Podcast appearances and mentions of Tennessee Valley Authority

In this episode of The Psychedelic Podcast, Paul F. Austin welcomes Bryan Hubbard, a prominent advocate for psychedelic-assisted therapies, particularly ibogaine in the treatment of opioid addiction and mental health disorders.  Find full show notes and links here: https://thethirdwave.co/podcast/episode-305/?ref=278 Update (May 2025): Days before this episode's release, the Texas House approved a Senate-backed bill to fund ibogaine research through a public-private partnership aimed at securing FDA approval. This vote marks a major milestone in the movement Bryan describes throughout this conversation. Bryan shares his journey from leading Kentucky's Opioid Abatement Advisory Commission to spearheading breakthrough ibogaine research initiatives in Texas. He articulates ibogaine's unique neurological properties, discussing how it can reset brain neurochemistry in 36 hours and potentially treat conditions from traumatic brain injury to Parkinson's disease. The conversation explores the spiritual dimensions of ibogaine experiences, the political landscape surrounding psychedelic medicine, and Bryan's ongoing efforts to medicalize ibogaine through FDA drug development trials, highlighting Texas as the next frontier for this life-saving research. W. Bryan Hubbard is the Executive Director of the American Ibogaine Initiative. He is the first and former Chairman and Executive Director of the Kentucky Opioid Abatement Advisory Commission. He concurrently served as Special Counsel to the Kentucky Attorney General's Office of Medicaid Fraud and Abuse Control and was its prior Executive Director. He served on the Kentucky Judicial Commission on Mental Health, the Kentucky Child Support Guidelines Commission, Mine Safety Review Board, and the Kentucky Office of Drug Control Policy's Recovery Ready Communities Advisory Council. He previously served as Commissioner of the Kentucky Department of Income Support wherein he led the Commonwealth's Social Security Disability and Child Support Enforcement systems. He practiced workers' compensation law representing Walmart, Tyson Foods, and Tennessee Valley Authority for sixteen years. During his practice years, he observed the predacious onset of Kentucky's Opioid Epidemic amid generational joblessness, poverty, disability, and substance use. He was raised in Virginia's coalfields and is the proud grandson of two grade-school educated coal miners on whose shoulders he stands. Highlights: Why ibogaine interrupts addiction instantly The Stanford study that changed everything Resetting brain neurochemistry in 36 hours From Parkinson's to PTSD: Ibogaine's broad applications The spiritual awakening dimension of treatment How pharmaceutical interests block breakthrough medicine Kentucky's lost opportunity: $42 million for research Texas as the new frontier for ibogaine medicalization Matrix pharmacology: Ibogaine's intelligent mechanism The political war over life-saving psychedelic medicine Episode Links Website American Ibogaine Initiative Instagram: @w_bryan_hubbard X (Formerly Twitter): @w_bryan_hubbard Linkedin Episode Sponsors: Golden Rule Mushrooms - Get a lifetime discount of 10% with code THIRDWAVE at checkout

What does it take to become a musical chameleon who commands respect across diverse genres? Daniel Kimbro delivers a masterclass in musical versatility on this episode of Chewing the Gristle.From his beginnings in a family folk band called Mountain Soul to his current status as bassist for Jerry Douglas and session player on Eric Clapton records, Daniel shares the winding path that shaped his musical identity. With disarming honesty, he reveals how growing up surrounded by Stanley Brothers, Sting, and classical music created the perfect foundation for a career that refuses categorization.Daniel takes us deep into the heart of Appalachian musical traditions, particularly the fascinating world of murder ballads – those deceptively cheerful melodies paired with dark narratives. His own songwriting draws from this tradition, including "Loyston," a haunting tale about a town submerged underwater when the Tennessee Valley Authority built dams across the region. The conversation explores how these songs balance historical reality with creative embellishment, creating something both authentic and original.Whether you're a musician seeking to diversify your influences or simply curious about the connections between bluegrass, jazz, and everything in between, this conversation offers rich insights into finding your authentic voice while honoring musical traditions. Check out Daniel's music and keep an eye out for The Woodshed Guitar Experience, where he serves as music director alongside world-class guitarists sharing knowledge in an unusually accessible environment.

Today we tell the story of the battle over the Tellico Dam, the last major project of the Tennessee Valley Authority. TVA's ambitious plans for the Tellico project included not only a dam and lake but also the development of a brand-new city to be called Timberlake.  However, the project faced fierce resistance from landowners who were being forced to sell their land, the Cherokee, whose most important Overhill towns were going to be flooded by the dam, and environmentalists trying to save the habitat of the endangered snail darter fish.   A lawsuit over the fish won a victory in the Supreme Court for those wanting to stop the Tellico Dam, but that wasn't the end of the story, as you'll find out in this episode.  If you like our stories, be sure to subscribe to the Stories of Appalachia podcast on your favorite podcast app or on our YouTube channel.  Thanks for listening!

On this week's show, we bring you a national conversation with Marc Dunkelman, author of the book "Why Nothing Works: Who Killed Progress—And How to Bring It Back," that was hosted by the High Speed Rail Alliance on April 4, 2025. Marc J. Dunkelman is a fellow at Brown University's Watson Institute for International and Public Affairs and a former fellow at NYU's Marron Institute of Urban Management. During more than a decade working in politics, he worked for Democratic members of both the Senate and the House of Representatives and as a senior fellow at the Clinton Foundation. The author of The Vanishing Neighbor, Dunkelman's work has also appeared in the New York Times, Washington Post, Wall Street Journal, Atlantic, and Politico. He lives in Providence, Rhode Island. America built the world's greatest rail network, along with a vast electrical grid, interstate highways, abundant housing, the Social Security system, the Tennessee Valley Authority, and more. But today, even while facing pressing challenges that include dilapidated infrastructure and a climate crisis, progress is difficult. In this talk, you'll hear from Marc Dunkelman, author of the new book Why Nothing Works: Who Killed Progress—And How to Bring It Back. He argues that both conservatives and progressives have played a role in creating gridlock that stifles progress, and that we can get past it. Learn more about Why Nothing Works at https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/marc-j-dunkelman/why-nothing-works/9781541700215/ Learn about upcoming webinars hosted by the Alliance: https://www.hsrail.org/events/ Become a member of the High Speed Rail Alliance: https://www.hsrail.org/join-us/ The High Speed Rail Alliance is a 501(C)(3) non-profit, supported by individual members who want fast, frequent, and affordable trains throughout North America. Truth to Power airs every Friday at 9pm, Saturday at 11am, and Sunday at 7pm on Louisville's grassroots, community radio station, Forward Radio 106.5fm WFMP and live streams at https://www.forwardradio.org

MONTGOMERY – The Energy Institute of Alabama (EIA) celebrated Lineman Appreciation Day to recognize Alabama's lineworkers for all they do to ensure reliable electric service across the state. When storms impact Alabama, it is linemen who work under dangerous conditions and put themselves in harm's way to restore power to communities in need. Lineworkers were in attendance from a number of EIA member companies, including Alabama Power Company, Alabama Rural Electric Authority, Energy Southeast, Electric Cities of Alabama, PowerSouth Energy and Tennessee Valley Authority. Linemen were thanked for their service by State Senator April Weaver (R-Brierfield), WSFA Chief Meteorologist Josh...Article Link

Welcome back to the Alt Goes Mainstream podcast.Today's episode dives into an important and growing part of the private markets ecosystem: how investors can access and invest into alternatives through their retirement funds.We have Eric Satz, the Founder & CEO of Alto, a self-directed IRA custodian, with us today to discuss how he's on a mission to provide everyday Americans with the same investment opportunity long favored by institutional investors.Alto provides custody for a wide array of alternative assets, including private companies, real estate, crypto, loans, and securitized collectibles. Alto has streamlined the process for companies, funds, and SEC-registered investment platforms to include IRA investors in their offerings. They've partnered with firms across the alts space, including AngelList, Coinbase, EquityZen, Republic, Masterworks, and others, to enable investors to invest into private markets with their IRA.Eric is a serial entrepreneur and former investment banker. He worked at DLJ / Credit Suisse First Boston before co-founding Currenex (acquired by State Street for $564M), Plumgood Food, and Tennessee Community Ventures. His passion for entrepreneurship led him to serve on the Board of the Tennessee Valley Authority from 2015 to 2018 and he teaches an entrepreneurship class to high school students.On today's podcast, Eric teaches us all about the merits of a self-directed IRA. We had a fascinating discussion about why and how it makes sense to use an IRA to invest into private markets investments and how he's taking lessons learned from prior IRA businesses to build Alto.We discussed:Rethinking retirement investing.The evolution of the self-directed IRA market.Alto's vision: TurboTax for IRAs.Structural challenges with using IRAs for private markets investments.The role of technology with streamlining retirement investing.The evolution in investor awareness of retirement investing.The importance of duration matching.Thanks Eric for coming on the show to share your knowledge and passion for alternatives.Show Notes00:00 Introduction: Going Mainstream00:38 Welcome to Alt Goes Mainstream Podcast00:52 Introducing Eric Satz and Alto01:33 Eric's Background and Entrepreneurial Journey01:57 The Mission of Alto02:01 The TurboTax for IRAs02:05 The Importance of Retirement Accounts in Private Markets02:29 Welcoming Eric to the Podcast02:37 The Evolution of Private Markets and IRAs02:51 The Beginnings of Alto03:13 Challenges in Self-Directed IRAs03:54 The Vision for Self-Directed IRAs04:28 Changing Conventional Wisdom on Retirement Investing05:40 The Demographics of the IRA Industry06:21 The Growth of IRA Accounts06:38 The Allocation to Alternative Assets07:36 Barriers to Private Market Investments in IRAs07:50 Psychological Barriers to Alternative Investments08:35 Structural Challenges in Using IRAs for Private Investments08:53 The Role of Technology in Streamlining Investments09:02 The Launch of Alto with AngelList10:05 The User Journey in Private Market Investments10:43 The Role of Financial Advisors11:10 Educating Investors on Private Markets12:25 The Evolution of Investor Knowledge12:35 The Importance of Tax-Advantaged Investments13:11 The Financial Advisor's Perspective14:05 The Benefits of Illiquidity in Private Markets15:54 The Role of Large Asset Managers16:17 The Branding of Private Markets16:45 The Growth of Athene and Financial Advisors16:57 The Importance of Current Income in Retirement Accounts17:43 The Younger Generation's Investment Behavior18:05 The Impact of Evergreen Fund Structures19:04 The Role of Asset Management Firms20:02 The Future of Private Market Solutions20:15 The Role of Alto in Private Market Investments20:54 The Importance of Infrastructure in Private Markets21:44 The Evolution of Alto's Business Model21:50 The Growing Awareness of Private Markets23:57 The Role of the Alto Marketplace24:35 The Inclusion of Crypto in IRAs25:17 The Challenges of Transitioning Assets to IRAs25:50 The Impact of Friction on Investment Decisions27:46 The Success of Alto's Technology28:35 The Role of Funds in Promoting IRAs29:36 The Future of Private Markets and Wealth Channels31:11 The Role of Financial Advisors in Private Markets31:58 Educating Financial Advisors on IRAs32:13 The Importance of Conferences and Networking47:13 The Future of Private Markets and Retirement Accounts47:32 The Role of Regulations in Private Market Investments50:27 Conclusion: The Potential of Retirement Accounts in Private MarketsEditing and post-production work for this episode was provided by The Podcast Consultant.

Last week, we delved into story of how the Tennessee Valley Authority, which started out as a public institution, ended up acting like a private for-profit company, and the lawsuit that attempted to finally bring the TVA to its heel. Today, Montana Public Radio's podcast The Wide Open tells the story of a different lawsuit against the TVA that had even bigger consequences. In the 1970s, the fight to save a tiny fish called the snail darter turned the Endangered Species Act from a minor bit of federal law into the most powerful and controversial piece of environmental legislation of the past 50 years.The Wide Open Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ on Apple Podcasts to listen to ad-free new episodes and get exclusive access to bonus content.

We talked about Elia Kazan's 1960 film Wild River, a great social drama about the changing south seen through the lens of the Tennessee Valley Authority and a town that likes things the old-fashioned way. Get the full episode and a lot more for $5/mo https://www.patreon.com/c/Extended_Clip

In this episode of Do Beautiful Things, Jenny Lawson is joined by Kathleen Gibi of Keep the Tennessee River Beautiful and Michael McCall from the Tennessee Valley Authority (TVA). Together, they discuss the power of collaboration in building sustainable, healthy communities, the importance of preserving America's river systems, and their commitment to the Greatest American Cleanup—the largest cleanup and beautification effort in history. Tune in to learn how collaboration and volunteer engagement are making a meaningful impact on our environment and communities.QUOTES:Creating Sustainable Impact through Partnerships: "We should be following a model where we can engage others and partner with others to do this, because I think that is the only real way that you can actually get sustainable impact is if you get other people involved through partnerships to get out and do action." - Michael McCall, VP of Environment and Sustainability, and Chief Sustainability Officer at the Tennessee Valley Authority The Importance of River Cleanup: "80% of the plastic in our oceans is said to come from rivers. Cleaning up the ocean in a lot of ways without cleaning up the rivers is much like...cleaning up blood on the floor without stopping the bleeding on the patient on the table. So that's why the work we get to do with our partners and volunteers is so crucial." - Kathleen Gibi, Executive Director of Keep the Tennessee River Beautiful Show Notes: 00:00 Greatest American Cleanup beautifying 25,000 communities. 06:13 TVA: Unique regional energy-water economic integration. 08:52 TVA supports Tennessee River cleanup since 2018. 13:02 Engage others through partnerships for sustainable impact. 13:56 Campaign fosters pride, action, and shared values. 19:44 Consistent focus needed to preserve Tennessee River. 22:31 TVA concerned about storm, river system effective. 24:07 Clearing red tape for quicker community recovery. 27:38 Local affiliates tirelessly support community environmental efforts. 30:53 Get involved with kab.org and support. Show Links: Keep the Tennessee River Beautiful: https://www.keeptnriverbeautiful.org/Tennessee Valley Authority: https://www.tva.com/Keep America Beautiful: https://kab.org/Greatest America Cleanup: https://kab.org/greatest-american-cleanup/

On Dec. 22, 2008, a major dike failure occurred on the north slopes of the ash pond at the Tennessee Valley Authority's (TVA's) Kingston Fossil Plant. The failure resulted in the release of approximately 5.4 million cubic yards of coal ash spilling onto adjacent land and into the Emory River. The Kingston spill is considered one of the most significant and costly events in TVA history. In a project completion fact sheet issued jointly by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and the TVA in December 2014, it says the cleanup took about six years, required a total of 6.7 million man-hours, and cost $1.178 billion. TVA hired various contractors to perform the post-spill cleanup, removal, and recovery of fly ash at the Kingston site. Perhaps most notable among them was Jacobs Engineering. TVA hired Jacobs in 2009 specifically to provide program management services to assist with the cleanup. Jacobs claims to have “a strong track record of safely managing some of the world's most complex engineering and environmental challenges.” It has noted that TVA and the EPA's on-scene coordinator oversaw the worker safety programs for the Kingston cleanup, approving all actions in consultation with the Tennessee Department of Environment and Conservation. Jacobs said TVA maintained rigorous safety standards throughout the cleanup, and that it worked closely with TVA in following and supporting those standards. Jared Sullivan, author of Valley So Low: One Lawyer's Fight for Justice in the Wake of America's Great Coal Catastrophe, studied the Kingston cleanup and followed some of the plaintiffs for more than five years while writing his book. As a guest on The POWER Podcast, Sullivan suggested many of the workers felt fortunate to be employed on the Kingston cleanup. The U.S. economy was not thriving at the time; housing and stock markets were in a funk, and unemployment was relatively high. “These workers—these 900 men and women—this disaster is kind of a godsend for them as far as their employment goes, you know. A lot of them needed work. Many of them were very, very pleased to get this call,” Sullivan explained. “The trouble is that after a year or so of working on this job site—of scooping up and hauling off this coal ash muck from the landscape, also from the river—they start feeling really, really terribly,” he said. “At first they kind of write off their symptoms as overworking themselves. In many cases, these workers were working 14-hour shifts and just pushing themselves really, really hard because there's a lot of overtime opportunities. So, that was good for them—that they could work so much, that this mess was so big,” Sullivan continued. But after a while, some workers start blacking out in their cars, having nosebleeds, start coughing up black mucous, and it becomes clear to them that the coal ash is the cause. Jacobs reports several contractors' workers at the Kingston site filed workers compensation claims against their employer in 2013. These workers alleged that conditions at the site caused them to experience various health issues that were a result of excessive exposure to coal ash. Jacobs said many of these claims were found to be unsubstantiated and were rejected. Then, many of the same workers filed lawsuits against Jacobs, even though they may not have been Jacobs employees. Jacobs says it stands by its safety record, and that it did not cause any injuries to the workers. “The case resolved early last year, after almost 10 years of litigation,” Sullivan said. “Jacobs Engineering and the plaintiffs—230 of them—finally settled the case. $77.5 million dollars for 230 plaintiffs. So, it works out to a couple hundred thousand dollars each for the plaintiffs after the lawyers take their fees—so, not tons of money.” In a statement, Jacobs said, “To avoid further litigation, the parties chose to enter into an agreement to resolve the cases.”

Reminder ELCTION COVERAGE IS FREE AT COMPASSKNOX.COM  Early voting ended with a surge last week, easily surpassing early turnout in the 2020 election. In this week's episode, Scott and Jesse look at the available data and also talk about two races in particular: U.S. Rep. Tim Burchett's quest for a fourth term in Congress, facing Democratic candidate Jane George; and the election in state House District 89, pitting Republican incumbent Rep. Justin Lafferty against Democrat Cary Hammond. Also: some rending of garments over the nonprofit Clothing Center that serves Knox County Schools; and a look at the Tennessee Valley Authority's plan for future energy production. Looking ahead, the guys preview next week's potentially fraught school board meeting, and of course the Nov. 5 election.

Fred Stafford, a STEM professional and anonymous energy commentator, discusses the Tennessee Valley Authority's potential to lead a nuclear revival in the United States — that is, if it can overcome the tensions between public and private interests and a looming debt ceiling that threatens to dim its nuclear ambitions. Read more on Substack: www.decouple.media

Now is the time to think critically, or your saviors will become your enslavers. The hurricanes are to shut us up. Inland storms hurt the unprepared the most. There were strange floods in the 1940's too. That's why the Tennessee Valley Authority came into existence. Ingersol Lockwood only wrote one book. Fake ones were inserted later. Is NC flooding a play for Lithium? InforWars is center stage in this drama and there's a reason they were allowed to collapse. How Alex Jones destroyed himself. Let's look back on green card voting. There are people arming themselves for bloody fights to come. The thrown election will land Trump in jail. Mobility is key to any operational plan. People gravitate towards real information. The group called anonymous flips their script. Be ready for a Tore Says election night show. Where we can, we give and we do. The coverup is worse than the crime. Another caller mentioned that the artificial sun is actually a direct energy weapon. Throwing people off their game is a strategy. Pay attention to all the major influencers. They are feeding the alligator and just hoping it eats them last.

This week, host Jason Jefferies is joined by Bookin' favorite Dan Hawkins in a discussion about The Orchard Keeper by Cormac McCarthy, the first in a Bookin' read-through of McCarthy's works.  Topics of discussion include William Faulkner, the Tennessee Valley Authority, bootleggers and blockaders, first novels, nature vs. technology, and much more.  Copies of The Orchard Keeper can be purchased here from Page 158 Books in Wake Forest, NC.  Happy reading!

With other major utilities using solar and wind to clean up their act, why is the Tennessee Valley Authority so focused on nuclear and gas? Plus the local news for August 27, 2024 and the comeback of Shelby Lynne. Credits: This is a production of Nashville Public RadioHost/producer: Nina CardonaEditor: Miriam KramerAdditional support: Mack Linebaugh, Tony Gonzalez, Rachel Iacovone, LaTonya Turner and the staff of WPLN and WNXP

The latest episode of Public Power Now focuses on the successful first-ever Tennessee Valley Women's Policy Summit, which was held in late July. Jessica Hogle, Vice President of Federal Affairs at the Tennessee Valley Authority, detailed the overall objectives of the summit, while Erin Gill, VP Sustainability & Government Relations for the Knoxville Utilities Board, and Gina Cooper, International Vice President, International Brotherhood of Electric Workers Fourth District, discussed key takeaways for them from summit panels that they participated in.

