Instagram following. I've got 3000 people or 5,000 people or something like that. And I want to be have 50,000 a year from now.Where would you point me?[00:50:05] Matthew:I would say, do you join Instagram lives with people like once a week, you know, and just, or maybe once a week for you and then go to somebody else on their side once a week. So, and just kind of work your way up, like find people in your, your sort of follower count level, you know? So in this case, I'd probably do, you know, you know, 1000 to 5,000, I would look for in your niche and like get online for 30 minutes and talk about whatever it is you want to talk about and and then go to someone else's channel and do that, and then keep doing that because you'll just see giant spikes and then you can move up the the ladder.Then you have 10,000 followers and someone with 25,000 followers might give you the time of day. And then you talk about that, you know, and you just sort of build awareness because you're always there. You're always around.[00:51:03] Nathan:It's a really good point about the figuring out what those rough bands are and reaching out within those. Because I think a lot of people are like, I'm going to go pitch whoever on doing Instagram live together. And it's like, you have 5,000 and they have 150,000. And like the content might be a perfect fit, but they're most likely going to say no, because you're not[00:51:24] Matthew:Yeah.[00:51:24] Nathan:Driving that much value for, or that many subscribers for their audience.[00:51:29] Matthew:Yeah. You know, and so you, maybe I would, you know, someone was like a finance blogger, and they had like 40,000, 30, 40,000. I'd probably.We do it because people who like to say money, like say money on travel. So it'd be like, there's probably a good fit. And you know, 30,000 people, they might not know me or they have like, like you said, 3000, come back to me, you know, when there's another zero,[00:51:57] Nathan:Right. Well, and then the other thing that's going to be true is if I'm bringing you to, to my audience to share and teach something, if you're using this strategy, like go do another 20 of these or 50 of these, and your pitch will be better. And the way that you teach finance to travel bloggers or whatever else it is, is going to get so much better.[00:52:17] Matthew:Yeah,[00:52:18] Nathan:It's like, I kind of don't want to be your Guinea pig. You know, I don't want my audience to be your Guinea[00:52:23] Matthew:Yeah,[00:52:24] Nathan:Pig for your content. And so just get more experienced and come back.[00:52:28] Matthew:Yeah. And you know, you also gotta think about, you know, people are so time-starved right. You know, when I started blogging, I could. There was no Instagram. There was no Snapchat. There was no Tech-Talk, you know, Twitter was barely a thing. So I didn't have to split my focus on so many different platforms and channels.Right. I can just, alright, I can be on this one blog, but now when people are like, whoa, sorry, I have to like manage all these different social channels and all of these comments in the blog and everything. They not don't have like an hour to give, you know, to just anybody way do you could have before,[00:53:12] Nathan:Yeah. Yeah. That's so true. Okay. So on the email side, specifically, if someone came to you with say 1,000 newsletter subscribers today, and they're like, I want to grow, I mean, you're looking to grow to 5,000. This might be so far removed from where you're at that you're like, I don't even know if that was, you know, a decade ago that I was in that position, but what are you seeing that's working?Where would you point them?[00:53:33] Matthew:What works for us right now? one having email forms everywhere on your site, sidebar, footer, we have one below the content below the content forms, and popups, popups, the work they're really great. we find for really long posts, having a form in the middle of the post converts better than, at the end of the post, because know a A lot of people don't read to the end, but when they get to in the middle you're still there.You know, if you look at heat maps are really long websites, right? You just see that drop-off right. So if all your forms are at the bottom of the page, they're just not getting the visibility, that you need. so middle of the page,[00:54:19] Nathan:Do you play with a lot of different incentives of like, you know, Opt-in for this fee guide, you know, or are you customizing it to something for a particular country or there, the content that they're reading[00:54:30] Matthew:Yeah, so we use OptinMonster for that. and so we have, like, if If you go to our pages that are tagged Europe, you get a whole different set of options. than if you go to Australia, like, and like the incentives are like, you know, best hostels in Europe, you know, best hostels in Australia, right? Like little checklist guides.And I tweak what the copy for that, you know, just to see what wording, will lift up a better conversion rate. But yeah, we definitely, because, you know, we cover so many geographic areas. The needs of someone going to Europe are a little different than somebody going to New Zealand. So we, we definitely customize that kind of messaging. And I think that helps a lot, you know, and definitely customizing messaging as much as possible. Um know, but in terms of just, you know, we can talk about, you know, the market, like how do you word things, but middle pop-ups and mil of blog posts definitely converts the best. And so like that's where we see a lot of growth, as well as, just on Instagram telling people to sign up for my newsletter or Twitter or Facebook, but don't let the algorithm, you know, keep you from your travel tips, sign up now and people do.[00:55:58] Nathan:Okay. And is that like swipe up on stories that you're doing[00:56:02] Matthew:Yeah.[00:56:03] Nathan:You know, on an Instagram live or all the above?[00:56:06] Matthew:All the above.[00:56:07] Nathan:Yeah.[00:56:07] Matthew:You just constantly reminding people to sign up for the list, you know, and. One of the failings of so many important for influencers today is, you know,They always regret everyone as everyone does. They always regret not starting to list, you know? And so, you know, you just got to hammer into people, sign up for the list, sign up for the list, sign up for the list.Yeah. And a lot of the copy is, do you see all my updates? No. Would you like to sign up for this newsletter?[00:56:39] Nathan:Yeah, because everyone knows. I mean, I come across people all the time. It's like, I used to follow them on Instagram. I haven't seen, oh no, I do still follow them on Instagram. Instagram just decided that I apparently didn't engage with their content enough or something.[00:56:53] Matthew:Yeah,[00:56:54] Nathan:So now I no longer see their posts,[00:56:56] Matthew:Yeah. You like, I go, I always go to my like 50 least interacted profiles. Right. And, you know, there are some people that aren't there. I interact with this guy all the time. How is this the least attractive? But that that's Instagram and saying, here are the people we don't show you in your feet.[00:57:13] Nathan:W where do you see that? Is that[00:57:16] Matthew:If you go to your, who you're following, it's it should be up on the top.[00:57:20] Nathan:Hmm. All right. I'll have to look at that.[00:57:22] Matthew:Yeah. I'll send you a screenshot. and so like, that's the algorithm be like, here are the people who you interact with the least, but it's like, no, I, I love their stuff. why why do it take them from me? So,[00:57:36] Nathan:Zuckerberg is like, do you really love their stuff? I just not feeling it.[00:57:40] Matthew:Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, yeah, it's just, you know, the algorithms are terrible and what I hate and I learned this last year, and this was sort of a unsurprising, but surprising thing is that stories, which used to be like the latest first.[00:57:59] Nathan:Yeah.[00:57:59] Matthew:That is, they have an algorithm for that now, too. And I was like, I, I shouldn't be surprised, but I am surprised.And I'm annoyed by that because like, I liked it when it was just the newest first, but Nope, now that is based on, you know, sort of like Tik TOK thing of like, oh, this story is getting really a lot of interactions. We'll bring it up the front of people's queue or, you know, so it's not just like your first, because you had one, one second ago, you know, like it could, it's based on an algorithm[00:58:35] Nathan:Yeah.And that's how it's all going to go. Facebook did that a lot, you know, with Facebook fan pages back in the day where it used to be fantastic for engagement. And then they were like, yeah, it's fantastic. If you pay us[00:58:46] Matthew:Yeah. And even then it's like, I would pay to boost posts. I was like, great. You saw, I lectured five people. What? I just gave you a hundred bucks and that was. And there was some guy you remember him commenting last year. He was like, whatever happened to this page? I was like, I'm still here. He's like, no, no, no, no.And this isn't a common thread in Facebook. He's like your pages to get a lot more engagement. What happened? I was like, oh, Facebook algorithm. I was like, people just don't see it. Let me tell you where all my analytics side it's like this page. So I have 2000 people. You're like great. 1%, woo[00:59:23] Nathan:Do you do paid advertising? I'd like to get email subscribers.[00:59:28] Matthew:We used to, but, the CPMs went up so much that it wasn't worth the effort. You know, like paying a dollar 52 bucks for an email subscriber, is just a lot of money for, for, for things. We don't mind ties directly. Like we're not taking people through finals buy a course, right? Like just to get rot email, I'm not paying two bucks for.Yeah. And, and so I just, we stopped paying, like during the pandemic, like, June, June of last year, we were like, oh, we're going to take a break. And then we paid somebody to help us for it to make kind of reset it up. But I just had to spend down so much. I was like, you know what, I'm going to turn off for a bit.And yeah, that's been like,[01:00:17] Nathan:Didn't really miss it.[01:00:18] Matthew:Yeah, I looked at the numbers recently cause I was thinking, should we do it? And it's not that big of a difference of just doing it organically on like Instagram stories or just on the page. Right. And I also don't really like giving money to the Zuckerberg empire of VO. I just not a fan of that business.And so like, I know my ad spend is low, but I can't say just. On a rod number. Like it wasn't that big of a deal. Like, you know, like, cause the CPMs were so high, we were having to pay a lot of money. So like we put in like two grand a month and we weren't getting thousands. We getting hundreds of people, you know, I want four for two grand.I want thousands of people.[01:01:06] Nathan:Yeah. For my local newsletter, we're doing paid advertising on Facebook and Instagram and averaging about $2 per subscriber. And that I think now that's considered pretty good. You'd like a lot of, with a broader audience, you'd be at $3 or more per subscriber and it gets expensive pretty fast.[01:01:23] Matthew:Yeah. I mean, but I think at some point you'll just see such diminishing returns that, you know, I mean, how many people are in Boise, can you hit, you know, over and over again?Right.[01:01:35] Nathan:Yep.[01:01:36] Matthew:I, I was just reading Seth Godin's book. This is Marketing. And he said, you know, they talked about ads.You turned off ads when the Content says turn ‘em off. And my Content, I was like, you know, they're not really paying for themselves.[01:01:50] Nathan:Yeah. Let's see. Yeah. You turn that off. Looking forward, maybe like two or three years is that I think your business has fascinating of the approach that you have of taking an online audience, building a real team around it, and then building it into the in-person community. what do you think the business is going to look like in two, three years?Where, where is revenue coming from? What's your vision for the events and meetups and what are the things that like over that time period, they get really excited.[01:02:19] Matthew:Yeah. Two, three years. So we're talking, you know, 20 by 20, 23, most of our revenue coming from stuff in person, you know, having chapters around the world, people pay to go to them. So, you know, it it's like 10 bucks and you can bring your friends for free, right. So it's like five bucks versus. Just for the cost of like hosting events.Right. doing lots of that, doing tours, we're bringing back. and they won't be just with me cause they're community events. Right. So we'll have guides, right. So it's not just, you're coming to travel with me, sort of what Rick, Steve does. Right. You go on and Rick Steves tour, it's his itinerary, but he's not on the tour.Right. He shows up to a couple of them throughout the season when it's not like you don't expect him to be your guide at the time. So moving to that, having a consumer event for like, like a, like a world domination summit, you know, a weekend somewhere just for travel consumers, having an app for both having an app for that company. then online just being a lot of and affiliates and you know, even me. Just even taking away just having this like passive income course, just because, you know, one less thing to worry about. Right.And then travel con, so being around, but actually making money this time.[01:03:47] Nathan:Do you think travel con is going to turn into, I mean, obviously it's a significant amount of revenue, but the expenses are so high. Do you think it will turn into a profitable business[01:03:56] Matthew:Oh yeah. Yeah. Like, I mean, a lot of the unprofitability is just comes from the fact that I had no idea where that was doing.[01:04:02] Nathan:Yeah, I know that firsthand from my own conference, so yeah.[01:04:07] Matthew:It was, I didn't realize how quickly expenses gets that. Right. You know, being like, oh, okay. Like my food and beverage budget is 120,000 writing that in there. And then getting $145,000 bill because, oh yeah, it's 120,000 food, but then there's tax fees, which we, you know, all this stuff and like, Okay, well, that's $25,000 off the profit.Right. and so with a better handle of expenses, like we were definitely like this year, we were gonna like reg even, you know, at the very minimum, we'll pre COVID and this year we'll also break break event. Um it's and just keeping a handle on, you know, like, well, how will I don't invite a hundred speakers, you know?And, and be like, oh, I had planned to only budget, you know, 50,000 speaker fees, but now I'm at 80. Okay. Like, handling the cost better. We're good. Now I have a professional events team that kind of slaps me around and it's like, can't spend that money.[01:05:06] Nathan:I know how it is, where I'm like, Hey, what if, and then just like, now[01:05:10] Matthew:Yeah,[01:05:10] Nathan:Love it, but no,[01:05:12] Matthew:Yeah,[01:05:12] Nathan:Don't like, you don't have the budget for it.[01:05:15] Matthew:Yeah. But no, I mean, you know, we used to have a party. And we're getting rid of the second night party because people don't want to go. Like we didn't have a lot of people show up cause like they're out and about on town. So it's like, wow, I just spent, you know, $40,000 for like a third of the conference to come, you know, why not take that money and use it to something that's more valuable for everybody that has more like impact for dollar spent and still not like go over budget.You know, same thing with lunches. We got, we were getting rid of, we're doing one lunch now.You know, cause people don't really care that much, you know, about in[01:06:01] Nathan:Yeah, it's super interesting.Well, I love the vision of where the conference is going, and particularly just the way that the whole community interplays. I think it's been fun watching you figure out what you want your business model to be, because obviously, with a large audience, your business model can be any one of a hundred different variations.I like that you keep iterating on it, and figuring out the community.[01:06:26] Matthew:Yeah, we're definitely going

Andrew Warner has been part of the internet startup scene since 1997. Andrew and his brother built a $30 million per year online business, which they later sold. After taking an extended vacation and doing some traveling, Andrew started Mixergy. Mixergy helps ambitious upstarts learn from some of the most successful people in business.Andrew and I talk about his new book, Stop Asking Questions. It's a great read on leading dynamic interviews, and learning anything from anyone. We also talk about longevity and burnout as an entrepreneur. Andrew gives me feedback about my interviewing style, the direction I should take the podcast, and much more.In this episode, you'll learn: Why you need to understand and communicate your mission How to get your guest excited about being interviewed What to do instead of asking questions How to hook your audience and keep them engaged Links & Resources ConvertKit Gregg Spiridellis JibJab Ali Abdaal The Web App Challenge: From Zero to $5,000/month In 6 Months Groove Zendesk Help Scout Jordan Harbinger Noah Kagan Bob Hiler Seth Godin Morning Brew Alex Lieberman Keap (formerly Infusionsoft) Notion Sahil Bloom Ryan Holiday Brent Underwood Ghost Town Living Trust Me, I'm Lying: Confessions of a Media Manipulator Damn Gravity Paul Graham Y Combinator Nathan Barry: Authority Ira Glass NPR This American Life Barbara Walters Richard Nixon interview Oprah interview with Lance Armstrong Matt Mullenweg Chris Pearson Conspiracy: Peter Thiel, Hulk Hogan, Gawker, and the Anatomy of Intrigue Peter Thiel Gawker Nick Denton The Wall Street Journal Rohit Sharma SanDisk Jason Calacanis Dickie Bush Sean McCabe Daily Content Machine Jordan Peterson Tribes Warren Buffet Sam Walton Ted Turner GothamChess LinkedIn Learning (formerly Lynda.com) Inc.com: Selling Your Company When You're Running on Fumes Chess.com Mark Cuban James Altucher Rod Drury Andrew Warner's Links Andrew Warner Stop Asking Questions Mixergy Episode Transcript[00:00:00] Andrew:The top 10 interviews of all time are news-based interviews. We, as podcasters, keep thinking, “How do I get enough in the can, so if I die tomorrow, there's enough interviews to last for a month, so I can be consistent, and the audience loves me.”That's great, but I think we should also be open to what's going on in the world today. Let's go talk to that person today. If there's an artist who's suddenly done something, we should go ask to do an interview with them.[00:00:32] Nathan:In this episode, I talk to my friend, Andrew Warner, who I've known for a long time. He actually played a really crucial role in the ConvertKit story in the early days, and provided some great encouragement along the way to help me continue the company, and get through some tough spots.We actually don't get into that in this episode, but it takes an interesting turn because we just dive right in.Andrew's got a book on interviewing. He runs Mixergy. He's been, running Mixergy for a long time. We talk about longevity and burnout, and a bunch of other things. He dives in and challenges me, and gives me feedback on my interviewing style. Where I should take the Podcast, and a bunch of other stuff. It's more of a casual conversation than the back-and-forth interview of how he grew his business. But I think you'll like it. It's a lot of what I'm going for on the show.So anyway, enjoy the episode.Andrew, welcome to the show.[00:01:25] Andrew:Thanks for having me on.[00:01:26] Nathan:There's all kinds of things we can talk about today, but I want to start with the new book that you got coming out.This is actually slightly intimidating; I am interviewing someone who has a book coming out about how to be good at interviewing. Where do we even go from here? You were saying that you have thoughts?[00:01:47] Andrew:I have feedback for you. I have a thoughts on your program.[00:01:51] Nathan:I'm now even more nervous.[00:01:52] Andrew:I've been listening, and I've been following, and I've been looking for questioning styles. Is there feedback I could give him? I mean, I've wrote a whole book on it. I should have tons of ideas on that.I don't. Here's the thing that stood out for me watching you. There's an ease and a comfort with these guests, but I'm trying to figure out what you're trying to do with the Podcast. What is connecting them? Are you trying to bring me, the listener, in and teach me how to become a better creator who's going to grow an audience and make a career out of it? Or are you trying to learn for yourself what to do?How to become closer to what Ali Abdaal doing, for example, or Sahil Bloom? Are you trying to do what they did, and grow your audience? Or is it a combination of the two?I think the lack of that focus makes me feel a little untethered, and I know that being untethered and going raw, and letting it go anywhere is fine, but I think it would be helpful if you gave me a mission.What's the mission that Nathan Barry's on with the Podcast. Why is he doing these interviews?[00:02:56] Nathan:Oh, that's interesting. Because it's probably different: my mission, versus the audience members' mission.[00:03:05] Andrew:I think you should have a boat together and, but go ahead.[00:03:08] Nathan:I was going to say mine is to meet interesting people. Like that's the thing I found that, podcasts are the pressure from two sides, one as a creator, as an individual online, like I'm not going to set aside the time to be like, you know what, I'm going to meet one interesting person a week and we're just going to have a conversation riff on something like that.Doesn't happen the times that, you know, the years that I didn't do this show, I didn't set aside like deliberate time to do that. And then the other thing is if I were to set aside that time and send out that email, I think a lot of people would be like, I kind of had to have a busy week. I don't know that I've, you know, like yeah, sure.Nathan, whoever you are. I did a Google search. You seem moderately interesting. I'm not sure that I want to get on that.Like a, get to know[00:03:58] Andrew:They wouldn't and it would be awkward. And you're right. The Podcast gives you an excuse. I think you should go higher level with it though. I think you should go deep to the point where you feel vulnerable. I think what you should do is say something like this, isn't it. You have to go into your own into your own mission and say, this is what it is.And just, so let me set the context for why this matters. I think it helps the audience know, but it also helps you get better guests to give better of themselves. I talk in the book about how I was interviewing Greg spirit, Dallas, the guy who created jib, jab, you know, those old viral video, it was a fire video factory that also created apps that allowed you to turn your yourself into like a viral meme that you could then send to your friends.Anyway, he didn't know me. He was incredibly successful. He was, I think, person of the year, a company of the year named by time. He was on the tonight show because he created these videos that had gone viral. And yes. He said yes, because a friend of a friend invited him, but I could see that he was just kind of slouching.He was wearing a baseball cap. It wasn't a good position. And then he said, why are we doing this? And I said, I want to do a story. That's so important. That tells the story of how you built your business. Yes. For my audience. So they see how new businesses are being built online, but let's make it so clear about what you did, that your great grandkids can listen to this.And then they will know how to great grandfather do this and put us in this situation. And that's what I wanted. I wanted for him to create that. And he told me that afterwards, if he had known that that was a mission, he wouldn't have put his hat on. He said that after that, he started thinking about the business in a more in depth way, visualizing his great grandchild.And then later on, he asked me for that recording so that he could have it in his family collection. So the reason I say that is I want us to have a mission. That's that important that yes. You could get somebody to sit in front of the camera because you're telling me you're doing a podcast, frankly.Right. You're with ConvertKit they're going to say yes, but how do you bring the best out of them? And that's it. And so that's why I'm doing this. And so one suggestion for you is to say something like.I'm Nathan, I've been a creator my whole life, but I'm starting from scratch right now with YouTube.I've got 435 people watching YouTube. It's not terrible, but it's clearly not where I want to end up. And so what I've decided to do is instead of saying, I've created the book authority, I wrote it. I'm the one who created software that all these creators are using a ConvertKit. Instead of, instead of allowing myself to have the comfort of all my past successes, I'm going to have the discomfort of saying, I don't know what it's like.And so I'm going to bring on all these people who, because maybe I've got credibility from ConvertKit are going to do interviews with me. And they're going to teach me like Alia doll and others are going to teach me how they became better creators, better business people. I'm going to use it to inform my, my, growth on YouTube.And by the way, You'll all get to follow along. And if you want to follow along and build along with me, this is going to come from an earnest place. Now I've obviously gone. Long-winded cause I'm kind of riffing here, but that's a mission. And now we're watching as you go from four to 500, now we care about your growth.Now there's someone giving you feedback and more importantly, there's someone who then can go back years later and see the breadcrumbs. Even if the whole thing fails and say, you know what?Nathan made it in virtual reality videos. And he's amazing. But look at what he did when YouTube was there. He clearly didn't do it, but he aspired right. I could aspire to, if I don't do it, I'll do it in the next level. That's that's what I'm going for with it. I talk too much sometimes and give people too much, too much feedback. How does that sit with you?[00:07:14] Nathan:I like the idea. I particularly love anytime a creator's going on a journey and inviting people along for it, right. When you're sitting there and giving advice or whatever else, it's just not that compelling to follow it unless there's a destination in mind. So I did that with ConvertKit in the early days of, I said, like I called it the web app challenge said, I'm trying to grow it from zero to 5,000 a month in recurring revenue.Within six months, I'm going to like live blog, the whole thing. people love that another example would be also in the SAS space, but, the company grew, they did a customer support software and they, I think. They were going from 25,000 a month to 500,000 a month was their goal. and they even have like, in their opt-in form, as they blogged and shared all the lessons, it had like a progress bar.You'd see, like MRR was at 40,000,[00:08:08] Andrew:Every time you read a blog post, you see the MRR and the reason that you don't remember what the number was is I believe that they changed it, you know, as they achieve the goal, they, they changed it to show the next goal on their list. And yeah, and you've got to follow along now. Why do I care? The groove, HQ or groove is, is growing a competitor to Zendesk and help scout.But now that I'm following along, I'm kind of invested now that I see how they're writing about their progress. I really do care. And by the way, what is this groove and why is it better than help scout and the others? Yeah. I agree with you. I think that makes a lot of sense. I think in conversations also, it makes a lot of sense.I think a lot of people will come to me and say, Andrew, can I just ask you for some feedback? I'm a student. Can I ask you for support? It's helpful for them to ask, but if they could ground me in the purpose, if you could say to somebody I'm coming to you with these questions, because this is where I'm trying to go, it changes the way that they react.It makes them also feel more on onboard with the mission. I have a sense that there is one, I'm just saying nail it, you know, who does it really good? who does a great job with it is a Jordan harbinger. He starts out his each episode is almost if you're a fan of his, it's almost like enough already. I get that.You're going to do an opt-in in the beginning of the Podcast. I get that. What you're trying to do is show us how to whatever network now and become better people. But it's fine. I'd much rather people say, I know too much about what this mission is. Then I don't.[00:09:26] Nathan:Do you who's afraid anyone else tuning in? What, what is Jordan's mission? What would he say is the mission that[00:09:32] Andrew:It's about, see, that's the other thing I can't actually, even though I've heard it a billion times, he's adjusted it. It's about, self-improvement making me a better person better, man. And so the earnestness of that makes me accept when he brings somebody on who's a little bit too academic who's, Jordan's interested in it or a little bit too practical to the point where it feels like I'm just getting too many tips on how to network and I don't need it, but I've got his sensibility.He's trying to make me a better person. And so I think with interviews, if you, if you give people the, the mission, they'll forgive more, they'll accommodate the largest and it does allow you to have a broader, a broader set of topics.[00:10:14] Nathan:Yeah. I'm thinking about the mission side of it. Like all of that resonates. and I love when an interview is questions are Like are the questions that they specifically want to know? It's not like I went through my list and this seems like a good question to ask instead. It's like, no, no, no, Andrew specifically, I want to know what should I do about, this?And I'll even call that out in a show and be like, look, I don't even care if there's an audience right now. Like this is my list, you know?[00:10:41] Andrew:Yes.[00:10:41] Nathan:But the, like if we dive into the mission, the one that you outlined doesn't quite resonate. And I think the reason. I think about, creators who have already made it in some way.And it starts to lose that earnestness. Like, honestly, I'm not that interested in, in growing a YouTube[00:11:00] Andrew:I don't think that that's I don't think that that's it for you. It's true. That's a little bit too. I don't know. It's it's a little, it's a little too early in the career. There is something there. I don't know what it is and it can't be enough. It can't be enough to say I need to meet interesting people because that's very youth centric and I'm not on a mission to watch you, unless you're really going to go for like the super right.And we're constantly aspiring, inspiring. the other thing it could be as you're running a company, you're trying to understand what's going on. No Kagan did that really well. I actually have the reason that I know this stuff is in order to write the book. I said, I have all my transcripts. I can study all the ways that I've questioned, but I also want to see what other people have done.And so Noah Kagan did this interview with an NPR producer. I had that transcribed to understand what he did and what he learned. One of the things that he did in that, that made that such a compelling interview is. He was a podcaster who wanted to improve his podcasting. And he, I think he even paid the producer to do an interview with him on his podcast so that he could learn from him.Right. And in the process, he's asking serious questions that he's really wondering. He's trying to figure out how to make a show more interesting for himself. Now. Clearly someone like me, who wants to make my Podcast more interesting. I'm like mentally scribbling notes as I'm running, listening to the podcasting.Oh yeah. The rule of three, like what are the three things you're going to show me?Well, yeah, at the end he did summarize it and he did edit. I don't like the edits at all because the edits take away some of the rawness of it and the discomfort which I personally enjoy, but I see now how he's editing it out.And it's, it's interesting to watch that progress.[00:12:32] Nathan:Yeah, I'm thinking through. The different angles that I could take with this. cause I like it and I feel like there's a, a thread that's not quite there. And I felt that on the show. Right. Cause people ask, oh, why are you having this guest on versus that guest? and it is that like, I, I find them interesting.There's also another angle of like probably half the guests maybe are on ConvertKit already. And so I want to highlight that. And then the other half of the guests aren't and I want them on ConvertKit and so that's an, you know, an incredibly easy, I can send you a cold email and be like, Andrew switched to ConvertKit.Right. Or I could be like, Hey, you know, have you on the show, we could talk. and we've gotten great people like in the music space and other areas from just having them on the show and then[00:13:18] Andrew:Can I give you, by the way, I know it's a sidetrack and I give you a great story of someone who did that. Okay. it's not someone that, you know, it's a guy who for years had helped me out. His name is Bob Highler every week he would get on a call with me and give me advice on how to improve the business.And then at one point he said, you know what? I need new clients. I want to start going after people who are, I want to start going after lawyers, helping them with their online ads, because lawyers aren't, aren't doing well enough.He started doing all these marketing campaigns because he's a marketer. And so one of the things he did was he got these cards printed up.He said, they look just like wedding invitations, beautiful. He, he mailed them out to lawyers. He got one, two responses. Like nobody would pay attention to a stranger, even if they were earnest and sending those out. And he goes, you know, and then he gets on a call. He doesn't even know what to say to people.If he just cold calling goes, I'm going to try to do that. And Andrew, I'm going to do an interview show for lawyers. He picked bankruptcy lawyers. He started asking them for interviews. They were all flattered because they also want another good Google hit. Right. And so they said yes to him and he asked them questions.Then I started learning the language. I forget all the different terms that he learned about how, about how they operate. But he said, inevitably at the end, they'll go after it was done. And say, by the way, what are you. And then he'd have a chance to tell them. And because he's built up this rapport and they trust him, they were much more likely to sign them.He signed up his customers, just like that, just like that. It's a, I think it's an, it's an unexplored way of doing it, of, of growing a business, taking an interest in someone, shining a light on them, helping them get that Google hit and helping them tell their story. And then by the way, will you pay attention to the fact that I've got a thing that if you like me, you might like also,[00:14:50] Nathan:So a few years ago, I was in New York and Seth Goden had come out to speak at our conference and he'd ever said, Hey, if you're in New York and want to make the pilgrimage up to Hastings on Hudson, you know, of outside the city, like come up and visit. And so I did that and it's so funny, cause it is like this pilgrimage to you, you like take the train up along the river. You know, I don't know what it is an hour and a half outside of the city. and I was asking Seth advice at his office, about like how to reach more authors. I think that was the question I asked him specifically and he just, he was like, well, what do authors want? And I was like, ah, I, some more books I guess.And he's like, yeah know. And so like we went through a series of questions, but he's basically what he came to was, find a way to get them attention so that they can grow their audience to sell more books. And he was suggesting a podcast is the way to do that. What's interesting is that's the side, like that's the other half of it, right.I want to meet interesting people. I want to, Like get more of those people that I find really interesting on ConvertKit pushed the limits of like, our customer base in, in those areas. And then the third thing is I want to do it in a way that's high leverage in my time. Write of, I want to do it.That creates something, for people watching and listening along so they can follow the journey. But I still don't see,I would say two thirds of that is about me, right?[00:16:18] Andrew:It's not only that, but all these things are byproducts more than they are the clear goal. You're going to get that. No matter what, if you just talk all day about what? No, not talk all day. If you do, what was it? I'm the founder of morning brew does nothing, but like a 15 minute, if that sometimes five minutes.[00:16:37] Nathan:Alex Lieberman.[00:16:38] Andrew:Yeah, just what, what goes on in his life now it's changed over the years or so that he's done it, but it's just, here's what we were thinking about today. Here's how I'm deciding to hire somebody BA done. He's just doing that. That's enough to get attention enough to also broaden his audience enough to bring us in and then so on.So I think if you just did nothing, but get on camera and talk for a bit, you'll get that. But I think a higher leverage thing is to tap into that personal mission and let all the others come through along the way and all the other benefits, meaning that you will get to meet people and change the way you think you will get to get people to switch to convert kit.And so on, by the way, that's such a, like an impressive thing for you to admit, to say, I want to have these guests on because I want to assign them up. I think a lot of people would have those ulterior motives and[00:17:23] Nathan:Oh, no, you got to just talk about, I mean, that's something you and I, for as long as we've known each other have been very, very transparent in both of our separate businesses and our conversations and it's just, everyone wants that. Right? Cause they're like, I think I know why Nathan is doing this, but he wants.And that would be weird, but if we go to the mission side of it, there's mission of like this, I'm going to improve the world side of mission, which definitely exists that can protect you. And I got my little plaque behind me. It says we exist to help creators are living. And so we can take that angle of it, thinking of like the, the goal journey side of things, since we're just riffing on ideas.One way that might be interesting is to make like a top 100 list of the top 100 creators we want on ConvertKit. And the whole podcast is about interviewing those people and reaching them. And, and so it could be like, this is what I'm trying to accomplish. And you're going to learn a whole bunch along the way as a listener, but you, you know, we check in on that.And then another angle that we could take that would be different is the, like we're going together. We're going to help the creator make the best version of their business. And so you make it more of a.We're both peers diving in on your business, riffing on it, you know, how would we improve it? that kind of thing.[00:18:43] Andrew:I think helping creators create a business, seems like something others have done, but not quite your approach, your style, the way that you will go and carve something is this is the thing that's over your head that says create. Is that something you carved in your wood shop? Then I saw on Instagram.Yeah, right. The sensibility of I've got to create it my way. Instead of that's a pain in the ass, I got a business to run who like, right. You're not going to see, for example, infusion soft, go, we need a plaque. Let's go to the wood shop. No, you're not. It's just not their sensibility. Right. Coming from a sensibility of someone who cares about the details, who every button matters in the software, everything behind your shoulder matters to you for yourself, even the stuff I imagine.If you look forward would have a meaning there, it wouldn't be random chaos. Is it random chaos in front of, on the[00:19:32] Nathan:The desk is random chaos, but there's a sign that says the future belongs to creators up there. And[00:19:38] Andrew:Okay. I think I might've even seen that online somewhere. So I think that coming, coming from the business point of view, With a sense of creator's taste, I think is something that would appeal to a lot of people. For whom seeing, for example, my take on business would be completely abhorring. All I care about is where the numbers are and what it's like.Right. Well, even allium doll's take on, it would not be, would not be right, because he's much more about every movement needs to matter. He can't just have a checkbox in notion it Ellis has to fire off five different other things that notion because otherwise you're wasting time. Why type five things when you could type one, right.It's a different sensibility. And I think you've always done really well drawing in that audience. I remember talking to a competitor of yours who started around the same time, also done really well about why you were, you were really growing tremendously faster. and they said he nailed it. He nailed who his audience is.It's the bloggers. It's these early creators who, who didn't have. Who didn't have anyone speaking for them. And you did that. And I think maybe that's an approach to saying, look, we are creators. And the business of creation is, or the business of being a creator is evolving and we want to learn about every part of it.And then it's interesting to hear how somebody growing their audience in an interesting way. How is somebody thinking about writing? I love that you asked Sahil bloom about how long it took him to write. I know he talks about it a bunch, but it's, it's interesting to hear him go with you about how it is like a five hour, seven hour writing job for him, right.To write fricking tweets. He's writing tweets, right? You've got people just firing off the tweet. He's spending five, seven hours on it. And, and he's also not a guy who's just like, right. It would be something if he was still in school playing baseball, and this is his intellectual, whatever. No, he's now running in investments.He's making decisions. He's helping promote his, his portfolio companies and he's spending five hours writing and he's doing it like one a week instead of one an hour. Right. It's all very interesting. And that approach, I think, ties completely well with ConvertKit.[00:21:41] Nathan:Okay. So where does that take us on like the mission or the hook for the show? Cause we're.[00:21:48] Andrew:Okay. Here's what I would do. I would, I would just keep riffing go. My name is Nathan Barry. You probably know me from convert kit. I'm doing this podcast because I like to meet interesting people. And here's the thing I'm trying to do or I'm I I'm doing it because I'm compelled to talk to these people who I admire.And I also want to learn from them about how they create and just riff on it. Like every week, even have every interview have a different one, until you feel like, oh, that's the one that feels just right. But if we just here, I want to have this person on, because I'm trying to learn this thing. I want to have this on because secretly I'm trying to see if I can get him to be at, see if I can get Ryan holiday to actually be on convert kit.Right. Boom. Now, now we're kind of following along as you're figuring it out. And that's also[00:22:29] Nathan:Yeah.[00:22:29] Andrew:The way, is Ryan holiday going to be on here or what?[00:22:31] Nathan:On the show,[00:22:33] Andrew:Yeah.[00:22:34] Nathan:Probably we were just talking the other day. We have a shared investment in a ghost town, So we, we often talk about that,[00:22:40] Andrew:Oh yeah. I've[00:22:42] Nathan:Other thing[00:22:43] Andrew:That ghost town. Oh, that's a whole other thing I've been watching that[00:22:45] Nathan:I need to have speaking of the ghost town, I didn't have Brent Underwood on because that Is an insane story of everything going on with town, but it's just been building this massive audience.[00:22:58] Andrew:Who's doing YouTube videos from there? He[00:23:00] Nathan:Yeah. And he's now got 1.2[00:23:01] Andrew:Yeah,[00:23:02] Nathan:Subscribers on YouTube, like 2 million on[00:23:04] Andrew:I had no idea. I watched him in the early days of the pandemic go into this place by himself. Almost get trapped, driving his car to get there. Right. I go, this is fun content. And usually when you watch someone like that and good morning, America go, and I'm going to jump out of this thing.And I've never jumped before, maybe whatever. I don't know.Yo, the producer's not going to let you die. It's fine. Here you go, dude. Who's just trying to get attention for this thing. Cause he has some investors who he wants to make sure get what they want. Yeah, you could die. What the hell is you doing?What? Like I'm going to, I'm going to go down this hole and see if there's anything over you yet. Dude, you could[00:23:41] Nathan:Yeah. It's, it's pretty wild. I actually, some of the weeks that he don't, he, that he didn't post the videos. I'd like, texted him, be like, Brett, you're still alive because you know, the video was the way that we knew every Friday, like, okay, Good Brent. Still alive, everything. Everything's good. Anyway, I got to have him[00:23:58] Andrew:All right. If you do talk to, if you talk to Ryan holiday, I feel like you totally nailed his writing style, where you, you said in one of your past episodes that he can take a whole historical story, sum it up in two sentences to help clarify the moment that he's writing about. And it's like a toss away thing, right? Just toss it away and then move on and go, dude. That's a whole freaking book. In fact, just turning the whole thing into just two sentences to fit in there would take silo, bloom five hours. You put it in a book with other, like there a bunch of other sentences. So that's good. But here's what I think you should talk to him about.Or here's my, my one suggestion. He has not talked about Marketing since he created, trust me. I'm a lot. Trust me. I'm lying, which was a phenomenal book that then I feel like he distanced himself from when he became more stoic and more intellectual. Fine. He is still a great, great marketer along your style, your tasty.And in fact, he's becoming the people who I can think of that are very, ConvertKit like philosophy in their creation plus promotion. He nails it, right? Art that takes so much pain that you've mentioned, and we've all seen it. He has boxes of index cards to create these sentences that most people would just throw away, not pay attention to, but are super meaningful.And at the same time, he knows how to promote. He knows how to get his ideas out there. He knows how to sell a coin that says you're going to die in Latin, that people put in their pockets that are more than just selling a coin. It's selling this transferable viral, real life thing. Right. So anyway. And is he should be on a ConvertKit too.[00:25:29] Nathan:He is, he is[00:25:30] Andrew:Okay. Good.[00:25:31] Nathan:Half of his list started in Berkeley. The other half are in the process of switching over. So, you know,[00:25:36] Andrew:Okay. Yeah, that's the hard part, dude. I I'm with infusion soft. I can't stand them. If you understand how much I do not like them. I do I ever talk negatively about anyone. No. Bring up politics, Joe Biden, Donald Trump. I got no strong opinion about anything you talked to me about, about infusions. Ah, but the problem is it's so hard to wean yourself off of these things because once you're in a system, that's it[00:25:56] Nathan:Well we'll make it happen. W w we'll figure out a way, but the new book landing page for it, I went on there and inspected element. It's definitely a ConvertKit for them. I was pretty happy about it.[00:26:06] Andrew:Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So truthfully it was, I said, I'm not going to school around here. It would have probably been easier for me to go with, with infusion soft because then we all we'd have to do with tag people who were interested. And then I could, I don't want that. I don't want that nonsense because it comes with overhead.That becomes an obstacle to me, communicating with my audience by, by overhead. I mean, they've got historic legacy. Requirement's that mean I can't do anything right. You I'm on my iPad. I could just go in and send a message out. Or actually I haven't sent a message out. Someone else has sent a message out.Our publisher sent a message then from damn, ah, damn gravity. But I, but if someone says there's a problem, I can go in and see it.[00:26:44] Nathan:Right.[00:26:44] Andrew:And make adjustments. The whole thing just fricking works. Right?[00:26:47] Nathan:So I want to talk about the book more. Let's talk[00:26:49] Andrew:Sure.[00:26:50] Nathan:And now I have you here.[00:26:52] Andrew:Ben needs, us to talk about the book. He's the publisher.[00:26:54] Nathan:We'll get to that, then don't worry. Ben, we've got it covered. so you were giving unsolicited feedback, which by the way is my favorite kind of feedback. Okay.So as you've been listening to the show, what are some other things that maybe you recommended the book, maybe like as you set people up for interview questions, any of that advice that you would give beyond?We started with the men.[00:27:15] Andrew:I'm going to suggest that people who listen to you do pay attention to this. One thing that they should, I I'm interrupting you in a roadway now there's some good interruption that I write about in the book and I can tell you how to do it. Right. And I also have to say that there's some new Yorker that's built in, even though I've left New York a long time ago, that I, I always interrupt when we need to get into the bottom line.Okay. Here's one thing that I think people should pay attention with you. You don't just ask questions. You will, at times interject your own story, your own, take your own experience. And I find that a lot of times people either do it in a heavy handed way. It's like, look at me, I'm equal to you. I deserve to be in this conversation too.And that doesn't just happen on Mike. It happens at dinner parties or it's more like I have to be reverential. So I'm asking questions and it's me asking about them. And one of the things that I learned over the years, Getting to know someone interviewing someone, whether it's like you and I are doing in our podcasts and shows or doing it, in a, in a dinner conversation, it's not asking questions.It's not about saying here's my next thing. Here's my next question. It's overwhelming and draining to do that. You do need to say, well, here's me. You do need to sometimes just guide the person to say, now tell me how you wrote the book. Now tell me how long it takes to, to write a tweet, right? Whatever it is, you need to sometimes direct the person.And so I call the book, stop asking questions because that counter intuitive piece of knowledge is something that took me a fricking interview coach to help me accept that. It's true, but it helps. And you do it really well. And here's why you do it. Well, you interject something personal. Somehow you do it succinctly.You don't get rambling off. Maybe you edit that.No, no, because the videos are there. Yeah. It's, it's not edited. It's just you saying here's, here's my experience with this. And then when you come back and you ask something. It informs the guest about where you are and what they could contribute to that. It lets them also feel like this is a dialogue instead of them being pounded with demands of, in the forms of question.[00:29:15] Nathan:Yeah. Yeah. I think that for anyone listening and thinking about starting a podcast, it's really like, what's the kind of thing that you want to listen to. And I like it where the host is like a character in the, in the Podcast, in the episode where they're contributing content and it's not just like, oh, if I listened to Andrew on these 10 shows, I'm just going to get Andrew.Like, I want it where it's like, no, I'm getting the blend between these two people. And the unique things that come from that intersection rather than, you know, I've heard this[00:29:46] Andrew:Yes.[00:29:47] Nathan:I've heard about it.[00:29:48] Andrew:I think also it took me a long time years of, so I started doing this in 2007, give or take a year and I think. No one needs to talk about, I don't need to talk about myself. They don't care about me. They care about, you know, Paul Graham, who I'm interviewing about how he found a Y Combinator, someone.And I would get tons of emails from people saying, tell us who you are. Tell us a little bit about yourself. And I would argue with them and say, no, but I understand now on the outside, when I listen, I don't know who you are. And it feels very awkward to hear it. It feels very much like, I don't know why, where you're coming from.And so I don't know why I should listen. It's kinda, it's it's counterintuitive.[00:30:29] Nathan:Yeah. I think it just comes with comfort over time. Like, I, I don't know this for sure. If I bet if I listen back to my first podcast episodes, the ones that I did in like 2015. I have a different style because I bet I'm less comfortable or more worried about like, make sure that I shut up quickly so that the guests can talk more because people came here for the guest and then over time you just get more comfortable.[00:30:53] Andrew:So you wrote authority and I remember you, I remember buying it and I remember you bundled it with a bunch of stuff, right. And oh, by the way, it's so cool. I was listening to it on a run and I heard you mention my name in the, in the book I go, this is great and I'm running. but I remember you did interviews there.I don't remember whether the style matches up to today or what, but you did interviews in it. Right.[00:31:15] Nathan:I did.[00:31:16] Andrew:And what you had there that I think is always important to have with all, all interviews is you had a sense of like, well, the sense of mission, I knew what you were going for, because you were trying to say, here is this book that I've written on this topic.I'm want to bring these people in to bring their, their take on it. We were all kind of working together. And I feel like, when I look at my earlier interviews, I listened to them. The Mike sucks so badly. I was too ponderous. Cause I wanted to be like, IRA glass from, from NPR, from this American life.And you could hear the same rhythm, the same cadence, like I'm copying him. Like I'm his little brother trying to learn how to be like a real boy. but I had this real need. I was trying to figure out how these people were building companies that work to understand what holes I had in my understanding to see what was working for them that I didn't know before.And you could see that and it, it helps. It helped me continue. Even when I was nervous with the guest, it helped the guests know where to go. Even when I wasn't doing good job, guiding them and help the audience keep listening in, even when the audio stopped, because there's this thing that Andrew is trying to understand.And you almost feel like you're the sense of vulnerability. If it doesn't scare you away, then it makes you want to root.[00:32:40] Nathan:Yeah. And I personally love that style because I want to follow someone going on a journey and, and trying to accomplish something specific. But let's talk about the not just the book, but asking questions or in this case, stopping it, stop asking questions. What are the things that not even just specific to this job, what are the things that you listened to interview shows?And you're like, okay, here are the three things that I want to change or that I want to coach you on in the same way that I was coached on.[00:33:10] Andrew:Okay. So what I started to do is I go through my own transcripts. I mean, I had years of transcripts to see what worked and what didn't I already done that. So I said, I need to now add to it. And so I went back and looked at historical interviews, like when Barbara Walters interviewed Richard Nixon and got him so frustrated that he didn't want to ever talk to her again.Or when Oprah finally got to sit with Lance Armstrong, how did she do that? I think. You know, you know, let me pause on, on Oprah and Lance Armstrong. She got to interview him after he, he was basically caught cheating and he was about to come out and do it. Great. Get, I think the fact that she interviewed him, there's a lesson there for, for all of us who are interviewing, interviewing the top 10 interviews, I think of all time.And you go back to Wikipedia and look it up. You see art or interview podcast or interview, sorry, our news-based interviews. We as podcasters, keep thinking, how do I get enough in the can so that if I die tomorrow, there's enough interviews to last for a month or whatever, so that I can be consistent in the audience loved me.That's great. But I think we should also be open to what's going on in the world today. Let's go talk to that person today. If there's an artist who suddenly done something, we should go and ask to do an interview with them. If there's a creator, if there's someone. So for me, one of the top interviews that people still it's been years, people still come back and talk to me about is when Matt Mullenweg decided that he was gonna pull out Chris[00:34:35] Nathan:Pearson.[00:34:35] Andrew:Per Pearson.Pearson's, themes from WordPress. And I got to talk to both of them at the same time and I published it and it went all over the internet with all over the WordPress internet. So hundreds of different blog posts about it, eventually all the people in the WordPress world write a lot of blogs, but also it became news.And so we don't do enough of that.