Podcast appearances and mentions of dickie bush

Dickie Bush is the Co-Founder of Ship 30 for 30, Premium Ghostwriting Academy (PGA), and Write With AI, where he helps freelance writers, ghostwriters, and entrepreneurs scale their writing businesses with cutting-edge strategies and tools. At PGA, Dickie equips writers to become premium ghostwriters, land high-value clients, and build thriving ghostwriting agencies. With Write With AI, he shares actionable insights on leveraging AI platforms like ChatGPT to become your own Digital Writing Assistant. In this video, Dickie dives into the latest trends in digital consumption growth, strategies for differentiating in saturated markets, and optimizing content for revenue growth. He also shares practical tips on building a successful newsletter, managing financial risks in entrepreneurship, and creating social proof for online courses. Dickie emphasizes the power of consistency in mentorship, personal habits in driving sales success and using internal insights to craft impactful content. If you want to improve sales funnels, tackle cold traffic, and overcome ad fears, this episode offers insights to scale your business and seize new opportunities.Chapters:(03:47) Trends in Digital Consumption Growth(07:47) Strategies for Differentiating in Physical Delivery Markets(11:47) Optimizing Content for Revenue Growth(15:44) The Power of a Weekly Newsletter(19:40) Navigating Financial Risks in Entrepreneurship(23:29) Building Social Proof for Online Courses(31:28) The Importance of Consistency in Mentorship(35:18) The Role of Personal Habits in Sales Success(39:12) Leveraging Internal Insights for Content Creation(43:11) Optimizing Employee Efficiency and Responsibilities(50:46) Sales Funnel Metrics(54:53) The Challenges of Selling to Cold Traffic(59:07) Overcoming Fear of Paid Advertising This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit orbitmarketing.substack.com

Watch the YouTube version of this episode HEREAre you looking for ways to make better content? In this episode of Maximum Lawyer, Tyson shares five simple yet effective ways to expand any idea, inspired by writer Dickie Bush. Tyson discusses the 5 things that can be used to expand not only an idea, but content. One way is to connect tips with an idea to relate it back to a core thought and propose an action step. The second is statistics and informing people of factual aspects of a topic to make it reliable. The third thing is to break ideas into steps to make an idea more digestible and easier for someone to understand. The fourth thing is adding stories to content, which can make content more memorable. And the last thing is quotes, which can be used to tie an idea back to reality and make it more believable to an audience.Listen in to learn more!1:14 Expanding content ideas2:09 Using reliable statistics to add authority to content3:57 How stories make content more memorable and digestible4:49 The effectiveness of using quotes to add credibility to contentTune in to today's episode and checkout the full show notes here.

Ready to build a high-ranking & profitable podcast? ➡️ https://top10podcasts.com/start▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬I'm joined by Kevin Shen, the mastermind behind podcast studios for creators like Sam Parr, Shaan Puri, Dickie Bush, and Nathan Berry. Kevin walks us through his C-L-A-B method—Camera, Lighting, Audio, and Background—designed to help you build an efficient and professional podcast studio that saves time and money while delivering high-quality content. We talk about how to design your studio for a seamless workflow and avoid common mistakes like bad lighting or poor camera angles. Kevin also shares budgeting tips, including how much to invest in a “dream studio” and why lighting is often more important than people think. Don't miss his advice on getting your background design just right to boost credibility and create impact. So, whether you're starting from scratch or upgrading your current setup, Kevin's insights will set you up for lasting success. Plus, grab Kevin's free gift to see 250+ studio setups for inspiration. In This Episode:00:00 Introduction 01:25 Kevin Shen's experience and clientele02:59 Importance of workflow in studio design06:35 How getting the studio right impacts productivity 11:30 Steps of setting up a podcast studio: The C-L-A-B method 14:46 Designing for camera vs. interior design18:49 Common mistakes in podcast studio setup22:16 Importance of podcast studio lighting setup24:01 Dealing with natural light challenges26:16 Budgeting for a podcast studio setup29:55 Using Pinterest for studio design32:12 Kevin's favorite podcast studio equipment: TelepromptersGet Kevin Shen's Free Gift:Dream Studio Starter Kit: https://dreamstudio.co/starter-kit ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬Connect with Kevin Shen:► Website: https://dreamstudio.co/ ► Instagram: https://instagram.com/thekevinshen ► YouTube: https://youtube.com/thekevinshen ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬

Do you want to grow your podcast and monetise your audience? Get my exact system here: https://voics.ck.page/a25aeb8082Making money online has never been easier.Dickie Bush joins us on Kickoff Sessions to reveal how he went from zero to 326K Twitter followers and built Ship 30 for 30, a multimillion-dollar writing program.We dive deep into the importance of lean writing, rapid validation of ideas, and how to scale a digital writing course from a single tweet to over 4,000 members. He also discusses balancing personal development with business growth, from losing 100 pounds to developing a high-cash-flow business model. You will also learn key strategies for scaling online businesses, how to build SaaS tools, and master the infinite game of entrepreneurship.If you're looking to break free from the 9-to-5 grind and make your first 10k/month online, watch till the end as Dickie reveals the exact strategy you can implement today to get there Enjoyed the episode?Hit the like button and turn on notifications to stay updated!Connect with DickieLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dickiebush/My Socials:Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/darrenlee.ksLinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/darren-lee1(00:00) Preview and Intro (02:05) Building a Multi-Million Dollar Business(05:10) Overcoming Imposter Syndrome in Business(11:26) Adapting Teaching Methods to Audience Needs(15:07) Scaling Strategies(18:09) Selling to Cold Audiences for Growth(22:18) Personal Branding in Business (28:26) Creating the Perfect Pricing Model (31:25) Organic Growth vs. Paid Ads(39:33) Transition from Wall Street to Entrepreneurship(47:09) How to Make Your First Dollar Online(56:21) Channeling Obsessions for Success(01:01:03) The Reality of Weight Loss Stages(01:08:59) Balancing Health, Wealth, and Relationships(01:14:09) Transitioning from Corporate Life to Entrepreneurship(01:20:01) Prioritizing Growth Areas in Business(01:24:10) SaaS Challenges: Scaling vs. Splitting FocusSupport the show

Join us for an insightful discussion with Dickie Bush, Co-Founder of Premium Ghostwriting Academy, and Nicolas Cole, Co-Founder of Ship 30 for 30. We discuss how writing entrepreneurs can leverage Chat-GPT and Kindle Unlimited to build a profitable portfolio of books in underserved niches. We'll explore various career paths for writers and share innovative startup ideas to kickstart your success in the writing industry. Don't miss out on this episode packed with valuable tips and strategies for aspiring authors and entrepreneurs!

Guest: Dickie Bush  Twitter - https://twitter.com/dickiebush Host: Brett Malinowski Twitter - https://twitter.com/thebrettway?lang=en Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/thebrettway.eth/

Brennan Dunn is the author of This Is Personal, The Art of Delivering the Right Email at the Right Time.For the last decade, Brennan Dunn has been building "email-first" businesses.Currently, he owns and operates two companies: RightMessage, a software company that builds personalized marketing software, and Double Your Freelancing, an online community offering courses, events, and other resources to 60,000+ freelancers and agencies.In this episode, we discuss:

Complete the brand survey Here: https://rebrand.ly/CalumSurvey Get your first month of Castmagic Free (Use code CALUMFREEMONTH): https://bit.ly/CalumCastMagic 24 months ago, Dickie knew that he had to leave his high-paying Wall Street job. He started writing everyday on the internet and accidentally stumbled into his first $5,000 ghostwriting client. Fast forward to now, he has made over $10M writing on the internet. In this episode he shares all the steps he took to get here: Timestamps 00:00 Intro 02:30 Why Dickie decided to quit his Wall Street job 12:47 The dedication it takes to start a business on the side. 16:24 How to choose the right skill to focus on. 20:10 How to get clients by publishing your work online. 25:51 The mindset to get through your dark phase. 29:25 How Dickie made his first $5k writing online. 37:21 Why you must take action this 2024. 44:48 How Dickie started and scaled Ship 30 for 30. 49:12 How anyone can monetize their hobby 55:03 The first step to make money writing online. 58:56 How to get your first Ghostwriting client without a testimonial 1:08:15 How to scale your Ghostwriting services to $50k/month 1:11:31 Alex Hormozi's method for creating a Grand Slam offer. 1:14:29 The experience of going from $5k to $1M. Follow Us! Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/calumjohnson1/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/calum_johnson9 Guest: https://www.instagram.com/dickiebush

In this week's episode, Patrick Donley (@JPatrickDonley) sits down with Dickie Bush, a former BlackRock portfolio manager turned digital entrepreneur. You'll learn the secrets to Dickie's success in football, on Wall Street, online as a writer and content creator, and even how he lost 100 pounds after his football career at Princeton ended.  Dickie co-founded Ship30For30, a cohort-based course which has helped over 10,000 students start writing. He's a former professional online gamer and captain of the Princeton football team who has gone on to build a successful career on Wall Street and more recently, as a digital entrepreneur.   IN THIS EPISODE, YOU'LL LEARN: 00:00 - Intro. 02:43 - How video games taught him more than his Ivy League degree about business. 05:45 - What “obsession based” learning is. 07:53 - What his experience at BlackRock was like and why he left. 10:49 - When you should consider leaving a job. 11:36 - How he got started with a blog synthesizing content he was already listening to. 19:46 - What his early days on Twitter were like. 30:53 - How he made $10,000 as a ghostwriter. 36:59 - What the impetus of Ship30For30 was and how he developed the program. 40:36 - How he eliminated his scarcity mindset and improved his relationship with money. 44:18 - Why you should create a “memory dividend” fund with your money. 53:47 - Why you need to save the first $100,000 in cash before you start investing. 57:40 - Why he spent $68,000 on a mastermind group. 63:31 - How he lost 100 pounds and what nutrition system worked best. 68:04 - What keeps people from writing and a tool to generate topics to write about. *Disclaimer: Slight timestamp discrepancies may occur due to podcast platform differences. BOOKS AND RESOURCES Join the exclusive TIP Mastermind Community to engage in meaningful stock investing discussions with Kyle and the other community members. Recommended book: The Almanack of Naval Ravikant by Eric Jorgenson. Recommended book: Die with Zero by Bill Perkins. Recommended book: The Anthology of Balaji by Eric Jorgenson. Recommended book: 4 Hour Workweek by Tim Ferriss. Check out the books mentioned in the podcast here. NEW TO THE SHOW? Follow our official social media accounts: X (Twitter) | LinkedIn | Instagram | Facebook | TikTok. Check out our Millennial Investing Starter Packs. Browse through all our episodes (complete with transcripts) here. Try Kyle's favorite tool for picking stock winners and managing our portfolios: TIP Finance. Enjoy exclusive perks from our favorite Apps and Services. Stay up-to-date on financial markets and investing strategies through our daily newsletter, We Study Markets. Learn how to better start, manage, and grow your business with the best business podcasts. SPONSORS Support our free podcast by supporting our sponsors: Linkedin Marketing Solutions Fundrise TurboTax HelloFresh NetSuite Connect with Patrick: Twitter Connect with Dickie: Website | Twitter  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The original Dickie Bush inconvenient truths thread https://x.com/dickiebush/status/1509510847680454659?s=20

I'm joined by Dickie Bush, Co-Founder of Premium Ghostwriting Academy and Nicolas Cole, Co-Founder of Ship 30 for 30. We talk about the best ways to make $10M in 2024 if you were starting from scratch: hyper-niche paid newsletters, AI-powered book publishing, and so much more.

As one year comes to a close and a new year is on the horizon, how should a nonprofit leader prepare for what lies ahead?On today's episode, Tim and Nathan share some of the questions and strategies they use to prepare for a new year.  The questions lead them to take a look back and then to look forward.  The questions include celebration, honesty, hope, and challenge.   Taking the time to reflect backwards and then look forward, provides the opportunity to start off the year with a sense of confidence and focus.Tim mentioned questions from an annual review document put together by Dickie Bush of Ship 30 for 30.  You can find it here.Tim and Nathan are going to be taking some time off over the holidays.  Feel free to look back through our previous episodes.  We will see you in the new year!If you would like to get in touch with us, you can do so at:  info@practicenpleader.com.The Hosts of The Practice of NonProfit Leadership:Tim Barnes serves as the Executive Vice President of International Association for Refugees (IAFR) and can be contacted at tim@iafr.org. Nathan Ruby serves as the Executive Director of Friends of the Children of Haiti (FOTCOH) and can be contacted at nruby@fotcoh.org.All opinions and views expressed by the hosts are their own and do not necessarily represent those of their respective organizations.

If you don't know how to write, you will not win on the internet. Kipp and Kieran are joined by guest Greg Isenberg (CEO & Co-Founder at Late Checkout) to dive into the growing trend of personality-led growth in marketing. Learn more on approaching PLG in B2B and B2C, a masterclass on audience building, and why knowing how to write is crucial to your success. About Greg Isenberg Greg Isenberg is the Co-Founder of Late Checkout, a web3 and community product studio and agency that designs, creates, and acquires internet communities. Besides building internet communities, he is also a growth advisor at TikTok and a venture partner at Indicator Ventures, a tech venture fund. Previously, Greg was the Head of Product Strategy at WeWork, the founder/CEO of Islands, a messaging/community app acquired by WeWork, and the Founder/CEO of 5by, a leading video discovery app acquired by StumbleUpon. He helps build marketing and web3 strategies, communities, and technology products for brands like TikTok, FedEx, NASCAR, TechCrunch, and WordPress. Connect with Greg! Twitter https://twitter.com/gregisenberg  LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/gisenberg/  Podcast https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/where-it-happens/id1593424985  Late Checkout https://latecheckout.studio/  Mentions "30 for 30" Course by Dickie Bush and Nicholas Cole https://www.ship30for30.com/  “Write of Passage” course by David Perell https://take.writeofpassage.school/  Community Empire https://www.communityempire.co/  We're on Social Media! Follow us for everyday marketing wisdom straight to your feed YouTube: ​​https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGtXqPiNV8YC0GMUzY-EUFg  Twitter: https://twitter.com/matgpod  TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@matgpod  Thank you for tuning into Marketing Against The Grain! Don't forget to hit subscribe and follow us on Apple Podcasts (so you never miss an episode)! https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/marketing-against-the-grain/id1616700934   If you love this show, please leave us a 5-Star Review https://link.chtbl.com/h9_sjBKH and share your favorite episodes with friends. We really appreciate your support. Host Links: Kipp Bodnar, https://twitter.com/kippbodnar   Kieran Flanagan, https://twitter.com/searchbrat  ‘Marketing Against The Grain' is a HubSpot Original Podcast // Brought to you by The HubSpot Podcast Network // Produced by Darren Clarke.

Dickie Bush (@dickiebush) discusses Ship 30 for 30, a movement he started to transform writing from a solitary to a communal activity, now a structured course. Along with Nicholas Cole, their partnership propelled Ship 30 to new heights. They emphasize the role of community and social media like Twitter in refining ideas and building credibility. Our discussion contrasts digital and traditional writing, explores content creation challenges like imposter syndrome, and shares tips for resonating content creation. We dive into the software and media realms, highlighting the value of small iterations and immediate feedback in product creation. We touch on the promise of dictation software and delve into Dickie's personal inspiration, his mom, who's not only influenced his journey but also become a cherished figure in the Ship 30 community.Dickie on Twitter: https://twitter.com/dickiebushShip 30 for 30: https://www.ship30for30.com/00:00:00 Modern Writing00:05:37 Start Writing Community, Overcome Challenges00:12:56 Test and Refine Ideas With Twitter00:16:59 Content Creation and Imposter Syndrome00:26:53 Writing for Personal Growth and Teaching00:37:29 Building Software for Publishing Atomic Essays00:40:58 Ship30 and Writing Ventures00:51:21 Discussion on Writing and Publishing BooksThis episode is sponsored by Acquire.comThe blog post: https://thebootstrappedfounder.com/dickie-bush-the-power-of-digital-writing/The podcast episode: https://share.transistor.fm/s/f6d25fb5The video: https://youtu.be/GiDmVoHwE-QYou'll find my weekly article on my blog: https://thebootstrappedfounder.comPodcast: https://thebootstrappedfounder.com/podcastNewsletter: https://thebootstrappedfounder.com/newsletterMy book Zero to Sold: https://zerotosold.com/My book The Embedded Entrepreneur: https://embeddedentrepreneur.com/My course Find Your Following: https://findyourfollowing.comHere are a few tools I use. Using my affiliate links will support my work at no additional cost to you.- Notion (which I use to organize, write, coordinate, and archive my podcast + newsletter): https://affiliate.notion.so/465mv1536drx- Riverside.fm (that's what I recorded this episode with): https://riverside.fm/?via=arvid- TweetHunter (for speedy scheduling and writing Tweets): http://tweethunter.io/?via=arvid- HypeFury (for massive Twitter analytics and scheduling): https://hypefury.com/?via=arvid60- AudioPen (for taking voice notes and getting amazing summaries): https://audiopen.ai/?aff=PXErZ- Descript (for word-based video editing, subtitles, and clips): https://www.descript.com/?lmref=3cf39Q- ConvertKit (for email lists, newsletters, even finding sponsors): https://convertkit.com?lmref=bN9CZw (00:00) - Modern Writing (05:37) - Start Writing Community, Overcome Challenges (12:56) - Test and Refine Ideas With Twitter (16:59) - Content Creation and Imposter Syndrome (26:53) - Writing for Personal Growth and Teaching (37:29) - Building Software for Publishing Atomic Essays (40:58) - Ship30 and Writing Ventures (51:21) - Discussion on Writing and Publishing Books

In today's episode, I talk to Dickie Bush, a former BlackRock portfolio manager turned digital entrepreneur. Dickie co-founded Ship30For30, a cohort-based course which has helped over 10,000 students start writing, along with other writing ventures like Typeshare, Write With AI, and the Premium Ghostwriting Academy.A former online gamer and captain of the Princeton football team, Dickie's ability to transfer skills from seemingly unrelated past lives into his businesses has been incredible to watch. He currently sits at 370,000 followers on X, 57,000 on LinkedIn and just finished building his impressive YouTube studio called The Shipyard.Today, we talk using

Welcome to another episode of the Testing Peers podcast.Tara Walton and Vernon Richards join Chris on this week's episode as we talk about content creation.Before diving into the main topic, Vernon introduces the banter topic of travelling pet peeves - familiar topics covered included comfort, fear, other people, hidden costs and more.Then we dive into the main topic of content creation.We cover what motivates us to create content?To vent, respond, share, build a personal brand, share skills & knowledge, reframe topics to your context, sharpen your thoughts, and gain feedback.The Peers talk about changes and challenges they've been through in their content creation journey.Ever thought 'what about all these other people who have already written about this topic?'We also discuss audience, building on a seed of an idea, seeking feedback and more.The art of telling an appropriate story relevant to the audience and how useful that is to us as a tester.Some useful links that we mention:Leading Quality by Ronald Cummings John and Owais PeerPart-Time YouTuber Academy by Ali AbdaalStart With Why by Simon SinekShip 30 for 30 by Dickie Bush & Nicolas ColeTara on medium.comVernon on typeshare.coWe hope you found the discussion useful and would love to hear your feedback.ContactUs@TestingPeers.comTwitter (https://twitter.com/testingpeers)LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/testing-peers)Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/testingpeers/)Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/TestingPeers)We're also now on GoodPods, check it out via the mobile app storesIf you like what we do and are able to, please visit our Patreon to explore how you could support us going forwards: https://www.patreon.com/testingpeersSaffron QA is a provider of recruitment and consultancy services, exclusively for the software testing industry.You can find out more at https://saffronqa.co.uk/  or on LinkedInSupport the show

Zlatko "Z" Bijelic is a serial entrepreneur known for several innovative businesses, including Sparetoolz, an app for sharing and renting tools; Thymeline, a timeline-based client communication tool; and Tako Agency, a 7-figure full-service Shopify agency. Currently, Zlatko is focusing on his new venture, 920Four, a product agency that transforms client needs and ideas observed at Tako into practical, problem-solving products. In this episode, we discuss Zlatko's experiences building connections on Twitter, the books that significantly altered Zlatko's perspective and his journey, overcoming the fear of writing by joining the Ship 30 for 30 challenge, Zlatko's unique take on defining success, thoughts on Bitcoin, and personal branding. We also get into embracing failure, taking the first step towards starting a business, the impact of bias towards action, intrinsic curiosity and how to juggle multiple projects while maintaining a strong focus on prioritization. Check out the What Is My Brain Podcast:→ Website: zlatkobijelic.com/podcast→ LinkedIn: linkedin.com/company/what-is-my-brain-podcast/→ Twitter: twitter.com/whatismybrain_→ Instagram: instagram.com/whatismybrainpodcast/→ Youtube: youtube.com/@whatismybrain→ TikTok: tiktok.com/@whatismybrainpodcast Connect with Zlatko:→ Website: zlatkobijelic.com→ LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/zbijelic/→ Twitter: twitter.com/Zbijelic→ Instagram: instagram.com/zlatko.bijelic Resources Mentioned in The Episode:→ Your Music and People: amazon.com/Your-Music-People-Creative-Considerate→ Noah Zender: twitter.com/noahzender→ Ship30for30: ship30for30.com→ 3 common mistakes early-stage founders make (Article): zlatkobijelic.com/post/3-common-mistakes-early-stage-founders-make→ A new beginning for the third time (Article): zlatkobijelic.medium.com/short-story-a-new-beginning-for-the-third-time-aa750f08f3c0→ Dan Koe: thedankoe.com→ Focusmate: focusmate.com→ Dickie Bush: dickiebush.com→ Nicholas Cole: twitter.com/Nicolascole77→ Cold Email Wizard: twitter.com/blackhatwizardd→ Cal Newport: calnewport.com→ Tim Ferris: tim.blog→ Daniel Fazio: twitter.com/thedanielfazio→ Write of Passage: writeofpassage.school→ Asana: asana.com→ Trello: trello.com→ Danny Miranda: twitter.com/heydannymiranda Help The Louis and Kyle Show:→ If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend or leave a review!→ Leave a review: podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/1504333834→ Drop us an email: LouisandKyleShow@gmail.com→ Subscribe on YouTube: youtube.com/channel/UCb6qBiV1HAYcep87nKJmGhA Follow The Show on Social Media:→ Twitter: twitter.com/LouisKyleShow→ Instagram: instagram.com/louiskyleshow→ LinkedIn: linkedin.com/company/65567567 Connect with Louis and Kyle:→ Read Louis' Newsletter: louisshulman.substack.com→ Louis' Twitter: twitter.com/LouisShulman→ Kyle's Twitter: twitter.com/_kylebishop→ Louis LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/louisshulman→ Kyle's LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kyle-bishop-7b790050

Dickie Bush, Founder of ship 30 for 30 digital writing course, is back to talk about his 5 Productive Pillars of Potent Deep Work Sessions. If you crave the satisfaction that comes from being ultra-productive and immersed in your work, then this podcast is for you. Dickie details his framework that, begins with the night before his deep work session, to how he primes his session and even the beverages he drinks. This is a fantastic podcast from one of the leaders in creative thinking. Dickie guides us to be more focused and deliberate with every minute we have. Keeping an open mind, eliminating digital distractions, and returning to your goals to create momentum to propel ourselves forward. Follow Dickie on Twitter Start writing online in 30 days with ship30for30 Sign up for Erik's weekly newsletter - Adaptation Get Early Access to the AIM7 Beta App Episode 2 Quotable moments: 14:40 “What is your approach to getting things done? And I didn't really have a clear answer. I think it kind of goes back to that identity list of you have these ideas in your head of what you are or how you do things, but until you put them down on paper, you've never clarified it.” 15:33 “My approach [is] abandoning every complex app and to-do software and things like that that I used to spend hours trying to perfect. And really just coming back to like a pen-and-paper list where I keep track of different areas, my projects, tasks, and open loops. 20:52 “I think you can only be progressing in three things at any given time. And I've realized that the amount of effort that it takes to grow something is usually far more than people think, and the amount of effort that it takes to maintain is usually far less.” 23:46 “That delayed residual I've applied to health, business, relationship, hobbies, all of that. And it all comes back to if I know that I'm gonna be playing this game for a long time, this game of life, I know I'm going to have plenty of time to apply that uni-directional training on a bunch of different areas.” ABOUT THE BLUEPRINT PODCAST: The BluePrint Podcast is for busy professionals and Household CEOs who care deeply about their families, career, and health. Host Dr. Erik Korem distills cutting edge-science, leadership, and life skills into simple tactics optimized for your busy lifestyle and goals.   Dr. Korem interviews scientists, coaches, elite athletes, entrepreneurs, entertainers, and exceptional people to discuss science and practical skills you can implement to become the most healthy, resilient, and impactful version of yourself. On a mission to equip people to pursue audacious goals, thrive in uncertainty, and live a healthy and fulfilled life, Dr. Erik Korem is a High-Performance pioneer. He introduced sports science and athlete-tracking technologies to collegiate and professional (NFL) football over a decade ago. He has worked with the National Football League, Power-5 NCAA programs, gold-medal Olympians, Nike, and the United States Department of Defense. Erik is an expert in sleep and stress resilience. He is the Founder and CEO of AIM7, a health and fitness app that unlocks the power of wearables by providing you with daily personalized recommendations to enhance your mind, body, and recovery. SUPPORT & CONNECT Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/erikkorem/ Twitter - https://twitter.com/ErikKorem LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/erik-korem-phd-19991734/ Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/erikkorem Website - https://www.erikkorem.com/ Newsletter - https://erikkoremhpcoach.activehosted.com/f  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In this podcast episode, Dr. Erik Korem sits down with Dickie Bush, a prolific writer, content creator, and educator, to discuss his Six Core Pillars for organizing personal and business life. By simplifying and organizing tasks through a lens of focus and management, Dickie shares how you can achieve big and small goals while balancing other areas of your life. The podcast also covers how attempting to improve everything at once is a recipe for disaster and the concept of delayed residuals. Join in to learn more about these practical strategies to increase productivity and sustainability in the long run. Follow Dickie on Twitter Start writing online in 30 days with ship30for30 Sign up for Erik's weekly newsletter - Adaptation Join the AIM7 Beta Community Episode 3 Quotable moments: 35:28 “And so I went to bed thinking about it. I wake up, I'll get those ideas outta my head to continue moving that forward. And so, like I said, on either the treadmill or something like, Just kind of keep pushing it.” 39:03 *“I try to optimize as many days as possible for that and then not feel guilty if the rest of the day doesn't lead to anything, cuz I know that I can always have that time.” 39*:13 “It gives me a lot of comfort of I know I'm at any 2 hours of work away from elite clarity or moving the needle forward. And if I have that blocked every day, it's like I live much more stress-free because I know I'm gonna be able to tackle those.” 41:16 “Each thing kind of builds on its own, like the brain dump. I wake up, I move, then I sit down on my computer and I don't have to close out a bunch of things. It's like just starting those ideas down.” ABOUT THE BLUEPRINT PODCAST: The BluePrint Podcast is for busy professionals and Household CEOs who care deeply about their families, career, and health. Host Dr. Erik Korem distills cutting edge-science, leadership, and life skills into simple tactics optimized for your busy lifestyle and goals.   Dr. Korem interviews scientists, coaches, elite athletes, entrepreneurs, entertainers, and exceptional people to discuss science and practical skills you can implement to become the most healthy, resilient, and impactful version of yourself. On a mission to equip people to pursue audacious goals, thrive in uncertainty, and live a healthy and fulfilled life, Dr. Erik Korem is a High-Performance pioneer. He introduced sports science and athlete-tracking technologies to collegiate and professional (NFL) football over a decade ago. He has worked with the National Football League, Power-5 NCAA programs, gold-medal Olympians, Nike, and the United States Department of Defense. Erik is an expert in sleep and stress resilience. He is the Founder and CEO of AIM7, a health and fitness app that unlocks the power of wearables by providing you with daily personalized recommendations to enhance your mind, body, and recovery. SUPPORT & CONNECT Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/erikkorem/ Twitter - https://twitter.com/ErikKorem LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/erik-korem-phd-19991734/ Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/erikkorem Website - https://www.erikkorem.com/ Newsletter - https://erikkoremhpcoach.activehosted.com/f    See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Co-founder of Ship 30 for 30, a community-powered course that helps people start writing online joins me to discuss how to build a health identity. In 5 years Dickie went from 280 lbs, drinking 30 beers a week, and in debt to 190 lbs, abstaining from alcohol, and financially solvent. In this episode, we discuss the steps he took to make the physical change, and the process of psychologically building a new health identity. Don't miss this inspiring and actionable episode. Follow Dickie on Twitter Start writing online in 30 days with ship30for30 Sign up for Erik's weekly newsletter - Adaptation Join the AIM7 Beta Community Episode 1 Quotable moments: 1:52 “The second my [college football] career ended, I was an average person who weighed 280 pounds and that doesn't do much for you in the real world.” 6:33 “I've done carnivore. I went vegan for a month. I've really tried everything just to see, but it all kind of comes back to where I'm at now of eating either more than you're burning or less than you're burning and figuring out how to, you know, adjust things from there.” 7:04 “If you wanna lose weight, there has to be a restriction of some sort. And you can restrict calories in a lot of ways. You could be vegan and overeat and gain weight. You can be a carnivore and overeat and gain weight.” 11:16 “You can spend the first 23 years, which is what I did of my life with a certain identity, and it doesn't, even after five years, it doesn't just flip the switch, right? 12:01 “I think you have to stack evidence and prove it to yourself. And so I'm still in that process, but like at the top of that document is, hasn't missed a strength training workout in two years. So I think that's proving to myself.” ABOUT THE BLUEPRINT PODCAST: The BluePrint Podcast is for busy professionals and Household CEOs who care deeply about their families, career, and health. Host Dr. Erik Korem distills cutting edge-science, leadership, and life skills into simple tactics optimized for your busy lifestyle and goals.   Dr. Korem interviews scientists, coaches, elite athletes, entrepreneurs, entertainers, and exceptional people to discuss science and practical skills you can implement to become the most healthy, resilient, and impactful version of yourself. On a mission to equip people to pursue audacious goals, thrive in uncertainty, and live a healthy and fulfilled life, Dr. Erik Korem is a High-Performance pioneer. He introduced sports science and athlete-tracking technologies to collegiate and professional (NFL) football over a decade ago. He has worked with the National Football League, Power-5 NCAA programs, gold-medal Olympians, Nike, and the United States Department of Defense. Erik is an expert in sleep and stress resilience. He is the Founder and CEO of AIM7, a health and fitness app that unlocks the power of wearables by providing you with daily personalized recommendations to enhance your mind, body, and recovery. SUPPORT & CONNECT Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/erikkorem/ Twitter - https://twitter.com/ErikKorem LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/erik-korem-phd-19991734/ Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/erikkorem Website - https://www.erikkorem.com/ Newsletter - https://erikkoremhpcoach.activehosted.com/fSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

