Podcasts about so4

ORDER OUR BOOK OUT: HERE Take the INSTINCTS ASSESSMENT www.theartofgrowth.org Email us your thoughts and questions!   Follow us on Instagram at ArtofGrowth for more on this subject this month and let us know what you are doing.   Go to our website to sign up for:Corporate Training  One-on-one coaching  Enneagram Certification     AND MORE...Support the showhttps://www.theartofgrowth.org/

Enneagram teacher and psychotherapist Beatrice Chestnut has a rich conversation interviewing an Enneagram Social Four, Elizabeth Cotton. As a SO4, Lizzy shares her experience using the Enneagram with her clients as a psychotherapist and how she sees the power of this ancient tool, especially when working with couples. She also opens up about how understanding her own Enneagram subtype helps her dissolve her attachment to sadness and reside in her deeper nature of pure joy.  You can learn more about the 27 Enneagram subtypes. https://cpenneagram.com/subtypes Like learning about the Enneagram from Bea and Uranio? Join a community of Enneagram enthusiasts and participate in live monthly webinars and Q&As with Bea and Uranio. Sign up for a FREE trial of CP Online membership at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://learn.cpenneagram.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Want to discover which Enneagram type you could be? Visit our webpage ⁠https://cpenneagram.com/compass ⁠to learn about the Enneagram test they created, CPS Enneagram Compass. Please subscribe and share this podcast with others. It will help us out a lot! Subscribe to our Youtube channel: ⁠https://www.youtube.com/@ChestnutPaesEnneagramAcademy⁠ Follow us on Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/cpenneagram/⁠ Sign up for our newsletter ⁠https://cpenneagram.com/newsletter⁠ Questions? ⁠hello@cpenneagram.com⁠

S7E7 - In this week's episode of our ongoing series about why each Enneagram type tends to say "yes" too much, we dig into Type 4. This episode illustrates how the emotional passion of envy, and the feeling that something is missing, often drives Enneagram 4s to say "yes" too often. Hear directly from the SP4, SO4, and SX4 subtypes about how the search for what feels missing—whether in themselves or in their connections—often drives them to say "yes" to things too much.Whether you're a Type 4 or not, this episode will give you the opportunity to reflect and observe on your own "yes" patterns.Get your free “Yes to Less” Guide here »Want to explore your Enneagram type and your type's unique path for growth?Let's work together »

In this edition of Dig It, Peter Brown, and Chris Day chat with winemaker / vintner Tim Chafor, who runs the 8-acre Chafor Wine Estate featuring over 10,000 grape vines, set in the heart of the Buckinghamshire countryside and just a stone's throw from the Garden Centre.Grapes grown at Chafor Wine Estate are Champagne varieties of ‘Chardonnay' (white), ‘Pinot Noir' (red) and ‘Pinot Meunier', (red) alongside ‘Bacchus' (white), a variety which is widely becoming recognised as England's signature grape. This variety is a true dual-purpose variety.Other grapes mentioned: ‘Merlot' (red), ‘Cabernet Sauvignon' (red) and ‘Sauvignon Blanc' (white).Grape rootstocks, including the stock Tim recommends SO4.Bernwood Forest and Buckinghamshire's County Council Coat of Arms inspired the stag logo used by Chafor Wine Estate.If you fancy grape stomping (feet pressing) then you might have to look further afield in the UK, as Tim said these would be experiences and we did spot one on Airbnb Tip: Google search ‘grape stomping'.Accolades Tim's wines have collected major awards from such esteemed bodies as the International Wine Challenge, Decanter, and the UK Wine awards. Tim's 2014 Chafor Wine Estate Vintage Rosé received 91 points from leading wine advocate Robert Parker.Desert island luxuries: A grape vine, either ‘Bacchus' or if that's unavailable the variety ‘Pinot Noir' and a wine press!Useful linksChafor Wine Estate websiteOur thanks to Chiltern Music Therapy for supplying the music. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Today I go over the method I use for introducing story writing to kids in later First Grade and early Second or Third Grade.  I will model the outline and then write a short story.Here are the highlights:0:18  Somebody, Wanted, But, So, Then0:42  Somebody1:28 Wanted1:40 But1:50 So2:14 Then2:23  Review it2:52 Writing out the story - Somebody3:26 Wanted, But3:55 So4:15 Then4:23 IllustrationsJoin my Facebook GroupIf you happen to use any of these ideas at home or in your classroom, leave a comment below and let me know how they go! :) Also, if you share any of the games from Savvy Teaching Tips, please tag me on Instagram @savvyteachingtips so I can see!! You can also use the hashtag: #savvyteachingtips**SIGN UP FOR MY EMAIL LIST FOR THE LATEST UPDATES, TIPS, and FREEBIES!**Be sure to subscribe and click the bell to see all my future videos.MY BLOGMY STOREMY INSTAGRAMMY TIKTOKMY FACEBOOK PAGE:MY YOUTUBE CHANNEL:CONTACT: sandra@savvyteachingtips.netThanks for stopping by today!Sandra