[00:34:57] Nathan:I remember that interview because I was in the WordPress community at that time. And I remember you saying like, wait, I'm in Skype and I have both of you in two different things and you pull it together and not to pull Ryan holiday into this too much, but that's where he ended up writing the book.Was it, he realized he was one of the only people who was talking to like both Peter teal and, who's the Gawker guy.Yeah. Anyway, people know, but, but being in the intersection of that, so you're saying find something that's relevant on the news[00:35:33] Andrew:Yeah. Nick Denton was the founder of Gawker. Yes. Find the things that are relevant right now. And when people are hot right now, and they know you and you have credibility in this space, they trust you more than they trust. Say the wall street journal, even right, where they don't know where's this going.I think that's, that's one thing. The other thing is I think we don't have enough of a story within interviews. If we're doing S if we're doing at Mixergy, my podcast and interview where we're telling someone's story, we want them to be somewhere where the audience is at the beginning and then to have done something or had something happen to them that sets them on their own little journey.And then we make this whole interview into this. Into this a hero's journey approach. So I think better when I have an actual company in mind, so, or a person in mind. So last week I was interviewing this guy, Rohit Rowan was a person who was working at SanDisk, had everything going right for him. His boss comes to him and says it, you're now a director, continue your work.But now more responsibilities he's elated. He goes back, home, comes back into the office. Things are good, does work. And then a couple of days later he's told, you know, we mean temporarily, right? And he goes, what do you mean? I thought I got, I got a promotion. No, this is temporary. While our director's out you're director of this department.And then you go back, he says, the very next day, he couldn't go back into the office. He sat in his car, just, he couldn't do it anymore. And so he decided at that point, he'd heard enough about entrepreneurship heard enough ideas. He had to go off on and do it himself. And so we did. And then through the successes and failures, we now have a story about someone who's doing something that we can relate to, that we aspire to be more.[00:37:13] Nathan:So, how do you, you, your researchers, how do you find that moment before you have someone on? Because so many people will be like, yes, let me tell you about my business today. And oh, you want to know about that? How'd, you know, you know, like, as you,[00:37:27] Andrew:Yeah,[00:37:28] Nathan:That hook in that moment? That actually is a catalyst in their own dream.[00:37:33] Andrew:It's tough. It's it takes hours of talking to the guest of, of looking online of hunting for that moment. And it takes a lot of acceptance when it doesn't happen. One of my interview coaches said, Andrew, be careful of not looking for the Batman moment. And I said, what do you mean? He goes, you're always looking for the one moment that changed everything in people's lives.Like when Batman's parents got shot. And from there, he went from being a regular boy to being a superhero. Who's going to cry, fight crime everywhere. His life doesn't really work that way. There aren't these one moments, usually the change, everything. So I try not to. Put too much pressure on any one moment, but there are these little moments that indicate a bigger thing that happened to us.And I look for those and I allow people to tell that without having it be the one and only thing that happened. So if Pharaoh, it, it wasn't that moment. It could've just been, you know what, every day I go into the office and things are boring. And I think I have to stop. What I look for is give me an example of a boring.Now he can tell me about a day, a day, where he's sitting at his desk and all he's doing is looking at his watch, looking at his watch and he has to take his watch, put it in his drawer so that he doesn't get too distracted by looking at his watch all day. Cause he hates it. Now was that the one moment that changed everything?It was one of many moments. It might've happened a year before he quit, but it's an indication. So when we're telling stories, we don't have to shove too much pressure into one moment, but I do think it helps to find that one moment that encapsulates their, why, why did they go on this journey? Why does someone who's in SanDisk decide he's going to be an entrepreneur?Why did someone who was a baseball player decide that he had to go and write a blog post? Why is it? What's the thing that then sends them off on this journey? It helps. And I would even say, if you can get that moment, it just helps to get the thing that they were doing before that we can relate to. So what's the thing that they did before.So anyway, we have two different types of interviews. One is the story-based interview where we tell a story of how someone achieved something great. And so that hero's journey is and approach. The other one is someone just wants to teach them. All you want to do is just pound into them for an hour. Give me another tip another tip another tip of how to do this.Like pound, pound, pound, pound pound. If you want the audience to listen. I think for there, it helps to have what I call the cult hook because I said, how do I, how do cults get people to listen to, to these people who are clearly whack jobs sometimes. And so studying one called I saw that what they did was they'd have a person up on stage who talked about how, you know, I used to really be a Boozer.If you came into my house, you would see that there'd be these empty six packs. I was so proud of leaving the empty six packs everywhere to show myself how much alcohol I can drink. My wife left me. And when she left me, she just told me that I hadn't amounted to anything in my life. And I was going nowhere.And I just said, get I here. Instead of appreciating that this was just like terrible. And I ran out of toilet paper and don't even get me started with what, what I did for that. And so you see someone who's worry worse off than you are on this path of life. And then something has. They discover whoever it is.That's the cult leader. And they say, now I've got this real estate firm I encouraged by, oh, by the way, all of you to come over and take a look at that at this, I couldn't believe it. My whole life. I wanted to buy a Tesla. I now have the Tesla S it's amazing. It's just so great. And I did it all because I changed the way I thought once I came in and I found this one book and the book told me, I mean, anyways, so what we try to do is we say, if you're going to have somebody come on to teach how they became a better blogger, let's not have them start over elevated where everything they do is so great that we can't relate, have them start off either relatable or worse.I couldn't write here's my grammar, mistakes. My teacher told. Right. And now what's the thing that they did. They pick them from where they were to where they are today. it's this real set of realizations. Now I want to go into that.Let's pound into them and see how many of those tips we can get. Let's learn that I want to go from where he was to where he is.[00:41:28] Nathan:Yeah, I liked that a lot. Cause my inclination would be like, okay, we're we're doing the, educational, tactical conversation. I'm going to facilitate it. Let's dive right in and let's get to the actionable stuff right away. So I like what you're saying of like, no, no, no. We need to, even though this is going to be 90% packed, full of actionable material, we need to dive in and set the stage first with the story and making it relatable.And I like it.[00:41:55] Andrew:Yeah,[00:41:55] Nathan:Oh, yeah. I was just, just in my own head for a second. Cause I say, ah, that makes sense a lot, so much so that I've had three different guests or listeners email me and say like, just don't say that makes sense as much would, now that I'm saying it on the show, I'll probably get more emails every time that I say it.Cause that's like my processing, like, oh, oh, that makes sense. As I'm thinking of the next question and all that, so[00:42:22] Andrew:I do something like that too. For me. It's IC,[00:42:25] Nathan:Everyone has to have something.[00:42:26] Andrew:I can't get rid of that and yeah.[00:42:28] Nathan:So what systems have you put in place on the research side so that you're getting this, are you doing pre-interviews forever? Yes. Are you having your[00:42:38] Andrew:Almost every single one, some of the best people in some of the best entrepreneurs on the planet, I'm surprised that they will spend an hour or do a pre-interview. And sometimes I'm too sheepish to say, I need an hour of your time and I need you to do a pre-interview. So instead of saying, I need you to do a pre-interview.I say, here's why people have done it. And I've paid for somebody to help make my guests better storytellers of their own stories. And truthfully people will go through that. Pre-interview even if they don't want to do an interview, they just need to get better at telling their story for their teams, their employees, their everyone.Right. and so I say that, and then they will take me up on the pre-interview and say, yes, I do want to do the pre-interview. and so what I try to do is I try to outline the story. Ahead of time in a set of questions. And then what we do is we scramble them up a little bit based on what we think people will tell us first and what will make them feel a little more comfortable.And then throughout the interview, I'll adjust it. So for example, no, one's going to care about the guest unless they have a challenge. No guest wants to come on and say, I'm going to tell you about what's what I really suck at or where I've really been challenged. If they do, they're going to give you a fake made up thing that they've told a million times to make themselves seem humble.So we don't ask that in the beginning. We don't even ask it in the middle. We save it till the very end. Now they've gotten some time with us. They've gotten some rapport, they trust us. Then we go into tell me about the challenges, what hasn't worked out for you. And we really let them know why tell people the higher purpose you want the audience to relate.You want them to believe you. You want them to see themselves in you, and to learn from you. We need. They tell us, and then I have it in my notes as the last section, but I use it throughout the interview. I sprinkle it. So the goal is to get the pieces that we want and in whatever order makes the most sense and then reshape it for the interview Day.[00:44:33] Nathan:So on the interview itself, you would, you would flip that and you know, okay, this is what I want to start with and, and dive in right[00:44:41] Andrew:Yup. Yup.[00:44:43] Nathan:Lose. They already told you about that. And so now, you[00:44:46] Andrew:Right,[00:44:46] Nathan:In and start with.[00:44:47] Andrew:Right. That helps. Now, if there's something I want to ask someone about that they're not comfortable with. One thing that I do is I, I tip them off. So Jason Calacanis invited me to go do, interviews with, with investors at one of his conferences. It was just a bunch of, investors. And I looked at this one guy, Jonathan tryst, and he looked really great.But he, what am I supposed to do? Ask him about what startups should do to run their businesses. He's never run a startup. His, he hadn't at that time had a successful exit. As far as I knew, like mega successful exit. He's just a really nice guy. You can tell he was going places, but that's it. And the money that he was investing came from his parents.So what is this rich parents giving their kids some money. Now he's going to tell everyone in the VC, in the startup and VC audience, how to live their lives. So I said, I'm either not going to address it, which I think most people are, or I have to find a way to address it where I'm not going to piss them off and have them just clam up on me and then go to Jason and go.This guy just is a terrible interviewer, which is not true. So what I decided to do was tip him off. I said, look, Jonathan, before we do this, before we start talking to the audience, I have to tell you, I saw it, that you don't have much of a track record as an investor. Your money came from your parents and you're not like a tech startup, like people here.If we don't talk about it, people who know it are going to think, oh, this guy, Jonathan, look, who's trying to pass him soft self off. I don't have to force it in here, but if you allow me to, I'd like to bring it up and let's talk about, and it goes, yeah, absolutely. If it's out there, I want to make sure that we address it and sure enough, we talked about it and he had a great answer.He said, no, this came from my parents. It's not my own money. I don't have as much experience as other people, but I took my parents' money. I invested it, fat parents and family and so on. We've had a good track record with it. And now have raised the second Fallon fund from outsiders who saw what I was able to do with the first one.And by the way, I may not have this mega exit as a startup investor, as a startup entrepreneur. But I did have this company that did okay. Not great. Here's what it did Here's what I learned And that's all informing me. And that's where I come from now. You've got someone talking about the, the, the thing that matters without pissing them off so much that they don't say anything else.And you feel like you feel superior as an interviewer. I got them. But in reality, you got nothing[00:46:57] Nathan:Right.[00:46:57] Andrew:Cares.[00:46:58] Nathan:I think that's a really hard line of talking about the things that are difficult and like the actual, maybe things that someone did wrong or lessons that they learned without just like barely dipping into it for a second. And I liked the format of tipping them off in like full transparency.So on this show, I had someone on who I really, really respect his name's Dickie Bush. He's one of the earlier episodes in this series and in it, he, okay. Yeah. So in that interview, one thing that I knew is that his, the first version of his course plagiarized text from another friend, Sean McCabe, actually Shaun's company edits is Podcast and all that.And I've known both of them for, for quite a while. I've known Sean for like, I dunno, six, seven years or something. And I was like, struggling with how to bring that up. And I wanted from the like founder, transparent journey, that sort of thing I wanted it brought up because I, I actually like, I'm happy to talk about like some pretty major things that I've screwed up and what I've learned from it.And I just think it makes a better conversation. And then from the interview side, I don't feel good, like doing an interview and not touching on that, but I didn't tip Dickey off to it. And I, that was one of the things that I've regretted that he gave a great answer. He talked about the lessons that he learned from it.It was really, really good, but I felt bad that I didn't set him up for the most success in like in setting up. And part of that, part of it is because even at the start of the interview, I was still wrestling with now, I'm not going to bring that up that, ah, maybe I should, it wouldn't be an authentic interview if I didn't like wrestling with that, I hadn't figured out my own, like made my own decision until we were in the middle of it.And so I didn't, I didn't set anybody up for success. And so it's an interesting line.[00:48:52] Andrew:It happens. And it seems like I'm now in the point of your transcript, where you, where you ask him, it's a 31 minutes into the interview. I think his response is great. He came in and he took responsibility for it. He says, yeah, that, that, that was a dramatic mistake, or a drastic mistake on my side and caught up in it.He wasn't the most articulate here and he'd repeated words. Like I, I, a couple of times, so I could see that he probably was uncomfortable with it. but I think his answer was great. I think, I believe that we all are broadcasting out, whether we know it or not, our intentions and where we're coming from, as some people are really good at faking it.And so I'm not going to talk about the outliers and some people are so uncomfortable that they're messing up the transmission, but for the most part almost. broadcasting our intentions. If you walk into that, Nathan, with the, I got to get him because he, he got one of my friends and I need him to finally get his comeuppance.He's going to pick up on that. And truthfully, it's such a small thing for a person like you who's, who's already a likable person. You have a lot to offer people, right? As far as like promotion and everything else, it will be forgiven, but it'll be picked up on, it's also something that people could pick up on, which is Nathan really want to know this thing.It's been bothering him for a while. And if you could, just, before you asked the question, say, where am I coming from with this? And know that the audience will mostly pick up on it. And obviously people are gonna like read in whatever they feel like, but trust that the vast majority of us understand, I think it'll work[00:50:21] Nathan:Yeah,[00:50:22] Andrew:You don't have to even tip. You don't have to tip off, but it does help. It, it definitely helps.[00:50:26] Nathan:It's interesting. I was watching an interview with, Jordan Peterson who wrote 12 rules for life. He's like a very controversial figure. And I was just often these controversies pass by, on Twitter and other places. And I realized like, oh, I don't understand them. And rather than jumping on one side or the other, at least try to like dive in a little bit and understand it.So watching this interview, and I can't remember, I think it was some major Canadian TV show or something, and that you would tell the interview was just trying to nail him it every possible chance, like whatever he said, just like dive in. And, so I think you're right, that you see the intention, like in that case, you would see the, the interview, his intention was specifically to try to trip him up in his words.And then in other cases where it's like, This is something that, you know, if you take the other approach, this is something that's been bothering me, or I want to talk about it. Like I genuinely want, you know, to ask or learn from this. It's a very different thing.[00:51:20] Andrew:I think people pick up on it. I remember you, you mentioned Seth Godin. I remember interviewing him when he wrote the book tribes back before people had online communities. And I didn't just say, okay. All our heroes, all the best entrepreneurs just run their businesses. Then don't run a tribe. I brought out books.I said, here's a book about Warren buffet. Here's the book by Sam Walton. The Walmart here's a book by Ted Turner became a multi-billionaire to creating all these, these media empires didn't have communities. They don't have tribes. And now you're telling me that in addition to my job, I also have to go and build out a tribe.It feels like, you know, an extra job. That just seems right for the social first. This just sounds right on social media and you could actually see. He's watching me as I'm saying it, and he's smiling, he's watching it because he's trying to read me, is this like what I get wrapped up? Is this going to be some kind of thing where some guy's going to try to be in the next Gawker media?Or is, is this a safe place? We're all doing that constantly. And then he also saw, okay, this is someone who really wants to understand this. And he's challenging me. I like a challenge. And you could see him smile with like, this is what I'm here for. And so I think when you come at it from a good point of view, people can see it and then you can go there and you can go there and you can go there and it will be shocking to you and them and the audience, how far you go. But when you're coming from that genuine place, they get, they get it.They want it.[00:52:44] Nathan:Yeah, that's good.I want to talk about longevity in like the online world. I think that so many people that I started following in say 2007, 2008, nine, and then I didn't start creating myself until 2011. most of them aren't around anymore. Like a lot of the big blogs, Yeah, just so many that I can think of.They're not around anymore. They're not doing this. You're at a point where like you started messaging in some form in what? 20, sorry, 2004 to somewhere in there and then interviews.[00:53:17] Andrew:Yeah, I keep saying 16. It's like, yeah. 2004 is when I started the interview started 2007 ish somewhere there. Give or take a year. yeah, long. I, I will say that there are parts of my work that I am burned out on right now. This year has been that, but I'm not on the interview. And the reason I'm not is because I do enjoy conversations.I hated them for a long time in my life because I just didn't know how to have them, how to have it make sense. I also didn't give myself permission to take the conversation where I wanted it to go. And it helps now to say, I can talk to anyone about anything. That's an opportunity that, that feels fun because I know how to do it.It's an opportunity to, it feels like, like, you know how everyone's so happy. You can go to YouTube and you could get the answer to anything. Well, I could go to anybody and I could get the answer to anything and talk about how they didn't have a customized to me, YouTube, not customized thing to me, I'm watching Gotham chess on YouTube.He's teaching me how to play chess, but he will not customize to the fact that every time I get into a car con defense, all the pieces like bunched over to my side. But if he and I did an interview, or if I do an interview with an tomorrow's entrepreneur, it's going to be about, here's the thing I'm trying to deal with.How did you get past that? Talk to me about what you're up to there.[00:54:31] Nathan:Yeah, that's definitely energizing. Okay. But what are the things that you're burnt out on? Because I think a lot of people are seeing that burnout. And so I guess first, what are you burned out on? And then second, we can go from there into like, what are you changing and how are you managing.[00:54:46] Andrew:I'm burned out on parts of the business behind, behind Mixergy I'm burned out on. I was aspiring to like unbelievable greatness with the, with the course part of it, with the courses, it didn't get there and I'm tired of trying to make it into this thing. That's going to be super big. I'm tired of that.[00:55:10] Nathan:His greatness there, like linda.com? Like what, what was that?[00:55:15] Andrew:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. Yeah. She was one of my first interviewees and, and so yeah, I saw the model there and I am frustrated that I didn't get to that and I, I don't have a beat myself up type a perso

Kimberly Brooks is a contemporary American artist and author. Kimberly integrates landscape, figuration and abstraction to address subjects of history, memory and identity. Her work has been exhibited and featured internationality.Kimberly received her bachelor's degree in literature from U.C. Berkeley, and was Valedictorian. She has taught art as a lecturer and adjunct faculty instructor, and was a featured speaker at TEDx Fullerton.In this episode, I talk with Kimberly about her work as an artist, author, and editor. We talk about how she uses ConvertKit to reach and grow her audience. We talk about what people can learn from fine art, and apply it to their newsletters. We also cover the path to becoming a successful creator, and much more.In this episode, you'll learn: The secret to achieving your breakthrough moment A job most creators should charge for, but rarely do What you should be doing instead of blogging Should you be posting on Instagram? Links & Resources Huffington Post ConvertKit Craft and Commerce Steve Jobs John Baldessari Adobe Photoshop Adobe Leonard Shlain Milton Glaser Macworld Walt Disney's Imagineering Warner Music Group Seth Godin Leonardo da Vinci Arianna Huffington Huffington Post: Fine Art Later Anderson Ranch Arts Center Otis College of Art and Design Kimberly Brooks's Links Find Kimberly on Instagram Kimberly's website Kimberly's Ted Talk Huffington Post article, “The Gap Logo, New Coke and the Legendary Walter Landor” Kimberly's book, The New Oil Painting Episode Transcript[00:00:00] Kimberly:The fundamental way to learn is, you imitate, assimilate, and then you can improvise with anything. You're going to be thwarted in the beginning many times, and you can't give up. You have to say, “Okay, well, I don't care if it sucks. I don't care if I'm going to fail. If I'm gonna fail, I'm gonna fail big. Let's just go on.”[00:00:29] Nathan:In this episode I talk to Kimberly Brooks. She is a fine artist. So, painting, she has all of her art in galleries, that whole world, which is super fascinating to me. She also plays in the creative world. Newsletters, podcasts, and interviews.She built the whole art editorial section of the Huffington Post. She built that to millions of readers. She's done all kinds of things in the design community from the early days. So, we riff on that; Mad Men-style ad agencies in the ‘80s and ‘90s. Some great stuff.Then she brings it all the way through to talking about what she does with ConvertKit. How she sets up her sequences, and everything else, and things that people can learn from fine art, and apply to their email newsletters and sequences.So, it's a fun episode. We have to do a part two, because we filled up all the time we had, and I think I only got through half my questions.So, anyway, I'm going to get out of the way and dive in. So, here we go.Kimberly, welcome to the show.[00:01:37] Kimberly:Thank you for having me, Nathan.[00:01:39] Nathan:There's so many things I to talk about, because you come to the creator world from a different perspective than I do, though we both share a love for Photoshop.[00:01:50] Kimberly:Oh, yeah.[00:01:51] Nathan:We'll start with where we met. It was at Craft and Commerce, some number of years ago.I can't even think. Three years ago? Four?[00:02:01] Kimberly:I think it was three years ago, and it was such a random whim. I don't even know how I ended up finding it. I fell in rabbit hole. And then I came upon ConvertKit.I was actively looking for a better way to send art show announcements. Because I'm a painter, I'm an artist.I just felt after my previous experiences, I knew how important having a subscriber-based service was. I don't want to get too nerdy, but I didn't really like the competitor who shall remain unnamed. But, I found you guys, and I started getting the advertisement for the conference, and it was in Boise, Idaho.And so I thought, I'll just go. It was like a Ted conference for really creative nerdy people like me, but it was exactly what I was wanting. It was about marketing, which is really such a weird word because it's really about sharing, and I loved the title.I loved everything about it. I met some of the people that I'm really, really close with now. Then the next year it was canceled because of the pandemic, but it was amazing, and I met you, actually.[00:03:28] Nathan:And, and we had a really fun conversation. one thing that I want to talk about, for you is the intersection between fine art, right. And painting and that world. And then now you're also in this world of being a writer and a creator in the sense, right. You you've been a writer and creative for a long time, but, but it's, it's like a different world of the selling things to your audience.And. Earning money directly in that way. And so I want, like, I want to hear that as you like weave in and out of these two worlds and then just your experience there.[00:04:02] Kimberly:Yeah, it's interesting. I, when I was in elementary school, we had a really competitive game of tetherball constantly going on on the playground. And it was just sort of that pole with a ball attached to a rope we would, people would line up and we would get it, and it was, see how many times, and it was just sort of like, it was very intense and I always felt like being an artist.Being an art to me was it was the pole, you know? So like my pole is art is making art and everything about what I do. I write about it. I interview people about it. I interview other artists about their work. I make paintings 90% of the time in my studio. Like, it's all about art, you know? So that's like the beginning.So I do see myself sashaying between different worlds. And I think everybody kind of does that. And then as the bicycle of technology was being built to use kind of like a vague reference to like Steve jobs is, you know, what happens if you put a man on a bicycle and you know, like how fast can he, as the bicycle was kind of entering our world, I thought, what if you kind of mixed art with the bicycle?You know, what, what happens if you, you know, Make an artist's website. So I was like one of the first people I knew that made an artist's website. And I remember, it was, I had, was having lunch with my mentor. Who's, the late John Baldessari. He was a great, great, great artist. And, he's famous for, you know, he burned all this stuff and graduate school and then became a conceptual painter, you know, very, you know, Howard work in, you know, conceptual anyway.So I brought my laptop to this Mexican restaurant in Venice, and I said, I wanted to show you something. I made a website and our studios were really near each other. And he said, Oh, I, I don't know if I would do that. If I were you, I was like, why not? He said, because you're, you'll piss off the dealers, the galleries, the galleries, you shouldn't be selling directly.It's going to take away from what their job is. You know, when you hang a show and you have art in the gallery, the gallery is selling the artist and it's their job, you know, and artists are supposed to be kind of this, you know, semi mute, black turtleneck wearing, you know, mysterious, mystical ShawMan goddess.I call it goddess on the hill. Like you're not supposed to really get in the way of what your artists about. And so I thought, oh gosh, you know, this is, and I had put the paintings for a show was about to have. And so I started making, so my postcard for that show had the name of the show and it had the name of the website, cause no galleries had website.Then this is in like the two thousands, you know, this is a long time ago. And I remember meeting people when I handed them a postcard. If like I felt comfortable with them, I would like secretly write a password so that they could see the website,[00:07:20] Nathan:Oh was you were, you had the website, but it was[00:07:24] Kimberly:Yeah. So I password protected it. I password protected it because John Baldessari told me that it's probably not a good idea to have a website.This is again, no artists ad website.[00:07:35] Nathan:How did the galleries and the community[00:07:37] Kimberly:The galleries didn't have websites either. And the galleries, I remember. They started it. Like some of them had websites, but it was super janky. It was like sometimes most of the time they did an, and it was just sort of this mysterious world that 99.9, nine, 9% of the public didn't understand.Doesn't understand it's better now. And you'd have to be walking down the street or you'd have to know somebody who knows somebody, you know, it's, it was just a different world then.[00:08:08] Nathan:But did any of those negative things come about? Like, did anyone look down on you on it for having a website and for[00:08:14] Kimberly:No, no, no. Eventually I just said, screw it. And I took the password off.And, interestingly, I don't want to date myself, but I think I already have, but the at the time flash was very. sexy. And it was like, and so artists would have, if they did have website, firstly, they would be horribly designed and they would have like a flash animation of a curtain opening and a door.And it was very like CD rom mentality. Like, you know, it was pre-internet thinking, you know, anyway, like I said, the big nerd here.[00:08:48] Nathan:Flash was big until 2000, like the iPhone 2007.[00:08:52] Kimberly:Until Steve jobs killed it, just took a knife. He took a sword and he just, during a keynote, just, you know,[00:09:01] Nathan:Yeah. Oh, and the two biggest reasons were, that the bandwidth of the phones couldn't handle it. And then also the battery life on the phones couldn't handle it.[00:09:10] Kimberly:Wasn't there another reason there was another technical reason that had to do with plays well with others. I can't remember exactly what it was,[00:09:20] Nathan:Yeah. I mean, it was a restricted technology. Like it was owned Macromedia. And so probably that apple was trying to do to get to play. And Adobe was playing hardball and apple was probably like, okay,[00:09:31] Kimberly:Yeah,[00:09:32] Nathan:You know, we'll play this[00:09:33] Kimberly:Yeah. It was, was, it was, it was just the evolution of, you know, of Photoshop and Adobe products. And so I grew up with Adobe. I learned I was an early adopter, always, you know, I just sort of like analogy. Yeah.[00:09:49] Nathan:I want to dive into all kinds of things. I want to talk about, more in the financial world and the business of that and everything else. But back and maybe start earlier in your career.[00:10:01] Kimberly:Than elementary school.[00:10:04] Nathan:I guess we didn't go to elementary school a little bit after elementary school. What what did the early days of your career look like[00:10:12] Kimberly:I was a, you know, I'm a first, or I guess I'm a second generation American, so, and I'm Jewish. So of course I was supposed to be a doctor. So my, we used to get, you can be anything you want just as long as you're a surgeon first. So I got the makings of a woman's surgeon and, you know, it was just like, as a book that was a book that I received many times in my middle school years.And then, you know, it was like, that's great, you're so talented. But you know, you really, you know, after you get out of medical school, you can, it was just sort of what you did in my family. And, and my father he was a well-known surgeon and he became an, I don't want to say artist. He became a writer, so he's a well-known writer.And he started writing. So he kind of became an artist before my eyes, you know, so as I was getting out, as I was graduating college, he published his first bestselling. That was just, and I would like sit at the book, you know, when he gave a lecture at an art gallery, because it was called art and physics.His name is Leonard Shlain so I would like sell, watch him, sell the books, you know, like give a lecture and then I would check out and I would get, take people's cash and then give them a book, you know, at the end of the lecture. And he used to tell me, he used to say, honey, you have to be shameless.You have to be willing to just talk in front of four people. It doesn't matter. You just need to do it. If it's just, it was just a big, it did. It made an imprint on me because I was watching him grow out of his own discomfort zone, which I still struggle with of talking to people like instead of through your paintings or, you know, talking to an audience saying being on video, it took me six months to figure out how to be on video, but I'm getting ahead of it.So you asked me like my CR about my career. So I was an English major. I went to an English, major architecture, minor at UC Berkeley. And at the time that I was graduating, painting was considered dead. And I know that that for artists today, they don't quite appreciate that. But after abstract expressionism, there was sort of this mood in the art world that everything had been done and like, forget about figuration was the last thing people wanted to see, you know, and I wanted to paint people.So I just figured, okay, I'm going to just do that on my own, but I'm going to, I love reading. I love writing. So I became an English major and I was valedictorian of, of the UC Berkeley English department. And so my first job, I wanted to combine my love for art and literature. So my first job was.Design. So my, so I, was mentored by a gentleman named Walter Lander, who is the founder of landlord associates. And he was sort of the west coast, Milton Glaser, Milton Glaser from a design point of view, like he was, he just recently passed in the last five or so years, but he like did the, I love New York, you know, like he's this famous, famous graphic designer because the field of graphic design is, is relatively new.It's relatively, it's like a century old, you know, like th the serious field of it. And Walter was a pioneer in it. And he did, you know, my first job was like working cause I, cause I minored in architecture was, helping design the shell oil, gas station, you know,So I was doing like architecture design, and then he asked me to write speeches.And so they had, their company was kind of designed like a brain. So they had like a language division and they had like the design division, like they did the loose soon milk and they were so famous then such leaders. They had 1800 people in offices all over the world and it was like a big deal. And they had an office on a ferry boat.So that was my first job out of college. I was a speech writer for Walter and I was in the, I was in the word department. Like I think I designed, I helped name, a cigarette, you know, like was just a weird, but it was fascinating, you know? And it was meeting fascinating people. The grateful dead would like come over on the boat after it was, it was, it was a wild time at, in San Francisco in the late eighties, early nineties.Totally wild. So, So I was like, so all the designers are starting to learn Photoshop. So there was this thing called Photoshop because they were doing everything by hand, you know? And then I was like, oh, so I got Photoshop 1.0, you know, and then I had th there was no layers. So you had to do everything in alpha channels.And it's interesting just to be a big nerd. Cause you're a designer too, right? I mean that's yeah. Yeah. So if you can try to imagine there was Photoshop without layers, it meant that you had to do everything inside the masking tool that's built in that nobody really uses or knows about now called alpha channels.So I had to create everything using masks, but it was very oddly more similar to what you did with your Exacto knife and ruler, know, I still think one of the biggest, the saddest things about Photoshop. I mean, I think everybody should know it, but it has some feature bloat, but I think it kind of buries the power of alpha channels.And I think that if people knew how to use it, it would like, it's like a little thing to know that would hugely leap them out of the more artificial aspects of doing those filters on things.[00:16:00] Nathan:Right.[00:16:01] Kimberly:Anyway, like I you have to be careful with me because I can go into real. I can crawl real deep into these nerdy things.But anyway,[00:16:08] Nathan:Are there other things from those early days of, of the graphic design art agency, like that kind of world, that you still take with you today[00:16:19] Kimberly:Thousands of Gillian percent. One of them is the four DS that every project is discover, design develop, deploy. And I know I lost that. I also saw that, like, if you could name it, you could charge it.[00:16:32] Nathan:Is there a story behind that? If you could name it, you could charge for it.[00:16:35] Kimberly:You know, you'd see these hundreds of thousands of million dollar contracts going out to these major people. And I used to have to help write the proposals and I would see how they would divide they'd phase out, like a lot of designers. Again, I don't, I hope we're so not too off topic, but a lot of designers will not charge for discovery.You know what I mean? Because they haven't named it. They didn't name it They'd Just be like, oh, let me Research all about your company. And then you're going to pay me to give you some designs, and then I'll give you the designs and then hopefully they're smarter. Anyway, like I said, big, big topic.[00:17:10] Nathan:Yeah. But think there are a lot of people listening who are in the either freelance or agency space and they, provide services to newsletters or creators or they're growing their own on the side. And I think it's a really important point that, if you're if you're structuring your proposals and all your interactions with clients around the deliverable, then you're failing to talk about a substantial portion of the work And probably the part of the work that differentiates you from the other freelancers who are just like, oh, you need a logo. And they dive like right into Photoshop or whatever tool. Whereas if you're good at what you do, you're probably taking a step back and looking at the whole landscape and spending probably more than half of your time in that Research discovery and learning stage rather than the deliverable stage.[00:17:56] Kimberly:It's actually the most important time intensive stage of any project. And so not just design. I mean, I think you saw my Ted talk, the creative process in eight stages. And I think I talked about how as an artist, I don't want to give anybody whiplash, but like you, as an artist, you have, a period of time where it's like a rest in music where you don't, you're not making work.It doesn't look like you're doing anything on the outside, but that's the most important part. And it's when. Gathering, but you're doing it in a subconscious, like in many different ways when I'm, when I'm making a painting, I'm having to listen a lot, you know, you have to listen and look and just inhale before you can exhale.So anyway, that, but I mean, we could, I think, I think we could do a whole hour on Landour. Cause that was just a, such an interesting, you know? And, and I was actually, I was actually there, I dunno. Well, you're, you probably weren't born, but there was a, Coke released a new design and they, they, and Landour was the leader of this new design.And I was like in the boardroom, in my. In pantyhose. Cause that's what we that's what, like you had aware that it was very far, it was like mad men. It was like mad men where like everybody smoked and the women were gorgeous and the men would like have these glass offices on the side of the boat. And they would like go in and light up a cigarette and call London, you know, like they were like, or Japan and, and they had, it was just extreme, chic, crazy environment, very male dominated.And I was like, I'll often the lone woman in a room, you know, but anyway, that's a separate side conversation and they were introducing the new Coke and it was a flop. It was like, it was like, there was a backlash against the new design because it had like big fat. It was like, whereas the old Coke kind of has that Victorian, which they still use now that, that very Sarah fee or Nate almost like your create above your head, but more, you know, whereas.Where the new version they were doing was super kind of chunky. It was like new Coke, you know, anyway. But, it was a wild experience. I wrote an essay about it and I'll, I'll give it to you if you, if[00:20:35] Nathan:Yeah, we'll put it the Shona[00:20:36] Kimberly:Yeah,[00:20:38] Nathan:On time on that.[00:20:39] Kimberly:Yeah, no, the whole, here's the thing. I wanted to be an artist, and a lot of times I believe a lot of, and I believe there's a lot of people who have an artist inside them and a lot of times they will, work in a field that brings them near art decisions to make themselves feel better.That they're not being an actual artist. And I was one of those people.[00:21:08] Nathan:Okay. So how did that play out for you of your you're close to the design and that sort of[00:21:14] Kimberly:I was like, yeah, it was, I couldn't be closer. I was like, I was like in, I was behind the curtain of Oz doing the, with the, with the best people and everything. Again, this is so long ago, but, but I felt like technology at the time, again, Photoshop was just starting. There was no whatever. I was like, you know, I needed, I need a break.I need to like push the table over. So I quit. I moved to Paris to paint for a year. I played piano in bars at night. That was like a whole other wild. We could do a whole show on that, but, you know, then I was like, well, I can't, I'm not going to be able to make a living doing this. Like I was painting, I was sitting at the sore bone and I was like, I had this little gig in this bar, but it was a couple of Franks and I wasn't legal in Paris.And I just had this big because of my literature background I have does such a, you know, I love you. I was so somewhat of afraid.[00:22:11] Nathan:So how old were you when you[00:22:14] Kimberly:I was in my early twenties.[00:22:16] Nathan:Okay. When you, quit and said it's time to do painting.[00:22:20] Kimberly:Yeah. I was like, it wasn't a straight line. And that's another thing. Like most artists don't like some artists grow up and everybody goes, oh, you're so talented.Which by the way, like hate that expression. I must like tell people, like don't ever tell people they're talented. Say you have great raw material, you know, just say, you know, just like great mom material, but like, you have to like do it for eight hours a day in order to like express something. Great. And then, then we'll talk about talent, but in any case, so some people have parents that say, you're honey, you're so talented.I want to send you to art school. I want to spend a couple hundred grand and I'm going to send you to art school. Undergrad, let's say a good, let's say a typical artist, a college education is this amount. And then I want you to get an MFA from Yale or the best school and have that checked off. And then I want you to go get in galleries and be an artist there's 0.01% of artists have that route.They have parents that say, we support this. This is good. This is a good plan. I would say that's like a very rarefied small group. Cause you have to have, well, there's so many things that need to happen in order to have that setup. Most people, most artists, even artists that I know, like one of my good friends Enrique he was a PA getting his PhD in physics read my dad's book, art and physics and decided he wanted to be a painter[00:23:49] Nathan:Okay,[00:23:50] Kimberly:So like, there's a whole bunch of artists that were doctors that were lawyer, you know, that, that, that they, they were catching the train of you know, the I'm a good student, I'm a diligent worker and they, they, you get routed onto a track and then you're on that track. And then suddenly you wake up at at 30 or whatever, and you say, you know, I'm here and I'm super successful, but this isn't necessarily really how I want to be spending my time.You know? I mean, th this is the conversation, right? You know, how do you, how do you decide and what you can want changes in your life? You know, but if you know what you're pull, the tether poll is like, if you know what, your deep inner core desires. are And, you know, and you, you have, you're remotely in touch with that and you, you need to go, you need to go towards that light.You need to go towards that center then everything will radiate out from you afterwards.[00:24:58] Nathan:Was there a catalyst that pushed you, you know, you were thinking about it, you're feeling this, but what was the thing that made you go like, all right, I'm[00:25:06] Kimberly:Well, okay. Like I said, we don't have enough time to get into all of this, but there were, I made three huge dramatic, you know what? I don't know. Maybe it's a Monty Python movie, I don't know. But like when you push the table over and you throw all the plates and you break everything, like you just come, it's not a reboot, it's way more violent than that.Just kind of like you take the tablecloth out and you just say I'm out of here. You know, I think I did that three times before I got closer to. You know what it is. And one of them was moving to LA after moving to Paris, I moved to New York and then, then I moved to LA and I was like, okay, this time is going to be it I'm being artist.Like, and you know, it's a couple of years later, it's after Paris. Like, you know, cause you have to get, you have to, I had to make money. You know, I had to make a, I had to have a job. And so I had to kind of like do, do design work and stuff like that. So when I moved to LA, my first, I went to a Mac conference, like it was like 60 booths.It was so small, like Mac was seen a teeny little thing and, and Microsoft was the big thing windows and,[00:26:18] Nathan:Yeah.[00:26:19] Kimberly:And I made a business cards and I said, it said artist. And then when I, I walked, went to this conference and I was practically like often the only woman, you know, and I would say, yeah, I'm an artist.And I know. And so the first job I got was making the first CD rom for apple computer that they said distributed to every single apple. So they distributed over 2 million copies worldwide, and my name was on it. And that kind of, that was a huge breakthrough because suddenly I was being offered insane jobs.And next thing you know, I was anyway, like, I don't want to dwell on this because we haven't talked about newsletters yet.[00:27:01] Nathan:That is okay. that is okay. So you just made a leap from, I went to this conference to,[00:27:08] Kimberly:Yeah, by the way speaking, we started with going to a conference.Yeah.[00:27:12] Nathan:A big deal. We are we talking about that as well, but this leap from going to the conference to your work, being on the CD,[00:27:19] Kimberly:Well, so they were, it was like, again, I was on the bleeding edge. I could not explain to my father Who would come down and visit me. In the warehouse. I, it was, it was an artist and a coder who, but they had both met in art school and they brought me on to be the creative director.And it was like, it was almost no money at first. And then it became like a bigger thing and apple, the more that apple saw it, the more they were like, wow, this is really good. so then the next conference I went to was in San Francisco was Macworld and my art was everywhere, everywhere, and I got job offers from Imagineering. They wanted me to design why the Disney, they wanted to be the head. Of Warner music was doing a new interactive division and digital don't digital.I can't remember the names, but it was very, it was a very heady time. It was very, it was very fun. I felt like, wow, I found this place that has it's the intersection of art design, narrative and technology. And it was exactly where I want it to be. And that was just, that was sort of, and I set up an easel in my office, I had a lot of people working for me and it was just, it got very, it got very fancy, you know, and I, and I took a lot of, I took a lot of like what I knew at Landour to attach in this before email this before the internet.[00:28:45] Nathan:You're talking early nineties at this point,[00:28:48] Kimberly:Yeah. Like you no, like a mid yeah. Mid nineties, you know, 96, maybe. So, yeah. So I took a lot of my, knowledge that I gleaned from working at land or like the discover design develop, deploy to whip these engineers and designers into shape, you know? And anyway, I was still stalking what I really wanted to do, you know?[00:29:10] Nathan:Okay. So tell me more about the difference between what you wanted to do and what you were doing, because you just described your art being on everything.[00:29:17] Kimberly:No, no, no, actually, honestly, honestly like I would listen to like Liz fairs, exile in Guyville, as I drove downtown by the toy factory in downtown Los Angeles back and forth, like every day, like at these, I was a big album listener.And when I was designing, I would listen to full albums and I was just like, wow, this is it. I am so excited and energized and everything. then I started studying painting again. So I started so like I had taken a hiatus. And then I got into the, Otis, which is the art school here, You know, when you get professional, when you become a professional in anything, even being an artist, there's a, single-minded rigor focus and clarity. one brings their whole self to what they're doing, you know? And if you know that if If you've been successful in anything else or anything like that, you can, if you bring that to your art, there's literally nothing that can stop.You. You become a wire cutter. It's like, you're going to munch through like, I, you know, really understanding, painting in the deepest way possible. Like I was thinking if I can understand alpha channels, I can figure out how to tone a canvas. You know, just like I just, because painting is a technology, honestly.I took everything in my being to it. And that was like a third moment. Like that was like another moment I skipped some moments, but there was like where I was knocking at the door, knocking at the door. And then I knew that in my art would become the, that I had when I started painting in full force.Like not just having it in my office, but saying this is what I'm going to do. And I'm going to do it as so ferociously, like stand back, everybody, nothing is going to get in my way.[00:31:13] Nathan:So you were painting, I mean, you had is this like painting a few hours a week, a few hours a day, and then you dove into doing that, just like.[00:31:22] Kimberly:This is like 40 hours. I mean, I basically gave myself an assignment and my assignment was I was going to paint a hundred new. Because that's the hardest thing to do as a body. Cause you have to deal with the translucency of skin. And I could literally talk about painting all day, but you have to deal with light form and shadow and thinking in three dimensions and it creates it's.I don't want to knock marketing and technology and the stuff that you do, but painting is that most people do, but painting is a true, like you have to really, it's a very intellectual as well as mindful and spiritual, but it's a very, it's a very deep, deep, deep way to approach the world. And when you become a painter or you actually like listen to the little voice inside you that says that they want to learn this.It's a skill, it's a skill. And when you do that, your brain expands and your world expands and you see things differently. So it's a very transformative thing and it takes years. It takes years and years. So my assignment was I'm going to paint a hundred nudes and, and if I have like 10 good ones, I can have a show.[00:32:41] Nathan:So I want to tie that to maybe the experience that other creators listening would have, or anyone who's on the fence about getting started. Right. It might not be painting that they're trying to do, but they've had these fits and starts of like, I'm going to, learn to code, start a podcast, start a newsletter, any of these things, you know, learning to play an instrument, whatever it is.And then like start and it goes, maybe it goes well for a week or a month, or like what, what advice would you[00:33:11] Kimberly:Isn't there, isn't there like a guru isn't there like a guru in the subject that calls it, the. Who's that guy. Do you know what I'm talking about? Yeah. Somebody told me that, cause I was saying this to somebody and they were like, oh yeah, that's somebody's Seth, Godin's the dip. But yes. You know, when I was younger and all through all through my, you know, middle school and high school and college, I played piano quite seriously.I was a classical pianist and whenever I would learn a difficult piece, I would play it over and over and over again. And I would have to, like, I would start to suck. I would get better, but then I would start to suck and I'd have to walk away and then come back at it the next day before I would be able to play it perfectly.Like, I mean, you know,[00:34:01] Nathan:Yeah.[00:34:04] Kimberly:Learning an instrument actually teaches you this better than anything, because if you make a painting at first and it sucks, you can be easily thwarted, like a, you know, a drawing or whatever. But, but in order to like worry the bone of like how to get that legato, right. And that Greek piano concerto or something like you got to just sort of do it again and again, and again and again, you know, like it's, the fundamental way to learn is you, you imitate, assimilate, and then you can improvise.So you have to like, you play these pieces. And so with anything, you're going to be thwarted in the beginning many times and you can't give up, you have to say, okay, well, I don't care if it even sucks. I don't care if I'm going to fail. If I'm gonna fail, I'm gonna fail big. Like I'm[00:34:52] Nathan:Right[00:34:52] Kimberly:Go all out.Let's just go on.[00:34:54] Nathan:But that specific assignment that you gave yourself of painting 100 nudes, do you think that an assignment like that is a good way to go as a creator of saying this is the commitment that I'm going to make, I'm going to get to a hundred podcast episodes or I'm going to, I don't know, write a hundred blog posts, and then I can decide if this is something I actually want to pursue.[00:35:13] Kimberly:Absolutely. I think that when you make a commitment like that, to devote your energy into building a body of work of any kind in any media, you, your life will change everything. You are going to gain skills that involve every facet of that media. So like, if you're a podcaster and let's say you record in iMovie you're going to learn iMovie or whatever they, whatever they edit podcasts.In And, and I think if, you know, if Leonardo DaVinci were alive today, trusts me. He would know Photoshop He would know he would be all over this stuff, you know, he would love, he would love it in this nether world space, because there's, I'm, I'm going off topic a little bit because there's a little bit of a prejudice in the art world where people were thinking they were resisting the newer technological versions of artwork.But back to process, what you were saying is that if you do something in a committed way and you basically measure it and say, I'm going to do it until I get to this point, I think a hundred might be excessive, but you're going to get the hang of it.