In this episode of Welcome to Cloudlandia, we have a thought-provoking discussion around AI and its future implications. We introduce Juniper, an advanced voice-based AI capable of tasks from writing to coding, giving insight into emerging technologies. We explore impacts like the attention economy, where value emerges without physical costs. Success stories like Mr. Beast showcase uniqueness and AI's potential to tackle real issues. The episode delivers a well-rounded look at AI capacities and societal changes. References to early smartphone adoption phases parallel today's AI capabilities. SHOW HIGHLIGHTS We discuss the potential of voice-based GPT-4.0 AI, specifically highlighting "Juniper" with a Scarlett Johansson-like voice, and its various applications from writing to coding. We compare the current adoption of AI to the early days of smartphones, emphasizing that we are only beginning to understand AI's full capabilities. We explore historical productivity trends, noting a decline since 1975, and question whether modern technology truly enhances productivity or just alters our perception of it. We debate the role of technology giants like Mark Zuckerberg and Tesla in shaping productivity and economic measurement. We reflect on the mid-20th century advancements such as electrification and infrastructure, and compare them to today's computing power and its economic impact. We discuss the concept of the attention economy and the creation of value from digital products without physical production costs, using digital creators like Mr. Beast as examples. We consider the potential of AI in solving real-world problems such as city traffic congestion and climate understanding, rather than just creating new opportunities. We emphasize the importance of practical solutions and specific use cases to fully leverage the capabilities of advanced AI technologies. We touch on the economic shifts in the digital era, including the rise of digital transactions and the non-tangible realm of digital innovation. We highlight the unique nature of success in the digital world, using examples like Mr. Beast and Taylor Swift, and discuss the challenges and opportunities presented by new technologies. Links: WelcomeToCloudlandia.com StrategicCoach.com DeanJackson.com ListingAgentLifestyle.com TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Dean: Mr Sullivan, who is that person that gives the directions when we start the podcast? Dan: Well, I'm not sure the one that says this podcast this call may be. Dean: You are the first one on this conference phone call, oh my goodness, who is she? Dan: Who is she? She's a bot. She's not real. She's a bot. She's not real. She's not real. She's not real, she doesn't sound. Dean: I've heard worse sounding bots. Dan: Dan, I have been experimenting, playing around with chat GPT-4.0. And I use it primarily in voice mode, meaning, you know, I just say things to it and it has an amazing Scarlett Johansson-like voice that has zero, not at all like Siri or Alexa. You know where those voices definitely sound like. They are bots. This, my GPT-4O I think her name's Juniper is the voice that I chose. She sounds like a real person, I mean, and has like real tone, real inflection, real like conversational feeling to it and I realized that I don't think we really understand what we have here. I mean, I look at it and I think, imagine if that was a real person. Dean: Now, when you say we, who are you talking about? Dan: I mean the collective royal we I I'm sorry I've never been around yeah, I just think we as a when I say we, we as a society or we as the people collectively using this, it reminds me of this Seinfeld episode where Kramer got this or Jerry got his dad, this wizard organizer, and they always use it as a tip calculator, like the least of all the functions that it has. They're just excited that it's a tip calculator, and I feel like that's the current level of my adoption of Juniper. Dean: Yeah, I think the big thing is what you let's say, a year from now, level of my adoption of Juniper, you know, yeah, I think the big thing is what you let's say a year from now. You're using Juniper for a year. What do you think will be different as a result of having this capability, new capability? Dan: Well, I think it's operator, you know, I think it's operator dependent, you know, I think it's up to me what I think if you said to me. You know, I think it's up to me what I think if you said to me listen, I'd like to introduce you to Juniper. She's going to come here and she'll be within. She's going to follow you around. She's going to be here within three feet of you or discreetly out of sight, whatever you, but whenever you call she'll be right there. She is a graduate level. She is a graduate level student. She could pass the bar. She knows everything that's ever been recorded, she speaks every language. She never sleeps, she can write, she can draw, she can do graphics, she can do coding Whatever you like, and she's yours 20 to a month. Have fun, yeah, do you think you'd use it Well? that's my question is that it feels like I'm not using it and I have it. That's essentially what I have. I've got it in my pocket. You know how they said. You know the iPod was launched with the promise of a thousand songs in your pocket. Well, I think this is really like. You know, an MBA or a PhD or whatever you want in your pocket is essentially what we have, and I find it very interesting. Dean: No, I think it's unique, you know, and it's brand new. But what problem did you have that this solves? Dan: Well, I think that it's not per se a problem, but I think that we're I really have been observing and thinking, and I've said it you know in lots of our conversations, that I think that 2020, you know, if we take the 50-year period from 1975 to 2025, that we've pretty much set the stage now for a new plateau launch pad kind of at the same time. I don't. I think that once we understand and people you know, I think it's almost like the iPhone had the app store, that became what Peter Diamandis called the interface moment. Right, that was the you know, that allowed, once people realized that the capabilities of the iPhone to both measure geographically where you are at any precisely at any moment, the gyro thing that can detect movement, the sound, the camera capabilities, the touch screen, all of those things, Well, people realized what the baseline capabilities of the phone were. They were able to architect very specific, you know, starting with games very specific ways to use the capabilities that are very specific ways to use the capabilities that are built into the phone and I think that right now it's almost like it can do anything, and I think that we need to figure out the very specific use cases and I think we'll see people. Dean: You keep saying we, but I don't think we is going to do it. I think you know, who we are. Do we have a cell phone number? Do we have a street address? You know, I think you're having a very interesting personal experience with the new technology. Yeah, I don't know, I don't know if anybody else is going to be in on this, but the big thing is, how are you going to set it up so that you can prove that this is valuable? I mean, let's say, three months from now the time you come back to. Toronto for your next strategic coach pre-zone workshop things you're going to test out and see if the inclusion of this spot with a very sexy Scarlett Johansson voice. This isn't the issue that she sued somebody for. Dan: I think it's, I don't know actually this voice is. It's not exactly her, but it's, you know, it's that tone and things. Dean: So yeah, so. Dan: I don't know that. It's a pleasing voice, much more pleasing and personal than Siri or Alexa, for instance. Yeah, but yeah, I think you're absolutely right it does come down to and I think that's where the paralysis of you know the it can do anything, but you know what would be you know where my mind goes. Dean: It's which, how that I already have, but am I going to assign this capability to so that I don't have to spend any time whatsoever interacting with this bot? But my who's a you know who's a live human being working for a strategic coach would that person actually work? Do this, you know, and actually and I tested out for three months what are you getting done faster? So, for example, we have an AI newsletter that rewrites itself every two weeks and chooses new content, designs it and goes out and it uses up one hour of my Linda Spencer, who's one of my team members on the marketing team, and it's very interesting, I mean we have about 2000 people who read it and they grade it and everything like that. But the only thing I have to do every two weeks she said here's the news, here's the results from the last newsletter, here's the design and contents of the next newsletter, yes or no? And I'll go through. I say, yeah, looks good, send it out, right. Yeah, now, that's not freeing me up, because we never had this capability before. It's a new capability, right, and it's been going for about nine months now and people will talk to me about it and you know everything like that and everything like that. But I haven't seen that it's made a huge difference in the crucial numbers of strategic coach, which are marketing calls. Are we generating great leads that people are talking to us about? Are they signing up for the program? Are they whatever? So the normal measurements. So I think, with any technology, the first thing I would establish before I got interested in the technology is what are the crucial numbers that we have that tell me that our business and myself are moving forward? And then, whatever I'm going to use the new technology for, it has to have an impact on those numbers. Yeah, I think that's yeah, because you know the amount of productivity. I'll use the United States as an example. You mentioned 1975 to 2025, 50 years of individual productivity in the United States was much higher in the 50 years before 1975, since it has been for the last 50 years since 1975. Even though there are these amazing books and that about how productivity is going through the world with the microchip. But the actual numbers which are gathered by the US government, the US Treasury Department, us Department of Labor, indicates that the level of individual productivity has actually gone down in the last 50 years even though the excitement level of productivity has gone through the roof. Dean: By what measurement? What are they deciding? Is product? Dan: Dollars of economic activity per hour per worker. Okay, that's how productivity is measured. Dean: The number of workers. Dan: You have the number of hours they work and the amount of economic dollars that their hour of activity produces. The productivity was much higher total for the entire all workers. Dean: But is it all productivity or personal productivity? Like are you saying no all? Dan: productivity? No, the entire GDP of the economy, measured by the number of workers. Yeah, okay by the number of workers it's going down, it's down. No, yeah, since 1975, it's not as great as it was from 1925 to 1975. So that 50-year period the productivity levels in the United States were bigger than the last 50 years. Dean: Wow, that seems. That's surprising. What do you think that means? Dan: Well, a lot of people are really excited and involving themselves in technological activity that produces absolutely no productivity. Yeah, they're very excited, they're very excited and they're getting very emotionally connected to this activity. But you know, I'm not saying that's not a great thing, I'm not. Maybe they're having more fun, Maybe they're you know, maybe they have. Dean: What actually counts as GDP. Dan: Well, GDP is amount of sales amount of sales. Dean: Okay, so would the advertising sales that Mark Zuckerberg makes for Facebook count as GDP, or is it only in physical, like you know, shippable goods, or whatever? Dan: Well, whatever, uh, you have a dollar spent on something that constitutes a sale to sale. Dean: Okay, so advertising, so Google and Facebook and Netflix and all of those things count as GDP? Sure, okay, all right, then that seems impossible. Dan: It seems impossible, but it's true. Dean: That's pretty wild. Dan: Yeah yeah. I'm not saying that Mark Zuckerberg isn't making a lot of money. I'm not saying Mark. Zuckerberg isn't productive. My feeling is that the technology is created, makes a lot of other people non-productive. Dean: Yeah, and I wonder I mean that's a do you think you know if you measured that in terms of the total population versus the workforce? Is that what? In terms of the total population versus the workforce, is that what you know? I'm just looking for some explanation of this right. Dan: Somewhere along the line, there has to be an economic transaction for it to constitute and everything else. See, this is the difference. Yeah and everything else See this is the difference? China talks about its GDP, but they don't use the same term that everybody else in the world uses. They use the economic value of what they've produced. So they can produce a million machines and they're sitting in a warehouse and they count that as GDP gross domestic product. But there was no sale, it's, you know, they spend it, it was an economic activity. There was a transaction there, but there was no sale. So I think that's the big thing. It doesn't count unless there's a sale. Dean: GDP, doesn't it? Dan: doesn't count as GDP unless there's a sale. Somebody makes money, yeah. Dean: Okay, money Okay, yeah, yeah, I mean, it's pretty. Dan: No, I'm not saying it's not exciting. And here's the. Dean: Thing. Dan: Maybe it's an A&I, it's what I would R&D stage. The last 50 years have been R&D stage. For the next 50 years, which are going to be 100 times bigger of GDP. Okay, that may happen, but it's not happening yet. Dean: Yeah, yeah, I mean it's pretty, yeah, it's pretty wild. I mean you can definitely see, like the capabilities of you know, you can definitely see this replacing many customer service interactions, for sure. For instance, it's like a you can definitely see that going away, that there's not going to be a need for humans manning a customer service telephone center, for instance you know, yeah, I mean if it's good, I mean if it's good you know, and it depends upon the service that's being talked about, but if it's good, you know, maybe it does See, efficiency is not effectiveness. Dan: You know, and effectiveness is that you made a sale. Efficiency is we took all the activities leading up to a sale and we made them more, faster and easier. Yeah, the question is did you get a sale out of it? Dean: Mm-hmm. Dan: Mm-hmm, yeah, so. I don't know, but I think there's a bit of a magician show going with a lot of different kinds of technology, you know. I mean, it was like somebody was saying, you know, they were talking about EVs and specifically they were talking about a Tesla, and specifically they were talking about a Tesla. And he says do you know how much faster zero to 60 is in a Tesla than any gas-powered? Or you know, and I said, to tell you the truth, I don't know. Dean: To tell you the truth. You know. Dan: Geez, you know All the things I've been thinking about since last Monday. I'm sorry, I just didn't get to that one Anyway. And he says well, it's easily a second faster. I said good. I said now, where do you do this? There isn't any way. We're in greater Toronto, the area of greater. Toronto 6 million people, where you can go from 0 to 60 on a city street in two seconds. You know and everything like that. He said, yeah, but boy, you know, I mean, just think of that, how much faster you can go. And I said, yeah, but Teslas don't go any faster in Toronto than any other car, that's true, and usually they're stopped. Dean: Yeah, that's exactly right yeah. Dan: So I think the Tech Magic Show, I think it multiplies people's imagination, but it doesn't multiply their results. You know, I think there's something about it. And I think this is great. I mean what you're telling me. I've had some really boring people on the other end of a phone call and Scarlett Johansson would really liven it up a little bit. Dean: Absolutely yeah, yeah, exactly. Dan: Yeah, I was noticing that Cleveland hired Jack Nicholson and they still use it. It must have been 20 years ago. All the announcements, the regular announcements like don't leave your bags unattended, and things like that, oh right. There's a whole bunch of just what I would call airport announcements, and they have Jack Nicholson doing it and you stop and listen every time it starts. You know it's very effective and I'm sure and I'm sure Scarlett, I'm sure Scarlett Johansson would do a good job too. Dean: Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, it's so, it's so funny. I mean, that seems. I'm just dumbfounded by the fact that productivity has decreased in the 50 years that we're talking about here. Dan: Yeah Well, think of the 50 years, though, and you gave me that great book. Dean: Yeah, you gave me the book that was 1900 to 1950, 1925. Dan: But 1925 to 1975, the entire country was being electrified. They're laying in lines and everybody was the farm that I was on. I was born in 1944. That farm was electrified in 1928. So it was only 16 years that they had electricity. Right, and you know they were putting in the entire water systems. The Tennessee Valley Authority was putting in all these dams and the electric plants. You know Lake Mead as a result of the Hoover Dam. They were putting in all those dams and that just produced enormous jumps and the cars were going in, the gas systems, all the infrastructure for gasoline was going in. It was just a monstrously productive period of time. And then all the production that went into the second world war, which they then had as productive capability after the war stopped and so they had all the manufacturing capabilities you know and you know and so. But there's to see the thing is, the real jump that's happened is the jump in computing. There's no question. Dean: There's been a monstrous jump. Dan: It's a billion times since 1970. It's a billion times. That doesn't translate into money, and money is what productivity is based on. How much more money are you making per hour of human labor? How much more money are you making for our human labor? Now maybe somebody will say well, we got to start counting the robots in our GDP. Something is doing work. Yeah, Just I mean wow, wow, wow, the only problem with you know the only thing about robots, though they're shitty consumers. Dean: Yes, exactly that's so funny. Yeah, they don't buy anything you know. Dan: Yeah, A computer is a good worker, you know. It doesn't take breaks, doesn't get sick you know doesn't form unions anything. You know it doesn't go home, it doesn't have a house, doesn't have furnishings doesn't need furniture doesn't go out to eat. Dean: Right, right. We're definitely in a stage right now where there's opportunities more than ever for economic alchemy, creating money out of nothing, seemingly compared to 1975. I'm not sure how that happened, I think, since in the digital world we're essentially creating money out of ether, you know, out of attention, even in a way that if we just take the attention economy or the portion of the money that is derived from the advertising world in, where it was print ads, television ads, radio ads those were things that were kind of happening in 19, right and, but they were selling sort of physical goods, whereas now I remember having a conversation with Eben Pagan about this, when I did a book Stop your Divorce in 1998, when it was when PDFs were just coming to be a thing where you could create a digital document that didn't require printing a physical book and you could email that or somebody could download it. And I just realized that you know, in that we've literally sold $5 million of a picture of a book not physically printing. These thousands and thousands of books, it's literally no zero physical good. That's why I wondered about whether the GDP is only measuring you, because we're definitely in a time where you can create money from nothing and the way that was driven was from Google AdWords. Dan: You can't create anything from nothing. No, I mean nothing physical, any. You can't create any. I don't think you can create anything from nothing there. No, I mean okay, nothing physical. Okay, that's what I mean. Dean: Yeah, like you look at it, that the book, you know we created the book and turned it into a pdf that was put on a website that there's no physical manifestation of it's, only digital. You can only see it online. People would search on Google for save my marriage or how to stop a divorce, or any of the keywords we could magically get in front of those people on their screen. They could click oh, stop your divorce, how do I do that? They click on that. They read this digital. It didn't cost anything other than what was paid for was that we paid google for the, you know, for sending that, you know the ability to display that person, that opportunity to somebody. We paid google every time somebody clicked on that ad and then they would buy the book and it would automatically take them to a page to download the book. There was no inter, no human interaction and no physical exchange. It was all 100 digital and that was where, you know, I started referring to that as alchemy, really like creating money out of of bits. You know, yeah, yeah, that's so that. Dan: Yeah, I think there's no I think there's uh no question that we've moved into a what I call a non-tangible realm of creating value, creating property and everything else, but at the end of the day it all adds up somewhere where this constitutes an economic transaction and as far as the accountants care, they don't care whether it was something physical or sold or everything. There's taxes that are taken out of that. I don't see the remarkable difference. You're using a different medium, but there is work that goes into that. And you had a big payoff with one, but there were another thousand people right at the same time you were doing that and their results? They put in a lot of work, they put in a lot of effort and it didn't produce any money whatsoever. Efforts go into GDP, your efforts go into GDP and there's way more of them than there is of you. So it brings you the overall results down and you know so and we kind of know. We kind of know that. You know productivity numbers. You know, like, on a year I know people talk about well, that productivity is going to go up by 20% as a result of that. Well, that may be true for a single company, but that's not true for the industry they're in, because their new thing going up by 20% may actually make obsolete 5 or 6 or 20 other companies who have had productivity that a year before, but now they have no productivity at all. So their loss of productivity is balanced against the gain of productivity. Dean: Yeah, that's interesting. I guess you think about that. That could be true in all the casualties of the digital transition here, right Like, what do you look at? Dan: Well, certainly the advertising world, certainly the advertising world, I mean before Mark Zuckerberg and before Google, newspapers like the New York Times. Dean: Daily. Dan: Edition was very thick. Dean: Yeah. Dan: And half of it was advertising. Now it's very thin okay because, they don't have the same. Yeah, but there's winners and losers, you know, in this, and you have a technological breakthrough, you have far more losers than you do winners. Dean: Yeah, I'm looking at like I was just listening to an interview with that Tucker Carlson did with someone I forget who, some former CBS correspondent you know, and they were talking about the new. You know what's really changed now is the reach capabilities you know, like Tucker really primarily being on his own platform but using the reach of x has, you know it's the audience is accessible to everybody, as opposed to him in the beginning of their careers, the only way to get reach was to be signed to a, a digital, or assigned to a traditional network where the eyeballs were. But, now the eyeballs are accessible to everybody and it really becomes these are my words, but it's more of a meritocracy in a way that you're you know that it's available for everybody. The cream definitely can rise to the top if you've got a voice that people resonate with. Dean: Yeah, I mean, and Tucker's a star, tucker's a star. He's got his following, he's got probably a couple million followers. Whatever he was big when he was on Fox and he had the top numbers on Fox and everything like that, but there aren't two of them. Dean: Right, and you can't replace him with an AI either. Dean: No, but what I mean is we pick out the winners. It takes a lot of losers to get to a winner, you know and I think this is more extreme in the Cloudlandia world than it is in the physical world- you know. I mean, I think there's a thing called network effect and the network effect is you can only have one Amazon. Basically, you can only have one Amazon. Because, the nature of Amazon is to suck everybody's customers up into one destination. There aren't five Amazons competing with each other, and that's what digital does. A person like Taylor Swift couldn't have existed 20 years ago. They wouldn't have had the reach. Yeah, that's true, and she's got the reach today. I mean she's coming along and she's got a lot of things going for her. She's very attractive, she's very productive, she pumps out songs all the time and the songs seem to resonate with a mood in the public right now. And everybody's got their cell phones and everybody's got that. And what I'm saying is, if you have one Taylor Swift, you can't have two. Well, yeah, that's. Dean: I mean it's, I wonder you start to see that she's just a, she's one voice, right Like I look at, I've been following rabbit holes like up the chain. You know and I start so Taylor Swift is a good example that many of her biggest hits and biggest success have been in collaboration with Max Martin, who is a producer who I often talk about and refer. Second, he's got the second biggest number of number one songs to his credit, right behind. He just passed Paul McCartney or John Lennon, and only Paul McCartney is ahead of him. Now he's about five songs behind Paul McCartney. What I realized is, you know, there's a way that it's kind of like you get max martin's voice is really what is, you know, behind most of the the most popular music, or much of the most popular music, and yet not many people could pick him out of a lineup. And then then I went another layer up. It just dawned on me, like in the last couple of weeks here, that the real catalyst to Max Martin's success was Clive Davis. Who is? Do you know who? Clive Davis is the former, or still, record executive. Dean: He was the head of so far, your records so far. So far, you're introducing me to a lot of new people. Dan: Okay, great well, I, I just love this that. You know, max martin, I've been saying, as that's the thing, like you think about one thing Max Martin's one thing has been making hit records. Right, that's all he's done. Making pop songs since 1996, or what is first number one. But if you trace it all the way back, the catalyst to it because he was in Sweden, there was a group years ago called Ace of Bass and they had a number one song. But when you go all the way back to how that happened, it was because Clive Davis, who was the head of Columbia Records and all its subsidiaries, arista and Jay Records, and all its subsidiaries, arista and J Records and all of these things, he found that song. He's like a guesser and better. He was guessing that song is going to be a hit and he signed Ace of Base to bring them to America. So he plucked this obscure Swedish band out of and brought them to America and on the wave of that, created the opportunity for Max Martin to work with all these great artists that happened to be under the direction of Clive Davis. And if you go even one layer beyond that, the guy that owns Bertelsmann, you know G Music Group in Germany. They own almost all the record labels, kind of thing. It's him seeing Clive Davis and putting up a million dollars for Clive Davis to start this record label. It's amazing that it all, kind of you know, goes back to capital allocation. Dean: But the big thing is none of that has to do with any productivity. Dan: Yeah, that's the thing I wonder, you know, I mean that really. Dean: No, well, what you're talking about is. You mentioned a name. Yes, and he does this and he's very successful and he's famous for being successful. But at the same time that he was doing what he was doing, there were 9,999 who were waiting on tables and doing this on weekends and nights, yeah, okay, and they weren't making any money at all. So what. I'm saying is when you pick a winner out and you see, see how productive they are using new technology you also have to account for the people who are using the new technology and not making any money at all, and therefore it's not more productive. Yeah. Dan: Yeah. Dean: And I mean, you know we haven't talked about him for a while, Mr Beast. Yeah, and people say, see what you can do when you're 18? You won't see anything because he's so unique. And he has such a set of circumstances that there's nothing that he does that is repeatable by another person. Dan: I mean, yeah, he just became just in the last, I haven't heard anything about him. Dean: Is he still doing stuff? I don't know. Is he still doing stuff? I don't know. Is he still doing stuff? Yeah, yeah, he just became. Or is he retired at 28? Dan: No full steam ahead. Dean: He's got a 300-foot. Dan: He just became the number one subscribed channel in the world. He was the number one individual but there was this T-Series channel in India, which wasn't a person a different thing. Now he's the number one thing. He's now working on an Amazon show. He's taking his stuff to to amazon still full steam ahead with his, with his videos, but he's doing a big game show series in uh with under the amazon banner yeah, yeah, yeah. Dean: it's really interesting because you know again I go back that it seems to me that a lot you know and I've made this statement before is that a new technology comes out, or a new form of a new technology comes out. A whole series of people say I'm going to create a new company based on this technology and I want you know, I need some early investors. I need investors to get there, and so there's a whole industry for doing that in Silicon Valley and other places, and so billions are raised, not just for the one you know, not one investment, but for let's say 50 investments. And none of them go anywhere, none of them go anywhere. Dan: You know, nothing happens, okay, but people did make money because it's based on a Ponzi scheme kind of thing that the early investors get paid out by the late investors who end up pulling nothing and everything else. Dean: None of that represents productivity. Right A lot of action, a lot of excitement, a lot of money, but no productivity. And we're seeing that with AI. Goldman Sachs, the big investment bank, came out that, going on two years since open AI, we just don't see that there's any money to be made with this, except if you're like the chip maker, NVIDIA. They make a lot of money and they're very productive, and I think the reason is that I think that AI, if I look at the next 10 years, I think it's going to be very effective, it's going to be very useful and it's going to be very important for solving complexity problems that we already have on the planet. Okay, and you know, a great example is just large city congestion complexity, like Toronto, I think, may have the worst traffic congestion in North America. Dan: I did notice a big difference in that, even in the five years since I was there. Dean: Yeah. And the main reason is that they're making new cars, but they're not making new roads. Dan: Yeah, and I noticed that they've actually added a lot of bike lanes too, which have taken out some of the actual lanes. Dean: Yeah, Actual lanes, yeah, yeah, so without some new kind of solution to congestion and I think AI is the perfect tool for this and that all the traffic lights, all the traffic lights in the city are a single system and you're just changing the frequency of the lights changing and everything around the car changing the frequency of the lights changing and everything around the country, and there's a sort of a master view, how you know you can reduce the amount of people just stuck in the city by 40% if we just get all the lights. That's a complexity problem. Dan: You know and for example. Dean: The other thing is they haven't. You know, for all. The study of weather is probably the most complex system that we have on the planet and to this day they have no notion what effect clouds have on climate. You know they don't. They really. Clouds are just very complex. So if you had the ability to, I mean, they know different types of clouds and different things that happen when you have different types of clouds. They know that, but there's no unification of their understanding of the cloud system. And so you'd have to apply it to that. Now, you're not creating anything new with this. You're solving an existing problem. With this, you're solving an existing problem. My sense is that the best use of technology is always to solve some problem that you already have not create a new opportunity that's interesting. Dan: So maybe that's how I mean yeah, go ahead. I was just saying maybe that's how I should be thinking about my relationship with juniper yeah, what? Dean:what complexity problems do you have? Dan: Exactly what complexity problems do I already have that Juniper could solve for me? Dean: Yeah, like getting out of bed in the morning. That's a complexity problem. When does my first coffee arrive? Exactly yeah, why am I still thinking about this? Why at this late date. Dan: Oh man, that is so funny. Dean: It is funny. Dan: The funny thing is I posted up on Facebook right before we got on our podcast today. I took a picture of my. I have these. I have these Four Seasons Valhalla coffee cups and I took a. I made a coffee before our here and I posted up a picture of it right Pre-podcast caffeination, prior to the prior to our podcast here. So I'm fully caffeinated. I'm on the, I'm on the juice. Dean: Yeah, I will tell you this. Chris Johnson, great thinker in the FreeZone program he's got it's not his system, he's licensed his system from someone else but he had 32 callers to set up meetings with their primary salespeople for his company and he's in the placement business. He finds really good high-level people to go into construction companies and engineering companies. And he was telling us that his 32 human callers could make 5,500 phone calls and produce a certain result in a day of phoning. And since he's brought in his AI system, they can do 5,500 in an hour and produce a better result of people agreeing to phone calls. Well, that's productivity. Dan: Yeah, I guess. So yeah, pretty amazing huh. Dean: And he let go his 32 humans. Oh, my goodness. Wow, so this is AI making outbound phone calls? These are all AI and they've got complete voice capability of responding to responses and everything else. And then they get better every day. They have sort of upgrades every day for it. And that's productivity, that's productivity. Dan: Yeah, there's, yeah, that's a. That's an amazing story. An amazing story, I mean, you start to see, I just look at the things, even when we had the AI panel at FreeZone in Palm Beach. You're just seeing the things, even what Mike Kamix is able to create and the things that Lior is doing. You just think, man. Dean: I think we're early. Dan: Yeah, absolutely, we're early. Dean: Yeah, I mean I think we're in the first or second year of the internet with us, right? Dan: Exactly, I agree. That's why I say, that's why, in my summation here, I'm kind of thinking you know 2025, give it another 18 months. It's only 18 months old now when you really think about it. Right, this is it's 18 months, and give it another 18 months and we'll see that people you're already starting to see that people are taking the AI capabilities and they're honing it into an interface. That is, a logo maker, for instance, or AI. You know that it's already honed into the ability to specialize in making logos based on your prompts, or and I think that's where that's what I meant by the interface moment is people are going to start carving out, packaging very specific outcomes from the capabilities. Like, if we have these capabilities, what can we do and just deliver that specific outcome, rather than the capability to create that outcome that's why it's funny that that's kind of parallel to what I've been saying. I've seen people that are taking and training large language models based on your you know, all of the you know let's call it all the Dan Sullivan content that's been out there and then touting it as you know, having Dan Sullivan in your pocket, that you can ask Dan anything of it in your pocket, that you can ask Dan anything. But I think the ability to ask you anything isn't as useful as the ability to have Dan ask you things. Yes, I think that's the question. Dean: So in the last quarterly book, and the one we're finishing right now. So it was everything is created backward, where the tool we featured was the triple play, and then the next one is called casting, not hiring, where the tool is the four by four casting tool. We call it the four by four casting tool, and this is where I'm asking them questions. Dan: Right, okay. Dean: I don't see any value whatsoever of them asking me questions. Dan: Right. Dean: Because I'm not getting the benefit of the question. Some software program is handling it, so I'm not learning anything and I've got a rule that I don't involve myself in any activity where I don't learn something new. Dan: Okay. Dean: So there's getting the benefits, but plus we'd be competing with ourselves. Dan: I love it All, right Well off, we go. Dean: I will phone you next week I'll be at the cottage. I'll be looking out at a mystic blue lake while I'm talking. Dan: Oh, wow. Dean: It's really good yeah. Dan: Awesome. Well, have a great week, okay, and I'll talk to you next week. Thanks, thanks, dan. Bye.