What are the skills you need to write successfully online today? In this week's episode, I caught up with Dickie Bush. Now, you may already know Dickie Bush because he has nearly 330,000 followers on Twitter. He's the co-founder of Typeshare, a fantastic online writing tool. And he also runs Ship 30 for 30, an online writing course I took a year ago. I was really excited to catch up with Dickie because he's an expert in writing online, specifically on Twitter. One of my key takeaways from talking to Dickie is how he looks at the creative process. In this episode, we discuss: how he transitioned from working as a trader at BlackRockchoosing your subject matterhow to supplement your subject with information and datahow he co-formed TypeshareDickie is getting ready to launch a new cohort of Ship 30 for 30. I have added the link below so you can sign up. It really is an excellent course. If you haven't written much online and perhaps lack confidence about publishing your work on Twitter or other platforms, or you want to see how an expert does it and learn about their tactics and strategies, then I would encourage you to take this particular course.Resources:Ship 30 for 30 CourseTypeshareDickie's websiteSupport the showIf you enjoyed the show please leave a review on Apple. And if you have any questions you can find me on Twitter @BryanJCollinsThanks for listening!

This podcast was originally a YouTube video, you can watch that video here: https://youtu.be/HR_6nbH4kkk If you enjoyed this episode, consider leaving a rating. It truly helps. Thank you again for listening. Dickie's Socials & Products: Twitter: https://twitter.com/dickiebush YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@dickiebush77 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dickiebush/ Free Ultimate Guide to get started writing online. https://startwritingonline.com Subscribe to our Digital Writing Compass newsletter: https://digitalwritingcompass.com Join the next cohort of Ship 30 for 30: http://ship30for30.com Dan's Socials & Products: Twitter: https://twitter.com/thedankoe Instagram: https://instagram.com/thedankoe YouTube: https://youtube.com/c/DanKoeTalks LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/thedankoe 14-day cohorts: https://sprints.digitaleconomics.school Writing & Content Course: https://2hourwriter.com Digital Economics Masterclass (and free business course): https://digitaleconomics.school Business Strategy Library & Private Community (Join For $5): https://modernmastery.co/podcast 10X Your Creative Output (free): https://7daystogeniusideas.com The Power Planner (free): https://shop.thedankoe.com/planner TweetHunter (where I write content): https://thedankoe.com/get/tweethunter ShortForm + yearly discount (how I read and generate ideas): https://shortform.com/dan

Bonus episode. I compiled some of my favorite insights from the 13 episodes in January (not the Q&A). So much gold gets shared in these episodes. I wanted a way to remember, distill, reflect, and resurface. Share, tweet, or text this episode. That helps it grow. If it grows, the guests will continue to be incredible. And if the guests continue to be incredible, I can keep doing the show. (0:00) Intro (2:02) Noah Huisman - 296 (3:45) Aaron Alexander - 297 (6:00) Justin Welsh - 298 (7:05) Morgan Housel - 299 (10:48) Grace Smith - 301 (13:17) Austin Rief - 302 (16:52) Dr. Anthony Gustin - 303 (19:33) Brian Peters - 304 (24:30) David Perell - 305 (28:57) George Heaton - 306 (33:44) Elliott Bisnow - 307 (36:30) Dickie Bush - 308 (39:23) Bryan Johnson - 309 My Links ✉️ Newsletter: https://dannymiranda.substack.com

Dickie Bush is a writer and entrepreneur. In this conversation, we spoke about finding a wife, writing a book, journaling, long-term thinking, why fitness YouTubers inspire him, his framework for creating online, and much more. (1:50) Intro (3:43) Getting Recognized (7:35) Dickie's Obsessions (13:24) How To Find A Wife (18:35) Relentless (21:50) Thoughtful (24:52) Remembering Names (28:05) Building Presence (31:21) Accountable (34:45) Writing A Book (38:32) Fitness YouTubers (45:33) Long Term (52:04) ShipYard (59:25) Taking First Step To Change Life (1:03:13) Dickie's Schedule For Creators (1:06:51) Boring Basics (1:07:52) Dickie's Health (1:11:12) Year In Review Retreat (1:18:31) Journaling (1:22:52) Maintenance vs. Growth (1:25:05) Dickie's Games (1:27:20) Dickie's Framework For Content (1:31:50) What Do Most Internet Builders Get Wrong? (1:37:15) Challenge Resources • Dickie on Episode 21: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=583IrJ1rdGU • Dickie on Episode 110: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXOix5Fm2lc • Dickie's Obsessions: https://twitter.com/dickiebush/status/1611346354588057601 • Dickie's End of Year Review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJ86uTvACp8 Dickie's Links Twitter: https://twitter.com/dickiebush Ship 30 for 30: https://www.ship30for30.com Typeshare: https://typeshare.co Website: https://www.dickiebush.com My Links ✉️ Newsletter: https://dannymiranda.substack.com

Today Greg is joined by the founders of Ship 30 for 30. In this episode, you'll hear how to stop worrying about being 'cringe' on Twitter and start developing a writing habit that pays off in your business and in your life. ►► Want email updates when new and exclusive episodes come out? It's free to subscribe at http://trwih.com LINKS FOR THIS EPISODE:https://startwritingonline.com/https://www.ship30for30.com/Dickie Bush: https://twitter.com/dickiebushNicolas Cole: https://twitter.com/Nicolascole77Greg Isenberg: https://twitter.com/gregisenbergProduction Team: https://www.bigoceanpodcasting.com/FIND US ON SOCIALTwitter: https://twitter.com/_trwihInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/_trwihTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@_trwihWeb: https://trwih.comSpotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/6aB0v6amo3a8hgTCjlTlvhApple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/where-it-happens/id1593424985SHOW NOTES:0:00 - Intro0:55 - How esports (and obsessive attention) helps in business11:30 - Playing the Twitter game right25:00 - How to start writing27:00 - Pseudonymity 34:50 - Case Study: Ryan Holiday41:45 - You're not special. The niche is special45:48 - How to avoid doing too much

Great writing is an extremely important skill set to have. Here's why. Dickie Bush joins Kipp and Kieran to dive deep into the writing rabbit hole. Press play to learn how writing can transform your business, curation vs. creation, frameworks to build an audience through writing, how to come up with interesting ideas, and if it'a better to have influence or reach? About Dickie Bush Dickie Bush is a digital writer and Captain of Ship 30 for 30—a cohort-based course that has helped over 5,600 start writing online. After playing football and graduating with a degree in math from Princeton in 2018, Dickie spent 4 years working on Wall Street as a hedge fund trader but, left that job in 2022 to build, write, and create on his own.  Check out Dickie's work! Ship 30 for 30 www.ship30for30.com  Twitter https://twitter.com/dickiebush  LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/dickiebush/  We're on Social Media! Follow us for everyday marketing wisdom straight to your feed YouTube: ​​https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGtXqPiNV8YC0GMUzY-EUFg  Twitter: https://twitter.com/matgpod  TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@matgpod  Thank you for tuning into Marketing Against The Grain! Don't forget to hit subscribe and follow us on Apple Podcasts (so you never miss an episode)! https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/marketing-against-the-grain/id1616700934   If you love this show, please leave us a 5-Star Review https://link.chtbl.com/h9_sjBKH and share your favorite episodes with friends. We really appreciate your support. Host Links: Kipp Bodnar, https://twitter.com/kippbodnar   Kieran Flanagan, https://twitter.com/searchbrat  ‘Marketing Against The Grain' is a HubSpot Original Podcast // Brought to you by The HubSpot Podcast Network // Produced by Darren Clarke.

Dickie Bush has almost 300k followers on Twitter and is one of the captains behind the popular online writing course, Ship 30 for 30.In this episode of Creators on Air, Dickie shares the secrets behind his Twitter growth, his current writing routine, and what makes Ship 30 for 30 a big success.Follow Dickie:

Most people know Dickie Bush as one of the most prolific creators on Twitter and increasingly on other platforms like YouTube and LinkedIn as well. He's built an impressive follower-base of 300k+ on Twitter and is also building a digital writing business called Ship30for30 that has already taught 6000 people to write online daily. But perhaps just as impressive are the systems that Dickie has built for his own health and fitness. In this episode, Dickie and Greg go deep on Dickie's routines for: - Sleep - Nutrition - Fitness Specifically... (02:37) - Dickie's experience as a professional Call of Duty player and his baseball career (08:19) - His decision to leave BlackRock to build Ship30for30 full-time (14:59) - His experience starting and growing a business over the last 2 years (22:41) - His journey to losing 100 lbs (26:28) - Dickie's formula for success: Volume, Intensity & Obsession (31:52) - Getting granular on Dickie's sleep routine (38:16) - Dickie's current morning routine (44:49) - How Dickie built a running habit in 2022 (49:46) - The Dickie Bush nutrition playbook (55:46) - The impact of quitting alcohol for one year (01:04:40) - Hustle culture, Twitter trolls & and killing your "once's" Dickie mentioned that he uses an electrolyte supplement from Re-lyte. You can find their website here: https://redmond.life/collections/re-lyte-caps Link to (very) raw transcript: https://share.descript.com/view/lKPDIvAOdQU -- Don't forget to follow Greg on Twitter @gregorycampion and subscribe to his bi-weekly newsletter: https://gregcampion.substack.com. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider rating and reviewing Intentional Wisdom wherever you get your podcasts. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/intentionalwisdom/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/intentionalwisdom/support

In this episode, Ish interviews Dickie Bush. Dickie shares about his upbringing, why he left investment banking, how he's made a career writing online, and some of his writing  tips for Twitter and Linkedin. Check out Dickies  weekly newsletter here The Digital Writing Compass. If you enjoyed this episode, drop a review and share it with your friends.More free tools & resources found here.Follow Ish VerduzcoFollow Caleb Hodgson

My next guest is Danny Miranda. He is a lover of life. He is a podcaster and tweeter whose mission is to make the world happier, healthier, and wiser. His previous guest appearances include Gary Vaynerchuk, Iman Gadzhi, Sahil Bloom, Tom Bilyeu, Chris Williamson, Kamal Ravikant, Miami Mayor Francis Suarez, Miss Excel Kat Norton, Ariel Helwani, Anthony Pompliano, James Altucher, Sam Parr, Greg McKeown, Kevin Kelly, Mike Maples, Sharon Salzberg, Dickie Bush, George Heaton, Rob Lipsett, Colin and Samir, Shaan Puri, Gay Hendricks, and many more incredible humans.We talked about:(03:41) Why meditation made him a better listener?(16:12) Why Tim Ferriss & Joe Rogan are the top podcasters?(17:10) The progress between Joe Rogan 100 to Joe Rogan 1000 as a podcaster(18:44) What makes Danny's guests bare their souls to him?(21:50) How Danny improves himself as an interviewer?(24:21) The overlooked pitfall of being too critical to yourself(31:55) The power of silence during interviews(38:34) The power of the juxtaposition(42:33) The ideal coach archetype(43:35) The ideal podcast experience(51:53) The power of questions to determine the quality of your life(52:42) Why humans cannot refuse questions(58:32) How to talk to people who have 10x the audience size than you(66:50) The mindset of journaling and documenting now instead of later(68:57) The importance of giving love to those you believe in(74:44) CK's acknowledgment practice(82:40) The powerful question to get deep without the small talks(85:55) How to calibrate your vocabulary level for the widest reach?(89:48) How CK maintains peace and calmness To activate, express, and amplify your purpose, go to: https://bit.ly/3lVRhhN

What is the single most powerful skill you can develop? According to Dickie Bush, it's learning quickly. Join us on this episode of Business Brain as we dive into Mr. Bush's framework for learning quickly by seeing everything as a game, starting to play immediately, and then iterating as you […] The post Learning Quickly, Gamification, Iteration, and Mastery – Business Brain 403 appeared first on Business Brain - The Entrepreneurs' Podcast.

I'm going, to be honest with you: I'm squarely anti-hustle culture. I think it's unnecessary and puts too much pressure on people to make “Gary Vee money.” So when I saw Dickie Bush's Ship 30 project, I thought we had more of that narrative. Well let me tell you, I could not have been more wrong. Dickie's approach to writing and his frameworks can help anyone become a better writer, and Ship 30 helps brand new creators go through the roller coaster that is content creation faster, and with a better support system. There are TONS of gems in this episode, so you won't want to miss it. Plus, in Build Something More, Dickie and I talk about competitive gaming. Top Takeaways: Twitter is a “home run-based” platform that allows you to go viral with the right stuff. Generally, that's content Dickie called “Reach” content; these are tweets or threads that everyone can relate to.Dickie says creating content isn't coming up with 1000 different ideas. It's coming up with 1000 different ways to use the same idea across different platforms, so it resonates with different people.If you're struggling to come up with content, do the 2-year review: look at everything you learned over the last 2 years, and then write content for you, two years ago. Show Notes: Dickie Bush 1 Dickie Bush 2Dickie on TwitterDickie on LinkedinOtter.aiTypeshareJoin the Creator CrewSponsored by: Nexcess | LearnDash

You know when you read something that hits you so hard, it stops you in your tracks?Or, you feel as if someone is on the same path, but just a few steps ahead?Yup, that is resonance, and if a seed was previously planted - it likely is reappearing in your reality. Welcome to my crossroad of resistance in starting a NEW WRITE OF PASSAGE in the evolution of Web 3.0. Meet Dickie Bush. Yup - you can giggle under your breath. I did

Today's guest is one of the biggest writers on the internet. He's written over 5,000 articles online, ghost-written for 300+ business leaders and was previously the most-read writer on the social platform Quora, which has 200 million users. Nicolas Cole, or Cole to his friends, has amassed hundreds of millions of views of his writing, written over a dozen books, and is co-author of the Category Pirates newsletter with former podcast guest Christopher Lochhead and Eddie Yoon.As you'll hear us discuss with his partner Dickie Bush, Cole's also the co-founder of Ship 30 for 30, a cohort-based course designed to help anyone develop a digital writing habit.We had a great conversation about a variety of topics, including:- Working out what to write- Getting over the fear of writing online- How to generate a steady flow of ideas- How to choose which platform to write on- Niching down and scaling using the internet- The difference between analogue & digital writing- The importance of structure & systems to good writing- Why work/life balance is a myth & what's the alternativeIf you're interested in learning more about Ship 30 For 30, I've put a link below, which will give you a discount on the next cohort. You can also find the link in today's Future Work/Life newsletter.Finally, if you enjoy listening, make sure to subscribe to hear more conversations about writing and sharing ideas with people like Justin Welsh and Steven Kotler over the next few weeks.LINKS:Cole's Twitter profileCole's LinkedIn profileShip 30 for 30Category Pirates newsletterThe Endless Idea GeneratorOllie's LinkedIn profileFuture Work/Life newsletterFuture Work/Life website See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Pod description: So look, we surveyed the magic eight ball along with thousands of listeners on who you wanted to see as a guest on Builders Build…and the overwhelming response was former president Barack Obama. Sadly our schedules didnt align with Oren's daily paddle boarding session, James' frequent jet setting to Miami, and Colin's relentless mission to win Portlands coveted father of the year 2022 award… So? We went with the second most requested, the king of writing online himself, Dickie Bush. A former BlackRock trader turned digital builder, Dickie has helped over 4,000 people start writing online with his incredibly well respected program, ​​Ship 30 for 30. In addition, he's a founder of TypeShare, an amazing tool to help you write online. In this pod we cover: How to get started writing online The transition from 9-5 to the wonderful world of being self employed Building an audience on twitter A journey of launching a saas And much more If you want more alpha then we can fit in this description? Make sure to check out https://builders.build and subscribe while you can. Check out Dickie Bush and his projects at: https://twitter.com/dickiebush https://www.ship30for30.com/ https://typeshare.co

Inspirational stories plus practical takeaways from the entrepreneurship world.Today's guest is Dickie Bush who you might know from Twitter where he has amassed 200k followers in just over 2 years. He started writing online as he realized his corporate career with Blackrock isn't where he wanted his life to go. After 9 months of struggle, he finally had a breakthrough, and ever since he's been helping others through Ship30for30 with Nicolas Cole. He's also released TypeShare, a SaaS product to make it easier for online bloggers to publish on multiple platforms. He only went full-time 6 weeks ago so we've caught him at a turning point in his already successful career. We hope enjoy the episode and don't forget to share it with others. You can learn more at http//www.entrepreneurshandbook.co.Find out more about Dickie: https://www.dickiebush.com/Follow him on Twitter: https://twitter.com/dickiebushFollow him on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dickiebush/Start Writing Online: https://startwritingonline.com/Ship30for30: https://www.ship30for30.com/TypeShare: https://typeshare.co/

See the visuals: https://twitter.com/search?q=Endless%20Idea%20Generator&src=typed_queryListen to the Digital Writing podcast; https://podcasts.apple.com/ru/podcast/how-to-generate-100-content-ideas-write-viral-twitter/id1600176185?i=1000552947481 (10mins in)

The Adweek Copywriting Handbook - Joseph Sugarman https://amzn.to/3NZbYqV Thread summary (Twitter): https://twitter.com/OscarLagrosen/status/1511051843954167814?s=20&t=AwqbW4bSfRuV6zYSbiYm5A Never Split The Difference - Chris Voss https://amzn.to/3rdYI8e Thread summary (Twitter): https://twitter.com/OscarLagrosen/status/1512831956974804995?s=20&t=We5QM4DP4mcU4gNAghxpVQ Skin In The Game - Nassim Taleb https://amzn.to/35ZZX3o Using Deliberate Cold Exposure for Health and Performance - Andrew Huberman https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pq6WHJzOkno Dickie Bush Returns! [Flywheel Effects] - Creative Elements https://open.spotify.com/episode/7GB0lSl0vZOrPJSXl2QRe0?si=cd6bae8fb0ba4440 Original article: https://thetotalliving.com/2022/04/5-reading-listening-tips-for-week-14-2022-featuring-joseph-sugarman-chris-voss-nassim-taleb-andrew-huberman-dickie-bush/ My name is Oscar Lagrosen and am the founder and life-enjoyer of The Total Living. I publish a new podcast episode every single day about the art and lifestyle of total living. Tips, frameworks, and big ideas to be your ideal life, both right now and in the future.

Dickie Bush is the creator of Ship 30 for 30, a cohort-based course and community of people developing a writing habit in 30 days. He is passionate about providing writers and creators with the tools, resources, processes, and mindsets required to find points of leverage and achieve exponential growth—both personally and professionally. Since our first interview, Dickie has grown his Twitter following from 10,000 to more than 175,000 at the time of publishing. He's also now served 4,000 students through Ship 30 for 30. In this episode, we talk about Dickie's wild year of growth, the evolution of the Ship 30 for 30 student experience, Dickie's underrated growth technique, and why adding his new software product Typeshare is adding to their business Flywheel. Join Ship 30 for 30 Follow Dickie Bush on Twitter Join #Tweet100 Join the Creative Companion Club

Dickie Bush is a macro investor and the creator of Ship 30 for 30, a community of writers developing a writing habit in 30 days. He is passionate about providing writers and creators with the tools, resources, processes, and mindsets required to find points of leverage and achieve exponential growth—both personally and professionally. In this episode we talk about Dickie's humble newsletter beginnings, his experimentation with Twitter, the growth of Ship 30 for 30, and why listening to feedback loops has helped him turn the flywheel of growth so quickly. Join Ship 30 for 30 Follow Dickie Bush on Twitter Join #Tweet100 Join the Creative Companion Club

Dickie Bush joins Josh to talk about the intersection of creativity and productivity, compounding your knowledge and credibility, how writing online changed his life, and how he teaches people how to start writing online with his online course Ship 30 for 30. For full show notes and links discussed in the episode, go to https://mindmeld.fm About Dickie Bush Dickie Bush is the founder of Ship 30 for 30, a community and online course that teaches the fundamentals of writing on the internet. But unlike other writing courses, you put your learnings into practice by writing and publishing online every day for 30 days.The idea is to adopt the mindset of a digital writer and consistently publish concise ideas for 30 days straight. Connect with Dickie Twitter: http://twitter.com/dickiebush Ship 30 for 30: ship30for30.com https://www.dickiebush.com/ ******************** If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts https://apple.co/2Y86xww It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. ******************** Subscribe to Mind Meld on your favourite podcast app: https://mindmeld.fm Stalk Josh on the Internet: Twitter: (https://twitter.com/joshgonsalves_) Instagram: (https://instagram.com/joshgonsalves_) Facebook: (https://facebook.com/gonsalvesmedia) LinkedIn: (https://linkedin.com/in/joshgonsalves94) YouTube: (https://youtube.com/joshgonsalves) Thanks for coming this far! if you're reading this, it is no accident. The universe brought you to this corner of the internet for a reason, and you're on the right track. I already know that you're an amazing person and I can't wait to connect with you! — Josh

As the saying goes, the days are long, but the years are short. One of the ways to combat years from flying by is slowing down and reflecting. In this episode, we look back on 2021 to highlight moments, memories, and milestones. We also take some time to discuss strategies for how you can do more of what you enjoy. This life is short and it's easy to get caught in the rat race. So, we encourage you to slow down and take an inventory on what you're truly passionate about. As we move into this year, lets look for ways to do more of the things that excite us. Remember, if you have any questions or comments, or topic ideas you'd like to hear discussed in future episodes, please feel free to reach out to us at kinesiologycorner@gmail.com (00:00:00) - Intro (00:01:51) - Shout Out (00:06:39) - Big moments, memories, and milestones from 2021 (00:23:50) - Relationship highlights (00:32:00) - How to do more of the things you enjoy? (00:37:23) - How to apply the 80/20 rule to life (00:51:23) - How to set some rules (00:55:55) - Best of… (01:05:16) - Bottlenecks to continued growth and what's next? Tim Ferriss: https://tim.blog/2021/12/27/past-year-review/ Dickie Bush: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1474017374697316352.html Extreme Energy by MusicToday80: https://soundcloud.com/musictoday80/r... Attribution 3.0 Unported (CC BY 3.0) https://creativecommons.org/licenses/... Music provided by Free Vibes: https://goo.gl/NkGhTg

Dickie Bush is an online writer and creator of Ship30For30 - a cohort-based writing course that has taken the Twitter community by storm. In this episode of the Modern Mastery podcast Dan and Dickie discuss how holistic health and hybrid athleticism affect creative work, why writing is a necessity for everyone, and the definition and steps to building digital leverage. Get In Touch With Dickie Dickie's Twitter: https://twitter.com/dickiebush Dickie's Guide: https://startwritingonline.com/ Ship30For30: https://www.ship30for30.com/ Get Your First Month Inside MMHQ For $5 Join The Community: https://join.modernmastery.co/podcast Guaranteed Business & Personal Success - New Cohorts Every Quarter The Mastery Program: https://join.modernmastery.co/program Weekly Newsletter The Mastery Letter (free): https://join.modernmastery.co/the-mastery-letter Map Out Your Vision, Deconstruct It, And Execute Relentlessly The Power Planner (free): https://shop.thedankoe.com/planner Free Online Business Beginners Training Solopreneur Foundations (free): https://join.modernmastery.co/free-training The Blog & Shop https://modernmastery.co Get In Touch With Me Twitter: https://twitter.com/thedankoe Instagram: https://instagram.com/thedankoe YouTube: https://youtube.com/c/DanKoeTalks If you enjoyed the show, subscribe and rate to help it grow further.