[00:36:28] Nathan:Yeah[00:36:28] Kimberly:I mean, I haven't mixed feelings though, about blogging cause I started a blog again, when I was, really getting into.Consuming. I mean, consuming isn't the right word. When I was throwing my entire body into the art world, one of the things that I did to expand my own knowledge was to write about other artists. And I think that's also something that's super unspoken, especially in the art world, because a lot of artists are just saying Me me me I want attention.I want to get people to focus on my show and my work, and I want a gallery and I want this and that. And I think one of the most important, aspects of breaking through to any next level of anything is generosity. Generosity of your attention to other people who are doing the same thing. And that for me, that general, I mean, I didn't think of this.This is red, this is a in retrospect, but at the time when I look back on it, I was airlifting artists that nobody had heard of and writing about them along with other big art, you know? And so I had a successful weekly column where I was keeping a blog again, this was before social media and that's how, and then the Huffington post came along and then I started publishing it, the, having a post.And that's how I said, I was asked by Arianna Huffington to be the, to found an art section. And so I was like, I was perfectly positioned because I was, I was a big nerd. I had had these other experiences. I was a full-on painter. I was having shows galleries the whole thing. And then she was building this incredible Site to celebrate bloggers. And I was one of the bloggers So I had to build an audience from zero to 10 million people within two years. I didn't have to that's what happened.[00:38:26] Nathan:Right.I have so many things that I want to ask about in this, one thing that I want to highlight that you talked about is as you're doing the painting, there's the side of it, of, Research where you're researching other painters, learning from them and all that. Most people keep that Research to themselves, right?That is not a public thing that happens. And I think a lot of the most successful creators that I see are the ones who do that recent. And, and share their notes and share that and work in public and do the interviews and all of that that you were doing. because it does a couple things. One people follow you, not only for your own work, but then also for your notes on other people.And then too, it's incredible for meeting people. Like when you do a profile, either if they're a, say an upcoming artist or someone who's established either way, they're going to be like, when you, you know, when you send them an email, they'll like respond and be interested and engaged. And, you know, I mean, that's a reason that I do this podcast is so that I can meet and hang out with people that I want to more aboutIt's amazing for network.[00:39:30] Kimberly:Yes. I think you're exactly spot on. This is no different than what I did with artists, this, except for I wasn't involving video, I was writing about it and interviewing them. You're right. You're absolutely right. I also think that you can get too carried away with that though. Like you have to be careful, you have to make sure that you're, you know, I can become easily like Clydesdale the horse.I'm like, well, that's another month and I have to do another,[00:39:57] Nathan:It becomes more important than the art, which was the[00:40:00] Kimberly:Well, yeah,[00:40:01] Nathan:It feels more time than[00:40:02] Kimberly:Yeah, yeah. Like, so eventually I had to leave, because it was just sort of eclipsing. It became so much bigger than everything else I was doing that I had to like go, okay, this isn't, you know, I've got a show coming up. I can't devote all this time and energy. And then of course, social media kind of made it all really different.[00:40:24] Nathan:Like in what way?[00:40:25] Kimberly:Well, because not only we could, you know, writing a really thoughtful piece about an artist and looking at their work and, you know, relating it with art history. And I also found that if I could relate it to like a contemporary event, like there was this one painter who painted battle scenes and we were just going to war with Iraq, I think, anyway, we were going to war somewhere.You know, it was a horrible time, but like, I would talk about going, you know, this contemporary news event. And I would link it with the artist who was painting these battle scenes. And then seeing that it went, go.[00:41:04] Nathan:Right.[00:41:04] Kimberly:Was another, that was another big learning lesson is like, if you put a number in a headline, like 10 things, you, you should tell, you know, 10 rules for your kids and screens, you know, then people would read that more.So I could see the analytics of what people clicked on. You know, that was like a interesting learning experience. But when social media happened, then suddenly you also had to tweet it. You had to post it on Facebook and then you had to tweet about it and then it just got to be social media. here's my take, if I could just say one thing, because I want to get it out there.I think social media is great for first impressions so that when people see you for the first time they're going to go that person's like a real artist or they're a real whatever, and they're legit. And they don't just have like three things that they've said about the subject. They've actually like, I trust that they've done some deep things.Like me painting a hundred nudes, you know, like this person knows how to paint.So I think social media, it's just so easy to get carried away. I hope one day it goes away. Is that terrible to say? I think emails should be everything. It should just go away.[00:42:14] Nathan:I don't think it's terrible to say at all. You have something in your Ted talk. you talked about like the compulsion to paint being taken away by your smartphone and these distractions, And I'd love for you to talk about that because I think there's so many things of like, if I'm on Twitter or checking my email, or even interacting with the ConvertKit team 2,700 times a day, you know, it makes it so much harder as a creator.And so I like, I just want to hear more of your experience there.[00:42:45] Kimberly:Well, I mean, in order to even get into my zone mentally to paint, I have to like have at least 90 minutes where I haven't spoken with anybody. Like I just need to kind of like clear it. Like I need to, I mean, I can be in it and I've got all these, you know, because people everybody's different. Some people like beginnings, some people like middles, other people's like ends.So you have to get in touch with which person you are, you know? So I, I love middles and beginning. I actually like all of them, but like, I'm better at certain things. So whenever I go into the studio, I have to start in paintings that are in the middle, that many going on at once. so you have to get in touch with like what time of day you're best at.And I always begin things at the end of the day when I'm already like nice and a well-oiled machine, well-oiled creating Machine.I never begin things in the morning. I always begin. at the end of the day, I never begin paintings in the morning. I was beginning, you know, I mean, I, I'm not, I know I'm not answering your question.Your question is, compartmentalizing your time to protect it away from social media. I teach a master class and I teach a Masterclass with artists who are building their first body of work, or they, they want to build a body of work in the masterclass.I make them take an oath an Instagram oath Instagram is it's so draining psychologically, emotionally, mentally, and the effort that you put into it that you really have to like commit and, and, and artists feel pressure to post their progress and post once a day and stuff like that.And the truth is, that algorithm, the algorithm is so fraught right now because you really only see the last 20 people that you liked more often than not. And you're not, it it's just, it's not healthy. It's not healthy for a visual artist Because you'll be on it. You check it like a diabetic checking their insulin level.It's just like, oh, did it get enough? Likes all that. It's like, Ugh. So I use, later to post once a week because I don't really want to deal with it. So I'll do like four months at a time. But if like I have a museum show opening up on Saturday, so I have to make a post this week. And so that that's like in my brain, oh God, I got to make a post this week.And when my book was coming out, like that's a whole other topic about promote, you know, how to tell people and that a book is coming out. yeah. So I just kind of look at it like, you know, kind of like a creative sinkhole,[00:45:15] Nathan:Yeah. And so it[00:45:15] Kimberly:So it[00:45:15] Nathan:Makes sense to avoid it. I think we hear that advice from a lot of talented creators and it's easy to be like, yeah. Yeah. But I can, I'm the person who can sit down and write with a moment's notice, you know? And then you you get totally stuck on writer's block or whatever thing, because you're like, you actually didn't create that space.And, like you talked about in the Ted talk of that time to like daydream and to actually be there, present with yourself and your thoughts.[00:45:42] Kimberly:Yeah, it's true. I mean, there's this thing in neuroscience called empathetic mirroring. Do you know about[00:45:48] Nathan:I don't know.[00:45:49] Kimberly:It's this, it's like when you see somebody, for example, write on a chalkboard, the neurons in your brain, I'm not going to say this. Right? So if a neuroscientist says I'm like slightly wrong, but like, it, it, it has this effect where you feel like you're doing it, you know, like, and it's, that's why people love to watch people write things.That's why a chalkboard is an excellent device for, I actually have a chalkboard in my office because I started to. Take videos of me make with my talking points of me writing it on a chalkboard, because even though it's considered like, you know, yesteryear technology, it actually helps people receive the information better to see it written[00:46:34] Nathan:Rather than being next[00:46:36] Kimberly:Rather than just show a PowerPoint slide.Yeah. And so this, the act of seeing it rhythm, but so if, if you think about the power of empathetic mirroring, that's going on in your brain, when you look at something happening, think about how much it can pollute your brain. If you're watching a stream of all these things happening in your Instagram feed or your Facebook feed, it's like dangerous.Like you have to be protective of what is going inside your mind. It's that they say like garbage in, garbage out, you know,[00:47:04] Nathan:I want to hear about you getting into the world of, of like teaching classes and that side of it, and then you have a book as well. There's a lot.[00:47:12] Kimberly:Oh yes. So I have this book,[00:47:15] Nathan:There[00:47:15] Kimberly:So, you know, around a decade into, you know, being a serious painter, I started to feel bad from the fumes because painting isn't really taught the way other things are taught. Painting is sort of like, there's, there's been this somewhat mystical, you know, here's a bunch of art supplies go to the art store and then let's see what you come up with.And then the, the, the classes tend to be more about critiques, about what you've done versus about,[00:47:45] Nathan:How do something.[00:47:46] Kimberly:About the, the true, true granular house, you know, the, how, like the basics, like things that you should know. And, so I started to get sick and I happened to be the arts editor at the time of the Huffington post.And I reached out to, and blogging was a very interesting, it was around 2004 or five, I think. Maybe, maybe it was a little bit later, but it was an interesting time because other people were thinking what I was thinking and I could see it in search for it. Whereas I couldn't, I couldn't have done that a decade earlier.And so I would reach out to leaders in the field, scientists, whatnot, to write about this topic of safety, you know, like that. And, but then when I read and I had, by the way, been consuming, Disneyland books, everything about painting, and I just saw this huge gaping hole of knowledge of how. Communicated. So I started writing this book all about painting and the book that I ended up publishing with Chronicle books is just one small piece of it because it was kind of too big.It was like James Joyce's Ulysses, you know, it was like a tone. It was like a Magnum Opus. and it's one of the key things that people don't realize is that you don't need to use solvent's P many people believe that you need to have like an open can of turpentine or some kind of solvent to dip your brush and defend the oil paint.So it's like super basic and most people when they go to the art store, and this is just my short, my short, skinny on the book. As most people, when they go to the art store, it would be like only buying canned or prepackaged. They don't know what's in it, you know, they don't know like that you don't need all those things.Like, but if you were like learning how to cook, you would know the difference between a garlic and a shallot and when to use canola oil or olive oil extra-virgin, you know, so I wanted to create, to start a book called the Y that was like Strunk and White's elements of style, but for oil paintings. So that's like the famous book that most writers use and just sort of shows you.And it's funny, actually, it's like a great book. So I wrote that book and that's called the new oil painting and it's published by Chronicle and it came out in June and it's like staying at the top, like five books of oil painting, which is great, you know? So I'm very excited about that. But in any way, in that journey of writing the book, the book, the book deal I got was two years ago.It was like a while ago. And so Susan. Did that I thought, you know, I would be a fool to not have a class that went with the book. So to the summer of 2019, I had, I had like four solo exhibitions in a row and I thought, okay, I'm going to devote six months and I'm going to record videos and I'm going to do that.You know? So I created this class that I wish that I had, and it was way bigger than the book. It was like everything I've ever thought about oil painting and that's called oil painting, fluency and flow. And, so yeah, so I launched a class, so the classes are out there[00:50:52] Nathan:Are the classes something that, you know, you're teaching in an online course? Are you there in person or through a partnership with.[00:50:58] Kimberly:So once I, once I learned about. That you can oil paint anywhere like you, Nathan tomorrow could decide, you know what? I w I've got an artist in me. I want to, I want to learn how to paint and you could set it up next year, you know, like in a little side table next to your computer, and there would be no fumes, no nothing.And it's much better for the environment it's not made out of plastic. It's like, you know, you could do it. So I wanted to get the word out. And, so my first class is, and so I was started teaching at major institutions. So the Anderson ranch in Colorado and the Otis where I actually took lessons, I taught there.And then, I just thought to myself, you know, this is highly inefficient because I have to like schlep over there and go there for, you know, hours at a time. And I could reach so many more people if I recorded. Instruction. And so I made these recordings, that's a hybrid of recordings and live sessions and critiques.And I have, you know, I have about 78 students right now. They're from all over the world and it's like the boast enriching wonderful, fabulous thing I've ever done[00:52:08] Nathan:Yeah.[00:52:09] Kimberly:To being an artist, you know,[00:52:11] Nathan:And so how does that interact with the newsletter that you have?[00:52:14] Kimberly:Well, I mean, so all of my experience, just as an artist has taught me that you, your value that you bring to any situation is the people that you can tell about what you do. It's like a tree falls in the forest. Nobody knows you're having a show. You know, you can't just rely on your art dealer.And the The dynamic has changed where. People don't have one, rarely do people have one gallery that represents them. And then they've got a bunch of satellite galleries. So you kind of have to be a little bit more entrepreneurial as an artist. And so you need to gather an email list. And so I stopped blogging and instead I have a newsletter because I want, you know, and I I have a narrative of stories that I tell about creativity about, about like I'll crawl deeply inside the making of a single painting of mine, or maybe another one.And I, and each email I send out, I spend a lot of time on, and it's like a work of art by itself because it's, again, it may be a different thing. a newsletter may be slightly different than a blog, but it's still words and image and it's just how. It's like another work of art, it's another work of art.And I love, using ConvertKit. I mean, I really, really do I tell people about it. I tell people about it all the time, because I think it's, it's the first software I've encountered that, allows you to very easily create a sequence. And, you know, you can I tell people, I say like, if you want to think about it, you could unspool Tolstoy's war and peace.If you wanted, like you could, every week you could give like a little section and you can start at the beginning and it takes the pressure off needing to constantly have every email be a first impression. So you can really get, let people to get, to know you in a much deeper, more personal way, because you create a sequence of letters to them that[00:54:23] Nathan:Right[00:54:24] Kimberly:Over time.[00:54:24] Nathan:Well, I think that's a really important point about starting at the beginning, because when you're sending these one-off emails to your newsletter, you don't know where people are joining. Some people for years and other people that is the very first thing. And so every time I find myself adding these caveats are like, Hey, if you're new here, you know, any of those things and with a, an email sequence, you know, the automated series, it starts at the beginning every time and it works people through it.And so I've had that. I've had so much fun creating those because you can chip away at them. Like I have one that I'm kind of writing now on, I guess it's on personal finance, you know? And it's just things that I wish that I had known as like, Moderately successful creator. Like, Hey, you're now earning a full-time living, what what's next?And so I can just write about that when I feel like it and add to this, that's now like 10 or 12 emails long.[00:55:20] Kimberly:And what's your frequent.[00:55:22] Nathan:That one I said to every week, but if I don't write for it, everyone just kind of pulls up at the end and weights, you know, for the next email. So it's 10 emails And then I add to it. And so like last week I didn't add a new one. And so now there's like a hundred people that are all the way at the end and they didn't get an email last week,[00:55:41] Kimberly:Yeah, no, I have that situation. I have a two year sequence[00:55:45] Nathan:Oh, wow.[00:55:45] Kimberly:I mean, I know like I sound, I probably seem super extroverted and voluble and everything like that, but like, I, I, it's very difficult for me to sell. It's very, it's very not. It's not cool for an artist to be. So like, I mean, it's just hard.It's also just hard for me. It's my personality. Like I even posting on Instagram is like a stressful thing for me. It's like, did I get everything that, you know, like I just, it's just not, I'm not one of those people that just casually throw stuff out there. I just, I'm very thoughtful and I want it, you know, it to be meaningful.And, but anyway, I was having trouble announcing that a workshop was over. Like serious trouble. Like I would put it off and I'd say, I can't do it. I can't press the send button. Like I just, even though you have the schedule feature on the broadcast, I was like, I can't do it. I can't do it. And you know, I, I can't remember the name of the marketing guru who was, have the five day sequence or, you know, basically a launch sequence is a series of emails where you first email is all about it.The second email might address one's reservations about it. The third Emile email might be testimonials. And then the fourth and fifth email are like last chance to get it. Like that to me is like, I would rather have needle eyes surgery than do that, you know, so I built it in, so I basically have the sequence where every quarter there's a launch sequence.Is that crazy[00:57:13] Nathan:No, it's fantastic[00:57:14] Kimberly:Because then, so, so that way, like I can just set it and forget it, like back to the Crock-Pot thinking like, you know, like, you know, just set it and forget it. You're going to sign up. You're going to get an announcement for a walk shop, a workshop a couple months after you've gotten to know me.[00:57:30] Nathan:Do you think that, well actually I guess really quick, the thing that I love about that is you can be completely immersed in your painting, right? And there you are selling a workshop and you're like, you don't, you have to think about it or know about it. Cause you did that work once and now you've finished a whole day of, of painting.Start something new at the end of the day. Cause that's the way that you roll. And then also you can say like finish up and check those sales and check that engagement. See, oh, people.[00:57:58] Kimberly:Yyeah, yeah. I mean, it's, it's just, it's I think people before they're going to buy anything, need to feel. Most people need to feel, you know, a level of comfort about what that person is about. so, you know, I haven't touched you tube. I haven't really, I honestly, I haven't made, I haven't made a huge effort because I've had the book coming out and I F I ha I had a big exhibition in June because, I designed a series of, excuse me.I designed, I painted a series of abstract paintings, for the cover of the book, because I wanted the cover, the book to be stellar and represent like a specified stroke, like hanging in air, like, to just convey the idea of painting and not be like a landscape, because for some crazy reason, if you, if you look up oil, painting, all the books, About oil painting are so poorly designed.It's like, it's strange because you would think people who are artists would care about design, but it's like pink pallet, Tino, bold 14 point font over like a green sunset. it's[00:59:07] Nathan:Yeah, well, design and painting are not necessarily the same thing you happen to come from a world where you have a lot of this. Even those two worlds have intertwined for you a lot over your career. So it makes sense to[00:59:18] Kimberly:Yes, but, but when, when, but if you get, but the painting books, like if you see a PA a painting book that has like a landscape on it, what if you don't like the landscape or they all have a landscape, or it has like the, the, you know, a face that's loosely drawn with, you know, painted with turbine, you know, Alla prima anyway.I've had so many exhibitions and like, I have a, I have a show coming up on Saturday and I've got to tell people about it. So like, I have to be, I'm already out there as an artist. So I have two different sequences and newsletters. I've got like a workshops for people who express interest in a workshop within the main newsletter.Like if, if, like, I'll say like I have this one great newsletter where the subject line is, who is this gorgeous woman? And then I show a picture cause they used to paint these beautiful renditions of the faces of the Egyptian mummies inside the sarcophagus, like beyond gorgeous. Like if you looked it up, you'd say, oh my God, this most beautiful painting I've ever seen.And it looks a lot like Francesco Clemente, which is an artist that like paint uses the same aspect ratio. It's like, you sort of go, oh, that's where that guy got that idea, you know? But. I'll talk about the pigments and that they used to, like, they used to burn mummies and then take the ashes and make a pigment called mummy brown.I know that sounds really kind of gross, but like, but, but they that's what they did. And I I'll say like, if this interests you, you might be interested in like a workshop. then if they say yes, then they'll go into my workshop sequence and they'll get notified when I open them.[01:01:00] Nathan:Are there other things that you do with email and with your newsletter[01:01:04] Kimberly:Yeah. Like I, like, I really want, I really want people to easily update their preferences. So I created a jot form like that simple select, you know, check box check if you're no longer interested in, workshops. No problem. Let me know. And I don't get enough work. Ominous, but hopefully, hopefully you'll put that feature in soon.[01:01:30] Nathan:We're actually working on building that feature now. So,[01:01:33] Kimberly:Are you kidding? When does it come out[01:01:34] Nathan:It's one of those asking where the paintings are done. It'll be done when it's done.[01:01:40] Kimberly:The other thing that I do is I really think gifts are important. And I think the marketer, the marketing community is really cheesy about it. Like they always do like outtakes from friends for reaction shots.And it's just so horrible, but I mean, it's just corny and you know who I'm talking about, but, you know, anyway, a gift is a beautiful thing because it's a movie that plays automatically and it doesn't have sound and. it can be so beautiful and subtle, you know, so every time I make a news that I usually have like an, it's like a work of art to me, you know?And sometimes if I want to emphasize a word, I'll paint a picture of that word and I'll integrate it in it. So like I really spend, I really love making them special. Yeah. I have one about the creative process and about not, not the Ted talk that you saw, but like I have one that's on the lead up to talking about the masterclass.Where it's called the curse of perfection. And I show, I talk about how, when I was a kid, my mother used to always like, she would sometimes wear like super smudge makeup and it was psych, it was called the smoky eye. I mean, they still do it now, but now the beauty people make it super specific, but then it was not that it was a little bit more like, woo.And I found a beautiful GIF of like a smokey eye, like slowly opening and closing. And I then go off on this whole subject about how, you know, it's as a painter, you have to let go of that, of the chains of perfection. You have to let it go in order to.[01:03:22] Nathan:Yeah. Well, I love that you're taking a medium that you know, of email or gifts or any of these things that a lot of people use in one way. And you're bringing those styles in that like class and sophistication and really just the level of effort. I think a lot of people are like hearing. Oh, I'm supposed to have, images or gifts.I'm supposed to be funny. And so they just look for something and slap it in there. And there's a level of effort that's not happening there, but because you're doing these automated sequences and you know that if you put this effort into it, it will last and work for you for years, then it's worth it.You can do a custom painted, you know, word or something like that to illustrate a point.[01:04:04] Kimberly:I mean, I have the luxury of having hundreds of paintings, and pieces of paintings, and video of—there's nothing sexier and more beautiful than watching somebody mix paint. There's literally nothing more gorgeous than that—So, I'm lucky.And I understand that other creators have to find other things, but there's a way to do things that have like a metaphorical—I here's what I would say. I would recommend that people seek to enhance their ability to think in metaphor when they write.So if they're gonna talk about a subject, and they're talking about a roadblock, instead of drawing a boulder on a road, find some other image or GIF. I use a lot of GIFs from ballet. You can find beautiful GIFs just by searching “Swan Lake” GIF, and it implies a physical movement.It goes back into that empathetic mirroring, where you feel that your own body is doing these movements that are surrounding this idea. It's not directly about what you're talking about, but it's like a little bit to the left, or it's just kind of a metaphorical version of it. It creates the space in between what you're literally saying, and what you're actually seeing that ignites the imagination and the view.[01:05:35] Nathan:Yeah. I love that. Just putting that extra bit of effort into defining the thing that's adjacent, rather than blatantly the first thing that came to mind. I think that makes a huge difference.[01:05:46] Kimberly:Yeah,[01:05:46] Nathan:We need to do a part two, because I have like 25 more questions to ask you, and we're out of time.[01:05:52] Kimberly:I'm in. I'm in.[01:05:54] Nathan:This has been amazing. Where should people go to subscribe to the newsletter?[01:05:58] Kimberly:They should go to KimberlyBrooks.com. The newsletter's right there in the footer and on the top. I really love communicating this way, and it's been an honor to be on this podcast, because I really love the product you've created. I really couldn't do it without you—without ConvertKit.So, I just, I'm such a fan, and I'm an evangelist, so kudos to you.[01:06:19] Nathan:Wow, thank you.Well, we're exci

My guest on this episode is music industry veteran, Jay Gilbert. Jay wears a lot of hats. He's a musician, photographer, marketer, speaker, and music executive. Jay has worked as a creative consultant to many record companies and artists. He hosts The Music Biz Weekly Podcast, is a Co-founder of Label Logic, and runs the weekly music newsletter Your Morning Coffee.Label Logic helps artists, managers, and labels grow their audience and optimize their presence across all platforms. Jay's newsletter is curated to give a weekly snapshot of the new music business. It's everything you need to know, delivered to your inbox every Friday morning.I talk with Jay about his shift to being a content creator. We talk about life as a musician, working in the music industry, and being a photographer. We also talk about his management company, and his advice for creators wanting to build their audience. Jay also shares some behind the scenes stories, and much more.In this episode, you'll learn: Simple hacks to grow your newsletter Defining and reaching your target audience Low-budget tricks to instantly add new subscribers Jay's #1 metric for becoming a successful creator Links & Resources ConvertKit Ben Barnes People Jeff Moscow Travis Tritt Ali Abdaal ConvertKit's Creator Sessions Music Connect (MRC) Chartmetric Viberate Soundcharts Pollstar Cherie Hu Amber Horsburgh Glenn Peoples Bobby Owsinski Bruce Houghton Hypebot Sound & Vision Music Technology Policy Nancy Wilson Roblox Jay Gilbert's Links Follow Jay on Twitter Your Morning Coffee newsletter Ben Barnes 11:11 on People.com JayGilbert.net Label Logic The Music Biz Weekly Podcast Episode Transcript[00:00:00] Jay:The harder I work, the luckier I get. You make your own luck. You see these people, and you're like, “Wow, that guy just blew up on TikTok or, Twitch, or on Spotify, or Apple Music!” Sometimes that happens. Not very often, and it usually it's a lot of hard work.[00:00:26] Nathan:In this episode, I talk to Jay Gilbert. Jay's a music industry veteran. He's been at it for a very long time. What I love is that he's also made this shift into being a content creator, as well as being a musician and a photographer. So many incredible things. He's got this newsletter about the music industry called Your Morning Coffee, and he's grown into over 15,000 subscribers.It's the thing that everyone in the music industry is reading every Friday morning. We talk about how he grew that, his passion for the music industry, how the industry has shifted, what's working, what's not. He also runs a management company called Label Logic where they're partnering with, artists and managers, and doing these album releases, and so much else.He's got all these behind the scenes stories, and a lot of advice that is not only for the music industry, but also for any creator looking to build an audience, and endure long enough to get noticed, and to build a brand and everything else. It's really good towards the end.I also sneak in some selfish questions about what would he do to grow ConvertKit; what's his advice for ConvertKit entering the music industry.Jay, welcome to the show.[00:01:39] Jay:Hey, thanks for having me, Nathan. Good morning.[00:01:41] Nathan:Good morning.We'll dive into some of your background, what you're working on now, but you actually had a pretty big project launch today.What did you launch today?[00:01:54] Jay:Well, when you launch a big project, sometimes it's like a wedding. You have all this planning, planning, planning, and then boom, there it is. It was pretty exciting this morning. We've had to keep quiet about this project. It's Ben Barnes, who is a pretty famous actor, but most people don't know he's a brilliant singer songwriter and pianist.We've recorded this really great record. We've got some amazing videos, given his relationships in that area. They're quite special. We launched a window of exclusivity this morning with People Magazine.So, if you go to People.com, you'll see. the video is debuting. It's pretty special, and we're really excited about it. It gets released tomorrow. The song's called 11:11, by Ben Barnes. It's pretty cool. I think you'll dig it.[00:02:53] Nathan:Nice. Yeah. If anyone doesn't recognize the name, Ben Barnes, he plays Prince Caspian. I've been a fan of the Narnia series and all that for a long time. I think my kids actually just rewatched Prince Caspian two weeks ago.[00:03:09] Jay:Have you seen shadow and bone yet?You got to check out shadow and bone. My, my wife and I binged watched it. And he's, he's brilliant in that, but it's a really cool series.[00:03:21] Nathan:Nice. Okay. So maybe with that, of like a snapshot of, of what you just launched, Let's talk about, a little bit about, logic[00:03:32] Jay:Sure.[00:03:33] Nathan:You know, what types of projects you do. And then we can go back to like the road to get.[00:03:38] Jay:Yeah, well, Label Logic was born out of my partner, Jeff Moscow, and I working in the major label ecosystem for years and years. And we finally got to a point where we were meeting one day for coffee and said, you know, we started our own.So we both worked at universal for a long time. He was there 20 years.I was there 18 years. I worked at Warner music, for five years managing Amazon's business for we at ADA, globally, which was fantastic. but we decided to do our own things. It's about seven years ago, give or take,[00:04:16] Nathan:Yeah.[00:04:17] Jay:We started talking to. Some clients that we had at universal and we sort of became the label infrastructure for some management companies.One of our long-term clients and friends is doc McGee, who you might know, manages kiss. And he managed, you know, Motley, Crue and Bon Jovi and Diana Ross and the Supremes. Anyway, doc is a mentor, a friend and a client. And we came in and one of our first projects was working with him and his stable of artists.And what was exciting about that is that you'd have some artists that were new developing artists. They're never played live before all the way to people filling up arenas. And so the release cycles would change out and it was very dynamic and very exciting. So. That's what Label Logic is all about. We typically are sort of the label infrastructure, for managers, some artists, you know, we also work with some labels and distributors.I think one of our most exciting projects was taking and creating this thing called resilience music Alliance, with the principals there and they signed the artists. We did, you know, the marketing and digital strategy and help them get all the planes flying in formation. And w you know, we won a Grammy last year, so it was really exciting just going from zero to 60, you know, just building something with your own two hands.[00:05:46] Nathan:Yeah. So what is the, for someone who's outside the music industry and they're like this. Just magic. Somehow you find artists and then somehow that goes all the way through to your album releases. When he grabbed me, things like that, like, what are the specific things that, that you're helping out on and playing in?What, what's your role there?[00:06:06] Jay:Yeah, good question. It really is the unsexy nuts and bolts things about setting up a release, everything from securing ISRC codes to shooting the album cover to making sure the, the album is recorded and delivered on time. It's all the creative surrounding it. You know, all of the banners and videos and press release and bio, and there's so much of this to do.That we organize it all. And then we help, excuse me with partners. You may need a publicist. You may need somebody to work sync licensing. You may need somebody for March, right? There are all these different things that you need to do. And we basically, we like to say that we're planners, but we're also problem solvers because every single project is different and has different needs.We recently launched a new album by Travis Tritt. Fantastic record. His team is button. They are experienced. So we took on really more of a, more of a planning role putting together the marketing plans. But then we have some artists that have never released music before. So it's a little more handholding, you know, all those certain things, because it's not about gaming the system today.It's really more about optimization. People always come to us and they say, well, I got to get on this plane. or I want my YouTube numbers to be up and we have t-shirts printed that say a playlist is not a marketing plan, right. Because our playlist important. Sure. They are, but that's down the road.There's so much to do before that. And really when I talk about optimization, when it comes to YouTube or DSPs like Spotify, apple music, Pandora, Deezer, it's not about gaming the system. It's about optimum. Right. And when you do that optimization, whether it's with your website, DSPs, press, any of that good things typically happen.[00:08:02] Nathan:What's an example of some of that optimization that, works rather than, you know, maybe what people are latching onto is is a magic bullet.[00:08:12] Jay:Yeah, couple of obvious ones. Let's take YouTube and Spotify, Spotify, because you can do more with Spotify than any other DSP. As far as you can change out your image, your banner image, your, your avatar, your artist image. You can add, I think 140 images. to your profile, you can put your social links, you can put your bio, there's, all these things that you can do that you can't do.Other places, not all of them.[00:08:38] Nathan:Yeah.[00:08:38] Jay:So, you know, you'd be surprised how many times we'll go look at somebody's Spotify profile and it's an old image and there's somebody in the photo that's not even in the band anymore, or it's just, it's just dated. And you look at the bio and it's, it's dated one of the first places we look, is someone's Spotify profile.Is it updated? YouTube is a really great example. Optimizing for YouTube is so easy and yet a lot of artists miss it. YouTube is not just a place to go drop your music. YouTube is something that, you know, through their community, through your, your artist page. So many things that you can do with that, the common mistakes we see is an obvious one.You know, the name of the videos should be artists titled. Artists title version, and they're mixed up and they're all over the place you want to optimize for that search, right? You want to, for example, the thumbnail, sometimes you go in and look at people's videos and there's literally a picture of somebody blinking is the cover of the video.[00:09:44] Nathan:Right. Cause this is what will, what YouTube selected randomly.[00:09:47] Jay:Yeah. And, and as you know, you can, they'll give you like three or four choices and you can pick one of those, but you can upload any image you want to be on though. And so we have actually a deck that we put together on YouTube and we show these examples of like, here's Lizzo and look at this. It's perfect.It's a beautiful photo of her. And it's, and then you look at the description, you know, is there a smart URL in there? You know, so. I don't recommend people put Spotify, apple, Pandora, Deezer, Amazon music, just put a smart URL in there. Have somebody click on that and then they can choose the platform, whether it was.Downloads, probably not physical, digital, YouTube website, all of that stuff. It's so easy to do. And then also in that description, anything that somebody might care about, who, who shot it, who produced it? Show me the lyrics, you know, give me put all that information in there. So it's, it's searchable. there that's, those are a couple of simple examples of optimization.[00:10:44] Nathan:Yeah. You know, it's interesting. one of the earlier guests that have the show, his name's Ali doll, and he's a YouTuber and he's got 2 million subscribers who's channel and he's just built this incredible, business. And I always think about YouTube as like him optimizing, you know, video like thumbnails and all of those details.Like obviously Lizzo is doing the same thing or really her team is doing that. Right. But it's, it's the exact same. game just in two different industries.[00:11:13] Jay:Yeah, it is. And another way to optimize YouTube, for example, and you can watch what you know, Justin Bieber's doing, and you can learn a lot from those things. one of my favorite writers and marketers is Amber Horsburgh and she did kind of a breakdown of. Some of these marketing campaigns, including Justin Bieber.And one of the things that you see is something we stress all the time. YouTube optimization. You don't just post your concept video or whatever your music video, you still have like five videos, six videos, meaning, you know, you want to have that concept video, but you also may want to lyric video. You may want a stripped down video.You may want a live video, right? there's so many like a pseudo video. It goes by a bunch of different names, but I know you've seen these where it's just the album art. And the audio bed. And sometimes people look at those and go, well, why that's not a video? Why is that on YouTube? Well, that's because YouTube is the number one destination to listen to music.It's not Spotify. Right? It's, it's YouTube people create playlists from those, you know? so it's really important to. Optimized for all of these platforms. And that, that means socials, you know, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, as well as the DSPs, as well as all of these. And again, it's not gaming the system.The problem we run into sometimes is people will come to us and they'll say, oh, well, you know, I, I bought these spins or I bought these lights. Well, now you're in trouble because number one, you can get pulled off of Spotify, right? in January 750,000 tracks were pulled off of Spotify for using bots and spin farms.Right. So[00:13:05] Nathan:Quickly,[00:13:06] Jay:Very careful[00:13:07] Nathan:Someone spinning up a whole bunch of computers and bots to go listen to the song on Spotify to be like, look, I now have a million plays.[00:13:17] Jay:Right?[00:13:18] Nathan:Um[00:13:18] Jay:Yeah. But they're not real, right.[00:13:20] Nathan:Yeah. Okay. I I've definitely seen that on Instagram, Twitter. But like, yeah, it makes sense that, that it exists on[00:13:28] Jay:Yeah[00:13:29] Nathan:First thing that you look at when, when I, like, when we're looking to book an artist for a creator sessions or, or some, one of our other projects, you know, you're, you're, it's that first source of credibility of like, oh, wow.That has two to 2 million plays this. Person's getting a lot of traction.[00:13:44] Jay:But what we look at instead of looking at those numbers, we look at engagement and when you look at engagement, sometimes you see the audience grow and that's going up, up, up. But if you don't see the engagement growing along with it, Then you know, that those aren't real people, because when you use bots and spin farms to Jack up these numbers, yes, it's dangerous because it can get you in trouble, but it screws with all of your, data, which is so important, right?The, what you really want. is Engagement. You want people to like, yeah, you want people to follow, but you want people to listen, share comment. That's real engagement, man. You get that. Uh that's that's the prize.[00:14:29] Nathan:Yeah. So let's go back. as you're getting into music, what, like, in the, in the early days, what was the hook for you? What, what brought you to the whole industry?[00:14:39] Jay:Oh, my gosh. Well, my, my family's musical, you know, my brother, you know, he's a Writer record producer, graphic design artists. my mom played piano. My grandfather played sax and big band. You know, I started a little high school band and ended up, you know, touring in bands and playing, writing, recording. So I kind of got to know how the sausage was made and, and I loved working in record stores.I worked for an indie record store. I worked for tower records for five years. There's so much fun.Um and[00:15:08] Nathan:Been in the industry.[00:15:09] Jay:Yeah, I've always been in music and, working at universal was just such a joy. learned so much. yeah, I've always been surrounded by, by music ever since I was little kid.[00:15:21] Nathan:What's something as a,[00:15:24] Jay:Oh[00:15:25] Nathan:If you're talking to an outsider, maybe a common misconception they have, know, someone who's a fan of music then you're like, oh, this is actually how it works that you find yourself explaining or,[00:15:37] Jay:Oh, my gosh, we could talk for days.[00:15:39] Nathan:Yeah.[00:15:40] Jay:I wish people understood that the harder I work, the luckier, I get, you make your own luck. You know, you see these people and you're like, wow, that guy just blew up on TikTok or, you know, Twitch or on Spotify or apple music. Sometimes that happens not very often.And it usually it's a lot of hard work, you know? I asked an ANR person before the. You know, how do you choose who you signed to your label today with all of this data? And he said the same way. I always do. I look for that line up around the block for people to see him play, right? So it's, it's a new music business and we can now see with all this data what's going on.But I think the common misconception is there's a similar. There isn't a silver bullet, you know, it's, it's a lot of hard work and it's a lot of finding your tribe. And I say that a lot because you need to find your audience. I talk to people all the time about finding that audience and they think they know who their audience is.If you talk to any manager, artists, they, they they'll have a sense. Like, well, my demo, my artists or my, my fan base, I mean is 25 year old. But there are three audiences, right? There's one sales streams and downloads. So the commerce side to the butts in the seats. So when you're touring, who's actually out in the crowd, right.And then three, you know, kind of the social side of it. Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, those three audiences, rarely aligned completely. And there's always something to learn. I was talking to an artist recently who thought that. Their crowd was 25 year old, females, because that's who they saw in the crowd.But if you look at the other data, that's not who's quote unquote consuming their music. So there are a lot of misconceptions, but, I heard this really great line about data and analytics. It's like a lamppost. You can use it to aluminate or you can use it to lean on. And most people use it to lean on, like, see, I told you that's, that's what I thought my data is.But really, if you go in and look at all this, analytics, you'll find that there's always something you can learn in there about your audience and how to reach your audience.[00:17:57] Nathan:I like that because I catch myself doing that of like, Let me go dig for the data that proves the point thatI already my existing worldview and that they were having that debate. Yeah. See, this is what proves it. And you can go back and, and[00:18:14] Jay:Right[00:18:15] Nathan:The data say almost whatever you want.If you come at it with that[00:18:18] Jay:Yeah, absolutely. And today there's so many great places to find data like real great data. Like for example, you know, it used to be called SoundScan right now. It's called MRC connect. Same thing. You can get real numbers for sales, streams, and downloads. That is so helpful. And you can see data from previous releases and kind of get a sense of that.There are these great platforms like chart, metric and vibrate and sound charts, where you can go in and see what playlist was I added to which ones, where I dropped off of what position was I in? How many times was it skipped? You know, there's so many great data platforms out there, but it's almost like there's too much, you know, you need to kind of focus on what, what do you want to do?You know, some people want to route a tour, So that's really easy. You can kind of see what markets you're over-performing in. You can download data from Pollstar and see if you played in those markets before, you know, how did you perform? So we're really big on data, but you kind of have to look at it carefully and decide what you're trying to learn from it.If that makes sense.[00:19:30] Nathan:How do you think about the intersection, between the different platforms? Like, if you're actually say we're promoting it to her or, a new album release or something like that, what are you recommending as far as where artists build, you know, build their audience. and then, yeah. How do you think about the intersection when it actually comes time to drive?[00:19:49] Jay:Yeah. And that's, that's a great question because it's so different for every artist in every release, right? So you kind of have to look where, where is my. You know, they may, maybe they're still buying physical. Maybe you're a jazz artist and that's a, still a, an album format. So you want to look at Amazon.You want to look at places, indie retail, where people are buying the full album and they want to experience that way. then you look at maybe EDM or country, every kind of genre and mood has its own nuances. I think it's really important to find out who your audience is, what their behaviors are. And then a real simple thing is when it comes to social media, so many artists today, they have so many choices and it's not just writing and recording and touring.Now they got a post on socials and create videos and comment. I mean, it's so much, so what we tell people is take a step back. What are you killing? Yeah, right. And a lot of them it's Instagram, right? Some of them it's TikTok focus on that. You don't have to be all things to all people, you know, find out where that crowd is, where your audience is and really work that, and then kind of grow it from there.And hopefully you'll get to a point, like we were talking about Lizzo, where you have a team surrounding you that can attack all those different platforms.[00:21:16] Nathan:Yeah, think there's a tendency. I see this in founders and entrepreneurs and marketers, like all across the board. I've, we're so used to failing at things like trying things and failing. They like tried this didn't work and in order to continue to be a founder or a marketer and you have to try the next thing tried that didn't work tried that didn't work, this, it worked.[00:21:38] Jay:Yeah[00:21:39] Nathan:So then I tried this and it didn't work and this, and it didn't work. And you're like, hold on. But what about the thing that did work and, you know, we move on so quickly and we see like every case study of[00:21:49] Jay:Yeah. And it's so different per artists. So the thing that you just described as spot on, but let's say we did that for Ben Barnes. Well, our next artist, we got to start from scratch because the things that worked for Ben probably aren't going to work for Travis Tritt. There they're totally different animals.So I love trying things. I love trying new platforms and, you know, there are a handful of things that really work across everything. And so you kind of start with those in your marketing plan, like. Tools is bands in town. Now everybody knows bands in town. It's got like 55 million people have this app on their phone and it says, Hey, Nathan, you know, the accidentals are coming to your town in a couple of weeks and you're like, oh cool.And then you can buy your ticket and stuff. They look at your music library, but what a lot of people don't know is that you can go in there and look at how many people are attracting. Right. And usually it's thousands. You know, you look at these artists, they don't even know they have thousands of trackers and bands in town.Well, you can reach out to them for free and say, Hey, I've got a new release coming out. or I'm going to be in a, there's a tour and I'm going to be in your area. But what's really exciting about bands in town is that I can look at like competitive artists fan bases. So if I know that my artists. You know, then maybe there, they would appeal to the Chainsmokers crowd.I, for 5 cents an email, I can target them and say, Hey, you guys dig the chain smokers. You, you might dig this too. So there are a lot of little platforms like that, like you were talking about, which is so important. You got to try. All the time. And you know, as Paul Stanley said, the road to success, isn't from here to success.It's failure, failure, failure, failure, success.[00:23:37] Nathan:Yeah, for sure. Are there any trends going on in the music industry now that concern you things where like, as, as you've watched it develop, you're like, I'm not sure where this is headed and I'm not sure that it's going to be good for the artists. Good for the fans and any of those things.[00:23:51] Jay:Not a lot. I think it's, it's changed while we've been having this conversation. The music business is evolving so quickly and you know, I do a weekly podcast and newsletter for the music industry and we break down the stories every week and it's so fascinating to me. How quickly it's evolving. And, you know, for example, you see companies like hypnosis and primary wave and BMG buying up all of these rights.And you're wondering like, well, they're paying these huge multiples what's going on here. And some of these heritage artists are getting hundreds of millions of dollars. And then in the last couple of weeks, you've really seen these stories about interpolation. Coming out, meaning that instead of using a sample, they're just using the melody of a Olivia Newton, John or Taylor swift song in a new song.And it, no one's getting sued because they're crediting the writers and they're paying the publishing and you may find two or three interpolations in one song. Olivia Rodriguez recently, there's so many. Of these things that are evolving so quickly, TikTok, it just blows my mind sometimes how fast you can gain an audience there, but it's one of the hardest platforms to gain real engagement.So you can gain those numbers, but how do you hold onto them? It reminds me of some of these artists that are on these talent shows, you know, American idol, the voice America's got talent, whatever you got to grab that audience. Once they're off that show, you have to engage them quickly or it's gone. cause you'll have huge numbers from being on those shows.But if you don't engage with that crowd and keep them interested in, you'll still have those big numbers of YouTube subscribers and followers. But the engagement just drops right off the cliff. So as far as the trends that concern me, I think the biggest thing we touched on, you know, people who try to buy likes, follows spins.I just, I think that's horrible and it's so dangerous for their career. we always tell people. We manage 20 careers. you're, you're managing one yours. You need to take that really seriously. And, we, we advise against trying to game the system. I have a friend of mine who's really big in SEO search engine optimization and, he's very good at it.And he always tells me. These people come to me and they've messed with their website, for example, to get it to come up in search. And he laughs and he says, look, Google's got, Google has like 200 highly trained engineers working on this stuff. And you think you're going to trick them with your little, you know, metadata trick, you know, maybe for 10 minutes, but it's always best to have a plan, have a marketing plan.Optimize for everything. you do that and avoid some of these pitfalls. Yeah. Those are the things that concerned me. It's just people trying to, find a shortcut.[00:26:58] Nathan:Yeah, that makes sense. you dropped a bunch of things in there that I, I want to talk about and dive into, but maybe starting with the music back catalogs that are being purchased, those rights, I'm always super curious about things like that, because. You know, as a creator, you're working on things that feel like they're in the moment.And I have a few friends who are successful authors who are pretty prolific, like they'll write a book year, a book every other year. one friend said like, basically like putting out annuities where you have this, this thing and add you as you add to your catalog. It just. Let's say this book is going to sell $50,000 worth copies its long tail every year.Like clockwork, time you come out with a new one, it adds that there's another 50,000 a year, plus it gives it a little bump. And so you see creators who are these big spikes, and then that's kind of it. You also see creators who are continually adding to the back.[00:27:54] Jay:Yeah.[00:27:55] Nathan:Like explain more for anyone who doesn't understand on the music side, why these catalogs are so valuable and why, you know, people are paying[00:28:04] Jay:Yeah.