The TVA has been tackling some of the South's biggest problems since 1933. What started as a solution to poverty, flooding, and depleted farmlands now works on nuclear power and clean energy. In this episode, Joe Hoagland joins us in the studio to discuss how the TVA got started, what it's doing now, and where it's going in the future. We delve into TVA's current energy portfolio, future small modular reactors, and economic development. Joe also discusses the push for nuclear leadership in Tennessee, grid capacity challenges, and the importance of engaging future generations in STEM to support the growing energy sector.     About Joe Hoagland Joe Hoagland is the Tennessee Valley Authority's Vice President of Innovation and Research. He earned his  BS in Chemistry from Southern Utah University and an MS and PhD in Physical Chemistry from Washington State University. Joe has been with TVA since 1993, spearheading numerous key initiatives. He is also the Chair of Tennessee's Energy Policy Council, an adjunct professor at the Howard Baker School at the University of Tennessee, and serves on the board of directors for the American Museum of Science and Energy Foundation.     Show Highlights (0:35) Introducing Joe Hoagland (1:37) When TVA was created, what area it covers, and its primary missions (6:31) TVA's current energy portfolio percentages and how it's changing (9:51) The amount of electricity TVA distributes every year and how it gets to consumers (13:15) Understanding the TVA flood control system (17:19) The TVA's focus on economic development (20:07) Joe Hoagland's role as Chair of the Tennessee State Energy Policy Council (25:03) How energy storage systems are changing (29:16) Energy disruptors the TVA currently faces (37:39) Engaging this and future generations in STEM to be part of the growing energy sector

Jeff Lyash grew up in a small coal mining town and decided to follow in his grandfathers' footsteps, never imagining that his path would lead him to become CEO of the largest public power company in the United States.   In this episode, Jeff shares which three qualities he implements every day for success, why everyone should be fearless about change, and how if you identify the biggest problems and make a contribution… things will generally work out.    Jeff Lyash is the President and CEO of the Tennessee Valley Authority. You can learn more about Jeff on the TVA website (tva.com/about-tva/our-leadership/our-executive-leadership/jeffrey-(jeff)-j.-lyash)   My Morning Cup is hosted by Mike Costa of Costa Media Advisors and produced by SpeakEasy Productions. Subscribe to our new weekly newsletter here.   If you liked this episode, we think you'll also like: Matt Rasmussen's Morning Cup (E57) Jacinda Woodward's Morning Cup (E70) Christian Höferle's Morning Cup (E76)

Dr. Joanne BallardJoanne has a PhD in Geography from the University of Tennessee with specializations in Biogeography and Quaternary Environments, advised by Dr Sally Horn, palynologist.  She has a M.S. in Geology from the University of Cincinnati, studying under glaciologist Dr. Thomas Lowell.  She has also worked as an Archaeologist for the Tennessee Valley Authority as a Database Analyst and Mapping expert.  In addition, Joanne worked for the US Census Bureau as an Analyst and Cartographic Technician, giving technical support, troubleshooting, and training personnel on addressing projects.  Currently, Joanne is serving as a Naturalist at a local museum, and working with Czech colleagues on YDB research led by Dr. Evzen Stuchlik at the Czech Academy of the Sciences.  Joanne is a catastrophist, and collaborates with the Comet Research Group.Joanne has been intrigued with the causation for the megafauna extinction since the 1990s.  She met Rick Firestone at the Mammoth Conference in 2005 at Hot Springs, SD.  When he and others presented their hypothesis on a bolide strike as causation for the Younger Dryas onset (Firestone et al. 2007), she wanted to look for evidence. Lake mud contains various proxies that help us gain insights into past environments, such as charcoal (wildfires), pollen and macrofossils (vegetation), diatoms, chironomids (climate) and chemistry--isotopes and elements. Lake mud is considered less disturbed (such as by roots, earthworms, freeze/thaw) than terrestrial sediment or soil.  At UC, she and her team drilled through the ice to collect cores from four lakes near Flint, Michigan, two of which (Slack and Swift Lakes) are adjacent to the Gainey archaeological site mentioned by Firestone et al. (2007).  At UT, she studied lake sediments from sites in the southeastern USA.   She discovered a new proxy for wildfires--possibly catastrophic wildfires--which are siliceous aggregates. These form in wood ash.  After a tree burns to ash, the silica phytoliths that were part of the structure of the tree are deposited with the wood ash. When that highly alkaline ash gets wet, it causes the phytoliths to dissolve, and the silica gel percolates down through the ash and then hardens up around silt or other particles in the sediment.  Five of six lakes sampled across eastern North America showed siliceous aggregates around the time of the onset of the Younger Dryas, suggesting widespread, catastrophic wildfires.  However, more work needs to be done to support this interpretation.Joanne has also researched Usselo Horizon sites (typically YDB-age black mats) in The Netherlands and Belgium to understand the events that triggered the onset of the Younger Dryas (12,900 - 11,600 BP).  At four Usselo horizon sites across the NL and BE, she found fused quartz, soot, charcoal, melt glass and sponge spicules.See her PPT presentation "Usselo Horizon Presentation" here:https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Joanne-Ballard/researchDid humans tame woolly mammoths?  See the discussion here with 821 postshttps://www.researchgate.net/topicshttps://www.researchgate.net/post/Did-humans-tame-woolly-mammoths-or-other-megafaunaJoanne's dissertation can be accessed and downloaded for free here:https://trace.tennessee.edu/utk_graddiss/3492/Evidence of Late Quaternary Fires from Charcoal and Siliceous Aggregates in Lake Sediments in the Eastern U.S.A.Her MS thesis can be accessed for free here: https://etd.ohiolink.edu/acprod/odb_etd/etd/r/1501/10?clear=10&p10_accession_num=ucin1250268463A Lateglacial Paleofire Record for East-central MichiganRick Firestone's paper:https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.0706977104    Evidence for an extraterrestrial impact 12,900 years ago that contributed to the megafaunal extinctions and the Younger Dryas cooling-- Sent with Tuta; enjoy secure & ad-free emails: https://tuta.comBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/earth-ancients--2790919/support.

In this episode of Where Public Finance Works, we explore the dynamic operations at JEA with Randall Barnes, the Treasurer who has been steering the financial helm since August 2022. Randall's journey from a small town in East Tennessee to managing billions in Jacksonville's public utilities is a testament to his dedication and expertise in the public finance sector. Host Tyler Traudt breaks down Randall's role, from overseeing debt management and cash forecasting to maintaining strong relationships with rating agencies. Randall shares insights into JEA's financial strategies, including the complexities of electricity generation and distribution, hedging gas prices, and ensuring operational efficiency. He speaks on the importance of simplicity in financial planning and the critical role of process improvements and staff education in achieving long-term strategic goals. Listeners will gain an understanding of how JEA operates as a community-owned utility, balancing the need to provide reliable and affordable services while supporting economic growth in Jacksonville. Randall also highlights the significant efforts made during the COVID-19 pandemic to support the local community, including innovative financial programs and robust disaster preparedness plans for hurricane season. Join us for an inside look at how Randall and his team at JEA navigate the challenges of public finance, making a meaningful impact on the community they serve. Featured Guest Randall Barnes is the Treasurer at JEA. His extensive career began with an MBA in Management Information Systems and a B.S. in Marketing from Tennessee Technological University. Randall's career includes over 16 years at the Tennessee Valley Authority, where he held positions such as Senior Program Manager for Corporate Investments and Finance, and Senior Securities Analyst. In 2015, he joined the City of Jacksonville as Senior Debt Manager and later advanced to Assistant Treasurer and Treasurer. Since August 2022, Randall has served as the Treasurer at JEA in Jacksonville, Florida. He oversees an array of financial functions, including treasury operations, debt management, investments, rating agency communications, cash forecasting, and more. Episode Resources Cash Flow Forecasting Template Cash Position Worksheet The Latest on the FDTA

This week on the Stories podcast, we tell the story of two Appalachian towns, Royston and Butler, that were submerged beneath TVA lakes but refused to disappear. Join Steve Gilly and Rod Mullins as they recount the fascinating tales of these communities that were dramatically transformed by the Tennessee Valley Authority. Listen to the audio version of the Stories podcast on Spreaker, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or your favorite podcast platform. Don't forget to subscribe on YouTube for more tales from the heart of Appalachia.You can also support our storytelling journey and access exclusive content by becoming a patron on Spreaker here:https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/stories-of-appalachia--5553692/supportThanks for listening and for sharing our stories with your friends!

For our June episode, co-hosts Ted Stank and Tom Goldsby speak with University of Tennessee colleagues Joe Buckley executive education director for supply chain management, and Dan Pellathy, assistant professor of practice for SCM.  Buckley, who spent three decades in industry (including seven years as director of materials management and transportation for the Tennessee Valley Authority), is the mastermind behind UT's highly acclaimed virtual learning academies. After the success of the Leadership and Finance academies, he and Pellathy collaborated on the Planning academy launching Fall 2024 and are working on a Procurement academy for 2025. More than 1,500 students, ranging from managers to VPs, across every industry have participated since the first Leadership academy was launched three years ago. In this conversation, they discuss talent development efforts, the mid-level manager crunch, pairing hard- and soft-skill development for emerging leaders, delivering education flexibly and in digestible forms for busy professionals, and more.  Ted and Tom also talk about the reopening of the Port of Baltimore, the Container Port Performance Index Global Ranking of Container Ports, labor scarcity and automation, and more.  The episode was recorded virtually on June 11, 2024. Related links: Baltimore's busy port fully reopens after bridge collapse The Port of Charleston (53) is the top U.S.-ranked port, ahead of Philadelphia (55), Miami (74), and Boston (75), in CPPI's 2023 rankings Potential strikes at East Coast and Gulf ports threaten further disruption Sudden container crunch sends ocean freight rates soaring Understanding America's labor shortage: state-by-state analysis Tom Goldsby on the Dynamo Future of Supply Chain podcast discussing the complexities of global trade and logistics Learn more about SCM Talent Development programs at UT Download (free) Dan Pellathy's white paper on supply chain planning talent development and leadership Become a Supply Chain Forum member Subscribe to GSCI's monthly newsletter Read the latest news and insights from GSCI 

Tracy O'Neill of "Preserve Cheatham County" joins to talk about their fight against the Tennessee Valley Authority, which is poised to put a methane gas plant in their community against their wishes. --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/tennessee-holler/message

The demands in the current student protests against Israel's response to Hamas echo the anti-Apartheid demonstrations of the 1980s, but the reaction so far is quite different. Plus the local news for May 9, 2024 and we hear from people concerned about the health impacts of the Tennessee Valley Authority's plans for electricity production.   Credits: This is a production of Nashville Public Radio Host/producer: Nina Cardona Editor: Miriam Kramer Additional support: Mack Linebaugh, Tony Gonzalez, Rachel Iacovone, LaTonya Turner and the staff of WPLN and WNXP

