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James: Hey, audience and listeners. This is James Kandasamy from Achieve Wealth Through Value Add Real Estate Investing Podcast. Today I have Raj Tekchandani from the Boston area. Raj is a co-sponsor/KPGP in 650 units across Georgia, Florida, Kansas City, and Texas. Hey Raj, welcome to the show Raj: Thanks, James. Thank you for having me James:  Good. I'm happy to have you here because I want to talk about technology. You are a technology guy turned into a multifamily investor, right? Raj:  Absolutely, I can speak technology all day long James: Yeah, absolutely. So I want to make sure I give you an opportunity to explain some things that I missed out. So why don't you tell us about your story? How did you get started and how did you end up being a multifamily investor? Raj:  Sure, I will do that. So hi guys, I've been in technology for most of my career, I did Undergrad Computer Science, then I did an MBA in high-tech so purely technology-based and wanted to become the next big company founder. A lot of my jobs were mostly startups but when I realized that I'm sitting on a lot of options and not going anywhere, I said, I need to diversify and started looking into real estate investing that was not until 2012, but that was just a side gig. I still was fully devoted to my job, which was startups and it was in data analytic space and we're building a platform to connect all the data in the world together and put meaning into data, using something called a Data Lake. A lot of formal companies were using our software, financial services, but there was no real estate company using it. But anyway after I finished my five years with that company, my stocks options fully invested. I was like, okay, what is my next startup? And by this time I had started collecting my grants from the little investments I'd done. I had started investing in 2012 in one Condo in Orlando, Florida, and gradually went on to buy more because the prices were very attractive and I could see the prices going up and I said, let me just get in there, so I got in there, fortunately, had a good property manager that helped us take the worries or headache off our head and the cash flow was beautiful. So in about 2016, I said, okay, they need me to see this look and I bought actually a 15 unit multifamily near my house in Boston and I wanted to do more of that because I'd heard, you know, multifamily the whole economy is upscale. So I said, let's get into multifamily and that experience was interesting, to say the least. I had not too much knowledge about the underwritings and how to really look at expenses and that came in as a very expensive learning lesson for me in terms of multifamily. So from there on, I said, this is too much work, I can't do this. I found a good property manager and he quit and then found another one then he quit and it's like, this is too much. So I said, no passive investing is my way to do it, this whole active thing is not my thing and I'm still working full time on my job. So I started nesting passively with some investors. The first time I looked at a passive deal I was like that's too much, there are too many zeros in here, I can't do this but gradually as I understood, I took learning and took all the courses and reading blogs and podcasts and I got comfortable with investing passively and then a couple of passive investments and I was like, this is great, I have my nine condos, I have my fifteen hundred, which has now started giving me cash flow and now has passive investments. Interestingly, it was almost matching up to my startup salary. And I was like the options are great, but what if the options don't mature or do much? So I took a bet and I quit after five years of my job to do real estate full time and that's how I dig more into multifamily. But interestingly at that point, I had this idea of another startup, which didn't go too much far because I wanted to take these learning from data analytics into real estate and now that I'm doing multifamily and doing all this, I'm not seeing too many systems out there. It's still very, laborious jobs, the property management company is a lot of work on paper and even the underwriting was very painful. So I was like, what if there's an automated software machine learning data, whatever we have learned in technology to build that. So I met up with the person at MIT, Jennifer, she had done a Ph.D. in Real Estate Technologies, like Artificial Intelligence Machine Learning for Real Estate. I'm like wow this is a person that I James: Talk to right? Raj: Yeah, so I sat down with her and she went through her thesis with me. In fact, she was nice enough to explain her thesis; there are too many companies out there that are doing what I'm trying to do.  James: So what was the thesis about? Raj: The thesis was the use of machine learning and artificial intelligence in real estate  James: But is it real estate underwriting, or is it real estate analysis or--  Raj: --Real estate analysis  James: Is it for investment or is it-- Raj:  So she actually worked for MITs and Darwin program buying the advisory real estate James: Oh, okay. So they're basically looking at investing Raj: So they're looking at investing so mostly commercial real estate, eventually, from her thesis, she came into that, MITs fund. She was working there at that time. But in her research, she had looked at a lot of technology companies, right? From doing everything from sensitivity analysis to underwriting to figuring out where the locations thesis are, property management companies that are looking to do automation based on the [inaudible06:24] so a lot of machine learning in there. Actually, one of the companies that struck me at that time was in [inaudible06:33], which is what I had been thinking about, sort of how to automate underwriting and how to take all the data that's been sitting in, all these Yardi Matrix and all the places that been collecting data. How can we leverage that to say, okay, well, this is a property that I'm looking at in multifamily, this is the address and boom, we'll go and run into algorithms and come back and say red light, green light, yellow light based on all these factors and in [inaudible 07:02] was doing that, some of that, I talked to the CEO there and start using the platform. So I had some suggestions for them into building other plans and other features on the platform but at that point I said, you know what, I'm more of a user now, and they're not technologists, I want to use these technologies that are out there, I can talk about what features they need, like lease analysis. In one of the deals we went inside in the back and you're looking at 150 leases, one by one, what is matching up. There's no use of doing that, those leases should be fed into a system and outcomes, and these are the mismatches  James: The lease [inaudible 07:38] should be automated Raj: This is a tenant profile and based on this tenant profile and this property and this neighborhood, this tenant profile will be surviving through any downturn, that’s what you need to know on tenant profile I'm sure somebody will build it in there; I think [inaudible 07:55] was already thinking about doing that. Anyway, from that I said, okay, I'm going to stay as a user, I started using these technologies but then I got stuck more into the whole underwriting piece and managing the properties, finding the properties, I was like talking to brokers, now I'm talking to this and that's how I met a couple of good people through coaching programs that I said, okay, it's time to take the next step, move from passive to active, and see how the big things are done. I wanted to be closer to the action. So that's how I got into active investments James: Got it. I mean, that's a lot of things there. So I want to go a bit more in detail on that, but that's good. I mean, so right now you're a full-time real estate investor, right? Raj: Full time real estate investor. Yes. I mean always thinking of the next technology ideas James: Well, that's the problem with all these tech guys coming into real estate? I also think the same, let's automate this, and let’s create a system on this Raj:  Yeah. But I mean, I keep in touch, keep a pulse on that. So I don't know if you know about this organization called CRE tech- Commercial Real Estate Tech, middle of New York and they are looking at all these things, all kinds of who's doing what, which company is being funded. So I keep in touch with them. I'm a member of them, but just looking at ideas, someday somebody has come with a great idea that we are still a little behind than other industries in terms of use of technology James: Oh yeah. Real estate is so manual. I mean, there's not many people investing in technology and it's a bit tricky too because a lot of people component Raj: And I was told one day that, (AI) Artificial Intelligence, the biggest tool, billions of dollars are being traded in real estate based on excel spreadsheets. That is the technology of choice of all these big reads and fund managers and they're just doing Excel spreadsheets James:  Yeah. I don't know why the real estate is just so hard to automate in terms of location because even like, if you look at a street, one side of the street can be completely different valuation from the other side. And how do you tell that to the software? You can't tell them that people have different preferences going in Raj: Well, if you feel that, you can tell that by how many murders were on the left side of the street and how many murders on the right side [inaudible 10:16] I mean, I just think the crime rate, our school districts and there are so many factors you can pinpoint it. Now there's so much data being collected on all of this, right? You just have to leverage the data and every time a property gets sold, a property gets bought that data is entered into a system, right? The analysis entered into the system, even for an upgrade, all the data has been entered so you should be able to tell that if I put granite flooring in this, or I put up vinyl flooring in this, or whatever, this is the gorgeous fettuccine down the road, right? Because that's [inaudible 10:50] James:  I think that's what [inaudible 10:52] does, right? Sometimes they do a lot of underwriting, they try to predict what is the rent going to be, but I'm not sure how big they are. I know there were some people really excited about it, but some people really didn't like it. I saw it once; the tool looks good for a tacky, right? If you're a second, it looks like everything's done for you. But I don't know for me, I don't feel comfortable yet. Raj: I think there's nothing. So all that said, James, there is no equal end to be having boots on the ground. So this is what I've learned James: Well, for real estate, you have to go to the property, you have to do the cost yourself Raj: Exactly. So you'll do all, that saves you a lot of time, right, because you can do the cost, the real analysis is done when you're there and you're looking at the property because we walked away from a deal that had everything looked good on paper and technology tools and everything, because this one building down the slope, had some structural issues that we didn't know, I mean, no technology tool will tell you that turning on some like pillars that are like fake  James: Correct. There's no way to know. I mean, as I say, I love all these tools, but I don't know for me, I don't want to pay so much money for this tool unless it giving me an automated thing. Raj: That's where the progression has to happen. The more they have to get better and they have to get cheaper for that option. Otherwise, excel spreadsheets help people doing their report James: One day will, right? I mean, if you look at it right now, we need a buyer agent, we need a seller agent to do a house transaction and the reason for that is so much people touch, right? I mean, a seller needs to know that he's getting the best value for his product. Only people can see the house and decide whether it's a good house or not, right? It's a bit hard for computer AI to really say that this is a good house for this person, right? Maybe one day it will. Raj: It will. They'll cut short the time or for your needs maybe James: Correct. And I know a lot of startups were trying to do all this right there. I mean, every tech guy who was introduced into real estate in the behind them is [inaudible 12:53], oh, I can do a startup, even syndication people are trying to automate right? They're trying to rank the sponsors, they tried to give stars to sponsors and everybody is trying to do all this but as I said, it's very hard to give a star ranking to sponsor there are so many other things that are involved. I mean, one day probably, yes. But we are not there yet with the technology, the information we have so how do you feel? I mean, you and I are almost the same, right? I mean, we're always in the technology space and suddenly become real estate. Do you think you've wasted all that lifetime in tech space? Raj: No, not wasted. It's a game, it's life as it plays out, now where I am my biggest strength is my value for my time. I mean, I control my time in what I'm doing, when I was working tech job, I mean, you had management meetings on Friday afternoon. I was like an owl, now if you go look at my calendar, you'll never find a Friday afternoon open because I dropped it James: Okay. That's good. Yeah. I mean sometimes people who have studied so much in certain fields, I don't know. I do see some doctors moving from being a doctor to becoming a real estate investor. I mean, at the end of the day it's all about time, right. Time and how much [inaudible 14:13] Raj: I mean it’s time and it's what you enjoy. I mean, I also realized that a lot of what I do in real estate is marketing and I love marketing James: Nobody cares in the tech company Raj: Yeah. So when I'm even in my tech job, my last job was in marketing. So I was basically a demand generation for this data analytics back on rebuilding. So basically evangelizing technology for people that don't understand it, it's sort of marketing. So writing blogs, writing white papers, writing all this stuff, simplifying things for them. That's what I had become in my technology job also because nobody wants to hear the mumble-jumble of data lakes and medication and all that stuff. It's like, bring it down. What does it do for me? And now he's the same thing, syndication and all what does it do for me? I mean, so marketing is basically attracting the right people and getting rid of people that you don't want in your system. So that's why even in capital raise or even the deals that we do it's very important to figure out who your customers are which in our case is investors and it took me a little while, my first four deals, I was like talking to everybody and anybody like, okay, this is what we have and I was like, no, that's not me finally figured out the people who are attracted to my deals, especially are tech executives, like me that have collected a decent paycheck, they have a decent amount of wealth, they want to diversify, they're paying a lot of taxes and they are paying [inaudible 15:50] that. So they want to learn about how real estate can help them with taxes, how real estate can help them diversify, a lot of them have invested completely in the stock market, which we have done that in the past and I've lost a lot of money in stock and that's why I never want to go back to stocks anymore and I'm trying to teach the same thing through my formal education. James: Yeah. Surprisingly not many people know about real estate. I know probably all the listeners here, they will. I mean, you are already learning and listening to podcasts about real estate, you already know, but it's very surprising to know how many people don't know about real estate and don't know what passive investing. I mean, people know that you can go buy a house and give it for rental, but nobody knows that I can put the money with a sponsor who will do the work every time Raj: They know real estate investing, they don't know realistic passive investing James: Correct Raj: Yeah, passive investors have become my passion James: Yeah. I mean, that's why I wrote my book too because not to introduce real estate to passive investors, I want them to be a bit smarter. I mean, sometimes when they got introduced to real estate, they think, wow, my God this is the best thing they just follow one way of thinking, right? So Raj: You just stole my line that's what I say, because, at smart capital, we make you smarter James: Okay, good. Because I mean, first, you get introduced to passive investing, second is how you become smarter, right? So let's talk about that. I mean, you said you have done some really cool stuff for passive investors and incorporating some technologies and all that Raj: Absolutely. I mean, again, nothing was planned. It just happened over time, my first deal, when I presented to some of my friends, they said, Raj take my $50,000. I'm not going to take your $50,000. You need to sit down with me, understand what it is James: Well, that's the problem with me. I don't like just taking money. I want you to understand the deal. Cause I believe it's a good deal Raj: I actually know the four friends that I had, I bought them tandoori chicken. I said, come sit with me and I'll explain to you what it means. So I bought wine and food. I said, look at this, I'm going to tell you what it is if you understand it and if you still want to invest, that's great. I want you to understand it because I can take the money and invest it, I mean, that's not a problem, that's the easiest thing for me, but I really want you to get smarter in my sense, you know, that's why smart capital and so that small group grew into a little bigger group and I created a meet up in the Boston area on just apartment investing and teaching what it is and growly slowly And I kept it small for a number of my first year I did it in my office in a conference room. They were like 35 chairs and who can come but we kept it very educational. That was the thing. We'll take a topic, we'll discuss the topic or make sure that anybody in the room is understanding and if there is somebody else experienced in the room, they're absolutely allowed to speak up and do so, kept it very educational, very different meet ups. A lot of people said, okay, Raj's meet up is educational so we're going to go there, and then I didn't have enough space so I took a bigger space now the membership in that whole meet up has grown to 600 plus people but we now get about 60, 70, 200 people monthly and I've kept it monthly and still, we talk about educational purposes There's no come have beer, learn about network and go back. That's not it. So to answer your point in doing so right, I've internally built some systems to make sure this is a smoother process for me. So in terms of the thought leadership platform, I have my meet up, I started doing blogs consistently. Obviously I'm active on Face book, LinkedIn, and really wherever else I can post my blogs. I also to become a member of the Forbes relisted council so I can do some technology related articles there and talk about what I'm thinking. So yeah, I've done all these things and now I have in a way that I've created this CRM and systems and attracting investors who, whatever platforms that they can get onto podcasts like this and talk more about what I've done in my past and just share my experiences, that's basically it. James: So how do you decide on doing a deal? Let's say someone brings you a deal, right? How do you decide this is a good deal, I really like it. What are the things that you look for? Raj: So the first thing I like, ideal deals only very few people. I mean, as partners, right? I mean, I'm not into numbers of deals and I don't count the number of doors. I don't do that. I like to enjoy myself, I mean, to [inaudible 20:30] my life, you're going to be just chasing money and [inaudible 20:33] James: You want to be peaceful too, right. Reinvesting the right sponsor because you can make an investment any-- Raj: --People that I enjoy, I mean, the deals will have good and bad times. One of our deals is we haven't done distribution, but I will say that I'll invest that deal again. I believe so much in the team that even because I'm so close to the deal and my investor is saying, Hey Raj, we haven't distributed work. I said it'll be fine. It's just because I trust the people that I work with and I could do another deal with them. So I’m very selective about who I work with, these are people from my coaching backgrounds, I've heard them say I hear them strength and they have to be complemented with my strength. So if I'm good at finding markets and I say, what, I'm going to invest in Orlando or Kansas City or whatever markets that I have in my head because I've done some research on data on that and obviously then underwriting should make sense but my number one criteria is the people that I work with and do I add value to them and they add value to me. So I will claim I'm not a good asset manager, I've never intended to be so I will always look for a very strong asset management on the team James: Got it. So you basically look for the sponsorship and how the team complements with you as well Raj: The dealership and the numbers should make sense, but that's true for everybody. You will not invest or be participating in the deal, that doesn't make sense James: Yeah. What do you look for in a very strong sponsorship team? That you really like? I mean, what personality, integrity or--? Raj: --Integrity, number one is integrity, right? I mean, the track record is okay, but I think track record, I've seen these guys done. I mean, it was not done like 15, 20 syndications, some of them have, but some of them are still early in the stage, they have done maybe two syndications before this one, but I've seen them through the coaching classes and going through with them to on due diligence trips. So I always go and make sure that I'm on part of, once we go sign up, form a structure, I'm going to get involved with all the due diligence and all everything. So I'd sit down with them and see what their work ethic is, how passionate they are about it, and will they stay committed with me? James: Got it. Very interesting. What about, on other things, in terms of the underwriting or in terms of market analysis, have you done any; have you incorporated any technology things into analyzing that? Raj: Yeah. I mean, I do my own technology things. I mean, I haven't written software for that, but I do look at a lot of data James: What kind of data do you look for? Raj: So, I mean, a standard feature, like population growth, job growth, and median income. We will also look at STEM jobs, right? I mean, I look at if it's a technology oriented job, are there or not because I mean, in these times the properties that are doing well, are people technology, company, people working from home, right? So all of that is important as well [inaudible 23:34] James: Got it. Very interesting. So is there any proud moment throughout this real estate career that you think oh, I did that and I feel really proud about it and you can never forget about it until the end? Raj: Well, the proud moment was I'm into partner with you on my first deal. I mean, that was a very proud moment. I told you right when the first time I looked at syndication when a friend of mine presented to me, he was on the GP side, I was on the limited partner side. He says "Raj I got the deal."  And I said, "What is this? This is like 300 units. I mean, there are too many zeros. There was no freaking way." So now when I did my first deal with that number of zeros, I mean, it was not 300, it was 152 units that deal was a very proud moment for me having gone through understanding what it means and then the other proud moment was to convince some of my investors to partner alongside with me right now that I learned this and I'm sort of sharing my education. I don't even call it capital raising. I'm giving them an opportunity to participate with us. I'm doing them a favor, sometimes I feel that way and that's one way to look at it and I'm saying no, every deal of mine for my side has the same investor. The first investor is always the same, that's me. So I'm going to invest in these deals, I've done the research; I've been to the property. Now I'm presenting it to you this deal, why I like it, and you're welcome to join along, so the proud moment was to getting that achievement, right? The first one and the second one becomes easy. And then the first one was the problem James: Got it. Awesome. Can you tell our audience how to get hold of you? Raj: Absolutely. I mean, I have a website, I'm very active on Facebook, but my website is smartcapitalmgmt.com. My email is raj@smartcapitalmgmt.com. Easy to use to get to me or LinkedIn. Facebook also is there James: Awesome. Thanks so much for coming. It's so refreshing to see how someone from the tech industry moved directly into a multifamily investor. I think a lot of people do, right? But there are still tons of people who don't, right? So it's just the thought process and sometimes the desire to technologize everything, sometimes it's hard, right? Real estate-- Raj: -- Why do you want to do that? I mean, you want to enjoy what you're doing, right? If building a technology company is your passion then real estate will not be the thing, but leveraging technology to get smarter is another issue James: Got it. Awesome. Well, thanks for coming. I'm sure everybody got tons of value Raj: Thank you, James. Thanks for having me James: All right. Good

If you're leaving your marketing success to luck, you will find it's run out. Obviously I'm having a little fun with the play on words this week, but the reality is that successful marketing requires planning. A 5-step plan in fact (I'll get to that in a minute). Regardless if you have a local small business or are a global entrepreneur, planned marketing reaps greater rewards, costs you less money and saves you a whole lot of headaches. Advertising costs are expensive, online and offline. Which is why it's even more critical that you plan and manage your spending. Throwing money into advertising and praying that it will lead to new clients is literally "Living on a Prayer". There is a better way and we are going to dig in deep this week in Episode 80 of the podcast. If you're ready to set up a marketing system that will work, then this is the episode for you, check it out here. For now, let's dive into that 5-step action plan. #1 - Define your goal, set your objective. I'm sure you have heard the quote from Antoine De Saint-Exupery "A goal without a plan is just a wish." The same can be said for your marketing. Without a goal, it's impossible to measure success or know which direction to sail your ship. Goals and objectives are the same things in this case. What is it you are trying to accomplish with this marketing campaign? Keep in mind there can be campaigns within campaigns as well, but let's not get ahead of ourselves. Objectives can be things like: Increasing your authority Building your email list by ___ number of subscribers Warming up your email list Watching a video Reading a blog post and more #2 - Who is your audience, ideal client? In case you missed it, I do have a freebie you can grab to help you out on this one.  You can snag it here. In Episode 80 this week, I dive even deeper into some ideal client specifics. I spell out some examples but also cover a new component of audiences, where they are in your funnel.  Leads can be cold, warm or hot. Given that information, you will need to set an objective and plan of action for each sector of your ideal clients. For more details tune in here. I also cover some specifics about local vs. global marketing and how to target your specific business and client type. #3 - What do your people need? You all know by now how important it is to be creating content. In this episode, I give you some ideas on how to cater your content to your audience so that they are eating it up. Eliminating the guesswork and the time and energy spent creating something no one wants. Lastly, I caution you to show up where your people are and don't just start a podcast because everyone else is. If your audience isn't listening to podcasts, Houston, we have a problem. Create what they need and they will come. Put it where they already are and you'll get their attention. #4 - Create a followup system. I have to confess, I went a little deep here when talking about follow up. The reality is, you can create a follow-up system that is as intricate or simple as you can manage. If you have a team of sales reps, then yeah, your follow-up system will have more moving parts.  More people, more steps.  Capiche?  Regardless, the fortune is in the follow-up. So you MUST have a system to continue the relationship with your new leads. Whether that is an email sequence, phone calls, personalized videos using a tool like Loom, messenger messaging or a combination of all of these, that's entirely up to you. But, put something in place and keep in mind these three factors for your audience temperatures: Cold--->>> educate and add value ---->>> segment by interest Warm --->>> present offer --->>> convert to purchase or opt-in Hot --->>> retarget --->>> send to next offer  #5 - Analyze your tactics to measure success. This is the most important step of your strategy because if you aren't measuring success, you will be spinning your wheels. Examining which opt-ins are working, where they are leading as well as emails, phone calls, sales, etc. Don't leave one piece of your funnel unmeasured. It will keep you from continuing with pieces that aren't working or giving you a heads up that something is amok and needs to be fixed. It will save you a ton of time, frustration and money. Now it's your turn.  If you want all the details for these five steps, head over here and listen to the entire episode. Which of these steps were you missing? Head on over to the Facebook Group and share what's working, not working and what you still need to do.

This is our third quiz-episode which also marks the end of season 3. It was a pretty long and tough season 3 since we lost a host. We added new segments to the show (fashion anyone?), got our email address (brokenchairscores@justemail.net) and launched a T-shirt competition (basically, you write a comment and we don't know you? you get a shirt; this only works once though, like for the very first genuine comment which still hasn't happened yet).Obviously I'm not going to name the scores that we used since you guys probably want to quiz along. The rules have been updated but you're gonna hear all about that during the show. Enjoy!

Happy New Year and welcome to Week 8 of the Wise Not Withered Character Showcase! I'm thrilled to present a very special pair of characters: Athiei and Akuol, an aunt and niece potion-brewing witch duo. The illustrator for these characters was Joy Ajuong, whose family originates from South Sudan; our witches have strong influences from the Dinka people who are indigenous there.Our American writer, Annamarie Mickey, did some fabulously thorough research and ran everything by Joy to ensure the most accurate and respectful representation of the Dinka people. Annamarie will introduce herself and talk more about her creative process later on in this episode.The witches' names came directly from Joy's Dinka heritage: Athiei is a unisex name meaning "blessing", and Akuol is the feminine form of the name Kuol, which is a type of bitter fruit that can be used for medicine. Joy told us that Kuol is a fairly common name in her own family.The idea I had for the witches was, like most of the other characters, extremely bare-boned. It was important to me that lots of different relationships were represented in the project, and I knew that I wanted the witches to be an aunt and niece pair. Originally I wanted the story to focus on the older witch, who is seventy-two, and conflict would arise when her forty-five-year-old niece messes up a potion recipe and accidentally releases and dark, mysterious power. Once Annamarie started writing the story, it became clear that both witches were equally important.I thought it was an interesting concept simply with their ages and exploring the relationship between two grown women who are some kind of combination of mother/daughter/sister/friend. The older witch, seventy-two-year-old Athiei has twenty-seven more years of life and work experience, but at this point her forty-five-year-old niece Akuol is pretty established and skilled as well.During the conversation over WhatsApp with Joy and Annamarie, I had an idea that I believed to be silly at the time. I had said that it could be funny if they're experimenting with potions, and Athiei temporarily changes their appearances to that of younger women. They both look in the mirror and say "Nah!"Annamarie chimed in, saying that she thought about the usual cranky but affectionate older woman and the younger person who has to deal with them. But then she thought it would be more interesting if the niece was more uptight while the older aunt is more experienced and is in the stage of life where she is somewhat embracing a second childhood. So Athiei might be known for trying things that Akuol balks at.I adored Annamarie's idea of the "second childhood", and it reminded me of hearing about post-menopausal women who in some ways revert to a more childlike state, in terms of positive energy and outlook on the world, similar to how they were before their first period. I didn't want to outright say that in the story, but the underlying idea would be there: the niece Akuol is pre-menopausal and coming to terms with "The Change" whereas the aunt Athiei has already accepted it since it happened at least a couple decades prior for her.Joy added her own thoughts, saying how it's nice to show that as we get older it can be difficult to accept changes in our bodies and lives, and having the older witch be more calm and cheerful in itself shows that this isn't the end of the world. You can always find joy if you wish to and her goofiness imparts that lesson on the younger witch. Joy continued: "As for this dark force, I think it would be important to tie it in with their personal hang ups. We could have it connected to menopause with the younger witch. Perhaps literally or perhaps metaphorically."Then Annamarie riffed on that: "Perhaps something related to fear, almost like when a teenager goes through puberty, prompted by uncontrollable and significant change. She feels that change deep down and doesn't want to admit it scares her. That could be partly why she clings so much to more strict magics and seems to have lost some of her creativity and imagination."Joy added on that again, talking about how Akuol feels a sense of control in her magic abilities that she doesn't feel in other parts of her life. She desperately wants to be young again, not aware of the darkness brewing within herself in holding on in vain to that belief: "basically a metaphor for how attempting to reclaim your youth rather than accept the grace of aging can have negative consequences both for your own wellbeing and others."The Potion-Brewing Witches' story is the only one in the Wise Not Withered project that has age as a key factor and conflict in the plot. It was important to me that although each character had to be at least forty years old, age would not be a defining characteristic for these stories, in hopes of normalizing the idea of middle-aged and elderly women as protagonists. However since the older witch has accepted her age, it felt right to include one character in the project who at the beginning of the story has not accepted it yet.My original idea was that the niece would somehow be at fault for the main conflict, and it also made sense that Akuol's mishap wouldn't be caused by mere carelessness. At that point she would be forty-five and more experienced and capable than to mess up like a novice. So having the darkness and conflict arise from her insecurity about aging—with a role model showing another way of aging—made perfect sense.The idea I had of a potion making them look younger also came with differences in how each witch would respond to seeing her younger self. It would make sense that Akuol, the more uptight one, would be shocked and yearn to look that way again. Athiei on the other hand would gaze upon their younger selves and relish in the memories of when Akuol first came to live with her and learn magic, feeling nostalgia and appreciation rather than disappointment and longing. Showing that difference in perception was indispensable.Potion-Witches Game IdeasThe original idea for Wise Not Withered was going to be entirely through a lens of gaming, but as ideas came in from the writers and illustrators, I decided to not put the whole focus on just games, but rather media of all types. The witches though, with all their different potions, would be great characters for an open-world RPG, with ingredient-collecting and crafting mechanics.Another one of Joy's idea: "Recipes could either be stumbled upon by player experimentation or by reading books scattered across the town or perhaps speaking to certain NPCs. If we wished to fight against the grave evil we could introduce combat early on say to hunt certain creatures for ingredients. This could teach the player that they can use the potions to augment their stats mid-battle. I think if you start with this relaxed Animal Crossing like tone for say the first third of the game, it would get people invested and accustomed to the characters' way of life so it would become shocking when the dark force appears due to their own hand. Sort of a tone shift, though the mechanics can hint at this future event."Potions... Potions...Annamarie did an amazing job coming up with potion ideas. Instead of simply describing them, I'm including excerpts from the story to show off her writing as well:"Feather-light potions enabled their feet to hover inches above the ground as they stepped out from their cottage, just high enough to walk across the flooded grasslands with ease - a welcome convenience in the rainy season.""The rain was still coming down steadily, and a deep fog had set in as the late afternoon wore on. Athiei opened a clear-eyes bottle, and the women drew lines on either side of their eyes so they would not lose their way. ... Akuol pressed a finger to her temple where she had drawn a clear-eyes line. By focusing her energy, she could not only see through the fog, but enhance her vision further.""Akuol dug into her pack. She carried a vial of mica and ore. She retrieved one of the villager’s gifts next - a cured hide of an ancient lechwe, finally at rest after years of wandering when the merciful earth called its life away. She plucked several hairs from the hide and mixed it with the mica. Then she held it aloft to the rain - to the cycle of water, from the ground seeping into the river and condensing into the air and returning to its mother, ever-changing even in its constantness."And now here's Annamarie, going a lot deeper into her creative background, creative process, influences, main takeaways from the story, and her experience being part of the Wise Not Withered project:"My name is Annamarie Mickey, and I am the writer for 'Always Constant, Ever-Changing', or the Potion Witches prompt, as it was first pitched to me back when Juliana first reached out to me. I am from the Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania area—lived here my whole life, went to school not super far from here.As for how long I've been writing, I've been creating stories ever since I could hold Barbie dolls, basically. As far as more polished writing, I would say as early as middle school. Probably a lot of people around my age, my generation can relate to growing up on websites like Neopets. Neopets to me was highly formative, and it sounds so silly, but I created vast characters and stories, and I wrote so much in middle school. I got to explore so many different kinds of characters and explore ideas from books I was reading, and just whatever would pop into my head. So that was a highly formative time for me.In terms of the kind of writing I like doing—and I think there were hints of this when I was younger, and it's definitely only gotten more polished and come more into the forefront as I've gotten older... I really like works that have an existential bend to them. Things that aren't always 100% straightforward, or sometimes maybe have bizarre sentence structure here and there, or really play with words, sometimes even creating new words or putting words together in weird ways that you don't see a lot, to really make you think about what you're reading, or pull you into the scenario of what you're reading.I think you see a lot of things like that more in short stories, because in short stories you have such a smaller amount of time to make an impact on your reader. When I was in college, studying literature and writing, I really fell in love with short stories. Flannery O'Connor was one of my favorite authors that I read in college. She's one that really just comes out there and smacks you with the bizarre, and the weird, and the uncomfortable.Also a lot of African short stories, Asian short stories... I took a few non-Western classes. They really delve into that kind of magic-realism bend. Sometimes you're not 100% sure what's going on, or things are a little bit weird... Every word counts. So when an author does something it needs to be very specific, and they're doing that for a reason. You can't just mess around with no purpose behind it.That's what I really love about short stories. And now in my older writing I really embrace that way of writing, and I hope that comes through in Always Constant, Ever-Changing. Cause this was a witchy, magical story. I really got to play with some strange language here and there, weird things of describing scenes. For me, that is so much fun to explore, and I hope that comes across to the reader and pulls them into the scenario we set up with Athiei and Akuol.With Athiei and Akuol, I think I couldn't focus on just one, because they live in such close proximity to each other, and Akuol has basically grown up with Athiei. Their lives and their duties and their job, everything is just so totally intertwined. They're both older women, but they're still both women in different parts of their life. I wanted to explore Athiei's wisdom, being the older one who had already gone through what Akuol is going through. That sense of when you're in your middle age, sort of reaching older age.Obviously I'm young, so I can't empathize with this, but I have plenty of older women in my life. My mom and my aunts. I can sympathize with seeing them go through these changes, and juxtaposing that with the older older women I see in my life, who have come to an understanding, a freedom of where they are in their lives.I think it's important for younger people to read a story like this, see characters like this, think about people like this. I'm younger, but obviously I'm not always going to be young. And younger people think about aging too. How's life going to be in ten, twenty years? They look to the older women in their lives and see how they handle aging. And that imprints on the younger generations on what to expect as they age. So I wanted to write a story that was focusing on that there is beauty in aging. You don't have to be scared of it.I wanted it to be encouraging for anyone at any stage of life. Whether you're younger and you think about, how will I be when I'm older? And possibly if you're older too, I hope that I was able to reach out and touch some of those fears. I think it's especially poignant in women. Our society places so much value on youth, and so much is sold to us on staying young, being youthful, and being beautiful. But there is so much to be gained as you get older, and really I think that's what Athiei tries to reach out to Akuol. Even if she doesn't come out and say it; it's the way she lives, the way she presents herself, the way she celebrates life and what she does.She goes into each day unafraid, excited. It's almost a youthful kind of energy, despite her age. The more I thought about that, the more that I really carved that into Athiei, the more excited I was to write it. I found the voice of the story, found those two opposing forces between Athiei and Akuol, and how they work together. And for me that's the heart of the story, it's them together. It's not just the one, it's both of them. Both of them navigating life with each other, what they give to each other, what they learn from each other. And for me I would say that's really the heart of the story.As for the more like nitty-gritty of the story, forming its setting being in more South Sudan. That really came from the artist, from Joy, absolutely. Right at the beginning, when all three of us had met—me, Joy, and Juliana—we talked about ourselves a lot, where we came from, what our influences were, what we were interested in. We really wanted to bring a lot of ourselves to the story.My bent is obviously always going to be a little more Western, because that's how I was raised, and that's the culture I'm surrounded in. I've always been drawn to... Like when I hear "magic", my first thought is going to be the more English, Western magic: Lord of the Rings, the medieval, the Renaissance, that kind of thing. A lot of literature I've read is that, and I do love that.But Joy, her family is actually from South Sudan, so when she started sharing that with us, I was like, we have such a great opportunity here, where I can bring my love of magic and just the idea of witches, which is always fun for me to play with. Magical realism, all the powers and works in the world that work around us—it always fascinates me. So any story that has magic or anything like that is super up my alley. So to combine my experience with writing that sort of setting, and reading those sorts of stories, and placing that deeply in Joy's culture. The opportunity to have someone so close to that. Obviously I did quite a bit of research. I also asked Joy questions. Pretty much anything I wrote I ran by her to make sure that it was accurate or at least...I mean it is a magic story. It is fiction. So it's not 100% accurate to real life. But making sure any liberties we took, or things that we did a little bit differently, sat well with the whole picture we were trying to put together. So it was so great to have that opportunity to explore a culture and a part of the world that you just don't see very often. So that was just absolutely fantastic. I love doing research and immersing myself in a different culture, in a different people. And the opportunity to bring that to the forefront, and having Joy consulting very closely on it, making sure the ideas I brought to it were respectful and proper while still hitting an emotional impact for all of us, was just absolutely amazing.I joined the project because a friend of mine who is the artist on one of the other stories, had been recruited by Juliana before I had. And we had been working on a project together. So she reached out to me and said hey I joined this project, it sounds really interesting. It's about older women in a variety of stories, it's about expanding the world of fiction to include the older women. That's up both of our alleys to do something like that.So I said yeah that sounds awesome. So I reached out to Juliana, and she immediately pulled me on board. When she sent me the list of prompts, Potion Witches was immediately up there for me, because I love magic and I love magic settings. I love what you can explore and what you can do.Magic brings such an easy and immediate way to explore the metaphysical. Expressing people's psyches and their thoughts and their pain. Their journeys and what they're going through, through the strange around them, the magic, and bizarre around them. How does that manifest in the world around them? And when you introduce magic into a setting, you can really bring that to a forefront, you can play with it in ways that for me is so much fun! So Potion Witches was probably my first pick, if not my second pick. So when we got our prompts, and I saw that I was assigned the Potion Witches, I was so excited!Working on the project was so much fun. I mean Juliana was just so gung-ho the entire time, especially at the beginning when we were firing ideas back and forth, trying to really hammer down what idea we wanted to do. There was a lot to get to the final product! (laughs) We threw around a lot of ideas before we finally settled on the final, what it eventually became in the end. And she was always just texting and messaging, which I don't mind! Because it means that the person in charge...One thing I've learned is that when you have a project, especially something like this, where there's a lot of moving pieces, and a lot of people working together, you need a strong leader. You need someone who is 200% passionate. Because if you have someone who is even like 90% passionate about it, especially when we're mostly volunteering for this, just to do it because it's interesting and sounds fun, you really need someone who is going to hold the reigns, and just be totally on-board with discussing any idea, and going down any avenue, and really encouraging all of us, and keeping on us to work on it. Like I said I don't mind, because when there's someone that passionate behind a project, that keeps you passionate.So even occasionally schedules get busy and everything, but I was still able to finish the story. Juliana was there the entire time, making sure that if I had any questions, I could ask, making sure I was still good, reading any revisions that I did, leaving me really great feedback that pulled the story together, really tightened the story as well. She was such a good second pair of eyes to have on the story. So yeah, working for the project was just fantastic and I'm so proud of the final product, and I'm really excited for people to read it.I hope that when people read it, they will ultimately come with a feeling of... Going into 2020, starting a new year, starting a new decade, don't be afraid. That theme came out organically as I was writing. Usually when I go into writing, I don't always have a strict idea of what the theme is going to be. What is the big message of the story?And for this one, the one that really came out was go forward, unafraid. I mean... Go forward despite your fear. We're all gonna be afraid! Instead of being antagonistic toward that fear, cause that's what Akuol does. She lets that fear fester in her, and that fear goes outward, it affects the world around her, the people around her. That's what happens when you let fear drive you. It affects not only you—it affects everyone around you.Akuol really learns that she needs to accept the change around her, the change in her life, the change within herself, both physically and mentally. When you accept that, then you can move forward with bravery in spite of it, and the people around you can help support you as you move forward. You're not alone in this journey of life.So writing this story for me, was just filled with hope, so much joy. There's so much joy in all the details of the story. And I really hope that that comes across, and I hope that when people read it, they feel that hope, and try to take that back into their lives. I mean, that might be a lot to ask for just a short story. (laughs) But for me, whenever I read it, that's what comes across to me. The hope at the end. The hope that I can take that into my life outside of the story. We're not perfect, but we try.I'm just so honored and blessed to have written a story that reading it now, it means that much to me. And I hope that readers also see that and hopefully take some of that with them after they're done reading. So everyone who reads Always Constant, Ever-Changing, I hope that you enjoy it first of all! And I hope that you find some of those deeper meanings, or maybe other things in the story that speak to you on some level. That when you come out of it, you feel that hope and joy. And if you do that, then I've done my job. I loved writing it, and I hope you love reading it! Thank you so much."—Thanks for listening to the Wise Not Withered Podcast! More character showcases coming out Sundays until mid-2020!

