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TranscriptionDiane Dayton  This is changing the rules, a podcast about designing the life you want to live, hosted by KC Dempster and Ray Loewe the luckiest guy in the world.KC Dempster  Good morning, everybody. It's a beautiful day here in New Jersey. I'm KC Dempster. And here with me is Ray Loewe, the self proclaimed luckiest guy in the world, and we have a very interesting guest for you but I'm not going to spill the beans just yet. It's It's a gorgeous day we have no humidity, bright sunshine, blue sky. All is good. So we found that through our lives, people have always been giving us rules. First it was our parents then it was our teachers and maybe if we're belongs to a church, it's the church. And then as we get older, it's our employers and and, you know, the list keeps going. And the rules are probably instituted initially for a positive reason. They're meant to control us, but in a positive way. And they were meant to give us structure and guidance and to keep us safe. But over time, a lot of these rules lose their significance to us and they can actually become restrictive. So this podcast is designed to help us build our own set of rules, those that are important to us and work for us and we all need that. We need rules that are relevant to us. And when we change the rules to our rules, they we become free for you to be be ourselves. Good morning, Ray.Ray Loewe  Thank you, KC and I am really the real luckiest guy in the world this this, you know, self proclaimed stuff is for the birds. And and by the way, the weather report was wrong. It's going to rain later.KC Dempster  Are you trying to rain on my parade?Ray Loewe  And our guest is going to show us how it doesn't matter. So anyway, this whole thing about changing the rules is one of the major mindset part of a group of people that I call the luckiest people in the world. And, you know, I started studying the luckiest people in the world early in my adult life. And I've just continued year after year and, and and why and I think it's because secretly I want to become one of the luckiest people in the world. I like the way their life comes together. And these are the people that always seem to have it together. And they have this aura of luck about them. Now, to be clear, these are not the people that are winning the lottery necessarily. I mean, they're lucky too but but I don't think they have the same depth of luck that the people that we're talking about have, and people aren't born lucky. They have a series of mindsets that they learn. And I'd like to take a minute right now and define the luckiest people in the world as I see them. And they are those people that personally designed their own lives. They step in and take control of their own lives. And then they live their lives to the hilt. And they use this set of mindsets to do that. And changing the rules is one of the mindsets. We're going to talk about another one today, and there's a whole sequence of them and the luckiest guys, luckiest people in the world again, are not born lucky you they kind of learned as they go.So, um, let me uh, without introducing our guest, because I'm not allowed to do that yet. Right. Okay, sayKC Dempster  yes. Because we're following rules today.Ray Loewe  Yeah, we're following somewhat anyway. So we're going to talk today about a mindset that I think is extremely important. We've talked about it before, it's happiness. And, you know, I think most people in the world would rather be happy than not, I certainly would, uh, and I think I want to hang around with those people that are happy. I don't want to hang around with those people that are miserable all day. Long. But the luckiest people in the world have found a way they have a system kind of, and they've created the power to be happy for themselves. And that's what our guest is going to talk about. So I think what we need to do is to take a short break. And then when we come back, I will let you introduce our guest. And then I got a whole bunch of great questions about how to be happy, why it's important, what we want to do with it and all those good things.Diane Dayton  You're listening to changing the rules with KC Dempster and Ray Loewe the luckiest guy in the world. We will be right back with more exciting information.KC Dempster  Welcome back, everybody. We are right back and I have the pleasure of introducing gentlemen that made me laugh the minute he came on to this Skype call because he had a red nose on. I'm introducing you to john Freeman, who in his serious life is a financial advisor, but in his true life It's an even bigger red nose he is a professional clown. Welcome, john.John Freeman  Good morning. How are you guys doing? We're doing.Ray Loewe  We're much happier since you've been on the line. How's that?John Freeman  works that works. I'll pick it up.Ray Loewe  So I've known you for a long time. And let me relate an experience that I had with you A while ago to kind of set this off. JOHN and I were in a coaching group together and we've had these long drawn out sessions they took all day. And by the end of the day, you were pretty well wiped out and drained and any happiness it started at the end of the day was still kind of there, but it was kind of tucked away. And john came in during a break and he passed out a red nose to everybody in the group. And all I can say is when people came in, everybody put that nose on, and it changed the whole demeanor of the group. It was absolutely incredible how the group morphed, so So john, tell us a little bit about how you got involved in this clown stuff.John Freeman  During the getting ready for this, you asked me about being a professional clown, quite professional clown means I got paid once. I think it was about a buck or 50 cents. About 30 years ago, the church we were in, started a clown ministry for for kids, which my daughter got involved in, and I couldn't understand why they didn't open it up for adults, but they didn't. So about 15 years ago, I saw a flyer that talked about a free conference for people that are interested in magic or clowning or balloons for ventriloquism and face painting. And I said, Well, I've always kind of had an interest in clowning. So I went and I got hooked. So I've been doing it off and on. Sometimes pretty seriously, sometimes just occasionally 15 years.Ray Loewe  Okay, now, we cheated. We You went to one of our cocktail gatherings with a small group of people and you let it spill that there are actually what four different kinds of clowns? So tell us a little bit about this history and what went on and then and then we'll get into how you make people happy.John Freeman  The the main for those of you that don't like clowns usually don't like a white face clown. And I always blame it on Stephen King movies. But a white face clown is the top of the pyramid for clowning. And the exception of that is the ringmaster of a circus. He's technically a whie face clown but they're always not made up. But they're the boss. They do everything. white face clown as a clown, extremely popular Europe and Mexico. They're very elaborate. The white face clowns we see here United States mostly are like Bozo the Clown and the scary clowns of Stephen King, but they also can be like my daughter who is a little balloonist? That handed out balloons to kids and in white face. So literally everything in your face, your neck is on white. And today's world is a lot less makeup than what 15 or 20 years ago was. But they're they control. They're the bosses of the clown. Some of the ringmaster so you don't mess with a white white face could tease another white face but the other levels cannot because they're at the top of  the pyramid. The next level is called a auguste, which is August with an E stands and for fool. That's what most people relate to because this is Carol Burnett, the Red Skeltons most clowns are, they're tripping over their own feet because the big shoes or just because they're clumsy. And they're in bright clothing or unit clothing but they're they're just fun. And so a lot of people like being fun and being happy. So a lot of clowns are auguste that's really the bulk of it. Count them as the least expensive get into as the most fun because it used to be just nuts. The lower level consists of the hobos and the tramps, and tramps are normally quiet. A lot of times our minds think of Charlie Chaplin, who never said anything in costume. And hobos. The legacy of Red Skelton when he's doing what he had actually had seven different characters. The hobo and the tramp, basically, he has white around their eyes and whitet around their mouth. And that's because they started around in United States both of this around the depression time. And during the Depression, a lot of men rode the rails and if you want to get a rail car once you usually get into it right behind the coal train Which means you got coal all over your face so they wiped their eyes to see and their mouth to eat and so that's why the eyes are white in the mouth are white because the coal dust. then I have my personal costume and I have I am an auguste character called Huckleberry and then I have a hobo and I also have a tramp and a fourth character which I think is hilarious but kids don't like I have do a female character in a gray wig with pink curlers on top. And it came with a butt, and I usually use that as my boobs, and of course, they're always adjusting their boobs. So the kids don't get that. That look adults think its hilarious.KC Dempster  Yeah, so so would your female character be auguste or would she be a tramp or hobo?John Freeman  Auguste, okay. I could make into either character, but it wouldn't work as well. Because think of a worse house dress your mother or grandmother ever wore. That's what you want to see me in. Yeah, I actually have fishnet stockings and I have little brown yarn that can stick in there for long hair if I really want to be over the top.Ray Loewe  So, so which one is your favorite?John Freeman  I prefer I prefer the tramp. But I they have me mostly as as a hobo. And if I if I really if I'm doing a lot of kids stuff, I'll come into my neon tux. And I'm an auguste character, which is a very bright looking character the do a lot of that in Mexican churches because they like to bright colors. And so it attracts a lot of attention. And so that's their favorite my favorites just rather be in the in the sideline, so the hobos and tramps fit my clown character better but I don't get to play very often.Ray Loewe  Okay, now Is there a difference in mood when you put on a different costumes? I may not do anything inside you?.John Freeman  Yeah, it's a start off with the nose, the nose. This is just a red foam nose. And they come smaller, but this is a big one. And KC's just smiling great big right now and Ray's just looking at me like I'm  crazy. But I carry these with me. And Ray and I used to meet in Chicago. And a lot of times where in the airport, you're sitting around with people that are just not having fun. They're waiting and grumpy and I pulled out red noses. And in the kids would look at you and some would want some. Some parents would say are you really nuts, but the fun people really thought they were great. So I handed out lots of red noses at O'Hare airport Yeah, this is a professional red nose. You'll see it'ss and I'll see ya is big. Then you have a little smaller nose. That's right there. So a lot of noses nowadays are just covering little peak here. A lot of women will have that here. This is cute. But when people think a clown to think of a red nose, they go to the eyes and the mouth for the red nose is is a signature piece of the clown thing. I'll be by getting dressed up if I'm dressed up in the auguste character, which is the neon tux and just think of bright yellow greens, oranges, pinks. In a full tux vest on etc. You're just you're there you're gonna be happy because people say "Oh Wow! It's a clown!"  Next start talking costume being a tramp. The mood changes Because tramps are sad. So what's the different Ray? What's the difference between a hobo and the tramp? In the answer is a hobo never had money at the depression. A trap had money and lost it. So the tramp's are melancholy. And hobos are happy because they're just, they're out of work, but they were out of work or poor before.KC Dempster  So Emmett Kelly, he always looked sad, but he didn't he wear white face.John Freeman  No, he was he had a he had a great black beard. All right. And there's only one picture of him smiling in costume, and that's for his granddaughter. Ah, for bet he basically sued the newspaper for printing it. Hmm. But if you go into a into a museum that has a lot of old black and white clown stuff, they may have that picture.Ray Loewe  Okay, so so when you dress up first of all, how long does it take you to put on all this clown gear when you when you get moving?John Freeman  If you do full makeup, it's 40-45 minutes. I've had a good friend of mine the clowns a lot that he's an auguste and he's, he does everything blended. And he's literally working three, four days a week. It still takes him 40 minutes. Yeah, they take it takes 15-20 minutes, to get it off.Ray Loewe  So so if you're in a bad mood when you wake up in the morning, the concept of putting on full clown gear is not necessarily going to be what you want to do with the red nose work. So isn't thatJohn Freeman  To be honest, take that a little more seriously. I have done early morning gigs. And you don't want to get out of bed and shower. As soon as you start getting into it. Your mood changes because you know you're going to be this other character. So automatically you're in that character and one of the rules of clowndom  is once you're made up, you're in character 24/ seven. So like one time I went to an ice cream parlor after I worked. And I wanted to take my hat my wig off because like 95 degrees out, I couldn't, because you would break the rules of clowndom. And people just think it's strange. If you're partial, you have to be full. But you're driving down the street with your hat on and your makeup on and red nose, either people, some people, we've actually had some people that just don't get it. And the people that don't get it, Ray, are having a hard time being happy.Ray Loewe  Yeah, and to some of them, you actually transform some of them. Yeah, but you can't get all of them, right.John Freeman  No, no. And as you find that out, whenever you do a gig, you're looking for the people that want to want to enjoy the show and want to enjoy you want to have fun, and they will occasionally pull their buddies around. It's really really funny when you do a kids one And the other parents in the way back the room and they're drinking coffee or some other drink they're not supposed to drink in front of kids, and they're ignoring you, but all sudden, they start getting pulled in. And I've been at some shows that I've had people go out get their, their husband or their wife back in from the pool, come back in and see the show, because that's how much they enjoyed the change.Ray Loewe  So two quick things. Does it make you happy to make other people happy?John Freeman  Yes. Yes, very much. So.Ray Loewe  Okay, so part of the process is in making other people happy, you become happy. That's a win win. And the other thing is, I think I'm gonna let this out. The size of the smiles is directly proportional to theJohn Freeman  size of the note.This red nose here, brings on a great big smile on KC's face here. right here, which is just Just curious. I was okay. But it is not as much fun.Ray Loewe  So unfortunately john, we're at the end of our time over here, so we're gonna have to cut you off. But But thanks to john Freeman for being with us today and making us happy at least okay. And and john is very definitely one of the luckiest people in the world. I may have to put on his clown outfit to make it work, but whatever works, right, again, thanks. Thanks for being with us. And, KC, what do we have in store coming forward?KC Dempster  Well, I just want to remind everybody of what we said earlier, the luckiest people in the world aren't born lucky but they do live exciting and fulfilling lives. And it's because they make the commitment they they choose to be lucky. And it's not enough to make a one time commitment. You have to do it continually. It's it's a journey, and sometimes life events might derail you and we reach out with a rope of hope to them through our podcasts and some of the other things that we have to help them get out of that that Limbo of feeling unlucky. And so we love meeting new lucky people and sharing experiences and learning from the experts and adjusting their lives and Ray tell people how we help them to get lucky.Ray Loewe  We're just we're just going to scrap everything, you know, we're going to give out clown noses to everybody. I think after the show, I just think it's fascinating that you know, you can put on a nose it just changes your demeanor of the whole day. And, wow. Okay, so so john Freeman, one of the luckiest people in the world, again, has just figured out how to transform himself into happiness. And I think it's a really important lesson that we all need to have and we're going to get john he doesn't know that yet. But, but he's going to be at our our friends connection conference, the next time we do it. We're gonna hand out clown noses, and I have no idea what we're going to do, but it'll be a lot of fun. So, we'll see you guys next week, right?KC Dempster  Yes, join us for a great podcast when we're gonna have another one of the luckiest people in the world. So we'll see you then. Thank you for listeningDiane Dayton  to changing the rules, a podcast designed to help you live your life the way you want, and give you what you need to make it happen. Join us in two weeks for our next exciting topics on changing the rules with KC Dempster and Ray love the luckiest guy in the world. 

Bourbon and ham, is that a pairing you would expect? To be honest, neither did I. I’m a sucker for killing a plate of prosciutto at a dinner party, but thanks to our guest Steve Coomes, we’ve discovered a new love for country ham. When done right, the saltiness of the ham just hits all the right spots. We sit down with Steve as he talks to us about a past life as a pizza judge (yes, a pizza judge!) and then we get into hams. The diet of the pigs, curing processes, and even his professional opinion of those ham legs you see hanging inside rickhouses. I think it will surprise you. Of course, it wouldn’t be complete if we didn’t do a bourbon and ham pairing. Try not to salivate too much. Show Partners: You can now buy Barrell Craft Spirits products online and have them shipped right to your door. Visit BarrellBourbon.com and click Buy Now. Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Whiskey From Home: WhiskeyFromHome.com Show Notes: Bourbon in a Decanter: Does is go bad? https://advancedmixology.com/blogs/art-of-mixology/does-bourbon-go-bad-in-decanter This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about Derby. How did you get into spirits writing? Tell us about your bourbon and ham parings. Talk about your culinary background. How do you judge a pizza? Tell us about the hams you brought today. How do you come up with the pairings? Are the pigs fed a specific diet? What is the difference in the thickness of country ham and prosciutto. Tell us about curing. What sizes do hams come in? What flavors are you looking for when pairing? How much does this ham cost? Where can you buy country ham? What do you think about hams aging in rickhouses? 0:00 That country ham industry is its own worst enemy, many times and understanding what it needs to do to make itself look on par with Italian cured hams. Yeah. My wife it's charcuterie. She's like, Oh 0:11 yeah, you say it's like oh no, no way. It's like 0:28 Welcome to Episode 251 of bourbon pursuit. I hope you all are hanging in there with your quarantine here, because I know right now, mine's looking pretty Shaggy. I'm due for a haircut. But before I get to the news, I want to tell you once again about whiskey from home with the help of some of the best names in bourbon. We're doing a five and a half hour livestream of whiskey soap entertainment on May 2, starting at 12pm Eastern. So right now go to whiskey from home calm and get your free ticket there sessions on bourbon history. The best Bourbons on the shelf right now. Blind flights how to hunt for great bourbon, a virtual food pairing with Peggy no Stevens and a virtual bourbon tasting with our good friend, Fred MiniK. The shopping list for everything that you need to follow along. Is it whiskey from home calm, so go there. Check it out. It's a free event. So come and spend your Saturday afternoon with us. Now, bourbon into decanter doesn't go bad. This is a question that was asked and answered with extensive research from advanced mixology calm. After you buy a bottle of bourbon, how should it be stored? does it stay preserved for years or even decades have left on open? What about the canning of bourbon? Can it go bad then? Well, it all comes down to aeration, and without giving too much of it away. You can read all the answers to these questions to the link from advanced mixologist calm in our show notes. For today's podcast, we talked about bourbon and ham. Is that a pairing that you would expect? Well, to be honest, neither did I I'm a sucker for killing a whole plate of for shoot, I was at a dinner party. But thanks to our guest, Steve Coombs, I found a new love for country ham. When done, right, the saltiness of the ham, it just hits all the right spots. We sit down with Steve, as he talks about his past life as a pizza judge, you heard that right up pizza judge, I mean, talk about a dream job. But then we get into hands, the die to the pigs, curing processes, and even his professional opinion of those hand legs that you see hanging inside of Rick houses. I think it's gonna surprise you. Of course, it wouldn't be complete if we didn't do a bourbon and hand pairing. So try not to salivate too much. All right, don't forget it whiskey from home calm, go register and get your free ticket. If you haven't had a chance yet, go to barrel bourbon.com and you can get cash drink bourbon, whiskey, rye and rum. All delivered direct to your door. Just look for the Buy Now button at the top of the page. All right. Now here we go. Yo, here's Fred minich with above the char. 3:04 I'm Fred MiniK. And this is above the char. I'm a little sad right now. I'm actually really, really sad. We've had to cancel bourbon and beyond. I think many of you all know that. But that's the festival that I co created with Danny Wimmer presents and COVID is forcing a lot of cancellations, especially in the music world. What's gonna happen to the Kentucky Derby? No one really knows. But this Saturday would have been my 13 Kentucky Derby in a row to attend. And I'm just sad because that piece of that that moment is gone. It that it's gone. That piece of culture, that piece of celebration. And it's not necessarily about the horses. It's about the gathering of the people the smoking of cigars, a sipping a bourbon, seeing my wife go through, you know, 15 thousand different hats before she chooses one. So many great moments I've had over the years. I want to share one with you. Now, if you followed me you know that I've, I was a guest of the governor last year and I've been a millionaire's row and I've been around the celebrities and all that. And a lot of people be like, that would be that would be the one that would be like the one memory that you would want to take away when you think about your experiences as the from the derby. I've also been a photographer on the derby. I was on the finishing line in 2008 and got some really beautiful photos of a Belle's before she passed away. And yet, that's not it either. Now, my favorite Derby of all time, was when I was in Peggy know Stephens box with with my wife. We were just pregnant. We're just getting out of that first trimester where we could start telling people you know how it is if you've been pregnant? Well, I've never been pregnant. My wife spent pregnant but I say we as in like, you know, family, and you get out of that first trimester and you're so excited to tell people and we're Catholic. So that first step is always like, Alright, who are going to be the godparents? So it was on Derby Day, like, two, three years ago, that we were in Peggy's box and we asked Peggy, if she would be the godmother to our son, Julian. And she cried, said yes, of course. And it was just a magical moment. It was a wonderful celebration. And then I think I lost a couple hundred bucks on the race. But there's no replace in the derby. We can't replace that. That's just a magical, magical moment. If you've ever been, you know what I'm talking about, but we're doing something that is as good as we possibly can present right now. And that's whiskey from home. It is an amazing lineup of bourbon personalities. And I hope you will join us all day Saturday. As we drink bourbon as we talk bourbon, we're going to be streaming across the interwebs. Unlike any time before, this is the first, this is the first time my knowledge that we've ever seen something like this a virtual conference in the bourbon world. And my hat's off to Kenny Coleman. He's just done such a good job, you know, stepping up and getting this thing going. On the back end. I'm trying to get all the streaming stuff set up. And Ryan's going to be making cocktails and you know what, I'm going to try and make them alongside him. So I cannot wait to see how this goes for everybody. And I hope you will join us. It's this Saturday. I'm sure Kenny's already talked about it, and you're going to hear more about it later on. But it's going to be a great time is it going to replace the derby? Nothing can replace that in our hearts. But what it can do is it can help us get us through the fact that we are missing missing the greatest two minutes in sports. So that's this week's above the char. This one came from the heart. If you have a heartfelt story about the Kentucky Derby, hit me up on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, or go to my website Fred medic comm and send me an email. I like reading those kinds of stories. Until next week, cheers 7:23 Welcome back to another episode of bourbon pursuit the official podcast of bourbon, the whole team here today we've got bourbon and we've got ham where we talking pigs and bourbon today so this is this is something that I know Ryan and myself we're big barbecue guys, we got our green eggs, you've got your drum, you've got all kinds of things so terrible, but yes, it's a better omen. Yeah. And you know, for me, I love I love charcuterie boards when I go out to restaurants to can't get enough a ham. And I mean you remember we were talking about going to North Carolina you're talking about the gym. Oh, and ham. Is that what it is? Yep. 7:56 Yeah, the Serrano Hamza Oh, the ham on Hello. Yeah. 8:00 hormone 8:00 that's a source that's your jam on or GMO yeah 8:03 Jay Michael Jackson working there. 8:04 It's the jam the jam and ham. cured meats are like you're talking about love language and I used to raise pigs I used to raise pigs so like this is like ham to me is like it's what I grew up with. We used to raise do rocks and Berkshires and everything's kidding 8:21 yeah I had my Linux I knew you're in the hug business you ever notice had their day their pig in the mud? Did everyone pay the pig you know in the mud? 8:28 Yeah, we made them yeah, we literally like I'd had to clean them all the time because they would get it get really bad and we had some we did have some some hampshire's as well. I had like, like one of these really nice prized hampshire's, and the damn thing died when it touched concrete like it was it was a carrier of what they call a stress gene. And one of my big contributions to the hog community is that I donated him to science instead of eating him 9:00 After he died, you get a tax write off for that or something. I 9:04 don't you know what I think we did, but if they actually they've cured they've bred most of that out there. 9:09 Yeah. And you can't eat them unless you cause its death. Right? If it does that on its own, you gotta 9:15 take there's any rules on 9:19 that to show up live to the budget, 9:22 whatever it sounds delicious. So if 9:24 you hit by a car, I think that seeing well we don't want to know how the sausage made, you know, no pun intended. 9:29 Who knows we might get back into that action today and kind of talking about cured meats as well as we go through here. But you've already heard our guests today. So today is our guests. We've got Steve Coombs. Steve is all over the place. He knows about pigs. He knows about bourbon. He's been a writer for bourbon Plus, he's also an author. He's been a contributing writer for bourbon and banter. So Steve, welcome to the show. 9:49 Thanks for having me. Glad to be here. 9:50 Yeah, so I mean, we kind of talked a little bit there but let's let's kind of talk about some of your your bourbon cred. You know, how did how did you get into actually start writing and kind of Knowing and exploring the spirits world, 10:02 I always call this the confession moment in that I was probably 4748. before somebody got she was the tourism director in Bardstown. And I was down there doing a story for Southern Living magazine, y'all remember Don crystal? Oh, yeah, Don, Don said, we pulled up to heaven Hill. She said, Steve Coombs, you get out of this car right now go inside and do that tasting said you're not going to do an article on my town without tasting some bourbon and believe it or not honest truth, it really clicked that day. It was funny that 92 proof larceny lit my mouth on fire to the point of numbness. And I mean, and now we're drinking barrels, barrel strength, dry, you know, it's no big deal. So I got hooked on it literally just because of the culture. And of course, watching Fred, Fred and I worked many years ago together and seeing what it did for his career and becoming attracted to the characters in the business. My gosh, I mean, I've written about the culinary business for 30 years and never had Have I found such a concentration of friendly characters in one single business? And you especially talking about how rough it was in the wine industry, you know how snobs were in that like you didn't want any more involvement with that the low ego part of this businesses just you know gold for writers don't think yeah, 11:15 I mean the the characters are amazing. I remember that time in your career you You called me I've really how did you get here? How did you do that and all that and I and it for me, this has always been easy because of the of the people and at the time, you were like thinking about, you know, teetering with tequila a little bit. Remember I was and I still love it. But it's a whole country away. 11:38 And here we live in the country of bourbon country, and it's right here and you can drive to barks down to 15 minutes and be interviewing the geniuses in the business or Frankfurt or, you know, Larkspur, 11:49 one of the great things that you've done is that a lot of people come into, into in bourbon and they just, they kind of repeat the same stories. You know, not a lot Have people you know, try to go outside of what's already been done. And you've kind of you've done that. And I've been telling you for a long time that people want to be, you know, learn more about ham and the pairings of it and now you're doing seminars on it and everything. So how did that how did that start? How did you develop this whole new platform that really no one's explored Really? And this ties back to you? Hopefully you remember the answer to this gotta stop this kiss fest over Yeah, 12:27 it is. Yeah, all right 12:30 later, but let me let me say this. he mentored me 15 years ago when we really started he was your supervisor. He said your light just like today? No, I'm kidding. 12:40 I'm totally kidding. 12:41 I was always on time. You were I told him that the company didn't really tolerate that crap and you still ended up military and you just show up on time? 12:47 Yeah, that was that was back when I was still falling a little bit my military code now I'm 10 minutes late to everything cuz I just don't care. Fred. Fred 12:54 called me in July of what was it? 2014. You said that a publisher called Do about doing a book on country ham? That's right. And you said I don't know anything about the subject but I have a feeling I know someone who does. And he called me and he said call the publisher and see if this will work out for you. And I wound up writing that was my is my It was my first book country ham, a southern tradition of hogs salt in smoke, which came out the year after that. And so by then I'd already begun enjoying bourbon and I'm tasting it just like we're gonna taste today. It was late night it was it Believe it or not, sounds so fake, but it's really true is midnight, I was editing the book and sipping it and tasting it with this. Oh my gosh, this works really well together. 13:39 Yeah, it's a match made in heaven. 13:41 Oh, exactly. In and that's really where it kind of clicked. But Jay Denham, who is one of the great cures and Kentucky who's moved back to Cincinnati, had come to me, we're friends. We're talking ham and he said, you know, we should do a big whiskey and hand pairing some time and somehow or another led to the bourbon classic. And we did One with have not had been hell I'm sorry Jim Beam. And it was a hit from then. And ever since I've been doing a lot of these tastings My gosh, we've got six books already this year through March out of town. And it's a lot of fun to spread the gospel of both I mean, pork gets a bad name the United States and this is this is really good stuff that we don't try today. The other other white man and he is really really read me forgot that tagline. Yeah, so horrible. I kinda want to rewind it back to you even a little bit more here. So kind of talk because you were you were a chef previously in your life too, right to kind of talk more about your culinary background. So I my mother was a good Southern cook but never did understand restaurant food until I had to start paying my tuition at St x and my parents said you know, times are a little tight you boys need to get some better jobs if you're gonna keep going to say next pay for it. So I start working and fine dining. And it was the restaurant that really gave Louisville its own restaurant boom was called Casa goes on. It's long since gone. But that was the first place that I tasted really, really good fresh fish, real asparagus, Hollandaise, all these kinds of things. And I realized that was wired for the culinary industry. didn't know what I wanted to do when I graduated college and was stuck watching the chef's and thought that looks interesting. I'll try that. I wanted to be a writer. I've always wanted to be a writer, but I was an absolute terrible manual typewriter typist, mine was the last class at St x in 1982 that use true manual typewriters. And the best I ever did was 32 words a minute. And that wasn't gonna fly at a newspaper. About five or so years later, I got a laptop. It was an IT WAS AN NTC multi sink if anybody remembers it, you guys are toddlers 15:43 weighed 11 and a half 15:44 pounds when that one had like a real floppy like the five and a 15:48 half inch floppy? No, not that 123 and a half no hard drive. And that was the first time that I ever discovered that word processing allows you to correct your mistakes and like well maybe I can do this thing after all. And then so I started writing about the rest Strong industry that was 1991 I still do it not nearly as much because of, you know, publications like yours and, and I'm really digging the spirit scene but to be in it this long and have gotten to travel to really neat places in the world, just writing about food has been a treat and I'm in a food town. So it's been a good career. I let me let me add something to this. He was the editor in chief of pizza today. And then he later was the editor, editor of a website called pizza marketplace. And Steve was a god in pizza around the world. And if you think about pizza, it's like its own sounds delicious. Anyway. 16:44 Steve likes too skinny to be like, doing all this food cookies, but 16:47 he would he would write about these like pizza dough throwing contests and it'd be like Italy versus United States or Canada and that was going on when you're there, man. And it's just it was just it was fun. For me from a career perspective, that was the first time I had ever seen anyone cover a beat very uniquely, and that I've never told you this, but the way that you own pizza gave me a lot of like motivation, you know, to, you know, to discover, you know, in that or in the early times in my career to find what I could like your neck hat, find my niche like you did. And like, he was a god and pizza. If you Google Steve Coombs, you know, we put the quotation marks around it, and then pizza, you'll find a lot of his old stuff and it's beautiful. I kind of want to talk about both. I know 17:41 I kind of talk about pizza just for a second. So kind of talk about like, how do you judge a pizza like in your mind when you were going into judge a pizza like what how does that how does that work? 17:50 there? It's It's the last contest that I did for a long time was in Columbus, that client I was telling you about that I had been up there was the North Custom was a minute American pizza contest can't recall but we judge it on crest quality Christmas. You would look at what you know the rim of the crest which at the time is called the corny God or the cornice. And you'd look for the texture of the dough. You judge it on the the flavor of the sauce how it presents itself well with cheese you don't want to slide off. That's a problem. He looked at the ratio of toppings with sauce and crust. And when you look at the marketability of it is this thing really something that would sell in a in a pizza restaurant or do the guy just make it up on his way in and then do you do thumbs up sideways? Thumbs thumbs down? There wasn't there was there were 38 judges in this contest to manage you know, the volume of pizzas that were coming through. So you really did have to have a rigorous pizza quickies now it's a bookies. Yeah, we could Yeah, yeah. So it was it was pretty rigorous judging, and I'd seen a similar system in Italian I'm sorry in Italy, but uh, it's basically based on what you know, making the Italians win. What's their system What style do you prefer? Like? 19:03 Okay, I really do. 19:04 Yeah, me Neapolitan, New York. Go neck and neck. Yeah. And I like that salt mine like a Pete not pizza. Taco foldable floppy. 19:11 Yeah, there seems to be a trend right now of people bashing Chicago style pizza saying it's not really pizza. It's just like a big like a lasagna. Yeah, it's 19:20 Are you in that? Are you No, not at all. That that's it's a derivative of an Italian version of pizza called torta pasqual Lena which means Easter tart or torte. And it was basically you know, the deep dish and they would put another layer of crust over the top and it was it was like kind of like we will roll out a big lasagna for celebratory event. And and that's the way it was treated. It wasn't the Italians don't see pizza as a slice after slice thing. Like we eat it here. I mean, we're committed. These dudes have had an appetizer, some wine, the little bit of pizza, then, you know something afterward. We look at Pizza as a whole meal sometimes our meal. Yeah, no. So 20:01 kind of goes back to that old saying like, any pizza can be a personal pain if you want to try harder. Yeah. 20:06 Yeah, yeah. So 20:09 they would look at that at a pizza that size and say, Man, that's for 10 people. 12 people, you know, and we look at it sometimes they will you get two friends. Yeah. 20:22 All right pizza pursuit come to you in 2021 Yep. All right. So let's let's kind of head and kind of dive in here with with what we have in front of us. So kind of Tell me Tell us a little bit about like what you brought today and variations and why you chose this. 20:34 So we have a couple of hams before us today. And I like to focus on people who use the very breeds that Fred was talking about having raised years ago. Heritage breed hogs because the quality of the meat is higher. The fat is much more present. It's better marbled, there's a better cap like this area here is called and you get a much better balance of flavor and texture. encoding a lot of the things that we talked about with bourbon but only presented in a solid form. I also when I did the book several years ago, I really got to taste a lot of country ham and these specific cures are the one that I ones that I really like to use in presentations. I have found that their meat tastes best with whiskey out of you know many others, partly because of the fat partly because of the complexity that's gained in aging just like bourbon. 21:26 Yeah, I was about to ask like how what what the rigorous process of testing all that was like to be able to figure out exactly what would pair well 21:33 and what no more rigorous and you guys sitting at the bar, just tasting lots of different things and lugging it somewhere in your memory or Notepad. It's just tasting and tasting, tasting and tasting and think it through. It takes it again like bourbon, a little goes a long way you don't need a ton of country hand three ounces, a country hand would give you your full RTA dose of salt, so you don't need much of it. But I've really gotten to where I'm very fond of this first hand nearest us is from the hammer it in Murfreesboro, Tennessee. This is a guy who his name is Bob woods and he's the one that coined my favorite phrase that he used in presentations and he said, Steve, country ham Ain't nothing but hillbilly prosciutto that's what it is. A traditional ham is cured basalt only a country ham is cured with salt and sugar and various other peppers if you like but that's basically the difference 22:26 now these particular pigs you talked about that are worth or they spent a specific diet or they just like you know, in Italy I've seen you know, the swine are fed like a corns only and like massage Do you know? sure that's the procedure department hawks, but they do like to let him get out and free range and did you guys or did you have to keep them in pens or it varied? 22:49 You know, there were some breeds that we would like kind of roam Chester hogs were ones that we would let roam around. You could kind of trust them and they were diggers. They route the hell out They were real readers. 23:02 Very what's rude or mean? Guys? You gotta understand. 23:05 They stay with their nose. I'm gonna say slay 23:07 their noses into the ground to get at grubs and such. Right, 23:09 right. Yeah. So they and they also like to get a nice cool spot to get underneath there. the Berkshires were runners. And so like, if you let them out, there's a pretty good chance that coyote would get it, you know, because they would go out in the woods or something. And they do rocks for really, they were just kind of lazy. They didn't really want to do anything. So even if you open the pin up, they'd be like, yeah, there's a lot out there and I got this water bucket. We're good. 23:35 I love the accent do rocks. Because here in Kentucky me Derek now. Yeah, same spelling, 23:41 just like him. Oh, and and Jim. Oh, well. 23:44 What's fascinating about that is that we would buy hogs from all over the all over the country. You know, because we were competitive. We were showman we were competitive, you know, trying to win jackpot hog shows and stuff. And you go to you we'd go to Illinois, which Illinois had like For a long time, they had like the best genetics for hampshire's and everybody was trying to get a little bit of Hampshire in their in their breeding processes. And they would you would go there you couldn't even understand and they'd say hag, you know, the different enunciations of the breeds? It's fascinating you can it's one of the few kind of light words where you can tell where someone's from, based on how they pronounce breeds. Yeah. And if you look at all they're all most of the of the breeds come from like some kind of European You 24:33 know, when did when you said free range so like, I'm trying to think like a, you know, a cow, like if you have grass fed beef or versus like corn fed corn fed, like much more fatter, like, more flavorful for me anyways, whereas you get grass fed, it's kind of more grainy, kind of earthy kind of flavors, is that do they do the similar things with pigs or? 24:52 Absolutely, I mean, you can you can tell the difference and it just tastes this against some neutral pork sometimes if you cured it, and you do. If we didn't have that diet to begin with, it's not going to influence the meat 25:05 in a thing to that they do with with all animals in, it's very prevalent amongst swine is that they actively add antibiotics because these things are always getting sick. You know, if one of them gets, you know, some kind of flu or some kind of cold, it could wipe out an entire herd or a farrowing house, which has all the piglets in it and you you lose your entire investment so that a lot of these farmers will actively add antibiotics into the feed. And so like when when you hear someone talking about free gain free range or natural or a lot of that means is that they're getting a feed that is not as you know, doped up if you will, and also like they're able to see 25:52 the mo corn thing for you know, hang their hat on that you know, but does it make a difference in the you know, antibiotics versus not any biotics with the meat flavor. 26:01 I've never heard anybody yeah say whether it just always I think it's a no better than I sure 26:07 I think a lot of that also too when you look at this a lot of like ham and sausages is about the processing. So very few people are actually are actually just getting the you know, getting the getting the meat from the hog, you know slicing it and cooking two of them, you know the same way everyone's doing a sauce or they're doing a special cure. It's very it's not like before you can cut you get two steaks, slap it on there, cook it up, and you can tell you know, it's very it's very different with this because much of the art is in the curing and I'm fascinated to me. I'm very fascinated with the art of curing because we go into warehouses and Kentucky, you know, bourbon warehouses like will it and you can see these little, you know, hams just kind of in the rafters. We won't talk about that. 27:00 Alright, we'll see you later. So 27:01 yeah, I want to talk about Yeah, no, I have my opinion on that. 27:05 Well, let's go ahead we'll come back Let's taste I don't know let's let's definitely taste I kind of want you to kind of talk us through, you know what, what we have and like what we're pairing it with. We already talked about what we what we have and then we went on, despite what your brothers 27:16 told you. So what are we left or so let's go with the front one, the one closest to you. This is from the hammer. This is an 18 to 20 month old hand it's called a tin Shuto. So I'm like Fred. I like to hold it up. I like to see the marbling in it. Oh wow, I've never done a efficient Oh wow. 27:33 Can you imagine being do i mean i don't know if I've ever gone to a restaurant and then like I never seen anyone, 27:38 anybody. I don't do that in a restaurant. They bring a light to this and make me a flashlight. 27:42 That smell I mean, I guess like I'm not using 27:44 this particular ham has huge Parmesan cheese note to me, but it also has that very Porky note that barnyard note that I love Parmesan cheese is definitely there on Yeah, for sure. And it's like to lay it right on my tongue. 27:56 I've also I don't think I've ever gone through and like tried to I mean, dude, I'm assuming since you do this and you judge you try to do the palate tasting and trainings like it's the same way you do with a bourbon you're sitting there you're looking at the color you're looking and you're actually smelling it you're nosing it the same way you would do with a whiskey or something like that. 28:12 Believe it or not the way they judge ham contests you don't see the internal part of the ham it's never cut to look at it is in Italy they typically use a horse's cannon bone and they kind of sharpen it down to a point in they stick it into the near the H bone of the ham to see if the thing is properly cured because you know instantly about that aroma that comes out a stick it in the stick through their nose and say yea or nay. And that's one of the criteria for judging here in Kentucky is is that thing properly cured and so you put it in a couple of parts of it the Beavis and Butthead joke in the butt face of the ham. And so they're checking on aroma. They're checking on appearance, how it's trimmed. Typically a country ham is smoked so that The way that is colored is important they don't want they don't want to just super mahogany like Western Kentucky cares will do that sometimes it's not 29:09 a favorable the typical to use mahogany wood for no or they use all different okay oak is really common 29:15 I'm sorry hickory Hickory, Hickory. Okay. So yeah but it's much more superficial than you would think they'll probably palpate it you know smash around some but it's not nearly as intense as you might think. But taste that with the toasted which is on the left you know it's gonna love This is Lauren when she added this guy's like smacking our lips we're gonna do and 29:36 she's always never do that. 29:39 I sound effects 29:40 is if this didn't have enough brown sugar on its own. It's really bumps it up. Andrea Wilson at makers not talk about when we do these pairings we want to compliment, contrast or elevate when we make a pairing. Compliment means they go well together. Contrast means they make each other interesting. Elevate means each makes the other better. And I think this is a 30:05 pairing appearing that elevates so why go with the the toasted on this one? What was the? What was the significance behind that one just 30:13 it's a simple approachable whiskey. I mean, it's it Who doesn't like toasted? It's not my favorite of the mixtures line but I really really like it. And it just pairs well with food. I've paired with a lot of foods and you think you guys can jump in on this with me, but for some reason, their line the mixtures line pairs better than any and I'm thinking that there are two things that are noticeably different from everything else we've done. And that's low barrier entry proof and low proof in the bottle. And for some reason that seems to result in a really good pairing food. I don't know if you've ever thought that through But 30:51 no, I mean, I guess with alcohol overpower. Yeah, I would say that's probably 30:56 but I think everyone's different to you know, some people have you know, burned their power. What's out they need that barrel proof all the time. I wanted to ask you a question about about like the the the the sliced country ham always feels sticker to me then prosciutto and I when I was in I was in Italy and I was at a price Judo place and they had me go up go behind and cut they they let me cut and I used actually did the bone and when I cut they were like you're too thick Get out of here. So it wasn't that thick it was like this but so why why what's the difference between like you know the standards of the thickness? 31:40 What do you get if you mix Seattle craft, Texas heritage and Scottish know how that's to bar spirits to our spirits traces its roots to a ranch in rural Texas run by the founder, Nathan Kaiser his family for six generations. Nathan grew up on the ranch was stories of relatives bootlegging moonshine, and after moving into Seattle, he wanted to keep the family Traditional life any opened to bar spirits in 2012. They're very traditional distillery making everything from scratch and each day starts by milling 1000 pounds of grain. Their entire product lineup consists of only two whiskies, their moonshine, and the only bourbon made in Seattle. Both bottles are being featured in rack house whiskey clubs. Next box. rack house whiskey club is a whiskey the Month Club, and they're on a mission to uncover the best flavors and stories that craft distilleries across the US have to offer racquel ships out to have the feature distilleries finest bottles, along with some cool merchandise in a box delivered to your door every two months. Go to rack house whiskey club.com to check it out and try some two bar for yourself. Use code pursuit for $25 off your first box. 32:49 What's the difference between like, you know the standards of the thickness In contrast, I think it's a great question 32:57 in the United States and certainly in the south. In United States where country ham is most prevalent people don't eat it and people I say eat it raw No not yet rots cured it is chemically and physically transformed into a shelf stable product so it's cured it's not raw it My mother was one of many who just abused ham country ham and would cook it to you probably had it Ryan in Barcelona baseball leather consistency and intensify the salt it was just overwhelming absolutely no fun but when I did this book I can't tell you how many people how many cures did not like it like this. They they thought that this is kind of like it with a little red add gravy or whatever and like this is the best expression Yeah, this is the barrel proof barrel strength expression of their product 33:50 or essentially throw it in a sandwich with tomato and you know let us in pickles. 33:54 Well done like well yeah done like that. I've enjoyed it too. It Nancy nuisance place I think I posted a photo A couple days ago of it but yeah Fred This is the shark eatery cut that really shows to me respects the the product and its natural best and did you cut it with I not like you're talking about like off the the hammer itself I'd still be doing it to try to get these things done you got to be an expert or an expert to do that I can do it but I'm slow I have a commercial slicer in my house. Oh 34:24 nice and then I know what I'm getting at Costco next commercials 34:29 I'll help you find one on the on the US market will be a lot better go where one out with a ham 34:33 I got a question after you cut yes or no because it's cured do you have to do anything to like seal it to preserve it or how do you preserve it after you've already cut into it? 34:42 Well, before we started you probably saw me taking it out of those vacuum packages that just do that but 34:47 oh you and I'm talking about the actual whole ham. What do you do with that after? 34:52 I like to break it down into as large sections of muscle as I can both to make it easier to slice But to do is you say get it into a vacuum package and and seal it that way so that the more muscle integrity you have the better it's going to be preserved I can keep them in a refrigerator or a freezer for a long long period of time and they're fine 35:13 What size do these typically come in when say you want to go buy like a hammer 35:17 so a country ham depending on the maker or the cure, I should say starts out at about 20 to 23 pounds green weight is Joe recall that to green that seems to be industry and industry time. And what's that? What's that mean though? It means fresh. Yeah, fresh 35:35 jiggling way so it's basically like trying to buy like an eight ounce filet or an eight ounce steak and then you cook it and then it 35:40 but that's been that's probably been dry aged for a little while so that this this thing was only King you know, 48 hours ago. 35:46 All right then. So remember my role and stray from butter dogs. It was just it was raising them. Put them on a truck and say goodbye. Give me the check. Yeah, once they were done, I was don't name them. I did name a couple of 35:59 yeah But But yeah, they'll they'll shrink to about if they start out at 22. There'll be ready it, you know, at about a year at 17 pounds so they lose. That's their Angel share, you know them losing that moisture to intensify the flavors that are inside the ham and to trigger I'm trying to think of the garden it's an enzymatic reaction that that really makes the meat shelf stable. All that works together and it works together because the place we live just like bourbon is so good here because of our climate. The same thing happens to hams that you know that once you hang them outside and let them be subject to the weather. It's amazing. Now there's not that many places in the world that you can do this. 36:44 Well I've never I've always wanted to get into like curing my own ham or something like that. Because I know a few people and a few different bourbon groups and that's like one of their kind of like side projects or side hobbies assisting 36:55 at 89 guy yeah, he's got some good ones going 36:58 yeah. So with the One 37:00 of those in my refrigerator home All right, 37:02 perfect. So I mean, so talk, I mean, because I don't even know like, even the process of how you would even start doing that, hey, you'd have to require the leg, but be like, what, what's that? What's the next step in that process? 37:13 It's it's pretty crude, frankly, it's, you trim the trim away certain parts of the hand to make it look good. And you rub the hell out of it with carrying salt. You know, I mean, you're sticking in every little nook and cranny because you want to get that salt in there to penetrate to the bone and push the way with and push the water out essentially. As cures would say it's a race to the bone if if, if bacteria gets to the bone of the hand first, you've lost your ham if if salt gets there first you've got a cured ham. And what it does, basically is created by getting the water out it starves the bacteria, that's what they need to thrive. And that's all the salt does is pushes it out. And of course flavors it very deal 37:58 to I just did the second premise. I'm sorry I jumped ahead 38:01 I couldn't I did it too oh my god it's perfect oh my god i mean it was it was funny like going into this you know I have a I have a little bit of I don't want to say a criticism but I have a little bit of that that kind of I hold back a little bit be like oh can you really pair like ham and bourbon together holy shit yeah you can 38:20 say that's so fun about this is to see that happen and people you know the scales fall from their eyes they go really 38:27 you can do this well I mean it's in I think it kind of just gives you a little bit more you know a benefit to hear to say like okay, you were able to show me like for me to sit there and say like, I don't even know where I would go and find a different kinds of handy and start experimenting with around here. But if I did, and I came down here my basement I started pulling, you know, Jefferson's reserve, I started pulling Booker's I pulled you know, whatever, you name it across the line and tried to figure out like, how did these pair I don't really know if I'd be able to do that. So I guess when you're doing this, what are some of those new wants his or flavors in a ham or a bourbon that you're trying to pair with a particular Wang Kenny. I wish I could French it up and give you some fascinating answer. But it is mostly trial and error. But But the key 39:14 attribute that I want from the ham to actually from a country ham is fat content to coat the palette and smoke a little bit of smoke in there. Salt is everywhere it doesn't matter the to AI know how to cut the the hand correctly so choose correctly. So really it's it's fat. And one of the virtues of a whiskey that pairs well is that it cleanses the palate. Yeah, and and this this so what we tasted here just a second ago that Fred and Kenny cheated on wisely. was a 24 month old Broadbent country ham. Yeah, broadband done from a Berkshire hog. Yeah, Burke charade. Yeah. And it's just as there's no app That's it. This is one the the the company's won the Kentucky State Fair country ham championship 18 times out of 53 or so. Transcribed by https://otter.ai

The Wealth of Nations by Adam Smith.Send us feedback at MetagnosisPodcast@gmail.com. [Transcript by Bob, our AWS robot secretary][0:00:13] Yuta: Okay, So this week, we read beginning of Adam Smith's The Wealth of Nations. And we only read about 5 to 7 chapters. But I found this personally. Very, I thought it was great. I was very entertained. And I think I learned a lot even though it's very old and its at the beginning of a long tradition of economics. But I thought it held up. Really well,[0:00:48] Henry: do you remember what year it was[0:00:51] Yuta: 1776? OK, it's just kind of crazy. Yeah, it's the year of the Declaration of Independence, and I think it's the year  critique of pure reason came out. So, oh, around that time? Around that time, I think. I might be thinking of a different book but it's around that. Came out right after, anyways, yeah. So I thought we would talk about the 1st two parts of what we read, which I would divide into basically an explanation of how markets and specialization work and how that creates wealth and the second part is going to be about what money is and, how labour on wealth relates to money or commodities.[0:02:00] Henry: it's kind of about how value works in the market, right?[0:02:03] Yuta: Yeah. Yeah. So, first, just to summarize it really quickly. I think it was basically, you know, we just talked about intro economics classes, but it was basically what you would get in an intro economics class. Now I think I was really surprised by how modern it was, and the writing was also, like, very readable. I really appreciated that. It's kind of rare for something, so old, but yes. So it explained that, you know. Okay, so one example I really liked was that in, like, poor tribes, basically, everyone is employed in a way because everybody is useful. Everybody has a way where they can contribute. But in wealthier countries, a lot of people are totally unemployed. And a lot of people who don't work at all like consumed 10 times more than people that work a lot. so it kind of it's kind of a weird situation, but yeah, it works out that way because of, he says specialization. I guess there's a lot of ways to go at this. But this is one way. With specialization, someone can focus on one task and get very good at that. And then through the chain of production, you can focus on your own task and create basically much more than, you would be able to on your own. So he has very concrete examples, which I really appreciated. His biggest example was with pins where he says, he actually described really in detail, the production of pins and it kind of surprised me. It's kind of, you know, trivial in a way. But I know it was told in a compelling way. and yeah, he very convincingly shows how factories can be so much more productive than a single person. I think in his example of something like 200 times or something on that massive scale[0:04:28] Henry: and even at that time before we have, you know, factories that we think of today assembly lines and things like that.[0:04:36] Yuta: yeah, not even talking about robots. They're competing. I think this is just people laboring but organizing that in different ways, not having massive returns,[0:04:50] Henry: and I think that just to recognize a point you made. It's a common theme throughout the book that he brings up lots of concrete examples of each of the concepts that he talks about. And if you are familiar with the idea, then it's sort of a little bit redundant. But it's super useful for learning and getting to know exactly what he's talking about.[0:05:13] Yuta: Yeah, so, yeah, I was going to bring up it reminds me it was very redundant to me. I felt like and also, I think, to a lot of people, like for someone who I mean, I think intro economics classes kind of are pretty redundant for a lot of people. I mean, if you read the newspaper and you kind of understand how trade works, things like that, it's not a lot of new concepts, but yeah, I guess it was also interesting. Interesting to see how this would be thought through from a perspective where it's not obvious he's, you know, probably most of the reason it's obvious to us now is because, Adam Smith and people like that discovered this, and it's kind of filtered down to everyone. Basically,[0:06:14] Henry: Yeah. I mean, this is not really a work of science, per se. It's I wouldn't know exactly how to describe the genre, but he's going through and he's giving an explanation of these things that are so commonplace that most people involved would already have some sort of intuition about, you know, their place within the system. But what he's bringing together is an overall explanation that accounts for the way that everything is already set up.[0:06:43] Yuta: Yeah. So I thought it was science because, he poses a theory about how society works. And then it's, you know, it's falsifiable? you can make predictions about specialization. His predictions would be like a country with more specialization has more wealth. Someone thought that, and then he you know, he has the empirical data that he looks at. So it is theory. So, yes. So what made you think that it isn't science?[0:07:22] Henry: okay. Yeah. Maybe it was a little bit too strong in claiming that it isn't a scientific work. I don't think that it practices the rigor that we would expect from social science in the time that we are talking about now. Yeah, but it was probably a very good work of social science at the time, for sure.[0:07:43] Yuta: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I totally agree. It doesn't resemble like a modern economics paper.[0:07:49] Henry: Yeah. I mean, not that I expected there to be a modern economics papers there. Yeah, so I guess that in terms of the standards of science today, it wouldn't be considered science. But at the time, yes, it would be a good work of science.[0:08:03] Yuta: I think it would. I don't know. I think it's still a work of science, but it's just that economics has adopted heavily mathematical formal methods. And Adam Smith didn't, which I mean, that's something. I mean, maybe in the rest of the look, more of it comes in. But it wasn't obvious to me that it would be like this. I thought maybe it would be have more formal work, but, not that that's a criticism.[0:08:35] Henry: Yes. And that's an interesting point.[0:08:38] Yuta: And it does make sense that it is less formal. Yeah, it is kind of less scientific, in a way it's more philosophical. Yeah, I get your point. Yeah, because you know, he is a philosopher and it's not like there was this long established tradition of economics. He's kind of creating the field largely so, I mean, that's how I see what the role of philosophers as being. It's looking at new aspects of reality that haven't been explored in a rigorous way and then creating the methodology to be able to that. And so that's definitely a philosophical process. Yeah, it's not a scientific process. You need a methodology to do science, you need to come up with the methodologies. At this primitive stage, it's more philosophical.[0:09:38] Henry: Yeah, I guess this goes beyond our original motivations for talking about this. Yeah, that is an interesting point. And putting this in the context of, like, how exactly should you read this? You're not looking for like, oh, he had this experiment that he observed where these people were trading these things or using this thing is money. But it turns out we found this evidence that it isn't exactly the way he said it was. So therefore his theory is wrong. Like that's not how you should be reading this[0:10:07] Yuta: Yeah, and I mean, so far, I think he's, he's been born out pretty right about, you know, this first part that we've been we've been talking about and I think it makes sense to talk about most of the aspects a little bit because it's, you know, the, of the founding of discipline. But yeah, we can talk about the more another time.[0:10:37] Henry: Yeah, I also want to say, so maybe getting back onto the core material. You were mentioning how first he observes that in a poor tribe, right was the example. But everyone is basically employed end in that way. Everyone is not completely self sufficient, is pretty self sufficient. They can get their own food and they maintain their own shelter, and they get whatever the resources they need directly. They don't rely on other people for necessary. Resource is. But one of the aspects of this is that if you weren't self sufficient, not only would you not be employed that you would be dead like it's not really a matter of the everyone decides to be employed. It's more that you can't not be employed.[0:11:29] Yuta: I think we'll Another thing is even went in communities that are highly interdependent, like poor communities that are highly interdependent. I think everyone is still employed just because it's easy to be useful in a city where, I guess, more There isn't, like, a huge inequality in the returns to labour. Something we thought.[0:12:00] Henry: Yeah, this is another point that he brought up it. Was that all right? Uh huh. It was, according to his observations, it doesn't seem that people very and natural talent Teoh a very significant degree, or at least not to a significant degree in comparison to the ah possible differences and returns the labour that adults seem to have. No. And the explanation for this is that are the justification for how this could be the case, while still there is such a discrepancy in return. So labor is that in fact, under certain circumstances, specialization being allowed will allow you to provide much more value than if you weren't specialized.[0:12:48] Yuta: Yeah, so yeah. So how that would apply to the poor tried, I think, is even if people are you know, their specialized like it's the tribe where you know, you have the hunters, and then you have They're gathers. You have people tending to the food, growing crops and people hunting like that's specialization, But they're still going to be poor, and it's still going to be very high, great or ratio of people that are doing useful work. So it's not, just being, you know, self sufficient, even like kind of interdependent societies can be poor. Ah, and have high employment.[0:13:43] Henry: I think there's a difference between interdependence and ah specialization because you ca NBI interdependent and still not be specialized. You conduce a lot of different tasks, but not all the tasks. So I guess that maybe what it is is that we're creating a false dichotomy between no specialization and being specialized. It's more where along the scale of specialization is allowed in your society.[0:14:12] Yuta: Yeah, Okay. And I would definitely yeah, the tribes air less specialized,[0:14:21] Henry: right? Yeah. It's not that they have no special visions, just that they're less specialized. And that has something to do with the reason that they're not as productive.[0:14:31] Yuta: Yeah. Yeah, let's exactly. And that's yeah, to move ahead. Yeah, that's yeah. Basically this point here. I think that the more you specialized, you can, kind of a choir mastery in this very specific thing because you're doing it, you know, for hours, every day and even begin to invent tools to, help with that. And yeah, I mean, his explanations. I really liked one of them here. They're so concrete. When here is about a boy, he seems to say it was an actual home boy, but it's boy like to play with his friends a lot. And so his job was to like this play fellows. Yeah, his I don't even know what this was. But some something with a furnace. You know, I I don't know e I live in the person chain. I have worked in, whatever factory, but so he had some task to do other furnace. And then he figured out a way to, like, open the furnace or something if he attached to rope to it to another part of the contraption. And then So he did that. And then he went out, went to play with his friends, So yeah. Adam Smith. Yeah, besides status as an example of, I guess ingenuity, and someone having with specialized task, allowing for, more productivity. All right. Yeah. And it's although it's not more productivity if you're just playing, if you show someone your invention them, that's definitely very useful,[0:16:17] Henry: right? So he describes. This is an example of specialization where it's not that your specialized in doing a particular form of like, the work that needs to be done to produce the thing. It's that there's a specialization in other directions as well. And I think that he calls this class of people philosophers right. There's a quote I highlighted. Many improvements have been made by the ingenuity of the makers of the machines when to make them became the business of a peculiar trade and some by that of those who are called philosophers or menace speculation, whose trade is not to do anything but to observe everything and who, upon that account, are often capable of combining together the powers of the most distant into similar objects in their progress of society. Philosophy or speculation becomes, like every other employment, the principal, our soul, trade and and occupation of a particular class of citizens. And that was one sentence.[0:17:14] Yuta: Yeah, and, of course, Smith Bottoms of himself. I mean, he was a philosopher going on and on an economist[0:17:23] Henry: e. Well, I think that I sort of read this as, ah, he calls them philosophers. But maybe today we would call them academics, scientists and philosophers.[0:17:36] Yuta: Oh, I thought he meant philosophers in particular. But[0:17:40] Henry: But, I mean, if he was looking at, like, if he was to, you know, come to the 21st century, I think that he would identify those people as what he meant by philosophers as well. Do you[0:17:51] Yuta: think? I don't know. I mean, well, Adam Smith in particular was a false for, you know, as we would think of a false for right. But yeah, maybe. Yeah, I didn't. Yeah, Mom, What I read isn't telling me, but it's but yeah, I think you meant probably philosophers. And you could maybe in include some of what scientists do inside of that. But it seemed like you meant fosters. Just be. Is he talked about them being, kind of most associated with ah, ideas in abstraction. He says he kind of has Ah, He takes the Shawna from when? he says that people are like you mentioned, you know, broadly similar in talent. But once they kind of specialized, they can convince themselves, Like philosophers convinced themselves that they're just, like, totally different than it. Just like a different kind of, you know, being force. yeah. You know, that would be an interesting thing to look into. How? And I'm also interested in how yeah, when people started thinking of themselves as economics Oh, muscle. I mean, like, why did he write this book? Like, you know, his previous work was pretty well received. Was about, you know, on the sentiments off moles. There's something thought look on that very straightforwardly philosophy and mean. I mean, it's in that tradition on directly sites fosters when he writes this thing, it is about, wealth.[0:19:54] Henry: Yeah, I guess I I see. It just sort of him musing about like, these are a ton of things that I've been thinking about, and it actually fits together pretty well. So I'm gonna write this book about it like it's a very it's a neat thing, cause it's, you know, written in the style of the sort of philosophical texts of the time that air read a lot in false E, But it's about, like, you know, the real world. Very normal things that happened rather than very up shark things.[0:20:29] Yuta: Yeah, there is. Yeah, there's like like we talked about that level of abstraction, but he always like, and he usually having starts with the abstract statements, like, you know, specialization brings wealth. But then he uses the extremely concrete examples. Well, which makes it beyond that part is very different from philosophy. Yeah, maybe his fall self goal of training paid off. I'm son. Yeah, I think that was a good point. It's definitely structured in the way that there, Yeah, that philosophical works were Yeah, like, Yeah, a lot. Like, David Hume.[0:21:10] Henry: Brian? Yeah. Exactly. Also[0:21:11] Yuta: as old since yeah, as always. You know Smith earlier where[0:21:16] Henry: I think they both have Hume and Smith, both of Scottish ancestry as well.[0:21:21] Yuta: Yeah, I think. Yeah. I think they're both in in Scotland for the most part. And then Anna Smith studied at Oxford, but yeah, I think they were in the same basically group of people[0:21:33] Henry: uses Scotland for a lot of examples. Really funny. you[0:21:38] Yuta: also England, England. Like the shining? yeah,[0:21:43] Henry: all right. Yeah. All their confusing names for different amounts of money. Anyway, so Okay, this So this first section is about Ah, what was your delineation of it? Again?[0:22:01] Yuta: It's about specialisation or how wealth is created through specialization, right? It's 11 Other point is I'm He says that specialisation is, biggest in manufacturing and that agriculture is kind of similarly productive. Basically everywhere.[0:22:24] Henry: Oh, yeah, that was I didn't really understand exactly what the purpose of thought section was. Yeah, So he says that it doesn't really matter where you drive your culture. It's not gonna be any more efficient in different locations.[0:22:38] Yuta: Yeah, And he says, like wealthier countries put more resources into their agriculture. But like, per unit of resource, more labor, if they're not any more efficient than in a poor country.[0:22:54] Henry: Right? And you were first back to this later actually to say that certain agricultural products are good, stable values to measure things by but also in regards to this point. Hey, does talk about it in terms of specialization, which I think is like the way that you would think of a specialization. Is that its different people deciding to focus on particular kinds of work rather than doing many different kinds of work. But he also, relates this really closely to I think this is a good insight to specialization of time, in place as well. But, ah, he refers a lot to opening not necessarily global, but a larger marketplace so that you can have certain areas that are better doing certain things, Ah, to do those things there and then you can transport it over to another place. And as long as the transportation is ah, you know, not as costly as the efficiency gain. Then it's, ah, role. Better to do in that other location.[0:24:02] Yuta: Yeah, Yeah. This geography plays a large role in his explanation in other places as well. Like he identifies that cities in the coast and then just, the wealthy regions in general tend to be along coasts or along like a a river. That, is very good for transportation on, right? Yeah, he says, Yeah, that's because if you, well, if there, then you can transport your wares to a lot of different places and convert it to things that are useful to you. Weaken specialize more basically BZ Evo access to a wire market,[0:24:45] Henry: right? Exactly. So it's and more Special Edition leads to more efficiency. More wealth?[0:24:51] Yuta: Yeah, I think the word eases. It's like the extent of the market is greater in those areas. Yeah, you're able to sell toe wide range of people is if you like, live in China. Yeah. Yeah. So if you live in the middle of a country and you don't have access to ports, then if you make you know 10 million pins, then you have no no one to sell them to. It's it's kind of pointless to make that many pins. So you have to kind of make a few pins, maybe to say you can sell to your town. But then you have to spend your time on other stuff if you want to be as productive as you can and then you're specializing specialising less. So, yeah, everyone's were[0:25:38] Henry: soft overall, right? Right. Yeah, that's the That's a major theme of specialization is that it's ah, very collaborative effort. Specialization is not to help certain people of the expense of others. It actually will make everyone better involved. Our every everyone will be a better off who's involved in the specialization, you know, game.[0:26:00] Yuta: Just about a month. Yeah, he talks about it's collaboration, but it's based on ah, self interest. Everyone's working based on self interest without at this point, I feel like this. I mean, this is kind of reveal, right? But yeah, it's, but it's like, surprisingly, I think a lot of people don't. Yeah, they don't like this idea or agree with it. What was just kind of always spice to me it because I think it's almost like a political topic now, but I think it's something that's empirically correct. So it should. It should be me on debate.[0:26:46] Henry: Well, in terms of the modern contacts. First of all, here's a quote that, you know, we can't not to say. Ah, but man has almost constant occasion for the help of his brother, and and it is in vain for him to expect it to be there. But by their benevolence on Lee, it will be more likely to prevail if he can interest their self love in his favor and true them that it is for their own advantage to do for him what he requires of them. And then there's the quote about the Baker is a little and the junior that's really famous. Yeah, it is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own self interest. We address ourselves not to their humility but to their self love and never talk of them of our own necessities. But if their advantages and what I was so yeah, those were good coats. But what I was going to say is that, I think that in the modern context, it's it's interesting to think about this as I was reading, because he gives all these examples and it's sort of like trying to justify, ah, specialization and you know, lots of other things that will get you. But it's so weird because we just take it really for granted in modern society, like you just take it for granted that you can go to the score to get food, and you don't want to make your own food like let's just I couldn't have ever amounted to any other way it would. It just seems ah, like completely different life to have to grow your own food, you know? Yeah. And for[0:28:27] Yuta: for him, that's also the truth, right? Oh,[0:28:31] Henry: yeah. He's living in a society that I don't know exactly where he's living at the time, but there is also this specialization already, but yeah, I couldn't imagine, like only being able to get food from my town. Are you something even?[0:28:49] Yuta: Yeah, that. I mean, that would mean you're living in a basically try, bring like like, there's a few in in the Congo or something,[0:28:59] Henry: right? Yeah, ya. But when you talk about the sort of political arguments that are happening, I almost wonder if it's that it's become such a baseline toe have all of the structures of specialization that the arguments are about very minor differences. But since everyone just accepts the baseline, they've seen relatively large,[0:29:26] Yuta: I think. Among economists, that's definitely I think the case. I think pretty much every minute stuff just yeah, I think that any economist will say, kind of this specialization and markets are do a pretty good job of, Verity of things on. Then they'll argue about, you know, some of the limitations of markets. But I think in the general public, the general polkas in anywhere near at that point. But yeah, that's Simmons. Another discussion. True? Yeah. Okay. Ah, but but you do hear you know all the time about you know, the invisible hand. People just like take downs of the invisible hand of the market or people or kind of greed and selfishness being just basically bad things that are basically bad for people without any acknowledgement of some of its benefits at times.[0:30:37] Henry: Yeah, I agree. But it also seems justice intuitive that people do expect to be compensated for their efforts like they'll argue about, Ah, you know, being nice and not being selfish when it's about things that are, like, special. But when it comes to going to work, you're like, yeah, I want to get better pay check if I can. Like, I don't feel bad about that.[0:31:05] Yuta: I'm and have anything. Some of these people. Okay. Okay.[0:31:11] Henry: Yeah, maybe. Maybe we're talking about different groups, but it seems some majority of people are sort of on board with the whole, like exchanging labor for money and that sort of[0:31:21] Yuta: thing. Yeah. I mean, yeah, perspective. This very messed up from being a crazy liberal arts college. Okay, of anyways, so should we talk about the second part?[0:31:39] Henry: Yeah, yeah, let's do that.[0:31:42] Yuta: Yeah. So the second part, he goes on to talk about what basically went wealth is and how it's transferred between people and the form that it's transferred between people, which is basically commodities on. Then eventually money. And he identifies of money like the value of money. It's kind of it's an interesting question. Like what? How does money have value when it's so what? He and then fights this, that the value behind money is the labor that goes into the goods. So when you buy, I guess[0:32:27] Henry: I think that's the value of the goods, right?[0:32:32] Yuta: well, it's the value of the currency as well, he says. It's It's the value of the labor that goes into producing the goods that your purchasing[0:32:46] Henry: well, that's the value of the goods. But how do you determine how much the value of the currency is[0:32:53] Yuta: by how much something costs? And then,[0:32:56] Henry: well, that's what we're trying to determine. How much How much does a loaf of bread cost in terms[0:33:01] Yuta: of literacy? So let's say it's $10. I think Adam Smith would say, Ah, the bread costs $10 because it took $10 of labour to produce the bread.[0:33:20] Henry: Ah, well, maybe you were starting a different places. I'm thinking of like, imagine we didn't have money or we didn't have a centralized system of money. Then how do we get from that to having money?[0:33:32] Yuta: Okay, I guess Weekend, that's a better place to start. So[0:33:36] Henry: we don't have dollars to reference. We just have lives of bread and, you know, other commodities.[0:33:45] Yuta: well, yeah, well, in that kiss, yeah, it's I mean, trade is a lot harder. Obviously the most. The easiest way to do it would be to trade another loaf of bread. but then he talks about oxen. Became the next kind of one of the first forms of money. Basically, right. Homer talked about people's armor being valued in terms of money. Someone had, in terms of oxen. I mean, someone had armor worth 10 oxen 100 oxen. Yeah.[0:34:27] Henry: See, you measure things in terms of oxen.[0:34:29] Yuta: Yeah, because I s oxen were useful to everyone. So you didn't. Yeah, I kind of have to, yeah. Come up with some artificial. Yeah,[0:34:44] Henry: it was basically a Barner because you're bartering with something that actually has the value that you're trying to get. Like, intrinsically. Yeah, the difference is that since everyone uses oxen, it's sort of fungible You can you can use as an intermediary value you don't toe like, expect the person that you're gonna be trading to yuta have to want the thing you have already. Yeah, yuta, they will.[0:35:09] Yuta: Yeah. So commodity is something that's basically interchangeable, right? So yeah, basically, oxygen became a commodity which Yeah, it's kind of halfway to a currency, as I see.[0:35:24] Henry: Yeah, they were proto currency[0:35:28] Yuta: on young and from there, yeah, you eventually get to Hey, talks about precious metals have always been very popular. Ah, forms of currency because, says most important beacon split them apart. And then you can also put them back together without altering their value. Easy. Can you refuse the metals? Melton in season[0:35:56] Henry: and they have a really scarcity as well. It's not easy to counterfeit it.[0:36:01] Yuta: Yeah, and then this goes to my original point where talks about when the gold mines in America were discovered over. Uh oh, but I[0:36:12] Henry: just was still happening at the time.[0:36:15] Yuta: Yeah. Yeah, that And let's Yes, 70 76. Yeah, that's where reading[0:36:23] Henry: you and always California. Yeah.[0:36:27] Yuta: Which? I don't think it's happened at this at this point. Yeah, yeah, I'm pretty sure. I think this happens way. But anyways, he says the value of gold in Europe went down to 1/3 of its virginal value because the amount of labor required to produce gold became dramatically less after, the gold mines were discovered because it's easy to find gold and dig it out. And if you have, you know, a scarcity in in nature than you have to work a lot harder to get smaller amounts,[0:37:06] Henry: isn't I think this is. He doesn't mention it in here. But there's another similar story of when Spain was conquering South America. They found a bunch of gold mines there as well, and also got a lot of gold from the Incas and the Aztecs and all that. And they brought all the gold back to Seo hand It was it was, uh,[0:37:29] Yuta: around with. There wasn't original point. yeah. OK, so that wasn't[0:37:35] Henry: even worth it to bring it back to Spain because it was so deep about devalued by having so much.[0:37:43] Yuta: yeah. So that was my point about, you know, labour being force for Adam Smith, the value behind currency of the OCR. Different meeting, you know?[0:37:57] Henry: Oh, yeah, I I agree with that. Yeah,[0:38:00] Yuta: OK. Do you agree with Smith?[0:38:05] Henry: Do I agree that labour is what is money value? Yeah. Ah, yes. But I think that it might over simplify it to say it like that because it's not. It's not the labor. Ah, to be able to make something like that. It's more that the labour required to actually produce a valid one. So, for example, he describes how gold coins were given and silver coins were given stamps of approval by some centralized authority in order to show that, you know, it's ah has the right amount of the metal in it. So it actually I was able to require that much labor to create something I thought, but you could, in theory, counterfeit it by not putting as much labor in it, but still getting a stamp. So there's a little bit of marginal room for, problems with that. But[0:39:10] Yuta: I think that's a little counterfeit. Money is a little different. I think that's saying this is like the kind of currency where there is value to it, but you're kind of I'm faking it. And, like the labor that Smith is talking about, isn't the labor that goes into stamping right? It's it's labor that goes into what you can purchase with it.[0:39:36] Henry: Well, I think that to an extent. Actually, it is the labor that goes into stamping it. It's not the labor of like, actually, you know, taking a stamp and doing that. It's the labor of doing that, validly getting a valid[0:39:48] Yuta: Samp. wait, what's what's not labour?[0:39:54] Henry: Well, it's hard to do that t get a valid stamp. You have to go through some process.[0:40:01] Yuta: But why? Why would that give something? Value it?[0:40:05] Henry: Well, here's here's what I imagine is like Imagine there's 100 gold coins, but only half of them have stamps of approval, right? You know, then only the gold coins was stamps of, well, the gold coins with stance approval have a certain value. And the gold coins without the sensor approval have a lesser value.[0:40:25] Yuta: I don't I don't think so. Because, like, if I just if I got some locks and puts in stamps on them, they wouldn't have value. I mean,[0:40:35] Henry: right, right. Because it's not the value of getting your own stamp on the coin. It's the value of getting a certain valid sample on the coin. And that is limited. Like, let's say they only allowed some 50 stamps. Then it's gonna be really hard to get another stamp.[0:40:56] Yuta: Okay, this is funny, because I actually disagree with Adam Smith. Okay, I also disagree with you, uh,[0:41:05] Henry: might be stretching the term of, like, what? Labour is the flying to here. But what what were you gonna say?[0:41:14] Yuta: And also you're disagreeing with Adam Smith. Ah, yeah, your your, So I guess, Yeah. I mean, I can go with that example. Maybe I get a bunch of people, and we agreed Teoh, you know, agree on a stamp to put on rocks, and then we put them on, you know, a limited number of rocks on 10 rocks not still make those rocks valuable. There's be something behind it. Give value to those rocks. Yes, this is Yeah, This sounds very philosophical. Maybe maybe this[0:41:54] Henry: Well, so what we're talking about by value here is the value of the things that you can trade for. Ah, the rocks, right? Or the labor that goes into the things you can trade the rocks[0:42:05] Yuta: worth. I think that's the question. It's why do why does Currency of Valium? Well, if[0:42:12] Henry: it does have value, that would be the value. Right?[0:42:15] Yuta: Well, that's one answer to the question, but that's kind of assuming an answer already.[0:42:20] Henry: So this is why I think so. I I definitely am stretching it. I didn't reed this anywhere in his book, but going to your example with rocks, right? I think that the reason that your rocks no one would accept them like you would be able to trade them for anything is because it's too easy to create a counterfeit rock. It takes a very little labor Teoh counterfeit one of the rocks[0:42:48] Yuta: in my exit. On my next example, I would I had assigned with the community of people to only recognize this particular stamp, and I'll just say, you know, you can't counterfeit. There's only 10 of the rocks. It's a limited spy.[0:43:05] Henry: Yeah, but you don't know where old 10 rocks are it every time, right? Every[0:43:09] Yuta: time I try to rock some that you do.[0:43:12] Henry: Okay. Well, then I guess that it's really hard to counterfeit because you know where all the rocks are. So it's impossible. So that's about[0:43:21] Yuta: it. That's the set up of the new. So do they have value?[0:43:26] Henry: I think that they would have more value than if they were counterfeit. Herbal? Yes.[0:43:32] Yuta: Why? But they wouldn't like the rocks there. Still useless like nobody want. Right? Why would anyone, yeah, take anything[0:43:46] Henry: for the rocks? Because they have guaranteed scarcity. it's just like how we use dollars, right? The dollar is, you know, doesn't take a lot of material to make a dollar,[0:44:01] Yuta: but there's a lot of things that are scarce but that are worthless. Give me an example. okay. I mean, I could make ah painting a really shitty pain you, and there's only one of them, but it's worthless. Give to anyone but me.[0:44:25] Henry: Well, they might be easy to counterfeit that painting because no one you know, paying attention to your painting so no one's keeping track of where it is and all that only, gosh, paintings are very valuable, and there's a lot of effort put into making sure that you don't have a counterfeit. So that's part of why they have value. If no one could tell which the counterfeit was, then they wouldn't have as much value.[0:44:54] Yuta: It's not OK if paintings were counter for the ball, but they would have less value by. It's not the fact that they're scarce. That makes them valuable. Is I could I mean, I think you you also changed my scenario to I mean, I could just say in my scenario, my painting is not gonna credible. You know? I put it online and it's yeah, whatever. Whatever I put in a bank vault, whatever. so you know, I think it makes it valuable. It wouldn't be valuable. Would still be junk. I[0:45:38] Henry: do get the intuition you're going for, and I'm trying to think of how you would justify the other side. yeah.[0:45:46] Yuta: Let me Come on. The other side could just not have a[0:45:52] Henry: I think, though, that there is something to this, that scarcity is an important part of why certain money has value.[0:46:01] Yuta: No, I I agree. If something isn't scare, Senate can't serve as a store of value. But I don't think that's, uh okay.[0:46:11] Henry: But it's not sufficient to make something valuable.[0:46:14] Yuta: Yeah, and it's almost besides the point I want to say, and I think Smith Yeah, maybe off off reed closer. See what he would say? But if he does it, and five, the labour or the value with the labor.[0:46:34] Henry: Yeah, I think you're right. Ah, that one of the so. Another reason that would sorry. Another factor in determining the value of your painting is how much effort went into Or you know, how much labor went into the creation of the painting, right? And if it didn't really take much effort like you're not a good painter and you didn't spend your entire life on this painting, then[0:46:56] Yuta: I mean, honestly, if I spent 100 hours on a painting, I think it would still be pretty much worthless on the market.[0:47:05] Henry: Well, right, because you're about painter, it's labour's equally valuable. Right?[0:47:12] Yuta: Okay. It's okay. so, yeah, all Aiken explain Smith for for the listeners a little bit on this point where he says, Yeah, it's not just, you know, the number of hours that you put in that is the value behind currency. Uh huh. Okay. yeah, he says, it's labour, but you have to take into account the number of years that you want that went into learning the skill to produce labor and yourself taking to count the intensity of labor. So, like 10 hours of hard work could be more labour than 20 hours of lazy work or someone with 10 years of experience could, used more labour in in an hour that in someone with no experience in towers, eso and this I think, Yeah, I'm Is that Do you agree with that? Um,[0:48:19] Henry: yeah, yeah, that's what I was thinking about. So yeah, I think, but that's how you can differentiate labor. And it's so it's not just the exact thing that you did. It's everything that was required to come to that point that you could do that.[0:48:36] Yuta: Yeah, And I think you made a comment along these lines, but I think this is I mean handing. He massively stretched the definition of labor here. I did not good. Yeah. So this is one of my points of disagreement with him, Which by, by the way, it's totally I mean, I think this was so great of work so far, and I'm gonna definitely reed the whole thing, so I don't mean it's not still see a gotcha. You know, 300 years, I e hopefully reason made progress. That's yeah, it's not impressive at all. You just disagree, but, uh yeah, I do disagree on this point. and this kind of young it kind of starts up this point were he stretches the definition of labor so much that it basically to me, I think he acquits it with value, Basically, because he doesn't If you just talk to like a regular person, Labour is, you know, the amount of effort you put into stuff basically or the amount of work. And if, yeah, if someone with 10 years of experience does just some highly specialize thing, I don't know. To me, that doesn't seem like, a lot of labor went into the exact[0:50:05] Henry: like, if you're a Web designer and you goto work and you sit and watch you two for eight hours, and then Stanton our programming then that's not a lot of labor, even though you're paid a ton of money. Yeah,[0:50:17] Yuta: so, Yeah. Good example. Yes. A Smith would say that person put in. Let's say they make, $150,000 a year and morning working, you know, at a grocery store. Full time makes, let's say, 30,000. Ah, year, Smith would say, My reading is the programmer put in five times more labour than the grocery store clerk?[0:50:46] Henry: Roughly. Yeah. I mean, there are other factors that go into determining your salary as well, but that is one of the major ones.[0:50:54] Yuta: Well, I wouldn't Smith say. I mean, that is what span currency. But then anyways, yes. So he would identify it. Obviously not with, like, the physical labor, which is, I think, kind of what you would normally think of Labour's mean, But he would have been fired with instead. kind of. The programmer spent many years in school learning to program Probably yes, pro four years in college for most rumors, something that I'm not maybe a couple years of experience. while this clerk didn't put in and then So if you have all those up labour of the parameters five times more than the labour of the grocery store clerk[0:51:46] Henry: yeah, that is that is an interesting observation. I I think you're right that Ah, he is equating labor and value. But I I wonder if this is a mistake, though I maybe he intends to do that. And he's trying to show that what we think of us Labour really should be encompassing. What we refer to is value.[0:52:13] Yuta: I I think he's trying to do that. But I think it is confused because he's trying to explain, You know, with book is the wealth of nations. It's trying explain, like, what is it behind? Yeah, currency that has value. Like why do people, care about accumulating these, bits of currency? it's not obvious that, you know, I mean, for a long time, currencies didn't have value yet to actually barter. And so there's something behind it. It's and then he's saying, It's the labor, so that that seems to me. It's like if you say labor, is what gives things, value it. I think it's a specific answer, you know, a clear answer. And then, if you kind of conflate labor with value than it's almost like you're not answering the question at all,[0:53:16] Henry: you might even call his. You might even calls approach a labour theory of value. So yeah, just completely not the lever theory of value.[0:53:29] Yuta: No, it is. I think that's that's when it's going, Yeah, where is going to go next? That actually saw a super spies? Because in a class refreshing, your yeah, I read a lot of capital by Karl Marx, and eating Tree starts off. Basically, this is almost the same exact way, except he starts with, Ah, currency and labour are and value instead of I'll Smith starts with specialization all the time. They're pretty similar. And then, yeah, in my understanding from three years ago, this is, the same argument that Karl Marx gave. He even has the same examples. Basically, I think he made a views diamonds instead of gold. But I think he probably talked about gold to But how? Diamonds are very hard to get. You have to like they're in after our something. And then just people spend. It's like he kind of describes how hard it is to mine diamonds. And he says, That's why diamonds are very valuable on bits. Eso it's the labor. That's the store for the what backs value behind no currency and capital and young. I mean, from there it goes, you know, Ah ha, you is the same argument, which really surprised me. I mean, when I read Marx is book, it just It was just, like, totally ridiculous to me,[0:55:16] Henry: huh? But now that it says it now, it's fine. No, no, I e no. Well, I think, though, so[0:55:26] Yuta: Oh, Adam Smith came way before marks, If I remember correctly, so I mean and I'm pretty sure marks. Yeah. You know, he had the benefit of hindsight a little bit[0:55:38] Henry: to to that. Ah, this is just a tangential point. But this marks. Do you think he also is talking about it in the sense of that, certain labor can be differentiated like some labor is more valuable than other labor.[0:55:56] Yuta: Yeah, he, talks about specialization. I remember that specifically and then talks about Yeah, kind of. And he wrote this 18 67 came out Capital. See, he has almost 100 years on up on Smith. So I think there's more, you know, special efficient at this point. I can't Yeah, I can't remember exactly. I'll look into it. exactly how he explains the differences in the value of labour for, like, information workers. Basically[0:56:39] Henry: Well, what? I always interpreted the Marxist for you to be. But maybe I don't have a clear view, as I thought is that, it doesn't matter what people want. It's not turned by the market how valuable your thing is. It's just determined by how much effort you put into making. The thing that's about valuable it is, and you don't seem too problematic with that is that then all labor is basically of the same value because it's just the same amount of effort there are. You know, it's measured in amount of effort you put into it, but clearly I think that what ah Smith is trying to villainy between different labour's that have different value is some labor is more valuable if it's mawr demanded. Like if more people want it,[0:57:33] Yuta: well, I don't think I mean, I agreed up to that last point. I don't He doesn't bring in whether people want the commodities so far in the book. I think he says, unifies value with labor, and I think he's the same with marks on that point.[0:57:58] Henry: Maybe they differentiate later than I. I guess I would have to read it again. But I interpreted as, that's part of what he meant by not all labour has the same Ah, like, you know, great value. Some labour's worth twice as much of the labour for certain reasons.[0:58:20] Yuta: Yeah. Okay. All of godson quotes[0:58:25] Henry: about reed weaken. Okay, You wanna say some puts?[0:58:32] Yuta: okay, here it is, the real price of everything. What? Everything really costs to the man who wants to acquire it is the toil and trouble of acquiring it. right. The value of any commodity, therefore, to the person who possesses it and who means not user consumed himself. But to exchange it for other commodities is equal to the quantity of labour which enables him to purchase or command labor. Therefore, is the real measure of the exchangeable value of all commodities. Yeah, and that just seems like pure labor theory of value. Mm. Thank you. Yeah. And I agree with your impression of marks. I think that is what Marx says. And I also think that's what it says. Okay.[0:59:36] Henry: Okay. Yeah, I e think I'm coming to a better idea now. Yeah, I think the differentiation comes later. They do agree that labour is the basis for value, but and, you know, it will come most later where they disagree about some things[0:59:51] Yuta: and also like the beginning part. I think I don't think like Marx understood much of what Smith was saying. First part about specialization from what I remember, and it's kind of weird abuse to me. It seems like if he specialized, it allows you to, Even if he put in the same amount of work, it allows you to be wildly more productive and, you know, better compensated as a result because of you know, how your labor is organized and yeah, I thought the first the entire point of the first few chapters was that how you organized labor can, you know, increase the productivity of a group of people by 102 100 times. And to me, That's just those all seem, like arguments against the labor theory of value. It, you know, taken Teoh, if you just extend those arguments out a little bit. So, you know, I think clearly the first part of that book is very much, not like Marks. And yeah, it was a little confusing to me. Not that second part. Yeah, it seems to me to be in opposition with first part.[1:01:15] Henry: Ah, I guess that so in the same way that having put effort into a skill say, right man will increase the the amounts of labour you're capable doing and given time, I think that he would also say that by being in a some organizational structure that will also increase the amount of value or the amount of labor that you're able to dio here. I can see kind of your original point, which is that he's kind of using labour in a weird way.[1:01:51] Yuta: Yeah, And you're of Freudian slip.[1:01:54] Henry: Yeah, I know. Yeah, yeah. So they're doing the same, like, you know, they're putting in the same Maybe effort and value are better. Words sees. Yeah, So they put the same effort. Uh oh, that's are, you know, I I know. But[1:02:10] Yuta: even less true effort just seems more, clear. We not value. but yeah, yeah, it does seem like Adam Smith's idea of labor or definition of labour becomes very tortured at this point where you would identify just busy specialized. Let's say he's one of those examples like, Let's say, someone makes was a pin maker said he made pins for 10 hours a day and he produced 100 pins. Well, it's I'm all Smith, I think uses 20 pins a day something. What is it? You know, it's a lot of work to participant, and you want to read about that. And so you didn't read the book, and then he joins the factory and then with 10 other people. Let's say he brute. He produces £5000 a day. altogether. Yeah, You? Yeah. So yeah. Hey, became dramatically more productive. And I guess Smith would say he put in more labour into it, but e did not find out with education. Really? the I mean, maybe you needed a little bit of training, but not much. And also, if you just took the counterfactual of whether you go into the factory or on your own. You know, the amount of flirting you need to go on your own is lot closure. but yeah, so I mean, yeah, that definition of flavor where the person working in the factory puts in, you know, 100 times more labour, whatever or whatever numbers is kind of tortured definition of flavor from[1:04:03] Henry: the way that you phrase it is a little difficult. I think it may be. Here's ah way you could say is that hey, puts in it requires more labour of him.[1:04:18] Yuta: Yeah, that I mean, that doesn't seem true.[1:04:22] Henry: Well, I guess that the intuition is that he's putting in the same amount of effort, right? It requires the same on effort on his part. Just in that, those 10 hours what he's doing, he's putting, you know, the same amount of calories towards You don't work. Yeah, try it left. So in that sense, he's not doing anything extra. So what would you call it that is increasing when he's working in the factory?[1:04:50] Yuta: His spot activity, I mean well, that we can all agree on, like Smith and me and you[1:04:58] Henry: so maybe is it that he's conflating effort and productivity,[1:05:05] Yuta: which is the same as conflating labor and ah, value.[1:05:10] Henry: Yeah. Okay, I see your 0.1.[1:05:15] Yuta: Yeah, but then Okay. So[1:05:17] Henry: I think, though, that it's not so suffered because I think that you could conceive like it's possible to conceive of effort and productivity in a unitary concept concept. It's sort of just has those two things as factors.[1:05:36] Yuta: wait. What? Ok, so what? Even this effort. And then I didn't understand your point.[1:05:44] Henry: So I would say that I'm just kind of coming up with us, but I'm trying to work along with how you're describing it. So effort would be the amount of actual physical actions you have to dio in order to complete size. We were actually mean. Yeah, sure. I'm avoiding a labor just because he uses it differently and I don't want to be like this. And then productivity would be the actual results of your actions.[1:06:17] Yuta: I Okay, I agree with that on. Yeah,[1:06:24] Henry: I did hide this sort of a Did you can have this sort of unitary concept. Call it labor, which is something of a combination of the amount of effort and the amount of things you produce per effort.[1:06:40] Yuta: I don't understand what e I mean. Okay, but that's ridiculous.[1:06:47] Henry: Well, so imagine I think of it this way. So imagine you're driving your car, right? Your car is going to go at a specific speed. Let's call it, you know, the speed of the car and you're gonna be driving for a certain amount of time. Let's call that the duration of the drive. Then you can have a concept of Thea Mount of Distance you drove, which is going to be determined by the multiplication of the this, the length of time that you drove and the speed at which you drove. So there's no like, you know, it's all intuitive, so maybe you could have in the same case. Ah, your effort on your productivity is theme, amount of stuff he produced per effort that you put in. And then the results of that is your labor.[1:07:41] Yuta: I think I think we should move on, OK, I mean, let's even let's just be having less and less intuitive. I mean, why, Yeah, that's not really very I mean, you can make up some new concept, but but it's not labour.[1:07:59] Henry: Yeah, I get what you're saying. I think I just kind of, you know, I went along with his trajectory and took it A Z was talking about it, but I agree that it he could have done this better. And he's making a conceptual error to complete those concepts.[1:08:19] Yuta: Yeah, I mean, I definitely I guess I get the idea that, you know, we shouldn't It should be our first move to go with Oh, he's wrong But, yeah, just those defenses I don't agree with.[1:08:35] Henry: So do you think we could just have a Labour prime and say That's what he's talking about? Or do you think he's actually saying something false about labour problem? Even[1:08:43] Yuta: I think he's saying something forth,[1:08:47] Henry: and that's because, what he describes his labor isn't actually what value is,[1:08:56] Yuta: Well, he says Labour. Yeah, exactly. I mean, he says Labour's behind the value of commodities. You know, the quote red so that pretty much exactly. And I think that's wrong. And of course, yuta Cement by Labour, he meant something else than he could be right. But I mean, Labour's labor, you can't just make up your own definitions of words and then be right.[1:09:20] Henry: Yeah. So I guess then, Ah, it could be that were either disagreeing with his definition of labor or were disagreeing with some claim about labor.[1:09:35] Yuta: well,[1:09:37] Henry: so this is back to the definitions are going feeling We're gonna bring this up every single time. E[1:09:44] Yuta: guess it gets a little, you know, model.[1:09:47] Henry: And I find the argument of the definition obviously to be an interesting. So I just sort of accepted that the way he's using it. That's what we're talking about when we're talking about labor[1:09:57] Yuta: way. But that's not way. Oh, no. I just gets even more confusing. The lamer is a word,[1:10:03] Henry: you know, E Yeah, I know. But I find that easier to do when I was reading rather than replace Labour was something else. Every time I thought.[1:10:15] Yuta: I guess you okay, if yeah, maybe this is This makes it clear. if he's right about if he has the right definition flavor, then I would say he's wrong about, you know, equating labor and value. But if he has the right definition or it only have you Yeah. Made up definition than he's right. But also he's not saying anything. I mean, he's not explaining what the value of commodities drives from,[1:10:52] Henry: I guess I might subtly disagree, but that's fine. We can move on.[1:10:57] Yuta: Yeah, but he's an explanation of the value of commodities. Is I'm I mean, if it's a circular definition, that doesn't help, right? You want to bring in something new, that grounds value, and that has some explanatory value. So Labour feels like it. It would, and it would if it were true. But[1:11:21] Henry: right as you're saying, like he's using this word labor as if it was some other concept that he's bringing into the picture. But actually, he's just redefining value to be or redefining Labour to be value. Yeah, and so nothing actually was explained.[1:11:37] Yuta: Yeah, I'm definitely going to read the rest of this, so maybe it'll make things more clear on.[1:11:44] Henry: I got a sense from what we read so far that he was actually talking about something, and that thing, I assumed, was what he meant by labor. Eso. That's why I didn't have as much of a problem with it. But I can see use your position being different.[1:12:02] Yuta: Yeah. Also, I don't know to me. Yeah, the first part. The logical. It's so weird because the first part to me, it just seems like an art. An explanation of why labour isn't what gives value to wealthy society.[1:12:23] Henry: Oh, yeah? And then you completely floats it on time.[1:12:26] Yuta: Yeah. Just example about the poor tribes. Like even. You know, he explicitly says, Like, in poor times, everyone is basically fully employed In rich societies, lots of people are unemployed. but how can that be? I'm in straightforwardly. His explanation seems to explain why. You know, societies with less labor, are wealthier and ideas with basically everyone laboring full time the victim, but yeah. Weaken. We've been circling around this point.[1:13:08] Henry: Yeah. So we've talked about money and we started talking about labour. Is there anything I'll see when it's ah, odd?[1:13:23] Yuta: I think we covered the first. Yeah, the two parts that I am wanted to cover. yeah, I had something, but I've forgetting. Do you have anything final? Teoh?[1:13:42] Henry: There was a section on where he talks about how prices are determined. Do you? Did you go to that part?[1:13:51] Yuta: I don't think so.[1:13:52] Henry: Okay. Yeah. Then Weaken Weaken To do that next time. Yeah, but maybe I could just bring him one last thing about the money Example. So I was trying to get to something, and I want to see what you think of it. so this was the thought experiment is that you have 100 gold coins and 50 of them are stamped right, you know, And it's been decreed by the authority. The only 50 of them are gonna be stamped, but they're not, you know, kept track of it all every moment. So it's possible to counterfeit it if you're able to somehow get a sample. But the factor that I want to consider changing is how much or how hard is it to get a counterfeit stamp? I think that if it's really hard, like, practically impossible, then it would be relatively easy and straightforward to use those stamped gold coins as currency. But if it was basically a Z Z is coming up with your own stamp in your house and that would get you a valid looking stamp, then I think it would be impossible to use them as currency or at least they would be severely devalued. Yeah, so I think that well, it might not be the only factor. I think that it's a very important factor for determining the value of a currency is how easy it is counterfeit.[1:15:22] Yuta: yeah. I mean, I think I agree. I would phrase that as it's an important doctor for allowing something to be a currency, Yeah, but yeah, I think where we are basically making the same point.[1:15:41] Henry: But I think what's interesting about it, which will get to I think what you were trying to say is thought, the purpose of having the stamps in the first place was not to somehow, you know, create it as a currency like there wasn't a concept of thought. Even the purpose was to guarantee that that particular coin had been weighed and measured toe contain a certain amount of the metal inside. Right, That was a 1,000,000 stamp. The stamp was not just an empty signal, like we have allowed this many gold coins like I oppose in my experiment. Ah, but it was, ah, measure of how much actual metal was inside of it. Of a certain you know, purity. Ah, so that while you're trading, you don't have to check that yourself. Yeah. So the real value of the stamp is a convenience E, but it didn't actually, the the Salafist the Value of the stamp the purpose of this stamp. But the value of the currency is still in the metal itself and the labour took to create that matter.[1:16:52] Yuta: I think that Yeah, this is Remember what I was going to bring up? And it's It's about this kind of, so, yeah, where do we think value comes from? I think this is a good final topic. And because it's about what Smith wrote about Banana and explaining what he said. So you So you're saying that the value is in the metal, but not in the stand? Yes. All right.[1:17:22] Henry: Yes. I'm sort of trying to disprove my original thought experiment what was wrong with it.[1:17:27] Yuta: And you're also disagreeing with Adam Smith. B is here and fights the value with labour. Oh, really? Into what you can obtain with the currency.[1:17:41] Henry: well, I thought he I thought I was agreeing with him on this point at least, which was that the value of the currency is the amount of labor that went into producing the metal that goes in the currency.[1:17:53] Yuta: Oh, so wait. Oh, I can I thought, by the values in the metal I thought you meant in the physical metal. No. Oh, so it's OK, OK, that sounds like it's not in the metal. It's an the labor that went into Yeah, I[1:18:13] Henry: guess. I mean, the value of the metal meaning the labour took to get that medal[1:18:19] Yuta: okay on this supplies for everything like[1:18:23] Henry: right. But in certain defined Yeah, like he refers the Scotland again. They would trade and nails, sometimes as currency.[1:18:34] Yuta: But then the[1:18:35] Henry: purpose of it was that it took some labour in order to create the currency and that determines the value of the currency. And you can trade that around Ah, based on the value of labor that went into the currency for other labor.[1:18:50] Yuta: Okay, this is a little bit different from Smith because he makes the distinction, but it's the value of the things you can obtain with the commodity. That's the value of the quantity. And you're saying it's it's the value of or its labor that went into obtaining the actual currency. That's the value of the currency.[1:19:15] Henry: Yeah. Overall, Yes. So that would also incorporate counterfeiting.[1:19:21] Yuta: So but then what if you use something like, what's a seashells? Air. Very Ah, easy to obtain initially. But they're in the limited supply. So there a good commodity, then what? But then, you know, they're rare, so they become extremely valuable. How couldn't you? In that case, he couldn't identify the value of the commodity with labor. Right when[1:19:55] Henry: you say commodity or you're referring to the seashell. Yeah, I think I think you would. I think that because it's a rare it's harder and harder to find new seashells. So requires more labour.[1:20:14] Yuta: yeah. Okay, um[1:20:18] Henry: and because that it's harder to find new seashells, you can make it more expensive to get existing seashells and therefore the existing C cells have more value.[1:20:31] Yuta: Yeah, I guess. I mean, I agree that it went become harder and harder to get, you know, more seashells as they become more scarce. But I think that's not where the value comes from because I mean again, this is just the same point. But just be something is scarce. Doesn't make it valuable.[1:20:53] Henry: Yeah, I guess we haven't really addressed that. I think I need to think about that more. I'm not really putting a lot of good content into interesting that more just random rent rambling, but[1:21:06] Yuta: because there are a lot of hard to obtain things that are worthless,[1:21:11] Henry: right? Exactly. Lots of unique artwork that is not worth anything. Yeah, but in terms of the social thing, I actually I like the way of thinking about this, That so it's think of it in terms of, ah, game that you want to get a seashell, right? You have two options. You can either go and look for a seashell, which is gonna take some amount of effort, or you can buy a social by, you know, trading in some way. So let's say you have another thing that's worth amount like that. You put some effort into getting so you can trade that for a special right. So then you will decide what to do based on how hard it is to find Ah, seashell, and how easy it is or how much labor you know, labor value. It costs to buy a seashell. But it turns out that people selling she sells know how much labor it takes to find a new seasonal. So what they'll do is they will make their seashells as's close to that price as possible. And therefore the seashells have that price. Well,[1:22:26] Yuta: if they didn't have the price, they wouldn't bother to find he[1:22:30] Henry: sells right. Well, if they were price lower than a ah, if they were priced lower than it costs to go find a seashell in terms of labour vaccine, then you would prefer to buy seashells rather than go look for new ones. Right? So they can jack up the price all the way to exactly how much labor costs to go find a new one and they'll get the maximout out of their seashell.[1:22:58] Yuta: Wait, wait. I wouldn't, but okay, if the price of the sea shell for the seller is the price to obtain them and it wouldn't be worth them, they wouldn't make a profit. So it wouldn't be worth the time to find seashells, right? Like the value the money that you get from selling the seashell would have to be higher than the value he spent on obtaining official that's the Prophet[1:23:30] Henry: E. I guess that since it's a currency, you shouldn't be really profiting off of it. I think that it would be a pretty matched market,[1:23:42] Yuta: but not proof. Wall. But then, if it's perfectly not so, then you wouldn't get any new seashells we could. OK, we could do this in terms of Bitcoin lately.[1:23:55] Henry: I mean, that's kind of what we've been talking around the whole time. Yeah,[1:23:59] Yuta: I guess it is kind of like an idealized It's like, Yeah, the platonic ideal of currency. Basically, Yeah. So great. Yeah. Yes. as long as the internet exists So I guess you don't even need the Internet. Probably, But, and he was[1:24:23] Henry: don't need the internet in orderto half that coin. But you do need it in order to mind. Bitcoin.[1:24:28] Yuta: Yeah, Yeah. so late? Yeah, When does someone mine the quee

[youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PW3B9BXuy3k&w=560&h=315] In this special bonus podcast, we take a moment to talk to Aaron Goldfarb, whiskey and cocktail journalist and the author of Hacking Whiskey. We talk about his origins and how he got into journalism. The state of NYC at the moment during COVID-19. Then we talk about what led him into covering spirits, his thoughts on the secondary market crackdowns, some of his favorite articles, and where inspiration strikes. Show Notes: Hacking Whiskey Transcript 0:00 Alright, you knew I couldn't do a whole podcast without screwing up. You're gonna think I'm a boomer all these guys at home. 0:07 I'm Generation X. I swear it. Starts from the top. 0:22 Welcome to this special bonus episode of bourbon pursuit. We're all stuck at home during quarantine. So I can't think of a better way to make the time go by faster than bringing a few bonus podcasts to you all. In this episode, we're joined by Aaron Goldfarb. He's a renowned whiskey and cocktail writer. So you've likely come across many of his articles through vine pear, calm, esquire.com, whiskey advocate, bourbon plus, and many more. He has a book out called hacking whiskey and we talk about that later in the show as well. Now at the beginning of this podcast during that blooper, it sounded pretty good. Did that sound about normal? Well, it's about the sound a bit muffled because I 1:00 wasn't paying attention and didn't realize that Aaron was talking into his computer microphone instead of the external one. But don't worry just a few minutes in, we fix it and it all gets squared away. Now make sure that you are subscribed to our Facebook and YouTube channels because we are doing live streams pretty regularly now, and we'd love to have you join us. So enjoy this bonus episode and remember, keep those hands sanitized. We're all in this together. Cheers. 1:30 Welcome back to another episode of bourbon pursuit, a special COVID-19 edition. Kenny here and we are talking with somebody that had tried to join us in the last roundtable but we had some technical difficulties so I wanted to reintroduce everybody to the man Aaron Goldfarb. So welcome back. Take us back to the show. Yeah, I think I might have faked those technical difficulties just because I wanted that one on one conversation with you. You know what? I you're you're making a little money. 2:00 blush a little bit. I appreciate the appreciate the kudos there. But honestly, we're happy to have you. You know, actually, I got a message from Ryan and Fred earlier. They're like, hey, Are we recording something tonight with Aaron? And because I just I just put it in our BP calendar. And Ryan was like, man, I hurt my back today. I can't make it. I feel so bad. And then, Fred's Fred's. So everybody probably knows that he's doing live streams every single day at one o'clock and nine o'clock. And he's like, he's like, I can't make it just let Aaron know that he's one of my favorite writers. And I was like, it's like it's okay guys. Like I can I think I can handle this on my own. 2:35 I don't get double team. Yeah, when we start talking about whiskey and it's an easy way to kind of get going. So I kind of want to you know, learn more about you, I guess, you know, we've I've read a lot of your stuff before, through various media outlets and everything like that. But you know, I, we don't really know much about you. So kind of talk about a little bit like about your entry, like, first into journalism. And then really what 3:00 got you into whiskey as well? 3:02 Yeah, you know, my entry into drinks writing and whiskey is kind of just consistent failure over 20 years I, I went to film school 3:12 at Syracuse and I wanted to be a filmmaker. I kicked around in the early aughts and Manhattan, writing screenplays and trying to make films that didn't work very well. 3:24 wrote a few novels those worked a little better. But this whole time, like any good writer, I was drinking heavily. 3:33 helps me get through the good times in the bed. Right? But unlike the other writers who might have been slugging handles of vodka, I thought, well, you know, there's a better way to get drunk. 3:44 And luckily, you know, I moved to Manhattan in 2001. And that was right as craft beer was emerging. That was right. As you know, the craft cocktail scene was emerging in New York, the epicenter of all places. That was as you 4:00 You know, bourbon was again becoming hot, you know, Pappy 15 comes out in 2004, I believe and you know, you can get on the shelves for 30 bucks or 50 bucks. And that was a lot of money to me back then. So I didn't buy as much of it as some of my friends that had normal jobs did at the time. But, you know, it's very lucky to just be old and growing up at the right time, that naturally I was in all these scenes at the same time. 4:33 So I developed a knowledge base. I never had any plans to write about this stuff. 4:39 You know, your college counselor or your high school counselor doesn't say, you too, can be a whiskey writer when you grow up. 4:46 You know, maybe they say that these days, but they weren't saying that in the late 90s and early 2000s. 4:53 You know, I think maybe David wonder was the only booze writer on planet earth Michael Jackson, maybe 4:59 I've heard that name. 5:00 Before I know Fred's talking about Michael Jackson before, and everybody wants to think of the pop singer, but no, there was somebody before that, that or maybe not before that, but still a person in the scene that was writing a lot about about Jackie and about cocktails. Yeah, you know, Lou Bryson, I guess was there, he's always been there. 5:18 But you know, I built this knowledge base. And then, you know, around 5:23 the late aughts, the early 2010s. Now, all of a sudden, the mainstream publications were realizing, you know, these things are red hot, and we haven't cultivated any writers that necessarily know about these things. So I was a writer, not a magazine writer, or website writer, and I knew these things. And so my first gig ever was for Esquire, I kind of fell backwards into one of the best, you know, in my opinion publications in in the history of America. And I was writing beer and whiskey and cocktail stuff for them. You know, from 6:00 I don't know 2008 2009 on and then I kind of worked myself backwards and started writing for more niche publications, you know paunch fine pair whiskey advocate bourbon plus, and, you know, everywhere I've written for everyone by now, you know, I'm sure I'll be fired from jobs and right for new ones I mean it's the life of a freelance writer you take what you get and move on to the next one. That's it's interesting to like just like fall into Esquire that's like somebody like in my world just saying like, Oh, I got my first job. It's a Google right it's like in the in the tech world. So I think it's it's really interesting and cool like how you want to do that so have you been Have you been in Manhattan in New York most your life or like his his New York something? Are you your homeboy, you Norco your whole life? No, I kind of have a weird growing up too. I'm, I believe, a fifth or sixth generation. 6:54 Born in New York, and I lived there till I was about three or four and then, you know, this was the early 80s 7:00 In New York City, which I don't know if you've heard there were some issues. My my family moved to Oklahoma City. So along with Fred, I would be the second Oklahoma regular. I'm here. 7:12 live there till high school then, you know, back to New York since then. And I went to college at Syracuse and upstate New York, and I've been in New York City, now Brooklyn, since 2001. And I've been a Brooklyn since 2014. And so you're also in the kind of like the epicenter of what's happening right now with the Coronavirus I mean, especially with I shouldn't say the episode that's actually in China, but I'm saying like in America, like where all the eyeballs are on right now. It's like where you're at because it's it's the most you know, between you and San Francisco. It's the most densely populated area inside of the United States and you know, the numbers that are coming out and staggering like, I'm assuming that like right now it's it's pretty chaotic, like you'd be able to just like, look out your window and just like to see the rat start scurrying because there's no people out like, kind of give us an idea of like, what what's 8:00 Life in New York City right now. Well, you know, it's funny, I'm, you know, I've had some professional successes in my life, you know, books and whatnot. And that doesn't lead to strangers from my past necessarily writing me but this everyone I've ever met in the world who's got my email or phone number has been messaging me i think i think people assume with all the death and whatnot. It's a zombie apocalypse here, but 8:30 you know, I, I go outside every day. Some days I take a jog. There are not a lot of people on the streets. I am in a quieter neighborhood in Brooklyn. I'm in Park Slope, which is a family friendly neighborhood, but it is. It's, you know, a brownstone neighborhood. It's not the sticks by any means. I don't know what it's looking like in Manhattan now. I haven't been there in a month and I'm not sure if I'll be there for another several months. But um, 8:56 yeah, the streets are empty. 8:59 There's a lot 9:00 around the block space by six feet to get into every supermarket I go, I go Trader Joe's he's going crazy for Trader Joe's during this and it's it's funny like you say that cuz I've noticed that even our Trader Joe's there's people like lined outside so we'll say I would never go to Trader Joe's because the aisle width and news York is incredibly tight so I kind of go to the places where I don't want anyone bumping into me getting close to me. 9:27 You know of course unlike a lot of places we shop in New York by carrying it home so I go to my you know, snobby supermarket across the street and I put as much as I can possibly carry and I don't even really think that hard about what the week of meals is going to look like. And today my family just ate a grilled chicken with you know, whatever scraps we could also find some days we're eating incredibly and others were not like we ordered delivery about once a week that's still very avid here. 10:00 If you haven't heard just about every great cocktail bar is delivering cocktails right now. I haven't done that a lot. Because I have lots of booze myself, as you can see, and I know to make cocktails, and I'd rather deliver him and not coming to my house, both for both of our sakes but um, you know, if if you 10:19 you know, if I didn't have a family, I would just be reading a book a day and writing an article a day and watching a movie every night and drinking some whiskey and 90 days later, I'd come out of this, but I'm living in a house with a three year old and a newborn, and a wife who's on conference calls 10 hours a day for her busy job. So it's it's very stressful. It's very hectic, I'm outside of this dwelling 30 minutes to an hour a day if I'm lucky. 10:46 And you know, that's life right now. It's it's for people that are single and alone. It's probably lonely and incredibly boring. For people with families. It's It's It's probably the most stressful 11:00 In aggravated and tense I've ever been, you know. 11:05 So I kind of want to get back into your a little bit of your your journey into bourbon and your journey into whiskey. Like Did you have a Sherpa along the way that kind of taught you? You know, because I can look behind you in the camera right here and I see a bunch of wild turkeys decades. You got some knobs you got, but I mean you got more Russell's picks than probably rare bird 101 so 11:28 that's, and that's that's part of it too. So kind of talk about like, who was who's kind of like taught you the ropes. 11:36 You know, I kind of have a weird Sherpa. It wasn't you know, an older gentleman. You know, a good buddy of mine from college. You know, we were talking about I was kicking around making, you know, $15,000 a year writing screenplays no one wanted he became a salesman from day one. And this is my friend Derek. 11:58 And, you know 12:00 He had a massive expense account. So he didn't know more than me. But he could afford to learn things on someone else's dime. And I mean, a massive expense account. You can't even get guess the number and I won't say it in case there's 12:18 lessons and causes Listen, well, he doesn't work there anymore. But in case any litigation is pending. No, he lived in DC, which, you know, of course, at the jack rose. We've heard about what's going on with them right now. 12:31 And we, you know, he'd come to New York a lot for business. And again, this was when the emergence of really great bars in New York were coming, you know, milk and honey 1999 pegu club, I think that's 2005. 12:48 PDT 2009. Now New York's never been a really great whiskey city. To be fair. There's just too many rich people that, you know, if jack rose existed in New York, it wouldn't exist on day two. 13:00 They just got to make their prices even higher than if that's what it takes. You literally cannot price trophy bottles high enough in New York to keep them in stock. 13:10 But anyways Derek, you know we'd come to New York and we just spent silly money trying every cocktail on the menu at PDT trying any good thing in the house and you know, in the in the arts in New York City 13:26 it was still a wine city. So, you know, things like Pappy were in George t stag and stuff you could, you know, get for a reasonable Port $20 report wasn't reasonable to me back then. But of course it was reasonable to people with money so you know, even when I wasn't a writer, even when I had absolutely no money, I tried every every great whiskey released from you know, the late 90s on I never owned any of these bottles till till you know the last decade when I actually started making money by 14:00 You know, I remember when Derek got I think a case of tornado survivor and just all this stuff we were we were trying all this stuff and I you know, we were both learning together on on his his company's time. I mean, learn the learn on a case of tornado I think that's your living right are you know the right people I mean that's that just kind of give us the whole thing of like, you know you never own a boat, but you have a friend that owns the boat. And even better if the friend owns the boat and someone else is paying for it. See, there you go. That's, that's 10 times better. 10 times better. You know. And there's one thing that you kind of mentioned right there about, you know, trophy bottles like in New York just being always astronomical and always rocket high. I mean, I'm assuming at this point, like you've given up the chase in regards to finding something around New York, you've got your local spot, or do you just rely on as you mentioned earlier, just like buying pics from some of your favorite people in the scene? 14:57 Yeah, well, you know writers like me. 15:01 are lucky I get to at least try everything 15:06 released because because companies send it out they don't necessarily send full bottles but Buffalo Trace since you know the B tech lineup every year and you know, every company wants you to taste their stuff. 15:18 And I like all that stuff if I ran into, you know, George t stags or hands at reasonable prices, I do buy them. 15:27 But you know, one of my favorite things to drink is is Russell's reserve pics and they're 50 bucks or 60 bucks. That's what I'm drinking most nights. That's what I was drinking earlier tonight. This is what I'm drinking right now. 15:40 Oh, there you go. The bourbon Community Roundtable internet friends pick. I thought I thought I'd kiss some ass. We'll take it. But you know, some of this stuff is extraordinary. wilderness trail is extraordinary right now and even though I have you know, thousand dollar bottles in my house that I really don't give a crap about them being 16:00 drained. I'm reaching for wilderness travel right now I'm reaching for Russell's reserve single barrels almost every single night that I'm drinking. 16:09 So, you know, I don't I don't know why. That's what interests me. You know, Blake said to me, you know, he's drank so much great stuff that he kind of enjoys the rawness of young young craft whiskey. And I wouldn't say I enjoy that that much. But you know, wilderness trail has a flavor profile, you're just not used to, you know, how many more, you know, aged mdps can you drink? How many more you know? 16:33 weeders from Buffalo Trace, can you drink you know, at a certain point, it's fun to try new flavor profiles. And that's one reason I think you're seeing a lot of bourbon geeks get into Armagnac or wine or other stuff just because they're bored with with their palates. After you've drank everything. You're just like, you know, I need something else to excite me. Yeah, that's true. I think you I think you bring up a pretty good point too, especially when we talk to a lot of people in the whiskey realm. And I think it was probably what 17:00 Three years ago, maybe two years ago when this whole like MGP craziness, like what? A Well, I mean, just it went off the off the rocker. And there are groups that were searching and hunting and just trying to find this, you know, anything over 10 year MGP and just clearing out these smaller distilleries that had anything left of it. And people are really hung up on it. And, you know, when they look at even like what we did, and starting on whiskey line and saying, like, Well, why don't you go MGP right, because everybody else was doing it. Right. And, and I think that's, hopefully it's at the point that you people will start getting that sort of fat or palate fatigue of trying the same thing over and over and over again. I think Blake's a little bit of a special character thinking that like, Yes, I want young, young Raul whiskey. 17:43 I wanted to see if he get that tattooed on his back or something like that. But um, I think I think you do bring up a solid point there because there's a lot of not only great values, which you just talked about in the Russell's world, and you get a lot of diversity, especially with those pics 18:00 There's a lot of good stuff coming out from younger distilleries now that are starting. And I think this is a while we see the the plunge of MGP stock in B, you know why I think people are going to start changing their their minds here in a little bit. Because there has been this idea that, oh, like, I'm not buying gun whiskey, I'm not buying something that's not from Kentucky. That's I, I was that person like two years ago, maybe even three years ago, I was that person too. But now like, we're starting to get to the point where a lot of these distilleries around the country outside of Kentucky are having products that are four years old that are their knockouts, I mean, they're fantastic. And we're going to get to the point here in the next, maybe another two, three years, where the shelves are just gonna be littered full of just goodies like that. Yeah, well, you know, it's funny, a lot of people used to think craft whiskey sucked because it wasn't old enough. And now you have craft whiskey. 19:00 That's you know, and it's second decade and some of it still sucks which proves 19:06 the reason it sucked was not because it was young and then you have wilderness trail and new riff which are you know, four or five years and they're they're incredible you know a lot of craft whiskey I drink one time just to see what it tastes like well there's Tron New Roof I actually reach for over you know, the big boys 19:25 So, you know, it wasn't he that a lot of these brands that I will not name unless you you know, get me in a bar, not on your podcast were bad was because they were bad because they were distilled poorly because maybe they were fermented poorly because who knows why. 19:41 But you know, wilderness trail is as certainly shown that youth is not 19:47 any excuse for not being great. So so you know a lot about whiskies we can get that we can look behind you can read a bunch of your articles about whiskey, but you make a lot of different articles about mez cows and 20:00 About everything, like, kind of talk about your journey into other spirits like, it's it's cool to have your buddy that helps you get into this wonderful world of bourbon that probably spoiled you beyond belief. But then how do you how do you get into all these other sex of like figuring out I know you've done stuff on like the perfect Martini or stuff like that to like, kind of talk about, like, how do you get into the realm of doing that as well? Well, the cynical answer is I'm a freelance writer, and every article I write makes money so 20:32 you tell me what to write about. I'm in exactly. I'm writing an article right now. I'm sorry, Fred. Pay to pay was good. 20:41 But no, you know, I have a theory that guys like us. 20:47 We collected things and we were obsessed with things from day one. I collected baseball cards, comic books, anything and I collected them as hard as but I needed full sets. I needed everything I needed to know every any passion I need. 21:00 To know everything, and then you know on to the next one. So at a certain point, you don't know everything about whiskey That's impossible. You're still learning stuff. That's why I think a lot of people have moved back towards towards dusties. Because, you know, once you've kind of mastered the modern whiskey culture, you got to start learning. Oh, that distillery produced that Oh, that's where you know, you know, stilts or whatever. And then you start moving on to other things and other tastes. 21:29 You know, as I said, Armagnac has become an inexplicably kind of big amongst, you know, upper echelon geeks. You know, it's just fun. I do drink neat whiskey almost every single night. I'm not, you know, reaching for other stuff every single night, but I like to learn 21:47 other things. 21:50 You know, I drink a lot of rum rums a very weird category as I'm sure if you've read ROM curious. You might know Yeah. 22:00 down around here somewhere. Yeah, yeah. 22:03 A lot of cool things in ROM. You know, I'm Mike my quarantine drink of choice has actually been gin cocktails, which are fun. Yeah, I will say that I am a big fan of gin cocktails. It's just something that is it's light refreshing guys. Actually gimlet is like my number one. That's what I always reach for. That's actually my my wife and his official cocktail of quarantine the gimlet. See, we can hang out. It's like It's like Gatorade and cocktail form. And I'll tell you 22:34 and shout out to new riff. They've got a barrel aged gin, and that's what I've been drinking and it really is. Yes, it's fantastic with it. I have a bottle of that over there. I like their gin, but I've never thought to use a barrel aged and am I gimlet? Alright, tomorrow. Here you go. We're creating new traditions around here already. Yeah. So no, I you know, I'm just a fan of everything except vodka actually, but I will write about it. 22:57 You know if if something's interesting, I want 23:00 Drink it if something's tasty, I want to eat it. If something's good to read, I want to read it. You know, there's lots of things in this world I don't just don't understand people that you know, kind of get stuck in their lanes and don't try to enjoy and learn as much as they can about everything. It's It's fun to learn things. I mean, that's kind of the most fun thing is, you know, I'm trying like everyone else. I'm also getting into arm and Yak and it's fun to start at zero. And you know, after a year ago, I kind of know a little about Armenia. I could I could tell someone about that. Oh, I know a little bit about mezcal. I don't know a lot about mezcal, you know, that article you're referencing, we did a blind tasting with two bonafide experts. And, you know, I think I have a pretty good palate. So I can say what I think is good and bad, but I can't tell you about you know, the varietals of a golf a or you know why this one tastes like this or where this grew or you know, the different ways of fermentation but they knew all that, you know, and it's inspiring to think, wow, I could learn all that, you know, bourbon kind of really only has one way to make it 24:00 mezcal is infinite. You know, rum has so many. Just lots of stuff to learn and so little time, except now when we're all sitting home. 24:10 So you're, you're like a leech of information is that what it comes down to? Because you're able to kind of just talk to a lot of these people that are really, really know it alls in this world and just kind of really take their story and harness it and develop something that is appealing to a visual reader. Yeah, I mean, you know, I'll never convince my parents that the most fun thing about writing about alcohol is is actually getting free education is not free booze, but, you know, it's, it's really great. You know, some of my story ideas are literally like, you know, I'd like to know a little bit more about that. And, you know, it's like a con game, I can reach out to the most important person on the topic, and they're going to talk to me if you're an average off the street, and you email the most important, you know, Armagnac maker Gen distiller and said, Can I talk to you for an hour they'd be like, 25:00 know why, but you know, they'll move mountains to talk to me just because I will write about them. So, you know, it's it's not just a way to pay the bills. It's not just a way to get free drinks. It's, it's, it's a free education on topics that interest me and you know, after over a decade of this stuff, I still have a passion for it all. So when we get back to like a whiskey article, is there one that you've written over the years that you look back and you think like, man, I loved writing that one like was, you know, was it the person? Was it the? Was it the whiskey? Like, what was it that that really like, drove you for that article? You know, my favorite articles are kind of goofy or dumber, less prestigious ones. I mean, I will admit, like the one you did with, what was it? Janae Yeah. Janae. And she made that ridiculous, old fashioned way back in the day that went viral. And you kind of said like, all right, where's she now sort of thing? Yeah, I mean, those are my favorite to write. 26:01 You know, I can I can write a, you know, 26:04 interview with a distiller or an article on how a whiskey is made, you know, in my sleep but you know, the kind of weird ones one of my favorite articles I wrote for ponch probably four or five years ago was the history of when it became very trendy in New York and Miami for bars have beds in them literal beds in them. 26:23 And those stories are always very hard to report. You know, if you if you want to write a story about you know, a distillery today, it's very easy to get these people on the phone to talk to you, they'll talk to you all day. But if you you know, I wrote a history of of foam parties a few weeks ago for fine pair, How the hell do you find a guy in the 90s who decided you know, we should blast foam into these a booth in nightclubs. It's not easy. 26:49 And it's, it's, you know, I could write a lot easier stories I could write, you know, what we call listicles Top 10 whiskies and, and, you know, get paid And work for an hour but you know, I just thought 27:00 have a passion for finding these really stupid, weirdo stories and bringing them to you. I just had flashbacks of like Panama City Beach, Florida next spring break. It's just what happened right there. 27:15 I can't wait to read that article and it comes out. So there's nothing that you'd mentioned right there about like, top 10 lists. And it seems like that is that seems to be a driver for a lot of lot of articles. It seems that it I mean, it could be articles, it could be YouTube videos, it's anything anything as a top whatever. It just drives people to it. I mean, do you have a like a love hate relationship with it? 27:40 Yeah, I mean, you know, every time uh, you know, 27:45 Esquire, GQ, you know, best whiskeys to drink right now. 10 best, whatever lists come out, you know, I see the Facebook comments I'm not seeing articles written by me articles written by anyone. And people resume their, you know, the, the brand paid for them or whatnot. 28:01 It's it's not that insidious but you know it's it's kind of like an ecosystem. You know, the brand hires a publicist and pays them, the publicist and bottles to a writer. The writer drinks the bottle, the writer wants to keep the publicist happy. The publishing company asked for a top 10 whiskies list. They publish the last 10 whiskies the last 10 publicists they like sent to them, rinse repeat, so I don't really like that stuff. 28:27 publicists probably hate me more than most writers in New York because, you know, kind of 28:32 bitchy and I don't play those games. But you know, every writer on planet earth writes listicles whether it's David wonder richer, you know, whoever, you know, they pay the bills. They have good SEO. Everyone argues about them. It doesn't matter what website it is. If you write the top 10 whiskeys right now it'll do pretty well for the day. I try to write those as little as possible. They do not interest me 28:59 if I'm doing 29:00 Those kind of lists I tried to make them interesting. I did a 29:04 about every year or two, I try to pick the best whiskey in every state for Esquire. 29:10 That'll keep you busy drinking. Yeah, it's tough. It's tough. And you know, people get furious. That's not North Dakota's best whiskey house as this guy ever tasted, blah, blah, blah. The answer is probably no, I've tasted maybe one or two Caesar, but I'm trying my damnedest unlike a lot of writers who are listening, you know, but as I said, the last 10 whiskies they've gotten the mail. 29:33 But, you know, it can be very tough to be thoughtful in this industry. When a lot of 29:42 you know guys like me, or girls like me that get paid to do it can kind of just phone it in, you know, the amateurs actually put more work in it because they're doing it for a passion not to make money. So you know, whisky blogs are some of the best smartest out there. 29:59 Whereas 30:00 You know, a lot of professional websites and magazines, it was just, you know, Hey, could you write this over the next hour? Well, I don't know anything about vodka. Okay, well, right, it's 30:09 go to the store, get five bottles, review it come up with a list. Yeah. I mean, is that is that something that in the writing world, I mean, I guess I can kind of even picture it my own world where it very beginning of my career, like I was gung ho, and I was trying to cut my teeth doing grunt work and trying to, you know, doing a lot of like, like, really hard kind of it stuff and like working insane kind of hours. And then at some point, you're just like, Okay, give it up. I'll focus on what I'm good at. And then, you know, kind of just like, let the professionalism take off from there. I guess in like, the growth pattern of what a writer is like is does it kind of have that same sort of trajectory or path in regards of, you know, you start off early, as you kind of mentioned as an amateur trying to like write a top 10 list and then you're like, Okay, I'm done with that, like, I'm going to try to find some more 31:00 Interesting. Well, I mean, food and drink writings unlike any other, you know, we're so close to the subjects, you know, we have friendship with bartenders and distillers and whatnot. 31:15 And if we weren't doing it, we'd still you know, drink these things and go to these bars. I don't think anyone would, you know, hang out with politicians if they weren't a political reporter. You know, and there's, you know, the famous thing that just sports writers hate sports by the time they've been a sports writer so long. 31:33 Yeah, you know, when you're early on trying to break into writing, and it's probably different now. 31:38 Or maybe it's even tougher now. You'll take anything someone gives you it just seems like so hard to get paid a literal dollar to write something. So it's less early on for a lot of these writers and I noticed it amongst younger younger writers right now about finding your voice and trying to do in anything interesting. 32:00 And more letting you know the site's dictate you. And the funny thing is, if you came to these sites as a, or magazines or newspapers as a 22 year old with these outlandish ideas with these crazy ideas with these ideas that no one else is writing, you probably have a better chance of selling it, you'd probably have a better chance of making good money 32:21 and it took me a while to figure that out. 32:25 figure out exactly like Oh, you're gonna pay me more I'm gonna go over this way. Yeah, wait, I'm gonna give Redbird a shout out. Yeah, go for it. David's a good friend of the show. So he's an adult and I can see you've got all you got a lot of Turkey breaks over. Okay, yeah. wrestle wrestle the muscle there. so fantastic. So I guess another question is, is that you know, once you start getting into this world, and yet, I can always understand as a writer, you have to be conscious of, you know, where the money's coming from. And so that's what you focus on. But is there something about whiskey that keeps you intrigued or keeps you kind of always tied to it? 33:01 We're like, What is it? What is it about whiskey or bourbon that like keeps you wanting to come back for more? Well, the one thing I don't write a lot about is mine. And I never really understood why I don't dislike wine. I'm not a connoisseur. And then I realized and I said to my 33:18 editor, puncture Italia, I just don't find wine funny. But whiskey is so funny. And if you've read a lot of my stuff, it's about you know, secondary markets. It's about Turkey dues. It's about you know, California gold. It's about infinity bottles. It's about, you know, geeks lining up at jack rose, even though you know, there's a pandemic, you know, there's just so many funny characters. The distillers aren't necessarily funny character characters, but they're not necessarily funny characters. But the collectors the the people that drink it and pursue it and and the people that listen to podcasts about it. They're just funny characters. 34:00 Probably a funny character to look, I live in a 1200 square foot apartment with two children and I got an entire room of whiskey. That's, that's, that's not probably a good use space. 34:12 But um, yeah, it just infinitely cracks me up to to go on the internet every day and just see what whiskey geeks are talking about doing and drinking and trading and arguing about meaning and all that stuff. And maybe one day it won't, but it's really funny to me. And, you know, if you're writing a boot story, and there's not something funny about it, it just doesn't interest me that much. As Sure. There are some of the good memes that come out of whiskey and come out of bourbon, especially, you know, even those secondary markets where people get butthurt. And then you've got the the other groups where there's people that basically have court hearings about you know, stuff like that. I'm kind of like, what at what other point would people just have this like fake court system over a transaction of bourbon that happened on the black market, like 35:00 It's it's comical. Yeah, I mean, you know, my like, career like, ethos has been trying to explain this weird world to like normal human beings like no you you first of all you have to know like 10,000 acronyms. 35:15 Yep. Yeah, I always I always thought that there'd be like a good t shirt like just full of acronyms like everywhere. You have to have like a stock market ticker in your head. What? Happy 23 Pv w 23 is now worth 19,000 You idiot. Then you just have to I mean, you have to know like if I don't pay attention for a week I come back and I'm I'm I'm messaging my friend Derek who's still locked in on it. Like what the hell is going on with this? Is that a real thing? You know? Is this is this will it box club a real thing? And you know, that was I tell you what, that's been one of the greatest recent ones when it's you can just tell the the oh geez versus the new people that are into it. They're like, Where's the signup button? I don't see it. Yeah, well, that's you know, that's 36:00 Also really funny to see you know, it drives me nuts because you know even though I said you know from the get go I was trying very good stuff I still you know, paid my dues and spent money on regular Maker's Mark and odd and stuff and these guys who were you know not even drinkers last week or you know, thinking they can just go from like nothing to balling out with you know George t stag or whatnot, it's like you know, slow down 36:28 train your palate start with 80 proof let's, let's get you up to 36:33 this level. I will say that is is like one of the corner cuts that you are, you know, corners that you can cut here in the in the whiskey world is that if you come with a big enough checkbook, you could have one of the best collections that are out there in bourbon, you know, because it's still, you know, especially in regards of what scotch prices and everything like that our whiskey prices even Pappy 2318 1900 dollars a bottle. That's that's a drop in the bucket for what some scotches go for so 37:00 If you come with a big enough checkbook, you could have one of the most insane bourbon collections that are out there just by buying directly off the secondary. Yeah, that's why it cracks me up you know? 37:10 Every so often there's yeah well constantly there's How do I get Pappy post have money. I mean, it's not hard. 37:17 You know, my friend of mine, Alex Bachman, he, I think he still does he used to 37:24 fill bars with with with spirits that was his job to find, you know, a new bar opens and they want the you know, most sick list he'd fill him up and you know, everyone Oh, we got the full Pappy collection. We'll just give him $10,000 and he can do that. It's not very hard. What's hard is finding 1960s tomorrow. What's hard is finding you know, 1950 stencil well, or what's hard is finding, you know, obscure scotches you've never heard of, or Japanese releases of, you know, whatever. That's hard buying, you know, Van Winkle or B tech that comes out every single year. You just need market rates. 38:00 Money. And again, it's not that much. You're right. I know you've written on the secondary market, but I want to kind of get your idea of like, Where is your stance on it in regards of how it was taking down or how it was kind of like ripped out? Like, was it a good thing for distilleries? Is it bad for the overall ecosystem of bourbon? Like, what's your what's your take on that? 38:18 Well, you know, I used to say, I was a free market capitalist. Now I'm stuck in a pandemic. 38:26 You know, you don't really see the secondary market for new scotch. And why is that? It's because it's priced correctly. 38:35 A lot of bourbon is not priced correctly by the distilleries. 38:41 Because they want to be the good guys who, you know 38:44 20 years ago, there was no such thing as bourbon that cost more than $50. And you know, Blanton's you know, in the 90s didn't sell for $30. So they remember that time, and they remember that time is bourbon being in every man's drink. And so 39:00 They don't want to charge what it should cost. 39:05 And, you know, I'm very friendly with Buffalo Trace, but I don't think you know, releasing their press release every single year and saying MSRP, Pappy 15 $80 or whatever it is, I don't know what it is right now. I don't think that makes him look like a good guy. It just makes everyone else fight over what the accurate prices. 39:26 So I don't begrudge anyone for charging what they charge. I don't begrudge anyone for paying what they pay. 39:33 And I think it's kind of ridiculous that the distilleries get mad at so called gouging. Well, they should price it what its price because no one's bought an $80. Pappy and, you know, a million years unless they live in a control state I suppose and won a lottery, which is likewise absurd. These places. These places would need lotteries if it was priced correctly. 39:56 So now, you know, I think that the the online Secretary 40:00 The market does the job that the distilleries didn't do and that everyone's mad at the liquor stores for trying to do. 40:08 Do you think that this is also a play by some of the distilleries to say, well, 40:15 let's look at the long game here. Let's not try to make a quick buck off of it and price it at the market instead. And you and you know that you've seen pretty much every distilleries putting in multimillion dollar expansions and everything and so they're betting on this on the long term. And it's it's the Amazon model, right? It's it's like let's let's do, you know, massive scale and not try to do you know, just short bursts of high volume? Yeah, you know, that that's true, and that's, that's a fine way to work. You know, how many total van winkles are released a year 80 to 100,000 compared to how many Buffalo Trace Eagle rare whatever. So you know, how much of a moneymaker is it for them, whether it's 41:00 Priced correctly or priced at whatever they want to call the MSRP. Yeah, I think that's a fine strategy and I guess honestly, Buffalo Trace is maybe the only distillery that has to deal with that for roses one release a year old forester one release a year, you know, all these places with one release here. 41:21 have to figure out what it what it should cost. So, you know, if that's what they want to do, I think that's fine. It feels a little hypocritical for them to price it at, you know, a very low MSRP and then get mad at people for pricing. It is the correct one. I likewise think it's silly for 41:40 liquor stores, though to you know, proudly put up their George t stag for $900. It's like, you know, I think you have better goodwill. If you sold it to your best customer for $90. I think you'd have better goodwill if you figured out a way to get it to a true lover for $90. Instead of making that extra three or $400. 42:00 But you know, I people, 42:03 economist aren't necessarily opening liquor stores. So 42:07 that's, that's for sure. Everyone's trying to figure out what works best for them and and pays the bills. Well I think the moral of the story there is that every other distillery needs to come out more special releases. Because if you do that, then they just keep following that same exact trail, every release should be a special release, right? Absolutely. Every bottle of special bottle. 42:30 And so I'm gonna just kind of like go back to like one of your stories real quick, because you had mentioned the California Gold stuff. And I know the person that makes that he's a good friend of mine. And I know that when you write stuff, and whether it be about secondary, whether it be about something like that, you might get a lot of blowback catch a lot of flack online, like have you ever like felt like Oh God, like people are really attacking me over something like this? Yeah, I mean, you know, 43:00 If you're a writer on the internet, you get called an idiot everyday your life. 43:05 But if you feel like you're exposing Fight Club or something, well, you know, it's tough because you know, I'm both a part of the hobby, I enjoy drinking these things. And I don't want to ruin the hobby, but I'm also looking for interesting stories. And after writing these stories for years, it's impossible to ruin the hobby. California gold was again, something I drink at my friend Derek's house. 43:28 And for a year or two, I was like, you got to get me in touch with our friend. 43:36 And, you know, he's he didn't want he didn't want press and then for whatever day when he said, Okay, I'll talk to you. 43:44 And 43:46 my daughter was a newborn then and it was about the worst behave she's ever been. And I was conducting this really tough score of an interview while she was just losing her shit. And yet, it did very well and 44:00 Now people I see a story came out and 44:04 can't even remember a literal magazine citing California Gold the other day and it didn't even it acted like everyone knew what that was. It was very weird, but I've become friends with Mr. California gold. 44:17 We talk occasionally. He's always got interesting takes on things. And I think it's great even though most of the commenters under Facebook will say it's not that good. 44:28 Well, most of the commenters are probably the ones that never actually had a chance to try it. And that's what it comes down. Yeah. So joke's on you with that one. 44:37 Whiskey. Awesome. So, oh, yes, yes. Make sure you're talking about hacking whiskey real quick. I want to give you a plug for that. Sorry for the shameless plug. No, at least through this is actually a perfect book for this time. came out in 2008 18. has a lot of my funny stories like California Gold, infinity bottles, I think I think I'm the first person read about infinity bottles. Maybe the second I don't know. 44:59 But it's 45:00 Really funny geeky stories plus experiments you can do from home blends. 45:08 Like you know, Travis hills. 45:11 The four roses thing Yeah, barrel proof yellow label. Yeah, really fun. you acquire every single four roses and make a barrel proof yellow label. And we did that and he also tried to do creating his own Moray mirages or marriages or whatever they're called, looking all the small batch limited edition selects and then actually trying to go and find those exact age ranges and try to do the race and ages and stuff. Yeah, I wrote about Yeah, I wrote a punch article about that too. 45:41 Where Blake mentions that he likes to Vitamix his blends because he puts them together and people were furious about that. 45:47 But yeah, there's fun experiments fat washing which is infusing you know, meats and butters and stuff into whiskey for cocktail, smoking cocktails. 45:57 Making foods out of whiskey. It's it's a very fun book. If you're 46:00 stuck inside with nothing to do except a lot of whiskey and how am I going to use this for everything I'm going to do for the next 90 days? A lot of fun experiments. There you go find it on Amazon I'm guessing Yes. Like everything else and they're still delivering so you don't have an excuse go by hacking with order it right now. It'll be there tomorrow. Well, you know, Aaron, I want to know like I said, this is a really good opportunity to kind of catch up talk about more I guess more about you your writing career and as well as just talk about whiskey in general, and kind of get an update on what's happening instead in New York. So it's been a pleasure getting to talk to you this time. It was fun. We didn't have any kids run in and yell at me. 46:40 Technically, I could hurt I hurt I hurt him a little bit the background so yeah, I mean, we'll we'll clean it a little bit and post but yeah, it turned out I think the biggest technical difficulties my quarantine beard. 46:53 are you growing it out until you until you can walk outside and and shake hands with somebody again? Or until my wife divorces me? 47:01 Whichever one comes first. No a day for whichever one comes first. There you go keep that razor handy though. Yeah. 47:10 Well Aaron, that was awesome talking to you. If anybody like wants to get in contact you or wants to, you know follow you on social media how they gonna do that? 47:20 If they want to yell offensive things at me Twitter's fine at Aaron Goldfarb, 47:25 also at Aaron Goldfarb and Instagram. 47:29 And you can probably figure out my email address too if you want to send me crazy tips about blends you're making or weirdo stuff going on in the secondary market that I can turn into a story and get everyone mad at me for ruining bourbon. I guess it's another thing is like, do you actually search Instagram to be like, Oh, that's interesting. Like I could write an article about that. Like, is that are there ideas that pop up like that? Yeah, like like most human beings on planet earth when I have nothing to do, I'm looking down at my phone looking at Instagram, not necessarily whiskey stores. 48:00 But there's just so many bottles out there and things so quickly become hot. You're like why is this cool guy making a big deal about something that what is this? 48:13 And I usually as Derek I say what is it? 48:17 You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, you see weird stuff on Instagram and you file it away I usually screenshot it 48:25 to pay attention to it because I'm usually looking at Instagram late at night after a few and the next day go Is that something and you know if you see it happen a few more times. Okay, now you got a trend. Let's follow this. See what's going on. But yeah, yeah, that's a good place to find stories. See if you can get inspiration from anywhere then. Anywhere just when you're in the house, the only place you can get inspiration from is your phone. 48:46 Awesome. So Aaron, thank you again for coming on the show is a pleasure to have you. Make sure you go you follow Aaron on other social media channels. You can follow bourbon pursuit as well. And we'll see you next week. Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Well for those of you that are joining us, we are here in the warrior divas real talk for real women Facebook group and we are doing our show we're adapting to our ever changing society. We are being emotionally connected in a social distancing world so Today, I am excited about the show we have for you We but before we get started, I wanted to let you know that if you're watching this in the group, you can invite other people to join us in the group to watch it. comment in the comment section, give a little like a little love. Leave one of the emoticons if we make it happy, sad or mad, any of that in the in the group. And I want to welcome our guests today and just a few moments, they're gonna let us know a little bit about themselves. And then as we go through the show, you'll get to learn a little bit more about them. As I said, I'm Angie Monroe, I am the host of the show. This show airs every Tuesday from 11am to 1pm Central Standard Time on fishbowl radio network and then you can find it starting at 3pm on all the podcast social networking sites. So if you hear something you like today or or you really want somebody else listen to that's the great way to share it. Plus, it'll be here in the group as well. So We're going to start off we've got Stacey up in the top we've got Janet Stacey wave. Janet under Stacey. We've got misty right next to Stacey to Janet and then we got cam. I don't know how it's showing up on everybody. thing. I guess mine's a little bit different. So getting yelled away. So I want y'all to we're gonna start with Stacey and kind of go in that order. So Stacy if you will, kind of give us a who you are, what your occupation is, where you're located and what you're passionate about. My name is Stacey Penny when I am the owner of Alexander medical Spa in Hurst, Texas. I'm also very involved in the Chamber of Commerce. I'm on the board of directors. I'm also on the board of directors for central arts of Bedford and Hearst. I like being involved in the community. That's one of my passions. I love helping other people. I like to be involved in charities. I also am passionate about learning. And I like to learn from other people. I like to learn from books. And I like to learn from doing. And this is my first podcast so I'm learning right now. Awesome. All right, we have Janet Janet, tell us a little bit Hey, Shay break out and dance or when I was live that and you did that sway app yesterday, didn't you? Yes, I had 500 views as people actually think I can dance that good which is really awesome. Yeah, I can't really dance that good y'all. Okay, my name is Janet Manor and I live in the middle of nowhere Kansas. I used to live in Texas and I miss you guys miss all the Texas hair and all the beauty of Texas women. And not that I don't love my Kansas ladies, but I do miss Texas and and I am retired but I still passionate about helping People, I I take a lot of phone calls and do a lot of praying for people still people call me for that a lot. And I teach a Bible study class of about 25 women every Monday night. So that's I'm really passionate about studying the Bible. I have the time, most of the time now to do it. And so a very busy life up until this point. So it's been, it's a blessing to be able to sit and sit in word and he's, we just did James Bible study. And so he's prepared us for a time as this to consider it all joy to be in this trial. That's where we are. And as women and all the people that we love and care for are going to follow our lead. You're just really that's the truth and our families. So trying to keep it all joyful here, and it's not being unrealistic, but now's the time to shine. Ladies, now's the time to shine. So absolutely, absolutely. Misty, how about you? Hi, I missed you. I'm the owner of picture perfect brows and beauty and co founder of expanded woman. And you know, I, I'm located but for Texas By the way, and I'm super passionate about people, connecting others and also just empowering other women building confidence. Those are the things and I'm very woman centric as well. So I definitely think we aligned in that way, Angie. Absolutely. So Kim, Kim get started. Marcel reviver talk about her so much, but many of y'all have not ever really officially met her. So this is Kim. Hi, Kim. I'm Kim. And I'm in Grapevine, Texas. And um, I, for a long time have been a small business owner had a graphic design business out of my house. Really Long time since 2015, I've been doing ministry and biblical counseling with women and I graduated last November with my certification to be a biblical counselor. And so, out of that, hopefully a ministry is being birthed. But, you know, God had different plans for how 2020 is gonna go so I'm just my word for the year was restart. Um, I know that I'm still very passionate about women seeing women healed, broken hearts restored, just walking in freedom and and the path that God has for them. So that's my true passion and how that shows up and what that looks like kind of ebbs and flows. As I think I'm growing and maturing in the Lord, so we'll see what he has for next. Yeah, it's interesting because without planning it tonight, we ended up with two of the ladies on the show that have helped me with my external beauty. We got misty and Stacy that have helped me with the external beauty. And then Janet and Kim have helped me with my spiritual beauty over the last several years of my life, and I tell the story about mending the soul all the time and how much I hated that class but loved that class. And Janet's the one that kind of I brought it up to her one day and she goes you're in my class period, you know it's done now I was like, Okay, what did I get myself into? So and then all that you've seen growing with divas impact the magazine The the beautiful flyers and all the thing, the logo for warrior divas all of that has been done by Kim. So pm is the previous creative genius behind all of that. So Mary, and I just get to come up with great, crazy ideas and go, Hey, friends, let's have some fun. But so, you know, Kim has been on isolation a little bit longer than the rest of us. And I'll let her share a little bit about that as we go on. But we were just talking about what is the purpose of the show? What are we wanting to do with the show? And yes, I'm not touching my face. I'm touching my hair. So don't anybody freak out about Corona on me because I'm putting my hair in my house. But, you know, our biggest thing is we want to be somebody that shines a light. So we realized that when you are socially isolated, you don't need to be emotionally isolated. And so we're going to start doing more and more things like this inside the group. Just to have a fun way Friday night, we're going to have a pajama party inside the group everybody show up, we're going to open up the zoom live thing. Let everybody jump on, we'll have a little dance party on there, we'll do a whole bunch of fun stuff inside the group. With that, just because moms and women married single with kids without kids, we all just need to blow off steam at some point, right? Ah. So part of what we're wanting to be is shine that light, we're going to do that and a lot of spiritual ways. We're going to do that in a lot of emotional ways. We're going to do that in a lot of fun ways. So Friday night will be instead of a divas night out it will be a divas night in so you will start seeing us talking about that later on this week. And we'll do one of those each week until we're set free and then we'll start having divas nights out because we'll be building relationships behind the scenes. So somebody somebody had a post up the other day, one of the single people I know was talking said, Wait a minute, you mean I actually got to talk to somebody and get to know them first before I go on a real date. So we're going to take the opportunity to get to know you and we want to talk with, you know, the girls here, I want you to realize that it's not just me in this group. There's other amazing women in this group that can leave things up and talk with you and encourage you and inspire you. And that's what we're all here to do. So this morning, I shared in the group, the john Maxwell video about leadership, and I was live streaming watch parties in this group and another group and trying to leave the notes in there and I do have the notes I'll put them in the notes in a file here inside the group from that section once I get them cleaned up to where other people can kind of interpret my notes as I typed them up, but they're still a little wonky and You know, it was great because he was speaking to leaders. Now tomorrow, he's going to be talking and tomorrow and to say he's going to be talking, turning adversity into advantage. And we're going to kind of kick that off tonight talking about what we as women are thinking and doing and feeling, and, and all of that. So what I want you to know is, we're women here, we may be sitting in a somewhat good situation. I don't know everybody's situation here. But I do know all these women, I don't know all their stories. But I do know all these women. And I do know that they are women that lead with love, they leave with graciousness, they don't lead with fear, they lead with joy. And that's why I was so excited that they joined us on the show today. So as we get going, we're going to start off with emotional health. So first off, we're going to do a temperature check of everybody on the call. So how are you Feeling what's going on? For some of us, it's day one for some of us. What, 90 Kim? Boy? So, um, you know, let's start. Let's start with Kim. Since she's been the longest Kim, how are you feeling? I you know, I'm actually feeling really good. I think that, you know, my journey started on January 2 with my quadruple bypass. So, I think I went through some emotional shock that kind of first month, like, I came home from the hospital on the fifth. And physically, I did great. But emotionally there were some really tough days. The it's not fair. This shouldn't have happened to me, like, you know, this was just completely out of nowhere and I didn't fit the profile and you Still, so, for me, it was sort of having to deal with a lot of the I'm having to come to acceptance with what is my new normal, I had to come to the fact that, you know, I don't know what my future is gonna look like and I gotta be okay with that now, you know, I don't know how this is, is gonna go it's a progressive disease. So new normal looks totally different. And then just even changing everyday habits I have to work out I have to eat completely different. And so there was a lot of that morning I can't eat a cheeseburger and my pepperoni pizza with extra cheese anymore. Took me a month and you know, but then I started discovering new foods, and I learned that I kind of did like working out and You know, you start to accept some stuff and roll your eyes when you said that can you rolled your eyes? here's the here's the funny truth is, it is like ripping teeth out to get me to start working out like getting on the treadmill. But I can tell about eight minutes in. Like, I don't know if it's the dopa mean or what happens chemically but then I start liking it and my 20 minute workout I'm noticing is going 3035 40 minutes like I'm, I actually feel good I feel better. I it's, it really is starting to shift and that was something I didn't expect at all. And then I even started lifting weights this week. And that was completely something I never thought I would be here year was restart and so in every way I've had to restart So it is kind of neat that here God sort of prepared me because I haven't been leaving the house that much I was social isolating already cuz you know you're immunocompromised and healing and and really restricted on what you can do for a while so, you know, I think the Lord was like No Let's prepare her for the corona virus apocalypse just a few months so you know that's where where I'm at I think my husband thinks I'm insane cuz I have bought enough food for the apocalypse and then even like ordering online the dog snacks and dog food so he called it the dog Apocalypse Now as they are delivering that but we're good over here in grapevine. Good Yeah, yeah. So So misty. What about you what's going on in your world I know there's you. You've been doing a lot inside our community as well to take care of the emotional health of some of our community. Yes, there's there's an organization that our chamber has called leadership hgb. And you're a part of the class this year and y'all had a big event planned. The next one, I had to get scrapped because of everything that's going on. But your group in your class just pivoted so beautifully to really attend to what's going on in our community. So I want you to talk a little bit about how it affects you, but what you've been doing to help those around us. Sure, sure. So um, yesterday, you know, worse I'm a salon and permanent makeup company. So yesterday we find out that we had to close the shut down, so Okay, no more livelihood. Don't have the option of unemployment. So, you know, there's a little bit of that fear factor, but I've really been through this whole thing kind of tapped into books and motivational podcasts and things to just kind of get my mindset, right, because you know how that goes. But I refuse to let the devil get me and let him fill me the women are so I honestly feel way more calm than I thought I would, knowing, knowing what's going on. And it helps me to help other people during this time too. So our group has put together another group that basically, we currently call it Corona virus. Press help us here AGV. So for this whole ATV area, and let me tell you a little bit about the project that we started off with. There was a mirror a wall that was painted on next to a company where some Hispanic people owned it and somebody graffiti I hate Mexicans on the wall. So our proud our program was to create a mural, which we did. And it looks amazing. The mural is the map of the HTV area. And we painted over the I hate Mexican. And it just turned out to be so beautiful. Unfortunately, we don't get to show it off yet, but we will eventually. But it is a great reminder of all the community resources that are available in the area. So our secondary thing was to have community resource fair at the same time for the mural unveiling. So instead of doing that, and on this coronavirus, hgb we took it virtual since we cannot really be together. Um, and basically we set out you know, different resources for people what's available, we set up you know, grocery updates and activity websites and all the different things that our community could come together and we made it a needs profile, so we can help those and there's another side project to where we set up little news people Paper stands and put products in there like toilet paper and toothpaste and and just some resources for people to just grab if they need it and also where people can donate goods as well. So it's been really good to help kind of take my mind off that of what's going on around me and helping others. Well, let me see what what's the HTV stand for? GPS you list Bedford? Okay. I thought much better the three cities. Yeah. So it's kind of like our little suburb area. Yeah. Yep. I just want to make sure I knew that was Sam. Yeah. And one of the one of the beautiful parts of it is if you're talking and somebody asked a question about the corona virus or different things like that, they don't want a lot of speculation in the group. One of the rules is the group is to cite your cite your source. So we just we want to make sure that we're citing our sources at all times. So that right there is huge for turning that to for what they're doing, because, you know, everybody can go out there and speculate and do random what is a conspiracy theorist? A lot of that there there is a lot of that so and I think john even said it today he goes first off if the media is your source you need to get a different source World Health Organization to you know, CDC go to places and get get it straight, quote unquote, from the horse's mouth so yeah, so Janet, what about your world? How is things going in your world? I know you've got a little space between the all the normal most of the time Yeah, well, there's still lines that are Sam's and there's still lines in our stores and people are still hoarding the toilet paper. And so I our little group, we we set up in the basement and we social distance to each other enough, but we're making masks You know, the ladies can so I can't so but we're cutting. We're doing okay. I mean, I'm so grateful for the you know, we have our phones and we can still talk and have this group and zoom and Facebook each other and FaceTime each other. I mean, what, what would we you know, I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful for that because emotionally and you know, if it all goes down, we're all gonna, it's gonna be a little more difficult, but this way we can stay connected and so I'm grateful that we have that, you know, that's really good. As far as I can see, we're a bunch of can i say i'm not going to use curse words but really a bunch of really tough American women. And that's starting to come out we have this Christian toughness I don't even know the warrior divas perfect because I just see a bunch of Lady she's got it together. You know, they, you know, people are sick people are isolated, you know, but they're still just kind of keeping it together and I'm just really proud of the people that I know in my life. I know there's other people who are struggling financially lost jobs, and they're still, you know, just carrying on helping their neighbor. It's just incredible, really incredible to watch. So I'm blessed in that regard because all I see is good stuff. That's all I see. I don't see any nonsense yet. So I'm grateful I got tickled watching the Facebook means or something the other day one of the guys goes I don't even know why we still have farmers and all that stuff. Why don't they just go to the store and buy this stuff that they want from the store? And then somebody else's if we have to, if we have to hunt for our food, I don't even know where Doritos lives. And you know, I love the tongue and cheek of it, but it's because of that tongue in cheek. I've had people reach out to me and going Hey, could you tell me how do I make mac and cheese with ah crap. You know, they need to know how to make their Is what mac and cheese they know they've got the ingredients for it they just don't know how to put it all together so you know trying to be some of those women that has some of these answers together not just mean not just you yeah but you know how to be creative and like my guests on my leading moment show on Thursday said he goes Guess what? He goes the store still have plenty of fresh fruit and vegetables on the shelves, because everybody's buying all the junk food all the company. Now don't eat junk food. You can. Yeah, and then another thing he brought up that misty I was going to tell you might be I'll send you a picture for it. That might be a good thing to post in your group was if it's got the wick symbol on it, that the women and children that are eating off of that wick that's only the only cheese and milk and eggs and things that they can buy cereal that they can buy. So if you have a choice, choose something other than that, but don't wipe Yeah, the witnesses are limited. That sounds like that is just huge. So I've been repeating that and shouting that as often as I can. So I just I took a picture of one of the wick signs the other day and said we need to post about this and I have it That's good. So I'll send you the picture lets you post about it and then I'll share it in post about it too. So all right, Stacy. So you're kind of in the same boat that misty is in yesterday, six o'clock and a face to face interaction. And then you know, what, what are you going to be doing? How are you emotionally handling this pivot? Well, I had already made the decision on Thursday or Friday that I was going to close before before we were closed. Because I have employees that have children. I'm all of them. But most of my people because I'm an anti aging are older. They shouldn't be coming to see me. Some of them are secret still mentioned He's messaging me, Hey, I'm working from home, can you can you get that treatment done to my eyes and we won't tell anybody, you know, just show up at the office. I still have that going on, because people want still want to get their stuff done. But I mean, I'm a mom and I have four children, I really don't need to get sick, what are they gonna do without me. And in the grand scheme of things, I have a roof over my head, I have food, even if my my business falls apart, which it won't. And I need to be here for my kids and my family. They're the most important thing. So I had already chosen, but I have gone through many different emotions throughout the last couple of weeks. I was kind of in the know about certain things beforehand because my brother works for a city and he's in a director position. So he was telling me about closed downs before they were starting to be announced. And so I was wearing before everybody else and I feel good right now I feel the things that I feel are like, I'm excited that I'm going to get to see my kids. I'm a working mom. I'm a mom that has owned a business for almost 20 years. So I have been busy. This whole time. My kids don't see me as much as some other moms get to get to see their kids. My kids are very what they were asking yesterday, where are you home so early? You know, why did you What's going on? Why is mom here? And so I'm anxious to see what it's going to be like when I'm here the entire week with him because, you know, they, they don't they only have that when I'm on vacation. I'm anxious to see I'm anxious to cook food. You know, I because I own a spa. I come home later. So sometimes a lot of times our food is you know what Costco made that my husband gets put in the oven before I got here. So I'm excited about getting to make some things and getting to do some art projects. That's what I'm Putting my focus in. Now I know, I have a list of things that I can get done remotely, to move my business forward. But every time I think about my list, I also think about, I know that I'm going to be okay. What can I do to help people that are probably not going to be okay? Yeah, that's good. There's so many people that work in a restaurant that are paycheck to paycheck. You know, I have a business savings account. I can cover my bills for a while. at my office. My husband works from home. He we're not going to lose any income from him at all. So what can I do to help other people? That's what I've been thinking about. Yeah. But I, I mean, I'm my, my biggest fear is, I don't know how to not be busy. I know I was thinking the same thing. I think how do I think that problem So maybe I can figure out how to be busy doing more things that are fun. The other thing that I think all of us are going to figure out how to be busy at home organizing and whatever else we can think of. We should people like me and Missy who take care of people all day long. We don't take care of ourselves as much. Right? So we should probably think about doing some self care. Mm hmm. Already on that? Yeah. Are you? Mm hmm. No, I watched your list. I can say I can tell you that. I used to be super busy. And I'm not super busy. Now. As much as I was when I lived in Texas. Also, I've had six months of my husband being retired at home. How's that? Because I'm worried about two weeks in with my husband. And there is an adjustment and he's a I'm married to a really nice man. It's still an adjustment. So you will have those moments, right, honestly. And I just say, I'm gonna go in my room and be by myself, you know, I just take that time, but you learn to do other things when you're not busy working or taking care of kids, like, I still help with my grandkids too. So, you know, I'm trying to do art projects and find things. I mean, I've already raised my kids and I'm having to rethink how do I do all this care at home for these kids. And so, but the business that you have when you're outside working versus coming home, I will say it's an adjustment but you're you guys are creative women, and you're hard working and so you're going to find things to fill your time you think, Oh, I'm gonna retired and I'm not gonna be as busy. That's not true. You just find different things to do because you're productive and because you like helping and because you like doing, you will find other things to do. I mean, that's just, it's God's good that way. He does give us other things and God help us all might instead of hit water, you might have to have some wine and let's be honest Vodka, I'm just kidding. Really. wine, take yourself, take your bath. But you know, God's gonna give you what you need when you need it. I mean, it's amazing. So you think I'm gonna have all this free time no other people are gonna come and look to you for things they're gonna call you. They call you and come to you because they know they can't. And they know you're going to answer they know you're going to cry with them when they cry, and you're gonna laugh when they laugh. And they know that if they call you you'll answer Now, I'm not saying being emotionally available for everybody all the time, but you find new things to do is I guess the point, you know, and and what you said God will find what you need when you need it. So the past probably three or four months, I've been training a new employee and then my employee of nine or 10 years is moving on and it's been really difficult. I've been working six, seven days a week, so maybe this is what I needed. Trying to stay home a little. I think the Lord, the Lord's just sending an adjustment, you know, we've been prepared for this time, as a time we're all prepared for this time we've been placed here. It's not a coincidence that we're all women and Esther's at this time. And you know, you'll find your inner Esther, and you'll, you know, God's gonna put people in front of us, and he's going to give us what we need when we need it. And even if you're a single mom, and you ask for help, just ask for help, because this older ladies are willing to, you know, even if, you know, we, we can watch them on a park bench. We don't have to, we don't have to be in the same room with them. But we can actually watch a kid for an hour or whatever. I mean, you can do that outside. We don't you can, you know, you can do that. So that'll work. Well. And I think another thing that a lot of people don't think about is because we have had this happen in the middle of all the social technology we have you're really not as alone as you could have been. So we have a lot of resources to reach out to talk to ask questions. And you can do it in private message, you can do it over email, you can do it on a Facebook post, whatever it is. And we met I went to a event last fall, where they talked about it was last fall last summer sometime where they were talking about abusive relationships. And I'm going to bring it up during this part because we're about shifting to family dynamics. And, you know, I'm married to a great guy. We've been in business together for seven years. I had my own business before that, but he's had his plumbing business for seven years. So we've worked together. So being home alone together hasn't really sunk into us. And he's part of the essential forces so it he probably won't be home as much as some of the other ones. But on the other side of it, there are women that are trapped at home. home with their monster, there are children that are trapped at home with their monster. So my my point to all this is, is if you're a woman, and you're listening to this, and you're trapped in a situation like that, we are the women that are saying, you can reach out to us, we are the Oregon, saying you can reach out to us. We want you to get stronger. We want to help you get a plan together, we want to get you out of that situation. We will pull all of our resources together to help with that. But we have to know that's what you're involved in and what's what's going on. And we don't want to put you in a date a more dangerous situation while you're trying to get out of that situation. So we will help find ways to do that safely for you and everyone involved. So, again, that's a little side note, but I feel it's important because when we start talking a lot down, you know, that's, I mean holidays is when domestic violence calls go up. It's just Police statistics statistics see YouTube can be a professional speaker. It is a real life statistic that that's when they go up. So it's it's something that I'm not hearing any of the media talk about or any of the police departments talk about. I'm hearing about the police departments being exposed to things and police forces dwindling because of all this. So therefore, it behooves us as warrior divas to do what we can and do our part and be that resource for women. So Alright, so we're going to talk about families you know, we're kind of almost empty nesters. Now, every time we think we're empty nester, one bounce back. I don't know what it is for Allie and cannon and the twins live a little bit down the road but they were here yesterday and they and today doing laundry because their washer and dryers best. It's so kicked them all out of the house before we got on the call tonight and then set myself to a shop to do some what we call arts and crafts time. So mainly I just need a girl time. We all need Girl. Girl time we all get it. How are you? How are you planning to balance the family time with your work time or with your own? Your own sanity? Like Janet hiding in a closet. No, no. So who wants to go first on that one? Don't everybody speak it? Well, I will. And I don't really have I decided since today was my first like real day off in the quarantine and that I was gonna relax today and just enjoy the day with my family. And you know, we ran real quick to the salon. I grabbed all the essentials that I could do self care on myself. So when it's not podcasting I'm gonna do some micro needling and you know things to make myself feel better and look better to, why not? before you make before you make decisions, make sure we talk about the other procedures that we need to do because we need to put them in. Okay? Put them in the calendar. That's where I was going with this is I'm going to kind of create, you know, a plan each day, I'm like, we're gonna work out we're gonna, all those things I'm not doing right now. That's what we're getting. And I would really like to take the time, like even a family workout and you know, spend some more time doing yoga, which I haven't done in a really long time, but I enjoy. So and I get to do more cooking because I'd actually like cooking for my family and things like that. So all of those are, I'm kind of excited. I told my my kids yesterday, I was like, Hey, guys, I'm gonna be home for like, at least three weeks, you know, probably. And my younger son was like, yeah, you know, he really misses me but my older one is He's like, he could care less to be honest. He's like, I'm in my room playing video games with everyone else. So it's pretty much the same dynamic. I have a feeling that my, my spouse will be probably quarantined as of Monday I'm thinking because he works in Dallas County. And they've, you know, done the whole, what is it, um, shelter you have to stay in your, in your house, basically. So, um, I have a feeling they'll be closed on Monday. So then he'll be home and we're not used to seeing each other all the time, even though I love him and adore him. And we're probably gonna have to keep our space social distancing to know. Like you do your thing and go play watch your car shows and I'll go do my thing and work for a little bit. Because I plan on not stop working. I do have things in place for that. So maybe spend a few times a few hours a day working and a few few hours a day spending extra time with my family. The new normal right the new normal Yeah. Yeah. Well Scott actually started working from home last week. So with me being immunocompromised he had got special permission to already work from home once this kind of started blowing up the week before so um, we've had a week now to adjust and so I have you know, my office downstairs, we set him up, his office is upstairs and with the door he can shut and it's gone real well except, you know, the 10 year old who doesn't understand that you know, she's used to when Daddy's home he's played ad so he's fun dad. So he getting her to understand that daddy's actually working eight to five, Monday through Friday and and what those boundaries are kinda look at I think it's been a harder adjustment on Avery than it actually has. Me and Scott to be honest with you, um, one thing I thought was funny in our world is trying to leave God outside if it's sunny we we've gone for walks, we walked three days last week, we went outside and walked, walked to the park, trying to let her play and be a kid. You know, everyone's gone home school crazy. And we just decided, you know, she's gonna learn if she's not missing anything. You know, we did a couple of things, but we just sort of let her be at home and learn how to FaceTime friends like this, this whole environments different for her and I think it's harder on a nine year old, who's used to that consistent schedule. If I get up I go to school. I'm at school till this time and then I have my activities and then boom, it's like spring break, and then everything she does got canceled. So for us, I think it was just letting her have a week to just downshift and deal with that emotional impact without dumping. Now learn. Honor, you know, so I think this week will be an interesting week and how do we now sort of bring in to all this mix the homeschool thing and make sure she doesn't fall too behind? And I just don't intend on being too overbearing about it. And maybe I'm maybe I'm weird that way, but I figured she's ahead. She's smart. Let her just kind of enjoy what she can and do. I mean, do the things they're going to ask you to do but i'm not i'm just not I always said I was arts and crafts. Mom, not school mom. So, you know, like who which one of us can even teach Common Core math. Let's just be honest about that. Like, I can't. So there's only gonna be so much as a mom, I can do anyway because I know. I'm not trained as an educator. So I feel like you guys need to quit coughing I'm getting nervous now. Far away. We're social distance. We're good. All right. Yeah. Well, well, Stacy, what about your kids? You've got school aged kids as well. How are they have they hasn't even hit them yet that they don't have school. And yes, let me talk. You know, I have two sets of kids. So I have a kid that's 29 and 19. And then I have kids that are nine and eight. So and I'm still a mom to both sets. It's a kind of separate though, because the two the 29 and the 19 year old just moved in together in a tent. To an apartment in Bedford, they really like it. And so like I've been helping them I was there yesterday still unboxing stuff. They've been there a month but they have some boxes that they still haven't unlocked. And one of them I will not say which one was waiting for mommy to come by and not the younger one to help him get his stuff on. I mean I'm still momming them I'm still I'm telling them to stay home I brought some masks and some gloves and some Lysol to their apartment yesterday. It's two boys. So having to be mom still mom them even though they're older without being overbearing, and they have been staying home though I'm so excited for them. Because usually they don't listen. And I I kind of taught them the things that they need to do for cleaning. And if they do have to go somewhere like you're not supposed, like even touching the thing when you're done. Getting gas, you really shouldn't be touching that you need to put so that's why I bought brought them some gloves, throw the gloves away after you get your gas before you get in your car. So I have that situation. And then here at my house I have my two girls that are nine, about to be nine and eight and set I'm sorry, eight and seven right now. They have for the entire week. They have been doing homeschool. But kind of haphazardly, you know. They've been doing prodigy and Adventure Time and ABC mouse. But starting tomorrow, they go to a charter school international leadership of Texas. They're actually going to be doing the zoom meetings and they're with their teachers. And we had to do all the technology today. They both they both their school was giving out Chromebooks to the students that don't already have them. We have Chromebooks. They we got them for cursive missed last year. My husband's in it. He thought they needed to learn how to use a mouse. So he bought them Chromebooks. And so they're going to start their zoom meetings. I'm worried about my eight year old because she's dyslexic. And she really needs some extra care. But her dyslexic teacher is going to be on zoom meetings with her too. So I'm excited to see how it's gonna happen because I know it's a new normal for them, too. They have this charter school has 20 schools throughout Texas. So they're doing the zoom meetings with all the schools at the same time. I'm wondering how smooth it's going to do the first day we'll see. And I'm still going to be doing some work also. I'm still going to be on my computer. I have an internship program that I'm working on for the Chamber of Commerce. And then recently, we still have right you can we have time to work on that missing. And then Angie and I are also we are on the leadership Alumni Association, the same leadership class that misty is currently in. Angie and I have already been through the leadership program. And we are on this leadership, steering leadership alumni steering committee. So we're going to try to help put social media together helps steer our alumni helps steer our alumni, we can make sure that our alumni stay still engaged in the chamber after they've gone through leadership. We want our alumni to be leaders in the community. We want our alumni to be part of boards, board of directors in hcb area, and we want them to be the leader. So Angie and I are trying to figure out how to still work on that. A little foreign to them and and challenge them both a little bit. And so I'm going to be working on that and then I like I said, I don't know what I'm going to be doing here. busy. I don't I'm going to keep myself busy doing things I'm not sure how it's gonna go. It's It's my mind is like, do I set up a whole plan of all of these art projects that we're going to get done? Do I cook like so many meals? I haven't decided which things I want to be busy doing. I know. I'm going to figure out how to be busy though. Oh, yeah, yeah, I think we all figure that out really easily, don't we? Yeah, yes. What about you, Misty? Oh, how to how to figure out how to not be busy. Well, what about the kids? What are they doing and shifting through right now? How are they? How are they still on spring break. So they really are, and Burnsville has not figured out what they're doing yet. They're trying Monday, we're supposed to pick up Chromebooks for those who don't have access to social media or like tablets or internet and that type of thing. So we're we're just waiting for them to give us more direction. Right now they're just having a free for all to be honest with you. They're playing video games are eating all the snacks you know that a house in the home that have a 12 year old and a 17 year old boy and then a seven year old stepdaughter so she's here this weekend hanging out with us and that's really cool because normally we don't get to have her all weekend we only get to have our own Sundays and one one night during the week so this will be some extra time we can all spend with her too. Also, I just signed up enough to do the snap ology Lego daily challenge. You seen those but so he made the pirate ship today with his Lego so those are things trying to keep him busy, but they're bored already. I think. Yeah. Well Janet, you're kind of like me, you you've kind of moved on from the little kids at home but you also have grandkids that are around and I know I know Alyssa was doing homeschooling so but Alyssa is also expecting to So that's how I'm a baby in about eight weeks. Yeah, so you're gonna be probably doing some pitch hitting won't Yeah. So yeah, it's it's that new that grandma role which I have adult children, that's still the mean, which I can totally relate to. which is way, way more than I thought it would ever be. It's kind of interesting, but I will say it's just a blessing to have grandkids and we're expecting a new baby boy and I've been able to hear somebody come in here now that I'm talking about these grandkids. And I'm surprised they haven't come in yet. Honestly, I am too hot. And so I don't know. We're finding new things to do. I'm, I'm stealing all the ideas on Facebook and people are putting so many amazing ideas out there. We're doing all that we're just praying for some warm weather. So we can kind of get outside here in Kansas. It's still really cold. We have one nice day and then we have three or four bad days. So I'm waiting for that. But I think getting outside helps you guys. We're not we can get outside, we're allowed to go outside. It's like you can't get outside. I think sort of everybody doing the electronics, take a walk, do something get outside, it's healthy and mentally. And I know one of the small towns here, they were putting the bear the stuffed bears in the windows so that people could go around and find the bears the little kids, find the bears. But find something to do, you know, go on a scavenger hunt, and give them a list of things to go outside. outside. Is that your best bet for a while even if it's cold go outside. I mean, that's, we've missed having our kids outside, they're in school all day. You know, they go do things all day. Now you have an opportunity to kind of reset, like kimsey word, you know, reset, it was a reset, that we use that restart. We said, yeah. Yeah, we had to reset after 911 and we survived all that economically. And we you know, we lost a A lot of stuff after 911 My husband was a pilot that got, you know, furloughed and, you know, this too will all pass but go outside. I mean, family wise, mentally wise, you know, do something outside and you know, the sunshine is good for you the virus dies at 180 degrees I don't know. Right? It's vitamin D and vitamin C are anti viral and so mentally get out some put it on your list to go outside every day and take a walk, do what you have to do, but get them outside. I think it's important. Well, part of the arts and crafts Mike's doing is I bought a boat last summer that's my boat. It's not his boat. It's my boat. It's it can be ours but it's my boat. And so he was just doing some of the last minute touches to make sure it was boat ready because that's one thing we can do. We can go out on the lake we can go in that's socially distances you from quite a few people just being out on the lake. One of the other things that I'm glad you brought up the 911 thing because I've been thinking a lot about that this week. You know, there's a our kids Janet's and my kids and they see you've got one up there too. They were born. And they were in school when 911 happened, you know, so they, Janet and I have children that serve in our country and And me too. I'm a part of a military moms group that has paratroopers that are coming back to the states that are going straight into quarantine. They're not getting the big welcome home. They're not getting all of the pomp and circumstance that goes on with that they're going here's a tent and they're like, I just came from a tent. So the ones that go through the tent, they they're, they're putting them into isolation, barracks and things like that. But you know, Cody, my son is supposed To be leaving the country at some point this week, I was supposed to be in Orlando from Friday until this following this coming Friday, from last Friday till this coming Friday. And then I was going over to spend time with Cody at his duty station before he left the country for six months. And so I had to change tickets. And as I'm changing the tickets, I'm already having the emotions well up about 911. I came out of nowhere. And when the when the planes stopped flying, I didn't sleep for those three days. Because I was I've grown up in ulis. I'm so used to hearing the planes fly, that when the planes weren't flying, it was eerily deafening to me. Yeah, so when the first pilot took off from DFW Airport, I was one of them out there with the guy that had the big American flag and we were listening to the air traffic controllers, talk to the pilots and send them off. And, and so we knew when that happened that our world was forever changed. And we're already we've we immediately saw changes in how security was done and how things were handled security on the cockpit doors, TSA, all of that immediately changed. And one of my friends that's a writer and manages a lot of freelance writers for Thomas Nelson publishing, put out a suggestion the other day to start making notes of the things that you see that may be changing. And I thought that was a really good thing. So in the industry, you're in, in the in your child's life, what was something that was so normal, a week, a month last year, that is either not going to be around or something abnormal. Moving forward, we've been talking about putting Chromebooks and students hands in every student having a laptop or a tablet for years. And it takes a crisis like this to realize that we should have stopped talking about it and just done it. You know, so what does that look like? What are some of the things? I'm going to throw out? One of the things that I thought that I've already thought of with universal pushing movies straight to DVD, I mean, not DVD but DVR, straight to the streaming services, there may not be a major need for theaters anymore. Big Box theaters, wow. At least a drastically reduced number of them. So what's something that you can look at that you're looking at now and you can start thinking maybe it's going to shift medical supplies. Right now China makes most of our medical supplies and I was told by someone who their company, she's a salesperson for the company that that supplies hospitals. And before like, she was telling me Probably, I don't know, a month and a half two months ago. Make sure you buy all the needles that you're going to need for the next year by all the gloves you're going to need for the next year. She said, we're not even telling our hospitals this yet. But there's one ship coming from China right now full of medical supplies, and that's the last one for a while. She said it, it's going to be changed for an entire year. And because they're not working, they're not able to work. They're not making medical supplies. And so now we see here, we are incredibly dependent on China. medical supplies also they they do a lot of our medication too. They do a lot of our What is it called? The one that is not the brand name. Generic Jay did a lot of our generics. And we might run out of certain medications because they do a lot of our generics. They make most of our Tylenol Not the time, like the generic Tylenol, they make most of our generic generic Tylenol. So what I see 85% of her antibiotics, right? So like, we change that, hopefully we change it, we learned the hard lesson and we change it now, well, then I was thinking ramp up, you know, we just ramp up and we do what we do. You know, hopefully that's gonna happen. Well, and we the, the other issue is, are we willing to pay more for it, because the labor in China is much cheaper. And if we make it here, we're going to have to pay our workers enough. So that we can, it will have to pay a little bit more for it because we have to pay our workers so that they can live in the United States. So that's an issue. But I think that we were as a country, we're going to have to look at all the things that were dependent on other countries, and we're going to have to see what we can do to not have this happen to us again. Yeah, Misty Kim. What do y'all have to say? Something that Scott and I were talking about is how, like we had never done online grocery shopping. Like you know, I buy stuff from Amazon but I'm talking about like, ordering your food from like imperfect foods calm or like ordering all your meat from Purdue farms.com like changing the way you grocery shop like we have had, cuz I'm immunocompromised and it's not good for us to get out at all. I'm in that super, super crazy high risk group. So we've been having delivery, delivering all our groceries and like today, we got an email from one service saying that they've had to suspend new members because they're so overloaded right now with new people and I'm thinking wow, this this could come pletely change the grocery store industry because we're so used to going out to the grocery store to get stuff and how many of us will come to realize that we like having stuff delivered on Friday because I go so far, I think it's great. It's not much more money than you know, going to the grocery store. And it's super convenient to order your groceries over three days, and then wham, it shows up at your door. So that was one thing we really thought about how this could really just be a societal change of just like people ordering groceries online, and then maybe there won't be a storefront on every corner the way you see now. Yeah, I think Walmart pickup is the best thing ever invented. Yeah, I love it. Well, like even before, if you haven't done that you need to start. No way. Don't Well in our neighborhood, we live in a older established neighborhood. And it was built when the in the 60s when people were coming in building the airport here, so a lot of pilots and air traffic controllers and things live in our neighborhood. And on our street. There's like three of us that are new newly to the neighborhood. The rest are all original homeowners. So it's it's an older generation and older demographic. And they've kind of gotten into the Facebook group and mastered that Facebook group but some of them are starting to get out there and master that online ordering. It's challenging them to be technology savvy right now. But the beautiful part is is those that are younger in the neighborhood that are going to the stores will say, I'm going to go to the store on Friday. If you have a pickup, put my name down, I'll pick it up for you still keeping some of our older neighborhood neighbors from going out into getting getting out and Not being where they don't need to be so it's really interesting then you talked about the bear thing the other day while ago we did the Shamrock challenge in our neighborhood for a scavenger hunt. And then we we started seeing the kids doing the chalk art out on the on the driveways sending positive messages to people. So you know, it's it's finding different things. Missy What do you think about you anything you can think of that shifting or changing that? Well, I see to like two sides of it, you know, you see the people that are kind of going crazy and taking advantage of the situation but then I also see more people being kind and you know, thinking of others before themselves and like the you know, compromised or the older people that they can they can help them you know, and even yesterday I had made a video on Facebook just letting everybody know I had to close down and you know that we'll be back and and you know Kind of reassuring them, but I got more reassurance for myself is like yes, you will be back and you're going to be stronger than ever. So just that support of people is just pretty amazing. I really have found that and I think it was always there but people are so busy. Yeah, that we don't take the time to share that stuff. So good, positive, that's a good positive thing. You know, if we just come back together, we were divided in a nation, maybe we'll come back together a little bit more. Seems like in times of crisis, that's what we do. Right? And I'm just do you remember after 911? After how, one day, the next day everyone had a flag out? Right? Everyone had a flag out, come together. Everyone was coming together. And maybe that's what is gonna happen right now. Because I'm seeing a lot of people want to do things for others more than ever. Well, and we're seeing we're seeing bipartisanship. up like we've never seen since 99. I mean, we're seeing a lot of things. They may not agree on a lot of the other things still, but they're putting that to the side, they're pushing all that to the side to be able to take care of a nation right now. And the the beautiful part is what I'm seeing on social media is, like you said, people are sharing positive encouraging messages to people. Especially when they see that they've got the resiliency to come back. You know, there's, there's, there's a few people that I know of that have gotten on Facebook and light of messages of what's happening in their area and stuff. And they're blasting you know, and you can tell they're angry and they're bitter and they're in there getting all it'll be okay or it's happening to everybody. You know, you're not in this alone and they're they're getting better back. It's, I guess the beauty thing I want to remind people is in times of crisis is when your squeeze I can't remember if john said or one of the other people said that the virtual thing that I shared with you all today, those sessions with john, he allowed us to share publicly. But behind that we've got all the other trainers that are part of the organization doing live videos with us all day long for the next three days. So I've been watching a bunch of videos live this week. But one of the things I said is when you're squeezed in a time of crisis, what's inside of you is going to come out and so you're getting on and good or bad. Yeah, good or bad. It's coming out. And the What are you made of? Are you made of a I'm defeated? This happened to me mentality Are you made of a you know, pull your bootstraps up Rosie the Riveter we can do it type mentality. And, you know, I'm a Rosie the Riveter lover. So yeah. You know, I'm one of those that I don't think this happens to us. I think we find ways to reinvent ourselves in and reestablish ourselves and we find times during this time to, to be leaders in that dark world we shine that light, we say, you know, you may not feel like you've got a safe place to go. I've got a wing right here. You can take shelter here and bit here a little bit. I'm going to push you out of this nest because you are going to fly even if you have to grow your wings on the way down. You are going to fly you know. And that's, that's what I get from the strong women. I surround myself and all four of you are the strong women I've surrounded myself. Janet has said it to me before there was tell somebody, what was it a while back. The when the twins were born, they just turned what six, so six years ago, I was kinda in the middle of it. I was Sleepless in Seattle or Bedford or her Wherever I was, I was, you know, brain numb. And I think Kim might be able to relate to this a little bit to it. I didn't know enough to reach out and ask for help at that time, because I was just doing what was in front of me. Yeah. And Janet said, you know, I've told she told me flat, because I've told you before, and I'll tell you again, all you have to do is ask for help, and help will be there. But I was still in my own mind of will these people relying on me, so I have to be the stopping point. I'm not the stopping point. I'm a flow through point. Yeah, that's good. We have to be reminded that we are a flow through point of the Holy Spirit of our love of what we fill ourselves with so that we can flow out to those that we are feeding and and loving and nurturing. And we can't nurture something if we are not in a nurturing mindset. It's so I used to imagine that A bunch of people that walk around those little squeezy stress balls, eyes and the ears pop. Like everybody is this Yeah. Yeah, you know, even me, I know I I've touched him with cam quite a bit right when she first got home I went and spent days there and stuff like that. But then even this week I went, Oh my god, it's been a week since we've texted What is going on? Why has she not reached out to me? Is everything okay? And her well, why haven't we gone to? Lee? I'm like, Okay, first off, am I being a bad friend? Am I this? Yeah. But I have to put all those negative things are behind and not say Well, I didn't talk to her this past week. She's probably mad at me because then those mental games will play and then you won't reach out and then you're emotionally distancing and isolating. And they're over there. Just going. No, thanks. It's been good. I was wondering where you're at. I just knew you'd circle around when you weren't busy again. And I was here like, Oh, well. How many I know I'm not the only one that has ever done this? Because I have heard other women tell me this. So, um, you know, as we're talking through some of the some of these, you know, I want to start looking at what are some of the best you have seen in people through this. This scenario, we talked a little bit about how our jobs are changing through all of this already. But you know, what, what are some of the best the most positive things that you've seen in people? Through this? We were What was it? Stacy, we were on a call the other day for the leadership alumni. And, you know, we've got some people on our steering committee who were on the front lines of this and they're just exhausted, right? When they're being told and I'm not saying who they are, where they're from, but when they're being told to pack a bag to bring to work because they don't know if they'll be able to go home. Right. You know, And this is just the beginning of what we're expecting to be a bigger surge and you know, so you know, what are some ways that you could you see positive coming out of it? I know there's other people that are what is it one groups donating every you can go on and put your beer order in. But if you put throw in an extra beer, a four pack or a six pack to your order and donate it to the Fort Bragg soldiers that are coming. That's hilarious. I'm like, okay, that's funny. But you know, what, what are some? What are some of the other things that you you're seeing and hearing? One of the one of the things that I thought was awesome, is we talked about it earlier is when our leadership htb, pivoted, and decided that they wanted to start a group to help the HIV community by posting the things that are most needed. And nobody told them they had to do that. Nobody told them that since their event was called closed down that they had to pivot, they just made a choice. And that's what happens whenever you start building leaders is they lead and that's what they did. So the first thing that I did when I was probably the seventh person invited in the group, and if you guys don't know, I am the, the sponsor of that group. So yes, I am the sponsor of leadership. So she's, she's a black, so I'm like, no, no. So I'm like, when I when I look at it, when I see them doing such great things, I get very excited because I'm invested into it right now. I get so excited about creating leaders and when whenever I get to help, and this is what they decide to do, I'm excited. So I was like, almost in tears, like, Oh, my God, look what, look what they're doing. And I immediately started texting. Rochelle Ross, who is the steering committee leader and said, Oh my god, do you see what they're doing? Like, this is great. Do you see What your Do you see what your what your teaching is making happen in our community? So that that's one of the biggest things that I've seen. And, you know, the last time I looked, I don't know how many people you have in the group now, but there was almost 1000 people in the group when I was blessed. Let me check Where's like under there was like, yeah, there was one I was looking it up 1.4. Okay, so what I mean, that's awesome. All of these people that all live in the HDB area, are able to look and they haven't categorized it into sections. So you can see restaurants you can see this you can see where you can get food, if you don't have food. You can see what food pantries are still are still giving you food. I mean, I just thought that that was so awesome. So that was one of the great things and if you look at the feeds inside the group, people that know nothing of what hcb leadership is are talking discussing. I invited one of my clients to the group who's been living in hers for like 30 years and she was very She posted something and she she got into message. Did you see how great my posts and to see all the people that were? So I mean, it's bringing people together. I thought that that was really awesome. And then and then I also see, like everyone is really trying to go to these mom and pop restaurants and buy food to go local. So I really love that I'm doing it also. But I think that that's great. Those are the things that I've noticed. Yeah. Here's another thing. You know, there's a lot of us who have diabetes, there's a lot of us who have high blood pressure. There's a lot of us who have asthma, those underlying health conditions that make getting the corona virus, you know, more dangerous for, you know, it's going to be more than a cold it could go wonky real quick. So what I've seen is just even after two months of friends and church ladies and just people rallying around my family through the heart stuff you know we didn't want for a meal for about eight weeks. Um we had more food and we knew what to do with we had friends cleaning our house take down our Christmas decorations. I mean you name it it was we had handyman come over and help Scott with cocking a tub. I mean, just you name it, it was done. And those same people now who know that I'm immunocompromised are texting me. Hey, I'm going to Costco. Hey, I have a friend run into Sam's Can I drop food off at your front door. So I just think seeing how humans are so generous. And kind and sweet and people are sending me, you know, we're still sending you extra prayers during this time. Just even that is just so touching and and you know, it just got me thinking, How can I reach out no knowing I'm stuck at home so now I'm with food delivery service. I've texted my neighbors and I'm like, Hey, we're having food delivered on Friday. I'm placing an order this day. Do you guys need me to order you guys anything so trying to help in the way I can. But just if you're able and be mindful of your friends who might be having to isolate more that just even going to a grocery store puts them at risk, right? Because I can't really leave the house at this point then, you know, my husband is stuck and because if he goes out and gets it and brings it in. So being mindful of the immuno compromised and how just if you're going to the store check in, or if a neighbor has run out of toilet paper or needs eggs, be willing to go put it at their front door, just be mindful of that stuff. And I've just seen it in spades more than I can even say, we have felt so blessed and just seeing God's goodness through human beings in such ways I never expected over these last couple of months. Well, and that goes back to those boxes that you're putting out to missing because you know, there's some people that may never ask for help or want to go to a place and get help but that they can go open that box nonchalantly get out what they need are, you know, I had somebody what say, Well, I only had some beans. So I went and put the beans in the box and I grabbed the the whatever Else it was that they needed, you know, and I was like, well, that's awesome that that what you needed was in that box, you know, and maybe somebody else needed those beans, you know. So finding a way to love on people where they're at, you know, with whatever skills or talents you have. Janet, I'm gonna come to you next, but I'm going to preface it with this because on Monday, we were hearing a lot of people, Mike's one of Mike's friends from high school took one of those blue rolls of paper towels, and he is he makes knives, homemade knives. And so he cut one of those rolls in half and he goes, look, I'm making toilet paper, you know? And Mike's like, Yeah, go ahead and do that. Because, you know, once they start flushing that down the drains it's