You may or may not be aware of ARC. This is an organization that for many years has championed the lives, rights and welfare of persons with Intellectual and developmental disabilities. One of the main funding sources for ARC is its thrift stores. Not only do these stores provide a revenue source, but they also provide employment for many persons with all kinds of disabilities.   Our guest, Lloyd Lewis is the CEO of the ARC Colorado Thrift Stores. For the past 18 years he has grown the Colorado network from approximately $2 million to a large operation employing several hundred persons and greatly helping to financially support the activities of ARC.   My conversation with Lloyd is far ranging and quite informative. We talk a lot about the broad subjects of disabilities including the myths and fears promulgated within society. Lloyd offers some keen observations on how we can and should work to make society more inclusive. Lloyd's education and earlier business and legal background afford him a unique and strong skill set for the job he does today. I think you will find our conversation well worth your time.     About the Guest:   Lloyd Lewis is the CEO of the Arc Thrift Stores of Colorado, one of Colorado's largest nonprofits, employers of persons with intellectual and developmental disabilities, and relief organizations. Under Lewis' tenure, Arc Thrift has funded over $250 million to nonprofit causes and charities since 2005.   Lewis is a passionate champion on a crusade to promote a new way to think about inclusion and diversity.   Lewis the recipient of a Civil Rights Award and received the World Citizenship Award from the International Civitans, an honor that has included such noted past winners as England's Prime Minister Winston Churchill and Eunice Shriver, the founder of Special Olympics.   Lewis sits on the board of The Arc of the United States Foundation and is treasurer of Inclusion International, a worldwide organization advocating for people with intellectual and developmental disabilities, with members in over 100 countries.   Lewis has a 19-year-old son with Down syndrome.   He is the author of Why Not Them? a book about how his life was transformed by the birth of his son. In it, Lewis hopes to change the way our communities think about, connect with, and employee people with disabilities.   Why Not Them? is about a purpose-driven organization, arc Thrift Stores, whose mission is the success and inclusion of all of its employees, regardless of their abilities. It's about opening doors, challenging the way we do business, and touching hearts and minds.   Written from the perspective of a father and a businessman, it asks us all to join in the fight for inclusion and understanding. It is educational and moving and challenges us – as individuals and as a community – to perhaps look at the world just a little bit differently. ** ** Ways to connect with Dr.Jonathan :    https://lloydlewis.net/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lewislloyd/     About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app.   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.     Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, hi, everyone, and welcome to another edition of unstoppable mindset where inclusion and diversity in the unexpected meet. And we get to talk today about inclusion and diversity. And if we're not, we may hit the unexpected as well, which is anything except inclusion and diversity. But our guest today is Lloyd Lewis, who is the CEO of the ark, Colorado thrift stores. And we're going to talk about ark and the thrift stores and everything else under the sun and why he's doing it and all that. So I'm not going to talk much, because that's his job. So Lloyd, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here, Michael.   Lloyd Lewis ** 02:00 It's great to be with you. And I really appreciate our opportunity to get to know each other and have a conversation. Looking   Michael Hingson ** 02:06 forward to it. Now we're in Colorado, are you?   Lloyd Lewis ** 02:10 We're actually I have stores across Colorado, from Fort Collins in the North Pole in the south across what we call our front range. And also on our western slope. My company is headquartered in Lakewood, Colorado, which is just a little bit southeast of Denver. Okay, we are all across the state. I   Michael Hingson ** 02:31 get to be in Littleton in May for the board meeting of the Colorado Center for the Blind and Littleton.   Lloyd Lewis ** 02:37 Oh, nice. Very cool. Yeah, Littleton is isn't as the city very near to us where we have a store and a very successful operation. And it's a wonderful city. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 02:49 I'm going to have to make sure that when we're going to be there that maybe we can at least meet in person. That   Lloyd Lewis ** 02:58 would be great. Please let me know when you're here.   Michael Hingson ** 03:01 I will. I don't remember the date. But I think it's around the ninth of may. But I'll let you know.   Lloyd Lewis ** 03:06 Maybe we could meet at my warehouse. We have a lot of wonderful blind call center agents there with adapted software. They do an amazing job for us. And I think they would appreciate getting an opportunity to meet you and and get to know you a little bit.   Michael Hingson ** 03:22 I may just stay an extra day or come in a day early to do that.   Lloyd Lewis ** 03:26 That'd be very cool. Very well. In any case, why   Michael Hingson ** 03:29 don't we start with you if you would tell us maybe about kind of the early Lloyd growing up and all that. Yeah, the   Lloyd Lewis ** 03:36 early Lloyd grew up in Tacoma, Washington. And I have a lot of family there. And the early Lloyd moved around a bit. California bit Bakersfield, high point North Carolina and Oklahoma City. And I had a stepfather who was doing transfers as a FAA controller. And I grew up, you know, doing well in school and playing sports. And really appreciate where I grew up, where we can see Mount Rainier from my backyard. And we had covered playgrounds because it rained all the time. Not like the kind of rain you're getting now. But it rained a lot in Washington and I actually like rain if it's the appropriate level. Not the LA rain you got right now but I've always found it refreshing. You had some snow this year. We've had a lot of snow this year. And we had that this past weekend. We were expecting a couple inches we got eight or nine inches. And we're having better weather right now as we're speaking. But this weekend, we could get even more so it's you know, I just wish we weren't getting so much of this because it interferes with my stores. If the roads aren't drivable people aren't likely to be out On the road, visiting my stores. So hopefully it'll be milder than what they're predicting right now.   Michael Hingson ** 05:08 Just for a point of reference, we're recording this on February 6 2024. So that's why we're talking about rain and snow and everything else. And typically, a lot of the weather that starts out in California does go East and elsewhere. So it's probably going to be a follow up to the storm that we have here that that you get. But it's a very slow moving storm. And that's why it's been so crazy out here, because we've had so much rain since it's just stayed over us and dumped a lot of moisture.   Lloyd Lewis ** 05:40 We see it on the news media, and it's very, you know, concerning. It's a lot of damage there. And power outages. And, you know, we in Colorado, we are, you know, sorry, this is the experience that you are having. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 05:56 well, and we will we will deal with it, which is cool. But at least we can and the cities and the government is doing their best to try to keep up with it all.   Lloyd Lewis ** 06:06 Well, I hope they can.   Michael Hingson ** 06:07 I hope. So. You did you go to college in in Colorado, or   Lloyd Lewis ** 06:13 I did not I ended up going to undergrad at the University of Oklahoma, in Norman, Oklahoma, and got a degree in political science.   Michael Hingson ** 06:23 Now, why did you go there as opposed to sign close? And I was   Lloyd Lewis ** 06:27 I was in high school at the time there. My stepfather had transferred Oklahoma City because he was teaching at the FAA Academy which is located. Yes. And then when it came time to do my undergrad. I had some counselors who thought I should attend an IV instead, I followed my friends to Norman, Oklahoma. And that was my undergraduate education.   Michael Hingson ** 06:53 Then what did you do? Then   Lloyd Lewis ** 06:55 I followed a girlfriend out to Massachusetts. From there, I did a paralegal training program in Atlanta, then hired at the Tennessee Valley Authority in Knoxville, where I spent a few years as a paralegal and applying for a paralegal job with an investment firm in Philadelphia, because I'd never been in the big city in the Northeast. And I ended up prior to grad school, being a municipal investment banker working on municipal financing projects, ultimately with Smith Barney, which Wow, fairly prominent firm at the time. Yes.   Michael Hingson ** 07:33 Did girlfriend follow you around or?   Lloyd Lewis ** 07:36 No, she that didn't work. He did her own thing. She actually she's done quite well. She went to do a PhD at Princeton and English, and became a professor at the University of Mississippi in a very successful career.   Michael Hingson ** 07:51 That's great. So did you ever find another girlfriend that took?   Lloyd Lewis ** 07:57 I did? Oh, good. Okay, I found a few. And then from Philadelphia, we thought the 1986 tax bill would disrupt our industry. So I took the Graduate Management Admission Test the GMAT application test for business school, I got admitted to Duke to Michigan to some other schools and Oh, my word and versity of Chicago. Which is, you know, considered, I guess, the best business school in America, per US News rankings. And I did an MBA graduate in 88, with a specialty in finance. It came out to Colorado in Boulder with IBM, as a senior financial analyst in their executive training program, and from there did a series of companies. I was director of finance for publicly traded medical equipment company. I was a CFO for high tech ultimately sold to micron. And then in 2003, my world changed. I had a little boy born with Down syndrome, whose name   Michael Hingson ** 09:07 I'm sorry, his name again. Kennedy.   Lloyd Lewis ** 09:11 Okay, and I got involved in scientific research advocacy. I met a neuroscientist at the University of Colorado working in that arena. And we partnered up and advocated at CU University Colorado across the country to try to get more funding for Down syndrome research at the time. It really didn't receive much funding and met a philanthropist daughter, whose father had founded stars encore she has a little girl my son's age with Down syndrome. We partnered up and ultimately that family created what's now the largest world's largest Down Syndrome research facility. The Linda cernik Institute named for the neuroscientist that I met and worked with initially on advocacy. My whole world changed with the birth of my son candidate What?   Michael Hingson ** 10:00 What caused you to really decide to make that change and go away from being a financial analyst and being very successful in the corporate world to clearly something else, just just because of his birth? Or did things happen that changed your life or when   Lloyd Lewis ** 10:17 he was born? You know, a lot of parents if they have a child with Down syndrome, you know, surprise them at birth, they might get anxious or depressed or angry or concerned. For whatever reason, none of that occurred to me, I just thought he was great would always be great. And I immediately thought about trying to help Kennedy, because people with Down Syndrome and intellectual disabilities have a lot of challenges and obstacles. So I went to a personal development seminar. I announced my goal in life was to raise $25 million in Down Syndrome research and Everyone applauded. And when I got down from the podium with that, holy smokes, I don't have money, I don't know anybody with money. And ultimately, the philanthropist daughter that I met, that family created the world's largest Down Syndrome Research Institute gifted with 32 million from that family believer in pointing the bat to centerfield, and, you know, shooting for the moon during the moon shot. And a few years later, unfortunately, the neuroscientist who was my friend and partner passed away from an aneurysm I took was my best friend at the time, I took a hiatus from Down Syndrome research, and was recruited to our by a friend that I had at IBM, and I joined arc, Mio five as CFO. Why? Well, I thought I could take my business skills and help create funding programs that would help people like my son.   Michael Hingson ** 11:56 So tell me more about Ark. So where it came from, what it is, and so on, if you would. Ark   Lloyd Lewis ** 12:03 thrift stores was created in 1968. To find Ark advocate chapters, who helped people with intellectual disabilities by jobs, housing, medical services, services and schools, affiliated with the Ark United States, the ark in the United States was the first parent organization during the 1940s, to advocate for humane treatment in large institutions where people like my son were being abused. And had my son been born in the 1940s. We would have been told, send him to Tunis, and forget about him, he won't walk or talk, tell people he died, don't tell people about him. But the Ark United States set about trying to create more humane conditions in these large institutions followed by deinstitutionalization advocacy, mainstreaming inclusion, public education, people like my son now live with their families, they participate in their communities. And the arcade United States with chapters all across the country, one of the top 10 charities in America does direct services and advocacy all across the United States, including advocacy in DC, with Congress and people, you know, important departments of the US government. So the art chapters of Colorado, all across Colorado, 15 art chapters, work with 1000s and 1000s of families and kids and adults. And again, try to help them achieve goals that, you know, a lot of us take for granted. How to find this job, how to find a place to live, you know, how to get your medical needs cared for, you know, how to be treated with respect in schools. And in our world, as as much progress has been made. You know, just through inclusion, people like my son have gained, on average 20 IQ points going from severe to mild impairment, moderate impairment to moderate to mild impairment. But still, there are tremendous challenges. 80% of people with intellectual dis 80% of women with intellectual disabilities will be abused. 40% multiple times 40% of men. There's an 80% unemployment rate for people with intellectual disabilities, the highest in the country. There's extreme shortage of housing and supports, there's a higher need for medical care. schools still have segregated classrooms for people with intellectual disabilities. So a lot of progress has been made, but there's a lot of progress yet to be made that the arcs are working.   Michael Hingson ** 14:54 Now is arc today an acronym for something. Now   Lloyd Lewis ** 14:57 it's no longer an acronym. Back in a Yeah, the word retarded, which is never used was actually an improvement over previous descriptions like Mongoloid ism, etc. It's no longer acceptable, right? It's just our it is just art today legally things are name as did the United States as have all the art chapters across the country, which   Michael Hingson ** 15:19 is, which is great and which makes perfect sense. And I kind of always wondered that whether and I sort of thought that that was the case. Well, my experience of being blind going back to when I was born in 1950, doctors told my parents the same thing, send him off to a home because no blind child can ever grow up to be a contributor to society. And he's just going to be a drain on your family. And that was the the tent the tone and the trend at the time, it was even worse than the other countries where they would just dispose of kids with disabilities when they were born.   Lloyd Lewis ** 15:57 Right, you know, we have many blind friends in Colorado, and they've all had similar experiences growing up, and challenges and obstacles. And, and, you know, our deep belief is that people with all disabilities, whether it's mental health, blindness, intellectual disabilities, physical disabilities, should be treated equally and afforded the same opportunities through education or employment as anyone else in society. And that's what we endeavored to do.   Michael Hingson ** 16:31 Being a little bit of a rabble rouser and troublemaker, of course, my position is, every person in society has a disability. And for most all of you, it's the fact that you're like, dependent. And if the lights go out, and you don't, well, if the lights go out, and you don't have a smartphone, or a flashlight nearby, you're in a world of trouble. Yeah,   Lloyd Lewis ** 16:51 I mean, everyone has issues of some type, whether it's, they have, you know, physical, physical issues, or, you know, they have hearing issues, or issues related to aging, or mental health. Or for some people, it's alcohol, some people, it's drugs, sure,   Michael Hingson ** 17:14 but I really, but I really do seriously choose to believe that life dependence is a disability, the only thing is that Thomas Edison invented the light bulb, and now light on demand has become so ubiquitous, that your disability is covered up, but it doesn't change the fact that it is one of the things that most people have to contend with in some way or another. Well,   Lloyd Lewis ** 17:36 you know, thank you for sharing that, you know, and you are absolutely correct if to do anything in our household, before we go to sleep depended on light. And without light. And without vision, I would be completely immobilized.   Michael Hingson ** 17:57 So and and the reality is, of course, you don't have to be but that's the way we're, we mostly are brought up. And the result is that we keep talking about blind people as being visually impaired, which is so wrong on so many levels, because visually, we're not now we look, we don't look different, simply because we're blind, necessarily. And impaired, is what some of the professionals in the field have made it but impaired or not. And it's it's really wrong for people to ever accuse anyone who has a so called traditional disability, physical or intellectual, of being impaired, because that means you're really just comparing us to someone else. And that's so unfortunate.   Lloyd Lewis ** 18:45 Well, thank you for sharing that. That's, that's very profound. And that's very meaningful and impactful. So thank you for sharing that. But   Michael Hingson ** 18:54 it is, it is something that we, we all deal with, in one way or another, and it's just kind of the way it is. So if we, you know, in looking at a lot of all of this, what about EI and people who are dealing with intellectual disabilities and so on.   Lloyd Lewis ** 19:18 But really, I just came to this conversation, from a meeting with my dei director, who happens to be African American, and our senior staff of 10 plus individuals, talking about the importance of Dei, with respect to people who have intellectual disabilities, with respect to broadening the tent as much as possible across the company for people with various various challenges in their own lives. They might be homeless, or they might be, you know, from poor economic or backgrounds, or they might be immigrants or refugees or veterans or formerly incarcerated or black or Latino, female, or we just, you know, every, every part of our society, we like to reach out to as much as we can to offer opportunities to be involved with us. We're very diverse company, which is pervert produced our latest EDI report. And we believe that diversity makes us all stronger, that everyone's different in some way. How   Michael Hingson ** 20:41 did we get most people in society, however, to recognize that we're not including disabilities in the diversity discussion, if you talk to most experts about diversity, they'll talk to you about sexual orientation, and race and gender and so on. And they won't deal with disabilities at all physical or intellectual or developmental. I   Lloyd Lewis ** 21:07 think it's a matter of awareness. I think it's a matter of reaching out and having these discussions, I presented to a group of two or 300 CEOs last year about the importance of including people with intellectual disabilities in their dei programs. I've spoken to national organizations. I've written a book, I'm at work on a movie with a film producer. And to me, I think it's a matter of, we need to reach out, we need to bring this to people's attention. And we need to advocate for our communities. And make sure we're included in DDI programs and discussions, I mean, that the ones that people talk about are more than deserving they're really deserving. But we are no less or no more deserving than other parts of dei programs, right need to be speaking out on behalf of people with disabilities to make sure that we're included in these conversations and in these programs.   Michael Hingson ** 22:15 Well, and we need to teach and help people with disabilities speak out as well, because the reality is that we tend to be ignored. And it's it's so unfortunate, you know, we're talking this month in February, about Black History Month, and so on. In October, it will be in Disability Employment Awareness Month and Disability Awareness Month. But you won't see anywhere near the visibility and the publicity and the talk about it. Even though it's a larger minority than black history, or blacks or African Americans or any of the other minorities who get recognized at one time or another during the year.   Lloyd Lewis ** 22:55 I think it's on us, I think it's on us to really speak out. And, you know, make sure we're represented, make sure we're included, make sure we're part of these conversations. And we need to bring this to people's attention and advocate, just like other groups have that advocated. And they're no less deserving of more than us. But it's really on us, it's on you and me and, and others disability leaders and people with disabilities to make sure that we have seats at the table.   Michael Hingson ** 23:33 Yeah. And I think that, that is a lot of it. We've we've got to get Congress and the states to do more to stiffen the laws and give us more of the laws that we need to have. Even though it should be a no brainer to do so. We don't find that legislators work nearly as fast as they ought to on some of these things. For example, we're just seeing reasonable movement on a bill that would require medical devices to be accessible. We still have debates regularly in the states and even in Congress about the fact that while the Americans with Disabilities Act should cover the internet, and the Department of Justice finally said, so there's still a lot of argument about it. And the result is a lot of places say well, I don't need to really make my website accessible because the Internet didn't come until long after the the ADEA. So the ADEA can't add in any way involve the internet, which is a ridiculous argument. But yet it is what we encounter.   Lloyd Lewis ** 24:52 Well, that is a problem. And you know if we could turn out 50 to 100 people to go talk to our legislators Talk to them session after session, day after day, week after week, we will get their attention. And we will make sure that we get these kinds of issues. You know, I chair five disabilities in Colorado, one of which is a Colorado cross disability coalition representing people with all kinds of disabilities. And the leader of that organization has become very prominent as an advocate, we have a policy aide for the lieutenant governor, who is my co chair for that organization. And we are making big strides in Colorado, getting lots of good legislation, but there's still there's still advocacy to be done. And we're talking about creating a permanent disability office as part of the governor's cabinet. But it again, it's on us to go after these issues. To get the attention of the decision makers, the legislators, the corporation's to make sure that we're not ignored to make sure that we're not back to the bus.   Michael Hingson ** 26:07 Yeah, it's it is a process and there's been growth, there's been movement, but there still is so much more that that does need to be done. And we also have to be proud of our own history and, and recognize that we've made a lot of progress. But there is a lot you have to do.   Lloyd Lewis ** 26:28 I am chair of something called the Atlanta Community Foundation, which is was a sister organization of Atlanta's community Inc, which was the nation's second created Independent Living Center initially on it, or it's helping people move out of nursing homes and get independent living skills. And we manage 200 affordable apartments for people with cross disabilities. And part of the history of this organization is the formation of an organization called adapt, which you're probably familiar with, which does all kinds of advocacy, nationally, nationally has annual sins and protests. Famously, in the 1980s. A gentleman Wade Blank, would march with Dr. King was in Denver, and he was Associate Director for a nursing home where he tried to create, you know, fuller lives, more enjoyable lives are some of the residents, his reward was getting fired. When he got fired. He started suing, you know, the nursing home, getting people removed from the nursing home and creating this independent living center. And one of the more notable actions he organized was something called the gang of 1919 people in wheelchairs, went out to a Denver bus stop as the bus rolled up, they rolled in front, some roll behind another bus rolled up, they roll behind that one. And that led to the first accessible buses in the country here in Denver, that spread out across the country. But they're you know, Berkeley and Denver are two prominent centers of disability history in America.   Michael Hingson ** 28:41 A couple of years ago, I read an article that said that New York City Manhattan specifically made a commitment that they're going to make, I think it was 95%. But it may have been even higher of all subway stations accessible, which meant wheelchair accessible, and so on. And I and I know, having lived in the area and been on a lot of those subway platforms. That is a monumental task, because some of them   Michael Hingson ** 29:20 I'll be interested to see how they create the space to put an elevator in to get people down, which is not that it shouldn't be done. But it was a pretty major commitment. And I gather it's moving forward because I'm not hearing anything that saying that people aren't moving forward with it.   Lloyd Lewis ** 29:35 Well, that hopefully they fulfill that commitment. Yeah. It's again, as you say, it's very important to listen to our community. And make sure that we are included to make sure that we have accessible means to live just like everybody else. How   Michael Hingson ** 29:54 does this whole lack of in some senses regarding disabilities dei I affect the civil liberties of people with disabilities.   Lloyd Lewis ** 30:06 Well, you know, if you're discriminated against in employment, you know, that is a financial impact that is unequal and unfair in very disturbing, there's a very high rate of poverty in our community, which is, needs to be addressed. And those are things that we are working on. And people need the ability to have equal opportunities employment. Similarly, in housing, housing needs to be accessible, it needs to be affordable, needs to be available to people with disabilities, medical care, there's higher needs of medical care. Yeah, there needs to be more attention in Medicaid and other insurance programs to make sure that our community get the kind of medical care that that that they deserve, as human beings, as citizens who should be treated equally with everyone else, you shouldn't have to be rich to get medical care. Yeah, you shouldn't have to be without the disability and the way we think of disability to get appropriate medical care, similarly, in schools, there's still segregated classrooms and school. Yeah, in the world of abuse. People with disabilities, extreme experience higher rates of abuse than others, just in every aspect of society. We are we are hurting people with disabilities if they're not treated fairly and equally with equal opportunities. We   Michael Hingson ** 31:52 were talking earlier about the whole issue of becoming more involved in the conversation and what you were just talking about reminded me of something. My wife, when she was alive, was in a wheelchair her whole life, we were married for two years, and she passed in November of 2022. One of the things that she loved to do and so she got me to watching it as well was television shows like The Property Brothers on HGTV, or they call Property Brothers. Okay. And it's to get two twins, twins, who will go renovate homes for people and, and so on. And they, they do build some, but the thing about it, and there are so many shows like it, that are all involved on Home and Garden Television, with renovating homes, fixing up homes and so on. I don't even even though it would make sense to do, especially since we have an aging population, what I don't see is any of these people making a part of their vernacular or vocabulary or modus operandi, putting in appropriate things to consider the fact that somebody in the future who may get that home will have a disability. And, and so the result is we don't, you know, they don't do it. I think I saw one Property Brothers show where it was a wheelchair issue, or there was a person in a chair. But they don't do it as a matter of course, and it would make sense to do. And some architects will point out why it's sensible to do.   Lloyd Lewis ** 33:36 That's a very important point. Again, we need to be reaching out to the cable show producers, we need to be reaching out to the media, we need to be reaching out the networks, the streamers, Netflix, Amazon, we need to be reaching out to the builders, the builders associations, they can't ignore accessibility. Accessibility needs to be able to be built in everywhere, everywhere. And it's unacceptable to gloss over our community and not really listened to our requests for accessibility and inclusion is just not acceptable.   Michael Hingson ** 34:21 I suppose. And I hear what you're saying. And I don't argue with with that at all. But I do suppose on the one hand, where where should people focus most of their attention? I know in the National Federation of the Blind, for example. Well, the whole issue of access in the way we're talking about for people in chairs and other people isn't quite the issue. It really is. But at the same time, how do you decide where to focus your efforts?   Lloyd Lewis ** 34:57 Well, you know, I I'm very involved in cross disability advocacy. I'm very involved in affordable housing integrated for people with disabilities. I'm very involved in a state disability funding committee funding innovative disability projects on the ark of us Foundation Board, working in the arena, trying to assist them expand their funding capacity. I'm on an international board with members in 100 countries because as much challenge as we have in America, in some parts of the world, it's even Oh, yeah, extremely challenging, and concerning and troubling. And I'm very involved in my own company, and providing relief to our community and food, food insecure, employment opportunities to marginalized populations. And we've hired hundreds of employees with disabilities to my company. You know, where one focuses, it is really dependent on one's primary concerns. And one's bandwidth. I am fortunate to be blessed with an ability to sort of, you know, do a lot of things all at once. And so I try to do as much as I can as much as many different arenas as I can. But, you know, whatever the primary issues are for the National Federation of the Blind. If that's one's main concern, you know, go for it, you know, start reaching out to as many people as you can,   Michael Hingson ** 36:53 yeah. Well, and, and they do. But I, but I think that the, the challenge is, is for all of us so overwhelming, but it doesn't mean that we shouldn't be dealing with it. And one of the reasons that is overwhelming is that there are so many myths and so many poor attitudes and misconceptions about things like employing persons with intellectual and developmental disabilities, or any kind of a disability, you know, what are some of the kind of myths that you encounter every day? And how do you? How do you deal with some of those?   Lloyd Lewis ** 37:30 Well, in my company, it's relatively easy to deal with the myths because I'm at the top of the company. So we don't have the same kinds of barriers and challenges that employees face in other companies. We are completely accessible, we are completely responsible, responsive to the needs of people with disabilities who work for us. With other companies, you know, it becomes more difficult because there are miss that it's going to be too costly, or there's going to be too many accommodations, or they're going to be safety issues, or legal issues or what have you. My response to all of that is, you know, we have to be provide accessibility to our employees, well make accommodations for all our employees. Well, so it's no no different than making accommodation for a person with disability than it is for someone who, who needs some time away with their kids or time away with an illness. Or they need a flexible schedule, or they need some kind of medical support. We need to think about providing accessibility and accommodations for everybody, regardless of ability or disability. Well, here's   Michael Hingson ** 38:51 another example. And one of the reasons I brought it up is to get to this point. So take the average employee who doesn't supposedly have a disability, right? What does any company provide them with? We provide them and I tell me this in a facetious way, but we provide them with lights so that they can see to walk down the hall and go to the restroom, and so on. We provide them with monitors and computers, and especially the monitors so they can see what it is that they have to do on the computer. We provide them with rooms that have coffee machines, so they can get coffee and other things like that. You know, we provide so many reasonable accommodations to the average employee period, that why should it be difficult to provide specific accommodations for maybe a subgroup of those people? And the answer is, of course, it shouldn't be a problem. If I go to work for a company, I instead have a monitor because I'm not going to use a monitor, although typically, computers come with monitors, but I need a screen reader to verbalize the the information that comes across the screen. But I'll get the argument well, but we didn't budget for that. And my response is, yes, you did. You provide what it is that people need in order to be able to access the information on the computer, just because what I use is a little bit different. We, a part of the conversation needs to be that we're providing lots of accommodations for everyone already.   Lloyd Lewis ** 40:35 Yeah, I completely agree. And in my own experience, it's no more costly to provide accommodations to people with disabilities and people who supposedly don't have disabilities. And it's just there's not really an expense differential anyway. And they were even if there were, we need to treat people humanely. People opportunities, well, where are we at as a society with our morality? Yeah, if we don't help everyone who can use our support? What what does that say about our society, even   Michael Hingson ** 41:11 if there were significant differences in expenses, which we know there are not. But even if there were, the bottom line is that any company that is doing anything, can figure out ways to offset those costs. But, but the reality is, there aren't significant differences at all. We   Lloyd Lewis ** 41:32 now live in this world of artificial intelligence. We now live in this world of the cloud. We now live in this world of extreme technical advances, medical advances. There's really no excuse not to support everyone in society, and give them reasonable accommodations. There's just no excuse. And that's   Michael Hingson ** 41:57 one of the reasons is that I object to the concept of being called visually impaired, because impaired is such a negative term, when you start to say anyone is impaired compared to anyone else. Everyone has impairments of one sort or another. And the reality is that we need to get that kind of concept out of our vocabularies, and least out of our mindsets. Well, I   Lloyd Lewis ** 42:23 again, I totally agree. Yeah. They totally agree.   Michael Hingson ** 42:27 So this is probably a little redundant, but what are some of the, the myths and fears that and this gets back to the whole conversation about disabilities? And I think why we're not so much included, but what are some of the myths and fears that people typically have about all of us, and especially I think, even more so with intellectual and developmental disabilities,   Lloyd Lewis ** 42:49 safety cost, legal accommodations, but we experience No, in my company, we have 450 employees with intellectual develop developmental disabilities, 450, Down syndrome, autism, cerebral palsy, all forms of types of developmental disability, my company has never been more successful. I got the company near 37. When we were doing all of 2 million in earnings, we have had 17 of 18 record years only interrupted by the COVID. year, we're now doing 20 million. And I've hired 450 employees with developmental disabilities.   Michael Hingson ** 43:34 How old is the company today?   Lloyd Lewis ** 43:36 is 55 years old? All right, so   Michael Hingson ** 43:39 in 18 years, look what you've done. Yeah, and,   Lloyd Lewis ** 43:42 you know, I attribute a lot of that to employ people with disabilities, love to contribute, love to work in teams are very, you know, positive and inspirational to their fellow employees. And they just appreciate being able to be part of the workforce, and do what the rest of us do. And, you know, to me, I would do it in any company. If I were the head of IBM or the head of Facebook or Apple, I would do the same thing.   Michael Hingson ** 44:20 I would, I would submit that one of the advantages of hiring a person with any kind of a disability who thinks at all would tell you I'm going to be more loyal to you because I know how hard it was for me to get a job and the very fact that you gave me a job is going to want me to stay there because you made me an offer and in theory, you made me feel welcome. Why would I ever want to   Lloyd Lewis ** 44:50 leave boys with with disabilities are extremely low in the hate to miss work? We get to three feet of snow on the road and they want to come into work. I have to order them not to. Yeah, I believe all of our employees with disabilities are our blind agents or employees with intellectual disabilities or wheelchair users. They are extremely loyal, the Colorado's, and they can benefit from employment period that the Colorado   Michael Hingson ** 45:21 Center for the Blind in Littleton has actually purchased an apartment complex where all the students reside. And they have to learn independent living skills, learn how to keep up the apartments and so on. But they go every day to the Senator. So it usually means taking a bus, I think it's close enough that you can walk but not during the snow. But again, people do the same thing. They're very committed to being there to learning the skills that that need to be learned. And they do whatever is necessary to make it work out. And that's what it should be.   Lloyd Lewis ** 46:02 Yeah, again, total agreement you did acquire,   Michael Hingson ** 46:05 I would add one fear that you didn't mention. And I'll, I'll say it and then I'll fall aside a little bit. The fear is, I could become like you, I could get a disability, it could happen to me in a moment's notice. Having said that, the response is, how often when we start to deal with fear, do we just worry about things to death? That will never happen? The reality is most people won't get a dis become a person with a disability in any way. Why are you worrying about it?   Lloyd Lewis ** 46:46 Well, in the employment world, I agree with you. But as we age, more often than not, people eventually acquire some kind of disability, physical mental, cancer, Alzheimer's, you know, as we age, more or less well, true herb as well, not everybody. But I think part of it is not realizing that, you know, at, at the end of our lives, most people are dealing with issues that they didn't deal with earlier now. Sure.   Michael Hingson ** 47:25 And so they also weren't prepared for that either, which is part of what society really needs to do.   Lloyd Lewis ** 47:32 So I think people need a deeper empathy and understanding of, you know, people like my son are born with Down syndrome. And, you know, they have typically cognitive issues, resulting in IQs, less than 76. And, you know, it's not like they chose that live. It's not like, you know, they didn't do things in their life to prevent that happening. My son was born with an extra chromosome 21. But he's, he's a wonderful human being. And he deserves the same kind of opportunities, and treatment as everyone else in society,   Michael Hingson ** 48:19 will he have a job somewhere?   Lloyd Lewis ** 48:21 He, he's already working part time at one of my stores. And he's finishing his last year of high school transition. Cool. But I think people need to understand that a lot of people don't choose their so called disability. They're born with it. And people don't understand that later in life. Most people will probably have some kind of issue they deal with, and how would they like to be treated later in life? Right? What kind of respect they deserve later in life? What kind of treatment do they deserve later in life.   Michael Hingson ** 49:03 One of the wonderful things that happens at the Colorado Center, and that I've talked about before is that if you enroll there, and become a student, if you are low vision, as opposed to blind, that is totally blind. But if you have some eyesight, you will still do most of your work, your travel training and so on, under sleep shades. And you will learn to do that as a totally blind person. And the reason   Lloyd Lewis ** 49:33 pardon me but describe sleep shades for me. Sleep shades are   Michael Hingson ** 49:37 the things that some people put on at night when their lights so basically, covering your eyes or got it. Yeah, I forget the other terms that people use for them, but that's basically just so that you don't see any light. Okay? And the reason for it is many people who enroll or matriculate into the center with and have who have low vision are people who have retinitis pigmentosa or something else has occurred with them. And they will probably lose the rest of their vision. And the philosophy of the center is. This is the time for you to learn all about blindness. And really what blindness means. And by doing so, when you lose the rest of your eyesight, which is not to say you shouldn't use the ICU half, but when you lose the rest of it, which very well could happen, you'll already know what to do. And you don't have to go through a second psychological trauma, and learn things all over again, which I think is so important, because we teach people that blindness isn't the problem. And I think it's true with other disabilities as well. It's not the problem. It's our attitudes and our perceptions that are the real issue that we face.   Lloyd Lewis ** 50:56 Yeah, I very much appreciate that kind of thought process. It's,   Michael Hingson ** 51:01 it's pretty cool. One of the things that you have to do if you're going to graduate from the Senator, is you have to cook a lunch yourselves, for staff and all the students, which means you're usually cooking for between 70 and 80 people, and you get to do the whole lunch plan, the menu and everything. It's really excited on graduation day for anyone when that happens, because they've learned Linus has been gonna keep me from doing stuff.   Lloyd Lewis ** 51:32 Do you know Brenda Mosby does that name ring a bell? No. She's my co chair for the Colorado processability coalition. And she has low vision, I believe. And that's a person that is you remind me, I will email intro I think you would really enjoy me with Brenda, who has a lot of your experiences and philosophies. And I think she would be an important person for you to get connected with in Colorado.   Michael Hingson ** 51:59 Sure. And on top of everything else, we can get her on the podcast.   Lloyd Lewis ** 52:03 She would she would be great on the podcast,   Michael Hingson ** 52:08 always looking for guests. So anybody who has a person you think we I   Lloyd Lewis ** 52:13 guess be at work? Yes.   Michael Hingson ** 52:15 We're always looking. So anybody listening, if you've got a thought for a guest, we want to hear from you. But that's great. I'd love to meet her. And, and again, we're going to be in Colorado, we'll we'll work that out. I think it'll be a lot of fun to do. But I think that for the most part, we really do need to recognize that what people think about us and not necessarily the way reality really is.   Lloyd Lewis ** 52:47 Here, I mean people's misperceptions that people have intellectual disabilities as an example. If they're not connected to someone, they don't realize the full value and contribution someone like my son can make. What I'd say get to know him, and his personality, and his sense of humor. And you know, the things he enjoys? Yeah, his ability to verbal communication is a little tough for him because of some, you know, physical features. Yeah, sometimes a company down syndrome. But you can miss estimate what his real intelligence level is, because the verbal thing, but   Michael Hingson ** 53:33 I will bet he's not shy about voicing his opinion or articulating where he can.   Lloyd Lewis ** 53:37 He's not shy at all. In fact, he's kind of like the life of the party. And he loves to give speeches. And he is not embarrassed at all, to be in front of 1000s of people and get the microphone and express his opinions.   Michael Hingson ** 53:55 What's the difference between an intellectual and a developmental disability?   Lloyd Lewis ** 54:02 Well, they describe two things intellectual is around IQ and developmental as around the various stages of development, you know, crawling, walking, the typical developmental phases of early childhood.   Michael Hingson ** 54:24 What are would you say some of the best industries? I'll be interested to hear your answer to this some of the best industries that are suited to support or employ persons with intellectual and developmental disabilities.   Lloyd Lewis ** 54:37 I would say every industry there you go. That's what we tend to think of certain industries that Yeah, look, but I'm telling you, every industry can have people with IDD work in that industry and be productive contributing members every year. I don't care whether it's tech aerospace, or the military, or every single and energy, retail groceries, every single industry can have seductive employees who have IDD and productive employees who have any form of so called disability.   Michael Hingson ** 55:24 Yeah, I think that's really the right answer. Why should we be limited?   Lloyd Lewis ** 55:32 Well, we're limited due to misperception. Yeah, that's my point, he went to lack of understanding, lack of awareness, lack of connection. And it's not always particularly the fault of these industries. Because unless you have a personal connection, you may not have had the opportunity to become aware of who people really are. This is same experience African Americans had back in the day and still have today that women have had and still have today, that gays have had and still have today. That there, there's a lack of understanding of so called, you know, diverse communities, that with understanding and connection, all of that goes away. All of that goes away   Michael Hingson ** 56:16 with all of the things that are going on today in society. And I think in so many ways, we are losing the art of conversation, and so on. Do you think that's making the opportunities and the whole potential for having the conversations that we're talking about tougher?   Lloyd Lewis ** 56:40 Yeah, these kinds of conversations can be tough, because people aren't familiar with them. And these are new concepts. And one has to set aside some biases, in a lot of cases unconscious biases, that again, with personal connections and awareness and direct contact. A lot of this stuff goes away. Yeah, you get to know who they are, she   Michael Hingson ** 57:03 got to know. Yeah. You discovered for   Lloyd Lewis ** 57:08 literally being in a room with somebody, or on the phone with somebody and getting to know,   Michael Hingson ** 57:12 you discovered that what you thought isn't really the way it is.   Lloyd Lewis ** 57:16 That is correct. That's absolutely correct. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 57:19 I want to thank you for being here with us and taking the time to chat with us about art about disabilities in general. Of course, needless to say, it's a topic that's near and dear to my heart. If people want to reach out to you and and talk with you more or or learn more about our How do they do that?   Lloyd Lewis ** 57:42 They can email me a Lewis l e w i s at ARC thrift.com, A R C thrift.com. On my cell phone 720-206-7047 Just say you heard this on this program. There   Michael Hingson ** 57:55 you go. Well, I hope people will do it, I hope people will reach out and the people will be more now stimulated and more knowledgeable about disabilities than they were before they came. I think that it's extremely important, and that they will help promote the conversation. And we'll have to work on getting the Property Brothers to come on to unstoppable mindset. These days. I think that'll be fun as less contact those guys. Yeah, Jonathan and drew Scott.   Lloyd Lewis ** 58:26 Wonderful conversation, really enjoyed getting to know you and have this conversation. And I think I learned a hell of a lot more from you than you learn from me.   Michael Hingson ** 58:35 Ah, not sure about that. I always love to   Lloyd Lewis ** 58:38 add a lot of wisdom in what you said.   Michael Hingson ** 58:41 Well, thank you. I appreciate it. I think we both learned a lot, which is the way it should be. I feel that if I'm not learning on these podcasts, and I'm not doing a good job, and I always find ways to learn so   Lloyd Lewis ** 58:52 this podcast is gonna be one of my favorite podcasts, you   58:55 will definitely get it. Well thank you and I want to thank you all for being here and listening to us. Love to hear your thoughts. Please feel free to email me at Michaelhi M I C H A E L H I at accessiBe A c c e s s i b e.com. Or go to our podcast page at WWW dot Michael hingson.com/podcast. Michael Hingson is m i c h a e l h i n g s o n.com. And I should have said and will now say that we met Lloyd through Sheldon Lewis at accessiBe you know, Sheldon.   Lloyd Lewis ** 59:29 Well, thank you. Thank you so much, Michael. I very much enjoyed this.   Michael Hingson ** 59:32 Well, thank you for being here. We really appreciate it. And let's do it again.   Lloyd Lewis ** 59:38 Please do it again. More to learn. Let's do it again.   Michael Hingson ** 59:45 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