Learn More About The Content Discussed...No Boss Talk:https://nobosstalk.comTop Summit: https://www.thetopsummit.comInstagram: https://instagram.comThe Camp Elevate Facebook Group:hereBeth’s Instagram:@bethholdengravesBeth’s website:https://www.bethholdengraves.comProfit HER Way Course:https://www.bethholdengraves.com/profitKeynotes discussed:Why did I choose Network Marketing? Honestly, because of time freedom and if you know me, I'm a big jolly fellow who likes to help people. (01:55)It takes you getting out of your comfort zone and actually reaching out to people, and getting to know people, and asking people questions and telling people about yourself.(04:11)I did not get to be an almost multiple seven figure earner by not having conversations with people.(06:04)If you're listening and you're going into 2020 you're looking at your goals from 2019 and I want you to first of all, listeners, have some gratitude for what you have done. (10:14)It helps them really stay energized and the comradery and it fills people's cups.(14:22)When Did It Air...December 23, 2019Episode Transcript:Beth:Welcome to ‘You’re Not the Boss of Me’. If you are determined to break glass ceilings and build it your way, this show is for you. I’m your host Beth Graves and I am obsessed with helping you to not just dream it, but make the plan, connect the dots and create what you crave. Are you ready? Let’s get started.All right, so I am so excited to have Santa Claus on the podcast today. I'm actually going to tell you who Santa is at the end, so stay with me and you'll be able to see the recording of this. Santa is at the North Pole in a full red suit, I'm not kidding you. And when you guys figure out who Santa is, actually I just got a text from Blair, I sent a screenshot of this...who is Santa? So you have to stage it, and some of you will recognize his voice. He's spoken on many stages, huge stages in the network marketing world. He is a multiple six figure earner, close to seven figures, and I'll tell you his story when we close this out. But for now, hello Santa! Oh cool. Oh my gosh. I mean you guys, what is the date that this is airing on?Let me look Santa. Okay. It is December 23rd. Oh my gosh you guys...now behind me, you will have to go over to YouTube, and I'm going to have this all over Facebook. But behind me, Santa's has his house. He has beautiful trees and wreaths. Oh my goodness. This is like my favorite podcast. So it's December 23rd and Santa...Most of the people that listen to the podcast are network marketers, or they build online businesses. I know that this might come as a surprise, that you, Santa, are involved in the network marketing industry. So why did you choose network marketing alongside your other gig?SantaI am involved in network marketing and I absolutely love network marketing. I chose network marketing because, you know, I have a little bit of free time on my off season and I figured why not help people and make an income. So I put my elves to work and we started working in network marketing. Why did I choose it? Because honestly, because of time freedom and if you know me, I'm a big jolly fellow who likes to help people. I just love everybody and I want to help people. And this industry is one of the only industries in the world that you can help people better themselves, whether it be a product or a product and an opportunity.Beth:I totally agree. So Santa's, I know that you're also live up in the North pole. So obviously building a business that just requires Wi-Fi and connecting all over social media is huge for you. And one of the the topics of today's episode is how to continue to always grow your list. And since Santa has lists and you know Santa, I gotta say you're a little, you're a little judgmental, but I'm just going to put that out there. I know you've told me I was naughty. I'm like, how are you to decide? But we're not even going to get onto that topic now it's open for discussion. I want to make sure I get a new ring light this year because mine is like all over the place and I've got other things that I really want, a Peloton. Do you think you could work that out for me?SantaYes, I think I can. You've been a very nice girl this year, so I definitely can work something out for you.Beth:Awesome. Okay, so Santa, I notice when, I'll tell you Santa's Hass, his real name over on Facebook. There's always new momentum and energy in your organization and that comes from having new conversations. And one of the biggest things, the biggest concerns that people will say to me as they get started, they get excited, they talk to their sister and their brother, they get to their warm market. They might even come out of the box and hit two ranks and then they're like, I don't have anybody else to talk to. There's so many different ways to grow the list. What are some of your best list building strategies of people that you know to have conversations with?SantaWell, for me, I'm open, right? So I'm stuck up here in the North pole. I have wifi, I have my social media platforms. Let's start with social media, right? Social media is a free platform that you can utilize to help build relationships and grow your network. It takes you getting out of your comfort zone and actually reaching out to people and getting to know people and asking people questions and telling people about yourself. In doing so, you build relationships and those relationships turn into people who want to either join you in your opportunity or take your product, depending on what it is, you know, they'll find the groove with you. But first things first is you have to be open to trying to connect with people and talk to people. And me being so far away from everybody up here in the North pole, it's easier for me to do it on social media.But from time to time when I fly over to the grocery store, I also put my head up, look around and smile at people, introduce myself, talk to people, be polite. I can't tell people this enough. For me personally, I have a product that I absolutely love and believe it and I love sharing my experience because it's helped me. In the past four years, it's helped me so much be a better person, feel better. It's given me opportunities that I could only dream of. But I go to the grocery store for a gallon of milk and Mrs. Clause is like, where'd you go? You've been gone for two hours. Did you milk the cow? Like no, I was talking to people. You never know who you meet.Beth:Yeah. This is a little bit of a trend. And I feel like Santa, when people start to, and you're hearing from someone, you guys I know that you're like, yeah, right Santa. Well this Santa has built an incredible business by having conversations all the time. Connection, serving, and then I see these new ways like, and I'm always up on what's innovative and using Facebook stories to grow your lead list and all of those things. But I will for the rest of my life say it. I did not get to be an almost multiple seven figure earner by not having conversations with people that were right in front of my face. And people will say, don't bother your friends and family. Never have to send them a message again. Like, what do you have to say about people that have the belief that you don't have something that your friends and family need? Like that just blows my mind.SantaYou know? I totally agree with you because here's the thing. If you're not going to help your friends and family first feel amazing, or whatever the product is that you're you have or the service. If you're not going to help your friends and family, why do it? Like for me, that's the first thing that I always go to is helping my friends and or family feel amazing. They're the first people you're going to talk to. That's what you would call your warm market because they know you, they love you, they trust you, and if you genuinely care and are really trying to benefit them and help them, it will come back to you and you will be benefited by it. It's a double win. You're helping them feel better or providing them a service that's going to make their life easier. And in return, you're building your relationship with them, getting closer to them and then not only that, you know you potentially are earning that you can turn around and help your family even more.Beth:Well, and one of the things that I watching you grow your business is that you have an all of the network marketers that I've ever seen, you have a team that has an, you guys, it's like Santa and his elves. It's like you have some of the best community and culture then I've ever seen. Like it is not just one person building a business and chatting online. Can you talk about how your team has built this community and this culture? I mean it's, I'm so envious, so envious in fact that I just like decided that I'm a part of it. I just said, Hey, they're having a pool party. Beth's on the way. Tell me how that grew?SantaYou know, we have a very different dynamic than most teams and we're really blessed to have it. We're a big extended family is what we are and we treat each other as such. From upline to downline. It's not about rank. It's not about anything. It's about really serving and helping people like a family does. I want you guys to think about your brothers or sisters. You will do anything for them within moderation. Of course, you're not going to bury a body, God forbid, but you know what I'm saying?Beth:Well, you might, you might, but you know that's another podcast.SantaBut no, seriously though, you would do anything for them. In creating a culture like that and getting people to really grow together and support each other and cheer each other on and just share moments with those people is very important to us. We're very big on events. Events is a huge thing for us. We plan a lot of events. We do a lot of events. I think the most events in one month that we did was 10 or 12, I don't remember the count. We have a team dinner, one of our leaders is hosting a team dinner today. I mean these are things that you know are important to us and we push. Well, I don't want to say push. We want people to do these events and be a good tight community. And to do that we lead by that way. We have an open door policy at our house.Beth:And here's the thing that people listening, because Santa, this is like, I love that our podcast is shifting. We're talking about growing a list, but how do people, this is when I watch, when I watch your team culture and I actually got introduced to you because we're sidelines. Your real identity is from Michigan and some of my team members, when you guys first came on, it was like, what the heck? Who are these people? They're growing so fast, welcomed with open arms, people from my team. And I kept hearing about this, this guy named Hass and I was like, I gotta know Hass, he's like Santa Claus. So this is what I want you to take away. If you're listening and you're going into 2020 you're looking at your goals from 2019 and I want you to first of all, listeners, have some gratitude for what you have done.Don't listen to Haas and go, Oh my gosh, I suck. I have not had an event. I want you to think about what have you accomplished, who have you helped? And then here's the thing is, you might want to shift how you're doing things. We've gone to this whole idea and maybe events aren't for you. And you might be saying, well, I built this business so I didn't have to leave home. What if I told you that you would make, Haas, just off the top of your head from, and we're going to start calling you Haas. Even though he is Santa, he's in the full Santa suit. Your income has dramatically increased from here. He's taking it off, he's taken it off. Now take it off Santa, take it off. There we go. I mean, look at that. Now he's like, okay, so you're watching this and we're going to pull this live.So some people will say, I don't have time to do those events, but when you look at retention of team members, and I like to say that if you have somebody that comes in and just as a thousand dollars of volume, but they know that they can show up at your pool party, they can show up at an event, they can show up at a retreat, they're welcomed with open arms. You guys have such incredible retention and is it worth it to be out of your house six nights a month, for probably quadrupling your income, that you had when you were working at Ford?SantaYeah, I mean, here's the thing. It's crazy because people, you know, people are like, well, you only hang out with top leaders. No, it's not the case. I don't care where you're at. In our organization, I don't care what rank you're at, how much volume you bring in. If you're a part of this, then you're a part of our family. If you want to show up, you show up. If you don't, there's no pressure. It's not forceful. Everything that happens, we try to make happen naturally.Beth:So if you are talking to somebody that's listening and they're just starting or they might have, let's say $10,000 of volume in a small team, what would be your advice for them to start building a culture in a community like you have?SantaHave events, go to events even if you're not ready to have them. Go to an event near you, right? Watch, listen, learn. Then also bring guests to these events or and or start conversations with people anywhere, whether it's in public or at the grocery store or online. Go on and do it. I promise you this, I can guarantee you this because I'm speaking from experience. The minute you step outside of that comfort zone is the minute you start to notice differences in how you are living, things that are happening to you, successes, doors, opening, relationships built. It's crazy to me. I remember our first event, I didn't want to do it and everybody's like, no, you got to do an event. My uplines are like, no, you have to do it. Jessica said just do an event. It's an hour from them. They're like, we'll come. I'm like, okay, cool.It was the worst snowstorm ever. One person showed up to our event, right? We call her the power of one. She's a rock star. She showed up to this event and sat in front of us like a deer in headlights. Jessica was talking, cause I didn't know much about the business. I was still very new. So a whole presentation went on and she listened and just took it in and took it in over the next few months. This woman absolutely crushed it and here's the funny thing is if I didn't do that one of that, that whole team wouldn't have started. You know what I'm saying? It was crazy because after the event we were like, Oh my God, it was an Epic fail. It was a disaster. We're never doing this again. But I ate those words very quickly. Now we do more events than you can imagine and it's been one of the best things we do, but not only for bringing people on and helping people, it's helped reinvigorate our teams, keeps them engaged.It helps them really stay energized and the comradery and it fills people's cups. I mean, it's just crazy how a couple hours out of a day, a one night a week can change your momentum if you were to start planning these events. Even if you don't do it every week, do it every other week. That will help you grow your momentum. It'll help people fill their cups. He'll give people energy or make them feel invigorated. It will re energize their business, especially if they're on a lull or a standstill, these are all ways to do it. But I'm telling you, just get out and talk to people.Beth:And that's what you've done is, you've talked to people locally and I love, I feel like it's like the revival of why people loved the network marketing industry. In the beginning, it was building community and you guys don't just do it like, it's not a boring flip chart meeting. You guys bring your families. I mean it's like, it's a family affair, right?SantaYes. It's my, our son. We have a three year old son. This was one of the reasons why network marketing has been such a blessing because of the time freedom and the ability to spend the time with our son. But we take our son to locals all the time. Don't ever make your why your excuse. So if your why is your children, don't make them their excuse for you not showing up, or make them the excuse that you can't be at an event or be on a call. They are the reason why you're doing what you're doing most of the time. And if that's the case, bring them, you're putting them in an environment that's safe. You're putting them in an environment with people that are loving, caring, and knowledgeable and are open to helping and they're learning those traits from you and making them better humans. I mean, for me, my son is a loving, caring kid that says, please thank you and you're welcome because he's heard it from all the people that we've surrounded him with and majority of them is our team in our family.Beth:And how about to listening to people that have the entrepreneurial mindset over and over again and being exposed to that?SantaYou know, we, we had the privilege of meeting somebody, you know, Pitbull. The amazing entrepreneur producer, songwriter, singer. You know that his mom used to listen to Tony Robbins in the car every single day for the majority of his childhood as she took him to school? He credits that to make him is what made him who he is because he found out who Tony Robbins is. He was in that environment. He was listening to that motivational, entrepreneurial spirit. He absorbed it all. And I'll tell you right now, kids are sponges and if you put them in the right environment, the odds of them being successful is going to be through the roof.Beth:And they see the vision boards, right? They see, Oh my friends are coming over for vision board party, right? Well Santa has a different background right now, but they see the affirmations, they see the morning routines and they see us working. My son said to me and he's 15, so we've got, you know you get the opportunity. He said, how can I have, I love that you have the freedom to choose when you want to work. He said you work hard, but I want to create a career or a business around what I love, and we started talking about the different options. And one of the things, he's got this idea, he wants to make these wakeboarding sweatshirts, but I talked about overhead building a website, manufacturing delivery and he's like, Oh no wonder network marketing was such a good fit, because you didn't have to build your own website.Like we just got to go, and you and I both are very much extroverted, like the ultimate camp counselors here, and just have conversations and take away all of the stuff that I call, it feels like your drunk uncle is driving. If you and I had to ship our product, build our website, and we get to do the thing of connecting, and that's what I'm hearing you say is whether you guys, you might be saying, okay, my team doesn't live locally. We'll start to build a team locally. You're missing out, and I'm going to say if you take one thing away from this podcast, from Haas and from me is, yes, you're going to have people all over the country. You're going to get on Zooms, you're going to meet up. We're going to share a place where you can meet both of us and where you can meet with your team by going to an event in February. But here's the thing, your local community is waiting for you, your next door neighbor, the person in line at Publix, is financially stressed, needs your product, needs your community. And if you're not Hass, and you're not looking up from your phone and you're not connecting, I guarantee you, you've helped someone put groceries in their car and had a conversation and invited them to an event, right?SantaYou know it, 100%! I've actually, I carry product in me. So if somebody is interested, I don't squander an opportunity. I'm out there pounding pavement, talking to anybody and everybody, and I give them an opportunity to try our product and really benefit from it.Beth:And here's the thing, I'm gonna say this and this is bold. And because I love all the strategies that we're out there teaching, but the most successful network marketers, when you look at Haas, when you look at what I've done, when you look at the seven figure earners, they are having conversations. Our job is to network. Our job is to connect. Our job is to change lives. So if you're only changing lives, typing on your computer behind Facebook messenger, hiding in a Facebook group, you're going to have a very, maybe a nice business. But when you ask, I've asked people this, your biggest builder in your company, did you know that person before? No. No. How did you meet? How did you meet your biggest person, your biggest earner?SantaIn-person, through somebody else. Because I opened a conversation, because I connected with that person and then met somebody through them, and being personable. Having conversations with people opens up the doors for you to meet people. I'm going to tell you right now, just because one person isn't the person you're looking for, I promise you that they could be a doorway for you to meet that one rock star that's going to blow your business out of the water. So every relationship is valuable, in my opinion, going out and meeting people and connecting with people in person. Look, we live in a society of computers and social media. The biggest successes and some of the most successful people in this business have, one of the reasons they're successful is because they've gone out, and physically in front of them, face to face, belly to belly, have talked to people, hug people, you know, shaking hands, whatever it may be out in public. I promise you if you do that, things are going to change. You're going to have a completely different dynamic. Not only that, you're appreciated more.Beth:Yes, yeah, of course. And so let's, in 2020 I'm going to encourage you, if you are looking to double, triple, 10 times your business, you are going to listen to Santa, to Haas, who says get yourself out the door. You're not going to feel like a encyclopedia salesman. You are going to make connections and go to that paddleboarding event. Go to the sledding Hill, have conversations, and like I mean carry your toolkit on you and you will drastically see your business change. The other piece that I wanted to talk about before we close out today is going to live training, in person events. And that's how Haas and I first met, at a leadership conference. I felt like we were already friends. But both Haas and I are going to be at an incredible event in Naples, Florida, called the Top Summit. Do you want to talk a little bit about that event? How about those people that are listening to this podcast? I didn't even run this by you. If you buy tickets for this event and you are going and you message us on Instagram, you can connect with Haas. I'll give you all his information over on Facebook. We will actually meet with you, and sit in a circle, and have a conversation and Hass will do a little training on how to have conversations in public. Only if you buy your tickets today, right? Haas, a free training with you at the Top Summit?SantaI will sit down and we'll have lunch, whatever it takes. Look before I get into the Top Summit, because it's an amazing event and I can talk about it all day. I promise because I went to the first one, but be genuine. Be you, care, you know? Be honest, not only with the person you're speaking to, be honest with yourself. These are things that you must, in my opinion, be truly honest with everything, and about everything, that you're trying to do when you meet somebody that's going to take you along the way. Now onto the Top Summit. I can't wait. I live in Michigan. You live in Florida, so you're very lucky. You know, You're already down there.Beth:I feel like I get to hang out with all my good friends. Like I have the best vacation ever. The Naples beach club. So here's the thing, when I saw that that's where it was, and then being asked to speak, what was like, what that was on my vision board. That's a dream come true. And my husband and I, before we had kids, his mom had a membership to the Naples beach club and we used to go over, and they have the best cheeseburgers, and I have so many great memories. We would just sit on the beach, read books. It was like the honeymoon phase actually. He's like, you're not going alone. So I was like, Oh, are you coming to the Top Summit? I'll meet you at the top honey. So tell us about the event. I know you were there last year. I didn't get to go to Mackinac Island last year, but I was watching the online streaming, having so FOMO, I'll never miss another top summit.Santa:I'll tell you right now, top seven, it was...oh look, I've been to a lot of events, it was very different in the dynamic of you were right there in front of everybody. The speakers were mingling with guests and people in the audience. I mean, not lost speaking outside of speaking, you were in the same hotel, so you were basically hanging out with these amazing top earners, trainers, leaders and teachers in around network marketing. But not only network marketing, traditional business as well. It was an awe inspiring. I was so motivated that I started doing...because I didn't speak at the Top Summit, not yet. Hopefully soon. It's on my vision board too. But, I will be there and I will help anybody. If you buy your ticket today, I will help anybody that comes up to me, and me and Beth will have kind of like...Beth:Let's have our own training. Yeah, we'll have a little mastermind for you. And if you go to the Top Summit website, which is https://thetopsummit.com, you'll see all the speakers. We've interviewed many, we've interviewed Ray Higdon, Rob Sperry, we have Frazier Bricks coming. Danelle Delgado. Who else is on that list? Like Cherry Tree, Courtney Epps for finance, Kimberly Olson. I mean we have so many and what someone said to me, it was Sarah Cole who had come to the first one, and she actually had just started with a new company when she came. Yeah, and left Top Summit and her business just exploded, and she said there was just something about the intimacy, like having Frazier walk up to you, having conversations, being able to ask these questions and then the connections. Some of my very best friends are with other companies, that I've met at masterminds or sidelines, and we just talk about things like this.Like I was able to save you Haas. We stopped doing some in person events. Tell me what's happening. Tell me how they're working. Tell me what you did to get them going. Again, those are the conversations that if you're going to build this like a real business, not just a hobby that you need to have, and you need to be open and there and invest in going. I was a teacher, I had to go to years and years of school, years and years of ongoing development, staff development, and we just come into network marketing and we're like, Hey, let's do it. Let's just do it. That doesn't work.Santa:No, it doesn't work and I'll tell you right now, it's an investment in yourself. You're learning amazing qualities, amazing techniques, things to save from some of the top earners and leaders in the industry and trainers. My wife and I, we invest a lot of money and time in growing ourselves in self-development. I think it's one of the most important things. If you do want to become an amazingly successful network marketer, one of the first things you need to do is invest in and the events like the Top Summit are really going to be events that are going to help you become the best and really get to the top. I mean, Top Summit's motto is 'I'll see you at the top', and I promise you if you invest in yourself, purchase tickets to this and now mind you, I have no affiliation with the Top Summit.I just absolutely love events like it, and it's the next big event that's coming up. I highly, highly recommend it. My wife and I will be there for sure. I know you'll be there. I'm super excited to see you in person. It's been way too long. But these are so critical and so important in investing in yourself. And if you take anything away from this podcast, other than you know, some of the tips that I offered or talked about from my experiences, I really recommend you take time to self develop and go to events like the Top Summit in Naples, Florida. Plus, look, I'm from Michigan. I woke up and it was nine degrees today.Beth:So I'm in Florida right now, complaining that it was like 75 and raining outside of my window today. So yes, we went from how to make a list. We went from going out and building in person and that transitioned us. Obviously I'm excited about Top Summit because I'm there, I'm speaking, and then I knew Haas was there and then suddenly it hit me. Hey, I want to get you guys there so that you can have conversations with them. Multiple six figure earner, top leaders like Haas who we'll take the time to sit with you and say, okay, I'm building online, but I want to bring that local community in as well. What are your suggestions? And even the genuine conversations that you have with people. That's the key. So I'm so excited Santa that you joined us today and I like cracked up when he showed up in full Santa's suit with like the the North pole and the backgrounds. If you're listening and you can't see this, you can go over, it'll be on YouTube, it'll be on social media.Santa:You took some pictures, right?Beth:I have pictures. I just put you up in the Instagram stories. Yeah, I've got it all.Santa:This is what makes this fun. Guys. You can do this from home wearing whatever you want. You know, today I chose a Santa suit because I wanted to play along and really make this fun for you guys. I appreciate you for having me. I appreciate all you listeners guys. Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to this podcast. I hope I have helped and added value. I am a servant soul. So if I do see you at the Top Summit, which I'm looking forward to, please don't hesitate to come up and just give me a hug and tell me you heard the podcast and you know Beth.Beth:Are you thinking, I want to maybe give a sneak peek? I heard a rumor there might be a podcast for you in 2020.Santa:Yes, my face turned extremely red right now, as red as my suit. My beautiful, amazing wife and I are in the midst of doing some recordings. We're going to launch our podcast in 2020. We're super excited about it. We just want to add some value. Talk about being a theme. Parents talk about being network marketers, talk about life in general and we hope you subscribe. I will give you a title, a name and I'll get with Beth on this and we'll do it. I'll hopefully be able to have her on one of our podcasts next year.Beth:Yeah, and I love your platform of showing how parents are raising a family in the network marketing world. I can't wait for that content. And also I like even the tip you gave today about listening in the car too, to Tony Robbins. My poor kid has heard, Think and Grow Rich so many times. But that's what you're going to get from the podcast, is how to parent, how to live the network marketing lifestyle, live the life of freedom with two awesome parents, Sydney and Haas. And so we're going to look forward to that podcast. We're going to wrap this up because I promised 30 minutes for all of you, Hass, thank you so much, and I'll see you at the top summit.Santa:Thank you. Thank you for having me.Beth:Thank you guys for listening. Yes, and I will see you at the top. I appreciate you.Thanks so much for hanging out with me today and ‘You’re Not the Boss of Me’. I’m hoping that you’ve found one thing that you will do today that will allow you to move forward to that big, audacious goal. And I have a favor to ask of you, and that is leaving me a five-star review over in iTunes. Every single week I read your reviews. I love hearing what you have to say, and it allows me to bring you more, to get more people to interview that are doing the thing, breaking the glass ceilings, creating what they crave, and helping you with your game plan. So leave me a five-star review, and when you do, I enter you to win the, ‘You’re Not the Boss of Me’ swag, so make sure you leave it and we’ll reach out to you if you’re the winner. Thanks so much for hanging with me today and we’ll chat with you soon.

New Riff is a name that has become synonymous with bourbon lovers. You may have recalled our conversation with Jay Erisman, Vice President, back on Episode 072, but this time we get to speak with Owner, Ken Lewis, who drives a bunch of the decision making behind the company. It feels like an episode of How I Built This as we get to hear Ken’s story. From owning and hustling liquor stores to eventually selling all that to start a distillery, hiring some great people, and having a few strokes of good luck to put him in the position where he is today. Then we also get to hear about his thoughts on stickers and some future plans he has in store for New Riff as well. Show Partners: The University of Louisville now has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at uofl.me/pursuespirits. In 2013, Joe Beatrice launched Barrell Craft Spirits without a distillery or defied conventional wisdom. To this day, his team sources and blends exceptional barrels from established producers and bottles at cask strength. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com. Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Distillery 291 is an award winning, small batch whiskey distillery located in Colorado Springs, Colorado. Learn more at Distillery291.com. Show Notes: Jim Beam’s Historic Kentucky Home on Airbnb: https://www.travelandleisure.com/hotels-resorts/vacation-rentals/jim-beam-bourbon-historic-kentucky-home-airbnb This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about the top 5 states for bourbon besides Kentucky. What is your title? Tell us about your entrepreneurial spirit. How did you get into the alcohol business? How did you end up in Northern Kentucky? Do you have any regrets getting rid of your stores? How did you decide to sell Party Source and start a distillery? How did you get interested in bourbon? When was your first taste of bourbon? How did you find the team to get the business off the ground? How did you chose the mash bills? Tell us about the O.K.I. days. Do you still do contract distilling? So why did you release the bourbon at 4 years? How is such a young product so good? How did you get such a great location? What are your future plans for the bourbon? Tells us about the balboa rye. What do you think of the single barrel stickers? 0:00 Everybody Are you interested in looking at the distilling process and pairing that with key business knowledge such as finance, marketing and operations, then you should check out the online distilled spirits business certificate from the University of Louisville. It's an online program. It can be completed in as little as 15 weeks. It's taught by both of you have all business faculty and corporate fellows. So you're getting real experience from real experts at the most renowned distilleries, companies and startups in the distilling industry. all that's required is a bachelor's degree, go to U of l.me. Slash pursue spirits. 0:34 I thought, you know, this could be almost like semi retirement because once you start distilling, I mean, you just kind of sit around and watch barrels age, right? That's what I assumed would happen. You know, I'd wander in, you know, at noon or something and 0:47 get myself a glass. Hey, you 0:48 know, how hard can it be? You know, you're just gonna watch these barrels. Get old 1:04 What's going on everybody? It is Episode 223 of bourbon pursuit. I'm Kenny, one of your host, and it's time for the bourbon news so let's get to it. Woodford Reserve is releasing their fall 2019 Masters collection is a chocolate malted rye bourbon, this limited edition and one time release is offering a different flavoring technique where they toast the ride grain just long enough that it begins to taste like chocolate. This bourbon will have a suggested retail price of 129 99. It has hints of guests that dark chocolate as well as spice coming in and at 90.4 proof. The completed mash bill will be 70% corn 15% of the chocolate malted rye in 15% of distillers malt. Baker's bourbon is getting a facelift and a rebranding as well as a new limited edition offering. This one sort of flew under the radar for a lot of people. It was first picked up almost a year ago by ski Through the TTP just kind of trolling through the website, but now people are starting to find it on the shelves. The Baker's bottles with the black wax that we once knew is going away but there's going to be an upgraded packaging and a slightly higher price tag coming in as well. It is now changing from a small batch 107 proof to a single barrel but still at 107 proof like keeping a seven year age statement. There's also going to be a limited edition 13 year addition of bakers that will have an adorning a metallic inspired label as well as a metal neck charm. We've seen pictures of them already out there so keep your eyes peeled when you're going to the liquor stores. Travel and Leisure magazine has reported that starting on Monday, October 21 you will be able to rent Jim beam's historic home on Airbnb being Suntory will release a limited number of one night stays available for booking through the end of 2019 and each day is priced at just a mere $23 and this marks the same exact price as a bottle of Jim Beam black bourbon. The only catch is that you have to be 21 years or older to stay inside the home. But inside this store home, you're going to have three bedrooms as well as two and a half bathrooms and it overlooks the beautiful ever bought lake. And it comes stocked with a full bar of Jim Beam Bourbons. You can read more about it with the link in our show notes. New riff is a name that's become synonymous with bourbon lovers. And you may recall our conversation with JS man who's the Vice President and back on episode 72. But this time we get to speak with Ken Lewis who drives a bunch of the decision making behind the company. It almost feels like an episode of how I built this as we get to hear Ken's story of owning and hustling liquor stores to eventually selling out a lot of that and to start a distillery hiring some great people. And as most of these stories go, it's just a few strokes and good luck to put them in the position where he is today. Then we wrap it up by getting Be Here some of the future plans he has in store for new riff as well. All right, now let's get to it. Here's Joe from barrel bourbon. And then you've got Fred Minnick with above the char. 4:11 Hey everyone, Joe here again. In 2013. I launched barrell craft spirits without a distillery and defied conventional wisdom. To this day, my team and I sourcing blend exceptional barrels from established producers and bottle strength. Find out more at barrell bourbon com. 4:26 I'm Fred minnick, and this is above the char. This week's idea comes from Patreon supporter bill now, Bill asked give me an overview of the production and other states who is making their own juice. When did they start? Is Kentucky bourbon better? pick five states and highlight the top distiller in each one? Well, I think it makes most sense to take a look at the states that are bordering Kentucky. The states that are bordering Kentucky have the ability to actually pluck talent from the distilling capital of the United States. Isn't that that is Kentucky. There's no question about that. You also have access to the still makers and the and the training and, you know, places that are close to Kentucky can, you know quickly drive down here and learn from the likes of Vendome or independent stave, etc, etc, etc. to the access to talent that puts Indiana right up there. And of course Indiana has the MVP ingredients distillery that has, you know, goes back to the 1800s. It's in Lawrenceburg, Indiana, former seniors plant and I dare say you know, their bourbon rivals Kentucky's on a regular basis. Indiana is also home to you know, upstarts like Cardinal spirits that are very exciting. So Indiana is definitely on that top five list for me, Tennessee. Obviously it's known for jack daniels but we can't under look like some of the other great whiskey coming out there. Whether you like the style or not George decal is putting a lot of bourbon out onto the market, either through you know source purveyors or under their own label. And it's getting a lot of attention winning a lot of awards. You also have Charlie Nelson's Greenbrier distillery uncle nearest is coming on Coursera is in Tennessee so Tennessee is a state that is a no brainer to put on this top five. Now when you get outside of the states that really border Kentucky and are really growing on, you know, distilling wise, Texas stands out to me in a big, big way. Texas is a state that really they support anything from Texas. Texans are very proud of their state. And so if there's a Texas whiskey, it's selling out on those local stores, whether it's good or not, it's got that brand of Texas on it and people want that. That said I think about Connie's kind of stands out as the best from a from a quality perspective, garrison brothers does really well in blind tastings too. So Texas is one to keep your eye on. The one problem with Texas is they sometimes struggle with you know, water resources. So here's the hope and they get a lot of good rain. They can apply that to making good whiskey. I think Colorado is another one of those states. That's fascinating. Colorado really didn't come on until, you know, until the last decade. You've got Breckenridge there but a distillery that's really fascinating to me is to 91 to 90 was ran by this guy named Michael Myers. No affiliation with, you know, the Halloween guy, but he's a former fashion photographer. And he went from having a whiskey on the market that was just kind of so so to really improving it. So he's one of the most improved distillers that I've tasted in my career. And so he's done a nice nice job of building that brand in in Colorado and he finishes in Aspen stage and I tell you what, it's a fascinating flavor. So I think to 91 is an exciting story. I'm from from point A to point B. So I'm excited to see where they where they go next. Now rounding out this list, I'm going to have to say I'm going to pluck into the historical database of my brain in some ways, and say that New York is an extremely, extremely important state for the growth and rise of craft distilling period, when Tuttle town hit the scene in the early 2000s with Hudson baby bourbon, nobody really understood bourbon. It was not a time it's not like today or we had all these forums and people are talking about it or podcasts and everything. This was a time when people still thought bourbon had to be made in Kentucky. So what Hudson baby bourbon did for the conversation of bourbon just in general, is it allowed people to talk about well wait, bourbon doesn't have to be made in Kentucky, it can be made in New York can be made in Colorado can be made anywhere in the United States. And so that Hudson baby bourbon and New York open a lot of doors for people. So that's my list bill, Tennessee, Indiana, Texas, Colorado, New York. And if you guys have have an idea for above the char hit me up on Patreon that's at bourbon pursuit on Patreon or on Instagram or Twitter at Fred Minnick. That's at Frederick. Until next week. Cheers. 9:14 Welcome back to the episode of bourbon pursuit, the official podcast of bourbon. Kenny riding solo today coming to Northern Kentucky in the Covington area with a brand owner that, you know, this is this is one of the brands that have really started to garner a lot of national attention. They were once known for Okay, I, we had a few other people on the podcast. I think it was like two years ago now. And I'm now coming back because this this brand is starting to blow up so much. And it's amazing that the the national attention has been getting at just a four year product. And we're going to talk about that a lot more in depth because today on the show, we have the owner Ken Lewis. So Ken, welcome to the show. Thank you very 9:58 much can I appreciate it? So what do you go by You wouldn't just go by owner the entrepreneur the, you know when the head man in charge 10:04 Yeah, I'll check writer that's my main function it seems like founder, you know owner Yeah. 10:11 So you've been you're you're kind of a serial entrepreneur serial owner. So this isn't your first venture into not only just the the liquor business, but you've done something. I mean, let's talk about before sure party source, like was there was there a time before then where you're doing sort of entrepreneurial things? Absolutely. 10:29 Well, I started in, in the alcohol business and and I sort of hate to date myself, but it's a fact in 1975, so I was 25 years old. So been around the business my entire career. I fell into it at that time. But I found that I really enjoyed entrepreneurship and the alcohol industry in general, and I just kept growing with it because that's kind of what I like to do is grow a brand or grow a business and taking some side steps, but they've always been an alcoholic beverages. 10:59 So What was that that first venture into the alcohol? Well, 11:02 I the story real quickly because it's a cute story but a true story is I was actually an English teacher in high school for two years out of graduate school. And my wife wanted to go to medical school and we didn't have the money and but that was okay too. And I was not living. I'm a native Lily Valium, but I wasn't living and loyal at the time I was in, in the Detroit area in the suburbs. So my father and brought his brother to loyal and had been successful at what was the predecessors of discount department stores, you know, Walmart before there was Walmart, there was a chain in every city my dad had gone from World War Two and surplus military and had then gone into discount department store anyway, he had a very excellent location. And it was alcohol was fair traded the state set the prices It was kind of a no brainer. Businesses just sort of showed up and if you had a good location, it was pretty easy so 11:56 people drink when good times and bad good 11:59 times and bad. And and and you just needed a good location. So he set up my uncle, he's trying to help him out with this wonderful location for a real small liquor store. And my uncle turned out to be a drunk, a thief. He was a womanizer, and he was definitely a gambler. So his idea of running a business was the show. I 12:25 think he hit every single one of the Cardinals. Well, 12:27 yeah, he was good at that. And he was an all around jerk, too. So anyway, he, his idea of running a business was to come in in the morning at like 630 in the morning, take whatever cash he could out of the cash register and a bottle for the day and then disappear. Well. Needless to say, after about no matter how easy the businesses with that kind of approach. After eight or nine months, the business it failed, and it was shuttered and my dad said, you know, this is a no brainer. Why don't you come to town? Quit teaching for one year, take over this liquor store. I'm sure you can make enough money maybe to say Your wife to medical school. And you know, you can go back to teaching you know that you can do this as a side gig. So we didn't use Word gig. That was that's definitely not a 1975 word. But anyway, I did it. And I said, why not. And so he loved me enough to get started. And I really enjoyed it. I love. I love the people part of it. I love retailing. It was it was in the West End, African American area of blue collar area of loyal. I loved learning, you know, just about people and what they were doing. It was before urban renewal, so the very intact communities and I felt that they made me feel a part of the community. I just, I feel like it was my street education and I was there for seven or eight years. I paid my dad back after one year I was so proud and I never went back to teaching and just stayed in the alcohol industry. So that's my creation myth. 13:53 And so your dad was the store owner at the time and he told you to run it is that what 13:56 no he owned the discount department store okay, right next door, the generated The traffic guy made it such a great location. But we were right on the corner, you know, with our own independent little store. And it was like 1500 square feet. So tiny little store and I just kept going. And then without trying to be too boring here. This is 14:15 how I built Well, 14:16 after seven or eight years, Kentucky eliminated fair trade it was eliminated through a court case, because the state was actually setting prices for private enterprise so it was thrown out and no one knew what to do. So I said what the heck I'll I'll do something. So at that time that the trend in retail was big box stores and you know, maybe there are a few of your older listeners that will remember that, you know, it's just cut cases by cheap by NDO cut the cases, no frills and let the consumer just come in and save money and it was a big trend. And I said, well, let's try that with alcohol and no one else is doing anything Kentucky sigh I found this old AMP and Shively, another blue collar area of low evil and I rented the whole place and I started this started like in September and it was not going so well I mean I was doing okay but was wasn't gaining much traction my all everybody was interested in the industry and what I was doing and not very happy because you know people want to keep preserved the past and they didn't like this young upstart with new ideas for the alcohol industry so everybody is watching me like a hawk. And we also had the first PC and the small business that I knew of in loyal and in order to because we had a fair number of skews even even for the you know, even compared to today, we still had a fair number of skews so the computer was the only way at retail to manage them and I was doing all the data input and everything I was working you know, 18 hours a day and we had a law in Kentucky and I'm sure it's still is that you cannot sell below cost. Accidentally I was so tired sometimes I made mistakes. And I would sell you know I would actually put into the computer the cost instead of the price or something. Yeah, so accidentally I was selling a few items below cost 15:58 me like a like a consumer is like perfect, perfect storm. 16:02 Yeah, you can come in, you know talking about looking for destinies you can just come in and looking for deal. So anyway, its competitors are watching me they noticed that they turned me into the state ABC board and this is a magical story and it's absolutely true story. So the Saturday before Thanksgiving, the courier journal, the big newspaper of Louisville was doing a story I'm sure it was going to end up on, you know, right next to the obituaries or something, nothing story, but they were in the building with a photographer. And just at that moment, on a Saturday morning, the state ABC showed up with three armed officers. And while the photographer and the courier Journal reporter were there, they literally arrested me and handcuffed me for selling alcohol below cost. And this ended up on the Sunday before Thanksgiving on the front page of the courier journal was some headline like young entrepreneur blows away the liquor industry selling products to cheeky 17:00 arrest. It's amazing that you get arrested for that 17:02 well and it was ridiculous because you know, within one hour they they you know somebody the supervisor was apologizing and they let me go and it ended up like three months later I paid like a $50 fine and you know, it was no problem but it put me on the front page of the newspaper and then of course all the suburbanites couldn't get there fast enough and it was Thanksgiving and we were we were a success from that point. 17:23 It tell me you gave that newspaper like frame somewhere in your 17:26 Yeah, I think that actually I don't have it on a wall and I've actually tried to research and I have to be more diligent But anyway, it's a it's a true story we got started and then that grew into a chain at one point of six discount liquor stores in the state of Kentucky and Northern Kentucky and for two up here and for loyal. It was a big chain and just to conclude the story about died lose track of time and maybe 1214 years ago, I was really very tired of being a corporate person. I'm not born to do that. I like being on the street. I like being in a register. I like You know being in the in the trenches and I wasn't happy I had like 350 employees and you know a lot of debt a lot that's a lot to manage it was a lot to manage to cities and and and you know, so it's dealing the lawyers and bankers and all the problems personnel problems that got big and blown up, got to my desk and I wasn't doing I was unhappy. And so I I like to express it as I jumped off the capitalist trade. And I sold five of the six stores because I really liked running a store and I kept the party source in Bellevue Newport right next to Cincinnati. And it was was 18:34 the reason for that was it because it was a very high traffic high volume or was it because you're like, I need to get a change at a level what was the 18:41 precisely very pressing on your on your part because that's exactly the two reasons so I felt it had the best future because Ohio still 25 years ago had state stores. So and so it was a no brainer if you were very, very close and we were at the first exit of the main main interstate interstate of The East End of Cincinnati and we are doing extremely well and I thought it could grow and be even greater store so I wanted to focus on it. And secondly was 100 miles from a local side stop working seven days a week, because I had a family had children. So those are the two reasons that I kept it and I love that store. And the party source today I'm happy to say is the week say that we believe it to be the largest single store in the United States alcoholic beverage store physically and as today about $48 million in business but of course, I had to divest it five years ago in order to become a distiller but it's I sold it to my employees I'm very proud of that. And they're doing very well today and have paid me back and and it's it's moving forward it's still a great store. 19:47 So while you were still on the retail side, was there ever a point where you had any mild regrets or saying like what if if I didn't get rid of these these five locations like could have grown bigger Could I have gotten a Because if you think of today of what's happening, you've got the total lines of the world that kind of buy up people like is there is there ever that kind of what if scenario in your head 20:08 no because and that just gets into personal philosophy, you know, the point of life to me is that just become rich. I think I think that's a root of a lot of problems today in corporate America and and and with our society in general there's too much greed and and it's all about me. So I enjoyed the entrepreneurial challenge and I liked working with people, a young team of employees as well as the customers and I love the freedom of owning my own store at that point you know, selling five of them I was debt free, so I could do what I wanted to do in the store and not have to do any short term thinking and so never looked back I have I'm happy to say I've always had a you know, very nice upper middle class lifestyle and by God that's enough. I mean, having some control over your life and and feeling that you're doing some good and that you're sharing enjoying some lives of your employees and being a good community member and caring about the environment and you know, having some balance in life and purpose and meeting, not just trying to make money and get bigger and bigger and bigger and die rich that never had any attraction to me. 21:14 So you're you're running one of the states not only just the state because you're here as you said, You're the first exit off of the coming off from Cincinnati in Kentucky. And it was it for a lot of people. It's it's a destination, it is a destiny, retail location. And at the same time, you're also like I said, it's huge. You're competing with the liquor barns in Louisville at this time. What was what was the determining factor to say I'm ready to hang this up and move to something new 21:42 well, and the liquor barns in Louisville were the original four of them were three of them were my my stores. Okay, so there we go. You know, so I mean that the circle goes around, but and they're good customer today and a valued customer of us today. The motivation Kenny was just Sometimes we do things and unconsciously our subconscious takes over. And just as whatever was 12 1415 years ago, I was just not happy and I call it my 71 aha moment because 70 one's the road between Cincinnati or Northern Kentucky and loyal and I was on it a lot. And then you know, had a lot of time to think and, you know, it just I wasn't happy and I wanted to make a change and I think subconsciously I knew that I was a little bit of a burnout I had been doing it at that point, retailing which is a very, very, very hard work and it is six, seven days a week and you know, all the holidays and so forth. So and fairly repetitious. You know, I was a buyer, I was a spirits buyer as well as the owner. And it's just the drill and it's, you know, as wonderful drill and I loved it, but it's intense and deals are coming at you and there's a lot of paperwork and and it's a routine that goes on and on and on. So I think subconsciously I was a little bit of a burnout at that point. I didn't want to retire. I love working and I feel that it's healthy for the mind. And I think retirement is like, announcing to your body that you're ready to die or something. So I really do believe that and so I was not at all interested in any of that. So, 23:12 you know, most people just get a Porsche. That's usually what, 23:16 you know, everybody thinks. I mean, when I sold the you have no idea what people said to me and what I know what they were not saying to me. You know, they were completely astonished and befuddled that a guy would take the party source doing $40 million a year debt free, you know, just a gravy train and not just like retire to a beach and on Florida or something and let a manager run it at least but to sell it, you know, sell it to the employees, you know, and take that risk on top of everything else was going to the spirits business, build a distillery madness, absolute madness, but anyway, JS men is my wonderful, fantastic well known a lot of your folks listeners will know who jr Smith is. So he's my co founder. I like to Thinking that way, although he's not an ownership, and Jay was my fine spirits buyer, the specialty spirits buyer at the party source. So he's worked for me for many years. And jokingly say, you know, can we're both watching this brown goods revolution happening and resurgence and resurrection. right under our nose. We see it at the party source every day of our allies. This thing's got legs. So, I credit Jay with, you know, why don't we open a distillery? Yeah, that's a great idea. Oh, it's funny. 24:31 Because they're not 24:32 any more good ones. You know, here we are running the party source, you know, you know, tracking money to the bank. Oh, that's a great idea. Jay. Well, along the way, it became a little more serious. So I do credit Jay and not myself with the idea for starting new Earth distilling. But it was it just appealed to my entrepreneurial side of me and the challenge aspect to get back into the game and and see what I could create and what my lifetime of experience in alcoholic beverages could do. And I love The idea of the challenge of starting from the ground up and building a team of young people, which has occurred and they're fantastic, and I just really wanted to have a second act in my life. And I actually and I'll tell you honestly, I thought, you know, this could be almost like semi retirement because once you start distilling, I mean, you just kind of sit around and watch barrels age, right? That's what I assumed would happen. You know, I'd wander in you know, noon or something and 25:26 get myself a glass Hey, you 25:28 know, how hard can it be you know, you're just gonna watch these barrels get old. So of course, it's proven to be way more challenging way more dynamic way more interesting than any of that. But that was the impetus was being at the party source seeing it happen. Realizing that why not Northern Kentucky all the action, the limited action there was seven or eight years ago was all in central Kentucky and just starting and loyal. You know, why not Northern Kentucky because we're right next to a city that's more than twice as large as local, very wealthy city and a sophisticated city. And, you know and the party source have done so well right next to Cincinnati, why wouldn't a distillery so we arrived decided to go ahead and take on the challenge and sell the party source and get back out there on the on the interest position where I just feel comfortable in a way that most people don't. 26:17 So you decide to sell the party source. Was this because you needed the funds to be able to start the distillery or is that is there another motivating factor? Well, 26:25 the main reason is in the three tier system, you cannot be a distiller or manufacturer, and a retail or wholesale or the that's what the three tier means I came across you can't be both. 26:36 I've also heard you could probably put your wife's name under the contract. I know you can get around. You mean that's another legal hurdle but yeah, 26:43 but but it's not true in Kentucky. And it is true in some other states, for instance, New York as a one store law and there's plenty of families that have four or five stores. But that is not true in Kentucky and we are way too big and way too visible to play any shitty shenanigans with the ABC and Too much is way too much as invested in it risk to take any of that on So, and I thought it was a great thing selling the store to the employees. And, you know, I take you know, when all of a sudden done I'll be very very very pleased with the success and the reputation and the great whiskey of new roof but I also will be proud that I've changed 100 or 200 lives and giving themselves some pride and some self some control over their lives as employees and an employee owned company, and a little nest egg. You know, I said when I retired when I sold the store, and my general manager john styles is a fantastic guy took a took it over. So we had an experience management team. I said there's only one thing I want, as long as I'm alive. When someone retires and they're getting like a six figure check. Even if it's just one of those big checks, you know for show. I want to him hand the check to that employee. That's what I want out of this deal because we're talking about you know, 15 $16 an hour employees. Maybe some Someday things go well and they seem to be after 20 years, some of them might be handing them a six figure retirement, you know, for people that are living paycheck to paycheck and I want to be, I want to be when that magic there when that magic moment happens. 28:13 Yeah, I mean, I think you're you're really wrapping up the epitome of what it is to be a better than, than most of the entrepreneurs that are out there that are after chasing that that big paycheck or chasing that big payday. Your personality is really showing through that it's a you're one of the good spirited people that are out there and, and trying to build something that's that's ultimately bigger than yourself. 28:34 So many other people. And I don't want to get on a tangent, but there's a big movement in the United States, called a lot of things. But there's chapters all over the United States called conscious capitalism, you know, then again, I don't want to get into a tangent. I'm not talking about bourbon. But the idea that capitalism doesn't have to be as raw and just ingredients selfish that you can care about the community and care about your employees. You can care about the environment. That the bottom line should involve all those stakeholders not just ownership so let's let's get back to bourbon let's 29:05 let's definitely get back to bourbon kind of talk about your, your introduction to it as well because I think we need to capture that because, you know, you had this very entrepreneurial mind going into it, Jay said, hey, there's this brown water revolution. But was there a point when you said like, you know, like, I'm from Kentucky, I enjoy bourbon. I like bourbon. You've worked in the stores. We're pushing bourbon to people or people to bourbon, like, kind of talk about your gravitation just towards the product itself. 29:33 Sure. And I'll be dead honest about all this. First of all, Jay and I are great pair and that is cofounders. Because Jay is a Trump has a tremendous palate. And he's also a tremendous historian of alcoholic beverages around the world. And he was the fine spirits buyer and he would sleuth out things that, you know, people in the Midwest certainly other than the two coasts had never heard of him brought in so he knew he has a network of people he knows about. around the world. So, Jay brings to new riff, the great depth and honest depth of knowledge and a profound palette, and, and sophistication about alcoholic beverages to, to our company. I don't bring any of that. You know, I mean, at the party source, we are phenomenal wine store, and I'm a knowledgeable amateur. That's my extent of it. So I feel I'm a knowledgeable amateur about brown goods. But no expert do not have a refined palette. I know my place and that's good too. So that's what I bring to the team, of course, the founder of the financial aspect and the team building and the long term strategy and perspective of where the industry is going and so forth. So we're very good team together. So I think that's been a core of how we've, you know, started new ref and where we want it to go with it. Can you remember your first taste of bourbon? My first taste of bourbon was probably like a lot of lot of your listeners It was and I do remember, unfortunately, I was in the backseat of a car when I haven't seen y'all know where this is going. Yeah, all bad. And it was I'll never forget it was JW dat in a pint bottle and drank it straight. And you know what happened in the backseat of that car, which I spent about three hours terribly drunk, and a happy cleaning up before I turned it back to my day. So hoping he would never know Chris, he knew instantly. But that was my first experience. Like, I'm sure many of your listeners. 31:31 Absolutely, absolutely. So let's talk about, you know, the breaking of the ground and trying to build the team here. I know you've talked about JA and bringing him in, but what does it take to find? The still the distillers, everything like that to actually start getting the business off the ground and as well as sourcing because I know you had source products that are beginning to 31:51 well, the wonderful, yes, I mean, again, we Jay and I are good team and I think in some ways, I'm a good leader and founder be I know my own weaknesses. And I know what I don't know, which is a famous line from the past know what you don't know. And so when we started, we decided to approach this as a very serious enterprise. We decided to approach it a scale, that we would command the presence of Greater Cincinnati, and tend to preclude competition from coming in. Our goal from the very beginning was to be one of the great small distilleries of the world. Knowing that would take decades perhaps to accomplish and who knows, it'll be a self congratulatory thing, no one's going to notice that but to play in the sand lot of some of the greatest stories of the world small ones, is our goal and remains to this day our goal. And so in order to do that, we wanted to do everything extremely well, right from the beginning and put the resources which I felt we had with the selling of the party source, to work to to wait as long as we needed to for Five years to start bringing out whiskey and to just go for it in terms of quality in our and to find a leadership position as a small distillery the United States. So knowing that we went out or I went out and found some great people to get started Kentucky's a wonderful resource, the best thing that I did, I did two great things. One is one of my very first hires after Jay was the person who would maintain our plant manager so that he was involved with the construction and every aspect of planning and knew where every pipe was going. And I think that's something that's overlooked by a lot of people is is is you know, is the the guts and the fabric and the the core and the maintenance of your of a very complex manufacturing plant. I knew enough to know to hire a great person who's with us Dean today and he does a super job. 33:52 Dean was actually helping us earlier trying to get the AC turned off. 33:56 He knows that he knows everything. He knows where all the skeletons are, but I mean he knows where every valve is in every pipe and he was part of the construction crew for the year and a half and the whole thing was money very well spent. Second thing I did was found Larry Ebersole, who's the maybe the most important distiller of American history that many people have never heard of. And Larry was the plant manager at Sega drums as you well know, Kenny, for 25 plus years, the head distiller I misspoke, the head distiller at sea drums, and he's the guy that invented the famous 95 five, right recipe that, you know, right? I know what it is, but it used to be, it's more of what is seen on the shelf, and it's wonderful juice and Larry is a brand bread distiller and a wonderful human being. I count him as a good friend, and he was newly retired and living in Hebrew one which is near the Cincinnati airport, which is in Kentucky, and so he's only like 20 miles away, and was kind of pointing it turned out being a consultant. So didn't know how to get started at it is in his backyard it was Yeah, as easy for eight. And so we are a wonderful thing. So he really threw himself into it. best thing I ever did. And with Larry being involved from the very beginning, we knew we would construct and we did construct a very efficient a very, very well thought through distillery and not make some of the mistakes that are easy to make. And secondly, and perhaps in the long run more definitely more important in the long run with Larry on board as our consulting master distiller he would train my Distilling Team which gave me the freedom to pick with his approval, who would be on that steering team and I very deliberately with Jays advice in this regard to we did not go to Maker's Mark or heaven hill or four roses and higher way and assistant Stiller, which is the standard procedure because in the end, distillers do the same thing day after day and forgive me I don't mean to ruffle any feathers traditionally, at least they don't tend to be a very imaginative lot. 36:03 Don't get me Don't break. What's more, don't don't fix what's not broken. 36:07 People want to you want Maker's Mark, you don't want Maker's Mark with cream cheese on it, you know, it's, it's, it's appropriate and it's what they're the corporation's want. So if we hired someone from Maker's Mark, we'd end up with Maker's Mark north. And in truth, that's what happens, you know, when, when folks go from disorder to story, so what I knew and with Jace help, I knew I wouldn't have known this on my own. And Larry to fermentation is the key and distillers tend to poo poo. Traditional distillers tend to poo poo poo, fermentation, they don't pay that much attention to it. But fermentation if you don't have a great fermentation, you're not going to end up with great whiskey in the end. The people the folks that really understand this are brewers 36:52 absolutely their people, they know what they're Do they know. So 36:55 we deliberately went out and hired a fantastic Brewer in this case. It was pretty Ryan sprints who will absolutely be known if he's not already to so many people as a great young distiller and will truly be in the Hall of Fame someday. And Brian had been a small, small Brewer with a microbrewery in Cincinnati and for about eight years had worked at Sam Adams and I'm not sure how many people know that Sam Adams is brewed in Cincinnati not in Boston. 37:23 Obviously I'm learning something today and 37:24 it is it's the old beautiful plant and 95% of Sam Adams is burden sensing that 37:29 now that name I've heard of the beautiful because it's like a Northern Kentucky kind of 37:32 well Cincinnati Cincinnati kind of it but but the plant was closed and And anyway, so Sam Adams owns it. So he worked for Sam Adams over there and a serious industrial plant. So he brought to us when I hired him and he wanted out because he's not a corporate kind of guy and he wanted to get back into you know, brewing so to speak, or, you know, the guts of doing it not just the big industrial and it was a unionized plan is to this day, unionized by anyone at different scale. So we found, you know, we know so many people in Kentucky and Cincinnati we found Brian and recruited him one very hard, eager to come in here to take the challenge when he saw how real we were, and to be part of a startup. And he just brought that fantastic imagination and knowledge of fermentation and an understanding of grains and malts that traditional distillers are just very linear and very blinders on 38:26 dance. So get your percentages, you're throwing your yeast. 38:30 Yeah, see you in a few days. Let's see. Yeah, well, every day do it every day and they make some great whiskey at all these heritage distilleries Believe me, I'm totally understand that. But we wanted to do a little riff or our own little tweaks and things. And with Larry able to train. It gave us the freedom to assemble that team, so no one in the distillery other than Larry had ever worked into this story before, but with Larry there, we did it as a team and we have a fantastic group of Six distillers today they're all career. They're all doing a super job. And Larry is he trained them, he stepped back. And that's just he's he was. He's our founding father in many ways. And Larry was very, is obviously very rice centric. It was the 95 five, right? He's so proud of and so and we happen to fit our tastes as well. So New Earth is truly a rice centric distillery. And I will, I've said this many times, we make fantastic bourbon. But I think our long term reputation becoming one of the great small distilleries of the world will have a lot to do with, with rise and rise of fence, interesting niche that I think we can play in that sandlot very, very well and be extremely well known around the world for our rye. And maybe stay a little bit away from the great heritage global distilleries you know in the future because you're we're all going to need a niche. 39:56 So did Larry help you out with choosing the mash bills as well for everything you're doing or is that more of a consensus from the group? There are more craft distilleries popping up around the country now more than ever. So how do you find out the best stories and the best flavors? 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It's taken over by our Distilling Team and Brian now galera likes to come and taste and and offer some thoughts if we run into something new every now and then that's really past our abilities. We call her and he, you know, he really thinks very fondly of us. And we were his first client and, and I think he's enjoying our growth and, and is very optimistic about our future. So 42:27 well before we start talking about you know a lot about your bourbon because I know you're doing crazy stuff with barrels and types of grains and malts and stuff like that. Let's talk about the okay, because I know you're sourcing at one point, what was the what was the gist? I mean, that's the thought process that a lot of startups go through and they think, Okay, well, let's get money rolling in. We'll buy some barrels will bottle it up. And that'll be a way to kind of build some revenue. Is that was that your thought process going into it as well? No. So least you're frank about. 42:57 Always be frank. I mean, the nice thing is you're dealing with The owner I don't have any, anybody I have to answer to and I'm getting older. So I'm pretty, pretty straightforward. Know, the answer was we were going for quality and we knew I mean, remember I you know, I own the largest liquor store in the United States I was the spirits buyer, I, I saw the cannery I saw the dishonesty of the, of the brown goods business I, I hated all of it and saw it from the beginning that the not disclosing not disclosing your source charging too much, you know, in a pretty perfume bottle for one year old whiskey and, and, you know, hurting the reputation of all craft distilleries, I saw all the bad things that have happened and continue to happen in this industry. So we wanted no part of it. That's not how you build a great small the story of the world. So from the beginning, we were always going to be transparent and incredibly open with everyone about everything we did. I had fortuitously bought a J's urging 350 barrels From MCP years couple years before we even thought about the distillery concept Oh, wow. So I had I hit Yeah, let's just you know, we'll bottle this someday for the party source. And so I you know, I wish of course I bought thousands. I hate to tell you they were like, I really hate to say this, they were like $375 a barrel. Oh 44:20 man. And you know, we've seen a in the price list now, 44:24 thousands and thousands of dollars if you could even get them and they were already like three years old when I bought them. So, fortuitously I had those barrels and we never bought any other barrels. So it's only 350 and the idea of having those barrels and okay i, we deliberately released it very, very slowly. The idea was just to have some bourbon in the distillery a good bourbon, because it's it's marketing and brand building. People come to this story, like new f1 it's two years old. They know intellectually that were too young to have great whiskey, but they still want to taste great whiskey. They still think you should have a final bourbon sitting around. So we did. And we were very clear it was okay i that we sourced, it wasn't ours, we just bottled it, dumped it and bottled it. And we deliberately rationed it out to last until our bourbon was available. And then we always intended and we did kill the brand because we we don't want to have anything to do with source goods. So it served its purpose extremely well. And then as you well know, Kenny, in the end, when it was 12 years old, it was a terrific value. And when people heard that it was ending, you know, became a cult item and they went crazy about it and it's still a little bit of one of those legendary things, but the purpose is never to have any source goods and that the sales of 300 or so barrels you know, for the size of new riff never moved the needle as far as helping us to survive. We we survived on my proceeds from the party source and on contract is still in for until we had our own whiskey to sell 46:00 Yeah, absolutely. So contract distilling is it's still a part of what your your daily businesses diminishing 46:03 all the time that the idea of the contract is still in was to survive. Until we became till whiskey could be four or five years old, serve that purpose, it was maybe about 45% of our budget and allowed us to be completely full which distillery in production, the story is much better when it's running, you know, at full steam, then turn it on and turn it off the equipment and so forth. So it serves that purpose. And gradually we're we're getting out of the, as we can afford to we're getting out of the contract distilling and taking back all those barrels for our own. You know, stock 46:39 your own aging and everything like that. 46:41 Yeah, we're doing a little bit and we'll do less every year. 46:44 So four years was kind of your your mark, when when new riffs started coming out. Was it for because you felt like it was ready? Or was it for because you said I think this is to the point where we don't have to worry about like, at this point, we don't to worry about putting age statements on the bottle. By TTD law so what was the what was the idea on for there? And were you nervous? 47:06 Yes, I was nervous. Of course. 47:09 JS man is the answer. JA again as our co founder and fantastic and brings that knowledge and Jays idea which I bought into and the rest of the team did from the beginning was let's not release any whiskey till it can be bottled in bond Jays, a historian and he's a lover things past very, very smart about the future too, of course, and, and current distilling, but felt that the, you know, years ago he felt that the bottled in Bond was was right for revival and that the original, the first federal law about food and drug purity United States was about alcohol in 1897, the bottled in Bond Act and Jay felt that the incipient incipient revival bottled in Bond was a fantastic movement and we wanted to be very much a family Remember that so we always intended to wait to be at least four years old. And then along the way we were very, very pleased with Larry results helped to, to be tasting things as you go along and things were moving Well, we liked our juice. We liked the way it was aging. So along the way we realized that getting to be at least four years ago, we were going to have a very credible whiskey out there. And I wanted to and I made sure that it was at a very credible and easygoing price because again, as a retailer, I understood marketing and sales and pricing, and wanted our whiskey to come out at a premium level and pricing, which you deserve this and also is a brand marker, but wanted to always make it an appropriate fair price. One, one click above the the global heritage companies, but not not at the kind of pricing that I've always found repugnant as a retailer and I certainly did as a consumer as well. 48:54 And not only that, as I mean, you come out with this the four year old product in right away. It started It's like kind of taking over a lot of the bourbon culture and the bourbon. mindshare, because everybody's amazed at the taste of a four year old product I don't think there's a lot of or really there's any other product out there today that can really say that it it competes of what new roof does at its at its age, like is there something that you can say that you can attribute that to? Sure or weapon of their sprinkled dust that you're putting? 49:25 sprinkle dust is the water? Yeah, it really is Kenny and and that's a nice story too. Because we first started when we plan and we're very close to breaking ground on the distillery we didn't know about our water source, our water source turned out to be an aquifer the high river aquifer 100 feet under under the distillery property and we didn't know about it when we first started planning but along the way someone said something to Jay you know you know there's there's a lot of water you guys gonna do a well and Jay ran with it. He's smart enough to listen and think you know and that's Jays personality. I mean he's a scientist and interested in everything and he thought I'm going to find out what the heck's under us. And we did we did we ran a test well, and then worked with the University of Kentucky to to analyze and understand what was going on underneath us. So geologically, it was just turned out to be a bonanza. Because the the aquifer and brief and I'm no stem person myself, so forgive me. But the aquifer essentially is a almost inexhaustible pool of water under the far northern part of Northern Kentucky, and it's created because the glacier stopped and created the Ohio River and created the hills of Cincinnati. That geologic force continues to the state of pump want to push water under the Ohio River, and it's going through sand silt, and guess what limestone and then Northern Kentucky from our site right on the river. You go straight up hills to go into southern can lucky to get away from Northern Kentucky. So as you go south, it's going up here. So we're in a bowl and all and as you look and you see the highways and the Brock along the highways, where they do the cuts and the passes and so forth, it's all limestone rock. So it's all coming from two directions and settling. And it's under us in this magnificent huge aquifer under our feet. And it turned out we did all the testing, and it came in and it's magnificent limestone filter, naturally filtered water. It's it had no lead, which is you know, the great thing. It's high calcium from the limestone, very high mineral content, water, and it's 58 degrees year round. So we don't have to have a cooling tower. We're a very environmentally healthy and successful distillery and that water that putting that mineral water right into our mash bill, and you can drink it, we've all drunk it's just hard water. hard water tastes like crap. But it's great for to still it. And I would contend and obviously if someone's going to jump up out of this microphone Want to choke me but I believe it or not, Northern Kentucky new roof has the best water in Kentucky for distilling because the fact of the matter that the marketing people don't want you to know is that almost every other and perhaps every other significantly sized distillery in the state of Kentucky uses city water or river water and then they filter the hell out of it turned it into our water so they're putting into their mash bills whatever they're tell showing you in your advertising, 52:30 you know, whether it's coming from some sort of wheel that's spinning in 52:34 a lake or something absolutely in this wonderful spring and all that which long ago they outgrew you know the whole thing. But you know mean Buffalo Trace Polson the Kentucky River you know, the brown Forman polls for local municipal water I can go on and on and on and i'm not i'm not slamming them in any way they make fantastic whiskey. But we are bringing a natural high mineral content, awesome water into our message. Bill and God, darn it, I think that's when you only have like three ingredients going into your mash bill and one of them changes dramatically. That means something and then you layer on that Kenny, you know the the fact that we're all about quality at every turn and you know the the corn comes from a family farm the same one that for roses uses in Indiana and we can go on and on and on we we come off the still at less than the maximum we go into the barrel at 110. Instead of the legal maximum 125 we use 18 and 24 months aged in oak staves instead of the standard, you know, barrel at $100 more a barrel than other people. We go on and on and on. It's all about quality at every turn. But it starts with that water. So there are very good reasons. It's not by chance that our four year old thank you for saying so i think is a very good product. And you're going to want to get to this it's going to be fantastic when it's seven eight and 10 53:54 Oh yeah, that's what we'll save that here for a second because I kind of want to know your your plans for the future with that, but You know, back to this, you know, let's let's rewind it back another 1520 years or maybe 25 years, when you bought the location of the party source was it? You look at it now like just dumb luck. 54:11 Yeah, we bought the land and the distillery for your listeners that don't know, the distillery is right in front of the party source and we're right on right on the river. Across from Cincinnati, you can't get any closer to Cincinnati. But that was the point of the retail store, because Ohio had state stores and 80% or more of our customers came from Ohio. And that's why the party source grew to be such a large store. It's a it's a natural for Northern Kentucky but it's because we had all of Cincinnati coming to us so and then when I wanted to do the distillery the original plan was just Gee, this is a nice, I own I own some property. And that's another story too. I actually had to take out a levee and build a wall, a flood wall and so forth. million dollar flood wall in order to get more property. But the point was, I thought it'd be a great location. Very well known right in front of the source and there was a symbiotic symbiotic relationship you know people could come on a tour to see us and then walk into this fantastic whiskey store and shop and it's turned out to be like that but dumb luck in terms of the water absolutely dumb luck 55:14 it's just like being in Texas and somebody knock on your door me like oil in your backyard we'd 55:18 like to buy your land Yeah, and you just scratch under your armpits and go all the way down 55:25 so let's talk a bit about like the little bit of future state right because Sure, today we there's a lot of stuff out there it's a lot of for your product. There's people like myself we go we do barrel pics here. It's a four year product. I know that a lot of people we love it as is. However there's always this can't wait until it's six it's eight to 10 years so kind of talk about what your your future plans are to kind of stocks in these barrels. Sure. 55:52 Yeah, it's been it's been a but but first of all, it is a great ride and the four year of the bottle and bond is a wonderful product and will never release any plans. product from our distillery any whiskey that's less than bottled in bond for a year. And, and, and, and hundred proof and or it'll be barrel proof every one of the two. So, and that's why we've been and that's why we're always be because we think that's, we think that's the highest quality expression and that's what we're all about to, to hopefully become one of the great small distilleries of the world. Which by the way, even if we fall short, hey, it's great. I mean, life should be about lofty goals and and trying your damn this and, you know, if we fall short, and you know, we're not quite there. It still is a worthy endeavor. But signs are decent that we might, we've taken a few steps in that direction and we might just get there and 10 or 12 years in some form of recognition from the public and writers in our own self assessment, but 56:48 you really don't want to retire. Do you? 56:50 Know I actually, I'd like to stick around. honest truth is I'd like to stick around long enough in an extremely active role will stay a family business by In the business, everybody here is career we're not selling out, we're not going, we have no interest in one of the big boys buying a minority share, we're surviving. We're getting through the roughest part right now, economically, and we're going to stay 100% independent, because that's really the only way you can really achieve greatness is having incredibly long term thinking, and just be totally disinterested in short term results. So, and having that freedom of without any corporate decision making because whatever anyone says, nothing will change, we're going to buy you out and nothing's going to change. None of your people are going to change everything to say, everything's different a year later. We all know it. It's just it's a fact out there. So we're going to stay independent. And, and that's very important. So we've taken some steps. I mean, I think the fact Kenny, that I'm sure you're aware, we went out to our very first competition we ever went to, because again, why go to all these little county fairs or whatever, just so you can say, award winning, nobody. It doesn't mean anything to the like your listeners. And there's the People that we really care about that will establish our reputation. So we waited. We think like a lot of people that the San Francisco International spirits competition is the main spirits competition. It's an arguable issue but certainly one of the top couple we think it's the 58:15 you came on with a few medals from 58:17 it. Well, the thing is, we submitted all five of the products, we make three whiskeys and two gins and all five of them one double goal. You know, it's unheard of. 58:28 It's It's like going to the Olympics and just like it's 58:30 crazy. I mean, let's put it in context. And, and I'll abstract this real fast and backpedal. But you know, this year factually, Buffalo Trace submitted 21 entries and got seven double goals, numerous submitted five inches and got five double gold. We are not the equivalent above Buffalo Trace far better to story. You know, and they are, in my opinion, the best in the business. But the thing is, we've taken a step toward that goal. We you know, so We feel very encouraged to have some exterior validation. And it's so we're not just in a circle, you know, talking to each other about these things. So anyway, we started to take a step now to get back and sorry that sometimes I run on but it's a very passionate subject. We know to put up the very best whiskey that we can and to really have a very high world reputation as good as our four year old is and it's fairly priced as we will always keep it. We have to have older whiskey. So we've this year, I mean, it's all it gets back to a matrix of economics. Our first year of release, we held back only we held back 20% of everything we make to get older. Next year, we're budgeted for 33 a full third of everything we make, to get older. And what I will say now, which is actually the first time I've ever seen this public So it's a credit to the the reach that that that you guys have and the the interest in the students of your listeners, we're actually going to do a small expansion of the distillery. And we'll get back to that if you want. But the point that I want to make right now is the only purpose of that expansion is not to make more four year old or not to make some more money in the short run. It's to have older whiskey and a lot of it. So we are going to make a stand toward older whiskeys will always have a great four year old bottled in bond product at an extremely fair price. It may not go up in price for 10 years, stay at $40 fine with me. And then eventually we'll have a very fairly priced will have older whiskies and personally we'll see if things change. I'm all for age statements. I think again and and this is really where the future of new roof is going to be his older whiskies a great entry level that is fantastic. For cocktails and it's just fantastic for for sipping on without talking about it. But it'll be the seven year old eight year old, maybe 10 year old and whatever in very in everything that we make getting older that will put us on the map and will really I think make us proud and I think your listeners are going to really want to have someday we're going to try and have enough of it that it's not this high cult high scarcity kind of item I'm not saying that it'll be on a shelf but we want to have a lot more out there you know thousands of cases of older whiskey and not just dribble it out to people 1:01:35 makes more people are makes more sense people to start joining the Rangers program then so they get those was inside. 1:01:41 The Rangers program is ended 1:01:42 but the whistle as it I didn't know that. 1:0