Reflection is deliberate and structured thinking about choices. It is an integral step to improving our practice. The truth is that many of us are so busy trying to move forward with our lives that we rarely take a moment to slow down and be at one with our thoughts. Plus, we often don't recognize the importance of self-reflection and the impact it can have on our lives. What if we made self-reflection part of our everyday routine instead of a yearly thing? In my opinion, self-reflection is one of the best ways that you can shift your mindset, increase positivity in your life, and grow. Check out Dickie Bush's "21 Questions to Reflect on": https://twitter.com/dickiebush/status/1474747343211835393?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

Dickie Bush is a portfolio manager, digital writer, and captain of Ship 30 for 30. On this episode, he talks about how he grew his Twitter account to over 100K followers, how he writes viral threads, and how he creates attention-grabbing headlines. 

If you've spent any time on Twitter, chances are you've seen some of George Mack's, Dickie Bush, and Nicolas Cole's Twitter threads.And in this webinar, we are going to give you a crash course in how to write them effectively.Expect to learn: The three types of threads that work How to craft an engaging lead-in tweet How to write with rhythm and cadence How to stand out from the rest of the world's thread writers How to use time-tested copywriting frameworks to keep reader's attention How to capture emails with a CTA And much more!

Dickie committed himself to publish one newsletter every week for a year. After dozens of published editions, he barely had any subscribers. It was time for him to pivot. That's when he started writing on Twitter and everything changed. In this episode, you'll learn about the power of consistency and writing daily. You'll also hear insights on how to collect ideas and churn out more content because your first tweet might be shit but your 100th tweet will be infinitely better.

Today we chat with Dickie Bush who co-founded the popular Ship 30 For 30 online course. He's helped over 2,500 become better writers, was a D1 athlete at Princeton and currently works full-time at one of the largest asset management firms in the world.  You can find him on twitter at https://twitter.com/dickiebush We chat about  - How he learned to become an effective writer so quickly - Building well developed product - Using leverage and efficiency to get things done