Intro: Nightmare, revisited. Let Me Run This By You: Gina's petty bullshit.Interview: We talk to the co-Artistic Director of Steppenwolf Theatre, Glenn Davis, about the Stratford Festival, King James, You Got Older, The Christians, being a producer with Tarell Alvin McCraney, Anna D. Shapiro, Audrey Francis, Rajiv Joseph, Alana Arenas, coming from a political family, pay equity, DEI, Seagull, Downstate, regret.FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):2 (10s):And I'm Gina Polizzi. We1 (11s):Went to theater all together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it.3 (16s):Years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it1 (20s):All. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? Yeah, because the Handmaid's tale came true since we last talk.2 (36s):Oh my God. I was just preparing to say to you my new favorite party question, not that I ever go to parties is what country are you going to move to when they ask you to be a handmade? Because I think the trick is the timing, you know, like there's going to be a point of no return,1 (52s):Right? You could2 (54s):Go to,1 (54s):Yeah, I guess I could, I feel like things might be worse there in some ways, but not eventually. Maybe not like now you're right. It's a timing thing, because right now it might be worse. But in about, within a couple of years, it could be better. So you're right. It's a timing thing. So maybe the idea is to like get passports. Well, the problem is when you get one passport, you have to turn in another, I think, unless you're a secret double agent and doing illegal things, like, I don't know that you can be a duel. Oh, I'm confused. We need, that's what we need a guest on that knows about passports.2 (1m 32s):Well, I don't know anything about passports, but I will say I, the reason that I would be allowed to have dual citizenship in Italy is because I can prove, you know, that my ancestors came from there. So I probably the same thing is true for you1 (1m 50s):Only2 (1m 50s):Have to go back one generation immigrants lady1 (1m 54s):Over here.2 (1m 55s):Right?1 (1m 55s):Right. Yeah. It's interesting. I, yeah, I, there are a lot of, I mean, this whole thing has been this whole overturning Roe vs. Wade has been, it has been horrific. And also because I've come from things from this and as you do too, like the psychological lens is trauma lens. I'm like, okay. The reactions, especially on social media have been wild. So what I'm noticing is it's even more hand Handmaid's tailie in that people then other women aren't then sort of policing other people's responses to this.1 (2m 37s):Meaning people are like, well, I don't know why you're shocked. So instead of saying, yes, you can have your reaction. People are mad that women are shocked. Other women are like, well, what did you think was going to happen? We, and I'm like, okay, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. This is part of the deal. Like let people have their responses, let them, so I am not shocked, but that does not mean that it hurts any less or that it, it is my job to tell someone that their outrage is not justified or not appropriate.2 (3m 15s):I mean, that's like, that's like telling a little kid, well, your dad hits you every time he gets drunk. What's why are you so surprised? You know, it's like, well, that doesn't make it hurt any less. That doesn't make me any less fearful. The feeling that I have in my body right now is the feeling that I had on election night in 2016. You know, I don't know if I ever told you my story about that, but just like every other reasonable person in the world, I completely assumed Hillary Clinton would win. And I wore my little pants version of a pantsuit to vote. I came home and I had, I didn't invite anybody over, but I made, I had like snacks, like it was a super bowl. And I put up a big piece of paper like that paper we wrote on when we were doing our, our TV show and with a map and I was gonna, I was marking the electoral votes, teach my kids about the electoral college.2 (4m 10s):And it's like, and it's just starts going, okay, well, that's not, that's not too bad. And then, and pretty early on, I realized what was happening. And I became immediately exhausted. And I went up to my bed and I fell asleep. And in the middle of the night, I rolled over to check my phone and I saw the confirmed, the worst had happened. And now I have that feeling again. I have that feeling of like, there's no hope.1 (4m 40s):This2 (4m 40s):Is, this is all bad.1 (4m 43s):I, I, I totally hear you. I, miles is famous for saying that. I knew that Trump was gonna win. And I did not, of course, but what I knew was when I went to the polls, it was the weirdest thing. There was this old, weird white guy, and this was in Evanston still. And this old, weird white guy in Evanston, which is very, very, very democratic. But he was handing out these flyers that were like very pro-Trump and very like Trump is going to win and he should, anyway, I had this sinking feeling. I was like, oh wait, wait, wait, this is Evanston.1 (5m 24s):And this guy is like, really sure. And also he seems like kind of a crack pot, but kind of not. And I, there was the first time at the polls where I was like, oh no, oh no, no, no, no, no. I have a bad feeling about this. And then we went to a friend's house, big mistake for an election night situation. And as the returns started coming in, people started at the party getting drunker. And so getting sadder and getting crazier and saying things like, well that this is fine. Like I'll just move to Italy or I'll just move to. But like, it was like the, the, the denial and the alcohol mixing was really, really, really, really depressing.1 (6m 8s):And I was like, I got to get out of here. And so we left before it was called, of course. And, and we, and it was, but I did have this sinking feeling when, when that, when the dude at the, it wasn't at the polls, it was like, I had gone to whole foods afterwards. It's right. And this guy was like putting leaflets on everyone's car that was like, basically get ready for Trump. And I was like in a good way. And I was like, oh shit. If this is happening at Evanston, we've got a problem area. So I wasn't shocked either, but I was very dismayed. And the feeling I have now is that like, literally, I feel like, like I kind of have a migraine today and I feel like I've had a migraine since 1975. That's kind of the feeling I have.1 (6m 49s):Like every time something like this happens, I feel like, oh, this feeling again, I have this feeling that I am exhausted and my head hurts and yeah. And then online, it's just a cesspool and some things are great and people are organizing. And, but some things are just, you know, a lot of people we all, as humans get, we just love to start censoring people's feelings and emotions about a tragedy.2 (7m 19s):Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But also that behavior is just like, I am trying to control you because I feel so out of control of myself. And I kind of like, doesn't even really register that much to me. But on Saturday I went to a rally and, you know, just like about 20 minutes from my house. And it's always a good feeling to do something when, when you feel like there's nothing to do. So that was great. And there was about a hundred people there. So that was great. And the, the person who was organizing it was a woman. So she, she literally said the very first words, but it was just to introduce this next speaker, who was a man.2 (8m 6s):And then after that was another man. And then after that was another man. So it was five men spoke in a1 (8m 11s):Row about this.2 (8m 16s):Yeah. Well, okay. So in the moment, the first person who spoke was our Senator Richard Blumenthal. Okay. That, Hey, he came here, that's pretty great. And he, and he has a very good record of voting the way that I agree with for women's rights, people's rights, human rights. So that felt okay. And then his son is also in politics, his1 (8m 45s):Son.2 (8m 46s):So then his son spoke and his son gave this speech that I could tell, like, I could tell them he did this thing. Or if like he was mimicking the cadence of how political speeches go, where you say three sentences on the fourth sentence, you, you get louder because that's when everybody's going to applaud. But then nobody applauded.1 (9m 8s):And he2 (9m 8s):Was real confused. He was real confused anyway, but by the fourth man who got up did say, I think I'm the fourth man in a row to be speaking here. You know, he was kind of at least trying to acknowledge it. And I'm of two minds because on the one hand, I think thank God that there are men in positions of power, who, who do agree with, you know, caudifying row, but at the same time, in a more like, step, take a step back way. I'm just going like, yeah, but this is the problem. This is the problem. This is the problem that only your voice matters.1 (9m 51s):Well, I think it, for me, it's what I call in LA, at least the giving tents to the houseless situation. So we're giving tends to it's the exact same thing. Right. We're giving tends to people that have no home. Okay. So they have shelter now. Okay. But what, what are we going to really get down to the real issue of what's happening here? So, so2 (10m 15s):Yeah. Why are they homeless and what are the services that they, okay,1 (10m 18s):Why are we not asking the big questions? And I think we, as people are asking the big questions, but the answers are so going to have to change the way the empire works, that nobody is going to, we, we're not really answering the questions. Right. So I think there's right at the, every I saw this and I don't know if this is accurate, but I saw something that the average, the empire last 250 years, and we're at 2 452 (10m 51s):Talk motherfucker. Yeah.1 (10m 54s):So, so I feel like, yeah, people are very afraid to talk about civil war. People are afraid, look, it's a scary thing. And, and, and Nope, Nope, nobody really wants that, but I don't understand where else we're headed. So, so while I don't like it, it's the same thing with the, with the response of people while I don't like that this is happening, it is happening. So I'm going to just say, okay, like, I, I, I, I am not, I don't have any face that we are interested in doing anything else, but, but leaping towards extinction.1 (11m 39s):That's how I feel like, I'm not sure what else we're going to do because I'm, I'm looking at facts and I'm looking at what's happening in, in, you know, obviously climate change wise. And I'm like, oh, we're, we're making choices. And right. And also people are probably going to be like, oh, well, there are people doing good work. And that is true. There are a lot of people doing good work. It's just seems like the people that are making decisions are the people, you know, with the most power are not doing good work are doing, I don't know what they're doing, but they're, they're, they're doing capitalism and what's best for, for, for their pocket.1 (12m 19s):And that's. Yeah.2 (12m 21s):But we, even1 (12m 22s):Though it's about money,2 (12m 23s):It's about money. And it's also about it's about money and it's about getting reelected because the, because the point of, you know, the reason that all these men's, they were all politicians and they were just, all right, it's all running for reelection. And that's the other thing is miss me with your false, like, I'm not saying to anybody on that stage had false promises, but there's quite a lot of good politicians, you know, as good as they can be, who run on these campaign promises. And they never deliver because they have a hard time, you know, getting their, their fellow senators and so forth to agree with them.2 (13m 3s):But yeah, now we're being selected out. I mean, like, there's just really no other way to look at it. And I guess I could say, I guess we deserve it.1 (13m 19s):Let me run this by you.2 (13m 27s):However, all of this doesn't mean that I don't still get involved in petty bullshit. Like I did.1 (13m 35s):Well, tell me, tell me all about that's fantastic.2 (13m 38s):We have this God damn fucking bitch of a neighbor that I, I mean, she's just the repository for my rage right now. You know, it's like, it's not really about her, but she she's, you know, she's the person who, when we first moved into this house, very friendly came over, introduced herself. We had kids similar ages, she's at our house for a while. Chatting. She leaves, she calls me 20 minutes later to, to, in an alarmed fashion to tell me that my children who at the time were six and eight or whatever it had had crossed the street without me there.2 (14m 21s):And that this was obviously going to be a big problem for me. And I, I mean, that just kind of sealed the deal. We, we tried to be friends. She, she started one of these multi-level marketing. She was selling jewelry. I bought her dumb ass jewelry, you know, and it's just been one thing after the other. And, and she's like the nosy neighbor. Who's never missing an opportunity to tell everybody what they should and shouldn't be doing. And she has these two really out of control dogs that just bark constantly. And she walks them or attempts to walk them. And she, and no other dogs basically can be on the street, you know, without there being a big kerfuffle.2 (15m 7s):Now, when I'm walking my dog and I see her coming, I turn the other way a, because I really don't want to see her, but also because I don't want to go through the whole thing of my dog. Yeah. It's all thing. Right. Well, my husband doesn't avoid things like that.1 (15m 22s):Well, I've miles wouldn't even notice until it was too late, but I feel like Aaron is more like, I'm going to just walk my dog.2 (15m 30s):He's like, it's my fucking street and my dog. And we still live in an America where you're free. You're free to walk your dog. So she's walking. So he's walking the dog and she's coming towards and she's doing her usual thing. And then she said, and this was not the first time she said this. She tells him it's not really a great time to be walking your dog right now as if like she gets to go to1 (15m 54s):No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.2 (15m 58s):Well, my in-state, I really wanted to go fly into a rage over to her house. And I, luckily I didn't do that. I did go for a walk and walk by her house, both my fingers up. And I thought, well, if I saw her at my dream,1 (16m 14s):What I would say is2 (16m 15s):I tell you to take those Stella and dot necklaces and choke and hang yourself with them. But they're so cheap. All you'd get is a green net.1 (16m 23s):Yeah. You just break it. Wouldn't do the job. It wouldn't do the job. Oh my.2 (16m 31s):But in a way, you know, having these petty things is sort of life affirming right. In this weird way. It's like at the end of the day, you're just like, oh yeah, it's just, you don't like your neighbor. People sometimes don't like their neighbors. It's not as much.1 (16m 46s):What did, what did your husband say to her? Nothing.2 (16m 50s):I mean, he was just like, I I'm walking my dog. I mean, like, I think he was just so flummoxed by the whole thing. Like, is this person really trying to tell me God? Yeah. That's yeah. I think, I think he was done1 (17m 5s):The audacity. Yeah. I, I, I, yeah, I hate, I hate her already. And I also think the real issue is fucking, you feel terrible that you cannot control your dogs and you have it done with the rest of us dumb, but responsible fuckers have done, which is train our goddamn dogs. Doris, right now I'm paying an, a great amount of money. So she can go to fucking Frenchie school so that when she sees2 (17m 35s):Her all about1 (17m 37s):God, so she doesn't jump on people and she doesn't do well. Okay. So when we Doris is, so I did not understand that when even, okay. So Frenchies are bred to be completely dependent on humans. Okay. So like, meaning back in the day, they're not the kind of dog that's bred to go out on their own. They're highly dependent. They're like needy fucking things. Right. Okay. Great. But that doesn't mean what I'm understanding is they still need pack training because the pack, we are not their pack. It's so funny. Like I am not a dog and miles is not a dog. We don't understand dog.1 (18m 18s):And so even these like sort of boot, you know, like fancy bougie dogs need pack training, which I was so Cesar Milan always says like, you know, like Eden, these designer ass dogs need fricking socialization. And I thought that meant she just needed to be around people. And like, she needs to be around dogs. That will correct her. And so there is this guy who's obsessed with dogs that lives in, in the miracle mile. I thought it was west Hollywood. I don't know where I am. Anytime I cross over I'm like anywhere is away from Pasadena. So my friend was like, listen, there's something called the school. And they also have like Frenchie Fridays and they ha it's like a very Frenchie centric dog school.1 (19m 6s):And they bring in this trainer, that's a protege of Cesar Milan, but everyone can say their approach. I could say I'm a protege of Cesar Milan probably. But anyway, and they play Tibetan singing bowls for the dogs and they get them to calm down and they, and it's a lot of Frenchies, there's like 10 Frenchies that go there. And so I said, all right, I'm going to give it a chance because Doris is great. She's just a tip, very typical Frenchie. And she gets very excited and she doesn't know how to calm herself down. So she pees inside and she will jump on you. And she's really mouthy still at a year. And so I was like, okay, well, like I need to, and, and she she's missing.1 (19m 48s):You can tell like, she's missing. Ideally we'd get another dog, but there's no way in hell in a one bedroom. That's this small. I would ever get another dog, especially not another Frenchie. So I was like, what, what to do, what to do. And this guy is like, that runs, this school will send you recaps of the class today in Frenchie class we learned. And then he will explain all the things that we learned. I'm not there. He's not, it's the dogs. It's like so funny. And then there's pictures. So she's doing great, but it is a schlep. It is 35 minutes. Each way. It is expensive. It is.1 (20m 28s):So what I am saying is those of us who fucking don't want to be like your neighbor and are like, you know what? I'm going to confront the fact that my dog needs some work and that whatever that we are doing miles and I isn't quite cutting it. And she's not behaving in a way that's going to make her friends like with people or with dogs. What do I do about it? I don't say to other people, it's your fault.2 (20m 52s):Somebody else's fault.1 (20m 54s):I have no goddamn money. I'm spending the money and the time.2 (20m 59s):And there you have hit upon one of the very hardest parts of parenting, which is, and you've talked about this before on the podcast, getting feedback, negative feedback about your child is so demoralizing you at once, feel embarrassed and enraged. You feel enraged with the person. You feel enraged with your kid, for With yourself, for not doing a good enough job, such that this wouldn't be happening. Yeah. It's really, really hard. And everybody has to get to the point that you have already gotten to luckily, which is okay, well, I'm this, the good news is the bad news is I'm the source of this problem.2 (21m 44s):And the good news is I'm also the solution to,1 (21m 46s):I think we don't know how to make a lot of us. We don't know how to make friends. Right? So this lady, instead of being like, oh my God, maybe I should just like, say to people, you know, like she could do so many things. People can do so many. She could send a letter to each person on the block say, look, I have these asshole dogs. I don't know what to do. If you have fucking suggestions, besides euthanizing them, let me know. I would love that. Or can you help me? Or I'm so sorry. They're assholes. I don't know what to do. I'm I'm working on it or I'm stuck. Just let people know. And then you make friends. And then when you walk down the street, people are gonna be like, oh, there's those crazy asshole dogs.1 (22m 29s):Just she's she's trying at least,2 (22m 31s):Right. Yes. There is a universe in which a person has crazy dogs like that. And they allow, first of all, they allow for the rehab. They allow us to acknowledge the reality that it's your crazy dog. I mean, that's, that's the other thing I feel like, I feel like we're stopped at level one, which is she won't acknowledge that her dogs are crazy level two. She won't do something about it. You know,1 (22m 59s):I'd like level one. It's like level one is like you were saying it like it takes some, you got to just really get to the point of being accepted, having acceptance that what things are going to go horribly wrong. And a lot of times it's your fault in some way. And a lot of times it isn't, but they still go wrong. And like, I just, I was talking about this a lot yesterday choice points when we're at choice points. And I think it's really easy to be like, oh, that, you know, people choose bad things to happen to them. I think that's garbage people choose to be with, you know, houseless, garbage. I don't buy that. But what I do buy is I know plenty of people with inner and outer, especially outer resources that don't date.1 (23m 45s):They, they do not meat choice points with any sort of ownership and accountability. So they're just like, they don't have, they think they have no choices, but to be an asshole, it's not true. It's not true many times they're you could have my friend taken a turn neighbor, whoever politician and said, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait, I have a choice here. So it's interesting. It's like, just because there is this sort of bullshit, a Wu movement to like over to like blame the victim. Yeah. That's true. But I think there is also a willingness to excuse behavior because people feel that people are limited.1 (24m 26s):Fuck you limited where you don't like, you know, so there's, there's a line. And I think that we, that the black and white thinking of like, you know, all good, all bad. All everyone chooses everything. It's not, it's just not the way it works. But like, yeah. So I,2 (24m 43s):No, it's not the way it works. You're so your thing recently is all about choice points. My thing is all about dissociation and, and I feel, I think I've hit on in the past. I've always said the reason I don't get along with anybody in my town is like, it's all Puritan and whatever. And that's probably true too, but there's another deeper thing. Because a lot of times I will meet somebody and I was trying to define what's the immediate thing that within seconds of talking to somebody, you can proceed. Cause you feel this is a, this is going to, this might go in a good direction for me it's they don't seem completely dissociated.2 (25m 25s):Right. And people are going to hear that and think, I mean, a bunch of people with multiple personalities, that's not what I1 (25m 31s):Mean. Yeah.2 (25m 34s):I really just mean the kind of person who says, for example, you know, my dogs are not crazy. My dogs are not crazy and my dogs are not crazy or my life is not in shambles. My marriages I'm shambles. My kids are not whatever, like whatever it is, there's a lot of, you know, people have to do so much work to hold up. These myths about themselves and their families and their lives. And I get it because to be in touch with the reality of one's life or one situation is completely overwhelmed.1 (26m 7s):So painful too. It's so painful.2 (26m 11s):It's so painful. But so, but like I need, in order to have a thing with a human, I need to be able to look at them and have some vague semblance that they're not in another, on another planet now. Sometimes I get past that and I, and it's like, okay, but I still just don't like you, right. For whatever reason. But I think that's the majority of the people I encounter in life or in some type of a dissociative place. And maybe it's because of the pandemic and maybe it's because things have been a shit show for the last several years, but that w that thought really clarified for me.2 (26m 51s):Okay. Yeah. This is the, this is like the stumbling block I have with a lot of people. I have a friend right now who, I mean, she's, she's kind of a friend, but she she's one of these people, like the day we met, she started referring to me as her best friend kind of, kind of a thing. And she likes to drink a lot. And so I kind of pulled back on the relationship. And during the pandemic, I had a pretty good reason to, and after that she's been contacting me and she's just not really kind of getting the hint. So I decided to take the opportunity the last time she contacted me to say, well, you know, like things aren't really going that great, like this and this and this, no response, no response, because what she wants for me is to validate the myth that she doesn't drink too much.2 (27m 41s):And that everything is fine in her life. Right. And when I want to talk about how things are not fine, she's not interested.1 (27m 49s):Yeah. That's really a telltale sign. Yeah. I mean, yeah, that it is. Yeah. And then I take it a step further, which is in my brain, which is I get angry because I have lived, I have spent so much time, energy, sweat, and, you know, sweat equity in looking at the painful stuff that I just can't perpetuate the circus show that that it's okay.2 (28m 27s):Well, today we are talking to Glen Davis. Glenn Davis is one of the hardest working busiest people we have ever met. He is the artistic director of Steppenwolf theater in Chicago. He's just closed a production of king James, which had also been a Steppenwolf. He just closed it at the mark taper forum in Los Angeles. He has a production company with Trell, Alvin McCraney, and they've got 10 projects on the slate right now. He's a writer, he's a director, he's a performer, he's a producer. And he is an artistic director. So please enjoy not our, it was just boss, boss, his conversation with Glenn Davis.4 (29m 22s):I gave it to my office. You survive theater school, but mostly I want to ask what's happening with you right now. Tell me what are you doing and what are you feeling and how are you today?5 (29m 34s):Right now? I am doing great. I am doing a play here at, in LA, at the mark taper forum called king James. We have been here for over a month and we closed this Sunday.4 (29m 50s):All right. So here's my question to you. We talked to our first attempt and it goes so well in terms of our tech, but so you went to the theater school. I just finished teaching at a theater school. I don't know if I'm going back. They have a new Dean coming in. Yeah. Who? I had a meeting who asked to have a meeting and she was lovely if you had, I'm asking this5 (30m 11s):Question.4 (30m 12s):Yes. So if you had to go back, would you have gone to a theater conservatory? Would you do it again? Would you go to a conservatory for acting training to5 (30m 24s):Theater school specifically, or just one4 (30m 26s):In general and then to the theater school specifically?5 (30m 30s):Yes. Yes. I would say at the very least, even if I didn't learn anything, I made some of my strongest friendships at the theater school.4 (30m 40s):You, you have, you have not only kept in touch, but you are thriving alongside people that you went to school with. So you would have done done it again. Okay. Favorite? What do you, what kind of art do you want to make my friend? Like, what is your, if you had, I'm asking this to all my, our guests, we just have to someone. And I said like, what are we doing here on this planet? And what kind of art do you want to make?5 (31m 6s):I guess I would say art that is impactful and challenges. Its audiences and challenges are sort of moral and ethical codes. Our identity, our idea of what we think is right or wrong in the world.4 (31m 24s):Can you say more about that?5 (31m 25s):Yeah. I did a play a few seasons ago called downstate and that this does exactly right.4 (31m 33s):Yeah. Intense. Yeah. Intense I side. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's, it's about people that live in like a halfway house.5 (31m 42s):Yeah. They're in a group home. It's five sex offenders who have, who have been released from prison, but into a group home. And so they have to figure out how to, you know, assimilate back into normal society. And you go into that play, you know, with your most folks have, I would imagine, have their own, very strong opinions about sex offenders, you know, pedophiles full stop, you know, and then this play the best way I can explain it is that it makes you reconsider what you think of those people when they, when they sort of visceral level, you, you go in thinking, okay, I know I don't need to explore this.5 (32m 29s):And then you do even just for, you know, this two hour play. And even if it's just a minor shift, it feels like you've gone a far way out of the way to give back maybe to the same place. But you, you know, Bruce Norris wrote this play and he talks about how he wrote the play because he wanted to, he wanted folks to challenge. He wanted to challenge the audience's ability to, to their capacity for forgiveness.4 (32m 59s):Yeah. I mean, I'm obsessed with the idea of who gets to be forgiven and why, and what happens when yeah. People make choices. And I think w you know, working with felons when they got out of prison, I learned that most of us well. Yeah. I, I truly believe that most of us are like one bad choice away. A lot of times from being an exact same position as my clients were in, or as the people in that player. And, and it's not as simple as we think, but, you know, I, yeah, I agree. So, okay. So you want to make that kind of art. Do you feel like you made that kind of art at the theater school at all?4 (33m 40s):Did you,5 (33m 43s):I think at the theater school, I was less concerned with making art and more concerned with managing the cut system. If we had a cut system and then, you know, just being a good actor, it was, it was primarily, primarily about self. It was less about storytelling. I didn't, I don't think I got to that place in my life career until a few, few years out of school. You do some work and you figure out it's not simply about me and how good I am in it, or you know, how much money I'm making.4 (34m 18s):Yeah. Did you, when you did the showcase, did you the show? Okay, so I was just the, the, the kids, the kiddos were just here during the showcase. There was no real showcase in person which sucked this year, but they came to LA and it brought back memories. And so I was going to ask you about your experience. Did you go to New York LA and do Chicago? Okay. What was it like for you? What material do you remember the material you did? And what was the, what was your experience of that in terms of interest reps?5 (34m 51s):I don't remember what scene I did for showcase, but I did, I did do a scene. I remember I was playing, I had a basketball at his house playing basketball at the same time. I should figure out what play that was, but I did that. And then I got, I guess, a healthy amount of interest in New York and LA, and I knew from showcase even before that, that I knew I was, I was leaving Chicago.4 (35m 18s):Okay. This is very exciting to me to, to, so you, you, w w how did you know that, like, when you went there and you did your scene and afterwards, they said, so, and so wants to meet with you or these people, like you, you just, like, I gotta get outta here, or what was the feeling like? My next move is,5 (35m 37s):Well, I was cold in Chicago, so I had just done a Chicago winter, and I wasn't, I was determined not to do another. And I think for a long time, I thought I'd go to New York. What happened was I ended up getting a, managed, signing with a manager here in LA, right out of showcase, and then decided, okay, I'm going to go to LA. And then I booked this other job. It took me to Canada for two years, but I kept my LA manager. And then I moved to LA right after this thing called the Stratford festival.4 (36m 10s):Of course. Yeah. Two years. Yeah. Holy shit. So you went right out of school to Canada. Yeah. Do you, how was that?5 (36m 20s):It was great. It was, it was this sort of things that I didn't anticipate I'd ever do. I didn't even know where Stratford was when I got the job. And so I went into, it was called the Birmingham conservatory for classical theater training at Stratford festival. And so I go up and I studied for 20 weeks in the winter and in Stratford, Ontario. And then you go into the season as an actor. So I was up there for two years4 (36m 52s):And then, okay. So you're doing that for two years where you kept your manager and then what happens after Canada5 (36m 58s):Moved to LA4 (36m 59s):You just straight up moved here? Yup. Okay. And then, and then you back and forth, or you were here for a while. What years are your year here? Youngster. What year was this? Not that long ago.5 (37m 8s):I moved to LA and then I, I was, I think I did submit two thousands. Then I went to New York to do a play. I want to say something like 2008. And then from then on, I started going back and forth between New York and LA. I did that for probably brought till about 2000, 2014, something like that.4 (37m 44s):And then what happened? I'm fascinated. You, you have a story that I don't for theater school grads, that this doesn't usually happen. So usually what we notice is you do the showcase, you pick a place and you stay there for a long time, but you've been moving around. So then, okay. So after you did back and forth, how did you land? I mean,5 (38m 4s):Well, I was living in LA. I had done a play in New York, and so I thought to myself, I wanted to be able to go back and forth. So I still kept my, my home in LA, I guess I call it. And I would just, I got a roommate in New York and I would just go back and forth between the two. And so I did a play in New York in 2008, then I did another in 2011. And, and then I think I will probably let that place go. New York around 2014.4 (38m 38s):Yeah. And then since then, I've just5 (38m 40s):Been, then I was in LA and then I D I went back to Chicago in 2013 to do a play at Steppenwolf. And then I got a place in Chicago. So I replaced my place in New York with a place in Chicago. And I would just go back and forth between Chicago and LA.4 (38m 57s):Okay. So now, now you run the joint with, with a bunch of, with Audrey and probably some help, some other step waltz. W why do you take, why did you take that on, like, what, what, what, what happened there that you were like, this is the next thing I'm like, fascinated by the choices people make. And this was the same with my clients and the same with my characters. I write, like, how does that happen when you're going back and forth from New York or to mostly now, Chicago and LA. Yeah. And then you're like, you're, you were obviously an ensemble member I'm assuming first. Okay. And then what, how does that happen? That, you5 (39m 36s):Know, wow. When I was made ensemble, remember in 2017, I had just done another play a step one side. I think I did like4 (39m 44s):About, you got older.5 (39m 46s):Yeah. You got older. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. And so I did another play called the Christians and had, had a great time. And after that, I, I had started to the other part of my life. I'm a producer in television and film. So I started producing and then it just sort of became natural to me, for me to want to sort of guide projects to fruition. And so when the Steppenwolf job came up and R D Shapiro who brought me into the company announced that she was leaving and the company did a, that the company has a self-imposed mandate that an ensemble member always be the artistic director.4 (40m 31s):I did not know that.5 (40m 32s):Okay. It's only ever been on ensemble. So we did a search within the company and myself and Audrey Francis, who, you know, we got the most votes. And so,4 (40m 44s):Yeah.5 (40m 44s):Yeah. The ensemble bows down, sambal chooses the ensemble, the artistic director.4 (40m 50s):I did not know this. Okay. This is very fascinating to me. Okay. So you got the most votes and why two people, like, did they, has it ever been to at the same time,5 (41m 0s):If it has there's rumors that it was two before this there's only ever been two in a formalized setting, formalized situation. And so we decided to do it together because it's such a huge job. And both of us are actors. Yeah. Audrey is also a director. I am a producer. And so we thought, you know, to do this job, you know, most times it's directors, because, you know, it affords them the ability to still have their career outside of it for an actor. If you're running the theater. And like right now, I'm in Los Angeles doing king James.5 (41m 41s):Yeah. Then it, it, who, who do, who does staff go to? Who, who, who sort of running, steering the ship while I'm away or the counterpart is away. So we said, okay, if there's two of us that we can sort of outline in any given year that as long as one of us is on campus, one of us is steering the ship to the garden at any given time. Then there's a version of the second work. So we, we, we decided together that we would, we would pitch ourselves together instead of one of us doing it. And so the ensemble loved it and the board thought it was a great idea. And so they contracted both of us. And so here we are.4 (42m 22s):And does it go on forever and ever until you get sick of it,5 (42m 26s):We have to let them know we do, we do contracts. And so before the contract ends, you let them know, Hey, I want to stay on it, or I want to,4 (42m 36s):How's it going?5 (42m 37s):It's going4 (42m 38s):Right. Do you like it?5 (42m 40s):I love it. Is it4 (42m 40s):Hard?5 (42m 41s):Oh yeah. Yeah. It's hard.4 (42m 43s):It's fulfilling.5 (42m 45s):Very,4 (42m 45s):Yeah. Okay. Do you have any time to do anything? Do you, do you, you must because you're here. So you have, but you do a lot of things. So I guess my next question is how do you do a lot of things and managed to not lose your mind?5 (43m 0s):What I would say that I'm a big planner. I have a lot of help. Obviously. I have assistance. I partners, turtle album McCraney, who my, I wasn't mentioning before4 (43m 15s):That is to school together,5 (43m 17s):Went to school together. Yeah. And he is my best friend in the world. Also my producing partner,4 (43m 23s):Brilliant boat. But yeah, you're both very brilliant human.5 (43m 26s):Thank you. I appreciate that. And so we have a production company based here in LA and we're in an overall deal at universal. And so we, we, that's a partnership and we have a team, a very strong team that we produce television and film. And then at Steppenwolf, I have Audrey, who's the best partner one can ask for. And we, we, we together manage through all the, the things that are going on and step off. So, and then, you know, when I'm going to do a play, yeah. I'm constantly in communication with her constantly communication with Tarell about all the things that we're doing.4 (44m 7s):Oh my God. So I guess the communication is, is really the key. Okay. My question is, what would you say to like the students and my young students who are like, what kind of world am I walking into? What, in the entertainment industry, how can I take ownership over my career? What the fuck do I do? I always like to be whatever you're doing, something's going right in your career. So, which is great. And I'm not saying it doesn't take a tremendous amount of work, but I'm also saying, is there any tips or like how to manage this life? You've graduated. You've just, like you said, like, you want to, you want to make it, you want to, you, you want to earn money, want to pay the rent and still make good art.4 (44m 56s):How the fuck do you do that?5 (45m 0s):Well, you're saying w what advice I would give. Right. I would say the, one of the first questions you asked was, you know, LA or Chicago, or, you know, I would say pick the place that you'd like to live. Like a lot of times people go, oh, I got to go to LA. If I want a career, you don't have to do that anymore. You can be in London, you'll be in Toronto. You can be in new Orleans, you can Chicago. So I would Fe I would say, go to the place that makes you happiest, makes you feel like the best version of yourself or some approximation of it. And then sort of sit down. I always look at my life in terms of five-year goals and plans.5 (45m 40s):What do I want, what I want my life to look like in the next five years. And so sit down and make a plan. If that's to be a series regular on a TV show, then put all of your efforts towards that. If it's to be, you know, a Broadway actor, then, you know, you know, there's a path to that, presumably. So I would say, make a plan and take some risks. You know, they might not always be comfortable, but you go out and you say, at least for, at least for me, I've, I've learned the most about myself. And I really taken a risk. And lastly, I would say, particularly for actors become, you know, did this happen by happenstance with me, but my best friend in the world is a writer and a very accomplished yeah,4 (46m 28s):Yeah. Like not, yeah, no slouch like a brilliant one of the most brilliant. Yeah.5 (46m 33s):And, and I've because of that, I've, you know, our partnership I've been in almost every one of his plays I've, we've created together. He's making things for me. I would say, if you can find a creative partner partnership or ships, you know, Rajiv, Joseph is another friend of mine who we're very close friends, we've done two plays together. Now we're doing TV shows together. Like find those folks that you're like, I just like being in partnership with you. And let's, you know, it might take five, 10 years to create something together, but let's start the conversation.4 (47m 9s):Did you know that immediately at school, that these folks were going to, cause there's also, isn't there a woman that you also are close with, that you met?5 (47m 17s):Yeah. Alana arenas is my other best tool in a lot of my two best friends in the world. Okay.4 (47m 21s):Okay. So did you know at the, at school, at the theater school where you immediately, like, I ha I love these books and I want to make art with them, or how did5 (47m 30s):That? No, I don't. I don't think cause Tara wasn't a writer at the time. He was, he was an actor and a theater school a year ahead of me and Atlanta was two years ahead of me. And, but they just, they were home. I met them and I just said, oh, you're my person. And so those two have been in my life for the last, you know, 20 however many years. And those are proud. I've worked with them several times over and over. They're both supremely talented Alana was on Tyrrell's TV show called David makes man. And she was amazing in it. So I think that, yeah, I just found them as people interesting and you know, beautiful people inside and out and they just so happen to be, you know, supremely talented, but I didn't go into it looking for them like, who do I like?5 (48m 21s):You know? So that's, that's essentially what it was. You.4 (48m 25s):Okay. What kind of, you said you want to make art, like, do you, is it more that the medium doesn't matter as much as the story in terms of TV versus being in a F or working on films or working on television? Or what, what is, do you have a favorite or are you just open to telling good stories, whatever form it takes? Are you that kind of a,5 (48m 46s):Yeah, I think it's the, the ladder. They're very different forms to work in as an actor. I'm doing a play right now, obviously. Yeah. I get a fulfillment that I don't get in producing television and film, but also in television and film, I get a, a fulfillment there as well, where I'm the, I have, my voice means is, is hugely meaningful in the room. If it's not me making the final decision on something, you know, very close to the, the, the folks in the room who are making those final decisions. So as an actor, you're, you're coming to be a cog in a wheel, you know, or you're there to service the story in film and TV as a producer, at least you're, you're get the engine you're, you're providing the platform or the, the landscape for artists to come in and tell their stories.5 (49m 44s):So it's a very different fulfillment that, you know, being in one in the other. And so I love them, both. Yeah. Theater is, is where I come from from first fell in love with storytelling and the art and the craft.4 (49m 58s):W I can't remember. I know that your family is not, it's more of a political family, right? Yeah.5 (50m 2s):And in terms of politics in Chicago.4 (50m 3s):Yeah. Yeah. So, but not so not theater so much. Okay. And then how did you end up doing theater since you said theaters5 (50m 12s):You're I was on the basketball team in high school. That's right.4 (50m 14s):Then you realized,5 (50m 16s):Yeah. Yeah. I realized I just audition audition for a play randomly. And I thought, oh wow, this is, I can do this. And so I gave up sports or basketball and she said, my, I thought, I thought at the time I had a burgeoning basketball career.4 (50m 31s):But if you did, though, you must have had a co I mean, what you were, you said you loved it and you were good at it. You just didn't think you were good enough.5 (50m 41s):Yeah. I don't even think at the time I knew if I was good enough. And I probably had all the bravado that any young4 (50m 47s):Men5 (50m 48s):That I could go to the NBA, but I just fell in love with theater. I fell in love with the art form and, you know, later studying it at DePaul at other places, setting Shakespeare. I just thought I can do this for the rest of my life. So.4 (51m 6s):Oh. And you knew it, right? Yeah. Okay. Well, there you go. So you knew it. Okay. And then if you had to like, like the next thing you want to do, like you have, are you doing exactly? I talked to people sometimes and they're doing exactly what they want to do, or they're excited. Or sometimes they're like, no, I want to pivot. And in a year, like we talk about, you talked about five years, so what's your five-year, what do you want to do in five years in your five-year plan? Do you have any grant?5 (51m 33s):Yeah. Well, I think that a big part of my artistic life right now is stepping up is I'm leading the company. There are some things that industry-wide, that I would love to see changed.4 (51m 46s):I want to know what they are,5 (51m 48s):Where there's a, there's a long list4 (51m 50s):With one5 (51m 54s):More pay equity for, for people in the arts theater theater specifically. There's, there's just not, you know, you can't, most of us cannot live, let alone thrive on a theater salary. So we'd love to change that diversity equity inclusion is very important to me getting more people involved, who don't, who historically have not been a part of the theater community. I think doing king James has been sort of eye opening for me because so many people have come because they love basketball. They love LeBron, or they love sports.5 (52m 35s):And now they're, you know, they're coming to a play and they go with some of the first play I've ever been to. And I loved it. So I think there's a lot, a lot of work there to do.4 (52m 46s):And do you feel like the word beat with the pandemic and everything? Have you, have you been able to start diet? Like, are you diving in now or are you, were you in the, when did you start take over you and Andre?5 (52m 60s):Our first day was as artistic director was September 1st, 2021.4 (53m 7s):Yeah. Okay. And now what's happening? The seagull happened? No.5 (53m 13s):Yeah, we just, we just closed the seagull. It was, it was our first theater in the,4 (53m 19s):The new spaces. Is it gorgeous?5 (53m 22s):Or it's, it's, it's all I walk into it and I'm just blown away. And I actually get very excited about one day being able to perform in that theater. But it's this beautiful in the round space that is state of the art, these wonderfully resonant acoustics. It is. Yeah. It's, it's a playground. I love that. I love that space, but yeah, we just opened our first play. We opened, there was the seagull, an adaptation of checkoffs, the seagull by Yassin playing golf and he wrote and directed it and it, it was fantastic.5 (54m 3s):And yeah. So now that now that theater is open,4 (54m 7s):Are you, do you have any things exciting that are probably a million things that are happening, but like television or film wise or for you, or, oh yeah. Or your company or anything that, you know, what's happening.5 (54m 21s):We have step move, just announced this new season. So the false will start, well, we'll have that season, beginning, this fall that we're excited about. So the first season that Audra and I were able to curate ourselves, so that's exciting.4 (54m 39s):What does that mean? Like you're in charge. Like you have to plan the whole shit or like, so like, if you have all the plays out there, you have a literary person I'm sure. And they say, okay, this is all on the table. Yeah. And then you read them all and then does lively debate ensued what happened? Okay.5 (54m 57s):We have an artistic team that we go back and forth over place and we decide, you know, obviously it's4 (55m 4s):No.5 (55m 5s):Yeah. We announced our season April, I think. Okay.4 (55m 8s):What are you super excited? I'm married. You're probably out. So a little bit more. Okay. Do we know if you are going to be in them? Can5 (55m 15s):You be, or you4 (55m 17s):Can't. Okay.5 (55m 18s):I, I don't know just yet. I just don't know, like4 (55m 24s):Deciding.5 (55m 25s):Yeah, sure. Yeah. It's possible. Yeah.4 (55m 27s):That's going to be exciting and you're playing closes. And then when you leave here to go back to Chicago,5 (55m 32s):I leave here I go on vacation and then I'll go back to Chicago. And then I do a play in the fall called well downstate. Oh yeah. We do that in New York in the fall. And then we have Trella and I have 10 TV series that are in development. Yeah. Yeah.4 (55m 55s):Totally crap. Congratulations.5 (55m 58s):Very much. So4 (55m 60s):Tenancy develop, I guess that's how it works. Wow. Wow. Good for you.5 (56m 5s):So what looks to go into production on one later this year? And yeah, we're pitching shows always. And so that's, most of my days are, you know, pitching shows, working on development with our executives at universal and managing the theater. So picking plays really4 (56m 26s):Plays very full5 (56m 28s):Life and doing a play.4 (56m 29s):Do you love your life?5 (56m 31s):Yeah, I love it. Wow.4 (56m 32s):Okay. Do you re we, we were just had I'm in a book club and we were talking about regret. Do you believe in, what's your idea when someone says to you, what do you think about regrets? Do you have them, do you think it's bullshit? Do you think that regret is good? Because it makes us, we had a lively discussion about regret the other night here at the office.5 (56m 51s):What was the consensus?4 (56m 52s):Well, some people are like, no, there's no such thing as regret because in the moment you do the best you can with the choices you have. But I actually think regret has been helpful for me because things like I regret that I didn't do certain things. It's not about judgment for me. It's more about like, I'm S maybe it's sadness. I don't know. I regret that, like my mom and I never talked about X before she passed. Right. Or, but I don't say, and I'm an asshole because of that. I just say, I regret that. But other people are saying, no, no regrets, like live your life with no regrets. I don't know. Where do you fall on this? I don't know.5 (57m 28s):I think that, I think for all honest with ourselves, there, there are things that may be in our past that we wrapped that we maybe wish we had not done done in that same way. That's the sort of notion of a regret. You know, you wish you made a different choice to varying degrees, but I think that at least when most people say, because I understand the notion of, Hey, there's no regrets. You, you had to make the choice you were going to make to be the person that you go to. You're going to be, I get it. So I think that, I think more to the point for me is there are regrets. You just have to live with them. You just have to learn to live with them. And, you know, all of us decide or make a, make a choice of how we're going to sort of, how do you say it is a word I'm looking for, but how you sort of assimilate all your choices into your person,4 (58m 25s):Integrate that and like, become like accept them or like the least own them, maybe.5 (58m 32s):Okay. I did that. It is what it is. it is what it is. I think you're saying it is what it is. It didn't turn out in my favor, but you know, w what else was I going to do? Ah,4 (58m 43s):That brings me to my final. I'll let you, but what was your, her a bit of as a human, but like, what do you do when things don't go your way? How do you, cause I think a lot of people that listen to the podcast are coping with like regret and also rejection. And when things don't go your way, whatever that means, how do you as a person, as an artist, however you want to answer it, how do you get back up how do you, how do you keep going?5 (59m 13s):Yeah, I think that I learned this, this trick oh, years ago, where I go and I thought to myself, I'm never going to, whenever I auditioned for, yeah, I am. I am, I will not covet it. I will do everything in my power not to covet it so that if, and when I don't get it, which he usually don't, you didn't lose anything. It was never yours4 (59m 35s):Coveting as it is an interesting word there. Right. Cause it's like, it means sort of to try to clench or hold onto or grasp and like control. All right. So you say that to yourself?5 (59m 47s):Yeah. It gives me a sense of relaxation, relaxation going into the room. Look, if I get it and it could be, life-changing awesome. But if it doesn't, my life is where it is today. Awesome.4 (59m 58s):Part of the thing that I noticed with you is like that you've built such an awesome life anyway, that like stuff will add to it if something mindblowing comes along, but it's not as though it's the only thing going on. Right? So like you have so much going on that you seem to love that if you don't get book a job, it's not going to make the whole house fall down. Right? Like it's not the whole entirety of who you are as an artist.5 (1h 0m 21s):Yeah. This is, this goes back to an experience I had when I first moved to LA, I was in, I was a, an intern at a casting office and that's something I would actually suggest actors recommended they do because you get to see what the other side looks like. And I remember being in there and this, this guy comes in for this audition. He's just Emmy nominated actor at the time. And he has like four page monologue. And I'm reading with him, he's reading through it. He looks down at the pages maybe twice. And he got it the night before. So he did this enormous amount of work. He's reading through it. I'm looking down at the page, just trying to remember it. And I've just have one line of course responses.5 (1h 1m 1s):And he finished it. He is brilliant. He4 (1h 1m 3s):Finishes it.5 (1h 1m 4s):He did a fantastic job. He's brilliant. He gets up right away and says, well, look, thank you all. Thank you all so much and have a nice weekend or whatever. Yeah. He didn't linger. He didn't say, do you need more? He didn't say, Hey, how4 (1h 1m 20s):You know,5 (1h 1m 22s):He just left out and he did not. It seemed like something else was pulling him out of the room.4 (1h 1m 29s):Other5 (1h 1m 31s):Life, something, something else, this wasn't everything he goes out. And the director, I mean the, the casting director, there's, there's just this hush for about 10 seconds, which is a long time after somebody leaves a room after auditioning and it's all executives in the room and me and the cats. And he says the casting director, she says, the casting director says, that's why he's immune nominated. And then there's another beat or two. And then the, the lead executive says, yeah, but he's not right.5 (1h 2m 11s):And so that was it. And so what it taught me was even if you go in with, in your, you're doing all the right things, you're playing all the right beats are the guy. There's a version of that show in which he was fantastic and went on to write awards and4 (1h 2m 27s):Things,5 (1h 2m 28s):But he wasn't right in their estimation. So it took the pressure off of me of trying to have to be4 (1h 2m 33s):Right for everything. Like we can't be right for everything5 (1h 2m 37s):Not going to be right.4 (1h 2m 37s):And what's not, ours is not ours. Like you're saying like, you can covet something all you want, but if it's not meant for me, it's not coming to me,5 (1h 2m 45s):But it mattered to him no less because he still went in and knock their socks off as an actor. And that's the narrative that comes out of that room is that he wasn't right. But wow, he's brilliant. I can't wait to, he is right for the right for,4 (1h 2m 58s):And also it had quite an effect on you. And now you're telling me this story and then it'll be told on the podcast. And so it's, it matters, right? Like it's a ripple effect. So he might not have been right for that part. You know, there's a friend of mine is a casting director and she always says, you probably know her Mickey Paskal on Chicago. And she says, not yet for the person. So it is not, no, it is not there, Terry, you know, she said, not yet, it's not yours yet. Not yet for you. Not yet. And I love that because it, it sort of implies that something's coming. We just don't know when. And we just don't know what it looks like specifically, but just not yet. And I was like, oh, it's such a more, oh, it's like an open way to look at these jobs rather than just like you did with the, it's just not right for it.4 (1h 3m 45s):He, he was brilliant. And then, like you said, there's a version of that show with him in it, but this is not this one. Yeah. And so it's, I, I think that that's great. And I, I think young actors really need to hear that, which is not yet. And you're not going to be right for everything you can't be.5 (1h 4m 1s):Yeah. It took a lot of pressure off me to have to be perfect. And I just started relaxing and just, you know what, I'm gonna do the best job, my version of this, this character. And then if I get it awesome, if I don't, I haven't lost anything. Yeah.4 (1h 4m 15s):And I think, I think what I'm getting just from this, from this interview too, is that idea of building a life with that is full of things that I, or anyone loves to do. Not just one thing. So that if, if one thing doesn't go in one area, doesn't go like perfectly. I could still be like, thank you, have a great day. I'm going to go out and live my life. That is like really dope over here. I have family, I have whatever the things are. Great. So you're not dependent on this one. Yes. To like be okay, but I think it's, it's yeah.5 (1h 4m 51s):It's hard to find you to find your happiness. It's4 (1h 4m 53s):Just like a part of your day, right? Like it's one part of your day. And then you go on and do your things and have your conference calls with Steppenwolf and whatever, eat a sandwich or whatever. So5 (1h 5m 3s):Remember this one or from one friend of mine years ago said, I look at auditions as my one opportunity to act that day or to perform or to tell a story. And I had my two minutes, I go in and I do it and then I'll let it go. And I throw away the sides. And I, I, I go home.4 (1h 5m 19s):I mean, I think that's great. Like I think, I think taking the pressure off and also, right, it's sort of what I call, like right-sizing things, you know, like I've, I I've said before I got into rooms, like I have seen the face of hell and this is not it we're going to go in and we're gonna do it. All right. So I will let you go because you're very, you're very busy and you have a lot of things going on, but I, I just want to thank you. And I also want to say, like, I have a lot of hope. I mean, I, I love Audrey and now I adore you. And I think that the American theater has a real opportunity. The, one of the things that I'm noticing, especially in the whole two weeks that we've had in terms of the Supreme court, that w we have a lot of opportunity, like, things are really, really hard and terrible, but I also think that anytime there's something really terrible, there's also an opportunity for the counterpoint to that.4 (1h 6m 12s):So I'm hoping with the American theater and art in general, perhaps that maybe we can be part of that counterpoint of all the terrible shit that's going on. And I'm hoping that stepping Wolf, I can't wait to see, I'm going to see what the season is, is going to, you don't have to tell me what the season is. I'll look it up. I think you and Audrey should be in all the plays and that's probably not going to happen, but, but no, I am hopeful. I am still hopeful. Are you still hopeful about things?5 (1h 6m 38s):Absolutely. Yeah. I wouldn't do it if I wasn't, it's it's not a job you want to take on with a sense of hopelessness. You have to really believe in the, in the sort of prospects of the artists involved in the sort of theater landscape itself.4 (1h 6m 54s):And since you, do you think the same holds true for like film and television? Are you still hopeful?5 (1h 6m 58s):Yeah. Filming film and television have this thing, that theater doesn't and that's called money. So whether you're, you know, I know a lot of folks who are on TV shows who are, you know, maybe not creatively inspired, you know, we've heard that story a lot, but they're getting there. You know, if, if it's, if it's an exchange of dividends for their time, then they're being paid in comparison to their counterparts in other industries they're being paid handsomely. And so that brings you a sense of happiness versus a fulfilling.4 (1h 7m 29s):Yeah. I didn't help your family and you can at least two. So that's true. Like, I think that that's, yeah. We seem to have found a mix of the things that you love and are important to you. And I think that that's something that, that is, that is brilliant, that we don't see a lot. So I say, keep, keep on. I mean, of course you're going to keep on, but thank you for talking to5 (1h 7m 48s):Me.3 (1h 7m 58s):If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable ink production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina cheat, or the co-hosts this episode was produced, edited, and sound mixed by Gina for more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc. Please visit our website@undeniablewriters.com. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you.