Let's talk about vaping as the new health crisis... On this week's episode of the Lunch and Learn with Dr. Berry we have Dr. Andrew Berry, a Gastroenterology Fellow to discuss one of the most talked-about current public health crisis which is Vaping. As we have moved the public needle in regards to the harmful effects of cigarette smoking, e-cigarettes/vaping has become the alternative but unfortunately, that has come with consequences. Dr. Berry gives some amazing facts about how this craze first began, just how many deaths are attributed to vaping and what to expect for the future of the industry. Text LUNCHLEARNPOD to 44222 to join the mailing list. Remember to subscribe to the podcast and share the episode with a friend or family member. Listen on Apple Podcast, Google Play, Stitcher, Soundcloud, iHeartRadio, Spotify Sponsors: Lunch and Learn Community Online Store (code Empower10) Pierre Medical Consulting (If you are looking to expand your social reach and make your process automated then Pierre Medical Consulting is for you) Dr. Pierre's Resources - These are some of the tools I use to become successful using social media My Amazon Store - Check out all of the book recommendations you heard in the episode Links/Resources: The E-Cig Vaping Health Crisis: Medical Overview Pathology of Vaping-Associated Lung Injury Twitter Social Links: Join the lunch and learn community – https://www.drberrypierre.com/joinlunchlearnpod Follow the podcast on Facebook – http://www.facebook.com/lunchlearnpod Follow the podcast on twitter – http://www.twitter.com/lunchlearnpod – use the hashtag #LunchLearnPod if you have any questions, comments or requests for the podcast For More Episodes of the Lunch and Learn with Dr. Berry Podcasts https://www.drberrypierre.com/lunchlearnpodcast/ If you are looking to help the show out Leave a Five Star Review on Apple Podcast because your ratings and reviews are what is going to make this show so much better Share a screenshot of the podcast episode on all of your favorite social media outlets & tag me or add the hashtag.#lunchlearnpod Download Episode 130 Transcript Download the MP3 Audio file, listen to the episode however you like.   Episode 130 Transcript... Introduction Dr. Berry: Welcome to another episode of the Lunch and Learn with Dr. Berry. I'm your host, Dr. Berry Pierre, your favorite Board Certified Internist. Founder of drberrypierre.com, as well the CEO of Pierre Medical Consulting. Helping you empower yourself for better health with the number one podcast for patient advocacy, education and affirmation. This week we are going to be talking with Dr. Andrew Berry who is a Board Certified Internist and also a second year GI fellow, gastroenterology fellow. But we are going to be talking about a topic of vaping because that's something that's right along his alley as known as the GI fellow. But he is very well versed in lots of different academic related topics. And we got together thinking, you know what, let's talk about a subject at hand that if you are a smoker, if you know a smoker and you've heard about this this new, this trend. I would say new, but this trend of e-cigarettes and vaping, let's talk about vaping. Let's talk about what we're hearing in the news about vaping. Whether it's harmful, whether it's good for you. Who should be vaping? So we're gonna be talking about vaping on this episode today and I think it's a good one because it is something that, again, I listened to this episode and I was getting so much education from it and I know you will too. So again, Lunch and Learn community and like always, if you have not done so, please subscribe to this podcast. Leave us a five star review especially from my Apple podcasts users. Your help is greatly appreciated and like always, if you remember to share with not one but maybe 10 friends and let them know how much of an amazing episode this was today. So we're talking about vaping. Get ready to sit back for another amazing episode here on the Lunch and Learn with Dr. Berry. Episode Dr. Berry Pierre: Alright Lunch and Learn community, you just heard another amazing introduction for a topic that I think you are really in for a treat for. Again, when you turn on your TV, read the blogs. This is definitely something that has been really on front page news now. Especially, I work in a hospital setting and people keep asking me about it. People keep asking me vaping, vaping, vaping. What is vaping? How dangerous is vaping? Why are so many people dying from vaping? And I figured, hey, you know what, let's get someone who knows what they're talking about on the subject. So again, I want to thank, I like to call the real Dr. Berry to talk about a topic. It's so funny because I call myself Dr. Berry but it's a funny thing. People like be able to call me by my first name some weird reason. I'm not sure why. But I like be able call my first name, but I still want it to attach the doctor to it. So alright, sure. I'll be Dr. Berry. But we have the real Dr. Berry - Dr. Andrew Berry who's going to be really educating us today Lunch and Learn community on just what vaping is and just why we should be really, really worried about it. So, Dr. Berry, thank you for joining the podcast today. Dr. Andrew Berry: Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. This is definitely a topic that's hot and we want to hit the hot topics that are relevant to all markets. I appreciate you having me on. Dr. Berry Pierre: So Dr. Berry before we get into this amazing topic, tell the Lunch and Learn listeners about yourself, who you are, why this topic is such a hot button topic for you and that way we can get into the meat of it. Dr. Andrew Berry: Actually a GI fellow currently. So basically one more year of training and then I'm out in the practice, treating all your stomach problems. But right now I'm still in training. Internal Medicine Board Certified, so obviously something that you're familiar with. You deal with people all the time and training the next wave of internal medicine physicians, which is highly appreciated. Also did my training, medical school. Some of my rotations were actually in West Palm Beach where you were. Dr. Berry Pierre: So funny because first of all Lunch and Learn community, Dr. Berry sent me a CV, I think 20 plus pages. So I'm already impressed at a CV and I'm seeing some of my former residents. Amongst some of the persons, I'm like, how does he know Dr. Kaplan? I tried to figure out. And then I'm trying to be like, hold on. Now it's called JMP North campus, then we'll see at the time when I was there? And then I was trying to go back and I was like, I couldn't remember. I couldn't remember if you were there at the same time I happened to be there. I definitely, because I heard name, just for some reason it was so crazy because I was seeing all of these publications. Her name just stood out. How she get there? Dr. Andrew Berry: I think it's a small world. But I think you were there when I was there, just like vaguely. So I saw you in passing, I didn't have the privilege to work with you. Dr. Berry Pierre: Yes. I saw some of the posters that are like 2014 so I wasn't sure if, because that would have been my last year, uh, as, as a residence. I wasn't sure where you were your student that year or wasn't sure we just hadn't crossed there or was just that in passing. Dr. Andrew Berry: Yeah. I'm not sure, who knows? Probably both. Dr. Berry Pierre: So definitely well-read. And like I said again Lunch and Learn community I'm not joking. The CV really is like 20 plus pages. Just amazing story. And especially for someone who, as a person who does academic medicine, I'm loving it. Oh wow, okay. This is a person who is really, really well-read. So definitely a person I want to make sure that we get to try to touch on a whole bunch of different topics as we can. And so today we're talking about vaping. Just for those maybe someone who does not know what would vaping is. What is vaping, just so for the general community? Dr. Andrew Berry: Everybody knows smoking taking off big time in the last couple of decades, middle of 1950s, 1960s. The big social stigma. But ever since let's say 2012, there's been a trend for this new thing called vaping, which is electronic cigarettes. So instead the smoke you get the tobacco coming out, you just get to smell the vape. It is a little shot of a smoke in the air, disappears and dissipates. And it's not like tobacco, it's usually nicotine based and nowadays they're becoming more THC, cannabis based also. But now it's becoming a little bit more of an issue because there's more illnesses and patients having symptoms that are arriving from these vaping products. Dr. Berry Pierre: What's interesting because I love how you touched on the fact that it is nicotine based because I think sometimes people think that if they do the vaping or is it, first of all, question, is e-cigarettes and vaping, is that similar from a reference standpoint? Dr. Andrew Berry: It’s interchangeable. So initially e-cigs you know, a way to ween known adult smokers off of tobacco products, cigarettes. But now it's becoming more cool slang term to call it vaping. And there's even more other terms for it. But that's what everybody thinks. E-cigs is what's called two years ago and an older crowd, but they think it's the trending way. Dr. Berry Pierre: Okay, perfect. And I love the fact that you touched on that it's nicotine based because I think some people make a fuse the fact that if they're vaping that they're not getting the nicotine aspect that they would get like in a regular cigarette? Dr. Andrew Berry: Yeah. In fact, they're actually getting more. Some of the studies have shown that they're actually more nicotine in these products. We're used to the patch and the gum to wean smokers off, which is FDA approved, as you probably use in your clinics and in a hospital setting. But the vaping is not FDA approved to wean smokers off. It is just a means to do so for adult known smokers. But the nicotine product content is actually in some of these products much higher than traditional cigarettes and/or patches or gum. Dr. Berry Pierre: Wow. So, okay. Alright. Lunch and Learn community, I always tell you guys that sometimes, I have to learn from my guests as well. So it has definitely, some really strange, but very interesting thing to hear the fact that you're not really putting it away from the nicotine because if it's not more that you're going to get in this, the vaping aspect of it. When did it all start? How long has this been around? Why is this such a hot topic now? What would you say? Dr. Andrew Berry: Yeah, exactly. So it's been really going relevant a little bit since 2012. But 2017 is when you noticed a huge rise up to the point that over the last three years, well currently this year is about 8 million adults using e-cigs or vape products and about 5 million children also vaping, which is crazy. Because of 2017, so it's two years ago, it's 11% of high school students admitted to vaping on a daily regular basis. However, 2019, so just in two years, it's up to 27%. So over two and a half times increase. One out of four high school students are actively vaping on a daily basis. Dr. Berry Pierre: Wow, that's crazy. Okay. Alright. Especially because you said kids, so I'm thinking like, is he 16, 17? So that young they're starting to vape? Dr. Andrew Berry: Yeah. Even in middle school. So in middle school were about 5% right now, which is one out of 20 middle school students admit to using vape products on a daily basis. And this is also people that admit to it. So as you and I both know, the numbers are actually higher. Dr. Berry Pierre: Exactly. If our patient says they drink two drinks a day, it's probably closer to four. So that's definitely a point I agree with wholeheartedly. For sure. When we talk about just vaping, why do you think like this I guess boom? And I don't know if we should even be calling it. Why do you think this level of popularity just exploded in such a short timeframe? Dr. Andrew Berry: Yeah, exactly. So it's not even much advertising was needed. Multiple hypothesis, event thrown out there. One is social media. This is something that can be spread easily in social media. The market uses social media in the last two, three, four years. It's skyrocketed. Instagram, Twitter, all the above. And they can do these tricks, these vape tricks. So there's all these YouTube videos, millions and millions of views regarding tricks with the vape, the smoke, they play it to music, EDM music to Friday night, vape night where they've smoke, vape and play music and just do stuff like that. Dr. Berry Pierre: Wow. When you say vape tricks, what type of tricks are you doing? Dr. Andrew Berry: You having some sort of fan product in the room or they huff and puff at the vape and then swirl smoke around with their hand. In addition to music and EDM and then they hold and they make music videos out of it. I mean from a third party viewer, not in my words, but it's cool. Dr. Berry Pierre: So funny. I've seen those videos and really never paid it any mind that that's what they were actually doing in those videos. Okay, that's weird. I'll take it back. I used to say that's cool too. I used to be like, okay that’s nice. Dr. Andrew Berry: Exactly. And a couple of years ago when this first started and like 2017, there's principals and high school teachers even coming out now saying, they didn't even notice these people. They thought it was a USB drive. So one of the main companies, Juul, which is one of the hottest companies in the last couple of years, worth billions of dollars. You could stick their little vape into a USB drive on your laptop and looks like you're charging a USB drive. (Wow). So no one knows people are smoking in the classroom. They're actually, the goal, it's not like a cigarette where you, let's say in 1999 you'd go in the bathroom and hide, sit there, you're faking constipation, sitting there for 10 minutes trying to smoke a cigarette and hide it and spray cologne. Now people are vaping purposely. They want, they've tried today vape. Every time the teacher turns their head, someone, their friend takes a picture, they post it and it goes viral. So it's the opposite, which is kind of, that's why it's… Dr. Berry Pierre: And do they even get like that smell that tends to linger? If you're smoking a cigarette, obviously there's like a cigarette type smell, but when they vaping is that just like not there? Dr. Andrew Berry: Yeah, exactly. Very good point. So 80% of Juul's sales and which is the best surrogate for the market because it's the best company. Biggest company sells flavored e-cigs. So when you smoke these, they actually smell like fruits, female student high schools perfume. You literally can't tell the difference. And it goes away fairly quick. So that's why this whole, we'll get to that in a second, about this whole ban, to try to ban these flavored products first and foremost. Dr. Berry Pierre: Interesting. Okay. Alright. Like I said Lunch and community, I am being educated along with you guys. Because again, this is a topic that again, because I'm internist so I take care of a lot of adults. And most of the time I take care a lot of older adults. So a lot of times the cigarettes and I'm trying to get out their hands. I'll never ever usually having to say like, hey, stop that vaping machine. I'm never having to say that. So this is definitely seems like a problem that's been pushed towards a younger crowd. Dr. Andrew Berry: Correct. And the marketing, the Juul company has specifically said they've never marketed toward young crowd. They have been, they have had some small social media promoters, some actors and all that that they sort of pay as years ago. But right now they are currently not marketing to this crowd. And that is the whole litigation legality issues currently going on with this company and all the other electronic cig vaping companies. The government is warning and trying to prevent any sort of marketing for a younger crowd. That is the number one topic right now. Dr. Berry Pierre: I'm naive to this topic. Are kids able to buy these things? Is there an age or how are so many of these young kids able to get this stuff? Dr. Andrew Berry: Exactly. So up until recently, most States had age of 16 or 18. But nowadays about 18 or about 20 of the States have now enforced new regulations saying that you have to be 21 to buy these products. Also the company which has been forced upon the company by the government is coming forth with these age verification systems where they only sell certain amount of products, certain amount of refills over certain periods for checking IDs stronger. The government is making them do this. They've had to spend a hundred a million dollars to try to give incentives to retailers to install these new age verification systems. Dr. Berry Pierre: So obviously with something that is so popular with a crowd that will only get older, which means there's going to be a long-term customer. Why has it been come such a problem? What has been the catalyst to say like, oh, we gotta do something about this vaping. Dr. Andrew Berry: Exactly. So with success of companies, these first couple of companies comes, want from other companies in third parties to create more products so they can get a share of the market. So it is these, some of these new products mainly containing THC components. And usually black market, which means they label it as one certain product, but they actually just use the label. They print it illegally from other outside the United States and they put these third party products in it that you don't even know what's in the product. And a lot of them have some sort of THC components. But mainly that's part of the answer to your question. The other half is over about in July or August this year is a little long answer, but this is their important in this content. I'm from Wisconsin, so go figure. It all started, in Wisconsin, in July of this year. There was about six patients over a two month period that they just were wondering, they couldn't figure out their diagnosis. They are these young patients presenting to the hospital. Let's give you an example. I have the perfect example for you. July 7th, 18 year old who ran track, just graduated high school, presented at urgent care with breathing issues. She had an x-ray with some infiltrates. She was sent home with antibiotics. She never got better. She came back in a few days, a chest pain. She couldn't breathe. She had shallow to keep breathing. Give her oxygen and she actually became worse. She had been to the ICU, she became oxygen mask dependent, almost intubated. In the end there had 6 or 5 other cases like this, about six. And the doctors were confused, wondering what's going on. They frantically reviewed all the records and the only thing that the patients had in common was a history of vaping. They're all young. In Illinois, the neighboring state had similar issues also. And the first death ever reported from vaping ruling out all other causes with full vaping history and objective data was in August in Illinois. That's what triggered it all. Once you heard the word death in vaping, then every newspaper every day since August has had multiple stories as you probably are aware. Dr. Berry Pierre: Well, to the point where even when I started to do a little research for this discussion. I just type in the letter V and it already knew that I wanted to talk about vaping. It was as like Google is like, oh you must want to talk about vaping real quick. Fun facts about vaping, what to worry about vaping things, everything was like, oh wow. You right almost everyone's like writing an article now about just this how has become such a problem. And I know you touched a little bit on the fact that this introduction of the THC related products. Was that always a goal in mind? Did it start out with, was it always just to be nicotine but the THC folks, hold on we can maybe get in here as well. Dr. Andrew Berry: Exactly. So nicotine was the original goal. But you know, the culture of America in general over the last five years has been more open to the concept of THC for different recreational or medicinal uses. It's still not approved under federal law or I believe 21 States plus or minus okay it under state law for recreational or medicinal purposes. So obviously it's a free market. The United States is a free market. People jump on it. So they're thinking, wow, we've got these vapes going. Now what about introducing THC? And we know people will try to do it because it's another way to hide or kind of disclose their use of THC product. Dr. Berry Pierre: Where these THC products, where they also in this flavor contraption so it didn't even smell like THC? Dr. Andrew Berry: Yeah, that's a tough topic actually. The flavor ones are mainly the nicotine. But I think there's some of these third party companies, newer players in the market now that are trying to introduce some sort of flavor THC product to mass that traditional smell that you may smell as a third party viewer walking in public. Dr. Berry Pierre: So we're now all of a sudden the microscope is on, right? And now we're like, really going in on vaping and everything else. So of course, I'm going to be the devil's advocate. Is this an overreaction? So I think we should start there because I already know that there's someone listening who vapes and are like, no, my vaping is great. No, I'm never letting the vape go. So there's going to be someone there who's like, no, no, no, they're just over-exaggerating. Is this an over exaggeration or is this something we really should be worried about? Dr. Andrew Berry: Very good point. I think there is a small, small component of over exaggeration because you're so tuned into this now. So you see somebody in the hospital, you rule everything else and have easy scapegoat. Oh they vape a lot. They vape daily. It must be that causing their lung illness or maybe they got an infection. I had a patient who had a mycoplasma positive infection that told me quote, I vaped more than anyone else you'll ever know, end quote. So I'm like, okay, it must be that. But yeah, so there is actually, they actually made a formal definition of probable cases of vape or probable component or for sure objectively determined this diagnosis. And it confirmed case describes someone who has vaped in the past 90 days presenting with haziness or CDs in their chest scan and no signs of infection or other plausible diagnosis. So that's their CDC official definition. But I agree with you, this definitely going to be over reporting now and we need to find, people are frantically finding, when you do your article search over the last 24 hours, there's institutions and academic centers trying to do all these tests to figure out some sort of objective way of what is actually causing this. Is it the vape? I have a feeling it's actually the traditional Juul product may not be the issue. It's just these THC laden third party products that are being intertwined or switched over with not really a marketed and monitored products. So I think there's just something, the component of like spice, the drug, sometimes people take. It’s like a grab bag. You don't know what you're getting. Dr. Berry Pierre: Now, question. Especially because I know we've talked a little bit, I know we're getting on the Juul and now is Juul the same phrase when I think about iPod? There's a lot of MP3 players but then the standard we always think about is iPod. Is jewel the main maker of those devices or is there different ones? But Juul just happens to be the big dog? Dr. Andrew Berry: There's different ones. But Juul is the big dog. It's so big. In fact the two major tobacco companies, Altria and Philip Morris bought a huge stake in Juul last year. They paid like $12 billion for 35% stake. And Philip Morris did similar thing this year. However they were gonna merge. But because this whole new vaping issue, they called up their merger in last couple of weeks on Wall Street. Dr. Berry Pierre: So this topic… Dr. Andrew Berry: This is huge. This decision and this vaping, illnesses and deaths have actually changed stock market prices drastically to CEO, owes, have quit in the last two weeks. It's a very volatile market per se. Dr. Berry Pierre: So right now we don't really even have a direct causation of why it causes a problem. We know it causes lung damage, but we're not necessarily sure how it even does that? Dr. Andrew Berry: No, the best objective scientific as you know, something that you would be okay. You'd read in a journal, which I'm sure you do all the time, came out October 2nd in New England journal. So that's six days ago. It took 17 patients that have lung biopsies that have confirmed cases. So as of right now, today there's about 1,080 confirmed cases of vaping related illnesses or vaping related long illnesses and 19 confirmed deaths. So they took 17 patients. Most of them are men. Median average age is 35 and they all had a history of vaping and three quarters of them are with marijuana or cannabis oils and they actually got this stylogy from the lungs to see what's going on at a molecular level. And they just had a vague answer. There's no real one thing going on. There’s edema, there's a possibly organizing pneumonia and there's sloughing off of the epithelial cells at the lung level. But there's no one finding and they couldn't trace it to one product. That's the problem. The people in the CDC think it just might be one or two bad apples in the group, but that is the best like objective study today just came out in last couple of days. Dr. Berry Pierre: Lunch and Learn community, we'll definitely make sure we put a link to that journal article so that you can read that yourself and then you get educated. When you have something like that, when you have something that we don't even really know how it causes the problems, so of course again I'll be the patient, Dr. Berry, how do I avoid this if you can't even tell me how to avoid? Dr. Andrew Berry: I mean the easiest answer, you know these answers, stop. The CDC actually, they're not telling you, what they are telling you to stop by the polite way they're saying it is just stop in the meantime until we know what's going on. So a lot of these electronic cigarette users AKA vapers now, because it's cooler term. Successfully, studies have shown that they, it's been somewhat success for smokers that have weaned off as you probably you don't recommend it maybe, but you're okay with it. That's how a lot of physicians feel. Dr. Berry Pierre: Someone will say, well are they in totality? Are they better than regular cigarettes? Are you telling me Dr. Berry that I should go and smoke regular cigarettes again? Dr. Andrew Berry: Patients have said that. I had a patient today that literally said, I asked the history and I wanted to get more vaping questions and he says he was 50 pack your smoker. He's like, at least I don't vape, that's the bad thing for me. Dr. Berry Pierre: Unfortunately we know how we know how patients think. Because I already know I've got someone who's probably listening to this like, whoa, I think they're telling me that I should just go back to the regular cigarettes. (No). So are we saying that they should go back to your regular cigarettes until this vaping thing goes round? I wish this was a facetious question, but I'm 100% sure someone is thinking that. Dr. Andrew Berry: Correct. And I think the best answer to suffice all parties would be, if you're relying on this to wean off cigarettes and keep you off cigarettes, I'm not gonna adhere to or support this decision. But I would be okay with continued vaping products. However, I would highly caution against anything THC or cannabis space, vaping products, especially sold online or at small retail stores, not regulated with licensed state. But a lot of people are getting these online because no one, a lot of States don't have it. And then the demographic is the younger person, they're all online people trying to do stuff without under the radar. Dr. Berry Pierre: Right. Well we have their parents and guardians anyway, so what better place to a dude is than order it through the internet. So what tips would you give for now? I'm personally, I'm being educated, so what tips would you give a person in the health field that needs to understand the importance of this vaping topic and how to talk to their patients and I guess get them to quit or just getting them to stress to stay away from the THC related products, if anything? Dr. Andrew Berry: Very valid discussion point right there. I think you just tell them the facts. So if you tell them the facts, it's such a dynamic thing and tell them that you're staying on top of it. I feel like every physician should at least stay on top of this subject since it's so popular. I mean, I'm a GI physician and I've had cases consult cases that I think related to their THC laden vape products, after ruling out everything else. I have one or two in the last couple of months I feel. But I think telling them the truth and let them know, be honest and tell them that we don't know. So why would you want to take something that's such sketchy that you don't know what's actually happening currently? I think the best thing would be tell them they should be stay up to date and we should all just work on this together. Figure out what's actually causing the issues. Obviously you want to caution to decrease their usage overall. Dr. Berry Pierre: Especially the THC. I got question, is there any THC that I can do vaping? Is there any that have been federally stamped and given the okay or should I just be really staying away from all THC related products right now? Dr. Andrew Berry: Personally I would say there is small of them. But I think there is some states that have traditionally been selling the THC, especially the medical aspect. Physical stores that have been doing it for a while. And it's a tricky, tricky subject because it's not really regulated. So I wouldn't do it. I know the numbers are small. So you look at all the people that vape across the country in the world, you're saying, okay, only 19 deaths. Dr. Berry Pierre: Exactly and of course people always, well only have 19 people. Dr. Andrew Berry: Exactly. There's 19 people that got in a car accident today. But these are young healthy people. That's the thing. Okay. I mean these are people that shouldn't be getting sick, shouldn't in the ICU. There's gruesome photos online if you Google them of kids on ventilators, even one kid holding a sign that once you got extubated, I want to start a no vaping campaign. It went viral. Dr. Berry Pierre: This is definitely a topic. So I got to ask especially in your professional career, where you're at right now, where do you see vaping going from here? Because you're saying, you've got CEOs dropping out, you've got people losing a lot of money because of this, I don't want to call it a roadblock, but definitely there's bumps in the road. Where do you see vaping going? Dr. Andrew Berry: Well, on September 11th this year, President Trump wanted to ban vaping. Everybody's talk on banning flavored vapes because that's targeting those younger people. That’s the main target of their goal. Dr. Berry Pierre: Younger people aren't doing the non-flavored ones or is it just most of the time if it's flavored? Dr. Andrew Berry: I think they're getting a hook. I think a lot of them start on the flavor and then they advanced or progressed to the THC one. 80% of Juul sales are flavored, so the government is trying to hit the Juul market by stopping their flavored and they think if they can do that, they can stop the overall trend. My personal opinion from an economic standpoint is that this whole regulation, they'd probably will find some trace it to a couple companies, maybe a couple of chemicals, and that will wean out those companies and chemicals. And I think it actually may make Juul stronger because they don't have any THC products. It's all nicotine. So once they prove that their product is safe, I feel like a lot of kids will go back to it. (Wow). And it may get a little bit worse. That's my own opinion though. Dr. Berry Pierre: And I know especially because I know you talked about the almost three quarters of it being THC related. So we still got like that 25% that the nicotine related issues that are kind of still happening as well too. Dr. Andrew Berry: Correct or inhalational issues. I think some of these are having heat or caustic burns to the lung, sort of like a chemical pneumonitis. So that's on the differential. So the heat is, might be an effect also, but three quarters of them it is sure fire three quarters, I've checked all the numbers. Three quarters are usually men. Three quarters are usually younger under the age of 35 and three quarters. Usually THC is some sort of derivative. So those are the unhappy triad of things to avoid. Dr. Berry Pierre: Dr. Berry I wanted to thank you for really educating us and educating, especially me on a topic that is, like I said, as popular as it has been. Again, I felt like it just popped up out of nowhere. And then all of a sudden I see this crisis and almost every article that I read, I'm like, okay, alright. Write down my favorite again. I typed the vape again, nope. I typed the vape again, Nope. Read article. Everything just pop that in over. Thank you for helping enlightening us for such an important topic at hand that really does not seem to be, I guess by your words, does not seem to be going away anytime soon. Dr. Andrew Berry: No, I think it's just heating up literally. Dr. Berry Pierre: So before I let you go, I always love to really spotlight a guess. And like I said, I, I talked about it a little bit, especially in the beginning the fact that you got CV that's 24 pages. But tell people about just about yourself and where can they find you and what's next for you. Because like I said, I know you've got about a year and some change before you're out here, but clearly you're doing some things that I would love for our Lunch and Learn community, be able to follow it along. Tell us about your social media, any other ventures you may have coming up. Dr. Andrew Berry: I appreciate you letting me on. Basically, I'm not sure. Open mind. Just like the stock market, diversify your portfolio. You never know what opportunity you're going to get or were going to happen. Obviously, you never know. Obviously I'm set for medicine. I'd probably gonna do private practice, but academic twist to it. I like to publish on a lot of topics. A lot of my publications are not on the same topic. Dr. Berry Pierre: Yeah, which I know. I was like, wow, you were very wide range with it too. I know my fellows typically hyper focused, GI stuff, and I'm like, oh no, no, that's not even the case. Dr. Andrew Berry: Yeah. Some of the hot topics I like to hit because I think, well I talk about men to a syndrome when you're gonna see five this year. Might talk about vaping when you're gonna see five this hour. So I don't know, a social media, I like to follow a lot of things. An Instagram doctor pub med, and just something funny fitting. I guess Twitter I use sometimes mainly just to catch up on literature, but mainly Instagram. It's a great story. People want quick things as you do on your page. You've got a lot of links, a lot of quick things people are. It’s an inpatient market out there. Dr. Berry Pierre: Yeah. You right. Especially for attention. You gotta snatch their attention like, hey stop real quick. Dr. Andrew Berry: You've got to mix out audio, video, you gotta mix links. I don't know. You just got to keep it hot. No one wants to read about the same stuff. So that's the fact that you do all these podcasts and different people, different subjects keep the viewers on their toes, you know. Dr. Berry Pierre: Perfect. We would definitely appreciate your efforts. Remember Lunch and Learn community, all of his links will be in the show notes as well. Definitely follow him. I know you were talking about a YouTube page as well too. You have a YouTube as well? Dr. Andrew Berry: I have a YouTube page. I have a lecture that I gave a similar topics. I put it on YouTube. It's got video, audio. I got a little bit everything. You gotta hit all the markets. Dr. Berry Pierre: And remember Lunch and Learn community, if you want to watch videos, he's got stuff for you. If you want to just read, he's got a lot of stuff to read, I'm telling you. That's all I get. I'm not being facetious. There's a lot of stuff to read if you want to read. In fact, I was very interested and I have to get a read on the online symptom checker, I was like, oh, that's a topic. Dr. Andrew Berry: That's one of the topics I really like too. I have done some TV stuff with that and some of the vaping, it's a hot topic. Dr. Berry Pierre: What made you do that before I let you go? What made you like thinking, oh, you know what, we tackle there. Dr. Andrew Berry: Everybody, just like you and I know. Everyone, every day you're going to see somebody that comes and says, well, I looked it up online web MD, this and this, and we all have the same reaction internally, a little different externally. It just made me want to do it and I just checked the accuracy of these symptom checkers and let's just say it's not good. Dr. Berry Pierre: Not good. I love it. Here Lunch and learn community, please don't go to web MD and all these other places and click a couple of buttons and then come and tell me you have cancer. I don't want to hear it because web MD is always gonna sell high because they don't want to be the ones who say like, oh whoa, whoa we told them they had cancer and they didn't believe me. It was just a migraine. I guess that's all it was. Dr. Andrew Berry: Exactly. And now I guess right now a new study we could do, hopefully one of your viewers maybe wants to do this. You can check these injectors now for vaping. See if that's in a differential. Dr. Berry Pierre: It's so funny because as we've talked about it, I have not had one of my residents like throw it out in a different ritual. Dr. Andrew Berry: We can tell who's listening your podcast now so hopefully whoever does it definitely a listener. Dr. Berry Pierre: Exactly. So again Dr. Berry, thank you for really putting us on game. Putting the word out there. This is something that everyone needs to know and we'll make sure that happens. Such an important topic of vaping as it is. Dr. Andrew Berry: Thanks for having me. I appreciate your time.