[00:28:04] Nathan:Of millions, hundreds of[00:28:05] Jay:Yeah Well, it's just math at this point. What's happened is with streaming. Now there's some predictable. There's some planning involved. So if you have a catalog, you know, you look at like Stevie Nicks sold hers, or at least a big portion of it. And Bob Dylan, there's a predictability now that there wasn't before on how much revenue that's going to generate on, on two sides, one the publishing, right?For the, for the songwriters and then the master, you know, so with that predictability comes, some of them are just banging. You know, they come in there and they say, okay, this catalog is worth this much money. And this is how much it makes over a year. Let's say it makes a hundred thousand dollars a year.Well, we're going to pay you for 10 years or 20 years worth and cut you a check right now. So we call those multiples and some of these companies are paying super high multiples and almost jacking up the price. It's kind of a land grab in some respects. So. It really doesn't help a new developing artist a lot right now.But if you've co-written songs with people and you've got music out there, There, there is money to be had there. If you want that big payoff, some people are selling off their publishing. Some people are selling it off for a term. Some people are selling their masters off and it makes sense for somebody let's say Stevie Nicks, cause she's in her seventies.Now it's a state planning and she can, you know, get all of that money and help her family and whatever. So I'm not necessarily against. At all. but what I really love is watching how these companies are now going to exploit that catalog. And I mean that in the best possible way, exploited, how are they going to generate the right revenue?And that interpolations that I talked about a minute ago. That is one way, you know, there was a story last week, and they talked about primary wave having, you know, these writer's camp. And using their top 40 or 50 tracks that they have the rights to, and having these writers write songs surrounding those melodies.And again, those writers will be credited those writers and the publishers and all of that, but that's kind of the new trend too. So yeah[00:30:35] Nathan:Yeah that's fascinating. it'll be interesting to see how it keeps developing Another thing that you talked about a little bit is, uh your newsletter, which I want to get into, what, like so many people consume content, what was the thing that made you switch and say Hey, I want to be to be one of the, people on the creator side, commenting on the industry and building an audience[00:30:58] Jay:Yeah[00:30:58] Nathan:That's like, it feels like you've been more of a behind the scenes guy for a long time. And now there's a little bit of at least you're going to be a front of house for all the behind the scenes people.[00:31:11] Jay:Yeah, no, that's, that's a good point. I think what happened was I had left Warner music group and I was deciding do I want to start my own company. Do I want to go back working for a major? And I got this email from Sean Rakowski who used to be the head of sales for ADA. And all it was was about a dozen of.These songs and albums that he had found that were really good. And he was sharing it with a hundred people. So I called him up and I said, this is cool, but you know, why are you doing this? And he said, well, I'm kind of between jobs. I don't know where I'm going to go right now. And I just don't want people to forget me and the light bulb went on and I went, I'm going to do that.So I did something you're not supposed to do. And that is, I created an email and just basically sent it to a couple hundred people in my. my contacts, you're typically supposed to ask for permission, but I just decided, you know what, I'm just going to do this and what do I love Well I love music and technology.So I'll just do a recap, every week and what I knew at the time. was that People don't like to read. I love reading stories on technology and music, but not everybody does, but they want to know what's going on. So I put an image and then just a two, to three sentence blurb. So even if you don't read those top dozen stories in your morning coffee, you can read that little blurb and go, oh, okay.Well, this is going on. You know, here's some changes that here's some platforms that are coming up. This is what's going on with the music modernization act or NFTs or whatever. And. All of a sudden. It started to grow. And that little newsletter to a couple hundred people is now over 15,000 people and we have advertisers and now we have a weekly podcast, we've been doing for a year where we break down the stories.So I didn't have this grand plan of, I'm going to create this newsletter for the industry. And no, I just didn't want people to forget me while I was deciding. What my next career path was going to be, and it was a happy accident. I just stumbled into it. And then next thing you know, some of my favorite artists subscribed to it.Some of my favorite managers subscribed to it and they'll send me notes. What do you think about this? And then. The last thing I'll say on it is it wasn't intended for business. It wasn't intended for me to make money from, but what's happened is people will read your morning coffee and then they'll call me up and they'll go.I think I need to hire Label Logic to be my label infrastructure for this. And so it's brought us business, but that, wasn't what it was intended for originally.[00:33:43] Nathan:Yeah, it's fascinating how that worked. Cause you, you position yourself as the expert, the person with the pulse on the industry I mean, it's not even like a deliberate thing. You don't have to say that you just. Are the[00:33:56] Jay:Cool[00:33:57] Nathan:Sent, like sending out the content and people are like great, thanks for doing that.So I didn't have to go compile it from different sources. And, and you find that you have your own platform.[00:34:07] Jay:Yeah[00:34:07] Nathan:Some, what are some of the things that worked as far as, growing it, maybe deliberate things that you put in, beyond the, organic growth and sharing[00:34:17] Jay:Yeah, I think that, the thing that really helped us is really like, if you're a wedding photographer or a real estate agent, all of your business practically is word of mouth. And a lot of the growth that we have for your morning coffee comes from people just getting it, and forwarding it to their staff, you know, I'm saying, Hey, have you seen this?And that's where we've seen that growth.I think the things that I did that really. helped Keeping it to those blurbs and not trying and having that image. People are very visual. I've seen other newsletters that are just a mountain of text.[00:34:53] Nathan:Yeah[00:34:53] Jay:Not many people are going to dig through that. So I wanted to make it.Very accessible to somebody who's really busy at an airport. They can just look at it on their device and and get a sense of what's going on. The other thing that, again, by accident, I started reaching out to some of these writers, like you had mentioned earlier, speaking with Sherry who, I reached out to Sherry, you know, I've had her on the podcast, we've had conversations.I have a great deal of respect for her in her writing people like, You know, Amber horsepower. I mentioned, Glen peoples, Bobby O Sinskey, you know, Bruce Hoten over at Hypebot. After a while I started developing these conversations in relationships and I would be on their Podcast. They would be on mine.I would write articles for Hypebot Hypebot would promote your morning coffee of the newsletter, a very symbiotic kind of relationship with all of these writers. And the level of debate and the level of communication has just enriched my life. Having these conversations with people, you know, like Amber and Glen peoples and saying, well, what do you think of this?I dunno, what do you think of this? You know, for example, I, I met this really smart young marketer, Maddie Elise, who runs her own company and she was doing some really great analysis on bots and spin farms. Like how can you tell if you've been bonded and we got into these conversations and she posted some really great articles online.I put them in your morning coffee. It's been a wild ride, but it's, it was unexpected that I would have these conversations.[00:36:36] Nathan:Well, It's amazing how Yeah. Like in any industry, Like working in sales, the music industry has all connections and relationships.[00:36:45] Jay:Yes[00:36:46] Nathan:Could spend forever people one on one Hey I'm I'm coming to your city I'm in LA I'm in Nashville I'm in Atlanta Like now we're in a you know like trying to get one connection into the next and coffee and everything else to try to build up that now. Or you can kind of take take a step back and say, all just going to start a newsletter and then get like, thousands and then people that follow it. And then[00:37:10] Jay:Yeah[00:37:11] Nathan:You would like really slowly be like working up relationships to get to the point that you've talked to is like oh, Hey, I wrote this thing.Would you mind throwing it in the newsletter And like,[00:37:22] Jay:Yeah[00:37:23] Nathan:Also come on on my podcast, let's chat. And it's just this shortcut to relationships and amazing.[00:37:27] Jay:Yes, absolutely. And I'm a big fan of networking, music business association conference, one of the best on the planet. You know, you go there. The, the great meetings are the ones, while you're waiting in line at Starbucks, you know, you meet all of these people. And it's then like at the last music business association conference, I was standing in line talking to some publicists.Well, publicists are so great because they're on the pulse of everything. There are people like, you know, over at shore fire or the great team at rock paper, scissors who matches technology and music in their publicity campaign. And now they're sending things to me. Hey, have you heard about this new platform?Hey, you might want to interview this person because they've got this new thing. And so it, it becomes this thing, but you had mentioned like sitting down and having coffee with people. That's what I did with Amber Horsburgh I've. I read some of her deep cuts, things that she has online. She has done marketing at a high level.My partner, Jeff and I have done marketing at a high level. We called her up, met at the one-on-one coffee shop and just had an amazing.Chat, as you know, when you sit down with somebody who's enthusiastic about the same things you are, whether it's music, sports, whatever, you can talk all day. Right. And I love meeting these people and that's kind of how, like the, your morning coffee Podcast.My, my cohost is Mike Etchart, who did sound envisioned radio. He and I can sit and talk for hours about. This, these stories. So every week we do the podcast, we record it Sunday morning at nine 30 and it goes live on Mondays. We talk for a half hour to an hour before we hit record. We just sit there and, oh my gosh.Did you see that documentary on 1971? No. Hey, have you heard that new record by, you know, Ben Barnes, whatever it is. And because we have such a passion for it. And I think that comes out in the newsletter. It's not a dry kind of thing. and the last thing I'll say on that is the other side, these relationships I've developed are like with attorneys who write stories.There's this one guy, Chris castle, who has a website called music technology policy. And I. You know, put some of his great articles in your morning coffee, cause they're really smart ass, you know, sassy stuff and had him on the podcast. And now I'll call him up from time to time, you know, like what do you think of this?And it's just, this whole kind of network is it's really.[00:40:02] Nathan:Yeah, that's amazing. Is there a favorite moment or something like that, where, uh or opportunity that the newsletter has created for you? Like, we talked about a lot of connections and stuff like that, but one where, you know, you're like, Oh wow, this is, this is a fantastic opportunity that wouldn't have come.If I hadn't built it.[00:40:20] Jay:Oh my gosh, so many of them, but I'll tell you, at a high level, getting to speak to people that I admire respect that that's thrilling. But one great example recently was for our one-year anniversary of the, your morning coffee Podcast. we had Nancy Wilson from heart on and did an hour long interview with her.Now I grew up in. I grew up on heart, Nancy and I shopped at the same record stores. I saw them play live many, many times, huge fan. so that was pretty cool and knowing her as well as I do her career, her music, all of that. Mike and I had an amazing, interview with her and that's something that we just wouldn't have had, without this via.[00:41:10] Nathan:Yeah, that, that kind of thing is so fun of like, almost getting to have a conversation, you know, as peers and all of that with someone that you're like[00:41:21] Jay:Yeah.[00:41:22] Nathan:However many years ago would be freaking out Right. now[00:41:25] Jay:Right. I was in the, I was in the crowd, right. Cheering along, and now we're having a conversation about things and that's probably the most thrilling part of your morning coffee. The newsletter and Podcast is the level of debate. The level of people that will call me and say, I disagreed with that piece.Or I'd like to write an op ed or, you know, Th that's pretty thrilling because look like we said, this music industry's changed while we've been on this call. So if you want to keep up with it, you can follow some of these great, writers. And, you know, you mentioned Sherry who, you know her, I subscribed to her Patrion.I love the research that she does. And I've learned so much from that. But if you don't want to read everything by all of these marketers, then there are. Vehicles like your morning coffee, where you get it for free every Friday, you just glance at it and get a sense of what's going on. And then if there's, there's something that really interests you, you click on it and you can read deeper.[00:42:28] Nathan:Yeah. Yep. I like that. Um what are some of the things that you're looking to do next for your morning coffee of how to, how to grow it further? What's sort of the milestone.[00:42:37] Jay:Yeah, we're I really want to grow it. and we're looking at, you know, networks that we could be a part of. we've got advertisers now, which is nice. you know, we're not going to get rich from it, but it's nice that we have, and we can pick and choose, you know, who those advertisers are. We're not going to advertise for baked beans.We have some really great digital music sponsors my goal. Two things. One, I really want to grow the audience. I'm thrilled with the growth that we've had. and the quality cause I use MailChimp. So I can go in there just like constant contact or any of these other great platforms. And I can see who's who's subscribing which ones they opening, you know, what are they clicking through?What device are they on? And I love it when people who I admire and respect are. And I want to grow that as well. So grow it, grow the quality of it and, you know, just continue to build that audience.[00:43:39] Nathan:Are there specific activities that you're thinking of to grow it where you're like, oh, this was working. So I'm going to do more of that, whether it's ads or promotions or, any of those things[00:43:49] Jay:Yeah, I, it sounds pedantic, but we always say you do more of what's working and less of what doesn't And I know that sounds silly, but we do that with every platform. You look at YouTube or you look at your socials and go, wow, that post really over-performed, Well do more of things like that. And I'm looking at like with your morning coffee, there are certain articles that I just know are going to get high clicks.People love lists. You know, here are the seven things that Nathan thinks you should do. People love bullet point lists, but I try not to, do the cheap applause thing, I could do the whole thing full of that, but there also has to be something in there for you to eat your vegetables.There has to be a little bit of analysis. You know, the one that comes out tomorrow, there's a breakdown of, you know, the first half of the year versus the first half of last year. Not everybody wants to dig into the data like that. So I try to make. it You know, balanced that way. the other thing I'd like to do is partner with.Other people, for example, one of the reasons I have such a high, you know, viewership is the folks over at Hypebot every week they put my newsletter and Podcast in their newsletter that goes out to a lot of people. so they're, a great partner for us. We love, we love HighSpot, but if I can get more people, you know, you're standing on the shoulders of giants, so to speak, I would love to have, the.Orchard Ingrooves ADA, you know, Warner music group, Group use your morning coffee and send that out to their artists, labels, and managers, that sort of thing. That would be the next step.[00:45:33] Nathan:Yeah, that. makes sense. like those partnerships end up being so big. And I've seen that with a lot of newsletters where they're doing cross-promotions or they're saying,[00:45:42] Jay:Yeah.[00:45:43] Nathan:Hey do a takeover Where, like,[00:45:47] Jay:Right.[00:45:48] Nathan:You know, Jay's writing the entire newsletter for us this week. If you want to follow more of what he does, you know, and you need to this newsletter swap or a bunch of things.[00:45:57] Jay:Yeah, those takeovers are really important. I did one last week with symphonic distribution, I did a little Instagram takeover and immediately had, hundreds of new subscribers to the newsletter. we always tell people there's two reasons why nobody is buying or streaming your new release.One is they've never heard. of you Two they've heard of you, but they didn't know it was out. Those are two things that you can correct with proper marketing, touring advertising, those types of things. And it's the same with the newsletter is I need to get it in front of people because, every week I get a note from somebody like, oh, I just discovered your podcast, or I just discovered your, newsletter.You know, and I don't have big budgets to advertise, you know, put it in billboard magazine or, whatever. but that's my goal.[00:46:54] Nathan:Yeah I like it. some of my favorite podcasts interviews are Witten. The host starts asking really selfish questions like[00:47:02] Jay:Okay[00:47:03] Nathan:Direct advice that they want. So I'm going to do that now. So uh ConvertKit right So we're creating a marketing platform, email marketing platform for creators where Uh like quick context We're 70 people on the team[00:47:19] Jay:Wow[00:47:19] Nathan:Year in revenue, in like mostly in the blogger podcast or newsletter space, but then the last year has been this push into, into music. So we've got a whole range of artists from Leon bridges to Tim McGraw. we bought, a platform called fan bridge, at the beginning of this year, but we're like new to the spaceAnd so coming in. What advice would you give either to, you know, ConvertKit or to any of these, you know, I'm sure there's plenty of other players who are, trying to come into the music industry, really serve artists, be good citizens of the community. Like what advice would you give as far as how to grow, How to get more artists on the platform and[00:48:02] Jay:That's a great question. I think the first thing you do is you collaborate and we tell people all the time, if, when we're taking an artist in to meet with a digital service provider or a platform you listen first and you say, How can we partner? How can we collaborate? Not what can you do for me? So some of the obvious things, right, would be, the music business association, right?Portion, her team over there are phenomenal. You have conversations with them, you sponsor their events, you get involved in their live streams and that community. Right. I think that's, that's kind of where you start, as you become. A partner, you know, you collaborate, people who, all these people that you mentioned that have these great, you know, newsletters, whether it's, you know, Sherry who, or Amber Horsburgh or, you know, Bobby, Osinski, all of these things.You, you reach out to them as you're doing you partner with them, you see, like, how can we collaborate together? How can we work together? How can I help you to grow your audience? And once you become. Part of that network, part of that community. Let me back up. my old boss used to tell me, everybody wants to give you advice.Nobody wants to give you a job. So when you go to somebody, don't ask them for something, right? And this isn't directed at you. This is at the larger audience. Don't go in and say, Hey, I need this. Can you do this? For me? People are busy, right? They've got a thousand emails that they're, they need to respond to.But if you ask somebody for their advice, they're like, well, hold on a second. What was that? You need my advice. I'll give you my advice. I found, and I speak at colleges all the time and I mentor and I have interns. And one of the things I tell college students all the time is find someone who's doing what you want to do.Whether it's be an engineer, producer, tour, agent, whatever, find the people that are doing it, reach out to them and say, Hey Nathan, I'm a college student. Can I just get 15 minutes of your time? Chat. I need your guidance. I need your advice on something nine times out of 10, they'll say. Sure, absolutely. And that's at your fingertips right now.And as a company and as a platform, you need to let this community know what problems of theirs are you going to. You know, not your capabilities, not like the business speak while we're a full service platform that, you know, these KPIs and blah, blah, blah. No, it's gotta be, we're going to help you grow your audience by doing this, we're gonna help you, spend less money on your marketing and advertising by doing this, we're going to help you put more butts in the seats by doing this.If you can solve their problems and communicate that. quickly and easily, that's a challenge. but joining all of these, like, like music business association, You know, and going to these panels, like at music tectonics and some of those, that's where those people live and breathe. And, and let me just tie it up in a bow by saying that one of the things we did over the pandemic was we formed this artist management collective and there's, I don't know, give or take 25 managers and on any given zoom call, we'll have probably half of that.We, we talk about what, what publicist are you using now? What video editor are using now, you know, do you use it? Who, who should I call for a tour agent for Americana, you know, and we, we help each other, but we also will bring somebody on from TikTok or bring somebody on from roadblocks and tell us about your platform.You know, w how can you help these artists managers? So that's a long-winded way of saying there's no silver bullet, but. Those relationships, those, those conversations, then that word of mouth will spread and that'll help you build your platform.[00:52:06] Nathan:Yeah Well, I mean, it's exactly what we've been talking about of relationships in the community That's what all of this comes down to and and you know podcasts are especially big for that right Because we have to have conversations like this, and that's what you've seen on, on your Podcast.[00:52:24] Jay:Yeah[00:52:24] Nathan:Makes me wonder, do you think If you're talking to a newsletter creator?Who doesn't have a Podcast. What's the, message that you would say to them of, you know, you're like, Yeah. the Podcast has been good because of these things. Or are you like, what are you doing? Like start[00:52:43] Jay:Yeah[00:52:44] Nathan:Newsletter, go hand in hand. He got us started both. What, what do you think?[00:52:47] Jay:It depends. I think here's the thing. I was reading this article the other day, that the average Podcast, this is average, right? There's 850,000 podcasts out there, but the average one is seven episodes long. That's it. And reaches about 175. people That's an average thing. I mean, yeah. You've got the New York times daily that has a staff of 75 people and it's crazy.And then you've got the Joe Rogans of the world that have these huge audiences, but that's the outlier. That's an anomaly. So I tell people are you really in this? Do you really want to do this? And do you enjoy doing it? So I do, two to three podcasts. every week And I love it. I absolutely love the conversations.It's something. I have a passion for most of the newsletters that I read. There is a Podcast, you know, Sherry who has a podcast, Amber Horsburgh has a podcast. Mike Warner, has a great podcast. Then you look at how often do you want to do it? You know, like your morning coffee is every single week music biz, weekly that I co-host is every single week.You may not have the time to do that. So maybe you do one every two weeks or one every month. I'm a big fan of podcasts. I think that people go for walks, they exercise, they travel, they commute. They do a lot of things where they couldn't necessarily read a newsletter. And this is kind of, you're reading the newsletter to them.So it's so easy to get syndicated. But the only thing I would suggest for somebody who's going to start that is stand on the shoulders of giants with us. We partnered with Hypebot So immediately out of the gate, we've got an audience. We didn't have to start from zero So if you can partner with a brand or partner with another outlet to grow your audience, that's the way to go.[00:54:44] Nathan:Yeah. Yep. I like that. Some of that you said to kind of touched on the idea of longevity, you know, of the average Podcast being seven episodes long. sad, but not surprising, like[00:54:56] Jay:Yeah,[00:54:57] Nathan:What's your message to, creators about longevity. And it's both the artists you're working with, you're giving advice to those college students who hit you up for the 15 minutes of advice all the way through to those building an audience online, in a newsletter type environment[00:55:14] Jay:Yeah. That's a great question. I think the bottom line is you need to find what lights you. up And I tell, not just college students, but I tell professionals this all the time. What is that thing that you wake up in the morning and you just can't wait to do, and you'd do it for free. If you could, is it photography?Is it, it engineering or being a, you know, a manager, whatever it is. There's some There're things that are Personal to you that you love to do. And I always tell people, you have to do more of that. The money will come, but you have to add value first and then the money comes. You don't go looking for the money.That's a common mistake. A lot of people make, I I started your morning coffee without any expectation of any business, money, ads, anything, and it's just been a joy. And I look forward to doing. it Every single week, I've got it, like 90% ready to go. Cause it goes out at 4:00 AM on Friday. So tomorrow, I'll be up with my coffee and I'll hit that.Send button to those lists. that's not work to me. That's I can't wait to do that. And then Sunday morning, Mike Etchart and I are going to record the podcast. I can't wait to do that. So if you can find something in your jobI love coaching. I love teaching. I love working with developing artists and showing them what's worked in the past what hasn't workedand to your point earlier, trying a lot of different things See, see what's working. and What's not, you know, I think that's key because so many people are chasing the dollars and they're miserable. You know, find what lights you up.[00:56:53] Nathan:Yeah, cause chasing the dollars, especially cause they tend to take a long time to come. Any creative business is slow going. So, if you're looking at the dollars as the metric that's going to keep you going, then you are going to end up giving up after the seven episodes.[00:57:12] Jay:Yeah.[00:57:13] Nathan:Something in that[00:57:15] Jay:Yeah.[00:57:16] Nathan:I realized, we should start to wrap up, but I didn't even ask you about photography. That's a huge part of who you are as a creator. We don't have time to get into it a lot, but I just love to hear how photography intersects with the rest of your creative work.[00:57:31] Jay:I've been shooting since I was a teenager. What happened was I went to a concert. I shot it and the images didn't turn out well at all. And that put me on this quest of “Why don't my photos look like the ones in the magazine?”[00:57:45] Nathan:Yeah.[00:57:46] Jay:I got my own darkroom, started reading books. Long story short, I've been doing photography my entire life. I have a photo studio here. I've shot album covers from the Temptations, and John Wayne, and Rick Springfield, and many, many others. I absolutely love it. It's my creative outlet. I can go in on the weekends, shut the door, turn off the phone.My partner, Chris Schmidt and I, we do these shoots and we absolutely love it. It's also intersected with the business. So, photo shoots for clients. We've done videos for clients. It's a labor of love. It's like you find what lights you up. Photography lights me up. I would do it for free if I could.I absolutely love shooting live shows. I love shooting studio shoots. If you check out JayGilbert.net, you can see some of my work over the years. You'll see photos from shooting Van Halen in 1978, all the way to shooting stuff last week with the immediate family.So, thank you for bringing that up. I certainly have a passion for it, and I hope that your viewers and listeners know what their passion is. Even if they can't do it for a living, continue to do it. Life is short.[00:58:59] Nathan:Yeah, I love it. Well, I had a great time going through your whole collection over the years.[00:59:06] Jay:Thank you.[00:59:07] Nathan:There's some that are really, really fun.[00:59:10] Jay:Thank you.[00:59:11] Nathan:Listeners should definitely check that out. Where else should people go to subscribe to the newsletter? Listen to the podcast? All of that?[00:59:17] Jay:It's the easiest URL on the planet. It's YourMorning.coffee. You can sign up for the newsletter. It's free. You can sign up for the podcast. It's free. If you ever want to dig deeper into what Label Logic's all about, it's Label-Logic.net. It might be kind of fun just to look through there.Jeff and I have been doing this for decades, so you'll see some of your favorite artists that we've done some campaigns with.[00:59:48] Nathan:Yeah that's good.Well Jay, thanks so much.[00:59:51] Jay:Yeah, it's my pleasure, Nathan. Thanks for having me.

Dave Pell has been writing online for almost as long as the internet has existed. His popular newsletter, NextDraft, has over 140,000 subscribers. NextDraft covers the day's ten most fascinating news stories, delivered with a fast and pithy wit.Dave has been a syndicated writer on NPR, Gizmodo, Forbes, and Huffington Post. He earned his bachelor's degree in English from U.C. Berkeley, and his master's in education from Harvard.Besides being a prolific writer, Dave is also the Managing Partner at Arba, LLC. For more than a decade, Arba has been angel investing in companies like Open Table, GrubHub, Marin Software, Hotel Tonight, Joyus, and Liftopia.In this episode, you'll learn: How Dave merged his two writing passions into a successful product The key to building a strong relationship with your audience How Dave dramatically increased signups to NextDraft Links & Resources Flicker Unsplash Fareed Zakaria Jim Rome The Skimm Morning Brew The Hustle Spark Loop Sam Spratt Dave Pell's Links Dave Pell on Twitter NextDraft newsletter Dave's new book: Please Scream Inside Your Heart NextDraft app PleaseScream.com Episode Transcript[00:00:00] Dave:If you have something to say in one way or another, the internet is a great place for people to figure out a way to receive it. So, that's pretty powerful and still excites me. I still press publish with the same enthusiasm now than I did when the internet first launched.[00:00:23] Nathan:In this episode I talk to Dave Pell, who has been writing for basically as long as the internet has been around. He's been an investor since the early days. He's been writing since the.com bust, and even before then. He writes his popular newsletter with 140,000 subscribers called Next Draft.We have this really fun conversation about writing. His writing process. How he grew the newsletter. Bunch of other things that he cares about. Even a few things that I was interested in, like he doesn't have his face in photos on the internet very much. He has his avatar instead. So, just getting into why that is.He also has a book coming out soon. It's called Scream Inside Your Heart, which is a fun reference to some memes from 2020. So, enjoy the episode. There's a lot in there.Dave. Welcome to the show.[00:01:12] Dave:Thanks a lot for having me on.[00:01:14] Nathan:Okay. So you've been doing this for a long time. You've been writing on the internet since the .com era. So, I'm curious maybe just to kick things off, what have you seen—I realize this is a giant question.What have you seen change? What are some of those trends that you've seen, that you either really miss from the early days, or some of those things that you've held onto from the early days of the internet, that you're really still enjoying?[00:01:46] Dave:Yeah, that is a pretty huge question, but I'll give it a shot. The thing I miss from the early days of the internet is that our democracy was not being destroyed by the internet in the early days of the internet. So, everything we thought we were building, basically it turned out to be the opposite of what actually happened.The part about the internet that I still feel is there, although a little bit less so because of the big companies have sort of taken over all the platforms and stuff, is just the idea that someone can have a passion or a creative output that they want to share with the world, and they can mold internet tools to fit their skills, and then use the internet to broadcast that out, and still become sort of pretty popular withour the “OK” of some gatekeeper at a publication, or at a television studio, or whatever.The indie spirit of the internet still lives on. It ebbs and flows, and has a lot of different iterations. But that was the thing that excited me the most when I first played with the internet. And that's the thing that continues to excite me the most now.[00:02:57] Nathan:I always think of the newsletter, and your newsletter in particular, is that indie spirit. Is that what you see most commonly in newsletters? Or are you seeing it in other places as well?[00:03:10] Dave:I see it in podcasts. I see it in newsletters. I see it in people sharing their art, sharing their photography on Flicker, and up through the more modern tools. I go to a site called Unsplash all the time to look at images, and it's just basically regular people sharing their images.Some of them are professional photographers, some aren't, and they're getting their work out there, and then some of them probably get jobs out of it and stuff like that. So, just the idea that you can have some kind of creative output and have a place to share it. And try to get an audience for that is really inspiring.It's a lot harder than it used to be because there's a few billion more people trying to get attention also, and because there are more gatekeepers now. So, you have to, hope that your app meets Apple's guidelines, or that different products you might want to share on the internet have to meet certain classifications now, whereas they might not have in the very early days of the internet. But in general, if you have something to say in one way or another, the internet is a great place for people to figure out a way to receive it.So, that's pretty powerful, and, still excites me. I still press published with the same enthusiasm now that I did when the internet first launched.[00:04:32] Nathan:Yeah. So let's talk about the main project that you have right now, which is Next Draft. Give listeners the 30-second pitch on Next Draft, of what it is.[00:04:46] Dave:Sure. Basically I call myself the managing editor of the internet. What I basically do is a personality-driven news newsletter where I cover the day's most fascinating news. I cover 10 stories. A lot of times in each section there's more than one link. I give my take on the day's news, each individual story, and then I link off to the source for the full story.When I first launched it, I called it Dinner Party Prep. I provided enough information for you to sort of get the gist of the story. And if there's topics you want to dig deeper, you just click and, you know, go get the story yourself. So that's sort of the overview of it.[00:05:27] Nathan:Nice. And you said that you're obsessed with the news maybe in a somewhat, even unhealthy way. why, where did that come from?[00:05:36] Dave:Yeah. Well, nothing, nothing about my relationship with the internet is only somewhat unhealthy. it's all extremely unhealthy, but, both my parents are Holocaust survivors and, when I was growing up, news was just a very big part of our daily lives, especially when my three older sisters moved out and it was just the three of us, that was sort of our mode of communication.We talked about the news. We watched the news together. Fareed Zakaria is basically the sun my parents always wanted. but so I got really into the news and being able to connect the news to, our everyday lives, which of course my parents had experienced as children and teens and Europe during world war II.And also reading between the lines about why certain politicians might be saying something, why stories are getting published a certain way. So I just got really into that and I've always been into a and college, you know, I, I majored in English, but if we had minors at Berkeley, I would have minored in journalism.I took a bunch of journalism courses. I've always been really into the media, but not so much as quite an insider where I go to work for a newspaper, but more observing, the news and providing sort of a lit review of what's happening and what has momentum in the news. So I sorta got addicted to it and, Also as a writer.My favorite thing to do is counter punch. I like to have somebody give me a topic and then I like to be able to quickly share my take, or make a joke or create a funny headline about that content. So I sorta took those two passions of the way I like to write. I like to write on deadline. I like to write fast and I like to counter punch and the content that I like, which is news, and I sort of merged those two things and created a product, and a pretty cool suite of internet tools to support that.[00:07:35] Nathan:Yeah. So that makes sense that you've identified the constraints that match your style and made something exactly that fits it. the deadline, like having, he, you know, coming out with something on a daily basis, is more than a lot of creators want to do. so what's your process there?[00:07:55] Dave:Yeah. I mean, I should emphasize that I do it every day. Not because I think it's some incredible draw for readers to get Daily Content. I do it every day because I'm addicted to it. If my newsletter had five stories in it, instead of 10, it would do better. If my newsletter came out three days a week instead of five days a week, I'm sure it would do better.If it came out once a week, it would do even better then you know, also if I had a more marketable or not marketable, but a more, business-oriented topic that was more narrow, it would do better. I used to write a newsletter that was just on tech and it was. Really popular in the internet professional community back in the first boom, I had about 50,000 subscribers and there were probably about 52,000 internet professionals.So I just like writing about what I want to write about and I'm addicted to pressing the publish button and I'm just addicted to the process. So I do it because of that. I'm not sure that would be my general advice to somebody trying to market or promote a newsletter.[00:09:01] Nathan:Yep. Are there other iterations, either ever before or things that you tried that you realized like, oh, that's not a fit for your personality, your writing style?[00:09:09] Dave:Yeah. When I first started it, I actually, I'm an angel investor also and have been since, probably right after Google and Yahoo launched. so a while, and I used to, my passion has always been writing, so I wanted to mix writing into that, process. So I would send out 10. Daily stories, but they were all tech news related to the CEOs of the companies I worked with and a few of their employees, so that they wouldn't have to spend their time reading the news or worrying about competitors or worry about what the latest trends in tech, where I would give it to them.And they could focus on doing their jobs and that sorta got shared and got out. so I did that for a few years. really, that was my iteration. I should've kept the brand. It was called David Netflix. not that it was a great name, but I've shifted brands about 40 times in my life. Cause I love branding and naming.I that's another, maybe this is more of a cautionary tale than a lesson and newsletter marketing. I would stick with a brand if anybody has the possibility of doing that, that was a big mistake I've made over the years is having multiple brands. But when the bus came, the first internet bust, I basically was writing an obituary column every day and about companies that had failed.So I just decided, I wanted to expand it and I knew I was interested in much broader topics than just tech news. So I expanded it to all news, a critical point that, really changed Next Draft and got it to catch on and become more popular was when I decided to focus on making it more personality driven and less, less overwhelmingly, providing an overwhelming level of coverage.I used to think that I had to provide all the news in the day because people would sort of, depend on me to provide their news. I was sort of selling myself as your trusted news source. So I would include a lot of stories that I didn't have anything to say about because they were huge news, you know, an embassy closed in Iran or whatever.That was huge international news, but I didn't necessarily have anything to say about that that day. So after a while I decided, no, I'm not going to do that. I'm just going to limit it to 10 items. And I'm going to focus that on what I think is the most fascinating and think of it less like a curation tool and more like, a, modern day column.I think if the column newspaper column were invented today, it would look a lot like Next Draft people would sort of share their takes and then provide links off for more information. once I did that, it was a big change. People started signing up much more readily and, once I stopped trying to be exhaustive.[00:11:56] Nathan:That makes a lot of sense to me. I think that that's something you see from a lot of creators is that they're, they're trying to find some model. That's like, this is my idea of what people should want, you know, rather than what they end up doing, eventually it's coming to, it's like, okay, forget all of that.This is what I want. And I'm going to make that. And then people like me can find and follow it. And people who don't can, you know, do their thing. Can you go find one of the other million sources on the internet?[00:12:21] Dave:Yeah. When I think of the people that I like to follow or have followed forever on the internet, all of them are that ladder. They just do it their way. They have a design, they want, they stick to their guns. They say what they feel like saying. they decide. what the personality of the product is.And, they move within that. I always find that to be the most interesting thing, especially when it comes to something like newsletters. I really think newsletters are more like a radio talk shows than they are like other internet content, podcasts to a certain degree as well. But I always feel like I listened to are used to listen a lot to this radio, sports caster named Jim Rome.And whenever he would have a new city that he was launching and he would always give the same speech on the Monday that they launched saying, just give me a week. You might not.Get the vibe of what we're doing today. You might think it's okay, but not great, but just give it a week and listen, and then decide if you like it or not.And I sort of feel like that's how newsletters are your relationship with your readers sort of creates this, sort of insider-y voice and communication that, you, it takes a little while to get into the rhythm of getting it. But once you do, then it's like this familiar voice or this familiar friend that you feel like, even if you didn't read it for a few weeks, you can start a conversation with that person right away easily.That's how I think the voice of a newsletter is most effective. So that's why I've always thought of it. More of what I do is sort of a textual talk radio, more so than a blog or some other format[00:14:01] Nathan:What do you think, or what would you say to someone who maybe had 10 or 20,000 subscribers and felt like their newsletter had gone a bit stale and maybe their relationship to it had gotten a bit stale or they're in this, this position of writing things that no longer have their voice, how would you coach them through like bringing their voice and personality back into it?[00:14:22] Dave:I mean, it's definitely hard. it's hard doing something that you do alone and, something that is often hard to really get off the ground or get to grow, especially when you're on a platform like the internet, where every day, somebody does something and 10 seconds later, they're like internet famous and you're trying day after day.So, I mean, the first thing. Is that you really have to be interested in what you you're passionate about. and focus in on that, because that will alleviate a lot of that stress. Like, do I feel like sending it today? I'm a too burnt out. What's the point? I mean, not that those feelings don't happen. I had those feelings as recently as an hour ago, when I press publish, I have those feelings and disappointments constantly, you know, that's part of being a creator of any kind.Maybe that word is sort of, sort of goofy, but anybody who's putting themselves out there and putting content out, you know, you have that feeling all the time. If you're an indie, and you're doing it all day in front of the computer by yourself, then that's even more powerful because, you know, if you work at a big company or everybody's working on the same goal, or even in a small group, you can sort of support each other and, maybe even bullshit each other at some cases where, oh, no, this really matters.You know, where, if you're by yourself, that has to be pretty self-sustaining or self-sustaining. I do have a friend or two that I always share blurbs with who, one of my friends Rob's, he proves almost all of my blurbs, so it's nice to have that virtual office mate. He's not really officially part of Next Draft, but you know, I don't think I would do it as easily or as, for as long if it weren't for him because he's like my virtual friend on the internet that says, oh, come on, let's get it out today or whatever.So I think that's helpful to have a support team or a couple people you can count on to sort of give you a boost when you need it. But the key really is, is that it's gotta be something that you are passionate about, both in terms of the product and in terms of what you're focusing on, because if you feel strongly about it, then it really.I don't want to say it doesn't matter if people enjoy it, you should take cues from your readers. What are they clicking on? What are they reading? What are they responding to? But at the core, it's gotta be you because that's what gets you through those down points? you know, I had a weird thing because I write about news.The general news, world basically benefited dramatically from the Trump era because everybody was habitually turning on their news, 24, 7, and refreshing and Whitey and Washington post and checking Twitter every two seconds to see what crazy thing happened next. And we're all poor sorta,[00:17:01] Nathan:Wreck to watch.[00:17:02] Dave:So everybody was really into it and it created.Unbelievable platform for people to become media stars. You know, Trump was bad for democracy, but he was great for media. Great for creating new voices out there. whether we like it or not. for me, it was different because I wrote about all news. I wouldn't say I was apolitical, but I wasn't heavily political.The Next Draft had plenty of readers from both sides of the aisle. when Trump came around, it was like one story every day, basically. So it really limited. I would get emails from longtime readers all the time that said, Hey, can't you cover something other than Trump every day?And I say, Hey, if you can find the story for me, I'll cover it. This is what every journalist is on. Now, the people who used to cover the secret service around Trump, the people who used to cover sports are not talking about Trump because of a pandemic relation ship to it. The people who aren't entertainment are talking about Trump because they can't believe that anybody voted for him, whatever the issue was, every dinner party was about Trump.So it was really a bummer for my brand and my product. Actually, it became boring in some ways to me to have the same story every day. And it became, I think frustrating to my readers.But during that era, when it was happening, I had to make a decision. Do I become more political and go full on with this?Or do I sort of try to. Do what I would call a falsely unbiased view or a, you know, false equivalence view that we saw in the media where there's both sides to every story. And you have to pretend they're both accurate, including one guy saying to put disinfectant into your veins. And the other person's saying to wear a mask and take a vaccine, but those things get treated as equal somehow because the president said it.And I really decided, you know, more important than keeping readers is that I'm true to my own sort of ethical standards. In a moment that called for it, at least for me. So I became more political. went into it and I said, what I believe and still believe is the truth, you know, about what was happening with Trump and Trumpism and our slide towards authoritarianism.And I know that this is a podcast more about newsletterish than it is about politics or news, but I'm just sharing that because that's the kind of thing that kept me going. and the people who really cared about what I was writing, appreciated it and would email me and say they got something out of that.And most importantly, my mom would say, yeah, you made the right call. Or my dad would say, yeah, you got that. Right. And ultimately, When it became a sort of a bummer period for me, which I would say 2020 was because of all the horrible news. And, I was writing a book about the year. So I was like living, July of 20, 20, well writing about March of 2020, which I don't recommend for anybody's emotional health.And I just had to think like, what's really important to me. Yes. I want to be funny, which I try to be in my newsletter every day. I want to be read my narcissism is as strong as ever, but ultimately I want to be able to look myself in the reflection of the, darken screen on the rare times that it is dark and say like, yeah, you told the truth and that kept me going there.So I think whatever your brand is, you know, it can be a newsletter about guitars, but if you have that sort of passion, And you have something you want to say, and you think is important to say it sort of gets you through those levels and your motivation. And if it's not getting you through the lows and the motivation, there's nothing wrong with saying, Hey man, this is not worth it.I'm going to go try to make something else. You know, it doesn't have to be, you don't have to beat a dead horse.[00:20:51] Nathan:On the political side. Are there specific things that you felt like it costs you opportunities that it lost you? Because I think a lot of creators, whether they talk about, you know, finance or photography or whatever, I'll see these things. And they're like this either directly relates to me and my audience and I feel like I should take a stand on it.Or it's like a broader macro issue that I feel like we should talk about. And when you do, then there's immediately, you know, somewhere between three and 300 responses of like, we didn't follow you for the politics, you know, or like something like that. And your Instagram, DMS, or newsletter replies or whatever.[00:21:24] Dave:Yeah. it costs me a lot. Definitely it costs me readers or subscribers. It costs me, psychic pain because I was locked into a story that was just overwhelmingly, emotionally painful, really, and shocking and difficult to understand all the things that cause you sort of emotional exhaustion. We're in the Trump story, especially in 2020, when it became a story about our own health and our kids' health.And the frustration level just went through the roof. for me, professionalizing that content actually helps create a bit of a barrier to the feelings about it. Some of my good friends were probably more bummed during 2020 than I was because when the latest crazy story or depressing story would happen, I felt I had to. Ingest that content and then come up with, something cogent to say about it. And maybe hopefully funny to make it a little bit of sugar to take the medicine and then get it out to people. So I've always felt that being able to do that, sorta created a barrier between myself and actually feeling something.So that's another thing I like about the newsletter probably at least unconsciously. but yeah, there was a lot of costs in terms of readers, for sure. Hate mail. but there always is, you know, Today. I would say I get much more hate mail from the far left. If that's what you want to call them. People who feel like every joke is like an incredible triggering a front to their existence or any hint that you mentioned somebody as attractive.I've gotten hate mail because I implied that Beyonce is appearance was part of her brand. I mean, it's totally crazy, but, It's those extremes. You have to be able to turn off. You know, a friend of mine used to work at a major, be the editor of a major American newspaper. And he said every Friday they would get together and they would play the craziest, calls to the editor.They had a call line. In addition to, you could send a letter or you could call, leave a voicemail about something you were upset about in the coverage. And they would just gather around and have drinks on Friday. Listen to this because of course the people who are calling this line are almost self-selecting themselves as a little bit wacko and their takes were usually pretty extreme.The internet, Twitter, social media, Provides, greases the wheels for those people to be more prevalent in our lives. But I think it's really important to know that that's a real minority of people, somebody who sent you a hate mail, that your joke was so offensive, or they can't believe you mentioned that people ever watch pornography on the internet or any of these other things, it's this tiny minority of people.And then it's one step crazier that they felt like they had to contact you. So that's a really hard thing. I think about being split, particularly the newsletter game, because anybody can hit reply and you're going to get many more replies from people with crazy complaints, than you are from people with really thoughtful responses.Not that those don't come and those are valuable and I love getting those, but you get many more from people that just have really bizarre. I mean I could list probably for hours to crazy things that people send me that they're mad about, you know,[00:24:50] Nathan:Is there something specific that you do? Like one thing when I get those replies, if they're just like completely off the wall or abusive or something like that, I just scroll down and then click their unsubscribe link because, you know, they're never going to know, and then I just have to show up in their inbox[00:25:07] Dave:Right.[00:25:08] Nathan:There's something that you do.