Intro: teenage hackersLet Me Run This By You: setting limits with KanyeInterview: We talk to Josh Sobel about Cal Arts, Travis Preston, Yale School of Drama, Robert Brustein, Fig and the Wasp, Oberlin College, The O'Neill Theater Center, Michael Cadman, Royal Shakespeare Company, Chicago ensemble theatre, Strawdog Theatre Company, Ianesco's Rhinoceros, Rochester NY, Brighton High School, A Chorus Line, Cabaret, horizontal hierarchies, The Wooster Group, change talk vs. change action, Chris Ackerlind, Light in the Piazza, Paula Vogel's Indecent, Samantha Behr, Haven Chicago, The Den Theater, Rochester Philharmonic, Lorenzo Palomo, Ian Martin, Hal Prince, Dr. Seuss' The Sneetches, John de Lancie, Rochester Academy of Medicine, radiation oncology, The Xylophone West by Alex Lubischer, Isaac Gomez's The Displaced, Center Theatre Group, Jeremy O'Harris' Slave Play, Rashaad Hall, Chris Jones' review of Ms. Blakk for President.FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):3 (10s):And I'm Gina Pulice.1 (11s):We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it.3 (15s):20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.1 (21s):We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?2 (32s):I think, I think my son has fig he's gotten into sort of like the hacking side of things and he always wants to get around all of the restrictions we put on him. Like we have content restrictions, we have time limits. And I think he's just made it his mission. I mean, this is like the theme of his life. He has made it his mission to subvert the paradigm as my husband would say. And it's exhausting because all I can do is try to be like 10 steps behind them and learn like what's a VPN. That's what I, I think what he did. I think he installed a VPN to bypass the internet control that I have.2 (1m 20s):Oh1 (1m 20s):My God.2 (1m 22s):And it somehow how that relates to, I can watch, I couldn't tell you. I can tell you that if I turn off the wifi, I can watch it on my cellular data.4 (1m 33s):It's insane.2 (1m 35s):Yeah. It's, it's beyond insane. I, and you know, I like, I'm always on this thing where I'm vacillating between letting it go and just trying harder to, you know, impose the limit. I mean, you, I wouldn't, before I had kids, I would not have imagined it was this hard to impose limits on people, you know, because you don't want them to not have what they want. Right.4 (2m 6s):Right.2 (2m 7s):And, and it's a real battle to like, make myself, give myself and my children limits. It's really hard.4 (2m 17s):My God. Yeah. Yeah. And the other thing I'm stuck on, it's like maybe there was okay. I think I'm like trying to figure out the thing, which is like, I know what I think I know what happened. So you have restrictions on content. Like, and I think a genius, the Kanye trilogy, like completely has all those triggers in it. Like all the things are in it. There's sex, suicide. There's, there's, it's all the things you, I wouldn't want a susceptible teenager to watch. Right. Like just for various reasons, not, not for anything other than triggers. Right. So like my nieces and nephew, the same thing, so, okay.4 (2m 57s):So then you set that right? And you're like, no, no, but then the kid or anyone can get a VPN, which then resets, I think the con, but I think you're still on the, you're still, you're still on the content warning site, which is blocking genius. You from watching genius. That is fucking, I mean, it's kind of genius in a way, but it's also so infuriating. It's like, come on, dude. I'm just trying to watch my fucking Kanye west bullshit.2 (3m 26s):It's literally just this race of like today I'm on top. And then the next day it's like, oh my God, they, they, they run the show. I'll never forget. There was a scene in the first season of the Sopranos where Tony and Carmel are having a problem with Anthony, or maybe it was with the daughter, a meadow and they're in their bedroom. And he goes, if she finds out, we have no power. We're screwed. And I laughed. It was the time I had watched it after I had teenagers. Yeah. Like that's what it is. We actually have no power. And yet the, the, the con that we're forced to do is pretend like we have all the power.2 (4m 12s):It's4 (4m 13s):Like2 (4m 13s):Covering4 (4m 14s):A metaphor also for life about like my mom's friend sent me something that said, you know, I forget it was like her friend had passed away and it's not fair and it's not fair. And I, and it isn't, and that's the thing. Like it, the truth is not fair. Like it sucks. But like, and, and we pretend that things are fair because if we don't, it's absolute chaos. Like if we didn't pretend really that red means stop and green means go, we'd have a real fucking problem. If we all rebelled and said, you know what, fuck you, green means go. And red means stop. And we all sent a mass media thing around.4 (4m 56s):There would be chaos. It would be2 (5m 13s):The bus. And I guess that's just the headline right there. That's like the headline in the story. Like you took the bus from LA to San Fran, Fran, because gas is so expensive.4 (5m 22s):Well, many things. Okay. So driving, it's really a grind on the five coming home, especially it's like, so rough, like, it can be a nine hour instead of five, six hours situation. It's crazy. Cause the five sucks. So, so that was the first like, and then gas. So I wasn't gonna drive cause I did the drive Thanksgiving and it was like, oh God. And then, so I was like, okay, well I'll, I'll just, I I'll fly. But then I'm afraid to fly. Even though the flight is literally 45 minutes. And then I was like, okay, but then because of gas, I said, okay, I'm going to just get my balls into it. I'm going to build up my balls and I'm going to fly. But then because of gas, you know, does jets use gas fuel though?4 (6m 6s):The flights really went up six San Francisco. You shouldn't even get a flight for a hundred bucks on Southwest round trip, like 120. No, no, two 20. So I'm like, oh no. So then I say, okay, well I'll take my Amtrak. Of course, which is actually what I, what I looked at first. But the track of it, it's a beautiful ride. It takes forever, but it goes up the coast and it's gorgeous. And you can like bid to get a fancy room,2 (6m 28s):Right? Yeah.4 (6m 29s):Well, okay. Well the tracks being repaired, so then you'd have to take a Greyhound. I'm not taking a Greyhound. So then I was like, okay, what would it take a fancy bus? And it's a flick2 (6m 38s):Of a fancy4 (6m 39s):Flex bus flicks. And Flix is big in Europe and they're charter buses and they have bathrooms and it's like assigned seating. And I bought two seats because I was like, fuck you. And it's so inexpensive, but still listen. I just, you know, and I worked, my dad was an addict. I have food addict issues. I get addicts. So don't come. People don't come at me for saying this. But the bus is a place where heroin, heroin, addicts thrive. Like that2 (7m 9s):Is the heroin addict doing on the4 (7m 11s):Bus nodding out. So there's two, there was a couple and I was like, oh, these are heroin addicts. They just looked so like, their luggage was all fucked up. They couldn't barely get on the bus. They were fighting young people, LA style tattoos. Fine. I am tattoos. It's not that they, but it was like this very specific look thin bedraggled, but not, not, not a curated look like more like, I'm just fucked up inappropriate clothing for the weather. Like big. Although in San Francisco is cold. Maybe they need something. I didn't know. They had like heavy coats on it's like 90 degree, all their shit. Right? Like they're, you know, I've got one little carrier. They've got like bags, like big things.4 (7m 52s):Okay. And that you can check, but you have to pay more for it. And their suitcases are falling apart. Okay. Fine. But they have cell phones, which is so, but a lot of people have cell phones. I mean, I I'm always shocked when people have cell phones that look like they shouldn't, I'm like, what? How do you maintain that? But anyway, so they get on an immediate, they sit in the, they got the seats in the way back, which is like a little bigger, but also your brother bathroom's gross, but they just not out immediately. They get on and like midfoot, mid fighting. They just like pass out and I'm like, oh my God. Like not out like out. And then don't wake up until we get there. Like literally it's an eight hour ride.4 (8m 32s):They don't get up at all.2 (8m 35s):Wow. They'd probably been awake. Yeah. Or I guess maybe not4 (8m 41s):How2 (8m 42s):It works with the4 (8m 42s):Heroin. Well, it depends like, I mean,2 (8m 44s):Not the heroin.4 (8m 46s):That's my new band name. That's our new band name. The heroin's got mics on two levels.2 (8m 51s):Yeah,4 (8m 53s):That was good. Gina. Okay. So no for me and my, my, my clients were a lot of them on heroin. And what would happen is like, you can't always get heroin. Right. Because it's expensive. And because I mean, it's cheaper than whatever, but it's expensive. And then, so you go without it and you start to detox and then you're up, you can't sleep. You're a mess. And then when you finally score again or whatever, get your heroin, then you just feel great for about half an hour. Then you pass out. It's just so it's such a waste, but okay. It's a process.2 (9m 25s):You know, although I would never want to be a heroin addict. I will say something like what's occurring to me. As you're talking about this couple is like, you know how with addicts, their life is very focused around just scoring or whatever. So to be able to have your life goals in these little chunks is really appealing to me.4 (9m 47s):Yeah. Well, it's a very, very, very specified job2 (9m 52s):World. Right? You make, I think when you're a heroin addict, you must have a really small world and your objectives are like, get score. That's at a place to4 (10m 1s):Sleep and don't get arrested and don't2 (10m 3s):Get, don't get arrested. Like there's something and I, I'm sorry to be cheeky about it. Cause people have really suffered with heroin addiction. I, I'm not suggesting that people, anybody should be an addict. I'm just saying like the idea4 (10m 14s):Yeah. To you. It's like, yeah, me too.2 (10m 17s):Actually even just the other day I was thinking I was watching somebody who had, what I imagined was probably a minimum wage job. And I don't remember what the job was now, but I just, I was looking at the person doing their tasks and I was thinking, yeah, maybe I should get a job like that. You know? And then 30 seconds in, I'm really trying to imagine myself. And I'm like, what am I talking about? Oh, people don't love working at McDonald's. Don't love, you know, whatever the4 (10m 47s):Jobs. And I will in, in adulthood in 30 dumb, in 40 dumb, like the last one I had at that fucking donut shop, I was like, oh, this seemed quaint. The chef was a jerk. I got in like a fight with the chef was so rude. Like here I am 42, right. Or 43 or something. And I was working at this place in Rogers park for like cash only under the table owned by these two young SIRS. They, whatever their business was working. But like the fucking chef was like talking shit about me. Like,2 (11m 23s):Is that a doughnut chef? No,4 (11m 28s):I should have said that. No, they also serve sandwiches. That's brilliant. That's brilliant. I was2 (11m 33s):Just thinking to myself, like, do you have to be a chef?4 (11m 36s):No, that's hilarious. But she was like, or they were, they were talking shit about me. And I was like, oh no, no, no. And I was basically volunteering there. I was so outraged. I was like This person that2 (11m 51s):To read an essay about that, you've got, write an essay about your donut shop stint.4 (11m 55s):Oh, I will. And I want to name names. They were fucking assholes. And also they, like, when I went to confront the PR, like I was like, I like when you walk behind someone you're supposed to stay behind. Right. But if you've never worked in the restaurant industry that does not come naturally. And also I'm really fast moving. So like I just met, she goes, you have to stay behind. And I was like, oh my God, I'm gonna fucking kill you. And then she would under her breath talk shit to me about to the other people. And so, and so I finally, you get them, you get them every time, this way. So I pulled the owner aside and I was really upset, like crying because she was treating me like shit. And I said, listen, what the fuck is this? And then the next, the person wanted to then that the owner was like, look, this lady is doing as a favor by working here basically because we have no one and she's working on under the table.4 (12m 42s):So then the, the, the person wanted to talk to me, the chef and I talked to her, I'm like what? She goes, I'm sorry. If I come off a little, I go, oh no, no, you don't come off. You are. And I said, I don't know what's happening here. I'm like, just try to do my job and go the fuck home and make my money to pay my cell phone bill, bitch. Like I wrote that and then I just quit. I was like, fuck all. Y'all. So, no, it sounds really quaint, which is why I fucking get those jobs. And then you get in there and you're like, oh, this is how on earth.2 (13m 11s):Oh God, I am sure it was, I4 (13m 15s):Don't do2 (13m 15s):It. Yeah, no, no, I won't. I will not do it. It just, it just periodically, it just occurred to me4 (13m 20s):Because there's a set skill set set of tasks that no one eat you ma I imagine that no one is like on their high horse. No, no. People are still on their fucking high horse in minimum wage jobs. There's a hierarchy of fucking assholes anywhere you've.2 (13m 37s):But then I did get to watch the third episode of the Kanye documentary and then, okay, well, I didn't finish it though. I'm only like 20 minutes into it. It's so sad. Right? It's going to go on. It's going to turn4 (13m 50s):It. It does. But in also in an unexpected way, what I will say, I think we should talk about the third episode next time. Okay.2 (13m 58s):But4 (13m 59s):The first two, for me, fucking amazing in the storytelling, whether, regardless of how I feel about Kanye west, which I don't feel any kind of way other than, I mean, I just, I I'm talking about the, since we're about to make a documentary, right? Like I'm looking at, I love the first two. I love cooties filmmaking. And the first two episodes, it then takes a turn on the third, but like the first two are so packed with information and visuals and, and storytelling.4 (14m 39s):Like, I loved it. You and you also get a S he such a great job of like showing a slice of time, you know, and, and, and all the characters in it and real life people we know and get glimpses of. And I just thought, and for me, the most moving part of it, I mean, I have real lot of feelings about Donda and Connie's relationship and Donda herself. I have a lot of diagnoses for both of them, but I'm not, you know, like, I feel like she's got bipolar. Like, I think there's a whole thing going on there, but what I found, I have never, I have never been so moved for, for the hustle and the perseverance of a human being and the just sort of neutral and unwavering.4 (15m 32s):We know it's not really true, but like they're like, but the unwavered, what I saw was an unwavering unshakable, almost naive belief in oneself.2 (15m 42s):This is what I wanted to talk to you about. This is what I wanted to run by you. Cause the, the connection between talking about that, me working on the documentary and, and this a, I agree with you, Cody is an amazing documentarian. And we could totally learn a lot from the way that he weaved his own personal story into that, his relationship with this, you know, mega personality. But yeah, you know, the scene where he's talking to a bunch of kids and he's, he's talking about self-compassion, I mean, he, he has a point, you know, what, what should you, you created an amazing piece of art and somebody compliments you on it and you you're supposed to pretend like you're dumb.2 (16m 29s):You all, you don't agree that it's, that it's amazing. You know, like there's something to be said for that. And there's something to be said for what you're just describing the unshakable confidence, but I want to hear what your thoughts are about their relationship.4 (16m 45s):It was interesting to watch the process of what I would call a simultaneous process of infantilizing him as well as idolizing him as well as parental defying him, as well as believing in him. It's a combo platter. And I believe from watching her and watching what I noticed in her mannerisms and his that I think they both had a mania thing going on, like in her eyeballs. So I have become really good at looking at people's eyeballs.4 (17m 26s):And I notice in the documentary, as it goes along when Kanye is manic, his voice goes up in pitch and his eyeballs looked different and she had this eyeball situation, which is this sort of darty, Desperate eyeballs. And I noticed it in my clients all the time and I'd be like, oh, they're manic, they're manic. It's not an, and it's like, hypomania, it's not for her. But like, I saw that in her. And I was like, oh, like, what's happening? Where am I going? What's happening? Who can I okay. And, and covered with a bit of like, you know, self-help, you can do it this and perseverance, but it's, it's all a combo platter, but that was my take.4 (18m 15s):What was on their relationship was like a, I need you, you need me, what's happening. I'm worried about you, but I'm going to then hope that by, by really pumping you up, that I'm going to pump up the mental illness away.2 (18m 31s):. Yeah. Well, I, I agree with what you say about the, their relationship, their dynamic, and it makes sense that yeah, maybe she had a touch of the bipolar too. What I was thinking about it is, and like I say, I haven't gotten through the third episode, but what I was thinking is it's so evident how meaningful their relationship was to both of them, but in this case for, for him and that he could just maybe spend the rest of his life, chasing that relationship, chasing a woman who will fall over him, the way that she did.2 (19m 14s):I mean, really what it seems like, what he needs is a person who kind of use it as their sole purpose in life to, to, to support his genius, which is why he probably makes a terrible partner, But that the, she gave him like this, like she was mainlining love to.4 (19m 35s):Yeah.2 (19m 37s):And you know, he's unlikely to find that any place else. Right,4 (19m 41s):Right.2 (19m 41s):But he's still looking, I think, Well,4 (19m 46s):And then it's really interesting. So like Cody gave up his whole life to, to follow him and it wasn't enough. Like it, it becomes not enough. And then when the person literally is removed by death, then what do you do is what we're seeing in the documentary. But like the it's, it's a it's, it's so fucked up because I, I feel like from watching from the outside, she must've felt like she was his only hope. Right. Which is which, okay. Which I'm sure is it's2 (20m 18s):Hard to me was her only hope.4 (20m 19s):No, she was, she's like, I'm my son's only advocate. Right? My old, his only hope for love and happiness comes from me ultimately. And whatever went down in his childhood, I have to make up for what other, all of them, with the other, all the mothers stuff happens. Right. I can imagine. And then it's like, yeah, it sets him up to be, like you said, chasing that the rest of his entire life. And she's not going to be around forever. And she did the best she could. And she did so much compared to what a lot of people do. And he's, it's just, it, you throw in mega stardom in there and it is a recipe for absolute meltdown.2 (21m 6s):It actually, it really relates to the thing we were talking about when we started talking today, which is about limits and limit setting. And I think I mentioned to you that I'm also reading this book about Sandy hook conspiracy and the straight line between Sandy hook conspiracy and the January 6th instruction. But in the part of the book where they're talking about Adam Lanza and his mother, I hadn't heard this before that, you know, he, he he'd been flagged in the psychiatric system, you know, going back since he was a young boy and I don't know why she opted out of treatment for him. But what I do know from this book is that what she strove to do was keep meeting his needs wherever they were.2 (21m 53s):But because he was so mentally ill, his needs were things like w w when he had his, the intake at Yale, the clinician noted that he said to his mother, you need to stand with no part of your body touching the wall and that she just did it. And that at home, it had gotten too, there were things he couldn't have cooking odors, curtains, door knobs.4 (22m 23s):Yeah.2 (22m 24s):And she just kept meeting the need. And this was something that I really relate to. Hopefully I have not going off the rails like that, but when your child is suffering and what they're telling you is I want this thing, the decision to say, I know better than you. You think you want this thing, but that is not the right thing for you and for that child to be screaming in your face or not. But, you know, with all of their energy, all of their conviction, they're coming to you saying no, this with my kids, it's the screens.2 (23m 4s):No, I need my screen time. And I'm going. Yeah. But you, you can't know what I know, which is that you, it's not good for you. It's simply not good. And it's just so hard to tolerate when your child is enraged or hurt by you4 (23m 22s):Suffering the suffering.2 (23m 24s):So nobody said any limits for Kanye, and he's now floating like a balloon in the ether, right?4 (23m 32s):Yeah. It's, it's really bad. He's now he's now has restraining orders. And now he's got the Grammy said he can't perform there. So now the limits are being imposed that are huge. And I don't know what's going to, and I also, from working in Hollywood, what I noticed was it is so easy when you have money and power yeah. To, to develop a team that will, will do what you're saying. That, that Adam Lanza's Mrs. Or miss Lanza did. It's so easy to have that bought and built in.2 (24m 15s):And I will tell you this, my, one of my very most successful treatments that I did when I was at private practice therapist is I treated somebody with very, very severe borderline personality disorder. And it was a kind of situation where the client would quit all of the time, you know, quit, quit therapy. And then, and then you would do this dance of like, they, you know, they don't really mean it. So you don't, you don't give up their appointment time because they're going to show up. Sometimes they're going to show up and act like nothing happened. Like they never said they were going to quit. So with this one person that I've been working with for a really long time, and we had a good relationship, which, which is to say yes, she was very, very sick.2 (25m 4s):And she was very, very difficult, but also she had so many great qualities that it kept me. Like, it kept me really invested in her, but the 50th time or whatever it was that she quit after I, she was also in this group that I was running and she like got violent Sharna in the group and left and whatever. Anyway, this time around, when she quit treatment, I said, okay, we're done now. And then she showed up for her next appointment. And I said, no, we're, we're done now. And that precipitated a year long hospitalization for her, but this person is now doing amazing, honestly.2 (25m 49s):And I knew in her family dynamic, her parents were afraid to set limits with that because she was a very, very strong personality, but it was only through the limit setting anything. It had to go all the way to the end, right. For her and, and to, to reject and decry and be victimized and blah, blah, blah, for then her to like follow her dream College. She, she, I can't say what it is obviously, but she has a job that was the job of her dreams and that she learned, she only discovered was the job of her dreams in treatment and that she could have only gotten to do after having really had to contend with actually living with the limit.0 (26m 42s):Well,3 (26m 55s):Today on the podcast, we are talking to Josh . Josh is graduating this year with his MFA in directing from Cal arts. And he formerly had a whole career in Chicago as artistic director of the Haven in Chicago. And he has a lot of interesting insights about his experience of being in school again, after having well launched into his career. So please enjoy our conversation with Josh Sobel.2 (27m 36s):So Josh was just explaining the Cal arts is, I was saying, is it a conservatory? And he was saying, it's an art school in the truest sense. So go ahead and repeat what you're saying.6 (27m 44s):Yeah. So like Travis, who's an alum of like Yale back from the Robert Brustein days of Yale. He he's like, look, Yale school of drama is always considered like, Ooh, Yale school of drama, but he's like, if you think about it within the larger Yale structure, you've also got like the business school and like, you've got the journal, you've got the medical school, you've got all these things. So like within the theater universe, it's huge, but within the structure of the university, it Yale, you know, and so the beauty of Cal arts in a way is that it exists outside of that larger sort of academic structure. It isn't part of a university. It is an art school with a theater department.6 (28m 27s):And there's something that, that is really freeing honestly about that. And the Cal arts in particular sort of leaned into in terms of its sort of generative and, and experimental sort of Ben it's, it's been an interesting experience. Yeah, please.2 (28m 45s):Gina Bridget went there. Yes. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. I think she's the another co Cal arts alum we have.6 (28m 51s):Well, and it's funny, cause you mentioned they were an acting alum and the acting program I have to say is in particular fascinating and unique. And I love it because unlike a lot of programs I've encountered and I've like taught in academia a little bit before I went in, before I started as a student in it, it's like very few programs encouraged teach and want their actors to be generative artists in their own. Right. And bring that to the table in the room. And honestly, as a director, I'm like, it's a gift. It is such a goddamn gift in terms of the collaborative process. Like I, I can sometimes when I'm hitting my own moment, like really feel comfortable being like, I need like a physical gesture representing a panic attack in slow motion that moves across the stage this way, take third, take 30 minutes.6 (29m 44s):Here's some music and an object.4 (29m 46s):Oh God, that sounds like the greatest thing I've ever heard.6 (29m 51s):I did something similar with a particular actor in my thesis show thesis show, quote unquote. And like she killed it. Oh my God. Avalon Greenberg call. She's about to graduate from the BFA program and she's, or a couple of years. And she's incredible. But like she ran with it and these actors are sort of prepared to take that and like, just make shit and be like, is this what it is? What does it need? And then I can sit there and like sculpt, we can then like work together to be like, Ooh, let's expand that moment out. Let's tighten that bit. And we're then working collaboratively on this other thing.4 (30m 25s):So amazing Josh, like, like I, I, I do this every time we talked to someone that I really like, and I like their vibe and I like how they're talking about their education. I'm like, oh, I'm going to apply there. And then I remember that I did apply to Cal arts for undergrad and I got a call back, which was like the greatest thing, because I was a terrible actor. And I like in the truest sense, like what you're talking about, I would have been like, so, so I am, so I am so glad to talk to you because I, when you say things like that, about how you direct as well, and I'm not a director, Gina directs, I don't direct, but like I want to work with someone who says shit like that.6 (31m 7s):Well, I, I really, I don't know. It's funny. I, you know, outside of like grad school, when I was in undergrad, I went to undergrad at Oberlin college, which is really sort of a diamond in the rough school for theater. It's like, and it's a lot of OBS do well out there. And it's weird because it's like, it's not known, but it's really good. But while I was there, I also did a semester at the O'Neill and I don't know if you're familiar, the national theater Institute. Yeah. So I, I did fall 2007 and like, I really lucked out my partner and I were a year apart actually, before we ever met weird small world, but we both walked out because we've got there right at the time as this particular artistic director was there, Michael Cadman, who was a, an alum himself of the Royal Shakespeare company.6 (31m 52s):And like he understood ensemble. It's funny. Cause I always like, what am I, I love Chicago and I miss Chicago so much, but one of my like little gripes with Chicago is that the word ensemble gets thrown out a4 (32m 6s):Lot.6 (32m 7s):And I, I have a very particular opinion about that because it's like, I think ensemble sometimes it's just meant to mean or thought to mean like a collection of actors, you know, or the company members, you know, the, the Steppenwolf ensemble or the straw dog or whatever. And I'm like ensemble is a value. I think ensemble is, is some it's about how one sits in the middle of a collaborative process. It's about how the threads are drawn. Not even just in the actors, it's about the threads are drawn outside to stage management, to producing, to designers, to everything. Like, and we're all coming together to sort of generate something together, right?6 (32m 49s):Like that's ensemble and Michael understood more than anyone I've ever met in my life. Like how to nurture, how to build, how to find the ensemble impulse in people. And he would just build semesters of the young students and sort of demonstrate that for for four months. And yeah, that's sort of been a foundational thing from that point forward. So I'm, I'm always ready to like chill for the O'Neil. Like, I love the, I love being,2 (33m 16s):Yeah. I actually live kind of near there. I live in Connecticut. Yeah. Oh, that's6 (33m 21s):Brilliant.2 (33m 21s):So you just made me think about something. Has any group of theater artists ever called the ensemble? Also the, the whole entire staff, like everybody on crew, because it is such a group effort. And we as act, this is one of the big things about, you know, going through an acting program, you just, and maybe it was just me, but you just think like, it's all about this. It's all about the actors and you just think everybody else is there supporting what you're doing.4 (33m 55s):Well,6 (33m 56s):It treats it like a technical term, right? It's like, it's a category. And rather than like, no, it's actually about an energy. It's about a trust. It's about something else. And I will say to answer your question like that w when I was a strong dog ensemble member, that that was one of the things I loved most about being on the straw dog ensemble was you had designers, you had managers, you had people like from every aspect of the creative process, sort of understood as part of the ensemble. It was all framed that way.4 (34m 24s):It's interesting. Like, I feel like what happens maybe is like, so take Steppenwolf because everyone talks about Steppenwolf as the original ensemble, which really you're right. A side note tends to mean in Chicago. And I can say this because I'm from there means that nobody is prettier or more famous than, than other actors. Like, that's what they mean by ensemble. Like that's how people talk about that. They're like, no, this is an ensemble piece. Meaning that even though you're really pretty, you're not going to be the star, like to someone, they never say that to me. You know what I mean? Okay. But anyway, side note, but ensembles. So when it's interesting, because it's like when a theater gets bigger, meaning a broader audience, more money, I feel like there becomes a really strong, clear delineation between technical staff and the actors.4 (35m 15s):And it comes, becomes compartmentalized probably because they have to run a freaking business with a multimillion dollar budget as we're like straw, dog. Like you can