Michael Myers sits down to tell us his story of starting Distillery 291. He had a booming photography career, but while living in NY during the events of 9/11, it made him want something else. He found out early on that he liked whiskey, so like most of us who start off with something new, he researched and used his skills from a past farm life to make it a reality. Michael actually built his very first still on a tight budget and ended up using some of his photography equipment to create the still. From these humble beginnings, his whiskey has gone off to win many different awards and they are now expanding even further, creating a whiskey that is Aspen stave finished and authentic to Colorado. Show Partners: The University of Louisville has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at uofl.me/bourbonpursuit. In 2013, Joe Beatrice launched Barrell Craft Spirits without a distillery or defied conventional wisdom. To this day, his team sources and blends exceptional barrels from established producers and bottles at cask strength. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com. Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Distillery 291 is an award winning, small batch whiskey distillery located in Colorado Springs, Colorado. Learn more at Distillery291.com. Show Notes: Maker's Mark Solar Panels: https://www.wlky.com/article/makers-mark-now-powering-rickhouses-with-help-of-500-solar-panels/31017612 Beverage Daily Article: https://www.beveragedaily.com/Article/2020/02/17/Alcohol-s-three-tier-system-slows-ecommerce-and-dates-the-industry Why Does Whiskey Taste Like Whiskey: https://www.thedailybeast.com/why-does-whiskey-taste-like-whiskey-an-excerpt-from-lew-brysons-new-book-whiskey-master-class Rate Our Podcast: https://ratethispodcast.com/bourbon This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about blended whiskey. When were you first introduced to bourbon? Where are you from? How long where you in Savannah? Let's talk about your background in photography. Which more enjoyable, photography or whiskey making? Tell us about your experience with 9/11. How were your first attempts at making whiskey? Did you lean on any outside consultants? Tell us about building and designing your still. How much did it cost to build your still? What was your end goal when you first started? Tell us about your barrels. What was going through your mind when you first started? Did your photography career fund the whiskey business? Tell us about your awards. What is the operation like today? Was it daunting coming to Kentucky with your bourbon? Did you experience growing pains? What do you want our listeners to leave with about 291? 0:00 To be the best you have to learn from the best local in the surrounding regions are home to many of the most storied companies and innovative startups in the distilled spirits industry. And there's no better place to learn the business of the distilled spirits industry. Then from a university located in its Epicenter, the University of Louisville has partnered with industry experts to offer the distilled spirits business certificate, a six course program designed to accelerate your success in this booming industry. Oh, it's all online. get signed up to make your next career move at U of l.me slash bourbon pursuit. 0:36 Michael Myers Michael Michael Myers got it. 0:40 We didn't want to say anything but I'm sure you get all the time people like Michael Myers especially down like Halloween coming up and studly yo Yeah, never 0:48 your 0:50 damn life. 0:52 And my first name is Jason. Believe it or not, he shouldn't be though. Oh my gosh. 1:07 This is Episode 242 of bourbon pursuit. I'm Kenny. And if you're ready for your bourbon whiskey and overall spirits news, it's about time we get to it. According to the US securities regulation charges in its 2014 and 2015 fiscal years biagio North America pressure distributors to buy excess inventory in order to meet internal sales targets in the face of declining markets, and now is hit with a $5 million dollar fine from the SEC, johnnie Walker's owner Diaz you failed to disclose the excess stocks to investors creating a misleading impression that the audio and the audio North America were able to achieve their sales targets through normal customer man according to the SEC. Now without admitting or denying the SEC findings, Dr. Gao has agreed to pay a $5 million penalty and agreed to cease and desist from any further 2:00 violations. The SEC has accepted the offer. Lexapro distillers is paying homage to the past by relaunching an old bourbon. The Davis county Kentucky straight bourbon is being released in three varieties. The Nashville is a mix of weeded bourbon and rye mash Bill said it liver a sweet and spicy taste. There will be the original a Cabernet Sauvignon finish in a French oak finish. Davis county distilling company was the first to release the bourbon, and the brand dates back to 1874 and was one of the few distilleries to survive prohibition. 2:34 Maker's Mark has added more than 500 solar panels to its facility. In Loretto to power its Rick houses, and it's done through a partnership with the Kentucky utilities company. The 560 panels will provide energy for security, lighting, barrel elevators and office spaces in the brick houses. However, I'm curious if there's actually office space at a brick house. If it's true, I don't know if it's a good or bad thing because 3:00 You've been sequestered to sitting in a wreck house every day might get a little bit lonely, almost like Milton then as red stapler in the basement from the office space. But I guess it smells like bourbon, which is better than a basement so you got that going for you. All right, well back to the topic. The new solar array first began producing power for Maker's Mark in early February, and is expected to produce about 268,000 kilowatt hours per year. e commerce analytics company profit, tiro said that online alcohol sales could explode from anywhere to seven to $15 billion in the next few years, noting that e commerce is making an impact on just about every industry imaginable. And alcohol looks to be the next sector to be disrupted by the continued shift to digital. However, as we've been saying on this podcast time and time again, the three tier system is slowing this down and is dating the industry and an article by beverage daily calm. It looks at platforms such as drizzly go, puff and thirsty 4:00 brands can catch on and partner. It also goes into detail on how these brands can differentiate themselves and not be paired next to other brands that could be either cheaper or delivered in a shorter time period. You can read more with the link to beverage daily calm in our show notes. Last week at the inaugural us distilled spirits conference, Mitch McConnell offered no relief with the ongoing tariff dispute for American and foreign whiskey. The European Union is a key market export for Kentucky bourbon, and it imposed 25% tariffs on us whiskey in 2018. In response to us tariffs that Trump enacted on imported steel and aluminum. Now, late last year, the US left a 25% tariff on imports of single malt Irish and Scotch whisky liquors, and that also affected global companies like brown Forman and biagio that import these products to the US. Now I common excuses that the US whiskey industry has just been collateral damage in Trump's trade disputes. 5:00 And Chris Walker, President and CEO of the spirits council said that the industry hasn't lost hope and that the levees will be removed. And now there's even more coverage that the chief executives of the Scotch whisky Association and the distilled spirits Council of the United States are calling on the UK and US governments to urgently find a negotiated solution to unrelated trade disputes and remove all terrorists on distilled spirits. Have you ever wondered, why does whiskey taste like whiskey? Well, when we nose and taste bourbon, we get leather, caramel dried fruits, but it was never made with any of that. And a new article by Lou Bryson at The Daily Beast, he explores every step of the process and how flavors are derived with grains like rye and their spice in his character. Why using the same Nashville at two different distilleries will result in two different very whiskies. And then there's 5:55 an organic compound formed by bacteria that's found in Water Agency 6:00 And is responsible for that musty or earthy smell like some lake water, but can also be found in whiskey too. There's more talk about stills barrels, proofing and more and you can read all this with a link to the Daily Beast in our show notes. For today's podcast, Michael Myers tells a story of the starting distillery to 91 he had a career in photography in the events of 911 made him want to do something else. So like anything most of us want to venture into you research and research and research. Michael actually built his very first still on a tight budget ended up even using some his photography equipment in the still itself. The distillery has grown but that original still is used as as doubler today, from these humble beginnings, his whiskey has gone off to win many different awards, and now they're expanding into more and more states. The distillery is expanding itself and he's creating a whiskey that is asked when the state finished that he feels his 7:00 authentic to Colorado. We're currently doing our 2020 bourbon pursuit audience survey. So we want to know more about you, our listeners. So if you've got 30 seconds to spare, please visit bourbon pursuit.com slash 2020 survey. It really it only takes 30 seconds. We appreciate the time. Are it Showtime, here's Joe from barrel bourbon. And then you've got Fred minich with above the char 7:28 it's Joe from barrel bourbon. In 2013. I launched barrel craft spirits without a distillery and defied conventional wisdom. To this day My team and I sourcing blend exceptional barrels from established producers and bottle a cast strength. Find out more at barrel bourbon calm. 7:44 I'm Fred MiniK. And this is above the char. As I put the bullseye upon my lips for the first time, I could feel it tingling upon the bottom of my lip and the top. Once it hit my tongue it just overwhelm my palate with flavor 8:00 drenching down the bottom of my jaw line, tingling the sides of my tongue tingling the top of my palate. Just feel warming me all the way down. And you know what? It's not a bourbon. And it's not a rye. It's a blend of straights. It's a blend of straight rye whiskey and straight bourbon and it is motherfucking delicious. Right now I'm putting it as one of my contenders for whiskies of the year. You can see my full review on it on my YouTube page. But this, this whiskey and all the barrel releases and all these other blends that we have seen come out in recent years from from high West and barrel and numerous other you know, blending houses that are really doing a great job right now. They really are shaking up our traditions in American whiskey. You see the term blend used to be a really dirty word and American whiskey 9:00 ski and it all goes back to the 1800s when Canadian blenders were infiltrating the straight whiskey scene and undercutting the Kentucky bourbon distillers and putting their Canadian blends on the market and you know what consumers really, really liked them. And so it begins there and the Canadian whiskey distillers were trying to block the bottle and Bond Act of 1897. Of course, they were unsuccessful. The Canadian whiskey distillers also rise up again after prohibition, and they actually ironically tried to put bottled and bond on their label. Now, what's interesting is that the US government ended up terrifying their their whiskey to block them from using bottled and bond so that basically stopped them from using bottled and bond. But at that same time, American distillers did not have a lot of stocks from their left over from prohibition. So they actually had to use blends and 10:00 cells to get their brands out onto the market. And so you would see neutral grain spirit being added to, say, a four year old bourbon that had just been distilled a couple of few years ago. And that really kind of like people were like, ah, I really like blends, but this is all I got. And the straight bourbon distillers were just kind of reluctantly doing it, but they had to and so you couple that what they would later call rocket whiskey with the the the blended whiskey from from Canada, and you had distillers in the 1950s not even allowing the the word blend being used in their distilling house, and that's where the words mingle and marrying or born. And for every decade after that the Kentucky distillers especially, would call out blend as a dirty word and would not let people say putting two barrels to 11:00 Together was blending that was mingling. And so that's where those words come from is because people were never wanted to use the word blend in Kentucky distilleries. Now fast forward to 2020. You have a lot of new blood in the industry, a lot of new blood that does not care about old terms or old ways. They just want to put out great whiskey. And I got to tell you some of the more exciting whiskies that I have tasted in the past five years, our blends of straight whiskies. They are absolutely fantastic. But you will never, ever hear me say those words around the great Jimmy Russell. If you ask him, blend is still a dirty word. And that's this week's above the char. Hey, make sure you're checking out my new podcast the Fred Minix show where I interview musicians 12:00 And I pair whiskeys to their palate. I'm having a blast and coming up I've got an American Idol winner on the show. Until next week cheers 12:12 Welcome back to another episode of bourbon pursuit the official podcast of bourbon. Kinney and Ryan here in our official recording studio, which is deemed Kenny's basement. Yes, yeah. Where we shoot everything. Whiskey quickies the podcast unit Hey but you know we started get everything together we got lights we got cameras we got everything happened in here so it's fun for especially people that are either watching on YouTube or on Facebook or something like that and you want to get something different than just something audio only at least get a fancy background. Yeah, unfortunately for our guests, when they show up, they're like, damn it what you're in a house, like a recording studio. are gonna be we'll get another one of these days. One of these days. One of these days we'll get there you know, as much cooler sailors whiskey, I'm sure But well, we'll get the studio there one of these days. We'll get some sound panels and everything like that. That makes us feel a little bit more legit 13:00 But you know, today I'm really excited about our guests because this is a distillery that, you know, we've heard about, you know, we've read about it before and bourbon and banter and everything like that. He's even been a guest with Fred MiniK on his show on Youtube before and so now something in common. You know, Fred's the mutual connection here right here we go and then and so being able to have him on the show kind of talk about their stories stuff like that is you know, pretty exciting because anybody that isn't watching on TV he brought to find whiskeys for us to sit on here. So we got their their bourbon and their rye, which you might be hearing us sipping up throughout the show. Yes, and it's very highly decorated bottle. So tons of awards. And I just had it for the first time and I can see why. For a distiller this young, it seems like some pretty good, juicy got here. So I'm excited to hear the story and dive into how it got to this ball. 13:53 See, they put stickers on Oh, yeah, absolutely. So let's go ahead and introduce our guest. So today we have Michael Myers. 14:00 Michael is the founding distiller and CEO of distillery to 91 out of Colorado Springs. So Michael, welcome to the show. Thank you very much. Glad to be here. Well, good. So you know, before we, you know, talk about the whiskey and the distillery let's kind of let's rewind the hands of time here kind of talk about your first introduction to bourbon or spirits or anything like that. Yeah, so the it's funny. The first time I drank whiskey that I remember was, we always have those stories, too. Yeah, I 14:31 was I was 18 and turn just turned 18 that day and went to a local bar with friend He must have been in Canada or something. 14:41 Now in Georgia, 14:43 close 18 That all changed but I went to bar and wanted to drink a whiskey and ordered Yukon jack, which was sort of the whiskey at the time. Sweet and now it's really not I mean, I think it's GNS what's 15:00 Some natural flavorings and stuff, but you would know better now I know konjac is a new one on me. It's from Canada. 15:08 That you said Yeah. And it's Yeah, it's a liquid. Gotcha now and so yeah with my friend Todd Hawkins and we had a lot of fun and drank you know, a shot of it and 15:23 and then probably the next time I mean, I was drinking jack jack daniels, as well later and then college. One of my worst experiences was super bowl and I had bought some really nice Crown Royal, moving up in the world and 15:40 and drank not a fifth but maybe 375 of that throughout the Super Bowl and just got so sick and actually woke up the next morning was like, I love whiskey. I am going to the bar and forcing myself to drink more whiskey so that I don't have that issue. 16:00 Where I can't smell that ever again. And so I did that day I got up that afternoon went to the bar and that first shot of whiskey was rough. can imagine you can even like try to like get a bloody or bloody married Atlanta your way in here though. No hair, the dog, and it was great. And now I make it. Yeah, that's one hell of a story. I know. That's like the most badass story I've ever heard. There's no way that I mean, I remember back in college and stuff like that. There was no way I get up after feeling hungover after a bad night and be like, I'm going for a gator, right? Like coconut water. I'm like, What can I do to feel better? I mean, back then everybody was drinking like Pedialyte, they would actually go and buy like, I'm guilty of that. There you go. It doesn't work. I think my times way before video. 16:48 Were salty. I was in Savannah, Georgia. They just kept drinking. 16:53 I was like, yeah, definitely different time we're searching for pedia lightnings like it just bring it up for us. 17:00 right now. 17:02 So let's kind of talk about more of like your history and stuff like that. So you were in Savannah, how long were you in Savannah? So I was in Savannah for school. I'm born and raised Georgia. With my summers spent in California. My mom lived out there since I was six. And so I went to about two different Yeah, ends of the spectrum, Georgia and California really different because we raised Tennessee walking horses, so and in middle school, we had 11 acres inside the perimeter and then moved out to Alpharetta with 70 acres and another 80 so we had horses and cows and all kinds of stuff. And I was given a camera when I was 15. My mom gave it to me and picked it up and never looked back. And so I went to Savannah College of Art and Design, believe it or not, that's where 291 comes from for me. So I my dorm room was 291 and after I moved in there I went school and learned in history. 18:00 class that the very first photo gallery ever was gallery 291 was in New York in 1907. And so I'm like, meant to be a photographer. And that's where 291 came from, which is my brand name. And that just those three numbers just have just stuck with you for forever. Yeah, as a I was a fashion beauty photographer for over 27 years and like for models are young ones. Yeah, very cool. Yeah. Mainly makeup beauty stuff, like Revlon. Clairol? Yeah, I still only know this because my wife's a cosmetology 18:33 Tiffany and company but I did shoot for this old house and Forbes FBI and what kind of cameras us Michael Jordan a Canon What do you know I shot with a Pentax six, seven, and it's a it's it's looks like a 18:49 35 millimeter that's on steroids. And so the negative is six millimeters by seven. So that's that's pretty big, almost playing card but a little smaller than that. 19:00 You guys are speaking a different language to me. I've tried, like, I've dabbled in a lot of things in photography. It was like one of them and it lasted for like two months. So I like it though. But it's collecting dust. Nice. Now just like iPhone, you know, I bought it right. That's everybody asked, Do you still do that? And I'm like, I have an iPhone. I mean, it's, it's in my pocket. It's all branded. I mean, it's, it looks like a phone. I'll show it to you afterwards. Yeah, that's what the sake is. Most people. You know, I remember when I had my first kid and, and they said, like, Oh, you've got to go out. You've got to buy an awesome camera. And, you know, here's your here's your cannons, your DSLRs. And I'm like, 19:37 I don't know if I'm going to be lugging this thing around with me everywhere we go. I just don't know if I'm gonna do it. But I remember I did look into it. I just never pulled the trigger on it. Yeah, yeah. good reason. Yeah. 19:47 I mean, if you're going to shoot, you might need it a better one. But family stuff. It's always been best. The camera in your hand or the camera in your pocket, because you'll get the image. It doesn't matter if it's hype. 20:00 quality or not putting you at least have the moment. Yeah. And that's what matters. I'm probably not gonna make it poster size when I was shooting. I'd be so focused on like getting a shot that I would forget the moment, you know, not being in the moment. That's why I was like, just doing my iPhone, but right. We're not here talking about cameras. No, no, but I want to hear a little bit more about the photography and like, because that seems like it was a pretty mean 20 years as you said that you were doing that right. 27 Yeah, yeah, I mean, so, so kind of talk about you've got to have some, at least some pretty funny stories or something good from those days, too. So I shot Angelina Jolie when she was 15. I have that picture on my 14 year old was. 20:39 And when she was 16. I shot her a couple of times. Some of my last clients were the Olsen twins. shot down. 20:46 Shot. 20:48 Like geeking out right now. She's like an Olsen twins. Yeah, so I had a really great career. It was still a struggle. It was you know, a lot of work and living in New York. 21:00 Not easy raising a family there and you know being a freelancer so as about to say so like the the dynamic of photography and freelancing versus making whiskey, like what Be honest what's more enjoyable now 21:16 making whiskey and how do you merge the tape? 21:20 I built my still out of photograph your plates. Okay. So a photograph of your plate is a flat copper plate you chemically edge an image in, you put ink on the plate, you put a piece of paper with it, run it through a press and you get an ink photograph. So I took those seven copper plates of different images from my life and water jet cut them took them and rolled them through a roller so that curve and then had a guy TIG weld it together. And that was that was my original still 45 gallon still. I had a 21:53 cask for the thump kegger doubler and I built a stripping still out of a 22:00 55 gallon gallon stainless drum. So you built this all yourself? I did. How do you do that? Like YouTube or something? Yes. I grew up on a farm I can build. Okay. I'm a redneck. Yeah. 22:15 And yeah, I mean, my story's intertwined with New York and 911 and then building this still. And the process of distillation reminds me the dark room. So that's where 291 came from, for the brand name for me, but I built that still and that still is the thump keg to my 300 gallons still that I built had built in Colorado Springs. So these these guys department of defense contractors, and they built things like titanium ball valve that's like 10 inches across four new killer sub, you know, valves and and nickel plate press not plate but nickel press rings for proposal. 23:00 tubes. And they're like, we like whiskey. Do you need a bigger still? And I'm like, Yeah, great. Sharon so gave them my plans and they built 300 gallons still that looks identical to mine. And the funny thing was, there's a little bit of pressure in a still like five pounds, but not much, but they were engineers. I went to art school. And they didn't believe me that it didn't need to be that thick. So they built it out of plate copper. So it is thick and heavy, but it's beautiful. It works really well too. So kind of talk about that, because you kind of intrigued me right there because I remember reading a little bit something about 911 and that happening and you couldn't get back to your apartment or something like that. And you kind of just had to move the family for a little bit kind of talk about that time. Yeah, so 911 we live three blocks from the World Trade Center. We lived on the corner of Warren and West Side Highway. And I was on granted and Dwayne with my son on my shoulders when the first plane flew over my older son 24:00 So they were four and five, my oldest son was in, in our building in ps 89, which is on the second floor, we lived on the 25th floor, and we had just dropped him off. My wife and I and my son walk into his class or his school, and that's when the first plane flew over. And so yeah, so everything that day was a crazy day, needless to say, spent the night on North more. 24:27 And then with seven families and then couldn't get back in our apartment, went to Long Island. Long story short, moved to Colorado for about nine months. I commuted move back to New York, was there a couple of years and it wasn't good for my family. So I said we'd move back you're still doing photography at this time? Yeah, I got to do in photography. And so we moved back and I commuted another four years full time, and then was just trying to figure out something else to do and still, like wrote some TV, worked on some movie stuff. 25:00 And just nothing really panning out. And I shot a vanity fair job in New York in August 2010 and on the way home read an article about the guy that created Sailor Jerry and Hendrix shin and he, you know, created an idea and branded it and all that somebody else made the juice form and I came back thinking wow, I could brand a whiskey you know, and and talk to a friend of mine, Mike Bristol, Bristol brewing. And he said, get your license and I'll try and help and so and then somebody else said why don't you try and make it because you can always hire somebody if you can't. And I'm like, they make it in the woods of Georgia. It can't be that hard. 25:41 And so I decided to build my still moved into 300 square feet. Got my DSP distilled spirit plant permit in April with I got it in four weeks from when I applied, which is amazing time. That's right takes us for 26:00 TTP doesn't move that fast anymore. And so I was in 300 square feet. I could make 60 gallons a month of Finnish whiskey that was working my butt off that was you know, 17 hour days seven days a week. Wow for talking about those like first attempts at making whiskey what's it like what do you do going into like are you reading a manual? Or how like are you just like going off like I'll travel knowledge and what will you do that? Yeah, he's got a he's got a landline to somebody with some some overalls on be like, No, you gotta tweak. You gotta move this. Yeah, so I'd never brewed beer. And I'd never distilled until I started this in my first distillation true. Finished distillation was September 11 2011. 26:42 My still the guy, TIG welding it together finished it after it took him all summer to get started on it. finished it September 9, and so I waited for that to remake that anniversary. And yeah, during that time, I read YouTube blogged everything. I 27:00 Heard about how you make whiskey. And and it is funny. The one thing that I do say is I watched popcorn Sutton's documentary, the original one. And in there, there's a point where he talks about taking, he takes a stick and the worms there. And he puts the stick in the end of it and lets it balance. And he says, if the whiskey is thicker than the stick coming off, it's fighting whiskey. So from that I learned you need to run it really slow to make really good whiskey. And there's other things that I learned books, I read things, and I love to cook and I love the dark room. And so I really feel that was like my home brewing experience. Putting those two things together to get to make whiskey. So are there any other like outsiders or consultants that you leaned on to kind of pick their brains or kind of guide you along? Or is it totally just you? Totally me? That's cool. How did you know you weren't gonna like blow up the place? Like, you know, just, I don't know, you know, there's a lot of pressure on 28:00 Nice other like five pounds pressure but yeah run high. That seems like a lot of back and happen. I knew that it was an open system so as long as you don't plug the system you're good and and as long as you keep cooling the steam coming off the still, you're okay but if that water stops 28:21 that can be a problem. Yeah, there was one point where that happened for me and it was a mess and 28:29 I think there was a room full of 160 proof steam all wrapped around me and I was just like, okay, let's calm down. slow this down. Yeah, and I just I read a lot I paid attention to what how it was supposed to work and and did it that way. The funny thing is, is I steam heated everything. So I put a steam coil in my mash tun that also was my stripping still with a different top on it and a column and then my finish still had a steam code. 29:00 illinit and I bought a home steam unit for steam shower. And I first time I hit the button that came on, it was all hooked up. I'd like to say we're like close from 29:11 anywhere. Close. That's funny. 29:15 And so I hit the button, went to take notes for a little bit about an hour later the day turned off. And I'm like, What? walked over there looked at everything. It was heat hot and push the button and came back on. I'm like, great, literally an hour later cut off again. And I was like, Damn, it's a home steam unit. It's got an automatic off on it. So literally for the next two and a half years. 29:42 Every run from 29:45 finish run stripping to mashing then I had to reset that button every 45 minutes. Gosh, that's awesome. It sounds terrible. 29:56 So I'd run home cooked dinner. That's like the great bootstrapping story. 30:00 Like somebody just like going in and just giving it their all and like figuring it out. I don't know. It's pretty cool. That's right. And I'd go home cooked dinner, come back, push the button, go home eat dinner, go to the liquor store and make a sale come back push the button go back to another store to settle alarm on your phone. 30:18 Reset, Steve, I know 45 minutes pretty good now. 30:24 Somebody goes up how the wind take their 45 minutes. Don't worry, I got that. I got 30:30 I mean, that's that's it isn't it is impressive story of being able to go and learn and actually build it yourself. You know, it's like, it's like most of the people that you know, you say like, Oh, you wanna write a book on something? Or if you're if you want to learn something, right, write the book on it or do whatever it is to actually learn how to do it from the inside out. And, you know, you could go to moonshine you and you can learn and look and be able to like look at it but mean you you really like dope the pieces that actually made this all together. I did and moonshine you wasn't around at that time. 31:00 And there wasn't a lot It was mainly have gone if it was already just done it yourself. 31:06 That's an interesting question. I probably wouldn't have. So when I went to buy a still, that's why I built my own Vendome had a 55 gallon or 50 gallons still, that was like $50,000 I'm like, I don't have that money. I've never made this stuff. How What? So I, 31:25 I decided to build my own. So that probably the same with 31:30 moonshine, you probably would have been expensive. I wasn't sure. You know. Yeah. So just, you know, just wing it. Looking at your best, right, I guess then talk a little bit more about because I think one thing that's interesting here was you're talking about your copper plates that you use that you you took and then if I understood correctly, you said you rolled it out thin enough that you could then kind of form it and build your still so didn't roll it out. It was fairly thin copper. It is then copper. I mean, it's it's rigid. 32:00 But you roll it just to curve it to put the curve in it. So 32:05 that's why you roll it not not squeezing the copper out. But the etchings are still on the still you can see them when you go and take a tour. It's pretty amazing. But yeah, I just 32:19 researched it. Not everybody can take weld copper, and I found a man that was an amazing welder. Another God guy that could could take weld copper and did really nice job with it. So and talk about the design a little because I know we've had we've had Vendome on the show before. And you know, they they talk about all the crazy designs and you go You mean you go to anywhere like you see the different steel boxes, you see the different ways that people are putting it I mean, it could be a spatial issue could be a bunch of different ways. But you know, unless you're doing a copper pot still everybody more it's a column still but everybody's is a little bit different, a little bit unique. So kind of talk about how you came to the design of what yours was. 33:00 Going to be so mine's a copper pot still, there's no plates in it at all. The only sort of plate is the thumb keg. So that kind of works as a what plates do and still. And that design I found on the web. Somebody had built one and I was like, that's really cool. And I designed it more how I needed it. But the the design of the still, there's a secret behind that. I figured it out. 33:29 I'm a visual person and I just I found a few stills that I liked and came up with a concept and idea and how, what the sizes should be and drew it out. So I had in high school I had 11 quarters of mechanical drafting. So I'm not great at it now because it's that's a long time ago, but I can draw that like AutoCAD or before was AutoCAD. Like pencil and paper. 33:58 T square Yeah. 34:00 Exactly with a maybe a compass compass. Exactly. tractor. Exactly. And that's what I did. I drew it out, I bought a drawing board, which is a piece of soft wood, thick, you know board and I bought paper and drew it out. I still have those drawings of it. I actually drew a limbic still first. And it's a really beautiful drawing, but I never went that direction. I went with the pot still. So how about you said vinden was 50,000 How much was your homemade $500? Wow. The cost savings? Yeah. All the parts I you know, I sourced all of it. That's not with my time in it or anything like that. But sure, yeah. Where'd you get all the parts like Craigslist or? Pretty much? No. Granger, actually. Okay. 34:46 A lot of parts on there. They have more stuff than you'll ever know. Yeah. You're like, do you have this and like, yeah, and I'm like, What? You'll have that too. So yeah. Craigslist would be a better story though. I know. 34:59 In search of 35:01 Such of a doubler misconnection where's my doubler? Yeah, so I guess um, you know so we're talking right now about making your still and making white dog and and kind of talk about what was that next progression of it so he's shown us the the picture of it right now so yeah, that's it is it's an exact replica of your of your original. It's really cool. Oh, that's awesome. That's really cool. So making white dog here at the very beginning so were you were you thinking like okay like I'm gonna make whiskey I'm gonna make bourbon or was it just like, what was the kind of like your end goal that you had in mind. So I set out to 91 Colorado whiskey, I set out to make a Western whiskey whiskey that you would walk into a bar and a Western asked for, you know, whiskey, walk up, the bartender finds a Western whiskey for you. So mine is a Colorado whiskey and it's big, bold and beautiful, like the state of Colorado. Okay, so 35:58 and they slam the bottle down. It'd be too 36:00 91 and you know, get to drink it and you have a deal afterwards. Yeah, exactly. And so I love rye whiskey before I made my own Thomas handy was my favorite. So both these my rye and my bourbon are my original recipes. The bourbon is changed slightly. It's 80% corn 19% modify 1% malt barley. It started out at 20 mile rye, and that's because Mike Bristol had a bag of corn 50 pound bag of corn, and it was over a weekend I wanted mashin. So I went to the homebrew shop and bought I was looking for a ride. They only had Ryan mall. I'm like great, I need them all to convert. So I did that mashed in and ran that. I ran that on a very small I stripped it and then ran it on a very small Olympic still. And that was truly my first distillation ever. And then the next distillation and I have all these notes written down with the dates on it and everything. 37:00 The next Captain's log. Yeah. Yeah, the ttv you have to a lot, you know, and I didn't I didn't have any money. I wasn't doing any, you know, computer stuff. So I was handwriting notes in the notebook. And they're funny to go through because I talked about, you know what I'm doing distillation, but I also talked about my son's running cross country that day, or an event I was going to or what was going on in my life throughout these days. So it's kind of cool to look back. It's all chicken scratch scribbled scratched out spellings wrong, you know, all that good stuff we need to do today. Like why the fuck is this? 37:40 What the hell is wrong with this mash? Yeah. Or, Oh, that smells like throw up. That is not good. Yeah. But that is gold because you can always look back on that and be like, this is where I started and always kind of bring you back to that. That is awesome. Yeah. And we go back to it actually. There's another mash in there. That is a 38:00 Special release comes out, usually in October. It's called bad guy. And that was my third recipe. And we we went back a couple of years ago because the newer bad guy wasn't tasting the same as the old bad guy and so we went back and read the recipe in the directions and 38:21 bad guy came from so I did as a single barrel for restaurant and I had done this mash to try I hadn't experimented so I was going to experiment and bad guys a four grain we did bourbon and when it came up still I was like, that is really good white dog. I mean, was sweet, amazing. And I put it in a in a tank and was waiting and was supposed to have already mashed in for this other one for the restaurant. And I got behind and I needed the cash and so I was like, you know I got the that one in the in the tank over there. I'll just 39:00 Cell it so I called him to come hammer the bong it's done, put it in there hammered the button. He was talking to his son on the phone who was like four. He's like, what should I call it? And his son goes bad guy. 39:12 And I was like, Oh, damn, and 39:16 so he he year later, when the whiskey was coming out of the barrel, I'm like, what are we gonna name it? And he goes, I don't know. And I'm and I had written on the barrel bad guy, so I didn't forget. And I'm like, you gotta call it bad guy. We got to call it bad guy. And he's like, No, I don't know. And then I talked him into it finally. And so that's why it's bad guy bourbon to 91 bad guy bourbon, very cool store grand weeded bourbon, you have a lot of cool stories. 39:46 Just sit back and listen, not just keep talking. I'll shut up. 39:50 I mean, kind of talk about that a little bit as as you were, you know, how much do you producing and what kind of you know at that time like what kind of barrels you putting them in like a 40:00 Talk about that process to 40:05 with the careers of master distiller spanning almost 50 years, as well as Kentucky bourbon Hall of Famer and having over 100 million people taste his products. Steve nalli is a legend of bourbon who for years made Maker's Mark with expertise and precision. His latest project is with Bardstown bourbon company, a state of the art distillery in the heart of the bourbon capital of the world. They're known for the popular fusion series, however, they're adding something new in 2020 with a release named the prisoner. It starts as a nine year old Tennessee bourbon that is in finished in the prisoner wine companies French oak barrels for 18 months. The good news is you don't have to wait till next year to try it. Steve and the team at Bardstown bourbon company have teamed up with rack house whiskey club rack house whiskey club is a whiskey a month club on a mission to uncover the best flavors and stories that craft distilleries across the US have to offer. Their December box features a full size bottle of Bardstown suffusion series and a 200 milliliter bottle of the prisoner. There's also some cool merch 41:00 side. And as always with this membership shipping is free. Get your hands on some early release Bardstown bourbon by signing up at rack house whiskey club.com use code pursuit for $25 off your first box 41:15 How much do you producing and what kind of you know at that time like what kind of barrels you putting them in like kind of talk about that process too. So the barrel mill, I found them online somehow and they were fairly new out of Avon, Minnesota. And so I called them they would FedEx me a barrel. So I'm like that works. You know, everybody else wants to sell you a palette 41:38 palette. 41:40 There's a funny story about palette too. And so I just bought a barrel and would fill it up and and I had a few barrels in that 300 square foot space. And I'd harvest it and hand bottle and label it and go out and sell it. So the very beginning here kind of talk about what's your because I remember you said you were doing would you say 42:00 50 6060 gallons in a week, right is my month, a month, a month. And that took that took, you know, six. So my fermentation tanks were 55 gallon Pepsi, you know, plastic drums with the top cut off. And so it would take, I'd mashin six. So I could do two matches in a day. So that's three days, I could strip two in a day. So that's three days of stripping, and it would yield about 3540 gallons of low wines and at 35% or so and then I'd finish on it and it would I end up with like 15 gallons. And so in a you know, in a month period, I had 60 gallons to put in barrels. So I mean talk about it, like as we talked to, we talked a big boys right and they're pumping out that in 20 minutes, right? I mean, 42:54 yeah. So kind of talk about you know, like, you know, where where did you kind of see yourself 43:00 Like, were you like, this is awesome. Like, this is fun. I'm having fun with this, or you like I'm in, I'm in over my head, like kind of talk about what was going through your mind at that time. It was amazing. So when it first came out still and I tasted it, and I had a friend that was a bartender, phenomenal bartender, Nate Windham, and he would taste it. And he's like, Damn, that's really good white dog. And so he had a couple of cocktails that he was using some white dog that was on the, on the shelf at the time. And he just started trading out with my white dog and my fresh. And I always say if, if it came off, and it had been a grind to figure out the recipe, and it wasn't that good coming off, it would have been, it would have been a lot harder. But when it was that good, and Nate was already making cocktails with it, it was like, all right, this is working, and I could taste it and tell. And so but I mean, the whole process, you know, you've got to make those tale cuts and that's, that's the art of distillation. And I didn't know anything and so 44:00 That was made me nervous, you know, what are you going to do how you're going to do this? And so 44:06 in my processes of photographers solving problems, you know, the, the head cut is easy, it's a percentage, or you can taste the difference really quickly. It also drops improved quite a bit at head cut, and then you got ethanol coming off and then tail it's like where do you stop as a distiller the art of distilling, where do you stop and so when it started dropping and proof, I decided to take you know, a quart mason jar and and collect it every 10 proof and then go back, you know, I had the main amount of ethanol but here I had tails coming off. And I just decided started tasting them and deciding where, how much I would put back into, you know, the ethanol that had already come off. 44:56 And so that's that's how I figured out my cut. 45:00 Yeah, and we got to make sure you pick up the cuts cuz well that should make you go blind if you get it wrong. That's the that's the head cut. There you go okay. acetone, methanol and all that that comes off first loser, high, high alcohols that have a low boiling point. So were you like cash flow in this with your photographer photography? What the photographer you're you've only had one port right now get it I'll spit it out. Get it out your photography, photography career was it paying for your gosh what can I say that photography career? I just did it 45:38 photogra man 45:41 was your photography career was this kind of fuel in this baby or were you just like out on your you know on your own trying to make this work. I know my photography was not. I did do a design job for for charity. They were trying to save 46:00 The hospital from being sold to large corporation. And so they had this whole campaign they wanted. And so I designed and did commercials and did all kinds of stuff for it. So it paid me really well. So I use that money to start to 91. Gotcha. And to go back to the original distillation and all that, you know, when I started making to 91 I wanted to be Colorado and kind of branded and so it we haven't talked about that, but it's 291 Colorado bourbon or 291, Colorado rye whiskey, and it's Aspen state finished. So I take toasted pieces Aspen, pop the bung on the barrel, put the Aspen in the oak barrel, and for the last few weeks, we finish it on Aspen. admins are the trees that guys may turn yellow, but they don't lose their leaves. Is that right? No, they they lose. Okay, they've turned yellow and red. They're really beautiful. Yeah. 47:00 Why we only Aspen reference I knows we the dumbing down. Oh, yeah, yeah. So talking about City College. 47:07 So the way I figured that out was I wanted to ask been on the label I, I took some aspirin, toasted it, put it in a mason jar with some Finnish whiskey and was riding to Boulder with a friend that was about a two hour drive. And I just shook the mason jar. And when I got up to Boulder I had, you know, some of the original and then what it tasted like on Aspen and I'm like, that's good. And so that's where that came from. That's awesome. Yeah. Very cool. What's what is it about Aspen that's different from Oak that kind of gives it some different. It's there. So for me it it pushes common notes to maple and it adds a little spice to it and a little smoke. This rye has a beautiful color on it by the way too. I need to try the wrap the porcelain arriving on the nose on the rise really good. I love it. So it's one on 1.7 48:00 proof. 48:01 The bourbon was 100 proof 48:04 and how long you, you agencies and what type and how big of the containers and everything like that. Let's get let's get into it for that was all there. It's all secret. Yep. Oh gosh, man. Guess we had to go on a tour to find out. 48:21 So it's American oak barrels deep charred. We age a year to two years. Right now, you know the ride that you're talking about in 2018 one world's best ride from whisky magazine. It also won America's best in 2016 from World whiskey magazine. And then that's an interesting thing that in that 300 square foot space, my barrel number two of this rye got 94 points from Jim Murray's whiskey Bible. Congratulation. Thank you and and we have seven liquid gold from Jim Murray. 49:00 six different recipes. So it's been so Jim Murray's a fan of you. Yeah, I'm a fan of his He's great. His tasting notes are amazing. I don't know if you've ever read any we haven't had him on the show yet. We'll get him on we'll get him there probably much more elaborate than ours. I'm like tastes like smores are 49:19 or always try relating to our breakfast cereal you know like cocoa Chris for Count chocula I don't notice that you do you do a lot of cereals Don't you know I get a lot of cereal like when you're a kid. You get a lot of those cereal notes with it with the milk one of our Bourbons has a it's a char high rye. It has a cherry fund up 49:41 to it. It says it says he's that one now. You know fun dips that powdery my kids so it's like dry. And so the high proof of it make its cherry but it dries out just like fund up it's really funny. So yeah, you can find my my distill. 50:00 Eric jet had one whiskey and he's like, you know, it's like that. That dusty old Poncho and team was like, What are you talking about? And what were you on at that time? It's not your grandma's attic you know there is a note sometimes that dryness Yeah, you know that musty old basement. musty old isn't good but yeah dusties not so bad. Because it's the dryness part have tasted like, like you talked about cherry funded like grape Kool aids like, you know, the manufacturer grape flavors, you know, like, I get, like, come out a lot. Yeah, a lot. Talk about today's operation. So, so you're you're you're the founding distiller sounds like you're not distilling anymore, but kind of talk a little bit more about, you know, what the size of the operation is the people if you're still doing you know, 60 gallons in a month or if you're if you're if you progress so kind of talk about that. Yeah, I wouldn't be here if I 50:55 guess I don't like only bottles. 50:59 Well, that was interesting. 51:00 Same thing was like 2016 when I sent whiskey magazine, they needed two bottles and I had to pay money and and I was like, I don't have that much whiskey. So that's why it took me a while to start putting in awards. But all my tanks, the 55 gallon drums, the fermentation tanks, my stripping still. I mean, yeah 55 gallon drums have all moved up to 1500 gallons, including the stripping still. I showed you that picture has the 300 gallon finished still in it. All the whiskey still goes across the original still as the thump keg. we distill twice a week, and we're producing about 240 finished gallons a week right now. We're working on some barrel financing to add the first of the year that will move up to producing five days a week. And we are right now. I've been in 7500 Square Feet for six years. Wow. 52:00 That's hard to believe. 52:02 And we are moving within a year we will be in a campus with 28,000 square feet, four different buildings. One will be a distillation building the other one will be fermentation, barrel storage and then tasting room. So you just you're looking at it like this. Let's keep investing into this growing and bigger and bigger and bigger. Yeah, I mean, we did 20 609 liter cases last year. Sold and and we've produced the year before 20 609 liter cases. And so we're selling everything we make. 95% of it is in Colorado. We just opened Kentucky this week. We're in 27 Kroger stores in Kentucky and it's going really well. But we could sell more if we had it and that's what we're working on. But we still the quality we are. It does not come out of the barrel until it's ready. 53:00 What's it like coming to Kentucky is it like coming to Kentucky to play basketball you know like we got faced the Wildcats when you're coming to Kentucky you don't face all the big boys environment is that daunting or you like Bring it on. 53:14 I don't know that it's daunting. The community's amazing. And that's the great thing. Everybody I meet is incredibly helpful. Even Fred MiniK he's he's the one that helped Kroger. So by introducing me to, to the buyer, and you know nothing about this rod tasted very familiar. Not had it at Fred's office. He goes, this is the next big distillery 53:40 because the smoking is that or reminds me of when I had it. So anyway, side note. 53:46 Yeah, so it's been amazing. I mean, at the one of the awards thing, Jeff Barnett, one master distiller jack daniels, Master distiller and I went up to talk 54:00 Cuz you want to say hello, you know, right oh my god, and he was the nicest man and we got talking, and he's from Jackson, Tennessee where my brother lives that's a surgeon. And we had a family farm in Shelbyville, which is which flat Creek, Tennessee, which was seven miles from jack daniels, seven miles to deckle. So I told him that and we really hit it off. And then my brother was doing a charity didn't know I had met Jeff, but knew he was from Jackson and reached out to him to do a tasting of the charity. And because he was from Jackson, he did it. And my brother called me and said, You know, that's who's coming. And I was like, Oh, I just met him. And he's like, wow. And so I went with my brother's friend, our partner that had a twin prop plane, and we flew from Jackson to tullahoma and picked up Jeff, and literally when I walked off the plane, he was walking up on the tarmac, and he's like, hey, Michael, how's it going? And I mean, I hadn't met him once in person, but he knew 55:00 who I was and was, it was amazing and we've become friends. I texted him all the time. I'm going to go see him tomorrow. The first time I went to jack, you know, shortly after that charity, he said, Come down, I'll show you around and and he put me in his personal truck. And he said, What do you want to see? He said, whatever you want to see, I'll show you anything. And that's amazing. And there's gonna be respect because Jeff's had everything he's awesome as to but you gotta check company like jack daniels get every resource imaginable to you whereas you kind of had no resources and made it work. So there's got to be something that you both can learn from each other. I yes. And he's alluded to that and is very respectful that I make a Colorado whiskey and and you know, that's the thing. I love Kentucky bourbon, I love Tennessee whiskey. I love all kinds of scotch Irish whiskey, but I'm not looking to make a Kentucky bourbon and Colorado. My bourbon my whiskey, my rye are to be done. 56:00 Different big bold, beautiful of my brand there's a few names but one's rugged refined rebellious, we also hard made the Colorado way. And then another tagline is 56:15 write it like you stole it, drink it like you own it. Nice like it. So, you know that's what I set out to do this and and it's been amazing 56:25 i mean i think it's it's had a pretty warm reception right and congratulations for coming to Kentucky you know this is it's a it's a big step this nationals feet. Definitely, definitely. And not only that is you know, talking to you about the progression of where it is or where it was to what it is today. It's everything comes with with growing pains too, right? Yeah, definitely. Yeah. So kind of talk about at least Did you have a specific time of growing here that you're like, Okay, like, I wish was just me and the 60 gallons. 56:57 So, the one thing about being a photographer 57:00 Consistently you have to build teams of people especially doing fashion. So hair makeup, you know stylist, model, all that kind of stuff location that was helpful for me in in growing this and finding people that could help me grow it. So I have a team of about 13 people right now. It's an amazing team they do phenomenal work. But yeah, there were there were times and there's still times you know, I'm bootstrapping it. So there's tight times with money there's tight times with barrels not being ordered. panic, you know, bottle panic, you know things like that when I first started that was something I wanted to mention earlier about a palette to get not this bottle but my original bottle which is similar this but this one came along when I could buy 30,000 or promise I'd buy 30 Yeah, promise but this one I could buy a pallet of and my mom had given me a cooler and at some point and enjoy 58:00 Grant is an ounce of gold. And thank you for explaining that because I was about to say I have no idea what you're talking Yeah, it's a South African coin. And so I was making whiskey in that 300 gallon I needed a bottle they were they give me a better price if I bought a pallet or or to buy the bottle I had to buy a pallet and gold was up expensive than and I literally took that Cougar and cashed it in and bought a pallet of bottles 58:28 and was able to put them in that 300 square foot space I built I built shelves and made it where you know they weren't really in the way and it was kind of crazy but so there are growing pains. I mean you know i the most nervous I've been that I can remember is working on this move for this. You know 20,000 square feet. It's It's big. We We won't renovate it and build it out beautiful with for production line facility. 59:00 We're going to move in with what we have now and grow it like I did from the 300 to the 7500 square foot that worked really well. But we have a our model is a ramp. I mean, it's a it's a steep curve. And so we have a lot to get done in the next four years with making whiskey and, you know, there there are growing pains. It is not easy. There hasn't been a day where I was like, Oh my god, I'm not going to the distillery I give up. I'm done from day one to now. There's never that's never crossed my mind. Yeah, that's awesome. At least that means you're loving it. Yeah, I guess it. You don't have to think of the Olsen twins and they still need me. Right? 59:43 Yeah, that's a funny thing. I broke out a box of Polaroids. So, back in the day before digital, you were doing light test and stuff you used a Polaroid back on the camera. So you would take the picture of strobes go off and you pull the Polaroid Wait a minute, and then 1:00:00 like pushing that button every 40 and you peel it and you'd look at light so I have I kept most of those Polaroids I've got boxes of them and I opened one up the other day and there's some just really beautiful pictures in it showed it to a friend and they were like oh my god you got to start shooting again I'm like I don't know that that's happening but I did reach out to a hairdresser friend and a couple of them at the time with the Polaroids and posted on Instagram with it and hadn't talked to them in years 10 years and they're like what's up and it was really great makes me want to maybe try one day and who knows but not union at the distillery was like oh here's a great you know all your photography client car I got a photography clients and you know, bring them to your distillery like wonder now party this party There we go. But these you can get bottle shots done on the cheap, right you can do those. That's the funny thing. I don't shoot my bottle. Really you don't don't okay jars while you're here. 1:01:00 I shoot on with the iPhone for like in situation but to set them up and shoot them. I mean I can do it no problem but I'm a little too close to the product and also it's a different frame of mind and to get in that frame of mind it would take me a few days or week I'm working with the bottles and stuff to get the light and and it's just easier to for me to pick somebody and go I like his pictures and I can direct what I want from there and so that Yeah, I you know you coming from a photography background and you know, we're all kind of like doing a lot of stuff with whiskey and and I remember I talked to somebody about doing bottle photography and I'm like you charge what like to take a picture of bottle i mean it's it's something that I had no idea that even existed before then so it's a it's it's a really cool that you kind of have you can blend a lot of these worlds together and you know how to direct and stuff like that because I'd be like, I don't know a river in the background like you tell me what looks cool. 1:02:00 Yeah, and I have a business partner in New York. Or we were in a retouching company, Russ gun lack. And he, he still retouches. He's an amazing retoucher. And so I sent him stuff all the time. I mean, funny things, but I send him bottle shots and, and I can direct him and I can I can take a bottle, you know, if it was shot in the same light and have him put it like five bottles in one picture very easily and stuff like that. So I understand how to do that. So that's where I, you know, I can direct it and get it done on the cheap. I mean, everybody else that would cost them a ton of money. 1:02:41 But But I did, we were at a tasting and there was an airplane behind me and had a callsign number on the side of it. It's old, you know, World War Two type plane with that block number. And I took a iPhone picture of it and send it to Russ text it to him and said can you change that to 291 1:03:00 Literally 30 minutes later it came back to me on my phone and it was perfect. I'm like Yep, there you go awesome and posted it and people like out to 91 and I also did it this summer on a bowl. The brand on a bull somebody It was like 301 and I asked him to do 299 on it and they're like, I didn't see that bowl with that brand. 1:03:21 It's really funny. That's good to know people I guess. So I guess kind of last question before we start wrapping this up is you know, you've you said 95% in Colorado, you're growing to Kentucky I'm sure that you've got plans to even go beyond their kind of talk about you know, one last thing that you want to kind of leave listeners with as they are looking at another or walk in the store. They see your bottle and then maybe they hear this like what's one thing you want to leave them with? I want them to enjoy my whiskey. There's the funny thing I I drink my whiskey neat. It's rare. I drink it on the rocks, but I I also in the summer, or when I feel like it I drink my bourbon with 1:04:00 Mountain Dew. I drink my ride with lemonade and my only person I know it does as my dad. It makes it it's amazing drink and it's a nice drink summer drink. Yeah, and I want to drink bourbon. I also drink. I don't drink vodka Bloody Marys. I drink rye Bloody Marys. And those are phenomenal. But I want somebody to try my whiskey. I wanted to take them back to Western days and enjoy it and it it's an unapologetic whiskey. It's it's a big bold whiskey, and 1:04:33 I'm really proud of it. The other thing that we didn't talk about is the cage that's on there. So when I was young, there was a the cork and cage cage holds the cork and when I was young, I'd watch TBS in the morning and saturday morning cartoons and then if it rained, the later it got old movies Come on. And there was an old movie where they were transporting nitroglycerin in a wagon, and they had wired all the bottles in 1:05:00 So it wouldn't bounce. And when I started making high proof whiskey, I'm like, we got to wire the cork on. And so that's where that cage comes from. Gotcha. Gotcha. Now we know there's a story to everything. Really. There is my watch. Yeah. My watch is my dad's watch. And every time I shake it down, it reminds me of home. Yeah, go. Cool. Very cool. Well, Michael, thank you again for coming over here coming on the show. And of course, sharing your whiskey with us. I think it's an incredible story of what you've built and the team that's building this and you know, the direction it's going as well. I think everybody's pretty excited for really the future of what this is going to entail for you. Thank you. Same here, Kenny and Ryan. very appreciated to be on the show. And yeah, that's, you know, we have experimental batch called the E. We love to experiment. I love making my whiskey. I love selling it. I love giving it away to people to try it. tastings and even people I meet give them a bottle. 1:06:00 Cuz they'll share it. And I love that. So I really appreciate today. Thank you guys. Absolutely Yeah, no, thank you for coming. It was a true inspiration. I mean, most companies we have on air even if they're new they go out and get big time investments or you know, get a lot of cash flow to back them up and like to hear somebody just go source parts from Craigslist, not kidding. But, uh, just, you know, just wanting to do something and find a way to like, make it happen is like, It's so inspiring to me. I think it's a very cool story and I'm excited for the brand. It's, gosh, the rise awesome. I love the really good things like thanks so much. But uh, yeah, it's, um, it was a pleasure talking to you and hearing all your stories, for sure. I'd be a part of it. Absolutely. And so make sure you follow distiller to 91 on all the social medias. give a shout out as well as your address where people can go and visit 1647 South 200 Street, Colorado Springs, Colorado. And o

Today, on the podcast we talk with Paul McLaughlin. He might not be known to you yet, or his cooperage, but the story he shares and how they hone their craft is like no other. We had the opportunity to check out Kelvin Cooperage and get a behind the scenes tour of their barrel building process. It’s amazing how everything is still very labor intensive and they use machines and tooling that have been part of their process since the beginning. We dive into toasting on a natural fire and what makes their barrels different from other cooperages around the country. We also discuss the economics of a cooperage and how they are trying to satisfy the growth of a world-wide demand for used barrels. Show Partners: The University of Louisville has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at uofl.me/bourbonpursuit. Barrell Craft Spirits has won a few medals at some of the most prestigious spirits competitions out there, but don’t take their word for it and find out for yourself. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com. Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Show Notes: This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about faulty pipe systems at distilleries. Where are you from? How did you get into the barrel making business? How did you get into bourbon? How does Kentucky compare to Scotland? When did you join the family business? Was it hard to have your brother as your boss? How is your process unique? What is the reasoning behind toasting? Tell us about the natural fire. How long does it take a new cooper to get the hang of the process? Do you rotate positions? Do you have a high employee turnover? How many used barrels are you buying per day? What other barrels do you get besides bourbon? What's the craziest barrel you've made? Tell us about selling barrels in Asia and Japan. Let's discuss the economics of barrel making. What is your quality control process? What makes your cooperage appealing to customers? Is it harder to make a 25 gallon barrel? How do you see this business growing? How do you source oak? How do you determine pricing? What about secondary finishing? Where do you see the business in 10 years? 0:00 If you have a bachelor's degree and live anywhere in the United States, there's now a way for you to take your bourbon education to the next level. The distilled spirits business certificate from the University of Louisville is a six course online program that will prepare you for the business side of the spirits industry offered by the AACSB accredited college of business. This certificate is taught by business professors and industry leaders from Brown Forman beam Suntory jack daniels and more. join this one of a kind experience and prepare for your next adventure. get enrolled into this online program at U of l.me. Slash bourbon pursuit. Literally guys yelling the barrels over hand putting them over top of the fire. Yeah, and they kind of like stepping back a few seconds letting it do it, but 0:46 it's a tough job in the summer like jumping. They're gonna smell like 10 huge fire, scared chiller. 0:53 I feel like I'd be like, keep my arm here. 1:08 This is Episode 240 of bourbon pursuit. I'm one of your host Kenny and I've got this week's bourbon news roundup for you. Woodford Reserve is releasing its annual limited edition Hyperloop expression. Woodford Reserve batch proof. This year it's bottled at 123.6 proof and this expression is part of the annual masters collection series. Woodford Reserve is proprietary batching process for this release is done by blending barrels into a batch and bottling the whiskey at its actual proof straight from the barrel. The batch proof is crafted using the same grain built in process as Woodford Reserve. And this limited edition collection is available in select us and global markets with a suggested retail price of 129 99. There's a bill working its way through a Olympia that would address what seems like a monopoly on selling liquor in Washington State and it's House Bill 22 04 in 2011, the state liquor stores in Washington State let private businesses sell alcohol, it came out of initiative 1183. But some big corporations like Costco in some grocery chain stores seem to get the bigger benefit out of the initiative because in order to sell spirits, you needed to have a location with over 10,000 square feet. A new bill would actually let smaller businesses sell spirits. And last week that bill passed out of the house commerce and gaming committee on a 10 to one vote. So soon you can get your bread, milk, beer and bourbon at a convenience store across Washington State. And Australian couple stuck on a quarantine cruise ship with cases of Corona virus on board have managed to get their wine delivered by drone posted on Facebook by Jan and Dave been skin on February 7. The couple provided an insight into the life on a quarantine diamond princess cruise ship off the coast of Japan and more specifically Getting wine onto the ship. The Naked Wine Club received the request from the couple who wanted to know if they could get their wine delivery while stuck on a ship. And to everyone's surprise, they accepted. The couple posts stated that two cases of wind were delivered by drone to the ship and said that the Japanese Coast Guard had no idea what was going on. I don't know about you, but having bourbon delivered by drone is something that I can start getting behind. A Tokyo restaurant chain has opened up a small pub in one of the city's busiest train stations. But it has a robot bartender serving drinks to commuters on their way home from work called xerocon. Robo tavern. The bar is located in Tokyo is I keep a train station and is owned by your own gataki a company that operates a chain of casual restaurants for after work drinking around the country. This pilot program will run for about two months. But here's the kicker consumers will first pay for the drinks at an auto I made a payment kiosk and receive a QR code of the receipt. you scan that receipt at the robot, and it takes about 40 seconds to pour a glass of draft beer, or a little under a minute to deliver a cocktail. But also, the robot has a set of cameras built into it screen to monitor the emotional state of customers tracking whether they're happy, or if they're growing impatient. So look out bartenders, the robots are coming. vending machines that dispense spirits are becoming more common around the country, but mostly the establishments such as restaurants or bars that already sell alcohol. Anheuser Busch InBev recently introduced beer box for use at concerts, sports arenas and music festivals. And back on January 31, the first District Court of Appeal in Florida overturned the state's 2017 denial of a residential condominium to sell beer and wine in vending machines. This was originally met with criticism from several traders including the beer industry of Florida, Florida beer wholesalers, so Association in the Florida independent spirits Association, but the court struck down the divisions order and that nothing in plain language. afforda law prohibits the sale of alcoholic beverages through automated dispensing machines. So who knows, that can get your bourbon soon through vending machines. Now today on the podcast, we talked to Paul mcglothlin. He might not be known to you yet or his cooperage. But the story he shares and how they hone their craft is like no other. We had the opportunity to tour Kelvin cooperage and get a behind the scenes tour of their barrel building process. It's amazing how everything is still very labor intensive. And he's using machines and tooling that have been a part of their process since the early 1900s. We discussed how he got into the family business of running cooperage from Scotland to Kentucky, and how he dives into their process of toasting unnatural fires are really what makes their product different than any other to purchase around the country. Then we dive into some of the fun part about the economics of the cooperage. And what they're doing to satisfy the growth of worldwide demand for used barrels. Now, make sure you also follow us on social media. And you can see some of the pictures and videos from our visit to Kelvin cooperage. And if you aren't a supporter of the podcast on Patreon, I encourage you, please go and check it out. In the past two weeks, we've released two Elijah Craig barrels, a 1792. foolproof and a willet seven year ride that we all selected with our Patreon community. These are now all sold out. But you don't want to miss your chance to get your hands on the next one. So view all that we have to offer a being a part of this community@patreon.com slash bourbon pursuit. And if you're listening on Apple podcasts right now, make sure you hit that subscribe button because you're probably missing out on all of our bonus content. Every Tuesday we released a two minute podcast called whiskey quickie. And if you aren't subscribed, you won't see the bonus content that we post But hey, if you're listening on Spotify or I Heart Radio, you're all good. And thanks for being a listener. All right, let's get on with the show. Here's Joe from barrel bourbon. And then you've got Fred minich with above the char. 7:13 It's Joe from barrell bourbon. Our Bourbons have won a few medals at some of the most prestigious spirits competitions out there. But don't take their word for it. Find out for yourself. Use the store locator at barrel bourbon calm. 7:26 I'm Fred MiniK. And this is above the char. Listen, it happens sometimes we buy a bottle of bourbon we get home we taste it, and it tastes like musty corn or stale potato chips or drywall or some type of plastic or chemical. And we just completely dismiss that brand. Whether it's new or something we've been tasting for a long time we taste it in that moment. We're like yuck, I don't want it. Now, I've been doing this long enough to know that there's a lot of pieces that go into making American whiskey from the time That the whiskey goes into the barrel, the time it gets into your bottle, there's probably hundreds of factors that could influence the flavor. Things that you don't even think about. Like for example, there was a distillery that recently found hunks of corn in their pipe system. So as it was, they were pumping it into the steel, they found little hunks of corn that were getting stuck a kind of like a collar part. And what would happen is, is that corn got moly, and it started spewing out all kinds of unwanted bacterial flavors and notes and it took them a while, a few bad batches before they figured out the cause of it. In fact, when you go to a distillery and they're on shut down, you can't take a tour. Chances are they found something like that. They find it quite frequently. Very recently, I was at a distillery I'm not going to name who was because it's a new distillery. And right before their bottling line, I learned that they had this PVC pipe before the the whiskey got to the bottle. When I was tasting it out of the barrel, I was like my goodness, this is fantastic whiskey, especially for young distillery. And then when I tasted it out of the bottle in their in their tasting room, it was absolutely different whiskey I tasted this really rough edges plastic note. And I told the distiller this and he said, Well, you know, it could be this PVC pipe that we have here. And I was like, I'm not telling you that it's that or it's not that all I can tell you is that I taste plastic, and he changed it. Now, look, I hope that changes the flavor there. And it was indeed the plastic that was causing that and that distillers no longer going to have to worry about it. But the reason why I point this out to you is we tend to be very critical and very judgmental about the whiskeys we drink and we tend to stay focused on things like warehouses, mash bills East but the fact is, there's a whole A lot that goes into making whiskey and those mechanics, those repairmen, all the people who touch every single inch of that distillery, they all make an impact on the flavor that you taste. And that's this week's above the char Hey, if you have an idea for above the char hit me up on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook or my website, Fred MiniK calm until next week. Cheers. 10:28 Welcome back to the episode of bourbon pursuit the official podcast of bourbon, Kenny and Ryan here on the Shively side of town the lively Shively but our local owner, but I mean this is a this is a part of town and in not only that, just as it's just on that level, but you know, really the topic today is talking about one of the biggest factors that goes into contributing to the flavor of the whiskey flavor of bourbon. And that is the barrel in itself. Yep, 10:55 distillers like take all the credit but it's the it's the wood it's magic that happens we outside of that and, and, you know, we were just walking around the plant and you know, it's it's always humbling and awesome experience to see just you kind of forget how much labor is involved in like, from barrel to bottle and like you just get an appreciation and like so now every time I want to say a bottle sucks, I'm not going to say it because I just saw a bunch of guys sweating working their asses off and like it's really cool to see that, you know, what really is one of those things that there's just so many hands involved in it. 11:29 Yeah, and we're going to talk more about some of the process and what we just saw. We just took a tour of the facility to kind of get some context of, of the situation. And yeah, I mean it was it's a doing wrong, there's a lot of machinery involved, but there's it's not as heavy as automation is like a bottling line now, there's still it's a very hard labor as process there's a lot of quality control and quality checking that goes into it. And And not only that, as we'll talk about the fire and it's very unique compared to a lot of people with inside of the industry here. Of how How they toasts and how they chart barrels and how it is going to derive a distinct profile at the end of day for two. 12:06 Yeah, and I know why our guest wears black shoes. Walking around. Kenny had some Chuck Taylor white Chuck Taylors ons like those are yet 12:17 so we just had our guest dr in there. So let's go ahead and introduce them. So we have today we have on the show we have Paul McLaughlin. Paul is the CO owner of Kelvin cooperage So Paul, welcome to the show. Thank you. 12:27 Thank you for having me. 12:28 I love having you here. Absolutely. So before we kind of get in talking about the business and talking about barrels and stuff like that, let's talk about you. Did you ever growing up I mean so by the way if if people didn't catch catch on you have an accent right so slightly Yeah, so you're not really like the sap like really deep South Alabama, from Shively? No. 12:51 No, so we I grew up in Scotland and my family there had a small cooperage mainly repairing barrels for scotch whiskey industry so it was a pretty small operation. So I've been around barrels all my life and swore I would never work for the family business. So was the name Calvin. It was Calvin Coolidge up yet. So my dad started Calvin cooperage when he was young service apprenticeship when he was 15, and then started the cooperage when he was about 2122. So, you know, had a good run with with that. And then in the early 90s, we realized that it made sense to repair the barrels in the US before we shouldn't have discovered it was a very simple idea, but it was quite revolutionary at the time. So we was this because a lot of stuff just ended up being too damaged by the time while you're shipping bad would, you know, freights expensive so why not maximize your freight costs by shipping on the barrels that are ready to fill without needing to be worked on. So that was kind of the genesis of our move to Kentucky. So we came here or my brother came here. Kevin is cooler with me, came here in the early 90s and started out during repairing us bourbon barrels and send them back over to our customers and Scotland. That was right around the time that American oak was being just kind of rediscovered for wine barrels. So we started making wine barrels and that was where we learned how to toast and treat wood the right way, you know, slow toasting and everything. And then of course, craft bourbon came along and we jumped in 14:35 with two feet into that 14:37 is a lot Why did you say you would never jump back into it? And then why did you jump? 14:42 Why would you do anything with with the Merrill's you know, working with my family, you know, I know that that's a tough dynamic A lot of times when it's proven to be at times, so I wanted to avoid that. Unfortunately, the way I avoided it, but by becoming a lawyer A few years as a lawyer, I would have done anything including working with the family. So 20 or so years later here, I am still very cool. Yeah. 15:09 Okay, so let's, let's also talk about it. So your family was was already doing this for the scotch whiskey industry. Correct. I'm assuming that, you know, in growing up over in Scotland, and people probably say the same thing about us being in Kentucky. I mean, I guess whiskey was was probably pretty common in the household and Oh, yeah, 15:26 yeah. All was a blended scotch. That was just the standard, like bourbon is here. Yeah. You know, that was all people drank. Although growing up, it was more of an old man's drink. You know, that's certainly not where I started out. 15:41 Yeah, we're just start out with it. Well, 15:43 you know, playing a lager. Yeah. 15:46 Yeah. And I still like a pint of lager. 15:49 Was there a turning point for you when you said like, I can, I could probably get on this whole whiskey train to when I moved here. 15:55 Yeah, I found bourbon much more approachable than then. scotch whiskey. You know, to start learning about whiskey much more drinkable. And what was what was the thought process in your head did that because, I mean, we've we've had scotch before and you've got such variations of single malts. Yeah, we've got Pete's and non Petit and then but then like you got the corn side of it that brings this sweet flavor. So what was your kind of? It was just trying bourbon when I moved here, I'd never really drank it before. And everyone was drinking it. So I thought well give it a shot. Yeah, everybody join them. Yes, I might as well and I got local and it was good. You know that that was the light bulb was like, wow, this this stuff is good. It's got some complexity. It's a bit more interesting than just a beer or wine. You know, it's a nice change of pace. What did you What were your first thoughts when you came to Kentucky and like, how did it compare to Scotland? Well, yeah, like, I moved here from Southern California. So that was a culture shock. You know, I was living on the beach in Southern California working as a lawyer. So coming into This environment here it was in San Diego. Yeah. No, it was a big change. Yeah. But you know, I'd been in visited so I knew I liked Louisville and I like the the kind of the countryside you know, the rolling hills around here remind a lot of people of Scotland and I felt the same. So you know, and there's you know, friendly friendly people terrible climate but but you know it we it is getting raging whiskey though because that's the only thing and for seasoning words so it works. It works out well. But no, we've loved it since we've been here. You know, my my kids have been born and raised here. So we're, we're all in what's awesome. 17:41 So So kind of talk about the genesis of of the of this cooperage as well because your brother came here kind of started it and then when did you say like okay, what was that was the turning point when you said I'm ready to start 17:53 joining the family business. What year was that? thought came in 2001. Okay, so I've been practicing law For four and a half years at that point for a big, big international law firm doing kind of soul crushing business litigation, mainly petty discovery disputes. So, look, young partners, which was what we were all aspiring to as beginning lawyers. And they were all pretty miserable. So I thought, why am I Why? Why am I aiming for that? So my wife was, was working at the same law firm as me. And we both just said we need to get out. So family business here, we're 18:33 ready or not? Yeah, 18:34 yeah. So 18:36 yeah, let's say So you started here. Now, was it hard with your brother your boss at first, or did you kind of like how 18:42 did that so that's all part of that. family dynamic? Yeah, I was a bit hesitant. older, younger, he's seven years older. Okay, 18:51 gotcha. Yeah. Younger, 18:54 would be really and he also served as apprenticeship and Scotland. So he's a he's a fully qualified Cooper, which I'm not and which he reminds me of. 19:07 Yeah, there's some fun dynamics going on. 19:09 Yeah. So talk about that different dynamics, what it like you said your brother's the cooperage. What do you bring kind of to this business that maybe you're trying to figure them? Yeah. 19:22 You know, we have a great time running it together. It's a very relationship driven business. You know, you'll have seen that with the people you've talked to, you know, we're all kind of collegial. We've got very long term customers. So we have a great time. And it's an interesting bunch, especially this new kind of craft whiskey. It's brought in a bunch of very interesting, entrepreneurial, different people. All of them have a really great story and you know, they're great fun to work with. 19:51 Were those relationships that before you came on board or were you having to go out and like, knock down doors be like, 19:57 yeah, I want your barrels are You know, you know, and that's what we tell some of the younger people here. So it hasn't always been this way. You know, whiskey wasn't always booming. So yeah, we did have we had times where, you know, we couldn't sell barrels and we had to find new homes for them. You know, we were knocking barrels down and shipping them to China for flooring. You know, they were selling them for less than $10 a barrel, a US battle, you know, which people can't imagine now. You know, they're in such high demand. So yeah, I mean, we definitely go through cycles. Yeah, yeah. This one's just been a really good one for a really long time. Yeah, yeah. Nobody, nobody has podcasts on bridges when you're in a downturn. I went the first probably 18 years here without doing any interviews at all. No one knew we were here knew no one cared. And we've had you know, podcast Video Productions radio shows, you know, you like 20:54 just leave me alone. 20:56 Let me do my work. We are known as a novelty for a while. numberless done. Yeah, 21:02 very cool. And so kind of talk a little bit about, you know, the process here and how it's a little bit different from some of the other ones we've we've had brown Forman, we've had independence Dave on the show, and kind of talk about like, where the process what you do how it's a little bit different hats you need to get anybody else. And not only that is you're doing both ends of the spectrum. You also are getting barrels, you're also brokering and doing a lot of sales, too. 21:26 Yeah. So on our new barrel production that the big difference between us and some of the ones you mentioned is scale. We're tiny compared to independence Dave and brown Forman. So we're not nearly as mechanized, so is a lot more physically labor intensive, intensive. A lot more hands touch the barrels. So we are you know, on a really good day, we might be able to do 500 barrels, new barrels, which sounds like a lot but you know, if you think of other cooperage is doing two and a half to 3000 Today dejenne idea of the scale that I mean, heaven Hill fills 1300 barrels a day. Exactly. Yeah. So we can't keep up with something like that. So, so the barrels we're making, we're doing them a lot more physically intensive, our toasting and charring is all done over natural fires. Using that wine lesson, we learned about how to treat the world with with long, slow toast. Only once that has a toast layer in there. Do we lie the barrel Tatchell ignite and char. And we really believe strongly in that. That toasting process adds maybe 20 minutes to the time the barrels on the fire. So that is a huge constraint on our production, but we're not willing to give that up. We could double our production tomorrow by cutting that out and the two minute gas fire barn but we're not going to do that there's no guy anywhere near these battles 22:56 yet kind of talked about your reasoning behind the toasting as well because I know that you know brown Foreman's typically always known for toasting their burials to independent stage not as much. So how to talk about your, your idea of, of white toast. 23:09 So the idea for me and again comes from wine barrels is your toast layer is an additive layer. char is an extractive layer, it's like a carbon filter. So it's going to extract some of the undesirable young flavors that you get from the new mix spirit. Whereas the toast layer is going to be additive, it's going to add those nice sweet American oak notes that we've all kind of grown to love that kind of, I always describe it as marzipan there's kind of enough He ormandy my listeners are very familiar with Mars a friend, Fred mineva, lovey Mars band, but that's what we're going for. And it gives it that kind of gives it kind of that middle palate that you're looking for fills out in the mouth. And you know it when you smell it, and we smell that toasted barrel back there, and I think you all going to immediately A lot of people describe it as campfire, toasted marshmallows, I definitely get more of the marzipan note, but that's what we're looking for. Once we have that, then we do the char jars important, they're going to interplay, the char in addition to doing all the extractive work, obviously, it gives the color as well. So we want that interplay. And as the spirit expands in the hot months and goes into the wood, and then contracts in the winter, it's going in and out of all those nooks and crannies we create with the alligator char, and it goes all the way into that toast layer, and then back again. So that that's it's the interplay, toasts and char is exactly what we're looking for. 24:42 Yeah, that always been the process and your family's, I guess making a barrels or is it 24:46 something when we were doing wine barrels, it was all about a slow toast, okay. And that's what we learned and we we play around with that on ways to slow it down and you know, do different things. Extend the toaster, get deeper penetration We're applying that to whiskey barrels. 25:03 The natural fire is an interesting aspect of this and I've never seen a natural fire. That's cool. Yeah, exactly. I mean it's it's something that it is it's something that I it almost that the equipment was something that is very reminiscent of a campfire. I mean, like these little metal kind of like tube things that you put in kind of harness everything in there and you kind of you kind of control it. When you bring a Boston button here. 25:26 Like, do you like the perfect 25:28 hovered over? Yeah, yeah. And so kind of talk about what the the differences in in going with a natural fire versus somebody. And that's mostly what the big the big guys do is they have a an automated system, the barrel setup, you count down, it's like three to one and then the run you see this massive like flame come up, and then it's there for eight seconds, 15 seconds, whatever it is, and it's done. So kind of talk about flavor characteristics or imparting of that, like During the HR process, because we sat there as the toasting was happened, and then you also said, watch this guy, he's going to speed it up, right? So kind of talk about, like, what that is like when the charring happens. 26:11 Yeah, so the natural fire, we think are important for a few reasons. Not not the least of which is, its sustainability. We're using our own offcuts, so we're not wasting that would when we shape ahead, we generate the little offcuts of white oak, that's what we burn. So we like that standpoint to it's a bit more sustainable. But we do think it adds some really desirable flavors, like we discussed kinda like drilling a steak on a gas grill or a exotic or the charcoal. Yeah, everyone. Everyone has their own preference. In terms of what we do though. You'll notice there was no timing and no temperature controls back there. There's nothing Yeah, a lot of other people are trying to remove the human element from this kind of make it idiot proof or something. We want a human element. We want our guys to be looking and smelling especially, we want them to know when they've hit that sweet monster panda. And then they let it Ignite. So we've kind of made a conscious decision to not have any timing or temperature controls there. We want the human element because these guys have been doing it for years. 27:17 Yeah, as they say, it's a very unique process and actually watching it happen because yeah, typically, this is all something that is on some sort of automated belt system, but no, I mean, it's literally guys yelling the barrels over and hand putting them over top of the fire. Yeah, and they kind of like stepping back a few seconds letting it do it, but it's a tough job in the 27:35 summer I jump in there. Yes. 27:38 Can huge fire scare chiller? I feel 27:41 like I'd be like keep my arm here today. Yeah, 27:44 yeah. Yeah. That's a tough one. Yeah, yeah, it's um it's good in the winter tough in the summer. So how long like you said these guys know what they're doing? Like how long do you think it takes a new guy to kind of get the feel for it or the one of the guys on the phone or yours today as well? relatively new, it's maybe his second week on the fires. You can tell he's jumping around with it and compared to the other guys, yeah, no longer so a couple of months, ya know, if you can last the summer it'll be all right. 28:12 And so I guess that kind of goes into like an employee rotation is it is where is somebody coming in? It's like, I don't want to say it's like a Ford factory line, but it actually is a factory, right? And do they have one responsibility? And like, that's all they do for their time here, or is it kind of like, okay, like, we're gonna rotate you around. So we everybody kind of has, yeah, we just and we 28:31 don't rotate a ton, but everyone can do everything. So if there are backups, everyone can filter by and clear the backup. So we have a couple of floaters, but most everyone has an assigned position. 28:43 Yeah. And I guess because it's so labor intensive and like you want to keep that human element. 28:49 I do Paul's yard. And we, you know, labor is hard to come by these days and I cut my own loan for example, I can find anyone to do 28:58 it. So So how talk about The labor you know, because manual labor is not like the most appealing thing these days is, you know, most of our guys are 15 plus years with us. Okay, so we have very, very little turnover. And that's key for what we do. You know, the some of them are 20 plus years. So that's been really a great boon for having that stable workforce. 29:20 Yeah, absolutely. So So kind of when talking about back to the business a little bit in regards to scale, we've been talking about like the newly built barrels. I want to talk about a little bit of the sourcing aspect, kind of like, what is what is the magnitude of barrels that you have coming in per day that you're buying on the market from distilleries that you have relationships with, right, and then sort of where does the journey go from there? 29:46 Yeah, so use barrels are coming in from everyone, all the major distilleries and a lot of craft distilleries to would do about 400,000 a year. So they're coming in constantly. It's a constant flow that we need. Most of those are going to Scotland and Ireland, the US barrels but a lot of them are going different places to anywhere. They're making spirits. So are going to Asia a lot to Australia, especially down to Tasmania, which has got kind of a burgeoning craft whiskey market. I didn't know that. Yeah, it's your next trip. Maybe. 30:22 That's my idea. What is their whiskey called? whiskey 30:27 scotch bourbon. Yeah, there's a 30:31 fulfil, put it on the bourbon pursuit credit card. Yeah, funny down airline miles. Exactly. 30:35 So they're going on 40 foot shipping containers 210 barrels to a container. They fit perfectly as if it was made to hold barrels. And they're going all over the place ready to fill so they open container doors, roll the barrels off, fill them right away. That's the idea. And you know people love they use bourbon barrel they know it's only been used once they know it's American oak. They It's got that nice sweet bourbon flavor in it. So it's it's a key taste component of scotch whiskey Irish Whiskey not because they've been doing it for years. And so when somebody is or when you're buying these barrels from somebody I think we had talked about earlier. Is there is there a sweet spot of what you want to be able to purchase? We just need them fresh. You know, the there'll be a mix of different age barrels in different locations, but we just need fresh, not where you're out barrel or 20 now, okay, now, not really the only people that really question that are beer guys. They're looking for something special. Yeah, a lot of times we can't tell what spin in the barrel if it comes from a big distillery. You know, we don't know what run that was or what label it was. 31:47 And I would imagine that you're not putting that much attention to sitting there trying to decipher stamps on the top of them either. 31:54 Yeah, no, we're cranking the they're not sitting for long. You know, they're flying. Georgia. 32:01 And so you also not only just get bourbon barrels talk about the other kinds of barrels with the careers of master distiller spanning almost 50 years, as well as the Kentucky bourbon Hall of Famer and having over 100 million people taste his products. Steve nalli is a legend of bourbon who for years made Maker's Mark with expertise and precision. His latest project is with Bardstown bourbon company, a state of the art distillery in the heart of the bourbon capital of the world. They're known for the popular fusion series, however, they're adding something new in 2020 with a release named the prisoner. It starts as a nine year old Tennessee bourbon that isn't finished in the prisoner wine companies French oak barrels for 18 months. The good news is, you don't have to wait till next year to try it. Steve and the team at Bardstown bourbon company have teamed up with rack house whiskey club rack house whiskey club is a whiskey the Month Club on a mission to uncover the best flavors and stories that craft distilleries across the US have to offer. Their December box features a full size bottle of bars. TV series and a 200 milliliter bottle of the prisoner. There's also some cool merchant side. And as always with this membership shipping is free. Get your hands on some early release Bardstown bourbon by signing up at rack house whiskey club.com use code pursuit for $25 off your first box 33:21 and so you also not only just get bourbon barrels talk about the other kinds of barrels that you have coming in because you know we've we were good friends with with Bill and other folks from for gate whiskey which I know that you've had a hand in helping them launch their products and they got some unique barrels from you as well so kind of talk about that process of so you know, we're we're always tapped in to people who have different interesting barrels you know, Sherry or port that they've done some some finishing with. So we'll bring those in when we find them and find new homes for them. So like before day, I think we find some x Sherry I think they were For that first release they did 34:01 it's like x Sherry x rum like 34:05 and you know and we smell that barrel it tasted it sounds great. And then we have people like, you know copper and kings are always looking to do not strictly bourbon I know but you know they they will try anything with a barrel, any type of barrel they've got really interesting collaborations going on. And then people like barrel bourbon that do a lot of blending, always looking for interesting and unique barrels. And a lot of the beer guys like to do that too. So, really we've had all sorts of barrels come in from a whole different places 34:36 talk about some of the craziest ones you've seen. 34:38 We made we did we we called it a zebra battle for kobrin Kings where we took new staves and use staves and alternated them out the barrel, Justin, we've taken a red, Melissa, you know, you know what, like the outcome of that was or is it still still still awaiting DVD? Yeah, you have to be patient. As you know, and then we've taken a US red wine barrel and I use white wine barrel and alternated those days. We've done we did with hoppings Kings again and we did a phoenix barrel we called it where we took one of their old Sherry barrels, we took two old cherry barrels, we knocked one down and cut the wood up, use that as fuel for the fire, and then shaved the other one and recharge it over that. cherry wood. That's where the Phoenix name came 35:31 from. He's I've seen the Phoenix barrels from from from that I had no idea like what the connotation was, or 35:40 was it? Yeah, so you know, we say to customers, anything you can think of, we'll try it, you know, because we're always learning and interesting for us. 35:49 Has there ever been one that somebody came with an idea and you're like, man, we're not going to do that. 35:54 A lot of the ideas you can tell are marketing driven where they were looking for something different. So St. barrels the age of underwater don't think they'll be much oxygen exchange through those staves. One didn't get too much fun. Yeah, so you know, you can usually tell when it's marketing driven as opposed to, you know, distiller tasting driven 36:18 the pirate ship going across, you know, in a shipping container on a on a ocean liner or whatever boat they get, you know, like that would Jefferson's ocean sounds like it's salty. Did barrels pick up any song? Yeah, unfortunately 36:29 the they're empty but yeah, I mean and the Jeffersons was a cool one too. Yeah, we did those barrels. And that was a, you know, make sense that, you know, the rocking and the heat is going to do something different. 36:43 Yeah. But these are also going and container ships. So hopefully they're isolated and sealed to a degree where it's not Yes, it's not being right. You're not getting too much sort of manipulation to it. As its as it's making. Joking 37:00 went right 37:02 on point. 37:04 So you we've talked about scotch. We've talked about Irish whiskey. What about like, Asia and Japan? Like, are there? Is there a huge market that you're selling there too? 37:14 Yeah, we send a lot barrels into Japan, 37:18 into Vietnam, Thailand, Myanmar, they're making tons of whiskey all over Asia. And we've done a lot of oil. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And if they all start drinking whiskey, it'd be really good. 37:32 Yeah. I mean, I guess the, it's always it's always funny to talk about, like, it's in me, it kind of goes back to just global and economic trade to how it's actually cheaper to buy barrels used here and then have them shipped all the way across the world than it is to actually have your own local local cooperage that are in like some of these countries. So kind of talk about like, the economics they're like, because you you've had to in your brother had to help build grow this business to really what it is today and start you on cooperage and you know that the man hours you know the real all the ones bobbing for new charred oak barrels, no 38:13 place. Yeah, that's a great rule. You know, a lot of these places don't have oak, you know, so that's a huge obstacle, right? You know, they just don't have a supply voke American oak is great because it's growing everywhere right now. You know, so there is a good supply. So that's your first hurdle. And then obviously, the labor is a is a big deal and trained labor and equipment, you need specialized equipment. So we use the ship a lot of us barrels knocked down, we've knocked them down, lay them flat on pallets and they'd be reassembled in Scotland. I've heard about that happening to that space delay disappeared because there's so few Cooper's and Cooper just left in Scotland, so there's no one left who can do that anymore. So that's a big obstacle, as well. They just aren't skilled. Cooper's to the same degree. Sir. Once once 39:03 you don't think people you're knocking them down you're like, Okay, one to the name numbering the stays like this out. It's got an order but now it actually takes like, 39:11 Yeah, but either like an Ikea box. Yeah. 39:12 And there's no direction and some places. The we did number the stage but it's still hard right and never get them tight again with specialized equipment and knowledge. 39:24 Yeah, I mean, even going through there and watching the process of you know, first actually having somebody Oh, you mean you have everything that comes from using the planning to knowing exactly the grade and exactly the angle of all these different stages need to be. So that's actually that's probably step five of the process yet everything between there, but then yes, it actually comes to the person where he is pushing or looking at eight to 10 staves at one time and knowing exactly like it's a it's a game of Jenga or a puzzle and I'm playing you watch new battles being done which the slaves are straight on to you. Berlin you're doing it when I heard it. It's that much harder. 40:03 Yeah and then David probably likes as well or do you think 40:06 it's harder harder to actually physically manage on the straight stage you can make stand up with curved one it's it's trickier. 40:15 Yeah. It's It's It's like putting together like a pile of bricks. It felt 40:19 like when you return something out of a box, you're like, how did this damn thing? 40:23 You know exactly. Then you're like, no way. You'll never get it. And exactly, 40:28 yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, the economies in itself, but I always it did make sense to say let's just break come on down. We'll ship the ship, the hoops will ship staves and then reassemble over there. But now you say it. It's like yeah, once once you do have basically because we saw the process of what it actually takes to bend the wood where you steam it and then once in steamed and it's and it's kind of like an imperfect form that it goes into a machine where it actually does it, it bends it and then somebody sits there and puts the first coupon. You put the Second, third hoops on and then from there, it starts going through more of the, the toasting and in quality control process after that, too. Yeah. So also kind of talk about the quality control because that's it's always a huge factor of making sure that your customers are happy, right? Knowing that you're not going to be shipping out a barrel that's going to be leaking. Yeah, because we've we've had barrels, you go to the workout the Rick house and you're like, nope, shut this one's empty. Yes. 41:25 A nightmare. Yes, we do an air, air and water pressure tests, we pump about 20 psi of air into the barrel and we have a few inches of water in the bottom. So if there are any leaks will see them bubbling out. If they're small green leaks or not or something we might be able to do a quick repair with a wooden smile. Otherwise, if it's something more major, like a poor estate or something, we'll take that Steve out, open the battle back up and do a repair. You know, we're pretty conscientious about that because we have to be you know, everyone's making a good battle. Nice. So you can't have a winner there. 42:01 Yeah, I scared the shit out, man. They're like, those things and like the bug just pops off is like 42:09 what happened? Somebody give me 42:10 alert next time. Keep on your toes. But yeah, for sure. Yeah. 42:14 So talk about some of the your customers and, you know, we got a lot of local brands looking at Yeah. And why they chose you over somebody else or, you know, 42:25 we are I think there is a an attraction to having a local cooperation. We have a lot of local customers that like the fact that we're nearby, you know, it's efficient. And also, if there are any issues were right here enough, they need a barrel. Quickly. We can we can do it. We can help them out. A lot of them opened up during the barrel shortage and they couldn't get barrels anywhere. So they chose us. Yeah. Right Place right time. Right, exactly. But, you know, I think that local aspect is kind of an old fashioned where you would have a local Cooper local cooperage that you work So we do very, very well with Louisville distilleries you know the you know, rabbit hole peerless angels and directors all those guys are very good customers coppering kittens I mentioned as well. So you know, those are all great and that for us getting feedback regularly is really good having access to the spirit as it ages, you know being able to taste it is great for us to make sure we're doing things right. 43:28 What you mentioned age right there talk about because I'm not too sure how many other products that are out there that have high age statements of them were Calvin Coolidge barely kind of talk about some of those because you name some of them that you did, and some of those are kind of like less than four years old. So yeah, is there anything that is is beyond that at this point, 43:46 um, what peerless is bourbon will be for. 43:50 And then we do have other customers we have customers overseas that are doing longer, extended aging, and some finishing as well with are new barrels and are used barrels. So people are to all sorts of different things. We, when craft first started taking off, we were doing a lot of 25 gallon barrels, you know, kind of half size and people wanted quick aging. They wanted to get product on the shelves, start some cash flow running. So we were doing a lot of 25 people seem to have graduated up to 50 threes now, which is kind of everyone's preferred size. There's something magical discounts on it has to be like 44:32 maybe 30. That's sort of Yeah, 44:35 we're getting there. It was proposed and there was a big backlash. Yeah. So I think there's still comment period on that. But so we were doing less and less 25 more and more 50 threes. There's something magical about that. And I think people now are kind of seeing less young whiskey on the market. I think people are have the wherewithal to be patient and wait Three, four years. 45:01 From a from a process point of view. Is it more difficult to say okay, we're going to do a 25 gallon barrel run versus saying we're just gonna standardize on 53 and call it a day. So 45:11 it's 25 so tough, you know, they're smaller, they're physically more demanding, you're bending over a lot more. So 20 fives are actually more expensive than 50 stories just because we can make fewer in a day Yeah. 45:25 And that commits and now it makes sense why peerless is so damn good at three years old. Your barrel? 45:30 Yeah. You know, and then some of them did release early earlier than they thought they would. Because of the battle because I don't think it's that toasting. Plus john. Yeah, on natural fires, I think it does speed things up a bit for if you want that, that option. So it gives you a distill it a bit more flexibility. 45:51 So now I just kind of like the wheels are kind of turned to my right here. So I'm gonna I'm gonna go back to like your your your brother and your father. And starting this. I know that they had had apprenticeships in and doing Cooper jiying and stuff like that. Now it was a lot of their stuff in just repair. 46:11 Yeah. And then Scotland is typically repairing us barrels. 46:14 And then So at what point who was who was the mentor taught anybody to say, this is how we build barrels. This is how we're going to do things 46:21 would be my brother kind of figured on his on his own. Yeah. 46:26 What kind of like YouTube videos 46:30 for YouTube, unfortunately. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not sure how he how he went about that. That, you know, I think part of his training would have led him to that, you know, they do a lot of training on different sizes of barrels and different techniques. I think he would have just figured it out. I'm sure there was a lot of trial and error in the beginning that happily out. I wasn't here for 46:55 I'll swoop in. Yeah, let me know when you got everything. 46:58 Yeah. Sit Back in and run a business at that point right now. Absolutely. And not only that is you know, I kind of want to talk about the growth of like, where do you Where do you kind of see this going because today you know, you talked about that you know, it is a smaller cooperage and some of them are out there. However, you know, we took a we took a tour there's, there's barrels just entering and leaving like constantly it's it's a it's a constant flow. And I'm sure there's gonna be a point where you think you'd be busting at the seams Do you feel that that 47:30 that point coming and and what could possibly be the Yeah, we've been feeling that for about eight years now. And we just keep rolling with it you know, it's been an incredible boom whiskies been on not only bourbon, but scotch and Irish whiskey, which is a big driver of our US barrel market. You know, we were grew up in Scotland's so you learn to be pessimistic, so we expected that and every day No, but it just keeps going. So knock on wood Yeah. It keeps going. 48:01 So I mean, is it so you're just kind of keeping the regular turn going? 48:05 Yeah, you know, we're always looking to grow. If you're not growing, you're losing ground. So, you know, we're upgrading equipment all the time looking at new markets all the time. Making sure we're securing enough oak all the time, you know, it's a constant, constant battle. Yeah, talk about securing a little bit because I would imagine that you know, it's not like the new construction of a house market where that's probably a lot more demanding than what it is to get, you know, Oak for for barrels, but kind of talk about how sourcing would plays into a lot of it. You know, it's tricky just because the production capacities increased so much over the last few years, these new mega Cooper does keep being built that, you know, China's got a lot of barrels and need a lot of states. So, competition for the stave logs is fierce. We work with four or five stage Mills that we've worked with for years. And they're pretty loyal to us. They're typically second generation businesses like us. So there's a lot of commonalities. We work well together. So we've we've enjoyed the first shortage, we were able to keep going and grow our production. So we're hoping that we're well positioned to keep doing that. But you know, competition for those logs. It's It's tough. prices are going up. So and then if you have a wet winter, and you can't get into the forest, that complicates matters as well. 49:28 I didn't know that was a thing. Yeah. We just went there too. Oh, yeah. Yeah, 49:32 yeah. And it has an effect on getting logs at the forest. So you know, you have a bit of seasonality and shortages, which you have to try and plan for. Do prices reflect that as well. When you when you're trying to find an open market like as in as insane like, oh, sorry, we couldn't get there. So our logs are our staves are now x versus y. Yeah, the state die. Pants price increases on to us, we have a hard time. montoro 50:02 typical now business and so when you when you talk about just prices in general so Ryan and I we want to go and we want to want to buy barrels for for whiskey brand and this could be anybody that wants to start a new brand and they want to come to you kind of what's what's where do you start off like how how do you figure out? Is it 10 barrels? Is it 100 barrels? Yeah Where do we catch you at breakers or baseline? It's just no 50:26 glams Well, we we have customers that buy one or two barrels at a time and we've customer to buy 10s of thousands at a time so you know we run the gamut. No order to smaller to large. 50:38 It sound like a hater man. 50:43 But what's what's an average cost of a barrel. It's just a run of the mill. We are on a new barrel. We are not the cheapest producer out there. Because vol volumes are smaller and our barrels different so we're you're over $200 a barrel with us. Yeah, and you know, you can do under 200 other places. And we know that we don't try and compete on that lower price. And because we're not making barrels for the big legacy distillers we're making for craft guys. 51:17 And you feel like that's a good niche to kind of carve out in regards to that because you can, you can kind of create something that's a more of a unique spin on on the typical 51:26 Yeah, and it's more interesting for us rather than just one trip down to Boston, so and all our products in one fell swoop, you know, that's not very interesting. 51:37 It's like a good thing, and it's a bad way I'm sure. I'm sure it keeps it interesting. The other thing it's kind of like, Man, it's a lot of phone calls. Yeah, 51:43 exactly. Yeah. And a lot of freight and shipping logistics, but you know, that's fine. Kim's been busy. Now. It definitely keeps you busy. I'm sure sure we get a good CRM database. People everyone was not a customer. 52:01 Mine's all an Excel spreadsheet. That's how I work. That's a Google Sheets. It's our we're the same way. I have to deal with 2000 peoples. Okay, 52:08 I gotta get a hybrid system to keep track of them all. I'm sure Calvin's not far behind that, too. I mean, it's, it's true. It's a, it's a growing industry. And, I mean, even if we're looking at a lot of the bottles and tables around here, you've got a lot of customers. And it's not it's not just the big brands, it's it's people that are trying to carve out a new place in the market. And so you do have a lot of people that are trying new things, and I know that you're, you're helping them do that. So kind of give us your take on the market in regards of secondary finishing, because I know that is, you know, you source a lot of these girls, and some people look at it as a as a way to kind of make that differentiation into the marketplace to 52:50 Yeah, I think it's a great move for bourbon. Some, you know, they've been doing it in Scotland and Ireland for a long time, kind of that blood Tradition. And I think this finishing is a part of that and extension of that. And I think it's a good thing for, you know, people over here to be experimenting with, you taste some of the stuff that's coming out, you know, that forget we mentioned before that taste great barrel Bourbons, different expressions. They're all something different. You know, I think it's a great day, Jeff Taylor. 53:26 Yeah, 53:27 yeah. So you know, I think it's great. And it gives us something interesting for us to be involved in something different. So we like that. 53:36 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's, you've got, you've got two sides of the market here. You've got you've got the people that look at it and saying, Oh, it's a non distilling producer. They want to they want to cover up they want to mask you know, whatever it is that they're buying. I kind of looked at as the other side to say, as a non distilling producer. You can't just come out with something that is just like everything else. 53:56 Yeah, you can't. You can't get away with untransparent you know, people expect to know what's in the bottle. And so you have to tell them, You can't i can't hide it anymore. The way people were doing, you know, six, seven years ago. Yeah, 54:12 as loving, it's a much more savvy market out there. You know, there's even people now that they go to distilleries, and they go and look at where cast is, and, and they'll see the Kelvin Cooper's logo on there. Yeah, and they're gonna know it, they're gonna understand exactly where it comes from, like, so. So the name is getting out there a lot more. All these podcasts are 54:32 like, every week, you 54:35 know, and it's definitely cool to see that and see the growth of what's been happening, you know, not only just to the growth of, of your cooperage, but just to the bourbon industry as well. If we start looking at 10 years down the line, when you kind of see Calvin at that point. 54:53 That's a tough one. 54:54 I've been here for what 18 is that 54:56 I don't know where the market will be that that's the tricky bit Yeah, you know, will we still be booming? Will Scotland and Ireland still be booming if people keep drinking will be fine? But it's a tough one. Yeah, I mean, I don't even know what the market will look like next year. But you know, we're, we're gonna know. But 10 years is a tough one. Yeah. 55:19 I don't know. 55:21 So the nice thing is about, you know, you get to win. There's the distillers they have to forecast like even farther down the line. So the nice part is you get the money, like right now. Somewhat some way because they're like, here's the build it today. So tomorrow, yeah, 55:37 yeah. And then wait for payment. Yeah. 55:40 I know that part. Yeah. That 30s they kill you sometime? Yeah, it's 55:44 longer not exist in this industry. 55:48 I'm sure. But you know, I wanted to say thank you so much for coming on the show today. It was 55:53 my pleasure. Thank you. 55:54 I mean, it was really for us and giving us a tour of the operation the facility because I I don't think that you're open to the public for a lot of people just to come in and look at it. 56:03 Oh no, we're not for obviously. Yeah. 56:05 Bring your black sheep. 56:07 Yeah. Yeah makes your flip flop. Yeah make sure you send the emails way beforehand. Yeah, you come with some steel toed boots. Yes nothing because it is. It is an actual factory. It is a it is a 56:17 working for profit. cooperage 56:20 Yes. Exactly. Yeah, there's, there's no Hey, everybody, grab your heart. Let's go ahead. station number one over here. No, none of that. No, but like I said, it was fantastic able to do that. In again, give us the idea of not only the scale but the craftsmanship that goes on here. It's it's not a it's not an automated line where you're just pumping stuff out just to pump it out. But instead there's there's a lot of detail that's paid attention by the people that are better actually taking care of it day by day. So thank you again for doing that. If people want to know more about Kelvin cooperage online social media Anything like that How did they find out more about battle bridge calm? There you go. Yeah, 57:04 easy enough and there's some videos on there to get an idea of what we're doing 57:08 and if you need if you need barrels he already told you the price so yeah, just take that 57:12 multiplied by whatever you need on the ground and do the math man. How many we need? 57:17 We've got them will load your car up. 57:19 Yes. I got my truck good. 57:21 I don't come with a Honda Civic. That I can tell you. We put them in there before 57:26 yeah. Oh, yeah. How that workout type 57:30 ratchet strap. Yeah. 57:33 Yeah, very cool. Yeah, it's, it's like I said in the beginning, I mean, we've been other cooperages. It's so automated. This is like truly like an art like you can see like the individual craftsmanship and each barrel and it's like pretty cool. Like 57:46 to kind of see that all stepping back in time. 57:49 It is it is it's like amazing and it like and now when I drink a glass walls all I will vividly remember all those, you know, all the work and everything that's kind of gone. In into that glass so no it's a very much appreciate giving us the time and thank you opportunity to see everything and glad business as well and hope it keeps going well for all of us. Yeah, otherwise we won't show up again. 58:14 For sure. So make sure you check out Kevin Cooper's calm and you can find out more about them if you want to follow us of course bourbon pursuit on all the socials. And as well as if you like the show, you can help support it be a part of our community patreon.com slash bourbon pursuit. Again, thank you so much for joining us and we'll talk to everybody next week. Transcribed by https://otter.ai