[00:25:09] Dave:That's not a bad strategy. I like that. I do do that occasionally for sure. occasionally I'll just go to Gmail and just, create a filter for that email to automatically go to my trash. if it's like a hardcore right-winger, that's telling me how stupid I am about ivermectin and that, you know, people should be taking horse dewormer and I'm just not getting the truth.And that Trump is awesome and that, Whatever. I usually just delete, honestly, because I don't see a big benefit to replying to somebody, especially if it's like a rabbit email, you know, they're looking for a reply, they want the conflict. A lot of people sleep easy with conflict. That's one of the lessons of the internet that I learned when I was first starting on the internet, you know, David edix sort sorta became popular because somebody that had a blog with a similar name, that I hadn't heard of, complained that I sort of stole his name because his name was also Dave.And I had got like, probably about three or 400 emails saying, you know, with expletive saying what a horrible person I was. And I also got about 3000 subscribers and at the time I had about 30, so. I didn't know how to respond. I felt like, wow. Number one, I didn't know that guys had the product with the same name.Number two. My name was different enough. Number two or three were both named Dave. I mean, who cares? You know, and plus I don't want to be attacked by anybody. So your first reaction is to respond and a slightly older, although not noticeably these days with my gray beard, slightly older friend of mine who had been in tech a little longer, said, don't respond.This guy lives for conflict. You guys are going to fight. There's going to be this public thing. You're going to be up all night and he's going to never sleep so easy. So, I took that to heart and didn't respond. And I, I think about that a lot when I get rabid emails from people, Mike exception, actually probably my weak point really is from, more my side of the political spectrum, where people who are generally liberal, but are just so extreme for me.In terms of being triggered or having a joke, be every joke, be inappropriate. That those people, I actually do feel like I want to respond to because, I, I don't think I can really motivate or move, somebody who was on the opposite end of the spectrum and is sending me hate aggressive, hate mail, but maybe I can move somebody who's just a little bit different than me, or a little bit more extreme.I will respond to those, although I'm usually sorry. The one other thing I always respond to is if people have been reading, they say, oh, I've been reading you for years. And, I wanted to ask you a couple of questions about this book that you wrote before ordering it. And I'm like, just order the damn book. that's probably my most common email to people these days. It's actually remarkable how many people says, wow, I I've been reading you for years. I share you with all my friends. something, when my sons come home from college where it's always talking about, Dave said this, Dave said that, before I buy your book, I just wanted to ask you a couple of questions to make sure it's going to be for me.I'm like I worked on something for an hour and it's like, your family is talking about it. What, just by the thing I worked on for a year, you know? So those kind of things, personal frustration, I respond.[00:28:37] Nathan:Yeah, that makes sense. okay. I'd love to talk about the book some more, but before we get into that, there's two things I want to talk about. The first one is like, how do you measure success for the newsletter? What's the thing that you'd like to, cause I don't think it's, you're pursuing the monetary side for this.It sounds like the monetary side comes from investing and, and then what's success for the newsletter.[00:28:59] Dave:I mean, I have had right now, I I'm just marketing my, my own stuff. And during the pandemic I marketed non-profits, but, that had to do with either the pandemic or, the democracy issues that we were facing. but I have made decent money from selling straight sponsorships. Year-long sponsorships to people, which I highly recommend.I think some of the ads that people put into his letters that go by clicks or whatever, unless you have a massive audience, it's hard to make much money, but if you pitch to some company that is a like-minded brand, Hey, you're going to be my only brand for a year. And anytime you have special events, I'm going to mention it.Then you can say, okay, you have like, you know, 20,000 readers or a hundred thousand readers that can make a difference to a brand to say, yeah, it's like a rounding air show. We'll give you 20 grand or a hundred grand or wherever it comes in there that you can actually make a decent. Living in terms of writing.So that always worked better for me, but no, my, my internet life is really all about narcissism and, clicks, you know, the dopamine, I just want reads. I'd rather you subscribe to my newsletter than pitch me your startup company. I just, that's what I want the most. So more numbers, more opens, more reads, more subscribers.And unfortunately that's probably the hardest thing to get also, especially in a product that is sort of viral. I think newsletters are sort of viral, but it's better if you have a team and some tools to really get it going. That's, you know, sites like the Skimm morning brew and the hustle. They have teams that are really growth hacking and focusing on that and having rewards programs and ambassador programs.The reason you see that is because.Newsletters themselves are not really inherently that viral. Yes. Somebody can forward it to one person or whatever, but it's not as viral as a lot of other forms of content where you can click a button and share it with all of your followers, like a Facebook post or a tweet.So yeah, the thing that matters to me most is probably the hardest to get in the newsletter game, but that's the truth[00:31:10] Nathan:Yeah. Well, I think the, the point on like newsletters don't have a distribution engine. There's no Facebook newsfeed, YouTube algorithm equivalent for newsletters. And so it really relies on either you posting your content somewhere else, whether it's Twitter or YouTube or medium or something that has an algorithm or your readers saying like, oh, I read Next Draft.You should too. There's not really something else in there. Have you looked at, or I guess if you have thoughts on that, you comments on it, but then also have you looked at launching an ambassador program or, or an actual referral program?[00:31:44] Dave:Yeah, I've thought about him. And now over the last year, there's been a few tools that have come out a few. I think X people from sites like morning view Ru, and some other sites that have sort of perfected some of these marketing programs have, sort of come out with these tools. I've messed around with them a little bit.Some of them still require I find, some technical ones. so I, I have like an engineer who works with me on Next Draft, like as a freelance basis every now and then, but it's not always easy for me to launch stuff that requires a lot of a moment to moment technical support, and management, because it's just me using a lot of, they're customized, but they're over the counter tools.So I've thought about a lot of them, but I really haven't tried it that much.I want to though I do want to do that. I would like to do one of those programs, especially where you get credit for referrals. I think that's the best kind of model. So there's one called spark loop.[00:32:51] Nathan:Yeah, we actually, I invested in spark loops, so we[00:32:54] Dave:Okay.[00:32:55] Nathan:Decent portion of that business, so good.[00:32:58] Dave:Oh, nice. Yeah. That one, if it was just slightly easier, I know that it's probably difficult to make it easier because, there's so many pieces. They have to have your subscribers. I have to have my subscribers, but that is, does seem like a good product. And especially if they can, I think expand into like letting a person sell a product or whatever, get credited for sharing products that can be even bigger.But yeah, that kind of stuff is really powerful for sure. And I, I do want to get into that. it's more just inertia that I it's just a matter of sitting there for the, an amount of hours that it requires to get it going.But I do think that's a great thing for newsletter writers to do, and I'm pretty surprised that more newsletter platforms don't build it right in.I think that'll probably change over time too. Maybe you guys will get acquired by.[00:33:48] Nathan:Yep. No, that makes sense. I know for convert kit, we wanted to build it in, it looks at the amount of time that it would take and then said like let's invest in a , you know, and then roll it into our offering.[00:33:59] Dave:Yeah, it's hard. It's hard not to take that stuff personally, too, you know, for people that do newsletters, you think you're going to put a thing on there and say, Hey, you know, it's just me here and you always read my newsletter and click. I know you love me so much. Can you just do this to get a free whatever?And it's, you know, sometimes not that many people click, you know, or other times like they click just as long as there's the free item. So there's a lot of ways to get depressed. Like I had things where I say, Hey, the first a hundred people who do this, get a free t-shirt or whatever next strap t-shirt.And those hundred people will literally do what I asked them to do in like 34 seconds, you know? And then it like stops after that. The next time you ask them, if there's not a t-shirt. But it's not you, you know, if you go to a baseball game or a lawyer game or whatever, you know, people sit there, they don't even cheer as much for the team as they cheer when the guy comes out with the t-shirt gun.So it's like, people love t-shirts more than they're ever going to love you. And you have to go into these things with that in mind. there's no way, even if it's, even if you're XX large and the t-shirt is, you know, petite, it's still worth more than you are. And the average mind of the average person.So you have to go into all of these things thinking, I hope this works like crazy, but if it doesn't tomorrow, I open up the browser and start writing.[00:35:19] Nathan:Yeah. That's very true. I want to talk about the growth of the newsletter. I was reading something, which I realized later was back in 2014, that you were at around 160,000 subscribers. I imagine it's quite a bit larger than that now. And then I'd love to hear some of the inflection points of growth.[00:35:35] Dave:Yeah, I'm not, I'm not sure. I might've, I don't know if I lied in 2014, but now I have about,[00:35:41] Nathan:Quoted it wrong.[00:35:42] Dave:No, you might've got it right. I might've exaggerated. Maybe that was a including app downloads and a few other things. Yeah. I have about 140,000 or so now, so that would be making that a pretty horrible seven years now.You're depressing me.Your listeners should just stop, stop writing newsletters. It's not worth the depression[00:36:02] Nathan:Just give up now[00:36:03] Dave:Yeah. And by all means if Nathan goals do not pick up. no, yeah, I probably have it 140,000 on newsletter. Made my newsletter. It's hard to believe in this era of newsletters actually, but when I first launched Next Draft, I noticed that even people who would send in testimonials or that I would ask for testimonials would say, basically something to the extent that even though email is horrible, this is the one newsletter I I'd sign up for whatever.And I kept thinking, man, that's a bummer that I'm starting out at this deficit, that people have a negative feeling about the medium. So I, since then I've always made it my goal to. Have the content available wherever people are. So the newsletter is certainly the main way that people get next job, but there's an app for the iPhone and the iPad there.That's the first thing I launched because I wanted to have an alternative for people who just hate email too much. So now you go to the landing page, it's like, Hey, if you don't like email, here's another version. I have a blog version. I have an apple news version. I have an RSS version. I'm lucky enough to have a really good, WordPress custom WordPress install that I just push one button and it pushes it out to all of those things.But I am, I'm a big proponent of just meeting people where they are. even, as an example, I recently launched a sort of a substance. Version of my newsletter under the radar. but when I redo my site, I'm going to make that more clear because if people already subscribed to like 10 sub stacks and they're using their aggregator and they already have their email saved and they can just click a button, it's like, I don't care.You know, it takes me five extra minutes to paste my content into sub stack. So I just want the reads. I don't really care about how they read it or whether they read it.[00:37:55] Nathan:Yeah. That's fascinating. So then let's shift gears a little bit. I want to hear about the book. first I wanna hear about the title. Would you have it on your shirt?[00:38:03] Dave:Yeah. That's pretty embarrassing. I swear. I didn't know it was video today, but I do have a shirt[00:38:06] Nathan:You're good.[00:38:07] Dave:Otherwise I wouldn't have worn. This would have worn my Nathan Barry's shirt.[00:38:12] Nathan:That's right. It's in the mail actually. It's[00:38:15] Dave:Oh, good, good.[00:38:16] Nathan:Big photo of my face.[00:38:17] Dave:Yeah. Convert kit. My wife converted to Judaism before we got married. So I have my own convert kit.[00:38:23] Nathan:There you go. Exactly. so I want to hear like what the book is about and then particularly where the title came from,[00:38:30] Dave:Sure.[00:38:31] Nathan:It made me laugh a lot when I heard it.[00:38:33] Dave:Oh, cool. That's good. That's a good start then. yeah, the title comes from, in July of the, of 2020 when the pandemic was really setting in and becoming a reality for everybody. this amusement park outside of Tokyo in the shadow of Mount Fuji called the Fuji queue. amusement park reopened.And they found that even though everybody w everybody was wearing masks, people were screaming so much on some of the rides, especially the Fujiyama roller coaster, which was their scariest ride, that they were worried about germs spread. So they sort of put signs around the amusement park saying, no screaming, you can come, you can ride and have fun, but keep your mask on adults scream.And it sort of became a little minor social media thing in Japan, where people were sort of making fun of them like, oh, they're telling us not to scream. How can anybody not scream on the Fujiyama roller coaster? So in response, the, park management had to have their executives with perfectly quaffed hair and tie and colored shirts and masks on ride the roller coaster with a webcam facing them the whole time without moving a muscle.Cracking a smile or grimacing or screaming. And then at the end of the ride, when the rollercoaster stops, it says, please Scream Inside Your Heart.And that was always my favorite meme of, 2020. It went really viral. There was like t-shirts. aside from mine, there were posters memes. It sort of went crazy for about a week or two, which by 2020 standards is a pretty long time for a meme to last.And I just thought that made sense as a title for the book, because that's sort of how we felt, all year that I dunno if we were screaming in our heart, but we were certainly screaming into a void. Like no matter what we sat or yelled on social media or complained to our family members or friends, it just kept getting worse.The year just kept getting worse. And, so the idea is that this book sort of, now you're free to sort of let out the scream. And the book is it's about 2020, certainly, but it's really about the issues that led us to 2020. There's a ton about our relationship to media and including my own relationship to media and how that got us into trouble.Some of the stuff we're talking about today, how, technology has impacted our lives stuff. I've been sort of thinking about it, writing about for the last few decades, and a lot of the political hate that emerged. and, but it's all within this time capsule of the craziest year.[00:41:12] Nathan:Yeah. Yeah. And so that's coming out early in November, November 2nd. so you're, it looks like you're just starting the, you know, mentioning the promotion tour and all of that. is there a big, big push that comes with it or are you kind of, I, I'm always curious with people's book launches, what strategy they take.[00:41:30] Dave:Yeah. I mean, I'm a newbie, so it's, the whole process has been interesting to me working with a publisher, working with others, is not my forte. so I got used to that or I'm getting used to that and they're probably getting used to it also because working with grouchy 50 something in these is probably not ideal, but, yeah, I've just been promoting it so far in Next Draft, but I've been doing, I have a PR company that's helping me and I've been doing a ton of podcasts and I'm marketing it to my own readers.And then as it gets a little bit closer to the November 2nd date, I have a lot more stuff planned rut, a lot of influencers have early copies of the book, and hopefully they'll promote it. And, I'll call out a few favors from bloggers and hopefully newsletter writers. I feel like that should be my in theory.That should be my secret weapon because, in addition to being fun and creative, nothing moves traffic, except maybe Facebook, nothing moves traffic more than newsletters. I know a lot of people who run e-commerce companies and newsletters are always second, if not first, in terms of traffic drivers.So, I really think that, if some of my friends out there at morning brew in the hustle and the scam and all these other sites that sort of, have surpassed my size by quite a bit, put the word out that, one of their fellow warriors is, has a book out. That'll probably move the needle even more. The media, I'm hoping to get stuff like that, but I really don't know. I'm trying not to get my hopes up too much because, unlike a newsletter, it's not just one day's work, you know, you like worry about one word or one sentence in a book for like three weeks and then you put it out there and people are like, oh yeah, I'll check it out sometime.Thanks. So, you know, that's, you know, whatever that's life as a, you put yourself out there, that's how it goes. So I'm hoping it sells well. And, the more people that get it, I think some people, their first reaction is, oh my God, 2020. I don't want to relive that again. But, hopefully people who know my brand and those that they share it with, know that it's, you know, there's a lot of humor and there's, it's probably 30 pages before we even get into the first event of 2020.So it's, there's a lot more to it and it's sort of fun and crazy and tries to have the pace of a roller coaster. that was the other thing I took from the Fujiyama roller coaster.[00:43:59] Nathan:Yeah. So one thing that I'm always curious about with people who have like a prolific newsletter, you know, in your case of writing every day, and then like, for a lot of people, that would be a lot to handle of staying on top of a daily newsletter. And then you're writing a book on top of that. How did you schedule your time?Were you blocking off like, oh, these afternoons are specifically for book, book writing. Cause you turned it around relatively fast.[00:44:24] Dave:Yeah. the newsletter is sort of like a full-time job. People always ask me, you know, when do you work on, or how many hours do you spend on it? I mean, I'm, I'm always looking for news, whether it's on Twitter or friends, emailing me stuff or texting me stories, or just in conversations with people to see what they're into or what stories are interesting them or what I'm missing.In terms of actual time spent like where I'm dedicating time. I probably do like about an hour every night, because the story has changed so quick. So I'll do an hour of looking for stories every night. And then the next day I sort of lock in from about nine to one, usually, or nine to 12, where I'm finding stories, saving those stories, choosing what stories I want to go with and then actually writing the newsletter.All of that takes about anywhere from like two and a half to four hours, depending on the day I go pretty fast. When it came to the book, that was tricky. It was actually more emotionally tricky because like I said before, I was like, had to go back and write about, you know, Briana Taylor while I'm living another horrible act, you know, or even more so the Trump, you know, one crazy Trump thing and another crazy Trump thing and seeing the pandemic getting worse and worse.So that was stressful. But I found at the beginning I would try to write a lot at night and that was okay. But I found actually if I just kept going, in the day when I was already rolling and had written the newsletter and I was already in the group just to add on an hour or two to that was actually easier and more effective for me than trying to get going.But that's just me. I mean, I just go by my it's almost like my circadian rhythm or something like that, I almost never eat or consume anything before I'm done with next job except for coffee. I would keep that going, you know, once I would like, sort of have a sandwich or whatever, then it's like, oh, let me just take a quick nap and then whatever.So, yeah, I tried to just keep it going. I always find the more consistently busy I am, the less I procrastinate. And if I take a day off or I take a few hours off, even then, between writing, it just, it takes me longer to get going.[00:46:37] Nathan:Yep. That makes sense. The habit that I'm in right now is starting the day with 45 minutes to an hour of writing and that's working much better for me than like slotting it in somewhere else. So I think like w what I hear you saying is like, experiment and find the thing that works well for you.[00:46:54] Dave:Yeah. I mean, if you're going to start experimenting almost every writer, I know not like newsletter writers, but just general writers, all do what you just described. They sort of pick a time in the morning and they get their output done. then the rest of the day, if ideas come to them or whatever, they jot it down, but they're sort of powering in that morning hours.[00:47:13] Nathan:Yeah.[00:47:14] Dave:That's probably a good one to try. Although, you know, some people just do it better at different hours. I'm sure.[00:47:19] Nathan:Yeah. another thing I realized, I've always you for years, and until we got on this video call, I had no idea what you looked like. and which is kind of an interesting,[00:47:28] Dave:Well, I'm sorry.It's by design. I have a face for Panda.[00:47:32] Nathan:Tell me more about, well, I guess two sides, one, has there ever been an interesting interaction? You know, because you're like, Hey, I'm, I'm Dave and people are like, I wouldn't have ever recognized you. Or has there been any other benefits and thought behind, you know, why it have an avatar?[00:47:49] Dave:If by interesting you mean horrible? Yes. There's been many interesting interactions with people. I mean, before, before I had my current, avatar, which is, pretty awesome, actually, a guy named Brian Molko designed it. I had this incredible drawing of a character that looked like me that, had sort of ether net, Machinery and cord going into his head and it was like me, but my head was actually lifted.The top of my head was lifted off and you could see all this machinery and it was an incredible graphic, by this guy named Sam Spratt. Who's now done, album covers and book covers. He's like a super talent. If you want to follow somebody fun on Instagram, he's just incredible. And it was a drawing, even though it looked photo realistic.And I used that for a while and then I would go places and people would be like, you are so much fatter and grayer than I imagined. And so instead of having Sam sort of ruin his artwork, I went back with the more, cartoonish or animated, avatar. So since then I don't get too much of that, but, that was a good move.Although that's the best thing about avatars and the internet is that your avatar never ages. It always looks the same. It stays the same weight. My avatar never overeats he exercises right here. Angie really gets along well with others and doesn't have any kind of social anxiety either. So he's pretty cool.Yeah, it goes a little downhill with me in person. So[00:49:21] Nathan:Yeah. So is it, that's something that like, it gives you some distance between you and readers, or it gives you some anonymity that, you know, you don't want to be recognized in the streets?[00:49:32] Dave:No, no, it's, it's, basically just what I described. It's like, I literally prefer the, the attractiveness of my avatar versus me, but also actually my avatar is really awesome. my logo, so it's also iconic and scalable. so it looks awesome on t-shirts even people who don't know what Next Draft is when they see, by son wearing his t-shirt, whatever, it just looks awesome.So that that's that's as much of it as anything. I thought your response was going to be mad. You seem perfectly attractive to me. I don't know what the issue is, but no, you went with, am I doing that for some other reason? Yeah. So, I get this all the time.Cause my wife is a very attractive person also. So when people meet me, they're always like, whoa, we were once a very famous celebrity came up to me and I said, oh, I'm Gina's husband. And she was like, wow, you did well. Oh, you know? So I'm like, thanks a lot. That helps. So just gave her a picture of my, my icon and walked away.[00:50:31] Nathan:Then that worked. I'm sure that she has it framed in her office, from now on. it's just interesting to me. You're you're sort of at this intersection between personal brand and, like media brand. And I think the avatar helps push you over into the media brand side. and I don't have any real commentary on it other than I find it interesting.[00:50:53] Dave:Yeah, no, I think there probably is some of that. I I've never really been a fan of using my actual face, or my actual person as a logo. I love the process of designing or working with people to design logos and taglines and all that. But yeah, probably at some point there was a, a goal with Next Draft to make it seem bigger than it is.I know a lot of people that are solo operators. They regularly say we, when they're talking about their brand to make it seem bigger, I actually think that's sort of been flipped on its head though. in the last few years where so many people are coming into the space, it's very clear that what they're doing is leaving a big brand, leaving a we and going to an eye.And I think it's actually a selling point in a lot of ways. So, I mean, I, I still get a lot of emails that say, I don't know if anybody at Next Draft is going to read this email, you know, or if you do, can you get this message to Dave? He's an asshole or whatever. And it's like, I'm the only one here, you know, or the other one I always get is when I email back to people that go, oh, I can't believe you actually emailed back.I didn't think this would get to anybody. It's like, you hit reply. And it had my email, like where else would it go? Exactly. You know? But I think actually having people thinking of you as a person, instead of a brand, Is a benefit today. Whereas if you would ask me when I was younger, I probably would have said, make it seem like you have a big company behind you.[00:52:24] Nathan:Yeah. And I think that that indie shift overall, like people are looking for that.[00:52:29] Dave:Yeah,[00:52:29] Nathan:Want to ask about the intersection between your investing and the newsletter. like, are you still actively investing today and doing author.[00:52:38] Dave:Yeah, yeah, no, I, I still invest a ton. I usually follow along with people who are a little more in tune with today's companies than I am. I don't really go out there and brand myself as an investor much, but I've been really lucky. I have very little intersection actually, if any, with my newsletter and my investing and I definitely want people to. To think of me as a writer first, for sure. Not as an investor who has this hobby, because that's definitely not in terms of time or passion, the reality. but I've been really lucky over the years that, I've invested with people or co-invested with them that were cool with me. branding myself as a writer first, but still looking at deals that came through their brands because they were branded as BCS or investors or angels.That's probably a bigger deal now than when I first started. There were like five angel investors, basically. Nobody really did small, early stage seed deals. you know, I mean, we all knew each other that did it and now there's like thousands of them. So you really have to be either a really pretty well-known entrepreneur or you have to. Sort of attach yourself to our organization or two who are really branding themselves well, getting out there and building a stable of companies,[00:53:58] Nathan:Yeah.[00:53:59] Dave:It's pretty different, more, much more has changed about that than the newsletter game, actually, which is pretty much the same as it was the day I started actually.[00:54:07] Nathan:Are there a few of those I'm curious who are a few of those, people that you would tag along with, you know, when they're investing where like, oh, this person puts money into something I'd like to be right there with them.[00:54:19] Dave:I mean, I have some people that are like entrepreneurs and former entrepreneurs that do it, and if they like it I'll do it. but generally I co-invest with, at any given time, a different group of people, used to be a larger group. When I first started out, my whole investing career, I've co-invested with this guy named Bob zip who's much smarter and much wiser than I am about all things business and.Startup world. So that was really great. And he used to work at a company called venture law group in the first boom, and they represented Google, Hotmail. eGroups all the big, huge, early internet companies, and so he really knew the space well. And when he became, I used to get deals from him.That's how you used to get deals actually was by a couple of law firms that focused on startups. I've been co-investing with him all along and he's been generous enough to, he left the law firm a long, long time ago and became an investor primarily. And he had a fund and was well-known guy and well-respected guy.So I got to sit in when he would hear pitches. and we sort of, we weren't investing together out of the same fund, but we would sort of make our decisions together. And we still do that a lot. these days, I almost always follow along with a guy named run-on barn Cohen and a really good friend of mine.He was for many years at WordPress, basically, most of the things that make money at WordPress, he did. and now he's a investor at a VC called resolute. If anybody's looking for a good VC, he's like incredible, like Bob zip much, much smarter than I am about this stuff. Unbelievably ethical, great business sense.Great technical sense. so I mostly just follow him. So if he does something that's usually good enough for me. And if I see something that I think it's good, I'll pass it along to him, but it's mostly that, but I've been really fortunate. I can't express that enough, that I've been able to invest in companies without having to spend all of my time, branding myself as an investor.That's just been unbelievably lucky. So, I've been able to focus a ton of my energy on my six.[00:56:31] Nathan:That's right. I'm writing a newsletter about the news. I guess, as you're looking to grow and continue on, right? Like the next phase of readers and, and all of that, since we can just say directly that we're all narcissists and we do this for the attention. what's what's sort of that next thing that you're looking for, it's going from 140,000 subscribers to say 200,000 and beyond.[00:56:54] Dave:Yeah, well, I'm, I'm hoping that, I'm not just trying to sell my book here. I'm hoping that the book and the newsletter will sort of have, a coexistence with them because the new the book is really an extension of the brand and the brand is that icon to Next Draft. So I'm hoping that the tricky part about writing about marketing a newsletter, like we discussed earlier, there's not really a natural virality to them.So. You Have this piecemeal growth from people telling each other or their friends or forwarding it to somebody or maybe occasionally tweeting or sharing a Facebook link. Oh, you should check this out. But it's all sort of small little blips. If you get a news story or a big blog story about it, or another newsletter recommending you, that's probably the fastest way people grow these days is by, co-sponsoring each other's newsletters or co-promoting them.Those big hits are more rare and they usually require like, I've had a ton of stories written about Next Draft, but most of them a long time ago, because it's basically a similar product to what it was when they wrote about it the first time. So they're like, Hey, I'd love to write about it, but what's the hook.What's the new thing, you know? so I'm hoping that the book provides that emphasis. It's like, we're doing now a ton of people who may by either been on a podcast in the past, or they've wanted to do a podcast with me say, okay, now's a great time. I'd probably want to move your book and, we can set something up.So it's sort of as an impetus. So I'm hoping that that will be the next big newsletter thing that most, most people who write about the book will also write about the newsletter and the two things can sort of grow together.[00:58:35] Nathan:I think that's spot on.[00:58:36] Dave:That's in terms of, you know, marketing and promotion, otherwise, I do want to try, one of these referral programs because people definitely do like products.And, I am lucky that my icon looks really good on shirts so that people actually really want them. And I have a great designer named Brian Bell who makes all of my shirts.[00:58:58] Nathan:There's something like when creators thinking about products, often if you spread yourself too thin, you're like into the newsletter, the book, the podcast, and like the 14 other things that you could make all at once you sort of hinder the growth of each thing, but then if you really build one of them up to a significant level, then at that point it can start to stall out and by shifting to another medium or have it like launching another product in this case, the newsletter to a book, then that book can have a bunch more momentum that feeds back into it.And so there's just sort of this interesting balance of like, no, When to like, keep pushing on the thing that you have versus when to add the next thing that like, then they feed off of each other and go from there. So I think you're doing it with good timing.[00:59:45] Dave:Hopefully it'll work. All that kind of stuff is the tricky part of doing this stuff. Especially stuff like podcasts and newsletters that are—it's really a ton of word of mouth, unless you get lucky and get some press, and word of mouth is just slow.There's some point where you're going to hit a tipping point where you're going to go from five or 10,000 to like 50,000 much quicker, more quickly because instead of three people going home and saying, “Hey, did you ever hear of this newsletter?” there's like 30 people going home and saying that. But, even with that they hit a plateau, and then you figure out what's the next thing. That's why doing something you're into is so important.And I don't think it's bad to try those other mediums or stretch yourself out, because you never know you might've been writing a newsletter three years, and then you do a podcast and it catches on. For some reason, you're like awesome. Less typing, more talking, let's go. So, but it's tricky. I wish I was better and had better advice for people on promotion and marketing.I'm not awesome at it, and it's not in my nature. So, begging for favors or telling people, even in my own newsletter, to buy my own book is very painful for me. I'm very sensitive to criticism about it. So, if people just all bought it and then made everybody else buy it, that would be a huge relief for me.[01:01:13] Nathan:That would be great. Well, along those lines, where should people go to subscribe to the newsletter, and then follow you on your preferred channel, and then ultimately buy the book?[01:01:24] Dave:I don't want like two or 300,000 people taking my site down. So let's go with if your last name starts between A and M you can start by going to NextDraft.com and sign up for the newsletter there. Or, you can also just go to the App Store and search for Next Draft. If you're N through Z, you can start with the book, and that's at: PleaseScream.com.It has links to all the various audio, and Kindle, and hardcover versions.[01:01:50] Nathan:That's good. I liked how you split the traffic, that way there's no hug of death, and we'll do well there.[01:01:57] Dave:I don't want to get fireballed.[01:01:58] Nathan:That's right.Dave. Thanks for coming on. This was really fun.[01:02:01] Dave:Yeah, thanks a lot for having me.

Nathan: Marlena, tell me about your book.Marlena: Yeah, I'm glad  to talk about this --  The Way Up Is Down. I'd read through the gospels frequently, I should say, listen to them online before I go to bed at night, just to  hopefully absorb the life of Jesus into my life, through listening and, my imagination and mind.And I noticed that a lot of things stood out to me about Jesus.First, that he could have been born in a palace, but he chose to be born poor, which I could identify with because I grew up very poor in my life. And also I was struck by how many times, as people say, he talked about the upside down kingdom: Many of the first will be last and the last shall be first,  and the greatest person in the kingdom will be the servant of all.How  in the upper room where he bowed to wash the disciples feet and he says to those in the room, you don't know what I'm doing now, but later you will. And also Philippians chapter two, where, it talks about, the fancy word kenosis. He emptied himself so that he might be full of God.And so my book basically is about what it would look like to empty ourselves of all that is not Christ so that we can be full of the grace of God and live that way. And, I think it seems to run contrary what we see in the broader Christian culture.And I was so disillusioned with the witness of the church that I wanted to look at the life of Jesus and see and contrast it with how we seem to be collectively living. That said there's a many beautiful saints people that I've met, but I just feel like our witness is not that of Jesus.Nathan: What does it look like to empty ourselves?Marlena: Well, it can be a very difficult thing to do. I know you knew Dallas Willard, but I remember how he would always use the example of not having to have the last word in an argument or when someone put him down, it could be something, I don't want to say as simple as that, because that's difficult, not unleashing our anger on people that we could be justified in unleashing it at, we're in a time where, even, Christians use their words to hammer others, even justifiably so. Like sometimes people do and say things that are horrible and awful online and maybe in-person. And I could see, myself, easily just striking back or if you're attacked, you know, but Jesus tells us in Matthew 5:44 to love our enemies.And so, I empty myself. We empty ourselves, have the right to strike back at people in interpersonal relationships. Of course I'm always careful to tell people that we don't tolerate abuse or allow ourselves to be abused. That's not what I mean, but, I think too in the racial kind of tensions that have continued since the founding of America.Those of us that have privilege and it could be, you know, your racial status, like as a white person, or it could be wealth, Jesus emptied himself of that to serve other people. And that's what it looks like. And it would call for kind of some hard decisions. Like what are we going to do with our money?I remember when I was younger, a teenager or in my early twenties, maybe it's because I didn't have a lot of money, but I could not fathom what Jesus was talking about when he said you will either serve God or money. I'm like, what does he mean? And over the years, that question has been answered.I think that a lot of times the church bows to what money will do instead of doing what's right. You know, and I know it can be a hard decision because some pastors are put in positions, for example, I've I know pastors who've been told if you keep preaching this way or that way, I'm going to take my tithe and take it elsewhere, when they're preaching from scripture and Christian tradition and with the tithe goes, it could be a staff position, you know, depending how much money that person gives.And I just think a lot of times in the church we've chosen to serve money instead of serve others. And that we can kick people that are down, even though I believe it's that Isaiah 42, where he says a bruised reed, he will not break. and it seems sometimes the church is guilty of breaking bruised reeds and hurting the people that Jesus made a beeline to. And those are some of the things I reflect upon in the book, especially that the last will be first.One of my favorite things that I wrote about were the people with intellectual disabilities in my church.just like Lazarus was at the rich man's gate, you know, asking for food and the rich man rendered Lazarus invisible. I think God sends us teachers, I call it--you know, people to teach us the way of Jesus. But at first we wouldn't think that there are teachers. It might be, again, people with intellectual disabilities, it might be the elderly, the poor, or it could be family members within our own household, that God has allowed to be in our life and our paths and we ignore them.We can abuse them and denigrate them when they're the very people that God could use to teach us the way of Jesus. And so that's, again, how, you know, the last might be first. Like these people that I abuse or denigrated. Like CS Lewis talks about in the great divorce. I talk about us, Sarah Smith of Golders green.She was poor on earth, but in a CS Lewis' rendition. She's a great queen. And I actually think that. Maybe on the last day or when kingdom comes, you know, the last will be first and we'll be in for a big surprise.Nathan: There's a very personal piece in the book. I'm curious. How does your story fit into this narrative?Marlena: Yeah, I could really identify with Jesus. I used to say, Lord, why did you make me poor? or did you allow me to be poor? I don't know all the theology behind it. Right. I can never ascertain that. And I don't think we have for millennia, but, I used to wonder why I was allowed to, if you want to use that language to suffer and, you know, I think about not having gifts on Christmas, not having Thanksgiving dinner.I used to hate the holidays because of that. I'm just working cutting wood to earn gas money for my dad. And that allowed me to realize that Jesus said, well, I, you know, I didn't have somewhere to lay my head. And I was like, Oh, I can be in solidarity with Jesus in this way. He understands what I went through.You know, I'm not in the same condition I was growing up. But I still suffer, I guess, what would you call it? Like the consequences of, I would say it's probably generational poverty, you know, no wealth passed on to .. . I don't know to give me some kind of, and my husband too, a cushion. So, everything we've had to pay, you know, by God's grace for ourselves.I think that allows me maybe to see from the bottom up, maybe it's allowed me to see people, the people that the world neglects that have been such an example of Christ to me. And  it might be the, the weight of glory where he talks about, people become such bright lights that you're almost tempted to bow down and worship them or such, you know, maybe hideous monsters.And I have felt like this overwhelming sometimes. Uh, desire to curtsy, to people just cause I see the love of God and the love of Christ in them and see how they live in the every day.  You know, saints every day saints. I just almost see light emanating from them.And usually, I mean, They not even aware of it themselves. Um, and so I give thanks to God and I say, thank you, God, that you've graced me with your presence through these people. And so I'm really kind of fascinated with the Lord, just how he turns everything upside down and that he can relate to me and I can relate to him and his,  at least from American standpoint, I'm not even going to compare myself to the rest of the world, but by American standards was poverty.Nathan: I keep a notebook in my pocket at all times. And part of it's, cause I have some memory challenges, but part of is because I hear something or I have a thought and I just want to remember it. But the other day, I wrote there's a certain trauma to poverty and.Almost like a Maslow's hierarchy, right. Growing up in poverty, it comes with a lot of challenges that I don't think people outside would know. One of the quotes that got me was this statement I think it was Howard Zinn the difference between poor folks and sociologists is poor folks know what they're talking about."You know, there's a certain thing you learn in that, that you can only learn from going through it. And I love that, that that helps you connect with Jesus. Who are some of your teachers.Marlena: Oh, that's a good question. Besides, you know, I love the people at Renovaré, but in the context of what we're talking about, I think of Paula who's now with the Lord. She had Alzheimer's when I met her, I was, director of discipleship at my church. And you know, she would sing my name like "Mar-len-a".And I couldn't believe that Paula remembered my name because she had Alzheimer's. I was, you know, I was newer to the church and her eyes would light up when I came by and she'd come give me a hug. And she just taught me a lot. I mean, just the sparkle in her eyes when she saw me and not just me, I know other people, but I thought, you know,  I think that's how God looks at me the way that Paula looks at me.And I talk about it in the book at one point. She got really teary-eyed. One time she was talking about remembering when she was young, cause someone called her a moose, you know, saying she's ugly when she was a young girl, she remembered that and she's was, you know, a tall lady. And, um, what I saw such beauty in her and I said, no, Paula, you're so beautiful.And another time she started crying because she was forgetting. And she was wondering, you know, is this forgetting gonna affect me and my relationship with God? And I said, no. And then I came home and told my husband about that.I asked him, I said, Sean, how do you think the Lord interacts as far as spiritual formation with people that have Alzheimer's, you know, what kind of relationship? He said that Jesus doesn't mind introducing  himself to Paula over and over again, and to other people.And I was just like, Oh my gosh. Yes. That's exactly what, I was just floating with his comment about it because yeah, Jesus, doesn't it mind introducing himself to Paula over and over again in a new, so Paula was one of my teachers.I used to work with migrant farm workers, asylum seekers, inner city youth. Speaking about poverty, you know, every day it's hard, like getting to school and,  just the obstacles that people have to overcome just to do simple things.And over and over, I just saw love for other people, deference to other people, joy, hard work. A lot of the people that we talk about as our teachers, people have stereotypes like lazy, only wanting a handout and most of the poor people I know that I've ever met are very hard workers.Of course there are people that take advantage of the system, but I've seen rich people that take advantage of the system and middle-class. So taking advantage of the system, isn't particularly salient among the poor it's all levels of society. The Catholics talk about this, even the Eastern Orthodox talk about how the poor can show us the face of Christ.It's not like you have some kind of sainthood because you're poor, but I think it's just because of vulnerability and there's nothing to prove, you know, nothing to prove. And so you could be full of the life of Christ because there's not a lot of things blocking that.  I've often thought that in my own life, like, well, I don't really have much to prove.I have no networks I can, rely on or point to this or that. And sometimes I've grieved that because I'm like, well, that would be a great help right now in my life. But then it drives me to God.Nathan: Many of the poor folk I've known are the most generous people. My father-in-law, lived in pretty extreme poverty and we used to send him food. Like we, uh, kind of surprise him and have food delivered to us, to his house.And he'd invite everybody over. He just would have a big party, you know, and I just, I love that. There's something beautiful in that. Um, but do you see that too, in your work with migrant farmers?Marlena: Yes. I, I think there's statistics too. Like, I don't know, per capita or however, the poor are more generous than those with more money and I do see it. The generosity comes from maybe memory, you know what it's like not to have, and you don't want other people to go through that. And you know of other people, maybe like your father-in-law like, Hey, you know, people would enjoy a good meal today. They don't have to go shopping. We're going to provide dinner.I mean, Jesus himself was poor, right? He was so poor and he was generous. Yes, he was God, but  I think about the multiplication of the loaves and the fish. Jesus was like, you know, it's I know it's going to be hard for you guys to get food, so let's multiply the loaves and the fish.And something else I tell people too, Nathan, is that Jesus, everything he spoke he lived out So when he tells us in Matthew six, you know, don't worry about tomorrow, what you will eat or drink, which is a message I have to remind myself of frequently. He said that because he had to consider the birds and the lilies himself, because, you know,  he was poor.And he had to depend on our Heavently Father for food, for his daily bread and that makes it into the Lord's prayer, you know, give us today our daily bread. I think he included that because he had to pray that frequently, whether it's literal daily bread nourishment, or whatever else that we need for our lives, because Mary wasn't rich and, in Luke it talks about how women and others provided out of their purse for the ministry of the disciples.Joseph was probably old when he married Mary and so we don't see any more about him in the Bible after Jesus was 12 years old. So for her to be a widow at that time, she depended on her son to take care of her. So Jesus was caring for his mom.Like you said, your family with your father-in-law. In this case, Jesus was caring for his mom. She was part of his ministry. And so I'm convinced that he knew what it was like to consider the birds and have to depend on the father for the daily bread. For him and his mom.Nathan: Earlier, you mentioned loving our enemies. What does that look like? How did you work that out in the book?Marlena: When I was young, I was in Puerto Rico in the fourth grade and I was almost kidnapped after I got off my bus. I think the person probably would have kidnapped me, but I got off the bus, his car followed me and said, Hey, in Spanish, where's this place.And you know, I'm like a nice person, you know, I'm like, okay. Yeah, it's here. And I went up and the man grabbed my hand and exposed himself and tried to make me touch him, you know?  It was an assault and that picture stayed with me. I was 10 years old.Well, after that, I was in fourth grade. I, you know, I didn't want to be around men. My parents would say, Hey, go to the store or go into the sprint in and get me like a, you know, a milk or whatever. I didn't want to do that. You know, this was  the late eighties.But I remember fifth grade,  we moved back to the mainland of the United States. We lived in this little green trailer and I didn't have much to do after I would do like, whatever chores I had and do homework. So I would read the Bible, like for two to four hours a day, about the ages from 10 to 14.And I think that's what my people have said: you have a divine imagination. Well, I think that's where it came from looking back. But I remember what Jesus said in Matthew 5:44, that you have to forgive your enemies. And  I'm like, okay, that means I have to forgive this man whose face I remember even till this day whose name I will never know.And so I started praying at 11 years old for this man that assaulted me. Because Jesus said, pray for your enemies, you know, like, taking Jesus at his word as a little girl. Cause if you don't forgive others, you won't be forgiven. You know, it also talks about that in there.That's when that practice of praying for your enemies and forgiving them started in my life. So fast-forward, I should say I've worked with farm migrant farm workers who provide our food and  there's a lot of human rights abuses against them and asylum seekers and immigrants.And I know it's  for some people it's a great political issue for them. For me, meeting people and hearing their stories firsthand. I think it's a human rights issue and a biblical issue. And you know, that we have  a certain kind of obligation to them.But because of that, I get attacked by people.  I've been called unChristian, a communist, or, you know, all sorts of  what people consider derogatory words.  And I was like, I just have to pray for people that say things to me. I say you have no idea what you're talking about.You just are acting on  hearsay. I've talked to people in person. And so I have to forgive them for insulting me.And so I have to wrestle with that. To forgive my brothers and sisters, not only for hurting me, I don't know what the word is for that, but when I see them doing harm to the most vulnerable people.Nathan: I have a theory on Jesus' statement to pray for our enemies. That it's as much for us as it is for them. And the reason I say that is because when I do that, it, sets me free. There's something that happens when I really dig in and pray for someone, you know, how we define enemies, it's a tricky word, but, it changes me and  it liberates me from their  nonsense or  abuse. What do you think of that?Marlena: I think you said it so well, and  I think about what kind of spiritual formation and Jesus's humanity, right? Because yes, he was fully God fully, man. Like I think his Spiritual Formation culminated in two things.  In the Garden of Gesthemane when he said not my will, but yours be done when, you know, he said, get me out of this basically but he went through with it.And also on the cross, when he says father, forgive them for they know not what they do. You know, like, so spiritual formation can not be microwave. For him to be able to say when he was being speared,  spit upon, mocked, when his disciples ran away... to be able to forgive his disciples and cook them some fish on the beach afterwards. That was years of culmination.You know, some people ask, well, how can we  forgive our enemies, especially if you've been sexually abused. I want to be very careful that it could take maybe a whole lifetime, or you might get to the point where say, God, I want to be able to do that, but I can't, you know, you're very honest about it.It doesn't always happen right away. And I think it depends on the seriousness of the transgression against you, but I think, yeah, it does change us. And it's one of God's graces and it doesn't happen always right away. And  for some people I've had to pray for years, you know?Cause I think that I'm good and it wells up in me again and I get very upset and then I have to say, okay, God, they claim to be your children to please bless them, even though they're doing so much harm.Nathan: I'll sometimes start with the prayer of  I want to forgive, you know, or, or I want to want to, right? I don't even want to, but I want to be in a place where I would like to and sometimes That's the only place we can start.Marlena: Yeah, yeah. Agreed. Yep.Nathan: For folks reading the book. What do you hope for them to take away from it?Marlena: There's been a lot of people, they're disillusioned with the church for good reason, right? And some people have been, I think, badly taught like that they're, you know, they call it worm theology. Like God just can't stand you and God just... you know, God tolerates you. That's not the God I've known.I talk about one point in the book where my daughter, when she was three and I won't go into the story right now, but it culminates with her saying, so mommy, you're saying, God looks happy at me. God looks happy at me. And I said, yes, God looks happy at you. That was her translation of what we were talking about. God looks at us with love and joy.And so I hope that readers would take that away. And also,  maybe with some of the stories I shared and insights that you can really live like Jesus. There are people that live like Jesus in the world, the saints, these beautiful people, that many of the last will be first.So that's why it's called The Way Up is Down because you know, the world has a way of success, but Jesus way of being lifted up is not the way of the world and that Christians, when they take the way of Jesus. Nouwen called it downward mobility, when they take that way, it talks about in Philippians chapter two kenosis that you might not win accolades from the world, but you will bring great joy to God and you will do much good in the world.So that's, that's my hope.Nathan: It is very backwards. Not just American culture, but church culture. I remember when I was teaching, I used to work with Brother Lawrence's book, Practice of the Presence of God. And, and I remember I had a student go, so wait, he was a dishwasher, right? Yeah, he's a dishwasher. Wait, wait, how come he didn't move up? Why did he stay a dishwasher? You know, he was like kind of a failure. This guy, why didn't he... And I thought it is so ingrained in us that this idea of downward mobility or that there's kind of a nobility in remaining a dishwasher that that was, um, a beautiful thing for him to stay with that.But it is very, very foreign to us.Marlena: Yeah. And it's not always easy because we have this message in the church, right? Like bigger, better numbers.  And it's the way of the world that's ingrained itself in the church, but you're right. That's not always the way of Jesus. I mean it might be for your life, but it's not always.Nathan: How have you reconciled with the church?Marlena: I write a little bit about how I've been hurt by the church. And I haven't been forthright about it, but how I've reconciled with it because I do see saints in everyday life. If I wouldn't have seen people that are like, Jesus, I don't know that I could be a Christian. Because people have asked me  why are you still Christian?I'm like, because I see people that live like Jesus. And so when the people that don't live like Jesus, I said, that's not God, I know Jesus. And I know what he's like, and that's not it. So, my hope and prayer is that I don't ever become the things I despise and that, you know, further down in Philippians two, that hopefully I will shine like one of the stars in the universe.So people give thanks to God, at least that's my prayer.Nathan: Marlena. Thank you so much for your time and your story.Marlena: Thank you so much. I'm glad to be here.