kind of stay it's like that storefront. It kind of, you can really get in there, which is how stepping will start it. So I think what we're talking about is the capitalization of the,6 (35m 33s):Oh, always, I mean, honestly, always all the time,4 (35m 37s):But yeah, but I'm, I'm curious about she and Gina, did you say2 (35m 42s):I did and I'm so sorry. I forgot to say Josh Sobell congratulations. Your surviving theater school. You're almost done4 (35m 49s):Art school theater school, you know, it's all the thing, but yeah. So I wanted to ask, I guess, take it back before I get on the runaway train of like, did you start out as a direct, like where you would act what's what was your path to the school of Cal arts? I guess6 (36m 7s):I've, I've been a director most of the time. I of course did a little bit of actually got rather late. Like I'm not one of those people who was like really involved in a lot of things when I was really, really little, but I had sort of a formative experience in high school as an audience member. My school was really remarkable. I, I unfortunately should catch up with them and see what they're doing in their theater department. But at the time, like we were a high school that was doing like Ian ESCO and Tom Stoppard and shit. Like, it was pretty cool. I assistant directed rhinoceros my senior year of high school, like Steve Rochester, New York, right in high school, shout out to Steve angle, Mr. Angle.6 (36m 47s):He was incredible. He also was the AP lit teacher and ran an incredible AP lit class. Like, oh my God, we, we read and watched just incredible stuff. And so actually his show, but he was one of the other directors there did chorus line and they did like an unedited chorus line in high school, which I also very much admired. And Paul's monologue hit me like eight when I don't know how familiar you are with, with the show. But like, you know, it's a classic Broadway, 1970s. It was sort of groundbreaking at the time because it was all real interviews of people who were all fighting chorus.6 (37m 27s):Of course, Paul Paul's monologue when he sort of finally breaks down and tells the story about his, his parents meeting him at the drag show in the back of, I lost it. Like I was a weeping mess. I don't know. And I had not had that particular experience before. And I walked out, I remember going home nerdy, like misfit fucking high school student hadn't found themselves yet and was like, I feel different. I don't know how I don't, I can't quantify it, but I feel like I am moving through the world differently than I was before I had that experience.6 (38m 8s):Wow. I want to do that. And that was, that was the moment. And so I started auditioning a little bit, but I always got interested in directing because I, it was the idea of like creating that holistic experience for an audience member, the way it was created for me. And so we also had, I think it was like an official partnership, like you could license with the 24 hour plays in New York. So my high did the 24 hour plays every year. And so I would stay overnight at the fucking school and, and do and direct. And that was sort of my first directing configuration. I was terrible. God. And my first few shows like first few shows at Oberlin were terrible.6 (38m 55s):Why, why? Oh my God, too, in my own head, I'm still too in my own head. It's the main thing I'm working on. I'm a very cerebral artist and that's not necessarily a bad thing. I just am seeking balance. That's part of the reason I went to Cal arts and Kellogg's was actually really the right choice for that in a lot of reasons to sort of break down some of my more cerebral and rigid habits. But I just didn't like, I, I was in my own way. It was that classic. Like it, my insecurity, I was second guessing. I was, it was actually Michael Cadman. It was the O'Neil. That was the turning point of that as well. So like I, anyways, I went through high school, got into it, went to Oberlin, was sort of jumping between theater and film got focused in theater because I liked the linearity of the process.6 (39m 40s):It just fit my brain better. You can really build the Dominos in order and watch them fall. And I love that from a process standpoint, joy. And so I went to the O'Neill and I was still like, I was overthinking and I was over like complicating and convoluting and Michael Cadman who I'm the final day of the program. I was like, you asshole, you couldn't have said this to me like weeks ago. I'm the final day of the program was like, you're very, very smart stop trying so hard to prove it.7 (40m 19s):Ah,6 (40m 20s):And that was, that was another game changing moment for me. And I, I started sort of stepping back and letting myself have more fun with it and just found myself sort of like what were my passion projects? What were the things that made me feel the way I did it, chorus line in a way. And my first show back in undergrad was a cabaret. And that was, that was a really huge, huge show for me. And I was very proud of that show and still have, like, I watched the video sometimes I was like, oh God, those transitions fucking suck. But, but yeah, directing, directing has always been sort of my thing because of that idea of like, I get to sort of, I don't know.6 (41m 4s):I, I, it's funny because so many people think about directing in this very hierarchical standpoint, right? Like they like the sort of like top-down, they get to sit at the head of the thing and create their vision. I challenged that constantly. And it's funny because people think by challenging that you give up the sort of directorial authority I call bullshit. I I'm interested in what I like to refer to as horizontal hierarchy. I say, I refer to it. I didn't invent the phrase, but like I've sort of taken it and I really love applying it to collaboration. I like the idea that as the director, I'm sort of sitting in the middle, I'm the same plane as everyone else surrounded by all of these brilliant fucking artists.6 (41m 48s):And I get to be like, Ooh, yes, it's a bit of that. It's not quite that. Can we bring it over there? I, yes, let's bring that in and pulling all of it towards the middle. And I still get to, by virtue of being in the center of a doll, just make decisions I get to make, be the arbiter of the quote, unquote vision or whatever you want to call it. But it's not that it breaks down the hierarchy in a way I'm not above anyone else that doesn't have to be my idea. It has to be the coolest idea. And so by sitting in the middle of it, I just get to sort of help tie the threads together in a way that feels like the audience experience we're going for. Like, that's my job to God.4 (42m 30s):Interesting. So it's so, oh yes. And I'm so curious as to why more directors don't do a horror. Is that, is it just an ego thing? A horizontal.6 (42m 47s):Yeah. Yeah. I think there's a lot of fear. There's a lot of like, I'm not even going to call it insecurity. Cause I actually think that doesn't do it justice and I think it's too easily dismissible. I think it's fear. I think there's a lot of fear. I mean, if I'm really Frank, I'm confronting it in certain areas of my program right now.4 (43m 25s):Okay. Wait, so you're saying that I just want to reiterate for my own brain because this happens all the time in all organizations across the board. So I'm really, and we're like, we were talking about it yesterday sort of. So, so you, you, you, there is an atmosphere of like, we want to make change, right.6 (43m 43s):Faded a stated goal,4 (43m 46s):Right? Not an atmosphere. Okay. So a stated goal, which a lot of theaters that I am familiar with and institutions are making these statements right now that the statement on paper or on the web or wherever it is saying, we want to take your feedback and make change. And it usually revolves around the word change. Like we're open to change. And if we're always, if we're honest, nobody's fucking open to change. We fucking,6 (44m 14s):And that's what we're talking about. It's the same fear to me. It's the same fear that you find in directing. It's a fear of some, some kind of loss of authority. It's a fear of some kind of loss of control. It's the fear of, I don't know. And it's so funny, like all of the ways you encounter it, because then yeah, you go and you actually say, here's the thing. And like I did this recently and I got yelled at, I got, and again, I've been, I've been working in Chicago theater for a decade before this. I don't give a shit. I was an artistic director, right. Like I was artistic director of Haven, Chicago. I don't like, this is, I don't need your ego. So I think it was actually kind of fun.6 (44m 56s):I think whether it's directing, whether it's artistic directors and institutional leadership, whether it's corporate leadership, whether it's, it's all of this, it's, it's, it's a full each year that, that somehow you're going to lose your Control.4 (45m 10s):This is so classic in, in terms of, so Gina and I were both therapists for years and look, and obviously we were children of parents. So I would go to my mom and say, this is the exact same thing. I would go to her and say, Hey mom, you're pretty abusive verbally. And she would say, but I'm the best mom. I know how to be. And at least you're not being beaten. Like I was beaten. And I'm like, okay. Yes, true. That all that is true. I, and you're still abusive to me. You're hurting me and sh and whether or not you want to make changes. That's the thing.4 (45m 50s):So we, we are literally reenacting parent child relationships in every walk of life. Like this sounds like a conversation a kid might have with their father where the father is like, well, I provide, we we're great.6 (46m 8s):And it's not about perfection. Like, it's not about like everyone and just like, we're all human beings. Right? Like I, I never wanted to feel like, and that's sometimes my problem with like, like I'm, I'm as left to center as you can get in a lot of ways, but it's like my one problem with sometimes a lot of left wing stuff is w where it's like, I think there is a purism that sometimes get, gets into it. And it's like, no, like we're all fucking human beings, right? If we believe in the ability to change and restorative justice and all of these things, then we have to actually believe that people can improve and get better. But it's like, there needs to be that honest interest in improving and getting better. There needs to be that genuine interest in it. And it's like, it's one of the things I was really proud of that we built it at Haven in Chicago with4 (46m 47s):Such a great theater. Gina Pavan is amazing. We're going to be there in the summer. So maybe we'll check it.6 (46m 53s):Ian Martin, like it's so funny. Cause it was such a, it was also a gift to really be able to do a transition process with Ian, you know, cause we really tried to be in, I've been part of some really unintentional transition processes. So like there were a lot of reasons where I really felt like Ian was exactly like, not, it wasn't even about sustaining what Haven had been doing. It was about how do we build and evolve on what Haven had been doing. And so Ian was sort of perfect. And we built the structure that you don't see very often where I, he was, yeah, he was my art, my associate artistic director for half the final season. And then we switched and he became artistic director and I was his associate artistic director for the other half of the season.6 (47m 36s):So he could have the responsibility and be in the decision-making position, but have the institutional memory sort of right at hand. And then it's like, and then I step away. So like I bring that up because there was an intentionality that we tried to bring to, like, we're going to be a theater company, let's be a theater company. Like you mentioned the business. Like let's, let's try to be a business, but let's try to be a next generation business.2 (48m 2s):And by the way, statements statements are to change as you know, sex is to relationships. Like it's a good start, but like you have to do more6 (48m 12s):Exact than just exactly.4 (48m 13s):So I guess the question is, what is it for me for me anyway? What is it in you, Josh? That is the kind of person because what is it? And there's a reckoning, obviously that I talk about a lot in, in terms of American theater and theater in general and the movie industry, the reckoning that's coming or in is, is that part of your drive right now to do this? Or it sounds like you've always been this sort of way, but why the fight? What, what, what about the fight?6 (48m 43s):Yeah, I think, I think, I think it's got it. That's such an interesting question because it's making me think in a chicken egg way, like is my ethics and my politics, like in here, like I don't know, the weirdest thing just came to mind and I'm going to follow that impulse.4 (48m 58s):Great.6 (48m 59s):Do it. And forgive me if I get a little bit emotional right now, it's it's my dad. If I'm really being honest, my dad is actually, he's not in the arts, but he's very artistic. He's a cellist. He's a musician. His odd actually, if you go to the Dem theater in Chicago, where Haven is the space that Haven exists in is the Bookspan theater specifically, the Janet Bookspan theater. Janet Bookspan is my aunt, his sister who was a major opera director, vocal coach, teacher, performer, actor assisted how prince back in the day, like holy4 (49m 40s):Shit.6 (49m 41s):Yeah. So like, and I have it on my mom's side as well, but my mom actually is an artist. She's a painter, but my dad, my dad is a radiation oncologist. He's a cancer physician, but music and art has always been a very big part of his life. His family, my life, he actually sidebar. Cause this is just a fun thing. And I hope this gets included. Cause I love bragging about this. My dad talk about politics and, and art colliding and art ed creative ethics. My dad has always been a big fan of Dr. Seuss's the snitches, this exists. You can go online. It's amazing. I'm so inspired by this. He was part of the Rochester academy of medicine and they have this amazing old building that has a roof.6 (50m 23s):That was basically, it's like a mansion that was donated and it's got this that was built for chamber music. And he developed relationships with the Rochester Philharmonic re developed friendships with musicians and created basically a chamber trio to play at the Rochester academy of medicine. And through this met a composer as Spanish composer, living in Berlin, named the Lorenzo. Palomo, who's pretty bright. His music is pretty outstanding and ended up commissioning a piece of music for this trio. And one thing led to another. And we found out that since my dad was young, he had believed that Dr.6 (51m 6s):Seuss is the snitches one. It was one of the most impactful, universal and effective lessons about acceptance and like anti-racism that you could find. And it was always his dream to have a piece of music, Allah, Peter, and the Wolf that was composed to be performed in tandem with a narration of Dr. Seuss's the snitches. So you can license this now on music theater international, because he did it. He commissioned Lorenzo to compose a piece of music for Dr. Seuss's the snitches. And we also by hooker by crooked premiered at my Alma mater at Oberlin and has since played around the country actually.6 (51m 52s):And I believe internationally. And, and it was all because he wanted to spread the message. It was because he wanted to use art to create an anti-racist piece of art. And the other cool thing is through a connection with his niece who ran the department of cultural affairs in Miami Dade county. She had a connection to John Delancey, who you might know as Q from star Trek, the next generation who did the original narration, the premiere. And so actually it's all on YouTube. You can hear John Delancey doing the speeches. And so like that's an aspect of my dad right there.6 (52m 33s):Another aspect was that I'll never forget this story. He actually built, he in Clifton Springs, New York built the cancer center, finger lakes, radiation oncology, because there, you know, there was a large elderly in particular community out there if I recall. And so, you know, as people are getting later in life, you know, biology happens and access to cancer treatment was non-existent except like 45 minutes or more at least minimum drive out of the way, if not hours out of the way. And especially as you're getting older, that becomes less and less sustainable for radiation treatments, for chemo treatments for all of these things.6 (53m 15s):So he found funding and worked his ass off as I, in some of my youngest days and built this cancer center from the ground up. And there was a day that I remember very distinctly hearing this story where as we've all been in any doctor's office, they were just running like, you know, three, four hours behind and sorry, I get emotional tug this story. It's so funny because it's like, that's, that's my true north in a way. You know, he, he sent his technicians out. This was back in the day when like Rent-A-Center was still a thing and blockbuster and shit, and like went out to get like sent them out to get like a television, sent them out to get a bunch of movies, sent them out to get like a sandwich platter and just showed up and basically were like, Hey, we're sorry.6 (54m 11s):We're we know we're running behind. We just want you to know, we haven't forgotten that you're here. You know? And like when does that happen at a doctor's office? Like when has that ever actually happened? Right. That's my,2 (54m 27s):Not for nothing, but my dad sold x-ray equipment. I've met a lot of radiation oncologists, and it's very unusual. Like there tends to be kind of a personality type with people who go into radar and it, it's not that what you're describing. So your dad must be a really remarkable person,6 (54m 45s):But yeah, no. And so I think it was a values thing. If we really want to talk about it, it's a values thing. It's, it's, it's a sense of how can we make this better? Like how can we be people first? How can we like again, we talk about Haven, right? One of the things I used to say, and I, and I would try, I tried to work hard to embody was like, oh, sorry, this does plug into our original conversations to bring it back perfectly on topic. One of my first shows I did in Chicago, I did a production of a play called xylophone west by Alex who's becoming a leg. Yeah. Alex is great. He's he's rising really well.6 (55m 26s):And like, we, he was actually, when I was the associate director of the summer Oneal program, he was a playwriting student when I was associate director. And that was our first. So it's cool. Just like, as we've sort of grown together, it's been amazing. And we did a reading of it and I, we have very strong opinions, especially because of the O'Neil being sort of a hub of new play development about what new play development is. There's a lot of bad, new play development. There's a lot of bad talk-backs, there's, there's a lot. And really it comes down to the difference between responsive feedback versus prescriptive feedback and how to cultivate that and understanding the difference.6 (56m 6s):And these, this artistic director did not understand this. And well, similar to what we're talking about, we were like, Hey, can we structure the talk back this way? Can we, this would really help Alex, Alex would say, this would really help me, like understand my play better. And artistic director's response was, I'll never forget this. Just remember who's the employer and who's the employee.4 (56m 34s):Right, right,6 (56m 35s):Right,4 (56m 35s):Right.6 (56m 36s):Case in point to everything we're talking about. And so like, I, it's sort of, when I think about like the sort of challenge to, sorry, I completely lost my train of thought.4 (56m 49s):No, no. What we're talking about is no, no, it's fine. It's when we're talking about a lot of things.6 (56m 53s):So4 (56m 54s):That's okay. What we're talking about is like this whole idea of like that your mentor wasn't your mentor anymore and why people don't want to change and the message versus what is actually happening in.6 (57m 6s):Yeah. Yeah. I'm trying to remember why I specifically brought up xylophone west, but it was like this idea of, I don't know. I think about this, this, I owe my, my dad my values. Yeah. Value system. That's right. Thank you. I just needed to hear about, yeah. Yeah. It's a value system thing. It's like, that tells me what that person's value system is. Right. That tells me sort of the culture that they built. And for me as at Haven, sort of taking a note from my dad, right? Hey guys, that you're here. We see that you're here. The way I would phrase that as an artistic director was like, yes, you are our employees. Let's be like, it's not that, that isn't real. Like we are, you were signing a contract to work for us.6 (57m 49s):We have expectations based on their contract. You are also a guest in our home. And that is our responsibility. Like as leadership as a company, as an institution, as a director, like you are, you are a guest in our home. This is our home. We are responsible. Especially if we want to talk about mentorship in academia, some of us are paying $50,000 a year,4 (58m 14s):Right.6 (58m 15s):Be in your home. Like you have all of the control of this space. You can, you can make this, whatever you want it to be, and we're paying you to exist inside of it. And, and it becomes a question for me of how do you take that responsibility? Like what if, whether it's an academic responsibility of like, we are literally paying for the privilege of this, or in a professional standpoint where it's like, it's, it's a little bit in the reverse either way. It's like you are in the position of power. You are in the position where you can like build culture that I use, that I find that word comes up a lot. When I rant about this, which I rant about4 (58m 53s):Culture, building culture,6 (58m 54s):Building culture, whether it's academic, whether it's professional, like that's the responsibility. And if you don't take that as the responsibility it's so,4 (59m 3s):Okay. The, the, the other thing that I was going to say is you had a moment where, so I have these moments where I say to myself, usually not out loud, but you kind of almost said it out loud, but you didn't either. Which is I say, my mama did not come to this country as an and work her ass off for this shit. And your moment was, my dad did not build a fucking radiology oncology center and then get Rent-A-Center furniture and sandwiches for me to be doing this shit like that is that moment. Well, I think, well, that's what I heard there. Everyone has a line and a true north of like, wait, wait, my legacy is not going to be, this is not going to be not saying anything to you.6 (59m 47s):And legacy is, is something I think about sometimes, but it's like, it's not even about that per se. It's like, I see what it means to people. Right? And like, if, if we believe in our own bullshit, like, especially as artists, you know, because artists are, are at the forefront of talking a lot of shit about like empathy, right. About community, about humanity, about seeing each other about uplifting each other about making the world a better place. And it's like, well, that's all well and good. But like, are you like how? And it's not even just like, again, like there's so many ways to do it, but I think sometimes we take for granted the small ways of doing it.6 (1h 0m 29s):I think sometimes we take for granted the like, what if we just buy everyone dinner? What if we like make a concerted effort to pay people a little bit better? Like, what if we, what if we show our work in that? Like, what if we actually believe in the transparency that we add? Like so much, like we talk about transparency so much in our industry, like, or rather not in our industry, I should say like artists talk about transparency in the world, right? Like we want corporate transparency. We want more governmental transparency. What are some of the least transparent motherfuckers?2 (1h 1m 4s):Yeah. I feel like I know why that happens in theater too. It's because there's no money. So everybody goes into it with all of their, like very theoretical and ideological approaches. And when you get very cerebral, very theoretical, you forget about things like, oh yeah, people don't want to do 10 out of twelves anymore because it's, it's, it's too fatiguing. And it actually works against the thing that they're there to do, which is create a new each performance, like being able to offer something fresh each time. So it, it, that is actually an area in which it's helpful to think about theater as a business.2 (1h 1m 47s):Because if this, if you were running a seven 11 and you had an employee, you'd have to have a bathroom, like it's, you know, you just think about the pragmatic things more when you're thinking about it as a business.6 (1h 1m 57s):Right. And, and it's like, I, and for me, it's like a lot of these things are considered mutually exclusive for some, or they're treated as mutually exclusive, but like, you have to, it's like the business and the sort of like cultural, ethical side, somehow don't mix. And I just don't agree. I don't agree for a lot of reasons. I don't agree in part through the Haven experiment. You know, I it's like, look, we, we're still not making money. And we, we, I want to say we were very privileged to have particular financial support. I don't want to take that for granted that we were not starting in the same place as a lot of other people. And I, and I don't take that for granted. It's not a brag. It's like a, like the bootstrap Smith. Like I want to make sure that it's not like, you know, taken for granted, but it's also like, there's still this idea that people won't show up sometimes like that, like literally I've had other artistic directors talk to me about Haven work in Chicago being like, what are you sure there's an audience here.6 (1h 2m 53s):I'm like motherfuckers. We just sent like 15 people away at the door for Isaac Gomez, horror play. But no one else would produce like, like why, what are we it, and those decisions are made because of business, right? Because, because how are we going to sell it to Chris Jones? Because like, how are we going to, and I, I, we found time and time again, that there is an audience for this work that we were able to at times even make money on, like compared to what we, what our show to show budget work. We were able to make money back, like, and we were paying people, you know, it still stipends, you know, not what they're worth. I don't want to pretend we were ever able to pay people what they worth.6 (1h 3m 35s):But we were able to pay people, usually double the typical storefront stipend it's like, and, and still keep ourselves on a typical like budget that I was used to for other storefronts. So it's like, it's this question of like, why are these things treated as mutually exclusive on a bigger scale? Look at center theater group right now, an article just got written. I got to see slave play out here, which amazing production also Chicago, shout out. I got to see cause he's under studying. And I got to see him perform that night. Rashad hall. Brilliant, brilliant. And his2 (1h 4m 11s):Shot6 (1h 4m 11s):Is brilliant. Oh my God, his Phillip just broke my goddamn heart. Oh my God. He was so good. That's a show that is deeply controversial, deeply challenging queer by PAC sexual BDSM oriented, racist, racist, racist, or in terms of its its topic matter like racism in the United States. And historically, and today it's it's and they gave away like 5,000 or more like free and discounted tickets. And they still made money.2 (1h 4m 48s):Jeremy DOE he recently just put something up on social about this that he made. He made accessibility like the most important feature of his, you know, this play being produced and it worked and it worked better still made money on this scarcity model, which is, I mean, that's a lot of this just comes from the scarcity model, influencing how everybody feels. So constantly afraid of losing the one little sliver of the pie that they have that, you know, all they can think about is how to make that tiny little sliver. How to divvy it up instead of saying no, how can we get more pie people? We want more pie. We want to just keep getting our tiny little slivers we want, we, we want to add.2 (1h 5m 28s):So I'm mindful of the time because I know we're about 50 and we're going to be having to wrap up and I want to hear about it's your last semester and you're working on a project and you're going to have spring break next week. What is your, is it a thesis? Is that, is that,6 (1h 5m 43s):That, that was actually last semester. That last semester. Yeah. That's so that's done. I've I've kept myself a little bit busy. I don't know. I, I found myself strangely in spite of the pandemic lab, maybe because of the pandemic last year and now being back in in person and, and all of that. I just, and also I think because of like big was amazing and like my designers were incredible. The students here are unbelievable, but it was also because of some of the things I shared, like an exhausting process, excuse me. And so I sort of took a break and then got into the semester and for some reason just was like, I want to make shit. I want to be involved in making shit.6 (1h 6m 24s):I want to, I want to be involved in my own shit. I want to get involved in other people's shit. I just want to make shit. And so I'm like, I just finished up working on a collaboration with a doctoral student in the music school where we created a, I worked with a lighting designer and we worked collaboratively to create a light based sort of design journey, like a sort of light experience in conversation with the music called busking style in real time, as part of his doctoral thesis.2 (1h 6m 60s):Wait, you're saying it was busking like that the project was6 (1h 7m 4s):The, the style of, of calling the lighting. Was it wasn't like, it was sort of like, Yeah, it was a, yeah. So it was board op up in the booth watching and listening for particular moments. And the music was also highly improv. The reason is because the composition had moments of high improvisation. So there were moments where it was literally like just listening for certain things to shift the lighting responsibly to the music as it was happening. And it was just something I had never done before. So I'm like, let's try this out. And then I'm, I'm drama turking and assistant directing a play that an acting MFA student who's a dear, dear friend has written in his performing it.6 (1h 7m 48s):So I can be sort of the outside eye while she's on the inside of it. And then I might have another project cooking for right before graduation. I'm I'm figuring that out right now. And then I've also got things outside. I'm thrilled to say my partner is actually going to be going to USC for film school next year. So she and I are actually working collaboratively on a couple of things with another acting alum from, from Cal arts, actually a which I'll be able to share a little bit more, actually there's some stuff online with little like BTS stuff it's called goon and I'm actually really pumped about it. Yeah. I'm really, it's, it's, it's super fun, super quirky.6 (1h 8m 30s):We found a great cinematographer. Right. We shed who's just has an inspired eye. And so, yeah, just, I don't know, just finding myself in that moment of like, I think also out of frustration, maybe with Cal arts at times, like I just want to get with the students here and make some shifts. Let's just make some,2 (1h 8m 47s):I think your thing is you want to helm your own ship, always. You want to kind of be in charge of your own destiny and which is a very good, I mean, I see you're making a face about it, but I just, from my prime saying that's a very good quality to have. And it actually leads me to another question I was going to ask you, which is, are you, age-wise about there with your peers in this MFA6 (1h 9m 9s):And that's been interesting. Yeah. Older, older. Yeah. I'm in my mid thirties. And that has been a, an interesting difference of experience at times. Yeah.2 (1h 9m 19s):Yeah. Well, we've talked to a lot of MFA's who, because they were in their thirties, we're able to see the whole thing about school in a m