I'll be honest with you... I have been working on my MINDSET for a few years now. I have been studying different strategies and exercises as I try to find out what works best for me. I was introduced to Stoicism a few weeks ago, and so far, so good. Obviously I'm not an expert on the matter and honestly can't even tell you much about it. But what I have learned so far I have already implemented. Today I discuss, Amor Fati or The Love Of Fate. Which basically means to not only be ok with the things that happen to us, but to love them and be better for them. As Ryan Holiday of The Daily Stoic explains to us... Marcus Aurelius would say: “A blazing fire makes flame and brightness out of everything that is thrown into it.” So get out there, take your challenges, love them, and turn them into fuel for your fire! --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/learn-for-2/message

It seems like everyone, their mother, and their cat is starting a podcast these days. That being said, finding good advice for starting a podcast isn’t easy. With so many gurus and courses, it can be overwhelming for newbie podcaster.   That’s why we sit down with Janice Chaka, host of The Traveling Introvert podcast, who shares the stories, humor, and advice she gained from 2 years as a successful podcaster.   Unlike most “newbie podcast advice” people, Janice focus in this episode is content. Janice shares how she continually finds ideas for her podcast, and why goals (as well as boundaries) are important to your life as a podcaster.   Major Topics in the Conversation How do you capture ideas for future episodes? Why the first 7 episodes are critical to your podcasts;s growth Why your first goals should NOT be vague like “get more followers” How to set realistic (aka SMART) goals as a podcaster Why you don’t need to be on every social media channel to succeed Why follower count isn’t everything Finding the right-sized podcast mentor for you   Special Moments in the Episode [2:43] How Janice captures new ideas for episodes [3:34] What makes Janice’s podcast a success? [6:20] What tips would you be a newbie podcaster? [6:44} Where are some places new podcasters can get help? [12:00] What is your business’ pain point right now?   About Our Guest Janice Chaka is a podcaster, introvert coach, mentor, speaker, and founder of The Career Introvert. She is also the organizer and host of the Podcast Virtual Summit and the Get Your Podcast Started Facebook group.   Learn more:   Email   FREE resources   Janice Chaka on LinkedIn   The Traveling Introvert Podcast   The Career Introvert website   The Career Introvert on Instagram   The Career Introvert on Twitter   The Career Introvert on Facebook   Get Your Podcast Started Virtual Summit   Get Your Podcast Started Virtual Summit Facebook group   Other Resources   Podcast Movement Anchor Libsyn iTunes Pat Flynn’s course WhatsApp       *Disclosure: Some of the links above are affiliate links, meaning, at no additional cost to you, I will earn a commission if you click through and make a purchase.     **Rich in Differences Podcast is not intended to diagnose, prescribe, treat, or cure any disease, physical or mental.   Any advice given on the Rich in Differences Podcast should not be construed as a prescription, a promise of benefits, claims of cures, or a guarantee of results to be achieved. The information, instruction or advice given by Rich in Differences Podcast is not intended to be a substitute for competent professional medical or psychological diagnosis and care. You should not discontinue or modify any medication presently being taken pursuant to medical advice without obtaining approval from your healthcare professional.   As a listener/reader, you must take complete responsibility for your own physical health and emotional well-being.   Transcript Below   [00:00:04.390] - Brooke Welcome to Rich In Differences with your host Brooke. Where we discover what works for you in life health and business. We are not legos and one size does not fit all. So, grab a good drink and come listen to different perspectives as we see what sticks for you.   [00:00:21.580] - Brooke Welcome to Rich In Differences and this is Brooke your host. I have with us Janice Chaka as our guest speaker for today. She's giving me the thumbs up because I actually got the name right.   [00:00:33.500] - Janice Yes you did. Nailed it as I said you would.   [00:00:37.060] - Brooke Thank you. Thank you. So Janice has a podcast called The Traveling Introvert. Could you tell us a little about your podcast. And how long you've been doing it.   [00:00:45.640] - Janice I have been doing it two years. Just I think it's time around now because something came up and I was like, oh it's it's been two years and a little bit about it. It started off, It's basically me ranting into the void for five minutes about whatever might have popped up in my life. Normally it's either HR related, travel related, or like running your business related. One of those three topics but super, simple, quick. People have said it's like having a quick coffee chat or like over the water cooler complain with me.   [00:01:16.990] - Brooke I could see that. Would you call yourself an introvert?   [00:01:19.420] - Janice Most definitely. I'm actually dreading the fact that when this comes out won't happened but I've got a conference coming up where normally I can go in and out of the conference and take breaks and they tell me "No actually we're going to livestream it. So no one can go anywhere."   [00:01:32.410] - Brooke  Oh no.   [00:01:36.300] - Janice Yeah.   [00:01:37.660] - Brooke Outside your comfort zone?   [00:01:38.970] - Janice  Oh yeah.   [00:01:43.330] - Brooke So is your podcast the same as it was when you first started or did it evolve over time?   [00:01:48.760] - Janice I like to say it has evolved as I have grown as a podcaster. However, yes we've got a tagline on the end that's slightly different and that's changed as I've pivoted in my business. I now get people who write in and ask me questions that I get to answer on the podcast. So that's changed. Apart from that it's still basically therapy and me venting into the void.   [00:02:14.830] - Brooke That's probably why so many people relate to it! I will be honest, that's what I'm looking forward too, I'm looking forward to getting people's responses and being able to answer their questions as well. So that must help with material and content creation?   [00:02:29.460] - Janice It does and then stuff just pops up every day and then your like, "oh I didn't see that coming". Well I'm gonna I'm going to talk about that. There's a podcast in that. Now my partners got to the point where they're like "Oh this thing happened. Your going to podcast about this arent you?"   [00:02:41.770] - Brooke Do you keep notes on your phone of all the different things that come up?   [00:02:45.970] - Janice Yeah normally. So I have a friend who I have an ongoing WhatsApp voice conversation with.   [00:02:51.480] - Brooke OK.   [00:02:52.130] - Janice So I will message her. Just because I'm better with audio, so it's saved and then I might make a note. I have a project management thing that I use and so I have a list of episodes. I could write "talk about so and so" and it will go in there. To answer your question, yes. Always have a place where you have notes because ideas and stuff come up randomly so you should have one single place where you always put the stuff.   [00:03:15.160] - Brooke I think mine's just notes on my phone, and it always happens and I'm driving too. So it's the safest time for me to be making notes in my phone.   [00:03:21.500] - Janice Voice memos, voice memos rule.   [00:03:26.860] - Brooke  Yes. So what would you say has been the number one reason your podcast has been a success.   [00:03:33.660] - Janice Wait my podcast is successful?   [00:03:35.220] - Brooke I would say so. Come on now, if you have people coming in with questions, I would say it's somewhat successful.   [00:03:43.240] - Janice Well I'll tell you what for the first three months I didn't tell anyone it existed, it was just for friends. Why is my podcast successful? I think it is because what you listen to is kind of what you get. It's also like when people coach with me I'm very much like if you want sunshine and flowers and unicorns. I'm not that person. Here's my podcast, this is what it sounds like, this is what you get. If you don't like it, now's not the time to sign up. I think it's been successful because a couple of things happened one I went to podcast movement and Glass box were running this competition and I won the competition and so I got free advertising for a week. That helped.   [00:04:20.320] - Brooke Oh wow that is awesome.   [00:04:23.030] - Janice Yeah thanks. Glass box.   [00:04:24.320] - Brooke Yeah.   [00:04:25.720] - Janice So now I use them religiously. I also think I've gotten better at telling people. I have a bag, a swag bag that I walk around with and so people are like well (the Traveling Introvert) that's an oxymoron. Introverts don't travel and then I have to go and school them and then we come back and listen to the podcast.   [00:04:41.800] - Brooke Aww nice, that's clever.   [00:04:47.430] - Janice Yeah I don't know, people seem to like it. Thank you people I appreciate you. It's real, it's just me and I think people get value from it.   [00:04:55.390] - Brooke Yeah, I could see that totally. So when we first talk you mentioned the concept of pod fade which is something I actually had never heard of. So I imagine if I've never heard of it others have probably not heard of it either. So would you care to describe what pod fade is?   [00:05:11.290] - Janice Oh I wish I had the dictionary definition. I'm sure Urban Dictionary has this somewhere but basically when your podcast starts you're all excited and you pump out a bunch of episodes and then life happens. And you slam into that like a truck. And you're scared to sort of get back on the horse again. And so there's maybe seven to ten episodes out there, something happens and then you stop podcasting and now you've taken a break. You're scared to go back because you think your listeners will be mad at you or you get overwhelmed or whatever it is.   [00:05:40.570] - Janice  And then you stop podcasting and there's some statistics with Anchor and with Libsyn. Anchor is a free site that you can use, I think over 64 percent stop after seven episodes and then with Libsyn I think it's a huge percentage. So if you go and look and I choose for example Itunes is which is the graveyard of podcasts you'll see a lot that are still new and noteworthy but haven't actually done anything for the past year.   [00:06:07.750] - Brooke That's weird.   [00:06:09.790] - Janice They say their working on that. So it might be fixed but it's been an ongoing process. Because people are like "I want to be on new and noteworthy" and the rest of us are like no it's not a thing.   [00:06:19.750] - Brooke Yeah ok. So if someone wanted to start a podcast what would you recommend in order for them to avoid the pod fade?   [00:06:29.290] - Janice  One thing? Because I could go on about this.   [00:06:31.600] - Brooke I mean you can give as many tips as you want, I am listening. Right here.   [00:06:39.280] - Janice Most people who start it might deal with their business, some people start as a hobby and that's that's awesome because then you're just rambling on about Game of Thrones or whatever it is that you're doing and your goal is much easier if you're doing it as a hobby. If you're doing it with regards to your business your business goals and your podcast goals should intersect in some way shape or form. Or why are you doing it? With those goals they should be a way to measure them. Make sure to measure. We all forget about the smart goal thing all of the sudden when we become podcasters "I want listeners" and that's not a goal. I mean it can be a goal but that shouldn't be what it is. Can we have someone email you and ask you a question? It doesn't have to be a huge audacious goal. It could just be someone's listened to me and I've provided value and so they've felt compelled enough to get out their phone and actually sent me an email like that takes more effort, that's more than a ticking like or follow that's actual commitment. Keep it whatever works with you, I was super stoked when someone emailed me. It's like someone actually listened to me and they e-mailed me from the other side of the world, because that's the other thing people forget anyone can listen to you anywhere. So we tend to make a podcast very focused in a specific geographical area and you don't have control of that. You can't be like only people in the US can listen to your stuff or only people in the UK.   [00:07:54.750] - Janice Yes to stop pod fade make sure that it fits in with your lifestyle not the other way around. Most people will find that their podcast take over their life with editing or social media and all that good stuff. So beforehand do an intro or test episode where you fiddle with everything and figure out what works. Figure out: how you want your sound to be, whether you want music in between, jingles, intros, outros, how long all of that takes, how long the editing, takes how long your social media takes, and then you'll know exactly how long each episode is gonna take you and then you look back at your life and your calendar and your like. Uhh. And don't do that "I'm gonna make it work" thing because that doesn't leave room for error, children, hurricanes, life, getting a new job because that sucks you up for 90 days too.   [00:08:37.840] - Janice And the systems and workflows write down everything that you do. It can change over time. But when you're recording, OK I have to switch this on, this toggle has to be this setting, I need to check all of these things to make sure it all works. When you have it all written down there's less decision making for you to do and less time for your brain to be like. I don't know. I'm confused. So workflows systems automate as much as you can. Don't go and try and be on every single social media platform. Pick one, do that for six months and get it down, get it automated get a system then move on to the next one. We have enough hats on as it is as podcasters. But the main thing is the goals. Because if those two don't work and then you come back six months I was like Well I don't have 18 million followers how do I get more followers. And it's not necessarily the amount of followers you have it's how engaged they are and how invested they feel in the podcast.   [00:09:27.490] - Brooke All right then that was a lot. I liked all of that. I'm going to have to go back and write all these down when my microphone can't pick it up. All right. So if someone wanted to start a podcast where would you recommend they start?   [00:09:45.340] - Janice All right so there's two schools of thought here. Obviously I'm going to say you should come and join my podcast group. That is what I should say.   [00:09:53.080] - Brooke Yeah.   [00:09:53.200] - Janice That's the "get your podcast started" group on Facebook and now on Facebook you can personalize it so you literally just look for "get your podcast started" groups and it will magically appear. A lot of people go with Pat Flynn because he is the O.G. of podcasting and he has a course and it's all free and it's all him. But he also has a huge team behind him, and production, and money. Not everyone has that luxury. Try and go with someone who is in line with what you're doing or has done what you've done and it's just a little bit ahead of you. Not like all the way up ahead of you so they're making the same mistakes that you have made and it's in recent memory rather than oh I did this thing like five years ago when I talked to the president of X Y and Z.   [00:10:32.150] - Brooke I like that. Then it's a great piece of advice. Getting someone who's just a little ahead of you. So they do remember what you're going through because sometimes I do feel like a lot of people who are veterans do forget. And then they have great advice but the advice is for where they're at. It's not for where a new person is at and I feel like that's easily forgotten sometimes. What is the one thing you wish you knew when you first started running a business?   [00:11:00.830] - Janice I suppose to be prepared for this and I thought about it and there's so many things. The biggest, biggest, biggest thing and I'm not really a huge mindset believer but we go through our lives starting at school, and we get told what to do. WeSome of us go through university, we get told what to do. We have a job, we get told what to do. But if you're a business owner yes you have clients who tell you what to do. But you actually have the power to tell them no. No that's not how that works. And we forget this and we feel beholden to the paycheck the money that oh they're gonna ruin my reputation and all these other things but I wish that earlier on in my business career in my life I realized that I could push back and I could say no. And it's almost a self worth thing. Because you're scared to say no to the money, you're normally in such a stage where you want the money and so you say yes to everything and that ruins you quicker than anything else because then you're not happy when you're working and that's one of the things you want to be. I mean you don't want to be over the moon happy but you want to be okay working. So when becoming your own boss and treating your business like a business remember: you are the CEO, you're the strategist behind your business.   [00:12:03.800] - Brooke Absolutely. So what is one fear or thought that keeps coming up for you as a business owner?   [00:12:09.050] - Janice We kind of talked about this earlier, my newsletter. Not my zone of genius. I have a list. Technically I have a list for my podcast as well and that's a whole other thing. I know kind of what I want to write but part of me is like how personal do I want to get? Because I don't, I'm a very private human being. But people keep going on about the no trust thing it's like how much is too much and how much is too little? How often to write. Because I committed to messaging every Thursday and I committed to doing a rolling stock of different topics but right now I'm really focusing on this one topic. So all I want to do is write about this one topic. Do you guys mind? So I'm getting feedback because sometimes as often as you might be asked hey click this link or this link some people just read the email and don't respond to you or give you feedback. And as business owners we want to get better and we want to do stuff that works for you. But if you don't tell us and communicate with us we're not gonna do it. So every time I get a feedback form from any company that they specifically like ask "hey Janice we want you to give feedback". I will do it because that's what I would want as a business owner.   [00:13:10.400] - Brooke Awesome. Thank you. So how can people work with you these days?   [00:13:14.880] - Janice So having said that email is my choice communication. People message me on Facebook and I'm like "I'm not on here." I even have a message on my Facebook page if you message it says "Hi I'm out helping other introverts, I check this maybe twice a day, email me." Email me at: Janice@thecareerintrovert.com you can find me at thecareerintrovert.com,  Facebook: careerintrovert, LinkedIn: Janicethecareerintrovert anything careerintrovert appart from like Snapchat, I'm there. The best way to contact me is email though and if you want to work with me this is what I do. I help people launch their podcast, less overwhelmed with goals, with systems workflows. Because one thing about podcasting is you want to be consistent and the only way not the only way but my way of doing that. There's many ways to do. The thing is to have systems and workflows in place and obviously record in advance so you have a batch of stuff so that you can still live your life and it fits in with your lifestyle. I had someone ask in my group the other day "why are your podcast episodes so short" and I was like "because it fits in with my personality which is short and sweet." It fits in with my lifestyle. I travel a lot so I need to batch record and I'm going to do that like five minutes here five minutes there and then be done with it. I didn't want to spend a lot of time editing there were lists of things I didn't want to do. So that's how my podcast is the way it is. So I help you with all that I help you with workflows, I help you with systems, I help you with your goals and making sure they're in line with your business and your podcast and all that good stuff. That's pretty much it, amplify your voice. Mainly introverts but I also work with extroverts because I like people.   [00:14:52.820] - Brooke I was going to ask you where can people follow you. But you kind of answered all that in the first question as well. I would probably say because your a podcaster the best way to kind of get to know you and follow your work is probably through your podcast.   [00:15:04.020] - Janice Oh yeah.   [00:15:04.900] - Brooke So all of this information is going to be below in the show notes: where to find her, how you can work with her and all of that. You don't have to go find your pen and paper right now. I believe that is it Miss Janice, I think we answered all the questions I have written down here.   [00:15:18.530] - Janice Thank you.   [00:15:19.530] - Brooke All right Pop Tarts that is all for this week. Remember send in your thoughts, your feedback, your ideas, your questions and your drink of choice whether it be alcoholic or nonalcoholic. And be sure to send in the recipes so you can be featured on the show. And don't forget to subscribe. So you can be around for when I feature you on the show and to get some good content. Here's to another week. Cheers.  

Very introductory, just seeing if I can make it work to be completely honest!`Appreciate your patience, feel free to give it a whirl and provide some feedback! Obviously I'm not a professional podcaster so this will be a fun learning experience that's for sure! Much love

Okay. I am seriously going to skip the intro. Yes, it's another episode, but I'm choosing to skip, the intro because I'm dying right now. It is literally 2:00 in the morning and I just spent the past hour reading through this book that I just got a couple of weeks ago and finally picked it up tonight, which was a bad idea to pick it up at midnight pretty much, or I guess one o'clock but I'm dying right now. I'm like, holy cow. I don't know if it's just because it's late, but I got to tell you about it. So here's the deal. I know how frustrating it is as an entrepreneur to waste countless hours sifting through, want to be experts who've never actually helped me in the end. Then to learn years later that there was an expert who really could help me a hundred times faster than learning it on my own. I have created this podcast to save you time and money while taking you on a journey with me as I learned from an interview, real experts who can actually help you grow your business. My name is Coulton Woods, and you're listening to Learning From The Experts. What's going on guys. So, backstory. I went to Jeff Walker's product launch formula event, right. And as we were sitting there, a few rows back from the front, we were just paying attention, watching the event, hanging out me and Steve trying to figure out how everything's going with them, how they're running it. And Pretty Soon Jeff Walker has us turn around and talk to people around us and get to know them and what they're doing. Well, it turns out that Stephen starts talking to the guy in front of us and his name is Jack Turk. And if you know who Jack Turk is, you'll know exactly where I'm going with this. But, his name is Jack Turk. I actually didn't know who he was at all. He writes for, I don't know if I can even really say who he ghost writes for, but he's, he's like a legend, a legendary ghost writer. He ghost writed for a really big person that I probably can't even name, I don't even know if it's legal or not, but he is very huge in the online marketing space. Anyway, so we got talking to him and he's like, yeah, I ghost wrote all these books, all this sales copy, all of these different offers, you name it, for this one really huge person. So that kind of intrigued us a bit and he's like, yeah, I totally know exactly what you do Stephen. Like, I know your industry and what you teach so well, cause I've literally written books on it myself for other people. And if you don't know what a ghost writer is, it's a writer for a certain individual. Like if Steven got somebody to write a book for him, but not giving that person the credit for the book, that would be a ghost writer. So essentially they'll come in and say, Hey, I know your stuff, or give me access to all your stuff. I will write a book on your stuff. That will sound exactly like it's coming from you. So it's almost like they wrote their own book, but somebody just kind of helped put it together for them and write it. So he's a ghost writer and he was like, Hey, I'd love to write some stuff for you. So that was pretty awesome actually, especially since he's been writing for some really huge people, which is crazy. But anyway, so we're sitting in an event and he actually had his own book, on the chair below him. And before we even met him and talked to him, I saw sitting on the ground and I was like, that actually looks like a book that I would really like. So I told a few of them, like, I actually took a picture of it, literally took a picture of it like right there beneath this chair so that I could remember like, you know, look it up on Google or Amazon and buy it and get it shipped to my house so I could check it out. It was funny. I was like telling Steve, dude, like I want that book. And he's like, no way. I saw it too. Now I want it as well. So we totally bought a couple of copies for us. And also it was kind of just to say that to the guy like, hey, we bought a couple of copies of your book. It looked pretty interesting so we thought we'd buy a couple. And he's like, oh sweet, I'm glad. It's hope you guys really enjoy it. So I've had it sitting on my desk for the past couple of weeks since the event, cause literally the day you get back from the event, Amazon's got it at your door. So it's pretty quick stuff. Right, man, anyway, I could feel a side rant coming on, but I'm not going to go there. So it's been sitting on my desk for a couple of weeks and I finally picked it up tonight and I was kind of getting tired and I was like, I'll probably go to bed here soon. It is one o'clock in the morning. And I was like, you know, I'm going to look at that real quick and kind of see what it's about. And I literally opened it up and the first couple pages I started just reading through it and I was like, what the, this is freaking gold. This is like everything that I've seen even Russell and Steve Teaching things, but in copy, just laid out. It's super easy to go through and read and get what you need from it. So pretty soon I realize I'm on like page 90, there's only like 123 pages in the whole book. So it's not very much, but I'm on like page 90 and I'm like, holy cow, this is just straight gold. Obviously I'm kind of skimming through some of it and then reading pretty good on heavily on some parts of it, but I'm just diving in right now. I cannot believe how much is given in here. And I can tell that he's been writing for some really huge people by the way, that he literally has written this and how easy it is to just see it. But then also like the straight up just golden nuggets on every freaking page. If you guys are writing anything with sales copy, if you guys are writing ads for any kind of ad platform, it doesn't matter, anything on your website. literally, if you're creating mailers, I remember I saw something in there about creating or writing an actual Mailer, sales copy for the mailer, the mailer itself. Hopefully I'm saying that right. It is two o'clock in the morning. So if I slur my words, I'm sorry. So if you guys do any kind of writing for sales on any level of that, you need to get this book, you need to figure out who this guy is. I'll drop you the headline of the book cause I know you're probably dying. I hope you're dying because you should go buy it right now. In fact, let me actually pull it up on Amazon. I want to see how much it is so you can even know how much it's going to cost you on Amazon. let's see here, it's called the "101 fast, good cheap hacks to writing a killer sales letter" it's pretty awesome. I can't, I just can't believe it's $14.95 paper back and you get it in two days, which is awesome. So if you guys write any kind of copy, if you write anything on websites, if you do any kind of, even just social media posting, whatever it may be, I cannot believe how easily this is laid out. I mean it's 101 like hacks to writing a killer sales letter and it literally is on this page it's hack number seven, you know, and then the title of it, it's like hack number seven, make it so good It hurts. And he talks a lot about offers in here and different parts of the offer and the sales copy with it. Oh Man. Anyway, I know I could probably go on forever just talking about, not even really talking about what it say it says, but okay, check this out. Here's one, hack number 45, use the right words and headlines. This is really interesting. He says, make sure your copy uses the top 10 money making words you should use in your headlines, John Capitals, hopefully I said that right, who was head of the third largest AD agency in the US for 40 years. If that doesn't say something, I don't know What doesn't, the most commonly used words in 100 successful headlines. Here's what he found. You want to use the word "you". Okay. Okay. So in 100 successful headlines, here are the words, the top, words used in those headlines. Man. Hopefully that makes sense. So I'll list off the top 10 words used in those headlines. So the word "you" was used 31 times the word "your" was, so "why", "oh", "you" "are" "your" was views a 14 times how 12 times and new 10 times who? Eight times money, six times now, four times people, four times want four times. And why four times. I never would have guessed that you your how new who money now people was or Wasn’t. And why would be the top 10 money making words that you should be using in your headline? That almost sounds too simple stupid to be true, but it actually makes sense when you look at it. So the most common words of course were you and your, it should be obvious, when you're writing to sell. The biggest mistake most often made is to focus on we and I. I Looked through the Valpak ads you get in the mail, how many times do you see ads? They only tell their story. Do you care? Me Neither. Using the right words is critical to making a sales letter do their job. I saw that one. It was like what? That's so stupid, simple and easy, but it makes so much sense. Like how many people were writing like, oh, we have 30 years of experience in business. Who the freak cares, they want to know about how you are going to help them, not the fact that you have all this great, awesome, cool experience stuff like no, instead of saying that, twists around and say something about how your experience is going to get them what they want anyway. So I know I've been going on this longer than I even expected to, but I just wanted to take a minute and drop this real quick. I don't even know how I didn't hear about this book before. It's probably super underrated. I don't even know when it was released. That would actually probably be a good, I don't think it would be it on Amazon, but that might be a good indication. Oh, Independently published November 12th, 2018. Oh well that makes sense. It just barely came out. This thing is going to go huge and you guys want to know about it right now. So I would say hurry up and get your copy, I wonder if he has a funnel for it, he's got to have a funnel. Anyway, if you find a funnel for it, let me know cause I'm totally going to go through here and yeah, figure out what he's doing. I'm going to find everything I can about him because every headline that he has written, I'm totally going to be getting ideas from and modeling. So that's just kind of what I wanted to drop on you guys today. Hopefully that is something that you guys like and something you want to hear. If you're into sales at all, if you're in anything business related, you should like that. If you have somebody that does your marketing for you in house than I would 100% say, get this book, have them go through it, use it. Often. I can already tell this is going to be like a Bible for sells copy. Anyway, that’s what I have for you tonight. I will let you go and I'm going to go to bed. Well, hopefully here soon. Are you looking to jumpstart your business by learning or getting help from the real experts? Go to learning from the experts.com to find preapproved experts that I've handpicked for you. Please don't forget to let me know how I'm doing by subscribing, rating, and leaving feedback.  

Wow, almost two months! I'm completely slacking. Obviously I'm not on any set schedule, I only want to release these whenever I have something fun to do them on. On that note, please follow the social media accounts to keep up to date!  Thanks for the support! Spread the word! Instagram: @hangthedjpodcast Twitter: @hangthedjpod Email: hangthedjpodcast@gmail.com

This is our end-of-season-two-quiz-episode-extravaganza! Enjoy us failing to recognize even the most obvious tracks. Marvel at our incompetence when attributing composers to albums. Bask in our shame when we mix up things that have never been mistaken for each other before! Obviously I'm not gonna mention what we are playing in this episode since that would take all the fun from those of you who would like to quiz along. Enjoy! download

Announcer:                      00:01                   You're listening to Trade Show Live! On the Road featuring conversations with the people who bring trade shows to life, including attendees, exhibitors, sponsors, and trade show industry thought leaders. We attend trade shows around the country in a wide variety of industries from healthcare to consumer products and everything in between. The podcast is a production of The Trade Show Manager, a trade show, consulting firm, and now let's go on the road with Trade Show Live!. Janet:                                00:29                   Welcome to Trade Show Live! On the Road. This podcast is a production of The Trade Show Manager and features an in depth look at the people, companies, and organizations that bring trade shows to life. In January 2019, we're going to CES the Consumer Electronics Show with an amazing group of startups and business leaders will be in Eureka Park and displaying some of the best new ideas coming from the startup community in North Carolina. One of our featured guests is sponsoring a couple of scholarships for members of our North Carolina Startup pavilion is the team from NC IDEA. NC IDEA empowers entrepreneurs to reach their full potential by offering support when they need it most. With me on the podcast is the president and CEO of NC IDEA. Thom, welcome Thom. Thom:                               01:18                   Thank you, Janet. It's a real pleasure to be here with you. Janet:                                01:21                   You have had an entrepreneurial mindset for many, many years. Thom:                               01:27                   Yes, I have. I like to say tongue in cheek. I spent the first 20 years of my career starting and growing companies and then I've spent the last 15 years helping others acquire that gene mutation. So that has really given me quite a career of advantage and great pleasure, because it really is a privilege to do the work that we do. Janet:                                01:50                   You know, you make me wonder about the age old question. Is it nature or nurture? Can you make an entrepreneur or are you born with that mindset? Thom:                               02:01                   yeah. I, I appreciate this question. I love debunking it every chance I get because I think it's an insidious inference. That you have to be born with entrepreneurial DNA, so to speak. it's my firm belief that we're all hardwired to be entrepreneurial, but what isn't equally distributed are the resources, the encouragement, the environment, the assets to realize or accentuate or pronounce that innate ability that we all have now, and for some people it's just they just never get a chance to express it, but if you give them that opportunity, that encouragement, that support, everybody's got the potential to be quite entrepreneurial. Janet:                                02:46                   I think of it a very essentially is the ability to be creative and to problem solve. And sometimes that's to make money for yourself. Sometimes that's to make money for your business and sometimes it's to figure out what to do when you burn the cake. Thom:                               03:02                   It's a way of thinking. We refer to the vernacular that's very common now is calling it the mindset, right? We define that as the underlying beliefs and assumptions that drive successful behavior. So what is it intrinsically that motivates you, that drives your locus of control to say, I'm dissatisfied with my current state of existence. I want something better. I want to be something better. And I can express that I can achieve that goal by providing value to others and that value is manifest in either a product or a service or a performance that I do for, you know, an existing employer. But somehow I bring value to others and for that, you know, I have economic stability in my life. And then all the rest is a question of scale. So you can do that for more people in, at a higher scale than your economic reward for that is greater. But that's the essence of really what drives what we do. Janet:                                04:04                   Thom, I'm dying to ask you this question. It's about the hustle mentality and there's a lot of really strong debate on both sides going on online between those Internet entrepreneurs that have gone out there and said, hustle, hustle, hustle, work seven days a week, put it all in. And then ultimately you're going to get rich. And let's face it, the get rich part is going to be probably a single digit percentage of folks out there. The "make a good life, make a good living" part is much greater. But the hustle mentality that you, you are not a good entrepreneur if you're not working, you know, 16 hours a day, seven days a week. Thom:                               04:47                   Yeah. I think that's again, one of those wonderful myths or cliches. Probably a better way to state it, of entrepreneurship, right? That you have to deplete yourself and sacrifice sleep and relationships and everything else in furtherance of your entrepreneurial pursuit. To me that's just silly, right? A ton of effort without direction is meaningless. There are certainly times when you're going to have to burn the candle on both ends, right? Product launch, you know, large, large event. You got to prep for the CES show for example. But yeah, you're going to have to have a couple of weekends who are going to go sleep deprived and you got to burn the midnight oil. But if you are doing that as a sustaining a status quo without understanding why, then you should really be questioning what you're doing. And I think the smarter play or, or let's just say that more balanced play is if you get to some sort of self defined equilibrium, you know, I need to financially achieve x, Y, or Z, or I need to have a company that allows me to control or the flexibility to work when I choose to work, whatever that is, that's different for different people, right? Thom:                               06:05                   But if you can "know thyself," so to speak and work a plan that achieves that, then I think you've accomplished something. And if that means you can do that 20 hours a week, you know, God bless you, that's great. If you have to do 60 hours a week to attain that, well, and that's what you have to do. And then at some point you need to decide does that work for you? But, but understand why it is you're doing what you're doing. I didn't give you the red meat answer to that. Thom:                               06:34                   Really what it says. I think it's just a stupid argument and people really delude themselves on, and I've seen this where people are unsuccessful and then they throw their hands up in the air and go, how can I be unsuccessful? "I've been working 16 hours a day." If you've been doing 16 hours a day of the wrong stuff, it doesn't matter that you're doing 16 hours a day. If you were doing six hours a day of the right things to do, you might be wildly successful. Right? So this notion that I have to suffer for my craft, that's part of the process. That's just, again, that's movies, this the stuff of lore and legend, not reality, Janet:                                07:14                   Right. Well, and we all get sold a bill of goods because what we're looking at is the online influencers, public persona. We have no idea what happens when he gets home to talk to the wife or the kids and a lot of the other things. We're only seeing the story that is the way they choose to portray. Thom:                               07:36                   It's crafted. Everybody has a perfect life on Instagram and Facebook, Speaker 2:                        07:40                   Entrepreneurial mindset. I think I've had it my whole life. I just never quite saw how to put it into action and I understand that part of what NC IDEA is doing is actually creating facilitators to help people think through that process. Thom:                               07:59                   We are absolutely helping facilitators and others help other people get that orientation towards action. You know, we find, and I have found doing the work I do literally all over the world in services, some great organizations like the World Economic Forum, not to mention Kaufman and others that people can get to that exciting excitement stage. Like I've got the idea or I've got a notion of an opportunity, you know, I get this antsiness like I really want to do something about it and that's where it stops, right? Because they get home and the kids are driving them crazy and there's a good movie starting tonight or I jump on facebook and three hours later, you know, I'm not getting anything done. So we really want to help people understand that it's a bit of a self awareness. When am I failing to do anything beyond just getting excited? Because there again, right? Excitement and energy without action is a very little value. Thom:                               09:08                   The law of diminishing returns, a accelerates very quickly there. So what we try to do is say, you know, recognize that in yourself when you're at that stage and say, okay, for those that can then you know, and maybe it could be the epiphany of, oh, this is going to be harder than I thought and I'm not going to do it. Then great. At least you can stop deluding yourself that, you know, "I coulda been somebody". Obviously I'm being tongue in cheek with that, but, but more to the, our hope is that people will go, oh, okay, now I understand. I, I have to now do small tests, right? I have to see, okay, how viable is this idea and how do I start getting some feedback and how do I just for me and the team here is probably tired of hearing me say it. Thom:                               09:53                   I call it. It's a game of forward momentum entrepreneurship. Unfortunately in public it looks like these giant strides, right? It went huge. I sold it and made a ton of money. In reality, it's really more about just moving forward. Some days you're going to move forward by an inch. Some days it's going to be by a mile, right? But as long as you're moving forward, you have forward momentum. You're, you're doing all right and you should be happy with yourself that you're doing all right because that will, as long as you're moving forward, you'll have something to react to that you didn't have to react to yesterday because the market will tell you something, potential customers, we're telling you something. Suppliers will tell you something. Employer employees will tell you something. You'll be learning and then making decisions that are informed by the goal at the end, Janet:                                10:43                   You're doing such a great job with myth busting. I want to throw another one at you and that is one of the things that I have heard is your business, your entrepreneurial ideas never going anywhere unless you are 100 percent all in in essence, basically saying, if you haven't saved up enough money to quit your job, you know too bad, you're not going to be a success. If you're not all-in, what do you think about that? Thom:                               11:11                   I think that this notion that you have to be all-in in order to be successful is nuanced and again, I think it distracts from more relevant questions, but I'll. I'll bite and give you a reaction to it. It's this notion, right? When an explorer hits the foreign shore, they burn their boats because they know now going back is not an option and the theory is that that somehow puts you in this mindset that you'll work harder, you'll work longer. It feeds this narrative of the suffering entrepreneur and that's why I'm not very keen on this notion. That being said, there is plenty of data that says, Hey, if you're still keeping your day job right, which is presumably 45 hours a week and you're trying this other thing, you probably don't have enough hours in the day to apply to your entrepreneurial startup. That's where this starts, this are you all in or not. Thom:                               12:13                   That's when the narrative starts becoming way more nuanced. That means maybe your company is going to grow slower than it might otherwise if you were full time, 50 hours a week on it, you know, like you are at your job and those, those aren't wrong or right answers. Those are just certain realities of time utilization and applying it towards things that need to get done. And so when people try to cast this notion like, well, we can't like that because you haven't quit your job to do this yet. Would just say statistically I have a bias against potential the potential for that from a pay standpoint. But if you can show me how, what time you can apply to it is adequate for the progression, the forward momentum, as I alluded to earlier for the business, then I'm fine with that. Janet:                                13:05                   All right, that makes sense. I'd love for you to compare and contrast the US entrepreneurial mindset or ecosystem with your experience in the World Economic Forum as you've worked with, I assume, countries around the world. What's different and what's the same? Thom:                               13:25                   Thank you. That's an interesting question. I have worked with and for NGOs, universities, foreign governments, and quite literally, I like it because of the alliteration, but literally from Brazil to Bangladesh and have seen every slice of entrepreneurial humanity that the world has to offer. And there's a couple of observations I have from this first and foremost, and this goes into public perception and myth busting right? I think in the US there's this notion that we are the world leader in entrepreneurship. And again, spoiler alert, we're not. What has been the kind of the, American secret of entrepreneurship that is been unleashed around the world and the rest of the world is awakening to what had been historically a US competitive advantage. So thank Israel, for example. Israel on multiple ways that you might measure is probably the world leader right now in entrepreneurship and early stage activities. Thom:                               14:31                   They've put billions of dollars into funding startup early stage type of things. They've invested heavily in technology transfer and commercialization from universities. They had great corporate partnerships. They reach internationally, they go anywhere in the world where if there's a piece of technology that advances something. So there's that reality of our observation. The other observation I've had is I'm the kind of learning and teaching front of entrepreneurship. In the US, what dominates a lot of curricular or training programs or on entrepreneurship or what I refer to loosely as the silicon valley narrative, which is a plan and pitch type of entrepreneurship curriculum, namely I have to come up with a big idea. I write a plan around it. I shopped that plan to some folks to fund it. I grow something very quickly and I exit and you've heard that a thousand times over, right? Thom:                               15:29                   That dominates, especially in academia, in higher ed. That dominates many of the programs. And that's really, I think it's problematic in a couple of ways. First of all, and most importantly it presupposes or it begins with an individual that has already identified as being entrepreneurial. So like if I'm a student now I'm opting in to major in entrepreneurship. As silly as that is of a notion I've already self selected. Right? So I've been activated. So what higher ed and academia is missing is that broader, much larger swath of the population that has entrepreneurial potential. They just haven't been activated yet. They haven't been exposed to something that flips that switch, so to speak, and that's the difference internationally. So there. Then I use the example of the Ice House curriculum that I we talked about earlier when we were deploying that curriculum at my time in Kauffman. We were deploying it in the US and we're deploying it internationally and I'm happy to say that that program is actually being taught on five continents right now and it's been translated into other languages like Spanish and Portuguese. And what the rest of the world has understood is that if you go earlier stage and you focus on the mindset, we can mobilize more people working towards something entrepreneurial and whereas nobody can predict, you know, the winners and losers. It's still is a numbers game and if you can fill the top of the funnel, you know much faster with more numbers, you're going to have better outcomes on the bottom and adoption of that program. And, and deployment of that program. Is actually growing faster outside the US than it is inside the US. Janet:                                17:19                   Now Your Ice House entrepreneurship program, you are talking to community colleges, four year universities, small business centers. I contend you're in the wrong place. You need to be in elementary school. Thom:                               17:31                   Well, we're certainly already in a middle schools and high schools. So you're absolutely right. You know, and this is the work of Ted Dinter Smith and Tony Wagner and others that are working on kind of a innovation narrative much earlier and there's been studies on this too, right? We beat creativity out of kids going through the, you know, the public school and public education process. So I couldn't agree with you more, you know, and, and even in a very unsophisticated way, I just look at my own kids. I have three children and they're adults now, but they were all entrepreneurs growing up because they've lived in a house with a crazy dad who started and sold a company every three to five years. And you know, for them that was kind of the water that they swam in. So, you know, all three of them graduating college. No student debt, you know, my son just bought his first starter home, didn't need me to co-sign. That's because they had been starting and growing companies and my, my youngest daughter was I think started the earliest at nine, but they all were running businesses and they just saw entrepreneurship as a way to get what you want from life, right. That we have to make a more common experience for as many people as possible. Janet:                                18:48                   Right. Well, I remember seeing a story in social media about the young man who had the hot dog stand and somebody called to complain about him and for once government did the right thing. They worked with this kid to get a health license. They got him the things that he needed to make sure he was testing the heat of the water, and they made him a more successful entrepreneur than shutting him down. And when I hear about people calling the cops on lemonade stands, I'm like 'Really?' that's not in the right mindset. Thom:                               19:22                   Wouldn't it be wonderful if there were more of those types of examples? There was one of the stories I'm most enamored with I had the good fortune several years ago to meet the founders of a company called Missouri Star Quilt Company in the Missouri Star Quilt Company is in Hamilton, Missouri, a population I think like 2,400. So this is small town USA, you know, anywhere in the country, the abandoned main street. From what I understand it is the birthplace of JC Penney, long since gone. And there was this family, it was a family with seven children that really out of a notion to give their mother or something to do or their mother, Jenny Doan was very much into quilting. Quilting was her passion, her hobby. So they bought. I'm giving you the very abbreviated story. There's tons of videos on this and I encourage you highly to google it, but they basically bought her a piece of equipment so that she could start doing some quilting activity. Thom:                               20:29                   And they thought, well, you know, maybe we could put a little small business around this, what we would call a side hustle today. Right? And then they use tools that are out there, they taught themselves things like youtube as a broadcast channel. And what can we do? Jenny has very, the camera just loves her. She's got this just genial style to her teaching. Quilting comes natural to her and pretty soon, you know, they had 500 followers. They had 5,000, they had 50,000. They now have followers on their channels that are seven figures in the. Fast forward to the present. Missouri Star Quilt Company is a very large company. It's the largest employer within a 50 mile radius. They processed 2,000 orders a day, right? And this is supplying the quilting industry. This isn't an APP that whatever cracks your DNA for you. this isn't a biotech life science, you know, bionic, you know, artificial limbs, better solar powered. Thom:                               21:32                   This is quilting fabric and patterns and colors. And, and, and to say nothing of how they've revitalized the whole downtown. So the company is pretty much bought up all of main street and it's a destination. It's a Disneyland for quilters and they have B&B's. Now there they have multiple themed storefronts, so there's seven or eight, so they have one Missouri Star Quilt Company and it's all things fourth of July, they have one that's all things Halloween. One thing that's all things Christmas and it's a destination and it's revitalized this town and it's not high tech and any of that stuff. Right? That just demonstrates that the potential to transform especially large parts of our rural communities that it becomes so economically disenfranchised. Entrepreneurship has the power to turn that around. Thom:                               22:26                   I love this story so much because it is the power of a few people building something amazing. And recently Raleigh has been in a situation where we've been competing to bring a very, very large presence, both apple and Amazon to our town. And I see that as kind of the exact opposite, but I'm not sure that the upside of something that large is very good. Thom:                               22:56                   So, you know, I'd like to say tongue in cheek that we won both hq two and the apple by not winning. And I think that's true for a lot of the communities. We're, we have the good fortune in the triangle here that we are flush with resources, so we probably could have afforded or accommodated whatever exorbitant financial incentives package was given to them, but certainly many of the communities, that pitched for these opportunities could ill afford it and if they had won, it would have been financially catastrophic. Beyond that, what's more perverse to that process than trying to bribe large established companies that have the kind of cash reservoirs at both of those companies have, beyond that, what's perverse about that is the missed opportunity to think if we have the collective political will and are willing to allocate the resources we going to throw at these companies, why don't we invest in ourselves? Speaker 3:                        24:02                   Why can't we see a way forward to, to draft policy and programs that put money into economic gardening so that we plant the seeds and build the next Amazon, the next 10. Amazon's as opposed to trying to buy them or bribe them. Right? This is a challenge. This, this smokestack chasing as an economic development practice, needs to die a swift and ugly death because it is flawed in its thinking. If you want to see an example of how that might look, you only have to look to my home state or at least used to be home state because now I'm proudly as citizen of North Carolina, but Ohio passed several years ago. This initiative called the third frontier initiative and it passed by voters. It was a referendum that went to the ballot and it passed twice. So there was the initial $900MM allocation and then another I think $400MM or $500MM bond issuance. So Ohio through popular vote that sustained and survived transitioning from an R to a D and back to an R. So it wasn't a partisan football, right? They both parties had enough sense not to kill the golden goose and that what it did was it it pumped, it injected, you know, close to one and a half billion dollars into early stage entrepreneurial support activities and it has paid multiples multiples on returns. Thom:                               25:40                   This is the kind of thinking I would love to see come to North Carolina. I don't know in the current political environment if there's the political will because it, it seems nowadays that an idea is measured by who had it versus the merit of it and I'm hopeful that there's going to be some political winds of change coming so that we can start once again arguing about the potential of ideas and not based upon who had them Janet:                                26:10                   Exactly. As you referenced, the Gardening Motif. We need to be planting seeds and seeing what grows and creating a fertile environment to make that happen. If you just try to bring in a fully grown pumpkin and plop it down, ultimately it's going to kill what's under it and ultimately it's going to decay and I don't see a big, big move like that. If they were talking 3000 jobs, maybe that would have been much healthier, but 10,000 has got to canibalize what's going on in our current community. Thom:                               26:46                   I couldn't agree more and I think if you need evidence of that, read very closely. A lot of the public narrative around that and see if you can pick out what's absent from a lot of that public narrative and what I am now. I'll lead the witness here. What's absent is very a heartfelt, genuine support from the large corporate community and who would blame them, right? Every large corporation that's been a great tenant and steward in North Carolina has been growing without handouts, right? Without incentives. Just quietly going about doing their thing and being loyal to the state. They are all. Everybody's competing for talent right now and there's a great shortage and now you're going to say, oh, here's this great big thing that's going to be the sexy new that's going to be competing for the people. You can't find it as it is, and we're going to pop that right in your backyard right now. It's hard to get excited about that. Yeah, yeah. They're going to be good citizens. They'll give some perfunctory statement, but I know people that work at these organizations and they have many of them told me privately, yeah, we're not going to shed a tear if they go elsewhere. Janet:                                28:05                   So that's the biggest of the big. Now let's talk about the smallest of the smallest briefly. One of the things that I love about NC IDEA is what you call your family and that people who've been through one of the NC IDEA programs, processes, grant awards, they're very vested in that aren't they? Thom:                               28:28                   Yeah, I mean we really think and know through our own experience. We have the privilege to work with our folks at a discrete moment in time, a discrete point in their adventure, their journey of entrepreneurship. You know, we want them to know that for the time we were officially together, which might be defined by the term of the grant period, we're vested in their success and, and forward momentum, but well beyond. We want them to know that we're here for them and a resource to go forward because, you know, this is this critical mass feeds the ecosystem and where we can have more and more people getting involved and having these peer to peer relationships. This virtuous cycle starts from it. So for example, we host, with, with relative frequency, a, what we call kind of tongue and cheek, alumni events. Thom:                               29:24                   We bring folks, we invite people. We have a newsletter that we publish lucidly just to alumni. We have a slack channel just for them. And so every other month or so we say, okay, you know, I'll, I'll pick up the beer tab and we'll have some hors d'oeuvres thrown out there, but you know, if you want to come by and catch up and talk to others, you know, feel free to do. And we are always humbled by the number of people that want to come in. And they just, they say, listen, thank you. We appreciate this because it's kind of, you know, that designated time to stop and take a breath and get our batteries recharged. They just tell us the most flattering things that warms your heart and you realize, oh yeah, that's right. That's why we do what we do, right? Because we're helping these people and when they're wildly successful, then we've been very specific and deliberate about this particular. Thom:                               30:18                   Next point I'm about to make is we say, hey, listen, remember to pay it forward. At some point you're going to get, you're going to be successful and you're going to be in a capacity of not begging for resources and help and other things, but you actually going to be in a position to offer resources and help. And so please consider and remember us when, when that happens, we had it was, this was several of our labs cycles ago. one of the folks going through the labs program was just so enamored [with the program]. He came into my office, he snagged a piece of stationary. We have these cards that have our logo on the top and he grabbed it, grabbed a pen and a scribbled out I o n c idea $1,000,000. And he signed it. He said, I have no idea what I'm going to make good on this, but I will someday and I hope you'll be here and you'll have this when I can come in with that check. And obviously I don't expect that, but, metaphorically, the sentiment of what he is saying is what we're striving for, where everybody feels that they're part of something bigger because at some point a critical mass that again, that virtuous cycle kicks in. Janet:                                31:29                   That is awesome. And I very, very much look forward to having some of the scholarship recipients that you guys are going to be awarding attending CES with us this year. I think that is such a cool idea. Thom:                               31:44                   It'd be my pleasure and I'm expecting great things from them. Janet, thank you so much for helping make that happen. It's going to be very cool to see North Carolina has such a coordinated effort and, and frankly something that's going to make North Carolina look even better than it already does. Janet:                                32:00                   Absolutely. Well, thanks for being here, Thom. Thom:                               32:03                   It's my absolute pleasure. Janet:                                32:05                   You've been listening to Trade Show Live! On the Road, a podcast that's production of The Trade Show Manager and features an in depth look at the people, companies, organizations that bring trade shows to life.  