In this episode, Nathan and Ailsa discuss the Book of Job. Timestamps: You can follow our podcast on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast! Apple Podcast: https://apple.co/2L1CbHq Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2XnuDFb Follow our other social media! Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/about.that.bible Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/about.that.bible About That Bible is made by Every Nation Church, New York. Find out more about Every Nation NYC. 003 Job Transcript Ailsa: Welcome to About That Bible with Every Nation NYC, we are here to help you get more out of that Bible. We are reading a plan at the moment and you will find that plan in the notes if you want to follow along too. We're going to discuss different bits as we read along. You can also follow us on Instagram or twitter @AboutThatBible or go to our website everynationnyc.org for all of our podcasts there. But without further ado let's talk about that Bible. My name is Ailsa this is Nathan we're going to talk: Job. Nathan: Alright. Ailsa: I feel like every time we come to talk about a book of the Bible it's always like oh my goodness this is a crazy one, but here we are again Job. Nathan: This one is definitely no exception, it's a beast. Ailsa: Yeah, it's Job. True confession, until very recently, in fact until we did this plan I don't think I'd read the whole of Job. Nathan: Ok. Ailsa: Because it had always been like, Job, this is really depressing and meaty. And I put it off. Nathan: I definitely don't blame you. I think I've only read it in its entirety maybe twice or three times. It's not like the most uplifting thing, is it? Ailsa: No, and that's why we're going to talk about the main point of Job, and it's not a hugely uplifting topic, but here we go. So, I think Job is talking about whether the world works in a just way and whether God is just. Nathan: Yeah! Ailsa: Yeah, let's start by summarizing Job and then we can come back to whether God is just. You know that really small question. Nathan: I mean the simple answer is yes, right? Ailsa: Is it? I think that's what we like to call trite. Nathan: Podcast, done! Ailsa: Trite, simple and trite. Let's try to summarize job first so we know what we're talking about. What is Job? What's going on? Nathan: It's an immense book, it's 40 some odd chapters long if not longer? Ailsa: Yeah. Nathan: And basically we open and God is holding court in heaven. God is surrounded by other spiritual beings. Ailsa: Which you do not get very often in the Bible I should add. Nathan: So yeah, you have this heavenly scene. Ailsa: It's like a God chat, yeah. Nathan: We don't know who's seeing this we don't know who's narrating this but there he is. And out of the midst comes stain and sais... actually, no, God says... How does that start? Ailsa: Well, I think he's like, "oh Job". Nathan: God's just bragging on Job. Ailsa: I think so and then satan's like, he's only good because he wants things from you. Nathan: In any case, either God or satan raises the subject matter of Job and satan’s like, exactly, he's only serving you because you're so good to him God. Ailsa: Yeah, and then we move on to, well, then satan's how about I prove to you that I'm right, God's like how about I prove to you that I'm right and then God's like ok you can go test Job basically. Nathan: Yeah. Ailsa: Then Job has like a terrible time. Nathan: His life goes totally sideways. Ailsa: Terrible. Nathan: Up until that point he'd been a very righteous person. He'd served God, he'd made sacrifices on behalf of his children in case they'd got up to a little mischief while they'd been partying. And I love likes how teenagers, you know, in ancient Hebrew culture. Ailsa: They were also being teenagers. Nathan: Yeah, they're basically the same. And so Job's praying for them, he's praying for his wife, he's working hard, he's living for God the best he can and then everything starts collapsing around him. Literally, I think a house falls on his children, his animals die. Ailsa: Lots of people come and like take away all his different kinds of animals. I think there are different people that come and it's irrelevant but I think it's kinda funny, it's not funny obviously, but I think you know what I mean. Nathan: There are all sorts of calamities and disasters and only one person survives and it's just the messenger and he comes and says, "Job, awful news, everybody died. All your sheep have died, all your camels have died." Messinger after messenger. Ailsa: Yeah, and then his friends pop up. Nathan: He's got three friends. Ailsa: Three friends, they pop up. They're like so good at the beginning, they're like hey we're just going to sit with you because you're like suffering and terrible things. Nathan: They just sit in silence don't they? Ailsa: I'm like, I'm going to write that down, that's good. And then they start, then it starts being this back and forth. RIght so one friend will talk for a bit and then Job will answer. Next friend, Job answers and it's like that for a lot of chapters. Nathan: I think there are three cycles of that. Yes and then a fourth friend turns up out of nowhere. Elihu, something like that. Ailsa: He pops up. Nathan: And he's young and he brash and he gets the job done and he disagrees with Job and he disagrees with Job and he disagrees with the friends, but he honors God. He lifts God up. He has a very high view of God. And what's tempting while we're reading Job and what's hard is that each person is bringing their perspective. Each person is true, but it's not kinda not universally true. Like his friends are saying, well you must have done something wrong and as you're reading it you're like yeah Job has certainly done something wrong. Ailsa: I always think that. Nathan: Yeah, there's no the way that you're perfect. Ailsa: He's a human. Right? Nathan: Yeah. And then Job's like I've done nothing wrong and then Elihu comes and it's just like who do you trust? Who do you believe through the whole thing? Ailsa: Yeah, I'm not sure. Nathan: And you don't really have any clarity through most of the book. Ailsa: No. Nathan: Until, finally, in some of the last chapters, God turns up. Ailsa: Yep. Nathan: And boy does he ever turn up. He comes in in a whirlwind. And basically tells Job, stand up, dress like a man. Ailsa: Dress like a man? Nathan: I think he says that, like, dress yourself like a man. Ailsa: I don't know what that means. Nathan: I don't know. Ailsa: At that point, put a dress on, Right? Nathan: Probably, oh yeah. Moving on. And God just lets him have it, He's like, you're not god, I am, and where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth, where were you when I made it snow. When I made it rain? Have you seen the heavenly storehouses, you know, filled with snow? Have you seen these mountain tops? Have you seen the depths of the ocean? Were you there in deep dark space when I did this and that? And Job is just dumbfounded, there's nothing that he can say. He's done. Ailsa: He's done, God has the last word, and then he basically gives him double back at the end. Nathan: Yep. Ailsa: Which is another hard bit. Nathan: Only after rebuking his friends. He's like you guys, you treated Job wrong, The three friends, Elihu never gets another mention as far as I can remember. Ailsa: I don't think so. Nathan: And then Job, you need to pray for your friends. Ailsa: Yeah. Nathan: So that they can be restored as well. Ailsa: So, Thinking about those friends, because most of Job is about the friends, what do they tell us about whether God is just or whether we're seeing an unjust God? Nathan: His friends have a very simplistic view of the world. Ailsa: Yeah. Nathan: It's very black and white. Either God is good, and therefore God rewards good people or because you're doing so poorly in life, surely you've done something wrong. God's just you're doing bad so you must be the bad guy. It's a very black and white world view. And I think that like, if we ever say, you know, as I did at the start of this video, Yeah, God's just, I've got all the answers. Ailsa: Yeah, you're just being like them. Nathan: No, I want to clarify that, God is just, right? Like I thorough, thorough believe that. But when I say that I have all the answers I've got the worldview that's going to solve everything, pull everything together, what it does is it basically turns you into a judgemental person. Ailsa: Yeah. Nathan: And that's what happens to his friends. Is that they become very judgemental. They start making up stuff, surely you've tortured widows, or you've robbed widows. Surely you've done this, surely you've, you know, not fed the people that are in need that come to you. Surely you've turned them away empty handed. Or something like that. They just make up these horrible accusations. Ailsa: Well, they start trying to work out what Job's been doing wrong. To make sense. Which we still do, right? We still, like to think oh this is happening to someone they are suffering in this way, we like to think we're more sophisticated than this. But we like, we like victim blame. Nathan: Oh yeah. Ailsa: They are like classic victim blamers. Nathan: That's exactly what is happening here. Ailsa: The thing I find interesting though is that they, so at the end, and you did mention this, God is like so ticked off at them. And they've actually stood up, they have like, They have stood up and said God is just, Job you must be wrong. Which, you know we're saying that's not very nice, that's judgemental. But like, they seem like they're on the side of God. But then like, he's really ticked off at them. Like Job basically has to save them. Nathan: That's a great point. Ailsa: What are we supposed to do with that? Like they seem pro-God. Nathan: Well, don't be a judgemental, religious. Oh..  Yeah? Like, oh I've got access to God, therefore, you're doing bad, you must be doing wrong. God is more ticked off and that's like a theme in the bible, Jesus to the Pharisees, Paul to the Galatians. Ailsa: Oh that’s true. It's not like an original to Job moment. Nathan: I mean, yeah it's early in, well, I don't know, we can talk about history about when it was written but yeah, it's a theme through all of the bible isn't it? Ailsa: Yeah. Nathan: God does not like religious bigotry. Ailsa: Yeah. Man, they just think they're doing the right thing though. The fourth friend, He also thinks God is just though. But it is different? Nathan: I don't think he pins it on, he doesn't' pin it on Job. Ailsa: No, I think he's a bit annoyed at Job. I think maybe he's annoyed at Job for how he, how he blames God at one point, I think. Nathan: Well, that's fair enough, God doesn't get mad at Elihu, the fourth friend. Ailsa: No, I don't think so. That's the other thing, like, we see with Job, we see someone who does get annoyed at God. Like God is not annoyed at Job at the end. That's actually interesting. He's annoyed at those friends, he's not annoyed at Job. Job has accused God of possibly being unjust. Nathan: Wow, yeah. So Job has just brought his emotions to God. Ailsa: Yeah. Nathan: After going back and forth with his friends he's like that's it I want to talk to God I want him to prove himself to me. And I think that's something that like King David does. He brings all of his emotions to God. It's similar to what Job does. And I think that God understands like this world is tough and we want to see where he is and what he's doing. But on the other hand, he's also a lot, a lot bigger than we can understand and fathom so we don't always get the answers that we're looking for. Ailsa: No I don't think that you get any of the answers. So like you're left, you read Job and you think, ok so why is this dude suffering? And actually, you're kind of given the answer at the beginning, right?  You've got like God and satan having a chat and you know the reason that job is suffering in this instance is because satan sort of thought that he should have a go at him. And God was like, OK. So you see that, but there's no real reason outside of that. And Job never knows. Like he never gets the answer right? Nathan: No. He doesn't. and he doesn't get an explanation for why he gets everything back. And there's never even an attempt at a reason. Ailsa: No, it's like it's not even bothering to answer that. Nathan: No. Ailsa: And the God and satan bit is very unsatisfactory. Nathan: Oh yeah. And I think that's the point. It's supposed to be unsatisfactory. Ailsa: That's terrible, we hate that. Nathan: Well like, yeah, but like, bad stuff happens and we never get the answer in life. and so that's basically what Job is opening up. The world is not black and white. Good stuff happens to bad people. Bad stuff happens to good people. But that does not make God unjust. Ailsa: Oh man. Nathan: Alright, so we are right now reading through the Bible chronologically. And so it appears kind of halfway kind of after Genesis 11 you go to Job. What we've seen is that there's this satan character, running around, you know, as a snake. Ailsa: That's true. Nathan: And then in Genesis 3, God limits his authority in some way. Like, he says, cursed are you. You're going to be on your belly, eat the dust of the earth. That God in some way limits satan’s authority. And satan doesn't like this. And so in Job what I see is satan saying, Yeah of course people still like you God, you've taken away what I'm allowed to do with them. And it's like if you've ever been using an umbrella on a rainy day, and you're like, has the rain stopped? How bad is it out there? You pull it back. What hits Job is like a welter, a torrential downpour of rain. Like, yeah, satan is still at large, he's still a bad guy, but God got him on lockdown. So he's still able to go around and do his accusing thing and his lying thing but he's not going to just drop a house on your kids. Ailsa: Ok, that makes sense so you've got like, you've got like the limiting of satan in that first bit of Genesis and then you see how that actually plays out on Job. Nathan: So that's the way I see it as we read it chronologically that's what I see happening. Ailsa: Rather than, rather than it being like, God is punishing Job. Nathan: Yes. Ailsa: He just takes his thing away. Nathan: His grace. So like grace is something that we don't deserve. We never earn or deserve God's grace and so God is constantly I believe extending grace to every being on earth, making our lives better than what we deserve all the time. And here in Job we see a sneak peek at what it could be like if God did not limit the evil powers of this world. Ailsa: Yeah. Nathan: So that's what I see when I read it chronologically. Ailsa: Yeah, and where does it normally, what do we learn about the book from where it normally sits in our Bible? Nathan: Normally, it sits with the wisdom literature. And you get Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and Job. And I love the work that the Bible Project did on this explaining the evolution of wisdom literature, they build one on top of the other. So, Proverbs has this very simplistic kind of black and white view of the world. If you do good, good stuff is going to happen to you. If you do bad, if you sleep in, and you don't work then you're going to be poor. And that's mostly true. But there's always the exception. And then Ecclesiastics comes along and says the wicked prosper. What's the point of life? And it kinda tears up the groundwork of Proverbs. And then Job comes along and says, yeah that's all true, but you know what? God's still just. He sits on his throne. His wisdom is way beyond our wisdom and we've got to trust him whether we like it or not. And that's like really really hard. Ailsa: Yeah. Nathan: I think the authors knew that from the very start. And that's why Job struggles with it, that's why his tree black and white friends struggle with it. Elihu never even really gets his head around it. Ailsa: Yeah. Nathan: It's really tough. Ailsa: At least we see represented people struggling with it though. Nathan: Yeah, yeah. Ailsa: It's like, it's ok to like really struggle with it. Nathan: The nature of sin; and I'm thinking Adam and Eve fell and what they did was they said, we're not going to trust you as God, we're going to take our trust from you and pull it inward. All of a sudden, the universal center of right and wrong is going to rest here [in me]. And so when bad things happen to me I'm going to say this is wrong. And God's saying no, the worlds quite messed up now and so to accomplish ultimate good you're going to think that it's wrong. Your little world is going to experience something that does not feel good for you in the moment. Ailsa: That is super hard. Nathan: And so God is asking for us to expand our world and allow our world to be bigger than us in our suffering. Ailsa: Ooo, it's like such a hard one to read. This is why people are like, oh Job. Nathan: Yeah, so Job is super uplifting. But I believe it is because bad stuff is happening. But what Job is saying is that there is reason, there is a point. That God is still in control. And that Romans chapter 8, we bandied about quite a lot, or it can be bandied about, and I don't want to just use it tritely, but I believe it points in, it funnels in to Job here. "All things work together for good for those who love God and are called according to his purposes." God is working stuff for good. Ailsa: But on a much bigger scale than we can comprehend basically. Nathan: Yes it does not mean that at the end of your life you know, on your deathbed, God is going to turn up and be like, well here's why your cat died when you were three, Your granny died when you were seven, you know, your father left you when you were twelve. He's not going to do that. Sometimes we get glimpses of that in the world and most of the time... No, I believe that when you walk with God you do get the narrative kinda unfolding. Ailsa: Do you mean like you do understand more of why things happen sometimes? Nathan: Yes, but you do gotta hold on for a long time. Ailsa: Yeah, and it's not also like, 'like for like'. Like you, you don't get to see like oh, you sin - this happens. Or you're like good - this happens. Like it's more complicated. Nathan: Your cat dies at three so you can go into veterinary school and solve cat AIDS. Ailsa: Or not even that. Like the, if you're a good person, then you get good blessing. Or, you know, you follow God and then you get a good thing. Like what Satan accuses Job at the beginning of only doing it for what he can get out of God. Nathan: Yeah, so we've got to follow God because he's God? Ailsa: Yeah. It kinda seems like that because that's kinda what it says on the end. God's like I am God and bigger than your, any of your stuff. Nathan: Yeah. Ailsa: Yeah. Nathan: He deserves it, he's God and we're not. Even though our heart cries out, "yes I am yes I am." Ailsa: Yeah, I know. We're like but surely I understand and Job's like, you don't understand. Nathan: I've got enough wisdom! Ailsa: And that's Job. Yeah, we get to see a man wrestling with just not understanding. Nathan: Yes. Ailsa: Yeah. And he gets all this stuff back at the end. But it's not because he was good. Right? I think God makes that clear, it's just grace on the end. Nathan: It's just grace. There's all sorts of little droplets of grace all the way through. All the way through Job. Job keeps referencing and alluding to these incredible Christological foreshadowing pieces. Ailsa: What do you mean by 'Christological foreshadowing pieces' because that's a whole bunch of turms. Nathan: So Job keeps using these phrases that the only answer to these phrases is Jesus. The only way that this is ever going to be solved is Jesus. So at one point he's like, 'I wish that I had an advocate who could place his hand on God and place his hand on me.' I'm like, well who's going to touch heaven and earth at the same time? Ailsa: Jesus. Nathan: Jesus. Another point he says, "For I know my Redeemer lives and shall stand upon the earth." Who's this redeemer, who's going to stand on the earth? Jesus. Right? Ailsa: Yeah. Nathan: And then ultimately the way that Job suffers, everything around him dies, he has basically died. LIke to everything, to the world, to his wife, to his kids, to everything around him is dead. And then God says, 'this is the guy who is going to restore these self-righteous friends back to God.' And even Job himself is a little bit like a Christ figure. Ailsa: Yeah, because he keeps being, standing in the gap for these people. Nathan: He stands in the gap for his friends, that's right.  Oh gosh, yeah, for his kids at first. Ailsa: Yeah, for his kids on the front end and then for his friends on the back end, right? Oh, it's all about Jesus. Nathan: It is all about Jesus. Or you can read it. Ailsa: All about Jesus. Nathan: I think Jesus read it all about Jesus. Ailsa: Probably, probably. Still, but, I think we're still left, I think it's all about Jesus, but I think we're still left with it's ok to be grappling with this stuff. Nathan: Yeah, it's a lifelong struggle, it really is. And for somebody who is struggling it's just, you kinda have to hold on, just keep going, trusting that God is good, trusting that your Redeemer lives, has stood upon the earth. That God is crushing suffering. And will one day fully and finally make it right. Ailsa: Yeah and on that note, Job. Nathan:  Yeah, Job it's a struggle. Ailsa: It's a struggle. Nathan: The struggle is real. Ailsa: It's an important one though because the struggle is real in real life. Job, I don't want to say done because that's not Job done. Done. Nathan: Job, the conversation is opened. Ailsa: Yeah. Nathan: We're finished opening the conversation. Yeah that's a good way of putting it. Ailsa: And Job we're finished opening your conversation, and done. Nathan: Moving on. Ailsa: That was About That Bible with Every Nation NYC. You can follow along the same reading plan as us and you'll find the link for that in the notes and you can read too. Don't forget you can also follow us on Instagram and twitter @AboutThatBible and you can find all our podcasts at everynationnyc.org or all the places that you can find podcasts. See you later guys. SHOW TRANSCRIPT: Ailsa: Welcome to About That Bible with Every Nation NYC, we are here to help you get more out of that Bible. We are reading a plan at the moment and you will find that plan in the notes if you want to follow along too. We're going to discuss different bits as we read along. You can also follow us on Instagram or twitter @AboutThatBible or go to our website everynationnyc.org for all of our podcasts there. But without further ado let's talk about that Bible. My name is Ailsa this is Nathan we're going to talk: Job. Nathan: Alright. Ailsa: I feel like every time we come to talk about a book of the Bible it's always like oh my goodness this is a crazy one, but here we are again Job. Nathan: This one is definitely no exception, it's a beast. Ailsa: Yeah, it's Job. True confession, until very recently, in fact until we did this plan I don't think I'd read the whole of Job. Nathan: Ok. Ailsa: Because it had always been like, Job, this is really depressing and meaty. And I put it off. Nathan: I definitely don't blame you. I think I've only read it in its entirety maybe twice or three times. It's not like the most uplifting thing, is it? Ailsa: No, and that's why we're going to talk about the main point of Job, and it's not a hugely uplifting topic, but here we go. So, I think Job is talking about whether the world works in a just way and whether God is just. Nathan: Yeah! Ailsa: Yeah, let's start by summarizing Job and then we can come back to the weather God is just. You know that really small question. Nathan: I mean the simple answer is yes, right? Ailsa: Is it? I think that's what we like to call trite. Nathan: Podcast, done! Ailsa: Trite, simple and trite. Let's try to summarize job first so we know what we're talking about. What is Job? What's going on? Nathan: It's an immense book, it's 40 some odd chapters long if not longer? Ailsa: Yeah. Nathan: And basically we open and God is holding court in heaven. God is surrounded by other spiritual beings. Ailsa: Which you do not get very often in the Bible I should add. Nathan: So yeah, you have this heavenly scene. Ailsa: It's like a God chat, yeah. Nathan: We don't know who's seeing this we don't know who's narrating this but there he is. And out of the midst comes stain and sais... actually, no, God says... How does that start? Ailsa: Well, I think he's like, "oh Job". Nathan: God's just bragging on Job. Ailsa: I think so and then satan's like, he's only good because he wants things from you. Nathan: In any case, either God or satan raises the subject matter of Job and satan’s like, exactly, he's only serving you because you're so good to him God. Ailsa: Yeah, and then we move on to, well, then satan's how about I prove to you that I'm right, God's like how about I prove to you that I'm right and then God's like ok you can go test Job basically. Nathan: Yeah. Ailsa: Then Job has like a terrible time. Nathan: His life goes totally sideways. Ailsa: Terrible. Nathan: Up until that point he'd been a very righteous person. He'd served God, he'd made sacrifices on behalf of his children in case they'd got up to a little mischief while they'd been partying. And I love likes how teenagers, you know, in ancient Hebrew culture. Ailsa: They were also being teenagers. Nathan: Yeah, they're basically the same. And so Job's praying for them, he's praying for his wife, he's working hard, he's living for God the best he can and then everything starts collapsing around him. Literally, I think a house falls on his children, his animals die. Ailsa: Lots of people come and like take away all his different kinds of animals. I think there are different people that come and it's irrelevant but I think it's kinda funny, it's not funny obviously, but I think you know what I mean. Nathan: There are all sorts of calamities and disasters and only one person survives and it's just the messenger and he comes and says, "Job, awful news, everybody died. All your sheep have died, all your camels have died." Messinger after messenger. Ailsa: Yeah, and then his friends pop up. Nathan: He's got three friends. Ailsa: Three friends, they pop up. They're like so good at the beginning, they're like hey we're just going to sit with you because you're like suffering and terrible things. Nathan: They just sit in silence don't they? Ailsa: I'm like, I'm going to write that down, that's good. And then they start, then it starts being this back and forth. RIght so one friend will talk for a bit and then Job will answer. Next friend, Job answers and it's like that for a lot of chapters. Nathan: I think there are three cycles of that. Yes and then a fourth friend turns up out of nowhere. Elihu, something like that. Ailsa: He pops up. Nathan: And he's young and he brash and he gets the job done and he disagrees with Job and he disagrees with Job and he disagrees with the friends, but he honors God. He lifts God up. He has a very high view of God. And what's tempting while we're reading Job and what's hard is that each person is bringing their perspective. Each person is true, but it's not kinda not universally true. Like his friends are saying, well you must have done something wrong and as you're reading it you're like yeah Job has certainly done something wrong. Ailsa: I always think that. Nathan: Yeah, there's no the way that you're perfect. Ailsa: He's a human. Right? Nathan: Yeah. And then Job's like I've done nothing wrong and then Elihu comes and it's just like who do you trust? Who do you believe through the whole thing? Ailsa: Yeah, I'm not sure. Nathan: And you don't really have any clarity through most of the book. Ailsa: No. Nathan: Until, finally, in some of the last chapters, God turns up. Ailsa: Yep. Nathan: And boy does he ever turn up. He comes in in a whirlwind. And basically tells Job, stand up, dress like a man. Ailsa: Dress like a man? Nathan: I think he says that, like, dress yourself like a man. Ailsa: I don't know what that means. Nathan: I don't know. Ailsa: At that point, put a dress on, Right? Nathan: Probably, oh yeah. Moving on. And God just lets him have it, He's like, you're not god, I am, and where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth, where were you when I made it snow. When I made it rain? Have you seen the heavenly storehouses, you know, filled with snow? Have you seen these mountain tops? Have you seen the depths of the ocean? Were you there in deep dark space when I did this and that? And Job is just dumbfounded, there's nothing that he can say. He's done. Ailsa: He's done, God has the last word, and then he basically gives him double back at the end. Nathan: Yep. Ailsa: Which is another hard bit. Nathan: Only after rebuking his friends. He's like you guys, you treated Job wrong, The three friends, Elihu never gets another mention as far as I can remember. Ailsa: I don't think so. Nathan: And then Job, you need to pray for your friends. Ailsa: Yeah. Nathan: So that they can be restored as well. Ailsa: So, Thinking about those friends, because most of Job is about the friends, what do they tell us about whether God is just or whether we're seeing an unjust God? Nathan: His friends have a very simplistic view of the world. Ailsa: Yeah. Nathan: It's very black and white. Either God is good, and therefore God rewards good people or because you're doing so poorly in life, surely you've done something wrong. God's just you're doing bad so you must be the bad guy. It's a very black and white world view. And I think that like, if we ever say, you know, as I did at the start of this video, Yeah, God's just, I've got all the answers. Ailsa: Yeah, you're just being like them. Nathan: No, I want to clarify that, God is just, right? Like I thorough, thorough believe that. But when I say that I have all the answers I've got the worldview that's going to solve everything, pull everything together, what it does is it basically turns you into a judgemental person. Ailsa: Yeah. Nathan: And that's what happens to his friends. Is that they become very judgemental. They start making up stuff, surely you've tortured widows, or you've robbed widows. Surely you've done this, surely you've, you know, not fed the people that are in need that come to you. Surely you've turned them away empty handed. Or something like that. They just make up these horrible accusations. Ailsa: Well, they start trying to work out what Job's been doing wrong. To make sense. Which we still do, right? We still, like to think oh this is happening to someone they are suffering in this way, we like to think we're more sophisticated than this. But we like, we like victim blame. Nathan: Oh yeah. Ailsa: They are like classic victim blamers. Nathan: That's exactly what is happening here. Ailsa: The thing I find interesting though is that they, so at the end, and you did mention this, God is like so ticked off at them. And they've actually stood up, they have like, They have stood up and said God is just, Job you must be wrong. Which, you know we're saying that's not very nice, that's judgemental. But like, they seem like they're on the side of God. But then like, he's really ticked off at them. Like Job basically has to save them. Nathan: That's a great point. Ailsa: What are we supposed to do with that? Like they seem pro-God. Nathan: Well, don't be a judgemental, religious. Oh..  Yeah? Like, oh I've got access to God, therefore, you're doing bad, you must be doing wrong. God is more ticked off and that's like a theme in the bible, Jesus to the Pharisees, Paul to the Galatians. Ailsa: Oh that’s true. It's not like an original to Job moment. Nathan: I mean, yeah it's early in, well, I don't know, we can talk about history about when it was written but yeah, it's a theme through all of the bible isn't it? Ailsa: Yeah. Nathan: God does not like religious bigotry. Ailsa: Yeah. Man, they just think they're doing the right thing though. The fourth friend, He also thinks God is just though. But it is different? Nathan: I don't think he pins it on, he doesn't' pin it on Job. Ailsa: No, I think he's a bit annoyed at Job. I think maybe he's annoyed at Job for how he, how he blames God at one point, I think. Nathan: Well, that's fair enough, God doesn't get mad at Elihu, the fourth friend. Ailsa: No, I don't think so. That's the other thing, like, we see with Job, we see someone who does get annoyed at God. Like God is not annoyed at Job at the end. That's actually interesting. He's annoyed at those friends, he's not annoyed at Job. Job has accused God of possibly being unjust. Nathan: Wow, yeah. So Job has just brought his emotions to God. Ailsa: Yeah. Nathan: After going back and forth with his friends he's like that's it I want to talk to God I want him to prove himself to me. And I think that's something that like King David does. He brings all of his emotions to God. It's similar to what Job does. And I think that God understands like this world is tough and we want to see where he is and what he's doing. But on the other hand, he's also a lot, a lot bigger than we can understand and fathom so we don't always get the answers that we're looking for. Ailsa: No I don't think that you get any of the answers. So like you're left, you read Job and you think, ok so why is this dude suffering? And actually, you're kind of given the answer at the beginning, right?  You've got like God and satan having a chat and you know the reason that job is suffering in this instance is because satan sort of thought that he should have a go at him. And God was like, OK. So you see that, but there's no real reason outside of that. And Job never knows. Like he never gets the answer right? Nathan: No. He doesn't. and he doesn't get an explanation for why he gets everything back. And there's never even an attempt at a reason. Ailsa: No, it's like it's not even bothering to answer that. Nathan: No. Ailsa: And the God and satan bit is very unsatisfactory. Nathan: Oh yeah. And I think that's the point. It's supposed to be unsatisfactory. Ailsa: That's terrible, we hate that. Nathan: Well like, yeah, but like, bad stuff happens and we never get the answer in life. and so that's basically what Job is opening up. The world is not black and white. Good stuff happens to bad people. Bad stuff happens to good people. But that does not make God unjust. Ailsa: Oh man. Nathan: Alright, so we are right now reading through the Bible chronologically. And so it appears kind of halfway kind of after Genesis 11 you go to Job. What we've seen is that there's this satan character, running around, you know, as a snake. Ailsa: That's true. Nathan: And then in Genesis 3, God limits his authority in some way. Like, he says, cursed are you. You're going to be on your belly, eat the dust of the earth. That God in some way limits satan’s authority. And satan doesn't like this. And so in Job what I see is satan saying, Yeah of course people still like you God, you've taken away what I'm allowed to do with them. And it's like if you've ever been using an umbrella on a rainy day, and you're like, has the rain stopped? How bad is it out there? You pull it back. What hits Job is like a welter, a torrential downpour of rain. Like, yeah, satan is still at large, he's still a bad guy, but God got him on lockdown. So he's still able to go around and do his accusing thing and his lying thing but he's not going to just drop a house on your kids. Ailsa: Ok, that makes sense so you've got like, you've got like the limiting of satan in that first bit of Genesis and then you see how that actually plays out on Job. Nathan: So that's the way I see it as we read it chronologically that's what I see happening. Ailsa: Rather than, rather than it being like, God is punishing Job. Nathan: Yes. Ailsa: He just takes his thing away. Nathan: His grace. So like grace is something that we don't deserve. We never earn or deserve God's grace and so God is constantly I believe extending grace to every being on earth, making our lives better than what we deserve all the time. And here in Job we see a sneak peek at what it could be like if God did not limit the evil powers of this world. Ailsa: Yeah. Nathan: So that's what I see when I read it chronologically. Ailsa: Yeah, and where does it normally, what do we learn about the book from where it normally sits in our Bible? Nathan: Normally, it sits with the wisdom literature. And you get Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and Job. And I love the work that the Bible Project did on this explaining the evolution of wisdom literature, they build one on top of the other. So, Proverbs has this very simplistic kind of black and white view of the world. If you do good, good stuff is going to happen to you. If you do bad, if you sleep in, and you don't work then you're going to be poor. And that's mostly true. But there's always the exception. And then Ecclesiastics comes along and says the wicked prosper. What's the point of life? And it kinda tears up the groundwork of Proverbs. And then Job comes along and says, yeah that's all true, but you know what? God's still just. He sits on his throne. His wisdom is way beyond our wisdom and we've got to trust him whether we like it or not. And that's like really really hard. Ailsa: Yeah. Nathan: I think the authors knew that from the very start. And that's why Job struggles with it, that's why his tree black and white friends struggle with it. Elihu never even really gets his head around it. Ailsa: Yeah. Nathan: It's really tough. Ailsa: At least we see represented people struggling with it though. Nathan: Yeah, yeah. Ailsa: It's like, it's ok to like really struggle with it. Nathan: The nature of sin; and I'm thinking Adam and Eve fell and what they did was they said, we're not going to trust you as God, we're going to take our trust from you and pull it inward. All of a sudden, the universal center of right and wrong is going to rest here [in me]. And so when bad things happen to me I'm going to say this is wrong. And God's saying no, the worlds quite messed up now and so to accomplish ultimate good you're going to think that it's wrong. Your little world is going to experience something that does not feel good for you in the moment. Ailsa: That is super hard. Nathan: And so God is asking for us to expand our world and allow our world to be bigger than us in our suffering. Ailsa: Ooo, it's like such a hard one to read. This is why people are like, oh Job. Nathan: Yeah, so Job is super uplifting. But I believe it is because bad stuff is happening. But what Job is saying is that there is reason, there is a point. That God is still in control. And that Romans chapter 8, we bandied about quite a lot, or it can be bandied about, and I don't want to just use it tritely, but I believe it points in, it funnels in to Job here. "All things work together for good for those who love God and are called according to his purposes." God is working stuff for good. Ailsa: But on a much bigger scale than we can comprehend basically. Nathan: Yes it does not mean that at the end of your life you know, on your deathbed, God is going to turn up and be like, well here's why your cat died when you were three, Your granny died when you were seven, you know, your father left you when you were twelve. He's not going to do that. Sometimes we get glimpses of that in the world and most of the time... No, I believe that when you walk with God you do get the narrative kinda unfolding. Ailsa: Do you mean like you do understand more of why things happen sometimes? Nathan: Yes, but you do gotta hold on for a long time. Ailsa: Yeah, and it's not also like, 'like for like'. Like you, you don't get to see like oh, you sin - this happens. Or you're like good - this happens. Like it's more complicated. Nathan: Your cat dies at three so you can go into veterinary school and solve cat AIDS. Ailsa: Or not even that. Like the, if you're a good person, then you get good blessing. Or, you know, you follow God and then you get a good thing. Like what Satan accuses Job at the beginning of only doing it for what he can get out of God. Nathan: Yeah, so we've got to follow God because he's God? Ailsa: Yeah. It kinda seems like that because that's kinda what it says on the end. God's like I am God and bigger than your, any of your stuff. Nathan: Yeah. Ailsa: Yeah. Nathan: He deserves it, he's God and we're not. Even though our heart cries out, "yes I am yes I am." Ailsa: Yeah, I know. We're like but surely I understand and Job's like, you don't understand. Nathan: I've got enough wisdom! Ailsa: And that's Job. Yeah, we get to see a man wrestling with just not understanding. Nathan: Yes. Ailsa: Yeah. And he gets all this stuff back at the end. But it's not because he was good. Right? I think God makes that clear, it's just grace on the end. Nathan: It's just grace. There's all sorts of little droplets of grace all the way through. All the way through Job. Job keeps referencing and alluding to these incredible Christological foreshadowing pieces. Ailsa: What do you mean by 'Christological foreshadowing pieces' because that's a whole bunch of turms. Nathan: So Job keeps using these phrases that the only answer to these phrases is Jesus. The only way that this is ever going to be solved is Jesus. So at one point he's like, 'I wish that I had an advocate who could place his hand on God and place his hand on me.' I'm like, well who's going to touch heaven and earth at the same time? Ailsa: Jesus. Nathan: Jesus. Another point he says, "For I know my Redeemer lives and shall stand upon the earth." Who's this redeemer, who's going to stand on the earth? Jesus. Right? Ailsa: Yeah. Nathan: And then ultimately the way that Job suffers, everything around him dies, he has basically died. LIke to everything, to the world, to his wife, to his kids, to everything around him is dead. And then God says, 'this is the guy who is going to restore these self-righteous friends back to God.' And even Job himself is a little bit like a Christ figure. Ailsa: Yeah, because he keeps being, standing in the gap for these people. Nathan: He stands in the gap for his friends, that's right.  Oh gosh, yeah, for his kids at first. Ailsa: Yeah, for his kids on the front end and then for his friends on the back end, right? Oh, it's all about Jesus. Nathan: It is all about Jesus. Or you can read it. Ailsa: All about Jesus. Nathan: I think Jesus read it all about Jesus. Ailsa: Probably, probably. Still, but, I think we're still left, I think it's all about Jesus, but I think we're still left with it's ok to be grappling with this stuff. Nathan: Yeah, it's a lifelong struggle, it really is. And for somebody who is struggling it's just, you kinda have to hold on, just keep going, trusting that God is good, trusting that your Redeemer lives, has stood upon the earth. That God is crushing suffering. And will one day fully and finally make it right. Ailsa: Yeah and on that note, Job. Nathan:  Yeah, Job it's a struggle. Ailsa: It's a struggle. Nathan: The struggle is real. Ailsa: It's an important one though because the struggle is real in real life. Job, I don't want to say done because that's not Job done. Done. Nathan: Job, the conversation is opened. Ailsa: Yeah. Nathan: We're finished opening the conversation. Yeah that's a good way of putting it. Ailsa: And Job we're finished opening your conversation, and done. Nathan: Moving on. Ailsa: That was About That Bible with Every Nation NYC. You can follow along the same reading plan as us and you'll find the link for that in the notes and you can read too. Don't forget you can also follow us on Instagram and twitter @AboutThatBible and you can find all our podcasts at everynationnyc.org or all the places that you can find podcasts. See you later guys.