A decade ago, rampant predictions assumed solar and battery storage would render the century-old electric utility business model obsolete and trigger a “utility death spiral.” But the reality is just the opposite. In this episode of Power Plays, leaders of Middle Tennessee Electric and Tennessee Valley Authority explain how they are using DER to transform their regional grid. 

A look at the Tennessee Valley Authority's plans for power generation. Plus the latest newscast and this week's edition of What Where WhensDay.   This is a production of Nashville Public Radio Host/producer: Nina Cardona Editor: Miriam Kramer Additional support: Mack Linebaugh, Tony Gonzalez, Rachel Iacovone, LaTonya Turner and the staff of WPLN and WNXP

Matt Rasmussen originally wanted to be an archeologist (thanks, Indiana Jones!) or a forester, but after settling into engineering in college, he never looked back and has had a wildly successful career with the Tennessee Valley Authority.    In this episode, Matt shares his many steps up the corporate ladder and what makes someone stay at one company for 22 years. He also gives the inside scoop on nuclear power and what happens behind the scenes at TVA.   Matt Rasmussen is the SVP of Engineering and Operations Support at TVA. You can connect with him on LinkedIn here.   My Morning Cup is hosted by Mike Costa of Costa Media Advisors and produced by SpeakEasy Productions. Subscribe to our new weekly newsletter here.   If you liked this episode, we think you'll also like: Tom Cupo's Morning Cup (E32) Mark McKnight's Morning Cup (E39) Mark Reeves's Morning Cup (E46)

The purpose of the short-lived Bonneville Power Administration (BPA), established in 1937, was to distribute and market power generated by the Columbia River's Bonneville Dam. Supporters anticipated that it would soon be superseded by an organization dedicated to comprehensive planning, such as the Tennessee Valley Authority. Both the repeated attempts to create a Columbia Valley Authority and the subsequent attempts to demolish BPA were unsuccessful. The organization encouraged consumers to use electricity liberally while selling it at absurdly low costs. In an attempt to meet the demand it had helped create, it encouraged the building of further dams. Later, when the river was almost completely blocked, it placed a disastrous multibillion-dollar wager on nuclear power. It was forced to save energy and restore fish runs that the dams had destroyed by congressional mandates in the 1980s.Listen now to learn more about this controversial venture in the Evergreen State and beyond!A special thank you goes out to Al Hirsch for providing the music for the podcast, check him out on YouTube.Find merchandise for the podcast now available at:     https://washington-history-by-jon-c.creator-spring.comIf you enjoy the podcast and would like to contribute, please visit: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/EvergreenpodIf you have any questions, episode ideas you'd like to see explored, or just have a general comment, please reach out at Historyoftheevergreenstatepod@gmail.comTo keep up on news for the podcast and other related announcements, please like and follow:https://www.facebook.com/HistoryoftheevergreenstatepodcastFind the podcast over on Instagram as well: @HISTORY_EVERGREENSTATEPODCASTYou can also find the podcast over on YouTube:http://www.youtube.com/@historyoftheevergreenstatepodThank you for listening to another episode of the History of the Evergreen State Podcast!

Back in the 1970s, the Tennessee Valley Authority built what remains one of the largest energy storage facilities in the world: a pumped-storage hydropower plant. A pump takes water from the Tennessee River, shoots it up a giant shaft and holds it there until electric power needs peak during the day. At that point, the water is allowed to drain back down, spinning turbines that can generate enough power for a million homes. It’s almost like a gravity-powered battery as big as a cathedral … buried deep inside a mountain. Marketplace’s Lily Jamali spoke with Robert Kunzig, a freelance journalist who recently wrote about this in depth for the publication Science. He says pumped-storage hydro is attracting a lot of interest, thanks in part to generous tax credits from the 2022 Inflation Reduction Act.

Back in the 1970s, the Tennessee Valley Authority built what remains one of the largest energy storage facilities in the world: a pumped-storage hydropower plant. A pump takes water from the Tennessee River, shoots it up a giant shaft and holds it there until electric power needs peak during the day. At that point, the water is allowed to drain back down, spinning turbines that can generate enough power for a million homes. It’s almost like a gravity-powered battery as big as a cathedral … buried deep inside a mountain. Marketplace’s Lily Jamali spoke with Robert Kunzig, a freelance journalist who recently wrote about this in depth for the publication Science. He says pumped-storage hydro is attracting a lot of interest, thanks in part to generous tax credits from the 2022 Inflation Reduction Act.

Jared Mitchem serves as Regional Vice President for TVA's South Region. In this role he is responsible for leading a dynamic team of professionals to create value for TVA stakeholders in north Alabama. The South Region team works hard to solve problems, find opportunities for mutual success, and strengthen partnerships with customers, government officials, and community leaders. Jared most recently worked in TVA's Office of the General Counsel (OGC). During his time with OGC, he held various leadership positions and was responsible for overseeing and leading teams responsible for each of the several legal functions of the office, including Litigation, Commercial, Environmental, and Employment Law. His broad TVA experience also includes leadership roles in the Pricing & Contracts organization and with Economic Development. Prior to joining TVA, Jared served as a civil litigation attorney in private practice in Alabama and for a large oil and gas company in Houston, Texas. A native of Alabama, Jared grew up in Mobile and Birmingham. He received a bachelor's degree from the University of South Alabama and law degree from the University of Alabama School of Law. Jared is married to Erika Mitchem and has three children, Mazie, Charlie, and Edison. Jared lives in Madison, Alabama. For more information on the Tennessee Valley Authority, visit https://tva.com Host/Interviewer: M. Troy Bye, Owner, Our Town Podcast Website: www.ourtownpodcast.net Spotify Channel: https://spoti.fi/3QtpT8z Audio available on all platforms - just search for "Our Town Podcast" Follow us on social media: LinkedIn: http://bit.ly/41rlgTt Facebook: https://bit.ly/ourtownpodcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ourtownpodcast/ Episode Timeline: 00:00 Start00:10 Wind Power03:01 Singing River Trail/Regional Asset05:40 Higher Purpose/Public Good10:44 Dedicated Employees/Long Careers18:32 Recruiting23:37 Infrastructure Demands28:03 Selling Excess Power34:00 Orchestrating Supply & Demand35:45 Raccoon Mountain42:25 TVA is Unique48:40 TVA Naming Issue? --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/m-troy-bye/support

Jared Mitchem serves as Regional Vice President for TVA's South Region. In this role he is responsible for leading a dynamic team of professionals to create value for TVA stakeholders in north Alabama. The South Region team works hard to solve problems, find opportunities for mutual success, and strengthen partnerships with customers, government officials, and community leaders. Jared most recently worked in TVA's Office of the General Counsel (OGC). During his time with OGC, he held various leadership positions and was responsible for overseeing and leading teams responsible for each of the several legal functions of the office, including Litigation, Commercial, Environmental, and Employment Law. His broad TVA experience also includes leadership roles in the Pricing & Contracts organization and with Economic Development. Prior to joining TVA, Jared served as a civil litigation attorney in private practice in Alabama and for a large oil and gas company in Houston, Texas.A native of Alabama, Jared grew up in Mobile and Birmingham. He received a bachelor's degree from the University of South Alabama and law degree from the University of Alabama School of Law. Jared is married to Erika Mitchem and has three children, Mazie, Charlie, and Edison. Jared lives in Madison, Alabama.For more information on the Tennessee Valley Authority, visit https://tva.comHost/Interviewer: M. Troy Bye, Owner, Our Town Podcast Website: www.ourtownpodcast.net Spotify Channel: https://spoti.fi/3QtpT8z Audio available on all platforms - just search for "Our Town Podcast" Follow us on social media: LinkedIn: http://bit.ly/41rlgTt Facebook: https://bit.ly/ourtownpodcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ourtownpodcast/Episode Timeline:00:00 Start00:10 Background/Loki02:06 Early Career04:30 Stumbling into Energy09:00 TVA Footprint11:45 Tennessee River14:30 Selling Excess Power17:38 Wilson Dam22:18 Legal Structure of TVA28:53 Any Comparisons?32:00 TVA Statistics34:50 Tax Exempt39:00 Opposition 47:50 Role of Regional VP50:33 Consumer Demands56:25 Rate Hike01:03:31 Zoning --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/m-troy-bye/support

Click to listen to episode (5:03).Sections below are the following:Transcript of AudioAudio Notes and AcknowledgmentsImagesExtra InformationSourcesRelated Water Radio EpisodesFor Virginia Teachers (Relevant SOLs, etc.)Unless otherwise noted, all Web addresses mentioned were functional as of 9-1-23. TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO From the Cumberland Gap to the Atlantic Ocean, this is Virginia Water Radio for the weeks of September 4 and September 11, 2023. MUSIC – ~22 sec – Lyrics: “Wake up in the morning and get to work; wake up in the morning and get to work.  Got a lot of work to do, gonna go do it, gotta get to it.” That's part of “Get to Work,” by the Harrisionburg- and Rockingham County, Va.-based band, The Steel Wheels, from their 2019 album, “Over the Trees.”  It sets the stage for a water-and-work quiz game, honoring Labor Day by exploring some water-related jobs.  In this game, I'll read 10 short samples of people describing their work connected to water; you'll have a couple of seconds of river sounds to guess the job, then I'll tell you the answer.  Let's get to it! No. 1.  I manage places where marine or freshwater creatures are grown for food, restoration, or other purposes. [RIVER SOUNDS - ~2 SEC]  That's an aquaculturist. No. 2.  I ply big rivers on large, flat vessels full of coal, grains, and other goods.  [RIVER SOUNDS - ~2 SEC] That's a crew member on a river barge. No. 3.  I'm a scientist who studies fish.  [RIVER SOUNDS - ~2 SEC]  That's an ichthyologist. No. 4.  I'm a scientist who studies inland waters, both fresh and salty.  [RIVER SOUNDS - ~2 SEC]  That's a limnologist.  No. 5.  I respond to often dangerous emergencies with the aid of trucks, hoses, pumps, and other equipment.  [RIVER SOUNDS - ~2 SEC]  That's a firefighter. No. 6.  I use filters, chemicals, and tests to treat water going from sources to customers.  [RIVER SOUNDS - ~2 SEC]  That a water-supply plant worker. No. 7.  I use filters, chemicals, and tests to treat used water and send it back to water sources.  [RIVER SOUNDS - ~2 SEC]  That's a wastewater-treatment plant worker. No. 8.  I board huge ships in open waters, then guide the ships safely into port.  [RIVER SOUNDS - ~2 SEC]  That's a harbor pilot. No. 9.  I work to ensure safe, accessible, and effective use of a water-recreation facility.  [RIVER SOUNDS - ~2 SEC]  That's a swimming pool manager, lifeguard, or water exercise instructor. And No. 10.  I use powerful drills to provide access to groundwater.  [RIVER SOUNDS - ~2 SEC]  That's a water-well contractor. Other water-related jobs include boat building, farming, public health, managing lakes and dams, managing watersheds, identifying wetlands, and lots more.  As Labor Day comes and goes, here's a big thank you to people who work to provide, manage, navigate, protect, and teach and learn about our common wealth of water.   Thanks also to The Steel Wheels for permission to use part of “Get to Work.”  We close with some more music, this time by renowned musician and former Charlottesville, Virginia, resident John McCutcheon.  From his 1998 album “Four Seasons: Autumnsongs,” here's about 35 seconds of “Labor Day.” MUSIC – ~36 sec – Lyrics: “Labor Day, Labor Day, September or the first of May.  To all who work this world we say, ‘Happy Labor Day.'” SHIP'S BELL Virginia Water Radio is produced by the Virginia Water Resources Research Center, part of Virginia Tech's College of Natural Resources and Environment.  For more Virginia water sounds, music, or information, visit us online at virginiawaterradio.org, or call the Water Center at (540) 231-5624.  Thanks to Ben Cosgrove for his version of “Shenandoah” to open and close this episode.  In Blacksburg, I'm Alan Raflo, thanking you for listening, and wishing you health, wisdom, and good water. AUDIO NOTES AND ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS The river sounds heard in this episode were recorded by Virginia Water Radio beside the New River at Radford, Va., on October 6, 2013. “Get to Work,” from the 2019 album, “Over the Trees,” is copyright by The Steel Wheels, used with permission.  More information about The Steel Wheels is available online at http://www.thesteelwheels.com/.  This music was used previously by Virginia Water Radio in Episode 558, 1-4-21. “Labor Day,” from the 1998 album “Four Seasons: Autumnsongs,” on Rounder Records, is copyright by John McCutcheon/Appalsongs and Si Kahn/Joe Hill Music, used with permission of John McCutcheon.  More information about John McCutcheon is available online at http://www.folkmusic.com/.  Thanks to John Plunkett of Appalseed Productions for his help in acquiring permission to use this music.  More information about Appalseed Productions is available online at https://appalseed-productions-2.square.site/. Click here if you'd like to hear the full version (2 min./22 sec.) of the “Shenandoah” arrangement/performance by Ben Cosgrove that opens and closes this episode.  More information about Mr. Cosgrove is available online at http://www.bencosgrove.com. IMAGES (Except as otherwise noted, photographs are by Virginia Water Radio.) A Virginia Tech worker testing fire-hyrdrant pressure on the university campus in Blacksburg, March 10, 2017.A well-drilling rig at a Montgomery County, Virginia, residential project, June 20, 2014.A barge transporting stone on the Ohio River at Huntington, West Virginia, November 6, 2011.A commercial ship on the Chesapeake Bay as viewed from Kent Island, Maryland, September 22, 2010.EXTRA INFORMATION ABOUT LABOR DAY The following information is from U.S. Department of Labor, “History of Labor Day,” online at https://www.dol.gov/general/laborday/history.  “Before it was a federal holiday, Labor Day was recognized by labor activists and individual states.  After municipal ordinances were passed in 1885 and 1886, a movement developed to secure state legislation.  New York was the first state to introduce a bill, but Oregon was the first to pass a law recognizing Labor Day, on February 21, 1887.  During 1887, four more states – Colorado, Massachusetts, New Jersey and New York – passed laws creating a Labor Day holiday. By the end of the decade Connecticut, Nebraska and Pennsylvania had followed suit.  By 1894, 23 more states had adopted the holiday, and on June 28, 1894, Congress passed an act making the first Monday in September of each year a legal holiday.” SOURCES USED FOR AUDIO AND OFFERING MORE INFORMATION American Society of Limnology and Oceanography, “What is Limnology?”  Online at https://www.aslo.org/what-is-aquatic-science/what-is-limnology/. Encyclopedia Britannica, “May Day,” by Meg Matthais, online at https://www.britannica.com/topic/May-Day-international-observance. Fire Safety USA, “All [Product] Categories,” online at https://firesafetyusa.com/collections/all-products. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration/National Ocean Service, “What is aquaculture?”  Online at this link. NPR, “Harbor Pilots Reap High Rewards for Dangerous Job,” by Gloria Hillard, March 21, 2012. NPR, “What is May Day?”  For the most part, the opposite of capitalism,” by Emma Bowman, May 1, 2023. Tennessee Valley Authority, “Commodities Shipped on the River,” online at https://www.tva.com/environment/managing-the-river/commodities-shipped-on-the-river. University of New Mexico, “Position Classification Description: Aquatics Manager,” online at https://jobdescriptions.unm.edu/detail.php?v&id=I6001. U.S. Department of Labor, “History of Labor Day,” online at https://www.dol.gov/general/laborday/history. U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, “Learn About Private Water Wells,” online at https://www.epa.gov/privatewells/learn-about-private-water-wells. Virginia Cooperative Extension/Virginia Household Water Quality Program, “Wellcheck Contractor List,” online at https://www.wellwater.bse.vt.edu/wellcheck-contractor-list.php. Karen Zraik, “What is Labor Day?  A History of the Workers' Holiday,” New York Times, September 4, 2023 (first published in 2018).RELATED VIRGINIA WATER RADIO EPISODES All Water Radio episodes are listed by category at the Index link above (http://www.virginiawaterradio.org/p/index.html).  See particularly the “Overall Importance of Water” subject category. Following are links to some other episodes on Labor Day or water-related labor.Episode 279, 8-24-15 – Oysters, Nitrogen, and the Chesapeake Bay. Episode 378, 7-24-17 – The Complicated Challenge of Cleaner Water. Episode 436, 9-3-18 – Labor Day, “Sandy Boys,” and the Big Sandy River. Episode 578, 5-24-21 – Water Well Construction is an Ancient and Modern Human Practice. Episode 635, 8-29-22 – A Fishing Focus for Labor Day, Featuring the Northern Neck Chantey Singers FOR VIRGINIA TEACHERS – RELATED STANDARDS OF LEARNING (SOLs) AND OTHER INFORMATION Following are some Virginia Standards of Learning (SOLs) that may be supported by this episode's audio/transcript, sources, or other information included in this post. 2020 Music SOLs SOLs at various grade levels that call for “examining the relationship of music to the other fine arts and other fields of knowledge.” 2018 Science SOLs Grades K-5: Earth and Space Systems3.7 – There is a water cycle and water is important to life on Earth. Grades K-5: Earth Resources3.8 – Natural events and humans influence ecosystems.4.8 – Virginia has important natural resources. Grade 66.6 – Water has unique physical properties and has a role in the natural and human-made environment.6.8 – Land and water have roles in watershed systems.6.9 – Humans impact the environment and individuals can influence public policy decisions related to energy and the environment. Earth ScienceES.6 – Resource use is complex.ES.8 – Freshwater resources influence and are influenced by geologic processes and human activity.ES.10 – Oceans are complex, dynamic systems subject to long- and short-term variations.