Linda: Has it already happened? Katrina: Yeah. It still says starting. Get your head in the picture, because otherwise you're revealing the trick about our cushions. When your head when down, it just looked like a weird cushion arrangement behind us. Linda: There's some crazy talking going on over here. Katrina: Get rid of it. Kill it dead. Linda: What is this? Katrina: Is that a cage to keep humans in? Linda: Oh my God! No, he's wearing pants. Katrina: What are you doing? Linda: He's wearing pants, it's okay. But I got excited there for a minute. Katrina: Creepy cage for humans. Linda: Hello! Katrina: I'm just getting a little insight into this YouTube selection. Alright. Linda: Hi, we need to pay attention to this. We're here. Katrina: We're present and in attendance. I was on a plane like an argon, I'm just like a freaking professional. Linda: You literally just walked up. Katrina: I just walked off a plane. There might have been three full-blown temper tantrum on that plane had by one of my children. It was much wine required. Linda: And, this took a little bit of time. Let's just be - Katrina: This took a little bit of time to make the set fabulous. Wait, wait. I haven't even shared this. Only on my business page. I'm going to share it to my own page. Hang on, everybody. Just wait. You're going to have to wait. I'm just going to entertain you. Linda: I'm going to entertain you. Katrina: I'm sitting with what will come out of me, I'm unsure. Linda: We were about to call ... What were we going to call the live feed? Katrina: You wanted to call it "Whatever the Fuck Comes Out." Which is actually very accurate. Linda: Yes, we have this amazing set up going on. Katrina: It is amazing, look at it. Hang on, we've had a cushion fail. Linda: Oh my God. Katrina: There's been a cushion fail already. Linda: Fail. Katrina: Hello, hello, hello people in my live stream. Linda: Hello, kids and hello people in mine. We should introduce each other. Katrina: Oh that's an idea. People could just figure it out. Linda: People could just figure out who we are. It would be pretty cool if I choose you to my people. My people. You introduce me to your people. Katrina: That's impressive between peoples. Begin, begin. Begin while I share this. I'm going to share it into my group and then to my other page. Linda: Aw look, that's us. Katrina: We look amazing. It is what it is. Linda: Katrina Routh is a serial internet breaker. Katrina: That's actually true. She just wrote me a small, beautiful card. And in there it's some flowers and my favourite chocolates, and some vegemite. Linda: She deserves it, let's face it. Katrina: I came home to this little, I'm going to call it an alter, to me. But in the card- Linda: It was an expression of love. Katrina: But in the card she said, "to the woman who breaks the internet every day." Linda: I did, I did. Katrina: It was beautiful, actually. Thank you. Linda: No worries, well thank you. For having me in your space. But I mean, who wouldn't want to have me in your space. Katrina: All the time. Thank you M.D. alright, last introduction. I think I [inaudible 00:03:22] your introduction. Linda: You did. That's all she cares. No, I'm kidding. Katrina: You can figure the rest out. Linda: She breaks the internet, apart of that, she's my soul sister friend and she's a kick ass entrepreneur. I really, really honour and admire how much she's standing on truth and just kick ass on the internet. Katrina: And all. Thank you. For those who don't know the amazing, talented, and fabulous Linda Docta, here she is. I've prepared her in the flesh earlier. Many of you know us both and follow us both, but for those who don't know, Linda is one of the ... I'm going to say it this way, because this is the simplest way to explain just how highly I think of this one. Linda is one of the few people in the world whose post I consistently read because she's an incredible messenger and writer. And you know, I'm a content creator, not a consumer. I don't consumer a lot of content from other people. I do consume some people. I consumer some people, and I consume some people's content. But Linda's posts are incredible. She's an incredible [inaudible 00:04:37]. You're one of the few people who is not afraid to say what's actually inside of her, and to share what's coming from the soul. As you know, that's what I believe its all got to be about. That's just one reason why we gt along so well. We have a relationship that is predominately on, somewhat, almost an embarrassing amount of audio messages per day. That goes back and forth from all around the world. Linda: They do. Even in the house. When was it? Before you went to Melbourne. You were downstairs, I was upstairs. And you were audioing me and listening to my audio. Katrina: So we don't hang out in person that often, but Linda's here staying in my home for a few days before she jets off again. And often, I don't know, I'm over in American and she's in Sydney, or I'm in Bali and she's in Melbourne, or wherever we are. Now you're going to be in other places around the world, and I'll be here. That's how it is. So we don't see each other in person that often. What just happened? Okay, Linda's phone literally just turned itself off. Katrina: Alright, well you're going to reboot your phone and we're going to start again. Linda: What is this? Katrina: That's it, you broke the internet. Linda: I did break the internet. Katrina: You can't go around saying shit like that. Linda: It's okay, I'm going to share your post onto my ... Oh. Katrina: Yeah, but that shouldn't have turned itself off. Linda: I don't know. Katrina: Oh, well that's because of that. The turned off because that turned off. Linda: Yeah, it did. Katrina: Linda's phone just completely powered itself down. Linda: We're just going to do it on one phone. Katrina: Just start it again, I reckon. So, we don't meet in person. Katrina: Would you want to put yours back on again? Do yours. Katrina: We don't meed in person too often, but then when we do, it's like no time has passed because we're speaking on audio all the time, every single day, and that's how I feel about all my soulmate people around the world. You sometimes feel confused as to when you last saw them in the physical world because you're connecting with them in other worlds so continuously, right? But anyway, she came in here, when was is? Thursday last week or something. And I'm downstairs eating my little midnight snack, as I do, standing at the kitchen bench. Katrina: Okay, let's wait until this starts again. And we'll tell the story. And I'll just tell it anyway because it might take a while to get going. Yeah so, I'm downstairs in the kitchen, which is just through there. And I'm listening to audios as I do often at 1 A.M. or something, and so then I'm listening to Linda's audio message, and then I realise she's actually upstairs in the bedroom, in one of the spare bedrooms. I'm like, "Oh my God, I'm so addicted to listening to audios from you that I'm still listening to audios from you when you're in my house, upstairs, sleeping." And then I'm writing back. Even though I'll see her in the morning at 6 A.M. I'm like, "I can't wait for that, I'm going to need to audio now." Linda: Peoples! We broke the internet. Yes, I already did tag that girl. She's tagged. Peoples, we already broke the internet. Katrina: Linda's phone spontaneously combusted itself. Linda: It did. Katrina: Self-combusted. So, anyway. You missed the story over there on Linda's side. Linda: Sorry, guys. Katrina: Sorry about that. Linda: She was just telling an awesome story, and I kind of feel a bit like I should have gone more with my intro about you. Because that was really beautiful, thank you for that. Katrina: You made me an altar. Linda: I did. Katrina: That was pretty next level. I've got to take a photo of it, later. Linda: Oh I've got to post that stuff. But that was a beautiful expression, because what you said about speaking truth, because I'm just a reflection of you. You know that, right? You are a woman who just stands in her power, in her truth. Katrina: Thank you. Linda: And you always have been. You're just not afraid to say what's flowing through you. Katrina: It's sometimes scary, though. But thank you. Linda: Yeah, no it's amazing. I admire that. Katrina: Well it's been agreed we're both amazing. I just think we can finish there. Linda: See you, later. Cheers! Katrina: Cheers to being amazing. Linda: Cheers. And this is funny because I never drink. [inaudible 00:08:37] Katrina: Never, never. Linda: I feel so naughty. Katrina: Continually breaking the internet now. Well my new programme is part of the internet, so it's only appropriate. But, it is so relevant because the more you stand in your power and in your truth, isn't it true that you're just going to attract in those soulmate people who stand in their truth, and so then you honour that person, like I honour you, for the way you sharpen them, you're honouring me. And then it's just going to turn into a never ending cycle of we both think the other one is amazing, which means that it's a reflection of us. Linda: Yeah! Katrina: It just keeps going. Linda: It's like, you're amazing. No you're amazing. You're amazing. Katrina: Exactly. Linda: And then, it ends up being an altar on the kitchen table. Katrina: You end up coming home off a flight from the other side of the country, and you walk in and your soul sister forever finds you an altar on the kitchen table, vegemite included in the altar. Linda: You know what I should have done? I should have just laid myself down on the table, naked. Katrina: You're reminding me of this thing from Sex and The City, where the guy lays ... No, she's about to lay down naked with sushi all over her body. What's his name? The young guy that she's dating? And then he doesn't come home, though. And then she's laying there on the table for hours covered in sushi, and he just never comes home. He comes home like four hours later or something. And she's still laying there covered in sushi. Katrina: Okay, I was going to do a nice segue into the conscious relationships conversation, but instead we're talking about Samantha from Sex and the City covered naked in sushi. Linda: See, we should have called it Whatever the Fuck comes out. Katrina: Well we were just saying, it is the perfect union to the topic of conscious relationships, which may or may not be what we talk about. Because it will be whatever the fuck comes out. Linda: Exactly. Katrina: But that's ... People say to me all the time, I'm sure you hear this as well. But probably one of the most common things I do hear from people in my community is what an amazing friendship, when they see me with my soul sister friends, right? Like I'll get comments on that a lot, like, "Wow, what an incredible, beautiful friendship." Okay, oh my God. Jermaine literally just wrote what I'm talking about. She wrote, "Gorgeous ladies, #soulmatefriendgoals." Linda: Aw, that's amazing. Thank you. Katrina: So I hear that all the time because I do only have women in my life who are deep, soul sister connected friends. Deep soul sister, however you want to say it. And that's definitely ... Katrina: Okay, you have a marriage proposal over there. I think we should address it. Linda: Aww. Katrina: That's not a wall, actually, Maria, that's a painting that my sister-in-law painted for me. It's not a wall, it's a painting. Linda: Do we need to address this marriage proposal? Katrina: Linda's been proposed to. Linda: I've been proposed to. Katrina: On her live steam. Linda: What should I say? Katrina: We'll consider your offer. We'll get back to you. Linda: Let me sit with it. Katrina: What does your soul say? Linda: Stop, stop now. Stop now. Katrina: What does your soul have to say about this? What are we going to talk about? Where is this conversation going? Linda: I don't know. Katrina: Do you think that life just gets better and better and easier and easier? Linda: I think so. Katrina: Do you think that we have almost an inappropriate amount of fun, except that nobody realises that you meant to have so much fun all the time? Linda: Yeah but here's the thing. I go in and out of having a lot of fun and then sometimes I get very, very serious in my work. Katrina: Sometimes you get a litter angry. Linda: What do you mean? Katrina: When the passion really comes out. Warrior Linda. Linda: You've had some amazing audio from me lately. Katrina: I've seen the warrior ninja come through a few times. I've seen the [inaudible 00:12:13] ninja, as well, in fact it was doing back flips in my bedroom the other night. Linda: She calls me an "it." Katrina: I meant the ninja. I'm calling it an it, it's an extension of you. Okay, go, you were saying about getting serious. Linda: No, but I have another story. See, I swap stories. I'm a Gemini, just to let you know. I'm a Gemini, so I start a sentence, and then I never finish. And I start another one, I don't finish that either. So I start three different stories in one go. Katrina: And then meanwhile, I'll be doing the exact same thing [inaudible 00:12:46]. Linda: And then she cuts me off and we never get anywhere. Katrina: So, if you're hoping to take some kind of orderly notes from this evening's session, we're going to need to let you know that's not going to happen. But sit back, buckle up, enjoy the ride, and trust you will receive whatever it is that you'll hear divinely to receive. Linda: Whatever your soul is wanting to receive, it's always the perfect timing. Katrina: Exactly. Linda: What I was saying - Katrina: You said sometimes you get really serious. Linda: No, before that. There was another story that cuts off what I was saying. I need to finish this story, first. Katrina: Just let it come on. Linda: It comes out really fast. So, only today, because you were talking about the ninja stuff. I only got a reminder in my phone, in my memories, that it was only a year ago exactly, I was competing in the ninja championship. Katrina: Was that already a year ago? Linda: Yeah, yep. It was. Katrina: So cool. Linda: So what I was saying before the ninja, that yeah, I feel myself going in and out of having a lot of fun, and fun is one of my highest values. Katrina: Yeah. Linda: And play vibrates the same as prey. Play is one of the highest vibrations, so - Katrina: Explain that. Linda: Imagine having fun, like think about the vibration you're in when you're having fun. Like think about how you're actually feeling, there's no ego when you're just full of joy. When you just ... you're immersed in this bubble of love and joy. An ego doesn't exist in that moment, it's just an embodiment of excitement, fun, love. Katrina: You're completely present. Linda: Exactly. You're fully present. Katrina: An ego can't be there when you're completely present. Linda: No, it can't. Katrina: I just had breakthrough moment, already. Not being a smart ass, either, it sounded slightly like I was. Isn't that a powerful concept. Linda: Is it. It is. And I continue to remind myself to have fun, because sometimes I feel like, oh shit, maybe I'm just caught up too much in my serious side, or introspection. Katrina: You are one of the most fun people I know and I'll give you a case study. Linda: Case study? Katrina: Case study. Linda: I cannot guarantee what she's going to say tonight, so. Katrina: It's not that outrageous. But one time I wanted to take my friends to the indoor ... children's ... my friends? - I wanted to make my children to the indoor, you know they have the indoor play centres, right? It was a really rainy Saturday on the Gold Coast sometime last year, back in [inaudible 00:15:14]. My kids are driving me crazy, I'm like, I've got to go to the indoor play centre, but I was like, I need some adult time. I was actually just losing my shit. And I was like, "Who can I invite to come to an indoor kid's play centre with me?" And all my friends who had kids were occupied or busy already, and I'm like which of my friends who doesn't have kids could I invite to come to the indoor play centre with me? I'm like, Linda. Obviously. Katrina: So I audioed her, I'm like, "Hey do you want - it's called Juddlebugs - I'm like do you want to come to Juddlebugs?" She's like, "What's Juddlebugs?" I'm trying to describe it, I'm like "There's like a netting thing you get trapped in and you fall down, and there's slides and you can shoot people and then there's a foam pit." And she's like, "How have I never heard of this?" Linda: And I was going off on you. How dare you not tell me there's a place called Juddlebugs? How dare you? Katrina: But we had the best afternoon. We got trapped upside down in the spiderweb for an unreasonable ... We nearly did a live stream up there. Linda: We did, almost. Katrina: That would be inappropriate. But you are a fun orientated person and I think I've learned a lot about having fun. Kids themed party for adults, that's an awesome idea, AJ. Linda: Oh, yeah. Was I having this conversation with you, AJ? We need to create, yeah you were only saying that the other day at breakfast, yesterday. Katrina: Yeah, I've learned a lot about having fun from you, but I think that that concept of there being no ego in it, is really, really interesting and really powerful. And it's a reminder that if we can get into being present, then I think ... Okay, fun is one thing, then I think we also, that is the place where we access our highest [inaudible 00:16:53] areas, in terms of, for example, greatest creative flow, right? I know that when I get into silliness, playing, silliness, being frivolous, maybe a little bit reckless, or kind of making a fool of yourself, that sort of thing, sometimes I don't know, I'd be curious to know if you feel this way, sometimes when I get really silly and really kind of frivolous and lighthearted, I'll feel a slight shame feeling afterwards. For self-consciousness, where I feel a little - Linda: Like you're judging yourself? Katrina: Do I embarrass myself, did I make a fool of it? Linda: The ego comes back in? Katrina: Yeah, the ego's coming back in afterwards. But then, at the same time, and I'll notice it afterwards, and it feels kind of like a walk of shame type of feeling. Like, did I really do that? And the thing is though, that I don't allow that to infiltrate me and stop me from going wherever I go in my energy when I'm on a live stream, for example, or whatever it is I'm doing in any situation. Because I know that I get into such an amazing creative flow and I get all the downloads when I'm in that place. But then afterwards, my human mind will come back in and be like, "Oh you probably pushed it a little too far," or, "You're making a fool of yourself," or, "People probably think you're off your head." All my judgements come through. Linda: Yeah, yeah. Katrina: But I still do it. I still do it. I notice them and observe them. I'm like, "Okay, thank you for showing up and telling me all the reasons I'm not good enough. I'm going to keep going anyway." Linda: Yeah, yeah. It's amazing to be your own observer. Here's the thing, we all have an inner child within us. We all have an inner child, and sometimes when we get in on this conscious journey of growth and conscious growth and there's ego and then there's a spiritual ego that can come and slap - Katrina: Oh, that's a [crosstalk 00:18:39]. Linda: Yeah, yeah. So I've definitely been wacked left, right, and centre by the spiritual ego sometimes. As you start moving through this experience, you go into that judgement of, "Now I can't be silly because I'm conscious or spiritual." Katrina: Ah, I so nearly put a post up tonight, I'm not even kidding, the only reason I didn't post this on Facebook an hour ago is because I just posted to say we're going to do this. Linda: Well, see, who's a mind reader. Katrina: And I nearly wrote something like, "Be careful not to get so fucking involved that you can't," I don't know. I can't even remember what then ending of what I was going to say is. That like, you become so freaking involved that your whole thing is how involved you are. Linda: Yeah. Katrina: Be careful of the ego that is attached to walking around being like, "Oh I've had all the ego deaths." Yeah, but that's ego, so. And we all do it. Spiritual ego. Linda: Yeah, it's a very interesting concept and to ... I love being my own observer of just allowing myself to be with ease, I don't go into judgement that often. I'm like, "Okay, that was a fascinating, internal response." Katrina: Right, that's similar to what I'll say to myself, like curiosity. Linda: Yeah, it's like, okay. Katrina: Observation. Linda: Okay, that was fascinating. I'm interested why I responded internally that way. Katrina: Yeah, that was an interesting [inaudible 00:20:06]. Linda: And still, I've moved away from that judgement , I'm just like, "I wonder where that came from?" Katrina: Yeah, that's actually really similar to ... I talk about that a lot with clients, as well. I definitely still have those self judgmental reactions come through, but the way that I persist them is curiosity or lightheartedness. My two favourite ones. Linda: Really important. Katrina: When I say lightheartedness, let's say you said something or did something, maybe on a Facebook live like this, or maybe in a one-on-one conversation with somebody, and you really feel that you went quite far with vulnerability and you exposed yourself, and then you go out of that situation and you feel like a need to protect yourself or you feel like maybe you went too far and you put yourself in some vulnerable space or place, and then maybe the judgements comes up, like it could either be, "Yeah, well that was an interesting choice, I wonder why I chose to do that, let me get curious about that," or it could literally be like, "Oh, how silly, how cute. That's really funny, I wonder why I chose that." Or it could even be you did something that really caused some sort of sabotage, right? We've both spoken publicly many times about backgrounds of self-sabotage, and then those old patterns can sometimes try to continue to knock on the door. Many times, people ... I don't want to call it relapse, maybe not the best word, not my favourite word anyway. But many times, people will pick up an old sabotaging pattern and then they'll tend to feel like, "I'm bad, and I'm weak willed, and I got to hate on myself, and why did I do this?" Katrina: And instead, and I speak about this a lot with a lot of clients who have struggled with binge eating and if the binge eating comes back ... I have bulimia for 10 years, so I understand it, right? And they'll be like, "Oh my God, this is fucked up, what did I do?" And I'm like, "Wait no, what if instead, it was 'Oh, wow. I wonder why you needed that? Let's get curious about that. What was it inside you that needed that?'" Or also, even to smile about something that perviously felt so heavy and to make it lighthearted. It takes the power out of it and actually gives you back your power. Linda: Yeah, yeah. And conscious, when I say, because we said in the title "Conscious Relationship" it's not just conscious relating with another person or in an actual partnership or relationship, it's also how we're consciously relating to ourselves and what kind or relationship we're having to ourselves. Katrina: 100% Linda: And I think that's even more important to dive into, because if you don't understand yourself, then how can you consciously relate to another human being, if you don't understand your own ways of internal response and dimension and your operation system. Katrina: Yeah, I love that, and it's funny because I think when we said we'd talk about conscious relationships, we said that to each other earlier today, and I think we sort of thought, relationships with other people, but when I was on the plane just before, I was thinking, I feel like this is going to be more about the relationship with self, because the place that we create epic relationships with other people from, even an amazing friendship, an amazing client-mentor relationship. I always say that my clients, so many clients, it wasn't always that way. It could be a romantic relationship, as well. All the different relationships. In order to call it or allowing or flowing to incredible incredible conscious relationships with other individuals, we have to first be in an incredible conscious relationship with our own selves. Linda: Absolutely. Katrina: And in a space of non-judgment, understanding, compassion, and full acceptance. Linda: I only wrote a blog about that this morning. That I got inspired by someone who asks me yesterday, "Linda, why haven't you been swept off your feet yet?" And I didn't get triggered or anything like that, it just simply inspired me to talk about it openly and to express myself why that is, and just put a little slightly different perspective on it, as well. And take it into the relating with self, because if we want someone to show up for us, if we want someone to be present with us, we have to be present with ourselves, first. We have to show up for ourselves, first. Linda: Quite often, we're longing for something, we're wanting, we're even needing. So there's a needing ness and you are filling a void within us, that we haven't even actually given ourselves. And if we're not giving ourselves, then how can we truly experience that outside of ourselves? Katrina: Well you learn you receive from others what you're giving to yourself. That's the reality. So if you feel, maybe sometimes you get frustrated or angry, this happens a lot with coaches and with their clients, and it happens with men and women in romantic relationships, it even happens in friendships and family dynamics, also. I guess I hear it fairly frequently in the coaching industry, "I seem to have all these clients who are behind on their payments," or whatever, right? Some sort of pardon like that. And it's always like, "Okay cool, this is great, this is great feedback and information because this is a great opportunity to look at where am I not honouring myself?" Linda: Absolutely. Katrina: And yeah, the think with relationships that I think sometimes we all forget, I know give forgotten this or put it aside at times, is there'll always be instability there. The goal is not to get to some sort of place of done, sorted, everything's predicted and predictable. Imagine how fucking boring that'd be, anyways. But it's growth, relationships are there for our growth, right? Exactly, AJ just that's where we attractively show our voids. Linda: Yeah. Katrina: So when you have people in your life, any area of your life, who you feel like their causing you to feel something, it's always "Wow, thank you, because this allows me to see an area in myself where I wasn't paying attention, where I wasn't honouring myself." Can I give an example that's a little bit naughty? Of course I can. Linda: Are you asking for permission? Katrina: I don't know. I don't know. When I was on the live stream last week, Chris told me not to swear, I was like, "What?" But it's because we were going to use it for a Facebook ad. I'm like, "Mother fucker." He's like, "You can't swear." I'm like, "What do you mean I can't swear?" Katrina: Okay, so I had an awareness only very recently, actually. I had always thought, not always, but I had frequently felt frustrated that when I have sex with Mare, he would very rarely pay attention to my breasts. All men, I don't mean one individual man, right? But it was a pattern that I noticed. I felt frustrated that men would just kind of ignore my breasts. They would sometimes even just leave my top of and just go down there, and not always, but a high percentage of the time. And I definitely had a story in my head that this is because I have fairly small breast and that's the reason why. And I was 100% certain about that. And then, long story short, I realised that, "Holy shit. I never give my breasts love and attention. I never pay attention," previously never. I was never paying them attention, I was not giving them any love, any touch, any affection, I didn't really consider them ... I didn't dislike my breasts at all, actually I find them very practical for fitness reasons, but if we take that story even further back, though, and I did blog about it. Yeah, Marie, I did blog about it a week or two ago. Katrina: Because I'm actually having breast enlargement surgery in two days. And I'm so grateful I realised all this before that was coming through, right? Because that's coming from a place of desire, not from a place of trying to fill a need. But with this, if you go back even further, when I was a teenage, I had really big boobs. And when I was in my late teens. And people would comment on it often and I would wear low cut tops often, and I wasn't heavy either. I just actually had big boobs. But then I would learn from my mom, about be careful because men are going to whatever. I got the message that I was being too sexual, and I really think when I look back now, I think I manifested them way. Because now look, they're like an A cup or whatever, they're a small B, maybe. But yeah, it was just this interesting realisation of I'm walking around going, "What the fuck is with these dudes that don't take the time to touch the rest of my body because that's what I really want and that's really what opens you up as a women, to have that attention to all areas, not just, obviously." Katrina: Whether or not it's obviously, if it's not obvious, now you know. Welcome. And then I'm like, "Oh my God, holy fucking wake up call. I get to love on myself in that area." And I'm not kidding, within four days of when I started to give attention in that area and then I had a sexual experience and it was like, "Yeah, I'm like ..." Linda: But see, this flows into all areas of life. It's not just what we experience with relationships. It's actually in all areas. So I'm just going to invite you into a moment of introspection and to really reflect on in what area of your life are you feeling that, "Oh I'm not receiving what I'm actually wanting?" And you're kind of blocking yourself from that. In what area of you're life, is it maybe money, it is money stuff? What's your relationship with money, how you speak to money, what do you feel about money? If you're someone who wants to contentiously create that or you want to consciously create a beautiful relationship, or experience certain things. Then you have to look inside, first, and check in, are you giving yourself that? That was a beautiful example. That was a really beautiful example. Katrina: And that's a physical example, but it's also with the emotional stuff. Linda: Yeah, yeah. Katrina: And any time we're looking for something to fill a need in us, money is a great example, if I had that money then I'd be safe, I'd be free, then I'd be credible, then I'd be good enough. It's always like, "Oh, wow." As soon as you realise that, how can I give that to myself. Well actually, how you can give any of these things to yourself is to decide to. It's not something you've got to go out and work for. You can do it in this moment. Linda: Absolutely. It's simply a choice. It's decision to do so in an instant because we can so easily get caught up, and like you said before, when I get there, then I'll be good enough. When I lose this weight, then I'll feel good enough, or then I'll feel beautiful. Or that was just one example. Katrina: Or when I make the money then I'm safe or then I'm worthy. Linda: Then I'm successful. Katrina: Then I can relax in my life, then I can have fun in my life, then I can be happy. Or when somebody loves me then this, then this, then this. So anything that we're putting onto a pedestal like that, we're saying, "If I have this thing outside of myself, then I can experience and live in the emotions and energies that I desire." It causes you to actually push it away. It means that you hold the thing that you want at arms length, it's a lesson that you've got to learn. Is that you get to give that to yourself. So when you continue in that pattern, it's kind of like, "Oh, okay cool. I see that you just want to keep learning that same lesson again and again and again." Interesting choice. Linda: Isn't it interesting when the universe continues to teach you the same lessons until you learn? I'm just reflecting back on some of my own patterns, and like, oh my God. Katrina: Right, right. Linda: And it just clicks. I'm like, "Okay, well I haven't been honouring myself in that area," or "I haven't been giving myself attention in that area." Katrina: Yeah. Okay, we're back. We just froze over here. Linda: She broke the internet again. I mean, we broke it. Katrina: You put it into words on the card over there. Linda: I did. Katrina: Now it just keeps happening. Linda: We're manifesting it. Conscious creation. What was I talking about before? Going on tangents. Katrina: You were talking about how there's been times where you've noticed you learning the same lesson again and again and again. And then it's like, "Okay. I'm finally done with learning that lesson." Linda: Yeah, yeah. And the learning can be in an absolute instant. You choose to shift your internal matrix and you just chose to observe what's happening. And you chose to - Katrina: It's an instantaneous decision. Linda: Yeah, absolutely. And how quickly your outer matrix can shift with that. Katrina: Yeah. Completely. Linda: So phenomenal. Katrina: It's amazing. I mean, earlier on this week, you know I was in Bali until Wednesday. I remember Monday, I think ... Well we audio every day, anyway. But I was really feeling kind of stuck and in some heavy energies, and you know where it's up in your face, I get anxiety sometimes. And I was having a pretty extreme anxiety day, which I hadn't had in a while, and I was really just not enjoying that feeling of it. But at the same time, I remember I walked into the gym and I remember saying to myself, "This will shift. As much as in this moment of insane anxiety and feeling frustrated or whatever it was that I was experiencing, as much as that felt real." I was so aware, I guess, from all the work that I've done over the years and the way I live my life, I was like, "This could shift any moment." And from now on I might feel on top of the fucking world and completely understand all my madness and why I was making something into a really big thing. Or I might stay in a state or feeling stuck and anxious and frustrated or trapped or whatever for the whole day, and either what it's okay, either way it is what is, and that's all it is, and that's okay. Katrina: But I think that sometimes when we're in that state of feeling like, "Why can I have what I want and why is money evading me or why is this happening or why is my business here or why are my relationships like this or whatever," that we get so caught up in this kind of story of "This is not fair and why am I getting [inaudible 00:34:18] this instead of just being like this could change in an instant based on your own thoughts," I don't mean based on something happened. I mean based on you suddenly get some new perspective and on that day earlier this week, I said just kind of a simple loose intention in my mind that this will get to shift and that they'll be a way for me to be empowered by this situation that was causing me to feel a bit panicked, and I felt like, "How could that happen?" Because there is something that makes me feel upset. Katrina: And I'm not kidding, like two hours later, I was like, "Holy shit, wow. I feel so grateful for this now because I just realised how I'm not addressing whatever area inside of and that I now get to learn about this, and oh my God, I'm so glad that this happened to cause me to go into this anxiety of this crazy tail spin." I had to sit in it and marinate in it and it didn't feel fun, but even when you're in that state, like we know that it's for our greater good, right? Linda: Always. Katrina: So we might be like, "Ah this feels like shit. This has been dragged through the ringer, and put on a freaking spin cycle and then you go ten rounds after that, and then somebody" ... But you still know that it's for your learning and growth. So even in the mists of the worst of it, you're like, "And I'm getting fucking strong as a mother fucker." Watch me grow. Linda: Watch me grow, watch me expand. Katrina: We talk about this all the time. Linda: We do, we do. I think it's really powerful how we can go into, even when we're triggered, so this is the thing, previously the gratitude always comes after, the learning comes after. You're not going to get clarity and learning and wisdom when you're full of emotion. You need to left that shift. You need to be with it. But can you be your own observer at the same time? And instantly, while you're having that experience of, "I feel really shit. I feel really challenged." Can you be your own observer and go, "Hey I'm still grateful, because I'm being shown something that I'm not quite getting yet. Katrina: Right. I don't know what it is yet, but I know that it's here for a reason. Linda: It's here for a reason, it's here for my greater good, and I get to learn something. I get to be a better version of myself as I come through this. Katrina: Yeah. It's just when I'm triggered, I'm secretly happy because I know I'm healing. Linda: Yeah. I love that. I love that expression. Katrina: Well even on the plane just then, my four year old had three next level tantrums on the flight that were just so bad, so full on. I'm first I was conscious as fuck. I'm using conscious communication with my child, everybody probably so impressed by me. I was staying super calm, I was very proud of myself, right? And I got him through the first tantrum. Katrina: But then he had another one. And I felt myself start to break a little bit. I was like, "Fucking." I didn't say that, but that's what I was feeling, right. I was going to be like skanky bogan mom on the plane. But I didn't. But I was feeling it. But it was so full on. He's just like that when he's not ... he's a free spirit. Linda: Auntie Linda never gets those attacks, let's just leave it like that. Katrina: You can freaking fly with him. But honestly, at the same time, there was this small part of me that was like, "I'm becoming a warrior right now as a mother." I'm learning and growing. Okay he did break me a little bit, there was one point when the stewardess come up and I may have just been sitting on the tray table ignoring him while he jumped up and down in the seat and threw a marinate sauce on the guy in front of me. Linda: What? You didn't tell me that part. Katrina: I didn't have time to tell you anything, I got home and we went straight into the live stream. It was a small moment there where I was like, "I'm just going to pretend this is not happening and I'm not even going to try to do anything about it." Linda: As he was throwing sauce at people. Katrina: And the stewardess is like, "Could you stop standing up on the seat, please, the captain's going to come out and get you." And he was like, "No he's not." But he goes, "Never!" He refuses to sit. Linda: I love Nathan, he's just so unapologetic in his stuff. Katrina: Yeah and then she's like, "Wow, he's quite stern mood isn't he?" I'm like ... Linda: He's just unapologetic. He doesn't take no for an answer. Katrina: I really did break a little bit. I was like, "This is too hard. I just want to drink my wine and write in my fucking journal." Linda: I honour all the moms out there, honestly. I really honour all the moms because I don't have kids myself, yet, it might be an experience that I get to have in this lifetime, it may not, you know, either way I'm okay. But it's beautiful to watch from a distance. Katrina: Honestly, even through that, I'm just like, you go into this place when that shit happens on a plane where you're like, "I'm just going to choose to not allow anyone else' perceptions to impact me right now. I'm going to be in my space, with my child doing the best I can fucking do and now worrying about what everybody else is thinking about it." But there was definitely that part of me that was like, "I'm growing from this experience." And it's like what AJ just said about when you get triggered, and yeah, anything shit's going on for us and we always share what we're working through and what we're processing and stuff that's coming up. Linda: But we still have our tantrums, as well. Katrina: Ah, yeah. Linda: Some of our audience, like yesterday - Katrina: Sometimes we're extraordinarily immature. Linda: Oh my God. I just make - Katrina: Yesterday was an interesting day. Linda: Oh my God. But we also have these tantrums. Conscious tantrums. It's hilarious. Katrina: #concioustantrums. We do. It's release. Linda: Yeah, it is. Katrina: The thing is, even when we're having a tantrum through, we're aware and we know what we're doing. Linda: Yeah. Katrina: And we talk about it, usually at the same time. Not even afterward. But you won't be like, "losing your shit," or "I'm losing my shit," or whatever, and in the same audio, we're like, "Oh, well then I also understand that blah blah blah." And it's like, people don't talk like that normally with their friends. We give ourselves credit and give yourself credit if you are catching yourself, even a little bit. Because it's not about being so fucking involved that you're not in a human experience at all. But I think that one of the most powerful things is to be able to catch yourself and to notice it. Linda: Absolutely, absolutely. And like I said, be that own observer on the side. And go, "Okay, I'm allowing myself to just be [inaudible 00:40:56], I'm allowing myself to be with this." Katrina: Right. Linda: I'm allowing myself to be a little brat. And like I was saying yesterday, I just want to fucking kick and scream. But I'm not going to. [crosstalk 00:41:07]. And then just verbalise it, which is an expression of releasing. What was I saying? I either feel like having two litres in wine and I hardly ever drink or I want to have two litres of ice cream, which is not an option, or give me a bucket of peanut butter, or - Katrina: What is that, that's on the table over there? Linda: Where? Katrina: That packet of interesting items that I threw on the table down there. Linda: It's for you, my dear. Katrina: Did you buy me peanut butter? We needed some peanut butter in this house. [inaudible 00:41:43] Linda: We have peanut butter cuddles. Katrina: Well, you know what, what do you think ... peanut butter orgasms are also a thing that people need to be aware of. But that may be a topic for another live stream. But what do you think about, we were talking before about having fun and how important fun is, so fun is something that's often thought of as a childhood type thing, right? Children naturally know how to really be in a set of higher fun. Well children are also fabulous at having next level temper tantrums. So do you think it's just totally okay to be ... if you're going to be in that child energy of play and fun and lightheartedness and frivolity, why don't you get ... This is still live, Patrick - Linda: Yeah, it's life. Katrina: No need to replay. Why don't you get to also ... Well you don't necessarily get to lay down on the floor in the airport like my son does and kick and scream. Linda: But could you imagine though? Next time we go travelling, we should ... you have the phone, I'll do the thing. Honestly, we can do some skits. Katrina: That would be hilarious. [crosstalk 00:42:51]. I want the fucking peanut butter! They took my peanut butter off me at security! Totally. But it's actually not that funny because we're talking about, as adults, we learn to restrict our expression of our emotion. Linda: Right. Yeah. And we get so suppressed, but it's a form of release and no wonder we're so programmed to repress and not express ourselves, no wonder all of the sudden all these things are bubbling up inside, and then we just snap at the smallest little thing because we haven't been taught how to express ourselves. We haven't been taught how to create healthy containers to release our emotions and the energy from our bodies. And here's the thing, our physical bodies are going to store emotion and if we're not creating healthy containers to let go of that and to constantly release, like crying is a form of release, and we've even made crying bad. That crying is weak. Katrina: Right, right. It's a method as well. Linda: It's a mode of healing. Katrina: Absolutely. But it's also, if you continue to hold back what you're acting thinking and feeling from yourself, nevermind the other people in your life, then actually over time, you accidentally created yourself into a version of yourself which is not the real you. Linda: Yeah. Katrina: Because every single time you make a choice to respond from, "This is how I should show up or behave in this situation, as opposed to this is my true self, my true soul," you just made a small adjustment off track. And if you're doing that day by day, multiples times throughout the day, you kind of cultivating yourself into being this service based, masked version of yourself. And so then you wonder, why your relationships aren't working, why you can't seem to attract in those ideal soulmate clients, if you're an entrepreneur. I had a client a year or so ago say something about there's always these conflicts like friendships, and at the time I was like, "Wow, I don't have any conflict in my friendships." Now, I'm saying I don't experience conflict ever in my friendships, but it certainly not something where ... I don't expect it or I don't really think of it as normal, right? I wouldn't expect that we are friends would have some kind of conflict. Of course it's possible, nothing's impossible, but to me that's a soul aligned relationship, whether it's client or a friend or something different in the personal life. Katrina: I don't look at that as there should be currents of turmoil. Now if there would, that would be okay as well. Because it is what it is. But it's more that when the soul connection is there, there's an actual real true understanding of who we each are as individuals. It's not based on some service masked foundation, is what I'm saying. Linda: Right, yeah. Katrina: So therefor, there's actual legitimate acceptance of each other on a soul level, not just, "Oh yeah, you say the things or do the thing or have the things in your life that similar to me and so we'll be friends." Linda: Yeah, absolutely. And I think you and I are similar in many ways, but we're also so different in so many ways, and I think I remember ages and ages ago when I was just playing at a different level of consciousness, to just observe my human connections and relationships that I had back then and it was kind of like this ego game of, "Oh why wouldn't you like that? We can't be friends now." It wasn't honouring people ad accepting people for who they were. And now that I find with all of my friends, who I connect with on a soul level, we may not agree with everything, we may not do everything the same way, but we're fully honouring each other for who we are. Katrina: Completely Linda: And accepting each other for who we are. Katrina: Yeah. Linda: And life really isn't about, like you said earlier, touched on how we tend to lose ourselves because we're told who to be and we're told how to live our life, we are operating from this mask. And we're not even ourselves. And quite often we hear this expression of I just want to go and find myself. It isn't about finding yourself. Life is about remembering who you aare. Because everything is inside of you. We've all been born a free spirit of love, we all have an inner child within ourselves, so it's the programming of society that puts you in a box and tells you how to live your life, what to believe, how to ... We're even been thought what to think. We're being thought what to feel, in this type of situation, you should feel this. Katrina: Right. [crosstalk 00:47:34] Linda: And every single part of our life is manufactured in this system. So quite often we hear about, "Oh I'm going to go around the world to find myself." We don't need to go around the world to find ourselves. We can literally sit in stillness and just think right here and start to peel back the layers of who we're not. Who we've been told to be. And that's really powerful. It's not about, "Hey I want to figure out everything at once," that's not how it works. You figure something out about yourself, start to remember who you are on certain levels. It's like the onion. You peel back one layer and then there's something else under that. Linda: We run away from ourselves, yeah. I definitely run away from myself. A lot, in fact, back in the day. Because I couldn't face and stand the person who I was. So I did everything and anything to continue to numb and escape from my reality. Katrina: Right, yeah. There's a lot of things that are on the surface that could look like fabulous life choices, travels one of them. Which people might use in some cases, for numbing or escaping, but it's all about the place it's coming from. Because it can be coming, obviously from a place of hiding value and grounding and expanding, or it could be coming from a place of hiding. Like alcohol is one example of that. Sometimes people drink alcohol to obviously escape and run and hide, and then other times alcohol is expanding a higher vibe of abundance energy, basically. So it's all about where you already are, but either way, you've got to be giving yourself everything you need. If you think going on a silent meditation or going to a retreat or doing a course or getting a coach or getting a partner or whatever it is that's going "to change everything for me, that's going to fix me, that's going to give me what I need. I need this, I have to do it." It's like, "Well cool, do it if you feel called to do it, whatever it is." But you're actually still going to need to figure out how to give that to yourself at some point. Linda: Really good point. Katrina: You're not going to get it from going to that thing, paying that person, doing that thing. Linda: Yeah, absolutely. People can guide us, absolutely, but at the end of the day, a good coach is someone who guides and teaches for you to how to heal yourself, how to be more of you, how to connect to your truth and your believes around things, and how to be your own observer. So you're not relying on an external coach all the time. Or you're not relying on another external resource. Katrina: Yeah, I read about this. I did a little [inaudible 00:50:14] as my plane was taking off about maximum abuse learnings around relationships, business and personal, and like I mentioned specifically, a mentor shouldn't be telling you what to do. I believe a mentor is to help you remember how to be your be your own [inaudible 00:50:32], but a mentor is there to be more of who you are and connect to your soul, connect to your intuition and your own guidance and wisdom. Not to tell you, "Here's the rules and you must do this in order to get this result." Linda: Yeah, absolutely. And it's powerful when you can start to tune into yourself and listen to your own soul and allow your inner compass to guide you, and I'm very big on that. Katrina: Yes. Your soul always knows. Linda: Your could always knows. I actually have to admit to one thing. This year, I ended up getting caught up with events, like person - Personal growth is one of my highest values, and I love ... I can throw my money on personal growth. Coaching, mentoring, events, all this stuff. And I found myself doing one event after another, one course after another - Katrina: Yeah you were in a - Linda: ... I'm like, "Holy shit, this is actually too much." What am I actually searching from these events? Is that thing of, "Ah, I want to expand more, I want to evolve my consciousness more. And I don't feel good enough." So that was really interesting to obverse myself in that. But I caught myself. I was completely honest with myself. I'm being honest with you here as well. It doesn't matter how much you continue to evolve, you'll never get to a stage where, "Okay, I've had enough now." Katrina: Yep. Linda: But also, be careful that you're not going the other way of "I want more and more and more." Because you can't be okay with what you have inside of you. Katrina: Right. Like learn ... yeah. Learning, growth work, is a great example of what we were just saying. A lot of people use growth work to escape from being in the now and from living their lives. In fact, you know Bali, like we're both obsessed with Bali and we both go to Bali a lot. You're leaving back again Tuesday for Bali, right? And I just came back from Bali on Wednesday and I go there every month. Linda: And you're coming back for my birthday. Katrina: I'm going back to Bali for your birthday, of course, in a few weeks. So Bali though, is a place ... There's an expression about Bali I remember hearing, it's like, it can be a place for the internal wanderer. Now, nothing wrong with being an internal wanderer, but specially there's a lot of people who go to Bali and 20 years later are still in Bali and have not, as I would call it, pressed fucking play on anything, they're just floating around freaking Bali being healed and cleansed. Bali cleanse. Linda: That is starting. Katrina: We have our own detention of what a Bali cleanse may entail. But there is. There's a lot of people in Bali who are amazing artists and messengers, but who have not put a single bit of work out in the world or barely anything. They're just caught up in their energy and the obsession and the vortex of Bali, and I'm healing and I'm learning and I'm exploring and I'm wondering. And it's like, cool, when are you going to fucking do something? Linda: Yeah. Katrina: So there's going to be that part of it, as well. Linda: Absolutely. Katrina: And Bali's a good example of that. But life is a good example of that, as well. And in this industry, for sure, you see so many people who are continually learning, continually healing, continually absorbing new content and regurgitating stuff on the internet, I guess, but when are you going to actually admit that you're scared to let what's inside of you out? And then just do it. Because that's what's going on. You're becoming addicted to the growth work as a way of escaping doing your own fucking work. Linda: Yes, and we're hiding under the spiritual masks, then we become, like we start to awaken our self worth and our beliefs are still at a level where we think that, for example, money is bad, or we can't do certain things because it's bad. And we actually have a lot of limiting believes in operating from that space, and then we just hide under this spiritual façade of spiritual masks where, oh no, no, but I'm spiritual and I'm a good person - Katrina: Bold as fuck. Linda: And we hide and we use that as an excuse to cover up and limiting where you're thinking or our low self worth and how we're operating. So we're using it as an excuse and I'm masking. Katrina: It's hiding. Linda: It is hiding. And at the end of the way, we can get so caught up in the whole, "Let's just do yoga and meditate every day and do nothing else." Katrina: Right. Linda: But at the end of the day, yes those are daily practises and very important, I believe in them very much. I'm a yoga teacher - Katrina: Yeah, journaling. Obviously I'm obsessed with journaling, I talk about it all the time, but one time I wrote a post, something like, "Put the fucking journal down. Stop fucking journaling. Go and do some work." Like, okay journaling is that work, I get that, obviously I teach that. But yeah, there's go to be those ... it's that dance, back and forth between, okay I'm going within and I'm accessing guidance and I'm learning and growing, or connecting with others who are helping me to grow. And then it's like, okay now I'm in creation mode, because as humans, we're all brought here to create. We're not brought here to consume. Consumption of content or growth or whatever - Linda: That's what we're taught. Katrina: But creation, I believe, is of higher value for the majority of us, or certainly, at least, for people in this community. We're creators. Linda: Yeah, yeah. Katrina: So are you creating or are you caught up in that continual, perpetual, wondering and seeking and never being ready to press play, and there's always something else to learn and nother fucking healing session to do, and another journaling session to do, and at some point it's like, put the journal down. Linda: Yeah, and you know, it can be uncomfortable to observe these things about ourselves and we don't always want to admit to that. But it's really powerful to just own that space and not just own your story, but own everything where you're at. First of the changes is awareness and then acceptance. Accept where you are, and go, "Okay, awesome, I acknowledge where I am now, and if I'm not aware, then how can I create change?" And like I just own up about the whole event thing. I'm like, "Oh my God, I just being going from event to event." Katrina: Well you said yes to all those events in alignment, though. Like you're the opposite of a person who doesn't do the work. But then, at a certain point, you noticed that it was too ... it was feeling like, this is not what I need. Linda: Yeah, yeah. Katrina: To be continual. But you weren't saying yes to those events in a place of trying to escape or avoid anything. It was the opposite of that. Linda: Yeah. Katrina: It was aligned to say yes, and then at a certain point it was like, "Oh, okay cool. I can learn what I need to learn here," which partly is that I don't need to go to events back to back to back to back. Linda: Oh my God. Katrina: In different cities continually. Linda: I'm having a month off, okay. A month off. Katrina: Yeah, but now, you're falling out of that and you're into more growth and time and taking actual time, it's a perfect balance, right? Linda: The integration - Katrina: You're allowing it all to just sink deeper into who you are. Linda: Yeah. The integration is a really interesting topic and I think it's a really important one to discuss because we can, for example, if you're using the event example again, we can continue to do courses, events, blah blah blah, and we take all the information in, or we do healing. But are we allowing ourselves to integrate? Are we actually applying also our learnings? We can get caught up in the personal development world, as well. We just continue to do all the courses, learn all the stuff, but are we applying it? Are we actually embodying - Katrina: Are you testing it out? Linda: ... the teachings? Are we embodying the wisdom of what we're actually being taught? Because knowledge is not power. It's what you do with the knowledge. Katrina: Yep, that applied knowledge is power. Linda: Yeah. Applied knowledge is power. Yeah, I definitely believe that, too. Katrina: Yeah. Linda: So it's powerful to observe where you are and just be up front and honest with yourself. Okay, cool, well I get to see from a different perspective. I'm going, "Okay, well I own that part of myself. And now I can create change." But if you're not accepting those parts of yourself, then you can't change it. It's like this with anything in life. If you're not accepting where you are and you're not accepting a previous experience, you can't shift from it. You have to accept it. Katrina: You have to continue to receive that same lesson until you learn it. Linda: Acceptance is part of the healing process in anything in life. Super powerful. I accept that you're here. Katrina: I'm just thinking about the Bali cleanse. Linda: On the audio you're like - Katrina: We're going to have a fabulous Bali cleanse when I come over again in a few weeks. Linda: And it is my birthday in a couple of weeks. So [crosstalk 00:59:16]. How am I going to make it? Oh yeah. 34. Age is only number [crosstalk 00:59:25]. Katrina: That's why I'm like, I think I know, but I'm not [crosstalk 00:59:27]. Linda: Yeah, it's like ... sometimes I'm friends with people, like close friends, and I'm like, "How old are you?" After couple years, I'm like, "How old are you, even?" Age is just not a thing that we know. Katrina: Not at all. Well I like that expression, I don't see faces, I see souls. It's the same with age, I think. It's a soul thing, not an age thing. Linda: Guilty on consume too much learning. Yeah, if we're not taking aligned action or applying the stuff, nothing's going to happen. We've got to step into the actual taking responsibility for our actions. Katrina: And pressing fucking play. Linda: And pressing fucking play. Katrina: Or pressing go live. This is an example, right? We're really just having a conversation here that we would have by ourselves anyhow, and we do all day, every day, and how hard is it to just go live and do it as content for your audience. It's not hard. But people make it really hard. And if you wanted to build brand for example, and then maybe you're like, "I've got all these powerful, cool stuff inside of me," and you talk about it with your friends or maybe some groups or your mentor or something like that, well, that's being stuck in the cycle of I'm learning and I'm growing and I talk about amazing, interesting things with people, but are you showing the world? Are you sharing what you're here to show the world? Linda: Yeah. Katrina: Marie says, "I'm 49 and [inaudible 01:00:51] I feel 35." Yeah, well, that's what's funny right. I would never think of you by being 49 based on what the conventional definition of 49 is. But I think, even my ... what's his name? The yoga teacher? In Bali? Linda: Yeah. Katrina: So he asked me once how old I was, because I mentioned having an eight year old, and he was like, "How old are you?" And I told him, and he was like, "Holy shit, I thought you were like 30, basically." And I've gone, "How old are you?" And he's 49, right? Linda: Ah is he 49? Wow. Katrina: I was like, wow. So then we both congratulated each other on how young we look, of course. And he was kind of talking about how people don't take care of themselves and stuff. But I said to him, "But how you look at 49 and how I look at 38 is what it's meant to be like. What if that is what 49 is suppose to look like? It's just that most people are all fucked up, basically." So it's not even that you look younger or I look younger, it's that we're the ones who have actually honoured our bodies and taken care of ourselves and this is what ... 38 is not suppose to look like what most, sorry. What most women look like at 38. It shouldn't look like. Or what most men look like at 50. It shouldn't look like that. It should be, if you took care of yourself. I don't know. That's my theory. Linda: Longevity. Katrina: My theories that when we meet people when we're shocked at their age, and that they look like, Marie's a great example of this. Marie's in my inner circle. And I've met her in person, obviously, as well. Not obvious, but I have. People like that, where you think, "How can you be that age? Doesn't make nay sense." My theory is that they look the correct way that you're suppose to look for that age, it's just that everybody else is ageing super fast because they didn't take care of themselves. Linda: Yeah, and I guess, yes the numbers are ticking in our linear timeline and we get "a year older ... pardon? Katrina: That we've been in time and space. Linda: Oh, we do. There's so many different timelines. The talk about time is just a whole other live feed again. But at the end of the day, we celebrate these birthdays, when really we're just one day older, every day. Katrina: Yeah. Linda: It's actually really interesting because we're not going to feel ... We're still this infinite soul, we're still this person that's inside of this physical body that we carry for life. We're not going to feel any different in 20 years time. We're still going to be this soul - Katrina: Everybody says that. Linda: We're still going to feel the physical restrictions because the body starts to shut down, so the only difference you're going to feel is your physical limitations that you'll eventually have because your body is getting older. Katrina: Yep. Linda: So that's why its so incredibly important to look after your physical being, health and wellness is not just - Katrina: It's not negotiable. Linda: Yeah. Yeah. And it flows into mind, body, and soul. Looking after every parts of self, and we can't continue to neglect that. Even as an 80 year old, we have child. Katrina: You look fabulous for 80. You're like, "Even as an 80 year old." You're looking fucking amazing. Linda: I met this man. I live steamed about it last night. I met this beautiful man - Katrina: The guy that you shared your food with? Linda: Yes! Yes. I want to share it again, can I? Can I? In a really, really short version. I was feeling very triggered yesterday. And I was sitting outside eating my little rice crackers and my avocado, and this elderly man, he was about 70. Katrina

