Podcasts about like i'll

This week, the How to Launch a Book series continues with everyone’s favorite: book launching on social media. Twitter. Instagram. Canva. PicMonkey. Crello. Pinterest. Linked In. Head blowing up yet? We talk about planning your launch social media, how to use social media and image-creating apps to share and promote and why you shouldn’t feel one bit like you’re talking about your book too much when you’re launching it into the world.We also fall apart a bit, here and there, because these are falling apart times, and we feel it.#AmReadingKJ: Where the Crawdads Sing by Delia OwensJess: The Secret History by Donna TarttHow to Be an AntiRacist by Ibram X KendiMiddlesex by Jeffrey EugenidesSarina: Pale Rider Laura SpinneyDon’t forget to check in with our sponsor, Author Accelerator. They’ve got a special book coaching class happening in June on coaching historical fiction, which I would love to be a fly on the wall for—as well as introductory and master classes on book coaching, and, as always, the ability to match you with just the right book coach to help you move your work forward.As for us—we send out a MiniSode or a Writer Top Five every Monday to our supporters. Your support pays for the production and transcription of the podcast, and is the reason why, this week, you don’t also hear my conversation with the child who walked in while we’re recording. Also why there’s music and a fun opening. Because we hired a professional, because it’s good to do these things right. So thanks for chipping in—and if you’d like to join us, click the button.KJ Dell'Antonia 0:01 Hey writers, it's KJ. This week we are continuing our book launch series and Sarina is schooling me on getting all my social media ready for a fiction launch. At our sponsor, Author Accelerator, they're offering some different schooling this month, June of 2020 with classes in book coaching. There are introductory classes, master classes, and (this fascinates me) a special class this month on coaching historical fiction. I love that they're getting so specific, and I would love to listen in on that one. If you're intrigued find out more at authoraccelerator.com. Is it recording?Jess Lahey 0:40 Now it's recording. KJ Dell'Antonia 0:43 This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone and try to remember what I'm supposed to be doing.Jess Lahey 0:47 Alright, let's start over.KJ Dell'Antonia 0:48 Awkward pause. I'm gonna rustle some papers. Okay, now one, two, three. Hi, I'm KJ Dell'Antonia and this is #AmWriting, the podcast about writing all the things, short things, long things, fiction, nonfiction, essays, book proposals, pitches. In short, this is, as I say every week, the podcast about settling down and getting your writing work done.Jess Lahey 1:18 This is Jess Lahey I am the author of The Gift of Failure and the forthcoming The Addiction Inoculation. And you can find my work at the New York Times, and the Washington Post, and The Atlantic, and various other spots.Sarina Bowen 1:29 I'm Sarina Bowen, the author of 35 romance novels and the most recent one is called Sure Shot.KJ Dell'Antonia 1:35 I am KJ Dell'Antonia, author of the novel The Chickens Sisters coming out July of 2020 and the book How to Be a Happier Parent out in paperback now, as well as the former editor of the Motherlode blog and column at the New York Times where I am still a contributor. That's who we are. And this week, we're continuing our how to launch a book series, in which we sort of try to cover all the different arenas of things that you can get ready for before your book launches. We've done Amazon, Bookbub, and Goodreads. We've done websites. And now we're going to turn our attention to social media.Sarina Bowen 2:22 That beast called social media.Jess Lahey 2:24 Such a powerful tool sometimes. Well, and I know for a fact that when I talk to authors who are sort of contemplating the social media sort of for the first time in a professional context, they're just so overwhelmed. They're like, do I have to do all of it? So Sarina, do we have to do all of it? Do we have to do Pinterest, and Instagram, and Facebook, and do we have to be good at all of it? Because that's the thing that seems to overwhelm authors.Sarina Bowen 2:52 Absolutely. You will find it overwhelming because it is overwhelming and you don't have to do it all. You absolutely have my permission not to do all of it. So, of course, everybody has their favorites. So you really need to ask yourself two questions. And Jess, you've been super articulate about this, too. Like, the two questions really are, which platform is your favorite or which platform makes you hate it the least? And the corollary question, which is almost as important, which platform is your people?Jess Lahey 3:45 Yeah, where's your audience?Sarina Bowen 3:47 Yeah. And you and I have discovered that our answers to this question are like 180 degrees different, whereas you talk to educators all the time on Twitter, and my audience is really on Facebook and Instagram.Jess Lahey 4:04 Yep. How did you figure that out? I mean, for me, it was fairly obvious from the get go because I think I started learning about personal learning networks and realizing, oh, that's where all the teachers were. And I was using it for teaching. But then, of course, when I started writing something that was about teaching, it was sort of a natural fit for me. But did you have to go looking and sort of figuring out where all those people were for you?Sarina Bowen 4:28 I really did have to pay attention because there are a lot of authors on Twitter. But at one point, somebody said to me, Twitter is where I go to talk to other authors. But I reached my readers on Facebook and I thought, okay, well, that feels a little bit familiar. But I'm a really analytical person and I like data. So of course, I've been using all of these sites, at least partly, for kind of a long time. And I realized that my Squarespace website (and every website does this in some capacity, you just have to find it, but it has really good data about this) it's called traffic sources is the page that I look at. And under social media in the last 30 days, you can see, or maybe I'm at seven days here. But over some period of recent time, I have gotten 816 clicks from Facebook, 158 clicks from Goodreads, and 78 clicks from Twitter, and 18 clicks from Pinterest. So that tells a really clear story immediately about what's working. And of course, we post fewer links on Instagram and my Instagram shows up on this other page because I use a program for this and I'm getting like 200 off Instagram.Jess Lahey 5:54 Wait, what do you mean when you say that your Instagram is showing up on another page and use an app for that?Sarina Bowen 6:01 Well, let's let's just dive right into Instagram because lots of authors love it. So anyway, what I was trying to say is that you, you can be given permission to cut one of these out if you can see in hard numbers where people are finding you. And of course, a lot of the links that I post on social media do not lead back to my website. So this is just a little subset. But I still find it quite telling and it gave me permission to walk away from Twitter without really looking back and I actually changed my account there. It says now that it's a Sarina Bowen update account infrequently monitored, because I'm not part of the conversation. And it basically says, this is a promo account, you know, do with that what you will, I don't expect to have a grand, wonderful following there, because I have chosen not to pursue it.Jess Lahey 6:57 You know, it's really interesting. I have a column up in TweetDeck - one for you and one for KJ, because I like to keep tabs on what people are saying about my peeps. And occasionally I'll find stuff before you guys see it. But what I often see are cross posts from Goodreads with a tweet saying what percentage they are through him via Goodreads. And it's really clear that people are letting Goodreads cross post to Twitter for them. And that's the majority of what I see from readers regarding your books, which was a really interesting realization to me that it's sort of not that the readers are necessarily there, but that they're letting Goodreads cross post for them.Sarina Bowen 7:39 Yeah. And can we just back up to the part where you said you have a column on TweetDeck, but that column is a special thing. That's a search column, right?Jess Lahey 7:48 Right, right. Meaning I have a search column with quotes around your full name and a column for you on @SarinaBowenUpdates or whatever your handle is. Just because I like to just know what's happening with my people. Sarina Bowen 8:05 That's amazing. Jess Lahey 8:08 It's fun, I like to see what people are reading of your stuff. And you know, it's always fun to report back that when people are saying nice things.Sarina Bowen 8:15 You know what, at one point I had a column like that. But I found that I didn't always want to know all the things that were showing up there. Jess Lahey 8:26 That's probably true. I've seen some things that I didn't necessarily want to see. But that's also how I found out about that thing where I was my one of my essays was on the SAT, because people weren't tagging my handle on Twitter, they were just saying mean things, and making memes about me using my name and sometimes misspelling it, but either way, that's how I found out that I was on the SAT and that all the high schoolers in the country hated me that year.Sarina Bowen 9:05 We're still on Twitter, so let's let's finish Twitter because I want to know something that I'm not good at on Twitter because like I said, I don't use it that much. But how do you use hashtags to find your audience?Jess Lahey 9:19 Well, it depends. I use hashtags on Twitter for education stuff, simply because they're chats that happen, like more chats than I can even tell you. If you do a Google search on education hashtag Twitter chats you will get this table that has hundreds of Twitter chats. So occasionally, I'll use them for things like you know, I need a particular book for kid a particular age and then I'll hashtag a couple of reading or teaching literacy hashtags, but I actually don't use hashtags very often on Twitter. It's not so much my jam.KJ Dell'Antonia 10:03 It's not like Instagram, there's not a lot of room for them. You just use a hashtag, unless you're joking.Jess Lahey 10:10 There are exceptions, though. I mean, like if a big education conference is going on, I'll throw up a column for that education conference and follow people at that conference so that I can see what's going on, and find out what people are talking about, and things like that. But for the most part, yeah, I don't really use hashtags. I don't use hashtags the way people use hashtags in Instagram. It seems to be a bigger deal in Instagram than it is on Twitter, at least for me, that may not be the case for everyone. But definitely for me, hashtags are not as much a thing on Twitter.KJ Dell'Antonia 10:42 I think that the reason to use them on Twitter tends to be because your being part of a conversation is around a hashtag. So it's often political, but not always. I mean, that's why. Whereas on Instagram, because people rarely reshare because Instagram makes it hard, I will follow certain hashtags. And then from those hashtags, I might find new accounts to follow. Because for example, I'm actively looking to follow people who write about the kinds of books that I write. So I follow a hashtag for that. I don't do that in Twitter for a lot of reasons. One of which is that I just don't go on Twitter anymore.Jess Lahey 11:30 I absolutely just misspoke though. Because in looking for this new audience for the new book, I actually do have a list around people in recovery and then I also do have a column for hashtag recovery or hashtag sobriety or hashtag sober so that I misspoke. Because I don't know the audience as well in the recovery world as I do in the education world, I do occasionally go mining and looking around just to see who's who, who's talking about what, who's reputable, who's not, sort of who's in the conversation, and those hashtags can occasionally help me access that.KJ Dell'Antonia 12:09 And I think the thing for Twitter is that if you're a nonfiction author, especially, but it probably works in fiction as well, is that you can end up in a conversation with an expert that you might want to reach or a fellow author that you might want to reach because if they're putting out a tweet, and you reply to it, it's just different, then they might tweet back. And because they're actually actively on there, well depending on whether or not they've scheduled their tweets, but usually the kind of thing you'd reply to isn't that, so there's an opportunity for connection there that's a little bit different, but I don't know. It's sort of more general. It's not a lot to do with launching your book. Jess Lahey 12:57 Well, for me though, the one thing I do though is if I find someone who's in my demographic squarely, someone who I really am interested in following on Twitter, and who I think really follow some interesting people, whether it's recovery or education, I will go through who they follow and sort of say, oh, look, there's some people I don't follow and follow those people. So that can be really useful too, if you're new to a field. Going and looking. For example, if you were really interested in like COVID stuff, and PPE, there's this woman, Dr. Megan Ranney, who's out there in the media a lot and Megan would be a great person to go follow and then look at who she follows because she probably follows a really reputable group of people within that field. So that's a really great thing to do, too. For example, if you were writing your first novel, and it happened to be a women's fiction novel, go look to see who like Jennifer Wiener or KJ Dell'Antonia or Jodi Picoult, who do they follow? And obviously, there might be some interesting people for you to follow in there as well. So that's been really useful for me.KJ Dell'Antonia 14:05 But to specifically bring us back to book launches, I will say one thing that I did on Twitter with my nonfiction book launch, and I think Jess may have done some of the same thing, is to tweet everyone I quote in the book. So when I was launching my nonfiction, I prepared in advance a bunch of tweets that were like, 'Thanks for your help with How to Be a Happier Parent, Jessica Lahey, it's out now.' They were a little better than that and I had those all revved up and ready to go and either scheduled or not, so that's a way to let people that were helpful to you know, so that hopefully they will share. So that's one way to use Twitter. And another way is to ask other people to tweet for you.Jess Lahey 14:50 Right. And, you know, our groups of friends can be relied on to really boost us if we need them. But it's been really fun watching for a friend. Like when Catherine Newman's book was first up on Amazon, and you know, it'll be out by the time this podcast goes up. She did that. She said, I want to thank @JessLahey for supporting me in this book by blurbing it and blah, blah, blah. And that sort of reminds me, oh, yeah, I really support this book I want to help. So you're right, that's a really good way to do it as well.KJ Dell'Antonia 15:25 Right. And so then another thing that you can do within Twitter is to create tweets about the book that people that are on your email list could send out. And if you go to share link generator, you can write a tweet that then you can create a link and you can put it in an email, you can put it in a blog post, you can put it on almost anywhere and say click to tweet. And if someone clicks that, then their tweet pops up, it's editable. So what I do with that, is I send it out to a bunch of people that I know, but maybe my email list, maybe my launch team, maybe just 20 people that I have collected, and I say, it would be awesome for me if you would tweet about the book. Here, I've made it easy. Click here, and you get an editable tweet about the book with all the links. And the person clicks. And it says, 'Hey, I'm so excited to welcome KJ's new book, The Chicken Sisters into the world.', and they can change that too. You know, 'I've read this and I love it' or 'I hated this I never want to hear from this author ever again'. You know, they can change it to anything that they want. But it's already there. And it has the links and it makes life so much easier. And I always kind of boggle at people who don't. People who just send me an email and say would you mind tweeting about the book? To do that I have to go find the link, and then I have to think of something to say, and I have to go on Twitter, I mean, there's like four steps in there. Whereas with share link generator, you can make it a one click deal. It also works for Facebook, but we're not on Facebook yet.Jess Lahey 17:09 All right, are we done with Twitter?Sarina Bowen 17:11 I would like to propose one last thought on Twitter that's actually applicable to all of the platforms we're discussing today. Which is that by the time any author gets to her launch day, she feels as though she has been talking about nothing except her book since the beginning of time. And she is a little bit sick of herself and the whole topic. But I would just like to say that Twitter specifically has a sort of short half life of each tweet. And even if you feel you've been discussing your book way too much, launch day is not the moment to change your behavior. Like it's the one day when everyone will forgive you for talking about your book launch a whole lot. So you know, hang tight and put out yet another tweet about your book on that launch day because that is your moment. And not that many people will see that tweet, even if you are sick of yourself.KJ Dell'Antonia 18:14 And to save yourself the agony of spending your launch day writing 10 different tweets about your book. Write him ahead of time. I mean, then you've got them. I've got a Google spreadsheet going in which I'm just dumping possible posts or make the images that you're going to use have them all ready and just know what you're going to put out there so that you don't have to generate it while you're sort of feeling that 'Oh my God, I've been talking about this forever.'Jess Lahey 18:54 This week coming I believe is my copy edited manuscript and I have scheduled for when that has to go back in and then I'll have another date coming when I'll hopefully get my galley proofs. And my plan is to go to those looking at my copy edits with a highlighter so that I can highlight a few tweetable, Instagram-able, quotable things that I can make Canva cards for from the get go. Because I'm probably not gonna want to go through the manuscript to the fine tooth comb again, after I do it for all these edit things. So why not do both at the same time?KJ Dell'Antonia 19:30 I did that with the novel as well.Jess Lahey 19:34 So smart...KJ Dell'Antonia 19:35 Sarina, you do something a little different. You do sort of the 'Here's what you can expect to find', which I always think is really fun, which I am also doing now.Sarina Bowen 19:49 Well, Jess mentioned Canva cards, and let's just spend a minute on Canva, because it's a really useful tool of mine. Canva is a graphic design program at least that's what it calls itself. And there are many there's one called Crello there's several versions of this beast, PicMonkey, lots of places where you can use templates and make cute designs fairly easily even if you're not a Photoshop human. But what I love about Canva specifically, and I actually have the paid version of it, is not only is it good at designing stuff, but it will save it for you for later. So when I'm feeling it in terms of promoting my book, and I'm not sick of myself on a particular day, I can go into Canva and mess around with things like quotes from the book, or thank you for your support, or anything that has to do with that design. And you can actually make pages each Canva document, you can just duplicate the thing you made, and delete the quote and put in a new one. So it's really good at sort of holding your design brain in one spot.KJ Dell'Antonia 21:10 And you can resize it for something else. So you can duplicate it and then resize it into Twitter size, or Facebook size, or LinkedIn size, or Instagram story size, instead of Instagram post size.Sarina Bowen 21:25 Right. I think the resizing is part of the paid portion, or at least it used to be, but that was definitely something that I enjoyed getting after I became a whatever it's called pro member. It's not very expensive either. It's like, the whole year costs $200 or something like that. So Canva is definitely a great tool for when you're switching from Twitter to Facebook or you want to play around with a checklist. Those checklists you were just talking about that I make are also wonderful in Canva. And another thing I do if you have chapters in the book that you're launching, and those chapters have titles, I like to make countdown chapter titles because as you hurtle through that month towards your book launch, it's great to be newsy. And so I will make let's say, chapter eight of my book is called, 'Is that really a duck?' I will make a Canva card that says in eight days I will bring you chapter eight, 'Is that really a duck?' And then the next day, I'll have one to post that says, in seven days, I can bring you chapter seven, 'The duck went fishing', and on and on because I've taken the trouble to give my chapters funny titles or informational ones, and it just gives you something newsy to put out into the world as you count down to your terrifying book launch.KJ Dell'Antonia 23:04 I did that with nonfiction, too. I did it with How To Be a Happier Parent and it was fun and it was helpful and it was just it just felt like something to say. And I made little cards, and it kept me busy, and gave me something to say. Jess Lahey 23:25 I just want to underline this whole planning ahead thing, because if you are waiting until the very end to think about doing these things, you're going to just be so overwhelmed. So the clear message here is be thinking about text, tidbits, strategies, things you want to do ahead of time so that you're not overwhelming yourself the week of pub date.Sarina Bowen 23:45 Definitely.Jess Lahey 23:46 Because that would be insane.KJ Dell'Antonia 23:48 And let's talk a little about the goal of all of this. It's not going to sell millions of books, you're only probably reaching... So when you ask other people to share on social media, you're reaching their followers and when you're sharing you're mostly reaching your own followers and some retweets. But I think something important to remember is that people need to see the book more than once, usually before they head over and click and buy. And sometimes they don't even remember where they saw it or how they saw it, it just becomes familiar because you've posted a lot of imagery around it. But you haven't made it annoying, you've made it fun, you've made it entertaining. So when people see that title, when they're surfing a book site, or hopefully in a bookstore, it makes them go 'Oh yeah, I've been thinking about that one.' Jess Lahey 24:44 I definitely hear that a lot that you know, we've talked about this before, that it's the repetition and sometimes it's the second, third, or fourth time that someone says 'Oh yeah, that book that I meant to buy the first time I heard about it, but didn't.' KJ Dell'Antonia 24:57 So to some extent, that all means that if you don't do it during launch week is just an excuse to do it. If you don't do it during launch week, fine, the next week do something different, create a bunch of things, and start putting your book out there. We don't need to panic if we don't get it all out there on launch day.Jess Lahey 25:24 You know, what's so interesting about the social media thing too, is that there have been all kinds of attempts, there was that thunderclap thing that was a couple years ago where you'd ask people a favor to all tweet and post something to social media the same exact time and I don't think that that had any kind of effect and it was a huge amount of effort. And it sounded like you were getting something done, but I don't know that it actually had any major effect. So when we talk about these things that you're supposed to do on social media or that you could do on social media, we're not saying that you have to do all of these things and they're going to have a major impact on book sales. But every little bit, you know, can help. And as we always like to say, we don't want to get six months out from book release and say to ourselves, 'Oh, I could have done that other thing. I wanted to be able to say, we did all the things that were under our control that we could do to help our book do well on launch day. But that thunderclap thing was very weird, I think anyway.Sarina Bowen 26:26 It was an attempt to make virality happen where it wasn't destined to.Jess Lahey 26:33 Exactly, to force a lot of noise all at the same time in the hopes that it would catch fire. And I don't know, I just mixed metaphors. But I don't know that that was a particularly effective thing to do. And I like to be sparing and what I ask other people to do to help me out and being a part of something like that wasn't something I was particularly interested in.Sarina Bowen 26:54 Right. I don't think I once participated, but it was an interesting experiment.Jess Lahey 27:00 Alright, anything else that you want to add to this discussion about Twitter or Instagram?KJ Dell'Antonia 27:07 We didn't do Instagram...Sarina Bowen 27:09 We should do Instagram, which is growing faster than the other services that we've been talking about. Jess Lahey 27:17 Sorry, in my head I kind of thought we had sort of done Instagram because in my head I associate Canva with Instagram, so mentally I had gone there. So my apologies. Sarina, Instagram. Sarina Bowen 27:59 Instagram is a platform where sharing doesn't really happen very often. So you kind of have this one moment to put something visual and beautiful in front of people and hope that it sticks with them. But discovery on Instagram also works a little differently than it does on other platforms, which is that hashtags really matter on Instagram. So, before you are launching your book, you want to figure out what hashtags people are using who are looking at books like yours and I have a little collection of these I keep it handy.Jess Lahey 28:42 There's a lot of them for authors and writers and books on Instagram. There's a ton of them, so good for you having a list.Sarina Bowen 28:50 Well, I have several lists, honestly. So if I'm talking about my own book that's coming, I will use bookaddict, booknerd, bookworm, booklove, booklover, contemporaryromance, romancereads, IGreads, oneclick, alwaysreading, you get the idea. There's a lot of these.KJ Dell'Antonia 29:08 And let me guess that you have a list that is pastable. Sarina Bowen 29:11 Oh, yes.KJ Dell'Antonia 29:12 So where do you keep that? Sarina Bowen 29:14 I happen to keep it in notes, that little yellow app on all things Apple that is just really handy. But you could use Google Keep for this, you could use any program that you keep handy. KJ Dell'Antonia 29:26 I use Evernote and I have thought about using Keystrokes. Because since Instagram really requires that you use the phone. You know, you can't post to Instagram except on a phone. So if you go (in an iPhone, at least) into general, and you go to keyboard, you go to text replacement. You can make a series of letters and put them all in there and then when you type that series of letters they will all pop up. Sarina Bowen 31:00 KJ taught me this nifty trick because actually I use it on Instagram too, which is that I have thank you and some longer phrases for thank you spelled out in German, French, Italian, and Portuguese, because Instagram is a really international platform. And at least half the tags that people are using for me on Instagram are in German, honestly. God bless German instagramers. So I have three different German phrases saved in those Keystrokes that I apply when somebody takes some beautiful picture of my German book and tags me in the post so that I can be thankful without writing danka, danka, danka, danka all day long.Jess Lahey 31:50 Yeah, that's really brilliant. And I'm actually going to need your help because I got tagged in a couple of things that I needed a Portuguese thank you for and I didn't have it. So that's really smart and really thoughtful. Sarina Bowen 32:06 So, that whole keystroke thing and being made to create stuff on your phone is kind of a drag. Thanks, Instagram, you can actually hack your way around this by installing a Chrome plug-in that fools your Instagram into thinking you're on a mobile device when you're not...But my current setup is that I probably have the picture on my phone anyway because I use an iPad to create a lot of imagery, and then I type whatever I want onto my notes on a laptop, and then I just open it on my phone, and copy and paste, or I rely on Bluetooth to copy from one device and paste into another. Because I am never, ever composing an Instagram caption on my phone, my thumb's are not that good at typing, it's just not happening. So there are several ways to keep your Instagram feed looking good. And you don't need to do that. Like you don't need to become obsessive about the beauty of your Instagram feed. But, there are moments when I want to kind of work hard on this. So I have an app called Preview that I use to look at what the grid will look like before I post and some people use one called Planoly. And there's also Later which is a posting to Instagram app. And if you change your Instagram to a business account, you will be allowed to schedule via some of these third party things so that it could post automatically. I don't actually do that, I don't need to post Instagram so often that scheduling is super helpful for me. But I know that a lot of people like to do it that way.Jess Lahey 34:13 But if you want to see a beautiful Instagram account, go check out Sarina Bowen's Instagram account. The gold standard seems to be what some book bloggers and some romance readers in particular seem to do for the authors that they love, and the people who create these gorgeous Instagram posts for you just blow me away. I'm amazed by the kind of artful creations that your readers create, and that you create for your books. They're really beautiful.Sarina Bowen 34:45 They blow me away, too. KJ Dell'Antonia 34:47 Well, you can use those when someone else makes a beautiful image of your book or just makes an image of your book because my goodness, thank you very much. You can do a couple of things. You can post it to your story, which is only polite I think and quite common, but you can also use an app that will allow you to repost and in this case I use Repost. And if you're using an app like that, then when somebody else posts about the book, you can take their post and use it in your feed. Thus, you know, adding to your number of images that you have without you're having to create an image which is really cool. And there's the opportunity to sort of say, you know, thanks bookstagrammar for writing this lovely thing about my book, and then you can share the lovely thing.Jess Lahey 35:38 What's always weird is when someone thanks me for posting something beautiful they made about my book to my story, and I'm always like, 'Oh my gosh, thank you. This is the most beautiful thing ever. And it's such an incredible honor to be able to repost that.' So it's a wonderful, it's also just a great way to sort of connect with readers. I love it.Sarina Bowen 35:56 Repost and those apps also will copy the entire caption that the other person wrote...KJ Dell'Antonia 36:04 Including the hashtags.Sarina Bowen 36:07 Yeah, exactly. So that not only are you assured an easy way of giving credit to the person who created that thing, but it's very easy to share. So because we never want to get into trouble and have any creator think that we've stolen their work for our own. KJ Dell'Antonia 36:28 Yeah, that's the nice thing about using the app instead of screenshotting it, is that it makes it very clear where you got it. And it's just socially acceptable.Sarina Bowen 36:38 Yep. My other trick for working ahead on Instagram is that I don't commonly have more than a small handful of paperback arcs to give away ahead of the launch. So I went to Moo and I made a bunch of these beautiful five by seven postcards. Like I'll do like 150 five by seven postcards of the book cover. And I will mail them all over the world because like I said, Instagramers are very international. And then I will see those postcards pop up all over Instagram during launch as well. And they cost a lot less than a paperback arc and it's honestly really about the shipping, I can put $1.15 stamp on one of these cards and send it all the way to Australia, whereas shipping a book to Australia costs $25. KJ Dell'Antonia 37:38 And that sort of gets around you know, if you want to be sharing arcs, they can be digital, but there is something that people can take a picture of, which is really nice. People love having something to take a picture. I love having something to take a picture of. I don't do LinkedIn, but I have some friends that do it really well. And so I'm just gonna ask them when my book comes out will you post this on LinkedIn, please? But if you are a business writer, you probably should be.Sarina Bowen 38:22 Definitely.Jess Lahey 38:24 Absolutely. The business world is very much about LinkedIn. And you know, I will post things there but I actually don't see a ton of interaction with the stuff that I post there. So it's often an afterthought for me. Alright. Can we talk about what we've been reading? Pretty pretty, please. Sarina Bowen 38:53 Absolutely. Has anyone been able to read?KJ Dell'Antonia 39:00 I will note before we talk about what we've been reading that we didn't talk about Facebook.Jess Lahey 39:05 I think that's a whole long discussion in itself. I mean, that's just me, mainly because I hear Sarina talking about the stuff that she does there. And she's on a whole other level with Facebook and I sort of have the feeling that that's its own episode in and of itself.KJ Dell'Antonia 39:23 Okey dokey. There we go. Stay tuned. We got one more book launch thing to go. Jess Lahey 39:34 KJ you have been doing a beautiful, beautiful job, by the way, speaking of Instagram of talking about what you've been reading, and you've really done a great job of doing these capsule reviews of books, and you've sort of set a standard, I think, for me anyway for understanding how to do a really quick review of a book. So I just wanted to tell you that I have been appreciating those a lot.KJ Dell'Antonia 39:56 Why thank you, I'm actually planning to up that game. So, I've been creating a whole list of books that I want to make sure get shared. This is partly just the the whole let's help make book book launches still work. So I've got a whole great list of books that I want to share with people that are either books that I recommend and here's why, or books that I have had an arc of, or books that I'm super anxious to read. And I've been putting together ways to do that. So yeah, I've been having fun. This is a public episode. Get access to private episodes at amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

PHP Internals News: Episode 54: Magic Method Signatures London, UK Thursday, May 21st 2020, 09:17 BST In this episode of "PHP Internals News" I chat with Gabriel Caruso (Twitter, GitHub, LinkedIn) about the "Ensure correct signatures of magic methods" RFC. The RSS feed for this podcast is https://derickrethans.nl/feed-phpinternalsnews.xml, you can download this episode's MP3 file, and it's available on Spotify and iTunes. There is a dedicated website: https://phpinternals.news Transcript Derick Rethans 0:16 Hi, I'm Derick, and this is PHP internals news, a weekly podcast dedicated to demystifying the development of the PHP language. This is Episode 54. Today I'm talking with Gabriel Caruso about his ensure correct signatures of magic methods RFC. Hello Gabriel, would you please introduce yourself? Gabriel Caruso 0:37 Hello Derick and hello to everyone as well. My name is Gabriel. I'm from Brazil, but I'm currently in the Netherlands. I'm working in a company called Usabila, which is basically a feedback company. Yeah, let's talk about this new RFC for PHP eight. Derick Rethans 0:52 Yes, well, starting off at PHP eight. Somebody told me that you also have some other roles to play with PHP eight. Gabriel Caruso 0:59 Yeah, I think last week I received the news that I'm going to be the new release manager together with Sara. We're going to basically take care of PHP eight, ensuring that we have new versions, every month that we have stable versions every month free of bugs, we know that it's not going to happen. Derick Rethans 1:17 That's why there's a release cycle with alphas and betas. Gabriel Caruso 1:20 Yeah. Derick Rethans 1:21 I've been through this exactly a year early, of course, because I'm doing a seven four releases. Gabriel Caruso 1:25 Oh, nice. Yeah. So I'm gonna ask a lot of questions for you. Derick Rethans 1:29 Oh, that's, that's fine. It's also the role of the current latest release manager to actually kickstart the process of getting the PHP, in this case, PHP eight release managers elected. Previously, there were only very few people that wanted to do it. So in for the seven four releases it was Peter and me. But in your case, there were four people that wanted to do it, which meant that for the first time I can ever remember we actually had to hold some form of election process for it. That didn't go as planned because we ended up having a tie twice, which was interesting. So we had to run a run off election for the second person between you and Ben Ramsey, that's going to go continuing for you for the next three and a half years likely. Gabriel Caruso 2:11 Yep. Derick Rethans 2:12 So good luck with that. Gabriel Caruso 2:13 Thank you. Thank you very much. Derick Rethans 2:15 In any case, let's get back to the RFC that we actually wanted to talk about today, which is the ensure correct signatures of magic methods RFC. What are these magic methods? Gabriel Caruso 2:24 So PHP, let's say out of the box, gives the user some magic methods that every single class have it. We can use that those methods for anything, but basically, what magic methods are are just methods that are called by PHP when a given action happens to the class. So for example, if a class is being constructed, then the construct magic method is going to be called. If I'm calling serialize function, then the magic method serialize as per PHP seven four or PHP eight. I don't remember, so this is basically what magic methods are, are methods that PHP hook into the classes and then once a certain action happened with the class, then PHP is going to call those magic methods in something magic, so to speak is going to happen. Derick Rethans 3:13 And other options are like underscore underscore get, and underscore underscore set. Gabriel Caruso 3:17 We have, we have a lot. Derick Rethans 3:19 Exactly, what do people tend to use these magic methods for? Gabriel Caruso 3:22 So that's something interesting. As the magic method is called by a number of actions we can use, for example, for let's let's get the example of ORM for example, Doctrine or Eloquent or whatever one. Let's say I'm a maintainer of that library. I don't know what fields do you have in your database. So when I'm porting, when I'm doing the translation, what it can do is map in a property, all those columns and values that I have in the database. And then when you instantiate your entity and you try to access a variable that is does not exist, then we're going to go to a magic method in this case is get, as I said, and I'm going to say okay, is not set in the class, but is mapped in the entity that I have. So this is one case, we also have the case for testing your you have, for example, the famous PHP Unit test framework, every time that a test case is called with all those methods is starting in with test, the call magic method is invoked. And then you can perform whatever action you have. You also have middlewares and the examples go go even further Derick Rethans 4:32 In the title of RFC you have the word signature, what is the signature? Gabriel Caruso 4:37 All the attributes that our method can have. So for example, the name of a method is its signature, what does it return? What parameters does it take? And also what modifiers so for example, is it static or not? Is it public, private or protected? So all this information together in usually is one line in PHP. So for example, private static MyMethod, that receives a string and returns a Boolean. There you go. This is the signature of my method Derick Rethans 5:06 Because some of these magic methods have been in PHP for a long long time. Back in the time where we didn't have argument types or return types or perhaps not even static. All the way back from the past PHP hasn't really done anything with signatures because they've simply didn't exist. At the moment which signature checks this PHP already do? Gabriel Caruso 5:26 I don't remember a by the RFC but I think was introduced together with the scalar type RFC. But only constructors and destructors until PHP seven four, those two only magic methods were being checked. If they have none return type, not even void, just no return type. But in PHP eight, we're gonna have the new stringable interface and then every single toString magic method. If it is typed, this is very important if it is typed it needs to be a string and these are the only from the 17 that we have only three in PHP 8 are being checked. Derick Rethans 6:01 PHP seven four. Gabriel Caruso 6:02 Yeah, in PHP seven four only two and then PHP eight, we have the new toString. Derick Rethans 6:07 But this RFC suggesting to change that of course. Gabriel Caruso 6:10 yeah. Derick Rethans 6:11 What's the reason why you want to extend these checks to the other magic methods? Gabriel Caruso 6:14 That brings me back how I figured out that. I was looking at some bugs, because we have the https://bugs.php.net, where we centralized all the bugs of PHP. Then there is a bug report explaining in complaining exactly about that. Like, I can't hide my magic method. Back in the days I can say, for example, that my tostring method is going to return an integer or a Boolean. That makes no sense. And then I was like, yeah, makes makes no sense. We need to fix that out and then I start to search how do we type that? How what types do we have and then I was like, we can't in PHP eight, because this is going to be a new major version. So we are allowed to at least vote for do that. We can check if someone is using types, we can check those types. We are not going to force, we are not going to require, we're not going to evaluate even run static analysis. Nope, we're going to simply check. Okay. Are you saying that this get magic method is going to return anything? Okay, that's okay. Oh, but I want to my guess is that you specifically return a string. That's also okay. As to how to pronounce that liskov mistook principle, right? Derick Rethans 6:36 The liskov substitution principle. Gabriel Caruso 7:26 Yeah. And so this is what we're going to basically do with this RFC, there's going to be voted. We're going to simply check if you're using the right types, because, in my opinion, magic methods are a foundation in PHP. As we have theses methods across different code bases across different projects from different behaviours, at least when I'm looking at that code. Okay, I'm looking at this magic method. I know what parameters does it take. I know what return does it have. This is worth less tab to the bug are trying to understand what is happening. Because today maybe I'm debugging a toString method there is return an integer. And I'm like, okay, this is the bug, it's supposed to return a string. But once you ensure those all those signatures, is one less bug that we're gonna have in production. Derick Rethans 8:17 When are these signatures being ensured? Gabriel Caruso 8:19 It's not at compile time because he does not have a compile time. But he's when the Zend machine is compiling the code, we have a very specific method that is checking all the modifiers. So for example, the signature that we mentioned before so all the magic methods needs to be public. This has been checked, for example, they callStatic magic method needs to be static. So this has also been checked. And then I'm extending how do we check for signatures for param types and also for return types. So during compilation of the Zend VM. Derick Rethans 8:52 Taking as example callStatic in the RFC, I see that the name has to be a string and the arguments has to be an array. What happens if you use a different type there? Gabriel Caruso 9:01 So nowadays if you use a different type that's allowed. So if you say there, you're going to receive an integer, and you're going to receive a string. This is allowed today. And this is what I mentioned about when you are debugging or analyze different code bases, you're going to be like why in the documentation says that we need to receive a string and an array, and there's this specific code base is receiving a string and an integer. So this is what kinds of mismatch I want to avoid. Of course, when using types, because we also know that PHP in some projects does not use types. And that's perfectly fine. If you're not using types, I'm not going to ask you, hey, you need to type those magic methods. Well, what I'm going to do is okay, you're using types and I need to make sure they're using right otherwise this is going to be a mess. Derick Rethans 9:47 If you type it; say use an integer for the name of underscore underscore get, will give you a warning or a compile error, or parse error? What what kind of feedback which you get back from that? Gabriel Caruso 9:59 While you are running your code, as soon as that class get referenced, we're going to check. Is not when is initiated, when is not when is called, as soon as I think the autoload detects that class is gonna parse, is going to identify, and then is going to compile and during the compile time that we mentioned. We're going to identify that. So it's going to be early in the stages. Perhaps as soon as you run something or you would upset me, you're going to have that feedback saying: hey, this is not compatible with what we are expecting. Derick Rethans 10:32 Is that a warning or type error? Gabriel Caruso 10:34 It's going to be a fatal error, because this is what we are constantly returning with the destructors and constructors. Derick Rethans 10:41 Yeah, we alluded to mixed already a little bit and the RFC mentioned mixed a few times, of course mixes in the type and PHP yet. So what do you want to do about that? Gabriel Caruso 10:51 Today we are 11th of May of 2020. Right now we have an RFC voting in PHP to introduce the mixed type. I'm not going to say if I agree or disagree, it's being voted. If that RFC gets accepted then I have already talked with the authors of the that RFC, I'm going to wait until they merge into master. I'm going to rebase and readapt to my RFC, to have those mixed types. And there we go PHP eight probably can have mixed, and probably can already have the usage of mixed in the magic methods. So either No, I'm gonna need to wait for the end of their RFC. If it's approved, there go I need to rebase my PR. In the other case, we are going to keep as comments because we can't ensure that in the compile time with the VM. Derick Rethans 11:41 At the moment, it looks like that vote will and in May 21. The current votes are 35 to six for passing. So it looks like that will go through Unknown Speaker 11:50 And then I need to rush because we have the upcoming feature freeze of PHP eight. So I need to make sure that I start to vote and implement my RFC before that time. Derick Rethans 12:00 Feature freeze should be by the end of July. So I think you have plenty of ime pfor that. And of course you have a release manager, you can make an exception. That's how that works. Usually adding extra checks will have impact to existing code. Is there much impact to existing code here as well? Gabriel Caruso 12:18 That was the interest question that I made myself. Okay, I'm going to touch the magic methods of PHP. I'm going to break some code in an issue identified those breaking changes in an each map in the RFC. How do I map across many projects, many libraries, many PHP codes out there? How do I do that? I remember that Nikita back in his RFC about the parenthesis origin, like how do we present this ordering and yada yada yada. He made a script, where he went through I think was the top thousand or top 10,000 packages. On packagist, that is the official composer package provider and he identified everything, and ask myself how he did that. And actually was very easy. He just cloned other repositories. He instantiate a new PHP parser instance that is his magic parser. That is behind PHP Stan, is behind psalm, is behind a lot of infection, a lot of big projects, where you analyze the code. So you have a code base where you can analyze and say: Do I have magic methods wrong? And then I run this script, identify, I think six or seven types that were not perfect. Three of them. I have already submitted a request because we're in PHP Unit and I said to Sebastian: hey, this actually is not right. Because I'm proposing this RFC, he was like: Okay, perfect, let's merge it. And the other cases are the cases that I mentioned. For example, with get. Get, you need to return mixed but by the LSP, you can nail down to an integer or a string. So there you go, at least in the top 10,000 packages of composer is not going to be a breaking change. But of course, it's going to be breaking change for people that I can't map. So this is why it's mentioned the RFC that if you're using types with magic methods wrong, we're going to warn you. Derick Rethans 14:13 But at least it's an easy thing to check for. Because even running all your files through PHP minus L should catch it. Gabriel Caruso 14:20 Yeah, there you go. Derick Rethans 14:22 So it's a very easy to check for something. You provided a link to Nikita's script where he checks for those ternairies, do you have a version of your own script available as well? Gabriel Caruso 14:33 That's interesting. I thought the RFC was updated. So I'm going to update the RFC, because I do have the script locally. Derick Rethans 14:39 Then I can link to it for the podcast as well. Gabriel Caruso 14:41 Okay, perfect. Derick Rethans 14:42 In the future, are you thinking of extending checks to a few more things? Gabriel Caruso 14:46 So this is something that I fought about this RFC, like how much you want to break and explode people's code. And I think starting with checking types in the signature is the first step. The next step is to actually check the return type. We do that with toString. So for example, although you have type right for maybe, some logic or something is wrong, you're returning an integer. There is a check before the actual type saying you're supposed to return a string you're return an integer. And actually, there is a check in the magic method saying this magic method was supposed to return a string. I think is gonna break even more code because then it's something that I can't measure. So I was like: Okay, let's first start with types and then we can give it next step that is: okay, inside this method, what is being returned, okay, is something different from the signature: explode. You're returning something that I was not supposed to return. But this is not a fight that I'm going to pick. So I leave it up for the next major version of PHP or whatever. Derick Rethans 15:49 Wouldn't PHP's strict versus weak type mechanism already catch these things. So from debugInfo, if you would type that as returning an array, and then you end up returning an object, which is not necessarily wrong, just not what you expected. PHP's return type checking mechanism should already catch that for you. Gabriel Caruso 16:13 If you have a magic method typed. If it's not typed, so we can say that some efforts do have that check. And then we're going to expand when we don't have types in the signature. Derick Rethans 16:24 That's clear now. Do you have anything else to add? Gabriel Caruso 16:27 The only thing that I want to add that is, I have created another RFC, and this is something that I always tell everyone that is easy to do; is not impossible. Anyone can go there, identify a bug or catch a bug report and then try to fix it. And this is what I'm doing. Like I'll do them to release many of PHP eight. I'm also fixing bugs, improving documentation and everything else. This is something that I try to do and share with everyone. So everyone can also be the next one contributor to the to PHP and it's evolution. Derick Rethans 16:57 This RFC isn't out for voting yet. You set you want to sort of wait until mixed gets passed or not. What's the reception been so far? Gabriel Caruso 17:05 So I asked a couple of key members of the PHP community, both internal and external people. They agree, they said that the right approach is to first check for the signature, because if someone is already using types, that project is type friendly, so we can at least play with that. But if someone is not typing, then this is a bigger fight. And then we're going to talk about that in the future. Derick Rethans 17:29 Thank you, Gabriel for taking the time this morning to talk to me. I've learned a few more things about this RFC, so that's always good to know. And again, congratulations of being the PHP eight release manager together with Sara. Gabriel Caruso 17:41 Thank you very much. Also thank you for inviting me for this new podcast is amazing. Always listen to all these famous people of PHP that talked with you. And I'm like, Whoa, Derick has invited me this is going to be so much fun. Thank you very much. Derick Rethans 17:55 Thanks for listening to this installment of PHP internals news, the weekly podcast dedicated to demystify the development of the PHP language, I maintain a Patreon account for supporters of this podcast, as well as the Xdebug debugging tool. You can sign up for Patreon at https://drck.me/patreon. If you have comments or suggestions, feel free to email them to Dderick@phpinternals.news. Thank you for listening, and I'll see you next week. Show Notes RFC`: Ensure correct signatures of magic methods Credits Music: Chipper Doodle v2 — Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) — Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0

How long should your YouTube videos really be? Some say the shorter the better, while others say having longer videos will get more people's attention. In this podcast, Nate Woodbury shares his take on the matter. Stay tuned to find out how you can get people to watch your YouTube videos all the way to the end! Welcome back. How do you make your videos longer on YouTube? Right? And why do we want to make them longer? Because we've been told shorter is better. But you're going to learn some things why you want them to be longer. How long and how you can do that. How you can come up with the content so that your videos are exciting for that length of time. The quick answer is 10 to 12 minutes. You want your videos to be 10 to 12 minutes long. So we're first going to talk about why that is. Why 10 to 12 minutes? Then we're going to talk about your gold, your secrets. How much of your secret should you share, and is there anything that you should hold back? Then I'm going to introduce a way that you can actually simplify your process. Make it really really easy to narrow down your content but also make sure that it's 10 to 12 minutes in length. We're going to talk about repetition when it's bad and when it's good. We're going to talk about stories, and then we're also going to talk about having multiple tripods. Now, what do I mean by that? Wait a minute. What just happened? Okay, that was weird. We're going to talk about why we use multiple tripods. And we'll wrap up the videos talking about tightening up your video. How to actually shorten it to make sure that it's really good but yet still long enough. So, why 10 to 12 minutes? YouTube recommends between 7 and 16. I like 10 to 12. 10 to 12 is kind of the good round number that people are expecting. That's the experience that a lot of consumers of YouTube videos have. Most channels kind of hone in on that. And here's some logic behind that: YouTube posts a new ad every 10 minutes. So, the longer you can keep people on YouTube, the more ads will be able to show to them. And YouTube wants to make money. The cool thing is they pay half that revenue to us. That's a topic for another conversation. Like I'll link that up here how to make money on YouTube. But that's one of the main reasons why to have your videos that long as you want good watch time. The more watch time you have, the better your channel will perform. Now, the other reason for going 10 to 12 minutes - and this is a huge one. That's how long it really takes to build a connection and cover most topics thoroughly. Now, the next point I want to cover is, do you give away your gold or how much you share. You know what? I'm going to say it right now. Give away everything. Give them your gold. Now, how can you do that in a 10- or 12-minute episode, right? Because all this knowledge, all this experience; how can you just give them everything? Well, you narrow it down to a very very niche Pacific topic. So, let me give you an example. Paul Jenkins, he makes a lot of videos on parenting. But we did keyword research, and we found questions like "How to get kids to listen without yelling?" Or "How to get kids to go to bed on time?" You know those are so specific. And if Paul were just to make videos on parenting and how to be a better parent, it's like how do you narrow that down, right? And how do you get specific enough? You could just talk and talk and talk and yet not be focused on anything. But if the title of our video is "How to get kids to listen without yelling?" Imagine having just focused 10 minutes of content on that exact question. That's going to be a really valuable video. But now you're probably asking yourself, "Well, wait. If I give away everything..." Right? You're just giving it in these 10- or 12-minute chunks. But if you're just sharing all your secrets on YouTube, are people still gonna hire you? Are they still going to want to buy your courses or go through your programs? And the answer is absolutely. The more you give away on YouTube, the more value they will get, right? The more that they will value you and like and trust you, in their mind, they're going to think, "Wow. This channel is so valuable, and he's giving me all this for free. I can only imagine what his course is going to be like or what her course or her program or her event is going to be like." Here's the other reality: You can give them everything on YouTube, but a very small fraction of a fraction of a fraction are actually going to implement it. They're just internalizing it. They're just opening their minds to it. They're kind of having this paradigm shift of recognizing, "I could do this." When they're ready to take action, that's when they click the link and go to your website and find out how to work with you. They don't want to do it themselves. Now that they understand this, they see the value in it. Now they want to hire you. Now, you're going to deliver the same content but packaged quite differently. It's not going to be packaged in 10-minute episodes that answer their specific questions. On YouTube, each episode you're answering a specific question. In a course, you're going to take them sequentially through your content. You're going to give them assignments. They're going to be taking action. And here's the other interesting part: YouTube, they didn't pay money for. So, there's nothing holding them accountable. There's no exchange of value, right? They haven't committed themselves to anything. But if they pay a couple thousand dollars for your course, now they're committed. They're going to implement it, right? They're going to take action. They're going to take it more seriously. They're going to start to act on this knowledge that they get from you. Now, can you be repetitive? Is there a time and place to be redundant or just repeat your content or give it a summary? And the answer is definitely yes, and definitely no. Within the same episode, you do not want to be redundant. You do not want to go back and summarize and review everything that you've talked about in the video. Why not? Because people will leave. Okay? If they feel like, "Oh, I've gotten everything that's been trained." In this video, the remaining 5 minutes or 3 minutes is just a summary, just a review. They'll leave and go to the next video. Or they'll leave and walk away. So, as a default rule, never do a summary at the end of your video. And if you run out of content, just end the video there. Don't get repetitive or redundant. If you want to keep people on the video longer, then share another story. Stories are always good. Stories are fun. Stories are entertaining, and it takes the information that you've shared and makes it applicable. Here's what you can do, though, from episode 1 to episode 5 or episode 15. You can repeat the same principles. You can teach the same content. You can have a lot of content overlap. In fact, that's a good idea. Because people that are watching all of your videos will really learn those principles from lots of different angles. Most of the people who are watching these videos haven't seen the other ones. They're being brought to you from YouTube. They've never heard of you before. They're watching a brand new video. So you don't have to be hesitant about them seeing something in a previous episode. They probably haven't. Now, to talk about stories a little bit more, a story can definitely help make your video longer. But it makes the video better. Here's an example. Here's a story that I can share about a video that we made that's 20 minutes long. First I filmed a video with Kris Krohn called "How to invest your money in your 2o's" It's about a six-minute video. We made this a few years ago. The video got up to about 60,000 views, and when I looked in the analytics, I saw that most of these views came from suggested views. That means YouTube was suggesting our video to other viewers to watch after the previous video. When you see stuff like that, you notice that there's an opportunity. And so Kris and I decided to do a second video with that same title, it's called a sequel. But we wanted to make it better. We wanted to make it longer. So, in addition to telling the same story, Kris thought of other things that he could share to make the content a little bit longer. I also filmed it in another way. Instead of just sitting still on his pool table where it was in the first video, we decided to walk around and have the intro start differently. So, I had him pull up in his BMW i8. The wing door went up. He climbed out, and I followed him with my glide cam. So, he's talking as he's walking into his house he's kind of explaining things as he's going and pointing out things as cleaning lady happy to be vacuuming. We weren't planning on the video being 20 minutes, but that's how long the video was. And it actually has a really high retention rate. People are watching a lot of that video. Because YouTube likes long watched time, this video is done really really well. it's had over 5 million views. Now, you notice I was just sitting, but now I'm standing. I'm looking into the same camera. But I've got a tripod set up right here pointed at a chair over there. So, I'm just moving the camera back and forth from one tripod to the next so that we go from location 1, location 2, location 1, location 2. That mixes things up. It gives variety, and it keeps people's attention. When I prepare the outline of my content, I'll prepare it in bullet points so it allows me to make the move back and forth really easy. That's another great strategy for making your content long enough. Now, right now, when I look at the time on my camera, it says that I've been recording for about 16 minutes. I've actually been seeing a lot of ahm's and ah's. I've been doing a lot of restarts. You haven't heard those things because my editing team does a really good job of tightening it up. So what I mean by tightening it up is they'll edit out the pauses they'll edit out those ahm's, and they'll edit out the restarts. And sometimes, they'll do a zoom edit or a crop edit like this. So, see now I'm a lot closer to you. And if I were to make a mistake, okay. Watch this. I'm going to do a little test. I'm gonna say a sentence with the word elephant in it. But I'm gonna have my editing team edit out that word but do a crop edit so that you don't know that that word is even missing. Some of my favorite animals are tigers, leopards, zebras. There's lots of other animals that I like. Now, for my editing team, they followed my instructions there. Then you didn't hear me say the word elephant. But when I recorded this, I said elephant in the middle of those animals that I listed. The reason that you didn't really notice that there was a word missing is because they changed the zoom. So, do things like that to tighten up your video. And we've been talking about how to make your videos longer, but you've got to keep their attention. So take out that "ahm's" and "ahh's." Take out the pauses. Take out the restarts so that your video moves along as quick. Use two tripods to keep their attention. That way, you can keep people watching all the way to the end of your ten- to twelve-minute video. Now, they have a good foundation on how to make your videos longer. You definitely need to watch my leaf strategy video. This is the pivotal way to get people to find your videos. These are people that have never heard of you before. Just by following this simple strategy, they're going to be able to find your videos. And now you know how to keep them watching all the way until the end.

Jeff Banman:                 This is going to be a fun episode this week. I've got Benjamin Martin with me. He's a captain in what we will term as a pretty large Metro fire department there in the Virginia area, not Northern Virginia where I grew up, but the lower half of Virginia. Uh, and you know, I getting to know Benjamin reading some of his other stuff in the past, you know, and man, I know you like, like engine company work and I'll forgive that you know right now, but, uh, uh, we'll have some banter about that. But listen, you know, Benjamin is been a pretty, uh, kind of a rising star in some of the areas, was a really unique look at leadership, emotional intelligence, organizational culture. Uh, you know, I listened to you speak here last October, uh, at firehouse expo talking about toxic leadership. Uh, you've had articles across fire engineering, fire rescue, uh, fire department training network, uh, and a bunch of others. And I know now, uh, in conjuncture your full time job, you're also running, uh, embrace the resistance. So let's actually start there cause I think that'll give us a good baseline. And understanding why today's conversation gets to be important. So, Benjamin, thanks for joining me today. I really appreciate it. And you know, give me some, give me some background on why embrace the resistance and what are you resisting?Benjamin Martin:          Well, thanks for having me on Jeff. I've been looking forward to this for a long time, so hopefully we'll, we'll give them something entertaining and informational. So when we talk about it and embrace the resistance, it's really a journey that started 18 years ago. I was a volunteer and I was asked to be a duty officer, which was basically the equivalent of a frontline supervisor. And for me it was, you've been here the longest, which I think at the time had been a year. So a volunteering and I had the seniority and uh, that was it. Like I went in and I worked with people and I barked at them and they barked back and whether it was effective or not, like I don't even know. Looking back now, I don't particularly. It was, but uh, like, so then you freeze that for another eight years and I get hired by a professional department and I decide that let's not make that mistake again.Benjamin Martin:          Let's take some time to develop. But I'm the type a go getter guy. Thank you. You know, and I had some early experiences in my department where I was just working for some terrible, terrible leaders, uh, not human beings, great people, good hearts, just not same boat, same boat. They were never prepared to lead people. And if you think that's not important, then you're probably are way early on in your leadership journey or you're way late. Uh, which is I hope where we can get you in this conversation with kitchen, looking at what you could be doing right now. So, uh, I made it eight years and I worked for good leaders and I worked for bad and then I got promoted and I don't know why. I don't know whether it was because I considered myself a well-read and into the job. So I knew admin stuff.Benjamin Martin:          But I also knew ops and I love pulling hose as much as I do coaching and just building people up. So I really thought that with my energy and with what I knew and my passion is training that it would just fall in and it was just click and it did for about a year. And what I found was, uh, we had a, a senior firefighter that I worked with. He got promoted six months after I got there and then they sent us another senior firefighter and then he got promoted three months later and then it was a spoon, like what's the secret sauce over here at this station? So they sent someone that, uh, affectionately called George now and that's not his real name and his name changes as I traveled throughout the country. But George is the one I usually settle on. And George was a firefighter that was senior to me and George was in a bad spot.Benjamin Martin:          He was going through some stuff that involved a domestic realignment and he was having some issues with accountability for his actions. There were some kids in the mix and young Lieutenant Martin at the time too, had a one-year-old and a pretty steady rock solid marriage. Tried to be empathetic to this gentleman. And that worked for maybe a few months and then it didn't. And when I say it didn't, it was oil and water, it wasn't anything close to mixing. And I realized, and then over the next four months when I finally got to a point where I watched him break down and just cry, that I was probably the most ineffective leader I had ever seen. And I always used to joke about all the people I complained about, but I wouldn't want to work for me back then. Looking back, it was, it was bad. And so, uh, I obviously got in the rumor mill, I got a lot of resistance from folks, even folks that I trusted, you know, I would go with them with things.Benjamin Martin:          And you know, this situation with George wasn't one side and it was very complicated. You know, leadership is, you know, just not black and white at all. And I was trying, I always had it. I always had his best intentions at heart, but I really struggled and communicating with him, I just couldn't seem to get on the same page as him because I had the expectations of a leader of a player and he was looking for the minimum and maybe even below that a little bit. And uh, I forget who said it. This isn't novel, but I love it and I try to let it, you'll know a good leader because they'll understand what it takes to lead someone from where they are instead of where you want them to be and the ability to go from where you are currently to where they are and spend time with them and build them up and encourage them and forgive them when they screw off and be humble about your success and acknowledge that you will have failure coming and walk with them.Benjamin Martin:          That journey, like that's a true for me, leader, follower, dynamic. And I don't see a lot of that and I didn't, I didn't deliver that to George. I just didn't. Um, and more so, you know, we're going to talk about today. Uh, it got to a point where George, where he was getting affirmation and confirmation that he was doing the right thing by fighting me from people, even other leaders, even people in my chain of command. And by the time all the facts come out and you've got, you know, basically dereliction of duty and subordination and not checking truck shop, not wearing his uniform, downloading copyrighted, uh, pornography on the station, wifi, just like ludicrous thing. Uh, and he stayed resolute to the whole thing of like, you can't touch me. You can't touch me. You can't touch me. And then when I finally was able to get him on paper, he still never technically got a writeup because of the events that happened where he broke down and I was like, Oh crap.Benjamin Martin:          Like we know this guy doesn't need to be fired. He doesn't even need it to lose money. He just needs to be loved a little bit. Like, let's get them in a safe place. Let's figure out who the people are that can help him. And I wasn't, I wasn't that guy. And we realized that. And I actually left that team, that place that I wanted to be because it wasn't fair to move him and let him catch the rumor mill, you know, a why of you are only gonna move after six months. And I took that one across the chin and I watched people that knew me and knew my heart just turn a blind eye and a cold shoulder to me. I watched people as I reached out, tell me one thing to my face and then turned around and stabbed me in the back and it was lonely and it's led to depression and weight gain. And now fast forward a year and I'm in counseling myself and my own marriage and I'm like say what an arrogant piece of crap.Benjamin Martin:          Like, like I had it together, which I obviously didn't. And it was at some point during that year where I was dealing with the rumor mail. Um, and I was working, trying to redeem myself and I was trying to get where home was the priority instead of work. Cause I was way in over my head at work and committed to too many things and I was flowing a handline teaching recruits, uh, about nozzle reaction and I set it down and turn it off and turn it off and then set it down and the said, so basically the only time you experienced this reaction is when it's flowing and yeah. And he's like, okay, so just don't flow it like joking. And I'm like, well yeah, I guess, but that doesn't make for a terribly effective fire attack. And I was like, you know, that's the same damn thing for leadership really. When you think about it. Like anytime I've set something in motion, it's reasonable to predict that there's going to be some kind of counter reaction. Unfortunately the fire service as a whole on its culture has gotten to this. Like there's only so much value that I can have. And if this guy has a little bit of that, then I can't have that. And so they try to take it like character assassination and gossip and rumormongering and just nasty things.Jeff Banman:                 And I had to hide somebody. Yeah, I had somebody to go a couple months ago, you know, and I can't remember if the fire service or law enforcement, it's across the board, military fire service across the board, any of ours and out of services we are great at one thing and that is eating our own and we want to just devour our own people and it's absurd and you know, it sucks that it's still going. I feel like it's getting better, but man, it's still like so prevalent. It just, it's tough. Yeah.Benjamin Martin:          Yeah. And just a sidebar here before I've finished that thought, if I can even remember, it was like what you and I are talking about, if not hugs and kisses, we treat each other with kid gloves all the time and we don't, you know, get raw and get real with people and tell them where they need to improve and even demonstrate that by letting people make fun of us. That's not at all what I'm proposing, but there's a difference in my mind between busting somebody's chops and taking them in the balls. I should talk about. It's like dad versus a haymaker. When you jabbed somebody that's friendly, that kid, you know, that's, that's playground stuff. But when you try to land a haymaker on somebody, especially when they don't even know they're boxing with you, that's bullshit. Right? And then a lot of times leaders get in positions where they feel threatened, they feel challenged, and so they throw haymakers.Benjamin Martin:          Uh, and then people on the other side of that respond by throwing more haymakers. And if there's one thing about the fire service, we love to run and tell our peers what's happened to try to build support and get our version of events out there first. And if you're in a formal leadership position, you're really hamstrung in that race because you can't, it's their privacy. So you sit there and you take it and you hear things about yourself and you're like, that's a, that's not true. See, that's certainly not true about who I am. See that never happened. And it's like cow, like day. How do you, how do you even start to get to the root of these things? And you can't. And so in that moment flown that hand on, I made a decision, I was like, listen, you know I'm gonna, I'm going to do everything I can to get better as a leader using George as kind of a near miss.Benjamin Martin:          And then it's in my heart to travel and speak to anybody that'll hear me about this message, hoping that they never ever make the same mistake. And there were other things happening concurrent, which we could talk about where I took a disc assessment, which is basically like a behavior tool, you know about personality traits and dominance and influence themselves and the woman, God, I remember this woman, Jeff from HR looking at me and I knew her. We had a relationship. She had been my coach for about six months and she's looking at this thing and I'm like, just say it. And she's like, ah. And I'm like, Nancy, aK can't like whatever it is. Say it. I need to hear it. And she's like, you ever been accused of being arrogant? And I'm like, yes, all the time. They're clearly wrong. Move on now.Benjamin Martin:          I'm just kidding. No. Tell me about that. Like, tell me about this, this arrogance phase. And so we went through and, and I thought about it and it basically was, you know, overconfident, arrogance lacks empathy and it's like, wow, I didn't think I was coming across that way. I'm a fun guy. Like I was a bartender for years. I played rugby. Like I love socials. Like I'll, I have friends, I have relationships. Like why am I so ineffective at work and this, and about the same time that that disassembled assessment was happening, that I got that feedback. I went up to Lieutenant and I didn't get it. And, uh, I was, uh, I guess I had enough of a relationship with one of the guys on the interview panel that after they made the promotions and then three months later they made more and I got in that round, he was able to talk to me and he goes, you ever has anybody ever tells you that you're arrogant and, or, or her confident?Benjamin Martin:          I'm like, Sue, are you kidding me? And he basically, I almost felt like Nancy had emailed him the notes from the district assessment because he was going for batim and so I called Nancy up and I'm like, tell me more. And that's when my journey down, this emotional intelligence piece started, which was like, and I'll fight this to the death. Great leaders are not just made, but they die and they're reborn and they, they start over from scratch and then they learn and they, and they get better that way. It's just, there's no pinnacle success where you stay there and you certainly don't arrive knowing everything. And to think that is just ludicrous. Which takes me back to the volunteer thing. Why didn't anybody ever like, Hey, what do you like? What do you think about leadership? What do you think a good leader is? What do you think a bad leader is? What would make somebody feel good about you? What would make somebody not trust you? And just to even have that conversation would have been a good platform of, well maybe I don't have all the answers, which is a leadership. You're clearly not going to have all those answers. I'm getting to a place where you can be humble about it.Jeff Banman:                 You're spot on man. I mean, I think that that even, you know, my first massive touch, you know, with like Swift kick in the balls, uh, you are completely failing as a leader, you know, came. And then on the flip side of it, the first book I read is Daniel Goleman's 6,000 leadership. Uh, you know, what she takes and brilliantly lays out, you know, a deep seated understanding of emotional intelligence as it relates to, you know, very distinct styles of leadership that have to be applied in the right time with the right individual, right in the right context. Like there's so many components to it. And, you know, I, you know, I, I tell this story a bunch and because I'm listening to it and he's talking about like the commanding style of leadership and you know, I had just grown up in the fire service, gone in the military, came back from the fire service fire service culture changed, was not doing great with the shifts in the culture if you will say that, you know, late nineties, uh, changes, they're different.Jeff Banman:                 Uh, we're touchy feely for when I grew up and the expectations that I had, you know, for people. And, and it literally, you know, he was talking about, you know, all the great things about being in that commanding solid leadership. And I'm like, yes, yes, yes, we're going to turn around, we're going to try back from my house. We're going gonna make sure everybody listens to this. And they started talking about like all the consequences and all the negativity and all the crap that comes on. You exhaust your people and exhaust. And I was like, shit, he is totally right. And I totally screwed their thought. Yeah, man. I mean it's, I think you're right when you say leaders aren't, aren't even, you know, they're definitely not born. They don't even necessarily grow into it. They may grow into it a little bit and then they fail and fall on their face and then they pick themselves up and they keep going. So it is a moving target, you know, perpetually you will never arrive at a destination where you can look around and be like, okay, I got it. Because everything around you is changing constantly.Benjamin Martin:          Yeah. I can tell you that I think the best leaders, when I look back, and this was what I'm trying to model myself, is when you work for someone who's on their leadership journey and is introspective of that journey and willing to share what they're feeling and thinking about it, right? So that's not even confident, but they're just that secure that they don't have all the answers and they're willing to let people look in, you know, to see what's on the other side of them, including all the, I don't know, I don't know what to do in this situation. Let's try to figure it out together. That's where people buy in. But presenting yourself as arrived and pretending just because your vehicles cross now that you have everything that you need to be successful and everything they need to be successful, it, it just doesn't happen that way.Benjamin Martin:          Um, and saying like, you know, I know there's people listening that are like, Oh, this is crap and this is what I would tell people. Have you ever had a moment where you're having an argument with someone and you realize they're right and you're still not relieved that you know the correct answer, right? The feeling isn't enlightenment. It's resentment that this individual has the correct answer and whether they're your boss or your wife or your husband or, or whatever, it's just so counterintuitive. Like if we're trying to get the right things so we can move forward and, and be successful and experienced success as a group, then I should be happy that this guy or girl has the answer. And all I can think about is discounts. If we can know it all or this guy's an asshole. Of course he has the right answer. And that's the kind of unpredictability that, that people, because even you may never even know as a leader that they're thinking that like I was before the disc assessment had no idea. So yeah, I mean just this introspection and self awareness and social awareness is way, way, way more important than I think. Anything else out there that's been written about leadership? Well that's just my opinion.Jeff Banman:                 Yeah man. No I cause listen, it's a, you know, it's uh, there are so many pieces to this when you begin to, you know, break things down in one, you know, we have this idea of ourself and you know, last week I was telling you in the last week you had bill McKernan on and we really kind of talked about identity and just this very challenging conversation to be a part of. It was phenomenal and challenging all at the same time. But you know, we have perception of self and then there is the perception of who we are from the outside and rarely do those ever really match up. Right. I mean, I internally, I see myself who is, you know, who I am, where my intention lies, you know, I mean even with my wife I will like, like I will screw up. I didn't mean to you, I didn't intend to, but I still did.Jeff Banman:                 You know what I mean? And that's then that triggers for me this shame and guilt and Oh, I'm such a fuck up arm, such a screw up or whatever it might be. Right. And so this internal battle triggers and it's kind of designed around what body didn't intend to hurt you or say that or be mean. You know, that wasn't like at my core, but she can't see that. And it's the same thing in the firehouse. Like we can't see inside each other as to how we feel or what's going on. And yeah, you're right. It's not about giving you a hug. I'm happy to kick you in the ass and move you down the road. But at the same time, I think the biggest thing I've learned in youth, you feed back to this, I try to now, I kind of look at everybody like a five, six or seven year old.Speaker 3:                    AndJeff Banman:                 when they're kind of acting out, when there's some behavior out of the norm, it's like, okay, what's going on here? Because you're a little kid is showing up and you know, you, you feel unsafe, you feel unheard. You know what I mean? There's something causing this, this reaction, you know, cause I was, the more I've gone even deeper and deeper and deeper into some other areas, man, I, I really see that we're all kind of, you know, six year olds running around in grown up bodies. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, we are, because we don't feel great about ourselves. We don't feel safe in the environment. We don't feel safe to communicate things or say things, you know? Now we're scared we're going to be judged. I mean, there's all kinds of behavioral patterns that come out when sometimes all we need are like, you know, a little Jeff just needs a hug. You know what I mean? Like a little George pulled George just needed somebody to freaking, you know, needed it, needed to crawl up on dad's lap somewhere and feel safe for a minute. Cause he's unsafe at home. He's unsafe in the firehouse, he's unsafe in his own career. He's unsafe and his own decisions, like he's just completely unsafe everywhere.Benjamin Martin:          Yeah. And a lot of times people, no go, sorry, go ahead Jeff.Jeff Banman:                 No, I was going to say, and, and, and you know, and he's looking around and like nobody's providing it. You know what I mean? So goBenjamin Martin:          right. Yeah. So a lot of leaders, and I don't know whether this was because we grew up under Maslow's needs or, or what it is, but we focus a lot on physical safety, right? So they're turning men and women to the firehouse from the fire scene and then getting them home. Uh, and that's how we're wired biologically. What is rumbling in the Bush? Is they're going to eat me or do I need to run away from it? Can I punch it in the face and survive? But that's not what threatens people. On a day to day basis at all. Um, if you've read anything, uh, David rock, uh, I think you and I have agreed eight days of the neuroscientist and he talks about that five times a second. The brain is scanning for threats in, uh, social domains, which are status, any press, a status, any threat to certainty, autonomy, relatedness or fairness.Benjamin Martin:          And it's a scarf model for short, but most of the time, our subconscious, and if it's extreme, our conscious, but at least our subconscious is hijacked scanning for these things. When you're asking someone to show up completely to work and tune out the fact that they're going through a divorce or that their son has an appointment with the pediatric oncologist on Monday and then say, I still need 100% of you. It's like, no, ma, you got 50%, you can have 50% of my a game today. And you're like, Oh, well, no, I told you 100% no, that's less. And so that's when you get into this idea of having empathy and you know, recognizing how someone could feel in that moment of uncertainty about their son's life or I'm certainly about their marriage and then no matter what they're doing, they're completely helpless, at least in the cancer scenario. So there's no autonomy. Nothing they do makes it any better. It's completely reactive and that kind of stuff. It's just, it's like a backpack of rocks that people are walking around with. And we joke about how heavy arts here is. People are walking around with life circumstances that are way heavier on themJeff Banman:                 way. Yeah.Benjamin Martin:          Yeah. I love this stuff. Keep, keep going. Sorry.Jeff Banman:                 Nah dude. Keep going. Keep rocking and rolling. Now this is part of the show man. We just get into conversation and we just go interrupt each other, cut each other off. Jump in. This is, this is the way this show works, so just go, don't worry about it.Benjamin Martin:          You know, I wish, I wish what I talked about with sexier so I could have pack rooms and it's just not, it's never going to be fire attack. But I've tried to train people to anticipate people's reactions the way we would fire behavior, right? And just pulling it off and giving them chances to van and safe places and not allowing themselves to get in where they shouldn't be. And really approaching it from that fire service angle. Some sets, what we know, but what we're talking about here, like there's always a go or no go with a person or go and no go yet. And whether you have that conversation with them, whether you give them this thing that could potentially crush them, this feedback, uh, whether it's a friend who's struggling with alcoholism or whether it's a, you know, buddy who's got a wife, who's cheating on him.Benjamin Martin:          Like at what point do you have this conversation and how do you have this conversation? And there's so much thought that needs to go into that rather than just having a knee jerk reaction. And that's why a lot of times you get leaders when they feel challenged because I said so. It comes out, which is the utmost dumbest thing that you could ever say. And I know we're modeled after after the military, and that's very chain of command for you, but if you're not looking for feedback, you're going to lose your people at some point or another because of what's happening in their lives. And that's how I lost George as I was completely confident in the direction I was going, and I was not willing to consider how he was doing in that moment. And I pressed on and I dragged him with me through the mud because he couldn't walk because he had no strength to, and I deserve every bit of of the Slack that I get from that time with him because I did everything right by the organization or policy, and I did everything wrong by as just a human being.Benjamin Martin:          And I really wish I could have that back. I really do.Jeff Banman:                 Well, you know, I, and I would challenge you to say it's good that you had it. Yes, I understand what you're saying. Yes, it would be great to have it back, but yes, you wouldn't be, you wouldn't have the introspection today having not had it. Like you know, you wouldn't, you wouldn't have that anchor to really understand. I mean, this is, this is where I boil down today and, and you know, most of the listening audience gets it. I mean this is, this is the deal. You, you know, either listen to the podcast or you don't, right. You either want to grow and develop yourself in your career and your home life in every aspect of your life or you don't. Right. And we've got plenty of cross fire service, military law enforcement community that are just very rigid in their beliefs, in their processes and where they sit and you know, as it should be.Jeff Banman:                 And you know, they'll figure it out one day or they won't. That's kind of where it comes down to. But what I believe fundamentally, like all of the labels we put on things, you know, leadership is not 10 things to do, right. It's not an act of doing to me is leadership is how you show up, right? It is a state of how you are being, not what you're doing in the context of leadership. And, and I've really over my time now across the fire service, a military agency doing business just across the board. Here's what I continually come back to. And this is really where I've sat. So this is how we're going to pack your next room. Uh, it is the ultimate human question and it was running all day all the time. And it is, am I safe? That is just the ultimate question.Jeff Banman:                 And like you said, you know, we're so well developed in physical safety and creating physical safety for ourselves as AR, as across the service for our community, for our country, for our people around us, like work 20, 24, seven. It's our job, keep everybody safe and we've become great at that. Where we fail. That's a physical aspect where we can fail mostly miserably is creating an emotional level of safety for everyone around us at firehouse, at home, right? With the family, with the friends like this, this place where I can say, listen, I'm not doing great. Listen, I need some help. Listen, I'm struggling at home. Or Hey, I've gone back to drinking, or Hey, I'm thinking about killing myself. Like I'm really struggling here and we don't do that. That to me is now becoming a 21st century leader across the services is being the guy or the person or the woman, whoever it is, being the person that just generates a level of emotional safety around them, that people are willing to come speak and communicate. That to me is the secret sauce today.Benjamin Martin:          Yeah, and that's your, I mean, when you're talking about trust, that's all that is. It's just emotional security that, you know what? If I tell you something for if I follow you, it won't. By late any of the things we talked about, it won't violate my sense of status. It won't violate certainty about the work. It won't violate my autonomy, you know? And that's not to say that I get to do whatever it is I want to do. It just means I don't feel like you're not battling my opinion that you've considered me or you've heard me and yet I understand you've chosen to go a different way, but at least you authentically heard me. And if you've ever worked on a committee and submitted something and then the fire chief did whatever they wanted to do, that's a complete waste of time. And there's nothing like that hurts.Benjamin Martin:          That gut punch hurts as much as tripping and falling and skinning your knee. You know, it's the same pathways in the body, social pain and physical pain. But that's when you look at leadership leadership, for me, it's like a technology, right? It's no different than the gear that we have, right? But the problem is that we're carrying around 2020 gear where we can go deeper and further and survive hotter temperatures than we ever have with advancements in technology, like thermal imaging, with all this crazy training about re COVs and whether in the Pfizer's campus, there's another conversation, but you've got all this investment in that. But the leadership theory is still stuck in like late nineties right? We, you know, we're, we're still on this servant leadership mindset. And that's being generous. That's seen like I think the best departments are in this are in the servant leadership, but the majority of the fire service, we're still a little bit stuck back in theory ex, uh, leadership where like people are inherently lazy and I'm supposed to tell them what to do and the gap that's gonna come that, that I feel like, you know, I follow the statistics for people that are killing themselves in the fire service and law enforcement.Benjamin Martin:          And I'm not an expert on those. I just know that it's going one way and I think it's going off as fast as it is one, because we've got reporting thanks to people like Jeff Hill on firefighter behavioral health and you've got people that are advancing this peer support narrative. So we're talking about it more, which obviously is gonna make you find more instances of this. But I also think at the same time, that is in response of living in a world in which you're always expected to be on with technology and social media. And you've got so much pressure socially to have a lifestyle and for your wife and your kids that's competitive with what you're seeing on Instagram. And then we text each other instead of call, we email instead of visiting them in person and our physical relationships. Your period like I mean Thanksgiving is a perfect example.Benjamin Martin:          We just celebrated that, right? And I'm guilty of this too. I texted five of my closest friends instead of calling them because I was able to do that in five minutes instead of what would have taken me five hours. But Lord, help me if I find out six months from now that one of those phone calls, I would've found out my buddy's wife was leaving him and I could have talked with him about that. And like that's the piece we're missing. And because leadership's is technology and technology always improves in response to need. It's going to be a little bit, it's going to be you and I on the fringe talking about emotional intelligence and being authentic and humble and, and demonstrating humility. And there's going to be a core group of rock stars, air quotes, rock stars, like do whatever I say do it how I do it. You know, fuck you. If you don't like what I say. It's like, no man, that's, that's, that's crap. That's absolute crap and that's the best way to run somebody into the ground and ruin an organization. And when those jackasses promote high enough where they get the right audience that's promoted high enough, then that's what tanks organizations. And you do not have to look far to find legacy fire departments with toxic cultures because of that.Jeff Banman:                 Yeah, I was the Jack. I was one of their jackasses, you know 20 [inaudible].Benjamin Martin:          Yeah, I was. I totally was.Speaker 4:                    All right, we're going to take a quick break to let you know that this episode is brought to you in part by brute force training. When you're ready to be in the physical condition necessary to meet the rigors demands and expectations of your profession and check out the team over@bruteforcetraining.com and pick up their gear. I promise you, it will put you in the condition you need to be in for this moment. And the next you can use the discount code op mindset that's open mindset in the team will take a little bit off the top for ya. Now always remember, train accordingly. Now let's get back to the show.Benjamin Martin:          I totally was too. Um, but you're at least smart enough that to learn and value the mistakes you've made and leverage those so that others don't have to make that. Whereas most people are just either embarrassed or they're too proud to look back and it, you know, like in my instance, it would be all the fault lies with George. That's not true. George has some responsibility in that I as a leader, should automatically as a default be at 51% automatically and could go higher. But to think that George has all of that flames now, now there's, there's many, many, many, many things I now know that I could have done better, which is why we go around talking about these things.Jeff Banman:                 Well, I man, I think, I think this is so I'm going to like banter with me on this one. I'm just going to idea coming to mind as we're talking. You know, it's interesting, right? Because we live in a world and I'm gonna, you know, fire service, law enforcement, military, and we have a very specific job to do. And in doing that job, we need to operate at an entire different level. Okay? And we do need to do things successfully. Like they know, compartmentalize the emotional content and separate ourselves from what's going on at home or you know, what's going on in the firehouse or you know, what's happening there. We have to, we have to understand how we kind of turn those channels down or close, you know, boxers, channels up for the time that we need to be fully present and in action, right?Jeff Banman:                 To respond an emergency, to fight a fire, to make an arrest, to do X, Y, andZ to go to war, to do whatever. Right? And all of our existence is centered around those moments. And the reality is, we all know this. If we're honest, those moments are so brief in, Oh, what is it? I don't even know what the statistics is. Like how many, how many did you spend a 25 year career in the fire service? How many years did you spend actually on a heightened emergency scene? You know what I mean? Like they're required maybe to, you know, maybe five if you're in a bust ass department, right? I mean it's not that much comparatively, but all of our world is centered around those few moments in time. Like all the training, the culture of the conversation, you know, fuck that, settle down, shut up, do your job kind of stuff.Jeff Banman:                 All settled for that one moment. And then we've left the 90% of the rest of our time to try to assimilate into those moments. Cause I mean I was awful dude. I in the firehouse, I'm mean on the fire ground. Great. No problem. And if firehouse total shit show what an asshole, you know, I mean I was a deck amongst Dick's. Like I ran the firehouse, like we were on fire 24 seven and exhausted the crap out of people. Right? And so yeah, but that's what you quote unquote do. That's how you do it. And so I think what's happening here is we're starting to chip away to be like, okay, listen, I need to, I'm going to fully, and this is where, this is why I call it an operational mindset, because it is the ability to execute the mission with absolute perfection and confidence and capability and everything you need to have in that moment in time.Jeff Banman:                 And then transition mentally, emotionally, physically from that environment to the next. And the next may be back in the firehouse. The next may be, you know, I got to give my buddy a hug or whatever it is. And I've got to have that bandwidth and that capacity to maneuver. And so guy, you know, people that are out there that are, that, that don't think this is necessary, are living in a fraction of their career, not the entirety of it or a fraction of their marriage and not the entirety of it. That's just me calling myself out along with, well, pretty much everybody else listening.Benjamin Martin:          Yeah, no, I totally, so there's a couple of things if we can play this out that I'd like to talk about. So, um, I hear a compartmentalize talk about a lot and that's definitely something that I'm not sure if we can do. So I'm sitting here, I'm looking at the computer, which is running the program that you and I are talking on and I've got all the books that I've read in the background. I've got things on the wall, family pictures on the desk. Uh, but in the moment it's what is getting my attention, right? The computer, making sure that this conversation is happening and if there's anything that I want to reference having it up on here. But if you ask me the specifics about the book covers to my left or you know, what the brand of TV was in front of me or what dress my wife was wearing in the photo.Benjamin Martin:          Like that's not important necessarily in this moment. So I'm not going to be able to tell you and it doesn't have my full attention. And that's where I think we've got to focus. Here is where you want to call. You know, you may have something going on at home, what the call is, what gets your attention. It gets 100% of your attention. Even though we know science has shown us it's subconsciously we're being distracted, but all of our conscious minds has gotta be able to focus on this. I've heard guys tell me that they don't feel like if they talk with their family during the day, very good a firefighter because all of a sudden they're distracted by the thought of their family.Jeff Banman:                 Would that be the worst thing you were saying you can do? The worst thing you can do on deployment is call home.Benjamin Martin:          Yeah, and so it's like, all right, well if that's true and your family distracts you, then don't let me see you on social media. Right? If your family is going to distract you from the mission, don't let me see you do anything in your 24 hour period that would distract you from the mission. And that includes playing on your phone, playing a video game at the station, watching TV, having a conversation that isn't about the mission, which is not life, it's, it's not reality. So what we're really admitting is that we can tune into out of the mission. It's just a lot about our ability to maintain focus and attention. And part of our problem is that we were manta sized. We way over romanticized leadership because of what we see in culture and movies. Like we're like you talked about, you're like, you're waiting for this one moment where you're like Braveheart and you're Mel Gibson and you're giving this speech and you're like, John, like I got juice.Benjamin Martin:          And the reality is you may you, you may get that, but probably more so where the goosebumps are going to come from is when you're able to have that one on one conversation in the parking lot of the food line. You went to get groceries where a guy breaks down on you and you have a safe place for him to land or whatever else it is that was occupying his attention. Like that's reaching a person. The other thing is just talking to them. Maybe they get the same feeling you get, but it's just like you and me. And they're like, we push them harder. We push them fast and like you're like, yeah. And they're like, no, no. [inaudible] but you're so focused, you know, just like on the computer, not paying attention to the color of the books. You have no idea that people have completely checked out around you and they're not, they're not buying into it at all.Benjamin Martin:          So like, yeah, there's gotta be a healthy way to process what you're saying cause that's obviously important. Um, and we want to get away from where we're compartmentalizing too much. But at the same time it's like, all right, well, I want to do everything I can to be, to get home to my kids. And I tell people that training is the answer to that, right? When I don't have to think about how to do fundamental skills, that leaves up more brain power to think creatively and figure out solutions to problems that will arise. You can't plan for everything. So that's the goal. Train the shit out of people so that they can focus on the right thing when they call comes in and then when they get back to the firehouse they can make the switch back to maybe they want to tuck their daughter in over family time or a FaceTime or call the wife and see how her day was or something.Benjamin Martin:          But I really failed like where I would go 24 hours, not talking to them and life just kept going on here. But the first steps I missed the first steps, the first words, Christmases, birthdays like. So it's like, all right, well I can make a decision to consciously not be a part of any of that if I'm at the firehouse or I can try to find a period where I can blend where I'm able to focus and not get distracted by them. And I think, Jeff, probably what I'm trying to say here is if you, if you can do this correctly, then your family life will be healthy and you will be in a healthier place and you'll be more emotionally stable and your leadership or even your followership will be more efficient and more effective. And then because it's all in balance, which really you probably won't ever happen because it's more imbalanced, you're not going to have all of the distractions you would with a divorce or with counseling or with a sick kid. And with any of those things. Um, it's just like span of control.Jeff Banman:                 Well, we, it is like span of control and we forget that we live, especially in these environments. Like most, most normal people, those people out there, right? They get up in the morning, they go to work, they sit at their desks, they do whatever they come home. And I'm not saying they're not without challenge and now without issue, but heightened in our worlds is this understanding that we need to be transitional beings like transitional, like, and, and transitions are we, you know, we've, we book end our day, we get in the car, we go to work, we getting in the car, we go home, right? We've, we book in our shift or whatever it is, we book ended. But in the context of every day, we are constantly transitioning moment by moment, by moment I'm at the firehouse. I want a new mass call. I'm helping him old lady get back in her bed.Jeff Banman:                 I'm, you know, pulling a kid out of a burning building. I'm cutting somebody out of a car who may or may not make it. I'm, you know, chasing somebody down the street. And then I'm counseling the domestic dispute and I'm, you know, helping the rape victim. Like, dude, that's, and by the way, that's Justin today, right? And, and yeah, exactly. And so, you know, what? We lose to me, what I think we lose sight of, and this is where things start to mound for us. We don't execute transitions well that's, you know, when we talk about emotional stability in the six pillars and, and mental acuity and emotional stability is the ability to transition rapidly. Right? To be able to say, okay cool. Done was a call. I what do I need to transition? Well I need to go for a walk around the block or I need to, you know, grab Ben and take him outside and scream cause I'm pissed off at whatever and then I can go home.Jeff Banman:                 Right. And so what I'm able to do, and when I talk about compartmentalization, it is more a transitional segmentation. Things not like isolation, not shutting people down or locking things out. Yeah. Yeah. Cause if I'm going to call home, if I'm overseas and I'm calling home, I don't want to dumb what I just did into my family. So I set myself up, I feel like it, what I need for the next moment and I put myself in DOE in the condition I need to be in for that moment. Not, you know, cause my family doesn't need firemen or you know, cop or military per, do I need any of that? They just need lesbian dad. Right? So what, what condition do I need and what do I need right now? Like just simply asking yourself that question, what do I need right now to call home to be the best dad, her husband or whatever, or mother or wife or whatever it may be. What do I need and what do I need to help me be that? Uh, yeah, yeah. I mean, I, dude, I think,Benjamin Martin:          I think the difference, cause I've never served in the military, so I don't, my father was in the air force, so I have no authority to speak on this at all. So I'll, I'll very softly lay this up there. And then anybody's willing to slap it away. They can and they won't hurt my feelings. But when you're looking at the sacrifice of the men and women make that serve our country, where they go away for six months to a year to a year and a half. Like I could understand Jeff calling home, finding out his wife's cheating on him and then having another year on his stent and thinking about how distracted he would be with that. So we borrow from that with the fire service problem is I'm only gone for 24 hours or 48 hours or worst case scenario, I get forced hot over times and it's 72 hours but then I'm right back in their life.Benjamin Martin:          And so I think when you look at military service members coming home, and Jeff, you can speak to this like we're going to have the most problem. And I think it's transitioning back into the people's lives because it never stops happening while they were gone. And that's what it was from my mother, you know, with my father. And you know, I was too young to remember any of that. So thankfully that wasn't an issue. But I think, I think for the fire service, like the idea of compartmentalizing. And here's a story, if we have a moment, I'll, I'll, I'll tell you when I was a new, when I was a new Lieutenant, right, I had all the status pressure, like really wanting to come across as a, you know, a subject matter expert on everything. I'm also a paramedic, don't judge me for that. So I've got two hats to wear, you know, I've gotta be good at on the fireside, but also good on the paramedics and sob.Benjamin Martin:          And I'd been there maybe three months, still building relationships with everybody. Still hadn't caught a fire so nobody knows if I'm any good or bad anything. And we catch a pediatric shooting and I can remember driving and I didn't know the district that well. So I've got all this pressure about like I hope I'm going the right way. And the whole time I'm like, you know, looking at a four year old shot by his older brother or younger brother and it's like, ah crap, crap, crap, crap, crap. Like, just this gut wrenching feeling of like, shit, shit, shit, shit. Like, you know the big calls that can create that out. And I get there and I'm running up to the house and a police officer comes out and he's holding the kid in a, in a blanket and he goes, it's just a graze. And it's like, Ooh, right.Benjamin Martin:          Subject matter expert. He's telling me it's just the grace. Thank God DEFCON level five back down the level one, like we're good, can't cancel the air strike. We're good. So I started getting into patient assessment of it. The mom is a mess, right? She had had people breaking in to the house or a neighborhood houses. So she got a firearm out, tuck it under a sofa question, I think. And the youngest son found it who was like two or three and accidentally fired upon his, um, brother, who I think was four or five at the time. So, um, I mean you can imagine just like in the back of her mind, subconsciously, am I going to lose these kids? But at the forefront of her mind, is my child going to live? Right? So when the police officer says it's just a graze, everybody can collectively breathe a sigh.Benjamin Martin:          And I go in there and I recognize, I look over the kid, I peel the blanket back. If he's in a diaper and there's nothing, you know, there's nothing wrong that I can see. I look and it looks like a grave, like an almost like an abrasion. I'm like, are you sure he was even shot. Maybe this is a bug burn, whatever. And it's, it is, um, it's going in is like five, right? Or I guess what looks like wound to his inner thigh. So after like I took a, Paul says, profusions good kid, not even crying like, alright, is a healthy kid, let's go and ride on the hospital just to be on the safe side. Get you outta here. So I put mom on the back. I'm not even going lights and sirens to the hospital. And I look at her and she's just a wreck.Benjamin Martin:          And I think to myself, if this was my child and is my oldest, so ALA was like one at a time. If this was a loss, nothing could stop me from holding this child. And I'm like, I'm not going to be in the way of that man. Would you like to hold your stone? Yes, I would. Right. So I give her the sun, she sits on the stretcher with the son, we go to the uh, trauma hospital and we get over to pediatrics and I'm talking to the attending and then the freaking department head walks in and I'm telling her about what's going on. It's just a graze. And then I hear, well, what's this then? And like I hadn't even looked over there yet, but I could feel myself getting nauseous just knowing what was coming. And I look over, they had taken the diaper off and it's like, I know your listeners have already figured out the end of the story.Benjamin Martin:          They already knew this was coming, but I, I couldn't, I didn't, I left the type or on, I exposed everything else. Like it was a lower leg injury. There's no way that this child could shoot up this kid's leg and have an exit his button. But that's exactly what he did. And then all sudden details start coming back where the mom was like, be sure is filling up his diaper. He's seeing a lot. And I'm like, well shit, that was blood. Like it wasn't a lot of blood. It was just oozing blood. Thank God. But what if it had been so they did an X Ray and the kid who was an in and out, um, and I told, I told the department head, I was like, listen, I, I fucked up so bad here. I'm going to call the OMB. I'm going to own this.Benjamin Martin:          I'm going to use this as a lesson. You do whatever it is you need to do carte blanche and you're not going to get any resistance from me. No embracing the resistance on this one. Like, just do what you need to do. And she's like, well, I can see it in your face. You feel terrible and I trust that you'll follow up on this and I will, I will talk with your own team to make sure you have, and she's like, you'd go do what you need to do and we'll see where it falls out. So I came back to the station and I talked to the guys and they're like, Oh, we should have prompted you. And I'm like, well listen, like if I'm going to be successful here as a leader, I don't ever want you guys to feel afraid that you can't challenge Lieutenant.Benjamin Martin:          Like there's going to be critical moments. And I don't even think that this was a critical life threatening moment because it wasn't a flashover. It was a life threatening, but it had time to play out. I want you to challenge me. Please don't ever let this happen again. But I'm owning this like I don't hold any of you guys accountable. This is 100% Lieutenant Martins. Fuck off. And I'll own this. But just so you're aware, don't let this happen to you guys. Let's work together to have each other's back and let's not be so caught up in our egos that we're afraid to say something because we don't want to hurt anybody's feelings or that we're going to be resistant to it because we've got to maintain the ego. And so I got home and I was telling my wife about it and you know, she's Sam there in tears and I started doing some research in a corner costs role ambiguity, which you know, basically is you wear a lot of hats.Benjamin Martin:          So it wasn't just that I was wearing a hat of a firefighter or hat of an officer or hat of her medic. I was wearing a hat as a father, as a husband, you know, as a brother, like all these different roles in my life. And in that moment when I should've had the paramedic hat on, I took it off on it, put the father hat on and I thought about her needs more and I failed her child and her in the process. And what happens is when we put our, we allow ourselves to get in situations where we haven't had training and we haven't had at least a discussion on it, we get into role conflict where doing one role conflicts with the outcome of another role. And a lot of times you see this in buddy to pause where it's like, well, I want to be the guy's buddy, but it gotta be his boss.Benjamin Martin:          And you're not either you're just marginal at that. You think you're maybe winning because the guy's not actively shit talking to you. Maybe he has your back, but just because he's not, you know, confrontational to your face, you're like, yes, I'm winning as a leader. But that's not the case. And that's exactly like what we're talking about with this. What's getting your attention? You can say you can compartmentalize things that and leave it at home, but clearly you can't. That's not a, and it's not a bad thing. That's part of being human. That's part of our humanity. Like empathy is a core construct of our humanity and the more we express that, the better. And that I would argue, Jeff, that is why we would go into that fire because we want to that kid with their parents to give them a birthday, to give them an anniversary, like to see them get married one day.Benjamin Martin:          Like we'll take significant risks that are counter to our best interest because of our empathy. Our empathy is not, it doesn't not handicap us, it does not distract us. It empowers us as long as we're valuing the right thing. And it's pretty obvious when somebody is demonstrating powers and not doing the right things. But that's what type of leader I want to work for. That that has the ability to come in and in one minute basis silly, bad-ass, but the next minute be completely humble over a mistake they made or sharing the mistake they made with me 10 years ago to establish level footing with me because I want to feel related to them because that's another fundamental construct of safety is relatedness. That's the next level stuff. And that's the stuff that's not being taught. I'm not reason why we're going to have this gap and this, but you know, and every gap you get people like me and you that are like, we're not, there's a need.Benjamin Martin:          There's a technology that's not out there. So I'm going to, we're going to speak to it and literally build this, I don't want to say from scratch because we were studying research that's been done some, you know, sometimes the thirties but in the fire service it's all new and novel and you all, you, anybody listening here knows if it's new and novel in the fire service, it's the first to get, you know, an arrow swung at it. So like that's the hits were taken because we believe so passionately in it and like I've seen it, I've seen it affect my marriage and make it better. I've seen it at work and make my relationships better with people. And the reputation I have now is, so it's like one 80 from what I had seven years ago and it's all been about humility and learning and shared experiences. That's the only recipe that I've had any kind of success with. It's not ever been one class I took, well one moment I had. It's just a consistent showing up for people. And that's really what I think a leader needs to do.Jeff Banman:                 Dude, I, I can't disagree with any of that. I mean, I think that's exactly, we are human and as humans we are emotional beings. You know what I mean? We feel, we sense, we connect, uh, aid is just part of our lives and we can't shove it down. We can't turn it off. It's not going to go away. I level when people are like, well I don't really have any empathy or I was born without empathy. I'm like, yeah, I know you aren't. Uh, you know, cause I've had those kind of, I've had people say that, you know what, I've had people say that about their partners or other people in the, in the, you know, in their work environment. Like they just, I, they don't have any empathy. They do, they don't know how to unlock it. And there's probably a huge wall of fear there around it.Jeff Banman:                 So, yeah, man. I mean I think it's a, I think it's indicative on, on us as one, it's indicative on the leader today to step into this role period. You know, if you are, if you are in any of the services, uh, any, you know, if you, to people I hang out with across the platforms, the special operations guys, intelligence guys, the fire service guys, law enforcement across the board. Anybody who's been in a career for any length of time and has a sense of themselves, understands the value of this conversation of constantly looking at themselves, constantly develop things, you know, willingness to understand their people around them, you know, and really, and take action around it. Right? It's not just, Oh, cool, there's was a great podcast or, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. What now are you doing with it? What are you, what steps are you taking?Jeff Banman:                 You know, if you are a leader in the firehouse or you're, you know, a Sergeant in the law enforcement community or the Lieutenant or a captain or a chief, I don't know. You know what I mean? I've got chief officers that listen to this. It's like, how are you creating the environment for your people to really get all of this like through, through and through. And you know, that's not just, you know, let me go see Benjamin talk at firehouse expo. You know, it's like, how do I engage, how do I bring this conversation forward? I mean, I think that's, you know, you touched on the aspects of suicide in the rise around that stuff cause they ours. I mean, those are, that's why I created the operation mindset foundation because I'm a big believer, there's a big difference between prevention and intervention and 90% of what's done is intervention because the thought train has already started.Jeff Banman:                 And I know I speak openly about years, even prior to the services, this constant conversation of I shouldn't be here. You know, maybe I should just go now. Um, and my own challenges then, you know, enhanced by the stupid life I chose to live. Uh, you know, it's crazy what's out there and you know, we've gotta be more real about it. We've got to be more in tune with it. We've got to be available, the people around us, because that, you know, that person sitting with you at the dinner table in the firehouse, like you said, needs every ounce of the same person that will run in and snatch that kid out of that burning building like 100%. And if you can't be in, especially, you know, I don't care, I don't care what your rank is or whether you showed up yesterday or whether you've been here for 20 years and you're a grouch.Jeff Banman:                 That's the condition you have to live in now. Uh, because it's across the board, man, the game changed, like firing and getting shot at, it's a little bit more hay day. There's a lot more judgment from across the board. It's not just centered into law enforcement community, you know, or it's not just military stuff or whatever. I'll say it's across the board. Like you've gotta be ready for anything and everything and you're only gonna do that when the team is a whole, you know, is completely whole and able to perform in moment. So dude, I love it. We're going to have to schedule another time. And you know, have a whole nother conversation. Uh, anytime, anytime. I love talking toBenjamin Martin:          Jeff. I think you're doing great work and it's humbled to be a small part of it.Jeff Banman:                 Well that's it dude. And we're gonna we're going to work together a little bit more in 2020, uh, through the operation Whiteside foundation and really developing and preparing guys, you know, people to step into harm's way and delivering the conversation early. Cause I think this needs to start like day one. This is the conversation. Yeah. This, this needs to be, I'll say this if you think you are an influencer in any of the services, you know, I, I feel like I served a little bit of that in my time in a couple of places. Like I was somebody people trusted or they listened to or they came to and talk to. If you're in that role, this is the conversation that needs to be had like this, you know, and I, and I was lucky I had some old school, gritty, gritty, gritty guys growing up that actually had these kinds of conversations with me.Jeff Banman:                 You know, may not have been this formal, may not have been in these particular words. You know, cause now we're talking almost started years ago, but they had conversations like this with me and that's what I love about these programs cause all that's still embedded in, in a lot of this, this old school, you know, old school hard ass mentality is to me I think is actually a big falsehood. And maybe that's what you and I'll attack on the next time we get on. It's like this, this perception of what I should be versus you know, you talked to the Al Dutton retired battalion fire chief from DC fire department who we know went to deep, went to work for DC the year I was born. You know, telling me how this stuff is radically important to success. Right? Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, we'll have to unpack that. All right man. So I'm going to make sure all the show notes are up. You and I are going to collaborate a little bit to recreate some of the conversation for everybody out there and get some key topics and some key learning points. So they've got them up there in the show notes. I'm going to make sure Benjamin's wonderful bio is up also in the show notes and a link to him at embrace the resistance but soon by checkout, embrace the resistance.com. Are you speaking anywhere? Anytime soon? You got anything coming up?Benjamin Martin:          So then uh, I got uh, I got a small gig in Indiana for a department and then I'll be at the big show in SEIC April. So hopefully it will, we'll see each other there.Jeff Banman:                 Yeah, absolutely. So if you're going to FDIC, make sure you check out and Benjamin and get into his class cause it's, it is 100% worth it. I had a chance to sit in at, he spoke right before we prep the audience for them. We prep