The Weekend Podcast - Over Served Weekend Podcast: the new year, resolutions, nearly drowning, over served, paradise isn't what it seems, 2021 was bad but not as bad as I first thought, why 2022 will be better, crypto shoe shine theory, sector diversification & conspiracy. Stocks mentioned: #BIOM #GFIN #GTC #POLX #TRU #SO4 #XPF 

Intro: Amtrak, you can't afford to live anywhere, where am I trying to go?, being of service, Legacy, Fresh and FancyLet Me Run This By You: We get feedback from Dave, talk about Jeff Garlin, NO ONE IS HIDING ANYTHINGCOMPLETE TRANSCRIPT (unedited):1 (10s):And I'm Gina Pulice. We went to theater school2 (12s):Together. We survived it.1 (14s):You didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all2 (21s):Survived theater school. And you will too. Are we famous yet?1 (31s):Hello survivors. It is Gina. Just wanted to let you know that today, boss and I are guest lists. We are without a guest and we instead had a conversation, just the two of us, chickens about a ton of things, including the fact that nothing is a secret. Even the things that we think are and talking about legacy. This is a topic that boss has been really interested in recently. And I guess I'm starting to get interested in it too. At some point in one's life, one starts to think, Hmm, did it matter that I was here? What did I do? What, what proof or evidence of is there? What I did, or maybe you don't think that way, maybe your legacy is just that you lived a contented and happy life and, and it doesn't matter if it is written in the stars in any way, either way.1 (1m 22s):It's fine with me. Just interesting to learn about what people's philosophies or the thoughts are about legacy. And as we come to this end of the year and we're reflecting on, wow, we're reflecting on, I guess these last two crazy years, hopefully everybody is entering this time of reflection with a lot more clarity. Maybe I think the pandemic has been clarifying among many other things. And so hopefully you're feeling, I don't know, clear, and hopefully you are enjoying this podcast.1 (2m 4s):And if you are enjoying it, you are hopefully subscribed. And if you're subscribed, hopefully you have left us a review. Honestly, I don't even care what the review says. I think just having reviews is the thing that helps us with the king algorithm. And that's important only because we want to be able to keep doing this podcast. We enjoy doing it. We, we get a lot out of it. And we've heard from people that people are getting a lot out of it in return. So it's a mutually great thing that we'll be able to continue. If you are able to put your love for our podcast, not just in your heart, but in the world, tell the public, shout it from the rooftops.1 (2m 47s):I'm not going to stop you from shouting it from the rooftops. I'll tell you that much right now. Anyway, that's all for that. Please enjoy.3 (3m 10s):I'm going to take it to all those places. Cause those are like some of my favorite places in Southern California. And I didn't know that. So I'm learning a lot. And so I took it to San Francisco to Oakland and my cousin picked me up. But what is fantastic and sad about Amtrak for people that don't know? Like nobody knows shit about Amtrak, but Amtrak is a government funded. So rail is government funded. It was supposed to be like the thing of the future. It was supposed to be just rail. We weren't like flying and, and, and, and train travel was supposed to be comparable like it was going to be, but it just like, it has a lot to do. Someone was telling me like w who I met on the Amtrak.3 (3m 51s):Cause you eat in community eating. So these two amazing women that I met told me that like something with world war two and trains, the trains all had to be used for, for like ammunition, like the war Fs. And so then it became less of a, a passenger situation. And then when flying really anyway. So, but it's gorgeous. So w and what you can do is, so I bought a coach ticket, which is literally like, you know, I don't know, 50 bucks, a hundred bucks round trip from, but then you can bid to upgrade your seat because Amtrak has no money.3 (4m 32s):So what you can do is say, okay, well, like I'm willing to pay. They give you a range I'm willing to pay. And I did the lowest $20 more to go to business class, which is like super much nicer. Right. So I bid, and then they said, of course they accepted my bid because it's not a full train. Nobody trained travels by train. And so business classes dope. And it is like, you get two seats. It, they reclined almost all the way. There's, it's just, it's quiet. Like coaches, coaches, loud as hell, where people are eating, like, you know, Funyuns and like Takis chips the whole time. And like, you know, a lot of people like down on their luck and stuff like that.3 (5m 15s):Okay. So, you know, I did business class on the way there and lovely. I mean, there's wifi. I mean, it's like dope. And the bathrooms were relative are clean. I don't in business class anyway. All right. So it literally goes up the coast. And so you, you, you're on the ocean. It's the weirdest thing you're like, this is I'm, I'm traveling right next to the ocean. It's a long time. The whole time. Almost long as hell though. Okay. So like, you know, the flight is 45 minutes from Burbank to, to, to San Francisco. And the train ride is 10 hours. Like, that's just how it is. Like, that's, if you are in a hurry, you do not take the Amtrak.3 (5m 57s):You know what I mean? So there is like, I do have some shame, like, people think I'm ridiculous a little bit. They're like, I'm like, where am I going? I, it's not like I have pressing meetings. I am not. Yeah.1 (6m 9s):And for, for the life, so many of us are living right now, which is working from home or working remotely or making your own schedule. Why shouldn't you it's much better for the environment to take the train. Yeah.3 (6m 23s):It is it, you take the airplane. Yes. So, so it was amazing. And then I had a wonderful, wonderful time in San Francisco. Like I never really liked San Francisco. I don't know what my problem was. Like, I never really got into San Francisco even though like people cause1 (6m 41s):Your mom left you a spree for, oh3 (6m 43s):My God. Yeah. If you listen to this podcast, you know that like, you know, my mom was having an affair and, and, and we went to San Francisco and she literally left my sister and I at the esprit outlet, which thank God, had a restaurant in the outlet for like what felt like forever. But it, it was a work day. It was a full work day at a spree. It was like eight hours. So I just really, in the last couple years have really grown to love the shit out of the bay area. Like I know the tech bros have taken over. I know that you can't afford to live there. Okay. All those things are true. I still, because maybe I'm not from there.3 (7m 23s):I know I'm not so butt hurt about that. Like I, you know, and my aunt and uncle this beautiful, beautiful condo in north beach and my cousin lives in the inner inner Richmond, I don't know. Anyway. So she's on Clement street and it's gorgeous. And I walked everywhere and we went hiking in Moran and we drove to Marin. So I would live there. I would live. I mean, I, you know, who can afford to live there, but here's the thing that I think a lot of us too are, are, are really looking at. Most of us in my circle are like, we, we really literally can't afford to live anywhere. Like the, the world is becoming unaffordable on a, so many ways. And so many levels that the thing of like, oh, it's so expensive in blank.3 (8m 6s):City becomes less sort of exciting or like less sensational because it's like, look around what, what are you talking about? You can't live anywhere. It's all, it's all terrible. So, so all this to say, like, it was, it was a great trip. And then on the way back, I got smart and I was like, okay, well, let me see if I can upgrade to a room. You can bid on rooms on the train, right. Cause it's 10 hours or whatever. And I was like, okay, let me, and they took my bid of, you know, $40 or something to upgrade to a room. And that has all the amazing meals included. So two meals, which lunches, if you just paid for it is 25.3 (8m 49s):Dinner is 45. So I got lunch and dinner free. And I just tipped to the, and it was delicious salmon. I mean like this, and I got my own room and I wrote, and I, I like lived, lived my best life on the train1 (9m 5s):Girl. I need to do this, but I don't live in California. I mean, maybe I'll just pick a, maybe I'll pick it east coast version of that.3 (9m 16s):It doesn't matter. Like you could, you can also take it like they have specials. Like there's apparently a really beautiful ride between DC and New York. So1 (9m 29s):Yeah, no. So I also love or have loved the idea of train travel. And I always really wanted to take, there's a, there's a train that goes somehow through the Rockies. That's the one I really want to go on. But the first time I treated myself to a train trip. Oh, that's right. The worst possible3 (9m 53s):You were pregnant. Right.1 (9m 55s):I was the worst possible route to, we went from Chicago to Texas. So there's nothing to look at. The train was disgusting. It was so dirty and I was pregnant. So my, you know, my sense of smell, which is already very heightened was even, was just off the chain. And as a result of being on that train, I developed3 (10m 24s):Vertigo. I'm like, God, I mean,1 (10m 26s):It was coincidental. I never, we never did figure out what the deal was. But I developed a kind of vertigo when I was pregnant, where I had to crawl on the floor because I couldn't, you know, cause I couldn't walk and thankfully knock on wood that has not returned to me. And it also didn't return to my next two pregnancies, but yet it soured me and us on trains. But I think it's just the route we picked. We need to pick3 (10m 57s):It's the route and yeah, definitely don't have, don't be pregnant, but that's not going to happen for you again. So you don't have to worry about that. But like I'm all done with that. And so I had a great trip and I actually had like these huge realizations while I was there about, about working about money, about the entertainment industry, it was really, it was I, and I went with the intention of really looking at what is it that I'm going for in life? I mean, that's such a huge question, but like what, where am I trying to go? And, and the idea of service, right? So I always thought being of service was about other people, but really what it is for me is being of service in the way that I want to be of service is actually for me, like I didn't realize that I feel is good for my mental, physical, and emotional health when I'm being of service in a way that feels not to pleading, but all, but like really energizing and also like a, like thinking about legacy, I've also been thinking about legacy, like what is my, what is going to be my legacy?3 (12m 12s):And it tied into like, I was really, you know, I spend because the holidays are coming up way too much. It will not wait too much, but a lot of money on my nieces and nephew for Christmas gifts, right? Like thousands of dollars, right. Dish, I love giving gifts. It's my jam. But then I realized that like, and you probably, you know, I'd be so interested to hear what you have to say, but having children, but like a lot of this stuff, I got them, they outgrow, they don't care about very soon is cheaply made and is garbagey. And it has a very, very little lasting effect on their lives. And that's just the truth and I'm not judging it.3 (12m 52s):I'm just saying that seemed, that was the data I was picking up. And I'm like, that's literally like just throwing money away after a while year after year. So there's a, let me get smart about this. So we started a trust for each kid where we put that and I said to that shutter dude, I wish someone had done that for my ass. So I said to them, you can choose, we can keep going the way we're doing with gifts for Christmas and blah, blah, blah. Or you can, we can put donate every year and you could literally get very, very, very few gifts. But your huge gift is that each year we put a certain amount of money. And then basically by the time you're 30, you'll be millionaires.3 (13m 36s):I mean, just because of the way money grows, not even because we're putting that much in. And they were like, what? And so miles really educated me and them on the power of, of the investing money in a way that is with the interest and all that shit. And so that's what we're doing. And I, I got to say like, it tied into this idea of legacy and like, I would watch rather have those kiddos like be able to use it. And it's not like one of these things where they have to use it for college because fuck it, man, not everyone goes to goddamn college right away or ever, but they can't touch it until they're a certain age or they can choose to keep it in there and roll it over to another kind of account or whatever.3 (14m 17s):So, but I'm thinking about this shit differently in terms of legacy based on like, what do I want to leave this earth? Like, do I want to, you know, have, have my legacy be that I gave my, my niece to like a fake Dior ring that turned her finger green or right, right. It's fine. But it's so that's how we started it this Christmas. Cause I was like enough, enough, enough. Yeah. Yeah. Well, what you've just given us here in this conversation is like the center of a1 (14m 51s):Bicycle wheel by the goal wheel. And we have a, there's a bunch of spokes there. There's like talking about what's your purpose in life and where are you going? And there's talking about your legacy and then there's talking about consumption. And then there's talking about instant gratification that we give to kids in the form of gifts. And there's talking about that a lot, the pressures that we put on ourselves on Christmas, I mean just suffice it to say, I have been on the sometimes what feels like the circular journey of, you know, from, I mean, you know, when, when I first had kids, when we first had kids, it was really exciting to give the gifts.1 (15m 33s):It was exciting to create a Christmas that I remember from my childhood, the excitement of coming downstairs3 (15m 40s):And magic magic1 (15m 43s):1000%. And, and that sustained me for the period of time that the kids are literally happy to get whatever the minute it turned. And it turned when the oldest one was not that old. Yeah. I'm going to say like seven. Yeah. Yeah. And he, they had a bunch of presents and they opened everything up. And then he said, is that it? Yeah. And I went, oh damn, we're doing this wrong. We're doing it completely wrong. And so we've had a few Christmases and this is one of them where we're not doing gifts, which is to say, there will be stockings, you know, and maybe one little thing, but we're not doing the multiple presents under the trees.1 (16m 31s):We didn't do multiple Eddy presents for Hanukkah because of exactly what you said, toys is five to 15 minutes of joy for a lifetime, literally a lifetime of trash that I then, then it becomes my job to get rid of organized, find a space for a blood body block. And now the kids are pretty much almost all of them at an age where they don't want any of those things anymore. They want money, they want electronics. They want, so we have the way that we save money for them is not in the, for like Christmas, but that's actually a really good idea.1 (17m 12s):And something going to bring up with my husband and says,3 (17m 15s):Yeah, I mean, for those of us, I think it's a great idea. And also it's so much easier, not easy. Well, I don't know for miles and I don't have kids, so it's not in our face all the time. And we moved away from them. It's a different story when you're in under the same roof with being with children, with beings, small beings that, you know, are you so I, I am very aware that we have like the we're the aunt and uncle to different, it's a different deal. But like we just thought, wait a minute.1 (17m 44s):Yeah. And the thing that you're really after when you give a gift or at least I think is the joy that it brings to the person and, and that's great, but like you're saying most of the time, it's a, it's a very fleeting. And also like you don't want to teach kids that this is the way to direct your joy, right? Like from getting things, right. I'm not saying that that's, that's what you're definitely doing. If you give Christmas present, I'm not saying that. But you know, we just live in this very like consumer oriented culture,3 (18m 17s):The kid's fault. It's nobody's fault. It's a system, it's a systemic situation, but it hit me last. When I really, when I really was like, okay, I want to do this differently. It was last Christmas. My youngest niece wanted and got it is not knocking anyone involved, but it was very clear to me that we, it was really stark about what was going on. She wanted a claw machine, a mini Kalama machine from an arcade that literally just had candy in it, candy bars. And you made this loudest noise you've ever heard, took 10 batteries, 10 big ass batteries.3 (19m 7s):And literally there's candy in it. That's killing us all the sugar and look, you know, whatever. That was the least of my worries. But I was like, this is wait, what?1 (19m 16s):That's interesting. That has me3 (19m 20s):Wait. And it was a, probably a really expensive machine. It's not cheap, but that's what she wanted. My sister got it. And look, I'm not knocking anyone involved, but for me, I was like, it was so, so striking about what was going on. Cause it was so loud and obnoxious.1 (19m 39s):Let me ask you this. What do you remember getting for Christmas? Okay.3 (19m 42s):My favorite thing I ever got, this is so crazy in my life when I was a kid kid was okay. Two things I can tell the first gift that I like went Gaga, Google over was something, it was a makeup kit called fresh and fancy. And it had, it had perfumes. It had, and it was probably, you know, 9 99, 99 at Kmart. But like my sister and I each got one and it, what, what it was, was super fun, super adult, super smelled. So good. And I, there is a picture of me opening it up and in, in my I'm saying fresh and fancy.3 (20m 27s):And then I take the picture.1 (20m 30s):Do you have that picture accessible?3 (20m 33s):Yeah, I think so. I can send it, send it, send1 (20m 36s):It. Yeah.3 (20m 38s):I will send that and to fresh and fancy. Okay. That was number one. And then the second gift I remember as an adult getting that was really moving to was my mother who traveled all the time and who I really sort of labeled as a selfish, kind of a human at times gave my sister and I each a ticket, a plane ticket to go anywhere in the world because she had so many miles. But like the fact that she, she thought about us and the fact that her travel, which as a child brought so much grief to me because she was gone all the time that she was then turning it around and giving my sister and I each a plane ticket to anywhere was really moving to me and also was really abundant and felt like that's awesome.3 (21m 25s):You know, is that when you went to Columbia, that's when I went to Prague by myself for a week and a half, which was insane or two weeks, it was crazy, but1 (21m 34s):Oh yeah,3 (21m 37s):It was in, when I lived in LA, it was a long time ago. So, and I, I, I, it just, so I wish I had gone with somebody else. It was the most lonely, it was beautiful and Prague is crazy and, and fun, but I went alone, but that's like really just indicative of where I was at in my LA life. So it doesn't, that's not shocking to me. What about you? Like, what do you remember being like, oh my God,1 (22m 0s):I got to speak and spell. I, I really, I really coveted speak and spell. And for those of you who don't know a speak and spell is just, would be an app now. And it wouldn't be nearly as fun. This was a self-contained. It was like a really thick version, like a three inch thick version, maybe note or two of an iPad. And it was orange and it had a handle built into the top and it would say a word in a computerized voice, like structure, and then you'd have to spell it. And if you got it right, this is the, so this tells you a lot about my psychology, the high, I got that little sound telling me I spelled something, right.1 (22m 43s):I just felt like I could, I was vanquishing Rome. It was, I felt so powerful that I got a bike one year. That was amazing. And I kind of lip gloss that smelled like root beer.3 (22m 57s):Oh, I know that those1 (22m 59s):Are the things that just like off the top of my head. I remember just falling in love with, and, and being, you know, unequivocally joyful, happy with moments. And that's the thing that you're always after, like for yourself or the people that you love, you want to impart this joy. That's what I was going to get you. Like, you want to impart this joy and then there's this tacit thing about like, you better feel joy from this. At least that's what I find myself, you know, evaluate whether or not this person is feeling joy from it, because that's what I want. I want to give them joy of this present. And then I feel sad if it doesn't work out.3 (23m 38s):Yeah. And, and, and, and, and it, it usually doesn't work out like that only because people aren't mind readers people don't, everyone's different. And Joy's so, so personal. And so, so specific to that person. And it's like, it's just such a setup, but it's also, we keep trying and I'm going to still, I still love giving presents, but I now am like, oh, okay. Can't be for me, like the mass quantity of just, yeah. Crap. Like, it really hit me too. Like I bought one year, my niece was really into Shopkins.3 (24m 19s):Remember, oh yeah. I bought like $200 worth of Shopkins for her.1 (24m 23s): lasted for that year. And then she makes, never picked up shots.3 (24m 29s):Not even the whole year, maybe a month.1 (24m 32s):That's the thing, man. They get, and they get, and I, I, I was going to say, this is especially true for girls, but I'm, I'm going to re revise that because the boys did it too. When they love that thing, it's all they care about. It's their whole world. You know, my daughter said to me all, I, the only thing I want you to get me is just tons and tons of puppets. What's a3 (24m 58s):Pocket.1 (24m 59s):A pocket is a PLA silicone flat toy that has these half hemisphere, a half a hemisphere that you put, like you, it's a satisfying sensation to push it in. And then you flip it over and push it the other way. Shit.3 (25m 24s):What's in that what's in the pocket, like a little creatures,1 (25m 28s):Zero, nothing. It's in the shape of whatever you want it to be in the shape of it's a fidget choice. Essentially. I3 (25m 36s):Understand. It's like an ASMR founding,1 (25m 39s):Totally tile. It doesn't make a sound. It's all about it being tactile. Yeah. And, and, you know, go to the stores and they're everywhere. Puppets. You'll see if you start looking for now, you'll see that they're everywhere. And so that's what she wants. And a half of me completely wants to indulge that wish. And the other half of me says, I'll be throwing these all away in six months. And then I'll feel like an asshole because I spent a bunch of money on something that I knew was a fool's errand.3 (26m 10s):Yeah, I'm right. It's like so hard because they believe they really want it.1 (26m 18s):They really, it's3 (26m 18s):Not, it's not a joke. It's not a, it's not a joke. Like that's their jam.1 (26m 24s):Yeah. So this year we're going skiing for Christmas. That's3 (26m 27s):Our part of New Hampshire.1 (26m 29s):We're going to Vermont. And I think I've told everybody on the podcast I do. That's right.3 (26m 35s):You'd like the ski lodge into, right?1 (26m 38s):Yes ma'am. So I go and I get everybody off in the morning to their little activities and it's as, you know, a huge amount of work, then the gear and the schlepping. So I help everybody get to that. And I get back to my little cozy spot and read and write and just hang out that sound. So I'm really looking forward to it. Yeah. And honestly, that's the thing that people I I'm banking on. Cause this will be the third time we've done a trip instead of presence. And, and these are trips that we still talk about. So I think it is a good investment experiences are a better investment than3 (27m 14s):I absolutely agree. And I feel like that's the trust starting for these kids. It's like, we're gifting them with the experience of maybe like a down payment on a fricking home, a car to get them from here to there a education, like a real thing, like a thing that you need to like live your life versus a fricking fake Cuban Linx chain. I didn't even know what Cuban links were. I didn't know what was happening.1 (27m 42s):I don't know what that3 (27m 42s):Is. What is Cuban links? I oh, those1 (27m 45s):Big, Easy.3 (27m 51s):And it's just ugly. And it's also $6,006,000. What did Jackie about? Oh anyway,1 (27m 59s):I, you, you just did yourself, such a favor. I mean, you did them mostly a favor, but you did yourself such a favor because also the other thing is, you know, I have experienced, I go out shopping and I'm immediately overwhelmed and I'm trying, okay, now this one, I got this,3 (28m 14s):I asked who gets one and did, is it equal? And like,1 (28m 18s):Oh my God, it's just, it's like a, it's a hell3 (28m 33s):I thought we might start out with, I got some feedback on the, okay. So my, on the podcast from, so my, my parents' best friends, Nancy and Dave, they like helped raise me and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And they've really become like second parents. And, you know, they, they hadn't heard the podcast. So they were like, send us an episode. And I said, okay. And you know, it's always tricky because they really know me. They really know my parents. They really know my life in some ways in my childhood. So I was like, well, so I sent them an episode. I sent them the does small ocean Hooga knocker episode because Dave is a therapist and he works with people with addictions.3 (29m 13s):And I thought, oh, that might be interesting. And so the feedback is so interesting. The feedback I got was I'll read it on air because it's good. It's a podcast. Podcasts was good. Felt like a reunion. Sounds like David was deep into self-destruction before he recovered a talented guy was hoping to hear more from you. But that's for selfish reasons. I like how you identified the macro themes in your Roundup at the end. And then I wrote, thank you so much. We're we Gina and I are always aware that like, like, you know, we don't want it just to be us and we don't want to just to be guests.3 (29m 54s):So we're trying to find a mix. So his feedback it's so funny. He liked, he likes to give feedback. You know, if you and Gina are willing to talk about what life experiences brought you to embrace the arts and try and make a decent living, I liked the way you have reconstructed your family life so that you don't have to be an emotional casualty. There's a lot to talk about how you both learn to think from, from psychodynamic and systems orientation. I don't even know what that means. I'm not smart enough. The best stories are the stuff of good soap operas, good screenwriting can teach people how to better understand and navigate within their interpersonal worlds.3 (30m 36s):I'd like to hear another one, if you don't mind the feedback. So Loves our inter you know, he's, he's a therapist, obviously. So he loves that. But it was interesting. I mean, I seriously don't know what half of that means, but like,1 (30m 54s):No, he just means no, he just means like the thing, I mean here, here's this big secret that we've never told anybody, this podcast is not really about theaters. Right. And so what you saying is the, the, the psychodynamic for, you know, background that we have influences and informs our conversation so that we, we think about things dynamic and that's it. And that would be interesting to a therapist. Therapist thinks about things dynamically too. And yeah, I mean, honestly, it there's so much it's, so there's always so much to talk about. There's so much to talk about. Like, and I, well, the thing I, this ties into the thing that I kind of wanted to talk to you about, which is that when we first started recording a podcast, it was not, I survived theater school.1 (31m 44s):We were calling undeniable, right.3 (31m 46s):That's right.1 (31m 47s):And we had about eight, you know, hour long conversations that were about this concept of being undeniable. So I kind of wanted to clarify for people who may not know why is our company called undeniable? Why is not the website? Because when you told the great story about it, we didn't never air that till we did. So, no, because it was, it was for,3 (32m 20s):We never found and they tried to send to you and then it got1 (32m 23s):No, no, no, no, no. I'm just saying like, we recorded those and then we changed our mind about what the3 (32m 29s):Right. Yes. Okay. Yes. That makes sense. Oh, should we tell the story? Yeah. So it's so funny because I wonder if he ever heard this, if he would even remember, you know, it's so funny, like who remembers telling people what? All right. So the story is this. So I, well, first to say that, like you and I were talking about like, what, what is the thing of life? Like, what is again, where I'm at now, which is what are we going after, right. Like, what is the quality of life that I'm going after that you're going after that we're going after as a team. Okay. So it reminded me of this story of I did a solo show and it was called why not me love cancer and Jack White and the woman who was, and it was a solo show basically about cancer and about working for Nick cage and all kinds of things.3 (33m 19s):Just like I surprised theater school is not about theater. School is not really about Jack White, my show, you know, it's whatever. So, okay. So I'm doing this show. And my, the director of my show is this woman named Alison lion. And she happens to be good friends with the comedian and storyteller and actor, Jeff Garlin who I, I didn't know from Adam, like I wasn't a curb, your enthusiasm fan. So I didn't know, but I knew he of him. And I knew he's like a famous guy. Right. So she said, you know, how would you feel about Jeff? Garlin coming to see a dress rehearsal and giving notes. And I was like, oh, sure. Literally being like, oh, a famous person wants to come see my show.3 (34m 0s):That's cool. You know, not like, what can I glean from this artist? You know, just cause that's, that's where my mind went. I would've have been the same. I mean, I just am not mature enough for whatever, so, okay. So I do the, it was, it, it was real nerve and it was an empty house, but him, he and Alison were sitting up there at stage 7 73 on Belmont in Chicago. And so I did the show and whatever, and it was an okay show. I mean, I look, I don't know, but afterwards, if such an interesting story afterwards, he was giving notes to Alison, but not me. And I thought, well, that's weird, but he was really there for her.3 (34m 42s):That was her mentor kind of, you know, her comedy mentor. But then I came out of the house into the house and met and met Jeff and he was lovely. And he said, well, do you want notes? Or somehow it came up like, do I want actor notes? And I was like, of course, which is shocking to me because I never want notes. Right. And I always say, I would love feedback. And by feedback, I mean, compliments, like, that's my . I did say of course, because that's what you say when a fancy person wants to give you notes. And he gave me some great notes, which was stopped swearing so much. And he compared me to Robin Williams, which was amazing.3 (35m 22s):He said, because I could tell he called him by his first name. I do believe he was like, when Robin would swear a lot, I would know that he was, he was, was dying on stage, was off. Yeah. And I was like, that's fascinating or pushing, like I push when I'm swearing. Okay. Great note. I've I've kept that note and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. All right. So then, then I have to tell us, because it's so interesting because I would have done the same thing. So then after he gave notes, which I kind of blacked out some of them, cause it was a lot, but then he, Alison, we're going to go out to eat at clerks on Belmont, but they didn't invite me. Right. And I was like, oh, and then I was in the bathroom and Alison called and she's like, I'm an idiot.3 (36m 5s):I didn't invite you. Do you want to come? And I was like, oh, of course. Yeah. She, and I think what happens is when you're around famous people, you forget, you1 (36m 13s):Lose your census. It's3 (36m 15s):Very weird. It's a weird thing. I think that's what happened for, so we went to Clark's on Belmont and he, we taught he's so what is he? He's he's a generous. No, he's, he's a big personality. So he takes over rooms. Right? So at clerks, he's the center of the show and it is not anything he's doing. It's just, that's how some people are like,1 (36m 42s):He's not trying to lay low. Right. He's3 (36m 45s):Not trying to lay low. And he also loves people I think, and loves human interaction. I mean, from what I know, as we got into this conversation and somehow, and he said, and he said to me, we were talking about acting and we were talking and he said, I'm going to make a movie and you're going to be in it one day. And I said, that's fantastic. I love that. That's great. That sounds great. And then we talked about other stuff and then he said, you know what you are? And I said, what? And he said, you are undeniable. And I was like, what is even happening? And I was like, okay, thanks. Great. He's like, no, no, no. You're undeniable. Like that show is undeniable.3 (37m 26s):And I was like, what does that mean? And he said, well, it just means that like eat exists in its truest form unapologetically. And I'm totally paraphrasing here, of course. But it was like, it exists in its truest form. It's just is you don't have to like it. You don't have to like, you, you don't have to like what you're saying, but there is a quality that cannot be taken away about the show. It's more than unique. It's more than that. It's undeniable. You don't have to like it. You don't have to dislike it, but it, it exists on its own. And it cannot be basically cannot be fucked with in, in, in that way, you know? And I was like, whoa, that is awesome. And that I feel like is what I'm going for in my life.1 (38m 10s):Yeah. And, and when you told the story before you also said that, that he said, you know, be undeniable continue to be undeniable because that, that is ultimately the only thing that lasts in terms of, you know, the industry or whatever. And as long as you're holding true to, you know, your own undeniable truth or whatever, you can, you know, you can't go wrong. It may not mean that you, whatever, get fame and fortune, but, but you'll be doing, you'll be on the right track.3 (38m 40s):You won't be led astray by your undeniable city. Like you, you won't be, it won't be, you won't go in the wrong direction for too long. If you use an deniability as your north star kind of a thing. And it really, and he, he later told Alison, you know, she's, you know, he kept reiterating like she's undeniable, she's undeniable. And he, and Alison had told me, and I, of course, because, you know, I just figure people say that about everybody analysis and no, he does not do that. And also he stands by his word. So you will one day be in a movie with Jeff Garlin and I was like, cool, great. That's fine. But I it's interesting looking back on the story, it's like, I wish everyone is so scared.3 (39m 24s):Like I wish that I would have used those quotes in my press, but Alison didn't want to use them because she felt she was already asking too. We're all, we always feel like we're asking too much. So she felt that she, she was asking too much just having him come to the show and having him give notes was enough and having him. And I remember at the time I had a musician as part of the show, you know, his name is Philip Michael scales. He's amazing. And he was like, we should totally use Garland's quotes to get more people to come to the show and both Alison and I, it's interesting, both Alex and I were like, oh no, no, no, no, like he's done enough.3 (40m 4s):You know, it's just so1 (40m 5s):Like, yeah. Like, and all I'll do to Alison I would've made probably the same choice, but you know, it's like, what are we so afraid of? What skin is it off of his nose? If you say that he said something that he said, you know what I mean? It's not like his reputation is living or dying on your show. It's just,3 (40m 25s):I mean, yeah. I would have done the same thing too. And I1 (40m 30s):That's the mentality that we've talked about so much on here, and it's definitely true for Hollywood entertainment, whatever, but it may also just be true for life that we kind of inherently have this idea that there's a finite pie. Sure. And you know, it's kind of like the people who think that only whatever 7,000 people are going to heaven, you know, what kind of cockamamie thing is that like you believe in heaven, you believe that all of this is God's plan and that people have been alive for millions of years and yet only 7,000 feet. Right. That to me is like a perfect evidence of the way in which we make ourselves and our, and the possibility so much smaller than they need to be.1 (41m 15s):Yes. So you think there's a finite amount of pie and you say, well, I can't take my one, one thousandths of a sliver, you know, that's Jeff Garlin because then there won't be any Jeff Garlin left. Like that's just simply not how it works. It's just simply, you know, anyway, the reason I said generous is because, I mean, you know, whatever, he has a friendship with her, but, but offering the feedback to you and then offering this truth about identifying your and deniability, which I'm guessing was one is one of the things that you carry with you. Okay.3 (41m 53s):Yeah. I mean, I do think, I do think that he's, that that was very generous of him. Like, and, and I do think that he and I do carry it with me and, and it obviously had an effect on me because I tell the story and because, you know, we, that you and I started a whole company around the idea of being undeniable, but like, and yeah, it, it really was like an affirmation, right. To just fucking pick a side already, like, like take a stand, like do something like th th th the gold boldly in one direction, because this sort of, this sort of, wishy-washy trying to please everybody, it, it, it not only does it not, it's not, it's a totally unpleasant, it actually doesn't work for the thing that you think you want.3 (42m 45s):Like, if you want notoriety power, fame, fortune, you have to pick a side at some point. Okay. But if you also want to feel good and be led, like we're saying by your north star, you could, you could use your, and deniability as a north star to eventually mean that sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly to get to a place where you really feel like you're doing right by yourself. If you follow your undeniable, whatever that means to you. So, yeah, he changed my life. Like that changed my life. I mean, the show did the sh you know, looking back on the show, I spent so much money. I would say, like, to be, if I'm completely honest, it was like a $25,000 investment I made over from 2012 to 2015 or whatever.3 (43m 31s):And, and I didn't bring in one dime, you know, I didn't make, make a dime, but it was, I would've done things differently, but I still I'm glad I did it. And, and that's one of the reasons stories. And one of the reasons I'm glad I did it was because I learned that lesson about being undeniable from Jeff Garlin. And yeah,1 (43m 55s):I don't think he went to theater school, but he needs to come on the podcast, you know, tell him that and, and, and hear more about his, his thoughts about, and deniability. So, so that you have shared that story with me, which really even moved me. I mean, it's, it's affected me. And then we linked it to this crooked, let's say path that we made, where we were pursuing this creative, creative career. And then we couldn't pursue it because we needed to make money. And we thought it would be okay to do else. And ultimately wasn't. And so the creative urge or whatever is undeniable in us.1 (44m 39s):And we're basically having to listen to it instead of, you know, pushing it away. And, and we also have a belief that many, many, many people are in that exact same position at this age in life, they were pursuing something. It wasn't financially viable. They had to do something else. And that when, what we're talking to a lot of people about these days is I think a lot of people who come on the podcast are reckoning with that question. Whether it be when we ask them to come on or while we're having the conversation or in the time after.1 (45m 21s):And we hear a variety of things from, from, you know, genuine like bridge equipment is a good example of somebody who went and did something else. And I think she found her thing. Yeah. I feel like therapy. She found the right thing for her. Yeah.3 (45m 37s):And she's now taking classes again, though. Acting classes, remember? Cause she wrote us.1 (45m 43s):Oh, that's right. Okay. Well, all right. So maybe, so maybe so maybe everybody, but what, we also talked to, a lot of people who I feel are trying to convince themselves, us, that they have moved on and you know, what, if that's true for you, I don't want to take that away from anybody, but it's hard for me to believe that's true for as many people as say it is true because if you, right, if you just, if you have, if you're born with this desire to express, and then you don't exp and you don't do it, it doesn't go away. And,3 (46m 19s):And here's the kicker too, is like the secret Willie, we can let everybody in a secret that you and I, because of our childhoods. And then on top of the childhood, the training that we received as actors, and then on top of that, the training we received as clinicians, we are able, here's the secret. We can see things in you that you may not be able to see in yourself or that you think you're hiding. Like that is just the secret.1 (46m 45s):And, and I'll say as a person who is fully does this all the time, nobody's hiding anything. I'm sorry to inform you. Nobody, you whoever's walking around. They're saying nobody knows that I, blah, blah, blah. Right? Yes, they do. I mean, they may not say it to you. They may not even have that thought in the front of their mind to everybody does truly know everything. And you're only kidding yourself, right? To, to hide behind, you know, dishonesty,3 (47m 20s):You're kidding yourself that you were hiding it and you're kidding yourself that other people can't see it. And you're kidding yourself that it's working for to hide it. But it's easier said than done to not hide it. I'm not saying coming out, coming clean about your truth is easy at all. But I just want to say like, cause people always ask like, and I, I run up against this a lot in Hollywood of like, how could you tell that? Like, so-and-so really, didn't like this script. I'm like, dude, body language. Blahbity blah, blah. And they're like, I didn't get that.3 (48m 0s):I'm like, dude, you just have to like, I have training. But also you just have to really, I always say this, but like you have to be sort of a neglected child that then decided that people pleasing was the way to freedom. Then learn that that is actually not true. But then use those skills to actually be like an emotional detective for other people. It's a whole process, but you could do it if you spent enough time, but I can tell like I can, I even at coworking, like I'm going to soundproof booth. So no one could hear me. But like I, I spent five minutes with somebody and I'm like, oh my God, they hate themselves. They hate themselves a passion they're pretending not to, but they hate themselves.3 (48m 42s):And that is unfortunate because I know they have redeeming qualities. I haven't talked to them for more than five minutes. So I don't know what that is. And I don't want to talk to them for more than five minutes because I'm not their therapist or friend, but I get it. I get it. It is a super power that I think people who really have trauma and then have chosen to work through the trauma. It's a super power that we have that we can, and it's also can be a burden, like any superpower to really see what the fuck is going on with people and call it out if need be. But we don't always call it out because it's not our job.3 (49m 23s):And you know, that is something we run into on this podcast too. It's like, there are times on the podcast where I want to be like, you know, this is just full transparency where I want to be like, you're full of shit. You're full of shit. Totally terrible. You, you, you hate blahbity blah, but you don't want to tell us you hate blabbity, blah. And I understand that because I've been in the same boat and I still am in the same boat, but just know that if you come on this podcast that it kind of behooves you to just tell the truth because what? Yeah. We all see it anyway. Right, right. We just do. We all see it anyway. Yeah. In your voice, we don't even have to look at your face.3 (50m 3s):Here's the other thing about human experience? So people think, I think because it's a podcast and it's not, we don't air the video that like, they can also hide shit. Well, your voice and the, and the PA I mean, I'm giving away all the secrets here, but there are no real secrets. Like the pauses in between watching the next person we have come on is gonna be like, okay, anyway. So I feel really bad about everything in my life. And I put the pauses, the pauses in between questions and answers. It's all part of the deal. And so I just encourage people. Like, I want you to come on this podcast and feel like you can, that you you're able to be undeniable and FYI on deniability does not mean everything is great about you.3 (50m 48s):Right? Like it doesn't mean, it just means that you're telling the truth about who you are. Good, bad, ugly, weird.1 (50m 56s):Yeah. You, you could be an undeniable asshole. There's no, it's a, it doesn't have a necessarily positive connotation, but you know, if you are an asshole and you're, well, that's not a good example. If you are, if you hate yourself, let's say that's a good example. If you hate yourself, you know, you're never going to get to a place where you don't hate yourself by pretending that you don't hate yourself. You have to start with the idea that, okay, here's what I'm up against right now. Hearn's out. I really hate myself. And you know, and I'm going to have to get real about that before I can, because how could you begin to interrogate a problem that you haven't named at all? That's like, that's like, you know, getting, I don't know that to the end of a math problem without having like what the3 (51m 43s):She's learning a new language without studying one minute of the language in your life. It doesn't, it's not possible. I mean, you might get one word. Right. But by luck. But1 (51m 55s):Yeah. And my thing, and I think this is your thing too in life is just encouraging people and the reason, and I understand why people want to lie to themselves about it because it's painful or because you don't want to be a person who hates yourself. You don't want to be a person who feels unfulfilled by career traces. I get that. But, but it's like that, that you are unfulfilled or you are that you just haven't done the work of accepting.3 (52m 23s):Right. And I, and I, I definitely feel like for me, the turning point, literally in my life had to, had to do with, when I had a physical problem with my heart, where I was like, oh, this is what is happening. I haven't taken care of my body for whatever reason. Not because I'm a bad person, but because I've always shit going on and all these issues and hereditary, but I haven't done the work to, to look at this. And so now it's coming, it's now it's, it's, it's a problem. And, and, and when you're laying in the hospitals hooked up to machines and you and people are telling you, it's a problem that are trained specifically in this problem.3 (53m 7s):And you finally are faced with, oh, either I'm going to believe this or not, and acknowledge it or not. And I just was like, okay, I acknowledge it. I need to lose weight. I need to move my body and I need to eat less shitty foods and okay. That's it. It's in my face. It's in my face. It's in my face. I'm the1 (53m 25s):Hospital. Yeah. My, my wish for it to be something other than it isn't has, it helped me to have it be something other than it isn't. But my, my courage, if, if you can summon the courage to face it, then it might actually be different. So the other thing that you were talking about before was legacy, and that is, that has been a theme in my life recently too, because, you know, I realized after my sister died, like it's all over for her. I, you know how a lot of times when people die, then people will go on their Facebook account and like, write these messages to them.1 (54m 16s):You know, I miss you, blah, blah, blah. No, nobody did that on my sister's Facebook page. Nobody and no, nobody and her kids, you know, who are too young, really to use Facebook there that's because it's an old person's thing, but they have Facebook accounts and they had each written something about their mom when she died. And periodically, I checked back in to see like, what the comments are at for first of all, I don't know, 95% of the people who were making the comments, cause I haven't been in their lives, but it really ended like a few, you know, a few days after she died, it ended.1 (54m 58s):And I just thought, wow, man, there's just no trace of this first. God, I don't like that. There's yeah. It's it's really unsettling. And so recently we came in to possession of unpublished manuscript that Aaron's grandfather wrote on which sirens grandfather, his dad's dad. Okay. Aaron's grandfather was a, you know, hardcore Chicago in, he was a tool and die maker. He worked in one of these factories where whenever there was factories in Chicago and he retired when he was 70, 70 or 75 and went back and went to college and he was the oldest graduate from Roosevelt university where I teach by the way weird.1 (55m 58s):Yeah. And he was a writer and a poet and he wrote a book. Now, dear listeners, I regret to inform you. It's not a great book. You know, he could have used an editor. I'm sure. And, but it doesn't matter. The point is we receive this cream and a half of paper that's wrapped up in like a grocery bag and bound with string and it hasn't been touched3 (56m 34s):How'd you get it? How'd you get it?1 (56m 37s):His mom had it. And she sent him a bunch of stuff in that, and that was in there. So we opened it up and, and I thought to myself, okay, this is fascinating because one of the things that I think compels people to write is a desire to leave some kind of an imprint. And I'm curious how other people think or don't think or feel, or don't feel about their legacy. I mean, I guess people do it in other ways you get really rich and you name a building after yourself or by the way, they took the Sackler name off the mat. Finally they took the Sackler name off the met. Yes. And oh God.1 (57m 18s):Yes. That's a whole other thing. Watch dope. Sick with John who can aprons really good. Yeah. Anyway, people do use philanthropy. I mean, it kind of seems like, unless you're in the arts or rich, how do you have a legacy? What's your, what is,3 (57m 33s):This is a great freaking question. Like this is the question that I really been thinking about in my brain. And I, I think I have the answer for me, but I'm not exactly sure. So, all right. So I love to teach, but I love to teach a very specific population. It's a population that is underrepresented in colleges. So I I'm trying to narrow down like what I want to do with my life basically. And I think I want, I know I want to be a writer, but I was like, okay. But my realtor says I have to make 80 to a hundred thousand dollars if I want a house in California.3 (58m 17s):Okay. And I'm tired of sitting around, waiting for Hollywood to discover me. Okay. Fine. And us. So what do I do? Okay, fine. So then I've been teaching right at Roosevelt and other places and I love it. I love the 1819 year olds. Okay. Fine. I love teaching acting. I don't know. I feel like I don't really know shit about acting, but I know I do when it's mixed with psychology. Does that make sense? Okay.1 (58m 44s):A hundred percent then the other3 (58m 45s):Day I was like, and then I was like, okay, but I don't want to teach at a fancy conservatory. Like I don't, that's just, I just don't. So I was like, all right. All right. All right. So then someone sent me a listing to teach a community college, making a $90,000 a year. Community colleges paid better than a lot of colleges. And so I'm applying to teach first year actors at a community college in Glendale. And I don't know, and I don't know, and I actually think it's going to make my writing. And I think it's going to make me hustle in a different way. I don't know if I'll get the job, but I gotta say my legacy might be, cause I thought, okay.3 (59m 30s):At first I thought my legacy was going to be, and we could track it with the podcast. Right. Like I thought my legacy was going to be famous actor even though like, I don't know if that's, that is a legacy like Brando and you know, that's a legacy. That's what I thought. I thought, oh, that'll be my legacy. I'll be fancy, famous lady. Okay, fine. That did not happen. Then I thought, okay, my legacy is going to be that I'm a very sort of famous PR prolific addictions counselor, like at a social service agency. Yeah. That's going to be my legacy, but that's what I thought, like, that's my mark. That's where I'm going to leave my mark. That did not happen. Then I thought, okay, I'm going to be again, a famous actor, but maybe a solo artist. Right.3 (1h 0m 10s):And, and then, and then a screenwriter and I'll get really famous as a television writer, which still could happen. But I was like, I'm not sure that is the flavor of legacy that we're talking. I'm talking about here in terms of service, right. Service. What I want is to teach, I could teach 18, 19 year olds tangible skills that they can use then and move on in their lives and then teach their kids. Like, like that seems more in alignment with what I'm talking about in terms of legacy than just fancy screenwriter.3 (1h 0m 50s):That makes a lot of money. So, yeah.1 (1h 0m 53s):Yeah, because actually I was just having this thought yesterday, if I was ever given an award that was related in any way to theater, the first person I would think is my junior high acting teacher and teachers truly do leave some of the biggest, like good and bad. Some of the biggest legacies. I remember every single teacher I've ever had. Yeah. And w I mean, I mostly remember the ones who were really good or really bad, but they, I can think of five people off the top of my head who should be canonized as saints, because really Mrs. McDaniels, you were a prima ballerina who ended up teaching math in junior high.1 (1h 1m 37s):And you know what she did, she knew that I had just a, I was having a really hard time in junior high. And she invited me to eat lunch in her classroom every day, because I think she was at a Mexican, she didn't eat. And so she could go over the math with me cause I was having a hard time getting it. And I was just having a hard time. Sure. In general, this is seventh grade. And she provided all under the guise of teaching me math. Of course she gave me mentorship. She gave me attention. She showed me love.1 (1h 2m 19s):Right. Like what's3 (1h 2m 20s):What more could you ask for legacy I'm looking for? I'm not, I decided like, especially during COVID times, I've really been thinking, I think a lot of us have about like, what is obviously important, but also what is lasting and what is, and I thought, yeah. Okay. So, so I don't have a desire to like go into the classroom and teach, you know, I don't wanna teach psychology. I don't want to teach, but I was like maybe. And the thing that like the community colleges in California in Southern California, like I believe Pasadena city college and Glendale community college are two of the best community colleges in the country. So I'm like, okay.3 (1h 3m 0s):And it's cheap to go there. And it's a bunch of different kinds of learners and it's not just white kids that are like, I'm fucking going to be the next, I don't know whoever it's like kids that actually want to learn. And I, I mean, look, there's going to be some real assholes in there. I know it. But like I thought, oh, okay. Like also I really, really need a house with a yard. And I don't know how, I don't want to do it by, by getting an office job that I'm gonna die at. And I, and I, and then try to write on top of that.3 (1h 3m 45s):So like, I really need more space. And we were looking at houses and this all really was, was sparked by talking to a realtor, a really great realtor who also was like a very therapeutic and his approach. And he was like, listen, do you want a house in California? Yes. Okay. Do you want a two bedroom, two bath? Yes. This is how much money you each need to bring in a year. And this is how much your down payment is going to be act accordingly. He just told me that like, it's not,1 (1h 4m 16s):It's not a mystery. It's not an unknowable path. It's just like, no, no, no.3 (1h 4m 22s):It's very clear. And he was very loving, but he was also like, you, you piecemealing the piecemealing, your salary together is not going to work for this. And I was like, and I, I needed him to say that too, to know that like, it's time for me to bring in a decent amount of money. Now, if it comes, if it, if, if, if somehow it comes from your mind getting a television show or our documentary taking off. Great. But like, in the meantime, I need to feel like I am, I am not just piecemealing my shit together.1 (1h 5m 8s):Right. Because in addition to all the other things we've mentioned, you have a lot other needs that are undeniable and it is much your responsibility to meet those needs your, your need to have, you know, your own space. You need to have address, you know, that's as important to listen to as anything else.3 (1h 5m 27s):I had no idea. Like I just thought it's interesting. I, I thought that I did not have those needs. Like I thought, who cares where you live literally. I mean, I've moved 15 times. So it's like, who cares if you live in a one bedroom with two people and a dog, I care. I care a lot now I really care. And it's really, really important to me to be out. So having an outside space,1 (1h 5m 55s):And what I hear in this for you is a shift from what does it look like to other people to, what does it feel like inside of me? And it was always more important,3 (1h 6m 8s):More important. And it's also super interesting. And I think we run up against this all the time. People think that they're like, oh, you're not going to be an actor anymore. Like you're not going to audition anymore. And I'm like, I don't think so. It's not like it's like I had the other night. I had the experience. So I get off the train right at eight o'clock the day before I got an audition from my agent for self-tape for a show in Chicago, that's a procedural show, you know, and that everyone auditions for in Chicago. And I got a self-tape quick turnaround. I had to get off and I chose to, I got off the train, dropped my stuff, picked up.3 (1h 6m 50s):My friend came to coworking and was up til midnight filming this scene. It's not a good scene. I'm not good. I'm not good in the scene because I don't, I'm, I'm not, I was having trouble memorizing because it's late at night. And then, and then I turned to my friend and I just said, you know, and, and I'm not paid, obviously we're not paid for the audition. If I book it, I have to go to Chicago on my own dime, stay in a hotel on my own, or place my own plane fare. I hate to fly to do this thing. That's going to terrorize me on set for a day to make $900.3 (1h 7m 32s):What the fuck am I doing? So I turned to my friend and I just said, who was nice enough to stay up with me till midnight, taping this in the fucking coworking space. I turned to her and I said, I don't want to do this anymore. And she said, okay. And she said, okay. I mean, she doesn't give a shit. She's a writer. She's not an actor. She doesn't, but she's like, okay. And I was like, yeah, this is no, no, no, it's not. That is not my legacy.1 (1h 8m 0s):Right.3 (1h 8m 1s):So it's very clear. So now I'm going to, I'm just, I'm not, I'm having calling my agents1 (1h 8m 8s):And you can't know until, you know, I mean, like that reality couldn't hit you until it did. I'm like, no, so yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, good for you. I mean, part of life is figuring out what it's not, and as much as it is figuring out what it is. Yeah. So4 (1h 8m 34s):If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable in production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez and Gina plegia are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited, and sound mixed by Gina Culichi for more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc. Please visit our website@undeniablewriters.com. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you. 