Katrina Ruth: No, it's not a silent movie. Sometimes I just like to sit here silently at the start of a live stream because I feel like you should talk first. You should talk first. I shouldn't have to talk first all the time. It feels unfair. You know that you gotta start arranging hair as soon as you get on a live. I've said this many times. I'm just making sure you realise. All right. Katrina Ruth: Hey Dee. Hi, how are you? Hi 11 people in my live stream already. Those are some magical double ones. Okay 10, okay 11. You'll talk? Good. Somebody else should have to talk now and then. I just feel like I was gonna sit here and not talk until somebody else talked. I actually bought this swimsuit just for this live stream, you guys. Thanks [Carly Renney 00:00:58]. Katrina Ruth: I like to be super understated with my colours and shit. I was looking at myself side on in the mirror, before I went out to the pool earlier on, out there. The public area, not this little pool. Hair to one side you look like naked. Oh well. It'll drive the viewers up. That's fine. Okay, hair to one side. Fine Leah [Steel 00:01:22]. I'm not taking direction. Katrina Ruth: Yeah, look at my fancy new banner. How cool is it? But I need it to go all the way across the screen. Ow. I just whacked my hand on a pillow. A pillar, not a pillow. Do you know what's annoying? I'm gonna tell you something that's annoying. On my phone, I need to know. Here's what I need to know. Kelly, Leah, people who tell me the things, Jamie, all of you, Andy, Dave, can you see my under boob right now? Or can you only see some of the bikini? Because this phone screws with you. Katrina Ruth: What happens is, you think that you can see ... like when I live stream in a bikini ... Ella, I've been so crazy today. You have no idea the levels of crazy that have been happening in my head. So, you're not alone in your crazy. Okay, good. Because I feel a little bit of under ... See? I don't mind ... What I mean is can you see my stomach? Or can you just see bikini? No stomach? Because on my phone, I'm safe, right? On my phone, my whole stomach is not presenting itself to the live stream. Not that it's illegal to show it or something, but sometimes when I live stream like this and then I watch the replay on my desktop ... An inch or two below. Okay, good. Katrina Ruth: I just need to know where my cutoff zone is. Because when I watch the replay on the desktop, it seems to show a lot lower down, and you don't know what's going on down here. And nobody needs to know what's going on down here. But when I feel that I'm safe to let anything happen down here ... it's starting to sound weird now. But I feel like I don't have to worry about how I'm holding myself. Do you know what I mean? Like I'm not sitting here trying to sit perfectly posed and my lower abs held in. Katrina Ruth: And then if I watch the desktop replay later, I'm like, "Well fuck you, Facebook. You're just showing everybody everything." Okay, so there was that. And then the banner thing is amazing, but I want it to go across the whole screen, and I did actually buy this bikini just for this live stream because I felt bored with all my colours. Just show it all, it'll be amazing. Oh, did you guys see that stripper that went viral? For eating pizza while she was dancing on the pole? Katrina Ruth: I saw it on the Fat Jewish's page yesterday, who I do follow him. I do find him quite amusing. And I thought it was fantastic. Always something funny happening. Good. Oh my God. You have to ... just do a Google search for stripper goes viral eating pizza. She was fully dancing, wherever she was dancing at, some place in Vegas or Hollywood or somewhere, and eating pizza while she was doing ... Well, she didn't even give a fuck. She just sat down on the bottom of the pole and ate some pizza, and then got up and lazily did a bit of a dance to, I think it was Sandman, Metallica, which made it even more amazing than it already would've been. Katrina Ruth: It was hands down the most impressive thing you've ever seen on the internet. I went and followed her on Instagram straight away after that. I was fascinated by the whole thing. I think she was just hungry, but she's now viral. Or she's smarter than all of us. So, I'm trying to think about how can I replicate that. If I eat pizza on a live stream, am I gonna go viral? Because I think that would be reasonable. Katrina Ruth: So, all right. The crazies had me full under its spell the last several days. Full under its spell. You would've loved when I worked at the alternative and burlesque fair. Yeah, I don't mind a bit of burlesque. Were you doing burlesque dancing? I feel like I could do some sort of impression of burlesque dancing right now, however I won't. You've all been saved . Katrina Ruth: Okay. I was sitting over yonder ... I'll show you yonder. Check out yonder. Hang on one second. There it is. That's yonder. [inaudible 00:05:11]. Yonder looks pretty good. This is my little house, for now. I wanted to live stream on one of those chairs that's right over there, but it would require me to put the tripod in the water, which seems like ... given my propensity for clumsy shit just randomly happening to me, seems like it wouldn't be that smart of an idea to position the tripod in the water, but I must say I was very tempted. Katrina Ruth: So, I was sitting over yonder, and I thought I was gonna do a live stream an hour ago. I even told Callie Jones, who sends out my daily ask agree newsletter for me, that I was gonna live stream. I said, "Prepare the ask agree email ready to be sent out so that you can have the live stream in," and I was conscious also that it's gonna be 5:00 PM her time. Not that we have exact working hours, but still, I kind of keep them into consideration or I try to. Katrina Ruth: And then, I got into so much bullshit about why I couldn't live stream while I was sitting out there, because there was a quite a few people out there at the pool, and then ... Oh, okay cool. Who's watching this in the shower? Okay, Al, you definitely are crazy. She gets the crazy award. Hey Terry. I'm with the waterproof Bluetooth speaker. Still, I would totally live stream from the shower if I thought I could get away with it. I mean, I could get away with it. I don't know. I haven't felt called to. If my soul desired to I would certainly do it. Katrina Ruth: But I've done it from the bath, obviously. Who hasn't live streamed out of the bath? I feel like if you've not live streamed out of the bath, or you wouldn't be willing to live stream out of the bath, you definitely couldn't get to be in the inner circle. In fact, my brother via ... I'm gonna say via now, not via. I'm Americanizing my words. In certain places, gradually. Bit by bit. Because I feel like it makes me sound cool. Katrina Ruth: So, Jamie's in the bath. You're allowed to be in the bath. You're pregnant and engaged all at the same time. It's very intense. There's lots of things going on. Congratulations to Jamie, who got engaged right as I was calling her the other night for our one on one call, and she didn't pick up the phone, and I was like, "That's odd." And I messaged her and said, "Ready when you are." And she wrote back, "Sorry, I was just being proposed to. I'll call you in a minute." And I was like, "You don't need to call me in a minute. We can rebook the call, oh my God." She's said, "No, no. I still wanna do the call." I'm like, "Of course. Of course you do." My clients are amazing. Katrina Ruth: Anyway, send her a love hot shower. So, my brother via Frank [Kernel 00:07:42] ... No, hang on. Frank Kern via my brother wants me to do a questionnaire, a questionnaire, a questionnaire that people should have to fill out if they wanna be in the inner circle, like to apply to work with me. Like I think you can even go to work with Katrina Ruth dot com, and you'll see nothing at all, but you'll see that the URL is not available, because apparently there's going to be a questionnaire there. Katrina Ruth: So, I think that I'm gonna come up with these questions. Obviously if this questionnaire ever eventuates, and one of the questions is gonna be would you or would you not be prepared to live stream in the bath. Yes, Kat, and it will be multiple choice, and the answers will be yes Kat, I would love to live stream in the bath. I live stream in the bath all the time. Why are you even asking me such a silly question? The second answer, second option will be well, I've never live streamed in the bath before, but I'm willing to consider investing in myself this way because it feels like it's finally time. And the third one will be, hell now, I will never live stream in the bath, but please send me all your free content about how to live stream like a Stepford entrepreneur. Katrina Ruth: And then there will be another TR, which would be would you be willing to live stream in the bath with me and the entire rest of the inner circle? Not because we need to get weird and all have baths together, but because it's just the kind of stuff that happens on an inner circle retreat. Just randomly. Usually with obviously some form of espresso martini. So, those would be the sort of questions, because I don't even know what sort of fucking questions I would ask if I was gonna ask people questions. I just wanna basically estimate the level of crazy. Katrina Ruth: In fact, they should have to be an essay, a short essay answer question and it will be please explain your level of crazy. Okay. Had to jump, had to dry my hands. What was this topic about? That's right. So, sitting out at the pool. I was sitting out there. I came up with numerous reasons why I wasn't able to live stream, like there was too many people around, and then the phone was gonna get hot if I set it in the sun, and then ... I don't know if that's self conscious, and it was all a bunch of bullshit, so I nearly called the live stream I'm full of shit. Katrina Ruth: And then, I decided to call it whatever I called it, which was something to do with being normal. Because then I thought, well maybe it's good for me to have a little pause in my day. I've had an intense busy day. Had like a two hour massage in the middle of it, so i guess it wasn't that intense. Had my hair done, went to yoga, had a healing session for me. Okay, I'm not sure what the intense bit was, but there was definitely a lot of shit that got done somewhere along the way. It felt like an active day of alignment and ass kicker, as they all are. Katrina Ruth: And so, I thought maybe it's good for me to rest for a little bit, and just get some sun time and get my tan on. Half of my ass is too white because I've been wearing bikinis that are all the wrong shapes and sizes. So, there's a kind of a ... what's the word? Kind of like a patchwork quilt situation of tan going on on my ass, so I thought I should maybe work on that because I had the idea that I wanna put a photo of my ass on Instagram. Katrina Ruth: I'm not gonna say why, but there's a reason. Well, okay. Because I feel like ... Okay, the reason is every time I feel like I'm in really good shape, then I say to myself, "I just wanna get into a little bit better shape, and then I'm gonna take some really cool sexy photos", and I just feel what sort of bullshit story that is, and so I should photograph my ass with the ocean behind it. Yes? Yes. I'm not sure of the logic, but it's roughly ... That's what was going through my head. Katrina Ruth: And so, I was trying to work on the tanning situation because you can't put an ass photo up with white patchwork quilt stuff going on all over it. That makes no sense. You could, but I choose not to. But I managed to sit down for like four minutes, you guys. I would say four minutes maximum, and I was bored out of my brain. I was so bored. And I was just thinking how do people do this? How do people come somewhere amazing and beautiful like this ... I get that they do jobs and stuff like that. Normal people things most of the year, so then they come here, or they come to a place like this, which is pretty much where I am all the time in some sort of amazing place, and then how they wanna rejuvenate themselves, or relax, is they sit there by the pool, all fricking day ... I've watched them. Well, I've observed enough to understand. I haven't watched them in a creepy way. Katrina Ruth: And they have some cocktails and stuff, and sometimes they read books, but mainly they just sit there until they get super burnt because they don't have naturally gifted olive skin like me. It is what it is. And I just think I would go crazy. Don't you think you would go crazy if you had to sit there all day? I mean, I'm already crazy for sure, but it kinda feels impossible to do that for more than 30 minutes. I don't know. Tell me your thoughts about this. Katrina Ruth: Can you sit by the pool and do nothing, and just kind of tan or lay there in the sun or whatever you wanna do? Because I think I've definitely done it at periods through my life. I've definitely been known to sit by a pool and not really do anything, but it's such a ... I don't know. I'd have to be ... I don't know. I think I've done it once or twice. I don't know what the circumstances were. Maybe after I did a crazy intense workout, but for sure I'll always just end up journaling, or the closest I'll come to just sitting by a pool and relaxing is listening to rock start audios from my clients, or cool WhatsApp messages from my friends. Jamie says for 44 minutes, for sure. Katrina Ruth: You're pregnant, so you're allowed to sit wherever you want, whenever you want. We're just highlighting Jamie's pregnancy all the way through this. But when I was pregnant, I probably would've sat by the pool and done nothing, or I guess sometimes if I'm super tired, for sure, I can chill there and just have a little time. But even then, you know what? I'd be listening to a fucking meditation app, or I'll sit there if I'm watching the kids play, or I'm kind of engaging with them. If I'm sitting, watching them in the pool, playing Marco Polo, or maybe I'm playing with them, but sometimes I'll just sit on the edge and watch them. That's okay. But then I'm kind of on lifeguard duty, right? Katrina Ruth: I don't know. My point is, I think that sometimes we think it's bad that we always wanna be doing something. Tara says I have ADD so it's impossible. That's kind of why I wanted to come on and talk about it, because I don't know about you, but I know for me, sometimes I get into a bit of a story in my head that there's something wrong with me. Like I should be able to relax, or I should need to relax. And then it's kind of like, well what is relaxation actually? Katrina Ruth: Because for an entrepreneur, you can be in the most beautiful place in the world, with the most incredible luxury and surrounds, and quote unquote normal person relaxation shit going on, you're gonna feel stressed out as fuck if you're not doing whatever it is you need to be doing for your soul, right? To me, the idea of sitting by the pool during the day, drinking, sounds extraordinarily stressful and distressing. It sounds like something that by the end of it, I would just be like heightened anxiety energy and wanna punch someone in the face. Katrina Ruth: I'm sure there's a situation or a circumstance, if I was with friends, but if I was with friends, we'd be having amazing growth conversations while doing that as well. So, you know, I'm sure it's not impossible but in a general sense, the idea of trying to normal for even a few minutes, it's so hard, and I just wonder how do people even live their lives like that? Katrina Ruth: Ella says I'm always watching or listening, or writing. Anytime I switch off, why would I ... I'm gonna move. Nothing to do with your comment, but I think I wanna move and sit up at my little table there, because I actually only sat right here where I am so that I could get some more sunshine time, and get a little bit more tanned up, but now the sun's gone away anyways, so I'm gonna be way happier sitting over here. All right, hang on one second. We're gonna readjust this. Katrina Ruth: So, I mean, here's the thing right? This is actually a conversation about being too much. Okay. I'm gone. Where am I? Yeah, no, I didn't just crack it at your comment, Ella, and then leave. How fricking dark is it sitting here though? Maybe I should sit over there. Maybe I will sit on that little lounger over there. How do you feel about me putting the tripod in the water? Do you think that's a good idea? Or less than a good idea? Katrina Ruth: Jamie says totally, while listening to a deep audio book or meditation. Otherwise, no more than six minutes. Six minutes. Like six minute absolutely. I think it is a good idea to put the tripod in the water, because that way the light will be on my face, because I'll be facing this way. I think we're going in, you guys. I think it's time to go in. I'm in the water. I'm in the water with the tripod. Screenshot it, send it to me as proof of my craziness. Katrina Ruth: Don't let me shake my head too hard, or my earplugs might fall out into the water. This is so precarious, because I'm having to consider not flashing you my whole hoo-ha. I do have pants on, but still. And I'm also having to consider not putting the tripod into the water. Okay. Ha-ha. All right. Now we're set. But now you don't have the beautiful pool view behind you. How can I fix that for you? I got it, I got it. Don't worry. It's under control. Thank you. The ear pods are waterproof, apparently. Katrina Ruth: Oh, that's ... Patrick said they're waterproof, which I was very upset about because I just thought that it was because I was magical that my ear pods didn't die. And then he was like, no, that's because they're waterproof. All right. Don't worry, Lisa. It's under control. I'm fixing it for you. If [Sarafina 00:17:42] comes out right now, she's gonna be laughing her head off at what I'm trying to do here. Okay. Can we do it like that? Katrina Ruth: Okay. I feel like we've mastered it. It was a team effort. Congratulations, you guys. There's only one problem. The problem is I'm sitting with one ass cheek in the air because I'm sitting on the curvy end of the lounger. Okay, if I pull it too far it's gonna fall right off into the water and then I would fall right into the deeper part of the pool in front of everybody. Check it. Deep pool. Kat. Okay. Team effort, well done. I feel much better now. I feel like I can actually get into preaching. The whole other situation was annoying me. I was a little self conscious because I was sitting super close to the fence, and I was conscious that the people who I was trying not to live stream in front of are literally on the other side of that fence. Katrina Ruth: See? This is a bullshit story, right? So much bullshit. I nearly didn't live stream at all for you guys today, because I was in so much bullshit in side of my own head of whether or not I felt like it, and whether or not I was gonna be too noisy in a public place. And then whether or not the phone was gonna overheat, which is actually a legitimate concern, because if the phone overheats the live stream dies, which did happen the other day, right at a critical moment as well. Because all moments are critical. Katrina Ruth: Okay. I feel like we could go anywhere and any place in time and space from this. You know Kat's feeling aligned when the arm gestures are more fully leashed. You're right. I didn't even do that to emphasise that. You're so right. I was feeling really stressed over there, you guys. I was feeling like not in my flow zone, and then I didn't feel good sitting at the table because it was so dark, and the light wasn't on my face. Here, I'm compromising because I love you, because if I would sit this way, the lighting would be better on my face, but to show my love and care for my community, I'm sitting this way so that you can see some of my pool view. Katrina Ruth: I'm so glad you did, says Liz. I need some Katrina love real talk to keep my momentum going. All right, all right. Here's the truth, then. Here's the truth about the truth. We shouldn't have to fucking normal, either. But I shouldn't even use it as a live stream title topic. It's a stupid topic title, because what is normal even mean and who even cares? It's hardly announcement worthy that I made a title that says I can't even normal for a few minutes. Who gives a fuck whether I can normal or not? Katrina Ruth: The point is, why do we analyse these things, right? Why do we analyse it? Why do I sit out there at the pool going, oh well I should relax and just chill in the sun for a little bit because that's what you do after you've been out and about all day. And then I sit there for 10 minutes and I start to feel like ... I started to feel wound up, right? I started to feel a little bit anxious, I started to feel like ... I don't know, just kind of shitty at the world, and then I was starting to get annoyed at people talking around me, and I was feeling like, I don't know. The day felt like it was slipping away from me, right? Katrina Ruth: Like I felt like I was slipping away from my flow zone. So, earlier I said I've had an intense day. Well, I got up at seven. [Sarafina 00:20:45] arrived last night, my nanny. So, the kids are off with her this morning so I wasn't in mommy mode this morning. So, I got up, did my journaling, went to yoga, had my hair done whilst writing my blog which I posted. And then wrote on one of my books actually. Did some writing for one of my books around manifestation, and soulmate life, and then had a healing kind of coaching session for me. And then had a massage for an hour and a half, and then came back here. Katrina Ruth: But I did a whole bunch of other things, had some people, and do stuff on social media and team projects and stuff that we're working on. So, it kinda felt like a day of ... It was all structured around what I wanna do, but I also did all my shit that I always wanna do. Well, that's everyday anyway. But, then something inside of me is like, oh, well it's 3:00 PM in the afternoon, or it's 2:30 in the afternoon, and so that's a time when you should have a little rest, right? Katrina Ruth: Or if you've been at it since 6:30 AM and then you come home at three, then you should have some pause time. And many times I do. Many times I'll come home in the afternoon, or I'll have some sort of period like right now, before I'm gonna go pick up my kids from the kids club that they're hanging out at, where it's kind of like oh, this is the opportune time to meditate, or to have a nap, or to have just some peace and stillness, or maybe some reading time, but it's not like a fucking rule, right? And I think we so easily get caught up in rules in our heads that I should be able to relax, or I should be able to sit by the pool and just chill in the sun, and somehow prove to who, that I'm a normal person. Katrina Ruth: Like, who are you even trying to prove it to, right? But then you go into this weird thing of if you keep engaging in that, or you keep engaging in anything basically that's not actually flow, not actually what you want, because you're caught up in a story that this would make me a normal person, or a better person, or maybe a better mom, or better partner, or a better entrepreneur if I do these different things that other people are doing, or that have somehow developed an expectation like they do, then you just slip further and further away from flow. Katrina Ruth: And then you go into kind of resistance, and then you go into kind of a downward energy spiral where, for me, I know for sure if I would've stayed just sitting and kind of chilling, what I was doing was I'd already checked in on my team, and I'd checked in on anything important that I needed to respond to, so I was kind of jumping in and out of Facebook and Instagram, and that wasn't feeding my soul at all. It was very purposeless. Like I was actually starting to do that thing where I just checked if there was anything interesting in my notifications, and there wasn't, and then like two minutes later, I've jumped back on again. Like I'm wondering did an announcement about the fricking second coming of Jesus get put onto Facebook in the last two minutes? Katrina Ruth: And so, you're going down this little spiral pathway, and for sure, if I would've kept sitting out there, I would've basically kept doing that. Like refreshing my emails, or refreshing Facebook, or whatever. And I had my book with me, but I was disconnecting from my soul because I wasn't actually following soul flow. So, then I wasn't interested in reading the book, or reading anything on Kindle on my phone that would've been maybe uplifting or soul empowering, and if I would've continued down that, I would've probably eventually come back here and then probably been flat and down in energy, not done this live stream, maybe had a nap or something, which is fine, but not actually what was available or coming through me for today. Katrina Ruth: Because what was coming through me as I walked back to the villa earlier on, after doing all my shit from earlier, was I feel called to live stream. I feel like I'm gonna live stream. And then I went out there and made a whole story of why I couldn't, and then I was like, "Oh, well I'll just relax." And so, essentially I said no to soul, right? And when we say no to soul, when we say no to what's inside of us, then we automatically dial down all good things and all positive things. Katrina Ruth: So, really in a real sense, we actually dialled down abundance, ability to receive because we're saying no to soul. When you say yes to soul, life says yes to you. The flip side is also true. When you say no to soul, life starts to say no to you, or it just kind of like, oh, I see how you're not answering the call inside of you, you're not believing and trusting that you can say yes to whatever's coming through you, and that it always works when you say yes to soul. So, your faith is clearly like dial it down for today, so we're gonna dial down your ability to receive. Katrina Ruth: Where are you watching from? Are you right there behind that curtain? Holy shit, I thought she was in the gym. Seraphina: I'm sorry. Katrina Ruth: Well, you better come out and do a guest appearance or they're just gonna legitimately think I'm a crazy person. I just saw Seraphina jump on. I totally thought you'd already gone to the gym, you just gave me the biggest fright of my life. Seraphina: No, it's not a good moment to share. Katrina Ruth: Send the love hot shower to Seraphina Seraphina: Hi. Katrina Ruth: Here she is. Fresh from ... It's okay. Nobody wants to see their own face super close up. Seraphina: Hi. Katrina Ruth: She's fresh from Australia. Seraphina: Yeah. Katrina Ruth: I thought she'd already left for the gym. Seraphina: No, I've scared you twice now. Katrina Ruth: That's good, you gave me a nice little adrenaline boost. I thought I was all alone. Seraphina: Bye, I'm going to the gym. Katrina Ruth: See, I like how my team are like, she's right here. She's on the other side of the door. The door's closed and the curtain's closed. That's why I didn't know she was in there. And she's still watching me live streaming from inside the villa. Even though I'm actually right here in the flesh. Real. If you ever hang out with me in person, or you come to an event where I'm there, or we go to dinner together and I start live streaming, I'm gonna be very offended if you don't watch me live streaming on your own device, even if you're sitting right next to me, all right? Just so you know. Katrina Ruth: And also, the other day ... Actually, I handed over my Instagram to Sarafina two days ago and I've appointed her in charge of making it look fabulous, which she's already doing a very good job of. It's like fast shifts, as things always are, but I said to her, "Well, you can grab content that I post on Facebook and repurpose it to use it for the Instagram posts. Just whatever you think is good." And then I said, "Well, I'm not sure if you read all my content every day on Facebook, but I hope so." And she was like, "Of course I read all your content every day." Katrina Ruth: I was like, "Good, I'm glad we clarified that." It would've been extremely distressing if not. So, what were we talking about before that? All right. Dialling down abundance. Dialling down receiving. Dialling down flow. Dialling down connectedness. Basically ramping your energy down as well, and for me that's probably one of the things I guess I value the highest. I want to have great energy, I wanna feel lit up, I wanna feel inspired with my life and my day. I wanna feel like I'm charged from within and that I'm accessing creative power, and ideas flow, and source, and ability to make fast decisions. Katrina Ruth: And so, when I sit out there for 10 minutes, it seems like such a silly little thing I guess, in one sense, to be turning into an entire topic of conversation. Like, whatever Kat, big deal. Get over it. Like you don't need to make a whole song and dance about it. But actually, it was literally like deleting me? Depleting me of all the source of good stuff that I'd build up throughout the day, because all through the day I was saying yes to soul, right? It was my first day totally, really having the day to myself in a week since I came back to see my kids, and obviously I've had an amazing time with them, but I've had less time just for me. Katrina Ruth: So, today was really like okay, today I'm gonna get the kids back in the afternoon ... Actually I thought it'd be sooner than this, but little bit later now, so after this. And then, I thought up until that point in the early afternoon, I'm really just going to give myself what I need. I'm gonna get my yoga on, I'm gonna have a massage. Obviously I'm gonna do my writing, my journaling, and all my shit that I like to do. And so, I did all of that, and all of those things are like feeding into my own soul bank account, so to speak, right? Katrina Ruth: My own emotional bank account and my own energy stores, and my flow stores. So, I'm just being elevated all throughout the day, even though I'm pretty occupied all throughout the day. And then in literally five to ten minutes of sitting still and doing nothing, and trying to be like a good normal person, I start to lose all of that. My energy goes down, I feel like a bit grumpy, and I start to feel a bit shitty, I start to feel like maybe I won't go to the gym after all, because I'm basically thinking I'll go workout after this, and then it will be time to go get the kids. They've got some activities on, they don't want to come till a certain time. Right? Katrina Ruth: And so, I could feel that if I would've bought into that, I would've come back here more flattened down, probably eating some chocolate or something, which again, is not the end of the world, but it's kind of like a whole different pathway would be opened to me, and I would feel like I kinda can't be [inaudible 00:29:03] of going to the gym, and I don't really have to walk to go get the kids. I can get a taxi. And it's just kind of like you creating yourself into a whole different person, right? Katrina Ruth: Whereas because I honoured soul, and I was finally like, I got my ass up, I audioed Kelly. I was like, "Hey, if you haven't sent the daily ask agree out, you know what? I'm gonna go live after all", and I walked back here and I go live. And even then it still took me like 20 minutes or up until now, 20, 25 minutes, to actually get into flow. Now, I know, I was still doing an okay job of presenting, and I think I was being mildly funny earlier on in the live stream, but I wasn't really connected, and those of you who know me well, or even if you haven't known me for very long, you can feel my energy, you'll see difference now, right? From at the start of the live. Katrina Ruth: It took me 20 to 25 minutes to get connected to soul and into alignment and flow, and like Jamie said, the big hand gestures start coming out because I'm happy and I'm in flow. And so now, when I get off this live, well firstly I created content for my business and for my audience. To me, that's like a bonus, right? Because actually, that's not the reason I message or preach or teach. I do what I need to do for me, but I'm happy that I'm creating content and that I'm sharing a message that's gonna serve you in some way, or inspire you in some way. Katrina Ruth: It's sales activity as well. Actually, [Mim 00:30:12], you can drop the comment about Rich Hot Empire, so I'll remind you about Rich Hot Empire, my six week one on one intensive, which is open currently for April registrations. Remind you to PM me about that if you've been thinking about working with me one on one and I'll get you the whole overview of what we do in that six weeks. What it means to work with me one on one, and have me holding your hand and kicking your ass all at the same time, which is confusing but not really. It's just perfect. Katrina Ruth: So, I'm doing sales activity, right? There it is. There's the comment. Thank you, Mim. You're always on the ball. So, read that comment afterwards, right? So, just putting my message out there, putting my content out there, doing a call to action for those people who are feeling like you know what? It is fricking time to go all in. It is time to say yes to my soul. It is time to do it in six weeks working with Kat what most people will do in two weeks. Tell me more about Rich Hot Empire. If that's you, message me over on my personal Katrina Ruth page, and I'll get you all the details. Katrina Ruth: So, I'm doing content, I'm delivering value, I'm inspiring and empowering, I'm entertaining a little bit, and I'm selling, and I'm empowering and energising myself. And then after I get off this live stream, do you think I'm gonna be like, "Oh well, I'm all flat and down now. I need to sit around and eat fucking cookies before I go and get up and get my kids"? Or do you think I'm gonna walk over to the gym and have a great workout, and then probably be in the flow zone so that I'm probably gonna walk to go and pick up the children and enjoy the sunset as I walk down that way? And so on and so forth. And then be in a happy high vibe mood when I pick up my kids and engage with them, right? Katrina Ruth: And it's this whole different pathway. Like I was saying, that's open to me, just because I acknowledged that it didn't feel good for me to just sit around for five or ten minutes, and I made a choice to do something about it instead of buying into a story that ... Strut. I'll dance. I'll dance and prance while I listen to music. Actually, last night the kids and I walked home through the back alley ways, which I know this whole area so well. It's just like a second home to me. But we walked through this little dark back streets, late at night, because it was like one way and we couldn't get the car back. Normally I wouldn't make the kids walk home at night, but we did. Katrina Ruth: And we were dancing along the way to JoJo Siwa, and my little four year old son Nathan, was singing all the words to JoJo Siwa. It was hilarious. And also dancing to Havana. Havana-do-do-do ... Which I think I'm gonna dance and listen to again because it's a very sensual song, and one of my journaling intentions currently, and one of my decisions inside of my head, is that I'm becoming more sensual and sexy every day, by the day. Maybe that's why I bought the bikini as well, because it's kind of like, pretty. Katrina Ruth: So, thanks for that reminder. So, I think you got my point, right? Like really, it's so easy to tell ourselves a story that this little thing doesn't make a difference. Like, oh, I'm not really feeling in my vibe. Okay, I'm by myself at the pool so it's pretty easy to get up, right? Nobody else is depending on me to sit there, but there's many times in life where we might be at, I don't know, like maybe at a party, or a social event, or maybe even a meeting or engaging in a conversation with someone, or getting kind of reactive to what people who message you on social media, or thinking that you gotta do certain things in your business to create results and to create success. Katrina Ruth: And what's happening is you're ramping yourself down, down, down, because your soul is not saying yes to that, but your logical brain, so-called logical brain, because really logic should come from intuition. So, your head though, or some part of you, a fear based mind is saying, "Oh, well I should do this", or, "Oh well, it would be rude to say no to that person", or, "Oh well, it will be unprofessional if I don't ... if I went and did my own thing instead of responding and dealing with other people's things", and so on and so forth. Katrina Ruth: And you think maybe that you're being a good person, or a good entrepreneur, or a good mom, or that you're normaling, and that you should do that for whatever reason. Or whatever it is, but actually you're dialling down abundance. And you're dialling down receiving, and you're literally depleting and draining yourself of your natural energy source, and the natural energy source is and only can be you being connected to your own self. Katrina Ruth: So, my question to you today is, what music should I dance to while walking to pick up children? Firstly, give me your songs. But secondly, what do you need to do to connect to soul? It would be really easy for me to say oh, I don't need to do a live stream when I've already done a bunch of content earlier on in the day, and the conditions weren't really working to do it where I was at, and oh it's not that big a deal, I can just leave it. Maybe I'll live stream later on today. And it's not a big deal, except that it is in the sense that this is actually something that feeds me, and fuels me on a soul level. Katrina Ruth: So, investing this 30 minutes, or 40 minutes into live streaming, it's super cool that it's achieving all this cool stuff in my business, messaging, selling, providing value, connecting and conversing, which I like to do as well, and having engagement with you. That's really cool, but like I said, it's a bonus. The real reason to do it, and the real reason to do anything is because it's something that my soul says yes to, and in fact my entire business has been built on me really just leaning in ever more to things that my soul say yes to. Says yes to. And giving myself permission to do those things, and to allow them to not be an after thought, but to allow them to actually be the building blocks of a multimillion dollar per year empire. Which is what I've created just from following soul flow. Katrina Ruth: You know, earlier today, I posted my blog, and obviously it was a couple of thousand words as it always is ... Okay, it's hair rearranging time. Just in case you didn't know. Okay, we're good. Yeah, I post on my blog, and I'm pretty happy with my blog today. You should go check it out on my page around how to drop back in and connect to your soul when fear or self worth shit basically is kind of ruling you, and this guy who's a new connection, who came through [inaudible 00:35:51] group as a connection, who seems like a lovely guy and he messaged me and said hello and everything when we became friends. Katrina Ruth: But he commented on the blog and he was like, winky face, or smile or whatever. This would be great as a video. You know, it would be even better as a video, or something ... didn't say it would be even better. But said something about you could've said all of that in a video, smile winky face. That kind of like, that would be better or that would be more helpful for people, or it's easier to consume in a short video or something like that. And I was just like, whoa, dude ... I didn't say dude. But I did comment back and I was like, "Or, I could just fucking be myself and this is how I built a multimillion dollar empire, so thank you, but no thank you. Don't tell me how to do a better job of being me." Katrina Ruth: Ni haven't even read all these comments back, but he's kind of like, "Oh no, I'm not trying to attack you. I just think you could've said all that in a short video", or whatever. I'm like, "Oh my God, you so don't get this", right? But you get this. But maybe you're not living according to this, which is why I'm bring up that story and saying this. Thing is, it's not following the rule so of the online space to write a long blog post and post it every single day, 365 days a year. It's also not following the rules of how to supposedly build a following, or sell shit online, to do a live stream that goes for this long nearly every day, but also I'm so rambly, like I just talk about so much irrelevant stuff, or I jump all over the place, or I'm telling silly jokes or whatever. Katrina Ruth: None of the way that I do content follows any sort of formula, or any sort of rule book, and it actually breaks all the rules, but all I've done is gradually more and more along the way, given myself permission to just let whatever's in me come out. And the point that I was trying to explain to him, which he just didn't get, and I was just writing back quickly while I was waiting for my massage anyway, so I might go back and do it properly later, is no, it doesn't fucking matter if I could've said all of that in a short video. Yes, I could, yes, thank you for saying that people would like to watch me on a video. I appreciate the compliment. Katrina Ruth: But that's not the point. The point is that that message came out in the form that it did. It came out as a long blog post. This is coming out as a rambly live stream, which is gradually getting more and more into flow. And all the other things that I do are coming out however they come out, and I don't question it. I don't edit it. I don't filter it. I don't worry about if it's good enough or who's gonna be listening or watching, or what makes one live stream better than another. I just let the message be the message, and if you wanna build a business and a life based on you doing your purpose work, making money doing what you love, getting paid to just be you, literally just getting to wake up each day, open your mouth, your heart and your soul, and whatever comes out, comes out. Katrina Ruth: Then it's going to require you to say yes to all of that on repeat, not just when it feels like oh, that is a good topic, or that feels like you know, safe or a good idea or whatever. But every day, whatever's coming out is what gets to come out, right? And so, that in turn depends on all these different moments throughout your day, where you're either saying yes to soul and you're getting your ass up, and you're pressing go live even though you don't really feel in the zone, which is how I felt. Like, ugh, I feel like I've lost my live stream vibe a little bit again. Ugh, it's gonna be clunky, and then it freaking was, but now here we are, right? Katrina Ruth: Or it felt that way to me. Whether or not to you. It felt uncomfortable, and I felt self conscious for the first 20 minutes of the live stream. So, you can either ... I don't know whatever I was saying just then. You can either say no to the little messages and the flow that's coming through you because you feel like, oh, I don't really feel like it today. Or it feels a bit awkward, or maybe that's a silly topic, or somebody said that I shouldn't write one blog post and it would be better on a short video, or my hair doesn't look good, or whatever story you're telling yourself for the day. Katrina Ruth: But not only you're not gonna not gonna not create the business and the life that you wanted, that you're actually destined to, because you're not saying yes to soul, but you're really, truly gonna ramp down all those other things that we spoke about before. It's like there's a big old abundance switch on the wall, and you're just like no thank you. Disconnect, right? So, if you wanna connect to the abundance switch ... Hey Red. If you wanna connect into receiving, if you wanna connect into freaking money making and results based on you being you, guess what? You're gonna have to be you. There's really no other way to do it. Katrina Ruth: But also, and I feel more importantly, you wanna be in flow for your life, and lit up for your life, and feel happy, and feel energised, and feel like you can show up for the important people in your life, and give them the best parts of you. The only way to do that is for you to give yourself the best parts of you as well, which means that if you're a creative person like me, who has a high desire to be seen and heard, and to express and share their message with the world, then honour it. Fricking honour it, and make space for it, and just choose that you're not gonna buy into stories that now is not a good time, I don't feel like it, the lighting's not good, I feel self conscious, or it doesn't feel like a good topic, or it just didn't kind of work out today. Katrina Ruth: Here's how to know, right? It's very simple. When you feel like that kind of tug or that call from within, like say this thing, post this thing, or create this offer to sell, or do this live stream, or reach out to that person, you feel a sense ... it might be small, but you feel a sense of expansion and upliftedness, even at the idea of it. You can feel the vibe of how it's gonna elevate and expand you. And then on the other hand, if you buy into some sort of mindset of I can't, or I shouldn't, or it's not right, or it's not appropriate, or it's not time, you can feel it. You feel a slight compression. Katrina Ruth: You might be really good at ignoring it and telling yourself it's fine, but you know, right? You can feel yourself shrink a little bit, or go into contraction a little bit, and it feels sad and heavy. And it's not just about that one moment. What's the cumulative affect of all of that, right? What is the awful cumulative affect of day in and day out saying no to your soul? It's sadness, it's depression, it's binge eating or binge whatever else, it's addiction, it's sabotage, it's anger and resentment, and frustration at other people around you, it's ... Katrina Ruth: Well, not making the fricking money and doing your soul purpose work and getting paid for it. It's not having the body you want, it's not having the sex life you want, it's not sleeping properly, all these things are connected. I know there's many other things that go into each of those other things I just listed as well. But honestly, one way to really activate everything working is be in fucking alignment. Say yes to your soul, right? Katrina Ruth: So, then the flip side is that the cumulative effects of saying yes to your soul, even though you feel silly a lot of time, or it doesn't feel convenient, or it doesn't feel as you're getting the result that you wanted straight away or whatever, like that. But the cumulative affect over time is you create the life you fucking want, but you also get to experience and live in all the emotions that we all desire. You know, anything that you're thinking about that you think you want, like money, a big following, your shit selling, having a certain type of body, or relationship, or life, or whatever, that's only ... Katrina Ruth: That's a reflection of ... or what you really want is beyond that, right? What you really want is underneath that, it's the way you wanna feel, the emotions. So, we wanna feel fulfilled, we wanna feel lit up, we wanna feel happy, we wanna feel free, we wanna feel expansive, we wanna feel proud of ourselves, and whatever else comes up for you. And all of those emotions are available to you right now. Right now, right? Katrina Ruth: You can literally access all of that. You can actually access it without doing anything. Without fucking live stream or going to the gym, but it's gonna be a hell of a lot easier to just say yes to the guidance that's coming through you, because all of this stuff, those little messages from inside saying do this, say that, put that out there, that's actually just your sign post. That's the fricking blueprint for accessing super flow and accessing all things. Katrina Ruth: All right? So, there we go. That's our flow conversation for today. And here's what else. Rich Hot Empire, I did mention it before. This is such a powerful transformative programme. I've taken so many amazing badass people through this programme. It's six weeks with me one on one. We're starting April 30, so registration is currently open. Places are already selling. I believe we've sold ... I've only opened it a few days ago, and I haven't really spoken about it in a big way. I haven't been doing as many live streams, actually, and talking as much while I've been back with my little kids the last few days, but I think we've already got five or six places filled. Katrina Ruth: It will sell out. It's 20 places only. It always sells out. So, there's still about 10 days before we begin. But definitely you wanna be messaging me about it right away if it's something that is speaking to you, and also that we can obviously start that conversation. I can give you ... If you message me over on my personal page, my personal Katrina Ruth page, is better. I just prefer to communicate there. You can message here as well and I'll still answer you. But I just go on my personal page a lot more. Right? Katrina Ruth: And I'll send you the overview. So, what it is is a six week structured, plus six weeks one on one with me. So, the way that I do this one on one intensive is I have created six weeks of structured content going through everything you need to know to call in and build your core tribe, to create a multi seven figure empire and beyond, selling low right through to high end products. And to find a way to make money doing what you love completely on your terms. Katrina Ruth: This works on repeat. I've been running this programme since April of 2016. It is the only programme that I run on repeat. I always create new things, but Rich Hot Empire is so fucking good, and the results are so fricking epic, I have clients who jump in there who are completely at ground zero when they start out. Sometimes not even a Facebook page, and I've had several people who are already doing over seven figures a year, over a million dollars a year when they became Rich Hot Empire clients. Katrina Ruth: And it doesn't matter that people are at such different starting places. It's about who you are as a person. And people who come into Rich Hot Empire and say yes to their soul, and let me kick their ass into alignment and massive fucking action, the results are fucking phenomenal. We've got crazy awesome money results, but more importantly, I think, I believe, and I feel like you'll agree, alignment results, shifts, expansion, all those things, right? Katrina Ruth: So, often times people come out and they'll share their biggest takeaway, or their testimonial, I guess. And it's generally they'll say something like this is totally not what I expected, but holy shit this has changed my life. It's the most transformative six weeks ever, and just a whole bunch of really cool shit. It is an incredible programme that fucking works. If you have been thinking about working with me one on one, and maybe you're not quite ready to jump into the inner circle, which is my ongoing 12 months, highest level mentoring one on one, Rich Hot Empire is about place to start. It's the best place to start. Katrina Ruth: And then some people continue on into the inner circle after that. But either way, what we're doing in those six weeks is honestly more than what most people would do in a two year period online, and I can say that with certainty, because most people are fucking around watching freaking cat videos, or freaking out about whether Mark Zuckerberg's gonna shut Facebook down. Or, just doing a whole bunch of shit that maybe somebody's told you you've gotta do to stand out online and to build a following and get paid, and it's not true. Katrina Ruth: So, what I do is I come in and I show you exactly what to do, and exactly how to do it from the structure and strategy side of things, take you fully behind the scenes in my business, give you so many fricking resources. Everything from how to create your office, how to launch, how to build your following, any kind of how thing that you might wanna think about, is covered. And you get access to all that content for life. And if there was anything that wasn't covered, I would create it for you as a training, or my team would as well so you have support through my team there as well. Facebook ads training, funnels, I mean, I don't even know or remember all the stuff, right? Katrina Ruth: You'll never even use all the stuff that's in there, but what I did is I created everything for my private clients so that you've got it all there, so that we can then launch most of it and focus on the deep inner transformative work, so that's what you and I will be doing together one on one, through our one on one calls, but also you get daily unlimited access to me over my private client channel, so we do daily audios, messages, whatever you need to talk to me about. Katrina Ruth: Lisa says, "Rich Hot Empire is amazing." Thank you. Yeah. And so that gives you a bit of an overview of it. And so I wanted to create a structured programme, and I did create structure so that when you're coming into this, you're gonna really know like yes, all my questions are answered and I'll be showing you exactly what to do and how to do it on the building of the business side of things, but also the one on one, right? And the one on one side of things is unlimited access to me. Katrina Ruth: You're also getting to go into a mastermind with my other private Rich Hot Empire clients, and we do weekly mastermind hot seat calls as well. And there's other things additionally to that. So, what you should do, is if you wanna know more, if you have thought about working with me one on one, or you're feeling like you're thinking about it right now, message me. I'll get you a proper overview of everything that goes on in that six weeks, and then obviously we can talk about costs and all that good stuff as well. Katrina Ruth: Have an amazing rest of the day wherever you are in the world. Go and do something that your soul is saying yes to. When you say yes to your soul, life says yes to you. And don't forget, life is now. Press play.