Emily Miazga is a 3 x winner of the  Coast to Coast World multisport champion she is also a clinical nutritionist and found of "Em's Power Cookies" - a range of nutritious and delicious  Cookies, Bars, Power Bites, they also sell Hemp Protein Cookies! In this episode Canadian born Emily shares how she got into multisport and just what it took to win the coveted Coast to Coast race three times and what she learnt about herself along the way. How she used her insights as an athlete to help power her business dreams and what life after competitive sport looks like. She shares her philosphies on pushing through sporting and life obstacles and how she managed to keep her mind on track during the toughest of her races.   We would like to thank our sponsors Running Hot - By Lisa Tamati & Neil Wagstaff If you want to run faster, longer and be stronger without burnout and injuries then check out and TRY our Running Club for FREE on a 7 day FREE TRIAL Complete holistic running programmes for distances from 5km to ultramarathon and for beginners to advanced runners.   All include Run training sessions, mobility workouts daily, strength workouts specific for runners, nutrition guidance and mindset help Plus injury prevention series, foundational plans, running drill series and a huge library of videos, articles, podcasts, clean eating recipes and more.   www.runninghotcoaching.com/info and don't forget to subscribe to our youtube channel at Lisa's Youtube channel  www.yotube.com/user/lisatamat and come visit us on our facebook group   www.facebook.com/groups/lisatamati Epigenetics Testing Program by Lisa Tamati & Neil Wagstaff. Wouldn’t it be great if your body came with a user manual? Which foods should you eat, and which ones should you avoid? When, and how often should you be eating? What type of exercise does your body respond best to, and when is it best to exercise? These are just some of the questions you’ll uncover the answers to in the Epigenetics Testing Program along with many others. There’s a good reason why epigenetics is being hailed as the “future of personalised health”, as it unlocks the user manual you’ll wish you’d been born with! No more guess work. The program, developed by an international team of independent doctors, researchers, and technology programmers for over 15 years, uses a powerful epigenetics analysis platform informed by 100% evidenced-based medical research. The platform uses over 500 algorithms and 10,000 data points per user, to analyse body measurement and lifestyle stress data, that can all be captured from the comfort of your own home Find out more about our  Epigenetics Program and how it can change your life and help you reach optimal health, happiness and potential at: https://runninghotcoaching.com/epigenetics You can find all our programs, courses, live seminars and more at www.lisatamati.com    Transcript of interview  Speaker 1: (00:01) Welcome to pushing the limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host, Lisa Tamati brought to you by www.lisatamati.com Speaker 2: (00:13) Well, hi everyone. Lisa Tamati here at pushing the limits is fantastic to have you all back again. I'm super excited to have you. And today we have a very special guests. I have Emily Miazga and if you don't know who Emily is, you probably know who famous cookies, which are IMS power cockies. So I'm sure a lot of you are going, Oh yes, I know in South of his well him is now two based on pushing the limits. Welcome to the show, Emily, how are you? Speaker 3: (00:39) Hi Lisa. I'm really good. Thanks for having me on. It's, it's a real pleasure. Speaker 2: (00:43) Well that's, it's super exciting to have you on. We actually had a case sorry, a fan of the show, write to me and say, can you please have Emily on? And she's so evoke and I want to hear her talk. So I reached out to Emily and who we are today. Speaker 3: (01:00) Awesome. Thankfully I'm too for that. It's very cool. And we finally got gotten here, so now it's very, very cool. I love it when a good plan comes together. Speaker 2: (01:08) Took us about three months, but we did get there. Speaker 3: (01:11) Absolutely. Speaker 2: (01:13) Now Emily is a Canadian born but she's living in New Zealand and Emily is famous for her Em's cookie. So let's go there for a stylist. Before we get into your athletic career, you've been an amazing athlete, but you have cookies. What are the, what are these about? Speaker 3: (01:30) Oh my cookies. I should've had one here with me. I'll have to run, get some kitchen. But my, my power cookies, it's quite funny. I had been making them since I was a little kid growing up in Canada because in Canada we just love, you know, it's like cookies are really the thing to do. And I was a sporty kid, I was always running and I was always into nutrition as well. Like I ended up studying dietetics and became a dietician. But when I came to New Zealand I was, I was traveling and I ended up here for coast to coast. And I, what I do, this is just kind of how I roll. As I would stay at friends houses and I'd make them buy power cookies as it, as a thank you or give them to the guys at the bike shop, the bribing them, you know what I mean? Speaker 3: (02:12) Like it always works a treat. And in the faculty I lied. I had always wanted to start my own business and I didn't, I decided I wanted to stay in New Zealand. I didn't want to go back to work in a clinical dietetics setting. So I actually brought power cookies to Robin Jenkins, the director, the creator of the coast to coast and wow. Yeah. So after my first coast to coast in 2004, I went and saw Johnny and I brought him cookies and I'm like, Hey, I'm thinking of starting a business and selling these cookies because you know, everyone like always said they're so good and I should sell them. So, so I, I basically just started the business and it's, it's a nice, I always loved giving them to people and to share them with people. And so that was like a real behind wanting to do it. Plus of course, you know, having my own business and doing my own thing because the products, they just, they really, they just really work. And so what, what the actual power cookies are, is they're just made from ingredients that, you know, you'd probably find in most pantries, you know, typical bloody fine ringing in the background. Oh, I probably should. I should probably put mine on airplane mode while while we're here. Just ignore it, carry off. Speaker 3: (03:32) But they just have like, like rolled oats as the base ingredients drive through. It's real dark chocolate bit of Brown sugar a and rice syrup, peanut butter in a peanut chocolate farm. But just naturally, I think the reason why they work so well is because they're yummy. They taste really good and they're really and digest and they just don't, especially when you're racing or doing something hard, they just don't upset yourself. And I think it's because like, I don't use component chocolates. I don't use processed oils. There's no Palm oil. I don't add all these protein powders, like soy protein isolate. And you know, whey protein it of ISO. So, you know, go into that a little bit. So I saw it like, no, we all read that on the packet means not much to math. Why is they the bad thing? I just don't think, and this is just my sort of anecdotal feeling I guess. Speaker 3: (04:29) I, you know, it's, it's not, you know, a real like dietetic thing, but I just think your, your body when it's under the pump it up just can't digest those types of foods. They're not real foods cause that processed in a way that it's, yeah, it's processed and it's concentrated. It's kind of like when people try to race and they just try to only consume gel. Oh terrible. Yeah. I know like gels have their place. Like if you're, if you, if you need them in an emergency or like for example, in the coast to coast mountain run, I use gels because they're convenient. They work for that specific purpose. But to fuel a whole iron man or a whole ultra or whatever on just gels, you're just going to end up with majors. Yeah. Because it's just really hard on your gut to digest it. Speaker 3: (05:17) So that's where having real food I think works works a lot better. And so that's the main difference between my products and your sort of commercially available nutrition bars. Like they'll look good on paper nutritionally. But for me, I guess I'm a dietician and as a foodie, sure it's got to look good on paper, but it also has to taste good. It also has to be digestible and it has to give, it has to fulfill the intended purpose. And so with M's, the intended purpose is to give them a really nice sustained energy. And this is really, really important because yeah, a lot of things look good on paper or they don't, you know, have this or that. I mean, I've had some really bad experiences gels and in Speaker 2: (05:58) A lot of our athletes that running hot have, have come unstuck with gels and the in I, yeah, stay away from the completely, or if you're running something like a teenK or even a half marathon, you can get away with it. But if I was that we as soon as your guys' use of track is going to be struggling because all the blood is out of the muscles, I'm going to go for a little bit longer that just not, but yeah, there was some new ones on the market that I haven't tasted and that, that are meeting the new formulations and so on. But even, even ones that are fruit based, I find that they go very acidic and your tummy and served, at least for my stomach,uduring,uduring your vendors is a no go. So food is something that I'm quite passionate about getting white athletes to adopt to and in food. It tastes good. So really good too. We will have to talk a little bit about getting some Eames cookies for our athletes to Speaker 3: (06:56) Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That. That's right. You know, one of the types of gels that I used to use it was just actually the corn syrup. Yeah. But it, but it was better than the glucose. And the maltodextrin ones, like a lot of them have that multi Jack strain, which is just like eating, trying to consume paint, paint stripper. And it's just like, Oh my God. They, like I said, y'all do have their place, but you can [inaudible] their playground, Speaker 2: (07:25) Not on the rise and the bloody fight. I don't know who it is. It's trying to get me, but Speaker 3: (07:30) Somebody you can answer it and put them on the podcast. Speaker 2: (07:38) Yeah, it's it's my business partner. Neil's, not everybody does blame Neil for bringing me in. Speaker 3: (07:44) Yeah. Speaker 2: (07:48) And it happens every week. So those things, but I think my lessons sort of get it that we've got life going on. So now I want to change tech, then I want to talk a little bit about your sporting career. We've touched on the fact that you did coast to coast now. You didn't just do coast to coast. Take, take show your, your, your history with the coast to coast and your amazing records. Speaker 3: (08:12) Oh, thanks. How long did we have? Talk about coast to coast all day. It's a very, very dear race to me. It's what really connected me in New Zealand, you know, the mountains and just how inspirational the courses. It's amazing. So I would, I was traveling and I was doing some adventurous thing. I was living in Australia and training with a guy named by Andrews. He was served by Ironman lifesaving champion of Australia. And he won that a few times and I met him while I was traveling and racing and, and he's just like, you're all right. You're a good cheek. And I'm like, yeah. So I was living in Ozzie and spent about six months training with guy and he really helped me with my kayaking because I hadn't kayaked before. Yup. But that was all ocean paddling. And anyway, I thought, well after my stint there, I've, the plan was to come to New Zealand to race the coast to coast cause it was, you know, like I guess on the bucket list and I thought, well do the coast to coast and then I'll go back to Canada and you know, settle down and get a life and go back to work as a dietician. Speaker 3: (09:20) Well that's, you know, I came in, never left. So, so the first year I came, it was in, when I raised, it was 2004 and that year it flooded out and shoot thirds of the field never finished. They were getting the mountain, it was carnage man. Like it was. And, and I had only been through the run on like I'd gone through the run a couple of times on five days and I hadn't experienced that New Zealand rain around mountains, rivers coming up. I had no concept. I grew up in the prairies in Saskatchewan, like where kind of stuff just doesn't happen. And so I remember going up through goat pass and it was just like, it's Torrens of water coming down. And we're collaborating while we're, you know, using the trees to get up and like skirting these like waterfalls. It was in the Harley and I was like, Holy shit. Speaker 3: (10:09) Like this is, I knew it was pretty, pretty intense. And so I've got through goat pass and there was a Marshall, they're asking us how we were doing and I was definitely probably hypothermic probably, you know, probably wasn't so good for me to carry on, but I actually felt okay. And I said I'm a little cold but I'm okay. And I just kept my head down and I kept running. Didn't stop cause I knew if I stopped they would, that'd be it. And I got through the mountain run and got onto the river and I'm like, you know, and everyone, like it was just like one of my friends from Australia, Chris Clawson, he was like walking back up the Hill to Mount light when I was running down to the river. And I'm like, what the hell is going on? Like I didn't realize the corners that was unfolding both in front of me and behind me. Speaker 3: (10:59) Wow. My crew, like the, the marshals were, we're checking people at the [inaudible] transition and if we are hypothermic, they were pulling you off and not letting you get on the water. If I was able to sneak through and my crew like put me in the boat and they're like, Oh, you'll be fine. And off I went. And anyway I made it through and I finished. And like I remember we, I remember reading some Chaffey Lynch's stuff about the coast to coast will make you grovel and Cathy Lynch, for those of you who don't know Kathy Lynn, she's probably one of the toughest athletes. We'll stop, you know, on the planet. She's amazing. I've never met Kathy, but she's one of my inspirations. Yeah. And I just remember her like on that final ride about groveling and as I have like on the final ride, cause I was completely, and when I got to the finish line I just said there is no need to ever do that again. Speaker 3: (12:01) And then two days later with my buddy Lynn, and I was like, you know, my keys, my chronic sponsor, and he's been with me from the start helping me. I love Lenny and I'm, you know, you can start conspiring again for the next, the next year. And, and at the time I was being coached by Michael jacks and Wellington and he emailed me and said, Hey, I reckon you can win this race. And so he coached me through and, and we got there in 2005. I actually had a pretty good race in 2005 I came third again. But I was recovering from knee surgery and I was still getting used to the course. And then 2006 was a major step up for me because I upgraded my class and actually learn how to really handle that river. And I really started to master that river. And I also, I think I had a shift as well in I guess my mental approach. Speaker 3: (12:57) Yep. When I first started it was about, you know, I'm going to come smash the coast to coast. And it was very ego driven. And like I was out to prove something and then it started to transition into more introspection, learning. What was it that was driving me? Why was I wanting to do this and feeling more gratitude and most driving you do you think? No, when you look back? I think, well in the beginning it was, I, it went hand in hand with the cookie business and I needed to be successful in the race because I wanted, I was literally using my racing as a testimony, as a Testament to my power cookies. Yeah, true. And so that was a big driver. I wanted to actually show people how it could, how it could be a big driver was just the, the sheer beauty of the course in New Zealand and being in the mountains. Speaker 3: (13:57) And I think, you know, I've always been a competitive person, so of course that comes through. But, but it was, but it was beyond that. It was a Oh, understanding. Like why, you know, why was I going on this earth? Why was I here? You know, what is it that, that, that I can do? And, and when I would, when I would do well it would, it would inspire other people. And you've probably have this as well and that actually feeds back on to you and, and it really, I was really in tune to that and really receptive and, and you know, like I'm all that kind of stuff that the philosophical stuff and you know, sort of this mind, body, spiritual thing, you know, it's all up to individuals as to how they interpret or assess it. And you know, it might be real, it might be not, but what's, what is real is what's in your head. Speaker 3: (14:47) And I, I was listening and I, it kind of become a part of me and I let it become part of my story and part of my motivation. Wow. So now we're at where we were in two thousand sixty thousand students. So have some flaws you've done and you want it now, how many times is that entitled? I want it. I want it three times. So yes. So 2007 I had a foot injury, I had plantar fasciitis and I tried pushing through and it just didn't work. Like on race day, I always say like with longest day coast-to-coast, if you try to hide an injury or if you have a problem, the race pulls it out of you. And it pulled it out of me. I go past and I was like, Ooh, I just can't do this. And so I pulled that other ACE, which was really sad, but I I it was too much. Speaker 3: (15:40) And it's pretty penis. I mean that's racing when you're pushing the limits, things are gonna go sometimes pear shaped and there was, and if it was easy everyone would be doing it, you know. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So that year Fluor pausey wanted and she sort of popped up and surprise people with her when I pulled out Elena, Asha, one of the other top girls, she didn't have very good race. And so people were sort of speculating and saying, Oh, you know, who's this blur? And, you know, kind of talking about her when, and like it wasn't a, a worthy winner because girls kind of dropped out, but which is just stupid. Like she had an absolutely brilliant race, but like the longest day is about who manages themselves the best. And that day Fleur was amazing. And so the next year in 2008 with a pretty exciting year and I was really working on my mental game and that year I learned a lot. Speaker 3: (16:34) So I, I ended up beating for buying 44 seconds that year. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. So she was leaving, coming off the water. I had a bad paddle light at that point. I still, I wasn't eating on the water, I was just using sports, drinking Coke and the river was really low and it was taking longer than I thought. And so my nutrition fell a bit short and I had to pull over and I had an emergency gel, so I had a gel in the backup. I normally don't use gels only on the round bit. So I came off the water's seven minutes behind Fleur and we still have the 70 chain time trial to Christchurch and that's a lot to make up. But one thing that I was really good at with my racing, I sort of took a feather of some Steve Grundy's hat and I mastered that final ride. Speaker 3: (17:21) Yep. Most people hated it. I loved it. I knew every inch of that ride and I knew that I could probably ride 10 minutes quicker than any other woman. So I like I was, and I was very good at my energy management and I think, I think that's why it was good at posting coast is not because I was the best runner or the best paddler or whatever cyclist. I think it's because I was really good at managing my energy and I think that the power cookies had a lot to do with it because it push me to do so. I I had to chase her. Oh, what's up? Speaker 2: (17:54) Yeah. I think that's actually one of the things that I was good at too. I wasn't fast. It wasn't anything bad. W over the really long was sort of races. Yeah. How do you manage your body and your energy levels. And I did have difficulty with dodgiest of things, but I managed to even still be moving, you know, I mean I have all that wall that you're out here. Speaker 3: (18:17) Yeah. You know, my, my coach that year I changed to John Newsome in pressure. She's a triathlon coach. And one of the things that he said to me, which really stuck was when you're in these races, it's, you're always gonna have those low points, but it's all about when you have those low points to really minimize the losses. So I was always open and it's like, well, if I'm having a shitty time right now, chances are my competitors are as well. And so I am going gonna acknowledge it, I'm going to accept it, I'm not going to fight it, but I'm going to deal with it and I'm going to get on. Because before, you know, you'll probably have that next part of your human race where, Oh, all of a sudden I actually feel quite good. And and so it's just a little moment in time and it passes. And so you just have to accept it that those low spots are going to happen and you just got to minimize those losses. So that was really good advice. Speaker 2: (19:09) It's a good quote that it's one of my favorite quotes in the world that says this too will pass. Yes. Keep it in your head when you're in the deep dark prices and rice, it will pass as well. And sometimes, and this is I think for new athletes who haven't experienced this before, they think it's all over. Yeah. They think there's no, there's no coming back from this. I'm feeling so bad. There is no way out. I'm so glad. So I've lost so much energy on vomiting or whatever that they, I bet very 99 times out of a hundred deer is a white bag and they will pass. And if you can give your body maybe just a few minutes break or slowing down a little bit or walking for a bit and then hello, you come back and you [inaudible]. Speaker 3: (19:51) Exactly. Exactly. It's so true. And I think what, what does help with having a bit of experience w well, well you can practice this without racing, but you have to work on like, it's really easy to sit and talk about it out, you know in a, in your living room. But it's another thing to actually put it into practice. And so that's where, when the heat is on and you're in, in that moment, having the wherewithal to kind of look at yourself objectively and know yourself out of it. And that was, I used to joke about doing that. I used to joke about, Oh, I'm brainwashing myself and we would kind of laugh because it's kind of true. I literally was like, that's how I thought of it. I was like brainwashing myself and you know, being able to master your mind. And so, so when I was chasing floor on that final gride and I remember my coach, we, they put me on the bike and he's just like, right to settle in when you're ready, John, put in the big gear and do what you know you can do. Speaker 3: (20:51) And he's like, whatever you do, just never give up. And so on that ride was my first real experience because I'm chasing and I'm, you know, seven minutes isn't a lot of time to make up two hour ride. And I was like, well, okay, am I going to catch her? What's the split? You know? And I was going through all these scenarios and I was thinking, and I was worrying about like, I don't want her to win because that's, you know, I, this is my race and I wanna win this race. And then, you know, and I was thinking beyond into the future and then I was worrying about, you know, stuff that had happened in the past. And as I was observing in myself, as I was thinking futuristically or in the past, my energy would literally drain from my legs. Wow. But when I stopped, when I re, I realized that that was going on. Speaker 3: (21:39) Cause my, I was working with Renzi Hannon, who's is spent in eighth grade. And he, I remember him saying like, when you're thinking futuristically or in the past, you, you literally lose your energy when you're in the presence. And you and I, I gave, I realized that I was like, right, I gave myself permission. Yup. Let her go. Don't worry about her. Don't worry about whether or not I'm gonna win or catch her. Just like dropped my elbows, relaxed my back, click it up a couple more gears, pull off with my heels, take a sip of my Coke and I just focused on writing as fast as I could. And and you know, I still got the split, like the radio guys were going back and forth and giving us splits and you take it on, but you take it on as useful information, you assess it, you take it and then you move on. Speaker 3: (22:27) You don't hang on to it. And so once you get to that point where you're completely in your zone and it's not a magical enigma, you can create it and you can make it happen. And once you're in that zone, you literally feel like super woman. It was, it was an amazing thing. And when I started reeling her in and when I knew I was going to catch her and, and, and this is where this energy thing really came into play because, because it was such exciting racing and the girl, I'm Rachel Cashin who was in third place, she was only a couple minutes behind me so you could ride a bike as well. So we were all, we all finished within a few minutes of each other, which is really exciting racing 13 hour race, but you can feel the energy people were pulled over on the side of the streets like I had never seen before. And I just, with support that was out there and that electric energy, I could literally feel it. And it really fed me cause I was like, I was, I was using it to my advantage. I was taking it and using it and that was a really pivotal time because it made me realize how you can actually put into practice harnessing that, that mind body connection and mastering your mind. Yeah. And this is something that, you know, I try and do nowadays whenever, because most, Speaker 2: (23:46) Most of the time, most of us in the future or in the past, you know, held bet with the crap that makes up my past. We get where in the predictable future is. Dr Joe Dispenza talks about if someone I follow very closely, we're emotionally one way we're being pulled or the other instead of actually being in the present and then creating our future without the baggage and in the middle of a rice, I can totally understand how that drains your imagery and yeah, keeping your mind in the right place. Yeah. Just such a crucial piece of the puzzle wasn't it? Yeah. You can try and everything, but you have to train that mind and then having that experience. So you managed to, so take us over the finish line on those last couple of minutes. What was it like Speaker 3: (24:36) Everybody, everybody was out on the street and a couple people that I trained with and my coach and everyone, it just seemed like everyone was there for me. I think they were there for both, for all of us. I felt like we were there for me and it was just electric and it was almost, I remember riding through red cliffs floor in red cliffs and when I went by her and you know, she, she was at, she was spent and I was just like, I was just like wrapping up. Like it was really crazy shift. But I just remember this, this feeling of the, the Hill I'm riding past the Hill and the people out cheering. It was like riding in an amphitheater. Wow. It was almost like an out of body experience. We just love lunch n*****s. But when I, when I got across the line, I absolutely freaked out. Speaker 3: (25:26) I just lost it and I was screaming and Jenny was like, we were like, cause I was just like, you know, I had such exquisite focus and discipline and then to get across the line and to actually achieve, you know, what I had set out to do, it was just like amazed. Like it was, it was an amazing feeling. It was like, it was pretty life changing. And then when when flare across the line and we high fived it, it was, I think she was really happy as well. Like obviously she didn't win, but it was an amazing thickened the story. It was a moment of empowerment for women in sports to see like, take that boys, this is not a boring one. Wars race. Our girl, and we made this awesome race and Florida and I knew it and it was all that moment wasn't about who won. It was about look at what, look at what an awesome race we just had Blake. Speaker 2: (26:23) Oh no, Ben is such a, you're such a good storyteller and I can feel the emotions of it. And having been in similar situations myself and just, yeah, a hundred K nationals that running around Talco and I'd had a really bad, I injured my back then the night before I, or an actually falling off, went here and hit my kidneys. So my kidneys were hit painkillers and at midnight we were starting it early in the morning and at midnight I was liking Hagan, me, you know, spasms and stuff. And I had take all these painkillers and of course then I was completely woozy with the painkillers. My mum had to dress me. That's how bad I was. And I'm standing on the, that line at 3:00 AM with my business partner and my coach Neil, who was doing his first hundred K and three o'clock in the morning and I'm like completely out of it. Speaker 2: (27:12) But going right, we're going, you know, yeah, here we go. We're doing what we're doing. That's agony. Like the first couple of hours, you're really, really bad. And then and then I started falling asleep because of the painkillers and I just kept, you know, who, who's doing his first hundred and I'm meant to be helping him. Right. And him holding my hand and trying to keep me away. Can you kind of, you know, wake me up as I'm passing out. It was probably good for him. He was great. And then as far more on in the day came in and my body started to wake up, as it often does in the painkillers was out of my system. And some have the kidney pain at least, and got out. Isn't it funny how that happens or the way you think it's all over. And then if you just go, sometimes you can get through it. Speaker 2: (27:59) And then we were running along, we're doing quite well. And then we got to about 70 kilometers in and Neil started to really break down then because it was his first race doing this. He was, you know, having those really deep, dark moments and the spear and crying and, you know, I should do, Oh, and going along and I'm talking to him and we, you know, so we've been helping each other way. And then for about 93, 94 kilometers, and one of my crew came back and they said, the number one lady is just ahead of you. I'm sorry, number two. So I was in third place at the stage and we reckon you can get her, you know? And so I was like, Oh, I've got to go. I'm leaving yet to my Mike Neil and I usually don't like to bend someone fishing. Speaker 2: (28:44) That helped me through the first half, faced as crying and God and go for, I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine. And so then I started drinking the Kaka call. I would watch guys don't drink, I only drink Coke if you're doing all [inaudible] it was like anything goes and was drinking and I was just going like in that flow state where you see you can see here and hitting me and I was just mowing or getting away from you. There is no way honey poke the call. I had my little cousin as a probably year old and he was running beside me and bringing me the codes and stuff and can come on, come on, come on. Speaker 2: (29:26) We passed that. She broke. Of course. You know, cause when you was yeah, and I didn't want to do that too, but I want to know like you have to do it. It's like liquid. And so I mowed down on and I ended up, so I was sick. And so the first birthplace gave it already come across but sick and the nationals. And that was just like one of those Epic moments, you know, one of those times that you and my poor might, Neil came over a few minutes later and he was fine. He had us be a standard Chi under his belt and just, you know, so you never quite know how race is going to go Speaker 3: (30:07) And it's never, it's, it ain't over till it's over. And you know, it was so funny because at that year, when, when in 2008 when it was such a close race, and I remember we were staying with some friends and I was debating about, Oh, should I wear an Aero helmet for the last ride or should I just use my normal helmet? And my friend said, well, you can make it up to, you know, 30 seconds quicker. And it's just like, well then we may have 30 seconds else. I've worn the Aero helmet, you know, one thing that people can do to train themselves to work on, on that being in the moment kind of thing is first of all I think just acknowledging that you are the master of your mind and it's your decision how you take things on. Are you gonna let external things that distract you cause that's all they are, what your competition's doing, what the weather's doing. Speaker 3: (30:56) Those are all just external distractions that you cannot control. So you have to acknowledge what you can control and what you can't control and be really mindful of, of, of just filtering things out. And if something does come at you, take it as like, just be really objective, be really clinical and clear and just take it as information and then, and then you can do some exercises too. Like you know, I'd be out on a training run and you know, long run and you're looking at that Hill way out in the distance of it's like seems so far. But then you go, well actually is it far like who decides how far it is? Like, depending on your perspective, it could actually be quite close. And then you, you run that, you do that run and then you quickly learn, well actually that only took me 10 minutes to run up to that Hill and it looks like ages. Speaker 3: (31:50) And so then you, you kind of take that and go, Oh okay. And then next time it doesn't seem so bad and next time it doesn't seem so bad. So like in the beginning when I was starting the training for longest day, like I had never done that kind of long training before. I was mainly doing like five days days and a few like triathlons and stuff. So to do like a six hour bike ride or a three hour, four hour run like that or big paddles, that was way beyond my variance level. And so in the beginning it almost seems unfathomable to have volume of training. But in the end it was like no big deal at all. And it was just, the only difference was a bit of experience and a bit of just gone, Oh it is fitness. Speaker 2: (32:34) But mostly it's your mindset. And you know what's interesting is like we, you've retired now and I've retired now and for prime going through, yeah, we're suitable now. [inaudible] For a while I'd go and try and do something long. That experience is actually gone. Like I have to reopen up their horizon again, Alex for when I, when I decided that I'm doing something along with today and it's like, what was I so far again where I was, it doesn't stay open. Like just the, I used to do hundreds of kilometers. It doesn't mean you can always stay there. So you actually have to keep, in other words, it's a muscle that needs to be [inaudible]. Speaker 3: (33:15) Yeah. And your body will only let you do so much. And that, that's actually kicked my butt a little bit because like I won't do anything for awhile. Like I'll do stuff but like, you know, getting yoga up and working on my lands, you know, cutting some gorgeous or whatever, and then it's like, Oh, I haven't been for a run in a way while I'm gonna I'm just going to go out for a run. And then, you know, you just think that, but like there's a bit of muscle memory there, but then you pay for it. Cause you know, yeah. Just Speaker 2: (33:41) You think, you think I remember my very last run that I did, which was right across the North Island for a charity of a three days. And with my, my husband [inaudible] and Neil, and it was for a friend of ours who had died and we were running across and I hadn't trained the entire year because I'd had mum sick and I sort of thought, ah, I'll be fine lot, way, way, way more. And then, Oh my God, it kicked my butt because I shouldn't been training. And I hadn't had that mental thing for basically a year, so I got to the finish line, but Oh well I wasn't in good shape, you know? Yeah. I know. And you think it would remain with you by the thousands? Speaker 3: (34:25) Yeah. It's like anything, you have to train it and practice it and that. Yeah. But that keeping your muscles active and [inaudible]. Speaker 2: (34:33) Yeah. And even like, like you're training and you're doing your fitness, it's very different to be doing those long sort of stuff. And they're grueling. What's in store for Emily now. So you're still doing that in [inaudible] week and people get them and yeah. Tell us a little bit about, Speaker 3: (34:49) Well, people can get the ends at the most bike shops in New Zealand. Like especially like the torpedo sevens and the bike shops. We have pretty good distribution there. We've been in the, the new worlds nationwide. Not all the new world stock, all the products though, but if you have, but, but they can certainly get fun. So if you bought like a favorite new world you can in there or you can go ask for them because that Speaker 2: (35:17) You get them in name or, huh. Speaker 3: (35:19) That's what picks peanut butter did. He got his customers to go in and harass the grocery buyers. So go in and like, just be shamelessly, you know, harassing, harassing them. Last year I brought out, I was the first to the New Zealand market with the him a protein cookie. Ed. I'd always wanted to make a protein cookie, but I wanted it to be vegan and natural and I wanted it to taste good. I didn't want to just load it up with sugar substitutes and protein powders. So my ham cookies are made with natural peanut butter dates are, and I'm hemp protein. Wow. And it's not just a token amount of hat. It's like 16 and 18% protein, which we source from New Zealand. And those are in all the countdowns. So most of them countdown. So countdown doesn't have my other range, but they have the ham cookies. Speaker 3: (36:07) Okay. So yeah, so bike shop, BP connect nationwide has, has a few of the bars and I'm actually just working on a distribution deal with a company and, and we're just still going through the process of pulling together all the information. But I'm hoping that that's going to help to give us more widespread distribution because that's like, that's one thing that I've always struggled with over the years. Cause we're a small company. I'm not, I'm not owned by a big food conglomerate. I don't have like big marketing budget from this kind of stuff cause it's really, it's really expensive to to really distribute it and service your product. Like when, when I first met Julisa I was doing that in store tasting new world and Wellington and like to do that all over the country. Obviously you can't do it yourself because you just can't be everywhere at once. But if I were to pay somebody to do that for us, like it's thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars and to do his disdain campaign like it's so it's hard but we're, but we are getting there. We're slowly, slowly just like just like a ultra or just like coast-to-coast, you know, you just take it, chunk it down one step at a time. Speaker 2: (37:18) A fun and fascinating whole distribution thing in the whole [inaudible] their business. Cause you know, I'm entrepreneur toe and I've got the same, it's different product obviously, but we've got my new book coming out and it's the whole same thing. You have to get it to distribution. You have to get into bookstores, you have to get on the Amazon Kindle. God knows [inaudible] box, get it actually, get it translate into other languages. Hopefully get it into Australia or new ways or this with stuff that you have to be aware of. Speaker 3: (37:44) Yeah, no idea. Oh, Oh totally. And like little things like packaging, like, like all of their packaging designs, there's so much that goes into it and people just think, I don't think they, I don't know if they realize just what goes on behind the scenes and just his magically arrived here. There's a lot that goes into it. So yeah. So I'm looking at, yeah, we want to hopefully get this distribution happening and, and it'll give us a little bit more like, you know, they'll be able to get us into more places like the four squares and hopefully more of the new roads and get more ranging and top down. So, so that's what's coming up. What else? So really working on that. And then we've got our property. And so I'm a bit of a homebody and I love working on my land. I love planting trees. Speaker 3: (38:35) I planted about 5,000 native trees on our property rehabbing. So we've got wish out the back, which is, it's absolutely beautiful. But the front section is on a whole hillside, which I, well it's funny cause it's got gorse on it. And you know, at first I was gonna just flip all the Gores to get rid of it, but it's actually really good to stabilize the Hill, but it's also nitrogen fixing it. The legume. Oh wow. It's actually really good for the soil. And nutritionally as a dietician it's the course isn't so bad. And also to the NATO, it's a good nursery plan for the natives to come through. Wow. So we've been up here for a few years now and even in that time I can see the native starting to overtake the course. Wow. But I'm still doing a lot of planting. Like I did a whole section that was quite steep and then I've got like along our road side that I've done. And it just takes a lot of maintenance and a lot of that'll keep your foot good guys. Keep me fit. Like if I, if I do a day on the scrub powder, I feel like I've done a big post to coast. Yeah, yeah. Speaker 2: (39:43) The aim. Let's, let's Oh, we got to wrap up now, but I just wanted to thank you very much for coming on the show and for sharing your wisdom because it's really interesting. I have no idea what it takes to doing coast to coast, so all I've ever done is run. Speaker 3: (39:58) I'm the same thing with all, like I, I'm sure like I could do an ultra, but I just couldn't imagine doing like a hundred or 200 Kane. Why? Oh, I don't know. My, I think my feet, I think my body's limit is about that 33 K of arch. Okay. That's me. Yeah. Speaker 2: (40:20) But yeah, it's different. A different, you know, techs, different skills and disciplines and to do something that complicated, I always look at coast-to-coast and go, Oh God. And the biking in the running in, you know, how much money that takes and how much it, yeah, I'll put it over here, shows a runner, Speaker 3: (40:37) This animal can, I can totally get that. The simplicity of running is, is there's a lot to be said for that. And then I have to say like bat is my go to fitness is yoga and running. Cause you just put on your shoes and go, there's no stop to the gear. Yeah. It's easy. Speaker 2: (40:52) So nice not to be fiddling around with stuff sometimes. Speaker 3: (40:56) Oh that's totally, totally, yeah. Speaker 2: (41:00) Wait, is it, you want to see like if you, you know, you've got the young girls out there that are starting out in their careers 40 or, or just thinking about things like anything. Speaker 3: (41:08) Yeah. If there's something stressing you out, don't worry about it. Just focus on yourself. Focus on what you need to do and just don't worry about other stuff. Just, you know, I used to spend a lot of energy wasted worrying about things I couldn't control. Yes. Like it's like Len, my quiet guy. I remember one time, you know, he just, you know, we were talking about something, I was stressing about something, you know, unnecessarily. And Lynn just said, don't worry about it. You'll be fine. You'll be fine. And that was, that was actually really good advice. So yeah, don't, don't stress stuff. And Speaker 2: (41:44) That might Manson was at a mall hose and just keep pushing forward. Hey, Speaker 3: (41:49) That's right. That's right. And just get out there and do it and just yeah, we're work on your mental game. [inaudible] There's some really great stuff. Like, I know you mentioned Joe does better than my husband actually just mentioned him. I'm going to start getting into his stuff. Speaker 2: (42:03) Amazing. Oh. Cause the whole mind body connection and the, the meditation and the power of leaving all the crap that you've gotten past behind. And it's some pretty deep stuff, but it's a, yeah. Work in progress. Speaker 3: (42:14) Yeah. It's all over. Can programs and just, you know, remember that you're not going to accomplish everything in a day. Like just do, do what you can do within your control and understand your limits and just put one foot in front of the other and just Speaker 2: (42:27) Go for it. Sounds brilliant. Awesome. So everybody know, kick kick-out aims cocaine and brought them support here. What's your website? Him? So it's power, cookies.com. Our cookies.com. Speaker 3: (42:41) Yay. Thanks so much, Lisa. That's be good. Speaker 2: (42:45) It's been lovely having you on and thanks for being such a great role model and yeah, we're hopefully we'll catch up with you again, so. Speaker 3: (42:52) Okay, that sounds really good. Thanks Lisa. Look forward to catching up with you as well. Speaker 1: (42:59) That's it this week for pushing the limits. Be sure to rate, review and share with your friends and head over and visit Lisa and her team. At www.lisatamati.com  

Transcript of Episode: Welcome to "Office Hours with Dr. Lacy". Hi, I'm Dr. Lacy, your Dissertation Strategist, where I help doctoral students finish their qualitative dissertations so that they can graduate and successfully become Doctor. Let's get started with this week's episode. Guess what? I am hosting my very first writing retreat in November. It's gonna be at home in Chicago and I'm inviting a few friends along for a beautiful, productive, rejuvenating writing retreat right before the holiday. So we are going to meet meeting in Chicago November 24th so this one is seven, four days, three nights of writing, scholarly pursuits, whatever that may be. Fun we are going to be talking about, so like for your scholarly self we're going to be talking about best ways of organizing yourself, how to make a realistic schedule and a realistic routes mean you're going to have some time to get some eyes and your writings. It really help you flesh out those ideas. Have a really solid plan for not only getting a significant rise in bed at the retreat. So cause there was nothing more I find annoying that we go to in the Bay. You're out, you're all excited and you're motivated and you're like, get them to do all the things and then you go home and you're like, I don't even know how to take the next step. So we're going to make sure that when you leave, you know what to do. Plus, you know, I don't like, I can't just sit there and just work, you know, that's not my emo. So while we will have 20 hours dedicated to solid writing time, we will also have time to talk about things that are happening outside of writing. Like how do you keep your motivation, how do you stay productive, how do you manage your chair and your committee and keep everybody on schedule and on the same page, how do you manage your own selves to that, you know, you can continue to show up and go after your doubles. Plus so much more. Breakfast and lunch is included in the price and we have three different options for packages available. So please, please, please go over to marvettelacy.com. Either you're going to click the red button at the top right corner and it says work with me. And there you will find all the information about the writing retreat. I'm so excited. I have so many surprises And we already have people signed up and so please don't miss out. I would hate for you to miss out. Just gone over to the website or you can DM me on Instagram and we can talk there and I can tell you more about it, but please don't miss out. All right, we're going to get onto today's episode. Oh, okay. Welcome back to week three. [inaudible] I'm going to try to make this fast because I'm not feeling well and my congestion and starting to overtake my throat and everything. But this week, which is a perfect segue this week is about execution, is the name of the game. And I said it's a perfect segue because I don't feel good and I just want to go lay back down cause I think I tried to do too much today. But I said I was wanting to do these episodes and it's about executing. And I know that this is going to be a few minutes. And then I get to lay down after that and I get to keep the, with my words and myself. And that's really what I want to talk about today, about the, like many of us are great at making plans and I'm saying all the things that we want to do and daydreaming about that and you know, scheduling it down in our paper planner and all I'm planning is like how exactly we're going to do it and how much time we're gonna spend on it. And then we don't put that same energy into executing, to showing up day after day when it gets difficult or tedious. We don't put the same energy into it and we don't execute. And that is a difference between people who have PhDs and people who don't. Are you executing? Like the people who give up, they didn't execute. And so [inaudible] we're going to be talking about how to execute today. I was thinking back when I was working on my dissertation and how I got really into planners. I'm not quite sure all the way how I got there. I think I saw one video on YouTube and then it went, it went down a rabbit hole and then I had a friend who was also into planners and we just got so into it. I think she, I mean she's still into it. I don't think it's the same as it was when we were writing dissertations. But we would like, I mean at least three, four times a week, I'm not exaggerating. We would go to like Michael's or Joanne's and buy all the planner supplies. I had so many planners, I had a planner for like writing my like dissertation. I had a planner for working out. I had a planner for class cause I was sick like one or two classes. I had a planner for self care and I even at one point I think I had a planner for like what my future life would look like cause I was about, I was about other things and I would decorate all of these planners each Sunday got to the, I'm side recording YouTube videos about it, but I'm, I would decorate it like full washi tape full of stickers. Cause you know me, it's not even, I can't do it a little bit. I didn't do any all the way. And I would do that. Like I'll spend hours decorating my planner. It was just like for me, it was my way of having stuff cares what I thought and plus what's happening. Say, organize, right? Yeah. W I was spending all this time making this pretty planned for the league and how's going get all these things done in different areas of my life. I also had like a business planning, cause I was starting a business in the middle of a dissertation. Who does that? I do. Well I had all these ideas of black clothes. I was gonna write everything in hours and hours on Sunday, only to get to Friday and Saturday and realize I may have done 25%, if that of what I said I was going to do. And so then I would feel like a failure. I feel like yeah. Bottom of like that's inappropriate. I would feel like yeah, like I just didn't do, I gave up. I didn't do it enough. All right. I took the easy way out. And then I would go and, and recommit myself for the next week and spend another three hours on Sunday. And like this week I'm serious. And you know, I created a whole cycle after psycho. And y'all, that's not true. And the funny part, I do like know that next week, so at the time of this recording, the following, we're in October and the following week I'm letting to be going to Austin, Texas with my sister in law to go to the Aaron Condron headquarters in Kadra. It makes the life planners kind of like one of the original, not original, but like one of the main people are the first people to really get big in this planner world and these planners can, I don't know, I felt like they range from like 50 to like all the way up to like two, $300, like depending on how you customize it and what you get. But anyway let's just, and I was really excited. I said I'm going to go with her to see it and I'm going to record it because I'm just really curious. But anyway, I'll let you know how it goes. Anyway, bags of my plan and story. Hey girl, the ones that come in the middle of this episode until you about my 90 day challenge. Yes. The last 90 days. How do we finish this year strong? So if you're familiar or Rachel Hollis, she does the last 90 days challenge and I decided to do my own version of that. And so I'm here to have all of my scholar friends make the last 90 days the best 90 days of 2019 all you have to do is come on over to the website, my bet at Lacey's dot com. Scroll all the way down to the bottom and you will see a button there for you to sign up. There should also be a button at the top of the page, but just in case you don't see it, it's there. And you are, you're on a sign up and you're going to get emails. And what I'm doing is sitting folks, an email every week full of motivation and a challenge for them to do every week in this challenge takes no time. Like it's asking you to take an hour for yourself in. Listen, if you don't have it, Howard, a day for yourself, like Rachel says, do you even have a life? So yes, that's where we're going to be doing for the 90 days. It's not too late to sign up. It's never too late to start going towards your dream. So please come on over to the website, sign up and let's get back to the episode. I mean, I spent so much money on stickers and washy and when I moved from Georgia after I graduated, I had at least three boxes, like large boxes. We're talking of planner stuff and supplies. And that was just ridiculous. And it wasn't until I transition into my job in Milwaukee that I realized I was using all of this planners stuff. As a form of procrastination. Like in my mind I thought I was doing something to help me be more productive and work smarter and to use the, I have the best use of my time to save you time in the end. But really it just ended up being hours and hours of procrastination. Me spending money I did not have on stuff that I did and I need. And it wasn't until I started doing things and executed on things that I saw a change in my level of productivity, a change in my wallet, a change in like the amount of time I had. And I also had to like stop at one point and just work. So I was a executing his wife finished that dissertation of four months executing and that's why I was able to grow my business so quickly and is best two years because they became stop planning and start doing sure you need a plan because you need to know that the direction you're going in. But there's no way you can figure that out in your head. You cannot account for everything that's going to happen and how that plan is going to need to change and shift or how life is going to come at you because you can't do the future. And so at some point you just got to do it some point you just got to start. So how do you execute? First you have to make the decision that you're going to do whatever the thing is. So if your goal is I'm graduating in may, make the decision and be done with it, stop going back and forth about a chapter in may or should I aim sorry about that. Should I do it in may or should I do it in August or maybe I December, I don't know. Let me go ask someone and stuff. Let me go talk to 10,000 people about it. No, make a decision, make a decision and try it on for 30 days and then evaluate to see how that's going. But you gone back and forth and spending all this time, it's you indulging in this indecision because you don't want to do the actual hard work that it takes to actually do the thing. So the first thing is to make the decision and stop saying things like, it's saving me time or I'm saving myself on the backend. You're not, you're wasting time. That's what you're doing. So make the decision is the first thing. The second thing is your top three. We're going back to the basics here every day you should have a top three. I would go further to say you should have a top three for the week and a top three for the month and even it's after for the year, but at the very least every day, top three, top three cause especially the times when I'm like, I just don't feel like it. I'm tired today when I wake up I have to do my top three. These are three things I'm getting done. It guides you, it gives you a clear plan of this is what you need to do. And when you finish those types of three things, you feel so accomplished and everything else is just icing on the cake and you just had three. Each items should take less than 20 minutes to do. So we're really talking about an hour of your day to do these things. And listen sometimes on my top three is to take a shower, brush my teeth and drink my water. We're not trying to like, you know, I dunno, reinvent the wheel. Sometimes it is that simple. Now. Other days it's more productively not per Deb because I feel like brushing your teeth is protective, but you get what I'm saying like some days is more complex things I should say, but having a top three. So first make a decision. Second habit top three. The third thing is your morning routine. Your success is in your routine. So if you're in this Langley day challenge, follow the basics in the morning. That's your morning routine and the basics are you wake up, you have an hour for yourself. That's your routine. You drink at least 64 ounces of water. You move for 10 minutes, you write for 10 minutes and you write your top three. That should take you about an hour or less. But if you don't have an hour for yourself, that's, that's ridiculous. Rachel, how this is like you don't have a hour for yourself. You don't have a life. I believe that an hour for yourself, your morning routine, if you start your day off giving to yourself everything else, it puts everything else in perspective. Everything else will get that. Everything else will fall into place. You not at you has your back enough in that day to give yourself an hour to set yourself up properly so that you can face today and things are not just happening to you that you're more intentional about what's going on in your day. And then the fourth thing is you have to evaluate your progress. What you measure grows. Isn't that the saying or something like that. And we're talking about something really simple. So at the end of the day, and if you have my daily planning sheets, then you would do this too. But essentially if you don't, you just wanna at the end of the year, end of your day or at the next day, during your morning routine, you want to ask yourself, what did I say I was wanting to do? Which is your top three? Did I do what I say I would do? Did you do your top three? Why or why not? And then what can I do differently tomorrow or next week or next year depending on when you're doing this, this evaluation, because you should be evaluating every day, every week, every month, every year. But at the minimum, evaluating your day, what did you say you were going to do? Did you do what you say you were going to do and what can you do differently the next day? Answering those questions, we're talking two to five minutes, but it makes all the difference in, holds you accountable to yourself. It helps you to start to see things or areas where you may need a little bit more assistance in and you can go ask for help for the thing you actually need help with instead of vomiting words on to someone and they have to try to figure out what it is that you need help with. This helps keep you organized. And then the fifth thing is to rest and repeat. Taking some time for yourself. Yes, but not too long, but going back up. So the first thing of making the decision, writing out your top three, doing your morning routine and evaluating your progress, doing this every day, day in and day out, we'll take you so much further than you try and sit down and liking, getting the washy tape out and the stickers and all the planners and like what needs to go here and what needs to go there. Keep it simple. What is it that you want to do? Make decision to do it right. Your top three every day to get you closer to that. Go have a morning routine, evaluate your progress, rest and repeat. And that is all because I used to buy chest is like on fire. So if you need this and that printable sign up for the 90 day challenge and that will come to your inbox. Be curious to know what your thoughts are about today's episode. You can let me know on Instagram, mr Lacy or in the Facebook group, cos scholars. And then yeah, I'll be hanging out with the people in you. And yet that is it for today. I'm going to go yeah, because I'm all over the place. Do something to show yourself some love and until next time I will talk to you later. Bye for now. Hey SIS, how is your productivity going? No, for real. It's just you. I mean like tell me how is your productivity going? You feel like you're getting a lot done in a week or do you feel like you're just doing a lot in a lie and you're feeling burnt out? Still a little bit lonely, wishing you had people who were just as dedicated as you are and the assistant as you are to showing up week after week to get things done. Then you have to join right away. Right away is my weekly accountability group where we had people just like you showing up every week to get it done. We meet on Sundays and Wednesdays are three hours each. You can choose to come either Sunday or Wednesday or both. You can come in for some time. We ask that people stay for the whole time, but we also know like life is real, life happens and sometimes you have other things to do. And so we have people who come in for maybe the first 30 minutes and then they leave when they come back. It is there for you. It is there as a community of people to encourage you to support you. It is there to keep you accountable to what you say you're going to do week after week in class. We are always like holding each other down. We are supporting each other. We celebrate the small wins that like your family and friends don't get. Like I don't understand why it might have been exciting for you to find the perfect methodology or that perfect article that explains exactly what it is that you want to do for your dissertation. That's not us. We do that. Well you, we're here to celebrate with you and then when you need someone to help keep you together, like call you to the carpet. We're there to, to do that. So come to the website, check us out. Enjoy. Now. you can go to my vet, like see back, calm. Click the red button in the top right corner, work with me, and you'll find all the information that you need there. I love this group. We've been going for almost a year now. You definitely, definitely should join.

Do you have a business goal? Do you just want to start your business? Well then I hope you are ready for this episode.     In this episode Barbara Grochowska discuss the three elements you need to reach any goal, but especially a business goal.     We will be discussing:     Gaining clarity! How and why you need it when starting on a journey. Making a plan! Do you understand the steps it will take to get you to your goal? Execution! You can’t reach that goal if you aren’t setting yourself up for winning by creating great habits from the get go.     Episode Mentions:     Neuro-linguistics Programming (NLP)     Tony Robbins     Positive Psychology     Atomic Habits by James Clear     Working with Barbara Grochowska:     Website: https://www.barbaragrochowska.com/     Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/BarbaraGCoaching/     Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/barbara_grochowska/     Email: barbara@barbaragrochowska.com     Free Goal Setting Cheat Sheet: Here!     Read the Transcript Below     Welcome to rich in differences with your host, Brooke, where we discover what works for you in life, health and business. We are not Legos and one size does not fit all. So grab a good drink and come listen to different perspectives as we see what sticks for you.     So thank you for listening to rich in differences. And today we have guest speaker Barbara Grochowsa. She's hailing from London today where is extremely hot. Thank you for being with us. Barbara.     Thank you for having me, Brooke.     So I've interviewed Barbara before for one of my classes and she is amazing. She is a great teacher and coach so I can't wait for her to teach her lessons for today. I'm going to read something that I found off of her application that I felt was very insightful and very much how most of us feel in the, in the service space industry. Is it okay if I read a part of your, your application answer Barbara?     Yes, Absolutely.     All right. So she wrote to me in the application. I've lived a great part of my life on autopilot pleasing people. And going through the motions of every day and at last I had to wake up call, which made me become brutally honest with myself and what I wanted in life. I didn't have the skills at that point to change the things around as soon as possible, but I was determined to pave my own way to my ultimate freedom and being control of my life, which I feel like, a lot of us have that moment. And I love the fact that you bring up, bring up the point, like you didn't have the skills at that time, but you're a willing to get the skills in order to go the path you wanted to go. What happened at that time and what did you end up, you know, learning or creating to help yourself move forward on your own path?   So at that time when I realized, and I was living on the autopilot,  I was married, I had a beautiful house. I had everything that I wanted to have, when I was in my twenties and I thought, I just hit a jackpot and I was happy at the time, but everything came down to pleasing people. I  was pleasing people instead of just being myself. I just got into the part of my health, my ex-husband’s family and hoping the things work out and also the thinking of like everyone was getting married around me. Everyone was getting, you know, buying houses, going through different things. And I felt like, Hey, I need to do that too because everyone else was doing that. But then there was some problems in my marriage and before, actually I turned 30, I got divorced and that was the best up call for me because that opportunity helped me to realize that I really need to live my life. I literally didn't know at that point what I'm going to do, but I felt such a beautiful freedom of the, I can do whatever I wanted to. No one's going to stop me. Obviously at that time, you know, it was like I was, everything was new for me at that point and I just, you know, I wasn't exactly sure what that's going to be, but I knew I just going to do something, just something, like extraordinary, something that I haven't done before and not to worry about, you know, all the people, other like part of the family. They were judging me. So he was really, I really need that, like the wakeup call because that's why I was able to find my identity, my voice. Cause during that time when I was married, you know, it was just following others and as I said before, placing people.     Yeah, no, I totally understand. I've definitely been there with the pleasing people in the divorce and finding out afterwards, like after your divorce, realizing I can do whatever I want to do. I can be whoever I want to be. There's, you know, I'm not having to change myself or twist myself into something I'm not in order to make other people happy. So I totally appreciate that. What did you end up deciding to do?     So I felt at that point I'm just going to be a rebel. I went parsing a lot hard and loud and I actually, I moved countries for like six months. I just needed a break from UK. So I actually moved to New Jersey and stayed with my sister and I thought that time, who helped me to figure out my next step in life. Because at that point I just quit my job. I still, I was at the uni, but it was everything online so I could just take the study with me. But then, you know, as much as I had a lot of time to thing in insights, I just didn't, it didn't feel right for me over though. Like I just couldn't, I couldn't get the idea. Maybe I put, I think I was putting too much pressure on myself as far as trying to figure out what's going to be next for me in life. So after that I decided to go back to London and then, you know, it's not like I figured out right away, the moment I touched down in London that yes, that's what I'm going to do after what I think after a couple years I was, I got a path of self-development and I started listening and reading more about that and about, you know, how we can change our mindset and, and you know, all of those great things that we can, you know, enhance our life experience. It was my friend’s influence as well. I was talking to him, um, about becoming a coach and he's kind of, I think, you know, these are traits that place for people in your life that had just come in and they teach you a lesson and then, so sometimes they were spies, sometimes they will go, and he was one of those friends, he just, you know, introduced me to like the NLP and coaching and introduced me to different parts of service developments as well. So that's what I started, you know, getting more into coaching. I mean, I wasn't coaching at that point, but I was, I started researching and I thought, Whoa, you can actually make money coaching people. Because before I was, I was pretty ignorant when it came to coaching and self development, I was just, I had this kind of, you know, background where you should have figured out, you should figure out all the things, how to live, how to take care of yourself and so on. And you know, is it the black and white? That's it. Thanks to him actually. And I was able to see that, it's not the point, it’s not the case and there is so much more to life. The exploration of your bribe and yourself. It's so much beautiful when you take a time and you are actually willing to do the work as well. So that's where I decided to pursue this coaching path. And I liked, you know, the neuro linguistic programming. I found it very, you know, fascinating. And I was at the same time, I was, watching a lot of YouTube videos with Tony Robbins and all other, you know, influencers who they're, um, pioneers in this app development. And that was just like fascinated about it. I was just like, wow, I really want to do that. And even though, you know, looking back, even before I got married, I used to, you know, I like to inspire people. I like to, you know, bring the positivity into life and so on, but didn’t actually paid attention to that. So actually, you know, I looked into becoming a coach then I couldn't just go in and do the coaching because I didn't, I literally didn't know where to start. So I had to, I started researching, I hired a coach to help me to build my online business too. Honestly, it's, it's so hard when you haven't done anything like that before. It is so important to get a mentor or you know, some training course to find out how to do that because you can try to invite everyone in the world. But it's just so much time consuming. But if you can…     She's laughing cause I'm over here shaking my head vigorously. It really is hard if you don't have someone there to kind of help you guide the way some.   Absolutely. And then I came after that, I came across something really cool because I didn't want to only focus on motivation. I also wanted to combine like healthy living as well because for me health is so important. And since I remember I always make, I used to make like different things in the kitchen, like put all the like superfoods into my, in some nice movie like exercise during fasting and so on. And it was cool. I really enjoyed it. So I really had to make this decision, you know, am I going to be a coach who is just to the left coaching and just do it with the mindset, Oh am I going to be health coach? And I felt, you know, I couldn't, you know, at that point I didn't know I could just merge them. And the training that I did actually last year, it helped me to combine both of them and actually even enhanced that pretty much at the moment, human potential coach. So that involves everything like the mindset that have hacking positive psychology, everything to enhance, you know, your persona to help you find out who you are and how, you know, how you can perform at your best in your life. That, you know, I had to, you know, this course was this, this training was amazing. Helped me to acquire the skills that I needed to work with people. It gave me the container, how to actually hold the session with both the clients, how to work with them and you know, how's actually listened to them and how to read them. Because, you know, life coaching. It's not that you go into tell someone you have to do this and that and you will be fine. It's like exploring this person to find out exactly what's going on and, you know, direct and, or using the powerful question to have him or her to find their own path because me telling them what they're going to do is just, it's not gonna work because what has worked for me if I work for them, they need to find their own solution.     Yeah. So that was my journey of finding the skills [inaudible], It's just, that was the beginning of my journey because I learn every single day. I learned something different. I read different books to learn to, you know, to serve better as well.   Oh yeah. It's definitely a continuously growing yourself as well. Your learning doesn't stop. No one's learning stops.     Yeah, exactly. If you don't, there's no growth, as someone said.     Yes. Okay. So you are going to come on here and talk about on getting clarity on your goals and creating plans and steps and executing, which I'm sure is something that you've obviously utilized in your own practice in order to get ahead in your own practice. So what would you like to say on those steps?     So the first step would be to actually find exactly what you want to do. You need to find the clarity. It's, whatever it is. If it's in a business or there is something, a personal thing, take a time to actually find what you want to do. Describe it. Like be very precise. If you for example, struggling with that to find what that is. Take a time, just go unplug from everything. Just go for a walk or meditate, whatever works for you. Take a time, visualize that. Visualize what that is you want to do. Because if you don't have clarity, there's no point. You won't be able to find the right steps to get there. Because, it's just doesn't work that way. Otherwise you could just go into, go from one point to another one and then you cue. You would keep changing mind all the time. So the next step, is they have to be very honest with themselves on where they are right now and say, you know, the gap between where they are right now and the place where they want to go or what they wanted to, and from that point they need to write down what skills they need, what it's required to get from that point to where they want.   I agree.     Yeah, it's theirs. I don't know. For me personally, it took me a while to find the clarity, but then the moment I did, I was like, there's no, there was no distraction. I was just pretty focused on what I wanted to do and that was my path and it just took me way, you know, shorter time to get where I wanted to go. The third step to, you know, to reach the goal. This is, I think that will be the hardest part because there's some of elements you need to, yeah, to make sure you get there. You need to break down the goal you need to decide what will take you to get there, like you need to sit out like [inaudible], for example, how much time you need to put into your work each day. Can you do that? I was actually, last time, I just finished everything I broke, which is called atomic habits. I would just recommend to everyone, cause this book tells you exactly how to design the habits that, you know, there might be a small ones, but with stacking them over the time will help you to develop the daily routine. But you don't need to force yourself where you don't need to try to look for the motivation of doing the steps necessary steps to get where you want to go. You know, motivation, what works for a very short time. But if you've got the system down is like on, it's kind of, it's afterword becomes as a autopilot, but it's the good of the pilot to just, you just, for example, you get up in the morning and if you want to get fit, you get up, put you a running gear on and you're out of the door or just go into the, to the gym and you exercise and so on. So you need, you know, this is the part where we, people have to like break the goals, decided what's the rituals, habits they need to adopt for them to get where they want to go.      All right. So this reminds me of kind of like going to college. So anybody who's been to college or even in high school, they used to do it to bring you into the guidance counselors office and y'all would go over what classes you're going to take and what's your goal. And like in college you do the two, like, what are you majoring in this year? And so here are the 120 credits you need in order to major in this. And it's kinda like it sets up the steps for you and you know where you know what the end goal is and you know everything you've got to do to get to the end goal. And a lot of times that's exactly how you need to be in life as well. Like here's my end goal. Like you said, what are all the steps I need to take to get there? And then I need a schedule that in my life so I can be making that progress. I always just reminds me of like going to college and how a lot of times we don't do that. We don't treat it like we're trying to get a degree and that we have to have these markers in place and we have to make the time to get those, reach those markers and then eventually we do hit our goal. And so that's us what those kind of reminds me of. It's like, remember when you had the, you know, go to college and you had the schedule and you had the plan and you had to show up and you know, you had to have all that in place or else you are never going to graduate with your degree.     Yeah, absolutely. It's like you becoming your own parents, because it can be wishy washy. Like, ah, I'm just going to do it tomorrow and then the tomorrow comes and it's not fair. Like now there is no negotiation. You just get up. Don't make a shake, sit down and do what do you need to do. And you know, I kind of I miss on one side, however, I didn't miss that. Being in college, you actually know you don't, you don't need to do the work you sat because you've got the major and you know exactly what steps they, the steps were given to you. You're on your own. Yeah. You need just figure out yourself, but then you can make your so much fun as well and enjoyable at the same time. Yeah. It's just, it's all about mindset as well.     All right, so you kind of, I'm pretty sure he talked about this a little bit because you said that you determine what you wanted to do and then you knew kind of the steps you wanted to take. So my question had been like, you know, what happened to get you started? Or maybe what happened after you started your journey and you created, you got clear on your goal, you created your plan and you started executing it. What are some of your outcomes from it?       Oh, that was, I'm just slapping it. It was just like love, hate relationship with my goal, pretty much. I really had to be honest with myself. I provided massive vision of myself of what I want to do, what I'm up to, what I want to have and what I want to be in like in five years, you know, I had to be very specific because if you're not specific, it just kind of do things, whatever I feel like. But when I decided whatever you wanted to either designed it designed like the steps of, you know, what would go into take, what would take for me to get the, and you know, it wasn't easy to follow through and I'm still in the process, you know, it's, even though I've created some sort of system, it's, this is something that I'm still working on. You know, that there are good days, bad days, there's some days that are really struggling to get up in the morning and just, just get all with this task and just do what I or I supposed to be doing. And during those times I've really, I take a time to remind myself what I'm working for, this is the, that is my motivation. Because I've been doing that for quite some time now. I've developed the ritual like even a morning ritual where, for example, in the morning like I get up like five o'clock in the morning, go for a run. Then when I came back, come back that I have some time for myself, and then I spent at least hour to answer my CO's or emails and then having my breakfast and then go to work. And then in the evening, I tend to work with my clients. When I look at it right now. Or even when I looked at it like let's say two years ago, I thought, well, what's happened with my free time? It's like, what's happening with me? Meeting with friends, actually being so scheduled, being so organized, giving more freedom of, you know, spending actually creating the relationships that actually matter to me. Not spending some random times with people that I don't like, or they don't happy to grow or they know they criticize or something like that. They don't believe what I do. So that was, that was, you know, I love, I love that. I have to say, as I mentioned before, the good days and bad days and having the, you know, visualization practice helps a lot. So yes, I'm just thinking of who else helped me to actually create that. Yeah, what's happened? Sorry.   No, I was going to say, I know you gave some pretty good ideas. Being honest with yourself. That's a big one. Most people just think that they're going to create a plan and then they're just going to fit it in. Like I'll just make it work and that's just not how life works. You actually have to create a schedule and plan it in and also you know, understanding that this plan is a, like a living, breathing thing. Like it may not be exactly as you created it, you know, two years ago. So you probably are going to adjust it to fit as you grow and your life changes. It also will have to adjust as well and showing up and making like it sounds like you have like set hours. Like this is what I do now, and I do this every day or at least is to the best of my ability and you know, everything else you know that has to wait. You know, like this is business hours for me, so you know, you are calling me up and saying you need a ride to the airport. This really isn't going to work right now because I'm working, you know. So it's like the idea of also being strong in your, the times you are set and keeping to them as well. So I feel like you've given a lot of information, but if you got more we'd be more than happy to hear it.     Yeah. Actually, you mentioned about the scheduling. We are so happy with doing that to do list and thinking like, Oh, we're gonna crump all of it in one day and it's going to be brilliant and I got to move so fast into achieving my goal. It doesn't work that way as much as much we could have such a good intention to, you know, to do as much in one go, but Hey, that, you like, I'm so guilty of over-scheduling hoping that you know, our monitor that and you know, that's going to have to get it done in the next week. Oh actually, you know, this actually doing the projects or the goals that they want to achieve. Like normally achievable within a month. I was planning, Oh let's just do that in one day or one weekend. No, you have to be realistic. You work at, you will burn out you will hate the process. So fear artistic of how much time each task is going to take. And for example, if you finish, don't feel bad about that. Sometimes things happens. You have another day to complete that.     Yes. Grace to self.     Yeah.     It's important to show grace to self as much as we show grace to others. All right, so I know you've given already some ideas, but if you were to teach someone how to start this, like what exactly would you say? Like should be like their first steps in getting started. Do you have like, like grab a journal, grab a planner or like how would you teach someone to sit down and do this, you know, get clarity on their goals, creating a plan and then executing.     Hmm. So the first step would be I would recommend everyone to just unplug completely. Not to like turn off the TV, turn off you YouTube, you don't want to have an influence or anything like that on I think to disturb you and even like going for a walk, just go for a walk, clear your mind and think of what you really want. If it's for example, if it would help you to put the words on the paper, do what it's because only that way you can find the clarity of the goal. Obviously with the time it might change, like slightly different direction but right at this point unplugging, cutting out on the distraction on side to side. It's the first step to actually to get the, you know, the get the clarity on the goal.     Okay. That's it and it's excellent. I totally agree and I think it is in part like you brought up like, it's important to bring up, like you said, like it can change over time. I feel like a lot of times we get stuck on this idea that once I write this down, this is it. This is all I'll ever do, and our brain goes, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. What if we want to do this? Who do we want to do that? Oh my God. You know, you're, you're cutting everything else out. But the truth is you've got to start somewhere though. Once you got landed somewhere, as you grow, you can pivot as necessary when you're ready or when it's appropriate to. So don't get locked up in the idea that this is it, but you do have to start somewhere. So yeah, getting away and making some sort of decision like this is what I'm going to focus on right now is very important to get in getting started on that journey because I'm the world's worst with that.     Oh God. I think I, I'd like to add to that point that that's, that is don't chase every tiny object on the way. And now everyone, there's so much noise out other, you know, people though you think different things, just be unique. Be yourself. Find the thing that works for you. That's it.   Barbara, how can people work with you these days?     At the moment I provide one on one coaching so they can just go to my websites and just book their discovery session so that can had the testers, a taster as well of my session, my coaching style. Excellent.   And take it from there.     All right, so I'm going to put her website information down below in the show notes so you'll be able to find her if you want to work with her. And are you on any social media these days, like working people kind of maybe follow you in your work?     Sure. So I am on Instagram, which is BarbaraGrochowska, G R O. C H. O. W. S. K. A. I know it's a hard run, and I’m on the Facebook because well, which is, I couldn't get the same [inaudible] but it's Barbara G coaching. That's the another place people can find me as well.       Excellent. And again, I'll put that down below in the show notes so you can just simply click on the link and go right to her, right to her page and her information. All right, Barbara. I believe that's it. I appreciate you coming on here and chatting and teaching us all about your steps and your journey. I think your journey is great and I love how raw and honest you are because truth is none of us have it all figured out and it is a work in progress for the rest of our lives essentially. It never gets completely figured out. So thank you for coming on here and chatting with us. Thank you so much for having me. All right, pop tarts, us all for this week remembers send in your thoughts, your feedback, your ideas, your questions, and your drink of choice, whether it be alcoholic or non alcoholic, and be sure to send in the recipes so you can be featured on the show. And don't forget, subscribe. So you can be around for when I feature you on the show and it gives some good content. Here's to another week. Cheers.    

Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between! Week Four and the final official episode of Submissions September!  We will be back next Monday for one more episode to answer some questions we received.  But for today’s episode, we’re talking about the other side of the submissions process.  Who is reading these manuscripts?  Do they have a process?  What are they looking for?  Rekka and Kaelyn discuss what is happening on the publisher’s side of this and Kaelyn goes on a few minor tirades. In case you’re just joining us, this month is Submissions September on the We Make Books Podcast, we’re doing seven (7!) episodes this month all about the process of submitting your novel.  We have a lot of awesome discussions lined up and even some special guests.  Here’s what will be coming your way for the month: Week 1 (9/3/2019): Is This Ready For Other People to See?- Submitting Your Manuscript Week 2 (9/10/2019): My Entire Novel in Three Hundred Words - The Dreaded Query Letter Week 3 (9/17/2019): Agents of Literature, Part 1: An Interview with Literary Agent Caitlin McDonald               (9/18/2019): Agents of Literature, Part 2: Interviews with Agented Authors               (9/19/2019): Agents of Literature Part 3: Interviews with Agented Authors Week 4 (9/24/2019): What is Going On Over There? - The Other Side of the Submissions Process Week 5 (9/30/2019): Now I’m Even More Confused – Submissions September Q&A Episode We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writer and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and your thoughts on Eli Manning as a future Hall of Famer.  It’s a minimum of six years off, but apparently the entirety of anyone associated with the NFL needs to have this discussion right now. We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast       Rekka:00:00   Welcome back to, we make books, a podcast about writing, publishing and everything in between. I'm Rekka, I write science fiction and fantasy as RJ Theodore. Kaelyn:00:07   And I'm Kaelyn. I am the acquisitions editor for Parvus Press. And this is my episode. Rekka:00:12   It's all yours. I'll interrupt a couple of times, but you throw things at me right back down. Kaelyn:00:17   This is my wheelhouse. This is my end of things which we are talking about. Okay. We did all this submission stuff. I've sent my manuscript, what's happening to it? Is it being well taken care of? Is someone feeding it, taking it for walks? Rekka:00:28   No, it's all trampled through the mud. Kaelyn:00:31   No, we're very nice to manuscripts and submissions. We take excellent care of them. Rekka:00:35   Also they're digital. Kaelyn:00:35   Yeah, we have a little, it's a, it's like a playpen submissions portal. They all go there and play together it's adorable. You should see it. Yes. Anyway, so yeah, we kinda, that's what we talk about. This episode is what's happening on the other end. Um, and what I'm looking for, what I'm looking at, what I'm doing and when I say, I mean general acquisitions process kind of stuff. Um, we do, you know, we do kind of mention obviously everything and everyone is different, but there are some broad strokes that are pretty universal. Rekka:01:06   Yeah. Kaelyn:01:06   So, um, you know, this is, this is sort of the end of Submissions September. Um, we've mentioned in the episode we are going to do a questions, follow up episode. Rekka:01:17   Yeah, we've been collecting questions and so we'll take the ones that we have so far, um, time being what it is. There might be more that follow up later, but these are the ones that we've collected in time to record for this month. Kaelyn:01:28   God, that whole linear time. Rekka:01:30   Time can be wobbly. New Speaker:  01:31   Yes. Um, so yeah. Anyway, hope you enjoy this episode. We hope you enjoyed submissions September. Rekka:01:37   Yes. Kaelyn:01:37   It was fun. We enjoyed doing this. Um, I enjoyed doing it. Rekka:01:41   It was awful because a lot of work. Kaelyn:01:43   Yeah. It really was. Rekka:01:45   Between scheduling all the interviews you've heard and uh, and then editing them in different weird ways depending on how we recorded them. Yeah. So, um, yeah, it's, it's been a lot of production on our part. Kaelyn:01:56   I learned a lot about audio files. Like more than - Rekka:02:00   More than you ever wanted. Kaelyn:02:01   It's more than I ever thought would be necessary for me to, so we've all grown here. Yeah. Rekka:02:06   So after this we're taking off and we're going to go mini golfing and we're going to enjoy ourselves more. We have to edit all the episodes you're going to be hearing. Kaelyn:02:14   So, um, you know, thanks for sticking with us and uh, we hope you enjoyed the episode. Rekka:02:19   Thanks everyone. Speaker 4:       02:28   [music] Kaelyn:02:37   So, last episode Submission September. Rekka:02:41   It has been a long and winding month. Kaelyn:02:43   I have not come out of this in one piece. I'm falling apart. Rekka:02:46   Yes. And that's not because of submissions. Well, actually we don't know. Kaelyn:02:49   You don't know that. Rekka:02:50   We have no proof. Kaelyn:02:53   Okay. Um, yeah. I, when I was on vacation, I broke my toe and as a result of walking funny on it, I have now messed up my lower back. I'm currently sitting propped up with a lot of pillows behind me and trying not to move too much. Um, it's not the most comfortable I've ever been in my life. Rekka:03:11   And later we're going hiking. Kaelyn:03:13   We're going to play mini golf. Rekka:03:14   That's worse because you gotta bend over. Kaelyn:03:17   Yeah, I can walk,walking's well actually that's not true. I can't really walk with - Rekka:03:22   You can do a, an imitation of a walk. Kaelyn:03:24   Yes. It's fine. Rekka is just going to carry me on her back. Rekka:03:28   Yeah. Kaelyn:03:28   Yoda-style. Rekka:03:29   Because my back's in great shape too. Kaelyn:03:31   Exactly. Rekka:03:32   So there you go. Kaelyn:03:33   Perfect. Rekka:03:33   We've got to plan. Kaelyn:03:34   Our voices are still working. That's all that matters. Rekka:03:36   Hey, you know. Kaelyn:03:37   Actually for you that's touch and go. Rekka:03:38   Yeah, that's not necessarily true, I need water. Kaelyn:03:42   Um, so yeah, we're talking today about, um, you know, we spent all of September going over everything, leading up to turning your submission into someone. So here's what's happening on the other side. Now somebody gets those submissions and reads them and has emotional reactions at Parvus that someone is me. Rekka:04:03   Yes. Kaelyn:04:04   So, you know, as I said in the beginning of every episode, I'm, I'm the acquisitions editor for Parvus Press. So, uh, you're not sending your work into a black hole. You're sending it to me. Um, and I'm going to look at it and say, sure, let's move forward with this. Or thank you, but we can't accept this right now. Um, so before we really get into this, there was one thing I wanted to clarify and that was that I was surprised when I started getting into this that I'm actually a little bit of a rare breed. There are not a lot of strictly acquisitions editors, any- Rekka:04:43   Yeah. Kaelyn:04:44   Anymore. Yeah. Um, a lot of places now, especially especially in our genre and Scifi and fantasy, um, I'd imagine across most places, um, editors kind of are doing their own acquisition process. They're kind of picking what they want to work on. Um, larger publishing houses will absolutely have more of a system in place just because they have to. Um, but a lot of times editors, um, especially when dealing with agents will kind of pick and choose their own stuff. Now they still typically have to take it to a publisher, to a senior editor, and it still has to go before the committee, so to speak. Rekka:05:23   Right. Kaelyn:05:24   They don't get to just say, Yup, this one I'm taking this. Um, they still have to get it, I don't want to say approved - Rekka:05:30   But kind of, I mean, like it's a group decision, um, because it's for the entire company, you know, the, the book and its sales will benefit the company and it's a production costs will come from the company's coffers. So it's not just an editor can decide on their own in most cases. Now maybe there are editors who just get a budget and they're like, here's your budget, turn it into something for the company. Kaelyn:05:54   Those editors have have multiple awards. Rekka:05:56   Yes, exactly. Kaelyn:05:57   And the sales and marketing team's also gonna have like something to say about it. Rekka:06:01   Right. Kaelyn:06:01   But the whole point here is that, um, while there are definitely the acquisitions editors, acquiring editors, whatever you want to call them, absolutely still do exist. Um, especially if you're have having an open submissions period because someone's gotta be in charge of, it's me at Parvus. Rekka:06:20   Um, so in a way, would you say that an acquisitions editor is more like a project manager these days? Kaelyn:06:27   Um, I'm not sure project manager is the exact correct analogy, but yes, and similar. Rekka:06:35   I don't think so, but yeah. Kaelyn:06:36   Yeah. It's, well, because I really more of a filter. I'm the first one you have to get past, right? Rekka:06:45   When you delegate from there and you, you make decisions, having seen the broad landscape as a whole. Kaelyn:06:51   Yeah, it's definitely that. Yeah. And an acquisitions editor will also work very closely with a sales and marketing team to kind of determine like, Rekka:06:58   Is there a vision? Kaelyn:06:59   Here's what I think we can do with this book and here's the plan I have for it and here's who we can sell it to, et cetera. How to position it. Rekka:07:07   Yeah, exactly. Kaelyn:07:08   So on my end, I'm taking all of that into consideration when I'm looking at these things. So, you know, you submit online, I've got a submissions manager, I've got a portal that I log into and I see everyone's query letters and their submissions and um, and I just dive in and this is very typical. You're going to get into the submissions manager. They're going to give you, um, you know, the steps of how to do all of this. If you go to Parvus's website, we have a video up of, you know, here's how you walk through your submissions process. Um, usually it generates like a number, an ID of some kind, just so you know, you can reference that. Rekka:07:51   Yeah. I like an order number. Kaelyn:07:53   Yeah, exactly. I referenced them a lot because I have a notebook that I keep track of all of this stuff in and um, the, this is going to come as a galloping shock to everyone I'm sure, but a lot of the same words get used in titles and stuff. And so I sometimes actually just remember things by their number because you get so many of the same words popping up in titles. I don't want to confuse anything. Rekka:08:20   In the noun of Noun or something. Kaelyn:08:22   Yes, exactly The This of The Thing. Yes. Um, so we've talked a lot in previous episodes for submission, September about a lot of do's and don'ts and we'll get to some more of that at the end. But - Rekka:08:39   But this one isn't so much about what you would be doin, the writer as what Kaelyn is experiencing on the back end in terms of what she receives, what her process is, her thoughts and like the decisions she's making and how she comes to them.   Kaelyn:08:55   And of course I speak for all acquisitions editors. Rekka:08:58   Absolutely, 100%. Everything you hear is uh, like Ironbound. Kaelyn:09:03   We are a collective hive mind. I'm communicating with them right now mentally. Rekka:09:07   That is not true. This is the opposite, uh Kaelyn is an individual and works for one company and other companies may do things differently and contain other individuals who are not part of a hive mind, whatever, Kaelyn would like you to believe about her supernatural abilities. Kaelyn:09:22   Um, it's true. I'm only part of the only part of the Parvus Hive Mind. Rekka:09:27   Yeah. So, um, of course what we're saying is that your results may vary with another publisher. Um, that publisher will have their own practices and their own, you know, way of going about this. So, um, this is just to give you some insight, but it is not the end all be all encyclopedia entry on how this do. Kaelyn:09:47   Now, that said, I will say that some of the things I'm about to say right now, they're pretty universal across the board. One of the things is if I open your submission and you have not followed the submission guidelines, that's probably gotten tossed right away. Um, it's, yeah, we've talked about this a little bit, but it's one of those things that I have hundreds of these. Rekka:10:08   And you're not going to pick the person that's clearly not going to follow instructions even from the get go when they are supposed to be making their best impression. And can't even follow the instructions you have given and laid out for them. Kaelyn:10:23   It's harsh to say, but I don't have time for that. I don't mean that to be callous. I don't mean it to be rude. It's a business decision. Rekka:10:28   It's your first business decision of the query. Kaelyn:10:30   It's a business decision. But it's also, I mean, I literally don't have the time for this. Um, so if you have done something that, you know, you haven't followed the submissions guidelines, there is a very, very, very good chance, not just me, most anyone interested in acquiring books are just going to go in the garbage. Um, so that's sad. You know, let's say they've got your submission lined up and correct and everything. Um, this is something maybe everyone doesn't want to hear, but I probably have a list of things that I'm interested in. Rekka:11:05   Right. Kaelyn:11:06   It's not carved in stone. It's definitely not, you know, like pleasant surprises. Absolutely. I love pleasant surprises. Um, but every time we have an open submissions period, uh, we do put, you know, like Kaelyn is interested in this, Colin is interested in this and we do kind of say like, Hey, you know, these are what we're especially excited to look for. Pleasant surprises absolutely happen. Um, but I am kind of on the lookout for certain things and I, we'll come out and admit this, that there are certain things that I'm kind of like, I can't do anymore of this, or we just don't have a space for urban fantasy right now. Rekka:11:49   And some of this is going to be your bias, just to be clear, like you're human and if you are sick of certain kind of story, there's probably a good chance that it's not something that the team as a whole is really open to. Kaelyn:11:55   Yeah. And also it might be, well we just acquired two urban fantasies. I can't do another one right now. We have to change it up, be a little, you know, more diverse in our selections. Um, so that said, you know, I'm going through everything. Um, the Colin method is being applied here. Rekka:12:24   Before we get to that, can I ask? Kaelyn:12:26   Sure. Rekka:12:26   Cause I don't know the answer to this yet. Um, so say you put out a call for military science fiction. Kaelyn:12:31   Yes. Rekka:12:32   Is there anything in your system that indicates that that's in a query so you could like sort filter for the military science fiction? So when you log into our submissions manager and um, I would imagine a lot of places do this. Kaelyn:12:49   You can select which genre you're writing in. Rekka:12:52   Even down to the sub genre? Kaelyn:12:53   Oh yeah, well, I mean, we have, you know, for us, we have a lot of different sub genres you can pick from because you know, we only do, well, that's why I said even because it seems like there's a new one every day, so - Rekka:13:04   I didn't know if it was just, if you've got the basic, um, you know, book code, library codes, you've got custom ones in there. Kaelyn:13:12   Oh, we've got, yeah, we've got some interesting ones. I sometimes I want to go in there and just add things as a joke to see if anything, anyone picks up on it. Yeah. Um, so we, um, you know, I'm, I'm using the Colin Method, which for those of you who. Rekka:13:27   Passed that episode. Kaelyn:13:37   Missed that episode, I know we've run, your first sentence is buying me your first paragraph, your first paragraph's by me, your first page, your first page is buying me your first chapter. Every little bit I read that I like, I'm gonna keep going farther. Rekka:13:41   And back to the start of that, your query buys, the first sentence buys opening the document. Kaelyn:13:45   Yes. Rekka:13:46   And so you do read the queries before you? Kaelyn:13:48   Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Um, and the reason for that is I need to know what I'm getting into when I'm opening the manuscripts to set up an expectation. Rekka:14:02   But also to like an energy sort of allotment. New Speaker:  15:09   I am not just purchasing your book. I am purchasing you as a person and a concept and a brand that sounds illegal. I am purchasing your personality. Rekka:15:21   You are investing in the author. Let's, let's choose some. Kaelyn:15:26   Okay. Rekka:15:27   2019. Kaelyn:15:28   All right. Rekka:15:29   Terminology. Kaelyn:15:29   Well I mean we are buying your book but we're buying into you. Rekka:15:32   Yeah. Kaelyn:15:34   And that you as an author are important as the brand. But also I need to make sure that you're not posting awful things, awful things. I need to like, you know, I think we will get to this more when I get to that, but that part of this, but I need to know about you. There's no such thing as writing a book in a vacuum. Rekka:15:59   Right. So let me ask, so you said that sometimes there are slush readers and sometimes it's just you. So if a slush reader turns away a book, do you ever go, oh wait, I want to look at that before we actually turn it away? Kaelyn:16:23   A lot of times with slush readers, okay. There, the parameters of, you know, them are completely, are different all over the place. Um, I tell them if this seems even a little interesting. Rekka:16:31   Okay. Yup, Yup. Kaelyn:16:32   Yeah. Kick it up. Um, a lot of times for slush readers, like the one we most used them for was when we did our anthology because short stories are easier to do and that was very important for anonymous submissions. One of the other reasons for that is I might send it to someone else. Um, I might send it to editors within our company. Um, we have freelance editors that work with us. Sometimes I might send it to them. So that's why I want to make sure there's no information on there because I just want them to get a manuscript that's come from me that I already said this is cool. Rekka:17:25   Yeah. Kaelyn:17:27   And circulate it to the other. So that's kind of the next step. If you're, if this is something that I'm very interested in, what I'll do is I'll say like, oh, okay, uh, Ryan Kelley, he likes this kind of stuff. I'm going to send this over to him and see if that's something he would be interested in working on. Rekka:17:45   Right. Kaelyn:17:45   Because as the acquisitions editor, I don't get to just you, you're doing this now. Um, editor isn't, you know, Rekka, I'm sure you can attest to this because you've worked with a couple of different editors just at Parvus now they've got to be passionate about the stuff they're working on. Rekka:18:02   Absolutely. Yeah. I would not want an editor who is only mildly interested in my story or not at all. Kaelyn:18:10   Yeah. If you're getting assigned things that's well like, okay for copy, edit the final copy, edit fine, get as many eyes on it as possible and someone can just go through and make sure the commas are in the correct place. Rekka:18:23   But yeah, if I'm working on someone with a developmental edit. Kaelyn:18:27   Yeah, no, they, they need to be passionate and excited about this. So this is where when I said earlier how editors kind of pick what they want to work on, this is where that comes in. So like, you know, let's say for the sake of round numbers, I started out with a hundred submissions. Maybe 10 of them were interesting enough. We're going to take three books. I will send the ones that I think would work best to the editor, I think would work best with them. Rekka:18:56   Right. Kaelyn:18:57   And they'll take a look and decide, okay, well I have room on my calendar for one more book. I want it to be this one. So that sounds like it's the end of the story. But here's the thing, it's not always, and I'm going to stop here because I want to backtrack a bit and say this is assuming an open submissions call and you don't have an agent. Rekka:19:20   Right. That's important to know. Kaelyn:19:22   Yes. We should've said that earlier. Yes. So if you have an agent, what's happening is instead of just going through this open submissions call, your agent is typically directly in touch with either like me and acquisitions editor or editors specifically that they work with and know, and this is when I said that, you know, editors a lot of times pick their own things frequently. it's through relationships with agents that they have or things that people send them directly to them. Rekka:19:50   Yeah. This is why you don't see a lot of open submissions calls at a lot of publishers because the editors have already developed relationships with agents and they're, they're getting their slate filled before they could even consider having an open submissions call. Kaelyn:20:06   Yeah. And a lot of them, a lot of editors will not take unsolicited manuscripts because they just, they'll be inundated. Rekka:20:13   Right. It's a lot of work to go through all these. Kaelyn:20:15   Yeah. So you have an agent that you've worked with before, you trust their, their taste, their um, screening process. Rekka:20:23   You know, you work well together. You know, that if they have an author in their stable, that chances are it's someone you could work with because you know that that author would have to work with this agent. So it's almost like a, it's an endorsement. Yes. It's a patronage, an endorsement sort of thing that, that they can trust you because they know your agent. Kaelyn:20:46   So, that's, you know, that's where a lot of editors are frequently getting it. And that's part of the reason, you know, we talked last week was all about agents and stuff and these mythical creatures, Unicorns, why they're so important. And you know, it's, it's hard to say because we do open submission calls a lot and I like that we do them, but having a literary agent is very good. Yeah. And it's, uh, if nothing else, it's a foot in the door. It's like a little badge you get. I've got a literary agent. Rekka:21:23   Yeah. It's a little more fast track to the front of the line. Yeah. It's, um, it's guaranteeing that there's somebody who's gonna speak for your book, um, more than just your query letter. Kaelyn:21:34   Right. Um, and I mean with Parvus, we've had every book that is released as of when this is coming out. Rekka:21:42   Right. You got to be specific. Kaelyn:21:43   We've gotten through our open submissions call, um, that will change soon. But every single one of our books that we've put out already have come through our open submission call. Rekka:21:54   And that was pretty intentional on Parvus's part. Kaelyn:21:56   Yeah. Um, it, I mean, I like it. I like that we do that. Um, I like that we can find books from people that just wanted to write a good book and submitted it. And we were like, yep, we'll publish that. Rekka:22:09   Which was kind of, I mean, having talked to Colin before in other interviews, that was sort of his entire concept. Kaelyn:22:14   Yeah. Rekka:22:14   For wanting to open a publishing house. Kaelyn:22:16   Exactly. Rekka:22:17   To find the books that are out there that he knew was out there that are great and written by passionate people who love writing. Kaelyn:22:23   Yeah, exactly. So, um, so we found a book by a passionate person who loves writing and - Rekka:22:30   Who is adorable. Kaelyn:22:31   And is adorable. And they found, we have an editor who's really interested in it. So what happens next? Rekka:22:39   You tear that book to shreds. We start over. Kaelyn:22:41   No. Well before that you're probably gonna get a phone call. Rekka:22:44   Oh yeah. Okay. Sorry. I just remember the painful part. Phone call with lots of fun. Kaelyn:22:49   Um, you're probably going to get a phone call from me, but then I need to know about you. I need to make sure that if I go to your Twitter feed, it is not full of horrible misogynistic jokes and pictures. I need to make sure that you're not writing about your favorite ways to torture animals. And yeah, I know we like to think that we write books in a vacuum. We don't, I don't care if you've written the greatest thing in the history of literature. If you're a shitty person, we can't publish that and we're not going to and we don't want to. And maybe some you listening are going, well, shouldn't the book just stand on its own merit? It doesn't. Rekka:23:48   It can't. Kaelyn:23:49   It can't these days. It can't because it's not, we're not simply purchasing your book. We are investing in you as a person, as a brand, as an author. Rekka:23:59   And when they invest in an author, that author's name becomes attached to the company. Kaelyn:24:07   Exactly. And we're small, but even the bigger places, we, no one wants to affiliate themselves with crappy people. Rekka:24:15   And you see this happening a lot, um, problematic or otherwise in social media where somebody spouts off and suddenly they've lost their contract. Kaelyn:24:25   Yeah. Rekka:24:26   And you know, better or worse. I mean, we're not going to comment on different - Kaelyn:24:28   Yeah. That's uh - Rekka:24:29   situations. Some go, some go sideways real fast, you know. Kaelyn:24:33   And that's, that's a whole other thing. But the other part of this is that besides just making sure that, you know, you don't have a secret life, um, you know, with the KKK, I also want to talk to you and get a feel for what I think working with you will be like. Rekka:24:48   Right. Kaelyn:24:49   Because if I get on a phone call with you and oh, it's about time you guys called. I was wondering when I was going to hear from you this, this a 90 day turnaround. I mean, I should have been right at the top of your list. I just called - Rekka:25:07   You just found yourself at the bottom. Kaelyn:25:11   I just called to say, we hope you're having a good day. Bye. Um, you know, I want to kind of get an idea also for what you'd be willing to do with the book because as Rekka said, tear the book to shreds that they've already got ideas. The thing is, before I call you, I've already talked to your editor, who I've already said, hey, so what do you think you're going to want to work with on this? What do you, you know, what's the scale of the changes and revisions you're going to want them to make? Um, so you're probably wondering, why doesn't the editor call me? They might, it depends. It's just, you know, I'm the acquisitions editor. I'm the one who kind of - Rekka:25:48   Spearheads this operation. Kaelyn:25:49   Yeah. And it's just a little more of a streamlined process where, you know, you're going to talk to me first. It's just, just how it goes. Your editor might be on the call with me. Very possible. Um, so once you get past that, then it's, you know, into contract negotiations and I won't go too much into that right now because we're kind of, that's moving out of the submission phase of things. But then that's, I mean that's the end of the story then. Rekka:26:14   Yeah. Kaelyn:26:17   Is the contract. Rekka:26:18   Then you, from the contract. Once that's all complete, it's get to work, you know, you get your revision notes from your editor and you move into the production and then you're done. This is this whole, uh, Submission September thing is behind you. At least for this book. Kaelyn:26:32   Yeah. So, um, that's, that's kind of like, I mean, it's weird to feel like we've come to a hard stop, but like that - Rekka:26:40   That's what happens. It goes off your plate at that point, unless you decide to be the editor yourself. Kaelyn:26:44   You know, it's the submissions process I think in general is, you know, well, how, how do you go through it? Slowly at first and then suddenly all at once. Rekka:26:54   Right? Kaelyn:26:55   It's, it's a lot of hurry up and wait. Rekka:26:57   And then, and then it's everything. Kaelyn:27:02   Things can progress very quickly.Um, so that's kind of where you end up. Uh, we did, you know, I wrote down some things just to, you know, sort of run through some do's and don'ts about this kind of stuff. Rekka:27:12   A couple of questions that, you know, pop up in my mind as I'm listening to you talk. Kaelyn:27:16   Yeah. Um, you know, again, please read the submissions guidelines. I know we talked about this already, but just the fastest way to get your book taken out of consideration is to not do what they ask you to do. Rekka:27:30   Is to display that you think you are above that process or that you don't know how to read. Kaelyn:27:37   And it is so easy to just do this. This is not, this isn't a monumental insurmountable task and no one is going to put submissions guidelines up there that are like now once you have killed to the owl, you must address the letter to us in its blood. Yeah. Rekka:27:55   Although that is a nice additional filter you could use. Kaelyn:27:58   I mean, um, I don't want people killing owls though. Rekka:28:01   I was just going to say as to figure out who is willing to kill an owl and you don't want those authors, but that's sort of backwards. Kaelyn:28:06   Um, I like owls. Rekka:28:07   Yeah. So like I know having gone through the process of submitting things before that it is nerve wracking to think like, am I doing this right? Are they gonna like me? Do I come off as - Kaelyn:28:22   Please like me. Rekka:28:22   Um, do I come off as someone who's, you know, professional, et Cetera. The most professional thing you can do is follow the set of instructions they give you and it makes it a heck of a lot easier to click send on something when you know, like, okay, I have done steps one through five out of five and now I can send to this because I've given them exactly what they asked for. There's nothing left for me to provide here. Kaelyn:28:47   You actually even then touched on something that I think also is overlooked frequently, which is professionalism. So in my company we publish science fiction and fantasy and there's certainly like a tone and attitude a, it's fun that comes along with it. Absolutely feel free, especially in email correspondence to joke around with me because you will frequently get email responses from me that contain ridiculous things. But part of that is I'll cop to it here and now part of that is a ploy on my end that I'm trying to put the person at ease. Like it's cool, like don't. Um, but that said, and when I was on a Rekka's, um - Rekka:29:31   Podcast. Kaelyn:29:31   Previous podcast, Hybrid, Author um, one of the things I pointed out that a lot of people don't think about is your email address. If you have an email address that you've had since like college and what do we call it? SnotMonster27, you know, whatever. Unless your book is about 27 snot monsters, maybe try to come up with one that's like just your name somehow. Um, you know, if you have like some kind of, I won't say ridiculous, but maybe like silly things that are like hold over from your early Reddit days that you know, you still use, it's not a bad idea when you're getting ready to go through this process, one, to have a separate email account to manage all of these things. Rekka:30:14   Right. Kaelyn:30:15   But two, also something just a little more. Rekka:30:18   Grounded? Neutral? Kaelyn:30:19   Yeah. Neutral's good. Just like maybe just your name or maybe you know, RekkaWritesBooks@gmail. Like, you know that you can still be fun with it and you know, but just something to kind of be aware of is, you know, like I got, I get some things some times and people have stuff in their signature that they don't realize is like things you should well, things you should maybe change before you send this to someone you're hoping to work with professionally. Rekka:30:47   Gotcha. Kaelyn:30:48   Um, so just kind of be aware of that and um, all kind of transition this into the next thing, which I think you were touching on, which is emailing and asking questions. Rekka:31:02   Yeah. Kaelyn:31:04   Absolutely do it. If you are unsure of something, I get - Rekka:31:08   I have not seen a submissions page, like the guidelines that don't include an email address for you to ask questions before you submit incorrectly. Kaelyn:31:15   Exactly. And um, I will say sometimes I do get questions where I'm like, did you read the submissions guidelines? But, um, we had a problem with our submissions portal this time, just something clicked off and wasn't supposed to. And I got a whole bunch of emails and we were like, oh shoot, that's a problem. And we fixed it. And I get right back to those people and say, thank you, we fixed it. Rekka:31:39   Yeah, go ahead. Kaelyn:31:40   Now, um, if you have a question about like, you know, listen, I'm not sure this is what you're looking for. I mean, my answer to that is always, I'm not either, send it over. Let's see. You know, I'm never gonna - Rekka:31:51   It is open submissions. Kaelyn:31:52   Yeah. So, yeah. Um, but along those lines and going back to the professionalism, don't start your emails off with Yo. Um, I'm - Rekka:32:04   Kaelyn is from New York. She gets that enough. Kaelyn:32:05   I am frequently taken aback by the crassness of some of the emails that I get that - take the time and write, you know, dear whoever. And you know, like at Parvus you can just write "Dear Hive Mind," and I mean, yeah, you can still be cute about it, but like light about it. This is to whom it may concern or, you know, I, I even get the ones that are like, "Hi, I'm not sure who I'm supposed to be addressing this to", but you know, just - Rekka:32:41   You've tried. Kaelyn:32:42   Yes. Um, Rekka:32:44   Don't lean far into like, I don't even care who this is addressing. Yo. Kaelyn:32:47   Um, I get emails that are just like the, hey, what do I do about this? Like take a minute and say hi, I'm so and so. I'm submitting to your open call. I'm having a problem with this. Be Professional, be considerate, be courteous, be polite. Rekka:33:06   Yeah. Kaelyn:33:07   Because right off that if you don't think I am mentally, I am not mentally making a note of this person and when I get to their submission, because what did I say before when I talked to you, I want an idea of what it's going to be like to work with you. Rekka:33:21   Right. So you've already provided your first clue. Kaelyn:33:25   Everything, every interaction you have with anyone in any professional setting really. But especially if it's something like this, you're, this is all information we're putting away about working with you. Rekka:33:38   This is like showing up to the job interview and you're ripped up sweat pants that you've been wearing for four days. Kaelyn:33:43   Yes. Yeah. So just, you know, be cognizant of that kind of stuff that yes, we're a fun organization. We're cool people we like interacting with and this isn't just Parvus, this is most places. Okay. We don't know you. Rekka:34:01   Yeah. Kaelyn:34:02   Yet. Not yet. So just be aware of that. And first impression first. Rekka:34:08   Yeah. There's a reason your mom and your grandma havetalked about that. Kaelyn:34:11   Yeah. And I know it sounds silly. It's really not. First impressions are very important. Um, so that's, you know, it's kind of the do's and don'ts a little bit, um, with, you know, other stray submissions related things. Rekka:34:27   Right. Kaelyn:34:28   Um, one thing and actually Rekka should be the one to talk about. This is uh organizing who you're submitting to and tracking that is very important, Rekka:34:41   Right. So they're um, depending on how you query, um, well, okay, so acquiring agents, there's a whole system for that. Kaelyn:34:49   Yes. Rekka:34:49   And much like the submissions grinder for short fiction submissions, it will kind of keep track of stuff for you. But this is the day and age where you never know what's going to strike on the Internet. You want to have a local copy that's tracing all this stuff. So I recommend if you can download, um, your submissions history, uh, in some way to like a excel file spreadsheet. Do that. But at the very least maintain your own spreadsheet and say, you know who, what story and if you have a tendency to keep working on stories after you submit them, like what revision, um, then what, you know the date, the publisher and if you like, you can copy paste your query letter into that, the next cell and in excel in the spreadsheet. And then you know what you've said to them last time. So the next time you submit you don't send them the exact same words again. And also, um, you know the, the salutation at the beginning, the little opening warmup, text. Kaelyn:35:55   Make sure you change that for - Rekka:35:56   Make sure that that is not identical with just the names, you've done, you know, find and replace for each, um, each place you submit it to. And then when they acknowledge it, what, um, what follow up conversations you have and the dates and stuff like that, just keep track of it. Because this is stuff you're going to want to refer back to at some point. And if you, um, you know, if you have questions for them, you can write those questions down and the answers and you can just all keep it in one basic like real simple spreadsheet dashboard where you have everything and you can do tabs at the bottom. So each piece, you know, each manuscript you work on has a different tab and, or each publisher has a different tab. Kaelyn:36:39   I think we're gonna have Rekka do some kind of like a youtube instructional video on the best way to do, Rekka:36:46   I don't know if I'm the best one because I don't really have a system I, I queried to Parvus and uh, it was accepted. Kaelyn:36:52   We're going to have you develop a system and um, and along those lines, one thing that I should've brought up earlier, one of the good things to keep track of is if they say expect a response within this time, if not, feel free to follow up.   Rekka:37:07   Yeah. So we've covered that in the previous one. You can even like add a formula to your spreadsheet that calculates the day for you. Like this day, you know from Column D add 90 days and column E displays the day that you sh- you can follow up if you haven't heard. Here's the thing, cause we can't do math in our heads, apparently not. Kaelyn:37:27   If you submit January sixth - 15th and they say 90 days, 90 days is not March 15th I know in that's three months in the calendar in your mind, but 90 days is April 15th ish, whatever it is. The way the, actually that is because of February. So - Rekka:37:45   February makes up for the third one. Kaelyn:37:47   So get out, like if you don't want to do in the spreadsheet, get out a calendar and count out 90 days because 90 days is not three months. Rekka:37:59   Yeah. Kaelyn:38:00   90 days is 90 days. Rekka:38:02   Right. And you can, if you find counting to 90 difficult because of distractions or whatever, or nerves, just Google. What's the date? 90 days from today, Kaelyn:38:15   Because there is, I don't know if this is just a pet peeve of mine, but when I get ones that are like, hi, I submitted 90 days ago and I go and look and I go, no you didn't. You submitted 60 days ago, but thanks. And the ones that I, it's amazing. It's always the people that submitted like the first week and it's like you could not have submitted 90 days ago. We were not open for submissions 90 days ago. And then it puts me in the position of I don't want to write the back and make them feel silly. Like I want like I don't want to have to go 'Actually you submitted 60 days. Like I'll talk to you in a month.'. Rekka:38:48   Yeah. Kaelyn:38:49   Um, so yeah, that's um, that's kind of the, the end of the submissions process is the contract then. So that's also the end of Submissions September. Rekka:39:02   Almost. Kaelyn:39:02   Almost. Cause we have one last uh, one last treat here. Rekka:39:06   Probably be a quick episode I think. Kaelyn:39:07   Very quick. We're actually going to try and keep it at, we keep, we always say we're going to and then we never, yeah. Rekka:39:13   Yeah. Kaelyn:39:13   We've got, we're gonna do one last episode. We are going to really try to keep it short. It's just we did, we got a few questions and we want to kind of round out Submissions September. Rekka:39:25   Yes. And thank you to everyone who did send the questions. If you feel like we skipped over your question, we promise you we didn't. Um, but we can cover it in another episode. Kaelyn:39:34   Yeah. Well, and I mean, who knows, maybe that could turn into an episode. Rekka:39:38   Yeah. I might end up being an entire episode on So-and-so. I'm, we hear you if you sent them. Thank you. And uh, we will get to your questions. Either you'll hear it in the next episode or we will, uh, talk about it in the future. Kaelyn:39:51   Yep. So, um, that's the end of the official episodes of Submissions September we will be back, uh, and I guess we're going to do less than a week because we're gonna yeah, we're going to put that up the last day of September. Rekka:40:04   Just to stick the whole - Kaelyn:40:05   Just to round it out. Yeah, exactly. Rekka:40:08   And then we will have- Kaelyn:40:09   We'll be back to our regular schedule. Rekka:40:12   Yes. Kaelyn:40:12   Of every other week. Rekka:40:13   Yeah. New Speaker:  40:14   So thank you for sticking with us all September. We know this was a lot of listening to us talk Rekka:40:19   Hopefully. It was exciting for you because these are the things that people are always wondering but not necessarily finding answers to. Kaelyn:40:25   Yes. So, um, you know, as always, if you have questions that, you know, after listening to this, you know, send them to us, we'll, we'll still talk about this stuff. It's not like we're never going to talk about submissions ever again. Rekka:40:38   This is it. Kaelyn:40:38   This is exactly everything. Rekka:40:42   Um, so you can find us @WMBcast on Twitter, Instagram, and on Patreon Kaelyn:40:47   And um, thank you. Yeah. Thank you. So we'll, we'll be back in six days now? Rekka:40:52   Yes. Kaelyn:40:52   This time with uh, with questions. So thanks everyone and we'll see you in six days. Speaker 5:       40:58   Thanks.  

Here's our links to some of the studies we refer to.Ethical failings of CPSO policy and the health care consent act: case review.https://bmcmedethics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12910-019-0357-yOutcomes and Cost of Patients With Terminal Cancer Admitted to Acute Care in the Final 2 Weeks of Life: A Retrospective Chart Reviewhttps://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1049909119843285?rfr_dat=cr_pub%3Dpubmed&url_ver=Z39.88-2003&rfr_id=ori%3Arid%3Acrossref.org&journalCode=ajhbResource Optimization Network website: https://www.resourceoptimizationnetwork.com/Follow us on twitter: @KwadcastEpisode transcripts:Kwadwo: 00:01 Welcome to solving healthcare. I'm Kwadwo Kyeremanteng. I'm an ICU and palliative care physician here in Ottawa and the founder of resource optimization network. We are on a mission to transform healthcare in Canada. I'm going to talk with physicians, nurses, administrators, patients and their families because inefficiencies, overwork and overcrowding affects us all. I believe it's time for a better healthcare system that's more cost effective, dignified, and just for everyone involved.Kwadwo: 00:37 For our very first podcast, I'd like to introduce dr Gianni D'Egidio. He is first off, a very good friend of mine who does critical care and general internal medicine at the Ottawa hospital. In this episode we'll talk about the impact of providing inappropriate care to patients and also discuss how to manage conflict in these circumstances. Gianni D'Egidio. Thanks for joining us. My pleasure. Um, first of all, I'd like to thank you for coming, considering that I completely dominated you in an arm wrestle not that long ago in front of many people in Clearwater, Florida. So I'm very grateful for you to be appearing on the show today. Thank you. Well, I see this podcast is going to be full of lies today. All right, we're off with a bang. Okay. So as an intensivist, as a general internist, where do you see the problems in our healthcare system?Kwadwo: 01:36 I would have to say from my perspective, the biggest problem has to do with our lack or inability to correctly have an end of life care discussion or goals of care discussion. Now these terms are going to be interchangeable. Let's just say, uh, the term I'll use is, is proposing an adequate treatment plan to people. Okay. And the reason that is important, uh, is because what it results in is basically what you see right now in our entire healthcare system is a tremendous backlog. Everything is full. Uh, the hospitals are full, longterm care facilities are full. And I think one of the biggest problems we have is an inability to deal with these issues, namely having inappropriate, uh, discussion with substitute decision makers or patients about their overall prognosis and their overall care.Kwadwo: 02:25 So, okay. So that's the problem. And where do you see this bottlenecking? Is this within family practices? Are we doing this within a tertiary care centers? Like where do you see this mostly being a problem?Gianni: 02:38 Tickets from a continuum of starting with family practice? I think it can start there. It is rare that a family physician will have a well-informed, uh, advanced care planning session with their patients. And that then results in potentially, uh, an inappropriate admission to, and then when that admission to hospital comes, now let's take it into the acute phase where there is also probably an either ill informed or inappropriate conversation during the admission process, either through the emergency physician or the admitting physician. And then that progresses to further potential deescalate or excuse me, worsening of the patient in hospital and then results in a intensive care unit admission. Okay. Without giving a co like a exact patients scenario, walk us through exactly like what this could look like. So for instance, let's use one of our studies as an example. Okay. We looked at people presenting to the emergency department who subsequently died in the last, they were basically in the last two weeks of their life.Gianni: 03:45 Uh, these were people with advanced cancers, metastatic cancer who present to the emergency department and subsequently died within two weeks. 71% of those individuals who clearly had end stage disease, 71% of those individuals did not have any discussion regarding end of life or advanced care planning. So there's a typical example of our system of a failure of our system. And this is not to put blame on oncologists or a family physicians or intensivists. This is to say that the vast majority of people or the vast majority of physicians are either uncomfortable with having that discussion or are improperly educated about how to have that discussion. Interesting. So obviously we do the same line of work. We see this problem all the time. And what do you think, you kind of answered the question, but what do you think is the problem? Like if we know it's an issue with addressing goals of care, why isn't it happening?Gianni: 04:45 I would boil it down to two major issues. One is education amongst not only patients and substitute decision makers, but amongst physicians. And the second problem is fear. Um, or uncomfort or whatever you wanna label it as I would label it as fear and on the aspect or on the side of physicians especially that they are fearful of having these conversations, especially when the conversation is going to be fraught with emotion or conflict. So let's get back to 2.1 if I may about education when I, this is just anecdote, when I pull the medical students and residents that are in a lecture and I give many talks on end of life care, advanced care planning or proposing a treatment plan, I pull them on. I ask how many of you have had any education whatsoever in medical school about how to deal with conflict or how to have an appropriate end of life care discussion or advanced care planning discussion.Gianni: 05:43 The vast majority raise their hand and say, we have not had that type of education. If we had had that education, it's only been for an hour or one lecture and that is it. So here are these medical students now residency. And then I asked the residents the same question and again the vast majority lack that education or that formal teaching on it. They say they pick it up from their attendings. Well I've got news for everybody. If your attending is not very good at having that conversation and they are going to be your role model or your source of education for that a topic, I've got news for you, your end of life care discussion or advanced care planning discussions are also going to be quite poor. So education is tremendously lacking and then that results I think in point number two which is fear.Gianni: 06:31 We as physicians I think are, I as mentioned uneducated when it comes to having discussions that results in fear of having the discussions or avoidance of having these discussions. Let's look at the small percentage of conversations or families or substitute decision makers that are quote unquote difficult and we know they're going to be difficult. Physicians are fearful of having those conversations completely fearful and that we'll use the term almost cowardly. Um, when it comes to having those conversations, especially when they substitute decision maker or family member is threatening with a lawsuit or threatening to go to the media or whatever it may be that they're using. Um, physicians will avoid that conversation and if they're not avoiding the conversation, the conversation will basically allow the substitute decision maker to guide the treatment at that point. Like I couldn't agree more. And one of the things that people don't appreciate is the downstream consequences of these lack of conversations.Kwadwo: 07:32 So yes, the patient gets admitted to an inpatient or into the intensive care unit, they get all this treatment, which people don't realize how, how much of a strain it is for the family member, for the patient, for the care team, for, you know, having that moral distress of giving, like providing care to someone that's not going to benefit. So you've been involved in several cases where there's been conflict with the treating team and the family or substitute decision makers. I'm wondering if you could talk about that process a little bit and, and maybe even describe what the experience has been like for the patient. The family, the care team and yourself. So the, for those that are listening that don't know what the consent capacity board is, the consent and capacity board or the CCB is an independent quasi judicial tribunal. I'm appointed by the province to basically adjudicate what is in the best interests of a patient, especially when there is a conflict or dispute between what the treatment team feels is in the patient's best interest compared to what the substitute decision makers feel is in the best interests of their loved one.Gianni: 08:55 Um, Ivan and involved, uh, in six consent and capacity board cases and also been involved indirectly in multiple other cases. And I'll talk about, uh, our study a little bit later on. So regarding the CCB, um, the CCB as mentioned as closer judicial, it's basically a, uh, court like, um, a system or court like, um, process where me as the, uh, treating physician will file an application with a consent capacity board to basically, um, challenge whether or not the substitute decision maker is abiding by the principles of substitute decision making, which is section 21 of the health care consent act. And what that section 21 looks at is as mentioned, the principles of substitute decision making and a substitute decision maker. If I can make one clear point on this podcast today and what I do during my lectures as well, a substitute decision maker is only there to consent to the treatment plan that physicians propose and they have to do so based on number one previously expressed wishes of their loved one and if there's no previously expressed wishes, then they have to act on best interests.Gianni: 10:01 A which considers values and beliefs substitute decision makers are not there to demand therapy, they cannot demand therapy and they are only there to consent. Like I said to the treatment plan that we propose and this goes back to our education and our inability to appropriately propose a treatment plan. So in terms of their demand of therapy, we as physicians are not obliged to offer, propose or initiate any therapy that has not been started or that will not benefit the patient in our opinion. Okay. That's what we forget all the time on our side. Substitute decision makers like me, like I mentioned have to act on previously expressed wishes and if not best interest and the consent capacity board will basically adjudicate, um, solely based on law and solely based on the section 21 of the health care consent act. So I filed a six applications.Gianni: 10:59 I've been involved in five consent and capacity board hearings. Um, they are the consent capacity board. I guess the pearls of the consent and capacity board are that it is heard more end of life cases than any other court's combined in Canada. It is supposed to be rapid in the sense that once I file an application you're supposed to hear, there's supposed to be a pre hearing within one week of filing of that application and it's supposed to be much faster than the court system. Ideally you're having a pre hearing within a week and then ideally you're having the hearings within a month or two. Unfortunately that has been changing over time and I'll get into that maybe a little bit later on. So getting back to the pro, it's supposed to be fast. And more importantly when the hearing is done, you get your reasons for decision within 24 hours, which is unheard of compared to any other court Lake system.Gianni: 11:49 Um, the cons of the consent capacity are that the decision is solely based on law. It does not factor in the ethics, the opportunity costs, the medical standard of care or whatever else physicians would deem important. When it comes to proposing a treatment plan or it comes to the care of a patient, it's solely based on, like I said again this subsection 21 of the health care consent act. Um, my experience with the CCB has been mixed. I would say, um, lately the from filing of application to decision has been three to four months, which albeit is still faster than the court system. However, it is still, uh, quite arduous in terms of the amount of preparation that requires and the amount of time in spent in hearings. So the latest case that I've done, basically it was a seven day process, uh, not to mention the multiple pre hearings beforehand.Gianni: 12:47 So it can be quite labor intensive. And the reason I mention all this is because the vast majority of physicians will not proceed with a consent capacity board case. Um, I have done six, I know of in Ottawa at least, there's only been basically two other physicians who have filed a form G application, which deals with end of life care issues at the consent capacity board level. Um, so the vast majority of physicians will avoid it. And another factor is even if the reasons of decision, um, I hate to use a term but are favorable for the physician, let's say they find that the consent capacity or the, excuse me, that the substitute decision makers have not acted in the best interest of their loved ones that can be appealed. And then the appeal process will take another five to six months. And, uh, only adding to the workload and time for said physician involved.Gianni: 13:37 In that case, not only is there the workload or the never ending aspect of the consent capacity board cases, but it can also potentially result in litigation. So you can understand why the vast majority of physicians will not want to pursue this Avenue. Then getting into your point about the effect it has on families, a more substitute decision makers. While you can say goodbye to the therapeutic relationship that's essentially over, once you file that form G application or start mentioning courts and lawyers and whatever else. So the therapeutic relationship completely breaks down there is going to be most likely an associated costs for the substitute decision maker because they will have to retain legal counsel. If they can afford legal counsel then great. Yes they will. They will have to basically a fork out their own money for that process. If they can't afford it then they can get legal representation through legal aid.Gianni: 14:29 Um, so you have not only the financial burden for substitute decision makers, you have the therapeutic relationship breaking down and there is no doubt is a stressful for substitute decision makers as well. Right. Going through court is not a fun process for anyone involved. So you got into the technical aspect which fine, but like why are you doing it? Like are you seeing that is driving you to want to go through this process? Like give us a sense of what a patient is going through at the time where you, you, you decide I'm going to go through this process again, this comes at um, you have to remember that consent capacity board cases are open to the public and the reasons for decision are available to everyone. So what I am disclosing, I'm not disclosing any personal health information or anything like that and I have written about this.Gianni: 15:22 I have also used these experiences in the consent capacity board but that there is no doubt in my mind and no doubt, um, in the eyes of any of the healthcare team involved that the patient is absolutely suffering. And I will use extreme examples from cases, um, where basically there are profound ulcerations of the skin because of immobility and despite how good our nurses and our healthcare team is with moving patients, repositioning them, whatever else. Those are absolutely unavoidable. In these situations, you are dealing with an individual who is completely basically comatose who is now in one case was on months and months of vasopressin. I've got news for people. If you put someone on months of vasal pressers, you are basically, their skin has zero flow, it will have very, very poor blood flow. You combine that with pressure and the next step is profound ulceration to the point of sloughing of skin in multiple areas.Gianni: 16:25 And in one instance basically a complete degloving of a scalp from simple, um, bedside combing of the hair, um, that has happened, that has been documented. Um, and the same process will happen with any indwelling tube, uh, and breakdown. So for instance, rectal tubes, rectal tubes will result in the complete destruction of the rectum if it is unbelievable to see what will happen to these individuals. Um, so first and foremost it comes down to the suffering of a patient. And second, it comes down to just the injustice and uh, ethical dilemma that it presents to physicians. And that results in me basically bottom line, full disclosure being absolutely angry about the entire process. I could feel the anger in the room right now. But yeah, I gotta say I've seen you in and around a couple of cases and this is not easy getting back to like the reasons to do this. So I couldn't agree more that the cases that we see in the ICU have these prolonged uh, treatments where the patients aren't benefiting and it's been driven by the families, the amount of sufferings, insane. And one thing that goes under appreciated is the work our nurses are a allied health team members go through to to provide care. Like I'll never, when I was a fellow,Kwadwo: 17:50 we were rounding on one of these patients that weren't going anywhere and the nurse was crying in the corner, like trying to hide that she was getting emotional. I'm like what's the matter? Like what's going on? And she's like, every time I walk into that room I feel like I'm torturing that patient. I'm like 12 hours of torturing this poor guy. And it was actually a huge epiphany for me because like when we get involved, we're involved for like five to 15 minutes, right? To do our assessments or whatnot and they're at the bedside for 12 hours doing this. You know, it comes down to for me, you know, in terms of the justice point of view, like people don't realize also about the financial burden that is being put into this. Like into cases that people aren't benefiting in. You know, 1% of your gross domestic product goes into treating people in the ICU.Kwadwo: 18:51 A reasonable percentage of these, those people aren't benefiting. And we need to think about some of the opportunity costs. A colleague of ours, Michael Harwich, he was talking to us about his kid who has a, I think there's a breakfast program at his school where they, for underprivileged kids, they provide food for, uh, to ensure that they get nourished and they had to cut the program cause they were short money. And I'm like, this is insane. We are flogging some people that would never want cake, would never want treatment and we can't feed kids like, you know, get all that is.Gianni: 19:30 So let's, let's, that's a perfect segue into the next study that, uh, I or we are doing and will be presented at the Canadian critical care forum. Uh, in November there were 12 patients. Uh, let's, this is a case series of 12 patients that I've been directly involved in. And just off the top of my head, picked 12 patients that have been these, let's say drastic cases or extreme cases, but these 12 patients had a median age of 83 years old. They were meeting median age of all 83.5. So let's round up to 84. Let's just do that. Fair enough. They had an average length of stay in hospital of 263 days. Okay. That is absolutely I think incredible. And their average ICU length of state was 109 days. All 12 of these patients died. All 12 of these patients had extreme cognitive impairment, either the vast majority through dementia.Gianni: 20:25 And three, if I remember off the top of my head, three out of the 12 cases due to a severe interest cerebral, um, incident. Um, so as mentioned, all of these folks, unfortunately, well I should say all of these patients, I shouldn't use the term folks. All of these patients pass away the average cost of these 12 patients to our system, not including physician costs or any other, these are just indirect and direct costs. Nearly $8 million for these 12 patients. One patient spent 704 days in hospital. Now you cannot tell me that this is a wise use of our resources when we talk about opportunity costs. Now let's talk about the things this study didn't capture. Multiple nurses have quit and I know that directly, uh, multiple nurses have sought sick leave because of this. Um, we have had, um, there, there has been a tremendous um, decrease in the sort of wellbeing of our health care team.Gianni: 21:26 When these cases happen or even after the fact, you could feel it. Yes, yeah. Yes. And it has scarred certain individuals, scarred individuals to the point where they have quit. They have left their position. And these are not junior nurses. These are nurses in mid career who have decided I have seen enough. This is this case in particular has pushed me over the edge. I will not, I will no longer be an intensive care unit nurse. And you know what's insane? It's like their whole mantra of their whole job is to like, I want to make people better. I want to help heal people. I want to help them get their function back and they get shat on to get verbally abused. They get inundated with all this. They have the moral distress and they often feel powerless. Yes. You know what I mean? And it's like we need to do some shit about this.Gianni: 22:20 So this is, this brings us into another part of the bigger problem, which is as physicians in a healthcare team, besides the roots of the consent capacity board, the odds are stacked against the healthcare team right now. And if I may use the analogy of, of the pendulum, the pendulum has swung far too much towards the principle of autonomy. And I will refer people to the study that we recently published as well about the ethical failings of the end of life care or CPSO end of life care policy. And the health care consent act, which are completely favoring autonomy and they completely disregard other ethical principles such as distributive judge justice, non-maleficence and beneficent, excuse me. Um, and the reason that is our policies and law are completely stacked against um, those ethical principles and completely favor autonomy. For instance, the CPSO end of life care policy, which basically just to summarize, basically says you need consent not to perform CPR.Gianni: 23:22 This is the only treatment that I am aware of that has ever been or deemed by the college or any, uh, professional body to be uh, universally indicated in everyone. And as I point out, again, when I lecture my med students and residents, there is no treatment that is universally indicated in any one. I use the simple things like water and oxygen. Oxygen is not universally indicated and everyone, in fact, oxygen can be harmful when not indicated. Water is not universally indicated in everyone. For instance, in the hyponatremic patient, there is no way that CPR is universally indicated in every single individual. They are going to be clear cases where CPR will never benefit in an individual and should not be offered. I mean you and I both know how insane that that statement was. Like just to be clear for the listener, like you could have a patient with end stage cancer.Kwadwo: 24:13 You have a patient that is having end stage renal function. I, he needs dialysis and the treatment, the treating team says like this patient is not a, uh, is not a candidate for further chemo. They're not a candidate for further dialysis. They're not tolerating it. This ruling would still say that if they die you would need consent not to do CPR. Correct. Which is insane. Now, one of the things we as physicians, and this gets back to again, the uh, topic that I've been focusing in on is our proposal of treatment plans is very poor. And as I mentioned earlier, we do not need to offer any treatment or propose any treatment or begin any treatment that has not already been initiated or that's not going to be beneficial to an individual. However, that requires that the entire treatment team be on the same page.Gianni: 25:06 And you have to remember our healthcare system or the way we operate in intensive care unit, I don't want to call it fragmented, but we have a most responsible physician or attending physician every week. Right. And to get consensus for let's say 20 individuals, 20 physicians who are going to be looking after this patient, there's going to be a different level of comfort amongst those attending physicians about what they're gonna offer and not offer for fear of reprimand because of a lawsuit, a college complaint or whatever else it may be. Even though said physician completely agrees that this treatment should not be offered, but they are fearful of the consequences of saying I am not going to offer dialysis. I am not going to offer peg tube feeding. But they are fearful of the consequences of that. I mean is because of the process. Like just to be the devil, the process.Kwadwo: 25:52 Once you get a complaint, you get named in a lawsuit. That's years of your life. Yes. You know what I'm saying? And, um, so there is a lot of unfortunate the deterrent to be able to stand up and do what's right. But I think at the end of the day, all of us gotta look ourselves in the mirror, yo. And full disclosure, I have had a college of physicians and surgeons complaint, um, which took 15 months to basically resolve. I have had complaints to the chief of staff of the hospital to the CEO of the hospital, to my member of parliament as well. So these are, and I'm willing to deal with those. Uh, but again, I don't, I can't blame my colleagues for saying I don't want any of that. Especially if there is something else going on in their life that has providing them stress in their personal life or their academic career, whatever it may be. Right. They're going to completely avoid that. And part of me can't blame them.

James: Hey listeners, this is James Kandasamy from Achieve Wealth podcasts, a podcast where we focus on commercial real estate operators across all asset classes. And we like to talk a lot about value at real estate investing. Today, I have Will Crozier from Cap X Ventures who started in multifamily investing starting 2012 and went up to like 7,000 units, almost 350 million in assets under management. Right now, I think he has sold a lot of his assets and he has like a thousand units right now in the Dallas area. Hey Will, welcome to the show.  Will: Hey, James, awesome to be here. Thank you for inviting me.  James: Good. Is there anything that you want to elaborate on your past history and ventures in real estate? Will: I guess, I did about 10 years, single-family just grinding away and then moved from California out to Texas to the DFW area, wanting to do more of the same but quickly realized deal sizes were too small in DFW house. To flip a house out there was 60,000 and I was used to doing a $600,000 houses, so I was going the wrong way around. I looked around and said I need bigger deal sizes so I moved into apartments in a hurry, plugged in with some good people and started my multifamily career about seven years ago. We grew as quickly as we could, partnered up with people, raise capital to syndicate deals and just tried our best to do heavy value-add deals wherever possible. The uglier, the better, basically. James: I love that concept, right? That's where the deep value-add comes in. And I used to do a lot of deep value-adds even though now I'm doing a lot lighter value-add just because of the market cycle. And I know you do very, very heavy, deep value-add and you've started doing larger units. So talk about what are the deep value-add that you have done? One of the largest deep value-add that you have done. Will: I did a project, it was 656 units, just a single property alone, drove that one down into the 70% occupancy range. That was not an extremely heavy value add, it was mostly interior innovations but it was the largest one as far as heavy, heavy like, you know, a war zone type properties that a couple of 200 and 400 units that were just ugly. Even drop those down, purchased at 50% occupancy and pushed it down into the high twenties. I mean, just clean up. It was basically a brand new project when we were done with it but turn the neighborhood around in a major way too.  James: Yeah, I think that's where you make the most money, right? I mean, it's always a real estate. Any invest, at least we walked a game and you took a big risk in that kind of deal. I'm sure that reward also must have been tremendous because there's so much of equity built up, right? That's where the deep value-add or even the value add comes into play. That's where the wealth is created. So tell me about why do you like deep value adds versus the lighter call or yield place?  Will: Sure. Well, when I started in multifamily, I had a little money, a couple hundred thousand dollars but it was nothing to really, really brag about, I couldn't retire on it. I couldn't invest it at 10% interest and have it changed my life at all so I had no choice but to really do big game projects. I needed to really change my game. To change my outlook on life to set myself up and so I could go and invest and make 7% or 9% and I was just like, that's not the station I'm in life. I was raised poor, I didn't come in from a lot of money. I needed to just shift my whole reality. So I only focused on deals where I could make a 100% return or a 200% return. And yeah, there are lots of people's money together and just go, go, go. And so I did that serial 10 31, 10 31, 10 31, and then, other projects around it, I flipped them. I mean, I was in and out of some deals in 13 months, 17 months; just get in there and go hard. Usually, it was about a two-year thing where if you double your money and then double that money again and then double that money again, you start to see the multiplication effect, just go crazy. So I went from almost nothing to a good sum of cash through doing these heavy value add deals.   And you mentioned something that everyone looks at this differently, but risk-reward, I always looked at my deals as not risky because they were in terrible condition. They were rundown, there was no one living in them. So there was really nothing I could do to make the situation worse. Whereas the yield deals, you know, they're really skinny, they're really tight. You jump in there and you make a few missteps and you can drop from 93% to 83% in a hurry. And the way the debt set up, like to me that seemed risky, at least at the time. There are a million ways to look at it, but for me, it's like there's nothing I'm going to do to mess this deal up more. And there were 15 other people bidding on it so I can get out of it if I need to and it's a bridge loan. So to me, at the time it just seemed not risky. It's strange.  James: You are right actually. I mean sometimes people just look at cash flow. They don't really look at the debt service coverage, right? Because on a yield play or Copley, your debt service coverage is so thin, you've got no way to increase your NOI. So let's say you're buying at 1.25, if you're not doing anything, you're just going to service that debt at 1.25 maybe slightly more because the market appreciates to 1.3; whereas on a deep value-add play, you may be buying it less than one DSCR but you are pushing up the NOIs so much to 1.5, 2 X. So in case the market turns, you're not going to come back to one, you've got so much a buffer to play. Will: Right. We start cash flowing it 70% occupancy and it's going and going. And so everywhere you go from there, it's really, really nice. James: Yeah. I mean it's a bit hard for me to do yield place, just because I see it as a risk as well because there's just no buffer there. Question for you--so can you hear me?  Will: Yeah, I can. Will: Because you sound to be so quiet. So, I mean, you went up to like zero in 2012 in multifamily and went up to 7,000 units. You did so many 10 31 and you started selling a lot of it. Right? So when did you start selling a lot of your deals? Will: Well, it became a bit obvious to me writing on the wall, but the tide was no longer with us. You know, the winds weren't at the back anymore. There's still deals to be done. There's always deals to be done. But it wasn't this situation or set up where no matter what I do, I'm going to make lots of money. The heavy value- add deals started getting super rare, hard to get into them. The interest rates started ticking up and that's eroding the value of my property when I'm not doing anything wrong, but I'm watching millions of dollars just get wiped off of the table just because of interest rates, you know? And that goes up and down but that was another indicator. The county started playing ridiculously hard with the taxes and that was another thing. It was just like, I'm watching millions of dollars just disappear and I'm not doing anything wrong.  You know, I'm just this part of the business cycle and its part of the politics of the game. So when I saw some of those things, easing and changing and the rapid competition, especially in DFW, from not only coastal buyers but international buyers, we're selling to people in Dubai, UAE, et cetera. So it's just like this is a really different game than what I entered in '12. And so when I entered in '12, I was always all in, just anything I had pushed it in, tell everybody, put your money in this thing, it's going to go, go, go. When I couldn't be that aggressive anymore, it made me start to just to look around a little bit, what are my options in life? I had accumulated big pilot ships and I don't need to do this anymore. I can easily retire and not do anything for the rest of my life and my kids could share that as well.  So I have to really stop and look at my life; what is it that I want to do? What is my risk tolerance? Am I gonna bust my ass really competing for trying to get 7% return? Or maybe find a way to eke out a 10% return. Or for me, it's just hit pause or at least dial it way back, look at my life, what makes me happy? What do I want to do with myself? Let the market settle down a little bit, let it choose a new direction and then decide, do I want to jump back in with this, push everything back in again or figure out a different strategy? So right now, I'm just kind of observing, taking it all in. If a good deal comes my way, I jump on it. I closed the deal a month ago in Abilene, another 120 unit value-add deals. So I'll grab them, but I'm not gonna run around chasing my tail, trying and forcing to put it together when I don't need to.  James: Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy out there right now. Right? I mean, you can do deals in a good market, in a bad market. The acceleration of how much you want to buy on a market cycle like this, maybe slow down. I mean you have to just think about it, whether it's a real deal or not. I think there's just so many people jumping into the game as well, I guess. Prices are being bumped up so much and they are value-add deals, they are deep value-add deals, but a lot of sellers are asking for crazy prices, which means that deep value-add becomes like a yield play.  Will: Yeah, it really is. They're charging you the premium to do all the work.  James: A lot of people are jumping saying, hey, it's a deep value-add or deep value-add but it's actually not value-add.  Will: We were buying it at 13 a door, you know, going crazy and the same deals are trading for 80 and 90 and they're in worse condition than, I don't know, it's just nuts. They're still deals, but frankly, I don't want to dedicate the 80 hours a week that I used to when I don't need to in this market cycle. Like that doesn't make sense for me personally to pursue that right now at least. At least with full dedication.  James: Got it. So are you still positive on multifamily or any other asset classes?  Will: Well, as I said, I purchased last month in Abilene. I'm basically kind of a sponsor in the deal. I raised equity for the deal. I underwrote the deal, I connected it, but I'm more happy to be working with sort of the next generation of deal sponsors, syndicator. If they have holes like equity gaps, I can plug that. If they have some experience things or they're not sure of a specific market, like I was already operating 500 units in Abilene so it's like throw this on there, same management company, it's just stamp, stamp, stamp, repeat. So if there are new deal sponsors who want to want to partner up and follow a similar pattern to what I've already established, that's where I can really add value to another team. I don't want to be out there every day. I don't want to live on site like I used to live on site. I'm just past all that, but I can still work with other people and make win, win, wins across the board.  James: Got It, got it. Got It. Let's go into details of what are some of the deep value-adds that you have done. Not really a specific deal, but when you look at the deal, how do you identify this is the deal for me, I want to really do this deal. What do you look for in that? Will: Well, the dream is, of course, the neighborhood. I'm less interested in the specific property than I am, 'can I invest millions of dollars in this neighborhood and have it mean something?' Have it attract the kind of people that will pay their rent, that won't bring crime, that will be a nice safe, habitable place for people with jobs want to live. So I'd always look at the neighborhood and just blue collars, great. If there are work trucks out there in the parking lot, I'm super excited about that. Of course, then property specific things, love of course pitch roofs or individual HVAC. I'm one of the weird guys that love all bills paid. I made more money on those deals than others; it's a hassle but there's money to be made there for sure. What else? Price Point says a lot. The right price point, jump in there and sometimes that's a really, really high price point versus other neighborhoods, but it's still just comparatively low. I love rundown interior units. We got really, really good at renovating interiors and doing it on the cheap. I imported all my stuff from China. I built a company around that, sold that company last year. But we could do an interior better and cheaper than almost anyone could. And that's how you raise rents. And that's how you get the NOI bumps and that's how you make a mini fortune on every deal you do. So those were sort of the criteria I was looking for.  James: Okay. Okay. I want to go a bit more into the underwriting, but before I do that, why do you like all bills paid? Will: Well, I always feel weird, is the SCC watching me, like lying sometimes, but you kind of get to act like a utility broker in a way, a middleman, so to speak. Where I can buy energy for 6 cents a kilowatt hour and I ended up basically selling it for 12 or whatever and I don't remember the specifics on that. And then they love it because they're not having to put these big deposits and run credit checks and all this stuff. So I get a buffer that makes it really, really simple for them, giving them a cheaper rate than they would be able to get even on their own. So again, it's kind of paving a win, win, win and I'm pulling in more cash each month. I'm kind of controlling their major expenditures, which is going to be their rents, it's going to be their utilities. And so, I kind of get to babysit a little bit. I hesitate to use that word. But if you have the right management team working with them, it's just a bigger rent check coming into you each month so your income is greater and when you go to sell the thing, you realize those gains. James: Yeah. And I think you can use your skills to relate the real utility bills, right? I mean, you can do local pilots and all that, which the upside, you get it right.  Will: Yeah, absolutely.  James: Got It. Got It. So let's talk about underwriting. So when you underwrite a deep value-add deal, what do you really look for? Do you just look for really, really low rent, you know, expenses? Or what else do you look for? I mean, let's talk about that. Will: I've never been one to super focus on expenses. Yeah. Expenses matter but they're generally going to be in the right ballpark unless you spot the obvious, water conservation thing or whatever. I always like to focus on income. Income is a lot easier to control than expenses. So you know, look at the submarket, do your market survey, see are you low and why are you low? Are there other factors besides just you have a terrible interior and amenities package? Just chew that up, underwrite that, you know but otherwise, just to figure out why you're low, see if you can plug that gap in that. I was never shy about leading the market. I would like to be a hundred under and come out a hundred over, you know, and I wasn't shy about getting it because we had a nice product and we always had a great management team. So that was probably my number one criteria is just making sure I'm getting something that I can really push and accelerate rents on. That was a lot easier before. James: Okay. Okay. So definitely income is a lot easier to control, where you can just increase the rent compared to the expenses. I know you do a lot of major rehabs, which needs a lot of materials and all that. So what triggered you to go and start importing materials, to reduce your cost in terms of expenses? Will: I did the first deal without any imports. I learned quickly, that was just like 77 units. But even on something that small, I had a hard time controlling the logistics supply chain. I would deal with AZ Parts Master Nationwide MRO, Lowe's, Home Depot, whoever and they would start delivering me different products as like keep trying to order the same thing. They would change the light fixture or the fan. And then one week it's $45 and the next week it's $62 and this was very, very frustrating. And my projects, I want it to be very uniform, very beautiful, started looking like patchwork quilts. And this one looks like this and this one looks like this and this was on a small deal. So the next time around, I bought 244 units and it was half occupied and I was like, well, I'm going to need about 300,000 square feet of flooring on this deal.  I had one of my partners was a Chinese national and she'd done imports for her own business. She's like, let's get on a plane, let's go. So I was like, okay, let's give it a try. And so flew over there and got overwhelmed in a hurry and made a few bad missteps early on, but corrected and adjusted and moved from flooring into anything else we needed massive quantities of. I remember my 1st container, 40 foot high Q container of fans came in, I think it was like 1400 fans. I'm like, what am I gonna do with this? And then before long, they were coming in monthly. And it was a wild run there for a while, to go from one of my one-bedroom units, I had a down unit and I just shoved stuff from Home Depot and Lowe's into it, to having a warehouse and then buying and renting the warehouse next to that and then two more next to that and buying, you know, medium duty trucks and forklifts. I'm like, what am I doing? But it all just made sense for my own projects and therefore it made sense for other people's projects. And that's I think a good foundation for any business is to solve issues and then let other people take advantage of the job you've done there. James: Yeah. Yeah. I would like to make sure that the listeners know, I mean the amount of hard work that I'm sure really have put in to do all that largest things, is huge. Right? So, it's not simple, but the thing is if you do it, you will get the benefit out of it. And I think when you really want to make a lot of money in real estate, that's the extent that you have to go to because that's where you really make the money when you go to integrate your supply chain. And you hop on a plane and go and solve problems. Will: Your right, James, and thank you for clarifying that. Like it's easy to sit here in a podcast years after the fact and make it seem like it was somehow easy or it didn't take that much. It literally was 80 hours a week. Holidays, weekends. I moved into my projects to really watch them because every penny of my net worth was in these projects. I was controlling tens of millions of dollars of assets and yet I was living on like 2100 bucks a month. That's me, my wife, my kids, couldn't afford anything. I was a paper millionaire and then a paper multimillionaire and yet I couldn't pay for anything and I was deeply in credit card debt, just trying to keep everything afloat. It's humorous to me when people come in and say, I want to do what you do, but they're like a doctor and they're used to like pulling down 400 g's a year and there's like, you probably should just be a passive investor. Forget all about what I'm doing because it's not really going to mesh. You're going to be in poverty for the first four years you're doing this thing.  James: Yeah. I remember when I did my second deal, we did like almost one and a half a million dollars. We did it within one year. And I think that whole idea is you're trying to convert all that capital that you have in your cash for Rehab, you're trying to convert it to NOI. So once it becomes NOI, that's equity. Now the building is much more valuable. So you're basically adding all this sweat equity, your ideas, your business tactic, all this into a NOI. And how skillful you are converting this whole thing into the NOI is where the skill gaps. Will: Yeah. And then if you're really good, you're tempted into a 10 31 exchange so you don't realize any of the equity. And then you go ahead and do it again and you're like, I promise I have some money somewhere [21:37crosstalk]  James: Yeah. I like to refi and take out that money. I least I want to quickly do it, refi it, take out, okay, now I see some cash, cash flow, right? Will: And the taxes are a little nicer in that scenario.  James: Yeah. There's no tax on a refi, right. Even on 1031, yeah, you defer the taxes, but this all tax strategy and the amount of NOI that you created to take out your equity. So of all the deep value that you did, what do you think is the most valuable value-add? Will: What do you mean by that, James?  James: Like for example, let's say you have $1 million to do a project, right? But that million dollars become like 300,000. So what would you go in and focus first? Interior. Exterior. And if it's interior, what would you focus? If it's exterior, what would you focus? Because now you have a reduced budget, right? What do you think is the most important value add? Will: I hate exteriors, they have to be done, but you very, very rarely see any kind of rent increase on exteriors. It's more of a cohesive theme of the property that will give you a rent bump on the exterior, but you can throw millions and millions at roofs, parking lot, siding, like retaining, landscaping, that's going to give you tiny returns as far as NOI. So, of course, I loved the interiors. Flooring is like magic. You put in a new floor and people are immediately amazed by it. I love to put in hard surface flooring. I hate carpet. So I mean, just put in the hard surface flooring, it's easy to turn, it's easy to keep clean. It's a fantastic product. So floors are huge. Appliances, I always bet big on appliances. I almost always went to stainless steel, nice packages; once in a while, I would just make it all black or whatever. But appliances and flooring get you a long, long way on interior renovations. So that's the first thing on all of my budgets. James: Got It. So appliance and flooring. Okay. Interesting. So let's go to the personal side of it. Right? So you sold a lot of your assets and you said you don't think so, I mean the odds are on your side right now in terms of market and you want to take it slowly. If you find the right deal, you would go ahead and do it. But why did you move out of the country? I mean from Dallas to the Philippines.  Will: Could have come somewhere a little closer. Right. So just a little background on that. And when I was traveling to China a lot, I really fell in love with travel and I really also fell in love with Asia. My wife is from the Philippines, so I have a direct family connection here. Spending time over here, I enjoyed it. The speed of life is totally different than the US, it's just in slow Mo. That can be infuriating sometimes, you are like, what's wrong with this place? But it's all those things that are wrong that make it so great at the same time. So I try to just accept it, be patient with it, but also got plugged in with a couple of foundations. One that I'm starting, one that I am a currently a board member on and support in any way I can. It's children's surgical outreaches that for some reason is so rewarding to me. Like I'll just do it until I die. If no one else wants to participate, I don't care. But to see how far a US dollar can go and changing someone in the third world's entire life, entire future. Like what we'll spend on an average dinner out, we'll change the entire outlook of one child's life through one simple surgery that takes basically an afternoon. That blew my mind and it made me reevaluate my own expenses, my own material desires in life.  I just sold my house in Texas. A big stupid, huge, ugly, gorgeous house, and then my cars and all that stupid stuff that I love so much, but just change the focus, you know, and tried to move into something a bit more humble and easy, lower expense so I can divert funds to some of this other stuff that's just so much more rewarding at the end of the day.  James: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm from Southeast Asia, I'm from Malaysia. Right. So I know a lot of these lifestyles there even though I don't think my lifestyle was slow. It was really fast as well, but it's just a different perspective in life. Did any of these travels and living in the Philippines or even traveling, do you think it changed any of your perspective towards money? Will: Oh, yes, absolutely. I noticed first, right away when I started traveling a lot internationally, besides just having a hotel to stay in or food to buy, I didn't really ever think about money. It was just weird. Like when I was bored in the US and I was kind of building my empire, If I got bored, bored maybe, if I had free moments ever, I would go on Zillow or I would go on cars.com and I would just browse for whatever the next kind of toy was, the next car. Like, look, what's that house in that neighborhood. There's a beautiful neighborhood, I would love to live there, someday. And it was all just sort of focus on the material, a focus on improving the lifestyle, basically. And when I was traveling, I just never really thought that way and when that started clicking in my head, I was like, I'm really happy when I'm traveling and I'm not focused on really the material at all. It's more learning, experiencing things. It all got cheaper. That was one of the weird things was this much happier, more fulfilling lifestyle was way, way, way, way cheaper than the less satisfying, less happy lifestyle. So that was a big Aha moment for me. James: Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, sometimes you look at people who are really poor or living in a very small house or hut, you know, in a poor country, they are very happy compared to some people who live in a very big house with a lot of money. I mean, there's so much commitment, so many issues. You have to make a lot of life choices or you may not be happy, but people who have fewer things, maybe they make fewer choices and they're much happier, right? I mean, end of the day, why do we make money? So to supposedly supposed to be happy, right. So it's just so much of a difference in perspective when you're traveling to that kind of places and you experience different lifestyles. Will: I've heard always that thing where it's just cliche almost in the US and I'm sure you've heard it, where people talk about the people that have nothing. And as an American, when someone says they have nothing, basically that means like they drive a 10-year-old car, either their house is less than 2000 square feet. That's what having nothing meant to m,e until I met people who literally don't have anything. They are living under a leaf house, built out of bamboo and you know, they find an old water bottle to go and haul water from the stream to where they're living that month. And it was okay. They actually have nothing and yet, as you said, at the time they're having the smile on their face and the relaxed nature of it all. And poverty is horrible, it's a terrible thing, especially for health. That's what you watch just get destroyed as people who are aging with diseases but outside of the health, everything else to me seems like they're having a better living existence than most anybody I know in the first world. James: Yeah. It's a completely different perspective when you start to travel, right? And I see people here, sometimes they complain the country is bad. Oh, this is bad. That is not right. This is not right. Well, you have never seen the other part of the world. So it's just surprising for me on when people just don't have that 360 perspectives of how the whole life is. I mean I'm not saying that I have when you have it, but you know when you travel and you go really live in another country, you can see a lot more things which you are not able to see when you are living here in the US. There are so many things that have been taken for granted here.  Will: The opportunities in the US are insane, the low cost. Americans think US is expensive. That is ridiculous. The price of cars and of electronics and of anything and the wide availability of anything you want, it's all cheap and it's quality and it's a variety. And you come in most countries and cars costs double like a BMW in the Philippines or in Thailand or anywhere over here, it costs double what it costs in the US. And it's like the cheaper model and it's pretty crazy. James: Yeah. When I was living overseas in Malaysia, I can never afford a luxury car, have to buy a local car. And even that was really good already. So because everything else was expensive just because the governments like to tax the in parts of the car. And also your pay scale really doesn't jive with the cost of living. Here, the pay scale does compensate for your cost of living. So things are much cheaper here in the US. Will: Yeah. In China, it blew my mind. You have maybe lower level management positions and hotels or restaurants or whatever and you find out that they're earning $400 a month and yet that's what rent costs. Rent is exactly what their income is. And you're like, how does this even work? Like, I don't understand the economics and you go visit one of these homes and you realize there are six people in a really, really tiny one bedroom, you know, 400, 500 square feet and it's not comfortable and it's not nice.  We're were very, very lucky as Americans. My wife just became a citizen last month and a smile on her face to have that blue passport. To enter another country with an American passport is a whole different experience than with our Philippine passport where anywhere you go you need a visa. And getting that visa is not like applying online. It's tax returns. It's like bank statements. It's like health records, shots of full travel itinerary of where you're going when you're going to be there. Like it was just a mess. We're spoiled as Americans. James:  Absolutely. Absolutely. So can you name a few things that you think is the secret success, any secret sauces that you think that you want to share with the listeners? Will: Yeah, I could share a few things that have hugely improved my performance as a businessman, as an entrepreneur, the short cuts per se. Partnering has been huge for me. It's not for everybody, but it's for most people, especially when you're dealing with something like multifamily. I'm by far not the smartest person around, I'm the kind of a simple-minded guy. I don't even have that many skills. I just have the determination to make sure I'm getting deals done to land the deals, to execute. I'm a doer, but I've had to really surround myself with phenomenal partners who understand accounting inside out, who understand books or taxation inside and out, people who are super duper organized. These are big failings that I have in my skillset, my personality. So I've had to bring these folks in and show them that I can do something to add value in their life. And then we partner up. And that's been huge for me.  Another thing that's been huge as I've raised so much capital, I mean my returns in all of this would have been tiny compared to what I was able to do because it was easy to go out after a while and some reputation to raise $10 million or $15 million to do a deal. Without that, my returns would have been a fraction of what they've been. But I built the trust, I built the relationships. I performed for my investors. I did everything I could to make them a lot of money and because of that, I made a lot of money, a portion of everything they made, I also made.  Another thing that I think has just been huge was starting this, I wanted to do it all alone. I was one of these guys that just wanted to read on like Bigger Pockets or like hang out online and just read and I could do it alone. I didn't need anyone's help. I wanted to own it. That would've been a huge mistake in multifamily investing. You can kind of wing it in single family, but multifamily, it's a team sport all day long. You need a hell of a team on your side, on your behalf. You trust each other, you lean on them, you rely upon them. And so team building, not only for my immediate advisors but also for raising the capital. It required me getting off my butt, get out from the computer, go awkwardly, shake hands, go and meet people and it was horrible for me. I hated doing that. I lacked self-confidence. I lacked the thought that anyone would be interested in even talking to me just I was, I was kind of low and slow. You had to just be like, I really need this. I need this to work, I need this to be successful. So I'm going to go and do the worst thing I could think of doing and plant myself at a networking event from 5:00 PM until 10:00 PM and not allow myself to leave. I'm just there, I'm trapped. But no matter what, I got to go talk to people and it was horrible, terrible. The dentist is better, tax is better, whatever. But eventually I started liking people at these things and they started knowing what I was up to and I bought that house or I bought that new apartment complex and how is that going? And loosen my tongue. I got my confidence up, my courage up and before long, I really love going to them because those were my pals, those were my buddies. Now, wherever I went to these different real estate meetups and without that, impossible to do the business, I don't have enough money to take down 10, 20, 30, $40 million deals Like how am I going to do that? I need guarantors, I need KPs who believe in me. How are they going to believe in me? Chatting for a while, talking about my business, bringing them out to my property, sharing a meal or a beer or whatever. And suddenly they're like, yeah, I'll sign on your note with you. Some of these were full recourse loans and they're pledging their stock portfolio on me. Blew my mind. But it was just through being sincere or not hiding stuff, just being a hundred percent transparent with them. And I had people who I never thought wanted to talk to me, betting on me with their signature and pledging their stock portfolio to make me get these full recourse bridge loans done on 50% occupied properties. So that was the long answer, but really, really, really network, partner up if you don't have what you need, raise capital, do bigger deals and go, go, go. James:  Yeah. Yeah. Awesome advice. I think so much of advising golden nuggets in what you mentioned just now. Is there any proud moments in your life that you think, you know, you're really proud of that and one day you're going to tell to your grandkids, you know, when you're really, really old, one proud moment that you think, oh, I'm so happy I did this. I'm very proud of that. Can you share that with us? Will: You know, it's, it's probably the moment, the sort of make or break moment. When I was in southern California and I had a good thing going, I understood how to flip houses. I was making some okay money at it, paying the bills, accumulating. I had more than anyone I knew, but it was 300 grand or something. It was nothing but it was more than anything I knew. So I had a comfortable life and I had a pattern and I had a sort of figured it out and it was really just stepping back and saying, I want more opportunity and I'm willing to do whatever it takes to get it.  So I didn't know anyone in Dallas, not a soul, zero people there. I looked around the whole country, looked at Florida, I looked at Arizona and Nevada like anywhere there was supposed to be opportunity and I really zeroed in on Texas as hey, strong economy, great wages, low cost of living, low taxation, they seem business friendly and I just pieced this together off of Internet research. I drove around the country and the old piece of crap, 91 Buick with 200,000 miles on it and I was like, where is it? And I picked Texas and it was really just a twin costs on Dallas. I think I visited there in April and it was pretty that day or something and I just moved there.  So I just loaded up my car with all my junk and then dropped it in a storage facility and lived in a motel six as I tried to figure out what's next, what's the next play. People looked at me like I was a bit crazy, but to me, that was the only move. Like how could I start a business in California? There wasn't friendly for businesses down there. Rent was absurdly high, not only to live but to rent anything for an office space or just to build anything. Costs were really high for real estate. So basically to answer your question, what am I really proud of? I took a leap, a calculated risk. I really calculated a lot. I really studied the thing, but then I made that leap. There was nothing comfortable about it. I didn't have any safety net. I had nothing. I had like six grand in the bank.  I lived, you know, expendable. I had my nugget but that was for business. It was forbidden to touch that. But I had six grand in the bank that I could actually do something with. And, you know, living in a motel six is humbling. Your friends by this point, they are 10 years into their career or five years into their career and they've got the three series beemer and the nice condos sort of by the beach kind of in California. And here's, Will, doing this weird stuff. But I just saw the future. I saw the writing on the wall and I took that gamble and I'm really, really glad I did it. It stacked the odds in my favor, it put odds behind me and I was able to set myself up to use those odds to roll the dice.  It didn't work immediately in Texas. It took several years to get going, but the odds were on my side. So then I just needed to play the game then. And I did and I played it as much as I could. And then it resulted in a fantastic past seven, eight years here.  James: It's a big leap of faith, right? And just so many people are scared to take the leap of fate or they just say, oh, I'm going to do it later. People give so many reasons to make that big jump and it's something that, you know, you have to do it if you have to do it, sometimes you have to make that choice. And is there like a daily habit that you have that you think has contributed a lot to your effectiveness in your success? Will: I guess this will sound a little controversial. I think there's maybe two things. One, I got good at that networking thing I talked about, and so probably more than a lot of people, you will find me out at five drinking a decaf coffee somewhere or grabbing a beer with people that I've never met before. I don't know who these people are, they just messaged me on Facebook. I'm like, okay, that what's happening here in Manila, people I've never met. They're like, you're in Manila. I'm going to be in Hong Kong, I'll meet you. But that's been huge to just keep doors open. Every time you meet a new person, you never know what door that's going to open up and even if they're humble and starting, they have ideas or a work ethic that you want to be part of or some new partnerships or new source of deals, some new source of equity, whatever.  So I do a lot of people are like, are you working? You know, sitting there just kind of talking at a bar or whatever. Yeah, that's been huge to keep some momentum going for me, a little controversial maybe. And then on the flip side of that, I try to stay sharp by every morning waking up and going for a jog and without fail, I've got my earbuds in and I'm listening to some podcasts. I'm listening to some audio book. I'm listening to something that's just drilling further understanding, intelligence into my mind, shifting my perspective. That's been huge for me to not maintain, but to continue to grow and expand my mind and where I'm going to go in the future. That's been huge for me. And the exercise combined with the knowledge is amazing.  James: Awesome. Is there anything else that you want to share with the audience, the listeners that you have not shared in any of the podcasts that you think, hey, I should mention this in some podcasts? Will: Interesting question. I think I haven't mentioned this just because it's pretty new in my mind, but it's really easy to get locked into the idea that going from having $2 million to $4 million is going to do something for you. It won't do anything for you. Like you won't even notice. It's so obnoxious that adding $1 million to your balance sheet will go unnoticed, but it gets to that point in a hurry to where you really have to shift and I was lazy about it. It's like, oh, there's another deal. I'll grab this. I'll do this one, do this one. What's really changed my life for the better has been reevaluating, stepping back and saying, okay, literally adding a few more million will go unnoticed to me but what will be noticed for me is I dramatically shift my schedule, how I'm living my life, who I'm interacting with, and that's kept me out of the daily grind of business a lot.  I'm still doing it. I still check in, I still email, I still call, but it's become a third of my day instead of 133% of my day. I do a lot more reading. I'll do more traveling, I'll focus more on cooking or I'm a musician, then I focus on that and this is maybe the wrong topic for a real estate show or whatever. Maybe you frame it how you want, but it's been hugely rewarding for me to make that transition to enjoy life daily. Don't procrastinate life till later. I'm 39 and I feel very, very fortunate to be in this spot now to where I'm expanding and I'm learning and I'm studying language and philosophy and it's making me so much better person than throwing another several million dollars on the balance sheet. So that's a new thought for me. I haven't said it on any podcast but that's really what I'm thinking about right now, a lot. James: Awesome. Awesome. And I have to say thank you to you, Will, because when I started in real estate, when I started doing multifamily, I have a lot of ideas and thoughts and I started writing my own blogs and I think you are one of the one who read one of my blog and you say good things about my blog and I was thinking, huh? Not bad. Will:  I remember that well. I'm like, who's this guy? This is really great.  James: I was like, Huh? Somebody like real, I mean, I think, at that time you were well known in the multifamily space and I was thinking, oh, not bad by somebody commented me. So that's why I started writing more blogs and I say, I need to write a book. English is not my first language but I mean, putting everything that I have in my mind into a book or on my blog helps me a lot because I don't know, for some reason I have to write it down and share it with others.  And especially when you have the knowledge, you know, what's the point of keeping it to yourself. Right? So you have to share it and I'm proud of all your work that you've been doing in with the children's treatment in the Philippines, which is, I think it's very, very fulfilling. I think that's something that nobody can take away from you. I mean, you can lose the money, you can lose the real estate, you can lose your entire life but that's something that, I don't know whether I'm talking for you or not, but for me, it feel like it follows you because that's Karma, right? You do good, things are going to go your way. Do you want to tell the listeners how to get hold of you? Will: Sure. I'm a big Facebook guy, so my id is  Will Crozier. I'm friends with James, but just hook up with me there. Two websites that are relevant for me is capxventures.com. That's kind of my multifamily arm. I am also hanging out @angelcapitalist.com. That's where I put some of my boring, boring blog posts; things that I cook up once in a while when I'm really bored. There's some of that there. How to connect with me is there. Some of the humanitarian projects. I'm also doing some angel investing in businesses that I really believe in. I loved not only real estate but any business, small business or larger so I've been investing in small businesses lately. There's one's called Propelio, maybe some people have heard about it so subscribe to that. Make me some more money, please. It's a great group of free real estate, especially single family educational content. Totally free. They're not selling you anything regarding that. So check it out. They're having a great academy there. I think those are the best ways to connect with me and kind of keep tabs on what I'm up to. And I love people to pitch. So if you have deals that you want to partner up with me on or a business that you need equity sometimes that, usually I like equity, but, yeah, reach out. James: Yeah. Yeah. I mean that's a clue, guys. I mean, if you want to pitch your business to Will, I mean, I can bet you he can look at financials and quickly tell you whether the deal works or not because it takes a lot of skill to really do deep value -add, and, you know, not many people can do it as well, but I think Will is a really good resource for that. So. All right. Thank you very much for coming on the show and happy to have you here. Thank you. Will: A lot of fun, James. Thanks.