This weeks guest is Serena Sabala. Serena is a Wellness Coach, Certified Yoga Teacher and Plant Based Nutrition Consultant who has studied the subject of nutrition for over ten years and has a unique, holistic approach to health and wellness. When she was only 8 years old her father, a very successful and busy entrepreneur, got really sick: unfortunately he didn’t have the tools to take care of his own well being and therefore crumbled under the pressure of owning a multi million euros business. This led to him loosing everything he had worked so hard for, with huge consequences for him and the whole family. As a result of her childhood experiences, Serena has developed an interest in well being practices which started at a very young age. Today, she works passionately to help leaders be strong and fit so they can be healthy and satisfied and can continue to have a positive impact within their organizations and the communities around them. Serena is also very passionate about bringing wellness to the workplace, since many people spend most of their waking hours at work: she believes that “employees who are cared for, care more” and that companies who put the well being of their employees at the forefront of what they do, are more successful than average.Links: Website: https://www.wholeshiftwellness.com/ Free PDF report download: https://mailchi.mp/dd15b33cf12f/freepdf7mistakes IG: https://www.instagram.com/wholeshiftwellness/ FB: https://www.facebook.com/wholeshiftwellness/welcome back to the fuel your legacy podcast. Each week we expose the faulty foundational mindsets of the past and rebuild the newer, stronger foundation essential in creating your meaningful legacy. We've got a lot of work to do. So let's get started. As much as you like this podcast, I'm certain that you're going to love the book that I just released on Amazon if you will, your legacy, the nine pillars to build a meaningful legacy. I wrote this to share with you the experiences that I had while I was identifying my identity, how I began to create my meaningful legacy and how you can create yours. You're going to find this book on Kindle, Amazon and their website Sam Knickerbocker com.Welcome back to fuel your legacy. And as always, we're bringing the best the brightest people from all over the world who have a story to tell a legacy to share and are on a mission to help you in your lives and benefit from their life lessons. So today we're going to be speaking with Savannah Savannah. She is currently over in the UK but originated from Italy, and spent a little bit of time in the states here in the land of Texas, which is always a good place to be if you like hot, humid weather. But the cool thing about her and what she has been able to accomplish is she's the co-founder and co-founder of whole shift wellness, a coaching company specialized in bespoke wellness programs for busy. People who are pressed for time high level entrepreneurs, business owners, people who think man, I just don't have time for that I'm too busy, obsessed with my goals. I know that's you who are listening. You're obsessed with your goals, you're obsessed with chasing down that next big shiny thing that you just want to accomplish. And sometimes we forget to take care of ourselves. So she's gone into the depths based on over 20 years of combined experience in the industry. So Dana And her husband Eugene have developed a proven methodology to transform you into your most fit, healthy, confident self. And if that's not what you need, then they will call me and we can have you on the podcast because as far as I know, everybody wants to be more confident, more healthy, fitter. And if you can do that within one year of your life, change you're you change your life in one year, now you have the rest of your life to start living. So thank you, Savannah, for being on here. Go ahead and introduce yourself. Let us know about where you came from, and why you decided to go and be an entrepreneur and start your own business and what that looks like today.Thank you so much for the brilliant introduction. And thank you for having me. So yes, I mean, the seed of wellness was planted in my consciousness at a very young age. And it was sadly a result of trauma when I was only eight years old. My father, who was an incredibly successful entrepreneur, business owner, he invented a profession that didn't even exist before his time. That's how successful he was. And he grew his business to several million euros in revenue in a very short time. However, I now know didn't have the tools to be able to take care of himself was also juggling all the responsibilities of his fast-paced life. He was creative so he always kind of high demands from his creativity and his profession. He had a young family loads of employees to take care of. And so his health and well being got constantly put on the back burner. Until sadly when I was eight, my dad was sick, and as a result of his illness, lost everything he had worked so hard to build over his entire life. including his business and, and these events had a profound effect on my life as a child. And they planted the seed in my mind very young that the genuinely isn't anything more valuable and more important than your health and will be your entire life rests upon it. You're Own Business if you're whether you're a business owner, if you work for somebody else, your career rests upon your level of health and well being any and there are there isn't enough money in the world to pay for it once you've lost them. So I became present with the fact with the concept and with the idea that prevention genuinely is the best, fastest, quickest, cheapest secure when it comes to health and well being because my dad hasn't ever written Covered fully since. So this is these are kind of in a nutshell the events that planted the seed in my mind and I wasn't conscious of the time but I became interested in learning discovering, exploring as many modalities as possible to take the best possible care of myself above all else. And to do so before I did anything else in life. And so I started delving into it I am a passionate, passionate student of nutrition I've studied and tried all formulas under the roof and this has allowed me to kind of cut through the stuff that doesn't work to identify. You know the pillars about imbalance nutrition. I'm also a certified yoga teacher and fitness trainer and answer prep and surprisingly I married in the field of My husband himself, he is a certified therapeutic massage, yoga teacher and PT with over 20 years of experience running his training business. However, with all that said, and I, for many years in my life, I thought that health and wellness was a passion. And it was just a hobby. It was something that was generally really passionate about and that I enjoyed exploring and delving into and learning about. But it wasn't until my late 20s that I started getting these kinds of feelings, thoughts, and emotions that I could turn this lifelong passion into a profession and make a living out of it. And when I started working when I was only 18 years old, and I progressed into the fashion industry, to a very good level, I had a great career in the fashion industry and moved to London and progress even further. And I already I was at the point where I had my best job. And I was in a serious relationship. You know, we owned a house, we were going to get married and everything was pretty, pretty good on paper. And I was only 828 years old at the time. So it was quite young had accomplished quite a lot at quite a young age. And that's when I go this massiveto become a yoga teacher and to start sharing my passion for health and wellness with others. And interestingly, what happened at that junction and that was the year 2012. And I will never forget, is that my life as I knew it started falling apart as a result of this decision that I made of becoming a certified yoga teacher. And so my relationship started falling apart as a result of it and I had to quit my job to do my teacher training and I had to sell my house to my ex-boyfriend and settle my belongings because I was going to the states for some months to become a certified yoga teacher. And I was lucky enough to have a little bit of savings, from my job and the sale of the property. And so I was like, you know why I think the universe is pulling me in a different direction right now and I, I'm not entirely sure where I'm headed, but I kind of I'm gonna follow this lead and see where it goes. And so I decided to just take a one-year hiatus from my fashion career, I'm going to become a yoga teacher and explore my passion for health and well being. And, frankly, I've never looked back. I never went back to fashion afterward. Shortly thereafter, I met my husband who is also passionate about health and well-being self and we decided to start our own company together to transform the world being of busy professionals. I knew that that was the nice For me, because of my story with my dad essentially what I am doing now is nothing other than empowering individuals to prevent them from ending up as my dad did. And put all my tools all hands on deck myself and my husband to avoid those scenarios from taking place because I know I we out profoundly impact the not only on the individuals affected but the entire communities around. And so and the year 2019 this is where you find me now having developed a fully-fledged business all revolving around my passion.I love it. But it's just so interesting and fascinating to hear people's stories in the way that life works out and winds people into exactly where they're supposed to be. And it sometimes it's the most unlikely path to there. I have I know somebody who went to school to be a fashion designer out in California. And about halfway through school if it was even that much she found the financial industry and ended up going from fashion into finance just doesn't seem like the natural progression of things. But with that progression, she's now a wildly financially successful has an office right on Wall Street in, in, in New York, and it's just really made a name for herself all over the news become a professional. And I think that that says a lot about sometimes we don't always know where we're supposed to be. I have a quick question here. When you say your dad lost everything from his business. So there's, we're, we're used to hearing from a lot of different business owners and different business people and they'll have a story to tell what exactly happened that made your dad lose his business due to his health.So my dad was that organized with bipolar disorder, which is a mental health condition that just for those who don't know about it, what happens when you, when you become ill, is there you swing from moments of terrible depression, where you're not even able to get up from your bed to moments of peak of manic behavior and euphoria, where you are completely out of control and out of bounds. And because of this massive swings in moods, my dad couldn't not only Couldn't he couldn't manage his business any longer, but one of the most invasive side effects of the manic phases is that for most people suffer from them is that you spend all the money that you have and then some So at the very beginning of my dad's illness, When he was just newly diagnosed and we're talking about the early 90s back in system is really where I'm from. There wasn't a lot of common knowledge around this disease of what he was like and what he meant. So my dad kind of run-up has a through the business and family finances like we ended up bankrupt the whole, my entire family, not just business because he lost everything under those name and everything was under his name. So we lost all our homes, everything. And we had to move in with my grandparents. And it was a direct result of this complete loss of control in behavior that caused them to spend all the money that he had and ended up in massive debt.Yeah, no, I think I think that that is a key thing here. It's It's interesting. It's often overlooked, and I think it's something to be aware of many, many, many of the most creative, talented people on this planet suffered in one form or another from some form of mental disorders. Yeah. And in every area of life, and I believe this wholeheartedly, in every area of life, there's going to be a thing that Well, there's just we are who we are. And there are good things about our attributes. And some things maybe are not as good about our attributes. And it's the balance of life to determine how to maximize the good and protect against the bad. And so when you're setting up a business, or anything, if you're aware that you have those tendencies and then before you go build a big business, but I want you to build a big business, but before you do that, set some safety guards inside of the system. Because that way, even if you are struggling with this, I think a greatI forget what it's called, I think it's a beautiful mind.My needs revolving around mental illness what it is isthere's one with the what's his name Will Smith that just came out two or three years ago. And he's the creator of this business who his family died. And so he's kind of off the rails but because the other people in the company had enough control and knew how to how to safeguard that from going off to put and then he was able to manage that I think that's important to think about, okay, how can I set myself up with safeguards to really make sure that I'm not going to be irresponsible with something so that's, that's just a business trip or even a family trip really, because this goes into like estate planning, medical directives, custody agreements, power of attorneys, because you never know when you're going to be indisposed through medical or out of the country or whatever. You never know. When you're not gonna be able to do that, so that's a big business tip right there to get that stuff under control, and specified why you still are healthy enough to do so.This is it's a brilliant trip and a very important point to raise because especially for creatives, because I'm generalizing of us was slightly but it is quite common that when you are the creative mind behind the business, you're also likely not to be that into the financial management of the business. And one of the biggest mistakes that my dad did, and it's easy to say in hindsight, is that he was not capable of handling the financial side of the business, even when he was well, even before he fell ill that was not his strength. It was not anything that he should have ever done because he wasn't he was not his calling. It wasn't what he was meant to be doing. He was creative and he needed to only focus That. And I think part of what put a massive strain on him was trying to do everything for himself, even the things that you know, for within his realm of expertise and inclination. And there was an element of egotism involved where you have to do it all in itself. But I think and some business owners and I find myself guilty of that sometimes we have that tendency of wanting to tick all the boxes ourselves and wanting to do everything ourselves. We think that that's what makes us great when I think the greatest leaders out there are those, like you said, recognize their limitations, and I'm good at hiring people are even better than themselves at fulfilling those roles and delegating appropriately.Yeah, no, I completely agree. And I think it's, that's kind of different. Henry Ford was great at that delegation like he did not fill his mind with anything he didn't want in there. So I can hire somebody to have that knowledge. But I do believe it's possible. Its egotistical part of it is just as somebody who I'm not nearly that creative, I wouldn't say, but I don't like being curtailed. I don't like my creativity when I choose to be creative. I don't want it to be somebody putting limits on it. So it's hard when you're running a business as a creative person, you have to release some sort of control. So when you have these creative ideas, then somebody can tell you Yeah, that's a good idea. Bad idea. And we, in America, we deal with this with our president, where you have this guy who's just a little bit nuts, and he has lots of ideas. And some of them are okay. And so most of them arenot okay. Andthe best thing that he could do is have people around him who say, No, that's a bad idea. Let's not do that one, right, or we'd be in a mess. But every once in a while, you have a great idea and it helps. And so, for those creative types, structuring your environment with people who are willing and able to curtail you And help you stay within bounds is actually really, really beneficial. So thanks for bringing that into this conversation. Because I think that's the first time and all my podcasts I've been able to have this conversation. But I think it's important to have. There are a few things that I love that you said when you're telling your story, just one-liners I want to point out and that is, prevention is the best cure for health. So many people don't believe that so many people think oh, it's not that bad my habits, my daily habits, my lifestyle. It's not that and it's, quote, unquote, not that bad until it, there's an emergency and it is that that and so prevention, having some foresight is important. And that goes just into a legacy that as well. If you're waiting till the end of your life to determine what your legacy is going to be. Your legacy is already been decided, sorry. Like prevention or preparation. Start thinking right now, what do I want my legacy to be? And then start living in that life. legacy. So that's a crossover topic or point that I wanted to highlight. Because it's so important. And then the next thing I want to talk about was your kind of heroes in the corporate ranks. But then you had to choose into this new identity what initially like because had your childhood experience, but if you're fully engaged in being a fashion designer and you're just loving it everything in life is going good. What was the story? What was the instance when that thought came? what sparked the thought I really would rather be doing health I'd rather be doing this other thing. what sparked that thought?Yeah, that's it's a great question. And I think although he felt like it happened in a moment, it was probably a combination of a process that developed over a period of time. I think I'd like to first start to clarify that I went into fashion at a young age, not driven by passion, necessarily as much as I was driven because I wasn't in the creative side of fashion, I was into wholesale sales. So so he was strictly corporate. And he was a choice driven by necessity because of my family history. I, I felt I had to go to work as soon as possible and earn my living and become independent and make my own money. And I didn't feel like I could afford the time and money to go to college. And I wanted to build a sense of solid independence pretty early on. So I went into it driven by a sense of duty and responsibility rather than passion. But I didn't question it and I still did pretty well. Although at some point into, I don't know, what I what I think is what happened is is that, you know, I became more secure and confident in myself through the years, to the point where I felt like I was able to listen to myself a little bit more rather than just do what was expected of me. And, and that's when yoga came into the picture and yoga is one of the modalities that has most profoundly transformed my life and my outlook of life simply through putting me in touch with myself and making me present with who I am and what I want. And so I started practicing it regularly for many years by knew from a very, very early on, say second or third class that this was something that because I was getting so much power of self-expression from it. It was something that I wanted to pass on to others. And eventually, at some point one year, this calling became almost unbearable. And I went from dreaming about and thinking and my goal one day, I used to think if I win the lottery, that's what I would do with myself and with the money. Any words from that kind of thinking, like almost like a dream, sort of thinking to think right? Do I even need to win the lottery, as I can just plan for this and make it happen? So it was a slow build-up. But it was all to do with having the courage and the confidence to listen to your inner self and to what you're feeling inside.I think that that is exactly true because you use great words and I think they're noble words of loyalty and like, why you went into that type of business. Right. Thank you. And this is not meant to be offensive right? And not that's not my goal, right. But I think it's fear that probably drove you there. the reason I say that is because the fear of what happened to your parents forced you into this is never going to happen to me. And that's not a very it's a natural progression human, we go from codependency where we're relying on somebody else. And when we see that fail, we shift into this almost dynamite mode of independency where we refuse to allow ourselves to suffer as we suffered from somebody else controlling our lives ever again. And so we create this ironclad independence, but there's no fulfillment in that independence because it's purely based out of fear protection and isolation rather than involvement abundance and, and connection. And, and so the big, they're getting to a point here of what I see the trend because this is not just the trend with Diana, but it's, I see this happened with many of my clients. That is because they've built their identity on fear and isolation. They get into these relationships with significant others and they seem to be good relationships, quote, unquote. However, when somebody identifies what fulfills them, and they start to express what fulfills them, then it comes out to that relationship never had any connection glue, and never had that interdependence that relying on each other. It was just a convenient place in time for two people to be rather than being in a relationship and some people will mistake this falling in love or this relationship that they've created. as an as a healthy relationship, when it's just not, there's not the connection there that's needed. And so yes, her as she shifted her identity, and it will impact your relationships as you shift your identity as a listener. It's going to impact your relationship. there's going to be people in your life, who choose out of your life and where you're going. And it's okay. It's not, it's not hard feelings towards them. Hopefully, they don't have hard feelings towards you. It's okay. But it's more important that you learn to be fulfilled and follow your heart and your passion than to be somewhere and this is contrary to a lot of people. They think divorce is never good. You should never get divorced or whatever I think if your identity changes and they're not really in there for your identity change, then it's just going to be miserable. Try and stay together anyways. It's not healthy for you, the kids for anybody.Absolutely. This is massive and you're right. I mean that the life that I had built up until age 28 was a protection mechanism against the trauma of my childhood, you know, and I went in for security, stable job, the stable relationship, I bought a house very, it was all the stuff that I was looking for this sense of like a routing me down and giving me a false sense of security fundamentally because I was looking for security outside of myself. So I was, I was looking for the boyfriend to make me feel secure the job to make me feel secure the house to make me feel secure. And I ended up at a very young age, 28 years old, with everything set on paper, all the things that I dreamed of my whole life that I felt were going to fulfill me and make me feel whole and secure, realizing that actually, none of it was truly what I was after. And it was pretty wild and quite controversial, to take a step literally a step into the unknown because that's what I did. And I am grateful to the universe for giving me the strength to make that decision. But I can honestly say and as I said to you, my entire life crumbled apart literally as you said, some relationships I choose to go. I like my entire life either as I knew it, what didn't exist anymore and I didn't know what was going to come after that. But it was the single most powerful and impactful thing I have ever done in my life was to make that courageous step and follow my heart no matter what. And I'm not saying people should be reckless and just throw things out the window. I, I did. It was done responsibly, but it was still pretty radical. And the moment I dared to just stay true to myself on my calling, all the wrong relationships, left my life and relationships that were even greater than what I could have ever imagined and to my life and a career that was even better than I could have ever imagined. entered my life but I had to create This space first and I had to kind of let allow for the unknown to be for a few months. So it's, it's very true and it can be quite traumatic and quite scary. But my, my own experience tells me that I have now I wouldn't choose another way to leave than that. It's, it's the only way to true fulfillmentI completely agree. So I'm going to call it another these are like deeper level concepts. I don't talk about these concepts very often on here. So hopefully you're getting a lot out of this your listener, whoever's listening but so anytime you're seeking validation outside of yourself, and you said it perfectly. It was a defense mechanism to your outside world. And the only reason that we feel as though we need a defense mechanism Because we're choosing into a victim mentality, we're choosing to believe that other things can and will happen to us. And when we're in, in a mindset that other people are responsible for what happens to me, then we have a need then to defend ourselves against those things that might happen. And so the very act of this defense mechanism or any defense mechanism is in reality and a symptom of a victim mentality. And people don't always connect that I think know, I'm creating these defense mechanisms. I'm in creation. I know you're in victimhood, and you're running scared. And you think that if you can defend it enough, all of this, that you'll have time or that you'll be safe, but there's no safety if there's no peace inside and so true creation always comes from within creation can't be for On you something nobody else can hold you accountable to create or make you're responsible for creation. Creation comes from your inner light, your inner identity being fully expressed, that's creation. And outside of that when you're putting in these defense mechanisms, it's, it's living in a victim mentality and choosing into that belief. And the more you choose into that belief, the less happiness you can achieve. Because the more happiness the more percentage of your happiness you're giving away to other circumstances. So just a really deep concept that if you have more questions about it, please reach out to me or, or Serena. But understanding that and being able, to coach somebody through that, specifically in their health is huge. I mean, because health is again, probably one of the biggest areas where we have this victim mentality,a hundred percent and he shows up as runs in the family it shows up as it's my idea. It's in my DNA, it shows up as I've inherited it from my mom or my dad, or it shows up as this is what we do in my culture. You know, it shows up as all these kinds of expressions that we use, almost to just which are equivalent to a complete loss of power. Because the moment you put whatever the responsibilities for that element, either on your genes or on your family or on a red Terry kind of passed on to generation how they were Have you immediately what you're implying, unconsciously telling yourself is that it's completely outside of your control, and there's nothing you can do about it. We're researching shows now that you can even change the expression of your genes. Through lifestyle choices, so so you can actually if you are born with a gene that makes you predisposed to any illness, you're only a certain percentage more likely to manifest their illness. But what will determine whether you manifest it or not, is how you choose to live your life day by day from when you're born till the day you die. So the single most impactful thing that you can do, rather than taking a DNA test and go run wild, and don't get me wrong, there's a place for those. But I think sometimes people use them as a means to justify or find excuses for what they like to believe they can't change themselves. Whereas I believe that there is nothing that you can't change and improve on by the choices that you make every single day.Yep, absolutely. And that's that belief is why she's on the podcast because that belief is what inspires somebody to go create a legacy and have meaning. So I'm curious, what would you say if you had to focus on one specific habit, mindset or behavior that you used most in the creation of your legacy? What would it be? And how could we adopt that into our lives? So the single there's two of the most impactful things that I find myself using time and time and time again. One is gratitude. And create and we're talking about mindfulness practices here. I'm not gonna go into the specifics of health practices, but we believe in our practice our whole shift wellness that you're born, like the seed to a beautiful tree with all the potential that you need within you to become that beautiful tree. But then it's down to creating the right environment you know, and nurturing this tree and so that become strong and healthy, but you're not. So nothing is missing. Nobody has anything missing to become the fittest, healthy and confident self, what your greatest potential is already within you. I'm not going to give you that. I'm just gonna help you discover it and answer. So with that little preface ever said, gratitude tends to be one of the most powerful mindfulness and mindset practices. Because most of us, especially high achievers, tend to be very focused on what's missing and what we need to achieve still and what still needs doing and I am guilty of that myself. Occasionally, we fail to appreciate what's already here, what we've already accomplished.What wasand for instance, what we've actually already done well, so the practice of gratitude and the practice and it is something that I do with our shifters, every single phone call of looking back at the week gone, and not using every single time that you did things as you intended and you did things right. And we call it leveraging your successes. Those are two of the greatest practices that I find transformed the mindset, especially for those who come to us. Having tried millions of different health and wellness things, you know, there's the world is full of them. Now, there are all sorts of fads, quick fixes, powders, shakes, diets, miracle products, miracle tools. So they talked to us quite this art and then a little bit motivated and they think that maybe something's wrong with them because they've tried all these many things and nothing seems to work. The moment we start focusing on being grateful and appreciative of what they already have in their lives rather than always seeking something more. And leveraging their successes, noticing the things that they get right every week so that they can become motivated to do even better. Yeah, the mindset to transform itself and he shifts into as you said yourself out of the victim mentality and that kind of negative mindset into an empowered mentality, which is going to lead to even more powerful actions.Yeah, the something I picked up on throughout that kind of the idea of the kind of what you're saying, or how I put it, in my own words is, and you said this, but not giving people a solution, not giving people their identity, but helping them discover it. And I think that that is so crucial, because especially in health coaching, and you see this all the time, I see it all the time with some of the other coaches I work with, but these people They can be decent and on a plan, and I'm definitely guilty of this, I'm not even gonna pretend that I'm not. I'm guilty of this, that when it comes down to exercising if I have somebody there who's creating a plan and handed me a plan, then I can exercise I have no problem. I can just do whatever they tell me to do. But the moment that they're not there anymore, I feel like I don't know what I'm doing. Right. And that's very common with people in the health industry. And it's because we are, I'm using myself as an example here. I choose to say, Well, I need this person to help me write because it's not in me to naturally be good at my health or be good with my exercise or do these things and because that's a story that I tell myself and then the result is that whenever there's somebody not telling me what to do, then I don't feel that I have the power. I subconsciously don't feel like I have the power to get out and have the motivation and do what I need to do for you. They know how to do what I need to do. Even though that person just reading off a piece of paper, I could just as easily read off this paper. But because that person reading off the paper and telling me that I'm more likely to do it, it's dumb psychology, right? That's just humans. I'm one of them. I'm a human. Okay. And, but it's interesting, because that's the power of, if you're coaching somebody, if you can help them discover inside themselves, the power that they already have, that's a subtle way of helping them shift out of victim mentality into the powerful identity of creation, is I'm not here to give you something, I can't be still on you. Results I can't bestow on you these things. It's already in you. All I can do is show you where it is, potentially, and help you express it more fully. And I love that that's what you're doing in practice. I'm curious if people wanted to get in touch with you. I don't know if you're coaching all over the world, or if you keep it pretty localized to the UK, but how can we get in touch with you happily follow what you're doing. If you have books, read books, Like, how can we get more of Savannah?Yeah, so thank you for that. And my book is out in about a month. So I'll keep you posted once it is out and you by all means if you want to share it with your followers, I would love to let them know about it. The best way to get in touch Well, we have a website, of course, www dot whole shift wellness.com. And we have a lot of really cool tools on the websites for free some very expensive PDF reports and I'm really, really useful scorecard questionnaire, which is revolved around allowing you to score your level of development across what we've established are the three pillars of well being and giving you bespoke tips so that you can start building in new little active steps to start getting new results. And that's completely free. It only takes five minutes. So there's the best possibility The most useful tool from us available on the website that anybody can use, we do offer international packages, we have a pretty good client following thankfully in us because we used to live there so we tailor our services depending on whether we can see you in person or not. So that's something that we can do. But and I am very active on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn, my handle is at whole shift wellness. And so on Instagram for instance, I share weekly tips revolving around the three pillars of well-being focus on food and fitness, you know, loads of recipes, loads of nutrition information, live videos. So those are the kind of the main ways to get in touch.Awesome, I love it. So a lot of those links, they're going to be in here, and I know that we're recording this earlier. Bye, the time you're listening to these people, and her book will be out. So just go look for her book, remind me the name of it, make the shift, make the shift, and they'll be able to get that pretty much anywhere. Yes, awesome. For sure. Awesome. Okay, so now we're on to the second the last section here, one of my favorites. It's called legacy on rapid-fire. So I'm gonna ask you five questions. And looking for one word, one-sentence answers. I may ask you to further explain one of them. But yes, we're gonna ask five questions. One word, one-sentence answers. Are you ready to go?Let's do it.Awesome. Okay, what do you believe is holding you back from reaching the next level of your legacy today?fear,fear of what?fear of success.I think we tend to believe that we see we're fearful of failure more than we're fearful of being successful but being wildly successful can be quite intimidating. And scaring and you know, sometimes we are afraid of our bigness more than we are afraid of failing. And so that's, that's the one fear that I constantly have to challenge myself to overcome is the fear of being greater than I even think.Awesome. I love that answer. So what do you think the hardest thing you've ever accomplished has been?I would say moving to London at the age of 2021. For me to leave not speaking the language. I had enough money to sustain myself for a month. And I know I knew I couldn't rely on my family. It was I was very young, yet very driven, and I made it but if I look back, it was a very challenging experience and time in my life.Awesome. And what do you think the greatest success to this point in your life has beenfulfilling my dreams? If I think about some of the things that I've accomplished, they would dream back into days. And now they are my reality. I love thatlove that answer. What is one secret that you believe contributes most to your successis taking care of myself first and foremost before I take care of anybody else, essentially being selfish in a very selfless way. So being selfish for always having an abundance and overflow to give to those around me. I completely agree with that as one of the best things that I do daily, and you don't recognize how valuable it is until you come in contact with somebody who hasn't learned to take care of themselves. Then you're like, wow, your life is not going great.You should take some time for yourself and I can't you know, you have to like you can't afford to take time for yourself. SoI love that. Yeah, I believe it is selfish to neglect yourself. You know, and you justify it with righteousness. And feeling like you're doing a great job but you're failing everybody if you fail yourself whether you realize it or not, you are failing everybody around youcompletely agree. So what are two or three books that you would recommend to fuel your legacy audience?Wow. So the pleasure trap by Dr. Lyle is they're going to be healthy and wellness books for the most part but that's a very powerful book and protein a Holic by Dr. Garth Davis, Game-Changing book revolving around nutrition and breaking the habit of being yourself by Joe Dispenza. One of the greatest books I've ever read,possibly agrees I love Joe Dispenza he so much. He's like my people. I love listening to him. Okay, so this is my favorite question of all time, which is why it's at the end of my podcast cuz I want to leave everybody who listens to this on an awesome note fired up. And also thinking about the answer this question for themselves. And it's interesting to see are people who have been listening to my podcast over time, and how they've come and how they've started thinking about this and what they've created because I asked this question on my podcast, so I don't think it's ever going away. I love the question. The kind of scene or situation is we're going to pretend that you're dead. Okay, Savannah, you have denied, but you have the opportunity to come back and view your great-great, great, great, great-grandchildren, six generations from now sitting around a table discussing your life, what it meant, what you accomplished. What do you want your legacy to be? six generations from now?Wow, that's powerful. You know, one of my greatest passions at the moment, is to empower individuals to make the shift towards plant-based eating, to whatever extent they feel comfortable doing because I genuinely believe that it is a shift that is greater Then just a nutritional trend, it is a shift in human consciousness. And it is one of those game-changing transformations that humanity is going through that is going to propel us into a way higher level of evolution and the next phase of the expansion of humanity. So if six generations from now I was to be known as somebody who contributed to that shift towards people shifting to plant-based eating, that would make me happy and proud.Awesome. I love that love so much. Thank you so much for taking the time. I know we're like eight hours difference right now, which means it's later I guess it's like what? type here10 8 pm Okay,eight 8 pm in London right now. It's at about 2 pm here. So thank you so much for staying up late and helping share your knowledge. Bringing your expertise to feel your legacy audience. I love having that you're a part of this.It's my pleasure. Thank you for having me. Brilliant conversation. Thank you so much.No problem.Thanks for joining us. What you heard today resonates with you please like comment and share on social media tag me and if you do give me a shout out I'll give you a shout out on the next episode. Thanks to all those who've left a review. It helps spread the message of what it takes to build a legacy that lasts and we'll catch you next time on fuel your legacy.Connect more with your host Samuel Knickerbocker at:https://www.facebook.com/ssknickerbocker/?ref=profile_intro_cardhttps://www.instagram.com/ssknickerbocker/https://howmoneyworks.com/samuelknickerbockerIf this resonates with you and you would like to learn more please LIKE, COMMENT, & SHARE————————————————————————————————————Click The Link Bellow To Join My Legacy Builders Mastermindhttps://www.facebook.com/groups/254031831967014/Click here to check out my webinar as well! ————————————————————————————————————Want to regain your financial confidence and begin building your legacy?In this ebook you will learn:- The 9 Pillars To Build A Legacy- Clarify you “why”- Create Daily Action Steps To Launch ForwardWant Sam’s FREE E-BOOK?Claim your access here! >>> Fuel Your Legacy: The 9 Pillars To Build A Legacy————————————————————————————————————

When 11 year old Elise Sammis applied for the Food Network's Kids Baking Championship, she didn’t think twice about telling them - right up front - that she lives with type 1 diabetes. She says she wanted everyone to know in order to show that diabetes wouldn't keep her from her love of baking, or anything else. Check out Stacey's new book: The World's Worst Diabetes Mom! Turns out, there's another young woman with type 1 on the show this season! You can learn more about Naima Winston here. Stacey met Elise & her mom, Natalie, at an event in South Carolina. They spoke about the show, the stress and her diagnosis two years ago at Disney world. Join the Diabetes Connections Facebook Group! In TMSG - good news at the dentist - and it wasn’t about cavities.. and we'll share a story of a lot of spirit at Walt Disney World Marathon weekend. This podcast is not intended as medical advice. If you have those kinds of questions, please contact your health care provider. Sign up for our newsletter here ----- Use this link to get one free download and one free month of Audible, available to Diabetes Connections listeners! ----- Get the App and listen to Diabetes Connections wherever you go! Click here for iPhone      Click here for Android Episode transcript (rough transcription, please forgive grammar, spelling, punctuation) -----------Stacey Simms 0:00 Diabetes Connections is brought to you by One Drop created for people with diabetes by people who have diabetes, and by Dexcom take control of your diabetes and live life to the fullest with Dexcom. Announcer: This is diabetes connections with Stacey Simms. Stacey Simms 0:23 This week, when 11 year old Elise Sammis applied for the Food Network's kids Baking Championship. She didn't think twice about telling them right up front - she lives with Type 1 diabetes. Elise Sammis 0:36 No, that was very important to me, because I wanted like everyone to know that if you have diabetes, you can still do the things that you want to do. And it was super cool because there was another girl named Naima. She's my super good friend and she had also had type one, and she's super sweet. And we were both like, yay, we both have type one! Stacey Simms 0:52 That's right. There are two young women with T1D competing on this season of the show. I met Elise at an event recently, and I talked to her and her mom about the show the stress, enter diagnosis at Disney World in Tell me something good. Good news at the dentist and it's not about cavities and a lot of spirit at Walt Disney World marathon weekend. This podcast is not intended as medical advice. If you have those kinds of questions, please contact your health care provider. Welcome to another week of diabetes connections. I am so glad you're here. We aim to educate and inspire about type 1 diabetes by sharing stories of connection. I'm your host Stacey Simms. My son was diagnosed 13 years ago right before he turned two. The show this week is airing a little earlier than usual. Yeah, we almost always drop the interview show the longer show of the week on Tuesday. But because the Kids Baking Championship is on the Food Network on Monday nights. I thought it would just be fun to release the show with Elise on the day of her show. I love the baking shows, and we used to watch them. I feel like it was around the clock for a couple of years my daughter got into them right around the same age as Elise between the ages of like nine and 12. We've watched so many of these baking shows, we made cupcakes, we didn't ever compete. My daughter never wanted to be on TV like that. But it was great. And we certainly got a lot of comments about the cupcakes because I would post them on social media and I'll put some pictures up in the Facebook group because these were, you know, really big. I mean, they weren't beautiful, but they were sharks and cupcakes that look like popcorn and you know, all the dramatic fun stuff. And people would say all the time. Oh, it's too bad that your daughter has that hobby. What are you doing about your son? And I'm like, I'm not letting him eat 17 cupcakes, but I'm not letting her eat 17 cupcakes either. You know, it's fine with Type 1 diabetes, you just have to know exactly what you're eating. Right? It does take extra work. But now go ahead eat the cupcake. And with those memories right in the back of my mind, it was even more fun to talk to Elise and to Natalie It is always a bit dicey talking to reality show contestants. You know, we've done this before, and it is always fun. But it's not just about what they can't say because here obviously they can't talk about the show, even though it's taped weeks and weeks months ago, but because you never know they could win the whole thing. They could be off the show before this episode even airs. But I'm so thrilled that Elise is is one of two girls on the show with Type 1 diabetes and it was great to talk to her and her mom and no matter what happens on the show, she is well on her way quite a personality and really just a fun kid. All right, first Diabetes Connections is brought to you by One Drop and getting diabetes supplies is a pain and not only the ordering and the picking up, but also the arguing with insurance over what they say you need and what you really need. Make it easy with One Drop. They offer personalized test trip plans, plus you get a Bluetooth glucose meter, test strips, lancets and your very own certified diabetes coach. Subscribe today to get test strips for less than $20 a month delivered right to your door. No prescriptions or co pays required. One less thing to worry about. not that surprising when you learn the founder of One Drop lives with type one. They get it. One Drop, gorgeous gear supplies delivered to your door 24 seven access to your certified diabetes coach. learn more, go to diabetes connections dot com and click on the One Drop logo. My guests this week are Elisa Sammis and her mother Natalie. Elise is a contestant on this season's Food Network kids baking show. She was diagnosed with type one at age nine and we talked about her diagnosis. But she was already baking a lot by then. And luckily her family realized you can continue to bake and enjoy dessert even with Type 1 diabetes. Being on a big show like this is a great chance to educate and what's really fun is as we mentioned, Elise isn't doing it alone. There's another young woman on the show Naima Winston from Baltimore is her name and I will put some links and information on our episode homepage, where there is also a transcript about Elise about Naima about the show and more information. So please check that out. That's a diabetes dash connections.com. And while you're there, please note every episode from the last four years is there you may be intimidated to scroll through I get asked all the time, what's the best order? I actually think the best way to listen is either to use the search box and put in whatever interests you Disney, Dexcom, Tandem, Omnipod, right or you can search by category as well. If you click on the tab that says all episodes, you'll see another search box to the right and then filter by category. And that is a really great way to dial into what you want the categories including advocates, athletes, artists, actors, education, technology, travel, family, you know, there's a whole bunch of ways to narrow this down because we've got more than 270 episodes now Holy cow. And I really urge you to go take a stroll through and see what interests you. Quick note, this interview was done on the road, I was speaking at the JDRF chapter, the Palmetto chapter in South Carolina. So the sound quality is a little bit different than when I'm doing things in the studio. And I may be a little soft at times. I'll tell you about the technical nonsense that happened. I'll tell you about that at the end of the show. So let's get to it. Here is my interview with Elise and Natalie Sammis. Let me start with you, Natalie. How did you guys even find out about this? How do you get your kids on a show like this? Elise Sammis 6:38 Well, actually, I didn't get my kid on the show. Elise put herself on the show. Basically, we live in the south and hurricanes are prevalent. And about a year and a half ago, at least you think it was Hurricane Matthew and we got five days off of school. And so I was very bored around the house. So I looked up, like, because I like to bake and I was getting into it. So I looked up like baking competitions and I saw like form so that we could, like fill out a form so that we could try out. And so I made a video for it and I sent it into them. And after that we didn't hear until like six months later. Stacey Simms 7:23 So during that five days and your home and baking was that your first foray? Was that your first time into baking or is it something you'd always like to do? Elise Sammis 7:30 I'd pretty much always like to bake from like, I guess like when I got diagnosed with Type 1 diabetes when I was nine, it was really stressful. So it was just really like stress relieving to be able to bake and it was like creative. Stacey Simms 7:46 Alright, so we have an audience that knows about diabetes. But what you just said when I was diagnosed with type one I found it really stress relieving – that could sound strange. What were your thoughts as she was enjoying this as a younger kid? Natalie Sammis 8:06 The two background stories, I think that are important in this piece are that a I am an avid Baker. And so literally, sugar is in my blood at all times. No, I my motto is dinner is always just a means to dessert. That is my life motto since a small child. And also number two, I'm actually an RN, I have my Bachelor's of Science and nursing. So I understand the principles. I understand that Yeah, you skirt the line a little bit closer. When it comes to desserts. It is a little bit more complicated in your carb counting. But it's also it's very doable. It's not off the table. It's not something that someone should be terrified of. It's something that you can balance and put into your life. And also we realized that half the time that we bake, we don't even eat it really we are sharing it with our friends or we're posting it like on social media to feel unify with other people. People It is really, truly a creative outlet for us probably like how people feel with art, but I don't get art and I cannot eat art. So we just go with the dessert side of the world and we like it and we make friends by giving people desserts. Stacey Simms 9:15 How old were you when you were diagnosed? Elise Sammis 9:17 It was the day after my ninth birthday, and we were in Disney. And there was my birthday and my mom actually fed me a chocolate chip cookie for breakfast. Right there. So we were like noticing a lot of symptoms. I was really thirsty all the time. So then my mom took me to the urgent care clinic, the CBS for CBS. And like the MinuteClinic the MinuteClinic Yep, yep. And I got and she got a glucose meter and she thought as a UTI at first. Natalie Sammis 9:52 Right. So she took a blood sugar first and it just read error. When the very first meter read error. The nurse in me problem solving. I thought, ooh, there's something wrong with the machinery that that Wait a second, I know how to litmus test this. So I stuck my own finger, I tested my own blood sugar and it said 96 I still remember the number and my heart sunk. I knew at that moment, deep down that she had diabetes, but I didn't even then didn't want to admit it. Because, you know, that's the worst. So we went to the urgent care and the urgent care. I still remember they looked at us like we were crazy because we walked in. And Elise is holding a Diary of a Wimpy Kid book. And she's just flipping through and reading it and she has a bottle of water in one hand, because at that point, I said, You drink as much as you can. Right? Right, right. Just drink this. And I said, I think my daughter might have diabetes. They look at me, like, does she fall down? Did she pass out? Like I'm like, No, but she's drinking me. Are you from the area? No, we're on vacation at Disney. And they're like, so you stopped your Disney vacation and you think she has diabetes? I'm like, I know. I basically said tell me I'm crazy. I want to walk out of here laughing like I'm just a paranoid Mom, I just cannot in good faith just go back home after seeing the error recording and having those symptoms and I just need to know so we waited quite a while because we were not on the urgent list at that point. And even the doctor said, I think it's probably just a UTI. But he respected my wish to check your blood sugar. And at that moment, their meter read error Hi. And they said he pulled out his personal cell phone and said go directly to Orlando Children's Hospital. Stacey Simms 11:31 Do you remember any of that? I mean, nine is old enough, but sometimes things get confusing. Do you remember like, anything that your mom was saying? Or what's going on in the hospital? Elise Sammis 11:39 Well, I remember that like when I got in there. I was asking like, Is it ever going to go away and everything then I remember the turkey bacon was disgusting Natalie Sammis 11:49 They put her on this restricted carb diet. So all she could eat with like a massive amounts of turkey bacon, Elise Sammis 11:57 turkey bacon. like sugar free jello. Stacey Simms 12:03 So did you ever get back to Disney World? Natalie Sammis 12:05 Yeah, we did we After that we went to Hollywood Studios. We took it that Disney paid for us for a taxi or an Uber. I can't remember which one back to our place that we were staying in the other. My Elise is the oldest of four children. So the other kids and my husband were already at the party because we said go on without us because we had been in the hospital for about three and a half days. And we got in that taxi cab we threw our suitcases in there and we saw the next bus to Disney and we ran our little hearts out and barely caught the bus and we didn't get to do too much that day. And then we went home the next day but Disney was kind enough to give us passes to come back and when we had kind of our life under control a little bit more and we understood more about diabetes in real life. We came back probably three months later in May Elise Sammis 12:52 is a lot better experience than the last. It was a lot more fun. Okay, Stacey Simms 12:57 so after Disney World when you go home You say you figured out diabetes in a bad life? You were already enjoying baking at that point. After all that turkey bacon. Were you worried? Like that's it for baking or cupcakes? Or did your mom kind of jumped right back into it with you? Elise Sammis 13:14 Well, for about a week later, I was like, I don't even know like what I can or can't eat. And so we like kind of researched a lot. And then I was like, wait, I don't have to just not eat sugar. I can just take insulin for it. So then I was like, Well, I can still bake and stuff. And so that's I was like, yeah, you know, it's got really excited about it. Stacey Simms 13:39 That's great. So what a whirlwind diagnosis and hopefully we'll have time I want to talk a little bit more about Disney World later, but let's talk about the bacon. You send in the video. You wait six months later, what do you hear what happens? Elise Sammis 13:53 So like, I've been waiting and then another season came out, and that was like, they just didn't see it. The following, never gonna happen. And then like, six months later after that, I was on the bus and my mom called me She's like, you're not gonna believe who just called me. And I was like Harry Potter. Stacey Simms 14:14 well, she was almost 11. Elise Sammis 14:18 And then she's like, no, it's the kids baking championship people and they want to interview and I was like, Oh my gosh, yeah. So I ran home. We did a lot of Skype interviews, and I had a lot of assignments and I had to make a ton of desserts. And there's a lot of other videos I had to make for it. And there's a lot of interviews as the mom you know, please seeking I mean, this is an exciting time but at the same time it's a lot of hopes for a young woman to have Yeah, yeah. Nervous that after all of this work, she wasn't gonna get on the show. Oh, very, very guarded, I guess will be the word. Natalie Sammis 14:53 I mean, I'll backtracking when she said mom can I turn in the video and I did have to click like I agree and I help fill in. Some of the, like contact information so it was correct, because at that point, you were 10 years old when she turned in the video. And I told I still remember and people laugh at me still, at least still less than me. My caveat was sure I'll turn in this video but you need to understand that you will never hear back from them, they probably will never see it and you're never going to be on that show. And if you're okay with all those three sentences, I'm feeling okay with letting you turn this in. Because I'm more of a realist. I am Elise is a is a goal setter and a go getter and a dreamer. And she proved me wrong every time so I don't know why I keep doubting it. But I just I think I do that out of protection as a mom and so yeah, as time went on, you couldn't even the process is when they Skype, the parent in the room is not allowed to be in the room. You can't be there. They want the kids to stand on their own. They don't want some mom in the corner given them most of coaching and so I would put my ears to like the door but I have a he was four at the time. And he would be like read to me we've got this new dog that was like two months old and an idiot, so I'm literally like hearing every fifth word. And even then I'm like, oh, like so excited out of my mind that I couldn't even concentrate. So I mean, it was crazy. Just week after week, it went on for from March until June, just on and off on enough like, yes, you made it to the next step. Then we would hear crickets, crickets crickets, and you don't want to be the annoying mom. And then they not pick you because you're this weirdo psycho. So you had to play it cool. You have to kind of just wait for them. And then the next kind of like little piece of cheese would come and he would chase after that. Stacey Simms 16:34 so then this is going on for a while. When did you really start to get close? What happens? I don't know how much you can share. So don't tell us what you can't. But how do you know that? This is going to be it? Elise Sammis 16:44 Yeah. Well, we were doing all these interviews and videos and I was it just kept going. And I was like, when are they going to cut to the chase and like, actually do it. And so then we got a call in like early June. They're like, we want to fly out 15 kids, we're gonna send three home and all the other ones are going to be able to be on the show. And I was like, we're finally going to LA. Natalie Sammis 17:09 Yeah. So we knew flying out there all the way to all this work. I mean, this is now we've been up till 2am, baking things having to print that present the next day unless it's work. I mean, huge amount of work. And it's a risk. It's Stacey Simms 17:24 already going home. And then the competition, you know, Natalie Sammis 17:27 oh, yeah. So our goal was to get on the show, and knock it out the first episode. And we didn't do those things so that we can just hang our head forever. Stacey Simms 17:36 What happens when you're there? I mean, you know, kids are generally pretty friendly, I would think. I mean, you want to be friends, you're hanging out. There's got to be a lot of downtime. If you're not familiar with TV production, there's so much downtime, is it hard doing that knowing that they're not going to stay? Elise Sammis 17:52 It was super hard because like, the first day like all of them were super nice, and they're all like super friendly, and like we went to the mall, and we hung out at the pool together. And like, I didn't want any of them to go. But they had to, there was no thing in me that was like, I want so and so to get out. Yeah. Stacey Simms 18:13 So yeah, be nice if everybody could win. But that's not how the show works. Yeah. All right, what can you tell us because a couple of episodes have aired already, but when this podcast airs will probably be further down the road. So I'm curious if you can share anything about what goes on behind the scenes because I've seen the show and some of it looks very ordered. Some of it looks very chaotic. is some of that chaos planned? Or is it just you guys are really doing what you're doing? What do people really knock stuff over? Elise Sammis 18:38 Sometimes they would tell me to ask how are you doing so and so? And they really like good. And then sometimes they would say like, tell all the other bakers you have 15 minutes left. And the other stuff we would just say random things. Yeah, your mind. Natalie Sammis 18:56 Well, it was funny to that. I think there's a couple times that the cameras People I thought it was interesting. They have 13 different cameras going to get all the angles. They have one big overhead camera. And she said, anytime anyone made a mistake, you knew it, because you'd feel the crane. Whoa, hovering over you. So you didn't want the big camera to go on you. You knew that either something's on fire or going downhill fast. So no one wanted the big camera to be swooping in their direction. Stacey Simms 19:27 we haven't really talked about diabetes and the show. That was in your video, some of your audition. Yes. You mentioned it. Was there any hesitancy on your part to put that in? Was that important to you Elise Sammis 19:37 know, that was very important to me, because I wanted like everyone to know that if you have diabetes, you can still do the things that you want to do. And it was like super cool, because there was another girl named Naima. She's my super good friend and she had also had type one, and she's super sweet. And we were both like, yeah, we both have type one. Stacey Simms 19:55 I was gonna ask you about Naima because I'm obviously we're not interviewing her for the show, but I've seen her story. Well, and it was incredible to me. So far the posts have all been, oh, there's two kids with type one on the Food Network. And everybody's been saying no, no, no, you're confused this name and no, you're no, you're confused. Oh, it's really Natalie Sammis 20:12 well, well, even we were confused. But we walk in the first day and its orientation and all the sudden I'm hearing Dexcom alarms and I'm going Elise, Like what? Like, like it is because it sounds too far from us. And she should have it in your bag. And I said, Who's next column? What Where's your Dexcom? And then this other little girl pipes up and says, Oh, that's mine. And that moment, it was that instant bond of like, you have to wait, we have to. It was our first I think your first real friend like you have acquaintances that have type one, but this is the first time she connected with some one else on this kind of level who has type one and I think that's special. Stacey Simms 20:48 So you guys have kept in touch. Elise Sammis 20:50 We have a big old group chat. We all talk every day. Stacey Simms 20:54 That's cool. I wish I can ask you more but I know Yeah. Elise Sammis 21:00 Did any of the other kids talk to you about diabetes? I mean, kids don't always do that. I'm just curious. They were pretty curious. And they're like, what's on your arm? And I was like, Oh, that's my insulin pump and everything. They were super nice and they're like, they didn't really care about it. They were just super sweet. Stacey Simms 21:29 Did any of the parents because I mean my son doesn't bake and I remember when I've been parental settings for sports or there's always somebody who's like, well can you really eat that? You know, anything like that? Natalie Sammis 21:30 No one really I think because we had gotten that far. And they knew we were that serious about baking. They can't bear Yeah, there's two of us they dare not I think what we are all became like very good friends. I think it's always eye opening when you get to know other people that the little bit of understanding of what type one really means day in and day out and on vacation and we were in a very stressful situation and we were up I mean, her blood sugar would just go crazy every time she baked it every time she was on set I wouldn't even let her eat a single carb because I already knew her blood sugar would be through the roof when she's getting stressed her her levels go high and so her Dex have just been going off. I can't believe we can't hear it at the show you you are only there but it almost felt a little good to be able to just kind of explain and see what is really like it Yeah, we were up at 2am and 3am and 4am treating highs and then treating lows and this is our everyday and oh at least go change your pod or and they kind of like look at you with like huge eyes like you do this every day and you're kind of like Yeah, we do. It's all right that like what I am so proud of at least and I don't know if everyone told you this really but she did not once ever use diabetes or her blood sugar level as an excuse whenever she didn't perform how she wanted to perform or when she was stressed or other kids won certain competitions. She Never ever, ever even had that in a thought like it does not hold her back physically or mentally ever. I want to have my little mom sign like “do you know her blood sugar is 328, do you know hard it is to be thinking clearly?!” like, I just wanted to say that like you don't understand how cool she is right now. Stacey Simms 23:19 So but let me ask you because obviously diabetes did not stop you from doing this. But did anything happened during the competition where you did have to leave to change a pod? Or it Did you know, mess you up? Did anything ever happened along the way because it does happen sometimes. Elise Sammis 23:32 Thankfully, like nothing like sometimes the medical my medical person, she was super nice. She would like come over and give me some insulin but I would just keep on baking and she would like BB Stacey Simms 23:46 Yeah, so was this somebody that the show provided Natalie Sammis 23:48 that they had two medicd, so they had one assigned to Naima one assigned to Elise and I'm sure they would cover the other kids who like cut themselves to cut themselves on fire, but they were basically there to hover over The two diabetics. Stacey Simms 24:01 Did you ever catch yourself on fire? Unknown Speaker 24:02 No but someone did we had to slap it down with a giant pan. Natalie Sammis 24:07 Yeah, yeah, there's some fire soon. Yeah. Spoiler alert. Awesome. Stacey Simms 24:13 So much to ask you about the show. But I'm curious as you watch the show, the judges are a big part of it. You know, were you nervous meeting them? Was it fun? Anything stand out. I don't know what you could tell us. Elise Sammis 24:25 It was super exciting meeting them and like Valerie was super nice. And she was just like a mom like the whole time she like was very nice. That was nice. Stacey Simms 24:37 Sweet the judges of Valerie Burtonelli, who we all know from one day to time, all those great shows and then Duff is the.. he did Charm City cakes, right? Yeah. Duff Goldman. We were huge fans. My daughter is in college now. But we watched Charm City cakes a ton. He was our guy. Yes. And you said he was interesting? Elise Sammis 25:00 He really funny and like sarcastic and he was really, like nice about the judging and everything and he was really, like supportive. Stacey Simms 25:08 Maybe you can answer this. They also seem like they're taking it seriously. I mean, they're Valerie's nicer. Some it seems right to the kids, but they're straightforward. They're not telling you Good job when it wasn't right? Natalie Sammis 25:20 Yeah, well, what's actually funny on I never got to meet them. They only let the kids talk to them meet them. I saw them through like closed circuit TV with no audio feeds, because their parents had to have some sort of eye on their child, but I didn't even get to meet them. But when those kids would come back from tastings and judging things and just baking during the day, they would just say, oh, def came over and talk to me and he was funny, and oh, Valerie, like gave me a hug and I trusted the kids in that setting there. They're not the other I don't want to call it other people's judges names and other shows, but they're not harsh. They're not on kind but they are they are very, they're. Stacey Simms 26:03 Yeah. They seem to balance the fact that there weren't a kids show. Yeah. But if you're going to be good feedback, Natalie Sammis 26:07 yeah. If you're going to get that far, though, and how hard we work to get there, those kids can take it. They're not delicate flowers at this point. Stacey Simms 26:15 So of course, you can tell us how everything went in the end of the show, and you won't get in any trouble. even letting a word well done. I obviously can't ask you about the outcome. And I would never. Was it fun are you glad you did it? Elise Sammis 26:29 It was super fun. I'm so glad that I did it because it's such like a good experience. Like you got to meet so many friends. It was really like a lesson to me about patients. Because all those interviews and all the time that was like put into it. It was a lot and yet there's a lot of waiting. So that was a really good lesson for me. Do you still enjoy baking? Is that something you think about? Please do? Yes, I feel like I would always do baking is really fun. In like, it likes me be creative. Unknown Speaker 27:02 This is a good experience for your families. Natalie Sammis 27:04 It was a really good experience me and at least had a great time. We were kind of out there as buddies. And then my, my husband and the other three younger kids flew out for a couple days to visit us. And they decorated our hotel room with balloons galore and messages on the mirror of good luck. And the little kids and me, myself included this kind of trail along on her coattails and got to have this amazing experience. So it was wonderful. Stacey Simms 27:30 I have to ask you, she was three younger children. Do they know the outcome? Because I wouldn't trust my kids. No offense, I don't know your family. Unknown Speaker 27:41 No, they don't. Natalie Sammis 27:42 They even will sometimes, like try to guess and like act like it's real. They're like Oh, so and so did this and they probably did this or that and will be like, oh, whatever you want to think like we don't even validate it because the the what's the number at least that we will be sued if we let information that we Elise Sammis 27:58 will be sued 750,000 Natalie Sammis 28:00 Yeah 13 page contract saying that we will not disclose information so we didn't tell the five year olds Yeah. Stacey Simms 28:07 Anything something else exciting that you all are a part of and I guess this is pretty brand new is your clinical trial for horizon from insolent which is the hybrid closed loop system using Omnipod? So Natalie, can you share a little bit about what is being tested? Is it the full system with the phone app? Natalie Sammis 28:26 Yes, it's the full system. So it involves they gave us a brand new Dexcom transmitter that has the capabilities of obviously talking to the the Omnipod and to the new I don't do they call it a PDM Do you remember lease, I don't know. They still called the PDM. But it's basically a locked out Samsung and they provide that as well. Along with pods that look identical except for this little blue tab. That worked just the same. Also, what I really really like about this, the whole point of it is that you are able to put it in that Automatic mode they call it and with the auto mode, it's every five minutes the Omnipod index home will talk to each other and adjust the Bazell every five minutes as needed. What's cool about it too, is let's say you forgot your PDM you're locked out Samsung somewhere. Even if it has no range, if you could throw it off a cliff even for at least three days, your basal insulin would still be being adjusted because the Dexcom and Omnipod can talk to each other independently. Stacey Simms 29:29 Have you used any hybrid closed loop stuff before? Elise Sammis 29:32 No, this is our first time. Stacey Simms 29:34 All right. How many days? It's only been a couple of days. We started last Wednesday today. To 60 All right, though. Yeah. So have you seen a difference? Elise Sammis 29:42 Yes, it is crazy. Like even we went to Disney World last week, and I ate a ton of junk and everything. And I like went to sleep and it would be a little high but that's what your blood sugar does. And I went to sleep and for the night It would be like a straight line I was so amazing it was it's a big difference. Just the normal taking insulin every time you hear ringing Natalie Sammis 30:09 Yeah, it is just made me feel like less of a nag to like, oh at least check your blood sugar. Oh, I heard your alarm three times a baby. Have you looked at that like that is now silencing our neck. So I have high hopes for it and it really is giving us better control. She's in that crazy stage of life being 11 about to be 12 where it makes no sense. She goes to sleep it looks like she ate a box of Krispy Kreme Doughnuts for no reason and it's nothing but hormones and I don't know unexplained highs and lows. So already this week, it is refreshing to see so many more straight lines. I mean, there's still today we were stuck in the three hundreds for hours and that's just what it is. And but I'm really pleased so far and I'm ecstatic to be able to have it for longer than the three month trial period. Stacey Simms 30:57 All right. Before I let you go you said you have at Disney World, you ran in half marathon full marathon Natalie Sammis 31:04 on Team JDRF. The half marathon half marathon. Stacey Simms 31:07 Yep. So you went back to Disney World. You ran the team JDRF half marathon. Let me ask you first though at least what's it like for you to go back at Disney World? Do you think about diabetes you just have fun when you're there. Elise Sammis 31:18 I have like weird flashbacks kind of. Because I like like remember walking in that same spot being like, all frazzled, like what am I going to do? But then like going back and feeling like Well, I'm kind of normal now. Like, I got it under control. So like happy for me. Unknown Speaker 31:35 That's fantastic. So like, Natalie Sammis 31:37 I had some a mom, I'm going to get weepy no problem very silly. But to see it come full circle to leave Disney World that first time. And you know wonder what your future is going to be like wonder what your daughter's life is going to look like. It's kind of being scared out of your mind. And then to come back to the literally the same place in Disney. I don't know. It has some feel to it. Like, even if you had gone 20 years ago, there's something magic. There's that little spark of Disney that kind of remains the same. So it puts you right back where you were in this time to feel so much confidence. And I still remember on the half marathon, you turn a corner and run into the Magic Kingdom in the it was still dark because it's a ridiculously early marathon. But the castle was all lit up. And I had this like moment of like, Oh my goodness, we've made it so far. I am so happy where where we're at now. We're beating diabetes. I'm not being beaten by diabetes. And at that very moment, as I'm like, getting all bizarre and emotional. I look up and there's Team JDRF fans, right? They're saying that moment of like, oh, then I'm like, wait, I can't praise because I'm practice. So I stopped crying and I kept running and that was it. But yeah, it is a quite a journey, I guess, to come full circle and to go back in that way with so much support and so much like people behind you and helping you raise money for a cause, you know, to help your kid just live a happy, normal life. So it was great. Stacey Simms 33:18 Thank you both so much. I would say Best of luck, but it's all. So excited to watch. To see how this goes. I hope you'll come back and talk to us again. Thank you so much. Unknown Speaker 33:29 Thank you. Unknown Speaker 33:35 You're listening to diabetes connections with Stacey Simms. Stacey Simms 33:41 Alright, so fingers crossed for Elise and for Naima. I am taping this just after the second episode has aired. So who the heck knows what has happened since and what will happen going forward, but we will certainly be following cheering these girls on. Up next. Tell me something good but diabetes connections is brought to you by Dexcom. And you know, when Benny was very little, and his fingers would get wet, right? I'd give him a bath or we'd go in the pool. I would always notice his fingertips. And you know exactly what I mean, right? They were poked so much that they were just full of little little pinprick holes. You could see when they got wet. He is 15. Now, I don't really see his hands much anymore. But the other day, he's such a ding-a-ling. He was doing a project for school. He was using a hot glue gun and he you know, he burned himself a little bit. He's fine. He's fine. But when he came into show me I noticed again and every time I do see his hands, it just knocks me out. his fingertips look normal. We've been using Dexcom for six years now. And with every iteration, we've done fewer and fewer finger sticks, the latest generation, the Dexcom g six eliminates finger sticks for calibration and diabetes treatment decisions. Just thinking about doing 10 finger sticks a day in the past. Makes me so glad that Dexcom has helped us come so far. It's an incredible tool. If you're glucose alerts and readings from the G six do not match symptoms or expectations. Use a blood glucose meter to make diabetes treatment decisions. learn more, go to diabetes, connections calm and click on the Dexcom logo. It's time for Tell me something good. I've got two great stories one was sent to me via Facebook Messenger. The other one I saw in a Facebook group and if you've got a story for me, the easiest way is in my Facebook group at diabetes connections the group or email me let me know what's going on. What is good for you. Melissa wrote in “I have a Tell me something good. I've been listening to your podcast since maybe the summer and my four year old daughter was diagnosed March 28 2019. You are very optimistic. I haven't found a positive thing with my daughter's diabetes. Until today. It's been a horrible nine months with everything. We had our first dentist appointment Since diagnosis I've dropped a lot of ball since April, when the dental hygienist saw the pump. She knew what it was. I didn't have to explain. The conversation got direct to where we treat for Lowes, Skittles and starbursts and gummies. All bed for her teeth. When the dentist came to check, we had a discussion about the candies. He asked for her Endo's name, and he knew her. He's the pediatric chief of dentistry at the local Children's Hospital where her endo is affiliated, he texted an email to find better candies to use instead of the sticky kind. He went on to say collaborates with a lot of specialized doctors in the Children's Hospital to take better care of the kids. And he said get back to me after a discussion with the endo. I found the experience relieving that I wouldn't have to fight this battle. The dentist got it and my daughter was in good hands being cared for. I didn't think I'd ever find anything positive about our new normal. Today I did. So that's my Tell me something good.” Melissa, I'm getting emotional reading what you're saying here. Thank you. She writes for your podcast your optimism, and having somebody to tell the story to understand. Her daughter's name is Katarina, beautiful name. And she told me that it's been difficult to find care for her. You know when they're that little it can be so hard preschools, that kind of thing. But she went on to write that they have been blessed. She's been taken care of by her school nurse in an all day preschool. Her endocrinologist who they love and her mother, Melissa's mom, the grandma, who was able to watch her while the parents are at work, and now the dentist, she writes, “I didn't realize until this how lucky we have been. These are battles. I do not have to fight. Your optimism about any life with T1D is something I was envious of. I wanted some of the burden of this disease lifted off of my shoulders, and I was able to see that I have that after this visit. So I'm a little bit emotional here because of all the nice things she said and just having a place to share that with right. It's important to have people who get it and know important it is that the dentist didn't scold her and say you shouldn't be doing that. But said, Let's find a way to do this that works with Type 1 diabetes. And I think that's fantastic. But if it was a little strange for me to hear, even though I know it, I am very optimistic. I am very positive. I put these rose colored glasses on a lot and diabetes is hard. Type 1 is difficult. Being a parent of a kid with type one it's difficult to it's not all sunshine and rainbows over here. Trust me, I hope I'm open and honest about it. But at the end of the day, we've been really lucky. And I am optimistic and if you're feeling down or things are hard, no judgment, man. It is hard all around. I think I do an okay job of being honest and sharing the ups and downs. But I do know that my general outlook with type one is is an uplifting one. I hesitate to say it because I feel like it's an odd thing to say I feel like it puts me like I'm trying to be uplifting, but the truth is that's how it was presented. To us when Benny was diagnosed, and that makes all of the difference. When you're diagnosed on the very first day you meet a nurse who says, he's going to be fine. I have type one. And I have one child at home and I'm pregnant with my second and don't listen to the scary stories and don't listen to the hard stuff. It's fine. And then the next day, you pick up the phone and call three local people that you know who have kids with type one, because you've met them in your health reporting over the years, and they all say that he's gonna be great. My kids Is this my kid does that it's fine. It really changes than if you don't have those things. And I know how lucky I am to have them. So Melissa, thank you for reaching out. Thanks for a little bit of the gut check, as I like to say the rose colored glasses, but send us any good news and send us anything you want to vent. I hope you join the Facebook group. I'd love to hear more about Catarina. Our other Tell me something good this week comes from the Walt Disney World marathon weekend. That's where Natalie Sammis was when they said they were in Walt Disney World again. Very recently. She was running the half marathon. You talked about with all the jdrf people, they're getting emotional. Well, there's so much going on for that weekend. And I wanted to spotlight Julia Buckley, who's a friend of mine and I've mentioned her on the show before. She is a flight attendant and she is amazing. And she won the Spirit Award for jdrf. She ran on Team jdrf. I don't know how she does it. She flies all over the world comes home runs at Walt Disney World. She always has a smile on her face. So Julia, thank you so much for all that you do. I love some of the pictures maybe we'll throw some of those in the Facebook group as well but to everybody who ran at Walt Disney World, hats off man and now it's a fun race but it's still a lot of work. If you've got to tell me something good story, send it my way. I am so excited. We're getting more and more of these all the time or put them out on social media every week. So I'd love to hear from you tell me something good. Before I let you go, this is not a Tell me something good. This is a Tell me something embarrassing. So I mentioned the very beginning of the show that there were some technical difficulties when I recorded the interview with Elise and Natalie. And real quick, the way I taped the show, usually is that I do the interviews right from my home computer. I have a little setup little home studio. But the interviews are generally conducted via Skype, and then into my computer and then into a backup hard drive. Later on, I record this part of it like a round the interview, right and that goes right into the computer. But when I'm on the road, I don't want to slip my computer. It's only got one input for the microphone, and I had basically needed three inputs. my microphone, Natalie's mic, and Elise's mic. So I use I mentioned that hard drive. I use a recorder for all of you audio files out there, I use an H five zoom. It is a wonderful little recording device and i i only scratched the surface. I know I'm not using it to its full potential. I can plug two microphones in there. And I know I can do more with it. I could use a sound mixer or whatever. But generally when I have more than two microphones that I'm using a plug two and two Each five zoom. And then I have another recorder where I put on a lavalier mic and a little Clippy mics that you see on the evening news or maybe you've done an interview or recorded something for work and they put a little clip mic on your collar. That's a level layer mic, and I use that for myself. And here's the embarrassing part. The recorder I use when I do that is an old iPhone. And I'm not even sure how old it is. It might be a four, it might be three. It doesn't work anymore for anything else. I mean, I don't certainly have service on it. But it is a perfect dumb recorder. And it's like a tape recorder back of the day. And I had purchased over the years, these level ear mics that plugged into your phone. They're fantastic. But when you switch to the newer iPhones and you got rid of the headphone jack well guess where the lav mic plugged in. So I'm out of luck. I can't use my newer phone as a recorder if I want to use the lav mics. So we get to South Carolina. I'm setting everything up. I'm there early and speaking doing a book event before First I'm going to interview with Lisa, Natalie. So I set everything up. Everything sounds good. The stick microphones, the regular microphones, the one if you ever see pictures of me the ones that have the logos on them. Those are plugged in. They're working fine. They're a little low. I'm not really sure. I think maybe Elise was just very soft spoken. So I'm trying to adjust audio levels. I plug my stuff in, and the old phone, the editing software will not open. I use a program called twisted wave. And it's a great program. It's it's up to date, but the phone is so old. I think it was trying to update the the editing software. So I said, forget this. I'll just use my voice memo. So every phone has a voice memo app. It's fabulous for podcasting. It really works well. You can just record your voice for however long and then you email it to yourself. I have guests do this. Sometimes if it's a really short interview. I don't do it much. But you know, once or twice. I've had people do a short segment and a voice memo is great for them. So it looks like it's working. Everything's fine. We do the whole interview. voice memo is there I can hear it. It's recorded Elise Natalie are fine. I can't Email the file to myself. I can't get it off the phone. It's stuck on this old iPhone three, four. It's sitting there. It's It's wonderful. Amazingly, the microphones I was using picked up my voice enough so you heard the interview. It wasn't terrible. It probably wasn't great, I'm sure john kennis my editor worked a ton of magic on it every time he gets a file from me probably shakes his head and said, yes, this person obviously worked with a technical producer her entire radio career. So I'm now in the market for a new level ear mic, because if you know anything about audio, and you heard me say the h5 zoom, you know that you can also plug a lav mic or any kind of really smaller mic into another outlet very easily. And this whole thing could have been avoided if I had just done that. So that was my adventure. I figured we'd just soldier on right you just want the stories. You're less concerned with pristine studio sound, right? Haha. Well, look, I'm going on the road a lot this year. So I figured I better learn how to do that. And figure out how to better get it done. So stay tuned for the continuing saga of how the heck Stacy makes her lovely mix work. Alright, the next stop is not too far from me. I'm going to Raleigh the first weekend in February Raleigh, North Carolina for a jdrf type one nation summit. Then I am going to Maine the following weekend to South Portland, Maine, to talk to the main pea pods, very excited to talk to this group. And we have a very busy schedule after that. Thank you, as always, especially this week to my editor, john Drew kennis from audio editing solutions. Thank you for listening. Remember this Thursday, we do have another minisode coming out this week. I'm talking all about untethered, what that means, why we have loved it. I got a bunch of questions after I mentioned this in a couple episodes back. I talked about receiver a little bit which is a newer, long acting. So I'm going to go through untethered, what it means why it's not just for teenagers, and why we've had such good success. With it, and that is our next little mini episode. I'm Stacey Simms and I will see you back here on Thursday. Benny 46:11 Diabetes Connections is a production of Stacey Sims media. All rights reserved. All wrongs avenged Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Quick show notes Our Guest: Sam Julien What he'd like for you to see: Auth0 Community Forum | His Gatsby Course on Thinkster | Get a Job in Tech His JAMstack Jams: The methodology and not needing to stand up a server for every little thing His Musical Jam: "Not" by Big Thief Other Technology Mentioned Gatsby Jekyll NextJS AirTable Twilio Our sponsor this week: TakeShape Transcript Bryan Robinson 0:02 Hello, everyone, and welcome to the first real episode of 2020 you're listening to That's My JAMstack, the podcast where we dare to ask the question, what is your jam in the JAMstack. I'm your host, Bryan Robinson. And today on the show, we have a speaker, author, teacher, a developer relations engineer at Auth0, Sam Julien. Bryan Robinson 0:24 I'm also pleased to welcome back to the show are sponsored TakeShape, find out more about their content platform after the episode or head over to takeshape.io/thatsmyjamstack for more information. Bryan Robinson 0:39 All right, Sam, thanks for joining us on the podcast today. Sam Julien 0:41 Yeah, thanks. I'm really happy to be here. Bryan Robinson 0:43 Cool. So tell us a little bit about yourself. What do you do for work? What do you do for fun? That sort of thing? Sam Julien 0:47 Yeah. So I am a Developer Advocate engineer at Auth0, which is just sort of a fancy word for Developer Relations. And so basically, spend my time I'm doing a lot of interacting with developers who use Auth0 the product and then kind of taking that feedback back to the different teams. Sam Julien 1:11 And so I, I do a lot of speaking at events and things like that and working on basically combining x technology with Auth0 and trying to find the problems with it. Sam Julien 1:22 And then for fun, I actually live in a rural area of the Pacific Northwest. I live on 10 acres of land with my partner. And then we have some friends who also are in the own the land with us, and so they come up on weekends and stuff. And so we have, we have 20 chickens that we raise, and we're getting some eggs from and yeah, and so ever since moving on to this land that's sort of taken over as my hobby. I feel like I was a lot more interesting when I lived in Portland as far as like hobbies and activities but that's aside from taking care of the property.I see you have a Breath of the Wild artwork on your wall. And that's basically my current hobby is playing Breath of the Wild. Bryan Robinson 2:13 You could think almost a lifetime into that. So that'd be fine. Sam Julien 2:15 Yeah, it's pretty crazy. I don't know if I'm gonna go ... So we only got a Switch a few months ago. And I don't know if I'm going to go for completion on it. But Amy is definitely. She's already I think she's already got like, 105 shrines or something. And she's, she's going for 100%. Bryan Robinson 2:36 You could spend a long time going for 100%. So you eat a lot of the eggs that you get fresh from the chickens? Sam Julien 2:43 Well, we we just actually just started laying. Like a week ago, actually, we got them when they were chicks. And so I think we've almost got a dozen at this point. So we're probably going to start eating them pretty soon. There first ones are always kind of duds because they're like trying to figure it out and not fully formed. And so but I think we're just about there to start eating them. Bryan Robinson 3:10 All right. Well, this is this is neither a chicken podcast nor a gaming podcast. Let's let's talk about the JAMstack a little bit, right.Unknown Speaker 3:17 Yeah, I suppose we should talk about the JAMstack. Bryan Robinson 3:20 So what was kind of your entry point into this idea whether there was static sites back in the day, JAMstack nowadays? What's your what's your entry point? Sam Julien 3:28 Well, I mean, aside from, you know, the, the, the real static site being like, index.html and everything. Aside from that, I would say my introduction to the JAMstack was through Gatsby, and my introduction to Gatsby was just through, umm... So before I was in Developer Relations at Auth0, I was on the content team. So I was writing tutorials and stuff and we sort of went through this process. The blog at Auth0 is in Jekyll, and there's sort of this ongoing debate internally of whether to migrate to Gatsby or not. And I don't, I don't know if they're going to end up doing it or not. Because you know how it is with wanting to rewrite a platform. It's like, it's like, is this a good idea? Like, legacy code is still, it still works. So. But uh, so anyway, so that's so some colleagues on that team, were telling me about Gatsby. Sam Julien 4:24 And so I started looking into it. And I kind of just like instantly fell in love with it and started messing around with it and building stuff with it and looking at everybody else's blogs and portfolios that they were making with it. And it just really like scratch the itch for me of both being a developer and a writer, and I just really liked it. So then that kind of led down the path of the rest of the jam stack and all that. I guess Bryan Robinson 4:51 So, when you got into Gatsby, had you done a lot of react previously or was that new too? Sam Julien 4:56 It was actually kind of my way into React. Because I, I'm historically an Angular developer, like I came from C# and then like C# and Angular kind of go really well together. And so I've done I had done a bunch of Angular over the last few years. And then, but Auth0 basically uses React almost exclusively internally. And so I was, it was already sort of on my list of things to learn. But Gatsby was sort of a nice, like way into react because it handled all the tooling and everything, since it's just, it's basically just a supercharged create react app. And so it sort of gave me this nice platform to just dig into react, while not having to kind of worry about the all the tooling involved. Bryan Robinson 5:50 it's also got, I think, I think, a pretty strong set of opinions to which helps kind of guide on best practices. Sam Julien 5:56 Right, exactly. And an Angular like, angular has A ton of strong opinions. And so that's sort of what I was used to. I mean, it's sort of there's pros and cons to both approach both approaches. But I think when I was first starting to learn react when I joined Auth0, I was a little like dizzy by just how many different ways you can slice and dice react. And so Gatsby really did kind of help just kind of narrow the focus of like, here's like, a set of tools, like a ready made thing for you now just write some react and and figure it out, you know. Bryan Robinson 6:31 So, how are you using the JAMstack professionally? I mean, I know you said that they're debating coming to Gatsby and they are on Jekyll. But you're not on that content team anymore. Are you doing some JAMstack type things and your developer relations that Auth0? Sam Julien 6:46 Yeah, so I I, I'm sort of doing both stuff personally and professionally with it from the professional side at off zero. It's mostly I've been really kind of digging into What authentication looks like in the jam stack because it's kind of an interesting. It's an it's an interesting, new problem set, because it's sometimes it's more like a traditional web app. And sometimes it's more like just a single page application. And sometimes you have these serverless models that you have to authenticate and stuff like that. Sam Julien 7:23 So so I'm sort of in this research phase right now if like trying to build different prototypes with Gatsby or Next or you know, things like that and wrap my head around what the problem set looks like of like, when is it more like a traditional web app? When is it more like a spa? When is there sort of this in between weird case of serverless stuff and all that and so that's sort of what I'm doing now is is figuring out how Azzurro fits in with jam stack stuff and how we can make it easy for developers and that kind of thing. And then from the on the personal side of things, I'm using Gatsby to build, build, I'm rebuilding, I am rebuilding my own personal site with Gatsby, which is I still am not convinced it's a great idea, but I'm going to do it anyway. And, and, and then I built I loved Gatsby so much, but I, I couldn't find exactly like the way of teaching it that that I liked. And so I built a course for a platform called things through.io on Gatsby just sort of like getting started with Gatsby. And so that's minute sort of another side project endeavors this, this course and different content, I ended up doing a couple egghead lessons on some Gatsby stuff. And so that's sort of my Gatsby sort of fueling my side hustle as well as my day job right now. Bryan Robinson 8:57 Cool. So uh, so what is kind of the thing that brings you to the JAMstack in terms of what do you love about it? What's your what's your jam in the JAMstack? Sam Julien 9:07 I really think this whole concept of not needing to pair a server with a front end is really nice. I just think that nowadays there there are so many different like SaaS products and like serverless products and things like that, that like, it seems like for a lot of cases other than complex enterprise stuff. You don't really need to spend a lot of time messing with building your own server and all of that, you know, it's just like, if you're just doing if you're pulling in data from outside, you know, like Twilio or wherever, you know, or AirTable or things like that. Sam Julien 9:53 Or if you're just making like a recently, a lot of developer relations as you know as building a lot of sample apps. And so recently I've been thinking I would always build like a little Express server to serve up data and stuff like that. And now I'm sort of like there's not really any point, I could just put this in a serverless function and reuse the same thing over and over again, and I don't really need it. So I'm really liking that, that the JAMstack has sort of opened up, like it's making so much stuff easier for a large a large percentage of apps that people need to build, you know what I mean? Bryan Robinson 10:31 Yeah, and so so you come from like a C# background so you're obviously not afraid of server side languages. I myself, deathly afraid serverside languages, so kind of, do you have a point where you would go and spin up your own server now or are you going to just be going in this serverless way going forward? Sam Julien 10:49 Well, I mean, I can see so like my my previous jobs were at like in doing like line of business applications for like bigger companies. One was like a finance company one was like a renewable energy nonprofit. So there, those places have a lot of complex business logic that has to happen, you know, with a bunch of data in a database where you have to manipulate and run a bunch of business rules and stuff like that. And to me that, that seems like kind of the obvious use case for like a real server where you actually, like, have a lot of stuff that has to interact with the database and, you know, sort of the more traditional route of, of servers and databases and all that. And so, but I think for a lot of modern stuff that's not enterprise level, the serverless JAMstack stuff works pretty well, you know, and especially with having node I mean, you can sort of just use JavaScript all the time and it's just things are just so much easier. It's It's really nice. Bryan Robinson 11:54 Front End Dev and designer like me, like it just makes my life so much more pleasant Sam Julien 12:00 Yeah, for sure. Definitely. Bryan Robinson 12:02 So so the kind of the whole methodology of that is is where where you're going with your jam, right? Sam Julien 12:07 Yeah, yeah. Basically the whole philosophy. Bryan Robinson 12:10 Yeah. So. So in terms of serverless and all that, right, so you said you started exploring authentication in this world for all zero. How's that going? Because I'll be honest, I haven't done a whole lot of research into it yet. Sam Julien 12:24 It's interesting. And one thing we can link to is one of our architects named Sandrino wrote this really cool article on NextJS and Auth0, but I mean, it's with Auth0, but it also anytime we write about Auth0, we try to also have things that are basically broad, more broad for authentication in general. But we're sort of figuring out that there's these like I said, sort of three different models basically, of like, sometimes it's more like a traditional web app because you're basically, if you're if you're doing everything server side, then it's sort of more like a traditional web app, right? Because you're, you're not really running anything in the browser. I mean, you're running it in the browser, but you're not. There's nothing dynamic happening in the browser. And so you would kind of go with the standard, standard web app approach. Sam Julien 13:21 And then there's things like Gatsby are sort of like Gatsby is interesting, because it's, it got its start as like a static site generator, but it's never actually like, holy a static site, right? Because it's still react, running, you know, like as a spa. And so that sort of this weird case where it's like, it's kind of a static site, but really, you would authenticate it just like you would a spa, pretty much. But then there's this like Next has this whole thing with the serverless deployment model. And from there, you sort of have to determine like where I need The authenticated data like do I need it when the page first renders? Or do I need it later? and Sandrino, you know, has some nice diagrams in that article that will do a better job of explaining it than I can in audio. Bryan Robinson 14:14 Lovely Mouth Blogging as Dave Rupert would say Sam Julien 14:16 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So that stuff's really interesting. And I'm still sort of wrapping my head around at all and building out sample apps and stuff like that. But but it's, it's interesting. And it's definitely as the JAMstack continues to be as popular as it is more and more people will need to understand how to protect all their data and everything. Bryan Robinson 14:39 And Auth is probably the one of the biggest challenges to like adoption in the JAMstack right now to like, how do I protect pages when it's just static? Sam Julien 14:47 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Our architecture and content and developer relations at Auth0 have all been sort of mulling this over for a little while, because I think actually, for this article, Sandrino was talking to people outside and stuff because it's sort of like how do we want to do this? You know, like, what are the best practices here? Bryan Robinson 15:08 Let's create some standards for it and kind of go Sam Julien 15:12 Yeah, exactly. Bryan Robinson 15:15 So let's let's talk musical jam now what are you listening to? what's what's your favorite song or musician or genre? Sam Julien 15:23 I finally I have a great answer for this now and it's because So have you ever heard of the band Big Thief I have made so they on their last on their most recent album, their their single is called Not. And it's got it's like one of the my, like, favorite songs that I've heard in several years. Like there's something very emotional about it. That is just really awesome. And it's nice because I yeah, I just haven't I haven't felt that kind of like connection to a song. In a really long time so I've been I've been playing that a lot not by big thief. Sam Julien 16:06 Let's see what else what else have I been? I feel like as I get older I have less and less like emotional connection to things because I'm not young and nostagic anymore but let's see what am I've been listening to you other than that. I like Tool's new album a lot. I liked Angel Olsen's most recent album, I'm a really big Angel Olsen fan. She's sort of like the singer songwriter type, but her album couple years ago, called What was it called My Woman in 2016. That was a fantastic album, if you haven't listened to it. Bryan Robinson 16:46 That's actually my favorite thing on the podcast other than learning about new technology is learning about all these like drastically different musical tastes and going and listening to what what everyone says. Sam Julien 16:53 I love that. I think that's a really great when I saw that question in the invite. I was like, Oh, that's cool. That's Great I like that. I'd be curious, what's what's your current jam right now? What are you listening? Bryan Robinson 17:05 You turn the tables on me! Sam Julien 17:06 I'm turning the tables Bryan Robinson 17:07 First time! You know, I just I'm behind the times always like that perpetually. But I just this past summer went and saw Hamilton, the touring company came around, and I didn't think I was going to... Like, I thought I would like it; like musical theater well enough, but like, I am in love with it. And it gets me going in the mornings like it really pumps me up. And then I go and research all the founding fathers and realize how horrible they were. But it it gets me going at least. Sam Julien 17:36 Yeah, now, Hamilton; Amy was really into Hamilton. And so I kind of I'm like neutral towards musical theater. Like, I don't I don't dislike it. I don't you know, but Amy was really into it. And so when it came to Portland, I got us tickets and we went, and I'll admit, like, I loved it. I thought it was like it was not overrated at all like I kind of went into it expecting it to be a little overrated because it's so popular, but like, I thought it was fantastic. Bryan Robinson 18:07 There's a reason it won all those awards. Sam Julien 18:08 Yeah, I mean, some some things are hyped up because they're actually that great, you know, like, like Beyonce. Bryan Robinson 18:17 Yeah, exactly. I found that running to it actually works really well, too. So I'm trying to get into running and that has just the right beat for how bad I am at running. SoUnknown Speaker 18:26 Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's great. I am. I really I had seen In the Heights A long time ago. And so I already liked Lin-Manuel Miranda. But yeah, it's, it's a great yeah. If you ever have a chance, I don't know if In the Heights is still playing anywhere, but if you ever have a chance to see it, it's a really good one. Bryan Robinson 18:46 I didn't even know he had written anything before that. And I researched what he had done was like, Oh, you've done this before. Okay. Sam Julien 18:51 Yeah, yeah, he's Yeah, he's super talented. But that one is about like Washington Heights in New York and stuff like that. It's really great. Bryan Robinson 19:00 For someone indifferent towards towards musical theater you you've got at least that much now. Sam Julien 19:05 Yeah, that's true. I I kind of Yeah, I would say. Other than that though I'm I tend to be pretty neutral about about theater, I could take it or leave it. I respect it. And I respect that other people love it. It's just not it's just not my thing. Not my jam... Bryan Robinson 19:24 All right. And so let me let me ask, Is there anything that you would like to promote? Get out to the JAMstack community? Anything that you're doing that you won't get out there? Sam Julien 19:30 Yeah, I'll say on the on the professional side. Yeah, just keep an eye on Auth0 for JAMstack stuff because we're actively working on it. And, and if people have like input or things they want to talk about, we have a great community forum. So if you're running into authentication problems in JAMstack stuff, like definitely let us know because we're always kind of putting our ear to the ground and trying to figure out what problems people are having. So we can Try to solve them. Sam Julien 20:02 And then personally Yeah, the the Gatsby course on Thinkster. I'm really proud of it. I think it's a good course. And so that would be good. I'm also I just started, I'm starting this new project called Get a Job in Tech. I'm a self taught developer, I transitioned from finance. And I was lucky because I had some mentors that sort of shepherded me along the way, and not everybody has that. And so I'm starting this new, it's still really early, but basically, I plan on I'm already like, right, sending out emails and stuff and writing content for it, but it's basically to help people with the like, meta skills of getting your first job because I feel like a lot of people think, you know, they learned they learned some stuff on like, Free Code Camp or any any other great site on learning to code and then they sort of get stuck because they're like, okay, where's like, how do I actually get the Job, and you just sort of throw your resume up on a lot of places. And then you get these rejection letters that are like, you don't have any experience and you're like, no duh don't have any. Bryan Robinson 21:10 It's a Junior position, come on!Unknown Speaker 21:12 Yeah, like literally, like, that's what it is like. And so there's all these skills of like, like learning in public with GitHub and stuff like that, that like, not many people really teach you, you know, like, there's sort of an art to getting or getting a job and that kind of thing. So that I've been really thinking about that lately. And so I started that up as a sort of a labor of love. And where's that it's get a job in dot tech, basically, I'll, I'll paste in the link. Yeah. And then and then basically, everything I do is tracked at SamJulien.com so you can always go there and I have an occasional email list and stuff like that. So if you ever want to keep up with talks I'm doing or lessons I'm publishing on egghead or thinkest or anything like that. Bryan Robinson 22:00 Perfect. Yeah. Awesome. Well, thanks for taking the time to talk with us today and share your insights. And I hope that you keep doing awesome stuff at all zero and that your chickens eggs are delicious.Unknown Speaker 22:09 Thanks. Yeah. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. Bryan Robinson 22:12 Yeah, no problem. All right. Well take care. Bryan Robinson 22:18 All right, it is sponsored time, I want to take a second and thank this week's sponsor TakeShape. TakeShape calls, their offering a content platform. And that's, that's really the best description. They have a handy CMS, a static site generator, and a simple GraphQL API all ready to use on the JAMstack. Bryan Robinson 22:35 Beyond all that they also have new features coming in all the time, like their new Mesh product that allows you to mix and match data from multiple sources into one neat GraphQL interface. If all that sounds interesting, you be sure to go to takeshape.io/thatsmyjamstack to find out more. Bryan Robinson 22:53 And as always, I want to thank the JAMstack community for listening for responding on Twitter for talking about things in communities. Just for being an amazing place to work and to play and to spend my time. So if you like this podcast let me know by hitting the like, subscribe, all those good things and whatever podcast app you use, and until next week, keep doing amazing things and keep things jamming.Transcribed by https://otter.aiIntro/outtro music by bensound.comSupport That's my JAMstack by donating to their Tip Jar: https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/thats-my-jamstack