Some people would view the loss of a leg as a tragedy, or at least, a significant obstacle to pursuing the path they’d painstakingly planned out for themselves. For Melissa Stockwell, my guest on this week’s episode of #WeGotGoals, losing a limb offered a second chance at a lifelong aspiration. As a young gymnast, she’d always dreamed of going to the Olympics. She practiced twice a day. Her walls were covered in Team USA posters, her entire life decorated in red, white, and blue. Her love for her country eventually took her to the Army and to Iraq, where in 2004 a roadside bomb took her leg. While recovering at Walter Reed Army Medical Center, she learned about the U.S. Paralympics. That, she knew, was where she needed to be. “Here I was, an athlete with a physical disability, and I was being told that I could compete on the world’s biggest athletic stage and represent a country that I defended over in Iraq,” she says. “What greater honor would it be to wear that USA uniform on that stage?” Stockwell picked a sport—swimming—and trained hard. She made it to her first Games in 2008 in Beijing. The experience was incredible but the results, not what she’d hoped. So she transitioned to triathlon, stayed dedicated, and won a bronze medal at the 2016 Rio Paralympic Games. Standing next to her teammates on the podium—Americans took all three medals—was the ultimate payoff for all her challenges and sacrifices, she says. And it was all the more meaningful for having come after another major feat—having her son, Dallas. “To be in Rio on that podium as a medal-winning mom was really just really one of my greatest accomplishments,” she says. “I mean, when I think of that moment, I think about everything that went into it and just how amazing it was to be there.” Her path to the medal stand offers one compelling example of the way she digs deep to find the positive in any situation. But it’s far from the only way she’s wrested control of her own narrative, turning challenges into opportunities to transcend them. Sure, balancing training, speaking gigs, her role with the Dare2Tri Paratriathlon Club (which she co-founded), and two kids under the age of 4 often proves tricky. But rather than bemoan her lack of time, she maximizes every 15 minutes, and draws a deeper motivation to push ahead from her children and the athletes who come through the Dare2Tri program. Of course, training comes with its peaks and valleys, days of exceeding your expectations interspersed with not-so-great rides, swims, and runs. Each day, she pinpoints one thing she did that drew her closer to her goal, even if was as simple as getting off the couch. And yes, she’ll be 40 by the time of the next Paralympics, in Tokyo. Her competitors are far younger, have fewer responsibilities. But age has brought her wisdom and a desire to show her children—she now has two, including eight-month-old Millie—that hard work pays off. So she’ll do everything she can to make it there. We won’t be surprised to see her on the podium again in 2020. Hear more about how Stockwell is working to involve women in the sport as chair of the USA Triathlon Women’s Committee, what tips she has for other busy moms trying to achieve big goals, and the special way she commemorates the day she lost her leg on this week’s episode. And if you like what you hear, subscribe anywhere you get your podcasts and leave us a rating or a review on Apple Podcasts.   --- Episode transcript: JAC: Welcome to #WeGotGoals, a podcast by aSweatLife.com. I'm Jeana Anderson Cohen; with me,I have Kristen Geil and Cindy Kuzma. CK: Good morning, Jeana. KG: Hi Jeana. JAC: Good morning. And Cindy, you did the interview this week with Melissa Stockwell. Isn't that right? CK:Yeah, I'm Melissa Stockwell is a Paralympic triathlete. And she's also a veteran, she started an organization called Dare2Tri that helps other athletes with disabilities get into the sport of triathlon and fall in love with it as much as she did. She's an incredible guest and I was so excited to talk with her. KG:Melissa lost her leg in Iraq and throughout it all she's remained incredibly positive. How was she able to do so with such a traumatic experience in her past? CK:Yeah. I wonder how much of that is sort of integral to her personality and how much of it she learned along the way, But she really focuses a lot on finding the silver lining in difficult experiences. In fact, there's a great story about how she kind of has turned the loss of her leg around. I don't want to give too much away because it's, um, pretty fantastic the way she's turned that into a positive for herself, but really she just focuses on finding whatever she can to kind of make the story her own out of whatever obstacles she's faced and overcome. And you know, you can't control everything in life she talks about, but you can control your reaction to it. And she has really tried to do that to make her reaction in a positive one. JAC:And along the way, going through that experience in them becoming an athlete, she adopted this sort of interesting way to set and achieve big goals. Can you talk about how she uses small steps to achieve big goals? CK:Sure. Like many of the accomplished athletes we have on the podcast, you have to have a big goal, right? Like you want to be a Paralympian, an Olympian, and you want to be the best in the world, but it's pretty hard to just set your sights on that and then wait for it to happen. Right. You have to do a lot of work along the way and she talks about how she every day just tries to do whatever she can to achieve that goal. And then at the end of the day she writes down one thing she did that took her closer to her goal. So even if things didn't go exactly the way she planned, even if she had a run that wasn't great, at least she got out there and ran or she did something she didn't want to do and that took her a step closer to our goal and then she can reflect on all of those accomplishments later on and realize how much hard work she really did and how she's prepared to achieve what she set out to achieve. KG:And her life would be easy enough if all she had to do was train for triathlons or whatever sport she's competing in. But of course, that's never the only thing you're doing with your life at one time. There's always other things that demand your attention and your time. So how is she able to manage her priorities with a family and with a career? CK:So, she definitely has a lot more responsibilities now with the family, but that actually has helped her connect to a deeper motivation to her sport so she can't always do as much training, but she is really motivated to stay active and to show her daughter and all the other women out there that you can continue to have a career and a full life and be an accomplished athlete. So I think connecting to that really helps her continue to achieve. JAC: And here’s Cindy, with Melissa. CK: All right. This is Cindy Kuzma from aSweatLife and I am here on the #WeGotGoals podcast with Melissa Stockwell, who’s a Paralympian, and the co-founder of the Dare2Tri program. Melissa, thank you so much for joining us on the #WeGotGoals podcast. MS:Thank you for having me. Excited to be here. CKNow. Melissa, you just came back from a couple of trips I know, including to Sarasota for the American Championships. Is that right? MS:I did. I, um, in my first race back kind of post having my baby Millie who is eight months old today. So yes, I was down in Sarasota doing a race and it went quite well, much better than I expected it to. CK:That's always awesome when we have those victories when we don't even expect them. Right, right. Exactly. So Melissa, I know you were an athlete from an early age, you were a gymnast growing up. Right? MS:I was. So I was a big gymnast, so it was kind of my definitely my thing growing up, you know, I think as all young aspiring gymnasts do you know, dreamt of going to the Olympics and being an Olympic gymnast and had posters all over my room and you know, red, white and blue everywhere and gymnastics before school after school. And that was definitely what I hoped to do. CK:Yeah. I often think that people who have that early experience of being an athlete that really often shapes the way you think about goals and opportunities for the rest of your life. Do you think that that was the case for you? MS:I definitely think it helped. You know, obviously when I was younger I had had two legs, I had both of my legs. I didn't really know any different, I’d always been kind of goal-driven, so wanting to dream big and reach high and my parents kind of let me do that, which I think has shaped my life kind of this many years later and as I've grown up it's kind of allowed me to do, to do just that and just to keep going with it. CK:So how did you get from those early days to Iraq? What, what led you to service and what goal did you hope to accomplish there? MS:So I realized at a young age kind of, you know, how lucky we were to live in the country that we live in and always wanting to be in the military and to be in the Army. So I made that a reality in college when I joined ROTC and then, and when I graduated in 2002, I was commissioned as an officer and two years later I ended up being deployed over to Iraq. So, you know, I joined, I joined the army, I mean pretty short and simple. I love our country. I wanted to give back. That was really my, my main reason for, for putting the uniform on CK:And I know it didn't take too long after that before you had a change of plans. I know it was April 13th, 2004 when your convoy hit an IED and, and you lost your leg and we're talking now a little bit before that day in 2018 and I know you have a special tradition for our commemorating that, which maybe we'll talk about later. But what I'd kind of love to hear about first is, is how you shifted your goals and your mindset while you were recovering. Talk to me a little bit about the moment you kind of set your sights on the Paralympics and what effect having a big, audacious goal like that had on your rehab, both physically and mentally. MS:So. So after I lost my leg, I wasn't, you know, I was 24 years old, didn't really know what my life would be and I did all my recovery at Walter Reed Army Medical Center and being there and being surrounded by so many other soldiers who had worse injuries than my own kind of helped me realize how lucky I was. So I wanted to kind of live my life for them and that those, that no longer could and have given that ultimate sacrifice. So after I learned to walk and wear a prosthetic, I learned about the US Paralympics and you know, having dreamt to go on to the Olympics as a young child and that never happened and it was almost like I had a second chance because here I was an athlete with a physical disability and I was being told that I could compete on the world's biggest athletic stage. MS:Represent a country that I defended over in Iraq. And I mean, what greater honor would it be to wear that USA uniform on that stage. So a dream was born pretty quickly of wanting to be a Paralympian and you know, I kinda set right to it, you know, somehow, some way I want it to be a Paralympian and it was kind of a natural goal I feel, you know, I think just having been an athlete growing up, been an athlete in the past, it was just kind of something that fell into my lap and the realization that if I worked hard enough and picked a sport and dedicated myself to it, that I could actually get there. CK:and, and you made it not once but twice in two different sports and I know you took home the bronze medal in triathlon in Rio in an American sweep, which was so incredible. And those are just two of the many things you've accomplished since then. So this kind of feels like a good time to transition into the first big question we always ask on #WeGotGoals and that is what is one big goal you've achieved, why it was important to you and how you got there? MS:So definitely when I think about the past many years, the one that stands out is winning a bronze medal at the 2016 Rio Paralympic Games in the sport of triathlon. It was— everything that came with it. Everything from losing my leg over in Iraq to competing in the 2008 Paralympic Games in swimming, but not doing as well athletically as I thought they could, and then continuing with it and turn into the sport of triathlon, having my son Dallas and then trying to come back from that to make it to Rio, kind of everything that went that moment. All the dedication, the hard work, the sacrifice of having to be away sometimes from my family for training, for racing, the team that I was with, my coaches, my, my mentors, my family, everyone that kind of believed in me to get there, to be in Rio, on that podium as a medal winning mom was really just really one of my greatest accomplishments. I mean, when I think of that moment, I think about everything that went into it and just how amazing it was to be there. CK:I'm getting chills hearing you talk about it. We've talked to several elite athletes on this podcast and I'm always so curious about how they approach goals because it seems so overwhelming to say, like, my goal is to win a Paralympic medal be a world champion or be the best in the world and it seems like most people kind of break goals down into smaller chunks and maybe make them process goals versus outcome goals. Um, what did that look like for you when you were training hard for that, for those games? How did you approach goal setting? MS:So you're right, so goals, I mean you have this huge goal, like if you have a huge goal, it doesn't, it doesn't happen overnight. You don't. I don't say, Oh I'm going to qualify for Rio in the Paralympics and then wake up the next day and do it. It takes days and months and years of training and really believing that you can. So really, yeah, kind of taking it down into, into each day. So, you know, every day I wake up, I do my training and at the end of the day I kind of look back and I say, OK, what's one thing I did today that got me closer to my goal? And some days it's something as little as, I didn't want to go on my run, but I got up off the couch or I, I, I did what I had to do to make it happen. Whether the run was a good run or not, it doesn't matter some days. MS:What matters is just that you got out there and you did it when you didn't want to do it that day. Another day you look back and you say, wow, that run was amazing. I had this time goal and not only did I make it, but I surpassed it, and then that kind of makes all those other days of training that didn't go so well worth it and it kind of pushes you for the next block of training. So goals I think have to be broken down into little chunks and little steps at the end of every day. You can look back at your day and I guarantee you that whatever it is, even if it's the smallest little thing, there's something in that day that got you closer to that goal and some days they’re hard to find, other days are easier, but at the end of the, at the end of the day, you didn't have a good day. If it's a bad day, find the positive in it, find something that got you closer to that goal because it's there. Sometimes you have to just look a little bit deeper. CK:I love that so much and I can see how if you kind of stacked those moments on top of each other, you would also really stoke your confidence. Like you say, that is such an important of it too. Not just the physical preparation but the mental preparation. MS:Exactly, and you know, I think everything in life and especially goals as well. It's not this, it's not just an upward trajectory, right? I mean there's dips and there's valleys and there's peaks and—but it's a gradual, if you stick with it and if you stick with believing in yourself, having a team surrounding yourself with people that want you to get there, want you to, you know, reach those goals. The gradual trend is up, but it might, it’s all about when it does dip down, when you do have those valleys about not getting up and keep moving forward. CK:So how do you keep track of this moment? Are you a person who has a paper training log? Do you do it online or do you have some way that you are really capturing all of this to use later on? MS:So I used to have it written down where every day or either every night before I go to bed, I would write down what I did that day or the three good things that I did. And then every morning I would write down three things that I wanted to achieve that day. Since my daughter was born eight months ago. I have yet to continue that because I was kind of busy with, you know, middle of the night feedings and not, not a lot of sleep, but something that I should definitely start now that that’s getting a little bit better. I should start again because I think having it written down and being able to go back and look at that and you know, six months down the road, going back and looking back at the things that I achieved six months prior and realizing how far I've come from them can really help. CK:Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think that's what's so powerful about having those little rituals too, is that sometimes life does get crazy and you kind of move away from them. They give you something really sort of tangible to get back to, right. Like, you know, you can do that again. MS: Yeah, absolutely. CK: Let's talk a little bit now about Dare2Tri, which is an organization I know helps so many other athletes achieve their goals. What motivated you to launch it and how has it grown since? MS:Yeah, so back in 2011. Two of my friends, Dan Tun and Keri Serota and myself co founded Dare2Tri Paratriathlon Club. Obviously I'm an athlete with a physical disability and both Dan and Carrie are able-bodied athletes, but they’ve had worked with adaptive athletics all their life. So all of us were triathletes and kind of realized how much sports can impact somebody's life at all, but especially somebody with a disability. So we decided that we're going to start Dare2Tri and get however many athletes we could find that had physical disabilities and show them that they could do, not only be an athlete but they could be a triathlete. So we launched it back in 2011. It's based in the Chicago area and we had the modest goal to get eight athletes to do a triathlon that first year that had, where there was a amputation, visual impairments, spinal cord injury, and really provide the athletes with everything they needed to do a triathlon. MS:So expensive adaptive equipment, coaching, training and really helping them get to that starting line, so we started it and it grew faster than we ever could have imagined. Not only did we get eight athletes to that starting line in the first year, I think we were upwards in the, in the mid twenties, 24 athletes and then this many years later, seven years later, we have over 300 athletes on our roster. We have year round programming, we have camps, we had clinics, we have two, three-day camps, one that's for military, one that's for anybody with a physical disability and it's been really impressive and incredibly rewarding just to see how many lives we've impacted. Because you take somebody who has a disability, you know, take a youth athlete who's eight years old, they're in a wheelchair. Neither they or their families, you know, they're not sure kind of what their lives can be and how, that it doesn't matter if you’re in a wheelchair or not you can still accomplish whatever you want and you see them get to that starting line, cross the finish line and just kind of see that self confidence not only in them but in their families as well. And it, it's, it's really incredible. Our motto is one inspires many and our athletes inspire both on and off the race course. CK:Oh, that's got to give you fuel for your own accomplishments too, just seeing these athletes do things that they didn't think were possible for them. MS:Oh yeah, 100 percent. I do a lot of speaking around the nation and I get asked a lot like who inspires me and I am 100 percent inspired by our athletes. You know, anybody that doesn't think they could do something and they decide to go and try it and they realize that not only are they good at it and can they do it, but they actually enjoy it and then they continue on with it. So you know, our athletes in swear, anybody that sees them, but they help with my own goals and my own motivation as well. CK:I know that that's not the only way that you're working to help other athletes achieve their goals. You're also chair of the USA Triathlon Women's Committee. Tell me about that role and what goals do you hope to accomplish through that leadership position? MS:So USA triathlon has a good number of committees and the women's committee, which I recently the chair of, our goal is to get women into the sport of triathlon. So if any triathletes are listening, especially female triathletes, I think somebody asks you, Oh, what do you do and you say, Oh, I'm a triathlete, I swim, I bike, I run. And a lot of the response you get from women are, Oh, I could never do that. But the reality of it is actually yes, you can do that. So it's really what we hope to do as a committee is to really kind of break down those barriers. And when somebody, when a woman says, oh, I could never do that, you say, actually, yes you can. And this is why you can because there is a community of women athletes that are going to help mentor you to get there because there is a race you can go to and to start your career in triathlon. You can start out in a women's only triathlon or a women's only race and this is a uniform that, that you can wear and isn't it cool? You can pick from these colors and you know, it's not about winning the race, it's just about being out there and doing the race, so really kind of trying to break down those barriers on why women can be a triathlete and really to help them achieve it and to get to that finish line. CK:That's such an incredible goal. What does that look like in terms of like how you go about that? I mean are there conferences or is it just like individual outreach or group outreach? How, how practically speaking are. Is that committee working to make this a reality? MS:Yeah, it's kind of a combination of. So we have some partnerships with various other foundations kind of around the nation where each one of us has an athlete that we're mentoring to become a triathlete this year. We also provide grants, so grants to individuals that want to do their first triathlon to kind of help with travel or to help with coaching or to kind of help initiate the process on getting to that starting line. We also have grants that we give to women that are triathletes that are kind of looking to expand their leadership capabilities within triathlon, so if they’re a triathlon coach, but they want to take it to the next level and become a, get certified to coach athletes with disabilities or become a coach at the collegiate level to really kind of help women become advocates kind of within their own lives and kind of take that next step just so there's more females on the coaching level as well, so we provide resources on our Facebook page, it’s USA triathlon women's committee tips for women on how they can get into the sport and just hoping that women will take a liking and realize that they can do it also. CK:That's great that there's both informational and and financial support. I know that those are both really big needs for women who may be considering this kind of a sport. So that's, that's incredible. And thanks for giving the facebook page too. Because, yeah, I was going to ask how women can find out more about this. So that's perfect. The second big question that we always ask and #WeGotGoals is about a future goal you have and how you plan to get there and you've touched on some big goals that you have for the different organizations you're involved with. But I wonder what's, what's next for Melissa Stockwell? What's a goal you have personally? MS:So I have two young kids. I have an eight month old and I have a three year old and my husband Brian. And my kids motivate me to want to be, to dream even bigger and I want to kind of dream big and hopes that they see me dream big and they had big dreams of their own someday. So you know, I'm very athletically driven. I've found I have a passion behind sports and just the way it really makes me feel and just kind of proving to myself that I can still have these big goals, athletic goals, whether or not I have one leg or two. So for me, 2020 is the next Paralympic Games for triathlon and it is definitely a goal of mine in coming back from after having my daughter Millie eight months ago is not an easy thing to do, you know, a lot of my competitors are much younger than I am, no families, so the training dynamic is very different but the goal of showing them that I will be 40 years old, and as a 40 year old triathlete that has two young kids and I can still be out there on the course and not only that I can still be out there and be fast and keep up with them as well. MS:So that is definitely one of my big goals is to try and make it to Tokyo and kind of have that be my final Paralympic Games and just to do it to prove that I can and to challenge myself and just to show my kids that you put in the work and dreams can come true. CK:That's incredible to hear. And so interesting to hear too about how your motivation has changed a little bit or at least maybe expanded. I feel like often when I do talk to athletes who have long careers like you, they do find that like as life goes on, they find even more reasons to get out there and more fuel for the fire and, and more ways to stay motivated. So it's fantastic to hear that that's the case for you. MS:Yes, definitely. CK:And obviously that is like sort of a logistical challenge too, to train with the family. What are one or two of the things that have shifted for you and what advice do you give other people about fitting it all in when you have a family and, and want to train at a high level. MS:It's hard. There's never enough hours in the day, there weren’t before I had kids and now there definitely aren't. So I think fitting in what you can when you can and my coach had taught me that, that if I have 15 minutes to go on a run before kids, I would've thought that's not even worth it. Why would I even go for 15 minutes? But you go and you run a mile or a mile and a half, and instead of doing nothing that day while you've just gotten a mile in and those miles add up and they make a difference. The other things I've had to do is just kind of adjust my time so you know, instead of waking up and having breakfast and then doing whatever I do and then doing my workout, I again, I had to do what I can when I can. So in the summer when it's not cold and icy, I was known to put my kids down to bed because of course you want to spend as much time as you can with them. So I put him down to bed, 8:30 PM, put on a reflector vest, put on my headlamp and actually on my run around the neighborhood. Things that I never thought I would do that in order to make it work. It's things like that that you have to do. So get that headlamp, get that reflector vest.  Use, if you have 15 minutes, take those 15 minutes and do what you can with that much. Really just any little time that you have throughout the day, just doing what you can when you can. CK:Yeah. I think it's just like we were talking earlier about, you know, noticing your accomplishments for the day like that—all those little bits definitely add up to something much greater in the long run. MS:Yes, yes they do. CK:When you speak or give advice to others, what are, what are one or two of the key lessons you share about overcoming obstacles that come up in route to your goals? MS:When we're younger, we have, you know, you have these dreams of what you want your life to be like, right? Like you want be a doctor, you want to live in this area, you want to be married, you want to have kids, but it never happens that way. I think the older we get, the more we realize that you can't really plan your life because you can plan it to an extent, but there's so many obstacles and kind of twists and turns that happen that you're not prepared for because you don’t, there are so unexpected, but I think knowing that those things happen, that those roadblocks come up and that there's going to be diversions you know, to get to where you want to get and just the ability to really accept them and to really, to overcome them and to find a silver lining because it's hard to find a silver lining, but it is there. MS:And to really kind of dig deep and find a way to make whatever difficulties come your way, like to make them almost desirable and to make it so you end up even better. On the other side, you, you learn from your challenges and you make, in turn, they make you better in the long run. Another thing is to do that, you have to. You have to believe in yourself, but you also have to, you know when these obstacles come your way, you, you have the power to choose how you want to react to them. So that's kind of the beauty in life, right? You can choose for them to get to you and put you down or you can choose to help them make your life even better. So to try to choose to take the high road and you know, to help them make your life as good as you want it to be. So we can all choose what we want our life's path to be like. And just to try to choose to make your path to good one. CK:Those stories we tell ourselves definitely so powerful and can really shape our experiences and our future. I know. So I mean along those lines, April 13th is coming up and we mentioned this earlier, but talk to me a little bit about how you commemorate this because I think that it's such a great example of what you were just talking about. MS:Yeah. So, um, it is coming up, but I'll just a few weeks now. So every April 13th, which is a day that I lost my leg over in Iraq, every year we actually celebrate the day. So I named what’s left of my leg Little Leg and we have a birthday for Little Leg. So this year will be Little Leg’s, sounds kind of crazy to me but 14th birthday, which, I can’t believe it’s been 14 years. But it's really a celebration, so family and friends drive in or fly in. We celebrate the day. We celebrate not just Little Leg’s life or my life, but really everybody's life because in the day to day lives that we live, it's easy to get kind of caught up in everything that's going on, but when you take a moment or a day to kind of take a step back and to think about your life and it’s, we’re all very lucky to live the lives that we do. So just to take a day to celebrate that and to be with your loved ones and to celebrate, to dance, to, to eat cake, to, to share some drinks and just to kind of enjoy, enjoy life. CK:Well Melissa, that's such good advice and thank you so much for joining us on the #WeGotGoals podcast. Before I let you go, how can people find you and keep track of you and keep tabs on the celebrating that you're doing and all of the accomplishments that you have in the future? MS:Social media is obviously the best way. I do have a website that's melissastockwell.com. On Facebook, it’s Melissa StockwellUSA and then on both Twitter and Instagram it’s mstockwell01. So I encourage everyone to kind of follow along. I promise that there is never really a dull moment CK:And lots of adorable baby photos, that's for sure. Well thank you again Melissa. It's been great talking with you. Really appreciate your time. MS: Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. CK:This podcast was produced by me, Cindy Kuzma and it's another thing that's better with friends, so please share it with yours. You can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and if you give us a rating or review while you're there, we would be so grateful. Special things to J. Mano for our theme music; to a guest this week, Melissa Stockwell; and to Tech Nexus for the recording studio.  

It’s the start of a new year, which is an exciting time all around. You’re probably excited about new opportunities, starting a company, or building product in 2018!   While I’m all for optimism, I’ve also gotta stay true to them theme of Build: debunking myths and misconceptions when it comes to building tech product, companies and your career in tech ;)   So we’re going to spend the next four episodes of Build debunking themes around fundraising for startups.   I know what you’re thinking: “Poornima, is this really necessary?! Can’t we just focus on product and engineering? How about some Build Tips with those friendly product managers, designers, and engineers from Pivotal Labs?”   Don’t worry we’ve got plenty of those in store for you! Before we dive back into the fun and friendly banter of Ronan and his team, I thought it was necessary to start 2018 debunking myths around fundraising.   Here are my reasons for doing this:   Reason #1: If you want to be a founder and start a startup in 2018, you need to know how to control your own destiny.   Gone are the days of a quick and easy seed deal. If you don’t believe me, then here are two posts from very active investors Fred Wilson and Jason Calacanis with compelling data spanning the past 5 years. They show you that investment in early-stage companies is indeed slowing down, and why the trend is going to continue. #byebyebubble   Reason #2: If you want to be a founder and fundraise, you need to know what it’s really going to take to get the first check that gives you the freedom to quit your day job.   I know I previously explored what it takes to raise capital from investors and how investors add value beyond the check. But times are changin’! As I went back and reviewed the episodes I realized that while much of the advice still applies, there are new challenges founders, especially first-time founders face.   If you’re going to be one of them, then you need to be aware of them as you build your startup. There are also going to be a lot of sacrifices that you will need to consider making. As you’re faced with them, you might feel like you’re doing things wrong, when others have had an easier time. But you cannot compare when the market is in flux.   Reason #3: Don’t want to be a founder? Even if being a founder is the furthest thing from your mind, you might be thinking about joining a startup as an employee at any stage — garage to growth.   Well you need to be able to tell fact from fiction. You don’t want to get lured into visions of billion-dollar exits, only to discover that they are going to be cutting health care benefits, won’t be able to make payroll next month, or all that equity won’t help you buy my 2005 Honda Civic!   You need to be able to ask tough questions to understand the real health of the company, and market opportunity, so that you can decide if it’s worth taking the risk.   Reason #4: As an employee at a startup, every quarter you are going to be tasked with challenging milestones.   Metrics matter more and more these days, and every department has a funnel.   For engineering, it’s making sure the team is continuing to build and ship a quality product, balancing out features with infrastructure and keeping an eye out for that pesky tech debt to avoid slowdowns.   For product, it’s making sure there is a good balance of attracting new customers, while engaging and monetizing existing ones. And holding the engineering team accountable to spending time on paying down product debt.   While marketing has to keep growing traffic no matter what!   Teams are also staying lean longer, and founders are looking for employees with generalist backgrounds who can #GSD.   Everyone’s contribution matters to achieving metrics, which makes you feel wanted as an employee. But it also means that you need to be good at prioritizing, understanding tradeoffs, and a fast learner!   At the end of the day, you need to know and understand that what you are doing is actually moving the needle and going to help attract investment and customers.   There is no point in building product or marketing just for the sake of it.   Hopefully my reasons have convinced you why learning about fundraising is integral to your own success at a startup, and we can move on to the first episode of the year! In it, we’re going to tackle the first misconception a lot of first-time founders fall prey: thinking they need to reach out to investors the moment they have an idea.   It turns out you actually don't need to reach out to investors and you can get started by funding your idea on your own. You’ve probably heard this a lot already…   Quite frankly, investors won’t even take meetings if you do reach out. I can count on two hands the number of investors who I had successfully raised from in previous years that wouldn’t even return my emails recently! Why? Because it’s getting really competitive out there and they want to make sure startups have substantial progress before they are willing to take time to meet.   To help us out, I've invited Erica Brescia, who is the COO and co-founder of Bitnami. Erica has also recently joined XFactor as an investment partner. XFactor is an early-stage investment firm that's looking to fund female founders as well as mix-gendered teams.   I choose Erica and her peers to come on the show because they are ALL founders first and investors second. Meaning they have sat on both sides of the table.   As you watch today’s episode you’ll learn:   Why investment may not be applicable to the type of business you are building and alternate approaches to funding your startup The questions investors ask themselves before they will respond to a meeting request or write a startup a check When startups are “too early” to fundraise and why the definition of “too early” is inconsistent — who really gets funded early and why The work that startup founders and teams must do, if they are keen on attracting investment In future episodes we’ll dive into topics like why raising capital won’t help you outdo competition, how to get over the constant rejection, and what it’s going to take to get that first check. Build is produced as a partnership between Femgineer and Pivotal Tracker. San Francisco video production by StartMotionMEDIA. Episode Transcript Poornima Vijayashanker:           Got an idea for a tech product that you want to scale into a big business? You probably think that you need to go out and raise capital from an investor, right? Well, it turns out that you may not need to. In today's *Build* episode, we're going to explore when it makes sense to reach out to investors.                     Welcome to *Build*, brought to you by Pivotal Tracker. I'm your host, Poornima Vijayashanker. In each *Build* episode, I invite innovators and together we debunk myths and misconceptions related to building products, companies, and your career in tech. One misconception a lot of first-time founders fall prey to is thinking they need to reach out to investors the moment they have an idea. It turns out you actually don't need to reach out to investors and you can get started by funding your idea on your own. In today's episode, we're going to dive in deep to understand some of the mistakes that first-time founders make when it comes to funding their idea. We'll also talk about what investors are looking for and when it makes sense to reach out to them. To help us out, I've invited Erica Brescia, who is the COO and co-founder of Bitnami. Erica has also recently joined XFactor as an investment partner. XFactor is an early-stage investment firm that's looking to fund female founders as well as mix-gendered teens. Thanks for joining us today, Erica.   Erica Brescia:              Thanks for having me. It's great to be here.   Poornima Vijayashanker:           This is the first time that you and I are meeting. Thanks for being here. I want to know a little bit more about you. Let's start with your background. What got you interested in tech?   Erica Brescia:              I've always been very interested in gadgets. It started out actually with mobile phones way back in the day, but I've always been curious about learning more about technology and gadgets and how things work. I really wanted to understand how mobile phone networks worked back in the day. Don't ask me why. I went on to study investment finance. A different path than a lot of people in Silicon Valley take. My father is an entrepreneur and I always had it in the back of my mind I wanted to start my own company. I got introduced to my co-founder and decided I was just going to help him work out a few kinks in the business and get it off the ground. Here I am now running a software company. It's really a case of being open to new opportunities, but also just having this lifelong interest in understanding how things work and learning new things.   Poornima Vijayashanker:           Let's talk about Bitnami, your current company. What exactly does Bitnami do and what inspired you to start it?   Erica Brescia:              Bitnami is a catalog of open-source applications that you can deploy on servers. It's primarily like B2B software. Things like maybe Moodle or Druple or WordPress, if you're familiar with that. We also package up a lot of development environments and development tools, things like Jenkins and Get Lab or Anode or Rails or Django Development environment. We have over a million deployments a month of the applications that we package. We publish them both through Bitnami.com as well as on all of the major cloud bender platforms. Users choose Bitnami because they know everything is going to work right out of the box every time, and they get a consistent experience wherever they deploy the software. If I can just add one more thing to that, one thing I'm particularly excited about is up until now we've been bootstrapping through our relationships with cloud vendors, but we're about to launch a new product for the enterprise. We're essentially taking the next step in the company's evolution by productizing all of the automation that we've built to deliver this catalog of applications so that others can take advantage of it, too.   Poornima Vijayashanker:           It sounds like Bitnami has been going strong for a long time. How long have you guys been around?   Erica Brescia:              We've been working on the Bitnami part of the business since 2013, but the technology dates back about ten years to when we started Bitrock, which is the predecessor. We do have several years in now.   A Day In The Life of a Startup COO   Poornima Vijayashanker:           That's great. As a COO, what's your day to day like?   Erica Brescia:              It was funny, when I thought through that question, there's no day to day. I spent Monday and Tuesday in some really key BD meetings. In Seattle yesterday, I was in LA for an open-source conference. I'm obviously here today. The way that we have our leadership roles between my co-founder and I might be different than a lot of other companies. I run everything except for product and engineering. That means that marketing, sales, BD, legal, finance, everything rolls up to me. That basically keeps things running and make sure that the company is growing and bringing on the right people and has revenue coming in and all those good things. Obviously as a quickly growing startup that's very, very tech heavy, I'm still involved in everything including product and engineering, too. There's never a typical day. It varies a lot and the days are long, but a lot of fun.   Poornima Vijayashanker:           Very good. Now you have actually taken on another role. If Bitnami isn't enough, you decided to join XFactor as an investment partner. Tell us a little bit about XFactor and why the decision to go into investment.   Erica Brescia:              Absolutely. I'll start with XFactor and tell you about the fund. Then I'll talk about why I joined. XFactor is a $3 million seed fund. We're making $100K investments in 30 companies. Pretty easy math. The genesis was really a woman named Anna and a guy named Chip. Chip is a partner with Fly Bridge. They got together and wanted to find a way to fund more women in technology because they had read some of the statistics about how difficult it can be for women to raise funding. The truth is, it's really an untapped opportunity. There's a ton of brilliant women building some very interesting companies. They were having problems in some cases getting through the traditional VC process because of some of the biases that we've all read about. We probably don't need to go through that. The idea was that they were going to get together a group of operating female founders. I think that's really the key is we're all women who have built and scaled our own businesses across a variety of sectors. I have a lot of experience in B2B and closing very big BD deals.                     I've acquired companies and things like that. Some of the other women are very heavy on the consumer side and they're great at branding and rolling out new products. We got a really diverse team of women, but who are actually still on the ground running businesses, very in touch with the problems that founders have in getting new companies off the ground. We think we have a pretty unique perspective and also an edge in terms of what we can offer founders because we're so close to the challenges that they're experiencing. We're very focused obviously with that check size on pretty early-stage companies and helping set those founders up for success. We do expect most of them will go on to raise for their venture capital. We're there to support them in doing that. I actually haven't raised VC for my company, but all the other women have. We have a good diversity of experiences and opinions around that too.   Being A Startup Founder And Angel Investor   Poornima Vijayashanker:           Why'd you join?   Erica Brescia:              It took a lot of thought. They came to me. At first, I thought they just wanted to run the idea by me back in February. Then I get an email a few days later saying, “We'd love to have you join us.” I really did spend some time thinking about it and talking to my co-founder and my husband about whether or not I'd be able to balance everything, because it is a big commitment. If I make a commitment, I want to come through on it and make sure that I'm not letting the founders and my fellow investment partners down. It really came down to the opportunity both for personal growth for me and to give back. There's a financial opportunity, too, which is fantastic. I really saw that we have a pretty unique angle into both deal flow. Several of us are YC founders as well. We have access to the YC network and obviously just good networks in Silicon Valley and outside as well. I felt like we could do something really interesting. I could meet a lot more women in technology. Also, I really do think there's a huge untapped opportunity there. I think we'll be able to produce above-average returns. It really came down to me asking the question, “Do I have time for this?” I'm going to get less sleep for sure. That's definitely been the case.   Poornima Vijayashanker:           Sure. You can make time.   Erica Brescia:              It was just too good to pass up. This is one of those things that I just couldn't say “no” to because the opportunity is so big and it's something that I'm enjoying doing so much.   Poornima Vijayashanker:           Wonderful. As soon as I saw the news, I wanted to reach out to you guys because I thought it was fabulous and needed to be spread to everyone else. Let's talk about your investments then. I know everyone has probably got different things that they want to invest in. We're going to talk to some of your partners later on. Let's talk about what you like to invest in.   Why Angel Investors Focus On Making Investments In Markets and Business Models They Are Familiar With   Erica Brescia:              Sure. I right now am very focused on things that I am passionate about. I think about whether or not the company keeps me up at night thinking about it later. I am usually receiving on the deal flow that it's on B2B and enterprise sales in particular because that's where my expertise and experience is. I found myself drawn to some other things, too. One of the investments that'll be announced soon, I wish I could name some of them.   Poornima Vijayashanker:           That's OK.   Erica Brescia:              I think we're about to announce that we've made eight investments in the first two months.   Poornima Vijayashanker:           Oh, awesome.   Erica Brescia:              We've been very busy and we've met some amazing women. One of the investments that I've led so far is very much a technology, cloud-focused company, which is absolutely my bailiwick. The other one is a fin-tech company. I was really drawn. I loved the founder. Was very impressed by her and the team that she's put together. Also, it was just the problem that they were solving, I could see it so clearly. It was palpable and I was staying up at night and I was talking to my husband about what they were doing and why I thought it was exciting. When I start thinking about how they can make the business successful and what they should be thinking about, that's a very good sign to me. I know it's not direct answer. I invest in this list of companies, but that's really not the way that it's worked out so far. I've looked at a variety of med-tech companies, fin-tech companies, more women in technology and sourcing and recruiting companies. Some people doing interesting stuff with NLP. It's really been a very diverse range of companies.   Why Women Founded Tech Companies Are Broader Than Gets Portrayed                     One of the things that I think you'll see us talking about more, which is very cool, is a lot of these companies are not what you would typically think of as the women-in-tech companies. A lot of people think all we want to work on is beauty. I like makeup and clothes and everything as much as the next person, but I don't know anything about those businesses. A lot of the deal flow that we've had, it's coming from all kinds of very hardcore tech, a lot of VR stuff, too, and AR. We've seen a broad range. Right now we're looking for the next billion-dollar businesses really. Any other VC it's, “Is this something I'm passionate about and can it be huge and can I add value in helping them make it so?”   Poornima Vijayashanker:           Actually, that's a good segue into talking about I think one of the things that confuses some folks in our audience and even first-time founders is, what qualifies as a tech product and then what—let's start there and then we can talk about maybe what a big idea is.   Understanding If Your Startup Is A Tech Enabled Business Or A Tech Product   Erica Brescia:              Sure. Almost anything these days is tech enabled. If it's not, you might have a scalability problem. I don't think we have very strict definitions as to what is tech or not. If excelling in technology and in the technical underpinnings of the product is going to give people an advantage, that's probably a tech company or something that we would think of as such. Some of the subscription businesses or there's a food device I can't talk too much about, but that we're looking at. A really novel subscription business around it. Another two companies have come through that are working on breast pumps for women. They're hardware companies but there's a lot of technology obviously that goes into the hardware. Obviously a lot of tech powering how they're approaching the businesses. It's really a pretty loose definition of what a tech company is. Even some of them are physical spaces now that we're looking at. It's a pretty broad range. It's not like we're only investing in software or we're only investing in sass or something like that.   Poornima Vijayashanker:           That's good to know. Tech enabled but there's probably some conversation that needs to be had around, “Are you really just selling water online or is there a distribution model that is tech enabled and it's cool if you sell water online.”   Erica Brescia:              Exactly.   Why Finding An Investor Isn’t Good Enough — You Need To Find THE Investor Who Understand Your Market and Business Model   Poornima Vijayashanker:           Got it. Then let's talk about I think another area, though, which is—you've already started talking about you enjoy the deals that are B2B, more enterprise, and maybe a little bit more saas heavy. I think one of the concerns that a lot of first-time founders have is, “I just need to find an investor.” I just need to find one investor, but they may not necessarily find that right investor. It's interesting because it's not just limited to tech. I was reading Barbara Lynch's memoir, who's a restaurateur, and she talked about going and finding the investors who invested in restaurants for her nine restaurants. Talk to me a little bit about what it means to be vertical focused as an investor.   Erica Brescia:              You want investors who understand your business or at least have the capacity and time to learn about it and who are upfront if they don't understand things, too. There's several things that make people good investors. One is, don't be an asshole, if I can say that on your show.   Poornima Vijayashanker:           Sure. Of course.   Erica Brescia:              I just don't want to work with people who are not good people. To me, some people don't care about...I've actually had people come to me and say, “It doesn't matter. All VCs are going to be assholes, you just need to accept that and move on.” I'm like, “Uh, uh. No. No, I don't. There's a lot of great VCs out there.”   Poornima Vijayashanker:           That's the normal assumption.   Erica Brescia:              There are a lot of good people out there, men and women in venture capital. I do think it's important that you understand somebody who understands your business and the cycles. Before, example, we've had a lot of very hardware-centric businesses come through. Those are difficult to invest in. In particular, if you don't have experience in hardware because you don't have a really good understanding of how long it's going to take and what the development cycle should look like and how capital intensive that you're going to be. It's harder to make good investment decisions. It's harder to be helpful for the founder, because if you have unrealistic expectations for the type of business they're building, nobody wins. It's the same, we've seen a lot of robotics companies doing super cool stuff, but I've told them, “Look, I'm not an expert in robotics. I'm going to have to go out.” We do have an associate who does some work for us, but we have to go out and be willing to invest our time to get up to speed in those industries in order to feel comfortable making an investment.                     It's good advice. I think what you're alluding to is, find an investor that actually knows what they're talking about in your space because otherwise they could really do damage by slowing you down, refusing to fund a second round or something like that. A follow on or just inundating you with questions all the time. The last thing you want to be doing is just educating your investors on the market when you have a company to build.   The Sacrifices Founders Have To Make To Get Their Startup Off The Ground   Poornima Vijayashanker:           Exactly. No, that's a good point. Let's talk about the other side of this, which is also, it's very tempting, as a first-time founder or somebody who’s green, to have an idea, whether it's hardware or anything that we feel is capital intensive or sometimes we just don't even have the capital as a founder. We haven't quite got to the financial point of our life. It's tempting to immediately say, “Oh my gosh, to get this thing off the ground I need to go and get investment. That might not be the right time.” Let's talk about what time horizon makes sense. I know it's going to be product specific, but I think it would be helpful to just—   Erica Brescia:              It really depends on so many different variables. One of them I think is important is to be realistic about where you are in your life and what kind of sacrifices you're willing to make. The reality is, if you have a family and a mortgage, it's a heck of a lot harder to stop taking a salary—particularly if you were to work in Silicon Valley because the salaries are quite high here right now—and go and start something from scratch. If you're 22 and right out of college and have none of those financial responsibilities, you might have more flexibility. My vote is do as much as you can before raising funding. Build as much as you can. First of all, there's so many good investment opportunities right now that I think most investors, they want to see...first they want to see that you're committed. If you just go out with a pitch deck—like I took two weeks of holiday for my job to put together a pitch deck and if you fund me, I'll go do this—you're never going to get funded because we want to see conviction.   We want to see that you quit your job, you're committed, you've been working on this with somebody else preferably for six months. You have the personality and the skills and the charm or whatever it may be, the conviction to actually get other people to join you. That's important, too. Unless you absolutely can not do it without raising money up front, I would say get at least to a prototype or as far as you can to be able to go show people and prove to people that you're there for the long haul and that you're willing to make sacrifices to make something happen. I will also plug incubators, like Y Combinator. Obviously I'm biased because we went through the program. That was a great experience for us in terms of helping us just build some momentum and we did rebranding of the company and accomplished a lot during that period. It's not about the funding necessarily, but it can give people who are cash wrapped a bit of cash to fund those first few months. It really helps you to accelerate that initial process and sets you up very well to raise from VCs after the fact.                     We've certainly sourced a lot of our deal flow from YC. We try at XFactor to be very broad and we've had people from all over the world, in fact, contacting us. Of course, we're going to look to YC because they've already been through that filter. They've achieved something during the period that they're in Y Combinator. It's a three-month sprint. We've found that looking at people that have at least gotten to the point where you would be if you've gone through a Y Combinator or similar. They've got something to show. That's when it makes sense. I will say, this is really the approach that we've taken with Bitnami is try to find money from customers. Let's not undervalue the fact that people will pay you for what you're building. Hopefully if you're building something valuable, and you're much better off going through that experience, learning what it takes to sell to people and collect their money—there's a lot of details there—and try to build your business that way. You don't need to go for VC right away. There are great examples of companies that have been hugely successful doing that like GitHub and Atlassian.   Why It’s OK To Build A Lifestyle Business   Poornima Vijayashanker:           I'm going to have you hold that thought because we are going to talk about that in a little bit. Now, the other thing I want to point out because you said customers, but I think also bootstrapping with a pay check to get off the ground. A lot of times people are worried about quitting their job and having a source of income, so using that especially for businesses that a little bit more capital intensive early on. Want to throw that out there. I want to dive a little bit deeper into this whole idea of, “I do want to get investment eventually.” Let's say I have gotten to a point, maybe I've gone to an incubator or I've gotten it off the ground, I have some customers. Then there comes that period where you're talking to an investor and they may not really understand how big your idea is. It's oftentimes that thing that people nitpick over and over again that, is this a big idea? Is this a big market? Or sadly people like to say, it's a lifestyle business. There's a stigma here in Silicon Valley against that. Let's talk about what exactly defines a big idea—if we can even define it because I know it's a little amorphous—versus a lifestyle businesses and maybe even break that stigma of that lifestyle business.   Erica Brescia:              Sure. First I'll say I don't think there's anything wrong with a “lifestyle” business. There have been a lot of deals that we looked at. There was this one amazing woman, I won't name the company, but she came through my network actually. She developed some really interesting technology. It was my belief after talking to a lot of people that she's going to sell the company for somewhere between $30–50 million within two years. Awesome for her. Not a great VC investment?   Why Venture Capitalist Don’t Invest In Lifestyle Businesses   Poornima Vijayashanker:           Why?   Erica Brescia:              Because we can't produce the kind of returns that we're looking for. We have LPs just like any other VC fund. We have a responsibility to them to generate returns. I told this woman I want to help her in any way I can. She's incredibly bright. I just couldn't see a path to them building a billion-dollar business. That's really what it needs to be. There needs to be a path that you can understand for how this can be huge. It's going to be very risky. I should say we always know that businesses are going to change and evolve and you're very much betting on the founders. That's absolutely true, but at the same time, if they have conviction around a specific idea and we don't see how it can get to be a huge business, and some of the great hardware companies we're looking at are like that. I think they will have fantastic businesses and fantastic exits. I certainly wouldn't call them lifestyle businesses because they're life changing in terms of the returns that they'll create for the founders. They may not be appropriate for a VC fund. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.                     You need to take a dispassionate look about what you're building, how big the market really is, how much of it you have an opportunity to grab, and be realistic about that. Then think about the kind of funding that makes sense. You might be able to find a family office or something or angel investors who are not looking for the same VC-style risk and returns. They'll be totally happy with the company selling for $10, $20, $30 million. In a couple years, they'll double their money and everybody's fine.   Where Do Venture Capitalist And Angel Investors Get Money To Fund Startups   Poornima Vijayashanker:           On that note, let's actually define what an LP is and why VC versus angels that people understand if they're not familiar.   Erica Brescia:              Sure. An LP is limited partner and they're the people that put money into the funds. They're often wealthy. They always have some money coming from somewhere. Often wealthy individuals, but depending on the fund, they might also be pension funds or endowments and things like that from universities or different trusts and things like that. Basically the people who put money into the hands of the venture capitalists who are the people who actually invest that money. In the case of angels, angels I think have evolved a lot. Now we have the super angels.   Poornima Vijayashanker:           We'll get into that in a future episode. I keep saying this, but it's gonna happen. It's gonna happen guys.   Erica Brescia:              I won't take us to off course then. There are a lot of different kinds of angels. I was an angel investor before joining XFactor. I mean, not at a huge scale, but I'd made a few investments myself.   Poornima Vijayashanker:           What's the scale?   Erica Brescia:              I was writing like $10,000 checks.   Poornima Vijayashanker:           Perfect.   Erica Brescia:              Smaller checks. Then there are people like—I'll take my father, who's one of my closest friends and heroes and has inspired me to do all of this. He built a brick and mortar contracting business that did quite well. He's been making tons of angel investments and all kinds of different things. Some tech, some very, very nontech. You have people like that. Then you have people like Eric Han for example. My company did raise a bit of angel funding primarily to get some really great folks involved with the company. Some of these people were like Eli Gillin, Eric Han. Eric Han was the CTO of Netscape. He went on to be a very early investor in Red Hat. Since then, has been one of the first checks into a ton of companies that have IPO'd. He was on the board of Red Hat after they IPO'd. Eli Gillin is running his own company now, but he started and sold a company to Twitter and ran a bunch of stuff there. These are people who have done well in their career, typically understand tech. They make a lot more investments than somebody like maybe me or my father who might've written a couple of checks a year. These people are doing several key deals a year, usually only investing their own funds. That's one of the big differences. They don't have LPs. It's their own money. They might be doing it more at scale. We call them usually professional angels or super angels.   Poornima Vijayashanker:           Business angels.   Erica Brescia:              Exactly. Who are making a lot of investments, but they don't have LPs to answer to.   When Does It Make Sense To Approach An Investor With Your Startup Idea — First Know What You Are Going To Do With It!   Poornima Vijayashanker:           Great. Let's end with this question. When does it make sense then when you think you have this big idea, to approach an investor? I know you guys said early, but what is maybe too early and what's a reasonable early to get a meeting?   Erica Brescia:              It depends on what you need. Let's start with why do you need the money? That's the first question you should be asking yourself. Where is this money going to get you? You better have a good answer before you go talk to VCs. What milestone are you going to hit with this? Then the second question you should ask is, could I get it from anywhere other than VCs? Do I have friends and family who might want to just give me some money? Could I even take out a loan? Sometimes these other things make sense. There are a bunch of diverse opinions on this, but my view is you don't take VC unless you absolutely need it. Until it's holding you back from scaling. In the particular case of Bitnami, for example, we've primarily bootstrapped. We've only taken a million dollars in outside funding in total. I have over 70 employees in 12 countries. We're cash-flow positive. We've built quite a stable and steady business. We are starting to talk about potentially raising venture capital because we're launching this enterprise product that I mentioned before.                     That involves building out an entirely new part of the business. I can do that off of cash flow, but I'll probably go a lot slower and we see that there's a limited window of opportunity here. I think it really depends on your specific case and whether you can do it any other way. Or if there's an investor that you can feel or that you feel can add a lot of value. There are certain investors who might have a ton of experience in your space. Maybe they started an earlier company and exited it and are just itching for the chance to do it better now that the technology is evolved or what have you. If you find people like that, I think they can be really helpful to building the business. Otherwise, it's like, you should raise when you need to raise. If you feel like you could run out of money in the near future and not be able to actually execute on your plan.   Yes There Is Such A Thing As Being Too Early To Fundraise For Your Startup And Yes It’s Inconsistent!   Poornima Vijayashanker:           Let's admit. There is a time that's too early.   Erica Brescia:              Oh yeah. There always is. It's funny. We funded a company that was quite early and quite a high evaluation. That's one of the deals I led actually. I knew the founder and he'd already built a successful company.   Poornima Vijayashanker:           There you go.   Erica Brescia:              You're much more willing then, almost eager, to get in because this is a male, female team. I happen to know the male better than the female. I told him I wanted into that deal because I think this guy has a ton of potential. Even though it was early, I would write him a check, but he's proven. That matters.   Poornima Vijayashanker:           Exactly. I think that's a big stigma, or rather a big misconception around who's getting a deal, who hasn't built a product yet, or it's not on the market. It's great that you mentioned that. I think for most other folks, they need to see something. They need to see product. They need to see at least a concierge-style minimal bible product or service, some cash flow, some customers. They really want to...those who don't have a track record need to step up their game and show a little bit more credibility.   Questions Investors Ask Before They Take A Meeting Or Write A Check To A Startup Founder   Erica Brescia:              Yeah. The things I look at is, are they committed is the number one thing. Starting a company is hard and a lot of people underestimate how hard and how many sacrifices you make. You can do a whole episode on what's involved in that. Are they committed? Can they build a team? I look at that a lot. That's one thing where people who want to move to Silicon Valley who have no connections there, that's one of my questions. How are you going to find people and convince them in a highly competitive job market to join your team? If you can do that, it also speaks pretty highly of you and your ability to convince people and help them see the vision. Then can they build the product? Is it something that people will pay for? Those are the checklist items that I have. The more that you can demonstrate, the easier the time you're going to have with fundraising.                   If you can't prove that people will pay for your product, if you can't prove that people will use it, especially if you can't prove that you can build it, that's when we're going to have a lot of challenges getting to the next step. That's when I try to give people a clean “yes” or “no.” Sometimes it's like, “You're just not there yet. If you do these things, then I might be interested. I'm sorry. I need to see more before I can make the call.”   Poornima Vijayashanker:           Yeah. I think that's fair. Thank you so much Erica for sharing all this information with us today.   Erica Brescia:              Thank you for having me.   Poornima Vijayashanker:           That's it for today's episode of *Build*. Be sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel to receive the next episode where we'll continue the conversation and talk about when it makes sense to transition from angel investment to seeking investment from venture capitalists and what you need to do in that interim period. Ciao for now.   This episode of *Build* is brought to you by our sponsor Pivotal Tracker.   Blog Post 2 Subject: When It Does And Doesn’t Make Sense To Fundraise For Your Startup Title: Startup Funding: When It Does And Doesn’t Make Sense To Fundraise For Your Startup Subtitle: Interview with Erica Brescia COO and Co-Founder of Bitnami and Investment Partner at XFactor Ventures   Ready for more myth busting around startup funding? Let’s get to it then!   Last week I shared a number of reasons you should share care fundraising whether you’re a founder or startup employee. Here’s they are again, and in the Build episode we talked about why it’s a bad idea to reach out to investors when you have an idea.   This week we’re going to continue our theme and focus on what compels us to think we need to raise capital like competition heating up, the belief that the business will stop growing, or that the idea we’re pursuing isn’t really BIG enough. We’ll also be diving into the mechanics of investment talking about the nuances of an angel versus a venture capitalist, and why it’s important to look for investors that have knowledge of your marketing or industry.   Erica Brescia is back to help us out with this episode. Erica the COO and co-founder of Bitnami. Erica has also recently joined XFactor Ventures as an investment partner. XFactor is an early-stage investment firm that's looking to fund female founders as well as mix-gendered teams.   Erica is a founder and investor, and having sat on both sides of the table, she knows how to dispel fact from fiction!   As you watch today’s episode you’ll learn:   Why Erica and her partners at XFactor are putting their money where their mouth is and starting a fund to invest in female founders and mix-gendered teams What the XFactor investment partners and other angels look for versus venture capitalists, and how much they are willing to invest Why competitors will come and go, and you cannot let their actions intimidate you or direct your business goals Why only you as a founder, can decide when is the right time to raise for your business     In the next two episodes we’ll explore handling all the rejections you receive from investors, how to motivate yourself to keep going, and what it’s going to take to get that first check!   Listen to the episode on iTunes! You can listen to this episode of Build on iTunes.   Build is produced as a partnership between Femgineer and Pivotal Tracker. San Francisco video production by StartMotionMEDIA.   ## Startup Funding: When It Does And Doesn’t Make Sense To Fundraise For Your Startup Transcript   Poornima Vijayashanker:         Last time, we talked about how as a first-time founder, you don't necessarily need to immediately rush out and get investment to get your tech product off the ground. We discovered some alternate ways of funding your product development and company growth. If you missed that episode, I've included it in the link below this video.   In today's episode, we're going to dive in a little bit deeper, and talk about when it makes sense to go out for that angel investment, and then how do you transition from getting capital from angels to eventually getting it from venture capitalists, and what you need to do in the interim to make sure you're growing your company. So stick around.   Welcome to *Build*, brought to you by Pivotal Tracker. I'm your host, Poornima Vijayashanker. In each episode, I invite innovators, and together we debunk a number of myths and misconceptions related to building products, companies, and your career in tech.   What Compels Startup Founders To Fundraise   One myth a lot of founders fall prey to is the need to constantly fundraise. They're worried that if they don't, their competition is going to swoop right in and outpace them. Or their business is just going to stop growing, and even worse than that, people might not think that they are actually onto a big idea.   To debunk these myths and more, I've invited Erica Brescia, who is the COO and co-founder of Bitnami. Erica has also recently joined XFactor as an investment partner. For those of you who aren't familiar, XFactor is an early-stage investment firm that's looking to invest in female founders and mixed-gender teams. Thanks again for joining us.   Erica Brescia:      Thanks for having me!   Poornima Vijayashanker:         Yeah! I know we talked a little bit in the last segment, but let's just quickly do a refresher, tell us a little bit about your background and what you do at Bitnami.   Erica Brescia:      Sure. Bitnami automates the packaging and maintenance process for server software for containerized, cloud, and behind-the-firewall deployments. We're most known right now for the Bitnami Application Catalog, which contains over 150 different pieces of server software, ranging from business schools, like content management systems, more project management systems, to development tools like GitLab and Jenkins for building out your development processes and pipeline, to stacks of things for building applications, like Node, or Rails, or Django. We work with all of the major cloud providers, and have over a million deployments a month of the apps we package across all the platforms that we support.   Poornima Vijayashanker:         Awesome. In addition to Bitnami, you recently joined XFactor as an investment partner.   Erica Brescia:      I did, yes.   The Difference Between Angel Investors And Venture Capitalists   Poornima Vijayashanker:         Yeah! We talked a little bit about that last time, and I want to pick up the conversation from our last time and dive a little bit more into not only what does XFactor do, but this whole position between angels and venture capitalists. How do you guys think of XFactor? Are you considering yourselves as angels or VCs? Would it help to start with defining angels and VCs?   Erica Brescia:      Sure. I mean, I tend to think of angels as primarily investing their own capital, and VCs are investing other people's capital. We all actually have our own funds in the fund as well, so we're LPs in addition to being the investment partners.   Poornima Vijayashanker:         What does that mean?   Erica Brescia:      That means that we're the people who put money into the fund, as the limited partners, who just put money in the fund, and then they step away, and they entrust, basically, the team of investment partners to invest that capital in companies that will produce ventures that yield returns.   Poornima Vijayashanker:         Where is that money coming from? Is that your own hard-earned money, or is that from somewhere else?   Erica Brescia:      In the case of the LPs for the XFactor fund, it's from a range of different people. Some of them have just been very successful in business. Some may be managing endowments or trusts, or other investment vehicles, and they invest both in the stock market and in VC and angel funds as part of their diversification strategy.   Poornima Vijayashanker:         Got it. I think some of you have also contributed personal funds, right?   Erica Brescia:      Yes. We have put our own funds into the plan as well.   Poornima Vijayashanker:         That's important to note. Yeah.   Erica Brescia:      You've got to put your money where your mouth is, right?   Poornima Vijayashanker:         Great! No, I certainly appreciate you guys doing that.   Erica Brescia:      Plus, honestly, I think we're going to make money off of it! So why would you not do that?   Poornima Vijayashanker:         Exactly!   Erica Brescia:      That is the whole point.   Poornima Vijayashanker:         Yeah. You guys are operating a little bit like angels, but a little bit like VCs as well, but let's dive into more of a traditional VC model. What does that look like?   What Seed Stage Investors Are Really Looking For And The Size Of Check They Write   Erica Brescia:      Sure. The distinction there is interesting, because I would say there's seed-stage financing, which a lot of people think of as coming from angels a lot, but VC funds do as well. Those are typically much smaller rounds and much earlier stage. The company probably has something built, probably has some users, probably can show some traction, but they're usually not raising huge amounts of money, at least not by Silicon Valley standards, which are different than the rest of the world.   Poornima Vijayashanker:         Yeah. Let's get some ranges. Because I know some seeds can get crazy.   Erica Brescia:      Huge. Yes.   Poornima Vijayashanker:         So let's do a more middle-of-the-road seed. What would that look like?   Erica Brescia:      These days, I would say they're usually between $500K and $2 million. I know that's a wide range, sometimes it's smaller, sometimes it's bigger, but the fundraisings that we're participating in are usually somewhere around there. We have had some companies raise significantly more than that, and we've almost gone in more at like a Series A stage. But typically you're raising $1 million or $2million to get your idea off the ground and show a little bit more traction, before you go and raise at a Series A. Those used to be maybe $2 or $3 million. Now, most of the time, you're looking at maybe $6, $7, even $10 or $15 million as a Series A, which we certainly see in the cloud and container space in particular, which is where I'm focused with Bitnami.   Poornima Vijayashanker:         OK. That makes sense. Now, I'm not going to dive into microfunds and syndicates, and all that stuff. We're going to do that in a later episode. But let's go back to you, and let's talk a little bit about how you initially funded Bitnami.   How To Initially Fund Your Startup When You Cannot Attract Investment   Erica Brescia:      Customers.   Poornima Vijayashanker:        Customers!   Erica Brescia:     We sold stuff. Yeah.   Poornima Vijayashanker:         Yeah. When was this, by the way?   Erica Brescia:      We started with a company called BitRock over 10 years ago, and BitRock built some really interesting technology around application packaging and deployment, which has become the foundation of Bitnami. We're very unique, I would say, for a Silicon Valley company. We developed a package software product. We sold it to customers, and we generated money that way.                     Then we started providing a subscription service to a lot of software companies that needed us to build, we called them "stacks" of software, so their products could be installed and distributed very easily, and we worked with a lot of the biggest names in open source, in those days. So we had that money coming in—   Poornima Vijayashanker:         If you don't mind sharing, how big were some of those contracts?   Erica Brescia:      They were in the tens of thousands of dollars a year. So reasonably sized, but we now, in retrospect, we charged far too little. But that's one of the lessons that you learn as a founder, you're always underpricing yourself in the early days.   So we did that, and built up the company that way. Then we decided to evolve into Bitnami. We went through Y Combinator in 2013—   Poornima Vijayashanker:         So before you did that, you actually had revenue coming in?   Erica Brescia:      Yes.   Poornima Vijayashanker:         Give us a range of how big you were at that size?   Erica Brescia:      We had 12 people, and seven figures in revenue, when we—   Poornima Vijayashanker:         Oh! That's fabulous!   Erica Brescia:      —went through Y Combinator.   Poornima Vijayashanker:         Yeah. OK. So why even bother going to—   Erica Brescia:      That's a great question! It was a subject of much debate, but again, interesting story, I suppose. My co-founder's wife had gone through Y Combinator with her own company, and had a great experience with it. And we knew that we wanted to send the company on a different trajectory—   Poornima Vijayashanker:         Which was?   Erica Brescia:      Growth.   Poornima Vijayashanker:         OK. OK!   Erica Brescia:      We wanted to build a huge business, and the model that we'd had previously was really what we talked in the last episode about, more of a lifestyle business. Right? We built a solid business, but that's not what we were there to do. We wanted to build a huge and very meaningful company. And we felt like Y Combinator was the right way to do that.                  It gave us a lot of focus, and helped us make some interesting and difficult decisions. It also helped us a lot with hiring in the early days, and bringing more folks to the team. We've been on a pretty healthy  trajectory since then. Over 75 people. I don't give out revenue numbers, but we're profitable and growing, and doing well.                     All of that money, except for a million dollars, which we still have sitting in the bank, has come in through customers. And that million dollars we raised after going through Y Combinator. We brought in some angel investors whom we really liked, for different reasons. Some of them have a lot of experience in building companies, specifically in our space, and we felt like they could help us a lot with that.                     A couple of them are VCs who invested personally in us, because we didn't want to raise a VC fund, and a few were overseas venture investors, but they make seed stage investments. One from Japan, and one from China. And that was purely because we plan on going into those markets, and we thought it would make sense to have some people over there with a vested interest in our success.                     Y Combinator served as a good catalyst to bring that round together-   Poornima Vijayashanker:         How big was that round?   Erica Brescia:      It was just a million dollars?   Poornima Vijayashanker:         Oh! OK. But you were already in the seven-figure revenue at that point, when you raised that million.   Erica Brescia:      Exactly.   Poornima Vijayashanker:         OK.   Erica Brescia:      And that money is still sitting in the bank, and we've added a healthy amount to it, and—   Poornima Vijayashanker:         That was what year?   Erica Brescia:      2013.   Poornima Vijayashanker:         Oh! It's been a while. It's been four years.   Erica Brescia:      Yep.   Poornima Vijayashanker:         Now, interestingly enough, you have that million, you're raising revenue, and you had grown without a lot of outside capital. I mean, you were already growing, so in that span of time, weren't you afraid that some competitor was just going to swoop right in and go out and raise $10 million or $100 million dollars, and put you out of business?   Don’t Let Competitors Intimidate You Into Fundraising For Your Startup   Erica Brescia:      What's actually funny about that question is we had a bunch of competitors do that, and they all went out of business..   Poornima Vijayashanker:         Oh, OK! Yeah!   Erica Brescia:      OK! Some spectacularly so. One raised $40 million, had huge names. One of the people on their board tried to come and intimidate me, and say I could never compete with—it was actually a woman running that company, too. But I won't name her, because that's not good for anyone.                     Yeah. We had a lot of companies come and raise money, but the model wasn't there yet. And that's why we didn't raise, either, right? There's a time, and we talked about this in the last episode. It's my belief that in most cases, you're better off raising when you have product-market fit. We had that at small scale, but we hadn't found what was really going to fuel exceptional growth of the company. It took us a while to get there, and a bunch of other companies tried to come in and do that, and they all went bust.                     I mean, there is a time and place when I think it does make sense, and when you do have to worry about competitors, because the truth is, once a big name competitor raises a big round, it's really hard to get anyone else to invest in you. I think Docker's a pretty good example of that in my space, right? They have tons of money. Nobody's going to invest in another container startup. Why would you do that? It doesn't make sense for investors.                     It is something to consider, but I think a lot of people spend way too much time worrying about their competitors, and not enough time worrying about their own business.   Poornima Vijayashanker:         Yeah. Or their customers.   Erica Brescia:      Yeah! Or their customers. Exactly. So, yeah, that matters, but you need to do what's right for you, and what's right for what you want out of your life and your business. You should ask yourself those questions. Taking on VC is taking on a lot of additional responsibility, too—   What Kind Of Return Venture Capitalists Look For   Poornima Vijayashanker:         Like what?   Erica Brescia:      Well, they're expecting a certain level of return, right? A $100 million exit is not something a VS wants, where it might be completely life changing for you, if you don't have venture capital in the company. If you're taking venture capital, you're committing to running the company for at least 5–10 years, providing they don't push you out, which happens sometimes, too, if you're not doing things the way they want.                     You're committing to managing a board, with outside parties who are going to have sometimes divergent interests from you. It could even be the case that the fund cycles are usually 10 years, and they have to return the capital to their limited partners, which we talked about earlier. They might need to get out, and want to push you to sell when you don't want to. They might want you to sell to somebody you don't want to.                     There are a lot of great things that come from venture capital, if you partner with the right people. Obviously, you get the capital you need to fuel the growth of your business, and that can be incredibly important, especially to support go-to-market activities, or SaaS business models, where customer acquisition costs might be high, but the LTV is huge. There are reasons to take money.                    I'm not against that. But you also need to understand what you're signing up for, and what it really means, and that there may be an alternative path for you if that's not the path that makes the sense for you. If you don't want to run this company for 5–10 years, and you don't expect to sell it for hundreds of millions, if not billions, of dollars, don't take venture capital. Startups That Focused On Growing Their Business First   Poornima Vijayashanker:         Yeah. Some folks in our audience might be thinking, "Erica, that's fabulous for you and Bitnami, and all of the success, but I could never do that. I couldn't just sit and wait for my business to grow organically." Are there other examples of companies here in the Valley, that you're familiar with, who have done a similar approach? I know I can think of a couple, but I'm curious—   Erica Brescia:      Absolutely! Well, Atlassian, they're in the Valley now, but they came from Australia, and that's a spectacular story. They really couldn't raise, because they were in Australia, and especially back then, the VC climate in Australia was almost nonexistent. They raised very late, and a lot of it was secondary to the employees, and they've done spectacularly well. GitHub's another example. They raised very, very late in the process, in a very big round, and that gave them a lot of flexibility to do other things.                     We've seen that happen a lot. It really depends. Again, I think, going back to what I said before about product-market fit. It's my view that the best time to raise is when you just need fuel for the engine. You already know how the engine works, and it's already built, and the machine is there, and you know, "If I put X in, I'm going to get Y out." Right? That's when you can really take advantage of venture capital, and that's when it can really make a difference.                    I'm not saying take a long time to build your company like I did. I would certainly do a lot of things differently this time around, but a lot of it just has to do with where the business is, and what the capital's going to be used for.   Poornima Vijayashanker:         It's been a four-year period, right? Where you haven't taken outside investment. You took the initial million. But in that period of time, how has not taking capital, or not thinking about fundraising, how has that helped you and Bitnami?   Erica Brescia:      Well, several ways. I think the most important thing is focus. Not having $10 or $20 or $50 million in the bank makes you focus on what's really going to move the business forward. It's really easy, and I have seen this countless times with companies that I will not name. They raise a ton of money, and they go out and hire a ton of people, and everything falls apart.                     Because humans are humans, right? These are not just cogs in the machine, especially when you're trying to build a breakthrough or game-changing product. You need incredibly smart people. They're going to have strong personalities. They're going to have past experiences from other companies. And you need to be able to get those people to work well together. So many startups have failed in doing that, and it's led to their own demise, or at least slowed them down a lot, and really burned a lot of bridges with fantastic employees.   I'd say it's allowed us to build out the infrastructure to responsibly scale the team, and it's helped us to focus, again, on making the right investments in terms of where we're spending our time. It's also great for negotiating business deals, I will tell you. That doesn't come up a lot—   How To Compel Customers To Do Business With Your Startup   Poornima Vijayashanker:         How so?   Erica Brescia:      I was in meetings, even earlier this week, and these are quite big, multimillion-dollar-a-year deals, and they were asking some questions about what the business model looked like, and I could look at these people with a straight face and say like, "Look, we're not VC backed. My company needs to make money. You want me to be around. This needs to make sense for us, financially."                     That drives a lot of my decision making. I'm very, very involved in the corporate and business development stuff that we do. I need to do deals that make sense for my business. For some reason, it's a lot easier for people to get their heads around that when you don't have venture capital, which is kind of a funny thing, right?   Poornima Vijayashanker:         Well, people understand where you're coming from, and what resources you have at that level.   Erica Brescia:      Yeah! I'm not BSing them. "I have to pay people, and you're going to get a lot of value out of this, and you need to pay me, and I'm not going to do it on a bet that the relationship itself is going to benefit me enough, because that wouldn't be responsible business." That's what I go to all the time. It's not responsible business, you're not doing it. I think being bootstrapped and funding through customers really helps you think through that and make very good business decisions. We say no to all kinds of things, too. And I think that's easier, as a result of that.                    The one other aspect I'd say is, we don't have to manage investors. It takes a lot of time to build investor relationships, which I do do that anyway, because we may r