00:00 - Intro01:33 - We're in an muriatic acid shortage. Thanks, COVID.02:21 - Two specialty acids: modified Muriatic Acids for less fuming: AcidBlue and AcidMagic. 03:06 - Muriatic acid is a diluted form of Hydrochloric acid (HCl). It is 31.45% HCl or less.04:14 - Sulfuric acid (H2SO4) is sold in 38.5% concentration. It is comparable in dosing to standard 31.45% HCl. It takes just 2% more sulfuric acid to equal muriatic by volume.09:36 - Sodium bisulfate (NaHSO4) is sold in 93.2% concentration. It is also known as "dry acid", or in pool retail stores, "pH down" or "alkalinity down". It is safer to handle than liquid acid, but needs to be pre-dissolved before adding to the pool.11:48 - Let's talk about sulfates (SO4--) or (SO3--).12:05 - One gallon of 38.5% sulfuric acid leaves behind 47.1 ppm of sulfates in 10,000 gallons.13:19 - One pound of 93.2% of sodium bisulfate leaves behind 9.6 ppm of sulfates in 10,000 gallons, plus salt.14:58 - even in perfectly LSI-balanced water, if you have high enough sulfates, you can still have etching of cement. The sulfate ion (SO3--) can become the dominant ion and kicks carbonate off of calcium (Ca++) and create calcium sulfate.  Enough calcium sulfate can precipitate a sharp crystalline scale.18:08 - The only way to reduce sulfates is to drain and dilute.  Unless you have Reverse Osmosis (R.O.) available. If you're going to use sulfuric or sodium bisulfate, you must regularly schedule dilutions to avoid sulfate problems.19:53 - Sulfates and metals can combine to create that infamous 'rotten egg' smell. We think of it as sulfur, but it's usually iron sulfate or some variant.21:08 - The third alternative for pH reduction is injecting carbon dioxide (CO2). It reduces pH but does not reduce alkalinity. In fact, alkalinity tends to rise due to excess lye from chlorine.22:18 - Acid only introduces more CO2 (to reduce pH) is to burn through alkalinity and convert it into carbonic acid.  And Joe thought I was asking a trick question. There is no CO2 in acid.24:39 - One pound of CO2 is equivalent to 32.8 fl.oz. of standard Muriatic Acid for pH correction.27:08 - Summary------------------------------------Connect with Orenda TechnologiesWebsite: https://www.orendatech.comBlog: https://blog.orendatech.comYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/OrendaTechnologiesFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/orendatech/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/orendatechnologies/

CSAPON! podcast #30 - a sörfőző és a víz #2 a vízről is legalább annyit tudunk csapongani mint bármilyen átfogó sörközeli témáról, ebben is van még legalább másfél óra ezen kívül. az epizódban főképp a tisztításról és szűrésről van szó - a szokásos ezer ami-eszünkbe-jut-épp mellett. beszélnek: Barla Roland, Mezei Krisztián, Posta Viktor, és Nyaras Tamás fontosabb témáink: - #kimitiszik - víztisztítás, fertőtlenítés - sörfőző víz előkészítése - RO azaz Reverse Osmosis azaz fordított ozmózisos vízszűrés - TDS és vezetőképesség mérés RO készülékeknél - van-e értelme? - miképp gyűjtsük a vizet és mire használjuk a "szennyvizet" - szokásos hülyezene a végére show notes: - Roland féle Guinness vízprofil: Na 14ppm, Ca 90ppm, Mg 20ppm, Cl 22ppm, SO4 47ppm, Bikarbonat 200ppm, pH 7.7. 32l viz, ozmo (RO) - budai csapvíz 50-50%, sók: 0,1g CaCO3, 0,63g CaCl, 1,3g CaSO4 - Viktor otthoni vízszűrője, mert annit beszélünk róla, de EZ NEM RO!!! - Aquafilter FP3-HJ-K1N (google, bátrabbaknak bing)

In der vorletzten Folge der aktuellen Staffel überblicken Pillo und Niko alle drei Bundesligen und sind voller Vorfreude auf ein spannendes Fußballwochenende. Alle? Nein. Niko fiebert besonders mit, wenn sein Team aus Bremen erneut gegen den Abschied spielt. Soll es wirklich so sein, dass beide Vereine des Podcasts, Schalke und Werder, in die zweite Liga absteigen. Auch Pillo wird Bremen die Daumen drücken. News für die kommende Saison haben die beiden auch im Gepäck. Viel Spaß mit der Folge!

On the Vox Markets Podcast Today: 4th May 2021Tony Swiericzuk, CEO of Salt Lake Potash #SO4 talks about the "Significant progress" they're making towards first SOP sales in the June quarter and positive cash flow thereafter.Glen Goodman, former ITV News Business correspondent and now author of, "The Crypto Trader", covers this week's all time high in Ethereum, Ruffer selling Bitcoin and the red flags surrounding HyperFund.(Interview starts 12 minutes 5 seconds) Plus the Top 5 Most Followed Companies & the Top 5 Most read RNS's on Vox Markets in the last 24 hours.Vox Markets is revolutionising the way companies engage with shareholders and the stock market at large. By aggregating IR and digital content onto one secure and compliant platform, Vox Markets has established itself as the go-to resource for the investment community.#VoxMarkets #StockMarket #LivePrices #StockMarketNews #Money #Investing #Investments #Finance #Business #Podcasthttps://www.voxmarkets.co.uk/

On the Vox Markets Podcast Today: 23rd March 2021Tony Swiericzuk, Chief Executive Officer of Salt Lake Potash #SO4 explains the significance of commencement of Process Plant commissioning at its Lake Way Project.Glen Goodman, former ITV News Business correspondent and now author of, "The Crypto Trader", covers this week's Bitcoin, Blockchain and Cryptocurrency news.(Interview starts at 9 minutes and 10 seconds)Plus the Top 5 Most Followed Companies & the Top 5 Most read RNS's on Vox Markets in the last 24 hours.Vox Markets is revolutionising the way companies engage with shareholders and the stock market at large. By aggregating IR and digital content onto one secure and compliant platform, Vox Markets has established itself as the go-to resource for the investment community.#VoxMarkets #StockMarket #LivePrices #StockMarketNews #Money #Investing #Investments #Finance #Business #Podcasthttps://www.voxmarkets.co.uk/

On the weekend podcast we do a vaccination quiz, talk about the economic game changer, an investment analogy, the Cymru covid carry on, the Santa Rally Twitter poll & the first of my EV plays…Companies mentioned in this podcast include:Escape Hunt #ESCGfinity #GFINOnTheMarket #OTMPPolarean Imaging #POLXSalt Lake Potash #SO4 Symphony Technology #SYMTrackwise Designs #TWDTHE CONTENT OF THIS PODCAST IS NOT INTENDED AS INVESTMENT ADVICE, IT IS FOR INFORMATION PURPOSES ONLY. YOU SHOULD TAKE PROFESSIONAL FINANCIAL ADVICE IN CONNECTION WITH, OR INDEPENDENTLY RESEARCH AND VERIFY, ANY INFORMATION THAT YOU FIND ON THIS PODCAST AND WISH TO RELY UPON, WHETHER FOR THE PURPOSE OF MAKING AN INVESTMENT DECISION OR OTHERWISE. WE ARE NOT REGULATED UNDER UK FINANCIAL SERVICES LAW.

On the Vox Markets Podcast Today: 11th December 2020 Tony Swiericzuk, Chief Executive Officer of #SO4 explains how their equity placing enables the financial close on the US$138m debt facility. Harvey Sinclair, CEO of eEnergy #EAAS talks about how the proposed acquisition of the Beond Group plays to their strategy of becoming a broader energy services company. (Interview starts at 12 minutes 49 seconds) Paul Hill, full time investor and equity analyst gives his view on the market and also covers: Northbridge Industrial Services #NBI Proactis #PHD Kromek #KMK (Interview starts at 17 minutes 30 seconds) Russ Mould, Investment Director at stockbroker AJ Bell talks about AirBnB as it shot over a $100bn valuation on its Wall Street debut yesterday. (Interview starts at 40 minutes 52 -seconds) Vox Markets is revolutionising the way companies engage with shareholders and the stock market at large. By aggregating IR and digital content onto one secure and compliant platform, Vox Markets has established itself as the go-to resource for the investment community. #VoxMarkets #StockMarket #LivePrices #StockMarketNews #Money #Investing #Investments #Finance #Business #Podcast https://www.voxmarkets.co.uk/

On the weekend podcast: Investing mistakes, The vaccination tipping point, portfolio rotation, the biggest trend no investor should miss out on, a substantial meal, the Welsh in lockdown, Steve's teeth retainers and news from Gfinity #GFIN Escape Hunt #ESC Polarean Imagining #POLX & Salt Lake Potash #SO4THE CONTENT OF THIS PODCAST IS NOT INTENDED AS INVESTMENT ADVICE, IT IS FOR INFORMATION PURPOSES ONLY. YOU SHOULD TAKE PROFESSIONAL FINANCIAL ADVICE IN CONNECTION WITH, OR INDEPENDENTLY RESEARCH AND VERIFY, ANY INFORMATION THAT YOU FIND ON THIS PODCAST AND WISH TO RELY UPON, WHETHER FOR THE PURPOSE OF MAKING AN INVESTMENT DECISION OR OTHERWISE. WE ARE NOT REGULATED UNDER UK FINANCIAL SERVICES LAW.

THE CONTENT OF THIS PODCAST IS NOT INTENDED AS INVESTMENT ADVICE, IT IS FOR INFORMATION PURPOSES ONLY. YOU SHOULD TAKE PROFESSIONAL FINANCIAL ADVICE IN CONNECTION WITH, OR INDEPENDENTLY RESEARCH AND VERIFY, ANY INFORMATION THAT YOU FIND ON THIS PODCAST AND WISH TO RELY UPON, WHETHER FOR THE PURPOSE OF MAKING AN INVESTMENT DECISION OR OTHERWISE. WE ARE NOT REGULATED UNDER UK FINANCIAL SERVICES LAW.On the weekend podcast: The Tier Test, Paddy's queries, Steve & Santa in Merthyr, time in the market vs timing the market, risk vs reward, incompetency at the high level, trends, guess the share price game.Co's mentioned incl: #ESC #GFIN #OTMP #POLX #SO4

THE CONTENT OF THIS PODCAST IS NOT INTENDED AS INVESTMENT ADVICE, IT IS FOR INFORMATION PURPOSES ONLY. YOU SHOULD TAKE PROFESSIONAL FINANCIAL ADVICE IN CONNECTION WITH, OR INDEPENDENTLY RESEARCH AND VERIFY, ANY INFORMATION THAT YOU FIND ON THIS PODCAST AND WISH TO RELY UPON, WHETHER FOR THE PURPOSE OF MAKING AN INVESTMENT DECISION OR OTHERWISE. WE ARE NOT REGULATED UNDER UK FINANCIAL SERVICES LAW.On the Weekend Podcast we talk about, Active vs passive investing, Coronavirus hot spots quiz, Broker accounts, Pfizer Vs Moderna Vs AstraZeneca, Mind The Titanic Covid Gap, Ramp Chat, and our share price target game.We also mention the following companies:Escape Hunt #ESC Gfinity #GFIN OnTheMarket #OTMP Salt Lake Potash #SO4

Should you buy the dip? The pros and cons of averaging up rather than down, Broker issues, trends, Pfizer Vaccine Day, Massive rally incoming.Stocks touched upon were: Escape Hunt #ESC Gfinity #GFIN OnTheMarket #OTMPPolarean #POLX Salt Lake Potash #SO4 Symphony Environmental Technologies #SYMTHE CONTENT OF THIS PODCAST IS NOT INTENDED AS INVESTMENT ADVICE, IT IS FOR INFORMATION PURPOSES ONLY. YOU SHOULD TAKE PROFESSIONAL FINANCIAL ADVICE IN CONNECTION WITH, OR INDEPENDENTLY RESEARCH AND VERIFY, ANY INFORMATION THAT YOU FIND ON THIS PODCAST AND WISH TO RELY UPON, WHETHER FOR THE PURPOSE OF MAKING AN INVESTMENT DECISION OR OTHERWISE. WE ARE NOT REGULATED UNDER UK FINANCIAL SERVICES LAW.

THE CONTENT OF THIS PODCAST IS NOT INTENDED AS INVESTMENT ADVICE, IT IS FOR INFORMATION PURPOSES ONLY. YOU SHOULD TAKE PROFESSIONAL FINANCIAL ADVICE IN CONNECTION WITH, OR INDEPENDENTLY RESEARCH AND VERIFY, ANY INFORMATION THAT YOU FIND ON THIS PODCAST AND WISH TO RELY UPON, WHETHER FOR THE PURPOSE OF MAKING AN INVESTMENT DECISION OR OTHERWISE. WE ARE NOT REGULATED UNDER UK FINANCIAL SERVICES LAW.On the weekend podcast we talk about The Vanguard Life Strategy 100% Equity Fund, the U.S. Elections, Coronavirus and the following companies: Escape Hunt #ESC Gfinity #GFIN OnTheMarket #OTMP Polarean #POLX & Salt Lake Potash #SO4Vox Markets is revolutionising the way companies engage with shareholders and the stock market at large. By aggregating IR and digital content onto one secure and compliant platform, Vox Markets has established itself as the go-to resource for the investment community.#VoxMarkets #StockMarket #LivePrices #StockMarketNews #Money #Investing #Investments #Finance #Business #Podcasthttps://www.voxmarkets.co.uk/

THE CONTENT OF THIS PODCAST IS NOT INTENDED AS INVESTMENT ADVICE, IT IS FOR INFORMATION PURPOSES ONLY. YOU SHOULD TAKE PROFESSIONAL FINANCIAL ADVICE IN CONNECTION WITH, OR INDEPENDENTLY RESEARCH AND VERIFY, ANY INFORMATION THAT YOU FIND ON THIS PODCAST AND WISH TO RELY UPON, WHETHER FOR THE PURPOSE OF MAKING AN INVESTMENT DECISION OR OTHERWISE. WE ARE NOT REGULATED UNDER UK FINANCIAL SERVICES LAW.On the weekend podcast we talk about the impending national lockdown and whether we're going to be buying or selling stocks. Plus we talk about how too much diversification can hamper your portfolio's progress, U.S. elections coronaviurs vaccines, stimulus and pull ups.Escape Hunt #ESCGfinity #GFINOnTheMarket #OTMPPolarean #POLXSalt Lake Potash #SO4Symphony Environmental Technologies #SYM

Exploration geologists are often faced with a situation where they are asked to find the Holy Grail with a small budget. In the past, potential deposits are often missed due to a lack of funding or poor targeting techniques. CSIRO has been providing solutions to the mineral exploration industry for many decades. The whole concept of understanding the weathering profile or regolith is the key to many discoveries. In this episode of Coffee with Samso, I speak to Ryan Noble who is the Principal Research Scientist for CSIRO. He works for the mineral resource business unit. Ryan shares with us the concept of using bore water to vector into potential mineralisation geology. This technique is being used with Moho Resources Limited (ASX: MOH). Ryan is working with Moho Resources on the Emperor Springs Gold Project in Queensland, Australia.   About Ryan Noble: Current activities: Ultrafine fraction soils for mineral exploration, active/smart sampling for exploration, gas geochemistry for exploration through cover, commercialisation of UltraFine+, continental-scale hydrogeochemistry, rapid and field-portable sampling and analysis for greenfields mineral exploration, role of fungi in the transformation of gold. Past President of the Association of Applied Geochemists (Chair Awards and Medals Committee), Executive Board member of Earth Science Western Australia, Member of Geoconferences WA subcommittee. Sept 2011 -June 2014 Stream Leader (Education and Analytical Services) Responsibilities: Manage projects and project leaders, reporting, project delivery and the stream budget. Run seminars, Interns, promotion activities and develop Advanced Characterisation services. Aug 2011 - Oct 2014 Research Team Leader Responsibilities: Manage Aqueous Geochemistry research team members (5-8) for capability development and deployment, annual performance, HSE and routine approvals.   Research Scientist and Laboratory Manager Projects: Uranium hydrogeochemistry, biogeochemistry and mechanisms of metal migration in soils, evolution of SO4 and NO3 related to sulfide weathering, monitoring techniques for carbon capture and storage in soil and groundwater, micro- and nano-crystal formation to simulate natural metal enrichment zones in soils and saprolite, regional hydrogeochemical mapping, hydrogeochemistry near trace metal-rich soils and rocks, predictive modelling of lithology using plant and soil chemistry, hydropedology of the WA wheat belt including studies on acid water and acid sulfate sediments, development and assessment of novel approaches to soil characterisation by soil partial extractions, reactive transport modelling of trace metal mobility related to saprolite weathering reactions. Skills: Laboratory management, General soils, regolith and water laboratory techniques, Ion Chromatography, Infrared Mineral Analyzer (ASD), C and S combustion analyzer, Scanning Electron Microscopy.