The end of 2019 has arrived. Let's recap Path of Exile through 2019 and end with a bang! Giveaway information:Twitter Tweet to RetweetReddit Post for Episode 6Join the party! Check out our website for more episodes and be sure to follow us on Twitter.www.foreverexiled.comTwitter @ForeverExiled82Path of Exile WebsiteWrecker of Days Builds ListFull Transcript of Episode:Justin: Welcome to forever Exiled. The Path of Exile podcast. This is technically Episode six, but it's going to be our bonus. New Year's Eve and Day episode. I am one of your host, Justin a k a. TagzTyler: and I'm Tyler Wrecker of Days.Justin: Make sure you check out the rest of this episode right up until the end because we may have a sexy giveaway coming up anyway. Ty, how are you doing? Well, how are you? Good. So this is gonna be our our extra bonus for fun. Super awesome. Episode six I agree. So, uh, path of exile G just released today their best of 2019 video, which was awesome. If you haven't checked it out, make sure you watch it. Maybe we'll put a link in the show notes just so you can find it. I think they're coming up with some more information on there. Accomplishments and bragging tomorrow, which is New Year's Eve will be tomorrow. So hopefully will be out there and live with everybody at the same time. So, yeah, let's let's ah, let's jump into it. So we figured it'd be kind of fun to look back a year at what grinding gear games development plan for 2019 was and assuming like we will continue this for the next 15 or 16 years, we'll be able to do this. We'll be able to do this at the end of each year and kind of see what was announced the previous year and sort of where things went from there. So we've got the development plan for 2019 from grinding gear games last year. 2019. Here's what they say. 2019 will see the release of four significant Path of Exile updates in the form of 3.6 and March 3.7 in June, 3.8 in September and 3.9 in December. These releases will follow the formula we have been using over the last few years, introducing a challenge league, various expansion features, new character, skill, archetypes to play, and masses of other fixes and quality of life improvementsTyler: while working on the 2019 updates. We also hope to make significant progress on the four point Omega expansion, which we now know as path of exile, too likely coming sometime in 2020. For those unfamiliar with our version numbering system, Once we've released Update 3.9, we are forced to number the next 14 point. Oh, for example, the version after 3.9 and March is 3.10 as we do not expect to release 4.0 in the first part of next year. Development of 4.0 is a massive task that is absolutely affected by our desire to continue to release sizable leagues at our usual pace. So we're taking our time and making sure it's ready before we decide on a release date. 20Justin: nine. Teen culminates in the Exile Con Fan convention in November, where we can announce and demonstrate December's 3.9 expansion, as well as a small preview of 4.0, this convention takes place approximately 2 to 3 weeks before the 3.9 release, so you should be able to play a near final build at the show. We expect to put Tickets are for sale in the next couple of weeks.Tyler: We're also putting the finishing touches on the PlayStation four version of Path of Exelon should be able to announce a release date in the near future. It's going to be a busy year.Justin: So that was the development plan for 2019 Fergie and I will say I think they hit all of them. They nailed it. Yeah, I think they did. And they were very good at their ah, super chilled idea of what four point I was going to be in comparison to what we found out November. So we're going to get to that part sort of Indian. Let's let's break down the league's because we've had now a year we've had were in the fourth league for this this year. So it's obviously three have been completed. Ones very, very new. So let's let's jump through each of them. So we'll go 3.63 point six was the synthesis leak.Tyler: Mmm. Do you rember what you bladeJustin: synthesis for me Now? I I don't entirely know. I do remember playing arc totems. Ah, for quite a bit of it, just because so synthesis was a huge cast early there were that was the league of ah, huge changes to spells and just casting in general, mainly kind of got kicked a little bit and just was left alone. But casting was a big one So for me, my main one was, uh, was arc totems and it actually carried me. I think I played it quite a bit. Brill League. And I think that one took me to 97 or so. I think ITyler: lied Well, and I laughed and I laughed. That was the one league where you are. Totems was just storing everything. You could have done it with your eyes closed. You're having a great time. And you bailed on it to make something else because you felt like it was too slow. And you're flying. I mean, it was like a split second. I couldn't even hit like the start stop button fast enough to to say how fast you were laying your total's. But it was too slow for you. And so you respect?Justin: Yeah, I don't remember. I don't remember too much what I did after that. Only because that that was a big league for me. Just in currency. I had the I can't remember the name of it, but the Mir dhe shield that I ended up selling for I remember selling all of my ark totem gear for I don't know, 60 or 70 exults and just playing around and going crazy and then not carrying after that point. What did you play them? You remember?Tyler: Uh, I don't remember playing it, but I had it written down. It was how I do my lists of characters. My 3.6 build was an R f character. Okay, remember playing it, but I'm sure it did. Great.Justin: Nice. So, synthesis. It was not a great release. So it wasn't. Ah, it wasn't my favorite. While we can talk about favorite ones later. But the system wasTyler: confusing. Yeah, and they're confusing.Justin: And there's not a whole lot of it left in theTyler: game. No, no, it definitely went by the wayside in terms of how it could fit into the current court game. Um, you barely ever see. It really only exists for as I've seen it. Um, it only exists in Zana maps. When you see her in a map, you could have a synthesis map as one of your options. And that's really the only way that I've come across it. Naturally. I don't remember any other way that they've tried to infuse it, but that's that's it. I remember. Sorry. Go ahead. Go ahead. I was just gonna say I remember it being a league. That was as as much effort as they put into it. I remember it being a leak, that I was completely happy to just skip the content, just go right past whoever was that was doing all the since this stuff and I just play the map and do the atlas. Normally,Justin: the idea behind it when it was first announced seemed really cool to me. The way it actually played out, I found overwhelmingly confusing. It was really difficult to plan out the I don't even know what you would call it. The map type thing that they had. I didn't find it. There were so many issues where ah ah, block the memory segments. Yeah, an area would, like, clear out for some reason, Or you couldn't. I just didn't like how that function work. There was way too much extra added to the game. And can you even go there? Can you see? What was it called? The nexus, I think. Yeah. I think that's what it was called. Can you still together? IsTyler: every Texas not that I know of? No, I don't think you can get the pieces of memory anymore, but you can still get synthesized items. That cannon all within a synthesized map.Justin: Yeah, it was It was It was a I don't know what the word is that it was ah, valiant attempt to try and make something new to the game. But to me, it was way, way, way, way too much. It was like, what was the one in the previous year with the the boards and all the lines and everything that would, uh, go between all of the bosses? It was the one with the change of the craft.Tyler: Um oh, syndicate. No, no, it's not called syndicate. I was calling in to getJustin: the mail. It was to me, it was like that. It was adding way too much of the game, and I just wanted to kill stuff, but so that actually kind of leads into legion. So that was synthesis. It was a fun league, but I did not touch the league mechanics almost atTyler: all. It's It's one of its unique, I think since I've started playing, which was in the early two's, um, it was unique in the sense that there's a lot of the times where they have to make a lot of changes. Right? Remember with synthesis, they had that blue stuff that would be coming in, and it would really start to cave in on us what it was speed game, right? So they had to modify it a lot. And even though this was now 2018 but you mentioned betrayal, they modified betrayal a lot to try and balance it for people that were leveling cleared two people that like Game and so that happens in a lot of leagues, and that's just how it goes. But it was one of those leagues where this bite all the changes that they made to try and balance it properly so that it could be playable. It was the mechanic itself that held a lot of people. That, and just matching the memory fragments, being able to store the fragments, figuring out how they work to the best ability was from what I found from what I read. From what I remember, that was the hardest part about the league.Justin: I had a blast in the league, but I did not enjoy the league mechanic. I loved the castor changes. I love the you know the skill reworks. I really, really liked a lot of the changes that they made for game play, but I did not like the guy just didn't enjoy the synthesis side of of the league. But are we good with 3.6? Yeah, let's move on. So 3.6 goes through, 3.7 comes out in. That's legion. And now legion. I think one of my favorite things about legion the Legion, was it was dummy proof. It was relatively simple. It was very much breach ish. Not obviously the same exactly is breach. But the idea that you would just come across them while you play it. You could do them while you were in a map or in his own, and it didn't require you to really have to do much else. You got to fight additional mobs, and there was obviously other stuff that could happen within that you know how the league was set up. But the overall way that it worked was super simple. Super simple.Tyler: Yeah, You see it in the map, you hit the button, you just kill as much as you can. Yeah. Maybe they'll kill you if you unlock too much there. Too tough. Or maybe you killed them all. And then you move on, you pick up your loot, you keep going. And I loved it. Absolutely loved it.Justin: Yeah. And then so with that league, they also came up with a huge Malay rework, which wasTyler: awesome, especially because the amount of crying melee fans did in 3.6 for the castor league. It was really nice toe. Have those wines dissipate in 3.7? Yeah, andJustin: and while it was a really, really cool mainly rework, which has really a lot of that stuff even now it's still very useful to Malay builds. A lot of the changes that they made are still super appreciated. It also became literally the cyclone leak. It did. It did. And because of the way that legion worked, I loved the legion part where you would just you'd find it in a map, click it, you'd break a bunch of stuff. You kill a bunch of guys and you keep moving on. I wasn't a huge fan of the endgame side of it where you would go to that that I can't remember what it was called the other area. And you could, you know, based on how many you wanted to do, was the domain of the timeless conflict. Look at you. Ah, that part to me was not my favorite. Only because I had seen what people could do in there with insane gear. And it just made you feel like, very weak. Didn't like. Yeah, yeah. What did you play? Do you remember what you played in that in that leak?Tyler: Yeah, that was my blocking build my trigger Happy build that I do. And ah, it was perfect for it. Um, I was using Cyclone with it. Now I've recently changed it. The last leaguer to To what's it called Laid Storm. But I did Cyclone for that league with Max block build. And it would have worked really well except trigger skills had almost 100% reproduction crash associate ID for the first month. So I really tried to play, but because I had all three trigger skills on my on my build, I didn't know and they didn't really know they did. It wasn't fixed for about the first month, so Unfortunately, I didn't get a lot of playing time andJustin: didn't actually last that long. Was it aTyler: month? It was a month before the trigger skills Scott fixed. It takes time to figure out like that for long was the longest time because it was a cyclone build. They were really focused on trying to fix the mechanics and cycle behind the scenes because they thought cycling is causing a lot of crashes. It ended up causing very few, but it was a focus and it's just how it works, so not as a criticism. It's just what was impacting my specific build took quite a while to fix. And so by then, two people that I play with were kind of Douglas Aly.Justin: Maybe. I definitely don't think it was specific to the type of build you play, though, because that was the league where Cyclone became channeling and that made a huge difference to what you could do with it. And so you saw so many of the on effect skills now in used with cyclone, which was cool. Now I played flicker strike on Lee becauseTyler: I don't know why I actually don't remember what made me think A flicker strike. You're trying to make me throw up.Justin: Maybe. Maybe it was my goal. Just 100%. Be sure I wouldn't play with you. I'm not sure, but, uh, I will say it was the first league in I have played since was April 2012 in the in the beta. This was my very first headhunter drop where it actually draw, right? And so that was in one of the Legion things that was actually glacier farming, which was a big thing for me in that league. And I remember it dropped as a unique leather belt. And I was laughing because Ethan, who was who was in my office at the time, and I, you know, kind of just said to him, Of course, it's a tease. I'm not gonna pick it up. What a waste. I know it's gonna be garbage worms, Moulter. Whatever it is, um and so I most over top of it in both of us, just like crap their pants. Because it was it was actually centered, so that that was probably my favorite part of it.Tyler: That's if you were to have a highlight reel. That's that'd be rightJustin: at the top. Yeah, it was cool to have. I've had ahead 100 before, but they've always been through currency, so this is kind of cool to actually have one draw.Tyler: That's awesome.Justin: Yeah. And then So this was also the change. This latte league changed to the five sockets, which obviously allowed you forgetting to That owe me and you were talking aboutTyler: Oh, you mean the map device was able to have five sockets? Yeah, you could find that. I was pretty cool, right? Still in the game, they say still in the game. Is it if this didn't remove it, but I I haven't come across it, YouJustin: know, myself, either. Yeah, it and then timeless jewels were and they were in that the guy didn't play much with, um, they confused the hell out of me. I don't want to see a jewel with just a bunch of numbers, and you have to just put it in to find out what it was just just wasn't for me, But it was fun, Lee. I liked I liked legion. So, Jenny, we're good with legion.Tyler: I believe so.Justin: Legion then leads into blight, So blight comes out. I found it, actually, at little shocking that it was tower defense. It made me laugh when they announced it. And this was the league of monster minion buffs, which I knew you were in love with, obviously, since I readTyler: it. I am a minion. Pet lover, depending. What game you come from. I am hollow vote minions. My league. It was fantastic.Justin: So what did you play that league?Tyler: Zombies. What? Well, I did. They made a lot of I wasn't originally gonna plays office. I was. There's 11 or two of my guides. I've only played on Collins. Wanna have a plate on PC? And so I really wanted to play one of the other ones. But there were so many changes to minions and not just minions like the core gem like zombies was modified substantially from 3.73 point eight. But then they added an insane amount of very different but also powerful. Um, support gems like feeding, frenzy and meat shield and death Mark. And then they changed the values of the corresponding like minion damage and minion speed to accommodate those new additions and how minions leveled and then the whole necromancer ascendancy. It was so different that I had to play it just to see what it was like for the sake of replying to guide responses. But it was really good. ObviouslyJustin: it was the first league for me since again. I want to say it was backing closed Beta. Uh, when I was playing, I think one of my very first builds I ever played was minions. And I remember one of the very first things I ever message the developers to say was there needs to be a counter like the idea that I can't see how many zombies I have out is really difficult to play, how a minion build. And so this was, I think, my first time touching minions. Besides, I played with us rs a little bit, but I don't think I touch onions for years, years and years. Of course, with this league, you really there wasn't I mean, I could have played other stuff, but it just said it made so much sense to play around with with millions, and it was fun. It was the easiest league start I've ever had ever in the history of path of exile. I remember going, but this is something's wrong. This is.Tyler: Well, you didn't zombies for your league start, right? You didn't do any different. Yeah,Justin: No, I went zombies and it was just It was better. It was so smooth. And I remember laughing to you. Maybe a month in just jokingly saying that. Oh, boy, you're zombies are going to take a hit. I think it was actually right after celestial zombies came out. I was like, All you're screwed. That's it. That's the curse. Once you could stay with celestial. You're done. Yeah, So that that actually, for me, blight didn't last a super long time. But I do remember ending it with celestial everything. Of course, I got every single celestial, empty X had a bunch of the minions in the celestial on. Did you? Did you like the blighted leak? Did you like the towerTyler: defense again? I really liked it. I'm I was apathetic to the tower defense part, but I am a huge fan. My favorite leagues are the ones that just let me kill stuff right away. And so I love things like blight. You know, I love it when I have an insane amount of rogue exiles on the map. I just love it. What is it? Reach where they come out of the ground. Just love it. So this one was similar to that? I didn't have to go anywhere else to find my to do the lead content. And they were just comes rushing at you, which is great. Um, I I was apathetic to the tower stuff, so I basically just looked for the closest checkpoint. Her choke point or two made them slow and then let my minions deal with the rest. And Natalie, because zombies were so overpowered, that strategy did work. It was their intense to make towers almost required, unless you had an insanely over powerful built. So, um, I did like it. I love that the minions just came rushing at you, or I guess not passing pod, whatever that was called, but yeah, no, I really liked it. If if it worked, if it worked.Justin: Sure. I think my favorite part about Blight was sister Cassius. Oh, here singing and was listening in. And she just didn't give a damn about you either. Was almost irritated that you were there.Tyler: Yeah, Yeah, she needed you. And that pissed her off. Yeah, it was pretty funny. I do the one thing about blight. It would have been It was very difficult. I primarily play console and it people had to really, really do specific builds that weren't busy for a Minion League. Blight was too busy, right? I mean, everybody's has a lot of minions out, and then there's an insane amount of monsters out with a lot of hit points. And there was It was just a slide show on normal consoles, not just the original P s foreign Xbox one, but the the second version of thumb. Even some people with the Higher and PS four and Xbox one X they they'd run into some pretty big slide. So slideshow stuff, too, depending on it. So for ah, Minion League blight kind of counteracted itself with with what would be overpowered and successful. So a lot of the streams that you would see we're primarily PC, especially as you got later into the league, because only a higher NPC could actually handle a full blight map. The full board of minions. But I really liked it. I just wish it I just wishJustin: it worked, right? I do remember hearing people struggling with the blighted maps in later in game, just with the amount of stuff that would happen on your own screen. And then you multiply that by a 1,000,000,000 with the amount of mobs that were coming outTyler: and they didn't even implement it into console immediately. It was so challenging because of the frame rate issues and such on PC. They implemented it into 3.9 right away. But they didn't don't console and they're fixed on console was to just make less paths less minions. And it's just so easy. Mmm, It's so easy. It's Ah, I mean, I'm glad it's in it. I'm glad it's in it, butJustin: I've actually done them more while I run into them. Yeah, me, too. It's kind of nice It I guess it's nice because they're not so often. I never I never had a problem with the the Tower defense, but I also never cared to do much else Besides the reason ones. I would hit the ice ones and then just sit back in the middle and let my let the minions just do their thing in the middle. Yeah, I rememberTyler: doing. I like I like it. I don't mind. Some people have an issue when they have to stay in a spot and fight enemies. I don't care as long as there's enemies and I really like blight and breach. What's the abyss for those types of ones? I really like them. Overall, I thought it was a great legal.Justin: And then we went into the current league, which there's not a whole lot to talk about, just cause it's so new.Tyler: Well, they nerved one minion from 3.8. Do you know which one mother, actually, too. That's true. It was, in vectors, passions on these songs andJustin: then the support James. Now that being said, we've talked about this in the in the patch notes, ones necessary changes, maybe a little heavy handed. Hopefully, it's adjusted a little bit, but, uh,Tyler: yeah, because I think it was fair. I was pretty broken hearted, and I wasn't overly kind with, uh, my opinion of it, But I do think it wasJustin: after the human stuff. Yeah, it was kind of necessary. Now they did a huge Bo Ri work with 3.9Tyler: 3.9. That was the bowl leak or is the bulletJustin: is in the bowl league? So what now? It's funny that we say it's the bowl EQ. What are you playing?Tyler: Playing about build and I'm playing a build every every boat skill got buffed or modified to be relevant is this league. But there were two to Bo won support and one primary scale active skill that got Ah, I guess nerved would be appropriate. I played elemental hit. I lost a lot of damage compared to 3.8, and I'm playing with its link to the ballistic totem support, which is brand new. Um, they changed that from the attack, told him support which originally you could only lay one at a time unless you invested further in the tree with items. Now it can lay three so and blisters are brand new to the league. This league, too. It's a new type of attack totem that you have to lay within Malay Range as opposed to being able to swell. So But yeah, uh, my my specific build got hit hard, but this is a bow league, and people are going both crazy and they're lovingJustin: it. I skipped Bo's entirely for this league so far. I decided to go a spectral throw. I'm having a really good time, actually. Meta morph. I have struggled a little bit with some stuff. First time with S S f for quite a long time. But it's I like it. The Metamor stuff again. I have found this league more challenging, I think, for in a positive way, Not just like Okay, dump chaos, damage on me, like in syndicate or right, uh, make a stupid area that closes on me within, like, three seconds. As soon as I move like synthesis. This is This is legit. Like, if it's difficult, it's my fault. I made it harder. I love that. I absolutely love that.Tyler: Yeah, me too. I love that you can take You could make it. I mean, it's still gonna be a boss fight if you took all white items. But you can take the easiest body parts and make the easiest boss you can. And if you have a really weak build, you'll you'll do. Okay, right. But if you have ah, pretty good. Not the best billed as you're leveling and you do all the hardest ones, it's gonna be a hard fight, and it's I thought it was really well balanced right off the bat. A lot of the changes they've made weren't to these new bosses. That was really cool. One thing that I love that meta morph added just into the core game was completely was much harder enemies, they added. Armor and elemental increase. Resistance is in chaos. Resistance is they increased the life off bosses and enemies and rare Sze everywhere. And they just made the game. They didn't increase their damage, but they increased their survivability, and it has made the game itself a lot harder. Meta morph is a great league and the changes they made to the core game that they introduced with meta morph and perfect timing. Of course, because you're making a boss league and then you're adding all these extra boss survivability things into the game as well. I was perfect cohesion, and I think they did a really good job. They haven't changed any of it. It's awesome.Justin: Yeah, I don't even remember. Are the changes for that tied to the metamorphosis? Igor, This conquers of the atlas. It's kind of hard to tell which was for what.Tyler: It's well, it's all the same, right? I mean, it's tied two unique enemies. It's tied to this of the very specific map. Bosses were individually tweaked. Yeah, I mean, some of them boss fights were completely rebound anyway. But for those existing ones there, they were specifically tweet so that they were an appropriate level. It wasn't just flat, you know, This this tear all got the same percentage of health increase. From what I remember them saying anyway, so it's all intertwined.Justin: So then tied in with 3.9 and metamorphoses this the big end game change to the atlas of Now we're into the conquers of the atlas. We've got new new endgame. Bosses knew endgame story, and I mean, we're both relatively new into it. I think you're a bit further than I am, but again, I've had a blast. It's made. It's made mapping much more challenging at a lower tier, and that's fun. I like that.Tyler: Yeah, definitely. I'm I think it's it's done a very good job. So far, I've heard that higher up that there's some some issues with people that were David Cook to complete certain quests or boss fights, or that certain items weren't falling within a proper area. But for the most part, this has been this league tied with the new endgame that they've created. To me, it's it path of excels always tried to be a very difficult game. And trying to incorporate what people want in the game and what they want in the game is obviously a very tricky thing. I well, I would assume for them say so in their interviews. And it's, I think this has done just a fantastic job of making the game difficult while keeping the game powerful.Justin: Yep, Yeah, I agree. And it's again. It's a little hard to judge because we're three weeks, two weeks into it, into the league, so it's still got a bit of legs behind it before we see how it all plays out. But so far it's been a positive experience.Tyler: Yeah, the one thing I really like about this new endgame for Metamor are not for many more, but the conquers of the atlas is that you are going to see the same bosses that you're gonna fight it. The end throughout the atlas. Not just that. Yeah, and I think that is so good. G has tried to make this game more accessible to new people over and over without making the game easier. And the huge problem that a lot of new people, if they made it to t fifteens and sixteen's, which they would be able to clear a T 15. No problem. They'd crush the Boston problem than they'd meet a guardian and they get crushed. And this new method that they have of fighting the same boss but then in multiple tears as you get further and further into the atlas. It's nice because you're now familiar with the boss as it's getting harder, and I think it's a lot more accessible to new people. And I think they did a really good job considering that, too.Justin: I think it'll be curious to see how that plays out as we get further into the Alice, because for me, I it's hard for me to say I definitely agree with you. It's cool that you're already hitting endgame bosses in like tear fours and fives, and that's just gonna you know, you're gonna only able to expand on that as you get further along. But I haven't gotten there yet, so it's hard to say, Yeah, I'm loving it It just as much when I'm into your 15th and 16th yet So that's cool. Yeah, it has been good so far. All right, so here's a question for you. We'll start. We'll start with the negative side first just because I know you're a positive positive guy. So, yeah, what was your least favorite league? And why of those four? And it's kind of hard because I know madam, or so new, but I highly doubt it. It will be the one. But which of those we've got 3.6 a synthesis. 3.7. His legion 3.8 is blight. And then the current 3.9 metamorphose, which was your least favorite league. And whyTyler: synthesis was easy to ignore if you didn't like it. Legion. I really liked the mechanics, but my specific build didn't get fixed for a month. I think my least favourite was blight. Now I really liked blight, but there's the common sense of making your meta being capable of doing your mechanic, and they didn't coincide at all and because I'm a console player and G knows about their console games, and they need to be able to make their game for the least efficient platform that they release it on. I think blight was my least favorite because I couldn't play it on my favorite platform.Justin: Yeah, okay, so for me, my least favorite would be It's probably synthesis. But it's kind of unfortunate for me to say that because I played synthesis much, much longer than blamed much longer, I would say almost twice as long as Blake. I played synthesis, and that was because I loved the changes to spells. It made the milk fund to play. But I absolutely hated the league mechanic. I just could not. I didn't like it. It wasn't fun at all. Where is Blight it? Ah, it almost seemed a little bit too easy. And I didn't have any interest in the the the Blight mechanic. So and that literally was the endgame. Yeah. You know, as you leveled, there wasn't anything new that you were introducing towards the end game. And so I found a burnt out real fast, but synthesis for me. If I'm looking at it, from a league perspective, I hated. Synthesis is engaged. I did not like any of the the nexus stuff. I felt completely lost all the time on that one, like figuring it out. So for me, that that was me I loved, absolutely loved the actual plane of that league and the skills and the reworks and stuff. One of my favorites. But the actual lead mechanic to me was the blight wasn't poorly done. It wasn't that the league mechanic was poorly done. It just I didn't interest me, was great. But the synthesis league mechanic, to me was a little bit shortsighted and definitely wasn't one of my least favorite ones. But now let'sTyler: move away from the brightest guys so I could see how synthesis confuses you.Justin: I know I like simple, simple. So let's move awayTyler: from you go. You go first on this one, you go first.Justin: Okay, So this is gonna be our favorite, which was our favorite league. And why you go legion for sure. I'm really liking meta morph. I can't say for sure until the end of this league where they'll line up Legion introduced so many Malay where he works that I've been working for. Well, we're looking forward to forever. And so I tend to lean more towards the mainly type skills. It's just more fun for me, and I loved a lot of the changes that they did and Legion League Mechanic was was dummy proof. It was It was so simple to play. I wasn't a really big fan of that hole. Put the five things and I did it, you know, I played it. I did beat the one with all five, and but I felt like it was so forced to go that the cyclone route, if you really want, especially once the headhunter had dropped it. It made it really easy to go, and I just have a couple swords and put on the belt in the hallway. But the the lead mechanic to me, was a lot of fun. It was within the map. Side is what I'm referring to like. It made it very, very easy to just play the atlas to just play my build. Maley was strong, and so for me, as a Finnish league, it's the only one I can compare it to, because anymore so far has actually been a lot of fun, but we're like 23 weeks in, so I can't really give it the top for me. So what about you?Tyler: Catch for me was it's meta morph. Really, I know we're only that into it, but it's ah, it's harder right now. I know. Adding all the resists in defense for enemies is isn't necessarily for the league itself, right? That's just core. Game change is kind of like the endgame. But coupling that with adding bosses that you can choose how difficult they are you could specifically choose rewards like I want more rare items are away. Should I do, ah, unique item or should I do more currency drops and you're actually guaranteed at least something of what you've chosen. Now you don't know what the body parts are gonna offer you money from all of your options. You you're picking your rewards, which is so great in a game like this, you're picking the difficulty based on the reward, which is so great you can pick the location in the map where you're gonna fight. Um, it's just it's awesome. And I love one thing that, like I mentioned before about G one in this game. Hard, but people wanting to clear it in the blink of an eye. This slows the game down, right? Like we've we've talked who will get to excel con in a bit. But one thing that they really wanted to do with Pee wee, too, was really slow. The game down. And this is a huge step in that direction, even a year before Pee Wee to comes out is you're slowing down these enemies air rough. You need a really good build to destroy the really hard metamorphose and a moderately leveled build. Or one that's still trying to find its gear, still trying to find that right to weapon full of mods that they would boost their DPS quite a lot. It's gonna be a challenge, and you're and you're making tough choices. I love Metamor for that, and it's and it's metamorphose itself is stable, rock solid, stable, right? A lot of the issues that have come out with 3.9 have actually been with a new endgame, not with metamorphosis thing. It's been bug free, but I just think it's been the most stable. It's been the most exciting. It's the most. I'm spending time looking at my screen, choosing what I want to do. It's not just blind. I love it. I absolutely love it.Justin: Who are the 3.9 for you? That's nice. Yeah, alright, it's a legion. I do like metamorphic. We'll see how it plays out. Okay, so you actually brought it up. But let's one of the final things that they talked about in their development plan for 2019 was Excel Con. So x o Khan was obviously a huge deal for people who like Path of Excel. Ah, whether you went or not, just the idea that they were doing it was awesome. The fact that this indie development game was going to be, you know, has grown to the size of holding its own conference or a game. And then not only are they doing it, but they're gonna hold it in literally the for this place, every other country on Earth, that that's awesome. The fact thatTyler: a good turnout they had to increase what they had to upgrade their venue.Justin: I think I heard when we were so we I got to go, which was awesome. I went with my son, who's Ethan and and we I mean, we had a blast. He definitely had a huge, really, really good time when he was there. And I know me and you had talked about possibly going and it just didn't work out. But, ah, the I can't remember the number I want to say It was around 1313 100 people, is what we were told out was there, which is insane, especially given a huge percentage of those were not local. And when I was looking it up just out of curiosity, the closest besides Australia, the closest place that you could fly from was 12 hours away, which is just It just made me laugh because it's yeah, it literally is the furthest place away from everywhere else on Earth. Besides, you know, the people in Australia. But when we were in a cool when we were down there, I'll just quickly throw this in there when we were down there, actually made a reddit post because I was floored at the way that the people that were there were acting towards each other and the community sort of just in general. It really took me back to beta days of P o E. It just was Everybody was friendly. Everybody was hanging out, you know, like they're just was It was a really cool vibe there. And that's coming from, Uh, no, I'm not old, but an older guy. I mean, I think probably the average age I would have guessed was probably 27 28 there. But it was just cool. Like people were Tibor Super friendly. I mean, Ethan, he's 18. He had a blast, so it was a really cool experience. And then, uh, well, I mean, we should get to really the 22 major announcements, I guess maybe three. So we had 3.9, which was obviously this expansion in the whole change to the conquerors of the atlas. A cool, cool announcement that came out mobile announcement. Saving the big one for the mobile announcement was hilarious, because I remember sitting in the theater and watching people figure, you know, are they out of their minds, like, is this is this really is Are they lying? Everybody kind of thought, you know, until you saw how much you know they had the fall guy, which was hilarious. in their video and ah, and then Christmas, becauseTyler: that's his job to raid.Justin: Oh, it was so well done, though. It was so well done. I hope it was his idea, because I think that that it was one of the funniest titles for anybody in theTyler: whole in anyJustin: of the videos. TheTyler: mobile fall guy, Global fallJustin: guy. But it was a good view. And then Chris kind of talking afterwards about how it was hard to announce this last year made me crack up.Tyler: Oh, that he was so nervous. What? Cono Not sure what they were going to do.Justin: Yeah. And then, of course, the huge p o e. To which was, you know, the pre announced four point. Oh, but is actually gonna be path of exile, too. So I'm curious. What? What did you think? I mean, the ex con was so big, we can't cover obviously all of it. But now what? What was sort of yourTyler: overall? So for those listening, Justin, Nathan got to go. I, of course, did not get to, but we were messaging quite a lot throughout the entire conference, and it was really cool to get their perspective of to what was happening when what I could see. And so I was watching on Twitch and YouTube, and I got to see a lot of the interviews that Justin you think you can get to see while they were there because you could just can't see everything live. But they only had one channel that was streaming some of the interviews. And so I think obviously my favorite part of ex Sal Khan was the path of exile to announcement. But the best part of that was when I think it was Chris that came out after when Chris he was almost crying and he was having such a hard time controlling his emotions and his love for his game, his passion for the community that plays. He was so overwhelmed with people's excitement over what they were doing and their excitement to play even more and get more. I just can't imagine what it would be like. They were saying that they, for the longest time there was like four people. Only the people that were allowed in his office without knocking knew that 4.0 was actually gonna be p o. B two and it was only hey was saying that it was just nobody knew and for that to just get off their chests for them to be able to talk about everything. It was one of my other favorite moments along with Chris. Almost crying in a good way was when Jonathan maybe maybe this quick maybe was both. But I think it was Jonathan. He sat down for one of his, um, interviews, twitch interviews, and he was so calm. He was just so exciting, was so relaxed and he just said, Ask me anything. There's no more secrets And he was just so happy to just talk about anything. And I thought that was really cool because there's so much that's still going to come. And I mean, when you compare this to the Deauville for announcement, it just blows it out of the water. And the things that these are even comparable G was thinking about for even longer, It seems. It's just It was It was so exciting. I can't wait for another 19 ascendancy classes while we're on the subject.Justin: Yeah, it's gonna be cool. So I haven't I mean, you know this story and there's There's obviously a few of our friends that we know locally and that our family, friends and stuff no, this story and very few people outside of that would obviously know about this. Besides, there was a picture, but one of my one of my favorite sort of experiences when we were there because there were a lot, I mean, just that being in New Zealand on its own was amazing. That that country is beautiful. Yeah, but we were the day before the exile con event we had run into about, I don't know, we had met just because Ethan wanted to go out and do all of the meet ups and stuff, and I was following along with him. We met quite a few people on Dhe, some really, really cool people while we were out there that we hung around with and, you know, would go for lunch and go exploring with. And so we were. We were walking with three other guys to other guys. I don't remember. There were I think there were four or five of us, but we were walking down one of the main streets right by where X Sal Khan was gonna be taken taking place. And as we're walking down the street, this guy's walking towards us and he's wearing a path of exile shirt and right off the battles I cooled. My God, that's Chris And he's just by himself. He's just walking up. But the funniest part is he kind of looks at our group and he sees that. I think four of the people in our group are wearing path of XL shirts and at this, or jackets or something. And at this point path of exile like or a story? The ex con event hasn't started yet. There's not likeTyler: the next day or something. It'sJustin: gonna be the next day. There's not a ton of people down, like in that area yet that are, you know, path of exile people. And so he looks over at us and he smiles and he's like, Hey, guys! And so you know, will you stop? We're like, Oh, hey, how's it going? And he he pulls his phone out. He's like, Do you guys mind if I take a picture with you and in my head I'm thinking, What the hell? And it didn't seem like everybody else was grasping that it was him. And the thing is, he had shaved like he was freshly shaved, which is not his normal look at all. And so we're kind of like, Yeah, sure for sure. And so he takes his phone, puts it into the selfie and holds it up high and takes a picture of himself with, like the 45 of us standing behind him, smiling and he turns around. He laughs, and he's like he mentioned the fact that, you know, a bunch of us were wearing path of exile stuff and he hit. The comment was, I need to take a picture so I can show people that people give a shit about my stuff. And of course it made his life. And so then he kind of looks at us for a second awkwardly is like, Do you guys want a picture? And in my and I'm like I grabbed Ethan. I pushed him. I'm like, Yeah, of course we want a picture like get in there. And so we take this picture of the four of them standing with Chris Wilson just in the middle of the street, and he's like, Thanks, guys, have a great you know, conference and was so great seeing you. He takes off and even kind of looks a measly and he's familiar. LikeTyler: what? Who is that like, Oh, my God, that's Chris Wilson.Justin: And he freaks out. Like what? It was a lot of fun, and he was So he was so nice. He actually recognized us when he was when Ethan was in line to go and get his signature, he wouldn't. God is like map signed by a bunch of the developers and stuff. And so he took pictures with him again. But, yeah, it was It was fun. It was It was a lot of fun. It was really cool to watch. You know, stuff happened through him as well. So yeah, it was cool. But so your favorite announcement would have been purely toTyler: announcement there was. I mean, there was so much interesting stuff that we've talked about in other episodes and that we have lined up for the future episodes. But my favorite announcement was most definitely peewee to her entire. Do that.Justin: Yeah, it was very cool. It was a fun to sort of hear the reaction, which I'm sure people experienced it anywhere they were if they were listening and cared about path of excel, just the idea that they were coming up with two and that it was gonna coincide with one andTyler: yeah. Oh, just so I have three very specific things that excite me. Ah, lot of appeal. We too. But what is it that you are looking? I mean, we have I know we have, Ah, an episode coming up about this. But what is short, Quickly. What are a couple of things that really excite you about beauty too? Well,Justin: I feel like a lot of it'll safer. Probably a future episode. But I would say right off the top of my head, I just love the idea of a new story line. Okay, you know, just that whole new I've been playing path of exile for a long time. So and as of you and it's it's kind of cool to think that there's gonna be an entirely new storyline to follow. There is way too much for me to say what like my actual favorite stuff is, and we'll talk about that obviously coming up, But yeah, I think just the idea that there's a whole new storyline that's gonna be coming along isn't is very cool. What about you?Tyler: Slower paced game play? New gym system. 19 newest sentences. The fact that they're going to have what was a 38? It was 19. That's currently 19 right yet 631 Yet Okay, so 38 sentences that are going to be different and all have the ability to have multiple place 1000 builds within each. That's mind going.Justin: It'll be cool to see if there's 38 different ones. That's aTyler: lot. Oh my goodness, I e My brain's exploding thinking of voting.Justin: So yeah, so I mean, overall, though with the information that they gave on exile con and and sort of, their announcements back in 20 the beginning of 2019 for it, I would say it was a hit. Think they kind of nailed it? It really seemed to go Well, they seem to be really happy with how it went. And everyone that I ran into and spoke to their just loved it like every single person had a blast. Sweet. Oh, yeah. It was really good.Tyler: What about mobile? You gonna play?Justin: I have played it. You played it while I was there is true. It was It's cool. You know what? They've done a really good job with it. It's It's It's very simple to play very simple to just, you know, play with you with your thumbs. I'm not a mobile game person. I don't tend to play very many games on the mobile. If I was made me, I can't think of maybe flying. I tend to do work that when I'm flying. So I don't know, Maybe if I was maybe if I was just looking for something to do, it's simple enough to pick up and it will be free. So I'm sure I will install it. Uh, hopefully, hopefully by the time that they come out with it, it doesn't try to set your phone on fire because it runs very, very hot. They gave phones that you could test with, so I don't know what what models of these phones they were, but your hands were like, Yeah, it's like you took something out of the oven by the time you had played it for about 2025 minutes. Yeah. Would you playTyler: it mobile I'll download it if my phone can handle it. Um, but I'm I'm just it really impressed. Yeah, I'm excited for it. I'll give it a shot. I'll try and make time for you, But I'm I'm not gonna go out of my way because I play on call. It's a land PC as well, but I'm excited to try it. I hope my phone complaint, and if it does, I'll definitely forced myself. Thio, give us some time and I'm sure it'll be great. One of my favorite lines from Path of exile to, though, was when I think it was, Chris said. We don't care if it's successful, but if it's not, we don't care. If we make money like they don't even have micro transactions lined up for it, they might not. Even I don't think we're going to. It's just a game. It's just free and it's We wanted to be a really good mobile game if it makes money, fine. But they don't even see how it's going to make money. And if it doesn't okay like it's a mobile game for mobile people, that's all it is and I thought that was really cool because it solidifies. I remember the rage when Xbox came out with as the first console, the first non PC platform for Pee Wee, too, and a lot of PC land exploded in rage. And so PlayStation had a much friendlier release, of course. And so it's it's nice for PC players or just console only players to know that that they're not going to be overlooked because of a new focus of income. So if the false really cool,Justin: especially because there could have been that's right now like there is a there's a lot of money that can be made a mobile. So the fact that they're not putting the focus on it is really nice. Well, so yeah, I would say, I would say with their development notes from 2019 I'm really excited to see what the 2020 ones will come out with it in the next few days because they stayed true to damn near everythingTyler: they were spot on. Yeah, I think the only thing that it will be a little bit off and by no criticism at all is just their timeline for Pee Wee, too. I think it's 21. You were reading it. It was like some time in 2020. Maybe early. Maybe not Now they're thinking, but absolute earliest is the very end of 2020 Likely 2021. But peewee to always any time of year. I'm just too excited.Justin: Yeah, I feel like I heard it going all the way up to 3.12. So I'm you know, that gives at least three more leagues. Nine more months. Eso maybe the very, veryTyler: end. Well, we'll see. I don't really care. I'll release it over Christmas Tree. Oh, man,Justin: I hope they do so bad. That's the December release. Oh, merry Christmas. Be a means fixing only p o e one will continue to work on. That would be the best Christmas gift. Oh, we could talk about so much. Yeah, All right. So let's let's end this one off. I think this was this was cool that it was fun to look back. It's sort of what they did in 2019 and and now, and sort of give us an idea of what to look forward to for 2020. So we wanted to do a giveaway. I think it's gonna be fun. We're gonna make it super simple. There's gonna be two ways to enter in a post a reddit post on the show notes. All you got to do is post on that. Tell us what league was your favorite and why we don't care. Which was the your least favorite. Let's keep positive, that's what Red it's four positivity. That's right, you know, show some love as well, if you have you been enjoying the podcast or give us some constructive criticism. But all we need to see is a post showing us which league was your favorite and why, maybe what build you played. So that's one way to enter. Be on Reddit. Yeah, we'll post the link to it in the show notes for for this podcast, so you'll be able to find it anywhere. You're listening to this podcast. The link will be in the description or notes for it. Ah, and then the other way is to Retweet. We're gonna have a tweet coming out as soon as this episode goes live. If you're not following us, check us out on Twitter at forever exiled 82 we will have a tweet specifically for Episode six and Our Giveaway, So make sure you re tweet that if you've got Twitter. So those are the two ways to get entered and which playing for is you get to pick. We've got three options. It's either the bass Lisk core supporter Pack, the grand Sanctum Supporter Pack or the Eternal Damnation supporter pack. If it turns out you, for some odd reason, have all three or don't like them, then we'll just get you the equivalent value in points. Ah, to your account. So yeah, that's it. So we've got Red a Twitter win some goodies, and we're going to announce the winner Jury in Episode eight. So we have Episode seven still coming out at its regular time. This was sort of our bonus, one coming out for New Year's Eve and New Year's Day. So happy, Happy New Year's and, ah, we're gonna have Episode seven coming out of its regular scheduled thing on Sunday night. And with regards to supporter packs, if we can make it work, we'll make it work for whatever account you have. So if you're ah, you're an Xbox player, a PC player, a PlayStation player, we can work with support with G to make sure that those supporter packs are sent to you on your whatever platform you're using. That's right. So that's where it is. Read it. Tweet us sick. What you wanna win will announce the jury in Episode eight, which is two more episodes ofTyler: waste. I'm gonna win. It's permanent. Win.Justin: Yeah, you're kicked out anyway, guys, Thanks so much for listening to Episode six of Forever Exiled A Path of Exile podcast. This has been a really good time. And I hope you guys all have a super safe New Year's Eve and a good New Year's Day following. After that, I am one of your host, Justin a K Tagz.Tyler: I'm Tyler. Wrecker of Days. Oh, was I supposed to finish? Okay, well, it added at something in, um, hang on. Okay, then. I'm Tyler. Wrecker of days. Be safe this holiday week. No, no, no.Justin: What are you talking? You know what, everyone.Tyler: No, no, no. What? I was going to say somethingJustin: about your name again. I'm just gonna cut it anyway. But give me No, don't say that part again. Just give me half a second before you start speaking, but don't make it so.Tyler: No, no, no, no. This isJustin: actually now gonna be our troll. That'd beTyler: awesome. No, I wanted people to be safe on New Year's Eve. Get stupid. And for some reason, people seemed Forget that at New Year's Eve. But anyway, trying to anyone better would you, um, we appreciate all the listen. Some thanks for your time. Have a happy New Year's. Eve was safely safe. You want todo sure record and I know I'm going to say it, but you have all these notes that are distracting me about my filters. All I want to talk aboutJustin: is what is what happens when I throw on our troll on you that you have to doTyler: what you have just playing as I'm still talking about how I'm gonna do a note. True. What? What way would you say?Justin: Listen, I think the intro every damn time you have do you do do it? Yeah, because otherwise, but this is what our ingenuityTyler: I'll do the next time I'll do Episode sevenJustin: you can't recognize or six in You started with five because the intro change in Episode five you started with Rokko, remember? Thanks.Tyler: No, I don't. Yes, it's the widow. I don't remember. Thanks. Yeah, thanks. Uh, well, um, all right, Well, what can I say? Thank you very much for the listens, everybody. We greatly appreciate it. And again, if you have any encouragement or criticisms for us, please let us know on Twitter or on Reddit after one of our posts and we'll see you on episode seven.Justin: Make sure to check out the show notes below. If you've got any questions or concerns, nobody has concerned. I don't care if they have concerns. Heather clarified. Give make sure to check outTyler: Larkin and put this all owed on the same day that you were ready. I was ready. You weren't ready.Justin: I'm not gonna cut any of this is gonna be the longest. Whatever. You just you build like a needy and I'm previously on yourself. I forgot I was loved. Make sure to check out the show notes. For more information about today's episode, you confined us online at www dot forever exiled dot com as well as on Twitter at forever exiled 82Don't forget to find us at www.foreverexiled.com and @ForeverExiled82 on Twitter

We finally made it to the Atlas! Look out white maps, here we come!Join the party! Check out our website for more episodes and be sure to follow us on Twitter.www.foreverexiled.comTwitter @ForeverExiled82Path of Exile WebsiteWrecker of Days Builds ListFull Transcript of Episode:Justin: Hey there. Welcome to Episode five of Forever Exile. The Path of Exile Podcast. I am one of your host, Justin A K Tags.Tyler: And I'm Tyler Wrecker of Days. Well, we made it Number five. Yeah. Good. Good. We're doing the best of episodes, Ari.Justin: Yeah, where we're at, like, take 41. RoughlyTyler: way. Our we've been We've been giggling trying to start this podcast for, like, the last hour.Justin: You know, actually, you saying that makes me want to just quickly jumped the gun a little bit because I noticed, if you're one of your notes was just how incredible your giggle is.Tyler: So I obviously listen to the podcast. Once you've finished editing them, Justin does everything. By the way, I just sit here and giggle and make fun of him. But after he's edited and what we get to listen to it, I like to listen to it to see what it, of course, sounds, likes weak and make it better make the next episode better and better and constructive criticism I have noticed now that I really ate my giggle. I sound so lame. Gable. It sounds totally fine in my head. I feel like a manly man when I giggle in my head. But my goodness, when I giggle when I hear from the outside, it's brutal.Justin: So that just shows how impressive it is that for four episodes I've been editing your giggle just to increase the highs. I'm just kidding. I should think this is going to be, like, really high.Tyler: No, this episode I'm gonna Ha, ha.Justin: That is hilarious. Yes, I am. Anyway, that made me think of it. You said giggle. It's your fault. Uh, all right, So tell me anyway, tell me about your build. You've been doing it. I mean, do refresher on your building where you're at right now. Let's let's hear it.Tyler: All right. Um, I finally had some time to gets maps, which was nice. I finished last few acts quite quickly. I like those last acts because there's very few side quest you need to do for extra passive points and finally got endgame. Tried to do it with my leveling gear, which wasn't special. It's not leveling gears, just whatever dropped. So I was pretty bad on resist. Tried to do. I know 5 to 10 maps with it, and, uh, just before the podcast started. I finally capped my resists, but damage is good and survivability would be good. I'm really liking it. I don't know what people are complaining about a lot of fun. Single target damage isn't great, but the game's a lot harder to so anyway,Justin: where you build when you say people complaining, Are you referring to just in general or specifically to your build?Tyler: Sorry specifically for that guide? I'm referring to the which building I do, and I'm doing my sion build. It's Ah, deadeye and inquisitor. It's elemental hit with attached to What's it called? It's still the list of support the ballistic totem support, Lester told him, Supports really weak. You basically need four totems, even though it only gives you three. You have to go find 1/4 told him just to make it worthwhile. But I'm quite liking it. And because you're constantly moving and laying the totems with elemental hit and with crit and with all the extra ailments that air happening freezing and shocking, it's I I really like it so far. I mean, I have a four, a blue four link, and, uh, I've been fine, so I'm excited to get a a nice five link.Justin: Your survivability, though, seems to be at least reasonable. So far, you're reallyTyler: very easy. It was really easy while levelling, of course, ramps up a bit once you get into the atlas. But, um, I had 19% fire resist, and I think 55 or 60 Ah, lightning resist. And there's a lot more chaos damage and oh, my goodness. I redid the graveyard. I did the new graveyard boss fight, and that's cool. I don't know if that was in our notes somewhere, so I don't want to jump ahead.Justin: I don't think I've actually done graveyard yet.Tyler: Oh, the chaos. I just love how viable chaos is. I feel like it's syndicate, but without needing the crazy nurse that syndicate needed for a month straight, it's There's so much more chaos, damage, um, the new I don't really want to spoil it, but for the podcast tried Well, for you, the graveyard boss battle that used to just be you'd go into that crypt, right? And then to be that I mean, it's changed a couple of times now. I think it's a change it again and Now it's kind of like an open crypt area where you fight one of the skeleton bosses that existed in campaign. But then, once you beat that one whole wave of enemies come. And then a second skeleton boss comes because I think you can do that. Different ones, Yes, and I love it. There's shocking to let crazy. They're throwing chaos, damage at you from from range. I really liked it and especially because it's what. But it dropped for me. I think it was my fifth map. I don't know if it's Tier 12 or three. I forget, but it was when you're not really set with your resists. That's a punishing boss battle, and I really liked it. But back to the build, I just finished capping my resists and survivability was pretty easy before, so it's gonna be a lot better now.Justin: Nice and damage with elemental hit and ballisticTyler: clearing is no problem. Single target damage requires some patients, Um, but not only for the impatient, I guess you could say, um, I don't find that for me. I'm used to a slower paced game, and I don't find it tedious by any means. umJustin: Well, you actually, because under a single target apartment, do you think you'll do anything to change single target? Like, do you have any plans for?Tyler: Yeah, right now I'm using a blue Oh, right. Four link. Yeah. I'm using a blue for link right now. So it all it does, it's giving me 7 18% attack speed and 24% elemental damage. So I knew the second I even even if I had a white five link or a nice yellow four link, I don't think it would be a problem at all.Justin: Nice. Yes. So, me, I am doing spectral throw, still sticking with it, and, uh, I'm into maps. I've gotten past all of the, you know, the levelling, all that good stuff. Ah, it's been decent. It's solar cell. Found for me is a whole new breed of playing this game. I'm just so used to, ah, hit endgame by some of the gear that I want to at least make the maps a little easier to clear. Make sure I've got ah, you know, the right resists. But the build that I'm just playing around with is working. Fine. Now that I've got my gem slots set up. I'm still also only running off of a four link chest, so that'll make a big difference once I can do that. And I'm swapping GMP for ah, slower projectile still, which I probably I probably will do through the whole thing anyway. So it's it's been not bad. It's a little a little slow, uh, had huge hiccups as I was leveling and I'm realizing I think I made that. We made the comment that we were chatting that weapons hold. My gosh, Did they ever make such a big difference? Like,Tyler: Oh, and I love it. I love it.Justin: Yeah, it's It's nice. It's just it's I feel different. It's weird that that's different. I mean, you've always needed to upgrade weapons, obviously toe to scale your damage, but I don't know if it's just spectral throw. I don't know if it's if there was a specific change that's made that different, but I have found that without that, that constant upgrade to weapons which, by the way, upgrading Klaus Sucks is brutal. To find Klaus that have reasonable roles, especially cousin went straight physical, it's really hard to find replacement clause Once I've got something that's rolled plus physical and plus percentage physical, I can't It's really, really hard to find something that will improve that.Tyler: Catch him Well, I mean, I know your pain. I'm still using my blue four links. So, um, but it's I just love. I think it has everything to do with just the changes that they made to defense in the how bosses they're scale. All the extra armor and chaos and elemental resists. And for everyone, I just I just love that update where they made them harder to kill, but they don't hit harder. I mean, some of the boss mechanics had changed dramatically, which makes them a lot harder to, But it just makes weapons that much more important. And I love it because for melee, they're much more dependent on weapons than any other type of, um, build. I would say, like if you're doing spells, you can get away with not needing a fantastic wander staff, right? Or don't whatever also you're using. But when you're doing spells, you don't need something epic. It's just great to have opinions. You don't need anything, but of course, it's just mid. Maxine if you want to get a convicting one with sweet rolls Malays desperate for a good melee weapon. And I love that right after they have a melee league, they come out, they buff stuff to make melee weapons Much more important, I think it's really cool. I love how they did it.Justin: It is, Yeah, I think if I had maybe thought a little differently into ah, maybe it may be a different skill, or I don't know if I could have incorporated different types of weapons, but I just I feel like for a solo cell found I made it harder than I needed to because I've just I've struggled to roll clause that are good to use,Tyler: are you? Claw OnlyJustin: while I'm spect into a lot of the claw nodes just for the the engine for the crit. ButTyler: that's that's one of those things than that, I guess you kind of cornered yourself into then.Justin: Yeah, so we'll see. I mean, I'm now, uh, into maps. I've gotten it. Did the atlas. I mean, maze will just jump a little bit too. That is kind of cool. I've again, I'm not super far into it of ah, unlocked out Zana. So she's back. I've had these weird encounters with the the new the new bosses, like have just spawned And I can remember the name of the one that I've seen, but he kind of just spawned in, yelled at me and then took off and it just got the notification to keep following him. And I'mTyler: like, Yeah, I had that and I couldn't see what was happening. The map was still busy and I heard some dialogue. I didn't really know what it was, and yeah, that's to read it at the same time.Justin: So I'm I've noticed that as I've done more maps in that quadrant, um, he's popped up a few times. I haven't gotten much further into how that whole system works, but what I will say is, on top of the hole, okay? Trying to figure out weapons as I'm going along it further to what you were talking about with your build. My God resists so resist to me has always they've always been king. You get to endgame, you get resists. You just have to. I have never felt Maur than this league like yes, you Absolutely have to capture resists. It is especially getting into these these new bosses. Yeah, I don't know if he just happens to be lightning based or why everything is lightning. But after he popped up the bosses, or just like random rare Tze and just mobs would all of a sudden spawned with additional lightning damage, they would put these things on the ground. They were shooting. It was killing me so quickly and I think was in 40 48% or so, which normally obviously that's not great. But normally in a tear to map, I wouldn't be Oh, you know, I really need to be in 75. I just be working to get gear. And as I captured that cap it, I had no choice but to actually start adjusting my gear and what it made a huge difference, which I'm not had a lead like that before. And I started thinking because the first it pissed me off first thing I was like Oh my God, so tired of dying. And then, as I started to, you know, just the gear and especially with SSF, it makes it a little bit harder. But the the ability to now have to actually plan around capping my resists walk, maintaining life and damage. It's actually made it kind of fun. Yeah, it really has.Tyler: Yeah, I'm really a one thing. I totally agree with you. I completely agree with you. And one thing that I think I already mentioned it. But just in case I didn't turn now, only thought it. It used to be that you could just ignore chaos. Resist for so many of your bills until syndicate came along, you could ignore your your chaos resistant. You could just do your three elements. Now I feel with all the different roles they've done, they've added a lot of chaos, damage to some big, big boss battles and a lot of the metamorphose stuff. Specifically, it's almost like you can't get away. You It's always gonna have some sort of chaos. A we it's really made it so that you need all four. Captain. Oh, I used to just do the three. I'm sure many died. Many did. But I'm really finding the value and crafting some of those chaos rules just to at least get to the baseline of 0%. I think I saw this in a lot of chaos. Damage?Justin: Yeah, I have to. I don't know if I found it as, um it's definitely beneficial. I'm not at minus 60. I think I'm at 35 or something. So it's not. It's not zero, but it's definitely better than nothing but it to me. He was not as bad as the I don't know Lightning. I couldn't believe the difference from 48 to 75 obviously that's always gonna be a huge difference. It's just never been a huge difference. A tear to Oh, yeah, you know what I mean? Like, I've always felt like Okay, I'm getting into, like, six. You're seven. You know, it's time to actually start really paying attention to everything. Yeah, this is like it's cool. It's really cool, because that one of the complaints I've had in the past is just end Game now had become stale, so I think it's aTyler: sexy independence all the way through. Maybe we won't think that in the fifth league of this end game, butJustin: yeah, I don't know. I mean, I don't know enough about how the endgame all works yet, so it's kind of hard to say, but I am enjoying The metamorphose stuff is sometimes enjoyable. I've started to get some of the boss ones the ones that you actually collect. I haven't Not enough to actually do much with them. Ah, some of them have been reasonable. But even still, some of them are very, very difficult, Which is good. I don't mind. I don't mind not being able to kill a boss like a meta morph boss. Yet if I made it too strong and I'm like, Oh, God, this I just can't do it. Yeah, it sucks for me. I gotta learn to the next one.Tyler: I've heard a lot of people. Well, whether it's within my guides air on Reddit complained that it's too difficult And then there's some people of the mentality that a lake just turn. Just turn the difficulty down like you're not forced to do the hardest one. And if your build can't do it, don't do it on. And then there's other people that think. I've heard the complaints that they should be able to do the hardest ones, and I don't like that I like the you know, it should be terrifying to do the hardest. Have you got all the body parts in the map? It should be terrifying. You should expect it to be a long time or you should I don't know. You know what I mean? Totally beat Easy for you shouldn't expect to do it with mediocre everything.Justin: Yeah, I totally agree to me. It goes back to bay two days and like the early release days where there were some builds just could not do it, you just couldn't. And it wasn't It wasn't something broken in the game. It was something you did just didn't work. And you either adjusted or I mean, then it was start over. But yeah, yeah, I don't know. I've been I've been relatively pleased so far. I mean, I'm pretty early into the tears of the palace, but I found the difficulty to be decent. Uh, I mean, for me, for path of Exile, it's rewarding enough. Antemortem is adding the ability to get a lot of cool stuff that you couldn't get in other ways before you had to do specific league things to do it. So that's kind of fun.Tyler: Yeah, it is. It's It's really cool. I think they've done a very good job. I know that there's glitches for people that are a lot farther into endgame. Unlike us, we're still in our white maps. But, um, I think in terms of stability, this was really, really good. I just, um I forget where this isn't a list. So cut me off. If I'm too far ahead of myself. I just really wish that what they did was introduce this next league. But I love the new endgame, and I'm really excited about it. But to introduce a brand new endgame and then go on a skeleton crew for Christmas, it doesn't make sense to me.Justin: Yeah, but I think that's also for you. Somewhat related to other things. Not just specifically the league. The big leaguesTyler: challenges, but they're they're running into they. Some of the stuff that I'm watching this one is a little bit farther down, but the guy that I watch relax r o l a X on mixer. His issues are very different than mine. I'm waiting for cause I play standard. I'm waiting for the map tab to get fixed, but that's not gonna happen till after Christmas, because they have one person that works on the map tapping there on vacation. So but roll axes. His issue is he's getting to engage with every single character that he makes. He's already on. His fourth character is crushing Endgame, and his issue is that there's a glitch with Final Boss. And I've seen lots of stuff in the patch notes about the final Boss is and how they're glitches and they're not dropping this or they're not. You know, this, that another thing and he can'tJustin: What's the alternative? I mean, you're suggesting that they push of a game changing league to a ah, further release so that they don't have it come over Christmas,Tyler: right? I don't think any time you're gonna have a skeleton crew for two weeks, even if it's just one week, I really especially because it's going to be what, a three week point of the league right? Like this came out December 9. I think it was to have Christmas two and 1/2 3 weeks later, after you've completely revamped the entire endgame, I don't know.Justin: Yeah, I don't know what to me. It's hard, though, because if they come up with a league that barely has any changes just because they're gonna have a skeleton crew. That league ends up being garbage. It's people. People may not play it. I mean, the thing is, if they go, if they go skeleton crew, Firth, whatever it is, 2 to 3. I don't even think it's three weeks, two weeks, three weeks. Someone like that. Two weeks to, um, that's better to me than three months of, Ah garbage league.Tyler: Well, but imagine Metamor for the old Atlas. To me,Justin: that's fantastic. Yeah, I don't know. I don't knowTyler: how everything Woods with how it all works, right, Like, it's been a long time since I've worked in the video game industry, and when I did, I wasn't at the top of the food chain making the decisions with all the decisions that the higher ups need to make. But it's just for me. It's every Christmas. I really don't get to play until the new year, when the league comes out and then it's gonna be the Christmas League, as I call it as a standard player. I don't get to play until January, so it kind of sucks. ButJustin: I don't see the alternative to that, though, and I think that I mean, I I can see where you're talking about in the fact that it's ah ah, huge game changing league and it comes out right before they. I don't know how often else in the year they even have skeleton crews. I imagine it's not very often, but ah, I would rather I would rather it affect the I mean, people may really, really be angry about the fact that I say it or that they may disagree with me in some sense. But it's affecting the people who have a lot of time and have power rushed to end game, which is awesome, like That's cool that they have done it. But I imagine that that portion of the player base is small compared to the players who are still working their way up through be Atlas and you're never going to make it perfect. Old big release almost ever has been Yeah, so there's going to be something that goes wrong to me. At least there's nothing game breaking and even the ones I've read night for league players and but I don't care about standard, but I mean, even on center,Tyler: You're in the minority there.Justin: No, I'm definitely. I definitely know for sure. Not on that. Most of them. I might be in the minority that when I'm definitely not. But even your issue, it's still very specific, too. A mechanic not working. Not all mechanics not working now. Granted, it's a pretty I read that they, like, literally turned it off, right, Like they just turned off the convert button. I thought I heard. Yeah, yeah,Tyler: yeah, they did. It turned off, and it's true. I could play it. I could spend 15 bucks and get a new map stash tab.Justin: No, I don't think you should. And I agree, like frustration that comes from that. But I don't think you'll ever have a league release that's going to be perfect off the bat, even 2 to 3 weeks, and hopefully it's as close as possible. But I read the complaints. I've read the comments that they've made. They're not. It works. There's just some stuff. That's your rape. It's kind of frustrating for such is, but it's not broken. I would rather like I said, I would rather have maybe 2 to 3 weeks of Okay, this is stupid. I'm frustrated. I'm annoyed, and then they're coming back, and they're gonna fix it. Uh, and they still have staff working. It's not like a game. Breaking bugs is just going to go on because they want to enjoy Christmas. God forbid. But yet, uh, if if that means that, okay, I gotta wait 2 to 3 weeks for them to fix something that is really just irritating me versus having to deal with three months of a league that I found boring because they wanted to make sure not to get people upset. I feel like that's maybe worse. Yeah, I don't know, but I mean, yeah, yeah. I don't know. I don't mind it, but I'm not there, so it's not affecting me.Tyler: Yeah, way need to. I need to be more familiar with the endgame bugs that are happening to. But you've almost converted me almost. You may have let them have Christmas tie. Just let them have Christmas am. I am. But have Christmas with the old atlas, all right? Just bored again. So remember last episode we're talking about holy and showing up. I was all mystified. I thought it was fantastic that when you click on a crafting recipe, yeah, she just appears Yes, you know, she'd smoke bombs like a ninja turtle on, comes in and says her little piece and then goes away. I thought that was a really cool little thing. Um, so I hear you've been a little disappointed with the frequency of it. Now,Justin: is it just our last time that we talked about with that when this you first brought this up? Yeah, I think it was just last episode. Yes, So it was. It must have been, cause that's when I finally got some free time to play and every freaking recipe I would zoom in my damn camera, click it. And there were times I think I was even streaming at one point so you could watch, and I clicked it, and I I message you and said you're you're freaking liar. She didn't jump up and you said, Oh, it's because you were standing right in front of it. I was like, Oh, okay, maybe it wasTyler: always your fault.Justin: Now I will just say I was about to go into it. I was in a trial when I got that one. So I went to the next one and it actually kind of irritated me a little bit because the next one I found was within just the regular story of the game. So I moved off to the side, clicked it, and sure enough, she popped up. I was like, God damn it, Tyler was right. Yeah, And she did, like, smokes in. And she says, Ah, I think she said the same line every time. Something about this is very interesting. And then she smoke clouds out. But it's only the more I did it, the more I was watching it. She she doesn't so nothing related to a lab. Nothing related to trials will ever show up. Nothing related to delve will ever show up. And once you beat the game, that's it. She's done. She doesn't show up in maps. WhyTyler: do itjust campaign? I was really surprised. That's dumb. Yeah, whyJustin: I don't understand is that there's no Maybe somebody knows some weirdo lower to the game that somehow stopped actin that she couldn't help you with the recipesTyler: anymore. Well, maybe maybe they'll add it more if it's a new thing that we just have If it's new right and we didn't miss it before, maybe it's just they're adding it in and then they'll be able to add it to more. As, uh, maybe you just would have added, you know, to my previous complaint about having a new atlas. Maybe it just would've added more possible glitches when they were going on. No, no. HowJustin: hard could it have been? Toe added toe labs to delve, too. Maps everywhere.Tyler: Every little thing you add. Construe something elseJustin: does nothing. She's she literally does. She is. She's not even an actual like thing that interferes with you. You can walk right through her. She does nothing. It's like she's not there. It's dumb. Just put it into all of them. I irritated me more so than anything that you told me about it, because I remember it took me. It took me so much longer to get through some of the acts because I would run into them and be like, Okay, maybe, Maybe if I stand a little bit over here. No. Yeah. She doesn't show up in those places through.Tyler: Well, I hate you more than you hate me for Helena, Because you're playing solo Cell found this time for the first time in forever. And you couldn't give me the ridiculous Val City way point.Justin: You know it was you this times you I found it almost right away.Tyler: Oh, I don't even want to hear your solo. No. Found luck with a locked. Why did he lock? Hold your hand and show, YouJustin: know, but But something pointed the way I could tell. I could sense it. It was those fireflies they were leading.Tyler: Yeah, fireflies that don't stack in your inventory. Um,Justin: crabby old man. Yeah, I found I found that when I found thanks for not beingTyler: able to give you $2 city waypoint. I appreciate it.Justin: You have to work for things. That's how you enjoy the gameTyler: Can. The Bell City is really enjoyable.Justin: It's annoying because it not only is it probably one of the most frustrating spots to find it for, but then also, the next level that you load into is the freaking longest set of map or area. I think in the whole game that hope Rose is to get down to the spider. Oh, my God, It's exhausting. it's worse than Vow. Pyramid Way Worse, I don't know why. Maybe it's God's going down instead of up.Tyler: Well, it's twice as long. Yeah, well, Pyramid, I think it's three levels and then you're actually at the top. Whereas when you're going down to the spider, it's three levels and then you're just another second section, and then it's another three levels. If I'm correct, it's I don't mind that part, though. That one's relatively easy to navigate. And there's not a lot of wrong turns, not a fan. I don't mind the maps that get me, Um, but that's just because of my concussion. Symptoms and stuff are the maps with trees and the trees that go in front of the screen. Um, what would be one deal? I don't know howJustin: Jungle is brutal. I actually noticed that just today I was thinking to myself, Okay, we're talking about that whole technology of the stuff is cutting. You go through jungle. The trees do not fade it all, they say, right up in your face through the hole. I was like, Why would they not have these ones fade out? I don't know if it's just because it's older, and maybe it's more difficult for them to do that. But it is really weird to me that jungle, the jungle map Jungle Valley. The maps do not fade or sorry, the trees don't fade. Yeah, it's kind of weird.Tyler: Yeah. And you, old atlas. I would never, ever shaped the ones that had those tall trees that will go in front of the camera. It was just too too nauseated for me.Justin: Would it change it if if it had that effect, where they they weren't really? I mean, that kind of see through,Tyler: um Well, there's that. What was it? Is it Lava lake map that had, um I don't know if they're the same. A CZ they used to be. But the lab a lake when they had caught Eva was a tear 14 or 15 last week. That had some trees. Cem, Cem. Nice apple trees. ErJustin: over there. Just little ones rightTyler: there. Well, they were. They were big, They didn't go all the way up across the screen, and it would have that technology where it would fade so you could see yourself on the other side. That still gets me a little bit, but it's nowhere near as bad as something that's crossing my eyes really fast. Like car driving through and, you know, shaded woods Interest. Bang, bang, bang. Just shade hitting. You left, right and center.Justin: Yeah, it's funny. I just I literally just today was doing Jungle Valley and thought of that. Come on. And then I did. I think it was right after we finished Episode four. Maybe that next day I finally got to play, and I'm I'm running through an area goingTyler: the hell areJustin: these things popping up? My screen is unlike running through killing stuff. And yeah, that's the monster parts picking up. Yeah. Is that I'm sure people listening to it Or like what a whiny baby like it's alreadyTyler: faced. I'm sorry. Fix happen hour later, but what do you think of it?Justin: Uh, I I do like it. Obviously, I actually this is just me being a turd. I'm not a big fan of the way it shows up, because it and maybe we'll just take a bit of getting used to playing more to get used to it. But it throws me off for some reason, a little bit And maybe it's just cause I'm not playing a very fast build. I'm not moving super quickly through the map or through the zone. There's something about the way it pops up that just throws me off from looking at what the drops are to the interest at part going up. But I I love it. I absolutely love the fact that I don't care what it does. I don't care what flash my whole screen. The fact that it I don't have to be. Oh, I don't have to go and pick them all up is so much better. Yeah. You like it?Tyler: I like the animation. Yeah, I like it. I don't get distracted with it. I don't get it mixed up with other possible drops. I really like it. And the thing that I I don't know if this was how it used to be, because you and I have progressed slowly, but whether it was added new or not, I love that when you're about to go through a portal or a door. Um, what's his name shows up.Justin: Oh, yeah, kind of warns you.Tyler: Yeah, but I like that, you know, because I'm going to go through and I'm gonna clear the map. How I normally cleared I don't go out of my way for any lead content if it's going to be, You know, if if there's two monsters left and I'm missing one body part, I'm not going for it. So it's nice when I'm vote to go into this or I'm gonna portal. Oh, that he shows up. He's like a Okay, let's use up your pieces. Yeah, I like it. I think it was a very it was a gamer's choice, You know what I mean? Whoever came up with that idea, it was it was the gamer in them that came up with that. That was really convenient.Justin: Yeah, I think it is. Good, cause I would probably forget Maur often than not if if he didn't do that, and I'd probably load the next map and be like, damn it, I forgot to use up those parts. So that's at least good. Now, did you Did you get Ah, Did you get your Christmas gift from G, which I feel like you should take away from you? I feel like people who are complaining about them going to skeleton staff don't deserveTyler: a gift. I don't maybe. Oh, everything. Oh, they deserve a wicked Christmas. Well, old Atlas.Justin: So what you're saying, though, is the people that stay working what I'm saying? That'sTyler: qu'est er of words. No. Um, no, no, no, no. Not at all. Not at all.Justin: Did you get you get from them there? It was one of the boxes. Right.Tyler: Okay, well, you got I do not. What? But it was white.Justin: So I on on that same topic, because I I did get, um, a gift. I got the white, uh, missed, I think for the for your base, The white It's like, OK, but I also I decided I was going to do the grand sanctum pack because I really like the wings. And I like the outfit. That was the thing is the $60 pack. I'm still I'm still boycotting. Currently, there their core packs. I just Maybe I might really I might buy this the snake one just because it's, you know, it's it is a little bit unique, but I just can't I I was like, Well, I don't see myself going this time for there's no shirt. So why spend 240 bucks? But ah, it So I bought the couple of the boxes. I have 55 versions of God. What is it? The blink. Ah, it's one of the skills that they went there. No, no, no, it's Ah, it's not whirling blades. It's something Blade. What is it called, anyway? It's I have five of them. I hate that. That's the one thing that drives me crazy. You know, all I want is a damn portal. I think I've opened maybe 20 boxes, so not like a ton, but 25% of them have been the same thing killing me, G.Tyler: But I got to say, normally I'm I'm portals, is what it kind of revolves around for me. You know, you need to have a nice portal that matches the set. And because it's so much bigger and brighter, that color stands out to the others that you can get away with footprints that don't aren't the exact shade of white or green that you're looking for to match your set. You know what I mean? Because it's much farther away and it phase and it's busy, but portal portals really stand out there there the whole time. You stand next time for a while. The grand sanctum support pack is so nice that I'm gonna get it, even though I don't like at a normal that could match it.Justin: Well, give me a portal that you have because there's portals that mattersTyler: and that really, I don't think so. Well, sometimes it's also it's not just the color. It's also the action that the portal does, or the colors and how it goes. You know what I mean? AndJustin: wings air really cool with it, though.Tyler: I love it. I love it. I'm, uh I'll be getting it as soon as we're done.Justin: I'm actually using some of the white armor that I got from the boxes with the grand sanctum, but, uh, yeah, I I don't remember. I do have two of the white floaty mists. Uh, you can put in your base. I also I don't think you've seen it yet, but I have I did get that new base, butTyler: so did you.Justin: Yeah, the completely I did it mostly because I knew it would drive Ethan crazy. And so I loaded it up. I put it in there with absolutely nothing. And I just spaced the characters out, and I When he walked by my office, I was like, Look, check out how awesome this is. And he was upset right away. And I told him it's going to stay like that All league. I'm not gonna put anything down. If anything, I might put like a fire pit for some random reason. Like one fire pit.Tyler: Well, it's cold in the stars. Yep. It's gonna look awesome. So you can sit cross leggedJustin: and put all of my petsTyler: so they can float around. And don't forget you're missed.Justin: Oh, yeah. I should put down that white mist. I'm gonna put it in a corner just so that when people visit, I'd be like, Hey, did you see there's twoTyler: also you. I'll even give you a discount. But you've got to go in the mist.Justin: There's two of them up there, but I love that they give those little boxes. I think it's fun.Tyler: Yeah, they're very generous company. And every time I realized that we've complained about something in the game that I don't like or you don't like, I feel really bad. I don'tJustin: feel bad, and I think it's good. It's I don't think we're being fixed. It's no, I get it. ITyler: get. It's constructive. But I still when I really when I remember that it's free and everything's free. I feel like a prick.Justin: Well, I mean, you're a prick, but it doesn't mean that they're doingTyler: anything wrong. I'm not the one that went solo. Cell found. You're a prick.Justin: Yeah, but you also said that they don't deserve a merry Christmas.Tyler: No, I said enjoy your merry Christmas with the old Atlas.Justin: I think I think it isTyler: you not being able to give me the Val City waypoint is way worse than anything anyone else has ever done toJustin: me. I think that merry Christmas box makes up for the bugs. So two people complaining about the bugs. At least you got a box,Tyler: right? And he didn't play peewee a Christmas. You're not a real fan. Anyway. It's true, right, Britta?Justin: At least to log in. Get your freaking box.Tyler: You did have to be in game to get it. Well, you couldn't click on it on the website.Justin: Yeah, but you didn't have to be on that day.Tyler: I remember.Justin: I got mine today, I think because I didn't go on you saidTyler: you were on yesterday. Yeah. Yesterday I was able to finish my just for the box. No, no, I was able to finish an actor to yesterday. I think it was yesterday that I got two maps. Who? I think the boxes logging in until January 6.Justin: Oh, yes. I didn't think it was just the single day that that would be a jerk. Move. Geez, like,Tyler: Well, we're a little Bell City. Wait points a jerk. MoveJustin: How? We're at home enjoying our Christmas. If you don't log into the video game on that day, you don't get it. Uh,Tyler: enjoy your family, Bond.Justin: Yeah, I don't think anything we've said is mean spirited. And yeah, I think we're fair. We're now We're nice people in general, right?Tyler: Well, one of us, one of me. That's true. Yeah.Justin: So that's why did I look through the post that they made because they had put up a post about like, uh, some of the known issues that they were going to deal with, But I didTyler: nothing in there really,Justin: like, stood out to me like Oh my gosh, I can't play this. I will be honest. There is one that says the convert maps button in the map stash tab has been temporarily disabled as there were problems converting to the new layout. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I laughed so hard when I read that. Why fly? What? You've just popped into my head instantly. I don't know why you just made me laugh. I was like, Oh, but they're listening. Listen,Tyler: every time the game updates whether waiting for you and I hate how long steam takes to frickin update a 30 makeup date. But anyway, when I'm I mean, it gives me 10 hours. Thank you, Steam for being able to check the patch notes every time I'm just control f that I see my console game updating him like, Oh, well, maybe because they group their patches together for Consul cause they don't promote us frequently. I don't know how it works in the console back end, but that's really do. And so then I'm like, Oh, sweet, Maybe maybe a new one came out for PC today, and then I control control F on the patch notes for Xbox. You mad? I'm excited. It'll happenJustin: yet to me. When I read through this stuff there was, I think only one that maybe kind of popped out to me is like, Okay, this is actually something they need to work on. And it was releasing legion generals during legion encounters can cause a client crash. I think something that can actually crashed the game, that that's a bit of a problem. And that mostly just cause we both dealt with leagues where I mean you, especially where that was an issue. So I can I can, you know, I can see that a little bit. But when I look at their posts that they put out and this is days before Christmas, I think this one popped up. I don't rember who posted it. Uh, it still impresses me like they're legitimately looking into stuff. They know stuff there, and they're gonna fix it. And the stuff that I was reading was not game breaking. Besides, the fact that the client could crash that that to me is a bit of a big deal. I had an issue with one of the valves side areas. Who cares? It was not a big deal. It took into when I when I exited, it didn't bring me back. So where I had entered into the map, I actually thought it was cool. Yeah, I don't know. The rest of the stuff wasTyler: even something like Metamor. Fosse's not being able to be frozen were used to Boss is not be able to be frozen. It was just chill, right, Right. So I, you know, even with something that was frozen dependent, you're getting a very good chill on them, especially because it was buff. So that's not even a big problem either.Justin: Nothing stood out to me where on and again, that could have been because there have been stuff fixed that were more game breaking that I just never encounter because I hadn't gotten up there. But I didn't really stand out to Mia's thes terrible things.Tyler: Yeah, I can see the There's a There's an issue where the awakened cast on Krit um, is creating cooled elms where when there shouldn't be any, I could see that being a big issue for builds. But at the same time, you don't need the awakened jewel to have a successful build. SoJustin: you're already having a problem with an awakened version of a skill? Boo hoo. I don't feel bad for you. Even a tiny bit. A tiny bit. Put the cast on. CreatedTyler: for not to drop.Justin: Sure, I'm thrilled. If it didn't work on the lake first week of a league lunch, I wouldn't be like you wreckedTyler: my bill. No, you haven't. Go put the normalJustin: one in the one you used all the way up until you found that one. Yeah. Yeah, I saw. I don'tTyler: know if anybody's actually complaining about it, but we did see it on the bug report,Justin: right? I imagine it's probably because somebody complained about it. Ah, but yeah, I just It made me laugh. Yeah, there were. There were some really fun, uh, things that I saw in in red It actually in the last couple of days that made me laugh or not laugh with smile there. Only because I get so jealous I still haven't seen exults this league. Nothing cool has dropped yet besides garbage unique ce which is still fine. But the critic I that posted he did ah ah Contains a valuable gym. He got to You got enlightened and empower both level force. They dropped as a light on level four. Empower little for. And there was other stuff too, but oh, my gosh. I was like, What? The hacky. There was a screenshot of it, and I'm thinking in solar cell found I would leave in a heartbeat. I like buying stuff through a felon. I'm getting stuff, but it was crazy. And then, uh Okay, So there. Did you see? I don't know how often you check credit, but there was a helmet that somebody posted that was crafted. This was It was it was with that the ah, the awaken, her orb. So where you combined the two things? Now I feel like this is a lot because this helmet just Oh, man. Perfect. It's a meat. Well, yeah, it used to be. I mean, it sucks now because zombies are terrible, but Okay, I'm just gonna read through it.Tyler: I don't think they're terrible, ByJustin: the way, we're talking about a bone helmet. Yeah, Minion steal. 20%. Increased is the, uh,Tyler: got Ah. So a max. ImplicitJustin: max. Implicit of minions deal. 20% crease damage plus three toe level of soccer Did Minion Gems socket of gems. Air supported by level 18 million. Life soccer. The gems air supported by level, 18 million damage. Now, if it stopped here, you've already done really, really well. Like, really, really? Well, like last season. Last league. Oh, my God. You could have bought 20 years. It everybody wanted every freaking minion thing. Now, yeah, we're gonna continue on. Minions have 19% increase Max life minions deal 20%. Increased damage, 5% reduced manner. Reserved glow. And he had the intent on it for flesh offering. Granting an additional 21% increase. Attack speed for flesh. And then he had craft. That was insane. Lightning resist.Tyler: But nuts it is. Of course, it's incubating something just to make it even more exciting.Justin: I it just seemed fake when I read it. Yeah, I was like, Oh, my God. I would like last league. I would have liked just two of those options to force their six good things on there.Tyler: I can't tell you how much currency I've spent on console trying to get a plus three to the level of socket 1,000,000 Jim's. I still don't have it. I am trying everything. The craft. I'm going crazy. I make I I can't do it. I can't do it. And then here's this year's this.Justin: Yeah, it's just I don't know what he was crafting. Four. I did Rhea little bit about the threat, and the guy who actually crafted it kind of came on. It was like, I don't know what to do with this, which made me laugh because I would be the same way. I would have been really upset that I didn't have it last league because, I mean, it's awaken. Or that's new, though, isn't it? I mean, you couldn't have really done it, but still,Tyler: no, but it doesn't have to. I mean, I know you're against how zombies were were cut down a bit, this league, but that's not so. I'll be specific by any means. No, I know. But so respect all Dominion buffs from last later still applicable. That thing's crazy but still insane. It's still absurd. That's something like, even if you had a mirror, you would just put that somehow on display just so that you could look at it sometimes,Justin: yeah, It's crazy. I couldn't believe it when I was reading through it. So cool. Yeah, I wanted to just give a quick show boat. We've gotten some pretty cool feedback from people that have been listening and people that have given us some advice and some constructive criticism. You know, the lovely kind, But I want to just give a shout out to all those people and, ah, we don't have a list of everyone, but we're going to start making a list because it's it's a really big deal to us. It really helps us figure out what we should do better for the next ones. And let us know that people enjoy the time that we share together, you know?Tyler: Yeah. No, it's It's been really cool. It's been a lot of fun. We're only five episodes in, but every episode has been listened to more than the previous one, and it's ah, it's exciting to see how it goes, but it's ah oh, we just want to say a big thank you to people that do find this enjoyable, and we definitely would value your feedback for sure. So I know we said at the end of every episode. But just to emphasize, if you tweet us at forever exiled 82. Just positive feedback, negative feedback. Whatever it is, we do want to make this a really good podcast for you and something that lots of path of exile players would really enjoy it here. So let us know what you think. We thank you very much for listening to all the episodes that you already have.Justin: If it's mean we'll start a Twitter war straight up. That's right. Fight to the death of Twitter. All right, cool. Well, listen, Thanks for everybody listening. This, uh, this has been a lot of fun. This was Episode five of Forever Exile. The Path of Exile Podcast. I am one of your host tags, A k a JustinTyler: A key. I'm Tyler, also known as Wrecker of Days......ThanksJustin:  Check out the show Notes below. To find more information on today's episode, you can find us online at www dot forever exiled dot com as well as on Twitter at forever exiled 82

Everyone knows them. Everyone loves them. Final Fantasy 6 & 7 each hold a dear place in many gamer hearts. This episode we examine what makes them so different, yet so similar. Episode Transcript: The below is a machine based transcription of this episode. Sorta like Skynet if it was 2 years old, and wanted a cookie. Take it with a grain of salt.Palsh 0:00 Tara or Tifa Eris or Eric Celeste or sell us today on Press B to Cancel. Mm hmm.Palsh 0:14 Oh wait, I don't know how our actual song goes because IJake 0:18 already have a dream crowdJake 0:19 right now.Palsh 0:43 So guys, welcome. I am post one and nine. Today we are going to talk about Final Fantasy six and Final Fantasy seven. With me I have the council as I like to call them and I'm trying to make it stick so hopefully it'll stick. I haveJake 1:03 Sic Jake Hey, glad to be here. We havePalsh 1:03 wereWulff Hay ho. And we have guy prime.GP 1:06 I think I have to go with Rosa, Final Fantasy four. Thank you. Deal. Okay,Palsh 1:11 so yeah, let's just switch that skill straight into Final Fantasy four instead. Let's talk about some Final Fantasy six and Final Fantasy seven day that I think we're all for the most part Final Fantasy fans in here in the council. Anybody want to argue against that? Or state against that?GP 1:31 And hold it against you? Hi.Wulff 1:33 Okay. I am but depends on the game. Yeah, that's fair. SoPalsh 1:38 let's just try to talk a little objectively between the differences between six and seven. There's been a lot of, you know, debate on what is the greatest Final Fantasy game and seven of course is at the top of most people's lists. For me, it's not my just for argument's sake, mine personal Favorite is for but I think the best game is six. Haven't you? GP?GP 2:06 I'm with you Final Fantasy for actually my favorites. I Oh, yes I think I do have to give a bit of an edge to Final Fantasy six over sevenPalsh 2:17 edges in for about that six.GP 2:20 Oh god that was good. Well done okayPalsh 2:22 about JakeJake 2:25 you know like I've been as a kid I used to love the Final Fantasy games and I like to say that I still like them. But I tried playing seven recently and I tried playing for recently and I hit a wall on for why just just so dissatisfied with it. So I don't know if I'm still a fan of the series anymore.Palsh 2:44 That's fair. I mean, I've I went through seven and I was kind of a little bit of a grind for me, but I rushed through so I'm you know, it could have been a whole lot worse when you wereWulff 2:57 four is my favorite out of theWulff 3:00 franchise, but I know it's not objectively the best. And from the ones I've played, I gotta give that one to six over seven for sure.Palsh 3:08 So I think we're pretty much on par with it here. Jake's kind of got the same feelings as me here for seven. But in my research now over the last couple of weeks, just trying to prepare for this podcast episode here, I kind of got a lot more respect for the things that seven is done. I mean, I had a lot of respect, but there's, it's kind of cemented now. So six is a lot of stuff. There's so many things about it that I can talk about for days and days. It's like it says, not my favorite, but it might as well be my favorite because there's so much great about it. Seven i think is great for different reasons. It became what made role playing games in North America, like socially acceptable. They added things into it that made a role playing games just not you know, turn based combat and nothing else. There was cool like bed and MB badass fmvs there was many games, you know, there's different systems and stuff that you could customize more and it was a little bit less glitchy then, you know, Final Fantasy six, at least as we saw s3 in North America was one of your earliest memories of either six or seven. I just want to see which ones pop out more. So what would you rather talk about really quickly? GP?GP 4:27 Okay, okay, I'm going to talk about seven. Because I want to embarrass myself with a quick story. I got I got the game and my PlayStation one for Christmas 1997. I started off, did not know that I needed to have a memory card. So that was fun. We figured that out eventually. Fast forward. I'm addicted as I made that mistake to Final Fantasy seven. I get to the temple of the ancients. I don't realize that the clock. You have to use it as a bridge. So I'm trying every companyGP 5:00 nation of every fucking time and then going back through the rest of the temple trying to see if anything has changed, spent 65 hours alone in that temple and wreck the rest of the game as soon as I got out.Palsh 5:15 Are you? Are you trolling with us again? That was ThatGP 5:19 story is 100% true. The second time I played it, I went back and got all the materials, but by the time I got out, I'm like, fuck it. I just want to beat the game. But 65 hours in the temple of the ancients. Even today when I go back and replay it, I have to mute it because I cannot hear that music anymore. Yeah.Palsh 5:40 Ouch. Well, dedication. I appreciate that. wereWulff. How about you? Which one stands out to you right now?Wulff 5:47 I'm six. It's It's gotta be that opera.Palsh 5:51 Oh, yeah. That's, I'm not gonna argue with that.Wulff 5:55 If there's a standout moment in either of those games, it's the opera.Palsh 6:00 You don't even need to talk about earlier because it's just like one of those. Like,GP 6:05 I'm not going to be rude here because you guys just let me tell my story but not not the KefkaWulff 6:09 battle that's not what stood out. Know you the first time you're going through that game, especially back then, you know when Yeah. And and now when you're playing through it when you understand the limitations of the hardware at the time, the fact that they still managed to make an opera segment that actually felt kind of like it was like an actual opera that you're just watching in 16 bit. That is impressive as hell to me. Yeah. And the fact that all the lyrics fit with the, the sound and tempo of the music. Okay, yeah, it did such a good job and, you know, a little, I don't know, 1213 year old me I got actual chills when I was watching. I was like, This is awesome. Like, I totally nerd it out.Palsh 6:56 I never realized until doing my research either thatPalsh 7:00 It's a metaphor for what's going on in the world too. I was like, oh, wow, so that kind of blew my mind. Yeah, at 35 years old.Palsh 7:10 So, Jake, how about you?Jake 7:13 Yeah, I mean, for me it was also found 96 I think I mean, I own the first game is one the first. Probably the first JRPG I played as a kid was the first Final Fantasy, and I borrow the second for my friend all the damn time. So when the third was coming out, I saved my pennies and I wanted to get it. But that car was expensive and that's my most vivid memory of that game.Jake 7:35 Well, okay, so in Canada, I don'tPalsh 7:37 have enough pennies.Jake 7:38 Amen. Canadian poor, but they're up here we had a store called consumers distributing which is an interesting store. And the way it works, you walked in it was like a like a warehouse type store and a small front area and he filled little index card with the number of the item you want. So I went in there as a kid, and then you know, put the number four Final Fantasy three in the on the paper and I hand it to him.Jake 8:00 earrings it up $90. This is Canadian, but $90 for the 90s. It's an expensive cart. And then it comes out on this little conveyor belt and there's just flies down. And then they hand it to you as a very odd experience. That's how I bought video games and then nothing keys. And that vaguely reminds me of toys r us when I was a kid, or were they similar back then. Back then we would go into Toys R Us, at least for like big ticket items or expensive items that were small like video games, bikes, that sort of thing. You'd go over to where you wanted it, find the tag for it, pull out the paper, take it up front, ring it up, and they'd send it out on a conveyor belt conveyor belt after you purchased it. You'd have to take it over to the counter for getting your item come out of conveyor belt and you're on your way. It's such a weird contrast to today with Amazon where shit like that gets dropped to my doorstep.Jake 8:57 Like but like you music and finally six is The absolute standout and for me, it was the various character themes, which I'm sure we'll talk about, but I love the music and film a six and it's so impactful. I mean, I like seven, two, but six was my standout memory.Palsh 9:11 I like that. I'm going to go with seven just just for that I like six better I but I'm going to say that I haven't played six as much as I've played seven, but I like six better. That makes no sense to me. But I remember in high school, borrowing it from my friend and played it for hours and hours and hours. I mean, I had I think three or four master magic materias I had a double master summon, I had all of them except for I think was the yellow one because that was ridiculous to get. I played past the point of where the game actually registers how long you've been playing because it kind of resets itself after 100 hours. I think the number would change so it'd be like flashing yellow or something to show that you already went over 100 hours and then after You went over 200 I think is how it worked, they would just kind of just max out at like 9999 or whatever. And so I have no idea how many hours I actually killed just leveling everybody up to a level 100 So, for for a game that I loved in high school, I really I think I burnt myself out on it because I really felt the need to play it since. But I have in the last year and I played it on stream actually and I kind of did the quick way through. And I got through by the skin of my teeth. So, ya know, so there's a lot of things going on in both six and seven stories are just, there's so much different. They can have so many similar themes, but six I find resonates more for me. I don't know about you guys, but for me, it's just it feels like more of a personal story because, you know, the world is it seems like smaller, you know, all the towns that you go in are little, you know, little spots, you know, little villages kind of thing and, you know, there's a hardware limitation First off, but Know you supposed to be still a big world? And I think they did with the ps1, I think they were able to kind of give you a bigger scale, the futuristic, you know, the steampunk angle and stuff like that, and then you get outside of Midgar. And everything else is more classic Final Fantasy. I found like that was a big shift for me and it really threw me off a lot. SoJake 11:23 were you disappointed after a big car because they spent so much time I mean practically the first disc on midcard and it's such a flushed out and it feels like a huge city. And then when you're done with that mid garriga on the world map, nothing quite compares that first city.Palsh 11:39 I think I know what you're talking about there. But for me I was because I was spent so much time in there. I thought it was going to be like oh my god is everything going to be this intense. But uh, no, when we got out of it, finally I was I was kind of relieved because I was like, Okay, now this is where I want to be. I want to I want to kill stuff and ride chocobos and so it wasn't so big a deal, but I I think that's part of what made it so integral is how much time you actually spend in Midgar. So when you finally get out and realize there's a whole different world besides the city, then you know, it's kind of cool. It's just like, oh, wow, you know, what else is this game when I offer soGP 12:14 it's kind of like the matrix. So once you get out of mid Gar, everything changes from those, like dark green and dirty kind of colors into the clear, you know, clean green of the grass, and then they finally introduce blue into the color palette. You know what I mean? Like you have the sky you have the ocean, and it feels cleaner. Like, you know, you understand it's a video game. Your characters are real, but you can breathe better. Now that you're out of mid Gar.Wulff 12:45 Yeah, mid guard did a really good job of conveying that. This city is just so polluted and smogged up and corrupted, and it's a mess. Exactly.Palsh 12:59 So It's I think they needed that, which was really cool. And they did such a great job like it's not a small feat for you to get at Midgar I mean, how many hours do you have plugged into the game? It starts a whole lot faster with Final Fantasy six you jump in, you don't know what's going on, you know, they they get your attention in similar ways you start out beginning of six controlling Tara and the magitek nights there and she's gone you know if you don't know what's going on and question yes how many questions and all of a sudden in seven this the same thing you're about to blow up a reactor kind of deal and you're like, what's, what's going on? So they start off very similar in the way that you know, you don't know what's going on and you're trying to piece it together as you go along.Palsh 13:48 It's it's interesting because some of the things that made it so well received in seven are a lot of the things that spawned off of six you know materia systemPalsh 14:00 is a natural progression A lot of people say for coming from espers, you know, is lot more strategy involved. It was a lot more polished obviously. But they had so much in common with each other. I mean espers were basically permanent materia. You know, you could learn your spells, keep them, but materia required you to strategize more so like that's, that's something in its favor, or seven that I really never thought of before. metiriaWulff 14:26 had strategy in, you know, material choices as well as material synergies.Palsh 14:34 Exactly. So there's different ways you could play it like if you played through six, you know, this is probably the only complaint I have about six is that everybody becomes a major. You get everyone you know, you teach Stephen or seven as I always called him. You teach him Ultima and then never use it because you're too busy, you know, bomb trains. Yeah, exactly. It's weird because you It's a little bit more typical older style generation game for six, because you could still do that grind, you could still teach everybody, every spell you need to do. You can do that in seven to a degree, but it's a different way of doing it. Like you can pass it on to another character. So you can have another character instead of, you know, having to do the same thing over with each character. So it's, it's a different experience, but I thought it was, I don't want to say a better one. I think statistically, it might be but I mean, like, I'm just a naspers fan. I like toJake 15:36 see for me I when it came to the espers I didn't feel a need to Maximo. I mean, I played six a few times over the years and I never really felt the need to grind for spells for everybody or at least didn't feel like much of a grind. Whereas materials seven I felt especially toward the end game when you want to get certain material maxed out in order to duplicate that took that was a grindy I didn't like that at all. I felt as a little bit much leveling the materia I did not like it all, I felt that too grindy I guess is the way to sum it up. I also for the espers. But I also found metiria as a, as a gameplay mechanic was probably superior. And just like will set with synergies. The customization aspect was really interesting that I don't think they really kind of went all the way they should have whether they could have done more with it. The best example of Materia I think being done well, is a game called Path of Exile, which they do their skills similar to metiria, where you can take a Firebase skill and attach, you know, a sex another gem called split, suddenly that fireball splits into two. Or you can attach an ice effect to that fire spell. Suddenly, it's an ice fireball. Like that kind of mechanic and Path of Exile is something I really wish we had back in fontys seven, where you could do more with the materiaPalsh 16:54 Yeah, that's that sounds really cool actually.Wulff 16:57 Another thing to consider with six is andWulff 17:00 The espers versus materia is metiria kind of took not just the espers, but also a lot of the relics from six and melded them into one function. Do you want to give an example here for anybody? Yeah. So what there was, I don't remember the names of the relics from six anymore. It's been so long, but you'd get a relic that would make it so you'd attack four times or something, right. So that Yeah, there you go. So you to equip that and then you do a big attack like that. And so stuff like that got turned into metiria. But then, so did the big spell chains like the big blood sagas and fire ragas and things like that. Those also got dumped into a metiria. So it sort of meshed two systems that were very broad strokes into one system with a finer brush, so I do think materia on the wholeWulff 17:59 was a much more focused mechanic than espers. But then you also had a much smaller set of characters.Palsh 18:11 Yeah, I likeWulff 18:12 with that though it probably made the game that's that's probably what made the game at least if it wasn't less grindy seamless grindy because you were doing things, you weren't maxing out espers for every single character, you were, that the material could be transferred from character to character in the party, and it would still maintain its level that it had before.Palsh 18:36 Right. And that's, that's the thing like it ended up becoming a point where you can pass it off to somebody so if somebody in your party died, still kind of pissed about that boiler, please. I'm not saying names okay. I'm just saying, but I mean, there's there's different points in the game where your characters leave like, you know, Eris is gone at one point, you know, maybe Forever maybe not, you know no cloud is the main character arguably of the entire game and you know you lose him Tifa leaves to go with cloud at one point you know, so characters leave in the party and you know what would happen if if I had if I had a group of just cloud Tifa and Eris or error then you know you'd be screwed but you can take their take their material put it on another character and go and it's not a like a game changer anymore. So you can you know, you have to learn you have to adjust to it but it's not going to like ruin your experience. It's kind of like you would lose characters in six as well my you know, especially when you have to get them all back in the world of ruined later on. But at the same time, it's a little bit different because you know, the way the leveling scaled you know, if you if you grind it ahead of time, everybody else that you get further down the line or kind of on par with who you already have It's a little bit isn't actually it's a lot more lenient, but it can be a lot more grinding depending on how you play.GP 20:06 So I want to interject and just kind of make a point here about both Final Fantasy six and seven. I know we're contrasting them but in one way that they are the same. I think they are the two in my opinion of the kind of classic series will say up to like nine or 10 the grind deist of the games, but I find that the grind in both of the games is entertaining six for its own reasons, you know, you can just make every ageGP 20:33 but with the thing about seven The reason I like seven so much. With the end here we are halfway through the show, I'm considering changing my my camp and saying Final Fantasy seven because now I've got an urge to play it.GP 20:47 But the thing about the materia system is if you know what you're doing and you know where to go and you know what to equip and how do we equip it. Grinding is not that bad. There are weapons and armor out there. That will give youGP 21:00 twice and triple the, you know, AP or whatever they go toward that, or there are areas where you don't get experienced, but you get a buttload of AP. And, you know, there's likewise similarly again in six and seven parts of the game, where once you get to this, this part, you realize there's nothing that you have to do, you can just go and grind if you want to. And, to me, that's, that's brilliant, they leave you the open window, and they say you have access, you know, now to the entirety of the world. go explore find out how to do this, or spend, you know, 200 hours doing it, you know, or don't, it's completely up to you. But first grindy as both six and seven can be, I don't get bored with that part of the game. I get bored with other parts of the games, but never, never the grind. And I think that's part of the brilliant thing about the one thing with the grind for probably seven specifically is soJake 22:00 Specially toward the late game. You want to use the summons to nuke everything when you're doing fast battles, but it's not as bad as a seven those summons are really long. How did you find those? Wasn'tWulff 22:15 Knights of the Round something like a minute and 30 seconds or something like that?GP 22:19 Unless you do dual cast Quadro magic and then it's all afternoon. It's more time so No, you're right. They're very cinematic and they are breathtaking and for the time beautiful. But yeah, once you you spam them, you know four times in a row twice. They lose their charm. You're exactly right. Yeah, BahamasJake 22:38 Can you please stop love the earth and give me a short, short one, please just just for your family.GP 22:44 When you're 14 years old, and you have an opportunity to see Shiva, eight times you use that Oh, baby.Palsh 22:51 Thank you. Thank you. All right, she's still my favorite this day. Now I'm gonna be thinking about Shiva for the rest of the episode. So thanks there. Okay, so What where to go from here?Wulff 23:00 All right. Let me let me take it for a moment. I'd like to say that, you know, I, I know I ruffle a lot of feathers because a I talk a lot about how I'm not the biggest fan of seven when seven comes up. I for everything it gets, right. And it does, it gets a lot, right. The biggest and most important shortcoming for me with that game is it is a 90 hour pity party. I can't deal with that much. That don't get me wrong. First time I played through the game. I was enthralled. Everything was awesome. To me. It was a wonderful experience. It changed how our PGS were presented. And what was expected of JRPGs. Great, you know, but it's just 90 hours of constant sadness. know my story said no, my story said, and yeah, there's the little bits of quirky in there like you can make cloud and bear it go on a date at the gold saucer but I mean, there's there's never a moment that's like yes, this is awesome. You know? It's it's always just like God, everybody so sadJake 24:14 clouds whiny to just evoke whinyGP 24:18 yeah I don't disagree with you except for one part I will say I think the weakest part of Final Fantasy seven is cloud and his story everybody else's stories make some sense and all that kind of stuff, but there's a lot of big question marks that aren't very cohesive with cloud and he's so angsty and not a great leader, but he's the protagonist. But the one thing I disagree with you the most on on what you just said, Well, as you said, you know, one of the weaknesses there compared to six is how sad everybody's story is. Final Fantasy six as the most heart wrenching, backstories, setser, cyan there has never been a more tragic story than science story if you ask me. I don't disagree with you. But you have points in that story where those characters are not constantly in a low you know there are there are a lot of points in six that are you know upbeat and not necessarily to ever seem happyWulff 25:14 not necessarily but upbeat you know, it's it's a moment that's not about the sadness there are points that are like, crap we got to get this done. This is you know, this is awesome. This is epic. This is amazing. You know, this is adventure. Seven never felt like adventure to me.GP 25:35 I thought it was plenty adventure, but you're right, even going into the final battle. Cloud is like, Well, here we are. I guess we might mosey? Yeah. Let's mosey. Yeah. Yeah. He's not the most effective protagonist and I do find that to be one of the bigger weaknesses of seven.Palsh 25:50 You brought up two good points there both of you actually. And one, I'm gonna I want to address one real quick because the quicker of the two but I want to say like, I think Six has a has an advantage, I'm being a lot more positive and upbeat considering the graphics and the you know the overall art. Because, you know, the it's pixel art, you know, it's it's cartoony it's it's limited, they're trying to go for something more serious with seven they're trying to make it more dark and gloomy. So I think you're totally right though like it everybody's always on a down note, you know, said I was a cantankerous old geezer because you never get to go to the moon. You know, Vincent was beating himself and braiding himself and locked himself in a coffin because he couldn't do it couldn't save the woman love, you know, all these everybody has this heart wrenching story and, you know, these are the reasons why they're fighting. But well, I mean, that's so much said but, but everybody has a reason to go against Shinra everybody has a reason to stick around in six because they all want to save the world from Kefka because, you know, everybody has a reason behind it. You know, cyan like I said, This is probably the most heart wrenching, and I never realized it until now. But yeah, that's, you know, he's, he's trying, he's trying to go for that. So all this stuff I think with the art is what I'm trying to get at is that, you know, the graphics of six, were there more chibi style, they're more cartoony they're more pixel as opposed to trying to go for something more serious with seven I think that in his favor there because it kind of makes the light hearted moments more light and then you kind of have to use your imagination more for when things get darker. Because I mean, when I was a kid, and I saw Kefka coming, I was like, this guy's a fucking asshole. And I didn't like I'm just like he's aJake 27:40 joker but he's bad.Palsh 27:42 Yeah, but exactly, but like I didn't respect it as much as a kid but now that I look at it, I'm like, okay, you have that theater in your mind like GP says and you know, it makes you think about it and say, This guy is crazy. You know, he's not just like wearing a clown makeup and just kind of nuts. He'sWulff 28:00 Pure villain you know with the art style you have to kind of fill in the blanks is what I'm trying to say. But see in seven you don't get the the quite so quirky relationships that you get in six. I mean you you get the you know they all have sad stories let's let's take Gao for example. I mean poor kid he grew up in the while he was basically raised by wolves. And, you know, never knew his parents speaks poorly. He barely speaks, but his relationship with cyan and saben it's it's not only heartwarming, it's also hilarious. Yeah, they took a sad character and made him not make you go God, this poor kid, this poor kid, this poor kid.Wulff 28:51 I mean,Jake 28:52 I don't think I was a sad story. I agree. You have this kid. He goes out in the wilderness. He's battling monsters. He's basically a Pokemon trainer. Everybody praises ash and bread and Pokemon is like this great character guy was ashGP 29:06 here's here's exactly why GaoGP 29:13 okay it's not the girl is fighting the monsters he's living amongst and learning their stuff and then once you feed him beef jerky that's all you have to do to get him to turn on them because then he will go and kill everybody he just ran with like he's a liability is all I'm saying you better hope nobody else has beef jerky or your whole crew is gone.Palsh 29:33 I'm scared of Gavin now I love galaxGP 29:35 I love God. There's that there's that tragic thing about you know, being separated from his parents living in the wilderness. But he's never a character that feels bad for himself. Cloud feels bad for himself every moment of every second even when staring at diva he's like I'm sad that you're hot.Wulff 29:52 And and if I'm my favorite character in seven is Barrett because as sad as he is and as sad as his story. He's always trying to find the silver lining. He's always trying to be upbeat. He's he's trying to raise marleen to not see the world as the piece of crap that it is, or atGP 30:12 least identify the pieces of crap. Instead of saying everything sucks, being like, No, it's just Shinra.Wulff 30:19 Everyone. I mean,Jake 30:20 there's always angry though.Wulff 30:22 He's angry because he feels the need to fight for his righteous anger. Even when I was a teenager playing this when it first came out. I saw that and I loved that about that character. But I think cloud is just like, how can you just not all the time?Jake 30:41 like I do, but he's always so angry like cloud. Why don't you care? I'm so angry. You don't care. Marlene I'm so angry my glasses and IWulff 30:52 again, I suspect part of that is because of, I think some of it is just how much animeWulff 30:59 style, they rubbed on the story. But I also think part of it is translation.GP 31:04 Well, but also think about this. They the characters didn't really have faces. They didn't have facial expressions because of the limitations. They had shape, but they didn't have faces. So you think about the script and then like the animations of Barrett whenever he gets mad, he shakes his fist and you can see him trembling. That gives it a little bit more drama because you can't see the anger on his face. You can read the words in the script and know that he's he's cussing and know that he's shaking. And yeah, you kind of take over that said, I do you guys know the extra Craig Robinson. I imagined he is Barrett. So even when he's angry, it still has that edge to it of, I'm going to try to make everything okay, but this sucks. You know, so, otherwise, I think everybody would just be crapping in their boxer briefs the entire timePalsh 31:50 where it is that the guy from Hot Tub Time Machine is andGP 31:54 he's not veryWulff 31:55 good. I can see that. I think next time I try playing seven. I need to like pick it actor that kind of fits each characterGP 32:03 no you don't haveWulff 32:05 one for Barry but I mean all the other characters I think need one too.GP 32:09 Okay, then I will do that too, but I will think that Steve Carell is cloud that way I might like him a little bit more. I'mPalsh 32:18 just gonna stick with Office actors. I'm gonna I'm gonna try to rein things in and pretend them the hosts still are just cuz we Oh no, no, it's great. No, because I just think that's hilarious because we all have such different stances on this and like, I swear to god this this episode could be six hours long if we kept going.Palsh 32:35 But I was gonna say I just want to say for cloud for me, I think it's confusing. Thinking about him because he's he's a clone of Sephora spoilers. I should say spoilers first. Too bad.Unknown Speaker 32:51 My emerge sorry, not sorry.Palsh 32:52 ruin my immersion. Yeah, so, but he's a clown. He's a clown, a clone. And he doesn't even know who he is. He doesn't know he's a clone. And he was a failure before that. So when he died, like the real cloud, that's gone. Basically, he doesn't know who he is he failed it becoming someone in soldier. And so he was just a weakling, he was a coward. And then all of a sudden, he just has more power than he knows what to do with. So I think that's what they tried to do to balance them out a little bit is make him cowardly. Make him like, oh, like, you know, he's got that shitty attitude because he doesn't know who the fuck he is, you know? So, I mean, I think that's relatable for me. It's just like, he has no sense of self. And that causes him to just second guess everything. And I thought that's, that's the only thing that made him human to me is because he's the genetically modified super soldier. You know, he's he's Sephora in with different hair and All of a sudden, doesn't know who he is, you know, you go from Sephora off being just crazy and wants to take over the world or destroy the world so you can become powerful. Cloud just wants to fucking know where he is. So that's, that's, I like, like I said, I'm agreeing with everything you guys to say but I'm just that that's my stance on Cloud is is actually recently changed because I never thought about it this light is just he's he's lostJake 34:25 it just want to say like in terms of cloud as protagonists is every time squared tries to do the silent protagonist. I don't think he really works very well. I think their strongest stories have been told with an ensemble cast, everybody speaking like six or four. But clouds specifically the one of the reasons why I think he's just so sad all the time, is I think it was the producer of the game. At the time his mother died, yet he was going through a grieving period and he just didn't know how to express it. And when you take that, as the background, a look at Cloud, he's just calm Constantly depressing and, and sad and doesn't know how to deal with everything around me just numb impersonality when I think of the producers dead mother nice grieving that's kind of correlates to me and why he made cloud that way. Even though clouds his motivations are different ultimately, the feeling I get from the way he's in the game, kind of call us back to that for me.GP 35:19 Sure, I think it would be easier to create and write a character like cloud from a point of despair. Speaking about the retribution, or like the redemption moments that are lacking so much, and seven, there is the same right before you battle Hojo in Midgar, at the end, where he refers to cloud again and says, Oh, yeah, you're the failure. Maybe I misjudged you recently, you know, because that if for no other reason is the one relatable part to cloud is, you know, you've been cast aside everybody at some point, even if you're the most successful person in the world has felt disenfranchised. So to kind of feel like you've been capturedGP 36:00 Decide, but you've accomplished something nobody else has accomplished, you know, in your ilk. I think that's the one universal truth from cloud that everybody could relate to. It just happens so late in the game, and it's somewhat predictable, that it falls a little bit flat. Would you say is predictable? Looking back at it, or was it predictable back then? Well, no. I mean, he's your main character. And I mean, you know, obviously, I'm gonna say,GP 36:29 after Eris, what happened to Eris, everyone say, she's just waiting for guys to fall out of the sky. So after she's gone, you know that you're basically susceptible to losing anybody. We saw that also in Final Fantasy six. But with cloud, you are always given that idea of he is going to be your leader and your final, you know, you're never not going to have them and even if you lose them, which you know, you do, you'll get him back. So I think the redemption arc there in that way.GP 37:00 Of course, was obvious he was always going to be that guy, because you don't have the option of removing them from your party, which is the difference between six, you know, in six, you can just take anybody out of your party, whatever the fuck you want, with few exceptions. But yeah, I do feel like the cloud stuff was predictable in that way. I know I'm kind of rambling here. There's a lot of unpredictable, unpredictable stuff about cloud story because it's nonsense. But the redemptive arc there yes, I do think that was predictable, if that makes sense. Yeah, I wouldn't have ever been like, oh, clearly he is, you know, taking over somebody else's memories. No, that's that's absurd. But the redemptive arc Yes.Palsh 37:39 Well, I think that's part of what's making this game such a such a big deal for people to want to see a remake is because look at the conversation we're having over a single character, I mean, yes, protagonist of the game, but you can you can talk about other characters and other games just in much as much depth But there's so much more back and forth there's a lot more to consider so like you know he's not perfect and I like that sure he's got annoying tendencies and stuff like that but I didn't find it that bad personally. I mean you can look at all the characters like whatever happened with shadow and stuff like that like shadows backstory and you know everybody else's and egos like it's kind of crazy to think about it but I mean you have to go out of your way more with the with Final Fantasy sticks as opposed to seven sevens. So much more in depth. It feels like like the stories tighter but six I think because the ensemble cast, it has a lot more. What do you want to say open like just a little bit more you can take it at a glance if you want to. And I think that's part of the charm for me is because if you have favorite characters, you can pay more attention to what they say you know, when you have a party of three versus party of four It makes a big difference now. Three, I think the comment and stuff like that aside, I think that six for me has a better story just for the fact that there's a lot more going on. There's a lot more personal things like they're all on a vendetta against Shinra and six and seven, and six. They're all on a vendetta against Kefka. But it's like they all have different motivations, but six they're not all trying to save the planet. They're all trying to save each other for me, you know? I mean, they are trying to save the planetJake 39:30 you get a free the two villains I mean, it's it's Kefka is the one wearing the boxers and separatists boring these, you know, dainty silk briefs. They don't go pear Kefka is just a maniacal like Joker esque crazy son of a bitch who's actually destroys the world like he's scorch the earth and the latter half is in a desolate wasteland basically because of Kefka separ auth. Has mommy issues right? I'd like I'd never got the appeal separate the Only thing I like about Sephiroth is he's got a really catchy theme song which good for him? He's a rock star. Otherwise I have he's just not Kefka he has a good theme to has even better but he has the he has the the the actions to backup How crazy is he's a great villain. I love Mr. villain.Palsh 40:18 Yeah, I think Kefka is probably the greatest villain in the Final Fantasy games to me. So that's the ones that I've played.Jake 40:25 I think so he's up there. IWulff 40:26 agree with that.GP 40:29 If we're talking about the series golden.Palsh 40:32 Always rad Yeah, don't get me wrong.GP 40:34 It's an amazing theme song thatWulff 40:36 I have to disagree with that to the point for to the extent that it wasn't really golbez pulling the strings there.GP 40:43 You know, but that's an interesting point. Let's let's look at this and not talking about four but talking about really a lot of these Final Fantasies. You start off thinking the bad guy is one thing or one person the Empire Shinra golbez. And there's always this big reveal where it transitions to you know, Xena says A wrongness or whatever, or the you know, KefkaWulff 41:03 I'm not saying Squaresoft is always nailed the transition to like, Who's the big bad? It was the actual big bad. Final Fantasy nine. Like you spend the whole game doing one thing, and then you get to the tail end and it's like, I am big crystal floating head. Okay.GP 41:21 I'm saying I just never realized that, like, you know, who's a better villain here? Shinra or the Empire?Wulff 41:28 Well, who cares? But even early on Kefka was manipulating the situation constantly. He was pretty regularly. The bad guy you dealt with he was part of the Empire. But he was the worst of the Empire. You know?GP 41:45 Yeah, even the even the EmpireJake 41:46 hated him stuff for I was just reading books and lifting weights. is cool.GP 41:50 But Kefka I think Kefka I think polish. Nailed it. He is probably in my opinion, again, agreeing the the coolest and most interesting. Like the one I would want to see appear in more things. big bed. Yeah. And he sounds a lot like zoidberg.Palsh 42:10 So, as you can see, there's, you know, we've only talked about a couple of things we talked about protagonist. And for for one game, basically because there is no single protagonist in the second one, even though people talk about, you know, Tara in the first half and Celeste and the second for Final Fantasy six, you know, there's so many different things we can go on. We can talk about either game for hours and hours. It's amazing to see how much of a difference between this game and then you know, I thought there was three in North America was what we got the six. So when Final Fantasy seven came out, I thought there was you know, Fallout four or five and six that came out in Japan or something that we never got because the difference between six and seven graphically I was like, Oh, wow. So you know, I was trying to find out and then I found it. Oh, wait. This is this was we never got we never missed them this time. So it's really cool to see, you know, how much of a change not just graphically I think they changed, you know, for better for worse they changed everything. You know, they they tried to make it more appealing for everyone I touched on it earlier, they added mini games, you know, they had little backstories and things that just stood apart that you didn't see in the other games that they couldn't have done without the hardware. So they tried to make up for you know, lack of hardware and I think they nailed it hasn't aged well. No, I think you know, sixes as well. But because you know it's 2d it has that advantage. It's always going to have that advantage. So you're always going to remember the sprites exactly as they are. I think when it comes to a 3d render of something, you're going to pitch your cloud in your head closer to what you see in the movies like an adventure hildren as opposed to the chibby style guy that you run around on the world map. So I think mentally, you're more predisposed to enjoying the 2d stuff personally for me in a way. I don't know about you guys,Jake 44:09 I agree hundred percent like I forgot how bad the models of cloud and the party members are for most of the game. The in combat the battle models look fantastic, but the rest of them aren't random worldspace actually when you're zoomed in really close like the opening area when you go in the train there and he drops down his chibby style, right, but at least performance you stick to that it looks fine. But the low poly lack of textures. It's an ugly game. And nowadays because the rent is low and the backgrounds are all low rez it just naturally can't age well, because of that. I'm actually looking forward to the remake because of all thatWulff 44:46 in defense of seven on that front as far as the characters presentation that the higher ups like the heads at square, they wanted more of the same in regards to What Final Fantasy looked like? So they really were like, let's let's keep the chibi characters let's keep the the cutesy look. And so that's why they all look doofy when you're running around everywhere, but the director, I was at Sakaguchi thing so yeah, here knows Sakaguchi Yeah, he he pushed for a better presentation where he could and that's why the models look so much better in combat. Because in combat he he was able to get away with that, since the characters kind of needed to be able to convey more information as it was. So he wanted the big characters that looked more detailed, like in eight Did you know, but square management wasn't having that they wanted chibi. They wanted what four, five and six had done. So on that front. I don't blame the project managers of Final Fantasy seven and the design and all that because That was that was management imposed limitations not so much a design choice.Palsh 46:06 Right. So yeah, that's great points there. And I find when you're switching back and forth from the the world map sprites, to you know, the battle ones and seven, I think that kind of is the closest you're going to get for having the same experience as playing sticks where you're always in the, you know, the sprite mode. But when you fight, say, at my weapon, or Dullahan, where these crazy crazy detailed sprites are, and then you have these tiny little chippy guys there, you kind of think like, why is that more realistic? And then I kind of think, okay, so these are more like placeholders in my head. You know, the sprites are placeholders, you kind of try to immerse yourself put yourself in there he named them after your friends like I do in high school, junior high, you know, you do that kind of thing. If you had, like I said, use your imagination more and I think that's kind of the closest You could do with six with seven when it comes to having the cheesy world map versus the cool battle sprites. I think the cool battle sprites for kind of what I was doing mentally in six is like okay, this is what I pictured them fighting like you know, so I don't know it'sJake 47:18 like finally six the what helped me because you're right the enemy sprites are very detailed and look awesome and they're kind of a contrast that up characters of the main characters but what helps me as we look at the profile screen or like the menu you get to see those detailed artwork headshots of all the characters. Yeah, and it's completely off the walls. Like, but it helps tie things together.Palsh 47:42 Exactly. And I think that's part of what made me picture those in my head if if you guys haven't done that, try it sometime. Anybody who's listening, give it a shot like it's, it's more like, okay, you know the graphics are dated. Yeah, I don't care. It was made in 9493 this stuff was I think it's still ahead of its time you know crono trigger the same way you know, the art of these old games, they stand up and they're iconic because you know there's more to it than just like poorly drawn sprites for some games you know, sometimes they're everything they do is on purpose they all have a purpose and the one thing that helps found a seven started her up is found by seven has the benefit of emulation these days, right.Jake 48:23 I want to go through it again, because I did start it but there's a large amount of mods for valancy seven on PC, including smoothing out the background environments, messing with the music, adding better polygons to the overworld map. Just a whole host of different mods you can install that make the game I mean it better against other games in this generation. I guess it makes it stand up a little bit better. Because some of the some of the stuff and finally the seven like for me, it was the lack of textures on some of the monsters. You got to remind yourself it's a PlayStation era game, and PlayStation one games are ugly. It was just the way it was right? demands help a lot. It was all brand new technology. Right? So I mean, they were still working. Probably they were still pushing the limits, I'd say back then even with the lack of textures, right, so because I mean, a polygon was like one color more than anything.GP 49:13 I think if you're a fan of Final Fantasy one, for example, the the argument about how bad the graphics are in seven is kind of a moot point. And the reason I say that is Final Fantasy one was a pioneer for what it was, and it's the exact same thing with seven. If the gameplay is there, and I think it's retro video gamers can appreciate what I'm Beth say, if the gameplay is there, the graphics are secondary in their importance. And there's meet Final Fantasy seven is exactly that way. They nailed the gameplay. So the graphics while they haven't aged well, I think people who complain about that really the only league they have to stand on is all of the commercials for Final Fantasy seven showed us the FMV so we all thought that salmony in gameplay was going to look so when it came to Of course, you're disappointed, but the gameplay was there. So to me the shittiness of the graphics, of course, they matter, but it's not that big of a deal because we already played Final Fantasy one. And it was the same thing, great gameplay, but the graphics are, you know, old world. So, for me, if I had one complaint about six, it's probably the battle system for the fact that everyone becomes a major, if I had a complaint for seven, it was probably the controls just for the fact that, you know, if you play it, you can't use the analog so that's that's something and it was the way it's screwed up with the skewed on most angles like your control your directions are just weird. So it's kind of wonky. So that's like my biggest beef with the game which is a minor thing, especially saying this is you know, it's it's not a platformer, save us all if it was butPalsh 50:52 but, so if you guys want to close it up here a little bit because otherwise we'll be talking about this for another hour and a half. So anything Any points you guys want to talk about before before we shut it down for the night.GP 51:04 Gold saucer was brilliant Chocobo breeding was amazing.Wulff 51:09 You know what the Chocobo part is still the only part that I'd be willing to go back and do and seven. And it's just because that was the part that was most fun to me.Jake 51:19 Have you played the MMO?GP 51:20 I a talking about 14?Wulff 51:23 Yeah, I played it a little bit because they added the gold saucer and the Chocobo racing and that is actually loads of fun. They also have triple triad in that as well. I almost because they're subscribing to it just to play those I did. I did both of those things. But yeah, like Final Fantasy six versus seven. I gotta go with six myself. And that's like mechanically, I do think seven is superior in almost every way. But if I'm going to sit and play a game for 60 to 80 hours, it's it can't just be download after download after down No like, to me seven is just a constant downward spiral with quirks. Six is a roller coaster, there's down moments, but they're followed by, you know, let's kick some ass. Let's do something awesome. You know, let's, it didn't constantly keep you in a state of despair. I gotta say I agree. And that's what, that's what makes it more memorable to me. I mean, you have, you know this story about the airship race between sets are and Daryl and it was sad. But it was interesting. And it was a cool little story backstory for setser that the fact that I also kind of respect the fact that six you can make arguments for who the main character is. Most people will just be like, it's Tara, understandably so. But I've I myself, I kind of use Celeste as the main character.Palsh 52:55 Well, that's the thing to like after the second bird when you get into the world or ruin. That's when I kind of takes over the rules less and so people argue that you know the first half is Tara second half slist both arguments valid likeWulff 53:08 well, it's not just that it's that Celeste has the biggest standoff with Kefka Celeste is the one you have to beat the game with. You don't have to beat it with Tara. True.Palsh 53:20 You can skip getting tear completely. SoJake 53:22 wait, can you for the second half? I thought you had to get her.Palsh 53:26 You can beat the game with test sets or Celeste and Edgar. As soon as you get sets or you get the airship and you can actually go take it. That's a challenge apparently amongst the runners and stuck IJake 53:39 will say that for probably seven. There was just always so many plot holes I guess in the overall story. I was still confused about cloud and soldier and who is a clone of I never got that I've watched all the movies and some of the other lore material but the game on its own standing on its own. The plot holes are too big six, I mean not Say that goes jgb there, but it's more forgiving because there's so many characters, and there's at least one or two sides story threads for each character. So you get enough of a plot to fill in details for that the character and it kind of doesn't matter that you don't have the whole story. But with seven being so cloud focused, it's those holes are really opening glaring, and that's why I like the story and six so much more. I do I do like seven but six is my clear favorite.Palsh 54:26 I'm gonna agree with you there is seven, much more centric around the you know, three or four characters. You have optional characters in both games you have UEFI or euphy and Vincent and seven you have tomorrow and go go and six, there's more backstory that will come out of it, but it seems like is integral in seven, like with delphis character and stuff like that you need to have her for this net. It's just I don't know. I'm just going to basically be Back home that I just like six better so I'm just gonna shut up. I think this is great. I mean, play whichever one you want. If you haven't played either play them both.Wulff 55:10 absolutely absolutely don't get don't sit here and listen to people in a podcast tell you don't play don't play six or don't play seven or don't play any game. Because we tell you it's a pile of garbage or we're not big fans of it or whatever. And that's not to say I'm saying seven is a pile of garbage. Like I said, I loved it the first time. The first time it was a great game, but subsequent attempts I can't do and I do recommend if you haven't played it and you like JRPGs absolutely do it.Jake 55:37 And like the benefit from the Fast Forward option now in current emulation, having a hotkey for fast forwarding through those long grinding battles is amazing.GP 55:46 No, we can't we can't talk about that right now. Jay.GP 55:52 That's a whole other episode my man no brian ross.GP 55:55 And yeah, can we can we get one of those randomizers like they do with Link to the Past and Metroidvania are super metroid. Can we get that with Final Fantasy? six and seven? Please? Isn't. Isn't there one for six alreadyWulff 56:07 know he's talking about like, combine them?GP 56:09 Yeah, you enter a door and all of a sudden you're in Final Fantasy six. And then you go back. Cloud is cross dressed. And yes, cloud I have modeled a lot of my drag looks after him.Palsh 56:24 You lie. That's, that's the missus.Wulff 56:27 I'll rip him off. Smash.GP 56:30 Done choreo he's a pretty pretty princess.Wulff 56:35 He's a pretty guys.Palsh 56:38 Alright guys, I want to thank you again for this is probably the most heated discussion we've had yet. So it's first time we've been talking over each other since like the first episode so I like it. So I'm going to give that two plus 10 two energy. And it was so a ladies and gentlemen, thank you for hanging out here. This has been presby to cancel and Hope to catch you next time. And in the meantime, don't match that be we got more coming.Jake 57:07 For sure. Well, we everybody listening, we hope you enjoyed the episode. And we all just want to come in and shout out our early supporters. I mean, we've been doing this now for, I think 12 episodes now. That's That's pretty good. But I mean, our listeners that have stayed with us from the beginning are much appreciated. And we've had a lot of love and support from quite a few people. There's a few, but we're just going to shut it a couple of right now. I'll start off with Blitz Brom, who's a notable streamer on Twitch, actually went ahead and added a command for podcast to advertise for us, which is great. Really appreciate that support, man.Palsh 57:41 Yeah, I'd like to thank you got Marin. She's also been supporting us and retweeted four episodes. So thank you, Mary.Wulff 57:49 I'd like to throw a thank you at sinica gaming, who is also added a command for us and constantly shouts out our podcasts in his his streams and others. Twitch streamer.GP 58:01 Yeah. And then another streamer who has been a not only a big supporter, but the the composer of our theme music ortherWulff 58:10 dang and theme music thatGP 58:12 manga. Yeah. But yeah, Arthur Arthur, the last ancient is is the man. And so thank you all for the love the support and the continued efforts at getting getting the word out about us. We appreciate you.Wulff 58:26 Absolutely. Thank you so much.GP 58:28 I want to ask you guys before we go, what does it feel like? Knowing all three of you were wrong today.Palsh 58:38 This has been pressed me to cancel. Thank you very much.GP 58:43 That was a lot of fun, guys.Jake 58:45 Yeah, it was good episode. Yeah,Wulff 58:46 that was a good one. Yeah.GP 58:47 All right. I'm gonna go and hit stop and then thatWulff 58:50 was a good one.Jake 58:56 Special thanks for music go two hours of the ancient found on Sunday. cloud or the last station on YouTube. For more episodes, please visit our website presby to cancel.com. As well Feel free to like or subscribe at Apple, iTunes, Google podcasts or anywhere else you'd like to listen to your favorite shows. As always, thank you. This has beenWulff 59:17 an ad again.Special thanks to Arthur The Last Ancient on soundcloud for our podcast theme. For updates and more episodes please visit our website www.pressbtocancel.com, or find us on Twitter @pressbtocancel and Instagram @pressbtocancel.