[fusion_builder_container hundred_percent="no" equal_height_columns="no" menu_anchor="" hide_on_mobile="small-visibility,medium-visibility,large-visibility" class="" id="" background_color="" background_image="" background_position="center center" background_repeat="no-repeat" fade="no" background_parallax="none" parallax_speed="0.3" video_mp4="" video_webm="" video_ogv="" video_url="" video_aspect_ratio="16:9" video_loop="yes" video_mute="yes" overlay_color="" video_preview_image="" border_size="" border_color="" border_style="solid" padding_top="" padding_bottom="" padding_left="" padding_right=""][fusion_builder_row][fusion_builder_column type="1_1" layout="1_1" background_position="left top" background_color="" border_size="" border_color="" border_style="solid" border_position="all" spacing="yes" background_image="" background_repeat="no-repeat" padding_top="" padding_right="" padding_bottom="" padding_left="" margin_top="0px" margin_bottom="0px" class="" id="" animation_type="" animation_speed="0.3" animation_direction="left" hide_on_mobile="small-visibility,medium-visibility,large-visibility" center_content="no" last="no" min_height="" hover_type="none" link=""][fusion_text]Watch the live interview below [/fusion_text][fusion_youtube id="https://youtu.be/IMEWAY-hdgI" alignment="center" width="" height="" autoplay="false" api_params="&rel=0" hide_on_mobile="small-visibility,medium-visibility,large-visibility" class="" /][fusion_text] Transcription (was completed by automated process. Please ignore any speech-to-text errors) [00:00:22] Hey I'm Beatty Carmichael and welcome to the get sellers calling you real true podcast. And I'm excited today to visit with another wonderful agent actually a client of ours named Carrie George from Crimmins Colorado Carrie. Say hello and tell us where cribbing is. [00:00:40] Hi there everyone. Crumbling is located in the northwest portion of Colorado. So oftentimes I tell people we are in between Silverthorne and that's where the ski resorts like Breckenridge and Keystone are. so in between there and Steamboat Springs. Really beautiful valley of the Rocky Mountains. [00:01:03] Well you are definitely in God's beautiful green earth and I guess sometimes White Earth out there during the wintertime. So all of that I'm over here in short sleeves and it's warm outside. Well I'm really excited to visit with you Carrie because I know you got a real strong stable business. We talked and you got some really great balance in your life and I think there's a lot of things to share because having a stable business having balance still handling this challenges but managing them in a really great way is there's a combination that you don't always find. So I'm really excited about that. Thank you. And also just for a reminder of those who are on the call watching or listening. It is an Internet call so please pardon any Internet interruptions that may occur. So I guess to get started Carrie can you tell me a little bit about yourself as a realtor maybe. How long you been in business and just anything that gives people an idea of understanding who is this person we're talking to and why should I listen to you. Right. [00:02:18] Perfect. So I've been a realtor for 15 years. I got my license back in 2004. I kind of came into this business sort of by chance I never really thought that a real estate career was something that I'd want to do. But at the time I was transitioning from being the Chamber of Commerce Director here in our little town which was a very fulfilling job. But it was very hard and I got paid very little money. But I met a lot of great people and learned a lot about our area. So in hindsight it was a really nice segway to go far from in the Chamber of Commerce Director and moving into real estate because I already had connections with so many people. One of the things that I love most about real estate is the creative aspect of it the marketing the photography that the new technology that we are always seeing coming down the pike. I love that kind of ever changing aspect of our business. I work in a small community. Others for full time realtors in our town which is which is unusual. I think most people are. And bigger cities where there's a lot more saturation. [00:03:30] You don't have hardly any competition there. Right. [00:03:34] Really downs. I mean I have to pinch myself sometimes and thank God because a lot of ways there's parts of it that are really easy. And then a lot of ways there's lots that are very hard. I feel like sometimes a big fish in a small pond where I have sort of this one little area that I do real estate and that sometimes is hard to branch in to other parts of our county. So it comes with its bonuses and negatives being in this small community mainly mainly positive so well know what type of markets do you typically do. [00:04:10] I know we were talking a little bit before the call but what have you found to be kind of the real staple niche or focus that drives your business. [00:04:21] So lots of residential I'd say about half my business is second homeowners. And the other half is primary residence. I love doing residential real estate the most. I will also do vacant land and commercial but selling houses and photographing houses is way more fun than taking a picture of a piece of dirt. So I so because they're two very different markets the primary residence and the second homeowner you know you have to kind of have different marketing approaches to deal with those two different clientele. So you know my primary residence These are people that I know that I see all the time our kids go to school together. You know just building really strong relationships with them that have to do with real estate. And then I don't have to do with real estate. And then with the second homeowners finding other ways to reach them I'm usually through direct mail and in farming certain areas is is the way that I'm reaching out to those people. [00:05:19] I'd like to talk on the second homeowner Mark. First because it's kind of a unique niche. And for those that are in that niche there is always the question how do I grow it. OK. And and I know that there's probably going to be folks listening to this saying Well oh she's only competing with three or four other realtors so doesn't matter what she does she's going to. You know it's easy to get business. Let me in. Let me ask that question first. Is it really easy to get business because there's not that many realtors or are you still kind of find that there are things you have to consistently do if you want the business to keep coming in. [00:05:53] Oh there definitely is. You know one of the agents here in town she was born and raised in this community. She knows everybody and everybody knows her. And so you know even though there are just a few of us you still have to have your game. You know you still have to you cannot take a back seat to this business. Everybody who is in the business knows that when you're in sales your effort is 100 percent related to your success. So it's very much still and my personality is that I don't like doing a job halfway. I really care about what I put out there. I care about what my voice sounds like through my marketing and how my voice sounds in person. And so being authentic is very very important to me. And that has got to come through in the marketing as well. [00:06:47] Well let's talk about that because I know that was in our conversation before the call. That was the number one thing you mentioned is just that authenticity or being authentic. I'm not sure what the word is. I was trying to fill up. So talk to me about being authentic and talk to me. So after 15 years you've found you've gone through those things you You've experimented I'm sure with things that just didn't work and those things that did. What is the how does the impact of being authentic impact your business and what are you doing to be authentic. So people actually will come to business with you and repeat business. [00:07:27] So I have a perfect case study for this exact example. There's a couple of area subdivisions that are nearby and you know I'd have a buyer who hey I really want to be in this one particular area and say OK great Look send a letter out to all of the homeowners and see if anybody's been thinking about selling. So I'd write a nice letter. Hi Mr. and Mrs. So-and-so. I have a buyer looking in your area. Have you thought about selling your home. And I literally got zero response from these letters that I would send out. But I would still do them because I thought well you never know somebody might really be thinking about it. Just recently we have a new pastor coming to town and he found an area that was really attractive to him. And I thought you know what. I'm going to do a little bit of a different strategy this time I'm going to be really specific in my letter I'm going to use his name. I'm going to use his wife's name. I'm going to say that he has two kids. I'm going to say he's the new pastor at our church and I put all of that in the letter. I had him review it before I sent it out and off it went well I had 400 times more response from that letter than I did from all of my subsequent letters. Well I'm wondering how does what does that have to do with being authentic. [00:08:44] Well I think what it has to do with being authentic is. I think if I would have put my head in to a sellers head but just received a very generic letter from me it's possible they might have been thinking that I'm just fishing for listings and that is not part of my personality one of the things I pride myself on is integrity and honesty and so I knew I had a buyer for that specific area but those sellers didn't. And my letter sounded exactly like everybody else's letter Hey I have a buyer. Are you thinking about selling your house. And until I was using specific examples I was not getting the kind of traction that I wanted and so now I have totally changed my strategy with this. I've got another guy who's looking in the same area. I said Brian I'm going to use your name. And he said OK go ahead tell him exactly what I'm looking for. And I feel that that being authentic being honest being straightforward being what using the most integrity that you possibly can is a way that you will kind of bridge that gap from sales person to seller and actually start to create a real connection and a real relationship with somebody you know that's interesting because in marketing what we find is if you're very specific you're believable. [00:10:06] Yeah. It seems to me that what you're doing is you are being very specific with not I have a client but I have this particular client. Here's what he's looking for in so the more specificity you give the more believable in your words more authentic it is. And now they know this is a real solicitation for a real prospect who really wants to move in this area and is very legitimate. Yeah. [00:10:33] I love it. Yeah I was really pleased. I thought Wow it took me 15 years to figure this out but now this is my new strategy. [00:10:42] Well very good. Very good. So let's talk about is there any other examples or any of the things that you can share on what you do. You mentioned earlier and I want to come back to this your voice. OK. When you talk about your voice What are you. For those are listening. You. What do you mean by that. [00:11:00] So anyone who's in real estate or is then thinking about getting into real estate you'll if you google any of that like how to be a successful realtor you'll start to see some of these kind of bullet points like. Well you should call a call. You should call for sale by owners you should work the expired list. And to me all of those things are they probably do work. I don't think they work for me because they don't feel authentic to me. I am a very not pushy person and that has actually worked to my benefit because I have clients all the time who will tell me. Thank you for not being pushy. They also put that in their reviews that they do for me after a sale. And so I think then people choose to work with me because they know I'm not going to be pushy. I really feel that buyers and sellers are decision makers. I'm there to guide them to counsel them to provide as much information as possible so that they can make the decision that is most appropriate for them and their family. [00:12:08] I had me on mute. And that was great. I love it. [00:12:12] So now talk to me in terms of driving business from your second home owners. What type of things are you. Do you find that really the things that work those things that don't and and are you. So let's go down that road a little bit can we. [00:12:28] Because second homeowners OK so for a second homeowners I mainly do direct mail. I know a lot of agents are totally moving away from some of the old school marketing styles. I personally think that direct mail still works very well. If you use the right pieces I still really like giving an envelope and hand addressing it because I think people will then open it. So that's if I have something really important and specific to send to somebody in a certain area. like a second homeowner I will take the time and hand address envelopes. It well your hand is your hand is sore. Don't get me wrong but I think the open rate goes up so much when you take that extra time to to hand address on the loaves. So again I will sometimes do a market update if there is something that's been recently sold I'll do a quick analysis for them because again I think just sold and just listing postcards have their place but I know that sellers get a lot of those. And so instead of maybe sending a just sold postcard why not break it down and say you know here's a less for sales and why are these sales significant. Are these the highest sales in this subdivision in you know X number of years that's what we're finding in our market is that it's so strong that that's a great pitch that you can send out to sellers to say did you know in the past twelve months we've had the four highest sales that your subdivision has ever seen as a as a homeowner that would be something that would be really important for me to know I'm not just hey our market's really hot and everything's really great but give me something specific that I can work on so I'll do things like that and then I also try and do things that are really visually and design wise very appealing because that's another thing that's very important to me I'm I'm kind of like a marketing geek. [00:14:29] I love anything to do with marketing and the way something looks is really important to me. I recognize that sometimes I have analysis paralysis where I'll work so hard on something and I wanted to be just perfect. But then I heard a quote the other day that perfectionism is actually procrastination in disguise and I'm like Yeah oh that's me. That's totally me. So I've let go of some of that but I do really care about how how something looks because I want to be proud of what I send out. And I also want sellers to see a piece for me and say this person put a lot of thought and care into putting this together and then I equate that to the fact that I would also put a lot of thought and care into marketing their home. [00:15:17] So out of curiosity these. So you're talking about sending out sold or you know less for sales. Is that that's not a postcard you're actually doing that in an envelope. [00:15:28] I am. So those I do in a letter where I'll highlight you know I just did one for a condo complex actually at a little bit outside of my market but I thought what would be something that I would want to know about my area. And I did a little bit of research and saw that over the past 15 years we had the four highest sales in this complex in the last 12 months. And I thought well that's something that's really useful that I could write a letter about. [00:15:53] So now are you sending these to your past clients that are out of town owners who are using these to just prospective clients prospective clients. Yeah. Okay okay. Very cool. And so when you're sending in the letter are you are you putting photos of those sales or just kind of outlining it. I mean when I get the letter. OK it's going to be handwritten I'm going to open it. And then what's in the package. So I have a little paragraph at the top and then the sales are bullet points because I know that. [00:16:25] Our attention span is about eight seconds even if you get something open. I have about eight seconds to catch their attention. So I put the sales in the middle of the letter as bullet points no photos but just listing the sales what they sold for how big they were what the sales date was because I thought if they look at that and then they also see the name of their complex. I mean it hopefully hook them and they're going to read the whole letter because I still think at the end of the day if you own a property in any given area and somebody provides you something of value about the value of your property they're going to be interested. [00:17:04] So now in terms of. So is this one of the primary things you're doing for their second homeowners just mailing out these letters are you doing postcards with it as well. [00:17:13] At times I do a mix of postcards sometimes as well especially if I want to do something really big and I don't want to have to dress 500 on both camps right. I'll do a postcard for that but then sometimes I'll just like try and pick a really visually beautiful photo something that's maybe unique to our area so they know like oh yeah I know that mountain that's right in my backyard. So some kind of hook something where they say this is relevant to me that this is not just something that's gonna go in the trash. [00:17:43] So then help me help me quantify. You can you may or may not be able to but your mailing generally speaking to about how many people each time and what type of return is that producing in terms of people calling you say Hey Carrie I want to sell or I want to buy what are you what what do you get out of it. [00:18:03] So I there's two areas that I farm regularly and I'd say I send out about a hundred to one hundred and fifty pieces per area I reckon nice too that there are people who get my letters on a consistent basis who put it in a folder and say when I'm ready to sell I'm calling her I had a sale last year and that's exactly what the person told me. I've been getting your letters for years and I knew when the time came for me to sell you were going to be the person I called. So you know if you think of it some of this stuff you're filling a pipeline for years down the road. But I think consistency is also very important. I would say in general on average my response rate from those is maybe like three to four calls or emails per mailing which I think is still pretty good and well worth it to me now. They're not always ready to sell at that moment. It might be Hey I got your letter. I have some questions because you do a market analysis for me. You know I'm not ready to sell yet but I'm thinking I'm going down that road so they don't always turn into an immediate client and an immediate contract. Sometimes it's just the beginning of nurturing that relationship and making those connections. [00:19:22] Yes. So that's really good though. Three four calls for mailing because now you kind of identify who it is in the pipeline yet they get a chance to engage with you. I would assume that those people who are calling you when they do go on the market. Have you ever lost any of those to another agent. [00:19:42] I don't think so. Yeah. So really think about it but I don't think I ever have. [00:19:46] Well so that's the most important part in my mind is if you can just get them to engage with you even if it's early on then you pretty much have a habit. I want to switch topics real quick to your primary homeowners there in the because you're actually you're doing both types of marketing right. And I'm assuming that the marketing is different that you do for secondary home versus what you do for primaries correct. [00:20:11] It is. So one of the things that we've been I work in a small office and I have a couple of colleagues one of the things that's been really important to us is is supporting our community in any way that we can. So we do a lot of events sponsorships throughout the year. I'd say we prep locally we host a couple of our own and then we sponsor a couple of other events that the community does. So for instance we sponsor the summer reading program and my colleague and I will go to the library and do a craft with the kids and send them with a little gift when it's all done. We sponsor our local community festival every year we do a parade float and hand out popsicles to everybody. We sponsor our own pumpkin giveaway in October where we fill our office with hundreds of pumpkins and the kids come to pick out a. And for free we sponsor the mutton busting at the fair so we we really try and get our name out there with community events. We mainly focus around kids because my colleague and I both have young children. So it's something that's very very important to us. And so we're doing these events that have nothing to do with real estate but supporting the community that we live in and love. It's not just to generate sales. [00:21:33] It's something that we truly feel is important to give back to the community and in any way that we can. [00:21:41] And so if that because it is that about. So I'm curious because this is really cool. Are you doing besides has been involved in the community or are you doing anything special and either reaching out to people personally or marketing to them or is it simply just kind of being present. [00:22:01] Well it's kind of twofold. So I think there's sort of a natural residual good feelings that people get by knowing that you know Keller Williams top of the Rockies sponsors these great events in our community. Like it makes people feel good about what we do for a living because let's face it there are we get compared to all kinds of. not nice industries and some people are. not great realtors but most of them really are good realtors and they're good people. So we have that aspect of it where people feel good about what we're doing and feel good about us giving back to the community. And then in terms of like actual marketing to primary residents I do a combination of direct mail with them as well. I do handwritten cards to a J. I'm really getting disciplined about it Good job parts per day to my sphere and then a little bit even wider than my sphere doing Popeyes. That's been a little bit hard for me because it feels a little more pushy than I'm used to but I find too if I'm bringing something of value that I don't feel awkward about it. Let's see what else am I doing. Well the Monday morning coffee which is fantastic and I'm absolutely loving it and my clients are loving it too. [00:23:25] I guess I'll tell people because a lot of folks listening to this won't know the background of your handwritten notes or Popeyes or Monday morning coffee. So can you enlighten a little bit more on that so people know what you're talking about. [00:23:38] You're listening to the get sellers calling you podcast to increase sales from past clients and sphere of influence or from a geographic farm learn about Agent dominator. We guarantee your sales in writing or give your money back to learn more. Visit our website get sellers calling you dot com. It's like Agent dominator from the. [00:23:56] And now back to the podcast. [00:23:59] So Monday morning coffee is a program that Beatty does through MailChimp and there's a little blurb at the top about real estate because that is what we do but it's short it's easy to read it's nothing super technical and that this. Thirds of it really nice feel good story something inspirational something really you know touching about it just other human beings that are on the face of the planet with us. So I get feedback every single week. People say to me I love having Monday morning coffee with you or this made my day. I hear from people I haven't heard from in years that they reach out to me and say wow I'm sitting here reading your your email and crying like because it's such an emotional story that I've resisted doing like a newsletter for so long because I didn't want to send emails about how to clean your gutters and when to change your your furnace filter because again that feels so inauthentic to me. And so sales and so typical real estate nothing against anybody who does that. I mean if it's if it's your cup of tea that's fine. It wasn't something that I wanted to do. And so Monday morning coffee was such an amazing fit for me because it had a little real estate blurb but more than anything it was just something nice to read. And in this day and age where you get so much bad news and you're just bombarded with all kinds of garbage constantly. I love that there's one e-mail that comes out for me per week that is just a really fantastic story. [00:25:36] So these are just some great touches into your personal lives and you know I've got to ask you you did you just start doing pop bys from our conversation a few weeks back. [00:25:47] Yeah. And I had something that was kind of in the works too. But then our conversation sort of prompted being like I really should just do this. People are scared of me and I you know I don't know why I thought like they won't want to see me but they do. And I created a business and and B by being authentic I am friends with many of my clients after the sale we hang out on a social level we'll get coffee together so I think it was my own personal hang up about they won't want to see me. They won't want to talk to me. And that was really the complete opposite of what it really was. [00:26:21] I love it. I love it. Well I want to ask a crazy question or an unusual question out of everything you've done. What are the one or two things that just absolutely did not work for you that you tried it was just a bomb. Anything you can share with folks on maybe what not to do. [00:26:40] Well I would say that when you get those calls from people who are going to promise you a bunch of Facebook ads by pushing your listings out there and creating the ad for you personally I have found those to be a complete dud and be very very expensive. So. And again going back to being authentic I think if you want to do a Facebook marketing and you want to be reaching people that way I think it's so much more important for you to just create really valuable content versus paying somebody to build ads for you. So you know offer a you know you would host a free clinic at your office to talk about the market or to teach people about different loan types and invite a lender to come in and teach that class with you offer something of value. People see listings they can go anywhere. Real Talk on Zillow Trulia they can find listings anywhere if they're on Facebook and you they want to provide value and make clients client connections there. I would say offer something of value offer some kind of content. So that debt that tanked for me I spent a lot of money on those and I got nothing from them. [00:28:00] Local I. That makes sense. Well let me shift gears I want to talk about work family balance. Now you have a family is that correct. Yep. So tell me a little bit about your family. Just so we kind of have a perspective. [00:28:13] Sure. My husband Bill and I have been married for almost 15 years and we have two daughters. Elizabeth is eight and a half. And Ashley just turned five. [00:28:24] I love it. So you've got a busy household for sure. [00:28:28] We have a second grader and a preschooler so we're not like entrenched in those school sports yet. Like I know parents of high schoolers are but we're still pretty busy and the work and family life balance has always been a struggle for me. My husband is also a Realtor. He sells bigger properties so we're both in sales which is which is difficult. You know in a lot of times you know one spouse will be a realtor and the other one will have a real job where you get paid every two weeks and we don't have that in our in our home. So that sort of fear of missing out and feeling sort of very attached to your phone and feeling a little paranoid about not answering your phone call is a real thing for both of us both struggle with it. And I think setting really good boundaries for yourself and for your family life is very important. But it's it's hard. It takes work. It takes discipline. It takes. [00:29:32] You trying to be in the present in that moment and it's that's really hard for us to do in this day and age for always thinking about something that's already happened or something that's going to happen instead of just being here right now. And so it's almost like a habit you have to form. [00:29:50] Talk to me about those boundaries. What have you what have you and your husband put in place and I'm sure it's tempting to kind of break the boundary periodically and how do you hold to it. Tell me what it is a little bit more. [00:30:03] Well we're not always perfect of course but we do try and have a certain time of day where you know the business phone calls stop and you know replying to emails stops. I am really particular about my Sunday mornings. We go to church and I do not show property or meet with clients from ten to twelve on Sundays. Now after church is over I'm happy to catch people because I know a lot of my clients. That's the only time they're available so I do trying to accommodate them in the afternoons but I think you have to decide you have to decide what's important to you have to decide where your priorities lie. And when I look at my two young daughters and I know they still really like me and they still really want to hang out with me that might not always be the case when they get to be teenagers they might rather be with their friends and so and all of this that I do and real estate is still going to be here. So I need to as a mom and as a wife make sure that I make my family my priority. But like I told you earlier it's like we're training for a marathon. It does not happen overnight and you have to just really work at being disciplined and and creating really good habits for the health of your family and yourself. [00:31:16] I agree. It really takes a discipline and what I've learned for me is it takes scheduling it out you know knowing specifically I'm going to take this time off from where you cut off the clock at this point and literally almost putting in your calendar. And so the answer is No. During these times. Does that make sense. Yes exactly. So you mentioned church talk to me about. Talk to me about your spiritual life. [00:31:42] So my spiritual life has been kind of a crazy road. I grew up in Denver and my grandma my great great grandfather is actually the founding one of the founding members of the largest synagogue in Denver. I was actually raised Jewish but then I moved to the mountains and there's really no synagogues in the mountains. And so my spiritual life kind of like really just was very dormant for a really long time. And then I had some personal struggles and some business struggles that had come into my life and I was just kind of out of options like I don't know what to do here. One personal struggle in particular there was really no right answer to what I was going through. It was just extremely painful and extremely difficult. And I found myself just kind of on my knees like all right God if you're out there I really need your help right now like this. I don't know what else to do. And that was when my spiritual life like almost like a seed that goes dormant started to just blow up is not the right word but completely flourish and and grow. What started to happen at that point to say it again maybe what started to happen at that point. [00:33:04] What what were the things that just started to flourish. Can you give me some ideas on that. [00:33:09] So. I have like in my life dealt with a lot of anxiety and so and living in fear and this particular situation created a lot of anxiety and fear for me. And when I finally got to my lowest of lows and and asked God please you help me not only did he answer my prayer for what I really was praying for. but the amount of peace and calmness that he brought to my life was I can't even really compare it to anything. It was like almost like a light switch went off like oh I know what to do now I have peace I have calmness and I knew that he was in control and he was in charge. And then from there I just started to find the Lord and find my relationship with him. And you know the judeo christian religions very much cross over each other. But what I think is so amazing about being a Christian is having a relationship like a real relationship with the Lord. And like anywhere that you might be you can sit down and talk to him and tell him what's on your mind. And it doesn't have to be formal and structured. You can just say whatever is is going through that go at any kind of struggles you might be going through any kind of painful moments you might be going through guidance advice like what should I do about this. [00:34:38] And and that part of it has been so amazing because growing up Jewish. A lot of it was very hands off very much like just ceremony and and praying but not not having relationship. And that's just such a different ballgame. [00:34:57] If that makes sense for me it makes a lot of sense. You know some people is oh holy God. Yeah. For others it's dead. God. Right. Exactly. And having that relationship where you can just bring anything to him even the little things and the big things. So how has your relationship with the Lord impacted if you look at your business OK and how you live your life. What are the things that is impacted that if you did not have that relationship with the Lord you would probably do things differently. Does that make sense. Trying to ask. [00:35:35] I think so yeah. Well I think first of all like I've always felt like I was a person of integrity but knowing the Lord and knowing truly knowing the difference between wrong and right and knowing his way has guided me in so many different ways. [00:35:57] Like I'll use an example of sometimes you know what the right answer is it's not really what you want to do but you know it's the right answer. And when you have him by your side making that hard decision is so much easier because you just you you feel differently about your interactions with people. [00:36:19] It's not just so much about how much money he can make going to make. And can I go on this vacation or that vacation. I would say that through my relationship with the Lord my giving has expanded tremendously that I realize now how important that is to not just give money but to give time as well. There are situations that I pray with my clients. Yesterday I was at a listing appointment and I asked. I said Can we pray. And they said absolutely. And so we just prayed for God to light their path because they're not really sure if they want to sell or not. Would he guide them. And if their home does sell that the new people that live here that they would have peace and harmony and safety in this new home. So it's just it's like it's opened up a new sort of chapter of my business. I found connection with a lot of people because of our our spiritual values align with each other. Sometimes it will come up very randomly. I met a gal yesterday morning and she asked where my kids went to school and and I said they went to the local school and she said Oh yeah I know there's a couple of kids that go to the Christian school and so then that started us talking about oh where do you go to church so I go here you know. And so then then then you know like that you have that special connection and that you maybe see things somewhat the same personally. [00:37:43] So although the idea that you're praying at the listening appointment when we put a contract on our house and our realtor was a Christian you know first thing we did is we prayed over the contract. Yeah really cool. So in terms of your interaction with your clients from a Christian standpoint just like praying at that listing appointment are there anything else. Anything else for your relationship with the Lord kind of model. Is your behavior or how you reach out to people in those interactions. [00:38:16] I would say one thing that's been really cool about working with other Christians is their disappointment level when something doesn't work out. Is is is actually really graceful and beautiful. They understand that you know that maybe wasn't the right house for them because God's got something better. And I I try and be sensitive to other people's viewpoints and spiritual backgrounds and so I will have that conversation and maybe a more secular way with with clients that are not Christian AND I'LL I'LL SAY YOU KNOW EVERYTHING HAPPENS FOR A REASON AND AND YOU KNOW MAYBE THAT'S that house isn't for you because there is a better one coming. But I know when I work with Christians that they recognize that right off the bat that we don't even really have to have that conversation there. They're acutely aware of the fact that that there's something better in fact I spoke to a lady yesterday. She has her house for sale in Estes Park and she said that our house has been on the market for three weeks and we haven't had an offer and that's so unusual. And she said but then my husband and I realized well God doesn't want us to sell our house yet because they don't have anywhere to go. They can't find a rental here and crumbling. So she said it makes perfect sense now that he's waiting for us to find a rental before he makes us homeless. [00:39:35] Totally a little bit of in your own personal life because there is that level of peace that was with your client the sense of being able to look at things and say it's OK because the Lord is guiding it. Do you share anything in terms of your business or how you manage life as a realtor where there's just that overwhelming sense of peace. [00:39:57] Yeah. And because most of my life I live with a lot of fear and a lot of anxiety. Again it's kind of like a heart that you have to break a bad habit. But knowing every day in any given moment that I'm not alone and that he's always there it's it's hard to describe. It's like what kind of blows my mind as I see people all the time that are searching they're searching for some thing that one thing that's going to bring them X Y and Z happiness fame fortune love whatever it might be. [00:40:38] And the one thing that's actually going to be the cure for what ails them is right there. And it's free. It's for the taking. It's it's there for anybody who wants it but I also recognize that I had to go on my own journey to get where I am right now and that in God's perfect timing all of that came about in the way that it did and that if it would have happened artificially or if I would have been pushed into something that I wasn't ready for it wouldn't have been him and it wouldn't have been what it is now. So I know his timing is perfect and I try and encourage and and blessed people as I can but I also recognize that that he has the ultimate plan and that he will bless people in the appropriate way. [00:41:28] Hey I'd like to ask you I don't know if there's an answer to this either because you may not have something to share or you may not want to share but is there been is there something specific you can share that you know that if you did not have the relationship with the Lord and this event happened in your life you would have responded just totally different. Is there anything like that that you can share and then what was the outcome of it ultimately. Does that make sense. I'm looking for kind of a testimony so to speak of how has the Lord and really good man in a time frame that someone else would have panicked. Yeah. [00:42:06] Well I do have one specific example and it was actually kind of in the midst of my of my spiritual journey. I mean we'll always be in our spiritual journey but it was at the beginning of mine. I had a situation come up at work in my own professional career that was very maybe very anxious. It was it was very difficult to kind of wrap my head around. It was scary. It was something that I couldn't really talk to anybody about it because of its confidential nature. And again and I found myself kind of on my knees like God I need your help I. I don't know what else to do. And I was just I couldn't eat. I was so nervous. I was just I was miserable really. And I remember that night I I I drank some calming tea it was like you're in the grocery store or they have all those that are for different ailments. And I found one calming tea so I drank this tea and I prayed and I got on my knees and I said God please help me through this situation. And when I woke up the next morning my first thought was. Wow t really works because I feel so calm right now and then I realized I was like oh no it wasn't the tea it was it was God and Holy Spirit descending on me and bringing me peace and I wouldn't necessarily say that immediately my problem was solved. It did eventually resolve itself but what was brought to me was just an overwhelming sense of peace and in the sense that it's going to be OK. Like I don't have to beat myself up about this problem. I can take it to him leave it at his feet and walk away. [00:43:49] They say because the Bible says the perfect love cast out fear. Yeah. And when we are in those situations where we can be afraid then you know God's love can push it out and we're no longer afraid in the outcome. If we're trusting the Lord is always always good. And you may not be easy but it's always good. [00:44:14] Exactly and that's what it was for me. I just took a deep breath and I said thank you God this is gonna be OK. And that was actually then that Sunday was the first time I ever stepped into a church. I had been a Jewish girl my entire life. And I thought Oh this is gonna be really weird. And it wasn't weird at all. It was exactly where I needed to be. It was beautiful. It was welcoming. And I've been going ever since and it was probably six years ago. [00:44:42] Well so you're just a six year old Christian. [00:44:46] I am. That's what I tell my pastor all the time I'm like you've got to treat me like a kindergarten I should be at Sunday school with all the little kids. [00:44:52] I love it. I love it. Well in wrapping up is there anything else you'd like to share either from your relationship with the Lord and how that's been in your life or anything in terms of your business that would help somebody. [00:45:07] Yeah I would say that my my pastor asked me to open prayer at our next service. [00:45:15] And at first I was super anxious about it. I don't like to speak in public. And he said I understand Carrie. But consider this you're speaking in front of family and you're speaking to God. And when you put it that way I thought I can do this. I would say to anyone out there who is maybe struggling who is doubting themselves who is who you may be in a hard hard place with your business or your personal life. [00:45:45] That then at the end of the day you have the fortitude inside of you and with God's grace and his strength and his love. If you keep putting one foot in front of the other that's all we're asking you to do is just don't give up. Keep moving forward. Challenge yourself sometimes step outside of your comfort zone of where you think that you need to be or want to be. Sometimes that's where our greatest growth is happening and then also to just one thing that's helped me so much and in my business and in my personal life to try and live everyday with gratitude to look around and see how we have been so blessed. I mean not just to to be able to live in this country and be one of the richest people on earth. [00:46:38] I think they said if you own two cars you're in the top eight percent of the richest people on the planet. Not just that but when you look outside and you see God's beauty the mountains the valleys the forests the ocean the deserts the plains that he put all of that here for us. I mean the fact that you can go to your sink and turn on the water and clean water comes out. I mean I kind of geek out about this a little bit because it's one of the things I'm super passionate about that we have so much bounty and so many blessings. And if you can hold on to those things the things that we ought to be grateful for instead of all the problems in your life it will turn I think turned things around for you almost like the snap of a finger because that is what perspective and gratitude can do. [00:47:28] You know I had to share a story so it's not my story third party but you know in the Bible it says that whatever is good what is your pure repute whatever is honorable you know all these things dwell on that. And there was a couple I was listening to teach many years back they'd gone through a almost certain point of divorce. He was always gone. He was always brash he was always go go go. She wanted him home and wanted more loving and compassion. And it got to be a real rift to the point that she was literally she had if I remember the story correct. She had the divorce papers in hand and the Lord put on his on her spirit just a little check in her spirit that this is not the rule to go. And she went back to the scriptures where it says to just like you you know focus on those things that you're that you can have gratitude for. Focus on those things that are good. She's actually made a list of everything that she loved about Bob and Bob and Cindy Harrison many years back. What she loved about Bob that she fell in love with. [00:48:39] What was interesting. Is those were the same things that she was now frustrated with. Right. But she started to focus on that. And every time she would get upset she would thank the Lord for these great traits and qualities of Bob. And she said it was just a matter of I mean so fast. She fell back in love and their marriage has been really super strong. So this whole attitude of attitude of gratitude and thanking the Lord and just being appreciative of all that he's done is really powerful. So I appreciate that. It really is. All right. Well I think we're pretty much at the end of this call. So Carrie thank you so much for sharing. And for those who are watching or listening if you do like this let me courage you to subscribe to our podcast. Be sure to like it on iTunes and on YouTube and in place also like our guest sellers calling you Facebook page if you want to learn more about us and how to grow your business. Just visit our website get sellers calling you dot com. So Carrie thanks again. And it's a real pleasure to visit with you. [00:49:50] Thank you. You too. All right. You'll be blessed. [00:49:55] If you've enjoyed this podcast Be sure to subscribe to it so you never miss another episode. AND PLACE LIKE OUR get sellers calling you Facebook page. Also if you want to increase sales from past clients and sphere of influence dominate a geographic farm or convert home valuation leads. Check out our agent dominator program. We create custom content that differentiates you from other realtors then use it to keep you top of mind with your prospects with postcards targeted Facebook ads email campaigns video interviews and more. And the best part is we guarantee yourselves or give all your money back. Learn more at get sellers calling you dot com and select agent dominator in the minute. [00:50:35] Thanks for listening to the get sellers calling you podcast. Have a great day. P035 [/fusion_text][/fusion_builder_column][/fusion_builder_row][/fusion_builder_container]

Hey everybody, it's Aaron Cournoyer. And welcome back to another episode of MLM Hackers Radio. Today we're going to talk about why you gotta publish. If you're like me, then you know, MLM is a great opportunity to grow a lasting asset. But the real problem is what do we do when we run out of our warm market and how do we succeed without pitching to just family and friends. This podcast is here to answer the growing questions about MLM as I learn, apply and scale my very own MLM business and document how to in this podcast. I'm Aaron Cournoyer and this is MLM hackers radio Okay. So I've been putting off publishing for a long time until I started the podcast. Um, I started doing some, a little bit of Instagram and stuff, but I would, I'm telling you this, this is one of my biggest fears was one of my biggest fear is publishing. Um, you know, I just always thought that I wasn't good enough and I wasn't, I'm not a speaker or anything like that. And, um, I told myself, I told myself that I'd be coachable and I will do whatever's necessary, you know, to win, but I will never published at least until like I established some kind of authority, um, or be some kind of influencer. But the funny thing is is to establish authority and awareness and influence. You need to publish. Like people have to see who you are. Like if no one hears you talking, then no one knows who you are. And um, it's funny story is one of my, my mentor Steve Larsen, he said to me, he goes, if you want to dominate your market and become a category king, you have to publish. He said, I'll promise you it'll change your life. And that was one of the first thing you said. He's like, you guys got to get out there. He got it published. And I was like, CRAP!!! I was like, no. I was like, I don't want to publish. Like I'll do anything else but I will not publish. I was so afraid of like feeling like I'm not an expert and like I wasn't good enough. Like, I can't, I'm not a presenter, I don't know how to speak. Um, and you know, like, he goes, it's okay though. Cause you got to realize like in the beginning you're gonna suck. Like you're not gonna be good. But the beauty in it, he said is nobody is listening. At first. You have time to really sit there and try to find your voice. You have time to find your voice. He said you want to document your journey because you become more relatable to your audience. And I say, hmm.. I was like okay. I guess that makes sense. You know, like I look at people that are like huge, like, you know, Grant Cardone and, and just be Russell Brunson. And I look at and go, man, like, I could do that, but not on his level. You know, like, this guy is so much, so much bigger and better than I am, you know. And, but once again though, he started somewhere too. You know, he wasn't this magnificent speaker in the beginning. And, um, you know, the best thing about it when you're publishing it and you're starting off and people are listening to you and they see you as like a normal person, they can relate to you. Cause a lot of your, you know, a lot of your audience starts off in the same way. Like they, they don't, they're not huge influencers. You know, like, it's so scary to look at somebody big like Russell or somewhere and you look at how much he publishes and how much he pushed puts out there and you're like, oh my God, I don't know. I don't think I can do that. Like it's hard. It's hard to do because you just, you're not that person yet. You know, you don't, you haven't had time to develop and learn and get the skill set and like being on camera just like it's a, "whistle".. that's another thing that's kind of difficult to do. I'm trying to get, I'm trying to push myself into doing that a little bit more. Um, but I still, you know, I still get the jitters. Everybody gets the jitters even during this podcast. Like you listen to me, like I'm not the greatest, but like I said, it's just about me documenting my journey so you guys can relate to me and hopefully, you know, you guys are going through some of the same things. Um, you know the, like I said, your, your audience get to see that you're human. They get to see that you're a normal person and that you started somewhere too. And if they think about and go, well, we'll look at him, look at him like he wasn't, he wasn't the best either. Do you know, you believe that you can do it too? Um, like some of the big shot marketers out there, you know, it's hard to see through and what they did and, and you know, and how that they actually have become what they have become. Because sometimes, like I said earlier, like publishing the journey is important because if you look at them now and even see where they were and how they did start, it looks like almost, it looks like it's impossible. Like you're climbing this huge, huge mountain and it's hard to how to get there. And I talked to a lot of successful people and in the MLM, in other, you know, industries and they use the internet and they say, I asked them about publishing and they say it's extremely important, but they also say that they wish they would have started publishing before they blew up. Um, just because like I said, they will become more relatable. They, they feel like they would have, they could help more people and establish more of a true following. So my advice is just published most possible. You don't have to do every platform either. You can just pick one, one or two do Facebook live, Instagram, you know, youtube podcast. You know, I chose podcasts cause it's a little easier for me to talk. Um, instead of trying to entertain the camera too. I'm not that comfortable with that yet. Uh, so, and also because at the same time, still trying to find my voice, but I feel like it's something that I need to get comfortable with. If I'm going to become a leader and a top earner and helped thousands of people. Maybe you're not sure what to talk about. You know, like sometimes I, I kind of feel like I run out of things to talk about. That's why I asked guys, give me feedback so I can actually talk to you and, and uh, you know, relate to you a little bit more. Um, but once again, like I said, it's just, it's telling stories and, and what's your learning and your journey. Um, do the best to solve the problem that they're having. Hint, that's the same problems that you're having a MLM. Majority of the people are having that same exact issue. So just try to solve the problems, try to talk about the things that you're learning and how, you know, document what you're doing every week or whatever. Whatever that you think that can help them and solve a problem. That's what you want to publish about. And for the longest, like I said, sometimes it's hard to figure out which one are published, but that's why the beauty is it just, you'd go with what you're learning. It's so much easier. Basically becoming, you know, coaching through and trying to help them cut down the time and save time by doing certain things and showing them different things that they can do to help, um, you know, them succeed in their business instead of going through the pitfalls and the failures you did. And people will love you for that. They'll, they'll respect you and your journey and understand like, okay, this guy is actually, he's, he, he is out here to actually help me. So, um, that's, that's the best thing I can do. That's the only thing I can say about publishing. I think that it's crucial for all of us. Um, and like you said, the best thing is in the beginning, no one's really paying attention. Um, you'll watch your Facebook lives, you know, you might say, oh, I, they got 20 likes on this video or I got 10 likes, but that's, that's 10 likes. So that's 20 likes that someone actually is saying that they enjoy it. What you're saying and they liked you and they respect you for publishing and that they feel like you can help them. I mean take it a different way. You know, say there's, there's only 20 people liking your video, but yet 20 people got into a plane crash and 20 people died. It's a different way looking at it. So 20 people still 20 people, all right, they still matter. Still makes a difference. You don't have to get thousands and thousands. You build yourself up to that. So just get out there and publish, do whatever Facebook Live, Instagram, live, you know, youtube, podcast, whatever you think you're going to be comfortable at first. Just get out there and publish, do something, you know, talk about your journey, help people, publishing helps people and um, and they, they really, they see it and it's, it's knowledge base that they can learn and helps them push forward. So get out there and publish. Guys, thanks for listening to this a episode and I'll catch you in the next one. Get out there, have a good week, crusher week. See Ya! Yeahhhh, that was awesome! Now, if you've been listening to this podcast and you've heard me talk about sales bones and how I use them for everything, so if you want to know more and actually create them for yourself, simply go to cffreetrial.com and get access to a free trial to the best sales funnel building software on the planet. Thanks for listening.

00:47                                     This is Changing the Face of Yoga and this is the hundred and fourth episode. I'm very excited to welcome Stephanie Spence to the podcast and she has a really interesting topic. We're going to talk about how to be environmentally aware as a Yogi. 01:03                                     Thanks so much for having me. 01:05                                     Oh, you're welcome. I think this is a great topic. Stephanie has been practicing yoga for almost 40 years, which is pretty incredible in and of its self, she's a yoga educator and author, an inspirational speaker and activist and a creative leader. She's based in Coronado, California, and she's a trail blazer with an inspiring and empowering approach to self inquiry and personal development. Her book, Yoga wisdom: Warrior Tales Inspiring you on an off your Mat is available wherever books are sold. She's committed to helping ignite the desire for others to create a life of health and joy for themselves through a sustainable practice of yoga for a lifetime of transformation. She's on a mission to inspire the whole world to practice yoga. Welcome Stephanie, and is there anything else you'd like to add to that? 02:10                                     No. Stephanie, thank you so much. I'm just so honored to be here and always thrilled to meet another Stephanie. 02:15                                     I know there's so few of us in the world now. Stephanie put out a Facebook post, which I thought was really fascinating about how yogis and why Yogis should be environmentally sensitive and look to saving the planet in their own way. Stephanie has agreed to talk about this because I think it's important for all Yogis to kind of get this thought in their brain. Do I, and how do I be better at this? So Stephanie, what I think we were talking before, and you said there was, what, 300,000 yogis? 03:01                                     No, in fact, I think now the new numbers, 300 million Yogis on the planet. And collectively I really think we have an opportunity to shift either awareness or what would be really incredible is to shift practices around the value set,  in the lens through which we're searching for goods and services in the marketplace.                                                  So I think I just started thinking about, okay, I don't know if I've been responsible in figuring out where I'm getting my products, goods and services until I had a personal experience working at a yoga studio where the people that were running the studio were incredibly unethical. And ever since then it really shifted my life and my awareness around the idea of, wow, are we just doing yoga poses or are we actually really trying to live a yogic life? And I think most people would like to really take their practice off the mat. So that's where this idea came from, was working at this studio where the people didn't pay yoga teachers and didn't source the materials and the things that they were selling from respectable and ethical sources. And it really was upsetting to me at the time because I kept on saying, this is so not yoga. And then I thought to myself, well, how, how can I explain that to somebody else? 04:40                                     I was looking at my stuff that I have and my blocks and my mats and all of that seem to be plastic-based in one way or another. And I have tried mats that were natural fibers and they didn't work very well. So how do we go about being more ethical and yet still be safe in some ways? 05:14                                     I think that's a really good question. I think the positive ethical qualities that you're talking about are outlined in Hatha Yoga And if you'll allow me, I'd like us to even talk about some of those qualities because you're right, I mean, it's expensive to go out and, and try all these different products and there's so many designations now when you look, and I think people are heavily influenced by a couple of buzz words that they hear all the time.                                                 And a friend of mine works in the green movement in sustainable fashion. And I started to ask him how do people even find these things out? And how many people really are going to take the time to dig really deep and figure out if that mat actually is going to break back down and become less of a carbon footprint or  how can we reduce the damage that we're doing to the oceans. Your brain can just explode thinking about all these big questions. 06:28                                     So I think for me, I try and break it down and use these 10 principles to kind of help me assess for myself how I'm conducting myself in the world. 06:47                                     For instance, the first one, nonviolence, which is a Ahimsa, it's really about, people always think about, oh, don't kill other beings, but it's really about being peaceful. And the way that I like to look at that as it pertains to this subject is that as I am out in the world, I'm trying to match my sensibilities with the values that I am aspiring to. And I think so the idea that if I can take something as simple a concept as being peaceful with the idea that wow, these things that I'm buying and using does it have that same effect on the world? And then another one is truthfulness, which is Satya. And so it's not only about being honest with yourself, it's about being honest with others and living in truth. So if, if you're honest with yourself and others, I'm also expecting other people to give full disclosure. So you should be able to go on to anybody's site and they should not only have like their ethics or their company code of conduct or their mission statement. They should have something that you should be able to access. And I think that's a really interesting one is truthfulness or the Satya is that it's really not only about being honest with ourselves and others, it's about these companies being honest with us as well. Right. Another one that I like to look at is the third one, it's righteousness, which is a Asteya. And it's really about like non-stealing or non-cheating But more than that it's actually defined as looking at fair trade. So for instance, in exchange for product goods and services, a fair price or a fair way of operating in the world. And I think so many companies now, thank God, have done a really good job of perhaps giving up a portion of their proceeds to a charity or have looked at ways of making things affordable for the masses instead of like organic food, just being accessible to people, to rich people or that kind of principle. I think this falls under that category, meaning that if you feel really good about your exchange with a consumer or a company, I think that's a yoga observance. And I think that my behavior in the world for inspired living from these companies, their products, their services or their professional practices should match what we're trying to do and, and how we're trying to live. 10:18                                     I think that's a really great idea. But how do we get that kind of information out there? 10:24                                     That's a really good question. I think you have to discern for yourself, not only through trusted sources and evaluating, maybe the marketing of how you're receiving information. It's become a really big buzz right now in the United States about what is fake news or what is it. But I think we've always been subjected to subtle forms or call it manipulation or advertising or marketing, but now that we've determined through problems that they've had through social media, for instance, Facebook, but you can actually now be, manipulated into thinking good or bad things or using your own judgment has become, I think, trickier. So you're right, I think it's up to us to live in a spiritual focus, which actually takes me to number four, which is wisdom, which is Brahmacharya. So as I live in this spiritual focus and as I'm cultivating my inner and outer happiness, I think being centered in that is really important. So I don't know about you, but I think this makes me think about the difference between like a habit and a ritual. Like is it just habit to assume that the way that you see this information or this product or whatever if it has that good vibe and a good feeling and you know, peaceful colors and beautiful people or whatever, you're just kind of assuming based on a million different things that they hire really powerful marketing teams to put together for them, that they have your wellbeing in mind. 12:34                                     But I think we just have to remind ourselves it's a business. I try and live with the spiritual focus. I think sometimes I actually even become a little naive in practicing this, this quality of Brahmacharya which is wisdom. But I don't want to be ignorant to the realities of a purchasing goods because it is a business, right? So I don't know about you, but I think sometimes I've bought things thinking that I was doing the right thing, but you're right. Like I'll bring home a mat and it just falls apart. So I think I have to be very careful of saying, well maybe somebody is trying to do the right thing, but, but unless I am accountable to myself to really do the research, I think it's just, instead of it being a practice, it's more of a habit. It's just, I'm going to kind of default to the idea that, oh, if this major brand said something that it must be really good for me because they're yogis right 13:51                                     Now that's a great point. Because the marketing can fool us. They look very Yogic, shall we say. But you really have to do some research to confirm that. 14:09                                     Right, exactly. And it is a sad, but true for me, it's amazing how all of these challenges become these lessons. I mean, we talk about it all the time, but when I worked for this yoga studio, I assumed because they were running a yoga studio, that the people that were running the studio were ethical and very yoga centered and, even I only worked there part time for a short period of time. I talk about this in my book. It was when I was first diving deeper into yoga because you're right, I've practiced for 40 years, but I've only been a yoga teacher now for about 15. But as I was diving deeper into what do I really want to do with this yoga teaching certificate? I actually considered opening a studio. So I thought I should work at one to see what it's really like. And thank God for me encountering this awful experience. I ended up finding out a lot about myself and a lot about how I wanted to move forward in the yoga community. And that's why I ended up writing a book instead. But at the time it was so shocking to me, Stephanie, they reported to the government that I made like thousands of dollars working for them when I actually hadn't. 15:32                                     So not only did they not pay their teachers, they have these products that were cheap and sourced from bad sources and whatever. And I found that out only because I was working there. And then on top of it, they lied to the government about how much they paid me. I mean, the whole thing just sounds crazy, but I think that's why I'm still talking about it because it left a huge impact on me. And that's why, I think this is kind of an interesting subject. I think we have a choice and, and that's one of the really cool things that yoga teaches, that we are designing our life, that we are accountable for how we move and operate through the world. And obviously everybody wants to do that in a really wonderful, healthy body, mind and spirit. 16:26                                     We got to Brahmacharya I think the next one is, is simplicity, which is Aparigraha. I never say that correctly. I'm trying to say these slowly because I mispronounce them terribly. And a lot of this is not only being moderate and external in outwardly ways, but also the energy that you use in your actions and how you consume is actually defined in this simplicity principle, which I think is really interesting.                                                 The next one is worship of a spiritual goal. And that's Ishvara Pranidanha and that is, is how we remind ourselves and again and again of our spiritual goal. So in other words as I apply it to this we daily practice, I have to kind of use the energy to force myself to evaluate these things. 17:37                                     It's so much easier just to have somebody else tell us what to do. I think this idea of worship of a spiritual goal and practicing  our spiritual goals is we are accountable is the way I interpret this.                                                 The next one is sacrificing the ego which is Satya, but I think that really to have a purity of mind, speech and body of a clarity of thought. I don't know necessarily how it would really apply it to this, but I think it just means that as, as we clean out our own house and our own body, mind and spirit, you want to take care of, of, of how you maintain that. So again, I think it's about am I constantly living the principles in the way that I want to exist in the world. These observances, but I think we're supposed to follow.                                                 The next one is self-discipline, which is Tapas. A lot of people know that word, but that really just same thing, kind of as a reflection of the last one. It means to live a disciplined life. And I think that it's cool that we're kind of accountable and I love it that people look to us as teachers and how we lead by example more than how we lead. And I think the real integrity comes in when you not only talk these things but if you walk the walk too.                                                 The next one we have a couple more is a reading, which is Svadhyaya. And that's really just like a mantra or a meditation. And I think sometimes keeping us on the spiritual path. It connects us in a way that makes us like spiritual victors. I feel like the sense of community that I'm talking about, that if all of us came together and just even try to couple of these things that we're talking about today that we could really effect change on a global scale. I think that's just really amazing.                                                 The last one is a contentment or Santosha. And really that's just being satisfied with one has and of course in a state of gratitude, I think you operate from a place of, wow, do I really need more? Do I need more yoga pants? Do I need more stuff? Do I need more products? Now I've found that sometimes I'll dedicate the idea that instead of going out and buying something else, I'll spend that money to invest on either, I don't know, like a online class on yoga philosophy or something. Now this just applies to yoga, but I don't know about you, but the number one thing that people ask me all the time is, how can I take what I'm doing on my mat off the mat? So I think that it's really just about how are we conducting ourselves in the world in a way that really feels like it's part of a bigger yoga community. So that's one of the reasons I think it's cool. You and I are even talking, it is a global conversation now and I just love that. 21:05                                     I think I'm going to divert a little bit here, but it is a question that keeps coming up, which is obviously yoga has a real basis in philosophy. It's not just an exercise, but how do you recommend or do you yourself bring that philosophy onto the mat other than how we act and how we model. I certainly think that's important, but I'm wondering, a lot of people kind of want to share it and yet it seems to be a rather difficult thing in some ways. 21:41                                     No, I think that's a really good question. For me. I think it's so easy to cut to the chase when I just asked myself, how you do yoga is how you do life. So as I'm so grateful that I've been able to practice yoga now for 40 years. I've obviously gone through a lot of different phases, this is my healthiest lifelong companion and my buddy and my teacher and my go to because I have been able to develop self-awareness and trust my intuition. But more than that I am constantly still unfolding in a really cool organic way. So for instance, the other day I went to a yoga class and I was frustrated because I felt like the teacher was doing dangerous sequencing. So I had to ask myself, okay, first off, am I frustrated in the rest of my life and where's that coming from?          Or more than that, it's sometimes really challenging for me to speak up and I had to ask myself is it, do I want to try and talk to this person or do I just do my deal and leave or, so I think there's so much investigation of the philosophy that while you're on your mat, you can, if you want to use it as a tool for self-awareness and to reveal to you aspects of your life. Sometimes it's just a matter of asking myself, well, am I getting what I need? I've recently discovered that I was actually doing yoga that wasn't as physically easy or as physically challenging as I needed because I had dropped into too much of the philosophy or the other yummy aspects. And I had to ask myself, wow, if you want to practice yoga forever, even if it's just yin or, something on the physical side, I can be able to move and do what I want and move through the world in a way that I feel good. and without the physical practice it is a body, mind and spirit. So I like all three components. Some people, especially in the west, it's super-fitness oriented right now. You can easily fall into an imbalance of even the things that you're trying to do. 24:35                                     I think it is. I think it is an interesting concept that teachers have to get across that yes, I am your guide, but you are in charge of your yoga on the mat and you really have to go in deep and think, is this what I want and should I do this this way or can I do it another way ? I think that is important because I think sometimes people aren't used to that gentle way of guiding. They're used to you do this now and do four push-ups or whatever. 25:15                                     I think you're so right, it's so much easier just to have somebody else tell you what to do. And sometimes I actually want to go to a class because of that. I just don't want to think today, I just want somebody else to tell me what to do. But what I've found is that there's kind of no escaping it as you're just there by yourself. You're right. A good teacher will present what they have to share that day. And it's really up to you to whether or not you take something with you. Right. 25:50                                     I have one question at the end: , is there anything that we have talked about or that you want to go into more depth with that you want the listeners to know or something that we haven't covered at all? 26:07                                     I think what you're saying about this idea of the responsibility of teachers is kind of interesting and as you just said it, I thought we do sometimes too, I think Yoga teachers are set to a yummy, lovey, huggy bear kind of group of really nice people. And I think sometimes too, we need to challenge ourselves that people really are listening to us. And perhaps maybe talk about something like this in a class or you know, if you have a website or blog or you send out a newsletter, I just think it would be interesting. You don't have to support or discourage somebody from any certain company or product or whatever. But I think until something personally happened to me, I didn't start thinking about this. And because I also have a friend of mine who is an ethical fashion, he's really at the forefront of this. 27:09                                     And I said to them all, of course I'd like to buy clothes that are ethically sourced and the people aren't in a sweatshop somewhere and they're treated well and whatever. I said, but my God, we're so busy and there's so much information out there. How do I find those things out? He said, well, there's a lot of really good people that are trying to do that. Same with Yoga teachers. I think there's a lot of really good people on the planet that are serving others by doing this. So maybe this is just something else that you would introduce. 27:40                                     Thank you so much; it's really been fascinating. I've never thought of applying those 10 principles to environmental good. They are so all encompassing, aren't they? That we can really use them to think our way through almost any problem that we might have. 28:10                                     I think so. And I think everybody will have their own interpretation of these. You know, as I, as I talked through them, you'll have a different interpretation too, which I think is actually a really beautiful aspect of this. So that's awesome. Thank you so much for having me. 28:26                                     You're welcome. I really enjoyed this. It was a really different way to think about yoga and what are our responsibilities might be. There is quite a responsibility to being a teacher I think, and introducing yoga to people. 28:42                                     I feel really lucky I've been able to do this. I hope that your listeners will check out my book and if you want to find me for more information or if you want to send me a question or are you hate what I say or you want to connect I am on Stephanie spence.com. 29:46                                     So thank you so much Stephanie. I just, I thought it was a really interesting podcast that is a really new way to look at philosophy. For some reason philosophy seems to be coming up a lot with the podcast guests these days and I think that's probably a good thing. 30:00                                     Thank you so much. Have a super rest of your day.                                                 Contacts:                                                 Instagram: Stephanie Yogini                                                 Facebook: Spence yoga wisdom.                                                 Twitte:r Stephanieyogayoginic.                                                 Book: Yoga wisdom: Warrior tails inspiring you on and off your mat. It is also a 2018 Nautilus book award winner. And you can get it at Amazon and all those places that we usually go to get our books.