THE CONTENT OF THIS PODCAST IS NOT INTENDED AS INVESTMENT ADVICE, IT IS FOR INFORMATION PURPOSES ONLY. YOU SHOULD TAKE PROFESSIONAL FINANCIAL ADVICE IN CONNECTION WITH, OR INDEPENDENTLY RESEARCH AND VERIFY, ANY INFORMATION THAT YOU FIND ON THIS PODCAST AND WISH TO RELY UPON, WHETHER FOR THE PURPOSE OF MAKING AN INVESTMENT DECISION OR OTHERWISE. WE ARE NOT REGULATED UNDER UK FINANCIAL SERVICES LAW.On the weekend podcast we talk about why there's going to be a massive Santa rally and mention the following stocks:C4X Discovery #C4XDEscape Hunt #ESCGfinity #GFINOnTheMarket #OTMPPolarean #POLXSalt Lake Potash #SO4Symphony Environmental Technologies #SYMVox Markets is revolutionising the way companies engage with shareholders and the stock market at large. By aggregating IR and digital content onto one secure and compliant platform, Vox Markets has established itself as the go-to resource for the investment community.#VoxMarkets #StockMarket #LivePrices #StockMarketNews #Money #Investing #Investments #Finance #Business #Podcasthttps://www.voxmarkets.co.uk/

On the Vox Markets Podcast Today: 19th October 2020Tony Swiericzuk, Chief Executive Officer of Salt Lake Potash #SO4 provides an update on their first lake, Lake Way and discusses two new Board Appointments.Alan Green CEO of Brand Communications talks about: Ixico #IXI AB Dynamics #ABDP San Leon Energy #SLE(Interview starts at 15 minutes 41 seconds)Plus the Top 5 Most Followed Companies & the Top 5 Most liked RNS's on Vox Markets in the last 24 hours.Vox Markets is revolutionising the way companies engage with shareholders and the stock market at large. By aggregating IR and digital content onto one secure and compliant platform, Vox Markets has established itself as the go-to resource for the investment community.#VoxMarkets #StockMarket #LivePrices #StockMarketNews #Money #Investing #Investments #Finance #Business #Podcasthttps://www.voxmarkets.co.uk/

THE CONTENT OF THIS PODCAST IS NOT INTENDED AS INVESTMENT ADVICE, IT IS FOR INFORMATION PURPOSES ONLY. YOU SHOULD TAKE PROFESSIONAL FINANCIAL ADVICE IN CONNECTION WITH, OR INDEPENDENTLY RESEARCH AND VERIFY, ANY INFORMATION THAT YOU FIND ON THIS PODCAST AND WISH TO RELY UPON, WHETHER FOR THE PURPOSE OF MAKING AN INVESTMENT DECISION OR OTHERWISE. WE ARE NOT REGULATED UNDER UK FINANCIAL SERVICES LAW.We talk about the coronavirus lockdowns, Apple iPhone 12 & the following companies:C4X Discovery #C4XDEscape Hunt #ESCGfinity #GFINGuild Esports #GILDOnTheMarket #OTMPPolarean #POLXSalt Lake Potash #SO4Vox Markets is revolutionising the way companies engage with shareholders and the stock market at large. By aggregating IR and digital content onto one secure and compliant platform, Vox Markets has established itself as the go-to resource for the investment community.#VoxMarkets #StockMarket #LivePrices #StockMarketNews #Money #Investing #Investments #Finance #Business #Podcasthttps://www.voxmarkets.co.uk/

THE CONTENT OF THIS PODCAST IS NOT INTENDED AS INVESTMENT ADVICE, IT IS FOR INFORMATION PURPOSES ONLY. YOU SHOULD TAKE PROFESSIONAL FINANCIAL ADVICE IN CONNECTION WITH, OR INDEPENDENTLY RESEARCH AND VERIFY, ANY INFORMATION THAT YOU FIND ON THIS PODCAST AND WISH TO RELY UPON, WHETHER FOR THE PURPOSE OF MAKING AN INVESTMENT DECISION OR OTHERWISE. WE ARE NOT REGULATED UNDER UK FINANCIAL SERVICES LAW. We talk about Trump & Coronavirus and mention the following stocks:Asiamet Resources #ARSC4X Discovery #C4XDEscape Hunt #ESCGfinity #GFINOnTheMarket #OTMPPolarean #POLXSalt Lake Potash #SO4Vox Markets is revolutionising the way companies engage with shareholders and the stock market at large. By aggregating IR and digital content onto one secure and compliant platform, Vox Markets has established itself as the go-to resource for the investment community.#VoxMarkets #StockMarket #LivePrices #StockMarketNews #Money #Investing #Investments #Finance #Business #Podcasthttps://www.voxmarkets.co.uk/

THE CONTENT OF THIS PODCAST IS NOT INTENDED AS INVESTMENT ADVICE, IT IS FOR INFORMATION PURPOSES ONLY. YOU SHOULD TAKE PROFESSIONAL FINANCIAL ADVICE IN CONNECTION WITH, OR INDEPENDENTLY RESEARCH AND VERIFY, ANY INFORMATION THAT YOU FIND ON THIS PODCAST AND WISH TO RELY UPON, WHETHER FOR THE PURPOSE OF MAKING AN INVESTMENT DECISION OR OTHERWISE. WE ARE NOT REGULATED UNDER UK FINANCIAL SERVICES LAW.Companies mentioned include:C4X Discovery #C4XDEscape Hunt #ESCGfinity #GFINPolarean #POLXSalt Lake Potash #SO4Symphony Environmental Technologies #SYMVox Markets is revolutionising the way companies engage with shareholders and the stock market at large. By aggregating IR and digital content onto one secure and compliant platform, Vox Markets has established itself as the go-to resource for the investment community.#VoxMarkets #StockMarket #LivePrices #StockMarketNews #Money #Investing #Investments #Finance #Business #Podcasthttps://www.voxmarkets.co.uk/

No mundo competitivo em que vivemos é comum as pessoas serem tragadas pelo redemoinho do ativismo e não conseguirem separar um tempo em sua agenda para renovar suas forças, procurando tornar seu relacionamento com Deus mais íntimo. Elas alegam falta de tempo, criam justificativas, mas, infelizmente, não percebem que estão ficando cada vez mais vulneráveis às tentações qye as fazem pecar. Por fim, se acostumam e se deixam levar pelos conselhos dos maus, dos que não querem saber de Deus e zombam do que é sagrado. A palavra de Deus deve ser prioridade na vida do cristã. So4 ela pode realinhar nossa visão do mundo à perspectiva divina. Não podemos nos conformar com este século. Precisamos renovar a nossa mente através da Palavra de Deus. Boa audiência e que Deus te abençoe. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/pb-marcos-santos/message

THE CONTENT OF THIS PODCAST IS NOT INTENDED AS INVESTMENT ADVICE, IT IS FOR INFORMATION PURPOSES ONLY. YOU SHOULD TAKE PROFESSIONAL FINANCIAL ADVICE IN CONNECTION WITH, OR INDEPENDENTLY RESEARCH AND VERIFY, ANY INFORMATION THAT YOU FIND ON THIS PODCAST AND WISH TO RELY UPON, WHETHER FOR THE PURPOSE OF MAKING AN INVESTMENT DECISION OR OTHERWISE. WE ARE NOT REGULATED UNDER UK FINANCIAL SERVICES LAW.We mention the following companies:C4X Discovery #C4XDEscape Hunt #ESCGfinity #GFINPolarean Imaging #POLXRosslyn Data Technologies #RDTSalt Lake Potash #SO4Symphony Environmental Technologies #SYM

On the Vox Markets Podcast Today: 16th September 2020Tony Swiericzuk CEO of Salt Lake Potash #SO4 talks about Lake Way Project reaching 60% Completion.Tim Watts, CEO of Shield Therapeutics #STX discusses their interim results to 30th June.(Interview starts at 13 minutes 1 seconds)Andrew Duxbury, Finance Director of Galliford Try #GFRD talks about their final results & strategy going forward.(Interview starts at 24 minutes 8 seconds)#VoxMarkets #StockMarket #LivePrices #StockMarketNews #Money #Investing #Investments #Finance #Business #Podcasthttps://www.voxmarkets.co.uk/

THE CONTENT OF THIS PODCAST IS NOT INTENDED AS INVESTMENT ADVICE, IT IS FOR INFORMATION PURPOSES ONLY. YOU SHOULD TAKE PROFESSIONAL FINANCIAL ADVICE IN CONNECTION WITH, OR INDEPENDENTLY RESEARCH AND VERIFY, ANY INFORMATION THAT YOU FIND ON THIS PODCAST AND WISH TO RELY UPON, WHETHER FOR THE PURPOSE OF MAKING AN INVESTMENT DECISION OR OTHERWISE. WE ARE NOT REGULATED UNDER UK FINANCIAL SERVICES LAW.We talk about diversification, what's the optimum amount of stocks to have in your portfolio? We also mention the following companies:C4X Discovery #C4XDClearstar #CLSUEscape Hunt #ESCGfinity #GFINPolarean Imaging #POLXRosslyn Data Tech #RDTSalt Lake Potash #SO4Vox Markets is revolutionising the way companies engage with shareholders and the stock market at large. By aggregating IR and digital content onto one secure and compliant platform, Vox Markets has established itself as the go-to resource for the investment community.#VoxMarkets #StockMarket #LivePrices #StockMarketNews #Money #Investing #Finance #Business #Podcasthttps://www.voxmarkets.co.uk/

THE CONTENT OF THIS PODCAST IS NOT INTENDED AS INVESTMENT ADVICE, IT IS FOR INFORMATION PURPOSES ONLY. YOU SHOULD TAKE PROFESSIONAL FINANCIAL ADVICE IN CONNECTION WITH, OR INDEPENDENTLY RESEARCH AND VERIFY, ANY INFORMATION THAT YOU FIND ON THIS PODCAST AND WISH TO RELY UPON, WHETHER FOR THE PURPOSE OF MAKING AN INVESTMENT DECISION OR OTHERWISE. WE ARE NOT REGULATED UNDER UK FINANCIAL SERVICES LAW. Feedback #FDBKGfinity #GFINC4X Discovery #C4XDPolarean #POLXSalt Lake Potash #SO4United Oil & Gas #UOGVox Markets is revolutionising the way companies engage with shareholders and the stock market at large. By aggregating IR and digital content onto one secure and compliant platform, Vox Markets has established itself as the go-to resource for the investment community.#VoxMarkets #StockMarket #LivePrices #StockMarketNews #Money #Investing #Finance #Business #Podcasthttps://www.voxmarkets.co.uk/

THE CONTENT OF THIS PODCAST IS NOT INTENDED AS INVESTMENT ADVICE, IT IS FOR INFORMATION PURPOSES ONLY. YOU SHOULD TAKE PROFESSIONAL FINANCIAL ADVICE IN CONNECTION WITH, OR INDEPENDENTLY RESEARCH AND VERIFY, ANY INFORMATION THAT YOU FIND ON THIS PODCAST AND WISH TO RELY UPON, WHETHER FOR THE PURPOSE OF MAKING AN INVESTMENT DECISION OR OTHERWISE. WE ARE NOT REGULATED UNDER UK FINANCIAL SERVICES LAW. On the weekend podcast we talk about the irrelevance of A'levels on your career path, what inspired me to get into stocks & shares, Rupert Murdoch, Succession and the following companies:  C4X Discovery #C4XD Clearstar #CLSU Feedback #FDBK Gfinity #GFIN Rosslyn Data Technologies #RDT Salt Lake Potash #SO4 Symphony Environmental Technologies #SYM Vox Markets is revolutionising the way companies engage with shareholders and the stock market at large. By aggregating IR and digital content onto one secure and compliant platform, Vox Markets has established itself as the go-to resource for the investment community. #VoxMarkets #StockMarket #LivePrices #StockMarketNews #Money #Investing #Finance #Business #Podcast https://www.voxmarkets.co.uk/

THE CONTENT OF THIS PODCAST IS NOT INTENDED AS INVESTMENT ADVICE, IT IS FOR INFORMATION PURPOSES ONLY. YOU SHOULD TAKE PROFESSIONAL FINANCIAL ADVICE IN CONNECTION WITH, OR INDEPENDENTLY RESEARCH AND VERIFY, ANY INFORMATION THAT YOU FIND ON THIS PODCAST AND WISH TO RELY UPON, WHETHER FOR THE PURPOSE OF MAKING AN INVESTMENT DECISION OR OTHERWISE. WE ARE NOT REGULATED UNDER UK FINANCIAL SERVICES LAW. On the weekend podcast we talk about West Wales, beaches, coronavirus, and the following companies: C4X Discovery #C4XD Gfinity #GFIN Greggs #GRG Polarean #POLX Salt Lake Potash #SO4 Vox Markets is revolutionising the way companies engage with shareholders and the stock market at large. By aggregating IR and digital content onto one secure and compliant platform, Vox Markets has established itself as the go-to resource for the investment community. #VoxMarkets #StockMarket #LivePrices #StockMarketNews #Money #Investing #Finance #Business #Podcast https://www.voxmarkets.co.uk/

THE CONTENT OF THIS PODCAST IS NOT INTENDED AS INVESTMENT ADVICE, IT IS FOR INFORMATION PURPOSES ONLY. YOU SHOULD TAKE PROFESSIONAL FINANCIAL ADVICE IN CONNECTION WITH, OR INDEPENDENTLY RESEARCH AND VERIFY, ANY INFORMATION THAT YOU FIND ON THIS PODCAST AND WISH TO RELY UPON, WHETHER FOR THE PURPOSE OF MAKING AN INVESTMENT DECISION OR OTHERWISE. WE ARE NOT REGULATED UNDER UK FINANCIAL SERVICES LAW. We mention the following companies: Gfinity #GFIN Polarean Imaging #POLX Salt Lake Potash #SO4 Vox Markets is revolutionising the way companies engage with shareholders and the stock market at large. By aggregating IR and digital content onto one secure and compliant platform, Vox Markets has established itself as the go-to resource for the investment community. #VoxMarkets #StockMarket #LivePrices #StockMarketNews #Money #Investing #Finance #Business #Podcast https://www.voxmarkets.co.uk/

On the Vox Markets Podcast Today: 6th August 2020 Tony Swiericzuk CEO of Salt Lake Potash #SO4 discusses what the full funding of their Lake Way project means for the company and the creation of an industry in Western Australia. Stuart Gall, CEO of & Helen Jones, CFO Intelligent Ultrasound Group #MED discusses highlights from their interim results and milestones to come. (Interview starts at 17 minutes 40 seconds) Nick Lee, Investment Director at RiverFort Global Opportunities #RGO explains how warrants can significantly increase the return that they are able to achieve from its investments. (Interview starts at 28 minutes 20 seconds) Chris Bailey founder of Financial Orbit covers dividend news and the following companies: Aviva #AV. & Hammerson #HMSO (Interview starts at 33 minutes 18 seconds) Vox Markets is revolutionising the way companies engage with shareholders and the stock market at large. By aggregating IR and digital content onto one secure and compliant platform, Vox Markets has established itself as the go-to resource for the investment community. #VoxMarkets #StockMarket #LivePrices #StockMarketNews #Money #Investing #Investments #Finance #Business #Podcast https://www.voxmarkets.co.uk/

Glen Howell joins Tim for another discussion on Calcium Products. On this episode they will discuss SO4 which is a calcium sulfate. Learn how this can play a diverse role in your operation and yields! https://www.calciumproducts.com/products/so4/

On the weekend podcast talk about the book: 100 Baggers, Stocks that return 100-1 and how to find them & we mention the following stocks: Clearstar #CLSU Feedback #FDBK Gfinity #GFIN Polarean Imaging #POLX Rosslyn Data Technologies #RDT Salt Lake Potash #SO4 Symphony Environmental #SYM Vox Markets is revolutionising the way companies engage with shareholders and the stock market at large. By aggregating IR and digital content onto one secure and compliant platform, Vox Markets has established itself as the go-to resource for the investment community. #VoxMarkets #StockMarket #LivePrices #StockMarketNews #Money #Investing #Finance #Business #Podcast https://www.voxmarkets.co.uk/ THE CONTENT OF THIS PODCAST IS NOT INTENDED AS INVESTMENT ADVICE, IT IS FOR INFORMATION PURPOSES ONLY. YOU SHOULD TAKE PROFESSIONAL FINANCIAL ADVICE IN CONNECTION WITH, OR INDEPENDENTLY RESEARCH AND VERIFY, ANY INFORMATION THAT YOU FIND ON THIS PODCAST AND WISH TO RELY UPON, WHETHER FOR THE PURPOSE OF MAKING AN INVESTMENT DECISION OR OTHERWISE. WE ARE NOT REGULATED UNDER UK FINANCIAL SERVICES LAW.

Die Hinrunde ist beendet. Freud und Leid lagen dieses Jahr sehr nah beieinander. Darum sprechen Niko und Pillath über die bisher gezeigten Leistungen mit einem kleinen Ausblick auf das was sich für 2020 ändern soll.

Harikulade sistemlerle donatılmış olan vücudumuzun temel taşları hücrelerdir. Bir insanda bulunan yaklaşık 100 trilyon hücre, sebepler dünyasında canlılıklarını sürdürebilmek için sürekli gıda ve oksijene ihtiyaç duyar. Bütün hücrelere ihtiyaçları kan yoluyla ulaştırılır. Yaklaşık olarak beş litre olan kanımız, ortalama 13 km uzunluğundaki damarlarda hareket ederek en ücra köşelerdeki hücrelere kadar ulaşır. Damarlarımız farklı kalınlıktadır; çapı yaklaşık 2 cm olan aorttan, 1 cm2'lik alana 1 metresi sığacak kadar ince olan kılcal damarlara kadar değişik çapta damarlarımız mevcuttur.Genellikle sadece alyuvar ve akyuvarlardan meydana geldiği bilinen kanda; gıda maddeleri ve kan hücrelerinin yanı sıra çeşitli proteinler, ürik asit, kreatinin, aminoasit, glikoz, yağlar ve kolesterol vardır. Ayrıca çeşitli tuzlar, su, karbondioksit, sodyum (Na+), klor (Cl–), kalsiyum (Ca+2), demir (Fe+2), fosfat (PO4)-3, sülfat (SO4)-2 ve magnezyum (Mg+2) elektrolitleri gibi onlarca molekül ve iyon da vardır. Her bir maddenin mikro değerdeki eksikliği veya fazlalığı, çeşitli rahatsızlıklara yol açabilir.

Verfärbt sich die Probe während eines in situ Ramanexperimentes, wird die gemessene Ramanintensität stark abgeschwächt. Um einen Intensitätsvergleich zwischen den zu verschiedenen Zeitpunkten erhaltenen Ramanspektren zu ermöglichen, muß daher der Zusammenhang zwischen der Absorption der Proben und der gemessenen Ramanintensität berücksichtigt werden. Für die Abhängigkeit der Ramanintensität ψ∞ und der Reflektivität R der Probe gilt näherungsweise: Ψ∞=ρ I (0 ) s ⋅R ∞(1 R ∞) (1 R ∞)=ρ I (0 ) s ⋅G (R ∞) (= Ramanstreukoeffizient, s= Reflektivitätskonstante, I(0)= Eingestrahlte Lichtintensität) Es wird vorgeschlagen, daß die Reflektivität R der Probe parallel zum in situ Ramanexperiment, z.B. durch Einkoppelung einer Plasmalinie des Lasers, gemessen wird und die Ramanintensität mit Hilfe der Beziehung G (R ∞)=R ∞(1 R ∞) (1 R ∞)korrigiert wird. Die Funktion G(R ) ist hierbei proportional zur beobachteten Ramanintensität. Da der Ramanstreukoeffizient ρ proportional zu ν 4 ist, kann er durch c ⋅ν 4 ersetzt werden. Wird die Frequenzabhängigkeit von R berücksichtigt, so gibt die Funktion Ψ ∞die Abhängigkeit des Ramanstrahlungsflusses von der verwendeten Erregerfrequenz an: Ψ∞(ν)=c ν 4 I (0 ) s ⋅R ∞(ν)(1 R ∞(ν)) (1 R ∞(ν))=c I (0 ) s ⋅G (R ∞(ν))⋅ν 4 R (ν)kann direkt aus dem UV-vis-Spektrum der Probe erhalten werden. Das Maximum der Funktion Ψ∞(ν)zeigt die erwartete optimale Laserfrequenz an. Zu hohe Laserleistung kann zur Veränderungen der Probe innerhalb des Laserspots führen. Um Artefakte zu vermeiden, sollte die optimale Laserleistung durch Vergleich mehrerer in situ Ramanexperimente bei verschiedenen Laserleistungen ermittelt werden. Zirkondioxid-Proben neigen zu erhöhtem Untergrund in den Ramanspektren. Die physikalischen Ursachen dafür sind weitgehend ungeklärt, es könnte sich aber um einen Streuprozess handeln, der mit dem Hydratisierungsgrad der Probe zu tun hat. Um erhöhten Untergrund zu vermeiden, sollten diese Proben vor jedem Ramanexperiment bei Temperaturen zwischen 673 und 773 K in trockenem Sauerstoff vorbehandelt werden. Die Charakterisierung durch DTA-TG, Ramanspektroskopie, UV-vis, TPR und FTIR am unpromotierten WO3/ZrO2-Katalysator (WZ) bestätigt die in der Literatur beschriebenen Strukturmodelle 9,11,96,103 . . Die Wolframphase liegt nicht als kristallines Wolframtrioxid, sondern als amorphe Oberflächenwolframate vor, wobei die Wolframatome weitgehend verzerrt oktaedrisch koordiniert und über W—O—W-Brücken untereinander verknüpft sind. Diese Spezies sind über W—O—Zr-Brücken mit dem tetragonalen Zirkondioxid-Träger verbunden. W=O-Gruppen kommen ebenfalls vor und sättigen möglicherweise die Valenzen an den Rändern der Oberflächenwolframate. Hochtemperatur-FTIR-Spektroskopie zeigt, daß trotz Dehydratisierung in trockenem Sauerstoff bei 573 K molekulares Wasser auf dem Katalysator verbleibt. ESR-Spektroskopie an der oxidierten WZ-Probe zeigt, abgesehen von Fe 3+ -Verunreinigungen, die im Zirkondioxid-Träger lokalisiert sind, keinerlei paramagnetische Spezies. ESR-Spektroskopie und UV-vis-Spektroskopie zeigen, daß unter Reaktions-temperaturen (> 473 K) durch die Wechselwirkung mit Wasserstoff die WZ-Probe reduziert wird, wobei W 5+ -Zentren entstehen. Es können mehrere W 5+ -Zentren unterschieden werden, wobei ein O2-Adsorptionsexperiment nahelegt, daß zum einen koordinativ ungesättigte oberflächennahe W 5+ -Zentren und zum anderen tiefergelegene W 5+ -Zentren entstehen. Mit steigender Reduktionstemperatur werden zunehmend tiefergelegene W 5+ -Zentren reduziert. In weit geringerem Maße entstehen bei der Reduktion auch Zr 3+ -Zentren. Ramanspektroskopie am mit Wasserstoff reduzierten Katalysator zeigt keine nennenswerten Veränderungen, da bei den verwendeten Reduktionstemperaturen nur eine partielle Reduktion eintritt. FTIR-Spektroskopie am mit Wasserstoff bzw. Deuterium reduzierten Katalysator zeigt die Entstehung von neuen OH- bzw. OD-Gruppen. Tieftemperatur-CO-Adsorption läßt darauf schließen, daß die durch die Reduktion gebildeten OH-Gruppen weniger azide sind als die OH-Gruppen, die vor der Reduktion vorhanden sind. Insgesamt läßt sich sagen, daß die in der Literatur postulierte Bildung von W 5+ -Zentren 11,13,103,116,117 und OH-Gruppen 11,13,103,116,117,118 durch die Wechselwirkung mit Wasserstoff voll bestätigt werden kann. WZ besitzt Aktivität für die Isomerisierung von n-Pentan zu Isopentan, wobei aber neben Isopentan zahlreiche gesättigte und ungesättigte Crack-Produkte entstehen. Es wird der typische, bereits in vorhergehenden Arbeiten beschriebene Aktivitätsverlauf beobachtet. Nach einer Induktionsperiode und einem Aktivitätsmaximum kommt es zur Des-aktivierung und Stabilisierung auf niedrigem Aktivitätsniveau. Die Produktverteilung spricht weder für einen Haag-Dessau-Cracking-Mechanismus noch für einen monomolekularen oder bimolekularen Mechanismus. Eine mögliche Erklärung für das konstante Verhältnis der Entstehungsraten der Nebenprodukte zum Hauptprodukt Isopentan wäre, daß alle Produkte aus der gleichen höhermolekularen Zwischenstufe entstehen und somit alle Produkte über den gleichen Reaktionsweg (Reaktionsweg A) gebildet werden. Dieser Reaktionsweg steht wahrscheinlich mit höhermolekularen organischen Ablagerungen in Zusammenhang, bei denen es sich möglicherweise um Polyalkenyl-Spezies handelt. Die unpromotierte WZ-Probe zeigt Aktivität für die Hydrierung von Propen. Nach dem Prinzip der mikroskopischen Reversibiltät erscheint eine Aktivierung der Alkane durch Dehydrierung an den Wolframaten möglich, wobei das W 5+ /W 6+ -Redoxsystem ausgenutzt wird. Das Zusammenlagern der Alken-Zwischenstufen führt möglicherweise zu den höhermolekularen organischen Ablagerungen, deren langsame Bildung eine Erklärung für die Induktionsperiode wäre. Die Zugabe von Wasserstoff in den Produktstrom führt zu einer Zunahme der Selektivität für Isopentan. Dies ist wahrscheinlich auf die zusätzliche Ermöglichung eines monomolekularen Reaktionsweges (Reaktionsweg B) zurückzuführen. Dieser mono-molekulare Reaktionsweg wird durch die Reduktion der Wolframate durch Wasserstoff im Eduktstrom ermöglicht und führt zur effektiveren Desorption der Alken-Zwischen-stufen. Diese zeigen wegen der verringerten Lebensdauer / Konzentration eine geringere Tendenz, sich zu höhermolekularen Ablagerungen zusammenzuschließen. Es wird vorgeschlagen, daß bei diesem monomolekularen Reaktionsweg B die Desorption über die Hydrierung des verzweigten Alkens an den Wolframaten, d.h. über den umgekehrten Weg der Aktivierung des linearen Alkans (Dehydrierung), geschieht. Vorreduktion führt zu niedrigerer Aktivität und höherer Selektivität. Es wird keine Induktionsperiode der Gesamtaktivität beobachtet. Bei niedrigen Laufzeiten dominiert wahrscheinlich der monomolekulare Mechanismus (Reaktionsweg B). Der Einfluß des für die Induktionsperiode verantwortlichen Reaktionsweg A ist zu gering, als daß sich die Induktionsperiode auf die Gesamtaktivität auswirken würde. in situ UV-vis-Spektroskopie zeigt, neben starker Verfärbung des Katalysators, Banden organischer Ablagerungen (405, 432, 613 nm), die mit zunehmender Laufzeit stärker werden. Es handelt sich wahrscheinlich um Polyalkenylkationen, die mit dem Reaktionsweg A in Zusammenhang stehen. Die Kettenlänge der Polyalkenylkationen scheint sich mit zunehmender Laufzeit zu vergrößern. in situ Ramanspektroskopie zeigt die Bildung prägraphitischer Ablagerungen. Zunehmende Laufzeit, die Zugabe von Wasserstoff in den Produktstrom sowie Vorreduktion des Katalysators haben keinerlei Einfluß auf die Art der Ablagerungen. Es kann keinerlei Zusammenhang zwischen der beobachteten Aktivität / Selektivität und der Bildung der prägraphitischen Teilchen beobachtet werden. Die beobachteten prägraphitischen Teilchen stehen mit der Isomerisierungsreaktion nicht in Zusammenhang, sondern sind ein Nebenprodukt. Sie tragen möglicherweise, aber nicht ausschließlich, zur Desaktivierung des Katalysators bei. in situ ESR-Spektroskopie zeigt die Bildung von organischen Radikalen sowie von oberflächennahen W 5+ -Zentren nach der Reaktion mit n-Pentan. Die Bildung von organischen Radikalen ist möglicherweise ein Hinweis auf eine schrittweise Oxidation zum Alken. Möglicherweise sind die beobachteten Radikale aber auch auf höhermolekulare, ungesättigte organische Ablagerungen zurückzuführen. Der mit Platin promotierte Katalysator PtWZ wird durch die Wechselwirkung mit Wasserstoff erheblich leichter reduziert. Analog zu der unpromotierten Probe führt die Reduktion der Wolframate zu W 5+ -Zentren und OH-Gruppen. ESR-Spektroskopie zeigt, daß alle bei 673 K reduzierbaren Zentren auch bei Raumtemperatur reduziert werden. Tieftemperatur CO-Adsorption läßt darauf schließen, daß die durch die Reduktion gebildeten OH-Gruppen weniger azide sind als die OH-Gruppen, die vor der Reduktion vorhanden sind. Die Effekte sind darauf zurückzuführen, daß Pt die Reduktion mit Wasserstoff katalysiert, wobei der Wasserstoff dissoziativ auf der Platinoberfläche adsorbiert wird und auf die Wolframate übertritt („Spillover“). Die in der Literatur postulierte erleichterte Reduktion der Wolframate durch Wasserstoff bei der An-wesenheit von Platin unter Bildung von W 5+ -Zentren 11,13,103,116,117 und OH-Gruppen 11,13,103,116,117,118 kann bestätigt werden. PtWZ zeigt bei der Isomerisierung von n-Pentan ohne Wasserstoff eine leicht erhöhte Aktivität gegenüber der unpromotierten Probe WZ. Das verstärkte Auftreten von Alkenen wird auf Nebenreaktionen an den durch das Alkan partiell reduzierten PtOx-Partikeln zurückgeführt (Reaktionsweg C). Die Zugabe von Wasserstoff in den Produktstrom bei der Isomerisierung von n-Pentan an PtWZ führt zu einer ca. 60 mal höheren Aktivität im Vergleich zur maximalen Aktivität von WZ sowie zu Selektivitäten für Isopentan von ca. 95%. Erhöhte Aktivität und Selektivität werden auf das hauptsächliche Vorliegen des selektiv und schnell ablaufenden monomolekularen Reaktionsweges (Reaktionsweg B) zurückgeführt. Die Nebenprodukte entstehen wahrscheinlich durch Hydrogenolyse des n-Pentans an den Platinpartikeln (Reaktionsweg D). Vorreduktion führt zur maximalen Aktivität und Selektivität zu Anfang der Reaktion. Das Experiment bestätigt, daß die Rolle des zugegebenen Wasserstoffs nicht nur in der Reduktion der PtOx-Partikel zu metallischem Platin besteht, sondern daß Wasserstoff eine aktive Rolle bei der Isomerisierung spielt. Durch den Verlust des im System gespeicherten Wasserstoffes werden die Reaktionswege B und D, die an PtWZ in Anwesenheit von Wasserstoff ablaufen, durch die Reaktionswege A und C abgelöst, die an PtWZ in Abwesenheit von Wasserstoff ablaufen. Eisenpromotierung erschwert generell die Reduktion durch Wasserstoff. Die Wolframate der mit Eisen promotierten FeWZ-Katalysatoren (FeWZ(N) und FeWZ(S)) können erst bei einer Reduktionstemperatur von 673 K unter Ausbildung von W 5+ -reduziert werden. Bei einsetzender Reduktion der Wolframate werden die Eisen(III)-Zentren zu niedrigeren Oxidationsstufen reduziert. Es konnten keine Unterschiede im Reduktionsverhalten zwischen der FeWZ(N) und der FeWZ(S)-Probe festgestellt werden. PtFeWZ-Katalysatoren (PtFeWZ(N) und PtFeWZ(S)) werden im Gegensatz zu dem PtWZ-Katalysator bei Raumtemperatur nur in geringem Maße reduziert. Im Gegensatz zu PtWZ, wo bereits bei Raumtemperatur die maximale Intensität des W 5+ -Signals zu beobachten ist, vergrößert sich das Signal mit steigender Reduktionstemperatur. Mit steigender Reduktionstemperatur wird zunehmend Fe 3+ zu niedrigeren Oxidationstufen reduziert. Die erschwerte Reduktion ist wahrscheinlich auf einen kinetischen Effekt zurückzuführen, wobei die Eisenpromotierung einen der Platinpromotierung entgegen-gesetzten Effekt hat und die Reduktion der Wolframate kinetisch hemmt. FeWZ(N) ist unter den gegebenen Reaktionsbedingungen mit oder ohne Zugabe von Wasserstoff nahezu inaktiv. Die beiden PtFeWZ-Proben zeigen ohne Zugabe von Wasserstoff ebenfalls nur geringe Aktivität. Produktverteilung und Aktivitätsverlauf ähneln den bei PtWZ beobachteten. Eisen hat nur einen positiven Effekt auf die Isomeriserung von n-Pentan, wenn sowohl Platin vorhanden ist als auch Wasserstoff in den Produktstrom hinzugegeben wird. Sind diese Bedingungen erfüllt, verbessert Eisenpromotierung die Selektivität der PtFeWZ-Proben. Im Fall der Isomerisierung an PtFeWZ(S) kann zusätzlich zur verbesserten Selektivität eine deutlich erhöhte Aktivität beobachtet werden. Da die Nebenprodukte, die zur Erniedrigung der Selektivität führen, wahrscheinlich durch Hydrogenolyse des n-Pentans auf den Platinpartikeln (Reaktionsweg D) entstehen, wird die Erhöhung der Selektivität gegenüber n-Pentan durch den Einfluß der Eisenpromotierung auf die Platin-partikel erklärt. Möglicherweise hat die Eisenpromotierung Einfluß auf die Dispersion des Platins, oder es bilden sich Fe/Pt-Legierungen bzw. -Verbindungen aus. Die erhöhte Aktivität der PtFeWZ(S)-Probe wird auf einen kooperativen Effekt zwischen den Wolframaten und SO4 2- -Spezies zurückgeführt, die nach der Synthese möglicherweise auf der Oberfläche des PtFeWZ(S)-Katalysators vorhanden sind. Ramanspektroskopie an SZ zeigt den typischen tetragonalen Träger sowie zwei verschiedene Sulfat-Spezies. Zeitabhängige in situ Ramanspektroskopie an SZ während der Isomeriserung von n-Pentan zeigt, daß im Laufe der Reaktion eine dieser Spezies verschwindet. Dies wird auf Reduktion zu H2S durch das eingesetzte Alkan zurückgeführt. Gleichzeitig wird der für diese Proben typische Aktivitätsverlauf (Induktionsperiode, rasche Desaktivierung) beobachtet. Im Gegensatz zu Berichten in der Literatur kann keine Bande bei 1600 cm -1 beobachtet werden, die in dieser Arbeit auf prägraphitische Teilchen zurückgeführt wurde. Geht man davon aus, daß die Isomerisierung an SZ ähnlich wie an WZ abläuft, bestätigt dies, daß es sich bei diesen Spezies um ein Nebenprodukt handelt, das nicht direkt mit der Isomerisierungsreaktion zu tun hat.