Andrew Warner has been part of the internet startup scene since 1997. Andrew and his brother built a $30 million per year online business, which they later sold. After taking an extended vacation and doing some traveling, Andrew started Mixergy. Mixergy helps ambitious upstarts learn from some of the most successful people in business.Andrew and I talk about his new book, Stop Asking Questions. It's a great read on leading dynamic interviews, and learning anything from anyone. We also talk about longevity and burnout as an entrepreneur. Andrew gives me feedback about my interviewing style, the direction I should take the podcast, and much more.In this episode, you'll learn: Why you need to understand and communicate your mission How to get your guest excited about being interviewed What to do instead of asking questions How to hook your audience and keep them engaged Links & Resources ConvertKit Gregg Spiridellis JibJab Ali Abdaal The Web App Challenge: From Zero to $5,000/month In 6 Months Groove Zendesk Help Scout Jordan Harbinger Noah Kagan Bob Hiler Seth Godin Morning Brew Alex Lieberman Keap (formerly Infusionsoft) Notion Sahil Bloom Ryan Holiday Brent Underwood Ghost Town Living Trust Me, I'm Lying: Confessions of a Media Manipulator Damn Gravity Paul Graham Y Combinator Nathan Barry: Authority Ira Glass NPR This American Life Barbara Walters Richard Nixon interview Oprah interview with Lance Armstrong Matt Mullenweg Chris Pearson Conspiracy: Peter Thiel, Hulk Hogan, Gawker, and the Anatomy of Intrigue Peter Thiel Gawker Nick Denton The Wall Street Journal Rohit Sharma SanDisk Jason Calacanis Dickie Bush Sean McCabe Daily Content Machine Jordan Peterson Tribes Warren Buffet Sam Walton Ted Turner GothamChess LinkedIn Learning (formerly Lynda.com) Inc.com: Selling Your Company When You're Running on Fumes Chess.com Mark Cuban James Altucher Rod Drury Andrew Warner's Links Andrew Warner Stop Asking Questions Mixergy Episode Transcript[00:00:00] Andrew:The top 10 interviews of all time are news-based interviews. We, as podcasters, keep thinking, “How do I get enough in the can, so if I die tomorrow, there's enough interviews to last for a month, so I can be consistent, and the audience loves me.”That's great, but I think we should also be open to what's going on in the world today. Let's go talk to that person today. If there's an artist who's suddenly done something, we should go ask to do an interview with them.[00:00:32] Nathan:In this episode, I talk to my friend, Andrew Warner, who I've known for a long time. He actually played a really crucial role in the ConvertKit story in the early days, and provided some great encouragement along the way to help me continue the company, and get through some tough spots.We actually don't get into that in this episode, but it takes an interesting turn because we just dive right in.Andrew's got a book on interviewing. He runs Mixergy. He's been, running Mixergy for a long time. We talk about longevity and burnout, and a bunch of other things. He dives in and challenges me, and gives me feedback on my interviewing style. Where I should take the Podcast, and a bunch of other stuff. It's more of a casual conversation than the back-and-forth interview of how he grew his business. But I think you'll like it. It's a lot of what I'm going for on the show.So anyway, enjoy the episode.Andrew, welcome to the show.[00:01:25] Andrew:Thanks for having me on.[00:01:26] Nathan:There's all kinds of things we can talk about today, but I want to start with the new book that you got coming out.This is actually slightly intimidating; I am interviewing someone who has a book coming out about how to be good at interviewing. Where do we even go from here? You were saying that you have thoughts?[00:01:47] Andrew:I have feedback for you. I have a thoughts on your program.[00:01:51] Nathan:I'm now even more nervous.[00:01:52] Andrew:I've been listening, and I've been following, and I've been looking for questioning styles. Is there feedback I could give him? I mean, I've wrote a whole book on it. I should have tons of ideas on that.I don't. Here's the thing that stood out for me watching you. There's an ease and a comfort with these guests, but I'm trying to figure out what you're trying to do with the Podcast. What is connecting them? Are you trying to bring me, the listener, in and teach me how to become a better creator who's going to grow an audience and make a career out of it? Or are you trying to learn for yourself what to do?How to become closer to what Ali Abdaal doing, for example, or Sahil Bloom? Are you trying to do what they did, and grow your audience? Or is it a combination of the two?I think the lack of that focus makes me feel a little untethered, and I know that being untethered and going raw, and letting it go anywhere is fine, but I think it would be helpful if you gave me a mission.What's the mission that Nathan Barry's on with the Podcast. Why is he doing these interviews?[00:02:56] Nathan:Oh, that's interesting. Because it's probably different: my mission, versus the audience members' mission.[00:03:05] Andrew:I think you should have a boat together and, but go ahead.[00:03:08] Nathan:I was going to say mine is to meet interesting people. Like that's the thing I found that, podcasts are the pressure from two sides, one as a creator, as an individual online, like I'm not going to set aside the time to be like, you know what, I'm going to meet one interesting person a week and we're just going to have a conversation riff on something like that.Doesn't happen the times that, you know, the years that I didn't do this show, I didn't set aside like deliberate time to do that. And then the other thing is if I were to set aside that time and send out that email, I think a lot of people would be like, I kind of had to have a busy week. I don't know that I've, you know, like yeah, sure.Nathan, whoever you are. I did a Google search. You seem moderately interesting. I'm not sure that I want to get on that.Like a, get to know[00:03:58] Andrew:They wouldn't and it would be awkward. And you're right. The Podcast gives you an excuse. I think you should go higher level with it though. I think you should go deep to the point where you feel vulnerable. I think what you should do is say something like this, isn't it. You have to go into your own into your own mission and say, this is what it is.And just, so let me set the context for why this matters. I think it helps the audience know, but it also helps you get better guests to give better of themselves. I talk in the book about how I was interviewing Greg spirit, Dallas, the guy who created jib, jab, you know, those old viral video, it was a fire video factory that also created apps that allowed you to turn your yourself into like a viral meme that you could then send to your friends.Anyway, he didn't know me. He was incredibly successful. He was, I think, person of the year, a company of the year named by time. He was on the tonight show because he created these videos that had gone viral. And yes. He said yes, because a friend of a friend invited him, but I could see that he was just kind of slouching.He was wearing a baseball cap. It wasn't a good position. And then he said, why are we doing this? And I said, I want to do a story. That's so important. That tells the story of how you built your business. Yes. For my audience. So they see how new businesses are being built online, but let's make it so clear about what you did, that your great grandkids can listen to this.And then they will know how to great grandfather do this and put us in this situation. And that's what I wanted. I wanted for him to create that. And he told me that afterwards, if he had known that that was a mission, he wouldn't have put his hat on. He said that after that, he started thinking about the business in a more in depth way, visualizing his great grandchild.And then later on, he asked me for that recording so that he could have it in his family collection. So the reason I say that is I want us to have a mission. That's that important that yes. You could get somebody to sit in front of the camera because you're telling me you're doing a podcast, frankly.Right. You're with ConvertKit they're going to say yes, but how do you bring the best out of them? And that's it. And so that's why I'm doing this. And so one suggestion for you is to say something like.I'm Nathan, I've been a creator my whole life, but I'm starting from scratch right now with YouTube.I've got 435 people watching YouTube. It's not terrible, but it's clearly not where I want to end up. And so what I've decided to do is instead of saying, I've created the book authority, I wrote it. I'm the one who created software that all these creators are using a ConvertKit. Instead of, instead of allowing myself to have the comfort of all my past successes, I'm going to have the discomfort of saying, I don't know what it's like.And so I'm going to bring on all these people who, because maybe I've got credibility from ConvertKit are going to do interviews with me. And they're going to teach me like Alia doll and others are going to teach me how they became better creators, better business people. I'm going to use it to inform my, my, growth on YouTube.And by the way, You'll all get to follow along. And if you want to follow along and build along with me, this is going to come from an earnest place. Now I've obviously gone. Long-winded cause I'm kind of riffing here, but that's a mission. And now we're watching as you go from four to 500, now we care about your growth.Now there's someone giving you feedback and more importantly, there's someone who then can go back years later and see the breadcrumbs. Even if the whole thing fails and say, you know what?Nathan made it in virtual reality videos. And he's amazing. But look at what he did when YouTube was there. He clearly didn't do it, but he aspired right. I could aspire to, if I don't do it, I'll do it in the next level. That's that's what I'm going for with it. I talk too much sometimes and give people too much, too much feedback. How does that sit with you?[00:07:14] Nathan:I like the idea. I particularly love anytime a creator's going on a journey and inviting people along for it, right. When you're sitting there and giving advice or whatever else, it's just not that compelling to follow it unless there's a destination in mind. So I did that with ConvertKit in the early days of, I said, like I called it the web app challenge said, I'm trying to grow it from zero to 5,000 a month in recurring revenue.Within six months, I'm going to like live blog, the whole thing. people love that another example would be also in the SAS space, but, the company grew, they did a customer support software and they, I think. They were going from 25,000 a month to 500,000 a month was their goal. and they even have like, in their opt-in form, as they blogged and shared all the lessons, it had like a progress bar.You'd see, like MRR was at 40,000,[00:08:08] Andrew:Every time you read a blog post, you see the MRR and the reason that you don't remember what the number was is I believe that they changed it, you know, as they achieve the goal, they, they changed it to show the next goal on their list. And yeah, and you've got to follow along now. Why do I care? The groove, HQ or groove is, is growing a competitor to Zendesk and help scout.But now that I'm following along, I'm kind of invested now that I see how they're writing about their progress. I really do care. And by the way, what is this groove and why is it better than help scout and the others? Yeah. I agree with you. I think that makes a lot of sense. I think in conversations also, it makes a lot of sense.I think a lot of people will come to me and say, Andrew, can I just ask you for some feedback? I'm a student. Can I ask you for support? It's helpful for them to ask, but if they could ground me in the purpose, if you could say to somebody I'm coming to you with these questions, because this is where I'm trying to go, it changes the way that they react.It makes them also feel more on onboard with the mission. I have a sense that there is one, I'm just saying nail it, you know, who does it really good? who does a great job with it is a Jordan harbinger. He starts out his each episode is almost if you're a fan of his, it's almost like enough already. I get that.You're going to do an opt-in in the beginning of the Podcast. I get that. What you're trying to do is show us how to whatever network now and become better people. But it's fine. I'd much rather people say, I know too much about what this mission is. Then I don't.[00:09:26] Nathan:Do you who's afraid anyone else tuning in? What, what is Jordan's mission? What would he say is the mission that[00:09:32] Andrew:It's about, see, that's the other thing I can't actually, even though I've heard it a billion times, he's adjusted it. It's about, self-improvement making me a better person better, man. And so the earnestness of that makes me accept when he brings somebody on who's a little bit too academic who's, Jordan's interested in it or a little bit too practical to the point where it feels like I'm just getting too many tips on how to network and I don't need it, but I've got his sensibility.He's trying to make me a better person. And so I think with interviews, if you, if you give people the, the mission, they'll forgive more, they'll accommodate the largest and it does allow you to have a broader, a broader set of topics.[00:10:14] Nathan:Yeah. I'm thinking about the mission side of it. Like all of that resonates. and I love when an interview is questions are Like are the questions that they specifically want to know? It's not like I went through my list and this seems like a good question to ask instead. It's like, no, no, no, Andrew specifically, I want to know what should I do about, this?And I'll even call that out in a show and be like, look, I don't even care if there's an audience right now. Like this is my list, you know?[00:10:41] Andrew:Yes.[00:10:41] Nathan:But the, like if we dive into the mission, the one that you outlined doesn't quite resonate. And I think the reason. I think about, creators who have already made it in some way.And it starts to lose that earnestness. Like, honestly, I'm not that interested in, in growing a YouTube[00:11:00] Andrew:I don't think that that's I don't think that that's it for you. It's true. That's a little bit too. I don't know. It's it's a little, it's a little too early in the career. There is something there. I don't know what it is and it can't be enough. It can't be enough to say I need to meet interesting people because that's very youth centric and I'm not on a mission to watch you, unless you're really going to go for like the super right.And we're constantly aspiring, inspiring. the other thing it could be as you're running a company, you're trying to understand what's going on. No Kagan did that really well. I actually have the reason that I know this stuff is in order to write the book. I said, I have all my transcripts. I can study all the ways that I've questioned, but I also want to see what other people have done.And so Noah Kagan did this interview with an NPR producer. I had that transcribed to understand what he did and what he learned. One of the things that he did in that, that made that such a compelling interview is. He was a podcaster who wanted to improve his podcasting. And he, I think he even paid the producer to do an interview with him on his podcast so that he could learn from him.Right. And in the process, he's asking serious questions that he's really wondering. He's trying to figure out how to make a show more interesting for himself. Now. Clearly someone like me, who wants to make my Podcast more interesting. I'm like mentally scribbling notes as I'm running, listening to the podcasting.Oh yeah. The rule of three, like what are the three things you're going to show me?Well, yeah, at the end he did summarize it and he did edit. I don't like the edits at all because the edits take away some of the rawness of it and the discomfort which I personally enjoy, but I see now how he's editing it out.And it's, it's interesting to watch that progress.[00:12:32] Nathan:Yeah, I'm thinking through. The different angles that I could take with this. cause I like it and I feel like there's a, a thread that's not quite there. And I felt that on the show. Right. Cause people ask, oh, why are you having this guest on versus that guest? and it is that like, I, I find them interesting.There's also another angle of like probably half the guests maybe are on ConvertKit already. And so I want to highlight that. And then the other half of the guests aren't and I want them on ConvertKit and so that's an, you know, an incredibly easy, I can send you a cold email and be like, Andrew switched to ConvertKit.Right. Or I could be like, Hey, you know, have you on the show, we could talk. and we've gotten great people like in the music space and other areas from just having them on the show and then[00:13:18] Andrew:Can I give you, by the way, I know it's a sidetrack and I give you a great story of someone who did that. Okay. it's not someone that, you know, it's a guy who for years had helped me out. His name is Bob Highler every week he would get on a call with me and give me advice on how to improve the business.And then at one point he said, you know what? I need new clients. I want to start going after people who are, I want to start going after lawyers, helping them with their online ads, because lawyers aren't, aren't doing well enough.He started doing all these marketing campaigns because he's a marketer. And so one of the things he did was he got these cards printed up.He said, they look just like wedding invitations, beautiful. He, he mailed them out to lawyers. He got one, two responses. Like nobody would pay attention to a stranger, even if they were earnest and sending those out. And he goes, you know, and then he gets on a call. He doesn't even know what to say to people.If he just cold calling goes, I'm going to try to do that. And Andrew, I'm going to do an interview show for lawyers. He picked bankruptcy lawyers. He started asking them for interviews. They were all flattered because they also want another good Google hit. Right. And so they said yes to him and he asked them questions.Then I started learning the language. I forget all the different terms that he learned about how, about how they operate. But he said, inevitably at the end, they'll go after it was done. And say, by the way, what are you. And then he'd have a chance to tell them. And because he's built up this rapport and they trust him, they were much more likely to sign them.He signed up his customers, just like that, just like that. It's a, I think it's an, it's an unexplored way of doing it, of, of growing a business, taking an interest in someone, shining a light on them, helping them get that Google hit and helping them tell their story. And then by the way, will you pay attention to the fact that I've got a thing that if you like me, you might like also,[00:14:50] Nathan:So a few years ago, I was in New York and Seth Goden had come out to speak at our conference and he'd ever said, Hey, if you're in New York and want to make the pilgrimage up to Hastings on Hudson, you know, of outside the city, like come up and visit. And so I did that and it's so funny, cause it is like this pilgrimage to you, you like take the train up along the river. You know, I don't know what it is an hour and a half outside of the city. and I was asking Seth advice at his office, about like how to reach more authors. I think that was the question I asked him specifically and he just, he was like, well, what do authors want? And I was like, ah, I, some more books I guess.And he's like, yeah know. And so like we went through a series of questions, but he's basically what he came to was, find a way to get them attention so that they can grow their audience to sell more books. And he was suggesting a podcast is the way to do that. What's interesting is that's the side, like that's the other half of it, right.I want to meet interesting people. I want to, Like get more of those people that I find really interesting on ConvertKit pushed the limits of like, our customer base in, in those areas. And then the third thing is I want to do it in a way that's high leverage in my time. Write of, I want to do it.That creates something, for people watching and listening along so they can follow the journey. But I still don't see,I would say two thirds of that is about me, right?[00:16:18] Andrew:It's not only that, but all these things are byproducts more than they are the clear goal. You're going to get that. No matter what, if you just talk all day about what? No, not talk all day. If you do, what was it? I'm the founder of morning brew does nothing, but like a 15 minute, if that sometimes five minutes.[00:16:37] Nathan:Alex Lieberman.[00:16:38] Andrew:Yeah, just what, what goes on in his life now it's changed over the years or so that he's done it, but it's just, here's what we were thinking about today. Here's how I'm deciding to hire somebody BA done. He's just doing that. That's enough to get attention enough to also broaden his audience enough to bring us in and then so on.So I think if you just did nothing, but get on camera and talk for a bit, you'll get that. But I think a higher leverage thing is to tap into that personal mission and let all the others come through along the way and all the other benefits, meaning that you will get to meet people and change the way you think you will get to get people to switch to convert kit.And so on, by the way, that's such a, like an impressive thing for you to admit, to say, I want to have these guests on because I want to assign them up. I think a lot of people would have those ulterior motives and[00:17:23] Nathan:Oh, no, you got to just talk about, I mean, that's something you and I, for as long as we've known each other have been very, very transparent in both of our separate businesses and our conversations and it's just, everyone wants that. Right? Cause they're like, I think I know why Nathan is doing this, but he wants.And that would be weird, but if we go to the mission side of it, there's mission of like this, I'm going to improve the world side of mission, which definitely exists that can protect you. And I got my little plaque behind me. It says we exist to help creators are living. And so we can take that angle of it, thinking of like the, the goal journey side of things, since we're just riffing on ideas.One way that might be interesting is to make like a top 100 list of the top 100 creators we want on ConvertKit. And the whole podcast is about interviewing those people and reaching them. And, and so it could be like, this is what I'm trying to accomplish. And you're going to learn a whole bunch along the way as a listener, but you, you know, we check in on that.And then another angle that we could take that would be different is the, like we're going together. We're going to help the creator make the best version of their business. And so you make it more of a.We're both peers diving in on your business, riffing on it, you know, how would we improve it? that kind of thing.[00:18:43] Andrew:I think helping creators create a business, seems like something others have done, but not quite your approach, your style, the way that you will go and carve something is this is the thing that's over your head that says create. Is that something you carved in your wood shop? Then I saw on Instagram.Yeah, right. The sensibility of I've got to create it my way. Instead of that's a pain in the ass, I got a business to run who like, right. You're not going to see, for example, infusion soft, go, we need a plaque. Let's go to the wood shop. No, you're not. It's just not their sensibility. Right. Coming from a sensibility of someone who cares about the details, who every button matters in the software, everything behind your shoulder matters to you for yourself, even the stuff I imagine.If you look forward would have a meaning there, it wouldn't be random chaos. Is it random chaos in front of, on the[00:19:32] Nathan:The desk is random chaos, but there's a sign that says the future belongs to creators up there. And[00:19:38] Andrew:Okay. I think I might've even seen that online somewhere. So I think that coming, coming from the business point of view, With a sense of creator's taste, I think is something that would appeal to a lot of people. For whom seeing, for example, my take on business would be completely abhorring. All I care about is where the numbers are and what it's like.Right. Well, even allium doll's take on, it would not be, would not be right, because he's much more about every movement needs to matter. He can't just have a checkbox in notion it Ellis has to fire off five different other things that notion because otherwise you're wasting time. Why type five things when you could type one, right.It's a different sensibility. And I think you've always done really well drawing in that audience. I remember talking to a competitor of yours who started around the same time, also done really well about why you were, you were really growing tremendously faster. and they said he nailed it. He nailed who his audience is.It's the bloggers. It's these early creators who, who didn't have. Who didn't have anyone speaking for them. And you did that. And I think maybe that's an approach to saying, look, we are creators. And the business of creation is, or the business of being a creator is evolving and we want to learn about every part of it.And then it's interesting to hear how somebody growing their audience in an interesting way. How is somebody thinking about writing? I love that you asked Sahil bloom about how long it took him to write. I know he talks about it a bunch, but it's, it's interesting to hear him go with you about how it is like a five hour, seven hour writing job for him, right.To write fricking tweets. He's writing tweets, right? You've got people just firing off the tweet. He's spending five, seven hours on it. And, and he's also not a guy who's just like, right. It would be something if he was still in school playing baseball, and this is his intellectual, whatever. No, he's now running in investments.He's making decisions. He's helping promote his, his portfolio companies and he's spending five hours writing and he's doing it like one a week instead of one an hour. Right. It's all very interesting. And that approach, I think, ties completely well with ConvertKit.[00:21:41] Nathan:Okay. So where does that take us on like the mission or the hook for the show? Cause we're.[00:21:48] Andrew:Okay. Here's what I would do. I would, I would just keep riffing go. My name is Nathan Barry. You probably know me from convert kit. I'm doing this podcast because I like to meet interesting people. And here's the thing I'm trying to do or I'm I I'm doing it because I'm compelled to talk to these people who I admire.And I also want to learn from them about how they create and just riff on it. Like every week, even have every interview have a different one, until you feel like, oh, that's the one that feels just right. But if we just here, I want to have this person on, because I'm trying to learn this thing. I want to have this on because secretly I'm trying to see if I can get him to be at, see if I can get Ryan holiday to actually be on convert kit.Right. Boom. Now, now we're kind of following along as you're figuring it out. And that's also[00:22:29] Nathan:Yeah.[00:22:29] Andrew:The way, is Ryan holiday going to be on here or what?[00:22:31] Nathan:On the show,[00:22:33] Andrew:Yeah.[00:22:34] Nathan:Probably we were just talking the other day. We have a shared investment in a ghost town, So we, we often talk about that,[00:22:40] Andrew:Oh yeah. I've[00:22:42] Nathan:Other thing[00:22:43] Andrew:That ghost town. Oh, that's a whole other thing I've been watching that[00:22:45] Nathan:I need to have speaking of the ghost town, I didn't have Brent Underwood on because that Is an insane story of everything going on with town, but it's just been building this massive audience.[00:22:58] Andrew:Who's doing YouTube videos from there? He[00:23:00] Nathan:Yeah. And he's now got 1.2[00:23:01] Andrew:Yeah,[00:23:02] Nathan:Subscribers on YouTube, like 2 million on[00:23:04] Andrew:I had no idea. I watched him in the early days of the pandemic go into this place by himself. Almost get trapped, driving his car to get there. Right. I go, this is fun content. And usually when you watch someone like that and good morning, America go, and I'm going to jump out of this thing.And I've never jumped before, maybe whatever. I don't know.Yo, the producer's not going to let you die. It's fine. Here you go, dude. Who's just trying to get attention for this thing. Cause he has some investors who he wants to make sure get what they want. Yeah, you could die. What the hell is you doing?What? Like I'm going to, I'm going to go down this hole and see if there's anything over you yet. Dude, you could[00:23:41] Nathan:Yeah. It's, it's pretty wild. I actually, some of the weeks that he don't, he, that he didn't post the videos. I'd like, texted him, be like, Brett, you're still alive because you know, the video was the way that we knew every Friday, like, okay, Good Brent. Still alive, everything. Everything's good. Anyway, I got to have him[00:23:58] Andrew:All right. If you do talk to, if you talk to Ryan holiday, I feel like you totally nailed his writing style, where you, you said in one of your past episodes that he can take a whole historical story, sum it up in two sentences to help clarify the moment that he's writing about. And it's like a toss away thing, right? Just toss it away and then move on and go, dude. That's a whole freaking book. In fact, just turning the whole thing into just two sentences to fit in there would take silo, bloom five hours. You put it in a book with other, like there a bunch of other sentences. So that's good. But here's what I think you should talk to him about.Or here's my, my one suggestion. He has not talked about Marketing since he created, trust me. I'm a lot. Trust me. I'm lying, which was a phenomenal book that then I feel like he distanced himself from when he became more stoic and more intellectual. Fine. He is still a great, great marketer along your style, your tasty.And in fact, he's becoming the people who I can think of that are very, ConvertKit like philosophy in their creation plus promotion. He nails it, right? Art that takes so much pain that you've mentioned, and we've all seen it. He has boxes of index cards to create these sentences that most people would just throw away, not pay attention to, but are super meaningful.And at the same time, he knows how to promote. He knows how to get his ideas out there. He knows how to sell a coin that says you're going to die in Latin, that people put in their pockets that are more than just selling a coin. It's selling this transferable viral, real life thing. Right. So anyway. And is he should be on a ConvertKit too.[00:25:29] Nathan:He is, he is[00:25:30] Andrew:Okay. Good.[00:25:31] Nathan:Half of his list started in Berkeley. The other half are in the process of switching over. So, you know,[00:25:36] Andrew:Okay. Yeah, that's the hard part, dude. I I'm with infusion soft. I can't stand them. If you understand how much I do not like them. I do I ever talk negatively about anyone. No. Bring up politics, Joe Biden, Donald Trump. I got no strong opinion about anything you talked to me about, about infusions. Ah, but the problem is it's so hard to wean yourself off of these things because once you're in a system, that's it[00:25:56] Nathan:Well we'll make it happen. W w we'll figure out a way, but the new book landing page for it, I went on there and inspected element. It's definitely a ConvertKit for them. I was pretty happy about it.[00:26:06] Andrew:Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So truthfully it was, I said, I'm not going to school around here. It would have probably been easier for me to go with, with infusion soft because then we all we'd have to do with tag people who were interested. And then I could, I don't want that. I don't want that nonsense because it comes with overhead.That becomes an obstacle to me, communicating with my audience by, by overhead. I mean, they've got historic legacy. Requirement's that mean I can't do anything right. You I'm on my iPad. I could just go in and send a message out. Or actually I haven't sent a message out. Someone else has sent a message out.Our publisher sent a message then from damn, ah, damn gravity. But I, but if someone says there's a problem, I can go in and see it.[00:26:44] Nathan:Right.[00:26:44] Andrew:And make adjustments. The whole thing just fricking works. Right?[00:26:47] Nathan:So I want to talk about the book more. Let's talk[00:26:49] Andrew:Sure.[00:26:50] Nathan:And now I have you here.[00:26:52] Andrew:Ben needs, us to talk about the book. He's the publisher.[00:26:54] Nathan:We'll get to that, then don't worry. Ben, we've got it covered. so you were giving unsolicited feedback, which by the way is my favorite kind of feedback. Okay.So as you've been listening to the show, what are some other things that maybe you recommended the book, maybe like as you set people up for interview questions, any of that advice that you would give beyond?We started with the men.[00:27:15] Andrew:I'm going to suggest that people who listen to you do pay attention to this. One thing that they should, I I'm interrupting you in a roadway now there's some good interruption that I write about in the book and I can tell you how to do it. Right. And I also have to say that there's some new Yorker that's built in, even though I've left New York a long time ago, that I, I always interrupt when we need to get into the bottom line.Okay. Here's one thing that I think people should pay attention with you. You don't just ask questions. You will, at times interject your own story, your own, take your own experience. And I find that a lot of times people either do it in a heavy handed way. It's like, look at me, I'm equal to you. I deserve to be in this conversation too.And that doesn't just happen on Mike. It happens at dinner parties or it's more like I have to be reverential. So I'm asking questions and it's me asking about them. And one of the things that I learned over the years, Getting to know someone interviewing someone, whether it's like you and I are doing in our podcasts and shows or doing it, in a, in a dinner conversation, it's not asking questions.It's not about saying here's my next thing. Here's my next question. It's overwhelming and draining to do that. You do need to say, well, here's me. You do need to sometimes just guide the person to say, now tell me how you wrote the book. Now tell me how long it takes to, to write a tweet, right? Whatever it is, you need to sometimes direct the person.And so I call the book, stop asking questions because that counter intuitive piece of knowledge is something that took me a fricking interview coach to help me accept that. It's true, but it helps. And you do it really well. And here's why you do it. Well, you interject something personal. Somehow you do it succinctly.You don't get rambling off. Maybe you edit that.No, no, because the videos are there. Yeah. It's, it's not edited. It's just you saying here's, here's my experience with this. And then when you come back and you ask something. It informs the guest about where you are and what they could contribute to that. It lets them also feel like this is a dialogue instead of them being pounded with demands of, in the forms of question.[00:29:15] Nathan:Yeah. Yeah. I think that for anyone listening and thinking about starting a podcast, it's really like, what's the kind of thing that you want to listen to. And I like it where the host is like a character in the, in the Podcast, in the episode where they're contributing content and it's not just like, oh, if I listened to Andrew on these 10 shows, I'm just going to get Andrew.Like, I want it where it's like, no, I'm getting the blend between these two people. And the unique things that come from that intersection rather than, you know, I've heard this[00:29:46] Andrew:Yes.[00:29:47] Nathan:I've heard about it.[00:29:48] Andrew:I think also it took me a long time years of, so I started doing this in 2007, give or take a year and I think. No one needs to talk about, I don't need to talk about myself. They don't care about me. They care about, you know, Paul Graham, who I'm interviewing about how he found a Y Combinator, someone.And I would get tons of emails from people saying, tell us who you are. Tell us a little bit about yourself. And I would argue with them and say, no, but I understand now on the outside, when I listen, I don't know who you are. And it feels very awkward to hear it. It feels very much like, I don't know why, where you're coming from.And so I don't know why I should listen. It's kinda, it's it's counterintuitive.[00:30:29] Nathan:Yeah. I think it just comes with comfort over time. Like, I, I don't know this for sure. If I bet if I listen back to my first podcast episodes, the ones that I did in like 2015. I have a different style because I bet I'm less comfortable or more worried about like, make sure that I shut up quickly so that the guests can talk more because people came here for the guest and then over time you just get more comfortable.[00:30:53] Andrew:So you wrote authority and I remember you, I remember buying it and I remember you bundled it with a bunch of stuff, right. And oh, by the way, it's so cool. I was listening to it on a run and I heard you mention my name in the, in the book I go, this is great and I'm running. but I remember you did interviews there.I don't remember whether the style matches up to today or what, but you did interviews in it. Right.[00:31:15] Nathan:I did.[00:31:16] Andrew:And what you had there that I think is always important to have with all, all interviews is you had a sense of like, well, the sense of mission, I knew what you were going for, because you were trying to say, here is this book that I've written on this topic.I'm want to bring these people in to bring their, their take on it. We were all kind of working together. And I feel like, when I look at my earlier interviews, I listened to them. The Mike sucks so badly. I was too ponderous. Cause I wanted to be like, IRA glass from, from NPR, from this American life.And you could hear the same rhythm, the same cadence, like I'm copying him. Like I'm his little brother trying to learn how to be like a real boy. but I had this real need. I was trying to figure out how these people were building companies that work to understand what holes I had in my understanding to see what was working for them that I didn't know before.And you could see that and it, it helps. It helped me continue. Even when I was nervous with the guest, it helped the guests know where to go. Even when I wasn't doing good job, guiding them and help the audience keep listening in, even when the audio stopped, because there's this thing that Andrew is trying to understand.And you almost feel like you're the sense of vulnerability. If it doesn't scare you away, then it makes you want to root.[00:32:40] Nathan:Yeah. And I personally love that style because I want to follow someone going on a journey and, and trying to accomplish something specific. But let's talk about the not just the book, but asking questions or in this case, stopping it, stop asking questions. What are the things that not even just specific to this job, what are the things that you listened to interview shows?And you're like, okay, here are the three things that I want to change or that I want to coach you on in the same way that I was coached on.[00:33:10] Andrew:Okay. So what I started to do is I go through my own transcripts. I mean, I had years of transcripts to see what worked and what didn't I already done that. So I said, I need to now add to it. And so I went back and looked at historical interviews, like when Barbara Walters interviewed Richard Nixon and got him so frustrated that he didn't want to ever talk to her again.Or when Oprah finally got to sit with Lance Armstrong, how did she do that? I think. You know, you know, let me pause on, on Oprah and Lance Armstrong. She got to interview him after he, he was basically caught cheating and he was about to come out and do it. Great. Get, I think the fact that she interviewed him, there's a lesson there for, for all of us who are interviewing, interviewing the top 10 interviews, I think of all time.And you go back to Wikipedia and look it up. You see art or interview podcast or interview, sorry, our news-based interviews. We as podcasters, keep thinking, how do I get enough in the can so that if I die tomorrow, there's enough interviews to last for a month or whatever, so that I can be consistent in the audience loved me.That's great. But I think we should also be open to what's going on in the world today. Let's go talk to that person today. If there's an artist who suddenly done something, we should go and ask to do an interview with them. If there's a creator, if there's someone. So for me, one of the top interviews that people still it's been years, people still come back and talk to me about is when Matt Mullenweg decided that he was gonna pull out Chris[00:34:35] Nathan:Pearson.[00:34:35] Andrew:Per Pearson.Pearson's, themes from WordPress. And I got to talk to both of them at the same time and I published it and it went all over the internet with all over the WordPress internet. So hundreds of different blog posts about it, eventually all the people in the WordPress world write a lot of blogs, but also it became news.And so we don't do enough of that.[00:34:57] Nathan:I remember that interview because I was in the WordPress community at that time. And I remember you saying like, wait, I'm in Skype and I have both of you in two different things and you pull it together and not to pull Ryan holiday into this too much, but that's where he ended up writing the book.Was it, he realized he was one of the only people who was talking to like both Peter teal and, who's the Gawker guy.Yeah. Anyway, people know, but, but being in the intersection of that, so you're saying find something that's relevant on the news[00:35:33] Andrew:Yeah. Nick Denton was the founder of Gawker. Yes. Find the things that are relevant right now. And when people are hot right now, and they know you and you have credibility in this space, they trust you more than they trust. Say the wall street journal, even right, where they don't know where's this going.I think that's, that's one thing. The other thing is I think we don't have enough of a story within interviews. If we're doing S if we're doing at Mixergy, my podcast and interview where we're telling someone's story, we want them to be somewhere where the audience is at the beginning and then to have done something or had something happen to them that sets them on their own little journey.And then we make this whole interview into this. Into this a hero's journey approach. So I think better when I have an actual company in mind, so, or a person in mind. So last week I was interviewing this guy, Rohit Rowan was a person who was working at SanDisk, had everything going right for him. His boss comes to him and says it, you're now a director, continue your work.But now more responsibilities he's elated. He goes back, home, comes back into the office. Things are good, does work. And then a couple of days later he's told, you know, we mean temporarily, right? And he goes, what do you mean? I thought I got, I got a promotion. No, this is temporary. While our director's out you're director of this department.And then you go back, he says, the very next day, he couldn't go back into the office. He sat in his car, just, he couldn't do it anymore. And so he decided at that point, he'd heard enough about entrepreneurship heard enough ideas. He had to go off on and do it himself. And so we did. And then through the successes and failures, we now have a story about someone who's doing something that we can relate to, that we aspire to be more.[00:37:13] Nathan:So, how do you, you, your researchers, how do you find that moment before you have someone on? Because so many people will be like, yes, let me tell you about my business today. And oh, you want to know about that? How'd, you know, you know, like, as you,[00:37:27] Andrew:Yeah,[00:37:28] Nathan:That hook in that moment? That actually is a catalyst in their own dream.[00:37:33] Andrew:It's tough. It's it takes hours of talking to the guest of, of looking online of hunting for that moment. And it takes a lot of acceptance when it doesn't happen. One of my interview coaches said, Andrew, be careful of not looking for the Batman moment. And I said, what do you mean? He goes, you're always looking for the one moment that changed everything in people's lives.Like when Batman's parents got shot. And from there, he went from being a regular boy to being a superhero. Who's going to cry, fight crime everywhere. His life doesn't really work that way. There aren't these one moments, usually the change, everything. So I try not to. Put too much pressure on any one moment, but there are these little moments that indicate a bigger thing that happened to us.And I look for those and I allow people to tell that without having it be the one and only thing that happened. So if Pharaoh, it, it wasn't that moment. It could've just been, you know what, every day I go into the office and things are boring. And I think I have to stop. What I look for is give me an example of a boring.Now he can tell me about a day, a day, where he's sitting at his desk and all he's doing is looking at his watch, looking at his watch and he has to take his watch, put it in his drawer so that he doesn't get too distracted by looking at his watch all day. Cause he hates it. Now was that the one moment that changed everything?It was one of many moments. It might've happened a year before he quit, but it's an indication. So when we're telling stories, we don't have to shove too much pressure into one moment, but I do think it helps to find that one moment that encapsulates their, why, why did they go on this journey? Why does someone who's in SanDisk decide he's going to be an entrepreneur?Why did someone who was a baseball player decide that he had to go and write a blog post? Why is it? What's the thing that then sends them off on this journey? It helps. And I would even say, if you can get that moment, it just helps to get the thing that they were doing before that we can relate to. So what's the thing that they did before.So anyway, we have two different types of interviews. One is the story-based interview where we tell a story of how someone achieved something great. And so that hero's journey is and approach. The other one is someone just wants to teach them. All you want to do is just pound into them for an hour. Give me another tip another tip another tip of how to do this.Like pound, pound, pound, pound pound. If you want the audience to listen. I think for there, it helps to have what I call the cult hook because I said, how do I, how do cults get people to listen to, to these people who are clearly whack jobs sometimes. And so studying one called I saw that what they did was they'd have a person up on stage who talked about how, you know, I used to really be a Boozer.If you came into my house, you would see that there'd be these empty six packs. I was so proud of leaving the empty six packs everywhere to show myself how much alcohol I can drink. My wife left me. And when she left me, she just told me that I hadn't amounted to anything in my life. And I was going nowhere.And I just said, get I here. Instead of appreciating that this was just like terrible. And I ran out of toilet paper and don't even get me started with what, what I did for that. And so you see someone who's worry worse off than you are on this path of life. And then something has. They discover whoever it is.That's the cult leader. And they say, now I've got this real estate firm I encouraged by, oh, by the way, all of you to come over and take a look at that at this, I couldn't believe it. My whole life. I wanted to buy a Tesla. I now have the Tesla S it's amazing. It's just so great. And I did it all because I changed the way I thought once I came in and I found this one book and the book told me, I mean, anyways, so what we try to do is we say, if you're going to have somebody come on to teach how they became a better blogger, let's not have them start over elevated where everything they do is so great that we can't relate, have them start off either relatable or worse.I couldn't write here's my grammar, mistakes. My teacher told. Right. And now what's the thing that they did. They pick them from where they were to where they are today. it's this real set of realizations. Now I want to go into that.Let's pound into them and see how many of those tips we can get. Let's learn that I want to go from where he was to where he is.[00:41:28] Nathan:Yeah, I liked that a lot. Cause my inclination would be like, okay, we're we're doing the, educational, tactical conversation. I'm going to facilitate it. Let's dive right in and let's get to the actionable stuff right away. So I like what you're saying of like, no, no, no. We need to, even though this is going to be 90% packed, full of actionable material, we need to dive in and set the stage first with the story and making it relatable.And I like it.[00:41:55] Andrew:Yeah,[00:41:55] Nathan:Oh, yeah. I was just, just in my own head for a second. Cause I say, ah, that makes sense a lot, so much so that I've had three different guests or listeners email me and say like, just don't say that makes sense as much would, now that I'm saying it on the show, I'll probably get more emails every time that I say it.Cause that's like my processing, like, oh, oh, that makes sense. As I'm thinking of the next question and all that, so[00:42:22] Andrew:I do something like that too. For me. It's IC,[00:42:25] Nathan:Everyone has to have something.[00:42:26] Andrew:I can't get rid of that and yeah.[00:42:28] Nathan:So what systems have you put in place on the research side so that you're getting this, are you doing pre-interviews forever? Yes. Are you having your[00:42:38] Andrew:Almost every single one, some of the best people in some of the best entrepreneurs on the planet, I'm surprised that they will spend an hour or do a pre-interview. And sometimes I'm too sheepish to say, I need an hour of your time and I need you to do a pre-interview. So instead of saying, I need you to do a pre-interview.I say, here's why people have done it. And I've paid for somebody to help make my guests better storytellers of their own stories. And truthfully people will go through that. Pre-interview even if they don't want to do an interview, they just need to get better at telling their story for their teams, their employees, their everyone.Right. and so I say that, and then they will take me up on the pre-interview and say, yes, I do want to do the pre-interview. and so what I try to do is I try to outline the story. Ahead of time in a set of questions. And then what we do is we scramble them up a little bit based on what we think people will tell us first and what will make them feel a little more comfortable.And then throughout the interview, I'll adjust it. So for example, no, one's going to care about the guest unless they have a challenge. No guest wants to come on and say, I'm going to tell you about what's what I really suck at or where I've really been challenged. If they do, they're going to give you a fake made up thing that they've told a million times to make themselves seem humble.So we don't ask that in the beginning. We don't even ask it in the middle. We save it till the very end. Now they've gotten some time with us. They've gotten some rapport, they trust us. Then we go into tell me about the challenges, what hasn't worked out for you. And we really let them know why tell people the higher purpose you want the audience to relate.You want them to believe you. You want them to see themselves in you, and to learn from you. We need. They tell us, and then I have it in my notes as the last section, but I use it throughout the interview. I sprinkle it. So the goal is to get the pieces that we want and in whatever order makes the most sense and then reshape it for the interview Day.[00:44:33] Nathan:So on the interview itself, you would, you would flip that and you know, okay, this is what I want to start with and, and dive in right[00:44:41] Andrew:Yup. Yup.[00:44:43] Nathan:Lose. They already told you about that. And so now, you[00:44:46] Andrew:Right,[00:44:46] Nathan:In and start with.[00:44:47] Andrew:Right. That helps. Now, if there's something I want to ask someone about that they're not comfortable with. One thing that I do is I, I tip them off. So Jason Calacanis invited me to go do, interviews with, with investors at one of his conferences. It was just a bunch of, investors. And I looked at this one guy, Jonathan tryst, and he looked really great.But he, what am I supposed to do? Ask him about what startups should do to run their businesses. He's never run a startup. His, he hadn't at that time had a successful exit. As far as I knew, like mega successful exit. He's just a really nice guy. You can tell he was going places, but that's it. And the money that he was investing came from his parents.So what is this rich parents giving their kids some money. Now he's going to tell everyone in the VC, in the startup and VC audience, how to live their lives. So I said, I'm either not going to address it, which I think most people are, or I have to find a way to address it where I'm not going to piss them off and have them just clam up on me and then go to Jason and go.This guy just is a terrible interviewer, which is not true. So what I decided to do was tip him off. I said, look, Jonathan, before we do this, before we start talking to the audience, I have to tell you, I saw it, that you don't have much of a track record as an investor. Your money came from your parents and you're not like a tech startup, like people here.If we don't talk about it, people who know it are going to think, oh, this guy, Jonathan, look, who's trying to pass him soft self off. I don't have to force it in here, but if you allow me to, I'd like to bring it up and let's talk about, and it goes, yeah, absolutely. If it's out there, I want to make sure that we address it and sure enough, we talked about it and he had a great answer.He said, no, this came from my parents. It's not my own money. I don't have as much experience as other people, but I took my parents' money. I invested it, fat parents and family and so on. We've had a good track record with it. And now have raised the second Fallon fund from outsiders who saw what I was able to do with the first one.And by the way, I may not have this mega exit as a startup investor, as a startup entrepreneur. But I did have this company that did okay. Not great. Here's what it did Here's what I learned And that's all informing me. And that's where I come from now. You've got someone talking about the, the, the thing that matters without pissing them off so much that they don't say anything else.And you feel like you feel superior as an interviewer. I got them. But in reality, you got nothing[00:46:57] Nathan:Right.[00:46:57] Andrew:Cares.[00:46:58] Nathan:I think that's a really hard line of talking about the things that are difficult and like the actual, maybe things that someone did wrong or lessons that they learned without just like barely dipping into it for a second. And I liked the format of tipping them off in like full transparency.So on this show, I had someone on who I really, really respect his name's Dickie Bush. He's one of the earlier episodes in this series and in it, he, okay. Yeah. So in that interview, one thing that I knew is that his, the first version of his course plagiarized text from another friend, Sean McCabe, actually Shaun's company edits is Podcast and all that.And I've known both of them for, for quite a while. I've known Sean for like, I dunno, six, seven years or something. And I was like, struggling with how to bring that up. And I wanted from the like founder, transparent journey, that sort of thing I wanted it brought up because I, I actually like, I'm happy to talk about like some pretty major things that I've screwed up and what I've learned from it.And I just think it makes a better conversation. And then from the interview side, I don't feel good, like doing an interview and not touching on that, but I didn't tip Dickey off to it. And I, that was one of the things that I've regretted that he gave a great answer. He talked about the lessons that he learned from it.It was really, really good, but I felt bad that I didn't set him up for the most success in like in setting up. And part of that, part of it is because even at the start of the interview, I was still wrestling with now, I'm not going to bring that up that, ah, maybe I should, it wouldn't be an authentic interview if I didn't like wrestling with that, I hadn't figured out my own, like made my own decision until we were in the middle of it.And so I didn't, I didn't set anybody up for success. And so it's an interesting line.[00:48:52] Andrew:It happens. And it seems like I'm now in the point of your transcript, where you, where you ask him, it's a 31 minutes into the interview. I think his response is great. He came in and he took responsibility for it. He says, yeah, that, that, that was a dramatic mistake, or a drastic mistake on my side and caught up in it.He wasn't the most articulate here and he'd repeated words. Like I, I, a couple of times, so I could see that he probably was uncomfortable with it. but I think his answer was great. I think, I believe that we all are broadcasting out, whether we know it or not, our intentions and where we're coming from, as some people are really good at faking it.And so I'm not going to talk about the outliers and some people are so uncomfortable that they're messing up the transmission, but for the most part almost. broadcasting our intentions. If you walk into that, Nathan, with the, I got to get him because he, he got one of my friends and I need him to finally get his comeuppance.He's going to pick up on that. And truthfully, it's such a small thing for a person like you who's, who's already a likable person. You have a lot to offer people, right? As far as like promotion and everything else, it will be forgiven, but it'll be picked up on, it's also something that people could pick up on, which is Nathan really want to know this thing.It's been bothering him for a while. And if you could, just, before you asked the question, say, where am I coming from with this? And know that the audience will mostly pick up on it. And obviously people are gonna like read in whatever they feel like, but trust that the vast majority of us understand, I think it'll work[00:50:21] Nathan:Yeah,[00:50:22] Andrew:You don't have to even tip. You don't have to tip off, but it does help. It, it definitely helps.[00:50:26] Nathan:It's interesting. I was watching an interview with, Jordan Peterson who wrote 12 rules for life. He's like a very controversial figure. And I was just often these controversies pass by, on Twitter and other places. And I realized like, oh, I don't understand them. And rather than jumping on one side or the other, at least try to like dive in a little bit and understand it.So watching this interview, and I can't remember, I think it was some major Canadian TV show or something, and that you would tell the interview was just trying to nail him it every possible chance, like whatever he said, just like dive in. And, so I think you're right, that you see the intention, like in that case, you would see the, the interview, his intention was specifically to try to trip him up in his words.And then in other cases where it's like, This is something that, you know, if you take the other approach, this is something that's been bothering me, or I want to talk about it. Like I genuinely want, you know, to ask or learn from this. It's a very different thing.[00:51:20] Andrew:I think people pick up on it. I remember you, you mentioned Seth Godin. I remember interviewing him when he wrote the book tribes back before people had online communities. And I didn't just say, okay. All our heroes, all the best entrepreneurs just run their businesses. Then don't run a tribe. I brought out books.I said, here's a book about Warren buffet. Here's the book by Sam Walton. The Walmart here's a book by Ted Turner became a multi-billionaire to creating all these, these media empires didn't have communities. They don't have tribes. And now you're telling me that in addition to my job, I also have to go and build out a tribe.It feels like, you know, an extra job. That just seems right for the social first. This just sounds right on social media and you could actually see. He's watching me as I'm saying it, and he's smiling, he's watching it because he's trying to read me, is this like what I get wrapped up? Is this going to be some kind of thing where some guy's going to try to be in the next Gawker media?Or is, is this a safe place? We're all doing that constantly. And then he also saw, okay, this is someone who really wants to understand this. And he's challenging me. I like a challenge. And you could see him smile with like, this is what I'm here for. And so I think when you come at it from a good point of view, people can see it and then you can go there and you can go there and you can go there and it will be shocking to you and them and the audience, how far you go. But when you're coming from that genuine place, they get, they get it.They want it.[00:52:44] Nathan:Yeah, that's good.I want to talk about longevity in like the online world. I think that so many people that I started following in say 2007, 2008, nine, and then I didn't start creating myself until 2011. most of them aren't around anymore. Like a lot of the big blogs, Yeah, just so many that I can think of.They're not around anymore. They're not doing this. You're at a point where like you started messaging in some form in what? 20, sorry, 2004 to somewhere in there and then interviews.[00:53:17] Andrew:Yeah, I keep saying 16. It's like, yeah. 2004 is when I started the interview started 2007 ish somewhere there. Give or take a year. yeah, long. I, I will say that there are parts of my work that I am burned out on right now. This year has been that, but I'm not on the interview. And the reason I'm not is because I do enjoy conversations.I hated them for a long time in my life because I just didn't know how to have them, how to have it make sense. I also didn't give myself permission to take the conversation where I wanted it to go. And it helps now to say, I can talk to anyone about anything. That's an opportunity that, that feels fun because I know how to do it.It's an opportunity to, it feels like, like, you know how everyone's so happy. You can go to YouTube and you could get the answer to anything. Well, I could go to anybody and I could get the answer to anything and talk about how they didn't have a customized to me, YouTube, not customized thing to me, I'm watching Gotham chess on YouTube.He's teaching me how to play chess, but he will not customize to the fact that every time I get into a car con defense, all the pieces like bunched over to my side. But if he and I did an interview, or if I do an interview with an tomorrow's entrepreneur, it's going to be about, here's the thing I'm trying to deal with.How did you get past that? Talk to me about what you're up to there.[00:54:31] Nathan:Yeah, that's definitely energizing. Okay. But what are the things that you're burnt out on? Because I think a lot of people are seeing that burnout. And so I guess first, what are you burned out on? And then second, we can go from there into like, what are you changing and how are you managing.[00:54:46] Andrew:I'm burned out on parts of the business behind, behind Mixergy I'm burned out on. I was aspiring to like unbelievable greatness with the, with the course part of it, with the courses, it didn't get there and I'm tired of trying to make it into this thing. That's going to be super big. I'm tired of that.[00:55:10] Nathan:His greatness there, like linda.com? Like what, what was that?[00:55:15] Andrew:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. Yeah. She was one of my first interviewees and, and so yeah, I saw the model there and I am frustrated that I didn't get to that and I, I don't have a beat myself up type a perso