For our first entrepreneur acquisition update episode, we are speaking to Nathan Singh, a buyer who made a purchase through Quiet Light eighteen months back. Nathan is a great example of how a buyer can get a good deal and beat out other buyers just by being personable and investing in the seller. It turns out that it's not always the person who has an all-cash offer on the table that wins the deal. Having a Nathan was more appealing and likable to the seller, won out on a deal, and today we are hearing all about how the acquisition transition has gone for him. Episode Highlights: Nathan tells us all about the two WordPress plugins he bought and what each does. Any regrets regarding the multiple and the use of an SBA loan for the transaction. The company growth rate and any challenges Nathan's faced. Where the growth has come in and what he attributes that growth to. Staff retention and how the transition is going within the staff since the original transition period. Nathan's tips for an easier transition. The importance of involving the customer in order to create a relevant product road map. The biggest challenges and successes of the businesses. Things Nathan has implemented to ignite that growth. Way's Nathan keeps his relaxed disposition. Growth Goals for the next 12-24 months. Nathan's 3P's advice to entrepreneurs looking to strike out and acquire a business. Transcription: Mark: Joe, about a year ago you had Nathan Singh on the podcast. Nathan was a really good example of how a buyer can get a good deal, beat out buyers that maybe have a little bit of a stronger position with their offer or if they're a cash buyer just by being kind and generous and investing more importantly in the person that's selling the business. And I guess it's time for an update from him. Joe: Yeah, Nathan did a great job. His seller was Syed Balkhi. He owns Opt-In Monster. That's not the one we sold but we sold two of his WordPress plugin sites which are essentially SaaS businesses and Nathan beat out a full priced all cash buyer with a full price SBA deal where Syed agreed to carry a 10% seller note which was pretty substantial based upon the size of the business. And it's a story I've told often in the different events that we go to and here on the podcast so sorry for folks hearing it. I'm repeating it but yeah the first podcast we did with Nathan was all about that and the transition and training and things of that nature and we're doing an update. I think this is probably our first entrepreneur acquisition update. And he talks about what it's been like for the last 12 months; some of the wins, some of the losses, some of the challenges, the team and things of that nature. It's a great episode to see what people have done. I think really probably more like 18 months later. I think we sold it to Nathan in the fall of '17. Mark: Yeah, I get asked all the time like do you guys follow up with people that have bought these sites and what does it look like a little bit after. And frankly, we don't do enough update follow up with people who have bought so this is good. I'm glad that we are doing this with somebody we're doing on the podcast live so that people can actually hear how the acquisition has gone a year and a half later. Let's get right into it I want to hear from Nathan. Joe: One more thing I want to just shout out a reminder this new intro that we have, we've got some movie quotes in there. If you can figure out what the movie quote is for the intro go back and rewind, listen to it, put it down in the show notes and we'll give a call out to you in the next episode. Joe: Hey, folks Joe Valley here from Quiet Light Brokerage and today we have our first ever Quiet Light update or acquisition update. We've got Nathan Singh on the podcast; Nathan, welcome. Nathan: Hey Joe. Joe: Good to be back, good to have you back man. I tell your story often. I share the story that it's not always the person who has an all cash full price offer that wins the deal and that being likable is one of those intangible very, very important factors. And for those that didn't listen to the podcast that we did with Nathan, he … I want to say won a deal where someone was bringing all cash to the table at a full price deal and Nathan came to the table just being more likable. He happened to go to the same school as the seller Syed Balkhi. I know it's the Gators, is that … wait a second, hold on, I'm going to put on the hat because I have it. I have it. There it is. Nathan: There you go. That's the right one. Joe: And I didn't plan this I just happened to have the hat up in the cabin. It's been there since fall of 2017. So it's … I'm going to get it wrong and Syed he should … he sighed so loudly when I got it wrong. Is it Florida State? Nathan: No, I would have sighed again, real loudly. Yes, University of Florida. Joe: I'm sorry. Nathan: [inaudible 00:04:41.8] Joe: There it is. There was obviously a quick connection between you and Syed on the conference calls because you both went to Florida State. Nathan: University of Florida, not Florida State. Joe: Okay. Folks, obviously I don't pay attention to schools in Florida. I'm from the Northeast originally and we don't follow our college teams at all. Now for those watching the video, my hair looks great. Okay, I just took the hat off. You connected with him on the school but you also connected with him in terms of the way that you wanted to keep the staff in place and take care of them and that it becomes a family or an extended family. And that just really resonated with him and he didn't want to call the end with you whereas the all cash buyer it was all about the fact that he was all cash he could do a quick close and these types of things but it was a little rough around the edges. Syed believed in you, trusted in you, and actually took an SBA deal where he had to not be all cash, he got 90% and so he carried a pretty substantial seller note that won't be paid in full for … I don't remember the exact terms of the deal but probably a balloon payment in year five along those lines. Does that sound about right? Nathan: Yeah. Joe: Alright. So you bought Soliloquy and Envira Gallery. Can you tell the audience a little bit about both of those businesses and what they're all about and what they do? Nathan: Yeah sure. So both of those businesses are pretty similar in the sense that they are WordPress plugins. Envira Gallery is basically a gallery plugin. That's a really simplified way to put it but it's really a photo management system. And if you Google best WordPress gallery plugins you're probably going to see that in just about every result you see. Soliloquy same deal. It's a slider plugin. Essentially if you've ever seen sliding pictures and things like that in PDFs and videos that's what Soliloquy does. But essentially it just makes developers and designers lives a lot easier when they're developing this sort of thing. That's not something they really want to get into so it just streamlines the whole process. The whole gallery management system is there. And it can display multiple galleries in pictures and sliders in a very professional way. And especially for photographers, that's a big deal. And that's what Envira Gallery does. Joe: Did you have a lot of experience, direct experience in WordPress and plugins and things of that nature before buying the business? Nathan: Not at all. At least some people actually have worked in WordPress to some extent whether they've blogged or … I've had very minimal. I've looked at the backend years ago at one point I'm like no way. So WordPress has come a long way since then. A lot of people who have … who used WordPress and have been keeping abreast of that news, Gutenberg came out, what it did is essentially went straight for the head of Wix and Shopify and some of the really easy to use platforms for building websites. So Gutenberg is that which is a WordPress site builder. It's built in. It's made by WordPress. So that's the main thing for all users, now you can get in the backend. It makes it a lot easier. But no previous to that I was pretty new to it. I didn't really understand the dynamics and the market but the only thing that I had that was slightly close to that is I developed an app before in iOS. And so it was again it was being a part of this community and having some community standards when you have plugins that are uploaded to the depository. Joe: Okay. So you were an entrepreneur. You did sell a business. I sold it for you prior to buying this one but no WordPress experience. You bought it … this business with an SBA loan and it paid a what I would say is a fair multiple. A lot of folks might say I think it's strong. I won't say it. You're welcome to say if you want to. But do you have any regrets in terms of the multiple and the use of an SBA loan in the purchase of this business? Nathan: No I don't think so. Regarding the multiple, we did pay a strong multiple. I knew that going in but I also knew going in … I've gone through hundreds of business over the past few years, I talked to owner things like that. In order to get those businesses kind of like with Envira Gallery and Soliloquy where the churn was pretty good … it's essentially a SaaS business. It's been well maintained. It comes from a good pedigree by way of Syed Balkhi. So all those things played a huge part in me wanting to go ahead and stretch what I was looking to do in that multiple. But on the same end when you're doing an SBA it made that decision a whole lot easier as well. So given the SBA process, I mean I've talked about that in the last podcast that we did as well it was … it's come a long way. And so for me having gone through the trenches and years and years of trying to get SBA loans for businesses with no assets and getting to that point and seeing it streamlined with a guy like Stephen Speer and kind of what Bank United did, it's just … I mean it was like a dream to go through that really quickly. But yeah I mean we're here year later and I don't regret it. The only thing I will say that I kind of … was a thing I didn't sort of anticipate is how quickly the interest rate did change. And it does change year after year but it wasn't so drastic that it affected the business in any way. But it did increase just a bit there so. Joe: Your loan had a variable interest rate. Nathan: I think it was more as a result to the Fed increasing. Joe: Okay. Nathan: It was something that I was aware of but it was just political things happened and it increased a little bit there. Joe: Okay. Alright so why don't you tell us how things are going? Are you seeing the business … what, we closed in the fall of 2017 so it's been a little over 18 months, have you seen the business grow? Are you challenged by anything or is it growing year over year at this point? Nathan: Yes, so it is growing. It's a pretty healthy double digit growth. Joe: Double digit growth, okay. Nathan: So no complaints there. Challenges are really again coming and yeah I've been pretty much like industry agnostic every business I got into. Like I usually know nothing about it and I prefer it that way in some cases. And so coming in and learning it I've been attending the Word Camp. I went to Word Camp in US. I went to Word Camp Miami and really connecting with the people that are shaping where WordPress is going. And just some quick stats for people that like numbers, WordPress was around like 25% or so in all the websites in the world pretty much and now they're around 33 or 35% and that's continuing to grow. And just about every major web site that you probably visit is on WordPress. So the fact that that market share is growing there's … that's helped a lot with the organic growth as well. Joe: Is that US growth or a combination of US and international? Nathan: I think it's a combination of both it's like it's used in the world but definitely United States I think that WordPress has a pretty solid share there. Joe: You know it's interesting that's not something that we zeroed in on in the client interview with Syed in terms of WordPress growth. Is it something you thought about prior to and during due diligence prior to the LOI and due diligence or is it just worked out that way that you bought essentially a SaaS business on a platform that is growing? Nathan: Yeah, I think it was a little bit of both. So I understood that WordPress was … at that time the numbers haven't been released. The numbers are officially sold on Word Camp US or just before. So the actual numbers I didn't really know at what rate it was growing but I did know that just the nature of the open source WordPress community, the fact that they're building a bond and we talked about … a little about Gutenberg during the acquisition as well but just having seeing the route that they were going in relation to all these other paid sites, and what the paid platforms did to me it made sense that WordPress is going to continue to grow. It's got a foundation to expand on and so it did play a little … not a significant amount in terms of the actual business acquisition. Joe: Excellent. One of the big reasons why you and Syed are working together now was that you were going to bring the staff over, keep everybody involved and you worked remotely from a home office whereas everybody else I think does as well. How has that transition worked out in terms of the staff and you and are you still working together? Nathan: Yeah, great. Yeah, it's been great so we talked a little bit about this again in that previous interview but there was kind of a bumpy ride with the staff. Again full time they've been with the previous company for several years and they were part of a larger outfit. So there were some worry there that it's just going to be us, essentially four folks transferring over to a completely new owner; my smaller company, how is that all going to work out? I think that just … it was a trust thing and I think after a couple of weeks that they saw that I was in the trenches with them and I was really working to make their lives easier, making sure they're taken care of. You know we went on a retreat, we stayed in Austin, we stayed in a big house; an Airbnb together, really got a chance to bond and we're doing it again this year as well. I think those things all sort of helped build that trust. I mean from where we were to point one just like in any transition when you're taking people's livelihoods and basically giving it to this owner that's completely new and they've never met there's always that kind of anxiety and stuff. But we've come a long way in that time and I'm happy to say that pretty much the entire team is still in place. One person did move on to another opportunity but outside of that, the core folks are still there. Joe: Oh, that's great to hear. Syed is probably happy with that as well. As far as the training and transition goes I know that normally it's up to 40 hours over the first 90 days after closing is the standard in the asset purchase agreement, have you needed to reach out to Syed and other folks that are in the upper level management side or were of this business beyond that transition and training period so that you just reached out if you had a quick question that didn't come up in the first 90 days? Nathan: Yeah, I think it was that. It was the first maybe really the first month or two is the bulk of the questions and stuff. Syed was really good about it. We went through training together. Thomas the co-founder was there as well or actually the founder. And so we recorded those conversations, went through each one of the processes and so I had all that. That helped tremendously so if you are selling try doing that. Go through recorded conversations and go through the process of what you do day to day and that really helps for them to not have to ask any questions. They can just look at the video again. Joe: Oh, it's a great idea and we use a Chrome extension called Loom, L-O-O-M on a daily basis when a broker has a question for me or I have a question for someone else they often just record their screen and send that. What software do you use? Nathan: We use Zoom. Joe: Better. Okay. We're on Zoom now and we're recording. Fortunately, as you all will hear in an episode or two I just did a podcast this week. I jokingly said it's the best one I've ever done but I forgot to hit record. So we'll be doing it again next week but I'm sure the guest will bring that up in the podcast for sure. Alright, let's talk about the biggest challenges that you have had since buying the business back in the fall of 2017. Nathan: Yeah, I would say the biggest challenges for me just like with any other business is kind of getting on that horse and riding it. It was just that the day to day stuff, making sure there was no loose ends that I was missing. I think aside from that it was really that there was not a strong product roadmap going forward. So everything would have gone well until up until that point and I think the team was kind of like well we're just fixing stuff how long do we want to just continue just fixing stuff day to day? And so that was just like kind of shaving a product roadmap, again I'm coming in super fresh so there's not a whole lot I can bring to it in terms of this is exactly what we need to do to take us to the next level, right? But the great thing is since I run other businesses and you kind of get a process within yourself that you can apply to these other businesses and for me, it was like let's ask the customers. And that's exactly what we did. We went straight to the customers, put out a survey; short, less than 60 seconds to complete. What are the features you like most, what do you want to see, how are we doing, stuff like that and they let us have it in a good way mostly. Joe: In a good way, okay. Nathan: And so the great thing is that they were happy with this feature set and they provided some stuff that would make them much more happier. And so that is what we're working towards right now. Joe: So they gave you that product roadmap and then your team is working on that. You're not working on it, you're just visionary and they're actually doing the actual work itself, right? Nathan: Yeah, you're right the developers … you know what I did is basically help create prioritize the roadmap. And so the things we have to do first which is we got to rebuild some of our functions and things like that. That's the most important part; to keep … to build on that foundation. And then outside of that, it's going to be basically hitting those priority items and then doing those in truncheons as we move along based on that. Joe: What would you say are your biggest successes or triumphs? Things that maybe they were a challenge but you've overcome them and see that it's maybe something that kept you up at night but it's changed and it's a big part of your business now. Anything like that? Nathan: I think for me it's been a little bit of the marketing, kind of the way to take the market. WordPress is a little bit different in the sense that we have three versions that are on this .org repository. They've got somewhere in the range of 150 to 180,000 active users or active installs, probably more than that with Soliloquy. And so there's not a lot of data we can gather. And up until recently there wasn't a lot of … there's not a funnel that you can put them through to bring them over to the paid versions because again it's actively monitored and it's a lot different than if you have a trial version and you're moving them on to a paid version of the funnel. So I think the challenge was trading out ways to get around that and still playing by the rules. So again opt-ins we've recently put in opt-ins in the free version that wasn't something that we could do previously but things in WordPress community has changed. So that's going to be a huge boom for us. Aside from that kind of marketing directly to the WordPress base, a lot of designer and phyto developers that are used to a certain thing. So one thing they weren't used to was re-occurring payments, annual subscriptions and things like that but honestly, it's become something of paramount importance to anyone that's running plugins that they have to be running a SaaS type program in order to survive or else you won't be able to make it. Joe: Have you changed the payment system with these two products? Have you changed the way that the customers are paying for it? Nathan: The payments have stayed the same. I think a lot of it was showing them the value of continuing that. Joe: Okay. Nathan: Because again WordPress is a little bit tricky because once you pay for it once you basically own it for life. Joe: I got you. Nathan: So here that is really … is bringing in those value added updates and the value added support; the source support is probably like number two on our most celebrated feature of Envira Gallery and Soliloquy. We get it all and we saw it in the survey as well. So making sure that we're doing everything we can for that customer experience just from the support standpoint and not only at the stuff that we're doing as far as updates and things like that. Joe: So you really brought your marketing experience and expertise into the business and that's how you're triumphing in a sense. Is that what it is attributable to the growth that you've seen, the double digit growth or is it that it was going that way and you're just on for the ride and making sure you don't break it. Nathan: Yeah, I think there's a balance between those. So initially … mostly when I go into these types of acquisitions I'm looking for something that's like the first year I'm learning. It's not like I can insert myself and change things at day one like say if you got a content site when essentially you're dealing with software. So it's always very different, the base is different, and then the software base is different in terms of developers and things like that. So for me, it's applying the past knowledge of just making a great intuitive software, changing up the interface to what I believe is just a more … a better user experience, and outside of that applying some of those basic marketing things that just need to be done. In this case a lot of that, the basics have been done, but it's that out of the box stuffs that really needed to get taken care of. Joe: I love that first year just learning approach. I see lots of these businesses that are listed and sold. There's a certain amount of year over year growth and the goal is to at least sustain that. And I had a call this week with someone that blew up the SKU count dramatically and it was his kind of biggest failure but at the same time it turned out to be a little bit of a triumph as well because there are some SKUs that are now generating an awful lot of revenue. But there's also a great deal of loss there as well. So I like that learn in the first year process. And what kind of things are you working on now that were never done before in the business? Nathan: Yeah, so there's a couple of things that have also attributed to the growth outside of just again being a SaaS business with not a terrible churn. And the churn for WordPress businesses I think is probably a little bit above average of what other people see in WordPress. Again you buy one so you can potentially keep it. So outside of that, it's been growing. Our affiliate revenue, that's been increasing pretty tremendously. But we had a lot of articles that had been written that were getting pretty decent on the traffic, didn't have any ads on there, didn't have really any affiliate links things like that. So that's one of the things putting in those affiliate links, building more articles around those really high performing traffic. I think at the time this wasn't taken to do that and sort of nurturing that so that's … I've seen— Joe: Are these affiliate links for other plugins or SaaS products or physical products or a combination of all three? Nathan: So the shoe in for us really became the funnel editing tools. We did a lot of … there's been a lot of [inaudible 00:22:24.1] done, tools such as Photoshop and things like that. And so lot of traffic to that kind of stuff. And it just made sense to start saying hey if you don't have Photoshop and you want to do this stuff that you see in this tutorial here's where you can go. And that's pretty much it. And then building off of that and saying what are those Photoshop competitors are out there well there's Skylum Luminar, there is Capture One, there's all these different types of photo editing tools that are kind of riding on the coattails and maybe on the heels of Photoshop. So writing tutorials for those and the same type of strategy that was used and say hey if you don't have it you can go get it over here. Joe: That seems like such a logical thing to do, slow down and read the article, what are people looking for, what can we … Do you know what you're doing? You're helping the audience. They're reading an article about editing and you're then offering them the best photo editing tools right there within the article and you happen to be making money off of it as well. Nathan: Absolutely. And it wasn't the intention of just skyrocket the affiliate. It just made sense. I was like a rational person would mainly look at that and be like you know what this is already an article at Photoshop so you probably already have it. That's not true. There's a lot of people that wouldn't make something black and white and something color in the black and white picture but they didn't know they needed specifically Photoshop to do it. So they end up going … picking up the Creative Cloud plans 9.99 or 19.99 or whatever a month not three or $400 as it used to be. So it's just a lot more easier and accessible. Joe: How did you find the affiliate platform to use, those affiliate themselves? Nathan: Yeah. So share sell has already been in use in the previous ownerships so that's just one of those things. But in this case, it wasn't really even bad. It's just getting … just registering for the program and dropping them the wings and saying hey I should always focus on this some more too because it looks like to be growing. Joe: Pretty easy stuff then. Nathan: Yeah. Joe: Now you mentioned an e-mail list as well; you've historically had lots of free users, a huge e-mail list. Have you ever done anything with that and if not are you planning to do anything? Nathan: Yeah. So the free versions, there was really no list before because there's no way to collect emails from before. So we've started an opt-in for that which again I think is only … it's been a few couple of short weeks but already we're seeing the results come through. The only … the list that we do have is just essentially people that have paid the pro. But the great thing is we're able to cross sell with Soliloquy because generally if you need something like Envira Gallery you probably need something like Soliloquy. Joe: Yeah. Nathan: So that's continuing churn along as well. Joe: That's fantastic. Nathan you look so happy and relaxed and just chill, are you always this way or is it you're just in a good position in right now that you're running this business and see the trends and whatnot? I mean what's the deal? Let's get simple. Nathan: It's a little bit of both so I would be in positions where things were going absolutely terrible and so the short answer is I meditate every day so that I just accept things as they are so that makes life a lot easier for anyone listening. The second part is I think it is that I paid a higher multiple but I've got the security of if all else fails and I can't figure out what to do it will still follow some level of revenue that was expected. So outside of that, I was just building upon that success that's already sort of continuing as well. Joe: Excellent. What's in the works of … goal eyes what are you looking at in the next 12 to 24 months? Anything that if we come back for the second update in another 12 to 24 months what are you hoping to achieve? Nathan: At a minimum, I'd like to achieve that same double digit year over year growth. But I think again entrepreneurs try to go all triple digit all these different revenue channels. Again I opened up the affiliate revenue more and that's beginning to be more of a significant one. But a couple more like that I think would be interesting and just continued growth man. I mean the main thing is … this is one of the things we discussed earlier. It's just that focus on the customer; making sure they're happy, making sure that we're hitting all those needs and then the business kind of just takes off by itself if you're hitting all those things. Joe: That's it. A clear and simple plan; not too complicated. Focus on the customer makes a lot of sense. Any words of advice from one entrepreneur to others in the audience; people that maybe they're working in the corporate world and want to be the next Nathan Singh. Any advice that you can give in terms of running your own business and overcoming challenges and things of that nature? Nathan: Yeah, I would put it safely into patience, persistence, and presence; those three things. Joe: Alright. Patience I get that. Persistence I get it. Presence … meaning? Nathan: Meaning I think as entrepreneurs what we get into is too much looking around to see what someone else is doing or where they wanted to be in a couple of years and getting super stressed if they don't hit those goals. Remember that is just your perception of where you wanted to be, reality happens different things. And I think that if you're approaching everything in a present moment, I'm not trying to sound like a spiritual guru here. Joe: It's just natural though. I like it. Keep going. Nathan: If you're approaching everything in a present manner you're likely to focus on what you're doing at this point and not be so stressed about all those other stuff. Because essentially that's going to be what's going to mess you up; it is worrying about the future, worrying about how things are not going, things like that. Focus on what the problems are at the current moment and do those things at that minute, at that second and just kind of block everything out. I just feel like everybody is uniquely designed to run their own race. So don't look left and right just do your own thing and you'll get to where you're trying to get to. Joe: I like it. I like it very much. Nathan Singh thank you very much for coming back on and giving us the first ever Quiet Light update. I look forward to doing this again. I wish you the best of success. Nathan: Absolutely. Good talking to you Joe. Joe: You too. Links and Resources: Envira Gallery Solliloquy

Download this Episode This week we discuss how to keep a real estate transaction moving forward. Listen in to hear ways to keep a real estate transaction on track to closing. Rethink Real Estate Podcast Transcription Audio length 30:43 RTRE 57 –  Keeping the Real Estate Transaction Under Control [music] [Chris] Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech.  [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Hey everybody and welcome back to re:Think Real Estate. We're so happy to have you here this week. We've got Nate back. He is not selling homes right now. We've got Christian here and as always here to talk real estate and all thing real estate related. So just before getting started we were talking about how agents can control the transaction better and make deals go smoothly for our clients. Nate you are always taking listings. What are some things that you are doing to make sure that you are on top of the transaction? [Nathan]: Well again I was start thinking about this a little bit more before we got to recording here but I…again I think you as an individual…we all have different types of personalities but it also setting an expectation to our client. Right. Whether you are the list side or the buy side but you have to set that tone up front.  I am a little bit of a controller. Actually a lot but I like to control the situation. You have to have confidence and knowledge in what you're doing to do all that but that is the way I operate. Most of my clients appreciate that. And the reason I brought this us is because I have got a buddy I met the other day. He is a lender and another lender he knew was taking a beating because unfortunately buyers are liars and this buyers agent is calling and is literally in Ethany [phonetics] and all over the phone. And you know at a certain point you gotta tell a client you know whether you're the agent or you are the agent or the client and your client is the buyer or lister, you gotta have control over the certain things you can't do.  For that lender the agent was his client, I would have fired him. I wouldn't have taken that you know, it is just the way it goes. Same thing, I don't tolerate certain things from my clients. I mean we call it respect. You know a lot of people like to whine in our business but it is OK to lose a client. It is OK not to get every client. And I think we often forget that. It is kind of one of that win at all cost mentality maybe. I don't like that. [Chris]: And I think if you are winning at all cost you are not factoring in what makes this industry fun, it is being able to enjoy it. [Nathan]: Yeah. [Chris]: So obviously yeah I mean I feel like you are at the point in your career where yeah you can choose and have the option to fire your clients. But why was it…why do you think it got to that point in the transaction where the agent was calling and cursing at the lender? [Nathan]: Again, you know, I have said this before in our podcast. We want to be emotional. And I have always…I think the best thing I was ever taught when I got in this industry is to take my emotion out of it. [Chris]: Amen to that. [Nathan]: We realtors…You know I am gonna beat us up but as I have said the large majority we just love to feel so important, right? We love to know that “Hey look at me, hey look at me. I am an awesome, awesome relator. I am an awesome realtor”. Like… [Chris]: “Let me tell you about me. Let me tell you about me. It is all about me. Really what do you think about me”.  [Nathan]: Yeah. And so take the emotion out of it. You know, I don't know. [Christian]: Why do you…why do you suppose…I mean I have my thoughts on this. Why do you suppose he thought it was acceptable and call the lender and cuss him out and get all emotional about it? [Nathan]: Well the guy is an [censored] [laughter]. If he were listening, that is what I would tell him. Right.  [Christian]: OK.  [Nathan]: Bottom line is whether we are in realty or not you don't treat other people that way. Like you know… [Christian]: Why… [Nathan]: Yeah why did he treat somebody that way? Probably because he had really bad parents I don't know. [laughter]. [Christian]: Yeah I mean… [Chris]: A lot of people don't think about other people as actual beings. Human. I think that si the problem. [Christian]: I mean and I am on that. Obviously treat people as humans. Treat them with respect. But you know when it comes to like being professional in this industry I mean there is a lot of things that I like to push back on in industry like you know our job is to be the rock when our clients are emotional and deals you know on the brink of falling apart. I mean if we get emotional I mean I don't know any of you…I mean I know you guys have kids. I know that when I am near my kid's emotions and he is getting all ramped up and I am ramped up, that doesn't help. [Chris]: That makes it worse. [Christian]: Worse. But I mean if I can be a consistent calm and I am able to bring it back down to like “OK let's look at the reality of things if you know…” But I think a lot of agents kind of lose their cool because they think “I am advocating for my client. I am passionate when I am doing my job”. No no you are just being a [censored] and you are [censored] things up for your client.  [Nathan]: Yeah well said. [Chris]: So that gets to a great point on helping to control the conversation to control the transaction. Is controlling emotion. [Christian]: Definitely. [Chris]: Because if we can control our emotion and understand that when we are interacting with a client it is a very…they are in a heightened state of emotion. Right. Buying a…Buying a real estate parcel, right a house or a commercial or whatever it is, is extremely stressful for people because they have a lot invested in it. It is a lot of money. It is a big transaction.  So if something bad happens they are gonna think it is the worst thing in the world even if it is just you know a small hiccup. If something miniscule like good happens they are gonna think it is the best thing in the world. So if we can just kind of maintain a level of neither good nor bad on the emotional scale than holy hell like that really can do exactly what it does for your kid Christian. It is just like calm. When something bad goes on don't worry. Got it under control.  [Nathan]: I…you know I wasn't here the last episode we recorded because I had a deal going sideways. Even my client's father flew in from Boston. He was… [Chris]: To help the deal or to ruin the deal.  [Nathan]: Well at first I thought was honestly he was gonna ruin it. He was very emotional. It was his son's house. It is you know a lot of things going sideways on this.  [Chris]: Yeah. [Nathan]: And you know he called me “What are we gonna do?”. And now we're just [inaudible] we're great. We're good buddies now. But I said “We're gonna work the problem.” “What do you mean?” I said “We're gonna work the problem. Work the problem”. I mean we get…this is 3 days of craziness in my life here recently. And he called me and said “Man I gotta tell you kept your cool.” Yeah I did because me getting upset is exactly what Christian said. It is just gonna make everybody else upset.  .So I am..I am like the captain of the ship right. If I am freaking out everybody else is freaking out. I am you know…It was not fun. But we got through it. And now here is a gentleman that like he is my biggest advocate that I could possibly have now. But I think if I would have reacted the way he was initially reacting it was gonna be really, really bad 3 days for me. And it turned out an Ok 3 days, you know what I mean. [Chris]: Yeah you gotta control that. [Nathan]: Yeah. [Chris]: That is definitely one thing that agents can do in a transaction to kind of control the tone, control the pace. It is just control our own emotions because whether you want to believe it or not people are gonna mimic you. That is just how it happens. So obviously in the deal that you mentioned Nate the agent got upset with the lender. Obviously something at some point was not communicated clearly. Because if the lender had all the information and the agent had all the information and the buyer was given all the information than usually…I don't see a circumstance where somebody is gonna yell at somebody. Christian… [Christian]: It sounds like there is an unmet expectation there. I don't know. [Chris]: Yeah it sounds like it. So Christian when you are working with a buyer and you've got all these different wheels that are moving more so than with the seller, what are some things that you are doing to set expectation with people? [Christian]: Yeah I mean I say setting expectations specifically but communication in general that is probably the most important thing you can do as a real estate agent. [Chris]: I agree. [Nathan]: Yeah. [Christian]: Because you can be a terrible agent and totally incompetent but if you can communicate well you look like you're doing your job. You know now whether or not you do the back end and actually have knowledge and stuff that is all a different thing but you can be a rock star agent and know exactly what you're going but if your communication sucks your agent is gonna think you suck. [Chris]: It is like you're up on a show. You've got the curtain right and the clients are seeing what is in front not what is behind. [Christian]: right. And so that is a long answer to basically say I am mister kind of control freak I have got processes for everything. And part of the process is this template email as part of my CRM and first thing we do “Hey we are under contract. OK here is the 5 things you are gonna expect, here is what comes next, here is what we're gonna be doing for you in the next 3 days. Here is what you are gonna be doing”. You know. And after we get past our expectance commencing here is what it is gonna look like.  You know now that is not the only communication but that is like it sets the expectations up front you know because you get a contract and now there is a whole bunch of stuff going on and now they're stressing out. You know I can't be on the phone with them every 10 minutes you know and call them off the ledge. But if you set these expectations and say “This is what happens and this is what we're doing.” And you know checking in with them whenever there is a new bench mark. That has a calming effect you know on them as opposed to they don't hear anything. [Nathan]: Oh yeah you don't have to do a lot. I mean I send out Friday updates. That is what I call it. Friday updates. Every Friday I touch my clients no matter where we are. Just to give them something right. But I mean Christian you hit…all your points were spot on. Maybe you should just have the Christian Harris school of mentoring real estate agents [laughter]. All people can learn from that. [Chris]: Definitely. [Nathan]: You know communication is key. So…I am with you on that one. I am seeing great agents who know everything very well but they are horrible communicators. [Christian]: And to your point Nathan I mean, part of that communication is even if nothing is going on once a week touching in. I do my touching on Monday because typically like if you are working on a listing that is when it is going to be the most information that we can pass. So I do my updates on Mondays. The point is going on “Hey there is nothing going on and I just want you to know so that you are not wondering what is going on”.   [Chris]: Yeah for both of you to reach out and tell somebody nothing has changed, is one of the key differentiators that I have seen for people who are successful  and who are not. Because if you are having that communication level when nothing is happening they know “Oh OK nothing is happening but I am not hearing silence”. Because it is when the seller or the buyer, they hear silence that is when they get in their own head. And they start thinking “Well is this agent really doing things in my best interest. Are they really working on my behalf”. [Christian]: You have to interfere with the doubt and the emotions kind of you know. [Chris]: It comes in the silence. Exactly. Awesome so we're getting about halfway through the episode right now. I want to…we are trying out a new segment called re:Think Realty bonus thoughts where we have a topic to discuss that none of us have seen before. We're just pulling it out of an envelope. So this one is “Things seen in houses.” I am really not sure. I guess we're just supposed to talk about things that we have seen in houses. Things like “Where is Waldo”. Print frames. Eye level in the bathroom. Things like that. Blurred out dog face on a listing photo. [Christian]: So like funny or unique things that we have seen? Is that like… [Chris]: Yeah what are some unique things that you have seen in homes that you have listed? [Christian]: I have seen atrocious staging and unfortunately it was one of my first listings when I was trying out a stager so… [Chris]: Was it really? [Christian]: I had to fire that stager and the stager I use now was the person that came in like 2 days noticed and saved the day. But yeah I have seen that. I have noticed that you want to make sure you have a local stager. Here in Seattle we've got a couple of…Well we've got a lot of island like 107 islands. And one of the…I had a friend who had a mom who does staging so I gave her a hot but she was from one of the islands and she came over and did it and her idea of staging was weaker in floral prints. And it made it look like a grandma's house and it was not gonna fly in Seattle. [Chris]: Wow. [Christian]: That is unfortunately that was kind of my fault but that was something I have seen that was atrocious and made sure it didn't get to the listing photos and that was a learning experience. [crosstalk]. I am sorry? [Chris]: What do you got Nate? What is something you have seen in a house? [Nathan]: Guns. [laughter] [Christian]: Alright. [Nathan]: No, yeah I mean like literally guns just laying out around the house. [Chris]: Oh yeah I have seen that. [Nathan]: Like hand guns and rifles. And magazines in the club. I love guns don't get me wrong but I have got clients who have a kid with me and I am like “Holy snap” like you know what's going on. Like… [Christian]: That is a different world in Ohio I guess. [Chris]: It is not just Ohio we've got that in Georgia too. I have walked through homes and opened up a closet and boom there is a shotgun just sitting right there.  [Nathan]: That is…the oddest…[crosstalk] [Chris]: Yeah so one of the oddest things that I have ever seen in a home is in a basement they…put in multiple urinals in a restroom.  [Christian]: Like a restroom? [Chris]: Like a bathroom but then they…When they finished the basement they made it like a big bathroom with like 3 urinals but no divider. Really, really weird I have no idea why. [Christian]: Were they having like a fight club in the basement?  [Chris]: Yeah yeah it was really weird. I ended up not getting that listing. Because I don't think he liked what I said about marketing that. [Nathan]: Have you guys ever been in a home where they have pad locks on all the doors on the exterior like on a bedroom? [Chris]: I have seen that one. [Christian]: That is creepy as hell.  [Nathan]: I saw that a few weeks ago and I was like “That is really weird”.  [Chris]: Yeah.  [Christian]: I wouldn't want to know what they do. [Chris]: You are either doing some child abuse there or you just got a lot of guns in that room. [Christian]: It's sketchy. [Chris]: Whatever it is. Yeah it is in the living room [laughter]. “You are not getting into my living room. This is mine”. It could be like one of those…Did you all see the listing that it was making the rounds on a few weeks ago, the sex dungeon in the basement? [Nathan]: Awesome. [Chris]: Yeah I mean just things like that.  [Christian]: Yeah like the brokerage had some pretty fun stuff, the lighter side of real estate had some pretty funny things like that.  [Chris]: Yeah definitely the things that they come up with that is absolute hilarity. I can't believe that you know when Kellen [phonetics] when he did his deal to our show got picked up by lighter Real Estate. It was… [Christian]: That was awesome. [Chris]: It was in one of the shows. OK so yeah re:Think Real Estate bonus thoughts. Giving it a shot. Tell us what you think. Make sure you leave us a review on iTunes for anybody listening. I…shoot us a comment either on our Facebook page or on the website on rtrepodcast.com.  So back to today's topic which was the agent's control of the transaction. Where they can make a big impact. Nate what is one of the most impactful things that you find you are able to do for your clients outside of communication and setting expectations? [Nathan]: I don't know. This…I mean it sounds weird but just being upfront and honest. I feel like…I feel like there are so many agents that just are not forthcoming. Do you know what I mean? [Chris]: Yeah. [Nathan]: Again it is the win at all cost or lie at all cost just to get the listing. I mean I just went on a listing in an apartment a couple of weeks ago and she walked me up in the room and she said “Nate what do you think about this room”. I started to laugh and she said “What is funny?” And I said “This is a [censored] ugly room”.  And that is all [laughter] I said all these things in here and in the bathroom too and she starts laughing and I say “What is so funny Jane?” And she says “I have had 3 other agents in here and none of them have had the balls to tell me what I already knew.” [laughter]. She said “I love that you already told me that it is ugly”. She said “I know it is ugly but everybody else says this is gorgeous, this is lovely, we will do this to make it look like this”. She is like “It is an ugly room. Why won't somebody just tell me the truth?” And I told her the truth and guess who got the listing?  [Chris]: There you go. There you go. [Nathan]: Tell the truth. If they don't like the truth than they will hire somebody else that will tell them whatever lie they want to hear. [Chris]: And if you feel like you're not up to telling somebody “This is a [censored] ugly room”. You don't have to say it like that.  [Christian]: You can be more diplomatic to be honest. [Chris]: Yeah be more diplomatic. [Christian]: That is not Nate's style. [Nathan]: That is not my style lets be honest. [Chris]: Just so that our audience knows. You don't have to do it Nate's way. You can tell somebody “No this room may not be up to the aesthetics as the rest of the house. We probably won't focus our marketing efforts on this room”. [Christian]: Or “You can burn this room down”. Or something like that. [Chris]: Yeah. Or “We could put up some fumigation label outside so nobody comes in”. Whatever it may be, but yeah on that line with honestly I think one thing agents have sometimes gotten self-caught up in is when they find something that they don't know they will try and [censored] their way out of it. Instead of saying “I don't know, let me get you the answer. We will make sure that we do this the right way”.  And people feel like you know winning at all cost they want to feel like the expert they always want to be in the expert shoes, they don't want to step back and admit you know, “There might be something I don't know here”. You know that is kind of one thing that I think goes a long way in controlling the transaction is don't be afraid to admit where there is something that you haven't dealt with. That is why it is important to have a good team unless you are Nate. In which case you are solo.  But if you've got a good team or resources or you know even friends and people that you respect in the industry and people that you can reach out to as long as they're you know you are following your broker's direction, you are making sure that everything is legal and ethical. I don't think we have to cover that at this stage in the game.  But yeah just making sure that where your shortcoming are you are not [censored] through them. Christian what do you think are some things that you now can help control the situation a little bit more throughout the transaction especially due diligence, getting into financing and getting up to the posing table? [Christian]: Sure so I mean there is obviously like a minimum standard of what an agent has to do. I am more like how much can I do to help an agent. You know. So for us you know I mean like we all know that is…you know good buyers. You know it is the buyers responsibility as part of their…you know once they get a contract and they're talking to a lender and get all the documents they need and stuff. They need to reach to interns company and get a policy in place and that kind of stuff.  But like that is not really on our shoulders but I still make it a point to you know a day or 2 after to send out an email and say “Hey this is a reminder, these is the things that you need to do. Make sure you get your lenders documents at town manor, make sure you get a quote on home insurance because they can't hold an appraisal before you do”. You know just stuff that is not necessarily in my ball part but it helps them know that, like “These are things that you need to do as part of the process”.  [Chris]: Yeah and going an extra mile is huge. We've got a lot of good feedback ever since we started implementing move easy, which ties into our transaction management system. So move easy when our agents mark that their client is under contract they get this digital check list and resource bank that tells them everything that they need to do during the move from “Don't forget to order your moving supplies, don't forget to line up your child care, you're getting all your pet immunizations” whatever it might be. We put all of it in a checklist and our agents…our clients seem to love it. For those that take advantage of it. [Christian]: And that as I recall it is free for agents right? [Chris]: Well it has to be set up on a brokerage level but yes it is free. [Christian]: So talk to your broker about setting it up for you. Or if you do something like client giant you know per agent they do kind of that concierge. They take care of all your utilities and that is helpful too. [Chris]: That's awesome yeah. And that was Jay O'Brien [phonetics] we had him on last year. Definitely a great episode to go and listen to about providing what was it 7 start service in a 3 start industry? [Christian]: Yes. 5 start service and 3 star…7 start... [Nathan]: 7 star… [Chris]: 7 star in a 3 star. [Christian]: It's a good… [Chris]: Yeah it's a good one. He's a really good person to listen to as well.  [Christian]: Yeah for the service yeah.  [Chris]: Yeah I mean there is so many things that we can do to go above and beyond. You know in Georgia the typical transaction is byer gets contract. Contract gets due diligence. Due diligence gets home inspection. After home inspection there is no other inspection done. They may be right on. I have never seen anybody do a lot of base paint test. They just kind of waive that and you know that is it.  But there is so many other things that we can do. We can advise for air quality testing if there are allergies present which that I have seen happen. Partnering them with an insurance agent to make sure that the home is insurable and check for what the previous claims are. Like getting a clue report pulled. All of these things are huge and can make a big impact in not only your client experience but also controlling the situation, making sure that things are discovered before we get too far. So that at the last minute when we get to the closing table things are reared in their ugly head.  [Christian]: So speaking of kind of above and beyond just us doing our jobs for our clients, I mean what are you guys thoughts about health warranties? Typically I have written those off because they are so limited typically. As far as what they replace in the time frame. But like recently I helped a friend of mine buy a house kind of outside of my normal area a little farther outside in Takoma. And the recommended inspector from some of my you know, agent friends down there, they actually include a very inclusive home warranty that I was very impressed with.  And no extra charge you know like because they already did the inspection on the roof so they guarantee the roof is gonna hold for 5 years and appliances for this long and you know all these extra stuff that seems like a real value add for no additional money either to your pocket or out of their pocket. But what are you guys thoughts on hat? [Nathan]: I mean here in Ohio it is long. A seller typically pays for home warranty. I like them but I like to choose it because there are certain home warranties that have what they are called caps or limitations on what they will cover. And if you know those I don't think that is a good value. The ones that I typically go with on home warranty has no caps. The other side of it form a listing side is they have seller protection from the moment we put that house on the market, the items are covered in warranty. But I think you have to articulate to your client that a home warranty is good for your major stuff. [Chris]: Yeah sure. [Nathan]: Your HVAC furnace. [Chris]: Sometimes. [Nathan]: Yeah well OK again here they're smart like don't go and have a home warranty claim when you had an inspection that said it was bad right. That is not the way to do it so… [Chris]: And on top of that if you have a 25 year old HVAC system it is not gonna pay for a brand new system if it [censored] out. It will have a maximum amount that it will pay towards but on a 25 year old system it is gonna not cover that switch over from you know what was it our 20 to now 4 10A or whatever the new coolant is. So you got explain that to your clients.  Again back to what Nate was saying. Expectation setting. Back to what Christian was saying. Expectation setting. Making sure that everybody understands where the value is when they get it. [Christian]: So what you're saying is that home warranty can be of value just make sure you do your research that is actually a quality home warranty that provides something. [Chris]: Yeah. [Nathan]: 100%. [Chris]: On the first home that my wife and I ever purchased, 3 months in the stove shorted out. It came out 50 dollar call, rewired the entire thing and it worked fine. It is still in that home. But that was a lot less than it would have been you know to have you know a new stove or bring out an electrician so it has its values. [Nathan]: Yeah yeah, I just had to call a client and we were 2 days outside of closing an she was the seller and the hot water tank failed. We had seller protection on it. Guess what 65 dollar call, brand new hot water tank. [Chris]: There you go. [Christian]: Save your 500 dollars. [Nathan]: Saved probably more than that and you know she was already stressed out and called the client. I said “Let's have home warranty take care of that”. Again if you know what you're getting can be a great value. But… [Chris]: Absolutely.  [Nathan]: There are a lot of junk ones. [Chris]: And all of this…yeah all of this goes in line with taking control of the transaction and making sure that we are directing it in a way to get it to the closing table and we are directing it in a way that is in our client's best interest.  [Christian]: Yeah and speaking of staying in control of that transaction one of the things that I see…I moved to a whole other topic on this whole episode, but is that you know what do you do to continue to provide value and stay in front of your clients after closed? Or what the agent is gonna feel at that? [Nathan]: That is a whole episode.  [Chris]: Yeah that is a whole episode. Why don't we get into that next week [laughter]?  [Christian]: OK well I will give a little teaser than. [Chris]: Let's give a teaser and we will get into it next week.  [Christian]: What we started to do is a sort of called home button and that has been great because it is cheap. Right now it is only 25 dollars. You know, to use it and you get it for 500 clients. But basically it provides every month to your home buyer, it provides them with an automated like “Here is what your home is worth and if you refine,  this is what it would look like, if you are AIRBNBed one of your rooms this is the value if you added 300 dollars a month extra payment you know you would pay this much less over the course of yadayada”. So basically provides all these really easy to understand analytics for a client's house that is branded to you.  [Chris]: Awesome.  [Christian]: And instead of you know you sending out some junk email drip thing every month where they probably don't even look at, here is something that directly relates to their house that they're probably gonna look at it. And you can see all the analytics and back end when they're click on it. [Chris]: Thanks for tuning into re:Think Real Estate. Make sure you join us next week as we talk about how to provide value post-closing and control that relationship into the future. Christian you gave a great teaser on that. For anybody who hasn't please go to rtrepodcast.com. Sign up for the newsletter so you never miss when we drop an episode and leave us a 5-star review on iTunes. Have a great day everyone.  [music]  [Chris]: Thanks for tuning in this week's episode of the re:Think Real Estate Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licensed for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