How To Manage Big Milestones After Losing Your Mom – with Guest Christie Fiori Welcome to this episode of Life After Losing Mom With Kat Bonner. We’re joined by blogger Christie Fiori, of the blog Healing Through Grief with Christie Lynn, who shares her story of losing her mom and how she’s coping with her loss. If you’re a daughter who has lost your mom, or you know someone else who is going through it, this episode shines light onto a dark topic and opens the lines of communication for those who are dealing with grieving their mom. What We’re Talking About This episode is full of Christie’s wisdom that she’s found after going through her own healing process. Listen along as we touch on these topics: Stages of Grief For Christie, her sense of loss kicked in while her mom was still alive and battling cancer. She saw her dad go through a very different process and she shares her own journey in realizing that everyone has their own way of dealing with the stages of grief. Dealing With Milestones Weddings, babies, graduation, even starting a new job are all situations that bring grief flooding back. Christie tells us about her experience of getting through life's big moments without her mom. Accepting Reality There’s no way around it – life goes on without mom, whether you want it to be that way or not. Christie’s advice shows us how we can accept the new normal – life without mom. Self-Expression For Christie, blogging about her grief was therapeutic and gave her a chance to share her story with others. The reaction from the online community was not at all what she expected. Listen along for Christie’s moving story and advice for anyone who is dealing with the tragic experience of losing your mom. You can also follow her on Facebook and Instagram in the links below, and as always, follow the podcast’s Facebook and Instagram, and click to subscribe. https://m.facebook.com/christielynnnnn/
https://www.instagram.com/healingthroughgrief/ https://www.facebook.com/katgriefcoach https://www.facebook.com/groups/lifeafterlosingmom
 https://www.instagram.com/katgriefcoach/ Transcription: Speaker 1: 00:00 And I think until you accept it, you're not able to even start healing. Speaker 2: 00:04 You're listening to life after losing mom with me, Kat Bonner. On this podcast, you'll hear from other women who have lost their mom and discover the exact coping strategies that you need to get through the day and be in the best place you've ever been. Don't miss another episode of life after losing mom. Subscribe today. More information can be found at katbonner.com/podcast and if you'd like to join a group of like-minded women, head to Facebook and search for the life after losing mom community. Speaker 1: 00:31 All right. Um, so when I was in college or freshman in college, my mom got diagnosed with cancer. It was super, super set in. Um, one day she came downstairs and the whole right side of her body was numb. Um, they sent her to the hospital and it turns out she had metastatic melanoma and it had already spread everywhere. So basically one day my life was completely normal. The next, um, it was changed completely. Um, she got pretty sick pretty fast. She had a few months that we're okay. Um, but I mean cancer is cancer and she really wasn't doing all that great any of the time. I'm in about seven months. Exactly. From the time that she was diagnosed, she died. Speaker 2: 01:15 Wow. Okay. Sorry. I want to make sure you were done. I was thinking, Speaker 1: 01:18 thinking about if I wanted to add more Speaker 2: 01:22 it's okay. Yeah, there's, I mean all there really is to that. Um, I know that you are pretty open on your blog about, you know, how your mom pass and that sort of thing, like the type of cancer and if I remember correctly it was melanoma. So was your mom like attaining bed user? If you don't mind me asking, like did she get out in the sun a lot? Yeah. Speaker 1: 01:46 So my mom was actually like the picture of melanoma, um, before she got sick. Like it actually would be a joke. Like I would say like melanoma must not exist because if it did you would have it. And that sounds so stupid now thinking back, but like we had a tanning bed in our house. Like, my mom was a Tan Aholic. Um, in the summer she was outside all of the time. She loved being Tan. Like people used to joke like, oh my God, you and your mom must not even be the same race. Cause like she was like a dark brown all the time. Like she loved being Tan. She thought she liked being burnt. She'd lay outside until she was burned because she knew it would turn to tan in the winter. She'd be in the tanning bed all the time. Um, she actually had melanoma removed from her arm years and years prior that my parents just never even told me about, cause I was young and it wasn't supposed to be anything serious. She was supposed to get it removed and that was it. But apparently it wasn't it in that whole time, it may have been continuing to spread elsewhere and that's when she got diagnosed two years later. Speaker 2: 02:49 Wow. Yeah. I mean, it's so funny because I think too, like you live up north and I don't, I hear about, you know, that seasonal affective disorder thing and you know, I don't know if your mom had that, but it's just crazy to think how, you know, something that seems so small as melanoma can really not be small. You know? I mean it just goes to show to take everything really seriously. So I guess, you know, you kind of like sort of joked about it per se as you were younger, but was that thought ever in the back of your mind? Like, seriously that your mom might get skin cancer? Speaker 1: 03:34 I mean, I guess like you just never think something like that's gonna happen to you. And I never really knew. Like people always, like we'll say, had said to me when my mom was sick, like, oh, it's just skin cancer, but like it's not. And to me that's always what I thought. Like, yeah, even if she did get skin cancer, skin cancer, so we'll get it removed and she'd be fine. So nothing serious really ever crossed my mind because until my mom got sick, I didn't even know metastatic melanoma was a thing. I didn't even know people were dying. There was a version of skin cancer or dying from like, that was all completely new to me. Like me and my dad were doing research online after she got diagnosed and we had had no clue that that was even a thing. Speaker 2: 04:12 Wow. Yeah. I mean, I guess it definitely, like I, you know, you pointed out where you never really think that it's going to happen to you, but I guess it just goes to show how, I don't know if serious anything can be. So how do, I mean, I'm assuming now you probably hae all tanning beds, um, has your view on that really changed because you're the, I think you're pretty fair skin too, if I Speaker 1: 04:40 yeah. Yeah. So actually before all of this, like I was a Tanner too. Um, I, my mom would drive me to the tanning salon. Um, I tanned in the winter all the time. I hated being pale too. In the summer I would obviously burned pretty easily because I'm very light skinned. Um, now like people know to not even mention the word chanting better around me. Like it makes me so angry. I can't even fathom why people would do it after, especially after hearing my mom's story and like what we went through. But then I guess part of me has to understand that I never thought it would happen to me, so why should anybody else think it's going to happen to them? Um, but it does make me really mad. Speaker 2: 05:21 Yeah. I personally despise tanning beds. I think they're like just, I mean I'm all for, you know, loving the skin you're in. I know it sounds really cliche and stupid, but especially knowing if you're like already susceptible to, you know, getting some type of skin cancer or skin ailment or I don't know anything crazy like that. I'm not doctor, but I'm like, okay, I'm really not. I already know I'm like super white so I'm definitely not going to do this. Um, right. So would you say you like, what's the court word? Cod and like had any anticipatory grief when your mom got sick or was it all just kind of too fast? Too furious. Speaker 3: 06:07 Okay. Speaker 1: 06:07 Oh yeah. So it's interesting because I think me and my dad handles it really different and I think that I was grieving my mom while she was sick. Um, I think I saw it a lot. I'm definitely like a glass half empty kind of person. Like I always prepare for the worst, whereas my dad's super optimistic and always is thinking like the best case scenario of everything. And I spent a lot of time, my mom being sick, like reading up, like what, what it's like when someone starts to die or like the symptoms that somebody is dying or all the statistics of how long people live with metastatic melanoma. Whereas I think when my mom died, my dad was like, oh my God, like this is it, it's done. Whereas I had been getting to that point and really going through [inaudible] grief for a long time. Speaker 1: 06:53 Um, because in my head somewhere it was, I had already lost my mom. Like so much was changing about her that even though like of course I would have loved for her to be the miracle, it's hard. I don't really think that way. I kind of more of a, I don't wanna say a rational thinker, but I just, in my head I knew that this was going to be the outcome whether I want it to be or not. So I think that that actually helped me in my grief process more so because I was already months ahead of the game when my mom died. Speaker 2: 07:23 Yeah. I, I mean I like how you mentioned that it's as hard because in a way, man, you know, you can never really prepare yourself for this, but almost, and I would never really have recommend people to be a glass half empty kind of person. But sometimes you do have to be realistic. Right. And I could definitely see how that was very possible, you know, in your situation. All right. So would you say like based on this conversation, I'm thinking like, I guess, right, like when your mom was sick, like the hardest part was like maybe realizing that she was gonna pass, but like, you know, after that like since she's been gone, has the way she gone, you know, really been hard for you or do you got to mask ink? Speaker 3: 08:24 Yeah. Speaker 2: 08:25 Like what has been like you chagas you struggled with, you know, when she was sick, like struggled with actually like her being sick and the realization that this is real. But is that still, you know, one of the hardest parts of your grief process or is it had just spend like completely transformative? I think, Speaker 1: 08:44 um, like while she was sick, what was, it was super hard in the sense that everything we would do, I would have in the back of my mind like this is the last time we're going to do this. Even I didn't actually want that to happen. And I had also in another part of my mind like, okay, maybe, maybe she will live a little longer. Like, maybe we will be another time we do this. But that was always something that I was thinking of and that was in my head during those times. But then after she died it was wow, that really was the last time. And each new thing that happened became then like the first without my mom. So like one, they kind of like, it blends together in a way. I was grieving her when she was still there when it was the last time I was getting to do those things, even though I was in the moment with her. But then as time has gone on and it was the first time I had to have a mother's Day without her holiday, without her go on a vacation without her, it was a whole new heart, like compared to like at least those times where I knew it was the last one. I still at least had that last one. Do you know what I mean? Speaker 2: 09:47 Yeah. That definitely makes perfect sense. So kind of seeming like, you know, milestones have been a big struggle with just, I mean, even when your mom was sick, you kind of prepared yourself, it seemed like for a being the last so and so with her and you can kind of sort of mentally like prepare yourself for that. But when they're gone it's like, how the heck do I do this? Speaker 1: 10:13 Right, right. Like in my head I had thought I had it all. Like I was figuring it out as I went. And then when it actually came down to it and new things that happened out there, it really was like a whole new version of grief. Like although I did some grieving while she was alive, it was nothing compared to how you grieve after your mom's died. Speaker 2: 10:33 Yeah, 100%. Um, so is there like a certain milestone that you have really struggled with? I mean, Mother's Day is mother's Day, so I don't really consider that. Speaker 1: 10:48 Right. So that's just the worst day. Speaker 2: 10:51 Oh, pretty much. But is there like a certain like, I dunno, like maybe like graduation. I don't think you're married or have kids. So that's, you know, not necessarily relevant but yeah, even like the one that was after marriage. Yeah, when Speaker 1: 11:04 I graduated Undergrad or Grad School. But undergrad was harder obviously cause it was the first really big thing and my mom got sick and died when I was in college and there was a point where I didn't even think I would finish college after that. Like that was the last thing on my mind and I still did graduate in four years. So that was like such a big deal just because not only like everybody in the world was like, oh my God, how did you do that? Like how have you managed to get through this? But it was the first big thing without her. And I think it was even harder because it was the first time I saw my dad express any kind of emotion that it was the first thing of mine that he was going through without her. So on a day that like we should have been so happy, like his daughter's graduating college, I'm graduating college, we were like, we couldn't be the same kind of happy because that person was missing that we should be sharing it with. And who started that kind of journey with us since she was alive when I started college, but not when I finished. Speaker 2: 12:04 Yeah, that, that makes a lot of sense. So you said yeah, it was your freshman year. I believe we that path yet Speaker 1: 12:10 sick my freshman year and then she died the fall of my sophomore year. Speaker 2: 12:14 Okay. So definitely. Wow. So we'll still, you know, pretty fresh when you graduated college too. And I feel like we're Undergrad is always harder than Grad school. I mean, I haven't gotten my master's, but just because you like kind of have more of a choice when it comes to Undergrad and masters, you're just like, all right, I'm going to go where I get accepted at this point. So the parents just seem to be like more involved with that. Speaker 1: 12:42 Right. And that's always the first big so of like being an adult. Speaker 2: 12:46 Yeah. And not to mention too, I mean undergrad cubs for Grad schools. So if your mom passes when you're an Undergrad, that's going to be like the first graduation feet without her. Um, so it just all kind, it's like, all right, you know, I made it through Undergrad graduation. Like when it comes time to get a master's or whatever, like the next one should be pretty like, I'll welcome the park compared to this one. Speaker 1: 13:13 Right. Speaker 2: 13:14 So, okay. Well I like that you definitely brought up graduation. Um, how did you like cope with, I guess just not just milestones in general. I mean not just, sorry, graduation specifically, but just in milestones in general, you know, and not having your mom. I think that's just something that a lot of women, I know that I've struggled with it. So when you like honor her, I guess, Speaker 1: 13:41 I think it's one of those things that like you can I say it all, I read about it all the time. At least regular days or regular days. Like you have good days, you have bad days, you go exit as time goes on and you go, you have less bad days and it does seem to get easier as you start to adjust to this new reality. Um, but milestones are one of those things that like always bring it back to the center of your mind. Like you could have had a good day, six months straight and then all of a sudden you started a new job or you graduate or something, something has little at something little or something as big as you're getting engaged or you're going to get married. Like those things are never going to be as happy as they were. For somebody who hasn't been through all of that, especially as like a daughter with a mom, like your mom plays such a huge role in really everything in your life that I think that that's something that just never truly will get easier. So I think just finding a way to try to incorporate her into everything. Like I had pictures of her on my graduation cap or like when I get married. I'm sure I will find plenty of ways to incorporate her into that too. But it's, I think it's just important to accept that never gonna be normal for someone who's gone through something like that at a way younger age than they should and still has all those milestones left. Like it's just never going to be. Speaker 2: 15:01 Yeah, you're very right. Um, and I mean it's definitely important to find ways to honor her. And I mean that's, you know, very relative to the person. But I think too, just finding that like little something, it's crazy how that in itself is like April to help you grieve and to help you cope with, you know, these milestones. And like I said, I'm sure having a wedding and having children is completely different with doctor mom because that's a very like mother daughter centered, you know, experience. But milestones are still milestones to a certain extent at the end of the day. And it's just, it's definitely important to just try to, I mean, mind over matter. I know it sounds really stupid, but like doing whatever you can, having like a positive outlook and not like dwelling that, you know, letting it, you know, ruin your milestone. Like even if it's something, I mean I guess the milestones can be bad or you know, negative but right, Speaker 1: 16:15 right. And that's a whole nother, another issue. Speaker 2: 16:18 Exactly. But just making the effort and being intentional about like trying to just make it one that is memorable and positive and I think I mean milestones or you know, we're going to happen for the rest of your life, but I do think that it becomes less of a chore and like you have to try less to be positive because you just kind of are because you're used to it as you go through milestones. Speaker 1: 16:47 Right. I think the biggest thing I could do, like really for anyone is you have to just accept that this is your reality and like I think that sometimes that comes off harsh when I say that to people and people like give me that like, like field start feeling bad for me. And it's like, okay, I get it. You feel bad for me? You can't imagine what I'm going through, which is my least favorite phrase because I would never have imagined at either. And what other choice do you have? And I find myself saying lets people all the time, but the point is is your life is going to go on whether you want it to the way it is or not. Like that's what it is. So there's two options. You can either accept it and try to make the best of it or you could let it just ruin everything. So I think the more and more of accepting that, yeah, this sucks and it's not fair. And I don't know why it had to be my family, but at the end of the day like this is my life. Speaker 2: 17:39 Oh my gosh, you're my soul sister. I love this. It's so true though. And like especially, I mean I guess I, I don't even, I couldn't even count how many milestones I've been through it that my mom like, I don't really think that's relevant. But I mean eventually and I feel like to is with the Undergrad, like or even graduating college, they're normally pretty close to mother's Day and you're like, oh great, Oh la, this is awful. Right. But just really separating like the two or even, I dunno, just like, yeah, having that mindset and realizing that like, you know, this is the way that it's going to be. Like, especially when it comes to milestones like okay, I'm not going to have my mom here for this and like you know that in advance, so what am I going to do about it? I mean, Speaker 1: 18:36 right. And that's, and that's not being said that's ever going to be easy, but I feel like for the rest of my life these things are always going to be hard and I'm always going to have my little pity party beforehand afterwards. Like that's all part of it. But you have to like differential. Exactly. All the lines somewhere of like, am I going to let this destroy me in ruin this moment or am I going to try to say, look at how far I've come since my mom died. Like, my mom would be so proud. This is awesome. Speaker 2: 19:06 Yeah, and I think it's very important to, like you said, to realize like how proud your mom would be a view because we often times at least I have, you know, oftentimes forgotten that and just thought about like, oh, like I wish she could be here, Yada Yada, Yada. But I mean like people should be proud of themselves for whatever milestone they're going through. Like just to get to that milestone regardless if they had to really do anything to get to the milestone. I mean, you made it through another day in the life of grieving the loss of your mom. I mean that's something still pretty commendable. So regardless of what it is, it's definitely something, I mean, I'm bad about it too, but it's stuff that's been like I need to instill in my brain, hey, like my mom should be proud of me or my mom is proud of me. I should be proud of me. So let's make this a good milestone despite the situation. And then eventually it just gets easier. You know? It's like, I mean, you kind of have to have the same mindset like each time one of them arises. So hopefully it would become, you know, more second nature. It's still at, and I hate the word easy because I wouldn't say like not having your mom gets easier but you just get more use to it so that it's easier, if that makes sense. Speaker 1: 20:40 Yeah. No, you just started to adjust to your new normal I think. Speaker 2: 20:45 Yeah, very much so. So facet of it. I think managing the grief, it's gets easier as you manage it, right. You go through life because that just kind of the nature of the beast. Um, so when you were mentioning like, you know, getting married or having children, have you thought about ways that you would, you know, honor your mom or cope with those days? Like I'm personally a terrified to ever get married or have kids cause I don't know how I'm going to do without my mom and I know that's not the right mindset, but Speaker 1: 21:22 no, you're right. Somebody actually answer, ask me that question. Um, on a question answer I did on my Instagram a few weeks back and more so like, do you think you'll ever get married because I can't even imagine getting married. And I started thinking about it and I'm like, you know, there's a reason why I'm the way I am. And I always say like, I'm in no rush to get married. Like I'll get married one day maybe or not like I'm okay if I don't have kids. And like I never really, I wasn't like that when my mom was alive. Like I definitely always saw myself like at least getting married and having like a kid or something. But like now it's so hard for me to even wrap my head around that. Like I'm at the age where my friends have started to get married and have kids are here like a few here and there. Speaker 1: 22:07 But like I've been in weddings and my cousins are getting married and having babies and I'm watching them all do it with their moms. And I'm like, Holy Shit, what am I supposed to do? Like my dad is great. Like, literally, he's the best, but I, I can't even like get through a conversation with my aunt who I'm super close with helping her plan my cousin's wedding without me like wanting to throw a tantrum and screen because it's just like, I can't even imagine like not having my mom to do that. So it's hard for me to even get there and picture what that day would be like because I don't even know, like, again, even try to fathom doing it. Speaker 4: 22:45 Yeah. Speaker 2: 22:46 Oh my God. I'm like, so glad you mentioned that. I feel so much less alone and it gets weird. Like I'll look on Pinterest though, you know, ways to honor your mom at your wedding. And it seems so easy. And I have, you know, this crazy idea, like I basically have my dream wedding and plan that probably either never going to happen in nonexistent. I'm like, Oh yeah, like I'm going to sing a song for my mom. Like I'm gonna write one. I don't know, just something super crazy. But when it boils down to it, like no matter where I'm at in my grief, like a mom, if I'm in the best place, like ever, there is no way, I don't think I would ever be able to like emotionally handle that. And that is the day that I supposed to bring such joy and oh boy, how to make that joyful will be very interesting. Right? And if the time comes, but ah, just like, I don't know dude. Speaker 1: 23:49 Right. And maybe if you're, when, if I was in that situation and close to the point where I was going to be getting married and maybe it would be different and maybe just because I'm nowhere near that place in my life, I think that way. But I've watched, I've been in three weddings now, all of which their mom's played a big role in everything leading up to the wedding. And, but then I watched my cousin got married without her dad and how, how hard that was in a whole way. So, I don't know if I could say like one loss is worse than the other, but I just think like in my reality, it's hard for me to imagine doing it as all I know. Speaker 2: 24:25 Yeah, absolutely. Oh my word. I get emotional life just at weddings in general. Yeah, me too. I hate that I'm not even super close with. Yeah. And I'm like, okay, if I'm emotional at a wedding of like a family friend that I see once a year, like Oh my word and, and I'm not saying I wish that like, you know, I had been closer to those like milestones in my life when my mom passed, but I feel like, and I could be wrong, but like for a lot of us who were, you know, were maybe younger, I'm like, if our mom passed closer to those times, like if I was already engaged, like my mom had passed, I feel like I would just be so focused. Like I would've been so focused to own the wedding that it might not have affected me that much. And that could be very wrong, you know? But that's just the way that I think about it. Like since it's been years since my mom passed and I'm already like on the road to healing like, uh, weddings, not anywhere in my brain. Speaker 2: 25:42 I was about to say, okay, that definitely makes sense. Um, and have a kids, Oh my word, I'm not even gonna go there. Uh, yeah, that, that needs episode. Exactly. I'm like, Oh, don't even know if I want to have children for reasons I'm not going to get into. But especially having, oh gosh, having kids about your mom, that just sounds really, really, really terrible. So I hope one day, like I can get out of that mindset almost because I definitely think it is a mindset. But yeah, and like you said, you know, I was never this way either before I lost my mom and I don't like, you know, to blame her death on the things that I believe. But at the end of the day, like me not wanting to get married and me not wanting to have kids, I really think manifested itself from losing my mom. Speaker 2: 26:39 Right. And that's something, you know, important to acknowledge that obviously a lot of women don't understand, but I'm not even going to bring that voice into this, but a lot of men especially to understand that. So I'm just like, all right dude, like you know, it is what it is. But having, I don't know, I just hope, you know, like our mindsets and just the mindset of people, you know who feel this way too. I'm not saying it's a bad thing if like we feel this way forever, but I hope it doesn't turn into something bad and I don't really know how to like control that to where you know, me not wanting to get married becomes like damaging. And I'm like talking myself out of like getting married when I could very well be dating somebody who I could be married to. Does that make sense? Like I have no idea where that one is. What are your thoughts on that? I guess I just liked it Speaker 1: 27:50 that and when you get to that point, maybe it'll be different. And I mean, and maybe things have changed and if I do get married, maybe it's not that I'm going to have a big elaborate traditional wedding. Maybe, um, maybe you just need, we just need to work for whatever version of your own, create your own version of that day. Not maybe not what was always in your head because that's just too much about them without your mom. But you could still do that, be happy, be married, have a light, but you maybe can have your own version of that. Speaker 2: 28:24 Yeah, that's very true. Um, so let's see where milestones, like going through mouse was doctor mom, what really piqued your interest in blogging? Click. When did you start that? Speaker 5: 28:42 So it was like a total accident. Um, I was in a relationship for quite a while after my mom and I broke up. My mom and I broke up after my mom died. We broke up. Um, maybe a couple of years later, I don't even know all the years start to blend together. Speaker 2: 28:58 That's what you were dating a guy and broke up. Speaker 5: 29:01 Yeah. So when we broke up, it was a few years after my mom died. It was terrible breakup, super unhealthy, um, uh, an unhealthy relationship. Um, terrible breakup. Like I was just a hot mess. And that was my first real version of grief after my mom died. Like it was losing this other person who was so important in my life after my mind that had filled so many of those voids for me in different ways. And Speaker 1: 29:27 okay, Speaker 5: 29:27 just took, filled, spilled so much of that. So I would just in a really, really bad place and didn't know what to do with myself. And I was scrolling through Facebook one day and I saw an ad for this site, um, pucker mob. I don't know if you heard of it. It's very started blogging years and years ago. A pucker mob. Yes. So, oh yeah, there was an ad for them, like, um, like that you could just share your posts and get them published on this site and whatever, whatever. And I was like, I'm going to write something about my mom dying. Like I always liked to write and I wrote, I wrote this blog post, I post or I shared it with them, they posted it to their page, I shared it on Facebook and I remember I went downstairs to my dad and I was like, I just wrote this blog for this site called pucker mob, like, and I'm telling you about it. Speaker 5: 30:17 And he's like, what? Like he did, what's a blog like? I'm like, no, like read it. Like tell me what you think. And he was like, wow, that's really good. But like people are going to see that. And I'm like, I dunno, I dunno, but like I felt so good doing it. So I started writing then what it was like to like go through a breakup without my mom and then what it was like to date without my mom. And I started like channeling my breakup to losing my mom and writing. And one day I woke up in this page on Facebook had shared my article who had like 200,000 followers and all of a sudden like thousands of people were reading my article and commenting on it. And sharing it. And I'm like, oh my God, Holy Shit. Like people actually care about what I have to say. Speaker 5: 30:58 And one thing led to another, I made this Facebook page, it started off as just like my name and I would link it at the bottom of blog posts and people would like it. And then next thing I know, there's thousands of people who are reading my writing and people messaging me from all over the world. And I started, I ended up making my own website. We're actually, um, we know nobody liked rights were pucker mob anymore. There's actually a lot of controversy with them then trying to steal our work and um, use it without our names on it and all sorts of stuff that I won't even get into. So that's when I broke out and wrote my own page. I made my own blog page and it's just really just taken off from there and become like the greatest coping mechanism ever. Um, people, I get messages every day like how people are thanking me for how much I helped them and save their life. And like that's literally what my blog has done for me. So it's just a bonus that I'm helping other people. Like it's, it's now it's become so great to see that I can help other people, but I really started it just to help myself through like a difficult time and find a distraction and outlet. Speaker 2: 32:07 That's so funny. I love it. I feel like a lot of these things do happen by accident and like it's kind of funny cause the breakup almost was you know, a milestone and you go through something Super, Oh yeah, let's say detrimental like Speaker 5: 32:21 the bad milestones, like hard. Then you have to go through without your mom, which are like, there's no way to find positivity that's just like an absolute double negative. Absolutely. But if that didn't happen now I don't know if I would say I would never have written anything but maybe I wouldn't have and maybe that was something that needed, I needed to hit a rock bottom and then find this outlet that's become like such a huge part of my life and something. Then this community I've created that I honestly don't even know how has become, I just hit, um, 20,000 likes on Facebook the other day and night was like, it blows my mind at 20,000 people want to read what I have to write and it actually helps them. Oh my God, that was not exactly, Speaker 2: 33:08 I mean, it's really crazy to think too that there's like 20,000 women. Well, I would think that they're, you know, or 20,000 women who are in our positions. I'm like, oh, okay. Like I thought I was so alone when this happened, but I'm so hot. I mean, granted in my immediate friend group, yeah, it was probably alone, but let's be honest. Right? Even just from the time that like I was in high school when they're going off to college, I mean I could count on two hands literally in four years how many girls that I went to college with who either lost a mom or I lost a dad while they were in college and I was just like a, my mind is blown. I mean I went to an all women's college so that was kind of a given, but still it just like, and I making something you didn't, Speaker 5: 33:54 you never would have really I think noticed if you didn't go through it. Like I now notice like people who I went to high school with her, I went to college, I'll see it on Facebook and I'll reach out and send them a message. But like if my mom hadn't died, like I don't think that that would've been something that phased me. Like how many people actually go through this? And you're right, my blog is a perfect example and there might be people of all different ages, like I don't know how many of those people lost their mom young. But the point is is there's a lot of people out there who are still struggling with that same loss. Whereas in our own world and our own friend group, like in my community, like I was the girl that's mom died. Like everyone's friends, parents, I'd walk into their house and for years they look at me with that. Like, oh my God, I feel so bad for you face that I just can't stand. But like that's like who we were in our little worlds and like from my little town, not a ton of people had gone through something like that. But in the grand scheme of things, so many people do. Speaker 2: 34:56 Yeah, absolutely. And like, I dunno, just to think that you know, you're able to help people who might not think that, you know, they might've been in your shoes, you know, not know anybody who has been through the same thing. Like being a small town in essence. Speaker 5: 35:13 He's like, I get messages like that all the time. Like I had no idea that there were this many people who could follow a page that have all been through this. Like I literally thought I had no one in there is all these people commenting on your posts that are saying the same thing as me and you're writing the thoughts in my head and it's, it's cool. Like it really is. Speaker 2: 35:34 Yeah. I had like, it's unfathomable. I mean to, and to think that there's like, they think the same thing and they feel the same way and not everybody is able to definitely, you know, put their feelings out there the way that you are and everybody is able to, you know, write about it and speak about it. And it's almost like, okay, seeing somebody who has found their outlet and s found, you know, some source of healing, you know, wherever, however, however you know, that was, it's like, okay, you know, it makes me want to go out there and do it too, regardless of, you know, how I do it and you see that it really is possible, right. Because I love you just pause. Um, because it's like how, I mean, it's so easy to get stuck, you know, in your way isn't, I know to, you know, when you go through milestones or you know, those bad things where you wish your mom was there at the end of the day, it's still brings your grief back and it's still, it's like, okay, just a constant reminder. You know that your mom isn't there and it just goes to show sometimes, you know you have to hit rock bottom, you have to go through something pretty bad without your mom, for you to start your healing process. And I know that's not an easy thing to realize but things much worse than what they are. Speaker 2: 37:15 You're right. And it's like things weren't really that bad. Well I guess when bad things happen it's like it's not the bad thing that happened. It's just so bad because it reminded me so much that my mom is not here to help me through it. Speaker 1: 37:34 Right. And something that you always had turned to your mom for in the past. I think that was exactly, Speaker 2: 37:41 but once you get through that it's like, okay I got through this. I can go ahead and I can get through anything. Right. So it's, do you find yourself like just blogging when you know you like want to blog or when you feel called to like stare like a schedule? I mean I feel like it's just hard cause grief in general is so like unpredictable, Speaker 1: 38:10 right? Greif has definitely not on the schedule, which his why. Um, my blogs are all over the place. Like one, one week you'll see I broke five times and then I won't write for three weeks and I'll just like reshare older posts here and there. But like when I get an idea like they come whenever, um, something, so smaller conversation with somebody or conversation I have with a patient at work, like triggers Speaker 5: 38:36 an idea of something I want to write about and I will just put a note in my phone and then as soon as I can get to a computer or at least just type up a draft in my notepad, I do. Um, it happens a lot when I'm working out. Um, when I'm meeting with a patient at work, um, a lot of inopportune times that my brain's working, but I can't like sit down and write right at that moment. So I always just have to like make a note of it and then go back and try to like revisit those feelings. But no, I definitely never plan what I'm going to write. It just whenever something comes to my head, Speaker 2: 39:09 I think that's important because it literally just goes to show how like you kept playing grief. I mean, I know people probably know that, but to actually have like a platform centered around grief and it's just like, okay, today I'm going to write about grief is very much so, you know, saying what's on your mind and saying how you feel, you know, Yada Yada Yada. Speaker 5: 39:33 Right. And so it wasn't happening right. When you, um, think of it like you'd be doing it, like it wouldn't be as authentic. It wouldn't like when I write, I just write as like what I'm thinking about at that moment. If you said to me, hey, write about this, I could do it, but it wouldn't be the same because it wouldn't be something I was feeling at that time. Speaker 2: 39:54 Exactly. And people would be definitely be able to tell. Um, and that's not really going to help people in their grief process. I mean, come on, it's just going to be like stage, so, Speaker 5: 40:06 right. So I've always from the beginning like made it a point to like just be super authentic. Like I will write posts when I'm, I've had a terrible week and that's why I haven't wrote or like to really just show everybody that I'm human. Like sure I'm a decent writer and people like to read what I write and I have this website and stuff now. But that doesn't mean that there's anything like nice about grief. Like it's all super real feelings and I wrote about the other stuff I go through outside of grief and how it all kind of turns back because the reality is like this is my life, this is your life, this is all of these people's lives and it's not pretty. It's easy. So I'm not going to try to sugarcoat it and make it seem like it is. Speaker 2: 40:54 Exactly. That's 100% the worst thing you can do. So let's see. I guess my last question, you know about blogging that I could ask, when you first started off to do, find it like hard, I guess to put your thoughts on paper or did you find that it took you a long time to do that? You know, has it gotten easier in that sense as time has gone on? Speaker 5: 41:24 Yeah, so writing has always been like my natural way of communicating. Um, I've always written, well, I've always journaled after my mom died, I journaled a lot Speaker 1: 41:34 after me and my ex broke up. I journaled a lot, so I always kind of used writing. I just never did it in a blog sense. I've always been able to like articulate words together, better writing than I am talking. I can just, I just, I've always expressed myself better writing, so it comes so naturally. Like I get an idea and I could write my own the whole blog posts in five minutes and go back and read it and be like, Holy Shit, where did that come from? Because it just, it just comes out. Like I, I was trying to explain all of those feelings talking. You would say, what did you just say? Like it would make no sense just like a bunch of jumble in my head, but it comes out when I write. Speaker 2: 42:12 Yeah. And that's, that's very important I think for people to like, you know, as they're figuring out what their outlet is, you know, and their grief journey or just figuring out ways, I guess to really express emotions. I think when people come, like when they think about that, they're like, oh, like there's only writing or talking. And I'm like, no, there's definitely a whole bunch of, you know, other creative ways you can do that. So definitely I've definitely recommended people like, Hey, pick something that comes naturally to you and you know, do people tend to like realize it, you know, pretty quickly because if it comes natural to you, it won't be like hard. At least the actual action won't be hard. Like actually writing for you isn't a huge feat. So I feel like that almost makes writing about grief less difficult because you're good at writing, Speaker 1: 43:11 right? Yeah, no, it's super therapeutic. There's nothing that's like a task about, if it was, I wouldn't do it. I mean, exactly. I enjoy it. It helps me, it helps other people. It's honestly just like a win win. Speaker 2: 43:24 I'm so glad you found that. Great. Um, so most people probably know like where are you like active on Instagram, you know, your Facebook groups. Do you just post your blog posts to there? Speaker 1: 43:38 So I recently made an Instagram attached to my blog. Um, I'm working on developing its healing underscore through grief. Um, cause my page is healing through grief with Christie. Um, I post a lot on my Chrissy Lynn Facebook page, but I also run the Facebook page. That's, I am a motherless daughter. Um, that's mine. And then, Speaker 2: 44:01 oh, the, I'm a motherless daughter is like the one that you created. I have to look that up. There's so many of those. Speaker 1: 44:07 Yeah. There are daughters. And then things, the one that's my mom is in heaven, a girl. Um, Danielle started and now me and another blogger, uh, run the page with her. So I guess I kind of am involved in three pages on Facebook, mine plus two others. And then I have an Instagram too. Speaker 2: 44:30 Yeah, that's awesome. I'll put that, um, Speaker 5: 44:32 in the show notes, I know a lot of like just from being active in, you know, the community and I bought, maybe community is the wrong word, but being active in like this, the same women you know, that are in our shoes. I see a lot of like them share, you know, your blogs and the group and it totally just dawned on me when I'm reading your blogs, like it says like the resources for, you know, losing a mom or whatever. Um, it said like those Facebook pages and I've totally should have realized that. Like you created those and I'm sure, well you are mine, a few or some just ones I found motherless daughters on Facebook is my favorite. It has like a million bajillion people who follow it. Um, oh yeah. I think every mother daughter on the planet follows that page. Um, and then there's another one. I link all sorts of things. I find people will send me one sometimes like, Hey, can you share this? Um, I make sure I like it first because I'm not just going to share anything. I want to make sure it's beneficial to people. But yeah, there's links to all sorts of stuff. Speaker 2: 45:38 Oh, cool. Well I will definitely include that. Um, is there anything else that you want to leave the listeners that can just be anything related to losing your mom or grief related? Speaker 5: 45:54 I think we've covered all, all the big stuff. Speaker 2: 45:58 Um, so his mindset, definitely something that you've realized it's important. I guess not maybe mine says the wrong word, but like realization of your regality that seemed to be the whole like, you know, backbone of this episode conversation. Speaker 5: 46:17 Yeah. Yeah. I mean I think, um, for a long time, I mean, I did it, I think everyone's guilty of doing it. Like you live in a lot of denial that you haven't accepted your reality. And I did a lot of that for quite awhile before I got to a place where I was ready to fully accept it. And I think until you accept it, you're not able to even start healing. You don't, maybe you start grieving when that person dies, but I don't think you actually start to heal until you have fully accepted it. And for me that was when I was able to finally write about it and put it on a piece of paper, um, and show it to other people on. It was when I finally decided to go to therapy. It was when I decided to finally sit, like tell people my story and reach out to other people who had lost a parent. I think for awhile it was like, yeah, I was the girl without a mom. But I was doing just not so great coping mechanisms to deal with it and not addressing what was important. And I think until you address what's important, you can't fully even start to even try to heal. You're just grieving. You're not healing, which is why my page is called the landing through Greece. Speaker 2: 47:25 That's so important because people don't really realize like you can heal through this and they're two separate things that actually meshed together. But it's possible. And you know, and it's also I think important too, I guess I'll like leave off with this, but people understand that you're going to be grieving for the rest of your life. But I also think too, that people don't really realize that you're going to be healing for the rest of your life too. Like you're not ever fully healed. Like it's not like that process stops because as long as you're healing, you're grieving. Right, exactly. Okay. Um, I was like, maybe I was like, I could be wrong. I could just be a very, no, no, that was good thoughts. Good. Okay. Thank you. I, and that's important to know too. I mean, it's like, okay, you can then focus on the healing and not just focus on the grieving. Like there's a light at the end of the tunnel. It's like pretty encouraging and crazy to see like that sometimes could be like what gets people through the day, like knowing that healing is there. Speaker 2: 48:42 So you're cutting off, oh, sorry, I didn't hear that whole last sentence by senior you now it's just crazy to think that like, you know that can get you through the day. Like realizing that despite the grief you can heal row whether you blog were just talk about it or write about it or you know whatever you do. Even if you don't really, even if you have a boundary Allie yet, but just knowing that it's not going to be, you know, miserable forever. Right. And I think it's important to just know that acceptance is the first part to yelling. Yeah, you definitely cannot heal. Personally, I don't think until you have accepted your grief, but that's a whole other topic. Right. Gotcha. Thank you so much for being on the show. Oh my goodness. This has been like a dream come true. Since my mom died, I was like, Oh my God, I love this girl. Speaker 2: 49:46 She is like my soul sister. Well you are so welcome. Thanks for having me. Hey friend, I hope you enjoyed this episode. Before you go, I have three favors to ask you. First, I wanted to let you know about the Facebook Group for women where we share our day to day stories, challenges, and victories. If you want to come along for the ride, head to Facebook and search for life after losing mom community. Second, if you don't mind leaving me a review and telling me how I've helped you in your grief journey, I would greatly appreciate it. Finally had to katbonner.com/podcast to access previous episodes and subscribe for episodes in the future.

Do you ever feel like you would be more successful in your journey to better health if you had more willpower and motivation? Does it feel like everyone else has more willpower and motivation than you? Does it seem like all these changes are more difficult for you than other people? You’re going to want to tune in for this conversation with Annie and Jen for the truth about willpower, motivation and what action you can take to feel more successful.   What you’ll hear in this episode: The definition of willpower How decision fatigue impacts the quality of choices we make What’s the difference between motivation and willpower? How preparation sets you up for success Meal planning - why it can be helpful What to do when you can’t rely on motivation and willpower How waiting for motivation gets in the way of change that matters to us The magic in boredom The Habit Hangover - what is it? What keeps successful people going What a study of soda and water in a hospital teaches us about habits How to curate your environment for success   Resources: Atomic Habits by James Clear 53: Secrets From The Eating Lab: Dr. Traci Mann Secrets From The Eating Lab Arms Like Annie Learn more about Balance365 Life here Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, or Android so you never miss a new episode! Visit us on Facebook| Follow us on Instagram| Check us out on Pinterest Join our free Facebook group with over 40k women just like you! Did you enjoy the podcast? Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Google Play! It helps us get in front of new listeners so we can keep making great content. Transcript Annie: Welcome to Balance365 Life Radio, a podcast that delivers honest conversations about food, fitness, weight and wellness. I'm your host Annie Brees along with Jennifer Campbell and Lauren Koski. We are personal trainers, nutritionists and founders of Balance365. Together we coached thousands of women each day and are on a mission to help them feel healthy, happy and confident in their bodies, on their own terms. Join us here every week as we discuss hot topics pertaining to our physical, mental and emotional wellbeing with amazing guests. Enjoy. Welcome to Balance365 Life radio. Have you ever felt like if you just had more willpower, self control or motivation, you would finally be able to reach your goals? We get it. We hear this a lot and it's no wonder. The diet and fitness industry have led us to believe that willpower and control are characteristics of driven, successful, healthy individuals. And if we just had more, we wouldn't struggle. But is that all we need? Do we really just need more self control? And if so, how do I get it? Cause sign me up! On today's episode, Jen and I dive into the theories and the truth behind willpower, motivation and self control and offer tried and true practical strategies to help you stay on track with your goals even when you're just not feeling up to it. And by the way, if you want to continue this discussion on willpower, motivation, and self control, we invite you to join our free private Facebook group. Healthy Habits, Happy Moms. See you on the inside. Jen, how are you? Jen: Good, how are you? Annie: I'm great. We are talking about willpower and motivation today, which is something that comes up so frequently in our community. Like how do I get more motivation? How do I get more willpower? Right? We hear this a lot. Jen: Yeah and everywhere, right? Even the messages we get out of the fitness industry talks about getting motivated and having more willpower. And sometimes those phrases are used in a way that can feel really hurtful, right? Like you're doing something wrong and everybody else, everybody else around you seems to be very motivated and have a lot of willpower and you feel like it's something you lack. Annie: Right? And if you just had that, if you had willpower and determination and motivation and self discipline, then you could achieve anything. Jen: Right? And how many times have we heard, "I just have no willpower and that's my downfall. No willpower." Annie: Right? Yeah. And so we've done a fair amount of investigation into what really is behind willpower, what's behind motivation, what's behind self discipline? Do you really just need more of it? Because that is the message. Like you said, that we've been sold by the fitness industry that like, "Hey, if you just stick to this thing, if you can just have enough self discipline and motivation to stick to this plan, then you'll achieve your goals." And so then that becomes a way in which people feel like they're feeling like, "Oh, I did this." Like you said, "I'm wrong. I'm a failure. I'm lacking in this element of my life and everyone else is doing it. And I'm not." And is there any truth behind that? And I think what we're going to share today might surprise some people. Jen: Yes. Annie: Foreshadowing. Jen: Yes. Annie: And I want to say, like, you've done a lot of writing on this too because a lot of this is in the first phase of our Balance365 programming called Diet Deprogramming. Jen: Yes. Yeah. Annie: And that's the phase in which we kind of challenge, not kind of, we challenge some of the beliefs that you might hold sold to you by the diet and fitness industry, right? Jen: Yes. And the science around willpower and motivation is very heavy. And so I think today we're going to try talk about it in less scientific but more practical terms. Annie: Yeah. Jen: That make sense to everyone. And they can implement in their lives immediately. Annie: Well, yeah, I mean, we're not researchers! Jen: That's the goal! Annie: I mean, I like to think that I'm pretty smart, but definitely not researcher level. Okay. So let's start with the definition of willpower. Let's just get really clear on that. And the definition of willpower is the ability to exert control and resist impulses. And the truth is that we all have varying degrees of willpower. And on one end of the spectrum you'll have people with almost perfect willpower. And on the other end of the spectrum, you'll have people with almost no willpower. And the vast majority of us are- Jen: Somewhere in the middle. Annie: And like Jen said, there have been a lot of studies done on willpower and a lot of theories and it's kind of an ongoing process and you might find some that kind of disagree with each other. So like Jen said, we're just trying to give you more practical advice on how you can reach your goals without maybe relying on willpower and what is clear is that one of our mentors, Steven Michael Ledbetter, he is an expert in the science of human behavior. It's said that people reporting high levels of fatigue are the ones whose lives require high levels of mental energy expenditure. And do you want to give us that marriage example that you share in Diet deprogramming? Can you walk us through that and so we can see what Steven Michael Ledbetter says applies to real life. Jen: Okay. So yes. So, you had just talked about how people who have high levels of fatigue are the ones whose lives require high levels of mental energy expenditure. So this might include having to make many small decisions or choose between similar options all day long, and so what this, what we talk about in diet deprogramming as we compare two people. We've got a stay at home dad and a working mom and I put out this situation where a working mom, she gets up early kind of before anyone else is awake and she has some quiet time, has her breakfast and then she dashes out the door and on her way out she grabs her gym bag, which is packed and ready to go right by the door and she heads up the door for work. Her day is, you know, maybe not a super high stress job. She has some responsibility, but it's not super high stress. Her lunch breaks are always scheduled. She goes to the gym on her lunch breaks. It's a automatic habit and then she returned home around 5:30, six o'clock. Meanwhile, stay at home dad. This is my dream life. That's why I use this as an example. He wakes up tired because he's been up with maybe a toddler a couple of times in the night. He wakes up to lots of noise too, maybe a baby and a toddler crying "Breakfast!" And immediately he's going, "What am I going to feed these kids for breakfast?" And gulping back coffee and then trying to get those kids dressed because they have an appointment at 10 o'clock and then trying to get himself dressed. And it's just the crazy, right? I think we've all been there. Annie: That sounds familiar. Jen: Yes. And then just getting those kids out the door getting, and then one of them saying they got to poop. So then coming back in to change a diaper, like just like madness constantly. Right. And despite his best intentions to do a workout during nap time that afternoon, he is just so mentally fatigued from everything that happened between 8:00 AM and 1:00 PM that by the time the afternoon hits scrolling Facebook and the couch have won him over. And then of course the afternoon to get up from their naps. Similar stuff, making dinner, just that whole crazy and working wife gets home at 5:30 and dinner is almost ready and they sit down for a nice family dinner. They get the kids to bed that night. They go to unwind on the couch. They might share a bag of chips and working Susie goes to bed at a reasonable hour. But stay at home husband is just mentally fatigued, is so sick of being around kids. This is the only time he has in a day to not be with kids and he ends up staying up til midnight like he does every single night. Just hoarding those hours for himself and that might lead to more chips, maybe a beer, watching TV. Then he goes to bed around midnight and it starts again the next day. And so this example I think is typical of what might be happening in a lot of people's households is, you, I don't want to say typical. I'll say it was typical for me for a long time. I don't know if it was typical for you, Annie, but and I would say that even though my partner had taken on the responsibility of earning and that was an enormous responsibility, I felt like my life was chaos, very hard to find a routine when my kids were all little, little. I had three kids under four and it was just that I felt like my mental energy was just, just chipped away at all day long. Just all those little decisions you have to make dealing with unreasonable little kids all day. And it was very hard for me to get the physical or mental energy together. And then it's a downward cycle, right? Like then you have staying up late then broken sleep, can't get up in the morning, can't get going. And you know, we know that spiral, right? Making not so great food choices. Annie: Yeah. it's hard to make great choices when you're exhausted, when you're mentally and maybe even physically fatigued, you're kind of not in a prime position to make a good choice. And the mental fatigue that comes with a long day of decision making, whether it be you, Jen, when you were staying at home or the husband that we described in the last situation, the long day of decision making chips away at your energy and your willpower. So you have the contrast of the working mom who didn't have to make a lot of choices or maybe she made those choices ahead of time. So when she was fatigued- Jen: Right? So she packed her lunch, you know, she packs her lunch the night before, packs her gym bag. Doesn't have to think about those things. And maybe, you know, I think about my husband when he would go to work, there were lots of decisions that needed to be made and he did work in a high pressure environment, but he had assistants, receptionists, you know, like there was a lot of people pushing the ball forward with him, and yeah, so, and I don't want to like create this comparison game. I just might help with conversations between partners or just reflection, right? And so yeah, like, “Wow, how can I reduce the amount of decisions I have to make in a day?” Because what we know is all those decisions is actually contributing big time to your mental fatigue. Annie: Right? And so that's why we talk a lot about things like habits. So when you walk to the fridge, you have your, maybe your lunch for the week, you know, you've got all your power bowls. That's why our power bowl challenge was so successful and we loved it so much is because you don't have to then think at 12 o'clock when you're already starving and like, "Oh gosh, what am I gonna eat for lunch now? And do I want to cook something? Do I want to go grab something?" Because convenience wins. We know that over and over and over again, that whatever is most readily available will likely win out, which we'll talk about how your environment impacts your habits in just a little bit. But essentially what this boils down to in real life that this means, although it may appear that some people have higher levels of willpower than you do, it's probably they've just have just less mental energy expended during the day on large or small decisions. Jen: Right. So that may mean they have less decisions to make, or it may mean that they have habits in place so that they are not making those decisions, right? So you know, if you've listened to our podcast for a long time, you'll know exactly what that means. But if you're new to our podcast, it's sort of how when I open up my phone each time, I don't have to think about what my passcode is to get in, right? But when you go to change your password, you put in your old code, you're like, and then you have put it in again, and then you put it in again. And then all of a sudden you're like, "Oh yeah, I changed my passcode." So that's just an example of where energy is expended in one little way, right? Until that new habit is formed and then it takes no energy for you to do that. Or I was on another podcast, a couple months ago and a farm podcast actually. And, I said to the host, I was trying to explain habits and I said, "What happens when somebody moves the silverware drawer?" And the host, the a male host, Rob, his name was, he goes, "10 years later, you're still reaching to get it out of the old drawer." And that's the thing, right? So habits, having habits set up, like packing your gym bag before bed, if that becomes a part of your night routine and then you don't have to think about it in the morning, "Oh, where's my pants? Where's my shoes? Where's?" Do you know what I mean? And so it's looking at it, you know, case by case. You think, well, these aren't big decisions. Like who cares? But it's actually adding up all those things through the course of a day where you're just like, "Ugh, brain done." Annie: Yeah. Like, you know, the term that comes to mind is just this like exasperated. Like "I can't, I just can't. I can't, I can't." I think I've said that to my husband before like, "I can't make a choice right now. I just need you to do this for me. Like I don't even care." And then he picked somewhere to eat and I'm like "But not that place." Self control is similar. In that when scientists analyze people who appear to have great self control, similarly, it's largely because they're better at structuring their lives in a way that does not require heroic willpower and self control. And in short, they spend time, less time in tempting situations. And that was pulled from also one of our mentors, James Clear, his new book, Atomic Habits, which if you haven't checked out that book or his blog posts they're great. He's hopefully similar to us really applies information to your lives really easily. Jen: Yeah. But ps, he may not know he's a mentor of ours. We may just be like silent mentees Annie: It's not like we're buddies. Jen: Annie, you took his course a couple of years ago. Annie: Yeah, I did. Jen: Yeah. Anyways- Annie: Maybe admirers. Jen: Admirers of his work. Stalkers? Annie: Creepers. Jen: We're not quite at that level. But and we also talked about this in our podcast with doctor Tracey Mann. She's actually done a lot of research on willpower and she talked about it in that podcast and what she had said is nobody has good willpower. You think, you know, nobody does, in different survey she's done when she asks people to rate their own willpower. Everybody scores themselves low on willpower. So nobody thinks they have good willpower. And this is just an excerpt from her book Secrets From The Eating Lab, which is another book we recommend all the time. "Humans were simply not meant to willfully resist food. We evolved through famines, hunting and gathering, eating whatever we could get when we could get it. We evolve to keep fat on our bones by eating food we see, not by resisting it? So is that a good segway into- Annie: Well, I think the takeaway is there, like you can take some of the pressure off yourself for not having like iron man or whatever, like discipline and willpower like, the truth is no one is like that. That's what we're trying to say is that people that you think have really good willpower have most likely, again, created their lives, created routine, created habits that make other options less tempting. They've made the choices that they want to make the most readily available, the easiest to choose, and the most obvious choice in their lives. Jen: Right? So instead of putting all this energy into kind of shaming yourself and getting down on yourself for not having perfect willpower and motivation, put your energy into what we know matters, which is curating your environment and setting yourself up for success, which I do almost every night with my nighttime routine, I kind of start getting things ready for the next day. Annie: Yeah. And motivation is also something that kind of goes, seems to go hand in hand with willpower. And we've kind of been using these terms thus far interchangeably, but motivation is actually our willingness to do things. And the thing about motivation is at times it can feel abundant. Like you have all the motivation and like, "Yes, we're going to do all the things." And then at other times it's like "I'm just so unmotivated, I can't, I can't do anything at all." Jen: Right. Annie: You've felt like that- Jen: Totally. Annie: You've felt that burst of motivation and I think the myth is, again, it goes back to that people that are achieving their goals or they're going to the gym five, six days a week and they're meal planning and their meal prepping and they're eating the foods that the meal plan and plan and they seem so disciplined also have unlimited sources of motivation. And that is not the case either. No one, no one is riding this motivation high all the time, every day. Jen: Even people who, say, prep meals in advance, I prep some or portion of food I'm usually on the weekends and that sets us up for success during the week, but by no means am I cooking and preparing all of my food. You sometimes see on Instagram, you know, like, people who, like, have all these dishes and they line them up and they post meal prep Sunday Hashtag motivation. Annie: It makes for a great photo. Jen: Yes. And they have all their breakfast, all their lunches, all their snacks, all their suppers lined up for the week. Which, honestly, all the power to you. Some weeks I probably could use that. I just don't have time on the weekends to do in depth preps like that. But I do perhaps some and I do meal plan so I know what's coming. That's when meal planning can be great because it takes away the mental energy of deciding what you're going to eat. But what I will say is even the stuff I do prep, I'm not, I don't always feel motivated to eat it. I'm not like, "Oh, can't wait!" I'm like- Annie: Yes! Amen! Jen: And I think even the people who prep all those meals in advance, they might seem really motivated on Sunday cause they've got all these prep meals, but I bet you by Thursday they're eating the same lunch that they had all week and they're just like not thrilled. Or drowning in BBQ sauce. Annie: I can't tell you how many times I have and this is something I would have done back in my deep dieting years is, you know, this on again off again thing, I would like clean out the kitchen. I'd have this like motivation usually triggered, I mean, let's just revisit the diet cycle here. Triggered by shame. I'd see a photo of myself and like, "Ugh, got to lose 10 pounds!" Clean up the kitchen. I'd run to the grocery store, buy all this produce and lean meats and veggies and fruits and like I'm going to do this so well this week. And then, like, come Thursday I'm like, "Ugh!" Because you get this burst of motivation and then to, like, continue to the follow through is, like, that's much harder and when you rely on motivation to do the things that's bound to happen. That's exactly what we would expect from a human because again, no one is riding this high of motivation, seven days a week, 24, seven hours, 24 hours a day, seven days a week. It's unreliable and it's fleeting. It comes and it goes, it ebbs and flows. It rises throughout the month, throughout the day. And, like, I notice it, my motivation rises and falls throughout the day and even in particular to do certain things. If I wanted to have motivation to go work out I know that it needs to be mid to late morning. If I wait until 6:00 PM to work out, it's probably not going to happen. Maybe some days, but probably not. Vice versa, if I try to work late at night, I can't work late at night. It needs to be like three, four o'clock seems to be like a really productive hour for me. So if I have something important to do, like, you know, kind of stack your day to where the motivation fits that task. Jen: Which can work. For me, the only realistic time I have to work out is super early in the morning. So I get up at 5:30 and I work out from six till seven three days a week. And I am never, ever, ever hopping out of bed excited, like "I can't freaking wait." It's just become a habit and which can lead us into a discussion about values and goals. But ultimately for me,I made a commitment to do this to my future self. So when I get up in the morning, I just don't let myself question it. Obviously if I've had a rough sleep or a sick kid, I will not get up at that hour. You know, I have grace with myself and I'm realistic. But yeah, I'm never motivated to do it. It's just simply become a habit for me. And something that's very important to me. Annie: I think that's a common mistake people make is they're sitting around waiting for motivation to strike them like lightning from the sky and as a result they're at the mercy of motivation. So they can't take action until they're motivated. That's like this belief that they have in their head. But you can also flip it and action leads to motivation, which research has proven as well. And I think just anecdotally, you would probably say the same thing. I would say the same thing. Like you get that first set in, you get your workout clothes on, you get into the gym and you start the workout and it's like, "Okay, I can do this now." And then you'll do it, and then it snowballs and it's like, and then you retrain your habit loop in your brain, like, I get up, I do the thing. The reward is I feel good. I may be more productive during the day, in the long term I'm improving my health, I'm increasing my strength, I'm learning new skills and then that's how habits are formed. Jen: Yeah, absolutely. Annie: Without relying on motivation. Jen: Right. Yeah. Annie: Boom. Jen: And that's why a lot of people give up on workout routines, right? Like how many people start something new and within three weeks they're done because they just, they lose, they're super motivated at the beginning, everybody is, when I started this new lifting program, well, its Arms Like Annie, it's your program, Annie,, I was very motivated but that really it doesn't last. And then you, then it's boring because then you're just putting in reps. But that's actually where the magic starts happening, I think, is actually those boring stages when you don't want to, that's when you're starting to, you're not relying on motivation anymore and you are truly training in that habit cycle and you might feel yourself resisting and trying to go back to old habits. Right? When my old habit is to sleep till seven, not get up at 5:30. But that's truly when the magic starts happening. That's truly around even where the tipping point starts happening, right, into forming a habit. And so that's why it's important to push through but not push through in the way that push through and find more motivation. It's like just push through like you're there, like this is, this is where it's going to happen. Annie: So that's, inside Balance365, that's something we call the Habit Hangover often. Like, we see that it's pretty common. Like, because people- Jen: This isn't fun anymore. Annie: Yeah. When they're motivated and they're like, "Okay, now this is just hard work and I'm not near as excited as I was when I started three weeks ago. And the newness, the shininess has worn off. Jen: Yes, new and shiny is gone. Yes. Annie: And again, that's another vote that we've said it before on the podcast. We say it all the time in our community. That's why we start habits small because when that motivation falters and it will then you're not relying, you don't need like this Richard Simmons level of willpower and motivation to do the thing that you're supposed to be doing if you start a little bit smaller versus like doing all the things at once. Jen: Yeah. So actually because I had struggled with, we moved a couple of years ago, a year and a half ago, I guess, and since we moved, I really struggled with my workout habit. So it was kind of last fall sometime where I just epiphany, "Look, this isn't working. I'm not being consistent because I haven't been able to find a time in my day that this really works for me. It definitely does not work at night for me." And that's something I just kept trying to do, trying to do, trying to do and then finally I was like, "Look, you're not going to work out at night." And so that's when I started getting up in the mornings and I actually kind of had the epiphany that's really what time works best for me and I had to start going to bed earlier and I started with twice a week actually. I was doing Mondays and Wednesdays only and that felt very realistic for me. And when things did get hard, I would say, "You know what? It's just two mornings a week. Like you, you can do this. It is just two mornings a week." And then when I felt ready, which is about two months after I started, I added in Friday mornings and now that's going really good. And we're going to add in a cardio, just a cardio session. And yeah. So, and that's just, that's really how habits form, right? Like that's so boring. But you scale up as you solidify new skills and habits, then you can add in something else and something else. And then all of a sudden you're living it and you're going, "Oh, this is happening and I'm doing the thing." Annie: I'm doing the thing. Jen: Yeah. Annie: Or the things. So to recap thus far, willpower and motivation is not what keeps most "successful people" going. It's their habits. And the next kind of layer I want to add on to that, which we've already touched on, is that your habits are highly influenced by your environment. And I want to share this study, I think we've shared it before, but really quickly, this is again, something inspired from James Clear shared before, but they did this study of soda and water consumption in hospital. And what they did was they let people choose their soda and their water consumption for two weeks, three weeks, whatever. They collected the data on the sales of each. After three weeks they added, they didn't change anything about the soda. They added water to different locations, more convenient locations throughout the hospital cafeteria. So again, all they changed was made water more available. And as a result, water sales increased and soda sales decreased. And I think that's just such a simple example of how impactful your environment can be on your habits. They didn't say, they didn't promote or push the water or give any marketing about how soda was "bad or harmful" and water was better. They simply just offered it in more places. And people are like, "Oh, there's water. I'll take a water now." Jen: Totally. So in my house, Oh boy, we talk about this all the time. My veggie tray. Annie: Yes. Yes. Jen: So fruits and vegetables are often things that people struggle to get enough in. And you have to make them convenient and part of your environment. One way I do this is one, I buy bagged salads and I just kind of have no shame around that when my salads are pretty much prepped for me, I'm eating them and enjoy them, but I am just not going to start from scratch every single meal to create a salad. That's a lot of work. And or maybe, maybe it's not a lot, but it's too much for me. And a second is I make a veggie tray every, that's kind of part of my meal prep. On Sundays I make a Veggie tray. I've got like an old one of those old Tupperware ones. I make a Veggie tray and then I'm usually restocking it by Wednesday morning. And I bring that out for most meals, lunch and supper for me, my kids. And I also pull from it when I'm packing lunches for my kids school lunches. And I keep all our fruit, most of our fruit, if it doesn't have to be refrigerated, I have it on the counter in just a little fruit basket and we go through fruit like crazy around here. But I have made fruits and vegetables very, I have put my energy into making those two things very accessible and then I don't have to think about it during the week. It just happens naturally. And that's what we're trying to say here, right? Annie: Yeah. And I think the other aspect to that is visual cues are really, really important. So because when you open up your fridge, you see the Veggie tray and it's, like, there. Jen: It's there. It's right at eye level. It's not tucked, you know, it's not tucked away. It's not in the back. I don't have my vegetables tucked in the drawers and the bottom. It's like right there. Annie: Exactly. I even remember you talking about, which you've seen my Instagram videos, you know, my kitchen also houses my dumbbells and kettlebells. But, but you did the same thing too, you were like, look, I'm not getting in a lot of movement and I want to, and it would be simple to incorporate some kettlebell swings, but in order for me to actually do that, I need the kettle bell in my kitchen. So every time you walked by it, so you ended up doing, you know what, 10 swings a handful of times throughout the day. Jen: Yeah. So yeah, so I have a big round Moved Nat yoga mat off my kitchen island. There's kind of just a space off my kitchen that's just blank space. I know not everybody will be able to find a space, but there's other ways to do it. But anyway, sorry, I have this huge round Yoga Mat. The boys use it to sit and play cars on or they sit on it and read. But I also use it, like, it's just there. So if I feel like doing some movement, whether it's getting on the ground and doing some glute bridges or pushups or whatever, my mat is right there and I don't have to go on my gross floors. But, and then I also have just, you know, I have my garage gym,, but I have one kettlebell that I keep up in the kitchen and it's kind of on the lighter end, but I can do, you know, I can do lots of things with it in my kitchen and I, yeah, I see it and I'll do it right. Which I know it sounds silly, but if I'm waiting for water to boil on the stove, I'll go over and do a couple of kettlebell swings or a couple of pushups or, yeah. And I mean that just works well for me. I'm not saying it'll work for everybody, but it just works well for me. And other people might find benefit in having a yoga mat in their living room and some weights, you know, beside the TV. And so when they're watching TV, they might just feel like, yeah, I could get down on the floor, do some bridges, some presses, some, you know, some yoga stretches, anything, right? Because if it's, but it's just about looking at your environment and say, how does my environment support more of what I want in it? And then on the flip side of that, which we talked about with Traci Mann, is how can I put small barriers in place between me and things that I want less of in my life. So for me, I keep, like all our nuts and seeds and chocolates, like really high calorie, high energy foods. I keep a lot of those above my fridge in the cupboard and then I don't, I can't see them. There's no visual cue to eat them. I'm having them when I want them, right. When I think of them and want them and reach for them. Annie: Right. And then you know that if I want them it's because I actually want them, not just because I see them and then I want them, which is like marketing 101. We think that we're in control. We think we're like making the choice. But a lot of times it's like the power of suggestion. Like I've said it before, my kids don't want the Goldfish at Target until they see the Goldfish at Target, at the end cap. Jen: It's why grocery stores put all that stuff right at the checkout. Right? All the trashy magazines, all the indulgent foods, like the chocolate bars, they put it there because they know you're going to be standing there awhile, waiting at the checkout and you're just more likely to grab it the longer you're standing there. Annie: Right. And the other thing about habits too is that, habits and your environment is that we often have a set of habits per the location we're in. So if you think about the habits you have in your bedroom, the habits you have in your kitchen, the habits you have in your, in the gym, the habits you have in a grocery store, you probably grocery shop the same path every time. You have your routine, right? You like grab your produce, you move to meats or whatever it is. Same thing with the gym. You walk to the same space every time, you put your bag down, you go use the same equipment, you probably have a favorite treadmill or a favorite squat rack or whatever. The thing is important to know is that it can be easier to change habits in a new environment. So if possible, like I'm not saying go out and buy a new house, but could you rearrange your furniture so maybe, or take a TV out of your bedroom or rearrange your furniture so it's not facing the TV and it's more conducive to reading or whatever habit you're trying to change. Or put a kettle bell in your kitchen or go to a different grocery store. Like would your shopping- Jen: Rearrange up cupboards or, yeah. Annie: Yeah. You don't have to like completely like burn everything down and start from new. But can you think outside the box of how your environment shapes your habits? Like even, James Clear, and I'm guilty of this, was talking about your environment should have a purpose. So, you know, he was working at his kitchen island. But he also wants to eat in his kitchen. And then it's kind of like, there was no boundary. That's like, now I'm working, now I'm eating, I'm eating and I'm working. So he created a new small environment out of his bedroom for an office or whatever. And like that's his work. When he's working, when he's there, he's working. When he's in his kitchen, he's eating and you know, on and so forth. So- Jen: I just- Annie: Go ahead. Jen: I posted about this in Balance365 a couple of months ago. I totally had that epiphany in the wintertime when it was chilly out, I started working at my kitchen table near the fire instead of my office. And I started snacking more and more and more. And then one day I realized, it's because you're just staring at the kitchen all day. You're just staring at the cupboard, staring at the kitchen and you're just triggered to go grab something to eat. Right. And so I moved back down to my office and that problem is gone. I'm not snacking between breakfast and lunch anymore. Annie: Right. Jen: And it's crazy, right? You think, you know, you think this comes to motivation and willpower again, but you just can't believe how much your environment influences your choices. Right. And again, my goal is not perfection. My goal is balance. So I'm not like saying take all the treats out of your cupboards and all of that. I feel like I have an appropriate amount of treats in my house stored in a space that aligns with the goal I have of balance, right. Annie: Right, right. Yeah. And I think that it's, you know what all of this really boils down to for me and I'm assuming for you is that self control and willpower and motivation can work in the short term. They can be a great short term strategy. And I wouldn't want anyone listening to this to think I'm super motivated, but I somehow have to like contain that motivation or pull back from that motivation because I don't want to like misstep or whatever. Like, no, if you're motivated to do something, you can follow that. Like you can explore it. It's not that it's a bad thing, but the point is, is that a better, in our experience, a better long term strategy for reaching goals boils down to habits and environment. Jen: Right. I don't, sometimes I feel super motivated to go for an extra run or walk or I do an extra workout. But another thing I just want to note is you don't want to, when you're feeling motivated, that's not where you want to set your bar, right? Like you don't, you know, some weeks I have my baseline habits, say, like my three workouts a week and that's just kinda my minimum at this point. I miss the odd one. We just took two weeks off, actually, me and my workout partner and that's all good. We're right back to our three times a week. But the odd time when I feel like an extra run or I feel like an extra workout, I don't bring my bar up there. I don't say, okay, now I'm at five times. I just, you know what, I recognize it as a week, even a month sometimes where I had a burst of energy and I utilize that and that felt great, but I don't bring my bar up there. I just recognize. Annie: Yes. It was just a bonus. Jen: I just feel motivated. Yeah. It was just a bonus. Annie: Yeah. That's great. This is good. I hope that this helps clear up a lot of the questions that we get about willpower and also helps reduce some of the shame and guilt that people might be experiencing if they don't feel those emotions or if they don't feel like they have those traits or those characteristics innately, and then, because I think I, you know, just on a personal note, I think people think that I am motivated, for example, to go to the gym three, four times a week or five times a week. I'm not. Like Jen said, like, there's days where I'm like, "Eh, I don't know." Like I'll text my girlfriend, it's like, "I need you to talk me into this." Jen: Right. Annie: Or "This is workout really doesn't look fun. I don't think I can do this," but it falls back to habits. I dropped my kids off at school, I'd go to the gym and if I can just get my kids in the car, I know that that trigger loop or that habit loop has started with my trigger of getting kids to school. And I know the rest will just fall in naturally thanks to habits. Jen: Yes. And I do think it is really key too, I don't think a lot of people do this and I think it's such a great thing to do is to stop, pause, especially if you've gone through any life transition, like had a baby, changed jobs, moved and think about where you can decrease the decisions you're making in the day. So my nighttime routine consists of, you know, washing my face, brushing my teeth, getting my workout clothes out, putting them right beside the bathroom sink so that when I get up in the morning, the first thing I do is get dressed. I get my coffee pot out, the coffee out. So you know, so just in the mornings, I just, I don't have to think. I just get up and do, and then I head down to the gym. Annie: That's great. Awesome. If you want to continue the conversation on willpower and motivation, come to our free private Facebook group with our Healthy Habits Happy Moms on Facebook. Jen, Lauren and I are in there frequently along with some really, really rad community members that have been around for a while and have great contributions, so we hope to see in there. Jen: Yes. Annie: Alright, thanks, Jen. Jen: Bye, Annie. Annie: Bye. Bye. This episode is brought to you by the Balance365 program. If you're ready to say goodbye to quick fixes and false promises and yes to building healthy habits and a life you're 100% in love with, then checkout Balance365.co to learn more.  

Jon Hyman, Braze CTO and Founder, gives his insights on the future of data privacy, the responsibilities of entrepreneurs/lawmakers, and the pressures on tech giants to comply to a new frontier of legislation.       TRANSCRIPT: [0:00:17] PJ Bruno: Hello there. This is PJ Bruno and welcome back to Braze for Impact; Your weekly tech industry discussed digest. Very thrilled to have with us here today, our CTO and founder at Braze, John Hyman. John thanks for being here.   [0:00:31] John Hyman: Thanks for having me on the podcast PJ.   [0:00:33] PJ Bruno: I mean as you it's been a long time coming. We've had to reschedule numerous times.   [0:00:37] John Hyman: It's been challenging, but I've wanted to be here for a while.   [0:00:40] PJ Bruno: I know. Well luckily now it seems like the equipment is working okay. Finally, glad to have you on the mic. For those of you who don't know, John Hyman is our MC extraordinaire so to get him in here, for me, is a big deal. So, John where do we start. Privacy. Privacy is in the air. Everyone's talking about the past year has been just a crossfire for some of these tech giants. Facebook specifically. And it kind of seems to have caused a lot of companies to like pivot their focus towards really like catering to that anxiety that some people have around privacy. So, where do you want to start?   [0:01:13] John Hyman: There really is so much to unpack when it comes to privacy, but I like that what you just mentioned in your introduction is that we are seeing some companies starting to pivot more toward that as a focus. If I even look at what's been going on this week alone, yesterday we had Apple announce a credit card with Goldman Sachs and a competitive feature that they are really pushing hard is the privacy aspect of it. So, Apple says that Goldman Sachs isn't going to use your data in any way other to than to operate the card. So they are not going to share or sell that data to third parties.   [0:01:49] PJ Bruno: Okay.   [0:01:50] John Hyman: That information about your purchases is going to exist on your iPhone and not in Apple's cloud. Apple is not going to see it. They didn't even put your credit card number on the card itself, so the card itself is basically just blank with a chip and a stripe...   [0:02:04] PJ Bruno: [crosstalk] Oh wow.   [0:02:04] John Hyman: ...and your name.   [0:02:06] PJ Bruno: Sounds very futuristic doesn't it?   [0:02:08] John Hyman: It does look pretty cool and I think will show everyone that you got a lot of disposable income.   [0:02:12] PJ Bruno: Yeah.   [0:02:12] John Hyman: When you pull out it might be the new AMEX Platinum card or something.   [0:02:16] PJ Bruno: Yeah. [laughing]   [0:02:16] John Hyman: But, what we look at the line that they're taking is that they're really trying to sell this privacy aspect and I think that if you look at Apple's business overall they are also trying to differentiate themselves from the larger tech companies like Facebook and Google because they want to say that they respect your privacy. I remember back at CES in Las Vegas they had a big, cheeky ad up that just said," What happens on your iPhone, stays on your iPhone." And they were really just taking this jab...   [0:02:44] PJ Bruno: Yeah.   [0:02:44] John Hyman: ...you know at google and other providers because they're putting that forward as a focus. They release a lot of features. We have one coming out on Safari and on your iPhone that is going to limit the time that cookies can live on your device. It's something called “Intelligent Tracking Prevention” that Apple's coming out with. And so they're really trying to make a deliberate push into saying, "We're a privacy provider for you. If you want your data to be safe, then you should use Apple Products.” And I think its really interesting positioning, because globally privacy is a word that's on everyone's tongue. We see a lot of different scandals...   [0:03:18] PJ Bruno: Um-hmm.   [0:03:19] John Hyman: ...that are happening in the news and they're not just happening from technology companies. They're really just happening with any kind of big data breach or any other system. We've seen things like Equifax losing and leaking the Social Security numbers of more than half of Americans. We've had Starwood and Marriott leak the names of and information of 100s of millions of their consumers. These aren't great, big tech companies that consumer tech companies like Facebook. And then we just go to those companies and there still countless scandals there on Facebook had. Cambridge Analytica had had...   [0:03:53] PJ Bruno: Right. Of course.   [0:03:53] John Hyman: 50+ million subscriber information that had leaked. I believe even last week Facebook said that they had leaded, in plain text, the passwords of about ten or twenty million users. And so there's just really this non stop barrage...   [0:04:08] PJ Bruno: Jesus.   [0:04:08] John Hyman: ... Of bad press when it comes to privacy that consumers are listening to and I think being shaped by and seeing that," Hey, there is all of this data that's out about me in this world and I want to now kind of clamp down on that." Apple, I think, is taking a fairly opportunistic you know kind of look at...   [0:04:27] PJ Bruno: Right.   [0:04:27] John Hyman: ...how they want to position themselves in it. But, I do think its fairly interesting that we see now other businesses are having to shift toward that.   [0:04:35] PJ Bruno: Yeah. Definitely. I mean you know what's interesting to me is it seemed like a lot of these fines that were happening you know just last week federal prosecutors are like conducting a criminal investigation into data deals with Facebook and that was all around user consent. And so it was not compromised passwords. Its not like okay you're potentially losing all of your you know information. It was just more okay they're using your information to sell or to make decisions. Where do you stand? As far as the data privacy person like, personally, because me... I'm like," I kinda don't care." Like I'm sorry I wish I did more but its like as long my information or like my bank account is not compromised if you're using that data, even unbeknownst to me, to like better cater to me I kinda don't mind. Like where do you sit on the fence?   [0:05:29] John Hyman: So the reason, to me, that this is a challenging situation is really multifaceted. One, it comes down to the fact that I think the average consumer may not be aware of all of the things that are ongoing about them on their phones, by Facebook, on the Internet. All these little pieces of information that are essentially are tracked about them and I'm not sure that the average consumer may understand this profile which built up. And the reason that I think that is because we do see very strong adverse reactions to when this does happen in the press. So, the New York Times writes a story about some information that's being sent to Facebook and then you see essentially online or through politicians commenting on news programs that there a strong reaction to things that do seem somewhat day to day in the running of what is essentially an analytics company. And so I'm not... I think that's kind of one part of it is people may not be aware of the full scope about it. The second part is, do you think that in some cases, to your point, it may be a bit hard to understand the damages that it can be caused to an individual by having all of this information out there? So a lot of people are using Facebook and Google and they're using it for free and everyone knows that if you're not paying for a product then you are the product. But, I think if you had to enumerate and ask people to enumerate the actual downsides, to them, that might be challenging that goes kind of hand in hand with that first part of it. I mean, literally I think if you had like a Harris Poll and you called a 1000 random Americans and you said," Hi there. I'd like to conduct a survey and I'm curious to know your opinions on why is it bad for you that Facebook has this information on you?” And I think that you might get some responses that prosper anecdotal of, "I know someone that had their identity stolen" or," It seems pretty creepy to me.” But, in term of actually enumerating those problems unto them, I think that that could be a bit hard cause it's such an abstract challenge. So, I think that we're essentially working against that as well which makes it a hard topic to discuss because some people like, "[inaudible] what does this really matter? Like I'll give my information." Its interesting if you just think about the amount of information that I'll give online all the time. Like I'm constantly putting in my zip code and my email address.   [0:07:36] PJ Bruno: Right.   [0:07:36] John Hyman: Gender. All these different things into different forms online. Not even thinking about kind of what the purpose is there.   [0:07:43] PJ Bruno: Do you have your credit card memorized?   [0:07:45] John Hyman: I used to [crosstalk] have my credit card memorized. But then Google Chrome started to remember the credit cards for me. So, it does then go back to that convenience factor of I can forget information. I think the same with phone numbers, I used to know [crosstalk] all of my friends phone numbers growing up. At home, we would dial it on the phone lines. And now I think I had if you were a friend before 2006 then I know your phone number I can still go back though elementary school or high school and list out those phone numbers. Even now, I couldn't even give you Bill Magnuson's cell phone number. And I know the first six digits I think. But, I probably just can't because he and I didn't meet until later in life when I already had my phone replacing parts of my memory for me there.   [0:08:32] PJ Bruno: Exactly. Exactly.   [0:08:32] John Hyman: But, essentially, we come back to where I stand. I do think that ultimately there is a lot of benefit to providing consumers with personalized and relevant information. I do think that that is in the... For the benefit of consumers.   [0:08:47] PJ Bruno: Um-hmm   [0:08:47] John Hyman: You ever receive an email and it's about something to purchase and it's a product that you'd never looked at never been interested in may not even be right for you at all. You know a lot of us have had direction like," Why am I getting a you know a sale on boots when you know I was looking at you know dress suits" or other things online and...   [0:09:08] PJ Bruno: Um-hmm   [0:09:08] John Hyman: ... This doesn't match my kind of shopping interest right now. So, I think that it is really a beneficial if we can deliver personalized customer experiences to consumers based on their interests, based on things that are relevant to them, to their demographics...   [0:09:22] PJ Bruno: Um-hmm   [0:09:23] John Hyman: ... To their behaviors, to what we think they're going be add most value to them. I do think that is extremely valuable and you see that Google can do it to when you ever Google something into a search bar and then your like the auto completed exactly what I wanted. Its like they knew me really really well. And then some parts there's like a ... It feels a little bit creepy of you know if my phone listening to everything that I'm saying. But, on the other hand, you know, we think about of like how many times have you been wanting to think of an actor or actress's name or you're trying to learn more information about something you are watching on TV or on your phone and you just it just auto completes it and it's just like it's a great experience from a consumer. To be able to get that information faster. And so, it ultimately is good to the consumer. But, all of this being said, I will say that brands and companies do have a responsibility to their consumers, and to their customers, and to their users. To protect information that's been entrusted to them.   [0:10:19] PJ Bruno: Right.   [0:10:19] John Hyman: And not to use it for other purposes that the customers is not necessarily aware of.   [0:10:24] PJ Bruno: Right.   [0:10:24] John Hyman: Or I think would be like reasonably able to assume. Like I can reasonable assume that Facebook is going to use my information to show me an advertisement or sell it to some company, but I don't think I'd be reasonably want to assume that they're going sell my information to a political campaign...   [0:10:41] PJ Bruno: Yeah.   [0:10:41] John Hyman: ...to target me...   [0:10:42] PJ Bruno: Jesus.   [0:10:42] John Hyman: ... Based on the interest or things that they have. They even though it may kind of follow naturally if you think about it a little bit more, but I would say that it doesn't seem that reasonable to me. It doesn't seem reasonable to me if I give information to a food delivery service and then they sell that to someone who is now talking to me about... Moving in my area or setting up my electrical utilities or switching cable providers or any of those kind of things.   [0:11:06] PJ Bruno: Yeah. Yeah.   [0:11:06] John Hyman: I wouldn't think those things would naturally follow. But, if I do give information to a delivery service I'm going to want them to show me cool new restaurants I might like or dishes I'm into [crosstalk] or help me reorder things I have ordered recently or remind me that it's snowing tonight and, therefore, I should order in and just be cozy. Those things are a boon for me.   [0:11:25] PJ Bruno: Right. Well, rather you're someone who cares about consent or not, it seems to be not stopping any of the fines that are being put on some of these big companies. I mean, you mentioned it last time we spoke about how like Facebook they're getting fine after fine. Tons of fines, but still posting record profits. So, I guess the question becomes like what's the incentive? Like, how much longer? What's the longevity around the plan of being able to just eat fines and not change your strategy? Right? Because big company right? It's not an easy pivot. So, I guess that's the question. It's like you can tell they did this whole new shift to privacy focus. Like what are your thoughts around that?   [0:12:09] John Hyman: I think that if you want to influence the behavior of companies, there are essential two was of doing it. One, is you can do it through I'll say cultural opinions and attitudes of what's acceptable. This is where we see things like pressure of people talking to having a conversation about what they believe is acceptable or not. Taking to Twitter. Taking to the news and putting social pressure on a company to change. The second part is that you can do it through legislation and regulation and that's really where a government can exercise its power. If you look at companies like Facebook, what you mentioned is fairly true. If you go back to Facebook's Q4 earnings that they announced at the end of January so just about two months ago, we go back to where Facebook was in January you think that they had just come off of you know a crushing amount of different scandals. Their stock price had dropped, I believe, 30 or 40% from its October high. There were a lot of things in the news going on of other people saying that teenagers are leaving Facebook in mass or that advertisers are pulling information from Facebook where there were scandals and it seemed like you're like," Wow! Facebook's really is going to have to do something about this." Then, what they do in Q4 is they just you know had very strong Q4 earnings data. They talked about in January completely beat the expectations of the street and ended up having their stock price go little bit back up. It's not fully recovered where it is, but [inaudible] you do see them performing really well. Though, the fines are a part of it. So, you're looking at fines from Facebook we know that Google I was reading this article that Google pays more in EU fines than it does in taxes. Just kind of a...   [0:13:52] PJ Bruno: That's nuts.   [0:13:53] John Hyman: ... Preposterous thing on principal alone. But, you really want to just try to slowly get these companies to change over time and I think that companies, ultimately, are can become slower moving organizations just like you might see with governments or anything else like that. And but you can slowly recalibrate them to what is acceptable.   [0:14:16] PJ Bruno: Um-hmm.   [0:14:16] John Hyman: And over time they'll be paying these fines and it might just be the cost of doing business. But, a long term strategy is going to be that you can't live in that world forever because you're going to have either the pressure continue to fall on you...   [0:14:31] PJ Bruno: Right.   [0:14:31] John Hyman: ...and this is when you see things like Elizabeth Warren making claims that she wants to break up tech companies so we can get to that and talk about that in a moment. But, you also then just have the massive consumer opinion, which will just continue to just fall down on you or have consumers' opinion exploited by companies like Apple who'll then try to push more fines.   [0:14:52] PJ Bruno: It is a sick troll. It is a sick troll.   [0:14:52] John Hyman: Yeah, it is grave by them and they you know Apple actually been a really staunch supporter of increased privacy rights. Because, again, it's a competitive advantage for them. So, I think that over time, in the long term view, they're going to want to make those changes. So, I do think that fines are effective in the long term. I don't think that they're effective in the short term. But, in terms of incentivizing behavior it's a really good way to slowly move the needle there.   [0:15:15] PJ Bruno: So what about tech giants or CEOs informing new legislation because I remember I talked to Susan Wiseman and you know she was our GDP our queen over here as we were going through it and she mentioned that a lot of that legislation had you know was not informed. It was not informed by a specialist. It wasn't informed by tech CEOs or subject matter experts. So I guess my question becomes: A) Should they leverage to help make legislation and B) Is that dangerous because you know having someone who has so much invested in what's going on help create laws that sounds you know somewhat a slippery slope?   [0:15:56] John Hyman: One thing I think is going to be absolutely be true is that... The crafters of this legislation are certainly going to try to use it to maintain a competitive position. So, if you do have Apple having a seat at the table in that conversation they're certainly going to want to do things that allow them to out perform Google. I think you just see this over and over again of just essentially of just lobbying this you're always trying to lobby in your self interest or in your industry's interest or something like that.   [0:16:23] PJ Bruno: Sure.   [0:16:24] John Hyman: All that being said though, the technology's changing in a really fast pace. And so, one of the challenges that comes just in front of any kind of legislation is are you even legislating the things that are relevant to today and also going to be relevant tomorrow? We also have to think about what the world is going to be like if we have self-driving cars or when 5G is everywhere and, therefore, we have in there meta things connected in our homes. There's a lot more things that we want to think about that maybe we to start to legislating. Like I don't even understand all of this information that Alexa is collecting on me at home. But I see cases of Alexa and Amazon being subpoenaed in murder trails and things like that and we got to even answer those questions of like," What's it going to be like when daily life is just so full of sensors and robots and monitors and...?" Perhaps we've already gotten there.   [0:17:15] PJ Bruno: Right.   [0:17:16] John Hyman: But, I do think that like the government isn't going to do an effective job at legislating what is going to be effective in the future without talking to the industry. So, I absolutely feel that you have to have industry experts essentially have a seat at the table and just to kind to elucidate this though kind of funny example. If you just go and watch that hearing of Mark Zuckerberg on congress. I mean, it's apparent how woefully ignorant a lot of the politicians are of...   [0:17:44] PJ Bruno: Right.   [0:17:44] John Hyman: ... How the Internet works, on how Facebook works, on how really anything in modern technology is actually functioning. So, you want to make sure that you got great experts in there for sure.   [0:17:55] PJ Bruno: So, what else? What's next? What's the future look like? I know that we have this whole California Consumer Protection Act. So, what's the path forward for consumer data protection? What can American legislation do better than Europe has done?   [0:18:10] John Hyman: So, for folks who aren't so familiar with California Consumer Privacy Act I'll give you a little bit of the backstory here. So, we had the EU create GDPR which is their big data protection regulation and this one's effect May 25, 2018. And it allowed citizens of the EU to have a certain number of rights when it comes to their data online. They have the right to amend information that's about them, request information that's being collected on them. Business could only collect data for certain under a certain business reason. Like they had to get other consent or have a valid business concern. You could only collect the information a minimal set of information that you needed to do a job and only had to keep the information around and retain it for as long as you needed and no more than that. And so it really kind of helped businesses kind of one lay out the things that they needed to do and it helped their consumers in the long run. And you saw in 2018 a lot of businesses talk about GDPR. It was kind of the headline of all of the privacy kind of blogs and security blogs. Braze, we hosted a conference on it with some of our partners. I wrote blog posts on this. We had Susan Wiseman, our general counsel, also discussing a lot of GDPR. It was kind of the big news. And then when you look over to the U.S. We still have really nothing comparable when it comes to legislation. So, California took a look at this and said," Look, we can do something about this and we can create our own privacy act that is akin to what the EU citizens have on the GDPR." So, essentially what this would mean then is that California is a state that is going to create legislation that applies only to state residents of California or maybe there's a little more than that. But, essentially only applies in the California jurisdiction. And that would require companies have to understand they need to give different rights to folks in America based on what state they are in. Now, I don't think that that is a great way for us to go about doing privacy and what I mean by that is a state legislated privacy act. Because, if you play that down what you'll find is that you'll end up with a patchwork of different states having their own different legislative agendas and...   [0:20:30] PJ Bruno: Right.   [0:20:31] John Hyman: ...and maybe you'll have to do something in the one state. You know even it... just even the concept of states is an incredible concept to me that you could do something that is completely legal in one state and then travel 20 miles across a border and that exact same thing will get you thrown in jail. There are a lot of different cases in America of which we have laws of varying severity and varying degree or laws that things that are legal or not and if you think about that with data it I think that it can really start becoming mind-boggling for what that imposes on business and what that imposes on companies in order to do. So, if you look at the political side of this, you have the Republican Party in the United States that wants to do more of a federal approach. And at the tech companies are also in support of that. So if you look at what these big giants are saying it's like, "Look, like we should really do this at the federal level not at the state because otherwise this is going to start getting a bit challenging for us to do." And that is something that I actually support. I do think and it's not just the Republicans that'll say that there's bipartisan support on wanting to do data privacy on a federal level here in the United States. But, I think that's essentially the right level at which we need to operate.It is we need something that is national that is going to protect people not just in California, but also in North Carolina and...   [0:21:44] PJ Bruno: Right.   [0:21:45] John Hyman: ...North Dakota and Texas and in New York.   [0:21:46] PJ Bruno: It's going to get pretty nasty out there.   [0:21:48] John Hyman: We need to have it all essentially be this same thing as this great country of ours have the same protections for all of our citizens. Not just those who happen to live on the sunny side of it.   [0:21:58] PJ Bruno: Gosh. I do wish I lived in California. I will say that. [Laughter]   [0:22:02] John Hyman: Yeah. Every time I go there and then I come back to New York and it's snowing and I just wonder," You know I could be a place where there's great wine and good surfing and beaches and ...   [0:22:12] PJ Bruno: ... And they're thinking data privacy legislation like," That's important to me."   [0:22:15] John Hyman: Yeah. They're in some things ahead of they're time.   [0:22:20] PJ Bruno: [Laughter] Well, all right John, well, that's about our time man. Wrapping up, any words to the wise on any companies that could be dealing with user data in the future?   [0:22:29] John Hyman: Well, one thing that I'll just say is I think that the question around privacy is could be just fairly interesting as we move into the future. I was talking a bit about the Internet of things and just really there's a lot of data being collect all around us and, as a consumer, I really would love to just understand what that all is. So, I mentioned Alexa and I have to imagine that Amazon has a different profile of me when I am talking to Alexa than when my wife is talking to Alexa. They must know and have this different personas of okay we got you know they probably figured out how many people are in our house. And also you can then use the things in our house to really track a lot about our lives. I once read some funny article that was something like in Canada they have their water plumbing supply and their plumbers who ever runs their water utility... I don't... It's not the plumbers. But, they have to essentially have someone who manually is kind of sitting at like basically the water power plant and turning up capacity at half-time in hockey games. Because in Canada everyone's watching the hockey game and then it goes to commercial break or goes to half-time and then everyone goes and uses the restroom.   [0:23:48] PJ Bruno: Ah.   [0:23:49] John Hyman: And everyone flushed at the same time. And they need they have like 10 or 20x the amount of like water pressure that they need to push down there. The reason that I bring up this crazy example is because if you think about all if you just think about that as a thing then you play if forward and think well if you had a sensor on every time a flushed the toilet, you had a sensor on when I turned on the gas on my stove, or when turned on the television , or when I told Alexa to turn on the lights in my living room you could map out everything that I'm doing in my apartment. And I think that it's going to be fairly interesting to think about like what it's going to be like in the world where a lot of different companies can accurately map out what you're doing. Even now just with a phone in my pocket, I know that Google and Facebook have a lot of information about me. If I walk... Go between here and the restaurant and I'm having dinner tonight I sure they're going to know did I run? Did I walk? Did I take a bike? Did it take the subway? Did I take a car? They really could kind of track you back through that. And it's one thing where you got this giant these giant tech companies that really are the most valuable companies in the world that have this information and we're hoping, at least I'm hoping as a consumer, that they're good stewards of that as best as they can and protected as best as they can. But, there will be other companies that then start to get this information. They'll be my utility companies that'll start maybe track or and perhaps it will be like Ford or General Motors as they have a self-driving car and then they know all this other information of what's going on in the car. You know, perhaps the other vendors inside my apartment or my house and I think that really the next thing that we need to just make sure that we're thinking about is just holistically what's going to happen when just have so much data about us available that's very granular that can really paint this whole picture of who you are and what are we going to have to do as a society in order to deal with that. So, and so I think that that is going to be like a kind of fairly interesting next step as we go into the Internet of things and we look at legislation. I think that's really going to be the only way to solve it is make sure that we have tight legislation on all of that different kinds of data there. But, it's just something that I think is one is exciting. I think that it's exciting that we're going to have these things or these pieces of technology in our lives. But, we need to just make sure that it won't be done irresponsibility.   [0:26:09] PJ Bruno: Yeah, and I hope it is. It's up to you lawmakers. We're looking at you. John, thanks so much for being here.   [0:26:15] John Hyman: Yeah. I had a great time. Thanks so much.   [0:26:16] PJ Bruno: And thank you guys for being here with us. Take care. [0:26:19]