Nick deWilde is a Product Marketing Principal at Guild Education. Guild is a fast-growing startup that partners with Fortune 500 employers. Guild unlocks opportunities for America's workforce via education and upskilling.Nick also runs his newsletter, The Jungle Gym. The Jungle Gym helps readers build a more fulfilling career that integrates work and life. Before working at Guild, Nick earned his MBA from Stanford Business School, and was a Managing Partner at Tradecraft.Nick and I talk about his relationship with Twitter, and how social media can both serve you, and be a challenge. We talk about individual brands and growing a platform. Nick also shares his thoughts about marketing yourself as an individual, and we discuss how growing an audience plays into your career.In this episode, you'll learn: Building an audience while working full-time Three reasons people start newsletters What to do when your follower count hits a plateau Links & Resources Morning Brew Fastly Joseph Henrich, The Secret of Our Success Julian Shapiro Sahil Bloom Dickie Bush Medium Tiago Forte Building a Second Brain David Perell Write of Passage Tradecraft Guild Hacker news John Lee Dumas Packy McCormick Mario Gabriele Seth Godin Rachel Carlson On Deck Gong Matt Ragland Charli Prangley The Nathan Barry Show, featuring Kimberly Brooks Harry Stebbings The Twenty Minute VC Isa Adney Liz Fosslien, No Hard Feelings: The Secret Power of Embracing Emotions at Work Discord Reddit Pallet Craft + Commerce ConvertKit Enough Ryan Holiday James Clear Marie Forleo Ramit Sethi Nick deWilde's Links Follow Nick on Twitter Nick's newsletter, The Jungle Gym To tweet, or not to tweet Episode Transcript[00:00:00] Nick:I've tried to do things in my writing where my employer benefits from them. I talk about work a lot, and whenever I talk about hiring, I mention Gild is hiring. There are things I do to just try to make sure that it still feels worth the company's while.[00:00:25] Nathan:In this episode, I talk to Nick deWilde, who writes a popular newsletter called The Jungle Gym. He's got a background in product and growth, and all these things from the startup world. I just love the approach that he's taken to writing these days.We talk about growing as newsletter. We talk about his interesting relationship with Twitter and social media. How it can really serve you and be this great thing, and then it can also be challenging. Maybe you're spending too much time on it, or time on it in a way that's not actually serving you or benefiting you.We talk about the rise of individual brands being used to grow a platform. It's something I've been thinking a lot about, watching Morning Brew and Fastly, and some of these other companies do it. It's just interesting whether you're marketing as a company or an individual. It's just a good conversation. We also talk about audience, and just how that plays into your career.He recently made the switch from a full-time role, to doing more audience-based business stuff. He was just in the middle of that journey. So, it's a fun place and time to catch up in the conversation.Nick, welcome to the show.[00:01:33] Nick:Hey, thanks for having me, Nathan.[00:01:35] Nathan:I want to start on this article you have, that I like a lot, called, “To tweet, or not to tweet,” That got you ahead. I also happened to go to the Shakespeare festival recently, and watched them do “The Complete Works of Shakespeare, Abridged.”So, you know, I could probably pull off a good, to[00:01:50] Nick:Nice.[00:01:51] Nathan:Be or not to be speech right now. It's in my head because I think about all the wonderful things that Twitter and an audience beyond that does for me. Then also the negative sides of it. So maybe we dive into that, but I'd also love to hear what sparked you diving in and building an audience.[00:02:11] Nick:Yeah, I'm so conflicted on Twitter, and audience building in general. Like anything, I imagine there's a fair number of people who you talked to, who are in the writing community, who feel that way. On the one hand, Twitter does so many things for me. Especially over the past couple of years.As we've been in lockdown, lives have moved online. I have met and made friends with so many amazing people through Twitter that I wouldn't have met otherwise. Same with the newsletter, but Twitter is a little bit easier to build those relationships.Twitter has definitely helped grow my bank account. So, there are clearly things that being online and participating in the online world really does for you that are valuable.I think, building an audience is super valuable.When I think about the future of work, and what will be automated and what won't be, I really think that human beings, our greatest strength that is the hardest to copy is our ability to influence other people. This really comes from some of the thinking of author Joseph Heinrich, who looked at what is the secret of human success.It's cultural learning. It's our ability to essentially watch what other people do, and mimic them. We're really good at detecting what is a real human and what's not, and who's someone prestigious that we should learn from, and who isn't.I think that audience building is super valuable. So, even though I don't love the activity of building an audience, I have gotten a lot of value out of it, and I see the value in it. So, I very much come from a conflicted spot in this. I'm very impressed by people like Julian, and Sahil, and Dickie Bush, who have grown amazing audiences.Some days I aspire to 10X my audience, and some days I'm just like, please let me be a monk and live in seclusion.[00:04:20] Nathan:Well? Okay. So I had a Twitter thread last week that I did It was on company culture for remote teams, and I've had some that like take off and do well before, but this was like 1300 retweets, like almost a million impressions, a level of taking off. And on one hand I was like, this is amazing.And the other, I like checked the notifications and the replies so many times, and it was fascinating watching it go from like my circle to the next circle, out to the next circle out. And like, we're still in like positive replies, happy. Oh, build on it, refine it. And then like the one circle past that, which it took about, let's say 12 to 18 hours to get to[00:05:06] Nick:Yeah[00:05:06] Nathan:And that was the. This guy's an idiot. I'd never want to work at that company. you know, like all like the, the haters and the non from there, and then it like dies out and this is weird arc of his, we should graph it, but it just made me think of, is this something that I want to do and want, had I added thousands of Twitter followers?I think I could recreate it. Like maybe one in five attempts would like hit that big. Who knows. but I wrestle with the exact question of like, do I want this?[00:05:36] Nick:You and you're, you're just, you're like jacked up on dopamine. You're like, you're, you're sort of you're you, you, you start just imagining all the good things that will come from this. I should be doing this all the time. Like, you know, I, I mean, I think it's, it's sort of pre progressive problems, right?Like, like there's, there's the problem of like having a smaller audience and like putting something out into the ether and then, this, this kind of, getting no response, right. That, that, that's the first thing that, that actually like most people kind of deal with. Right. And, and, and that's, that's a weird thing because it's like, it's like, you're, you're then judging the quality of your ideas based on the ability of, based on basically your, your audience's response and, and realizing like, you're not actually talking to your audience, you're talking to.Subsection that Twitter has decided that you can talk to at that specific point in time. And so, and then you're basically judging your own ideas based off that. And if, if your idea is like, I think, I think when you hit a certain bar of audience, like you can, you can share ideas that are, pretty complex and nuanced and like you'll, you'll find some, some sort of interest for it and it has a potential to take off, but like there there's stuff where if it's kind of interesting and nuanced there, isn't really kind of a built in audience for it.And people don't really have the time to like always dig in and kind of engage and try to like, find what's at the kernel of, it's why I like newsletters a lot more than I like tweeting. But, but, but, but I think, I think what you're, you know, then there's, there's, there's the problem where once you get big enough, like you're now being your ideas are being put in front of a bunch of people who like you didn't intend them for.And those people for some reason have decided to invite into their lives, like conflict with strangers on the internet, because[00:07:19] Nathan:That's like a primary goal,[00:07:21] Nick:Right, right. It's like, it's it. It's what gives them a great day. Right. And, and, and so, so yeah, it's, it's such a weird thing. And so I, like, I mean, I, I think about this with like, I equate Twitter, often to, to kind of, like refined sugar, right.With refined sugar, right. It's it's, it's what we call supernormal stimuli. Right. It, it, it, or super, super normal stimulus. and, and what that is, is basically something that like replaces some natural, like evolutionary desire you have with something kind of artificial that just sends your brain on like overdrive seeking that thing, seeking that thing over and over.And, and that is. That's what Twitter is. It's, it's, it's refined status instead of refined sugar. And that refined status is like, it just, it takes this thing that you normally do, which is like seek, prestige from your, your tribal group, which was a really good thing to do to make sure that you, you know, ate a good meal.And it, and it puts that into, into this crazy overdrive and it like, it centers your brain around it, and it's, it's such a, it's a really powerful thing. And so I, you know, again, right, it's like, there's all these great gifts that come from Twitter and then there's, then there are all these drawbacks and it's, it's almost like perfect equilibrium of, should you do it or should you not?And I don't begrudge anyone either way for their decision.[00:08:46] Nathan:What I always wonder is if I could only have the benefits, like, is there a way let's say that you don't doom scroll Twitter with the latest news and whatever's going wrong, or whatever, latest Twitter fight there is. Maybe you do in a separate app publish these like smart tweets or brilliant threads that are going to get all this attention.And you do one of those every day, but then like you jump in an hour later and respond to a bunch of comments and then like the next day you do it again for 30 minutes and then like, that's it. And you just bat, like, there is this world where you could own Twitter rather than Twitter owning you, but like, are you capable of it?Do you have the self-discipline to pull that off?[00:09:33] Nick:Totally. And, and I, and I think, I think like, you know, I I've talked, I think Julian about this and I think he uses like tweet deck for it. And I think, I think there are ways you can do it. Right. I like for awhile, I was good at like, I would tweet in the morning and then I would like uninstalled the app off my phone.So I wouldn't look at it. and like, there are things that you can do. it's just, it's just really hard because I think to some degree what Twitter, rewards, especially when, when you're on the audience building path. Right. I think when you're like, tens of thousand or hundreds of thousands of followers, you, you actually have a lot more leeway to do what you want.Because, because like, you're just, it's likely that your tweets will work, but like when you're building your ions, there's, there's something that like, it's sort of like, there's a Turing test that's happening, right. People are sort of looking, are you an engaged human being? Cause I I've I've I knew some people who sort of, they, they schedule and preplan all their tweets and like, and to some degree they, they just, they don't hit, they don't work because it doesn't feel real time.They're responding in real time. So like[00:10:35] Nathan:Out of pace. You're out of touch with what's happening with.[00:10:38] Nick:Exactly And so, and so it's, it's sort of, Twitter's kind of like looking for these weird signs of life. So I think it's, I think it's doable. There, there must be some way to do this, but, it's tough. I think the, the other, the other thing that Twitter did to me, that I, disliked is, it makes me feel like my relationships are very transactional because you have these likes retweets, and like these, these, Very clear, like signals of engagement.You, you start to like, or I start to like, to like keep score. Right. And, and I, and I don't, I like, I don't do that anywhere else in life. I think a good, like obviously good relationships tend to start out transactional and then like, they, you kind of forget what the transactions are and like that, that's what creates a close friendship where like, look like you may have paid from the last time I paid for you this time.It doesn't really matter anymore because we transacted so many times, but, but Twitter, for some reason, the score always feels out there. And, and so that was, that's really been like a little bit of a red flag to me. And I, I I try to keep a generous mindset and a generous spirit on Twitter, but I find it harder than in real life.[00:11:52] Nathan:That makes sense to me. So maybe taking a step back, and maybe we'll wrestle with some of these, like to grow an audience or not to grow an audience questions[00:12:00] Nick:Sure[00:12:02] Nathan:What was the thing that, sparked for you? I'm like, I'm going to go start a sub stack. I'm going to actively work to build an audience.[00:12:10] Nick:Yeah, I, so I was writing on, on medium starting in like 2013, maybe. Um and and really got a lot out of it. I, I started my career out as a, as a screenwriter, so I was planning to go into the TV industry and like, and, and for, you know, for, for many reasons, found that to be, a path where like, you didn't really control your destiny.I saw I met lots of, you know, mid thirties, you know, production assistants who were slightly bitter. And then, so I just kind of realized like, this, this wasn't exactly a good path, for me. And so, but I, I wanted to kind of keep that like, that creativity, that like interaction with an audience, I think, you know, it, it was.And found that in writing. And so And so started publishing on medium. Um we was a great experience in terms of how quick it was to publish, but like the distribution of publishing a medium sucks, right? Like, you're you you, you publish ones and then like you spam all your friends and like, you're, you're just, you're working super hard to like push this thing and promote it.And I was like, there's gotta be some way that's a little bit easier. and so I actually ended up in, I think I took, I took Tiago Forte is building a second brain course that kind of like, magically grandfathered me in somehow to like David Pearl's first um uh cohort or Write of Passage, which was awesome And like, I would say, like, I took a lot out of that, but like the biggest thing was, was like start a newsletter. and so basically I started out, I think I started out with a review even. but but anyway like started publishing. Opted in when I knew onto the email list, which I'm sure they, they may or may not appreciate it, but this is before there were tons of sales tax out.And so I felt like it wasn't, it wasn't that crazy. I probably wouldn't have done that in like 20, 20, but, but w really wanted like a way to like, continually kind of interact with my audience without having to worry about like, you know, just, just kind of constantly doing the heavy promotion work.Um now that's because I now you know posts just as a part of medium but but at least there's those sort of a built in audience that kind of grows over time that you kind of keep with you. and, and so. doing that, it was kind of it's kind of a mix of for work and for life.I, I was, at the time, the managing partner of a, of a, uh immersive education program called Tradecraft. And like we, we would help people make sort of complex career transitions into the startup world. And and so a lot of what I was writing was kind of about that. It was about careers. but it also tied in with, with kind of deep interests.It was sort of why I took the role in the first place. and, and what I found when I, when I moved from Tradecraft over to Guild was like that kind of nicely traveled with me. and, and I think there's, there's something, something really nice about a newsletter, being a kind of an appendage to your career, where, like it expands your professional identity to a certain degree.You, you can become a little bit more than just your job, especially working for, like, like a single individual company, especially if you're, if, if the company is larger you, have to deal with a lot of like coordination challenges. there there's a lot of bureaucracy that happens at a company And one of the nice things about having a newsletter is you are in charge of it. It's like you're the CEO of it. the product ships, when you choose to ship it and you have complete editorial say over it, and the distribution that you put into it is what you get out of it. And and there's something really nice about that.It helped me kind of identify as a person who who, ships a lot, even when, sometimes, you know, you know, you you have to work on something at at work that takes a long time.[00:16:12] Nathan:Have you found a dress core even a strong correlation between the effort that you put in to your newsletter and your audience growth and the results that you get out, or does it feel like a more tenuous connection?[00:16:24] Nick:I think, I think there is a pretty good, like w w when I think a post is going to really hit it usually does and so I would say like, like when I put effort into, into writing something really good, I think usually it meets it meets or exceeds my expectations. And when, and when I feel like something is, I'm kind of honing in on, on a, on a post, like usually I get that too.So I think what, what can also happen. You know, sometimes you post something to hacker news and it turns out it's somehow on the front page and like that your audience growth spikes, or like you get featured in someone else's newsletter and your audience grows spikes. And like, there there's a lot of activities that like, you know, I'm not doing directly to promote it, but but it just sort of, um you know, happens in a nice way.And so that's happened, you know, more than a few times and like, that's a pretty neat thing, but like, I think to some degree that comes from just trying a lot of different things and then like, there's sort of like a, a second order effect of some of those things really, you know, hitting it off.[00:17:28] Nathan:Yeah, I think that's that's right. I knew in the early days of starting my newsletter, I felt a strong correlation between what I was working on and like the effort that I put in and the results that I got out, been been interested well at the time I do like a really epic blog post where I put of effort, you know, we're kind of the, for, you know, off and on for weeks or months and like really a hundred and get friends to read it, all of that.Those pretty much always do really well. But what I'm surprised by is sometimes the throwaway posts really, throwing it. Like, it's a simple idea that you flushed out into a post and you were. Hey, it's Tuesday. I got to get something out. Like it's sort of in that[00:18:09] Nick:Totally[00:18:09] Nathan:Sometimes those really hit.Sometimes they actually resonate. Have you had some of those that were like easy easy ones ones that hit?[00:18:18] Nick:So the, publishing cadence is I do, I do two, two posts a month and one a and it used to be, it used to be one post a month. And then I basically separated out into two. Cause I realized like it was too much to kind of condense into, into one post. And like, I wasn't getting the. The, as many eyeballs on like the second half, so decide to pull them apart.One is kind of one big essay. And the second is a, is is of like a, a But I think of it as like, as like I do pretty deep them. So it's actually of like a, here's what this is about. And a little bit more like, here's what this made me think about.And And, the, the essay is, I always spend a good amount of time on them. or at least this year I've spent a good amount time[00:19:05] Nathan:On all of them two hours, 20 hours, 200 hours?[00:19:11] Nick:2020 is probably probably closest. a really slow writer. And so, and so, like, I, I do, I mean, I like like write and like re-edit the first paragraph, 20 onto the next And likeI don't either Yeah The the the the the, the, top of the like, it's like a then like the last paragraph gets like one glance and I'm like, God, get this thing from Um don't and I I that is the wrong thing to do, yet, somehow I do that anyway. but, but, so, so those, those posts, they tend to get, of. You know, time and care. and then what'll happen is sometimes the, the ones that are like the link roundups, like will, will be very spiky.And I I'll spend, you know, that's, that's a little bit more like a three hour thing, um or four hours or something like that. and yeah, so, and then, and then I had, I had a, a, something that I was doing when I was interviewing folks, I call it the key ring where it was like a pretty structured interview that I would do where I asked the same questions over and over again.That was, that was fun. It, it, it started taking a long time to like do the back and forth. And so I'm putting that on pause for the moment. I may pick it back up again. those are fun just cause you can, you can feature someone that, that you like and get a chance to just and hang out It's kinda like[00:20:40] Nathan:Yeah. Those are always interesting to me. Cause I, I think about that on this podcast of asking the same questions, which I know New, I riff on the questions too or elementBut if you did, in theory, if you're like, did you grow from a hundred subscribers to a thousand subscribers in your newsletter?And you asked that to every single person, then you could compile that over 40 episodes or 40 newsletters or whatever. like, Hey, here's a guide on how to do it. And like, I pulled it from a whole bunch of sources. So that part of like standardized questions intrigues me. don't love it the live, know, version of a or newsletter where it's like, okay, it's too formulaic.People have done super well with us formulaic, like, John Lee Dumas, who did the Podcast entrepreneur on fire. Like he went all out. He was like, this will be 20 minute episodes, we're going to of release one a day, seven days a week and like works for him. I have no desire to do that, you[00:21:36] Nick:Totally[00:21:38] Nathan:Yeah, I don't know. you think about the repurposing side of content like that, or is it more just about the, the upfront.[00:21:45] Nick:I'm at repurposing and, and I, it's something that I, have like a psychological hangup about it. Like I always kind of feel like I need to be just like moving on to the next thing. The next thing, like I've, I've tried like going back and like, be like, oh, I should mind this thing for some, some tweets.And it always feels weird to do. And like, I want to write my Roundup, but I think, I think what I've just recognized as. Another reason why I write the newsletter is like, I want an excuse to have interesting new thoughts each month. I want essentially a performance, right. Where like, we're like, there is a moment where like, if I, if I hadn't been like reading and thinking each month, like, there is a moment that it will, that I will be embarrassed if I don't do that.And like that, that's the way I think about the newsletter. And so, and so repurposing content would be something it's almost like an admission of defeat. which, which I don't is is other people should think but that's an area of my head. And so, and so I think it just like, I need to be onto doing the next thing.There's a bunch of stuff where like, I would love to, I love ways to use the archives, my newsletter better. I think actually like stuff like this is a fun way to do it. Like through a articles and I was like, oh, there's there's stuff I can, I can reference from those. Um but it's it's, it's tough.[00:23:05] Nathan:That makes sense. Okay. So let's talk cadence for a second because this is one of the most popular, common, I don't know, questions that I get from people starting newsletters. Is there, like it should be daily right now, weekly, monthly, twice a month. Can I just do quarterly? Can I grow an audience for the quarterly newsletter?You've settled on twice a month? What was the thought that went into that? And, and what's your present cons on, on that particular.[00:23:33] Nick:I think. I mean, one of the weird things, which I'm like, I don't think it's just me, but like, like, it was like, when you, when you release a newsletter issue, like you naturally lose subscribers, but like, like, like people are reminded that like, they're like, know you have yeah You have keys to their inbox and they're like, like, why why did I let this And so and so like and so ideally like that, you know what I mean, then that's gonna have a rude awakening for, I think, I think people who are like, oh, this, this thing just goes on autopilot. but, but you need something that like is going to generate more new subscribers than it will lose subscribers because I'm a slow writer, like my, my ability to write something that I think is going to generate new subscribers is like twice a month. And like, and, and, if, and if I was, you know, Paki and Mario there, I don't know how fast they are, but like they are, they're dedicated.They can crank out some ungodly number of words, you know, once a week, twice a week, which is super impressive. And I think if I was them, I would do that. And like, you know, I, I love still like Seth Godin writes, like, you know, I feel like he writes every day. And I think so I think if you're, if you're capable of doing that, like, and, and, and doesn't lose subscribers, then like do it and set an appointment.And I think all those things are really nice, but for me, it's like, how do I make sure that like, one it's kinda, it's kinda manageable with a, with like a full-time job, which is the way I've been doing it for a long time. Right. and need to, I think, um you know, there, there are, there are weirdnesses of having a newsletter, any full-time job at the same time.And one of those is like, You are publishing, like if your hobby was sea kayaking, right? Like, like you could do that with no one knowing that you were doing it. Right. And like, and, and there's, there's nothing weird about that. Or like running a marathon or something like that. like it's clearly the thing you're doing on the side, writing a newsletter is like, it's it's knowledge work that is like akin to, to, type of work that you might do in an office Right Coding[00:25:41] Nathan:Marketing copywriting, whatever your your day job[00:25:44] Nick:A hundred percent. And like, and like, if you're putting that out on LinkedIn, like, you know, your managers managers are seeing it and like, and so there's, there's just like, like doing that every day would be, a weird would feel weird to me even if, even if no one else felt weird about and so, and so I feel like twice a month it feels, feels good to me.It's also, it also just like keeps me excited to keep, to keep at it versus making feel like it's like a daily or weekly chore. And I have like a day off, I have a week off in between so that I can like, you know, spend the weekend, not writing if I want to, which is nice.[00:26:23] Nathan:Yeah. I like the idea of timing it to your, like your cadence as a writer. What advice would you have to someone who's in that position of, building audience on the side there, maybe they're doing it secretly at first where they're like awkward about it's this may maybe self promotional, but, but at some point, if you get to any scale right. will either you'll tell people at work about it or they'll find out about it in some way, hopefully be supportive, but I don't know. What advice do you give to someone who's in that[00:26:54] Nick:First, acknowledge that there is weirdness to it. Like there, are, like there are inherent trade-offs to everything and like, and like there is there's weirdness and if, and if you're your, like the, the company I've been working for Guild, like they, like everyone has been more than supportive at it, but, of the, the work and like, but I still have a weird complex about it.You know, I think part of the reason I ended up getting the job was because of, because of the newsletter, some of the stuff I publish of like, you know, shaped our marketing strategy. So there were things where like, I've tried to do things in my writing where my employer benefits from them.Like, you know, whenever I talk about work a lot and whenever I talk about hiring, I mentioned Guild's hiring, Like there, there are, there are things that I do to just try to like, make sure that it still feels worth the company's Weill. And also, like, I think, I think I try to bring in ID.Like I try to have ideas that are useful to what I do at work. so I I wrote this, this piece on, platform branding, which was all about, companies that essentially used their employees to build audiences that, also benefit the companyAnd like, you know, we, ended up using that strategy at Guild which, which was, which was cool.And like that ended up being the strategy doc to some degree, around it, which was cool. And so so so, there's there, there's like ways that you can. think um you bring that in that that are, that valuable. And so I try to sort of look for those things. I, but I think, you know, acknowledged right.That there's, good writing is vulnerable and sometimes it's weird to be vulnerable in front of your colleagues. and, and like it's naturally an attention seeking activity. And if like, if like there's someone at work feels weird about you, like, will be, you know, something that they can talk about, the proverbial water cooler about like, you know, why, why you're not doing your job and you're, you're off writing these letters So so there's there there's weirdness, but like, I think if you can make, if you can allow your company to benefit from the audience you are growing, I think that tends to be a pretty good fit[00:29:12] Nathan:What that made me think of is basically it's going to accelerate or, magnify, whatever someone already thinks of you. So for example, if someone already thinks, like, I don't know, next kind of. he just doesn't contribute that much. Like is he even working half the time then if they publishing once a week, then they're like, see proof of what I already thought. if like the executive at the company is like, Nick is one of the best hires we've ever made. Oh. And look now he's like publishing and rhinos. Like he's a thought leader as well. Like whatever they think is just going to accelerate more. And so maybe it's looking what reputation you already have.[00:29:51] Nick:A hundred percent and it's like, it's like, I mean, the way I see it, and this is kind of what I wrote about in the platform, branding thing is like, I actually think that, having a bunch of employees who are, in a creator type role, um it's like underdeveloped marketing channel. Like you essentially, you have these people who have.Hey, like, I'm going to, going to take my scarcest asset my time give it to this company. and and and now I'm going to build relationships with, with all of these thousands of people who, who listen to these ideas and like, and like that sort of just gives positive energy to the company. So, so actually, like when you compare it, even to like a, a side project that you're coding nights and weekends, I actually think, I think companies should be really supportive of, of, of kind of audience building on the side because it really can benefit them but, but people naturally have a, there's there's a weird feeling about it. And so, and so you have to like, especially as a company, You know, like our, our CEO is, is, is really good at building her own audience on LinkedIn. And I think that gives everyone else some permission to like, you know write vulnerable and things like that.So I think, but I think it, it is, it is a really important thing to be able to have this kind of a group of people who are increasing the company's sort of surface area in Serendip.[00:31:23] Nathan:Yep. I like that. I've wondered about doing something like that for ConvertKit. We have a handful of people on the team who are very prolific creators, for the two myself and then, our creative director, Charlie, frankly, she has like followers on YouTube and a popular channel and all of that.There's a handful of other people who have podcasts and are, are active on Twitter. Our product managers are quite active when you talk to them about things related to ConvertKit, you know, they're like active with customers, but I haven't, or we haven't taken this approach like fast or on deck, or I'm trying to think who else does it, but, but these companies where they're like, okay, there's 15 of us and we're all going to.Become Twitter famous, you know, or start our thing and we'll all drive back. Is it a strategy that you think works well?[00:32:17] Nick:The, the best example of this actually think is, I think on-deck did it, did it really has done it really well on Twitter Um I think gong is actually probably my favorite example. Um especially from a B2B what they do is like is all of their salespeople are out there, like posting content on LinkedIn, but it's not like how great gong is.Almost has nothing to do with gum. It's like you know, an a I'm I'm I'm grinding today. Can't wait to get off for the weekend. It's like, it's like, it, it, it sort of, embodying kind of this, this, like this, the sales lifestyle. Right. And, and, and the, the engagement they get is, is crazy.Right. And like, and that, the thing is, if, so, so there's sort of like, there's kind of like, you can build lifestyle influencers among your employees Right But you can also. Like this idea of building up someone who is, who is a, I know this is kind of a gross word, but thought leader in the, in the, space you're, you're excited about.People kind of come to them, they build affinity with them. And I think you, you can build individuals as marketing channels where like starts out where like someone's reading your posts on LinkedIn. maybe that person hosts a, a kind of invite only webinar for, for the people who engage most of them on LinkedIn.So, so then you're building sort of deeper affinity towards that person. And, and as, as you go down the sales funnel um like marketing and sales, you actually transfer that affinity over to the company as, as like they get into the sale process. from kind of a B2B side, but like, I think you can do it also from a B to C.[00:33:49] Nathan:Do you think that a company like gone. Hired people are good at that and encouraged it, or do you think they like had the people that they hired and said like, okay everyone, this is now what we're doing. a playbook, here's best practices. Here's a slack channel where you can talk about what's working.What's not, but like we're this now. Get on board.[00:34:11] Nick:This is, would be a hundred percent pure speculation. What is, is someone at gong started doing this one of their salespeople and started crushing it. And they're, you know, director of marketing was smart enough to. Hey could be doing a lot like, and B, because it's their salespeople who do it, right.A natural incentive to do it. And so, you know, I would imagine they probably brought on a copywriter and said, Hey, if you need help, you know, crafting these posts, like you can do that It's just, it's such a, it's such a virtuous right? It's like, it's like, because of the affinity you build with these individuals it translates to the company.And like it just sends it a bat signal out to other people who are like that, who want to build audiences, that like the company will help you do that. And they will be supportive. And like, and again, if we imagine that like, they're like audience is this long-term career mode, it's just like, it's such a great gift.You can give to your employees for them to leave with like you know, like you leave ConvertKit and you have, you know, a hundred thousand subscribers or 10,000 it's like, or whatever. Right. It's, it's, it's as much of a gift as like the salary you're giving them. It's just, we don't think of it that way.Cause it's, it's a weird thing to think about getting. From your company[00:35:27] Nathan:Yeah. I mean, that's how we've handled it in that we're very in favor of side projects. We want everyone who wants to, like, we're not gonna force it on. But to have a way to be a, a creator on the, on the side and to have some actual reason to use ConvertKit as a customer. Because it's so different when you're the product and like clicking through the happy path to test something and you're like, Hey guys, it works.Then some customers like this is really frustrating. and so that, like, it's a very different, different, I think that it's just interesting. You're absolutely right about people with that. Like, Matt Reglan, who's been on this show before he was at ConvertKit for years. joined when we were like 20,000 a month in revenues like that. when he eventually moved on to his nets, next thing, you know, he built an, a YouTube audience to like 10,000 subscribers at that point. And that was a whole thing that he'd done a lot with skills he learned at ConvertKit a lot with, you know, our creative director, Charlie, like promoting him and just, all right. But like, it still happens even we've got 70 people on the team and we're talking like six are active in this way. I just wonder how much to encourage it versus how much to just say like, Hey, this is an option if you want it, but like you don't push it any more than that[00:36:51] Nick:I mean, I think one of the interesting things, when you think about like the creator economy is like, I think the creator economy can support a lot of people, but the the challenge is like when you're deciding, should I follow this person? there aren't very good moats in the creator economy. And so and so one of the.Few moats you can have is like companies that you've worked for giving you this brand halo. Right And so, and, and, brand from your company sort of, it says this person might be a little more worth following because someone chose them now, does that true You know, don't think so, but like, it at least sends this signal.And so I think, one, like your brand can do that for, for, for your employees, but also like I think there's a. I think just showing that the company will pour fuel on whatever fire you're starting, I think is like, it's, it's one of the best like employee value props. I think a company can have, It's like, it's like, look the life you want to have. Like, we, want to get you there. like, and like, and I think the kind of people who would come work for ConvertKit it should be that they want to do something in the creator space, because you're serving creators that makes a ton That makes a ton of of sense[00:38:10] Nathan:Yeah. And we've definitely had people that we've hired, who are already creators, and that's grown. So it, an interesting world in all the things that you could do to grow. Like a company or growing audience. I'm not sure that that's the one would pick, but you, you see Morning Brew and, and gong in so many of others doing it and it seems to work, know? So[00:38:33] Nick:Yeah Like, I think it works for like, like select companies in select Right. And like, and there's, and there's probably a channel that works under and like the. way you do it for, you know, for Guild where, like we, you know, we really target, um you know, companies with huge employee populations at the very level Like like we wouldn't do that on, on Twitter. Right. Just doesn't make any sense, but like, would we do it on LinkedIn where like, where, you know, C-suite spends an increasing amount of time and we can directly with those individuals and maybe influence that the five to 10 people that, that matter at those companies with like, you know, one post a week.Totally. so, so it just, it kind of depends on like, um I think companies can, can kind of do it at different levels.[00:39:21] Nathan:So that's interesting of the LinkedIn approach, which I think a lot of creators are either all in, on LinkedIn and loving You know, people have built massive lists over there, or they're like, what's that like, I'll hang out in the Instagram, YouTube, Twitters of the world, you know? but if you imagine that B2B world where let's say I'm, I'm working in sales, either as an executive, trying to get big deals done, or, you know, or as a team member, I have a meeting, we have a great conversation.We connect on LinkedIn, you know, we're now an official connection. And now, even though you're not going to buy my thing now, you're like seeing my content every. Week or every few weeks. And then it's like, oh yeah, you're going to buy that thing from Nathan, you know, whatever B2B tool, like starts to come up.And then when I reach out again and you're like, it's not like, oh yeah, it's that one sales rep that I wasted 20 minutes off on with, you know, six months ago. It's like, oh yeah. I feel like we're friends there. I've learned so much, even though it's just been one to many communication.[00:40:25] Nick:I mean, I think the really powerful thing it's like obviously a sales rep is incentivized to promote the product at company they work for So it's like it's product whether it's in a sales call or on LinkedIn like it will not it will not move the needle for any customer.Because it's sort of priced in that That's what they're expecting. But showing that you are an intellectually interesting person who has deep thoughts about the world, who is, who's a smart person. And then the customer making the connection, man, this smart person out of all the places where they could go work has chosen to work here.[00:41:04] Nathan:Right[00:41:05] Nick:Of something, right. There must be something kind of interesting and special there. And so they built of this affinity and comfort and excitement about you and like, and, and then getting on a sales call with you, you're at this just like this nice advantage, right? You're, you're, you're now slightly a celebrity to them.Right Like and, and there's something, you know, like when your, your email or even your company's email then pops up in their inbox, like it's just that much more likely to open that much more interesting. And sometimes it's, it's those, it's those little things on the margin that can make all the difference.And so I think, especially when you're talking like a, like really big enterprise sales, I actually think it's still, a kind of, underrated strategy.[00:41:48] Nathan:Yeah, sense. talk about a, more from the creator side. Cause that was, know, we went more on the platform company side of the which, you know, someone running a company, I am intrigued in that direction, but I'm curious on the, on the creative side, how do you think about that audience as being for your career and that thing that goes with you as you between roles and giving you a future opportunities and all.[00:42:14] Nick:I think it comes to like writing a newsletter.There's basically three reasons. You'd write a personal newsletter and earliest the way I think about it. Like it's either passion, like, you know, I love cooking and like, this is a way I can express that side of me It's it's profit. I want to actually just make some side income or make this into my full income Or it's General advancement.And maybe the relationship building kind of tithing relationship building probably ties into that. but, but in general, like the, I sort of see one things being being like the reason, like for me, at least for a long time, it's probably been advancement. but, certainly the other two are mixed.Like I'm, you know I'm curious about, you know, turning on the profit spigot out of it And like, it certainly like I wouldn't keep doing it if it didn't hit the passion bucket. and so, and so I think that, that, you have to sort of figure out which of those you're doing. I think, I think like if, if what you want to do, I think most people actually are doing it because they do want new opportunities and relationships.I think actually advancement to me is it's actually, the best reason to do it. Um uh over the other two. And, in that world, like, you kind of want to imagine like, okay, Who is, what kind of job do I want, who is the person that I want to be at some point down the road? Who's the gatekeeper that stands in the way of that.Whether it's like, maybe it's I want to publish a book at some point, right. a publisher stands in the way of that. and so what, what gets this publisher excited? Well, either, maybe I'm writing a newsletter for book publishers and this is the industry standard, but like more likely it's like, it's like, Hey, I built this audience that is then really exciting to a publisher.So-so I or, you know, it's, I want to become a senior engineering manager. and so what's going to be exciting to the VP of engineering who is going to interview me. You know, it, it could be that I have an audience full of engineers, who who like are easy to hire, maybe it's that I just like think in a really deep level about this really complicated problem that is really important to them, but it's, it's sort of like, I think having that, kind of magic gatekeeper mind as as not the person you're necessarily writing for all the time, but the, thing you're trying to build up to, that can be a good north star in that direction.If you're doing this, advancement thing, I still don't think you should pick something that doesn't light you up because it's really, you know, it's really hard to keep doing this, week after week when you're grinding it out for some future version of yourself that you know, may may change.I, I think that, that that tends to be a pretty good path.[00:45:10] Nathan:Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me and like networking connection and advancement side of things, I think is one of the best reasons to do. A lot of that. I remember like the first conference that I went to after having a blog and it being such a night and day difference. I wasn't even a speaker at this conference, any of that, but people were like wanting to come up and talk to me because of the articles that I've written you.Whereas like months earlier, you know, pre blog, you go to a conference and I was shy and introverted. Like I didn't talk to anybody. And so I was like, wow, because I published words on the internet. People will now do all the work. Like interesting people will come meet me instead of me having to like put out all the work.This is the best leverage ever on the same way, like podcasts and everything else Write being able to, everyone says the Podcast in there for the audience. It is right. You know, thousands of people will listen to this episode. I am more doing it because I get to meet people like you and Kimberly, who we just had on last week.And right. It's just about meeting people. that's so[00:46:09] Nick:It's like it's like you know, like I think with Podcast, it's crazy because you like appear in somebody's ears. Right. You're like, literally like you're right next to their head, you know And like and it's it's, just like, it's this, it's this wild, like intimate relationship, usually, like I'm listening, you know, on, on two X.So everyone sounds smarter than you than they would were listening to them on one X like it's, it's, it's I think publishing and creating content, especially in a world where like we just live more online where like more of our interactions are, are remote. I think it's, it's a, it's a pretty, it's still sort of an underrated hack, especially in, in your career, right?Like you can, you can do. You know, you, you become inter like instantly, someone who someone wants to take a meeting with and like it's those little, like, sort of marginal decisions, right To like chart the course of your career, right? Like, like, did, did this person meet with you or not? Were they predisposed to like you, before you came in and like, you don't actually know which article is going to hit to make them feel that way, or which Podcast is going to, you know, which Podcast you're going to meet, the person who, you know, might be an ex customer or investor or something like that.But like, there's just such a powerful, you know, with that[00:47:26] Nathan:I think one of my favorite examples a people using an interview show or, you know, interviews in general to break into an industry Harry Stebbings, who does 20 minute VC, because I don't know how old he was when he started it, but like 17, maybe I'm not[00:47:42] Nick:Totally[00:47:43] Nathan:nd he's like, I want to break into the world of venture capital and, you know, interviewing all the biggest names at first people were saying yes to him, probably because of his hustle, because he was young.They're just like, sure. I'll take a chance on this kid on, your 20 minute.And[00:47:59] Nick:Now love I love people who have like, a, a 10 step plan for their career. Maybe you just, you just wanted to create a podcast. It was sort of like,[00:48:11] Nathan:Right[00:48:12] Nick:Doing this for fun, but like, not a ton of people have, have a plan. Right. like, like most people are just sort of doing stuff, but like, if you like sit down and just kind of think about it for like, like 20 minutes and you're like, who might, I want to be like, who does that person like, like what would make me credible in that person's eyes?Like, like how could I, you know, do that thing now. So that in two or three years, like, like Harry's, I've been such a good example. Like, I, I think there, there are so many people who, who like, if they, they sat and gave that like 10 minutes and turn Twitter off, like you can just, like, you can do a lot of, you know, good, good strategy there.[00:48:52] Nathan:Well, I think can do it as a method to break into any business. So if we were like, know if you and I were 18 years old and we're like, wouldn't be in the music business or even right. You wanted to go into screenwriting. you with what you know now, and you and I were brainstorming how to get 18 year old you into like screenwriting, we would probably suggest starting a podcast and you interview all the screenings. In some format and it wouldn't result in work, but then you'd imagine we have this network and this work would come from the network and you're like, no direct connection, but then there's a ton of indirect connections that wouldn't have happened without it.[00:49:31] Nick:You know, it's kind of a similar thing. We talked we've dragged them at Twitter at the beginning. Right. Twitter does this service for people that gives them like a feeling of prestige. Right. And like, and, and what you're basically doing is like, it's like, you're giving an audience to people who don't have time to build one for themselves.And like, you know, most of the people who are listening to this podcast are people who are building audiences in, in some way shape or form, but like most people don't do that. Right And and so, and so you can find all sorts of people who are who are just like all the time, who like, would love to sort of rent someone else's audience to build themselves up.And so like, and so you can be then 18 and it's a total hack to be able to sort of bring on this screenwriter, this music industry, executive, this, you know, a VC. Right. And it's just, it's[00:50:23] Nathan:Right It made me realize another person on the ConvertKit team who does this really well is ISA Adney. Who's our storyteller. she used to teach all of our webinars and workshops and, and, is branched into working on like brand development sides as he writes a lot of and else, but her personal audience, let me take a step back.If you talk to her, she's like, know this person, or whoever at Disney or that kind of thing who worked on, you know, and just like the amount of people that she knows in the world of storytelling and film and everything else, you're like, how do you know all these people? like, oh, I interviewed them for my newsletter, you know?And you're just like, wait, what? And it's like, I was going to say cartoonists, but like illustrators from, from will like draw her a birthday card. can tell us just for her, you know? And you're like, how, and, and it just comes from this exact thing of like, oh, I just interviewed them on my newsletter, which is a fantastic newsletter, but it's not like they came on it because she's wildly famous.It's that[00:51:26] Nick:It's incredible. And I like there, there's a couple other people I've seen who have like, who, who sort of, they have their, their, their full-time job, but like, on the side, right? Like, Liz Bostonian, someone I've known for awhile and interviewed, and she, she wrote a book called no hard feelings about emotions at work.She's about to publish her second one and like the way she's just like, she's known by, by all of these people at all these different companies that like her company would be the perfect company to sell in, to sell into. you know, it's just, it's just there. There's. There's so many good things that can come a bit.I think one thing I'd advise to like, w going back to like this, how do you balance a, like a, like a newsletter and a full-time career is like don't work for any company that doesn't value it because because like you know, clearly there are places like Guild, like ConvertKit like there there's so many different companies where like you can go where like, they will appreciate what you're doing.And if you can, if you can, like, ideally, like, let's say you love to write about cooking, right. If you can find a company where like, that is like, like, especially like building an audience around cooking, like it's, you know, a dishware company or whatever it is, like finding that right place for not just you, but your publication, a really underrated thing, because it just makes everything so much smoother to find that right.Manager find that. Right. you know,[00:52:52] Nathan:Yeah. That makes sense. If it's an uphill battle, like find another, another place where that's actually a asset.[00:52:59] Nick:Someone will like it.[00:53:00] Nathan:Yeah, exactly. So maybe before we wrap up, let's talk about the growth side. Cause everyone's thinking about, okay, I have my newsletter and it has 100 subscribers or 500. How do I grow it to that next tier So I'm curious, what are some of the things that have worked for you on, adding 100 or 500 or a thousand subscribers at a time?[00:53:19] Nick:Twitter Twitter. You, you, you can use Twitter.[00:53:22] Nathan:Yeah[00:53:22] Nick:It's It's frought in many ways you can also use LinkedIn. I actually think LinkedIn is, an underrated place to do it. Like it's to me, it's not as stressful to write a LinkedIn post as it is to write. A tweet, it's a little stressful, cause it's like, it's like, definitely definitely to your company And it's a place where you're in professional domain, but especially if your newsletter is somewhat professional, then I think, I think LinkedIn can be a really good place for it. and a little bit less of a pressure-filled way to do it. I probably one of the underrated things now is like, you know, I look at how many discord servers I'm suddenly in, like in in you know, months and like, I think those are probably good places to like promote.I don't think it's, I don't think you can in communities, it's harder to just be promotional. You need to sort of have earned it by, by building relationships. And so, but I think like, you know, I'm, I'm in a writing group called foster, right? Where, where like where, you know that they help with editing and like, and like everyone's sort of publishes their stuff in there, but like that's a great place to like, to, to sort of build a following, especially sort of early on.Obviously you can do things like hit Reddit, hit hacker news, you know, Reddit, I think I've been banned from like, you know, 20 different subreddits for, you know a just posting a blog post, which seemed to me. But, um and then hacker news, right? You, you, you never know. And, and, you know, getting to the top means you're going to get barraged with terrible comments, but, I think ultimately though you kind of want something you can build, right.And this is, this is the, this is the challenge with Twitter, right? It's like, it's like, there is a weirdness about Twitter, but. Building an audience on Twitter Like it's a great top of funnel for a newsletter, and same way with LinkedIn. And so it's hard to totally steer away from those things. I think one thing I'd to try and toy with once I figure out the monetization piece, of my newsletter is I'd like to try paid ads.And there's this weird discomfort with it with it. if what you value is value is, having an audience and people to write to and you want to grow that audience, I actually think it doesn't need to be that literally every person you painstakingly gathered with your blood, sweat, and tears, right.It's it's I think there's, there's other stuff that you can try, but you obviously don't want to be throwing a lot of money down the drain on, building an audience[00:55:53] Nathan:YeahI've, I've done paid ads with good results of four. I have a local newsletter called from Boise, is just for the Boise area. And in the last month we actually went to a thousand subscribers and we doubled to a little over 2000 subscribers, almost entirely with ads. So like no ads to a thousand and, ads worked well, you know, and it helps to have the hyper-local targeting.So I was in the same boat of like, hadn't played with it before. And, you know, at, I think we paid between $2 and two 50 a subscriber,[00:56:25] Nick:Facebook.[00:56:26] Nathan:Yeah, Facebook and Instagram. So we'll play with it more. What are you thinking maybe we'll end on this question. What do you thinking for on the newsletter?What are you paid? Is it a A A book? What other things are coming up?[00:56:39] Nick:It took me a while to find something I was comfortable with on modernization paid, never, appealed that much to me. just because there, there are some people who I like I will pay for their ideas, but like, overwhelmed with Content. that like, usually when I'm paying for, for, for, for a newsletter, it's because I really liked the person, like their, their, just their style of analysis.I can't get anywhere else. but, but, but the competitive dynamics of newsletter sort of, to me, like they'll, they'll kind of always be someone who something close to what you do for free. And so, and so that, that always kinda, didn't appeal to me as much. Like I think of it as like, This audience, that you're kind of building affinity with over time and like, and can you, ideally sort of find, build something or find something that's going to be really valuable to them.So I actually, literally just this morning, teamed up with this, this company called palette, to, I swear, this, this, this time it was not planned. It just, it just happened nicely, to a team at this company called pallet in pallets, been sort job boards with a bunch of and I actually worked with them on this, this kind of beta product that they're working on, which is this idea of talent collectives. And so what we're doing is like, it's like basically job searching really sucks. Like you're filling out tons of applications. You are, waiting for a long time to hear back from companies.If you are highly desirable, you're getting a lot of recruiter spam and they're just like barraging you. so we're going to do, is, is put basically just an air table form where you can say, Hey, like, this is who I am. This is the kind of role I'm looking for. pallet has this, this, all these companies that they are so, so they're going to basically, send people and you can be anonymous if you want to all sorts of stuff, but they're to their partner companies and then and then they'll send you sort of the intro request, like, Hey, you know, do you want to, do you want to chat with ConvertKit right.And, and, and if you do right, we'll, we'll make the intro, but like, you don't have to worry about our recruiter reaching out to you because they've, they've said they won't do that. so yeah, I think it's cool. you know, if, if, if any of the folks listening to this are like, exploring new job opportunity.We'd love you to come check it out. I think it'll be really neat. I think it'll solve a challenge that a lot of people are facing. For me it felt really native. It felt like I didn't want to do a job board because I don't know these companies. I'm doing a newsletter about careers, and it felt really important that I'm sending people to the right place.I said, “Hey, if you sign up for this, and you take one call from a company, I'll do a 30 minute career coaching session with you.” Even though, I'll get paid some commission, if the person goes to one of these companies, I will really try to give them the best advice for them, because that's what I promised to readers.When you're thinking about monetization, it's like find something that feels native, and not weird to your audience. I think sometimes that can be a pure paid subscription, but you can be creative in different stuff.[00:59:51] Nathan:Yeah, I think that's good. Let's leave it there. I'm super excited to see what comes on the monetization side. It's probably the coolest thing about newsletters and audiences that you can monetize different ways.So, where should people go to follow you and follow your writing, and see more about what you're up to?[01:00:07] Nick:You can follow where I have a conflicted relationship, where there are days I will post a tweet, tweet threads, and the next day I'll feel very ashamed of it, but that's @Nick_deWilde. Then the better place to get my thoughts, I would say, is JungleGym.Substack.com.At some point I should probably switch that to ConvertKit, but yeah, that's another time. We'd love that, and thank you so much for having me. This has been so fun.[01:00:42] Nathan:Yeah, It's been a great conversation and, thanks for coming on, and we'll talk soon.[01:00:47] Nick:Awesome, Nathan.