The Legend of Zelda: A Link To The Past. A game that has changed the world of gaming for many fans over the decades. Let's hear how it influenced the game world for the Press B crew! Episode Transcription: The below is a machine based transcription of this episode. Sorta like Skynet if it was 2 years old, and wanted a cookie. Take it with a grain of salt. Jake 0:00 Episode 11 links to past today on path.Jake 0:25 Welcome. Thank you for listening to presby to cancel I'm your host this week sick Jake. Today we're going to talk about my favorite Zelda game well, well maybe second favorite Zelda game. Anyway, I'm not here by myself. I'm joined by my fellow friends and co hosts starting with Polish polish. How are you today?Palsh 0:42 Dude, this is a start to sound like your last time you had this, like I was word for word or using the same intro.Jake 0:48 I like mad hockey. Honestly, to be honest with you, I kind of slacked off on the research. I just didn't last 30 minutes. So cross my fingersPalsh 0:59 do you want to keep In the episode I kind of do sureJake 1:03 whatever there is research, research,Palsh 1:05 research. Okay. Hi, I'm Paul swana nine.Wulff 1:08 Great to see who needs research when you know what you doJake 1:12 not know we're doing I'm also joined by werewolf How you doing? What? Wait that was unintentional burn shit.Wulff 1:20 What? What?Wulff 1:23 Howdy, I'm werewolf.Jake 1:25 Sorry, we'reJake 1:27 What are we doing and to bring us back to sanity for the therapy coach GP How you doing?GP 1:33 I'm doing fine. Thank you.Jake 1:34 It's good to be here. That was more normal than I was expecting. That's great. Okay.Palsh 1:39 Yeah, kind of disappointed.GP 1:44 I had some really good dick and fart jokes, but I decided to try to bring us back to sanity.Jake 1:49 Mission accomplished. All right. We're going to talk about Legend of Zelda Link to the Past. But before we kind of dive into it, I do want to kind of hear for everybody what you're expecting. ends with a Zelda as a franchise just briefly because we could talk for hours about this. Just your favorite movie favorite game for the series and what you like about the series or if you you're like me and you disagree with everything everybody says you hate it, that's cool too. Well, if you want to startWulff 2:14 Yeah, I Gosh, I would have to say that I used to split my favorites up between 2d and 3d entries. Whereas, you know, my favorite 2d game was linked to the past. And my favorite 3d game was windwaker for a very long time up until I played Breath of the Wild and then that one kind of supplanted it and I think it's safe to say now that overall experience like for a proper Zelda experience I think Breath of the Wild is my favorite but Link to the Past is still much more playableJake 2:54 Yeah, I think Breath of the Wild was great for the innovation right, taking the series A drastically new direction and I really I love it too. I'm almost thinking now that for me in the future, assuming they keep making games like breath wild, I have to split up into three, like classic 2d Zelda is your old school 3d Zelda, and then whatever the hell they're doing with Breath of the Wild now going forward, because I find that game so drastically different from the rest of the series.Wulff 3:18 Everybody says that, but to me, it just seems like it took the 3d gameplay and shoved the format into it, you know, the original Zelda just have at the world. Good luck.Jake 3:31 Actually, that's true. It does have that quote that elements and there's just not for me, it's the lack of items, I think is what kind of made it different for me. And just the gameplay being so rely on the physics. It's a great game. I love that one.Wulff 3:42 Yeah, it was a very different entry. It was a lot more limited. There wasn't 40 different items to obtain in the game. It was simpler, in a lot of ways, but also a lot more complexJake 3:56 overall. Yeah, definitely solid title. Alright, GP How about yourself? What's your exposure to zelda?GP 4:04 I personally I love Zelda to The Adventure of Link, not pluralized it's The Adventure of Link. AndUnknown Speaker 4:12 was he not allowed more than one?GP 4:14 No, it was just a single solitary adventure.Palsh 4:17 One is all you need, sometimes.Wulff 4:20 So you think most people refer to that as Adventures of blank.GP 4:23 But now I grew up playing, trying to figure out the first Zelda couldn't do it. And then the internet happened before everybody had a computer in their home. I live next door to the library. And so I would walk over to the library, spend an hour downloading maps for Zelda two, and fell in love with that game at that point in my life. So that one's got a very special place in my heart. I appreciate the newer ones Breath of the Wild is gorgeous. But it is one of those rare games where I prefer to watch other people play it, as opposed to playing it myself, but I love it. Also, aka RenaJake 4:58 Ashley. That's interesting. Make up your mind just so many zealots. I love how you mentioned Zelda two is your favorite though because that's also kind of a How do you say outlier from the series? Right? And we talked before about sequels being so different from the originals, but that side scrolling link game is just quite a bit different than the rest of franchise. That's pretty interesting.GP 5:20 Yeah, I love it. But and one of my favorite things that real quick about the franchise as a whole is the music and how really the music is one of the most cohesive things to tie together all of the entries. I'm sure we'll get to that later on. But you asked about what our experiences and that's that's my two cents.Unknown Speaker 5:39 Paul shovel you What's your what's your fascination with zelda?Palsh 5:42 My favorite I'm not a big like Zelda fan. You monster. Like I'm a freak. I'm a freak. Yeah. And just to prove it. My favorite game is actually in the series in the whole franchise is actually trulyJake 6:00 Yes thePalsh 6:03 Zelda to The Adventure of LinkGP 6:06 we are now almost the majority Good job Paul thank youPalsh 6:09 yeah and I and I'm not doing it just to make this cheeky against Jake but no that's it's literally literally my favorite Zelda game like the rest of them don't compare it to me I know and I understand why people often like rant and say they don't like it but I've never actually heard someone flat out say they don't like it except for a couple of friends that I make fun of for their choices anyway so doesn't matter everybody that whenever I was like playing it or something on stream or you know talking and another stream basically because this you know how I connected with people over games like this. It was always do this my favorite Zelda I'm like, holy crap, me too. So it's it's weird how it's the least favorite but at the same time, everybody I know it seems to be one of their favoritesGP 6:55 is this it's kind of it's that song that comes on the radio, where nobody wants to be like oh, The song so you all just sit there and listen to it and silently jam out. Nobody will change the radio station. Because you would think for a wild, widely, not like game. Everybody shows up when you stream it. Yeah,Palsh 7:13 yeah, that's true.Wulff 7:15 See, I don't know. I think it was a really solid game. People give it a lot of crap as a Zelda title based on the other side of Zelda titles. Yeah, it's a little weird. But as a game, it's really solid. And I think the only issues I have with it personally, are probably due to translation problems. There mirror. Well, no, not not even as simple as that. Like, there's a point where you have to like duck and stab at a table to get into a basement and one of the houses. That's how it's done in real life. Nobody in the game tells you that. And I'm sure in the Japanese version, there was probably dialogue somewhere that gave you the clue.Palsh 7:53 Yeah, the closest you get is like, look under the table or someone says something but table that has no indication on you know which table which were the you know, duck and duck and smack it.Wulff 8:06 Yeah, so it's it's really vague and cryptic about the few issues I have about it because it doesn't teach you these things. It barely even tells you about those things. And that's a problem but otherwise it's a really really good game. And I think that's just a translation issue, not a gameplay issue.Jake 8:23 Well, I mean, if you look at if I were to be locked in a room,GP 8:26 what do you think?Jake 8:28 Thanks to up as you guys were gushing about this, you know, Zelda to being so fantastic. I was gonna just say that I know it gets a lot of hate wolves right. And you know, if I was locked in a room with Mega Man one and Castlevania another hot garbage along with Zelda two I'd probably play Zelda two as well.Palsh 8:45 Take it back.Jake 8:47 I'm only joking it's not a bad game. I actually I actually do like it a lot. For me personally with Zelda I've been a fan for every every game. The only games I haven't played are the crap ones on CBI like a lot of people But I mean, I played the original original NES Zelda on a black and white TV. Like we used to visit my cousin. That was a TV in his room. We used to play Zelda for hours. I love the hell of that game. And it wasn't till I was a teenager when I got a stats I got late. And my dad when he says my dad, he said Zelda and just, he'd want to go play catch outside. He want to go to the movies. me. No, no, I'm not talking you dead. You're not cool. I'm just here to play Zelda. I don't love you. I just love Zelda. I love things of the past. It's, I mean, we're talking about this and we're talking about Zelda and like the past for this episode, but it's funny as we're recording this Link's Awakening remake came out, I think last week or so. And it's playing that, again is reminding me that links awaken is probably my favorite this series, which is funny, but it's, it's mostly because it's a spin off of linked to the past. Like it's very much in that same vein just expanded and better. Right. And but it's the same idea, just something about linked to the past the story The items and helicarrier links awakening both fantastic. I love Breath of the Wild too. But as I said earlier, I almost, I almost think of it as a separate game. It's definitely Zelda. But I don't think it's like the 3d was like our Marina and Majoris mask personally.Wulff 10:15 Well links awakening was very much a passion project, at least for a while it was developed after hours by people who were just screwing around with the Gameboy tech to see what they could make. And I I don't quote me on this because I don't remember who it was. But I want to say it was agio enuma, who actually started it all by himself just messing with it. Either that or he was like one of the first two people I'm pretty sure that jumped in on it. And then that guy was joined by someone else like what are you doing? I'm messing with this trying to make a Zelda game I'm trying to recreate Link to the Past on Gameboy. And they were into it. So they started doing this and it just eventually flow just Didn't do its own thing that pulled in elements from Zelda two and straight away from Link to the Past a little bit because one of the driving ideas behind the development was the ability to have two different like to change both buttons, you didn't always have to have a sword equipped. That was really the driving idea behind it initially. And it just blew up. But eventually it was like a dozen people working on it after hours before they finally took it upstairs and said we want to make this an actual thing. And then they got the Go ahead.Jake 11:35 And see that's actually really cool. Because when I was looking into Link to the Past development, there's actually some parallels there. So I mean, I guess we'll just get right into it then. So then it's super nintendo. I mean, it was unveiled internally, Nintendo in 1989. Right. I mean, obviously the Nintendo was a massive success. Stats had to be better. And there's two game franchises they knew they had to launch very quickly with the system or close to it. And that was very world and then linked to the past. So they actually had development start on both games at the same time or approximately the same time. But from what I've been reading with an interview that mimoto did number years ago, he kind of explained that Nintendo doesn't like to throw whole teams at a game development early, rather just a few people to start with. And then they do what you just described for links awakening, they kind of just tinkering around play with it threw around some ideas. In this case, they're also evaluating the hardware, how far could they push the hardware and see what they could do with it. And after they kind of nail down some concepts of what they thought would be good for a new Zelda game, that's when they started adding in more staff, eventually flushing out staff and then releasing the final game. So that experimentation is kind of like a Nintendo's mo I think for back then.Unknown Speaker 12:46 Raw speechless. That's all good. Okay.Jake 12:51 I'm checking my notes. Hold on one sec, nerd. Okay. Yes, I'm totally a nerd. Okay. So, development link. The past was two names that are being very familiar to people who listened to us before and one of my favorite, it's headed by Shigeru Miyamoto producing and then test tech Ashi Tezuka. I will never say his name right now I'll try I feel bad. I feel likeGP 13:16 he was never say right desicaJake 13:20 It's okay. I'm going to wake up the middle of night and Tesla will be over my bed for the copy of last levels. And he demand they played or I die. Like saw but Nintendo edition. Anyway, it says the cut Did you get for mispronouncing my name? forgiveness please, Jessica. I know he's the one who did last levels. He also had mario maker and that's why I know his name so late much lately as I love mirror maker. He's great director and both him yamoto are the heads of linked to the past. And so when it came to this game, I mean, they already knew that the original Zelda Nintendo was well received, but they want to have to do they have to kind of step it up, do something greater for the news. system, especially if this is going to be like a console seller or an early launch title. I mean, this game came out, I think was just after a year, the console launched. 91 is when Zelda came out was released. So they had to kind of do something new. The original Zelda was well known for its open world. The ability to purchase items from stores was pretty novel for the Nintendo, Nintendo. And the various usable items and you collect it through all these maze like dungeons. So they had to take on that expand it. So they looked in, kind of went back and said, Well, what could we do on Nintendo, that we can now with the stats, so it kind of that's when they kind of looked into things that could do like, more story and more plot better music, right? The idea of having two separate worlds the light world, The Dark World world is stuff that was not possible on the original Nintendo. So there's things like that they were looking at doing. One of the cool things I was reading about was they want to use more water right as an environmental effect. How would you say or gameplay affect the original Zelda there? One dungeon I think it was seven where you can get into the dungeon by basically drain the water on pond but it's Nintendo right there's only so much you can do so it just changed the color of the ground texture so from water to grounds and that's how they did it wasn't very good so when they saw that they want to expand on that link to the past and water and look to the past is all over the place right it's it's a theme in one that one or two dungeons at the very least pluses probably overwhelmed like the idea of swimming I don't think link pass a diving but the idea of swimming changing water lowering water all that's a major facet of like the the past so something to kind of want expand on.Wulff 15:37 As I say I didn't have diving I think it just had ducking to hide under the water from projectilesJake 15:42 Was it because I don't just still pretty close awakening has diving moves the same ideas. Yeah, can I confuse the two so much.Wulff 15:49 So linked to the past just had Ducky talking, but it was it was still a really cool idea of dodging projectile projectiles since you don't have your shield out. You can't just get out of the way so quick The water movement is a little bitUnknown Speaker 16:03 sluggish.Wulff 16:05 sluggish, sluggish. That's a good word for plusJake 16:07 they also they put the Zora monsters the mermaid monsters in the water and they're constantly popping up shooting fireballs at you and their pain on the ground nevermind we're in the water so it's glad there's some kind of defense against that. So I mean there's other things are looking at adding as well. One of them was the idea of fire the original game had the candle which you could burn Bush's right later I think you light up rooms with as well dark rooms that stuff they brought in to Link to the Past. They want to do bit more with it though originally the plan and developing it so that if you set a bush on fire, it would actually spread out to neighboring bushes and just fill the screen of fire wasn't able to do that on the Super Nintendo. They were even trying to just get it down one of the two that the big trees you could burn the big trees down, but they just couldn't get squeezed in there. In interviews memo to set up at six more months at DEF time, they probably could have figured it out. But it's kind of neat because that's the kind of mechanic that later came into Zelda for song. Which I'm not sure if you guys ever played Zelda for swords before anybodyWulff 17:05 I love for swords.Palsh 17:07 Yeah, me and my brother both had it but it was that Christmas time we both got it I think I got a copy of for him he got one for me I think he's have a work we are we we both agreed on getting one for each other and then we tried playing it and then he was gone the next day so I never actually got to experience it properly.Wulff 17:24 Okay, so I'll say that I got to play the whole thing on gameboy advance it was in the Link to the Past initially for Gameboy Advance and that was a really cool adventure. I think it was I got to play it three player. But then there's also the the actual Four Swords adventure on gamecube which was such a cool idea. I loved it, it was think Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles if it were Zelda instead, but then you could also screw with the Players, which often resulted in a lot of salt, and not very long gameplay sessions, so you didn't really get a whole lot of the game done that way. Unfortunately, you just described Bomber Man I'm super nintendo for me. There was too much. There was too much competitive aspect to a game that was supposed to be so heavily cooperative. And I think that was the game's downfall. But I still love the concept. And I I want to beat that game so bad and I don't know if I'll ever get the chance.Jake 18:30 There's gotta be a way we can do it online has to be because I played that as well with friends. I don't know if ever finished it though. But it's one of the reasons why I love couch Co Op games these days like you know, overcooked and, and whatnot because just that same feeling for me right for people on screen, messing with each other. You're supposed to be doing a co op game, but it never goes that way.Unknown Speaker 18:51 But while we're on topic, actually real quick. So the game coke GameCube Four Swords is that different from the 3ds one I thought they were the same thing.Wulff 19:00 3ds What are you talking about?Jake 19:03 Man? Sorry?Wulff 19:05 Oh no, they're very different games the game, the gamecube game is a fully fledged full fleshed out. It's its own adventure. You play it, if you're playing multiplayer, you got to play it with GB, right? That's what I had to do. And it was so cool because every time somebody goes into underground or something, you gotta switch and look at your GPA and play there. And then you go back to the overworld. And then everybody's on the same map again, and it it did a lot of really cool stuff that was way ahead of its time. And I would love to see a Zelda game do that sort of thing. Again, it's just maybe with more accessible control scheme.Jake 19:47 Yeah, well, I mean, that's the thing, right? Nintendo loves. They just love their hardware, right? They're always trying to find new interesting ways to do the hardware. They'll cost a lot of money. That goes back to like the Wii as well right the Wii and the multiple remotes and Just power glad for the or the or the I saw somebody using the force cut months ago that was another trip just so many control options that are bad but it's a lot of fun though I what I played it was really great. I would love to play it again actually okay so I guess I just want to talk a little bit about Link to the Past itself right i mean this is topic the episode and like it's hard for me cuz I do love everything about this game right? I love how there's actually a story to it. I love how it's you know, the tale of evil wizard who is trying to break a seal to another dimension and bring it back Ganon right stealing sages and maidens I think it's fantastic story. I love the music. I love the graphics. So I love everything with this game. So it's kind of hard for me to like narrow it down. So I'm gonna let relined you guys tell me something about the game that you love. And a couple kind of go with it. GPG actually wants start because we're talking about music earlier.GP 20:55 Well, yeah, I think the music is fantastic. Um, one of the things because For context, I just did my very first playthrough of this actually was more of a blind run earlier this year and like February of 2019. So I was brand new to the experience. And so many people have hyped up linked to the past I, I really felt bad for not loving it more until the end, I didn't realize how much I enjoyed it until you know, the credits for scrolling. And I'm like, Oh shit, there's no more I'm not ready to be done with it. But immediately the things that stood out to me, you know, the the more crystal clear, you know, expanded musical tones that they carried over from the older games, but also the clarity of the graphics and the smoothness more than anything. I think smoothness of gameplay is not something that you really associate with the original tues elders. And really see it kind of, I don't want to say perfected but you know, taken to a whole new level. It's such a smooth game and just beautiful There were a couple of things I still take issue with on that game. But on the whole what a What a fun experience. And I My only regret was that I waited 35 years to play it.Jake 22:12 Yeah, it's such a great game. The music is just iconic. For me. It's like there's a handful of composers I think are just great for video games as a whole and Koji Kondo is one of them. He's the one who did like the past, but he's also well known for the merio series as well.GP 22:27 Well, no, I just had his pissed off because the beeping will not stop I suck at the game so I heard I heard more than I heard music.Jake 22:36 Yeah, yeah, that beeping sucks. And that's like an all of them too.Wulff 22:41 Yeah, that's that's a sound that needs to start getting an option. Yeah,Jake 22:46 well, so we'll get to it in a little bit. But the the idea of Zelda randomizers actually have that option. But anyway, before we go into that, the music Koji Kondo Are you kidding me?Palsh 22:55 What? What?Palsh 22:56 Yeah. Oh, why didn't you tell me the lab to play all You know, you have to play Yeah.Palsh 23:02 Now we got to start over. I that is worth starting over for me. Okay, I'm just saying I'm that with the rent. Actually, no, I can't say anything. Yeah, the randomizer I was playing it as research for this. And actually, no, I shouldn't complain about it because the seed that I got for the randomizer I had, like, all but four hearts. I only ended up beating like one dungeon, I think it was.Jake 23:27 Yeah, so it actually has an option to make the beep like quarter beep so it's less frequent. I think you can change it even less than that, or you just turned off entirely. But if you're used to playing the games, and you use that boop, boop, boop, and you're gonna die. When you turn it off, and you're playing with three hearts and you're fighting a boss. You don't even notice you're at one half health or whatever, and you die very easily.Palsh 23:49 If that happens to me, IGP 23:50 very easily no matter what.Jake 23:53 Yeah, yeah, early on in Zelda games is always rough, right until you find that you know, the first few hard pieces to kind of even things out the beginnings are actually very tough. Do hard pieces give you more life. That's how bad the game I don't even know if you want to watch a stream or do a three heart run of any of this all the games, I've seen a few people do that actually. And it just I thought I was good at some of these but now these people are masters at it's insane.Wulff 24:18 I think that would just make me sad.Palsh 24:21 Just be like, no.Jake 24:23 So I wasWulff 24:24 never played Zelda again.GP 24:27 I don't know. I The reason I people say that they're like, I don't like watching masters of games, because it makes me sad. And I think I'll watch ice skating, but I don't kick myself in the astronaut being a master ice skater. Well, you're doing it wrong. Come on. Well, it's mostly an issue with the costumes. I don't look that good in dresses. ButPalsh 24:46 yeah, this is true. I've seen you in dresses. SoWulff 24:50 back to the can bring it back around. Jake's question from earlier. I guess I'll take the answer next. My favorite aspect of this was the fact that it had to overworldJake 25:01 Yes,Wulff 25:01 darker light when I first played it back in, I think, did it come out in 9191? Yeah, I probably paid it in 92 because I don't think I had a Super Nintendo that first year, man that second overworld all of a sudden, just there's a whole nother world in the game. It just blew my mind. I was like, What is this? This is amazing. I was one of those kids who did spend most of his time indoors playing games. I had a TV in my bedroom. I had all sorts of stuff. So when it was that, like, that's not to say I didn't go out and ride my bike all the time and stuff like that, because I did that too. But it was cold or I didn't want to go outside. I could game my friends could come over and hang out with me and we could just play in my room. And this is a game I spent hours on I played the crap out of it. I beat it once I beat it twice. I probably beat it six or seven times in the first two years of owning it. And it was so much fun. This is a game that friends and I would sit Watch each other play and we're doing we're doing the twitch thing well before twitch was a twinkle in someone's eyeJake 26:08 you're watching me through a window andGP 26:11 would have been much better to be able to band people back then to get out of my out Larry go change your name and come back laterWulff 26:20 go home john john. You're pissingGP 26:21 me off you know john.Wulff 26:25 I knew a few of them. I knew a few John's I knew a few Jimmy's. We all hung out. It was weird. And that's not a joke.GP 26:36 Before I forget, I have to ask you werewolf. I have to ask you a question about everything you were just saying that you loved. Because earlier when you were talking all that mess on Zelda to Adventure of Link about the No one told you to look under a table. That was my main issue with Link to the Past. There's so many things that there is no indication that you should look under there or move that Like the bubble walls are the closest thing you get to hince other than that, you know, move this tombstone pick up this tree. Like how are you supposed to know that stuff? So I feel like your thing about that was Zelda two is a good point. But I want you to address how is that okay for Link to the Past? Because that's where all of myself that game came from.Wulff 27:22 See, I don't know I just kind of knew that certain things could be moved, you know, you can move blocks, you start messing with stuff. I do think Sahasrara law might have had a lot of clues hidden on the walls and dungeons and around yes and whatnot. That might have explained it. I don't know. I it's been so long since I played the game proper. I can't guarantee that Sarah Sally said everything.Jake 27:49 Sarasota was a sage or in some respect, please.Wulff 27:55 Oh, I'm sorry sir Sarah Sally.Palsh 28:00 So, I mean, there was also some stuff listed into the mag manual too, soWulff 28:07 that's true. And then if you really got stuck there was that little hint guide that came with the game too. I still Oh yeah.Palsh 28:15 A little was like fold out the black and white folded.Wulff 28:18 Yeah, little two by three fold out pamphlet.GP 28:21 Yeah. Okay, well, that's fair. I guess. If you grew up with the game, and you had a tablet or something like that telling you what to do. That makes more sense. Thank you.Wulff 28:31 That little booklet though. It was sealed when you got it and it made sure to let you know, you know, only open if you get really stuck.Palsh 28:38 Yeah. And you opened it like the first or second dungeon because you didn't know what was going on. You know, you never forget it. ButGP 28:47 let's just like the table. Yeah. Now, you know, look under the table, right?Jake 28:51 Yeah. That's like a Zelda Zelda is all about rewarding exploration. Right. And the idea bottle walls almost didn't make it into the game. So than the original Zelda, you could, you know, bomb walls but they weren't distinguished, I think then we could tell them the original was with the sound of the note that it made when you hit your sword against the wall. I think that's the thing. And they have that and Link to the Past. But Miyamoto experimented with, you know, having the ability to bomb walls because he found that was very rewarding to players if they actually took the time to explore dungeon and four secrets. But then he realized what the original, you know, the problem is, is too easy to miss, you know, some of the rooms that could be there. So if you didn't know to look for the rooms, you'd be kind of missing out on some of the content. So that's why he kind of stuck with the idea bominable cracked walls, so it makes a little more visible to what you're doing. But there's some stuff that like both mentioned, sometimes you just know you need to do something in a room. Like when you're playing a Zelda game and there's like five blocks standing on their own. You just know you're going to push one of them. It's just one of those things that kind of ingrained on you early on with the gameplay.Wulff 29:50 Yeah, or if there's a key door in a room and there's just a bunch of enemies and nothing to do probably kill all the enemies in the Drop a key something like thatJake 30:02 but like it's definitely a game it doesn't actually hold your hands or when your hands that's the thing anyway but you definitely a game where you have to explore I guess to kind of get the most out of it there's items you can miss I think in that game as well. You don't necessarily need all the items to finish the game which I think is amazing. Paul shovel you Yeah, well, yeah, there's the invisible cape is one of the item Oh, yeah,Wulff 30:24 there's the cane the cane.Jake 30:27 Okay, at least a few.Palsh 30:28 Yeah, I found the magic cape. By mistake. I remember that. And I was really proud of myself because neither of my brothers did it. So you know when there's a 10 year gap between you and your older brothers, and you do something they did? It's bragging timeWulff 30:42 I got a little that from my little brother from time to time wasPalsh 30:47 asking them do that still. No, I remember loving the game because Zelda to was probably one of my favorite games because it was one of the few I had like I remember When Super Nintendo came out we had probably half a dozen actual games we rented most of the games. So if I got a game is usually for birthday or Christmas gift and that was it and I mean, Christmas gift we're talking Sears wish book you know there's a lot of stuff besides video games you had to get your hands on so so there's a lot of rentals I got and so when I actually owned Zelda two on NAS I think I got it at a yard sale with a bunch of others like Simon's quest, pro wrestling and something else and it was it was instantly because I owned it is my favorite. And then I played it extra and I was like this is better than I remembered. You know there's only like two years that's probably like 11 years old or something. But because of that I was like instantly a fan of linked to the past and when I played it, this is good. This is good. This gets better. We're getting stuck and getting last and ripping open that cheat sheet. You know, that cheat sheet. Never basically fold it up again because it was always left out. There's no way to You stopped it. You needed it every time. And you wished it was like pages and pages longer. But it was just really fun because it felt like a Zelda game for some reason, even though the only one I actually had experience with was Zelda two never played the first one at this point, and then this one came out I played I was like, okay, cool, played links awakening and not long after it came out, just like, this is great. And I remember buying it for $25 because it was like, not a greatest hits version. It wasn't quite they didn't have the greatest hits kind of thing or the game of the year, whatever. They called it back then. But it was probably around. I'd say 9796 something like that. And I found a copy for could have been earlier than that actually. But I remember finding copy of Walmart for $25 and just begging my dad Can I can I can. I managed to get it and so then I fell in love with it again. So it was just held a fun place. My heart I don't care for it as much now, but back then it it just blew me away because it was just such a good game.Jake 33:08 Yeah for me i think it's it's the influence its had on the rest of series is what I think draws me to liking it still even today like to go back to the music for a minute. Oh good.Palsh 33:18 Oh no, I was going to agree. I mean that's that's I think what makes me feel so good about is how much of an influence it is on games in the future because there's not a lot of game like it's not in my top 10 anymore, which is saying something because this is still a damn good game. The influence of head on future gaming I think it's, it's crazy, like direct or indirect. It's there,Jake 33:42 like the idea of the music even alone. I mean some of the themes that are famous throughout the franchise, things like Zelda lullaby or Gandalf theme, or Hyrule Castle, you hear bits and pieces of those themes in every Zelda game up to the Breath of the Wild even. So like that Music from this game is pretty much through through the entire series. And I mean the idea of the spin slash and then you know, various items and stuff. There's there's a boomerang, there's a hookshot and various sequels to the franchise. They're all kind of used in slightly different ways, especially in the 3d Zelda. But it all kind of comes back to like, the past has been the origin of a lot of that stuff. I mean, the original intent of Zelda. I like it's great. But I think it really just kind of cement the idea of an open world exploration and dungeons. But as links to the past that broke out into the idea of all these very unique items and Collectibles that really excited and exploring things. Right when we talk about Metro veiny is, I think, the past kind of belongs as part of the what we call the makeup or history of that kind of genre is part of like the past as well. It's very much like Metroid, right?Palsh 34:50 Yeah, it's it's like more of a kind of top down version of it as opposed to just like straight up platform, right? But it has the same elements to it, which I think That's probably what appeals to me still is because it has that that certain path you have to take and there's shortcuts you can do their stuff. You can go for extras, but you know, there's a there's a set path and there's a reason behind it.Jake 35:13 Well, and so like, I mean, it's not your top 10 for me, it's probably my top three. If you asked me what my top three favorite games are, it changes every month to be fair, but linked to the past like the past is always on top three. I really love that game quite a bit specially for the Super Nintendo. Again, I'm played as many of this NES games other people have but this one is great. I love this but I think mario world it's like an eight for me Link to the Past is like a two or three if not higher, it'sPalsh 35:42 great. And considering how much you like the Mario games that's that'sJake 35:45 my boy loves me my merioGP 35:50 think I'm culturally and in the history of gaming. The impact of Link to the Past is pretty undeniable. To the point that even if you don't like the game, You have to be able to say well yeah this is this is culturally significant in the gamer universe, right? SoWulff 36:09 you know what that's that's actually I think my brother's position on the franchise is most Zelda games he's not into. But he he like understands why people are into him but they're not for him. Granted right now he's going through the new links awakening and loving it so I don't know maybe that'll rekindle something in him. But yeah, he's he's not been a Zelda fan for most of hisJake 36:30 life. If he loves links awakening, then he'll he should like Link to the Past. I mean, I think links awakening is probably a better game is that remake is pretty good too. But links to the passes permission, same thing. But it's also for me, it's a it's a game I think is very timeless. We've mentioned before that's NES games or 16 bit era era for me will always look great, right? As nice as 3d graphics are, I can still sit down and play an old school 60 big game and love it. Sometimes Nintendo has that but For me, it's always been 16 bit. And Zelda game I still play today I play it quite often. But once you've kind of found all the secrets and you've, you know, you've mastered the route through the dungeons linked to the past, you know, it's not so fun to play anymore, at least in its current state. So, let's go back a couple years ago. I don't know if you guys fell for it. There's this huge fad of roguelike games. You know, raise your hand if you played it. roguelike right. Rogue Legacy was Oh, absolutely. Everybody's playing theWulff 37:30 legacy Binding of Isaac it The list goes onJake 37:33 bunny Isaac is very clearly influenced by Zelda, right? It's like smash TV by Zelda.Palsh 37:37 Oh, yeah.Jake 37:38 So read the idea of procedural games. It's really popular. And then the idea of ROM hacking or modding of old games has been around for a decade or more, right. And there's a lot of people who do amazing stuff with ROMs there's a few notable ROM hacks for like the past even there's one called parallel worlds. It might as well be the unofficial sequel to Link to the Past. It's It's a fantastic run. Mac, it's practically a brand new game. It's amazing. But what's really got me about a year and a half ago now is a group of folks had put together basically a randomizer. What they've done is they found a way to take the ROMs code and scramble various things to randomize it. I guess that's the name of why they call it randomizers. But they would take all the items in the game, and they would spread them around, right? So you wouldn't necessarily get a sword from your uncle and the first part of the, you know, castle dungeon, maybe you'll get a boomerang. Maybe you'll get you know, fuckton get five rupees, right, it was completely random. But the way that was ingenious about it is they would scramble the items. But they would put in logic to prevent you from getting screwed when you go into the dungeons because links to the past requires certain items in certain parts of the game. So they kind of adjusted the game's code and logic to account for that. So Link to the Past, and randomizers it's been a huge thing for me, last year and a half. It's one of my favorite things to do when I have free time is to play round of Zelda randomizer it's at the point now where I can use Beat one in under four hours, which I'm pretty proud of. Because it can be linked to the past fidella in usually two and a half if I'm feeling good. So the randomizer to me just brings this fresh of air to a game that I used to love as a kid. And now I love it even more now because I also love roguelikes I think they're great. The idea of procedural content in games has always been fascinating to me. Like I'm a big fan of Minecraft, but my issue with Minecraft was not of Zelda like influences in it right? You had sorts in Minecraft but you didn't have dungeons Really? I mean, you had kind of dungeons. You didn't really have fun combat but you had this great exploration element. I always wish that it had Zelda like elements. Zelda randomizer manaphy Minecraft but it has anything I want. So the rammers is great. So the recent additions actually they recently changed a bit so now you have boss shuffling so the bosses even change sometimes they can duplicate sums they won't I mean they added in power changes to the dungeons can look different now that have various characters appear to be as as a cosmetic thing. Probably important to polish they got rid of the heart beating Right. There's a lot of options built on the randomizer website that's just fantastic to check out. I asked you guys for the podcast and maybe just do a round or two of the round of the randomizer to see how it is. Pulse you want to start because I know you started a randomizer probably before I did actually,Palsh 40:14 I was probably spending just as much time trying to get the ROM hacked work because I'm tech inept. But once I got it going, I was like, okay, you know, I'm gonna give this a shot. I've seen a lot of friends playing it before and I was like, Okay, cool. The games. Kind of getting old for me. I'm just kind of sick of it. I called it the Mega Man to center my first because it's just like, everybody was playing a randomizer I never sounded like the first time I played the game on stream. People were like, Oh, it's nice to see someone actually playing the vanilla version. I was like, cool. Okay, right now, welcome. But the only time I've ever seen people playing randomizers up until now was watching people race each other or, you know, do PBS and stuff like those speed runners basically and ones that were that knew the game inside and Which is amazing, but it's just not for me. So I just I guess because of that I kind of had this automatic bias towards and I'm like, okay, I don't don't like it. You know, it's not for me. But when I tried it, I mean, I like the original game. It's nothing wrong with it as it's a great game, but just trying and the excitement of actually trying to think your way through it because oh, I don't have a sword. I didn't have a sword for the first like, 4550 minutes. And I was like, I'm in trouble. And everybody in chat was watching me play it and they were like, Oh my God. Oh, you got a hammer. Thank God, you know, like so there was this kind of tension that that wasn't there since I first played the game. And that was kind of cool, because it was like playing the game. You had similar feelings of playing the game for the first time, but still being familiar enough with it that it? You know, it hit the nostalgia button for you. So I gotta say I was very, very impressed with how much fun it actually was when I finally dreadJake 41:58 it. Yeah, like the highs and lows. are fantastic man playing that like you have 200 rupees you know you need to go to Kings or to get the flippers but in a randomizer you don't know what you're going to get. And I think every time I've played one I almost never get something useful from Zora it's almost always something stupid like arrows five rupees a cane something I don't want and it always curses name like every single time.Palsh 42:21 Yeah, I looked it up because I get the flippers It was like one of the first three things I've gotten. And then so I was running around trying to kill things with pots. Yeah, because pots pots and bushes because I couldn't actually swing at them with anything and then I ran out of bombs. So I had bombs and something else I'm still in the same game. I'm still trying to get the damn lantern so I'm kind of stuck. So I think right now I have to just find my way in the dark and I'm kind of scared to.Jake 42:47 I think wolf when I watched you play a little bit. I think you were stuck with the lamp as well trying to find one.Wulff 42:51 Okay, so I played two randomizers this week. The first one was Just the Link to the Past randomizer and right up front it was given me awesome item after awesome item like I had the Master Sword before I even made it into a dungeon. It was that crazy. I had the hammer I had, I had all sorts of stuff. What I what the game just would not give me was that lantern. So it kept it keeps cutting me off from various paths within dungeons. So I can only do so much because I can't do anything without the lantern. I have no book I have no lantern. I'm hosed as far as getting into donePalsh 43:44 it's just thinking of which he's not the Canadian one in here butWulff 43:47 but it's a pretty much off the table for me with that stuff. So today I decided to try for the first time the Super Metroid is linked to the past randomizer because both games I'm very familiar with It's been a long time for both of them, but I, I've played the crap out of them numerous times. Explain how they actually what they actually do. Like the randomizer for that. Yeah, so it puts items from both games in either game. And there are points within both the Zelda world and the Metroid world, where passing through a doorway will take you from one game to the other. You know, samas can find upgrades for Sammis or she can find upgrades for link or items for link or whatever. Same with link out in Hyrule, you can find items for Sammis and so it's, it can be frustrating, especially since with my experience, let's let's This one was less kind to me. Let's Let's start with that. I was super excited right off the bat. You know, it starts you in Metroid. It starts to in Super Metroid. So I jump into the game. Run around on Zabbix for about, I don't know, five minutes you can do anything. And then you just zPalsh 45:10 was it z? No, I No, no no I just call it jeebs cuz was Elvis doesn't sound right to me stillWulff 45:15 number one told us I want to say it was Eric. Someone told us how to pronounce it properly because of other pronounced it.Palsh 45:22 Yeah. And I forget what it is.Wulff 45:25 Yeah it was I went to go through a door and all of a sudden boom I walk out of a house in High Rollers link and I'm like, Okay, cool. So I'll start exploring all sorts of stuff here. I know this world I know there's a ton of treasure chests I can get even with nothing because you have no sword. You have no nothing when you start the game. I start running around. It probably took me about shut up Google. It took me about it probably took me about two hours. To even find the Morph Ball after getting to link so I was reaching for straws trying to look everywhere I could and I think I probably found the last chest I could obtain with the items I had that was finally they Morph Ball and then I could run over into play as Sam us again. Got to do a whole bunch of stuff there. ended up getting my way to norfair struggling my way to norfair let's be honest, because I didn't have a whole lot of help with her. I got no health upgrades for samas finally get to norfair went through a door boom I'm back in high role on Death Mountain. I was like yes, okay, I can do more stuff. And again, I'm still linked running around without a sword. I'm killing things with the hookshot or bombs. That's all I've got to kill things. And most things don't die from the hookshot they just get stuck so I it was a mess. After three and a half hours of gameplay, I finally found a sword for linkPalsh 47:00 Three Okay, I don't feel bad about my 15 minutes now.Wulff 47:04 No, it was and then I had to call it for the day. But that was I will be going back to that one. Because now it's now it's like I have to it's a challenge that has been accepted.Jake 47:19 yet. The first time I did that I've only been at like twice and it usually takes me around 1516 hours. It's, but I've also I love Super Metroid, but I don't know where all the hidden stuff is. Whereas Zelda I know very well. But the few things I'm probably missing in Zelda and Super Nintendo or Super Metroid is probably what screws me through those randomizers but it's really fun.Wulff 47:40 But that randomizer playing it is really what has settled it in my mind that Yeah, Metroid and Zelda are a lot more alike than I think people realize.Jake 47:51 So same with the metro videos as a genre, like the two games are very, very similar in that regard. It's great.Palsh 47:58 Yeah, I never realized until Till recently actually have similar those games actually are so, but first I'm like What the hell are you getting on with you know, combining those two games that couldn't be more different now I'm like, okay, I dig it. I'm scared to play it. But I did.Jake 48:15 I do love wolf how you got screwed but the two hardest to deal breaker game items in those games is the Morph Ball and the lamp. If you don't have those, those games become very difficult to get through.Wulff 48:26 Speaking of which, I still have no lamp in that Super Metroid Zelda randomizer.Jake 48:32 So they do let you do a few. I don't have a speed round tricks. There's a few glitches you can do to get through certain parts or even just tricks like for like the past. There are people who memorized the layers of the dark rooms so you can get through them. I'm not one of them. The game's coded so you don't need to do that. There's left somewhere. But I've seen people just skip it by going to the dark rooms. And then for Super Metroid. Lava diving is probably the big one, right? Because there's you The fire the various various suit virus suit where we say that the presses against that a lot of damage. Yeah, so that's you do need it in Super Metroid. But there's a couple of rooms where if you have enough health, you can still dip in the lava proceed and get what you want and come back out. And that can actually give you a bit of a shortcut and certain certain circumstances. Again the code it's you don't need to do that. But it's helpful if you kind of do those contracts.Wulff 49:24 However, I feel like this can be a very dangerous slippery slope for me I think I'm going to start probably spending more time playing these randomizers and now I'm interestedJake 49:35 Well, I made the mistake See howWulff 49:36 I feel after I beat one but right now I'm I'm totally enticed by the the ideaJake 49:45 of doing a randomizer race and the two other guys I was racing against kicked my ass because they were doing the dark room dark rooms with lamp because they knew the layout because they're that good. And it was hilarious. But he also watched a few Zelda races randomly racers What do you think?GP 50:01 Well, I, I watched them wanting to kind of do the homework as we say, or do the research before playing a randomizer because I know everybody else has played him this week to do the research. But again, having only played each game Link to the Past and Super Metroid once and earlier this year, I quickly realized I'm not going to be playing those randomizers because I don't really know either of the games well enough to be able to formulate strategy. So the first video that I watch, and that was the dual game randomizer. At first, I'm like, this is going to suck because the guys who were racing actually as a race, first thing they found were or God or Silver Arrows, so not being familiar with the game, or randomizer something. Oh, this is just a new way to cheese, these games, but it was almost like the commentator was directly talking to me and my psyche, because it goes that's a great item, but it's not worth shit if you don't have the bow and arrow and you can't do anything the sword or the morphable and I'm like oh my god I've completely underestimated what this is. And so I was between minutes five and six so I think in time I may try to go and learn the vanilla versions so that I could do a randomizer but I'm I feel like I'm still so far off because the guys playing you know as they're getting items in their mind you can just tell Okay, what can I go do now what can I cannot you know, what can't I go do now and the commentators as well are saying I think they're gonna go to lower norfair and I'm like, I don't even know which game that's from know your shit. I don't think I'm sitting here thinking is there a Mario randomizer is there you know is there a randomizer I can try first. So I'm there is dipping my toes into the shallow end of the randomizer pool I can tell you the one thing I wish they had already fast forward button Don't Don't get me started Don't get me started horrible joke and I don't mean that but like I said I completely underestimated how much I thought I would like it. It did give me an appreciation for how little I know about these games. But that did not make the experience of watching the races any less fun.Jake 52:29 Yeah, a good color commentary makes all the difference for watching a speed runner race especially with the randomizers because if they know the ins and outs and explain things It's like watching a basketball game or for me a football game. I know jack about football. But if they commentator can explain what's going on in a click away it's it's all the difference.GP 52:46 Oh yeah, if the if the video was on mute, I wouldn't have lasted 20 minutes but being pulled in and and watching how the two different guys because they're playing the same randomizer like all the locations are the same thing for each racer. But the way in which they strategize in their head ensures that they just route it differently even though they have, you know, I don't know where steps that but it was incredibly enthralling and entertaining. And like I said, I wish I'd had more experience with both those games. So I, you know, I would be able to do them,Wulff 53:22 but we'll get there in time. I want to say it was summer of 2018 that I, when I was doing laundry, cleaning the house, whatever I would put on those selda races because they had a huge tournament that lasted a couple weeks. Oh, man, those were so cool to watch to just check in on them while I was doing stuff around the house, folding laundry, whatever. And, you know, I'm folding three different people's laundry while sorting them and all that so it's given me something to do while I'm just folding clothes, hanging them up, whatever. It is so cool to just see how they play so differently. I watched so many races, it's ridiculous. And these people were like, you'd hear the commentator like, well, this guy's made the choice to go here. And this guy's made the choice to go there. And that's a big gamble. But if it pays off, it'll be huge. And you know, you see him take that chance and all of a sudden, boom, he's way ahead of the first guy because he took that gamble. It's ridiculous just to see these strategies play out.Jake 54:19 Yeah, it's almost like a competitive Sudoku. Right? It's or competitive crossword it's like a logic puzzle that people are figuring out as quickly as possible. But far more exciting, right?Palsh 54:30 Yeah to terrible math to even do a regular Sudoku thing.Jake 54:35 But you know, I was bad at randomizers and and being into it took me forever to beat my first plane Zelda one and the Zelda Metroid crossover one, I still struggle with half the time. But up you're saying that you didn't want to try the randomizers because, you know, you've only played each game once you don't know where everything is. On the one hand, though, that can be fun as well because that comes back to the thing that makes the series great which is exploration right. Playing the Zelda Metroid one especially, it's a whole double world out there of just exploring, right? Is he finished it or not, maybe. But it's fun just playing it, and trying to explore the various nooks and crannies for the items and see how they work together. I think it's great, even if you're not familiar with the base games, butWulff 55:16 there's also the different tiers, you can set the randomizer to where it's not throwing all the rupees around and everything. If it just swaps the items, you know, or something like that. You can you can make it lessGP 55:28 crazy. See, that's the thing I don't want to I don't want to go training wheels and I know that's 100% 100% ego warplessUnknown Speaker 55:37 Right. Yeah.GP 55:39 But I do like that's the thing is by the time I attempted I want to be knowledgeable and I get what you're saying subject and maybe maybe that's enough to change my mind and just dive in. Instead of like I said, Wade in the shallow waters, but pretty pretty much my only my only confidence with that that set of two games is that I could properly Identify, which I didn't goes in which world. And beyond that I really, it just seems like such a massive undertaking.Jake 56:08 It's still, I still want my most favorite things in recent years. I've always loved retro games even, even now in the current next gen systems. I still like going back to the 16 bit era, but to see people so passionately about randomizers and like ROM hacking and just bring a new life to these games, I think is just fantastic. Well,GP 56:24 and you kind of said something like that earlier, which is what gives me the field goods. And lets me know that retro will always be around and that is people are coming up with new ways to play the old games. And so long as we have things like that, I mean, retro. There's no reason for it to die out.Unknown Speaker 56:44 That's a good final thought. Yes. All right. Well, I think we're hitting our timeGP 56:49 and like I said, I just, I picked and picked on air. T moPalsh 56:56 again. Do you wash your hands this time? Nope.Unknown Speaker 57:01 I see no reason it's good time to endWulff 57:03 with a sentimentGP 57:05 in fatik Nope. Why would I start now? I mean come on.Jake 57:09 Alright folks. Well JP we'll start with you. Where can folks find you?GP 57:13 Yeah, I'm right here other than presby to cancel I had to go from the peak of my my prowess with my thoughts to the lowest of the trough. So there we go. No other than press me to cancel you can find me on the retro therapy which is on Twitch Twitter. We got YouTube we got Instagram all the classics.Palsh 57:36 Yeah, the retro therapy. And Paul shovel you Where can folks find you? On GP so my answer because I was seriously but saying you can find me right here. Now. Now I have nothing witty to say. So you can find me here and sometimes on Twitch.GP 57:52 You can you can answer first it'll be fine.Palsh 57:55 Now that's too much trouble now.Jake 57:57 filming this episode need a lot editing. Sorry. Okay,GP 58:01 mostly just because the discord I think discordsJake 58:05 Yes, we'll just we'll just blame it all on Discord. We're will help people find you.Wulff 58:12 I can be found again here. And on Twitter and Twitch at werewolf w ar e w ULFFPalsh 58:22 sounds like a radio station who carryWulff 58:28 cartridge with a wolf like as a wolfJake 58:33 and we're commanded to live here on Radio presby to cancel you listening to us right here and my name is sick Jake you can find me on Twitter or sometimes on Twitch like polish. And you've been listening to presby to cancel. Special thanks for music go to Arthur the ancient found on Soundcloud or the last nation on YouTube. For more episodes, please visit our website presby kancil.com as well Feel free to like or subscribe at Apple, iTunes, Google podcasts or anywhere else you'd like to listen to your favorite shows. As always, thank you. This has been an ad again.Special thanks to Arthur The Last Ancient on soundcloud for our podcast theme. For updates and more episodes please visit our website www.pressbtocancel.com, or find us on Twitter @pressbtocancel and Instagram @pressbtocancel.

Quick show notes Our Guest: Brian Rinaldi What he'd like for you to see: Flashback Conference His JAMstack Jams: Stackbit | Netlify | Hugo Other Technology Mentioned Jekyll Transcript Bryan Robinson 0:02 Hello, everyone, welcome to another episode of That's My JAMstack, the podcast where we ask the pressing question, what's your jam in the JAMstack? I'm your host, Bryan Robinson and on this week's episode, we sit down with Brian Rinaldi, a developer advocate for Stackbit. Bryan Robinson 0:21 Brian, thanks for being on the show today. Brian Rinaldi 0:23 Thanks. Thanks, Bryan for having me. Bryan Robinson 0:26 The "Bri(y)an" episode. Go ahead and tell it tell us a little bit about yourself what you do for work what you do for fun. Brian Rinaldi 0:33 So I am a developer advocate at Stackbit. So you know, I get to mess around with all the new stuff and I get to do all kinds of JAMstack things and call it work and experiment with it, and write articles about it and speak about it. So it's, it's a lot of fun. But for fun, let's see. I'm mostly I'd say I'm a gamer. I'm a console gamer. So I am on either my PlayStation my Xbox or the Switch playing something Bryan Robinson 1:06 What were you playing right now? Brian Rinaldi 1:08 I've been hooked on Apex legends for for a little while and that's kind of my main game but I still play Overwatch regularly. That's another one that is one of my longtime faves. Bryan Robinson 1:19 I've only ever played on the free weekends they've done throughout the throughout the life of it, but I've always enjoyed it. Brian Rinaldi 1:25 That's an overwatch I'm assuming. Bryan Robinson 1:27 Yeah, because Apex legend is free, isn't it? Brian Rinaldi 1:30 Yeah, it's free. Yeah. So yeah, it's one of those. What do you call? What do they call them? Like fortnite? Battle Royale? Yeah. Bryan Robinson 1:40 Well, very cool. Very cool. So obviously, this isn't a gaming podcast, although I could very easily talk for a long time about that. Brian Rinaldi 1:46 Yeah, me too. Bryan Robinson 1:49 So let's talk about the JAMstack a little bit. So what was your entry point into the JAMstack? Or if it was long enough ago, I guess static site generators and that sort of thing. Yeah. Brian Rinaldi 1:56 It was definitely long enough ago. I was probably an early adopter. I wasn't part of the beginning, but I was pretty early on. It was probably about six years ago that I really got heavily into static site. It's a bit of a funny story how I started. Brian Rinaldi 2:17 Because I mostly started because I was needed to launch the site for work. I had just gotten recently gotten a role at a company called till Eric, which is now got bought by progress software. And we were going to launch a new developer focused site called Telerik Developer Network. And I wanted to to avoid some issues of competitiveness between WordPress and our current CMS solution that we sold. I wanted to just launch the whole thing using Jekyll because I knew some Jekyll and I've been experimenting with it and I got a no. Brian Rinaldi 3:01 So nobody bought into this idea. And then we ended up using WordPress. But I kind of took that as inspiration to dive really, really deeply into disproving how wrong they were in making this decision. And it led to me presenting all over the place about static sites writing a lot of articles about static sites, you know, getting involved early on in the whole community. I wrote a report for O'Reilly about five years ago about static sites. And then I wrote a book with my friend Raymond Camden, about static sites I was about four years ago, I guess now, three, four years ago. Anyway, it's all been, you know, so I was Yeah, I was early on involved in that and, and have been, you know, dedicated to it since even though it's not until recently after joining Stackbit it was isn't necessarily part of my work day job. Bryan Robinson 4:02 And I feel like that's how there's a lot of great developer technology origin stories. It's like, it's like I had to prove them as wrong as I could. Brian Rinaldi 4:11 Yeah, exactly. It's It's definitely been a part of my, throughout my career, this has come up multiple times. Bryan Robinson 4:18 Cool. And I also didn't know that you would, you would partner with Raymond on a book. So what book was that you said about four years ago? Brian Rinaldi 4:25 Yeah, I think it's like three I think it came out like three years ago now. And we but we started running about four years ago. It's called Working with Static Sites. It's I think the only thing other than you know until Netlify released their thing through a O'Reilly it was the only book early had on the topic. We're we're hopeful that we may even get to revisit that because I wouldn't necessarily recommend it to anybody who's starting out today. The landscape has changed. So much since the time we wrote it, that I mean, a lot of things will still work but it wouldn't necessarily be the most recommended way of doing things today. Bryan Robinson 5:12 I got you and as a side note to all the listeners out there, be sure to go back I think it's episode three Raymond Camden was on the show, so be sure to check that out as well. Brian Rinaldi 5:20 My arch nemesis Bryan Robinson 5:24 Good natured sparring there? Brian Rinaldi 5:26 Oh, he and I go way back. So it's Yeah, yeah. Hey, we've been friends. Well, not to give not to give too much away. But since we both did ColdFusion Bryan Robinson 5:39 So obviously, Jekyll was kind of that the entry point and into the world but fast forward, you know, six years now. There's been an explosion of all sorts of stuff. Yeah, I assume Stackbit is high up on your on your list of passions in the JAMstack or what are you playing with or are enjoying right now? Brian Rinaldi 5:54 You know, One of the things I like about Stackbit. It is The ability to just; I've been passionate about the topic of, of the editing experience in, in the whole JAMstack for years. Even when I would speak about this, you know, four years ago, you know, it was basically like, "Listen, I know you all think markdown is super easy. And well, you could just you know, if I'm going to launch this site, and I'm going to give it to some editor, I'll just teach the markdown, it's just a few tags, you know, just a little bit of markup. It's really easy." Brian Rinaldi 6:31 And I'm like, but then if you want to do this in markdown, can you do that? No, you can't. So you have to do HTML if you want to do that. And I'm like, and so this now I got to teach you markdown plus HTML, which is not easy. And the whole experience has never been very smooth from an editing person, you know, content editors perspective. Brian Rinaldi 6:52 And I think so one of the things I've been passionate about is now with headless CMS and, or even like, you know, things like Like NetlifyCMS, which has kind of grown into a really, you know, great project. I think that's changed. And we now, you know, we now have the tools to make a really good editing experience with the JAMstack, which to me, that brings that brings us to the possibility of being able to, to, you know, bring this widespread, like, make make the adoption grow dramatically, because that has been one of the things that held the whole system back is, is this ability like even even now, like, oh, OK, I can change it on the CMS uncomfortable with the CMS side of it. Brian Rinaldi 7:40 But then, and then I make that change, I submit and then it's like, Okay, let me sit there and Is it is it live? Is it live? Is it live? Is it live, right? And then it's like, okay, it's like, oh crap, I screwed up. When we go back, you know, we fix that typo is alive, you know, and repeat the whole process. So having been a part of marketing teams and in content focused teams I know like the struggles those that that though they have with these kind of tools and I think we're finally making that transition out of that. Brian Rinaldi 8:13 But besides that I mean honestly I'm gonna I guess you might say old school kind of guy ice I still like Jekyll I still use it. I'd say most of the sites I build are still are in Hugo and I love Hugo and I've been using it for years and I maintain a like a bunch of sites that are built in Hugo. Bryan Robinson 8:36 I said I feel like on the podcast we've been pretty pretty much 50/50 from like that methodology of like the Hugo Jekyll 11ty, the kind of hand HTML to the browser and then 5050 on the other hand of doing Gatsby Gridsome those kind of React or Vue based situation so you kind of fall a little bit a little bit further on the HTML side of things on that on that more static static site. Brian Rinaldi 8:59 More static-y that yeah, I mean, I wouldn't call it more static, I think, you know, you can still do all those things. It's just, you know, it's done a different way. Right. So, you know, one of the things I love about Hugo is just, like everything run so quickly, and I'm able, like, I feel like there's a lot of power in the template writing. And that I can dig into, like, you know, things that, that I I don't have to mess with any frameworks or anything, right. Like, I can build it with a framework. I could not build it with a framework. I'm free to do whatever. It'll work. Yeah. Bryan Robinson 9:37 Whatever you're feeling on that given day. You're good to go. So so out of curiosity, you talked about the the marketing team and that refresh, refresh refresh refresh methodology. Is that constant the inspiration behind that stack bit live thing that the Brian Rinaldi 9:54 Right that's exactly it. So we have like, we already put out a control center that Will that you can get for free right now like you can just add it, if you're on Netlify, you can just add it to any Netlify site. And what it'll do is it'll automatically pick up like if a bill has been triggered, regardless of how that's been triggered. So like, you know, if it's been triggered by the CMS, or it's been triggered by a, you're checking in something to the GitHub repository, like it'll, it'll automatically pick that up, notify you and then you can watch as the build happens. And I'll tell you, okay, it's done. You can check the logs and so on. So that's part of like, that's the beginnings of that whole stack that live concept that we presented at at JAMstackConf in San Francisco. But it goes beyond that to whole editing experience that's going to allow you to edit things in line on the page. Bryan Robinson 10:45 Is that going to be as as agnostic in static site generator and CMS level as all the rest of it is or Yes, okay. Brian Rinaldi 10:53 Right. That's, that's kind of one of the keys I think, to their we're obviously not the only people doing these kind of things. So One of the keys to our solution, I think is that, well, it it doesn't matter which static site generator which CMS for the most part you're using, we will we can support that. Where there are some other great solutions out there, but they tend to be fixed towards a particular methodology. , Bryan Robinson 11:17 Cool. So, so you're using obviously JAMstack very hard professionally now, it is legitimately your job. You said, you get to play with all these cool JAMstack technologies nowadays. Yeah. Are you still exploring personally like outside you have anything running that way? Or do you get to just do everything professionally now and do it during the day? Brian Rinaldi 11:35 You know, I still do. I still do personally because all the sites I do outside of work, even our jam stack. So like I run a bunch of online like meetups every month, as well as like online events and in person events that I kind of do on the side. And that site is all built in ego and I'm continuously updating that and maintaining that as well. Bryan Robinson 11:59 So you're running a meetup groups and then online meetups. Brian Rinaldi 12:04 So I run Yeah, I do run meetup groups and I run but I run an online meetup. It's it's at like CFE.dev, if you go there. They I run a number of different things through that, like online trainings and stuff. But I have a free monthly meetup. That's for developers. It's on a variety of topics. Like, I don't, it's not JAMstack specific. It's just developer focused. Right? Bryan Robinson 12:26 Okay. Very cool. So what would it be? Would it be fair to say that Stackbit is your jam in the JAMstack? Are there other things that we want to kind of dive into in that way? Brian Rinaldi 12:37 Uh, you know, Stackbit, I'm, I'm still digging into. One of the things I find about it like, I've been using Netlify since honestly, since the very very beginning. And, and I've I've always been a fan of it, but I felt like they've been releasing a lot of things I never got to dig into some really having a lot of fun trying to mess with like service. Was Functions and our like I did a whole post about Identity and stuff like that, which I hadn't really gotten the mess with. I feel like there's a lot of pieces of nightlife I that I haven't haven't ever touched because you know, I could do what I wanted to do very easily but I never had an excuse to get dig into them a little further. And I'm having a lot of fun doing that too. Bryan Robinson 13:22 Cool. There's almost like ancillary to the JAMstack. Things that you really need the JAMstack to do. Those pieces are there for you. Bryan Robinson 13:29 So I'm also curious about what your actual jam is your musical jam. What's your musical taste? What are you listening to while you work while you play that? Brian Rinaldi 13:39 Oh, yeah. So So I've a lot of what I listened to is it's very electronic. So funny enough, Raymond Camden, I do this whole we have a newsletter. We put out I supposed to be bi weekly, but it's really kind of occasional, like every two or three weeks called CodaBreakers. Where we pick like New Music So I'm like really kind of focused on picking new songs all the time. I'd say lately my jam would be if I could say anybody in particular so so my latest jam like my jam lately has been LCD Sound System and which is not like new new stuff, but I I don't know why I've like rediscovered them and realize like, I'm like why did I not love them as much as I did when this the songs of some of these songs were newer? And and I've just really been digging that but, but other ones like I've really been into, what would you call it chill out music like Tom Cruise I've been. Caroline pull a check and if you ever heard of her, I've been listening to her cigarettes after sex. They're awesome. Very loungy sounding stuff. So yeah, I mean, mostly, mostly obscure, kind of music had tending towards electronic Bryan Robinson 15:00 And will we be able to know what your what your jam is on a on a bi weekly basis by following the CodaBreakers newsletter Brian Rinaldi 15:07 Yeah yeah so it's codabreakers.rocks and it is a jam stack site rebuilt it it's it's it's amazing it's you won't you won't believe it it's it's it's really impressive a single page but but it does actually he built it I mean it's nothing too exciting but he did actually tied into the MailChimp API. So every time we we just send a new newsletter it rebuilds and it it adds the newsletter to the list and everything. So things like that, Bryan Robinson 15:36 And is there anything that you would like to promote what you're doing? What's going on that you want to get out in the open? Brian Rinaldi 15:43 Sure. I mean, the big thing one of the big things I'm doing besides my work at stack bait is I'm running a conference here in Orlando in February. In check net is one of my sponsors. So we've got like Divya from Netlify is coming to speak. It's called Flashback Conference. flashback.dev, it's gonna be a lot of fun. I've got Kyle Simpson as a keynote, Estelle Weyl while as a keynote, I've got Ray's going to be speaking a lot of other really great people. So that would be kind of the thing I'm most excited about and what I'm working on, you know, when I'm not working for, for work, that's what I'm working on my free time. Bryan Robinson 16:22 Conference organizing is not easy. Brian Rinaldi 16:24 No, I've done a lot of them. I've been doing like 10 years or so. And I've done a lot of them. And my wife, my wife's always like, I don't know why you put yourself through this. You stress out every single time and then you're like, Oh, it's going to be a failure. It's gonna talk and then it all goes well. And then you start the process all over. Bryan Robinson 16:42 I've never organized the conference, but I've done a yearly hackathon. And until I get that, that like 10th ticket sold, I'm just like, no one's coming. Yes. And then we get like 100 Plus, and we're good. Brian Rinaldi 16:52 It's always like that in everybody waits to like the last two to three weeks to buy their tickets. And until then you're like, this is going to be a failure. Bryan Robinson 17:00 And you buy all your all your food and stuff, you know, for hundreds of people and you just know you're gonna have too much. Bryan Robinson 17:07 Well, I appreciate you, you taking the time and talking with us today. Hope to see you more stuff coming from stack but especially around that live stuff soon. Brian Rinaldi 17:13 Thanks. Thanks, Bryan. Appreciate it. Bryan Robinson 17:16 And as always, I want to thank you, our amazing listeners, knowing the folks are listening and enjoying the show keeps us coming back week after week. If you want to support that's my jam stack. Be sure to give it a light, favorite or review in your podcast app of choice. Until next time, keep things jamming.Transcribed by https://otter.aiIntro/outtro music by bensound.com

"If everyone else is doing it, there must be something to it, right?" We all tend to easily get carried away by listening to other people without first analyzing things on our own. But, should we keep blindly following the crowd? In this episode, Dean talks about how the traditional way of doing things might actually be compromising your system in your business and why questioning yourself why you're doing things a certain way is very important in getting your desired results. ----- Automated Transcript Below: Dean Soto 0:00 Hey, this is Dean Soto founder of freedom in five minutes calm and pro slim, calm prosulum.com. And today we're here with another freedom in five minutes podcast. Today's topic, is this getting better results by doing things differently than everyone else. That more coming up. Oh, well, well, well, we are back with another episode. This is absolutely fantastic. Wonderful. I'm out on a walk with Luna. Tomorrow I'm going to be traveling And this wasn't just with me, there is somebody in our family, I'm not going to in our extended family. I'm not going to name any names, but they're very near and dear to us. Who didn't who was not on board with natural remedies for sicknesses, eating healthy, all of that other jazz. And it's interesting because this person, this person, I, you know, I would expect it to be but, but they grew up in a Oh, Scott spiral spider web tarantulas are coming out now. So that should be interesting. Anyway, um, so they, so it was interesting because but they lived in a generation where it was Word doctors are were very trusted. Right? You trusted your experts. It's funny because there was, it was an anti authoritarian generation of the 60s and 70s. That for whatever reason now trust all the all of the authorities. I've never found I've never understood why that is, but it just is. It's It's such a weird, weird thing. But anyway, all that being said, it was this anti generation that love the anti anti authority generation that now loves authority. And so, so this person had some medical issues going on high cholesterol, very, very high blood pressure, all these things that we're going to possibly lead to some really bad stuff. So, so they went to the doctor and the doctors prescribed them pills right. Doctors and there's nothing wrong with doctors at all. I'm not I'm not I'm not against doctors, right? I'm not against doctors what I am against is the blind, the blind, Hey, take this pill for this take this pill for that take this pill for this you have this doesn't send them okay? Take that pill for that just kind of the blind throwing of Big Pharma and you know, where the doctors are just, you know, Hawking these pills because it's kind of the latest and greatest thing. Right now, I'm not going to get into any type of political discussion or anything like that, but I just found this interesting because so the doctor did that exact same thing. Right. The doctor went and did the whole did the whole a. Okay, you have all of this stuff. Okay, here's these pills. Well, she was supposed to take these pills. I want to say for a couple months. Before they, before they got a checkup, she went back and got a checkup. And when and also, when I just totally lost my train of thought I was looking at an anthill. Anyway, you get to lose your train of thought too. That's the way how this works if I lose my train of thought you lose it too. Alright, so, so anyway, she, so she's taking these pills there, it's going good, it's going well and and so on so forth. And, you know, it's not making her feel very good. It's making her feel kind of crappy. And so my, my wife's like, well, you should, you should take this for this and you should take this for this and you should take all these natural remedies for all of the things that she is that this person is complaining about, and is going to this doctor about Unknown Speaker 5:56 and Dean Soto 6:00 This and so long story short, this person's checkup comes and keep in mind this person's like Yeah, yeah yeah okay yeah sure sure sure. In her in her very sweet loving way she's like yeah I don't know I don't know about that which craft that's just silly that's great craft there's no that's oh yeah you're gonna eat this magical Berry and this berries gonna make you not sick anymore huh okay what do you call this berries? blueberries Oh what a book? Yeah right so anyway, time goes by she finally actually starts listening to my wife and does the natural thing because that because the pills are making her feel like crap and once she does hmm after a while she's starting to feel pretty good pretty nice Everything is going great. Then after that, what happens? Hmm I'm, I go to my doctor, this is what happens. She goes to her doctor. And lo and behold, all of her all of the things that they were measuring for are perfect. And the doctor doctor literally looks at her and goes, huh, I was gonna raise your prescription like literally, this guy goes to her and tells her that without even looking at her without even looking at anything, he had already planned to raise her prescription. I was going to raise your prescription essentially because I know this thing, you know, as people were on this, that's all good. That's what normally happens. But uh, but everything Great keep doing what you're doing. So we, we get a text from this person saying I am a believer, it works. The natural stuff works is amazing yada yada, yada, yada, yada. All right. And so this because this person decided not to listen to the authorities not to do what everyone else was doing not to just blindly take whatever it is the authority wanted her to take. She is doing amazing and feeling amazing. So what's the point of this? Is it that we shouldn't listen to people who are in authority or or know more than us know. However, You have to use your own brain. But more importantly more importantly you there there are things but look, if you were to go is saying you've been eating like crap. So you've been eating like crap for years and you got sick and you want to start taking natural remedy the likelihood of it it actually working is going to be very low. The natural remedy for the most part, why? Because your system itself has been compromised. Okay, if you're eating like crap if you're basically eating dog food from places like McDonald's and, and Burger King and all these other places or even just half of foods, we'll just call them half foods where they have you know, all this other crap filler that's inside of them, your gut, your your stomach is being compromised, which then compromises everything else in your system. Ok. So the beauty of the, the the pill industry is that all the symptoms you have these pills are able to essentially mask or alleviate the symptoms, these nasty feelings that you're doing, but at the same time, everything's still compromised. Okay? And so here's the real point behind this is that in a lot of ways, your system not just your health system, but your system in your business is compromised. You have been led to believe that your business should run a certain way you should hire certain people you should bring on new software you should have this type of margin, you should have all of these things because that's what everybody else does or what everybody else has. And so immediately your system is compromised. And so when you start listening, because that is the traditional way of doing it, if you run a restaurant, this is how you run a restaurant. If you have a franchise, this is how you run a franchise. If you have a packing company, this is how you run a packing company. If you have that in your mind, and you just blindly follow then you end up into areas. One, you end up being like everybody else. Which maybe in some circumstances, that's great. If everyone else's a trillion they're great. Doesn't happen quite often. Or you end up dead or depressed. Your Business wise right now, in your life, in your business, what are you doing? That is the result of simply listening to other people. No research on your own, no innovation on your own. It's simply because that's the way it is. I challenge you to relook at everything that you're doing in your business and ask yourself why am I doing this? Why am I doing this? I have a friend who is also a client. They met from Cameron Orland supply His biggest competitor has hundreds of people. Hundreds of people he does close in revenue. And it's him, his wife, few sales people, his VSA that he has from freedom five minutes and personal. And a couple of drivers. That's it. That's it. And he rivals his competition because he didn't follow what they said or what the interest he says. You need to follow. Dean Soto freedom in five minutes. Go check out freedom in five minutes calm or check out the master class. There. Go check out everything on there and it may just change the way you look at your business. Alright, freedom environments calm. I will see you in the next freedom in five minutes episode