  EPISODE 14 – HOW TO GET FREE PR FOR YOUR BUSINESS Why hello and welcome.  Welcome to Episode 14 of the Small Business Made Simple Podcast. Now my business philosophy is that business is simple but it’s definitely NOT EASY – and there’s a massive distinction which I know I don’t need to tell any of you about! And a lot of it is about consistency and commitment.  For those of you who follow me on social or listened to Episode 1 of this podcast will know that at the end of 2018 I committed to doing 52 of these – 1 a week for 52 weeks.  So far so good! But now I’m putting it up a notch.  I have a great little Facebook Group I’m building called Like Minded Business Owners – I’d love you to join – just search Like Minded Business Owners on Facebook!  I know we all belong to lots of groups on Facebook so I’ve been pondering what I can do that’s different – so, again, I am making the commitment to go, at least once a week to help YOU my listen and those in my world with their biggest challenges or those burning marketing and social media questions. I’m going to go live every Thursday.  So if you’d like to connect and get social on social – head over and join my group.  I would LOVE you to come over and say HI! But onto today’s episode.  Today I’ve got a special guest.  Her name is Jules Brooke and she is coming along to talk to us about how you can get FREE PR for your business.  PR stands for press release – so basically Jules is going to tell us how we can get in newspapers, online blogs, or even on TV!  I 100% guarantee you it’s not as hard as you think.  I write for a couple of magazines each quarter and I got those gigs simply by reaching out to them a little while ago – now they just keep coming back and back for more! Big, small, micro, medium – whatever, FREE PR is a fabulous way to not only build your audience, your customer or client base, but also to set yourself up as the expertise in your industry – whatever that is. Jules has some really practical tips and tricks so if you haven’t done much PR in your business or haven’t tried it as a marketing strategy – then listen up – you will be inspired to do so! But first, of course, our Discovery of the Week. THIS WEEK’S DISCOVERY! This week’s discovery has come just in time for me this week! As mentioned just before, I have a guest coming on to chat today.  So, I needed a transcript for my Show Notes – which incidentally you can get a www.socialmediaandmarketing.com.au Normally I use www.rev.com they will transcribe your videos for you and then allow you to have captions on your video – which is becoming more and more important – just saying! Rev costs about a $1 a minute – pretty good really and a fabulous service. But that’s not my discovery. Today I used www.otter.ai to do my transcription.  It’s FREE so I thought I’d give it ago so I could recommend it to you all. It was super easy – I just uploaded my audio file and it didn’t too long at all to transcribe.  About 2 or 3 minutes (but my NBN was playing up a little!). Was it as good as Rev.?  No, it wasn’t.  I certainly had to go through and correct some words and phrases and it did take a little time to make corrections. Would I use it again – absolutely – but probably on shorter videos – like ones for social media rather than for my Podcast. So, if you need some video transcription – go to www.otter.ai or www.rev.com and have a look.  Transcription of video and audio are becoming more than more important in our digital marketing lives.  So well worth a look at both! HOW TO GET FREE PR IN YOUR BUSINESS Just before I bring Jules on – I wanted to tell you a little about her.  I have known Jules personally for about 3 or 4 years now and I can tell you, hand on heart, she is probably one of the most passionate people I have ever met about their business. I love Jules because I think she’s a little like me – go hard or go home.  Be 100% on something or don’t bother. She’s a real go getter.  Jules founded HYOPR in 2008 after the GFC made funds even tighter for already cash-strapped small businesses. Having run her own small business and specialised in small-business PR for many years, Jules had seen the power of PR to transform and grow businesses first hand. She also knew that many small businesses had incredible stories to tell, that the media is desperate for new content all the time and that PR is a process that can be taught. With this knowledge, Jules has set out to empower small businesses to manage their own PR. I know you’re going to love this episode with Jules – so let’s get into it. Jenn Donovan So, thanks, Jules, thanks so much for joining us on the podcast today. For those out there who don't know you, can you tell us a little bit about Jules Brooks and what handle your own PR is all about? Jules Brooke   I sure can. Okay, so I, I basically fell into PR myself in about 2003 when I had a little baby and I got a job from someone, which was to do with PR, and I didn't have a clue how to do it. But I really needed the work. So, I kind of taught myself how to do it. And then on the back of that I set up an agency and we specialized in small businesses and start-ups. So, I did that for about 2003 whilst running the agency until about 2014. And then I thought, you know what I just want to focus on Handle Your Own PR. So, I gave my agency away to my business partner, who have been helped me found Handle Your Own PR, and she gave me this one. And at the time, she said, I think you've made the wrong decision. It was great. I was like, I haven't because I love teaching people how to do PR. So, on the back of that in 2017, we launched a PR platform, which is really unique. There isn't anything really like it in the in the world, particularly targeting small business owners. A platform called Handle Your Own PR (www.handleyourownpr.com.au) and what you do is you can go on, you choose the media that you want to contact. So, I've got categories and subcategories, so you choose who your target market is. And then you choose whether you want TV, radio, print, or whatever. And then there's a template on there so that you can write your media release. And then you actually get to see the journalist’s names, their phone numbers, their email addresses, and you choose who you want to send it to. And you can send it from the platform, it goes from your own email address. So, all the answers go back from the journalists to you. But it's a really easy way that you can send out and then do your follow up. So, it's all in one platform. And it's less than $400 a year. So that has always been my focus to make things affordable for small business owners. And then I started training people and I've got two or three different coaching programs. Now, almost all of them include journalists that come along that you can pick their brains about what's the best angle for my story, or what's the best way for me to get it out there. And they work with you to come up with the angle, and then they edit your media release. So, you still learn how to write because I think that's really important. Even people that can't write, and I can't tell you how many people come to my courses saying they can't, write. It's only four or 500 words really for a media release. So, we just help you get that hook and help you understand what the media is looking for. So that's kind of what Handle Your Own PR is. And I've got, I've helped people do over 650 campaigns now. So, it's pretty exciting. And at the PR accelerators, which is my sort of main focus, we have a 90% success rate. So, everyone is getting published and 50% of them are getting on TV. So pretty exciting. Jenn Donovan Yeah, that's really exciting. So, I guess Jules, when you talk PR, what is PR? What does PR look like? You know, as far as getting your message out there? And why PR as opposed to every other piece of marketing that we could do - all the other marketing channels? Why is this an important one? I guess a lot of small business owners don't really look into. Jules Brooke I think that is a really, really good question. Because a lot of people confuse PR with social media as well. But the kind of PR I'm talking about. So, PR stands for public relations. But the kind of PR I'm talking about is getting yourself featured in the mainstream media. So, it's talking about getting yourself in magazines and newspapers, on radio and on TV and in blogs. So, it's not about getting yourself an Instagram influencer.   And the reason that I think a lot of people don't think about it is they think Firstly, that it's going to be really hard to do. Yeah, and I also think that people are intimidated by the idea of contacting the media, and we all have that kind of thing where we go little old me, like you wouldn't want to talk to a little old me. But the reality is that journalists are desperate for people to send them stories. We have a whole lot of journalists that come to our events, and one said that the journalists these days have to come up with seven articles a day. So, you do that by yourself, you have to have people give your ideas. Jenn Donovan Yeah, that's incredible. And I guess that was probably one of the biggest things that you taught me about PR, was that they actually they want to hear from me as much as I want to get contact with them.  Which you kind of almost think of these people is all my little superstars, you know, that superstar, they wouldn't want to hear from me, they write the x, y, and z or they're on TV. So that was a really big learning curve that you'd actually given me myself. So yeah, right. Thank you. Jules Brooke  And in terms of why PR is so good. It's because firstly, it's free. So, there is no money that exchanges hands, if you can come up with a good story, a magazine or a newspaper will run it and you don't have to pay them to do it. So that makes it very attractive if you've got a small budget. The other thing is that the other two things really are that you get that third-party endorsements. So instead of like with an ad, where you have to basically say aren't I great or isn't my business great, come and use me, this is somebody else saying, look at this great business, we found, or here are some great tips from an expert that we found. And on the back of that you get that third-party endorsement and people straight away go, Wow, I must go and check this out. There's none of that kind of have a shonky feeling because people feel that the media have checked you out first, and that you must be a leader in your field. And the other thing to go back to leader in your field is that positions you was being an expert. Yes. So you know, if you manage to write an article, for instance, if you wrote an article about you know, five things that small business owners are doing wrong when they use their social media channels, and you send that to a small business media outlets, they would love that, and they will run it for you. And that gives you credibility straightaway. Yeah. It's a beautiful thing, really. And there's a lot you can do with it afterwards. Jenn Donovan  Yeah, absolutely. repurposing marketing. Now, that's, you know, very sweet, very sweet piece of advice there. And so, I guess, Jules, is PR for every business? Is there any businesses that you've come across that PR just won't work for? or, conversely, is there any businesses it works exceptionally well for it? Jules Brooke  Look, the media really wants to talk to business owners. So, whether you pay an agency, or you do it yourself, in the end, you are the person that they want to speak to, because you're the expert in your particular area.  The kinds of businesses that I myself, it difficult to help people, if they're in a franchise, because what tends to happen in a franchise that you would; the way that PR works is that you send people to a website for more information. And if you're a franchise, you normally are going to send it to captain's news or, you know, whatever the name of your franchises, so therefore, you're benefiting everyone in the group and not just yourself. That can be a difficult one. And the other one is party plan. So even though you might have your own website for Jeunesse, or for thermomix, or whatever, you are still building the brand, and it's very hard to get those customers to go to your website and not just google thermomix and go and find whoever their local person is. So, they're probably the two that are hardest, but there is always a way to spin a story! Jenn Donovan So, I guess on that for people who might be listening today who haven't got to the stage yet, where they have a website, they might have their social media channels, but they don't actually have a website or they've even perhaps they have one that they're not happy to be seen. Because it needs updating and that sort of thing. What sort of advice can you give those people who might be listening? Jules Brooke Well, I would tell them to have a website. To be honest, I there is no other answer, I would have to say that these days, if you're in business, the first thing that people will do is Google you. And so, you have to have some kind of a web presence. So, the media won't send people to a Facebook page, or, or a LinkedIn profile, they will always want to send someone either to a bricks and mortar store, or to a website. But also, the journalist is going to Google you and they want to see what it is that you do, and all your potential customers do. So, my hint there would be it's 500 bucks, probably to put together a pretty simple website put together the website before, really you do very much marketing at all. I mean, really, websites are crucial these days, I think you've got to have a professional presence out there. Jenn Donovan  Yeah, I do totally agree with you that, unfortunately, you know, some people, it's just not in their budget and that sort of thing. But if they want to get their name out there if they want to, because obviously PR has the advantage of really growing business name, and you know, your profile and your expertise really quite quickly, as you know. And you are totally right, that if you're missing that element of a website, then perhaps you know, that's not making you look like the expert that people perceive you. Jules Brooke I've worked with some people that maybe just have a splash page, which is really just a single page under your domain. And ideally on there, you would say, you know, website coming soon, or we're fixing it up. If you're interested, you know, leave your email address. And that's one way of capturing people. So, you can market to them later. Yes, you've got to have some kind of a web presence, I think. Jenn Donovan Yeah. Okay. So, what makes a good PR piece like before you gave a really great, you know, headline about social media and that sort of thing. So, what are the elements that you're looking for? Because obviously, it's not written about me, if we take Social Media and Marketing Australia, my business, it's not about me, it's about you know, giving my expertise for free in the PR. So, what are the elements that make a really good PR article that we will be picked up quite quickly? Jules Brooke  Well, you actually said it perfectly, then. So, it's not about you, I think the biggest trick with PR is to realize it's not about you, it's about their readers. So, if you can give them something that adds to their knowledge that adds to their day that makes them laugh, that makes them cry, any of those sorts of things, then they're in. One of the things that we've just heard recently is how badly the digital media and looking for videos, which I didn't realize, so there's a little tip for you.  If you can send them a couple of minutes of video, that is information that is useful to their readers, they will apparently gobble that up. So, I'm about to start promoting that myself and see whether it works. Jenn So, you heard it here first guys!  Heard it here first! Jules The other thing that's really crucial to PR, particularly if you've got a product is your photography.   You won't get PR without a good photo. But the flip side is that I was speaking with the editor of a very influential magazine the other day, and she said, If I get a good photo, I'll find the flipping story. Like I'll work with you to get the story because the photo is so important to them. So that's the second thing. And then other than that, it just remember that if you're writing, you are not writing a letter to a journalist to ask them to write a story for you. You are really writing as if you are the journalist, and you're offering information to people. So, everybody is an expert at something everybody knows something that other people don't know. And I think one of the things that I say to people is if you go out to a barbecue or a party, and you tell people what you do, there will be those same three question questions that keep cropping up, the people always ask you take those questions, turn the question into a headline, and explain the or answer it underneath. And that's a really good way to get started. So, offering tips and advice is the easiest way to get coverage. And your chances of getting picked up become nine out of 10. You know, it's really, really probable that you will get picked up if you can offer some great tips for people or something they don't know. Jenn Donovan Yeah, okay. Excellent. Now, heading back a little bit, you did actually talk about a PR article, I think you said it was around five or 600 words. That is that kind of the norm of what you're looking for? Or what they're looking for? Jules Brooke  Yes, yes. So what you want to do is whether you're trying to get the journalist to write the story, which is what would happen in a newspaper, or if you are doing your own kind of tips for people, you want about four or 500 words, it needs to be very punchy, your first two or three sentences need to say what the whole media releases about. So, there is no point getting waffly at the beginning and then getting into the details, spin it all around, and put the detail up at the top. But you want five or 600 words, you want to get very quickly to the point and then you can expand on it underneath. And you need to make sure that all your details for how people can get to you by your website are down at the bottom. And that's pretty much it. Jenn Donovan Yep. Okay, beautiful. So, I talked to my audience about you know, whatever marketing they do to look at what the return on the investment is. So, I guess to do an article or to get on TV or to get in a newspaper or an online blog type of thing. What's the return on the investment? What do you generally see with your students and people who you have contact with, if they get that exposure? What sort of return on their investment today, I know the investments free, other than time? Jules Brooke There is a time investment. And normally a small amount of it, you know, like you might need to do something like sign up to our website for the contacts. But I mean, you could also research them if you literally have no money. So, the return on investment is huge. And I've got I've just been tracking all my students recently. So, the sorts of things that can happen. We had one person who got an article in Mamma Mia, she got 1000 extra likes on Instagram, within an hour of the article going out. We have a girl that was working with me today has had a whole lot of articles. Last year, she had a 23% increase on her social media following purely from the PR. She's also had each time she does an article, she gets at least two inquiries from new customers who will contact her saying I read this article about you, you know, where I get people at my accelerators from articles that I've original articles that have been written about me, you can often get speaking requests. So, one of one of the girls, who's had quite a few articles published now said that somebody had looked up Australia and expert on branding. And because she'd written so many articles, they contacted her and asked her if she would go to America to do a talk for them. Jenn Donovan  Wow! Jules Brooke That sort of thing can happen for you. If you start writing regular articles, the media will start to know what it is that you do, and they will come back to you for comments, because you are the expert in your field. And I had one other woman who was a business coach. And she did one article. I'm not actually sure where she got it in. But she said she got 16 new business inquiries that month, and that is the only thing that she did differently. Your customers will find you.  They will go looking for you if they like the sound of what it is that you're writing. Jenn Donovan Yeah. Yeah. Great. Very powerful. Yes. Well, it definitely sounds like it can be most certainly. And I guess you know, for anyone who's listening, I often talk about, it's not about the numbers. It's not how many likes you get and things like that on social media. But I guess the difference with what we're talking about today is they're qualified likes, they have literally engaged with you and now they're starting to follow you. So, it's not like running a competition where it could be Joe Blow who's decided to, you know, when the bars or something like that - qualified leads, possibly. So, it is a little bit different. So, if anyone's out there saying but Jenn you always say it's not about the likes, but genuinely engagement.  What Jules has just spoken about them is slightly different because they are highly qualified, because I've already had some sort of touch point with you. Jules Brooke Yes. And I couldn't agree with you more, having 1000 likes from people in India is of the next best thing to useless like they need to be your customer. By the way, let me just go back to how do you write a media release two other things, I forgot to say, if you're writing blogs, or you're writing articles for LinkedIn, then you're already writing what could be a media release. And if you actually sent that off to the media before you publish it yourself, it may get picked up, which means that you'd be able to use that article in your blog or in your social media, but with the extra cachet that it's been published by someone. Jenn Donovan I guess on that point, Jules, is that an important point - that it has to be original content, that it can't be necessarily something you've repurpose, or that you are intending to repurpose? Jules Brooke  You could repurpose it, but you'd need to rewrite the heading and change some of the words because the reasoning behind that is the Google only will value something one. So therefore, if it says the same thing four times is only has value once. So, each media outlet wants that Google ranking. So therefore, they don't want something that's been published somewhere else. Having said that, in my handle your own PR Facebook page, I've had three people in the last two weeks, talk about getting the same article picked up six times. Yeah. So even though it's not great for the media outlet, they don't know, and they do it, it's fantastic for you, because then you get six backlinks into your website, from other people publishing those articles. And unless they asked for an exclusive, there's no reason why you wouldn't just send them something that's already been published. Jenn Donovan  Good. Good point. Good point. And just before we wrap up, this has been really invaluable. So I hope this is kind of sparked something in my audience, perhaps someone who hasn't thought about using PR, or perhaps someone who thought that, you know, PR was, you know, for bigger places, is there any sort of tips or tricks that we haven't managed to cover so far that you think is really important? Jules Brooke  Um, well, I guess for me, I would just say, regardless of your size, so I have people, I teach people to do PR that have Kickstarter campaigns for a start-up. And that doesn't even exist yet. And that works really well, if it's a really interesting one, right the way through to big business, but I think everyone should be doing PR. And the other thing is that if you are spending a smaller amount of money advertising in a local paper, what PR will allow you to do is go to, you know, The Sydney Morning Herald rather than the Ennisvale Weekly, or whatever. So you can think really big things in review, think women's weekly, one of my girls managed to get a 12 page, or she has a business called the called the be kind project and she pitched it to women's weekly, and they did the 12 days of kindness before Christmas, featuring her business, because she pitched it. So, if you are in regional areas, and you're targeting women, women's weekly is another terrific magazine to go to and they look for those kinds of stories. I would just say think big and think of a magazine that you dream to be in or a newspaper you dream to be in and then approached them. Jenn Donovan  All right, that sounds great. Great. Dream big dream big. I think you know, my tagline to these podcasts is there's no point in dreaming small. So, you get that one on the head. That's great! Alright, Jules, thank you so much for this interview. It's been fantastic. I hope everyone has got something out of it. And really encouraged to, you know, try PR in their business. And of course, all the links will be in the show notes. Guys, if you want to get in contact with Jules - well, I guess I should ask you Jules, what's the best way for someone to get in contact with you, Jules Brooke  the best way is probably can email me on jules@handleyourownpr.com.au, you which you will be able to stick in the link. And the only other thing that I was going to say is we do have a trial on our platform. If anyone wants to give it a go that it's just $1. So, you can have two weeks to play. But you do need to cancel within that two weeks if you're not happy. Otherwise, we're going to subscribe you for a year. And I've also got a free webinar. So, I'll give you the link for that. And maybe you can say if people want to know on a half hour little thing on why they should all be doing PR. Jenn Donovan  Beautiful. All right. Right, Jules. Thanks again. I look forward to catching up with you in person again shortly. But yeah, thank you so much for coming on and providing such awesome value to my audience today. Jules Brooke  My absolute pleasure. Thanks so much for asking me again. Wasn’t that awesome?  I hope you got some real value from it and you’re encouraged to see how getting some PR for your small business can help attract more clients or customers. Jules mentioned that she has a trial of her $1 for 14 days on her platform.  If you’d like to take her up on this offer and I definitely think you should.  If you’ve never done PR when I think this will give you a real insight into just how easy it can be. There’s a link in my show notes at www.socialmediaandmarketing.com.au that you can go to, to get the link or go to www.socialmediaandmarketing.com.au/pr   JULES’ OFFER - $1 FOR 14 DAYS – CLICK HERE So that’s it for Episode 14.  I hope you’ve not only enjoyed this episode.  It’s been great to have Jules on.  If you have any questions about winning free pr – just head to my Facebook group Like Minded Business Owners and ask them in there.  I’m sure Jules would be happy to answer them! I’ll be back next Thursday with some more marketing know-how and another discovery. If you’re liking the podcast – please head over to where you listen and leave a rating and even a review – those things are GOLD for podcasters like me!  I’ll be eternally grateful, and it helps others find this podcast and enjoy the free training, tips and tricks too.  It could be the best gift you give them! If you have any comments or questions, please feel free to leave me a DM on Instagram at @smallbusinessmadesimple.  The DMs seriously make my day! Or, of course, pop into my Facebook group. Catch you next week, happy winning free PR, …... …….. and remember small business peeps, as my opening song says, there’s no point in dreaming small!

How does a small, 25 person SaaS company regularly attract 700+ registrants to its webinars?   This week onThe Inbound Success Podcast my guest is Andre van den Assum, the Marketing and Partnerships Manager for Wipster, a cloud-based a video workflow collaboration review platform. I had heard from a colleague that Wipster was absolutely killing it with its webinars and was excited to talk with Andre about how he consistently generates such large numbers of attendees. Our conversation gets super detailed, with specifics on how much Wipster spends on paid media (TL;DR - not much), what the click-through rate is on their email newsletter, how long their promotional timeline is for each webinar, and the percent of leads they get from each marketing channel.   This week's episode of The Inbound Success Podcast is brought to you by our sponsor, IMPACT Live,  the most immersive and high energy learning experience for marketers and business leaders. IMPACT Live takes place August 6-7, 2019 in Hartford Connecticut and is headlined by Marcus Sheridan along with keynote speakers including world-renowned Facebook marketing expert Mari Smith and Drift CEO and Co-Founder David Cancel. Inbound Success Podcast listeners can save 10% off the price of tickets with the code "SUCCESS".  Click here to learn more or purchase tickets for IMPACT Live Some highlights from my conversation with Andre include: Wipster is a video workflow collaboration review platform. The company currently has 25 employees with offices in New Zealand and Portland, Oregon. They have thousands of customers around the world, including big brands like Disney, Red Bull, Shopify and Delta Airlines, and many smaller brands as well.  Wipster regularly gets hundreds of registrants for its webinars, which it typically produces with partners. They get many of their webinar leads from email marketing, and typically include a promotional video about the webinar in their emails. One channel they use for email promotion is their newsletter, which goes out to 40,000 people that has a 25% open rate. Their webinar marketing campaigns typically last two weeks. For a recent webinar on which Wipster partnered with Brightcove Deloitte, 50% of the registrations came from email marketing (12% were from promotions in Wipster's email newsletter), and out of 1100 total webinar registrations, Wipster drove 700 of those (with the remaining 400 from Brightcove). 10% of their webinar leads come from social media. For one webinar, Wipster advertised in Marketing Profs' email newsletter. The cost for that campaign was $3,000 and the newsletter went to a list of 13,000. That yielded 120 leads at $24 a lead.   Wipster posts all of its webinars to its YouTube channel, where they typically attract 600+ views each. Resources from this episode: Save 10% off the price of tickets to IMPACT Live with promo code "SUCCESS" Register for IMPACT's upcoming webinar with Wipster on Make Better Videos In-House: How to Create Consistent Video Production Visit Wipster's website Subscribe to the Wipster Weekly newsletter Wipster's YouTube channel Wipster Stars Facebook Group Connect with Andre van den Assum on LinkedIn Listen to the podcast to learn all about the marketing campaigns and tactics that regularly attract 700+ attendees to Wipster's webinars. Transcript Kathleen Booth (Host):Welcome back to the Inbound Success Podcast. I'm your host, Kathleen Booth, and today my guest is Andre van den Assum, who is the marketing and partnerships manager at Wipster. Welcome, Andre. Andre van den Assum (Guest): Welcome. Yes. Hello. How's it going? Kathleen: Good. I feel like it's hello from tomorrow because you are across the other side of the world, and it is the next day and sunny and beautiful where you are, and it is yesterday and freezing cold where I am. Andre: You got it. We're a little bit in the future here in New Zealand and it is the middle of summer for us so we're kind of on the back of a nice middle of summer Christmas holiday break and just cracking 2019, so yeah, nice to be on your show. We've got some fun things coming up with IMPACT actually so this is nice to compliment that as well. Kathleen: Yeah, it's great and I'm excited to have you here and for anybody who's listening, you can't see, I'm looking at Andre through the video and he's sitting outside and the trees are blowing in the warm New Zealand breeze and there's like, water in the background, it's really stunning. And I'm sitting in the 20 degree weather in the Mid Atlantic region of the United States thinking, "What am I doing here?" So if you're listening you can always go to the show notes and I have a picture in there of the two of us recording so you can see- Andre: If it makes you feel better the roles reverse in June, July and we have a team in Portland and the same thing happens, you know? Kathleen: We all have our turn. Andre: They're all off to festivals and beaches and we're freezing down in New Zealand at the bottom of the South Pacific so don't worry. Kathleen: Well it still sounds like a great place to be. About Wipster Kathleen: So for anyone who's not familiar with Wipster who doesn't know who you are could you tell my listeners a little bit more about yourself and about the company? Andre: Absolutely! So I've been with Wipster for almost five years now, I was employee number five and we've got about 25 of us now. We're a video workflow collaboration review platform. Born from the idea of a video producer/director who was kinda sick of chasing feedback with his clients and wondered why people can't just comment directly on top of the video, so click on top of the frame, make your comment, kinda Google Docs for video, and so he went looking for that solution and it didn't exist. So we were the first people to kind of create a product where you could literally click on top of the frame. There's a couple of others that do it now but we're first to market about five years ago and it's been an interesting journey over that time you know, going from kind of an idea, a spec, into a kind of fully fledged company. I guess we're still a start-up with 25 or so employees but we've got thousands of active users, thousands of customers. Some of the biggest brands around, you know, the Disneys of the world and the Red Bulls and Shopify and Delta Airlines and yeah, we've got a ton of big users but we've also got a bunch of small users, a bunch of agencies that use it for review and approval. Something we're seeing a lot of is some of that capability moving in-house so you know, we're talking to more and more brands who are wanting to kind of scale their video and we can help them do that, you know, by speeding up their workflow, making it easier to pump out the video 'cause we're not talking about kind of one video a month, we're talking about you know, three or four or five videos a week ideally, and some of them even more than that. So yeah, it's been a fun journey and been kind of ... Selling software as a service means you can do it from New Zealand at the bottom of the world but obviously we needed some people on the ground in the US so our founder moved over there and has built a team over there as well so yeah, it's been quite a fun few years, you know, a bit of a rollercoaster but yeah, definitely very rewarding in trying a bunch of different digital marketing tactics along the way to kinda get our name out, you know, being from the bottom of the world to kind of getting that presence, you know, we're in 150 countries or something like that as well, so it's a pretty interesting time to be doing marketing and kinda trying to do this kind of thing I think. Kathleen: Yeah, and as far as the product is concerned ... So we use it, full disclosure for everybody listening, we're a Wipster customer, and we have a video team at IMPACT, it's a couple of people, and we do a ton of video. In fact, I was just up in our office last week and we must've shot, I mean, it's close to a hundred videos in one week because we had a lot of people in from out of town so we wanted to maximize the time. I first was exposed to Wipster really as somebody who provides feedback so our video team was like, "We have to use this platform," and whenever we do a video they send it over to me and I get the link, I go into Wipster, and I'm able to just like, as you said, it is very much like Google Docs for video. I can just pop my comments in there and I'm not a technical person so it's really nice because it makes it very, very easy for me to provide my input. Andre: Yeah. Well, that's how we got traction from the get-go was kind of making a tool that was just very easy to use. The editors are kinda used to these big, complicated editing suites, Premiere Pro and stuff like that with a lot of buttons, but you know, when they're sending it to their clients or their team members or the legal team or the exec team to get approval or feedback, they just wanna be able to click a link, watch the video in a very kind of simple, enjoyable kind of experience, just click on top, make videos. And there's quite a few things going on behind the scenes, you know, like we've got integrations with Adobe, with Slack, with all the publishing platforms, so we can kind of help the more technical people as well but in terms of the end user we try and make it as simple as possible and I think that's what made us so successful so early on was just, it kind of just worked, you know? Kathleen: Yeah. The simpler the better. Andre: Yeah, that's what software's gotta be like these days, you know? I think there editing some big shifts and you know, you used to have to get a software team into the company carrying massive servers on their backs and all this hardware and the IT guys have gotta do all this year-long onboarding and all that kinda stuff. But that's changed, the price point has changed, the experience has changed. So yeah, so it's nice to be part of that movement. Wipster + Webinars Kathleen: Now, one of the reasons I was looking forward to talking with you for this podcast is that you were chatting with a colleague of mine about us doing a webinar together, which we are going to do, so stay tuned if you're listening, and I remember it was my colleague Vin and he said, "You know, you should talk to these guys at Wipster because they get a ton of people coming to their webinars." Webinars are so interesting to me, I'll have to preface our conversation with this. In some respects they're a dying marketing form because so many companies do them and I think people have become so used to webinars and so used to webinars especially that are recorded and they send you the recording afterwards and so people might sign up for them but then they never watch them 'cause they're like, "Eh, it'll come to my email inbox and I'll watch it someday." You know? And so there's this element of folks being jaded by webinars and you know, having said that I think there are some people doing them really well. You're not a huge company as you mentioned. You're 25 people, but you're getting large numbers of people to your webinars. So I wanna dive in and learn more about what you're doing and what's the secret sauce behind these great results you're getting. Andre: It's interesting because you've got all these different things that you can be doing as a digital marketer and you know, for us, you know, we've been doing webinars for a few years now and you know, it's among other things managing all the social channels, doing all these big kind of product campaigns, doing events, doing more tactical campaigns, you know, ad words, all the rest of it, so you know, where do webinars fit in? I think there was a point where we were kind of, you know, we wanted to kind of partner with more people in our ecosystem, other brands, other product services, and so when we called up these people we kinda went to the table with a bunch of ideas and were open to doing whatever with them. You know, might be events, might be, you know, we could do some blogging, you know, guest blogging on each other sites, you know, good for back links, good for awareness, maybe getting them to share some stuff in their newsletter. So you know, we tried to think about all these things that we could do, even create some content for YouTube and stuff like that or you know, data content. So there's actually quite a few things you can do with someone but it was funny because it almost always would just keep coming back to webinars, that was the thing that kind of ticked all the boxes for both sides. A webinar is something that when you approach someone, they already have their audience, they're very protective of the community of the audience, they're not gonna just be kind of sending anything you send them on to their audience, they're the gatekeepers and when it comes to webinars, you know, the key is coming up with a really good topic, a topic that kind of speaks to both the audiences. So I think the first thing we do is kind of figure out what the overlap is for both of us. You know, what are we both standing for and in the case of doing something with IMPACT, you guys are doing some amazing kind of consultancy work around helping brands scale their video. You know, we happen to make a tool that helps them do that so let's kind of talk about that. It should never be salesy, so you know, I think part of the secret sauce is just coming up with something that people wanna click on that's really, truly valuable when they click on it and learn something. So that actually can take a little bit of back and fro. I've even had to kind of can a webinar late in the planning phase because we just couldn't quite come up with that ... And that was a tough decision for me to say, "Look, you know, we're just not quite aligned. You wanna talk more about this but that's not really interesting to our audience. We wanna talk more about this but you don't have enough leadership in that." So kind of to answer your question, the reason why we do things in the first place is because they're really easy to share to both your communities, they both provide a lot of value to both those audiences, and they provide leads and bound leads, you know? A lot of these other pieces of content doesn't have a gate and a form like webinars do and it's just natural to enter your email and sign up for these things. So therefore when you're looking at kind of what the outcome is for both these companies, you know, you both get a nice list of leads and you both provide a lot of value to your audience and it's very easy to share. And then so once you've got a really good topic and once it kind of ... You know, that's gonna help massively and then there's a few other things you can do to help drive them and one of ours is to have quite an active community, to have quite a big email database, you know, a good open rate, so that's kind of some of the work we've done over the years to build that up that we can now go to with good content. It's quite traditional marketing really. We still get a big chunk of our leads through email. Another one, which is kind of obvious for us, but make a video to promote that webinar.  When you look at the click through rates on the emails or even with our partners, we really tend to always overshoot their goals on what they kind of expect. And even when we have at times kind of brought less, you know, having not done a partnership and having to drive all the traffic ourselves, you know, gone through things like MarketingProfs and kind of sending out email blasts to 15,000 users, for them, you know, they come back, it has a thumbnail, so we create a GIF thumbnail with a play button on top and they're like, "Oh, this is some of the best results we've had!" And that's good topic, good copyrighting, and a video thumbnail to help drive it. But yeah, we use our social channels. We have audiences across different social channels.  We have an in-app kind of pop-up that lets people know. We have a newsletter that goes out to 40,000 people that has like a 25% open rate. So it's a combination of all these things, you know? Probably there's no secret sauce on it - it's a combination of value and you know, and finding something that kind of works for both you and some potential partners. Kathleen: So taking a step back, you mentioned you start with really trying to figure out topics that will resonate with your audience. Tell me a little bit more about who your audience is. Andre: Yeah, yeah, for sure. So we stand for video, you know? We're born out of video, out of making the video workflow easier, about helping people speed up their video workflow. So that's the kind of things that we like to talk about. The topics that come under that are kind of, you know, video marketing, or video ideas, creative ideas, you know, making videos for your clients, things like that. Our audience is a few different types but our main audience is the video creative themselves, so the video editor, video producer, video director. They can be a freelancer, they can be working for a small production company or an agency, they can be in a brand, you know, be an in-house team for a brand, you know, so that's pretty much the mix. They can also work for big media companies as well. And so they're all slightly different, you know? We have actually done quite a bit of content targeted as well, at kind of marketers, marketing managers, marketing execs, to help them scale their video strategy and the reasons why they need to do that. So that's kind of our audience, but I think that the large chunk of that is video creatives. Kathleen: And assuming you're able to really nail down a topic that's gonna be relevant and useful to that audience, you then talked about working with your partner that you're doing the webinar with to really refine the topics, make sure the presentation is not gonna be too salesy, and that sort of thing. How long does that process generally take for you guys? Andre: I mean, sometimes you just come up with that topic and it's just real obvious and you kind of nail it. It's one of those ... Kind of that creative writing part of it is hard to ... You always think, "Oh, I've got a couple of hours, I'm just gonna smash this out." Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, you know? It's a bit of wordsmithing. I think one of the key steps to this - and this wasn't, you know, we didn't have this from day one– was having that kind of, that one page, well, not one page, just that one document, that collaborative document that starts with a time and a place and a kind of general theme. You kind of flesh that out, you come up with an abstract ... a title, abstract and a few bullet points. It's actually not a ton of words but you kinda wanna kinda get it quite synced and really kind of interesting. I think part of that process as you're doing this, you know, you actually list all the kind of requirements for your partner and it kind of helps to show what you're gonna commit to. Especially around promotion, you know?  We've kind of been burnt in the past by kind of our partner not living up to what we'd expect for them because I've got other things going on. That's fine, but you know, when you've got in writing that's saying, you know, "We're gonna send it out to our email list of this size twice," you know, "and on these dates. We're putting it out to our social channels. WE're gonna throw 500 bucks behind it to boost it." Once you're kind of quite transparent about what your expectations are and then relaying how many registrations have come in as it happens, put the heat on a bit more, but it gets fun, you know, you share in that success. So I think, you know, it does take time and I know some companies do a webinar a week or something like that. You know, I do too many other things to be trying to take on that. Even a webinar a month is pretty ... I've done that for a few months in a row, you know, four or five months in a row and that's like, you do at least two months promotion time for each of them. Especially if they're using customers, customers are really good if you have a shared customer with your partner. That's ideal, but you're also adding another person who's busy into the mix and so, yeah, be a little bit realistic about the times and it does take a bit of time, you know, and I wish it took less time. There are actually other models or other styles that can take less time. You know, AMAs on Twitter or you know, we're thinking about starting kind of a live video kind of creative chat, monthly chat. That actually requires less of our customers and more people that we want to highlight and less of us in terms of kind of planning the content and stuff, but when it comes to webinars it does take us a little bit of time to get all that stuff together. A few moving parts. Kathleen: Yeah. I love that idea that you mentioned about having that collaborative document. I almost think of it as like a creative brief for the webinar and getting both parties in it and aligning around it because I do think that it's easy to say, "Hey! We're gonna do a webinar on X," and the two parties have very different visions of what X means and should represent and you certainly don't wanna be surprised the day of with slides that are not, you know, that are not along the lines of what you were hoping to see. Time-wise- Andre: Yeah, you do wanna control, not control some of that but yeah, you wanna avoid surprises, have those timelines, have the dry run. You know, do all that stuff, have all those steps in place, and once you've kind of got a document that kind of outlines that stuff you can copy the document, pull out some stuff depending on what the next one is, and at least it kind of puts that up front very early on in that kind of conversation. Kathleen: You were talking about timelines earlier and it sounds like, if I understood correctly, you leave yourself about two months to promote a webinar. Is that accurate? Andre: No, two weeks. Kathleen: Two weeks, oh, I thought you said two months. I was gonna say, "Man, you're really good about planning ahead!" Andre: Well actually we're gonna be doing one with IMPACT in just over three weeks, and they do three weeks promotion so I was quite impressed with that. As long as we've got a solid two weeks of promotion time we find that's plenty to kind of include it in some of these letters that we send out, you know, pop-up in-app, put it across the social. So yeah, as long as we've got two weeks we're pretty good at pulling a bunch of registrations for sure. Wipster's Webinar Promotion Campaigns Kathleen: So let's break down your promotion process. You've got these two weeks, you just mentioned a few things you do, let's start with email. Am I correct that you have a weekly email newsletter? Andre: Yep, every Thursday, US time, we send out a Wipster Weekly and this has been something that's been really successful for us. We've had it around for ages, and we curate a bunch of content, you know. We kind of scour the interwebs and find all the best kind of video production, video marketing tips and tricks and you know, educational stuff, so we pool all that together. There's like five articles and then inspirational video of the week. One of those blogs is our blog. We put out a new blog every week, and so that's kind of pretty value-driven and people love it. We get a lot of responses from it saying how much they look forward to watching the weekly and the different articles and pieces in it and it also provides us a pretty good regular promotional tool. We've got a little banner at the bottom that we can use and also the intro to the newsletter is personalized so we can kind of let everyone know that there's a webinar. Kathleen: And that's going out weekly. Do you do then on top of that separate like, email blasts if you will, to your list? Andre: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, and we don't send a ton of emails to our users, you know? So I know even for us we're quite sensitive about kind of sending too many emails but actually we don't send that many. For a webinar we typically send either two or three. You know, one kind of a week or week and a half out or two weeks out from the webinar. I think, you know, because people get that Wipster Weekly every Thursday they also might not have time that day and kind of know what's in it but when you send a dedicated email and the subject line is all about that webinar, it's a bit more focused so it's gonna get some different types of people clicking on it. And so that's an important tool, you know. I was just looking at some numbers earlier ... Let me just have a quick look here. But to give you an idea- Kathleen: As you're looking at those numbers I'm curious, and I don't know if you can get this specific, but you've got a two week time period. Is it one email newsletter mention and then one email blast or ... What does that cadence look like? Andre: Yeah, it depends on what day it falls on but usually it would be like one email kind of a couple of weeks out, a week and a half out, and then a kind of reminder one day away email. We might sometimes send two emails with different subject lines and different content with that big thumbnail as well, ideally a thumbnail. Then send that kind of one day away, just last chance to catch it, and if we get clever on it, if we've got other promotional stuff going on and we don't ... 'Cause it kind of depends if we've got other things going on whether we send two or three emails and sometimes, you know, if people have clicked on the email but haven't registered then we might only just send those guys the one day reminder. So we play around with it a little bit but they'll always get at least two dedicated emails you know, about the webinar and then also one to two mentions in the newsletter because it can just be as short as a little intro in the newsletter just reminding them. So it's just, you know, you're actually letting people know something that they like to be kept informed with, you know. Especially if it's good content highlighting some amazing customers at Deloitte, a video team of three making video for a company of 280,000, you know, learned how that's successful with internal video, et cetera. So that's stuff that you're proud to share and I think that's a real key part of it. And just to kind of talk about you know, where some of our leads come from. We did one with ... We did a webinar with Brightcove and Deloitte, as our customer, someone I just mentioned, and 50% of our registrations came from our email. You know, that was dedicated email, from the newsletter, that was like 12%. So out of 1100 registrations we drove 700 of those ourselves and yeah, so 50% came from emails. So email is really powerful and then ... Yeah. Kathleen: So then I have a really specific question and you may or may not have an answer for this. With email I know my team spends a lot of time, because we're all total marketing geeks, talking about subject lines. And you're obviously getting great results from your email blasts and we've debated back and forth, especially for webinars. Does it make sense to have the word "webinar" in the subject line or like ... Have you found any lessons learned from how you craft your email subject lines for your webinars that seem to work well for you? Andre: We do typically use the word webinar, but in saying that, we sometimes don't and you know, it kind of depends because we're only doing these every couple of months. You know, we have those conversations at the time, "What are some good subject lines?" We're also sending probably two emails plus a reminder so "webinar" is gonna be in there somewhere. But nothing really stands out for us in terms of you know, in terms of what works more than others. It doesn't vary hugely, you know, as long as it's a good topic, you know? I don't think things like that make a massive difference for us. Definitely not something we've noted, but we're all so busy that it's kind of hard to get too down in the details. But you know, I think it's good to let people know that it's a webinar. I think people still enjoy webinars and you're saying that they are kind of old-fashioned and we've had those same conversations. We go to the table with these partners with you know, "Let's do a video series on ... We can create a landing page, do an educational series about how our brands are turning into media companies," you know, "Put a topic outline," and then it's kind of like, "Well what's the goal here? Are we looking for leads? 'Cause where do they enter their details? This is quite a lot of work to do, you know, where is it gonna live?" And it just starts getting quite complicated so you know, it just keeps coming back to webinars being really successful for us. Kathleen: Yeah. And in the emails themselves, are you putting ... You mentioned that you make like, a promo video for your webinar. Are you putting that video with your animated GIF into the email? Andre: Yeah. So yeah, like, if you can't do a GIF - they're pretty easy to make as much tools - you can just do like a screenshot of your video, so a thumbnail with a big play button. The play button is one of the most recognizable, recognized logos there is. You know, everyone knows what that means and people just wanna watch that video so that's something that really increases your engagement or the click through rate of that email. So yeah, definitely recommend doing that. What we've been doing recently is kind of taking a few frames and making a little GIF with a play button over top 'cause GIFs play inside the email. Thumbnails don't. Videos don't.  And then everything drives to a landing page which is optimized and that's something we've kind of ... There's a few steps we've taken over the years and we've actually been using a site called Instapage, you know, where it kind of takes away your navigation at the top and really kind of makes it clear what the offer is on that page. It's got a form above the fold. It's got the video kind of above the fold. It's got the description so kind of, you know, making that as nice and as optimized as possible, not a ton of ticks, you know, really clear what they need to do to sign up. So that's something that has helped our conversion rate on that end.   Kathleen: So you talked about how you use Instapage and your emails and things. You also discussed that when you're doing these promotional workflows for the webinars you have a couple of other channels you use and one of them was social. Can you walk me through what you do on social to promote your webinars? Andre: Yeah, for sure. Social, you know, surprisingly social will only get us about 10% of our sign ups but you know, it's all about ... For me, I think social channels are really good for brand awareness, showing that you're active, that you're in the conversation, that you have an opinion, that you're coming up with thought leadership. So we kind of throw around $500, if we're doing something with a partner we might throw $500 or so dollars just to kinda get that topic and webinar in front of a bunch of different people and you know, our target audience, showing that we're just leading thought leadership, we're talking about the things they care about. It often doesn't result in a ton of registrations, as I said maybe 10%. We have used, on Facebook, we have used the forms before so people can ... So the form is actually embedded in Facebook, it auto-populates some of the details on there because Facebook has already got that information. And so that has worked out for us, you know. They're like $10 a lead or $10 a registration, which is actually lower than almost anything else we put money towards. To give you an idea, you know we, for that MarketingProfs, email blast, that cost us $3,000 and that's a list of 13,000 and I think that got us like ... What was it? That got us ... Let me see, that got us like 120 leads, so that was $24 a lead. So $10 with $24 ... Yeah, so social typically doesn't work out to be an amazing return on getting leads. Plus you know, with something like Facebook, for $10 for using that form, we have to integrate that form with our content management system that integrates with our webinar thing so it takes a little bit of back and forth work. We've tried it, it's a pretty good cost per lead, but we don't think the quality there is really very high. So yeah, I mean, the videos are great because honestly I think the video is the key on a lot of this stuff because video looks great on all these social channels. It shows what you're doing. It does drive registrations, but about 10%. I think it's a collective, kind of, you're using all these channels and if you're building them all up I think it all really helps. You know, 10% is nothing to kind of scoff at, that's really important, plus it's quite low cost. But yeah, it's not super efficient in terms of driving leads and it just provides us really good content to share and shows that we're kind of active and talking about the topics our customers care about. Kathleen: That's interesting to hear how ... Some of the different paid media channels that you've used. Have you done any other promoted newsletter placements like you did with MarketingProfs or was that the only one? Andre: That's the only email blast that we've done and the reason we had to pay for that one, because we ended up throwing like five grand at that webinar, we got like 550 registrations. It was really good content but it was a little bit more targeted towards marketing strategy and marketing teams so it's not gonna be quite as attractive to all our freelancers and production companies- Kathleen: Got it. Andre: So I think that's why we didn't get quite as many. But however, you know, we also ... It was something that we ran completely ourselves and we didn't have a partner to leverage their audience so then without putting a bit of money ... I mean, at the end of the day we all want new leads or new eyeballs on our product or service, on our thought leadership, we wanna attract people that are outside of what we already have, which is pretty much our primary KPI. There's still a lot of benefits to be had about engaging people in your database, you know? People that aren't quite customers yet or even customers. To reengage them with how other companies have been successful and et cetera, et cetera. But you know, when we're working with a partner we really wanna kind of get in front of a new audience and so when we've done webinars that highlight our customers, and we haven't done this with a partner, then we've gotta look at new ways to kind of top that up. Andre: I mean, so we got 130-odd registrations, you know, through that channel with $25 each so you know, that was quite interesting. But then if we look at a webinar we did with Lemonlight we got like 1200 registrations. The topic was kind of, 24 inspirational video ideas or something like that, so a little bit more generic, a little bit more kind of collective for quite a wider audience. And we spent $500 on that, you know, so 10% of what we spent and we got a bunch more leads. But you know, you've gotta consider what you're looking for, what the cost of your product is, how much you're willing to spend to get someone into your, kind of into your world and educate them about what you're offering. We're a business-to-business product, we have kind of a varied list of what we charge our clients so it depends. When we did the webinar with Brightcove and we highlighted Deloitte that was a bit more of an enterprise play and Deloitte, I mean Brightcove, you know, by and large their customers are bigger companies, bigger media companies, bigger brands. So they're a real enterprise solution. So even though we attracted 700 versus their 400, you know, we got some really top quality brands that came along to that. You know, like an amazing list of brands that tuned in for that one. So it also isn't always about quantity, you know, there's also a quality argument to that as well. Kathleen: Absolutely. It sounds like especially if it's maybe an audience that isn't in your core of the video editor, the producer, et cetera - like when you did the MarketingProfs thing - it sounded to me like you're looking to maybe expand into and get more leads in a segment where you didn't traditionally have a ton, so that makes sense. Andre: No, absolutely. When we started this business all those years ago, you know, our bread-and-butter customer was video producers and agencies and freelancers dealing with that client feedback process. And so we saw a big opportunity in these brands because things were starting to move a little bit more in-house. So we really wanted to get in front of brands as well and help them along that journey. So then you start to do some kind of more tactical plays in terms of getting in front of those decision makers, their brands, the marketers, and whatnot. So that influenced our content strategy last year when we really made some kind of conscious plays targeting marketers, video marketers, marketers in general, making sure they're aware of tools like ours to help them scale their video. And then, so part of that is creating the topic and the ideas that are really valuable to them. That was highlighting Xero's journey, you know. They have an amazing in-house video production team. They use video across their kind of content strategy so it's not all actually just marketing, it's about all the education and kind of onboarding and all that kind of stuff as well. They are a global company with an awesome in-house team and the guy that runs their team kinda walked us through how they went from you know, 10 videos a year to 1,000. So that was really targeted at these brands who have started their video journey but wanna kinda scale it up. So it wasn't really targeted at those freelancers necessarily. And then that was just part of our overall kind of marketing strategy in terms of building awareness in that segment and kind of trying to drive some business in that area. So yeah, I think getting new eyeballs and getting new leads, you know, based off what your kind of strategic objectives are as a company, but getting some new leads I think is one of the big outcomes of webinars, especially when you're doing it with partners 'cause there's already ... Kathleen: Definitely. Yeah, definitely. Now, going back to your data on where your webinar leads are coming from. We talked through email which is 50%, talked through social which is 10%. What were some of the other significant sources for you? Andre: Well actually ... I was actually looking at the Xero webinar numbers so I've kind of got that a little bit wrong. The numbers are still correct but this was for the Xero, not the Deloitte one. So this was the time where we had to drive all the registrations ourselves. So 50% email, 22% came from that email blast that we paid three grand for, 12% was the newsletter, and then like eight or nine percent was across our social channels. We also have a pop-up in the app and that kind of drove a couple of percent and also our website as well. So on our homepage we have a little banner at the top of our homepage and that drove another two and a half percent. So that's our 100% there. You know, if you look at when we do something with Brightcove, you know, we pull 700 and they pull 400 so they're bringing in ... I don't know what that is, 30-odd percent themselves. Kathleen: I love that you're pulling in more leads than Brightcove. Andre: Well you know, that was- Kathleen: I mean, they're a decent sized company, you know? Andre: That was fun because they said to us, you know, they were like ... I was like, "Okay, what's our goals?" 'Cause I already had this kind of, you know as I said, the documentation to help drive the process, and usually I always put a goal here and I kind of put, "What is our goal and what is our stretch goal?" And so they were driving this one a little bit and they said, "Well, our goal was 300 registrations," and I was like, "is that each?" And they're like, "Oh no, total." I was like, "We'll get that ourselves, no problem. I think we should aim higher." And when we launched our campaign we launched it a few days before them and we kind of got 300 out of the gate and so then that kind of lit a fire on them as well to really kind of drive registration. So you know, if you think about it, they were aiming for 300 all up and they ended up driving 400 themselves. So that actually made them push harder. We got 700 of those and then we just kind of ... I had a chat with the team on slack but the kind of brands that we attracted was Bank of America, Oracle, Cisco, Goodyear, McCafee, Oxford, Milwaukee Tools, Hallmark, you know, Sears, Walmart, SAP, Apple, Pixar, Canadian Tire, Baby Center, Airbnb, Visa, UNICEF, LinkedIn, Salesforce, Air New Zealand, LA Times, Whataburger. So you know, when it came to big brands, and a lot of those we actually drive ourselves, but they pulled some big brands in there as well. It was a roaring success and you know, the guy that spoke for us was a great presenter as well so it was really a valuable webinar that everyone got a lot out of. And then actually ... You know, you talked about, what is it, about 15 or 20% of people turn up on the day, I think that's roughly the number, maybe 25, 30% turn up to these webinars on the day. But then of course we do share them and we even put them on YouTube and like, that webinar has got 600 or so views on YouTube, you know, for long form content of an hour long webinar, you know, you are getting people engaging with it, even if they don't turn up on the day. Kathleen: Yeah. Now, I'm super curious, you do an event with a company like Brightcove and you pull in 700 registrants, they pull in 400. I mean, both numbers are great, but to what do you attribute your ability to pull in such large numbers? I mean, you're not a much larger company, I don't know if you have a larger database than they do. Is there something that you're doing differently that's getting you those results or is it something about your relationship with your audience? Andre: Yeah, I'm not sure because I guess we're both using the same video and we're both using the same kind of a topic so you know, so that stuff, you know, we take pride in getting that stuff up to standard. Yeah, I think we do have an engaged audience, I think we do understand our audience. Yeah, I'm not sure what drives that kind of engagement. I think from the get-go when this company started we were very kind of interactive with our audience, we did a lot of AMAs on Twitter, our social channels were quite active, we had a Facebook group. You know, we've always been about thought leadership and sharing knowledge and trying to drive it through value-first based content, so maybe it has to do with our relationship with our audience. Our database is about 40,000 strong, which is pretty decent. Yeah, I'm not sure. You know, I know like for those guys ... Maybe it's also because we're quite agile and we can use all these different channels, you know. Like I'll put up the banner on our homepage myself, I'll set up the pop-up in that myself, I'll create the landing page myself, I'll schedule some ads myself. So maybe that also means that we can kind of be more active on these different channels and leverage these different channels. If they were to do a pop-up on their landing page, or not a pop-up, just a little banner at the top, they might have a few more hoops to go through in a bigger company with other things going on so maybe that works top our advantage as well in terms of getting the message out. Kathleen: That's a good point. There are definitely some advantages to being small and agile. So interesting, you know, and I appreciate you sharing so many details about this because it is ... The devil is in the details with these things, so, fascinating to me. Kathleen's Two Questions Kathleen: I wanna change gears for a second. I have two questions that I always ask everybody who comes on the podcast. You're somebody who's doing a good job with his inbound marketing, doing a great job really, with the results you're getting. When you look out in the world is there another company or an individual that you think is doing inbound marketing really well right now that you would hold up as an example? Andre: Yeah, in the video space I always love what Wistia does. You know, in terms of like, you just go to their website and how they've separated their content and each product and the education center. It's all really nice and all really value-driven and the content in the videos they create and the kind of brand personality that they've created is really good. And you know, if you wanna look at an engaged audience, they have one. Massively. You know, people are part of the Wistia tribe, you know. They've got a Slack group that creates content on it's own. They're all sharing tips, discussing, critiquing, you know, providing value for each other. So they're really good. In fact actually, I've been on IMPACT's list for years so it's quite cool to be doing something with you guys 'cause you do some amazing content that's definitely gone in front of me time and time again over the years so that would be a couple. I really like what Wistia are doing for content-wise. Kathleen: Yeah. They do have a great brand personality and I've actually spent dome time in their offices and got to be filmed for a little video they were making about their partner agencies and it's just a fun group of people to work with and they know what they're doing for sure. Andre: Their office is in Boston, yeah? Kathleen: Yeah. Andre: Pretty cool office and they've got this like stadium set up. You probably saw all that. It's like, "Stay Weird" on the walls and you know, kind of embracing that kind of diversity and just ... I don't know, there's definitely something they're doing right and being good at video, you know, using video because video says so much more than a lot of other mediums so you know, they've been at ... If I just say one thing on a video you actually get a lot more because you might see where I am, what I'm doing, so they've really used that to their advantage and done a really good job, which they should be because they're advocating for video. Kathleen: Right. Agreed, agreed. And what about how you keep up to date? Digital marketing is changing really quickly, there's always something new happening or you know, Facebook changes it's rules, whatever. How do you stay up-to-date and current with everything going on in the world of digital marketing? Andre: It's hard because, you know, I often don't have time to click on even the most interesting subject lines but I do follow a couple of good newsletters that I get in my inbox and I click on those. One of the things that I think keeps me quite up-to-date and inspired about marketing and particularly videos is just talking to some of our customers. You know, I've had some really good, in depth chats over the years with some really interesting people who are kind of ... You know, I talked about Xero, this guy, Pat MacFie, he's just like ... I get off the phone and every time I get off the phone with him I'm just pumped, you know? Sephora, you know how they've kind of grown, they were making 24 videos a year and now they make over 1000 and they're talking about ... And that just started with one. They brought in one video producer in-house, they were kind of renting a studio in San Fran once a month and just shooting a bunch of content once a month and now they've got their own studio in LA and all the brands come to them wanting to borrow their studio and they've got all these ... So just watching that, and that's over a couple of years. You know, you talk to these guys about how they've kind of actually built that and the process, the steps that they've gone through and in two years to be so different and why they're making educational content and how-tos on YouTube, you know, what is that trying to achieve, and the greater trends around kind of how brands now own ... You know, you don't have the gate keeper of the big TV stations anymore. You've got all these different channels. You've got millions of people on YouTube and Facebook and Instagram and Twitter and there's no gatekeeper. You can kind of ... So it's all about audience building and engagement. So talking to the people that are doing it for some of these big companies. Shopify, the guys there make wildly high production video content that they're trying to shop out to people like Netflix, you know, so they're taking a different approach where they're going super cinematic. You know, if you talk about branded content, that makes them like, cringe, you know, it's just like, disgusting, you know? We're all about making the audience feel different, you know? Kathleen: I'll have to check those out, I wasn't aware that Shopify was going in that direction. Andre: They also do a ton of video for more technical purposes. You know, helping people use the platform, TVCs, little technical campaigns on Facebook promotions, so they still do that kind of video but they've actually got a department fully focused on you know, entertaining their audience. So actually that's probably where I get most of my inspiration - off talking to customers, specifically around video. But I think it just depends on what I'm trying to focus on, you know? I talk to some peers around Wellington, kind of around what they're doing on LinkedIn, what they're doing with their blog around driving inbound traffic. So I think, yeah, talking to people has been quite useful to me. How to Reach Andre Kathleen: Great. Well, if somebody is interested in learning more about Wipster or wants to get in touch with you and ask a question, what's the best way fro them to connect with you online? Andre: Twitter might be an easy way to find me, you know, @Andre_VDA, but LinkedIn ... I'm probably more active on LinkedIn. It's got my full name in the description or something like that, just search me on LinkedIn and yeah, we can connect and chat marketing. I am quite passionate about where it is and all the tools we all have to kind of use and kind of to tell our message, tell our stories and help each other out. So yeah, I'm open to any connections for sure. Kathleen: And Wipster's URL is? Andre: Wipster.com. W-I-P-S-T-E-R.com.   Kathleen: Yeah, I'll put links to all those things in the show notes so if you're wanting to find that information just head to the IMPACT website and you'll find it on there. Thank you Andre, it's been- Andre: We'll be doing that webinar in a few weeks as well so make sure to look out for that and we're talking with Zach, so he's a video consultant for IMPACT and he goes to a bunch of different brands and actually helps teach them to make a video because he's a firm believer that the only way you can actually make multiple videos a week that's kind of affordable, scalable and kind of really effective and authentic, the only way you can actually do that is to start making it yourself because the agency model doesn't quite work when it comes to making a handful of videos a week for these kind of different purposes. You know, because you can't really pay an agency a lot of money to do that and get the ROI so that's gonna be all about kind of helping you guys make more video in-house so check that out. It'll be in a few weeks time, I'm sure you'll find out about it through the various channels we have. Kathleen: Well, and I'll put the link for that in the show notes as well, so. Click here to register for the webinar with Andre and Zach Andre: Perfect. Kathleen: So you can click that and register. If you're listening and you found this to be helpful I would love it if you would give the podcast a review on Apple podcast or the platform of your choice and if you know someone else who's doing kickass inbound marketing work, Tweet me @workmommywork because I would love to interview them. That's it for this week, thank you so much Andre! Andre: Thanks for having me. It's been fun.  