In this episode, we talk with Dickie Bush, creator of the successful online writing community Ship30for30. Dickie Bush is a macro investor, portfolio manager, and creator of Dickie's Digest, a newsletter focused on growth principles, building in public, and enabling full-stack internet creators. He's gives writers and creators tools, resources, processes, and mindsets to grow personally and professionally. We talked about Dickie's early participation on Twitter (curating and summarizing 30 podcast episodes in 30 days), the origins of Ship30for30, how he's running and scaling an internet business, and how he packages together his growing expertise into free and paid products. Links:  Dickie's website: https://www.dickiebush.comDickie's Twitter: https://twitter.com/dickiebushDickie's newsletter ("Dickie's Digest"): https://dickiebush.substack.comShip30for30: https://www.ship30for30.comDickie's tweet about credibility and specificity: https://twitter.com/dickiebush/status/1450448559984283656?s=20"The T-Shaped Information Diet" by Nick DeWilde: https://junglegym.substack.com/p/the-t-shaped-information-diet

We've been on a bit of an audience building kick lately in our conversations with Dickie Bush about Twitter, with Tori Dunlap about TikTok. Today you'll meet a long-time listener of the show who built her audience on Facebook. Chantal Lavergne is the founder of FunSensoryPlay.com, which started as a Facebook page in early 2020 — and that's important because that's years after the supposed death of organic Facebook page reach. Since then she's grown the page to nearly 80,000 followers using some specific and proven engagement strategies, and turned that following into a business with multiple revenue streams. Tune in to The Side Hustle Show interview to learn: how Chantal came up with the idea to start a sensory fun Facebook page how she has grown her audience so fast by creating an “ecosystem” the multiple income streams she's created for her business Full show notes

Dickie Bush is a macro investor and the creator of Ship 30 for 30, a community of writers developing a writing habit in 30 days. He is passionate about providing writers and creators with the tools, resources, processes, and mindsets required to find points of leverage and achieve exponential growth—both personally and professionally. In this episode we talk about Dickie's humble newsletter beginnings, his experimentation with Twitter, the growth of Ship 30 for 30, and why listening to feedback loops has helped him turn the flywheel of growth so quickly. Join Ship 30 for 30 and save $20 Follow Dickie on Twitter Join #Tweet100 Full transcript and show notes *** LISTENER SUPPORT Join our community on Facebook Support this show through Buy Me A Coffee *** SPONSORS Try Podia and save 15% for life as a Creative Elements listener Start your free trial of SavvyCal and get your first month free using promo code ELEMENTS Get a free month of Blinkist Premium Try Grammarly for free and save 20% on Grammarly Premium *** ABOUT JAY CLOUSE Subscribe to my weekly newsletter Find me on Twitter Find me on Instagram Enroll in my course on podcasting, Podcast Like The Pros *** PODGLOMERATE NETWORK This show is a part of the Podglomerate network, a company that produces, distributes, and monetizes podcasts. We encourage you to visit the website and sign up for our newsletter for more information about our shows, launches, and events. For more information on how The Podglomerate treats data, please see our Privacy Policy.  Since you're listening to Creative Elements, we'd like to suggest you also try other Podglomerate shows surrounding entrepreneurship, business, and careers like Rocketship.fm and Freelance to Founder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Today's guest has gone from zero to almost 50k followers in the last 12 months and has turned that newfound attention into a 6-figure online business. This is impressive in itself, but what's even more impressive about this story is that Dickie Bush has built his audience on Twitter. You know, that social media platform that's always just ... been there. One of several platforms that I'd kind of written off. In fact, in 8 years and 450 episodes, we've never done a dedicated conversation on Twitter as an audience-building platform. Dickie has been a frequently-requested guest over the last few months. He's a former college athlete turned portfolio analyst. But on the side, he's the creator of Ship30for30.com, a cohort-based online course that helps you build an online writing habit. Dickie opens up enrollment for Ship 30 for 30 every 6 weeks, and in the last enrolment, he had 476 students paying $350 each. That's $166,600 in gross revenue. If you've been focusing on YouTube, Instagram, or TikTok, you may be missing out. In this episode, Dickie explains why Twitter is the perfect platform for quickly building an engaged audience. Tune in to The Side Hustle Show interview to learn: why Dickie uses Twitter and says it's the best platform for building an audience how he writes tweets that go viral and attract followers why he opted to build a cohort-based course over evergreen content Full show notes

Topics Discussed: Starting a daily writing habit Ship30for30 founding Managing community Thinking about alumni communities Iterating cohort-to-cohort Relevant links:- Ship30for30- Reshaping Education PodcastKeep up with us:Ish Baid, Founder & CEO of VirtuallyWill Mannon, Course Director of Forte Academy

What could you accomplish if you wrote 300 words a day every day for 30 days? Nicolas Cole and his business partner, Dickie Bush, put together the "Ship 30 for 30" challenge where they encourage writers to do just that.  It's an excellent challenge if you want to tap into the power of small daily wins for your writing.Nicolas is the author of several books, including The Art and Business of Online Writing. I started our conversation by asking Nicolas to explain his rather interesting backstory, because, like me, he was a gamer back in the day.In this episode, we discuss:How Nicolas transitioned from gamer to writerHis advice for new writers wanting to be readMaking money from your writing by selling it as a serviceBalancing running a business with writingSuccess stories from writers using the "30 for 30" challengeResources:QuoraMediumWattpadNicolas ColeNicolas on TwitterNicolas on QuoraSupport the show (https://www.patreon.com/becomeawritertoday)

#146: There's a brand new way of learning that's emerging that I'm super excited about. I've discovered it in just the last few months and I had to share it. Cohort-based courses is a lame name for a whole new digital way of growth that I'm convinced is going to explode.  Read or Subscribe to my new weekly leadership articles my new website :http://www.russhill.meCheck out my new course called The Leader Playbook: The Decide to Lead Course.  Find out more here:  https://gumroad.com/russhillConnect with me on LinkedIn or to send me a DM:https://www.linkedin.com/in/russleads/Tap here to check out my first book, Decide to Lead, on Amazon. Thank you so much to the thousands of you who have already purchased it!--About the podcast:The Culture Hacks Podcast with Russ Hill is for leaders of teams who want to grow and accelerate their results. In each episode, Russ Hill shares what he's learned consulting executives on their organization culture. Subscribe to get two new episodes every week. To connect with Russ about what he does with company culture message him on LinkedIn!