Press B to Cancel... evolution! After 8 episodes we get all poetic about our earliest Pokemon memories, and discuss the inspiration for our podcast name. Episode Transcription: The below is a machine based transcription of this episode. Sorta like Skynet if it was 2 years old, and wanted a cookie. Take it with a grain of salt. Wulff 0:00 This week on presby to cancel, we discussed the evolution of Pokemon Gotta catch them all. AgainWulff 0:29 Hello everybody and welcome to presby to cancel I figured eight episodes deep might be time to jump into a topic reflecting the podcasts namesake presby to cancel so, with that in mind, we're going to be talking about Pokemon today to cancel that evolution. Wait what?Palsh 0:48 Sorry, I just had to do that I was trying to think somethingWulff 0:50 witty, Ching goo Jayco magic keys make you feel all better?Palsh 0:55 We ran. Okay, so here's our intro You may continueJake 1:03 or be very proud of. SoWulff 1:06 today's episode, I know I normally do things a little bit more structured, but today I'm going in a little bit more freewheeling. So we're going to discuss things a little differently. But I'd like to start with Pokemon beginning in the West. So I remember seeing I had kind of gotten into import games and stuff like that shortly before Pokemon released in the West. And so I remember seeing Pocket Monsters merge at import stores and stuff there was a place I used to go called game cave in Southern California. I don't think it's around anymore, but I I'd go there once every month or two and I just see all this pocket monsters crap wall scrolls, stickers, cards, you name it was there and I was like, What the heck is this and they tried to explain it to me and I just didn't get it. Bought a year or two later, it finally released in the West. And I remember seeing a new story on TV about Topeka, Kansas, changing its name for a day to Topeka to Kansas. Nintendo, I'm guessing threw a big sack of money at Topeka, Kansas and said, Hey, we want to change the name just for a day have a big event there. Kick off the Pokemon North American events in Topeka and they were like, Yes, please. So they have people I'm pretty sure they had pretty sure they had people dressed in Pikachu outfits and they had the, the fleet of 10 Volkswagen beetles done up like Pikachu that said, gotta catch them all on the side. And from there, they just started sending those beetles out to everywhere in North America to do the events. Do any of you recall that at all?Jake 2:55 No, but I just find out where they didn't do. Topeka, Kansas because took a piece of Cute little Pokemon.Wulff 3:02 But I think topi was generation toJake 3:05 shows you the extent of my knowledge.GP 3:08 Actually, I do remember this as somebody who lives about two hours south from I love that we're saying Topeka. Sorry, everybody in Kansas says just tipica like it's to a PK, but it's, it's spelt Topeka, but it's like Quebec or Quebec. It's to be here. But I love that you say, it's like saying Comanche instead of Comanche. Anyway, doesn't matter. Gotcha. No, I remember this and trying to figure out why the heck I should care about it. Because it got, you know, like you said, national coverage and all this stuff. It's a big deal. And I just remember, how do you wanna say it looked and seemed so bizarre? Yeah, it seemed like not just the people my age were getting into it. But it was these adults, you know, wondering are not wandering around but stomping around and, and these these thematic and brightly colored anime type shirts. And to that point, all I'd ever really seen of like anime and then that kind of stuff was Dragon Ball. So I'm like, why are we not having a Dragon Ball Z day? What the hell this picture? But yeah, so I remember the event from Topeka, but I just remember being, like, bewildered and confused.Wulff 4:20 Yeah, I was just I was not into it at all when I had first heard about it and then I saw this new story. And I was like, and I lived in Vegas at the time, so it got that far at least. I was like, What the hell is Pokemon like, why is this such a big deal? And then I think I had Nintendo a Nintendo Power subscription at the time. So when my Nintendo Power came in, they started like really hamming it up with Pokemon and everything. And I was like, Hmm, okay, I can see. And then I got a little curious and I think because of the craze, my parents decided to get a copy for both me and my Brother interestingly enough, they got us both blue.Palsh 5:04 I was about to ask do they get the same color each? Because that would be justWulff 5:08 yeah. So we yeah we had a we had a house without a few Pokemon but I remember I was so into that game at the time I played the crap out I was playing it on Super Gameboy mostly because I I lived in Vegas I had lived there for a short while didn't really have any friends so I wasn't wasn't playing it at school. I just played it at home so I didn't care. I got super into it. I I'm pretty sure I beat it. Within a couple weeks, like caught new to everything. Or maybe I missed my chance to catch me too. I think I wasted my master ball is what happened. Now what was I talking about?GP 5:51 You had missed your chance to get to you? Oh, yes,Wulff 5:54 I I had missed my chance to catch me too because I blew my master ball and I think zapped or something. And so I was kind of disappointed and I ended up starting my file over and played through the game a second time over the next few weeks to finally catch me to it. That's how into it I was I do need the master ball to collect to catch him. I don't think you needed it but I think it was such a slim chance to catch him without it that it was just a pain in the butt.Palsh 6:23 Okay, that's fair.Wulff 6:25 I probably tried 2530 times and failed every time as I now I'm done. Yeah,Palsh 6:32 piece ofJake 6:33 you every time I looked it up the guides always said just save your master ball from YouTube. You want themWulff 6:37 But see, they'd sold me on the birds being the legendary Pokemon. I kind of thought I needed the master ball for that.Palsh 6:43 You know, I would have probably done the same. I wasWulff 6:45 tricked. Anyway, moving on from that. That was my experience with Gen one. How about you guys?Jake 6:52 So my Express Pokemon will see I was a pretty cool kid in high school. I know. I know. Hard to believe but all the cool kids used to play Magic the Gathering during recess and lunch. So all my friends play matches the game we played for years. And then I used to do the occasional tournament. He's one of those guys went to the local comic book store the coolest place on Earth, everybody knows. Anyway, after a while, I realized that a lot of adults stop playing magic and start playing this new game with colorful, weird, bizarre characters. And I didn't quite understand it. And one of the mentioned to me was Pokemon. And then pretty soon within a month, they stopped doing Magic the Gathering tournaments. They stopped doing Star Wars tournaments. They didn't do Star Trek anymore. They didn't do miniatures, all the all the grown men were playing Pokemon the card game, it sweeps my area. Like I've never seen anything. be such a fad before. for single lonely middle aged men in conference stores. I can't believe it.Palsh 7:50 I just like to say that pokeyman is how Canadians say it just like how we say merio not Mario.Jake 7:56 Exactly. It's the Pokemons so my experience was was here about the franchise from that. And then a friend of mine showed me an episode the cartoon and kind of went from there. And after the cartoon I've watched a few episodes cartoon, which we can talk about later. But from there I tried the video game and actually I quite hooked on the game, but I didn't play Pokemon until a couple years after the fad kind of hit. And I was probably considered too old for the franchise. I was not a kid but I played the first game. But for an RPG I've always been a fan of RPG and despite the you know, the aiming at a lower younger audience, the game is quite good. This is very solid game challenging and parts collectible hit all right, you know the edges for you. And it's great fun.Palsh 8:37 See, I I'm like from nowhere in the middle of nowhere. So we were always late when it came to getting games like that. So I remember reading it and magazines Of course. And the show Actually, I caught first before I actually played the game and I was like, Okay, I'm not a big anime fan, but this one caught my attention. I was probably in grade eight going to grade nine. Maybe I was in grade nine, something like that. So just just catch my attention. I was like, this is kind of cool. And, of course, when I watched the show made no sense because it was never aired in order. So I remember seeing probably the end of the season first and then like, then I see ash start off, you know, so I get really confusing. But I remember one guy had the game and he had both of them. You had one game boy, he had two of the games, and he had the transfer cable, but he didn't have another game book. So he gave me I think, read the play. And so that was my first experience. And I was like, Okay, let's try it. And I was like, okay, where do I get Pikachu? You don't have pika choo. I was like, Oh, you know, and so you know, I chose Squirtle because I was like the water Pokemon Pokemons over the fire ones. And I just remember, it was really fun, and I wasn't expecting it to be. So I don't know what the word is like. So straightforward. Like it felt almost like a beginners RPG I thought my head at first, but then it had, like, very simple strategies and stuff, but it was easy for me to catch on to and it was just kind of addicting. Right, right from the get go. And it's just, I remember playing it, I don't know how far I got because I didn't own it. And then, you know, my friends like deleted my game so he could play it and I was like, but I just remember seeing a meme about 10 years later, and I'll it shows the intro screen like when you first start a new game. And it says, no matter what you do, you'll never be able to experience this the same as your first time. It was like rip from like, you know, it's supposed to be like your first time with a significant other, but they basically didn't, and they dressed it up to make it look like a Pokemon game and I thought that was hilarious and ever since then, like the intro to the very first game. I was thought was really cool because of that. It's just like a very Personal feel to it. And I'm not even that huge, a Pokemon fan, so I just thought that was really nice. I thought they had, they couldn't have nailed it better.GP 11:10 I growing up had been into like tabletop type games like hero quest and like x men Mutant Chronicles and all those kind of ones. And I had itGP 11:22 here, right.GP 11:24 I was just slaying Poon, left and right. No, sorry, I shouldn't say that. I was 12. But I had a friend who had just a ton of Pokemon cards. And it's time I was living in Missouri. And he tried to show me the game and explain it to me. And I'd stayed the night over at his house one night, and I loved it. Not enough to go out and buy him. I didn't really see the need because my friend Adam. I loved you know, doing like the deck And you know it's back when you played with like the marbles or the bubbles or whatever they're called you know and not just all these things that I have is completely new and and awesome. And then he of course went out and he just had all the Pokemon stuff so he ended up getting the first two Gameboy games Forgive me for not remembering exactly which colors they were and I played one or both of them. I don't exactly remember which, but I loved them and then all of the generation to stuff started happening and I immediately lost interest. It was almost like Mega Man seven came out all over again. And I just to me, it was already this big well thought out thing. And now I've got more that I have to learn and I just, I honestly hardcore fell off after generation two and it was kind of the same with pokemon go if we end up talking about that later, Pogo came out and I loved it until like Gentoo came out. And then I'm like, Well, that's it for me. But I that's my memory of it. I loved it.Palsh 13:06 Yeah, I gotta say I'm the same way. When I played the first one, I was like, I'm the kind of guy that wanted to go for all all of them. And I knew I couldn't because you know, there's multiple playthroughs I knew I'd have to do it all myself because there was nobody to trade with. I was like, I just couldn't do it. And then I found out you can do it all over again with the next next game. I'm like, No, no, no, sorry.Jake 13:28 You mean I gotta walk bore man.Wulff 13:32 See, I was I was actually excited about golden silver. When I when I first learned about it, I was I was on board. But then a friend of mine got both of them. And he played through one of them. And then while he was playing through one, he was like, you can borrow the other one for a while, if you will. And I was like, all right, so I bought it for about a week or two. I tried playing it for a little while, and I got so annoyed with the fact that not only was it across different versions, but now The Pokemon only spawned at certain times of day. And under certain weather conditions, I guess the game had weather. I don't remember if that's if that was implemented in that one yet. But even just the morning, daytime and nighttime, completely threw me I was like, dude, I have other things to do throughout the day, I can't be expected to play Pokemon to try and catch a specific one at a certain time. I'm not going to fire the game up at three different times in the day to try and catch a certain thing or see if something different appears like it was just outside of the realm of reality for me, being a high schooler. It's like Okay, first off, morning and afternoon. They're just not going to happen.Jake 14:46 Yeah, I used to work night shifts. So try and catch Pokemon the daytime muscles be sleeping. No, thank you.Palsh 14:51 I think that's one of those things that would be really good in theory more than execution. Like if they had like an end game clock. MaybeWulff 15:01 Yeah, I thought it was a great idea. But it was not practicalGP 15:05 but right. And the reason they would never do that, like with an in game clock, and we've kind of talked about this before Simon's quest, and so I'll leave that there.Palsh 15:16 Now all of a sudden, we need Pokemon Gold and Silver redacted.GP 15:19 Oh, yes, that'll play.Jake 15:21 Well, okay, I got a question then. So if Pokemon were available during night and day time, Pokemon, generally is targeted children. Kids have to sleep at night. So does that kind of skew the game to either keeping kids out of bed or kind of doing a non to adult surveillance series? It's kinda interesting.Wulff 15:41 I think Yeah, I'm not sure I believe the timing on it was from something like 5am to 11am was considered morning. And then 11 to six or seven was day and then after that was night Okay, wasPalsh 16:00 this like based on your console's timezone? Like, how does it work onWulff 16:04 your cartridge actually had an internal battery that maintained the time of day? Okay?GP 16:10 Which one? Which game was the dinnertime Pokemon? Cuz that one would be okay.Palsh 16:17 I just send it to my friends on the West Coast Hey, hook me up.Wulff 16:21 So I I did get into the card game quite a bit as Jake touched on earlier, I had some friends who played magic but I didn't have any magic cards. And I had some other friends who liked magic, but they also didn't have magic cards. And we all kind of felt like well, it's a little late to jump on the magic train at this point. Everybody's got these badass decks, we can't really keep up. So let's try Pokemon. It's got one set out right now there's 150 cards won't be that hard to start getting into Fred right off the bat. So we did that. And I do believe at one point I actually collected the entire first set and then Pretty much the moment I did it, I was like all right, well now I don't want to have all of these anymore I'm going to start trading them to get the best deck I can make. So away my charas are away with my Venus or I started making other decks and I actually created a deck that was really overpowered that was just water type it was basically blast toys and gear it was to just own everything. We ended up spending so much time playing Pokemon and we had friends who wanted to join in to start playing with us that we altered the rule set at it at a point in time to where we figured out analogues for everything to where it could be played like magic.Palsh 17:42 Oh, nice.Wulff 17:46 That's That's how similar they were is that we figured out a way to wear anything like if the rule said one thing in Pokemon. You change it to match another rule in Magic the Gathering and you're set. See wipe off the zero On the HP and you've got it covered.Palsh 18:02 I like that because I didn't touch the card game so I could have just went straight into that and played.Wulff 18:07 Yeah, it was it was pretty wild that we did that. Some of our friends were like, Well why are you doing that? Or like, I don't know, we just we played so much Pokemon. Now we want to try it as magic.Jake 18:17 You could just by magic, you know?Wulff 18:21 Evil we already had the Pokemon cards.Jake 18:23 damn kidsPalsh 18:26 get off my lawn.Wulff 18:27 Plus that friend and I had art class together and we never did the actual assignments in that class. SoPalsh 18:35 we just blew all that time playing Pokemon or turning it into magic. Were you the kids that were making your own magic cards and Pokemon cards?Wulff 18:43 No, no, no, that was another friend of mine.Palsh 18:46 Oh man. I've never tried to no good with Photoshop now so I can't even do that to this day.Wulff 18:51 Oh, no, no, he drew them.Palsh 18:53 Oh, wow. Okay.Wulff 18:56 Anyway, um, so yeah, from the Gen one that's kind of where that stood for me. I don't think I touched so I don't think I touched the franchise again until it hit GPA. And even then it wasn't the first generation that hit GPA was when they remade red and blue as Leaf Green and fire red. I was like I haven't been into it for a while I haven't been able to but since this is a remake, maybe it'll be able to recapture that that I have been missing with the previous games. And I jumped into it. It helped me for a while I think about 3540 hours and then it lost me again. I never beat it.Palsh 19:35 That's good. That's the intro to like an Elder Scrolls game right there.Wulff 19:39 All right. 3540 hours is nothing to sneeze at for holding you But yeah, pretty sure. I mean, I played through 80 hours of the original blue the first time and then probably another 40 hours to get to the everything the second time soPalsh 19:53 respect, I played the Sapphire one on Gameboy Advance because my friend I'll never forget Get this this is what got me into it again because I didn't touch it again like after like after you said, you know just kind of dropped off like with GP you know, you got to do this all over again now. So I'm minding my own business working. I was working at a gas station I was probably 18 maybe 19 my friend came down just to visit me at work and like I'm working in the shack like it's literally smaller than a sheet of plywood is the shack that I was working in. And my friend came in so there's barely enough room for both of us stand up and he takes his pocket takes his thing and it was pocket and I thought it was like a makeup kit and I was like you bought makeup. He's like Nah, man. scam boy. I was like what so he had the Gameboy Advance SP and I never even heard of it. And what is it he goes game is the advanced is the Gameboy Advance SP. I was like, okay, and he opens up his I got Pokemon. I goes really? And he goes, Yeah, they made new one. So he had Ruby in there and he let me play it. He basically brought it down and immediately gave it to me and let me play And just like pick up and I was just collecting stuff for him and I was playing it for like 40 minutes at work, you know, I take a stop to run out and serve a customer and come back and I was playing the game. And I instantly was like, This is amazing. This is amazing. So, but I didn't have an sp right I just had the old school Gameboy that you need to be under a fluorescent light to play. And so he said, You know what, how about I get, I get the original one and you can get one and we'll play I was like, okay, cool, because you know, we could play together that way. And so we ended up ordering red for him because he had Ruby and I got blue. We're both playing it That was really mad because I had to play out in the basement in my house under fluorescent light while he was in my room, in like hanging down like in the couch that I had in my room. And so the first thing I did after I went on, I went to go to school, I went to Walmart bought an sp bought a carrying case, but Sapphire and started playing incessantly until Christmas. And then I came back and absolutely wrecked him because he stopped playing a month after I left. Wow. So I felt like a king and I still do to this day. So if you're listening thanks for we have an up buddy.Wulff 22:13 So Jake and JP Did either of you touch anything else from Gameboy or gameboy advance?GP 22:20 No, not so much I. Honestly, my exposure after that really has been from Twitch and from watching other streamers who have that deep rooted devotion to the franchise, which I do admire. But it's one of those franchises for me now, where I get a little bit of nostalgia for the old stuff. I enjoy watching the new stuff, but I don't know that I'll pick it up again.Wulff 22:49 Yeah, I'm kind of on the fence about some of that. I don't think I touched it again until Diamond and Pearl for the DS. And that one held me even less than Leaf Green and fire red. So I kind of learned Lesson and I haven't bought another one since now, when go released Of course, it was free to play. I had a smartphone. My wife had a smartphone so we were like sure let's give it a shot. So we downloaded it and played the crap out of it for about two weeks. Were like our phones were just never ending we plugged inPalsh 23:24 yeah I invested in those cigarette lighter chargers two weeks from now I'm a millionaire because of that.Wulff 23:34 Oh invested it No we bought some that's what I mean by invested in chargers we we just bought itJake 23:41 I can retire on us cables and car chargers. I'd be rich by now. But for me, I I also work I worship the Gameboy Advance SP I love that system. It's one of my all time favorite system especially very handheld. I think it's King and what kind of sold me When I first saw the commercial and advertisements for fire read, and just that wave install Joe, you know, I had read, I put the hell into that game. Sure. And then you know when the game starts up, and you see ash first leaving town and that hero rock soundtrack kicks in. It just nails me it just hooks me right in. I love the hell it if I read, but then after that after I and I played that, I mean dozens if not hundreds of hours. But after that generation, I kind of fell off and I didn't touch it for years. And it really wasn't until which McCall it was new Gameboy called Gameboy 3dsPalsh 24:36 the 3ds watch mycologist chocolate,Jake 24:39 right, it's not a Gameboy. Hopefully, if you pretended really hard with the power of imagination, it could be the 3ds I end up getting 3ds and that of course every system has Pokemon games and I played Sun and Moon. I think I played the moon version. And I enjoyed it. I love how they took the game into 3d, a little bit of the models. They kind of I mean, they always alter the formula from generation to generation. But for sun and moon that kind of moved away from the idea of going to various gyms to battling Gym Leaders instead of this kind of weird Pacific Island you know quest fighting looking for these let these special Pokemon to learn from them. It was kind of a weird take on it. I didn't quite get into it. So I actually don't ever finish moon I got a couple hours into it and kind of give up.GP 25:24 And at this point, it's not that it's saturated. But he really you guys talk about like, Pearl and Sapphire and, and I just, I don't know what the differences are anymore. I think I would be tempted if I ever got like a super Gameboy. I think I would be tempted to find the the original two and replan. But aside from that and Pokemon Go like you know werewolf was talking about earlier a bit night we put in so many miles with the kiddos just wandering around Wichita, and we even we would go and take over Jim's Like actually we had one in Topeka to bring things full circle there for a little while Topeka and so I really did love polka when it first came out and again it's just the the de generation to drop down like man do I hope they do what they did with wow classic World of Warcraft. Just bring back g one everything and I'll be happy I'll go back through it.Jake 26:24 Well the fire fire red is is the perfect way to experience the first generation Pokemon again it's the same game just remastered it just looks better sounds better, but it's the same gameplay same story if you're into that there was there a storyWulff 26:39 Yeah, I think it added an island that had Pokemon from other generations like selected Pokemon, butGP 26:47 well that I can do pretty much itPalsh 26:48 Yeah, I would check that out. Like I said, I love the game when it first came out on Gameboy but one thing now going back to it and watching somebody else play it or playing it myself is the audio and it's just because mainly because Because of the sound is you know, so limited on Gameboy but the low health warning. I remember one time it gave me a headache to the point where I got a migraine. So now I just cringe when I hear. So I if I ever play it again, I'm just going to go for five red or Leaf Green.Wulff 27:17 Yeah, it's that sound kidding. Great. A. That is one thing video games have from any era, when they have that you're almost gonna die beep it just starts to get on your nerves. I don't know why that's a thing. Like I get it. If the game is really in your face with a lot of action and stuff. And it's like beeps delay, you know, Zelda is not that fast paced game. And they just throw those beeps at you until you get enough hearts. Pokemon is the same way you're in a turn based combat you all that's on screen is your Pokemon and health bars. You know you're dying.Jake 28:00 The top 10 worst sounds and video games i'd agree that the Pokemon death sound is probably up there linked to the past is probably number one but Pokemon death is up there.Palsh 28:10 I'll put it that number one it seriously it like wearable says it greats and it's just I think it's just because it's ingrained in my head now at this point where I had that one one experience I'm just like, oh no.Jake 28:23 What about the Pokemon sound effects themselves? Do you find those charming or just annoying? I thoughtPalsh 28:29 actually it was pretty impressive to go from watching the show, you know where they all basically say their own name was how the hell they make noises. But then when you actually play the Gameboy game, the original ones and you know Jigglypuff makes the same music that Do you know, it? They they kept true to that and I think even with the limited audio hardware they had, it was really impressive.Wulff 28:58 At least with some Pokemon it didn't Seemed like the they were trying to make it almost sound like they they were at least inflecting their Japanese names because a lot of them didn't have the same name in the US like bigger two and right you pretty much it least from Gen one a lot of them had very different names aside from that.Palsh 29:17 Anything noteworthy thisWulff 29:21 I think Squirtle was zinna Gamay oh wow yeah rolls off the tongue.GP 29:25 Yeah, I'm not hearing the difference my brotherWulff 29:27 had a my brother had a toy that he picked up at some toy store in Florida at one point I guess it was an important because all he said was like he hit the button and he goes and Danny You know, he was saying his Japanese name he wasn't saying the western name.Jake 29:44 My favorite Pokemon is trash bag. He balls to the trash fire.Wulff 29:51 Some Pokemon are just horrifying, like drif Loon. I don't know if you guys know of drift or not. I don't remember what generation It came from but it's a Pokemon that looks like a balloon. And what it does is it hangs out near children to try and coax them into grabbing this like going and chasing it down because oh boy, cute, pretty balloon. I must have a balloon. I'm a small child, and it'll grab their arm and steal them away.Palsh 30:20 Wow, that's like,Wulff 30:21 it just takes the children away. It's like Billy's balloon from what is that guy's name? Don Hertzfeld with all the little balloons taking the kids up into the sky and dropping them.GP 30:37 horror movies are you guys? Well, I'm sitting here thinking about penny. Well,Wulff 30:40 dude, this is a cartoon. Okay. Little tangent here. If you guys remember the Pop Tarts commercials with the really weird people, like the weird looking handwriting people were they were like chasing the Pop Tarts duranium. Those were done Hertzfeld animations for pop tarts. So Billy's balloon was an independent piece he did years before that, where it didn't have to be market friendly. It just exists.Palsh 31:11 Just exists.GP 31:13 Well, I have to chime in real quick for two things. One because I just remembered, and two is a callback to a conversation a moment ago. I completely forgot about this until just now. Pokemon Snap. I love that game. Still love that game. That game is rad. You guys can find me. I don't know if that game is popular or if everybody hates it, but I fucking love it. That's a great game. Okay. Wait, what?Wulff 31:37 It's think snap is pretty well received.GP 31:40 Okay, cool. And the other one. The other comment I have to get in here was about the most hated beeping noise in video games. And I would like to point out the soundtrack to 1942 because that doesn't just be Pichu when you're about to die. That's just the soundtrack.Jake 32:00 You know the real speed runs 1942 you have to blur the soundtrack otherwise cheatingWulff 32:04 oh my god have real speed run is to beat it in 1941GP 32:09 that is some some Marty McFly stuff that I'm not prepared for. That's okay, so yeah, that was my two cents. Pokemon Snap THUMBS UP 1942 shit soundtrackJake 32:23 when you guys mentioned like badly named Pokemon like Drake foon the one that stands out for me and ash, he's a favorite of mine in Pokemon moon. It's me muku. And it's let me just read the descriptions from Sun and Moon just so you have an appreciation for why like this one. Its actual appearance is unknown. A scholar who saw what was under its reg was overwhelmed by terror and died from the shock.Palsh 32:46 WhatJake 32:46 after going through all the effort of disguising itself, its neck was broken. whatever is inside is probably unharmed, but it's still feeling sad. Wow. It's literally a Pikachu. It's a rag on a stick With a crudely drawn Pikachu face in ears it's hilarious Pokemon as you can tell if it's a description What is this thing called? Me Miku it's just it's just hilarious I it's sad and disturbed but I love the Pokemon origin stories are terrible like they're frightening for kids game.Wulff 33:15 One Which one? The mimic you? Okay, my firstJake 33:19 sudden moon by a Maven in an earlier game.Wulff 33:22 Yeah That thing is nightmare fuel.Jake 33:25 I love it though, because it can take a free hit and then it's disguised goes away, and it's basically invisible to ghost Pokemon, but it gets that free hit no matter what. So it's a fantastic Pokemon. It's my favorite.GP 33:35 It looks like one of those yarn doll versions of a Pokemon from like little big world or whatever it was. Oh, sackboy Yeah, yeah.Wulff 33:45 Little Big, Little Big Planet. Thank you. sackboy was the main character.GP 33:49 Okay, I thought maybe it was a translation difference between the lower 48 in Canada.Palsh 33:58 There's a metric equivalent in there somewhere. Yeah, sure, sure, sure.GP 34:02 Yeah, so I at some point, I do feel like it's not that they haven't kept trying when it comes to the naming and designs of some of the late Gen Pokemons. But they have kind of become Forgive me for this the equivalent of like, Stephen King novel plots. It's like are you really trying right now? Is This Really? Is this really part of what you're What were you just joking? Like that's how that's where it's at. for me. It's like how, how many Pokemon are there as of September 2019. Something like 800 I'm sorry, I had a stroke. How manyGP 34:40 800 807GP 34:45 I can barely keep up with 151 that's all I'm saying.Palsh 34:49 Yeah, sameJake 34:50 Okay, Pokemon wrap. Let's go 123 anybody?Wulff 34:56 Okay, man, Pokemon GOGP 34:59 ninja. Ninja rap. Yeah, I thinkWulff 35:05 I just couldn't remember the Pokemon rap. So that's where I went.Palsh 35:08 Slow po YouTube dedeker route aerodactyl. That'sGP 35:13 right. We got we're going to have to pay some money. No polish.Palsh 35:17 Yeah. Okay. Let's go make instead let's go make a toe mimic you instead of Topeka, choo. Oh,Wulff 35:27 speaking of Topeka to you. They they actually did it again. Last year and 28th anniversary.Jake 35:37 Oh God, they did it again. Same city.Wulff 35:39 Yes. Same city for the 20 year anniversary of it. They did it again for a day. Okay. thought that was interesting, butGP 35:48 that speaks a lot to the mentality of Kansas. Here's what I mean by that. Topeka has to be come to peek at you. There's a place here that is called Hutchinson better now. North of where I live, and that is widely considered as Smallville what Smallville from the Superman mythos would be if it were real. And so where I'm going with this is the idea the ideology for Kansas tourism is, Hey, come here and we'll pretend it's somewhere else.Jake 36:22 It's like trying to bring back the rim sunglasses. They're terrible idea and tacky in the 80s to bring him back now in 2019 is just pathetic.Jake 36:32 Is that a thing? I've seen some people were in I'm in my city. Every every 10 years yeah,Palsh 36:37 that they Yes. You see a trend. Come back.GP 36:40 You say that. But the matrix is coming back. So that's cool. So it's hit or miss.Palsh 36:45 But yeah, never went away.GP 36:47 Yeah, that's if you come into Kansas ever. The state line sign says, Welcome to Kansas. We're sorry.Palsh 36:57 It's the Canada of the United States.Wulff 37:01 So, moving back on to the Pokemon I did actually get to try let's go recently Oh yeah, my kid got it a while back my brother actually got him the, the the poker ball plus. So we started playing that a while back and he he loves it he has a blast with it because he gets to pretend he's a Pokemon trainer throwing the ball and catching the Pokemon. It's a blast, right? And when we fired it up, it said that there was a gift inside the poker ball. And when it told us that the poker ball made one of the sounds that you know one of the Gameboy Pokemon sounds from way back when and I didn't know what Pokemon It was. It was like I spent ages I don't know, I don't even think I knew which Pokemon made what sound back was back then. You know. So we played far enough to see about opening up this gift and seeing what was in it and then we opened it and it was a freaking newJake 38:00 Wow that's pretty awesomeWulff 38:01 he's not even at the first gym yet and now he's got a mew is randomized or does everyone I don't know if everybody gets a mew or if it's kind of random for rare Pokemon in general and we just got really lucky or oneJake 38:17 of us part of it didn't look into the only way you can get them you in that game is if you pay the 6070 bucks for the Pokeball accessory oh wow like in the original game that I think they gave me away there's usually had some kind of like public event and they let you get access Yeah,Wulff 38:31 they did mall events all over the place. And you had to go wait in line and have your Gameboy and your cartridge just fired up trade get your meJake 38:44 wants to do that again recently with sun and moon or pokemon go one of the two there's a new one that is literally a bolt like a nut like a metal and steel not that's a Pokemon now I think his name is meltin and I want to say done locket. You had to go What was events?Wulff 39:01 But I do have to say I kind of enjoy how let's go plays it feels less tedious since encounters with wild Pokemon or just throw balls at it and catch it move on. There's no beating it up to try and catch it there's just smashing the A button over and over to get it over with because every interaction if it's not a trainer battle, it's over in like 15 seconds. If that is you try using enjoy. So that was actually kind of nice. Um, no, we haven't played it with the joy con yet. He's just been playing with the poker ball playJake 39:33 with the joy con because you can play with two players kind of in that game. I play with my kids and we don't have the pokemon ball. But joy cons are hot garbage with it. And you spend 10 balls trying to hit a goddamn Pokemon. But it's all trade.Wulff 39:46 Oh, he catches it every frickin time with the poker ball. Plus, it's ridiculous. The little tiny circle. He's getting excellent, amazing. Yeah, I don't know what it is. But he's also playing like five feet from a 42 inch TV. That At his eye level soJake 40:02 well clearly he's destiny a Pokemon master he just said him outside world with a baseball hat and a backpack and said Good luck.Wulff 40:09 Yeah, well he's not 10 yet he's only five he's halfway there.Palsh 40:13 Hell I'm 35 and I'm not ready for thatWulff 40:18 Alright, so let's let's let's touch on the anime and the movies a little more. I'm going to openly admit and open myself up for mockery here. I saw a Pokemon the first movie Pokemon 2000 and Pokemon I don't know what it was called Pokemon three. I don't know if that's what it was called. Something else the one with MJ. I saw all three of those in theaters. I never saw a single one of them to be honest.GP 40:43 I'm sorry. What was it? Hint hint? A No You saidWulff 40:48 I it was some big orange dog thing that looked kind of like a growl either andGP 40:54 it was bigger googling hint a right now and it's it's not popping up anything like what you're talking about?Wulff 41:01 That's that was the last one I saw that I was kind of like and now my phone crashed but but when I when I saw the first one in theaters, I legit teared up. I don't know if you guys have seen that movie, but toward the end,GP 41:17 I think the only one I saw was Pokemon 2000 and that was at a drive in theater. That was also showing Casper Do you guys remember that with Christina Ricci? That was like the double feature, and I think that's the only time I saw Pokemon 2000Wulff 41:37 pretty sure that movie came well before Pokemon 2000GP 41:40 Oh yeah, I'm not saying it was topical. I'm just saying that's what was playing.Jake 41:44 It was a classic. For me it was the less the movies and more the cartoon the first season and Pokemon the anime that's like a guilty pleasure for me. I watched it with my kids not too long ago and every time Pikachu I know it's me fine. I know his will never die ever. But anytime he's in mortal peril and he's just beaten up, and he gives that little cry and clutches them tightly like a baby. I should have single tier every time. I don't care who hates mePalsh 42:14 hates you. Everybody relates to you now.GP 42:17 Yeah. Who would show hate? Like how dare you have feelings toward this cartoon? Yeah,Wulff 42:22 it's it's funny how much more prevalent Pokemon is these days than it was when you know generation one released but with Gen one they had what two or three musical albums that released with the anime and it was ridiculous and I don't know what they they do that stuff anymore. I'm pretty sure it's just the games and plushies mostly at this point.Jake 42:44 In terms of merchandise. Oh, there's all kinds of merchandise. Yeah.Wulff 42:48 My my brother had one of the CDs that to be a master album. Attract microphone master. Turn offPalsh 42:55 the tape right the ghetto blasterUnknown Speaker 42:58 Exactly.Palsh 43:00 That's That's some 41Jake 43:01 but I went over overseas to Tokyo there. We actually went to other Pokemon centers, but we didn't even we didn't need to go to that store. There's Pokemon everywhere in Tokyo I guess that goes up saying but from cookies to juice, the vending machine to underwear, literally everything. And I still see a lot of that over here too. I still I still see the occasional Pokemon figurines and toys and stuff.Wulff 43:21 We went to the mall a couple weeks ago here and I saw a little like one of those stands and it wasn't really a kiosk but it was like a standalone vending machine kind of thing. But it was called a Pokemon Center and it had a vending machine on one side with a bunch of Pokemon merge in it, and then it had a poker decks on another side where you could like look at the different Pokemon and it was kind of wild.Jake 43:45 Well, I was just actually just at the CME in Toronto. It's basically a big fair exhibition in the UK carnival games, that kind of thing. And some of the prizes are obviously knockoff Pokemon merchandise, right? And I saw a family like with three kids and strollers One of the kids was clutching a I mean a gigantic Pikachu. Like it was probably two three feet long. It's huge. And this pair of guys and I mean, buff, gym looking dudes, six and a half, seven feet tall, just the toughest guys walking down the street or the the avenue and they see the kid with the giant Pikachu and they walk up, hands on hips like yo yo, would you get that Pikachu and the basketball game? Oh, thanks so much and then they just ran ran for the carnival game but the games to get their own tickets you know just to show you that the generation who love Gen one are all like you know 30 plus now for the most part and have that just love a peek into stuff.Wulff 44:45 Oh yeah, Pikachu. I mean, they knew that was a gold mine from the get go. It they were in Topeka you there was friggin Pokemon Yellow. I think to this day, they still brand pretty much Every console with a Pikachu to some extent, even if it's a limited release, ridiculous. But yeah, I gotta say I'm I do like the older cartoons. There's probably only one line I still remember from the original movie. Or maybe it was the second movie I don't know is from one of the movies, there was a really bad line that I choose, you know? No, no, no nothing. And I'm pretty sure it was the second movie because it was a bunch of people on a yacht. I don't know, it might have been the first movie I really don't remember, but there's a bunch of people on a boat and you overhear them talking like there's people at different tables eating and talking and it passes by one table and you hear a guy go, and I said, No, I just had crab bees and everybody burst into laughter. I was like, Oh my god, that is not a kid friendly joke.Jake 45:56 Even crabs is a Pokemon.Jake 45:59 Gotta catch mallGP 46:05 Okay, here's a question. Because I legit don't know, in the Pokemon universe, are there what we would consider normal animals? Like is there like a like a dog just a regular canine? Or is every single animal in that universe of Pokemon?Wulff 46:27 I feel like generation one the way we were introduced to Pokemon made it sound like there were other animals that were not Pokemon. But the further we get into the franchise, if you like, the less, that seems to be the case. Right? Which is really bizarre because I'm pretty sure oak said that all the Pokemon shared a lot of common genes. Okay, and so that means they're like, all these Pokemon are just weird mutants and we're just living on their planet.GP 47:00 Just how uneventful and underwhelming and potentially scary would it be to be like a dog? Or like a regular domestic house cat in the Pokemon world be horrifying, and you'd be let down to everybodyJake 47:17 with your account Oh, you're sure the cow will eat you will grind you into burgers but you know mu tanks or whatever the cow pokeyman is? Yeah milk bankWulff 47:27 andJake 47:28 Toro him. He's a Pokemon special. Eat that goddamn cow, rightGP 47:38 Okay, thereWulff 47:40 we go question can you carve up a milk and eat some of it leave it alive take it to a Pokemon Center and heal itJake 47:49 the question doesn't want you to think aboutUnknown Speaker 47:52 right yeah.Wulff 47:53 With the with the hard questions will be getting that cease and desist very soon.GP 47:59 There's always He's that kid at school who runs up and you're like, oh, man, check it out. You know, I got this cool new thing that everybody has. And it's the offering thing that you know, you had to get from the dollar store that that was me growing up so I can make this year. But that kid shows up with a pokey ball. He's like, Can I just check it out? I got like a Meowth. And he opens it and it's just like a cat. Like, damn it, Randall. You know, go back to the corner. That's horrible. That's how bullying starts. And it's not funny.Jake 48:34 Robots aren't real transformers. Back to eat and paste. I'm just picturing now somebody's taking a cat into Pokemon battle. just pulling in a cat carrier like the opponent's like charges are going from smokey ball. And then some guy with a cat carrier. Smell with go nuts.Palsh 48:53 And it's like I said house can literally a house. Yeah. And it's like way more feral than the He hasGP 49:00 a Pokemon delivers takes down the gear dose, and it gets disqualified but like kindaPalsh 49:07 like Karate Kid, you know wins with that illegal kick to the head.GP 49:12 Yeah, but at that point everybody had already stormed the man. I'm sorry. Effective.Palsh 49:20 Welcome, ladies and gentlemen, the press beat cancel. This is how we normally talk. Yeah, I apologize. SoWulff 49:28 I think it's almost time to hit be so let's go ahead and go around and see what everybody's favorite point in the series was. I think for me, it's pretty safe to say it was just Pokemon blue period. I that's I played the crap out of it. I played through it two or three times. I traded for every single Pokemon And that my friends and I figured out how to do the missing no nonsense and all that. It's blue holds a special place in my heart that no other entry in the game has in the French has been able to replicate.GP 50:02 Cool, cool. I think for me, my favorite moments, or era of Pokemon is the day after I was introduced to Pokemon, because I got the idea of what it was. And my mind was like being expanded to see what the rules were for the card game and then gradually introduced to all this other stuff. And it was just this amazingly fun idea. And so to be at the front door, of all the stuff that you know, you're about to learn, it's going to be awesome. That was that was magic. That was absolute magic. So for me, that was my favorite part.Jake 50:43 You know, for me, it's Pokemon. It's when's the spin off? That's the stuff I enjoy the most and actually quite like what they're doing today or nowadays with it. Detective Pikachu is probably good. Good spin on I believe there was a game on the 3ds for that. And I just love how to peek at you with a little character, and he's in he's in this combat situation or you think he's going to be with his friend there who has tried to peek at you. And he's like Pikachu use Thunderbolt. And detective Pikachu just looks at this guy and says use Thunderbolt. And to me, that's just like, the funniest thing in the planet, right? Like, humans order around animals do battle, and the animal turning to you and say, What the hell are you talking about? I love to pick at you that the recent movie, the CGI movie, I thought was actually really great. And I hope to do more crazy stuff like that. Like the mainline games are fun at all. But when they take Pokemon and put it into different situations that spin off, I love that kind of stuff.Palsh 51:39 Yeah, that's, that's really cool. I like that. And I haven't even seen the movie yet. So now I really want to see it. But for me, it's definitely I want to say Sapphire because I was playing it so much like it was probably from like August to December. I didn't really play anything else. I'd be watching the movie gravity. We're watching a movie and I playing the game. But I think it's just that introduction to Sapphire, by playing Ruby is probably my fondest memory of the entire franchise just because my friend came down out of the blue. And it's just one of those things like we were both at a high school and I just remember that it was just is a memory that I'll always cherish and I don't know. It was just cool. It's It was like a new era of video games for me, soWulff 52:27 I think that's fair. Alright, so I think we can go ahead and wrap upPalsh 52:34 this list of her favorite Pokemon real quick,GP 52:37 Ryan Reynolds.Wulff 52:38 Oh, I see. I can't talk today. debido Danny DeVitoWulff 52:47 could youGP 52:50 honestly, if I could have like a real life Pokemon. I'd want it to be a growl if they're so cool looking. Yeah, they are pretty cool. And I feel safe and cuddly? You can't cuddle a gear a doseWulff 53:04 I'm not even a cat person but I liked Persian don't know whyGP 53:10 I think that silence is a little bitWulff 53:13 it was a cat that could literally create money out of nothing soPalsh 53:18 yeahGP 53:18 yeah that's a great option only keptWulff 53:19 the least if you evolved it from mouth and Persian was way cooler than me out soPalsh 53:24 that's true that's good solid logic I'll agree with you for there Matt that it's not gonna be my favorite but it's respectable. Jake What do you just like the one you actuallyJake 53:35 I like them we're actually gonna go with Ryan rattle on that goes right right I love rock Canadian Ryan Reynolds is a fantastic Pokemon But no, I like the one I don't even know his name. But it's basically a steel ring with keys attached and that's a Pokemon. I love that one. I'm not I'm not even kidding. I don't notice they marryWulff 53:53 you coming up with the jinglingJake 53:54 key Pokemon is the best of all.GP 53:58 The okay real quick, just to Bring this whole thing home. Sick Jay, did you play with Gobots I think somebody who's played a trick on youJake 54:08 know Gobots I had one Optimus Prime and I had my toy that was itPalsh 54:13 turns out he's kept attacking YuGiOh or, or digium on all this time.Wulff 54:19 This is Pocket Monsters not digital monsters.GP 54:24 Also, I think if if you have a life that you know, you want to escape your life than the me the the Mewtwo sorry, is the Pokemon that you want. Because then if he's cool, he can just get in your mind and you can live whatever life you want. Yes,Wulff 54:41 that's true,GP 54:43 too, and introduce people like, Hey, this is my Pokemon. It's kind of a dick. Or you'd be like, Hey, I don't feel like doing anything today. Can you get in my head and making things that I'm on Jupiter.Wulff 54:53 So you're wanting you to be your own personal Total Recall.GP 54:58 That is exactly what I'm saying. That was perfectly stated where I was going to say he wanted a pet Dr. ManhattanPalsh 55:03 but okay.Jake 55:06 A pet What? Whoa, wait a minute 12 his penis and a Pokemon sounds good to me.Wulff 55:11 I got that reference.GP 55:17 Okay, first off, I have to point out stick Jake uses metric. I don't think he knows what bobbins means. Man I think Sorry guys, I'm sorry. I've loved this this episode, but I'm sorry that I've been the main reason we've gotten off track. I'm so sorry.Palsh 55:44 I think it's fine. minds fit my favorite Squirtle By the way, dicks.Wulff 55:52 Oh, yeah, there's a good question. What was your starters from Jen one Squirtle realPalsh 55:57 quick. I always go with the Pokemon if given a chance,Wulff 56:02 mine was CharmanderPalsh 56:03 sucka.Wulff 56:05 Being original I named him Bernie.Jake 56:08 I use I always wanted the fire type or the ones that look like a cat. I was a cat person and like half this team, and I usually named them stupid things like dog food, frozen peas, creamed corn, stuff like that. Don't ask me why, dude. My dude, no.GP 56:26 Actually, I was watertight to I went with with Squirtle. And I kind of want to change my answer to my favorite being cubone because of how heartbreaking The story is that yes,Palsh 56:36 I love the cubone Yeah, let's not bring it up here because I don't want to cry. But, uh, anybody who's listening, if you don't know the story of a cubone, you should check it out. Because it's Yeah, it is actually worth looking up. SoGP 56:49 just yeah, here's all you have to Google is whose skull is cubone wearing And if that's not the most emotion you've ever heard Yeah, I love it. Also, I mean but yeah, the key chain one is nice to J it's fineJake 57:05 I have look his name upWulff 57:09 anyway this has been presby to cancel I was your host this week thank you for having me for a second week now.Palsh 57:14 Who are you aWulff 57:17 werewolf? You can find me on Twitch and TwitterPalsh 57:21 w ar EWL ffWulff 57:25 I was going to leave it to the imagination this time but thank youPalsh 57:28 all right Polish take it away Hi my name is sick Jake you can find me on Twitter as well as a weight not I'm post one on you find me on Twitch at pulse 109 pls HWulff 57:41 and GPGP 57:43 know go for it. Go for it Jay.Jake 57:47 Thanks GP. For the record. His name is Cliff key cholesky the key chain Pokemon it resembles a key ring with four keys aspherical head and a small pink oval on his forehead anyway That's that's his life story. That's pretty much it. It's also dark and jiggli My name is sick Jake you can find me sick Jake on Twitter or on Twitch. I'm a part time by annual never streamerWulff 58:10 and then our resident derailer Gp.GP 58:14 Yeah, this is GP. Typical spelling. Sorry. And you can find me on the retro therapy, which is of course on Twitch. We're also on Twitter and Instagram, as the retro therapy.Wulff 58:29 Alright, thank you everybody for tuning in. band EQ pqPalsh 58:36 certain music here. Wait, that's not how the song goes.Jake 58:45 Special thanks for music go to Arthur, the ancient found on Soundcloud or the last ancient on YouTube. The more episodes please visit our website presby to cancel.com as well Feel free to like or subscribe at Apple iTunes, Google podcasts or anything. Where else you'd like to listen to your favorite shows? As always, thank you. This has beenWulff 59:06 a do againSpecial thanks to Arthur The Last Ancient on soundcloud for our podcast theme. For updates and more episodes please visit our website www.pressbtocancel.com, or find us on Twitter @pressbtocancel and Instagram @pressbtocancel.

New Riff is a name that has become synonymous with bourbon lovers. You may have recalled our conversation with Jay Erisman, Vice President, back on Episode 072, but this time we get to speak with Owner, Ken Lewis, who drives a bunch of the decision making behind the company. It feels like an episode of How I Built This as we get to hear Ken’s story. From owning and hustling liquor stores to eventually selling all that to start a distillery, hiring some great people, and having a few strokes of good luck to put him in the position where he is today. Then we also get to hear about his thoughts on stickers and some future plans he has in store for New Riff as well. Show Partners: The University of Louisville now has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at uofl.me/pursuespirits. In 2013, Joe Beatrice launched Barrell Craft Spirits without a distillery or defied conventional wisdom. To this day, his team sources and blends exceptional barrels from established producers and bottles at cask strength. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com. Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Distillery 291 is an award winning, small batch whiskey distillery located in Colorado Springs, Colorado. Learn more at Distillery291.com. Show Notes: Jim Beam’s Historic Kentucky Home on Airbnb: https://www.travelandleisure.com/hotels-resorts/vacation-rentals/jim-beam-bourbon-historic-kentucky-home-airbnb This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about the top 5 states for bourbon besides Kentucky. What is your title? Tell us about your entrepreneurial spirit. How did you get into the alcohol business? How did you end up in Northern Kentucky? Do you have any regrets getting rid of your stores? How did you decide to sell Party Source and start a distillery? How did you get interested in bourbon? When was your first taste of bourbon? How did you find the team to get the business off the ground? How did you chose the mash bills? Tell us about the O.K.I. days. Do you still do contract distilling? So why did you release the bourbon at 4 years? How is such a young product so good? How did you get such a great location? What are your future plans for the bourbon? Tells us about the balboa rye. What do you think of the single barrel stickers? 0:00 Everybody Are you interested in looking at the distilling process and pairing that with key business knowledge such as finance, marketing and operations, then you should check out the online distilled spirits business certificate from the University of Louisville. It's an online program. It can be completed in as little as 15 weeks. It's taught by both of you have all business faculty and corporate fellows. So you're getting real experience from real experts at the most renowned distilleries, companies and startups in the distilling industry. all that's required is a bachelor's degree, go to U of l.me. Slash pursue spirits. 0:34 I thought, you know, this could be almost like semi retirement because once you start distilling, I mean, you just kind of sit around and watch barrels age, right? That's what I assumed would happen. You know, I'd wander in, you know, at noon or something and 0:47 get myself a glass. Hey, you 0:48 know, how hard can it be? You know, you're just gonna watch these barrels. Get old 1:04 What's going on everybody? It is Episode 223 of bourbon pursuit. I'm Kenny, one of your host, and it's time for the bourbon news so let's get to it. Woodford Reserve is releasing their fall 2019 Masters collection is a chocolate malted rye bourbon, this limited edition and one time release is offering a different flavoring technique where they toast the ride grain just long enough that it begins to taste like chocolate. This bourbon will have a suggested retail price of 129 99. It has hints of guests that dark chocolate as well as spice coming in and at 90.4 proof. The completed mash bill will be 70% corn 15% of the chocolate malted rye in 15% of distillers malt. Baker's bourbon is getting a facelift and a rebranding as well as a new limited edition offering. This one sort of flew under the radar for a lot of people. It was first picked up almost a year ago by ski Through the TTP just kind of trolling through the website, but now people are starting to find it on the shelves. The Baker's bottles with the black wax that we once knew is going away but there's going to be an upgraded packaging and a slightly higher price tag coming in as well. It is now changing from a small batch 107 proof to a single barrel but still at 107 proof like keeping a seven year age statement. There's also going to be a limited edition 13 year addition of bakers that will have an adorning a metallic inspired label as well as a metal neck charm. We've seen pictures of them already out there so keep your eyes peeled when you're going to the liquor stores. Travel and Leisure magazine has reported that starting on Monday, October 21 you will be able to rent Jim beam's historic home on Airbnb being Suntory will release a limited number of one night stays available for booking through the end of 2019 and each day is priced at just a mere $23 and this marks the same exact price as a bottle of Jim Beam black bourbon. The only catch is that you have to be 21 years or older to stay inside the home. But inside this store home, you're going to have three bedrooms as well as two and a half bathrooms and it overlooks the beautiful ever bought lake. And it comes stocked with a full bar of Jim Beam Bourbons. You can read more about it with the link in our show notes. New riff is a name that's become synonymous with bourbon lovers. And you may recall our conversation with JS man who's the Vice President and back on episode 72. But this time we get to speak with Ken Lewis who drives a bunch of the decision making behind the company. It almost feels like an episode of how I built this as we get to hear Ken's story of owning and hustling liquor stores to eventually selling out a lot of that and to start a distillery hiring some great people. And as most of these stories go, it's just a few strokes and good luck to put them in the position where he is today. Then we wrap it up by getting Be Here some of the future plans he has in store for new riff as well. All right, now let's get to it. Here's Joe from barrel bourbon. And then you've got Fred Minnick with above the char. 4:11 Hey everyone, Joe here again. In 2013. I launched barrell craft spirits without a distillery and defied conventional wisdom. To this day, my team and I sourcing blend exceptional barrels from established producers and bottle strength. Find out more at barrell bourbon com. 4:26 I'm Fred minnick, and this is above the char. This week's idea comes from Patreon supporter bill now, Bill asked give me an overview of the production and other states who is making their own juice. When did they start? Is Kentucky bourbon better? pick five states and highlight the top distiller in each one? Well, I think it makes most sense to take a look at the states that are bordering Kentucky. The states that are bordering Kentucky have the ability to actually pluck talent from the distilling capital of the United States. Isn't that that is Kentucky. There's no question about that. You also have access to the still makers and the and the training and, you know, places that are close to Kentucky can, you know quickly drive down here and learn from the likes of Vendome or independent stave, etc, etc, etc. to the access to talent that puts Indiana right up there. And of course Indiana has the MVP ingredients distillery that has, you know, goes back to the 1800s. It's in Lawrenceburg, Indiana, former seniors plant and I dare say you know, their bourbon rivals Kentucky's on a regular basis. Indiana is also home to you know, upstarts like Cardinal spirits that are very exciting. So Indiana is definitely on that top five list for me, Tennessee. Obviously it's known for jack daniels but we can't under look like some of the other great whiskey coming out there. Whether you like the style or not George decal is putting a lot of bourbon out onto the market, either through you know source purveyors or under their own label. And it's getting a lot of attention winning a lot of awards. You also have Charlie Nelson's Greenbrier distillery uncle nearest is coming on Coursera is in Tennessee so Tennessee is a state that is a no brainer to put on this top five. Now when you get outside of the states that really border Kentucky and are really growing on, you know, distilling wise, Texas stands out to me in a big, big way. Texas is a state that really they support anything from Texas. Texans are very proud of their state. And so if there's a Texas whiskey, it's selling out on those local stores, whether it's good or not, it's got that brand of Texas on it and people want that. That said I think about Connie's kind of stands out as the best from a from a quality perspective, garrison brothers does really well in blind tastings too. So Texas is one to keep your eye on. The one problem with Texas is they sometimes struggle with you know, water resources. So here's the hope and they get a lot of good rain. They can apply that to making good whiskey. I think Colorado is another one of those states. That's fascinating. Colorado really didn't come on until, you know, until the last decade. You've got Breckenridge there but a distillery that's really fascinating to me is to 91 to 90 was ran by this guy named Michael Myers. No affiliation with, you know, the Halloween guy, but he's a former fashion photographer. And he went from having a whiskey on the market that was just kind of so so to really improving it. So he's one of the most improved distillers that I've tasted in my career. And so he's done a nice nice job of building that brand in in Colorado and he finishes in Aspen stage and I tell you what, it's a fascinating flavor. So I think to 91 is an exciting story. I'm from from point A to point B. So I'm excited to see where they where they go next. Now rounding out this list, I'm going to have to say I'm going to pluck into the historical database of my brain in some ways, and say that New York is an extremely, extremely important state for the growth and rise of craft distilling period, when Tuttle town hit the scene in the early 2000s with Hudson baby bourbon, nobody really understood bourbon. It was not a time it's not like today or we had all these forums and people are talking about it or podcasts and everything. This was a time when people still thought bourbon had to be made in Kentucky. So what Hudson baby bourbon did for the conversation of bourbon just in general, is it allowed people to talk about well wait, bourbon doesn't have to be made in Kentucky, it can be made in New York can be made in Colorado can be made anywhere in the United States. And so that Hudson baby bourbon and New York open a lot of doors for people. So that's my list bill, Tennessee, Indiana, Texas, Colorado, New York. And if you guys have have an idea for above the char hit me up on Patreon that's at bourbon pursuit on Patreon or on Instagram or Twitter at Fred Minnick. That's at Frederick. Until next week. Cheers. 9:14 Welcome back to the episode of bourbon pursuit, the official podcast of bourbon. Kenny riding solo today coming to Northern Kentucky in the Covington area with a brand owner that, you know, this is this is one of the brands that have really started to garner a lot of national attention. They were once known for Okay, I, we had a few other people on the podcast. I think it was like two years ago now. And I'm now coming back because this this brand is starting to blow up so much. And it's amazing that the the national attention has been getting at just a four year product. And we're going to talk about that a lot more in depth because today on the show, we have the owner Ken Lewis. So Ken, welcome to the show. Thank you very 9:58 much can I appreciate it? So what do you go by You wouldn't just go by owner the entrepreneur the, you know when the head man in charge 10:04 Yeah, I'll check writer that's my main function it seems like founder, you know owner Yeah. 10:11 So you've been you're you're kind of a serial entrepreneur serial owner. So this isn't your first venture into not only just the the liquor business, but you've done something. I mean, let's talk about before sure party source, like was there was there a time before then where you're doing sort of entrepreneurial things? Absolutely. 10:29 Well, I started in, in the alcohol business and and I sort of hate to date myself, but it's a fact in 1975, so I was 25 years old. So been around the business my entire career. I fell into it at that time. But I found that I really enjoyed entrepreneurship and the alcohol industry in general, and I just kept growing with it because that's kind of what I like to do is grow a brand or grow a business and taking some side steps, but they've always been an alcoholic beverages. 10:59 So What was that that first venture into the alcohol? Well, 11:02 I the story real quickly because it's a cute story but a true story is I was actually an English teacher in high school for two years out of graduate school. And my wife wanted to go to medical school and we didn't have the money and but that was okay too. And I was not living. I'm a native Lily Valium, but I wasn't living and loyal at the time I was in, in the Detroit area in the suburbs. So my father and brought his brother to loyal and had been successful at what was the predecessors of discount department stores, you know, Walmart before there was Walmart, there was a chain in every city my dad had gone from World War Two and surplus military and had then gone into discount department store anyway, he had a very excellent location. And it was alcohol was fair traded the state set the prices It was kind of a no brainer. Businesses just sort of showed up and if you had a good location, it was pretty easy so 11:56 people drink when good times and bad good 11:59 times and bad. And and and you just needed a good location. So he set up my uncle, he's trying to help him out with this wonderful location for a real small liquor store. And my uncle turned out to be a drunk, a thief. He was a womanizer, and he was definitely a gambler. So his idea of running a business was the show. I 12:25 think he hit every single one of the Cardinals. Well, 12:27 yeah, he was good at that. And he was an all around jerk, too. So anyway, he, his idea of running a business was to come in in the morning at like 630 in the morning, take whatever cash he could out of the cash register and a bottle for the day and then disappear. Well. Needless to say, after about no matter how easy the businesses with that kind of approach. After eight or nine months, the business it failed, and it was shuttered and my dad said, you know, this is a no brainer. Why don't you come to town? Quit teaching for one year, take over this liquor store. I'm sure you can make enough money maybe to say Your wife to medical school. And you know, you can go back to teaching you know that you can do this as a side gig. So we didn't use Word gig. That was that's definitely not a 1975 word. But anyway, I did it. And I said, why not. And so he loved me enough to get started. And I really enjoyed it. I love. I love the people part of it. I love retailing. It was it was in the West End, African American area of blue collar area of loyal. I loved learning, you know, just about people and what they were doing. It was before urban renewal, so the very intact communities and I felt that they made me feel a part of the community. I just, I feel like it was my street education and I was there for seven or eight years. I paid my dad back after one year I was so proud and I never went back to teaching and just stayed in the alcohol industry. So that's my creation myth. 13:53 And so your dad was the store owner at the time and he told you to run it is that what 13:56 no he owned the discount department store okay, right next door, the generated The traffic guy made it such a great location. But we were right on the corner, you know, with our own independent little store. And it was like 1500 square feet. So tiny little store and I just kept going. And then without trying to be too boring here. This is 14:15 how I built Well, 14:16 after seven or eight years, Kentucky eliminated fair trade it was eliminated through a court case, because the state was actually setting prices for private enterprise so it was thrown out and no one knew what to do. So I said what the heck I'll I'll do something. So at that time that the trend in retail was big box stores and you know, maybe there are a few of your older listeners that will remember that, you know, it's just cut cases by cheap by NDO cut the cases, no frills and let the consumer just come in and save money and it was a big trend. And I said, well, let's try that with alcohol and no one else is doing anything Kentucky sigh I found this old AMP and Shively, another blue collar area of low evil and I rented the whole place and I started this started like in September and it was not going so well I mean I was doing okay but was wasn't gaining much traction my all everybody was interested in the industry and what I was doing and not very happy because you know people want to keep preserved the past and they didn't like this young upstart with new ideas for the alcohol industry so everybody is watching me like a hawk. And we also had the first PC and the small business that I knew of in loyal and in order to because we had a fair number of skews even even for the you know, even compared to today, we still had a fair number of skews so the computer was the only way at retail to manage them and I was doing all the data input and everything I was working you know, 18 hours a day and we had a law in Kentucky and I'm sure it's still is that you cannot sell below cost. Accidentally I was so tired sometimes I made mistakes. And I would sell you know I would actually put into the computer the cost instead of the price or something. Yeah, so accidentally I was selling a few items below cost 15:58 me like a like a consumer is like perfect, perfect storm. 16:02 Yeah, you can come in, you know talking about looking for destinies you can just come in and looking for deal. So anyway, its competitors are watching me they noticed that they turned me into the state ABC board and this is a magical story and it's absolutely true story. So the Saturday before Thanksgiving, the courier journal, the big newspaper of Louisville was doing a story I'm sure it was going to end up on, you know, right next to the obituaries or something, nothing story, but they were in the building with a photographer. And just at that moment, on a Saturday morning, the state ABC showed up with three armed officers. And while the photographer and the courier Journal reporter were there, they literally arrested me and handcuffed me for selling alcohol below cost. And this ended up on the Sunday before Thanksgiving on the front page of the courier journal was some headline like young entrepreneur blows away the liquor industry selling products to cheeky 17:00 arrest. It's amazing that you get arrested for that 17:02 well and it was ridiculous because you know, within one hour they they you know somebody the supervisor was apologizing and they let me go and it ended up like three months later I paid like a $50 fine and you know, it was no problem but it put me on the front page of the newspaper and then of course all the suburbanites couldn't get there fast enough and it was Thanksgiving and we were we were a success from that point. 17:23 It tell me you gave that newspaper like frame somewhere in your 17:26 Yeah, I think that actually I don't have it on a wall and I've actually tried to research and I have to be more diligent But anyway, it's a it's a true story we got started and then that grew into a chain at one point of six discount liquor stores in the state of Kentucky and Northern Kentucky and for two up here and for loyal. It was a big chain and just to conclude the story about died lose track of time and maybe 1214 years ago, I was really very tired of being a corporate person. I'm not born to do that. I like being on the street. I like being in a register. I like You know being in the in the trenches and I wasn't happy I had like 350 employees and you know a lot of debt a lot that's a lot to manage it was a lot to manage to cities and and and you know, so it's dealing the lawyers and bankers and all the problems personnel problems that got big and blown up, got to my desk and I wasn't doing I was unhappy. And so I I like to express it as I jumped off the capitalist trade. And I sold five of the six stores because I really liked running a store and I kept the party source in Bellevue Newport right next to Cincinnati. And it was was 18:34 the reason for that was it because it was a very high traffic high volume or was it because you're like, I need to get a change at a level what was the 18:41 precisely very pressing on your on your part because that's exactly the two reasons so I felt it had the best future because Ohio still 25 years ago had state stores. So and so it was a no brainer if you were very, very close and we were at the first exit of the main main interstate interstate of The East End of Cincinnati and we are doing extremely well and I thought it could grow and be even greater store so I wanted to focus on it. And secondly was 100 miles from a local side stop working seven days a week, because I had a family had children. So those are the two reasons that I kept it and I love that store. And the party source today I'm happy to say is the week say that we believe it to be the largest single store in the United States alcoholic beverage store physically and as today about $48 million in business but of course, I had to divest it five years ago in order to become a distiller but it's I sold it to my employees I'm very proud of that. And they're doing very well today and have paid me back and and it's it's moving forward it's still a great store. 19:47 So while you were still on the retail side, was there ever a point where you had any mild regrets or saying like what if if I didn't get rid of these these five locations like could have grown bigger Could I have gotten a Because if you think of today of what's happening, you've got the total lines of the world that kind of buy up people like is there is there ever that kind of what if scenario in your head 20:08 no because and that just gets into personal philosophy, you know, the point of life to me is that just become rich. I think I think that's a root of a lot of problems today in corporate America and and and with our society in general there's too much greed and and it's all about me. So I enjoyed the entrepreneurial challenge and I liked working with people, a young team of employees as well as the customers and I love the freedom of owning my own store at that point you know, selling five of them I was debt free, so I could do what I wanted to do in the store and not have to do any short term thinking and so never looked back I have I'm happy to say I've always had a you know, very nice upper middle class lifestyle and by God that's enough. I mean, having some control over your life and and feeling that you're doing some good and that you're sharing enjoying some lives of your employees and being a good community member and caring about the environment and you know, having some balance in life and purpose and meeting, not just trying to make money and get bigger and bigger and bigger and die rich that never had any attraction to me. 21:14 So you're you're running one of the states not only just the state because you're here as you said, You're the first exit off of the coming off from Cincinnati in Kentucky. And it was it for a lot of people. It's it's a destination, it is a destiny, retail location. And at the same time, you're also like I said, it's huge. You're competing with the liquor barns in Louisville at this time. What was what was the determining factor to say I'm ready to hang this up and move to something new 21:42 well, and the liquor barns in Louisville were the original four of them were three of them were my my stores. Okay, so there we go. You know, so I mean that the circle goes around, but and they're good customer today and a valued customer of us today. The motivation Kenny was just Sometimes we do things and unconsciously our subconscious takes over. And just as whatever was 12 1415 years ago, I was just not happy and I call it my 71 aha moment because 70 one's the road between Cincinnati or Northern Kentucky and loyal and I was on it a lot. And then you know, had a lot of time to think and, you know, it just I wasn't happy and I wanted to make a change and I think subconsciously I knew that I was a little bit of a burnout I had been doing it at that point, retailing which is a very, very, very hard work and it is six, seven days a week and you know, all the holidays and so forth. So and fairly repetitious. You know, I was a buyer, I was a spirits buyer as well as the owner. And it's just the drill and it's, you know, as wonderful drill and I loved it, but it's intense and deals are coming at you and there's a lot of paperwork and and it's a routine that goes on and on and on. So I think subconsciously I was a little bit of a burnout at that point. I didn't want to retire. I love working and I feel that it's healthy for the mind. And I think retirement is like, announcing to your body that you're ready to die or something. So I really do believe that and so I was not at all interested in any of that. So, 23:12 you know, most people just get a Porsche. That's usually what, 23:16 you know, everybody thinks. I mean, when I sold the you have no idea what people said to me and what I know what they were not saying to me. You know, they were completely astonished and befuddled that a guy would take the party source doing $40 million a year debt free, you know, just a gravy train and not just like retire to a beach and on Florida or something and let a manager run it at least but to sell it, you know, sell it to the employees, you know, and take that risk on top of everything else was going to the spirits business, build a distillery madness, absolute madness, but anyway, JS men is my wonderful, fantastic well known a lot of your folks listeners will know who jr Smith is. So he's my co founder. I like to Thinking that way, although he's not an ownership, and Jay was my fine spirits buyer, the specialty spirits buyer at the party source. So he's worked for me for many years. And jokingly say, you know, can we're both watching this brown goods revolution happening and resurgence and resurrection. right under our nose. We see it at the party source every day of our allies. This thing's got legs. So, I credit Jay with, you know, why don't we open a distillery? Yeah, that's a great idea. Oh, it's funny. 24:31 Because they're not 24:32 any more good ones. You know, here we are running the party source, you know, you know, tracking money to the bank. Oh, that's a great idea. Jay. Well, along the way, it became a little more serious. So I do credit Jay and not myself with the idea for starting new Earth distilling. But it was it just appealed to my entrepreneurial side of me and the challenge aspect to get back into the game and and see what I could create and what my lifetime of experience in alcoholic beverages could do. And I love The idea of the challenge of starting from the ground up and building a team of young people, which has occurred and they're fantastic, and I just really wanted to have a second act in my life. And I actually and I'll tell you honestly, I thought, you know, this could be almost like semi retirement because once you start distilling, I mean, you just kind of sit around and watch barrels age, right? That's what I assumed would happen. You know, I'd wander in you know, noon or something and 25:26 get myself a glass Hey, you 25:28 know, how hard can it be you know, you're just gonna watch these barrels get old. So of course, it's proven to be way more challenging way more dynamic way more interesting than any of that. But that was the impetus was being at the party source seeing it happen. Realizing that why not Northern Kentucky all the action, the limited action there was seven or eight years ago was all in central Kentucky and just starting and loyal. You know, why not Northern Kentucky because we're right next to a city that's more than twice as large as local, very wealthy city and a sophisticated city. And, you know and the party source have done so well right next to Cincinnati, why wouldn't a distillery so we arrived decided to go ahead and take on the challenge and sell the party source and get back out there on the on the interest position where I just feel comfortable in a way that most people don't. 26:17 So you decide to sell the party source. Was this because you needed the funds to be able to start the distillery or is that is there another motivating factor? Well, 26:25 the main reason is in the three tier system, you cannot be a distiller or manufacturer, and a retail or wholesale or the that's what the three tier means I came across you can't be both. 26:36 I've also heard you could probably put your wife's name under the contract. I know you can get around. You mean that's another legal hurdle but yeah, 26:43 but but it's not true in Kentucky. And it is true in some other states, for instance, New York as a one store law and there's plenty of families that have four or five stores. But that is not true in Kentucky and we are way too big and way too visible to play any shitty shenanigans with the ABC and Too much is way too much as invested in it risk to take any of that on So, and I thought it was a great thing selling the store to the employees. And, you know, I take you know, when all of a sudden done I'll be very very very pleased with the success and the reputation and the great whiskey of new roof but I also will be proud that I've changed 100 or 200 lives and giving themselves some pride and some self some control over their lives as employees and an employee owned company, and a little nest egg. You know, I said when I retired when I sold the store, and my general manager john styles is a fantastic guy took a took it over. So we had an experience management team. I said there's only one thing I want, as long as I'm alive. When someone retires and they're getting like a six figure check. Even if it's just one of those big checks, you know for show. I want to him hand the check to that employee. That's what I want out of this deal because we're talking about you know, 15 $16 an hour employees. Maybe some Someday things go well and they seem to be after 20 years, some of them might be handing them a six figure retirement, you know, for people that are living paycheck to paycheck and I want to be, I want to be when that magic there when that magic moment happens. 28:13 Yeah, I mean, I think you're you're really wrapping up the epitome of what it is to be a better than, than most of the entrepreneurs that are out there that are after chasing that that big paycheck or chasing that big payday. Your personality is really showing through that it's a you're one of the good spirited people that are out there and, and trying to build something that's that's ultimately bigger than yourself. 28:34 So many other people. And I don't want to get on a tangent, but there's a big movement in the United States, called a lot of things. But there's chapters all over the United States called conscious capitalism, you know, then again, I don't want to get into a tangent. I'm not talking about bourbon. But the idea that capitalism doesn't have to be as raw and just ingredients selfish that you can care about the community and care about your employees. You can care about the environment. That the bottom line should involve all those stakeholders not just ownership so let's let's get back to bourbon let's 29:05 let's definitely get back to bourbon kind of talk about your, your introduction to it as well because I think we need to capture that because, you know, you had this very entrepreneurial mind going into it, Jay said, hey, there's this brown water revolution. But was there a point when you said like, you know, like, I'm from Kentucky, I enjoy bourbon. I like bourbon. You've worked in the stores. We're pushing bourbon to people or people to bourbon, like, kind of talk about your gravitation just towards the product itself. 29:33 Sure. And I'll be dead honest about all this. First of all, Jay and I are great pair and that is cofounders. Because Jay is a Trump has a tremendous palate. And he's also a tremendous historian of alcoholic beverages around the world. And he was the fine spirits buyer and he would sleuth out things that, you know, people in the Midwest certainly other than the two coasts had never heard of him brought in so he knew he has a network of people he knows about. around the world. So, Jay brings to new riff, the great depth and honest depth of knowledge and a profound palette, and, and sophistication about alcoholic beverages to, to our company. I don't bring any of that. You know, I mean, at the party source, we are phenomenal wine store, and I'm a knowledgeable amateur. That's my extent of it. So I feel I'm a knowledgeable amateur about brown goods. But no expert do not have a refined palette. I know my place and that's good too. So that's what I bring to the team, of course, the founder of the financial aspect and the team building and the long term strategy and perspective of where the industry is going and so forth. So we're very good team together. So I think that's been a core of how we've, you know, started new ref and where we want it to go with it. Can you remember your first taste of bourbon? My first taste of bourbon was probably like a lot of lot of your listeners It was and I do remember, unfortunately, I was in the backseat of a car when I haven't seen y'all know where this is going. Yeah, all bad. And it was I'll never forget it was JW dat in a pint bottle and drank it straight. And you know what happened in the backseat of that car, which I spent about three hours terribly drunk, and a happy cleaning up before I turned it back to my day. So hoping he would never know Chris, he knew instantly. But that was my first experience. Like, I'm sure many of your listeners. 31:31 Absolutely, absolutely. So let's talk about, you know, the breaking of the ground and trying to build the team here. I know you've talked about JA and bringing him in, but what does it take to find? The still the distillers, everything like that to actually start getting the business off the ground and as well as sourcing because I know you had source products that are beginning to 31:51 well, the wonderful, yes, I mean, again, we Jay and I are good team and I think in some ways, I'm a good leader and founder be I know my own weaknesses. And I know what I don't know, which is a famous line from the past know what you don't know. And so when we started, we decided to approach this as a very serious enterprise. We decided to approach it a scale, that we would command the presence of Greater Cincinnati, and tend to preclude competition from coming in. Our goal from the very beginning was to be one of the great small distilleries of the world. Knowing that would take decades perhaps to accomplish and who knows, it'll be a self congratulatory thing, no one's going to notice that but to play in the sand lot of some of the greatest stories of the world small ones, is our goal and remains to this day our goal. And so in order to do that, we wanted to do everything extremely well, right from the beginning and put the resources which I felt we had with the selling of the party source, to work to to wait as long as we needed to for Five years to start bringing out whiskey and to just go for it in terms of quality in our and to find a leadership position as a small distillery the United States. So knowing that we went out or I went out and found some great people to get started Kentucky's a wonderful resource, the best thing that I did, I did two great things. One is one of my very first hires after Jay was the person who would maintain our plant manager so that he was involved with the construction and every aspect of planning and knew where every pipe was going. And I think that's something that's overlooked by a lot of people is is is you know, is the the guts and the fabric and the the core and the maintenance of your of a very complex manufacturing plant. I knew enough to know to hire a great person who's with us Dean today and he does a super job. 33:52 Dean was actually helping us earlier trying to get the AC turned off. 33:56 He knows that he knows everything. He knows where all the skeletons are, but I mean he knows where every valve is in every pipe and he was part of the construction crew for the year and a half and the whole thing was money very well spent. Second thing I did was found Larry Ebersole, who's the maybe the most important distiller of American history that many people have never heard of. And Larry was the plant manager at Sega drums as you well know, Kenny, for 25 plus years, the head distiller I misspoke, the head distiller at sea drums, and he's the guy that invented the famous 95 five, right recipe that, you know, right? I know what it is, but it used to be, it's more of what is seen on the shelf, and it's wonderful juice and Larry is a brand bread distiller and a wonderful human being. I count him as a good friend, and he was newly retired and living in Hebrew one which is near the Cincinnati airport, which is in Kentucky, and so he's only like 20 miles away, and was kind of pointing it turned out being a consultant. So didn't know how to get started at it is in his backyard it was Yeah, as easy for eight. And so we are a wonderful thing. So he really threw himself into it. best thing I ever did. And with Larry being involved from the very beginning, we knew we would construct and we did construct a very efficient a very, very well thought through distillery and not make some of the mistakes that are easy to make. And secondly, and perhaps in the long run more definitely more important in the long run with Larry on board as our consulting master distiller he would train my Distilling Team which gave me the freedom to pick with his approval, who would be on that steering team and I very deliberately with Jays advice in this regard to we did not go to Maker's Mark or heaven hill or four roses and higher way and assistant Stiller, which is the standard procedure because in the end, distillers do the same thing day after day and forgive me I don't mean to ruffle any feathers traditionally, at least they don't tend to be a very imaginative lot. 36:03 Don't get me Don't break. What's more, don't don't fix what's not broken. 36:07 People want to you want Maker's Mark, you don't want Maker's Mark with cream cheese on it, you know, it's, it's, it's appropriate and it's what they're the corporation's want. So if we hired someone from Maker's Mark, we'd end up with Maker's Mark north. And in truth, that's what happens, you know, when, when folks go from disorder to story, so what I knew and with Jace help, I knew I wouldn't have known this on my own. And Larry to fermentation is the key and distillers tend to poo poo. Traditional distillers tend to poo poo poo, fermentation, they don't pay that much attention to it. But fermentation if you don't have a great fermentation, you're not going to end up with great whiskey in the end. The people the folks that really understand this are brewers 36:52 absolutely their people, they know what they're Do they know. So 36:55 we deliberately went out and hired a fantastic Brewer in this case. It was pretty Ryan sprints who will absolutely be known if he's not already to so many people as a great young distiller and will truly be in the Hall of Fame someday. And Brian had been a small, small Brewer with a microbrewery in Cincinnati and for about eight years had worked at Sam Adams and I'm not sure how many people know that Sam Adams is brewed in Cincinnati not in Boston. 37:23 Obviously I'm learning something today and 37:24 it is it's the old beautiful plant and 95% of Sam Adams is burden sensing that 37:29 now that name I've heard of the beautiful because it's like a Northern Kentucky kind of 37:32 well Cincinnati Cincinnati kind of it but but the plant was closed and And anyway, so Sam Adams owns it. So he worked for Sam Adams over there and a serious industrial plant. So he brought to us when I hired him and he wanted out because he's not a corporate kind of guy and he wanted to get back into you know, brewing so to speak, or, you know, the guts of doing it not just the big industrial and it was a unionized plan is to this day, unionized by anyone at different scale. So we found, you know, we know so many people in Kentucky and Cincinnati we found Brian and recruited him one very hard, eager to come in here to take the challenge when he saw how real we were, and to be part of a startup. And he just brought that fantastic imagination and knowledge of fermentation and an understanding of grains and malts that traditional distillers are just very linear and very blinders on 38:26 dance. So get your percentages, you're throwing your yeast. 38:30 Yeah, see you in a few days. Let's see. Yeah, well, every day do it every day and they make some great whiskey at all these heritage distilleries Believe me, I'm totally understand that. But we wanted to do a little riff or our own little tweaks and things. And with Larry able to train. It gave us the freedom to assemble that team, so no one in the distillery other than Larry had ever worked into this story before, but with Larry there, we did it as a team and we have a fantastic group of Six distillers today they're all career. They're all doing a super job. And Larry is he trained them, he stepped back. And that's just he's he was. He's our founding father in many ways. And Larry was very, is obviously very rice centric. It was the 95 five, right? He's so proud of and so and we happen to fit our tastes as well. So New Earth is truly a rice centric distillery. And I will, I've said this many times, we make fantastic bourbon. But I think our long term reputation becoming one of the great small distilleries of the world will have a lot to do with, with rise and rise of fence, interesting niche that I think we can play in that sandlot very, very well and be extremely well known around the world for our rye. And maybe stay a little bit away from the great heritage global distilleries you know in the future because you're we're all going to need a niche. 39:56 So did Larry help you out with choosing the mash bills as well for everything you're doing or is that more of a consensus from the group? There are more craft distilleries popping up around the country now more than ever. So how do you find out the best stories and the best flavors? 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Nestled in the shadow of Pikes Peak, owner and founding distiller Michael Myers grew up on the family farms in Georgia and Tennessee, across the country side defined by rolling hills, horses and whiskey. He set out to create a flagship whiskey that evoke the Wild West. A cowboy walk into a bar saying, Give me a whiskey and the bartender slamming down a bottle, a bottle of 291 Colorado whiskey, find a bottle near you at 291 Colorado whiskey calm. Write it like you stole it, drink it like you own it. Live fast. Drink responsibly. So did Larry help you out with choosing the mash bills as well for everything you're doing? Or is that more of a consensus from the group? 41:50 Larry was the leader of making those decisions, but it was it was part of the education of the Distilling Team to with jasmine. So yes, very much our Leader of the committee, if you will, that originally picked our Nashville's now. It's taken over by our Distilling Team and Brian now galera likes to come and taste and and offer some thoughts if we run into something new every now and then that's really past our abilities. We call her and he, you know, he really thinks very fondly of us. And we were his first client and, and I think he's enjoying our growth and, and is very optimistic about our future. So 42:27 well before we start talking about you know a lot about your bourbon because I know you're doing crazy stuff with barrels and types of grains and malts and stuff like that. Let's talk about the okay, because I know you're sourcing at one point, what was the what was the gist? I mean, that's the thought process that a lot of startups go through and they think, Okay, well, let's get money rolling in. We'll buy some barrels will bottle it up. And that'll be a way to kind of build some revenue. Is that was that your thought process going into it as well? No. So least you're frank about. 42:57 Always be frank. I mean, the nice thing is you're dealing with The owner I don't have any, anybody I have to answer to and I'm getting older. So I'm pretty, pretty straightforward. Know, the answer was we were going for quality and we knew I mean, remember I you know, I own the largest liquor store in the United States I was the spirits buyer, I, I saw the cannery I saw the dishonesty of the, of the brown goods business I, I hated all of it and saw it from the beginning that the not disclosing not disclosing your source charging too much, you know, in a pretty perfume bottle for one year old whiskey and, and, you know, hurting the reputation of all craft distilleries, I saw all the bad things that have happened and continue to happen in this industry. So we wanted no part of it. That's not how you build a great small the story of the world. So from the beginning, we were always going to be transparent and incredibly open with everyone about everything we did. I had fortuitously bought a J's urging 350 barrels From MCP years couple years before we even thought about the distillery concept Oh, wow. So I had I hit Yeah, let's just you know, we'll bottle this someday for the party source. And so I you know, I wish of course I bought thousands. I hate to tell you they were like, I really hate to say this, they were like $375 a barrel. Oh 44:20 man. And you know, we've seen a in the price list now, 44:24 thousands and thousands of dollars if you could even get them and they were already like three years old when I bought them. So, fortuitously I had those barrels and we never bought any other barrels. So it's only 350 and the idea of having those barrels and okay i, we deliberately released it very, very slowly. The idea was just to have some bourbon in the distillery a good bourbon, because it's it's marketing and brand building. People come to this story, like new f1 it's two years old. They know intellectually that were too young to have great whiskey, but they still want to taste great whiskey. They still think you should have a final bourbon sitting around. So we did. And we were very clear it was okay i that we sourced, it wasn't ours, we just bottled it, dumped it and bottled it. And we deliberately rationed it out to last until our bourbon was available. And then we always intended and we did kill the brand because we we don't want to have anything to do with source goods. So it served its purpose extremely well. And then as you well know, Kenny, in the end, when it was 12 years old, it was a terrific value. And when people heard that it was ending, you know, became a cult item and they went crazy about it and it's still a little bit of one of those legendary things, but the purpose is never to have any source goods and that the sales of 300 or so barrels you know, for the size of new riff never moved the needle as far as helping us to survive. We we survived on my proceeds from the party source and on contract is still in for until we had our own whiskey to sell 46:00 Yeah, absolutely. So contract distilling is it's still a part of what your your daily businesses diminishing 46:03 all the time that the idea of the contract is still in was to survive. Until we became till whiskey could be four or five years old, serve that purpose, it was maybe about 45% of our budget and allowed us to be completely full which distillery in production, the story is much better when it's running, you know, at full steam, then turn it on and turn it off the equipment and so forth. So it serves that purpose. And gradually we're we're getting out of the, as we can afford to we're getting out of the contract distilling and taking back all those barrels for our own. You know, stock 46:39 your own aging and everything like that. 46:41 Yeah, we're doing a little bit and we'll do less every year. 46:44 So four years was kind of your your mark, when when new riffs started coming out. Was it for because you felt like it was ready? Or was it for because you said I think this is to the point where we don't have to worry about like, at this point, we don't to worry about putting age statements on the bottle. By TTD law so what was the what was the idea on for there? And were you nervous? 47:06 Yes, I was nervous. Of course. 47:09 JS man is the answer. JA again as our co founder and fantastic and brings that knowledge and Jays idea which I bought into and the rest of the team did from the beginning was let's not release any whiskey till it can be bottled in bond Jays, a historian and he's a lover things past very, very smart about the future too, of course, and, and current distilling, but felt that the, you know, years ago he felt that the bottled in Bond was was right for revival and that the original, the first federal law about food and drug purity United States was about alcohol in 1897, the bottled in Bond Act and Jay felt that the incipient incipient revival bottled in Bond was a fantastic movement and we wanted to be very much a family Remember that so we always intended to wait to be at least four years old. And then along the way we were very, very pleased with Larry results helped to, to be tasting things as you go along and things were moving Well, we liked our juice. We liked the way it was aging. So along the way we realized that getting to be at least four years ago, we were going to have a very credible whiskey out there. And I wanted to and I made sure that it was at a very credible and easygoing price because again, as a retailer, I understood marketing and sales and pricing, and wanted our whiskey to come out at a premium level and pricing, which you deserve this and also is a brand marker, but wanted to always make it an appropriate fair price. One, one click above the the global heritage companies, but not not at the kind of pricing that I've always found repugnant as a retailer and I certainly did as a consumer as well. 48:54 And not only that, as I mean, you come out with this the four year old product in right away. It started It's like kind of taking over a lot of the bourbon culture and the bourbon. mindshare, because everybody's amazed at the taste of a four year old product I don't think there's a lot of or really there's any other product out there today that can really say that it it competes of what new roof does at its at its age, like is there something that you can say that you can attribute that to? Sure or weapon of their sprinkled dust that you're putting? 49:25 sprinkle dust is the water? Yeah, it really is Kenny and and that's a nice story too. Because we first started when we plan and we're very close to breaking ground on the distillery we didn't know about our water source, our water source turned out to be an aquifer the high river aquifer 100 feet under under the distillery property and we didn't know about it when we first started planning but along the way someone said something to Jay you know you know there's there's a lot of water you guys gonna do a well and Jay ran with it. He's smart enough to listen and think you know and that's Jays personality. I mean he's a scientist and interested in everything and he thought I'm going to find out what the heck's under us. And we did we did we ran a test well, and then worked with the University of Kentucky to to analyze and understand what was going on underneath us. So geologically, it was just turned out to be a bonanza. Because the the aquifer and brief and I'm no stem person myself, so forgive me. But the aquifer essentially is a almost inexhaustible pool of water under the far northern part of Northern Kentucky, and it's created because the glacier stopped and created the Ohio River and created the hills of Cincinnati. That geologic force continues to the state of pump want to push water under the Ohio River, and it's going through sand silt, and guess what limestone and then Northern Kentucky from our site right on the river. You go straight up hills to go into southern can lucky to get away from Northern Kentucky. So as you go south, it's going up here. So we're in a bowl and all and as you look and you see the highways and the Brock along the highways, where they do the cuts and the passes and so forth, it's all limestone rock. So it's all coming from two directions and settling. And it's under us in this magnificent huge aquifer under our feet. And it turned out we did all the testing, and it came in and it's magnificent limestone filter, naturally filtered water. It's it had no lead, which is you know, the great thing. It's high calcium from the limestone, very high mineral content, water, and it's 58 degrees year round. So we don't have to have a cooling tower. We're a very environmentally healthy and successful distillery and that water that putting that mineral water right into our mash bill, and you can drink it, we've all drunk it's just hard water. hard water tastes like crap. But it's great for to still it. And I would contend and obviously if someone's going to jump up out of this microphone Want to choke me but I believe it or not, Northern Kentucky new roof has the best water in Kentucky for distilling because the fact of the matter that the marketing people don't want you to know is that almost every other and perhaps every other significantly sized distillery in the state of Kentucky uses city water or river water and then they filter the hell out of it turned it into our water so they're putting into their mash bills whatever they're tell showing you in your advertising, 52:30 you know, whether it's coming from some sort of wheel that's spinning in 52:34 a lake or something absolutely in this wonderful spring and all that which long ago they outgrew you know the whole thing. But you know mean Buffalo Trace Polson the Kentucky River you know, the brown Forman polls for local municipal water I can go on and on and on and i'm not i'm not slamming them in any way they make fantastic whiskey. But we are bringing a natural high mineral content, awesome water into our message. Bill and God, darn it, I think that's when you only have like three ingredients going into your mash bill and one of them changes dramatically. That means something and then you layer on that Kenny, you know the the fact that we're all about quality at every turn and you know the the corn comes from a family farm the same one that for roses uses in Indiana and we can go on and on and on we we come off the still at less than the maximum we go into the barrel at 110. Instead of the legal maximum 125 we use 18 and 24 months aged in oak staves instead of the standard, you know, barrel at $100 more a barrel than other people. We go on and on and on. It's all about quality at every turn. But it starts with that water. So there are very good reasons. It's not by chance that our four year old thank you for saying so i think is a very good product. And you're going to want to get to this it's going to be fantastic when it's seven eight and 10 53:54 Oh yeah, that's what we'll save that here for a second because I kind of want to know your your plans for the future with that, but You know, back to this, you know, let's let's rewind it back another 1520 years or maybe 25 years, when you bought the location of the party source was it? You look at it now like just dumb luck. 54:11 Yeah, we bought the land and the distillery for your listeners that don't know, the distillery is right in front of the party source and we're right on right on the river. Across from Cincinnati, you can't get any closer to Cincinnati. But that was the point of the retail store, because Ohio had state stores and 80% or more of our customers came from Ohio. And that's why the party source grew to be such a large store. It's a it's a natural for Northern Kentucky but it's because we had all of Cincinnati coming to us so and then when I wanted to do the distillery the original plan was just Gee, this is a nice, I own I own some property. And that's another story too. I actually had to take out a levee and build a wall, a flood wall and so forth. million dollar flood wall in order to get more property. But the point was, I thought it'd be a great location. Very well known right in front of the source and there was a symbiotic symbiotic relationship you know people could come on a tour to see us and then walk into this fantastic whiskey store and shop and it's turned out to be like that but dumb luck in terms of the water absolutely dumb luck 55:14 it's just like being in Texas and somebody knock on your door me like oil in your backyard we'd 55:18 like to buy your land Yeah, and you just scratch under your armpits and go all the way down 55:25 so let's talk a bit about like the little bit of future state right because Sure, today we there's a lot of stuff out there it's a lot of for your product. There's people like myself we go we do barrel pics here. It's a four year product. I know that a lot of people we love it as is. However there's always this can't wait until it's six it's eight to 10 years so kind of talk about what your your future plans are to kind of stocks in these barrels. Sure. 55:52 Yeah, it's been it's been a but but first of all, it is a great ride and the four year of the bottle and bond is a wonderful product and will never release any plans. product from our distillery any whiskey that's less than bottled in bond for a year. And, and, and, and hundred proof and or it'll be barrel proof every one of the two. So, and that's why we've been and that's why we're always be because we think that's, we think that's the highest quality expression and that's what we're all about to, to hopefully become one of the great small distilleries of the world. Which by the way, even if we fall short, hey, it's great. I mean, life should be about lofty goals and and trying your damn this and, you know, if we fall short, and you know, we're not quite there. It still is a worthy endeavor. But signs are decent that we might, we've taken a few steps in that direction and we might just get there and 10 or 12 years in some form of recognition from the public and writers in our own self assessment, but 56:48 you really don't want to retire. Do you? 56:50 Know I actually, I'd like to stick around. honest truth is I'd like to stick around long enough in an extremely active role will stay a family business by In the business, everybody here is career we're not selling out, we're not going, we have no interest in one of the big boys buying a minority share, we're surviving. We're getting through the roughest part right now, economically, and we're going to stay 100% independent, because that's really the only way you can really achieve greatness is having incredibly long term thinking, and just be totally disinterested in short term results. So, and having that freedom of without any corporate decision making because whatever anyone says, nothing will change, we're going to buy you out and nothing's going to change. None of your people are going to change everything to say, everything's different a year later. We all know it. It's just it's a fact out there. So we're going to stay independent. And, and that's very important. So we've taken some steps. I mean, I think the fact Kenny, that I'm sure you're aware, we went out to our very first competition we ever went to, because again, why go to all these little county fairs or whatever, just so you can say, award winning, nobody. It doesn't mean anything to the like your listeners. And there's the People that we really care about that will establish our reputation. So we waited. We think like a lot of people that the San Francisco International spirits competition is the main spirits competition. It's an arguable issue but certainly one of the top couple we think it's the 58:15 you came on with a few medals from 58:17 it. Well, the thing is, we submitted all five of the products, we make three whiskeys and two gins and all five of them one double goal. You know, it's unheard of. 58:28 It's It's like going to the Olympics and just like it's 58:30 crazy. I mean, let's put it in context. And, and I'll abstract this real fast and backpedal. But you know, this year factually, Buffalo Trace submitted 21 entries and got seven double goals, numerous submitted five inches and got five double gold. We are not the equivalent above Buffalo Trace far better to story. You know, and they are, in my opinion, the best in the business. But the thing is, we've taken a step toward that goal. We you know, so We feel very encouraged to have some exterior validation. And it's so we're not just in a circle, you know, talking to each other about these things. So anyway, we started to take a step now to get back and sorry that sometimes I run on but it's a very passionate subject. We know to put up the very best whiskey that we can and to really have a very high world reputation as good as our four year old is and it's fairly priced as we will always keep it. We have to have older whiskey. So we've this year, I mean, it's all it gets back to a matrix of economics. Our first year of release, we held back only we held back 20% of everything we make to get older. Next year, we're budgeted for 33 a full third of everything we make, to get older. And what I will say now, which is actually the first time I've ever seen this public So it's a credit to the the reach that that that you guys have and the the interest in the students of your listeners, we're actually going to do a small expansion of the distillery. And we'll get back to that if you want. But the point that I want to make right now is the only purpose of that expansion is not to make more four year old or not to make some more money in the short run. It's to have older whiskey and a lot of it. So we are going to make a stand toward older whiskeys will always have a great four year old bottled in bond product at an extremely fair price. It may not go up in price for 10 years, stay at $40 fine with me. And then eventually we'll have a very fairly priced will have older whiskies and personally we'll see if things change. I'm all for age statements. I think again and and this is really where the future of new roof is going to be his older whiskies a great entry level that is fantastic. For cocktails and it's just fantastic for for sipping on without talking about it. But it'll be the seven year old eight year old, maybe 10 year old and whatever in very in everything that we make getting older that will put us on the map and will really I think make us proud and I think your listeners are going to really want to have someday we're going to try and have enough of it that it's not this high cult high scarcity kind of item I'm not saying that it'll be on a shelf but we want to have a lot more out there you know thousands of cases of older whiskey and not just dribble it out to people 1:01:35 makes more people are makes more sense people to start joining the Rangers program then so they get those was inside. 1:01:41 The Rangers program is ended 1:01:42 but the whistle as it I didn't know that. 1:0