Elie Katzenson interviews East Bay Alternative Book and Zine Fest (EBABZ) organizers Gillian Dreher, June Hong, and Maira McDermott about the specialness of zines and their relevance as underground publications for activists, artists, and writers in search for total creative freedom and publishing options.Transcript:Elie Katzenson:This is Method To The Madness, a biweekly public affairs show on KALX Berkeley celebrating Bay Area innovators.I am Elie Katzenson. I am here with the organizers of EBABZ, which stands for the East Bay Alternative Book and Zine Fest, which is coming up this Saturday, December 8th at Omni Commons in Oakland.It's from 11:00 to 5:00. That venue, Omni Commons, is located at 4799 Shattuck Avenue, which is super close to the MacArthur Bar, and there's a drop off on the sixth bus line in addition to other bus lines. For now, I am here with Jill, June, and Mira. Hi y'all.Mira:Hey.Jill:Hey.Elie Katzenson:Let's start by talking about what a zine is.Mira:A zine, in my opinion, is really anything you want it to be. It doesn't even need to be printed. You can have online zines, digital zines. It's anything that you feel really passionate about or interested in that you want to share with other people, and you just kind of put together this little book.It doesn't have to be a traditional book shape. It can be any shape you want. Staple it, copy a bunch of pages, hand it out. That's a zine.Elie Katzenson:Zines are interesting because, as I understand it, historically they've been and they continue to be like an underground publication used a lot by activists, artists, and writers that are looking for the ability to self publish, which affords them total freedom.There's a lot of identity exploration that maybe traditional publishing houses wouldn't allow for that space, and so you have lesser represented communities exploring their identities.With this, I'm thinking queer people, I'm thinking like there's a lot of diasporic exploration, mixed identities, mixed ethnic identities, anarchist groups, a lot of unique politics are getting space. Then kind of nontraditional relationship models. I've seen some like polyamory and nonmonogamous related zines.Really valuable information that isn't able to get exposure elsewhere, in zines gets massive exposure. These fests, which take place across the country, they are really hubs of, this is a big word to say, but like revolutionary information sometimes. It all starts it seems on a small scale, but this work can have major repercussions in a positive sense for a lot of people.Mira:In my personal experience it has been revolutionary, because through zines that's how I have found the words to work through my own gender identity, and that was revolutionary for me.Elie Katzenson:What Mira just said is proof of why zines are so important. In your experience why are zines so special?June:I think the beauty of the zine is, as Mira said, the total freedom and creative control you can have over your publication, and because you don't have to go through the process of a publishing house, and you self publish, you can really make it anything you want it to be.Jill:I also love the element of like speed and spontaneity. An event can happen and you can make a zine about it immediately. I think it's so great for like activism, or current events, because you can react, and share your ideas. Any idea, super quickly.Elie Katzenson:When I think of something like writer's block, or like fear of showing your work, zines, in this punk way, emphasize the naturalness and the power of your first response,and sort of like first thoughts. How do you let go enough to just say like I'm going to put myself out there. I'm going to put my work out there. How do people do that? I'm so impressed by that with zines that I've seen. They're very thoughtful, but they're not over-thought and they're not manicured to the point of perfection.June:I feel like that's such like a classic problem with creative work or like an issue is at what point do I feel comfortable enough to like share my work. With zines I feel like there's such a broad spectrum. Even the range of zines that I've seen some look definitely more spur of the moment, first draft, made photocopies, and published versus zines that look more like traditional books.I feel like the answer to like when do you feel comfortable? Like how do you get over that hump? Like is this getting over your own perfectionism to publish is something that zines kind of help with, because it is so easy to make. That's one less barrier for you to like put your content out there.Elie Katzenson:How zines have been seen more in the mainstream, and so you're talking about the first draft zine, which is a little more, not less marketable. Then you have commercialized zines that maybe are a little less substance oriented.Maybe a little less political, a little less extreme, a little more surface level, and I've been kind of curious about what the dynamic is within the zine community in regards to content.Is there more collaboration in the same community? There seems to be maybe a little bit more friendship. I know that treating your zines is a big part of what you do when you table.Jill:I've had really good experiences making friends through zines, and even making friends zines on Facebook groups, and then traveling to those people's fests, and let me stay at their house.I've never met these people, and there's just a level of trust that comes in I think when you're sharing your work that's really personal. You kind of get to know someone and then they're like, "Yeah, I've never met you but I think you're not going to murder me, so come stay at my house for a weekend."Thinking specifically about when I went to Omaha Zine Fest, and the organizers of that fest were super sweet. I think there's just a lot of camaraderie in the zine community, because we're all just kind of doing the same thing. Not the same exact thing, but we all have the same passion for this art form.Elie Katzenson:This is the ninth year of EBABZ. As I understand it, it was kind of born out of people enjoying Portland Zine Fest, and San Francisco Zine Fest, and thinking that there was enough artists and creators in the East Bay to have a fest here, and even the organizers nine years ago are different than the organizers that are y'all, right?Mira I know that you kind of had like this sub-zine fest, The Bay Area Queer Zine Fest. I think that the space that EBABZ creates, not only at The Fest, which I've been to a couple of years in a row, but the work that you're championing and really like helping proliferate, how can people and the community of the East Bay in general help EBABZ thrive and help zinesters thrive. How can we support the creation of this work?Jill:Volunteer.June:Yeah.Mira:Show up day of. That's really important still.June:Please volunteer.Jill:It's crazy. My boyfriend especially lately has been in awe of all of the work that we've been doing. I think with events like this you don't realize, you always think, "Oh, someone's in charge."No one's in charge. We're just kind of making all this up as we go, and like working together and like figuring out how to get stuff done. Like I'll come home from our meetings working sessions and he'll be like, "Oh what did you do today?" I'll tell him and he'll be like, "What? Like you're doing so much stuff. That's so cool."So yeah, it would be great for people to get involved.Elie Katzenson:What kind of things can people do?Jill:So much, so everything, from all year long, we have different events. Mira's always really good, and June at like planning, fundraising events, getting in touch with like different organizations, figuring out how we can work together, teaching people how to make zines, like workshops like that.We also do planning stuff throughout the year. We have to like send out applications. We have to figure out like what are our mission statement is.Mira:There's administrative work, but all the way to like really fun poster makes.June:Yeah, make a flyer. InstagramMira:Follow their Instagram y'all.Jill:There's fun stuff happening. Voluntaring looks fun if you follow the Insta.June:I think a lot of people are afraid to volunteer, because putting yourself out there is always really scary. Also maybe in capitalist society in general, there's the concept that you have to pay a lot of time in a place before you have any power or say, and so you think that you shouldn't be there helping, or deciding how things are run because you're new, but EBABZ is a democracy as far as I can tell, a major democracy, and people are really welcome, and like radically welcome. It's radically inclusive.Jill:A friend of mine reached out to me and said they were too busy to volunteer but they know this person who's in high school who was looking for like some way to get involved with zines.We brought them on, and they have just gone for it. They reached out to like all the different high schools in the area to ask for people to get involved, share their zines. Any level of effort is appreciated.Mira:For sure. I feel like that can happen in such different ways too. Like so as we said, there's like many different capacities in which you can volunteer, but also like we all started volunteering at the same time three years ago, and how I showed up was I just saw like a volunteer meeting on Facebook.I just like showed up without really knowing that much about The Zine Fest. I'd like gone the previous year, but my friend had posted it on Facebook, so I was like, "Yeah, well I'll just like show up, and now I've continued to stick with it for the past three years, so you never know how it's going to go.Elie Katzenson:Tomas is one of the organizers who I think is not strictly active anymore, and he was talking about the idea that a zine more than maybe certain other mediums is really like a one-on-one interaction between the creator and the reader.What makes a zine one-on-one interaction? Why is that one-on-one interaction really essential, especially when you're talking about subject matter that is frequently very intimate, and life changing I guess I would say, because I think so much of reading zines is related to identity, and people find a sense of belonging that maybe they're not experiencing as frequently in reading fiction.Mira:In my experience it's been kind of like handing someone my diary, and they just happened to be standing right in front of me sometimes making really awkward eye contact. It's terrifying, but that's just kind of what it is.I don't know. It's really cool to have these one-on-one interactions with people even if it's not in person, and then have them give you feedback, or tell you that, "Oh, this zine meant a lot to me, because x, y or Z," and then it's like, "Oh, I'm not alone in what I'm feeling. Wow, this feels great." There's like solidarity with other people over just, I don't know, stuff that maybe you felt like you were alone in.Jill:There's those kinds of zines. I feel like that with a lot of mirror zines, and a lot of per zines, that are like diary type zines, but there's also the zines where it's more communal, and I feel like rather than like a one-on-one, it's this feeling of entering into a group just through reading.I'm thinking of ones that are collaborative that community produces, or ones that maybe share like history of like a place or a thing that you weren't familiar with. It's like you're entering into this world more of a shared base instead of one-to-one. It's one to a bunch. Even if you've never met those people, or seen those people.Elie Katzenson:When people think about getting involved in community, it seems like you have to be a people person, and really enjoy being extroverted all the time, etcetera. What's interesting about Zines is there's face for everyone, and there's sensitivity to whoever you are.You are just radically accepted and loved, and that respect is just so special. I don't think that's really a question, but I think it's something that I want people who maybe aren't familiar with zines, or who haven't participated in an event where zines are shared to know that that is really the environment that is created at a fest.Like Willy Wonka and The Chocolate Factory where you're going to find the level that you want. Maybe you find the blueberry early, and you get rolled away, or you make it to the end and you get your gobstopper. You know? So.June:Yeah, totally. That reminds me of how earlier we were talking about how to support zine communities and stuff, and we talked about volunteering, but also what I found that has been super important to me within zine organizing, and the Oakland art community in general, is I found that people are so supportive and welcoming, and down to help you out with your projects.People's generosity and acceptance has really blown my mind. It's super inspiring to see people be making things and helping other people make things, and being able to express their selves, and creative projects through helping each other out. That's another way to support is help a friend make something.Elie Katzenson:Totally. I read this newsletter, it's called The Creative Independent. I'll have to send you a link, because it's really great. They interview an artist every day, and sometimes they talk about in different art worlds there's more competition than others. Right?One of the pieces of advice that I read today was about being confident in charging for your work. People can pay for your work, and I don't know why that seems so radical to me, because it can feel so hard to say like, "No, that costs money, or that Zine is 10 bucks." You have really made something, and that's like a sacred exchange.Mira:It's hard sometimes, but I feel like the time that I'm most able to stick out for myself and my work is when people just try to take it off the table like it's free.It's the only time I'm really adamant like "No, I put a lot of blood, sweat, and tears into this." That happened at zine event that I'm tabling at. It's hard to put a price on something you've created, but sometimes it's necessary because you have to even or you have to pay your bills.Elie Katzenson:Right? I mean even beyond breaking even though, right? It shouldn't just be, I just had to pay for my materials. It's like, "No, it's okay for me to make money off of a work that I made."Jill:Totally. Yeah.Elie Katzenson:But why does it feel so hard to do that?Mira:It can be hard to do because money obviously is not like the end-all-be-all of the world, but you also need it to survive, and pay the bills. It's something I do think about is why do we not hesitate to buy a five dollar coffee, but you have a problem with buying a five dollar zine, or something like that. I don't know. Not that it's always necessarily like that, but-June:Yeah, I think it is important to keep in mind value and the effort that people put into making creative work that isn't necessarily sold in a store, and for some reason that seems more official. Okay to give money to.Mira:Both as organizers charging for space, and on the zinester side of the table, charging for these things filled with ideas. We've been conflicted with anticapitalist sentiment too. Then like charging for things.If I'm making something that's against consumerism, and then I'm charging for it, like, "Oh, what do I do? What's happening?" It's all about valuing yourself, and your ideas and-Elie Katzenson:Right. You still have to function in the environment that we were functioning in, [crosstalk]June:It's not that we like money, but-Mira:Yeah.June:Give me my moneys.Mira:Yeah, that's, yeah. Personally I feel like that's been really hard.Elie Katzenson:It's interesting to me, because the price that you're charging the zinesters is quite fair in my opinion. I think it's what, 50 bucks if you're accepted?June:No, not even that.Mira:It's less.June:That's for a double.Mira:For a half table we have a sliding scale, 20 to $40, and then if you have a full table, it's 50 to 75 I want to say. We also-Elie Katzenson:You've always employed a sliding scale?Mira:Always a sliding scale, and also if people have financial struggles, they could email us and we waive the fee.Elie Katzenson:Wow.Jill:Some zine fests are not like that. It's really nice to be able to be a part of one that is like that.Elie Katzenson:I want to talk about The Fest schedule in general. I know the Rock Paper Scissors Collective did a memorial fund, The Rheo Memorial Fund, where they were giving away grants of $100 for people to make zines.You could apply for this zine scholarship. That was really special, because again, $100 means a lot. Be it to EBABZ if they can get a table, or just being able to make 50 copies of their work.Okay. So again, reminder the East Bay Alternative Book and Zine Fest is this Saturday, December 8th it's from 11 to five at Omni Commons, 4799 Shattuck avenue. It's free to get in. No admission. All these tables you can buy zines and peruse.I know that there's some workshops happening. Can you tell me a little bit about that?Mira:We have three different workshops. They're each about an hour long. We have writing from the margins, creativity, and embodiment for artists of color with Fatima Nasir. This one sounds awesome. It's a writing workshop, meditative practices, some brainstorming, and sharing stories.Elie Katzenson:What Times that?Mira:That one is at 12 and then at 1:30 we have mixed media sticker making with Raphael Tapra the third. Sounds extremely fun. You just use a bunch of stuff and make stickers. Very DIY. That's at 1:30 until 2:30, but you can stop by. It's kind of like an in and out situation.Elie Katzenson:Awesome.Mira:Or you can say the whole time. At 3:00 we have letterpress basics with Christie Holahan, and she's gonna show how this tabletop water press works.Then everyone's going to get to make good thing. They're gonna choose a phrase, and then everyone's going to let her press that phrase.Elie Katzenson:Cool. What part of Omni are they doing those in? Do you know? Cause it's like those two big rooms, right? The entry room, and then the larger back room.Mira:It's in the entry room and it's way in the back. You'll see these big wall partition screen things.Elie Katzenson:Oh cool.Mira:It's behind the partition.Elie Katzenson:Awesome. Couldn't have asked for a better workshop description. I was reading online that you are doing something new this year. I think it's called a zine store.June:Yeah. So the zine shop is something new that we're trying out this year. Mostly in response to how we were feeling that we wanted to include as many people as possible, because there are a limited number of tables, but we do get a lot of applications.For people who either didn't get to table, or just have like one or two zines, and don't feel like they can fill a table, they actually still have time to drop off their zine at five Friday at E.M. Wolfman Downtown. It's a bookstore. The organizers will be there the whole day selling them instead of having all of those people having to table.Jill:Another thing we're trying different this year one of our organizers had this cool idea. At all these fests, it's always a person behind a table, and it is super weird. I'm sure for anyone who's been to an event like this, or a craft show before, when you're walking around, and you're like, "Do I make eye contact? Do I not make eye contact? I want to look at this stuff. But I don't want them to feel offended if I don't buy the stuff."It's this kind of tense relationship sometimes. Sometimes it's really fun and you make good connections and you have a great time. Sometimes different personalities, some people feel awkward.One of our organizers was like, "What if we move the zinesters out from behind the table." It creates a more like open layout, and visitors can kind of like file through and peruse without having to have these tense eye contact moments.The tabler will still be there, but it's off to the side, and it creates more opportunities for organic conversations.Elie Katzenson:That's interesting.Jill:Yeah it's our first year doing it. So we'll see.Elie Katzenson:Oh I'm really excited to hear that, because I'm totally used to the awkward dynamic. I just put that Mona Lisa smile on my face for like an hour.Jill:Yup. Same. It's like part of the thing.Elie Katzenson:Yeah.Jill:We still have tables like that, so you will get an opportunity to show your Mona Lisa smile. But yeah, it'll be cool.Elie Katzenson:I think sometimes I personally want to engage in conversation, but I'm conscious of taking up too much space, or maybe they need to spend time with other people and I'm scared of taking too much attention, but sounds like people are maybe more open to speaking than I think that they are. Right?Jill:Yeah. We should mention that we're only using the wheelchair accessible rooms, and it's kid friendly.June:We have the childcare room, but we do not have childcare. BYO Care. You can use the room. That's what Rebecca said. BYO Care.Elie Katzenson:It's wheelchair accessible and you can bring your kids. You can't bring your dogs.June:No.Elie Katzenson:I know. My life is not fair.Jill:You can't have it all.Mira:You really can't.June:After The Fest, there's a EBABZ after party that's happening from six o'clock to around 10 o'clock at Classic Cars West slash Hello Vegan Eats. So yeah, come through.Mira:There's going to be like 10 djs.June:I think it's going to be like six.Mira:Six to 10.June:Six to 10 djs.Elie Katzenson:If you each had kind of one last sentiment or thought to put out into the world as an EBABZ organizer, or something that you'd like to put out there for the end of this interview.June:Just every year. I'm so grateful for zine community, the applications we receive, and the care that is taken in those applications. Also my fellow organizers I'm super grateful for it, because everyone really tries their hardest. Put's a lot of effort into it. Also, yeah, I'm eternally grateful to Aura for introducing me to this community and I think of her.Jill:I went to cal, and I was super DIY, and in high school I feel I was super punk into all this stuff. Then you grow up, and you have to get a job and you have to make money. I have a mortgage now.I start to get out of touch with all my roots and this happy community and what matters in life. Coming to Zine Fest, and volunteering with Zine Fest, reminds me of all that stuff, and keeps me connected, and keeps me grounded in reality, and what's good.Mira:Sort of to echo what both of you were saying, I think organizing EBABZ has been one of the most fulfilling things I've ever done. For that I am eternally grateful to Aura for getting me involved. Also if you come to The Fest, please bring caffeine for the organizers.June:Yes.Jill:I don't drink coffee.Elie Katzenson:The East Bay Alternative Book and Zine Fest is taking place on December 8th from 11:00 AM to 5:00 PM at Omni Commons, which is located at 4799 Shaddock Avenue in Oakland. You can follow EBABZ online on Instagram at E-B-A-B-Z-I-N-E fest, or visit them at their website, EBABZfest.com. Thanks. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Is Surtex really worth the time, MONEY, and energy that designers invest? Surtex recently moved their show to February, giving designers only 9 months to design patterns, textiles, and prints for the show when they normally prepare for an entire year. .......................................................................... Check out the Blog Post by Shannon McNab: .......................................................................... https://shannonmcnab.com/blog/2018/7/1/surtex-announces-new-dates-for-2019 ..................................................................................... FREE 2019 Trend Guide: Get the PDF download! ..................................................................................... http://bit.ly/2La8B2H ..................... INSTAGRAM @LaurenLesleyStudio ..................... Be sure to subscribe for more design LOVE! Business tips + creative strategies: ................. http://bit.ly/2LGqRNE   .......................... READ MY BLOG: .......................... http://www.laurenlesley.com/blog #laurenlesleystudio ..................................................................... LISTEN TO THE DESIGN TRIBE PODCAST: ..................................................................... iTunes: https://apple.co/2xZIPsy Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2LHe2TB ........................................... JOIN MY FREE FB GROUP: ........................................... https://www.facebook.com/groups/DesignTribeLaurenLesley/ .................................... Wave at me on social: .................................... Instagram: http://instagram.com/laurenlesleystudio #laurenlesleystudio Pinterest: http://pinterest.com/laurenlesleystudio Facebook: http://facebook.com/laurenlesleystudio   .................................... Transcript: .................................... Speaker 1:                    00:04                I'm Lauren, of Lauren Lesley studio and today I want to introduce you to special guest, uh, Amanda Brady and she's here to talk to us about her very first experience showing her pattern and designs at Surtex. So we're about to dive into 11 questions and Amanda is going to honestly answer all of these questions so that moving forward, if you're thinking about showing at Surtex, you'll have a great idea and know what to expect in 2019. So before we jump into the questions, make sure to like this video, leave a comment or question below and we'll try to answer those to the best of our ability and definitely subscribe to my channel if you haven't already. All right. So Amanda is a founder of Green Hound press and I'm at her very first Surtex show she was on print and patterns blog, which is incredible. Not sure how she did it, but she's very talented and amazing. So here's just a little snapshot at her Surtex, um, with her artwork. And um, I've been uh, rubbed designer for the last seven years and I'm excited to say that some of my rugs have ended up in anthropology, so that's like any designer's dream. Um, so that's just a little bit of my background and we will jump into the questions. So Amanda, can you tell us how did you become a designer in the first place? Speaker 3:                    01:27                Um, well in high school I was on our journalism staff and discovered photoshop and I loved it and I went into college, going to be a journalism major because I didn't really know graphic design was a thing, so I was like, I'll just be a journalism major and then I can lay out the like, newspapers even how little I knew about anything. And then my cousin is a graphic designer in Maine and she flew out for a wedding and she was like, oh my gosh, I'm a graphic designer because our families aren't really super close because we live so far apart and I'm. So yeah, she showed me all of her stuff, gave me all these magazines and I like changed my major the next day. So that's how I became, that's the very beginning of how I became a designer. Okay, cool. Speaker 2:                    02:19                Okay. So what inspired you to go to Surtex in 2018? Like how did you get from deciding to be a designer to ending up at Surtex? Speaker 3:                    02:28                So back to my cousin Aaron in college, I will flow out to her house and she showed me all of these patterns she had made and it never had dawned on me like, oh, people actually make these. I mean it's just one of those things you don't think about them because they're still part of our lives and I'm so I became obsessed with making patterns in college, but I kinda just did it as a hobby, you know, I'd have files in my computer and I did that for like four or five years and my husband was always like, what are you gonna do with those? I was like, uh, put them on instagram. Some, of course I'd heard Surtex. So I, in February of 2018, I emailed Surtex to ask about the 2019 show and the woman who runs the show called me and she was like, why would you wait til 2019? Why don't you do it for 2018? I was like, I don't know because I don't know. And she's like, you're totally ready. And so I just like made kind of like an impulse decision. It was like, alright, I guess I'll sign up for the 2018 show. Speaker 2:                    03:24                Oh that's so cool. I can't believe that happened. I didn't realize it was that spontaneous and Speaker 3:                    03:29                it was. I mean I've been kind of checking in on this show, like for a year or two, but like, oh yeah, I'll give myself a year and a half to get ready for the show and myself three months basically. Speaker 2:                    03:43                I know I would feel like I needed at least a year to get ready. So when you signed up kind of last minute, did you feel ready once you were there or were you like, that's okay. Like I could have had more, but I'm, I have enough. Speaker 3:                    03:55                No, actually I am glad that I didn't have a year because I think I would have waited till close to the last minute anyways, and since I had such a short amount of time, there was no time to really stop and second guess anything. It was just like I had to go on pure instinct. Like this looks good to me. This is what I'm doing. I like this, this is what I'm doing because I didn't, I didn't have the time to debate it. Really? Yeah. So, um, especially like with the booth design and stuff, because you have to have so many weeks to get that stuff printed and shipped to you. And then I wanted a little wiggle room in case something was wrong to get a reprint. So it was just boom, boom, boom. Speaker 2:                    04:33                I kind of love that Speaker 3:                    04:36                actually for me it worked really well. Good. Okay. Well, what can you tell us about art licensing? I'm still not that much. I didn't know what to expect when it came to the actual, like selling a patterns at the show. And I brought like order form sheets and I couldn't find anywhere in anyone's blog or anyone who had talked about Surtex about the actual selling of the patterns. Oh, okay. So I came prepared if people wanted to buy them. And then I just, what I've been doing now is I got, oh great number of contacts from tags. So I started like an e-blast basically that I send out when I make a new collection and I will send it to these people first so they get, before I even put it on instagram or anything, I'll show it to them to give them an opportunity. So that's just what I've been doing since the show. But I haven't actually done any licensing deals yet. So that's why I don't, I'm, I'm still not sure how that works. And I'm really curious to see in the future how that goes. Speaker 2:                    05:47                Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is that um, sort of the path that you want to go down with showing your things at Surtex or do are you wanting to do more like client work? Work? Speaker 3:                    05:57                I'm really anything I, I would definitely love to get some licensing deals, but since I'm still so new I'm not, I'm not sure if like I'm going about getting the licensing deal the right way or yeah, I'm still, that's very murky waters for me still. I understand that side of stuff. I'm like, can someone else just take care of this for me? I know I think so many artists are like that and I think that art school doesn't really prepare you well for the business side of things or there's not like. I Dunno, I mean it seems like some artists out there have a agents and work with agencies and that seems like one way to do it, but you don't really even know how to make those connections in the first place. And so my next question was going to be, are you working with an agent? Speaker 3:                    06:49                I'm like, are they trying to get you licensing deals or are you still looking for an agent or are you going down that route at all? So the first time I ever even thought about an agent was at Surtex and an agent came up to me and was like, I would love to work with you, here's my card, um, and she's like, reach out to me at such date and it was a couple months after and I don't even think I've reached out to her yet because I'm still deciding if that's what I don't want to waste her time. So I didn't want to reach out to her until I researched more like, okay, this is what I want to do. I'm an agent or um, yeah, I'm still trying to figure out just where I want to take this and where I want to go with this. And I think I've been kind of waiting to see something that naturally happens. But since I'm probably gonna have to like really, you know, start working a little harder at figuring out which direction I want to go with this, you know? And so I would not be opposed to using an agent. I just don't know if that's like, I just don't, I can't commit to that yet. I got Ya. So always. Speaker 3:                    07:57                Okay, well my next question is how did you prepare for Surtex, and I think you kind of answered this with them, you know, just talking about how last minute everything was, but are there, um, is there any advice you would maybe give to someone who is thinking about going to Surtex in 2019 and what are some, like kind of practical steps they could take to get prepared for this show? Um, well I did a lot of research and I, I tried to track down any blog, anything on pinterest I could find of people's booths. Um, you know, what they did for Promo items, just anything I could get my hands on. So, and then I spent probably a couple weeks, you know, when you get in that zone where you, you're trying to, hard things aren't flowing naturally. So I was definitely there. So once I got through that and I was like, you know, just stop thinking so much in doing what I naturally know to do. Speaker 3:                    08:53                It went a lot smoother. But I um, I definitely looked at a lot of booths and was like, okay, what's, and I was really kind of harsh thankfully, like it was just in my head, but like what's working with this booth, what's working with this booth, how can I incorporate that into my booth, you know, and then I noticed like how did people actually showcase their patterns and a lot of people had that big portfolio books are like printed large pieces of paper and I, I don't know why I just did not want to do that. So I made an actual catalog of like a magazine spread of all my patterns and I took that and I made like 100 copies and gave those out so people could take my portfolio with them. I'm not smart. It worked really well. I was in um, yeah, the magazines weren't super expensive to print because that was one of the reasons like I didn't want to like print this super expensive portfolio or even like the sheets of paper. Um, because like they'll print like these big sheets of paper. Yeah. Speaker 2:                    09:55                Where did you use to print? Um, your magazine? I've heard of like blurb and I don't know, Speaker 3:                    10:01                I used a company called overnight prints. Okay. Yeah, it's decent quality, especially for what I wanted it for and it was pretty inexpensive. Um, and so yeah, that worked out really nicely for me. So yeah, was like, well was traveling. What's the question again? Speaker 2:                    10:23                I know I kind of got you off topic, but yeah, just getting or any advice to get people. I'm kind of like a checklist of things that they might need to feel prepared for their tax going into 2019, like obviously your, you did a lot of research on your booth and kind of what that is because like you could have all your designs, but if you don't have a way to showcase them then you're not really going to be able to show at Surtex. So you know, you can go in with an ipad and be like, here's my staff. Um, Speaker 3:                    10:52                I definitely think you have to think about the whole picture. Um, when I was at Surtex one woman, I forget who it was, she was a buyer and she goes, I love your booths. Set up and she goes, I love that you even matched your booth. Like, my outfit matched my booth. I didn't plan that. That's just colors. I'm kind of gravitated towards the details. Do matter so much. Like I would have never even thought to match my clothes to my booth, but it made sense if like, you know, you have a muted color Palette that's kind of your aesthetic, but you're wearing like neon bright clothes, like you're kind of like presenting yourself as a brand almost. Yeah. I would definitely say think about the entire package from setup to what you're wearing to what your promo items are. And then I also had printed fabric samples and I had pillows made. Oh cool. Brought them down. But um, yeah, my cousin made me these cute little pillows with my patterns on them and I had them up on the behind me so people had things they can touch and hold as well. And I think adding just a little element of like, oh this is where so people could see were these patterns could live I think really helped. And I got a really positive response. Awesome. Yeah, people want to go grab them. I can like pause our recording. Yeah, I'll go grab them real fast. Hold on. Speaker 3:                    12:19                I grabbed all my stuff. Okay, cool. They're up in my kid's room so I had to go track them down. So yeah. So I made this pillow while at my cousin made this fabric I just had made at spoonflower and then I had this little pillow and so these were like setting up on a little shelf so it kind of looked like a mini store. Love it. And then I printed off some fabric samples that I had hanging off my booth so people could come up and touch it and look at it and look through the fabrics. Okay. And that was a very um, especially for it because, you know, a lot of my stuff is very childlike and sew fabric would be like a very ideal. So, um, that was like created some huge talking points. So did all of the fabric you get printed on spoonflower and is it all digitally printed? Speaker 3:                    13:21                It is all digitally printed. I um, I actually just like made squares and then made this huge file of like each square and then uploaded that one file and then to save on costs and then just cut like each fabric. Oh, that's so smart because like, it's so expensive to go. So it's like you don't want to like, you know, break the bank on all this stuff, but at the same time you want to like, you know, the details do matter. So of course my little catalog that I made for the show did some mock ups, like I found some nice photoshop ups online and like, you know, because I really wanted to show people like here's what you could do with this pattern. So. Right. Um, but yeah, this was like a big hit because people could just take it and then, you know, like a business card gets lost. But this is like, yeah, you're not going to lose that. Yeah. So, and I'm sure buyers are meeting with so many different artists at Surtex that they probably have a hard time remembering who they met with or you know, it's like even with a business card, they're like a kinder, remember, but maybe not. But with that, they, there's no way they're going to forget like your style and. Oh no, because I put everything in here that I showed. So yeah, they were. Speaker 3:                    14:44                So yeah, it was um, this was like, like I said, it was supposed to be like a cheaper decision is why I initially it and then it just ended up, I had a lot of success with it. So that's awesome. Speaker 2:                    14:58                Yeah. There's only kids pillows. Okay. Did you focus on a particular medium when you were creating your patterns for Surtex? Like did you focus on more like digital drawing or like watercolor or. Um, and tell us a little bit about your, more about your style and kind of what you focused on and if you kind of noticed what other artists were doing as well. Speaker 3:                    15:22                Um, so I am very vector art. Like that's my thing. That's what I love to do. Um, so everything I do is vector. I'm like 98 percent of my work I do as an illustrator. So that's what I know. That's what I love and that's what I stuck with at the show. I noticed every style under the sun at the show you see a lot. I saw a lot of watercolors, a lot of, a lot of digital art. Just. Yeah, there was. I'm trying to think. Speaker 2:                    15:55                Any new trends that you noticed? Like in terms of like medium, I'm like, did you see more hand drawn? Things are more like graphic or modern style. It's got clean styles. Speaker 3:                    16:08                I would say watercolor was probably the style that I saw the most that it actually stuck out in my mind. Like, oh, there's another watercolor. Oh there's another water color. But they were still so different. So I'm, I'm guessing that that was kind of trending at this show a lot, a lot, a lot of Christmas art. Speaker 2:                    16:28                Oh, okay. I bet that's a huge. Um, I know, I just feel like, yeah, the seasonal businesses is really huge. I interviewed with um, international greetings at one point and I ended up deciding not to take the job, but they were saying that they would need me to come in like every week for their Christmas season and for Valentine's Day it wasn't like that all year, but it was an app like that enough where I was like, I don't know about this. Speaker 3:                    16:58                Oh, a whole booth. That was just Christmas. Like that's all he did, that's all these women did was Christmas stuff. And I mean I knew it makes sense that the holiday market is the biggest. But one of the big agents that I talked to, um, she told me that it's like 80 percent of surface design is florals or Christmas or like. Yeah, it was like, yeah. So that was, that was eyeopening. Speaker 2:                    17:26                Yeah. So then it's like, what do you do? Because you know, if that's 80 percent of the business you want to be a part of it. But then the competition, I'm sure it was also so high that you're like, you, I should focus on something more niche. Speaker 3:                    17:38                It is. Well, I think because like buyers know that that's the stuff that sells, like florals are always going to be in florals are always going to sell, so it's like a safer by to buy a floral as opposed to like a Llama were only like a few people like llamas or you know. Speaker 2:                    17:53                Right. It's funny though, I will say that in rags and this is so nice and specific, but I'm a rug designer for those of you who may not know. And I mean they have been like anti floral for like a long time. I think just because the lattice designs and even like Persian designs more like oriental, unlike traditional designs have kind of come back into style. Um, but I think we're just now starting to like get back into florals. Even an outdoor, like I design outdoor rugs and I'm like, come on, like I think we can do some florals now. Now that you said that, it's like, oh yeah, I don't ever see floral rugs anyway. Yeah, I think it'll come back, but it's like fitness. All right, well my next question is what kind of collection did you present? Um, and I know you just kind of showed us your products, but if you want to tell us kind of what was your thought process in terms of making a collection, like were you trying to focus on kids products or some other kind of audience or niche Speaker 3:                    18:58                market? So like I talked about earlier, I really struggled the first couple of weeks and I was just overthinking it over trying and just everything I came up with was like, so forced that you could just to me it read is like forest. So I went to a couple parents, I created a year or so before that I loved and never did anything with and it was a farm theme. And so kids, um, the kids stuff is what I really love and, but I, I try not to be too babyish. Like I like kind of like the kids stuff that like you could turn it into an adult thing and it still totally work. Um, like go for anyways. So yeah, so I kind of went with this whole, like farm theme farm. Like there's like a little farm truck and a cow in some corn. This was like a coordinate to go with it. And I had this little, I had this little pig everywhere, a little pin of him. And so yeah. So, you know, when I made these patterns it was just for fun. I didn't have any shows lined up. I was like, maybe I'll put this on instagram, but it's, I, it was just for fun. And so to me they appeared more natural of my style. Speaker 2:                    20:14                Yeah, yeah. That's interesting that you were able to kind of go back into the archives and pull out, you know, things that were just you like that you did for fun and they ended up standing out a lot and getting onto the print and pattern blog, which is incredible. Speaker 3:                    20:26                I mean, I'm a doubt. I didn't even know I made it up there. I just was like, because, you know, I check that blog all the time and I submitted my stuff and I was like, man, you know, good luck. Go out into the universe and about it again until I'm scrolling by and I see this armadillo pattern that I did and I was like, yeah, Speaker 2:                    20:44                oh Speaker 3:                    20:48                yeah. That was like that. I mean, that alone makes it worth going to certain texts. Like the fact that I made it on that blog. Speaker 2:                    20:56                It was crazy. It's amazing. Yeah. Congrats. Thanks. So how much did Surtex cost in total and do you feel like it was worth the cost? Speaker 3:                    21:08                Oh, this is where it gets tricky. So by the time was between flights, hotel food and the booth and all this stuff. I bet I spent between 4,505 grand. Yeah. So it was a very huge investment so far. I would say it has not paid off financially, but that being said, I also am so new to this world that I feel like I needed to take a very crucial step like this to keep going forward and to figure out, okay, this is what I need to do to make money at this. And so since the show, I've just been doing things to keep working towards getting a licensing deal and making money at this. But um, yeah, it was, it was very expensive. Speaker 2:                    21:59                Right. So yeah. My next question was going to be, um, did you walk away with any licensing deals, which we already sort of touched on? Um, yeah. So you're, you're not doing that yet, but it sounds, I don't know, I follow you on instagram and it looks like you are working on some, you know, client work, some illustration. Speaker 3:                    22:19                I did. I have one client that came out of nowhere and I think the fact we talked about me going to Surtex and I think that gave me a level of um, the word, um, my credibility. Credibility. Thank you. And so I do think it helped me get some other gigs but not in surface assigned, but yeah, so I have been getting a lot of um, I have been in client work, um, illustration client work, which is really exciting. So um, yeah, no it was, I wouldn't say it was a waste of money, but it definitely, it was a, it was a nice chunk of it Speaker 2:                    23:02                change. Yeah, it's enough to make you maybe second guess. Are you planning on going back to Texas in 2019? Speaker 3:                    23:13                No, and I was never planning on going back unless I like knocked it out of the park. I wanted to make my money and like double it before I would commit to going back because since I was a first time showcase or you get like an intro discount and you get a really small booth which is awesome because I mean the bigger the booth more expensive it is not only in terms of like it jumps I think from 3000, I think it was 3000 for the intro booth and it jumps up to $5,000 for one of those big boost. So not only did you have the $5,000 but then the banners and stuff to fill this space is more. And so I was never, like, it wouldn't have, I would have to make so much money to commit to going to Surtex 2019 because I wouldn't be a first time show buyer or show her. Speaker 2:                    24:10                Would you have gotten the same amount of space or would you have like you're required to be bumped up to that next? The bigger booth. Speaker 3:                    24:17                I mean they might've changed it because I think they changed a lot for the 2017 show. But yeah, you just had to go up to the next size. Like you couldn't get that intro space again and get like someone like me that's just because those spaces are really for like the agents who have like multiple artists. So it's really easy to fill. I mean because the blues are like the size of a room. They're huge. So it's like little old me in this like, you know, I just, I couldn't justify that yet. So yeah, I never had plans to go back as bad as that is. I like, yeah, I made like a ton of money but I didn't. So I was like, well, Speaker 2:                    25:00                yeah, I mean, I don't know, it makes me wonder, you know, like how many times would you have to go before I did start to pay for itself? Um, because I read some blog posts by some other artists who felt like they had gotten enough gigs out of it to justify the cost. But I mean at the same time, I don't know, like I have to wonder, I don't know, like you're still like, yeah, you're maybe justifying the cost, but do you really want to give that portion of your earnings to a show like that? And would you maybe still be okay without the show? Like do you really need this show? Are People gonna forget about you. Do you have those relationships with buyers where they're still gonna come back to you year after year, um, for work or maybe is it that you go every other year or something like that? Um, I don't know. Like what was the general feeling that you got from other designers at the show? Speaker 3:                    25:56                So that was really interesting because the general vibe, everyone was like super pumped. I'm hearing from people who had gone to the show multiple times that like there was no one there, like it was really slow show your buyers know, buyers. I think the show itself have how many designers were. There was so much smaller than in past years. And um, I heard from a couple people that were also went to the blueprint show. Have you heard of that? Speaker 2:                    26:27                I heard about it from you. You had mentioned it to me before. Speaker 3:                    26:30                Blueprint was taken at the time I last year. Blueprint took place. Like it kind of overlapped with Surtex like a day or two. So it was like Blueprint's show and then right into Surtex show and there was a ton of people that showed at blueprint and Surtex and they were talking about how much better blueprint was in terms of how many buyers were there. The atmosphere was different. So I signed up for blueprint show coming in May, you did a third of the cost and everyone was talking about how much better of a show it was. So it was like, well I hate to totally give up on shows yet, but I, you know, so I wanted to try this show before I, you know, make a final decision on Speaker 2:                    27:16                these Speaker 2:                    27:18                surface design shows. Yeah, that's really interesting to hear that. It's a third of the cost. So do you feel like Surtex is, um, I dunno, I mean, do you feel like they need to come down in price? Do you feel like the price is justified? Do you feel like they just need different tiers or different options because it's like can't get the artists to the shows and the buyers aren't going to come because what's the point? The buyers aren't going to spend a week or three days or whatever it is if they don't have a good selection of artists to choose from. Like their job is to buy the best artwork possible. Right. So it's just kind of a ripple effect. Speaker 3:                    27:55                Well, once I got there, you know, and hearing all the thoughts and people talking about shows in general, it's like people go to instagram to find new artists now and they go to flower to find new artists. So it's like these companies aren't paying to send buyers out when they can just have their buyers scroll through their phones and so that totally makes sense. I still think there is something about meeting the artists and seeing their work. Um, so I think there's still a place for them, but I wouldn't be surprised if in like 10 years there isn't any of these trade shows. Speaker 2:                    28:34                That's interesting. I've heard people say that before, um, just even in the rug industry, which you would think with their rug, you would need to touch it and feel it more so than maybe with a pattern because the pattern can go on anything. But that's interesting. Yeah, it is nice to have kind of a meeting place for, um, yeah, like you said, like for the buyer to actually meet the artist and cultivate that relationship. But at the same time, at the end of the day, like there's a little bit of personal in it, but for the most part it's business and they're just going to want the best artwork. Speaker 3:                    29:06                Exactly. And what I learned from, you know, like the big fabric companies like Birch and um, cloud nine they want. This is just like some things I've heard from the show, so this isn't like factor or anything but that I heard that they want to see that you have a following before they sign you to a big fabric deal. Oh, that's interesting. That totally blew my on instagram specifically. Grant, they want you, they wanted, you know, to. I don't, I don't even know what the magic number is. But before, yeah, they want to make sure you have so many followers, you know, because then they know it's safer, you know, because they're like, oh, they have fans already. So these fans. Yeah. So that really was eye opening and it was like, man, I really need to focus on instagram. Speaker 2:                    29:56                No, I'm fine. I mean, this is kind of a tangent, but I find instagram to be so difficult to, um, I guess to gain a true audience on because there's so many people using bots and like on follows and follows and like even when people comment, it's like, you know, I love instagram for the visual aspect of it. Like I'm being an artist. Like I mean I really do love it and I love stories. I love using it, but I don't know, like I went in terms of growth they say to like focus on one platform and I really liked the SEO qualities that pinterest and youtube have because people can search and then the content that you made is evergreen, you know, like as long as you have the key words in there, like it can be found over and over again. Whereas instagram, it's only really relevant for like a day. Um, and he just is so much work. How do people do it? I don't know. Speaker 3:                    30:50                I talked to one woman, her name was Erin and she was, I'm writing an article so we had like a nice little talk about this and she was talking about how like not only do they want like instagram followers, but they want to see how many likes. So because like anyone can, like I could go by in theory a million instagram followers, I'm posting something and there's two likes that's like, oh, there's something off here. And it was just like so many things that I just never thought about like that. And then leaving the show I was like, Oh wow, you know, so. But it gave me a good thing to focus on like you said, because it is hard to like which platform do you focus on? But Speaker 2:                    31:30                yeah, I mean I definitely think instagram is a good one to focus on because it seems like that's what buyers are going to be looking at more so than like they're not going to go to your pinterest and say like, oh, how many people are following her on pinterest? Like maybe they should. Because once you actually look like there are some people that have hundreds of thousands of followers on Pinterest, but it's just not as popular, especially on your phone. Um, as instagram is, Speaker 3:                    31:53                it's so funny because I feel like I use pinterest as a tool for myself and like forget that it is another, like it is another media platform like that. Speaker 2:                    32:02                Yeah. Well, if you're trying to drive traffic to your website, it's really good too. That's what I've kind of found with it is that it's slow, but it's very steady growth. So I feel like when I first got serious about my pinterest strategy, I had about like 300 followers. It was just like my friends from when I first signed up for it, like back in South Carolina when I still lived there and we first met. Um, I mean, yeah, that cod, that was like 10 years ago. I don't know, I'm so old, but um, yeah. But then I started to implement like a more serious pinterest strategy and now I have over a thousand followers on pinterest and it's driving traffic to my website which should lead to sales. You know, so Speaker 3:                    32:49                okay. Speaker 2:                    32:50                You know, but if, if a bigger buyer seeing your stuff on instagram and you get a licensing deal that way, I mean you can go about it obviously multiple ways Speaker 3:                    32:58                but can't hurt to have. Especially because pinches, I feel like it's like you can link instagram to pinterest so you can close on instagram posts on pinterest. Same time completely given up on facebook though. I will say, yeah, well the business, I was like no things. Speaker 2:                    33:15                No, they suck with their algorithm. I think that's what scares me too is that they own instagram. So that's a little scary for me. I'm like, what if they do the same shit? They did the facebook and businesses spent so much time trying to get people to like their business page and I mean facebook owns it and they just took away the. Took it away with the algorithm. It didn't even show up in people's feed. Even if they liked your business page. Speaker 3:                    33:40                I found that and I get annoyed just with like your friends and like you know, so because they did that a couple months ago with instagram where they changed it where it wasn't in chronological anymore. It was like based on what they thought you wanted to see. Yeah. So frustrating. Like I'll make that decision as a woman. Like I will make choices of who I want to follow. Speaker 2:                    34:06                No, it's, it's messed up. I don't really don't like it. You should at least be able to toggle, you know, whether you want to see things and like recent in like chronological order or if you would rather see it based on their algorithm. Like you should be able to choose I think. Speaker 3:                    34:19                Yes. Speaker 2:                    34:23                Yeah. So, sorry for the tangent, but my next question was going to be a, do you think February will be good or bad for Surtex because they, I think they realized that they need to change something. So they've changed it to February, but do you see it as like a good or a bad thing? Speaker 3:                    34:39                I can't Surtex, or not Surtex, is national stationery show moving to February as well. I don't know about that. See, that's the part I should have researched that because certain texts is in this huge, huge convention center and there's Surtex on one side. National Stationery show was right on the other side, so it's all in one big room. And honestly most of the traffic I got was from national stationery show. They didn't realize I had so many people were like, what do you guys do? Like, what are you selling? And they were like, oh, we're part of the like, what's that, you know. So um, I'm wondering if like they're separating them if that is going to hurt them, but it definitely tells me that something is not going right to make because it's been in may forever. Right. So, um, yeah. So I just googled that. And the national stationery show is February third to sixth in 2019. So maybe that does have something. So is that, is that when Surtex is the beginning of February Speaker 2:                    35:45                and I know it's in February. Let me see when the exact dates are because that is an interesting point. Did were any of the artists talking about. Yeah, the dates are the fifth or sorry, the third through the fifth. So they are overlapping. So that's good at their key to they're keeping them together. Yeah, I definitely thought that was interesting. Speaker 3:                    36:12                Um, but I kinda just ignored it because I already knew I wasn't going back. So it was like, well good luck. Hopefully it works out better, but I know there was a, a general vibe in the air of like the artists were not particularly happy Speaker 2:                    36:27                about February, have less than a year to like make their new collections. Right. Speaker 3:                    36:33                Just that like people were like, where is everyone? Like what is this like, you know? And so it was, it was interesting for sure. There's a lot of gossip going on. It was kind of like high school but with pattern designers. Oh Gosh. But that's it [inaudible] like I hate to say I had a bad experience because I didn't cause it was so cool to get to like hang out with likeminded people, you know, how many, how many times have you like hung out with like another pattern designer? Like not very often, you know, so Speaker 2:                    37:09                I will say like my best experience was probably when I studied abroad because I was only with other artists and it was so fun. I loved it and I like grew so much just from being in that environment. Speaker 3:                    37:20                You really do. So that's why like, you know, because people have, I've had people message me on instagram asking about would you do sir again? And um, you know, I never know what to tell them because it's like, oh, financially did not pay off, but personally and like Speaker 2:                    37:36                you just point them to this video Speaker 3:                    37:40                because like typing on the ground, like I hate that. So yeah. Um, Speaker 2:                    37:47                okay. Well, okay. So the next question which we kind of touched on is if you wanted to approach a career in art licensing without attending shows, how would you do it? Speaker 3:                    37:57                Social media. And I heard from several people there, spoonflower, which surprise me because there's a lot of, um, I guess I just never thought of using. I'm sorry, my dogs whining at me. I never thought of using spoonflower as a platform. I just always used it for my personal projects or stuff like this. Um, and so that was really eye opening to me, but it totally makes sense that if you're going to do a fabric collection, you'd go to a place like spoonflower to see. Speaker 2:                    38:31                Right. And I've heard designers also complained that they don't make a lot of sales from spoonflower, but if people are using it in a different way and it's more to get found, that's an interesting point as well. But I correct me if I'm wrong, but when you upload a pattern or designed to spoonflower, they technically own it. Like you can't then go put it on creative market or another platform. Is that right? Speaker 3:                    38:54                I don't think so. I think you still own the rights to it, but if you put it up for sale, like anyone could print that fabric and do whatever they wanted with it or a paper or, you know, make, make their own stuff from it. So that kind of, you know, it was a little unsettling way because you have no control. Right. Right. But yeah, so there's definitely some flaws with it. But like, I have so many patterns that are just sitting in technique, like I also heard at the show that buyers want patterns that nobody's seen. They want to be the first, they want exclusive rights. So basically it's like you put it on Instagram, it's like you, what can you do with that pattern now? Which is so discouraging because it's also how you get found. So it's like this weird double digits. Speaker 2:                    39:44                So much work. I like what you did, but now do something just for us and you're like, okay, then I don't know if you're going to like it. Speaker 3:                    39:52                Exactly. So um, you know, so I've been struggling with that as well because like, yeah, you're trying to build an instagram following but you can't post stuff on instagram because they want exclusive rights. And so a lot of my old patterns and when I say old, I mean they've been out, people have seen them, so they're not exclusive. I had been putting on spoonflower because they're just sitting in my computer. So you know, no one I know for a fact, no one seeing them in my computer. So if I can at least try to get them out, maybe it will lead to more licensing deals. Was my thought process. Speaker 2:                    40:25                Yeah. That's a really interesting point. So is it kind of stuff that maybe you've used as like a piece of a design back in the day and you're like, well I could actually use this and put it out there and like people can see it or maybe it'll sell on spoonflower. Um, is that kind of your thought process? Speaker 3:                    40:42                Basically? Like, so these, I waited, I waited until actually, like last week I started putting on still fire. I wanted to see if I got anything from the show for these particular patterns that I showcased. If I didn't hear anything I was going to put him on spoonflower so I hadn't heard anything. Um, so now I'm starting to upload them and sell them on spoonflower just to know, try to build that following. Yeah. Have you tried, um, pattern bank, just out of curiosity? I haven't. I think you told me about that awhile ago and then I think I looked at it and then it was one of those things that I never followed up on. Speaker 2:                    41:20                Yeah, I mean it, it's hard to, to know which platform to beyond like their spoonflower, which is kind of more for fabric and then there's pattern bank and they both want exclusivity to your work. Not that they own it, but just that you're not selling it on another platform. But it's kind of hard to be like, well, I mean if you're not attracting their customers, I should be able to sell it somewhere else. No, Speaker 3:                    41:45                I actually wanted to sell my patterns on create like places like creative market though for some reason, like, especially like the vector files would make me so nervous. Like if I think if I designed something with the intent that like, okay, this is a vector file, they can do whatever they want. But um, yeah, I. because I do have small fears of being ripped off even though like I had like no followers, instagram, but it's still a legit, legitimate fear when you put artwork out there that someone's going to rip you off. Speaker 2:                    42:19                Oh, they definitely. Well, especially like when you do get big and you will. I mean it's gonna happen. Like do you listen to the honest designers podcast? No. Okay. Well it's really great and I'm. Lisa glands is one of the designers and she's huge. She's like made a really nice living on creative market and kind of inspired me, but she's talked about getting ripped off is a huge problem and I think it's just kind of inevitable. I hate to say that, but unless you want to actually get a lawyer and sue people like Orla Kiely did and she almost went bankrupt to doing that by the way. Um, and she got her point across, but like, I don't know if it's really worth it. Like you could spend all that energy creating new designs rather than like being in court Speaker 3:                    43:06                all the time. A rifle, paper company sued Walmart to Ooh know I need to follow up because that would be a huge. That'd be huge if like she won that for all artists really because it is so, such a prevalent problem in our industry. Speaker 2:                    43:21                It is, it's a huge problem. Yeah. And sometimes like, I dunno, I'm the first drug company that I worked for, they didn't even have designers for awhile so they would just buy things from vendors overseas. So they were working with Chinese vendors, Turkish vendors, Indian vendors, Egyptian vendors, Belgian vendors, like vendors from all over the world. And so if these guys, the vendors you were looking on pinterest or wherever and getting inspired by some someone like rifle paper, Co, they may totally have knocked them off and the sales guy who is just buying stuff wouldn't even necessarily know that because they're not an artist or designer. So it's, it's a problem everywhere. It's hard to control. It's hard to control. But um, anyway, well, Amanda, do you have any kind of final thoughts on Surtex or any final advice for aspiring surface designers? Speaker 3:                    44:16                So I'll tell a quick story from Surtex, um, it was kind of slow afternoon and this woman walked in front of my booth and she was looking at my booth and I could tell she was like, you know, like she's not admiring, but she was definitely like intrigued by is the right word. And I kept looking at her. I was, I know this woman wired, I know her from and it was Elizabeth Olsen and I was like, oh my God, when I realized I was like forever, blah, blah blah, and she can't even talk to me for like 10 minutes. And it was amazing and she was like, she told me, she's like, the biggest mistake new designers make is they give up too easy. And like, I don't even really remember all what we talked about, but that has really stuck with me because, um, I could definitely see how it would be like it'd be so easy to quit after my first cert tech show. Like I think get any art licensing deals. So it'd be like, well, I guess I'm not good at making patterns so I'm going to move on. But it did the exact opposite. Um, and so that would be my advice I guess is a. Speaker 2:                    45:16                I Love that advice. Did you know that um, when I was at genealogy I felt like that because Michael, I don't think it was intentional but he wanted me to just recruit artists instead of like actually work on anything creative. And so I kind of felt like what? Like do I suck, you know? Um, but yeah, I dunno, I got some freelance gigs on the side and that kind of helped boost my confidence. But it is, I mean when you're an artist you're putting your heart and soul out there and it is really easy to get your confidence crushed if you don't have some kind of reassurance. But yeah, I mean you just have to keep going, keep working and you will get better. Like the more you do it, like with anything, Speaker 3:                    45:54                it's just practice especially like on instagram or you know, if like you post something that you really love and it gets like Ken likes this is how we make money. So like, you know, it sounds superficial but like likes are important because that means like, oh, people would be interested in buying us, people would want this. So it is so easy to like Speaker 2:                    46:12                get so discouraged. And then you also think, well, I mean on a platform like instagram, you're like, well, did I just posted the wrong time of day? Is that why nobody is. No one's seeing it in the feed or you know what's happening? Speaker 3:                    46:29                Yeah. So it's been A. Yeah. So don't give up because like you said, like you get better as you go along. You learn things and prove your skills and. Speaker 2:                    46:41                But Hey guys, I'm definitely leave a comment down below and let us know if you have any further questions about Surtex or about becoming a surface pattern designer. Um, we will definitely try to answer those as best as possible. Um, and definitely subscribe to my channel like this video and click the little bell so that you get notified the next time I come out with a new video, you can find me on my website at LaurenLesley.com. Lesley's with an E-Y. And also look into description for a little Freebie pdf that I have for you guys. Amanda, will you tell everyone where they can find you on instagram and on your website? Speaker 3:                    47:23                Yes. So I am at Green Hound press on both my instagram and website. So greenhoundpress.com. And My instagram handle is @greenhoundpress. And so awesome your thing. Speaker 1:                    47:36                And I'm @LaurenLesleyStudio on Instagram. Lesley's with E-Y and um, we're also going to have a podcast version of this video so that if you want to kind of listen along to the next episode, you can subscribe on itunes or spotify and that way you can listen in your car. You don't necessarily have to meet. We also have a facebook group. And thank you guys so much for watching. Amanda, thank you for being here. I really appreciate it. And thanks for sharing your experience. That's my girl. Have you have a good day? Yeah, you too.   .................................... Tags: .................................... Textile Design Textile Designer Surtex Surtex Portfolio Surtex 2019 Is Surtex Worth It in 2019? Surface Pattern Designer Surface Design Pattern Design Design Fabric Pattern Design Fabric Spoonflower Design Patterns Surface Pattern Portfolio Fabric Portfolio Textile Portfolio Textile Design Portfolio Textile Portfolio Examples Textile Portfolio Ideas Art Licensing Art Licensing Show Art Licensing Info Surface Pattern Design

Linda: Has it already happened? Katrina: Yeah. It still says starting. Get your head in the picture, because otherwise you're revealing the trick about our cushions. When your head when down, it just looked like a weird cushion arrangement behind us. Linda: There's some crazy talking going on over here. Katrina: Get rid of it. Kill it dead. Linda: What is this? Katrina: Is that a cage to keep humans in? Linda: Oh my God! No, he's wearing pants. Katrina: What are you doing? Linda: He's wearing pants, it's okay. But I got excited there for a minute. Katrina: Creepy cage for humans. Linda: Hello! Katrina: I'm just getting a little insight into this YouTube selection. Alright. Linda: Hi, we need to pay attention to this. We're here. Katrina: We're present and in attendance. I was on a plane like an argon, I'm just like a freaking professional. Linda: You literally just walked up. Katrina: I just walked off a plane. There might have been three full-blown temper tantrum on that plane had by one of my children. It was much wine required. Linda: And, this took a little bit of time. Let's just be - Katrina: This took a little bit of time to make the set fabulous. Wait, wait. I haven't even shared this. Only on my business page. I'm going to share it to my own page. Hang on, everybody. Just wait. You're going to have to wait. I'm just going to entertain you. Linda: I'm going to entertain you. Katrina: I'm sitting with what will come out of me, I'm unsure. Linda: We were about to call ... What were we going to call the live feed? Katrina: You wanted to call it "Whatever the Fuck Comes Out." Which is actually very accurate. Linda: Yes, we have this amazing set up going on. Katrina: It is amazing, look at it. Hang on, we've had a cushion fail. Linda: Oh my God. Katrina: There's been a cushion fail already. Linda: Fail. Katrina: Hello, hello, hello people in my live stream. Linda: Hello, kids and hello people in mine. We should introduce each other. Katrina: Oh that's an idea. People could just figure it out. Linda: People could just figure out who we are. It would be pretty cool if I choose you to my people. My people. You introduce me to your people. Katrina: That's impressive between peoples. Begin, begin. Begin while I share this. I'm going to share it into my group and then to my other page. Linda: Aw look, that's us. Katrina: We look amazing. It is what it is. Linda: Katrina Routh is a serial internet breaker. Katrina: That's actually true. She just wrote me a small, beautiful card. And in there it's some flowers and my favourite chocolates, and some vegemite. Linda: She deserves it, let's face it. Katrina: I came home to this little, I'm going to call it an alter, to me. But in the card- Linda: It was an expression of love. Katrina: But in the card she said, "to the woman who breaks the internet every day." Linda: I did, I did. Katrina: It was beautiful, actually. Thank you. Linda: No worries, well thank you. For having me in your space. But I mean, who wouldn't want to have me in your space. Katrina: All the time. Thank you M.D. alright, last introduction. I think I [inaudible 00:03:22] your introduction. Linda: You did. That's all she cares. No, I'm kidding. Katrina: You can figure the rest out. Linda: She breaks the internet, apart of that, she's my soul sister friend and she's a kick ass entrepreneur. I really, really honour and admire how much she's standing on truth and just kick ass on the internet. Katrina: And all. Thank you. For those who don't know the amazing, talented, and fabulous Linda Docta, here she is. I've prepared her in the flesh earlier. Many of you know us both and follow us both, but for those who don't know, Linda is one of the ... I'm going to say it this way, because this is the simplest way to explain just how highly I think of this one. Linda is one of the few people in the world whose post I consistently read because she's an incredible messenger and writer. And you know, I'm a content creator, not a consumer. I don't consumer a lot of content from other people. I do consume some people. I consumer some people, and I consume some people's content. But Linda's posts are incredible. She's an incredible [inaudible 00:04:37]. You're one of the few people who is not afraid to say what's actually inside of her, and to share what's coming from the soul. As you know, that's what I believe its all got to be about. That's just one reason why we gt along so well. We have a relationship that is predominately on, somewhat, almost an embarrassing amount of audio messages per day. That goes back and forth from all around the world. Linda: They do. Even in the house. When was it? Before you went to Melbourne. You were downstairs, I was upstairs. And you were audioing me and listening to my audio. Katrina: So we don't hang out in person that often, but Linda's here staying in my home for a few days before she jets off again. And often, I don't know, I'm over in American and she's in Sydney, or I'm in Bali and she's in Melbourne, or wherever we are. Now you're going to be in other places around the world, and I'll be here. That's how it is. So we don't see each other in person that often. What just happened? Okay, Linda's phone literally just turned itself off. Katrina: Alright, well you're going to reboot your phone and we're going to start again. Linda: What is this? Katrina: That's it, you broke the internet. Linda: I did break the internet. Katrina: You can't go around saying shit like that. Linda: It's okay, I'm going to share your post onto my ... Oh. Katrina: Yeah, but that shouldn't have turned itself off. Linda: I don't know. Katrina: Oh, well that's because of that. The turned off because that turned off. Linda: Yeah, it did. Katrina: Linda's phone just completely powered itself down. Linda: We're just going to do it on one phone. Katrina: Just start it again, I reckon. So, we don't meet in person. Katrina: Would you want to put yours back on again? Do yours. Katrina: We don't meed in person too often, but then when we do, it's like no time has passed because we're speaking on audio all the time, every single day, and that's how I feel about all my soulmate people around the world. You sometimes feel confused as to when you last saw them in the physical world because you're connecting with them in other worlds so continuously, right? But anyway, she came in here, when was is? Thursday last week or something. And I'm downstairs eating my little midnight snack, as I do, standing at the kitchen bench. Katrina: Okay, let's wait until this starts again. And we'll tell the story. And I'll just tell it anyway because it might take a while to get going. Yeah so, I'm downstairs in the kitchen, which is just through there. And I'm listening to audios as I do often at 1 A.M. or something, and so then I'm listening to Linda's audio message, and then I realise she's actually upstairs in the bedroom, in one of the spare bedrooms. I'm like, "Oh my God, I'm so addicted to listening to audios from you that I'm still listening to audios from you when you're in my house, upstairs, sleeping." And then I'm writing back. Even though I'll see her in the morning at 6 A.M. I'm like, "I can't wait for that, I'm going to need to audio now." Linda: Peoples! We broke the internet. Yes, I already did tag that girl. She's tagged. Peoples, we already broke the internet. Katrina: Linda's phone spontaneously combusted itself. Linda: It did. Katrina: Self-combusted. So, anyway. You missed the story over there on Linda's side. Linda: Sorry, guys. Katrina: Sorry about that. Linda: She was just telling an awesome story, and I kind of feel a bit like I should have gone more with my intro about you. Because that was really beautiful, thank you for that. Katrina: You made me an altar. Linda: I did. Katrina: That was pretty next level. I've got to take a photo of it, later. Linda: Oh I've got to post that stuff. But that was a beautiful expression, because what you said about speaking truth, because I'm just a reflection of you. You know that, right? You are a woman who just stands in her power, in her truth. Katrina: Thank you. Linda: And you always have been. You're just not afraid to say what's flowing through you. Katrina: It's sometimes scary, though. But thank you. Linda: Yeah, no it's amazing. I admire that. Katrina: Well it's been agreed we're both amazing. I just think we can finish there. Linda: See you, later. Cheers! Katrina: Cheers to being amazing. Linda: Cheers. And this is funny because I never drink. [inaudible 00:08:37] Katrina: Never, never. Linda: I feel so naughty. Katrina: Continually breaking the internet now. Well my new programme is part of the internet, so it's only appropriate. But, it is so relevant because the more you stand in your power and in your truth, isn't it true that you're just going to attract in those soulmate people who stand in their truth, and so then you honour that person, like I honour you, for the way you sharpen them, you're honouring me. And then it's just going to turn into a never ending cycle of we both think the other one is amazing, which means that it's a reflection of us. Linda: Yeah! Katrina: It just keeps going. Linda: It's like, you're amazing. No you're amazing. You're amazing. Katrina: Exactly. Linda: And then, it ends up being an altar on the kitchen table. Katrina: You end up coming home off a flight from the other side of the country, and you walk in and your soul sister forever finds you an altar on the kitchen table, vegemite included in the altar. Linda: You know what I should have done? I should have just laid myself down on the table, naked. Katrina: You're reminding me of this thing from Sex and The City, where the guy lays ... No, she's about to lay down naked with sushi all over her body. What's his name? The young guy that she's dating? And then he doesn't come home, though. And then she's laying there on the table for hours covered in sushi, and he just never comes home. He comes home like four hours later or something. And she's still laying there covered in sushi. Katrina: Okay, I was going to do a nice segue into the conscious relationships conversation, but instead we're talking about Samantha from Sex and the City covered naked in sushi. Linda: See, we should have called it Whatever the Fuck comes out. Katrina: Well we were just saying, it is the perfect union to the topic of conscious relationships, which may or may not be what we talk about. Because it will be whatever the fuck comes out. Linda: Exactly. Katrina: But that's ... People say to me all the time, I'm sure you hear this as well. But probably one of the most common things I do hear from people in my community is what an amazing friendship, when they see me with my soul sister friends, right? Like I'll get comments on that a lot, like, "Wow, what an incredible, beautiful friendship." Okay, oh my God. Jermaine literally just wrote what I'm talking about. She wrote, "Gorgeous ladies, #soulmatefriendgoals." Linda: Aw, that's amazing. Thank you. Katrina: So I hear that all the time because I do only have women in my life who are deep, soul sister connected friends. Deep soul sister, however you want to say it. And that's definitely ... Katrina: Okay, you have a marriage proposal over there. I think we should address it. Linda: Aww. Katrina: That's not a wall, actually, Maria, that's a painting that my sister-in-law painted for me. It's not a wall, it's a painting. Linda: Do we need to address this marriage proposal? Katrina: Linda's been proposed to. Linda: I've been proposed to. Katrina: On her live steam. Linda: What should I say? Katrina: We'll consider your offer. We'll get back to you. Linda: Let me sit with it. Katrina: What does your soul say? Linda: Stop, stop now. Stop now. Katrina: What does your soul have to say about this? What are we going to talk about? Where is this conversation going? Linda: I don't know. Katrina: Do you think that life just gets better and better and easier and easier? Linda: I think so. Katrina: Do you think that we have almost an inappropriate amount of fun, except that nobody realises that you meant to have so much fun all the time? Linda: Yeah but here's the thing. I go in and out of having a lot of fun and then sometimes I get very, very serious in my work. Katrina: Sometimes you get a litter angry. Linda: What do you mean? Katrina: When the passion really comes out. Warrior Linda. Linda: You've had some amazing audio from me lately. Katrina: I've seen the warrior ninja come through a few times. I've seen the [inaudible 00:12:13] ninja, as well, in fact it was doing back flips in my bedroom the other night. Linda: She calls me an "it." Katrina: I meant the ninja. I'm calling it an it, it's an extension of you. Okay, go, you were saying about getting serious. Linda: No, but I have another story. See, I swap stories. I'm a Gemini, just to let you know. I'm a Gemini, so I start a sentence, and then I never finish. And I start another one, I don't finish that either. So I start three different stories in one go. Katrina: And then meanwhile, I'll be doing the exact same thing [inaudible 00:12:46]. Linda: And then she cuts me off and we never get anywhere. Katrina: So, if you're hoping to take some kind of orderly notes from this evening's session, we're going to need to let you know that's not going to happen. But sit back, buckle up, enjoy the ride, and trust you will receive whatever it is that you'll hear divinely to receive. Linda: Whatever your soul is wanting to receive, it's always the perfect timing. Katrina: Exactly. Linda: What I was saying - Katrina: You said sometimes you get really serious. Linda: No, before that. There was another story that cuts off what I was saying. I need to finish this story, first. Katrina: Just let it come on. Linda: It comes out really fast. So, only today, because you were talking about the ninja stuff. I only got a reminder in my phone, in my memories, that it was only a year ago exactly, I was competing in the ninja championship. Katrina: Was that already a year ago? Linda: Yeah, yep. It was. Katrina: So cool. Linda: So what I was saying before the ninja, that yeah, I feel myself going in and out of having a lot of fun, and fun is one of my highest values. Katrina: Yeah. Linda: And play vibrates the same as prey. Play is one of the highest vibrations, so - Katrina: Explain that. Linda: Imagine having fun, like think about the vibration you're in when you're having fun. Like think about how you're actually feeling, there's no ego when you're just full of joy. When you just ... you're immersed in this bubble of love and joy. An ego doesn't exist in that moment, it's just an embodiment of excitement, fun, love. Katrina: You're completely present. Linda: Exactly. You're fully present. Katrina: An ego can't be there when you're completely present. Linda: No, it can't. Katrina: I just had breakthrough moment, already. Not being a smart ass, either, it sounded slightly like I was. Isn't that a powerful concept. Linda: Is it. It is. And I continue to remind myself to have fun, because sometimes I feel like, oh shit, maybe I'm just caught up too much in my serious side, or introspection. Katrina: You are one of the most fun people I know and I'll give you a case study. Linda: Case study? Katrina: Case study. Linda: I cannot guarantee what she's going to say tonight, so. Katrina: It's not that outrageous. But one time I wanted to take my friends to the indoor ... children's ... my friends? - I wanted to make my children to the indoor, you know they have the indoor play centres, right? It was a really rainy Saturday on the Gold Coast sometime last year, back in [inaudible 00:15:14]. My kids are driving me crazy, I'm like, I've got to go to the indoor play centre, but I was like, I need some adult time. I was actually just losing my shit. And I was like, "Who can I invite to come to an indoor kid's play centre with me?" And all my friends who had kids were occupied or busy already, and I'm like which of my friends who doesn't have kids could I invite to come to the indoor play centre with me? I'm like, Linda. Obviously. Katrina: So I audioed her, I'm like, "Hey do you want - it's called Juddlebugs - I'm like do you want to come to Juddlebugs?" She's like, "What's Juddlebugs?" I'm trying to describe it, I'm like "There's like a netting thing you get trapped in and you fall down, and there's slides and you can shoot people and then there's a foam pit." And she's like, "How have I never heard of this?" Linda: And I was going off on you. How dare you not tell me there's a place called Juddlebugs? How dare you? Katrina: But we had the best afternoon. We got trapped upside down in the spiderweb for an unreasonable ... We nearly did a live stream up there. Linda: We did, almost. Katrina: That would be inappropriate. But you are a fun orientated person and I think I've learned a lot about having fun. Kids themed party for adults, that's an awesome idea, AJ. Linda: Oh, yeah. Was I having this conversation with you, AJ? We need to create, yeah you were only saying that the other day at breakfast, yesterday. Katrina: Yeah, I've learned a lot about having fun from you, but I think that that concept of there being no ego in it, is really, really interesting and really powerful. And it's a reminder that if we can get into being present, then I think ... Okay, fun is one thing, then I think we also, that is the place where we access our highest [inaudible 00:16:53] areas, in terms of, for example, greatest creative flow, right? I know that when I get into silliness, playing, silliness, being frivolous, maybe a little bit reckless, or kind of making a fool of yourself, that sort of thing, sometimes I don't know, I'd be curious to know if you feel this way, sometimes when I get really silly and really kind of frivolous and lighthearted, I'll feel a slight shame feeling afterwards. For self-consciousness, where I feel a little - Linda: Like you're judging yourself? Katrina: Do I embarrass myself, did I make a fool of it? Linda: The ego comes back in? Katrina: Yeah, the ego's coming back in afterwards. But then, at the same time, and I'll notice it afterwards, and it feels kind of like a walk of shame type of feeling. Like, did I really do that? And the thing is though, that I don't allow that to infiltrate me and stop me from going wherever I go in my energy when I'm on a live stream, for example, or whatever it is I'm doing in any situation. Because I know that I get into such an amazing creative flow and I get all the downloads when I'm in that place. But then afterwards, my human mind will come back in and be like, "Oh you probably pushed it a little too far," or, "You're making a fool of yourself," or, "People probably think you're off your head." All my judgements come through. Linda: Yeah, yeah. Katrina: But I still do it. I still do it. I notice them and observe them. I'm like, "Okay, thank you for showing up and telling me all the reasons I'm not good enough. I'm going to keep going anyway." Linda: Yeah, yeah. It's amazing to be your own observer. Here's the thing, we all have an inner child within us. We all have an inner child, and sometimes when we get in on this conscious journey of growth and conscious growth and there's ego and then there's a spiritual ego that can come and slap - Katrina: Oh, that's a [crosstalk 00:18:39]. Linda: Yeah, yeah. So I've definitely been wacked left, right, and centre by the spiritual ego sometimes. As you start moving through this experience, you go into that judgement of, "Now I can't be silly because I'm conscious or spiritual." Katrina: Ah, I so nearly put a post up tonight, I'm not even kidding, the only reason I didn't post this on Facebook an hour ago is because I just posted to say we're going to do this. Linda: Well, see, who's a mind reader. Katrina: And I nearly wrote something like, "Be careful not to get so fucking involved that you can't," I don't know. I can't even remember what then ending of what I was going to say is. That like, you become so freaking involved that your whole thing is how involved you are. Linda: Yeah. Katrina: Be careful of the ego that is attached to walking around being like, "Oh I've had all the ego deaths." Yeah, but that's ego, so. And we all do it. Spiritual ego. Linda: Yeah, it's a very interesting concept and to ... I love being my own observer of just allowing myself to be with ease, I don't go into judgement that often. I'm like, "Okay, that was a fascinating, internal response." Katrina: Right, that's similar to what I'll say to myself, like curiosity. Linda: Yeah, it's like, okay. Katrina: Observation. Linda: Okay, that was fascinating. I'm interested why I responded internally that way. Katrina: Yeah, that was an interesting [inaudible 00:20:06]. Linda: And still, I've moved away from that judgement , I'm just like, "I wonder where that came from?" Katrina: Yeah, that's actually really similar to ... I talk about that a lot with clients, as well. I definitely still have those self judgmental reactions come through, but the way that I persist them is curiosity or lightheartedness. My two favourite ones. Linda: Really important. Katrina: When I say lightheartedness, let's say you said something or did something, maybe on a Facebook live like this, or maybe in a one-on-one conversation with somebody, and you really feel that you went quite far with vulnerability and you exposed yourself, and then you go out of that situation and you feel like a need to protect yourself or you feel like maybe you went too far and you put yourself in some vulnerable space or place, and then maybe the judgements comes up, like it could either be, "Yeah, well that was an interesting choice, I wonder why I chose to do that, let me get curious about that," or it could literally be like, "Oh, how silly, how cute. That's really funny, I wonder why I chose that." Or it could even be you did something that really caused some sort of sabotage, right? We've both spoken publicly many times about backgrounds of self-sabotage, and then those old patterns can sometimes try to continue to knock on the door. Many times, people ... I don't want to call it relapse, maybe not the best word, not my favourite word anyway. But many times, people will pick up an old sabotaging pattern and then they'll tend to feel like, "I'm bad, and I'm weak willed, and I got to hate on myself, and why did I do this?" Katrina: And instead, and I speak about this a lot with a lot of clients who have struggled with binge eating and if the binge eating comes back ... I have bulimia for 10 years, so I understand it, right? And they'll be like, "Oh my God, this is fucked up, what did I do?" And I'm like, "Wait no, what if instead, it was 'Oh, wow. I wonder why you needed that? Let's get curious about that. What was it inside you that needed that?'" Or also, even to smile about something that perviously felt so heavy and to make it lighthearted. It takes the power out of it and actually gives you back your power. Linda: Yeah, yeah. And conscious, when I say, because we said in the title "Conscious Relationship" it's not just conscious relating with another person or in an actual partnership or relationship, it's also how we're consciously relating to ourselves and what kind or relationship we're having to ourselves. Katrina: 100% Linda: And I think that's even more important to dive into, because if you don't understand yourself, then how can you consciously relate to another human being, if you don't understand your own ways of internal response and dimension and your operation system. Katrina: Yeah, I love that, and it's funny because I think when we said we'd talk about conscious relationships, we said that to each other earlier today, and I think we sort of thought, relationships with other people, but when I was on the plane just before, I was thinking, I feel like this is going to be more about the relationship with self, because the place that we create epic relationships with other people from, even an amazing friendship, an amazing client-mentor relationship. I always say that my clients, so many clients, it wasn't always that way. It could be a romantic relationship, as well. All the different relationships. In order to call it or allowing or flowing to incredible incredible conscious relationships with other individuals, we have to first be in an incredible conscious relationship with our own selves. Linda: Absolutely. Katrina: And in a space of non-judgment, understanding, compassion, and full acceptance. Linda: I only wrote a blog about that this morning. That I got inspired by someone who asks me yesterday, "Linda, why haven't you been swept off your feet yet?" And I didn't get triggered or anything like that, it just simply inspired me to talk about it openly and to express myself why that is, and just put a little slightly different perspective on it, as well. And take it into the relating with self, because if we want someone to show up for us, if we want someone to be present with us, we have to be present with ourselves, first. We have to show up for ourselves, first. Linda: Quite often, we're longing for something, we're wanting, we're even needing. So there's a needing ness and you are filling a void within us, that we haven't even actually given ourselves. And if we're not giving ourselves, then how can we truly experience that outside of ourselves? Katrina: Well you learn you receive from others what you're giving to yourself. That's the reality. So if you feel, maybe sometimes you get frustrated or angry, this happens a lot with coaches and with their clients, and it happens with men and women in romantic relationships, it even happens in friendships and family dynamics, also. I guess I hear it fairly frequently in the coaching industry, "I seem to have all these clients who are behind on their payments," or whatever, right? Some sort of pardon like that. And it's always like, "Okay cool, this is great, this is great feedback and information because this is a great opportunity to look at where am I not honouring myself?" Linda: Absolutely. Katrina: And yeah, the think with relationships that I think sometimes we all forget, I know give forgotten this or put it aside at times, is there'll always be instability there. The goal is not to get to some sort of place of done, sorted, everything's predicted and predictable. Imagine how fucking boring that'd be, anyways. But it's growth, relationships are there for our growth, right? Exactly, AJ just that's where we attractively show our voids. Linda: Yeah. Katrina: So when you have people in your life, any area of your life, who you feel like their causing you to feel something, it's always "Wow, thank you, because this allows me to see an area in myself where I wasn't paying attention, where I wasn't honouring myself." Can I give an example that's a little bit naughty? Of course I can. Linda: Are you asking for permission? Katrina: I don't know. I don't know. When I was on the live stream last week, Chris told me not to swear, I was like, "What?" But it's because we were going to use it for a Facebook ad. I'm like, "Mother fucker." He's like, "You can't swear." I'm like, "What do you mean I can't swear?" Katrina: Okay, so I had an awareness only very recently, actually. I had always thought, not always, but I had frequently felt frustrated that when I have sex with Mare, he would very rarely pay attention to my breasts. All men, I don't mean one individual man, right? But it was a pattern that I noticed. I felt frustrated that men would just kind of ignore my breasts. They would sometimes even just leave my top of and just go down there, and not always, but a high percentage of the time. And I definitely had a story in my head that this is because I have fairly small breast and that's the reason why. And I was 100% certain about that. And then, long story short, I realised that, "Holy shit. I never give my breasts love and attention. I never pay attention," previously never. I was never paying them attention, I was not giving them any love, any touch, any affection, I didn't really consider them ... I didn't dislike my breasts at all, actually I find them very practical for fitness reasons, but if we take that story even further back, though, and I did blog about it. Yeah, Marie, I did blog about it a week or two ago. Katrina: Because I'm actually having breast enlargement surgery in two days. And I'm so grateful I realised all this before that was coming through, right? Because that's coming from a place of desire, not from a place of trying to fill a need. But with this, if you go back even further, when I was a teenage, I had really big boobs. And when I was in my late teens. And people would comment on it often and I would wear low cut tops often, and I wasn't heavy either. I just actually had big boobs. But then I would learn from my mom, about be careful because men are going to whatever. I got the message that I was being too sexual, and I really think when I look back now, I think I manifested them way. Because now look, they're like an A cup or whatever, they're a small B, maybe. But yeah, it was just this interesting realisation of I'm walking around going, "What the fuck is with these dudes that don't take the time to touch the rest of my body because that's what I really want and that's really what opens you up as a women, to have that attention to all areas, not just, obviously." Katrina: Whether or not it's obviously, if it's not obvious, now you know. Welcome. And then I'm like, "Oh my God, holy fucking wake up call. I get to love on myself in that area." And I'm not kidding, within four days of when I started to give attention in that area and then I had a sexual experience and it was like, "Yeah, I'm like ..." Linda: But see, this flows into all areas of life. It's not just what we experience with relationships. It's actually in all areas. So I'm just going to invite you into a moment of introspection and to really reflect on in what area of your life are you feeling that, "Oh I'm not receiving what I'm actually wanting?" And you're kind of blocking yourself from that. In what area of you're life, is it maybe money, it is money stuff? What's your relationship with money, how you speak to money, what do you feel about money? If you're someone who wants to contentiously create that or you want to consciously create a beautiful relationship, or experience certain things. Then you have to look inside, first, and check in, are you giving yourself that? That was a beautiful example. That was a really beautiful example. Katrina: And that's a physical example, but it's also with the emotional stuff. Linda: Yeah, yeah. Katrina: And any time we're looking for something to fill a need in us, money is a great example, if I had that money then I'd be safe, I'd be free, then I'd be credible, then I'd be good enough. It's always like, "Oh, wow." As soon as you realise that, how can I give that to myself. Well actually, how you can give any of these things to yourself is to decide to. It's not something you've got to go out and work for. You can do it in this moment. Linda: Absolutely. It's simply a choice. It's decision to do so in an instant because we can so easily get caught up, and like you said before, when I get there, then I'll be good enough. When I lose this weight, then I'll feel good enough, or then I'll feel beautiful. Or that was just one example. Katrina: Or when I make the money then I'm safe or then I'm worthy. Linda: Then I'm successful. Katrina: Then I can relax in my life, then I can have fun in my life, then I can be happy. Or when somebody loves me then this, then this, then this. So anything that we're putting onto a pedestal like that, we're saying, "If I have this thing outside of myself, then I can experience and live in the emotions and energies that I desire." It causes you to actually push it away. It means that you hold the thing that you want at arms length, it's a lesson that you've got to learn. Is that you get to give that to yourself. So when you continue in that pattern, it's kind of like, "Oh, okay cool. I see that you just want to keep learning that same lesson again and again and again." Interesting choice. Linda: Isn't it interesting when the universe continues to teach you the same lessons until you learn? I'm just reflecting back on some of my own patterns, and like, oh my God. Katrina: Right, right. Linda: And it just clicks. I'm like, "Okay, well I haven't been honouring myself in that area," or "I haven't been giving myself attention in that area." Katrina: Yeah. Okay, we're back. We just froze over here. Linda: She broke the internet again. I mean, we broke it. Katrina: You put it into words on the card over there. Linda: I did. Katrina: Now it just keeps happening. Linda: We're manifesting it. Conscious creation. What was I talking about before? Going on tangents. Katrina: You were talking about how there's been times where you've noticed you learning the same lesson again and again and again. And then it's like, "Okay. I'm finally done with learning that lesson." Linda: Yeah, yeah. And the learning can be in an absolute instant. You choose to shift your internal matrix and you just chose to observe what's happening. And you chose to - Katrina: It's an instantaneous decision. Linda: Yeah, absolutely. And how quickly your outer matrix can shift with that. Katrina: Yeah. Completely. Linda: So phenomenal. Katrina: It's amazing. I mean, earlier on this week, you know I was in Bali until Wednesday. I remember Monday, I think ... Well we audio every day, anyway. But I was really feeling kind of stuck and in some heavy energies, and you know where it's up in your face, I get anxiety sometimes. And I was having a pretty extreme anxiety day, which I hadn't had in a while, and I was really just not enjoying that feeling of it. But at the same time, I remember I walked into the gym and I remember saying to myself, "This will shift. As much as in this moment of insane anxiety and feeling frustrated or whatever it was that I was experiencing, as much as that felt real." I was so aware, I guess, from all the work that I've done over the years and the way I live my life, I was like, "This could shift any moment." And from now on I might feel on top of the fucking world and completely understand all my madness and why I was making something into a really big thing. Or I might stay in a state or feeling stuck and anxious and frustrated or trapped or whatever for the whole day, and either what it's okay, either way it is what is, and that's all it is, and that's okay. Katrina: But I think that sometimes when we're in that state of feeling like, "Why can I have what I want and why is money evading me or why is this happening or why is my business here or why are my relationships like this or whatever," that we get so caught up in this kind of story of "This is not fair and why am I getting [inaudible 00:34:18] this instead of just being like this could change in an instant based on your own thoughts," I don't mean based on something happened. I mean based on you suddenly get some new perspective and on that day earlier this week, I said just kind of a simple loose intention in my mind that this will get to shift and that they'll be a way for me to be empowered by this situation that was causing me to feel a bit panicked, and I felt like, "How could that happen?" Because there is something that makes me feel upset. Katrina: And I'm not kidding, like two hours later, I was like, "Holy shit, wow. I feel so grateful for this now because I just realised how I'm not addressing whatever area inside of and that I now get to learn about this, and oh my God, I'm so glad that this happened to cause me to go into this anxiety of this crazy tail spin." I had to sit in it and marinate in it and it didn't feel fun, but even when you're in that state, like we know that it's for our greater good, right? Linda: Always. Katrina: So we might be like, "Ah this feels like shit. This has been dragged through the ringer, and put on a freaking spin cycle and then you go ten rounds after that, and then somebody" ... But you still know that it's for your learning and growth. So even in the mists of the worst of it, you're like, "And I'm getting fucking strong as a mother fucker." Watch me grow. Linda: Watch me grow, watch me expand. Katrina: We talk about this all the time. Linda: We do, we do. I think it's really powerful how we can go into, even when we're triggered, so this is the thing, previously the gratitude always comes after, the learning comes after. You're not going to get clarity and learning and wisdom when you're full of emotion. You need to left that shift. You need to be with it. But can you be your own observer at the same time? And instantly, while you're having that experience of, "I feel really shit. I feel really challenged." Can you be your own observer and go, "Hey I'm still grateful, because I'm being shown something that I'm not quite getting yet. Katrina: Right. I don't know what it is yet, but I know that it's here for a reason. Linda: It's here for a reason, it's here for my greater good, and I get to learn something. I get to be a better version of myself as I come through this. Katrina: Yeah. It's just when I'm triggered, I'm secretly happy because I know I'm healing. Linda: Yeah. I love that. I love that expression. Katrina: Well even on the plane just then, my four year old had three next level tantrums on the flight that were just so bad, so full on. I'm first I was conscious as fuck. I'm using conscious communication with my child, everybody probably so impressed by me. I was staying super calm, I was very proud of myself, right? And I got him through the first tantrum. Katrina: But then he had another one. And I felt myself start to break a little bit. I was like, "Fucking." I didn't say that, but that's what I was feeling, right. I was going to be like skanky bogan mom on the plane. But I didn't. But I was feeling it. But it was so full on. He's just like that when he's not ... he's a free spirit. Linda: Auntie Linda never gets those attacks, let's just leave it like that. Katrina: You can freaking fly with him. But honestly, at the same time, there was this small part of me that was like, "I'm becoming a warrior right now as a mother." I'm learning and growing. Okay he did break me a little bit, there was one point when the stewardess come up and I may have just been sitting on the tray table ignoring him while he jumped up and down in the seat and threw a marinate sauce on the guy in front of me. Linda: What? You didn't tell me that part. Katrina: I didn't have time to tell you anything, I got home and we went straight into the live stream. It was a small moment there where I was like, "I'm just going to pretend this is not happening and I'm not even going to try to do anything about it." Linda: As he was throwing sauce at people. Katrina: And the stewardess is like, "Could you stop standing up on the seat, please, the captain's going to come out and get you." And he was like, "No he's not." But he goes, "Never!" He refuses to sit. Linda: I love Nathan, he's just so unapologetic in his stuff. Katrina: Yeah and then she's like, "Wow, he's quite stern mood isn't he?" I'm like ... Linda: He's just unapologetic. He doesn't take no for an answer. Katrina: I really did break a little bit. I was like, "This is too hard. I just want to drink my wine and write in my fucking journal." Linda: I honour all the moms out there, honestly. I really honour all the moms because I don't have kids myself, yet, it might be an experience that I get to have in this lifetime, it may not, you know, either way I'm okay. But it's beautiful to watch from a distance. Katrina: Honestly, even through that, I'm just like, you go into this place when that shit happens on a plane where you're like, "I'm just going to choose to not allow anyone else' perceptions to impact me right now. I'm going to be in my space, with my child doing the best I can fucking do and now worrying about what everybody else is thinking about it." But there was definitely that part of me that was like, "I'm growing from this experience." And it's like what AJ just said about when you get triggered, and yeah, anything shit's going on for us and we always share what we're working through and what we're processing and stuff that's coming up. Linda: But we still have our tantrums, as well. Katrina: Ah, yeah. Linda: Some of our audience, like yesterday - Katrina: Sometimes we're extraordinarily immature. Linda: Oh my God. I just make - Katrina: Yesterday was an interesting day. Linda: Oh my God. But we also have these tantrums. Conscious tantrums. It's hilarious. Katrina: #concioustantrums. We do. It's release. Linda: Yeah, it is. Katrina: The thing is, even when we're having a tantrum through, we're aware and we know what we're doing. Linda: Yeah. Katrina: And we talk about it, usually at the same time. Not even afterward. But you won't be like, "losing your shit," or "I'm losing my shit," or whatever, and in the same audio, we're like, "Oh, well then I also understand that blah blah blah." And it's like, people don't talk like that normally with their friends. We give ourselves credit and give yourself credit if you are catching yourself, even a little bit. Because it's not about being so fucking involved that you're not in a human experience at all. But I think that one of the most powerful things is to be able to catch yourself and to notice it. Linda: Absolutely, absolutely. And like I said, be that own observer on the side. And go, "Okay, I'm allowing myself to just be [inaudible 00:40:56], I'm allowing myself to be with this." Katrina: Right. Linda: I'm allowing myself to be a little brat. And like I was saying yesterday, I just want to fucking kick and scream. But I'm not going to. [crosstalk 00:41:07]. And then just verbalise it, which is an expression of releasing. What was I saying? I either feel like having two litres in wine and I hardly ever drink or I want to have two litres of ice cream, which is not an option, or give me a bucket of peanut butter, or - Katrina: What is that, that's on the table over there? Linda: Where? Katrina: That packet of interesting items that I threw on the table down there. Linda: It's for you, my dear. Katrina: Did you buy me peanut butter? We needed some peanut butter in this house. [inaudible 00:41:43] Linda: We have peanut butter cuddles. Katrina: Well, you know what, what do you think ... peanut butter orgasms are also a thing that people need to be aware of. But that may be a topic for another live stream. But what do you think about, we were talking before about having fun and how important fun is, so fun is something that's often thought of as a childhood type thing, right? Children naturally know how to really be in a set of higher fun. Well children are also fabulous at having next level temper tantrums. So do you think it's just totally okay to be ... if you're going to be in that child energy of play and fun and lightheartedness and frivolity, why don't you get ... This is still live, Patrick - Linda: Yeah, it's life. Katrina: No need to replay. Why don't you get to also ... Well you don't necessarily get to lay down on the floor in the airport like my son does and kick and scream. Linda: But could you imagine though? Next time we go travelling, we should ... you have the phone, I'll do the thing. Honestly, we can do some skits. Katrina: That would be hilarious. [crosstalk 00:42:51]. I want the fucking peanut butter! They took my peanut butter off me at security! Totally. But it's actually not that funny because we're talking about, as adults, we learn to restrict our expression of our emotion. Linda: Right. Yeah. And we get so suppressed, but it's a form of release and no wonder we're so programmed to repress and not express ourselves, no wonder all of the sudden all these things are bubbling up inside, and then we just snap at the smallest little thing because we haven't been taught how to express ourselves. We haven't been taught how to create healthy containers to release our emotions and the energy from our bodies. And here's the thing, our physical bodies are going to store emotion and if we're not creating healthy containers to let go of that and to constantly release, like crying is a form of release, and we've even made crying bad. That crying is weak. Katrina: Right, right. It's a method as well. Linda: It's a mode of healing. Katrina: Absolutely. But it's also, if you continue to hold back what you're acting thinking and feeling from yourself, nevermind the other people in your life, then actually over time, you accidentally created yourself into a version of yourself which is not the real you. Linda: Yeah. Katrina: Because every single time you make a choice to respond from, "This is how I should show up or behave in this situation, as opposed to this is my true self, my true soul," you just made a small adjustment off track. And if you're doing that day by day, multiples times throughout the day, you kind of cultivating yourself into being this service based, masked version of yourself. And so then you wonder, why your relationships aren't working, why you can't seem to attract in those ideal soulmate clients, if you're an entrepreneur. I had a client a year or so ago say something about there's always these conflicts like friendships, and at the time I was like, "Wow, I don't have any conflict in my friendships." Now, I'm saying I don't experience conflict ever in my friendships, but it certainly not something where ... I don't expect it or I don't really think of it as normal, right? I wouldn't expect that we are friends would have some kind of conflict. Of course it's possible, nothing's impossible, but to me that's a soul aligned relationship, whether it's client or a friend or something different in the personal life. Katrina: I don't look at that as there should be currents of turmoil. Now if there would, that would be okay as well. Because it is what it is. But it's more that when the soul connection is there, there's an actual real true understanding of who we each are as individuals. It's not based on some service masked foundation, is what I'm saying. Linda: Right, yeah. Katrina: So therefor, there's actual legitimate acceptance of each other on a soul level, not just, "Oh yeah, you say the things or do the thing or have the things in your life that similar to me and so we'll be friends." Linda: Yeah, absolutely. And I think you and I are similar in many ways, but we're also so different in so many ways, and I think I remember ages and ages ago when I was just playing at a different level of consciousness, to just observe my human connections and relationships that I had back then and it was kind of like this ego game of, "Oh why wouldn't you like that? We can't be friends now." It wasn't honouring people ad accepting people for who they were. And now that I find with all of my friends, who I connect with on a soul level, we may not agree with everything, we may not do everything the same way, but we're fully honouring each other for who we are. Katrina: Completely Linda: And accepting each other for who we are. Katrina: Yeah. Linda: And life really isn't about, like you said earlier, touched on how we tend to lose ourselves because we're told who to be and we're told how to live our life, we are operating from this mask. And we're not even ourselves. And quite often we hear this expression of I just want to go and find myself. It isn't about finding yourself. Life is about remembering who you aare. Because everything is inside of you. We've all been born a free spirit of love, we all have an inner child within ourselves, so it's the programming of society that puts you in a box and tells you how to live your life, what to believe, how to ... We're even been thought what to think. We're being thought what to feel, in this type of situation, you should feel this. Katrina: Right. [crosstalk 00:47:34] Linda: And every single part of our life is manufactured in this system. So quite often we hear about, "Oh I'm going to go around the world to find myself." We don't need to go around the world to find ourselves. We can literally sit in stillness and just think right here and start to peel back the layers of who we're not. Who we've been told to be. And that's really powerful. It's not about, "Hey I want to figure out everything at once," that's not how it works. You figure something out about yourself, start to remember who you are on certain levels. It's like the onion. You peel back one layer and then there's something else under that. Linda: We run away from ourselves, yeah. I definitely run away from myself. A lot, in fact, back in the day. Because I couldn't face and stand the person who I was. So I did everything and anything to continue to numb and escape from my reality. Katrina: Right, yeah. There's a lot of things that are on the surface that could look like fabulous life choices, travels one of them. Which people might use in some cases, for numbing or escaping, but it's all about the place it's coming from. Because it can be coming, obviously from a place of hiding value and grounding and expanding, or it could be coming from a place of hiding. Like alcohol is one example of that. Sometimes people drink alcohol to obviously escape and run and hide, and then other times alcohol is expanding a higher vibe of abundance energy, basically. So it's all about where you already are, but either way, you've got to be giving yourself everything you need. If you think going on a silent meditation or going to a retreat or doing a course or getting a coach or getting a partner or whatever it is that's going "to change everything for me, that's going to fix me, that's going to give me what I need. I need this, I have to do it." It's like, "Well cool, do it if you feel called to do it, whatever it is." But you're actually still going to need to figure out how to give that to yourself at some point. Linda: Really good point. Katrina: You're not going to get it from going to that thing, paying that person, doing that thing. Linda: Yeah, absolutely. People can guide us, absolutely, but at the end of the day, a good coach is someone who guides and teaches for you to how to heal yourself, how to be more of you, how to connect to your truth and your believes around things, and how to be your own observer. So you're not relying on an external coach all the time. Or you're not relying on another external resource. Katrina: Yeah, I read about this. I did a little [inaudible 00:50:14] as my plane was taking off about maximum abuse learnings around relationships, business and personal, and like I mentioned specifically, a mentor shouldn't be telling you what to do. I believe a mentor is to help you remember how to be your be your own [inaudible 00:50:32], but a mentor is there to be more of who you are and connect to your soul, connect to your intuition and your own guidance and wisdom. Not to tell you, "Here's the rules and you must do this in order to get this result." Linda: Yeah, absolutely. And it's powerful when you can start to tune into yourself and listen to your own soul and allow your inner compass to guide you, and I'm very big on that. Katrina: Yes. Your soul always knows. Linda: Your could always knows. I actually have to admit to one thing. This year, I ended up getting caught up with events, like person - Personal growth is one of my highest values, and I love ... I can throw my money on personal growth. Coaching, mentoring, events, all this stuff. And I found myself doing one event after another, one course after another - Katrina: Yeah you were in a - Linda: ... I'm like, "Holy shit, this is actually too much." What am I actually searching from these events? Is that thing of, "Ah, I want to expand more, I want to evolve my consciousness more. And I don't feel good enough." So that was really interesting to obverse myself in that. But I caught myself. I was completely honest with myself. I'm being honest with you here as well. It doesn't matter how much you continue to evolve, you'll never get to a stage where, "Okay, I've had enough now." Katrina: Yep. Linda: But also, be careful that you're not going the other way of "I want more and more and more." Because you can't be okay with what you have inside of you. Katrina: Right. Like learn ... yeah. Learning, growth work, is a great example of what we were just saying. A lot of people use growth work to escape from being in the now and from living their lives. In fact, you know Bali, like we're both obsessed with Bali and we both go to Bali a lot. You're leaving back again Tuesday for Bali, right? And I just came back from Bali on Wednesday and I go there every month. Linda: And you're coming back for my birthday. Katrina: I'm going back to Bali for your birthday, of course, in a few weeks. So Bali though, is a place ... There's an expression about Bali I remember hearing, it's like, it can be a place for the internal wanderer. Now, nothing wrong with being an internal wanderer, but specially there's a lot of people who go to Bali and 20 years later are still in Bali and have not, as I would call it, pressed fucking play on anything, they're just floating around freaking Bali being healed and cleansed. Bali cleanse. Linda: That is starting. Katrina: We have our own detention of what a Bali cleanse may entail. But there is. There's a lot of people in Bali who are amazing artists and messengers, but who have not put a single bit of work out in the world or barely anything. They're just caught up in their energy and the obsession and the vortex of Bali, and I'm healing and I'm learning and I'm exploring and I'm wondering. And it's like, cool, when are you going to fucking do something? Linda: Yeah. Katrina: So there's going to be that part of it, as well. Linda: Absolutely. Katrina: And Bali's a good example of that. But life is a good example of that, as well. And in this industry, for sure, you see so many people who are continually learning, continually healing, continually absorbing new content and regurgitating stuff on the internet, I guess, but when are you going to actually admit that you're scared to let what's inside of you out? And then just do it. Because that's what's going on. You're becoming addicted to the growth work as a way of escaping doing your own fucking work. Linda: Yes, and we're hiding under the spiritual masks, then we become, like we start to awaken our self worth and our beliefs are still at a level where we think that, for example, money is bad, or we can't do certain things because it's bad. And we actually have a lot of limiting believes in operating from that space, and then we just hide under this spiritual façade of spiritual masks where, oh no, no, but I'm spiritual and I'm a good person - Katrina: Bold as fuck. Linda: And we hide and we use that as an excuse to cover up and limiting where you're thinking or our low self worth and how we're operating. So we're using it as an excuse and I'm masking. Katrina: It's hiding. Linda: It is hiding. And at the end of the way, we can get so caught up in the whole, "Let's just do yoga and meditate every day and do nothing else." Katrina: Right. Linda: But at the end of the day, yes those are daily practises and very important, I believe in them very much. I'm a yoga teacher - Katrina: Yeah, journaling. Obviously I'm obsessed with journaling, I talk about it all the time, but one time I wrote a post, something like, "Put the fucking journal down. Stop fucking journaling. Go and do some work." Like, okay journaling is that work, I get that, obviously I teach that. But yeah, there's go to be those ... it's that dance, back and forth between, okay I'm going within and I'm accessing guidance and I'm learning and growing, or connecting with others who are helping me to grow. And then it's like, okay now I'm in creation mode, because as humans, we're all brought here to create. We're not brought here to consume. Consumption of content or growth or whatever - Linda: That's what we're taught. Katrina: But creation, I believe, is of higher value for the majority of us, or certainly, at least, for people in this community. We're creators. Linda: Yeah, yeah. Katrina: So are you creating or are you caught up in that continual, perpetual, wondering and seeking and never being ready to press play, and there's always something else to learn and nother fucking healing session to do, and another journaling session to do, and at some point it's like, put the journal down. Linda: Yeah, and you know, it can be uncomfortable to observe these things about ourselves and we don't always want to admit to that. But it's really powerful to just own that space and not just own your story, but own everything where you're at. First of the changes is awareness and then acceptance. Accept where you are, and go, "Okay, awesome, I acknowledge where I am now, and if I'm not aware, then how can I create change?" And like I just own up about the whole event thing. I'm like, "Oh my God, I just being going from event to event." Katrina: Well you said yes to all those events in alignment, though. Like you're the opposite of a person who doesn't do the work. But then, at a certain point, you noticed that it was too ... it was feeling like, this is not what I need. Linda: Yeah, yeah. Katrina: To be continual. But you weren't saying yes to those events in a place of trying to escape or avoid anything. It was the opposite of that. Linda: Yeah. Katrina: It was aligned to say yes, and then at a certain point it was like, "Oh, okay cool. I can learn what I need to learn here," which partly is that I don't need to go to events back to back to back to back. Linda: Oh my God. Katrina: In different cities continually. Linda: I'm having a month off, okay. A month off. Katrina: Yeah, but now, you're falling out of that and you're into more growth and time and taking actual time, it's a perfect balance, right? Linda: The integration - Katrina: You're allowing it all to just sink deeper into who you are. Linda: Yeah. The integration is a really interesting topic and I think it's a really important one to discuss because we can, for example, if you're using the event example again, we can continue to do courses, events, blah blah blah, and we take all the information in, or we do healing. But are we allowing ourselves to integrate? Are we actually applying also our learnings? We can get caught up in the personal development world, as well. We just continue to do all the courses, learn all the stuff, but are we applying it? Are we actually embodying - Katrina: Are you testing it out? Linda: ... the teachings? Are we embodying the wisdom of what we're actually being taught? Because knowledge is not power. It's what you do with the knowledge. Katrina: Yep, that applied knowledge is power. Linda: Yeah. Applied knowledge is power. Yeah, I definitely believe that, too. Katrina: Yeah. Linda: So it's powerful to observe where you are and just be up front and honest with yourself. Okay, cool, well I get to see from a different perspective. I'm going, "Okay, well I own that part of myself. And now I can create change." But if you're not accepting those parts of yourself, then you can't change it. It's like this with anything in life. If you're not accepting where you are and you're not accepting a previous experience, you can't shift from it. You have to accept it. Katrina: You have to continue to receive that same lesson until you learn it. Linda: Acceptance is part of the healing process in anything in life. Super powerful. I accept that you're here. Katrina: I'm just thinking about the Bali cleanse. Linda: On the audio you're like - Katrina: We're going to have a fabulous Bali cleanse when I come over again in a few weeks. Linda: And it is my birthday in a couple of weeks. So [crosstalk 00:59:16]. How am I going to make it? Oh yeah. 34. Age is only number [crosstalk 00:59:25]. Katrina: That's why I'm like, I think I know, but I'm not [crosstalk 00:59:27]. Linda: Yeah, it's like ... sometimes I'm friends with people, like close friends, and I'm like, "How old are you?" After couple years, I'm like, "How old are you, even?" Age is just not a thing that we know. Katrina: Not at all. Well I like that expression, I don't see faces, I see souls. It's the same with age, I think. It's a soul thing, not an age thing. Linda: Guilty on consume too much learning. Yeah, if we're not taking aligned action or applying the stuff, nothing's going to happen. We've got to step into the actual taking responsibility for our actions. Katrina: And pressing fucking play. Linda: And pressing fucking play. Katrina: Or pressing go live. This is an example, right? We're really just having a conversation here that we would have by ourselves anyhow, and we do all day, every day, and how hard is it to just go live and do it as content for your audience. It's not hard. But people make it really hard. And if you wanted to build brand for example, and then maybe you're like, "I've got all these powerful, cool stuff inside of me," and you talk about it with your friends or maybe some groups or your mentor or something like that, well, that's being stuck in the cycle of I'm learning and I'm growing and I talk about amazing, interesting things with people, but are you showing the world? Are you sharing what you're here to show the world? Linda: Yeah. Katrina: Marie says, "I'm 49 and [inaudible 01:00:51] I feel 35." Yeah, well, that's what's funny right. I would never think of you by being 49 based on what the conventional definition of 49 is. But I think, even my ... what's his name? The yoga teacher? In Bali? Linda: Yeah. Katrina: So he asked me once how old I was, because I mentioned having an eight year old, and he was like, "How old are you?" And I told him, and he was like, "Holy shit, I thought you were like 30, basically." And I've gone, "How old are you?" And he's 49, right? Linda: Ah is he 49? Wow. Katrina: I was like, wow. So then we both congratulated each other on how young we look, of course. And he was kind of talking about how people don't take care of themselves and stuff. But I said to him, "But how you look at 49 and how I look at 38 is what it's meant to be like. What if that is what 49 is suppose to look like? It's just that most people are all fucked up, basically." So it's not even that you look younger or I look younger, it's that we're the ones who have actually honoured our bodies and taken care of ourselves and this is what ... 38 is not suppose to look like what most, sorry. What most women look like at 38. It shouldn't look like. Or what most men look like at 50. It shouldn't look like that. It should be, if you took care of yourself. I don't know. That's my theory. Linda: Longevity. Katrina: My theories that when we meet people when we're shocked at their age, and that they look like, Marie's a great example of this. Marie's in my inner circle. And I've met her in person, obviously, as well. Not obvious, but I have. People like that, where you think, "How can you be that age? Doesn't make nay sense." My theory is that they look the correct way that you're suppose to look for that age, it's just that everybody else is ageing super fast because they didn't take care of themselves. Linda: Yeah, and I guess, yes the numbers are ticking in our linear timeline and we get "a year older ... pardon? Katrina: That we've been in time and space. Linda: Oh, we do. There's so many different timelines. The talk about time is just a whole other live feed again. But at the end of the day, we celebrate these birthdays, when really we're just one day older, every day. Katrina: Yeah. Linda: It's actually really interesting because we're not going to feel ... We're still this infinite soul, we're still this person that's inside of this physical body that we carry for life. We're not going to feel any different in 20 years time. We're still going to be this soul - Katrina: Everybody says that. Linda: We're still going to feel the physical restrictions because the body starts to shut down, so the only difference you're going to feel is your physical limitations that you'll eventually have because your body is getting older. Katrina: Yep. Linda: So that's why its so incredibly important to look after your physical being, health and wellness is not just - Katrina: It's not negotiable. Linda: Yeah. Yeah. And it flows into mind, body, and soul. Looking after every parts of self, and we can't continue to neglect that. Even as an 80 year old, we have child. Katrina: You look fabulous for 80. You're like, "Even as an 80 year old." You're looking fucking amazing. Linda: I met this man. I live steamed about it last night. I met this beautiful man - Katrina: The guy that you shared your food with? Linda: Yes! Yes. I want to share it again, can I? Can I? In a really, really short version. I was feeling very triggered yesterday. And I was sitting outside eating my little rice crackers and my avocado, and this elderly man, he was about 70. Katrina