Dickie Bush (@dickiebush) is a writer and the creator of Ship 30 for 30. By day, he manages money. By night, he writes and runs an online writing community – Ship 30 for 30. In this conversation, we spoke about how Dickie's life has changed in the past six months since he first came on the podcast, Tim Ferriss mentioning him in his newsletter, and Dickie's mom.

Dickie Bush is a full time Portfolio Manager based in New York City. He is a graduate of Princeton, where he received a degree in Financial Engineering and played on the football team.Dickie writes a weekly newsletter called Dickie's Digest where he shares thoughts and links on growth of all kinds, including personal, intellectual, physical, network, economic, and other forms of growth.Dickie is probably best known as the founder of Ship 30 for 30, an online cohort based course where he teaches writers how to write better, grow their audience, and show up consistently.In this episode, you'll learn: How Dickie runs Ship 30 for 30 How to build an online writing habit How to shorten your feedback loops to improve your writing Tactical tips to build a following on Twitter Links & Resources James Clear The Art and Business of Online Writing by Nicolas Cole 30 Days to Better Writing by Sean McCabe ConvertKit Jack Butcher Tim Ferriss The Nathan Barry Show 031: Mario Gabriele – From Lifelong Obsession to Thriving Business David Perell Andrew Wilkinson Sahil Bloom Julian Shapiro Dickie Bush's Links Ship 30 for 30 Substack: dickiebush.substack.com Twitter: @dickiebush Episode TranscriptDickie: [00:00:00] One that accelerated my growth, every morning, Monday through Friday at 9:00 AM, you'll get a question to reflect on where a lot of the replies become interesting pieces of advice. Right? I'm playing with one right now that I said, “Give the best advice you can in just two words.” It had 3,000 replies.The Twitter algorithm. When people respond to something, it shows up in more feeds.Nathan: [00:00:27] In this episode, I talked to Dickie Bush, who works in the finance industry, but has this wildly successful side hustle teaching writers how to write better, grow their audience and show up consistently, called Ship 30 for 30. This episode we get into a ton of great stuff, how to grow your Twitter list, how to stay accountable.We deep dive more than any other episode on the Twitter algorithm, what works, what doesn't, some of it is pure speculation. Some of it are things that have been pretty verifiable. There's a lot of good stuff. I think you're going to enjoy it. I particularly love how Dickie has put together these flywheels that he's refining each time he does a new cohort of the course. There's a ton of momentum here. He's just absolutely going to blow up. And it's really, really impressive. So with that, let's dive in. Dickie, welcome to the show.Dickie: [00:01:15] I appreciate you having me. Look forward to it. Nathan: [00:01:17] All of our listeners are very active on Twitter. And you can't be active on Twitter in the circles that you and I run in and not see your Twitter growth. I see Ship 30 for 30 growing, like crazy everyone, you know, posting essays and all of that. Before we dive into all of that, there's something that I actually didn't realize until prepping for this episode yesterday.And that's that everything we see online is just a side hustle for you. Can you talk about, at a high level, what you do day to day, and then, how you balance that with your wildly successful side hustle. Dickie: [00:01:58] Sure. So what I do, full-time, I'm a macro portfolio manager and the way I kind of describe it as my day job is to predict the global economy and how that unfolds. And there's only so many charts and numbers you can look at on kind of a daily basis from seven or 8:00 AM to five or six. And so my writing online and kind of journey, and that has been just a, a way to kind of step back from kind of the madness of, of markets and economies and things like that.And explore just little interests to me. And that has evolved relatively quickly, over the last, you know, nine months.Nathan: [00:02:38] Oh, I'm glad you said the nine months time. I, cause that that's roughly what I've noticed as well. What was that inflection point where you decided you're going to really focus on building an online audience and, you know, start writing online?Dickie: [00:02:54] I guess a little bit of a backstory it's probably longer than nine months. So I started writing online in January of 2020. With just a weekly newsletter. So I came into 2020 saying, I'm consuming all these podcasts and books and articles and just interested in learning. But my notes would end up in the back of a Notion notebook kind of into the void where, you know, there was no upside.And so I started kind of exploring, how can I start to have a forcing function to learn more about the things I'm doing? So I just started writing a weekly newsletter. I had seen people do it and you just curation and et cetera. So that was kind of my foray into it. And I did that for about 35, 40 weeks, and started writing on a blog, exploring dabbling in some things that I was interested in, but in July, I'd probably published 30 or 40 newsletters in a row, a couple of blog posts, but just felt like I was kind of stuck and had so many ideas that I wanted to explore, but didn't have the medium to do it. When my feedback loop was slow, I was on the weekly cadence, but it was inconsistent, et cetera. And so coming into August, I started just tweeting more and getting through these ideas. And I'm sure we'll talk more about Twitter. It's kind of an idea refinery, right? You can just get these ideas clear the junk that's in your head to find out what you really want to talk about.And so that was, you know, that was kind of the inflection point was when I made a new Twitter account in August and said, “I'm going to start to share these ideas that I think I want to talk about.”"Nathan: [00:04:27] As much as I want to ask there, but you said you made a new Twitter account. You just started more from scratch and kept, you know, forked off of an old one. What did you do there?Dickie: [00:04:34] So that one, I had a Twitter I've had Twitter since 2014, 2015, you know, big lifetime, just been involved with the product and loved it. And. There was a little bit of, okay, I'm going to pivot this. I had four or 500 followers at the time, had done some kind of thread curation and things like that. But my follower graph, I think was a little bit not damaged, but Twitter's algorithm.If you went on my account and said, who are this person similar to? It was all inactive accounts from high school. And so I just wanted a fresh slate too, kind of start over. And so I made the new account and said, Hey, I'm making a new account when I kind of reset this thing. And so I didn't also have like tweets from high school and things like that in there.so I just started fresh and it felt like a good way to do it.Nathan: [00:05:19] So you made a new account. Did you slide over like, you know, swap the same username or is it a different username?Dickie: [00:05:26] I swapped the username. So cause that one, it's just thinking like, I didn't want to lose it. So yeah. I changed the username on the old one, made the new one and then change back. So.Nathan: [00:05:34] Yeah. And you have that, that brief 45 second window where you'reDickie: [00:05:38] Yeah. And like sprinting, I'm like, Oh, there's hundreds of people who are about to steal it. Yeah. They're just counting down.Nathan: [00:05:42] So that's the first time I've heard the, like the Twitter algorithm or this idea of a damaged account.Can you talk about that more?Dickie: [00:05:51] It's a total hunch. Right. But now if you go on my account and it might've just been, I didn't have kind of that breakthrough or followers, but it was. You know, now when you go on my account that people, similar to, or other people in kind of our Twitter sphere. Right. Whereas in the old one, I was engaging in that community, but it was just inactive.So I, you know, I have no proof to back it up, but I was able to kind of grow what, sell more quickly right after.Nathan: [00:06:22] Yeah, that's interesting. And I wonder how that plays into it. But I could totally see that of Twitter being like, I don't know, the guy's just tweeted about random stuff for five or six years. Like, what do you want me to recommend them for? And then you're like, no, no, no, this stuff. And you're like, okay.But that's like 2% of what you've ever tweeted. Yeah. Got it. So, Dickie: [00:06:42] Yeah, there's something there, but I don't know.Nathan: [00:06:44] I'd love for someone to run some experiments on that and see if, how much that matters. But, one takeaway from it that I appreciate is you didn't just say like, Oh, here's a new thing that I'm doing.Let me lean that direction. You said, no, no, no. This is something that I'm taking seriously. We're going to go all in on. And really you didn't, you weren't attached to the sunk costs. You know, or like I, but I I've already 500 subscribers, then I'm going to throw that away. It was just the approach of like 500 is not going to take that long to getDickie: [00:07:16] It was almost like an acceptance of an inconvenient truth because I did have that sunk cost for like two months of like, Oh, I have 500 followers. And when I made the new one and said, Oh, I'm making this new one, like 45 came over. Right. So, so many of those were inactive accounts as well.So it was kind of this mental thing of like, Oh no, I can't give this up. But it was clear that I really hadn't done as much as I thought.Nathan: [00:07:38] So that's interesting. Cause that's the, you know, the person With an email list that they're proud of, but with a terrible open rate and they're still like, I have 10,000 people on my list and you're like, yeah, but you have a 5% open rate, but you don't have 10,000 people. And they're like, no, I have 10,000, you know?And it's just like, you got to accept the reality and realize that. Now you've got 500 people that actually are paying attention to you.Dickie: [00:08:00] Yeah, there's, there's tons of, like. Goodhart's law or just whatever, whatever it is, where you have this indicator of like, Oh, I have 10,000 email X, but now you're, you're spot on.Nathan: [00:08:10] Yeah. So how many subscribers did you have, like last July when you sort of started to take Twitter and writing more seriously or just before that?Dickie: [00:08:17] On my newsletter, I had about 200 and that was over 40 or 35 weeks. And, you know, I probably signed up about half of them. And I, I hadn't done much on the growth side. I just was kind of writing it and saying, now this is fun. It's a forcing function. What have you? And, I started that Twitter account really with about a hundred.So relatively small, to start.Nathan: [00:08:43] You know, at that point it sounds like you, you transformed it from like journaling. Here's what I learned all of that to actually focused on, on growth. Is that right?Dickie: [00:08:54] Right. It was, I started to just, I, I took a look at all these things, what I, to basically done in the nine months leading up to that was built up this idea of a blog post in my head where it's like, Oh, I have to sit down and write this thing and edit it and get feedback on it. And so it just had this super slow feedback loop.And I had this massive list of ideas, like, Oh, all these different areas I wanted to explore, but no medium to do it. And so what Twitter became was just, I could share these one-off ideas, Write, feel like, do a little bit of writing, make these small bets on if things resonated. And then at the same time to kind of have just more eyeballs on there.So I wasn't publishing into the void. I took what I was doing on my newsletter. you know, Podcast curation and started just summarizing the ones I was listening to. Right. And people appreciated that it made them more digestible. So it was kind of this, this, value add while I was exploring these more ideas.Nathan: [00:09:51] Yeah. And that's interesting. I think, I probably do the same thing of like building up, like my favorite blog posts that I read are from where you can tell someone to put a huge amount of time and effort into it. And it's polished detailed Research. Do you know whether it's a piece from like someone like James clear or, you know, I love these like complete guide type posts.And so I find myself waiting, you know, And I might publish four of these a year or something myself, but. Exactly. As you're saying, there's a lot more ideas out there. And a lot of unrefined ideas that if you're not careful, like that's the unrefined ideas, what's going to make it into your, like your long form detailed blog post.Dickie: [00:10:34] Well, I think it's important. That's an important point because now you can publish for a year because you have a credibility to it. Where in the beginning you could publish the ultimate guide, but there's not really anyone who sees you as an authority in that area. Right? So in something we preach and Ship 30 is you have to just get these ideas out there and work through a lot of it.Where people are going to come to your blog later, once you've kind of built a small following versus people just finding their way onto your blog, right? So its kind of a chicken or egg problem. And that's why I think the beauty of Twitter is you can start to accelerate these feedback loops, versus just kind of publishing into the void.Nathan: [00:11:16] Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. So something that you're doing A lot, and I'm curious when this started is playing around with different formats for tweets. You know, and, and really with Ship 30, I've seen you popularize that a lot of having a headline, you know, you're leading in the tweet itself and then the essay, as an image, when did you start to notice that working and was that inspired by anybody?Dickie: [00:11:39] So I've seen it all over Twitter early on. not early on, but a couple months ago where I think the very first one was, I can't remember his name, but he, he was doing like venture capital, blogs, like blogs in a single screenshot. And I loved the media. Right. It's like Twitter is a horrible place for long form content.Well or medium form content. I should say, Write threads are kind of they're just a little bit clunky, right? There's a time and place for threads on like, Poignant advice and things like that, but there is a, sometimes you want to read something like that. And so the atomic essay is just a way to tweet something, expand on it all in the same medium.Right? So it's like you said, with the lead in, you put something out there. If people want to read more, it, they can click on the image, read it, but it's also kind of a standalone, whatever it is at the top. Right? So it's like this optionality that you create. That leads and it's kind of a, it's a scroll stopper, right?People stop on images versus a, just a sea of text. And it's easy to kind of scroll through.Nathan: [00:12:45] Yeah. And what's interesting about it is also the load time. I have spent a lot of time in user experience. You know, I got started in designing mobile apps and, and just people have really interesting. behaviors when they're on their phone, especially, if the, the internet connection might not be the best and all of that.And you just see so many people click through to a site, let's say it's currently popular on hacker news that day, and it's overwhelmed. And the server's loading slowly. And they'll just click right back out and move on because it didn't load fast enough. And there's also just this unknown of sure. I clicked through this link, but what am I actually getting?And Twitter tries with the Twitter card, sort of give you a little preview maybe. but the expectations and the load time are Things that I don't think you should underestimate with. You know, what you're calling in a telematic essay of just clicking right in. And I know. You got to fit the whole thing in that screenshot.And so, you know, it's going to load super fast and I only have to commit to reading it for, I don't know, the next 45 six.Dickie: [00:13:51] And it's, it's something we talk about. And it's a quote from Julian Shapiro. That's where I, first of all, it is people don't have short attention spans. They have short consideration span. And so it's a, it's an empathetic writing medium, right? It's like, you're not going to have to read very much. We try to say that you better grab attention even in your atomic essay in the first line, because people can just swipe it away.Right. So it's like a, it's a way, it's a way of thinking of, we're not asking you to do very much by reading. This is clearly not going to take you all day. you can swipe away if you want. And yeah, the load time is interesting too, cause it's always right.Nathan: [00:14:25] You named it and atomic essay, is what impact do you think that has had on, on, you know, giving it a specific brandable name?Dickie: [00:14:35] It made sense to me as I see these as the building blocks for a lot of longer form content. And these, like you said, these, these blockbuster blog posts are really 15 or 20 writing sessions boiled down and kind of put all together where you could take one of the sections and it could be a standalone blog for a lot of them.So we see it as like this building block, atomic chemistry. What have you, physics, a lot of these longer form ideas. And so it just brings down the friction. It's I'm not publishing anything long It's I got to take one idea. I got about 200 words of space and I'm going to do it every day for 30 days.So all of these things kind of make it of lowering the, shaky hand to hit publish. Take all that friction away and make it as small as possible.Nathan: [00:15:29] Yeah. I love it. You know, so many people obsess over word, count, obsess over. I was going to say substance, I think, I mean more like making it really impactful. And so, you know, if you're publishing on a weekly or a monthly cadence, then you're putting so much more pressure on yourself. And so, or they're doing other things where they're saying I'm going to write every single day and it never leaves their computer.I'm curious as you made this pivot, Ooh, you know, last, last July last August, what did you notice different in your own writing habits and maybe what were some of those examples of ideas that got refined? You know, when they actually, I guess, hit the market rather than just being inside your newsletter.Dickie: [00:16:13] I think first and foremost, I learned to write quickly the part of the constraint is we say under 250 words, try to do it under 45 minutes and just get in the habit of being okay with B plus quality, with a plus consistency in the beginning. Right. Earn the right to focus on quality by getting through and building this consistency.And then. So that was kind of, for me, my ability to sync has gone through the roof to where it's like, I have this every single morning, this Coliseum to do, thinking on a single idea where anything I'm kind of want to explore further, I get 45 minutes to an hour to try to refine it. And the. The constraints of it, of getting it down to 250 words really improves my ability to kind of work through it in a, in a simple way.So it's all of these things that just bring my thoughts a little bit more coherent.Nathan: [00:17:15] Yeah. That makes sense. and then are you still bringing it to long form essays or you found that you're really focused on, on the shorter, medium?Dickie: [00:17:24] So I haven't, I'm disappointed in how much long form writing I've done, just because building the business side has kind of taken a lot of the long form content. So I'm still publishing along. I'm about to hit my 100 and at that point, I'm going to start to flip back through them because I've a lot of the things.Like my threads have been, you know, expanded upon atomic essays and things like that. So I had this foundation that I'm looking to put on a blog or on a whatever from here, but I just haven't found the time. So I got this big backlog and eventually I hope to kind of pivot into, into the longer form.Nathan: [00:18:01] Yeah, well, it's interesting. I'm, I'm thinking about the number of ideas that I've been putting down and writing into a book and found that because that format requires so much thought and structured and they all almost should be accompanied by. This other side of the really casual, like it here for a high friction of we're going to put it into a traditionally published book.These are well-refined ideas. Then we should have the opposite of anything here is where there's complete freedom. You have to publish. I love the time constraint of like, try to do an under 45 minutes, and just iterate quickly and refine those ideas.Dickie: [00:18:42] So we think the constraints are the biggest part of it, right? Any I'm writing a down on this now it's like there's seven or eight different constraints you can have as a writer and decisions. You can make, you know, medium platform, topic, length, time to Write publishing and. Every ounce of thought you put into those decisions takes away from your rights.So everyone that comes into Ship 30 it's like here are the eight things you might have to decide, and we've already made them for you. Now go Write everyday for 30 days, we give you the templates. We give you all of the things you need. It's like, okay, just explore 30 ideas now. And we, the creative freedom that we see it unlock is, is tremendous.Nathan: [00:19:25] Yeah. Okay. So let's talk about, for a second about the format of Ship 30 and. So you it's a, a course, you know, cohort based course that you're running monthly. How many months have you been running it now?Dickie: [00:19:38] So it's every six weeks just to give a two week break in between kind of reset. so the very first one was in November and we're on cohort number four Day 16 and today's April 14th. So yeah, we're on the fourth cohort right now.Nathan: [00:19:52] I had, like in first reading, I had seen it as monthly and I was like, that must be crazy to go 30 days, like, and justDickie: [00:20:01] Yeah, we found it, with, with off-boarding and trying to make improvements like the two week between each one has just been a heads down sprint of how can we make this better? What can we learn from our off-boarding and how can we Ship as many new features? and so that's always a fun time, but yeah, it's about every six weeks.Nathan: [00:20:17] So is it a ramp up? And then like when I sign up as a student, isDickie: [00:20:23] SureNathan: [00:20:24] up over our first week? Or take me through that experience?Dickie: [00:20:26] You will sign up. We drip you through like a resources sequence until the start of onboarding week. So onboarding week will start one week before the first day of the 30 days. So on that Monday, You're brought into the community Slack. We take you through a pretty comprehensive onboarding where, which is when you take the, how to Ship 30 for 30 course, which is, are just, it's a, it's a writing course, but it's really a habit design course.We give you everything you need to set up your daily writing workflow, all the templates and everything, and then work you through some more resources. Get you introduced to the community, sets you up in your accountability partners, et cetera. And then on Monday, you're ready to hit the road.Nathan: [00:21:05] Yeah. So, and then before that you're talking about dripping it. So if I were to sign up say, let's say I were to just miss, you know, sign up for one cohort and I'm like, Oh, the next one sounds interesting. I could buy that. Today. And then I would receive that Content timed out, you know, over a couple of weeks.Dickie: [00:21:25] So you wouldn't have access to the actual how to Ship 30 course. We put that just as the week on this, these are more just how to improve your writing Podcast articles, you know, things like that. And then on the first day you are entered into a 30 day email course written by Nicholas Cole. Who's just one of the most he's my business partner.And. The master of online writing in my opinion. And he put that together every single day, you get a prompt if you're running out of ideas and then kind of an actionable piece of writing advice on crafting headlines, gathering attention, distribution, those kinds of things.Nathan: [00:21:59] Nice. Yeah, that's great. Something else I noticed that you do, in your pricing is that the pricing changes as it gets closer to the date. Can you talk about that?Dickie: [00:22:09] Yeah. The, we like to have a good sense of how many we are going to have. and there's also a bit of the most public momentum on it happens at the beginning of each cohort. Right? So on day one through five, we've been on kind of a two week, two week break. And so during that first week and a half people that are unfamiliar are going to be greeted with a bunch of new essays.And so we try to capture that momentum in saying, Hey, if you want to sign up now, like you're going to regret it later if you don't pull the trigger earlier. And so it's just a, it's a way to incentivize early sign-ups and that gives us more clarity on the size of each one.Nathan: [00:22:50] Right. So it's something I. I'm realizing I'm relying on a screenshot from my notes, but the pricing being like one 99 until April 5th and then two 49 until April 26th and then two 99 from April 20, 2016, up until close. So, you know, it's basically saving 30% if you sign up today rather than say, Oh, that's so cool.I'll totally do it. And then in 20 days from now, when it's actually time to sign up being like, Oh yeah, I've, you know, I've got busy or whatever else.Dickie: [00:23:21] Right. It's all about taking action. And so that's what we try to incentivize.Nathan: [00:23:25] Yeah. So how do you think, the balance in, right in the product that you're selling of in Ship 30 for 30 it's obviously courses, Content, accountability, and all that. How do you think about the balance between a course like in the, the content and the structure that you're selling versus the accountability of like, look you have.You have all the ingredients, you, you just need someone to say like, like hold you accountable to Shipping and, sitting down and doing the writing.Dickie: [00:23:55] Yeah, it's a, we try to front-load the. Here's everything you need. And then the 30 days give as much accountability as we can. So we have office hours sessions. We have a, popping into Slack. We have accountability partners. It's we try to say, okay, if you have all these things in place to sit down on the first day of the 30 days and start writing, no matter what Day 11 is going to be hard.And so how can we intervene in that and continue to give you new ideas, engage with friends, bounce things around, you know, that is so it's like a Content Content Content course to begin. And then all about accountability.Nathan: [00:24:37] When you're running the same cohorts, you definitely see those trends of like, alright. Day 11 is hard. I can totally imagine that. The number of times that I've had a daily writing habit. Start or any kind of daily habit practicing the piano, you know, running or whatever else.And you hit basically that like day seven, you're like, yes, I've got a streak and then Day 10, 11, 15, somewhere in there. You're like, damn it, this is hard. This is a lotDickie: [00:25:03] Exactly. And we track a lot of that data where we're attracting the analytics to our web app, where you publish the essay and we're able to see, as people started to fall off, what can we do? And we've learned from the first three lines. If you can get to Day six or seven with some momentum, you've got a good chance.And then you're going to face another struggle around day 15, we call it the debt. Just, you know, Seth Godin's the debt. It, it happens to everyone. And so we really intervene during that time. You get them over that hump and then they're getting to day 30. So we've found kind of these places to intervene, to maximize the number of people that get all the way through.Nathan: [00:25:38] Yeah, that's interesting. So you're talking about this web app. So people aren't just posting their essays on Twitter, or maybe to their existing email list there they're actually publishing them inside the application as well.Dickie: [00:25:48] No. So the application is just kind of a text box that allows, so we started with just a Figma template. And distributed to everyone, but you can imagine the user experience is not that easy to maneuver a Figma template. So shout out to the first two cohorts, who've kind of put up with that. And then we had a community member build this web app where you get full creative control, but with a much easier interface.And then you export it right to an image you tweet right from there, but there's no platform kind of for the images themselves yet, or thinking about something with it. But for now it's just, just a standalone.Nathan: [00:26:25] Yeah. So how do you think about the, like the viral loops on this? I guess there's two sides of it. One is for the individual creator, you know, of the audience of their building and all of that, but I'm, I'm work here is about for the product that you're selling. Right. Of, The shift 30, it needs, you know, new, new creators to come in and participate in all of that.And you haven't really conveniently that all of your students, you know, all of your successful students are doing your marketing for you. How intentional was that? And then what changes or what tweaks have you made along the way?Dickie: [00:27:04] That was not as intentional as I would like to say that I had this thing, you know, big vision, but when it hit me that the more successful you are. The more marketing you do for the program, every successful one becomes kind of the front end asset for it. It was, I knew we were onto something when that clicked.So I threw in, there was a little things like in the Figma template, if you want, you can put it your own URL, but if not, it just says Ship 30 to thirty.com. You know, we have the hashtag, we have people it's a very ubiquitous thing, right. So there's a lot of parts to, The branding of it, wherever it's very recognizable and it's working, right.The audience that each member builds wants to then do it. So its kind of a, it's a beautiful loop.Nathan: [00:27:52] Yeah. Are there other, products or courses or things like that that you've seen with a similarly successful, viral loop?Dickie: [00:28:00] I'm not sure to be honest. I think it's. Because of the nature of it being like a writing challenge, in a sense you there's a lot of other courses, you learn something and then apply it to something completely different. But this is a very specific thing of what your goal is, is to write. And so by nature of writing, you build in that, that viral loop.Nathan: [00:28:24] Yeah. And it's just, it's taking everything that would be spread out over a long period of time. Like someone might be thinking about, okay, I'm going to do a cohort based course. I'm going to, I'm going to charge a thousand or 2000 or $3,000 for it. It's this big thing. It's, it's going to be six weeks or three months, like a semester long, you know, or.All of this stuff. And then they're going to implement what they learn over the next three, six, 12, 24 months. And that like, that's interesting, but what you've done is you've just taken all of this and crammed it down into one thing with very clear deliverables. And so all of that momentum happens all at once and it's fascinating to me.Dickie: [00:29:07] Yeah, and I think that's why we've been able to grow relatively quickly. We started with 55 and the first cohort were 171. Then two 50 and now the current one is 335.Nathan: [00:29:18] Wow. Hmm. Okay. So, so those are some of the numbers get into the revenue side, right. how much have, have you earned from the business and, and what are you looking for going forward?Dickie: [00:29:30] So total we've, we've done some things with the pricing where in the beginning, In the January cohort, the price was $99 because we didn't have the how to Ship 30 course. We didn't have the email course. We didn't have a lot of the things that we put in place now where we feel much stronger about charging.So now Write the price. As of right now is 250. And so our average price for every single person who has come through is about 135, but that's increasing now. And so the revenue breakdown. From just shift 30 is right around a hundred, a hundred thousand. And we have now Nicholas Cole and I have launched a follow on writing course called the right to Ship, which is for everyone who takes Ship 30 for 30, and really wants to double down in kind of an immersive online writing masterclass.It's the only way to describe a Nicholas Cole's book, the art and business of online writing, which of course is based on his kind of head blowing emoji. Where he's just been in this game for so long. and so he, he's a primary teacher for that, and that has done about 45,000 between, so those are when the first quarter, and based on just our, our current trajectory where we're looking to, I don't have an exact projection, but we just start, it's hard to forecast.Right. We're just moving quickly and continuing to improve all the products. And, and on that side, we'll see what happens.Nathan: [00:31:00] Yeah. Yeah, that's good. One thing. Right? So those are all the really positive, exciting, sides of it. one thing that I want to ask about it, especially because it involves, you know, our community directly, is some of the, like when you first came out with the sales page and everything for, shift 30 for 30, like the cost and similarities to Sean McCabe's, 30 days to better writing.And so I'm curious. One how that came to be. And then also, you know, how you handled a mistake like that. And then maybe the final thing is, is sort of this, this balance between, inspiration and us all being in the same community and learning from each other versus, you know, something like plagiarism, which is a big deal in the, in the writing community.Dickie: [00:31:48] Yeah, that that was a, drastic mistake on my side and caught up in. The idea I had was just market research on some are things. And I, to be honest was, it was just a terrifying moment for me when I realized what I'd done caught up in kind of a, a swipe file of notes and different things like that. And right when I kind of clicked two and three, it was, I need to own this mistake spot on.And so I said, Sean, this was a massive mistake. I, I. Take full ownerShip of it. I apologize. And I took it. I mean, it would have been up there for no more than a minute or two, no lie. And I took a step back after that and said, I have some, this has grown faster than I thought and had some work to do. And so I tried to, you know, took a step back and said, how can I prevent anything like this?I need to check myself and. That was a big moment of growth for me, where I kind of got shaken awake and I'm glad Sean was tremendously respectful and had every reason to be, you know, not as, as nice as he was about it until I'm very glad that we were able to, to kind of work that out.Nathan: [00:33:06] Yes, I'm in, Sean's an incredible human I've known him for a long time. He actually lives here in Boise. He was over at my house like four days ago for dinner. and, and so I, he's just so generous with his time and everything. And I think on the business side, there's a lot of places that you can make missteps.I've certainly had them with ConvertKit over the years with my own writing. And so, you know, one, I think it's important to talk about them, too, like exactly like you did, I've just own up to it. There's this other angle that people can take of like, Oh no, I didn't like let's pretend that happen or something.And that is a sure way to take, you know, a small problem and turn it into a huge problem. cause the internet is very unforgiving of people who. Pretend that they didn't make a mistake, you know? and so just like owning up to it directly and then sharing lessons learned from it. So, I love to hear that, you know, that was a point where you're, you're putting in more, safeguards or things like that.Is there anything that you recommend for writers going through your course or how they should, you know, make sure to cite sources properly or, You know, bridge this gap between inspiration and, and, like w wild side of inspiration and what they're actually publishing.Dickie: [00:34:31] I think it's a, you hear it to imitate then innovate where the more you can, all of these ideas are remixes and you want the best way to do it is say where your you are inspired from. And so it it's credit in the footnotes or whatever it is, but the more you can take ideas and then expand upon them, remix them, bring them together with others, is something we preach heavily.Nathan: [00:34:55] Yeah. Yeah, that's a good one. It makes me think of there's this idea of, you know, leverage selling products, multiple times, all of this that I've talked about for a long time, you know, I wrote a book about it and back in 2013, All this stuff. And then I came across Jack butcher, you know, in the last couple of years, phrasing it as build once, sell twice.And that was just the, you know, the, all these concepts that he had just narrowed down into one really simple phrase. And it's like, Oh man, one, I wish I thought about that. I thought of that because it's such a good phrase. and then, you know, too, I want to use it in my work. And so it's just like, okay, I.As a writer. I absolutely can. I just have to immediately say like, well, I learned from Jack butcher. You just have to give that, that credit immediately. cause there again, there's nothing new under the sun. It's all been said one way or another and it's just cite your sources.Dickie: [00:35:54] Yeah, spot on. It's fine.Nathan: [00:35:56] Let's dive into the Twitter growth side. Cause that that Twitter account that you spun up, you know, starting from scratch, is now over 20,000 subscribers. So things have, have taken off. what have you learned in going from zero to 20,000 and what are we at eight months now?Dickie: [00:36:16] Yeah, I think it's a, it's definitely a consistency side where I think I've tweeted. 35 times a week for the last call. It, however long since August, have written three or four threads a week and Twitter, it's a fickle platform because you have to consistently create content and continue to put it out.There is a way you can kind of put some Metta threads together and have, you know, ways of, of linking your old content. But at the same time, if someone visits your site or your profile, They get about four tweets or your bio to decide to follow you. So it's a consistent kind of putting things out and also just having a clear value proposition either whether it's in your bio or things like that, where the amount of optionality that anyone has to follow other people on Twitter, you kind of have to have a decent calling point.So all those points you can put in place to make that easy is the name of the game.Nathan: [00:37:17] So were there, like in all the different types of. Tweets. And I'm wondering if you even break this down. All right. There are things where you're or if I look at what's working for me, sometimes I'm surprised by it. Like I asked a question of, Hey, what is genuinely asking? what has made for a great Airbnb that you've stayed in because I own a few Airbnbs, I'm looking to level up the experience, et cetera.And that was like 350 replies and all this engagement and all of these followers. and I was like, I was just, you know, taking advantage of the fact that I have bunch of trends. That's what our followers to get an answer to a question rather than, you know, looking for engagement. So I'm curious in all the different types of tweets that you could do, whether it's threads questions, pithy, little perfect, you know, quotes like things that people will always agree with.What stood out to you that has worked in those, or are you just always playing with every different style?Dickie: [00:38:16] I have a couple consistent ones that I do. So in February, I for I've been journaling every morning for two or three years now and have kind of a staple of questions. And so this was one of my old blog posts that I published kind of into the void of my 10 favorite journal questions, 10 favorite questions to reflect on and where I found them.And I wrote up a thread on, on those, inspired by Tim Ferris. And in February he shared a link to my thread in his five bullet Friday. As a and so that was, for me, it was, I mean, I've listened to every episode. It was one of the coolest things to, you know, be just scrolling through and boom, get your name hit in the middle of it.So one that accelerated kind of my growth, but at the same time I'd been tweeting some reflection questions. And so now every morning, Monday through Friday at 9:00 AM, you'll get a question to reflect on. And it's just an interesting question for me. And so I find that these consistent formats where. You kind of become a Chipola like consistency, where people come to your profile and they know what to expect on a lot of things.Like I ask a question of the day on Mondays and Wednesdays of just, you know, what is financial freedom look like to you? Where a lot of the replies become interesting pieces of advice, right? I'm playing with one right now that I said, give the best advice you can in just two words. And it had 3000 replies.Had just because it was, and it was just a classic example of these constraints, creating creativity. but now those, the ones that are just engaging, asking questions, obviously scale is you have an audience, but they're the most fun task. And as a nature of the Twitter algorithm, when people respond to something, it shows up in more feeds, right?So there's that kind of, like you said, about the Airbnb, it was the reason so many people saw it was everyone else saw other people respond to it.Nathan: [00:40:10] As you look at that algorithm, are you seeing other things that are, you know, rewarded more? since Twitter does reward, you know, at first it was just retweets. You know, if you want to be seen in other feeds, it had to be retweeted and now favorites and replies are, are playing into it as well.Dickie: [00:40:27] Yeah, I think less so on that. What works? It's the, what does it work or posting the links. And so if you try to take Twitter off, if. You can see it in the data of, if you try to post links to something, you're it just gets crushed. I don't, I understand why I don't know how they kind of program it, but I'm sure it's some algorithm to do so, but that is a reason to any kind of writing you do.And you're seeing it more is you have to repurpose everything for Twitter. And that's what their goal is, is like they are taking flight in this creator ecosystem, right. They want you to stay on the platform, create content there. And so if you have a blog post and you're not, you know, I think Mario who was on the last episode does a tremendous job breaking down every post of the generalist into a thread.And that gets a lot of engagement naturally, because if he just said, Hey, here's the breakdown, go click on it. One people don't like to leave Twitter very much. And two the algorithm doesn't like when you try to bring them off. Right? So it's a double whammy that, if you're repurposing, you're going to get the best of everything.Nathan: [00:41:31] Yeah. And I mean, that's something that we've seen with, YouTube quite a bit where YouTube does not like to drive traffic off of the algorithm or off of the platform and the algorithm, you know, you could say. It's debatable, whether it penalizes videos that drive versus it rewards, videos that keep people on the platform.Probably some combination of both, when we have these, this Content that, you know, so I wrote an article, probably the last, like really serious, essay I wrote was called the billion dollar creator. And I wrote that on my blog. It's, you know, I don't know, 3000, 4,000 words long or something. and. That Twitter thread that I wrote of taking the highlights all the way down, you know, turning it into a threat and making sure there's images for each thing.That's probably the most popular tweet I've ever put out. but I'm curious when you're thinking about taking long form writing and repurposing it for Twitter. When do you go to a thread? When do you go to, you know, an atomic essay or something put into, you know, a screenshot and. Is there a system there?Dickie: [00:42:43] There's not that clean of a system, but my kind of mental hierarchy is everything starts as a tweet. And if it's got a little bit engagement, I'll explore it more for myself and posted it as an atomic essay. And then if that gets a lot of engagement, I know there's people are more likely to share threads.I think just because the, you know, I think it's a little more natural of like a retweet versus retweeting, the image. so that's kinda my. Sot. And I think on the long form side, it's definitely a thread because it ties nicely in to most of your long form content. It's going to be a lot of not standalone things, but sectioned off things.Right. So you can repost each one is its own kind of standalone, all the way down.Nathan: [00:43:28] Yeah. That's interesting. Somebody else I see is like, David Perell will often do this as he'll go back to these old threads. or AIJ who created card? he'll do, he has this thread, that's probably like 500 tweets long at this point of like every update and improvement he's ever made to card. How do you think of that as opposed to new ContentDickie: [00:43:48] Yeah, that, one's a little bit of inside baseball, where if you, if you have a tweet thread and you respond to it later, it shows the top tweet and the most two recent replies. So I just wrote a thread in my most popular one, ever. And it was just 10 inside Twitter, like advanced Twitter tips. And that one blew up beyond my wildest dreams had 40,000 likes or something like that.And one of the tips was if you want to re, re bring Content back up to the top, just respond to it. And don't retweet it, like add a new layer of thinking to it or something like that. And it naturally just brings it back up to the top as if you just tweeted it.Nathan: [00:44:31] And so then people are seeing this, this tweet that's already, popular. It's already maybe got 300 likes and twenty-five retweets and they're like, Oh, this must be good. And they're not paying attention to the fact that it's, you know, six months old or six weeks old,Dickie: [00:44:48] Correct. Yeah, exactly.Nathan: [00:44:50] What are some of, of those other things? And then we'll obviously point people in the show notes to the thread about Twitter threads. If we can get more meta than that.Dickie: [00:44:57] Okay. The first one of the big thread was just advanced Twitter tips and it was things like how to create lists, how to block, meet words. So that one is a little less prevalent, but I wrote one breaking down. Why I thought that one was successful. And that is kind of my approach to thread writing.And so a couple of just small ones, his eye of the camp that every tweet should act as a standalone. So I don't number things because you're able to engage and pop in and reply to single ones on your own. I think there should be. 90% of your thread success is going to be the very first tweet. And it's just a exercise in copywriting.And we've seen all the trends of, you know, time for thread or capitalized thread, those come and go. And once people get sick of reading them, there's a new one that comes out that kind of captures people. So that one is something we're spending more time on than cause at the end of the day, like that's the click-through rate, the better that you can get people to.You're just clicking on an article in the same sense. Right? So however you can. Write your copy too, to bring that up. and then just, if you break down the virality of it, it's people share things that are educational or entertaining. And so you should very clearly see which one, like Sean periods, clubhouse thread, that's the funniest, one of the funniest things I've ever read.And there was just, no, it was as long, it was the longest thing I've ever read on Twitter, but there was no way I was, wasn't going to go back up to the top and share it. And speaking of which, I guess one last tip is after you post one, you can quote, tweet it at the very bottom to give someone kind of a call to action, to jump back up to the top, to share it.So it's, Hey, if you enjoyed this. You know, jumped back up to the top and, and share it with your, with your followers and then they can tap right on it. And it brings it back up because so often you get to the bottom and it's just, you just swipe away. It's, you know, I'm onto the next thing, but this is, this is a way to say, Hey, if you enjoyed this, you probably forgot that this started up at the top here.They can click on it right away and share it. So it's just, you know, empathetic writing, getting them to do a little bit less work to go up and, and share it.Nathan: [00:47:01] Yeah. And that works well for you. And so one thing that you could do is if you had some popular threads in the past, you could even put that tweet at the very end referencing, you know, doing the circular reference and that, you know, would work well to, make the thread more effective going forward.And as you were saying, it would resurface the thread almost like a retweet would.Dickie: [00:47:23] Yeah. There's like a, there's a. Ecosystem of content you can start to create. Once you have a bunch of threads on a bunch of different topics, it's like, Oh, I've already covered this here. If you want to learn more about it. So, and it it's a, like a Roam Research of, of Twitter, which they don't do a great job of, of working out.But there's like a way to link all your content together in a way that's almost immersive. Right? You can just jump around and stay down the rabbit hole.Nathan: [00:47:48] have you noticed something like on threads? You'll see people, you know, do take Mario for example, with it, you know, club, he's writing all of that up. And then at the end, he's usually linking to like, go read the full piece. Ha when that's buried a little further down in the thread, do you think Twitter penalizes that?or do you think that works fine to link people off if it's at the end, right? Yeah.Dickie: [00:48:14] I think that works fine. I think it's on the tweet level that you will, are penalized for a link. So it's not that they like sense that you're trying to do it at the bottom. I think it's, if it's like a simple statement of, if this contains a link like penalize share-ability.Nathan: [00:48:30] How that's fascinating. What about media? Like, I think about a thread, from Andrew Wilkinson that he did on, it was like the. The real story about private equity firms and being bought. So it was like a mix of his, his experience plus general experience and all that. And his media all the way through was mostly like Scrooge McDuck, you know, gifts like diving into gold coins.And like, it wasn't that relevant, but it didn't make it a lot more engaging. And so I'm curious, does obviously the image to get people to click in and pay attention, but he had an image tied to every single one.Dickie: [00:49:11] Yeah, I have. I've noticed that I have, more pure text, mostly because I'm not creative enough to like figure out an image for every single one. But. Some like Sahil, Blum who writes tremendous threads on, on finance does a lot of images and everyone just to kind of give it some context and some texture, I think it is.And I'm sure it works for, for everyone. Right. But, it's not something I've particularly explored, but I think it's, I enjoy reading them when they've got some kind of image or a little video clip here and there. or gift that, that keeps the reader going.Nathan: [00:49:43] Somebody else that I want to touch back on is you mentioned you don't number threads, or like, you know, this is tweet four of seven, which is something that always annoys me for whatever reason. when people number the threads, I feel like, I don't know. It makes it feel like non-native Content.Like it doesn't actually belong on Twitter. it, and like you were saying, each tweet can't stand alone and often you'll find that where you'll click you're seasoned and retweeted you back. Oh, that's interesting. You click into it to see the replies, and then you realize that it's actually tweet five of a 25 tweet thread.It's not even the beginning of it. for some reason, it just seems less engaging when you're putting something in there that is not necessary for the tweet itself. So I think that's a really good point.Dickie: [00:50:34] Yeah, like the one flash, it just, it, it doesn't do much, you know, it, it takes away from the flow of it. Right. That's how I feel.Nathan: [00:50:41] Yeah, that's good. Keep bringing it back to newsletters. so Twitter, these days is one of the biggest channels that people are growing newsletters. how has your efforts on Twitter? How has that played back for your newsletter? And what's worked to drive, subscribers or followers from Twitter to newsletter subscribers.Dickie: [00:50:59] I haven't done. So my newsletter is it's just a curation of links that I'm interested in, on. I just really call it growth. So growth of companies, people, systems improvement, that kind of thing. I have had really three events. I think I have like 2,900, 3000 subscribers on my newsletter. because I've kind of focused more on Twitter.I feel like I could start to share my news that or more to drive traffic, but the three that had one of my very first successful threads, I wrote one on biology's tryna Boston, that Naval picked up and I went from 300 to a thousand Twitter followers. And. From 250 to 800 newsletter subscribers, just cause I popped it at the bottom.And that was, I like to say it took 40 weeks to get to, to 300 in about nine hours to go to to 800, which is just how it goes. Right. but I have, my newsletter has turned more into just kind of a personal thing and the, the growth of it, I'm less focused on because there's not. Everyone has enough curation his letters.I'm really writing it for me at this point. Will I take it to a different medium or something in the future, maybe, but, today it's really just, you know, I'll tweet it out and pop the link at the bottom. every, every Sunday when I write it, but nothing too, too crazy.Nathan: [00:52:25] Yeah. That makes sense. Is there anything that, as someone let's say they've got 10,000 subscribers or 5,000 subscribers, they've got some traction. Is there anything that you would want to leave them with of things that have worked really well for you that you think other creators listening should, should take into account?Dickie: [00:52:42] Yeah, one of my biggest lessons learned on the content side was from Sahil, who I mentioned earlier and it's create great content, but don't underestimate the importance of distribution and for a lot of us Twitter, especially if, or whether it's your newsletter. You want to feel confident in sharing the things you're writing, right?So it's almost this forcing function where if I say every thread that I write, I'm going to DM it to 10 people who I think will find it valuable. I know that I'm going to put more effort and more refining into my content, but at the same time, that's going to force me to create better content. They're going to be more likely to share it.And so I've fallen into this trap of, “Oh, I've, I've hit that 10,000 Mark enough people are reading.” You never know, they could be on an off day. And so hustle for distribution and take it seriously, I think is the biggest lesson that I've learned and the result is better content and just more growth.Nathan: [00:53:46] Yeah, that's great. Well, where should people go to follow you on Twitter? Subscribe to the newsletter, check out the course and everything else?Dickie: [00:53:53] Sure. So on Twitter, I spend way too much time. That's @Dickiebush, D I C K I E B U S H. I'm sure you'll find me there. If you want to learn more about Ship 30 for 30, Ship30for30.com, and my newsletter is Dickiebush.substack.com. So I keep it simple. And yeah, the DMs are open. Reach out.I love to chat, and you'll definitely find me on Twitter that's for sure.Nathan: [00:54:21] I think what we've established for sure is that you're very accessible on Twitter. Well, good times. Thanks for coming on and we'll chat soon.Dickie: [00:54:31] Cool. Thanks Nathan. I appreciate it.