During the Great Depression, the American South was not merely "the nation's number one economic problem," as President Franklin Roosevelt declared. It was also a battlefield on which forces for and against social change were starting to form. For a white southern liberal like Jonathan Daniels, editor of the Raleigh News and Observer, it was a fascinating moment to explore. Attuned to culture as well as politics, Daniels knew the true South lay somewhere between Erskine Caldwell's Tobacco Road and Margaret Mitchell's Gone with the Wind.  On May 5, 1937, he set out to find it, driving thousands of miles in his trusty Plymouth and ultimately interviewing even Mitchell herself. In Discovering the South historian Jennifer Ritterhouse pieces together Daniels's unpublished notes from his tour along with his published writings and a wealth of archival evidence to put this one man's journey through a South in transition into a larger context. Daniels's well chosen itinerary brought him face to face with the full range of political and cultural possibilities in the South of the 1930s, from New Deal liberalism and social planning in the Tennessee Valley Authority, to Communist agitation in the Scottsboro case, to planters' and industrialists' reactionary worldview and repressive violence. Jennifer Ritterhouse's book Discovering the South: One Man's Travels through a Changing America in the 1930s (UNC Press, 2017) is a lively narrative of black and white southerners fighting for and against democratic social change at the start of the nation's long civil rights era. For more information on this book, see www.discoveringthesouth.org. Matt Simmons is an Assistant Professor of History at Emmanuel University where he teaches courses in U.S. and public history. His research focuses on the intersection of labor and race in the twentieth-century American South. You can follow him on Twitter. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/african-american-studies

During the Great Depression, the American South was not merely "the nation's number one economic problem," as President Franklin Roosevelt declared. It was also a battlefield on which forces for and against social change were starting to form. For a white southern liberal like Jonathan Daniels, editor of the Raleigh News and Observer, it was a fascinating moment to explore. Attuned to culture as well as politics, Daniels knew the true South lay somewhere between Erskine Caldwell's Tobacco Road and Margaret Mitchell's Gone with the Wind.  On May 5, 1937, he set out to find it, driving thousands of miles in his trusty Plymouth and ultimately interviewing even Mitchell herself. In Discovering the South historian Jennifer Ritterhouse pieces together Daniels's unpublished notes from his tour along with his published writings and a wealth of archival evidence to put this one man's journey through a South in transition into a larger context. Daniels's well chosen itinerary brought him face to face with the full range of political and cultural possibilities in the South of the 1930s, from New Deal liberalism and social planning in the Tennessee Valley Authority, to Communist agitation in the Scottsboro case, to planters' and industrialists' reactionary worldview and repressive violence. Jennifer Ritterhouse's book Discovering the South: One Man's Travels through a Changing America in the 1930s (UNC Press, 2017) is a lively narrative of black and white southerners fighting for and against democratic social change at the start of the nation's long civil rights era. For more information on this book, see www.discoveringthesouth.org. Matt Simmons is an Assistant Professor of History at Emmanuel University where he teaches courses in U.S. and public history. His research focuses on the intersection of labor and race in the twentieth-century American South. You can follow him on Twitter. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/new-books-network

During the Great Depression, the American South was not merely "the nation's number one economic problem," as President Franklin Roosevelt declared. It was also a battlefield on which forces for and against social change were starting to form. For a white southern liberal like Jonathan Daniels, editor of the Raleigh News and Observer, it was a fascinating moment to explore. Attuned to culture as well as politics, Daniels knew the true South lay somewhere between Erskine Caldwell's Tobacco Road and Margaret Mitchell's Gone with the Wind.  On May 5, 1937, he set out to find it, driving thousands of miles in his trusty Plymouth and ultimately interviewing even Mitchell herself. In Discovering the South historian Jennifer Ritterhouse pieces together Daniels's unpublished notes from his tour along with his published writings and a wealth of archival evidence to put this one man's journey through a South in transition into a larger context. Daniels's well chosen itinerary brought him face to face with the full range of political and cultural possibilities in the South of the 1930s, from New Deal liberalism and social planning in the Tennessee Valley Authority, to Communist agitation in the Scottsboro case, to planters' and industrialists' reactionary worldview and repressive violence. Jennifer Ritterhouse's book Discovering the South: One Man's Travels through a Changing America in the 1930s (UNC Press, 2017) is a lively narrative of black and white southerners fighting for and against democratic social change at the start of the nation's long civil rights era. For more information on this book, see www.discoveringthesouth.org. Matt Simmons is an Assistant Professor of History at Emmanuel University where he teaches courses in U.S. and public history. His research focuses on the intersection of labor and race in the twentieth-century American South. You can follow him on Twitter. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/history

During the Great Depression, the American South was not merely "the nation's number one economic problem," as President Franklin Roosevelt declared. It was also a battlefield on which forces for and against social change were starting to form. For a white southern liberal like Jonathan Daniels, editor of the Raleigh News and Observer, it was a fascinating moment to explore. Attuned to culture as well as politics, Daniels knew the true South lay somewhere between Erskine Caldwell's Tobacco Road and Margaret Mitchell's Gone with the Wind.  On May 5, 1937, he set out to find it, driving thousands of miles in his trusty Plymouth and ultimately interviewing even Mitchell herself. In Discovering the South historian Jennifer Ritterhouse pieces together Daniels's unpublished notes from his tour along with his published writings and a wealth of archival evidence to put this one man's journey through a South in transition into a larger context. Daniels's well chosen itinerary brought him face to face with the full range of political and cultural possibilities in the South of the 1930s, from New Deal liberalism and social planning in the Tennessee Valley Authority, to Communist agitation in the Scottsboro case, to planters' and industrialists' reactionary worldview and repressive violence. Jennifer Ritterhouse's book Discovering the South: One Man's Travels through a Changing America in the 1930s (UNC Press, 2017) is a lively narrative of black and white southerners fighting for and against democratic social change at the start of the nation's long civil rights era. For more information on this book, see www.discoveringthesouth.org. Matt Simmons is an Assistant Professor of History at Emmanuel University where he teaches courses in U.S. and public history. His research focuses on the intersection of labor and race in the twentieth-century American South. You can follow him on Twitter. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/american-studies

Leaves You Hopeful is a short podcast series produced by 2023 Dogwood Alliance Fellow Aanahita Ervin. It highlights stories about large institutions - government, private foundations, corporations - misusing forests against the wishes of the local community members. While misuse of forest land is often legal, it is not ethical. These offending institutions are large and powerful. Oftentimes people assume they can't ask questions. Sometimes, they don't have the resources to do so. THIS EPISODE: Land Between the Lakes (LBL) national recreation area has a history of government mismanagement. The story begins with the 1958 removal of families by the Tennessee Valley Authority to create LBL. It then fast forwards to the perceived mismanagement of lands by the forest service in 2014. A broad coalition of people came together to stop what they thought was a misuse of their forest. They believed a public good was being destroyed in favor of timber companies and an unfamiliar landscape. This episode explores how the history of a land and people can play a pivotal role in events 55 years later.

Reporter Dharna Noor learns about the Tennessee Valley Authority: the good, the bad, the past, and the future.This is the 5th episode of The Dig Presents.Produced by Dharna Noor. Edited by Liza Yeager and Mitchell Johnson.Support The Dig at patreon.com/thedigAll Haymarket books are 40% off! Shop at haymarketbooks.org Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Reporter Dharna Noor learns about the Tennessee Valley Authority: the good, the bad, the past, and the future. This is the 5th episode of The Dig Presents. Produced by Dharna Noor. Edited by Liza Yeager and Mitchell Johnson. Support The Dig at patreon.com/thedig All Haymarket books are 40% off! Shop at haymarketbooks.org

Welcome back to the Alt Goes Mainstream podcast.Today's episode dives into an important and growing part of the alts ecosystem: how investors can access and invest into alternatives through their retirement funds.We have Eric Satz, the CEO of Alto, a self-directed IRA custodian, with us today to discuss how he's on a mission to provide everyday Americans with the same investment opportunity long favored by institutional investors.Alto provides custody for a wide array of alternative assets, including private companies, real estate, crypto, loans, and securitized collectibles. Alto has streamlined the process for companies, funds, and SEC registered investment platforms to include IRA investors in their offerings. They've partnered with firms across the alts space, including AngelList, Coinbase, EquityZen, Republic, Masterworks, and others, to enable investors to invest into private markets with their IRA.Eric is a serial entrepreneur and former investment banker. He worked at DLJ / Credit Suisse First Boston before co-founding Currenex (acquired by State Street for $564M), Plumgood Food, and Tennessee Community Ventures. His passion for entrepreneurship led him to serve on the Board of the Tennessee Valley Authority from 2015 to 2018 and he teaches an entrepreneurship class to high school students.On today's podcast, Eric teaches us all about the merits of a self-directed IRA. He shares why and how it makes sense to use an IRA to invest into private markets investments and how he's taking lessons learned from prior IRA businesses to build Alto.Thanks Eric for coming on the show to share your knowledge and passion for alternatives.

About Joy Ditto: Joy Ditto is a dynamic leader and influential figure in the energy sector. As the President and CEO of Joy Ditto Consulting, she advises companies on vital areas such as cyber and physical security, resilience, broadband, and clean energy development. With her strategic prowess, Joy helps organizations shape their engagement with the federal government and improve overall performance. Her exceptional track record includes being selected as part of a prestigious Blue-Ribbon Panel to assess the Tennessee Valley Authority's response to a major winter storm. Previously, as President and CEO of the American Public Power Association, Joy achieved remarkable milestones, including a substantial increase in revenue, tripled net worth, and securing a historic tax credit for clean energy development. Joy's expertise and media presence have garnered attention on crucial topics, and she has appeared in renowned outlets such as Bloomberg Radio and NPR. With a background encompassing Capitol Hill experience and influential roles in various organizations, Joy brings a wealth of knowledge and strategic insight to the energy sector.In this episode, Aaron and Joy Ditto discuss:The evolution of NERC CIP and the inclusion of cybersecurity.Transformative progress of cybersecurity in the power utility industry.Educating policy makers on OT and IT distinctions.The impact of AI on policy and operations in the OT space.Key Takeaways:The formation of NERC CIP and the development of reliability standards in the power industry were driven by the need to address integration challenges, ensure economic benefits, and mitigate the risks of cascading effects on the transmission grid, with cybersecurity considerations being added later during the implementation phase.The power utility industry has made significant progress in cybersecurity due to the implementation of NERC regulations, which have fostered an iterative and collaborative approach, enabling baseline maturity while allowing utilities to go above and beyond to protect critical assets.Recognizing the significance of clear communication and education in intricate domains such as cybersecurity, IT, and OT, it becomes vital to present policymakers and decision-makers with simplified yet precise information, empowering them to make well-informed choices while sidestepping unintended outcomes.Policy discussions surrounding AI in operational technology (OT) must carefully navigate its potential benefits in areas like cybersecurity and efficiency while addressing concerns about control, manipulation, and potential risks, emphasizing the importance of a balanced approach to its responsible implementation. "Even though we see danger in deploying AI and maybe cutting jobs out from people, maybe there's gonna be a positive there too, like professionals who come into play, right? We need a diversity of people in our industry to be able to manage these challenges." — Joy Ditto Connect with Joy Ditto: Email: joy@joydittoconsulting.comPhone: (703) 861-6361LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joy-ditto-utc/Twitter: https://twitter.com/joyditto?lang=enConnect with Aaron:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aaronccrowLearn more about Industrial Defender:Website: https://www.industrialdefender.com/podcast LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/industrial-defender-inc/Twitter: https://twitter.com/iDefend_ICSYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@industrialdefender7120Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it.

Michael Truscello, author of Infrastructural Brutalism: Art and the Necropolitics of Infrastructure, discusses the ways in which infrastructure determines who may live and who must die under contemporary capitalism. In this book, Michael Truscello looks at the industrial infrastructure not as an invisible system of connectivity and mobility that keeps capitalism humming in the background but as a manufactured miasma of despair, toxicity, and death. Truscello terms this “infrastructural brutalism”—a formulation that not only alludes to the historical nexus of infrastructure and the concrete aesthetic of Brutalist architecture but also describes the ecological, political, and psychological brutality of industrial infrastructures. Truscello explores the necropolitics of infrastructure—how infrastructure determines who may live and who must die—through the lens of artistic media. He examines the white settler nostalgia of “drowned town” fiction written after the Tennessee Valley Authority flooded rural areas for hydroelectric projects; argues that the road movie represents a struggle with liberal governmentality; considers the ruins of oil capitalism, as seen in photographic landscapes of postindustrial waste; and offers an account of “death train narratives” ranging from the history of the Holocaust to postapocalyptic fiction. Finally, he calls for “brisantic politics,” a culture of unmaking that is capable of slowing the advance of capitalist suicide. “Brisance” refers to the shattering effect of an explosive, but Truscello uses the term to signal a variety of practices for defeating infrastructural power. Brisantic politics, he warns, would require a reorientation of radical politics toward infrastructure, sabotage, and cascading destruction in an interconnected world. The open access edition of this book was made possible by generous funding from Arcadia – a charitable fund of Lisbet Rausing and Peter Baldwin. Hosted and produced by Sam Kelly; Mixed by Samantha Doyle; Soundtrack by Kristen Gallerneaux Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/new-books-network

Building a nuclear power plant is a difficult job. It takes years of planning and sometimes more than a decade to complete. The risk of schedule delays is great, especially on first-of-a-kind projects, and the financial implications of such setbacks can ruin a company. Yet, the Tennessee Valley Authority's (TVA's) president and CEO, Jeff Lyash, suggested the risk is worth taking, that is, if lessons learned from one project can be parlayed into success in future projects. That's why TVA is studying the addition of a small modular reactor (SMR) at its Clinch River site. Lyash envisions using that first unit as a template to eventually make Clinch River a four-unit site, and then replicating that design in at least four other locations within TVA's service territory. “I've said very vocally, I [want] nothing to do with building one reactor, unless I can build 20—and 20 is the low estimate—and so, this is what Clinch River is about,” Lyash said as a guest on The POWER Podcast. While TVA continues to support and examine all of the various SMR designs being proposed, and it is also following the development of Generation IV advanced nuclear technology, it has selected GE-Hitachi's (GEH's) BWRX-300 design for its Clinch River site. “We picked the BWRX-300 technology because the X stands for the 10th generation. We know this fuel works. We know this technology works,” Lyash said. Lyash noted that there are 50 years' worth of experience behind the GEH design. He said engineers have applied modularization processes and advanced manufacturing techniques to advance the design, but the technology behind it all is well-established. “This allows us to focus on what I think the risk is that's yet to be proven, and that is, can we finish a first-of-a-kind on schedule and on budget, and can we demonstrate the movement to nth-of-a-kind rapidly, and can we turn that into a fleet?” Lyash said. “We intend Clinch River to be a four-unit site,” Lyash explained. “There's an optimum way to build four units. It includes a lot of overlap—supply chain, labor, etc. That's what we want to develop, but we're going to ‘unlap' the first unit so that we can learn all those lessons, identify all those risks, and make units two and three and four look significantly better and different, so that when we build site two, three, and four, we've got that,” he said. TVA is a wholly owned U.S. government corporation created by Congress in 1933. It is the largest public power company in the country, providing electricity for 153 local power companies serving 10 million people in Tennessee and parts of six surrounding states, as well as directly to 58 large industrial customers and federal installations. Because of TVA's unique position as an entity of the federal government, Lyash believes it should be a leader for the power industry. “Because of TVA's special role, we're really doing it to support the nation, because what we'd really love to happen is fast followers,” he said. In other words, he hopes once TVA proves that an SMR can be constructed on time and on budget, other power companies will jump on the new nuclear construction bandwagon. Still, nuclear is not the only new generation TVA is pursuing. It also has plans to add at least 10,000 MW of new solar, as well as battery and pumped-hydro energy storage, and even some natural gas–fired generation to help bridge the gap as it phases out its coal generation by 2035. “We at TVA are very outcome focused, so we spend a lot of time talking about: ‘At the end of this trail, where is it we want to arrive at?' ” Lyash said. “It's about affordable energy that's reliable and resilient, and low-carbon.” To reach the desired outcome, Lyash said it would take renewables, nuclear, storage, demand-side management, and energy efficiency all in the right mix.

Today, we're hiking on the border of Tennessee and North Carolina, to the site of Fontana Dam. It's the tallest dam east of the Rocky Mountains. Constructed in the 1940s, the dam and its resulting reservoir flooded four towns and affected the daily lives and memories of many people. So, why was the dam built and what lies beneath the cool blue waters of Fontana Lake? Further Reading: “Fontana Dam, N.C.,” Appalachian Trail Conservancy “The History of Fontana Village,” Fontana Village Resort and Marina. “Interview with Commodore A. Casada, 11 November 2009,” interview by Rhydon T. Atzenhoffer, Oral Histories of Western North Carolina, Southern Appalachian Digital Collections. Archival Photographs of Fontana Village and Fontana Lake, Southern Appalachian Digital Collections. “Fontana,” Tennessee Valley Authority. “Tennessee Valley Authority Act (1933),” National Archives and Records Administration. Pete Seeger, "The TVA Song," Gazette, Vol. 1 (1958) Smithsonian Folkways Recordings https://folkways.si.edu/pete-seeger/gazette-vol-1/american-folk/music/album/smithsonian. 