Following your passion is a grind, and that goes with running a business too. But you just don't run a business based on gut feeling alone. You need to have a sort of feedback dashboard for your know if you're grinding it in the correct direction and doing it properly. In this interview, you'll hear from Parker Stevenson, a partner from Evolved Finance, the usual problems an entrepreneur has, and how having a specific niche and a specific target market can help you solve those problems and grow your business more efficiently. Whether you're a longtime online businessman or someone that's just starting, if you're having issues with bookkeeping, this is the podcast for you. ---------- Automated Transcript Below: Dean Soto 0:01 Hey, this is Dean Soto with FreedominFiveMinutes.com. And we're here again with another freedom in five minutes episode. Today's topic is this evolving your bookkeeping with evolved finance that and more coming up. Alright, cool. So today's podcast, I'm going to go nuts on this one just because this is something that I have needed for a long time and bookkeeping is not the most sexy, not the most exciting thing but but when you have an online business where you're using PayPal, you're paying affiliates and refers different types of commissions. I have a whole boatload of sales coming in from stripe and PayPal and all these different places, depending on where my customer wants to how they actually want to pay. And the big problem that comes up is pretty much every bookkeeper out there that I've ever met has no clue what to do with PayPal, how to reconcile PayPal, how to what to do with affiliate income, the revenue that's coming in, going out and all that other stuff. And oh my gosh, I was I was so happy to find Parker Stephenson from evolve finance because their platform their their service, their agency actually solves this very, very specific problem. So Parker, how's it going, man, I appreciate you coming on. Parker Stevenson 1:39 Dean. It's my pleasure, man. That might be like one of the best intros we've ever had some good bookkeeping. Dean Soto 1:47 Well, it's crazy. It's crazy. You you solve a very specific niche that that literally nobody else business wise, what has this pain unless they already doing a couple of things. They're using PayPal? They're they're selling a service on it or something online. And they're trying they're having to pay pay affiliates. And it is it is crazy, that there's nobody else doing what you guys are doing. And and so, so I that intro is like I literally it's it's just me, like happy as a clam, because you saw me my pain, man. Parker Stevenson 2:28 Well, I think that that's something we talk to our clients a lot about, because I think, especially with an agency business or a service based business, the more you can hone and focus it in the better. And I think with a lot of you know, I'd say financial, just financial professionals, financial businesses, whether it's accounting or bookkeeping, the business model has to be so broad, right? Like the bookkeeper you're working with could be working at on a dentist office could be working on a restaurant and they could be working on your business. There's just more knowledge than any one person could have and have expertise on. Yeah, that. I think it's just such a strength that may seem like it limits your market. And I would imagine for a lot of people in our industry, they go oh, but then I'm not going to have enough clients to work with. But the reality is, there's plenty of all I mean, the online business space is booming. We don't need to do bookkeeping, for any other types of businesses, because we're going to have more business than we can handle for a really long time. Just in this niche alone. So kudos to my business partner Corey for figuring this out back in 2010. Dean Soto 3:33 Yeah, so cool event. it's it's a it's it's great, man. So you, you. So I want to talk a little bit about you. You actually hopped on this bandwagon with Corey, as you were working with a pretty pretty well known company. Can you talk a little bit about that? Parker Stevenson 3:54 Yeah. So before I started working with Korea, double finance. I was working for Adidas golf here in San Diego. It's like the only part of Adidas like their big headquarters for the US is in Portland. And then the corporate headquarters is in Germany. And so I was actually musician back in the day thought I was gonna be a rock star. When I was living in LA and that didn't work out. I went, Okay, what's my other thing I really love and it's like, well, I love golf. I was been a golf addict my whole life. So I'm like, I'm from San Diego. I'm like, San Diego is essentially what Detroit was for the auto industry, San Diego is for the golf industry. So I was like, I'm going to go work for the best golf manufacturer I can find or I can get a job. And sure enough, I got it at Taylor. It was tailor made Adidas golf at the time, and had a really great five year experience there. Like I was saying, before we got started was kind of like my, I'd say like my master's degree and business like I just learned so so much from working there. And especially the position I was in as a merchandiser. And as kind of like a product category manager, I learned so much about how a business functions from all the different places with a lot of it being around numbers to like, there was definitely a lot of financial aspects to what I did that by the time I kind of realized the corporate environment wasn't really my bag, and some doing something more entrepreneurial, was more up my alley, that by the time Corey and I started having serious discussions around how I could get involved in the business, and we could start to become partners, I felt really prepared to be able to not just jump in and help him grow of all finance, but also be able to provide some insights for the clients we serve, that maybe other people who have only been in the online space wouldn't be able to provide. Yeah, Dean Soto 5:40 yeah. See, that's cool that what a what a, what a neat experience, because you're you're literally getting a play with $50 million worth of product and figure out one learn how how to even merchandise and sell and position these things. And then, and it's not like you you're not even, it's not your money. And you you're you're essentially just just learning from literally the best. And taking that from from there. And then going and working with Corey over it evolved finance, how did that transition happen? Where, where? How did you even like, with Corey doing what he was doing? Like, have the aha moment of like, I really want to go and do this Parker Stevenson 6:28 instead? I know, that's a great question too. Because sometimes I'm like, I don't even understand how I don't understand, like how we got to this place. But Corey and his wife, Anna, are actually really good friends with my wife like they grew up together. So I've known Corey Nana for a long time now ever since I met my wife, which was about 12 years ago. And so I knew they had this business. But it was just like, cool. You guys have a business. It seems like it's doing well. Good for you guys. But I was very much into my career. But once I kind of got was getting close to that five year mark at Adidas, I was starting to feel like there wasn't really a next step for me like I was, for my personality. I'm a generalist, I like to know about a lot of different things, which is why I like the merchandising position. But it was so straight. It was a very stressful, crazy job. Like a lot of people that had that role before me didn't stay in it very long. Like there was a lot of people I stayed in that position. And so I sort of realized, like, getting into an entrepreneurial position would allow me to kind of have my business add put to work, because, you know, obviously I'd have to learn bookkeeping. And I started at very humble beginnings with Corey. But the more Corey and I talked, the more we realized, all right, he can teach me the book eat, like the specific intricacies of the service we provide the client, but I'd be able to bring in a new perspective, like being more of a future thinking business development sort of mind, I think kind of felt like hey, like, I just don't, I just can't help but think we'd be able to like double, triple quadruple this business, just putting our strengths together. Yeah. And that was the really good thing that I think Corey, and I realized is that Korea is very different skills than I have. And so that's what's made our partnership so strong, and what's allowed us to work so well together. And so just kind of realizing our personalities match well, him and his wife kind of telling me like, hey, these are all the things we have going on. We have all these clients we can't support right now, if you come on and start supporting them, and then we'll start to hire a team. It just started, I think we just saw, you know, three, four years down the road, like we could build a real team. And I'm really like, he's already had so much demand just happening that I'm like, I don't have a business idea. I have no idea what kind of business I want to start. And I think what I've realized is I'm really good at taking so even being a creative person being a musician. Yeah. But I think I was really good at taking the initial vision they had and be able to add and build upon that because of my experience at Adidas. So it seems crazy. I took a massive pay cut. And you know, it took a couple years for us to really hit our stride. But it's been like so worth it. And the business is really thriving. Now that we have done a lot of the work to make the business more successful. Yeah, Dean Soto 9:19 that is awesome. It is. Yeah. See, I love that. I love that story. The so with. So once once, like, I want to talk. Okay, so there's two things we're going to kind of colliding in my head right now. One is I'm like, you know, what were some of the things that you guys had to do to actually start scaling this business. But before that, I kind of I think, I think I want to give the audience really, they hear why I'm so excited. But I kind of want you to give the description of that. What you guys the big problem you guys solve? Because I know my problems. And I'm sure you mean I'm I'm sure you have kind of a better way of putting out that that that message but yeah, so like, what makes you guys so different from every other bookkeeper that's out there? Parker Stevenson 10:19 Well, that's what got me interested in the business to begin with is exactly what I'm about to explain. We were talking a little bit about it before. I I never thought I'd get involved in a bookkeeping business man, like I that just wasn't my Mo. Like, I've told our clients, I don't try to talk a whole lot about it. But I told her clients like I'm not a fine, I needed to get get a degree in finance. And the reality is bookkeeping isn't rocket science. Yeah, it's not. But just for me, having been a musician, like a guy that was going after my passions, I want to work in the golf industry, I want to work in the music industry, like I wanted to do this stuff that I thought was cool, but keeping the Nazi. But as I got older and more mature, I realized that stuff, you know, following your passion becomes a grind no matter what it is. And so what matters is working with people you like feeling fulfilled from the work, I know, for me feeling of service to other people, feeling like I can make an impact wherever I'm at, like that becomes really important. And so when Corey was kind of telling me about what they were doing it of all fit finance, even though I wasn't like a bookkeeping expert at that point. I was like, Is there anyone else doing what you're doing? And he's like, not really, like we were talking about, like, our niche is so specific, that we are solving a problem that we've seen repeatedly Now, over the years, because we've talked with I mean, I've been on so many calls since I started the business, hundreds of entrepreneurs. And that has taught us so much about what the struggles our clients have had before they start working with us. So over the years, we've just honed down our service more and more like when Corey got started, we kind of did all of the bookkeeping things. And now we're only focusing on the bookkeeping, things that we can be really, really, really good at and make the most impact on and we've built all our systems and processes around that. But this is kind of like if any, if the listeners can kind of take away something from this is that from working with such a specific niche, again, I hear the same problems over and over again, and we understand what our clients are going through number one, because we run an online business, as well. So that helps. But secondly, because we built a service that does fit in niche. So specifically in solves such a specific problem, it's easier to relate to your clients, and it's easier to wow them, and to reduce the stress and create excitement around solving that problem for them, especially because they haven't been able to find a solution anywhere else. So that alone is such a competitive advantage over the experience our clients have had working with other bookkeepers because it just it's it's nothing sexy, just understanding their problem having a service that addresses that problem, like dead on we don't, you know, I think sometimes some small businesses kind of skirt around with their messaging or don't get focused enough on what they're really trying to accomplish with their service or with their product. And that's just one thing that we're very lucky to have figured out a long time ago is this like, taking care of the books for an online business properly, and then helping our clients to understand what those numbers mean? It's simple when I say it like that. But the reality is, if you've worked with an accountant worked with the bookkeeper work with any financial professional, a lot of them just don't get that they don't understand that customer service is important. They don't understand that the relationship with their client is super important. And I'm not trying to like crap on anyone who has a accounting business or bookkeeping business, like, I'm sure there's other ones out there that have good customer service experiences. But our clients, when they come to us, they haven't. And so all those pieces of just no one else serving this niche, us being able to really hone in our service, because we know this niche so well. Like, that was the opportunity. And it's not it's not like we have a new app like this crazy new app, or like it's something super revolutionary. It's just innovating, what's been a very old, sort of unchanged service and catching it up to modern times, essentially. And that, for me was the reason why I was excited to jump in. Because it's like, we essentially have no competition. And we have a super specific target market. Like it doesn't get any better than that. Dean Soto 14:29 Yeah, no, for sure. I love I love it. I still remember, the first time I had so I went from from it was what was it called outright. And then it turned into GoDaddy bookkeeping. And then that was like when that was that was like when I was just starting out in my business. And it was I didn't need QuickBooks as soon as I went to QuickBooks because I had to do when I became a Subchapter S. LLC, and, and I was doing a lot more comments. It's stuff that that online entrepreneurs face. I was like, holy crap, I literally can, I don't even understand how to reconcile, at the end of the month, this doesn't make sense to me, and everything like that, I've hired a bookkeeper to just explain to me how to do all of this stuff for my for my thing, and she, she was literally like, Oh my gosh, like, you're all messed up like this, I'm not used to this. And I'm like, that doesn't help. Like, it doesn't help me at all. And so, so like, and that have almost happened pretty much over and over with people going, just not understanding a lot of the stuff like the affiliate commissions and, and, and PayPal reconciling and things like that. And so even just in your messaging, it's like, bam, like, that's, that's my problem, like, and it's cool how you guys have done that. And, and even though it might be a little scary to do that, you're really speaking to a lot of people just with that messaging and pitching down like that. Parker Stevenson 16:10 Yeah, and that's a key to I think any really successful online business, I mean, there's more competition online than there's ever been. So the more you can find your specific people, like even if it seems like a really small audience, speak to them directly and clearly have the confidence to have your messaging, speak directly there because it's taken us a long, a long time to really build our copy on our website and our messaging, through our content and all that to just be so focused and direct to talk just to the people that need to hear it, right like not the people that are like and maybe take it or leave it, we're talking to people like your team that are like, oh, I've struggled with this, I'm not getting the support we need. And I think that's the one thing I want to explain because like your your situation, I'd like for you to be doing your books in the early stage of your business fine. Like it's an extra expense that if you're just getting started and just trying to make some money, manage it in a spreadsheet, like but we never recommend any like entrepreneur, try to learn how to use bookkeeping software, like you gotta go make money like make, you need to be spending all of your time and energy around finding clients, building your leads, like figuring out how to drive revenue, that keep your finances simple in the early stages. And once money starts coming in. That's when you hire someone else to do the books because that's, that's a skill set that for you, as a business owner to take the time to learn how to do properly, which again, even to find the resources to teach you the way we would want to do it for an online business, it's just the chances are slim, you're going to get the right tutorials. Anyways, it's a skill set that took me it took me a year to get really good at really doing the books for our clients. And that was after the support of you know, Corey and an employee, Susan, that we've had that who's been with the business for a really long time. And now I live and breathe this stuff, I can do it in my sleep. But no one running a business that's on a bookkeeping business should know how to do this stuff in their sleep, they should be outsourcing that to someone like us who actually knows how to do it, right. And the thing is, with bookkeeping, there's so much room for interpretation, like that's kind of the frustrating part is that every bookkeeper is going to do it differently, they're going to set up your chart of accounts differently and your profit and loss statements differently. Some of them are going to do cheats to kind of like sneak around having to do a lot of manual labor to do it raw, you know, like so that aspect of this industry to is difficult because it's hard to find someone that's going to, again, have the understanding of your business well enough to know what needs to be done right? And where can you be a little more efficient. And again, I it obviously works for our business, but anyone else who's listening, especially if you have an agency, a service or anything like that, like, Just don't be afraid to hone that service down to a specific specific problem, like you don't have all of the problems for every business, just have one target market, get in that niche and solve that problem really well. And, you know, we've had nothing but referrals, like we just started marketing, in the last six months really like really trying to push there. And we could still like we don't need it, we just want to grow faster. But when you do such a good job, and you are so good at solving that one problem, people are going to talk about it, people are going to want to share it and especially in the early stages of a new business. It's a damn great way to make sure you start getting you know, more clients down the road. Unknown Speaker 19:36 Yeah, that is cool, man. I Dean Soto 19:37 love it. I love the I love the fact that you went from being a musician, to working at Adidas and wanting to be wanting wanting to be like this. You know, rub shoulders with these really, you know, awesome celebrities and everything like that. And even through just from nicking down and doing what you're doing with the bookkeeping. You actually have literally, seriously like one of my don't tell my wife one of my crushes from from the 90s with the matrix, you as one of your customers, Carrie, boss. I know I as soon as I saw I saw her they're like, Oh my god, this is crazy. What? And so that's pretty. That's a cool little story. Yeah. Parker Stevenson 20:24 Well, and that's the thing is like, I think the world is changing so much with technology and what the internet's allowing people to do and entertain me think about entertainment changing. I mean, she's obviously been extremely successful. But think about goop. You know, and what, what's her name? Who has a group, I'm terrible at names, but Gwyneth Paltrow, you know, she makes a great living as an actress and as a celebrity. And she starts this eat calm lifestyle website that's blown up. Like I think even people who are already in the spot, are looking for ways to connect with their audiences more looking for ways to share maybe knowledge I can carry Anne's situation. She's like this super highly trained meditation perfect professional, she's a badass yoga instructor like she she has this whole other aspect of her life that she's sort of kept out of the limelight that now she's like, starting a business around, right like and bringing in bringing interest in. And in all of our and and what's interesting is like in this industry, a lot of our clients are like little celebrities within their own right, right. Like they all, they all have their audiences that follow them and are looking to them for advice and guidance and buy their products. And that's like, I kind of look at the way our clients run their businesses now, kind of like back in the days of my space when I was in the band, where it's like, everyone's trying to, like, get as many people to like their MySpace page, and, you know, click, click on the page and listen to the songs and see the song count. And in a lot of ways, that's kind of what everyone's doing with the small businesses, because I think Adidas has the power of brand awareness, right, like everyone knows the three stripes and knows what a Adidas logo looks like, or knows what a coke logo is, right? They don't, they don't have to worry, those kinds of huge brands don't have to worry about awareness. But when you're running a small business, you might only have someone's attention for a short period of time. And so during that short period, you need to make sure you're making an impact with whatever content you have, whatever your website same. And inevitably, a lot of especially these business owners we have that have more personality type branded businesses, if they do a good job of that they kind of build fans, they build followers that start to trust them and want to follow them either for entertainment purposes, or educational purposes. So it's definitely been super interesting to see like these people we get to, we get to work with and all that. And it's definitely a huge it's one of the things that's super interesting about what we do and takes what's like, a normally boring subject and bookkeeping, and makes it like so intriguing and engaging, because we're really just looking at like, the core aspects of all these people's businesses and making sure they're running properly. So it's, I'm glad you appreciate it, because I think in some ways we get used to it. I think it's definitely not the way I thought I'd be making an impact on, you know, people's lives and people's businesses, let alone these really amazing entrepreneurs that, you know, in their own rights have amazing stories, amazing experiences, like I love talking with their clients, because they're truly fascinating and accomplished people Unknown Speaker 23:30 now, I love that man. Dean Soto 23:32 It's that is Yeah, it's it just cool. It's, it's just neat how, how, because of solving that that one problem ever. Anyone who is going to be the go from from, you know, being a celebrity or, or from anywhere. Soon as they get into the online space, where they're having these, you know, they're taking things from PayPal, they're doing these very specific things. Boom, now night, you solve that problem. And now you're literally being able to talk to people that are in it and and help them to grow new new things. These and these are people who are almost unreachable in other ways. And it just cool how, through having that very specific niche, you've been able to do that. Yeah, really amazing. The so I always ask this five minute mindset shifts question this five minute strategy, that if someone were to take it and use it, it would change the game for them, because it's changed the game for you. So what's you mentioned? That, that you like to have, like a feedback, like a feedback dashboard type thing? Can you explain that, in regards to how it's helped you to massively change the way your business and other people's businesses? Parker Stevenson 24:59 Yeah, so that's, like, the reality of everyone's business here. Like if you're listening, and you have an online business or small business, the reality is, like, even if you have the most heart centered business, and you're naive, it's not about the money, it's about helping people or whatever your mindset around your businesses, you your business is still a cash machine is this this machine that sucking money in and spitting money out, hopefully keeping some for you, that's the reality of your business. Like that's what truly is going to make it successful or not successful. No matter how happy your clients are, no matter how good you are at whatever it is you do, how many how much volume you sell of your products, if the money side of things doesn't work, then you're not playing the game, right, you don't have your business model setup, and you're not properly you're not focusing on the right things. So the example I use a lot is that everyone needs to know, they need to get feedback on the decisions they're making in their business. And that feedback comes in the form of your financial data. And unfortunately, unless you have someone organizing that financial data for you, a lot of people just ignore it, they don't look at their financial data. And especially even if they're a newer, younger business, and they could be doing it in a spreadsheet themselves. They just I don't think people see enough value in that. And so what I like to kind of use as an analogy is, you know, if you were driving a car without a dashboard, like you just had no idea about the speedometer, you have check engine light, your oil gauge, all of that stuff is just not there, you can't see it, you can still drive the car without it. But you're guessing when you need to fill up on gas, you're guessing when you need to kind of you know, do your oil, change your guessing if like, there's an entity, you have to, you no longer have this direct input to see if your car's running properly. You know, and you know, the check engine light could be on and blinking. Yeah, and it's just you have it covered up and you can't see you have no idea there's this catastrophic problem that could be coming your way. And until your car just breaks down. And that car is symbolic of a lot of our clients, businesses in our own business. If you don't have this financial tracking, and some sort of feedback happening every month to see, hey, am I spending my money on the right things? Am I doing enough to drive revenue to cover the expenses? I have? Is my business profitable enough? Am I saving enough for taxes, there's all these aspects of running a business that I think you a lot of entrepreneurs don't realize they need to pay more attention to until the pain becomes so bad that they have no choice but to figure it out. Which is a lot of times we when we find them, or they just ignore it until they get a huge tax bill, or literally their business breaks down and then it's no longer profitable. And they can't and they have to shut the business down. Yeah. And so that's the power we've seen with our clients with what we do is that as soon as they start getting these hard numbers in front of them, and they're like, oh, like, I didn't realize I could understand this, I didn't realize how important this was, I didn't realize how important feedback was for me to get, they instantly changed the way they think about their business. Because in some ways it does become a game. How do I make sure these numbers stay healthy, and I make these numbers the way I want through the daily activity of myself and my team in the business. And that's something Corey and I have seen tremendously in our own business, we have our own, you know, financial tracking we do for ourselves, that allows us to plan for the future that allows us to make sure that what we're doing on a monthly basis is supporting our team supporting our clients, we're hitting our financial goals. And all of that is just getting comfortable with your financial data, getting that feedback on a monthly basis. So you can just actually know, is this business running well, or is it not? And you can't, you can only go off of a gut feeling for so long. So that's what I would challenge everyone here to do, whether it's going out and hiring a bookkeeper, or just taking managing your finances yourself, like in your spreadsheet, or wherever it is, yourself taking that really seriously and using that financial data to start shaping the future of your business. Unknown Speaker 29:01 That's cool. And I, I Dean Soto 29:05 I can totally so I, I've had situations where, where if I didn't know the numbers, I would have been in a world of hurt. Parker Stevenson 29:13 Yeah, for sure. And Dean Soto 29:15 in any way even like little things too, because if they, you know, I can imagine since I mean, depending on depending on the the tears and stuff that you guys offer. I know some of them, you actually talk with your clients on a regular basis. Once you get the report, sometimes it could be something like, you know, just me seeing Why am I spending so much on this type of software this or are in software in general? And do I have like things that are just that I'm not even using? Or why Why? You know, I don't have anything, like you said for taxes for payroll taxes for estimated taxes, things like that, if I don't have it, if I don't have awareness of how much am I going to actually have to pay? You know, there's a there's a lot of things that that have happened just from seeing the numbers. I mean, just recently I cut, cut a lot of software that I was like, for whatever reason, I was like, I'm going to use that someday we're going to use it someday. And it was like $400 or $500, or the software just sitting there doing it not doing anything for my business at all. And so I'm like, oh, cancel, cancel, cancel, cancel, cancel. Parker Stevenson 30:33 But, but those audits are important that's important to keeping the business is profitable as possible, right? Dean Soto 30:38 Yeah. And I would imagine to it has there ever been any situation where where a client was, say even giving too much like affiliate income or something like that, to where it was actually hurting their business or something like where it was actually hurting their business because they didn't realize too much is going out. And you're not even keeping any for your Have you ever had any. Parker Stevenson 31:01 I mean, we've seen it all man, it's crazy Dean, we're just recently this year, we have this client, a newer client, who I just absolutely adore. He's such an amazing, amazing person, but he had a whole revenue stream that we were looking at going, you need to cut this revenue stream out, it's taking up all of your time. It's called stress and making your business less profitable. And we're not really making any money off of it. So why why do we have this, these two other offers you have are the ones that are easier to manage, provide more value, and we can grow, they still have tremendous potential for growth. So we get in a situation like that, especially on the revenue side, or sometimes clients are trying to sell too many offers, they have too many offers. And a small business just can't afford they know there's not enough time or enough marketing dollars to try to talk about and promote a ton of different things on a regular basis, we've seen quite realize oh, like because there's, there's all these balances, right? Like you're trying to find the balance of keeping the business healthy, while also making sure you're getting paid as an owner and making the money you need to make to support your family and your lifestyle. And then also, and and there's a lot of intricacies between the balance of those two things like building up savings within your business so that if you have a down month, we have cash to get us through that. And it's not a stressful situation. Or sometimes where someone is taking out too much money from the business, they don't realize how much they're taking out. Because they're looking at their business as still their own personal bank account. And then realize that even though the business is would be successful in the eyes of almost anyone probably listening right now, you'd be like, Oh, I'd love to have a business like this. But they're still in financial turmoil, because they're just not aware of how much they're paying themselves how much they're spending on different things. So the bottom line might look good on the p&l, but the reality is, they're still kind of cash poor, there's just not enough cash in the business that if they wanted to hire another person, if you wanted to start running Facebook ads, they have no flexibility to adapt or jump on opportunities in the future. So there's just it's such a delicate balance between being able to invest in the businesses future be able to protect the business in the long run, while also keeping the business super profitable. So you as a business owner can build your own wealth. And the only way you can figure out what that balance feels how that balance works best for you and for your situation is to have that monthly scorecard to have that monthly feedback. So you can make those decisions to give your business the best chance of sticking around for a really long time. And to give you the best chance as a business owner to have a business that will actually create personal wealth for you as well. Dean Soto 33:44 Yeah, dude, I've never been so excited about bookkeeping. It's crazy, man. It's It's awesome. Like it's it's, it's, it's cool. They get you know, my wife is really good with numbers. And she that's all like, for me, I'm like I do it for me to be like, idealist. I can I can just go do my thing. Come back, see what the numbers are. Okay, things are good. Okay, go go do go do my thing. Come back, oh, things are not so good. Let me fix this. And to just like you said, be fully out there. And doing what I do best, rather than, you know, crap. Now I have to spend six hours at the end of this month doing my bookkeeping, and I don't even know if I'm doing it right. And I don't even you know, like it. It's a it's a very painful process in a one that I avoid if I have to do it myself, you know. And which then gives me no feedback, Parker Stevenson 34:42 you know, it. And we don't expect any of our clients to be financial pros. We're not asking them to be a CFO. All we're asking them to do is to, like you just said, take a look at the numbers. See where you're at, realize where you need to make some adjustments, realize where you see your opportunities, or even just pat yourself on the back things are going well. Everything's going as planned. Great. And then you go back into business, we're talking about 30 minutes to an hour and a half a month. Yep, of looking at your numbers and taking that part of your business seriously. We're not running multinational corporations here. No one needs CFO, we don't need controllers or like full time financial reporting, we just need this part of our businesses organized cleanly like Marie Kondo. This stuff right here, you know, Marie Kondo your business and get the financial stuff organized. And so that way, you have a clean, well organized machine, that is giving you the feedback, you need to see, am I doing a good job as a business owner or not. And again, just those reports on their own, most people want to be able to just read a report and know and that's where the second part of our service comes in, which is the education part around understanding what those numbers are. And again, it's not rocket science here. But at the end of the day, if you've never worked in the financial situation, you know, so many of our clients never even worked in a big company before, right? Like they've only been entrepreneurs, or they were more creatives or doing something else that wasn't really business oriented. And now all of a sudden, they're in these businesses. And they're like, what, like, they don't know what they don't know, totally, totally. But they're still fully capable of learning this stuff. Because if you can add and subtract man, defined as a business owner, we just need to step up and get the right information in front of you. I love it. I love it. Dean Soto 36:30 So how can people reach you? How can people if they if they want to schedule a time with you, or just be to work with you? How can people actually get in contact with you and Corey? Parker Stevenson 36:42 Yeah, so the best way is just go to our website of all finance calm, there's scheduled call buttons all over the website to have you set up a time. But I recommend taking a look at the website, because we definitely make it very clear what type of businesses we work with, and sort of where you need to be at to be a good fit for us. But I think I'd spend you a link for really great download as well. So we have a sales forecasting tool that I think is a much longer link than probably makes sense to say over. So look in the podcast details I imagine are on the on the blog page for this podcast upload. But it's the free Sales Forecast Tool that if you're like, new to the numbers side of things, and you want to see the power of taking some time to think about the financial side of your business and the power of using your numbers to shape what the future of your business can look like. And make sure that you're building a business that's going to be profitable, and healthy. Then the sales forecasting tools, just a spreadsheet that we've done all the work for you just plug some numbers in. And it also comes with a free to tour, a tutorial video tutorial that'll walk you through exactly how to use it. I honestly think it's like one of the best free things any business educator gives away, because I just, I would never start a business or get involved in a business. If I didn't have a budget and a forecast in place to see what's the the potential of this business and this tool will get you get you on your way to feeling like your numbers aren't so scary. Awesome. Dean Soto 38:07 Yeah, I love that. I love that. So yeah, we'll put those in that will put that in the show notes. But definitely go head over to evolved finance.com evolved finance, calm, ev OLVD finance.com just in case, just in case you didn't know how to spell that. Or if I'm slurring or whatever. But go check it out. I mean, they're, they're really awesome. If you're, if you're doing anything online, and you're you have affiliates or PayPal or anything like that, you know, do you have to definitely check them out because it is painful, especially as you start being getting bigger and bigger and bigger, and you're getting a lot more things that you're managing and a lot more different revenue streams, it becomes harder and harder and harder. So so all that being said, thanks so much for being on man. I appreciate you, Parker Stevenson 39:02 Dean. I appreciate you having me. It was really fun talking with you. Dean Soto 39:06 Yeah, it's is is awesome. Like I said, this is didn't expect to be so excited about bookkeeping man. So thanks, Parker. Yeah, thank you. So Alright, cool. So that is the end of this podcast episode. But of course, it's not the end of the podcast. If you want to get a virtual systems architect, go head over to freedom in five minutes calm. What they can do for you is you show them a video, five minutes a day, they're documented. They'll do it for you and you never have to do that thing ever again. So go check out freedom in five minutes calm, go check out evolved finance.com as well. And until next time, I will see you on the next freedom in five minutes podcast episode.

If you're a fan of good bourbon, then you're likely a fan of good food too. Today's guest is the intersection of those two, combining a culinary background with his love for the south and, of course, bourbon. You may know Chef Newman Miller from his appearance on Top Chef season 16. He's also the Executive Chef and Owner of Star Hill Provisions at Maker's Mark and the Harrison Smith House in Bardstown. We talk about his culinary background, where he played a part in the creation of the McDonald's McGriddle and behind the scenes at Top Chef. His deep dive into bourbon was influenced by Drew Kulsveen of Willett. So if you're a wannabe chef or if you're an occasional TV dinner kind of person, this episode is going to have something for you. Show Partners: Barrell Craft Spirits blends and bottles at cask strength, just as nature intended. Find out more at BarrellBourbon.com. Check out Bourbon on the Banks in Frankfort, KY on August 24th. Visit BourbonontheBanks.org. Aged & Ore is running a special promotion on their new Travel Decanter. Get yours today at PursuitTravelDecanter.com. Receive $25 off your first order at Rackhouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Show Notes: This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about 4th of July. What was Padma from Top Chef like in real life? What was it like when you heard about being on Top Chef? Why do you think they chose Kentucky for Top Chef? What did the chefs think of being in smaller towns? Was it challenging to cook for everyone? What's a banana croquet? How cool was it to have the chefs create versions of your dishes? How hard is it to judge fellow chefs?  Tell us about your relationship with Rob Samuels. Was there a pep talk before the show? Were you relieved once it was over? How did you get into food? Did you approach Maker's about making food there? Will some of the main food distributors come down to Maker's? What are your biggest challenges? How hard was it to convince the locals to try higher end food? Talk about meeting Drew Kulsveen and how you got into the bourbon community. Where did your passion for bourbon come from? Besides Maker's, do you have a special bourbon that you love? Tell us about your connection to the McGriddle. Where does bourbon and food intersect for you? Talk about Star Hill Provisions. How do you see the future unfolding for the bourbon/tourism industry in Bardstown/Kentucky? Why did you name the restaurant Harrison/Smith House? 0:00 But we could also say that we're recording because you can talk about a chef schedule like it's never going to happen like this just 0:06 yeah, stars align, you know? Yes. Say it like we gave him days and he's like tomorrow? 0:27 Hey, everyone, this is Episode 208 of bourbon pursuit. And we've got a lot of news to go through in the first one is that there is a huge news break. The US Supreme Court in a 72 decision has struck down a two year residency requirement for anyone seeking an initial license to operate a liquor store in Tennessee. Now, why is that important? Well, because you might have remembered back on bourbon Community Roundtable number 29. We discussed this very topic, its total wine versus the state of Tennessee. And it has a lot of implications that really wrapped up inside here because the Commerce Clause which is a part of the United States Constitution, is wrapped up in here. This means it could potentially open up interstate commerce and shipping across all state lines for bourbon. are we paying really close attention to this one because it's a huge win for consumers. And we'll see really what effects are going to happen in the months to come. The Kentucky bourbon trail craft tour is now expanding. With more distilleries, a new look and an upgraded finishing prize. The expanded craft tour will break down into four different regions northern Central, Western, and the Bluegrass. This will help guests map out their distiller excursions to all corners of the Commonwealth. Adam Johnson, Senior Director of the Kentucky bourbon trail experiences, who was on the podcast way back on episode eight talked about the bourbon trail then. And he's saying that each region will have streamlined itineraries and suggestion stops, with visitors earning a collectible challenge coin. After completing each territory. Fans who tour all 22 stops will earn a free customized barrel stage to display their coins. This showpiece also comes with an official Kentucky bourbon trail tasting glass and you can get the craft tour passport. It has been redesigned as a new souvenir guidebook with nearly 70 pages of distillery information cocktail recipes suggested travel routes, maps, events, and more. Those can be purchased at participating distilleries for $3. With the proceeds going to further the Katie as efforts to craft a better drinking culture. With select social responsibility and environmental sustainable partners. You can read all about the trail in which the slaves are a part of it. At ky bourbon trail.com. We're starting to roll out more barrels into our private bail program from major distilleries. We recently sold out of our larger Craig, Buffalo Trace and to four roses barrels in a matter of just a few hours. And we currently have our knob Creek rye in Maker's Mark 46 private selections up for sale in our Patreon community with not one not two but three Russell's reserve barrels to shortly follow here in the next two months. But the big news is to announce that we are headed back to heaven Hill. And we're going there in August to select not one but two, Elijah Craig barrels, we're going to have eight barrels rolled out for us to select from. And well, I kind of liked that really wasn't the big news. The big news is that we've also been allocated one bourbon and one ride barrel from that small little distillery. That's next door to heaven Hill. Yeah, you might have guessed it, it's will it this will be happening in August as well. We're excited, super excited to be able to bring not only the just these barrels to these private barrel programs, where we get to taste and try these unique expressions. But it's more about bringing these experiences to our Patreon community. So if you're a supporter of us, make sure that you can go and you get yourself signed up. And if you want to know more about it, you can go to patreon.com slash bourbon pursuit. And if you support the podcast at over $10 more per month, you can get yourself entered to be a part of this distillery excursion as well. Just look for the post and get yourself entered. And thanks again to our podcast partner, Kagan bottle out of the Southern California area for making all of this possible. You can get all kinds of bourbon shipped to your door at keg the letter in bottle.com. Now for today's show, if you're a fan of good bourbon, then you're likely a fan of good food too. Today's guest is an intersection of those two, combining a culinary background with his love for the south and of course, bourbon. You may know chef Newman Miller from his appearance on Top Chef season 16. He's also the executive chef and owner of star Hill provisions at Maker's Mark in the Harrison Smith house in Bardstown. We talked about his culinary background, where he was a part of the team who created the McDonalds MIT griddle. And these walls talks about being behind the scenes at top shelf than some of this stuff he got to know through the process. We then start talking about his introduction to bourbon and how he befriended drew Cole's Nina Willett to start really trying some amazing whiskey. And how at the end of the day that really led him to running his own restaurant with inside of the Maker's Mark distillery. So if you're a wannabe chef or if you're an occasional TV dinner kind of person, this episode is going to have something for you. Oddly enough, many people still don't know what a podcast is. So if you've got a friend or a relative that's just now getting into bourbon, show them how to subscribe to a podcast and they will know every time a new episode is dropped. Thanks for being our boots on the ground and spreading the good word of bourbon. Up next, we've got Joe Beatrice from barrell bourbon. And then we've got Fred Minnick with above the char. 5:48 Hi, this is Joe Beatrice from barrell bourbon, we blend and bottle a cast drink, just as nature intended. lift your spirits with barrell bourbon. 5:57 I'm Fred Minnick. And this is above the char. Happy Birthday American. Its Independence Day. And this week we celebrate our country's rich heritage in great history. bourbon is at the forefront of this country's history. From the moment that we are a new country, George Washington and Alexander Hamilton decide to tax whiskey distillers and whiskey distillers and appreciate that very much so they tarred and feathered the whiskey tax man, this time would be known as the Whiskey Rebellion. And it was the first time that the federal government had actually deployed federal troops against its own people. Whiskey would find itself in the political circles for years to come from the bottle and Bond Act of 1897 to the Pure Food and Drug Act of 1906 and from President Taff giving bourbon its first definition and definitions for whiskies to the congressional declaration of 1964. The made bourbon a unique product the United States to President Obama and McConnell, having discussions that would bring bourbon into the fold to President Trump giving all kinds of tariffs all over the world that would lead to retaliatory tariffs from other countries such as Canada, Europe, China, etc, etc. So this holiday, don't drink a beer. For God's sakes. Don't let anyone drink vodka. really celebrate America, go to your store, buy a nice bottle of bourbon, pour yourself a couple fingers, and sip. After all, it's the American way. And that's this week's above the char. Hey, if you have an idea for about the char hit me up on Twitter or Instagram at Fred manic that's at Fred Minnick. Until next week. Cheers. 7:51 Welcome back to another episode of bourbon pursuit the official podcast of bourbon, Kenny and Ryan the original duo here doing a kind of another spin on bourbon. You know, we, you know, we talked about this before, and we were actually talking to the chef earlier before we actually started recording. And there is a good heavy instance of if you're drinking good, you're also eating good. And we looked at this and said, You know, there's an idea we can start bringing some culinary aspects into it. And our guest today is not only this very well versed in the culinary side, but also he's got a rich history with bourbon being even from you know, the Bardstown area and even in Louisville. So it's gonna be fun. Interesting, just to be able to talk about that, too. 8:34 Yeah, for sure. You food. Um, that's one thing I'm passionate and loved, as Kenny may know, in my gut, sometimes shows he's like, 8:43 he's a walking yelled, yeah. 8:44 But our guest today, so as everyone knows, I'm from bars, town, blah, blah. But one thing missing from the bourbon scene, the bourbon trail was like hospitality, good food, good experiences down in Bardstown and kind of go along with and our guest today kind of saw that and filled that need. So I'm really excited to see like, how he got involved in that area, because it's something that was needed. And he's done a great job at it. So let's dive into it. Yeah, they didn't know it's also good, because we've had a chance to actually talked to our guests today, multiple occasions throughout the past few years. And it just you whiskey 9:23 pigs, yeah, 9:24 a few different events like that. A few different dinners at at his places as well. And, you know, now the stars just aligned and we were able to sort of make this happen. And we'll get into why we actually would record because apparently, the schedule of a chef is pretty hectic, so we'll get into that too. So to date on the show, we actually had his haircut today. 9:47 We can squeeze and his haircut having to be right by it all worked out. 9:52 Yeah. So today on the show, we have chef Newman Miller he was featured on episode two of the most recent season of Top Chef, he is the chef owner and Star Hill provisions that she can be found at Maker's Mark. He is also the executive chef and owner at the Harrison Smith house in Bardstown. He's been recognized by the James Beard Foundation, and now he's a celebrity podcaster making his way up. 10:14 who cares about Padma? Yeah, 10:16 well, you know what the show is one thing, but that was another. 10:20 That was so I want you to be honest. I had this towards the end, but might as well bring it out since we're talking about it. How's Padma in life? real life? I gotta be honest. 10:29 I think that the way she acted towards everybody that I saw the way she was towards me, it raised my level of opinion of her tremendously. Obviously, she's beautiful, I think in person, maybe more. So. You know, my wife would agree. I made sure you know, Rachel was on site too. But she was just so kind. Yeah, everybody that was on the show was really kind. I mean, Tom Colicchio. They tell him he had another hour to wait. He get mad I'd put them in the boat and we ride up to the lake, you know, and sort of talk about the future of makers and what we had going on there. He told me some crazy stories about grammar, she Tavern and it was like, we'd known each other and we have met a day ago. So Padma was great with the whole group, they they found a way to sort of surprised I think you watch TV that much. I mean, you just don't think he might have seen time of day, but it was great. 11:24 Oh, yeah. Very cool. Not probably jumped your schedule. No, 11:26 I honestly 11:28 have questions. No. I mean, that's top of mind. Right. I 11:31 was gonna wonder it as a common question you get from the top chef is so let's 11:35 talk about when you're got the news, hey, top chefs come into makers and they're like, hey, you're going to be involved? How what what was going through your head, 11:44 you know, it was amazing. The way it actually happened was way back when they were doing the the scouting trip, for Top Chef, they were trying to pitch Kentucky as the state to come to and it was down to awesome. One other state I started know who it was. And I was going on vacation. And Seth Thompson reached out to me and I didn't respond. And no offense. It was just I was going on vacation. The next day was the first one in four years with my family. We had to go. And then Rob Samuels called me and I and I answered and he mentioned something about a group coming to Kentucky and then I think it was Christian brands can we ended up talking to the director of tourism, and they you know, they just let me know they're coming to town and could I do it. So I drove my family to Florida. I flew back, I cook for 12 people, I went to bed I flew back, I was on the beach the next morning 11am wide. So that was that was the start of it. And then it took about eight months before we found out whether that paid off or not. And so yeah, we we had a little bit of an investment in it and at that, but I mean, I can't think of anything that we'd rather invest in. You know, this is why we came back to country lucky was to try to show off where I'm from my wife's from Southern Indiana. So close enough. But you know, I wanted to show off where I'm from and that there is hospitality that there is culture I mean, I think you know, food and drink don't always get talked about in the culture section of things but it is and Top Chef just Yeah, it's a big spotlight. 13:22 Yeah, so what were some of the reason that I guess they chose Kentucky as to be featured on this season as opposed to other places 13:28 I think up and coming has to be part of it. I think that they really they're just you know there's more people that have got the bug they go you know sometimes they go away they see what's in other places they realize what they kind of are missing from back home. I think Kentucky's, you know, producing a lot of good artists and I think that our farms they had to look at our farmers and our agriculture and just say wow, this is a this is a really dynamic state when it comes to what grows here what you know there's a lot I mean, cities are what you know, everybody thinks about Lexington the mobile but I think this season is really getting outside of the cities a lot and that's the best part because just showing like from end to end of the state there's a lot of different regions and a lot of little niche products that even Kentucky's don't know about but like I think are generally proud of so what I want to know like 14:24 because you drive the law right Oh, you know what, I wonder what these chefs you know had been to two small towns or anywhere in Kentucky what were they saying? Like? Like Where the hell are we? I mean like 14:34 what is it going on here? What will 14:36 kind of the feedback because if you watch this show, you know that they actually had to go to Colorado and then drive all the way back to Whole Foods and Louisville 14:44 didn't drive know Whole Foods and Loreto working on it. Yeah, we we do have the IGA though. That's right little shop and you know what, it's a pre the responses the same from almost everybody that comes down there the show the tourists, the sort of, it's this white knuckle look. And they're sure that they just came down the loudest, you know, little back road they've ever been to. We asked them how they get here and they actually came down the proper way. The chef's I think were brought in the back way. So you all know there's more than one way to get into Maker's Mark. And they were they were a little rattled and 15:22 a little shady one line bridges. 15:25 It's one is lame. Yeah. There's slop trucks coming the other way. Yeah, I mean, that's what the tourist I think that's really what gets you is if you get a slop truck coming out here not like that's when I believe that you had a hard time getting. Otherwise it's just another road. You know, I grew up in Washington County. So sure, I was just that was how we used to drive. But now the chefs were, they were very generous. I think with it. I think that they're just excited. It's It's such a mental task to be on that show, because so little of it is really about who's the best cook. Right. It's who's the best cook in today's situation. And it's hard. I mean, it's it's a it's a mind bender to think about the way they sort of put these things together. They're not tricking anybody. But it's not just purely 16:16 based on how you can handle the situation. Yeah, 16:18 exactly. So you know, the ride down as part of that, you know, you get carsick? You're gonna have a hard time. 16:24 Yeah. And you had a challenge to because you had to cook for all of them before. So talk about that, and how challenging that's what I was really. 16:32 Like, because you've got a lot of people there. You've got national spotlight, if you're nervous during this whole time to like God, like this is a lot of pressure. 16:40 Yeah, it's not the bourbon pursuit podcast. 16:44 From You know what, though, I'll be perfectly honest, I think about in the exact same way, every everything I do. And it sounds kind of cheesy, but it's a hard way to go about it. It all means the same. And so Coco, for those chefs meant a lot. But those dinners we do on Saturday nights, it means that much. And so to me, that part was okay. That volume was unreal, because we also did the catering for the team that was filming the show. So our team is about for the kitchen. makers at the time was four. And we were catering for the hundred and 50 people that they brought on site. The restaurant was actually open for normal service. And then we did that dinner that you saw, and it was 14 dishes for 14 people. And I think that just from volume, it was the most taxing one of the most taxing things we've ever done. But again, it was the coolest to I mean, it was just so great that people really wanted to know more about things like frog legs. Yeah, you know, why are there frog legs and then you go, Well, there might be a lot of frog legs here because we have more cattle than anybody east of the Mississippi State of Kentucky does not have cattle. Yeah, yeah, with the Laurino producing state. And so to have cattle eating those little ponds so they can drink and stay cool. And frogs do really well around lots of little ponds. So you end up growing up going frog. And and so it's just these sort of cultural things that may or may not make sense to people that aren't from here, but I love you know, banana croquette. I gotta show them Danna croquette off 18:27 as long as it's all good. I was like, oh my man. That's all I have. Thanks. Get my grandma still makes you know, they're all sorry. 18:34 So so you gotta school people that aren't like native from Bardstown and back was that kind of grew up as a city folk so on and talk about what is banana coconut? I've never even had frog legs in my life. See? 18:47 My pond? Yeah, so you're down there. We'll get you 18:51 a gig. That's all 18:52 you need a gig in the flashlight but banana croquette. The way I grew up eating it was not the made for the TV show. I had to I had to class. 19:02 But you didn't do just banana mayo and crush. 19:06 That's it is it's a banana of very rightness depends on your family, or whether somebody forgot to buy the bananas, you can always tell. And usually it's either a Dukes or a Hellman's. I've known people to do miracle whip. Yeah, it's a big 19:21 mistake. It's a big mistake. I do Helmand 19:23 you've got to go elements it Dukes with the sugar can work a little bit, but then crushed peanuts. And my grandma had a hand crank peanut Crusher and she would use skin on Spanish peanuts. No idea why 19:39 I don't like this. I think we just use whatever planners we 19:42 do. Yeah. Not too fancy. 19:44 Well, the way we're doing it now we actually have a farmer and Loretta and they have heirloom peanuts. They they're five generations deep growing these peanuts in Loretta. And they have five little nuts in the shell there nothing like I know. So I use those just like a shalom to the people and stuff. The way we made it for the show. You're basically making almost like a Hollandaise sauce, eggs and vinegar and sugar. And you whisk it over a double boiler, it doubles in volume, you add a little bit of vinegar, apple cider vinegar to it, you keep whisking it, you take it off the heat, you add a little bit of peanut butter, and you add a little bit of mayonnaise to that and it makes almost like a fudge sauce. Then you pour it all over the banana. And then you put crushed nuts. So I had to chef it up. And that's actually a recipe I found from the late 1800s. I collect cookbooks. And so I had some old Kentucky cookbook and they had this recipe in it. So it makes it so much better when you don't hear stories about it, but you can actually find it. So then when somebody questions, yeah, you can, you know, take it back and say look, this isn't just Manet's and the way we grew up with the shirt, you know what I mean? Like there's a it's rooted in the quick version. 20:52 Yeah, you know, the way well, and that's the only way I've ever eaten it. Yeah, honestly, until we got the call about the show. And then I just went deep. And that most proud thing is getting the banana croquette somehow a little bit of attention because it's got to be the weirdest thing that uh, that I made for him for sure. That's awesome. Yeah, you know, Newman, the reason I respect you is because you do do banana croquettes and you do embrace like, two of my favorite things ever are Jake's 150 quick stop sausage, hot sausage, and you gotta you gotta get you gotta give some some background here. There's this. He's groups in Springfield. So Springfield and Bardstown. There's road 150 that connects on the this quick stops What? Maybe halfway? 21:37 It's all right. Yeah, right, right in the middle. I mean, batlin 21:41 white tail, but they make this sausage and the spice blend that goes in it and it's incredible. They put on you can buy it here and what Paul's and stuff for like 10 times the price that you would pay for their but it's incredible in any dish. 21:54 Why don't know if you knew this, but my first job when I turned 16 was a butcher. And I was a butcher's assistant and butcher shop called the meat house in Springfield. My boss ran numbers. And the legend that I've been told and I believe is that Jake's won't fit the recipe was lost in a card game between my boss and think I've heard that story. And that's and that's how the rest of you got over there. So when I was 16, I was making not Jake's 150 I was making the meat house version, okay, of that sausage. And that's why I still don't have any hair anymore. It was thousands of pounds a week every every week. And it was my favorite. So Jake's The reason I still because that we got them in food and wine magazine. There's a little they got a little to page right up or something. And it was because sausage ball recipe we put in there. But there's just something about that sausage and it being iconic. I mean, biscuits and gravy was one of the things that we did for an iconic dish, because it happens in a lot of places. But there's not a sausage culture around breakfast sausage, in a lot of places like in hockey. Right. He could have done it. Couple other southern states could have tried. But Kentucky Really? 23:05 Yeah, it's kind of like Drake and you know, or something you know of the sausages? 23:09 Yeah, yeah, it really is. It's great. I mean, they still make it in the gas station. always joke is the best gas station 23:16 I've ever had. Change Your Life. 23:18 Yeah. And the other thing that you did with that to, you know, to kind of like bring in some of the Northern Kentucky folks, you know, you did you use something with Guetta, as well in the show to 23:27 do you know what one of the other episodes definitely got together? I think I put it up. And but some of the things that I put up, they said they already had other episodes for Yeah, that's why there's no fried chicken, necessarily in my episode, or, in my case, I tried to give them do fried quill. The hot Brown, you know, I worked at the brown hotel was my first job out of culinary school. But there's no hot brown on our episode, because I think that come came on down the line a little bit. So you know, it was hard coming up with the list. And then as soon as done you think of 10 more iconic things that Yeah, 24:03 and you know, 24:04 yeah, I mean, child shower, like all these little things. And I'm only from one of the regions like that's the other thing. I don't think I gave Western Kentucky and Eastern Kentucky 100% of what they could have had because I'm from Central Kentucky sure is a different cuisine. Yeah. 24:22 So How cool was it that? I guess the challenge if you haven't seen that, so the challenge was to create the chefs were to create their own version of what you made from How cool was that? And like, and I want to well talk about that personalized follow up question. 24:38 Honestly, it's kind of surreal. Just Just the fact that the way they framed it was that I was the expert on Kentucky cuisine. And I mean, I'm born and raised. I've eaten since I was born of I do cook professionally. And but for them to sort of believe it and eat it. And you can tell that they believed it. Because you know, when they're eating, they could they could feel how excited we were to share those dishes with them. I think everybody did a great job. I think it's, it's one of the hardest things you can ever do is cook another chef's food when you take it seriously because, you know, is is you can't cook somebody else's food. And so that's why it was so interesting whenever we judge them to sort of go through it and see their influence. And, you know, how much did they take away? Or did they really just cook their meal? Right? In a way that? Yeah, didn't? 25:31 And I'm glad you said you had you different few different spices here and there. Yeah. 25:36 How hard is it to judge fellowships, knowing what they've gone through? And like, are they like, Look, you really need to critique or, like, you know, what's, how did they approach it when you're a judge on the show? 25:47 Or did the producers say like, you gotta be honest there, you gotta, you gotta know, they'll hold back like, yeah, that was a session go, 25:52 no leaving at all. It was it was, it wasn't that hard. I mean, you know, you take into account obvious because you live the life. And you, you know, you saw how hard it was for them to do the elect hot, but it's always hot. Like, you know, like that that part was hilarious, because it's dramatic for TV. But we used to work the monitors in our chef coat. And I mean, it'd be 130 degrees on your station. You know, if you ran a grill station, you literally were cooking, you know, your skin was tight at the end of the night. So, you know, 90 degrees with humidity is just what it is, you know, a part of it. There could be a tobacco farmer episode, and it's much hotter, you know. And so anyway, it was easy from the judges standpoint, just because all I do is eat and taste. You know, I mean, you just taste, taste, taste, taste, taste, taste, taste. And you do it so that instantly when you taste something, you know, it's right or it's wrong. Sure. And then why is it taking a bourbon when you got a barrel papers on? Yeah, exactly. You're being analytical. I mean, it's not, you know, you don't want to sit in front of master distiller and say, This is terrible. This one is flat. This one needs more time, you forgot about this one. And the tannins are outrageous, right. But that's what you have to do when you're spending the money on it. And so that's the same, the same idea, you know, we were the customer. You know, nobody did a bad job. And that made it a lot easier. You know, if somebody had really bombed, none of us wanted to sit there and you know, rail on them, but I guess we could have 27:32 funny Fred on there. I think he got like one line in he was like, I was like, that's typical Fred, like, critical, like, you know, like, get get my piece in? 27:41 Yeah, I mean, you had a lot of face time in it. And it was, it was really cool to see a lot of the ways that you were directing people and talking to people about this, but I kind of want to shift a little bit and talk about your, your relationship to rob Samuels with this as well, you know, was there? Was there a pep talk beforehand, because I know there's probably like a lot of the line for Maker's Mark here to get this right. And he was like, I trust you. 28:01 But I trust you. But be on your A game today. 28:03 You know what, Rob, I gotta give it to rob. He's pretty hands off. Manager when it's big picture. I think, you know, like any good person when it comes to the details, you got to be involved. But, you know, he really honestly trusted that we were going to do our absolute best. I think that we've we've done, you know, that the only thing I can promise that I'll be on time, and I'll try my best. And like, those are two things that I always, you know, sort of do. And Rob knows that. And, you know, I don't he didn't say anything, it was wonderful. He just he said, this is your day thing. I mean, you know, it was like this, this is your day. And that's about as inspirational of a thing. As somebody can tell you, I think they really believe in you, whenever they say something like that. So yeah, Rob was, Rob was fantastic about it. The team, you know, the brand, I think the brand might have been more nervous than Rob was, right. There's a brand involved 29:00 in that would have been as a designer center, like 29:04 agencies, and there's budgets and all these and I don't blame my Beaver, I'd be worried if I just sent a chef out to go and represent. But I think everybody ended up happy with it. I think that the you know, the show itself showed off the campus, unbelievably, I mean, there's nothing I could have done about that. That is no relation to me or my food or anything. But it's a beautiful place to be able to serve food. And I mean, that's really why we're together is they want hospitality. And they want the highest level. That That makes sense as we grow of service and the food. And that's been a sandwich shop and we reopen and you know, a little while, it'll be a different level of that. And we'll just keep on sort of evolving. They trust us to do it. And we're really just trying to match up against, you know, do growing up in Washington County, there were two types of weddings. Either a beer truck would show up with taps on the side with Bud Light, or when you cut your truck and bourbon and coke, and it was always makers and coke and a red cup. And like that was its iconic. I mean, everybody, am I you know, the guys whose dads worked in distilleries worked at Maker's Mark, I could drive there in seven minutes from my parents house. And we used to go swimming in the lake. I mean, and so this before they had 24 hour security, I promise you don't want to try to go swimming a moon anymore. No, no, don't do that. But you know, just being around that makes us want to raise our game. And you know, yeah, make them proud. 30:42 So after was over re like, sigh relief. It's done, or were you like, shit, let's do it again tomorrow. Like, what were what 30:50 was the deep breath? Yeah, it was a solid deep breath. I mean, we, we lost a couple key staff members right beforehand, which is always a bummer. But Anna people got to grow and do their thing. And so it was it was a little bit trying, you know, but I do it again, in a heartbeat. I think you know, 10 minutes later, I was probably ready again. But right away, it was definitely a deep breath. And it's kind of surreal. Like I said, I mean, it's a lot going on in the middle of Loretta, Kentucky. 31:24 And it's all about food. You know, I mean, I just 31:27 couldn't want a better Yeah, yeah. So we're at the pinnacle of the, you know, of your trajectory. So let's get back to the beginning. So how does a kid from Springfield, Kentucky, get on top chef talk about how you got into food? Why did you choose food? And why did you think you know, Central Kentucky is where you want to call home and start your own restaurant. Okay, not loaded, loaded in that question. sit back and listen, I think you can handle it. 31:54 When I was seven, I wrote a letter culinary school. Mom, my mom's a school teacher. And she laminated it and copied it and kept a copy forever. And I don't know what I was thinking. I have nobody in my family that cook particularly well. My dad was the big cook. And I mean, he's a very good cook. But there wasn't a culinary sort of influence on either side. But tomatoes 12 was cooking like little three course meals and I don't think I've ever eaten a three course meal. I don't know where I even knew that you were supposed to have three courses. You didn't see it on TV or 32:27 I don't know, magazines or 32:28 we didn't have cable. So I don't know. It's really weird. And then I started culinary school 12 days after I graduate high school. So I was 17. I finished you know, 18 months later, I went to solvent in Louisville. 32:42 But you were doing a year at the butcher shop at 16 is I was 16. 32:45 The other day the day I turned 16. I was at the butcher shop. I stayed at the butcher shop for the first three months culinary school and then had moved to Louisville. I was falling asleep on the drive to school. It was Yeah, it's a little rough. So I moved to Louisville and had a couple of really terrible. They weren't terrible jobs, jobs and terrible places. And it's still some of my biggest learning experiences. Just things I would never do again. But it was really good to sort of do during culinary school and then I worked for Joe Castro at the brown. Whenever I got out chef Joe was still there. He's the master it was wonderful working for him. 33:32 Make a main hub around her if 33:34 we make a very good we do it Lexington style. So we do the exact hot brown of the brown hotel plus country ham. And I was born in Lexington. So from one to five live there. And yeah, so I've got a little soft spot. And if you can add country ham. Yeah. wins. Yeah, it's who doesn't want salty hand? Yeah, exactly. So work to the brown hotel. got a chance to go up to come diesel engine after that. I lived in Columbus, Indiana. So I was the private chef for the owner of the company. And then my boss. He cooked 12 Michelin stars. He was he was just a badass Gotham Thomas. And I was his junior and senior sous chef there in Indiana for a couple of years. Moved to Scotland and did a short little stint in Scotland. It wasn't exactly what I what I thought I signed up for but I had a good time. Too much rain. You know what the weather I loved it. I only need the sun to make vegetables grow. I'm a weirdo in that respect. You know, I really, I dug that. I love the people. 34:39 We spend enough summers here you're like I'll take cloudy and so yeah, cool. 34:45 Yeah, exactly. But uh, Scala was great. But I had broken up with my girlfriend to move to Scotland. And her name is Rachel, who's now my wife. And so I realized I'd probably just made a couple of mistakes. And I moved from Scotland to Chicago. Chicago worked at North pond restaurant. So it's a Michelin one star restaurant when I first moved there. And then I got into research and development. I was a corporate chef for companies. I did that for the next six, seven years. We did eight. We always say eight winners. We did eight winners in Chicago. And that was it. pick winners. Yeah. 35:21 It's it's it's brutal. It's brutal. 35:23 Oh, it was unbelievable. I mean, my first one or two I still didn't have proper clothes. You know, it's like you're wearing your Kentucky winter clothes. And it doesn't 35:32 really like slices right there. Yeah, 35:35 that's what last time I was there. You can't find anybody without those Canadian goose down jackets nowadays. And those things are expensive. But there's a reason why they have them. Yeah. 35:45 Oh, it's unbelievable. I mean, was like, 35:47 like trekking on Everest. And you're there. 35:48 Yeah. That and then between jackets and strollers, you spend all your money, you know, you can't afford two cars. So you get a nice stroller for the second one. Yeah. But we did Chicago. I, you know, really, really enjoyed the product development side and the research and development but a long story short, I broke my broke my foot in my ankle, pretty bad. And I was out of work for six weeks. And I had this sort of job that I could be out of work. And somehow it It worked. And my wife just knew I wasn't particularly happy with you know, the sort of business that I was getting into at the very end and she said we should open a restaurant in Kentucky. And it wasn't the first time we'd ever talked about it. We had obviously baton back and forth what really started happening was barrel pics became big. So if you think 2011 1213 when the barrel pics, I think that's it, you know, oh, seven a week, still old school. But I think of how lots of distilleries started opening up barrel pics, right. And our friends all ran bar programs in Chicago. Since I wasn't in a kitchen all the time. Now. I became really close to bar. You know, bartenders, so Blackbird, the violet, our the scofflaw group, like they were our best friends. And they were all coming down to Kentucky and doing barrel pics. Going to Louisville having a blast at knock bar and, you know, a garage bar couple of you know, places that were around then. They're devils in AD. And, and then but then they're coming back and they were bummed out about the food. Yeah, you know, and they were bummed out a little bit about the cocktails, right. There wasn't you know, in those years, there weren't cocktail bars. Pearl wasn't around, you know, the silver dollar was it? I was actually getting drinks from the beverage director for silver dollar. 37:48 Larry, you 37:50 know, Susie, so his his partner Susie, was the bartender, a big star, which was my local watering hole in Chicago me 37:59 sense because when I went to big star, I was like, this is like an exact replica of silver dollar, like which one came first? 38:07 The chicken was Maria. It was in this case, but I mean, you know, we just saw we just saw an opening. It kind of made me a little bit not upset. I mean, I wasn't mad at Kentucky or something like that, right. I mean, I chose not to live here for a long time. But I just knew that there are really people doing this now and it's on the industry level right now. But it's going to get down to a normal person level. And what's going to be there, you know, and we started investigating, I grew up in a, an old house built in 1800s. To get a liquor license in Kentucky is weird. There's still a lot of esoteric kind of blue laws. And you know, my county is moist. You know, you can have a liquor license in the city but not in the county. And then we found out a restaurant was for selling bars town in a historic gold home. We could live upstairs 39:02 I called circa sir. Yeah, 39:03 yeah, that was the name of it was circa because it was built circa 1780. Okay, so it's the oldest stone home in Nelson County. And we live on the top two floors and then open the restaurant on the bottom. And that was it. I mean, that was five years ago this year. And 39:23 that was the birth of Harrison Smith. That was 39:25 the birth of Harrison Smith house. Yeah. And then, about two years into Harrison Smith house. We started making barbecue sandwiches in the Toll House me at a makers that had 12 seats. And that was the start of Stargell provisions. So what did you approach them about doing that? Or did they kind of ask you like, Hey, we need somebody we got a lot of visitors coming here that are mega destination, but they need something to eat. 39:53 Hey, it's Kenny here. And I want to tell you about an event that's happening on Saturday, August 24. Because I want to see you historic downtown Frankfort, Kentucky, at bourbon on the banks. It's the Commonwealth premier bourbon tasting and awards festival. There's live music and over 100 vendors of food, beer, wine, and of course, bourbon. But guess what even will be there in the bourbon pursuit booth. You can check out all the events including tastings with the master distillers that you've heard on the show before and the People's Choice Award for the Best bourbon out there. You can get your all inclusive ticket for $65 Plus, you can join on the free Friday night event. Go and check it out bourbon on the banks.org 40:38 right here, have you ever been traveling or on a date night or just wanting to pack your favorite booze or wine or cocktail and it just turns out to be a big mess? Well, we have a perfect solution for you. The Asian or travel decanter is made of 500 milliliter hand-blown glass encased in two double wall stainless steel tumblers. So you got glasses already there with you. We're running a special promotion for bourbon pursuit where you can get yours at pursuit travel to canter calm. Go get yours today. 41:06 There are more craft distilleries popping up around the country now more than ever before. 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Use code pursuit for $25 off your first box. 42:06 Did you approach them about doing that? Or did they kind of ask you like, Hey, we need somebody we got a lot of visitors coming here that are making a destination but they need some to eat. 42:15 You know what? I think that I asked if I could sell barbecue sandwiches. Okay, at the Toll House. I think that literally, that was about as basic as it as it started. And I think before that, there wasn't I mean, we still opened as the first. I think the first restaurant in a distillery, I think we we got that one or something like that. And I mean, even then, before that it was all employees that was that was sort of the focus was how do you be a dining room and then also sort of serve guests. And we just sort of turned that a little bit. And we still love, love, love to get the employees in and to feed people that work there. But primarily now Yeah, we're just focused. I mean, that's who's coming in on a Saturday and October we're going to see 550 plus guests from 1130 to 430 on a day. 43:09 So when you which is pretty good for even an average 43:11 restaurant, it's it's, it's it's a crush, man. It's an absolute crush. And then on Saturdays, between May to the end of October, every Saturday night, we do ticket dinners. So you buy your ticket ahead of time you come in, it's a set three course meal, three cocktails, we write the menu that morning. So we swap from being a fast casual lunch place to as comfortable of a fine dining experience because I mean we really don't try to add a lot of the stodgy parts but you know it's its proper food is cold smoked fraud quell you know want to leave on a salad and yeah, just you know country cooking but tuned up a little bit. 43:53 Hop in the makers man, we gotta go to Whole Foods. 43:57 Man, you know, many times I wish there was a whole foods of down there. You just change that to change what you're doing. 44:03 So like some of the main food disturbers? Will they come all the way down there like a like a creation gardens or 44:08 you know what creation actually have to get they delivered to my house and barge town. Okay, I have the walking coolers there. And then I have to take it from walking coolers and bars down down there working on it. And hopefully they'll hear this and work on it even faster. Very excited to to get deliveries in Loretta. 44:27 I know some people there I'll put in actually started the pot for Hey, well we 44:31 like to use. So. Yeah. But it's it's a challenge. I mean, I think staff is probably the biggest challenge. We have great staff. You know, I think everybody who we employ we're really lucky to have, but it's finding people with passion and talent. And, you know, if you're not from there, it can be intimidating. You know, living in the country is just like living in the city. I mean, they're both intimidating if you aren't from one of the other. But such a good place. You know, the the pace is right, we can really focus on what it is if you're into food or drink or beverage. You focus on what matters and you don't have to spend a lot of time Yeah, with the extras, the permitting the you know, sort of the crush that comes around. And so, yeah, staffing is the difficult 45:20 I got a question just being from the region. So like, obviously, tourists coming in, will embrace and kind of take on you know, your the quality of food and don't mind paying higher How hard was it to like, convince the locals because like, I know, you know, Central Kentucky is not a wealthy, it's not poor. It's not wealthy. So people are kind of like putting a put off by like, high end food because it's so expensive. How hard is it? Was it to convince people that like, Come tries, I promise, you know, it's good. I gotta be honest, people do great. 45:55 There's always going to be naysayers, right? There's always going to be, but when people we'll see working your hardest, and doing everything you can and they see the product that your bond and they start to get interested in. You know, the rabbits you get where you get them. And why is this chicken tastes different than chicken that I used to have? Like That was the conversation that really got us through it was we charged what we charged, but it was based in math, right? I mean, it would be terrible. If it wasn't a we wouldn't have been ever to exist. You know, we buy better products. They cost more money. If we do our job, right, they taste that much better. And that's really was the difference maker. You know, there was only two of us that did every bite of food. And every drink basically that ever got served at Harrison Smith house in the last part. We were lucky to have a couple of friends come and help us on Friday and Saturday nights. Paul scurrilous who has Korean restaurant here in town? Yes. came and worked with us for a number of months. We had a good me Anthony who came in and worked with us. He was fantastic. But two of us did. 100% every bite of pastry ever roll every the bone chicken thigh, every cocktail. And you know, I think people Yeah, but people got it, you know, they could. That was what helped us get through it. You know, there were always some pushback. There was always a little naysaying i mean you know, I it's not always easy to get my parents to come in because they didn't want me to come home every time and we didn't eat at restaurants like that whenever I was growing up but you know what made it easier was knowing that we did it in react based in reality, not trying to get rid sure yet. Hell if we if I learned how to start cooking to get rich. 47:48 You're out of reality now. Yeah, but uh, but yeah, I mean, you know, 47:54 I think it's a challenge anywhere I think that chicken is chicken I think that when you put eggs with something, everybody thinks it's worthless. Like these are just common trends that unfortunately follow restaurants around everywhere. And that being said the tourism business is big enough that we didn't have to cater to anybody in particular we were really lucky we got to make our food and sell it and when we needed to we added a three course fried chicken dinner on Wednesday night you know and it was still $25 awesome. But I mean you know for a fried chicken meal and fast foods five bucks is ours already. So we were still you know, five times more than people thought but the number of teachers and like just like you said, real people that came to eat with us it was nothing short of flattering and you know, so a lot of our best customers weren't I don't want to pretend like I know what they're like but you know the super fluent they weren't the who's who of Barcelona started out now the who's who's duty there as well don't get me wrong shirt. Oh 49:04 yeah, for sure. I want to kind of talk about so you've been embraced kind of by the bourbon community like who's involved in I think a lot of that's probably to do it trickles been I know you guys are pretty close talked about how your you all got hooked up I guess and think kind of how you got thrown into the bargain community? 49:20 Yeah, um, you know, when we moved to bars town I knew who drew was will it was really starting to in a national sense. Get more notoriety as to you know what k bf is and or I'm sorry, k Kentucky Kentucky bourbon fest for Kentucky Association. Nice. Name all of them. Good. 49:44 Jackie know, the Kentucky bourbon distillers are 49:48 Yeah, TBD. Yeah. Here we go. their parent company. There we go. 49:51 Yeah, there we go. And people were starting to visit. Yeah, as we can tell, they were starting to figure that out. And so I saw Drew, and I, you know, sort of in the middle. Yeah. And I was like, man, I hope that I can get to know this guy. I hope that this is your peers that sort of becomes and ended up meeting. We're talking about best customers. I mean, nobody's there like every day nobody ate at me when 50:14 you first came out. He was like, thank god this place and they didn't get a decent meal. 50:19 You know, Drew Drew, without a doubt. It was the and still is really one of the biggest supporters we've had for the restaurant. He He really loves cuisine. I mean, he, he embraces it. High and low. It doesn't have to be fancy. If it is he still likes that an awful lot. But now it was just, you know, and then we got to know each other. I remember, he gave us a gift. When we opened and we barely knew each other. We've met a couple of times, and he brought me a new some ham. foot on like one of these. You've got to be in line for three years. The ages in the basement? Yes. Well, we got him on that little while. But this hand was I mean, it was one of the most special things we've ever gotten. He just brought it in, gave it to us. Here you go, guys. Thanks for being in town and sort of went from there. we'd hang out, you know, obviously was such a cult bourbon. You know, it was really interesting to go over to his place. And once you see his his bourbon collection, it makes you want to stop collecting bourbon a little. Boy, you just it's just a realization sort of moment here. Now you go well, I guess I could have a lot of will it are a lot of anything, right? Yeah. But I'm never going to have it all. It's like makers bottles, right? We started collecting those at the restaurant for a little while. But these makers fans, they have a million times more than we'll ever have. Yeah, so now we open the collectible ones. And like we do them all as charity bottle. So people just freak out because they see their collectible bottles open. But we put the whole price of the shot for charity. And then we get to see what whiskey at that time. tasted like. I'll tell you what the 96 championship bottle. Fantastic. Got some gentlemen. 52:05 It's fantastic. 52:09 Exactly, exactly. But you know, so anyway, back to drew we. Yeah, we just hit it off, man. And then he got me into cigars. You know? 52:18 If you think he has a lot of will it's why do you see a car collection? 52:22 Yeah, he's got a he's got a pretty pretty rises selection. And, you know, he's always had something to talk about. I'm interested in the whiskey, he's interested in food. We both sort of have mutual respect, I think for for what the other ones doing and and he was just a massive supporter. I mean, there's nothing like putting your money where your mouth is. And you know, if you want to have nice things, you have to work at it. And he was always down to do his part to make sure that you know, we were doing well. I mean, then our first year when things were really hard. You know, that's when whiskey pig started her. now known as Berea nationally known as but maybe now we can call it whiskey pig again. Okay, and I don't know, but I like whiskey pig better. But you know, him starting that was was a big move between that and there's a guy named Greg Jensen. Do you guys know Greg? I know the name. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, out of California. 53:15 My wife and I were walking. We're pushing a stroller. 53:20 Maybe we've been open for two or three weeks. And it was our first. Like, I think I had four hours off. And we were taking a walk. And we met this gentleman. And he seemed lost. And we gave him directions. And then he asked if we knew about the restaurant on the corner. And we're like, yeah, it's ours. Long story short, he comes in the next night with his wife and his mother in law. And it's the first time anybody's ever asked for a tasting menu. He says, Can you do it? And Josh and I are in the back and we're sweating. And we're like, nervous and, like goosebumps. And we're like, yeah, we can't do that. That's that's what we've trained to do. But we thought we're coming to make fried chicken, you know. And I swear, I think we cooked everything we could, he drank wine, he drink bourbon, they had a blast, and the ticket might have been 300 300. Like, we just went through the wall Adam, and it was experiences when it wasn't bad, because we just weren't set for that yet, you know, but he was deeper in the bourbon world than we would have known. And he started telling people, and then we started doing these dinners for barrel pics, because I think your second part of the question was, how do we get involved in the community? And that was it. That I mean, between drew and the whiskey pig. And then sort of guys starting to do their their pics, you know, and then have a dinner for 20 afterwards. That did it. And, you know, just built and built and built and we still do those dinners all the time at Harrison Smith house. 54:54 I mean, we we've been in one. Yeah, we have. 54:57 Yeah, you know, I kinda want to talk a lot about you know where it is your passion for bourbon come from as well. You know, we really, really talked about because you do you drink bourbon like you have? You have a knack for it. You love it. You know, where did that passion really come from as well. I'm 55:11 swimming in makers like Yeah. 55:15 I mean, just being very honest, the earliest moonshine that we used to be able to get was always an empty makers bottles, which is odd, but it was one of those little connection things. And, you know, for me, I is just a national, you know, it's a pride thing. I like gin. I love drinking a gin and tonic Don't get me wrong, but knowing where it's from what it is what is made out of the people who grew the corn, the people who make it, like, at this point, there's no turning back from it, right. It's like, I love scotch. I love all these things. There's, you know, I'm pretty equal opportunity. But bourbon is the sort of, you know, the sun and other things evolve well rounded in terms of our beverage selection choice. It makes sense because of where we are obviously, but even if it wasn't so many of the classic cocktails, I love even a Bardstown bourbon right now, they do the Tiki drinks with bourbon involved. I love that. I mean, it's just versatile. I don't know my grandma drink. bourbon, my great aunt, who our house cocktail is, you know, we have a house cocktail. We've had it since the day we opened Harrison Smith, and it's still at makers. And it's what she would make for yourself every day at 11am when the price is right was on. And she would make one highball. And watch Bob Barker. And then I guess and yeah, 56:41 yeah. Yeah. And 56:46 that's what she would do. And I can remember as a little kid, helping her get the ice bucket and watching this sort of go down. And, you know, my grandma would drink, heaven Hill, Green Label and coke. And at Christmas time, my dad would borrow Bala makers. And she would always it was just like, it was a script. She say, Pat Newman, I can't, I can't put coke with that, you know, I can't have that. You know, it's just one of these little cultural things that, like I didn't grow up thinking about a prohibition and sort of stance on a lot of things and alcohol. I mean, it just, yeah, so the family was going to drink a little bit of bourbon. And that, yeah, that was it. 57:29 So again, another kind of question for you. Because, you know, you've talked about makers a lot. But, you know, we knew you know, we talked about chefs in bourbon, there's a there's a few that stand out. They had these kind of like magical pairings, right? So, you know, the lady Anthony Bourdain, he had a very tight connection to loving Pappy Van Winkle, Chef Sean Brock, very into like the very, very old Fitzgerald's Well, not anymore. Well, not anymore. But right. Do you have something that you have in a collection that you adorn, that you go back and like, that's your, that's your kind of like, staple thing that you love? 58:00 Be honest, if we're going to talk vintage at all. 58:05 It could be anything I like, I like to I like two things together. I like almost I like the weirdest of the weird. So this could mean that mean, you get to hang out around distillers. So you know, there's things that never get a label put on them. Absolutely. I want that. I want that sea creature that I a dime that weird. Well, maybe it's off way. Like I want way off profile. And I want a chartreuse. Those are my two things. I want a little sip of both of those. I mean, but yeah, because genuinely the best things I've ever had didn't have a label. And yeah, they wouldn't have passed any QC test. They. And there's a couple of distilleries to be perfectly honest. I mean, you know that I've that I've had that from 58:52 go and we're listening. Which ones? 58:56 Well, let me check the label reports here. But you know what I'm saying I mean, I'm not trying to try to dodge it. But I'm not really a brand guy. I don't I don't have one thing that I've always gravitated towards more than the other. It's constant. Just trying to fame few shots of heaven Hill white label and old Bardstown with the in the back. And you know what, even without a doubt, I mean, the highest of the high and the lowest of the low is really where I want to sit. I mean, that that's, you know, the most time where, where I find the most pleasure is those two sort of spectrums of things. I think the middle is where things get cloudy a little bit. You know, that $50 price range nowadays that 6075 is just a different sort of piece than it used to be and give me below or above that. And I'm usually generally pretty happy. Yeah. 59:50 So then another thing I kind of want to talk about, and this kind of goes back to, because I think we do ourselves a disservice if we didn't grab this little nugget of information, because we were upstairs and you were talking about your time I'm in the corporate world that you had a hand and one of the most, I'm glad you brought the biggest breakfast sandwiches that are out there today. So kind of talk about that. 1:00:09 Yeah, hangover cure of choice. 1:00:10 So one of my very first projects that I was involved in, so I, I'm 22 years old, or 20, maybe 23, I don't know, and lived in Chicago, and I get a job at this product development firm. And they work with all kinds of different food service companies coming up with new products. And McDonald's wants to come up with something new, something innovative, and they decided to do a pancake sandwich right? What do they call that to make griddle? Yeah, they'll you'll make griddle. And so our part in it is how do you deliver syrup without getting it on somebody's savings. And that was our piece of the project. And we worked and worked and worked and ended up with these little encapsulate, you know, like Halloween when you go out trick or treating. Have those bats any bite them there's like juice and Saudi? Yeah, well, that food grade wax is what we ended up using. And each one of those materials has tiny little pocket of syrup, wrapped grade logic. It is magic. It truly is. Because the thing is, if I was to give you a handful of them to eat, they would never melt in your mouth. It takes a certain like cooking temperature before they'll fully Melton it's an encapsulation. And so yeah, yeah, that was a fun project. But you know, the one around here gets everybody is campfire chicken, for Cracker Barrel, they'll really do all the billboards of Yeah, that photo got taken in a basement in Chicago seven years ago. Like, how wild is that, you know, this sort of country looking dish of a half a chicken roasted with carrots and stuff was a Kentucky boy in Chicago, selling to a Tennessee company to put on billboards all over little weird little combo circle of life. 1:02:00 So like, kind of one of the last questions that I have is, is kind of, you know, we've talked about bourbon, we've talked about food, but where did the two kind of really intersect for you? Do you look at it as a way of cooking does more pairing like what What's your real take on it? 1:02:15 You know, people ask a lot about what I think pairs best. And I know that's not the question, but part of it is, you know, and I'm just a firm believer that good goes with good. And it's not a scapegoat example to like, get out of pairing things because I could give you exact, but I think that genuinely there's like a couple of levels that you can enjoy food and bourbon and everything else on you know, there's the straight hedonist level, which is great. And it's a little bit too much of, you know, responsibly too much of everything. But you know, lots of food is like the dinner I cooked for Top Chef as too much food too much, but it's just too much, right, you feel good about it, you're going to eat the leftovers, you're not wasting it. But you know, there's sort of that level of pairing. And then when you go to the high end, we just got back from from Spain, my wife and I, and you know, we were doing these sort of Michelin tasting menus. And it was amazing how much the pairings played into the total meal. And it was a reminder to me because with cocktails, we'd be a little bit more careful. We can't go 10 courses. 10 cocktails is never going to work. You know, wine and beer sort of have that play. But I came back with just a stronger desire to think about what exactly does go together instead of always

In this podcast, you'll get to hear from one of the best sales and franchise consultants in the world, Paul Tran.  Paul has been instrumental in building a tremendous number of fast-casual restaurant brands from 1 or 2 mom and pop stores into multi-national names. Paul shares some of his thoughts and secrets to creating scalable businesses and how you can change your mindset to prepare from growth and scalability. This is an episode you won't want to miss. If you want to grow a truly scalable and massive business by using a Virtual Systems Architect, head on over to www.freedominfiveminutes.com and sign up for your Free Business Process Scorecard and Masterclass.   ----- Automated Transcript Below:   Dean Soto 0:00 Hey, this is Dean Soto with www.freedominfiveminutes.com and we're here again with another freedom in five minutes podcast episode. Today's topic is this you can consult franchises into creating great systems that and more coming up. Alright, so welcome to the freedom in five minutes podcast. My name is Dean Soto which I've already introduced, but I am super excited today to have on the show. A longtime friend and one of my business mentors someone who helped me in my in two journeys one becoming an entrepreneur and to getting some pretty amazing systems experience under my belt and I probably would not be be where I am today. I are in fact I know I wouldn't be where I am today right now if it wasn't for this particular person. So this person is named Paul Tran. He is one of the I'm not gonna say one of the he is the best salesman I have ever met by far my mentor and is extremely extremely good. In the in the in the restaurant fast casual restaurant. Kind of systemized and franchising area with with, he does a lot of consulting and all this other stuff, which I'll let him talk about in just a little bit. But Paul, thank you so much for coming on the show. It's so nice to have you my friend. Paul Tran 1:44 It's a it's my absolute pleasure. And again, I feel horrible because you've you've been telling me to get on a podcast for years, even before like if anybody knew what a podcast was. So you're definitely a pioneer and I I'm sorry, I was a little bit insecure about, you know, having my live voice being publicized. But I realized later that, you know, after you've been pushing me and pushing me, I realized, you know, I want to be able to add impact and value to the world and what better way than to do it with a friend and to do it with your audience. Thanks, man. I love it. I'm not giving up on me. I never give up on you. You never give up on me man. Dean Soto 2:24 Cool. So, so I kind of gave a little bit of a little bit of Hors d'oeuvres a little bit of an introduction of of, of who you are, but kind of give from from the very get go of Gosh, even when we met before we met and so on and to where you are now kind of give an introduction of who you are and what you've what you've done over. I would just the past few years. Paul Tran 2:48 Sure. Um, I have a I've been in the restaurant and franchise industry for about 12 years. It all started with a crazy idea to start a restaurant with no cooking experience, you know, no money, I guess nothing that you would normally come in prepared fully prepared for. And I guess there's something cool about being naive about the business. Because when you don't know it can't be done, then you just push through conventional, like, Oh, you can't do that. But I mean, we can definitely get into more detail if you'd like. But pretty much fast forward. A couple of years later, I sold my business, I sold my restaurant that I ran for three years, I got an offer to be bought out for multiple times what we what we put into it, which is great. And I also worked for the largest franchise development company in the world. And that's Fran smart, they're based in DC and Irvine, which is kind of during the time where you and I met, while I was helping a portfolio of restaurant chains grow from, you know, mirror one unit to unit or mom and pop, you know, a couple units, couple corporate stores, and, you know, consulting and connecting these brands with systems and manuals and the right franchisees and a lot of other things that help, you know, change the mindset and the composition of a mom and pop shop to a global, globally recognized brand. And during that time, you know, of course, I was heavily in the networking circles. I also, you know, cared a lot about, you know, doing nonprofit work. And that was during the time where, you know, Twitter was just, you know, super on fire, and everybody's using it to have a conversation connect with people that they otherwise wouldn't have, and initiatives get, you know, initiatives are able to be carried out with the group of people without barriers. And you and I, we we just, I don't know how we found each other to be on. I just just think through mutual, mutual Twitter, friends, but I think we all just share this idea about hey, you know, there's a lot of people who are networking going to these networking events, trying to build their own businesses, why not add an element of, you know, giving back to people, there are a lot of like nonprofit initiatives that don't get enough of a voice, you know, the American Heart Association and all these other massively budgeted nonprofits get a lot of love, and they get a lot of TV time. What about these small organizations that make just as much impact if not more, like direct impact? And how come they don't get any voice? So we just partnered up with a lot of nonprofit organizations and locally, for example, I think we did one for a share ourselves where we, we had we had, you know, people find help homeless people get into a temporary, you know, hotel room situation until they figure out what they can do to, to sustainably get them back on their feet. You know, you and I, we we planned along with all of our other friends, you know, Neil and Debbie and, and all that with a we we just held networking events where people would donate money and also be able to promote their business at the same time, like do do good by by doing well, by doing good, I guess. So that's pretty much how we met. Dean Soto 6:22 It was so cool. It was it was awesome. But that's to remember connect to see when we did when we had night show from from American gladiators there. Paul Tran 6:31 Oh, yeah. Unknown Speaker 6:34 I was like, yeah. Paul Tran 6:37 That's crazy. Dean Soto 6:38 Yeah. That was that was powerful. Man, that was powerful. But yeah, like, so yeah, we, we definitely you one of the things that you you were so open with with social media, and we ended up connecting and everything like that, through that. And then ultimately, I, at the time, started actually working with you. Were you were mentoring me on the the franchise side of franchise development and how how franchises worked anyway, and all this other stuff, when it came to, to building out all of these these exclusive territory type franchises. And so with like, with that experience, what has what have you seen, I'm just going to kind of jump right into kind of success with because you've seen with all the development, you've seen what's worked and what's not, with, with restaurant businesses, which has, they have extremely tight margins, extremely tight margins. And so when it translates to other businesses, it is actually easier for a lot of other businesses because they don't have as tight margins. So what has been the, like some of the big success factors in growing a franchise and actually having someone be successful in a business like that? Paul Tran 7:58 Sure, sure. Now make this joke where every time I hear a friend, they have a different business, and they share what they do. And they're also really generous and sharing what their margins are, oh, man, I'm in the wrong business for 12 years. But I'm just kidding. I think that I think I'm in the business because, of course, I love food. And another thing is like, oh, razor thin margins, Challenge accepted. But I think as far as keys to success with restaurants is I think the first thing is you you you need to know that. You know, whereas a lot of companies can can be wasteful or can give a lot of slack to costs here and there. You do need to know that, like, it's a penny, it's a pennies business. And you need to be able to be meticulous and vigilant about cutting costs in everywhere. That's, that's appropriate. And because there's 1000 things that you can cut costs on in order to make the margins and you also need to rely on not just cutting costs, but more importantly, generating the revenue. Because McDonald's, you know, sometimes you wonder why, how could they sell $1 cheeseburgers in a market, that's, you know, the, the inflation and all the other costs of doing business are growing, they're not going down. And it's all about, it's all about volume, you need to get a lot of people through the door. And so it's a balance of making sure you cut costs, but also making sure that you know, you're constantly reaching out to the community, finding ways to get customers in the doors. And I mean, that's pretty much it in a nutshell. And also, you know, it's not just that, but also cutting costs where it matters and being a little bit more not reckless, but being a little more loose on certain cost. For example. If you really think if you really think that customers, think about this customers who come through your door, even though you think they're paying just $10 for For example, one of my restaurants to Hello guys, they they're paying just $10 for a platter. Think about this, like there's, we have customers that come to three times a week. And that's, you know, that's over 10 times a month. Yeah. And I did the math and over time, like these customers are worth like $25,000. So, so if you know, you don't want to be cheap with your loyal repeat customers, like if their order isn't right. Or if you use our loyalty program where you find out that you have VIP customers like you can like treat them, you can take very good care of them. You can throw a little bit caution to the wind because they're the ones that are going to sustain your business like what what is a $10 totter if you're getting $25,000 in return? And so it's the long game on that one. Yeah, Mark. They're small, Dean Soto 11:00 but it's the long game. That's cool. That's that's awesome to hear. Because, because yeah, that's that. That's interesting. I remember telling you, it was it was not too long ago, I was I was with Oliver he was he was consulting with somebody in Tustin, I went down. I was actually down in that area. I think I think I even saw you when I was when I was down there. But anyway, the I went to one of your competitors a different ice cream place that that had this franchisee who we literally were there for like 20 minutes, man just waiting for ice cream and there was like there was probably three people in there who had ordered and this franchisee was literally having the having the staff member that you know 18 year old kid measure out and way how many sprinkles they were putting in to the ice cream. And, and and no joke. It was it was where it was even a hair off of what it should be. They were taking it out putting it back in and taking it out. Put it back in. And I'm sitting there going You gotta be kidding me. Really, you're literally going to lose a customer like I will never go back there ever over three sprinkles, because it's it's you know, one one milligram over what it should be. Paul Tran 12:33 That's Yeah, that's like what's what's the cost to the customer experience when you do that? Right? Yeah. Well, I'm going to back up and say that that's a You and I are going to talk offline about you going to my competitor. That's a sore subject still, but I'm just getting better. Dean Soto 12:50 But you so like that being said, with with you. So you have Hello guys is one of your brand brands that you that you're a franchisee Have you what other brands do you also have? Paul Tran 13:04 Yeah, so my partners and I, we we have 12 Hello guys stores, restaurants across Southern California, our I'll continue to build more. We have most of our stores concentrated in LA County and or Orange County, and we're going to be venturing into San Diego County this year. So that's pretty exciting. I also own two college and ice cream stores. Which it's funny because both these clients it's a it's a story of insider trading and double dipping. Because both these these brands that I'm a franchisee of I initially was their consultant, I helped turn them into a franchise first as a as a client consultant type basis. And then I turned back around and said, Hey, I actually want to actually want to be a part of this more than just a from a consulting standpoint. And so I built the team paid the franchise fees and open stores for them as well. So what money they paid me in terms of consulting, I turned it back to them royalties. And it's been a good relationship. That was like you said, you basically go in there, you make sure that they're successful. And then when they're successful, you're like, Dean Soto 14:13 yeah, okay, now I'll be a franchisee. Paul Tran 14:17 Yeah, I knew all the Yeah, I I joke around and say that's the legal insider trading. Oh, that's cool. So yeah, Dean Soto 14:26 let's talk. So about your consulting, then like, so what? Like, what are some of the things like so for example, like with that, I don't want it to be about specific, because there's probably like proprietary stuff, but what are some of the things you see as a consultant, that with with your brands right now that either lead to success, or that don't lead to success that they You see? Paul Tran 14:52 It question? A lot of so when I worked at France smart, when I worked there, and also now that I'm on my own, I noticed that in 100% of the time, my clients are, you know, brands who are small, who do like a mom and pop, and they're not entirely sure how to get to the next level. You know, you and I probably have a really deep conversation about this on, you know, how is it that, you know, McDonald's franchisees can open 20 stores, and I can't even like, think about opening a second one. Yeah. And so I think a lot of it's a mindset shift. And they need to, they need to learn to let go on a lot of core things, that a lot of things of the business that are, you don't need to be doing them. And you also need to systematized a lot of things, you know, you can't, you can't possibly be doing payroll can't do scheduling, you can't do the hiring, you can't do 1000 different things that a restaurant requires to do, because your head's gonna spit. And yeah, of course, you can't do opening a second store because you think you're going to be doubling the workload. And so it's all about a mindset shift where I'm the owner, I need to be the CEO of the business. What that means is that I need to build the corporate structure, I need to hire people that build a team, you can't do this on your own. It's like that concept of being, you know, penny wise and pound foolish, like spend a little bit of extra money to to build the team to put the systems in place. I had to be honest with you, like for my whole guys, chain of stores, like we built 1312 stores within a five year period. And there's no way I could have done that if I had not raised capital with friends and family and people who believe in what we're doing. Yeah, I, we couldn't do that without hiring district managers, we hired people who are already ready to be district managers. So we hired them how to time we knew that we're going to scale so we built the bandwidth to scale. And we already trained them to develop them to do a lot of the things that are critical to the business where it allows us to focus being on being more strategic. And all that costs quite a bit of money. But, you know, guess what, it's it's either one store, and either you can make 100% of one story, you can make a pretty nice, you can share the the equity and that the profits in order, you know, over 10 stores or 20. Stores? Yeah. So I think it's just mainly the mindset show, I think a lot of the tools, I think there's no, there's no shortage of tools, systems, this stuff, but it's all it's all up to the business owner to change anything course. Dean Soto 17:41 That's that's a, that's a great, great, great point, is because Paul Tran 17:47 there's a matrix kind of thing, dude. Yeah, Dean Soto 17:49 for sure. It's funny, do you find that? Because it's actually hard for me to even think the way that I used to think where is I was definitely on the, on the I want 100% of one business? Or one thing? You know, the, do you find that once you've taken the red pill of, of, Okay, well, I'm going I know there's gonna be a dip in profit, or I know there's going to be a dip in, in what I would see, but I'm building this the scale do you do? Do you see that as? Is it hard for you to even think the original way now where it's just have one do you do you find yourself thinking more in scaling, since this is what you've been doing for a while now. Paul Tran 18:34 Um, you know, it's always easier to give advice versus take your own advice. So, um, you know, our business, you know, has its ups and downs. And, you know, it's easy to get sucked back into, like, Oh, we should cut costs, like, in a big way, we need to cut this department, we need cut labor tremendously, you know, just because there's business cycles in our restaurant business, for example, genuine to time, during wintertime, you know, after sorry, after the New Year's people have new year's resolutions, they want to eat healthier. They also, you know, blew all their money on Christmas. And our business is slow for the first couple months. And, you know, I'm human, and I have these knee jerk reactions. And it's like, oh, man, we got to cut costs. And again, I might end up being guilty of that same dude that was measuring one millimeter, on and off during those times. So it's, I get that way sometimes. But as each year goes by, and we continue to grow, it becomes less and less Oh, wow. Because it's, you know, long term thinking is manifested in like, wow, this year, we have 13 stores this this year, we have that nice. And it's because I didn't I didn't focus on the, on the, on those insignificant, unnecessary things. So yeah, I fall victim to it to it. So. But yeah, Dean Soto 20:01 but yeah, that's, that's a very human human human response to that question. So with your consulting now, what what do you find yourself doing the most with your consulting? I think it's so cool actually seeing you, you help brands to become really big? And what, what's kind of been the focus with your consulting lately? Paul Tran 20:28 Yeah, um, yeah, a lot of the consulting is still a lot of, you know, small restaurant chains who, who are interested in franchising, they've received some inquiries from customers saying that they want to franchise they just don't know how to do it. You know, most of them are so buried in their work that they, you know, just for example, like stock trading or, or government compliance work, I mean, that's a full time job, they just don't have the capacity to do it. So there, they there, they're making money, they are seeing a lot of success. They're getting interest in inquiries for franchising. They don't have any systems in place, and they're just curious to know, you know, where they should start. And that's, there's no one size fits all strategy. And I think that's why that's where the value of my consulting comes in. And there's also so much decentralized, like so much conflicting information on the internet. And there's a different strategy for retail, there's a different strategy for service franchises, and there's a digitized for restaurants. And so all that stuff. I guess all that confusion makes me look a lot better as a consultant. But yeah, that's the reason why they come to me. I mean, a lot of times, maybe they have done an amazing job with building a sexy brand. And they build a viral following, but now they don't know how to turn this into growth. Yeah. Or they don't they've they've gone through the you know, they, they they're doing really well, they're there. They have a lot of customers through the door, but they're not making any money whatsoever. Yeah, yeah. Or, yeah, a lot of it is, you know, they've, they've been a franchise for a while, and they've kind of just been floating. not growing up, not not not failing, and they just need to get out of this. Maybe this invisible barrier that they've been in. So, so many different, so many different reasons why I've been consulting that's it's fun. But yeah, that's it's all over the map. Dean Soto 22:34 That is awesome. It seems like it's a different, it's a different a different challenge, depending on who it is. And and each one has its own kind of solution to a lot of that, like what's a? So with all of with all of that. What has what is kind of going to ask you that aha question. I always try and ask this, just to every person who's on the freedom in five minutes podcast, what is what has been the single most whether it be for you, or for one of the people that you consult for the single biggest kind of five minute mindset shift or five minute thing, strategy tactic, whatever has brought the most results for you or for people who you've actually consulted for? Paul Tran 23:34 That's a loaded question. That's a thought provoking question. For me, I think there's a lot of aha moments, but you're asking about like for clients Dean Soto 23:44 can be for you or for clients, something that were where there was just something that that is really a paradigm shift for you or for your clients, that once it happens, it puts them them or it has put you on a trajectory to massive success. Paul Tran 24:01 Sure. This is going to be a little bit self serving. But I think the biggest thing has been the introduction of virtual systems as architects. And I know, you know, this is what you do, and this is what you specialize in. And I want this, I want the audience to know, this is completely as objective as unbiased as possible. But I think the game changer for me, and also the game changer for clients of mine, I think the biggest value is not my gift of gab or, or my ability to sell or anything, but it's mainly like the advice that, you know, there is a better way to systematized your business. And there's a much better way to get work done without the the assume high costs of hiring good people to do. You know, one of the biggest things that you've done in my life team was to introduce virtual, you know, back then virtual assistants, where I've had virtual assistants for probably five, six years now. And they've been able to make my company look a lot larger than it is, it's been able to get a lot more done with numb and not let me be the bottleneck. It's allowed me to enjoy my work a lot better to, like I can enjoy with actually helping clients and actually giving advice. And as far as paperwork and administrative work is concerned, the stuff I really hate, they kind of go away because I do have a virtual assistant that takes care of it. They take a lot of the stuff away so that I can just do the thing that I think is the most strategic valuable, valuable thing for myself and for for clients. And it's funny, you and I, I felt like I've been keeping that a secret for five, six years. Okay, I was kind of like, I don't want other people to know, like, how I get people, like, you know, how do you own so many restaurants and you do consulting and you travel, like, I kind of love it kind of stroke my ego that like, they think it's all me. But that's definitely the selfish, short sighted way of thinking, I think over the years, you and I just realized that, you know, we can't be the only ones that, that that are that need this. And so you and I, we've done some some consulting gigs together, you've actually, you know, you've been generous and coming down to help with clients client work as well. And, you know, my aha moment was also another clients aha moment, right? Yeah. And we we consulted for some, some good friends and also a large chain that was growing very rapidly. But the pace of their growth, which you know, the name, we can't disclose it, but at the pace that they were growing like they were, you know, multiply they're their labor, you know, big time. And our time there our time, like just an hour, they're not five minutes sorry. Are, well, if they find me, the five minute decision that we spent there, made them realize that there is a better way and you introduced helping them find virtual systems architects Yeah. And they love them so much, I believe they're going to be increasing their virtual assistant, Dean Soto 27:27 they actually just got another one. This week, they start. So so they were they're extremely happy. And, man, they're like, they're, they're using them for like the for hiring, they're using them for a whole bunch of different things. They're, they're, they're crazy when it when it comes to it, and they've, they've expanded a lot since since since we first even talked with them. And that expansion is just going to continue to grow. Because, you know, they're not. The cool thing about them is they, they can rely on these these guys who who are a fraction of the cost, right? And, and they get everything documented. And so now they have this new guy come in, and guess who's going to train the new guy, it's going to be the virtual systems architect that was there before. So they don't even have to do anything. You know, it's it's, it's, that's, that's, yeah, it's cool that you brought that up? Because obviously, it's a little self serving over here, too. Paul Tran 28:30 No, no, but but but you and I like I like the reason why I love you, man is because, you know, we're selling, you know, we're selling to help. Like we don't, we wouldn't, we wouldn't promote anything that we wouldn't believe in that we do ourselves. You know, for example, like, I was working with all guys and collagen ice cream, and I love this so much I sold myself on it. And these virtual systems architects have been so helpful to so many of our clients, that I mean, it's it should be kept the secret, especially with minimum wages now in LA, like 13 $15. And that's Dean Soto 29:05 the base salary as base. Paul Tran 29:08 And I did research like, if you do you all the costs of like lyst, the job interview, the time it takes training, developing, what if you lose that person, you had to do it again, all that stuff, you end up adding almost doubled the costs like for for someone who's $15, like the cost of, of create a hiring training, developing is like making space for in your store and pay for HR, you have to pay paid? Like there's so many things like as I say that, like, it's, I'm sure business owners that are listening to your podcast, like I don't want to hire any more people. Like, even if I'm growing. I don't want to deal with the hassle. Yeah, but but hiring these people at a fraction, like you said, you don't pay any, you know, you don't you don't pay any of that training, development stuff. In fact, they take over so much more than people think virtual assistants take care of like, for example, you said, Now you've been able to help my client, like hire people, interviews, manage all the stores, Dean Soto 30:06 actual virtual systems architect is doing the interview, which is which is crazy to think of. But you know, they had that they had the system, they had the guy document how they wanted the scripts to be in, and how they wanted the systems to be and everything like that. And then boom, the guys doing it. Paul Tran 30:24 It's It's crazy. Crazy. And also like my vert, my, my PSA, she she does my bookkeeping as well. And I just did it out of curiosity to quick search on bookkeepers, they're like 15 to 20 bucks. And I don't I don't pay nearly that much. And she doesn't just do that. But she does. She helps me with sending client contracts, she now she helps with my restaurants as well. She helps them with scheduling, hiring all the HR paperwork. And now she's going to start helping me with reaching out to the community for marketing purposes. So like, it's, it's, it's the work of like maybe five good people here in the US. You know, like, it's, it's incredible. I could talk about it for hours. Dean Soto 31:13 And we'll maybe we'll have you back on and we'll talk about doing with it. That's awesome. Man. I love hearing. I love it here in it. So so how can people find out more about Paul and what you're doing and and have you as a consultant? Because I would I would imagine that you would even consult outside of outside of restaurant franchises and stuff because you you have the systems experience, you have the growth and stuff like that experience. And so how can people find out more about you and what you're doing and how to reach you? Paul Tran 31:44 Oh, sure. If you I think the platform that I use most is LinkedIn for business purposes. So if you look it up, it's linkedin.com slash forward slash i n forward slash Paul teacher. And that probably the best way to connect with me on a on a business level. If you want to know just what's going on in my life personally, and just for fun, I'm pretty active on Instagram as well. So if you look up at potty train on Instagram, that's definitely the way to go to. And Dean Soto 32:20 he's always traveling, like if you want to see like some crazy stuff, that he's always somewhere I'm like, I'll go on Instagram, and I'll see Oh, Paul's in Alaska right now with the polar bear. And I just saw him yesterday What the heck. You definitely gotta go check them out. And, and yeah, he one of the best consultants that I that I know. And still is one of my mentors. So you are one of my mentors, man. Paul Tran 32:49 Oh, thanks for it actually works both ways. I learned so much from you as well. And again, my aha moments actually because of us. So I appreciate you so much. Dean Soto 33:00 Likewise, likewise. Cool. So thank you so much for being on the podcast. Guys. If you want to find out more about Paul, go and hit him up on LinkedIn. Go and hit him up at Instagram. So that is Paul T. Tran. So that's that is his username on both of those Paul T. Tran. Not Paul Tran because that's somebody else. Paul T. Tran. Go check him out. If you want your business to start growing and just getting just massively massively, just massively expand. Definitely hit him up. talk with him. He is absolutely amazing when it comes to growing a business especially with the branding and marketing and everything like that side of things as well. So go check that out. And as for now, we have reached the end of the podcast but does not mean that this is the last podcast. Oh, what's up? Paul Tran 33:55 Is it all? Dean Soto 33:58 Yep, sorry. Sorry. disappoint. Yeah, you have to come back again. So that'll be that'll be a fun fun thing. We'll talk more about the virtual systems architects and stuff. But until then, everybody thank you so much for listening to the freedom in five minutes podcast. My name is Dean Soto and we will check you out on the next freedom in five minutes podcast.

Josh is dangerously excited for March Madness, and the stream of consciousness flows into the college admissions cheating scandal, graphic T-shirts, views of prestigious colleges, and way too much being caught on tape in the world of sports. Rate it, love it, believe it, know it, see it, want it, It's It oatmeal cookie vanilla ice cream...what is it, it's what? No clue, but stream it, NOW! Thanks for tuning in.

June Diane Raphael joins Jesse and Jordan for a discussion of Town Cars, The Bachelorette, yoga etiquette, and It's-It.

In this week's exciting episode: stuff! Hey, I'm just the producer. I don't really listen to what they're saying until I actually listen to the show on my iPod. I'm really just listening for key phrases that mean I have to do stuff. I seem to remember some talk about Halloween, Andy's upcoming annual Dick-or-Treat festival, holidays not on their right days, It's It ice cream bars, Haley Paige, some other porn star named Vicki really enjoying her job, yet another reference to my daughter's wrinkly foot (friend me on MySpace to see it), and a new feature that may or may not be coming soon, "Podcrapular Lite". Here are some links to some things Andy and Golfwidow talked about in the show this week: Julie Do Ya Love Me Blog This, Pal Golfwidow's Mom It's It The guy who voiced Roger Rabbit Sperm Shack (NSFW, duh) It's really weird to type that while I'm in the living room and my daughter is watching Teletubbies about five feet away. If you're interested, the music behind "Previously" is Tori Amos, "Big Wheel", from her new album American Doll Posse. Yes, she definitely is a MILF. (Don't you forget...) Okay, enough. Listen to the show now. I'm done talking.

Hell, I don't know. Andy was trying to get me to say things that would make good sound bites. The Comic Adam's Video Page Hash House a Go Go Carol Stream Microburst The Greenbrier Resort, Gladys Knight, Adam Ace, and 1964 The Tribute It's It Last but not least, Haley Paige. This is about as safe for work as we could find. Anything else you want of hers, you'll have to go look for it yourself.