In the past decade, Nicolas Cole has been an elite performer in many distinct areas.As a teenager, he was a top ranked World of Warcraft player and popular gaming blogger. In college, he gained over 60 pounds of muscle from bodybuilding and became an authority on gluten-free fitness. Later, he started writing on Quora and quickly became the number one, most read writer on the entire platform.Soon after, he founded a hugely successful executive ghostwriting agency.A few years in to running that company, Cole realized his business was keeping him from what he truly loved, writing. On this podcast, he tells the story scaling everything back to focus on his writing craft. Since then, he's been writing nonstop. In addition, Cole recently teamed up with Dickie Bush (episode 52) to build out the Ship30for30 writing challenge.We also talk about how to become a top performer in any skill, how to manage obsession, and what Cole hopes to accomplish in the future. Links:Follow Nicolas Cole on Twitter: https://twitter.com/Nicolascole77Check out his new book: https://www.amazon.com/Art-Business-Online-Writing-Capturing-ebook/dp/B08GZK274F/Sign up for Ship30for30: https://ship30for30.com/Help us out:Thanks for listening! If you enjoyed the show, please leave a five star review or share this episode with a friend.Reach out to us on twitter: https://twitter.com/LouisKyleShow

Dickie Bush is a portfolio manager,  a Princeton football alumni, online writer and founder of the Ship 30 for 30 online writing community. He is committed to studying a variety of systems and understanding their growth.Ship 30 for 30 is an online writing challenge where each participant commits to write thirty short "atomic" essays every day for 30 days. It serves as a forcing function for people to build a daily writing habit and get comfortable frequently sharing their ideas publicly. Links:Ship 30 for 30: https://ship30for30.com/Dickie's Website: https://www.dickiebush.com/Dickie's Twitter: https://twitter.com/dickiebushDickie's Blog: https://www.dickiebush.com/essaysHelp The Louis and Kyle Show:If you would like to reach out to us, the best way to do so is on Twitter or Instagram.If you liked the podcast, please drop us a five star rating on iTunes or share it with a friend.Enjoy!

This episode features Dickie Bush, who played Center for the Princeton Tigers. Dickie currently lives in New York City and is an analyst at a macro hedge fund. Dickie also is a top-notch twitter follow, an excellent writer, and overall great guy. We discuss a wide range of topics, including Dickie's football career, habit formation, the internets implications on society, and his success with a ketogenic diet. Couldn't think of a better start to the New Year than having this conversation with Dickie. Personal Website - https://www.dickiebush.com/ Twitter - @dickiebush Substack - https://dickiebush.substack.com/subscribe

Sid Jha started a weekly newsletter in May 2019, while he was in college, sharing his observations on books and academic papers, unique business stories, and a few niche parts of the internet. He sent the first few editions to his close friends and over time has built a base of 3000+ subscribers. He's since met some very interesting people like David Perell and Packy Mccormick and learned a ton of lessons. These days, 30% of his articles are based on stuff shared by his readers, which is quite amazing. Ever since I interviewed Dickie Bush a few weeks back, I wanted to interview someone in the newsletter space again and Sid is one of the most interesting people I've met online. His tips on starting a newsletter and building distribution into the content are really valuable. We talked about a lot of interesting things - more in the show notes below. Hope you enjoy it as much as I did. Happy Sunday :) SHOW NOTES 01:40 - Introduction and College 02:48 - Sunday Snapshots and why I started writing the newsletter 04:01 - The habit of reading 05:41 - The American and Indian culture of entrepreneurship 07:07 - Entrepreneurship is an investment with unbounded upside 08:05 - Taking notes and breaking down the Starbucks loyalty system 10:48 - My process of writing and the value of consistency 12:55 - My process of crafting an edition of Sunday Snapshots newsletter 14:36 - When I realized people outside my friend circle had started reading the newsletter 17:05 - David Perell and Packy Mccormick 18:28 - Building a personal monopoly and the infinite leverage of the internet 20:15 - Accountability is underappreciated and why super-rich people are fit 21:27 - How I'm building my personal monopoly with observation-based writing on tech, history, or people 23:40 - How I'd grow a newsletter from scratch if I started today 26:31 - Building distribution into your content and why you should never write about Mark Zuckerberg 27:56 - Your Chief of staff would be an extension of your abilities and should complement you 30:30 - How I made sure my breakdowns of Lyndon B. Johnson's went viral 32:02 - Narvar and controlling the post-purchase experience of e-commerce 33:50 - LBJ book series and The Remains of the Day by Kazuo Ishiguro 34:43 - My favorite newsletters - The Generalist, Femstreet, Remains if the day, Sari Azout, Eugene Wei, and Venture Desktop 36:24 - Asking users to share my content and managing scale 37:36 - I'd rather have fewer subscribers than a low email open rate 39:04 - Success according to me 39:54 - Ideas I'm playing with for the next editions of the newsletter 40:57 - Start your newsletter today, set a deadline, and commit to it I share all the articles/podcasts/books I consume during researching my guests as well as other stuff I find interesting in the newsletter (https://stealmymarketing.substack.com) You can also follow me on Twitter for similar stuff. My DMs are open (https://twitter.com/AbhishekLpd) Sunday Snapshots (https://sss.substack.com) Sid's Twitter (https://twitter.com/sidharthajha) Sid's Longform Essays (https://www.sidharthajha.com) --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/intellectual-software/message

This episode happened because I got lucky :D I was scrolling Twitter and saw Dickie's tweet. He basically said he was available for 3 hours the next day and was looking for ideas. I asked him to come up on the podcast and within 24 hours, we were on call. The magic of the internet :) Dickie has an interesting story. He started writing a curation of his favorite podcast episodes, book notes, and articles on his newsletter, Dickie's Digest, at the beginning of 2020. He started with 5 subscribers and now has 1000+ subscribers from 29 countries in just 10 months. He writes awesome tweet threads, read by Naval Ravikant, and Tim Ferriss, to name a few, and just started a community for writers last week that already has 100+ members the last time I checked. SHOW NOTES 02:21 - Introduction 04:28 - Playing football for Princeton University 05:50 - Starting Dickie's Digest newsletter and unlocking the leverage of the internet 08:22 - Business growth, people growth, and systems growth 09:17 - My first subscribers were my family and two roommates 10:20 - Most people don't want to be told it'll take them 30 weeks to reach 200 subscribers 11:43 - In content creation, there is something about credibility that is formed as a result of your consistency 13:00 - The most viral tweet thread I wrote and it went viral 15:37 - What I learned from Anthony Pompliano and David Perell 17:43 - Lessons from War of Art and beating the resistance 19:33 - Minimum Viable Action 22:03 - Intentional day planning, optimizing my days for flow and context switching 24:36 - The most marked-up books on my bookshelf 26:03 - Stoicism 28:26 - Lessons from best sports coaches - Nick Saban, Phil Jackson, Bill Belichick 30:27 - Why you should start writing a journal - 500 words a day for 500 days 32:13 - All things Dickie's Digest 33:48 - My entire process of writing Dickie's Digest 37:35 - Content aggregators that I look up to 40:33 - Anyone who wants to become a better writer should learn copywriting and the best books on copywriting 42:26 - Content creators who are killing it on Twitter 43:22 - How to write great Twitter threads and how I do it 46:17 - Writing a newsletter is the highest leverage thing you can do with an hour of your time 47:16 - My favorite podcasts 48:31 - If you're optimizing for one thing in life, it should be for your energy levels 50:08 - Twitter has democratized access to some of the smartest thinkers on earth 52:27 - Why I believe Chamath Palihapitiya is the most successful person 54:07 - Rolling funds and how Shaan Puri and Anthony Pompliano raised their multi-million dollar funds from Twitter 55:42 - SPACs and why you should invest in one 59:20 - Connect with me I share all the articles/podcasts/books I consume during researching my guests as well as other stuff I find interesting in the newsletter (https://stealmymarketing.substack.com/) You can also follow me on Twitter for similar stuff. My DMs are open (https://twitter.com/AbhishekLpd) Dickie's Website (https://www.dickiebush.com/) Dickie's Twitter (https://twitter.com/dickiebush) Dickie's Digest (https://dickiebush.substack.com/) --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/intellectual-software/message

Dickie Bush is a writer who played football and received a degree in Financial Engineering from Princeton University. He currently works as a Portfolio Analyst at a hedge fund.  Enjoyed this episode? You'll also like my free weekly newsletter – Tuesday Treasure.