Maggie Shober discusses how the Tennessee Valley Authority operates like a for-profit utility, despite its public ownership. Portions of this interview were released as part of last year's series on public power.… Read More

In this episode, Jennifer Garson of the Department of Energy's Water Power Technologies Office discusses the state of hydropower in the US and where the industry is headed.(a)(Active transcript)Text transcript:David RobertsFor decades, hydropower has been most common source of renewable electricity in the world. (In the US, it was passed by wind a few years ago.) Pumped hydro — large hydropower facilities in which water is pumped up and run down hill to store energy — remains the most common form of energy storage, both in the US and in the world.Even as the vast majority of media attention in the clean-energy world goes to wind and solar power, hydropower continues churning away in the background, generating and storing vast amounts of renewable energy.Hydro has a long and storied past, but does it have a future? What's going on with hydropower these days? Is there any prospect of building new dams or of finding more power in existing dams? What's going on with small hydropower, on rivers, streams, and reservoirs? And is ocean energy ever going to be a real thing?I've taken hydropower for granted for a long time, so I decided it was finally time to dig into these questions. To do so, I contacted Jennifer Garson, head of the Department of Energy's Water Power Technologies Office (WPTO). The WPTO oversees a sprawling network of prizes and grants meant to encourage hydro and marine energy projects. I talked with Garson about the future of large dams in the US, the promise of small-scale hydro for local communities, and the uncertain future of marine energy.Alright, with no further ado, Jennifer Garson, welcome to Volts. Thank you so much for coming.Jennifer GarsonThank you so much for having me.David RobertsAlright, so we normally normally here on Volts, we do the sort of deep dive into one thing. But this here we're going to attempt something slightly different, which is a broad overview of a fairly large category, larger than I think I appreciated before I started digging around and just try to get a sort of global sense of where it's at. Because I know that from my experience in clean energy, I've sort of, like, had hydro in the back of my head as kind of this steady presence, a little bit like nuclear, like a steady presence in the background, but not something where anything kind of dynamic or new is happening. And I think you probably disagree with that.So let's get into it. So just to start with, what are the technologies encompassed by the terms "hydro" and "marine energy" that your office covers? What is the remit?Jennifer GarsonYeah, so glad you asked that. And it is, sort of, just by nature of our office as we're structured that, we have two very interesting, but two very different types of water power technologies. So the first that you mentioned is hydropower. Hydropower really has been delivering power for the last 100 plus years. It's both the conventional hydropower, so very large behind the reservoir, big dams that people usually envision when they're thinking about hydro. We also have smaller non-powered dams that we power with hydropower. We also have run-of-river systems that actually have diversions in addition to dams, where you actually have water flowing to the side of the river. And then we also are thinking about hydropower. Even in conduits and canals, how do you use existing water infrastructure to provide power, whether it's for water treatment or irrigation, a whole number of different ways that you could use existing infrastructure for water power.Jennifer GarsonOn the other side of the portfolio, we have marine renewable energy. So while hydropower is probably the oldest form of renewable power — although potentially, arguably wind is too — marine renewable energy is the most nascent form of renewable energy. And that's really looking out to the power of the ocean. Everything from how do we kinetically capture power, how do we use gradients to capture power. So everything from tidal power, wave power, ocean thermal energy conversion, even salinity gradients and even pressure gradients, really looking at a multitude of ways of when you look out at the ocean and see all the power that's contained in it, how do we use different power capture systems to harness multitude of ways that the ocean generates power?David RobertsGot it. So water on land and water at sea ...Jennifer GarsonWater everywhere.David RobertsWater everywhere. So let's start then with big dams, because I think this is when you say hydropower, this is what springs to people's minds as sort of the conventional form. I think conventional wisdom is that we've got a lot of big dams in the US creating a lot of power and it's steady and it's good, but that's more or less it. And so this is my first question. It's just do you think we're going to build any more large dams in the US or large, dam-wise, are we basically tapped out?Jennifer GarsonSo that's a really excellent question. I think there's a general agreement that we are not going to be building. Any large dams on existing waterways. I think in terms of large conventional hydropower, we are most likely tapped out. Particularly here, I should say, in the United States. That isn't necessarily true elsewhere across the world.David RobertsRight.Jennifer GarsonWe do think about building other big structures like pump storage, but those have been now leaning more towards what we call closed-loop systems, which are two bodies of water connected, but they're usually constructed and fabricated bodies of water. They're not connected to an existing large river. So I think for the United States, we're not going to see any large behind the reservoir, conventional hydropower, big dams built on any of our riverways anytime soon.David RobertsAlso on the subject, I've heard conflicting things about the carbon emissions of big dams. I feel like there's been some new research lately that shows that those emissions are higher than we thought. Because you're disrupting a bunch of soil, you're creating a pool where things rot and produce methane. So what's our latest state of thinking on the large dams that exist? Are there large dams that exist that we think are less of a carbon asset than we thought, that we think need to be closed down for environmental reasons?Jennifer GarsonSo I think those are actually two separate questions, one is what is the science behind say, methane or reservoir emissions, particularly given vegetation? We are conducting studies right now at the Department of Energy really trying to understand what types of sensors and measurements are needed to either validate or invalidate that as a theory. I think that there's still unsettled research on the magnitude of the impact, also the timing of the impact. So the other thing that we talk about when thinking about reservoir emissions is, if you're talking about vegetation rot at the bottom of a reservoir for a dam or a facility that's been around for a long time, does it still hold that you have emissions or methane challenges? And I think we still need to do more research on both the kind of temporal nature and the magnitude of the problem. It's not to say that we think there's no problem at all or there's a major problem.I really think it's a critical research question that we are fundamentally trying to address with kind of true scientific method. On the environmental piece, there's obviously been a lot of both discussions and controversy about dam removal. And I would say even ten years ago, it was not a conversation that the hydropower industry was really actively engaged in or even potentially willing to engage in.Jennifer GarsonBut over the last few years, there's been a really interesting kind of convening between the environmental and the hydropower community actually under ... it's called "The Uncommon Dialogue", it was run by Stanford University that was really trying to get together the environmental and hydropower community to have tough conversations like dam removal, but also dam repair, rehabilitation, and retrofits. And we actually just announced a few weeks ago, through funding that we received under the bipartisan infrastructure law, that DOE is actually going to fund more participation in that uncommon dialogue stakeholder strategy sessions, so that we can really understand where some of the opportunities at both environmental benefits like flood management, temperature control, but also the types of tools and research that we need to understand, "What are some of the environmental implications either of leaving power dams in existence?"Dam removal isn't necessarily something that we do within DOE, but we do support this kind of ongoing dialogue between the environmental and hydropower community, because ultimately the future of hydropower needs to be one that is sustainable and compatible with both from a climate perspective and from an environmental perspective.David RobertsRight. Well, on the flip side of that, my other question is not all large dams in the US are producing power, and the ones that are powered aren't necessarily producing the maximum amount of power they could produce. So how much sort of runway do we have in powering existing dams or upgrading existing hydropower facilities?Jennifer GarsonYeah, so there's kind of a couple of pieces in there. One is that there are 90,000 dams in the United States, and only 3% actually have power.David RobertsOh, no kidding.Jennifer GarsonYeah.David RobertsIs it mainly small versus big is, like, the biggest ones have power and a bunch of smaller ones don't? Or is that not the dividing line?Jennifer GarsonIt really varies. It's not necessarily the big ones do, I mean, you think about some big dams that do have power. I think predominantly you're looking at small to medium-sized dams that aren't currently powered, and many of them were built for other reasons, like flood control, recreation, irrigation, you name it. But still, it's always been incredible to me to kind of dig into those numbers where you think that every dam must have hydro associated with it, and it doesn't.We've been doing a lot of research, looking at what are the attributes of non-powered dams that we could potentially tap into for power purposes; how do we take advantage of this existing infrastructure and potentially provide power to it? And so, only about the top 600 dams that we have have more than 1 megawatt of potential, but they account for, actually 90% of the total non-powered dam potential. The top hundred largest dams represent about 8 gigawatts, and the top ten represent about 3 gigawatts.Jennifer GarsonSo there is quite a bit of power even within those non-powered dams. And actually, from 2000 to 2020, there were actually 36 non-powered dams that were retrofitted that added about a half a gigawatt of capacity. But then you also talk about, what do we think about for the expansion of the existing hydropower fleet?Jennifer GarsonWe all know that hydropower right now accounts for about six and a half percent of total load nationwide, but the capacity expansion, even at looking at what do we do with the existing hydropower fleet that we have, you could actually have a combined growth of about 13 gigawatts of new hydropower generation capacity through existing plants, adding power to non-powered dams and some new stream reach. We had initial estimates of about 36 gigawatts potential for new pump storage hydro capacity, too.David RobertsSo there are then potentially gigawatts of new power to be had with dams that are already built?Jennifer GarsonYup.David RobertsAnd so why is it that already happening? Is it the economics? What needs to happen to really ... because we need all the clean power we can get, so it seems like this is something we should be pursuing unless there's something stopping us. So what are the barriers to making that happen?Jennifer GarsonI mean, the answer is it's complicated because it's very dependent upon the site that we're talking about. So it could be that adding existing capacity requires additional capital and if the capital gets too high is there a customer willing to pay for that higher price of electricity? There's also complications, especially for the existing fleet for relicensing. The relicensing process for hydropower is incredibly difficult. It's surmountable, but it is difficult.It's actually more difficult. We did a study about a year ago looking at the licensing and relicensing process for hydropower, and the number of agencies even involved in hydropower licensing actually exceeds that for nuclear.David RobertsTake that, nuclear-whiners.Jennifer GarsonExactly. Hydro has got it worse. But even with the challenges for licensing and finding capital, we still think that there's enormous promise by tapping into this existing generation fleet, particularly given the firm flexible, baseload generation power of renewables through hydropower, specifically. We even looked at a study looking at what's the black start capabilities that hydropower currently provides. Right now it's 40% of the black start capabilities is actually provided by hydro.David RobertsInteresting.Jennifer GarsonAnd whether you're talking about spinning reserves, ancillary services, other grid services, I think we're going to need to both expand what we have in our existing fleet, but also maintain that existing fleet in order to provide the critical services that we need as more renewables come online.David RobertsOne of the big worries in nuclear is you've got these plants that are up and running and they're scheduled to close, basically. And so there's all this agita about we've got this clean power, we're about to take it off grid. It's crazy. Are any of our big dams scheduled to close or are they more or less like can run forever as long as you maintain them?Jennifer GarsonAgain, it depends. Some are subject to licensing and relicensing. Also half of the hydropower fleet is actually federal, so part of it will stay online as long as the federal government wants to maintain those dams. But the threat of licensing or the threat of not being able to get through the relicensing process for our existing fleet could leave up to about 50% of our fleet in the next ten years is up for relicensing. We don't get that through relicensing. That means we lose a substantial amount of our power if they can't get through the regulatory process. And so we're trying to focus on even things like how do we improve the environmental performance of existing dams? How do you really think creatively about some of the upgrades that could expand some of those grid capabilities? Because if you're going to take a facility that's been online and it's been load following, it's really for keeping the lights on.Jennifer GarsonHow do you change the operational nature of those plants to also provide those grid services without degrading the existing hardware at those facilities? It's a totally new operating environment, one that we can almost take advantage of the relicensing process and do these types of upgrades, but it does mean that we have to get that non federal fleet through the relicensing process in order to keep them online.David RobertsThis story of excess bureaucracy and paperwork slowing things down pops up ...Jennifer GarsonEverywhere!David RobertsEveryone I talk to.Jennifer GarsonYes, sadly, but I will say we've actually seen a lot of interest on the Hill, on Capitol Hill, over the last probably two years, I'd say through a bipartisan nature at thinking about some of the challenges and opportunities in particular on hydropower regulatory reform. Now we again at DOE really just take a sort of analytical approach to understanding what that regulatory process looks like and how it exists. But even last spring there was actually a Hill committee meeting specifically on the regulatory process. It was actually in a follow on a Hill committee staff meeting that was specifically on hydro last January. So I think there's both a recognition that something needs to change and I think potentially some momentum behind trying to really take a hard look at what the hydropower fleet has to go through from a regulatory perspective.David RobertsYeah, I guess it just strikes me it would be a little crazy for us when we're in this mad scramble for clean power and we have this infrastructure, a lot of which is already built, that we could just get a lot more clean power out of that we're not going for it, Gangbusters. final question about large dams, which is one of the things you hear about the future of hydropower is the threat of climate change itself and the threat of droughts and the threat basically of hydro output, which has typically been fairly reliable, becoming more sort of unpredictable and variable and a little bit less reliable. Is that something you think about a lot?Jennifer GarsonSo actually last year we conducted a really comprehensive look at the effects of drought on hydropower generation in the United States. So we did a couple of different analyses, but I'll touch on this one first. Drought obviously can and has impacted hydropower in the west, but if you actually look at it from a fleet wide perspective, the Western hydropower fleet still sustained 80% of its average generation during the worst drought this century. Now, that was a lot of times reliant on what you had as storage behind the reservoir and so we are doing a second order analysis to say what happens when you have less reservoir ability to really do an overall assessment. But there are so many smaller subregions in the west that still they don't typically always have drought super decentralized. It's usually essentialized in certain areas. So it is certainly a threat and we have a lot of work, I think, that we've been doing it. How do we look at from a forecasting perspective, not just looking at hind-cast models, don't use past as precedents, also look to the future for future climactic modeling and how do we begin to plan from both a climate resiliency perspective?Jennifer GarsonWhat are the localized impacts going to be on individual sites? But when you look at it from a fleetwide perspective thus far, we actually haven't seen that much of a decline in power production across the west. That's because sometimes where we have more acute drought in some regions, we might have an abundance of water in others. If you take a look at even California, whether it's through the impact of atmospheric rivers or a historic snow pack.David RobertsThe snowpack they've got now historic highs. Is there going to be an abundance of hydropower next year?Jennifer GarsonIt certainly could help make sure that there is a reliable amount of water to help sustain hydropower production. There's a lot of hydropower in California, but I think we still have more work to be done on both what's the forecasting and looking at snowpack melt and what it's going to mean for a next season's. Hydropower availability and how do we plan not just on a year to year basis, but over a longer period of time? So we're committing a lot of resources towards this hydrologic and climate science analysis. We also just did the most comprehensive assessment through Oak Ridge National Laboratory, it's called. And this is because of the Secure Water Act, the 9505 assessment, which really looked at an analysis of hydropower generation affected by long term climate change, specifically at the Power Marketing Administration.Jennifer GarsonAnd our most recent report, which we actually just published last year, is that long term average runoff and hydropower generation are actually projected to slightly increase across the continental US, but some summer runoff is projected to decrease by the mid 21st century. So you're talking about seasonal change and so that will require us to think about storage in different ways when we can rely on hydropower. Do you shift the kind of seasonal expectation of it really fitting summer loads and potentially more in spring or even winter loads? But maintaining that flexibility and operation is going to be a key challenge, whether it's because of projected seasonal availability or just water management strategies or just the fact that when you look at it from a purely sort of quantitative perspective, our ability to know where water goes is not nearly as sophisticated right now as where electricity goes.Like, our sensors and measurements are so far behind that which you see in the electricity sector that we feel like there's a lot of opportunity to increase sensors, monitoring and models to be incorporated into hydropower forecasting so that we have more predictability and a better understanding of just how climate change is going to impact hydropower availability. It's not to say that it's going to be easy, it's just it's more complicated than what you would imagine just looking at pictures of drought in the west.David RobertsSo let's talk about then smaller scale hydro on rivers, streams, canals, conduits, smaller forms of river. I've heard about these sort of in the background for many, many years. As far as I can tell, it hasn't really amounted to much. And just like intuitively, when I think about building like a little dam or a little generator just for the amount of power that's coming through a stream or a river, it sounds like a lot of infrastructure for a small amount of power. So I wonder about the economics. So maybe you just tell us what is the deal with small scale hydro?Is it a real thing? Is it growing or shrinking? Is there a lot of potential there? What do we know about it?Jennifer GarsonSure, I want to just set a little bit of context.Jennifer GarsonWhen we talk about small hydropower, we're talking about anything between as small as 100 kilowatts, all the way up to 10 megawatts.David RobertsGot it.Jennifer GarsonAnd, we do have this picture that large-scale hydropower is really the predominant form of power. But actually, 72% of our hydropower fleet — it's almost 1,700 plants out of the almost 2,300 total plants — produce less than 10 megawatts apiece. So even though it may be more obvious that we think about hydropower as large, it's actually almost 3.65 gigawatts of hydropower capacity is actually small.And I think that when you think about these small hydropower facilities, a lot of times they're in places that it's serving a local load or it's serving a direct facility. And so, to me, I think the value of these smaller facilities is how they're providing power to local customers. Many of them are owned even by what you would consider more like mom and pop hydropower operators. But also when we think about the potential for non-powered dam development — so we talked a little bit earlier about, "Are the big non-powered dams big or are they small?" — 71% of the potential for non-powered dam development is actually in small dams with small reservoirs. So it may not be a simple form of power capture, but there really is a lot of potential untapped through non-powered dams.And then you talked a little bit about run-of-river. The run-of-river potential is also there. We have been talking to different communities that are considering run-of-river systems for power. And a lot of times soon we're thinking about some of these small power dams. We get approached a lot by say, communities in Alaska where they're looking at what are their power potential in places where they're not going to be able to harness solar on a year-long perspective or be able to potentially get wind reliably. And so some of these small hydropower facilities in more kind of remote and isolated areas could provide really meaningful power to places that may not have another form of renewable energy accessible to decarbonize their systems. And to me, that's just as meaningful as adding big, huge gigawatts everywhere.Jennifer GarsonWe need to add big, huge gigawatts everywhere of renewables. But I think the potential for some of these smaller hydropower facilities could be incredibly meaningful. We also even just did an assessment last year, looking at underserved and distressed communities in the Appalachia region, where could you power non-power dams and add different forms of storage to provide almost essentially quality-base load power. And there were quite a few sites where you could provide reliable, relatively cheap power for these communities.Jennifer GarsonNow, when it comes to the economics, it is more expensive when you look at it from a per megawatt basis. But when I think about the critical value of having hydropower serve, essentially, around the clock, I think this is where we think about decarbonizing everything from the electricity sector. We're going to have to have a higher willingness to pay for firm, flexible power.I think, when we're thinking about the economics of small scale hydropower, we think about it in a couple of different ways. One is, what is that power going to provide at that small scale? When you're thinking about it as a firm baseload power, is it providing power to places that might not have otherwise access to renewable electricity or a clean grid? Is it in combination to with, say, a solar array and storage? We've seen a couple of small hydropower developers who are looking at it as almost like a mini micro-grid with hydro as the small baseload power. And so rather than it just being the project economics is just the hydropower facility itself, thinking about it from a project perspective: hydro with storage plus solar. And how do you think about it within that overall kind of portfolio context and not just the facility itself? That being said, funding these types of projects is not easy, whether it's because of the licensing or relicensing process or because of the high capital costs.David RobertsIs that a hassle for small run-of-river stuff too, the licensing stuff?Jennifer GarsonSure, you still need a license to operate. There are some exceptions, but you typically still need to get a license from FERC. But they have been trying especially for non-power dams and closed lip pump storage. FERC has been trying to have an accelerated permitting for these types of facilities. So the new stream reach, which is where there's no dam, that's a little bit more complicated, but for powering non-powered dams, FERC and other partners have recognized that there's already essentially been disruption to the local ecosystem. So you're not talking about a complete new build, you're talking about adding infrastructure to existing infrastructure.But it also depends on who the owner of the dam is. A lot of developers are actually looking at powering non-powered dams that are owned by the Army Corps or the Bureau of Reclamation, trying to take advantage of existing infrastructure that's already been built by the federal government and add power. And there are a number of developers that are trying to think about developing these non-power dams through a portfolio of different non-power dams. So rather than treating it as a kind of one off project, how do they do kind of feasibility analysis, looking at a number of different non-power dams of power and treating it more like a portfolio package of power.And that is different from the way that we've traditionally financed non-powered dams. I still think we have a way to go, and we're actually about to set out on a study with the National Renewable Energy Laboratory and Deloitte to really look at the investment landscape in hydropower. Because ever since I've been in this space, I've always heard that investment in hydropower is really hard. But when you start asking the second order question of why, you kind of get a jumbled answer of, "It's the licensing, it's the customers, it's the PPA."So we're really trying to put a lot of rigor behind, "How do we get more momentum into developing non-powered dams? How do we try to increase the investment appetite to looking at these types of facilities and facility buildouts, whether it's expanding existing capacity at hydropower facilities or small hydropower through non-powered dams, to really fill that gap that we see 10-20 years down the line of the need for firm, flexible power resources." So I think we're in the midst of a changing investment landscape, too, about how do you value firm power?David RobertsRight. So it's fair to say then, when it comes to the smaller hydro on rivers and such, it's not so much the raw sort of like dollar per megawatt where you find the value. It's more in the firmness, right, which we don't fully value yet, but will, I think, soon. And the local benefits, local resilience and stuff like that.Jennifer GarsonYeah. And even so, we just did a demonstration last year in Idaho Falls, the Idaho Falls Power, and they were looking at how do they optimize their smaller run of river hydropower systems and tried to see whether or not adding some sort of storage medium. Ultimately, it was super capacitors. But if they add a storage medium to those smaller facilities, can they actually provide black start capabilities for their local community, recognizing that they're tied into a larger grid? And if the larger grid goes down, they don't want to lose access to the electricity they need for critical services.Jennifer GarsonAnd so it's thinking about, too, in the context of some of these smaller projects, can you use them to help jumpstart the grid or provide more consistent power or provide a more predictable load for electricity consumption? But I still think it is still higher on a project economics of $70 a megawatt, roughly. But what we're trying to really dig into is what is the value inherent between, say, the $20 per megawatt you would see for solar and the 70 for hydro? Are there enough services and economics behind that higher threshold to really kind of catalyze investment into that space?How do you provide that investment theory that shows why it's really important that some power you're going to have to pay more for?David RobertsThere's probably a ton more to talk about there, but we have other things to hit, one of which is storage. I think Volts listeners are probably savvy enough at this point to know that the vast, vast bulk of existing energy storage is in the form of what's called pumped hydro storage, which is basically just you pump water uphill when you have power, and then when you need power, you run the water downhill through generators. Pretty simple. This is how we do most of our energy storage today. So one of the things that people say about pumped hydro is that it is geography dependent.You have to find the right body of water in the right place with the right whatevers. So I'm curious, have we built out the sort of traditional pumped hydro that is possible or is there more room sort of same question about the large dams. Is there more room to build new pumped hydro and is there more room to get more capacity out of existing pumped hydro facilities? I know we have this new technology that's closed-loop pump hydro, which we'll talk about in a second. But just in terms of the traditional kind, is that tapped out or is there more to be had there?Jennifer GarsonYeah, put it in order of magnitude. About 93% of the long duration storage or even just storage capabilities. Right now on the grid is pump storage. And that's actually just from 43 pump storage plants.David RobertsThey're very big.Jennifer GarsonThey're very big. They were actually originally built to complement nuclear.David RobertsInteresting.Jennifer GarsonYeah. So now we're thinking about what's going to complement next or continue to complement nuclear. But when you think about even the potential in our existing fleet, between 2010 and 2019, we added 1.3 gigawatts of PSH capacity just at the existing facilities that we already have online.David RobertsInteresting. That's a lot.Jennifer GarsonIt's almost the same amount as all other energy storage types combined that were added at that period of time. Yeah. So just making these capacity upgrades is huge.David RobertsHow do you add capacity? Is it bigger pipes, bigger pumps? Is there any magic to that?Jennifer GarsonBigger pumps, different turbines, different upgrades to better not impede flow, even management practices utilizing it more. So even some of our storage facilities aren't necessarily utilized to their full capacity. And so you usually either need better control systems or kind of control strategies or equipment upgrades or environmental upgrades. There's a multitude of different upgrades that can happen to add capacity at our pump storage facilities.David RobertsAnd that's ongoing. There's still more. There's more to be had there.Jennifer GarsonThere definitely is more to be had. But I actually also want to point out we have typically thought of pump storage as these big open-loop systems. So you mentioned closed-loop. All of our facilities right now are open-loop, which means they're connected to existing waterways and rivers. So if you looked at where are we going to have big diversions from big existing waterways to other storage medium to other reservoirs, that's probably more limited. But we actually just did a whole assessment on pump