Nailed it. Nailed it. Yo, hello people of the internet. Hang on. I thought I freaking nailed it. Where is my best siding at? Maybe that's it. Maybe that's it. Hang on. All right, that looks terrible. What if we sat on the grass? How do you feel about that? Where's my best siding? What if we put the light on? That did ... No, nothing at all. I already did this whole 360 before I pressed Go Live. That's super dark. That's a little bit lighter. That's a breezy. I really wanted to livestream of the beach. I feel certain that if I went and sit on the grass over there, I'm gonna look more fabulous. So we're gonna do that. Currently I'm sitting on top of the table. I'm on a pick-nick table. This is how I do. There seems to be some mushrooms growing over there. I'm not sure if they're edible or not. Side note. So I had my hair done. So it seems like it would be selfish to not livestream afterwards. Because I feel confident to show my face to the internet again. My hair was looking max level skanky. I didn't get it done for like seven weeks from travelling so much. Okay, we can sit on the ground. Well, now I'm more ... That's not working either, is it? This is a dilemma, you guys. Oh, was that the moment right there? I'm gonna tell you how to let it be so fucking easy, that you'll be wondering what the hell you are even thinking or doing with your life previously. Okay, there's literally nowhere where I have good lighting. I'm just sitting on the ... Oh, maybe that's it. I'm just on the grass doing circles on my bottom like a toddler wearing a diaper just spinning around. I'm spinning around. Get out of my way. I know you're feeling it 'cause you like it like this. Not like that. I'm breaking it down. That's it. Okay. It was a team effort. We did it together. Thank you, everybody. Now we just have one more small problem, which is that now we have a leaning tower of tripod situation. What do you think we need? Should we build a small canoe with some bark? I'm crafty as fuck, you guys. I didn't like the dark roots, It was looking brassy. What just happened? I just nailed the lighting, and now it's gone. Jana, you're the sweetest. And thank you for using the dancing emojis. Do you know that I had a small moment of panic when I went to Go Live just now. Because the dancing emojis which everybody knows is my favoritest emoji of all the emojis, they were not even in my ... You know your little panel that you've got of your most frequently used emojis? And so do you know what that means? That means I've been absolutely flaking out on proper emoji use. Maybe I'll go back to that table over there where I was before. I'm gonna tell you something that's embarrassing for me. And it's gonna make you shake your head at me in despair, although perhaps you'll understand. I was over at this table over here earlier, and I was ready to livestream. And I'd felt that I'd nailed the lighting situation. And then I saw that there was a chick sitting on the grass not far away, and I was like, "Well, then I'm gonna filter myself a bit, 'cause she's gonna hear me carrying on and waving my arms in the air like a crazy person." And I thought I'll end up being self-conscious and not livestream properly. So on the one hand you could say what a wuss I am. But on the other hand you could say that I'm certainly considerate of her, 'cause maybe she wanted to have a nice nap on the grass and not listen to me carrying on. Okay. This could be it. Now the thing is, I refuse to sit ... This is a pick-nick table. There's no fucking way I'm sitting on the chair when I could sit on the table. I just feel better when I'm above other people. You know, table sense, not necessarily anything else. Okay. Are we ready now? Do you think we can settle in? Got grass all over me now. Hope you guys appreciate it. So the beach is right there though, if you don't know the Gold Coast. If you do know the Gold Coast, you'll know where I am and you'll probably come to hang out with me. Don't, 'cause I'm gonna livestream and then go and do many important things. Tell me before you come down and hang out with me. Don't creep up on me. Anyway, the beach is like 20 metres or maybe 50 yards. I don't know what a yard. I'm just making up shit that sounds good. It's very fucking close. I wanted to go and sit on the beach for you all, because I thought it would be a beautiful background for you. And I'm super kinda that way. But it was so freaking windy that I probably would've been blown to Kansas if I would've sat there. And it would've ruined my hair. And you wouldn't have been able to hear me either. Okay. I don't know why I just got my laptop out like I was about to present a slideshow. But that's what I just did. I have just been at the hair salon for four hours, or however fucking long it takes to achieve this level of fabulousness, which is roughly 38 years and four hours. Because really the fabulousness comes from my energy. Mt energy. It just come on out of me. It just splays on out. I don't know about, "Splays." It sounds kinda gross. Anyway, I do nothing at all to make the money I make. I just open my mouth and things pop out of it. And I put no preparation time into anything even if I do an entire three day event, I just show up and see what pops out. But then on the other hand, i prepared for 38 fucking years to show up this badass. How long have you been preparing for? Just a reminder? You've got all that knowledge and power inside of you already. So what I did though whilst I was at the hair salon was firstly fucked around for a bit on Facebook and Instagram, because that's basically a rule of life, and I'd already done my journaling and my blogging and that sort of thing for the day. But then, then I did something very interesting, [Jamie Jod 00:06:15], very interesting. And everybody else too. I just point out Jamie, 'cause she's the most recent one to comment. Okay. You know when you take a drink of your water and you're like, "I think I've been reusing the same water bottle for too long," because I can smell something that smells like, I guess, my own saliva, is the truth of the matter. 'cause they get the [inaudible 00:06:39] bit. And then I have a $6000 dollar fucking water filter at home that is God's gift to the Earth apparently. And so I refill the bottles. Is my skin fabulous from all the water? Or is it from the yoga? Or is it from the journaling? Or is it because I chose to age backward? Who knows. But the water people will say for sure that it's the water. But it's getting that funny sort of smell. I think we're gonna have to throw it out after this. Somebody remind me. Keep accountable, 'cause it's quite disgusting otherwise. I just realised I made my life so fucking easy that it's actually a little bit scary. It is nasty. Yeah. How embarrassing. I shouldn't admit this stuff on the internet. I should maintain a professional visage at all times. I'm actually a little bit ... I feel destabilised by how easy I just made my life. I feel a little worried. I feel like a kite that's been snapped free in the breeze. And I haven't even lived into what I just did yet. But I thought I should share it with. I can't stop touching my hair, because it's so silky. Look how silky it is. If you were here, you would be stroking it like a kitten, depending on who you are might be nice for everybody. And yes, I will tell you about the easy thing. I feel like I could build it up into quite a story, but there's nothing come out of me to do that. So I might just get to the point and tell you, and then we'll see what else happens after that. So I keep lists, and I feel embarrassed to admit it. I'm Katrina Ruth and I have lists of things that I never action. I have always been a list making type of person since I was a kid. I would ... This is embarrassing. I would come home from school when I was about seven or eight years old, and I would make a list of everything that I had to do that afternoon after school, like whatever homework, maybe a chore or something that my mum had given me. And then I would even put on the list kind of like fun or creative things that I wanted to do just for myself. I always had a side hustle. I mean as a child, you should always have a side hustle. So my side hustle as a child typically selling shit to people. I used to take all my broken old toys and also just random bits of half eaten candy, I'm not even kidding, that I would smuggle away from parties or something. And I would take them to school and I would sell them on the school yard. And then I got shut down. The store of Katrina Ruth got shut down. It was a black market operation from the get-go. And the principle of the school shut me down. And I'm pretty sure I got reported to my mother. And yes, that was the end of that until I did it again and then got caught again. And that cycle basically perpetuated itself until like I say, I stopped going to school. Interestingly though, I was such a good girl. I was such a rule follower. I really was. Except for when it didn't suit me. Which is roughly how I play life these days. I'm actually the most obedient civilised, well-conditioned member of society that you could ever care to encounter, except for when it doesn't suit me. And then I do what I fucking want. But from the outside looking in, if you were to encounter me in the normal day-to-day operations of your life, you would think, "What a well-behaved lady about town." I'm sure you would. You would probably label me as gentile. Particularly if I had long sleeves on and you couldn't see. I guess the tattoos add a level of rebelliousness. But I tend to think ... I tend to feel like nobody can notice the tattoos anyway, 'cause to me they look very normal. I don't feel like it at all stands out. So probably nobody's even aware of it. I'm very proper is what I'm trying to say, except for when it's not proper to be proper, and then I'm supremely improper. But nobody notices, because I've always been exceptionally good at selling to people. And one of the things that maybe you didn't realise about being a fantastic sales person is that you can convince people that you're anything, because you almost believe it yourself. Or you do believe it yourself. You become the thing. So people believe that I'm an upstanding, well-about town gentile type of a lady. I am upstanding. I [inaudible 00:10:49]. And I'm upstanding as far as the morals and laws of society anyhow, just not I guess other areas. But I've always been very good at ... I don't know. I don't do it on purpose. I'm not trying to manipulate or trick people. But I'm thinking back to when my teachers always thought I was just the best most obedient, subservient, good student. Because I kinda was. And I always got the top available mark on everything academically, because manifestation. I never studied for it. I just ... Well, I have like a really high IQ. I do, it's true. But it runs in my family. And it's also just how it was in my family. So my parents were just like, "Well, of course you'll be the top of the class. That's just how it is as. It's who we are." So then as a kid, you're kinda like, "Oh, okay." And you just expect to get the top grades, and so then you do. And so then because you kind of on the surface of it, you appear to be this very subservient, well-behaved child about town. I supposed I wasn't a lady about town back then. Then what happens is, you build up a perception of yourself. You build up a reputation. I built my reputation from an early age of being a good girl, a square. And I am a good girl. I'm not trying to say I'm not. I'm very good when it suits me. So basically, I'm getting there. And I'm gonna tell you about the easy thing, and I'm gonna. I thought I was gonna spit it out in tow minutes, but it's turned into a fabulous story, so I'm happy about that. Okay, send more of the cat stickers. If you see where on the right-hand side of your screen is the little emojis. And then just to the inside left of your little emojis, you've got some cat stickers. You can hit that sticker button, and you can choose some cool shit to send at me that's, "1% [inaudible 00:12:36]. She'll press play. Sure it's about me." It really smells gross, but I'm very thirsty. There it is. There's the Press Play signs. They're so cool, aren't they? Where's my banner by the way? I had the freaking Katrina Ruth Show banner on this, and now it's disappeared I just noticed. Whatever. Yeah, so you build up a reputation. And I feel like once people see you as a certain ... Once people have labelled you, and they see you as a certain type of a thing, then it's maybe difficult, or it could be potentially difficult ... Oh, it is there, is it? The banner? Cool. Thanks [Brittany 00:13:11]. It's potentially difficult ... You'll only get the emojis if you're on your cellphone. Potentially difficult to change that. I guess you would have to consciously do that. But the point is, even though I broke min rules from an early age at school, such as continually selling on the school yard, I did get told off and shut down for it. But then I would always get away with it again. Because overall the way that I was categorised as far as the academic people were concerned was, "Good girl," at school, "Square." And then even in later years since schooling, like my final two years of school. And I just rocked out all my grades and all my classes. And I came like top three point something percent in the country. But I barely went to class at all, and I'd continually broke all the rules. But it was like nobody noticed. It was like they were all blind to it, because I had so effectively created my persona. All right? So I don't know what you wanna take from that. But be a badass and people will think you're a badass, because you then created yourself into a badass. But are you really a badass or not? Who really knows. And it doesn't matter. It's all perception. So that was one of the side hustles as an eight year old. And then my other side hustle was, I had membership clubs, which I would charge people $5 to join my member. It was a one-time fee. It was the best fucking deal offer ever. There was no repeating monthly fee, I should've thought about. It was very non-entrepreneurial of me to only charge a one-time fee of $5 I suppose. But I guess nobody else was selling memberships at that age. And people couldn't just get the $5 from their parents though. They had to present to me a list of how they'd earned the $5 by doing chores. The rules were ... I mean, I wouldn't follow the rules myself. But I will make them up for other people no problem. The rules were, you could do one task that gave you a full dollar, like washing a car. You were allowed to get a dollar for washing a whole car. But you couldn't go around washing five cars. You had to prove your metal. So one task I would allow them to do where they got a dollar. And then the rest had to be 10 and 20 cent tasks such as unstacking the dishwasher, or whatever it was. And then I would peruse the list. And basically decide if this person had the work ethic to be in my club. It's pretty much exactly how I take inner-circle subscriptions to this day. All right. I just want to know if people have different moral and ethical compass that I have around the hustle. So that's how I made my money. That was my side hustle. Well, that was several of them. I was also selling my own drawings door-to-door, and daffodils, and oranges and lemons. But that was since I was three years old. And then by the time I was 11, I was an Avon lady and I was making a $1000 a week. When it's in the blood, it's in the blood. But my point is that I would come home from school and I would make a list of all the things that I had to do that afternoon that I wanted to do and chose to do for my hustle as well as my homework, et cetera. But I would make the list and I would include like 20 things on the list that I'd already done. I would just make shit up and put on it on the list and cross it off straight away. And I still do that. I still make lists, and I'll add like a whole bunch of random shit onto the list like, "Sit in park and do a livestream." I'm like, "Oh, well I did that already. Tick." And I'll just add it on for the fun of it. But then the things that I put on the lists that I haven't already done ... Who does this? Who makes lists at all? Am I the only person in this sad world ... No. Am I the only sad person in this amazing world who's still addicted to making lists? Because for me, the things that I put on the list that have not already been done, it's taken me many years to finally acknowledge this. Like 30 fucking years plus. I never do them. I just never do them. [Rache 00:16:45], would you do the things on your lists though? I repeatedly make lists. I like to organise my lists. I'm a fantastic list organiser. I will write and rewrite the thing till kingdom come. And I will merrily continue on my life path without referring back to the list, or doing a single item from the list, except for when I refer back to the list in order to reorganise the list. And then I feel really good about myself, 'cause for that one moment in time I'm like, "Maybe I am an organised person who plans things." I don't know why I even wanna be. I don't actually even wanna be an organised person who plans things. I am full conscious of the fact that I built a multi million dollar empire online by being chaotic as fuck, and surrendering to that. So why would I wanna be organised? But I think it's like an emotional detoxification when I write the list. Okay, what's that person doing behind me? Julian says, "Just so you know, when in horizontal view, the banner is completely covered by the comment box." Is it bottom-right? We're trying to figure out where we wanted this banner to be. We're just moving the banner all around the screen from every livestream to livestream. So thank you for that, and I'll check it out later. Well, there's my confession for you. And then here's the problem though, like on the one hand I'm like, well it's good to get it out of head so I'm not carrying it around in my head, so I write, get that shit down like an emotional detoxification like I said. But then on the other hand, I've got to admit to you, it feels like it's hanging over me a little bit, right? It feels like I'm never fully maybe relaxed into my flow. Well, that's not true. When I'm in Super Flow, I couldn't give a fuck whether the world is turning or not. I'm just creating content and doing stuff. Or even like when I'm working out, or when I'm hanging out with my badass clients or friends, I'm not aware or conscious of anything. But it's more so on a day like today, where I'm in the hair salon for four hours. And like hello, I don't think I need to say this, but clearly I'm not sitting in the hair salon reading fucking magazines. Clearly I'm sitting there with my laptop like a normal human person making money. Hello to everybody who I was messaging and going back forth with about Rich Hot Empire over the last few hours. [Mim 00:18:50], if you're watching, you can pop that Rich Hot Empire comment in right now. Rich Hot Empire, six weeks 101 with me started yesterday. Our live call is tonight my time. You can still join. It's the final chance to work with me in Rich Hot Empire until well until the end of this year. Six weeks unlimited one-on-one with me. After this closes in the next few days, then the only way to work with me one-on-one will be in the inner-circle. So Rich Hot Empire is fucking amazing. The money results, the alignment results, the dream, life and business creation results that my clients consistently get with this programme every time I run it are beyond. Check out what [00:19:25] just put in the pinned comment. I don't know exactly what it says, but it will say something like, "Rich Hot Empire. Work with me for six weeks one-on-one so we can build your soulmate [inaudible 00:19:33]. Create your low right through to high-end empire to build your multi seven figure and beyond online business doing what you love, just like I've done, just like all my clients do." And you literally get unlimited access to me when you're working with me at the private client level. So message me now on my personal Katrina Ruth page if you wanna get in before the doors close. Like I said, final chance to work with me in this sort of short-term intensive, rapid result way. After this closes, it's only gonna be inner-circle, which is a $72,000 investment currently. And at some stage of course I'll do something shorter again, but no current plans to. I'm shutting it down after this and focusing on existing clients and inner-circle growth as well. So you can message me about that after this, 'cause I wanna get back to this conversation and talk about the list thing, and how I just did like a big release of everything. And who that's freed me up creatively to make a fuck-load more money and content. So anyway, yeah, on a day like today I'm at the hairdresser and I'm like ... I kind of already did ... I'm very good at ignoring lists, which is an important trait to cultivate in yourself, by the way. Because I consistently ignore all my tasks and the things that I think I should be doing, or have previously told myself I should be doing. Because I consistently ignore shit that I put on to list, I have instead created literally thousands of pieces of content on the internet, launched over 300 products and programmes online. I drafted in badass high-level [inaudible 00:20:56] client. I just posted today's testimonial from a Rich Hot Empire client, Jessica who did the January run of Rich Hot Empire, did 30K in January, 43K in February, 45 in March, and has just hit her first $100,000 mark in April. That's the sort of results clients are getting from their Rich Hot Empire. And of course, she's gone into the inner-circle because of that after Rich Hot Empire. So anyway, those sort of clients though, they come into my life and become part of the norm for me, in large part because I've spent the past decade plus ignoring shit that I put on the list, and instead showing up for my content, showing up for my purpose work, showing up for my own inner-work, showing for my own flow, taking care of myself, whatever I need to do to be in that super flow state. And to unleash my message and to speak into your soul. That is my number task and job every single day is to be in my soul, to be in my super flow, and to let what's inside of me out for you, right? Not to freaking work my way through a list. So just a little reminder there, if you feel like undisciplined, or you're undisciplined, or disorganised, or you're not getting your shit done. Just step back for a moment and be like, "Okay, but what are the big things that are gonna move the needle?" Because I know for me and for my clients it's typically inner-work, messaging, sales activity and your own self-care and getting yourself into flow. If you did those four things every day and nothing else, you're gonna build a freaking empire. That's how I do it, that's how my clients do it. Yet still, I've had all this shit on the list. And like well, some of it might be to do with P.S. stuff, getting my name out there in a bigger way, random things that maybe I want to improve on my social media, or on my website, different cool ideas that I have to leverage existing platforms. Sometimes when clients tell me awesome results, I just kind of note it down on the list like a little reminder for later, "Oh, we should do a little testimonial piece about that," and then it just goes on the list. Or like personal errands or whatever. But I have probably 50 random things there all together. And I just consistently don't fucking do them, because I'm just not a person that works by sitting down and working my way through a checklist. It's not who I desire to be. And fundamentally, I don't believe that it's how it needs to be. However for whatever reason, I'd still been telling myself this story that if I don't write this stuff down and kinda keep it somewhere, then I'm gonna forget important things, and it's kind of like a fear mentality, right? Kind of telling myself that I might miss out on something that's gonna make a difference in my business or life. So today I just thought, "Fuck this shit." I was thinking about the fact ... Gross water. Gross water break. I was thinking about the fact that there's like these two or three things creatively that I've consistently not been quite getting around to doing. Like I would do them, but I'm inconsistent with it. I'm motherfucking consistent with the things that I just said, right? Like I do my daily Ass-Kickery blog, 365 days a year. Zero exceptions. I've done it for decades. I typically write two or three blogs a day. Sometimes I post them all, sometimes not. I do my sales activity every day, I do my inner-work every day, I do my fitness and self-care every day. It's all just so automated. Where I wanna step up further is around creating videos as opposed to Facebook Live. Specific short videos created into kind of like ... I don't know, really engaging, either entertaining or inspiring pieces that could be shared and re-shared and that sort of thing for YouTube and Facebook. That's one of my projects that I really give more time and attention to. And then the other one is publishing more books. I'm already writing all the content for the books, but it's kind of just being collected in my Dropbox, just endless reams of articles, poems, mantras, affirmation, stuff that's not being collated. And so I noticed today I was like, it feels like ... And tell me if you've ever felt this way. It feels like I can't get to that shit yet, because I've got all this stuff hanging over me that I've been telling myself I need to do. Even though fundamentally, I do not believe that success comes from a list. And I logically actually legitimately know that I don't need to do it. But yet, because I've been carrying it around so to speak. Like lugging it around on a list, it's kinda weighing me down, or detracting from me energetically. And finally today, and I must admit I've done this before, and I've had the list then creep up again. It's kind of like when you do a Spring cleaning at home or ... Or I wouldn't do that. I'd pay somebody to do it. But when you do something like that, and then the clutter kinda creeps up again. But today I was just like, "Fuck this shit. I'm getting rid of all of that." And I spent probably 90 minutes, and I worked my way through every single item on the list, and either sent it straight off to a team member. So [00:25:18], you now understand why you're getting gajillions of small emails from me today with random comments and little memories. And like, "You should do this." And, "There's this happening. Let's do this." So I either like sent it off to team members. Or for things that weren't really ... Like for that, that were more to do with me. Or that just felt like, "Uh, it's not actually relevant right now." I popped it into my Google Calendar as a reminder, like decide when that would get to be action, put it into my Google Calendar as a reminder. So that that way it will send me an email notification on the day that I chose for it to do that. And got down to nothing. I've got my list down to absolutely deleted. Completely stripped off the list. And then I sat there, and this was just now. I currently just come out of the hair salon before I started this. Hair salon's right there. Beach there. Hair salon there. My house over there. Now you're fully orientated. So I jumped out of the salon, drove down here we are. And so that was only less than an hour ago. But I just sat there for a moment before I finished up and paid, and left. And I was like, "Huh, interesting." What I noticed is there's no more excuses left for why I don't have time to make these cool videos I wanna make, or to bring my books to life in a bigger way. Well actually, the book thing's been fully actioned now, because part of what I did just now as go back and forth with Cat Ninja Mim, who's in charge of collating, putting all my written content together into some sort of sequential order for my different poetry volumes, affirmation books, and my actual real books and that sort of thing. So fully passed over all my thoughts and ideas to her that I had sort of had on a list still, 'cause I was like, "Oh, I'll talk to Mim about this once we get past the initial phase that we're working on." I was like, "No, I'll just send it all through to her." So that's done. The book side of it's done. The only thing I still need right now to continue my book business the way I wanted to is I only gotta find a new cover designer, 'cause my cover designer had a change of freaking purpose and stopped designing books covers, which sucked 'cause he's amazing. But good for him in his purpose work. And that's it. And so it was this feeling of, "Oh shit, I just made it so easy." Like I literally stripped my whole list down to nothing, meaning that now as of this moment right here, there is nothing I have to do. I have nothing on my life list. Yes, I have upcoming things in my calendar, like reminders or well, appointments. I have very minimal appointments in my life in general. But I have upcoming reminders, like I know I popped in the calendar for later this week, "Book in for a dental checkup." That sort of shit. And a few little reminders for things to do with stuff I do wanna change in my business. But there's nothing that's a list. There's nothing that's like, when I go into my day ... When I continue on with my day now or go into my day tomorrow, you know that feeling that you carry around, fears of like, "Fuck, I've got all this shit that I've gotta do." And then I'm like, "Done," or then I can relax, or then I can be fully present. Or then I can have time for my purpose work. There's nothing there. It's just me and the freaking air around me, right? Now I'm gonna give myself massive credit here to say, like I did say before that I've been fucking amazing at consistently creating my purpose work into the world day in and day out for many years now. Even while having an idea in my head that there's other things that I've gotta do. I've been really good at putting first thing first. It's probably one of the best life lessons I ever received. And if you haven't kind of figured that life less out, figure it out right here right now. I learned it from Stephen Covey. I think learned it even earlier than that. But I religiously read Seven Habits of Highly Effective People over and over again when I was about 22. I think I read it for the first time when I was like 12. So 26 years ago. But I remember religiously reading his book Seven Habits, as well as his other book, First thing's First when I was 22. I was supposed to ... This is another example. I was supposed to be doing fitness management, but I hacked the job and figured out how to do the 38 hour job in like three hours a week. And since then I was reading and journaling. Much like back in the school days with getting the top grades. And I really just implemented that, and I have ever since. I've been really good at first thing's first. And I just don't react. I don't react to other people, even clients and friends. I don't react to a list. I don't react to anything until I do my sole work in the morning, I do my journaling work, I do my blog, I do whatever writing's coming through me. Even now, right? There's other things potentially I could be doing rather than this livestream. Well not really, since I just deleted them all. But there's a few little things that I know that I will do today. But I'm doing the livestream first, because that's content, right? So that's been probably one of my most effective success habits that I really suggest you fucking think about. Like if you do one thing, then make it that you learn to freaking prioritise and do first thing's first in your business and in your life. Because the big rocks, if you leave them till the end of the day, there's no space for them. You filled your whole life up with little rocks and pebbles and things that are relatively meaningless, and just responding to other people. And then ultimately your life gets cratered from that. Whereas when you do first thing's first and you go, "Okay, what is like the one big thing in my business where if I did it every day, I would create the business that I dream of even if I just did that one thing and nothing else?" Then you make that your first thing, your highest priority. And then, "What is the next thing after that, and what is the one big thing in my fitness, or the one big thing as a mother, or the one bug thing for my own sanity?" Or whatever it might be, right? That has seriously been ... Like I'm so grateful for wherever that knowledge and awareness first came from, whether it was through Stephen Covey or even before that through my dad, who I first got those books from, or whatever different sources. But I know for sure that I would not have the business that I have, the multi seven figure online empire. Nevermind like the term and the lifestyle freedom, and the incredible way that I get to live. But also my physical results in my health and my body. And even how much time I get to spend with my friends and my children, and that sort of thing. All of that really stems from the fact that I freaking learnt to put first thing's first. And it is a discipline, because I'm the same as anyone. I wake up in the morning and I'm like, "Maybe I'll just quickly check my messages." No. I just don't. I just don't fucking allow myself to. Sometimes I break the rule for sure. But extraordinarily rarely. I would break that rule literally 1% of the time. And 99% of the time I'm laser focused. The world does not get a piece of me until my soul got everything that it needs, right? Think about that. Because I'm pretty certain that most people are the other way around. 99% of the time, the world gets all of them, and nothing's left for their soul. And then you think, "Oh, I'll do it later in the day." No, you fucking won't. You burn out, and you're also energetically depleted from giving your life for the wrong thing. How do we get on to this little piece of sermonising? Let me come back to it. Okay, okay, okay. So I was like, giving myself props, right? Because yeah, I just cleared my list. And I'm like, "Okay, I've got nothing to do. I've got no more excuses." I just made my life so easy there's literally nothing on my list. There's nothing there at all. "Oh my God, what do I do?" Well, all right, I was already putting first thing's first. But what I would love to do, and what I have now chosen to do, and what I just went through today was making space to do that. What my choice is, is to now add to the foundation that I've already created of putting first thing's first. Now I love the concept of there's never anything you need to do in order to manifest anything you desire and have it all. There's nothing you ever need to do, but there's always ... Always magic. There is always magic. There's always action to take. It's one of my favourite philosophies and concepts. And what it means though is to not have a freaking list or a plan, right? But yet you're always taking action. So I have nothing on my list. Like I just said, I have nothing I need to do at all in any area of my life. I'm completely free as a bird. However, do you think that means I'm gonna be sitting around twiddling my thumbs, and sunning myself on the grass? Well, maybe if I could turn it into content. And maybe sometimes anyway, for sure. But what I'm going to be doing is being the person who automatically lives a certain way and creates certain results into their business and life. And currently for years now, the vast majority of how my time is spent, is me just being me. So I say frequently, I ... Like I'll often say to a client or a friend, "Oh my God, I did nothing today. I had the laziest day ever. I did nothing." And clients say this to me as well. And then we always laugh, 'cause I'm like ... When a client will say this to me ... Like actually my friend Linda who's staying with me at the moment. So hopefully we'll do a livestream together in the next day or two. She said this to me the other day, she's like, "Oh my God, I had the laziest day ever. I did noting." She's like, "I just wrote a blog, and then this, and then this, and then this, and then ... " And I was like, "So let's just clarify, you did nothing. You wrote a blog post of 1500 words. That'd take most people a month, if not a lifetime firstly. You did a great workout. You did a live training with client. So you met a client for the first time in-person who's like a private client, or whatever. And created content together, and that turned into sales action at the end of the livestream, and in the blog post. And then whatever other different things as well." Like literally her doing nothing was more than most people would do in a week or even a month, and that's for real. And so whenever I say, "Oh my God, I did nothing. I had the lazies day ever," then when I actually reverse-engineer it, I'm like, "Well, technically not nothing, because studied and did like ... Study and meditation." In the morning I just do it automatically every morning. To me that's like ... I'm being a little tongue-in-cheek to say this, but not really. But to me doing my morning spiritual study is the same as brushing my teeth or putting my clothes on. You wouldn't go around being like, "I put my clothes on today, and I brushed my teeth." It's not really something that needs to be talked about. I know that it's not that. But that's how it feels to me, and this is the big point that I'm trying to make. I'm like, "Well, of course I did my study in the morning." I always read something that inspires and uplifts me, and feeds my soul in the morning. It's hardly something to report home about. But at the same time, it very much impacts who I am as a person. I'm continually growing, right? Of course I did my morning journaling and my mindset work, and my inner-work, 'cause I just always do. I don't think about, "Am I gonna do it again?" It just kinda happens. So well, I didn't feel like I did anything. And then well, of course I wrote a freaking blog and a powerful message to the world after I did my journaling, 'cause that's a natural thing, right? After you do journaling, don't you wanna tell the world the things that have bubbled up inside of you? Isn't it logical that you wanna tell people? Even if you weren't publishing it on the internet, if you're reading or learning something inspiring, or having like an, "Ah-ha," moment in your life, don't you then as a normal human person, legitimately, not being a smartass now, you go and tell someone, right? Just look at anyone who's ever happened upon the latest fad diet. Is it or is it not true that they're sermonising about it to everybody that they encounter, because they're so passionate about it and they're excited about it. Well, that's all I'm doing when I let my blog come out at the end of my journaling, so that's not doing anything. Okay, but because I write like a 1500 to 2000 plus word daily Ass-Kickery blog post, every fucking day for years now, that's really like the cornerstone of how I've built this empire. The content, why do people wanna [mentiod 00:36:37] me? Because of what I've said, because of my words. Maybe livestreams is about also. But blog posts, huge part of it, right? To me the ... That's not doing anything. That's not like work, right? I don't even feel like I do anything if I write a freaking blog post. That's for my own soul and my own sanity. I get super antsy and don't feel connected to my self if I haven't unleashed my message, so I love to do that. And on the days when it doesn't happen for whatever reason, I feel that kind of restlessness. Like I just gotta get away from the world for 20 minutes and just be here and create something for my soul. And sure yeah, I'll chuck it on Facebook. And then yeah, you know what? People pay me tens of thousands of fucking dollars collectively or individually as a result of that. Sales activity, it's like an automatic thing that happens. Of course if I write a blog I'm gonna put a call to action at the end of a blog. I'm not stupid, right? So I don't feel like I did anything though. I just chucked a little P.S. on the end of a blog post like, "Hey, buy my thing." And then I could keep going all day, right? This doesn't feel like I'm doing work. I'm like, "What else would I wanna do after sitting in a hair salon for four hours, looking largely as spreadsheets," 'cause I was doing all my ... Counting all my monies, which I do calculate my net worth and check in on my payments. And make sure that I know which payments are coming up, and manifest more money. I did all that. And then I was deleting things, slashing them left, right and centre off my list and sending them off to other people. That was fun. And now I'm like, "Well, of course I wanna come and talk about it. What else would I do?" That's not work, right? But yet, I'm creating content that you now get stripped off Facebook, put onto YouTube. I already did a sales call to action about Rich Hot Empire. Make sure you read that pinned comment. Literally final few days to work with me one-on-one at this amazing price point. Six intensive weeks unlimited access to me. And then it's closing, and then it's inner-circle only for one-on-one work for the foreseeable, right? So okay, sounds like too many [inaudible 00:38:26]. That's not a big deal. And you see my point. So on the days when I do nothing, I could add up all the different things I've done, and there's a million other things I've done today that I haven't even listed. But all of it felt so just like ... Well, of course I respond to people's messages. I haven't checked in on my clients yet, but I'll do that. That probably is the next thing I'll do just while I'm going on a walk on the beach or something, I'll probably listen to [voxxes 00:38:46] from my high-level clients. And that's me mentoring ... Well, that's one aspect of my mentoring of my high-level clients is ... Well, what else would I wanna do? I mean, I'm there. Sometimes I like to listen to music while I walk or drive. But pretty freaking cool to get to listen to my high-level clients checking in, asking me stuff, or sharing their massive wins. So if we bring it back to the point that I'm trying to make here for you, my point that I'm sure you can feel this and see it already is, let it be easy by making it into part of who you are. Any thing that is in your life that feels disconnected from who you are, just think about this right now. Anything that feels like, "This is something I've gotta do that kind of goes against my nature in some way, or I don't really wanna do." Or, "It feels like it's separate from me, or outside of me." Or it's more like a chore. It's kinda like, "Yeah okay, I gotta go do such and such thing," right? Those are the things to seriously consider deleting, delegating, or just freaking get it done really quickly. You know that old saying, "Delete, delegate or do." Or just realise that maybe actually, this is a big thing I've learned over the years, that if you just did the big rock stuff, like the messaging, the showing up, the letting people see and hear you, connecting and communicating, then all these other freaking shit that you think you need to do to make money, wouldn't even be necessary. Because you could do a 100 things on a list of internet market to-do's, but if you're not doing this in some way, shape, or form, communicating, connecting, sharing message. None of that shit's gonna fucking matter. Nobody cares if you have a perfect funnel and website if they don't know you. So you're over here like, "I gotta do this, and this, and this. And then the world will see me as a very important person." No, they're gonna see straight through that. They're gonna see smoke and mirrors, and no substance. And they're not gonna feel your soul. If you want people to follow and buy from you, you need to reach in and grab them by the soul. And by the way, that is not gonna happen if you're not connected to your own soul. It's not possible. So the more that you get rid of anything that takes you away from soul and super flow, and just focus on what your soul needs, what you desire. And focus on integrating anything that would be a great habit into being part of who you are, the more it becomes so easy. It becomes like money tap that you can't turn off. I know that's a controversial statement that might trigger or annoy some people, but that is how I feel about how I make money. I'm like, every day I get a little report from one of my assistants, Kelly that says I pulled this much ... She transfers the money out of PayPal every day and puts it into my bank account. So she'll go, I pulled out whatever it was. I think yesterday, $20,700 out of PayPal. And she just tells me the number. And that's every fucking day, right? And I'm like, "Cool." Like, "Awesome. Of course. I expect that." Or whatever. I'm appreciative and grateful. But I'm not like, "Oh, I don't really know where it came from. I guess I could technically figure it out and break it down." But my actions have got nothing to do with that. That's how I see it. The money comes in because I turned on a freaking money tap by living life purposely. And by claiming and stating, and my journaling, and in my mind and my heart, and my soul what it is I wanna receive. And just choosing to believe that that's how it gets to be. What I'm doing, I'm never doing shit with the intention like, "If I do this, then I make that money." No way. No way. That's totally separate. I'm only doing what my soul grants be to do, which is the job of being myself. So when I go through my list of shit that I got rid of, if there was anything on there which was there literally like two things, which is the two things that I said earlier, like the videos and the books, that I want that stuff to be a day-in, day-out habit. Because I know that when it becomes a small thing that gets attended to every day for a small period of time, that's how you build epic fucking results. That's how I have my fitness results, that's how I have my business results. Results in all areas. Just a very small amount of time each day for all these different sections. And it's all effortless, and I feel like I do nothing, because I've made it part of who I am. So for those things that I'm like, "Okay, these are things I wanna implement into my routine and into being part of who I am." Those are the only things that I will give concerted daily attention to now. All the rest of it is like well, it doesn't actually matter. Here I have some cool ideas on that list of things that could improve my social media presence in different way. So I just sent if off to my team and they can do whatever with it. But I will focus only on, and have focused only on up until point to get these results, becoming more of who I'm meant to be, right? And making it so easy by just making it into who I am. So I feel that I do nothing, and yet I create a very impressive ... What's the word? Prolific amount of content each day. I probably be content creator. And I'm continually immersing myself in growth work and mindset work, which then feeds on into what I'm creating and how I get to make the money I make, I guess. 'Cause people wanna learn from me. And it all feels so effortless, because I just made it who I am, right? So literally my laziest day where I'm like, "I honestly did nothing," is still mad insane awesome mindset work, even if I wasn't journaling, it's still going through my mind all the time. Or it's just how I converse with my friends and people that I care about in my life and my clients, plus content creation in some form 'cause it just kinda bubbles out because of all that I'm putting in. Plus sales activities, just is automatic, right? So my suggestion to you is, I'm not here obviously to go on and on about how awesome my habits are, and yay for me. But my suggestion to you is, what do you need to make into part of who you are? Like if you think even now about what is an area of your life where you already have epic results, whether it's something in your business, or your health and fitness, or potentially it could be even how you keep an amazing beautiful home or something like that, whatever it is or whatever comes to mind for you, isn't it true that you just made it a habit? It's just part of who you are. Like you automatically attend to that area of your life, and you do it even without thinking, right? There's some ... I know for sure there's some people that really struggle to cook and prepare healthy food. It feels like a chore, and then I don't really wanna do it. Well, when I grew, my mum would automatically prepare a home made from scratch healthy dinner every single night. I don't know if she loved doing it or not. I think sometimes yes, sometimes no, right? But either way, it was definitely habitual. Like it just fucking happened every day. It wasn't like, "How do you do this?" It was a habitual thing. Same as the way she kept house and other ... Even same as the way she parented us as far as always coming up with cool creative games. We always did cool creative games after school. So it was just like a habit. For me, the cooking thing is semi-habitual. I definitely always wanna eat a healthy great meal. But I won't necessarily cook it every time. I'll go out and get it sometimes. "What is better to do? 10 Day Wake Up or Die? Change Your Mindset, Change Your Life?" Probably Change Your Mindset, Change Your Life is deeper and more powerful. But honestly, they're both fucking amazing programmes. Really, those are two of the best mindset programmes I've ever created. The 10 Day Wake Up or Die audio goal setting course is just in your face and it gets you straight to the point. And Change Your Mindset, Change Your Life I created straight after that. It was kind of a lead on. They really work together. So yeah, you've already done this in different areas of your life. Right? You've already created habits, you've already become the person who automatically does whatever it is. And guaranteed, that's the stuff where other people look at you and they're like, "How do you get such great results in that?" And they maybe think that it takes you a lot of effort, or a lot of planning, or a lot of energy. And you're like, "I don't do anything. What do you mean? Like it's easy." That's how I feel about fitness, it's how I feel about blogging and messaging and creating content for my business. It's how I feel about selling. It's how I feel about inner-work. It's how I feel about various other things also. And I know that for me to go to my next level, and to become the next version of the content creator that I wanna be, and do the different styles of content that I haven't quite stepped into yet, it's the same fucking thing. It's not set aside a weekend to do it all in a weekend. It's not, plan out the different elements and bits and pieces of it on a list. It's literally just make it part of who I am. Make it something that gets a little bit of attention every day. And I'm talking like 20 to 25 minutes. All those things that I just listed, usually like 25 minutes. Sometimes a bit more, sometimes less. But none of those different building blocks of my success, none of them are taking me hours a day or even a full hour. I'm doing like 15 to 20 minutes of mindset work in the morning, and then it feeds into the rest of my day. I mean, every fucking conversation I have is mindset work at this point as well. I do usually probably 30 to 40 minutes workout, but it's not uncommon for me to do a 20 or 25 minute workout. I do 20 to 25 minutes writing my blog post each day. And collectively if you added it all up to the days, probably 20 to 25 minutes of sales activity. So we are not talking something that's out of reach for any person here. We're just talking having some Goddamn consistency, and creating a habit out of the things that are gonna change your business and your life. All right. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. So read the comment, pinned comment. Rich Hot Empire. Six weeks one-on-one with me. Build your soulmate culture. Create your own low right through to high-end empire top multi seven figure and beyond, doing what you love, doing your purpose work in the world with me as mentor, one-on-one. It's a six week structure programme with content that you get to keep access of, for life. I show you everything behind the scenes of how we do all the different elements of strategy and putting things together, and launching, and selling, and coming up with your ideas, clarifying your message. Anything you could imagine where you're like, "But I'm not sure about my message yet," or, "I don't know what I'm gonna sell yet." Or, "What about high-ticket, how do you sell that?" Like everything. I teach you everything in there. We also do live hot seat mastermind calls each week with our other private clients. And it's one-on-one you and me as well. So we'd be talking pretty much daily through my client private channel. So I do audios and messages with my clients day to day. As well as obviously one-on-one calls. There's a whole bunch other stuff I can tell you about Rich Hot Empire, the very best thing to do if it's speaking to you, is message me over on my Katrina Ruth personal page. I'll give you a fully overview, as well as a couple of videos that you can watch that explain more about this. It gets amazing results. I get amazing results from my clients doing this work. And it's for clients at all stages. I've had clients who are typically in each Rich Hot Empire intake. There's like 30 to 40% of people are total startup. And then there's people who are already making as much as 30, 40, 50K. Or I have even had a couple clients do Rich Hot Empire who are already doing over a million dollars when they came through. So it's not about where you're at now. Depending on where you're at now, you may need more or less support on different areas. There might be things where you need more support and hand-holding around structural stuff and strategy stuff. You will get that, not just from me, but from my team as well. But what does join all my clients together is not whether you're in a business, it's who you are as a person. And it's being that 1% within the 1% revolutionary fucking leader who knows that they were born for more. And is willing to now do what it takes no matter what it takes to bring that purpose work to life. You should message me now about this. It is the final few days to join after this intake closes, which it will do in a couple of days at the latest. There will be no more way to work with me outside of my high-end inner circle 12 month mentoring until way later on in the year. And I'm sure I'll do something at some point again. But I'm really locking it down for this point in time after this intake. So send me a massage. I'll give you all details in the overview. If it's for you, we can get you onboard. And if not, that's totally fine as well. Have an amazing rest of the day. Think about who you need to step in to becoming, to let it be so damn easy that all you've gotta do each day is wake up, be you, and then create everything that's inside of you. Have an amazing rest of the day. Like I said, don't forget, life is now. Press play.

If you want to be an infosec guru, there are no shortcuts to the top. And enterprise information security expert, Christina Morillo knows exactly what that means. When she worked at the help desk, she explained technical jargon to non-technical users. As a system administrator, Christina organized and managed AD, met compliance regulations, and completed entitlement reviews. Also, as a security architect, she developed a comprehensive enterprise information security program. And if you need someone to successfully manage an organization’s risk, Christina can do that as well. In our interview, Christina Morillo revealed the technical certificates that helped jumpstart her infosec career, described work highlights, and shared her efforts in bringing a more accurate representation of women of color in tech through stock images. Transcript Cindy Ng: Christina Morillo has been in the security space long before automation and actual data became the industry's "it" word. She has been helping organizations advance their infosec and insider threat programs through her deep technical expertise in centralizing disparate systems, strengthening and automating tasks, as well as translating complex issues between the business and IT stakeholders. In our interview, Christina highlights hallmarks in her career, turning points in the industry, and how she worked her way to the top. Cindy Ng So, you've been in the security space for almost 20 years, and you've seen the field transform into something that people didn't really know about. Into something that people see almost regularly on the front page news. And I wanted to go back in time and for you to tell us how you got started in the security business. Christina Morillo: So, I actually got started in the technology industry about 18 years ago, and out of that, in security, I've been like 11 to 12 years. But I pretty much got started from the ground up while I was attending university. I actually got a job doing technical support for, at the time, compaq computers. So that's like I'm aging myself right there. But back when compaq computers were really popular, I worked for a call center, and we did 24-hour technical support. And that's where I kind of learned all of my troubleshooting skills, and being able to kind of walk someone through restarting their computer, installing an update, installing a patch, being able to articulate technical jargon, in a nontechnical format. Then from there, I moved on to doing more desktop support. I wanted to get away from the call center environment, I wanted to get away from that, and be in, like, an enterprise environment where I was the support person, so I could get that user interaction. So that's where my journey started. It feels like yesterday, but it's been a long time. Cindy Ng It goes by quickly, and how did you get started at Swiss Re? Christina Morillo: When I came back home from university, I am originally from New York City, I was looking for work. And I wanted to really get into financial services, doing IT within the financial services industry because I knew that would be a good strategic move for my professional career. I bumped into this recruiter, and he told me about a position at Swiss Re within their capital management investment division. And so I gave it a go even though I didn't have the experience. You know, I took a shot. And they really liked the fact that I had prior experience with active directory and networking. And since I was very much hands-on and I had just taken some Microsoft certifications, so I was like really into it. So I was able to answer the questions really efficiently, and they liked me, so they gave me the shot. That's what started me into the world of information security, and identity, and access management, and access control. I learned all my "manual foundation" I'll call it, manual fundamentals, at Swiss Re. Cindy Ng Would you say that your deep understanding of AD was an important part of your career? Christina Morillo: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Cindy Ng And what do most sysadmins get wrong when it comes to their understanding of AD? Christina Morillo: There is a lot to do with the whole permissioning and file structure. A lot of times people don't really go into the differences between share permissions and NTFS permissions. And it can get really complex really fast. Especially when you're learning in school, you create your environment, right? So it's very clean. But when you start at a company, you're looking at years of buildup. So you go into these environments where it's nowhere near what you learned at school. So you're just like, oh my goodness. And it becomes really overwhelming very quickly. I think it's, like, not having that deep understanding and deep knowledge, and just kind of taking short routes. Because we're very busy during the day, and there's a lot to do, right? Especially for sysadmins. They have a lot on their plates. So I think a lot of times it's like, okay, use your own backlist. Just throw them in whatever group, we'll fix it later. And later never comes. I don't fault them, but I just think that we need to be a little bit more diligent with understanding structures and fundamentals. Cindy Ng How did you spend time figuring out how to restructure a certain group, if that was an important part in your job? In your team? Christina Morillo: Yeah. Of course, absolutely. I always want to because it makes my life easier. But, you know, you're not always able to. And that's because, like I said, it's so complex, and there's so many layers that peeling these layers back will cause chaos. So sometimes you have to prioritize. And just from like a business perspective you have to prioritize. You know, is this something that we can do gradually or look at setting up as a project and completing it in phases, or is it high-priority, right? And so, the first thing I do is I talk to whoever owns the group or let's say whatever specific department, like finance. So who approved access to this group? So I like to kind of determine that. And then work my way backwards. So, okay, if this is the owner of the group, then I like to say, "Who should get access to this group?" What kind of access do they need to this group? Do they need read-only access, or do they need modify access?" And then go from there. And who should be the initial members of the group? And a lot of times its a matter of having to recreate the group. So create a fresh group, add the individual users, read-write or modify, or read-only, and then migrate them into the group, and then delete the old group. Which that part can take time because you don't know what you're touching. A lot of times people like to permission groups at different levels where they don't belong. The worst thing that can happen is you can cause an outage and you never really want that. Kind of investigating and using tools like DatAdvantage to help with the investigations to better understand what you're doing before you do it. So it's a process. I mean, I wouldn't say it's something easy. That's why, a lot of times, it's put on the back burner. But, you know, I feel like it's something that has to be done. Cindy Ng Your next role which was at Alliance Bernstein? Christina Morillo: So at Alliance Bernstein, that was a short-term contract. That was part of their incident response & security team. 50% of the time I was handling tickets, and, you know, approving out FTP access, and approving firewall access, and checking out scans or anti-virus scans, and making sure that our AV was up to date, and doing all that stuff. And then the other 50% was working on identity management and, like, onboarding applications into the system and testing. And then training the team that would handle day to day support. So it's like a level two, level three. And then defining the processes. You know, onboarding the applications, defining the processes, writing the documentation, and then handing over to the support team to take over from there. So it was a lot of conversation with stakeholders, application owners, and I really appreciated being able to be a part of those processes. That's why I started seeing more of the automation. I mean, at Swiss Re, we were very much manual for the first couple of years. Which was fantastic because, you know, although it was a pain, it was fantastic because I got to understand how to do things if the system was down. It gave me that understanding of like 'Oh, I know how to generate a manual report.' So when it came time to automate, I was like, 'Oh. Okay, this is nothing. I understand the workflow,' right? I can create a workflow quickly, or I can... I understand what we need, right? And it also helps when people are just like, "That's gonna take four days." I'm like, "Absolutely not. That's going to take you 45 minutes." So it was a great experience. Cindy Ng Would you ever buffer in time if systems went down? I'm thinking about something like ransomware. Christina Morillo: Thankfully, that never happened while I was at these companies. That never happened. And since it didn't hit my team, I think I've always been more on the preventative rather than being on the reactive side. A lot of times you did have to react to different situations or work in tandem with other teams, but I'm really into, like, preventative. Like, how can we minimize risk? How can we prevent this from happening? Kind of thinking out of the box that way. You have to not be an optimistic person. Like, you have to be like, well, this can happen if we leave that open. Right? And it's not even meant to sound negative, but it's almost like you have to have that approach because you have to understand what adversaries and hackers, how do they think? What would I want to do? Right? Like, if I see a door unlocked. It's almost like you're on the edge and you have to think that way, and you have to look at problems a little bit differently because, in business, you don't rank, you just want to do their work. Cindy Ng Did you develop that skill naturally, or was it innate, or did you realize, 'Oh my God, I need to start thinking a certain way'? The business isn't gonna care about it. That's why you're responsible for it. Christina Morillo: I think I've always had that skill set, but I think that I developed it more throughout my career. Like, added strength in that skill throughout my career. Because when you're starting, especially with network administration and sysadmin stuff, you have to be the problem solver. So you have to be on the lookout for problems. Because that's, like, your job, right? So there's a problem, you fix it. There's a problem, you fix it. So, a lot of times, just to make your job a little bit easier, you have to almost have to anticipate a problem. You have to say, 'Oh, if that window's open and if it rains, the water's gonna get in. So let's close the window before it rains!' It sounds intuitive, but a lot of times people just don't think that far ahead. I think it's just a matter of the longer I remain in the industry, the more I see things changing. And then you just have to evolve. So you always have to think about being one or two steps ahead, when you can. And I think that skill set comes with time. You just have to prepare. And also, like, the more you know... Like, I'm very big on education and training and learning even if it's not specific to my job. I feel like it helps broaden my perspective. And it helps me with whatever work I'm doing. I'm always taking either, like, a Javascript class or some class, or just like a fun in web development class. I've been looking for a Python class. Like, I did a technical cert, like boot camp. Like, I'm preparing for a cert. But it's a lot. But I also take ad-hoc stuff. Like I'll take a calligraphy class, just to kind of balance it out. You know I'll go to different talks at the 92nd Street Y. Whether it's technology related or just, like, futurism related, or just innovation related. Or something completely different. Cindy Ng I've read your harrowing story about taking a class at General Assembly with having kids and a husband. Oh my God, you are so amazing. It's so inspiring. Christina Morillo: Definitely hard. But, you know, you gotta do what you gotta do. And it's a problem because when you become a parent, it doesn't mean that you lose your ambition. It just kind of goes on a temporary hold. But then you when you remember, you're like 'Oh, wait a minute. No. I have to get back to it.' Cindy Ng So let's talk about Fitch Ratings. That role is really interesting. Christina Morillo: Yeah, yeah. Thus far, it's been one of my favorites. Because, at Fitch, I was actually able to deploy an identity and access management platform. So, on nothing to create something completely new and just deploy it globally, right? So what that means is that I changed the HR onboarding process and offboarding process. So, like, how new-hires are added to the system. How people that are terminated are removed from the system. How employees request access to different applications. How managers approve. How authorizers approve the entire workflow. So that was amazing. Basically, when I started, they wanted to go from pretty decentralized to a centralized model to purchase this out of the box application. They had a lot of transitions, so they needed someone to come in and own the application and say, like, "Okay, but let me implement it." It was just on a like a development server, not fully configured. So, my job was to come in, look at the use-cases, look at what they needed. At least initially. What needed to happen? How did they need to use this application? Then I needed to understand the business processes. Current things, or how do they perform this work today? Like, does the help desk do it? Does a developer give access to a specific application that they manage? What are they developed for? What happens now? So I took time to understand all of the processes. Right? Like, I spoke to everyone. I spoke to HR. I spoke to finance. I spoke to legal. I spoke to compliance. I spoke to the help desk. I spoke to network administration. I spoke to application developers. To compile all of that information in order to better create the use-cases and the workflows, and to kind of flesh them out. Then what I did is I started building and automating these processes in that tool, on that platform. My boss gave me... He said, "Oh, I'll give you like a year." And I was like, "Okay. Fine." But, I guess, once I got into like the thick of things, I got like really aggressive, and I really was hard with the vendor. Because I was a team of one. You know, I had support from our internal app team, and network administration team, and the sysadmins. But I completely owned the process, and owned the applications, and owned building it out. So I rode the vendor like crazy just to get this done, and understand, and just to look at it from top-bottom, bottom-to-top. And we were able to deploy it in five months. You know, I got them from sending emails and creating help desk tickets, to fully automated system, onboarding, offboarding, and requesting entitlements. But more importantly, I was able to get people on board. Because that's one of the other big things that you don't really discuss. A lot of times we got a lot of pushback. While what we do is extremely important, especially in security, and sometimes we're not the ones that are the most liked. People are afraid, right? So it's also about developing new relationships with your constituents, with the users, right? And helping them understand that you're not trying to make their lives miserable, you're just getting them on board. I think that also takes skill. It takes finesse. It takes being able to speak to people, relate to people. And also, it takes being able to listen at scale. Right? So you have to listen to understand. You know, I think if a lot of us did more listening and less talking, we would definitely understand where people are coming from and be able to kind of come up with solutions. I mean, you're not always gonna make people happy. Maybe some of the time. Not all of the time. But at least you've communicated, and they can respect you for that. Right? So I was able to get pretty much the entire company on board. And to welcome this tool that they had heard about for so long. And they weren't hesitant. To the point where I couldn't get them to leave me alone about it. Cindy Ng You were able to help them realize that you're still able to do your work, but to do it securely. Christina Morillo: And better. Cindy Ng When you say scared and concerned, what were they worried about? Christina Morillo: When you say the word "automation," the main worry is that people are gonna lose their jobs. When someone says, "Oh, I heard that the tool will allow you to onboard a user.' People won't need to call the help desk anymore for that or won't need help with that. Then you're taking away like a piece or a portion of their work that may affect their productivity. And if it affects their productivity, it will affect the money that the team or the department gets. If that happens, then, obviously, we don't need ten help desk people. We only need five. Right? So, pretty much, it's like fear of losing their jobs or fear that they're becoming obsolete. So that's usually the biggest one. And also when there's, like, a new person coming in asking you how do you do your work, what is the process, that's kind of scary. "Why do you want to know? Are you taking over? Are you trying to take away my work?" You're always going to get push back. I think that's part of the job, especially when you're in security. You're just always going to. And, you know, people fear what they don't understand. So that's part of it too. Cindy Ng Let's talk about Morgan Stanley now. So at this point, you're at a really more strategic level where you're really helping entire teams managing risk? Christina Morillo: Yeah. So while I was at Fitch and, you know, while I loved it, it became more of a sysadmin type of role. So I decided to begin looking for my next opportunity. And Morgan Stanley came up with that summer. And I looked at it as, well, this is a great opportunity for me to be at a more strategic level and understand, become a middleman, right? Almost like a business analyst where I'm understanding what the business needs and the kind of liaising on the technology side. So I thought it would be a good opportunity for me to hone that skill set on the business side and look at values opposition. But also because of my technical background, I'll be able to communicate with and get things done on the tech side. So that was amazing. I mean, I learned a lot about how the business and IT engage. What's important, and how to present certain, I guess, calls for action. Like, if you need something done, like, oh, you implement a new DLP solution. Are you solving a problem for the business or are you solving a problem for technology? Understanding the goal. Understanding your approach. And looking at things two ways. Looking at how to resolve a problem tactically. How can we resolve this issue today? And then what is the strategic or long-term solution? So a lot of business-speak, a lot of how to present. I think I would almost equate it to... My time at Morgan Stanley... And I'm no longer at Morgan Stanley, actually. But my time at Morgan Stanley I equated to getting a mini-MBA because it really prepared me and allowed me to think differently. I think, you know, when you're in technology you tend to stay in your tech cocoon. And that's all you want to do and talk about. But understanding how others think about it, even how project managers engage with a business. The business is just thinking about risk, and how to minimize risk, and how they can do their jobs and make money. Because, at the end of the day, that's what the goal is, right? Yeah, it allowed me to understand that. Whereas normally, on the tech side, I never really had to deal with that or face it. So I didn't think about it. But at Morgan, you have to think about it, and you have to create solutions around it. Cindy Ng Also, IT’s often seen as, a cost center rather a money generator. Christina Morillo: I've always had an issue with that. Even though IT, like, we're seen as a cost center, without us... And I'm biased, obviously... But I feel like without us, you wouldn't be able to function. At the end of they day, are we generating money? I think so. But then it goes into that whole chicken or the egg thing. But that's my argument, and I guess I'm biased. I've always been in IT, right? Cindy Ng What's most important to business? Is it always about the bottom line? For IT people, its always about security and minimizing risk. Christina Morillo: It is about the bottom line. There are many avenues to get to there more efficiently, or just a little bit smarter. It's like working smarter. But I think one of the ways is by listening at scale. Just like if you're starting a company, you're providing a service, you need to understand who your target market is, right? You need to understand what they want and why they want it. And that's how you know what service you can provide or how you can tailor your needs to them. Why? Because then they will buy it from you, or they will seek services from you. And what does that mean? That means you get to collect that money. And sometimes you need, like, a neutral group. You know? Like a working group. I realized they have a lot of working groups. So a lot of discussion. Sometimes that can be good and bad, but I see it as more of a positive thing. And the reason why is because you need to be able to hear from both sides, right? Both sides need to be able to express themselves, and everyone needs to be one the same page or get to that same page somehow. You need to understand what I need as a business user. I need to be able to book a trade, or I need to be able to do this, and I need to do it in this amount of time. Now how can you help me? And then the IT person, or the security person, whoever needs to be able to say, "Okay. Well, this is what I can do, this is what I cannot do right now. But maybe this is what I can do in the future." Again, it goes back to that we are problem solvers. So we're all about solutions and how to keep the business afloat and keep the business running and operating. That's our job. We're not there to say we have to do it this way. That's not what we're there for. So I think it's also understanding what role everyone plays, and understanding that we all have to kind of like work together to get to that common goal. Let's say we have a working group about implementing Varonis DataPrivilege globally, right? So then you have stakeholders from every department, or every department that it would touch. So if that means if that the security team is going to be involved, we have a representative from the security team. If that means that the project management who's managing the project is gonna be involved, we have someone from that team. So you pretty much have a representative from each team that it will affect. Including the business, at times, so that they're aware of what's going on. And then you have status updates on what's going on. What do we need? Where are the blocks and the blockers? And people get to speak, and people get to brainstorm, and you get to bring up problems, and what you need from the other team, what they need from you. And it just helps with getting projects moving and getting things going quickly and just more efficiently without anyone feeling like they weren't represented in the decision-making process. It also speaks to that as well. Cindy Ng Before our initial conversation, I had no idea that you used DatAdvantage. Christina Morillo: My last employer, they used DatAdvantage, and were also implementing portions of DataPrivilege. The company before that, Fitch, we used DatAdvantage heavily. So, like, recording. You know, it's been a couple of years, so I don't know if they still use the tool. But I know when I was there, I actually used it for reporting purposes, and to help me generate reports, and just do, like, investigations, and other rule-based stuff. Cindy Ng Was it helpful for, like, SOX compliance? Christina Morillo: Yeah. Yeah, especially when whether it was internal or external audits, we always got the call. Like, "Can you come and give me access to this group on such and such date?" or, "Can you come and get this removed?" or, "Can you tell me this?" Just weird ad-hoc requests. That makes sense, right? But at the time, you're like, 'Why did you need this?' Being able to kinda quickly generate the report was, like, super helpful. Cindy Ng And finally, I love what you do with the Women of Color in Tech chat. Christina Morillo: Yeah, yeah. A friend of mine, Stephanie Morillo...no relation, just same last name...but we both work in tech. And in 2015, we decided to co-found a grassroots initiative to help other women of color, and non-binary folks and just under-represented people in technology to have a voice, a community. We started off as Twitter chats. So we would have weekly, bi-weekly Twitter chats. Just have conversations, conversations with the community. And then we started getting contacted by different organizations. So they wanted to sponsor some of our community members to attend conferences, and just different discussions and meetups and events. So we started to do that. We also did, like, a monthly job newsletter, where companies, like Twitter and Google, they contacted us. Then we worked with them. We kind of posted different positions they were recruiting for and shared it directly with our community. And then, the thing we're most known for is the Women of Color in Tech stock photos, which basically is a collection of open-source stock photos featuring women and non-binary folks of color who work in technology. So those photos, the goal was to give them out for free, open-source them, so people that can have better imagery, right? Because we felt that that representation mattered. The way that that came about was when I was building the landing page for the initiative, I realized that I couldn't find any photos of women who like me who work in technology. And it made me really upset. Right? And so that activated... I feel like that anger activated something within me, and maybe it came as a rant. Like, I was just, like, "Okay, Getty, don't you have photos of women in tech who look like me?" Why is every... Whether white or Asian or whoever... Why is any... And I see a woman with a computer or an iPad, it looks like she's playing around with it. Those are the pictures that I was seeing. This is not what I do. This is not what I've done. So I just felt like I wasn't represented. And then if I wasn't represented, countless of other folks weren't as well. I spoke to a photographer friend of mine who also works in tech. And he started like his side passion stuff. So he agreed, and we just kind of started out. I mean, we went with the flow. It turned out amazing. And we released the photos. We open sourced them, and we got a lot of interest, a lot of feedback, a lot of features, a lot of reporting on it. And we decided to go for another two rounds. You know, a lot of companies we talked to were like, "We want to be a part of this. This is amazing. How can we support you?" So a lot of great organizations. If you look at the site, you see of those organizations that sponsored the last two photo shoots. We released the collection of over 500 photos. And we've seen them everywhere, from Forbes, Wall Street Journal. It's like I've seen them everywhere. They're just, like, all over the web. Some of our tech models have gotten jobs because they started conversations. Like, "Wait, weren't you in the Women of Color in Tech photos?" "Yeah, that's me!" Whatever. Some people have gotten stopped, like, "Wait a minute, you're in this photo." Or they get tags. They've been used at conferences. Some organizations are now using them as part of their landing pages. They're like all over the place. And that was the goal. But it really, you know, makes us really happy. But just seeing photos all over the place, and the fact that people recognize that those are our photos, it was just amazing. We actually open sourced our process as well. We released an article that spoke about how we got sponsors, what we did, in hopes that other people, other organizations would also get inspired and replicate the stock photos. But we also get inquiries about, you know, "Are you gonna have another one? Can you guys have another one?" So it's up in the air. I'm debating it. Maybe.

This is session number 126 of the Absolute Mind podcast and this session is all about finding your happy. For so many happiness eludes them, in this show I'll share some tips and insights into happiness and how you can apply them. Surely, happiness needs to be everyone's number one biggest goal. Because if you're able to achieve happiness, then nothing else matters. Is an interesting though, that so many people seem to value things like success, recognition, outcomes, and even financial recognition over happiness? This podcast I'm going to go through several principles and proven ideas that could allow you to feel more happy, more often. Tip 1: Find your uniqueness! This has to be first and foremost because I believe that different things make different people happy. Therefore it's absolute paramount you discover what it is that you so desire that will allow you to feel happy. Think about it for a moment but don't pay any attention to what you think others might feel, or judge about what you uniquely feel would make you happy. This really is personal and has opposed the irony of this podcast is that if it's personal, how is it possible that I can view any tips? haha Tip 2: Goals When you decide what it is that would make you happy, you then need to make a plan of how you will achieve those goals. Goal setting is also another way that the science shows us that we can begin to feel more happy once with achieve those goals, albeit for a short period afterwards. But really think about this, what is your plan look like, what you need to do to make yourself happy, what's standing in your way of happiness? Tip 3: Only the lonely The science also tells us that people who surround ourselves with other people, who are said to be achieving and happy will also be happy. So think about who you surround yourself with, what are they like, what is their state like? another way I like to think of this is imagine you're like a magnet and you're going to begin to absorb the energy of those around you, are those people close to you the kind of energy is that you need to feel happy? Tip 4: Ability to change direction Life isn’t clear. Things don’t always go to plan. So why don’t we plan to things not being clear and not going the way we want to? Most of us find happiness when we achieve the things that we want, and get what we desire. But life gets in the way so the present and always keep in mind that you may need to change direction. Don't find yourself mulling over the negativity of what's been delivered. Embrace the change set a new goal and work towards achieving it. Tip 5: Bookmark your day Bookmarking your day really means starting your day and finishing your day with very clear points and intentions. I cover this more in the influence psychology and persuasion podcast, but in a nutshell you need to ask yourself certain questions at the end of every night that direct your attention to what you've achieved. Questions like, what I done today, what I learned today, who has impacted me positively today, why am I better because of today? Questions like this will allow your brain to go and find answers which will be conducive to you feeling happy. Morning questions are things like: what am I looking forward to much today? Who can I connected today? Whose happiness is going to impact me today? Really have a think to how you can bookmark your day to make yourself feel happier. Tip 6: Treat yourself The reason why mothers put their oxygen masks on themselves on a plane first, is because they are the most important person. This is why, you also need to treat yourself like the most important person and reward yourself and look after yourself as much as you can. That can be a treat, something nice, some time out for yourself to enjoy. A treat now and again will allow you to recharge your batteries and allow in more happiness. Tip 7: Laugh Who can write a post about happiness without including laughter? Not only is laughter contagious, but it also breeds happiness and humour. The first step here is to include things in your life that do make you laugh. Comedy films, being out with friends and generally anything that you find humorous. the next piece though is about finding humour in other situations where perhaps you would normally. We call this reframing in NLP terms and it really is about generating a humorous situation about an event that has happened to you. This will immediately allow you to feel differently about it. Tip 8: Accept yourself In order for all of the above to be helpful it needs to be built on a foundation of acceptance and worthiness. You need to feel that you are worthy of feeling happy. This is a block where some people feel stuck. Remember, you're the one in 1 billion creation who won the first race of your life, and you battled on to get a point were you listening to this now. It really is about learning to love and appreciate yourself and everything you do, will do and have done. Without exception, happiness is just a feeling. Most people give themselves conditions about feeling certain ways. Like I'll feel happy when I have X or I’ll feel why when I've done Z. And remember, people think that they want things in order to make them feel happy but actually all we really want are the feelings we think those things will bring us. But feelings always come from within, and you always able to create these whenever you need to. So don't make happiness conditional just feel happy now.  

In today's "Housecall for Health", FOX's Alex Hein reports on what to say to loved ones with suffering from cancer: When a loved one or someone you know is diagnosed with cancer, it can be difficult to find the right words to say. Prevention has come up with six things that you can say that can help offer some relief to a patient or caregiver struggling with the diagnosis: Instead of asking how to help, state the task you've decided to do. Like I'll pick up the kids, or I'm dropping dinner off at 5 p.m. Know when to ooze optimism and know when to hear them out. Rather than say something generic, like it's going to be okay, ask instead how they are doing and be responsive. Ask what the established boundaries are regarding questions you can and cannot ask. Let them know you're thinking about them. One simple line that doesn't always need a response. Share your good news too, but make sure it's at the appropriate time. Don't shy away from sharing your life with them. Nothing at all. Sometimes listening is all a person really wants. For more on this story, check FOXNewsHealth.com. Housecall for Health, I'm Alex Hein, FOX News. Follow FOX's Alex Hein on Twitter: @Ahlex3889