Download this Episode There are so many different needs that individual real estate agents have for their business. Many agents need detailed support and guidance in building and operating their business. Others need a framework that they can operate their business within that will lead to greater predictability in their income. Each agent is different within the real estate space and Brokers should understand how they can tailor their model to match different needs of agents. What do agents want from their broker? The re:Think Real Estate Podcast focuses on different aspects of the real estate industry. We share stories of amazing agents that defied the odds to create a name for themselves in the industry. We also share best practices for what works for us in our daily lives. Tune in every week to hear a new episode. Oh, and while you're at it please leave us 5 STAR review on iTunes! Real Estate Podcast Transcription Audio length 29:39 RTRE 51 – What Do Real Estate Agents Want? [music] [Chris] Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech.  [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Everybody and welcome back to re:Think Real Estate. I am Chris Lazarus here with Christian Harris and Nathan White and we're so glad to have you along for the next 30 minutes. Guys what is going on? [Christian]: Just trying to stay warm. It's snowing again in 2019 in Seattle. It's actually pretty bad so it's like adages of snow and lots of hill lots of nice… [Nathan]: Yeah I guess…It's tougher for you guys in Seattle with your skinny jeans that come up past your ankles and getting wet and you not knowing what to do. [Chris]: It was hard tracking to the local coffee shop this morning right? [Christian]: Yeah. I am a steady guy in the eye. [laughter]. [Nathan]: My Fedora blue is off in the heavy snow and I didn't know what to do. [Christian]: I got my flannel and my…down. [Chris]: I don't know if I can make it to the grocery store for more almond milk.  [Christian]: You can come here and try to drive down in the 18% grade in the ice and see how you do. [Nathan]: When I went to pick a granola for the day care it was really challenging. [crossover talking] [Christian]: It must have been really nice living in the woods and having… [Nathan]: It was a great episode. Guys I gotta go [laughter].  [Christian]: That's a little [inaudible] I get it. [Chris]: Thanks for tuning in to re:Think Real Estate. We'll catch you…No I am just kidding. So no what are we talking about this week Christian? [Christian]: Let's talk about what agents want or what we think agents want. Or what agents think they want but then they find out they don't really want that. [Nathan]: This is great since I am an agent and I can't wait to think what 2 brokers think we want or at leats…[laughter]. [Christian]: Well we're also agents. I mean technically we're brokers in Washington but…you know I know there's things that I want which is why I set up my brokerage the way I did. But then you also have the… In my experience you kind of have like what agents say they want, what they think they want and then you actually find out what they want. Because you provide them all the things they say they want and they don't use them. Or they still go somewhere else because they're lured by something else sexy and shiny. And then realize the grass isn't actually greener. So I think it's actually interesting conversation to have. What do you guys think? [Chris]: Well I think that you know…for that is gonna depend on where the agent is in their career.  [Christian]: Correct and what they want. [Chris]: You're got all new agents. You've got all different types of brokerages. You know your new agent is gonna need a lot more than your experienced agent so where do you want to start first? [Christian]: Yeah I mean yeah I would say there is probably you know on the spectrum 3 major groups of agents I would say. There's the agent who doesn't need the help, doesn't want the help, just wants a low fee, low cost structure to do their own thing.  [Chris]: OK. [Christian]: That's fine that's gonna be like Nathan, you know, what you're doing. You know you started at KW you got your feet under you and kind of went out to do your own thing. You know, after you figured it out.  And I think there is the bulk of agents which is kind of in the middle of. They want some support of some sort whether that's access to the broker for questions or marketing or CRM or systems or something. They're gonna want some sort of support and they're willing to pay up a higher split for that.  And I guess you could say maybe like Redfin or something is kind of the other, I don't know if I would say other end of the extreme, where it's employee based. It's not independent contractor based you know. So you're got no anonymity because you're not an independent contractor. You're playing your part in the cog as a cog and a corporation. [Chris]: I think…I think those are on the grand scheme of things. Because most offices don't operate on employee bases. I think we can probably categories those like team members. Those that don't want to build their own business, just want leads provided to them, go out close to sale, be a sales agent.  [Christian]: there you go so their value that they're looking for is being part of a team.  [Chris]: OK. [Christian]: Yep. [Chris]: Well let's start with the…with the bulk of the agent. What do you think most agents want in a brokerage Christian? I am putting you in the hot seat first. [Christian]: Yeah that…It's…As I figured out or trying to figure out this independent brokerage thing you know and discovered things as you know agents have come and gone…I think what they want or what they realize that they want or need…I don't know. You cut that out [laughter].  I think what agents come to value is some sort of system in the organization because they realize very quickly that most of them are not organized. And so they're gonna have that provided to them without them having to figure out technology and CRM and that kind of stuff. But I think it's something that a lot of agents have to discover. It's probably not something that they value up front.  You know they have to discover “OK I am getting business and I am bringing it with my head cut off you know and I cannot really handle so much because I am scattered, you know.” I mean that's…That was kind of my idea. I mean that's what I saw was agents want to be in front of people. There's not necessarily systems, processes organized. You know, that kind of stuff. So the whole idea is you come here, we provide that so you can go out and be in front of people and not have to worry about thinking you know the back end stuff. [Chris]: So basically all the behind the scenes taken care of so they can focus on selling. [Christian]: Yes and no. Actually I think it's not initially valued until they realize that they're not good at it. And they need it. So…It's not sexy so…but I think some things are sexy, they're a little more obvious. Would be like marketing. Like you know are there options for me to have a listing that I don't have to create from scratch. You know.  Whether that's internal marketing team or some sort of template platform. You know that they provide it for you. Or social media post of something. Something that makes it easy to get in front of potential clients or you know marketing stuff for your…for your buyers, for your sellers. That sort of thing.  I think a big one which is…seems pretty universal is access to the broker when they have questions. You know so…because I have had people come here say “I can't…it takes 3 days for my broker to get back to me”. You know and I am like “That's kind of ridiculous you know, you have one job as a broker. You know”. Technically I mean that's kind of the big thing it's like supporting the agents when they have legal questions. Contract questions [laughter]. You know if you're not doing that what the hell are you doing? You know.  [Chris]: Nate what do you think? [Nathan]: There's is many things here. Like you know me. I am the bear bonds. I don't moat, I don't need all the fluff. You know… [Christian]: Oh fluff huh? [Nathan]: You know what I mean with it [laughter]. [Christian]: I know what you're saying. [Nathan]: But you talk about like we go back to this you know agents being so busy, right. So you know an agent says “Well I need all this, right…Or…”. But than they don't actually use it. And so I…I…like I was in that box. Like I had all the stuff but I didn't use it. So why am I paying for it. So… [Christian]: Sure. [Nathan]: There are so many different directions you can go. You're right on the types of people I think that the sharks like myself that you know or hunter killers, whatever you wanna call us that you know we're happy going out and hunting and eating what we kill and that's…We really enjoy that.  And then there's that middle of the pack you know I call it your dad bought group, right. You know they're just happy standing in lane [laughter] and not doing anything. And that belly is gonna appear and they're not gonna be much about it. They're comfortable. That's what we are as a society. Were a [censored] comfortable. So they're not gonna challenge anything at all right. They're just gonna say “Yeah I don't mind giving out 60-40 split. I am good I am getting my CRM that I am not using.” All this [censored] that they're not really using but they're telling themselves they're happy. What they are they're just comfortable and they're not truly uncomfortable and I think to be a hunter killer or shark you've gotta be comfortable being uncomfortable.  And then you've got that far end of the spectrum of that person who's got really no ambition to me or they just…they don't know what the [censored] they're doing and they're on that employee you know plan. So go for it. You know that's happy. And that's fine. I…I love the middle of the road pack. There's you know they're great and they do a great job and people have different circumstances right. And I don't want to feel like I am bashing that middle of the road pack. Why? If you're a mum or a father, a single parent whatever it may be, you may need all those things to support you. Maybe you can't get out and you know be the hunter killer that you really want to be. Which I would challenge and say you could. But maybe that is just what works for you at this given time.  So you know I could…Again I could talk about a lot of different things. When I started I wanted leads. I wanted leads and I wanted to know how to talk to them. Converse to them. And become more educated and knowledgeable. That's what I wanted. So than once you get past that phase I think than there's the evolution. You kind of have that fork on the road to go down this path and you stay there.  And then you're just happy in your zone and you go “Well I wanna go this way”. And you go the opposite direction. So I think it depends on the type of individual or personality you are and I think it depends on where you are in your career. I mean hack, I might get to the later stages of this and go “Man I am good you know what”. And join a team and get comfortable and take a 60-40 split and be happy, right. I don't know.  [Christian]: Yeah I mean I'll push back a little bit on the characterization of the middle. Because to me it's such a broad…I think most agents would wall into that as far as agents are gonna line in franchise or whatever.  There is a good size group of them that are comfortable that aren't doing anything, that don't have a sense of urgency. You know I would say that's probably the same group that you know brings industry down as far as you know ill trained, ill experienced. Those are always gonna be there you know until we radically change, you know, where the bar is in the industry. Training or something. You know.  But I would say that I think there is a mischaracterization just because you're kind of in that middle, that you're not hungry. It doesn't mean it. Yeah I know plenty of agents who are killing it because they're hungry and because they're using…Because they're organized or you know have a team or whatever you know. I think you can be successful kind of doing that alone like you know not having a CRM or being an organized or refusing… [Nathan]: I am organized. [laughter] [Christian]: Not having a CRM and that sort of thing. But…Because I think if you're driven you're gonna be successful. Just a matter of you know kind of that quality of life or that you know…running with your head cut off. How much business can you handle. How much do you want to handle versus kind of having it…it systematized whatever so.  I think you can do it like you're doing it or be in the middle so to speak. And have that stuff provided to you. But I think you also hit an interesting point about leads. You know a lot of agents are willing to give up you know, splits because they want leads handed to them. And I am kind of divided on that because I mean in general my thinking is “Well if you as an agent can't figure out how to get your own business, what good are you? Like that's your job, is to figure out the business. What the broker is handing to you, the leads, the business, what do you need agents for? Like they did the hard work for you, you know.” The contract once you've been through the process is easy.  So I mean that's just kind of me. So that's not something we do and theoretically it's something that maybe we'll try to figure out or whatever but it's kind of ideologically speaking you know I don't want lazy agents that just want the business handed to them. You know I want sharks like yourself [laughter]. I want people that are motivated that are gonna go figure it out you know. [Nathan]: So than what would you provide to me as a shark? Like you know I do good business. So you're here in the Ohio market. You want me. You're like “Man I need Nathan on my team”. Or “How do I make this happen?” What are you gonna give me or what are you gonna provide me that's gonna change… [Christian]: I don't think that you would find value in the things that we provide so I don't know if that would be a good fit. Because for us is you know you come here, we give you your email, your CRM training. Back office stuff. If you're like “I don't need that I have my own thing.” well you're probably not gonna see the value in this let's give the culture we provide. You just want to go your own thing.  And I have had agents that said “Hey I don't think you're a good fit because all you want to do is do your own thing and you don't want any part in like the Sea-Town culture or what we give you. You don't find value in that so you want to negotiate a different split. Like it's not how we do it. You know it's not what we're looking for”. So it comes down to you know, what the agent values and what the brokerage's strength is.  [Nathan]: But you didn't pitch. You didn't pitch me. You didn't say… [Christian]: No I am not pitching you. I want agents that see the value that we bring. I am not gonna settle to an agent. I don't. I don't…I don't settle. I don't do pitches. I mean like this is what we do. This is what we're about. If you want to be part of it great. If you don't you know there's just no brokerage down there that won't give you anything. Wont charge anything either. [Chris]: So I think you both hit on some good points. But what are the key things that for…I think you both missed is humans are…We have a pack mentality. We want to belong to something that is bigger than ourselves. It helps with motivation. It gives us a sense of purpose in our lives. And I think the majority of agents choose their brokerage based off of how they…how it aligns with who they are personally. Yeah you have people that go out and do their own thing. But even the people that are…are attending you know their meetings in a video game are still a part of something that they feel aligns with their core values.  Another thing that I think is extremely valuable in the brokerage stand point is that a lot of agents don't know what they don't know. Their…their job is to make a living. Their job is to serve their clients and to go out and to make sure that the client is getting the best experience, that they are generating a referral and repeat business, that they're able to be the shark and to go out and get new business. Their job is not to follow industry trends. It's hard to do that stuff when you're doing a full time sales job. To be able to see what's on the horizon and look at the industry from you know, 30 thousand feet or 100 thousand feet versus being on the ground in the business are 2 completely different skill sets. And you know there are agents that don't see value in that. There are a lot of agents that they don't care one way or another because they just want some leads and they want to go out and sell. But then I think a vast majority of the agents really want to know what's going on and to have all the data that is collected really put into a form that is presentable and easily understood so that they can relate that to their clients and reinforce that they are a true expert.  I think that there is a lot of value that can be brought by the brokerage on this level and I think that a lot of agents when they realize that that is one of the core focuses of an office can really determine whether or not that is something that fits in line with what they want.  Now you guys both talked on leads and leads are a funny thing because leads can make a good agent great. Leads can help a new agent increase the size of a database very quickly. And if when they're done right form a brokerage stand point leads are not about giving handouts because for example our lead team has extremely strict requirements on their metrics and if their metrics aren't met their leads will be paused until they're able to complete the metrics that are required. At that time they will be reinstituted. And if they continue not living up to that message I've got a waiting list of people that want to be on that team.  And it's not to say that everything is done at a higher split. The leads are because we have a cost associated with that. But mostly the agents that are doing the leads they're only paying a higher split on the leads that we generate. Everything else is on their normal split for performance. So it just gives them an incentive to…if as a broker I can give some of my agents an extra 10 or 15 thousand dollars a year in their pocket that's business that they otherwise would not have had, and increase their database for future business down the road than I am doing my job well.  And if I can do that without you know hindering their ability to grow their business and be successful I am doing my job well. And when we're doing that along with building a culture and giving people that cause that they can believe in and that mentality of belonging than I am doing my job well. Now those are the things that I think a broker needs to do.  [Christian]: Yeah. I think you're exactly right. That kind of that culture I mean what we usually lead with as a brokerage is the culture and the experience. You know. And the experience is through technology blah blah blah, and things that we provide but the culture you know is not something that is replicatable.  [Chris]: No, culture takes years to develop. [Christian]: Yeah it's good. [Chris]: And it can be killed with one bad action. [Christian]: Right. And it's something that you know I see you know anecdotally I have seen here as far as…you know I can't speak about culture per se but definitely that hurt mentality you know I have seen you know form a distance like the brokerage I started off with like it started off…Because they're some big franchises you know within 2 miles of my office here. And you know I have seen you know the manager team left you know that brokerage, that franchise and went to another franchise and than you started seeing just and exodus of agents from that brokerage to the other brokerage just I mean just huge turn over in agents that had been with this brokerage for you know 10 years, 15 years.  And it wasn't because this other brokerage provides something better. It was because they like the people. Everyone is going there. That's the place to be. You know like it wasn't a tangible thing it was a more local grasp grip culture and the people you know. And you know and somebody I am trying to hack this. I am like how you know the people we're been bringing on they come to me already sold. They're like “We love what you're doing, the philanthropy, the culture. Innovation. We wouldn't be part of this.” But they're new agents and I am fond of that but that takes a lot of work up front to train and mentor and stuff.  What I am trying to hack you know is like how do I increase my ratio of experienced agents to brand new green agents? If you figure it out let me know [laughter]. Because it comes down to what the Sea-Town have that X, Y franchise doesn't have or can't provide. You know why would they leave some place they're comfortable and then no people as established brand or name whatever to this unknown scrappy indie brokerage?  [Chris]: Yeah so our focus is primarily on new agents. We...We put a ton of effort and time into training. So we have a lot of experienced agents that came to us back in the day when we were…just starting out. And our costs were so low that people came over. You know I bet back in the day Nate you would have been paying less with us at Sellect than whatever you're paying now. And we had to go away from that.  But interestingly as we got away from that we moved towards splits that were more in line with the services that were offering performance increased. Agents were making more now paying us a little bit more than the ever did. When they were paying us hardly little…hardly anything. And you know 100% of nothing is still nothing. And when we focused on production and training and we increased the splits people see a lot more value in what we do and our per person productivity has gone up since 2015. It was around 300.000 per person. Now it's a little over…Just under 1.1 million per person. So performance is tied to it. Yeah. [Christian]: Yeah I mean that's an interesting point because that is something that we're starting to try to do. Because before it was just kind of me doing 1 on 1. And I am a big believer in training support you know because my experience was you go to a brokerage, the brokerage is like “Welcome aboard. You know you have a heartbeat, good luck. Let us know if you need anything”.  And maybe would provide some training here and there but nothing systematized. Nothing is priorities. You know there's no organization to any of it. And as a new agent you don't know what you're supposed to ask. I mean like “OK I have a contract question.” “Do you have a specific question to ask me?”. You know that's not…”Teach me how to…how to business plan and how am I gonna generate you know, build my business”.  So we're starting to do more on that. I am very involved in that and since we're coming again to your point Nathan like agents you know, may say they want one thing but than their action maybe betray that they don't really value that. So we've had you know some agents sign up for you know our new training and stuff but you know there has been push back of “Oh it costs money?” And “Oh I don't have the time”.  And I am like “Hey listen like you put…you get out of it what you put into it and if you don't want to put money into it, you don't want to put time into it you're obviously not serious you know.” I am willing to work around scheduling stuff but I am not gonna pay for you. Like you know. So that kind of stuff can be difficult. Kind of trying to figure out who is a good fit and who is worth investing in versus they did. You know. [Chris]: So I've got a question for you Nate. So being in the style of brokerage where you're the hunter killer, you're the shark. You're going out and doing everything for your business, where are you getting the insight, the direction? Where do you find time to find that on your own without you know hindering your sales business? [Nathan]: Insight direction into what? [Chris]: Future of the industry. Strategy where you need to position yourself in the next few years?  [Nathan]: Well… [Christian]: The pivoting. [Chris]: We did an episode on pivoting. [Nathan]: I mean there is more than 1 real estate podcast in the world [laughter]. [Chris]: No no. [Nathan]: I am just kidding. [Chris]: I mean why would you say something like that? [Nathan]: It's amazing what is free out there right? You know again through reading alone and listening to other podcasts or you know you can gain a path of knowledge. The other side is to talk to other agents. You know there's…I have a few colleagues here you know I am very close with. And they're not at our brokerage at all but you know if I got an issue, a question “What would you do? What do you think?”. You know I call them.  You know you play in a playground and, you know, of like people and I think it helps grow. You know, its…You know secret agents don't make money. Well secret agents aren't gonna learn. If you don't go and mix and mingle and network with people that are like you. And it doesn't have to be a ton but you're not gonna learn anything right. You have to go to a place that does have a culture of sharing ideas and not the “It's all out for me”.  You know I applaud KKW when I was there. I had that culture you know with the people that I at least worked alongside. So I think that's important. You know there's plenty of ways. Again I think it's agents. Sometimes we love to act like we're so busy but we're not. I think it's about prioritizing your day and having a daily work flow and this is a job.  So many people sometimes you know, how do you do again this is a job but it's one I love, it's one I am passionate about. If you're passionate about something you're gonna learn more about it. You guys all know I love to run. Right. I know a [censored] lot about running. [laughter] I am not good at it. I am not good at it but I know a lot about it right. So…You've loved… [Chris]: Wait what are you talking about you're not good at it? [Nathan]: I don't know well that's the good thing about running. You…To be good all you have to do is be able to run right?  [Chris]: Yeah. You start moving you don't stop. [Nathan]: Right exactly. But something you're passionate about you're gonna be inclined to learn more about it. So if you're an agent listening to this and you're not truly passionate about what you do, if you don't truly care maybe you need a different occupation. [Chris]: Or you need to talk to somebody who is passionate about what they're doing and you see if some of that can rub off on you. [Nathan]: Yeah that's a whole episode of “Your why”.  [Chris]: Yeah you gotta find your why. [Nathan]: Yeah. [Chris]: Well I want to give kudos to you because most agents, and I think you're kind of the out wire there as Christian said earlier. Most agents don't have the time or the desire or just the energy to go out and do those things, mix and mingle and have discussions with people in the industry. And for those people that's where a solid broker comes in.  For the handful that can do it on their own we're got plenty of brokers that have a solo shop and they're producing. They own a firm. They do great work, they do great jobs. So it doesn't always take a brokerage. But they're…You've gotta have some sort of community or pack mentality. You've gotta have something you believe in, something you can grow with. And something that you can aim for.  Alright everybody than you so much for tuning in to this episode of re:Think Real Estate. I think it was a great talk. If you haven't already, please go to rtrepodcast.com that's for re:Think Real Estate. So rtrepodcast.com. Sign up for our newsletter. You will be notified every time a new episode drops. Also please, please, please go to iTunes, Google Play and leave us a 5-star review in Spotify or wherever you want to find us so that people know that we're good. I don't know. Thanks for tuning everybody. Have a great week.  [music] [Chris]: Thanks for tuning in this week's episode of the re:Think Real Estate Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licensed for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

Panel: Charles Max Wood Guest: Nathan Kontny This week on My Ruby Story, the panel talks with Nathan Kontny who has been in the Ruby community since 2005. He once was a chemical engineer, and then got into programming after a broken ankle incident; after that...the rest is history! Today, Nathan and Chuck talk about Ruby, how to begin a startup company, Rockstar Coders, balancing life, and much more! In particular, we dive pretty deep on: 1:05 – Chuck: E365 is the past episode you’ve been featured on. 1:14 – Nathan comments. 1:20 – Chuck. 1:56 – Nathan: Been in the community since 2005. I am a developer and entrepreneur. I do a lot of YouTube and videos nowadays. 2:50 – Chuck: How did you get into this field? 2:55 – Guest: It’s weird. I was a chemical engineer in the past. Back in the day 1996 I was learning... My love for it started through an internship. It was kind of a scary place dealing with harmful materials. Make sure you aren’t carrying uranium with you, and wear multiple gas masks at all times. There was an acid leak through someone’s shoulder. I didn’t love it, but something fortunate happened. I broke my ankle in one summer, and when I showed-up they made me go to this trail where I couldn’t be near the chemicals. Well, the director had computer problems and asked him to help with him. I put in code and out came results. In the chemical industry it was/is: “Maybe the chemicals will react to this chemical in this way...?” It was this dopamine rush for me. After that summer, I wanted to do programming. 7:16 – Chuck: Same thing for me. This will manifest and then boom. I had a friend change to computer major – and this led me to the field. 8:45 – Guest: Yeah, I had a different career shown to me and then I had a choice. 9:02 – Chuck: How did you find Ruby? 9:05 – Guest: I got a job but they wouldn’t let me program because I didn’t have enough experience. I had to teach myself. I taught myself Java – 9 CDs back in the day. I stayed up late, and did anything I could to teach myself. I taught myself Java. I got promoted in the business and became a Java developer. After 5 years of that I started doing freelance work. I love Ruby’s language and how simple it was to me. I have flirted with other languages, but I keep coming back to Ruby. 13:00 – Chuck: The same for me, too. Oh, and this makes this so much easier, and it extends so much easier. I have questions about being an entrepreneur. Anyways, you get into Ruby and Rails, you’ve done a bunch of things. What are you proud of and/or interested in with Rails? How do you feel like Rails helps with building things? 14:00 – Guest shares his past projects.  I was proud of just hosting Rails, because there were so many changes back in the day. I have helped with open source contributions back in 2009. There was a security problem and I discovered this. Nothing happened and I just went in and fixed the bug; an infamous contribution. I am proud of my performance work. I made a plug-in for that, etc. Also, work with Highrise. 17:23 – Chuck: Yep, Highrise people will know. I’ve used Highrise in the past. 17:38 – Nathan: Yeah. 17:50 – Chuck and Nathan go back and forth. 17:58 – Chuck: You’ve done all these different things. So for a start-up what advice would you give? People are doing their own thing – what’s your advice on an incubator, or doing it alone or raising capitol? 18:41 – Nathan: I take a middle road approach. You do what makes sense with your business. What works for you? I would do that. It’s hard to pick-on what incubators could be. Ownership is everything – once you don’t own it – you loose that control. Don’t loose your equity. I wanted more control over my box. I would be careful raising money – do that as a last effort. Keep your ownership as far as you can. But if you are up against the wall – then go there. 22:29 – Chuck: Now I have 2 jobs: podcasting and developing this course. I guess my issue is how do you find the balance there between your fulltime job and your new fulltime job? 23:01 – Nathan: Yeah it’s tough. I do, too, now I am building something and trying to balance between that and Rockstar Coders. Clients have meetings and there are fires. There is no magic to it. I thought bunching your days into clusters would help me with focus, but it’s not good for the business. I don’t think the batch thing isn’t working for me. A little bit on, a little bit off. I think MT on Rockstar. Wednesday I take a half-day. Thursday all start-up, etc. It’s just balance. It can’t be lopsided one way or the other. Just living with my girlfriend and now wife was easy, but having a kid in the evening is tricky. I create nice walls that don’t interfere. I don’t know that’s it. 25:55 – Chuck: It sounds like they are completely separate. What I am building affects my people at work. I find the balance hard, too. 26:21 – Nathan: It’s also good to have partners who support you. 27:19 – Chuck: Do you start looking for help with marketing, or...? 27:27 – Nathan: Yeah that’s hard, too. Maybe? Some people aren’t in the US and they might be more affordable. My friend found someone in Europe who is awesome and their fees are cheaper. Their cost of living is cheaper than the U.S. There are talented folks out there. 28:50 – Chuck: Yeah, I had help with a guy from Argentina. I am in Utah and he was an hour ahead. So scheduling was easy. 29:27 – Nathan: I have a hard time giving that up, too. It’s hard to hire someone through startup work. Startup work needs to be done quickly, etc. BUT when things solidify then get help. 30:28 – Chuck: They see it as risky proposition. It seems like the cost is getting better so the risk is there. 30:48 – Nathan: There is tons of stops and goes if I look back into my career. In the moment they feel like failures, but really it was just a stepping-stone. It was just a source for good ideas, and writings, and things to talk at podcasters about, etc. I just feel like short-term they feel risky but in the long-term you can really squeeze out value from it. I am having trouble, right now, finding customers, it could be risky, and there might not be a market for this. But I am learning about x, y, and z. Everything is a stepping-stone for me now. I don’t feel like it’s a failure anymore to me. 32:50 – Chuck: What are you doing now? 32:55 – Guest: Rockstar. 3 / 4 teenagers want to be YouTubers! That’s just crazy and that will keep going. I want to be apart of that. I am making programs so people can make their own videos. That’s what I am fooling around with now. 35:06 – Chuck: Yeah we will have a channel. There is album art. I’m working on it.  I will start recording this week. 35:43 – Nathan: It is hard to get traction there. I don’t know why? Maybe video watchers need quicker transitions to keep interested. 36:12 – Chuck: I could supply some theories but I don’t know. I think with YouTube you actually have to watch it. Podcasts are gaining traction because you can go wherever with it. 36:51 – Nathan: Right now commuting can only be an auditory experience. When we get self-driving cars then videos will take off. 37:14 – Chuck: Picks! 37:19 – Advertisement!  Links: Ruby Elixir Rails Highrise Rockstar Coders Nathan’s Medium Nathan’s Twitter Nathan’s LinkedIn Nathan’s YouTube Past Episode with Nathan – DevChat.TV Sponsors: Code Badges Get a Coder Job Cache Fly Picks: Charles Board Games: Bubble Talk Shadow Hunters Apples to Apples The Resistance Airbnb Zion National Park Nathan Writing is important. Masterclass! Book: Living with a Seal Book: Living with the Monks Sara Blakely – Spanx

Panel: Charles Max Wood Guest: Nathan Kontny This week on My Ruby Story, the panel talks with Nathan Kontny who has been in the Ruby community since 2005. He once was a chemical engineer, and then got into programming after a broken ankle incident; after that...the rest is history! Today, Nathan and Chuck talk about Ruby, how to begin a startup company, Rockstar Coders, balancing life, and much more! In particular, we dive pretty deep on: 1:05 – Chuck: E365 is the past episode you’ve been featured on. 1:14 – Nathan comments. 1:20 – Chuck. 1:56 – Nathan: Been in the community since 2005. I am a developer and entrepreneur. I do a lot of YouTube and videos nowadays. 2:50 – Chuck: How did you get into this field? 2:55 – Guest: It’s weird. I was a chemical engineer in the past. Back in the day 1996 I was learning... My love for it started through an internship. It was kind of a scary place dealing with harmful materials. Make sure you aren’t carrying uranium with you, and wear multiple gas masks at all times. There was an acid leak through someone’s shoulder. I didn’t love it, but something fortunate happened. I broke my ankle in one summer, and when I showed-up they made me go to this trail where I couldn’t be near the chemicals. Well, the director had computer problems and asked him to help with him. I put in code and out came results. In the chemical industry it was/is: “Maybe the chemicals will react to this chemical in this way...?” It was this dopamine rush for me. After that summer, I wanted to do programming. 7:16 – Chuck: Same thing for me. This will manifest and then boom. I had a friend change to computer major – and this led me to the field. 8:45 – Guest: Yeah, I had a different career shown to me and then I had a choice. 9:02 – Chuck: How did you find Ruby? 9:05 – Guest: I got a job but they wouldn’t let me program because I didn’t have enough experience. I had to teach myself. I taught myself Java – 9 CDs back in the day. I stayed up late, and did anything I could to teach myself. I taught myself Java. I got promoted in the business and became a Java developer. After 5 years of that I started doing freelance work. I love Ruby’s language and how simple it was to me. I have flirted with other languages, but I keep coming back to Ruby. 13:00 – Chuck: The same for me, too. Oh, and this makes this so much easier, and it extends so much easier. I have questions about being an entrepreneur. Anyways, you get into Ruby and Rails, you’ve done a bunch of things. What are you proud of and/or interested in with Rails? How do you feel like Rails helps with building things? 14:00 – Guest shares his past projects.  I was proud of just hosting Rails, because there were so many changes back in the day. I have helped with open source contributions back in 2009. There was a security problem and I discovered this. Nothing happened and I just went in and fixed the bug; an infamous contribution. I am proud of my performance work. I made a plug-in for that, etc. Also, work with Highrise. 17:23 – Chuck: Yep, Highrise people will know. I’ve used Highrise in the past. 17:38 – Nathan: Yeah. 17:50 – Chuck and Nathan go back and forth. 17:58 – Chuck: You’ve done all these different things. So for a start-up what advice would you give? People are doing their own thing – what’s your advice on an incubator, or doing it alone or raising capitol? 18:41 – Nathan: I take a middle road approach. You do what makes sense with your business. What works for you? I would do that. It’s hard to pick-on what incubators could be. Ownership is everything – once you don’t own it – you loose that control. Don’t loose your equity. I wanted more control over my box. I would be careful raising money – do that as a last effort. Keep your ownership as far as you can. But if you are up against the wall – then go there. 22:29 – Chuck: Now I have 2 jobs: podcasting and developing this course. I guess my issue is how do you find the balance there between your fulltime job and your new fulltime job? 23:01 – Nathan: Yeah it’s tough. I do, too, now I am building something and trying to balance between that and Rockstar Coders. Clients have meetings and there are fires. There is no magic to it. I thought bunching your days into clusters would help me with focus, but it’s not good for the business. I don’t think the batch thing isn’t working for me. A little bit on, a little bit off. I think MT on Rockstar. Wednesday I take a half-day. Thursday all start-up, etc. It’s just balance. It can’t be lopsided one way or the other. Just living with my girlfriend and now wife was easy, but having a kid in the evening is tricky. I create nice walls that don’t interfere. I don’t know that’s it. 25:55 – Chuck: It sounds like they are completely separate. What I am building affects my people at work. I find the balance hard, too. 26:21 – Nathan: It’s also good to have partners who support you. 27:19 – Chuck: Do you start looking for help with marketing, or...? 27:27 – Nathan: Yeah that’s hard, too. Maybe? Some people aren’t in the US and they might be more affordable. My friend found someone in Europe who is awesome and their fees are cheaper. Their cost of living is cheaper than the U.S. There are talented folks out there. 28:50 – Chuck: Yeah, I had help with a guy from Argentina. I am in Utah and he was an hour ahead. So scheduling was easy. 29:27 – Nathan: I have a hard time giving that up, too. It’s hard to hire someone through startup work. Startup work needs to be done quickly, etc. BUT when things solidify then get help. 30:28 – Chuck: They see it as risky proposition. It seems like the cost is getting better so the risk is there. 30:48 – Nathan: There is tons of stops and goes if I look back into my career. In the moment they feel like failures, but really it was just a stepping-stone. It was just a source for good ideas, and writings, and things to talk at podcasters about, etc. I just feel like short-term they feel risky but in the long-term you can really squeeze out value from it. I am having trouble, right now, finding customers, it could be risky, and there might not be a market for this. But I am learning about x, y, and z. Everything is a stepping-stone for me now. I don’t feel like it’s a failure anymore to me. 32:50 – Chuck: What are you doing now? 32:55 – Guest: Rockstar. 3 / 4 teenagers want to be YouTubers! That’s just crazy and that will keep going. I want to be apart of that. I am making programs so people can make their own videos. That’s what I am fooling around with now. 35:06 – Chuck: Yeah we will have a channel. There is album art. I’m working on it.  I will start recording this week. 35:43 – Nathan: It is hard to get traction there. I don’t know why? Maybe video watchers need quicker transitions to keep interested. 36:12 – Chuck: I could supply some theories but I don’t know. I think with YouTube you actually have to watch it. Podcasts are gaining traction because you can go wherever with it. 36:51 – Nathan: Right now commuting can only be an auditory experience. When we get self-driving cars then videos will take off. 37:14 – Chuck: Picks! 37:19 – Advertisement!  Links: Ruby Elixir Rails Highrise Rockstar Coders Nathan’s Medium Nathan’s Twitter Nathan’s LinkedIn Nathan’s YouTube Past Episode with Nathan – DevChat.TV Sponsors: Code Badges Get a Coder Job Cache Fly Picks: Charles Board Games: Bubble Talk Shadow Hunters Apples to Apples The Resistance Airbnb Zion National Park Nathan Writing is important. Masterclass! Book: Living with a Seal Book: Living with the Monks Sara Blakely – Spanx

Panel: Charles Max Wood Guest: Nathan Kontny This week on My Ruby Story, the panel talks with Nathan Kontny who has been in the Ruby community since 2005. He once was a chemical engineer, and then got into programming after a broken ankle incident; after that...the rest is history! Today, Nathan and Chuck talk about Ruby, how to begin a startup company, Rockstar Coders, balancing life, and much more! In particular, we dive pretty deep on: 1:05 – Chuck: E365 is the past episode you’ve been featured on. 1:14 – Nathan comments. 1:20 – Chuck. 1:56 – Nathan: Been in the community since 2005. I am a developer and entrepreneur. I do a lot of YouTube and videos nowadays. 2:50 – Chuck: How did you get into this field? 2:55 – Guest: It’s weird. I was a chemical engineer in the past. Back in the day 1996 I was learning... My love for it started through an internship. It was kind of a scary place dealing with harmful materials. Make sure you aren’t carrying uranium with you, and wear multiple gas masks at all times. There was an acid leak through someone’s shoulder. I didn’t love it, but something fortunate happened. I broke my ankle in one summer, and when I showed-up they made me go to this trail where I couldn’t be near the chemicals. Well, the director had computer problems and asked him to help with him. I put in code and out came results. In the chemical industry it was/is: “Maybe the chemicals will react to this chemical in this way...?” It was this dopamine rush for me. After that summer, I wanted to do programming. 7:16 – Chuck: Same thing for me. This will manifest and then boom. I had a friend change to computer major – and this led me to the field. 8:45 – Guest: Yeah, I had a different career shown to me and then I had a choice. 9:02 – Chuck: How did you find Ruby? 9:05 – Guest: I got a job but they wouldn’t let me program because I didn’t have enough experience. I had to teach myself. I taught myself Java – 9 CDs back in the day. I stayed up late, and did anything I could to teach myself. I taught myself Java. I got promoted in the business and became a Java developer. After 5 years of that I started doing freelance work. I love Ruby’s language and how simple it was to me. I have flirted with other languages, but I keep coming back to Ruby. 13:00 – Chuck: The same for me, too. Oh, and this makes this so much easier, and it extends so much easier. I have questions about being an entrepreneur. Anyways, you get into Ruby and Rails, you’ve done a bunch of things. What are you proud of and/or interested in with Rails? How do you feel like Rails helps with building things? 14:00 – Guest shares his past projects.  I was proud of just hosting Rails, because there were so many changes back in the day. I have helped with open source contributions back in 2009. There was a security problem and I discovered this. Nothing happened and I just went in and fixed the bug; an infamous contribution. I am proud of my performance work. I made a plug-in for that, etc. Also, work with Highrise. 17:23 – Chuck: Yep, Highrise people will know. I’ve used Highrise in the past. 17:38 – Nathan: Yeah. 17:50 – Chuck and Nathan go back and forth. 17:58 – Chuck: You’ve done all these different things. So for a start-up what advice would you give? People are doing their own thing – what’s your advice on an incubator, or doing it alone or raising capitol? 18:41 – Nathan: I take a middle road approach. You do what makes sense with your business. What works for you? I would do that. It’s hard to pick-on what incubators could be. Ownership is everything – once you don’t own it – you loose that control. Don’t loose your equity. I wanted more control over my box. I would be careful raising money – do that as a last effort. Keep your ownership as far as you can. But if you are up against the wall – then go there. 22:29 – Chuck: Now I have 2 jobs: podcasting and developing this course. I guess my issue is how do you find the balance there between your fulltime job and your new fulltime job? 23:01 – Nathan: Yeah it’s tough. I do, too, now I am building something and trying to balance between that and Rockstar Coders. Clients have meetings and there are fires. There is no magic to it. I thought bunching your days into clusters would help me with focus, but it’s not good for the business. I don’t think the batch thing isn’t working for me. A little bit on, a little bit off. I think MT on Rockstar. Wednesday I take a half-day. Thursday all start-up, etc. It’s just balance. It can’t be lopsided one way or the other. Just living with my girlfriend and now wife was easy, but having a kid in the evening is tricky. I create nice walls that don’t interfere. I don’t know that’s it. 25:55 – Chuck: It sounds like they are completely separate. What I am building affects my people at work. I find the balance hard, too. 26:21 – Nathan: It’s also good to have partners who support you. 27:19 – Chuck: Do you start looking for help with marketing, or...? 27:27 – Nathan: Yeah that’s hard, too. Maybe? Some people aren’t in the US and they might be more affordable. My friend found someone in Europe who is awesome and their fees are cheaper. Their cost of living is cheaper than the U.S. There are talented folks out there. 28:50 – Chuck: Yeah, I had help with a guy from Argentina. I am in Utah and he was an hour ahead. So scheduling was easy. 29:27 – Nathan: I have a hard time giving that up, too. It’s hard to hire someone through startup work. Startup work needs to be done quickly, etc. BUT when things solidify then get help. 30:28 – Chuck: They see it as risky proposition. It seems like the cost is getting better so the risk is there. 30:48 – Nathan: There is tons of stops and goes if I look back into my career. In the moment they feel like failures, but really it was just a stepping-stone. It was just a source for good ideas, and writings, and things to talk at podcasters about, etc. I just feel like short-term they feel risky but in the long-term you can really squeeze out value from it. I am having trouble, right now, finding customers, it could be risky, and there might not be a market for this. But I am learning about x, y, and z. Everything is a stepping-stone for me now. I don’t feel like it’s a failure anymore to me. 32:50 – Chuck: What are you doing now? 32:55 – Guest: Rockstar. 3 / 4 teenagers want to be YouTubers! That’s just crazy and that will keep going. I want to be apart of that. I am making programs so people can make their own videos. That’s what I am fooling around with now. 35:06 – Chuck: Yeah we will have a channel. There is album art. I’m working on it.  I will start recording this week. 35:43 – Nathan: It is hard to get traction there. I don’t know why? Maybe video watchers need quicker transitions to keep interested. 36:12 – Chuck: I could supply some theories but I don’t know. I think with YouTube you actually have to watch it. Podcasts are gaining traction because you can go wherever with it. 36:51 – Nathan: Right now commuting can only be an auditory experience. When we get self-driving cars then videos will take off. 37:14 – Chuck: Picks! 37:19 – Advertisement!  Links: Ruby Elixir Rails Highrise Rockstar Coders Nathan’s Medium Nathan’s Twitter Nathan’s LinkedIn Nathan’s YouTube Past Episode with Nathan – DevChat.TV Sponsors: Code Badges Get a Coder Job Cache Fly Picks: Charles Board Games: Bubble Talk Shadow Hunters Apples to Apples The Resistance Airbnb Zion National Park Nathan Writing is important. Masterclass! Book: Living with a Seal Book: Living with the Monks Sara Blakely – Spanx

Speaker, Author and email marketing pro Nathan Littleton joins Claire on today’s episode of Expert Focus. From being a 12 year old web designer to building email newsletters that convert and get massive results, Nathan is no stranger to the world of business, and what works within the realm of marketing and human psychology. Tune in to find out useful things you can be applying to your own emails!   In This Episode How Nathan got his start in business at 12 years old and how it lead to email marketing How marketing has changed, and why money is being wasted The principle of 80/20 in email marketing Awful subject lines and how to improve them A moment of fear and a ridiculous response   “I started my first business when I was 12” - Nathan “There’s a lot of wasted money that’s going into marketing right now” - Nathan “People want to work with people who make their life easy” - Claire “It’s not just about being great, it’s about being helpful as well” - Claire “The content you create is based on an area of your expertise” - Nathan “Email newsletters can work, just don’t copy everything you see in your own email inbox”