storage resource characterization and resource assessment here in the US and found there's actually 15,000 additional sites for pump storage development.David RobertsOh, good grief. And that's the open-loop kind you're talking about.Jennifer GarsonThat's closed-loop, actually, specifically. Closed-loop, there are more than 15,000 sites that you could actually have for additional facilities to be brought online. And there are some major closed-loop facilities that are getting pretty close in the regulatory process, and we've actually been working with some of those sites through our pump storage valuation project where we were looking at what's the cost benefit analysis and return for these different types of closed-loop systems.David RobertsExplain what a closed-loop system is just so people get it.Jennifer GarsonIt's basically very simple mechanical energy. You have an upper reservoir, so basically an upper ground tank, for lack of a better term. It could be at the top of a mountain, it could be at the top of a hill, but you need some sort of head so it can run down. But you have a top reservoir and a bottom reservoir and basically pipes that connect between the two. And when you have excess electricity, electricity pumps the water from the lower reservoir up to the upper reservoir. And when you need that power, you run that water right back through the turbines to go back down to the lower reservoir. So it's just basically mechanical movement of water between two bodies of water.David RobertsAnd so if you can create your own reservoirs, then all you really need, geographically, is a hill.Jennifer GarsonCorrect.David RobertsAnd there are lots of hills.Jennifer GarsonWe got a lot of hills.David RobertsWhat about underground? I feel like I've seen this bandied about where you just dig a hole and sort of use the surface of the earth as your upper reservoir and the hole as your lower reservoir. Is that a thing?Jennifer GarsonYeah. We've been working with a couple of different companies that are looking at underground reservoirs. There are ideas, everything from utilizing old mines, which there's some worry about from a geotechnical perspective. Will you actually have enough stability to have an upper reservoir and then the lower reservoir in the mine? But there is potential. But then there are companies like Quidnet who is essentially injecting water underground and using it to come back up and spin through a turbine for more modular underground pump storage. So I think there's definitely opportunity both above and below the ground. It just all really depends on sort of the geotechnical feasibility, site availability and just what are you going to get from round trip efficiency for different types of power?David RobertsWell, this closed-loop pump storage seems like a huge opportunity. Do we know, I mean, if there isn't any built yet, do we know what its economics are going to be relative to other storage possibilities?Jennifer GarsonYes, we know the economics pretty well. I mean, obviously the economics has changed as with every other storage technology out there with the inflation reduction act passage. But we have done a lot on sort of valuation from a per megawatt perspective. How much would you pay for these newer closed-loop pump storage facilities? The biggest challenge with anything pump storage-related is the high capital cost at the beginning of a project. And so where some of the project economics get a little more complicated is: are you looking at a ten-year payback period for storage or are you looking at it from ... some of these assets can last 100 years.Like what's the appetite when thinking about entering into a PPA or building out a project? And there's also the complication — and this is similar to other forms of storage: Are you generation or are you transmission? Are you deferral or are you providing that power? How does your power count essentially within a PPA? The other challenge is too is oftentimes when we're looking at some of these bigger closed-loop pump storage systems, you're building them to complement renewables that haven't come online yet. So how do you also enter into types of contracts?You're like, "Hey, we want to build this facility because there's going to be a ton of wind and solar." And if there isn't a ton of wind and solar, it's like, well, we actually need that storage. So you run into this chicken and egg scenario. What do you build first? A big closed-loop pump storage facility that's going to take seven to ten years to commission? Do you wait for the intermittent renewables to come online to a point where you need the storage? Or do you really start to look now at thinking about what does your grid look like in ten years and take a more long-term capital risk to build out some of these larger things?David RobertsWeird planning for the future. What a thought. When we think about the potential, if there are 15, what did you say ... ?Jennifer Garson15,000.David Roberts... sites where closed-loop pumped hydro could work, then do we know what sort of capacity that represents? I mean, that's a lot of storage.Jennifer GarsonIt's a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot of gigawatts. Now that's the site feasibility. The practical feasibility of how much could we actually develop is something that we're analyzing right now because it was only just last year that we decided to kind of reopen the book on, okay, let's not just thinking about it from where we see site developers coming in and applying FERC permits, FERC licenses, where others are really trying to determine where the best sites are suited. Let's use an analytical perspective to say, where, from a geographical perspective, could you feasibly build closed-loop pump storage?But we're working on a second order analysis to kind of scrub, what does it look like from a total, not just technical feasibility, but practical feasibility of how much pump storage we could add? Because we don't want to say that it's going to be thousands of gigawatts without really having some analysis behind it. But we are really looking at this through both a hydrofuture study and a pump storage study that we'll have going pretty soon to look at that total, feasible storage that we can actually capture through closed-loop pump storage.David RobertsBecause you hear all these talks about long duration storage, all this buzz, people are banding about all kinds of wacky technologies and possibilities, but you just don't hear pumped-hydro mentioned a lot in those discussions.Jennifer GarsonI think ...David RobertsNeed better PR.Jennifer GarsonWe do need better PR. We need better PR and all forms of water power technologies — no offense to the technologies I care about a whole lot. But no, you're right. A lot of times we're talking about long-duration storage technologies that are still kind of bench-scale prototypes. And it's things that I fundamentally believe in. But I actually, before I was in the waterpower office, spent a majority of my career in DOE on commercialization, and I've seen how long it takes for products to get from a lab prototype to bench scale to first of a pilot to actual commercializable technologies.And my concern is if we bank all of our long-duration storage needs on technologies that are still at that pilot or commercial demo scale, we may run into kind of a tipping point on the grid where we really need what works now. But I do think that there has been more momentum both here and abroad looking at pump storage as a practical solution. And even Secretary Granholm has expressed interest in pump storage. The Loan Guarantee office is also looking at pump storage. So I do think they're slowly but surely gaining more momentum at the potential feasibility for pump storage.We're even working now with the Tennessee Valley Authority actually looking at pump storage. Duke is looking at pump storage. I just talked to someone in Pennsylvania, in the governor's office, that's also looking at pump storage. So I think as people are looking at the practicalities of the grid, 10 to 15 years out, if we really are going to scale wind and solar, we need to start planning for storage facilities now. And the reality is that closed-loop pump storage can work. You do have high capital costs. There are geotechnical concerns, but we know that it works because it's a water battery.You're pushing water up the hill to let it come back down. We know how to do that.David RobertsVery simple.Jennifer GarsonWe've been doing that a long time.David RobertsFinal question about water as storage, which is just, and this might be kind of a naive or a silly question, but it just seems like in the future, one of the things you're constantly hearing about is water is going to become more scarce. Basically, there's a lot of competing demands for water, and climate change is messing up a lot of our sort of seasonal water provision and just there's going to be water wars, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So I'm just wondering, is that something you worry about, using water for this versus using water for other things? Do you think water itself is going to become sort of contested and difficult to get your hands on?Jennifer GarsonI mean, I think clean potable water is a challenge that we are definitely going to face as a country and as a world. I mean, as a country, we're actually pretty privileged to have pretty abundant freshwater resources. Now, whether or not those would be clean enough to drink I think is a key outstanding question. But in places like the Pacific Northwest and New England and even the Midwest, water availability isn't necessarily the top concern.Is it in the West? Yes. We actually wonder sometimes, or have been analyzing the potential for almost water abundance in areas where we don't want to have too much water because of flooding concerns or extreme events. So there's the kind of flip side of that, is it's not just about lack of water availability. Are we also building out infrastructure that can withstand higher forces of water, particularly through rivers and streams and waterways? But if you're looking at things like closed-loop pump storage, you're not going to have a ton of evaporative loss. So when you have these storage facilities, you're not really competing for fresh water availability.You're just trying to keep the reservoirs filled. And that is very different than trying to have the water needs for, say, fossil fuel plants or even nuclear, which have pretty high intensity water needs. But on fresh water availability, that's something that on the marine side of our portfolio that we think about as a potential for wave power to actually address, is the delivery of potable water. Because I do worry a lot about our ability to provide continuous fresh potable water for not just here in the United States, but abroad.David RobertsRight. Well, you've set up my segue perfectly then. So let's talk about the other side of your portfolio, which is energy in the ocean and how to get it out of the ocean. This is another area where I feel like it gives me like cellulosic biofuels vibes in that there's like super exciting ten years out and then was like super exciting ten years out 20 years ago and still super exciting ten years out. Is there —Jennifer GarsonIt's like fusion! No.David RobertsNot that bad. Come on now. Not that bad. I'm wondering, is there reason to think that any of these ocean technologies are any closer than they were ten years ago? Is this a real thing? And maybe just also, while you're at it, tell us, what are those technologies? I know there's tidal. I know there's something with buoys going up and down. There are probably others. What are we talking about in the ocean? And is it real? Is it really going to happen?Jennifer GarsonI think I wouldn't be directing a program for marine renewable energy. If I didn't think it was real, I'd probably try to find myself another job. No, the second question you actually asked is what are we talking about in terms of marine energy? And so the biggest sort of marine energy capture that we concentrate on are waves, tides, and then river and ocean currents. So the big buoys that falls into sort of the wave category, you can have everything from bottom mounted flaps that are trying to capture wave power to surface riding systems to systems that are within the water column.So the complication with waves, there really hasn't been a kind of convergence on the right structure or even where in the water column is most optimal for a power capture system. But I would say unlike even ten years ago where wave energy, you had a couple of projects that were out in Europe, we now are seeing an increasing number of in water deployments of wave energy systems, and it's working. So I would say here in the United States, we just had the longest wave energy demonstration project off of the Scripps Pier in California with Calwave, where they were producing electricity using the power of waves. And they even were able to sustain through a pretty powerful storm surge because that's always really complicated matter for waves, is being able to withstand a range of different forces.David RobertsRight. Well, this is what comes to mind. Intuitively, out in the ocean is just a brutal place. You got the wind and the tides and the storms, but also just saltwater corrosion and I don't know, fish. There's so many things to deal with. Are they being dealt with?Jennifer GarsonI think this isn't the first time we've dealt with infrastructure in the ocean either.David RobertsRight.Jennifer GarsonIt's hard, but it's not insurmountable. We're talking about materials for corrosion. We're doing research and even looking at can you use different methods to reduce corrosion impacts? Everything from coatings and materials to even the use of lasers for different etchings into materials to reduce corrosion? Biofouling is an issue. I mean, there's a lot of stuff that grows on infrastructure that's in the ocean, but we're trying to work on a multitude of ways for us to address or even potentially embrace biofouling from an environmental perspective. We do a lot in environmental monitoring around these devices. We put a substantial amount of funding on trying to understand the interaction of mammals, fish species, both from an acoustics perspective to any sort of entanglement perspective.And thus far, with our in water deployments, we're actually seeing compatibility instead of conflict. From an environmental perspective, that's because we're trying to design these systems with the environment in mind. But it is a hard environment. But the thing is, waves, tides, they're more predictable than other forms of electricity. So if we're really trying to hit our 100% decarbonization goals in 2050 or beyond, we're going to need solutions like marine energy in order to actually hit those targets.David RobertsTides come in every day.Jennifer GarsonTides come in every day. And actually on the West Coast, waves are predictable because you're talking about predicting waves that are coming basically from Asia. We have waves. I'm serious. It's why actually wave energy is almost easier on the west coast of Europe as it is sort of the West Coast or here for the United States because we have pretty complex models that actually can give us forecast for what our wave conditions are going to be like. So it gives us some good sense of predictability. Tides definitely 100% predictable. Unless the moon changes, which who knows?David RobertsWho knows? What does tidal energy look like? What do those machines look like?Jennifer GarsonSo there are a couple of different types of device designs right now in tidal energy. You're seeing more of a convergence on what tidal energy systems might or could look like, particularly looking both in the US and out in the EU. Some of them, like Verdant Power, which we supported a demonstration in New York, would look familiar to any of your listeners. It looks almost like tiny wind turbines on a triblade that goes underneath the water. So it's using the same kind of findings from wind of running a turbine, generating electricity, providing it to shore. There are other systems that are surface riding.So there are some European companies and Canadian companies that essentially have the operations and maintenance basically on the surface and then have turbines that go and submerge underneath the water, but they're still running either two or three blade turbines to capture power. So it's taking a lot of the lessons that were already learned in the wind industry and applying it for tidal power. And tidal power, I mean, we believe it a lot for here in the United States. Is it the largest resource to capture? No, that's wave. But there's a lot of tidal energy in New England, in the Pacific Northwest, and in particular in Alaska, where the potential resource is pretty massive.So actually we are in the next coming weeks, we have a notice of intent out already on this, but we're going to be funding a $45 million solicitation focused on tidal energy here in the United States. So both a commercial site with about $35 million and also for remote and islanded communities, and isolated communities another 10 million. So I think the the maturity of the tidal industry is definitely more mature right now than wave, but I think wave is starting to catch up. But if you look over at Europe again, they've had gigawatt hours of power provided by tidal energy at some of these sites that have already been delivered to the grid.So it may not always be as visible. Maybe it's because it's underneath the ocean or just on top of the ocean, but there's a lot of technological progress that we see in tidal and I see in the very near term for wave.David RobertsAnd this is in financial terms the same challenge basically you're facing with all these other technologies we're talking about, which is high upfront capital costs and then that pay off over a very long period of time, which is just always a difficulty when you're talking about financing.Jennifer GarsonIt is. And one of the challenges, too, for marine energy, and it's similar, I would say, to newer geothermal energy or long-duration storage, is in order to prove that it works, you have to be willing to fund some pretty serious demonstrations. And that takes a lot of capital that oftentimes, say, venture or even philanthropic capital isn't necessarily willing to take a risk on. Because to prove that the marine energy works, you have to get it in the ocean. And putting things in the ocean is a non-insubstantial cost. And so we're really trying to think about how do we demonstrate these systems take a lot of the risk and ownership on the US federal government in a way that we think will ultimately pay off. But that willingness to pay for demos or demonstrations of arrays is still going to be pretty high until you get to economies at scale.And so we either have to bet big, which I really hope we do here in the US, or we leave potentially this enormous 57% of all US power generation potential in the US stranded because you don't have that willingness to pay for these really expensive demos. But those demos are the only way we learn.David RobertsDidn't we just pass a bunch of legislation that is basically fire hosing money at all these things? Is some of that money going to do what you're just talking about going to kind of kickstart marine and tidal?Jennifer GarsonSo in the bipartisan infrastructure law, we did receive about $110 billion for marine renewable energy, $40 of that is for our national marine energy centers and the other $70.4 was actually for marine energy. But if you look at that in comparison to say, the funding that we're putting into direct air capture or hydrogen, it's nowhere near the level of investment that we've received from the federal government. And it's not just ... for us, I think we've seen the same thing for sustainable aviation fuel demonstrations or geothermal demonstrations, like, I think there are still a number of technologies that's going to take a lot of capital in order to really demonstrate the feasibility and get to economies at scale that weren't necessarily funded with the enormous lug of funding that we got now. There's a lot of money going around, and it's very exciting for me as someone who's been at DOE for 13 years, but it's not going to be sufficient, I think, for really driving down the cost of the whole portfolio of solutions that we're going to need to decarbonize everything by 2050.David RobertsWell, and the loan office plays some role there and there's supposedly going to be a green bank did that end up making it in? I forget what ... I think the Green Bank made it in. So maybe there'll be some ongoing sources for some of this funding.Jennifer GarsonTotally agree. And we work with our Loan Guarantee Office partners to understand what are those pathways into kind of commercial viability that. And we are also working with the Office of Clean Energy Demonstrations to understand what's the role of the Water Power Office at Derisking. Some of these pilot technologies moving into an office like the demonstration office and eventually being well primed for the Loan Guarantee Program office, because LPO really wants to see that these technologies have been successful at a pre-commercial scale. But even that gap between pilot and pre-commercial scale for some of these energy systems is more complex than just one off projects.But we're thinking about it critically at having kind of an all of DOE approach to derisking and investing in these technologies and ultimately helping them scale.David RobertsThe one marine technology we didn't mention is ocean thermal something something.Jennifer GarsonOTEC is the acronym. It's Ocean Thermal Energy Conversion.Jennifer GarsonYes.David RobertsRight. I feel like I've been hearing that about that also for years and years and years and it never seems to amount to much. Is that going to, well, first of all, tell listeners what the heck we're talking about, but is that going to be a thing?Jennifer GarsonSo OTEC, for anybody who isn't as familiar with all forms of marine energy, is basically using the thermal differentiation between the warmer surface water and the deep sea cool water to, essentially, use that to harness power, without getting into more technical details.OTEC is also really hard. The round-trip efficiencies that we've seen for OTEC have been not awesome, but there are a number of sites that are looking at both. How do we potentially use seawater air cooling, so more like ambient temperatures instead of for power generation. There are some OTEC facilities too, particularly in the Pacific Islands. It is so geographically specific for OTEC feasibility. You really need to have a pretty quick drop off of the continental shelf in order to actually have that really cold deep water and warm surface water. So it's geographically constrained. The round-trip efficiency right now still needs a lot of work and similar to the story of other types of marine energy in order to do demos, it takes a lot of capital.But I know that there are developers looking in like Puerto Rico and Hawaii looking at the feasibility of OTEC. So I wouldn't discount it. It's just it faces some of the same challenges. But we've also been looking at even, can you lessen the amount of gradients that you need to think about Ocean Thermal Energy Capture? So we're actually working with a startup that is trying to use smaller gradients to power ocean observing systems. So if it can power it by essentially dropping the system down not that far, and using the same principle of warm to low generating power, maybe we can think about gradients in a different way, to not just be the really big, really deep pipes that are trying to run from the surface down to the deep ocean.David RobertsOne more thing about marine energy. Tell us what is the connection between marine energy and desalination? Or what is the, let's say, the hoped for connection between marine energy and desalination? Because I often hear them kind of discussed in the same breath.Jennifer GarsonSo over the last few years, we've really been looking at the potential for how would wave energy provide potable water. It started actually with analysis that we did at the National Renewable Energy Lab, looking at the feasibility from a power perspective. Does the power performance potential for waves, is it potentially compatible with reverse osmosis or for desalination processes? And interestingly enough, we found that it could actually be a good power source. So we actually developed a prize competition called waves to water prize, where we basically opened the aperture to say, there's only a limited number of ideas here.Can you bring us some really good ideas for wave power desalination, but starting small for things like disaster relief and recovery scenarios? Ultimately, over the course of three years, we developed systems that were both hydraulic, so kind of mechanically driven, and production of electricity to run RO systems. And what we saw through that prize, and now a subsequent $10 million solicitation that we're running right now, is there are a number of really promising solutions that, particularly on the hydraulic side, although some of the electricity, but using essentially the power of waves to run through membranes to desalinate water.David RobertsI have a super dumb question here, which is I'm picturing these wave machines out in the middle of the ocean. Are they producing clean water like on-site? Do you have to go harvest the water from the machine? How does the delivery of the water from the machine to where it's needed work?Jennifer GarsonGreat question. The answer right now is maybe both. I think it's more feasible to imagine that essentially the reverse osmosis system is running. You're basically pumping water back to an onshore reverse osmosis system in a high pressure pump. And so you're getting the fresh water at a tank act, actually at a pier or on the shore. So you're essentially just using piping systems so that the water delivery is onshore. There are some companies that are thinking about almost like bladders to be filled out for production in the more near shore. You're not looking at right now, like, really deep offshore, but could you collect water through these bladders, have some sort of collection methodology, and bring it back to shore?So I think we're both looking at kind of on device production and essentially the system just being a conduit for either that power mechanical force to run a reverse osmosis system onshore. We're hopefully going to see over the next couple of years we're going to be funding a number of demos and we're seeing a number of demos also pop up in Europe in particular at looking at wave power decal. But I think we're going to need solutions for desalination that doesn't just require either really big, large energy systems or only diesel generators because we're going to need fresh water everywhere.And we're trying to think about the simplicity of design of some of these systems so that you can essentially just throw them out in the water with an anchor and be able to provide potable fresh water.David RobertsThat would be nice.Jennifer GarsonIt'd be awesome. Yeah, use the water to make water. What could be more simple but elegant if we can make it work?David RobertsSo on marine energy, then, as you said at the beginning, this is unlike hydro. Marine is in a sense among the newest or nascent or sort of cutting edge versions of renewable energy. So I guess before we leave this subject, I'm just curious, the next decade in marine energy, do you expect it to reach meaningful scale in that decade or is the next decade mainly going to be about figuring it out? Sort of like where do you expect marine energy to be in ten years?Jennifer GarsonIt's a complex answer I think when you're talking about grid scale marine energy devices. I think it'll take us the next ten years to really figure it out, get these systems in and out of the water and really producing larger volumes of electricity. But what I think the next decade really holds, it's really interesting, is the possibility of marine energy powering. What maybe from an energy perspective seems less meaningful, but from an end use perspective is incredibly meaningful. And what do I mean by that? I think we're seeing a lot of interesting solutions for powering, things like ocean observing.We know more about the surface of Mars than we do about the surface of our ocean floor and part of that is because of power limitations. And so we're working on a number of different companies that are either using kind of fixed platforms or floating platforms to provide power where we need it and that's to both understand and observe our ocean.David RobertsInteresting.Jennifer GarsonAnd I think over the next ten years you're going to see a lot of different devices that are harnessing power for ocean observing. There's also been a lot of meaningful progress at sort of the micro-grid scale for marine energy, whether it's tidal or it's wave energy, where we actually have a device up in a community of only 75 people in Alaska and Igiugig that's producing power to their grid right now. And I think we're going to see more of these small scale devices in places where power is incredibly meaningful. Even if it doesn't sound like a lot from a megawatt or gigawatt perspective.David RobertsThere's sort of bulk energy. Like we just need a lot of energy. But then there's also these, as you say, these local sort of resilience benefits and these benefits specifically to a lot of vulnerable communities. Maybe just say a little bit more about that sort of how you envision hydro working. Maybe not at a large energy scale, but in some of these, but like in this community in Alaska, that's quite significant for them to have steady power. So talk about that a little bit.Jennifer GarsonI think it's a story for both hydropower and marine renewable energy that there are parts of our United States and parts of the world that they need to look to their waters in order to actually provide power, whether that's because of the seasonality or available resources. And we've been working with a number of communities, actually through a program called our Energy Transitions Initiative Partnership Project, where rather than say, here's a solution that you should have, maybe it's marine or hydro, but working with these communities to say what are your power and energy needs? And what are the types of systems that can get you to 100% renewables and off diesel dependency? And many communities that we're working with in Maine, the Pacific Northwest and Alaska in particular are looking at marine energy and small hydro as their pathways to releasing dependency from diesel generators or from really high cost other forms of energy.And even though these are kilowatts or megawatts, it's huge.David RobertsYeah, just to sort of put an exclamation point on that, you're talking about the sort of economics overall. But if you look at the economics specifically in these local situations, like diesel is gross, it's very expensive, it pollutes like crazy.Jennifer GarsonNot only that, it's the cost, right? And right now, the last couple of years, the price vulnerability of some of our more vulnerable communities in the United States are so impacted by diesel going up to prices that are literally unprecedented. And if you're a small community, how do you absorb that?David RobertsYeah, getting steady, predictable, just the predictableness of it, the predictable price of it. It's hard to put a value on that. That's very valuable in these local contexts.Jennifer GarsonIt is. And because if you are already paying a dollar, $52 a kilowatt hour, even if we're developing solutions that come in at say, 50-60 cents a kilowatt hour, that's still a substantial price savings, more predictable power and we have better health outcomes, better localized impacts. And

Subscribe to Bad Faith on Patreon to instantly unlock this episode and our full premium episode library: http://patreon.com/badfaithpodcast This week, Briahna asks experts pointed, pragmatic questions about how to nationalize the energy sector. With the public discourse centered on high gas prices and the climate crisis is looming bigger than ever, it seems odd that the left is silent on a solution that could deliver big benefits to direct consumers and, well, everyone who enjoys a habitable earth. What does the Tennessee Valley Authority teach us about state-owned energy projects? What should we learn from the Obama-era nationalization of GM? We've done before, other countries, like Sweden, do it all the time, so why is the idea of "nationalization" such a bete noir -- especially among the left? Matt Bruenig, returning to the podcast, is the founder of the People's Policy Project think tank. Johanna Bozuwa, co-manager of the climate and energy program at Democracy Collaborative, has written a detailed paper on how we can actually "nationalize this."  Subscribe to Bad Faith on YouTube to access our full video library. Find Bad Faith on Twitter (@badfaithpod)and Instagram (@badfaithpod). Produced by Ben Dalton (@wbend). Theme by Nick Thorburn (@nickfromislands).