Today's topic covers one of those "Yah, it served everyone well when I was a kid, but not any more!" mindsets and behaviors from yesteryear: using our indoor voice. In today's episode, I share two very different stories around this idea of using your indoor-voice: one externally imposed and one internally. If you see either of these stories in your life and are looking for a way to dig deeper on the topic, I've created a beautiful gift just for you over at unsabotage.com/tryit. Here's today's transcript: Hey, Gorgeous. Ginny Townsend here with UnSabotage, which is beautiful and unique community of women, gathered together to find out what's been holding them back, move that out of the way, and step into a life they adore. Thank you so much, for joining me today on this Facebook Live. If you had a chance to read the description before you jumped on, this Facebook Live is about the idea of using your indoor-voice. The idea has been on my mind, it's been captivating to me for the last almost year. I have two stories for you today that are quite different, but I think they both really illustrate one side of using your indoor-voice, and why I think it's a disservice to you and to your world. With these two stories ... If you resonate with the first story, I'm going to ask you to type, "One", in the comments box. If you resonate with the second story, I want you to comment, "Two", in the comments box. If you resonate with both of them, then type, "Both." The first story about the indoor-voice: One of my dear, dear friends, she is known for having the best laughter in the room. When she is happy, or joyful, or something just tickles her funny bone, her laugh... she does not hold back, and it's really sweet, it's endearing, and it's definitely a part of her personality. About a year ago, she was telling me this story of how one day at work, one of her coworkers said something to make her laugh, and she just was like, "Bah-ha-ha-ha" You know, just really let loose, and enjoyed that moment of complete humor. Then, another coworker looked over to her, and said, "Do you even have an indoor-voice?" My heart hurt for her when she shared that story with me. She felt embarrassed, obviously. Then, she just withdrew for the rest of the day. She just really didn't want to be around people, and I think her trust of the people went down. That is one story of the idea of using your indoor-voice. Then, the second story is actually my own story. It has to do with a number of years ago, I was invited to be a part of this strategic meeting, and a lot of really big decisions were going to be made, on the moving forward of this organization I was a part of, all based on that meeting. We all prepared, we put together some strategies and some models, and then, when we got to that meeting, I presented, or, one of the models was presented that I had come up with, and it was dismissed with laughter, and that's not really the main point of it. Really, the point of it was, I immediately felt like, "Oh, no. Was I not prepared? Did I miss an email? Obviously I'm not privy to what's going on. Have they had other conversations?" It was all of these stories going on in my mind, and as a result I withdrew. I didn't say much for the rest of the meeting. Then, afterwards, when we were driving back from the meeting, the person I rode with asks, "So, what'd you think of that? What did you think of that conversation?" I was like, "You know what? It was different than I thought it would be, but I still feel like I don't have this question answered", and laid it out again. Then, the person that I was driving with looked at me, and was like, "That's exactly why I asked you to be a part of this meeting." It made me stop and think, because, while the first story of using your indoor-voice, was someone else had told her to use her indoor-voice, but in this instance, I had told myself to use my indoor-voice. I've thought a lot about this idea when we were growing up, there's obviously a place to be polite and courteous and respectful of your surroundings, and use your indoor-voice, but I think it can carry over into what we're doing as adults, who we want to be, and how we hold ourselves back. If I were to answer, "So, why is this important? What is the idea of having an indoor-voice, not" or pushing back on the idea of using our indoor-voice. Why is that important? There's several different ways I can go with this, but one I keep coming back to is, the world can seem huge, and daunting, and like, what can we do to make a difference in it? But something that I'm challenging myself to do, and so, I'm going to challenge you to do, is to take a look at like, "Okay, maybe changing the world is overwhelming and daunting, but what can I do to change my world? What can I offer? What words can I say that are said in love, that are said in healing, that are powerful, that I can actually help to change my world?" I hope you found those two stories valuable, and I want to also close the loop, and say, "Yeah. Okay, we can make the case for using our indoor-voice is not serving us at our highest good, and our world around us." We can get that in theory, but what do we do about it? I went ahead and I created a gift, just for you, and if you go over to unsabotage.com/tryit there is a free printable, just for you. It's called, "UnClutter." If you download it, I encourage you to first acknowledge, which story resonated with you the most. Was it the first one, my friend that had the laughter and was told to use her indoor-voice, or the second one, where I told myself to use my own indoor-voice? Which one resonated with you the most? Then, I encourage you to think, and to jot, and to journal about what your voice specifically can offer in changing your world. Because, like I said, your voice is beautiful, it is healing, and loving, and powerful. Your world needs your voice in it. Again, did story number one resonate with you, or number two resonate with you? Go ahead and write that in the comments, and then hop on over to unsabotage.com/tryit. I hope you have an amazing week. I hope you do not use your indoor-voice, and I will talk to you again next Tuesday. Bye, Gorgeous!

Cass Midgley and Dr. Bob Pondillo interview Rebecca Fox. Rebecca is the artist and author of a new graphic novel titled "Murmurs of Doubt: Twelve Skeptical Graphic Novellas." She's British and was raised by apatheist parents but got caught up in the Wiccan religion in her teens. Rebecca is an impressive, sharp communicator with an interesting personal journey that we're delighted to bring you. On her website about the book Rebecca writes, "I’m not the same person I was ten years ago. And neither are you. I wanted to write stories about those moments of epiphany when we begin to change, to see through superstition and dogma and get a glimpse of the really real world. But that’s impossible. The closer I looked for those moments the more slippery they became and as I wrote and drew I realised I was telling stories about doubt… bubbling under the surface in everyone's lives, ready to transform us. Murmurs of Doubt is a collection of twelve comics about people from diverse backgrounds and cultures experiencing doubt and becoming someone new. At around the one hour mark of this conversation, Rebecca references Leo Igwe's Skeptical Manifesto for Africa, from which I'm about to read. I found this to be a very practical application for atheist activism in the world that pushes back against the toxic effects of non-critical thinking and superstition. It occurred to me as an opportunity for us to apply our heartfelt concerns for how religious thinking is literally arresting social development around the world. You can Google a Skeptic's Manifesto for Africa, which I've linked in the shownotes, and donate to this cause. The following excerpt from Igwe's post demonstrates a religious hegemonic stronghold even greater than that of the American South. I found this interesting because, as much as we here in America have felt the negative repercussions of religion, it's destructive swath reaches well past our Western borders, with far worse ramifications. I hope you caught the phrase, "skeptical spring." This notion inspired me to keep putting out episodes of this podcast. To keep speaking out about the integrity of critical thinking. Christians have a scripture that propels them out of complacency in Romans 1:16, "I am not ashamed of the gospel." Well, they should be ashamed, and we, with the truth and morality and human progress on our side should not be ashamed. Obviously I'm not endorsing that we become assholes like them, but that we not shrink back from opportunities to inform the curious, educate the confused, and embolden the cowardly.   We taped this conversation on July 15th, 2017. We interview people you don’t know, about a subject no one wants to talk about. We hope to encourage people in the process of deconstructing their faith and help curb the loneliness that accompanies it. We think the world is a better place when more people live by sight, not by faith. Please subscribe to our podcast, and leave a review wherever you listen to podcasts. Our show is available on most podcast platforms.  Also, you can support us monetarily in two easy ways: you can pledge one dollar per episode through Patreon; that’s www.patreon.com/eapodcast, or leave a lump-sum donation through PayPal at our website, www.everyonesagnostic.com. The smallest contribution is greatly appreciated. Credits:"Towering Mountain of Ignorance" intro by Hank Green https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3v3S82TuxU Intro bumper "Never Know" by Jack JohnsonThe segue music is on this episode was created by the Barry Orchestra found at https://barryorchestra.bandcamp.com/ Thanks for listening and be a yes-sayer to what is. http://doubtcomic.com/ "Murmurs of Doubt" on Amazon How to contact Rebecca Fox Rebecca's website Leo Igwe's Skeptical Manifesto for Africa So that’s our talk with Rebecca Fox calling from England. I love her. Her personality, her way of communicating…it doesn’t hurt that she’s got a lovely British accent. We learned a little about the Wiccan belief system and its geographical variations. You know, we all love Bob. We love his naïve perspective. And we can see, in a very innocent way, how a lack of understanding can be the source of judgment. Bob was not at all judgmental of Rebecca, but you can see his impatience or intolerance, if you will, of woo-woo beliefs. One of David Richo’s declarations of healthy adulthood is “Until I see another’s behavior with compassion, I have not understood it.” All fear and judgment of another human being are only afforded to those who have not experienced that person’s life, they’ve not walked a mile in their shoes, if they had—and I mean this of Charles Manson or Jeffrey Dahmer,etc.—they would have a much better understanding of why they did what they did. We might even be able to say we would’ve done the same thing under the same circumstances. And by circumstances I mean their mental health, their brain, their childhood, their history, their entire context. So I just want to keep erecting this beautiful standard of connectedness and seeing yourself in everyone else. This is will naturally and with little effort make you a better person—wiser and smarter and kinder. Our friend and former guest of this podcast, Chris Nelson (Ep 101) posted on FB this week, “Every encounter with another human being is like being able to read a half a page from the middle of a novel and then someone grabs the book away.” This both tags onto the connectedness we’re talking about and describes how I feel about every guest we have on. Getting this little glimpse of Rebecca Fox, for example, let’s us peer into someone else’s novel that’s been written and is still being written every day that we’re alive. This human experience is rather amazing, wouldn’t you say? Just consciousness itself. Before we were born we couldn’t engage with each other, we couldn’t see, smell, feel, orgasm, eat, create some kind of art, listen to music, dance, or play with friends. Someday all this will end for each of us. And while some us like Rebeccca and myself (not Bob) tried to find extra meaning and magic and supernatural imaginations, we’re finding that even as those things prove to be false, the truth of our existence, our reality, our relationships are more than enough awe-striking and magic and wonderful without needing to delude ourselves or lie to ourselves. In fact, we’re learning to jump in rather than escape. We’re learning to say yes to what is. 

Description: Heather Craik shares with us some pitfalls of dating as a single mom, with some pretty crazy results. Plus a food that fills you up from the inside outHi everybody, I'm Barbara Fernandez, the Rocking Raw Chef, here with my Clean Food, Dirty Stories: one to entertain, the other to inspire.I help people stamp out stress, depression and fatigue over at RockingRawChef.com, and today's title is:How Not To Date As A Single Mom (And Still Find Love Anyway)In addition to this story, at the end of this episode I'll share with you the best food to feel full, in other words, to fill you up from the inside out.OK enough hints from me, let's get on with the story.Our guest, Heather CraikI am super excited to be joined here today for our story by Heather Craik. Heather's going to share with us what it can be like to start out life as a single mom, explore dating on Tinder (which like I've never done) and have long distance relationships (which I haven't done either). So all that sounds super interesting to me! She now helps people solve a completely different kind of problem which we'll mention later.For now though, Heather, welcome to the Clean Food, Dirty Stories podcast! I've been looking forward to having you ever since you told me about your incredible, roller-coaster story!Heather: Hey, thanks for having me. Glad to be here.Me: You're so welcome. So I think if I understood it correctly that your story starts where you were with somebody and you got pregnant? And then you wound up being a single mom? Can you talk about how that came about, maybe?Heather's storyHeather: Yeah, sure. I mean I'd been with this guy for about nine years or so and that's an entirely different story in and of itself. But what happened was I was in Canada when I fell pregnant. And because I wasn't expecting to fall pregnant in Canada, I didn't actually have medical coverage for that. So I came back home to the UK which is where I'm from. And you know a couple of months after that I realized that it was really not working out with this other guy.Me: The nine year guy.Heather: So that was just a bit entertaining for a while. I broke it off with him and went through the rest of my pregnancy, it was just me. My parents were there which was really helpful. But I was about 5 months pregnant I reckon when it ended.Me: That is so, I have to say that is just so, so brave! Oh my goodness. Like how did you...how did you feel like when you... I mean, yeah, how did you feel? I can imagine – I can't imagine, I mean I've been pregnant, I have two kids. But how did you feel when you just like made that, made that decision, you know? To...Heather: Well I think leading up to it was quite stressful. And I noticed that before the decision was actually made, I felt stressed for a lot of days, but once it was done and it was over I actually felt relieved. Which I think was really telling.Me: Wow. That's really telling. Especially like the situation you were in, right? Cause I know that for me, when I was pregnant in some ways I felt kind of vulnerable, you know? Because you're carrying this childHeather: Oh yeah, entirely. I was back staying with my parents even. So yeah. But they were great, by the way. My parents were fantastic from the word go.Me: Oh wow, that's really good. Well I'm sure that at the end of the day they just really want you to be happy, right?Heather: Yeah, they're really good that way.Rebuilding a businessMe: So then you started out as a single mom, so was your son born when you were still living with your parents? I mean, were you working at all?Heather: Yeah, I was still with my parents for about 10 months after he was born, actually. So I was working, I had started work on my business at that point but it hadn't really fully taken off. I had my business before I fell pregnant, let's just clear that up. But then it sort of, you know, the whole moving country and then being very pregnant and then having a very small child, it had fallen by the wayside. So I had to kind of build that back up again.Me: Yeah. Wow. I can't even imagine, like, I don't know, I started...I started my business when my kids were like 10 and 12 or something like that. But I think I was so traumatized when my son was born, my first child, that I don't think I could have had any head for business at all. It was like...Heather: Oh I tell you what, pregnancy brain is such a real thing though. You don't realize it, but probably the last couple of months of my pregnancy and for three months after I couldn't focus on my work at all. I would try, I would sit down in this dazed fog and try to code and it just did not work.Me: Wow, I guess because...that would be an interesting topic in and of itself, right? Pregnancy brain and why it happens and everything. I mean you've got another being with you, right? That's, that could be...that's the first thing that comes to my mind. That must have been really hard. But at least your parents were there to help out, right? I imagine when your son was born, then...Heather: Yeah, I didn't have to cook for the longest time! That was hugely helpful!Me: Oh! Heaven! (laughs)Heather: I know! I do miss that!Time to start dating againMe: Yeah! So then how old was...cause I know that at some point you did...you did want to start dating again. How old was your son when you were like, 'OK, I'm gonna just, you know...'Heather: I think just over a year, actually.Me: And was there anything that happened? Any specific, I don't know, moment or incident that caused you to think, 'OK I'm ready to date now'? I mean, it's a pretty big decision, right?Heather: Honestly, it had been a very long time for me since I'd had any...you know, any of that wonderful sex stuff. Me: Any action. Yeah, of course!Heather: And it was getting to that point...I had moved out which was, you know, helpful. So I'd moved out and had my own place and my son was more settled, he started to sleep better at night which was a real help. Yeah, that was pretty much what led up to it.Me: Wow. And then so you said that you started finding people...How did you start finding people? I'll let you talk about it!Trials of TinderHeather: Well since I pretty much live online anyway, I automatically gravitated over to dating sites. You know, I'd been hearing a lot about Tinder because I'm of that age group that they obviously target for that kind of thing. So I thought 'OK whatever, I'll have a look'. I wasn't expecting to find anybody but I thought whatever, it would be worth a laugh at least.Me: So then like sorry, for people who don't know what Tinder is, can you say a little bit about like how it works?Heather: OK well basically, what Tinder is, it's an app first and foremost. It links into your Facebook but it doesn't post to your Facebook. It just pulls information from there. And you know, you get these photos that come up and you either swipe right if you'd like to talk to them or swipe left if you don't want anything to do with them. Me: Yup (laughs).Heather: So what happens is if you swipe right and someone else, like the one you just swiped right on also swipes right, then you can start a conversation.Me: Right. Kind of like shopping, I guess.Heather: Kinda sorta. You already have that 'OK well we both agreed we like something about you'. You get that. By its nature it can be quite shallow, but there actually are descriptions and bios as well. People don't actually read them...Me: That was my other question as well. Cause if you swipe...So do you have the description under the picture that you can read before you swipe? Or do you only swipe based on...Heather: Yeah, you can see it under the picture. You just have to click and you can read it. Not everyone does.Me: Of course, yeah I can imagine. Interesting people...or notSo you met some pretty interesting people on Tinder, right? I believe there's a little story there...Heather: Oh, yes, did I ever!There were a few interesting ones I will grant you, but the one that still sticks in my head was this one guy. And I don't remember his name, I don't even really remember what he looks like, but I remember he was quite reasonable at first. So obviously we'd both swiped to the right to talk, whatever. We'd exchanged a couple of messages and then pretty much off the bat he was like, “Well I like Lego”. As one of his interests. And I was like “OK, well Lego's pretty cool, fine.” And then he comes back with, “No, no, I really like Lego”. Before I had a chance to respond to that, he follows up with this other message saying that he likes to put it in certain places and I'm afraid that I was out. All done. No way!Me: Oh no, that's too weird (laughs). Did you actually like meet live with anybody on Tinder?Heather: I did actually meet live with one of them and honestly it was probably one of the more shallow ones. It was just one of those 'hey he looked good I looked good'. Fine. We'll meet up. And he was a nice guy, still is a nice guy. Not the brightest tool in the shed, but yeah, we did meet up and we did engage in some activites and that was fine. But not particulary fulfilling, I would say.Is Tinder worth it?Me: Yeah. So is your conclusion that it's probably good for the shallow stuff but not much more? Is that what you would say?Heather: I reckon it probably could work for people that had a bit more time. There were certainly some interesting people there that I reckon if you'd gone out and spoken to them in a coffee type setting that might have been OK. But a lot of people do just go on and use it for shallow whatevers.Me: Yeah. So then, how long did you kind of like play around with Tinder before you went on to somebody else that...yeah? (laughs)Heather: Probably around a month and a half or two months, I was just bored by that point. And you're having to keep up all these other conversations too. It seems sort of mean to be like 'OK I'm not that interested' but at the same time...not that interested.Me: Yeah, and it's time and everything that you're taking up, right?Enter the former loverSo then how did the former lover come into the picture?Heather: Ah, well you see he was one of those people that we never went particularly far emotionally. That was just never our thing. But we had been lovers obviously on and off. And he...I'm not sure how that started again actually, I think what happened was we started talking again cause we were phasing in and out of each other's lives anyway. We started talking again and it was just one of those 'hey OK, so do you just want to come over' type things. I think I actually started out telling him that nothing was gonna happen, and that was obviously not what actually happened.Me: I had somebody like that too. It was actually quite handy, it was because I used to be a singing waitress and a singing coat check girl in this like fancy French restaurant place. Very, totally random and there were lots of different bands that came through and there was a guy like that. You know, we had a kind of understanding that if, you know, if we were in the mood for just something superficial, we'd just, you know, it's fine.Heather: Yeah, and it's not like you don't care, it's just never ever gonna be anything else.Me: And then I feel like, you know, well I think there's a place for that right? If that's what you want and that's what they want, I mean why not, right?Heather: Yeah, I mean it worked out pretty well for that.A long distance relationshipMe: And then you said that after that you somehow then found yourself in a long distance relationship, I mean how did that happen?Heather: Yes, I kinda did. So this guy was somebody that I'd met in Canada about 6 years prior, nothing ever happened there. He was friends to us both but we'd sort of lost contact for a while. We hadn't really seen each other for a while. We started talking again, it must have been a couple months after Gabriel turned one, so it must have been September probably that we started talking again. I was minding my own business, not looking for anything in particular. And he just admits that he likes me, and I'm like “Oh, OK” because I'd always sort of had a thing for him too. So we did that and then it just went boom. Right time. We gave it a go.Me: And then how did you...but you said it was long distance, so like how did that work? Did you like Skype each other?Heather: What we used to do was we would talk a lot on Facebook messenger because that was the quickest and easiest way. But he would also video call. Like after a few months we realized that worked a bit better. He would hop on video and we'd talk. Which, you know, it was fine when my kid was asleep.If he isn't a kid kind of guy...But for whatever reason my sweet, darling toddler that loves everybody hated when I was on video with this guy. He was fine with video with other people even. Hated it. Tantrum after about 10 minutes, did not like it.Me: I wonder why.Heather: Yeah, I mean to be fair, this guy didn't particularly like him either. He tried, but he wasn't ever a kids type person and you know he really didn't like my ex either which didn't help matters because honestly...they're related, so...Me: Oh, your son and your ex, yeah.Heather: Yeah. So, yeah, that didn't go very well. He did make an honest effort but that's not really something you can make an honest effort on. Which is kind of why we ended up splitting actually. It was that and the distance. Because I realized that I didn't want to move back to Canada and he had realized that he didn't want to move either.Me: So how long were you in that kind of situation with him before you were like 'oh well this isn't really gonna go anywhere'.Heather: Well I think probably that entire relationship lasted about 5 months. It was about a month or two of 'OK what are we gonna do about this' so that wasn't particularly fun. And then it became really obvious at the end that it was just never gonna change really. I did entertain the thought of moving for a little while. And I know that he tried thinking about moving too for a little while, and we just wouldn't have been happy moving, either of us, so.Trying out BumbleMe: You said that once you moved on from the long distance relationship, you mentioned something called Bumble. What's that?Heather: Oh, Bumble, right. So it's kind of like Tinder, but with a very noticeable difference. Only the women can do the first message and you only get 24 hours after you've matched to make that message. And then they get 24 hours to message back, and if no-one does within their time frame, that's it. Unless you pay. Some people pay.Me: And how did you find that compared to Tinder?Heather: Honestly it was very similar, but the people seemed to be looking for deeper connections in general. In general. But there were obviously still plenty of the 'oh hey, I just want a casual something'. That's fine, if that's what you're looking for.Me: And then did you meet a lot of people on Bumble?Heather: There were a few people I spoke to actually, and some of them were quite lovely. And there was one I actually met up with. He was fine, we sort of met up during the day at one point first of all. You know, we got on great, it was OK. I think we went to the park actually, so Gabriel was actually there. He was running about at the park. This other guy was there and it was fine, there was nothing going on. We would up meeting up the next evening. And basically we did the kissing thing and then the other stuff, but oh my God no!Kissing a black holeHow would I describe this delicately? Probably not very well, but I'll describe it anyway. Imagine a black hole and imagine chicken pecks and combine the two. And that was his kissing.Me: Oh, that's horrible!Heather: And the sex itself was not much better.Me: Oh, OK that's actually, that's a really good image. That's a bit scary, it's kind of a bit freaky.Heather: Yeah, you sort of wonder how they get to that age without knowing how to kiss. But anyway.Me: I guess some people do, right? I guess that didn't go anywhere! Heather: That did not!Me: (laughs) And then you said you found yourself in another long distance relationship? Or not a relationship?Heather: Ah, completely accidentally, I had in fact sworn off boys at this point. I was like 'you know what, I don't even care anymore. I'm not doing this dating thing anymore, I'm happy on my own'. Because it had come to that point, right? My business was going well by this point. I was perfectly happy just not looking for somebody. That was me at this point.Me: I mean then did you think...sorry, did you think that...when you say you were perfectly happy not looking for somebody, was it because you thought 'oh there's no point, they're all gonna be a bit crap' or was it because...Heather: There was a bit of that but it was more that I wasn't that fussed about it anymore.When you're perfectly happy on your ownMe: Oh! What happened for you to like be not fussed?Heather: I think it was a combination of the ending of that long distance relationship. Because I had cared quite a bit and then obviously it didn't work for practical reasons. Combined with...I'm gonna call it a sex experience, but it's not...you know the one. And then also combined with I'd reached a point where I really wasn't lacking anything.I think probably the reason I started looking in the first place was that I felt this longing for a connection, right? But by that point I was actually OK on my own. I didn't need that to validate me anymore.Me: So the interesting thing I find about that is that there are so many people who try to get to that point through conscious effort, right? For example they think to themselves, 'oh I keep reaching out to others for connection and I'm kind of just fed up because nothing's working. I'm just gonna be by myself and do a lot of introspection'. And stuff like that. Whereas with you...Like in other words, they try to get to that point by working on themselves in a very conscious way. Whereas with you it sounds like it was a very kind of like organic process.Heather: It was completely accidental! I was just doing my own thing.Me: Did it have anything to do with your business doing well? Because I know you did say at one point that it was quite hard with your business, right? There was a bit of a tough period.Heather: Well yeah, because obviously I had a young child. It's not that easy to juggle with business, especially since I was used to just running it by myself.Being your own personI think that took some getting used to. But no, what happened was over the course of that long distance relationship that lasted about 5 months, my business started to take off and have more traction. My child, very helpfully, started sleeping through the night. I wasn't a sleep-deprived zombie anymore. That was a lot more fun! I started to take better care of myself again and you know what? He was actually quite good for me in that regard because I started to explore being my own person again which was really quite helpful too.Me: Oh I know what you mean.Heather: All that combined so that I found who I was again.Me: I know what you mean, it's kind of...cause I can remember that stage with my own kids. It's kind of like, yeah, you do get your own life back in a sense. I think you put it well to me in an email when you said like a mombie, right? You're walking around with no sleep.Heather: Yeah, up until that point I don't think I had slept more than two hours in a row since he was born. Because his longest period of sleep...And that only happened when he was about a year old maybe, was four hours and then two hours and then two hours and then one. But obviously I was still up. So I got two, two, one and a half if I was lucky...Self-affirmationMe: Oh wow. So then...I was gonna ask you something about that. And then your business started to take off, right? You got more clients and everything? Do you think...cause I don't know about you, but for me I know that when the business stuff starts to go really well, that's a big, a big kind of self-affirmation, in a way.Heather: Yeah, it's like this realization 'oh hey I can make it work. It's doing well, I can do this'. That point that you get to. I'd had it before, but I think with being pregnant and having my kid...There was a part of me that was initially worried that 'oh my gosh, what if I don't ever get this back?' You know? So obviously that had been appeased by that point because I started to see it come back again.Me: So then now where are you at now with that? I mean I know that your business is going well. But do you also like, are you at the point where you have somebody in your life? Or are you at the point where...Heather: Oh yeah, it's actually really funny. It was probably about a week after I got to this realization that I was totally fine. I could just have a business and have my son and maybe go travelling and all this fun stuff....Along comes the right guyAlong comes this guy that I'd been speaking to probably since October. He was a friend of a friend, we'd started talking on Facebook. I think we met once some years ago for like 5 minutes. So we'd been talking and we get along really well. We'd video chat just as friends, whatever. And so somewhere in there he decided to profess his undying love for me which was helpful.Me: Oh, wow.Heather: I'll be fair, I do love him too. We are not together. I am still single because I'm incredibly stubborn and I'm not doing the long distance thing again. But he's actually looking at moving here at some point.Me: Wait, so is he in Canada at the moment?Heather: Yup, he's in Canada as well.Me: Oh! Yeah, you've gotta get those guys out of Canada, right?Heather: Yeah, I'm just gonna need to import somebody.Me: Exactly. Well, just the good one, right? The other guys can stay over there.Heather: Yeah, they can stay as far away as they need too.Me: Just get the good one. Being clear about what you wantMe: So are you...how can I put this? Have you basically just said to him, you know, “I'm not moving, if you want us to be together then this is how it's gonna work. And I need you to come here” kind of thing?Heather: Pretty much, yes. What happened was that I was quite open with the fact that I'm not leaving here. Or that if I did leave from here, it would just be to Europe maybe. You know, fairly local because I don't want to leave my family behind again.Me: Especially with your son and everything, right?Heather: Yeah, and a ten hour flight each way is not ideal.Me: Oh I know, I've done that, yeah!Heather: That's where I came into it. And he was all like, well he was initially all 'No I don't want to move either'. Which was fine because, you know, we weren't dating. But he sort of came round to the idea. I think what happened for him basically is he looked at it and decided, 'Actually I don't have much to keep me really. And I want to be over there with her, so...' That's where he came to it.Me: Wow, so yeah, you'll soon have somebody flying halfway across the world to be with you, which is pretty cool, right? Heather: Yes, it makes a change.Me: Exactly! Rather than you doing all the flying, that's really good.What Heather does nowSo what about...so now I know that with your business and everything, well. I'd love to ask you about what you're doing now because I know for a fact that what you're doing now is super helpful to people like me!Heather: Yeah, OK. So what I do is, I run Designmancy. And basically what I do there is I will take your WordPress site and I can build it, I can repair it, I can train you how to use it. I can fix it...Anything you could possibly need for WordPress, that is what I do. I'm your coder fixer gal, basically.Me: Wow that is really cool. And you take on all different kinds of projects, everything from like building sites to fixing existing sites...Heather: Oh yeah, I mean I am honestly at my happiest when I'm getting to fix bits and pieces of code or getting to build something new. Really I get kind of twitchy if I've not fixed anything for a couple of weeks, so just give me something to do!Me: Oh just give me a call, I've got plenty to fix!Heather: Basically that's how I work.Me: That's really cool. And of course you can do it from anywhere, right?Heather: Well yeah, that's a big help too.Me: That's fantastic! Brilliant! What's your...Oh I'll put the link to your website in the show notes. But for the benefit of people listening, where's the best place for them to find you?Where to find HeatherHeather: OK, probably the best place to find me is designmancy.com. I'll spell it cause it's a bit of a weird word. It's design, I think we all know that bit! And then it's mancy dot com. That's the best place to reach me. Depending on when you get there my site may still just be a 'coming soon' page. Because cobbler's shoes and all that stuff. But it does have this really nice early bird discount, so hop on over!Me: Super! So then I have another question for you. Is that the new design of your website? Because your business is already, you know, going well and making money and stuff, I assume you got your previous clients from a previous website? Is that right?Heather: Well I had had a website there for a while but it was never really that good. I've actually been getting a lot of my clients from Facebook groups and referrals and word of mouth. I've not been using my site as much but it has gotten to the point where I really need it to work. I'm really excited by this actually, I've hired a copywriter to help me. So she's doing all my written content. Obviously I'm doing my website bit but I've got a photographer and all that fun stuff as well. It's coming together really quite nicely and it's exciting!Me: Super! And I do know that it's very cobbler's shoes, right? That, you know, the WordPress site designer whose WordPress site isn't designed yet because you're doing everybody else's, right?Super! Oh thank you so much Heather for being here to share your story with us. I love that, so...Heather: Thank you Barbara, I'm so glad I got to be here and thanks for having me!An ideal food to feel fullMe: You're so welcome! So, I mentioned at the beginning of this episode that I'd share with you one of the best foods to fill you up. It's a great comfort food that's actually good for you. And that food is...oats!Now oats are a very powerful yet often underestimated food. They really do help fill you up and give you energy over long periods. As do chia seeds, which I've spoken about in a previous episode.And the reason I'm mentioning food to feel full is because a lot of us could reach for fulfilment in the arms of someone. Man, woman, whatever. But this food can actually fill you up without reaching for anybody's arms. And then you can still reach for the arms of somebody if you want to!In terms of food to feel full, in one study done in Australia, oats actually ranked at number 3 for a 'satiety index'. Which basically is a number allocated to how good particular foods are at satisfying hunger and contributing to a feeling of fullness. Some researchers have found that eating oats can help reduce appetite as well. So if you make yourself some oatmeal with apples, you'd be giving yourself a double whammy of food to feel full, as it were, because apples are good appetite-reducers too.I'm sure that if you've eaten oats, well you may not be very surprised at that because you've probably experienced feeling pretty full after a bowl of, say, oatmeal or porridge as they say in the UK.Other benefits of oatsDid you know that oats do have a lot of benefits, and one of the benefits is that they're great for your gut? They're high in fiber so they're very helpful for digestion, and some researchers believe that they may even help boost some of the beneficial bacteria in our gut.The other cool thing about oats is that they can be very helpful for lowering cholesterol. The oats bind with cholesterol and therefore help remove excess from your body. I've got personal experience with this because my ex-husband used to be on medication for high cholesterol, until he did two things. The first one was he started eating my food, but also he added in oats at breakfast. Within a year he was off the medication and that was about 10 years ago now. And if anyone comes near him and says the word 'oats', they will get an earful about how oats bind with cholesterol and you know, blah blah blah. He goes on about it(!)But the benefits of oats don't stop there. You don't have to eat them, you can bathe in them! For help with inflamed skin conditions such as eczema, chickenpox or even sunburn, you can add one cup of finely ground oats to your bathwater and let your skin soak up all that goodness.What oats containAs to what oats contain, they have many minerals, such as selenium, magnesium, phosphorus, manganese and zinc. So the phosphorus helps if for example you've got students in your house for example and they're studying for exams and things, phosphorus can help there too.Many people ask if oats contain gluten. It's important to note here that oats of themselves don't actually contain gluten. However, if you are celiac or extremely sensitive to even traces of gluten, you'll want to check the provenance of your oats. Because sometimes they can pick up traces of gluten if they are grown next to a field of gluten-containing grains such as wheat or barley. You can buy packages of oats that are marked gluten-free, they're just a bit more expensive. But you can get them.How to eat oatsAs to how to eat oats, when you're faced with buying oats in the supermarket, you may get a bit confused. There are steel-cut oats, oat groats, rolled oats, Scottish oats... all kinds of oats! I'll link to an article below that spells out the different kinds so that you'll know what to buy without tearing your hair out.Personally I use two kinds. I use oat groats, which are the whole grains. They're great for soaking overnight and making into oat milk, and they're also really good for grinding for making oat flour. I also use rolled oats which are basically hearty flakes. They're oat groats that have been pressed flat and they're great for making energy bites.I've got some recipes that use oats in my 5-Minute Chocolate Heaven ebook, so if you'd like to take a look, I'll post the link below in the show notes. Have YOU got a story to share?Which brings us to the end of this week's story – and if you've got a true story to share (and you'd like to know what food could have saved the day or enhanced your situation), I'd love to hear from you! Got a question, or a comment?Got a question, or a comment? Pop a note below in the comments, that would be awesome. You can also subscribe to the podcast to listen 'on the go' in iTunes, Stitcher or TuneIn.I hope you have an amazing day. Thank you so much for being here with me to share in my Clean Food, Dirty Stories. Bye for now!RESOURCESLink to 5-Minute Chocolate Heaven and other recipe ebooks: https://rockingrawchef.com/5-minute-recipes/Article on health benefits of oats: http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/270680.phpAn easy explanation of the different types of oats: http://www.webmd.com/diet/oatmeal-benefits#1Heather's bio: Heather runs Designmancy, your place for WordPress design, repairs and training, while raising a 2 year old son and generally plotting to take over the world.Heather's website: http://designmancy.comFind Heather on Facebook and Instagram​

Well, it's been long time since I did something crazy on this podcast. :) In this episodes I took on a challenge of doing 100 push-ups live while clarifying 10 random items of vocabulary. Obviously I'm not doing this in one go but rather one step at a time. Anyway, have fun and don't forget to send some feedback, I haven't had much of this lately. :)