1 Hydraziniumazide In dieser Arbeit wurde untersucht, ob die Eigenschaften von Hydraziniumazid durch Einführung organischer Substituenten verbessert werden können. Die Hydraziniumazidderivate wurden aus den jeweiligen wasserfreien, substituierten Hydrazinen und einer wasserfreien Lösung von HN3 in Ether dargestellt, die aus der Reaktion von Tetrafluoroborsäureetherat mit Natriumazid gewonnen wurde. Hydraziniumazid ist ein Addukt der schwachen Säure HN3 (pKs = 4.92) mit Hydrazin. Zwischen den Hydrazinium- und Azidionen treten starke Wasserstoffbrückenbindungen auf. Die Stärke der Wasserstoffbrückenbindungen ist entscheidend für die Eigenschaften der jeweiligen Verbindungen. Die Leichtflüchtigkeit sowie die Hygroskopie von Hydraziniumazid und seinen Derivaten lassen sich auf die Stärke und Zahl der Wasserstoffbrückenbindungen zurückführen. Die Einführung organischer Substituenten schwächt die Bindung zwischen Azidionen und Hydraziniumionen bereits dadurch, dass weniger NH Wasserstoffatome, die Wasserstoffbrückenbindungen bilden können, vorhanden sind. Je mehr Substituenten vorhanden sind, desto schwächer ist somit die Bindung zwischen Hydrazin und HN3. Der Schmelzpunkt der Hydraziniumazide ist eine gute Beschreibungsgröße für die Stärke der Wasserstoffbrückenbindungen und damit die Stärke des Hydrazin-HN3 Addukts. Dies kann an den sinkenden Schmelzpunkten der methylierten Verbindungen Methylhydraziniumazid (3), N,N-Dimethylhydraziniumazid (4), N,N´- Dimethylhydraziniumazid (5), und N,N,N´-Trimethylhydraziniumazid (6) überprüft werden. Die organischen Substituenten lieferten während der Explosion keine Energiebeiträge, da sie entweder zum Kohlenwasserstoff oder zum organylsubstituierten Amin reagierten. Daher sinkt der Anteil an aktiver Masse mit zunehmendem Substitutionsgrad. Erstaunlicherweise explodierten aber die flüssigen di-, tri- und tetramethylierten Verbindungen 4-7 bei Erwärmung heftiger als das monomethylierte 3. Dies ist auf die schwache Bindung von HN3 in diesen Verbindungen zurückzuführen. Es wurde zuerst HN3 abgespalten, das dann explodierte. Es wurde versucht, die Bindung zwischen Hydrazinium- und Azidionen durch zusätzliche Wasserstoffbrückenbindungen mit weiteren NH und OH Protonen in 2-Hydroxyethylhydrazin und Ethylendihydrazin zu stärken. Aus der Reaktion dieser Hydrazinderivate mit HN3 wurden keine Feststoffe, sondern zähflüssige Produkte, die nicht die stöchiometrische Menge HN3 enthielten, isoliert.Der Einbau eines Hydrazinstickstoffatoms in Ringsysteme führt zur Erhöhung der Basizität des Stickstoffatoms. Stärkere Hydrazin-HN3 Addukte sollten sich ergeben. Dies wird dadurch belegt, dass der Schmelzpunkt der N,N-dimethylierten Verbindungen N,NDimethylhydraziniumazid (4) und N-Amino-1-azoniacyclohexanazid (18) im Sechsringsystem 18 um 50 °C höher ist. Das Siebenringsystem N-Amino-1- azoniacycloheptanazid (19) zeigt ebenfalls eine Erhöhung des Schmelzpunktes von 18 °C gegenüber 4. Die Erhöhung ist geringer als bei 18, da in Siebenringsystemen die Basizitätserhöhung des Ringstickstoffatoms niedriger ist als in Sechsringsystemen. Das bei N-Amino-1-azonia-4-oxacylcohexanazid (20) im Ringsystem vorhandene Sauerstoffatom zeigt keine Auswirkungen auf den Schmelzpunkt. 20 spaltete jedoch während längerer Lagerung eine NH2-Gruppe ab, Morpholiniumazid (21) wurde erhalten. Auch bei den N,N´-dimethylierten Verbindungen N,N´-Dimethylhydraziniumazid 5, N,N´-Diethylhydraziniumazid (22), Pyrazolidiniumazid (23) und Hexahydropyridaziniumazid (24) wurde eine Erhöhung des Schmelzpunktes durch Einbinden des Hydrazinmoleküls in ein Ringssystem festgestellt. Während die offenkettigen Azide 5 und 22 erst unterhalb Raumtemperatur fest wurden, waren die Ringsysteme 23 und 24 bei Raumtemperatur fest. Diorganylsubstituierte Hydraziniumazide sind nicht praktisch anwendbar, da zu viele organische Substituenten vorhanden sind, die die Explosion hemmen. Während der Explosion entstanden große Mengen an organischen Nebenprodukten, vor allem Organylamine. Ein weiterer Nachteil ist die Oxidationsempfindlichkeit der Alkylhydrazine, die sich in den Azidderivaten wiederfindet. Die Verbindungen N,N,N´,N´-Tetramethylhydraziniumazid-tetramethylhydrazinat (7) und Phenylhydraziniumazid-phenylhydrazinat (14) sind Grenzfälle. Bei der Reaktion mit HN3 bildeten sich Dimere der Hydrazine, an die das Azidion über Wasserstoffbrückenbindungen gebunden ist. Es war nicht möglich, aus einem festen, substituierten Hydrazin das Addukt mit HN3 zu bilden, da bei der Entfernung des Lösungsmittels immer das substituierte Hydrazin ausfiel. Substituierte Hydrazine mit einem permethylierten Stickstoffatom ergaben Hydraziniumazidderivate, die nicht mehr flüchtig, aber sehr hygroskopisch sind. Sie wurden aus der Umsetzung der jeweiligen Hydraziniumiodide mit Silberazid erhalten. N,N,NTrimethylhydraziniumazid (8), N,N,N,N´-Tetramethylhydraziniumazid (9) und Pentamethylhydraziniumazid (10) haben Schmelzpunkte um 180 °C. Die Anzahl der Methylgruppen wirkt sich hier nicht auf den Schmelzpunkt aus. 8-10 explodierten aufgrund der vielen organischen Substituenten nur schwach, bei der Explosion entstanden größere Mengen Trimethylamin. Günstige Auswirkung auf die Eigenschaften von Hydraziniumazid hat die Adduktbildung mit einem weiteren Molekül Hydrazin. Hydraziniumazidhydrazinat (2) ist nicht mehr hygroskopisch, wesentlich weniger flüchtig und die Empfindlichlichkeit gegenüber Schlag, Reibung und Temperaturerhöhung sinkt. Der Schmelzpunkt ist mit 65 °C allerdings noch niedriger als der Schmelzpunkt von Hydraziniumazid mit 75 °C. Ein weiterer Nachteil ist, dass bei der Explosion mehr Ammoniak entsteht als bei Hydraziniumazid. Als Beispiel ist hier die Struktur von Hydraziniumazidhydrazinat (2) abgebildet, die Strukturen vieler anderer Hydraziniumazide finden sich in Kapitel 1. 2 Methylierte Hydraziniumnitrate In Raketentriebwerken werden Methylhydrazin oder N,N-Dimethylhydrazin und N2O4 eingesetzt. Bei der unvollständigen Verbrennung können Ablagerungen der jeweiligen Ammonium- und Hydraziniumnitrate gebildet werden. Die mono- und N,N-dimethylierten Ammonium- und Hydraziniumnitrate wurden hergestellt und ihre Eigenschaften überprüft. Sowohl Methylhydrazinium- (27) als auch N,N-Dimethylhydraziniumnitrat (28) sind sehr hygroskopische Substanzen. Wasser konnte aus den Hydraziniumnitraten nicht im Vakuum entfernt werden. Daher wurden 27 und 28 aus den wasserfreien, methylierten Hydrazinen und wasserfreier Salpetersäure bei –78 °C hergestellt. Die Hydraziniumnitrate zersetzten sich bei leicht erhöhter Temperatur (60 °C) bereits langsam zu den jeweiligen Ammoniumnitraten. Die Strukturen von Methylhydraziniumnitrat (27) und Dimethylhydraziniumnitrat (28) wurden bestimmt, die Struktur von Methylhydraziniumnitrat (27) ist hier als Beispiel angegeben. Die Zersetzung der Ammonium- und Hydraziniumnitrate bei hoher Temperatur erfolgte nicht vollständig. Während die Ammoniumnitrate größere Mengen NO2 ergaben, wurden bei den Hydraziniumnitraten nur Produkte einer weiter fortgeschrittenen Zersetzung, z.B. NO, nachgewiesen. Auch kleine Mengen Methylazid wurden gefunden. Während der durchgeführten Test ist es nicht gelungen, die Nitrate zur Explosion zu bringen. Beim starken Erhitzen der Hydraziniumnitrate 27 und 28 fand nur eine Zersetzung, keine Explosion statt. 3 Reaktionen mit cis-Hyponitrit Die in der Literatur erwähnten Verbindungen mit cis-Hyponitritanionen wurden entweder durch Kupplung von zwei NO Molekülen an einem Metallzentrum oder durch Reaktion von N2O mit Natriumoxid erhalten. In dieser Arbeit ist es nicht gelungen, aus Reaktionen des cis-Hyponitritions neue Verbindungen zu isolieren, es wurde immer die Bildung von N2O beobachtet. Die theoretische Untersuchung der Zersetzung der einfach protonierten Verbindung cis-HN2O2 – ergab eine niedrige Aktivierungsbarriere von 11.9 kcal/mol (MP2/6-31+G(d,p)) für die Bildung von N2O und OH– in der Gasphase. Zusätzlich muss berücksichtigt werden, dass vor allem das OH–-Ion in einem Lösungsmittel gegenüber der Gasphase beträchtlich stabilisiert wird, so dass die Aktivierungsenergie in Lösung noch niedriger liegen dürfte. Dies erklärt die Bildung von N2O, die bei allen durchgeführten Experimenten, selbst bei sehr tiefen Temperaturen beobachtet wurde. Eine Isolierung der cis-hyposalpetrigen Säure kann daher wahrscheinlich nicht aus Lösung erfolgen, da sich die einfach protonierte Verbindung sofort zu N2O und OH– zersetzt. Ein Stickstoffoxid N6O4, das aus der Reaktion von Natrium-cis-hyponitrit mit Tetrafluorhydrazin entstehen kann, hat nur bei der Berechnung auf PM3 und HF Niveau ein Miniumum. Bei stärkerer Berücksichtigung der Elektronenkorrelation auf B3LYP oder MP2 Niveau wurden keine Minima auf der Energiehyperfläche gefunden. 4 Verbindungen mit 5,5´-Azotetrazolat Das 5,5´-Azotetrazolation enthält bereits 5 Mol Stickstoff. Durch Kombination mit Kationen von Stickstoffbasen, vor allen Hydraziniumkationen, können Verbindungen erhalten werden, die pro Formeleinheit viele Mole Gas erzeugen. Der Hauptbestandteil der Explosionsgase ist Stickstoff. Hydraziniumverbindungen bilden zusätzlich Wasserstoff, was für hohe Detonationsgeschwindigkeiten sorgt. Verbindungen, die große Mengen Stickstoff erzeugen, werden für Gasgeneratoren in automatischen Feuerlöschsystemen, Airbags und Rettungswesten gesucht. Ein Vorteil der Salze von 5,5´-Azotetrazolat mit Stickstoffbasen ist, dass sie gegenüber Schlag und Reibung relativ unempfindlich sind, was für eine Anwendung wichtig ist. Das empfindlichste Salz ist das Ammoniumsalz, das im Fallhammertest in der Literatur bei 4.4 kg bei einer Fallhöhe von 50 cm explodierte. [130] 5,5´-Azotetrazol ist im Gegensatz zu HN3 eine starke Säure und zerfiel bei Raumtemperatur innerhalb einer Minute vollständig zu Tetrazolhydrazin. Die freie Säure kann bei –30 °C hergestellt und bei –80 °C mehrere Wochen gelagert werden. Aus Methanol kristallisierte 5,5´-Azotetrazol mit zwei Molekülen Kristallwasser (70). 5,5´-Azotetrazolatsalze sind jedoch stabil. Die Synthese von 5,5´-Azotetrazolatsalzen erfolgte durch Umsetzung von Sulfaten der entsprechenden Kationen mit Barium-5,5´-azotetrazolat. Die Stabilität von 5,5´-Azotetrazolatsalzen mit protonierten Stickstoffbasen ist davon abhängig, wie leicht das Proton von der Stickstoffbase auf das 5,5´-Azotetrazolation übertragen werden kann. Dies kann an den Ammmoniumsalzen Diammonium-5,5´- azotetrazolat (45), Bis-methylammonium-5,5´-azotetrazolat (46), Bis-dimethylammonium- 5,5´-azotetrazolat (47), Bis-trimethylammonium-5,5´-azotetrazolat (48) und den Hydraziniumsalzen Hydrazinium(2+)-5,5´-azotetrazolat (51), Dihydrazinium-5,5´- azotetrazolat (53), Bis-methylhydrazinium-5,5´-azotetrazolat (54), Bis-N,Ndimethylhydrazinium- 5,5´azotetrazolat (55) und Bis-N,N´-dimethylhydrazinium-5,5´- azotetrazolat (56) abgelesen werden. Je mehr Methylgruppen vorhanden waren, desto tiefer waren die Zersetzungstemperatur der Salze. Waren keine NH+ Gruppen in den Kationen vorhanden, z.B. in Bis-tetramethylammonium-5,5´-azotetrazolat (49) und Bis-N,N,Ntrimethylhydrazinium- 5,5´-azotetrazolat (57), so erfolgte die Zersetzung über einen anderen Mechanismus, der wahrscheinlich umgekehrt zur Bildung der Tetrazolringe verläuft und erst bei höheren Temperaturen stattfindet. Die Synthese von 5,5´-Azotetrazolatsalzen mit protonierten Stickstoffbasen kann bei Raumtemperatur nur in Wasser als Lösungsmittel stattfinden. In organischen Lösungsmitteln erfolgte eine Zersetzung des Azotetrazolations. Dihydrazinium-5,5´-azotetrazolat (53) ist eine neue hochenergetische Verbindung, die alle Anforderungen für einen modernen Sprengstoff erfüllt. Die hohe Standardbildungsenthalpie von 264 kcal/mol (ber.), die bei der Detonation freigesetzt wird sowie die bei der Detonation gebildeten großen Mengen Wasserstoff sorgen für ein gute Detonationsgeschwindigkeit von 6330 m/s. Der größte Nachteil von 53 ist die niedrigen Dichte. Bei einer vergleichbaren Dichte würde die Verbindung die Werte der kommerziellen Sprengstoffe RDX und HMX übertreffen. Die bereits bekannten Guanidinium- (66) und Triaminoguanidiniumverbindungen (68), deren Kristallstrukturen in dieser Arbeit bestimmt wurden, haben höhere Dichten und sind thermisch stabiler. Vor allem das Guanidiniumsalz wird wahrscheinlich in den nächsten Jahren in Gasgeneratoren zum Einsatz kommen. Die niedrigen Dichten der Hydraziniumsalze im Vergleich zu den Guanidiuniumsalzen sind geometrisch begründet. Die Guanidiuniumderivate sind flach. Dadurch können sich sowohl die 5,5´-Azotetrazolationen als auch die Kationen platzsparend übereinander anordnen. Hydraziniumionen haben Wasserstoffatome, die nach allen Raumrichtungen ausgerichtet sind. Da diese Wasserstoffatome in Wasserstoffbrückenbindungen einbezogen werden, entstehen Lücken zwischen den 5,5´-Azotetrazolationen in der Kristallpackung. Das Hydraziniumsalz 53 kann zwei Einheiten Wasser oder Hydrazin über Wasserstoffbrücken binden. Sowohl das Ammoniumsalz 45, als auch Hydroxylammonium- 5,5´-azotetrazolat (50) und die methylierten Ammonium- 46-49 und Hydraziniumverbindungen 54-57 können keine zusätzlichen Stickstoffbasen über Wasserstoffbrückenbindungen binden. Die Alkali- und Erdalkalisalze 29-37 von 5,5´-Azotetrazolat binden große Mengen Kristallwasser. Die Wassermoleküle sind sowohl an die Kationen koordiniert als auch über Wasserstoffbrückenbindungen im Kristall gebunden. Daraus ergeben sich verschiedene Bedingungen für die Entfernung des Kristallwassers. Während nur über Wasserstoffbrückenbindungen gebundenes Kristallwasser beim Aufheizen bereits bei Temperaturen um 100 °C entwichen ist, liessen sich die koordierten Wassermoleküle erst bei Temperaturen von 120-150 °C entfernen. Bei der Entfernung der letzten Wassermoleküle wurden im DSC jeweils große Energiemengen festgestellt, die für eine Strukturänderung nach der Entfernung der letzten Wassermoleküle sprechen. Die Temperaturstabilität der Alkali- und Erdalkalimetallsalze sinkt mit zunehmender Größe des Kations. Während die Lithiumverbindung (29) erst bei 335 °C explodierte, explodierte die Bariumverbindung (37) bereits bei 211 °C. Bei der Entfernung von Wasser bei Temperaturen um 100 °C im Ölpumpenvakuum fanden Explosionen statt. Daher kann Wasser praktisch nur durch lange Lagerung der Salze im Exsikkator über P2O5 entfernt werden. Die wasserfreien Alkali- und Erdalkalimetallsalze sind schlag- und reibungsempfindlich, was sie zu potentiellen Primärexplosivstoffen macht Die Kristallstrukturen von Lithium-5,5´-azotetrazolat-hexahydrat (29), Natrium-5,5´- azotetrazolat-pentahydrat (30), Rubidium-5,5´-azotetrazolat-hydrat (32) und Barium-5,5´- azotetrazolat-pentahydrat (37) zeigen eine Koordination von 5,5´-Azotetrazolat– stickstoffatomen an das jeweilige Metallion. In Calcium-5,5´-azotetrazolat-octahydrat (35) und Yttrium-5,5´-azotetrazolat-docosahydrat (39) sind die 5,5´-Azotetrazolatstickstoffatome nicht mehr an die Metallionen koordiniert, die Metallionen sind von einer Hydrathülle umgeben. Auch Magnesium-5,5´-azotetrazolat-octahydrat (34) und die Salze der dreiwertigen Kationen Aluminium 38, Lanthan 40, Cer 41 und Neodym 42 sind im Einklang mit dem HSAB-Prinzip wahrscheinlich nur von einer Hydrathülle umgeben. Das Magnesiumsalz 34 sowie die Salze der dreiwertigen Kationen sind nur solange stabil, wie das Kation von der Hydrathülle umgeben ist. Verlieren die Verbindungen Wasser, z. B. beim Erhitzen, so werden farblose Zersetzungsprodukte erhalten. Bei der Reaktion von [Ce]4+[SO4]2– 2 mit Barium-5,5´-azotetrazolat kommt es sofort zu einer Gasentwicklung, Ce+4 ist in wässriger Lösung zu sauer. Nach Auflösen von Barium-5,5´-azotetrazolat in Hydrazin entfärbte sich die Reaktionslösung innerhalb von zwei Stunden. Farbloses Barium-N,N´-ditetrazolatohydrazintrihydrazin (44) wurde erhalten. 5 Reaktion von Tetrazoldiazoniumchlorid mit Lithiumazid Aus der Reaktion von Benzoldiazoniumchlorid mit Lithiumazid konnte Phenylpentazol isoliert werden. Analoge Reaktionen mit verschiedenen Phenylderivaten ergaben substituierte Phenylpentazole. Die Reaktion von Tetrazoldiazoniumchlorid mit Lithiumazid ergibt Tetrazolazid. Daher wurde auch in dieser Reaktion eine Pentazolzwischenstufe vermutet. Theoretische Berechnungen ergaben, dass die Aktivierungsenergie für den Zerfall verschiedener Tetrazolpentazolisomere in der Gasphase zu Tetrazolazid und Stickstoff mindestens 14.8 kcal/mol beträgt. Daher erschien es möglich, Tetrazolpentazol im Experiment zu beobachten. Bei der 15N-NMR spektroskopischen Verfolgung der Reaktion von Tetrazoldiazoniumchlorid (71) mit Lithium-15Nα-azid wurden zwei Signale bei δ = –29.7 und δ = 7.7 beobachtet, die bei Erwärmung auf –50 °C an Intensität abnahmen und bei –30 °C vollständig verschwunden waren. Gleichzeitig nahm das Signal von Stickstoff an Intensität zu und ein Signal von Nβ markiertem Tetrazolazid erschien. Die bereits bei tiefen Temperaturen wieder verschwindende Zwischenstufe der Reaktion von Tetrazoldiazoniumchlorid mit Lithiumazid entspricht daher sowohl ihrem chemischen Verhalten, als auch in den beobachteten Signalen dem Verhalten, das von Tetrazolpentazol erwartet wird.